# Apple Tax



## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

2TB SATA Hard Disk Drive Kit for Mac Pro - Apple Store (Canada)

Worth $195

1TB SATA Hard Disk Drive Kit for Mac Pro - Apple Store (Canada)

$100

640GB SATA Hard Disk Drive Kit for Mac Pro - Apple Store (Canada)

$60

ATI Radeon HD 4870 Graphics Upgrade Kit for Mac Pro (Early 2009 or Early 2008) - Apple Store (Canada)

$130

Has gotten ridiculous.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

Good for you? You've established several times that you have plenty of contempt for Apple and their prices. Harping on it doesn't change it, nor does it accomplish anything.


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## Mr.Tickles (Mar 25, 2009)

So go buy it from somebody else like the rest of us do. 

What's the problem?

Do you automatically lose respect for Safeway because they charge $4 for a loaf of sourdough that you KNOW costs $2 at Costco?


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## Silv (Mar 28, 2008)

If Horatio Caine (CSI Miami) was a Mac user, his one-liner would be

"Trolls, don't feed'em"

as he (puts on|takes off) his sunglasses.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

silv said:


> "trolls, don't feed'em"


+1


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

Yes, I can buy everything from someone else, but how in the world can Apple say: Hey everyone, lets charge 600 dollars for a 2 TB Hd, More then double the marked up price on comparable websites. Just *Why?*


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Some people will only buy brand names and Apple has a good one.


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## johnnyspade (Aug 24, 2007)

Chas3 said:


> Yes, I can buy everything from someone else, but how in the world can Apple say: Hey everyone, lets charge 600 dollars for a 2 TB Hd, More then double the marked up price on comparable websites. Just *Why?*


It's what the market will bear, I suppose. If they weren't selling any of them at that price then that price would come down and I think many people make buying decisions on more than just price anyway. As a consumer you have the ultimate say in that if you don't like the price, quality, colour, whatever ... you don't have to buy it.


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*think of it this way*

think of it this way. the only people who pay the inflated prices are buyers for large corporations who don't really care about the price and who just order things. i know, i've done it. normal people look around and buy things for a reasonable price in exchange for a brief internet search. the first group is paying lots of money to apple, thus subsidizing the good normal priced stuff the rest of us are buying. to my way of thinking this is a good thing. so shhhh... stop going on about it! those guys with too much money will catch on and it will cost the rest of us... shhhhh...
he he


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Many retailers and manufacturers do this. It's taking advantage of the uninformed market that sees comfort in buying it from Apple rather then finding their own. Apple may have gratuitous mark up on some items but it's a common practice. 

Example: 

BestBuy: Western Digital 250GB 2.5" Laptop Internal Hard Drive = 119.99

Canada Computers (local store that specializes in parts etc..): Western Digital Scorpio Blue(WD2500BEVT) 250GB SATA 5400 RPM 8MB Cache 2.5" Laptop Hard Disk (OEM) = 55.99

BestBuy: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium = 229.99

Canada Computers: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium = 119.99

Btw: this Apple mark up on components and upgrades actually allows independent dealers to make a little bit of money by being able to offer better pricing - which is good in a way.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

BestBuy/FutureShop etc all do this as well with cables and TV mounts etc...there isn't much markup on electronics these days so they push their HDMI cables and warranties to make profit. In most cases you can just go to Monoprice etc and get the same cable for pennies to the dollar. 

Now while I don't mind this practice as it means as an informed shopper I get the best of both worlds buying the items at low prices...but with the release of the 21.5 and 27" iMac's we can no longer simply swap out the hard drive like you could in past which I really don't like at all. Granted its not supposed to be a user upgradeable part but it sucks that I can't swap out the 500Gb Hitachi drive with the 2TB version that is a build to order option on some iMac's.


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## blizzack01 (Oct 21, 2007)

John Clay said:


> Good for you? You've established several times that you have plenty of contempt for Apple and their prices. Harping on it doesn't change it, nor does it accomplish anything.


Well, it seemed to work for new car prices (vs US), and iphone data charges from Rogers, etc... if people didn't make a fuss and bring attention to it, nothing would have happened.


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## Commodus (May 10, 2005)

Part of the problem is that Apple sets the upgrade prices at the time the system is new... and rarely if ever changes them until the next update. Hence why a Radeon HD 4870 costs well out of proportion to what it does now: it's based on the early 2009 worth of that card, not early 2010. Similar idea for 2TB drives (although these are newer, so Apple has less of an excuse).


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Darn.... I thought this was a thread about Apple jacks.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Chas, do you own a Mac? Please ... sell it.

You can use the money as your first payment on your new BMW. Or Hundai Accent.
And then, you can populate the BMW or Hundai forums, complaining about the prices the dealer wants for floor mats.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

MACinist, careful on the Win 7 Home Premium from Canada Computers - you missed the fine print:



> Must be purchased with system or qualifing hardware


This is the system builder's edition of Win7 - designed for people who are building and selling PCs. The builder provides the support, MS does not, and the OS is not transferrable. You can go into CC and buy it - but they will make you buy a hard drive or RAM or some other internal hardware to go along with it. They may have started enforcing this recently; I bought exactly that edition of Win7 from them before Christmas with no other purchase, but my sister went in about 3 weeks ago and they told her she'd have to buy qualifying hardware as well. As she didn't need anything, she ordered it for more or less the same price online from NewEgg.ca who didn't require any hardware purchase.

