# Canadians are Americans where Cuba is concerned?



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I have always found it ironic and sad that the U.S. restricts its own citizens' freedom to travel by banning their visits to Cuba upon penalty of huge fines (and prosecution of those violations has risen 200% since dubya arrived). And then there's this:

This just appeared on the newly-updated Canadian Foreign Affairs travel advisories Cuba page:


> "People residing in the United States, including Canadian citizens, are subject to U.S. law regarding travel to Cuba. According to U.S. law, they are prohibited from spending money (in any currency) relating to Cuban travel unless they are licensed by the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC). Furthermore, they can be fined if they travel to Cuba and get caught without a licence from the OFAC. For more information about the Cuban sanctions program, contact the OFAC, U.S. Department of the Treasury, at (202) 622-2520 (Washington, D.C.) or (305) 810-5140 (Miami). The OFAC also operates a free automated fax-on-demand service that can be accessed 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at (202) 622-007"


http://www.voyage.gc.ca/dest/report-en.asp?country=69000 
   (See section 8.0 on this page)

 How can this possibly be legal (not that the yanks seem to care about that anymore)?

M.

[ January 19, 2004, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: CubaMark ]


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

"When in Rome,...", I guess.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Rome fell


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

Macspectrum wrote:


> Rome fell


.

Alright then...

"When in Atlantis,...".


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

was just trying to extrapolate that Washngton, like Rome, will fall
uh oh... is that a black helicopter outside my window?


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

This is a matter of some concern for me as my daughter, son-in-law and grandson will be moving to Nashville in February for a period of several years.

They don't really know how to behave like Americans, nor do they really know what to expect when they get there. I will pass this information on to them, CubaMark.

I will also remind them that Rome fell.


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

> uh oh... is that a black helicopter outside my window?


That'll teach you to put your keyboard in line-of-sight of the spies in space. Give my regards to Ashcroft.

On second thought, don't mention me.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

"LG Baker is my cell leader. He is in constant contact with his superiors. He is the mastermind."

what's that? a return ticket to downtown Levenworth?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Let's say that my partner, known to be of a strong mind on occasion, decides to throw my caution to the wind and pursue a PhD programme at a U.S. university.

The holidays come, and I splurge on a trip to Cuba as a nice present for reading week break. We go off, have a nice time, she comes back with a tan (well, actually, nobody'd notice!) and U.S. customs thugs suspect something's up. She being the honest person she is, does not tell a lie.. besides, she's _Canadian_! This leads to a $50,000 fine on top of her student loans... how nice...

The legality of it escapes me, however. The Helms-Burton act, as I understand it, applies to U.S. citizens. How could they apply it to non-citizen residents?  

LGBaker, wish your daughter very good luck...  

M


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

Macspectrum - I think we need to apologize to CubaMark for taking this topic into Wonderland.

CubaMark - my apologies. I believe I hear what you are saying and concur to a great extent. I am grateful for the information. It will help to remind my family that they are not on a trip to DisneyWorld, but headed for Pogoland. (remember Pogo?)

It behooves anyone who expects to live in a foreign country to be aware of their responsibilities and limitations.

Personally, I would resent being threatened to comply with such a law as you describe. It's one reason I don't live there.


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## Guinness (Jan 4, 2002)

>> CubaMark: How could they apply it to non-citizen residents? <<

Very simple, CubaMark. When you live in my house you live by my rules. If you don't like the rules, move out. 

Mike


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

This situation actually came up for me. I was living and working in the USA and was also engaged to a Cuban lady doctor who I'd met while on an earlier long-term job in Cuba (I was working for a Canadian company at that time).

I did, in fact, go back to Canada and then to Cuba to visit her. I also went to Mexico from the US and then boarded a flight to Cuba. And then returned via this circuitous route to my job in North Dakota. I took my American earned American dollars and shamelessly spent them, will-nilly, in Fidel's workers paradise.

While I did NOT feel any sort of guilt or shame while doing this...I certainly didn't advertise the fact. I never produced my Canadian passport at any point while crossing any US borders. I didn't need to. I have a permanent work visa for the USA and they still don't require much more than that to get back in.

Besides, my Canadian passport has two different Cuban work visas stapled into it. Even before 9/11, this might have raised some eyebrows amongst the border personnell.

I knew that I was a guest in the US and I never forgot it. When you are in their house, you play by their rules. Or...at the very least...you don't flaunt any violations.

