# When did "cleavage" become such a fashion statement?



## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

I know, I know, as long as there have been boobs on women, we've tried to use them to our best advantage, but didn't we used to be a bit more subtle about it?

I'm tired of seeing everybody's knockers trying to climb out of their shirt. Most of the time rather than making them look sexy, it just makes it look like they gained a lot of weight and haven't had time to shop.

And what will become of all that medically enhanced frontage when flat-chested becomes the new sexy?

Guys?

Discuss.

Margaret (67 and counting)


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Agreed. I'm a guy but unimpressed when girls fail at any slight subtlety. We [I?] like some mystery.


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun. You can't stare at it long, it's too risky. You get a sense of it then you look away

As a male in my mid twenties, I am not uses I have been put off by too much cleavage before


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

a long long while










Good article here



> *Cleavage – The Great Reveal!*
> Jun 14 2011
> 
> Cleavage display has been used throughout history to enhance physical, sexual and financial attractiveness. Fashions and public morals dictate how much or how little breast it’s acceptable to show and it’s been quite a roller coaster ride over the last 600 years.


Cleavage – The Great Reveal! « Bra Doctor's Blog

Personally I like small breasts on a woman.....an light shirt with a couple of buttons undone to tease......that's erotic...


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Nothing wrong with good cleavage, so long as you're prepared to have men focus all of their attention there, either looking or trying to avoid looking. It's especially distracting as a teacher, where you DEFINITELY don't want to be looking. Great for the nightclub, but I don't want to see it (or them) in the classroom. Doesn't make me a perv either. There's a great video called "Jeggings" on YouTube I think you'd enjoy.


----------



## fellfromtree (May 18, 2005)

This is one of my biggest complaints about banks (all banks). Why do tellers wear lowcut tops, or tank tops. Totally inappropriate. The wicket leaves no other line of sight, most of their work is done bending over the counter. Do they want me to see down to their navel?


----------



## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Personally I like small breasts on a woman.....an light shirt with a couple of buttons undone to tease......that's erotic...


+1.

All this cleavage showing, and then, when I look, *I* am the pervert. Nice.

Cheers


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

*Tom Waits - PASTIES AND A G-STRING*

I love this song... 

*Pasties and a G-string *

Smelling like a brewery,
looking like a tramp
I ain't got a quarter
got a postage stamp
Been five o'clock shadow boxing
all around the town
Talking with the old men
sleeping on the ground
Bazanti bootin
al zootin al hoot
and Al Cohn
sharin this apartment
with a telephone pole
and it's a fish-net stockings
spike-heel shoes
Strip tease, prick tease
car kease blues
and the porno floor show
live nude girls
dreamy and creamy
and the brunette curls
Chesty Morgan and a
Watermelon Rose
raise my rent and take off
all your clothes
with the trench coats
magazines bottle full of rum
she's so good, it make
a dead man cum, with
pasties and a g-string
beer and a shot
Portland through a shot glass
and a Buffalo squeeze
wrinkles and cherry
and twinky and pinky
and FeFe live from Gay Paree
fanfares rim shots
back stage who cares
all this hot burlesque for me

*cleavage, cleavage* thighs and hips
from the nape of her neck
to the lip stick lips
chopped and channeled
and lowered and louvered
and a cheater slicks
and baby moons
she's hot and ready
and creamy and sugared
and the band is awful
and so are the tunes

crawlin on her belly shakin like jelly
and I'm getting harder than
Chinese algebraziers and cheers
from the compendium here
hey sweet heart they're yellin for more
squashing out your cigarette butts
on the floor
and I like Shelly
you like Jane
what was the girl with the snake skins name
it's an early bird matinee
come back any day
getcha little sompin
that cha can't get at home
getcha little sompin
that cha can't get at home
pasties and a g-string
beer and a shot
Portland through a shot glass
and a Buffalo squeeze
popcorn, front row
higher than a kite
and I'll be back tomorrow night
and I'll be back tomorrow night





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

fellfromtree said:


> This is one of my biggest complaints about banks (all banks). Why do tellers wear lowcut tops, or tank tops. Totally inappropriate. The wicket leaves no other line of sight, most of their work is done bending over the counter. Do they want me to see down to their navel?


The main reason I do all my banking in person, at my age you have to take advantage of whatever is available.
Just the other day I had one of the few male tellers even suggest to me that he would undo a couple of his shirt buttons if it would make me more comfortable.
All in good jest I might add...


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I believe we are in the era of 'porno-chic'.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

and this new???


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> I believe we are in the era of 'porno-chic'.


I think it is cyclical like all fashion... I mean really look at the paintings from the mid to late19th century and all the movies made about the times... the women all have cleavage displayed beyond belief... it is cyclical and Twiggy will be back in fashion before you know it.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Sorry to be so crass but I say bring it on!

