# Idle No More - off your radar?



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Surprising that there has been no other discussion so far about Idle No More...*

*Idle No More: Alberta Highway 63 Blockade Near Fort McMurray By First Nations Movement*

_The leader of an aboriginal community near the Alberta oilsands says the federal government is clearing the way for development on traditional land.

Chief Alan Adam of the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation says Ottawa's omnibus budget legislation weakens environmental protection in Canada.

He says oilsands projects have already sullied rivers and lakes in the area and the budget bill — quote — "gives the green light to destroy the rest."

Adam's comments came as he joined a highway blockade north of Fort McMurray that was part of the aboriginal Idle No More movement.

Protests and marches have been held country-wide in recent weeks to demand the Conservative government reverse the legislation that First Nations say will affect treaties and traditional land use_.​
(HuffingtonPost)

* * * 

Idle No More Prepares Ottawa Protest As Hunger-Striking Chief Appeals To Harper

_On the eve of a day of aboriginal protest, the hunger-striking chief of the troubled Attawapiskat First Nation is again calling for a meeting with the prime minister and Canada's governor general.

Chief Theresa Spence issued an open letter Thursday to Stephen Harper and Gov. Gen. David Johnston, urging them to embark on a national discussion about the state of poverty among aboriginal communities.

Spence, who began a hunger strike Dec. 11, says many First Nations communities face impoverished conditions, despite assurances from the government that progress is being made to alleviate poverty.

"Land and natural resources continue to be reaped by the federal and provincial governments through taxation of corporate resource companies with little compensation to First Nations for use of our traditional territories," Spence wrote.

"Trilateral discussions and financial action plans must be committed to in order to alleviate the existing state of poverty."_​
(HuffingtonPost)


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

Nothing more than leeches whining for more handouts, IMO. Couldn't care less.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

No need to give this its own topic. Next time let it languish in the Canadian Politics thread.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

John Clay said:


> Nothing more than leeches whining for more handouts, IMO. Couldn't care less.


Well, that was a pretty typical, and expected, response.

For those who care to think a bit more deeply:

_Spence’s hunger strike is not just about Attawapiskat. It is not just about housing or school funding. And it is not just about the omnibus budget Bill C-45, which eliminates federally protected waterways and facilitates the sale of reserve lands without consultation. It is about all of that and more.

Spence’s hunger strike is part of the Idle No More movement, which, in a matter of days, has become the largest, most unified, and potentially most transformative Indigenous movement at least since the Oka resistance in 1990.

The fundamental issue is the nation-to-nation treaty relationship with Indigenous peoples that Canadian governments repeatedly flout by passing legislation without free, prior and informed consent.

(SNIP)

Why should non-Indigenous Canadians care?

First, it is a matter of social and environmental justice. When corporate profit is privileged over the health of our lands and waters, we all suffer. When government stifles debate, democracy is diminished. Bill C-45 is just the latest in a slew of legislation that undermines Canadians’ rights. In standing against it, the First Nations are standing for us too._​


(Toronto Star)


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Because the last time the issue of our government's lack of response to the concerns of indigenous peoples came up the responses from ehMacers made me ashamed to be a part of this community. 

Nothing's changed. 

I strongly advocate this movement but I'll do it elsewhere because I find it disgusting that a forum that makes a big deal about censoring four letter words will tolerate ehMacer's calling some of our friends, colleagues, and a respected first nations leader "leeches".


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Well, that changes everything.... yawnnnnnnnn. Hunger strikes are a juvenile method of getting attention. Put this stuff in the politics thread where it belongs.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

cap10subtext said:


> I strongly advocate this movement but I'll do it elsewhere because I find it disgusting that a forum that makes a big deal about censoring four letter words will tolerate ehMacer's calling some of our friends, colleagues, and a respected first nations leader "leeches".


While I don't consider them leeches, I respect a person's right to hold that opinion. If you believe that someone is a leech, what does it matter if they are someone's friends, colleagues, or leader?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

As usual, avoid the actual topic at hand, and go on seeking to distract. You are painfully predictable.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> As usual, avoid the actual topic at hand, and go on seeking to distract. You are painfully predictable.


Distract from what? This thread is practically a ghost town. 

Please carry on with your discussion.


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

The topic is simple. Billions of dollars a year of Canadians' hard earned money goes up to resorts and just disappears into the ether. Most reserves get a more than similar sized communities outside of reserves get in total revenue, yet nothing gets done and the money is nowhere to be found. Then they pull these stunts to try to extort more money that just disappears too.

Canadians are tired of their antics. Rather than talking about what we can do for them, it's time to show some tough love and cut them off.


...that the kind of discussion you were looking for Mark?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

heavyall said:


> The topic is simple. Billions of dollars a year of Canadians' hard earned money goes up to resorts and just disappears into the ether. Most reserves get a more than similar sized communities outside of reserves get in total revenue, yet nothing gets done and the money is nowhere to be found. Then they pull these stunts to try to extort more money that just disappears too.
> 
> Canadians are tired of their antics. Rather than talking about what we can do for them, it's time to show some tough love and cut them off.
> 
> ...


I suspect he wants you to view the whole incident as some sort of dynamic expression of the people's aspiration to socialism. If you can't say something nice about it, don't say it at all.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

heavyall said:


> The topic is simple. Billions of dollars a year of Canadians' hard earned money goes up to resorts and just disappears into the ether. Most reserves get a more than similar sized communities outside of reserves get in total revenue, yet nothing gets done and the money is nowhere to be found. Then they pull these stunts to try to extort more money that just disappears too.
> 
> Canadians are tired of their antics. Rather than talking about what we can do for them, it's time to show some tough love and cut them off.
> 
> ...


Thanks for more eloquently conveying my train of thought.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

cap10subtext said:


> Because the last time the issue of our government's lack of response to the concerns of indigenous peoples came up the responses from ehMacers made me ashamed to be a part of this community.
> 
> Nothing's changed.
> 
> I strongly advocate this movement but I'll do it elsewhere because I find it disgusting that a forum that makes a big deal about censoring four letter words will tolerate ehMacer's calling some of our friends, colleagues, and a respected first nations leader "leeches".


If you're loafing about on our tax dollars, then damn straight you're a leech.

We've more atoned for the sins of our forefathers, and continuing to pay off the Native bands is just enabling them and justifying these absurd protests.

To put it bluntly:
We came, we saw, we conquered - and then we paid them off for hundreds of years. Enough is enough.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

'we' never conquered, that is part of today's problem. 

We cut a lot of deals, then never lived up to them. We created a culture of racial segregation, financial dependence, and crutches (like apartheid?) and have had to live with the consequences ever since. 

'Conquering' is no longer an option, as it requires distasteful stuff like rape and genocide to be effective.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

John Clay said:


> If you're loafing about on our tax dollars, then damn straight you're a leech.
> 
> We've more atoned for the sins of our forefathers, and continuing to pay off the Native bands is just enabling them and justifying these absurd protests.
> 
> ...


Oh sorry, I forgot you have no idea what you are talking about. My mistake. Carry on with your plan for genocide. I guess I should have remembered that ehMac is a short stone's throw from La La-land.

Just remember it's never too late to educate yourself on the matters you are woefully out of touch with.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Fine. Y'all just sit back and continue complaining about them damn lazy ****** taking your tax dollars, and ignoring the wider ramifications of Harper's policies, and I'm sure all will continue as normal in your tiny worlds.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> Fine. Y'all just sit back and continue complaining about them damn lazy ****** taking your tax dollars, and ignoring the wider ramifications of Harper's policies, and I'm sure all will continue as normal in your tiny worlds.


I wondered how long it was going to be before I'd see Harper's name mentioned. 

Come on CM, the Indian Act is as old as Methuselah, it and a lot of other issues need to be brought into the 21st century.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

vancouverdave said:


> 'we' never conquered, that is part of today's problem.
> 
> We cut a lot of deals, then never lived up to them. We created a culture of racial segregation, financial dependence, and crutches (like apartheid?) and have had to live with the consequences ever since.
> 
> 'Conquering' is no longer an option, as it requires distasteful stuff like rape and genocide to be effective.


An excellent point, vancouverdave. Sadly, many of the success stories by First Nations people are, at times, lost in the incidents of abuse of the funds that they receive. Paix, mon ami.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> Well, that was a pretty typical, and expected, response.
> 
> For those who care to think a bit more deeply:
> 
> ...


Why should I care as an old white guy, well the treaty, an advanced form of contract between nations was signed on our behalf. 

I hate to be thought of as a chincy weaselling liar.

So for everyone who feels great about not honouring a signed agreement know ye of how you are being perceived. How the Government is being perceived. Embrace & enjoy you status on the world stage.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

cap10subtext said:


> Oh sorry, I forgot you have no idea what you are talking about. My mistake. Carry on with your plan for genocide. I guess I should have remembered that ehMac is a short stone's throw from La La-land.
> 
> Just remember it's never too late to educate yourself on the matters you are woefully out of touch with.


Who said anything about genocide? I said cut off the Native groups from their special funding, and treat them like the ordinary Canadians that they are.

I abhor genocide, as any sane person would, and to imply otherwise is insulting.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

I love the concept of "Idle no more" if that means stop waiting for someone else to fix your problems. Taking the bull by the horns so to speak and tackling the social issues head on. Stop letting chiefs extort unaccountable money from the government that never makes it to the guy it was intended for. I hope thats what they really mean with this movement since throwing loads of cash at them has been a failure for decades. Can't recall the name but there is a chief in BC thats done just that and he's making great strides.


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

The claim that we aren't living up to the treaties is rich. Have you ever read those treaties? I have, and most of them amount to little more than the reserve land, a school house, a medicine chest, and $5 a year. What they are getting now is several orders of magnitude more than was ever agreed to.

Generations later, they're trying to change the terms of their ancestors real estate deal. A house my parents sold for $50k is now going for over $300k. Should I show up and demand that the new owners pay me the difference? What about the beautiful stone building outside of Prague that my great grandfather built and was forced out of by the Soviets? That place is like a small castle. I should demand reparations from both the Czech Republic, and Russia, right? A couple million at least, right? Lots of Jews in my family too, I should demand money from Germany too, right? Huge contingent of Anabaptists throughout both side of my family too. Now THOSE guys were displaced and persecuted, big time. Surely someone should be paying me off for that!

The answer to all of that is no. I wasn't alive when any of that happened, and neither was anyone who is around today. Nobody owes ME anything, we were all born into the situation we have now, and it's up to us to make do.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

On a related note... Bruce Allen, who does a very short (about 2 mins) radio segment called Reality Check, touched on this issue this week.
Go here, and look for the Dec. 19th episode called, "Missing Women Report".

Love him or hate him, at least the man speaks his mind.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

gwillikers said:


> On a related note... Bruce Allen, who does a very short (about 2 mins) radio segment called Reality Check, touched on this issue this week.
> .


He makes a very valid point.


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## partsguy (Jul 24, 2012)

MacGuiver said:


> I love the concept of "Idle no more" if that means stop waiting for someone else to fix your problems. Taking the bull by the horns so to speak and tackling the social issues head on. Stop letting chiefs extort unaccountable money from the government that never makes it to the guy it was intended for. I hope thats what they really mean with this movement since throwing loads of cash at them has been a failure for decades. Can't recall the name but there is a chief in BC thats done just that and he's making great strides.


You're thinking of  Clarence Louie, Chief of the Osoyoos Indian Band

Everyone should watch the extended video linked to above.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

partsguy said:


> You're thinking of  Clarence Louie, Chief of the Osoyoos Indian Band
> 
> Everyone should watch the extended video linked to above.


