# NEW macbooks & macbook pros....



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

I'm disappointed.

I'm happy about the new battery, and the speed bumps....but i really wish apple listened to the pro demographic and brought a matte screen option back to the MBP. The glass screen is just a deal breaker for me, and that's unfortunate since i think the rest of the design is great.

Also, i think swapping out the express slot for a SD card reader is a horrible decision. Most pros rather have the express slot option and shoot with compact flash cards.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Why does Apple always insist on taking important things away every time they add a feature that every other notebook at half the price already has?

These new models have some great features that I and and a lot of others have been crying for. If all they did was add these features in, things would be great. That they dropped the price is even better. But, lo and behold, it's always a bait and switch with Apple. They have to take things away. It's infuriating.

Dropping a swappable battery and the expresscard slot on the 15" Macbook Pro turned what easily could have been a huge win into an epic fail.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Compact Flash doesn't fit in ExpressCard 34 slots though.


----------



## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

I was poised to post a comment on a news site regarding the disappearance of the ExpressCard slot in favour of the SD card reader. Decided not to post since I didn't want to be one of the ever present Apple bashers; but this is a valid complaint in my eyes.

I am totally in agreement. SD card reading is nice enough but you can add an SD card reader to the ExpressCard slot for under $30. How on earth do you use an eSATA interface with a MacBook PRO now. PROs need high speed access. Can we trust Apple to continue support for anything anymore?


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

dona83 said:


> Compact Flash doesn't fit in ExpressCard 34 slots though.


yes i know, but my point was they replaced a "pro" feature with something that most pros wouldn't use (an SD card reader).


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Apple did their research and found that single digit percentages of users with MBPS used their Expresscard slot. That doesn't seem to make much sense to cater to Max 9% of users when I'm sure most MBP users can use a SD Card slot - something I never thought necessary, but once I got a card reader in my Dell 24" Monitor - I use it quite frequently. 

I myself think the new announcements today a hugely welcome - except for the lack of significant price drops in Canada. MBP Baseline dropped to $1699 USD which with current exchange is ~$1900 CAD - and the MBP is not $1899 MSRP in Canada now.  Otherwise, I think today's keynote was a knock it outta the park success.


----------



## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

I find the way they just threw the 13" unibody macbook into there Pro lineup a little bit messy, but thats just me. If they truly wanted to differentiate it from the original macbook, they probably should of brought back the black macbook in my eyes. Other than that, I think the new laptops are definitely a win, and definitely affordable enough for me (Middle Macbook Pro with 9600m Im eying you). The SD card reader actually suits my needs compared to others, but I have no idea why they wouldn't just include both.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

fyrefly said:


> Apple did their research and found that single digit percentages of users with MBPS used their Expresscard slot. That doesn't seem to make much sense to cater to Max 9% of users when I'm sure most MBP users can use a SD Card slot -


well i guess i see that as the problem. they're now cattering to the consumer market instead of the PRO one. I have no problem with that mindset for the 'macbook' line....but the macbook pro should really cater to the PRO market. 

It's simple enough to add a USB card reader on any machine. But for certain things that lack of an expresscard slot will now cripple the MBP usage.


----------



## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

I have yet to use an expresscard slot, I only ever used a PC card slot on my old windows laptops for networking/wirelessnetworking... I just dont have a use for the express card slot....

or....

it might be because I never really found anything thing for the expresscard slot let alone anything I can use.


----------



## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Its all a numbers game...what do MOST people need. Expresscard concept is interesting but to VAST majority of people its never used...at least they brought back Firewire.


----------



## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


----------



## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

The built in SD card reader's probably going to be a big plus for still photographers using digital cameras and I can understand excluding the Express card slot on the 13 inch model due to space considerations; the 12 inch Powerbook didn't have a PCMCIA slot for that reason either.

But leaving out the Express card slot on the 15 incher didn't strike me as a good idea as there are plenty of heavy pro applications that require that:

Let's take one example: Final Cut Studio 2 road systems. IOHD on the Firewire 800 and a GSpeed or Firmtek RAID on eSATA via the Express Card slot.

I imagine Pro Tools/Logic road systems are similar, with the IO box on the FW 800 and media storage on eSATA. This makes it hard to use the 15 inch MacBook Pro for heavy professional applications like Logic and Final Cut Studio 2 (and other audio/video applications where you need both a compact but fast media drive unit and a breakout box).


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Hardly see the card reader as being a big deal. I have one that I paid nothing for and a second that was under $25. 

Yes the slot will remain empty for most users but those that actually need it really need it.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Andrew Pratt said:


> Its all a numbers game...what do MOST people need. Expresscard concept is interesting but to VAST majority of people its never used...at least they brought back Firewire.


That's fine when dealing with commodity consumer PCs, but on a premium PRO Mac model, it's inexcusable. Firewire should never have been removed in the first place, and neither should expresscard on the Pros.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

spiffychristian said:


> sd card sounds like a good idea, but they should have made room for multiple types of cards.. like my hp printer.. has like 5 different options.


Yes, if they AT LEAST included a Compact flash reader instead (or in addition to) the SD reader then at least i could see some sort of logic to it.... because most high end DSLRs use compact flash....SD cards are generally for point & shoots and consumer cameras.

Anways, i just read that the 17" model still has the expresscard slot....and is also the only one which gives the option of a matte screen

It seems apple is really driving the pro market to only ONE model....which is unfortunate and a bit unfair.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

i-rui said:


> Yes, if they AT LEAST included a Compact flash reader instead (or in addition to) the SD reader then at least i could see some sort of logic to it.... because most high end DSLRs use compact flash....SD cards are generally for point & shoots and consumer cameras.


My wife's Nikon DSLR uses SD only. I was under the impression that CF was on its way out, and that SD was finally agreed upon as the standard for future cameras. What advantage does CF have anymore? The new SDs are really fast, high capacity, cheap, and I've never seen one "go bad".