With the sexist caveat stating women only please. Men can be 'boobs' enough...`

EDIT: Sorry, I must be spending too much time in the beer thread.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

There is some talk that Kate Middleton's style is going to bring a little respectability back to fashion.... certainly if you look at her wedding dress (demure with full lace sleeves) vs the sexy and strapless numbers that seem to have been popular for the last few years, that seems plausible.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> There is some talk that Kate Middleton's style is going to bring a little respectability back to fashion.... certainly if you look at her wedding dress (demure with full lace sleeves) vs the sexy and strapless numbers that seem to have been popular for the last few years, that seems plausible.


I was just going to post the same sentiment... Kate Middleton and her popularity may bring back a period of fashion austerity sooner than later... 

I wouldn't personally necessarily call it "respectability" as I don't think there is anything unseemly about a nice cleavage and displaying it tastefully... look at Marilyn Monroe, Jane Mansfield, Sophia Loren etc... they weren't distasteful in the display of their bosom and I don't think many of the women today following the current fashion trend today are distasteful either... sure there are the Jersey Shore chicks et. al., but for any women who isn't making money from her boobs they tend to be a little more classy in their presentation even though they have plenty to show if they wanted to... even those who don't have so much to show... it can still be very tasteful and appealing.


----------



## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Sonal said:


> I believe we are in the era of 'porno-chic'.


When I was still working, a younger more curvaceous co-worker regularly complained that male co-workers were hitting on her. I told her that none of the staff ever hit on me. Her reply? "well look at how you dress"

I shook my head and walked away.

What brought this t mind was ep. 1 of this season Big Brother. Usually I'm embarrassed for the scantily clad female house guests, but watching this season opener, I realized there is just as much skin visible in the mall.

Margaret


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> I wouldn't personally necessarily call it "respectability" as I don't think there is anything unseemly about a nice cleavage and displaying it tastefully... look at Marilyn Monroe, Jane Mansfield, Sophia Loren etc...


I wouldn't describe any of these woman as dressing 'porno chic' either.

Back when I had cable, I occasionally watched "Say Yes to the Dress". One of the really popular wedding dress designers on there was Pnina Tornei. I think a lot of her dresses could be considered a bit on the stripperrific side.... especially if you contrast them with Kate's dress.

Examples: 
Why Oh Why Tornai? | Manolo for the Brides

It's not exactly Jersey Shore, but most of them are not what I'd call classy wedding wear either... and people are paying thousands of dollars for this.


----------



## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

Wan't it just recently that a police officer was castigated for asking women to not dress like sluts so that there would be less opportunity for violence against them? Some women even organised a "slut-walk" IIRC.

I know I may be in the minority here, but I fully agree with that cop's sentiment and his choice of words. If you don't want me to look or leer, don't put it on display then.

Cheers


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

tilt said:


> Wan't it just recently that a police officer was castigated for asking women to not dress like sluts so that there would be less opportunity for violence against them? Some women even organised a "slut-walk" IIRC.


Yeah, totally missing the point of the event, as well as the extremely faulty reasoning behind the lie "there would be less violence against women if they didn't dress like sluts."


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Agreed with Sonal. A woman displaying her beauty should never be an invitation to be bullied or raped.

On the other hand, I believe het men are hard-wired to look. So if a woman is going to display her curvaceous attributes, you can't really expect guys _not_ to at least steal a glance. That's a far cry from a leer, much less a sleazy come-on or angry reproach from someone.

And if we're going to get nasty about displays of flesh, I know a lot of dudes who would do well to put on more clothing in the summer. Double standards abound in our big ole world.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> And if we're going to get nasty about displays of flesh, I know a lot of dudes who would do well to put on more clothing in the summer. Double standards abound in our big ole world.


Oy vey! Man paps!


----------



## Chimpur (May 1, 2009)

tilt said:


> Wan't it just recently that a police officer was castigated for asking women to not dress like sluts so that there would be less opportunity for violence against them? Some women even organised a "slut-walk" IIRC.
> 
> I know I may be in the minority here, but I fully agree with that cop's sentiment and his choice of words. If you don't want me to look or leer, don't put it on display then.
> 
> Cheers


Yup, exactly my thoughts..... I mean you don't go and buy a flashy car so no one looks at you or to blend in. You will draw attention to yourself. Same goes with how you dress. Its an expression of yourself. A projected image if you will.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

_Absolument_, MF. And humongous beer bellies, supported by a pair of bandy legs. It is to gasp.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

The norge refrigerator repair man just left, you should have seen his ass crack cleavage when he was on his knees.


----------



## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

steviewhy said:


> ...This thread is worthless without pics.


I find it titillating.