Thats the guy. Thanks partsguy.

He has some vision to fix their problems beyond government handouts and has been a huge success for his people.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

gwillikers said:


> On a related note... Bruce Allen, who does a very short (about 2 mins) radio segment called Reality Check, touched on this issue this week.
> Go here, and look for the Dec. 19th episode called, "Missing Women Report".
> 
> Love him or hate him, at least the man speaks his mind.


Yep, he cuts right to the chase with the truth.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

John Clay: If you so abhor genocide, "Conquered" has nothing to do with this discussion. We are bad neighbors and the problem isn't just about money. Of course it's always going to seem like people asking for handouts because every solution will have a dollar sign attached. As does everything. But idle no more has as much to do with ensuring environmental consultation and real world solutions. Let's start with houses built to suit the conditions they inhabit, making sure schools are adequately built and supported to include a culturally appropriate curriculum and better supporting those systems of social support that work, including informal networks.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

cap10subtext said:


> Let's start with houses built to suit the conditions they inhabit, making sure schools are adequately built and supported to include a culturally appropriate curriculum and better supporting those systems of social support that work, including informal networks.


Let's start with having them move to climates where they don't have to build housing to fight off extreme weather. 

Culturally appropriate curriculum? Their curriculum isn't appropriate to Canadian culture? 

If informal social support works best, I assume it will come from friends and neighbours in the community. Informal social support in my community never has a price tag.


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

cap10subtext said:


> John Clay: If you so abhor genocide, "Conquered" has nothing to do with this discussion. We are bad neighbors and the problem isn't just about money. Of course it's always going to seem like people asking for handouts because every solution will have a dollar sign attached. As does everything. But idle no more has as much to do with ensuring environmental consultation and real world solutions. Let's start with houses built to suit the conditions they inhabit, making sure schools are adequately built and supported to include a culturally appropriate curriculum and better supporting those systems of social support that work, including informal networks.


They are getting billions of dollars a year. Other northern communities build appropriate housing and schools with significantly less resources available to them. Curriculum? I thought they wanted self-determination? Which is it? Do we dictate what to teach, or let them do what they want? The education budgets alone on northern reserves are astronomical compared to other off-reserve northern communities. 

They get FAR more than we spend on ourselves, they just light it on fire and hold their hands out for more. You want to know who is "Idle No More"? ME. I'm sick of my tax dollars being wasted like this.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Let's start with having them move to climates where they don't have to build housing to fight off extreme weather.
> .


I believe 'they' hold the fort for the rest of us. If Canadian aboriginals did not populate the north, we might have to cede it to the Russians. Some might say we are lucky they are still willing to stake out these territories where their homes once were. 

Having said that, I also support progressive solutions to old problems created by archaic policies.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

vancouverdave said:


> I believe 'they' hold the fort for the rest of us. If Canadian aboriginals did not populate the north, we might have to cede it to the Russians. Some might say we are lucky they are still willing to stake out these territories where their homes once were.
> 
> Having said that, I also support progressive solutions to old problems created by archaic policies.


With current northern resource development, some communities are necessary to provide workers and other services to those industries, but they will be created (or maintained) out of economic needs.

I seriously doubt that the Russians (or whoever) would cede any claims to to northern lands because a few people lived in a few isolated communities. If they came, however, they would certainly administer a "progressive" government solution for those people.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

Macfury said:


> If they came, however, they would certainly administer a "progressive" government solution for those people.


Haha - brilliant response. Made me laugh.

Glad I don't live in Russia, though.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

For those who continue to think this is just a "natives" issue... Here's a map of the _Idle No More_ rallies held to date...

(Google Maps link)
*
Static map as of 22 Dec 2012:*


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CM, there are underemployed people all over the world who will be happy to attend these things if someone tweets at them.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Prediction: "Idle No More" = "Occupy Movement" = Pfffffft.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

partsguy said:


> You're thinking of  Clarence Louie, Chief of the Osoyoos Indian Band
> 
> Everyone should watch the extended video linked to above.


That's excellent stuff.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

CubaMark said:


> For those who continue to think this is just a "natives" issue... Here's a map of the _Idle No More_ rallies held to date...


The challenge with this thread, CubaMark, is that it (the news article) Headlines with an (aboriginal) blockade, and not with the actual issue: *Harper's gutting of Environment Canada, sneaky removal of canadian environmental protection laws, and fast-tracking of environmental assessments*


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Sure, of course, when all else fails, blame Harper.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

SINC said:


> Sure, of course, when all else fails, blame Harper.


My grandmother used to blame bad weather on Diefenbaker.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

SINC said:


> Sure, of course, when all else fails, blame Harper.


Fine, substitute "Current Government" for "Harper" if you want, the effect is the same:

*Current Government's gutting of Environment Canada, sneaky removal of canadian environmental protection laws, and fast-tracking of environmental assessments*


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I was hinting that if you went back, oh say about a hundred years or so, (and every year since), you could find bad native policy from every single government ever elected. Blaming the last one is blaming them for perhaps 1% of the trouble while the other 99% lies with previous governments.


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

SINC said:


> I was hinting that if you went back, oh say about a hundred years or so, (and every year since), you could find bad native policy from every single government ever elected. Blaming the last one is blaming them for perhaps 1% of the trouble while the other 99% lies with previous governments.


Absolutely. This government, at worst, is at least less bad than the ones that preceded it. Blaming them for what we have now is silly at best, and really takes away from what little credibility this movement may have had going in.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

vancouverdave said:


> The challenge with this thread, CubaMark, is that it (the news article) Headlines with an (aboriginal) blockade, and not with the actual issue: *Harper's gutting of Environment Canada, sneaky removal of canadian environmental protection laws, and fast-tracking of environmental assessments*


All of these topics have already been covered in the Canadian Politics thread. Again, why begin a new one for this?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Maybe because in a dedicated thread it's less easy for certain people to employ the usual tactics of distraction? 

Off to the in-laws until post-Xmas. This thread is yours for a few days, please don't break it. 

M


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Maybe because in a dedicated thread it's less easy for certain people to employ the usual tactics of distraction?


The term "distraction" involves the acceptance of a valid underlying issue. 

Thread dismissed.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

SINC said:


> I was hinting that if you went back, oh say about a hundred years or so, (and every year since), you could find bad native policy from every single government ever elected. Blaming the last one is blaming them for perhaps 1% of the trouble while the other 99% lies with previous governments.


My point was (per Cuba's concerns) that regardless of native policy; Harper gutted Environment Canada, removed canadian environmental protection laws (as a part of the recent budget), and is legislating the fast-tracking of environmental assessments. 

Nothing to do with government's native policy (past or present)

Yes, this thread is schizophrenic.


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

vancouverdave said:


> Harper gutted Environment Canada, removed canadian environmental protection laws (as a part of the recent budget), and is legislating the fast-tracking of environmental assessments.


He didn't really do any of those things, at least not in the way you imply. Duplication in services were removed sure, but that is a good thing. Nothing was left "unprotected", we just have a much clearer line as to who is and is not responsible. Streamlining the assessment process is long overdue too. People need to know what can and can't be done in a timely manner. When a farmer's field floods, he shouldn't have to miss an entire growing season (or more) before he knows if he is or is not allowed to pump the water out.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Mi’kmaq mall for a day*












> THE FIRST-EVER FLASH MOB happened in 2003 in a New York City department store.
> 
> Of the thousands that have happened since, few can claim the symbolism of Sunday’s mob in Dartmouth, when hundreds of Mi’kmaq people and their supporters showed up to sing, dance and briefly take over the heart of the Mic Mac Mall.
> 
> ...


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

CubaMark said:


> *Mi&#146;kmaq mall for a day*


... Bill C-45, the federal government’s omnibus budget legislation, drastically cuts down on protection for Canada’s waterways....


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

vancouverdave said:


> ... Bill C-45, the federal government's omnibus budget legislation, drastically cuts down on protection for Canada's waterways....


Where is there any evidence that this is so? What protection was actually in place that is no longer available? Can anyone name a lake or river that C-45 specifically causes to no longer be protected by any level of government?

From what I've read in the bill, all that has changed is reduced redundancy. Provincial oversight is now recognized instead of being undermined federally. I see no "thou shalt not protect" clauses anywhere.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

heavyall said:


> Where is there any evidence that this is so? What protection was actually in place that is no longer available? Can anyone name a lake or river that C-45 specifically causes to no longer be protected by any level of government?
> 
> From what I've read in the bill, all that has changed is reduced redundancy. Provincial oversight is now recognized instead of being undermined federally. I see no "thou shalt not protect" clauses anywhere.


Since it's your proposition that lakes and rivers are Provincially and Municipally protected as well. Why don't you please provide the information that there was indeed redundancy in Provincial statues and Municipal bylaws.

I know I would would be interested (as well many other Ehmacians) to investigate the level of protection/restriction upon all water courses that will no longer be protected by the "Navigable Waters Act."


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

BigDL said:


> Since it's your proposition that lakes and rivers are Provincially and Municipally protected as well. Why don't you please provide the information that there was indeed redundancy in Provincial statues and Municipal bylaws.
> 
> I know I would would be interested (as well many other Ehmacians) to investigate the level of protection/restriction upon all water courses that will no longer be protected by the "Navigable Waters Act."


I'm not the one claiming protection has been removed. I don't see any evidence that bears this out, I'm asking for the people who are so sure that it's the case to show me what I'm missing.

edit:

For instance, Manitoba's Water Protections Act is still in place.The Water Protection Handbook hasn't been banned.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

heavyall said:


> Where is there any evidence that this is so? What protection was actually in place that is no longer available? Can anyone name a lake or river that C-45 specifically causes to no longer be protected by any level of government?
> 
> From what I've read in the bill, all that has changed is reduced redundancy. Provincial oversight is now recognized instead of being undermined federally. I see no "thou shalt not protect" clauses anywhere.


The amendments posted below replace the word "fish" with "fisheries". All of a sudden, the act no longer apples to non-commercial habitats. (most of Canada). 

http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=5942521&File=128

These subtleties are difficult to spot, as they are buried in a BUDGET document.


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## rondini (Dec 6, 2001)

No fan of Harper and his gang of idiots, but I get tired of the automatic assumption that First Nation's people are automatically better stewards of the resources on our land than the bad old white man.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

rondini said:


> No fan of Harper and his gang of idiots, but I get tired of the automatic assumption that First Nation's people are automatically better stewards of the resources on our land than the bad old white man.


True. I think of them as a sort of 'opposition' party. They make good points, but have their own agendas, just like the rest of us. I am a bit of a Green party fan myself, understanding that they might not be the best to run a country, but they do address significant shortcomings in Harper's policies.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Those of you who still are confused about the funding arrangements and accountability of Canada's native bands might want to take a look at this (and go beyond the quote to the full article, if I may suggest):


_Many people seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that all or even most First Nations have self-governance and run themselves freely. This is far from the truth, but given that most Canadians are familiar with the municipal model, the confusion is actually understandable. It isn't as though Canada does a very good job of teaching people about the Indian Act.

Section 61(1)(a-k) of the Indian Act details that: "With the consent of the council of a band, the Minister may authorize and direct the expenditure of capital moneys of the band" for various purposes.

What this means is that Ministerial approval is actually a requirement before any capital expenditures can occur on reserve. In practice, a Band will generally pass a Band Council Resolution (BCR) authorising a certain expenditure (say on housing), and that BCR must be forwarded to INAC for approval.

That's right. Most First Nations have to get permission before they can spend money. That is the opposite of "doing whatever they want" with the money. Bands are micromanaged to an extent unseen in nearly any other context that does not involve a minor or someone who lacks capacity due to mental disability.