Same goes when you are a resident of ANY other country. You watch where you step. I should know....I've been a resident of about a dozen countries, and they all have different rules. Doesn't matter where you come from, you are still governed by the rules of the country you live in.

But I should also point out that I have met many many Americans traveling in Cuba. Like myself, most have never set foot in any of the big resorts. I met all of them while working and living in the real Cuba. Not the Havana-Varadero corridor that most Canadians think of as Cuba.

I spent lots of time with a few of them, and most had a licence to visit the country. They are insanely easy to get. All you have to do is join a group who is going there to study the music or to write about it or even to look at the ridiculously antiquated agricultural practices.

There are tour groups that will "get you a licence" if you want to visit Cuba, and are an American citizen. It takes a bit of pre-planning...but so does a trip to any place that is under some sort of restrictions. Try planning a trip to Yemen. Or Iran. You can't just hop the next flight.

What's more.....

There is a place in Havana called the "Marina Hemmingway". It is a rather plush and well-appointed yacht club that is surrounded by fancy condos. And it's stuffed to the gills with fancy Ameican yachts. BIG ones! They don't fly their American flags, but they certainly are US boats. I spent an afternoon touring around it with my Cuban lady doctor and I took my video camera.

She was absolutely dazzled (it was actually hard getting her through the gate. Cubans aren't allowed in there unless they work there) and she couldn't believe the opulence of the yachts and the way that the people were dressed. I was dazzled by the high prices at one of the bars at this yacht club. Five bucks will usually buy you five cold beers at ant Cuban bar. It would only get you one Cristal at crazy Ernie's.

The kicker was when we spotted a Chevy Corvette with Havana plates in front of one of the condos. A rather NEW Chevy Corvette.









So I just gotta say...

Americans may not be "allowed" to be in Cuba. But a whole bunch of them seem to be there.

They seemed to be having a pretty good time, too.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Two more things....

Now that I am on a high-speed internet connect and am no longer under severe difficulty in uploading large files, I would be quite happy to send a short quicktime segment to Cubamark or anyone else who thinks I'm joking about the opulent American yachts in Havana. I have it all on video. The Corvette with Havana plates is also on there. 

I am NOT making this stuff up.

Also...any Canadian who resides in any other country must stay aware of ALL the rules and conduct themselves accordingly. I once spoke to a Canadian who was studying at an American University back in the late sixties on a scholarship program. He got drafted and was sent to Viet Nam.

Keep that in mind, if you ever decide to spend some time living outside of Canada. 

Also keep in mind that the US is one of the _BETTER_ ones! Many, MANY other countries have some pretty wierd rules about foregn nationals who are spending more than a two week vacation at one of their resort areas.

Trust me on this.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*CubaMark, why would you suppose that a Canadian, while living in the United States, would be allowed to break an American law and get away?*

Guinness, I think you hit the nail square on the head.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I think that Mark...like so many other Canadians...somehow believe that we are immune to the laws of other countries. And that we are just such "Nice People" in the opinion of the rest of the world that we can't actually be touched by any of the nastier rules that they have to live with.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

AND...if you get into trouble out there in the world...even if it's not your fault...do NOT expect the Canadian Government to come to your aid! It WON'T happen!!   

Canadian Embassies are only open a few hours each day. Never on weekends (that's when bad stuff seems to always happen). You will probably have to make an appointment. Even then, they may tell you...rather politely...to piss off.

Canadian Embassy staff are far more concerned with having High Tea with their opposite numbers from other foreign missions than they are with solving the problems of some stupid Canuck who has gotten themselves into trouble. Or even wants to renew a visa or something. They are pretty much useless costly baggage living high off the taxpayers hard earned dollars. They have almost no influence anyway. Just window dressing.

Back when I was living in South America, we all used to go through the US Embassy for anything we needed. They were open every day and they would help New Zealanders, Aussies, and Canadians to the best of their abilities. Which were considerable, by the way.

Not sure if that is the case these days. Chretien wasn't exactly a big help when it comes to US/Canada relations.

He kind of left us on our own, out in the world. In so very many ways.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I think its pretty clear that the US will act unilaterally when it comes to anything it declares as being "un-American". I don't think we need to go through the litturgy of expulsions of Canadian citizens to various places including Syria or the refusal of entry to the country or to planes within the country based on profiling criteria.

The solution is simple. Don't go there if you disagree. I remember a trip to Israel many years ago where a colleague who was a student at Harvard at the time decided to visit the pyramids. She was strip-searched at Ben-Gurion due to the Egyptian stamp in her passport. But, she didn't complain. The Israelis had told her that she could turn around and get on the next plane if she didn't want to be searched.

