# Apple is gouging Canadians...



## kerrigan (Oct 15, 2007)

This is my first post here... excuse me if this subject has been discussed before.

Last friday, Apple automatically charged my credit card $139.00 CAD for the renewal of my .Mac account.

The list price for an account renewal in the US is $99.
With the Canadian dollar trading above the US dollar... this is just corporate greed.

W. Kerrigan


----------



## Gene Rayburn (Jun 30, 2007)

Unlike 99% of times people complain about how they're being overcharged for something now that the two dollars are equal, this is a valid complaint. 

One must remember though that back in the days when the dollar hovered around 70 cents, it was Steve Jobs who insisted that Canadian iTMS songs be priced at 99 cents Canadian, even though in the US they went for 99 cents American (meaning significantly less revenue for Apple). I think Apple, of all companies, can be excused at least a bit for not updating their prices automatically.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

you could always cancel or unsubscribe to your .mac acct.

it does seem that apple is taking an huge advantage of the current exchange rate between u.s. and cdn. dollars


----------



## SergesPlace (Oct 15, 2007)

The biggest gouge seems to be their ram prices. $165 for 1gb of ram? Are you freaking kidding me?


----------



## kerrigan (Oct 15, 2007)

The 99 cent iTune was the psychological price point, the US or Canadian consumer was willing to pay.

Apple spends millions on advertising & PR, then they do this.
All that branding money will go down the drain, when the media starts writing stories on this classic corporate rip off.


----------



## Gene Rayburn (Jun 30, 2007)

kerrigan said:


> The 99 cent iTune was the psychological price point, the US or Canadian consumer was willing to pay.


Indeed, and Apple chose to honour it as opposed to go up to, say, $1.29 as it did in countries like Australia and NZ (their prices are something around that). Apple was willing to take the hit to save us a few cents.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify what Apple's doing here -- just keep everything in context.


----------



## kerrigan (Oct 15, 2007)

I just found out... if you write about the price difference between Canada and the US on any of the Apple discussion forums... Apple will remove it!

I encourage all of you, to give it a try...
But be polite, after all we are Canadians.

Then after a 2 days, let us know what happens.


----------



## Syphen (Oct 10, 2007)

The joys of being Canadian. We are getting ripped off on just about everything when compared to the states. All I gotta say is that I have been ordering ALOT of stuff off ebay right now. I just got a mac mini for $500 canadian shipped to my place (specs below), I think it was a decent deal.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

kerrigan said:


> I just found out... if you write about the price difference between Canada and the US on any of the Apple discussion forums... Apple will remove it!
> 
> I encourage all of you, to give it a try...
> But be polite, after all we are Canadians.
> ...


Let's try it then.

My .Mac member name is Plmnice and I posted just now. Here are screen shots of the post menu and its content. We'll se it it gets deleted:


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

Actually, the Canadian dollar is worth $1.03 US.


----------



## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

I just bought .Mac on eBay for US$90...C$87.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Here's a stick, go find a dead dog named DotMac and beat it. Woof.

I bought .Mac last year during Apple's Black Friday sale and saved some $50 or $60 or something. Hung onto the box until my renewal date in May.


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

dona83 said:


> Here's a stick, go find a dead dog named DotMac and beat it. Woof.


lol! We have beaten this .Mac gouging to death on this board lately... not that it makes the gouging any less nasty! 



dona83 said:


> I bought .Mac last year during Apple's Black Friday sale and saved some $50 or $60 or something. Hung onto the box until my renewal date in May.


And look at that, Black Friday is coming up again soon. The *one* time per year when Apple actually has a sale!


----------



## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

I've replied to the thread on Apple discussions, We'll see how long it lasts,
However it is already labeled as "Answered", Which is just wrong.

Dave


----------



## kerrigan (Oct 15, 2007)

fyrefly said:


> lol! We have beaten this .Mac gouging to death on this board lately... not that it makes the gouging any less nasty!
> 
> Sorry... I'm new to this forum.
> But we pay $143.09 US for a .Mac account which costs $99 in the US.
> If we say or do nothing... then nothing will change.


----------



## sashmo (Oct 19, 2002)

We talked about this problem at my Mac MUG. Could we get a petition together and send it to Apple Canada? Let them know that, for those people living near the US border, like me, the cheaper prices in the States are very enticing and Apple Canada would be losing business.


----------



## Gene B (Jul 2, 2001)

I've had my post deleted and I've seen others that hardly get started, deleted. You can not have 'Canadian' and '.Mac subscription cost' in same post without it being deleted. Someone is being overly sensitive on confronting the issue. Apple is being extremely :greedy: :greedy: :greedy: :greedy: :greedy: . Becoming another Micro$oft. tptptptp


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Don't like the Canadian prices? Move to the US.

OR

Evolve beyond .Mac - With a little time and education, you can get better than .Mac at a fraction of the price. You can get PHP/MySQL enabled webspace for a few dollars a month that gives you infinitely more functionality and space than a .Mac account


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

dolawren said:


> I've replied to the thread on Apple discussions, We'll see how long it lasts,
> However it is already labeled as "Answered", Which is just wrong.
> 
> Dave


For the record, the only way the post was allowed to appear was to select "answered". Leaving it as unanswered resulted in not allowing the post to appear. So far there are four replies, none deleted.


----------



## kerrigan (Oct 15, 2007)

No a petition won't move them... but the media will!
Apple needs to take notice... this could become the classic example of 'Canadian dollar corporate rip off'.

They spend millions on sending us a message...
I was buying...
Now we should send them one... 

So what can we do...
Write an email to any media outlet or blog, using words like 'corporate rip off' or 'gouging Canadians'.

I've just written to Steven Colbert... he love this stuff.