Any claims that INAC has no control over what Bands spend their money on is false._​
(HuffingtonPostCanada)


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## partsguy (Jul 24, 2012)

Additionally, they are not allowed to put a mortgage on their land, which is their main asset, so in order to do any sort of entrepreneurial development they have to go and ask the government for money.

I'm all for leveling the playing field.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

partsguy said:


> Additionally, *they are not allowed to put a mortgage on their land*, which is their main asset, so in order to do any sort of entrepreneurial development they have to go and ask the government for money.
> 
> I'm all for leveling the playing field.


But this makes perfect sense becuase being that the land is designated as first nations land a mortgage would be meaningless, if the band defaulted on the mortgage the lender could never takeover ownership of the land.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Those of you who still are confused about the funding arrangements and accountability of Canada's native bands might want to take a look at this (and go beyond the quote to the full article, if I may suggest):
> 
> 
> _Many people seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that all or even most First Nations have self-governance and run themselves freely. This is far from the truth, but given that most Canadians are familiar with the municipal model, the confusion is actually understandable. It isn't as though Canada does a very good job of teaching people about the Indian Act.
> ...


There is a difference between approving a submitted plan and budget and actually controlling how the money is spent and on what it actually ends up paying for... this is something the author fails to acknowledge.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

screature said:


> There is a difference between approving a submitted plan and budget and actually controlling how the money is spent and on what it actually ends up paying for... this is something the author fails to acknowledge.


_From the same article:_

*Okay fine, but where did it go?*

_Attawapiskat publishes its financial statements going back to 2005. If you want to know where the money was spent, you can look in the *audited financial reports*. This document (PDF), for example, provides a breakdown of all program funding.

Just getting to this stage alone proves false the claim that there is no accountability and no one knows where the money goes._​


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> _From the same article:_
> 
> *Okay fine, but where did it go?*
> 
> ...


Sure it is on record but it doesn't mean the money was spent exactly according to the initial plan now does it?


----------



## partsguy (Jul 24, 2012)

screature said:


> But this makes perfect sense becuase being that the land is designated as first nations land a mortgage would be meaningless, if the band defaulted on the mortgage the lender could never takeover ownership of the land.


Absolutely true. It's almost impossible to make any sort of collections on reserve land, including repossessions. For that reason natives living on reserves have a handicap when it comes to obtaining credit of almost any kind.


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

partsguy said:


> I'm all for levelling the playing field.


Me too. So, no more Indian Act, or money from Ottawa? Let them join the Great Melting Pot, like everyone else.



screature said:


> Sure it is on record but it doesn't mean the money was spent exactly according to the initial plan now does it?


Right.

This Chief who is on a hunger strike now, was a thorn in the Government's side, when they were trying to get a handle on what the Band did with allotted funds. Why she wants to meet Harpoon is beyond me. I wouldn't cross the street to sneer at him.


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

iMouse said:


> Me too. So, no more Indian Act, or money from Ottawa? Let them join the Great Melting Pot, like everyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently no bounds to ignorance.


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

CBC commented on the independent audit report, that they have latched-on to.

"Due diligence? WTF is *that*???"_ - Theresa Spence. _

Stay tuned for more fun and games.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

iMouse said:


> CBC commented on the independent audit report, that they have latched-on to.
> 
> "Due diligence? WTF is *that*???"_ - Theresa Spence. _
> 
> Stay tuned for more fun and games.


Good to add a link.


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Good to add a link.


CBC2??

Heard it on the 10:00 AM news.

So shoot me. tptptptp


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Good to add a link.


But here ya go Sport. 

Attawapiskat audit finds 'no evidence of due diligence' - Politics - CBC News


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

iMouse said:


> But here ya go Sport.
> 
> Attawapiskat audit finds 'no evidence of due diligence' - Politics - CBC News


Wow! CBC reporting critically of native finances. Pigs do fly.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

iMouse said:


> But here ya go Sport.
> 
> Attawapiskat audit finds 'no evidence of due diligence' - Politics - CBC News


Thanks!



> Some of the details of specific transactions are blacked out in the copy obtained by CBC News, *but in some cases, the report shows expenditures of five and six figures without any supporting documentation found by the audit.*


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Thanks!


Your welcome, and thanks for letting me pull your leg.



> Some of the details of specific transactions are blacked out in the copy obtained by CBC News, *but in some cases, the report shows expenditures of five and six figures without any supporting documentation found by the audit.*


Why can't I have that kind of power?? 

I demand a do-over!!!


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Well this kind of proves what the government has been saying all along... So much for CM's link to the aboriginal lawyers article. I think most of us knew it was politically motivated and had little relation to on the ground reality.


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## partsguy (Jul 24, 2012)

'Lack of due diligence' doesn't mean the money hasn't been spent appropriately, just means that they can't show to certain standards how the money was spent. But it's not a good sign that they were getting the best value for our (the taxpayer's) dollar.

It will be interesting to find out how & where the money was spent, and how purchasing decisions were made.

There are many Indian Bands in Canada which function very well, with good councils, appropriate administrative control, and 'due diligence' over spending the money they have. I look at some of the Treaty 7 nations in Southern Alberta as an example of 'good governance'. Unfortunately not all Indian Bands have 'common good' in mind, and the leaders live very well, at the expense of the more vulnerable or less influential in their community.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

partsguy said:


> '*Lack of due diligence*' doesn't mean the money hasn't been spent appropriately, just means that they can't show to certain standards how the money was spent. But it's not a good sign that they were getting the best value for our (the taxpayer's) dollar.
> 
> It will be interesting to find out how & where the money was spent, and how purchasing decisions were made.
> 
> There are many Indian Bands in Canada which function very well, with good councils, appropriate administrative control, and 'due diligence' over spending the money they have. I look at some of the Treaty 7 nations in Southern Alberta as an example of 'good governance'. Unfortunately not all Indian Bands have 'common good' in mind, and the leaders live very well, at the expense of the more vulnerable or less influential in their community.


Means we will most likely never know...


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

screature said:


> Well this kind of proves what the government has been saying all along... So much for CM's link to the aboriginal lawyers article. I think most of us knew it was politically motivated and had little relation to on the ground reality.


And the hunger strike just before the report's release might be a shrewd move as well. 



partsguy said:


> 'Lack of due diligence' doesn't mean the money hasn't been spent appropriately, just means that they can't show to certain standards how the money was spent.


True.

Perhaps when the blacked-out portions are revealed, we can ask some of the payees what their sum was for.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Normally I'm fairly liberal minded on this topic, but I have to wonder just how many aboriginals there are in Canada and exactly how much we spend on them........ Just wondering how much per capita.


----------



## partsguy (Jul 24, 2012)

screature said:


> Means we will most likely never know...


I think we'll find out 'where' the majority of it went quite easily - there are banking records, and it's hard to spend that much as 'cash'. 

But whether it was the best value, (or for any value towards the specific items the money was intended to spent upon) is the question.

Accountability & responsibility have always been the issues.

It's a complex subject because Indian Affairs has been in charge of the big spending, but the Indian Bands also don't want Indian Affairs involved, citing their independent nature. And then stuff like this happens.

But whose money is it? It's not 'government' money, because the government doesn't actually have any money. It's taxpayer's money. I'm a taxpayer. It's mine. I want to know where it went.

Municipalities have to provide accountability to their taxpayers. Can you imagine the taxpayer revolt that would take place if any of our towns or cities didn't put projects out to tender, or somehow insist on proper value for the money spent, and didn't provide 'due diligence' when spending taxpayer dollars? Even provinces and the Federal Government have someone overseeing their spending, and have rules about conflict of interest.

I'm not one to call for 'public inquiries' at the drop of a hat, but I think it is time for an open and thorough investigation of ALL aspects of taxpayer funding of these Indian Bands that get millions of $ but still plead 'poverty'. They need to assume responsibility and accountability for the money provided. They can't have it both ways.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

partsguy said:


> I think we'll find out 'where' the majority of it went quite easily - there are banking records, and it's hard to spend that much as 'cash'.
> 
> But whether it was the best value, (or for any value towards the specific items the money was intended to spent upon) is the question.
> 
> ...


Actually the government has billions and billions of dollars. Just because you pay taxes doesn't make it your money. When you pay sales tax do you think that money is still somehow yours as well? 

Sorry, these are government funds not your funds. That is how our government works.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

iMouse said:


> *And the hunger strike just before the report's release might be a shrewd move as well.*
> 
> 
> True.
> ...


According to the CBC article she was aware of the results of the audit in August. Spence's "diet strike" has been a well plotted scam from the beginning, right along with it being a means to raise funds... I really think she could care less about raising awareness of her people's plight, she is more concerned about deflection, distraction and saving her own butt.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> Actually the government has billions and billions of dollars. Just because you pay taxes doesn't make it your money. When you pay sales tax do you think that money is still somehow yours as well?


I _do _consider it my money.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I _do _consider it my money.


You may consider it so but it doesn't make it so. Try getting any of it back once you have paid it. 

They have a responsibility to manage it as prudently as possible for the public good, but once you give it to them its theirs.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> YTry getting any of it back once you have paid it.


I can say the same thing about a thief who steals my money in the night...


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I can say the same thing about a thief who steals my money in the night...


Ahh, but at least there you have some recourse through the legal system. Unless you can prove the government made an error in your tax assessment (good luck with that) the money is theirs to keep.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I _do _consider it my money.


It was never really your money. The government creates money and defines its value. Modern money cannot exist without government and money exists as much as a tool for government manipulation of society as for a medium of exchange. So, until you get to be a multi-national corporation or global bank (at which point you have enough money from enough different governments that you can start to have an effect on those governments) it's best to think of it all as the government's money.

One of the most effective mechanisms governments have to effect policy is modulating the amount you have to pay to use their money. When you use money you accept taxation.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> It was never really your money. The government creates money and defines its value. Modern money cannot exist without government and money exists as much as a tool for government manipulation of society as for a medium of exchange. So, until you get to be a multi-national corporation or global bank (at which point you have enough money from enough different governments that you can start to have an effect on those governments) it's best to think of it all as the government's money.
> 
> One of the most effective mechanisms governments have to effect policy is modulating the amount you have to pay to use their money. When you use money you accept taxation.


No. That is how _you_ see it. I don't agree with you.


----------



## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

screature said:


> According to the CBC article she was aware of the results of the audit in August. Spence's "diet strike" has been a well plotted scam from the beginning, right along with it being a means to raise funds... I really think she could care less about raising awareness of her people's plight, she is more concerned about deflection, distraction and saving her own butt.


I agree 100%! 

From the get to, I thought it was fairly ironic or convenient that she would be the one leading the way on this strike. Definite deflection tactic.

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I don't agree with you.


You are essentially disagreeing with the definition of fiat currency.

Wether you like it or not, money is a function of government.


----------



## partsguy (Jul 24, 2012)

screature said:


> Actually the government has billions and billions of dollars. Just because you pay taxes doesn't make it your money. When you pay sales tax do you think that money is still somehow yours as well?
> 
> Sorry, these are government funds not your funds. That is how our government works.


Who is 'the government'? The government is us. All of us.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> You are essentially disagreeing with the definition of fiat currency.
> 
> Wether you like it or not, money is a function of government.


_Some_ currency is _one_ function of government. Money can be created in all sorts of ways that do not involve government. Banks, for example, issued currency for a considerable portion of Canadian history.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Two things:

1/ First Nations funds mishandled by Ottawa, audits show
_Even as Prime Minister Stephen Harper accuses the Attawapiskat First Nations of mismanaging federal funds, the internal audits posted recently suggest the criticism could apply to the federal bureaucracy as well.

