# I hate to keep saying this but why do you think you are entitled to an iphone?



## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Warning: Rant follows.

This is something that has really bothered me over the past few days. I imagine I'll take some criticism for such a post but I know others share these sentiments as I've read them elsewhere.

Why do so many Canadians believe that they have a pure god-given right of entitlement to an iPhone regardless of Age, Sex, Gender, INCOME?? I mean, it's really kind of silly.

I can understand negativity towards high pricing but what I don't understand is how people just believe the iPhone Plans should have been low priced for the average Canadian? Why should it be? It's not an average product. 

The iPhone sadly folks is like a mac computer, for people that can afford them. If you can't afford one, you sadly aren't just entitled to one. Welcome to the world. 

I mean, I am reading and it's like people believe they should be entitled to a sports car or a $3000 suit or $400 jeans, just because?

Sadly, when you can't afford a $65 dollar bottle of Niagara's most tasty 2005 Le Clos Jordanne Grand Clos Pinot Noir, you drink the $8 bottle of Cat **** from the LCBO because THAT'S what you can afford. Le Clos or the LCBO in their partnership are NOT required to simply provide this stunning wine at a price every Canadian can afford. 

When a new Ferrari is released you don't see the Ferrari fan clubs starting protests because it should be priced the same as a Kia. Hell no. The ones that can afford the ferrari go buy the ferrari because they can. They don't care about the price.

I said this elsewhere but it's this sense of entitlement that is really wrong with the world today, especially in North America, we all tend to believe we are simply entitled to the newest, greatest, and best. Regardless of if we got an education or we worked our butts off to climb the corporate ladder or we spent 16 years in school to become a Doctor, I don't know but I see a few problems here.

Sadly, I've been paying $150 a month for my Blackberry for 3 years and subsequently one bill even topped out at $389 bucks. I am also unhappy with the pricing but you know what, if you can't afford it, you aren't automatically qualified or entitled for it. It's really simple.

Apple has always marketed to the affluent. When kids can't afford an ipod (because yes, a cheaper, crappier, non-stylish alternative exists) that's what they get. They don't automatically get the iPod. 

Now with that being said, Apple HAS made a conscious effort to put iPhone in the hands of all much like they have done with the iPod. But in the end, Apple really doesn't care how Rogers sells the phone. Do you really believe they do??? No way.

Apple, Steve and Apple's Marketing department know that on July 11 the phone will sell out. It will sell out instantly. They know that this puts more people into the Apple funnel who will eventually get iPods, iMacs, Apple TV's , possibly mac pros. Steve is running a business and the business is to make money. The people who can afford the luxury of owning an iPhone will be buying them on the 11th regardless of pricing. It's like flying first class. You can pay $400 to fly to London or you can pay $4000. Welcome to life in a consumer economy.

Do you think Apple wants every single person owning an iPhone? Sure. But does the average middle income "entitled" Canadian who keeps buying Dell's because they are cheap really matter? hmm Not so much... 

They want the people who can afford an iMac or a MacPro, or a Macbook. It's their marketing funnel and this is the first step into it. Do you really believe Apple's goal is to sell iPhones? Not a chance. Rogers is the outlet to begin the funnel.

I'm getting off track now but that's just where I want to leave it. The entitlement attitude during these past few days has been extremely interesting and showing of our society. "I deserve an iPhone" "Rogers owes us better pricing" "apple owes us to do something."

We can be pissed off all we want bu at the end of the day, Rogers will continue to charge us an arm and a leg, Apple will continue to develop higher priced products, and the people that can't afford them will use credit and debt to do so. lol.


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## lookitsmarc (Feb 2, 2008)

I think the root of a lot of people's anger is:

Imagine that $65 bottle of wine was sold to your neighbours for $40? Even if you can afford the $65, don't you think your still getting the raw end of the deal?


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

lookitsmarc said:


> I think the root of a lot of people's anger is:
> 
> Imagine that $65 bottle of wine was sold to your neighbours for $40? Even if you can afford the $65, don't you think your still getting the raw end of the deal?


Great point. That is the anger of some. But remember WAY bigger market. Way more vines making that wine. It's economics right? They can sell it for cheaper because they have both more supply and demand.

Please understand, I do believe Rogers has slapped us in the for the past ten years, but I am just confused about how we believed this would be any different. I too fell into the trap that maybe, just maybe we would see something different. 

Sadly, we had to know all along this would happen.

I'd say consider this a good thing. Not every single person in Canada will own an iPhone right away. It won't be extremely annoying like the Motorola Razr's were.

The coolness factor, the mac brainwash, will linger just a tad longer!


