# Vegetarian ehMacer's



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Hey

I am a vegetarian. Not for taste reasons, I think meat tastes pretty good, but for environmental and ethical reasons. 

Meat, especially beef, requires an insane amount of energy to produce one unit of energy for humans.

Anyway, I have been a vegetarian for about 3 months now. I have the occasional slip up with fish, but I am working on it.

How long have you been off the wagon?


----------



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hey Adrian...
I enjoy vegetarian meals immensely, but I must admit I am an Omnivore. I don't stay off the meat wagon very long. 

Have you ever read the book, "The Omnivore's Dilemma:? It's food for thought. I conscientiously shop for the most ethical and environmentally sound choices that I can make when purchasing meat. This usually means organic.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Looking at your avatar and those teeth, you sure don't look like a vegetarian.

I like my steak, my chicken, my pork, my lamb, my seafood, my eggs...etc.


----------



## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

I have no plans to be a vegetarian. I have no ethical problem with killing an animal for food. Do animals need to be treated with respect, of course. Animals can be harvested, humanly. Cattle may be overly used, but alternatives (bison, venison, elk) are still to costly. Even though most are proven to be better for you. And some lessen the environmental impact. Though this is less of a concern for me. As for fish, I like nothing better than a good fish fry in the summer. Perch is my choice.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

If you want to be a vegetarian, good for you.

I choose to follow in the steps of our ancestors who ate meat as part of a balanced diet.

Ya might say vegetarians are unbalanced, but hey, to each his/her own.


----------



## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

I like vegetarians. More meat for me. 

Seriously though, if someone chooses to be vegetarian, all the power to them.


----------



## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

T-bone steak + BBQ =


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I've been off the meat wagon for about three hours. 

I think it's coming by again in another 45 minutes.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I've been vegetarian for 19 years, and ate meat very seldom prior to that.

Most people react very defensively when I mention my dietary preference, and to be honest, it's probably because many people who've recently become vegetarian tend to be very excited about it and start telling everyone around them about the evils of meat. 

I don't think meat is evil.

My decision was not an ethical one, though there are many ethical issues factory-farmed meats, both in terms of animal cruelty and damage to the environment. 

Nor is my decision due to health reasons, since it is possible to be very unhealthy as a vegetarian. Frankly, I think the most healthy diet contains small amounts of meat.

Initially, it was mostly a culturally-influenced choice, but now, I stay vegetarian because I can't stand the texture of meat.... it feels strange and flesh-like.


----------



## Aurora (Sep 25, 2001)

I looked in the mirror-saw that I had Canines-figured my species needed meat. Had some.


----------



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I admire vegetarians and respect the lifestyle. 

I have tried to be a vegetarian, but not able to. Not for me, I love and crave meat so much. 

My favourite bumper sticker of all time is, "If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat."


----------



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

The vegetarian lifestyle is a challenge - not just because it is sometimes hard to resist meat, but just to get the right balance of nutrients. Protein and iron deficiencies can sometimes be a problem.

My dear cousin has been a vegetarian for the past 20+ years, for ethical reasons. She raised her 3 boys to be vegetarian (and now all her grown sons are omnivores). About 5-6 years back my cousin ended up in the hospital due to health issues caused by her diet. She now has lingering organ damage because of it. Vegetarians must be very vigilant with keeping their diets balanced. Be careful out there "veggies"!

As Sonal said, some veggies can get overly radical and extremist about it. My cousin is one of those types. This unfortunately caused a long standing family rift that began one Christmas Day.

We were all gathered at Grandma's house for Christmas dinner. As usual, many vegetarian dishes were prepared in order to accommodate the veggies amongst us. One of my cousin's sons (then 4 years old) spotted the turkey on the table and asked what that was. Granda gently told him. 

Well, he exploded into tears and shrieked at the top of his lungs to Grandma to "put the feathers BACK ON right NOW!".....nothing would calm him, the turkey was removed from view, we tried to distract him with other stiff...nothing worked - he just escalated into panic and hysteria...which started everyone else at the table "discussing" what should have and should not have been on the table and what my cousin should and shouldn't have taught her sons..... Of course the "discussion" just about turned in to a family brawl with accusations of "MURDERERS" and "Blood Thirsty" and "Tree Huggers" being exchanged. There was no right answer and we all decided to vacate the premises before it got "bloodier" than our gathering was already purported to be. 

I love family gatherings - they are rarely boring in my family.


----------



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Aurora said:


> I looked in the mirror-saw that I had Canines-figured my species needed meat. Had some.


BTW, Horses have canines.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

KC4 said:


> BTW, Horses have canines.


They eat Beef-a-rino!


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

You know, I would have little problem with eating meat - as I said, I enjoy the taste - if it weren't how they treat the animals. I have always thought it would be interesting to watch a movie or some sort of book where humans were raised specifically for the purpose of mass slaughtering. Indeed quite interesting it would be.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Soylent Green.


----------



## duosonic (Jan 7, 2004)

There really is no ONE diet or food approach that works for every "body" - each person has to make their choices based on what works for their body; has to decide about their ethics, processes, positions, etc., based on what they see & feel. I have known some vegetarians who are very healthy, and others who are not. I have known some carnivores/omnivores who are very healthy, and others who are not. 

I was vegetarian for about 4 years (a long time ago), and found that I was not satisfying my body's nutritional needs, and I finally gave in to the meat cravings - and saw a very rapid improvement in my health.

At this time, I am trying to access more well-raised meats - but I can't always afford it, and I can't always access it. I co-op farm, and can occasionally get lovingly organically raised chicken, turkey & pork - but we are far from producing all we need to feed two families. I am sometimes able to purchase other organically-raised meats from local farms, and the taste & texture differences from commercially-raised are astounding. I eat almost exclusively farm-grown eggs; and farm milk (unpasteurized). It makes a difference - tastes so much better, and I rest easy in my mind knowing that the animals producing these foods are well taken care of.

But the debate about vegetarian vs. omnivore rages on - and I am firmly in the meat-eating camp.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> I have always thought it would be interesting to watch a movie or some sort of book where humans were raised specifically for the purpose of mass slaughtering. Indeed quite interesting it would be.


Slightly different aim, but also "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuo Ishiguro.


----------



## johnnyspade (Aug 24, 2007)

I'm not sure I could live without bacon. I have a friend who became a vegetarian about 6 years ago and she says that she still salivates at the smell of it.

My girlfriend and I do try to follow a local diet though, in whatever we eat. All of out meat is raised locally and while it's a little more expensive we find it tastes better than the sweat shop meat we used to eat, especially the pork and the chicken.


----------



## DANdeMAN (Oct 20, 2006)

gwillikers said:


> T-bone steak + BBQ = Colon cancer


Fixed it for you.....