The audits say there are "significant gaps" in how the on-reserve infrastructure funding is controlled, and that the financial reporting system is riddled with inconsistencies.

The audit of on-reserve community infrastructure says targets, standards and compliance systems are often ignored or inconsistently applied_​
2/ Distraction. Notice how now everyone is talking about money, accountability, audits and wasteful-spending band councils? Notice how discussion no longer even approaches the REAL origins of IdleNoMore - opposition to bill C-45 (Budget omnibus bill) that native Canadians claim impinges on their treaty rights as well as poses a threat to the protection of waterways, etc.?

_How special..._


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

One thing: Point 1 is, and continues to be the reality. I suspect money is more to do with the origins of INM than any other single factor. It almost always is the case and history proves that every time.

That noted, corrective measures need to be taken for the plight of Canada's native populations, much of it by themselves and for themselves.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

So let me get this straight, Spenser is on a hunger strike because she can account for the $100 million she was given, not to mention 2800 people
Live there and they can figure out for the last ten years how to survive and build homes? Yup you got to be kidding me..
For a person who is on a hunger strike why does she look just as large as she was when she started the strike?

Shut the place down and move them to the populace and tell them, to survive like the rest of us..last I checked PMO will not fix my house or pay my debts, why should we let them waste any more?

Those blockades are illegal, start arresting them.. 
Lest we forget Caledonia?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1/ First Nations funds mishandled by Ottawa, audits show
> _Even as Prime Minister Stephen Harper accuses the Attawapiskat First Nations of mismanaging federal funds, the internal audits posted recently suggest the criticism could apply to the federal bureaucracy as well.
> ...


How special is it that "Chief" Spence has the audit information since August and is now conducting a "diet strike" as a means of distraction and fund raising... when she knew all along roughly when the audit would be officially released... :lmao:

It is indeed ironic that this "movement" is called "Idle No More"... Quite frankly it somewhat astounds me that they don't seem to see it.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> 2/ Distraction. Notice how now everyone is talking about money, accountability, audits and wasteful-spending band councils? Notice how discussion no longer even approaches the REAL origins of IdleNoMore - opposition to bill C-45 (Budget omnibus bill) that native Canadians claim impinges on their treaty rights as well as poses a threat to the protection of waterways, etc.?
> 
> _How special..._


Ain't it a pain when the lefty narrative isn't the real story?


----------



## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

CubaMark said:


> 2/ Distraction. Notice how now everyone is talking about money, accountability, audits and wasteful-spending band councils? Notice how discussion no longer even approaches the REAL origins of IdleNoMore - opposition to bill C-45 (Budget omnibus bill) that native Canadians claim impinges on their treaty rights as well as poses a threat to the protection of waterways, etc.?


You mean the part that was put in because of longstanding requests by aboriginal leaders? INM has no public credibility, because it has no literal credibility. The whole thing is based on a false premise.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

The report covers a time span before Chief Spence was elected Chief as well during Chief Spence's term. The audit report demonstrates that the accounting improved dramatically during Chief Spence's term.

I'm not buying this has nothing to do with Harper's Strong Stable Majority Conservative Government™ trying to change the channel.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

It's MY money, and I want to know.

If some bureaucratic Native chief thinks that impinges on her authority over her Band, well screw her.

And what of her 'subjects'? Do they worship the ground that she walks on, and are they tickled to death on how she is running the store. I doubt it, but they have probably been cowed into silence, in the quest to "stick it to the White Man".

Make a living there for yourselves, or move to where you can do so.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> The report covers a time span before Chief Spence was elected Chief as well during Chief Spence's term. The audit report demonstrates that the accounting *improved dramatically* during Chief Spence's term.
> 
> I'm not buying this has nothing to do with Harper's Strong Stable Majority Conservative Government™ trying to change the channel.


What from criminal to just corrupt? I guess that is an improvement of sorts.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

partsguy said:


> Who is 'the government'? * The government is us. All of us*.


No it isn't at all. We just vote for the legislative body of government, Government is comprised of the Legislative body, the Executive, the Legal and Judicial body and their associated bureaucrats... the rest of us have nothing to do with *running* the government.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> What from criminal to just corrupt? I guess that is an improvement of sorts.


Sounds like some sort of Victorian jingoism, by BigDL!


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

I love the "...it's my money argument..." I suspect the "my money" amounts to a penny or two. Lets spend billion of dollars on "where" a mouse or a man's penny was spent.

There is no suggestion that the money spent at Attawapiskat and the accounting was any better or worse than Tony Clament's spending on Muskoka gazeboes. 

Well the difference between Spence (spent money destined for Attawapiskat on Attawapiskat) and Clament (mis-spent money for border security on Muskoka pork barrel project far away from any international or even provincial borders.) Auditors says both had poor accounting and records.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

BigDL said:


> There is no suggestion that the money spent at Attawapiskat and the accounting was any better or worse than Tony Clament's spending on Muskoka gazeboes.


In fact, Tony Clement's spending was well accounted for--that's why people were able to nail him on it--and that you know that some of the money was spent on gazebos.

However, I doubt the budget at Attawapiskat would have become such a public issue without this hunger strike.


----------



## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

partsguy said:


> .
> 
> Municipalities have to provide accountability to their taxpayers. Can you imagine the taxpayer revolt that would take place if any of our towns or cities didn't put projects out to tender, or somehow insist on proper value for the money spent, and didn't provide 'due diligence' when spending taxpayer dollars? Even provinces and the Federal Government have someone overseeing their spending, and have rules about conflict of interest.
> .


Actually, City of Vancouver hasn't released auditable spending records for a few years now.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> In fact, Tony Clement's spending was well accounted for--that's why people were able to nail him on it--and that you know that some of the money was spent on gazebos.
> *
> However, I doubt the budget at Attawapiskat would have become such a public issue without this hunger strike.*


Never doubt the ego of Charlie Angus... 

Despite the fact that Attawapiskat is in his riding and he remained silent (or until it might be politically beneficial for him to say something) for years... just so long as he might garner enough public attention in his favour he would have raised a stink... just like he did a year ago when it was just oh so convenient, or so he thought. 

it seems he may have chosen the wrong side. Time will tell.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

vancouverdave said:


> Actually, City of Vancouver hasn't released auditable spending records for a few years now.


Most BC cities haven't--that's why a provincial auditor is now authorized to make that happen.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Paula Simons of the Edmonton Journal perhaps says it best:

Simons: Founder of Alberta version of Idle No More has no time for cynicism


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

A very good article, Don - thanks for posting.

As for the rest of you..... *SQUIRREL!!!!*


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

SINC said:


> Paula Simons of the Edmonton Journal perhaps says it best:
> 
> Simons: Founder of Alberta version of Idle No More has no time for cynicism


It is a good article.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> It is a good article.


Yes. It is a sterling example of a movement that has already been co-opted and killed.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Here is another good read:

Meeting with Harper won’t settle aboriginal people’s problems


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Attawapiskat Chief Spence’s ‘life partner’ challenges department to launch forensic audit, says band has nothing to hide*



> Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence’s “life partner” says the federal Aboriginal Affairs department *should finally launch the forensic audit requested by the community in 2004* if it’s serious about tracking the millions of dollars that have flowed through the band’s coffers.





> Clayton Kennedy, who is also the band’s former co-manager, said financial accountability had improved over the last two years in Attawapiskat, which posts all its financial documents online. He said none of the money was ever misappropriated and every dollar could be tracked by simply approaching the vendors and the banks involved. He said the department should call in the forensic audit requested by the community back in 2004.
> 
> “If everyone is so concerned about the lack of documentation, then fine, come back, start contacting the suppliers, go through the banks, get into it in a little more detail because I don’t think you’ll find any misappropriation of funds,” said Kennedy, who was the band’s co-manager between July 2010 and August 2012.


(APTN)


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> *Attawapiskat Chief Spence’s ‘life partner’ challenges department to launch forensic audit, says band has nothing to hide*
> 
> (APTN)


If it was requested in 2004 then that was under the Lib's government watch... why didn't they do anything? And yet the "blame"rests with the current government.

At least this government conducted a 3rd party audit on the finances of Attawapiskat....

Of course Kennedy is requesting a forensic audit, probably becuase he thinks he has adequately hidden the trail of misspent/misappropriated funds... Time will tell.

BTW CM is it really necessary to up the font size for this link? I had read the article well before you posted the link and probably so have many others... seems like a bit of "grandstanding" to me...

Desperate times call for desperate measures I guess. When things aren't going one's way yelling seems to be the appropriate response by some... Oh and cursing, swearing, name calling and making baseless accusations a la Pat Martin.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

HMOG. 

A guy likes to put a little thought into formatting, and it becomes "grandstanding". COAS. SINC let me know - in a nice, collegial way - that the font size I was using to post quotes was too large, something I didn't notice on my screen / system / eyes. Sorry for attempting to take readibility into account. From now on, nothing but crappy formatting for everyone /endpassiveaggressiverant/

As for the question of the audit - I've never said that the Liberals dealt with native issues better than Conservatives. The current situation is the results of years of mismanagement from both Federal parties. But the Conservatives have had the portfolio for a good many years now, and had their chance to do something - and failed to date.

Nice how you slander Kennedy's character, without any basis in fact. What a nasty world your mind operates in.


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Well CM, when the bigots in this thread let fly, I'm sure the bigotry is used in the nicest possible way.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> The current situation is the results of years of mismanagement from both Federal parties.


But not the community leaders? Is this an oversight in your comment?


----------



## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Macfury said:


> But not the community leaders? Is this an oversight in your comment?


Of course it's not. They are innocent children that the government has to coddle. Don't you see that it's like giving your child 10,000$ for his allowance each week. The kid is so far removed from reality because their brain isn't developed enough to handle all that responsibility, they will blow it all without being able to tell you what they did with it.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

CubaMark said:


> *Attawapiskat Chief Spence’s ‘life partner’ challenges department to launch forensic audit, says band has nothing to hide*


Nothing to hide? Apparently not. Sounds like something that would happen in a country run by a despot dictator.



> A Global News reporter and photojournalist say police threatened to arrest them while they attempted to do a story about the living conditions in Attawapiskat Tuesday.
> 
> Police then reportedly escorted them off the northern Ontario reserve.
> 
> ...


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> HMOG.
> 
> A guy likes to put a little thought into formatting, and it becomes "grandstanding". COAS. SINC let me know - in a nice, collegial way - that the font size I was using to post quotes was too large, something I didn't notice on my screen / system / eyes. Sorry for attempting to take readibility into account. From now on, nothing but crappy formatting for everyone /endpassiveaggressiverant/
> 
> ...


:-( 

You my friend are the one whose mind operates in a nasty place... I can't count the number of negative, conspiracy based articles that you frequently post to... Then when some one speculates on one of your pet themes it means their mind operates in a nasty world... That is really rich. :lmao:


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> Well CM, when the bigots in this thread let fly, I'm sure the bigotry is used in the nicest possible way.


Bigots!!!  tptptptp Get stuffed.

My comments had nothing to do with race at all... if you chose to interpret it that way well it is more indicative where your mind is coming from not mine.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> :-(
> 
> You mind friend are the one whose mind operates in a nasty place... I can't count the number of negative, conspiracy based articles that you frequently post to... Then when some one speculates on one of your pet themes it means their mind operates in a nasty world... That is really rich. :lmao:


If it comes from _Crooks and Liars_, how can it be wrong? He milks that one like a prize cow!


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I have certainly had conflicting emotions on this one from day one.