With enough pressure Apple will see the light...
But it's up to you and me.


----------



## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> Don't like the Canadian prices? Move to the US.
> 
> OR
> 
> Evolve beyond .Mac - With a little time and education, you can get better than .Mac at a fraction of the price. You can get PHP/MySQL enabled webspace for a few dollars a month that gives you infinitely more functionality and space than a .Mac account


OR

Communicate in a forceful and rational way with a company that most of it's customers like a lot.

A nice email campaign and or petition, with some blog publicity might be interesting.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Well, it did not last long:

From: [email protected]
Subject: Your Post was removed
Date: October 15, 2007 8:04:35 AM MDT (CA)
To: [email protected]



Your post was removed from Apple Discussions as it contained feedback or feature requests. These areas are intended to address technical issues about Apple products. Although your feedback is appreciated, unfortunately these forums are not designed for it and your thoughts/concerns will not get the attention they deserve.

If you would like to send feedback to Apple about a product, please use the appropriate selection at http://www.apple.com/feedback/

Sometimes you have comments or concerns for which there is no technical response. If you need the kind of help that a troubleshooting expert can't provide, you can call Apple's Customer Relations group.
++++++++++

This message is sent from a send-only email account. Any replies sent to this address are deleted automatically by the system.

----------

A copy of your message for reference:

Now that the Canadian dollar is worth 97 cents USD, why does Apple charge us Canucks $139 for .Mac when Americans pay only $99. Hardly seems fair, does it?


----------



## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

Wasn't .Mac (alias iTools) suppose to be free for life?

So, if Apple is "gouging" us, that should be no surprise to anyone.


----------



## Gene B (Jul 2, 2001)

Odd that it says, 'Apple.com > Support > Discussions'. I took a look to see the meaning of 'Discussions' in my eMacs dictionary. Here's what it says;

"the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas • a conversation or debate about a certain topic • a detailed treatment of a particular topic in speech or writing." 

Apple must have a different meaning for 'Discussions', such as you are free to discuss whatever we deem appropriate however limited the scope. Everyone must blindly march to the same drummer as lemmings jumping off a cliff. Difference of opinion, however slight, will not be tolerated. Clapping seals and dancing monkeys are welcome to join these discussions. :clap: :clap:


----------



## pictor (Jan 29, 2007)

I wouldn't pay $99 either...nor even $49

I'd consider .mac for $25-$30. Even then...I am not sure it would be worth it, but that is really the price point it should be sitting at.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

It's pointless to complain about the price. Like any other item you chose to buy or not buy depending on its worth to you. 

I dare say the majority have taken matters into their own hands and let their fingers do the walking elsewhere to purchase .Mac. There are a multitude of options to chose from, if you take the time of finding out.


----------



## kerrigan (Oct 15, 2007)

adagio said:


> It's pointless to complain about the price. Like any other item you chose to buy or not buy depending on its worth to you.
> 
> I dare say the majority have taken matters into their own hands and let their fingers do the walking elsewhere to purchase .Mac. There are a multitude of options to chose from, if you take the time of finding out.


I assume it will cost fossil fuel to ship it to me.
I'm trying to live 'Green'.

But no matter... the point is not about ME saving money.
It's about $99US in the USA vs. $143US in Canada.


----------



## imachungry (Sep 19, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Don't like the Canadian prices? Move to the US.
> 
> OR
> 
> Evolve beyond .Mac - With a little time and education, you can get better than .Mac at a fraction of the price. You can get PHP/MySQL enabled webspace for a few dollars a month that gives you infinitely more functionality and space than a .Mac account


You consistently win the ass of the year award. The solution to this GOUGE from Apple is to move to the U.S. or get more technical skills. Nice.


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

imachungry said:


> You consistently win the ass of the year award. The solution to this GOUGE from Apple is to move to the U.S. or get more technical skills. Nice.


Here we go again. Boo hoo. :-( I don't like Apple's pricing in Canada. Maybe if I jump up and down and scream loud enough, somebody will care.

.Mac even at $99 is a rip-off. Why do people waste their money on it? Because they don't have the technical knowledge to do better. And for that, you are a slave to Apple's pricing policies. What are your options?

1) Cry, cry, cry some more until you pay the 'fair' price of $99 for an overpriced service.

2) Pick up a book, spend some time on the weekend educating yourself, and get the knowledge required to abandon Apple's .Mac. (But I guess that would require work, whereas whining and crying requires a whole lot less effort)


----------



## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... Wasn't .Mac (alias iTools) suppose to be free for life? ..."

Apple never said it would be free, period, never mind "free for life". iTools was a beta; like most betas, it was free at that point and also like most betas, future pricing was not discussed.

I also remember free copies of OSX (10.1) too, but I never thought that would mean free OS's for life. Maybe if I had only whined and complained more when 10.2 came out with a price tag attached, we'd all have free OS's right now. Go ahead, blame me. I can take it.

But, back to what seems to be the usual target: DotMac.

Either dotMac is worth what you pay or it isn't. A price is just that; a price. Price and value are related, but they are not the same thing. Value is what something is worth to you, and price is what you pay for it. They are rarely, if ever, equal.

If they are equal, then broadly speaking most people would not buy, or buy reluctantly, since even a small erosion in value or a tiny increase in price means it no longer offers enough value to you.

Consumers expect greater value than price, or they generally don't buy. Gouging? Obviously, you don't see the value in the product. Stop buying it (why I should have to say that is beyond me, but if you need to be reminded, there it is).

You can get DotMac for a wide variety of prices; and if you have a few moments to shop around, I suggest you do so. Funny, that's what I do when I buy anything; either I pay the asking price or keep looking, and even whether I do that is based on the value I place on my time and effort. Go figure.

