# Aboriginal protest looking ugly



## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

For those who missed it, a sympathy protest has started, closing the main (read: only) train line along the Great Lakes. At least a dozen freight trains backed up. VIA is moving people around the blocks by bus, but freight can't do that, of course.
linky
Some of the analysis is sounding more than a little scary. Unlike in the Ipperwash standoff, which involved 26 people from a band of 100ish, this event has already seen more than 500 protestors at a time, and they have a pool of 20,000 to draw on. Not counting things like this sympathy protest. Scary, scary stuff.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Don't these people have jobs? I know the sterotype of Natives living off social assistance, but come on. The gov't should be taking names and cutting them off, if they have time for this, they have time to look for jobs.

But "It's our land eh" ah no it was your land about 200 years ago, sorry.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

JumboJones said:


> But "It's our land eh" ah no it was your land about 200 years ago, sorry.


That would depend on the specific treaties.


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## Eukaryotic (Jan 24, 2005)

JumboJones said:


> Don't these people have jobs? I know the sterotype of Natives living off social assistance, but come on. The gov't should be taking names and cutting them off, if they have time for this, they have time to look for jobs.
> 
> But "It's our land eh" ah no it was your land about 200 years ago, sorry.


Sounds like you know the stereotype very well. So well that it blinds you of the real issue? I grew up in the town next to the Mohawk territory in Deseronto, where protesters have blocked the railway. All natives I knew growing up had jobs and were good, hard-working people.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

JumboJones said:


> Don't these people have jobs? I know the sterotype of Natives living off social assistance, but come on. The gov't should be taking names and cutting them off, if they have time for this, they have time to look for jobs.
> 
> But "It's our land eh" ah no it was your land about 200 years ago, sorry.


wow - pervading the stereotype... 

So much for land rights....


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> wow - pervading the stereotype...
> 
> So much for land rights....


Now if property rights were in the Charter...bad Beej! Naughty poop-disturber.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. 

Disclaimer: the views presented in this post in no way represent anything about anything, as per AS directive 004.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> Now if property rights were in the Charter...bad Beej! Naughty poop-disturber.
> Sorry, I couldn't resist.
> 
> Disclaimer: the views presented in this post in no way represent anything about anything, as per AS directive 004.


Nothing like land rights in the US... and that's another discussion...

I should of elaborated on land claims and treaties signed by Natives with the government. Better Beejicon?

ps, the directive did not come from me - you just seem to follow your own


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> 1982 - CONSTITUTION ACT
> 
> The new Constitution Act is affirmed and re-patriated from Britain. It includes The Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 35 of the Constitution Act states: "The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of Aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed." Section 37, states that federal and provincial members should meet within one year to directly address issues affecting Native people.
> 
> Section 25 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms ensures that ‘existing’ Aboriginal rights are not adversely affected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms particularly those recognized by the Royal Proclamation.


Want to show me the document where the land was transferred??

Even the government acknowledges the issue



> The Grand River Notification Agreement was originally signed in October 1996 by the First Nations and municipal governments around the lower Grand River in southern Ontario, together with the federal and provincial governments, and the Grand River Conservation Authority. It was renewed in October 1998. The parties agree to inform each other, according to a specified procedure, of actions that may affect the environment (land, water or air) within the "Notification Area". *The Agreement is not legally binding.* It relies on compliance advancing the interests of the parties to the Agreement.
> 
> The Agreement provides a model for improved communication and information exchange, providing a basis for a better relationship between municipal agencies and First Nations.





> The Grand River Notification Agreement was developed as a result of three common concerns shared by the First Nations and the municipalities along the Grand River: First Nation land claims, shared concern for environmental sustainability, and a recognized need for improved information sharing.
> 
> *The Six Nations of the Grand River have disputed the sale and surrender of much of the land formally known as the Haldimand Tract, and have initiated informal and formal land claims on much of the territory.* By 1994, twenty-four claims had been registered, based mainly on alleged failure to receive proper compensation for the lands surrendered to the Crown or otherwise alienated.
> 
> ...


Operative words, *interim* and *unresolved.*

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/on/grndbkr_e.html


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> ps, the directive did not come from me - you just seem to follow your own


Muttering quietly to yourself again?  

We both appear to be a little frisky today. A hug would not be in order under the circumstances.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Eukaryotic said:


> Sounds like you know the stereotype very well. So well that it blinds you of the real issue?


The real issue is they are looking for another hand out plain and simple. How do you think this is going to be resolved? Hmm... a big fat payout.:greedy:

There are people that are hard working from all walks of life, same with the lazy, but this isn't helping the sterotype out any, and isn't making them any friends.



Eukaryotic said:


> All natives I knew growing up had jobs and were good, hard-working people.


I grew up in low income housing with a mother on disability so I've seen my share of Natives too and most had a sense of entitlement that was disgusting.