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

My wife works in an ortho clinic where they get all these teen girls in that her boss refers to as "prostitots". When he sees one coming in, he usually makes sure the assistants get the big bibs out to cover them up to avoid legal issues. When you're working inches over their boobs, one can never be too careful.
Someone mentioned Kate Middleton and I think she's a class act. A beautiful young woman that doesn't need to dress like a hooker to see it. I hope she reverses the "slut" trend I'm seeing with on some of my inlaws daughter's narcissistic facebook pages.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

MacGuiver said:


> My wife works in an ortho clinic where they get all these teen girls in that her boss refers to as "prostitots". When he sees one coming in, he usually makes sure the assistants get the big bibs out to cover them up to avoid legal issues. When you're working inches over their boobs, one can never be too careful.
> Someone mentioned Kate Middleton and I think she's a class act. A beautiful young woman that doesn't need to dress like a hooker to see it. I hope she reverses the "slut" trend I'm seeing with on some of my inlaws daughter's narcissistic facebook pages.


Ya and that Pippa's the real Hawty eh. Alas not much cleavage on those Middletons.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Some women (and young girls) need to learn there is at times, too much of a good thing. Modesty, mystery and style trumps a tart every time. Bigger is not better in far too many cases.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

steviewhy said:


> ...This thread is worthless without pics.


PICS.....or it didn't happen.


----------



## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

***CONTENT WARNING*** 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

MacGuiver said:


> Someone mentioned Kate Middleton and I think she's a class act. A beautiful young woman that doesn't need to dress like a hooker to see it. I hope she reverses the "slut" trend I'm seeing with on some of my inlaws daughter's narcissistic facebook pages.


You mean this Kate Middleton?








Its just a fashion show though.



I actually see nothing wrong with cleavage, or dressing "sexy", but I get the point with some of the complaints, especially some of the prostitots, the actual ones.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Yeah those Middleton's all class.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Oh Katie....now compared to Marilyn Monroe after cowtown incident

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/08/kates-marilyn-moment-in-calgary

Rather "cheeky" eh!


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Yow! 

Yes indeed I -do- hope she influences more cheek!

Don't mind a bit.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Gee I hope young Kate isn't on the "butt" end of too many jokes.


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

ertman said:


> You mean this Kate Middleton?


Oy vey!
I was talking about the version of Kate touring Canada we've seen on TV. She looks classy and beautiful without looking like Ron Geramy's latest co-star.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Maybe she'll be able to put the past "behind" her.


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

ertman said:


> .


Let me polish my eyeballs to make sure I see clearly!

I don't see any "cleavage" here.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

There may not be cleavage, but that's what she was wearing (part of a fashion show) when she first caught William's eye...


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Hope she doesn't make a royal "ass" of herself.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Frankly, I think the Sun photo is quite crude and shows the lack of respect that seems to be an on-going crusade amongst news media. I'm not a prude by any stretch, but I think there should be a certain etiquette when one captures an unintentional provocative picture. In the old days, and I mean when cleavage was shown, men didn't take out their microscopes and examined every inch as in a laboratory ... it was a quick glance, and if you saw something you shouldn't see, etiquette demanded you showed respect and not make a big deal of it. Women have always "strut" their stuff, it's part of the attraction ritual, as do men in their way. What I see happening is that we have lost the knack of subtlety..... both in the sending and receiving of our sexual messages.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Maybe the burka is the answer.


----------



## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

jimbotelecom said:


> Maybe the burka is the answer.


Or maybe men should stop thinking with their pants brains ...


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MLeh said:


> Or maybe men should stop thinking with their pants brains ...


I see little harm in a man admiring a woman's figure as a casual glance of appreciation. To me mystery is more erotic than letting it all hang out, so to speak. You're right though, some guys just don't get it.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

The thing that I would have to say when it comes to things sexual is that I have to agree with an adage I heard years and years ago and believe it to true...

"One person's erotica is another person's porn."

It's all relative and so long as it isn't hurting anyone (who doesn't want to be hurt ) we are all free to look or not look.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

MLeh said:


> Or maybe men should stop thinking with their pants brains ...


Men are predominant in this regard as we have way more testosterone, but I have known plenty of women who "think" first with their sexuality over their intellect as well.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Erotic suggests; porn spells out.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> Erotic suggests; porn spells out.


Well like I said...

"One person's erotica is another person's porn"... that is *your* definition and differentiation... it isn't everyone's.. unless you presume to speak for everyone....


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Agreed with Screature. We don't all read from the same script in this regard. Thankfully - we'd be terribly bored, and boring, otherwise.


----------



## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

Sonal said:


> Yeah, totally missing the point of the event, as well as the extremely faulty reasoning behind the lie "there would be less violence against women if they didn't dress like sluts."


Sorry to be dumb, but are you saying that it is I who is missing the point and that it is my reasoning that is faulty, or...?

Cheers


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I must say the Duchess of Cambridge has a very nice ass.


----------



## Aurora (Sep 25, 2001)

Japanese men think that the nape of a woman's neck is erotic. That is why the women wear high collars. Much more sexy.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> I must say the Duchess of Cambridge has a very nice ass.


