# Breaking Bad Poll: Will Walt off his brother-in-law?



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Curious to see what people following the series think. With Hank cottoning on to Walt's drug-dealing ways, will he become his next victim?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

You left out the "Don't care" option.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> You left out the "Don't care" option.


I didn't. Because that response is of no interest to me.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Spoiler Alert ......................................... Walt kills himself at the end to save his family.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> Spoiler Alert ......................................... Walt kills himself at the end to save his family.


Ya think? Maybe that's what the ricin is for. I think taking down Hank will be unavoidable, and Marie along with. Bye-bye purple.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> You left out the "Don't care" option.


Why would you even take the time to write a response if you don't care?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> Ya think? Maybe that's what the ricin is for. I think taking down Hank will be unavoidable, and Marie along with. Bye-bye purple.


We shall see, mon ami.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Ya think? Maybe that's what the ricin is for. I think taking down Hank will be unavoidable, and Marie along with. Bye-bye purple.


I like the way the most recent episode lined up the allegiances. When Marie threatened to take the kid, you could see murder in Skyler's eyes.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

I finished watching CSI NY and asked my Facebook "friends" for recommendations. The answer was overwhelmingly BrBa.

Now I'm binge watching. I have stuff to do, but it can wait.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

And it just gets interestinger and interestinger.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I really enjoyed the confession video. Is Hank hog tied now? 

Also the fact that Walter couldn't bring himself to ask Jesse for a favour.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

http://youtu.be/8UUD3zyu7Ek


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

^ lol


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

fjnmusic said:


> YouTube


lol :d


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Macfury said:


> I really enjoyed the confession video. Is Hank hog tied now?
> 
> Also the fact that Walter couldn't bring himself to ask Jesse for a favour.


Not much of a confession, but he does have some nice moves.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mVq_4BA5DQ]Walt gives Hank the Wrong CD - YouTube[/ame]


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Nice to see you around here again, Jumbo1


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Not as happy with the last episode--it seemed to kill the excellent momentum of the series. Not a terrible episode, but not up to the standards set by the recent entries.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I was blown away when Hank walked in to stop Jesse. Also Marie's pondering about ways to poison someone was to...uh...die for.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I liked the outdoor meeting "misunderstanding" between Jesse and Walt, especially after Jesse bolts and the little girl comes up to the "hitman" and says "daddy". Sweet.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> I was blown away when Hank walked in to stop Jesse.)


I didn't really like this--it seemed to short-circuit the character arcs. Jesse/Hank were more interesting on their own than together. That Hank brings in the second DEA agent made it even less interesting to me. It's now wavering closer to police procedural.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

21 reasons to go back to the beginning and watch it all again.

21 "Breaking Bad" Easter Eggs That Will Blow Your Mind


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

That's pretty interesting, Win!


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

It's so unfair. The site where I was watching Breaking Bad has gone all wonky. I'm guessing I've overstayed my welcome and they're making it hard for me to watch.

The past few days I've been watching Castle and about half way through the second season, it would pause every few minutes. I put up with it, but now it won't let me watch Breaking Bad and Castle is vibrating so I can't watch.

When I tapped on the latest episode of BB, I got a message to turn off my adblocker. Sure, then I got the thousand pages of ads and no way to return to the main site.

I tried Chrome, but the site demanded that I install blah, blah.

Dang it.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Finally got to watch it. Almost wish I had waited. Very unsatisfactory end.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

winwintoo said:


> Finally got to watch it. Almost wish I had waited. Very unsatisfactory end.


Three more episodes to go--I'm OK for a cliffhanger.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Will Walt kill Hank? He may not have to. Walt has people.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

fjnmusic said:


> Will Walt kill Hank? He may not have to. Walt has people.


Errr... spoilers, just in case there's anyone who isn't up to date who's fool enough to read this thread. 

If Hank dies, Walt can blame it on someone else, like most if not all of the tragedies brought on by his greed, vanity, stupidity and uncontrolled anger. 

And in a twisted sense he would be right, because the bikers are completely out of his control now. They are now acting out of naked self-interest, to capture Walt to make him cook. They might be deliberately avoiding killing Hank as the sole concession to Walt's futile attempt to call them off -- the bikers don't know who Hank is yet, but they do know Walt considers him more valuable alive than dead.

Pure speculation, not spoilers: the bikers will hold Hank hostage as a way to control Walt -- if Hank dies, it don't think it will happen until the finale. Not sure about Jesse... IMO the only character who is definitely doomed is Gomez.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

*MORE SPOILERS*



iMatt said:


> Errr... spoilers, just in case there's anyone who isn't up to date who's fool enough to read this thread.
> 
> If Hank dies, Walt can blame it on someone else, like most if not all of the tragedies brought on by his greed, vanity, stupidity and uncontrolled anger.
> 
> ...


Agreed. The uncle is a criminal, but he has a code of honour. He made a deal with Walt and will fulfill the contract in whatever way is required to get one last good cook of Blue Meth.

And Gomez is a goner!!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Given that Gomez was one of this week's guests on Talking Bad, I'd say there's a pretty good chance he's a goner.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Ouch!!


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Was that the end?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

winwintoo said:


> Was that the end?


That was not the end-two more to go.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Macfury said:


> That was not the end-two more to go.


Good. I thought it was odd if it was the end.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sorry for Hank and Gomez ............... glad to see Holly was dropped off by Walt.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Given that Gomez was one of this week's guests on Talking Bad, I'd say there's a pretty good chance he's a goner.


And seeing as Dean Norris was one of this week's guests, it seems to be a somewhat useful crystal ball. So it would seem that next week Badger will bite it.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

winwintoo said:


> Good. I thought it was odd if it was the end.


So who do you think he's saving the M-60 in the trunk for? And the ricin?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Btw, anyone else notice that the shirt Walt was wearing in the flashback at the beginning of the episode was a substantially different shade of green than the one he wore in the actual first episode?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I liked the fact that Walt clearly blamed Jesse for Hank's death--if only he had stayed still and been killed straight away, none of this would have happened.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

So now that Walt has climbed into the maroon van and driven into the sunset is there a story still to be told?


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

winwintoo said:


> So now that Walt has climbed into the maroon van and driven into the sunset is there a story still to be told?


yes of course. we already know from the flash forwards that he comes back to town to get an m60 and the ricin. plus we know his house is abandoned and graffiti ridden.

the last 2 episodes will fill in the blanks.

------

saw this after the fact. love it! :

The Brotherhood of Walter White's Abandoned Pants - Hollywood Prospectus Blog - Grantland

------

and i always thought Todd looked like Matt :


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duKL2dAJN6I]"Joking Bad" - Late Night with Jimmy Fallon - YouTube[/ame]


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

smashedbanana said:


> "Joking Bad" - Late Night with Jimmy Fallon - YouTube


Well done. :lmao::clap::lmao:


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Remember the lame ending of Lost?

What if we find out that Walt has been dead or in a coma all this time?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

winwintoo said:


> Remember the lame ending of Lost?
> 
> What if we find out that Walt has been dead or in a coma all this time?


Or like Bobby in Dallas waking up from a dream???????????? No way will they do this sort of ending. We shall see.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> Or like Bobby in Dallas waking up from a dream???????????? No way will they do this sort of ending. We shall see.


Agreed. The creative team has never played it safe on this series.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Agreed. The creative team has never played it safe on this series.


Let them go for broke. We shall see.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Vince Gilligan sold it to Bryan Cranston as Mr. Chips evolves into Scarface. I think that's the kind of ending we can expect.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

apparently the final 2 episodes are 75 mins each :

'Breaking Bad' Final Episodes Will Be 'Extra Long' | Movies News | Rolling Stone


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

In reference to the original poll question, looks like Walt did contract out to have Pinkman offed, not Hank, but Hank got it in the end anyway. Or "in the head" would be more accurate.

