# Big ElCap irritant



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

<Rant>So for the umpteenth time a simple pdf created in Numbers has failed to open, giving me a dialog box saying: ' “xxx.pdf” can’t be opened because it is from an unidentified developer. '

So I do the right click open with routine, check the box to tell it to always open with Preview, even save changes when I close it. Then a day or 2 down the road I'm right back where I started.tptptptp

Same issue with some rtf files created in Text Edit.

Enough with the bells and whistles, maybe Apple should concentrate on just making things work.</Rant>


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

Can't you just switch your Gatekeeper (System Preferences> Security & Privaqcy> General) to "anywhere"?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Thanks.

It honestly never occurred to me that Gatekeeper would sometimes prevent me from opening an rtf file created in TextEdit. If so that makes it effectively useless, guess that should not be a surprise.

Have made the change and we will see what happens.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

Keep me posted! And if the trick works, I think Gatekeeper is indeed over reacting.

How on earth should it see an RTF file you've written yourself as coming from an unknown developer?

Are these your own texts, or edits of texts from the internet?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

hexdiy said:


> Keep me posted! And if the trick works, I think Gatekeeper is indeed over reacting.
> 
> How on earth should it see an RTF file you've written yourself as coming from an unknown developer?
> 
> Are these your own texts, or edits of texts from the internet?


Created on this computer, in Text Edit even in the same profile.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

Maybe you should run Malwarebytes Mac to see if your Mac has caught some bogies...


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> Enough with the bells and whistles, maybe Apple should concentrate on just making things work.


I sure won't disagree with that comment.

Meanwhile, it seems you aren't along and have a read here:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6709486

And it seems the similar problem has been around for some time now and still is:
https://www.google.com/search?clien...m+an+unidentified+developer&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8






- Patrick
======


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Yeah, I have this happening constantly with a Pages document. Created on my laptop, in Pages, saved in Pages format, all frickin' Pages, all the way.

Someone in an Apple Discussion Forum suggested a fix, but I haven't gotten around to checking it out. But it's honestly the stupidest problem macOS has ever given me... I'll try to get to the fix tomorrow and post if it works.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

Just keep your Gatekeeper in check, dear people! Switch off System Integrity Protection (SIP) as well.

I hate passwords & overly protected Macs as well. Switching off SIP requires a Terminal command:

```
csrutil disable
```
Source: https://www.imore.com/how-turn-system-integrity-protection-macos

SIP has been introduced since El Capitan, I think. Can we stay on top of our Mac OS, please, Apple?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Integrity_Protection

Note: this command will rule out excessive rootless sandboxing on Mac OS.
If you like to play it rough & stay vigilant yourself, that is...


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

hexdiy said:


> Just keep your Gatekeeper in check, dear people! Switch off System Integrity Protection (SIP) as well.
> 
> I hate passwords & overly protected Macs as well. Switching off SIP requires a Terminal command:
> 
> ...




I was thinking of adding such a comment and SIP is disabled on most of my Macs.

And there's still too much OS X annoying nagging happening at times.



- Patrick
======


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

So far just disabling Gatekeeper seems to be working. Will update if that changes.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm very happy we've been able to find a cure together!

Still puzzled Gatekeeper does that to simple text files & pdfs though!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

hexdiy said:


> I'm very happy we've been able to find a cure together!
> 
> Still puzzled Gatekeeper does that to simple text files & pdfs though!


Not quite. Happened again this morning. Gave me the message with the option to open, then opened the pdf in iBooks.

Clearly a WTF was Apple thinking situation. 

Even worse is that I do have the extension visible with the file, so no excuses for the OS becoming disoriented and not knowing what it is dealing with.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

And the WTF moments continue.

This morning selected a group of jpgs, double clicked only to have them open in FireFox. Have never used FF to view images, Preview has always been the default but today it was FireFox.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> And the WTF moments continue.
> 
> This morning selected a group of jpgs, double clicked only to have them open in FireFox. Have never used FF to view images, Preview has always been the default but today it was FireFox.


I often have my jpgs open in Adobe Photoshop instead of Preview.
Preview is also my default.

When I then change the default back to Preview, it works for a few days or a few weeks and then suddenly reverts back to Photoshop again even though I have not even used Photoshop during that time.

This has been going on ever since I was forced to upgrade from Snow Leopard (which was nice and stable and had no such issues) to El Capitan.

