# Have you reverted back to Snow Leopard? Why?



## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

Thought that I would pop this threadso that others can see why others reverted.

I reverted last night. The constant Wifi dropping finally got to me. Since me and my neighbors share a connection a cable is not the answer.


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

Digikid said:


> Thought that I would pop this threadso that others can see why others reverted.
> 
> I reverted last night. The constant Wifi dropping finally got to me. Since me and my neighbors share a connection a cable is not the answer.


Then where is the router? Your house or his house? Or is the router halfway between your houses?


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

Tech Elementz said:


> Then where is the router? Your house or his house? Or is the router halfway between your houses?


Apartment Complex, Router is a DLink dir-655 and it is essentially right behind the wall behind my desk in my neighbors place.

It is not the router though. It IS Lion. Now I have not dropped any connection plus nothing else drops connections. Just Lion. I will upgrade back when I hear that Apple has fixed the issue....which is well documented on Apples forums as well.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Different router, problem likely fixed. A nice AirPort Extreme instead of a D-Link.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

but if the problem vanished as soon as he switched back to 10.6 you cant really blame the router...


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## Flipstar (Nov 7, 2004)

Wi-fi works fine for me.


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

Lars said:


> Different router, problem likely fixed. A nice AirPort Extreme instead of a D-Link.


Wrong. Nothing wrong with Router. Router was reset and everything. Problem is Lion...not the hardware



broad said:


> but if the problem vanished as soon as he switched back to 10.6 you cant really blame the router...


Bingo!


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Digikid said:


> Wrong. Nothing wrong with Router. Router was reset and everything. Problem is Lion...not the hardware


I'm well aware, thanks. What I'm saying is that Lion plays well with an Apple AirPort Extreme. Just sayin'.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

I never left Leopard (Mac Pro) and Snow Leopard (Macbook Pro) so no need to revert.Lion doesn't really offer any must-haves or compelling nice-to-haves to merit the inconvenience of doing an upgrade on the two Intel machines I have that are smooth running and stable under 10.5 and 10.6.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Digikid said:


> Wrong. Nothing wrong with Router. Router was reset and everything. Problem is Lion...not the hardware
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo!


Ah, you have committed the old fallacy of "POST HOC; ERGO PROPTER HOC." In other words,"after this; therefore because of this." You assume that Lion was causing your d-Link router to fail because your router works fine in Snow Leopard. That's like saying that since you remembered where you left your keys after you stubbed your toe, it was stubbing your toe that caused you to remember where you left them. It may be true, or it may not. Could be a coincidence. If Lion causes problems with WiFi routers, then what you say should be true of all WiFi routers, or at least true of all D-link WiFi routers with the same model number as yours, or it is just a freak coincidence, or something else was actually responsible and it just _seems _like Lion was the cause. 

POST HOC; ERGO PROPTER HOC has been used to misdiagnose problems for thousands of years, so be careful of assuming that you've got it all figured out here. Your router could still fail in Snow Leopard unexpectedly, or a different router could work just fine in Lion. Lion may still suck, but the "preponderance of evidence" argument you alluded to from other forums would be the more convincing way to go.


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## MX-V (Feb 2, 2010)

Main reason I reverted is the abomination called Mission Control.

Nothing Lion offers that I actually need, so I'm back to SL. Still have Lion on another partition, waiting to see if Apple's going to make it right in the future.


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

MX-V said:


> Nothing Lion offers that I actually need, so I'm back to SL.


Thats the reason I am not upgrading anymore of my computers, there is nothing in there that I find makes my life easier. I have upgraded my i5 iMac and it all works fine, but its just a big 'meh' for me. I wont be upgrading my MacBook Pro, or any work computers for a while, or till I have to lest I be obsolete. 

One of my big concerns was our network printers at work, but they all work fine in Lion, I did a test using my moms macbook pro as it was not a crucial machine if printing did not work like the switch from Leopard to Snow Leopard, and then 10.6.8 update.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

fjnmusic said:


> Ah, you have committed the old fallacy of "POST HOC; ERGO PROPTER HOC." In other words,"after this; therefore because of this." You assume that Lion was causing your d-Link router to fail because your router works fine in Snow Leopard. That's like saying that since you remembered where you left your keys after you stubbed your toe, it was stubbing your toe that caused you to remember where you left them. It may be true, or it may not. Could be a coincidence. If Lion causes problems with WiFi routers, then what you say should be true of all WiFi routers, or at least true of all D-link WiFi routers with the same model number as yours, or it is just a freak coincidence, or something else was actually responsible and it just _seems _like Lion was the cause.
> 
> POST HOC; ERGO PROPTER HOC has been used to misdiagnose problems for thousands of years, so be careful of assuming that you've got it all figured out here. Your router could still fail in Snow Leopard unexpectedly, or a different router could work just fine in Lion. Lion may still suck, but the "preponderance of evidence" argument you alluded to from other forums would be the more convincing way to go.


