# Daughter's University Choice ....getting closer



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Many of you promoted your Alma Maters in our previous thread.

BTW if you took the time before and any of your posts were about any of the six listed feel free to copy and paste.

http://www.ehmac.ca/showthread.php?p=173799#post173799

Now it's down to the short list. Make your case.
Arts in general.
Top student needs challenge so advanced course availability is a bonus
Exchange and foreign travel travel programs a bonus

Prefer personal experience students, grads or staff - sensible anecdotal appreciated but please say if it's third hand thanks.
Anything that stands out, good or bad - academia, campus or overall experience including the community
Email contacts appreciated.

The current short list is....

McGill
U of Ottawa
York - Glendon campus
UBC
U of Victoria
King's College University

I'm sure this could be useful to others with kids heading making choices this year or next so thanks in advance for your time and insight.....once again.

the 3 top interest are McGill, U of Vic and York >Glendon Campus only


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

Hi,

It's UVic. Not U of Vic. 

This is more of a comment on the general area rather than just the U. Graduated from UVic in 2001 in Social Work. It has a pretty campus and is well respected throughout the country, but it sure was hard to feel at home there. The west coast is very different from the rest of Canada and the problem is that the locals know it. I know a bunch of people who went there, did their degree, and got the hell out once they were done. The common complaint was if you were from somewhere other than the lower mainland or the island you were pitied. There was a constant reminder of some sort or another that Lotus Land is something special and you don't belong here. One of my professors who had newly arrived from another province brought this up in class one day and was appalled that none of the local students even acknowledge this attitude. It was an interested class.

Right now my brother in-law and his girlfriend are there and already they are feeling the burden of being from somewhere else. It is really bizarre, but it is there. How can you enjoy school and encourage self growth if you are constantly reminded that you are an outsider and don't belong? Like I say, I was not the only one who felt this and from what I am hearing it sounds like this exclusivity is still there. Now you may think that I was experiencing withdrawal from moving away from home, but I was 27 when I moved there and had been living on my own for 8 years.

As for the school, it is well respected throughout Canada and has a nice small feel to it. It is away from the downtown Victoria but has great bus service from just about anywhere and your bus pass is included in your student card. The food court in the students union building has people that actually prepare meals (!) and there is a strong preference for locally grown, organic, vegetarian type options available. The library had failing grades when I was there due to the lack of budget to buy new books. Ten years of an NDP government freezing tuition on an institution has to make its mark somewhere. You mentioned an international flavour, but I mostly remember a lot of white, middle class students with a sprinkling of Asian. If your daughter is interested in political activity then she need not go any further than Fernwood (an area of the city) to pick up on the latest protest heading to the legislature. I can't speak to co-op's or exchanges as I didn't get involved in that area.

Is UVic a good school? Yes. Would I go back? Nope. My girlfriend has a couple of cousins who are completing their PhD's at McGill and they have nothing but praise for the school. Yes, Montreal is falling apart, but McGill has that Ivy League reputation and an international reputation that UVic just doesn't have.

s.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Erindale campus, U of T
friendly, carying Profs., good social life
a very anti-U of T experience

plus your daughter can easily commute
so you can see her often
"they grow up so fast"


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

Are we entrusted with deciding your daughter's future? 

Go Massey! (NZ)


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

I attended UBC and have many friends from out of province and from in-province that attended and still attend UVic. Although I agree with mr. steevo's assessment that "the west coast is very different from the rest of Canada...", I disagree wholeheartedly with his assessment about the alienation and attitude of the locals. I myself am a transplanted Albertan and did not feel this at UBC. Others I have heard have raved about UVic. The fact that the campus is small and the city is small are both big bonuses at UVic.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

McGill was an excellent school 20 years ago, is probably still quite good (despite a well-earned rep for byzantine bureaucracy). BUT, for a more interesting and fulfilling Montreal experience, if I were entering university today I'd go with Concordia's Liberal Arts College -- tough, challenging program, will prep the student for grad school in just about any discipline outside the hard sciences. I didn't take this program personally, but have known many who did. The big virtue is that your top student will be part of a small community of other top students -- any slackers or idiots who make it in will not last long. Travel is part of the curriculum.

http://artsandscience.concordia.ca/liberal_arts_college/

As for community experience: McGill tends to be very white & upper-middle-class, Concordia is much more multicultural and demographically mixed. So the (downtown) campus isn't all limestone-and-ivy...McGill is five or six blocks away for a nice stroll, and its superior libraries are also available to Concordia students. Of course, both are in downtown Montreal, with all the good and bad that implies.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mr.steevo said:


> Yes, Montreal is falling apart, but McGill has that Ivy League reputation and an international reputation that UVic just doesn't have.


A. Montreal is not falling apart..in fact, it's currently undergoing a renaissance from what I can tell.
B. McGill is definitely considered an Ivy League university.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

IronMac said:


> A. Montreal is not falling apart..in fact, it's currently undergoing a renaissance from what I can tell.
> B. McGill is definitely considered an Ivy League university.