From what we can see, so it would seem. She was a model after all... she has some cred in this regard...


----------



## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

There was an episode of Benny Hill that showed them at a nudist resort from the perspective of someone standing just out front looking in. Typical type of skit well positioned volleyballs, swinging gates, etc. with the standard music playing. Funny on it's own. Then a woman leaves the resort, stops and puts her foot up on the seat of a bench and lifts the hem of her skirt up just a touch and adjusts the top of her stocking. 

The remaining nude men on the other side of the fence all immediately stop what they are doing and lean over the fence to stare at this bit of exposure. The irony being that this same woman had been running around in front of them fully naked. 

My point is that timing and context can be the difference. 

A well timed innocent 'slip' of a woman's body that is normally covered is much much nicer than a 'here look at me' blatant exposure.


----------



## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

Oakbridge said:


> There was an episode of Benny Hill that showed them at a nudist resort from the perspective of someone standing just out front looking in. Typical type of skit well positioned volleyballs, swinging gates, etc. with the standard music playing. Funny on it's own. Then a woman leaves the resort, stops and puts her foot up on the seat of a bench and lifts the hem of her skirt up just a touch and adjusts the top of her stocking.
> 
> The remaining nude men on the other side of the fence all immediately stop what they are doing and lean over the fence to stare at this bit of exposure. The irony being that this same woman had been running around in front of them fully naked.


This reminds me of a joke I read many many years ago - a couple of men in a nudist club were looking at a well-endowed woman, likewise naked, and one said to the other "Wow, imagine those in a tight-fitting sweater!"

Cheers


----------



## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Some people really like the attention.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

tilt said:


> Wan't it just recently that a police officer was castigated for asking women to not dress like sluts so that there would be less opportunity for violence against them? Some women even organised a "slut-walk" IIRC.
> 
> I know I may be in the minority here, but I fully agree with that cop's sentiment and his choice of words. If you don't want me to look or leer, don't put it on display then.


Wow - you really didn't get the point. We're not talking about being looked at, we're talking about rape here. The point is that women can and should be able to dress however they want, and under absolutely no circumstances should it even been told or thought that their choice of dress was the fault they were raped. When a cop stands up and says that, that sends the message that women who dress more conservatively are going to get looked after more than one who dressed more revealing. Under no circumstances should that ever happen.

Imagine if you were raped and a cop told you or you even overheard one cop tell another "she shouldn't have dressed that way." Should you even be made to thought that you being raped was your fault? This is about blaming the victim, plain and simple. That should never happen.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

hayesk said:


> Wow - you really didn't get the point. We're not talking about being looked at, we're talking about rape here. The point is that women can and should be able to dress however they want, and under absolutely no circumstances should it even been told or thought that their choice of dress was the fault they were raped. When a cop stands up and says that, that sends the message that women who dress more conservatively are going to get looked after more than one who dressed more revealing. Under no circumstances should that ever happen.
> 
> Imagine if you were raped and a cop told you or you even overheard one cop tell another "she shouldn't have dressed that way." Should you even be made to thought that you being raped was your fault? This is about blaming the victim, plain and simple. That should never happen.


Very well said.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Very well said.


Having said that--and I agree no one deserves to be raped for ANY reason--a person should really watch that Dave Chapelle video again. If you wear the uniform...


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> having said that--and i agree no one deserves to be raped for any reason--a person should really watch that dave chapelle video again. If you wear the uniform...


^

+1


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> Having said that--and I agree no one deserves to be raped for ANY reason--a person should really watch that Dave Chapelle video again. If you wear the uniform...


-1... 

So if I choose to carry a "manbag" as I did back in the early 80's that means I am gay??

These are all stereotypes, we shouldn't be prejudged (prejudice) or presumed to be *any* way just because of the way we choose to dress...

It may be "common place" to do so but it doesn't make it right.

The Dave Chapelle routine makes for good humour but makes for/excuses very bad behaviour.

Live and let live...


----------



## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

This will make you feel better....





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






:lmao:beejacon


----------



## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

lol great thread! 

I feel guilty as heck when I see blatant cleavage b/c i'm going to blatantly look. I can't help it - it's genetic. It's like a radar....bing..there they are!

I don't know if the subtlety is gone, but I think there are maybe more women of all shapes and sizes doing it. I could be wrong, but I feel that heavier set ladies used to dress different, but now they dress like thinner ladies and excuse the expression, let it all hang out so to speak.

There's nothing wrong with that and i'm certainly not judging heavier set people - just stating what I think may be the case.

I'm just waiting for the day when I blatantly get caught looking at blatantly in-my-face cleavage b/c i know if anything is said to me, I'm likely to yell innocently, with arms out at my side, "Whhhhaaaaaatt.....it's genetic and you've got them RIGHT there! What am I to do!?"

I'm almost 40 and despite seeing them over the years, I'm still like an 18 yr old.