And you need to compare apples and apples on the hard drives too - you've got Best Buy's listing for the PATA/IDE 250 GB Scorpio Blue up against the SATA 250 GB Scorpio Blue at Canada Computers. The PATA model at Canada computers is $91.99 - still $30 cheaper, but certainly not as bad as you implied. Plus, the drive at Best Buy comes in the retail box with a software CD, guide and a cable. The one at CC is a bare drive. The fact that you really don't NEED the stuff in the box (or the box) is moot - bare drives are always cheaper, and SATA is almost always substantially cheaper than PATA now because PATA is a dead/dying interface that no new computers are using.

Canada Computers - Hard Drives > Notebook Drives > 2.5" IDE Drives : Western Digital Scorpio Blue (WD2500BEVE) 250GB PATA 5400 RPM 8MB Cache 2.5" Laptop Hard Disk (OEM).

As for Apple's nutty prices on hard drives etc., you only have to look at the questions that are posted with each of the items to understand who buys this stuff. The lack of knowledge is quite breathtaking, and Apple isn't helping it any by implying that the SATA drives they're selling _only_ work in certain models of MacPros. At least half the questions about the 1 and 2 TB drives are from people looking to upgrade their MacBook drives, apparently unaware of the size differences between laptop and desktop drives. 

Andrew, you can swap out the HD on the new iMacs, but it's not for the faint of heart, isn't considered a user swappable part and for all I know, voids your warranty if you try it yourself. How do you upgrade the hard drive in the Aluminum iMac models? What type of hard drive do they support? @ EveryMac.com

There are a few Macs where the $65 installation fee and the slightly higher HD prices at Carbon (or equivalent) are probably worth it. I know my 2007 MBP will be making a trip down there soon - disassembling the entire thing, including messing with thin case shells that can be easily bent if you're not careful is just too daunting. Even for me - and I've taken apart the original iMacs to install new optical drives etc. and am generally pretty fearless, given a good set of instructions and a few screwdrivers*. 

*Not the ones you drink...those are for _afterwards_.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

gordguide said:


> Chas, do you own a Mac? Please ... sell it.
> 
> You can use the money as your first payment on your new BMW. Or Hundai Accent.
> And then, you can populate the BMW or Hundai forums, complaining about the prices the dealer wants for floor mats.


Check out my signature, and I'm in the Car Business. I can't believe people are actually accepting that apple sells a 2Tb drive for $600 . Also, a 4870 was never $419.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

:yawn:


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... I can't believe people are actually accepting that apple sells a 2Tb drive for $600. ..."

I would bet that's because no-one here would ever buy a 2TB BTO drive from the Apple Store. Or from DELL's BTO store, which is the same. Neither should you. It's not like you can't get one somewhere else (as you obviously know). The "problem" is a mirage. It affects no-one.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

As someone already said i think Apple sets their upgrade prices when they negotiate guaranteed stock from suppliers (which happens when they upgrade their product) so they always have access to ram & hard drives.

The advantage is they won't go out of stock on parts they need, the disadvantage is their prices are high (although in theory on occasion it might help them if ram prices were to skyrocket...which has happened a few times in the past). And actually right now their price on laptop ram is actually pretty reasonable. Their hard drive prices have pretty much have always sucked.

While i fully agree the price on apple video cards is outrageous and wrong, it's not quite accurate to say they're the same as a PC counterpart. They have different EFI (which admittedly is possible to flash) and in the case of the 4870 has a mini-display port (which may or may not be an advantage). But my point being you're not comparing the EXACT same product, so a price difference should be expected.... but not at the extent to which apple charges.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

> Andrew, you can swap out the HD on the new iMacs, but it's not for the faint of heart, isn't considered a user swappable part and for all I know, voids your warranty if you try it yourself. How do you upgrade the hard drive in the Aluminum iMac models? What type of hard drive do they support? @ EveryMac.com


Actually you can't. If you follow the link to OWC's site and read the comments you'll find out that recently Apple changed something (likely the firmware in the drives) as you can no longer just match up the manufacturer types like you used to be able to do. I've tried installing a 2TB hitachi drive which is a larger version of the drive that came pre installed and the pin's match up perfectly but after 10 minutes the system fans ramp up to 6500 rpm. Its a common complaint these days and at this time there's no fix for it. The only work around seems to be shorting out the pins on the temp sensor cable but I'm not about to do that!


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

The thing is fellow ehmacer's, even though I always buy my parts externally it is completely outrageous that apple is charging this much for their third party products, I'm not even going to delve into how much they charge for their computers (Mac Mini anyone), but I just believe its unfair that Apple Customer's constantly get the shaft when buying there products, especially if they are uneducated. I have stated before that Apples Video Card situation in general is just ridiculous, but thats for another day. I still own and use a Mac, but got smart and decided not to spend $3000 dollars on a Mac Pro that my current computer outperforms. Sure, it would be nice if Apple brought down their prices, but since they still seem to be raking in the cash, it doesn't seem like that period of time will occur any time soon since they still seem to be raking in the cash. And, I'm a Mac OS X user, and still heartily support their OS, and all of their machines are extremely well manufactured, I can say that.

AKA

Users Face: :yikes:
Apple: :greedy:


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

> Actually you can't. If you follow the link to OWC's site and read the comments you'll find out that recently Apple changed something (likely the firmware in the drives) as you can no longer just match up the manufacturer types like you used to be able to do. I've tried installing a 2TB hitachi drive which is a larger version of the drive that came pre installed and the pin's match up perfectly but after 10 minutes the system fans ramp up to 6500 rpm. Its a common complaint these days and at this time there's no fix for it. The only work around seems to be shorting out the pins on the temp sensor cable but I'm not about to do that!


Sorry - I hadn't read the blog postings, just got as far as OWC having a list of compatible drives. Yikes. That's not good news. It would give me serious pause if I was considering an iMac. What the heck happens if you've got one that's out of warranty and the drive dies? One has to assume that Apple-authorized service providers will be able to install new HDs - though I think it's ridiculous that Apple took this route. I suppose there hasn't been much noise about this issue yet because they're still pretty new machines.