Well, Montreal is undergoing a renaissance AND still falling apart somewhat. The patient has been stabilized, some parts are improving, some continue to crumble. The arts, especially the culinary arts, are going through an incredible boom. The streets are still a mess of potholes and slooooow construction projects. On balance, I'd say the renaissance is the part that should be most relevant to a student.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Bah, the best university isn't even on the list. That would be my alma mater, Trent, of course . It does meet all you criteria.

From that list, I would vote McGill. Montreal is a great city, the University is highly respected. I'm not a fan of big schools, but most on your list appear to be.

UVic is a wonderful University, and the city itself isn't bad. Hrm. It's a close second, maybe a tie, in fact.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Michael - not a chance on U of T even tho Meg knows Glendale ( went there for two years for gifted student summer camp ).

Interesting info on Victoria - Megs is very adaptable to her surroundings but it's worth noting.

VERY interesting comment and insight on Concordia as a multicultural alternative to McGill. I passed that along ( I pass all the insights along BTW ). She's much more comfortable in a multi-cultural environment and McGill might be a bit TOO Ivy League for her tastes.

AutoPilot my daughter will certainly make her own choices - this has been a two-three year dialogue in narrowing down choices and it has included and will include more "onsite" visits.
The good thing is her marks from the "high rep" school she attends will get her in generally anywhere she chooses with a scholarship so the level of scholarship support offered will also come into play in the choice.
She'll be applying to those mentioned tho we may well add Concordia ( she's going to Montreal to visit McGill in a couple of weeks - it's her mother's alma mater and she's been before but this trip is specific to possible university choice ) and she'll for sure drop in to visit Concordia as well.

She has some thoughts about taking in a couple of different schools as an undergrad - once more her marks and good work habits give her a lot of choice ) and just found out that she is eligible for dual German/Canadian citizenship by way of her grandfather which opens up Germany for an exchange program at citizen costs so that's thrown another option up.

She has friends in Germany and elsewhere ( her private school is REALLY popular around the world ) and has made it a point to make friends with international students.
In return she's been to Korea at a low cost and has standing invitations for Germany and England and elsewhere which she hopes to translate into 1-2 year teaching stints after university.

I'd be curious in this exercise to hear from those that changed universities - the good or bad of it and any staff comments on how the schools view a "school hopper".

Again thanks for taking the time and I hope other parents and perhaps soon to be undergrads benefit as well from the comments.

••••

Actually Trent IS on the list but only distantly - it would be her FIRST choice if she were pursuing a biology degree which was in the cards for a bit.
She's seen the campus and Dr. Fox gave us the tour and she's been to a forensics camp there.
We both like the campus but she likes a bigger city than Peterborough.
It's not entirely off the radar tho but low probability and she will apply as she can apply to 3 Ontario schools without incurring extra cost.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

McGill is a great school. First year classes are much larger than what I'd particularly appreciate at a smaller school, but that's the first year breaks I suppose.

UVic is still a relatively young University (30+ years old), and I think it shows. My girlfriend had a horrible time with inexperienced faculty in the anthropology and classics courses she took. UBC is likely a better school out here on the west coast.

I don't quite get the outsider reference from mr.steevo. I moved here when I was 25, and I've been here nearly 5 years now. Most people I run in to have moved to Victoria just like me, from places like Ontario, Alberta, etc. I think the locals from Vancouver and Victoria love to tout the mild winters, to give em' something to be 'proud' about I suppose, but really, this place doesn't get that warm in the summer, most concerts skip the island and I miss that.

There are many different varieties of individuals to speak to here, and speaking of where you have lived in the country gives some good conversation pieces to talk about. The ones that miss the family community like the ones found in cities similar to Winnipeg as an example, are the ones that end up moving away from here after a few years. The shunning mr. steevo speaks of is what I absolutely couldn't stand about Winnipeg. I've been much happier in Victoria. Now I just need to surrender my first born so I can afford a house here...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> McGill is a great school. First year classes are much larger than what I'd particularly appreciate at a smaller school, but that's the first year breaks I suppose.


I'm concerned about that as well and it's the reason I turned down U of T - baby boomer class sizes were gigantic and Megs is very used to small classes and I'm a big proponent of that as well - I think she likes Montreal and so Concordia may well be a good alternative 

She's not into the "school reputation as stepping stone" - she could care less about that aspect. I personally think the big classes might be a complete put off for her.

Personally I think Glendon College would be a real treat for first year ( good for her French as well ) then maybe switch to Concordia or Victoria.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

I have attended classes at McGill and Concordia. Depending one what subject/major/minor she takes, she may like Concordia. There is a shuttle bus to the "second" campus for Concordia and it's much more relax than the downtown one. 
McGill is a fine school and has a good reputation that will help later on. Yes, the Ivy league aspect is there, more so if she lives on Campus or the "McGill ghetto".


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

My kid is in the same boat. Decision time is very near. She want to major in English or Journalism. Right now she has has narrowed it to OofT, York and Ryerson.


