# Design outsourcing?



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Place I used to work for years ago is now outsourcing most of their design via internet to India. Is this now common practice?


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2011)

People are outsourcing just about everything they can get away with these days from what I've been seeing. Happens a lot in the IT/programming world too, and lately I've been hearing about video stuff going the same route -- although not sure how that works if you have a terabyte worth of footage!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mguertin said:


> People are outsourcing just about everything they can get away with these days from what I've been seeing. Happens a lot in the IT/programming world too, and lately I've been hearing about video stuff going the same route -- although not sure how that works if you have a terabyte worth of footage!


I guess they'll edit anything that doesn't have kissing in it. Sounds like the only thing stopping that is the speed at which they can send the large files.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2011)

Macfury said:


> I guess they'll edit anything that doesn't have kissing in it. Sounds like the only thing stopping that is the speed at which they can send the large files.


Sadly they have better infrastructure than we do so it's the speed in which we can send the files that's the limiter. I imagine they will even edit kissing scenes .. behind closed doors of course 

There was a guy I was doing a bit of work with, he worked up this whole business plan around outsourcing, and while I won't go into specifics let's just say that he was getting the same work done, literally better quality, for < 10% of what he was paying here and it was getting done almost instantly. Not that I'm big on outsourcing but I understand why it's happening. The market over there just eats up anything it can get, does it cheap, often times very well, and incredibly fast.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I've yet to hear of people outsourcing design (but it wouldn't surprise me) however there is definitely programming outsourcing. I've seen people set up studios claiming to be one-stop shops while the reality is just a solo guy sitting in his office sending work to India and acting as liaison. The clients are completely oblivious and are still paying typical rates (more or less).

Get rich quick and let other people do the grind work for cheap.


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

I'm a designer and developer.
Like Manny, I've seen people outsource development. Pretty much everything I've seen is crap.
As for design, they'll do the design and development together, but I haven't seen them do just design.
I haven't seen any print work either, although I have out of Hong Kong.

Hate to say it, but the people who would outsource to India are not the people I'd want to wok for anyways.


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

I may seem biased or prejudiced but most of the 'outsourced' type work seems to fall into the typical Windows type development. The mentality of "we don't care if this is actually any good, or useful, or intuitive, we just want to make money out of it and there are plenty of saps that will buy it because there is nothing better out there". In other words, it is mainly crap. Not saying that the quality of work that a developer in India is inferior, I'm saying that what they are being asked to develop is poor. It's a cheap consumable, not a high quality product. 

BTW, outsourcing is not necessarily restricted to the production of digital materials, and in the food processing area, they are making it appear that it is 'Made in Canada'. 

CBC Marketplace

If I remember that episode correctly (or it was another similar report), they also shown that some fish caught off the shores of Canada is frozen and sent to China for processing, then returned back to Canada for further processing. Chicken can also travel distances from the source, to the final production plant.

CBC Report on Outsourcing

However, and this is a something to think about. How are the Japanese workers feeling about Toyota, Honda, etc. cars being manufactured in North America? One view might have been that when those plants were first being built, it was taking potential jobs away from the Japanese economy. I don't recall hearing too much complaining back then. 

I'm all for a business balancing quality, cost, time, etc. when it is choosing where to locate certain parts of the production process (i.e. plants, support staff, etc). However too often governments get in the way and upset the balance in an attempt to persuade a business to locate in a particular region. 

I don't know the exact details, but all three levels of government provided Toyota with something when it was deciding if the Cambridge area was the right place to build a manufacturing plant. Some would say it is a wise investment in our tax dollars. Others might question why a huge profitable company like Toyota should be given help?

Not much different than why there are concessions, loans, etc. given to some sports facilities that are privately owned by a company. Look at how many facilities were built using taxpayer dollars over the last 30-40 years. Many of them were built because the local team threatened to leave if a stadium wasn't built. 

And like many things, it has probably gone on since the Industrial Revolution. But with the levels of global communication, we know about it more now.

And we put up with it more, because we want our products to be cheap. At least some of the products. We care where our high quality luxury automobiles (Porsche, MB, Rolls, etc.) come from. We don't care as much where our little compact car comes from.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

Nick said:


> Hate to say it, but the people who would outsource to India are not the people I'd want to wok for anyways.


