# Before you buy a car...



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

The CAA has put a very cool calculator on their site. It looks at price, fuel consumption, savings and emissions over time and allows you to make comparisons for different vehicles.

Here is the URL: Home - Canadian Automobile Association | Association canadienne des automobilistes

Look for this:


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Yet again, no mention of the amount of CO2 emitted to produce the car. Prius batteries don't just appear out of nowhere.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

No mention because there is no significant impact on battery production and battery efficiencies are increasing rapidly. Early calculations were done assuming that hybrid batteries would need to be replaced often but so far, they have proven to last 'the life of the car'. 

There have been many inaccuracies published about batteries and other hybrid issues that are simply wrong. Although new battery production is becoming even more efficient, Toyota has addressed these issues here in this 2003 brochure: 

http://www.myprius.co.za/pgr_e.pdf


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

AskPablo: Time to get a new car? | Triple Pundit: People, Planet, Profit

Compares energy required to manufacture a Prius vs. a Highlander, a Highlander Hybrid, and a Hummer H2.

A Prius uses a bit more energy to manufacture compared to a Highlander, and a Highlander Hybrid requires almost 50% more energy than a regular Highlander to build. A Hummer H2 uses as much as energy to manufacture as two regular Highlanders, and uses more gasoline per year than a Prius, a Highlander, and a Highlander Hybrid combined.

If you compared a Corolla to a Prius, the Corolla probably requires 2/3rds as much energy as a Prius to manufacture is what I'm saying. You probably break even in the end.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

dona83 said:


> AskPablo: Time to get a new car? | Triple Pundit: People, Planet, Profit
> 
> If you compared a Corolla to a Prius, the Corolla probably requires 2/3rds as much energy as a Prius to manufacture is what I'm saying. You probably break even in the end.


Not probably break even - the Prius uses much less over the lifetime of the car.

Prius Is Dirtier To Build Than Corolla...But Greener Than A Hummer - The Car Connection

There are more studies and articles - will post more tomorrow...I'm out for the night.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

It's only 6:44pm! Oh wait yea. 

Also consider that the Prius is built in Japan so has to be shipped here. The Corolla is built in Canada with 71% North American content.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

dona83 said:


> It's only 6:44pm! Oh wait yea.
> 
> Also consider that the Prius is built in Japan so has to be shipped here. The Corolla is built in Canada with 71% North American content.


The amount of energy used in production of parts, manufacturing and shipping is minimal when factored in with the total energy used over the life of the car - see the MIT study in the article above. Plus the Prius has cleaner burning fuel technologies so there are fewer overall emissions.

If Prius sales increase in NA, Toyota will move production closer to the market like is is doing now in China and has done with most of its vehicles. One in 5 cars on the road in Japan are hybrids (Prius has the largest share of that market by far). NA consumers are still too married to impractical marketing with the promise of speed and power over fuel economy and lower emissions. It makes no sense to me at all.

Buy one and they will come... But hopefully we'll have plugin Prius' soon and/or more alternatives to get us away from 100% gas burners.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Here is a Prius vs Carolla CE (manual trans) over 5 years at today's fuel price (in Ontario) of $1.07 at 20,000 kms/year. The Carolla is a compact car - the Prius is mid-sized so there is a big difference in the size and other features of these cars.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Well sure you can save on the fuel, but if you look at those numbers, it costs you about 10 grand to do it. That doesn't work for me.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Many people assume that they can buy a Carolla or a Civic and their environmental impact is lower than a Prius - this is not true.

With your reasoning, then why would anyone pay more for any car than they would for a Toyota Corolla? A Prius and a Corolla are not similar cars at all. Lots of people pay tens of thousands of dollars for a BMW, Lexus or (gulp) Cadillac badge and get no real value from it. At least a Prius is a very comfortable mid-sized car (Corolla is a lot smaller!), has amazing computer display that shows you how the car is working and plenty of storage space in the hatch-back.


What I would like to see is a Corolla hybrid - then you could make a similar comparison. Honda is still working on the Fit Hybrid which is also interesting as it's expected to retail in the same range as a Corolla and fits a similar compact car profile but Honda's hybrid technology is not as good as Toyota's. More hybrid or 100% electric choices would help.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

How do you jump from this:



jef said:


> At least a Prius is a very comfortable mid-sized car (Corolla is a lot smaller!)...


...to this:



jef said:


> What I would like to see is a Corolla hybrid - then you could make a similar comparison.


It would stilll be a Corolla, and still "...a lot smaller." Which was one of two reasons you were so quick to dismiss out of hand sinc's suggestion of a Corolla. (the other being a display screen that let's you know how your vehicle's doing). Clearly you are only concerned with your carbon footprint. Great - there's a car for you then. But a lot of us don't give a crap about our vehicle's emissions. Most people sensibly still put economy of operation over the environment - fortunately there are a lot vehicles that fit this bill. Speaking economically, I'd recommend a civic sedan. Using the ecochoice calculator - after 15 yrs you'd still come out on top dollar-wise. And they are very fine vehicles.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

chasMac said:


> How do you jump from this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...to this:


Because Sinc was saying that the Prius is more expensive than the Corolla - and it is because it is a bigger car in a different category so its hard to make a fair comparison based on the $10,000 difference in the cost of the vehicle.

It is unfortunate that there are no compact hybrids to make a real comparison - but many more hybrids will go into production soon so things will get better.

If you don't consider emissions (not only carbon footprint) to be important, that is your right. I assume that you also think smoking is healthy and we should continue to dump toxic waste into our drinking water. It is not 'sensible' in any way to put economy of operation over the environment.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

jef said:


> If you don't consider emissions (not only carbon footprint) to be important, that is your right. I assume that you also think smoking is healthy and we should continue to dump toxic waste into our drinking water.


My behaviour (and a billion or more others) would seem to indicate this wouldn't it?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jef said:


> f you don't consider emissions (not only carbon footprint) to be important, that is your right. I assume that you also think smoking is healthy and we should continue to dump toxic waste into our drinking water. It is not 'sensible' in any way to put economy of operation over the environment.


Once you begin going down this road, you would simply have to admit that your if your convenience is served you are perfectly willing to drive in a vehicle that dumps some toxic waste into your drinking water. You are perfectly happy to put your convenience ahead of the environment, provided its done in such a way that it meets with your approval.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

jef said:


> Because Sinc was saying that the Prius is more expensive than the Corolla - and it is because it is a bigger car in a different category so its hard to make a fair comparison based on the $10,000 difference in the cost of the vehicle..


The difference is way more than $10,000 in the cost of the vehicle. My point was it costs you $10,000 to save only $2,800 on fuel over a five year period. That's what just does not add up. The cost is far too steep for consumers to buy into that kind of program.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> The difference is way more than $10,000 in the cost of the vehicle. My point was it costs you $10,000 to save only $2,800 on fuel over a five year period. That's what just does not add up. The cost is far too steep for consumers to buy into that kind of program.


So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jef said:


> So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?


Because they have been convinced through marketing that what they are doing is of great value to the environment, reducing the temperature of the Earth--and because they feel "cool " doing it.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

jef said:


> So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?


There is something amiss with your logic here. Because consumers consciously make un-economical choices doesn't mean they cannot recognize the uneconomical.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

SINC said:


> The difference is way more than $10,000 in the cost of the vehicle. My point was it costs you $10,000 to save only $2,800 on fuel over a five year period. That's what just does not add up. The cost is far too steep for consumers to buy into that kind of program.