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

It's gone way beyond an iPhone. It's deeper than that. Canadians are being hosed, that's the long and short of it. We've been so quiet and docile while we've been taken to the cleaners. That's what polite Canadians are all about.

Because of the iPhone's high profile more people have had their eyes open. The iPhone protest has gone beyond just owning an iPhone or not. It's come down to perceived value and what many consider the greed issue.

I can afford an iPhone but I won't because what Rogers is offering is a rip-off. Like any other product which I consider to be of poor value, I simply won't buy it.


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## Garry (Jan 27, 2002)

Now, Imagine that same $65 bottle of wine you got with a third less in it than the $40 bottle of wine.

that's where I get a little steamed.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

Please understand said:


> lindmar, for me buddy....why did i think it would be different? b/c it's what keeps us going: hope!
> 
> hope that even with a smaller market we would see lower prices. hope that maybe 1 of the big 3 (bell, rogers, fido) would use their monopoly to keep prices high.
> 
> ...


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## Maverick (Sep 18, 2007)

I agree with lookitsmarc above. I think the basic disconnect, lindmar, is that you are assuming people feel entitled to an iPhone... which I believe is a huge assumption and not actually the case. I paid $600 for a 1.0 iPhone and thought is was worth every penny... in fact, I said many times that I would pay more for it. The problem is that Apple has obviously gone to great lengths to make the 3G iPhone available to EVERYONE (or at least everyone that would consider paying for a phone). Rogers has turned around and taken all that effort and turned it into (what they believe will be) a huge payday for them. That is obviously what's happened as we have AT&T to use a a baseline comparison. Yes, Canadian service would be more expensive, and I think most would have accepted that service here would be $10 more a month or so, but what rogers did was take a reasonably priced product and service offered by Apple and AT&T and make it completely unreasonable in Canada. There simply is no way that is acceptable. This is not a case of the "free market" deciding the price the market will bear because there is absolutely nothing free about the telco market in Canada. Rogers has a monopoly on GSM in Canada. I think a large part of the indignation stems from the fact that most all Canadians knew they've been screwed for years, but this is an obvious, easily comparable example that represents an abrupt slap in the face for Canadian subscribers.

So, I don't think its a sense of entitlement at all... its an immense sense of disappointment and a realization that you've been had for many, many years. I think this scandal has made people realize that they don't want to put up with it anymore. I know I don't.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

keebler27 said:


> ....why did i think it would be different?


Why did I/we think it would be different (aside from 'think different')?

I thought it would be different because when Jobs first announced and unveiled the first iPhone HE SAID IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT! Apple/iPhone were supposed to change the way cell phone companies did business. Indeed, initially it seemed that they would succeed - I for one would have been fairly happy with the original AT&T plan.

But the new 3G iPhone shows that Apple has completely failed! Slime like Robbers and the dog get to do business in the same old way. Doesn't anyone else get this?? 

It seems now that the delay in getting iPhone in a lot of markets had to do with the cell phone robber barons standing their ground. In the cell phone poker game, Apple folded.

For me it is not a matter of entitlement, it is about failed promise.


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## psxp (May 23, 2006)

>Sadly, I've been paying $150 a month for my Blackberry for 3 years and 
>subsequently one bill even topped out at $389 bucks. I am also unhappy
> with the pricing but you know what, if you can't afford it, you aren't
> automatically qualified or entitled for it. It's really simple

Some valid points, yes, if you cant afford it, then, too bad.. 

*BUT* What I think has people annoyed, especially me, is that they are charging more for less in the vocie plans.

The Voice Plans Suck balls. Evenings 9pm, no caller ID, base plan 150 daytime mins. They are counting on people adding the early evening option and caller id (total joke) and bringing their bills close to $100 on the $60 plan..


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## kmacphee (May 3, 2005)

I think some of the complaints *are* getting silly

I don't really mind the price points..but the data limits are the real problem. And the statement that 400mb = 3100 web pages is just plain misleading.

Having said that, maybe the system can't handle 1 million new iPhone users and the massive data they would use?

The prices/usage limits have to be restrictive in order to preserve the integrity of the network. 

I am not an engineer, just thinking out loud.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

lindmar, I don't own a cell phone, and don't want one, and I am not even thinking about buying an iPhone.

And I'm involved in this protest.

Why the heck should I care?!