IMHO, RAM and HDs should ALWAYS be user replaceable/upgradeable. Hard drives are the single hardware component most likely to fail or require upgrading. Surely the brilliant minds at Apple can figure out how to keep them accessible AND replaceable.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

The out of warranty issues is on my mind as well with my new machine. Hopefully by then we'll have a solution to the issue.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

Andrew Pratt said:


> The out of warranty issues is on my mind as well with my new machine. Hopefully by then we'll have a solution to the issue.


What a downer. That really sucks for new iMac owners.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Chas3 said:


> The thing is fellow ehmacer's, even though I always buy my parts externally it is completely outrageous that apple is charging this much for their third party products...


Really...? This is such a non-issue I am quite surprised that you are even bothered by it (especially seeing as you have no qualms at doing whatever you want to do regardless of an EULA.) 

Apple charges a price for a product and you are free to buy it from them or go elsewhere. Period. It is called capitalism, time to get used to/over it.


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## Manatus (May 11, 2009)

Andrew Pratt said:


> Actually you can't. If you follow the link to OWC's site and read the comments you'll find out that recently Apple changed something (likely the firmware in the drives) as you can no longer just match up the manufacturer types like you used to be able to do. I've tried installing a 2TB hitachi drive which is a larger version of the drive that came pre installed and the pin's match up perfectly but after 10 minutes the system fans ramp up to 6500 rpm. Its a common complaint these days and at this time there's no fix for it. The only work around seems to be shorting out the pins on the temp sensor cable but I'm not about to do that!


Sorry for not understanding, but do you mean that you can't just install whatever HD you want in a new iMac? If that's the gist of what you're saying, that seems bizarre...


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

That's correct. It used to be that Apple used an external temp sensor so it was easy to swap out the drive and just stick the sensor back on. Then with the new models they went to using the internal drive sensor so you had to match up the manufacturer so the pins would match between the old and new drive...then at some point recently something changed and that no longer works...likely some sort of custom firmware in the drives. There's reports that you can still use an external temp sensor if you can find one somewhere but that's not likely a viable solution for most people.


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## Manatus (May 11, 2009)

Wow, that's surprising.. I know the iMacs are designed as an all-in-one and therefore extremely difficult for the average user to upgrade, but it seems very odd to completely take that away. To be honest I'm already debating whether my next computer will be a Mac, as I would find it difficult to just buy a computer and leave it alone until it's time to buy a new one (and a Mac Pro is somewhat out of my price range).


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Andrew Pratt said:


> Then with the new models they went to using the internal drive sensor so you had to match up the manufacturer so the pins would match between the old and new drive...*then at some point recently something changed and that no longer works...*


Untrue. The 21.5" and 27" iMacs are the _only_ iMacs where Apple is using the drive's built-in temp sensor; all iMacs previous to the 21.5"/27" iMacs used stick-on temp sensors that could be swapped between hard drives, meaning there were never iMacs that used the built-in temp sensors of their hard drives PRIOR to the new 21.5"/27" iMacs which do. 

Your statement is suggesting that there were 2 generations of iMacs that used built-in temp sensors on their drives - the first generation that was a non-issue when it came to swapping HD's, and then the next generation where it suddenly became an issue - this is untrue. The 21.5"/27" iMacs are the only iMacs that have begun using the drive's internal temp sensor.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Further more: Proprietary Cable can put the brakes on upgrading Late '09 iMacs. | Other World Computing Blog.

Seems that if you replace the pre-existing brand HD with the same brand replacement, it's a non-issue. It's when you switch HD brands that it become a problem. Thus, replace like for like, brand wise. (i.e; Seagate with Seagate.)

EDIT: Confirmed. Hard drives must be replaced on a like-for-like basis, brand wise, as I had suspected. If you swap brands, the temp sensor cable will require replacement.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Lars swapping like brands doesn't work anymore....read the comments on that link you posted. It used to and may still well work with some drives but a lot of us have now tried swapping the drive for a same brand with larger capacity and found the iMac's not recognizing the temp sensors and initiating the system fans to full on mode. My iMac came with a Hitachi 500 GB drive...swapping it out for the 2TB version doesn't work even though its the same 2TB drive that's a custom build to order on the higher end machines. Other people have reported that swapping a drive with an identical version of the drive with another off the shelf fails. That leads me to think that when Apple stopped using Seagate drives due to the noise problems something changed with the firmware on the drives and they're no longer 'stock' OEM drives.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

I have to wonder about the pin alignment on the hard drive temp sensors and if people are aligning the sensors correctly; on the WD drives, there are more pins than the sensor uses up when plugged in, and if you don't plug it in on the same set of pins as the original, the sensor will not be recognized.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

On the Hitachi drives there's only two pins and the cable can only be plugged in one way on the drive. I'd love to be wrong on this as it would greatly simply things for me if i could find a way to install the 2TB drive instead of having to use it a external shell but I'm not the only one having issues.

I'd like to try the external temp sensor but not sure where I'd find one?


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Andrew Pratt said:


> On the Hitachi drives there's only two pins and the cable can only be plugged in one way on the drive. I'd love to be wrong on this but I'm not the only one having issues.


Agreed, there is a problem with swapping the drives; replacement hard drives from Apple come with modified replacement sensor cables that go with the replacement hard drive, though purchasing drives from AASP and therefore requiring technician(s) to do the job will cut out DIY owners from the equation and increase the upgrade costs involved.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

What's different about the sensor cable? There doesn't seem like there's much to modify, at least on the one I have connecting to the Hitachi drive as its a simple two wire cable...I'm more inclined to believe its a firmware change on the drive.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

How about we get this thread back on track... mmm'kayyy....