Yep the fuel savings over a Corolla would take about 20 years to pay the cost difference assuming you are putting are a bit more than average on the odometer. Just too expensive.

If you put a car out there with similar size and features of the Corolla at the same price as the Corolla boasting an 80+MPG (US) year round average, I will be a very enthusiastic booster.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

jef said:


> So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?


That has nothing to do with the case example you presented. If you have the salary to afford the luxury vehicle, fill your boots. My point is that the ROI takes far too long to make it attractive for an average vehicle buyer to participate in the program.

If they could reduce the savings time by upping the mileage or by reducing the cost of the vehicle, it becomes much more palatable to average car buyers.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

jef said:


> So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?


Yes: different market segments --> different kinds of buyers --> different priorities. This is Marketing 101. 

The luxury car buyer isn't make a purchase on the basis of how economical it is to run the car. They are looking for a status symbol and a luxury driving experience. Any arguments you make on the basis of fuel economy won't matter much to this buyer if you are comparing a luxury car to an econobox. 

And the person looking for an economy car *is* going to care that it will cost them $10,000 more to save $2,000 over 5 years.

If you don't understand that you have to tailor your message to the buyer you are trying to attract, you aren't going to convince anyone of anything.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Because they have been convinced through marketing that what they are doing is of great value to the environment, reducing the temperature of the Earth--and because they feel "cool " doing it.


Convinced through research - there is more anti-hybrid marketing and misinformation available than there are facts because we have an oil driven economy. Most people have very wrong assumptions about the hybrids on the roads today. I get asked all the time how often I need to replace the battery, what will I do with the used batteries, where do I plug it in etc. People tell me a Carolla is better on the environment than a Prius because of the production/manufacturing process all the time. The market is ill-informed.

Environmental costs are not calculated in our purchases because these are deferred cost we are leaving to another generation or come back to us as health issues so they are not seen as related.

I certainly do feel much cooler promoting and contributing to cleaner technology development by participating in that economy than I would spending $80,000 on a BMW X5. 

It would be great if there were Carolla sized hybrids - they will be even more cost effective than a basic Carolla or Civic - there will be soon.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> That has nothing to do with the case example you presented. If you have the salary to afford the luxury vehicle, fill your boots. My point is that the ROI takes far too long to make it attractive for an average vehicle buyer to participate in the program.
> 
> If they could reduce the savings time by upping the mileage or by reducing the cost of the vehicle, it becomes much more palatable to average car buyers.


My example is not based on the ROI - its based on emissions produced from the production to the end of lifetime for a vehicle. He assumed that energy used in producing the batteries and shipping the cars etc would outweigh or equalize the benefits of reduced energy and emissions from driving. That assumption is wrong.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

You can put it any way you wish, but the bottom line is no one but a fool would invest $10,000 to save $2,800 no matter how committed to the environment they were. They would buy a cheaper vehicle with good gas milage and pocket that $10,000 premium. That is the cold hard truth for the vast majority of car buyers at that market level.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jef said:


> The market is ill-informed.


I'm not anti-hybird. It's just that you're doing nothing great by driving one.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Sonal said:


> Yes: different market segments --> different kinds of buyers --> different priorities. This is Marketing 101.
> 
> The luxury car buyer isn't make a purchase on the basis of how economical it is to run the car. They are looking for a status symbol and a luxury driving experience. Any arguments you make on the basis of fuel economy won't matter much to this buyer if you are comparing a luxury car to an econobox.
> 
> ...


I understand the marketing processes that have got us to where we are. I question the priorities we have when making purchases in 2010. 

Buying huge 4X4 8 cylinder vehicles for status when used for commuting and grocery shopping is a direct result of the power of marketing. When practical and environmental issues are considered, it looks to me to be rather silly - and not cool at all.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> You can put it any way you wish, but the bottom line is no one but a fool would invest $10,000 to save $2,800 no matter how committed to the environment they were. They would buy a cheaper vehicle with good gas milage and pocket that $10,000 premium. That is the cold hard truth for the vast majority of car buyers at that market level.


Having a choice between a Prius and a Malibu or any other mid-sized car in that price category would be a more realistic comparison. I was not suggesting that people who can only afford a Carolla should by Prius. Until there is a wider variety of hybrids available, buyers can only buy what they can afford. But there are lots of buyers that can afford a Prius who spend the same or even more money on a car that is a lot harder on the environment and will cost them much more over time as gas prices continue to increase.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

jef said:


> I understand the marketing processes that have got us to where we are. I question the priorities we have when making purchases in 2010.
> 
> Buying huge 4X4 8 cylinder vehicles for status when used for commuting and grocery shopping is a direct result of the power of marketing. When practical and environmental issues are considered, it looks to me to be rather silly - and not cool at all.


Like it or not it is NOT the big V8s that the hybrids are competing against. It is the Civics, the Yaris, The Corolla... To do that successfully, mileage has to go way up and cost has to come way down. If all goes well I will own my little econobox for about 15 years. It gets a year round mileage of 37+MPG. Depending on Miles driven the very most I could have saved in one year by driving a Prius is about $500. Realistically it would be quite a bit less, as at least half my miles are highway and the Prius delivers slightly poorer economy on the highway than does my car. 

For drivers such as myself the math for the Hybrid fails.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> You can put it any way you wish, but the bottom line is no one but a fool would invest $10,000 to save $2,800 no matter how committed to the environment they were.


ooooh Sinc - I do believe you have just called myself, my son, my parents, many of my neighbours and other careful car buyers concerned about the environment and the implications of our current buying habits....a fool!

But its not so bad as it sounds, there are many other benefits of owing the car.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

jef said:


> ooooh Sinc - I do believe you have just called myself, my son, my parents, many of my neighbours and other careful car buyers concerned about the environment and the implications of our current buying habits....a fool!
> 
> But its not so bad as it sounds, there are many other benefits of owing the car.


Nothing personal, jef. 

But I sure would not call spending 10 grand to get back 2,800 bucks an astute investment. That said, if you feel there are benefits to owning such a vehicle that outweigh the extra cost, good on you. It's just not something I would ever do.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Like it or not it is NOT the big V8s that the hybrids are competing against. It is the Civics, the Yaris, The Corolla... To do that successfully, mileage has to go way up and cost has to come way down. If all goes well I will own my little econobox for about 15 years. It gets a year round mileage of 37+MPG. Depending on Miles driven the very most I could have saved in one year by driving a Prius is about $500. Realistically it would be quite a bit less, as at least half my miles are highway and the Prius delivers slightly poorer economy on the highway than does my car.
> 
> For drivers such as myself the math for the Hybrid fails.


I have not argued about the ROI in any of my posts even though there is a clear ROI when the Prius is compared to most other cars over their lifetime. 

The Prius is not in the same class of car as the cars you mention above. I'll look for figures to back this up but in my experience, the majority of first time Prius buyers are well educated, professional people who are looking to reduce emissions and contribute to new, cleaner technologies. Not people who are looking for a cheap car.

Most Prius owners I know ( I know a lot but its not hard data here) did trade in 'luxury' or over-sized vehicles because of concerns about wasting money on gas and emissions.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

jef said:


> I have not argued about the ROI in any of my posts even though there is a clear ROI when the Prius is compared to most other cars over their lifetime.
> 
> The Prius is not in the same class of car as the cars you mention above. I'll look for figures to back this up but in my experience, the majority of first time Prius buyers are well educated, professional people who are looking to reduce emissions and contribute to new, cleaner technologies. Not people who are looking for a cheap car.
> 
> Most Prius owners I know ( I know a lot but its not hard data here) did trade in 'luxury' or over-sized vehicles because of concerns about wasting money on gas and emissions.


