# Question on Black and White Pictures...



## Rps

Hello All:

I am just getting into photography, and it may sound strange, but I like black and white photos. What I would like to ask you is, and it may be the G_d given thing, but when you look at something is there a different "view" if you are shooting in black and white vs colour. Shadows play a part. Something we have missed today with all our colour everything is the subtle nature of shadows. The old time movie guys were masters at this, take a re-look at The 3rd Man....great use there.

Any suggestions on how I could learn to "see" in black and white.


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## bsenka

Rps said:


> Hello All:
> 
> I am just getting into photography, and it may sound strange, but I like black and white photos. What I would like to ask you is, and it may be the G_d given thing, but when you look at something is there a different "view" if you are shooting in black and white vs colour. Shadows play a part. Something we have missed today with all our colour everything is the subtle nature of shadows. The old time movie guys were masters at this, take a re-look at The 3rd Man....great use there.
> 
> Any suggestions on how I could learn to "see" in black and white.


It's a lost art for sure. Shadows and contrast are so easily achieved in Photoshop, that many people are taking the attitude that it's hardly worth the time spent trying to get it just right in the field.


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## The Doug

Disagreed. I don't think it's a lost art at all - it's thriving and then some. 

What difference is there really, between spending hours playing with chemicals & negatives then carefully burning & dodging & developing your prints in a darkroom, and processing / perfecting images digitally? The end result is still a *picture* whether it's in colour or black & white.

Cameras & photographic tools (whether camera equipment / accessories) and software are more widely available than ever. Sure the medium itself is transforming, leaving its film / darkroom days behind and going all electronic / digital, but there's no less talent out there than before. It's so much more within peoples' reach now. There's so much incredible talent out there, and incredible work being done, and I don't care whether it's achieved through film & darkroom work, or done with a digital camera and software.


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## bsenka

The Doug said:


> What difference is there really, between spending hours playing with chemicals & negatives then carefully burning & dodging & developing your prints in a darkroom, and processing / perfecting images digitally?


You should see the crap that publishers buy these days. Stuff that never would have been considered is sent in all the time because they know we can just fix it for them. Major changes that you could never do the traditional way are quick and easy now. If photographers took anywhere near the time they used to, we would not be so busy. Lazy photographers pay my mortgage.


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## The Doug

Sure, but that doesn't mean that b&w is a "lost art". You're speaking from a cynical commercial perspective - where mediocrity and / or laziness isn't necessarily limited to imagery. But in my view that's not what Rps is asking about - he's interested in b&w at a personal level, it resonates within, and he is aware of how great b&w can be.

Rps, as I said in my PM - the best thing to do would be to practise and practise some more. Tinker, experiment, and see what you can do. Experiment with light, dark, highlights, shadows. Play with subject matter, texture, and tonality. Always keep your eyes open for things you'd like to photograph, things that interest you and have photogenic potential in your opinion.

The fact that you're interested in b&w photography is a great first step towards producing some of your own. It isn't something everyone is gifted with, it isn't something everyone is even interested in to begin with - but it's there for you to explore as you please.


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## Rps

Yes, I was beginning to think that way. A number of years ago my son sent me a picture of my grandson done in black and white. I've taken some pictures in colour of him, but I really like the black and white. In its own way it colours his personality in a way that the colour ports do not do...it is my favourite picture of him, and I really don't know why but it is..


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## The Doug

Black & white portrait photography can be compelling - it's easy to understand why you prefer the b&w photo of your grandson. Check this gallery out, and this one as well. Terrific b&w portraits.


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## Rps

Thanks Doug! These are great. The more examples the greater the learner, so I appreciate the lesson. Once I get the hang of it I'll post some of my photos for critique and suggestion. Thanks again - Rp


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## Macfury

One of the problems with digital conversions is that some people shoot in colour, then just switch to B&W mode in Photoshop without considering the tonal values and other factors. You can really flatten the B&W photo permanently if you don't convert properly.

When they filmed a B&W episode of the old TV series _Moonlighting_, they were forced to bring in older cinemtographers who had worked on B&W films, because everything was coming out flat. They had no idea how to light, or to choose colours that would translate to proper B&W tones.

In the old _CAR 54_ sit-com, the squad car was actually pink to avoid confusion with real squad cars, but the vehicle ended up looking right in black and white. When they tried to colourize some of the _Three Stooges_ shorts, they found some of the original props from the Columbia vaults. A bright yellow stove had initiallly been chosen to create a certain grey tone, but the people responsible for the conversion faithfully reproduced it in harsh yellow, to garish effect.