I paid $69 + tax last year, at a retail store in Canada no less. Last week I paid $88 (total).

Great price but you have to keep in mind that DotMac was worth the $140 price to me in the first place; otherwise I would be an idiot to pay $69 for something I don't see any value in. Once I paid Apple's asking price at the AppleStore. Whatever.

The dollar you earn = the amount of work you must do to pay for dotMac. If your salary is the same, it's the exact amount of work you had to do last year to pay for it. There is the measure of what it's worth to you; forget the price; forget the currency differences. If you want to play with buying in different currencies, go ahead ... people have been doing it for years.

Consumer Value versus Currency Value:

The rules are the exact same even when buying in a different currency: the value of a US dollar is higher than the price you pay in Canadian dollars if what you want to do with it is buy dotMac.

Don't expect companies to adjust prices based on currency values at the drop of a hat. First of all, these values move a lot anyway. They want to wait and get a handle on whether there is a stable range or not. Until there is (and right now the US dollar is far from stable) they will be reluctant to build in the whole adjustment; they need to protect themselves from swinging the other way. Once it's clear there is a stable, equilibrium range, they will adjust accordingly, at the next regular price adjustment period (perhaps once, twice, or three times a year). Not before.

The products Apple Canada is selling cost them X dollars when they bought it, and they would lose money to sell them for less now. Never mind that Apple Canada is part of Apple; if it doesn't earn it's keep by itself it will be shut down. It also costs more to run Apple Canada (per sale) than it does to run Apple USA. That's business.

I know of many firms that are losing significant amounts of money because of the dollar; they sell a product in $US and deliver the product, ie pay their costs, in $C. Some are bankrupt now, and others are sure to follow. In these cases, the difference in the dollar values from sales to delivery is about 13%.

There are not many small businesses who manage a 13% net profit; basically 2 years worth of profit (if things were going well; more if they were not so hot) has simply vanished in a 6 month period. These businesses need to recover what will amount to three years profit in the next year. Guess what that means for pricing going forward in the next 12 months.

I'm mentioning that because it gives you an example of the volatility of currency and it's impact on a business; retailers are not going to adjust prices until old inventory is sold. They are not going to be able to adjust exactly to the dollar because currency is not the only difference in the cost of business in each country. When the $C dollar was worth more than $US (I'm old enough to remember) prices were still higher in Canada; the cost of doing business is higher here, mostly due to distance and market size issues.

If consumers stop buying in Canada then it takes even longer for the currency value to trickle down through inventory (talk to a motorcycle or boat dealer and ask him if he has any inventory from summer '07 around: chances are he has lots, because he sold less as consumers drove across the border to buy, and he paid more for it than it's worth new today).

Service industries also pay for paper, ink and lights and it will also take time for prices to move through these industries; and as these are the suppliers to every reseller it means costs of doing business remain higher for a while; Apple is not selling computers out of a garage.

On the other hand, US border snowmobile and RV dealers had record years in '07 due to Canadians buying there; they can lower prices even more since they have excess profits. At the same time, they worry about recession in their own markets in '08.

t will take 6 to 12 months for most businesses to adjust to new currency values. Furthermore, businesses who drop prices quickly today (take losses on old inventory they paid for already) will have to recover that money in the next 24 months, so prices for them will be higher than necessary; the spread will have to be smaller and prices will be closer to the $US price, but still higher in $C for longer in that case.

If a company waits and sells off old inventory, it will be longer before prices fall, but when they do they will be almost equal to the $US after the adjustment period. I think, reading between the lines, that that is what most Mac users would prefer Apple do.

Even though DotMac may be an electronic transaction, it's still part of the business cycle and adjustments in price won't happen before the next revision is normally due. All US-based firms are experiencing volatility in currency markets: the Euro, the Yen, the other currencies that play major roles in their overall business. It may well be a $C strategy will be delayed until a policy for currencies worldwide is established; it's not just Canada that's experiencing volatilty versus the US dollar. Many US firms don't normally spend a lot of time visiting currency issues, so this is a rude awakening to them and they may need more time to decide what they will do next.

I don't have any answers for those who want it all, and want it now. Your life will be as miserable and unsatisfying as it's always been, unless you really are still a child, in which case you might grow out of it.

For the adults amongst us, you can wait and buy less, you can carry on as before (an hour's work buys the same stuff in Canada it did 6 months ago) or you can shop in the US. Blaming the messenger for structural issues it has little control over only makes blood boil for no reason. Save your blood pressure; perhaps try a vacation in the carrribbean this winter. Travel industries are one area where currency values move quickly through the system.


----------



## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> Here we go again. Boo hoo. I don't like Apple's pricing in Canada. Maybe if I jump up and down and scream loud enough, somebody will care.
> 
> .Mac even at $99 is a rip-off. Why do people waste their money on it? Because they don't have the technical knowledge to do better. And for that, you are a slave to Apple's pricing policies. What are your options?
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Possibly reasonable points, put somewhat unreasonably. Then again, there are no points for being a diplomat...

One might observe that many of life's convenient services could be approached this way - simply do it yourself. 

It's great though that there are people who develop products and services that allow us to make cool lifestyle choices. For some who make full use of .Mac the sheer breadth of the services allied to the convenience make it a very attractive option. 

On this thread there aren't too many complaints about .Mac, just observations about the pricing in Canada relative to that in the US. Whining is one way to put it. Others might consider it consumers who like a product feeling that the pricing policy needs adjustment. Nothing wrong in that. It's called observing, conversing and sharing views on a forum. 

Some might prefer this sort of whining, if that's what it is, to coming across as snarly and bitter.