So who else will die before the story is through? "Granite Slate," the next episode, supposedly takes place six months further on up the road. I predict Walter White won't be quite so bald anymore. And he may have developed an interest in rocks....er, minerals.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> In reference to the original poll question, looks like Walt did contract out to have Pinkman offed, not Hank, but Hank got it in the end anyway. Or "in the head" would be more accurate.
> 
> So who else will die before the story is through? "Granite Slate," the next episode, supposedly takes place six months further on up the road.* I predict Walter White won't be quite so bald anymore*. And he may have developed an interest in rocks....er, minerals.


We saw a foreshadowing of things to come many episodes back now where Walt went back to his house and it was all fenced up and he had a full head of hair and his neighbor saw him and he said "Hi Mrs. so and so" and she dropped her bags like she was seeing a ghost...

So I think we know Walt is going to have his hair back, but as for the rest of how it plays out I'm not sure... that is what I love about this show. I can predict what is going to happen in the next 5 minutes or the next 5 seconds but I can't predict the overall arch of the story.

Really great TV, and to think this is about 50 hours of story making and telling, all very good in terms of production, acting and writing... It boggles the mind when compared to a "feature" film which is at most 2 hours these days.

Remarkable!!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm guessing Pinkman survives, Todd is offed, and Walter's fate is indeterminate.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

screature said:


> We saw a foreshadowing of things to come many episodes back now where Walt went back to his house and it was all fenced up and he had a full head of hair and his neighbor saw him and he said "Hi Mrs. so and so" and she dropped her bags like she was seeing a ghost...
> 
> So I think we know Walt is going to have his hair back, but as for the rest of how it plays out I'm not sure... that is what I love about this show. I can predict what is going to happen in the next 5 minutes or the next 5 seconds but I can't predict the overall arch of the story.
> 
> ...


I believe the flash-forward is a hint of what's to come, a year or so later, but it's not the end. Clearly he has acquired that M-60 for a reason. He looks like he is also wearing Jesse's old flack jacket, which is a trademark that he does for people he has killed; he starts taking ice with his Scotch for example, just like Mike; he maintains the "Have an A-One Day" friendly demeanor with Lydia, just like Gus used to do. This might be bad new for Jesse, because I was kind of hoping Jesse would be the one to finish Walter off. We shall see, as Dr. G says.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> *I believe the flash-forward is a hint of what's to come, a year or so later, but it's not the end.* Clearly he has acquired that M-60 for a reason. He looks like he is also wearing Jesse's old flack jacket, which is a trademark that he does for people he has killed; he starts taking ice with his Scotch for example, just like Mike; he maintains the "Have an A-One Day" friendly demeanor with Lydia, just like Gus used to do. This might be bad new for Jesse, because *I was kind of hoping Jesse would be the one to finish Walter off*. We shall see, as Dr. G says.


No I don't think it is the end but every time they have had these "mystery scenes" before they have come to pass so I believe the one I mentioned will come to pass as well.

Personally, I don't want anyone in particular to "finish Walter off". I think it would be better if some sort of unplanned and unexpected but precipitous fate is in store for him. IMO it would be more fitting with the way the story has unfolded thus far.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> I believe the flash-forward is a hint of what's to come, a year or so later, but it's not the end. Clearly he has acquired that M-60 for a reason. He looks like he is also wearing Jesse's old flack jacket, which is a trademark that he does for people he has killed; he starts taking ice with his Scotch for example, just like Mike; he maintains the "Have an A-One Day" friendly demeanor with Lydia, just like Gus used to do. This might be bad new for Jesse, because I was kind of hoping Jesse would be the one to finish Walter off. We shall see, as Dr. G says.


Dr. G. has finally caught up to the current show. My son made me watch all the episodes when I said that I was only going to watch the last few to see how the show ends. I had to explain to him the meaning of the poem "Ozymandias" written by Percy Bysshe Shelley.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

screature said:


> No I don't think it is the end but every time they have had these "mystery scenes" before they have come to pass so I believe the one I mentioned will come to pass as well.
> 
> Personally, I don't want anyone in particular to "finish Walter off". I think it would be better if some sort of unplanned and unexpected but precipitous fate is in store for him. IMO it would be more fitting with the way the story has unfolded thus far.


Good idea, screature. My bet is for him to blow himself up in a meth lab explosion. We shall see.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> Dr. G. has finally caught up to the current show. My son made me watch all the episodes when I said that I was only going to watch the last few to see how the show ends. I had to explain to him the meaning of the poem "Ozymandias" written by Percy Bysshe Shelley.






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> Dr. G. has finally caught up to the current show. My son made me watch all the episodes when I said that I was only going to watch the last few to see how the show ends. I had to explain to him the meaning of the poem "Ozymandias" written by Percy Bysshe Shelley.


Welcome to the club, Dr. G! Of course, catching up this close to the end game means your addiction should not have to last as long.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. Merci, mon ami.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> Welcome to the club, Dr. G! Of course, catching up this close to the end game means your addiction should not have to last as long.


True. We would watch about four straight episodes that he downloaded from Netflix and then take a break.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> True. We would watch about four straight episodes that he downloaded from Netflix and then take a break.


To be honest, I don't think there's been this much TV excitement since the first season of Survivor.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> To be honest, I don't think there's been this much TV excitement since the first season of Survivor.


I have not seen that show, fjn, so I can't comment in a knowledgeable sense. I tend not to watch much TV these days other than for news and some sports. Paix, mon ami.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

So no "Breaking Bad" parties? After reading this thread I began to watch the show on Netflix, I'm caught up to the last 8 episodes, which are not on Netflix as yet, so I'll have to wait ( which means not reading anymore of this thread until then ) But Hank's demise is obvious, I think Sky is bye-bye, I don't see Walt biting the big one, and I think Jesse wil turn into the "old Walt" .... He'll be the only one to drift through this unscathed.....so I'll have to wait a year to find out........


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Rps said:


> So no "Breaking Bad" parties? After reading this thread I began to watch the show on Netflix, I'm caught up to the last 8 episodes, which are not on Netflix as yet, so I'll have to wait ( which means not reading anymore of this thread until then ) But Hank's demise is obvious, I think Sky is bye-bye, I don't see Walt biting the big one, and I think Jesse wil turn into the "old Walt" .... He'll be the only one to drift through this unscathed.....so I'll have to wait a year to find out........


Eps, I sent you a PM, but after a tapped send, ehmac did something weird and I don't know if the message actually got sent.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Rps said:


> So no "Breaking Bad" parties? After reading this thread I began to watch the show on Netflix, I'm caught up to the last 8 episodes, which are not on Netflix as yet, so I'll have to wait ( which means not reading anymore of this thread until then ) But Hank's demise is obvious, I think Sky is bye-bye, I don't see Walt biting the big one, and I think Jesse wil turn into the "old Walt" .... He'll be the only one to drift through this unscathed.....so I'll have to wait a year to find out........


Interesting hypothesis, Rps.  Of course, you can also find what you're looking for on iTunes, and I know at least a couple of Season 5 episodes are free on AMC.com, as well as lots of cool behind the scenes stuff.


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

*** Spoilers ***

The gun fight / death of Hank reminded me of when Gus was forced to watch his partner get killed by the pool by the Cartel. It was like his breaking point that changed he from someone who could try to outthink a situation to someone who needed to do the dirty deeds to be in "business". We see the same evil in Walt after with Skyler, et al.

Ed


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Walter White is Macbeth.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

fjnmusic said:


> Walter White is Macbeth.


Interesting draw that, I was thinking King Lear.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Rps said:


> Interesting draw that, I was thinking King Lear.


You start off rooting for Walt, but by the end of the series, you're just waiting for him to get his comeuppance. The only question is, who's going to be the one? I'd guess Jesse, but you never know.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> You start off rooting for Walt, but by the end of the series, you're just waiting for him to get his comeuppance.


I don't agree. It's far more subtle. I want Walt's comeuppance, but as it appears to approach, I also want it to be infinitely postponed.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Infinitely, or indefinitely? No one lives forever.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Infinitely, or indefinitely? No one lives forever.