Agreed.... anyone looking for the cheapest price isn't too concerned on the quality of design work I imagine.

Fear not, there will always be room in the domestic market for good design. (fingers crossed)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Loafer said:


> Agreed.... anyone looking for the cheapest price isn't too concerned on the quality of design work I imagine.
> 
> Fear not, there will always be room in the domestic market for good design. (fingers crossed)


I've heard the work is performed on a Windows machine and looks dreadful--but the Canadian company is so delighted with the price, they're expanding the outsourcing program and laying off internal design staff.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Typical and unsurprising.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

I am will keep my mouth shut on this one.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Out of curiosity...what design jobs are we talking about here?

Web design and programming? Magazine layouts? Lousy bunch of business cards, letterheads and brochures?

All of the above?

Design goes part and parcel with branding, I don't see how someone in India acting as a 3rd party can design the appropriate branding for a North American business. If a designer presented me with crap which does not fit with may brand...and I find out he outsourced, he's be toast and not get paid a dime.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I know a lot of people outsourcing. I've been asked why I don't outsource.

It makes no difference what my opinion is of the work really. But, personally, I prefer hiring someone here, I prefer having better quality control, more direct communication, and most of my clients just plain dislike outsourcing companies, except the really 'cheap ones', who I tend to send elsewhere.

And if I can create another job here, that that's what small businesses do here, and should continue to do, Can't b*** about the economy if I were busy sending work overseas like that.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

kps said:


> Out of curiosity...what design jobs are we talking about here?
> 
> Web design and programming? Magazine layouts? Lousy bunch of business cards, letterheads and brochures?
> 
> ...


From what I've seen, the design/template is done here, and shipped to India to get chopped up and turned into a web site (or whatever).

Oddly enough my employer has considered outsourcing web development because the talent pool in our city is small and/or working for competitors. God help me I've considered going back to school to become a better web programmer, but my head just isn't wired that way. And the worst part is the majority of the kids going through college are lazy and have no bloody idea how much opportunity there is here. Gah!

Either it's not "cool" enough work for them to bother doing, or it's the mentality that there's no reason to really learn anything because you can just look it up on the internet.

Sometimes it's hard to resist the urge to throttle 'em.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

So it's site programming that's at issue here? 

Manny, if companies can outsource to India, why can't your company "outsource" to a larger market...like Toronto or Montreal? Are there no freelance programmers in Canada looking for work?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

kps said:


> Out of curiosity...what design jobs are we talking about here?


Magazine lay-outs.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

kps said:


> So it's site programming that's at issue here?
> 
> Manny, if companies can outsource to India, why can't your company "outsource" to a larger market...like Toronto or Montreal? Are there no freelance programmers in Canada looking for work?


We are, at least for now.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

kps said:


> So it's site programming that's at issue here?
> 
> Manny, if companies can outsource to India, why can't your company "outsource" to a larger market...like Toronto or Montreal? *Are there no freelance programmers in Canada looking for work?*


Why pay someone $25+ an hour when you can pay them $5... it is the way of the business world.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

Oakbridge said:


> I may seem biased or prejudiced but most of the 'outsourced' type work seems to fall into the typical Windows type development. The mentality of "we don't care if this is actually any good, or useful, or intuitive, we just want to make money out of it and there are plenty of saps that will buy it because there is nothing better out there". In other words, it is mainly crap. Not saying that the quality of work that a developer in India is inferior, I'm saying that what they are being asked to develop is poor. It's a cheap consumable, not a high quality product.
> 
> BTW, outsourcing is not necessarily restricted to the production of digital materials, and in the food processing area, they are making it appear that it is 'Made in Canada'.
> 
> ...


Your point about food is why I've been teaching my kids how to search for proper labels and even then, it's still dicey. I know most of the 'no name' brands do exactly that - label it made in canada, but far from it. 