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## Eukaryotic (Jan 24, 2005)

JumboJones said:


> The real issue is they are looking for another hand out plain and simple. How do you think this is going to be resolved? Hmm... a big fat payout.:greedy:
> 
> There are people that are hard working from all walks of life, same with the lazy, but this isn't helping the sterotype out any, and isn't making them any friends.
> 
> ...


I disagree that they are looking for a payout; just want what is theirs. Also, what we are seeing has a lot of historical context.


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## MacMaster (Jan 22, 2006)

*Native Protest*

The Six Nations Council authorized the land transfer several years ago.

The Native Protesters do not recognize the authority of Six Nations Council and have stated that "Their Land" is not for sale.

The Native Protesters have demonstrated a lack of respect for the law, the environment, their neighbours in Caledonia and their fellow natives living and working in this community.

I live in Caledonia - and this is going to get ugly!


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Another consideration is that the blockades aren't on the disputed land, they're 'sympathy' blockades in areas with a much higher impact. A messy situation, but it will have to be constrained to where a dispute (credible or not, I don't know) actually exists.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Since there is progress the blockades have been removed. Doesn't sound radical - sounds like a long over due grievance is getting attention.

That said I have no idea of how the overall issue with native claims/Indian Act can be resolved.
I'm not fond of "heritable" privilege in any society but if any culture group has claim to recompense for past wrongs by the gov first nations do.

I guess I'd like to see a partnering that works but it's very difficult to offer any sort of sovereign enclave with an otherwise egalitarian society.
Needs another Joseph Brant and gov counterpart to come along and put a deal in place.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

More ugliness

500 non-natives tried to march on the native barricades. Police held them apart. Non-native protestors smashed up cop car.

Not good...


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

a) The province states that the Six Nations gave the land up in 1841
b) The Six Nations attempted to reintroduce their claim in 1999 (obviously with no success)
c) The natives, upset that things aren't going their way, disrupt the lives of those around them

Somebody needs to seriously smack down the native protesters. Everything points to them having ZERO claim for the land. Their granddaddies sold it. Sorry.

Some people need to let go of the past. The sooner the natives admit that they really are descendants of Asians who crossed the Russia-Alaska land-bridge, the better.

It has nothing to do with who was on the land first. If it was sold, then it was sold. Sure, we'll honour all treaties. That's only fair. The land is question isn't theirs.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Now the developers are blaming the Province

Yay! More unhappy people!


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/05/22/caledonia-blockade.html

Update.


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## darkscot (Nov 13, 2003)

guytoronto said:


> The sooner the natives admit that they really are descendants of Asians who crossed the Russia-Alaska land-bridge, the better.


What's that got to do with anything?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> A hug would not be in order under the circumstances.


hugs are very overrated
unless you're pamela anderson


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

guytoronto said:


> Some people need to let go of the past. The sooner the natives admit that they really are descendants of Asians who crossed the Russia-Alaska land-bridge, the better.
> 
> It has nothing to do with who was on the land first. If it was sold, then it was sold. Sure, we'll honour all treaties. That's only fair. The land is question isn't theirs.


It is all too easy to blame the natives.

Truth be known, we should all be hanging our heads in shame for the way WE have treated them for the past 200 years.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Beej said:


> http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/05/22/caledonia-blockade.html
> 
> Update.


Oh, nice. Racism in full swing. Jackasses.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

RevMatt said:


> Oh, nice. Racism in full swing. Jackasses.



So very sad.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

SINC said:


> It is all too easy to blame the natives.
> 
> Truth be known, we should all be hanging our heads in shame for the way WE have treated them for the past 200 years.


I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't done anything to them.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Yep, I've been on good terms with every native North American I know.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Yep, I've been on good terms with every native North American I know.



maybe you should be heading up negotiations


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

It's something to consider, but...I don't know all of them.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Yep, I've been on good terms with every native North American I know.


Yeah can't say I've ever personally wronged any of them either nor had my father or his father. In fact my great great grandfather married a Metis so he really liked them! 

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## trump (Dec 7, 2004)

well I got some Aboriginal blood in me (could get my status card if I wanted one) but I just can't bring myself to supporting the land claims...I just don't see it as valid


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

This thing in Caledonia is getting worse each week. I wonder how long until it gets really ugly.


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## 2063 (Nov 9, 2003)

It's clear that both within this thread and the town of Caledonia, we are witnessing some of the most blatant forms of ignorance and racism.

It is for example, ignorant, to neglect to mention or take into account the systemic and overt racism which exists within the government, the bureaucracy, the courts, and especially the land claims office. If the absurdities that have occurred in those institutions, were better known, we might see less slurs and oppressive language here in this forum.