----------



## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

DANdeMAN said:


> Fixed it for you.....


Hey look everyone, a vegetarian comedian.


----------



## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals.
I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants.


----------



## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

SoyMac said:


> I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals.
> I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants.


This one is at least funny. Good one. :clap::lmao:


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Aurora said:


> I looked in the mirror-saw that I had Canines-figured my species needed meat. Had some.


Have a look at the dentition of gorillas, or other herbivorous primates... they've got much bigger canines than you do. Canines are very useful for penetrating and removing thick fruit rinds, and eating other plant foods. They're also a great example of sexual selection in primates.



KC4 said:


> Protein and iron deficiencies can sometimes be a problem.


Unless you're a strict vegan, or you have some unusual metabolic disorder, this is a myth.

Humans are facultative omnivores. We're like rats and raccoons, we can eat almost anything. But we can be perfectly healthy without meat.

In fact, we're much more healthy without meat. I've often wondered how it is that this fact remains an obscure item of scientific knowledge when it is so well-established and is of such obvious social importance. Is someone invented a pill you could take and reduce your chances of getting most forms of cancer by up to 40%, they'd win a Nobel Prize. But the fact that you can get this benefit by simply cutting meat out of your diet remains buried in the nutritional research literature and is rarely discussed.

My wife and I were vegetarian for about 15 years, and we still rarely eat any meat, but I have to admit, since moving back in time (the Maritimes appear to be in a time warp of some sort; social attitudes and commercial products appear to be lagging a few decades behind the rest of the country in many respects), we've slipped somewhat and occasionally indulge in some meat.

Because our motivations for cutting meat out of our diets were environmental and personal health, there is no black-and-white morality involved. But it's certainly true that the less meat you eat the better, both in terms of health and environmental impact.

Cheers


----------



## Griz (Apr 2, 2008)

I'm on a diet where I can only eat things that once had a face.

No face - no eat.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Another good one.

Bryan C: do you and your wife eat fish during those 15 years?


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Max said:


> Another good one.
> 
> Bryan C: do you and your wife eat fish during those 15 years?


No. As much as I love fish, and it's one of the least damaging meats from a health perspective (presuming it isn't loaded with mercury), the global fishery is such an environmental catastrophe I can't justify supporting it. Even now, I don't eat fish very often (occasionally one or two pieces of sashimi) for that reason. I will, however, eagerly consume oysters by the dozen.

Cheers


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Perhaps I should start a separate thread on this, but I couldn't help noticing that the poling on this has a much higher percentage of EhMaccer's in the vegetarian/sort-of-vegetarian camps than the general populace.

Given that we're also using a minority computing platform, and, from other discussions around here, there seem to be a disproportionately large number of atheists/agnostics (another minority), this has got me thinking.

I know that throughout my life, I've always been very skeptical of behaviors/beliefs/preferences exhibited by the majority. My adage has become, "if everyone is doing it/likes it/believes it, it's probably wrong." Obviously there are lots of exceptions, and when there's a good reason to follow the crowd, I have no problem doing so (and good reasons can be completely arbitrary: driving on the right side of the road is what everyone else does, and I have no objection to fitting in). But, in principle, I've come to believe that the majority get it wrong as often as not, and I'm strongly inclined to think for myself.

I can't help wondering if, by participating in a discussion group that selects for Mac-using Canadians (obviously there are non-canadians and non-mac users here as well, but you'll understand my point), I'm seeing a lot more non-conformists than would be reflected by society at large? Furthermore, is it fair to extrapolate that people who think for themselves are more likely to be vegetarian, mac-users, non-religious, environmentally concerned, well-educated, etc.? If EhMac is any indication, that might be the case.

Cheers


----------



## sashmo (Oct 19, 2002)

I want to join in here, simply because so many carnivores want to take up air space. Yes, I understand that carnies outnumber vegies. It's like pc users against apple users. 
I am a vegetarian and have been ever since university. There's a good book called "Food Matters" by Mark Bittman. He cites massive studies that say that everyone should eat more plants and that we are too dependent on cattle/diary cows. He states that if each American ate the equivalent of three fewer cheeseburgers a week, they'd cancel out the effects of all the SUVs in the country. But I do eat dairy, which is a product in the grey area.
I wonder sometimes if gender has anything to do with food choice. Are more guys dependent on eating animals than girls?


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

sashmo said:


> Are more guys dependent on eating animals than girls?


Oh man, do I have to bite my tongue not to add something here.


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

sashmo said:


> Are more guys dependent on eating animals than girls?


Only if they're sexually insecure, and feel the need to display their fierce hunter instincts by buying a steak at the grocery store.

A friend of mine used to insist that he "didn't eat 'rabbit food.' Feed it to a rabbit and then I'll eat it." He had a heart attack a few years ago (at the age of 41), and he's been starting to re-think this position.

While I'm sure our ancestors would eagerly eat as much meat as they could get, they also rarely lived to be over 50, and even the most successful hunters ate far less meat than the average north american does today.

If you compare the digestive systems of obligate carnivores (e.g. cats) to facultative omnivores (bears, humans, raccoons, rats, etc.) you'll note several distinctive differences that allow the cat to remain healthy on a meat diet. Humans not only can be healthy without meat, we're more healthy without meat, but the converse is not true, we can't be healthy without plant foods.

Cheers


----------



## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

SINC said:


> Oh man, do I have to bite my tongue not to add something here.


M&M's as wings on sale starting today. Just picked up 3 boxes of their new crispy jumbo's.... 

All kidding aside, I'd probably be a lot healthier if I ate more veggies and not the stuff above, the wife does try....


----------



## DANdeMAN (Oct 20, 2006)

gwillikers said:


> Hey look everyone, a vegetarian comedian.


Wrong...not a vegie.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I did the vegetarian thing for a year, I loved it. I never got sick, I always felt alive and well, the only thing is that I felt like I had less energy for hockey. I just keep everything balanced now, there'll be a few meals I eat where I omit meat, and there'll be meals before games where I'll stock up on carbs and protein.

Eventually when I own a house I'll probably raise a few chickens for eggs and meat now that it's legal to have backyard chickens in Vancouver. I love how some idiots are saying "Why would you be cruel and kill chickens, just go to the supermarket and buy chicken there." Uh yah because spending your whole life in a crowded coop with your beak sheared off and living in the filth of fellow sick and dead chickens is so much better.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I buy our chicken and turkey meat from a local Hutterite colony. They raise them naturally and they are plump and juicy and taste a thousand times better than store bought. Side benefit = cheaper too. Tell them you want two birds every second Wednesday in my bank's parking lot and there they are, right on time at 2:00 p.m. Place your order for the next time on the spot. Don't pay until the bird is in your hand. Chickens average 8 to 10 pounds. Nice big fat ones. No skinny fryers.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

SINC said:


> I buy our chicken and turkey meat from a local Hutterite colony. They raise them naturally and they are plump and juicy and taste a thousand times better than store bought. Side benefit = cheaper too. Tell them you want two birds every second Wednesday in my bank's parking lot and there they are, right on time at 2:00 p.m. Place your order for the next time on the spot. Don't pay until the bird is in your hand. Chickens average 8 to 10 pounds. Nice big fat ones. No skinny fryers.