i would agree with you if he hadnt gone back to 10.6 and reverted to expected behaviour with the same router. same computer, same conditions, same router with the only difference between "functioning" and "not functioning" being the OS the OS is almost certainly at fault. granted there could be some outside factor (interference caused by his neighbour starting up a large hadron collider while he was attempting to connect with 10.7 installed, monkeys on the loose in his neighbours apartment covering the router's antenna with their little monkey paws while he was attempting to connect with 10.7 etc etc etc) but for the most part in this situation the OS is almost certainly to blame

your example also doesn't work because once you stub your toe there is no way to "un-stub" it to see if you can try remembering without stubbing it again, which is essentially what he has done by going back to 10.6 and seeing the problem vanish


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Haven't reverted to SL, but have been tempted due to the overall sluggishness that I continue to see in day to day use. 

That said, I guess I'm in the minority who doesn't actually mind Mission Control. I find it's a vast improvement over Spaces, which I never quite got the hang of.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Mission Control looks much better than Spaces to me. My main machine isn't Lion yet since I was awaiting on some updates (which arrived over the weekend, yay!) but I'm looking forward to Mission Control on my main machine.

That said, I hope they figure out how to make use of full screen apps on multiple monitors.


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

It's funny how most devs who tested the Lion beta did not seem to complain this much... Quite odd...


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Tech Elementz said:


> It's funny how most devs who tested the Lion beta did not seem to complain this much... Quite odd...


because they could careless about the OS as long as their products worked.. LOL - plus they were under NDA


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## Garry (Jan 27, 2002)

I don't really see a need to revert back to SL.. add me to the minority that finds mission control more productive for me than spaces and expose. The more I work with lion the more I like it. Versions is quirky for iWork, but that's what keyboard shortcuts are for.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

broad said:


> ...your example also doesn't work because once you stub your toe there is no way to "un-stub" it to see if you can try remembering without stubbing it again, which is essentially what he has done by going back to 10.6 and seeing the problem vanish


Fair enough. How about when I put this ring on my finger, the sun disappeared behind a cloud. When I took the ring off, the sun came out again. Or the Monty Python example: 

The people have nothing to eat, my lord.
Well it's not my fault they haven't eaten! What about those juniper berries over there?
A miracle! A miracle! He has made the juniper bushes fruitful by his word!

After this, therefore because of this. Because two events are closely linked in time, we mistakenly believe they are connected. In my daughter's class, a kid farted and the fire alarm went off. Lion may be the source of the WiFi problem or it may not. Further investigation is needed, or at least a sh**load of anecdotal evidence from other users who experience the same phenomena. As C Lo says, ain't that some sh.


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## fellfromtree (May 18, 2005)

I'll wait for OS X Maru
Mac OS X Maru


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2011)

I have wifi issues with Lion and my Airport Extreme. It's not isolated to the router, it's a Lion bug without a doubt, LOTS of people have been having issues with it. When wifi drops for me the only way I can get it back most times is to reboot my MBP.


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

fjnmusic said:


> Fair enough. How about when I put this ring on my finger, the sun disappeared behind a cloud. When I took the ring off, the sun came out again. Or the Monty Python example:
> 
> The people have nothing to eat, my lord.
> Well it's not my fault they haven't eaten! What about those juniper berries over there?
> ...


There is PLENTY of proof.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3191630?start=0&tstart=0

Note the right hand column with MASSIVE topics with the same concern.

Now....with all due respect lets get back to the topic at hand. Not my Wifi issues.....which BTW have NOT dropped since reverting.


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## seyDoggy (Aug 13, 2011)

I, for one, couldn't wait to drop Snow Leopard like a dirty diaper. You guys are having your router issues now? I have one of the original Airport Extremes that, since the day snow leopard was released, never held a wired connection and rarely held a wifi one. We complained over and over for more then a year--ae users filled the apple forums with complaints. They finally issued an ae firmware update to address some of the issues... after Lion was announced. 

And don't get me started on the graphics issues that we MacPro1,1, nvidea 7300gt users had for close to a year with no fix or even acknowledgment that there was a problem. 