We also have to recognize that culture doesn't simply mean a difference of language and food. Culture and ethnicity can refer to lifestyles and philosophies. It is not only racist to assign a derogatory label to Indigenous people based on ones limited experience, but also to assume that liberal society and principles are able to include indigenous rights.

If anyone is interested in this issue to the extent that they would like to learn more, there are plenty of resources which better explain this issue. I encourage you to look beyond the swath of violent and racist responses online and learn about this issue further.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Bienvenue au Canada d'Harper


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> Bienvenue au Canada d'Harper


Idiot.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ravijo said:


> It is for example, ignorant, to neglect to mention or take into account the systemic and overt racism which exists within the government, the bureaucracy, the courts, and especially the land claims office. If the absurdities that have occurred in those institutions, were better known, we might see less slurs and oppressive language here in this forum.


That's a pretty broad-based slur of government.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Idiot.


Moron


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vandave said:


> Idiot.





ArtistSeries said:


> Moron


:baby:


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Moron


Ya, let's blame this confrontation on the new federal government. That's brilliant.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Ya, let's blame this confrontation on the new federal government. That's brilliant.


Better VD, at least you are explaining your displeasure.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Someone farted in the elevator at work!!  
Bienvenue au Canada d'Harper!

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

This is one of the coldest Victoria Days I remember...
Bienvenue au Canada d'Harper!


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

'Spec gets it wrong again. 
Welcome to ehmac. 

Oh ignore toggle, why do you tempt me?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Beej: Your cruelty pushed things over the edge.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Macfury said:


> Beej: Your cruelty pushed things over the edge.


Is it cruel? Bad Beej!


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> 'Oh ignore toggle, why do you tempt me?


Do it! I dare you to....


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ravijo said:


> It is for example, ignorant, to neglect to mention or take into account the systemic and overt racism which exists within the government, the bureaucracy, the courts, and especially the land claims office. If the absurdities that have occurred in those institutions, were better known, we might see less slurs and oppressive language here in this forum.


I call BS.

If our system was as racist as you claim, then how is it that immigrants from China and India thrive when they arrive in our country? Why is it that their second generation children make it to University and become professionals under such 'racist' conditions?

There is NO shortage of opportunity for native people in this country. We need native people to take up employment in police work, social work, law, environmental studies, etc... The federal government has all sorts of employment equity programs. In addition, our universities are free for native people and the entrance standards are relaxed.

The problem that native communities face is social in nature. Alcoholism is the biggest reason why their communities are not thriving. The sooner we recognize the problem, the sooner we can fix it.

More handouts and government programs are not going to solve their problems. The native bands that are thriving have become more entrepreneurial (e.g. Okanagan bands starting wineries, other bands developing industrial parks) and have gotten away from relying on the government.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Do it! I dare you to....


I'm too scared to do it alone. :-( 

:heybaby:


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> The native bands that are thriving have become more entrepreneurial (e.g. Okanagan bands starting wineries, other bands developing industrial parks) and have gotten away from relying on the government.


Here it's Casinos and Hosting of Internet Casinos, with a side order of smuggling...
On your side, wine... glad to see the "sin" industry is doing well...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Vandave said:


> I call BS.
> 
> If our system was as racist as you claim, then how is it that immigrants from China and India thrive when they arrive in our country? Why is it that their second generation children make it to University and become professionals under such 'racist' conditions?
> 
> ...


I agree. All it takes is the trying. It's all there for anyone who wants it.

Every single one of the employees at Carley Spring come from an old time island family that has aboriginal roots. Every one of them.

I did not hire them because they are aboriginal. I hired them because i've known this family for about two decades and they are hard workers. They were also pretty close friends of mine long before I got them to sign on here.

And I'm lucky to have them.

The biggest single supermarket on this island also employs several members of this island/aboriginal family in key positions. One has over twenty five years at the place and is a very important member of their staff. This supermarket is our single biggest sales outlet.

We work and laugh and spend time with each other on a daily basis.

And, oddly enough, the fact that they are aboriginal and I am not never seems to come up.

Nor should it. This is Canada, after all.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sadly, government encourages those things they subsidize heavily--in this case, aborginal subsistence. The government agencies charged with serving an aboriginal clientele have little incentive to see their clients disengaged from the system.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

Personally, I blame reservations for keeping Aboriginal peoples in poverty. I mean, wow, when in any other situation would be tolerate such blatant segregation?

Honest to God, I don't know what the answer to native poverty and a raft of other ills, but I do know the current system ain't working.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

NBiBooker said:


> Personally, I blame reservations for keeping Aboriginal peoples in poverty. I mean, wow, when in any other situation would be tolerate such blatant segregation?
> 
> Honest to God, I don't know what the answer to native poverty and a raft of other ills, but I do know the current system ain't working.


I agree.