Of course that doesn't address the fact that there are lots of card formats, I've got two Fujis that use XD cards. Just keeping the expresscard slot satisfies everyone, because they can use it for what ever they need.




dona83 said:


> Compact Flash doesn't fit in ExpressCard 34 slots though.


What makes you say that? There are several Expresscard34 Compact Flash adapters, we have one at work. They stick out a bit more than the flush SD models, which is not optimal, but the option is still there.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

The top end DSLR's can use UDMA CF cards.. which have the fastest write speeds out there.


----------



## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Adding a built-in flash card reader to a notebook is tricky because there are a number of formats out there. And there's also the point that Apple in the past has made an effort to cut away things like floppy drives and even the optical drive (MBA). So why the move in the opposite direction? 

To my mind, the external reader-via-USB route still makes better sense because you tend to get all the leading formats in one device for (pausing to look online)...wow...$20. Given this, I suspect that the reader was tossed in as one more feature to upsell people to the MBP. Not a huge incentive, mind you, but when you add up all the little things...(and the not-so-little things like getting a decent case that doesn't creak or develop hairline cracks)...the MBP looks quite a bit more attractive despite the price gap..


----------



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

i-rui said:


> Also, i think swapping out the express slot for a SD card reader is a horrible decision. Most pros rather have the express slot option and shoot with compact flash cards.


The 17" (which is what "pros" generally buy) has the expresscard slot still.


----------



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

bsenka said:


> Firewire should never have been removed in the first place, and neither should expresscard on the Pros.


What "pro" model Mac are you referring to that removed FW?

Also, am I the only person who noticed that Phil explicitly mentioned the expresscard slot is still on the 17" -- specifically because high-end pros still need it for audio/video?


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

chas_m said:


> Also, am I the only person who noticed that Phil explicitly mentioned the expresscard slot is still on the 17" -- specifically because high-end pros still need it for audio/video?


Nope. I already said it earlier in the thread :



i-rui said:


> Anways, i just read that the 17" model still has the expresscard slot....and is also the only one which gives the option of a matte screen
> 
> It seems apple is really driving the pro market to only ONE model....which is unfortunate and a bit unfair.


and i think Apple forcing users to upgrade to the most expensive model to get features that were available on the mid range models one year ago is a real crap way to treat their customers.


----------



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

i-rui said:


> i think Apple forcing users to upgrade to the most expensive model to get features that were available on the mid range models one year ago is a real crap way to treat their customers.


Maybe, but apparently their marketing research showed them the same thing we noticed at our store: SERIOUS PROS buy the 17" laptop, same as SERIOUS PROS buy the towers.

And they do not consider these machines to be "expensive" in the sense that you might because they use these machines to make MANY MANY TIMES more money than their cost. These are the same people who gladly pony up for the Adobe Suite or Final Cut Studio or other expensive "vertical" software and don't bat an eye, because they will have made back the cost of all that stuff before the week is out (sometimes before the DAY is out).

I think this is more a case of Apple wanting to differentiate the pros from the 'wannabes' and "pro" from "consumer" lines more distinctly than it is malice towards you.


----------



## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

Reading this thread I find myself wondering what Apple would need to do to please people. The prices on the notebooks have dropped, and the feature set has improved. It's pretty clear that the bulk of customers prefer the SD card slot-so suck it up and use a USB card reader if you must have something different. 
The iPhone is the same story-features and power have improved and the price is either cheaper or the same depending on the model.
There have been lots of ho-hum keynotes-I don't think this is one of them.


----------



## corey111 (Jul 9, 2007)

I know DSLRs use Compact Flash but a lot of new prosumer video cameras now are using AVCHD which is stored on SD HC cards, I see that as a pretty cool new feature. I have never used my express slot, it's one of those things that I've always said I would get something to put in there, but never got around to.
I welcome the SD Card slot..... however I do not welcome the new laptops in general.... only because I am bitter that I just bought a new one from Henrys 2 weeks ago.


----------



## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

I'm just kinda happy to know my unibody Macbook is a "limited issue" of sorts now...

Still would have liked the FW800, tho. 

J


----------



## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

thejst said:


> I'm just kinda happy to know my unibody Macbook is a "limited issue" of sorts now...
> 
> Still would have liked the FW800, tho.
> 
> J


Me too. Although given its limited run, I'm wondering if it's going to be harder to find a replacement battery for the model in the long run. 

About FW800: Can't say I've yet encountered a case where I found myself missing the FW on mine. 802.n moves things around pretty quickly. Not FW800-fast, but enough that I don't really think about it. And for backups, my external case supports both versions of FW and USB.


----------



## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

i-rui said:


> and i think Apple forcing users to upgrade to the most expensive model to get features that were available on the mid range models one year ago is a real crap way to treat their customers.


All depends how you look at pricing. Some will point out that cutting out some of the extras is how Apple's now able to sell a MBP for pretty much the same price as the previous alum-MB. The glossy screen hasn't hurt their sales and Apple's thinking is likely that this is something that only matters to a niche market. In business, when you find something that matters to your customers, most tend to be willing to pay a little extra to get it.


----------



## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

chas_m said:


> Maybe, but apparently their marketing research showed them the same thing we noticed at our store: SERIOUS PROS buy the 17" laptop, same as SERIOUS PROS buy the towers.
> 
> And they do not consider these machines to be "expensive" in the sense that you might because they use these machines to make MANY MANY TIMES more money than their cost. These are the same people who gladly pony up for the Adobe Suite or Final Cut Studio or other expensive "vertical" software and don't bat an eye, because they will have made back the cost of all that stuff before the week is out (sometimes before the DAY is out).
> 
> I think this is more a case of Apple wanting to differentiate the pros from the 'wannabes' and "pro" from "consumer" lines more distinctly than it is malice towards you.


The week before last, I had a real pro about to hit the road in South Africa for several months drop by to get a 17 inch MacBook Pro configured for the trip. Final Cut Studio 2 machine. Anyhow, I heard no end of complaints about the fact his company issued him a 17" machine instead of a 15" which was more desirable for lugging around all over South Africa for six months. I hear this complaint pretty frequently.

