# Canada Post Theft! Help Needed Please!



## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Hi everyone, long story: My mother went last Wednesday to send US$300 off to a relative's funeral. She placed cash in the envelope (stupid, yes; but the widow that she was sending it to is bedridden and she thought that it would be easier for her to just receive cash) and asked the Canada Post (CP) employee what was the fastest way to send it to CA?

The person said Purolator. So, they took a Purolator envelope and put her envelope inside. They asked her what it was and she told them. They wrote down on a label that it was "$300 money" and on another label they put down her address and where it was going.

Next day, someone called her up and asked her what was inside. She told them and they said that they could not send cash down to the US. They were going to return it to her.

She received everything back in another envelope (according to Canada Post it was an envelope and according to my mother it's a plastic bag - sort of like those Russian nesting dolls) and upon opening everything realized that her original envelope was all re-sealed with packing tape. Uh-oh. Yep, money all gone!

The original Purolator envelope also looked a bit "bulgey" and it had tape re-sealing it.

She took it back to the branch and they tried to call this Mailtrace lady several times. No answer. In any case, I finally got a hold of her and she says:

A. She called my mother to confirm what was inside.
B. She did not know that it was a CP employee who labeled it as "$300 money".
C. She had seen the package and, along with her supervisor, decided that it was untampered with. I guess they missed the tape re-sealing it again! 

The file has been sent over to Security and Investigative Services who will call me back. There will be no refund.

Of course, I'm not happy about this. I told her that CP was responsible for the contents because:

A. CP employee(s) knew that it was $300 cash and they still accepted the shipment despite it being against shipping policies.
B. CP employee(s) were the ones who wrote and labeled the contents. Were they red-flagging it for theft?
C. CP employee(s) should have caught the fact that the Purolator envelope had been tampered with.

I asked her what was the point of their investigating it any further? That this would be simply another statistic?

I asked her if they fingerprinted everyone at Purolator and she wouldn't tell me. I told her that when I worked at UPS they fingerprinted everyone so I figure that the policy is the same. Does anyone here work at CP or Purolator or know of someone at CP and can tell me?

Should I call the cops? She said to wait until their investigation was done. What should be my course of action now?

Any suggestions appreciated because I would like every bit of ammo going into my war with CP.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I hope you get your money back... but I think in the end just think of this as lesson learned. At least it was only $300. Sorry.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

I'm afraid you're going to be out of luck 
"THE AMOUNT OF ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE FOR WHICH PUROLATOR MAY BE LIABLE, WHETHER OR NOT THE LOSS OR DAMAGE RESULTS FROM GROSS NEGLIGENCE, SHALL NOT EXCEED CDN $4.41 PER KILOGRAM (OR CDN $2.00 PER POUND) COMPUTED ON THE TOTAL WEIGHT OF THE SHIPMENT, UNLESS A HIGHER VALUE (FOR PUROLATOR LIABILITY PURPOSES) IS DECLARED IN THE APPROPRIATE BOX ON THE FACE OF THE BILL OF LADING, OR, IN THE CASE OF SHIPMENTS TENDERED VIA PUROLATOR’S AUTOMATED SHIPPING SOFTWARE OR PUROLATOR ONLINE SHIPPING, IN THE SPECIALLY MARKED USER ENTRY FIELD, “DECLARED VALUE FOR INSURANCE($)”"

Unless she bought optional insurance on the package for $300

"PROHIBITED SHIPMENTS – DOMESTIC DESTINATIONS
The following items will not be accepted by Purolator for shipment within Canada:
(d) Cash, bonds, stocks or other negotiable securities."

Yeah, they should have just told Mom that they couldn't accept the shipment in the first place . But they cover themselves by the "whether or not it was gross negligence" clause.

They can also argue right back that there is no proof that there was actually money in the original package -- that Mom may have send a bundle of looseleaf paper, with the intent to make a claim.

Not hopeful of recovery for you, unfortunately.