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*new thread*

seems to me the discussion about replacing hard drives in the new imacs is much more interesting! 
perhaps someone should start a new thread?


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Unless Lars has much more insight there's not much more to be said really. Sorry for taking the thread sideways!


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Andrew Pratt said:


> What's different about the sensor cable? There doesn't seem like there's much to modify, at least on the one I have connecting to the Hitachi drive as its a simple two wire cable...I'm more inclined to believe its a firmware change on the drive.


The cables are different - confirmed. Hard drives replaced under warranty on these iMacs are shipped with replacement temp sensor cables which require replacement alongside the drive; each drive manufacturer has a different style temp sensor and thus require their own individual and unique temp sensor cable to read the sensor found in the drive and communicate it back to the logic board.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Ahh, isn't it nice to have the last word....


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

boukman2 said:


> seems to me the discussion about replacing hard drives in the new imacs is much more interesting!
> perhaps someone should start a new thread?


Good idea!!!


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Paddy said:


> MACinist, careful on the Win 7 Home Premium from Canada Computers - you missed the fine print:
> 
> This is the system builder's edition of Win7 - designed for people who are building and selling PCs. The builder provides the support, MS does not, and the OS is not transferrable. You can go into CC and buy it - but they will make you buy a hard drive or RAM or some other internal hardware to go along with it. They may have started enforcing this recently; I bought exactly that edition of Win7 from them before Christmas with no other purchase, but my sister went in about 3 weeks ago and they told her she'd have to buy qualifying hardware as well. As she didn't need anything, she ordered it for more or less the same price online from NewEgg.ca who didn't require any hardware purchase.
> .


The fine print is there so M$ can see it. But if you go to any of these shops, you can easily buy this OS standalone. No hassles. I've done it many times and many other do as well. OS is transferrable. If you install it on a different PC, it will ask you to call M$ for new activation key, and they will do this no problem. Again, i've done it many times before on OEM versions. As far as M$ support, what does M$ really give you to charge twice as much? 

It ain't apples to apples but it's pretty damn close: more like Granny Smiths to Red Delicious. 

Correct if I'm wrong. When you buy a Seagate Hard drive through Apple, Apple supports it, not Seagate. I believe Apple's logo is even on the harddrive sticker. It also carries' Apple's one year warranty instead of Seagates 3 to 5 year (or WD or Hitachi etc) no? The point is, it's the same product.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Paddy said:


> And you need to compare apples and apples on the hard drives too - you've got Best Buy's listing for the PATA/IDE 250 GB Scorpio Blue up against the SATA 250 GB Scorpio Blue at Canada Computers. The PATA model at Canada computers is $91.99 - still $30 cheaper, but certainly not as bad as you implied. Plus, the drive at Best Buy comes in the retail box with a software CD, guide and a cable. The one at CC is a bare drive. The fact that you really don't NEED the stuff in the box (or the box) is moot - bare drives are always cheaper, and SATA is almost always substantially cheaper than PATA now because PATA is a dead/dying interface that no new computers are using.
> 
> Canada Computers - Hard Drives > Notebook Drives > 2.5" IDE Drives : Western Digital Scorpio Blue (WD2500BEVE) 250GB PATA 5400 RPM 8MB Cache 2.5" Laptop Hard Disk (OEM).


Yes, my oversight on the specs. Didn't think that BB would offer PATA as an option anymore. 

But the point is still valid:

FutureShop: Western Digital Caviar 1TB 3.5" Internal Hard Drive (HDIS1TBW) @ 129.99

From what I remember lately, these do not come with software or cables. FutureShop just gets OEM bare drives and retail packs them. Not sure which drive they use here to have a direct comparison, but it's 16mb version which means it's entry level to older Caviar. 

Canada Computers: Western Digital Caviar Green (WD10EADS) 1000GB (1TB) SATA 3 Gb/s 32MB (OEM) @ 79.99

CC is a lot cheaper (% wise) and it has 2 more years of warranty and bigger 32mb cache.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Andrew Pratt said:


> Actually you can't. If you follow the link to OWC's site and read the comments you'll find out that recently Apple changed something (likely the firmware in the drives) as you can no longer just match up the manufacturer types like you used to be able to do. I've tried installing a 2TB hitachi drive which is a larger version of the drive that came pre installed and the pin's match up perfectly but after 10 minutes the system fans ramp up to 6500 rpm. Its a common complaint these days and at this time there's no fix for it. The only work around seems to be shorting out the pins on the temp sensor cable but I'm not about to do that!


I can vouch for this. I upgraded to a 1TB drive in the entry level 21.5" new iMac at a independent Mac dealer and the fans went bonkers. Took it to the Apple store, they didn't know what was the issue at first either but when I came back a couple days later, they admitted that the heat sensor is not able to recognize other drives and makes the fans go crazy. I even bought the exact model/series of Hitachi drives that Apple uses in those models but the 1TB version. I ended up selling it and got me the 27".


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Lars said:


> Further more: Proprietary Cable can put the brakes on upgrading Late '09 iMacs. | Other World Computing Blog.
> 
> Seems that if you replace the pre-existing brand HD with the same brand replacement, it's a non-issue. It's when you switch HD brands that it become a problem. Thus, replace like for like, brand wise. (i.e; Seagate with Seagate.)
> 
> EDIT: Confirmed. Hard drives must be replaced on a like-for-like basis, brand wise, as I had suspected. If you swap brands, the temp sensor cable will require replacement.


Didn't work for me. The dealer got me the exact drive but 1TB. Apple store confirmed that sensor would not recognize any drive over 500GB on the entry level iMac.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

> The fine print is there so M$ can see it. But if you go to any of these shops, you can easily buy this OS standalone. No hassles. I've done it many times and many other do as well.