And the handover of wealth from Ottawa to the Chiefs simply continues the dysfunctional fiefdoms that our native reserves have become. The Big Boss only passes out the gelt to the ones he likes the best. The rest end up sucking hind tit. They live worse than in some third world countries...despite the billions of Canadian tax dollars that they get.

No wonder they drink. 

The aboriginal families that I am close to all live as regular Canadians, well away from the hideous reserves.

Mostly, they do pretty well. They earn their own money and make their own way in this world. And people respect them.

There might be a lesson in that.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Beej said:


> I'm too scared to do it alone. :-(
> 
> :heybaby:


I bet there are many things that you "do" alone
tptptptp


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> No wonder they drink.


wow, who's next?
irish, italians, ukrainians?

macnutt, just throw a dart at your dartboard of hate and see what group you are going to insult next


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> I bet there are many things that you "do" alone
> tptptptp


A bit lame, Michael. Surely you could do better than that. 

A bit of spirited debate, perhaps?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> I bet there are many things that you "do" alone
> tptptptp


:lmao: 

Mad 'Spec. Bad Beej. :love2:


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I like the "Dartboard of Hate." Isn't that a song on the new Morissey album?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Beej said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Mad 'Spec. Bad Beej. :love2:


i don't get mad
i just get even


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i don't get mad


I guess we'll disagree on that one.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I think SPECulating about the masturbatory habits of other EhMacers qualifies as somewhat mad.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> I call BS.
> 
> If our system was as racist as you claim, then how is it that immigrants from China and India thrive when they arrive in our country? Why is it that their second generation children make it to University and become professionals under such 'racist' conditions?
> 
> ...


I guess you did not get the memo...


> *Canada failing to care for poor, disadvantaged: UN report*
> Last Updated Mon, 22 May 2006 16:32:47 EDT
> CBC News
> Canada is neglecting its poor and disadvantaged, a UN watchdog group charged Monday.
> ...


http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/world/national/2006/05/22/unreport-canada.html


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> wow, who's next?
> irish, italians, ukrainians?
> 
> macnutt, just throw a dart at your dartboard of hate and see what group you are going to insult next


 It's not an insult, Michael. Just cruel reality.

And the many members of the Kitchen clan who are both my friends and my fellow workers would be the very first to tell you that this is the truth of the situation.

In fact, the youngest family member of this clan...who was also my very first employee...has chosen to take a different path. Based on what he's seen his elders do.

He is a smart young man. I wish I had a son like him. He's going places in this life. On his own terms.

As he said to me once..."you have to see and recognise a problem before you can ever begin to deal with it". He told me that he'd read that in a book... and that it really made him think. About a lot of things.

His Dad and his many uncles are an inspiration for how they've dealt with the world. But he isn't going to take that and just glide along on the their well earned respect.

He's going one better.

And I'm betting that the next generation of the Kitchen family is going to be far better for it.

The guy is a cool dude. No two ways about it.

He's also my friend.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

AS: I think your report hilights the manner in which government programs are exacerbting the problem.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Macfury said:


> AS: I think your report hilights the manner in which government programs are exacerbting the problem.


That's your take. 
The first step is admitting that there is a problem and defining what it is...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Glad to see you are beginning to see how to deal with this, AS.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> I guess you did not get the memo...


I'm glad somebody's paying the UN to point out the obvious, which is that our current system isn't working.

Increasing EI, minimum wage and social assistance isn't going to do anything when the fundamental problem lies elsewhere.

High paying jobs aren't going to be on the reserves. The good jobs are always going to be in the cities.


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

Dude, you have a dartboard of hate? ....I want one!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I have several aboriginal relatives by adoption--Mohawk and Metis. The only one having any trouble is the one who chose to return to the reserve where he was born.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Y'know, my cousins would kill me for calling them "aboriginals"--they're Indians.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> I'm glad somebody's paying the UN to point out the obvious, which is that our current system isn't working.
> 
> Increasing EI, minimum wage and social assistance isn't going to do anything when the fundamental problem lies elsewhere.
> 
> High paying jobs aren't going to be on the reserves. The good jobs are always going to be in the cities.


There was a little more to the memo... but I'm not expecting much this evening in the way of debate... I can't believe that the smarter comments have come from you this evening... :yawn:


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

« MannyP Design » said:


> I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't done anything to them.


I don't recall doing anything to them either, I find it ridiculous that billions of tax dollars go into these reserves. I;m not in anyway saying "all native people are bad" or anything like that, I work with a few natives and they are awsome, but it really seems like the reserves aren't working maybe those tax dollars would be better spent halping natives intergrate into society..


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

The reserves are a total dead end. A social cul-de-sac that isn't easily left. I doubt if any of us could stay sane in a sitation like that.

The real world is out there. It can be dealt with. Why would we even THINK to limit any single group to what amounts to be a stagnant concentration camp-like existence?