Because for me, it's not about the iPhone. 
This issue is about unfair pricing and Rogers' continued abuse of their customers and me watching us Canadians getting screwed in general for my entire lifetime and the iPhone pricing being the final straw on the camel's back, which hopefully is mobilising Canadians (well, not _hopefully_ -it _is!_) to finally stand up and say "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" ( Thank you, Howard Beale )

As stated, I'm not even interested in buying an iPhone. 
But I'm a Rogers cable customer, and Rogers is absolutely criminal in how they treat customers. 
Some will say, "Well if you don't like Rogers, go with another company." Hahaha - Yeah, as Canadians, we all know how meaningless that statement is in this country with no competition.

I treat the iPhone and Rogers as the symbol around which Canadians will be able to finally rally and demand and force companies and the government to treat Canadians with respect.

It's not about the "right to own an iPhone, cheap". 
This is about the right to not be taken advantage of.
And I don't care if it takes a stupid little tech gadget to get the ball rolling.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

My main feeling of this entitlement attitude starts with that stupid open letter from James Hallen to Steve Jobs.

Specifically, 
"I was going to buy an iPhone for me, my girlfriend and my family.

Now, sadly, I cannot afford the plan.
"

You know what, tough luck? You were going to buy three iphones?!?! Because you thought what, the price plans would be free? 

It's just silly that THIS is our protest base. This guys site is the "National Protest" against Rogers. Seems sort of weak dont you think that we've allowed James Hallen to lead this charge because he can't afford it.

Anyways, great responses in this thread. Thanks. I understand there are many levels to this but there has only been one part that has really bugged me.


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## Flipstar (Nov 7, 2004)

kmacphee said:


> I think some of the complaints *are* getting silly
> 
> I don't really mind the price points..but the data limits are the real problem. And the statement that 400mb = 3100 web pages is just plain misleading.
> 
> ...


Hmm if that's true I wonder where my SAFs have been going for all these years. Maybe they should throttle encrypted data, its helped home Internet right?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

lindmar said:


> Warning: Rant follows.
> 
> This is something that has really bothered me over the past few days. I imagine I'll take some criticism for such a post but I know others share these sentiments as I've read them elsewhere.
> 
> ...


If there wasn't a free trade agreement in place between Canada and the US, I could see your point. That you've been paying too much for a Blackberry is kind of beside the point. Canadians have waited a full year after the iPhone was released to our neighbors to the South, even though we are their closest trading partners, even geographically, and the biggest obstacle it would appear was striking a deal with Rogers, the only current 3G provider. Steve Jobs is not particularly fond of phone companies and their jacked-up rates for service which is why Apple released the iPod Touch while they were haggling out deals with cell phone companies. 

There is nothing wrong with the price for the iPhone itself through Rogers, but the rate plan for data totally sucks, especially compared with our neighbors to the South, whose dollar is at about par. Rogers is sticking it to Apple fanboys because it wants to sell RIM products, not iPhones. The company employees know next to nothing about iPhones, they have been instructed not to promote the product, and you can guarantee on July 11 there will be TONS of problems rolling them out because Rogers has no idea what they're doing. $150 month is a ridiculous price to be for a glorified cellphone (a Blackberry), and just because you've been paying too much doesn't mean the gouging should continue. I think it's good that people stand up for their rights, _the right to opportunity in a free market system,_ before they commit to 3 year contracts for less value than our US friends will pat for.

The only glimmer of hope would seem to be the data-less plan starting at $15 a month, which so far has received little mention.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Garry said:


> Now, Imagine that same $65 bottle of wine you got with a third less in it than the $40 bottle of wine.
> 
> that's where I get a little steamed.


How about a $65 dollar bottle with an unlimited amount of wine in it?


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

> I mean, I am reading and it's like people believe they should be entitled to a sports car or a $3000 suit or $400 jeans, just because?


Actually, my income is in the top 10 percentile range in Canada.

I wear $400 jeans (my entire wardrobe of jeans consist of True Religion jeans, last week I purchased a new pair for $389).

I drive a late model BMW.

I have never owned a PC (went though Commodores and even an Atari ST in the 80's/90's but since then I have only owned Macs).

I get a new Mac about once every 1.5 years.

By age, income and education level, I am Apple's demographic sweet spot to a T. (My only "quirk" is that I live below my means, I have zero debt and spend less than I earn).

I will not be getting an iPhone. Why? When I buy something, I look at the value, not the cost. The iPhone itself is a wonderful piece of technology, that I want. The plan is just simply horrible on so many levels, but in brief, it does not offer a good enough value proposition for me. In fact, the plan is so bad that I'm willing to forego what should be a "no brainer" purchase, and you can be assured that I don't often say "no" to myself when I want to purchase something.