I'm beginning to wonder if that happens because the Mac can't find "Preview" to open the jpg so it takes whatever app is available next to open the file.
I say that because when I go to "Get Info" to change the application to open jpgs back to Preview, Preview doesn't show up on the application list - I have to go to "Other" and select Preview there.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> I'm beginning to wonder if that happens because the Mac can't find "Preview" to open the jpg so it takes whatever app is available next to open the file.
> I say that because when I go to "Get Info" to change the application to open jpgs back to Preview, Preview doesn't show up on the application list - I have to go to "Other" and select Preview there.



Try cleaning out some of the crap and junk files and do some house keeping by shutting down your Mac, then boot up using Safe Boot Mode (press and hold shift key during boot up), login and then just restart normally and hopefully that will make a difference and get things working better. 

I now do this weekly just as part of my regular Mac maintenance with Mavericks. I don't ever remember having to do such maintenance when running Snow Leopard. But things have changed in the later Apple OS X versions it seems, and not for the better.





- Patrick
======


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Patrick -
I'm not sure what you mean by "crap and junk" files - I don't have any of those.
Or is there perhaps a program that identifies them?

I have run malwarebytes several times, disk utility things everything is fine, so does Disk Warrior.

This problem is very intermittent - sometimes does not happen for weeks and other times it can happen several times a day.
There is just no rhyme or reason.
And because it can happen very infrequently and is not really reproducable, at least I haven't found some possible common cause, it's pretty much impossible to figure out the cause.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

krs said:


> I often have my jpgs open in Adobe Photoshop instead of Preview.
> Preview is also my default.
> 
> When I then change the default back to Preview, it works for a few days or a few weeks and then suddenly reverts back to Photoshop again even though I have not even used Photoshop during that time.
> ...


Same issue here, also even happens with TextEdit created .rtf files. Thankfully now that I have another older MacPro up and running I will always be opening .jpgs in Snow Leopard. Most of the time I will be using Snow Leopard when I am dealing with TextEdit files as well.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> Same issue here, also even happens with TextEdit created .rtf files. Thankfully now that I have another older MacPro up and running I will always be opening .jpgs in Snow Leopard. Most of the time I will be using Snow Leopard when I am dealing with TextEdit files as well.


I use TextEdit a fair amount but I never had a TextEdit file open in any other application when I double click on the file.
What application does a TextEdit file open for you if not in TextEdit?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

krs said:


> I use TextEdit a fair amount but I never had a TextEdit file open in any other application when I double click on the file.
> What application does a TextEdit file open for you if not in TextEdit?


Pages.

Have even had issues with pdf files, can't recall what app they tried to bring up, but it was not Preview.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> Pages.
> 
> Have even had issues with pdf files, can't recall what app they tried to bring up, but it was not Preview.


I have Pages in my Application folder, but an older version, 5.6.2
However, I have not used Pages for a very long time, maybe never since I started using ElCap.
I always end up using Word.

I use pdf's a lot, actually many times each day - reading, creating, modifying - the whole ten yards. Both with Preview and with Acrobat but I don't remember a pdf file ever opening with a different application than what I expected.
Other strange things happened - like a pdf file I had created with Acrobat would crash everytime I tried to reduce the file size, but Preview had no problem doing the same thing; or Preview rendering the pdf differently that Acrobat.
Sometimes Preview would not open a pdf file that used to open fine before - got a message that I didn't have sufficient priviledges except when I checked "Get Info" it showed I had every read and write priveledge possible. Fix for that was to shut down Preview and relaunch it.
Lots of ElCap "irritants", one gets to live with them or work around them - basically shoddy software and inadequate testing by Apple.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> Patrick -
> I'm not sure what you mean by "crap and junk" files - I don't have any of those.
> Or is there perhaps a program that identifies them?



Oh you'll have some for sure, especially if you use your Mac a fair bit. And no, I don't know of any app that shows them.

If you want to see what's involved, take a screenshot of your boot drive Get Info window showing the space used etc. Before doing a Safe Boot, and then another one after a restart and I'll be very surprised if you don't see a difference of used or available space.

The difference will be all the junk/surplus files that got removed.





- Patrick
======


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> or Preview rendering the pdf differently that Acrobat.


To be unknown problem for several years now and through various Mac OS Versions unfortunately.



> Lots of ElCap "irritants", one gets to live with them or work around them - basically shoddy software and inadequate testing by Apple.