----------



## kerrigan (Oct 15, 2007)

guytoronto said:


> Don't like the Canadian prices? Move to the US.
> 
> OR
> 
> Evolve beyond .Mac - With a little time and education, you can get better than .Mac at a fraction of the price. You can get PHP/MySQL enabled webspace for a few dollars a month that gives you infinitely more functionality and space than a .Mac account


mmm... I'm new here, so you don't know anything about me.
I choose to own a .Mac account for many differnt reasons, which I won't go into here.
I'm fully aware of all the other options...

Please, read at the topic header again.


----------



## Todd (Oct 14, 2002)

kerrigan said:


> This is my first post here... excuse me if this subject has been discussed before.
> 
> Last friday, Apple automatically charged my credit card $139.00 CAD for the renewal of my .Mac account.
> 
> ...


When you signed up for the .Mac service, did you agree to the C$ 139 price? I think you did. That's what Apple offered and that's what you accepted. It's not "corporate greed" that Apple is keeping their side of the bargain. It's your "personal greed" that is expecting to go back and change the terms of the deal because you think you have a case to complain and get more than what you first accepted.

Prices of products are never determined by doing some pocket calculator math on the US / CDN dollar exchange rate.


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Todd said:


> When you signed up for the .Mac service, did you agree to the C$ 139 price? I think you did. That's what Apple offered and that's what you accepted. It's not "corporate greed" that Apple is keeping their side of the bargain. It's your "personal greed" that is expecting to go back and change the terms of the deal because you think you have a case to complain and get more than what you first accepted.
> 
> Prices of products are never determined by doing some pocket calculator math on the US / CDN dollar exchange rate.


Come on Todd! That just makes sense! Apple set a price, and you expect people to just accept it? Pul-lease!

BTW:
.Mac Australia - Aus$139.95 = CDN $122.93
.Mac UK - £69.00 = CDN $137.48
.Mac Japan - ?9,800 = CDN $81.54

Holy crap! We're getting ripped off compared to the Japanese!


----------



## kerrigan (Oct 15, 2007)

Todd said:


> When you signed up for the .Mac service, did you agree to the C$ 139 price? I think you did. That's what Apple offered and that's what you accepted. It's not "corporate greed" that Apple is keeping their side of the bargain. It's your "personal greed" that is expecting to go back and change the terms of the deal because you think you have a case to complain and get more than what you first accepted.
> 
> Prices of products are never determined by doing some pocket calculator math on the US / CDN dollar exchange rate.


"personal greed" 
Wow, this is a mean spirited forum!

Yes I signed up when the Canadian dollar was .65 and let Apple automatically renew. We all live different lives, I'm very busy and travel all the time. 
So I use suppliers I trust. I don't care about the $40... When the invoice arrived... Apple lost my trust.

But once again... this post is not about me.


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

*Another* thread on this subject? At this rate, we'll average one of these complain-about-Apple-pricing threads at least once bi-weekly until Apple adjusts their pricing to suit the complainers.


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

gordguide, you raise some interesting and well-reasoned points. Unfortunately, you're also mistaken in some of your basic premises.

Value is what someone is willing to pay for a good or service. It is the maximum theoretical price one would pay for that good or service - if they can get it for less, that's great. But they would continue to buy up to the point that value = price. If a good or service costs more than the perceived value, then people will not buy it. There is an important rider attatched to this, being neccessary services (like, let's say, a plumber's work). People may feel they're being cheated, that the value of the services offered is not in line with the price, but in this case neccessity trumps value. And sometimes people do act on impulse and buy things that they value less than they pay. But by and large, value = price paid. Market value for a product is a different thing, and it's the relationship between what the population is willing and able to pay. It can differ from personal value, since market value is (I think) determined from something like the 75 percentile of personal value.

The other mistake you make is talking about stored inventories. In the case of hardware, you're right: Apple paid X dollars for the components, they need to sell the hardware at a certain level to recoup their costs. And adjusting pricing too soon could have severe negative ramifications if the exchange rate shifts dramatically.

But we're talking about .Mac, which is not hardware. Apple did not "build" 300 .Macs at exchange rate X it needs to sell - it is an entirely online service, and so is not constrained by the same reasons as hardware pricing is. The Canadian dollar has been high enough for long enough now that to offer .Mac at a 65% (or whatever it is) exchange rate is offensive.

GT: you are right in that different markets mean different pricing. However, this logic is lost on many people in North America because we share a common border. Canadians find it offensive that they can drive across the border and buy the same product for a fraction of the price. Comparing US/Canada pricing to Canada/Japan pricing is a little silly because the two are distinct markets seperated by an ocean. With Canada/US, the line is much blurrier.


----------



## Digital_Gary (Sep 18, 2003)

Lars said:


> *Another* thread on this subject? At this rate, we'll average one of these complain-about-Apple-pricing threads at least once bi-weekly until Apple adjusts their pricing to suit the complainers.


Here here! It is very frustrating but it is not just Apple you should be complaining about. Do a price comparison on your favorite car. That is something worth bitching over.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

kerrigan said:


> I just found out... if you write about the price difference between Canada and the US on any of the Apple discussion forums... Apple will remove it!
> 
> I encourage all of you, to give it a try...
> But be polite, after all we are Canadians.
> ...


It never fails to make me laugh why people think that a complaint post on Apple's technical discussion forums won't get deleted. It's Apple's own Discussion forum! They'll delete want they want! They won't let you post anything and everything. It's not a complaints department.


----------



## imobile (Oct 6, 2007)

We are not all mean spirited.
I agree with you that the differential is TOO great given the current exchange rate. 
However, down go resources including energy, down goes the almighty Loonie!
So the question is, how often should Apple adjust exchange rates. Annually, monthly, weekly or daily?