Now that I'm on Lion, I am happier then Oprah with a bag of doughnuts. It all works! Everything works! And it's all fast!

So revert? No thanks.


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## equisol (Jan 12, 2008)

Reverting back, no way, I used to have 4 spaces open at all times, with an average of 3 - 4 apps in each, well, mission control is simper, more efficient and the rest of Lion just plain works. Had no issue whatsoever with WI-FI, no drops, but I am also using a Airport extreme, and all machines have fixed IP addresses. Lion is solid, but I have to admit it needs some getting used to and an open mind to progress. I hear lots of people complaining about the 'reverse scrolling' well, it is more natural thinking of it, no-one has complained about it on the iPhone, or iPad, but they complain about it on the laptop or desktop. Who came up with pushing the mouse up to scroll down in the first place, some one thinking backwards obviously. And the gesture, great functionality, and a huge time saver. Apple did it right ..... again.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

equisol said:


> I hear lots of people complaining about the 'reverse scrolling' well, it is more natural thinking of it, no-one has complained about it on the iPhone, or iPad, but they complain about it on the laptop or desktop. Who came up with pushing the mouse up to scroll down in the first place, some one thinking backwards obviously. And the gesture, great functionality, and a huge time saver. Apple did it right ..... again.


Interestingly, Apple was a key proponent in the scrolling thing. Not necessarily the inventor but, having one of the first GUIs for personal computers helped them to set the standard. We scroll with a downward motion due to years of pulling down the "elevator" on the side of longer documents. Move the mouse over to the right of the window, click and hold on the "elevator", move downward (whether spinning a trackball, swiping a trackpad or toggling the silly little eraser head on IBM laptops). "Scrolling down" with an upward motion makes sense when you can touch the document (literally or figuratively as on an iPad).

It will just take some getting used to or turn it off. No big deal on this one.

As for me, I have purchased SL but have not bothered with it yet and may not for some time.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

Macified said:


> As for me, I have purchased *SL* but have not bothered with it yet and may not for some time.


Can we assume you meant "you've purchased *Lion*?
Or are you actually 2 generations back with OS X?


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

jamesB said:


> Can we assume you meant "you've purchased *Lion*?
> Or are you actually 2 generations back with OS X?


Oops. My bad. Purchased Lion but haven't bothered "upgrading".


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Digikid said:


> There is PLENTY of proof.
> 
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3191630?start=0&tstart=0
> 
> ...


You win. I concede. Carry on. :clap:


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

Upgraded to lion the day it came available and love it. It works flawless on my mid 2009 macbook pro. No wifi issues here, or any other funkiness.


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## garf1108 (May 30, 2006)

Just purchased it and playing with it on my MBP - no problems encountered so far. Haven't upgraded my other machines so far. A test run.


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

Guys. Please read the title and obey. If you wanna make a thread that says that Lion works well for you then do so. Otherwise do not post unless you have reverted BACK to Snow Leopard please.

Thank you.


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

macintosh doctor said:


> because they could careless about the OS as long as their products worked.. LOL - plus they were under NDA


Fair enough, but what about other consumers who got access to the beta?


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

Digikid said:


> Guys. Please read the title and obey. If you wanna make a thread that says that Lion works well for you then do so. Otherwise do not post unless you have reverted BACK to Snow Leopard please.
> 
> Thank you.


Come on Digi... Don't be a Communist poster..... Be a Democratic one...


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Digikid said:


> Apartment Complex, Router is a DLink dir-655 and it is essentially right behind the wall behind my desk in my neighbors place.
> 
> It is not the router though. It IS Lion. Now I have not dropped any connection plus nothing else drops connections. Just Lion. I will upgrade back when I hear that Apple has fixed the issue....which is well documented on Apples forums as well.


I know with that router and iPhone 4 it would never keep the connection it would always drop out but wouldn't with my mac on SL. I haven't upgraded yet. As soon as I upgraded the router the problem was gone. That router has been a headache for many people I know.

So Apple may have changed something so that Lion acts the same way. I would bet if you upgrade your router problem is gone.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Digikid said:


> Guys. Please read the title and obey. If you wanna make a thread that says that Lion works well for you then do so. Otherwise do not post unless you have reverted BACK to Snow Leopard please.
> 
> Thank you.


We are just telling you your reasons may not be valid. The problem is the router trust me I had that one and tossed it.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

Joker Eh said:


> We are just telling you your reasons may not be valid. The problem is the router trust me I had that one and tossed it.


so he should trust you, one person on a messageboard, rather then using his own observations (using the same hardware, same router, only difference being the OS between functional and non-functional) and the experiences of the 36 pages of posts on the apple forums with other people suffering from the same issue? 

you tell me...does that make a lot of sense to you?