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## trump (Dec 7, 2004)

wow, me and your daughter are the same age  scary lol

U of T, UVic, and McGill are my top 3 currently (for Political Science)...but that post about UVic kinda scared me, even though I used to live in Vancouver


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

Unless your daughter is at the top of her class in marks and extracurricular activities she is not going to get to pick and choose. I have experienced this frustration twice now, where both my daughters have applied to 5 or more universities only to end up going to their 2nd and 3rd choice respectively. 

With large number of "qualified" applicants, including a large number of foreign students paying full tilt, today's universities can pick and choose students. Both my daughters had marks in the high 80's (honour roll) but they still had trouble getting in where they really wanted to study.

My suggestion is start looking and applying now, January is almost too late and it's never too early. Apply to all that she wants to go to, or the ones you want her to go to.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Note, though, that Universities can be somewhat arbitrary in their selection process.

I had a friend in high school who was looking to study pure math. Well-rounded student (our school required that), extremely high grades across the board (high 90s), involved in volunteer work and some (non-math) extra-curricular, math olympics, awards, etc. 

She was turned down by U of T. Gave her a huge laugh, since she was accepted at every program she applied to in Canada, accepted at Yale, wait-listed at Princeton, and ultimately chose to attend MIT. 

Funny things like this can happen.

By the way, MacDoc, it is possible to create a university exchange where none exists. A friend of mine ended up in Singapore for a year that way. Takes some doing, but you can make them happen if you want them. Just so you know.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Megs is very used to small classes....
> 
> She's not into the "school reputation as stepping stone" - she could care less about that aspect........
> 
> ................... then maybe switch to .......................


Given these points that you make, there are some very nice small universities down east. I have thought for some time that a reasonable approach would be to do 1st and 2nd year at a smaller university and then transfer if you feel the need. Most of these schools are venerable respected institutions and a degree from any of them is as good as anyplace else. (Unless you are going to grad school nobody cares where your degree came from anyway.) There are some programs actively seeking to attract students from outside the region. Small classes (relatively speaking: last course I taught at Carleton had 350  students, same course at UNBSJ had 30  ) and smaller and very beautiful campuses are one plus. Co$t of living *can be* substantially le$$. 

And best of all, the folk are friendly.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't remember but I think I said it before: go and VISIT, makes your choice much easier. I went to the first two (McGill & UofO). The first has given me an international network for life, the second a robust undergrad education. Depends what she wants to do with the degree. Certainly McGill is a much better job magnet, if in relative terms...

Pelao, I think you should add Ottawa/Carleton on the journalism shortlist


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Unless your daughter is at the top of her class in marks and extracurricular activities she is not going to get to pick and choose.


She is and has been in the top 2 of her class every year running in one of the tougher private schools including stuff like AP Physics and Calculus and they skipped her a year as well to boot plus has rock solid support from her school.
High 80s to high 90s in ALL courses including the APs - it's doubtful she won't get in where she wants but as mentioned weird things can happened.
She will be applying early and has a lot of help from the school as they and she have some thought of her coming back to teach after a few years "roaming".

The only problem with the down east schools is she wants a decent sized and multicultural city - even Victoria is marginal as far as size goes tho weather may go a long way and Vancouver on the weekends appeals. Halifax has some appeal - she knows the city and her friend is going there - personally I'd love to see the two of them together for first year ( what's the smaller University in Halifax?? can't recall )

Sonal that's good thought - with Megs overseas contacts she could indeed "generate" an exchange program.
She's out for experience and education as opposed to a "career goal".
She's got more confidence after we jointly decided Grade 11 would be a "load on the work to the eyebrows" year and she still cruised through it and Grade 12 we eased off a bit just to max the marks.
She's got good work habits and has been away from home lots to camps and travelling in NA and abroad but 1st year has it's pitfalls for anyone.
That said she enjoys learning, has good relations with staff and students ( handled the skipped grade well ) and enjoys the challenge.

I'm a bit worried that after the private school workload she might find 1st year a bit too easy as most of the AP courses are are first university level.

Strangely enough my son is finding high school EASIER than elementary and that's a pleasant change - he had some challenges some due to diabetes, some to moving about and much to being a late bloomer.
It's really given him some confidence :clap: after living in the shadow of his sister's success in school.

BTW thanks again do feel free to provide general insights into stepping into university either personal or your kids.

•••

Visiting campuses??.....yes I agree completely and we have done so and will do more. She just came off the University Fair to that's what prompted this post.
I'm hoping to can do the west coast this summer ....btw when is the "have to choose" deadline. ( ie SHE has to accept an offer )


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> .... ( what's the smaller University in Halifax?? can't recall )


St Mary's
there is also University of King's College attached to Dal.
and TUNS (Technical University of Nova Scotia)
and a world class design, graphic school whose name escapes me


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

York is out for a variety of reasons ( mainly size ) but Glendon is in the running.

Kings College was the Halifax school under consideration after a visit.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah but Glendon is off on it's own with it's own residence and bilingual community. Isolated but a 10 minute jump to Meg's fav haunts downtown TO. Nice mix and superb setting.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

*This was my first choice*

But I couldn't afford it. Maybe she can get a scholarship.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Macdoc, I'm curious--what school does your daughter go to? 