So if he isn't a real pro, who is?


----------



## Snowy (Dec 13, 2008)

I just bought a new MacBook May 31 at London Drugs.
I took it back last night (no questions asked). They have a 14 day refund policy. They will also match any competitors price, at least here in Alberta.

I did explain to them about me wanting the new MBP. LD probably wouldn't have any in for a few weeks, so I ordered one last night on line from the Apple store.
Now, just the 2-5 day wait for it.
I'm very pleased with the new price and features for the same price as my week old MacBook. I would be a wee bit cheezed if I couldn't have returned it.


----------



## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

mc3251 said:


> Reading this thread I find myself wondering what Apple would need to do to please people. The prices on the notebooks have dropped, and the feature set has improved. It's pretty clear that the bulk of customers prefer the SD card slot-so suck it up and use a USB card reader if you must have something different.
> The iPhone is the same story-features and power have improved and the price is either cheaper or the same depending on the model.
> There have been lots of ho-hum keynotes-I don't think this is one of them.


The problem for me isn't that there is an SD slot. It's that there isn't an Express Card slot. Tell me how I am supposed to access my eSATA drives from the new 15" MBP. I have a MBP now and I have eSATA drives. I switched up to eSATA because Apple was running down the path toward no Firewire. Now they are obviously keeping Firewire and have entirely no mechanism for accessing eSATA from my next logical machine.

I get that I am not the majority. The problem is that Apple is increasingly deciding for it's customers how they should do just about everything.


----------



## Suite Edit (Dec 17, 2003)

chas_m said:


> The 17" (which is what "pros" generally buy) has the expresscard slot still.





chas_m said:


> Maybe, but apparently their marketing research showed them the same thing we noticed at our store: SERIOUS PROS buy the 17" laptop, same as SERIOUS PROS buy the towers.


Wow. Is THAT ever making assumptions!

I'm a post-production supervisor & online editor - none of the editors I know have bought a 17" MBP. None. Everyone bought the 15" because of the great balance between real estate and potability. In fact, if the 13" had FW & ExpressCard, I'd be dumping my 15" for that, since I lug it around everywhere.

The newer prosumer cameras like the Sony EX3 use media that fit RIGHT IN the ExpressCard slot. No USB dongles, and you're running at the full speed of the storage devise. When you've got hundreds of gigs worth of video material, you don't want to be capped by USB's transfer rate.

There are only 2 ways around that: plug the card right into the ExpressCard slot or use the camera as a deck over FW. That sucks too, since you'd have to piggy-back onto your FW drive (only one FW jack). You could use eSATA for your external drive... but wait... now you can't because there's an SD card there!!

No matter what way you slice it, this refresh is a loss for video pros. Maybe they did their research and found photo pros out-number us 20:1... it's just too bad they had to snub us this time... we were a hard-won group of Apple fans at one point.


----------



## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

Macified said:


> The problem for me isn't that there is an SD slot. It's that there isn't an Express Card slot. Tell me how I am supposed to access my eSATA drives from the new 15" MBP. I have a MBP now and I have eSATA drives. I switched up to eSATA because Apple was running down the path toward no Firewire. Now they are obviously keeping Firewire and have entirely no mechanism for accessing eSATA from my next logical machine.
> 
> I get that I am not the majority. The problem is that Apple is increasingly deciding for it's customers how they should do just about everything.


I'll borrow from Chas_m a few posts back:

_
Obviously you're not a SERIOUS PROFESSIONAL. SERIOUS PROFESSIONALS buy the 17" MacBook Pro!_

I guess that's enough sarcasm for this morning. The last time I checked, the meaning of the word 'professional' is someone who performs a job to earn money; professionalism's never been measured by the size of your frigging laptop and Freud would have a field day with some of the posters here for that one.

Anyhow, I'm in complete agreement. I have to deal with this stuff on a daily basis and the issue of when is a professional piece of equipment not a professional piece of equipment comes up frequently. This affects non-Apple equipment too, but Apple's one of the worst offenders when it comes down to slapping a "Pro" label on something and then putting a big compromise in the design to upsell you to a higher model, even when the higher model's made less ideal by other factors. 17" MacBook Pro, the issue's size. Nobody I've spoken to wants to haul around the massive aluminum slab given a choice. And that's what's been taken away.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Snowy said:


> I just bought a new MacBook May 31 at London Drugs.
> I took it back last night (no questions asked). They have a 14 day refund policy. They will also match any competitors price, at least here in Alberta.
> 
> I did explain to them about me wanting the new MBP. LD probably wouldn't have any in for a few weeks, so I ordered one last night on line from the Apple store.
> ...


And that is why some people buy from places with no questions asked return policies...

And why some people don't buy just before Apple keynotes are scheduled even though WWDC isn't traditionally a hardware announcement session--now anything is possible. I predict new iMacs next Tuesday, an Apple TV upgrade and a new iPod Touch the following week.


----------



## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

chas_m said:


> Maybe, but apparently their marketing research showed them the same thing we noticed at our store: SERIOUS PROS buy the 17" laptop, same as SERIOUS PROS buy the towers.
> 
> And they do not consider these machines to be "expensive" in the sense that you might because they use these machines to make MANY MANY TIMES more money than their cost. These are the same people who gladly pony up for the Adobe Suite or Final Cut Studio or other expensive "vertical" software and don't bat an eye, because they will have made back the cost of all that stuff before the week is out (sometimes before the DAY is out).
> 
> I think this is more a case of Apple wanting to differentiate the pros from the 'wannabes' and "pro" from "consumer" lines more distinctly than it is malice towards you.