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

broad said:


> so he should trust you, one person on a messageboard, rather then using his own observations (using the same hardware, same router, only difference being the OS between functional and non-functional) and the experiences of the 36 pages of posts on the apple forums with other people suffering from the same issue?
> 
> you tell me...does that make a lot of sense to you?


Yes. Its not just me who has had issues with that router. Change the router to a new one and the problem goes away. Don't want to change it then keep doing what your doing.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

you're entirely missing the point though...the router was working fine *for him* prior to lion, ergo he doesn't need to change the router. you say "and the problem goes away"...he had no "problem" until installing 10.7, and since reverting to 10.6 he again has "no problem" 

think about this logically for a second and tell me where the problem is

the router works *for him*. it might not have worked *for you* but it does for him. 

i dont understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Digikid said:


> Guys. Please read the title and obey. If you wanna make a thread that says that Lion works well for you then do so. Otherwise do not post unless you have reverted BACK to Snow Leopard please.
> 
> Thank you.


How about if you've never left Snow Leopard because you're concerned by of all the things others have said about Lion?


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

broad said:


> you're entirely missing the point though...the router was working fine *for him* prior to lion, ergo he doesn't need to change the router. you say "and the problem goes away"...he had no "problem" until installing 10.7, and since reverting to 10.6 he again has "no problem"
> 
> think about this logically for a second and tell me where the problem is
> 
> ...


What you don't understand there is a solution to the problem. Don't want to upgrade and fix the problem that not just me are telling him the problem is then he will always have a problem. 

Myself and 8 others had his router, I myself has 2, one at home and one at office we all found out we were having the same problem and we changed routers, since then no problems. 

Offering solution (buy new router) doesn't like, oh well. :yawn: Simple concept to grasp.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Joker Eh said:


> What you don't understand there is a solution to the problem. Don't want to upgrade and fix the problem that not just me are telling him the problem is then he will always have a problem.
> 
> Myself and 8 others had his router, I myself has 2, one at home and one at office we all found out we were having the same problem and we changed routers, since then no problems.
> 
> Offering solution (buy new router) doesn't like, oh well. :yawn: Simple concept to grasp.


You can add me to the list. My D-link sucked as well. No problems when I switched to Apple Extreme. Five years ago.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> You can add me to the list. My D-link sucked as well. No problems when I switched to Apple Extreme. Five years ago.


Exactly the same for me, Good=bye D-Link, hello Extreme, good-bye issues.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

Joker Eh said:


> What you don't understand there is a solution to the problem. Don't want to upgrade and fix the problem that not just me are telling him the problem is then he will always have a problem.
> 
> Myself and 8 others had his router, I myself has 2, one at home and one at office we all found out we were having the same problem and we changed routers, since then no problems.
> 
> Offering solution (buy new router) doesn't like, oh well. :yawn: Simple concept to grasp.


im not denying that just about any airport product is better than that router, thats not the point at all. the point of this discussion is that there was no problem using 10.6. the problem only occurred when upgrading to 10.7. upon going back to 10.6 the problem vanished. 

are you able to comprehend how the problem, *in this case* is not the router? shall i draw you a picture or something? explain it in klingon?


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

broad said:


> im not denying that just about any airport product is better than that router, thats not the point at all. the point of this discussion is that there was no problem using 10.6. the problem only occurred when upgrading to 10.7. upon going back to 10.6 the problem vanished.
> 
> are you able to comprehend how the problem, *in this case* is not the router? shall i draw you a picture or something? explain it in klingon?


Yes draw me a picture. :clap: :clap:


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Joker Eh said:


> Yes draw me a picture. :clap: :clap:


I can already see the picture in my mind but I wouldn't mind the Klingon translation please.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

broad said:


> im not denying that just about any airport product is better than that router, thats not the point at all. the point of this discussion is that there was no problem using 10.6. the problem only occurred when upgrading to 10.7. upon going back to 10.6 the problem vanished.
> 
> are you able to comprehend how the problem, *in this case* is not the router? shall i draw you a picture or something? explain it in klingon?


Post hoc; ergo propter hoc. 
Klingon Latin.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

im going to be interested to see whether digikid goes back to 10.7 now that 10.7.1 is out. and if it does if it fixes his issues

im also going to be interested to hear what the "dude just buy a new router" crew will say if that is, in fact, what happens.


