# Petition to get Adobe to fix CS Suite



## Moscool

In Adobe's latest attempt to force a subscription model on everybody, they are 'neglecting' to update some of the bugs caused by El Cap.

Vigorous debate on the Adobe forums about applications crashing, not saving, etc. I must say I had constant crashes with earlier versions with El Cap making Illustrator CS5.5 un-usable. Now it only seems to crash on exit (after I save my work!)

Anyway, a petition is doing the rounds. anyone interested can sign here.


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## broad

i don't think anything adobe has done at any point in the last ten years would give any reasonable person any sort of inkling they give a crap at all what their customers think.


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## wonderings

broad said:


> i don't think anything adobe has done at any point in the last ten years would give any reasonable person any sort of inkling they give a crap at all what their customers think.


That is what happens when there is no competition. Now I love the Adobe products, I use Indesign, Illustrator, Photoshop and Acrobat DC daily. They work well together and are very powerful pro applications. I hate how they have forced us in a subscription model, renting software. I could be paying my "rent" for a few years and decide to stop, I then have nothing. I could go back to CS6, but I am thinking this will soon not work with future releases of OS X. 

Really hoping Affinity steps up their game.


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## chas_m

They myth that "you have nothing if you stop paying" is exactly that -- a myth.

I suppose that could be the case for an InDesign user, that's true -- but there are a couple dozen programs that can open native Photoshop files, at least one that can open native AI files (Affinity Designer) and probably several more I'm unaware of. If you stop paying, you lose access to the program, but not the files created by it. Even InDesign files can be opened by a third-party program that converts them to QuarkXpress, which is sold standalone (no subscription, even as an option) if you really want to get away from InDesign. The current QX is really quite good, actually.

When I was a full-time graphic designer, my boss would have been on that $50/month for the whole suite deal like white on rice -- it used to take me all of an hour (actually, that's what I was being paid, so probably more like 20 minutes) to make back that cost on the work I was doing (mostly national-run print ads). I prefer "owned" to "rented" software unless the price is a great deal (like the Photographer's Bundle is for people who only need PS), but paying out $900+ per seat every 18 months or so as we used to do was quite hard on the small studio's cash flow -- $50/month is about the same money, but spread out better.

I'm not saying that subscription is great and you're wrong, but for *some* users its a better option, and the really big advantages of CC -- instant access to new features, tech support included, always the latest version and so on -- are drowned out by other arguments that are, at least in part, based on myths.


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## Moscool

Plenty of good points chas_m and I'm sure CC works for lots of different pros, my beef is:

- If you ask people to buy and expensive car, you should provide service for a few years after you change the model, not simply say: "get the new model and by the way the only option is leasing". I actually may want to keep my car for 10 years, not change it every 18 months. Obviously you may want to charge me after the warranty expires, but at least support the old model. For software, a 3-5 year warranty seems sensible. CS suite buyers have purchased very expensive cars; this should be respected

- I love what I have seen so far in Affinity, but this doesn't buy back the hundreds of hours learning CS apps. Although there is commonality, the user is the one who has to retrain

- In the past programmes stopped being compatible when there was a major OS change or a a key change in one of the modules (e.g. audio treatment in Yosemite). You could then understand why developers would want to charge you for the change or, in the case of small developers, stop supporting a programme altogether (e.g. Wire Tap). What Adobe seems to be doing is a lot more pernicious: making the programme uncomfortable enough to strong-arm you into their new business model. This creates a lot of ill-will

- Finally, the CC suite makes assumptions about where and how you want to use the cloud and even buying a stand-alone programme such as Lightroom 6 installs a huge amount of crap which you can only get rid of with great difficulty.

All in all, bad Karma and I can't wait for the Affinity suite to be complete


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## wonderings

chas_m said:


> They myth that "you have nothing if you stop paying" is exactly that -- a myth.
> 
> I suppose that could be the case for an InDesign user, that's true -- but there are a couple dozen programs that can open native Photoshop files, at least one that can open native AI files (Affinity Designer) and probably several more I'm unaware of. If you stop paying, you lose access to the program, but not the files created by it. Even InDesign files can be opened by a third-party program that converts them to QuarkXpress, which is sold standalone (no subscription, even as an option) if you really want to get away from InDesign. The current QX is really quite good, actually.
> 
> When I was a full-time graphic designer, my boss would have been on that $50/month for the whole suite deal like white on rice -- it used to take me all of an hour (actually, that's what I was being paid, so probably more like 20 minutes) to make back that cost on the work I was doing (mostly national-run print ads). I prefer "owned" to "rented" software unless the price is a great deal (like the Photographer's Bundle is for people who only need PS), but paying out $900+ per seat every 18 months or so as we used to do was quite hard on the small studio's cash flow -- $50/month is about the same money, but spread out better.
> 
> I'm not saying that subscription is great and you're wrong, but for *some* users its a better option, and the really big advantages of CC -- instant access to new features, tech support included, always the latest version and so on -- are drowned out by other arguments that are, at least in part, based on myths.


Instant access to possibly buggy software. I don't argue that the subscription is bad, but it is no longer a choice. And really there is viable alternative to Illustrator or Indesign. I have Affinity Designer, only just recently did they get support for pantones and spot colours, it still feels very limited compared to Illustrator, though I could probably make it work as Indesign is my main app. 