Chas_M. This isn't about separating the Pro's from the 'wannabes' (quite insulting by the way). This is about Apple pushing people down whatever path they choose. Apple thinks glossy is better - suck it up. Apple thinks consumers shouldn't be using firewire - suck it up (wasn't it Apple who got consumers using firewire in the first place). Oh, so you really think you need a matte screen and an EC slot, well we've got a machine for you. Don't like the fact that it's an expensive monstrosity at 17" - SUCK IT UP. So you'd prefer a desktop system, we've got those too; underpowered, crappy display or expensive, over the top. Don't like those - suck it up. This is the kind of sentiment Apple is starting to engender in it's "loyal" customer base and it's starting to show. Other companies are hovering and poaching and the more Apple clamps down, the more the customers are at least thinking about jumping ship.


----------



## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

Totally agree with you Macified... But ill never jump ship


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Ok, here is a different question. Now that the button is gone below the track pad, how do you click and drag?


----------



## Suite Edit (Dec 17, 2003)

screature said:


> Ok, here is a different question. Now that the button is gone bellow the track pad, how do you click and drag?


That was my main worry when they were first released 

It's actually really intuitive - you just press down, then drag your finger along. If you run out of track pad, just use a second finger to continue the motion.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

That's cool.


----------



## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

Darn I just remembered about the trackpad... -_-


----------



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

So in the process of the 13" Macbook becoming a Macbook Pro did it lose the awful display?


----------



## kkapoor (Jan 17, 2006)

I believe it did as per the keynote. I ordered one yesterday and it should arrive tomorrow. I will post my impressions re the display.


----------



## biovizier (Dec 21, 2005)

The word is that the 13-inch MacBook displays were already quietly bumped this spring:
13'' MacBook Screens Quietly Upgraded in April - Mac Rumors
Apple secretly updated 13-inch Unibody MacBook screens - Computerworld Blogs


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Suite Edit said:


> Maybe they did their research and found photo pros out-number us 20:1... it's just too bad they had to snub us this time... we were a hard-won group of Apple fans at one point.


But again i have to point out that by including JUST the SD slot with no CF they're not even hitting the REAL photo pro market....more of the consumer photo enthusiast.

Which i guess from a business point of view makes sense.... but i think a MUCH better solution would have been a built in multi card reader (if they were going to go that route....once again i'll reiterate my preference would have been the flexibility of the expresscard slot).

Anyways, my bigger gripe was the lack of a matte screen option on the 15". I guess i'll just grab an old refurb.


----------



## spoka123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Hey, does anyone know when the new macbook pros will be in canadian retail stores?

I purchased a macbook literally 3 days before apple revealed the new macbook pros and was hoping I can exchange my old macbook for one of the new ones... do you guys think i can get away with the 10% restocking fee?


----------



## Murph (Oct 30, 2008)

*edit - NM found my own answer!


----------



## Corvillus (Nov 15, 2007)

I'll have to agree with most of the other posters here. What Apple basically did was force video professionals to buy the 17", which yes, isn't very customer friendly. On the other hand, at the end of the day, unfortunately, Apple is a corporation, and as a result, their job is to increase profits for their shareholders. Video pros, given a distinction between buying a more expensive Apple product and accepting the compromises, buying a cheaper Apple product that doesn't quite satisfy their needs, or buying a non-Apple product, will probably grudgingly pony up the extra cash for the more expensive but less convenient product, because it's the ONLY choice they have for what they need to do. Apple knows it, and it's a big win for them and their shareholders.

As for the 13" MacBook Pro, it seems to be a fairly minor bump, basically just more ports and a better screen. I bought a unibody MacBook, and the only thing I really would like to have from that is the better screen. Come to think of it, I still haven't got that dust inside the glass issue fixed, might be time to give AppleCare a call, seeing as how they've already been putting the new displays in even on the 13" MacBook. beejacon


----------



## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

I was on the fence on buying a 15" Macbook Pro until at least after WWDC in case there was an update. I think I'll bite.

I've got a Nikon DSLR that only shoots Compact Flash, but I'm so used to using a USB dongle, that it is second nature. For right or wrong, I've associated SD with cheaper devices, but maybe that angle will change over time. I see the Nikon D80 has an SD slot, and if they can improve speeds, I'm sure will replace CF on the high end Nikons and Canons.

If I was doing video, I'd be a bit peeved about loss of the ExpressCard slot on the ideally sized 15.

Couple observations on the Macbooks:

Better gamut: Yay
No matte on the 15: Nay

The pro hasn't had a big price drop from what I can tell. Fastest 15" with fastest, largest HDD is still just over $3000 + Tax.

Quad core nehalem mobile is apparently next. I'm expecting the processor speeds and battery life to take a dive, and price of Macbooks to go up significantly, if the Mac Pros are any indication. The big question will be how much of an improvement multicore processors affect performance in Snow Leopard. There are likely NDAs on the new OS, but quite interested in seeing benchmarks between different variations of the MacPros.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

kkapoor said:


> I believe it did as per the keynote.


I just watched the macbook section of the keynote and didn't hear any mention of upgraded screens in the 13"...maybe I missed that part?

So are the HD & RAM still user accessible on the new macbooks?


----------



## kkapoor (Jan 17, 2006)

i-rui said:


> I just watched the macbook section of the keynote and didn't hear any mention of upgraded screens in the 13"...maybe I missed that part?
> 
> So are the HD & RAM still user accessible on the new macbooks?


Watch carefully and also read the info on Apple's product page for the 13" re the display.

The HD and RAM are still user accessable. The user manuals are now up on the Apple support site.

Apple - Support - Manuals


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

kkapoor said:


> The HD and RAM are still user accessable. The user manuals are now up on the Apple support site.
> 
> Apple - Support - Manuals


that must be the old manual....it says to remove the battery to access the memory and HD bay.....the new machines have the long life batteries.


----------



## ..........? (Dec 25, 2005)

Macified said:


> I was poised to post a comment on a news site regarding the disappearance of the ExpressCard slot in favour of the SD card reader. Decided not to post since I didn't want to be one of the ever present Apple bashers; but this is a valid complaint in my eyes.
> 
> I am totally in agreement. SD card reading is nice enough but you can add an SD card reader to the ExpressCard slot for under $30. How on earth do you use an eSATA interface with a MacBook PRO now. PROs need high speed access. Can we trust Apple to continue support for anything anymore?