Personally, I think these policies will really hurt international tourism in the US, not to mention visits by students (the numbers of foreign scientists and students in the US has plummeted recently). This will result in further isolation and unilateralism. Not good (except for european tourism).


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Mike, that's not exactly the legal analysis I sought. The advisory indicates that the U.S.A. is exercising an authority (under what framework?) to dictate to a non-U.S. citizen that they cannot visit Cuba. 

Now, I know my reputation in here is one of, shall we say, a _left-leaning bent_, but surely I'm not alone in thinking this smacks of an overreaching of judicial authority?

I could see the U.S. refusing to allow a Canadian citizen to resume residence status upon travelling to Cuba - that _might_ be within the bounds of the law. But this seems to be "out there."

 
M


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I really can't believe what I'm reading in here.

Let me get this straight: Some of you think it's *ok* for the U.S. to charge a Canadian citizen, travelling on a Canadian passport, to a country with which Canada has full diplomatic relations simply because that Canadian has resident status in the U.S.? Of course I don't think that Canadians are immune from U.S. law - if they *break the law within that country*. Commit murder in the U.S. = Canadian go to jail, as it should be. But the U.S. imposing an extraterritorial law upon a citizen of another country for doing something *outside* the United States is ludicrous.

Also, Gerry wrote:


> There are tour groups that will "get you a licence" if you want to visit Cuba, and are an American citizen. It takes a bit of pre-planning...but so does a trip to any place that is under some sort of restrictions.


Actually, it's significantly more difficult now to "get a license" due to Bush's pandering to Miami voters via his New Year's crackdown on travel to Cuba. See: 

The U.S. Department of State in late 2003 announced it would be "cracking down" on illegal travel to Cuba:


> Homeland Security officers assigned to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) will increase inspection of all persons traveling directly to Cuba and arriving back directly from Cuba. Current U.S. law strictly limits permitted travel to Cuba to journalists, official Congressional visits, persons engaged in educational purposes, and family visits by Cuban-Americans.


And from the ACLU:



> Americans who travel to Cuba without U.S. government approval can be given a 10-year prison sentence and be fined up to $250,000. And these penalties aren't just theoretical. Recently, *the Treasury Department has stepped up enforcement, exposing even those exempted from the ban* -- like academic and cultural exchange visitors -- to unwarranted government harassment.


Also, while I appreciate your offer to send along a video of the luxurious Yankee yachts tied up at the Hemingway Marina, I think my own memory will serve. The marina is a nice place to swim, but far too full of wealthy foreigners, Americans included, bringing the less desireable aspects of tourism to Cuba. Frankly, I'm surprised more of these people haven't been prosecuted by the Treasury Dept... I mean, all the U.S. goons have to do is drive out and write down boat registries. Pretty easy. But then, the wealthy are usually the ones who are able to get around things like this, whereas it's the lower classes who are quickly and easily prosecuted.

It boggles the mind to know that some of you believe that the U.S. has the "right" to excerise this authority....

 
M


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

cubamark,
thanx for bringing a sane viewpoint w/ info. to back it up to this discussion
sometimes i just don't have the strength


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## Guinness (Jan 4, 2002)

CubaMark, why would you suppose that a Canadian, while living in the United States, would be allowed to break an American law and get away?

Mike


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I didn't say its OK, CubaMark. It's pathetic. So is the Helms-Burton law. The issue is, what can anyone do about it? Will it put you or the thousands of Canadian tourists off travelling there? That's presumably the intent. The work around is not to have your passport stamped or to not travel to the US.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

And it IS a "workaround" Mark! It is, quite simply, something you have to do if you choose to reside in the USA and want to visit Cuba right now.

Remember, I was actually _WORKING_ and earning my cash in the USA...and that didn't stop me from visiting Cuba. It doesn't stop most Americans who really want to go there either. Only the ones I saw at the Marina Hemmingway were truly wealthy. I met LOTS of American citizens who were travelling around Cuba on the cheap. like I said, most had licences. Getting a journalism permit or a musical studies pass is pretty much a cinch. No matter what might be written or advertised. Tour groups exist who will get you a pass...you just have to do some prep.

Mark...once you take up residence in any country other than Canada...or even stay there for an extended visit...alll sorts of new rules kick in. Be aware of these rules at ALL times. They supercede any rules or regs that your exhalted status as a Canadian ciutizen may have bestowed upon you as a birthright.