I'd prtefer to see the reserve lands divided up amongst the people who now live on them. And we should then encourage all of the residents of those archaic relics of another era that we currently call "reserves" to actively join with the rest of our modern society.

As equals.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Mrsam said:


> but it really seems like the reserves aren't working maybe those tax dollars would be better spent halping natives intergrate into society..


So you are favoring assimilation?


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

ArtistSeries said:


> So you are favoring assimilation?


Yeah basicly.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> So you are favoring assimilation?


Canada is very multi-cultural. There is plenty of room for natives to keep their identity and culture while living amongst the rest of society.


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

Vandave said:


> Canada is very multi-cultural. There is plenty of room for natives to keep their identity and culture while living amongst the rest of society.


Thats what I'm getting at -- ever been on a subway in Toronto? It isn't like if a native person rides it people are gonna stare, look down on them, think of them any differntly or treat them poorly because they're native. Canada is really culturally accepting for the most part, and I guess the point I'm trying to get across is I don't see why it's so wrong to suggest natives should assimilate.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't believe there's a huge choice outside of some degree of assimilation, unless the reserves become free-standing economic engines of growth--and not in such a way that the Canadian-sponsored system allows profits to be funneled through the few.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/caledonia-landclaim/historical-timeline.html


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.afn.ca/cmslib/general/FS-TM-e.pdf

Has it's own spin, but also has some useful information.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I see a clash of numerous basic ideals that is difficult for policy-makers to work through. Traditional way of life versus modern standards for health and living outcomes; supremacy of individual rights versus traditional forms of rules and cultural structures; economic reality (most wealth is in the cities) as VD pointed out; mobility between governance structures; providing government services to a dispersed population; validity of segregation versus the 'mosaic'; fundamental stress between bureaucratically fair processes and bureaucratic waste; and more. 

Layered on top of this are the ugly politics and easy smearing of anothers' view. Maybe what ever falls out of Caledonia will be a symbolic turning point, or just example of how quickly things go wrong.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

ALL citizens of Canada should have exactly the same rights and freedoms. We should all have the same set of responsibilities, as well.

No exceptions. Especially based on skin colour or background.

Any exception to this universal rule betrays all that we stand for. All that we collectively belive in.

No one is better, no one is worse. No one was last and no one was first.

We are all here now. We are all one people. And this is a really nice place to live.

Time we all realised that.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Beej said:


> Layered on top of this are the ugly politics and easy smearing of anothers' view. Maybe what ever falls out of Caledonia will be a symbolic turning point, or just example of how quickly things go wrong.


I think the later will be the case. Somebody is going to do something stupid and it will define the whole event.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacNutt said:


> ALL citizens of Canada should have exactly the same rights and freedoms. We should all have the same set of responsibilities, as well.
> 
> No exceptions. Especially based on skin colour or background.
> 
> ...


That sounds so socialist....


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

No, it's simple reality.

ArtistSeries...I honestly belive that what the old socialist movement and the new Conservative movement have in common is that we both belive in the very same outcome. Both groups want the same ultimate results.

A nice safe peaceful and prosperous place to live. For us and for our children. No violence. A nice comfortable life.

Where we differ is the "how to get there" part.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> That sounds so socialist....


Seems more liberal. Equal opportunity but not outcome. 

It also speaks to examining the most basic assumptions behind the current policies. Is the unspoken goal of (economically) forcing a vague cultural concept into stasis good or even feasible? Protecting a traditional way of life needs to be reexamined and considered against truly fostering cultural life, wherever it may end up. We would never expect to freeze any group's 'traditional' way of life, just keep the memories alive with literature, museums, art and the like but see where today's people go with their heritage. 

The people may go to the cities -- cities that have a proven record of maintaining multiple cultural groups with individuality and cohesion -- they may not. Heavily favouring one choice over the other warps this decision to what end?

Without solid starting assumptions/principles, you can very quickly end up with a mess that may even work against favourable outcomes, despite all the best intentions. Embedded interests are too difficult to root out and, alongside highly patriarchal guilt (it is all 'our' fault) and protections (protect 'their' culture for 'their' benefit), I'm not optimistic about this one. Very difficult and results are beyond the political cycle. Written treaties can be handled within a legal framework (they are legal documents) but that won't heal all.

What is everyone's first principle? The past, the individual, the Chief, etc.?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I have several friends around here in this semi wilderness. Some are of European descent. Some are whay we call native.

Most of the European types seem to enjoy kayaking or canoeing. Some are even avid bow hunters.

ALL of the natives that i know are deeply into basketball and, especially, hockey. None spend even ten minutes per year canoeing or hunting with a bow. They like sports. Not native ones, either.

So what is a traditional way of life? And should we be forcing any defineable group into some mould based on what we think we know of their past?