My wife reminds me of that daily  lol

I told her maturity wise, maybe 23....maybe.. 

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Digikid said:


> This will make you feel better....
> 
> :lmao:beejacon


Lucky kittens.


----------



## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

hayesk said:


> Wow - you really didn't get the point. We're not talking about being looked at, we're talking about rape here. The point is that women can and should be able to dress however they want, and under absolutely no circumstances should it even been told or thought that their choice of dress was the fault they were raped. When a cop stands up and says that, that sends the message that women who dress more conservatively are going to get looked after more than one who dressed more revealing. Under no circumstances should that ever happen.
> 
> Imagine if you were raped and a cop told you or you even overheard one cop tell another "she shouldn't have dressed that way." Should you even be made to thought that you being raped was your fault? This is about blaming the victim, plain and simple. That should never happen.


I did get the point. I do not condone rape for any reason; and I second Fijnmusic's comment about nobody deserving to be raped for any reason. It is not about blaming the victim, but about what people can do to reduce the risk. My comment was more to the point that women could take some steps to at least reduce the temptation and risk. 

I know the following analogy is nowhere in the same magnitude as rape, but what you are saying is like saying "I should be able to leave my car unlocked with lots of valuables in plain sight and no one should steal anything from my car." Or, the insurance company should not blame me for leaving my car unlocked, etc. Should I even be made to think that my being robbed was my fault? The least I can do is hide the valuables and lock my car; thus reducing the temptation and the risk - that was my point.

Cheers


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

tilt said:


> I did get the point. I do not condone rape for any reason; and I second Fijnmusic's comment about nobody deserving to be raped for any reason. It is not about blaming the victim, but about what people can do to reduce the risk. My comment was more to the point that women could take some steps to at least reduce the temptation and risk.
> 
> I know the following analogy is nowhere in the same magnitude as rape, but what you are saying is like saying "I should be able to leave my car unlocked with lots of valuables in plain sight and no one should steal anything from my car." Or, the insurance company should not blame me for leaving my car unlocked, etc. Should I even be made to think that my being robbed was my fault? The least I can do is hide the valuables and lock my car; thus reducing the temptation and the risk - that was my point.
> 
> Cheers


Gotta say tilt your post still comes across as being apologetic towards rapists.... "Rape" has been for some time now in this country classified as an an act of violence, i.e. sexual assault and in fact in so doing has put the blame squarely on the on the offender....

All these posts saying "rape is bad, no excuse" but women should "protect" themselves etc. are in effect diminishing the responsibility of the culprit and putting part of the blame on the victim. Pure and simple, there is no denying it.

There is not even any excuse for a prostitute to be a victim of sexual assault... That is like saying to a retailer, well you are in business, you should expect to be a victim of credit card fraud.

Put the blame where it lies and don't make ANY sort of excuse for the criminal.


----------



## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

screature said:


> Gotta say tilt your post still comes across as being apologetic towards rapists....


That, certainly was not my intention, of course; though I see how it can be perceived as such.

Anyway, I'll let this thread get back on topic...

Cheers


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

tilt said:


> That, certainly was not my intention, of course; though I see how it can be perceived as such.
> 
> Anyway, I'll let this thread get back on topic...
> 
> Cheers


I know it wasn't your intention tilt... From your previous posts I know you are a good egg... It is just a "tricky" (ohh, is that a pun... ) subject... as Dr. G. would say... Paix mon ami.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

tilt said:


> I did get the point. I do not condone rape for any reason; and I second Fijnmusic's comment about nobody deserving to be raped for any reason. It is not about blaming the victim, but about what people can do to reduce the risk. My comment was more to the point that women could take some steps to at least reduce the temptation and risk.
> 
> I know the following analogy is nowhere in the same magnitude as rape, but what you are saying is like saying "I should be able to leave my car unlocked with lots of valuables in plain sight and no one should steal anything from my car." Or, the insurance company should not blame me for leaving my car unlocked, etc. Should I even be made to think that my being robbed was my fault? The least I can do is hide the valuables and lock my car; thus reducing the temptation and the risk - that was my point.
> 
> Cheers


+1

Theft is wrong too, but we aren't completely surprised when cars get broken into in rough or poorly policed neighborhoods. If you don't want your iPhone stolen, you keep it in your pocket. 

I emphasize again: no one deserves to be raped, and the clothing or lack thereof of the victim does not entitle the perpetrator to any kind of contact whatsoever. Strippers walk a fine line in this respect; look but no touchy. Lap dancers sort of cross that line though. Males of this species are pretty much hardwired to look at even the slightest hint of skin, so if women don't want us looking, they should definitely not be advertising. I'm certain that in most cases, those who dress provocatively WANT people to look for whatever reason and shouldn't be at all surprised when people do. That's look, however, not touch.

Now to help put things into perspective, here's The Problem With Jeggings.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Wow, seven pages! Did this at least get your minds off the heat?