That is very conscious of you SINC. I respect this. 

I purchase my eggs from a place called Rower farms. The farm is in Guelph, about 45 minutes from my location. They have some stores in Toronto, but I just buy their brand of eggs from the grocery store. 

They are naturally (antibiotic/hormone free), organic (no chemical feed) and wild range. I've been to there farm, and it seems quite nice. The chickens run around a big pasture, and they round them up every night in the barn to have the eggs for the morning. 

I figure I am supporting a family business, buying locally, organically/healthier and indeed more ethically.

They cost $4/dozen, while bulk eggs cost about $2.65/dozen. It doesn't save me money, but it balances out. 

Cheers mate.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

bryanc said:


> Only if they're sexually insecure, and feel the need to display their fierce hunter instincts by buying a steak at the grocery store.


Gimme a break. 



> A friend of mine used to insist that he "didn't eat 'rabbit food.' Feed it to a rabbit and then I'll eat it." He had a heart attack a few years ago (at the age of 41), and he's been starting to re-think this position.


Many people do when they face a life-altering experience. Perhaps he just had a bad habits in general. Maybe it was a lack of exercise? And maybe it was genetics. These are factors that I'm sure you're perfectly aware of.



> While I'm sure our ancestors would eagerly eat as much meat as they could get, they also rarely lived to be over 50, and even the most successful hunters ate far less meat than the average north american does today.


That has more to do with their way of life and environment than it has to do with whether or not meat is a necessity.



> If you compare the digestive systems of obligate carnivores (e.g. cats) to facultative omnivores (bears, humans, raccoons, rats, etc.) you'll note several distinctive differences that allow the cat to remain healthy on a meat diet. Humans not only can be healthy without meat, we're more healthy without meat, but the converse is not true, we can't be healthy without plant foods.
> 
> Cheers


Give me a break. While it's possible to live completely without meat, you need to supplement your diet--things that our ancestors had little or no access to depending on their environment, etc.

How many stories do you hear of the oldest people living on "non-meat" diets? Zero, I'd wager.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MannyP Design said:


> Give me a break. While it's possible to live completely without meat, you need to supplement your diet--things that our ancestors had little or no access to depending on their environment, etc.


That depends on whether you are vegan or vegetarian. If you consume eggs or dairy, no, you do not need to supplement.

If you do not eat any animal products, you _might_ need to supplement B12. However, given how our body stores and uses B12, this deficiency is somewhat uncommon and may not occur for several years. (There are some vegan sources of B12, but they aren't really common foods... certain seaweeds.)



MannyP Design said:


> How many stories do you hear of the oldest people living on "non-meat" diets? Zero, I'd wager.


How many stories do you head of oldest people smoking? I recall a few. That doesn't mean that smoking is good for you, any more than it means that a vegetarian diet is bad for you.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> How many stories do you hear of the oldest people living on "non-meat" diets? Zero, I'd wager.



Err...



> China's happy vegetarian turns 120
> (UPI Quirks in the News Via Thomson Dialog NewsEdge)Listed in the Guinness World Records as the oldest living person, a Chinese woman has marked her 120th birthday.
> 
> Celebrating her birthday Saturday with dozens of relatives and locals in the city of Leshan, Sichuan province, Du Pinhua said she has been vegetarian for her whole life, China Daily reported Wednesday.
> ...





> 27-year-old vegan collie could be world's oldest living dog
> 
> A border collie said to be 27 could make it into the Guinness Book of World Records as the world's oldest living dog.
> 
> ...


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Sonal said:


> That depends on whether you are vegan or vegetarian. If you consume eggs or dairy, no, you do not need to supplement.
> 
> How many stories do you head of oldest people smoking? I recall a few. That doesn't mean that smoking is good for you, any more than it means that a vegetarian diet is bad for you.


I think Bryanc made it quite clear: zero meat. So categorize that as you will.

~

And Adrian:

Man lived to 112 on junk food diet - Diet and nutrition- msnbc.com


----------



## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

Not a vegetarian by any means - I consider myself a _sensible omnivore_. Everything in moderation.

I do enjoy a good vegetarian meal from time to time though. When it comes to meat, I eat beef (in smallish quantities) only a couple of times per month. Most of the time it's poultry, various kinds of fish, and lean pork.


----------



## lewdvig (Nov 20, 2003)

three months so far


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MannyP Design said:


> I think Bryanc made it quite clear: zero meat. So categorize that as you will.


Well *zero meat* would be vegetarian (e.g., dairy/eggs allowed) so supplementing is not required. 

Zero animal-products (no eggs, no dairy, no honey, etc.) would be vegan; some supplementing might be required. 

This of course assumes that you eat a well-balanced diet, which applies to everyone--omnivore, vegetarian, vegan, etc.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Sonal said:


> Well *zero meat* would be vegetarian (e.g., dairy/eggs allowed) so supplementing is not required.
> 
> Zero animal-products (no eggs, no dairy, no honey, etc.) would be vegan; some supplementing might be required.
> 
> This of course assumes that you eat a well-balanced diet, which applies to everyone--omnivore, vegetarian, vegan, etc.


You're right. It could. But so many people blur the lines of the definition that half the time when people say Vegetarian, they mean (strict) Vegan, or some variation in between.

But even with dairy you still run the risk of "problems"... according to those who take issue with dairy products.


----------



## lewdvig (Nov 20, 2003)

MannyP Design said:


> You're right. It could. But so many people blur the lines of the definition that half the time when people say Vegetarian, they mean (strict) Vegan, or some variation in between.


I think Vegetarian's that eat poultry and fish are the funny ones. I've had a few people tell me they are that type of vegetarian.

I have to admit, I do like the occasional anchovy. But I hate those creatures and don't mind killing and eating them.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MannyP Design said:


> You're right. It could. But so many people blur the lines of the definition that half the time when people say Vegetarian, they mean (strict) Vegan, or some variation in between.
> 
> But even with dairy you still run the risk of "problems"... according to those who take issue with dairy products.


Re: dairy.... everything in moderation, including moderation.  Seriously, too much of any one food is probably not very good for you. But a little bit of everything is probably a good thing.