His comeuppance could be infinitely postponed, even though he dies of the common cold!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I'm picturing something more like Scarface. But here's a lovely chart in the meantime: http://io9.com/5940352/a-chart-of-every-death-in-breaking-bad-that-can-be-tied-back-to-walter-white


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Another episode unlike anything I expected. I'd start a new poll, but will just ask people to guess instead—what is Walt planning to do after leaving the Granite State?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Another episode unlike anything I expected. I'd start a new poll, but will just ask people to guess instead—what is Walt planning to do after leaving the Granite State?


Head for home to see Skylar and the kids one last time.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

*SPOILERS BELOW*

He's heading for home alright, but it's difficult to see what makes him the angriest. As far as I know, Saul is untraceable. His one connection to criminal hired hands was with Todd and his uncle, so he's pretty much on his own. His anger seems most focused on Todd and his uncle for killing Hank, as if though only that has separated him from his family. He'd be pretty much in the same boat if Hank were still alive and had thrown him in the slammer. His family would be no better off this way, although I'm sure this escapes him. He's clearly become angry about his former business partner again and seems to have no thoughts at all about Jesse at this point.

I liked it that Saul was pretty cool with the way things had disintegrated. He made a gamble and lost, and now it's time to move on.

Now what was Jesse thinking with that escape attempt? He knew that his girlfriend's life was on the line if he tried to escape and failed. Even a successful escape would put them in severe danger. I'd write it off more to stupid optimism than selfishness, but Jesse is not a guy I'd want in my corner at the best of times.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

smashedbanana said:


> *** Spoilers ***
> 
> The gun fight / death of Hank reminded me of when Gus was forced to watch his partner get killed by the pool by the Cartel. It was like his breaking point that changed he from someone who could try to outthink a situation to someone who needed to do the dirty deeds to be in "business". *We see the same evil in Walt after with Skyler*, et al.
> 
> Ed


The phone call to Skyler was a ruse. Walt knew the cops were listening in, it was a way to make them think that she was merely a victim of his as well so that she would not be prosecuted.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Dead on!


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

:lmao: That's great winwintoo.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Walt may also go after that couple from the Greymatter company for dissing him on TV. Jesse will gather Todd and his uncle in the meth lab and blow them all to hell.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

It certainly has been a neat trick to turn Jesse into a sympathetic character. After all, he only murdered one man in cold blood, and refused to rat on the murderer of a small boy!


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> Walt may also go after that couple from the Greymatter company for dissing him on TV. * Jesse will gather Todd and his uncle in the meth lab and blow them all to hell.*


I hadn't thought of that, but you know what, I think that is a definite possibility. 

The only thing I would add is that Jesse can't escape so he get's blown up along with them.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Walt would really be losing it if he goes after the Greymatter people at this point. Seems like small potatoes compared to his grudge with the family Aryan. I'll bet whatever he does is going to be damned sweet--not simple murder.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> It certainly has been a neat trick to turn Jesse into a sympathetic character. After all, he only murdered one man in cold blood, and refused to rat on the murderer of a small boy!


Ya I don't quite get how some people think Jesse is some sort of victim in all this. He certainly has no honour, not to mention brains.

The only smart thing he ever did was the fake phone call about knowing where the money was buried and he had Hank's help in arranging that.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> *Walt would really be losing it if he goes after the Greymatter people at this point. Seems like small potatoes compared to his grudge with the family Aryan*. I'll bet whatever he does is going to be damned sweet--not simple murder.


I agree, he won't go after the Greymatter people. There are still so many loose ends to be wrapped up yet in the final episode, I can't see how this could be one of them in the short amount of time left.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> I agree, he won't go after the Greymatter people. There are still so many loose ends to be wrapped up yet in the final episode, I can't see how this could be one of them in the short amount of time left.


If Greymatter is involved, there may be some way to force them to keep his family well padded with cash, so the DEA doesn't take it. Allowing Jesse to live his ruined life at this point is almost too cruel. Make Skyler the head of the new anti-drug foundation they're starting!

At this point, I don't think letting Jesse live is any better or worse than letting him die. His choices have destroyed his life beyond redemption. Stick a fork in him...

I found it interesting that the DVD Walt is offered in NH is from 2009--a reminder that only a year has passed in the timeline of the series.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> *If Greymatter is involved, there may be some way to force them to keep his family well padded with cash, so the DEA doesn't take it.* Allowing Jesse to live his ruined life at this point is almost too cruel. Make Skyler the head of the new anti-drug foundation they're starting!
> 
> At this point, I don't think letting Jesse live is any better or worse than letting him die. His choices have destroyed his life beyond redemption. Stick a fork in him...
> 
> I found it interesting that the DVD Walt is offered in NH is from 2009--a reminder that only a year has passed in the timeline of the series.


I suppose that is a possibility and why they have been brought back in at this late juncture. You might be right in that prediction.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Flashback to the first episode where Walt is overcome by Bunsen burner fumes and faints, bumping his head. He wakes up ...................... and the last five seasons are all a dream. Or, his school is hit by a tornado and some flying debris clunks him on his head. He wakes up to see Skylar, Walt Jr., Marie and Hank in his hospital bed .............. with Dr. Jesse as his physician ............... and then in comes his Auntie Em with his little dog, Toto. We shall see.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

The Mythbusters come in and reveal that much of Vince Gilligan's science is really just artistic license on behalf of the writers, blue crystal meth included. All remaining actors are handcuffed and taken away like at the end of Holy Grail.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

"Mr. White... he's the devil. You know, he is... he is smarter than you, he is luckier than you. Whatever... whatever you think is supposed to happen... I'm telling you, the exact reverse opposite of that is gonna happen, okay?" -- Jesse Pinkman (episode 512, Rabid Dog).

Smarts, luck, expectations thwarted. Therefore, my guess is that somehow, Walter will get all his money back and survive. I don't know how, but the rest of the series has been true to that Jesse quote at every turn. 

On the specifics of the last episode, I think Grey Matter is a bit of a red herring. They may figure into the conclusion somehow, but it seems to me the main point of that bit was to tell Walter that the blue meth was still in production, and therefore that Jesse is alive. Is he out to rescue him, or to finish the job that the bikers were supposed to finish but didn't? And who's the poison for?


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

iMatt said:


> Is he out to rescue him, or to finish the job that the bikers were supposed to finish but didn't? And who's the poison for?


I can't conceive that he would want to rescue the guy he marked for death. I suspect professional jealousy would be the biggest motivator, seeing as Jesse has cooked up a batch of 96% pure meth, better than the 92% Heisenberg was famous for.

My bet is that the ricin is for Lydia for selling the stuff.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I can't conceive that he would want to rescue the guy he marked for death. I suspect professional jealousy would be the biggest motivator, seeing as Jesse has cooked up a batch of 96% pure meth, better than the 92% Heisenberg was famous for.
> 
> My bet is that the ricin is for Lydia for selling the stuff.


Those developments would certainly be consistent with expectations. Lydia is the most obvious target for the ricin, so maybe it's going to turn out to be for the Gray Matter folks?

Taking out (or trying to take out) Jesse and the bikers who broke their word also seems most logical. But what's the exact reverse opposite?

And wasn't Heisenberg famous for hitting 99%? 

Gale Boetticher was very proud of hitting 92%, but knew Gus Fring's superlab could do even better if only they had Heisenberg on board.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

iMatt said:


> Smarts, luck, expectations thwarted. Therefore, my guess is that somehow, Walter will get all his money back and survive. I don't know how, but the rest of the series has been true to that Jesse quote at every turn.


did they give us a clue to Walt's final comeback ? :

Last Night's Breaking Bad Featured a Denver-Wisconsin College Hockey Game from 1998 | Extra Mustard - SI.com



iMatt said:


> And wasn't Heisenberg famous for hitting 99%?
> 
> Gale Boetticher was very proud of hitting 92%, but knew Gus Fring's superlab could do even better if only they had Heisenberg on board.


yep. I think Gale got up to 96% as well, but mentioned that final 3% was something he couldn't touch. Jesse equaled the 96%, but no one has touched Walt's 99.1%.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

iMatt said:


> And wasn't Heisenberg famous for hitting 99%?
> 
> Gale Boetticher was very proud of hitting 92%, but knew Gus Fring's superlab could do even better if only they had Heisenberg on board.