No...that is no longer the case - at least not at the CC on Kennedy in Scarborough. As I stated - I bought it with no other hardware back in November/December. My sister went in there a couple of weeks ago and was told that she had to buy "qualifying hardware" as well. She tried two different people in the store too (because she called me from the store and my reaction was the same as yours) - same story, they wouldn't sell it to her without RAM, hard drive etc. She didn't need anything else, so she ordered it from Newegg.ca instead. I suspect that MS may have cracked down on them. 

As for transferring it, I'm surprised to know that it's possible, though that was not my understanding from researching it online: 
Transfer of OEM Licenses
Microsoft SMB Community Blog : Can we re-install an OEM Windows Desktop Operating System license on a PC when we refurbish it?
OEM Windows 7 Cannot Be Transferred to New Computers from the Original Machine at CodenameWindows

As for purchasing hard drives at FutureShop, I agree - you'd have to be insane or know absolutely nothing. I don't know what model they're selling either - it doesn't fall into any of the current product lines that WD has on their site, and all internal WD drives normally have a minimum 3 year warranty these days. It's not a Caviar Green or Black (the 1TB models have a 64MB cache) and it's not a Caviar Blue (32MB cache). Most likely the older model (no longer available most places) of the 1TB Green, which did have a 16MB cache. But even it had a 3 year warranty when purchased from NewEgg.com over a year ago and judging by the reviews, it was discontinued in or around February 2009. 

Best Buy isn't quite as bad - they have the 1TB green in a retail box for $99.99, with the 3 year warranty. Occasionally Best Buy has a really good sale on drives - usually the externals, though, not the internals. Let's face it - they don't cater to people who actually know anything about computers, nor do they hire people who know much about computers - or any other electronics for that matter! I've been told/overheard some of the most ridiculous misinformation at some of these stores over the years. 

Interesting that the entry level 21.5" iMac is the only one without the option to upgrade the HD in the BTO section. It makes it an even more limited machine than most people realize, judging by how many poor souls responding to the OWC blog post tried to upgrade the HD and failed. However, it appears that the thermal sensor problem exists across the whole line, which of course means that one has to pay the "Apple tax" if you opt for the larger capacity 2TB drive ($275). Expensive, definitely - you can get the same thing for $100 less at Canada Computers and if you were able to upgrade it yourself, you'd also have the 1TB original drive afterwards. It would appear that Apple is moving towards an iMac that has even fewer options for user upgrading, perhaps on the theory that most people don't upgrade them anyway? All I can I say is that they'd better not try anything like this with the Mac Pros. I'd never buy an iMac for myself (my 14-year-old has a 2008 model) - I've never owned a Mac that I HAVEN'T upgraded substantially in the time that I owned it, all the way back to our good old IIsi.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> All I can I say is that they'd better not try anything like this with the Mac Pros. I'd never buy an iMac for myself (my 14-year-old has a 2008 model) - I've never owned a Mac that I HAVEN'T upgraded substantially in the time that I owned it, all the way back to our good old IIsi.


You've just proved Apple's point then...the iMac, fast as it may be right now, is still a consumer level machine with limited options. If you want choice and expandability you *have* to buy a pro. With the performance of the two machines being so close now, and the prices being so disparate, what you are referring to is what keeps the pro alive. You want to swap drives with impunity? buy a pro. you want eSATA? buy a pro 

so on and so forth


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

Well, I never said I thought that iMacs were "pro" machines, despite the fact that performance of the quad core iMac is in fact better than that of the Mac Pros in some categories. The Mac Pros definitely are due for a refresh - no doubt about it. But the reasons I wouldn't buy an iMac for myself include:

1. storage capacity - I have 4 drives in my Mac Pro. And several externals. I don't want 5 or 6 external drives sitting around!! (I have redundant backups - Time Machine and 2 SuperDuper, plus a couple of drives for other purposes)
2. RAM - I haven't maxed out my Mac Pro...yet...but I like that I have somewhat more capacity than the iMac offers
3. Expandability - I have an eSATA card...can't do that with an iMac.
4. And the biggie - I REALLY don't like glossy monitors. (and that can't be adjusted vertically)

They're beautiful looking, fast as can be (I've played with the newest ones at the Apple Store and at our local Staples, which is now carrying Macs) - and the new screens are superb...I just don't like reflections...

Rob Griffiths' article on the subject back in November was pretty spot on.

Why go Pro when iMac goes faster? | Business Center | Macworld

Meanwhile, the wait for new Mac Pros is getting rather tedious - not that I'm really in the market for one! (Mine is just a year old, a replacement provided by Apple, amazingly enough, for my leaky 4-year-old G5 dualie, )


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

*Windows*



MACinist said:


> The fine print is there so M$ can see it. But if you go to any of these shops, you can easily buy this OS standalone. No hassles. I've done it many times and many other do as well. OS is transferrable. If you install it on a different PC, it will ask you to call M$ for new activation key, and they will do this no problem. Again, i've done it many times before on OEM versions. As far as M$ support, what does M$ really give you to charge twice as much?


This works, but it is not legit so don't say it is. It can work, but only if you lie when calling to activate.

OEM Windows is a Device license. That is why it is supposed to only be sold with a PC. Whether or not a reseller follows the rules is a different story. That is also why the license is a sticker. The pc builder is supposed to stick it to the PC. Retire the PC = retire the license.

Retail versions of Windows (i.e. what Best Buy sells) costs more because they are a USER license. It is legitimately transferrable PC to PC.

With the OEM version when you call to activate the first question they ask is "How many PCs is this copy of Windows installed on?" 

Try saying 2..... see how far you get.