I cannot see in this so called 'internet age' why we simply cannot pay for American products in $US IF we were allowed to buy from the US Apple Store.
After all, products ordered from Apple Store Canada are shipped from beautiful Elk Grove ( Sacramento County), at least to us here on the Left Coast.
Computers bought online from Apple .ca are of course Fed Ex shipped from Taiwan and or China ~ my last two were shipped via Alaska to Nashville, Tenn ... then to Canada.
So maybe the question should be is why can't we buy from the Apple Store .com?


See Apple Website.
U.S. Sales Only

"The Apple Store sells and ships products only within the continental United States, Alaska, and Hawaii. No shipments can be made to APO or FPO addresses, United States territories, or addresses outside the United States. You may not export any products purchased at the Apple Store."

Same applies to Canada store ~ 

Canadian Sales to End-Users Only
The Apple Store will only sell and ship product within the boundaries of Canada. No shipments can be made to PO Box addresses or addresses outside Canada. Products purchased at the Apple Store may not be exported.

Then again ~ Amazon.com will NOT ship many articles to Canada either. And Amazon .ca is a mere shadow of the US Store ... nothing much apart from books and music offered!

I just tried to buy right now ~
SanDisk 8 GB Extreme III CF Card SDCFX3-8192-901 (Retail Package) 
$104.95 - In Stock 
Condition: new 
Sold by: Amazon.com 



*** We're sorry. This item can't be shipped to your selected destination. You may either change the shipping address or delete the item from your order by changing its quantity to 0 and clicking the update button below.

*Shipping Restrictions
Warranty issues and manufacturer restrictions prevent us from shipping certain products to all geographical locations. You'll be notified while placing your order if we're unable to ship specific items to the address you've selected.


Well at least my Apple shares bought in 2002 have been nice to me! Even if they were bought with a 65 cent Loonie!


Cheers ~
iMobile




kerrigan said:


> "personal greed"
> Wow, this is a mean spirited forum!
> 
> Yes I signed up when the Canadian dollar was .65 and let Apple automatically renew. We all live different lives, I'm very busy and travel all the time.
> ...


----------



## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Demosthenes, I agree with much of what you say, but I think you miss some key aspects of DotMac that don't fit your arguments.

" ...
But they would continue to buy up to the point that value = price. If a good or service costs more than the perceived value, then people will not buy it. There is an important rider attached to this, being necessary services (like, let's say, a plumber's work).
..."

This is true, for a one-time purchase of a product or service. A new TV (or a new Mac, for that matter)? Sure. The water is leaking and my flooring is getting ruined? Call the plumber; you betcha. Fix the leak and get outa here, thank you very much.

But DotMac, like your telephone service or your Bell TV Receiver, is not a one-time purchase. People, I should hope, anyway, are not going to subscribe to a service when the price and value are nearly identical. Consumers know that the phone bill or the gas bill or an annual online service is an ongoing transaction; prices can and often do rise, service levels or offerings can and do change.

So, if value is equal to price, for the most part people will say no, because they have already built in a price increase, or the potential for an increase, and a service decrease, or the potential for the service to change in a way that affects us individually, into the buying decision.

A good case in point is cellphone service. We all know we will probably be paying for a cellphone for years, if not the rest of our lives. A repeat purchase carries risk; we are wary of being locked in to one provider, losing our phone number if we balk at the service. So, the initial decision to get a cell phone won't be based solely on whether it's a good deal for the next 30 day or not; we will consider the risk of price increases, service changes, etc.

We are going to build in a certain "value cushion" (for lack of a better phrase) in to the buying decision. The more we use the phone, the more we give out the number, the more critical that number becomes, the more value we place in the service, and we know we are going to be "locked in" to that value before we begin. So, we've already factored in the extra value (or lack of same) before we even go shopping for a phone and provider. If we don't find it, we don't buy (which is an agreement to keep buying for what could be the rest of our lives).

Number portability significantly alters the value relationship with our cell phone; now we can buy based not on the value cushion we need, but on phone and service issues alone. Now we are like you suggested: value = price is a decent deal with number portability but a poor one without it. Value must exceed price without number portability or we don't buy; we want more value built in, to help compensate for the unknown.

DotMac is much more like a cell contract than a coffee at Starbucks. Although there are vague rumblings about eMail portability, it's a long way off if it even manages to stay on the radar in the future. Value decisions are based on complex factors and are not always similar or identical, and only partly are based on today's price.

As for stored inventories, I believe I did mention that DotMac is, or could be, an electronic inventory (but I didn't re-read my post to check). None the less, to clarify: it is part of the overall Apple Canada inventory and if Apple Canada doesn't store them in near-empty boxes, it's resellers across Canada do. These inventories, despite the glowing reports in the business press, are not just-in-time items but instead are purchased in bunches from time to time. It does not follow that it is significantly different than a box with hardware in it; inventory is inventory and losses and gains are spread over the whole warehouse.

Although we may see a DotMac account as simply a number on a piece of paper, it's really not much different than a boxed copy of PhotoShop in respect of cost of manufacture. Yet, there are still costs associated with a DotMac account that are not in that empty box, do not change whether it came from a boxed or electronic serial number, and are not found in software products like the boxed copy of PhotoShop either.

I don't know the details as to what, exactly, it costs to support an account to a subscriber in Canada versus one in the US, or whether there are physical servers or charges for the pipeline that are in Canada, or whether there is any price flexibility or inflexibility in that infrastructure affected by currency changes, but I do know that it's not free in either country; otherwise I would be making a tidy living literally selling boxes with numbers inside them myself.

Of course, that begs the question as to whether they would have the same value as Apple's near-empty boxes. I think we know the answer, though.

I do appreciate your thougtful and well reasoned response.