Right--I got the numbers wrong. Still the thought that a fake Heisenberg is producing the 96% meth will get Walt's back up.

By the way, if you phone the number on the vacuum cleaner outlet sign, there's a recorded message from the actor asking you to leave a message about your vacuum.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

i-rui said:


> did they give us a clue to Walt's final comeback ? :
> 
> Last Night's Breaking Bad Featured a Denver-Wisconsin College Hockey Game from 1998 | Extra Mustard - SI.com


Hah. Given that it's such an old game (I'll just assume it was on ESPN Classics), it's likely to have been chosen for a reason. And a major comeback by Walt does fit my extremely vague prediction...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I haven't seen an episode of the series yet - maybe I'll save it to watch in my later years... but I know enough to realize how funny this is:



(read more at HuffPo)


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Finally watched the first episode that AMC is replaying along with the first season all this week. At least I know where they got the name for the title of the show.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> I haven't seen an episode of the series yet - maybe I'll save it to watch in my later years... but I know enough to realize how funny this is:
> 
> 
> 
> (read more at HuffPo)


Is it news of the long wait between treatments that gives him that glazed look in the final panel?


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

I was listening to CBC today and they were talking about Kevin Cordasco, the 16-year old Breaking Bad fan who sadly succumbed to Neuroblastoma. 

Apparently Vince Gilligan offered to reveal the entire last season to him, but he refused wanting to see it on his own. Unfortunetly he did not make it 

He asked Vince about Grey Matter and why that part of Walt's past has never been circled back to. Vince added the Grey Matter tie in just for him and added a dedication to him at the end of the episode.

Touching.

Ed


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

smashedbanana said:


> I was listening to CBC today and they were talking about Kevin Cordasco, the 16-year old Breaking Bad fan who sadly succumbed to Neuroblastoma.
> 
> Apparently Vince Gilligan offered to reveal the entire last season to him, but he refused wanting to see it on his own. Unfortunetly he did not make it
> 
> ...


Wow... I hadn't heard that. Thanks for sharing Ed.

It just helps to add to my admiration for Vince... as if it could be more... I already considered him a genius. Now he is also a really, really nice genius.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

screature said:


> Wow... I hadn't heard that. Thanks for sharing Ed.
> 
> It just helps to add to my admiration for Vince... as if it could be more... I already considered him a genius. Now he is also a really, really nice genius.


That is a moving story. Well, kids, only one more sleep until....the final episode of Talking Bad! It's going to be a one hour special!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I won $20 for my favorite local charity by being able to identify what Ba and Br stood for without looking it up on google. So, the School Lunch Association is now $20 richer for my remembering my chemistry and Barium and Bromine.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> I won $20 for my favorite local charity by being able to identify what Ba and Br stood for without looking it up on google. So, the School Lunch Association is now $20 richer for my remembering my chemistry and Barium and Bromine.


Good thing you didn't blurt out Breaking Bad!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Good thing you didn't blurt out Breaking Bad!


No, but that is also a trivia question that I discovered while watching episode #1 -- the meaning of "breaking bad". Guess I am not up in my urban slang anymore.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Why People In Other Countries Wouldn't Get The Premise Of 'Breaking Bad'


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The problem isn't the cancer treatment, but the fact that his family would be destitute after he dies because they had no savings. What U.S. teacher's union doesn't have a gold-plated medical plan?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Glad to see Badger and Skinny Pete are still keeping out of trouble.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

A good ending, in my opinion. I guessed the title of the show which helped to see what might happen throughout the show, but it was well done. Walt went out with some dignity. A touching moment when he saw Holly for the last time.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Congrats to MacFury!!

You nailed the Greymatter connection perfectly! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:



Macfury said:


> *If Greymatter is involved, there may be some way to force them to keep his family well padded with cash, so the DEA doesn't take it.*...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> A good ending, in my opinion. I guessed the title of the show which helped to see what might happen throughout the show, but it was well done. Walt went out with some dignity. A touching moment when he saw Holly for the last time.


And Walt Junior.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

screature said:


> And Walt Junior.


He did not look as if he was going to break down and cry while viewing Walt Jr. for the last time. He had a look of sadness in his eyes as he gazed through the window, but looking at him in the close up with Holly brought tears to my eyes, so I can just imagine how hard it was for Bryan C. to hold it together for that scene.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> He did not look as if he was going to break down and cry while viewing Walt Jr. for the last time. He had a look of sadness in his eyes as he gazed through the window, but looking at him in the close up with Holly brought tears to my eyes, so I can just imagine how hard it was for Bryan C. to hold it together for that scene.


The thing is with Walt Jr. is he only wanted to see him one last time... he didn't want Jr. to have to suffer the pain and trauma of confronting his father. It was a class act.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

screature said:


> The thing is with Walt Jr. is he only wanted to see him one last time... he didn't want Jr. to have to suffer the pain and trauma of confronting his father. It was a class act.


Very true, screature. Yes, it was a "class act" on his part. I still thought that he was going to take out Todd, his uncle Jake, et al in a big lab explosion, but Walt's way was much better.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Now with the "Better Call Saul" show in the works, I wonder if Jesse will ever pop up as a client?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> *A good ending, in my opinion.* I guessed the title of the show which helped to see what might happen throughout the show, but it was well done. Walt went out with some dignity. A touching moment when he saw Holly for the last time.


Yep really good, not schlocky or overly emotional. Just wrapping up all the loose ends that Walt needed to wrap up before he died.

A really great piece of work all around. Congrats to everyone involved with BB. Definitely one of the greatest works of TV programing ever.

Vince Gilligan is a genius.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

An interesting clip.

The evolution of Walter White - CNN.com Video


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> Very true, screature. Yes, it was a "class act" on his part. I still thought that he was going to take out Todd, his uncle Jake, et al in a big lab explosion, but Walt's way was much better.


After Todd killed Jesse's woman it was only fitting that Jesse killed Todd... I actually cheered while he did it. Kind of like I cheered when the shark got blown up in Jaws.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

screature said:


> After Todd killed Jesse's woman it was only fitting that Jesse killed Todd... I actually cheered while he did it. Kind of like I cheered when the shark got blown up in Jaws.


Again, very true.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

'SNL' spoofs 'Breaking Bad' and Obamacare - CNN.com Video

Another unique clip.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> Congrats to MacFury!!
> 
> You nailed the Greymatter connection perfectly! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


I'm proud of getting something right!

A great conclusion to the series. Thoughtful, moving and brilliantly executed.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I think it was incredible that despite all of the pain and suffering Walt caused others, he was still a sympathetic figure right to the end. Rescuing Jesse, even if that was not his original intention, was the ultimate heroic act. I mean, he literally took a bullet for the kid.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> I think it was incredible that despite all of the pain and suffering Walt caused others, he was still a sympathetic figure right to the end. Rescuing Jesse, even if that was not his original intention, was the ultimate heroic act. I mean, he literally took a bullet for the kid.


A good observation, fjn. Paix, mon ami.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> I'm proud of getting something right!
> 
> A great conclusion to the series. Thoughtful, moving and brilliantly executed.


I agree. Finally an ending that ended well in that it was "thoughtful, moving and brilliantly executed".

Don't ask me to explain it, but the ending left me feeling the same way as I felt watching the final scene of "Bridge on the River Kwai".


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## mar2007 (Oct 13, 2007)

I'm still mad about them killing off Hank. I didn't like the ending.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

If Breaking Bad was a story about a man who turns to crime to pay his medical bills, then I guess the Sopranos was the story of a strip club owner who seeks help for anxiety issues.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

fjnmusic said:


> I think it was incredible that despite all of the pain and suffering Walt caused others, he *was still a sympathetic figure right to the end*. Rescuing Jesse, even if that was not his original intention, was the ultimate heroic act. I mean, he literally took a bullet for the kid.


Whoa. Didn't see it that way at all. I thought Walt became deeply unsympathetic very early on, and downright evil around the end of season 2. 