And if you get into trouble...are sent to jail or are forced to fight in a war or are even accused of improper thoughts...

The Canadian Government will NOT be there to help you. You are on your OWN, laddie.

This is fact.

Trust me on this.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*Some of you think it's ok for the U.S. to charge a Canadian citizen, travelling on a Canadian passport, to a country with which Canada has full diplomatic relations simply because that Canadian has resident status in the U.S.?*

As soon as you have resident status in the US you become subject to their laws.

I don't think that this particular law is "ok", but that is the way it is.

If Canada had a law stating that you couldn't travel to the Maldives (for example), an American Citizen who has resident status in Canada could be charged under that law too.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

CubaMark just look at the situation of Canadian citizens living in New Brunswick. 

Folks living on Campobello Island New Brunswick can’t get their food stuffs delivered to their Co-op Atlantic store without providing in advance a manifest of the items on the truck because the truck has to go to Eastport Maine to ferry over to Campobello Island.

When the boarder was closed because to beef because of the BSE issue one man bought dog food in Maine and wasn’t allowed to take it to his Campobello home by Canada Customs. US Customs would let him bring the dog food “to” the states. The mess was finally cleared up and the man returned the dog food from where it was purchased.

The there was the case of the elderly couple living in Canada at the end of a road that snaked into Maine. Homeland security officers refused to allow the couple any visitors. In the end the couple had to leave their home.

Then there was the infamous case of the Quebec man who bought gas in Maine a few meters from the USA/Canadian boarder and was arrested.

When you go across the “line” your walking a fine line. You don’t have the same rights as a citizen. However you are subject to their Laws unless you have diplomatic immunity. Don’t life suck


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Gee, sorry to be agreeing with Macnutt, but having worked and travelled abroad I am well aware that one is subject to the laws of the country in which one lives.

It has nothing to do with extraterritoriality.

Canada permits its residents to possess pot for legitimate medical use. The U.S. does not. Consequently, not only can't a Canadian with a permit live the U.S. and possess pot, he or she can't even have a toke if they're only visiting family for the day in Buffalo.

If you don't think you can live by another country's rules, don't move there.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

"Gee..sorry to be agreeing with MacNutt..."

Gosh, there seems to be a lot of that going around right now. "Don't life suck", eh?

And the truth is rather hard to swallow, for some of us.









Especially those of us who have been living in an insulated world that is far from the true reality.

Tough luck. The World has warts. It's not a bright shiny thing that is welcoming you with open arms and angels singing. It will reach out and bite you, if you are not watching it very very carefully. Honest.

There is the fantasy...and there is the reality. One is real, and one is just a dream.

Choose which one you want to follow VERY carefully. You usually don't get a second shot at it.

Trust me on this.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Thanks for your sympathy Macnutt, but I'm sure it's only temporary.

Trust me on this.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

My "sympathy"???

What the heck are you smokin, Brainstrained?









I was trying to give you, and anyone else who might be listening, a little dose of reality. 

Just to cut through the fog of nonsense that so many here seem to live in. This is real. If you spend any extended time in a foreign country, then you need to be aware of this stuff.

I am NOT kidding!

Trust me on this.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

> Some of you think it's ok for the U.S. to charge a Canadian citizen, travelling on a Canadian passport, to a country with which Canada has full diplomatic relations simply because that Canadian has resident status in the U.S.?


Is it a dumb law? Yes.
Has it been legally upheld by the courts? Unclear: we'll have to wait and see a Supreme Court ruling first.
When you are a resident of the U.S., are you subject to their laws, including the silly ones? Yup.
Do I think that's okay? That's rather beside the point, isn't it? The U.S. has the right the pass any kind of asinine law it wants. Don't forget that America is simply not rational when it comes to Cuba. It's incumbent on its citizens to fight these laws if they disagree...

Interesting sidenote to this: Canadian travel agents have made a lucrative business for themselves by selling Cuba packages to Americans who want a cheap holiday. They fly from America to Canada and then make a connecting flight here to go to Cuba.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I imagine most of you are unaware of Canada's 1996-amended "Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act." The amendment came into being almost immediately after the U.S. passed the Helms-Burton Act, which sought to punish Canadian individuals and companies who do business with Cuba. It also restricted the activities of U.S. subsidiaries in 3rd countries.