So what will I do? Most likely I will buy an unlocked previous generation iPhone and make do for now without the GPS, or stick with my Blackberry.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Kestral said:


> Actually, my income is in the top 10 percentile range in Canada.
> 
> I wear $400 jeans (my entire wardrobe of jeans consist of True Religion jeans, last week I purchased a new pair for $389).
> 
> ...


Perhaps it's not Rogers that we need to demonstrate our dissatisfaction with, but Apple itself. It would appear, at least on the surface, that Rogers is deliberately sabotaging its potential sales of iPhones to protect it's BlackBerry/Treo business. Apple is the company that could put pressure on if it feels Rogers is undermining its efforts to sell its product.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps it's not Rogers that we need to demonstrate our dissatisfaction with, but Apple itself. It would appear, at least on the surface, that Rogers is deliberately sabotaging its potential sales of iPhones to protect it's BlackBerry/Treo business. Apple is the company that could put pressure on if it feels Rogers is undermining its efforts to sell its product.


Another great point since many tend to believe Steve has a vested interest in changing the cellular industry. 

I'm afraid I can't buy into this. I buy into the fact that Apple is a company with one main objective like many others.

We'll see.


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## Roosterboy (Jun 10, 2006)

*Are they Really Criminals*

I'm not an economist or an engineer, but I am a stockholder in Rogers! The complaints I hear are really self-serving groundless veins of the entitlement argument. Will your life stop without an iPhone or even an unlimited data package? No, I will give a cell phone is a potentially a great safety policy if you find your self in dire need. But if being able to SMS, re-tune your calendar while waiting for the ambulance to arrive is now a requirement then we have larger issues at hand. Now, show me the annual financial statements for Rogers and point out where they have broken the law, cooked the books or deceived its customers or share holders. You don't like their product STOP using them. If you have a spare 4 plus billion dollars start your own cell company. I'm going to guess you might need some help with the business plan and seed money. Pretty sure some of your investors will not be altruistic as many of the complainers in the ehmac forums. Miss a projected growth target, customer base or market share and you will find yourself without your company. Lets look at both sides of the coin before we all start making accusations none of us can back up. It’s a cool phone, built for those who can afford it and feel it adds something to their life, business or personal management. See you in line!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Well, if Apple's objective is to sell as many iPhones as possible to Canadians, they'll be a little pi$$ed to find out Rogers is trying to scare them away. Again, except for the $15 data-less option, which would be like a cheap iPod Touch with a built in cell-phone.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Roosterboy said:


> I'm not an economist or an engineer, but I am a stockholder in Rogers! The complaints I hear are really self-serving groundless veins of the entitlement argument. Will your life stop without an iPhone or even an unlimited data package? No, I will give a cell phone is a potentially a great safety policy if you find your self in dire need. But if being able to SMS, re-tune your calendar while waiting for the ambulance to arrive is now a requirement then we have larger issues at hand. Now, show me the annual financial statements for Rogers and point out where they have broken the law, cooked the books or deceived its customers or share holders. You don't like their product STOP using them. If you have a spare 4 plus billion dollars start your own cell company. I'm going to guess you might need some help with the business plan and seed money. Pretty sure some of your investors will not be altruistic as many of the complainers in the ehmac forums. Miss a projected growth target, customer base or market share and you will find yourself without your company. Lets look at both sides of the coin before we all start making accusations none of us can back up. It’s a cool phone, built for those who can afford it and feel it adds something to their life, business or personal management. See you in line!


In that case, Mr. Stockholder in Rogers, can you explain why the rates and length of plans are so different on either side of the Canadian-US border? Not too many shareholders are going to be so happy if people start boycotting Rogers in droves. How will that affect your quarterly earnings?


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

lindmar said:


> Another great point since many tend to believe Steve has a vested interest in changing the cellular industry.
> 
> I'm afraid I can't buy into this. I buy into the fact that Apple is a company with one main objective like many others.
> 
> We'll see.


You're probably right about Apple's motives. Although many took it to heart (including myself) when Jobs mentioned at the initial iPhone launch that unlimited data plans was offered because they didn't want people trying to figure out how much it was costing them. It was suppose to be about the user experience. 

But from the responses I've seen here and other sites, the anger boils down to greed. I grabbed this posting from the Globe and Mail comments which underscores how Rogers' plans are downright greedy. 

_"So let me get this right. AT&T lets its users have unlimited data access in the US and up to 5GB of data while roaming in Canada for $30 a month, while Rogers charges $137 a month for 2GB in Canada only. I guess I'm going down to the US to pick up my iPhone...."_


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> In that case, Mr. Stockholder in Rogers, can you explain why the rates and length of plans are so different on either side of the Canadian-US border? Not too many shareholders are going to be so happy if people start boycotting Rogers in droves. How will that affect your quarterly earnings?