To me, the ending is his partial redemption, and maybe the achievement of his desire to go out as big a legend as he was in his own mind. But a sympathetic character all the way? Ii just don't see it...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I agree that the character of Walt was no longer sympathetic. What had me often rooting for some of his activities was the notion that cleverness and intelligence well applied could wreak such devastation on his enemies. I was rooting for the execution of those plans, and often the punishment and deaths of those on the receiving end, but not really for Walt himself.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I agree that the character of Walt was no longer sympathetic. What had me often rooting for some of his activities was the notion that cleverness and intelligence well applied could wreak such devastation on his enemies. I was rooting for the execution of those plans, and often the punishment and deaths of those on the receiving end, but not really for Walt himself.


That's a good way to put it.

I also think some of us clung to a bit of the sympathetic Walt we saw very early on -- the downtrodden everyman, henpecked, working a crap second job to make ends meet, a big-time underachiever. The path he takes to reverse that fate is probably a dark fantasy for a lot of people, but I don't think that makes him any more sympathetic. When all's said and done, he's still a tragic figure who leaves all kinds of death, destruction and shattered lives in his wake. 

His partial redemption is in killing a bunch of bad guys, freeing the man he helped ruin (though Jesse was already a mess in S1Ep1), and finding a way to (probably) get a pile of money to his family. And he gets to go out more or less on his own terms. But none of that really fixes all the tragedy.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> I think it was incredible that despite all of the pain and suffering Walt caused others, he was still a sympathetic figure right to the end. Rescuing Jesse, *even if that was not his original intention*, was the ultimate heroic act. I mean, he literally took a bullet for the kid.


I think it was part of his intention, he knew Jesse would go ape on him and when he did and knocked them both to the floor that's when he let hell fire rain down on the gang... so I think it was part of his plan.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> I think it was part of his intention, he knew Jesse would go ape on him and when he did and knocked them both to the floor that's when he let hell fire rain down on the gang... so I think it was part of his plan.


It looked to me as though Walt was fully prepared to go down in a hail of his own bullets to eliminate the gang. Jesse's rescue was simply a side-venture. Walt didn't even know where Jesse was being kept. The likeliest outcome would have been the death of Walt and the gang members, with the police eventually finding Jesse held captive somewhere.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> I think it was incredible that despite all of the pain and suffering Walt caused others, he was still a sympathetic figure right to the end. Rescuing Jesse, even if that was not his original intention, was the ultimate heroic act. I mean, he literally took a bullet for the kid.





iMatt said:


> Whoa. Didn't see it that way at all. I thought Walt became deeply unsympathetic very early on, and downright evil around the end of season 2.
> 
> To me, the ending is his partial redemption, and maybe the achievement of his desire to go out as big a legend as he was in his own mind. But a sympathetic character all the way? Ii just don't see it...





Macfury said:


> I agree that the character of Walt was no longer sympathetic. What had me often rooting for some of his activities was the notion that cleverness and intelligence well applied could wreak such devastation on his enemies. I was rooting for the execution of those plans, and often the punishment and deaths of those on the receiving end, but not really for Walt himself.





iMatt said:


> That's a good way to put it.
> 
> I also think some of us clung to a bit of the sympathetic Walt we saw very early on -- the downtrodden everyman, henpecked, working a crap second job to make ends meet, a big-time underachiever. The path he takes to reverse that fate is probably a dark fantasy for a lot of people, but I don't think that makes him any more sympathetic. When all's said and done, he's still a tragic figure who leaves all kinds of death, destruction and shattered lives in his wake.
> 
> His partial redemption is in killing a bunch of bad guys, freeing the man he helped ruin (though Jesse was already a mess in S1Ep1), and finding a way to (probably) get a pile of money to his family. And he gets to go out more or less on his own terms. But none of that really fixes all the tragedy.


He was still a sympathetic and complex character to me. That is what was great about the whole series is that virtually none of the characters were blameless or faultless. They all had their deep significant flaws, except fort Walt Jr. I suppose.

There was all kinds of moral ambiguity throughout the series and that is what I loved about it.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I haven't been watching the show (will have to gear up for a marathon soon) but I have been following the writers some... their intention was to make Walt sympathetic in the beginning, and then turn him around over the course of the show to be unsympathetic.... and yet still make people want to watch the show. 

It's a tricky thing to pull off in storytelling.... most of my writer friends are big fans because of the brilliance of the character development.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> I haven't been watching the show (will have to gear up for a marathon soon) but I have been following the writers some... their intention was to make Walt sympathetic in the beginning, and then turn him around over the course of the show to be unsympathetic.... and yet still make people want to watch the show.
> 
> It's a tricky thing to pull off in storytelling.... most of my writer friends are big fans *because of the brilliance of the character development*.


You really do have to watch it Sonal. As a writer, you are in for a treat.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

screature said:


> He was still a sympathetic and complex character to me. That is what was great about the whole series is that virtually none of the characters were blameless or faultless. They all had their deep significant flaws, except fort Walt Jr. I suppose.
> 
> There was all kinds of moral ambiguity throughout the series and that is what I loved about it.


After the climax of season 2 (end of the Jane story arc) I only saw the tiniest glimmers of a sympathetic Walt. To me, he was about 99.1% pure evil until he decided to use his smarts and luck to mete out some justice at the very end.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

iMatt said:


> After the climax of season 2 (end of the Jane story arc) I only saw the tiniest glimmers of a sympathetic Walt. To me, he was about 99.1% pure evil until he decided to use his smarts and luck to mete out some justice at the very end.


He let Jane die to save Jesse (obviously he had his selfish reasons as well).
He was right that 2 junkies with 1/2 million bucks would have been dead in short order. That is the kind of moral ambiguity I am talking about.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> He let Jane die to save Jesse (obviously he had his selfish reasons as well).
> He was right that 2 junkies with 1/2 million bucks would have been dead in short order. That is the kind of moral ambiguity I am talking about.


I saw no notion of moral ambiguity. He hesitated for a second, then realized he needed Jesse for the immediate future and allowed the girl to die. He then justified it for a reason other than the one he chose to act on.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

I admit that I was playing solitaire while I watched and probably missed it, but how DID Walt die?

One minute he was leaning on the chem vessel and the next he was lying on the floor.

What did I miss?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I saw no notion of moral ambiguity. He hesitated for a second, then realized he needed Jesse for the immediate future and allowed the girl to die. He then justified it for a reason other than the one he chose to act on.


Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

winwintoo said:


> I admit that I was playing solitaire while I watched and probably missed it, but how DID Walt die?
> 
> One minute he was leaning on the chem vessel and the next he was lying on the floor.
> 
> What did I miss?


He did not definitively die, but it was clear that he had fallen to the floor and had at least passed out from grievous bullet injuries.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

winwintoo said:


> I admit that I was playing solitaire while I watched and probably missed it, but how DID Walt die?
> 
> One minute he was leaning on the chem vessel and the next he was lying on the floor.
> 
> What did I miss?


Nothing. He just succome to his bullet wound.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

screature said:


> He let Jane die to save Jesse (obviously he had his selfish reasons as well).


I think that's putting it mildly. IMO it was an entirely selfish non-act, and saving Jesse was entirely selfish too. And it led directly (however implausibly) to the plane crash. The crash initially sparked some pangs of conscience, but he quickly got over them and rationalized the whole thing in terms of some twisted sense of greater good -- the greater good of his meth-cooking operation, which he always rationalized as being "for the family" right until he finally admitted in the finale: "I did it for me."



screature said:


> He was right that 2 junkies with 1/2 million bucks would have been dead in short order. That is the kind of moral ambiguity I am talking about.


Maybe he was right about that, maybe he wasn't. To me, "letting her die" was nothing short of cold-blooded murder. It just wasn't his call to make, and I don't see it as justifiable in any way outside the narrow bounds of "what's good for Walt-as-Heisenberg."