I also know what some scanning outfits have low prices but ship to india. As someone in the business of preserving memories, that infuriates me b/c these are not chairs or electronics you can easily re-purchase.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Nick said:


> I'm a designer and developer.
> Like Manny, I've seen people outsource development. Pretty much everything I've seen is crap.


I agree. You get what you pay for.

In my experience Outsourcing is ok for grunt work, but anything that requires high quality, like programming, or cultural savviness, like design, just can't be outsourced.

The work is done to spec, but not of high quality.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

very true. The reason why I don't do it.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

I have experienced a lot of print work going over-seas, but not design work.

Typically I find people who commission design work want someone who they can meet and or look over as they have difficulty conveying their needs in written or verbal form...(not that they accept that).

"Never mind what I wrote, do what I wanted..." Ya know what I meant to say...


It is also harder to push someone overseas for last minute changes and impossible deadlines.
Once it is signed off, then who cares where it is printed.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

JAMG, by 'print work' do you mean the actual printing is outsourced? If so, I have seen this done as well. In our case, it made sense, as the printed material was meant to be used in Asia.

A photographer told me recently that he sends his images to India for close-cropping. I can't remember the exact amount he was paying, but by our standards it was basically free.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Yes, I was referring to the actual printing press. The company I just finished working for has all their manufacturing of product in China, all printing of packaging and warehouse distribution as well.

Price is great but they do not fix any problems. We had to redo art here and FTP back.

I can see a price reason for close cropping if you have hi volume, but I wouldn't rush to do that.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

*The sword cuts both ways*

I have had a series of phone calls from India looking for me to outsource my programming. They are serious calls from what appear to be fairly large companies with a fleet of programmers. They are pumping price as an advantage but also over night service. The idea is as someone has already posted, I am supposed to run around and book a bunch of jobs and then just farm them out.

The other side of the coin is that I have clients in the States and some other countries that have done some fairly large ( to me) jobs. I charged them my normal rates. Their comment was that (a) they were happy with the service and (b) they could not have afforded to do the project at their local rates. I am trying to get one of those now. 

In terms of "local out servicing" I have very few clients in Barrie. My reading is that it is very much a branch plant economy here and the real decisions are made elsewhere. So I have clients in other locations. I would starve waiting for Barrie clients.

Historically, there has always been a "cheap place". In the '50's and 60's the title for cheapness was "Made In Japan". In all cases, eventually prices go up and in many cases the living standard of the affected country goes up. We watch them leave the third world for the first world. This is happening in both China and India as we watch, china seeming to be ahead in that race due to their population control.

Go back far enough, we, meaning North America in general, were the "cheap place". In the 1800's and early 1900's European companies screamed that we were underpricing them in everything from food through to textiles and machine goods.

... and the wheel keeps turning


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2011)

I've had the same phone calls, just the other day the one guy just wouldn't take no for an answer. He assured me that they have confidentiality agreements and the no one would know I'd used them for any projects and that they did projects for big companies all the time and it was the same arrangement with them. Not wanting to be rude I finally just told him straight out that I wasn't interested and he asked why ... to which I then replied that I'm a one man shop and I do everything myself and that I wasn't interested in having to fix other people's mistakes. He finally got the hint. He was incredibly pushy and trying really really hard to make the "sale".


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

mguertin said:


> I've had the same phone calls, just the other day the one guy just wouldn't take no for an answer. He assured me that they have confidentiality agreements and the no one would know I'd used them for any projects and that they did projects for big companies all the time and it was the same arrangement with them. Not wanting to be rude I finally just told him straight out that I wasn't interested and he asked why ... to which I then replied that I'm a one man shop and I do everything myself and that I wasn't interested in having to fix other people's mistakes. He finally got the hint. He was incredibly pushy and trying really really hard to make the "sale".


I finally gave pretty much the same response except I just told him I did not have enough business that I wanted to outsource any instead of having to fix others mistakes. Maybe I was too polite.

In reality, I am not in any hurry to enter a race for the bottom if I can help it. I watched that happen in the appraisal business when appraisal management firms came into being. It was not pretty, and still isn't.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I attended a conference last month and one of the presenters proudly explained that the Power Point presentation had been prepared by someone in the Middle East on a rush contract so that it could be ready for him overnight.


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