The call to activate option is available for people who have had a motherboard failure or hard drive failure. You need to to re-activate. Since you haven't changed PCs it is legit.

What you do is your business, but you shouldn't be encouraging people to break the EULA.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

smashedbanana said:


> Retail versions of Windows (i.e. what Best Buy sells) costs more because they are a USER license. It is legitimately transferrable PC to PC.


So can USER licences be used on multiple machines? i.e. could someone use it on a desktop computer & a laptop at the same time?


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

> So can USER licences be used on multiple machines? i.e. could someone use it on a desktop computer & a laptop at the same time?


Nope.

But you CAN transfer the license to another PC legally (after deactivating it on the first PC). As I noted, the system builder copies of Windows are intended for those who are BUILDING PCs from scratch and who will provide the support to the end-user. MS does not provide the support. (Anecdotally, they will provide support to you if you identify yourself as the system builder) You may think this is silly or whatever, but it is a legitimate cost to MS to provide this support and if they offload it to the system builder, it's a savings to them. System builders include companies such as Dell (who I'm sure get a much better deal on the OEM versions) all the way down to people who build custom PCs for individuals.

The OEM versions are tied to the motherboards - although people do report that they have been able to reactivate an OEM license on a machine which has had to have a new motherboard because of failure or in some cases, due to an upgrade. It's not clear whether there was any lying involved in the calls to MS to reactivate the OS.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

broad said:


> You've just proved Apple's point then...the iMac, fast as it may be right now, is still a consumer level machine with limited options. If you want choice and expandability you *have* to buy a pro. With the performance of the two machines being so close now, and the prices being so disparate, what you are referring to is what keeps the pro alive. You want to swap drives with impunity? buy a pro. you want eSATA? buy a pro
> 
> so on and so forth


And that isn't fair, at all. This is where my complaint with Apples lineup resides, its difficult for me to stomach buying a upgradeable mac (oxymoron), the only one in the lineup where one can do so, for 2800, a system that can't even run games on max settings due to its pitiful video card. AKA Why I built a hackintosh, and bought OS X and installed it, until Apple shapes up, I will continue to break their EULA.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

my post was directed at paddy not you...i wouldn't waste my time or my fingerprints on you

ps-yes, i am aware i just have...


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

broad said:


> my post was directed at paddy not you...i wouldn't waste my time or my fingerprints on you
> 
> ps-yes, i am aware i just have...


O Rly, why is that?


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

see the second post in this thread.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Chas3 said:


> And that isn't fair, at all. This is where my complaint with Apples lineup resides, its difficult for me to stomach buying a upgradeable mac (oxymoron), the only one in the lineup where one can do so, for 2800, *a system that can't even run games on max settings due to its pitiful video card*. AKA* Why I built a hackintosh, and bought OS X and installed it, until Apple shapes up, I will continue to break their EULA.*


What games are you wanting to run that you can't and how would you know if you haven't tried.  What a whiner... just keep on rationalizing... listen if you really want to run games that badly... here's a thought get an Xbox or Play Station. Way more choice of games and you don't have to break anything...


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

screature said:


> What games are you wanting to run that you can't and how would you know if you haven't tried.  What a whiner... just keep on rationalizing... listen if you really want to run games that badly... here's a thought get an Xbox or Play Station. Way more choice of games and you don't have to break anything...


Arguing that console games are superior to PC games is one of the worst arguments you could make with a pc gamer, even though I frequently use my various consoles. Well on my laptop, No games would be a good estimate, maybe sims 2 on the lowest settings, and you can't really call that a game . I'm not a whiner at all, just don'twant to pay 2800 dollars to run games at high settings, my hackintosh runs all games at max, including crysis with 2x AA. A Mac Mini could maybe get by with medium settings? Maybe?


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

Oh I see what you did there, you see, tis ridiculous in a workstation meant for high graphics/studio use, it uses a basically rebranded Nvidia Gt 8600. That is just plain preposterous, If I wanted to spend the same amount on my pc as I did for a Mac Pro I would put 3 5870's in SLI, a i7 965 extreme, some crazy motherboard (Not foxconn garbage), 6gb ddr3 1600mhz, and some nice hd's, a machine that would "rape" a Mac Pro, but I'm not going to have this argument, as there is to many "what if's", AKA the Mac Pro has a xeon processor, which has no processing gain, it would just be more reliable if it was under heavy use 24/7, AKA why Servers use them. Heres some more food for thought, my Mini Itx Case (p180 Mini) Has 6 Hd bays, a full tower case has 8, yet the Mac Pro only has 4... Wtf?


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

It'd be nice if the mac pro have more drive bays (although 4 is very reasonable), but not at the cost of it losing it's incredible design. The Mac Pro is BY FAR the greatest computer design i've used for upgrading. I remember the last desktop PC i had... what a nightmare swapping the powers supply was. Cut up my finger in the process, and it took me 15 mins to find the right wires in it's tangled mess.

You seem like you want others on the board to justify your hackitosh as being "better". It's probably not going to happen here. 

I have no problem with you having one (hell i've thought about doing it to my toshiba m400 tablet pc because i can't stand windows). For your use it's probably a good solution, but in many others case it's not an ideal solution. Many people rather pay a bit more and not have to troubleshoot editing kexts and worrying about the OS breaking at every update or upgrade.