Also another very unfortunate situation that doesn't seem to be improving much, even with later Mac OS Versions. :-(





- Patrick
======


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

pm-r said:


> Oh you'll have some for sure, especially if you use your Mac a fair bit. And no, I don't know of any app that shows them.
> 
> If you want to see what's involved, take a screenshot of your boot drive Get Info window showing the space used etc. Before doing a Safe Boot, and then another one after a restart and I'll be very surprised if you don't see a difference of used or available space.
> 
> ...


Just to make sure I understand....
Check Get Info of boot drive now and then restart in safe mode and check Get Info of boot drive again?
The used and available space will of course be different since "safe boot" doesn't load a lot of items. That doesn't mean those are crap and junk.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> The used and available space will of course be different since "safe boot" doesn't load a lot of items. That doesn't mean those are crap and junk.


No, completely different items and not related at all. The legit items that don't get loaded will still be on your boot volume and untouched.





- Patrick
======


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

pm-r said:


> No, completely different items and not related at all. The legit items that don't get loaded will still be on your boot volume and untouched.
> 
> - Patrick
> ======


OK, I see what you mean.
So is this procedure correct?
_Check Get Info of boot drive now and then restart in safe mode and check Get Info of boot drive again?_

I don't really understand how a safe boot will delete "junk" items, but I will try that tomorrow.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

krs said:


> OK, I see what you mean.
> So is this procedure correct?
> _Check Get Info of boot drive now and then restart in safe mode and check Get Info of boot drive again?_
> 
> I don't really understand how a safe boot will delete "junk" items, but I will try that tomorrow.



Almost, but just check first and before Safe Boot, boot Safe Boot, login, then Restart then check once booted normally.

I'm sure Apple has a KB article on what a SafeBoot does and what and why it purges the old surplus stuff it does if you or anyone is interested.







- Patrick
======


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Ok - did what you suggested, Patrick.
The three "Get Info" windows of the boot drive are attached as one image
Left - Current boot
Middle - After booting up in safe mode
Right - Normal boot after just having booted up previously in Safe Mode

Going through the safe boot exercise made almost 3 GB of additional space available.
Is that what you meant by "crap and junk"?

I suppose I can try some of the irritants to see if any of them disappeared.

Talking about irritants - I had another one last night that I also had before.
Took a screen shot of my desktop to show ISP support the log file of my cable modem.
Then used grab to just select the actual log file on the screen - that gave me a tiff file
Used Preview to save that tiff file as a jpeg file since any people with PCs don't seem to be able to open tiff files.
Even though I had selected "jpeg" as the format, the message came up - file already exists and it showed the name with the tiff extension
Same when I tried saving it in preview as a pdf file.
I have done that many times before, used grab and then used preview "save as" to save the same image as a jpeg and usually that works fine, but occasionally, like last night, it does not. 
Just tried that again with the same tiff file which I had on a folder on my desktop - no problem this time, saved the image as jpeg as if there never was a problem.
I wonder - did the "save boot" exercise actually fix that????


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> Going through the safe boot exercise made almost 3 GB of additional space available.
> Is that what you meant by "crap and junk"?



Yup!! 

That's the stuff that can mess up ones Mac's daily activities.



> Just tried that again with the same tiff file which I had on a folder on my desktop - no problem this time, saved the image as jpeg as if there never was a problem.
> I wonder - did the "[safe boot]" exercise actually fix that????


As I said above. And an excellent cheap Mac OS C maintenance tool!!!


And another would be to remove surplus localizations/languages to gain precious storage space, especially on an SSD!!!
That can gain one an additional, up to 4 – 6 GB, drive space!!! But that's a different subject.








- Patrick
======


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I see Monolingual is still out there. Now that I have the base OS built I may give it a try.

BTW for those who have been trying to deal with one of the later abortions of the iWorks programs. I was able to copy iWorks09 from Snow Leopard over to ElCap. Also had to copy the 2 iWorks09 preference files from /Library/Preferences. And the iWorks09 folder from /Library/ApplicationSupport. Works like a charm. Numbers in particular is better laid out and easier to navigate than the new improved versions.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> I see Monolingual is still out there. Now that I have the base OS built I may give it a try.



The last few times I used Monolingual, probably over a year or more now, it was basically useless regardless of the developer's comments, and I even tried running it with Maverick's security stuff disabled.

But maybe his latest version finally actually works as it should. 