The examples I quoted were not cheap cars but rather cars that deliver the very most for the dollar. Most for the dollar includes; purchase price, longevity, maintenance costs as well as fuel efficiency.

Certainly the Prius offers the same size engine as a Yaris and only a marginally larger trunk. The Yaris seats may not look that impressive but are extremely comfortable over a long period of time. 

What the Prius offers that the Yaris does not is status and is highly recommended for those that like to have the garage protruding from the front of their house like a phallic symbol. For those looking for the best value it is not the Prius or any other Hybrid.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

I considered getting a Prius recently but was scarred off by the fact that I keep my cars for 8 to 10 years and the battery life on them is rated to be 6 or 7 years. When I enquired about battery replacement costs the Toyota rep speculated that replacement would be about $7000 to $9000. It didn't make sense to me.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Wow! That nearly doubles the premium to own one of those things. (My current ride, a 2001 Suzuki Grand Vitara Limited 4 x 4) hasn't even had a tune-up or a battery in the 9 1/2 years we have owned it. Repair costs have been zero as well. Approaching 90,000 km and other than oil and filter and a set of tires, ZERO dollars spent.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

jimbotelecom said:


> I considered getting a Prius recently but was scarred off by the fact that I keep my cars for 8 to 10 years and the battery life on them is rated to be 6 or 7 years. When I enquired about battery replacement costs the Toyota rep speculated that replacement would be about $7000 to $9000. It didn't make sense to me.


The information you received is incorrect. Battery life is rated for the life of the car. Mine is a 2001 and the original battery is still in it. It was recently tested at 98% of new capacity. If you ever did need a replacement, the cost today is about $3,000 and of course much cheaper if you get one from an accident vehicle.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> Wow! That nearly doubles the premium to own one of those things. (My current ride, a 2001 Suzuki Grand Vitara Limited 4 x 4) hasn't even had a tune-up or a battery in the 9 1/2 years we have owned it. Repair costs have been zero as well. Approaching 90,000 km and other than oil and filter and a set of tires, ZERO dollars spent.


The Prius is consistently ranked as the lowest cost of ownership in its category and is in the top ranks of compact cars - just google 'lowest cost of ownership car' and start reading. I have put over 350,000kms total on 2 2001 Prius' (one I owned in Japan and the other in Canada) with no repair costs other than what Sinc lists above. Both cars are still on the road with original batteries. The other 2 in the family are much newer and have also never needed a repair.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Certainly the Prius offers the same size engine as a Yaris and only a marginally larger trunk. The Yaris seats may not look that impressive but are extremely comfortable over a long period of time.
> 
> What the Prius offers that the Yaris does not is status and is highly recommended for those that like to have the garage protruding from the front of their house like a phallic symbol. For those looking for the best value it is not the Prius or any other Hybrid.


The Prius offers a hybrid synergy system that is 2 motors, one gas and one electric so comparing the engine to a Yaris is not very productive. The 2 motors split the wear and tear and is one reason why they are so reliable and need so little maintenance compared to a car with only one engine.

If you are interested in how the drive train works, have a look here:

Hybrid Synergy Drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The rest of your comments I don't understand - I lost interest in what cars look like a long time ago. The shape of the Prius is the way it is because it is aerodynamic; its designed to be efficient. If you see a phallic symbol in a car, I think you need help...


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

jef said:


> The information you received is incorrect. battery life is rated for the life of the car. Mine is a 2001 and the original battery is still in it. It was recently tested at 98% of new capacity. If you ever did need a replacement, the cost today is about $3,000 and of course much cheaper if you get one from an accident vehicle.


Just googled this and received U.S. info 8 years, 150,000 miles. $3200 USD to replace. Regardless I didn't pursue.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Additionally Canadian Toyota site says 36 months 160,000km.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

jimbotelecom said:


> Just googled this and received U.S. info 8 years, 150,000 miles. $3200 USD to replace. Regardless I didn't pursue.


Do you have a source? The real world information indicates that actual life of batteries in use now is holding to Toyota's estimate 'for the life of the car'. So far, there have not been many (or any I can find) documented battery failures (other than damage caused by floods, accidents or leaving the battery for many weeks without a charge) and many Prius' are documented to have clocked over 450,000 kms on the original battery. 

If there were suddenly a rash of battery failures and expensive replacements, it would certainly make the front page news since so many erroneous predictions have been made by the automotive press over the years. I follow the hybrid news and have not seen any evidence of natural failures and the Prius has been on the road since 1997 in Japan.

Lots of people have made the decision not to buy based on erroneous information.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

If you want to do good for the environment, take transit which emits half the CO2, or better, bike or walk. Don't get me wrong, the Prius is a great car, but it's not for everyone and it's not an environmental saviour.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

dona83 said:


> If you want to do good for the environment, take transit which emits half the CO2, or better, bike or walk. Don't get me wrong, the Prius is a great car, but it's not for everyone and it's not an environmental saviour.


I agree - but for many people, a car is a necessary option. I have not stated its an environmental savior - it is a step in the right direction. 

As a hybrid owner since 2001, I know there is so much misinformation as clearly demonstrated in this thread (and others) that people are making decisions - important ones - based on incorrect information, and marketing hype (bigger, faster, status) that should be no longer relevant in 2010 - because we know more now than we did in 1980 (gas prices have increased a bit since then too...). All I hope to do is set the record straight and hope that the decisions people make when purchasing a vehicle are based on facts rather than hybrid/electric vehicle FUD.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

jef said:


> The Prius offers a hybrid synergy system that is 2 motors, one gas and one electric so comparing the engine to a Yaris is not very productive. The 2 motors split the wear and tear and is one reason why they are so reliable and need so little maintenance compared to a car with only one engine.
> 
> If you are interested in how the drive train works, have a look here:
> 
> ...


Perfect comparison. At highway speeds the engine is doing the majority of the lifting. The motor compensates for the additional weight. Hence the slightly lower highway ratings for the Prius versus the Yaris.

What I would like to know is how, and how well the heater works.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Perfect comparison. At highway speeds the engine is doing the majority of the lifting. The motor compensates for the additional weight. Hence the slightly lower highway ratings for the Prius versus the Yaris.
> 
> What I would like to know is how, and how well the heater works.


Show me where the Yaris gets better highway mpg. It is close but the Prius gets ratings are between 46 and 60 mpg (US) depending where you read and the stats for the Yaris are good but around 40 to 45 mpg (US). (It's easier to find mpg ratings than kms/L ratings) I average around 4.8 litres/100kms in my 2001 - the 2005 and 2006 we have in the family get about 4.6 on average in real world, mixed city and highway driving. (we live in Burlington and are in and out of Toronto and Hamilton.)

As far as I know, the Yaris still idles when stopped (idling is very inefficient - most engines are designed to be most efficient at high RPMs vs low RPMs) and has no electric motor to take over when gas guzzling torque is needed to get up to speed. So comparing cars based on highway mpg only doesn't really work well anyway.

The heater/air conditioning works great -it's electric heat - what would make you think it doesn't? (The stereo sounds great too...)

