# Time Base Correction in PCI card?



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Have been having repeated grief with input cards and DVD-HD recorders which assume all sorts of weak signals are MacroVision protection. I am trying to digitize a large number of archival recordings and have been told that only a Time Base Corrector will allow the signal to be processed without alerting the MacroVision police.

I had to get rid of a Canopus card which blue-screened half of the first recordings I attempted.

Was looking at this line of products which claimed to offer TBC:

AJA Kona-LHe 12-Bit HD/SD Video PCIe Capture Card KONA LHE B&H

Any opinion as to whether it will do as I ask on weak broadcast signals recorded to VHS?


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

You're trying to archive onto DVD from VHS or some other analog format? Is that right? Or you're attempting to ingest from a DVD onto the computer? I'm confused.

Surely there's someone in Toronto that rents TBCs...? Vistek?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Yes, from VHS to DVD--or to any electronic format, then to DVD. But the source is over-the-air signals often with poor reception. The rental on most equipment wouldn't work for me because the project will take a few months.


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

Ok, I have an idea. And if you were willing to pay $1000 on a Kona LHe to achieve this, hopefully this isn't out of your price range.

See if you can find a used S-VHS industrial VTR. A lot of the Panasonic ones I remember using back in the day had built-in TBCs, which would sort out wonky & inconsistent signals off the tape. Depending on the model of VTR, you could use one of those inexpensive Canopus ADC boxes or go up, and provide component video & balanced audio outputs to something higher end, like the aforementioned Kona LHe.

A cursory examination of Kijiji indicates a Panny AG 7750 with a TBC board in Clinton, Ontario for $900.

That's my best guess. Give it a few more years and trying to salvage video off old VHS tapes will be more like an expensive and frustrating art form than anything else.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Ha! Not willing to spend $1,000, but i have seen them used. Unfortunately the one I was interested in turned out to be a PCI-X version. But your suggestion is a good one. I just saw an Panasonic VHS editing deck a little closer to home with TBC for $400. Appreciate the input!


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

My pleasure, let me know how it turns out. If you really get in a bind with the ingest process, drop me a PM. I've got a LHe card and even though I'm in Hamilton, I could help you troubleshoot the ingest.

BTW, what's your process for the ingest stage? Are you using something like FCP or FCE (or, god forbid, FCPX)? I'd be interested to know what codec you want to capture to in order to archive this material.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

No chance of using an external clock for the source? When I've had troubles in the past I was able to lock to my external MOTU MTP AV ( MOTU.com - MIDI Timepiece AV Overview ) and then just did blind capture and the problems went away.


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

That's a good point. The built in TBC on the deck still may need a signal to lock the time base to, depending on the kind of interface between the deck & the Mac. Trial and error is probably the only way to go (unless you've got a sync pulse generator handy).

I guess in theory you could use any composite video signal as a "reference" signal, connected to the deck's reference in BNC connector.

It's been a looooong time since I've had to "time" a video system in this manner, since my edit suite at home is all using bi-level sync.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

jellotor said:


> That's a good point. The built in TBC on the deck still may need a signal to lock the time base to, depending on the kind of interface between the deck & the Mac. Trial and error is probably the only way to go (unless you've got a sync pulse generator handy).
> 
> I guess in theory you could use any composite video signal as a "reference" signal, connected to the deck's reference in BNC connector.
> 
> It's been a looooong time since I've had to "time" a video system in this manner, since my edit suite at home is all using bi-level sync.


The MTP AV generates "genlock" (there's a term I don't hear too often any longer). I use it to sync all of my digital audio gear, but it has come in handy a couple of times with video gear as well. If your deck supports external genlock or something similar you might get away with renting something like this MacFury ... but as jellotor says it's going to be trial and error until you find the right combination.


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

And, I should also add, if you do need to do genlock and timing adjustments, you're going to need some sort of oscilloscope, preferably a waveform monitor. (I'm not sure if an actual oscilloscope can be set to display a field or two of NTSC video or not. Always used waveform monitors myself.)

There's a reason why this stuff (even copies from VHS) was left to dub houses with piles of gear back in the day. It can get messy.

My first step would be to acquire the deck and an A/D (FireWire) converter and see if the signal is synchronized, stable enough and "capturable" in the first place.

If there's a sync problem, introduce a reference signal for the deck and, if possible, the digitizing interface (like a Kona board). If there's a reference loop-thru on the deck, you could use that to distribute sync. If there's still sync issues, then you're going to need to manually time the deck & the capture hardware to the sync source, which is when you need the waveform monitor.

With a bit of luck, a simple A/D converter (like Canopus) will capture fields regardless of timing...ignoring the need for a genlockable signal. The TBC/framesync in the deck would just exist to stabilize your weak signal off the tape for playback. I would be more wary of a more complicated capture device like the Kona requiring a steady and common sync signal.

Sorry about the essay.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Thank god I don't do any more analogue video, which I did for about 10 years... this kind of s**t drove me crazy... In addition to many, many other things... digital video has hoops that you have to jump through as well but somehow they seem less "ominous", or at least time consuming.... I spent, on more than a couple of occasions taking more than 24hrs on the final edit on videos that were under 10 minutes long, and I am talking videos that had been story boarded, not going on the fly....

I was young and eager then and didn't care about the time... it would probably kill me now.


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

Well, that's very true, it was all fairly frustrating. My first ten or so years in the biz taught me a lot about the weird intricacies of analog NTSC video. I did a fair number of shoots for the community channel where I worked where knowing how all of that stuff timed saved my rear...now I deal in analog composite video ALL the time and it's valuable for me to remember all of those details, even if I never have to time a system ever again!

Kind of like how editing with a BVE-2000 taught me some discipline before I graduated to AVID and FCP. Wouldn't trade that experience (or my limited experiences cutting film on a Steenbeck) for anything...ever.

Unfortunately, my usual advice ("Get it off the tape ASAP!") is at least half of what Macfury's problem is.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

I don't regret learning any of the old school stuff either, but I think if I had to go back to non-linear editing/shuttling tape all the time I would lose my mind  Brings back bad memories hehe.


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

I, unfortunately, spend 40 hours a week in my day job still operating tape machines. And editing from a tape machine. To another tape machine. With a PVE-500. Our company has no plans, apparently, to upgrade.

Good thing you're not here!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

jellotor said:


> I, unfortunately, spend 40 hours a week in my day job still operating tape machines. And editing from a tape machine. To another tape machine. With a PVE-500. Our company has no plans, apparently, to upgrade.
> 
> Good thing you're not here!


Well I guess if it paid by the hour it might not be as bad ...  I remember a very very early non-linear editing system at school and being so amazed that you didn't have to wait all that time to get to where you wanted to, now when it's not like that I distress  I did a lot of shooting/editing on a 3/4" deck with a tube camera back in the day. Heavy stuff but the quality was great.


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

It pays by the hour, and it's a good thing. Some of the people we work with are accustomed to more modern equipment...and I feel as though we're operating in some sort of bizarre parallel universe when I'm told "what do you mean you can't dissolve between the two shots? I can do that with iMovie on my phone!" Especially when it's true.

I had a Hitachi C1 for a few years...I didn't have a 3/4" Umatic deck to shoot with, so it was more of a museum piece but, yes, 3/4" Umatic looked great...with enough light. The C1 was I think one of Hitachi's first CCD cameras...I can't remember what the tube model was called, but I still have a prism block I pulled out of a decomissioned one somewhere. I wanted to make it into a keychain but the corners were a bit too sharp to be put in a pocket.

I remember at school doing an offline edit on the AVID (PM 8100) and exporting an EDL, then watching the A/B roll edit suite (BVE 900) automatically reassemble the piece, with dissolves, at full resolution. I don't care what anyone says, that's still wicked cool when it works. The key being the "when it works."


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Hey, jellotor, part of what I'm doing is archiving some old U-Matic stuff! I bought a SONY deck last year for that.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2011)

jellotor said:


> It pays by the hour, and it's a good thing. Some of the people we work with are accustomed to more modern equipment...and I feel as though we're operating in some sort of bizarre parallel universe when I'm told "what do you mean you can't dissolve between the two shots? I can do that with iMovie on my phone!" Especially when it's true.


Yes, and they can shoot and edit it natively in 720p on the right phone as well. Insane where this tech has gone in the last couple of decades.



> I had a Hitachi C1 for a few years...I didn't have a 3/4" Umatic deck to shoot with, so it was more of a museum piece but, yes, 3/4" Umatic looked great...with enough light. The C1 was I think one of Hitachi's first CCD cameras...I can't remember what the tube model was called, but I still have a prism block I pulled out of a decomissioned one somewhere. I wanted to make it into a keychain but the corners were a bit too sharp to be put in a pocket.
> 
> I remember at school doing an offline edit on the AVID (PM 8100) and exporting an EDL, then watching the A/B roll edit suite (BVE 900) automatically reassemble the piece, with dissolves, at full resolution. I don't care what anyone says, that's still wicked cool when it works. The key being the "when it works."


LOL I hear the "when it works" part. I don't remember which brands the gear was but I do remember carrying it around for the ENG parts of my course. Between the camera, battery pack (external) and deck (external) along with another battery belt for a sun gun .. it was like putting on a space suit or something.

I think I did school a few years before you, at the time I was taking this had a brand-new just released LC 475 and we were still editing with decks and for the live broadcast stuff we had a toaster. Our main "graphics" class (what a joke) was on handful of amiga 500's. I spent more time correcting the teacher than I did learning things in that class sadly, after everything he'd say "Right Mark?" (because he knew I was a computer geek and he knew he was not).


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Hey, jellotor, part of what I'm doing is archiving some old U-Matic stuff! I bought a SONY deck last year for that.


And is everything working ok with the Umatic dubs? I have the luxury (?) of a working Umatic machine at work that is permanently set up to dub to DVCAM, which kind of seems like throwing away a lot of good bandwidth, but it does work quite well for the few 3/4" Umatic tapes I've had to rescue. And I can ingest DVCAM without any hassles at all.


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

mguertin said:


> Yes, and they can shoot and edit it natively in 720p on the right phone as well. Insane where this tech has gone in the last couple of decades.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I started college in 98. I'm thinking in my first year there might have been a Video Toaster as our CG, but I don't really recall. I know eventually the school went with Inscribers as CGs for live to tape stuff, but by that point I had enough of Inscriber as a company and a piece of software and was really doing more EFP work then, which was all FCP2 and AVID, using Panny DVCPRO cameras.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

jellotor said:


> *I started college in 98*. I'm thinking in my first year there might have been a Video Toaster as our CG, but I don't really recall. I know eventually the school went with Inscribers as CGs for live to tape stuff, but by that point I had enough of Inscriber as a company and a piece of software and was really doing more EFP work then, which was all FCP2 and AVID, using Panny DVCPRO cameras.


98 is when I got out of the business, so you were coming in when things were starting to get a lot easier. 

We had the Video Toaster and then moved on to a German product called the Video Machine and then eventually the digital Video Machine with 2x SCSI HD's that we used for the Video Machine were 10GB and $1500 each. We were still shooting tape but digitizing to make the editing process faster.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2011)

jellotor said:


> I started college in 98. I'm thinking in my first year there might have been a Video Toaster as our CG, but I don't really recall. I know eventually the school went with Inscribers as CGs for live to tape stuff, but by that point I had enough of Inscriber as a company and a piece of software and was really doing more EFP work then, which was all FCP2 and AVID, using Panny DVCPRO cameras.


Yep I started (as an adult student) in 94.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

In school, I was shown the last of the 2-inch reel to reels as a working example of current technology. You could spin the reels by hand if you wanted, but it had the frame by frame jog control as well.

jellotor, the U-matic sources are pretty good and I only have a few of them--they digitize real good!


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

Still have at least one 1" machine here. Can't recall the model name, but it's a Sony. There was a 2" VTR in the basement for a long time, but we've gone through a few purges.

Macfury, at least you're not dealing with MII tape at this point. Or are you? Talk about a piece of crap. The decks were MASSIVE and the ones I used were always having some issue with leaky caps, bad heads, alignment problems, etc etc etc.

I still deal a lot with BetacamSP and as much nostalgia I get for old analog gear, it doesn't age well. Especially with our cheap, cheap Betacam tape stock we bought back in the day.

I still have a BVW-400 camera. Works great, looks good when well lit. A recurring theme in the last few posts.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Well, I bought my external Time Base Corrector, a DPS-270 from Digital Processing Systems for $20, though hooking it up has been a nightmare--it uses an obscure 7-pin SVHS connector combined with BNCs. However, I don't understand the wiring diagram supplied. 

I get how the output from the VCR goes into the TBC and out, but not why there are "ADVANCED SYNC's" and "3.58 OUT" lines returning to the TBC. Can anyone shed some light?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mguertin explained that the old style TBCs required a complete loop.


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## jellotor (Feb 22, 2008)

Sounds about right. You could try just connecting the advanced sync output from the TBC to the REF IN on the deck.


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