There was never a speed boost on having a esata through expresscard slot since most esata expreecard only use the usb protocol so no difference from just plugging in the usb. Only if you bu a more expensive esata card then you would get to use firewire protocol.


----------



## kkapoor (Jan 17, 2006)

i-rui said:


> that must be the old manual....it says to remove the battery to access the memory and HD bay.....the new machines have the long life batteries.


Dude, it clearly says, Mid 2009 Macbook Pro on the support manuals page. Download and read the one specific to the computer you are interested in (i.e 13", 15" or 17"). To be exact it's on page 37 of the manual for the 13" unit.


----------



## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

kkapoor said:


> Dude, it clearly says, Mid 2009 Macbook Pro on the support manuals page. Download and read the one specific to the computer you are interested in (i.e 13", 15" or 17"). To be exact it's on page 37 of the manual for the 13" unit.


In the keynote they made no comment on a sealed-in battery for the 13" MacBook Pro. From the sounds of things they made some modifications to the existing 13" model and may have left that unit with a serviceable battery and user upgradeable RAM/HD.


----------



## kkapoor (Jan 17, 2006)

Macified said:


> In the keynote they made no comment on a sealed-in battery for the 13" MacBook Pro. From the sounds of things they made some modifications to the existing 13" model and may have left that unit with a serviceable battery and user upgradeable RAM/HD.


Apple - MacBook Pro - Features - Now there?s even more innovation.

Look down the page at the specs for the new battery (13"). 7 hrs. I believe that only comes with a built in battery. It's not user replaceable but it can be replaced by Apple. If you try and remove it yourself you break the warranty seal on the battery and thereby void your warranty for the machine. The video on that page regarding battery technology is informative and specifically mentions the 13".


----------



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

mc3251 said:


> reading this thread i find myself wondering what apple would need to do to please people. The prices on the notebooks have dropped, and the feature set has improved. It's pretty clear that the bulk of customers prefer the sd card slot-so suck it up and use a usb card reader if you must have something different.
> The iphone is the same story-features and power have improved and the price is either cheaper or the same depending on the model.
> There have been lots of ho-hum keynotes-i don't think this is one of them.


bravo! Hear hear!!


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

kkapoor said:


> Dude, it clearly says, Mid 2009 Macbook Pro on the support manuals page. Download and read the one specific to the computer you are interested in (i.e 13", 15" or 17"). To be exact it's on page 37 of the manual for the 13" unit.


yes i know thats what it SAYS - but i think they haven't updated it (or rather just ported over the old one). The new macbook pro family is supposed to have the new batteries across the line :

Apple - MacBook Pro - Learn all about the breakthrough battery

so something is not meshing.... either they DON'T have the battery or the manual isn't up to date.

Also, (not directly related to the above) when they say the displays have 60% more color gamut, i think they mean to PREVIOUS versions of the MBP...but not the previous unibody MBP....although i could be wrong.

I'm looking forward to seeing some hands on reviews.....

UPDATE - Laptop mag has an early hands on with the 13" :

Hands On with the $1,199 13-Inch MacBook Pro

It CLEARLY states it's a non removable battery, so the manual Apple has online right now is incorrect.


----------



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Suite Edit said:


> Wow. Is THAT ever making assumptions!


Not at all. I'm just passing along anecdotal evidence.

Yes, I heard people complain that the 17" was bulky/hard to carry around -- it is a factor that has keep me from ever getting one, in fact -- but that model also had all the bells and whistles that pros are loathe to give up. IME, although video types complain a lot about the weight, they also complain a lot about the 15" and how "cramped" everything feels. You can't please some people. 



> No matter what way you slice it, this refresh is a loss for video pros.


Or an opportunity to step up to a bigger, better battery life, more powerful machine (same as those of us who use MacBooks got when we wanted to continue using FW on the aluminum MacBooks). It's not like your present ExpressCard equipped machines will magically stop working or anything.

I heard this EXACT same whining when Apple changed from PCMCIA to ExpressCard. PRECISELY the same noise. So forgive me if your point is clouded in deja vu.



> Maybe they did their research and found photo pros out-number us 20:1


I would imagine that's off by a couple quantum orders of magnitude. More like 2000:1 would be my guess. Which is not me saying SD is better -- I wish they had found room in the design for both so everyone would be happy, but I think what we've learned today is that Apple may as well go with their market research, but some people are never happy no matter what they do.



> ... it's just too bad they had to snub us this time... we were a hard-won group of Apple fans at one point.


Yeah, guess you'll just have to run your Final Cut on Windows ... oh wait ... :lmao:


----------



## kkapoor (Jan 17, 2006)

i-rui said:


> yes i know thats what it SAYS - but i think they haven't updated it (or rather just ported over the old one). The new macbook pro family is supposed to have the new batteries across the line :
> 
> so something is not meshing.... either they DON'T have the battery or the manual isn't up to date.
> 
> ...


It's the exact same procedure for replacing the HDD as when the 17" with the extended battery came out in Jan. 

The previous 13" Unibody Macbook (now 13" Macbook Pro) had a latch that allowed just the bottom 1/3 of the base to be removed in order the access the replaceable battery and the HDD. Now you have to take off the entire bottom case to get access to HDD since there is no need for the latch mechanism since the battery is not user replaceable.

Watch: YouTube - Review of the new 13-inch MacBook Pro announce at WWDC 2009

In regards to the display, there are threads on macrumors.com that discuss how the display had already been silently upgraded a couple of months ago on the Unibody Macbook line.

I will be receiving mine tomorrow so I will let you know.