The air conditioner compressor in older models does impact fuel efficiency and mpg just like it does in any other car. No car gets it for free. Oops I am wrong - 

The 2010 Prius has (optional) solar panels on the roof that operate the air conditioning in the car with no additional emissions and no hit on your mpg. You can even click your key FOB (or pre-program) from your house or office before you drive and your car will be appropriately 'temperatured' when you get in - no fossil fuels burned. No more burned butt from hot car seats in summer and a nice warm (windows defrosted) vehicle in winter - and no increase in fuel emissions - how 'cool' is that?


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

jimbotelecom said:


> Just googled this and received U.S. info 8 years, 150,000 miles. $3200 USD to replace. Regardless I didn't pursue.


I have a buddy who owns an independent automotive parts supplier, and he agrees the cost of replacing the Prius battery is about C$4000 including labour, and confirms that replacement is required more often than jef would lead you to believe.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

jimbotelecom said:


> Additionally Canadian Toyota site says 36 months 160,000km.


This is warranty information - not real world evidence of how long a battery will last. Do you decide not to buy a BMW because the transmission is only warrantied for 3 years and/or 160,000kms? Because you think it will blow up at that time or mileage??

Real evidence please!!!


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> I have a buddy who owns an independent automotive parts supplier, and he agrees the cost of replacing the Prius battery is about C$4000 including labour, and confirms that replacement is required more often than jef would lead you to believe.


I have a friend who talks total crap and says the same thing - can your friend provide real (or any) evidence? If you go to a Toyota dealer and ask for a new battery, the cost is now about $3,800 in Canada and about $2,400 in the US (including labour) and about $1,000 on eBay (no labour). If you want to pay more you probably can.

The main point is how many batteries fail? Is Prius battery failure a real concern? Do I need to worry about Mac viruses? So far, I have not seen any hard statistics on failures or viruses. If there was one or more of either event it would certainly be front page news. Failures and viruses have to happen in order to have statistics. Please help me find them. My friend, who talks total crap, says there are lots of statistics but his dog ate them and then he got an OS X virus.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

jef said:


> I understand the marketing processes that have got us to where we are. I question the priorities we have when making purchases in 2010.


Well then you don't understand marketing.

A good marketing campaign starts by understanding what the buyer's priorities are and works with those priorities. It doesn't dismiss those priorities as being silly or irrelevant... that's how you alienate buyers.



jef said:


> The Prius is not in the same class of car as the cars you mention above. I'll look for figures to back this up but in my experience, the majority of first time Prius buyers are well educated, professional people who are looking to reduce emissions and contribute to new, cleaner technologies. Not people who are looking for a cheap car.


Ah, you see? I am a well-educated, professional person looking for a cheap car.... well I was, and then I bought a cheap car, and three years later I continue to be very happy with my cheap car.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Methinks, Jef, you are working with some intellectual constructs which don't quite match up to the reality on the ground.

Generalizations about well educated professionals tend to go off the rails very quickly; idiocy, much ike wisdom, does not confine itself to certain classes or educational degrees. Let's please get beyond empty stereotypes and claims that others who disagree with your contentions are talking "total crap."


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Max said:


> Methinks, Jef, you are working with some intellectual constructs which don't quite match up to the reality on the ground.
> 
> Generalizations about well educated professionals tend to go off the rails very quickly; idiocy, much ike wisdom, does not confine itself to certain classes or educational degrees. Let's please get beyond empty stereotypes and claims that others who disagree with your contentions are talking "total crap."


Sorry Max but my generalization came from somewhere - here is an article summarizing the data that backs it up (its not me in the photo in the article though...):

Profile of Hybrid Drivers | Hybrid Cars

I am quite aware that people don't make purchases based on reality. That is the point...


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Sonal said:


> Well then you don't understand marketing.
> 
> A good marketing campaign starts by understanding what the buyer's priorities are and works with those priorities. It doesn't dismiss those priorities as being silly or irrelevant... that's how you alienate buyers.
> 
> Ah, you see? I am a well-educated, professional person looking for a cheap car.... well I was, and then I bought a cheap car, and three years later I continue to be very happy with my cheap car.


I agree with what you say marketing should be - but if marketing did what it should in the automotive industry, then how did Detroit get it so wrong that GM and Chrysler had to be bailed out? They kept on giving us bigger, faster, status messages and cars when the Europeans, Japanese and Koreans gave us smaller, efficient, practical messages and cars (with some obvious exceptions in the luxury and a few other markets). 

I have worked with most of the major global automotive tier one and other top suppliers in Japan and Asia. Although we tried hard to present the US manufacturers with the priorities of their markets, their insistence that they knew their markets better than the research showed make them look very silly and their markets remain irrelevant in those countries to this day (and well as their home markets for GM and Chrysler - enough to force a taxpayer bail out). 

There are many case studies including GM, Chrysler and Ford launching expensive advertising campaigns for their cars in Japan (bigger, faster, status) but refusing to adapt their cars to the market. The big three thought they could sell cars with the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car. (Can you imagine how many NA buyers would have bought Japanese if the cars had the steering wheel on the wrong side?) It was truly silly of them to even try but they did - more than once. Despite tons of money and years of trying, US brands in Japan remain irrelevant and the word 'silly' is appropriate to describe their reputation in the market there. 

I'm glad you like your cheap car. I hope soon you can drive a cheap car that also burns less gas and has lower emissions. It is unfortunate that the technology exists to make this happen but you can't have it - yet.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Jef,

Don't get me wrong I think the Prius is a neat vehicle. Four of my neighbours drive them. I've tried them out and I like them it's just that when you're looking at value you are paying a real premium. I have a friend who is a scientist at the National Research Council, he was involved with a team that evaluated hybrids and other vehicles for their fuel efficiency. His team determined that a Volkswagon Diesel (Golf I think) beat out the competition. By the way, the Harper govt. will not allow their work to be published.

My own story is I determined I needed a wagon after considering small SUV's etc. I crossed the border into Syracuse NY and bought a Subaru Outback at a savings of $12k under the best price I could find in Canada. No regrets it's been a super car and the warranty has been honoured by Ottawa's Subaru dealer.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> I have a friend who is a scientist at the National Research Council, he was involved with a team that evaluated hybrids and other vehicles for their fuel efficiency. His team determined that a Volkswagon Diesel (Golf I think) beat out the competition. By the way, the Harper govt. will not allow their work to be published.


The NRC announces all of their studies in advance, but I haven't seen this one on the roster at all. The NRC usually doesn't get into consumer advocacy to begin with.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

jimbotelecom said:


> Jef,
> 
> Don't get me wrong I think the Prius is a neat vehicle. Four of my neighbours drive them. I've tried them out and I like them it's just that when you're looking at value you are paying a real premium. I have a friend who is a scientist at the National Research Council, he was involved with a team that evaluated hybrids and other vehicles for their fuel efficiency. His team determined that a Volkswagon Diesel (Golf I think) beat out the competition. By the way, the Harper govt. will not allow their work to be published.
> 
> My own story is I determined I needed a wagon after considering small SUV's etc. I crossed the border into Syracuse NY and bought a Subaru Outback at a savings of $12k under the best price I could find in Canada. No regrets it's been a super car and the warranty has been honoured by Ottawa's Subaru dealer.


The VW Golf Diesel is a smaller car so again its hard to compare directly. I have read reports on fuel economy - some say the Golf wins and some say Prius - it depends on the tests. 

'Clean Diesel' is a misnomer. New ULSD technologies are certainly _much_ cleaner than old diesel technology but still fall behind the Prius (but not all hybrids) as far as emissions go. And then there is the VW reliability issue, total cost of ownership and customer satisfaction reports that should also be considered in a purchase decision. 

ULSD diesel fuel is also required and was not widely available in the US until this year - I'm not sure how easy it is to find across Canada today. The Diesel Golf (formerly the Jetta) just came out this year so it will be a while before there is cost and reliability data.

Here is one of several articles that does include some discussion of emissions. Most articles just deal with deal with fuel consumption and performance.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Hybrid-Cars-Vs-Clean-Diesel&id=4524743


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

At the time I was shopping the highway mileage for the Prius was ~41MPG the Echo Highway was 

Prius highway mileage has improved since then but even at 50 over all to the 38 overall that I get, that's over 650,000 kms to pay off the price difference. Assuming of course the battery pack can hang in there for the full 25 years.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> At the time I was shopping the highway mileage for the Prius was ~41MPG the Echo Highway was
> 
> Prius highway mileage has improved since then but even at 50 over all to the 38 overall that I get, that's over 650,000 kms to pay off the price difference. Assuming of course the battery pack can hang in there for the full 25 years.


If you are only concerned about MPG and payback, there might not be incentive enough for you to trade your current car - and if you did and it is still in good shape, it would be a waste. I think I've pointed out a few more benefits (cleaner emissions for one) that a growing market segment are willing to pay for that doesn't involve paying a huge premium for the status badge or the 0 to 60 horsepower you will never (or shouldn't) use unless you are on a racetrack. (the Prius does 0 to 60 in 9.8 seconds - its not that slow!)








My 2001 Prius gets over 50 MPG (US) with cruise control at 110 kms/hr. If I am bored and use fuel saving techniques and work with the computer display (which is fun to do), I can get much better than this and maintain 120kms/hr on the highway. I admit, for my own entertainment, I do try to get 1,000 kms on each tank of gas ($38 dollars to fill yesterday - its getting expensive!) and I'm usually very close and often a bit over. There are many hyper milers who can do much better. My son has owned his for about 5 months now and he can better my fuel consumption on his new Prius - he was very happy about that.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

You know jef, it's fine that you like your Prius, but your insinuation that everyone who chose not to buy one was somehow fooled by marketing is just plain insulting.

Why don't you ride a bicycle if you're concerned about the environment so much?
Doesn't fit your needs? Well, then please respect the fact that other people have different needs in vehicles other than spending the absolute least amount of money on fuel. These people have not been fooled by marketing.

If the Prius meets your needs, then fine. But I looked at a Prius, and quite frankly, it just plain cost too much. I bought a smaller car, paid $20K, taxes included, and am averaging 6.6L/100k - sorry, but over the lifetime of this vehicle, I'll still have spend less money overall than if I bought a Prius.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

jef said:


> So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?


Yes, it's quite simple. People have different needs than you. For some it is status, but for others, it is driving experience. Why do you think saving on fuel is the number one priority for everyone? Why don't you move closer to work, or take public transit - then you'll save on more fuel too.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

By now most of you will agree that Jef is obsessed with Prius.

Anything he writes now or in the future will reflect that obsession.

I don't share his views and apparently most others in this thread do not either.

Conclusion: Jef's opinion is his own and he is welcome to it. I won't be wasting any further electrons debating with a Prius fanatic. Best of all, I can get much better mileage in any other thread.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

hayesk said:


> Yes, it's quite simple. People have different needs than you. For some it is status, but for others, it is driving experience. Why do you think saving on fuel is the number one priority for everyone? Why don't you move closer to work, or take public transit - then you'll save on more fuel too.


The priorities in my posts have not been about the money - the main problem is the tremendous amount of misinformation in the market that shapes buying decisions. I have repeatedly stated that it is more important for me as a buyer to contribute to reducing emissions by investing in new technologies rather than supporting old technologies rather than payback on fuel. And I really do think saving on fuel and emissions is a much smarter societal choice that more people would make if they had better information to work with when considering a car purchase. 

I live very close to work - I work mostly from home but have to travel to client sites so I do quite well on fuel. A car is needed because I carry equipment with me that could not be managed on public transportation.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> By now most of you will agree that Jef is obsessed with Prius.
> 
> Anything he writes now or in the future will reflect that obsession.
> 
> ...


If you are going to use the word obsessed, I would agree with you if it was describing the way I do feel about the _misinformation_ about hybrids, and the Prius in particular.

As an owner, I get so many people telling me things about my car (here and in shopping mall parking lots) and why they would not buy one based on information that is simply untrue. (like batteries fail and need replacing and cost 9,000, the energy to create the batteries makes a Hummer greener etc etc. - most of these fallacies have cropped up in this thread) This is my issue.

I do wish there were more options in the market than just the Prius - smaller, cheaper hybrids would be awesome, hybrid vans sell very well in Japan but so far they are not available to consumers here. Honda and other hybrid makers just don't have the technology right yet. As soon as I need a new vehicle, I hope that all-electric is available and viable at that time - I don't care who makes it. 

I have turned many PC owners into very happy Mac owners by being persistent and presenting facts. Sometimes it is very hard to convince a PC user that they really won't get viruses and that they can open Word documents on a Mac etc etc. But its been worth the effort when they do switch - especially when the calls to rescue them from their PC nightmares stop. It's the same logic and effort I put into correcting the myths that might keep people from considering a hybrid when making a car purchase. In the case of a car, the overall benefits are much greater in terms of reduced emissions and related heath issues.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

One of the reasons I won't drive a hybrid is because there is only one manual transmission hybrid available, and it only fits two and it's not even that fuel efficient. 

If we do ever need a second car, it would definitely be an electric, but we don't need a second car at this point. I don't need to use gas to get groceries but I do enjoy ripping up a nice twisty mountain road or two.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

jef said:


> And I really do think saving on fuel and emissions is a much smarter societal choice that more people would make if they had better information to work with when considering a car purchase.


And this is your problem - you still don't get it. You assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. This is the insulting part. We have the information, and it doesn't mesh with our needs in a vehicle. Please understand and respect that.

I'm sure if I visited you I could walk around your home and find lots of things that don't have the absolute smallest impact on society or the environment. I could suggest you find a new career that doesn't involve driving to visit clients. Wouldn't that be better? But I wouldn't do that because it's pointless. We all have to make tradeoffs between lifestyle and environmental impact. You chose to do so with your car purchase - good for you.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

hayesk said:


> And this is your problem - you still don't get it. You assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. This is the insulting part. We have the information, and it doesn't mesh with our needs in a vehicle. Please understand and respect that.


I don't assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. That would be silly.

I know from my own experience and others that because there is so much misinformation, many people who do decide not to consider one are doing so for the wrong reasons. Big difference!

If you need a truck or a 4X4 then they are certainly a better choice. I respect that. 

How hard its it to understand that correcting misinformation is a good thing especially for major purchases?


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

jef said:


> I don't assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. That would be silly.
> 
> I know from my own experience and others that because there is so much misinformation, many people who do decide not to consider one are doing so for the wrong reasons. Big difference!
> 
> ...


I would suggest that even if this (correcting misinformation) the message you intend to put across, that is not the overall message that most others are getting from you.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Sonal said:


> I would suggest that even if this (correcting misinformation) the message you intend to put across, that is not the overall message that most others are getting from you.


I have repeated it several times in my posts when people have responded only to the fuel payback issue, which is not my main point. It's kinda like PC users sticking to the 'there are no viruses only because there are fewer Macs' argument' when you are trying to tell them that the Mac is simply more secure...


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

jef said:


> I have repeated it several times in my posts when people have responded only to the fuel payback issue, which is not my main point.


As they say, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Despite your repeating yourself, I know I am not the only one that isn't getting that as your message.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Ditto what Sonal says.

By the way, I find the notion of the Mac OS being inherently more secure to be a thin premise indeed.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Sorry Jef but I view the hybrid as somewhat of a dead end intermediate step. Kind of like the Mac G5 chip or the Core Duo chip.

The Chevy Volt is somewhat closer but still not it. What is needed is a simple gas electric. 

Electric motor period. Not electric/engine combo, not gas engine driving generator which is also mechanically linked to the electric motor. 

A smaller less expensive battery pack. Small gas engine powers generator to charge batteries. Batteries run the electric motor. This is the system used in railroad engines and even those monster sized trucks used in open pit mines.

Beyond that Natural gas or even methane running a fuel cell.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yep Jef, you are a lonely man on an island it would seem. I just don't buy your brand of snake oil.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Sorry Jef but I view the hybrid as somewhat of a dead end intermediate step. Kind of like the Mac G5 chip or the Core Duo chip.
> 
> The Chevy Volt is somewhat closer but still not it. What is needed is a simple gas electric.
> 
> ...


I agree - but until there are better choices, its the best one we have - and it works very well. Burning one third of the fuel combined with cleaner overall emissions today is a step in the right direction. Hopefully soon there will be more options and electric-only vehicles to replace the hybrid. I really hope my next car is all-electric.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> Yep Jef, you are a lonely man on an island it would seem. I just don't buy your brand of snake oil.


Snake oil? Please point out the things I have stated that are false. All I have done is corrected some the false information that is so prevalent about hybrids. I am not 'selling' anything - all I wish to accomplish is to set the record straight and help people make better informed decisions. 

If someone decides not to pursue their interest in a Prius because they believe that they need to replace batteries at great cost during the life of the vehicle, they are making an uninformed decision. I hope that does not happen as often as it does.

Lonely? That was funny, Sinc...


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Max said:


> Ditto what Sonal says.
> 
> By the way, I find the notion of the Mac OS being inherently more secure to be a thin premise indeed.


Really? I said 'simply more secure' - which it is for the average user as far as viruses, of which there are several thousand for PC users. How many infections have you had that would lead you to believe otherwise? No computer is perfect and neither is any car. But some are more productive and efficient than others.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I am merely pointing out that claiming, as you do, that the Mac is more secure based on the fact that it's less targeted by malware hardly constitutes a stellar argument to make for its own intrinsic security as an OS. Should malware enthusiasts wish to mess with the OS, I've often heard it's not a problem. Someone who wants to make a splash in that arena is going to go after the big numbers - meaning the PC installed base, which remains far larger than the Mac base. In other words, it's not owing to any great advantage written into the Mac code base.

Is a Mac really more productive than others? My friends who mix music and do multimedia on PCs would scoff at your claim.

Anyway, back to the car thing we go. As for all-electrics arriving on Canada's roads, I think we will see a fair amount of government foot-dragging on that score.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

jef said:


> Snake oil? Please point out the things I have stated that are false.


Certainly. "Prius is somehow (in your mind only) a superior automobile."

That is false.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

jef said:


> I don't assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. That would be silly.
> 
> I know from my own experience and others that because there is so much misinformation, many people who do decide not to consider one are doing so for the wrong reasons. Big difference!


How is "doesn't have good information" any different than "doing so for the wrong reasons?" To me, that is exactly what you said, just in different words. To prove me wrong, just state this:

Many people who decided not to consider a Prius did so for the right reasons. There are other sedans that fit some people's needs better than a Prius.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

hayesk said:


> How is "doesn't have good information" any different than "doing so for the wrong reasons?" To me, that is exactly what you said, just in different words. To prove me wrong, just state this:
> 
> Many people who decided not to consider a Prius did so for the right reasons. There are other sedans that fit some people's needs better than a Prius.


Sorry for the delay - I've been busy...

I'm still trying to make sense out of what you asked but here are real examples:

There are lots of people who are interested in buying a hybrid so they reduce their emissions and get better fuel economy at the same time. BUT they read 'somewhere' or 'heard from a friend' that hybrid batteries are expensive and need replacing so they did not buy one. Or, they read 'somewhere' or 'heard from a friend' that the cost of production is so high for battery production, it offsets the advantages of driving one, so they chose a compact car.

In these cases, the decision making information is wrong - so they decided to buy another car - for the wrong reasons. 

This is unfortunate because these buyers did not get what they wanted based on incorrect information and instead of investing in next generation technologies, they ended up supporting old technology for the next few years. 

The evidence of this happening is everywhere and here in the posts in this thread - there are people who have stated that they were interested but ...a salesman said the price of battery replacement would be $9,000?! and someone else said that the cost of battery production 'evens out' over the lifetime of the car. I hear these statements often - but they are wrong.

Today, I persuaded 2 PC owners (clients) to consider a Mac for their teen-aged kids for Christmas. It was hard work but I think they will go for it. I hope these kids get an awesome present this year...


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

What if someone simply doesn't care for the Prius, and prefers some other vehicle?

Some might prefer the styling, performance, or comfort of a different vehicle - does that make them shallow, or uninformed? Some people choose a vehicle based on "status" (including some Prius drivers), but there are other reasons to choose one vehicle over another.

BTW - what do you think of the Volt? Seems to me the plug hybrid capability "out Priuses the Prius" for most commutes, if they could combine this with smart metering and renewables to charge the car in the most efficient manner possible they would be on to something...


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

PenguinBoy said:


> What if someone simply doesn't care for the Prius, and prefers some other vehicle?
> 
> Some might prefer the styling, performance, or comfort of a different vehicle - does that make them shallow, or uninformed? Some people choose a vehicle based on "status" (including some Prius drivers), but there are other reasons to choose one vehicle over another.
> 
> BTW - what do you think of the Volt? Seems to me the plug hybrid capability "out Priuses the Prius" for most commutes, if they could combine this with smart metering and renewables to charge the car in the most efficient manner possible they would be on to something...


I realise that MANY people choose not to by a Prius for many reasons. Many of these people are misinformed when it comes to the many myths that surround hybrids like battery replacement and production issues. If these myths were corrected, there may be many more happy hybrid owners on the road. The hybrid system in the Prius is not the same as other hybrids and that is why I use the Prius as an example. Plus I own and have had 4 in my family starting from 2001, so I can speak from first hand experience for the lack of maintenance required and the low overall cost of ownership.

Not enough information is known about the Volt - its not on the road yet. I'm following the story but there is still lots of conflicting information. It looks like Nissan will have an interesting all-electric offer soon and I hope its launch in Canada comes soon.Nissan LEAF Electric Car | Home | Nissan Canada Official Site


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

jef said:


> Many of these people are misinformed when it comes to the many myths that surround hybrids


Your continued bashing of people who don't buy a Prius is getting very tiresome.

Here's a news flash for you. I don't like, nor have any use for a Prius and will never buy one.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> Your continued bashing of people who don't buy a Prius is getting very tiresome.
> 
> Here's a news flash for you. I don't like, nor have any use for a Prius and will never buy one.


You are mistaken, Sinc - I'm not bashing people who don't buy one. All I am doing is pointing out the misinformation that does exist that does stop many people (not everyone) from considering a car that really does make economical and environmental sense.

I find it very strange that you would react so emotionally - even my 13 year old has grown out of that stage of life! Don't read the thread if you don't like it.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jef said:


> I find it very strange that you would react so emotionally - even my 13 year old has grown out of that stage of life! Don't read the thread if you don't like it.


Don't read a rational breakdown of costs, if it causes you to spew insults.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Don't read a rational breakdown of costs, if it causes you to spew insults.


I have read a rational breakdown of costs - but not many in this thread. What insults have been spewed?


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

jef said:


> You are mistaken, Sinc - I'm not bashing people who don't buy one. All I am doing is pointing out the misinformation that does exist that does stop many people (not everyone) from considering a car that really does make economical and environmental sense.
> 
> I find it very strange that you would react so emotionally - even my 13 year old has grown out of that stage of life! Don't read the thread if you don't like it.


jef: Yes, we get it. You're right, everyone else is wrong, but they're not wrong because they're wrong, they're wrong because they're _misinformed_ and only you know the truth.

Thank you for sharing your insights on the Prius. However the rest of us are not complete idiots and may have chosen other vehicles for reasons other than _misinformation_.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

jef said:


> You are mistaken, Sinc - I'm not bashing people who don't buy one.


Oh, really?




jef said:


> NA consumers are still too married to impractical marketing





jef said:


> If you don't consider emissions (not only carbon footprint) to be important, that is your right. I assume that you also think smoking is healthy and we should continue to dump toxic waste into our drinking water. It is not 'sensible' in any way to put economy of operation over the environment.





jef said:


> Most people have very wrong assumptions about the hybrids on the roads today.





jef said:


> But there are lots of buyers that can afford a Prius who spend the same or even more money on a car that is a lot harder on the environment





jef said:


> the majority of first time Prius buyers are well educated, professional people who are looking to reduce emissions and contribute to new, cleaner technologies. Not people who are looking for a cheap car..





jef said:


> If you see a phallic symbol in a car, I think you need help...





jef said:


> Lots of people have made the decision not to buy based on erroneous information.





jef said:


> I know there is so much misinformation as clearly demonstrated in this thread (and others) that people are making decisions - important ones - based on incorrect information, .





jef said:


> I have a friend who talks total crap and says the same thing





jef said:


> I am quite aware that people don't make purchases based on reality. .





jef said:


> I'm glad you like your cheap car.





jef said:


> I know from my own experience and others that because there is so much misinformation, many people who do decide not to consider one are doing so for the wrong reasons.





jef said:


> If someone decides not to pursue their interest in a Prius because they believe that they need to replace batteries at great cost during the life of the vehicle, they are making an uninformed decision.





jef said:


> Many of these people are misinformed when it comes to the many myths that surround hybrids


MLeh said it best:



MLeh said:


> jef: Yes, we get it. You're right, everyone else is wrong, but they're not wrong because they're wrong, they're wrong because they're _misinformed_ and only you know the truth.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your insights on the Prius. However the rest of us are not complete idiots and may have chosen other vehicles for reasons other than _misinformation_.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jef said:


> I have read a rational breakdown of costs - but not many in this thread. What insults have been spewed?


Might have been the part where you suggested that SINC had the temperament of someone under 13 years of age.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

These glorious tales of Prius are delivered with the same zeal of people I see at the health food store preaching the life-affirming values of flax seed or colon cleansing. If you choose not buy their products, you're essentially the victim of some misinformation campaign, and damning yourself to hell. Why can't they be happy stuffing their own colons full of seeds?


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

jef said:


> I realise that MANY people choose not to by a Prius for many reasons. Many of these people are misinformed when it comes to the many myths that surround hybrids like battery replacement and production issues. If these myths were corrected, there may be many more happy hybrid owners on the road.


Even if you want a hybrid, there are other choices that may be better than a Prius for some.

If I was in the market for a hybrid (I'm not...) I would likely choose a Fusion Hybrid over a Prius. The dull, boring, anonymous styling of the Fusion would allow me to blend into traffic and slip by unnoticed without attracting attention from fanboys and haters.

While the Fusion Hybrid uses a bit more fuel than a Prius, I expect it has better driving dynamics. I've never driven the Fusion Hybrid, but I've driven a number of Fusions and they are quite fun to drive - especially in 3.5 Sport AWD trim. The Fusion is also a larger, more comfortable car.

While the Fusion interior is nothing special, I've spent enough time riding in Vancouver taxi cabs to know I would much rather sit inside a Fusion than a Prius.


jef said:


> Plus I own and have had 4 in my family starting from 2001, so I can speak from first hand experience for the lack of maintenance required and the low overall cost of ownership.


The Prius has pretty good reliability stats - but it is hardly unique in this regard. In fact, ~most~ modern cars are pretty reliable these days.

If ownership costs are important there are other, better, choices. As someone else pointed out, a Civic sedan offers lower ownership cost. I suspect if you were to find a leftover, new, unloved, deeply discounted Cobalt you could get even lower ownership costs right now if you pay (not very much) cash for it up front, and drive it for five years until the warranty is done. You will pay very little for fuel and maintenance, and could probably still get $5k for it when you are finished with it.


jef said:


> Not enough information is known about the Volt - its not on the road yet. I'm following the story but there is still lots of conflicting information.


Initial reviews are quite promising:
Review: 2011 Chevrolet Volt | The Truth About Cars
Review: 2011 Chevrolet Volt Take Two | The Truth About Cars

A "conventional" hybrid such as a Fusion or a Prius would likely be a better choice for Taxi duty, but for a private car that sits parked 90% of the time a plug hybrid looks like a better choice. Folks that have a commute of less than 60km round trip will use little or no gas in their day to day commute, but still have the option of longer trips with decent fuel economy.


jef said:


> It looks like Nissan will have an interesting all-electric offer soon and I hope its launch in Canada comes soon.Nissan LEAF Electric Car | Home | Nissan Canada Official Site


Range and recharging time are pretty big limitations to a pure EV. For most private users, a plug hybrid such as the Volt will be a better choice than a Leaf.

An EV can make sense as a third or fourth car used *only* for commuting where the daily mileage will be well within it's limited range. I expect there will be a place for EVs, but I doubt they will be able to replace ICE powered cars.

As an aside, there is some interesting work on EVs being done right here in Calgary by these folks: MOTIVE INDUSTRIES INC. Driving Innovation

Bottom line: There are many good reasons for even informed, environmentally aware consumers to choose something other than a Prius. My shoes fit me well - that doesn't mean you should get a pair...


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

To be fair I might have bought a Prius, IF there had been a two year old Prius available for under $13,000. As it is I can tell you that over the six years I have owned the Echo it has cost ~25¢/mile (17¢/km) to drive. That includes gas, oil, maintenance, repairs, insurance, depreciation, washer fluid.... Absolutely every penny that has gone into the car is included. 

Something tells me that because of higher insurance and depreciation, Jef's Prius cannot match that number.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

eMacMan said:


> To be fair I might have bought a Prius, IF there had been a two year old Prius available for under $13,000. As it is I can tell you that over the six years I have owned the Echo it has cost ~25¢/mile (17¢/km) to drive. That includes gas, oil, maintenance, repairs, insurance, depreciation, washer fluid.... Absolutely every penny that has gone into the car is included.
> 
> Something tells me that because of higher insurance and depreciation, Jef's Prius cannot match that number.


I have a 2004 Echo as well, with just over 33,000km on it. I have looked at the Prius ever since they came out, but felt that with the amount of driving I do, and the nature of city driving here in St.John's, especially in the wintertime, the Echo was the right choice for me, Gas costs more here in St.John's than where you are, but I am getting 30mpg, which is fine with me.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> I have a 2004 Echo as well, with just over 33,000km on it. I have looked at the Prius ever since they came out, but felt that with the amount of driving I do, and the nature of city driving here in St.John's, especially in the wintertime, the Echo was the right choice for me, Gas costs more here in St.John's than where you are, but I am getting 30mpg, which is fine with me.


Altitude must make a difference as the only time I have gotten less than 32 MPG was in the dead of winter, -20 temps and all city/stop and stop driving. Year round average is 37+ but more of those than average are highway miles.

OTH your engine is not yet broken in.

Economically the only way the Prius makes sense is high mileage city driving. From a pollution stand point keeping your annual mileage down around 5500 K is making a far more positive contribution than buying a more fuel efficient car ever could.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I love how this thread is interrupted by a Jetta ad... mind you the new Jetta is meh (MKIV ftw) but yea.

I agree with eMacMan, Dr.G. your little driving does more for the environment than a hybrid ever will. We are trying our best to reduce the driving in our household.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

dona83 said:


> I love how this thread is interrupted by a Jetta ad... mind you the new Jetta is meh (MKIV ftw) but yea.
> 
> I agree with eMacMan, Dr.G. your little driving does more for the environment than a hybrid ever will. We are trying our best to reduce the driving in our household.


Luckily, I work from home and can walk to most stores or even my office on campus, and my son and wife can walk to work, but are only a 5-7 minute drive to work, depending upon the traffic. I have to admit that most of the time the car sits in the driveway.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

eMacMan said:


> Altitude must make a difference as the only time I have gotten less than 32 MPG was in the dead of winter, -20 temps and all city/stop and stop driving. Year round average is 37+ but more of those than average are highway miles.
> 
> OTH your engine is not yet broken in.
> 
> Economically the only way the Prius makes sense is high mileage city driving. From a pollution stand point keeping your annual mileage down around 5500 K is making a far more positive contribution than buying a more fuel efficient car ever could.


We do no highway driving, so it is only in the city and the only thing I insist on is no starting up the car and letting it idle for 10 minutes while it warms up -- 30 seconds of idle is plenty.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

5 Reasons Electric Cars Will Disappoint- Yahoo! Autos Article Page


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Economically the only way the Prius makes sense is high mileage city driving.


This is not true. The Prius is most efficient on rural/suburban roads but it will have better mileage than almost every other vehicle on the road and certainly lower emissions even at highway speeds.

Yes - not driving as much is obviously better but your low mileage car will retain a high resale value and it will probably end its life with much higher mileage than you might put on it.


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## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> 5 Reasons Electric Cars Will Disappoint- Yahoo! Autos Article Page


This is a reasonable article - the market is not ready for all electric - yet. The claim of high battery costs is the same one that was initially made about hybrids and turned out not to be a factor. I hope it is the same for electric cars when they hit the road. As production increases, the price will come down. Recycling will also kick in as these batteries are designed to be recycled.

Also, even the dirtiest coal generated electricity coming from the grid equals about 15% of the emissions that a regular car would generate. An 85% reduction is better than none.

I plan on being an early adopter once all electrics become available. Meanwhile, hybrids are currently proving their reliability and moving the market in the right direction. The plug in Prius might also be a good interim choice if the first electrics do not stand up to expectations as far as reliability and infrastructure support goes in the next couple of years.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> We do no highway driving, so it is only in the city and the only thing I insist on is no starting up the car and letting it idle for 10 minutes while it warms up -- 30 seconds of idle is plenty.


Love that theory, but at -20°C, mine idles until all the windows are clear. I do help with the ice dozer but until I know I can see the car goes no-where. Still I was reviewing my records and only 4 fill-ups over 6 years and 150,000 Kms were less than 30 MPG (US) and all were very cold city driving conditions. I will happily pay for the extra for gas under those conditions and obviously the CO2 released failed to warm the environment by the slightest amount. BTW Normal winter driving is about 32-35 mpg city.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ditto here if my windows are iced up, I will idle for 15 minutes so I have a clear view all the way around before I move. Of course my heated garage makes that a rare occurence when I leave it outside at a meeting or while shopping.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

15 minutes? 5 minutes is usually enough on the worst days. Turn on the car then get that ice scraper out. It's usually the fog on the inside that has to clear. In our underground garage though, we never have problems. 

On normal days, 30 seconds + a couple of minutes of light driving through the neighbourhood.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

dona83 said:


> 15 minutes? 5 minutes is usually enough on the worst days.


Have you forgotten what -40° is like when a vehicle has been outside, unattended in the snow and blowing snow for six hours, from your days in Edmonton?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

jef said:


> This is a reasonable article - the market is not ready for all electric - yet. The claim of high battery costs is the same one that was initially made about hybrids and turned out not to be a factor. I hope it is the same for electric cars when they hit the road. As production increases, the price will come down. Recycling will also kick in as these batteries are designed to be recycled.
> 
> Also, even the dirtiest coal generated electricity coming from the grid equals about 15% of the emissions that a regular car would generate. An 85% reduction is better than none.
> 
> I plan on being an early adopter once all electrics become available. Meanwhile, hybrids are currently proving their reliability and moving the market in the right direction. The plug in Prius might also be a good interim choice if the first electrics do not stand up to expectations as far as reliability and infrastructure support goes in the next couple of years.


Actually get the price down and all electrics or electrics supplemented with a 500cc generator make sense for commuting. However CO2 emissions are a relatively minor concern. Add even10KWH/day to the average household use and suddenly you need more power generation and more high voltage transmission lines to get it to the cities. Hydro sounds good until you factor in the environmental devastation that accompanies big hydro projects. We have all seen the problems related to nuclear power generation. And while you may want massive high power lines running through your back yard, many farmers and ranchers do not. As has also been pointed out wind turbines kill more birds by a factor of 100s as compared to the oil sands. Oh and case you had not noticed Canada does not have a lot of daylight during the four months when extra power generation is most needed.

Beyond that extra capacity is a big time expense and a reduction in gas tax revenue means that governments will need to make that up as well, probably by tacking an additional tax onto our electric bills. So the net result could easily see seniors on fixed incomes facing electric bills that double or even worse.

Again I am sure you can afford to see your utilities double or perhaps quadruple but many of us cannot.

So while I favour electric vehicles I think an annual fee to replace lost gas tax revenue is in order for those vehicles. Perhaps a secondary fee to help offset the need for greater power generation capacity should also be considered.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I must've been only 5, I just remember the car being really cold, much colder in the car than it was outside. lol.

It got down to -23 with windchill in 2008! Brrr!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

dona83 said:


> I must've been only 5, I just remember the car being really cold, much colder in the car than it was outside. lol.
> 
> It got down to -23 with windchill in 2008! Brrr!


Pre-fuel injection days I can remember having to sit out there with my foot on the throttle for five minute just to get the carb warmed up enough that it would idle without icing. Came back inside and had a hot cuppa then back out to a still cold car with square wheels. I also remember the one Ford I owned. Hard to reach the cable connection to the starter and it would suddenly need to be scraped clean just as the temps dipped to about -30°F.

Newer cars do much better at extremely cold temps. Usually if the battery will crank it they start. 

If it hits -40° nowadays my plan is to just stay home until things warm up or really bundle up and walk.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ahem:

Toyota to fix 650,000 Prius hybrids for heat risk | Reuters


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