A word about rape. I hope things are changing but we've all heard the horror stories where the rape victim was asked to prove she vigorously resisted the attack.

I think that attitude harkened back to a time when women were the property of male relatives and it was her duty to protect her virtue so as not to devalue that property.

Sadly, I suspect this attitude persists.

If I were to take Sinc behind the barn and beat him senseless, nobody would ask him to prove he fought back. If the roles were reversed and Sinc in a weak moment decided to have his way with me, as sure as I'm a foot tall, I would be in court explaining how many times I said no and how energetically I tried to gouge out his eyes.

As for clothing, I'm in the "don't advertise what you don't want to sell" camp.

I've been wearing clothes for a long time and for most of my life, I kept up with what passed for fashion. Most of it was uncomfortable for the wearer. This trend toward more exposure looks uncomfortable for the wearer and makes the audience uncomfortable as well.

I'm not a prude and I admire members of the opposite sex. A man in a hard hat, coveralls and work boots will rate a second look, but I just want to throw a towel over a guy in a speedo.

Margaret


----------



## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

In Saudi Arabia and other countries where men are in 'control', women are supposed to cover up so that they don't 'tempt' men. It takes all the responsibility for the actions off the men and places it on the women. She is 'responsible' because she dressed provocatively or was in the 'wrong neighbourhood'. Furthermore, in these countries women have no rights, aside from the rights of whoever they belong to. If a woman is raped, she cannot press charges. The police will not prosecute on her behalf. But, a male relative - husband, father, or closest male relative (in some cases the victim's son, if she is a widow) can instigate charges - because the woman belonging to him has been 'damaged'.

Telling women to 'cover up' because men cannot control their urges at the sight of a breast or a leg is where this is going. If all women covered up equally, would rape disappear?

As I said before - put the responsibility on the person who violates the rights of others. I should be able to walk buck naked down the street without someone thinking they have the 'RIGHT' to molest me.

Besides which, rape isn't about sex. It's about power. Rules about who needs to 'cover up' are all about power, not about sex.

I would also appreciate it if the Neanderthals here would quite objectifying women. That's what you're doing when you're comparing rape with theft from an 'unlocked car'.

Colour me disgusted.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

winwintoo said:


> Wow, seven pages! Did this at least get your minds off the heat?...
> 
> As for clothing, I'm in the "don't advertise what you don't want to sell" camp.
> 
> ...


Once again... to each their own... live and let live... One person's erotica is another person's porn... etc., etc...

I think 8 pages in and this horse has been pretty much flogged to death... we all know where each other stands and we aren't about to change anyone's mind.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

MLeh said:


> In Saudi Arabia and other countries where men are in 'control', women are supposed to cover up so that they don't 'tempt' men. *It takes all the responsibility for the actions off the men and places it on the women. She is 'responsible' because she dressed provocatively or was in the 'wrong neighbourhood'.* Furthermore, in these countries women have no rights, aside from the rights of whoever they belong to. If a woman is raped, she cannot press charges. The police will not prosecute on her behalf. But, a male relative - husband, father, or closest male relative (in some cases the victim's son, if she is a widow) can instigate charges - because the woman belonging to him has been 'damaged'.
> 
> *Telling women to 'cover up' because men cannot control their urges at the sight of a breast or a leg is where this is going. If all women covered up equally, would rape disappear?*
> 
> ...


Ohh what the hell... one more post...

+100%... I was going to say to those who seem to want to say that women are somehow culpable in their being raped due to the way they are dressed... lets take a look at Muslim society for a reality check.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

MLeh, couldn't have said it better if I tried.........


----------



## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

MLeh said:


> I would also appreciate it if the Neanderthals here would quite objectifying women. That's what you're doing when you're comparing rape with theft from an 'unlocked car'.
> 
> Colour me disgusted.


MLeh, please do not club everyone else here with me. I am the only neanderthal here, since I am the only one who brought up that analogy.

Cheers


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

MLeh said:


> In Saudi Arabia and other countries where men are in 'control', women are supposed to cover up so that they don't 'tempt' men. It takes all the responsibility for the actions off the men and places it on the women. She is 'responsible' because she dressed provocatively or was in the 'wrong neighbourhood'. Furthermore, in these countries women have no rights, aside from the rights of whoever they belong to. If a woman is raped, she cannot press charges. The police will not prosecute on her behalf. But, a male relative - husband, father, or closest male relative (in some cases the victim's son, if she is a widow) can instigate charges - because the woman belonging to him has been 'damaged'.
> 
> Telling women to 'cover up' because men cannot control their urges at the sight of a breast or a leg is where this is going. If all women covered up equally, would rape disappear?
> 
> ...


Good points. Plus you can cover a lot of bruises with a burka.


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

MLeh said:


> In Saudi Arabia and other countries where men are in 'control', women are supposed to cover up so that they don't 'tempt' men.