First off it is a complete no-brainer. Lard Harpo should be willing to meet with the chiefs. That it required black mail to get him to do so says a lot about his character none of it really positive. (Keep in mind I also believe he should be willing to meet with the Provincial Premiers so I will forgive the Harpolite Clan for saying I am a raving lunatic.)

OTOH for Chief Spence to then continue to hold out to get the Governor General goes beyond absurd. Perhaps a lack of nutrition has addled her brain. Either that or she's been smoking Wacky Tobacky on the side.

Also rather disgusted with what appears to be a smear campaign against the Chief. Even if the worst of the allegations prove true (they may do just that) this is not the time nor the place to air them.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> Even if the worst of the allegations prove true (they may do just that) this is not the time nor the place to air them.


Why not. Just because she's chosen this moment to grandstand with a hunger strike? It is EXACTLY the time and the place to air them.


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

I don't understand why people that appear to have the best interest of natives at heart feel that covering up or ignoring the very problems that are keeping them impoverished and hurting is the right thing to do, if it involves the natives own actions. The mainstream media and politicians seem to suffer from the same irrational thinking. Don't ask the hard questions or the blatantly obvious ones, don't enforce the law and don't ever shine a light on anything that may show natives in a bad light. Things will never be right with natives if corruption and mismanagement are ignored at the top levels of their leadership.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

We are all aware that the "Idle No More" movement is more than a few First Nation's people on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River. Right?...Right?


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

BigDL said:


> We are all aware that the "Idle No More" movement is more than a few First Nation's people on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River. Right?...Right?


Sure. It's sputtering out though, and off our radar.


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

MacGuiver said:


> I don't understand why people that appear to have the best interest of natives at heart feel that covering up or ignoring the very problems that are keeping them impoverished and hurting is the right thing to do, if it involves the natives own actions. The mainstream media and politicians seem to suffer from the same irrational thinking. Don't ask the hard questions or the blatantly obvious ones, don't enforce the law and don't ever shine a light on anything that may show natives in a bad light. Things will never be right with natives if corruption and mismanagement are ignored at the top levels of their leadership.


But you are supposed to acknowledge that our guilt about the Natives is right up there with Original Sin. 

Nope, not buying that one.

In either case, I was not there. 

Time to toss them into the great melting pot with the rest of us.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

oh man. Do we have to listen to the Harper apologists lecturing us on the problems?

Yeah, let's talk about spending problems shall we?


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm guessing they don't wanna go there.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> We are all aware that the "Idle No More" movement is more than a few First Nation's people on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River. Right?...Right?


There are not "a few First Nation's people on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River"... get your facts straight. 

Chief Spence is on a hunger strike representing *one* band and one band only... one person, that's it.

And in fact "Idle No More" (what an ironic slogan that is) has nothing, zero, nada to do with Chief Spence's hunger strike... some of the media has convoluted them into being the same thing, but they are not.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> There are not "a few First Nation's people on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River"... get your facts straight.
> 
> Chief Spence is on a hunger strike representing *one* band and one band only... one person, that's it.
> 
> *And in fact "Idle No More" (what an ironic slogan that is) has nothing, zero, nada to do with Chief Spence's hunger strike... some of the media has convoluted them into being the same thing, but they are not.*


That is FALSE. Saying her hunger strike has -nothing- to do with idle no more is ridiculous.

The protest is in solidarity with her hunger strike.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

screature said:


> There are not "a few First Nation's people on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River"... get your facts straight.
> 
> Chief Spence is on a hunger strike representing *one* band and one band only... one person, that's it.
> 
> And in fact "Idle No More" (what an ironic slogan that is) has nothing, zero, nada to do with Chief Spence's hunger strike... some of the media has convoluted them into being the same thing, but they are not.


Exactly, and this story clearly shows Chief Spence's hunger strike and Idle No More are separate entities:

Attawapiskat chief won't attend PM meeting in GG's absence - Politics - CBC News


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature didn't simply say they were separate entities, which technically they may be, he went much further to say that her hunger strike had 'zero, nada, _nothing to do with with idle no more_'

FALSE.

But nothing like running around in circles over such things instead of actually looking at the bigger issues.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> screature didn't simply say they were separate entities, which technically they may be, he went much further to say that her hunger strike had 'zero, nada, _nothing to do with with idle no more_'


Uh, no, not actually, the other way round, he clearly said Idle No More had nothing to do with Chief Spence's hunger strike, and he was right:



screature said:


> And in fact "Idle No More" (what an ironic slogan that is) has nothing, zero, nada to do with Chief Spence's hunger strike... some of the media has convoluted them into being the same thing, but they are not.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

> There are not "a few First Nation's people on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River"... get your facts straight.
> 
> Chief Spence is on a hunger strike representing one band and one band only... one person, that's it.
> 
> And in fact "Idle No More" (what an ironic slogan that is) has nothing, zero, nada to do with Chief Spence's hunger strike... some of the media has convoluted them into being the same thing, but they are not.





SINC said:


> Exactly, and this story clearly shows Chief Spence's hunger strike and Idle No More are separate entities:
> 
> Attawapiskat chief won't attend PM meeting in GG's absence - Politics - CBC News


And this story with picture the caption notes that fellow hunger striker and supporter (a spokesperson.) I understand from media reports there are at least two hunger strikers besides Chief Spence.










TheStar said:


> Attawapiskat *Chief Theresa Spence holds hands with fellow hunger striker Jean Socks *as she stands beside supporter Danny Metatawabin during a press conference outside her teepee on Victoria Island in Ottawa on Jan. 4.


Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence hunger strike: How

One of the fellow hunger strikers is from New Brunswick (Elisipogtog First Nation, I believe) and another from Cross Lake, Man., elder Raymond Robinson has also gone without food since Dec. 11.

[quoteCBCNews]*Protests Escalate*
*Spence is not alone on her hunger strike. Cross Lake, Man., elder Raymond Robinson has also gone without food since Dec. 11.*

The CBC's Adrienne Arsenault reported that while Spence is weak and reporting some pain, she remains upbeat and takes a daily walk with her friends and supporters.

Arsenault said Robinson is not faring as well, telling her yesterday that he's lost more than 30 pounds and is having trouble standing up straight because of his pain.[/quote]
Spence to join Harper meeting with chiefs Jan. 11 - Politics - CBC News 

So not alone, and support from across the country therefore "a few" is a reasonable and truthful statement.

So acquire all facts before taking a haughty condescending posture please.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

BigDL said:


> So not alone, and support from across the country.
> 
> So acquire all facts before taking a haughty condescending posture please.


Ah, I see now, she has two whole more hunger strikers and neither a member of Idle No More, or the report neglected to mention that information. That makes three in Canada. Hardly support from across the country is it? What was that you asked about 'facts' again?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> And this story with picture the caption notes that fellow hunger striker and supporter (a spokesperson.) I understand from media reports there are at least two hunger strikers besides Chief Spence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could a photo look any more staged...

:lmao: The Star get things wrong consistently... and at best there is ONE other hunger striker... the other person pictured is just a "supporter" read the caption for goodness sake...



> Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence holds hands with fellow hunger striker Jean Socks as she stands beside *supporter Danny Metatawabin* during a press conference outside her teepee on Victoria Island in Ottawa on Jan. 4.


No other "story" has mentioned anything about any other hunger strikers so please forgive me if I don't take the writings of some Star caption writer as being gospel... there is not even any mention in the article of the purported other dieter...

"Support" from across the country... I suppose if there is a a handful in each province and territory... that means she has "support" across the country.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

SINC said:


> Ah, I see now, she has two whole more hunger strikers and neither a member of Idle No More, or the report neglected to mention that information. That makes three in Canada. Hardly support from across the country is it? What was that you asked about 'facts' again?


Still NB to Manitoba would constitute a huge chunk of the land. 

My original statement was


BigDL said:


> We are all aware that the "Idle No More" movement is more than a few First Nation's people on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River. Right?...Right?


So I am saying two notions, (1) "The Idle No More" movement is a ground swell of First Nation's people from across the country and (2) that Chief Spence and two others people (a few people are) on a hunger strike on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River are not the sum total of the "Idle No More" movement. 

The media and many here seemed to have not come to those conclusion though. That is why I choose to draw attention to this fact.

Some may continue to go madly off in all directions while others shall ascertain the facts and come to logical conclusions.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> Still NB to Manitoba would constitute a huge chunk of the land.
> 
> My original statement was
> 
> ...


You're simply wrong! 

Google "Idle No More" if you don't believe me. You will see that Chief Spence had absolutely nothing, zero, nada to do with it's creation and she never said her diet strike had anything to do with it.

Inform yourself sir.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

BigDL said:


> Some may continue to go madly off in all directions while others shall ascertain the facts and come to logical conclusions.


And by all means feel free to continue to do so. You seem to be good at it. Going off madly that is.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

SINC said:


> And by all means feel free to continue to do so. You seem to be good at it. Going off madly that is.


Thankfully, one can't simply bully the facts to magically reveal what they want them to.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

SINC said:


> Uh, no, not actually, the other way round, he clearly said Idle No More had nothing to do with Chief Spence's hunger strike, and he was right:


Just about every news media outlet has said otherwise. Many of my native friends have said the same thing. They are technically different, but to say both have absolutely nothing to do with each other is absolutely false.

What the hell is wrong with people that they have to insist on this sheer nonsense? Is it because they refuse to look at the actual issues so they need to beat their chests over this total nonsense?

But I can see how conservatives really need to believe otherwise. So yeah go ahead fight over this trivial point, it really makes a huge point well worth making in the scheme of things now doesn't it!


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Another movement afoot: Idle No More - CUP Newswire

This is a reasonably good summary. A friend of mine, who is heavily involved in Idle No More, is quoted in the article.

Idle No More is bigger than Chief Spence's hunger strike. But her goals are in keeping with INM's goals, and the movement actively supports her aims. Chief Spence did not create IDM, but to say they have nothing to do with each other isn't quite accurate.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sonal said:


> Another movement afoot: Idle No More - CUP Newswire
> 
> This is a reasonably good summary. A friend of mine, who is heavily involved in Idle No More, is quoted in the article.
> 
> Idle No More is bigger than Chief Spence's hunger strike. But her goals are in keeping with INM's goals, and the movement actively supports her aims. Chief Spence did not create IDM, but to say they have nothing to do with each other isn't quite accurate.


With all due respect, Sonal, this is not a news article. It is an opinion piece with some quotes.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Sonal said:


> Another movement afoot: Idle No More - CUP Newswire
> 
> This is a reasonably good summary. A friend of mine, who is heavily involved in Idle No More, is quoted in the article.
> 
> Idle No More is bigger than Chief Spence's hunger strike. But her goals are in keeping with INM's goals, and the movement actively supports her aims. Chief Spence did not create IDM, but to say they have nothing to do with each other isn't quite accurate.


exactly. 

We can pat them on the head for having pointed out that idle no more's beginnings and mandate were separate in it's beginnings, but this is the sort of thing silly servants with pee stained underwear in Ottawa would come up with (after having lived and worked in Ottawa in another life, a joke we had).

If any of these so concerned with facts souls even bothered to look at idle no more's official website, they would have noticed that chief spence even is an item on their main site menu! 

Directly from idle no more's official website's front page:



> Idle No More began on November 10th, 2012 at Stations 20 West, Saskatoon, SK. The early stages of the movement consisted of 5 rallies before our National Day of Action on December 10th.
> 
> *Chief Spence decided she would fast on that day as part of her action to support the Idle No More movement. It is very important this history is known. We are very greatful for Theresa Spences honourable and courageous support, we also need to remember the face of Idle No More is also the grassroots people.*


While it is important to point out this movement is about the grassroots people, not leadership, they quite clearly acknowledge chief spence's support.