I'm a graduate of the private school system myself--went to Havergal. Kicked butt across the independent school debating circuit back in the day.

I took AP Calc--1st year Calc at Waterloo was still pretty brutal, but the AP course really saved my bacon. There were exactly 2 things they taught that I hadn't learned in AP, and one of them was a complicated theoretical proof that was shown to us for interest's sake.


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## ernestworthing (Jun 10, 2004)

I am a recent McGill graduate in chemical engineering. I'm currently attending graduate school at McMaster.

I hate to be contrary, but I think I ought to correct some perceptions about McGill and Concordia.



iMatt said:


> McGill was an excellent school 20 years ago, is probably still quite good (despite a well-earned rep for byzantine bureaucracy).


You're right about the bureaucracy. McGill is infamous for that.



> BUT, for a more interesting and fulfilling Montreal experience, if I were entering university today I'd go with Concordia's Liberal Arts College -- tough, challenging program, will prep the student for grad school in just about any discipline outside the hard sciences. I didn't take this program personally, but have known many who did.


Concordia has an excellent music and business program, and they do very well in subjects that are more practical in nature (which is why their slogan reads "Real education for the Real World"). In fact, in some circles, a Concordia MBA is seen to be more valuable than a McGill MBA.

It definitely has a good liberal arts program, I don't doubt that, but it suffers from lack of prestige. Most people outside Montreal have never heard of Concordia, and those who have probably don't know how good its liberal arts program actually is. This is a problem that many Concordians face when trying get jobs outside of Quebec.



> The big virtue is that your top student will be part of a small community of other top students -- any slackers or idiots who make it in will not last long. Travel is part of the curriculum.


I am not sure if that is quite the case. You could be right of course, but in the academic milieu, the general impression is that people who attend Concordia are people who didn't have the grades to get into McGill (which has the highest entering freshmen average in the country). 

I'm not saying this to disparage Concordians (many are my friends), but I'm sure most people would agree that a McGill-style education is more suited for the academically oriented, while a Concordia education is generally seen to cater to those whose skills are, perhaps, not so academic in nature. 

Depending on the program, McGill does a good deal of weeding. In my program, we started with 75 students in 2nd year, but come 3rd year, 1/3rd of the class failed out. When I graduated, the class size was only 37 (close to 1/2 the original class was weeded).



> As for community experience: McGill tends to be very white & upper-middle-class


I don't think so. Middle class, maybe, but definitely not very white. McGill has one of the most international student bodies of any university on this continent. (Princeton Review) Most people in my class had names that most of us probably can't pronounce -- my point is, McGill is culturally very diverse.

Having said that, Concordia definitely has a bigger nonwhite population. The difference is this: McGill's nonwhite population is drawn from 150 countries around the world, while Concordia's is largely drawn from Montreal's ethnic communities. So it's a different kind of diversity.

In terms of continental networking, McGill has the largest population of American students of any university in this country (because McGill is particularly aggressive about promoting itself down south, particularly in the east coast states). For the longest time, McGill was the only Canadian school that most [informed] Americans have heard of. (though nowadays the U of T and Waterloo are quite well known in tech circles, and UBC in science circles).



> Concordia is much more multicultural and demographically mixed. So the (downtown) campus isn't all limestone-and-ivy...McGill is five or six blocks away for a nice stroll, and its superior libraries are also available to Concordia
> students.


That is true. We get a lot of Concordia people in our libraries. Some of them come to check out the girls. ;-)

McGill library system (16 libraries) are decent, but not that great. It's McGill's weakest point actually.... It's better than Concordia's for sure, but not better that Toronto's, Western's or Alberta's library systems.



> Of course, both are in downtown Montreal, with all the good and bad that implies.


Downtown Montreal is very safe. If you live right smack downtown, the only thing you have to worry about is break ins.

I lived in the McGill ghetto, where break ins aren't as prevalent. Most of the apartments are very run-down compared to places in Ontario -- some people like that though... they call it character. In Quebec (like in Paris), old is good.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Points taken about the nature or diversity at McGill vs. Concordia. But note that as far as academics are concerned, my coments were *only* about the Liberal Arts College. As far as I know, it has a well-deserved rep for excellence; if Concordia is "Second Chance U" in general, I'd be very surprised if that label would stick to that particular program.

As for overall reputation, no doubt McGill is much, much more prominent. I'm not so sure that really matters for undergrad studies if a person plans to go on to grad school, where admissions people are much less likely to be swayed by a famous name and will know something substantive about relatively obscure schools and programs. Looking back with the benefit of experience, I wish I'd picked a university for a particularly excellent program, not because it was my dad's presitigious alma mater (i.e. McGill).


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

When recruiters came, I remember McGill had stuffy ones dressed in suit and ties - that was a turn off for me but not for parents. When I did attend engineering classes there, I found it ironic that the building was falling to pieces. 
My experience in both schools, I have to say that the level of teaching at Concordia was higher overall. Go figure....