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## bsenka

The Doug said:


> Sure, but that doesn't mean that b&w is a "lost art".


The reason I called it a lost art is because so few people are actually shooting specifically FOR black and white anymore. Most shoot in colour first, then convert/correct after the fact.


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## The Doug

I shoot in colour, then convert to b&w so as to keep my options open. Careful processing & adjustment after conversion can result in good b&w images. 

For someone just getting acquainted with b&w imagery, making a good b&w image following conversion from colour is part of the learning curve and also part of the fun.


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## bsenka

Right!! That's exactly what I meant!


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## scootsandludes

Hey, remember back in the old film days, when you shot black and white, you would use a filter to get a desired grey tonal effects? Kinda like one of the posters said about certain film props were painted a weird colour to get the desired greys.

It's a shame how B+W is a lost form. I mean you hear about photographers shooting in colour and then just doing a convert to grey scale instead of doing thing properly in the channel mixer in photoshop. I've noticed it's only something that photographers who actually shot film are the only ones doing this now, most designers and new photographers think you just have to do a convert and it's done, and have no idea what actual grey tones and contrast means.

Great tones The Doug.


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## SoyMac

The Doug said:


> ... Check this gallery out, and this one as well. Terrific b&w portraits.


Thanks, The Doug!
I love seeing the stuff you post here. Very inspiring and motivating for me (to be a better photographer!)

If you don't already, you could teach a digital B&W photography/post-processing course. I'd sign up in a minute.

Please keep it coming!
:clap:


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## The Doug

SoyMac said:


> The Doug said:
> 
> 
> 
> Check this gallery out, and this one as well. Terrific b&w portraits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, The Doug!
> I love seeing the stuff you post here. Very inspiring and motivating for me (to be a better photographer!)
> 
> If you don't already, you could teach a digital B&W photography/post-processing course. I'd sign up in a minute.
> 
> Please keep it coming!
> :clap:
Click to expand...

You're making me blush, I'm only an hobbyist. There's many an ehMac member with much better photographic skills, and more advanced post-processing skills than me.

The library pic is mine, but those two galleries aren't mine, eh? They belong to PBase members - I visit that site frequently to appreciate peoples' image posts. But there's so many good photo galleries out there.

Anyway - on the topic of b&w - it's long been a favourite genre of mine, for so many reasons. 

Why do *you* like b&w? Discuss!


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## Amiga2000HD

It's been a while since I've done black and white photography. I used to shoot some Agfa Scala black and white slide film but the number of labs that process it has declined. Toronto Image Works used to turn it around next day until they stopped processing it and Scala now has to be sent to one of a couple of labs in the US that'll do it.

One of the interesting things I noticed while I was shooting black and white was that it seems in the past, things were designed and painted to photograph well in black and white vs. today where colour photography's expected. I made this discovery after I photographed some old streetcars from the 1920s and 1940s at a railway museum and some currently operating ones in Toronto. The colours on the new ones came out as some blah midtone greys while the old ones photographed into rich, sharply contrasting greys and looked very good.

I also found the same thing happened when I took pictures of old and new signs as well. I strongly suspect that people designing things back in the day were paying attention to how they'd photograph in B & W since colour wasn't available as well as how they'd look in colour to people seeing them firsthand in person.


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## Guest

A lot of the "art" of taking B&W pics back in the day was using appropriate filters. There were (are!) a lot to choose from that will give you drastically different results.

There's still something to be said for B&W shots. The tools provided in Lightroom are amazing. The grayscale mixer really lets you do some amazing stuff with the images to bring things out and get rid of that "flat" sort of look. With digital we are really spoiled in that regard, it's less of a voodoo art nowadays -- I get much better results doing grayscale conversions after the fact now with the mixer in LR than I ever could using film and filters!


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## AquaAngel

that's kewl. i am also a graphic designer and i started it all on black and white, then fooled with color. i still like playing around with B/W to learn the shadow and background.


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## Rps

Hi: Here is a first effort taken in a quarry near where I live... if you look at the centre of the picture you can clearly see the imprints of some fossils. They were too heavy to cut out.


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## screature

Don't know how I missed this discussion before now. 

Anyway, I do have to agree with bsenka to a certain degree that B&W is a suffering art form (not dead though). It stays alive because of those of use who have actually used film, processed it and developed our own shots. There was an incredible "magic" involved in watching images materialize before your eyes in the darkroom. Personally, I found that part of the process just as inspirational as the shooting part.