The traditional definitions are: 
semi-vegetarian--doesn't eat red meat, eats chicken & fish
pescetarian--no red meat or poultry, eats fish
vegetarian--no red meat, chicken or fish. There are two subtypes: lacto-ovo vegetarians (dairy & eggs okay--probably the most common) and lacto vegetarians (no eggs, dairy okay--more common among Hindus)
vegan--no animal products at all (including honey)
fruitarian--does not eat fruits or vegetables in which the plant is killed to harvest it (i.e., tomatoes and apples are okay, carrots and lettuce are not.)

The most commonly used definitions, though, are vegan and vegetarian (particularly lacto-ovo vegetarians.) 

I don't get the chicken-eating vegetarians either.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Sonal said:


> fruitarian--does not eat fruits or vegetables in which the plant is killed to harvest it (i.e., tomatoes and apples are okay, carrots and lettuce are not.)
> .


More like fruit-loops...

Stop killing the carrots!!!!


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

kps said:


> More like fruit-loops...
> 
> Stop killing the carrots!!!!






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Good one, Sonal.

I'm collecting for the "Save the Rutabagas" fund, the most misunderstood of vegetables. Thousands of them murdered in our own back yard and in Exeter, Ontario. Please donate.


----------



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Sonal said:


> Re: dairy.... everything in moderation, including moderation.  Seriously, too much of any one food is probably not very good for you. But a little bit of everything is probably a good thing.
> 
> The traditional definitions are:
> semi-vegetarian--doesn't eat red meat, eats chicken & fish
> ...


Thanks Sonal,
I never really understood the distinctions before. Hindus can consume dairy, but not cows, right?


----------



## bgw (Jan 8, 2008)

Eating anything that can't run away or defend itself is unfair!


----------



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

bgw said:


> eating anything that can't run away or defend itself is unfair!:d


ok...


----------



## bgw (Jan 8, 2008)

Are they spicy?


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

KC4 said:


> Thanks Sonal,
> I never really understood the distinctions before. Hindus can consume dairy, but not cows, right?


Well it kind of varies... depends on how devout a particular Hindu (or Jain, for that matter) is, what the traditions of their particular community are, etc. Ideally, all Hindus should be vegetarian but many are not. I know of a lot of families where mom is vegetarian, dad and the kids are not, but they are all still Hindu. (I suppose that's kind of analogous to a lot of Catholic families where mom goes to mass every week, but dad and the kids avoid it.)

The thing with most Eastern religions are the 'rules' aren't so black and white. It's not so much "Thou shalt not eat meat" so much as "Cows are kind of special to us, so not eating cows would be great first step, but ideally we'd like it if you didn't eat any meat at all... and it would be even better still if you didn't eat eggs either... and better still if you didn't wear leather...." etc.


----------



## Irie Guy (Dec 2, 2003)

Lacto Ovo Vegetarian for nearly 17 years now. I think that's right, give or take a year, I have sort of stopped counting. I don't preach my lifestyle in fact I really don't care what anyone else eats because my choice is what I choose to do. 

Living in the heart of Bruce County (Beef Country) there certainly arent many options for eating out. I guess Pizza is the simplest take out option. I do love Indian and Ethiopian food when I get the chance.


----------



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Thanks Sonal for the further explanation - very interesting.

Hey Irie Guy - very cool avatar! I like Indian and Ethiopian food too, but the latter is harder to find.


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Irie Guy said:


> I do love Indian and Ethiopian food when I get the chance.


One of the things that struck me as counter-intuitive about becoming vegetarian, was how it dramatically broadened my culinary palette. It struck me as odd that removing something from my diet (especially something that had made up so significant a portion), would so radically _increase_ the diversity and enjoyment of the food I ate.

Before I quit eating meat, I had never tried Ethiopian, East or West Indian, or much Thai food. And my knowledge of Chinese food was 'sweet & sour pork.' There is so much great food out there to be experienced, that one certainly doesn't need to kill a lot of animals to eat something different and wonderful every day.


----------



## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

You can get great Ethiopian food in London, Ontario. I still eat meat, but have enjoyed a variety of foods from around the world. I do not mind a vegan meal here and there if it tastes yummy. Just a side note there are meat dishes at the Ethiopian Restaurant.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I have tried other cuisines but found none that I care for at all. I have to go to a friend's 65th on Friday and his better half has scheduled the party in a local Greek restaurant. I cannot stand any type of Greek food, so it will dampen my experience. I guess other than the odd feed of Chinese food, I'm pretty much a meat and potatoes guy.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

SINC said:


> I have tried other cuisines but found none that I care for at all. I have to go to a friend's 65th on Friday and his better half has scheduled the party in a local Greek restaurant. I cannot stand any type of Greek food, so it will dampen my experience. I guess other than the odd feed of Chinese food, I'm pretty much a meat and potatoes guy.


You don't like Greek food?!!!?!?!??! 

Who like's Lebanese Schwarma's? That is where it's at.


----------



## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

SINC said:


> I have tried other cuisines but found none that I care for at all. I have to go to a friend's 65th on Friday and his better half has scheduled the party in a local Greek restaurant. I cannot stand any type of Greek food, so it will dampen my experience. I guess other than the odd feed of Chinese food, I'm pretty much a meat and potatoes guy.


Don... souvlaki (chicken, beef, or lamb), and Greek potatos. It's actually really good. A bit of pita bread and a bit of Greek salad. Yum.

I don't see a problem at all. 

How can you not like that?


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

gwillikers said:


> Don... souvlaki (chicken, beef, or lamb), and Greek potatos. It's actually really good. A bit of pita bread and a bit of Greek salad. Yum.
> 
> I don't see a problem at all.
> 
> How can you not like that?


Well, first of all anything to do with a sheep has never passed these lips. Never will. Can't even stand the smell of lamb and that is what permeates any Greek place I've ever been in. Goat cheese is also off my list and has a repulsive smell to me so their salads are out too. When the very smells coming from the kitchen make me want to retch, I find little enjoyment in being in such places, thus my only experience for the evening will be one of discomfort.


----------



## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

SINC said:


> Well, first of all anything to do with a sheep has never passed these lips. Never will. Can't even stand the smell of lamb and that is what permeates any Greek place I've ever been in. Goat cheese is also off my list and has a repulsive smell to me so their salads are out too. When the very smells coming from the kitchen make me want to retch, I find little enjoyment in being in such places, thus my only experience for the evening will be one of discomfort.


I understand.


----------



## Irie Guy (Dec 2, 2003)

DR Hannon said:


> You can get great Ethiopian food in London, Ontario. I still eat meat, but have enjoyed a variety of foods from around the world. I do not mind a vegan meal here and there if it tastes yummy. Just a side note there are meat dishes at the Ethiopian Restaurant.