However as I said before, often when people wish to avoid larger issues, they pick apart the smaller nonsense ones instead.

Quite a ploy.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Teresa Spence is a poor choice to have as a prominent spokes person for the movement. Her neglect of her own people and self indulgence is a real scandal. If I was heading idle no more, I'd want to distance the movement from her and the goings on at her reserve as much as possible. I'm glad she is front and center though because many Canadians are waking up to the fact that all is not well in first nations fiscal management. Even the mainstream media has been forced to drop the "natives can do no wrong" bias and start actually reporting some facts. If they truly had native interests at heart, providing cover for gross mismanagement and corruption on reserves wouldn't be acceptable. It only exacerbates the problems.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

MacGuiver said:


> Teresa Spence is a poor choice to have as a prominent spokes person for the movement. Her neglect of her own people and self indulgence is a real scandal. If I was heading idle no more, I'd want to distance the movement from her and the goings on at her reserve as much as possible. I'm glad she is front and center though because many Canadians are waking up to the fact that all is not well in first nations fiscal management. Even the mainstream media has been forced to drop the "natives can do no wrong" bias and start actually reporting some facts. If they truly had native interests at heart, providing cover for gross mismanagement and corruption on reserves wouldn't be acceptable. It only exacerbates the problems.


So now, we've gone from nothing to do with it zero, nada nothing, to a prominent spokes person for the movement?

It's hard to keep up with the right's changing smoke screen.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacGuiver said:


> Teresa Spence is a poor choice to have as a prominent spokes person for the movement. Her neglect of her own people and self indulgence is a real scandal. If I was heading idle no more, I'd want to distance the movement from her and the goings on at her reserve as much as possible. I'm glad she is front and center though because many Canadians are waking up to the fact that all is not well in first nations fiscal management. Even the mainstream media has been forced to drop the "natives can do no wrong" bias and start actually reporting some facts. If they truly had native interests at heart, providing cover for gross mismanagement and corruption on reserves wouldn't be acceptable. It only exacerbates the problems.


Yep, she's tried to hijack it even though she has no connection to it.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Yeah she hacked their site and put her name in their menu and the comments in herself.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

SINC said:


> And by all means feel free to continue to do so. You seem to be good at it. Going off madly that is.





groovetube said:


> exactly.
> 
> We can pat them on the head for having pointed out that idle no more's beginnings and mandate were separate in it's beginnings, but this is the sort of thing silly servants with pee stained underwear in Ottawa would come up with (after having lived and worked in Ottawa in another life, a joke we had).
> 
> ...





MacGuiver said:


> Teresa Spence is a poor choice to have as a prominent spokes person for the movement. Her neglect of her own people and self indulgence is a real scandal. If I was heading idle no more, I'd want to distance the movement from her and the goings on at her reserve as much as possible. I'm glad she is front and center though because many Canadians are waking up to the fact that all is not well in first nations fiscal management. Even the mainstream media has been forced to drop the "natives can do no wrong" bias and start actually reporting some facts. If they truly had native interests at heart, providing cover for gross mismanagement and corruption on reserves wouldn't be acceptable. It only exacerbates the problems.





groovetube said:


> So now, we've gone from nothing to do with it zero, nada nothing, to a prominent spokes person for the movement?
> 
> It's hard to keep up with the right's changing smoke screen.


GT you're correct. Sometimes I have to shake my head as a result of the foreging nonsense from HSSMC Government™ supporters. These folks will confuse and confound the most straight forward information, yet can parrot Conservative talking points verbatim.

If Chief Spence fails to inspire, checking into the comments of Pam Palmater as an official spokesperson and one of the co-ordinators of the Idle No More movement referencing her. 

Try not going madly off in all direction with the foolishness please some folks are interested in facts.

Hey Sinc just for you, since you have championed the use of phuck and have confirmed that this spelling can pass muster now at Eh Mac. I have a question just for you. 

How much trouble and turmoil do you believe Our Glorious Leader will encounter as a result of the Idle No More Movement picking up steam 2013 and 2014 and HSSMCG™ falters as they run out of ideas, strategies and time? 

Poor tired old Conservative Government tic, tic, tic as 2015 draws ever closer. :lmao:


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I'd expect a round of chest thumping from that question DL. Did you expect more? :lmao:


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Harper has an opportunity to impress. 
Chiefs demand fundamental change but can

This is long overdue and good for the first nations to get their back up. There is lots of stupidity on both sides in the past but bottom line the first nations had treaty after treaty broken and it's time to start a renewal process.

Harper apologized to the Chinese community and I was impressed by that.
Time to step up here.......even if it might be politically inexpedient .....it IS the right thing to do.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

On behalf of _**** sapiens_, I would like to apologize to all the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons who were inconvenienced by our ascendance.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Unbelievable. No - scratch that - reflecting upon the past few years, that's totally believable coming from you.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I was waiting for the guy wearing the hair shirt to come by. We are no more responsible for the current situation described in this thread than we are for the extinction of other hominids. It's not Original Sin.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Agreed.


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> Unbelievable. No - scratch that - reflecting upon the past few years, that's totally believable coming from you.


Too much common sense involved in his remark?


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I was waiting for the guy wearing the hair shirt to come by. We are no more responsible for the current situation described in this thread than we are for the extinction of other hominids. It's not Original Sin.


I certainly feel no guilt about the current situation Natives find themselves in in Canada, as I played no role in causing it. I have, however benefited from it, and I am therefore morally obliged to do what I reasonably can to rectify it.

You seem to be confusing responsibility with benefit.

If I steal $100 and give it to you; I'm the one guilty of theft, but you should give the money back.

And by the way; the Natives are human beings, not Neanderthals or some other species.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

bryanc said:


> I certainly feel no guilt about the current situation Natives find themselves in in Canada, as I played no role in causing it. I have, however benefited from it, and I am therefore morally obliged to do what I reasonably can to rectify it.
> 
> You seem to be confusing responsibility with benefit.
> 
> ...


I don't think they'll get this. Well clearly from their comments in the thread they won't. To them, they are just, 'lazy indians', and that's about as far as their understanding can go.

What I find incredibly astounding though, is that the same posters also, hold the natives, in particular the chiefs, to a much much higher standard than our own government! It's been pointed out numerous times, but it just doesn't sink in. Members of our own government, make very generous salaries, but also get an incredible golden parachute on top of things, misappropriate insane millions and millions of dollars for pet projects, their buddies, we just saw our government miscalculate a defence purchase by over 20 billion dollars!!! They regularly take advantage of travel and second home expenses, it's constant.

But no, they will scream to the rooftops, if they smell any overspending, or any spending they feel isn't correct. Our government, the same ones who are in my opinion far worse than any of the chiefs, will continue to audit and discredit them almost daily. But you never will see the same posters go after the government quite the way they do the natives now do you.

And suckers continue to fall for it.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

groovetube said:


> I don't think they'll get this. Well clearly from their comments in the thread they won't. To them, they are just, 'lazy indians', and that's about as far as their understanding can go.
> 
> What I find incredibly astounding though, is that the same posters also, hold the natives, in particular the chiefs, to a much much higher standard than our own government! It's been pointed out numerous times, but it just doesn't sink in. Members of our own government, make very generous salaries, but also get an incredible golden parachute on top of things, misappropriate insane millions and millions of dollars for pet projects, their buddies, we just saw our government miscalculate a defence purchase by over 20 billion dollars!!! They regularly take advantage of travel and second home expenses, it's constant.
> 
> ...


Poor comparison. I don't live in a band, nor do I have a chief who misappropriates or mismanages funds which makes me live in squalor and drink tainted water. I also don't live in a band where the band makes millions with gambling, illegal cigarettes or tax free gas.

I think Macfury is addressing a guilt trip some may feel towards the natives. How far back should we go. He's not saying the native are neanderthals.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

kps said:


> Poor comparison. I don't live in a band, nor do I have a chief who misappropriates or mismanages funds which makes me live in squalor and drink tainted water. I also don't live in a band where the band makes millions with gambling, illegal cigarettes or tax free gas.
> 
> I think Macfury is addressing a guilt trip some may feel towards the natives. How far back should we go. He's not saying the native are neanderthals.


Only the cons are making this about a 'guilt trip'.

And the comparison stands, we have many people living in squalor with no health care outside of native communities too.

But it's a comparison I find most conservatives, given it's their heroes currently in office wasting all that money at a record pace, are rather uncomfortable with.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

kps said:


> Poor comparison. I don't live in a band, nor do I have a chief who misappropriates or mismanages funds which makes me live in squalor and drink tainted water.


You do live in a band, and you do have leaders who misappropriate and mismanage funds, and who's decisions directly affect your standard of living and the quality of your drinking water. The band is called Canada, and the leaders are your municipal, provincial and federal politicians and their associated bureaucrats.

You and I are certainly far more fortunate with regard to our standards of living, safety of our drinking water etc. than are the people of many native communities, but that has more to do with the amount of resources available to our leaders than their benevolence.



> He's not saying the native are neanderthals.





macfury said:


> On behalf of **** sapiens, I would like to apologize to all the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons who were inconvenienced by our ascendance.


I think the interpretation of the above is quite clear; Europeans colonized north america, and that's just too bad for the people who lived here before us.

Because these events occurred before I existed, I take no moral responsibility for their occurrence. However, as the beneficiary of my genocidal ancestors, I'd like to do what I can to mitigate the damage accruing on a daily basis.

Personally, I think the appalling situation we find ourselves in regarding the natives is now so confounded with historical constraints and entrenched corruption that I don't see any clean solutions. But I don't think we can just wash our hands of it and say "too bad for them."


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Good article in the Star from someone who has a better understanding of the reality....

The don't need an apology - they need the treaties honoured - you'd think some of the libertarian types would understand that but of course it's a moving target if it might cost them some action from their current incompetent band leader who simply cancels treaties at will. 

Fiorito: Feds should be idle no more - thestar.com


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Macfury said:


> I was waiting for the guy wearing the hair shirt to come by. We are no more responsible for the current situation described in this thread than we are for the extinction of other hominids. It's not Original Sin.


Maybe we should start a counter movement called "Guilty No More". We'd probably best obstain from blocking major roads, railways and bridges though since we wouldn't qualify for the exemption to the laws prohibiting such behaviour.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

See? It's like the energizer bunny, the only way they can understand this is to only see it as a guilt thing. See that way, they can easily slide into 'it's not my fault', and forget about it.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

groovetube said:


> Only the cons are making this about a 'guilt trip'.
> 
> And the comparison stands, we have many people living in squalor with no health care outside of native communities too.
> 
> But it's a comparison I find most conservatives, given it's their heroes currently in office wasting all that money at a record pace, are rather uncomfortable with.


If you're seriously concerned about the Native issue, then perhaps you should stop making it a partisan issue and realise that for the 20+ years the Libs were in power they did didly squat to deal with the First Nations or the Indian Act. And as usual for the Harper haters...it's all the cons fault. 

Want to make this partisan, then here you go:
Paul Martin’s First Nations hypocrisy | Full Comment | National Post


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

bryanc said:


> You do live in a band, and you do have leaders who misappropriate and mismanage funds, and who's decisions directly affect your standard of living and the quality of your drinking water. The band is called Canada, and the leaders are your municipal, provincial and federal politicians and their associated bureaucrats.
> 
> You and I are certainly far more fortunate with regard to our standards of living, safety of our drinking water etc. than are the people of many native communities, but that has more to do with the amount of resources available to our leaders than their benevolence.