If you're happy with the value found in your hackintosh then thats all that matters. Don't worry about getting this boards approval of it.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

i-rui said:


> It'd be nice if the mac pro have more drive bays (although 4 is very reasonable), but not at the cost of it losing it's incredible design. The Mac Pro is BY FAR the greatest computer design i've used for upgrading. I remember the last desktop PC i had... what a nightmare swapping the powers supply was. Cut up my finger in the process, and it took me 15 mins to find the right wires in it's tangled mess.
> 
> You seem like you want others on the board to justify your hackitosh as being "better". It's probably not going to happen here.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to gain any approval, and I'm going to assume you used a prebuilt pc... The inside of my Pc has no wires exposed... none, and the inside is matte black steel, the outside gunmetal grey, it also has more drive bays for things like dvd and bluray drives, but thats another story. I completely agree with you, the Mac Pro's case design is god tier, I'm sacrificing with my hackintosh to have a beautiful industrial designed case, and well thought out case, like the Mac Pro's, but I, as I said before, didn't want to spen 1500 dollars more for that option, even though there may be other factors to consider


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

i-rui said:


> It'd be nice if the mac pro have more drive bays (although 4 is very reasonable), but not at the cost of it losing it's incredible design. The Mac Pro is BY FAR the greatest computer design i've used for upgrading. I remember the last desktop PC i had... what a nightmare swapping the powers supply was. Cut up my finger in the process, and it took me 15 mins to find the right wires in it's tangled mess.
> 
> You seem like you want others on the board to justify your hackitosh as being "better". It's probably not going to happen here.
> 
> ...


All excellent points and reasonable. :clap:


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Chas3 said:


> I'm not trying to gain any approval, and I'm going to assume you used a prebuilt pc... The inside of my Pc has no wires exposed... none, and the inside is matte black steel, the outside gunmetal grey, it also has more drive bays for things like dvd and bluray drives, but thats another story. I completely agree with you, the Mac Pro's case design is god tier, I'm sacrificing with my hackintosh to have a beautiful industrial designed case, and well thought out case, like the Mac Pro's, but I, as I said before, didn't want to spen 1500 dollars more for that option, even though there may be other factors to consider


It's obvious your not trying to gain any approval... But quite frankly, bitching about the things that you do, and that Apple should be doing this and doing that when you clearly don't appreciate their business model is tiresome.

They aren't going to change to satisfy you and what you are looking for, you aren't their targeted market. Hey, if you want to buy their OS and then break the EULA to make make your frankentoshes, knock yourself out, just don't expect to find a whole lot of sympathy here. I think you will find that the majority of the members here are generally happy with their Macs, of course they are not perfect and they are expensive but most would say they are worth it.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

screature said:


> It's obvious your not trying to gain any approval... But quite frankly, bitching about the things that you do, and that Apple should be doing this and doing that when you clearly don't appreciate their business model is tiresome.
> 
> They aren't going to change to satisfy you and what you are looking for, you aren't their targeted market. Hey, if you want to buy their OS and then break the EULA to make make your frankentoshes, knock yourself out, just don't expect to find a whole lot of sympathy here. I think you will find that the majority of the members here are generally happy with their Macs, of course they are not perfect and they are expensive but most would say they are worth it.


I wouldn't call it bitching, rather challenging Apple, their lineup and pricing scheme. And as soon as I can afford a Mac Pro, and it actually makes sense to buy one at a certain pricepoint, I'll jump on board.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Chas3 said:


> I wouldn't call it bitching, rather challenging Apple, their lineup and pricing scheme. And as soon as I can afford a Mac Pro, and it actually makes sense to buy one at a certain pricepoint, I'll jump on board.


Ok, then challenge them. Write to them directly would be my suggestion. I don't think writing here about your particular dissatisfactions is going to accomplish much with Apple.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

smashedbanana said:


> This works, but it is not legit so don't say it is. It can work, but only if you lie when calling to activate.
> 
> OEM Windows is a Device license. That is why it is supposed to only be sold with a PC. Whether or not a reseller follows the rules is a different story. That is also why the license is a sticker. The pc builder is supposed to stick it to the PC. Retire the PC = retire the license.
> 
> ...


Hold on a sec... I never said you can install these on two different machines at the same time nor am I encouraging it before you start accusing me of breaking anything. I've called M$ and have clearly told them it's an OEM copy. They still gave me the activation key after I told them I upgraded PC's and transferring the OS to the new one. As far as I know, you cannot install a retail copy on more than once PC either (however, I do recall they allowed a Desktop and a Laptop install at one point, not sure if that's true anymore).

Edit: reading more up on it, you are right, OEM does follow the Motherboard. However, there have been reports of MS being linient towards this. Whether the caller lied or not, who knows. I know that I clearly stated this was an OEM license I bought at a store (not a generic one that came with a Dell or an HP) and that I was re-installing it on a new computer because the old one is gone.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> I'm not trying to gain any approval, _and now im going to list some awesome things about my hackintosh to gain your approva_l


as has been said, save it...no on here cares about your hackintosh and how awesome it is. you are an obnoxious boor who contributes nothing except snipes and sh1t talking..

you want to challenge apple? take it up with them. no one here works for apple, nor does anyone at apple care about what a bunch of mac nerds on a canadian messageboard think. 

get a life, go for a walk outside


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

*Microsoft Tax - Literally*

I posted this in "Everything Else, eh!", but because of the title of this thread, maybe I should have posted it here instead:



SoyMac said:


> Microsoft proposes Internet usage tax to pay for cleanup of Windows PC infections


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

broad said:


> as has been said, save it...no on here cares about your hackintosh and how awesome it is. you are an obnoxious boor who contributes nothing except snipes and sh1t talking..
> 
> you want to challenge apple? take it up with them. no one here works for apple, nor does anyone at apple care about what a bunch of mac nerds on a canadian messageboard think.
> 
> get a life, go for a walk outside


Enjoy you're non upgradeable video card. Buzz off newcomer.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Chas3 said:


> Enjoy you're non upgradeable video card. Buzz off newcomer.


Newcomer... Really...? That is the best you can do?!?! C'mon Chas3... dig deep... 