Of course there are Meat dishes at Ethiopian restaurants I hope I didnt imply differently. I'm not sure if restaurants here are allowed to serve the traditional raw beef dishes. Funnily enough the best Indian food I have ever had was in Ethiopia when I spent 9 weeks there in 2007.

I will be having Ethiopian in London in April prior to the Neil Young show at the JLC. Looking forward to it.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

bryanc said:


> One of the things that struck me as counter-intuitive about becoming vegetarian, was how it dramatically broadened my culinary palette. It struck me as odd that removing something from my diet (especially something that had made up so significant a portion), would so radically _increase_ the diversity and enjoyment of the food I ate.
> 
> Before I quit eating meat, I had never tried Ethiopian, East or West Indian, or much Thai food. And my knowledge of Chinese food was 'sweet & sour pork.' There is so much great food out there to be experienced, that one certainly doesn't need to kill a lot of animals to eat something different and wonderful every day.


As an avid meat-eater, I can say with a great deal of confidence that it hasn't stopped me or any of my meat-eating friends from exploring culturally diverse cuisine.

That said, you do realize that with increased farming to meet the demands of vegans' "organic" food encroaches on animal's habitats, right? So while eating animals is cruel in your estimation, forcing them to compete for an increasingly smaller, sustainable habitat, is a less direct approach that yields a similar end-result.

Just sayin'... beejacon


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

MannyP Design said:


> That said, you do realize that with increased farming to meet the demands of vegans' "organic" food encroaches on animal's habitats, right? So while eating animals is cruel in your estimation, forcing them to compete for an increasingly smaller, sustainable habitat, is a less direct approach that yields a similar end-result.


The flaw in your reasoning is the assumption that it takes the same amount of area to raise a given caloric value of animal-based foods as it does to rase the same caloric value of plant-based foods. This is wrong, by between 1 and 4 orders of magnitude depending on what plants and animals are considered.

If everyone quit eating meat, we'd be able to massively reduce the amount of land used for agriculture.

This was the first and remains the primary reason I try to minimize my consumption of meat (cruelty was and remains the third, with health being the second). To raise 100 calories of something like salmon consumes somewhere in the neighborhood of a million calories of primary (plant) production. This is because, at each level of the trophic pyramid, about 90% of the energetic value is lost.

Cheers


----------



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

I just found this interesting statement while doing some research on the topic of another thread in this forum: 

Here's an excerpt from Dr. Patrick Walsh's Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer: 

" Lately, scientists at John Hopkins have begun exploring the relationship between the prostate and seminal vesicles. What we have learned from their work is that the saga of human evolution is also a story of two male glands - both of with produce fluid that makes up semen. One gland, the prostate, is prone to cancer. The other, the seminal vesicle, is remarkably free of it. In nature, animals that are carnivores- meat-eaters like dogs and lions - don't have seminal vesicles. The only animals that have _both prostates__ and seminal vesicles _are herbivores- veggie-eating animals like bulls, apes and elephants. There is only one exception to this rule: humans. Men have seminal vesicles too. _In other words, man a meat-lover, has the makeup of an animal that should be a vegetarian._" 

While he is probably correct on the haves and have nots as far as both of the glands go, I think he may have erred with classifying an ape as a vegetarian. I always thought they did eat a little meat, when available.


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

As far as I know, the gorilla is purely herbivorous, but other anthropoid apes will occasionally eat meat (often that of other primates). However, no primates need meat to be healthy.

Cheers


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

bryanc said:


> The flaw in your reasoning is the assumption that it takes the same amount of area to raise a given caloric value of animal-based foods as it does to rase the same caloric value of plant-based foods. This is wrong, by between 1 and 4 orders of magnitude depending on what plants and animals are considered.
> 
> If everyone quit eating meat, we'd be able to massively reduce the amount of land used for agriculture.
> 
> ...


But at least with animal-based foods there are a lot of useful spin-offs such as clothing and fertilizer. Can't say the same for a head of lettuce. Heck, even Whey protein is considerable waste of resources.

If you really were concerned about energetic value, you'd stop recycling all together. :lmao:


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

bryanc said:


> The flaw in your reasoning is the assumption that it takes the same amount of area to raise a given caloric value of animal-based foods as it does to rase the same caloric value of plant-based foods. This is wrong, by between 1 and 4 orders of magnitude depending on what plants and animals are considered.
> 
> If everyone quit eating meat, we'd be able to massively reduce the amount of land used for agriculture.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the amount of water required to produce the different types of food. 

o 16,000 - 100,000 litres of water to produce 1 kg of beef 

o 3,000 - 4,500 litres of water to produce 1 kg of rice 

o 1,350 - 1,500 litres of water to produce 1 kg of wheat 

o 990 - 1,000 litres of water to produce 1 litre of milk 

o 500 litres of water to produce 1 kg of potatoes 

o 140 litres of water to produce 1 cup of coffee 
(most used during the growing, processing and transportation) 

o 25 litres of water to produce 1 litre of beer 

o 1 litre of water to produce 1 kg of vegetables 

Bryan, I am vegetarian for the exact same reasons. 

Though, I place environmental first, ethics second and health third. I cannot place the billions of animals lives ahead of mine. 

Cheers mate.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I always knew I was right drinking beer!


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

SINC said:


> I always knew I was right drinking beer!


"In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength. In water there is bacteria." - German Proverb


----------



## imobile (Oct 6, 2007)

*I'm a veggo...*



Adrian. said:


> Hey
> 
> I am a vegetarian. Not for taste reasons, I think meat tastes pretty good, but for environmental and ethical reasons.
> 
> ...



I love VEGEMITE ( made from old beer yeast) as a part of my omni diet!

And beets are great on real beef burgers too!

The Happy Little Vegemite Song

We are happy little Vegemites as bright as bright can be,

We all enjoy our Vegemite for breakfast, lunch and tea,

Our mummy says we're growing stronger every single week,

Because we love our Vegemite,
We all adore our Vegemite,

It puts a rose in every cheek!

Google the vegemite song!


Did You Know?

22.7 million jars of Vegemite are manufactured in Australia every year - that's 235 jars per minute.

30 jars are sold in Australia for every one exported.

Vegemite is in nine out of ten pantries in Australia. 
YouTube - American Girls Try Vegemite


PS ..NO snide remarks....... that is PANTRIES not P*****S


----------



## Greenman (Feb 22, 2003)

If you're interested in the current state of factory farming in the US I can recommend a good movie. It's called Food Inc and it premiered at the Toronto Film Festival last fall.