The only way to delete all surplus language folders AFAIK is to do so with Find Any File.app using Root permissions option. And to know what you're doing and what not to delete!!!

And I understand that SIP in Mojave is even less forgiving!! Big understatement there!!!


EDIT:
The comments don't look too good either and I just checked:
https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/7758/monolingual





- Patrick
======


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Just came across another one:

Have a list of books I want to buy along with some other text in an eail in Apple Mail
Lined out the ones I have bought (using Format>Show Fonts and selecting the single line crossout)
Worked fine - still showed the name of the book but it was lined out - just what I expected.

Then selected the section in the email with the book listing to print (there was other text I didn't want to print)
Pasted that into TextEdit to print that file.
In TextEdit all the line outs disappeared, so did the bold part of the few words in the email that were bold. they just showed as regular text.
Thde font and the font size stayed the same in TextEdit but the lineout and bold parts were gone.

What is rather ironic is that the "Show Font" option in TextEdit brings up pretty much the same selection window as in Apple Mail


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> Just came across another one:



No doubt, Apple will tell you, if they would even give you an answer, is it's due to some privacy and security issues and is meant to be. ;-) smirk;







- Patrick
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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

So down to the fine tuning of the ElCap build. Took me awhile to find the expert mode on the display color calibration. Even so I got a better result by copying my working profile over from Snow Leopard. 

Then it got interesting. No way to change the screen resolution. Not sure what the issue is. It works fine on the same computer in Snow Leopard. Works on the Laptop with an external monitor set-up via the DP port in El Cap. Not working on the Pro via VGA in El Cap. No, the option key does not make a difference. 

So far the 1200x1600 display resolution works just fine, but it's yet another irritant.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> So down to the fine tuning of the ElCap build. … … but it's yet another irritant.



Gheese… it seems to me that you have been working on this El Cap'n OS X update for some months now. I wonder if you will ever get all the various quirts sources sorted out. 

I just found too many annoying things or others that no longer worked so basically just went back to using Mavericks as my daily used OS X Version.

Unfortunately, some things are starting to break it as well. 

I can never understand why so many small things just stop working with an OS X upgrade, and why they can't be kept in the upgrade just keeps improving and getting better. 

Unfortunately, that just does not seem to happen for some strange reason lately and seems to have gotten worse since Snow Leopard.

And yikes, don't even think of even attempting a small legitimate software change to anything when using Mohave!!! :-(




- Patrick
======


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I wonder if it makes sense to go back a step or two.

The only reason I have upgraded all Macs in the family to ElCap is because some Webinar software we all use was no longer supported on Snow Leopard.
Well and for one, SnowLeopard wouldn't run on the newer Mini he bought.

Photo is another app that people hate coming from iphoto
Which was the last OS X release that still had iphoto instead of Photo?


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> “Photos History:
> In June 2014, Apple announced its plan to discontinue the applications iPhoto and Aperture, to be replaced by a new application, Photos, at some point in 2015.[1][2] Photos is included with OS X Yosemite 10.10.3, released as a free update to users on April 8, 2015.”


Yosemite was released to consumers on October 16, 2014.



> On April 8, 2015, Apple released OS X Yosemite 10.10.3, which includes the new Photos app. iPhoto and Aperture were discontinued and removed from the Mac App Store.


Of course, some users kept using iPhoto even if and when they updated their OS X.



> With *OS X El Capitan, only the latest version of iPhoto still operates*, and iPhoto has been removed from the Mac App Store, so customers who upgraded to El Capitan but did not have the latest iPhoto were locked out of iPhoto without warning, pushing them to use Photos.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Photos

Progress they call it, and with the "New and Improved" Photos.app. Yeah, right. 



- Patrick
======


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

pm-r said:


> Yosemite was released to consumers on October 16, 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting I can somehow run iphoto on OS 10.11 ?

PS: Ahh... seems you just updated your post.
Now I need to look up what the latest issue of iphoto is and if I have that on a back up.
Latest version is 9.6.1


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

iPhoto versions: and Apple's odd naming and version confusion…
https://www.fatcatsoftware.com/iplm/Help/a note about iphoto version numbers.html

And maybe:
_*How to Use iPhoto Instead of Mac Photos App in OS X*_
How to Use iPhoto Instead of Mac Photos App in OS X

Some how I doubt that even the old hacks (see osxdaily.com URL above) would work with the latest macOS versions.




- