# Amber Alert Info:Tori Stafford



## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Amber alert info: Tori stafford*

Hello ehMac Community:

Over the past few weeks, I have used my limited resources to offer whatever assistance and suggestions possible in hopes of finding the little *8-yr-old Woodstock ON girl, Tori (Victoria) Stafford. * Tori has been missing for 15 days.

I'd hoped that the child be found and that some of the more well-connected members of ehMac could offer* intelligent search suggestions*; there are so many of you. There are chronological articles in the *Star, on Canoe, CTV, CP24 and a Facebook* site started by Tori's aunt. I'm posting the websites for today's Star article as well as the Facbook site. Police have just released a drawing of the possible abductor. I am hoping that all who see this post will forward it and expand further, the search community. Posted below is the most current picture of little Tori Stafford, her abductor plus the enhanced surveillance video. This is a very young, small little 8-year old child. With worldwide travel accessible to all, I believe that en masse awareness may help return this child to her parents. *Please take a moment and look at the pics, articles, and websites. Thank you people, in advance for your care and concern.* It really does take a world to raise and keep a child safe.

YouTube - Police release enhanced video of Victoria Stafford

Web addresses for sites connected to the abduction of Tori Stafford

TheStar.com | Ontario | Sketch of Tori's abductor stirs flurry of leads

Help Find Victoria Stafford | Facebook

*ORIGINAL SURVEILLANCE VIDEO for Tori Stafford*

YouTube - Surveillance of missing Victoria "Tori" Stafford

Thanks to all in ehMac who take the time to look and hopefully, respond.
Ciaochiao


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

sketch looks like the mother...

our prayers are they find her safe and sound...
Police really dropped the ball on this case.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*All our hopes*

Hi M Doctor:
Initially, i thought it was an odd case anyway. But regardless as to how incompetent the police are and other issues which leave much to desire, my hopes are that THIS COMMUNITY can try and put together a few thoughts and put them forward. i have seen and participated in several threads in which the level of philosophical postulates transcend normal conversations. For that reason, I hope that perhaps a few of our ehMac citizens can offer some thoughts as to what they feel may have happened. I think that the police force will have a very, very difficult time defending their positions when this investigation closes. At that point, I am fully prepared to initiate a thread discussing that issue on it's own. But in a short word, yes, they didn't just drop the ball. If the case resolves in the manner that I believe it will, the police will have a mulit-million dollar lawsuit on their hands. 

Please people, do offer your thoughts. i know that there are enough brain cells in this forum to start a brand new society so please, post your thoughts. Sherlock Holmes yourselves if but for one post. Thank you so much.
CC


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I would be frantic if it were my son missing as in this situation.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

macintosh doctor said:


> sketch looks like the mother...
> 
> our prayers are they find her safe and sound...
> Police really dropped the ball on this case.


As the mother pointed out, she has lighter hair, is 7" taller and has about 60 pounds more than the estimates for the person sketched. Having seen her interviewed a bunch of times, she also looks very different.

She laughed off comparisons to her looks--what else could one do?--and had some only mildly unkind things to say about thoughtless remarks drawing comparisons without having had a good look at her and the sketch.

Imagine having a child abducted this way and people saying you looked like the sketch. Really now.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

HowEver said:


> Imagine having a child abducted this way and people saying you looked like the sketch. Really now.


I have two children myself.. trust me i feel for the family soo much..
during the 80s.. my brother was halled into a police station during the banardo days..
because he looked like the sketch - likely his DNA proved otherwise...

I was just observing.. I am glad they interviewed the parents because the sketch as off or as close as it is - all leads need to be followed up. ( my observation is not far off - not the first time in history a parent has done this to their own chid )

do not get so righteous with me - I have lived it all, minus having my kids abducted - hopefully never do... as I mentioned earlier I hope / pray they find the child, safe and sound.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Emotions running high*



macintosh doctor said:


> I have two children myself.. trust me i feel for the family soo much..
> during the 80s.. my brother was halled into a police station during the banardo days..
> because he looked like the sketch - likely his DNA proved otherwise...
> 
> ...


Hello All:

I'm sure that macintosh doctor was not trying to be unkind- and yes, there have been a few cases in which the mother killed her own children for the 'man' she loved. The most recent being the penny boudreau and susan smith cases. i don't think anyone was prepared for the Fritzl case especially with the mother living directly above her imprisoned daughter. I posted this thread on the assumption that some of the great thinkers in these threads, could see things the rest of us don't i just wanted to get some ideas out into the situation. I appreciate all of you taking the time to look at this. 

As for your compassion However, your feelings are like those from hundreds of other genuine human beings. You are thankfully, the 'norm' who comprise our so-called society, it is almost unheard of internationally when a parent hurts a child but look around you. The question, in spite of it's naturally distasteful nature must always be asked, in order to rule out the parent as a suspect. Like you, I'm sure that al of us desire a similar outcome and that is of peace and reunion. Thanks to both of you for taking a moment to have a look.

PLEASE PEOPLE, KEEP RESPONDING.
CC


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

I have no suggestions right now but I will keep pondering it.

IMHO: No idea/observation/suggestion is a bad one to consider.....while it may not directly lead to an answer, just the mere consideration of it may lead to other ideas......


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Thank you*

Hi KC4:

Thank you so much for supporting the notion of an 'idea-a-thon'. I've been actively discussing and reading as much as possible about the abduction. I DON'T want this thread to turn into a 'cop bashing', parent-bashing thread. As I stated in my letter to Toronto's Star, there will be time to deal with those parties after Tori is found. 

I found the picture to be quite detailed and looks very much like a 'real' person rather than fling-flong attempts to draw. You're an artist so i must defer to you!! At any rate, i think that the woman's face is rather generic as i can recall a few people I've known in my life who resemble this female. All of my friends who look like her are native people. I used to live in Regina and went to school with many of our native population. Many of them have that high cheekbone, narrower lower face. I don't know. But again, your statement: NO idea/observation, etc, is bad, is VERY GOOD!! Hope that made sense. Thanks for taking the time to ponder things. i know how brilliant you are and for that, i'm grateful..
CC


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## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

I have lived in Woodstock for the past 5 years, and I must say that the community has pulled together for this. I just hope she is safe. The only thing that bothers me is that Tori seems so comfortable with this woman.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I haven't commented as the whole thing seems so odd including the apparently familiarity with the other girl.

What I want to know is have the police found the people they walked by....I mean surely that parent and kids saw something but not a peep....

YouTube - Surveillance of missing Victoria "Tori" Stafford

Very strange the whole thing including the way the police were handling it..


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*video*

Hello Everyone;
I'm really glad to see more of us here with thoughts and ruminations. Thank you so much for doing your part as well. 

DR Hannon, it must be so stressful on your community. My son and I were directly affected by the tragedy that struck Holly Jones and her family. It was so painful. I can't fathom what your community must be feeling right now. With only 35,000 people, I'm quite certain that everyone knows everyone else even if they're not close friends. if you have the chance, please let them know that the ehMac group is trying to do whatever they can as well. i too, hope that Tori is returned soon and healthy. 

MacDoc, i haven't looked at the video you posted. is it the same as the one I used in the opening post - ie, the enhanced video? As for getting hold of the people and cars that passed by tori and the unknown, it really wouldn't matter if they found them or not. I have a relatively good memory. To be completely honest with you, unless a person is doing something out of the ordinary, I am likely to forget what they looked like. Moreover, i would likely not even realized that they had walked by me. We can't expect anyone to notice another person without a good reason. As you can see by the videos, there was nothing out of the ordinary. The unknown was not pulling, pushing, or distressing Tori in any manner. Tori herself did not behave in a manner that would cause attention. 

The picture is an enigma to me. If all they had/have is the enhanced surveillance video then how is it they could make out a face with such accuracy in detail? If we consider for a moment, that the police have only the enhanced video and no other apparent leads, then they must be getting the description off of other eyewitnesses, which would include the people that Tori and the unknown walked by. A while back, after Tori was missing by about 5 days, someone put out the thought that this was not a stranger-abduction because Tori was 'happily' skipping along. He went on to say that the unknown may be someone who Tori sees/saw regularly but only on a temporary basis. Examples of this could be: a lifeguard, camp counsellor, librarian (I threw that one in), or other 'transient' position connected to Tori's everyday schedule. This may well be and it does make a lot of sense. I'm reposting the pics and video because i don't know how to 'bump' things up on each new page. If this can be done in ehMac, please let me know and it will obviate the copy paste method. Again, thanks for your input and efforts. And DR Hannon, please don't forget to give Tori's family our best.
Ciaochiao


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Stats bumped*

YouTube - Police release enhanced video of Victoria Stafford 
I believe that MacDoc's may be the original, so I'm not pulling that one forward.

TheStar.com | Ontario | Sketch of Tori's abductor stirs flurry of leads

Help Find Victoria Stafford | Facebook

Thank you so much ehmac. Again, if you know how to 'bump' in the info or pull it forward, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to do this.
Ciachiao


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Today they say...*

Whether sagacious or not, i tend to follow CTV as the news source for my family. in addition, i read at least three different news journals. Today, CTV is saying that there are more 'strange' developments. Can SOMEONE here in the ehMac land of brains, please review the CTV 6;00 p.m report and comment on what you think they mean by 'strange'? As MD stated, there are many things 'weird' things about this entire abduction. i don't care. I just want to see the little girls home. Anyone? Anyone at all??
CC


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

DR Hannon said:


> I have lived in Woodstock for the past 5 years, and I must say that the community has pulled together for this. I just hope she is safe. The only thing that bothers me is that Tori seems so comfortable with this woman.


Obviously because everything points to the mother being the culprit. It is funny how she has been talking about paying ransom, even though no ransom note has appeared. And I don't expect one to appear, the poor kid has probably already been murdered, to be found decades from now in some bush lot.

It's alot like that case years ago in the Carolina's where the "kids" disappeared - but it ended up that the mom killed them and shoved a truck they were in into a lake...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well it turns out the parents knew the abductors/murderers 



> Man charged with murder of Tori Stafford
> 
> 
> CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD
> ...


more

globeandmail.com: Man charged with murder of Tori Stafford

such a shame 

Echoes of Bernardo here with a woman accomplice....glad he's caught.


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## Digital_Gary (Sep 18, 2003)

A friend in the area says there is a police helicopter over Rockwood right now. Poor little girl.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

That is terrible. Saddening story. My sympathies for the family.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*no!!*

This is not, i repeat, NOT, NOT NOT how a child is to live a life. i am simply too upset and angry and hurt to respond with any shred of logic at this point. I have not gotten past Holly Jones nor a few other incidents which actually touched my life personally. My eldest and I were friends of Shauna, Holly's oldest sister who was about 18 when Holly was abducted, murdered, dismembered, and thrown all over central Toronto. I cannot believe that action was not taken in a swifter and more aggressive manner as soon as they knew Tori was missing. Excuse my rant but quite candidly, there are many unforgivable acts of 'merde' here. Shame falls on so many. A child. 8 years old. Skipping and smiling with a known family acquaintance. Maybe Rodney Stafford would like some help?
CC


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

ciaochiao said:


> This is not, i repeat, NOT, NOT NOT how a child is to live a life. i am simply too upset and angry and hurt to respond with any shred of logic at this point. I have not gotten past Holly Jones nor a few other incidents which actually touched my life personally. My eldest and I were friends of Shauna, Holly's oldest sister who was about 18 when Holly was abducted, murdered, dismembered, and thrown all over central Toronto. I cannot believe that action was not taken in a swifter and more aggressive manner as soon as they knew Tori was missing. Excuse my rant but quite candidly, there are many unforgivable acts of 'merde' here. Shame falls on so many. A child. 8 years old. Skipping and smiling with a known family acquaintance. Maybe Rodney Stafford would like some help?
> CC


This is another reason but one of many - i pray they bring back Capital punishment, Canadian laws are too soft.

When I heard the news today - while i was driving, it shocked me; because i was on my way to pick up my 3 year old from Montessori, i can not explain - what i would do to those people if it happened to us.

Our deepest sympathies go out to the parents..
we can only hope for prison justice at this point.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> This is another reason but one of many - i pray they bring back Capital punishment, Canadian laws are too soft.


Forget the death penalty, it's a waste of time... deviant piece of crap like this should be found "accidentally" hanging in their cells just before trial.


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## Digital_Gary (Sep 18, 2003)

kps said:


> Forget the death penalty, it's a waste of time... deviant piece of crap like this should be found "accidentally" hanging in their cells just before trial.


I too would like to see them swinging but getting another inmate to do "our" dirty work is not the greatest answer either.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

*Prison is too good*

People who are convicted of brutally raping and murdering children should be banished to a remote island similar to Alcatraz and left to fend for themselves. They can kill each other for all I care.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Why echoes of Stephen Trustcott mob justice.....

WHEN convicted, he will be off the streets like Bernardo....


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Why echoes of Stephen Trustcott mob justice.....
> 
> WHEN convicted, he will be off the streets like Bernardo....


They want to see the guilty parties killed for their crime, as I do. Get over yourself. If you think justice was served in the Bernardo case I am appalled.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*No comparison*

There is no comparison between Bernardo, this case, and steven truscott. Please - don't lump Truscott in there. Today, we have DNA methods of proving guilt. The two creatures who have admitted to their crime regarding Tori Stafford also sexually molested her. Their DNA will be all over the evidence. As for Bernardo, it's too bad he's in protective isolation. it must be a good thing to commit heinous crimes then get fed and housed 24 hrs a day. Gee, I'm behind on my mortgage, my kids need food, perhaps I should just go 'off' someone - maybe these two current scums plus Bernardo would be a good start? At least i'll have 'earned' my keep in prison.

I am obviously missing something between macF and md but quite frankly, this is not a thread where glib and bull**** responses should be tolerated. This is a human life that was callously exterminated by some creatures that disguise themselves in human bodies. Sensitivity is usually a part of the human response. I hope everyone here has a good dose in their grey matter.
CC


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Ciao, I am so tired of parties who are unaffected by the crime feeling magnanimous and calling for mercy and leniency for murdering scum. There's nothing more to it than that. If they feel lenient toward people who try to kill them or kill their children they have that right, but I don't want such a pronuncement to be delivered with an air of moral superiority.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Yes*



Macfury said:


> Ciao, I am so tired of parties who are unaffected by the crime feeling magnanimous and calling for mercy and leniency for murdering scum. There's nothing more to it than that. If they feel lenient toward people who try to kill them or kill their children they have that right, but I don't want such a pronuncement to be delivered with an air of moral superiority.


Hi macF:
yes, I understand what you're saying. In fact, I have been very, very upset for the entire day even though i permitted myself the banal viewing of AI. I have 3 kids. I haven't stopped crying today. I want to see these people exterminated so that there's no chance of their genetics perpetuated in society. I can't imagine anyone NOT affected by things like this. I realize that perhaps I'm overly emotional but I don't really care. This entire case has upset almost everyone from the start. I wish the police hadn't held the Stafford family back at the court house today. The Staffords deserve the right to met out whatever emotions they have inside after the loss of their little girl. Justice does not prevail and unfortunately in cases like this, what exactly is justice? Incidentally, for those who feel leniency towards scum, I suggest that they house them, feed them, and clothe them for the remainder of their natural lives. They'll need to have a permanent set of handcuffs to ensure that the scum remain 'attached' to their saviors. 
CC


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Mob knows best.......

•••

Detailed coverage

TheStar.com | Ontario | Gut feelings drove neighbours


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

MacDoc said:


> Why echoes of Stephen Trustcott mob justice.....
> 
> WHEN convicted, he will be off the streets like Bernardo....


Where is the justice?
you are one confused person.... 
keeping a person in jail and feeding and nourishing him - is not justice!
also keeping him from others in the prison population is special treatment too.
they do not deserve it..

as for Mr. Trustcott - that was the police dropping the ball again... like they did in the Tori's case... not issuing an amber alert because they weren't really sure she was missing... ludicrous..

if we can prove it 100% by DNA, or confessions - we should let them hang or what was that medieval contraption- where you tie them up and stretch them until they rip apart? - that is justice....... also we should do it like they do in muslim countries: public be heading and hangings - so the public have that fear, if you go a crime - pay the fine.


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

I am a resident of Woodstock, born and raised here. 

We are in total shock. 

Many of us were hoping that there would be a more logical explanation to all of this. Personally, I was hoping that it would turn out to be a family dispute of some nature and that Tori was tucked away somewhere safe with a family member who loved her. No one wanted to face the reality that something this awful could happen in our own backyard. 

Woodstock officially lost it's innocence yesterday and for many of us, Victoria Day will mean something entirely different from this day forward.

As most of us have, we have been through a whole range of emotions over the recent weeks. As angry as I am, my heart goes out to Tori's family. NO ONE should ever have to go through this. The people responsible will eventually get what's coming to them, we need to support Tori's family right now. I just hope that that Terri-Lynn didn't get a "Homolka deal" because that was just wrong.

I gave my daughter an extra big hug yesterday.

Heartbroken in Woodstock.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

MacDoc said:


> Why echoes of Stephen Trustcott mob justice.....
> 
> WHEN convicted, he will be off the streets like Bernardo....





MacDoc said:


> Mob knows best.......
> 
> •••
> 
> ...


MD, IMHO you are coming across as being flip. Don't you feel outraged or at least sad about defenseless children being raped and murdered?


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Macfury said:


> They want to see the guilty parties killed for their crime, as I do. Get over yourself. If you think justice was served in the Bernardo case I am appalled.


Justice in Canada - where filth like Bernardo and Olsen get to loaf around in luxury, with special privleges, and all free Internet they can handle.

I think we need a dose of some real justice, and not this effete secret hangings, but the real thing, so everyone can see. That's why Stintson gave the land in Hamilton for Prince's Square in the first place, so the filth could see what would happen any time they went to and from the hay market.

I don't know what all the shock is - there are so many drugs and drug abusers in Woodstock that this kind of thing was bound to happen...


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

Also born, raised and reside in Woodstock, my son was good friends with Daryn and he and Tori would spend the night at my son and his mothers on MANY occasion.

How does a father tell a 10 year old that the girl he played with was raped and murdered?


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

Elric said:


> Also born, raised and reside in Woodstock, my son was good friends with Daryn and he and Tori would spend the night at my son and his mothers on MANY occasion.
> 
> How does a father tell a 10 year old that the girl he played with was raped and murdered?



I honestly don't know. 

B


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

EvanPitts said:


> I don't know what all the shock is - there are so many drugs and drug abusers in Woodstock that this kind of thing was bound to happen...


Truthfully, many of us didn't want to think that something this horrific could happen here - I know that I didn't.

Woodstock's drug problem isn't always that evident, especially if you don't travel in those circles. I don't live under a rock by any means and I don't see it. I know that there are drugs (like in any other city), it's just not always in your face.

I have friends who are firefighters and police officers and they agree with you. Drug use and availability here in Woodstock is a definitely a problem.

As it turns out, legitimate businesses are not the only ones that find Woodstock's proximity to the 401 and 403 advantageous to their bottom line, the criminal element likes it as well.

B


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*wait a minute*



EvanPitts said:


> I don't know what all the shock is - there are so many drugs and drug abusers in Woodstock that this kind of thing was bound to happen...


EP, normally, i have supported almost all you have said. in this instance however, you are distilling a sick, sexual molester down to a simple explanation using 'drugs'. I have always assumed that you were educated. if so, then you will know that there is no connection between deviant sexual behavior and drug use. i honestly can't believe that you, of all people, made a comment such as that. There are problems connected with drug use, no doubt. They are seen on the streets of Toronto and Regina every day - gang shootings, robberies, etc. etc. Rapes and murders of 8 year old children are not listed in that roster. Please. i realize many of you feel a superior intellect when posting - demonstrate that. Associate the correct problem with the crime. So Dahmer, Bernardo, Fritzl, Picton, Boudreau, et al all did what they did BECAUSE they were drug-crazed turned sex offender? Please leave your holier than thou, research refutable drivel in another thread labeled, 'And God Speaks'. 

My sincerest sympathies to the Woodstock community. I can't imagine how difficult this must be for all of you. Many of us in the rest of the world didn't know the Staffords in any manner but are both outraged and saddened by this case. I hope that after time, you learn to trust one another again. Please know that at least in some communities, we stand behind your pain.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*problems*



Bilbo said:


> Truthfully, many of us didn't want to think that something this horrific could happen here - I know that I didn't.
> 
> Woodstock's drug problem isn't always that evident, especially if you don't travel in those circles. I don't live under a rock by any means and I don't see it. I know that there are drugs (like in any other city), it's just not always in your face.
> 
> ...


Bilbo, I'm not sure if you're trying to be non-confrontational, accommodating, or intimidated by the number of posts EP has made. You live in Woodstock. If you use drugs then I am to assume you may rape, murder, and molest an 8-year old child?

If your community has a drug problem, then I am sympathetic and hope you shall continue working, with your police and your firefighters to eradicate the issue. Drug problems do create fires, shootings, etc. That is however, a completely separate issue from what has happened to Tori Stafford. I know nothing about nor do i know anyone from Woodstock but I certainly stand in defense of their reputations as drug users, growers, and sellers only. I would rather a city of them than one Bernado type.

CC


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> Justice in Canada - where filth like Bernardo and Olsen get to loaf around in luxury, with special privleges, and all free Internet they can handle.
> 
> I think we need a dose of some real justice, and not this effete secret hangings, but the real thing, so everyone can see. That's why Stintson gave the land in Hamilton for Prince's Square in the first place, so the filth could see what would happen any time they went to and from the hay market.
> 
> I don't know what all the shock is - there are so many drugs and drug abusers in Woodstock that this kind of thing was bound to happen...


ARE you trying to equate drug abusers with child molesters? Really EP, you must be a jaded person. Don't you have any empathy for the child victims? Do you feel any empathy at all since you are too jaded?


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

I'm too upset about this to get into an argument with anyone. So far, nothing has been confirmed (as far as I know) that Tori was raped. It is likely a safe assumption however that she was, and that leaves me with a terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach.

I also try to respect the opinions of others, even if I don't agree with them. I'm the first to admit that I am no expert. Was the role of drugs a factor? Maybe - I'm not the one to answer that question. Is the availability of sick content on the internet a contributing factor? Could be. Again, I'm not the one to answer that.

Your brain can't be wired quite right to do something so horrific. It's been reported that Terri-Lynn actually took part in the original search and handed out flyers. That is just sick.

This is all very, very sad.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

Bilbo said:


> I'm too upset about this to get into an argument with anyone.
> 
> I also try to respect the opinions of others, even if I don't agree with them. I'm the first to admit that I am no expert. Was the role of drugs a factor? Maybe - I'm not the one to answer that question. Is the availability of sick content on the internet a contributing factor? Could be. Again, I'm not the one to answer that.
> 
> This is all very, very sad.


To you and all the residents of Woodstock, we offer you our deepest sympathies.

CC is not trying to undermine you in any shape or form. She is simply stating that EP and other posters shouldn't simplify this situation by blaming it on drugs or any other abuses.


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

Thanks... and I know. What I was saying was that I was to upset to argue with EP.

B


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Bilbo said:


> Truthfully, many of us didn't want to think that something this horrific could happen here - I know that I didn't.


No one wants to think that this stuff can happen in their own neighbourhood or city, but it does. Unlike Hamilton, where these things are not only apparent, but are long established - a small place like Woodstock allows for years of denial that leads to such tragedies. It's like running face on into a wall of reality, something that people that live in Hamilton or Toronto are more accustomed to.



> Woodstock's drug problem isn't always that evident, especially if you don't travel in those circles. I don't live under a rock by any means and I don't see it. I know that there are drugs (like in any other city), it's just not always in your face.
> 
> I have friends who are firefighters and police officers and they agree with you. Drug use and availability here in Woodstock is a definitely a problem.


I used to work in Woodstock. When I was first scouted by the company I was working for, I went up and checked it out. It looked like a nice, small city, clean and safe and such. I was also swayed by my uncle, who used to work there as well, along with a grand-uncle who was long in business in Woodstock.

But working there showed a different scene. It was so difficult being a foreman, because it was a rare night that a whole crew would show up, and half the crew would be stoned. There just seemed to be too many people on dope, and some of them would smoke up while on shift. The administration would do nothing except in the most excessive cases, and most replacements would also be on drugs.

Now, there are drug problems in these parts, severe drug problems, but we never had a problem finding workers that could pass drug tests. After my two years in Woodstock, I ended up working at another company which was zero tolerance, and these things never really came to the fore, even when I worked at one site which was right down with the whole drug scene in Hamilton.

Places like Woodstock just don't show the cards, so nothing is really done about these things when they can be nipped in the bud. The neighbourhood I live in is known for being quiet, and for a number of police officers that live on the street - but that has not stopped crime. The street has had a grow op, a "drive-thru" drug dealer, two murders, an internet kiddie porn site, and a few years ago, even a race riot in the park at the top of the street. Not to mention the number of stolen cars that are dumped on our street in any given month.

I think this will be an eye opener for Woodstock, now that they know they need to attend to these problems that have been latent for more than ten years, maybe more. Just like no one in St. Catharines would have thought 20 years ago that a butcher would soon live in their town.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*searching for*



sharonmac09 said:


> To you and all the residents of Woodstock, we offer you our deepest sympathies.
> 
> CC is not trying to undermine you in any shape or form. She is simply stating that EP and other posters shouldn't simplify this situation by blaming it on drugs or any other abuses.





Bilbo said:


> Thanks... and I know. What I was saying was that I was to upset to argue with EP.
> 
> B


We too, share in your pain B. Thanks to sharonmac for providing a clearer, less emotive voice for me. I have been upset since Tori's disappearance, which is why i posted all links available at the time, here. Everyone that is normal, even 'drug users', likely still hold onto that small human behavior called, 'hope'. This is why we are all so devastated that our light of hope has been extinguished. I know and have worked with many drug abusers and yes, some of their methods and tactics for supporting their addictions are shocking. But i am quite certain that they would be more than offended if associated with a crime of this nature. As for internet porn sites, again, there are studies that link sexual crimes to these forms of entertainment. But to label all porn surfers as deviants is another error. like you B, i am no expert. But i am human and a parent. I had hope and am very, very angry that it was taken away. Again, i am sure that i speak on behalf of ehMac members in extending our deepest sympathies and support for you and your community through this very difficult time. Should you be able to, please extend this warmth to the Stafford family as well.
CC


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

EP...

Yes, we have a drug problem here.

No, we don't sit on our hands with our heads in the sand.

While not everyone in the community realizes that the problem is as bad as it is, the police, firefighters, EMTs and medical community most certainly know. It's a difficult problem that requires the right strategy and the available resources (that we don't have).

It has yet to be proven, that drugs played ANY role in this tragedy, you are merely making that assumption and what gives you the right to make that assumption anyway?

Does Woodstock have a drug problem? Yes. Is our problem worse than most especially based on our small size? It looks that way.

If I sound defensive, it's because I am! We realize that it's not the 50s. We realize that we don't live in Mayberry. Like a lot of cities, we have a drug problem.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

ciaochiao said:


> They are seen on the streets of Toronto and Regina every day - gang shootings, robberies, etc. etc. Rapes and murders of 8 year old children are not listed in that roster.


Actually, sex crimes can go hand in hand with drug use. In this case, the accuses were both known drug abusers, and even Tori's mother came forth as an admitted drug abuser. I think drug abuse is a very big factor. And it was not just some dude going out and picking up a girl, he had a woman that was an accomplice, who willfully went to the school and delivered the victim to the scumball. Even more sad is the fact that these people, after the fact, went out and helped posting the missing signs - probably figuring it would throw the cops entirely off the path. It would have worked except for the accusing video tapes, as well as hundreds of tips, many of which were from the drug culture.



> So Dahmer, Bernardo, Fritzl, Picton, Boudreau, et al all did what they did BECAUSE they were drug-crazed turned sex offender?


In most, if not all of the cases, drug abuse is a very big factor. Bernardo was not only a drug abuser, but was a known figure to police because of the cigarette and drug smuggling he was involved in. With perhaps the exception of Henry Lee Gacy, who is just pure psycho, almost all of the big time "names" were on drugs, as drug abuse leads to the cessation of those elements in the mind that impose some form of self control. Violence and such impulses come from the lowest segments of the brain, and only when upper brain control is destroyed, can these impulses come to fruition, either through some kind of psychosis or through substance abuse.

As for blame - there is no need to "blame drugs" - it is simply that these people, if guilty, should be hanged, and that the reason that they took this step was because they relinquished their own self control to the abuse of drugs, and were part and parcel of a drug culture. The tragedy is that Woodstock is a town in self-denial, thinking they don't have the problems that big cities have with such things - but at least in the big cities, these things are knowwn and abusers can seek help, something that is absent from a place like Woodstock.]


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

EvanPitts, a lot of facts will come out in due-time, but I think myself and a lot of others would agree that your rants and arguments right now with the company that are in this thread are very ill-timed. 

----

My heart goes out to all affected by this horrific senseless tragedy.  My daughters had all heard about this story in school as its 20 minutes away, and were all following the developments. Was really awful this morning at the breakfast table having to tell them the outcome. 

No matter what the outcome, I don't think its possible to have justice. There is no punishment or sentence to bring justice.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Nonsense*

for the 1st time in ehMac, I cannot believe the lack of sensitivity, the arrogance, stupidity, and obvious lack of education displayed. The un-elegant and illogical set of statements made in a previous, elongated post demonstrate the mind ramblings of an individual who would only appear to understand the headlines from any given article. Having said that, I shall return to the matter at hand. 

On behalf of ehMac, to the members within and outside of the Woodstock community who are still reeling in pain and shock from the loss of an innocent life, we grieve beside you. Not all ehMac posters are windbag idiots who feel they must justify their existence by droning on about unrelated matters while intentionally trying to create contention. Some of us are actually quite intelligent and sensitive. 

Does anyone know what the so-called 'twist' in the case is? Quite honestly, I don't support the media terminology regarding 'closure' and 'returning Tori to her family'. There will never be closure. At this juncture, I believe that a full scale inquiry must be conducted into the manner of handling by the authorities when they were alerted that Tori was 'missing'. At the beginning, when I initiated this thread, I did not want to turn it into a thread for bashing. I still don't. This is where a more knowledgeable voice - as in someone involved in legal investigations, may lend some understanding? I for one, do not understand why a greater push wasn't employed at 6:15 p.m., about 15 minutes after Tori was reported missing. Could that have prevented the murder? This won't be known until the body is found and a scientific autopsy performed. But it is still a glaring and gaping hole in the minds of the concerned. Bilbo, coming from that community, can you shed any light on what happened?
CC


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Thank you*



ehMax said:


> EvanPitts, a lot of facts will come out in due-time, but I think myself and a lot of others would agree that your rants and arguments right now with the company that are in this thread are very ill-timed.
> 
> ----
> 
> ...


THANK YOU MR. MAYOR. :clap::clap::clap:

I hope that you and your children stay safe and aware. I don't know the ages of your kids but I hope they're old enough to avoid almost everyone. It's so sad that our children have to be raised in paranoia. As for justice, you're quite right. We, who are all affected by this, are angry and obviously want the fastest fix. But there is no fix in this type of situation. There simply isn't.
CC


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

I wasn't aware that there was "a twist". 

I just found out that there will be a live streaming announcement on the website of the London Free Press at 2 p.m..

I appreciate as I'm sure does the entire Woodstock community everyone's thoughts.

Mr. Mayor, I imagine that was a very uncomfortable breakfast indeed.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Time to look*



Bilbo said:


> I wasn't aware that there was "a twist".
> 
> I just found out that there will be a live streaming announcement on the website of the London Free Press at 2 p.m..
> 
> ...


I'll go take a look at the conference, thanks B.

Actually, what I meant was can you shed any light on how and why the case was treated so lightly at the beginning? 
CC


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

ciaochiao said:


> THANK YOU MR. MAYOR. :clap::clap::clap:
> 
> I hope that you and your children stay safe and aware. I don't know the ages of your kids but I hope they're old enough to avoid almost everyone. It's so sad that our children have to be raised in paranoia. As for justice, you're quite right. We, who are all affected by this, are angry and obviously want the fastest fix. But there is no fix in this type of situation. There simply isn't.
> CC


I actually don't want to teach my kids to avoid everyone and to be paranoid. As scary and as awful as this tragedy and others similar like it, I don't believe its a reason to raise our children in fear. 

To fear living is also a great and horrible tragedy. 

Certainly kids need to have street smarts, but you don't want kids to think there is a boogey man around every corner.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

ciaochiao said:


> for the 1st time in ehMac, I cannot believe the lack of sensitivity, the arrogance, stupidity, and obvious lack of education displayed. The un-elegant and illogical set of statements made in a previous, elongated post demonstrate the mind ramblings of an individual who would only appear to understand the headlines from any given article. Having said that, I shall return to the matter at hand.
> 
> On behalf of ehMac, to the members within and outside of the Woodstock community who are still reeling in pain and shock from the loss of an innocent life, we grieve beside you. Not all ehMac posters are windbag idiots who feel they must justify their existence by droning on about unrelated matters while intentionally trying to create contention. Some of us are actually quite intelligent and sensitive.
> 
> ...


As emotional as this issue is, I'd ask that we *All* show respect to each other.


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

EP...

I think that you mean John Wayne Gacy not Henry Lee Gacy, and yes that man was total evil.

Woodstock DOES have programs in place to help addicts including a methadone clinic. We are NOT in denial about our drug problems. We have limited resources.

I would agree however that this is a wake-up call but not just for the residents of Woodstock, but everyone that this can happen anywhere anytime.

B


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*And it was*



ehMax said:


> As emotional as this issue is, I'd ask that we *All* show respect to each other.


And it was, with all respects Mr. Mayor. Several posts addressed the fact that the individual was straying from topic and worse, demonstrating a severe lack of sensitivity to the nature of this issue. The poster continued and I will not, apologize for my last comment. This thread is not a political or economics thread. It should not be used to deliberately antagonize individuals who are already flagrantly upset by the case. Creating contention can be thought provoking and educational. In this case, it was not, as you also indicated. I think that most posters here have been emotional but sensitive to the pain of others. I shall continue to extend my thoughts, respect, and sympathies to all those affected and now, will listen to the live feed for factual information as detailed by Bilbo.
CC


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

> Kate Hammer, Woodstock, Ont.
> — From Thursday's Globe and Mail, Thursday, May. 21, 2009 05:51AM EDT
> 
> Two weeks before young Tori Stafford went missing, Dave Riddell was fed up.
> ...


I'm not the only one to see a connection between the accused and drugs - but time will reveal the truth.


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

ciaochiao...

I don't know that the case was treated lightly in the beginning. The female constable who did the briefings is a friend of mine. She is correct that all of the circumstances did not qualify an Amber Alert. That said, I wish that they'd have done it anyway. Err on the side of caution and deal with the fall-out later if need be. Time is of the essence in situations like this.

If I recall, the police were not even made aware of the situation until the early evening.

Perhaps we can lobby to have the Amber Alert requirements loosened somewhat. 

The 2 p.m. briefing did not reveal much of anything.

B


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Seems to me people like throwing around the idea of drugs as if it somehow magically explains everything. Sorry, it's really just not that simple.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

Bilbo said:


> ciaochiao...
> 
> I don't know that the case was treated lightly in the beginning. The female constable who did the briefings is a friend of mine. She is correct that all of the circumstances did not qualify an Amber Alert. That said, I wish that they'd have done it anyway. Err on the side of caution and deal with the fall-out later if need be. Time is of the essence in situations like this.
> 
> ...


Hi B:
Well, I'd have to agree with you about the briefing. All it did was upset me more and put my eyes back into a tirade of tears. My 22 year old just spent the hour talking me 'down' and debating the matter of capital punishment with me. He's young, not jaded, compassionate, and well, obviously not in favor of the death penalty. I am not young, I'm jaded, I'm not compassionate and well, obviously in favor of the death penalty as long as the conviction is beyond doubt. 

I've got to admit, I'm still pretty upset with the authorities on this matter but I must also admit that I feel for your friend, the female constable. She took a lot of heat during the 1st few weeks. As usual, they put out an innocent person for the 'mob' to hang. I hope she's doing ok under all this stress as well. 

Your suggestion to lobby for a review of the Amber Alert is excellent. This is one of the things I hoped that the brilliant minds in ehMac could detail. I don't mean that last statement with any sarcasm. If you read some of the posts by many of the members here, you will see that they are really, really intelligent in both a learned (formal) and mature manner. There are always exceptions to this but in general, I had even hoped that an ehMac poster would see something that everyone else missed. What do you think the John Walsh exposure did for this? I was stunned but very glad that he took it upon himself to try and help. On the other hand, I'm not in Woodstock nor a member of the legal community so I don't know what it did.

Any suggestions as to how we can organize a review and change of the Amber Alert? We could just call it something else and legislate it. Perhaps we could name it in honor of Tori - I'm just grasping here and wanting a change. Again, please extend our sympathies to your friend, the constable, as well. She was not in charge of the investigation. She was just put out there by her superiors and I am not too impressed by their actions.
CC


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

The problem is that so much criticism gets thrown at the parents, the police, the school and we don't even have all of the facts yet. 

There is no doubt that my friend had to do a very difficult job, it's never fun being the one in the hot seat. The police said that they did the best job that they could and I believe that. Could a few things have been handled differently? Perhaps, and I'm sure that they will look at that too. I know that it was particularly difficult as she has two young children of her own who rarely got to see her over the last several weeks as she worked this case.

Tori's mom was getting it from all angles. She is as tough as nails, and sadly that may have worked against her in some respects as far as public perception goes.

It is often true that sexual deviants are also substance abusers, but I don't agree that you can blame the drugs for this.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

*confusing cause and effect*

I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but I can't help trying to help with the confusion regarding drug abuse and sexual offenses. Neither of these mental diseases causes the other, they are both effects of mental disorders. So, if it turns out to be the case that the pathetic creature who committed heinous crime is also a drug abuser, parsimony would suggest that the drug abuse and the violent crime are both caused by the same mental disease.

Anyway, the bottom line is that people who *AB*use drugs are mentally ill, it's that people who are mentally ill often abuse drugs (and do all kinds of other destructive things).

[ edit: changed use -> *AB*use ... sorry for any confusion]


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

The value of an Amber Alert is that it is uncommon and gets a reaction _because_ it is so uncommon.

If every time a child is late home from school an Amber alert were to be issued, and then in 99% of the cases get stood down because the child simply went to a schoolmate's house and forgot to phone home, the value of an Amber Alert in cases of KNOWN abduction would be lost. People, quite simply, become conditioned to not react. It's the lesson learnt from the little boy who cried wolf.

Unfortunately there was no 'known' abduction in this case. Unfortunately the system failed. Does that mean the system can be improved? Certainly.

But we have to be careful not to over-react, because losing the value of the system through over-use is just as bad.

Hindsight is always 20-20. Learn from this, yes. Over-react, no.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> Anyway, the bottom line is that people who use drugs are mentally ill..


No, it's not the bottom line. There is often co-morbidity, but no definitive relationship.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Exactly*



bryanc said:


> I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but I can't help trying to help with the confusion regarding drug abuse and sexual offenses. Neither of these mental diseases causes the other, they are both effects of mental disorders. So, if it turns out to be the case that the pathetic creature who committed heinous crime is also a drug abuser, parsimony would suggest that the drug abuse and the violent crime are both caused by the same mental disease.
> 
> Anyway, the bottom line is that people who use drugs are mentally ill, it's that people who are mentally ill often abuse drugs (and do all kinds of other destructive things).


Bryanc, I am so glad you got involved. You summed up, intelligently, exactly what I should have said. It is too emotional of an issue for me at this moment so I am very, very happy that your objective voice has clarified. I hope it does exactly that, clarify. Thank you. Do stop by and bump your post again as I'm sure this will once again get derailed by talk of drug use. Simply put, there should not be any discussion of drug abuse here. There should be discussion ongoing as to how we could learn to modify the alert, legislate something differently, and very importantly, supporting the community of Woodstock plus everyone else affected by this monstrous event. Again, thank you for finally bringing in a FACTUAL, scientifically substantiated group of statements.
CC


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

MLeh...

Well said and I agree. 

I don't think that Amber Alerts should be issued willy nilly, but if a young child has been missing for say, two hours and all friends, the school etc have been checked, then maybe one should be considered and quick. Especially if this is out of their regular pattern of behaviour. The problem is that by the time they fulfill all of the requirements in some cases, it'd be too late. 

In this case Tori was being led away by a person unknown to her parents and without their consent. By most definitions, wouldn't that immediately be considered an abduction and thus qualify for an Amber Alert? I'm just asking...

Mind you, I don't think that they had the definitive video proof until a day or two later. Even after that, didn't it take ten days or so before it was officially an abduction. That's far too long in my opinion.

If nothing else, when tragedies like this happen, it is a good time to review all procedures and street-proofing methods. Any ideas and dialogue that might lead to improvements is a good thing moving forward.

B


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

MannyP Design said:


> Seems to me people like throwing around the idea of drugs as if it somehow magically explains everything. Sorry, it's really just not that simple.


Manny you are so right. Why didn't you jump in earlier?



bryanc said:


> I don't really want to get involved in this thread, but I can't help trying to help with the confusion regarding drug abuse and sexual offenses. Neither of these mental diseases causes the other, they are both effects of mental disorders. So, if it turns out to be the case that the pathetic creature who committed heinous crime is also a drug abuser, parsimony would suggest that the drug abuse and the violent crime are both caused by the same mental disease.
> 
> Anyway, the bottom line is that people who use drugs are mentally ill, it's that people who are mentally ill often abuse drugs (and do all kinds of other destructive things).


Bryanc, OMG we waited for someone like you intervene and offer a rebuttal to an earlier post that blames drugs for deviant behaviour. Thank you so much.




Bilbo said:


> MLeh...
> 
> Well said and I agree.
> 
> ...


Bilbo, I hear you. Quite often, a tragedy has to occur before the procedures are reviewed. It is so unfortunate. There are people out there that turn a blind eye and a deaf ear and pretend to not notice and hear. They do not want to get involved. If there are more vigilant and caring people, perhaps most of the tragedies will not materialize. I really do not have an answer in how to turn around the sorry state of this effed up world. Perhaps some angel will have a brilliant idea.

Sharon


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Drugs make people irrational. That is accepted and coded into law within the confines of the definition of "person" under the juridical standard.

In terms of explaining the mental pathways that led to this unfortunate event, I suspect that drugs had some influence in terms of irrationality. However, I am sure that there is previous and alternative causal roots apart from drugs.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Adrian. said:


> Drugs make people irrational. That is accepted and coded into law within the confines of the definition of "person" under the juridical standard.
> 
> In terms of explaining the mental pathways that led to this unfortunate event, I suspect that drugs had some influence in terms of irrationality. However, I am sure that there is previous and alternative causal roots apart from drugs.


You mean SOME drugs CAN make people irrational.

Just like SOME "drugs" CAN also make people calm and complacent. Or hungry. Oxycontin is a drug. As is beer. Both can be highly addictive and yield differing results--depending on the user's personality and/or genetic makeup.

Simply applying the umbrella of "drugs" as a cause for irrational behavior is itself irrational. It simply highlights the ignorance (or maybe naiveté is a better word) some have with respects to "the drugs".

"Drugs" can also amplify pre-existing behavior or remove inhibitions. Like Beer.

Ask a cop how many violent cannabis users they've arrested (those who have not consumed other narcotics) and there's a really good chance they'll draw a blank. Ask them how many violent people they've encountered under the influence of alcohol... well... how much time do you have?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

My suspicion is this sorry excuse of a human being was probably going to kill regardless--drugs or no.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Well said*

MannyP: :clap::clap::clap:

well said. I also don't know how many cannabis users smoke a joint then plough into a busload of kids.

I think you're right. Predisposition is a huge premise in science - especially genetics. 

You are too kind labeling this 'thing'-these 'things' as a human being. Are they?
CC


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

If the report on Global TV tonight proves to be true, then drugs were indeed a factor... albeit indirectly. I hope for Tori's mom's sake, the report is not true. 

If it is true, (again, I hope it's not) it's a very unfortunate reminder to be extremely careful who we allow into our lives.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Manny,

There are, of course, classifications and discriminations between drugs that have irrational effects and those that do not. 

I smoked my fair share of weed when I was younger, so I know that it was not weed that caused these people to do this with some fairly secure confidence. 

I am not ignorant to drugs. I know that there are grave differences between marijuana and meth or crack, for example. 

Nonetheless, I think rejecting the "drug" element from the equation does no more than narrow the explanatory landscape.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Adrian. said:


> Manny,
> 
> There are, of course, classifications and discriminations between drugs that have irrational effects and those that do not.
> 
> ...


I said nothing to the effect of rejecting drugs from the equation. I questioned the use of it as some sort of magic bullet that justifies or explains the actions of a killer.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> I said nothing to the effect of rejecting drugs from the equation. I questioned the use of it as some sort of magic bullet that justifies or explains the actions of a killer.


In woodstock, at my work, I have to deal with "Oxy casualties" daily. This is still a fairly unknown drug as to all of it's effects, but one thing is for certain, a guy on weed wouldn't throw a gamecube at me.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Having re-read my post I see that I mis-typed, and I hope no-one misinterpreted my position.

I don't see drug use as a sign of mental instability. I meant to type "people who *ab*use drugs are mentally ill."

For most drugs, including many that are illegal, a well-adjusted person can control their consumption and suffer little, if any, ill effects from their use in moderation. Someone who is unbalanced will become further unbalanced as they use mood-altering substances (including, in fact especially, alcohol), but the drug is not the underlying problem.

That's what I meant about confusing cause and effect.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Given the nature of Oxy and how it was derived, the side effects are not surprising to say the least. Those people you deal with: Are they acting out from a high, or withdrawl? As far as I'm concerned, Oxy is no better than Heroin.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> Given the nature of Oxy and how it was derived, the side effects are not surprising to say the least. Those people you deal with: Are they acting out from a high, or withdrawl? As far as I'm concerned, Oxy is no better than Heroin.


Both actually, the heavy sweating and talks a lot ones that are high, and the irate fragile minds that need a fix.

Oxy's are the Welfare Heroin.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

With all the prognostication going on here (entirely free of any real evidence, I might add) about the potential role of drugs here, I'd like to point out that a more likely issue is abuse (sexual and otherwise) during the perp's childhood - likely a more important factor in the genesis of this incident. Drug abuse simply amplifies tendencies bred into the perp (genetic predisposition to mental illness) or trained into the perp by those who raised (and abused) him.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

rgray said:


> With all the prognostication going on here (entirely free of any real evidence, I might add) about the potential role of drugs here, I'd like to point out that a more likely issue is abuse (sexual and otherwise) during the perp's childhood - likely a more important factor in the genesis of this incident. Drug use simply amplifies tendencies bred into the perp (genetic predisposition to mental illness) or trained into the perp by those who raised (and abused) him.


Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye.......all the unsubstantiated prognostication about the role of drugs shall now halt!!!!!! rgray speaks the truth here!:clap::clap:


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> unsubstantiated prognostication about


ANYTHING should cease... I think there is more to this story that will unfold...


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*finally!!*



MacDoc said:


> ANYTHING should cease... I think there is more to this story that will unfold...


Well, it's nice to know that there are actually a few, and when I was taking Stats at university, a few meant THREE, intelligent thinkers here. Sadly, I read the long winded rants here that have absolutely nothing to do with the initial thread. Almost none of you said a thing as to how we might assist when I started this thread after Tori's disappearance. Virtually none of you have offered any suggestions as to how we might lobby to improve the current problems connected to reporting missing children. Tragically, far too many of you are pontificating about the baddies who do drugs. Are you all so truly in need of listening to yourselves that you ignored the original issue-a missing child, and now, how to change the laws - the useless Amber Alert?

As for your constable friend Bilbo, i meant to say that she was on the front line in the media face and this is why I felt compassion for her. It is obvious that she is a nothing to the police and therefore, her superiors did not care if the public castigated her since they knew their careless and flippant manner had likely caused the death of an innocent child. In fact, it is likely the prejudiced stupidity of the authorities regarding the residents of Woodstock as druggies, which precluded their rational thought towards swifter action. They likely thought just as many of you are. 'Druggies, who cares?' But this was a child-NOT a criminal or 'druggie'-whatever you all mean by that. I have no doubt that the Oxford and possibly OPP may be sued. In no way was I saying that the police in Oxford did their jobs properly in any way. They could have issued the alert in a modified fashion. The point is, call it something else. Change the parameters governing the actual Alert. I don't know which is faster but certainly, do something useful.

I completely agree with MD. There is still much to reveal about this entire case. Between the keystone police-style gaffes and other useless red-herring matters - such as the fact that McClintic's mother was a stripper, which the media continues to announce, and that the landlord is probably a 'slumlord' - which is obvious from his housing, the illegality of a landlord kicking a tenant out without notice, to the individuals here, who continually use this thread as a platform to expound the evils of drug use - I am not surprised that we know nothing and that nothing can change. So rather than waste time debating red-herring issues, suffice it to say that those who are truly concerned shall wait for the story to unfold before offering or suggesting changes to a procedure that is obviously flawed. Perhaps then, the community can progress and prevent another tragic murder of a young, innocent girl. 

Has anyone anything useful to post? Funny how my initial question as to how we can lobby for change remains unanswered. I suppose it's too deep of a question.
CC


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

ciaochiao said:


> Well, it's nice to know that there are actually a few, and when I was taking Stats at university, a few meant THREE, intelligent thinkers here. Sadly, I read the long winded rants here that have absolutely nothing to do with the initial thread. Almost none of you said a thing as to how we might assist when I started this thread after Tori's disappearance. Virtually none of you have offered any suggestions as to how we might lobby to improve the current problems connected to reporting missing children. Tragically, far too many of you are pontificating about the baddies who do drugs. Are you all so truly in need of listening to yourselves that you ignored the original issue-a missing child, and now, how to change the laws - the useless Amber Alert?
> 
> As for your constable friend Bilbo, i meant to say that she was on the front line in the media face and this is why I felt compassion for her. It is obvious that she is a nothing to the police and therefore, her superiors did not care if the public castigated her since they knew their careless and flippant manner had likely caused the death of an innocent child. In fact, it is likely the prejudiced stupidity of the authorities regarding the residents of Woodstock as druggies, which precluded their rational thought towards swifter action. They likely thought just as many of you are. 'Druggies, who cares?' But this was a child-NOT a criminal or 'druggie'-whatever you all mean by that. I have no doubt that the Oxford and possibly OPP may be sued. In no way was I saying that the police in Oxford did their jobs properly in any way. They could have issued the alert in a modified fashion. The point is, call it something else. Change the parameters governing the actual Alert. I don't know which is faster but certainly, do something useful.
> 
> ...


I never read your whole rant, but there is really nothing more that can be done to "improve" the Amber alert process. Like I have said over a gajillion times now, we can't call Amber Alerts when kids go to their friends house after school or take the long way home, etc. So much time would be wasted on searching for non-missing children that the ones that actually DO go missing may be treated with a "cry wolf" effect and not investigated fully. The Police here have done a magnificent job.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*a name*

So then why call it an Amber Alert? when a child, who normally arrives home by 4 p.m., is not around at 6 pm, i would think something is up unless the child is prone to deliberately going to a friend's home without calling. moreover, my 'rant' starts at the beginning of this thread requesting that ehMac members put their brain cells together and help with the search. 

Second: even if we as a society are too stupid to move forward in modifying or creating a new 'alert' criterion, then i would still rather err on the side of caution. The city of Woodstock is not big. It would have taken but a few moments to get a cautionary procedure initiated. And yes, you're right. As long as there are people who say, a 'gazillion times' that there's nothing we can do, you're right. There's nothing we can do because unfortunately, Canada's population only has a fraction of a 'gazillion people', even with all the drug addicts.
CC


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

Elric said:


> I never read your whole rant, but there is really nothing more that can be done to "improve" the Amber alert process. Like I have said over a gajillion times now, we can't call Amber Alerts when kids go to their friends house after school or take the long way home, etc. So much time would be wasted on searching for non-missing children that the ones that actually DO go missing may be treated with a "cry wolf" effect and not investigated fully. The Police here have done a magnificent job.


Are you belittling CC's post as a rant? Shame on you, Elric. CC is an articulate educated passionate person. She and others believe that the Amber Alert needs to be tweaked so that no one else falls through the cracks.


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

Hi,

My Constable friend, was intentionally kept in the dark as to the progress of the investigation so as to remove the possibility of her slipping up and letting out information that she wasn't supposed to and hamper the investigation. Yes, it was a tough job, but someone had to do it. I am proud of the job that she did - it was NOT easy.

This story is still unfolding. More information will surface over the coming weeks. I think that everyone should wait before bringing any suggestions of lawsuits, calling the police Keystone Cops and such. If the police made errors it will surely come to light. I think that it is premature to be criticizing anyone at this point. Wait until everything is revealed, there may be perfectly good reasons for why things were done the way that they were. Often distasteful things need to be done to rule people in or out as suspects.

Statistically, the person responsible is very often a family member or known to the family. That doesn't make things easy for the family by any means, but that's just the way it is. Sadly, that can get very rough.

It appears that Tara was a suspect, but as I understand it, she was NEVER the only suspect. There was upwards of 100 officers working 24/7 running down all leads and tips. Clearly, Tara's behaviour was often "odd" at best. That in itself, by no means makes her guilty of anything, but it was very odd.

Our thoughts are with Tara, Rodney and Darren. This is awful.

B


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*oh sorry,*

Thanks SM09, but it's clear that elric is actually belittling the citizens of Canada but worse, flippant as to the welfare of young children. Not every child 'takes the long way home'. And anyway SM09, why bother wasting any more of Elric's energy, after all, he's already told us a 'gajillion' times, so don't make him say it again....my error, I thought it was a 'gazillion' but obviously, i need to re-take my math terminology.
CC


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Years ago my parents invited my friend (we were 12 years old at the time) to go to the park for a picnic with us--with his mother's permission of course. He picked up the phone to call her but couldn't get through, so he lied to them and said it was okay. By the time we got home (three odd hours later) there were police waiting in our driveway... the mother (rightly so) panicked because her son hadn't come home in time for supper.

And this was in a relatively small community with very little crime let alone child abductions.

Is there a solution? Honestly? I really can't think of one that would matter in a situation like the one I mentioned above, or Tori Stafford's case. Short of placing video cameras throughout the streets, there isn't much we can do, aside from hiring a body guard or shadowing your children.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

ciaochiao said:


> Thanks SM09, but it's clear that elric is actually belittling the citizens of Canada but worse, flippant as to the welfare of young children. Not every child 'takes the long way home'. And anyway SM09, why bother wasting any more of Elric's energy, after all, he's already told us a 'gajillion' times, so don't make him say it again....my error, I thought it was a 'gazillion' but obviously, i need to re-take my math terminology.
> CC


Wow, I'm soooooo sorry that my opinion is different than your, and your slang and sense of exaggeration are sub-par.
I wasn't "belittling" anyone, just pointing out the fact that when you overwhelm a system (any system) with false alarms, the effort put into the real alarms will be.... again, sub-par. 

You don't have to lash out when someone disagrees with you, it just makes you look like an ass.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*name calling*

Elric;
You are offending and disrespectful with your name calling. The mayor has requested that we maintain a level of respect towards one another. Please see his posts.
CC


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Bumped reminder*



ehmax said:


> as emotional as this issue is, i'd ask that we *all* show respect to each other.


the mayor's request, using my own post, as an example.
Cc


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## Bilbo (Jul 12, 2001)

Discussing ideas and sharing opinions about possible ways that Amber Alerts might be improved is fine... A good thing fact. 

Keep in mind that not everyone may agree, we all may have different opinions. The thing is the dialogue and opinions might lay the groundwork for some improvements. (if in fact they are needed)

We don't have to all agree, but we can be respectful of other ideas.

When tragedies like this happen, it's never a bad idea to do a postmortem on procedures to prevent future problems.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*link*

Here is the latest 'news' regarding the case. I have found that the stations/articles are all stating the same things at this point. From a scientist's perspective, I can somewhat understand that the landscape was visually different 6 weeks ago. But keep in mind that when the body is found, there will be forensic evidence that may put McClintic and Rafferty in a undeniable position of criminal activity. I feel very, very deeply for Tara McDonald. She is not over emotive and apparently, that is a crime. I hope the community is pleased now that she's come out and shed some tears. i hope that they leave her alone so that this case can be solved. If anyone else has news, NEWS to post, please do. 

Mom doubts suspect can help find Tori's body

There are online petitions and since Harper weighed in today, it may be a good time to start one. The time line and criterion for reporting a missing child need to be changed, not reviewed, but changed. Perhaps a communication company such as Rogers, Bell, and Telus can donate a cell phone per student per school year to be used only as a means of notifying parents when the child is heading home. The phone can be turned in at the end of the year just as are textbooks. Not everyone can afford 5 cell phones for their family. This would be a feasible alternative.
CC


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
None of those measures would ever work. Unfortunate as this tragedy is, the Amber Alert wouldn't have ever worked since Tori was abducted by a person known to her. It was probably a "your mommy asked if I could pick you up after school, she is busy with something" situation. Handing out cell phones wouldn't have helped on iota, as again, this person was a known person, and hence, there would be no reason to phone anyone. I bet the entire cell phone network would collapse at 3:20 when every kid in the school phones home every day. 

The real question would be to ask why the school allowed someone to take a child out of the school before the actual end of school - though of course, the whole scenario is that the abductors were not strangers at all - but known people. Even if an Amber Alert was issued - it would depend on the timeline. As there was no request for ransom, the abduction was not staged to score some fast cash.

There were many people who supplied input to the police - and really, this case has been settled quite quickly. Many of these cases go on for years, decades, and sometimes are just never solved. Look at the case of the mystery victim that was found north of Toronto forty years ago - they only identified him recently, like last year. People are too atuned to the CSI way of solving a case in an hour - these things take time, and just may not ever be solved. In this case, it is obvious that the girlfriend got cold feet at the last minute, and most likely, because the dude became abusive in some way, and hence, reporting him in exchange for a sweetheart deal is the ultimate revanche.

As for a solution to these situations - I don't think we can have an ultimate solution, not without imposing an onerous weight upon rights, freedoms and liberties. Sure, we could have a system where children have to be delivered to and picked up from school by parents, or those with certified court issued documents - but then everyone would complain about that system as well. It wouldn't "fix" the problem of parental abduction either - which really is at the core of what the Amber Alert is about in the first place.

The only practical "fix" is to make sure that those that perpetrate crimes are duly punished by the justice system so these scumbags are never able to perpetrate another crime.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

^^^ And perhaps using this example, recognize that we as parents need to teach our kids why it is so important that we be kept directly informed of what is happening and where they are going and that if a normal routine changes that hasn't been previously discussed between parent and child that the child knows that he/he needs to stop and contact a parent or another trusted adult.....of course this doesn't protect children from the abuse of their own parents. 

Children need to be able to identify "safe" adults...so I have informed my child that if she needs to check in with someone and cannot get a hold of me or my spouse, she is to contact one of her two closest aunts, etc. All of the phone numbers she needs she has memorized. 

It's not a perfect solution - but just another backstopping measure to the current plan.

Is the Block Parent program still in effect? 

I remember when houses would have these little emblems by or on their front doors that kids could use to recognize a "safe" house, if they ran into trouble away from home. I believe the residents were subjected to basic police screenings and given a simple protocol to follow when approached by a stranger-child for assistance. Anybody remember this program or participate or use it?


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

ciaochiao said:


> Elric;
> You are offending and disrespectful with your name calling. The mayor has requested that we maintain a level of respect towards one another. Please see his posts.
> CC


I offered my opinion, and then defended myself, no harm, no foul.



KC4 said:


> Is the Block Parent program still in effect?
> 
> I remember when houses would have these little emblems by or on their front doors that kids could use to recognize a "safe" house, if they ran into trouble away from home. I believe the residents were subjected to basic police screenings and given a simple protocol to follow when approached by a stranger-child for assistance. Anybody remember this program or participate or use it?


In Woodstock no.
I don't think a Block Parent would have "helped" Tori in the situation, because she knew the woman, but as the Ingersoll woman (whose name eludes me) put it, having the program in place may have dissuaded the abductors.

So it may not help, but it certainly couldn't hurt.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*yes and no*



EvanPitts said:


> ^^The only practical "fix" is to make sure that those that perpetrate crimes are duly punished by the justice system so these scumbags are never able to perpetrate another crime.


i'm not going to include your entire post but yes, you have some very valid criticisms. On the other hand, the cell phone system would assist in telling the parent- via text message, if the kid is heading home. This way, two hours wouldn't have to pass prior to reporting. This of course, would only be effective if there is another type of 'alert' after the child has been overdue by at least 30 minutes - again, this is not for all ages, as the older ones tend to gab a lot longer with their friends. my kids call when they're heading home. I time it. My parents used to time me when I was growing up in Regina. 

The case WAS solved quickly. i don't think that it's the length of time to solution that is bothering most - it's the fact that there had to be a tragedy at the end of the case. Forensic techniques are much, much better these days but CSI is a fantasy - if they were realities, we'd have very few unsolved deaths. The other misconception about search and rescue is the use of dogs. While dogs are extremely sensitive to scent, not to mention bright, the scent of a human loses strength after 48 hrs rendering the trail quite obscured. 

I will disagree that there are no fixes. The community as a whole can at least effect some type of change that may only prevent one or two further tragedies but that is better than no action at all. But I will agree with you that these tragedies will continue to perpetuate themselves since creatures like Rafferty and McClintic seem to continue their genetics in our population. i will also agree that they are slime and should not be supported in any way by tax dollars. Since Canada is unlikely to re-instate the death penalty, we need to use them for other matters. I have a few in mind. I'm a geneticist, I'm quite certain that you can guess what i'd use them for. I intensely dislike using innocent animals for research. And from what I have heard, there isn't really a 'prison justice' because these types are kept isolated and protected from the rest. We need to remain 'humanitarian' right??

CC


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

KC4 said:


> ^^^ .....of course this doesn't protect children from the abuse of their own parents.


THAT is very, very true.



KC4 said:


> Is the Block Parent program still in effect? Anybody remember this program or participate or use it?


it is still in effect to some degree. There were some issues however, with the security of such a program and thus, it has largely gone into oblivion. 

Another safeguard is the 'code word' technique. We have one and change it every year. On my cell, I have that info plus emergency contact info. I still think that texting the parents when leaving is a good method. Perhaps we can revive the Block parent program? In larger centres like Toronto, many members are immigrants and don't speak a lot of English. This and the fact that there are all types of rights that are perceived as 'infringed upon' if we were to tighten the security for Block Parents. It is an excellent point to bring up at everyone's next School Advisory council meeting (parent council, whatever you call it in your city).
CC


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*defined*

I was incorrect, i apologize. you're not rude, you're VULGAR. Here, please read Er.
ass - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I've stayed out of this discussion to see how it would play out.

Here's the bottom line folks, like it or lump it.

No one, and let me repeat that, NO ONE, can do anything to guarantee the safety of a child. The term "childproofing" in itself is a misnomer.

Be careful, be cautious and love them to death. But know that nothing you can do will prevent their deaths if some sick SOB targets a particular child.

That's the cold, hard truth. Get used to it.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Agreed, Sinc. I think people are well-meaning but too much tracking of children by their parents and other guardians is just that - too much. Seems to me kids are coddled and smothered enough as it is. They should be taught to be reasonably wary with strangers, certainly. But monitored day and night, endlessly tethered to cells or whatever else? I see a definite dark side to it. Unintended, of course, and driven by well-meaning intentions, but it's there nonetheless.

We're raising a nation of kids ready to flee at the sight of their own shadows.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*it will always be there*

you guys, sinc and max, are both right in the sense that these tragedies will continue throughout all the days man exists exactly due to SINC's definition of the Rafferty's et al. but at a certain age, kids need to have an extra/added measure of protection. Of course you can't guarantee the safety of any child. As KC4 points out, there are abuses by parents themselves. Nonetheless, i maintain that school provided cell phones are one method. Block parent type safety points are another. 

i must disagree that kids are afraid of their own shadows. it is a greater problem than simply being scared of monsters like rafferty/bernardo, etc. the greater issue that i can see at this very moment is the complete dissolution of community. there is no more 'love thy neighbor'. There is only, 'stay off my property and I won't get on yours either'. People don't care to know others anymore. Apathy is an endemic epidemic. I for one am going to raise this issue at the next SAC meeting. If it's not well received, that is not important. The point is to raise discussions and install other methods of education for our children and parents. 

i am not a fan of the 'eye in the sky' method. I don't even like Facebook because it tends to track activity. But this isn't an adult we're discussing, it's an 8 year old little child who simply put, has only been around for less than 5 years of understanding what danger means. For this alone, and until they can comprehend some safety issues, it is crucial that we use everything available to us so that at least, we've done all we can to prevent tragedy.

To be honest SINC, you haven't missed anything here except a lot of sadness, anger, shock, and some flagrant displays of magnanimous pontification. Enjoy your time away. You'll see enough of this case when you get back because it appears long from done.
CC


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

The dissolution of the community is indeed an issue. It arises at least partially from uncertain economic times, high labour mobility, relatively cheap energy costs (and therefore a huge liberation of civil movement relative to earlier times). Simply put, less people are staying put in one place. We move around a great deal more than we used to - transients in our own nations. We rove not only from city to city, but from country to country. Roots tend not to go as deep. For too many of us, out neighbours remain strangers for too long a period of time. It's consequently difficult to foster a sense of mutual trust, to engender a proud feeling of community, of shared responsibilities and shared joys.

Yeah, that's a big factor.

But many of our contemporary families are smaller, too. Much smaller than even 40, 50 years ago. Single-child families are common. Children, a relative rarity in our country in this era, therefore become more precious, more all-encompassing to those who bring them into the world. As ever, they bear the burden of their parent's hopes and expectations - but the burden is perhaps greater than ever before. And I suspect that parental concern for their understandably cherished kids can sometimes shade over into neurosis. Parental fear over their children's welfare can infect the children themselves. Protecting them can translate into unwittingly playing a confining, overbearing role.

Nope, I don't have children. Which makes me fair game for rebuttal. I'm down with that. Not looking to start any fights. I'm just calling it as I see it here.

Nor do I even expect an answer that would shield us all from the kinds of monstrous acts which started this thread. I'm with Sinc in this regard - you simply can't stop this stuff from happening. The individuals who do this sort of thing don't think like the rest of us do. They're in another place altogether. Our morals and conscientious thoughts don't penetrate their own consciousness.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Valid*

Max, you've raised some very valid points. Kids are almost 'over protected' to some degree and I am a parent. It's very difficult to figure out what and how to teach your children. Although my own sense of paranoia is extremely high, I have done my best to desist from practicing this phobia or any phobias on my kids. Otherwise, i feel that they won't ever have the opportunity to learn and grow nor the freedom to be open and welcoming. it is a very difficult issue to navigate. And yes, you and SINC are unfortunately, correct as is EP in stating that these heinous acts will persist. We do need to acknowlege this. To hide from this fact is simply doing an extreme act of injustice to future generations. But I still maintain there are things we can do in order to keep our kids safe just a little longer or better. One of them is to recognize that there are very, very demented humans roaming this earth. This recognition will and should lead us to do better research on the criminally insane mind. With all of the new neuro technology plus research methods, there simply has to be a way we can understand and prevent the criminal mind from flourishing. As a geneticist, I am astounded with how much is hard wired into our genes, simply shocked. As a parent and human being, i don't want creatures like this, kept alive at all. Since i can't very well change Canada's methods of meting out justice, then I need to use my resources plus that of others, and abate these individuals before they can begin. How? I have a few suggestions but they are quite radical. 

i understand what you are saying about shielding or sheltering our kids to the point of neuroses. I don't think that is ever going to change between parent and child. What can change however, is the criterion by which we consider a child, missing. What can change however, is the methodology used to educate our kids. The list can continue ad infinitum. We, as a society, need to reform the sense of community. Even if neighbors are from other places, we need to understand them as well so that they no longer are 'strangers from a strange land'. this includes people moving from rural Canada to places such as TO, Vancouver, etc. Community differs even at the area code level within a province. For my part, I am going to raise the issue at my kids' SAC meeting plus the Ward Council meetings which encompass dozens of schools in one meeting place. I have reviewed safety procedures with my own children and reinforced the protocol for pick up and/or drop off. 

And just because you don't have kids does not mean you do not have a valid voice. There are those who DO have children and should not be allowed any voice at all. 

'Out of interest, what type of punishment do you think creatures (I vehemently oppose calling them humans) like these should receive? I also am not debating you. i am asking. If I could hang them, I would. But i can't. So, what is a better solution? We need to also research the effects of capital punishment on these types of crimes as a deterrent. i have not read anything in years so I am not equipped to comment. If capital punishment is not a deterrent, then what method of punishment is? How do you reach a criminally insane mind?
CC


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ciaochiao said:


> I was incorrect, i apologize. you're not rude, you're VULGAR. Here, please read Er.
> ass - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary


Is this really necessary?


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

*creature?*

CiaoChiao-Creatures are generally animals without evil intentions. Perhaps you should use other terms to describe the despicable evil a$$holes such as vermin, butchers, beasts, fiends, parasites, etc.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Sharonmac09: yet creatures devour other creatures - it is we humans who like to impart "evil" motivations to some and not to others. Concepts of evil and good are our mental/emotional constructions - it's what we like to 'put' on other species and that tendency says more about us than the supposed other creatures we are categorizing.

As well, I should think your remarks are offensive to, among other things, @ssholes. You know, when all is said and done, that's just a very useful body part that simply does its job. Bit of a bum deal, that.

Aren't we getting a tad bogged down on mere nomenclature here?

Maybe we can agree on the vermin thing.

________________________________________

This case looks like it's going to take some time to play out in the media. There's more than a whiff of Bernardo about it but at this point that may be nothing more than a superficial comparison. Each murder has its own specific cruelties and injustices.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

One huge difference between the way children are viewed today and how they were viewed 50 years ago: parents are held fully accountable for what happens to their children--not for anything damaging that a child might do, but any unfortunate incident in which the child is involved. 

*Example 1959:*


> Neighbour 1: The kid down the street was playing with matches and burned himself badly.
> Neighbour 2: I know Charlie's parents, they always told him not to play with matches. They teach that in school. Dumb kid. I hope he gets better.


*Example 2009:*


> Neighbour 1: The kid down the street was playing with matches and burned himself badly.
> Neighbour 2: Why were there matches in the house at all? Who was looking out for Charlie between 4:10 and 4:15? I've seen that kid playing in the back yard all by himself. What kind of parents are they?


This seems less about a sense of parental responsibility and more about finding a need to fashion an explanation for what happened--a legalistic mindset that will set the parents' minds at ease by suggesting a reason why the incident could never happen to their own children.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

> Aren't we getting a tad bogged down on mere nomenclature here?


How about "defective human unit" which should be tossed in the recycle bin?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Yep.


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*what's in a name*

Well, to be honest with you, vermin are surviving/existing the manner they are to live. They, such as rats, mice, roaches, etc., aren't deliberately planning to eat your food. We have cultivated a society that thinks human and other animals can co-exist in the same environment and niche. 

Ok, defective human unit, DHU. I like SCUM, which has an infinite number of permutations. 

Could we all please look at this and if anyone lives in Ontario, look for these pieces of 'evidence'? The police are 'formally' requesting input from the public.

Victoria Stafford - Yahoo! Canada News Photos

Thanks to all.
CC


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Still searching*

Hi All:

Here's a portion of today's STAR article. They are still looking for the seat:

_Yesterday, OPP appealed to area residents to check their properties for the grey, cloth-coloured back seat that is missing from Rafferty's 2003 Honda four-door car, blue with black spray paint over portions of the vehicle. Police have the car, but are looking for the back seat in an effort to recover evidence.

If the seat is located, police investigators stress "that it not be touched," and are requesting that it be reported immediately. They're also asking anyone who finds it to try, without making physical contact with the seat, "to protect it from the elements until investigators can attend the scene."

Late last week police asked anyone living within a 50-minute drive of Guelph to check their property for anything suspicious.

Investigators have so far remained mum about any tips they may so far have received._

Thanks again, for helping in any way that you can. 
CC


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

CC, the State of Michigan seems to have an extensive network in place for locating missing/kidnapped children. Perhaps we can use this as a model or stepping stone.

View attachment 9138


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*links*

HI SM09:

Those look like excellent models to use. Could you possibly supply links to their websites so that readers can just 'click' to go there? I'll take a read myself and thank you for your positive input.
CC


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

ciaochiao said:


> HI SM09:
> 
> Those look like excellent models to use. Could you possibly supply links to their websites so that readers can just 'click' to go there? I'll take a read myself and thank you for your positive input.
> CC


MSP - Michigan's Missing Child Information Clearinghouse


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## ciaochiao (Apr 21, 2005)

*Thank you Tori*

Ruefully, we all can thank Tori Stafford for the sacrifice she made to bring about a much needed amendment to the original Amber Alert. Thank you so much Tori. I am so sorry that this cost you your young life. Thank you in advance, for the lives your inspired change will save.
CC

Ontario makes Amber Alerts easier to issue - thestar.com

http://files.newswire.ca/380/AMBERAlertReview.pdf


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

I just hope that the influx of false Amber Alerts don't detract from real ones.

Also Rogers doesn't allow Amber Alert Text messages.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

*Amber Alert rules eased*

I would like to add another article to CC's post above.

The crux of this article is the description of the new guidelines that "simplify the previously stringent criteria, giving police much more latitude when dealing with a suspected child abduction. The most critical change to the guidelines allows police to issue an alert if they believe an abduction has taken place rather than requiring confirmation of an abduction".

As CC said, it is very sad that it had taken a tragedy to expose the restrictive guidelines in the Amber Alert.

Amber Alert rules eased - Woodstock Sentinel Review - Ontario, CA

BTW Elric, false or not, the police authorities still have to issue Amber Alerts for every suspected child abduction.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

sharonmac09 said:


> BTW Elric, false or not, the police authorities still have to issue Amber Alerts for every suspected child abduction.


But at least before it weeded out the "missing kids" that were at their friends house, or helping deliver papers etc.

Even with the new criteria, the Amber alert would have gone out for Tori too late.


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## The G3 Man (Oct 7, 2008)

A much needed improvement. As long as it is not abused. Or pranked, as many immature teens like to do. I find that as soon as something like this comes out, there WILL be people who will abuse it. No matter what. But for the real situations, this strategy will greatly help. I am quite sure that soon enough ROGERS will let you make amber alerts.

Morgan


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