That's a ridiculous analogy, you should have studied civics instead of biology.. There's a double standard in this country when it comes to the First nations in the form of the Indian Act.

As for the rest, MF can speak for himself.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

kps said:


> As for the rest, MF can speak for himself.


Indians are _**** sapiens_, and as such are also guilty and responsible for the destruction of other hominid species. 

I'm appalled that some of the people here automatically associated First Nations citizens with Neanderthals.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

kps said:


> That's a ridiculous analogy, you should have studied civics instead of biology.


Explain. You suggested that natives should be upset at their chiefs because of mismanagement and misappropriation, and that you didn't live in a band and suffer a bad standard of living because of such mismanagement. I understand the details are different, but the Canadian society is governed by a political elite just like a band, and we suffer the consequences of their mismanagement of our funds the same way. Our leaders simply have a lot more money to squander. The analogy is fine.



> There's a double standard in this country when it comes to the First nations in the form of the Indian Act.


I agree completely; Unfortunately, this double standard is so ingrained in the assumptions, institutions, and legal agreements that govern the relationship between the crown and the first nations that there's no easy solution.

The whole situation is a horrible mess, and while that's not the fault of contemporary Canadians, it is our problem, and to deny that most of us have benefited disproportionately from the exploitation of the first nations is to deny the facts of history. The effort and expense of solving this problem should be born primarily by those who have benefited from the circumstances that caused the problem, not because we are guilty of any wrong doing, but because we have the means and the moral responsibility to do so.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> Explain. You suggested that natives should be upset at their chiefs because of mismanagement and misappropriation, and that you didn't live in a band and suffer a bad standard of living because of such mismanagement. I understand the details are different, but the Canadian society is governed by a political elite just like a band, and we suffer the consequences of their mismanagement of our funds the same way. Our leaders simply have a lot more money to squander.


If they fully joined the rest of Canada, they would suffer an improved level of mismanagement--not the very specific level of abhorrent mismanagement of the type offered by Chief Spence.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Macfury said:


> If they fully joined the rest of Canada, they would suffer an improved level of mismanagement--not the very specific level of abhorrent mismanagement of the type offered by Chief Spence.


I actually think this is the least-bad option for many first nations; but negotiating the settlement would be almost intractably complex.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

bryanc said:


> Explain. You suggested that natives should be upset at their chiefs because of mismanagement and misappropriation, and that you didn't live in a band and suffer a bad standard of living because of such mismanagement. I understand the details are different, but the Canadian society is governed by a political elite just like a band, and we suffer the consequences of their mismanagement of our funds the same way. Our leaders simply have a lot more money to squander. The analogy is fine.
> 
> .


Well if all Canadians belong to single band, then there is relative equality, all in the same boat so to speak..playing by the same rules, etc. In the First nations, the bands are not equal, some are wealthy and powerful and others like Attawapiskat are a tragedy.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacGuiver said:


> Maybe we should start a counter movement called "Guilty No More". We'd probably best obstain from blocking major roads, railways and bridges though since we wouldn't qualify for the exemption to the laws prohibiting such behaviour.


The left thrives on guilt. It would be like surgery to take it away from them.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Macfury said:


> The left thrives on guilt. It would be like surgery to take it away from them.


Nice strawman you've got there. I have no guilt about the treatment of natives, about being a well educated white male, about being healthy, or about any of my other good fortune. I recognize that a lot of this good fortune is due to luck (but some is definitely the result of my decisions and effort), and some of that 'luck' was really at the expense of others. So even if I didn't participate in the injustices inflicted on others, as a beneficiary of those injustices, I am morally obligated to make reasonable efforts to correct them when opportunities arise.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> So even if I didn't participate in the injustices inflicted on others, as a beneficiary of those injustices, I am morally obligated to make reasonable efforts to correct them when opportunities arise.


From wikipedia: 



> "Guilt is *a cognitive* or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes—accurately or not—that he or she has compromised his or her own standards of conduct or has violated a moral standard, and bears significant responsibility for that violation."


You are taking responsibility for your perceived share of the collective responsibility. I think that covers it.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

bryanc said:


> Nice strawman you've got there. I have no guilt about the treatment of natives, about being a well educated white male, about being healthy, or about any of my other good fortune. I recognize that a lot of this good fortune is due to luck (but some is definitely the result of my decisions and effort), and some of that 'luck' was really at the expense of others. *So even if I didn't participate in the injustices inflicted on others, as a beneficiary of those injustices, I am morally obligated to make reasonable efforts to correct them when opportunities arise.*


You keep making this point but without any reasoned argument to back up the claim.

Moral obligation.



> The term moral obligation has a number of meanings in moral philosophy, in religion, and in layman's terms. Generally speaking, when someone says of an act that it is a "moral obligation," they refer to a belief that the act is one prescribed by their set of values.
> 
> *Moral philosophers differ as to the origin of moral obligation, and whether such obligations are external to the agent (that is, are, in some sense, objective and applicable to all agents) or are internal (that is, are based on the agent's personal desires, upbringing, conscience, and so on).*
> 
> Obligation being a set code by which a person is to follow. (Obligations) can be found by an individual's peers that set a code that may go against the individual's own desires. The individual will express their morality by the person following the set code(s) through seeing it as good to appease society.


You clearly believe that moral obligations are external to the agent and in some sense, objective and applicable to all agents, others do not and I am one of them. 

One is not obliged to pay for "the sins" of the father as that is an incredibly slippery slope that virtually any longstanding "feud" is based on. Palestine, Ireland, Cyprus, the Balkans, Rwanda, etc., etc., etc., are all based on this notion...

What person of any affluence at all has not benefited indirectly no matter how remotely from the sins of their ancestors or even others ancestors? How far back does this moral obligation extend into the past? One generation? Two, three... forever?

One may feel that they want to make compensation for the sins of the father and that is all very well and good for that individual (or group of individuals of like mind) but there is certainly no moral obligation to do so.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

kps said:


> If you're seriously concerned about the Native issue, then perhaps you should stop making it a partisan issue and realise that for the 20+ years the Libs were in power they did didly squat to deal with the First Nations or the Indian Act. And as usual for the Harper haters...it's all the cons fault.
> 
> Want to make this partisan, then here you go:
> Paul Martin’s First Nations hypocrisy | Full Comment | National Post


when did I make this a partisan issue? I wouldn't excuse previous governments either, because this mess didn't happen just in the last few years under Harper. Far from it.

I'm merely pointing out that the conservative supporters here are just lining up to discredit anything that moves that might put Harper in a bad spot. Those lazy money wasting natives!! Wow. Really?

Look at them now lining up to create a circular argument about morals, and guilt, and a whole bunch of sheer nonsense. None of which really addresses anything really.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

groovetube said:


> when did I make this a partisan issue? I wouldn't excuse previous governments either, because this mess didn't happen just in the last few years under Harper. Far from it.
> 
> I'm merely pointing out that the conservative supporters here are just lining up to discredit anything that moves that might put Harper in a bad spot. Those lazy money wasting natives!! Wow. Really?
> 
> Look at them now lining up to create a circular argument about morals, and guilt, and a whole bunch of sheer nonsense. None of which really addresses anything really.


By all means let's not blame Our Glorious Leader Harper and his Government. They did nothing. Nada, zip, zilch! No action since last year's meeting of the Crown, the Government and First Nations therefore nothing to criticize about Our Glorious Leader or his Ministers.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

groovetube said:


> when did I make this a partisan issue? I wouldn't excuse previous governments either, because this mess didn't happen just in the last few years under Harper. Far from it.
> 
> I'm merely pointing out that the conservative supporters here are just lining up to discredit anything that moves that might put Harper in a bad spot. Those lazy money wasting natives!! Wow. Really?
> 
> Look at them now lining up to create a circular argument about morals, and guilt, and a whole bunch of sheer nonsense. None of which really addresses anything really.


Okay then, I must be misreading your posts and confusing the conservative posters here with the conservative _posers_ in Parliament. lol


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Pointing out those who are excusing more inaction by our current government, doesn't mean previous governments were successful in doing something either.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

No quick fix for this one, Harper is going to have a lot of mud to sort through,
Should prove interesting to watch in the next few weeks, Maybe the Queen will visit.

Maybe the Queen should visit Canada and Australia,
I hear that they are going through pretty much the same thing down under.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Not sure if any or how much connection there is to the INM but probably still best included here.

Sir John A. MacDonald statue sprayed with 'murderer' graffiti in Kingston, Ont. - Yahoo! News Canada



> KINGSTON, Ont. - Police in Ontario are investigating after a Sir John A. MacDonald statue was vandalized overnight, saying it may have been politically motivated.
> 
> The sculpture, located in park in Kingston, Ont., was splattered with red paint and the words "This is stolen land," "murderer" and "colonizer" were sprayed on the statue's base.
> 
> ...


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

If the Akwesasne were involved, be thankful they didn't blow 'him' up.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I suppose it had to happen:


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Of course it did.

Written by the right for sure, and of course left a lot of the Rob ford saga out.

Journalism 101 pfffffft.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Nice one, SINC!


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Hook...


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Well given how inaccurate the Rob Ford side of that is, I don't hold out much for comparison with Chief Spence.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

'Ottawapiskat' Twitter tag satirizes Idle No More criticisms - Your Community

hah!



> A million people from their tribe use foodbanks each month, while their Grand Chief GG serves 10 course meals in his palace. #Ottawapiskat


and:



> #Ottawapiskat debt hovering around $600,000,000,000. Might be time for a third-party manager.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

It's Embarrassing How the #IdleNoMore Protest is Being Handled 

Article by Anthony Sowan of Red Deer, a full status Cree Indian.



> I move that Canadians start their own march towards coast to coast equality, or at least the serious discussion of it. Our country should offer no free rides to anyone. No help for those who refuse to help themselves. No quarter for those who would inhibit the lives and success of others. No limit to what anyone can accomplish with a steely resolve, and a great idea. *It doesn't matter who built the first camp fires and communities on this land, it's those that work hard to continue to stoke the flames of collective well being that matter.*
> 
> As a man that stands by his word, I pledge to never again use my native status to further myself in a way that isn't available to every other Canadian. I will leave my son unregistered, and will teach him the importance of keeping it that way. I am a proud native man, and a hard working, forward thinking Canadian that believes the opportunities and advantages this country has to offer should be available to everyone equally.


Update:



> *No matter how you cut it, the monetary compensation and general advantages need to stop.* Horrific things happened to people/races throughout history, and although I'm not condoning or supporting it, I do not feel that they should be given anything more than anyone else. The atrocities committed, in this instance, happened a long time ago to/by people that no longer exist. I agree that it should never be forgotten, but it makes no sense to have the innocent Canadian citizens of the present pay for crimes committed by someone else in a different time.
> 
> *Really, the people that are abusing you the worst, are the people you have placed in leadership positions.* Not ALL of them are corrupt, but there are some very serious issues with monetary responsibility. *I honestly don't know how some band leaders haven't been arrested for fraud, embezzlement, and more.*
> 
> The first step of "healing" is to put the past in it's place. Only then can you work on your own personal lives, which will then naturally stem into becoming whole as a community. *The healing you want and need can come from no government program, and no external source*.


All bold mine.

I want to meet this guy...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

This is still the eatingest hunger strike I have seen in a while.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Macfury said:


> This is still the eatingest hunger strike I have seen in a while.


Its occupy reloaded. You have to watch the so called "Idle No More" protestors (mostly white) that showed up to protest Sun media for its "racism". When asked what they wanted, or to sight examples of racism the lefty clowns couldn't make a coherent statement and even started bashing the Jews in their fight against the racist media. Hats off to Ezra Levant for exposing this stupidity. Then the cops went into political correction mode and took Ezra aside to chastise him for asking questions and getting the protestors angry.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Gee someone agrees with something. Yeah!