So, for example, if Apple Canada began selling computers to Cuba, and the U.S. government stepped in and said 'you can't do that, you're an American company', then the company would be in violation of FEMA if it acquiesced to Washington. (this has happened in a couple of instances that I know of - like the infamous Wal-Mart Cuban Pajamas Incident - a case in which, at least temporarily, Canadian law won out. Still, this likely had an effect of discouraging companies from dealing with Cuba or Cuban products).

One U.S.-owned firm that appears to be in violation of FEMA is Travelocity.ca. Try it - go online and try to book a trip from your nearest airport to Havana. After several minutes of clicking and deciding on flights, etc., this is what you'll see:










I'm awaiting word from the Justice Dept. as to whether they intend to prosecute...

 
M.

[ March 16, 2004, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: CubaMark ]


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

When I became a Canadian citizen back in 1997, I realized that I could now go to Cuba once I obtained a Canadian passport. I actually was in Cuba once, when my mother was 6 months pregnant with yours truly. I have not been able to afford a vacation, but I would like to go there one winter. We shall see.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Dr. G.,
there is a very easy way to get a free trip to Cuba, but it is a one way trip and I don't think you were referring to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Dr. G.....any US citizen who wants to can visit Cuba. Cuba has no restrictions on the bearers of US passports, as far as I know.

The problem lies with the US State Department. If they discover that any US citizen, or a resident of the USA...and that includes dual citizens...is conducting trade with, or physically visiting the island of Cuba without obtaining prior clearance, then they can fine you or jail you. Depending on how much trade or how many visits you've made to Cuba.

You can get this licence or permit to visit Cuba without a great deal of hassle. You just have to apply to the US Stae Department well in advance of your planned departure to Cuba. I'm thinking your residency in Canada, and the fact that your income is derived from non-US sources should make this pretty much a breeze.

Or...you could simply fly there direct from Canada. No problem at all.

But, if the US State Department found out about this at some later date when you were visiting or dealing directly with the US....then you _might_ have a problem. Not sure, but if I were you and I valued my freedom to visit the US and were the holder of a US passport...then I'd certainly apply for a US travel permit before entering Cuba.


As I may have noted here (about fifty three dozen times) I spent a great many years living and working in foreign countries. Travel permits, special visas etc. are just a part of the package. It is foolish to think that our exhalted status as Canadian Citizens somehow affords us a blanket pass to the rest of the world.

It just doesn't work that way.

Yes we can visit Cuba for a week or six while on vacation. No we cannot stay beyond a certain time (I think it's currently six months) unless we want to start paying taxes and living with their rather nasty laws on commerce and trade, among other things.

No we Canadians cannot just hop a plane to a whole number of places without getting prior permission. And forget about getting a job and staying someplace for an extended visit. That's totally illegal almost everywhere.

Oh...and one last thing for CubaMark:

Isn't Travelocity an American Company? If so...then why would you suppose that they are not subject to the laws of that country?

I find your outrage somewhat baffling. Sorry.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE EXPLETIVE CURSEWORD*  

(I realllllly wish someone would modify Safari so that if you hit the close window button with a bunch of tabs open, that it asks you if you really want to close the friggin' window. Just lost a half-hour of work here...)

This will be shorter than planned...



> You can get this licence or permit to visit Cuba without a great deal of hassle.


Not quite. The U.S. Treasury Dept. has very strict guidelines for issuing permission to travel to Cuba. Unless, of course, you are going there to help the Cuban people overthrow themselves







- Article VIII - which is hilarious.



> Or...you could simply fly there direct from Canada. No problem at all.


Not quite. The U.S. has posted agents at major airports which offer connecting flights to Cuba throughout Mexico, the Caribbean, and yes - especially Canada, to track americans who travel illegally. They are usually not confronted at the time, but they do receive a letter a couple of weeks later telling them how much their fine is (up to $50,000). Biking Granny Fined



> It is foolish to think that our exhalted status as Canadian Citizens somehow affords us a blanket pass to the rest of the world.


Exactly. Since Canadians often don't (or didn't) need anything beyond their passport to travel the world, we rarely thought of such troublesome things as visas, or permission to enter the country (usually such things are just bundled with our vacation air tickets, provided by the tour operator). I get annoyed at people from Canada / U.S. who talk about Cuban citizens' "right to travel" being restricted by "Castro" when in fact the problem is usually with the country of destination, which won't issue a visa for Cubans to enter the country (since after 40 years of propaganda, they all assume that _every Cuban wants to defect_ which couldn't be further from the truth).