At any rate I digress. When you shot B&W film knowing that their never was going to be any colour involved, it forced you to think differently about not only how you shot but what you shot. For instance, if the primary subject matter involves intense colours that actually create the interest in a given shot, when I was shooting B&W film I would pass on clicking the shutter release because I knew it wouldn't translate and I would just be wasting film. I found I had a different "mind set" when I was shooting depending on whether there was colour or B&W film in my camera.

Now things are different. I just shoot whatever strikes my fancy because I know I can work it out in post processing to pull whatever I want out of a good image. Now in certain ways this is fantastic because it gives the modern photographer such great flexibility and creative freedom. 

But there is a downside for those who are new to photography, it can provide for a lack of discipline and structure, lessons that only creating things with limitations provide. So if I were developing a curriculum for a photography program I would still make it mandatory to go through a B&W film course just to experience, the "magic" of the darkroom and to learn the lessons that are gained from working within limitations.

One thing I would say to anyone who is trying to make B&W images from their digital shots, is to look at the "old" masters like Ansel Adams, Alfred Stieglitz, Henri Cartier Bresson, Walker Evans, Yousuf Karsh, William Klein, Paul Strand etc. Not for their subject matter but for their masterful use of tonality. When done well a B&W can be exquisite and sumptuous. I find all too many digital shots that have been converted from colour to B&W lack the depth of tonality (dynamic range) that you find in classic B&W film photography. Consequently they are often flat and lifeless. Or on the other hand people without film experience make their conversion too contrasty trying to introduce some "punch" but in the process loose subtlety and detail.

It is in the regard that I understand what bsenka is saying, for those who have *no* B&W film experience I do fear that the art form will suffer going forward unless schools make it mandatory to take at least one course in B&W film photography (camera's would obviously have to be leant out to students as you wouldn't want to have to buy them just for one course, unless they wanted to).


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## Rps

This is actually my second effort. In post #19 it did not up load, I think it was too large, so this is a test to see if I can finally get a picture uploaded.


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## screature

Wow Rps, beautiful subject matter. 

I know you didn't ask for it so this critique is unsolicited, but first a few questions. What method did you use to convert to B&W as there still appears to be some colour in the photo? Particularly noticeable (at least on my monitor at work), there is some green in what I think is a reflection in a window (the left hand side of the image as we look at it). There also appears to be some red (possibly yellow and orange) in the highlights on the woman's face).

Aside from the highlights on the woman's face the image is very flat with a lack of overall contrast. It needs to be "punchier" with the blacks. In general (although for specific reasons there can be exceptions) every B&W photo should have some where in it true black and true white, this is what gives an image it's dynamic range. When you look at this photo closely, there is no black in it, only dark greys so it needs to be further adjusted to actually obtain some blacks.

I don't know that you will be able to do much with the blown out area in the highlight on the woman's face, it appears that the highlights have been clipped here and detail subsequently lost. My general impression is that the photo was probably overexposed when first captured, the exposure probably needed to be compensated by about -0.5EV or so.

The important thing is that as you further adjust the image to adjust the contrast is not to further blowout the highlights on her face, so some localized burning will be necessary in this area, with an overall increase in contrast and perhaps some some further localized burning in areas to really pull out some blacks. 

You may also want to perform some subtle dodging in a few areas like around her shoulder and some highlight areas in her hair just to provide some nice nuanced detail.

And one final comment on composition. Overall I think it isn't badly composed, but I think there is too much "headroom" and you could crop off some of the wall over her head, personally I would make it about half of what it is now. You could also loose the wall that is showing on the right side (as we view the photo) so that the photo ends where her hair ends and maybe even lose a slight bit of the "flyaway" ends on the right side.

Here is an example of the kind of changes I am suggesting:


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## Rps

screature, thanks for the lesson. i will play with the photo, and yes I see the difference. [ BTW the subject is my daughter ]. Yours is a much better rendering, so I will play with it some more and see what I come up with.

I've been keeping some notes and looking at the photos The Doug has posted. I'm a long way off from those, but with practice and the counsel I received, I'll get there. Thanks Rp


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## Whiskey

Rps said:


> Any suggestions on how I could learn to "see" in black and white.


Yes . . . . time and experience. Shoot and print everything in B&W for a year to start with. No colour. Do some research during that year as to what makes a good B&W print from camera to the final. By research I mean real photography research, not opinions on flickr. Get a book by someone who knows and has been there. Much of the old analogue principles of lighting, exposure and printing still apply to the digital B&W experience. Learn the ropes and don't rush it and you will be a better B&W shooter for it.