As far as "slings and arrows" go, that is just a suction cup arrow on a kid's bow and arrow set. :lmao:

[I'm just rankin' your chain BTW (in case you weren't already aware)...  ]


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

screature said:


> Newcomer... Really...? That is the best you can do?!?! C'mon Chas3... dig deep...
> 
> As far as "slings and arrows" go, that is just a suction cup arrow on a kids bow and arrow set. :lmao:
> 
> [I'm just rankin' your chain BTW (in case you weren't already aware)...  ]


Butthurt describes it better.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Chas3 said:


> Butthurt describes it better.


Yeah, I have been called a "pain in the ass" even by people who I know love me...


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

My dads logicboard board just fried on his one month old mbp 
apple is releasing some terrible crap these days. Looks pretty, specs sound good, last about as long as an ikea product made of cardboard and plastic

I'm pretty sure he paid apple tax, though I could be wrong


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> Enjoy you're non upgradeable video card. Buzz off newcomer.


HAHAHA newcomer??

BTW it's "your" not "you're"

you'd better a) get some better material and b) learn the grammar of *at least* a nine year old if you want to step up to me, son. 

whenever you finish grade 7 english come find me...i'll be right here



> My dads logicboard board just fried on his one month old mbp
> apple is releasing some terrible crap these days. Looks pretty, specs sound good, last about as long as an ikea product made of cardboard and plastic


not a big deal really...most electronics that are going to die do it within the first month. this is why you have a warranty. you think there is a higher number of macs that die in the first month than dell or HP machines? i'd wager not


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

broad said:


> not a big deal really...most electronics that are going to die do it within the first month. this is why you have a warranty. you think there is a higher number of macs that die in the first month than dell or HP machines? i'd wager not


Sure point taken, though in my recent experience, I have had 3 separate friends (including my dad on this one), have their logic boards die. None of my 'pc' friends have had these problems, on machines half the price.

I'm only saying this to, if anything, point out that neither of us have cold hard facts on this one. Also, without a doubt, the quality of apple products is dropping. You must agree with me on that.

hehe


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

*Apple reliability*

Well, some say they are still tops but margin is getting smaller:

Rescuecom PC Reliability: Apple, Asus, Lenovo - Tom's Hardware

The new iMac's had many issues for sure. Apparently resolved now, but I hope my i5 doesn't die on me anytime soon and I will surely get the Applecare. 

I find that Apple's building materials have improved over the years. Unibodies are industy leading and the aluminium iMacs have been much more solid since the white plastics and CRT's. So I don't think they are cutting corners. It may be an issue of having to be quicker to market on newer technology which is much tougher and complicated quality control the PPC chipset days.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

> Of course, the reliability ranking doesn't account for users who experience problems but enlist the services of the OEM. For example, those experiencing difficulties with a Mac might choose to deal directly with Applecare rather than Rescuecom, which wouldn't be tracked in the aforementioned report.


I would suggest that the reliability ranking is entirely bogus because of this.

MOST people are going to go back to the manufacturer for any warranty issues that occur within the warranty period, which can be anywhere from 1 to 3 years. And where the heck is Dell in that list?

Computer Reliability Statistics – How Reliable Are They? | The Blade by Ron Schenone, MVP

And to answer the question asked in this blog article - I would trust the data from Consumer Reports a lot more than something that Rescuecom coughs up, because Consumer Reports methodology is different. It sends out surveys every year to ALL of its subscribers and it's therefore probably a much larger cross-section of users of all brands of computers and reports both their bad and their good experiences.

In a survey of over 75,000 readers who bought _a laptop_ between 2005 and 2009, Apple doesn't come out on top. Those reporting repairs and serious problems:

Toshiba - 16%
Sony - 17%
Compaq- 18%
Acer & Apple - 19%
HP & Gateway - 20%
Dell & Lenovo - 21%

In a survey of over 62,500 CR readers who bought a desktop computer between 2005 and 2009, Apple did significantly better than the competition, with a lower incidence of serious problems or repairs:

Apple - 13%
Compaq - 18%
eMachines - 19%
Dell - 20%
HP - 21%
Sony - 22%
Gateway* - 23%

Apple does score consistently high on customer service - actually fixing the problems with a minimum of hassle. Apple also consistently does well in CR's overall ratings.

*Interesting...years ago, I used to tell friends who were looking for new PCs (and for whatever reason won't/can't buy a Mac) NOT to buy Gateways - obviously nothing much has changed.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Paddy said:


> I would suggest that the reliability ranking is entirely bogus because of this.
> 
> MOST people are going to go back to the manufacturer for any warranty issues that occur within the warranty period, which can be anywhere from 1 to 3 years. And where the heck is Dell in that list?
> 
> ...


I subscribe to CR as well. It's my Bible for car shopping and giving car advice to others. However, the current stats are a bit different for me when I log in. Weird. Apple looks like middle of the pack. Any case, even with the problems I have had with the current gen of iMacs, I will still tell anyone it's the most reliable and easiest to deal with.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

The screen shot you posted is the same as the stats I posted for the laptops (I just listed the companies with the same percentages together). The other set of stats is for desktops.


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## The G3 Man (Oct 7, 2008)

Chas3 said:


> Enjoy you're non upgradeable video card. Buzz off newcomer.


Hackintosh's are great... I had a P4 as a hackintosh for a while there... kicked ass. 

/\/\/\/\ƒ


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

The G3 Man said:


> Hackintosh's are great... I had a P4 as a hackintosh for a while there... kicked ass.
> 
> /\/\/\/\ƒ


It's funny how there are so many "anti-piracy" folk around here and yet so many willing to break Apple's EULA...  Which is no less about "intellectual property" when you think about it... I guess we all choose what we are willing to rationalize.


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