Just because it's "traditional"?

Is native fishing or hunting "traditonal"? Even when done with a modern rifle and GPS and a snowmobile or a diesel powered fibreglass boat?

Am I supposed to take up curling just because it's a "traditional" Scots game? Just because the Scots were one of the founding peoples that built this nation?

Can we not all collectively abandon these archaic notions of what's tradition....and just let everyone get on with their lives as they choose to live them?

Want to study and speak the language of your distant ancestors? Fine. No one will get in your way.

But I fail to see why the rest of us should pay for that study. It's up to you.

Should everyone in Canada chip in to pay for my study of gaelic?

Not hardly. Even though it was one of the most spoken and most key languages of very early Canada.

The past is the past. We don't live there now. Time to move on.

And it's high time we all accepted it.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> Is the unspoken goal of (economically) forcing a vague cultural concept into stasis good or even feasible? Protecting a traditional way of life needs to be reexamined and considered against truly fostering cultural life, wherever it may end up. We would never expect to freeze any group's 'traditional' way of life, just keep the memories alive with literature, museums, art and the like but see where today's people go with their heritage. What is everyone's first principle?


Tell that to the Khoikhoi....


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Vandave said:


> I think the later will be the case. Somebody is going to do something stupid and it will define the whole event.


Getting closer


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Beej said:


> Seems more liberal. Equal opportunity but not outcome.


liberal = equal opportunity but not outcome

Liberal = let me stack the opportunities and if I don't like the results, I'll change the outcome, no matter how much it costs


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Harper (and all Cons) = If I don't like the outcome, I'll just take my toys and go home and blame it on the Liberals.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> Is the unspoken goal of (economically) forcing a vague cultural concept into stasis good or even feasible? Protecting a traditional way of life needs to be reexamined and considered against truly fostering cultural life, wherever it may end up. We would never expect to freeze any group's 'traditional' way of life, just keep the memories alive with literature, museums, art and the like but see where today's people go with their heritage.


Since you did not answer my quip about telling that to the Khoikhoi....

Here we have a bunch of people telling how they would "do it" without any input from natives. Don't you think that it's up to the tribes to decide how they should proceed? There's talk about assimilation and watering down a culture. Juxtapose this against all the talk about liberating Iraq and Afghanistan and giving it back to the people - all the while forgetting that Canada is native land. 
I don't think anyone has asked for a stasis but your solution (or suggestion) that it be displaced to a museum is the equivalent of death. Cultures build upon the past and traditions have to be practised or lost to generations.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Canada WAS Native Land. It belonged to wild animals before that.

If cultural traditions can only be practised through heavy government subsidy then they cease to be traditions--it's just a government program.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> ALL citizens of Canada should have exactly the same rights and freedoms. We should all have the same set of responsibilities, as well.


You want to explain to me why the separate (ie catholic) school board is enshrined in our charter then?


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Whose bright idea was it to negotiate the natives to move off of the protest on a holiday monday when every crackpot and their brother doesn't have to go into work and has nothing better to do than to pick a fight when things were starting to get resolved.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I have no idea why the Catholic school board should receive preferential treatment. Don't agree.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

da_jonesy said:


> You want to explain to me why the separate (ie catholic) school board is enshrined in our charter then?


I'm Catholic and my kids go to the Catholic Schools but you won't get an argument from me. All parents should have choice as to where they wish to educate their children. This could be easily remedied by attaching a set amount of money per child that follows that child to the educational facility of their choice. Got a child in jewish school or other private schools, you get the same funding as everyone else.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacGuiver: I'm all in favour of education credits, though I think a provincial exam is in order to make sure we're getting value for money.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MacGuiver said:


> This could be easily remedied by attaching a set amount of money per child that follows that child to the educational facility of their choice. Got a child in jewish school or other private schools, you get the same funding as everyone else.


Unfortunately that works well for those segments of the population that have a large enough base to make that economically feasible. That approach works based on economy of scale.

For example my wife is Jain, there might be 50 Jain people (and maybe 10 kids of school age) in the entire Niagara region (this is a pretty big area). So if we wanted our kids to have a Jain education there is no way we could do that.

Maybe this is my pet peeve... I hate to see duplication in infrastructure that is publicly funded.

But I digress... I think my point is that, right or wrong Canada has a history of treating one population differently than others. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, sometimes it makes sense and some times it doesn't.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Jonesy: I don'tsee any problems with duplication, providing the duplication is funded entirely by the education credits. Like many churches now being shared by different congregations, I'll bet schools could be shared as well, with pupils sharing some common classes.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Macfury said:


> MacGuiver: I'm all in favour of education credits, though I think a provincial exam is in order to make sure we're getting value for money.


Don't want to derail this thread but I agree on the provincial standards. I have Jewish friends that pay school taxes yet send their children to private Jewish school and don't get a dime of the tax money he puts toward education. Thats not fair. 

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Jonesy: I don'tsee any problems with duplication, providing the duplication is funded entirely by the education credits. Like many churches now being shared by different congregations, I'll bet schools could be shared as well, with pupils sharing some common classes.


Again, as I said... that works great for those segments of the population where they have the density to make it economically feasible. For the lone Jewish kid in Wawa Ontario it doesn't work to well does it?

I suppose the sharing classes thing might work, however a big part of things which would be an issue would be stuff outside the class...

Kosher or Halal meals... etc... Vegetarian issues for certain Hindu's. Mixed phys ed classes.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Jonesy: Sometimes we have to accept that our choices of where we live have coonsequences. When I lived in farm country I didn't have access to a decent library or a nearby museum...but that was part of the trade-off my parents made--them's the breaks.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Here we have a bunch of people telling how they would "do it" without any input from natives. Don't you think that it's up to the tribes to decide how they should proceed?
> .....
> I don't think anyone has asked for a stasis but your solution (or suggestion) that it be displaced to a museum is the equivalent of death. Cultures build upon the past and traditions have to be practised or lost to generations.


This gets back to first principles. Is it up to the tribes or the individuals in the tribes? Very different things with different implied approaches.
....
I was throwing out examples. School programs, cultural teachings using the reserves as something other than the primary residence for the population (I think the majority have already chosen cities) and any other good ideas. There are much better ways for a culture to thrive than one that appears to be destroying it. I'm sorry I didn't provide an immediate and comprehensive list of all the possibilities. Urban community programs is another. Why not add to the list?


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Good news, finally!!

Good on the native protestors for taking the initiative. :clap:


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

RevMatt said:


> Good news, finally!!
> 
> Good on the native protestors for taking the initiative. :clap:


Yes I hope its over.
However I wonder how much of that initiative was motivated by the fact the locals had had enough and were getting severely pissed with them? I think the fact the locals confronted them over this on the weekend had much to do with the change of heart.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Being on the receiving end of racial epithets rarely makes people more willing to compromise. No, the barricade had already gone down Monday when the new round of trouble started. I think someone with a cool head managed to prevail, and they essentially decided to pretend that Monday hadn't happened.


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## 2063 (Nov 9, 2003)

Sorry I was away for the day, and clearly missed a lot.

I would like to mention that this is not our place at all as Six Nations still uphold their sovereignty, which means it's not our place to set some arbitrary or abstract principle of assimilation. They are entitled to their own culture. Assimilation is exactly the philosophy of the residential schools.

If it seems confusing this whole "how can you be part of a state, and yet maintain sovereignty" thing, is because it's plagued the identity of the Liberal nation-state since its inception, we're dealing with the same issues over and over again! While Quebec, and other instances are good examples of this conflict; indigenous peoples are the best example because indigenous rights are so particularly different than that of other culture-types.

And for the record, scrapping the outcome of the aboriginal summit, screwing up the reserve funding system, and passing the buck on the Six Nations blockade (it is after all federal jurisdiction... as in nation to nation) are all pretty good signs that things are gonna get worse for indigenous peoples under Harper


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ravijo said:


> They are entitled to their own culture.
> .....
> And for the record, scrapping the outcome of the aboriginal summit, screwing up the reserve funding system, and passing the buck on the Six Nations blockade (it is after all federal jurisdiction... as in nation to nation) are all pretty good signs that things are gonna get worse for indigenous peoples under Harper


Again, what does this assume when the people are choosing cities? Using economic levers to force them into what 'we' think their entitlement is or working with what the people are choosing? This has a lot to do with how the Federal government approaches the issue: some vague concept of what the culture should look like or enabling the people to carry-forward their 'entitlement' how ever it may end up? Different results of where Federal funding goes. 

Cultures change drastically over time, some elements hold steadfastly and some don't. Interactions with other cultures create ripple effects. Assimilation should not be mixed up with natural change otherwise you may fall into some 'freeze' traps.
.....
The Federal government was involved in the negotiations. I'm not sure what role they had in the tri-party discussions, but breathlessly jumping in front of a camera didn't seem to be included.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/10/caledonia.html

Debbie Walker, a managing producer at CH Television in nearby Hamilton, said one of the employees was taken to hospital Friday with cuts and bruises to his head, but couldn't say who was responsible. A second camera operator also suffered minor injuries after he was kicked and punched.

Ken MacKay and Nick Garbutt said they were attacked by Six Nations protesters while filming a confrontation between natives and an elderly couple in front of a Canadian Tire store.
.......

Needs to be cleared up. Assault is unacceptable.


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## MacMaster (Jan 22, 2006)

*Native Protest in Caledonia, Ontario*

This is more than an assault - this is Terrorism!