----------



## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

kerrigan said:


> "personal greed"
> Wow, this is a mean spirited forum!
> 
> Yes I signed up when the Canadian dollar was .65 and let Apple automatically renew. We all live different lives, I'm very busy and travel all the time.
> ...


Oh, but...now it is about you - because you dared to point out what many others have: Apple prices are out of line with the current value of the Canadian dollar. Moreover, you did that on a Mac forum where local resellers are members. I think it's in their best interest for customers to keep quiet about the price difference. Maybe resellers are profitting through the price difference? Who knows, but I doubt that we'll get an honest answer here - just a more nasty response if someone dares raise the spectre of apple ripping Canadians off for not adjusting their prices that were based on the value that our dollar used to be - and not exclusively on what cost the market would bear. I now expect some coward to tell me to move to the US. It's easy to be meanspirited over the internet - not so much when you're face to face.


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

> So, if value is equal to price, for the most part people will say no, because they have already built in a price increase, or the potential for an increase, and a service decrease, or the potential for the service to change in a way that affects us individually, into the buying decision.


Ah, but that's the trick, you see. People's perception of value of something they don't have, and their perception of value once they have something, can be very different. Take cable as an example - it's an easy decision to say, "No, I don' value cable at that price." and not order it. But once you have it, it's much harder to say "Oh, I don't value cable at this new, higher price, I'm canceling." I can't entirely explain it, but it's a shifting value curve, of sorts. That's why those stupid "$29.99 for the first three months!" deals are so popular; once you have it, it's a lot harder to give it up.

The point about .Mac not being in inventory the same way as hardware is that the cost of the boxes is trivial. Obviously were Apple Canada to reduce the price, they should compensate their resellers the difference, but Apple did not have to "build" .Mac at a higher exchange rate. There are no components - you are paying for a virtual service, the box is just the instructions on how to access it. Once you've done that once, the box loses any value. Contrast that to a piece of hardware, which is a tangible asset that keeps a value. Yes, Apple has to pay to run the .Mac servers, but the fact that they can charge 40% less in the States clearly shows that even at $99 they're making money, so there's no good reason that Canadians are being charged so much.


----------



## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

doesn't the US of A pay less at the Pump too? WHAAAA....and man to they B!TCH when the price goes up....just look at those whiners....

by the way I refused to pay the renewal price of .mac because I knew I could get it cheaper and I did from a fellow ehmacer! Thanks Jon!


----------



## iMuck (Oct 15, 2007)

Here's a story you guys might find funny. I went into a BestBuy to get a Mini DVI to DVI adapter for my MacBook (part number M9321G/B). 

Apple Store USA = US$19
Apple Store Canada = CAD$25

BestBuy Canada price = CAD$52.99 !!!

I complained to the service desk and they told me they could not sell it to me for less because that's the price Apple sells it to them! I bought a similar Belkin product instead for $17.


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

iMuck said:


> Here's a story you guys might find funny. I went into a BestBuy to get a Mini DVI to DVI adapter for my MacBook (part number M9321G/B).
> 
> Apple Store USA = US$19
> Apple Store Canada = CAD$25
> ...


I had the exact same experience - except when I went in, the adapter was hanging on the wrong hook, which was labeled $27.99. Bit of a nasty shock when I got to the till! Suffice to say, BestBuy did not get my business that day...


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

iMuck said:


> Here's a story you guys might find funny. I went into a BestBuy to get a Mini DVI to DVI adapter for my MacBook (part number M9321G/B).
> 
> Apple Store USA = US$19
> Apple Store Canada = CAD$25
> ...


As far as I was aware, Apple is the only company that makes the Mini-DVI to DVI adapter. I searched Belkin's website, and found nothing. Hmmmm.... makes me wonder how you bought a Belkin equivalent of an Apple only product.


----------



## Lee_Roy (Sep 1, 2007)

Bestbuy sells another adapter other than Apple for the mini DVI to DVI-D or mini DVI to VGA. It's their house brand Dynex. I bought a Dynex mini DVI to VGA for $18.99.


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

Then you would be wrong: http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pr...ngid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10090978&catid=25607#

But what really interests me is, what purpose did that post serve, GT? Other than (erroneously) implying that another user is a liar, what was the point? This is a supposed to be a friendly community, let's try not to **** on our fellow members for no reason, okay?


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Demosthenes X said:


> This is a supposed to be a friendly community, let's try not to **** on our fellow members for no reason, okay?


I guess it's okay to trash talk Apple though.


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

You insult the guy without provocation, without doing your homework, and your defense is "people are trashing Apple"? Give me a break. Apple is a company, not a person. And people are entitled to state their opinion about a company's pricing policies. And given Apple's pricing policies, we have good reason to discuss it.

Your last post, on the other hand, was unfounded and uninformed. If you don't have anything useful to offer to the discussion, restrain yourself from inflating your post count.


----------



## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

> Buy any Mac computer between July 24, 2007, and October 22, 2007, and you can get .Mac for only $69.95 for an individual one-year membership or $149.95 for the .Mac Family Pack.


From Apple

The Apple Store (U.S.) - Buy a Mac. Save on .Mac.

Again Apple doesn't mention anything about refurbished computers, Just any Mac.
But then...This is from the U.S. site anyways...But still.

Dave


----------



## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

guytoronto said:


> I guess it's okay to trash talk Apple though.


http://www.ehmac.ca/anything-mac/34605-apple-bad-microsoft.html

Of course, it's ok for him to bash Apple, because he's a reseller.
Just like other resellers on this board they..."band together" because they find common cause in brow-beating "whinners" to clam up when it affects their money interests.
Evidence:
Jun 11th, 2007, 03:02 PM
Replies: 20
Apple Sucks!
Views: 1,163
Posted By guytoronto

Whine, whine, whine. Typical ignorant-consumer rant.