> Yes we can visit Cuba for a week or six while on vacation. No we cannot stay beyond a certain time (I think it's currently six months) unless we want to start paying taxes and living with their rather nasty laws on commerce and trade, among other things.


Canadians are the most privileged of visitors, in that we can easily renew our visas to extend our visit by six-month periods. Cuba likes us!



> Isn't Travelocity an American Company? If so...then why would you suppose that they are not subject to the laws of that country?
> 
> I find your outrage somewhat baffling. Sorry.


Travelocity is an American company. Travelocity.Ca is a Canadian subsidiary of Travelocity.Com:



> Administrative Contact
> Name: Reet Rein
> Job Title: Vice-President, STIN
> Postal Address: The SABRE Group 5001 YONGE Street North Suite 1504 YORK ON M2N 6P6 Canada
> ...


and is therefore bound by the Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act (FEMA) as amended in 1996 to specifically counter the Helms-Burton Act, extended - illegally and extraterritorially - U.S. law into Canada. The Canadian government of the time (Axworthy was in Foreign Affairs) was rightfully indignant at the infringement upon Canadian sovereignty. Many countries in the EU and other places passed similar legislation. 

I hope you're no longer baffled...









M.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Travel restrictions to Cuba are based on the Trading With The Enemies Act (1917, and amended).

Helms-Burton refers to other measures relating to certain trade practices. The most notable prosecutions involving Canadians under Helms-Burton were the executives of Sherrit International (mining operations in Cuba) and the conviction of an individual for the sale of $3300 worth of water-purification equipment to Cuba.

Helms-Burton was passed in response to an incident involving Anti-Cuban activists flying three Cessena 337 aircraft near Cuban airspace, which were subsequently shot down outside Cuba's self-declared 12-mile limit (at 18 and 30 miles). The third aircraft returned to Miami safely.

There is quite a bit of info on the incident, so I won't go into it much here, search if you're curious. Howver, few reports go into much detail about the aircraft involved; most imply they were the garden-variety recreational Cessena common at any airport.

The Cessena 337 is a twin-engine/twin boom civilian aircraft (and Cuban pilots identified them as 337's to the military controller; from transcripts that were released) that is the base for the O2A and O2B military variants used in Vietnam.

The O2A has 4 wing pods that can carry any combination of rockets, flares, 7.62mm gun pods or "other light ordinance" [USAF museum quote]. The engines are arranged in a tractor/pusher configuration; one in front (like any single engined prop plane) and a second behind the cabin (the "pusher" configuration).

The O2B is equipped with leaflet dispensers and no ordinance.

From previous flights it seems likely that the 337's were modified with O2B equipment, as they had made many trips into Cuban airspace to drop leaflets in the past. Many of those operations dropped leaflets on Havana itself.

Cuba had previously warned it would not tolerate any further flights into it's airspace for leaflet drops. The lead aircraft had contacted Miami and Havana ATC and was circling north of 24degrees, presumably waiting for the other planes to catch up.

Havana ATC warned the lead aircraft that they were in "danger" and further warned them not to stray past the 24th parallel (which they had not done at the point of interception). The third aircraft never really entered the area at all.

[ March 17, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: gordguide ]


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_The extraterritorial nature of the US embargo strikes again... and the current Canadian government, like those that preceded it, sits on its hands and shrugs. So much for sovereignty!_

*The owners of a Toronto coffee stand say Square Canada has told them they can no longer use the popular payment technology because they are selling beverages made from Cuban coffee beans.*

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34gJQ7jKRJM[/ame]

The owners of a Toronto coffee stand say Square Canada has told them they can no longer use the popular payment technology because of concerns the coffee stand is selling beverages made from Cuban coffee beans.

Square Canada allows customers to tap or swipe their financial cards to pay for things — in this case coffee from Toronto's Little Havana coffee stand.

Little Havana's co owner, Monica Mustelier, said she'd been in contact with the technology company regularly since late August, after $14,000 in customer payments collected using Square never made it into her TD Canada Trust bank account.

In an earlier CBC News report, she said the company led her to believe the missing money was being held due to problems with an "acquiring processor." A Square Canada spokesperson had told CBC News, the situation wasn't "one-off" — but wasn't widespread, either.

It turns out, that's not the case, Mustelier says.

According to Mustelier, Square Canada told her the tech company uses the U.S. bank JPMorgan Chase & Co. to process payments, and the bank cannot or will not release the funds due to potential concerns over Little Havana's Cuban coffee beans.