Note to self: Never write on the outside that the contents are cash or negotiable.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

CanadaRAM said:


> I'm afraid you're going to be out of luck
> "THE AMOUNT OF ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE FOR WHICH PUROLATOR MAY BE LIABLE, WHETHER OR NOT THE LOSS OR DAMAGE RESULTS FROM GROSS NEGLIGENCE, SHALL NOT EXCEED CDN $4.41 PER KILOGRAM (OR CDN $2.00 PER POUND) COMPUTED ON THE TOTAL WEIGHT OF THE SHIPMENT, UNLESS A HIGHER VALUE (FOR PUROLATOR LIABILITY PURPOSES) IS DECLARED IN THE APPROPRIATE BOX ON THE FACE OF THE BILL OF LADING, OR, IN THE CASE OF SHIPMENTS TENDERED VIA PUROLATOR’S AUTOMATED SHIPPING SOFTWARE OR PUROLATOR ONLINE SHIPPING, IN THE SPECIALLY MARKED USER ENTRY FIELD, “DECLARED VALUE FOR INSURANCE($)”"
> 
> Unless she bought optional insurance on the package for $300
> ...


Actually, they were the ones who wrote what the contents were...not my mother. To my mind, that's not gross negligence but deliberate theft. 

I'm not too hopeful of getting the money back but I intend to put up a very good fight for it. If possible, I want to see if the package can be dusted for fingerprints...especially on the tape that was used to re-seal both envelopes.


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## nino (May 29, 2005)

purolator is mostly owned by canada post but i believe its run seperately. check the tracking to see where it was received.


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## nino (May 29, 2005)

does it not come with at least 100 dollar insurance like expresspost


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

nino said:


> purolator is mostly owned by canada post but i believe its run seperately. check the tracking to see where it was received.


It never left the depot. So far as I can tell, the driver must have picked it up from the branch...flagged it as having cash and turned it in.

Nope, no mention of any sort of insurance...$100 or otherwise.


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## VVA88IT (Aug 21, 2005)

Just a suggestion, If your mom is not camera shy, may be one of the TV station reporter may be willing to do an interest story on this. After all, it has all the making of a David v. Golliath type of story that the tv ... elderly woman being taken advantage off by Canada Post ... and sending money to a funeral of all things.

Worth a try.


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## nino (May 29, 2005)

if a driver notices it damaged he must get sealed and signed by a supervisor to cover himself. it might be a starting point.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

VVA88IT said:


> Just a suggestion, If your mom is not camera shy, may be one of the TV station reporter may be willing to do an interest story on this. After all, it has all the making of a David v. Golliath type of story that the tv ... elderly woman being taken advantage off by Canada Post ... and sending money to a funeral of all things.
> 
> Worth a try.


We'd thought of that but she's effectively by herself in Montreal and she doesn't speak English. 

This is the sort of story that would make my blood boil even if she wasn't my mother. Elderly pensioner who doesn't understand English very well...needs to send money to a relative for a funeral...CP staff suggest a service and then steals it all.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

nino said:


> if a driver notices it damaged he must get sealed and signed by a supervisor to cover himself. it might be a starting point.


We're trying to figure out who stole the money. Was it the counterperson who labeled it? Was it the Mailtrace person who called up and said that the package seemed undamaged yet it arrived at our place with tape?

I don't know if CP's Security and Investigative Service is going to do anything about this or are they simply going to log it as a theft. They'd better not be doing the latter because there is certainly enough material here for them to find out who did it. The number of hands that this package went through is pretty low.


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## shoe (Apr 6, 2005)

From my experiences working as a courier and with other courier companies and to top it off on a canada post contract for a building downtown, id maybe sugest you ask for the log of people that handled the pacage, at canada post and purolator every item is scanned in and signed by the person that signed for it from the person at the window to the person loading the truck to the delivery person and finally the person that recied for the pacage. Each scan should come with a destination and a time then signed off.