----------



## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

chas_m said:


> Yeah, guess you'll just have to run your Final Cut on Windows ... oh wait ... :lmao:


This is exactly the problem. Apple is getting a tad monopolistic. Leveraging the dominance to force the customer wherever Apple wants. Since you don't have a choice in the matter, take what we give you. Don't like it, too bad, it's not like can go elsewhere.


----------



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

kkapoor said:


> It's the exact same procedure for replacing the HDD as when the 17" with the extended battery came out in Jan.


Thanks for this info, I will go amend my post in another thread.


----------



## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

chas_m said:


> Yeah, guess you'll just have to run your Final Cut on Windows ... oh wait ... :lmao:


Avid's Media Composer is not only cross platform, has fairly decent media management tools built in, is field and frame accurate and broadcast safe too. Avid also provides extensive technical documentation on known bugs and known stable platforms, which Apple steadfastly refuses to do. Media Composer also retains closed captioning data on line 21 (SD) or the horizontal/vertical ancillary data fields (HD-SDI) if you're using an Adrenaline or Mojo box and punch in the embeddnxcc command into the Avid console. Final Cut, you're SOL.

From a professional's point of view, Media Composer running under XP Professional on an Avid qualified system is hands down far more stable and productive than Final Cut and my workload and that of other electronics engineering guys I know with respect to video editing systems bears this out.

Still laughing?


----------



## Suite Edit (Dec 17, 2003)

chas_m said:


> Not at all. I'm just passing along anecdotal evidence.


Forgive me if I misread, but it sounded like you were speaking in absolutes for all professionals.



chas_m said:


> Yes, I heard people complain that the 17" was bulky/hard to carry around -- it is a factor that has keep me from ever getting one, in fact -- but that model also had all the bells and whistles that pros are loathe to give up. IME, although video types complain a lot about the weight, they also complain a lot about the 15" and how "cramped" everything feels. You can't please some people.


Or there are certain trade-offs with any monitor size you choose, laptop or desktop... I don't see how mentioning the "cramped for portability" trade-off requires an arrogant "you can't please some people" response...

What I'm talking about is, for the video crowd, BASIC functionality. Not cramped screen space vs. weight. With the new lineup you HAVE TO buy a 17" model to offload footage at a decent speed or access your external RAID on the road. Not the same thing at all.



chas_m said:


> Or an opportunity to step up to a bigger, better battery life, more powerful machine (same as those of us who use MacBooks got when we wanted to continue using FW on the aluminum MacBooks). It's not like your present ExpressCard equipped machines will magically stop working or anything.


No, they won't magically stop working. But what about the next company I'm setting up an EX3 workflow for? They don't want to buy used and all the local stores are now out of stock of the previous gen... Yes, they could pay $600 more for a clunkier, faster machine, or they could just buy a $600 PC for the offloading and then transfer the data to towers later... I just can't see many production managers OKing a $3000 offloading/editing laptop.



chas_m said:


> I heard this EXACT same whining when Apple changed from PCMCIA to ExpressCard. PRECISELY the same noise. So forgive me if your point is clouded in deja vu.


Can SD run anything besides SD cards? Then it's not the same thing. No deja vu here... the move to EC may have been an inconvenience, but at worst you would have to shell out more $ for a new card.

This time, Apple has replaced an EXPANSION SLOT with a CARD READER. Want more FireWire ports? Too bad. Want a 3G modem? You'll have a dongle hanging out your USB port. Need eSATA for a RAID? Too bad. But, if you need to offload your digital photos, you're in luck! 



chas_m said:


> I would imagine that's off by a couple quantum orders of magnitude. More like 2000:1 would be my guess. Which is not me saying SD is better -- I wish they had found room in the design for both so everyone would be happy, but I think what we've learned today is that Apple may as well go with their market research, but some people are never happy no matter what they do.


You're absolutely right. They'll go with the research. I just hope that the stink made about a NO-EXPANSION PRO LAPTOP is big enough that they re-think this decision. They did bring FireWire to the 13" after all...



chas_m said:


> Yeah, guess you'll just have to run your Final Cut on Windows ... oh wait ... :lmao:


Yup, that's exactly Apple's attitude. You're stuck with us, so we can force you into obscenely expensive hardware (17" MBP) and what are you going to do about it? It's an air of arrogance that bit Avid in the butt long ago, and opened the door for Apple.

I hear Avid's working really hard to prove they aren't like that anymore...


----------



## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Amiga2000HD said:


> The week before last, I had a real pro about to hit the road in South Africa for several months drop by to get a 17 inch MacBook Pro configured for the trip. Final Cut Studio 2 machine. Anyhow, I heard no end of complaints about the fact his company issued him a 17" machine instead of a 15" which was more desirable for lugging around all over South Africa for six months. I hear this complaint pretty frequently.
> 
> So if he isn't a real pro, who is?


Complain about a pound and an inch more but not about the devices they would have to lug around as well that connect to the Card slot?


----------



## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

i-rui said:


> yes i know, but my point was they replaced a "pro" feature with something that most pros wouldn't use (an SD card reader).


Sorry if someone else already answered this further down the line...

For me the Expresscard slot is more useful since I have an Expresscard to CF card adaptor in my kit.

I guess the question is who uses which MacBook(s) and for what. In our case it is to read and transmit photographs back to the newspaper so the more built in stuff the better since you don't have to shlep or remember to have external bits and pieces.

The current majority of Pro DSLR cameras use CF cards though some have both such as the Canon 1D/1DS MK III's which have CF and SDHC slots. 

Perhaps Apple is going with the trend in the consumer market where SD is the format of choice.....

K


----------



## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

MACinist said:


> Complain about a pound and an inch more but not about the devices they would have to lug around as well that connect to the Card slot?


It's a valid complaint since there were options with respect to the size of the laptop, but not the other equipment accompanying it on the trip.

To me, it makes sense to complain about the size of the laptop since that could be changed by virtue of buying a different model. It doesn't make sense to me to complain about the size rest of the gear since nothing can be done about that, right?


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I never did find a use for that Expresscard slot.


----------



## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

HowEver said:


> I never did find a use for that Expresscard slot.