How is that in principle any different than:
In Canada and other countries where men are in 'control', women are supposed to cover up their breasts so that they don't 'tempt' men.

And then there are native tribes around the world where women don't cover up their breasts - are you saying that men there are "not in control"?

Strange logic


----------



## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

fjnmusic said:


> +1
> 
> 
> Now to help put things into perspective, here's The Problem With Jeggings.


Awesome.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

krs said:


> How is that in principle any different than:
> In Canada and other countries where men are in 'control', women are supposed to cover up their breasts so that they don't 'tempt' men.


Where is this? In Ontario women don't have to cover their breasts. They can go topless, as long as it's not for sexual reasons (prostitution). It has to be for comfort (ie. it's too hot to wear a shirt).

What I get a laugh at, is when women wear short skirts and are always tugging at their short skirt to pull it down! If it's too short, don't wear it! Get something longer.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Kosh said:


> Where is this? In Ontario women don't have to cover their breasts. They can go topless, as long as it's not for sexual reasons (prostitution). It has to be for comfort (ie. it's too hot to wear a shirt).
> 
> What I get a laugh at, is when women wear short skirts and are always tugging at their short skirt to pull it down! If it's too short, don't wear it! Get something longer.


Seriously? Anywhere on Ontario? PICS or it didn't happen.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Sorry, no pics.

Here's the story behind it... http://www.yorku.ca/lfoster/2010-11...men_Top_Free_Rights_Entrenched_in_Ontario.htm

I'm sure if you look around the net, though, you can find some of the rallies they held.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Kosh said:


> Sorry, no pics.
> 
> Here's the story behind it... http://www.yorku.ca/lfoster/2010-11...men_Top_Free_Rights_Entrenched_in_Ontario.htm
> 
> I'm sure if you look around the net, though, you can find some of the rallies they held.


Ah yes, the fight for the rights of naturalists. Sounds admirable. So for the record, here's a picture of Gwen Jacob and a cartoon of the very rights she stood for.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Kosh said:


> What I get a laugh at, is when women wear short skirts and are always tugging at their short skirt to pull it down! If it's too short, don't wear it! Get something longer.


Actually, that's not always the reason... or rather, not precisely the reason.

I have a knee-length demin pencil skirt that has a tendency to ride upwards as I'm moving around, sitting, standing, etc., during the day. While it covers me perfectly decently when it does ride up, it's really not comfortable to have waistband of my skirt sitting so high above my actual waist, so I keep tugging it back down. 

What can I say, it looks good, but it's not so perfectly tailored so that it doesn't do this...


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

krs said:


> How is that in principle any different than:
> In Canada and other countries where men are in 'control', women are supposed to cover up their breasts so that they don't 'tempt' men.
> 
> And then there are native tribes around the world where women don't cover up their breasts - are you saying that men there are "not in control"?
> ...


Well I think it is a matter of degrees... men can't run around with their penis' hanging out either. 

But your point is well taken, it is all a matter of what is considered to be socially acceptable... 

In ancient Minoa it was the societal norm for women to proudly display their naked breasts.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

MLeh said:


> As I said before - put the responsibility on the person who violates the rights of others. I should be able to walk buck naked down the street without someone thinking they have the 'RIGHT' to molest me.


No matter what our societal norms on fashion and such, MLeh, in my opinion stated it best in a prior post as noted above.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

fjnmusic said:


> Ah yes, the fight for the rights of naturalists. Sounds admirable. So for the record, here's a picture of Gwen Jacob and a cartoon of the very rights she stood for.


Good old Gwen! Long time no see.

I have a funny story about Gwen Jacob. At the time, I was the editor of The Ontarion, University of Guelph's largest and oldest student newspaper. Gwen came in one day and said she'd just been arrested a few hours before. She had her shirt back on by then, natch. Most of us at the paper and in the more politically active student body knew her fairly well already, as she frequented the second floor of the student centre, where politics and the press were forever in a frothy churn. She very much wanted me to write a story straight away and put it in the news section for the following Monday's paper. I felt affronted - as if Gwen was manufacturing the news, staging something for political purposes. I felt that it was not something I wanted to encourage. I told her "that's not news, Gwen." When I think about it now I have to laugh.

Well, in a matter of days it _was_ news - national news. Print, radio, TV - the works. Thereafter Gwen used to rib me, calling me "no news Max" but she was a very good sport about it. When I was still on Facebook she friended me last year and said that she had recently been back to Moo U with her teen-aged daughter who was almost the same age as Gwen when she removed her shirt that blazingly hot summer day - they had returned to the scene of the drama to commemorate her little topless stroll down Gordon Street and the repercussions which followed.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Agreed. The issue, I think, is that we often quote this culture does this and that culture does that, but the truth is we live in our culture, so we must be governed by the rules of etiquette of where we live. Now, things have certainly changed over the years in what is acceptable and culture is always evolving, but when one looks at pictures from the prior centuries it was the "expectation" of see a woman's breast that is so evident in the fashions of the wealthy. Today we've moved from expectation to flaunting. So to get back on track with this thread, the answer is cleavage has always been a fashion statement in one form or another.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

tilt said:


> I did get the point. I do not condone rape for any reason; and I second Fijnmusic's comment about nobody deserving to be raped for any reason. It is not about blaming the victim, but about what people can do to reduce the risk. My comment was more to the point that women could take some steps to at least reduce the temptation and risk.