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

Yeah.....I already am working on my "I told you so" speech draft.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

broad said:


> im also going to be interested to hear what the "dude just buy a new router" crew will say if that is, in fact, what happens.


We'll say it's no longer necessary. 

To be fair, we weren't wrong -- with Lion 10.7.0, it was either the router or Lion that had to go. The user can choose which. (And the OP chose Lion.)


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

Well it looks like my choice was the correct one. the .1 Update has fixed my Wifi issues.

The fault was Lion.....NOT the router....as I suspected all along.

Told you so.  < Had to say it.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

I had to use SL last week and thought it felt outdated and clunky. Using Time Machine for wifi and no issues at all.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

Digikid;1122421as I suspected all along.[/QUOTE said:


> as would anyone else with a basic understanding of troubleshooting theory


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

broad said:


> as would anyone else with 1/2 a brain and a basic understanding of troubleshooting theory


You have taken this to a personal level. You may think you are better than anyone else but those who brag having nothing to brag about.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

you're right. off the cuff remark.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2011)

Lars said:


> We'll say it's no longer necessary.
> 
> To be fair, we weren't wrong -- with Lion 10.7.0, it was either the router or Lion that had to go. The user can choose which. (And the OP chose Lion.)


Changing up the router wouldn't have helped, I had the same problems with my Airport Extreme and Lion .0 release. So far the .1 hasn't dropped wifi yet.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

broad said:


> as would anyone else with a basic understanding of troubleshooting theory


Actually, that's the whole point. Anyone with a basic understanding of troubleshooting theory would be careful not to jump to conclusions. Post hoc; ergo propter hoc. Just because event B occurs after event A does not mean event A caused event B. It may have, or it may be a coincidence. Ever have a piece of equipment break down again after you thought you fixed it?


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

mguertin said:


> Changing up the router wouldn't have helped, I had the same problems with my Airport Extreme and Lion .0 release. So far the .1 hasn't dropped wifi yet.


Interesting - at work we had at least 4 machines running 10.7 connected to an AirPort Extreme problem-free.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

fjnmusic said:


> Actually, that's the whole point. Anyone with a basic understanding of troubleshooting theory would be careful not to jump to conclusions. Post hoc; ergo propter hoc. Just because event B occurs after event A does not mean event A caused event B. It may have, or it may be a coincidence. Ever have a piece of equipment break down again after you thought you fixed it?


uggh...this is like trying to reason with a tree. it wasnt a coincidence as proven by the fact that when he reverted to 10.6 the issue went away. 

when you revert back to the state the system was in before event A took place (with no other changes being made) and the issue vanishes it is most likely that event A was the cause of the issue. sure, if you wanted to be 100% sure you would repeat event A and event B (install 10.7, see the problem, go back to 10.6, see problem disappear) a few times to see if the same unexpected behaviour (the wifi dropping) occurs, but his experience combined with the glut of other people suffering from the same issue would, for me personally anyway, satisfy me that event A (installing 10.7) was the cause of the issue. 

if you want to talk about silly abstract concepts like kids farting and fire alarms ringing then your position makes sense...thats not what were talking about here.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

Lars said:


> Interesting - at work we had at least 4 machines running 10.7 connected to an AirPort Extreme problem-free.


i havent seen it on anything of mine running 10.7 either


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## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

My MBP is a mid 2010. Broadcom Wifi chip.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2011)

Lars said:


> Interesting - at work we had at least 4 machines running 10.7 connected to an AirPort Extreme problem-free.


Probably depends on the machine more than the router given that info. The one I had issues with is a 2011 MBP 13".


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

I don't mean to be smug... Well actually I do.... 

I haven't updated to Lion, because as I have said in numerous posts I always wait until .3 or .4 before upgrading as it saves a ton of headaches.... this whole thread proves my point.

I was happy with SL before Lion and until the kinks are worked out and even if and when they are I see nothing for me in Lion that I *need* that SL can't provide... eye candy aside, which lasts all of about, well, maybe a day or so... 

iCloud? Isn't here yet... iTunes Match? Isn't here yet... so what is the rush??

I will take stability over eye candy and questionable "improvements" every day of the week...

Sorry for the trouble all the early adopters have experienced, but I and others have warned about the potential problems with early adoption.... for me and many others it just isn't worth the hassle... 

I can't think of one feature of Lion that is a "must have" over SL... especially if up time is important to you or means money in your pocket, as time is money for many of us.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2011)

The only reason I'm running Lion is that I have to so that when clients have problems with it I can sort it out for them  My main workstation likely won't see Lion until I have no choice.


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