Boils down to what your needs are.....


----------



## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

Suite Edit said:


> Yup, that's exactly Apple's attitude. You're stuck with us, so we can force you into obscenely expensive hardware (17" MBP) and what are you going to do about it? It's an air of arrogance that bit Avid in the butt long ago, and opened the door for Apple.
> 
> I hear Avid's working really hard to prove they aren't like that anymore...


Oddly enough, I keep hearing those same rumours about Avid, too.




Niteshooter said:


> The current majority of Pro DSLR cameras use CF cards though some have both such as the Canon 1D/1DS MK III's which have CF and SDHC slots.
> 
> Perhaps Apple is going with the trend in the consumer market where SD is the format of choice.....
> 
> K


Now we get to the meat of the issue: Is the purpose of the 15 inch MacBook Pro to cater to upscale consumers with money to spend or to working professionals who need to buy the tools that have the functionality they require to get their jobs done? Or, alternatively, the cynical and sarcastic side of me wonders if the "Pro" badge, the feature list, and the price simply a marketing strategy designed by Apple to bump everybody up a model unnecessarily to shake more money out?


----------



## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

Amiga2000HD said:


> It's a valid complaint since there were options with respect to the size of the laptop, but not the other equipment accompanying it on the trip.
> 
> To me, it _doesn't_ makes sense to complain about the size of the laptop since that could be changed by virtue of buying a different model. It doesn't make sense to me to complain about the size rest of the gear since nothing can be done about that, right?


Perhaps there is enough variation in the lineup size wise to cover everyone? Did you forget a word in your reply?

Re shlepping stuff, guess I'm getting old so the less junk the better IMHO. In the old days to transmit photographs you took a portable darkroom which meant processing your film, then printing it with an enlarger, then sticking the print on a drum transmitter and having a team of sherpas to lug everything around.... it got a little better when Leafax came out with the Leafax 35 transmitter though the darn things weighted a ton and you still had to soup film which meant a portable darkroom.

Now you pop a card out of the camera stick it in your laptop and fire it in via the internet. So my point, I'll go for the smallest laptop that can do the job. Screen real estate is nice but if it makes the laptop to large or heavy for my backpack then that would be the first thing to get downsize since the screen size isn't as important as the weight and bulk of the thing. 

Re glossy screens, my personal preference is towards the matte screen. Glossy is nice when I'm just watching a video though the glare from room lighting really bugs the heck out of me. The glossy screens seem to have more contrast and are brighter which is handy except when our photographers make adjustments to their pix in the field that have to be fixed back at the paper because they have blown things away thinking they were helping. Calibrating doesn't seem to help a lot.

K


----------



## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

Amiga2000HD said:


> Now we get to the meat of the issue: Is the purpose of the 15 inch MacBook Pro to cater to upscale consumers with money to spend or to working professionals who need to buy the tools that have the functionality they require to get their jobs done? Or, alternatively, the cynical and sarcastic side of me wonders if the "Pro" badge, the feature list, and the price simply a marketing strategy designed by Apple to bump everybody up a model unnecessarily to shake more money out?


Interesting point, once the MacBooks went aluminum I had to wonder if the Pro version was as nessessary...

I think based on some of the comments I read on here it's some weird status symbol to have the Pro vs whatever model. I'm from the school of get the gear that does the job and who cares what the label says.

But you will always find hardware fashionistas and perhaps that is the more lucrative market which seems illogical to me but what the heck I'm no marketing guy.


----------



## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

HowEver said:


> I never did find a use for that Expresscard slot.


I use my Expresscard slot for my TM backup drive with a SSD card.
Totally unobtrusive and more importantly, portable.
This SSD card can also be used as the boot drive, for a much faster system experience.

jb.


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Can you not use a FW800 RAID solution for offloading footage? FW is also used for the majority of Audio professionals, so there's another group still satisfied. Seems eSATA junkies are the only ones pissed off by lack of Expresscard in the new Models, and like Chas_m said, it's not like the Other 2.4-2.93 Unibody models won't be sold (at least in refurb) for a LONG time and those have Expresscards. If there's another clamouring (and not here - to Apple) they'll bring the Expresscard back - it worked for FW on the 13" MBs.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

250$ for 48GB SSD?

$177 for 64GB USB memory:
Patriot PEF64GMNUSB Xporter Magnum USB Flash Drive - 64GB in Canada at TigerDirect.ca

$84 for 32GB USB memory:
Patriot PEF32GUSB Xporter XT Boost USB Flash Drive - 32GB in Canada at TigerDirect.ca

I realize they are completely obtrusive compared to the Expresscard slot.

Western Digital Passport drives are down to $100/250GB or $150 for 500GB now as well, and fit in your palm. I know you can't carry them around inside the computer like the Expresscard, but they don't take up a lot of space.

Maybe SSD will drop (more) in price soon... the boot option is cool.




jamesB said:


> I use my Expresscard slot for my TM backup drive with a SSD card.
> Totally unobtrusive and more importantly, portable.
> This SSD card can also be used as the boot drive, for a much faster system experience.
> 
> jb.


----------



## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

HowEver said:


> 250$ for 48GB SSD?
> Maybe SSD will drop (more) in price soon... the boot option is cool.


my mistake, I actually purchased my SSD from Here which is a tad better.
I did find many others, some less expensive, but a lot of them have very poor performance, USB like, and even slower speeds.

jb.


----------



## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

fyrefly said:


> Can you not use a FW800 RAID solution for offloading footage? FW is also used for the majority of Audio professionals, so there's another group still satisfied. Seems eSATA junkies are the only ones pissed off by lack of Expresscard in the new Models, and like Chas_m said, it's not like the Other 2.4-2.93 Unibody models won't be sold (at least in refurb) for a LONG time and those have Expresscards. If there's another clamouring (and not here - to Apple) they'll bring the Expresscard back - it worked for FW on the 13" MBs.