My hope the INM movement should continue and to put their issues on the Nation's political agenda.

The government should get out of the way and allow first nations to succeed or fail on their own terms. The colonial/paternal attitude must stop, the sooner the better, IMO.

The idea that housing has to be purchased in New Brunswick (or anywhere else for that matter) and shipped to Attawapiskat, or any other First Nation sitting in the boreal forest, is shameful. 

Vocational skills training and life skills training to make people whole once again and have the ability to live in their region of the country with the resources at hand. 

For millennium peoples lived without the Government in Ottawa's aide and disruptive influence, the people should have their treaty rights respected, the assistance to undo the meddling and a hand up to succeed or fail as the case may be.

I believe that is the goal of the INM movement as I understand it.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

FeXL said:


> I want to meet this guy...


I suggest you make that a top priority.

One never knows, during these heated times. :yikes:

Oh, and I know people that are able to exist for some time on "fluids only". But they usually have feeding tubes.

ENSURE or BOOST anyone?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Things are not going well in Rexton, NB / Elsipogtog:*










*Elsipogtog First Nation Sees Violence As RCMP Moves To End Protest*

_The RCMP say dozens of people were arrested after Molotov cocktails were thrown at officers and police vehicles torched Thursday when they began enforcing an injunction to end an ongoing demonstration against shale gas exploration in eastern New Brunswick.

RCMP Const. Jullie Rogers-Marsh said at least five RCMP vehicles were destroyed after they were set ablaze and at least one shot was fired by someone other than a police officer at the site of the protest in Rexton._
* * *​The protesters, who include members of the Elsipogtog First Nation, want SWN Resources to stop seismic testing and leave the province.
* * *​Opponents of the shale gas sector say the process used to extract the resource _ hydraulic fracturing, also known as fracking -- could pollute drinking water. But proponents of the industry say such concerns are overblown​

























(HuffPo)
(For the latest, check out the APTN Twitter Feed)


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police. How far they've come.... or rather, gone....


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

At least the RCMP are idle no more!


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Nothing says concern for the environment like burning police cars


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Hey, they didn't get what they wanted--wouldn't you light a car on fire?


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Macfury said:


> Hey, they didn't get what they wanted--wouldn't you light a car on fire?


lucky for us they weren't republicans or they would have shutdown the government.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

MacGuiver said:


> Nothing says concern for the environment like burning police cars


It's entirely possible that some hot-headed protesters did that... it's also entirely possibly, as evidenced by Quebec and allegedly in Toronto, that the police have made use of agents provocateurs to create situations that would "justify" the use of force.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

i-rui said:


> lucky for us they weren't republicans or they would have shutdown the government.


Yes, a peaceful protest.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*RCMP bring 60 drawn guns, dogs, assault rifles, to serve injunction on the wrong road*



> The ditch opposite me was already filled with 20-odd police in tactical blue uniforms, pistols already drawn. Three police officers dressed in full camouflage, one with a short-chained German Shepherd, were also near the ditch.
> 
> In the far field, creeping towards the Warrior encampment - which was comprised of one trailer and about ten tent - were at least 35 more police officers. Many of these wore tactical blue and had pistols drawn. At least three officers were wearing full camouflage and had sniper rifles pointed at the amassing group. The Warriors, for their part, numbered about 15.





> three so-called warriors with a journalist in tow – who claim to have arrived two nights ago from Manitoba – appeared to have determined that the situation was too extreme for them. Two of them have since been identified as Harrisen Freison and 'Eagle Claw'. They promptly ran down the road towards the far end of the police blockade. Until last night no one had ever seen these individuals before.





> with tensions now becoming highly escalated between the encroaching line of police in the field adjacent to the encampment and the Warriors now on a public dirt road, two officer approached Seven Bernard, chief of the Warrior Society. They attempted to serve Bernard with SWN's contentious injunction. Dozens of guns from all angles were pointed at all of us.
> 
> Seven Bernard began to walk away from the officer attempting to serve him the injunction.





> Sergeant Bernard threw the injunction at his namesake, saying “Consider yourself served.”
> 
> I could hear the RCMP surrounding us speaking about someone having a gun. I did not see any Warrior carrying a firearm. I can say with certainty, however, that no live round was ever fired by the Warrior side. If, as the RCMP are now claiming, that a single shot was discharged, it was not from this altercation.





> It is also important to note that the entire encroaching police formation was focused on a group of about 15 Warriors, all of whom were now on a public dirt road, away from SWN's so-called blockaded equipment.
> 
> The injunction was meant to focus on protestors blocking access to SWN's equipment on highway 134. All of the subsequent arrests at this end of the altercation were made on Hannah Road.





> Mi'kmaq Warrior Suzanne Patles, in a last ditch attempt to defuse a situation now spiralling into a screaming match with police guns pointing in every direction, ran into the middle of the field screaming: “We were given this tobacco last night!”
> 
> Now crying, in her hand she held a plug of tobacco, provided to her by RCMP negotiators wrapped in red cloth as a traditional token of peace the night before.
> 
> ...





> with guns drawn, the RCMP appeared intent on provoking a violent climax on the near three-week blockade.
> 
> I say in no uncertain terms that it is miraculous that no one was seriously injured yesterday, indeed killed. The RCMP arrived with pistols drawn, dogs snapping, assault rifles trained on various targets, and bus loads of RCMP waiting from across the province and beyond.


(Halifax Media Co-op)


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> It's entirely possible that some hot-headed protesters did that... it's also entirely possibly, as evidenced by Quebec and allegedly in Toronto, that the police have made use of agents provocateurs to create situations that would "justify" the use of force.


When police vehicles burn, I wish an investigative reporter would review maintenance logs of those vehicles to consider "the road worthy" condition of them before an incident took place.

I should also like to widen the discussion here that the SWN protest involves many more New Brunswickers than the First Nations peoples highlighted in newscasts. 

The opinions of New Brunswickers are split nearly 50/50 for and against hydro fracturing.

Many non First Nations citizens support and have taken an active role in the protests against SWN Resources testing for shale gas. It may have not been a person from a First Nation that torched a police vehicle. 

Many citizens in the eastern side of New Brunswick in particular are mostly against the development of fracked gas production. There are pockets of citizens in eastern New Brunswick who are decidedly for fracking also.

All other issues surrounding fracking aside there is the important issue of First Nations Peoples not being consulted or involved with the development of this resource. The Alward Conservatives are much like the Harper Conservatives with regard to consultation.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

CubaMark said:


> It's entirely possible that some hot-headed protesters did that... it's also entirely possibly, as evidenced by Quebec and allegedly in Toronto, that the police have made use of agents provocateurs to create situations that would "justify" the use of force.


Who needs burning police cars to justify force? They're illegally blockading a public road and impeding a business from doing their work. Thats enough provocation. 
We have a legal system to handle your grievances. Now get the off the road or we'll move you off. Seems simple enough.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> *RCMP bring 60 drawn guns, dogs, assault rifles, to serve injunction on the wrong road*


You edited out the Molotov Cocktails. Nice.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

MacGuiver said:


> Who needs burning police cars to justify force? They're illegally blockading a public road and impeding a business from doing their work. Thats enough provocation.
> We have a legal system to handle your grievances. Now get the off the road or we'll move you off. Seems simple enough.


like residents have a chance in hell with corporate lawyers! :lmao:


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Macfury said:


> You edited out the Molotov Cocktails. Nice.


They were likely RCMP provocateurs.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

MacGuiver said:


> Who needs burning police cars to justify force? They're illegally blockading a public road and impeding a business from doing their work. Thats enough provocation.
> We have a legal system to handle your grievances. Now get the off the road or we'll move you off. Seems simple enough.


*If you had bothered to read the article*, you would know that the blockade had been removed the day before, and traffic was passing at near-normal rates, barely even a slowdown.

Plus, the police action took place on a road not covered under the injunction, according to this report.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> You edited out the Molotov Cocktails. Nice.


Jeeebus Fharrrrtin' Cheetohs. I trust that people who come to this forum have _some_ capacity of literacy, and are capable of moving finger-over-trackpad or otherwise manipulating a pointing device of some sort to actually click a link and read the goddamn article. 

The reporter on the scene indicated that the MCs were not any apparent threat. If I had posted that in the note above, you would have criticized me for minimizing the thread to our brave men in blue (and camouflage).

If I had intended to hide the existence of the MCs from readers of this forum, I would not have bothered providing the link to the source. Do you think the excerpts weren't long enough? Shall I post the entire bloody thing?

Get a friggin' grip.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacGuiver said:


> They were likely RCMP provocateurs.


They provocateured these weapons, apparently:


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Shall I post the entire bloody thing?


No--but don't leave out the juicy bits either.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)




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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

^

Talk about over the top! And no, I don't mean the picture prop used.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

CubaMark said:


>


They are far from innocent. Turn the camera to take a picture from the other perspective - you will see thugs and Molotov cocktails, burning cop cars etc.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> They are far from innocent. Turn the camera to take a picture from the other perspective - you will see thugs and Molotov cocktails, burning cop cars etc.


I couldn't get that many officers to find any missing person. But I could sure do something stupid enough to make them come after me.


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

It's nice to see the police actually doing their job for once when it comes these protesters. They are still taking it way too easy on them, but at least they cleared them out and confiscated the weapons.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

heavyall said:


> It's nice to see the police actually doing their job for once when it comes these protesters. They are still taking it way too easy on them, but at least they cleared them out and confiscated the weapons.


Wait a second... isn't the job of the RCMP to ensure nothing happens to protesters until all industry moves out of the region, except for the local quiltery?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

heavyall nailed it.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

SINC said:


> heavyall nailed it.


He did leave out the part where the cocktail tosser has been identified as an RCMP informant, but if the goal is to squelch the message of the protest, then we can certainly say the RCMP was completely successful.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I doubt they're interested in any of that.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> He did leave out the part where *the cocktail tosser has been identified as an RCMP informant*, but if the goal is to squelch the message of the protest, then we can certainly say the RCMP was completely successful.


I'm not sure where you are getting this from. It wasn't in the link that was posted by CM from what I read. Perhaps you could post a link for validation of this statement.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> The Royal Canadian Mounted Police. How far they've come.... or rather, gone....


You do understand the difference between tactical/operational and ceremonial garb I hope?


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

eMacMan said:


> He did leave out the part where the cocktail tosser has been identified as an RCMP informantl.


Identified by whom? The 40 protesters who were arrested on weapons offenses? The ones who were carrying around pipebombs?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

screature said:


> You do understand the difference between tactical/operational and ceremonial garb I hope?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


>


Nice insult... 

But it still does not address the point I was making. 

Times change and the RCMP have to use tactical/operational garb when and where required, that is what makes them an effective force. 

So to somehow suggest (as you clearly did) that they no longer have the "dignity" to wear the ceremonial "red surge" because they wear camouflage where the circumstances require it is just pure hyperbole and BS.

I guess:


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Point_over_your_head


See, CM, a lot of people don't share your worldview. You may have all sorts of code words and concepts that work swimmingly for instant recognition and back patting inside a narrow social sphere. However, your inability to make these points to the broader public using this peculiar shorthand is your problem, not that of the reader.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Off everybody's radar.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Off everybody's radar.


Indeed much like that other "movement"... you know, the one to do with Wall Street... bowl movement or something like that...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Boy, this one really went places!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Thought I would revisit this one for old times' sake. Yep, this one really caught fire!


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