Canada: 30 million people.
USA: 300 million people.

If I have 10 customers I can sell product A for $5.
If I have 100 customers I can sell product A for $4.

It's that simple.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

Roosterboy said:


> See you in line!


Ah yes, but the actions from your man Ted, surely has shortened the lines of potential Bell and Telus customers thinking to switch over. And for 3 years no less. 

Priced fairly (not cheap but fair), Rogers would have locked in thousands more thus meeting those quarterly targets you speak of.

I'd also be concerned about the bad PR and public backlash and what it's going to do to your share price.


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## eggman (Jun 24, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Well, if Apple's objective is to sell as many iPhones as possible to Canadians, they'll be a little pi$$ed to find out Rogers is trying to scare them away. Again, except for the $15 data-less option, which would be like a cheap iPod Touch with a built in cell-phone.


Hi fjnmusic,

*If *there is a $15 data-less option (and I'm willing to wait until the 11th to see this) it will *NOT* have a cheap iPhone with it.

You can expect to pay much more for the iPhone (estimates run between 2 and 3.5 times the contract with data cost) itself if you sign it up on that kind of contract - this is how Rogers is covering their cost for the phone.

This is what Rogers (and all the cellphone companies do) - you can get a cheap phone for free with a contract, you can get an expensive phone for less with a more expensive contract. Just look at Rogers own website for their "with 3 year contract" and "with no contract" costs for the 'cool' phones - that will give you an idea of the magnitude of the price difference we're likely to see - *IF *a $15 voice only plan is available for a 3G iPhone.

I don't think we'll see that business model changed here.

Don't get your hopes up too high.


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## kb244 (Apr 23, 2002)

Could move to japan, pricing plans including data are so chepa they can afford to have 3 phones with plans running at once, with unlimited and more bandwidth than the US or Canada could offer. Course the price of everything else seems to go up though.


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## kb244 (Apr 23, 2002)

fjnmusic said:


> In that case, Mr. Stockholder in Rogers, can you explain why the rates and length of plans are so different on either side of the Canadian-US border? Not too many shareholders are going to be so happy if people start boycotting Rogers in droves. How will that affect your quarterly earnings?


Course apparently the price difference isn't quite enough to drive away folks who "really" want an iPhone. Besides in Canada, where else you going to get an iPhone 3G from?


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

lindmar said:


> ... $65 dollar bottle of Niagara's most tasty 2005 Le Clos Jordanne Grand Clos Pinot Noir...


Is it *REALLY* that tasty?

That's all I have to ask, because this whole ridiculous business over the iPhone in Canada is just a lot of sour grapes!  But it sure is a ton of fun reading so much about so little.


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## Ottawaman (Jan 16, 2005)

hayesk said:


> Canada: 30 million people.
> USA: 300 million people.
> 
> If I have 10 customers I can sell product A for $5.
> ...


Canada does have a small population, but it has the world’s most urbanized population as well. With coverage in 6 cities, you have 50% of the country.
Look at the various cell phone coverage maps, it's not like they have to cover the entire geographic landscape.
So are you saying that Rogers will incur a higher cost per unit from Apple?


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Mississauga said:


> Is it *REALLY* that tasty?
> 
> That's all I have to ask, because this whole ridiculous business over the iPhone in Canada is just a lot of sour grapes!  But it sure is a ton of fun reading so much about so little.


One of the best Canadian Wines ever produced. Period.
Even the Village Reserve is fantastic at $25 bucks a bottle. 

Just looked, seems they might still have some available which is interesting. Trying to get this in the LCBO was worse than the ipod on launch day! Huge lineups for the stuff.

https://www.vincorsecurepayment.com/leclos/wineSales/PackageAvails.asp?Instance=8


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I do not understand how people can compare Canada to the US! Do you really envy Americans because they have an iPhone for cheap! They have to live in the US for god´s sake ! I will take a health care system, low crime rates, better economy, less poverty and not having a President that beat Mao´s record for the most people rioting against him and his country at any given time....instead of a cheap iPhone.


I am "up there" on the corporate latter and I will not be getting an iPhone 3G. 

PS. 400 dollar jeans are made in the same factories as the 100 dollar jeans. Great value for the cost .


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> I do not understand how people can compare Canada to the US! Do you really envy Americans because they have an iPhone for cheap! They have to live in the US for god´s sake ! I will take a health care system, low crime rates, better economy, less poverty and not having a President that beat Mao´s record for the most people rioting against him and his country at any given time....instead of a cheap iPhone.
> 
> 
> I am "up there" on the corporate latter and I will not be getting an iPhone 3G.
> ...