I haven't seen it in the video stores so I don't know if it's being distributed yet. Here's a link:

TakePart.com | Social Action Network | Food, Inc. | Food Industry documentary by Robert Kenner


edited; added another link

ROBERT KENNER FILMS - Food, Inc.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Greenman said:


> If you're interested in the current state of factory farming in the US I can recommend a good movie. It's called Food Inc and it premiered at the Toronto Film Festival last fall.
> 
> I haven't seen it in the video stores so I don't know if it's being distributed yet. Here's a link:
> 
> TakePart.com | Social Action Network | Food, Inc. | Food Industry documentary by Robert Kenner


Hey, thanks Greenman, I'll check it out!


----------



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

SINC said:


> I always knew I was right drinking beer!


*BONK*!
(could-da had a V8!)


----------



## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> Don't forget the amount of water required to produce the different types of food.
> 
> o 16,000 - 100,000 litres of water to produce 1 kg of beef
> 
> ...


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Some facts for you, MaxPower:

Cornell Science News: Livestock Production


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

KC4 said:


> *BONK*!
> (could-da had a V8!)


I'll have you know I drink a glass of V-8 every morning, so there.


----------



## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

SINC said:


> I'll have you know I drink a glass of V-8 every morning, so there.


Mother Nature would be proud:lmao:tptptptp


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Just another reason...


----------



## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

Love Dennis Leary

I tried eating vegetarian. I feel like a wimp going into a restaurant. "What do you want to eat sir? Brocolli?" Brocolli's a side dish, folks. Always was, always will be, ok? When they ask me what I want, I say, "What do you think I want!? This is America. I want a bowl of raw red meat right now. Forget about that. Bring me a live cow over to the table. I'll carve off what I want and ride the rest home! [Making riding noises]" 
:clap:tptptptp


----------



## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

Ive Been A Vegetarian since the day I was born. The only animal products I eat are cheese, eggs, milk etc.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Adrian. said:


> Just another reason...


1/3 of deforestation is agriculture! But it's okay to destroy the rain forests for soy beans, at least the little animals won't be killed.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> 1/3 of deforestation is agriculture! But it's okay to destroy the rain forests for soy beans, at least the little animals won't be killed.


Your argument is inherently fallible.

We must grow food. It has been established that vegetables require much less energy, land and water input than animals. Indeed the American livestock-grain ratio is telling for our purposes. Yet you respond with an argument that because agriculture requires a large sum of land, it is equal or perhaps worse than raising meat for slaughter.

Indeed quite the opposite is true. That 33.3% of land would undoubtely produce much more food, or if you like, feed more people, than the 60% of the meat production would and use less resources and land while doing so. 

I still do not see your point. It is, to my knowledge, a red herring. Though I stand to be corrected on my fallacious terminology, pardon the pun.


----------



## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> Your argument is inherently fallible.
> 
> We must grow food. It has been established that vegetables require much less energy, land and water input than animals. Indeed the American livestock-grain ratio is telling for our purposes. Yet you respond with an argument that because agriculture requires a large sum of land, it is equal or perhaps worse than raising meat for slaughter.


Grab a bow and arrow and hunt your own 

Don't eat pork (except the occasional strip of bacon for breakfast), pretty much cut off red meat altogether (except the occasional craving for a good burger but it could be veggie), will eventually try to cut out poultry and completely switch to seafood.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

MACinist said:


> Grab a bow and arrow and hunt your own
> 
> Don't eat pork (except the occasional strip of bacon for breakfast), pretty much cut off red meat altogether (except the occasional craving for a good burger but it could be veggie), will eventually try to cut out poultry and completely switch to seafood.


But the seafod and the drag netting...


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Chas3 said:


> Ive Been A Vegetarian since the day I was born. The only animal products I eat are cheese, eggs, milk etc.


Do you mind if I ask how this was? What is the context of this?


----------



## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

No Problem. My Parents Previous to my birth were both vegetarians for 25 years, and when I was born they thought it was the right decision for me. Almost everyday growing up they would tell me if I want to eat meat I can, but I never would ever touch a scrap of meat. As I got older they gradually began to knock this practice off as they knew that I would never touch meat. 

My Parents still remain faithful vegetarians to this day, as does my brother. Another interesting fact that i will share is that i have never tasted or consumed any meat, hard to stomach for some of you hardcore meat eaters out there :lmao:


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

A Facebook friend sent this out today:



> *The Hunger Argument*
> 
> Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: *20 million*
> Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: *100 million*
> ...


I certainly can't vouch for all the facts and figures here, but it seemed pertinent to the discussion. If even a part of these are reasonably accurate then it's certainly an eye opener.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> A Facebook friend sent this out today:
> 
> 
> 
> I certainly can't vouch for all the facts and figures here, but it seemed pertinent to the discussion. If even a part of these are reasonably accurate then it's certainly an eye opener.


Indeed, thank you for that. Quite intriguing.

I would never post it on here because I don't want to be a propagandist but one can find on youtube videos of slaughter houses and how they treat the animals and it is quite upsetting. Quite upsetting indeed. Certainly, few humans could stomach a visual of how they kill them and how you see them fighting for their lives.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MannyP Design said:


> 1/3 of deforestation is agriculture! But it's okay to destroy the rain forests for soy beans, at least the little animals won't be killed.


Actually, most of those soybeans go towards feeding the little animals.

The problem is that to create one pound of tasty animal, you have to use several pounds* of soybeans. It's not very resource-efficient.

*I don't have the stats in front of me.


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Sonal said:


> Actually, most of those soybeans go towards feeding the little animals.
> 
> The problem is that to create one pound of tasty animal, you have to use several pounds* of soybeans. It's not very resource-efficient.
> 
> *I don't have the stats in front of me.


The stats vary, depending on the animal, and the type of feed, but it is a well established fact that feed-conversion, in any animal, is very inefficient. Therefore it is logically inescapable that eating lower on the trophic pyramid will have less environmental impact than eating higher.

Cheers


----------



## CRAZYBUBBA (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm a vegan! (Environmental, humanitarian)


----------



## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

Steve Jobs almost killed himself trying to cure his cancer with a crank diet. I'll bet he has to eat some different stuff nowadays.


----------



## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

There's nothing like a good neighbourhood butcher shop...


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Suits me to a T!


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

If people want to be vegan, good for them. 

But I can't understand "ethical" reasons. Animals are killed to support humans - not just for food. Animals were killed when you home was built, the roads you drive on were paved, the factories that produce your clothes, etc. Not only that, field animals are killed during the harvesting of wheat and vegetables.

The fact is, humans displace animals and there's no getting around it - unless you live in the forest in the trees, and grow your own food.

Note, I don't consider factory farms to be part of the ethics debate between vegans/omnivores, as omnivores are free to eat organic and humanely raised and killed animals.