"I was kind of shocked and mad, because we're a Canadian company using Cuban goods bought and sold in Canada," Mustelier told CBC News Monday.

Mustelier legally imports the coffee beans through a Montreal distributor.

Today, Valerie Jackson, Square Canada's communications manager, confirmed to CBC News the issue isn't a tech problem after all.

"I want to clarify that Square is not experiencing a technical glitch. While I cannot speak with you about Monica's individual case, I can tell you that Square's Customer Success team spoke with Monica yesterday, and she now knows the reason," she wrote in an email to CBC News.

The U.S. has a financial and commercial embargo against Cuba, severely limiting dealings with Cuban interests. Mustelier is Canadian and says she has no idea why a U.S. embargo is affecting her Canadian business.

"For the U.S. sanctions against Cuba to affect us so directly is a shock, because I know Canada and Cuba have good relations," she says.

CBC News​
The ****** apologists out there like to repeat their mantra that the embargo ain't so bad - I mean, Cuba can trade with anyone they like, right? Lots of countries out there that will sell to / buy from Cuba. What are you all upset about? Thousands of these little incidents all add up - and severely affect Cuba's ability to pursue even the most basic of international trade arrangements.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

While I agree that the US embargo has caused this issue, I am mystified why the Canadian government has, or should have, any responsibility, nor authority to intervene in an issue between a credit company and its client.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

CubaMark said:


> _The extraterritorial nature of the US embargo strikes again... and the current Canadian government, like those that preceded it, sits on its hands and shrugs. So much for sovereignty!_


Our sovereign control of JPMorgan's operations?

I don't like the U.S. policy, nor would I expect to benefit from the competitiveness of U.S. businesses while doing business with Cuba. Try an expensive Canadian option.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Hello, Bigot.

How is this any different than any other law abiding individual or business who has lost revenue due to politics? Or had their lives interfered with because of politics? And I'm not talking about the details but the principle.

Banks who refuse firearm company business but continue to deal with terrorists? Social media companies who shut down what are deemed as politically incorrect websites or accounts & cut off ad revenues? A brewery who makes you park farther away from the entrance because you drive a "gas guzzler"? Merely a handful of examples of Prog interference in our daily lives.

It's all political bull$h!t that many of us deal with on a regular basis (and have done so for years), yet nary a word from you. At least until that magical word, "CUBA!!!", jumps out at you from the page & suddenly you find your voice & you're running around with your hair on fire convinced the world is coming to an end.

Guess what, _******_? You reap what you sow. Your silence on the issues that have restricted those of us on the political right for decades is now coming back to bite you in the ass. It's damned difficult for me to find any sympathy for your concerns when you have ignored those of mine for so long.

Welcome to the club...



CubaMark said:


> blah, blah, blah, CUBA!!! blah, blah, blah


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

This is a bit simpler than it appears at first glance. Square One collected money for a Canadian business doing business in Canada, then refuses to pass the proceeds along to rightful owner(s).

Whatever excuse they may give, it is fraud pure and simple and the company and it's directors should be charged accordingly. This probably falls under provincial jurisdiction but wherever the responsibility lies, fraud charges are in order and should launched immediately

If Square One is politically uncomfortable with any Canadian business they should have every right to refuse to do business with them, however that does not give Square One right to steal from them.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

FeXL said:


> Hello, Bigot.
> 
> How is this any different than any other law abiding individual or business who has lost revenue due to politics? Or had their lives interfered with because of politics? And I'm not talking about the details but the principle.


Castro simply changed the laws of Cuba to allow the dictatorship to steal private property. I propose that Canada simply change the laws to allow Square Canada to continue to refuse to allow those beans to be paid for -- end of problem!


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Macfury said:


> Castro simply changed the laws of Cuba to allow the dictatorship to steal private property.


Took me a while to find it:


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Castro simply changed the laws of Cuba to allow the dictatorship to steal private property. I propose that Canada simply change the laws to allow Square Canada to continue to refuse to allow those beans to be paid for -- end of problem!


This has been discussed to death in this forum, but as usual your tactic of repeat something wrong enough times, hoping people eventually accept it as fact, only works when nobody responds with a reality check.