And another good handful of points.

Cheap iPhone with Unlimited Data, Country at War, Economy Going down the tubes, pretty much the worst reputation you could get world wide, proper healthcare out of reach to most people or..

Pay more for your iPhone
Pay more in taxes
Great Health care
Great Reputation Abroad ( for the most part )
Live in Canada.

I'll take Canada over our US Neighbors any day.


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

Ottawaman said:


> Canada does have a small population, but it has the world’s most urbanized population as well. With coverage in 6 cities, you have 50% of the country.
> Look at the various cell phone coverage maps, it's not like they have to cover the entire geographic landscape.
> So are you saying that Rogers will incur a higher cost per unit from Apple?


Actually, if you cover the top 11 cities in Canada, you cover over 90% of the entire population.

Canada may have more land, but people more densely populate the top cities so if anything, people in the US are more spread out than in Canada.


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> PS. 400 dollar jeans are made in the same factories as the 100 dollar jeans. Great value for the cost .


It is.

I already had my salad years where I had two pairs of the same jeans I bought for 30 bucks and wore them for 3 years.

I've lived in the lower 10% of income earners and I now life in the top. I can tell you that some of those "costs" justify the value added.

For example, rolling around in a pair of True Religions elicits a very different reaction from people compared to a pair of American Eagle jeans. Sure, I'm the same person, but the perception is different. And yes, when people get a chance to take the time to know me they'll get the same positive reaction no matter what brand of jeans I wear. At this point, I've reached a stage where time is far more important to me than money. And a lot of times I don't have the time or inclination to make a second impression to fix the first one. Money solves a lot of problems, this is one of them.

Right or wrong, it is what it is. Perhaps one day you will come to understand this as well.


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

lindmar said:


> One of the best Canadian Wines ever produced. Period.
> Even the Village Reserve is fantastic at $25 bucks a bottle.
> 
> https://www.vincorsecurepayment.com/leclos/wineSales/PackageAvails.asp?Instance=8


Thanks for the link, lindmar!

While it's been some time since wine tasting was a hobby, I still look for the occasional good vintage. Unfortunately, buying a case (6 bottles) wouldn't serve my interests. I fear I may drink them all in short order! 

Perhaps I'll scour through my friends for a "partner".

Cheers!


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Mississauga said:


> Thanks for the link, lindmar!
> 
> While it's been some time since wine tasting was a hobby, I still look for the occasional good vintage. Unfortunately, buying a case (6 bottles) wouldn't serve my interests. I fear I may drink them all in short order!
> 
> ...


I'll help you drink it!


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

hayesk said:


> Canada: 30 million people.
> USA: 300 million people.
> 
> If I have 10 customers I can sell product A for $5.
> ...


You failed to do your homework. 

Canada is now at 33.3 million people .

Also those numbers don't matter why? Canada has more people hooked up to highspeed internet across the country then in the entire country of the US with a population of over 300 million. Canada may have less population, but we use the internet more and thrive on technology far more then in the US. We are a great market to sell to, we just don't deserve to be ripped off any longer in fees and other costs.


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

I want to say that I personally am not entitled to an iPhone. No one person really is I guess. I have said it before that I'm willing to pay the base price of $60. However, in this day and age what Rogers keeps doing with charging system access fees, 911 fees etc. for something that NO OTHER major carrier in the US or outside of the BIG 3 Carriers in Canada (Bell, Rogers, Telus) charges, is absolutely highway robbery. If you can explain why Koodo or Virgin Mobile can get away without charging these System Access Fees on their monthly contracts and I'm not talking about Pay As You Go, but actual contract agreements, then lets hear it! I'm sick of seeing the competition of these little guys not charging these fees, and yet the big 3 carriers (Bell, Telus and Rogers) keep at it with these fees.

Also, like I said earlier too, I will pay the $60 base price, but why must I pay $15 or $20 to ADD Caller ID? Are you telling me that charging that price for Caller ID is justified in owning an iPhone? If so, then Blackberry users are dumber then I thought and Rogers isn't charging you users enough in FEES period. Why does Rogers start time for UNLIMTED TALK TIME start at 9:00PM??? No other CARRIER in Canada has such a START TIME!!! Seriously, look at what people are complaining about:

1. System Access Fees
2. Caller ID starting @ $15 or $20
3. 400MB instead of bumping it to at least 1GB (Doesn't have to be unlimited)
4. Start time of Unlimited Talk Time @ 9:00PM Why?????