Feb 25th, 2007, 06:40 AM
* #19 (permalink)
guytoronto
Sponsoring Member
*
Actually, this all brings up an interesting point. If we, as a Mac community, are supposed to "band" together, help each other, have the veterans help the newbies, why shouldn't we be raising our collective voices when something is amiss.

Say somebody is selling a iMac G5 with an Intel CoreDuo upgrade in the Classified. **Warning** Veterans know this is not possible. So we raise the warning flags all over the place.

How about is somebody is selling a 1GB stick of PC5300 for $300. WHAT!?! That price is outrageous. Should I just sit back and let some unknowing newbie get sucked in and lose money?

There is a fine line between letting free commerce reign in the Classifieds, versus the collective knowledge base here helping others know what is a good deal, and what is a scam." - Guytoronto



Well, when Apple pricing policy ignores the value of our dollar - and this is especially true for web based products and web purchases - and charges us prices that are based on a weak dollar - THAT is a scam! It's obvious that other people on this forum think so as well!
Like you said " there is a fine line between letting free commerce reign...and what is a scam". I hope you don't think I'm cherry picking, but I don't think I'm wrong on the essence of what you said.
Check out his post history for how Guytoronto feels about "whinners" (people whose opinions differ from his own).


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Leopard appears to be $129 in the United States, and $129 in Canada.

This thread must have done it...


----------



## dudemanguy (Oct 16, 2007)

SergesPlace said:


> The biggest gouge seems to be their ram prices. $165 for 1gb of ram? Are you freaking kidding me?


check out ramjet.com wicked ram prices for macs


----------



## dudemanguy (Oct 16, 2007)

SergesPlace said:


> The biggest gouge seems to be their ram prices. $165 for 1gb of ram? Are you freaking kidding me?


ramjet.com 1 gb of imac ram $39 USD, really easy to install as well


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

HowEver said:


> Leopard appears to be $129 in the United States, and $129 in Canada.
> 
> This thread must have done it...


Perhaps I WILL complain. It should be $125 CDN.


----------



## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

guytoronto said:


> I guess it's okay to trash talk Apple though.


Why not? They aren't perfect. There is a difference between commenting on a company online, and how you disagree with their pricing policy, but it is another thing to trash a fellow member of this site and imply they are a liar.


----------



## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

HowEver said:


> Leopard appears to be $129 in the United States, and $129 in Canada.
> 
> This thread must have done it...


LOL!


----------



## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

BTW, Leopard is priced the same in Cdn dollars as it is in US, that's a good start.


----------



## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

Demosthenes X said:


> You insult the guy without provocation, without doing your homework, and your defense is "people are trashing Apple"? Give me a break. Apple is a company, not a person. And people are entitled to state their opinion about a company's pricing policies. And given Apple's pricing policies, we have good reason to discuss it.
> 
> Your last post, on the other hand, was unfounded and uninformed. If you don't have anything useful to offer to the discussion, restrain yourself from inflating your post count.


----------



## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

The odd thing is that the educational price for Leopard is $116 in the US and $115 in Canada. Not that I'm unhappy to see that Apple is acknowledging the fact that the loonie is worth more than the USD, it's just weird that they did it with the ed pricing and nowhere else. 

Also, the ed pricing is no longer the great deal it used to be at $69 US and whatever it was here - I was living in the US for the past 16 years until April so excuse my ignorance of the actual CDN price. Generally, that seems to be a bit of a trend - the ed pricing difference seems to be getting smaller.


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

I blame this on Apple themselves. Their online education store does not take any measures to confirm buyers are actually post-secondary students or faculty, so people take advantadge of the pricing. At my campus computer store, the educational pricing for Tiger is $95 - I assume Leopard will be the same (but perhaps it won't be).


----------



## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

I just checked and I can get Leopard (single user) for $107 CDN. The "family pack" is $165.


----------



## Fox (Oct 4, 2002)

How are you getting such low prices; educator price is $115 for single, 199 for family.


----------



## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

Fox said:


> How are you getting such low prices; educator price is $115 for single, 199 for family.


Corporate rate on the Apple Canada site. $107.00 for single user. $165.00 for family pack.


----------



## stretch28 (Oct 14, 2007)

*Apple's not the only ones*

Have you bought a new book or magazine recently? Most books are at least 20% CAD than US.
It sucks but that life being the USA's little trained monkey.


----------



## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

dolawren, I was offered the standard DotMac discount when I bought my refurb MacBook from AppleStore Canada. You have to add it to your cart when you buy the hardware (same invoice, same time). I declined, by the way.

And, to Demosthenes X, when I was helping a friend price out a new Mac at the AppleStore Canada Education Store, he had to submit his employee # (there is a list of eligible institutions) to actually checkout. You can browse prices without proving your a student or employee, though.

There are a few items you can buy at Campus stores where you don't need to prove student or eligible employee status. With Apple, they restrict sales of Macs to those who can show ID; they won't sell a Mac, even at the regular retail price, at a Campus Store to someone who is not eligible to shop there. But, for some smaller items, it's fine.

Some software is the same as regular store bought items but is still sold at a discount (nod edu version either) and others you need to show valid ID and it may, or may not, be an EDU version.

I shop at the Campus store myself from time to time, without showing ID, because it's convenient to me if I'm on campus for whatever reason. But they won't sell me everything in the store. It depends on the item and the company policies; Epson doesn't seem to care, for example. For a new Mac or IBM/Lenovo computer, you do.

Microsoft, by the way, gives a free license of an OS and Office to any UofS employee who uses a computer, however briefly, in the course of their regular job. You use the Campus media set to install and the (unique) key is yours to use at home.


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

You have to input *a* number, yes. My understanding is that Apple does not actually bother to cross reference that number with the institution, however. This is what I heard from someone on another forum who ordered a new Mac recently, anyway.