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## Rps

Hi Whiskey, I'm Rp and welcome to ehMac! Thanks for your advice. I was really surprised by the many ehMacers who take B&W picture....I thought I was the only one who like the medium. I have been looking at some books, is that what you mean by research? As you can see from my first posted attempt, I have a lot to learning to do, but I have been given some great advice, yours included, and I know I will get better.

It sounds like you are quite skilled ... do you take photos as a hobby or are you a pro?


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## Whiskey

Rps said:


> do you take photos as a hobby or are you a pro?


Hi Rps
I do a little of both.
B&W is my thing and has been for a number of decades now. It's how I started shooting and it's how I will end. Not saying I don't shoot colour, I do. I just prefer B&W.


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## SoyMac

screature said:


> ... In general (although for specific reasons there can be exceptions) every B&W photo should have some where in it true black and true white, this is what gives an image it's dynamic range. ...
> The important thing is that as you further adjust the image to adjust the contrast is not to further blowout the highlights on her face, so some localized burning will be necessary in this area, with an overall increase in contrast and perhaps some some further localized burning in areas to really pull out some blacks. ...
> 
> You may also want to perform some subtle dodging in a few areas like around her shoulder and some highlight areas in her hair just to provide some nice nuanced detail. ...
> 
> ... You could also loose the wall that is showing on the right side (as we view the photo) so that the photo ends where her hair ends and maybe even lose a slight bit of the "flyaway" ends on the right side...


screature, thanks for another excellent lesson! 
I learn much on this forum. 

Rps, the only quibble I would have with screature's suggestions would be not to loose the wall, as the wall might fall down. 
I would however, possibly _lose_ the wall from this shot. 
(Actually, I like your background texture with the wall, so, as usual, it's a matter of taste.)

Great stuff, everybody!


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## screature

SoyMac said:


> ...Rps, the only quibble I would have with screature's suggestions would be not to loose the wall, as the wall might fall down.
> I would however, possibly _lose_ the wall from this shot. ...


But if Rps loosens the wall it will fall down and accomplish the same thing.  Smart alec!!! Just kidding! I guess I was a little trigger happy on the "o" key!! Yes there is no accounting for taste as everyone's is different. 

I generally try to stick to rule of thirds when it comes to composition as it is tried and true.  But then again to every rule there is an exception...


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## wongkak

That's true. For b/w I prefer using traditional film camera. It just adds some character to the pictures.


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## Wirehead

Just joined the community and excited to find so many fellow photographers here!! Just to throw my 2 cents in, I personally find that "colour" has a tendency to confuse the image, or rather, complicate it with a lot of eye-candy. B&W is pure shadow and hilights. Subtle details are captured and allow themselves to be seen in a fresh, uncluttered way. I love B&W and did a lot of darkroom work using Kodak Technical Pan 2415 film, beautiful stuff. Anyway, i have been using both Apple Aperture and Adobe Lightroom to process my colour shots, but did not really like them for B&W. I am now using NIK Silver Efex Pro for both programs and it is a wonderful software program for doing B&W work. Anyway, just thought I would throw that bit into the mix. Looking forward to sharing in the future. Wirehead


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## Rps

Just asking a dumb question here, but I've noticed hardly any film in the Black's Store near where I live. Is there much film still being used. Also, I was thinking of take a course, does anyone teach film use today?


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## Wirehead

*Tulip*



Rps said:


> Just asking a dumb question here, but I've noticed hardly any film in the Black's Store near where I live. Is there much film still being used. Also, I was thinking of take a course, does anyone teach film use today?


I can't speak for Blacks, but when I was in Costco here in Nanaimo, I noticed that they are no longer going to be processing film in their stores in the very near future. Could be a sign of the times!!


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## kps

Black & White film should be processed and the negatives printed in YOUR darkroom, with YOUR very own hands and not at a consumer lab like Blacks or Costco... no offence, just say'n.


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## Wirehead

No offence taken, all I was saying in reply to Rps is that what he is witnessing, the lack of film in the retail sector, became evident to me when I see a big box store, like Costco, not developing 35mm film of any description. I tells me that the digital revolution(?) has taken hold just like cassettes did to 8 track and film will be a distant memory soon. I never took my B&W to anyone for developing. You are right, it's definately a "hands-on" venture. Cheers!!


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## SoyMac

Rps said:


> ... does anyone teach film use today?


Although they also teach digital classes, The School Of Photographic Arts Ottawa has a heavy inclination toward *film* instruction.

Full-time and Part-Time options are available.


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