Nationalization of private property is something all states do - including Trump's Amerika, where they've done so along the southern border wall for his bigly (aka imaginary) fence. Cuba compensated all foreign nationals and companies for nationalized property, with the exception of those based in the USA, for the sole reason that the USA forbid its citizens and US-based corporations from negotiating with the communist administration, since it was so very confident that any day now their campaign of subterfuge, invasion, aerial bombings, biological plagues and fostering of terrorist acts on the island would bring about the fall of the Cuban government. That hasn't worked, and the USA prefers its unilateral application of a legal procedure (Title III lawsuits), when all of this could have been cleared up decades ago.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Nationalization of all private property is something few states do... 



CubaMark said:


> This has been discussed to death in this forum, but as usual your tactic of repeat something wrong enough times, hoping people eventually accept it as fact, only works when nobody responds with a reality check.
> 
> Nationalization of private property is something all states do - including Trump's Amerika, where they've done so along the southern border wall for his bigly (aka imaginary) fence. Cuba compensated all foreign nationals and companies for nationalized property, with the exception of those based in the USA, for the sole reason that the USA forbid its citizens and US-based corporations from negotiating with the communist administration, since it was so very confident that any day now their campaign of subterfuge, invasion, aerial bombings, biological plagues and fostering of terrorist acts on the island would bring about the fall of the Cuban government. That hasn't worked, and the USA prefers its unilateral application of a legal procedure (Title III lawsuits), when all of this could have been cleared up decades ago.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Nationalization of all private property is something few states do...


Cuba did *not* national *all* private property. That's a common misconception / propaganda levied against the Cuban Revolution.

Land ownership and the laws that surround it have changed over the decades with constitutional reforms, and if you do a search for it nowadays you'll be overwhelmed with information on the more recent reforms to permit private buying & selling of property (this is aimed primarily at the urban housing sector).

The initial agrarian reforms in Cuba following the triumph of the Revolution over the USA's best buddy, the murderous dictator Batista, were far less disruptive than people believe. Remember that enormous tracts of lands were in the hands of the very wealthy, involving massive sugarcane plantations, with rural farmers in fact being primarily sharecroppers and itinerant workers, not folks who owned the land on which they worked. This excerpt from a 1968 analysis of the agrarian reform is interesting:

"An important reason why the social revolution in rural Cuba was so peaceful was that less than 5 percent of the island's landowners were actually divested of their properties. For another thing, while the agrarian reform was characterized by 'confusion, uncertainty, and over-militancy' on the part of INRA cadres, there was little of the intense land hunger which exploded during the Mexican, Russian and Chinese revolutions. Only a 'few impatient peasants attempted to invade some large landed estates' during the early months of 1959. In May, for example, a small group of tenant farmers near Holguin jumped the gun on the law. INRA was able to keep the initiative because Cuba's rural labor force was mad eup mainly of either wage laborers or relatively secure tenant farmers, although the government, to be on the safe side, decreed in February that titles would be denied any peasant who had seized land without authorization after January 1, 1959."​
Some farmers also gained land during the reform:

"farmers.....were allowed to purchase more land, and many smaller planters were brought up to the 'basic minimum' of 2 _caballerias_. Of the 2.8 hectares of expropriated sugar land (much of it plains which had to reverted to pasture land after 1952), about 475,000 hectares were distributed to farmers in the former category. And it is significant that there was no attempt forcibly to collectivize the planters...."​
The full 49-page report is available here: Agrarian Reforms in Cuba, 1959-1963
Science & Society
Vol. 32, No. 2, Spring, 1968
(James O'Connor)​
Pretty much the entire discourse you hear about nationalizations and property "theft" under the Revolution comes from people with an axe to grind, not anyone who looks at the matter in the context of a country shrugging off an essentially colonial power (the USA being a substitute for Spain following the former's interference in Cuba's war for independence), with massive rural poverty and highly concentrated land and wealth.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Hello, Bigot.

Why, yes. Yes, it could have... beejacon



CubaMark said:


> ...all of this could have been cleared up decades ago.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> Cuba did *not* national *all* private property. That's a common misconception / propaganda levied against the Cuban Revolution.


my family deals with cuba and tourism - Cuba is part owner of everything in Cuba, like it our not.. Plus they manipulate staff, by firing them or moving them around positions in the country at will - one day we wake and we are dealing with "joe" who is head of tourism then the next month we call and "jane" answers saying "joe" was replaced.. 

My dad goes to cuba every 4 months, he ran into "joe" and at a hotel and he was a host at a restaurant, my dad asked what happened? he replies Cuba happened lol - they love to screw with employees hence most resorts are so screwed up, with no quality control.


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