----------



## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Apple _can't_ cross-reference the number; that would be illegal. However, they could attempt to verify the number with the institution (as in: is this a valid employee number? Yes or No) and they probably know what format the number should be in for each institution.

Pretending to be a student/employee is a criminal offense ("obtaining goods by fraud"). Now, I would expect the chance of prosecution to be slim to none; just don't get a loan from Apple to do it (lying on a loan application is a much more serious offense).

Apple could, if they found out, take actions that would be perfectly legal such as revoking the warranty of the Mac so obtained, and of course they are free to refuse to accept any order, now or in the future, for any reason.

Again I have no idea how likely you would be to get caught; my guess is not very, but if you're in the habit of skirting the rules don't make the usual mistake and brag about it (most people who get caught are the type who can't help themselves and just can't keep quiet).


----------



## 2hondas (Jun 26, 2007)

I (and many other car enthusiasts) see this on car forums all the time.

About Leopard pricing... I was on Apple.ca's education store (UWO), and Leopard was $115. 

I went to my campus computer store, and they said it would cost $99.95.


----------



## MacAddict (Jan 29, 2006)

I think you have it reversed. Isn't the current value of the US dollar equal to 97.6 cents Canadian ? 

This was in response to the submission that was posted by "SYNC" with a copy of his query on the Apple Discussion board. I don't know why it appears where it is.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Actually, all Apple (or anyone) can do is call the school and ask if a student is registered. Beyond that, all information including student numbers is protected by privacy legislation, and sharing/confirming it would require a court order. When staff or faculty members use an identification number, there is even less that Apple can check.

I hope they do check in some way, to prevent fraud, but it is unlikely that institutions would even respond to such a request.




gordguide said:


> Apple _can't_ cross-reference the number; that would be illegal. However, they could attempt to verify the number with the institution (as in: is this a valid employee number? Yes or No) and they probably know what format the number should be in for each institution.
> 
> Pretending to be a student/employee is a criminal offense ("obtaining goods by fraud"). Now, I would expect the chance of prosecution to be slim to none; just don't get a loan from Apple to do it (lying on a loan application is a much more serious offense).
> 
> ...


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

2hondas said:


> About Leopard pricing... I was on Apple.ca's education store (UWO), and Leopard was $115.
> 
> I went to my campus computer store, and they said it would cost $99.95.


Retailers are under no obligation to follow Apple's pricing. Nobody is going to be crazy enough to charge more than Apple list price, but a few will go below it.


----------



## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

My campus computer store website lists "Apple OSX 'Leopard'/Pre-order now! 79.20"

I was going to wait until summer when I was back and work and had an income again, but at that pricing it's sure tempting. I didn't have time to ask when I was in today, but I'm going to go in tomorrow and check RAM prices, and see if this Leopard pricing is their normal Educational price, or if this is a pre-order special on right now...


----------



## iMuck (Oct 15, 2007)

It seems that everything that's new has pricing on par (Leopard, bluetooth keyboard, etc). Hope to see updates on MBP and MacPro soon so prices get equalized!


----------



## ender78 (Jan 23, 2005)

kerrigan said:


> This is my first post here... excuse me if this subject has been discussed before.
> 
> Last friday, Apple automatically charged my credit card $139.00 CAD for the renewal of my .Mac account.
> 
> W. Kerrigan


Price is now $109 still not great but better.


----------



## emz (Dec 27, 2006)

HowEver said:


> Actually, all Apple (or anyone) can do is call the school and ask if a student is registered. Beyond that, all information including student numbers is protected by privacy legislation, and sharing/confirming it would require a court order. When staff or faculty members use an identification number, there is even less that Apple can check.
> 
> I hope they do check in some way, to prevent fraud, but it is unlikely that institutions would even respond to such a request.


There are so many schools, too many students and staff...I think it would be difficult for Apple online CSRs to double check the legitimacy of every purchase from the Education store. The only time that can be done 100% each time is when people purchase the item at an Apple retail store and show their valid ID.

I've always wondered, is it okay to use my credit card to buy a mac for my sibling who is a legitimate University student - if I were to buy an item from the Education store?


----------



## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

emz said:


> There are so many schools, too many students and staff...I think it would be difficult for Apple online CSRs to double check the legitimacy of every purchase from the Education store. The only time that can be done 100% each time is when people purchase the item at an Apple retail store and show their valid ID.
> 
> I've always wondered, is it okay to use my credit card to buy a mac for my sibling who is a legitimate University student - if I were to buy an item from the Education store?


It's certainly more legitimate for you to buy an educational product for a university student than it is for apple to charge 20% more for products in Canada - especially from their online store. Let's keep this thread alive. Maybe Apple and resellers will take notice. I won't be buying any apple products until their prices equalize with the value of our dollar.

Maybe it's a good idea to take a break from conspicuous consumption every once and awhile...
Oh, and has anyone heard that the iphone battery is glued AND soldered to its motherboard? I guess that will make it hard for anyone to replace their battery on their $400 itoy, eh? Maybe it was technically impossible to have replaceable batteries on the iphone? Maybe it was technically impossible for them to eliminate levels phalates in the plastic of their headphones that are 1.5 X higher than levels allowed for kids toys- oh wait, its a new product! Check out the new greenpeace campaign to change apple:
Video: YouTube - Has Steve really reinvented the phone?

Story: iPhone's hazardous chemicals | Greenpeace International


----------



## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

It's a bit of a rant, I know, but its not only true...its iTrue!


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

kerrigan said:


> fyrefly said:
> 
> 
> > lol! We have beaten this .Mac gouging to death on this board lately... not that it makes the gouging any less nasty!
> ...


----------