Yes McGill rep is higher overall - and some of the points that ernestworthing bring up about McGill apply for Concordia (the weeding of students for example).


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

As someone who works as an administrator at one of the two MTL universities being discussed here, I am quite amused by all this.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ah the ripples that reveal...... 

Good discussion on the two Montreal choices - BIG question for Megs..... she was under the impression that Concordia taught entirely in French which she's not ready for.
Her French is okay and she enjoys it but not full time university ready.
Enlightenment please.....thanks.

••••
Sonal...... Maclachlan


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Concordia is English -
http://www.concordia.ca/


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Ah the ripples that reveal......


And my lips, they are sealed.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Yup, Concordia is mainly English, but probably has a higher % of francophone students than McGill. (Not sure about that, though.) You can definitely take French courses, or entire degrees, at either one.

And TheDoug...regardless of what's being said about your school, I don't think anybody would say that it's a bad school (whichever one it is). The point for me is that no university is best at everything; they all have their strengths and weaknesses, and it pays to investigate them in terms of what the student's interests and aspirations are. Going on overall reputation alone is too superficial, IMO.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

iMatt, not that I take exception to any of the comments, it's just that my personal rule is to separate the business and the personal, and to utter very little on such matters. 

That being said, I fully agree that going on reputation alone is superficial. When a potential student knows the kind of degree / discipline of study that suits them, they must do their research, and carefully compare schools. They must look at the academic environment, general facilities, campus / civic / cultural environment, tuition rates, student services, and so on, and make a choice that they are _comfortable_ with. No school literally "has it all". 

Additionally, instead of dwelling on whether or not studies at a given school will give them an edge over another institution when they finally hit the job market, I would say that the student must find out whether their intended course of studies (whether Undergraduate or Post-Graduate) will actually lead to the kind of career or professional marketability they have in mind to begin with. And in the end, an academically successful student possessed of drive and determination will succeed in their eventual career no matter where they studied.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Geez Doug did you scare them all away???!!!  .....

Big Bro n all


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

Scared 'em, or bored 'em silly. Either way, it's in my nature I guess.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

What? Where you expecting McGill/Concordia bashing?

MacDoc seems to want a small school - most like will end up near home.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Now prove me wrong......


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> What? Where you expecting McGill/Concordia bashing?
> 
> MacDoc seems to want a small school - most like will end up near home.


Hi,

I have to say that the best time I had was at a small college in Calgary (MRC). Small classes and smart professors who had time for individuals. That was the key. Why worry about the best university for the first two years when a great college might be right around the corner? First year bio and english is pretty much the same.

s.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I don't want anything.

Megs would like a smaller campus in a large city and close to home is entirely meaningless.... she's travelled all over the world already. It's not a factor for either of us and only Glendon is under consideration for the GTA.

Personally I think the major campus class sizes will be a bore for her after a life of small classes - one reason Glendon appealed - and the smaller Halifax campus instead of Dal.

Beyond Glendon coming up with a no-brainer offer it's very unlikely she'll be anywhere near home - and she will stay on campus first year anyway....as I say..that aspect is a non-issue.

We'll see how she likes Concordia next month when she goes to Montreal.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Geez Doug did you scare them all away???!!!  .....
> 
> Big Bro n all


I thought he made a near-perfect post. Why bother try messing with perfection? 

(Must be a McGill Man.)


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

I'd like to hear Megs response to all of this....

I see a concerned parent here, but I see that parent 'helping' make a decision that the child is going to have to *live*........

If you don't let this be the prospective student's decision...... well, you can see where this is going.....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

rgray - you are sooo wrong.

Megs sees all this, she gets my input on things like class size but it's her decision which school she ends up with and what courses she takes....period..full stop.


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## gruegoo (Dec 28, 2004)

Just out of curiosity, why no big American schools? There's a reason why Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc are considered among the best schools in the world. I had 3 friends from my highschool graduating class go to Harvard for general arts and science (now all 3 in harvard law) and quite frankly, they came out far more "educated" that we "normal folk" who went to york, UofT, etc.

Even if she doesn't care about school reputation, she'd still be surrounded by some of the most intelligent and dedicated students the world has to offer (along with snotty rich kids haha). She would also have the opportunity to meet some of the big names in every field.

How about Oxford in Englad? Friend of mine was there on an exchange for a year and loved it.

Personally I went to York Keele Campus... which I hated every day, but they were the only ones in Canada to offer my program at the time (now OCAD has it too... dammit). One thing to watch out about Glendon, it has a really highschool feel to it. I think there are only 2000 students there or something. I was there quite a bit for a few months (long story involving a girl... don't ask) and it seemed really clique-y to me. Everyone hung around in the same little groups at the same little tables in the same buildings.

One thing to always consider is finding a school that will get your daughter the best connections. Say for example, she chooses to do graduate work. Well if she had gone to a bigger name school, she probably would already have gotten to know the top professors in the field. It's all about actively networking to open doors in the future, and trust me, it works. I went BACK to school for a summer, just to network with the teachers and it immediately got me a job at an ad agency with an average wait time of 3 years to get in. It's not about the money, it's about the fact that this agency actively incubates talent.