Am I entitled to an iPhone? Sure why not? Am I entitled to pay System Access Fees? NO! to pay for a START TIME at 9:00PM? NO! to pay $15 or $20 for Caller ID? NO! to pay for Data of 400MB instead of at least 1GB starting? NO! Can I afford to buy an iPhone and if Rogers makes the above changes use their service? YES!


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

True, this sense of entitlement can get a lot of people in trouble. Cell providers know this and exploit it. 

I'm not a fan of the big 3. I was even flat out lied to twice when I first took a contract with Bell. Once about the amount of daytime minutes I was signing on for, and the other about a phone that still drained the battery if you plugged it into the wall while talking (no other phone I've known does that, if you run out of batteries while talking you can plug it in and keep going). No amount of complaining resolved it. This is why I'm against 3 year contracts. What's the point of saving money on a handset if the company is going to recoup all that and more when they continue to raise the costs through out the duration of your 3 year contract? I don't personally know anyone who hasn't had a problem with their hardware that wasn't resolved by re-extending their 3 year contract.

I can understand if people are unhappy about the rates, not because they are outrageous, but because they are only going to become more expensive over the 3 years. If they ever do drop their rates or offer an unlimited plan to new customers you'd better believe that everyone that's got a contract will have to pay through the nose to get their hands on it.


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## alef0 (Jun 30, 2008)

I currently own a Macbook Pro and a Macbook Air and with the current Rogers plans if I would get the iPhone and use it for what it was meant to be used I think I would pay well in excess of 200$/mo.

I am used to pay at least 20% more than our U.S. friends, but it seems that Rogers took it a little far this time.

Where is your argument again?


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## ruffdeezy (Mar 17, 2008)

Great post
I think the main issue is the lack of data at the low end (high data usage doesn't equal high voice usage). The other main issue is that they are forcing you to spend 20 bucks on the value pack just so you can have caller ID which is a neccessity on the iPhone. These are predatory practices!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

eggman said:


> Hi fjnmusic,
> 
> *If *there is a $15 data-less option (and I'm willing to wait until the 11th to see this) it will *NOT* have a cheap iPhone with it.
> 
> ...


Good point. I don't have my hopes at all, though. Just telling you what I read in the Edmonton Journal, Victoria Colonist, and however many other papers this article appeared in.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I am in Mexico right now and the word is 30 USD for 30 MBs. A buck a Meg. Now that blows the big one. That said, I am going to see what the fee is to break the contract and if it is right I might score one and break the contract an hopefully jailbreak it and throw in a SIM in Canada. Oh Koodoo, why do you have to be on CDMA??????


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

Open letter to Ted Rogers: RE Taking over the Industry

They could take over the world for Wireless if Ted and the shareholders were not so 'Right now' Greedy.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

For myself, it comes down to a number of issues.

The CRTC, or whoever is in charge (because all of the filth in Ottawa washes their hands of the responsibility) flubbed when they determined that "the consumer should decide". Consumers are uninformed, and know little about cellular technology, so the consumers choose unwisely. We ended up becoming retrograde, far behind the rest of the world. Everywhere else, they immediately went GSM, had excellent service, and a great amount of real competition. Here, we got stuck with Digital PCS, then that CDMA garbage, then rogered with expensive GSM - when we should have just always had GSM.

We had to "wait" and inappropriate amount of time, and when people went south of the border to buy, they had no support from the monopolies here. Instead, they were selling rubbish like Windoze based "unSmart Phones", and the Motorola Razr garbage. If we had a free market with the real goods, all of that garbage would never have sold, saving our landfill sites because all of those phones are entirely obsolete, and always have been. Now I know there are people that actually like the Razr - but it is not GSM, therefore it is obsolete because GSM is used in pretty much every other country - except here and the US where they love to hose the customer. It would be as if we, because we are Canadians, can only buy a 2005 vehicle while the 2008's were out in the US.

The iPhone is only available for a proprietary service that had a rather pricey plan attached to it, with a long contract. I would have bought one if we had the ability to go with a high quality carrier like Cingular (which is deceased); or perhaps even with a discounter like Virgin. But no, Fraudgers it is, and if you don't live or travel inside their little tiny network coverage area - no iPhone.

I also have grown tired of these "plans" which just fill the pockets of the filthy rich. Some people may benefit, of course, but they should also have a pay as you go option (which Virgin has). And I mean a real pay as you go option, not some freaky crummy service like Fried-o where you have to hunt down some crazy variety store every month to get a calling card.

Smart phones in general need data, that is the selling point - and data needs to have some form of acceptable pricing. A cent per MB would be fine - but currently we pay some crazy data prices that are among the highest in the world, something like $5 per MB or some jazz like that. We should be at least competitive with Rwanda and Somalia.