One of the important issues that was overlooked in this latest event is the fact that 14 or 15 OPP officers stood by and watched the attack on the CH-11 News Crew like it was some sort of shcool yard fight. A local resident of Caledonia caught the event on amateur video.

Last night (Friday night) the OPP showed up in full riot gear - not to arrest and remove the native protestors - but to keep the local residents of Caledonia from taking the law into their own hands.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacMaster said:


> This is more than an assault - this is Terrorism!
> 
> One of the important issues that was overlooked in this latest event is the fact that 14 or 15 OPP officers stood by and watched the attack on the CH-11 News Crew like it was some sort of shcool yard fight. A local resident of Caledonia caught the event on amateur video.
> 
> Last night (Friday night) the OPP showed up in full riot gear - not to arrest and remove the native protestors - but to keep the local residents of Caledonia from taking the law into their own hands.


Um, your post is rather one sided in favour of one group. That is as wrong as what took place during the incident you refer to, is it not?


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## MacMaster (Jan 22, 2006)

*Native Terrorism in Caledonia, Ontario*



SINC said:


> Um, your post is rather one sided in favour of one group. That is as wrong as what took place during the incident you refer to, is it not?


SINC - you would have to live here in order to witness first had the lawless actions of these protesters. Many of our good friends and neighbors from the Six Nations Reserve are totally appalled by the actions of a few radicals.

The original purpose of the native occupation of Douglas Creek Estates was to get the attention of the media and the governments to address native land claims from hundreds of years ago. Most residents of Caledonia supported the efforts of the natives to find a peaceful resolve to this issue.

Having been successful in getting the attention of the media and the governments, what is the purpose in assaulting elderly people, TV news crews, police officers, terrorizing neighborhoods with young children, vandalizing power generating stations, burning bridges and damaging public property.

According to Webster - Terrorism: To impress with terror or fear; to repress or domineer over by means of terror or fear.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

OK, did not realize you lived there, but one should be careful not to leave the wrong impression when one posts a message. I assumed all on one side were bad and that is obviously not the case from your response.

Careful wording is required so as not to make a wrong impression from we who read it.


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## MacMaster (Jan 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> OK, I assumed all on one side were bad and that is obviously not the case from your response.


SINC - Thanks to the media, many people feel that the native protesters represent ALL of our neighbors from Six Nations and that is simply not the case.

AND an equal number of people also feel that a few non-native hotheads represent ALL of the people that live in Caledonia. That is simply not the case.

Many of the young families that have lived through this 100+ day ordeal have reached a breaking limit. This has nothing to do with racism. If you back a rat into a corner it will come out fighting - it doesn't matter what color your skin is.

The OPP took an oath to serve and to protect. They have failed this community. The residents of Caledonia want nothing more than to restore the law of the land and to once again enjoy the comfort and safety of their homes, and to renew the friendships and relationships that we have shared with our neighbors from the Six Nations Reserve.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060612.wcaled0612/BNStory/National/home

.....
Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said Monday that he has had enough of the violence surrounding a native protest near Hamilton.

Mr. McGuinty said his government has lost its patience with protesters at Caledonia, where aboriginal protesters argue that a housing development sits on traditionally native land.
.....


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## ComputerIdiot (Jan 8, 2004)

Anyone care to start a pool on when the barricades will go back up?

And I heard something about a U.S. Border Patrol vehicle being stolen by the protesters ... what the heck is the U.S. Border Patrol doing in this...?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ComputerIdiot said:


> And I heard something about a U.S. Border Patrol vehicle being stolen by the protesters ... what the heck is the U.S. Border Patrol doing in this...?


http://www.cbc.ca/toronto/story/to-caledonia20060612.html

.....
In one incident, U.S. Border Patrol officers who were visiting the area to observe how provincial police were handling the standoff were swarmed by people, who pulled them out out of the car and drove off.

"An OPP officer [was] deliberately driven at by the stolen vehicle. Other officers at the scene, fortunately, pulled him to safety," Pilon said.

"The officer was hurt but treated and released. The car was recovered."
.....


Sounds like a handful of yahoos need to be arrested so that things can be settled more sensibly.


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## MacMaster (Jan 22, 2006)

*Native Protest in Caledonia, Ontario*

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has called off ALL negotiations with the native protesters until certain conditions are met.

The native protesters worked through the night to remove the barricades from the Hwy. 6 bypass around Caledonia. The bypass reopened this afternoon after some minor repairs and an inspection by the ministry of transportation.

The native protesters continue to occupy the disputed land or property development (Douglas Creek Estates), and continue to conceal the whereabouts of the 6 or 7 natives that have been issued arrest warrants in relation to last Friday's events.

My thoughts go out to the young families who's homes back onto the disputed land and have had to endure 100+ days of the native's intimidation, harassment, violence and terrorism.


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