I guess what I'm saying is, always think long term, which I'm sure you are. Networking is a hugely underrated asset in long term career and life goals.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

She's not interested in US schools tho I agree with some of your points.
She's more likely to tackle a German or other overseas institution after her first year.

She's heading to teaching so "connections" are of lesser interest from a formal career standpoint tho I know the value of university made "frendships" in the long term.

There MIGHT be some academia in her future in which case Oxford would be ideal but that remains to be seen. Academic interest for it's own sake has not "developed" yet.

She's not an "intellectual" in the "bookish" sense - She does well in school and that opens her options.

BTW what combination degree (ie English/History ) in the Liberal Arts would be in high demand for teaching positions??


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> BTW what combination degree (ie English/History ) in the Liberal Arts would be in high demand for teaching positions??


$64,000.00 question. Depending on your speciality, a job may be hard to find quickly if you're not willing to relocate far. A friend of mine completed his PhD in English this past Spring; he specialised in Romantic authors & works however he is qualified to provide general instruction in many English areas. He's applied for dozens of jobs so far, some specific to his area, some general (e.g. teaching basic College-level English) and has had only one interview. He wasn't selected. Needless to say he's not feeling very encouraged these days. It seems that the job market is saturated.

In stark contrast, another friend of mine who completed his Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctoral studies in Education and Educational Technology, landed a plum professorial position at the University of Maine before his Doctoral Thesis was even defended. He's been there for five years now, is earning a _reallllllly_ nice salary, and is tenure-track.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> BTW what combination degree (ie English/History ) in the Liberal Arts would be in high demand for teaching positions??


Why not a teaching degree?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Oh she will do teachers college but if you refer to a degree in education as a major - I don't think she has considered it. Might be worth a chat tho
She IS aware she needs a good second that English alone can be a liability as shown to perhaps not overseas.

••

That's good info Doug and I'll pass it along. Certainly a post grad would help if she wants to teach private school.


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## sweetymac (Sep 14, 2005)

MacDoc, I think it is really great that you are helping your daughter in her decision in choosing a good university. Lots of people don't really think about these things until much later or not at all, and they can suffer a lot at the end. I am 23 years old and have attended 2 universities and 2 colleges: University of Alberta, Ryerson University, Kings College University and Grant Macewan. I think that each had good qualities. For me going to Grant Macewan and King's first gave me an opportunity in a small classroom setting, I really liked that, it was not overwhelming and easier to talk to people. When I did go to University it was a bigger classroom setting in certain classes like 400 kids, and I felt like a number, whereas in college most of the teachers knew me by my name. But not all courses at University have huge classroom sizes, I also got to take courses which were much smaller but many of the core courses needed to graduate were larger. Kings College is a great University, at first I felt because I was not Christian they would preach to me and it would all be about Christianity, I was suprised to see this was not true at all. I was the 3rd person in my family to attend Kings College, both of my older brothers went there to start off with and one got his Masters in Environmental Science later at York University and the other got his Masters in Buisness and Agricultural Buisness Management at University of Alberta. So if your daughter does go to a college, she can always transfer later if she does not feel she wants to graduate and get a degree there, most of the courses transfer usually. The reason I did not graduate from Kings College is because I felt they did not have a variety of courses I wished to take, for example for second languages here in Edmonton they only had 2-3 choices, and their sociology courses were also not diverse enough for me so I chose University of Alberta to graduate from. I know a lot of people just want the schools name and do not care so much about if they will enjoy it, many of my friends regretted going straight to University and wished they would have tried college, because both colleges I went to had professors who taught at University so it was like we were getting University level learning in a smaller setting. If your daughter does enjoy smaller settings in a classroom I think she probably would have more fun at a college like Kings or Concordia.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Thanks - we've been chit chatting for this for many years once we realized her skill set - we tried for Lester B Pearson but because she only wanted one year that was a low probability anyway tho it would have been an excellent segue into U of Victoria.

Thanks for the insight - being a peripatetic scholar hearkens back to the early days of learning and certainly most universities are havens for the stranger from another country.

She''s done so much travelling it's really in her blood so I suspect she may well bounce around and even overseas in her undergrad venture.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Okay down to the crunch now so I revived the thread ( I assume some others might have kids in the same position - feel free to jump in on other schools etc. )

*University of Ottawa* is really wooing her - fast acceptance, excellent scholarship offer already topped off with a second one and a personal invitation to Alan Rock's speech at the Mars centre last week. ( she loved it and enjoyed meeting the University staff ).

Sure would like to hear from U of O undergrads or grads as that's now become first choice tho McGill and Glendon are still potentials. ( accepted at both and scholarship for Glendon but not as good as Ottawa, waiting on the mail for McGill details ).

Pluses for Ottawa

Cost of living seems lower than Montreal
Winter drier
Really getting the red carpet laid out
Close to Montreal and not as far to Toronto.
Has friends and contacts in Ottawa
Excellent co-op program she has been accepted to.
She has a friend going she could share an apartment with ( yes she's mature enough for this ).
Lots of summer jobs with the gov and of course the co-op comes into play.