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

iMatt said:


> I think that's putting it mildly. IMO it was an entirely selfish non-act, and saving Jesse was entirely selfish too. And it led directly (however implausibly) to the plane crash. The crash initially sparked some pangs of conscience, but he quickly got over them and rationalized the whole thing in terms of some twisted sense of greater good -- the greater good of his meth-cooking operation, which he always rationalized as being "for the family" right until he finally admitted in the finale: "I did it for me."
> 
> Maybe he was right about that, maybe he wasn't. To me, "letting her die" was nothing short of cold-blooded murder. It just wasn't his call to make, and I don't see it as justifiable in any way outside the narrow bounds of "what's good for Walt-as-Heisenberg."


Without doubt once Heisenberg came onto the scene he changed dramatically and he became addicted to the rush and the money. 

Saving Jesse wasn't IMO entirely selfish, he had a love hate relationship with him as he demonstrated time and again.

At worst letting Jane die would be considered manslaughter.

At any rate I don't see the things that he did in the black and white terms that you do so I think it is just best to agree to disagree.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> You really do have to watch it Sonal. As a writer, you are in for a treat.


If it's on Canadian Netflix, I can start plowing through it from the beginning.

Fortunately, spoilers never bothered me.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

iMatt said:


> I think that's putting it mildly. IMO it was an entirely selfish non-act, and saving Jesse was entirely selfish too. And it led directly (however implausibly) to the plane crash. The crash initially sparked some pangs of conscience, but he quickly got over them and rationalized the whole thing in terms of some twisted sense of greater good -- the greater good of his meth-cooking operation, which he always rationalized as being "for the family" right until he finally admitted in the finale: "I did it for me."


Yes, that moment's hesitation as he let her choke had nothing to do with the thought that Jesse and the girl might some day succumb to their addictions. The plane crash that resulted indirectly from his decision was thematically linked to his reprehensible choice.

Even at the end, Lydia was murdered with no thought given to her now-orphaned daughter.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Yes, that moment's hesitation as he let her choke had nothing to do with the thought that Jesse and the girl might some day succumb to their addictions. The plane crash that resulted indirectly from his decision was thematically linked to *his reprehensible choice*.
> 
> Even at the end, Lydia was murdered with no thought given to her now-orphaned daughter.


No reprehensible choice... no story.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

screature said:


> Saving Jesse wasn't IMO entirely selfish, he had a love hate relationship with him as he demonstrated time and again.


And yet time and again, Jesse tried to get out of their partnership; and time and again Walt drew (or manipulated) him back in -- almost entirely for selfish reasons. While I agree there was some sort of paternalistic bond there, it was also toxic, especially for Jesse. A love so toxic that Jesse eventually and quite willingly flipped to the DEA. 



screature said:


> At worst letting Jane die would be considered manslaughter.


Jane had just blackmailed Walt, she was a huge threat to his grand plans for Heisenberg; he hated her. He may not have gone there planning to kill her, but once she started to choke (and as I remember it, she only rolled over on her back after Walt shook Jesse), Walt made a deliberate and calculated decision to stand by and watch her choke to death.

I don't know if that's murder or manslaughter in a legal sense, but in the context of the story I don't have any doubt that Walt had murder in his heart.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

iMatt said:


> *And yet time and again, Jesse tried to get out of their partnership; and time and again Walt drew (or manipulated) him back in -- almost entirely for selfish reasons. While I agree there was some sort of paternalistic bond there, it was also toxic, especially for Jesse. A love so toxic that Jesse eventually and quite willingly flipped to the DEA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jesse was far from being being a victim he was a willing partner. I don't know that there is any evidence that Walt hated "Jane". He certainly didn't like her and the influence that she had on Jesse, making him into an even worse junkie than he was before. I don't believe for a second he went there with murder in his heart he simply wanted to get Jesse away from Jane.


----------



## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

screature said:


> Jesse was far from being being a victim he was a willing partner.


At the very beginning, Walt blackmailed Jesse into becoming partners. (Help me cook or I'll turn you in.)

Several times after that, Walt strongarmed Jesse into going back to cooking even though he wanted to drop out. He even poisoned the boy, Brock, as a ruse to get Jesse back on his side.

So even if Jesse was willing at times (lured by greed), and even if there was genuine camaraderie sometimes, he also decided several times to drop out, only to have Walt bully him back in. The whole thing with Jane was just one example of that: Jane was going to take Jesse away (whether through addiction or just leaving), and she had to be stopped by whatever means necessary.



screature said:


> I don't know that there is any evidence that Walt hated "Jane". He certainly didn't like her and the influence that she had on Jesse, making him into an even worse junkie than he was before. I don't believe for a second he went there with murder in his heart he simply wanted to get Jesse away from Jane.


I didn't say he went there with murder in his heart. I said once she started to choke, he let his hatred of her take over and coldly stood by and watched. A very chilling performance by Cranston, because you can see the gears turning: _Oh, she's choking! Maybe I should help... but wait, her dying is very useful to me, and Jesse will never even know!_ So I guess, speaking as an online armchair lawyer, that would make it 2nd degree murder.

As for not hating her? I watched that season about three weeks ago and it seemed very clear Walt hated Jane intensely. Just daring to blackmail Walt the way she did would have been enough to earn Walt's eternal hate.

Her influence? Well, don't forget she was clean and Jesse drew her back into using. Yes, she introduced him to heroin. But if you look at Jane's story from beginning to end (basically all of season 2), meeting Jesse was the beginning of the end for her, ultimately because Jesse was still smoking meth, and because he was Walt's partner.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

iMatt said:


> At the very beginning, Walt blackmailed Jesse into becoming partners. (Help me cook or I'll turn you in.)
> 
> Several times after that, Walt strongarmed Jesse into going back to cooking even though he wanted to drop out. He even poisoned the boy, Brock, as a ruse to get Jesse back on his side.
> 
> ...


I know the story iMatt I have watched it as well we clearly just don't see eye to eye on the black vs. white vs. grey aspects of the show. Like I said we will just have to agree to disagree. 

But it couldn't be second degree murder as he did nothing to Jane he simply let it happen. The law is different here in Canada where he would have been required to intervene but it isn't the same in the US.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Yes, I think I have reached the point of agreeing to disagree.

Just one thing: Whether his inaction would legally count as murder in the real world, let alone that state or this country, is largely irrelevant to me. Walt sees a woman choking to death and could easily save her. But her death is very convenient for him -- arguably the most helpful event he could have wished for at that moment -- so he doesn't. It may not convince a judge and jury, but in this fiction I call that murder. 

We could pick over most of the deaths in the show in a similar way. Self defence? Murder? Manslaughter? Simple accident? No matter how you file them, there were a LOT of deaths in this story either directly committed by Walt or caused by a chain of events he launched. Some unambiguously murder, some accidents but still the consequences of Walt's misdeeds. Walt didn't kill Hank, but is Hank's death his fault? I say it absolutely is.

That's a huge reason I can't see Walt as a sympathetic character, not to mention his almost complete lack of remorse for any if it; in most cases, he just rationalizes it all away as advancing his project of providing for his family when he dies.


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## MacUnited (Nov 1, 2009)

And the whole point of him loving his family unconditionally?
I think what the show has succeeded is demonstrating that in real life there is no pure evil or pure good, we all fall somewhere in between to different degrees of course..


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MacUnited said:


> And the whole point of him loving his family unconditionally?
> I think what the show has succeeded is demonstrating that in real life *there is no pure evil or pure good, we all fall somewhere in between to different degrees of course..*


That is part of why I still see him as a sympathetic and to a certain degree empathetic character. 

If it wasn't the case as iMatt suggests then why would people continue to watch beyond season 2 in record numbers and receive such critical acclaim if it was a simple good vs. evil story which we have seen a million times.... why did iMatt continue to watch beyond season 2? Maybe because he was just waiting for Walt to get his "comeuppance".

But for me it was fascinating from the beginning to end because of the subtly... Not black, not white, but (I hate 50 shades of Grey stealing the expression) a multitude of shades of grey.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> If it wasn't the case as iMatt suggests then why would people continue to watch beyond season 2 in record numbers and receive such critical acclaim if it was a simple good vs. evil story which we have seen a million times.... why did iMatt continue to watch beyond season 2? Maybe because he was just waiting for Walt to get his "comeuppance".