As for efficiency, of eating - yep, vegetables are more efficient ways of getting nutrients than animals. No denying that. But I like variety in my diet. Just like vegans don't eat nothing but bamboo - they eat vegetables that are more and less efficient than others, I consider meat to be another variety of food - efficiency doesn't really come in to play.


----------



## CRAZYBUBBA (Jul 7, 2009)

hayesk, you seem to have an excellent understanding of the discourse and you're right, we do displace animals for everything that we do. For me, it's just a matter of living as cruelty-free as I find possible.


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

hayesk said:


> But I can't understand "ethical" reasons. Animals are killed to support humans - not just for food.


It's not black and white. Obviously we have to kill to live, even if we're vegans. But you can make choices that reduce the amount of killing you do, and greatly reduce the amount of suffering you cause.

So the ethical motivation for reducing or eliminating meat from the diet is very simple, and philosophically unassailable.



> I consider meat to be another variety of food - efficiency doesn't really come in to play.


This is like saying that because a bunch of people who walk and ride bikes everywhere are not always maximally efficient, it's okay for you to roar around in a hummer. There's a huge efficiency difference between a vegetarian diet and a meat-based diet. If you choose meat, you're being orders of magnitude more consumptive than someone who chooses plant-based food. That's all there is to it.

Cheers


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I also think that Soy products and all meat substitutes made from them are extremely unhealthy and far worse than the meat product they are meant to replace, except for the fat content.


Well, I've been vegetarian for close to 20 years now, and I very rarely eat much soy or meat substitutes. I kind of think it's a bit misleading to call yourself vegetarian and then subsist on fake-meat.... I mean, why bother? But then, I don't eat a lot of processed foods... I don't make a special effort to avoid them, but my tastes and habits lean towards whole grains, fresh vegetables, beans, nuts, eggs, some cheese, some milk, etc. 

Whether or not a vegetarian diet works for you depends greatly on how you go about feeding yourself. My boyfriend knew someone who was a very strict vegan... read labels in detail, learned about production methods and would avoid any product that used animals in any way... she was not very healthy and survived largely on popcorn. It may fit her ethical ideals, but it was not very good for her.

There is a difference in satiety between a vegetarian meal and a meat-one. I've discovered that people have slightly different meanings when they say they feel full.... a sort of extreme example, but I had a friend who didn't think he was "full" until it was actually painful to eat more.... most people feel full a lot sooner than that. 

From what I understand, being full on meat feels a lot heavier than being full on a vegetarian meal. So if you associate feeling full with that heavy feeling, it's going to feel a bit unsatisfying unless you shift your thinking. 

Now all that said, I do know that for myself, I tend to feel more energetic when I make a greater effort to consume more protein and make sure I get my B-vitamins and iron. That is a lot more effort to do on a vegetarian diet, but not impossible. 

I don't advocate any particular diet for anyone... how I eat isn't necessarily how other people should eat. But if someone chooses a vegetarian diet there are a lot of ways it can be done so that it is healthy and makes you feel good.

I do think, though, if you want to eat well as a vegetarian, you should know how to cook well. If you are not much of a cook a vegetarian diet gets boring and tasteless FAST.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Adrian. said:


> Indeed, thank you for that. Quite intriguing.
> 
> I would never post it on here because I don't want to be a propagandist but one can find on youtube videos of slaughter houses and how they treat the animals and it is quite upsetting. Quite upsetting indeed. Certainly, few humans could stomach a visual of how they kill them and how you see them fighting for their lives.


Few humans can stomach watching open-heart surgery, but those that receive it are certainly glad for it, as I am glad there are people that can humanely kill animals for me to eat, even though I don't want to do it myself.

Maybe a bit of an extreme example, but my point is that not being able to stomach something is not a reason to be morally against it.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

bryanc said:


> It's not black and white. Obviously we have to kill to live, even if we're vegans. But you can make choices that reduce the amount of killing you do, and greatly reduce the amount of suffering you cause.
> 
> So the ethical motivation for reducing or eliminating meat from the diet is very simple, and philosophically unassailable.


But you could do more, right? You could live in the forest in a tent, and reduce the killing too. I guess I'm not really against people who do it for ethical reasons, I just don't understand why they claim its about ethics given the rest of their lifestyle isn't necessarily more ethical. You have made a choice to reduce your killing of animals by x amount by not eating them. I may do the same by not buying a leather sofa. So I guess I'm not against it, I'm against those who claim to be morally superior to meat eaters because of it. Note, I'm not blaming you of holding these views.



> This is like saying that because a bunch of people who walk and ride bikes everywhere are not always maximally efficient, it's okay for you to roar around in a hummer.


Almost. I'm saying it's ok to drive around in a motorized vehicle as there are advantages for doing so. A hummer doesn't provide a motility advantage over a car. So, I'd be against the Hummer, unless the person had a real reason for doing so instead of a car.



> There's a huge efficiency difference between a vegetarian diet and a meat-based diet. If you choose meat, you're being orders of magnitude more consumptive than someone who chooses plant-based food. That's all there is to it.


Ha! That's all there is to it? I dispute "huge". It'd take me a couple of years to eat a single cow. And because I eat beef, I'm probably eating less vegetables than you are. And the manure from the cattle is used to fertilize land to grow vegetables. There's plenty of factors and compensations that must be taken into account. I agree that it's probably more efficient to be a vegetarian, but it's also more efficient to live in a tropical country than in Canada too - so should we all move? It's also orders of more consumptive to eat a variety of vegetables and grains than to search out the most efficient food and eat nothing but that too? We can always do better or worse.

Ethics is often the reason vegetarians cite, but it appears to me that it really comes down to the lifestyle they live makes them feel good. Which of course is perfectly fine.


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

hayesk said:


> Few humans can stomach watching open-heart surgery, but those that receive it are certainly glad for it, as I am glad there are people that can humanely kill animals for me to eat, even though I don't want to do it myself.
> 
> Maybe a bit of an extreme example, but my point is that not being able to stomach something is not a reason to be morally against it.


Moral arguments require continuity of principles of morality. If we understand a critical principle of our human morality and nature being compassion, then not being able to "stomach" watching how factory farms work is a clear indication of a corruption of this principle of morality. 

It is as Rousseau said, society was born with the fatal incident of humanity's recognition of compassion for each other. 

I think there is a very large difference between factory farming and killing free range/wild animals to eat. I can understand the argument that the principle of compassion is exclusive to humans, for we would have developed as vegetarians if it were not. However, humans also can reason, and reason should direct us to understand a difference between the two forms of meat consumption and production. 

Morality is a sticky thing, the only things to hold onto are principles of reason and morality.


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

First of all, a shout-out to MCB for the *hilarious* pics (and a great sig).

I have repeatedly tried to reduce my red-meat intake with limited success. Now that I live up here, the fresh seafood and high-quality chicken that is available have made this easier, but I still love me a good steak every now and again and I eat hamburgers more often than I should.