Glendon we know and she'd enjoy it and do well but McGill or U of O are more likley choices.

She likes the McGill campus and Montreal but the campaigning by Ottawa has it's effect - nice to be wanted instead of a number. March in Montreal did NOT inspire her ( damp and cold ) so she understood waht I was talking about when I said she might not like the winter there compared to the drier Ottawa cold.

She's heading to Ottawa next week to check things out more thoroughly.

Comments welcome on all three choices - McGill and U of O in particular appreciated. TIA

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*THIS IS A REVIVED THREAD - NOTE THE DATES.* on this post versus the previous one. That was last October at the beginning of the school year.
She has NOW been accepted into all the schools she applied for - so now it's down to a small choice.


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## Jacklar (Jul 23, 2005)

niiice two bedroom apartment.. I only wish. 

Ottawa is a great city, I'm sure she'll love it.

I didn't read through everything, what program is she in MacDoc?

I'm at Carleton and have friends at Ottawa U and they seem to love it just as much as I'm loving Carleton. Unless shes taking Poli Sci or Journalism, OttawaU is a great school. Finishing first year and I love Ottawa its big enough to have fun but small enough to not have the large problems of a huge city. OttawaU location is great nice and close to everything.

She should have alot of fun there, hopefully she enjoys Ottawa.


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## Ariell (Mar 28, 2005)

ernestworthing said:


> I am not sure if that is quite the case. You could be right of course, but in the academic milieu, the general impression is that people who attend Concordia are people who didn't have the grades to get into McGill (which has the highest entering freshmen average in the country).
> 
> I'm not saying this to disparage Concordians (many are my friends), but I'm sure most people would agree that a McGill-style education is more suited for the academically oriented, while a Concordia education is generally seen to cater to those whose skills are, perhaps, not so academic in nature.



I can second that. And I went to Concordia! Yes, it does have a rep as being the place you go to when you didn't get into McGill. Just like York has the rep of being the school you go to because you couldn't get into U of T. Sorry, no offence to anyone, but it's true. 

In my case, as sounds like is the case with your daughter, I didn't care about reputation. I thought schools like McGill and U of T were way too snobby and therefore beneath me, so even though I got into U of T and every other school I applied to, I opted to go to York and later transfered to Concordia (No issues with transfering by the way. In fact, Concordia has a semester system so I was able to start in January instead of waiting until Sept.)

I went to an all girls' private school and was also in the top of my class and looking back I think my choices were a bit of a rebellion against that pereived snobbiness and what was expected of me. Your daughter may not care about reputation _now_, but the people reviewing her resume after the fact will. Or the panel deciding whether she gets into grad school. Having been in the position to hire people, no, what school someone went to is not THE deciding factor by any means but it definitely factors in to a certain extent. And I had a harder time getting into grad school compared to my friends who went to U of T. 

So just a bit of a cautionary tale -- if your daughter has the grades to get into a more academically based school like McGill, she should definitely go for that. I have no regrets about York because I had some great experiences there but given the choice over again of McGill vs. Concordia, I would definitely, hands-down opt for McGill.

I later went on to do a 2nd degree at U of T and to be honest, the calibre of classes at Concordia vs. U of T just did not compare.

As others have said, Montreal is a fantastic city. I loved every minute of it there and came back to T.O. kicking and screaming (Only came back because it was too hard finding a job -- well, other than waitressing and selling shoes -- because I was not fully bilingual. Another topic in itself.) 

McGill also has much more of a sense of community than does Concordia. I thought the downtown Concordia campus was just awful! A very very ugly main building right on a main street with no green space and lots of smaller buildings spread all over the downtown core. Very disjointed. There was just no sense of being part of a university environment. It was very strange walking out of class and being in the middle of downtown traffic. I found it hard to meet people. Yes, Loyola is a much nicer campus, but I found the commute in that rickety old bus a bit of a pain. (This was 10 years ago. Presumably the shuttle service is better.)

I'm also under the impression that schools like U of T and McGill tend to offer better scholarships but I'm not completely sure about that.

A point was made earlier about more francophones at Concordia. Not my experience at all. I met none.

I can't remember -- was Queen's one of your choices? My sister went there and loved it. Great school. Great reputation. Smaller vibe and from what I could tell, a real sense of community.

Also have friends who went to UVic and loved it.

Best of luck to you whatever you decide! 

[edit] Oops, my mistake for not reading the thread through. Of course it's April and of course you would have heard from most schools by now.Didn't look at the dates and didn't realize I was commenting on an old post. Sorry. I can vouch for Montreal winters being very cold but not unbearable. I don't recall them being damp. The U of Ottawa offer sounds great.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Jacklar - thanks for the thumbs up for Ottawa. I'm not sure the exact program. One was a teaching coop the other communications.

••

Ariel - similar for my daughter, top of the class private but not all-girls. She's likely to go back and teach there after travelling and teaching.
No worry about the date thing. Others will find the info insightful.
I did the same thing many years ago turned down an overstuffed U of T ( baby boomer ) for a smaller newer ( very ) school with seminar only style teaching.
It was experimental and costly and I loved it. I still have fond memories of getting close to profs and due to class size later years seminars were often held at profs residences.
Good times and an excellent education tho not a world class degree from well known school. That's not what I was out for nor is my daughter.

Still McGill may lure her and it being mom's alma mater is no small thing ( she'll resist that out of principle tho  )

•••

Early morning update - a good nights sleep has tipped her even more toward Ottawa. Also turns out they will attempt to match any scholarship from elsewhere.
I think the coop program plus the warm welcome are the deciding factors.

now about those 2 bedroom apartments....where's the best places close to the school or transit.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Pluses for Ottawa
> 
> Cost of living seems lower than Montreal
> Winter drier


I'm surprised by the first point, but it could be true since Montreal has been booming for a few years now. I'd be really surprised if it applied to housing.

On the second point, I submit that this is probably a judgment based on pure luck (visiting Montreal during a warmish spell, and Ottawa during a cold snap). The climates are very, very similar, and I've seen plenty of January rain and slush in both places. 

Montreal may be very slightly warmer and damper on average, and Ottawa colder and snowier, but the fact is that both are rather unpleasant in winter. Lots of snow and slush. The only ways to cope are plenty of time indoors, or developing a love of skating and skiing.

As for all the rest...it sounds like Ottawa has the upper hand for some very good reasons. But IMO the decisive factor should be this: what does she plan to study? All wooing and other concerns aside, the winner should be the one with the best program in that field. Period. 

If you're having trouble deciding which is best, I suggest giving heavy weight to class size, as a good instructor with a small class trumps a superstar lecturing to the masses in my book.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ottawa's co-op program is ideal for her.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Ottawa's co-op program is ideal for her.


Then it sounds like the choice is an easy one...


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Ottawa's co-op program is ideal for her.


Yeah, it sounds like Ottawa would be perfect for her...Living near Ottawa I know a few people who go there and they all like it. The residences are really nice...I think there are some brand new buildings  Not that she should make a choice only on that, but its a nice thing. If the program is right, she likes Ottawa/the University, and was offered a scholarship, sounds like the choice is just about made!


:lmao: My university choice was pretty easy this year (much less stress than I thought!). With Queen's offer of a substantial scholarship ($48,000 over 4 years) and a guaranteed single room in residence, the choice was pretty much made for me. Queen's seems like a pretty great school...I might have chosen McGill if it weren't for the scholarship, but I plan on going to grad school or med school or something afterwards so $48,000 less in debt would definitely help.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Queen's offer of a substantial scholarship ($48,000 over 4 years) and a guaranteed single room in residenc


Now I like the sounds of those numbers 

What program are you in!!!???


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Now I like the sounds of those numbers
> 
> What program are you in!!!???


Queen's Science (first year program), looking at going into their SSP Life Sciences Program (Honours) after that...leads into all the things I'm interested in: anatomy, biology, those sort of things. Apparently it would serve as a good pre-med program (although the pre-requisites are pretty open) but also leads into lots of options for graduate studies too.

Can't wait for September!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Wow good for you - just HOW good were your grades !!!?? 

That strikes me as "all expenses paid".


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Wow good for you - just HOW good were your grades !!!??
> 
> That strikes me as "all expenses paid".


I was pretty surprised to be offered that much; my grades have hovered around a 95% average through highschool, but I was/am around a 96%-97% in grades 11 and 12 (this year). I figured these scholarships would go to the 99.9%-98% students that you read about in the newspapers and such. 

I think my volunteer services/school involvement helped too...I'm not the school council type but I participate in a few teams/clubs and have been fortunate with finding great volunteer oppurtunities.



When your daughter is considering her acceptances, be sure to check out whether or not she is guaranteed a room in residence. Pretty much all students are guaranteed a room, but it would be a real pain to find out she would need to find alternative housing (the social aspect of living in res sounds good too). 

I think she would enjoy it in Ottawa (admittedly I don't know much about her except what you mentioned in this thread) but I know a pretty varied group of kids who go to Ottawa and they all love it there. I figure that when it comes to these bigger Universities, they are all must be pretty universally acceptable, considering that 20,000+ people go there and come out loving it (for the most part).


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

She's in the 95% plus across the board from a tough private school and has good "extra stuff" including being bilingual which may pay off at Ottawa as I look at the program.
She is guaranteed a room already but will likely share with a friend off campus. Yet to be determined - likely when she gets back from a visit next week to Ottawa to check out housing and campus etc.

I noticed on the scholarship form ( there is one for $30K!! ) it called a Mar 1 deadline - since kids aren't accepted that early it sort of puzzled me. 

Well done for you sirrah. You certainly earned your way markswise :clap:
Lots of Macs at Queens too. 

My daughter is getting excited about going as well. Big desk and room clean up sort of figuring what she wants to take etc. I'm proud of her..she's done well under sometimes less than ideal single parent circumstances.... I'm a lucky dad.


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