But that wasn't at all the point. The point is not about mitigating risk. That may be what the cop intended, but it isn't at all was was conveyed with his remark. The point is about police demonstrating (even if unintended) the attitude that you will not get helped as much as someone who dressed conservatively; and it conveys the attitude that the blame lies partly with the victim.


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

hayesk said:


> But that wasn't at all the point. The point is not about mitigating risk. That may be what the cop intended, but it isn't at all was was conveyed with his remark. The point is about police demonstrating (even if unintended) the attitude that you will not get helped as much as someone who dressed conservatively; and it conveys the attitude that the blame lies partly with the victim.


I'm sure the cop who made those remarks did so because he believed that they might mitigate risk. There definitely should not be any blame whatsoever on the victim of sexual assault. The difficulty is that if you make any suggestions to mitigate risk they can easily be construed as blaming the victim. Is it possible to tell a woman to not walk down a dark alley by themselves without sounding like blaming a woman who was attacked for doing that same thing. It is a very delicate thing.

As for cleavage, tasteful is best, but whatever the woman feel comfortable in is fine, but if you are flaunting it, expect to be noticed.


----------



## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

jwootton said:


> I'm sure the cop who made those remarks did so because he believed that they might mitigate risk.


It mitigates risk for the _individual_, perhaps, but doesn't mitigate total risk to the total population from the offender. Comes down, again, to blaming the individual victim for being in 'the wrong place' 'at the wrong time' or 'dressed inappropriately' when it is the 100% the fault of the perpetrator of the crime.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I enjoyed that anecdote, Max.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Clearly popular in certain sports circles......

PSA: A New, Nameless Hot Paraguay Soccer Fan Has Burst Onto the Scene - BroBible.com


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Clearly popular in certain sports circles......
> 
> PSA: A New, Nameless Hot Paraguay Soccer Fan Has Burst Onto the Scene - BroBible.com


I dunno. That banana in the last picture looks pretty ripe.


----------



## kempclint (Jul 6, 2011)

does the world cant leave without those cleavage? how about those flat chested women,,, it started the moment we are born naked... lol


----------



## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Old people and women complaining about cleavage... nothing new. If you don't like it, don't look.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

^^^
Now why do I think that post will cause some reaction?


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Clearly popular in certain sports circles......
> 
> PSA: A New, Nameless Hot Paraguay Soccer Fan Has Burst Onto the Scene - BroBible.com


Go Paraguay!


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

You know, after reading through this thread and seeing these thoughts echoed in other places, I do have to laugh. I think it's clear to everyone that different people find different styles and amounts of exposure sexy and not. But what I find it's amusing is those who portray the attitude that they're somehow more sophisticated if their tastes are "above" the norm. Not necessarily here, but other places too. If more mystery (i.e. coverage) is sexy to you, then great. Just so long as you don't think you're any better than someone who likes to see just about everything hang out. Some like to leave things to their imagination, others like to see it right before them.

As for me, confidence and attitude go a long way, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to physical appearance as well.


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Personally, I like cleavage. Makes me proud to be a mammal 

And I'll go further to suggest that cultures that require women to be more modest in their attire are simply compensating for the fact that a significant number of men find it difficult to control themselves when stimulated by an attractive young woman. That should be treated as a problem for the men, not the women. Everyone needs to control themselves. If people don't learn to resist the temptation to grab tasty food from displays without paying for it, they're treated as criminals, as they should be. We need to recognize that men who can't control their impulses when faced with attractive women are no better and stop making excuses for them. The solution is not to cover up the women, but rather to train the men better.


----------



## friend (Nov 14, 2009)

Probably the very day Grover Cleavage became president.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

bryanc said:


> Personally, I like cleavage. Makes me proud to be a mammal
> 
> And I'll go further to suggest that cultures that require women to be more modest in their attire are simply compensating for the fact that a significant number of men find it difficult to control themselves when stimulated by an attractive young woman. That should be treated as a problem for the men, not the women. Everyone needs to control themselves. If people don't learn to resist the temptation to grab tasty food from displays without paying for it, they're treated as criminals, as they should be. We need to recognize that men who can't control their impulses when faced with attractive women are no better and stop making excuses for them. The solution is not to cover up the women, but rather to train the men better.


You're absolutely right. In fact, why shouldn't everyone be allowed to walk around naked if that's what they want to do? Check out the dude in the top corner, for example.


----------