I have definitely expanded my palette as I've gotten older, and now enjoy a number of veggies I couldn't stand as a kid (particularly spinach and peppers). I think the secret has been having access to fresh foods, so I think I'd be best off in a Mediterranean type environment (and Victoria is close enough to that to do the job).

If Americans (in particular) would just cut DOWN a bit on how much red meat they require, the environmental thing would not stand up as a factor in the discussion. I'm trying to have more salmon and other fish, more spinach and other veggies, and trying (not very successfully so far) to avoid the high fructose corn syrup and other "over-processed" foods. This is really where I think westerners have gone down the wrong path, not "meat" per se.


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

chas_m said:


> If Americans (in particular) would just cut DOWN a bit on how much red meat they require, the environmental thing would not stand up as a factor in the discussion.


Um, no. It would simply be *less* significant as a direct function of how much people reduced their consumption. Indeed, if everyone reduced their consumption by 50% and the population increased by a similar factor, there would be no net difference in the environmental impact, and therefore it's importance in the discussion would not change.



> I'm trying to have more salmon and other fish, more spinach and other veggies, and trying (not very successfully so far) to avoid the high fructose corn syrup and other "over-processed" foods. This is really where I think westerners have gone down the wrong path, not "meat" per se.


From a personal health POV, this is all very good. However, you can't really choose a more environmentally damaging food than salmon (which is most unfortunate, because it is very tasty, reasonably healthy, and as a vertebrate with a relatively simple brain, relatively low on the ethical harm scale, so it is otherwise an easily justified choice). Salmon are very high on the trophic pyramid, greatly amplifying the environmental impact of their consumption. Worse, because of their ecology, the harvesting of wild salmon is extremely damaging to both costal and inland ecosystems, and the management of this species has been nothing short of a tragedy.

Cheers


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

One thing I have learned is that regardless of what you eat, a vegetarian will pick holes in your choices. Be it a salmon or whatever, they can find ways to make you feel like you are a pox on the world for your choices.

I say to hell with 'em. Eat what you want when you want in small portions and try to eat a blanced diet. Man has been eating meat since his existance on earth and always will, thus the canines. It is the fanatics that need to worry as one day we could well run out of their chosen food.

Pass the chicken and gravy would you please? Or make me a rare steak. With mushrooms and onions (that ought to satisfy those pesky veggie types).

Want to try my killer pork ribs recipe anyone?


----------



## bgw (Jan 8, 2008)

SINC said:


> Want to try my killer pork ribs recipe anyone?


Any time, man, any time...


----------



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Maybe she had to gain some weight so she could go to Weight Watchers to demonstrate how to loose the weight?


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

bgw said:


> Any time, man, any time...


Certainly. My pleasure. Here ya go:

Don Sinclair’s Sweet And Sour Ribs

2 lbs cubed spareribs (Pork or Beef)
1 jar sweet mixed pickles and brine (16 oz.) (The kind with onion and cauliflower)
3 heaping tablespoons brown sugar
1 heaping teaspoon Keen’s dry mustard
1/2 cup vinegar
1 cup flour
Cooking oil
Salt and pepper to taste

Place salt, pepper and flour in plastic bag, then add ribs a few at a time and shake to coat evenly. Brown ribs in dutch oven on stove top over high heat in hot oil to sear. When done add pickles and the brine from the jar, cover and cook at medium heat for 10 minutes.

Meanwhile mix mustard, brown sugar and a teaspoon of flour with enough water to make a smooth paste, then stir in the paste and the vinegar to the pot.

Cook over meidum heat for 10 more minutes, then place dutch oven in 325 degree oven and bake for 2 to 3 hours until very tender.

Serves 4.


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Yummy!
> 
> Can ToFu be substituted for the ribs?


Not sure MCB, never tried tofu, nor do I really know what it is other than it looks like solidified lard to me. But if it is soft and tender to begin with, the cooking time should be minutes, not hours. As I understand tofu, it absorbs flavour. And oh yeah, bu sure you dispose of the bones properly, would you?


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

SINC said:


> One thing I have learned is that regardless of what you eat, a vegetarian will pick holes in your choices. Be it a salmon or whatever, they can find ways to make you feel like you are a pox on the world for your choices.


Okay, I resent that. I have been vegetarian for most of my life, and I have never picked holes in people's choices nor tried to make someone feel like they were a pox on the world for them. If someone wants information, I'll provide it. If someone makes a statement that is factually incorrect, I'll sometimes point that out. But I don't walk up to someone happily eating a steak wrapped in bacon and tell them they are evil. 

Heck, the moment someone finds out that I am vegetarian, I make a joke about how much I miss bacon to try and diffuse some of that automatic defensiveness so that no one feels the need to tell me that they will never give up meat. That's nice. It's tasty stuff from what I recall. 

My ex-husband eats meat. My boyfriend eats meat. I don't try to force them to change their diet... when I was married, we both just made our own food and once in a while, I'd make him something he'd eat (yes, meat) and he'd cook something vegetarian for me. I had an 'orphan' Thanksgiving party for friends of mine without family in the city, and I made the turkey--I was the only person with turkey-making experience because of having my in-laws over for Christmas dinner because there was no way I was going to deny them their traditional Christmas turkey over my food choices. I've offered to cook meat for my boyfriend whenever we're having a special dinner, but he'd rather I just cook whatever I would eat rather than make 2 meals--okay, no problem, it's easier for me. 

I know there are some extremely self-righteous vegetarians out there, but I am frankly a little sick of being lumped in with them. I have been considerate of other people's food choices all my life. For this, my food choices get ridiculed, questioned and teased. I've had more people put meat in my face and make some lame joke saying "Are you SURE you don't want a bite?" than I can count--and no, I don't tell them they are bad people for eating what they do, I just say "No, thank you."

For pete's sake, there are self-righteous, morally superior, and idiotic people of all dietary choices. Don't insult on whole group just because you've been bothered by some of them... believe me, I have been on the other end of things for a LONG time, and it's no picnic either. 

Funny--my boyfriend has noticed the same thing happens when people find out that he doesn't own a car. People immediately start justifying why they have a car. ("Well, I need it for work!" or "Well, I love my car!") He doesn't care. 

Okay, I think I am ranted out for now...


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Oh, I don't eat fake-bacon. 

For one, I don't think it can be as good as the real thing. 

For two, I'm not a big fan of soy products--I eat some now and then (street vendor veggie dogs are my major vice in this area) but overall, I don't bother. 

For three, somehow I don't think that all the additives and chemicals that they must put into something that is not meat to make it look, feel, taste and smell like meat are good for you.


----------



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


----------