No - at first glance, it seems that's a good idea but the problem is, all of the breakout boxes use Firewire and need uninterrupted access to the computer to prevent audio or video glitches. The high bandwidth required for that means that the Firewire buss can't be split between a RAID and the breakout box. Since all the portable breakout boxes are Firewire and need the buss to themselves to work properly (or at all), that means there are two other options for media storage on a laptop: External drives via eSATA and "Macintosh HD" with the former being the industry standard and the latter a big, big no-no. That's pretty much the standard situation for laptops in the professional audio/video/film production industry.

Oddly, these are industries that Apple's courted heavily over the years. Removing the high speed expansion slot on the laptops people in these industries need to work effectively is like the Firewire issue ten months ago - bizzare and counterproductive.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Well, guess what?

Newegg.ca - Kingston SSDNow V-Series SNV125-S2BN/64GB 2.5" 64GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD) Notebook bundled accessory kit - Solid State Disks

$127* for 64GB -- not too shabby.

*You apply promotion code CEMCLTML39 after logging in and the price reduces to $127.



jamesB said:


> my mistake, I actually purchased my SSD from Here which is a tad better.
> I did find many others, some less expensive, but a lot of them have very poor performance, USB like, and even slower speeds.
> 
> jb.


----------



## Suite Edit (Dec 17, 2003)

HowEver said:


> Well, guess what?
> 
> Newegg.ca - Kingston SSDNow V-Series SNV125-S2BN/64GB 2.5" 64GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD) Notebook bundled accessory kit - Solid State Disks
> 
> $127* for 64GB -- not too shabby.


That's a SATA II internal drive, not ExpressCard like jamesB has... that would have to replace the internal HD or go in an external case to supplement... or am I missing something?


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Suite Edit said:


> That's a SATA II internal drive, not ExpressCard like jamesB has... that would have to replace the internal HD or go in an external case to supplement... or am I missing something?


Nope, I missed it.

It comes with a case to use externally though, good for quick backups.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

does anyone know if the new 15" unibody MBP has had it's screen improved (the whole 60% larger gamut) or is it the same as the previous 15" unibody?


----------



## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

i-rui said:


> does anyone know if the new 15" unibody MBP has had it's screen improved (the whole 60% larger gamut) or is it the same as the previous 15" unibody?


Mmm, 15" + 60%,
maybe they will call it a "MacBook Pro 24" :lmao:


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

*gamut* 

BTW a hi-rez 17 = 24" pixel count any ways...


----------



## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

Interesting twist regarding an Apple article on the SD slot that I hadn't considered doing.

MacBook Pro SD slot not just for digital camera cards | Laptop | MacUser | Macworld

If the Apple Netbook comes next year, who's betting the DVD drive will go, and the SD card slot will remain?


----------



## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

I love when Apple does this... hehe...

How many Pro's out there today own a 15" Macbook Pro over the 17"? And what is a Pro user versus a semi Pro user versus a Consumer? It is obvious that Apple's highest selling Macbook Pro between the 15" and 17" is clearly the 15". However, I will bet you that the sales of the 15" are far far higher for the consumer category versus the pro buyers. The 15" is the most popular in sales period. Thousands of students will be purchasing them again this year, like they do every year, on top of all other consumers. It only makes sense then to keep the 17" the way it is for now, as that makes up for a lot of pro sales, and I mean hard core pros and not wanna be pro or semi pro users . 

I also notice that there seems to be this perspective that ALL pro DSLR's only use CF cards? Lets list all the Pro cameras who use BOTH CF and SD readers? You will be surprised how many out there are on the market in the Pro category. Of course once again deciding on who or what is a Pro when it comes to cameras haha.

Plus, SD cards are not only used in the digital pic world, they can be used for other storage media, Apple even says they can be set up to use as a start up disk, so perhaps the future is changing, and we just don't know about it or see it? 

If Apple wanted to be jerks, they could have easily put in a SD slot years ago, heck even a multi slot, but they always have their reasons, unfortunately we're not Apple therefore we have to see in the next few years where this SD slot is going? 

I think everyone has their own definition of what a Pro user should be or is, to each their own. I welcome the SD slot either way. I also believe the badge of "Pro" is over rated on Apple's MacBooks, it is pure marketing hype. That could change in the future as well, who knows.


----------



## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

MacGYVER said:


> I also notice that there seems to be this perspective that ALL pro DSLR's only use CF cards? Lets list all the Pro cameras who use BOTH CF and SD readers? You will be surprised how many out there are on the market in the Pro category. Of course once again deciding on who or what is a Pro when it comes to cameras haha.


All Nikon DSLRs sold two years ago or more were Compact Flash only. In the current lineup, there are about half of their 9 models with SD support. Nikon | Imaging Products | Digital Cameras

That being said, It appears the SD slots are for the 'prosumer' DSLRs. D40s, D80s... entry level. The cameras requiring the extra speed and performance are still CF.


----------



## jayerice (Jun 29, 2007)

the new macbook pros are nice. i wish apple offered the 15" mbp with a matte finished screes as well. the glossy screen does limit what can be seen in different kinds of light. 

the sd card is a good idea too. i hardly use my express card slot.

still the best computers on the market though.


----------



## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

The trend with digital cameras both P&S and DSLR is certainly towards SD/SDHC cards. The Canon 1D's we use at work have had both for a couple of years and Canon has started the shift to SD cards with the Digital Rebel XSi that has been out for a year so Apple is betting that the trend is towards SD at least with cameras.

Many photographers have a pretty big investment in CF cards though and that would be one reason why they complain about the swap to the SD format. Granted as long as Apple keep the USB2 option we can always plug in a reader. Personally I pack one in my kit though I prefer the size of the Expresscard CF adaptor to my 25in1 reader...

As for using the term Pro, I dunno marketing probably had a lot to do with that. Though I find a lot of epuipmentistas out there who seem to need to make a fashion statement with the 'hardware' whether it's computers, cameras cars or what have you....

Kevin


----------