If I was elsewhere in the world, I'd have an iPhone - but in Canada, well, it's best just not to bother with a cell phone in the first place, because the monopolies are all out to price gouge - just like the rest of our monopolies: where you get gouged at the gas pumps, at the grocery stores, and the Home Despot...


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## Drizzx (Jun 30, 2008)

I agree with you Lindmar that the iPhone is not for everyone. People who would complain that $75-$90 a month are probably outside the league of this device today. In 5 years that could all change (and should)

however, as so many of stated before, the true issue with the iPhone through Rogers isn't the price, but rather the value. $90 for any other phone with the combination of features/minutes/data offered in the iPhone package with any other carrier would be unacceptable to even the phone companies. Because its the "iPhone" and because they have a monopoly on the GSM market, Rogers thinks they can charge a premium for its use. I'm not totally against a bit of a premium for the best technology, but for my money I want to be able to use the device without worries of overcharges.


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## GrapeApe (Aug 4, 2004)

No one thinks they are entitled to an iPhone, this is the dumbest thing I've ever read.

The issue is a closed market using its power to keep rates artificially high, a situation that has been exacerbated and encouraged by our government's woefully inadequate wireless communications policy.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

hayesk said:


> Canada: 30 million people.
> USA: 300 million people.
> 
> If I have 10 customers I can sell product A for $5.
> ...


Uh, not quite. It doesn't consider things like demand, materials, wages and the like. Otherwise one could simply say:

If I WANT 10 customers, I can sell product A for $5.
If I WANT 100 customers I can sell product A for $4.
If product A is a hot item, I can sell it for $50 because of high demand and make millions, but otherwise alienate customers who will jump ship the moment it's available at other stores.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I'll add one more bit to the pot. As far as I've seen, not one Canadian has asked Rogers to supply the phone for free, like is the case in some countries. We've accepted to pay the full subsidized price.

Canadians are asking for fairness in pricing instead of being gouged. This protest isn't completely pointed at Rogers since the other telcos know they are on the hook too.

With the exception of very few other countries, unlimited data is the norm at a reasonable price.

Rogers should lead the way. Geez, they could turn this around and make themselves look like gods to the world.

My suggestion to Rogers:

current voice plan + unlimited data for $30

voice plan with no data

If they did this 99% of the complaints would cease overnight.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

GrapeApe said:


> No one thinks they are entitled to an iPhone, this is the dumbest thing I've ever read.
> 
> The issue is a closed market using its power to keep rates artificially high, a situation that has been exacerbated and encouraged by our government's woefully inadequate wireless communications policy.


Actually,

the dude running this little protest believes he is entitled to three, one for himself, his girlfriend and his parents, but is pissed off at Steve because he can't afford it.

I guess the base of my post was that, if this is who we're going to let lead the charge against something bigger, because this Hallen dope believes he's entitled to an iphone, we have no shot at anything.

He couldn't afford the bandwidth either and now, when the petition was growing and getting up there, reported on major news outlets tonight, his site is down.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

lindmar said:


> Actually,
> 
> the dude running this little protest believes he is entitled to three, one for himself, his girlfriend and his parents, but is pissed off at Steve because he can't afford it.
> 
> ...


With respect to the petition-starter's expectations, I think you're confusing this site's "iphonelover"'s petition with the ruinediphone.com petition.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

lindmar said:


> Actually,
> 
> the dude running this little protest believes he is entitled to three, one for himself, his girlfriend and his parents, but is pissed off at Steve because he can't afford it.
> 
> ...


In his defense, while he may be immature in expressing his frustration, he's actually doing something about it. More than a whole lot of other Canadians who will simply gripe and then give in. Whether or not it amounts to anything remains to be seen. But hey, if he ends up being the catalyst that gets Rogers to lower plans...

BTW, I also highly doubt he or any one of us expected the number of respondents to his petition.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Try getting in, then let me know how our free society is going.

http://www.ruinediphone.com/


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Are you serious?



iJohnHenry said:


> Try getting in, then let me know how our free society is going.
> 
> http://www.ruinediphone.com/


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Did you at least try before posting??


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

iJohnHenry said:


> Did you at least try before posting??


Geez, we know it doesn't work. But your conspiracy theory doesn't wash. There are scores of reasons why websites don't work.

Edit: then again, who knows?

http://www.ehmac.ca/ipod-itunes-iphone-apple-tv/66244-official-statement-ruinediphone-com.html


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

In regards to competition in the Great White North I am a firm sceptic.


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