Writing compelling, but unsympathetic characters is difficult, but there are many examples in literature where this has succeeded.

(Coincidentally enough, that part of the discussion topic for my writing class this week... perhaps I should ask them about Breaking Bad.)


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

screature said:


> That is part of why I still see him as a sympathetic and to a certain degree empathetic character.
> 
> If it wasn't the case as iMatt suggests then why would people continue to watch beyond season 2 in record numbers and receive such critical acclaim if it was a simple good vs. evil story which we have seen a million times.... why did iMatt continue to watch beyond season 2? Maybe because he was just waiting for Walt to get his "comeuppance".
> 
> But for me it was fascinating from the beginning to end because of the subtly... Not black, not white, but (I hate 50 shades of Grey stealing the expression) a multitude of shades of grey.


Two things:

1. You stopped just short of putting words in my mouth, but for the record I've never said this was "a simple good vs. evil story". Not even close.

2. I kept watching because it was a superbly plotted, written and acted tragedy. Yes, comeuppance is a traditional part of tragedy and I would have been disappointed if I'd hung around waiting for it. Lucky for me that was not why I kept watching. 

The story and entire fictional universe were brilliantly constructed, meticulously showing Walt's descent into *almost* pure evil, rationalizing it as "for the family" even though his scheme was visibly tearing his family to shreds. 

To me this was a story of a man so consumed by foolish pride and vanity that he is willing to follow his very darkest urges, even as he tries desperately to convince himself and others that he's doing something good for his family -- all for the sake of being remembered as anything but a nobody, even if it means being remembered as a monster. He is partially redeemed at the end, but it is only partial and comes at enormous cost. He'll still be remembered as a monster.

So no, I really, but *really* don't see the grey areas you're seeing, *or at least not the same ones,* but fortunately I didn't need them in order to be thoroughly and irredeemably hooked. I think there are many satisfied viewers who share a similar perspective. And as your take shows, it can work for other people in different ways.

There was another major reason to keep watching, mentioned by MacFury a few posts back: the dark and twisted MacGyver element. There was lots of pure entertainment value in seeing clever schemes brought to fruition, or a tough jam escaped with a brilliant hack (like the RV battery) even in the service of evil. And not just Walt's schemes either. Gus Fring taking out the entire cartel with poisoned tequila was another great scenario, among many.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> *Writing compelling, but unsympathetic characters is difficult, but there are many examples in literature where this has succeeded.*
> 
> (Coincidentally enough, that part of the discussion topic for my writing class this week... *perhaps I should ask them about Breaking Bad.*)


Undoubtedly. 

But how many times has it been over... let's say over 20 hours (think 20 chapters or acts) of real time theater/a novel, which are the next closest comparisons, historically speaking? 

That cuts the numbers of writers who accomplished this down even more.

Quite frankly I think Breaking Bad is more or less a modern day epic.

Absolutely!


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

MacUnited said:


> And the whole point of him loving his family unconditionally?


"I did it for me." - I think that is Walt finally giving up his lies and BS. 

IMO his partial redemption comes not from the supposed love of family, but from finally being honest about his motivations.



MacUnited said:


> I think what the show has succeeded is demonstrating that in real life there is no pure evil or pure good, we all fall somewhere in between to different degrees of course..


Maybe so, but more importantly the show did make the case that all evil is not equal.

Marie's kleptomania was bad, and it caused a temporary rift between her and her sister. But the show doesn't even begin to suggest light-fingered Marie was as bad as Heisenberg, "the man who knocks". 

Skyler's affair was bad, but small potatoes compared to Walt's antics.

etc. etc.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

iMatt said:


> "I did it for me." - I think that is Walt finally giving up his lies and BS.
> 
> IMO his partial redemption comes not from the supposed love of family, but from finally being honest about his motivations.
> 
> ...


See, you seem to want to be in the position to pass judgement...

I think the message of Breaking Bad is actually fundamentally to be against that presupposition. 

"Karma" will decide your "fate" better than any judge or jury.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Pass judgment? Well, I guess between pinching a $300 (or whatever) piece of jewellery or some collectible spoons and, say, letting a choking woman die, leading to her father's breakdown and a subsequent plane crash with hundreds of fatalities (an implausible storyline, but a riveting one nonetheless -- and Walt had clear if fleeting pangs of guilt over the crash), I will gladly and unequivocally go right ahead and pass judgment and say that letting the girl choke to death is worse. 

I honestly don't see how you can believe the show suggests these different "sins" are in any way equivalent. (If that's what you believe; I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at here.)


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

iMatt said:


> Pass judgment? Well, I guess between pinching a $300 (or whatever) piece of jewellery or some collectible spoons and, say, letting a choking woman die, leading to her father's breakdown and a subsequent plane crash with hundreds of fatalities (an implausible storyline, but a riveting one nonetheless -- and Walt had clear if fleeting pangs of guilt over the crash), I will gladly and unequivocally go right ahead and pass judgment and say that letting the girl choke to death is worse.
> 
> I honestly don't see how you can believe the show suggests these different "sins" are in any way equivalent. (If that's what you believe; *I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at here.*)


I'm 100% sure you don't get my point of view... thus that is why we will have to continue to have to disagree.

We simply aren't on the same page.

I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong, we just have differing points of view... and in the end that is a good thing.

Peace out. 

Breaking Bad was among the best shows/plays I have ever seen... 

On that I hope we can agree.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> See, you seem to want to be in the position to pass judgement...
> 
> I think the message of Breaking Bad is actually fundamentally to be against that presupposition.
> 
> "Karma" will decide your "fate" better than any judge or jury.


I agree with iMatt here. The audience is in a very good position to judge the differences between the crimes committed by the various characters and to rate and organize the characters according to culpability. I could easily take cut-outs of each character and organize them from least bad to most bad without a moment's hesitation.

I saw no grey areas. All I saw was that even in the worst character there might be something to admire or like, if forced to look at them long enough. That doesn't suggest to me that the characters occupy a grey moral area. Karma didn't get these people--they literally sowed the seeds of their own destruction in a very mechanical way through their own dreadfully selfish decisions, a much different outcome than a turning of the Karmic wheel.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I agree with iMatt here. The audience is in a very good position to judge the differences between the crimes committed by the various characters and to rate and organize the characters according to culpability. I could easily take cut-outs of each character and organize them from least bad to most bad without a moment's hesitation.
> 
> I saw no grey areas. All I saw was that even in the worst character there might be something to admire or like, if forced to look at them long enough. That doesn't suggest to me that the characters occupy a grey moral area. Karma didn't get these people--they literally sowed the seeds of their own destruction in a very mechanical way through their own dreadfully selfish decisions, a much different outcome than a turning of the Karmic wheel.


Yes I know Macfuty and why I will disagree with you as well.

Vive la difference.!!!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

To me, it's not about sins or evil. It's not even really about good or bad. It's a story about choices and consequences, and how some of those consequences lead to even tougher choices. 

Walt tried to be the man in control of his destiny, and when he was on his game, working as the persona of Heisenberg, things usually worked in his favor. He used his great intellect to his advantage. 

However, complications sometimes meant he had to do the reprehensible thing, like strangling Crazy 8 and melting his body into liquid goop. As awful as he—and we—found that course of action back at the start, eventually the bodies melting in Sulfuric acid routine became quite ordinary after some time. As Walt becomes thicker skinned, so do we as the audience. We build up our own tolerance for more and more morally questionable actions. We start to see "evil" drug dealers as people, maybe not just like us, but still people we can relate to on some level. The story can be horrible at times, but we can't look away, and that's the power of great storytelling.

One of my favorite moments was when Jesse did the Luke Skywalker thing, put the gun down, and told Walt if he wanted to be shot he'd have to donut himself. He chose not to be commanded by Mr. White anymore, and therein lay his freedom, both from being literally a slave to the Aryans, to being Heisenberg's go to boy. Jesse in this moment grew up because he chose a different path for his life.