In regards to Indesign, there is nothing that comes close, Quark maybe, but it is seriously behind Indesign. If you want a simple live spell check you need to buy a plugin for $50.

The issue is losing the programs you have paid for. Why not let me keep the last version that I paid 12 months of subscription fee for? It is not the newest app anymore, so why should I lose it? Why can't I keep CC2014 when CC2015 is the latest and I have done a full year of subscription? Sounds a bit greedy to me, knowing they have me with no real alternative.

This is how I think subscriptions should work:
https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What-is-perpetual-fallback-license-


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## chas_m

Just to be clear, I think Adobe is wrong not to offer a "boxed" version of the software as an option (though honestly they'd price it through the roof if they did). I think Microsoft has taken the correct approach here wrt to how they're handling Office. You can buy it online for $200 outright (the basic version) or subscribe for $7US a month, your choice.


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## wonderings

chas_m said:


> Just to be clear, I think Adobe is wrong not to offer a "boxed" version of the software as an option (though honestly they'd price it through the roof if they did). I think Microsoft has taken the correct approach here wrt to how they're handling Office. You can buy it online for $200 outright (the basic version) or subscribe for $7US a month, your choice.


I like what Microsoft is doing as well. I was on a friends subscription for a while, he had 5 licenses. He canceled his subscription, I use office now and then at work, but it is hardly an essential app that is worth a monthly fee. A one time purchase fee is much easier for me to stomach, I bought it and that is it. There are enough monthly bills, I don't want to start adding all the software I use on top of that. 

I have no issue with Adobes subscription, but do have a problem not having the choice and not keeping the last version of a 12 month subscription service. For a while Adobe had both. I still hope that Adobe will hear the outcry from many of their users, but I am not holding my breath. I really do hope Affinity steps up their game and gives Adobe some real competition, it is sorely needed.


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## macintosh doctor

Moscool said:


> .... I love what I have seen so far in Affinity, but this doesn't buy back the hundreds of hours learning CS apps. Although there is commonality, the user is the one who has to retrain...
> 
> 
> ...All in all, bad Karma and I can't wait for the Affinity suite to be complete...


I have been using both packages from Affinity, now I am not a power house user, but the fact that I don't need to pay a monthly subscription is more than satisfying.. I have been suggesting Affinity to all of my clients - currently they are thrilled by the software, as well there is a 20% discount in the app store off the suggest retail price..

Has anyone else used it ? what are your experiences? I hope they come out with an InDesign version.


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## wonderings

macintosh doctor said:


> I have been using both packages from Affinity, now I am not a power house user, but the fact that I don't need to pay a monthly subscription is more than satisfying.. I have been suggesting Affinity to all of my clients - currently they are thrilled by the software, as well there is a 20% discount in the app store off the suggest retail price..
> 
> Has anyone else used it ? what are your experiences? I hope they come out with an InDesign version.


I have played with a bit, I did purchase it on sale a while back. I use Adobe CC professional, main app is Indesign, then Illustrator and Photoshop used the least. Affinity designer was a bit backwards for a bit, no spot colour support, no pantone support. That has changed now making it usable in a pro environment, for me it was useless without pantone and spot colour support. 

I am so used to the layout in Illustrator I just stick with it. Not a power user in illustrator, so being able to get what I need done quickly rather then hunt around and learn Affinities layout is just not appealing.

I would like to see competition for Indesign, but I just don't know what anyone can bring to the table. Indesign is a fantastic app, my favourite and what I use daily. If anything, I hope pressure is put on indesign as some users switch away from the CC so that they at least bring back the option of purchasing one time or getting a subscription as they used to do. 

I think I read somewhere that Affinity is working on Windows versions of their software, I think that will be a higher priority then trying to tackle the near perfect app that is Indesign.


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## Moscool

wonderings said:


> I think I read somewhere that Affinity is working on Windows versions of their software, I think that will be a higher priority then trying to tackle the near perfect app that is Indesign.


Actually releasing Windows versions of existing Affinity apps is what has slowed the InDesign competitor progress...

Current date for a beta is 'early 2017'. Check their FB page for updates


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## macintosh doctor

wonderings said:


> I have played with a bit, I did purchase it on sale a while back. I use Adobe CC professional, main app is Indesign, then Illustrator and Photoshop used the least. Affinity designer was a bit backwards for a bit, no spot colour support, no pantone support. That has changed now making it usable in a pro environment, for me it was useless without pantone and spot colour support.
> 
> I am so used to the layout in Illustrator I just stick with it. Not a power user in illustrator, so being able to get what I need done quickly rather then hunt around and learn Affinities layout is just not appealing.
> 
> I would like to see competition for Indesign, but I just don't know what anyone can bring to the table. Indesign is a fantastic app, my favourite and what I use daily. If anything, I hope pressure is put on indesign as some users switch away from the CC so that they at least bring back the option of purchasing one time or getting a subscription as they used to do.
> 
> I think I read somewhere that Affinity is working on Windows versions of their software, I think that will be a higher priority then trying to tackle the near perfect app that is Indesign.


i was at a trade show, my adobe rep mentioned cost of CC is going up.


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## Moscool

macintosh doctor said:


> i was at a trade show, my adobe rep mentioned cost of CC is going up.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha tptptptpbeejacon


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