PS dont give up on your fight, but dont be rude or yell and scream, Canada post people have a low tollerance for "crap" from outside they like to do their job as quick as they can and go home.

I hope that helps

Shoe


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Really ignorant of you to blame the counter person of stealing your money. Gross ignorance yes you could blame them for that. I feel sorry that you and your mom have to go through with this, I hope that the slightest chance you could get the money back comes true, but don't start playing the blame game, if you can't get it back, live and learn. Use money transfer or wire services next time...


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## QueenOfTheAbyss (May 15, 2004)

Unfortunately, it could be any number of people who stole the money. On the other hand, when you take something to the post office, you'd like to be assured that the person behind the counter knows what they are doing, including knowing what can and can't be sent through the post.

As to the suggestion of insuring the contents, I know from personal experience that Canada Post does not offer insurance on money.

But keep fighting. I think the idea of asking to see the Canada Post and Purolator logs is a good one, as is contacting your local TV stations and newspapers. I've been living in Australia for the past 8 months and they recently aired a story about the theft and loss of mail by Australia Post employees. Maybe Canada Post needs a kick in the pants on occasion, too.

Good luck!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

dona83 said:


> Really ignorant of you to blame the counter person of stealing your money. Gross ignorance yes you could blame them for that.


Ignorance? No...if that person labels a package as having cash and, then, that cash disappears...well, it's not too hard to see who it *most* likely went to, now, is it?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Thanks everyone, right now, I am just waiting for a call from their investigative branch to see what happens.


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## VVA88IT (Aug 21, 2005)

IronMac said:


> Thanks everyone, right now, I am just waiting for a call from their investigative branch to see what happens.


Hope positive things come from this investigation.


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## _Outcast_ (Oct 17, 2003)

I knew a guy back in 1984 who had worked for Purolator for over ten years at that time. He was always coming home with some item that had been "left unclaimed at the depot." We found out later that he had been stealing this stuff all along. This all came to light when they started investigating him and he ended up quitting because they were closing in on him. Nice. I mean stuff like stereo equipment, sports equipment, you name it, he'd steal it.

And remember a few years back that bunch of CP employees who got caught stealing stuff out of the mail over a long period of time? They had quite the racket going until they were caught and fired. Of course the union got them all their jobs back. Thieving bastards. I love it when the system works.

I guess I say all that to say this; you can't trust anyone anymore. Putting a stamp on a package in the hopes that it will make it to the intended destination unscathed is akin to spinning the big wheel. You may win but the odds are definitely not in your favour.

Jerry


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Investigations branch called back. Their initial report indicated that the package was not tampered with. Huh! I then told them what my mother had said about tape on the Purolator envelope and tape on her original envelope.

I asked them what sort of investigation was this if they were not going to see the envelope(s)?. The end result of all this is that they will now send someone over to check on the two original envelopes. Looks like the wheels are finally turning...


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

don't canada post employees routinely open up packages that may contain money and steal it? i thought this was common knowledge.

good luck on getting your money back but canada post is an inward looking culture and they are not likely to take this too seriously, as you are now discovering.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

It would be so hard to prove though. When the envelope was handed over, someone SAID it contained $300 (no proof really) except that the CanadaPost employeed wrote $300 (but they were just writing out what was CLAIMED to be inside. Now you claim that you receive the envelope back with tape etc. CanadaPost employees deny the tape. You have had the envelopes at your house, you could have tampered with them. There is nothing definitive. From an investigator's point of view, you could have lied at any point here, with the plans of making a false claim to get a free $300...just trying to put things in the perspective of whoever will be deciding upon whether or not you get $300. I honestly can't see it happening. Not to mention the fact that the employees who handled it are highly unlikely to remember (or admit to remembering) handling it, because they handle tons of mail. You would have had to do something right away, when you got the envelope back (and saw it had been tampered with) because now you really can't prove much.