Even Walt, for all the bad things he had done, still dies a sympathetic character and we're rooting for him right to the end. He frees Jesse, even if that was not part of his plan, but he does the right thing.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

fjnmusic said:


> Even Walt, for all the bad things he had done, still dies a sympathetic character and we're rooting for him right to the end. He frees Jesse, even if that was not part of his plan, but he does the right thing.


I was right with you up to here. To me, the only reason Walt dies an even remotely sympathetic character is that he is given a small measure of redemption in the finale.

He has finally clearly seen what he has become, and made partial amends. It was as close to a happy ending as could have been expected. Aside from that, I can't think of a redeeming feature in him for the previous three seasons or so.

I love antihero stories, but I find it weird to "root for" them. I get drawn in by them, and I think what happens is that when they are well crafted (think Tony Soprano), we fall under the same charismatic spell as the people in their fictional world, and so we can't get enough of them. Maybe it's just semantics, but I bristle at the idea of calling that "rooting for" an antihero, even when they have me on the edge of my seat wondering what brilliant move they're going to pull off next.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Even Walt, for all the bad things he had done, still dies a sympathetic character and we're rooting for him right to the end.


Rooting for him? Wanting to see as many of his machinations as can fit into the series. Wanting him to kill other badasses, certainly. Hoping things work out for Skyler and the kids. He's not even a sympathetic character, just a fascinating one.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'll add that what usually makes me turn against a fascinating villain is the moment when they intentionally intend to destroy a true innocent. Part of the genius of the series is that Walter was not allowed to do that. Each of his direct victims were already tainted.

Let me throw out a question. Who remained truly sympathetic to Walter after the innocent boy was shot at the train heist, and Walter refused to turn Todd in?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Macfury said:


> I'll add that what usually makes me turn against a fascinating villain is the moment when they intentionally intend to destroy a true innocent. Part of the genius of the series is that Walter was not allowed to do that. Each of his direct victims were already tainted.
> 
> Let me throw out a question. Who remained truly sympathetic to Walter after the innocent boy was shot at the train heist, and Walter refused to turn Todd in?


I'd have to say Saul Goodman, twisted and corrupt as he is. Maybe that's why he gets his own TV series--he's a fascinating anti-hero himself.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> I'd have to say Saul Goodman, twisted and corrupt as he is. Maybe that's why he gets his own TV series--he's a fascinating anti-hero himself.


I heard that it was to be a comedy series. Wonder if it takes place prior to the meeting with Walt, et al?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> I heard that it was to be a comedy series. Wonder if it takes place prior to the meeting with Walt, et al?


That's the word on the street. Be nice to get Huell out of that room he's been waiting in too. Bob Odenkirk has done comedy shows before, more sketch-like though.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> That's the word on the street. Be nice to get Huell out of that room he's been waiting in too. Bob Odenkirk has done comedy shows before, more sketch-like though.


Yes, it should be an interesting comedy if they handle it correctly. Who knows, Jesse may pop in as his first client. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> To me, it's not about sins or evil. It's not even really about good or bad. It's a story about choices and consequences, and how some of those consequences lead to even tougher choices.
> 
> Walt tried to be the man in control of his destiny, and when he was on his game, working as the persona of Heisenberg, things usually worked in his favor. He used his great intellect to his advantage.
> 
> ...


Yep that is pretty much it fjnmusic. Well put.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> I'd have to say Saul Goodman, twisted and corrupt as he is. Maybe that's why he gets his own TV series--he's a fascinating anti-hero himself.


I meant which viewer continued to see Walt in a "grey area" after allowing a child to be murdered, unavenged.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I meant which viewer continued to see Walt in a "grey area" *after allowing a child to be murdered*, unavenged.


How exactly could he have stopped Todd?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> How exactly could he have stopped Todd?


He did not turn in Todd, or allow the parents to know what had happened. At that point, it's hard for me to see how people could have seen Walt as someone populating a grey area.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> He did not turn in Todd, or allow the parents to know what had happened. At that point, it's hard for me to see how people could have seen Walt as someone populating a grey area.


How could he turn in Todd when that when mean his own incarceration?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> How could he turn in Todd when that when mean his own incarceration?


He couldn't and at that point he left the last vestige of the grey area behind.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Macfury said:


> He couldn't and at that point he left the last vestige of the grey area behind.


You know I generally agree with you on this, but it is hard to deny that the producers intended for us to root for Walt. It was a neat trick in that those so inclined could do that, but the rest of us could still be completely sucked in by the show.

It's crystal clear from the finale. 

Ultimate comeuppance would have been Walt healthy, penniless, his family dead. What we got instead is those infamous shades of grey: a much milder form of comeuppance in which he sets up his family with millions, kills all the baddies, frees Jesse, then dies in his happy place. Those developments all look to me like they're meant to satisfy people rooting for Walt.

But without necessarily saying it outright, some people seem to be receiving this as a "happy" ending of some sort. His family is still shattered, his wife still in a heap of trouble, his son will always hate him, Hank is still dead, there were countless other victims both direct and indirect. I see way, way more black than grey there.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Macfury said:


> I meant which viewer continued to see Walt in a "grey area" after allowing a child to be murdered, unavenged.


I'd say this viewer. Me. While it is true the kid on the bike died needlessly (wrong place at the wrong time), and while the manner of disposal if his body was beyond forgiveness, it was not Walt's decision to kill the boy. Todd read between the lines as far as "no one must know about this," but it was not something Walt had ordered. I found this to be the place where the series became the darkest and most uncomfortable. The kid's parents would never know what happened to him after he disappeared.

However, it would be very naive to judge the morality if the show based on who "deserved to die." Real life does not work that way. Sometimes innocent people die for no reason, and guilty people get lucky and get away scot free. That's just the way it is. If you killed a child driving home one day, it ultimately wouldn't matter whether you were you drunk or not. The child would be dead all the same and you would have to deal with the guilt somehow. 

Walt carries on because he believes he is doing the wrong things for the right reasons, to protect his family, and it doesn't hit home until his brother-in-law is sacrificed. His family is no longer untouchable. Ultimately he himself is the biggest threat to his family, a fact he doesn't realize until too late. As Skyler suggests, someone needs to protect this family from the man who protects this family. 

So if not actually "rooting" for Walt, I know I at least was curious to see how he would try to achieve the goals he set out for himself. Since he was able to provide financially for his family upon his death, and having freed Jesse from his spell, and killed many "bad guys" directly and indirectly, oddly enough Walt emerges from the story at the very end as a hero. Now that's a fascinating story, one where the protagonist is both hero and anti-hero at the same time.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Walt carries on because he believes he is doing the wrong things for the right reasons, to protect his family, and it doesn't hit home until his brother-in-law is sacrificed.


Thankfully, the program finale makes it clear that claiming he was doing it for his family was a lie. As well. he had enough money with which to feather the family nest early on.



fjnmusic said:


> So if not actually "rooting" for Walt, I know I at least was curious to see how he would try to achieve the goals he set out for himself. Since he was able to provide financially for his family upon his death, and having freed Jesse from his spell, and killed many "bad guys" directly and indirectly, oddly enough Walt emerges from the story at the very end as a hero. Now that's a fascinating story, one where the protagonist is both hero and anti-hero at the same time.


I did not see him as a hero, but a destroyer of lives. At the very best, the ending was a satisfying way of seeing him die. At the very least he eliminated the possibility of retribution from the gang he brought into the lives of his family. I could root for the plan, but not for the man.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

As the Breaking Bad marathon continues on AMC, here's a story of a real life Walter White--literally--who made a fortune making crystal meth until he got caught. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2515380/Meet-real-life-Walter-White.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

After a month marathon. I watched all five seasons on netflix
I am a little torn with the way it ended. Peeved Jesse got away, never liked him.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> Peeved Jesse got away, never liked him.


I don't think he's quite going to enjoy his life the way he used to.

And starring in _Need for Speed_ is punishment enough.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Macfury said:


> I don't think he's quite going to enjoy his life the way he used to.
> 
> And starring in _Need for Speed_ is punishment enough.


Woke up angry this morning. Wife laughed and said take it easy its not real 
I guess on to the good wife then banshee. Please tell me that ends better?


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