"The end result of all this is that they will now send someone over to check on the two original envelopes. Looks like the wheels are finally turning..."
Its not much good as evidence after its been in your possesion for awhile...there is too much doubt that you could have done the tampering after the fact, and planned this out from the start.

I honestly do not believe this is what happened. This is just how it could be interpreted because of the lack of any true evidence. I really don't see there being enough concrete proof that there ever was money in that envelope, and that it wasn't there when you got it back, to get your money. Given the circumstances, if your money was given to you in this case, it would be astonishingly easy to con the mail system out of money (eg- Claim to send $400 cash to your uncle in BC, he gets the envelope, mangles it a bit, takes it back to the post office and asks where the [non existant] money went).


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Yep, we could have tampered with the envelope(s) and tape which is why I am hoping that they're going to take it back and test it. The inner envelope, if we were the ones tampering with it, would then only have my mother's fingerprints and, perhaps, the counterperson's. Anyone else's would be a clear sign that it was an inside job.

The investigator did mention how would CP know that there was actually $300 in it? I said that the counterperson believed my mother enough that they were willing to write down how much was in it. Besides, would we go through all of this just to get $300? Why not $3000?

As for the police, CP said to wait until their investigation was over. Hrmm...

All of this is hard to prove, true. But, I am going relying on the fact that they believed her enough to put down $300 and to accept the envelope. That goes against their procedures which either shows gross negligence or deliberate intent to steal. The investigator said that Purolator does scan packages to see if there is cash inside but I don't know if this should be interpreted as a good sign or not.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Cp employees are honest and trustworthy 99.99% of the time. In my experience it's always at xmas or summer, when they have temps working, when most of the thefts occur.
My grandmother in Laval used to send us cash, usually a $20 bill, as birthday and xmas gifts. We would always thank her for the nice card and she would always ask about the money, which we never received. She finally wised up and stopped sending us money. Just a card. hehe.
Smart lady.
$300 is a lot of money. I think they will take their time in resolving this matter. 
I would encourage her to talk to the local newspaper or open line shows. Bad publicity makes things work faster. Your grandmother would probably have a lot of embarrassing questions to answer but so what?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

ErnstNL said:


> Cp employees are honest and trustworthy 99.99% of the time. In my experience it's always at xmas or summer, when they have temps working, when most of the thefts occur.
> My grandmother in Laval used to send us cash, usually a $20 bill, as birthday and xmas gifts. We would always thank her for the nice card and she would always ask about the money, which we never received. She finally wised up and stopped sending us money. Just a card. hehe.
> Smart lady.
> $300 is a lot of money. I think they will take their time in resolving this matter.
> I would encourage her to talk to the local newspaper or open line shows. Bad publicity makes things work faster. Your grandmother would probably have a lot of embarrassing questions to answer but so what?


One of my sisters has a friend who works at the Montreal Gazette and they have a consumer advocate there. At the very least, this could be a wake-up call to everyone else as to what not to do!

CP is moving pretty fast on this one...they're sending an inspector tomorrow to interview my mother and the branch employees. My sister in Ottawa went home last night to take photos of all the materials in case CP "disappears" with it.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## arminia (Jan 27, 2005)

"Of course the union got them all their jobs back" Do you know this for sure or are you being an idiot. There is not much the union can do if you are fired for theft.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Sorry, Arminia, deliberate theft may not be enough to fire someone these days. 
Employees are given a second or third! chance to wise up. 
Extenuating circumstances, health problems, gambling/drug addiction ....all may be blamed for their lapse in judgement.
Suspension and giving the employee a chance to provide recompense is usually sufficient to get their job back.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

HowEver said:


> Moving fast? No, nothing fast about it.
> 
> Each day the prospect of evidence (internal videotape perhaps?) disappearing increases greatly. If you want to see Canada Post really move quickly, make the damn phone call to the police station.


Inspector called this morning. She said that the cops, being an ex-policewoman herself, won't do anything since it's only US$300.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

After a 15 minute wait...talked to the police at their main number. Their suggestion was to go to the local police branch to file a report for insurance purposes. If there is no insurance then it is likely not worthwhile. It didn't even sound like there would be an investigation.

Wow! Whoop-de-do! Glad to know that any crime below US$300 is only worth a police report.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## nino (May 29, 2005)

was it an actual post office or a private outlet where the package was sent?


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## fuzzius_navus (Aug 4, 2005)

IronMac said:


> After a 15 minute wait...talked to the police at their main number. Their suggestion was to go to the local police branch to file a report for insurance purposes. If there is no insurance then it is likely not worthwhile. It didn't even sound like there would be an investigation.
> 
> Wow! Whoop-de-do! Glad to know that any crime below US$300 is only worth a police report.


Even a crime like a stolen 17" Powerbook is only worth a police report. Believe me, I know.

The report though helps to build larger cases. If everyone that sent cash/gifts from that specific outlet reported the nickel/dime items that went missing after sending from there, a larger investigation would ensue. Police rely on patterns. One offs are too random and harder to trace.

My advice to anyone, no matter how trivial (well, I guess real judgement is involved here) - if you're scammed or ripped off, even for $50, report it. It goes on file. If there are enough complaints, then perhaps there really is something to it.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

HowEver said:


> It's time to get out a couple of placards, make yourself some signs, string them over yourself, and go hang out outside the post office for a while. That should get some attention.
> 
> By the way, the Canada Post "inspector"'s job is to make sure you don't sue. Think about it. Was there anything she did that would make you take *any* more action against them?
> 
> ...


My mother got the impression that the inspector definitely believes that the package was tampered and the money stolen. But, I wasn't there so it may have been all an act.

The siblings and I are planning on keeping up the pressure and going to small claims court along with calling the Montreal Gazette is part of the campaign. We're definitely going to make them work for the $300!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

nino said:


> was it an actual post office or a private outlet where the package was sent?


It was at one of those franchises in a Uniprix pharmacy.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

*Xmas Comes a Bit Early*

Well, after talking to close to half a dozen people at Canada Post and making good on my threat of making them work for the US$300, Canada Post called up today and said that they will refund my Mother her money.

They are refunding the money because they themselves should have sent back her money in the form of a money order or cheque back in August. Instead, they had sent back her cash which violated their own rule of not sending cash through the system. Got to love the irony of that.

Anyways, they will now send her a cheque for the amount and she should get it in 5-7 business days. :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

good for you and mom


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> good for you and mom


Thanks Macspectrum...all's well that ends well.  It also means pretty good home cooking when she comes to visit Toronto. :clap:


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

IronMac said:


> ...Anyways, they will now send her a cheque for the amount...


You should tell them you want it delivered by Fedex.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

The Doug said:


> You should tell them you want it delivered by Fedex.


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

There are so many better ways of sending money. For the cost of the courier, even the rip-off Western Union doesn't sound too bad.

I would chalk this up as a lesson learned and just be pleasantly surprised if anything else positive came of this situation...


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## med8or (Jan 18, 2002)

Sorry, I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread, so if this has been said already, my apologies.

You might want to get the Ombuds Office involved.
http://www.ombudsman.postescanadapost.ca/index.html

J


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## med8or (Jan 18, 2002)

Sorry....just read that this got resolved. Sorry and way to go!

As a dispute resolution practitioner, I'm involved in a wide variety of processes for dealing with disputes. Most organizations have some form of Dispute Resolution Mechanism in place, especially federal departments. They are a good option.

J


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

med8or said:


> Sorry, I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread, so if this has been said already, my apologies.
> 
> You might want to get the Ombuds Office involved.
> http://www.ombudsman.postescanadapost.ca/index.html
> ...


Thanks med8or (hehehe), I am going to report this whole situation to the Ombudsman Office in the next few days because I feel that the whole investigation and resolution process should be a lot more transparent and not so convoluted. I just talked to her and she received her money last week.


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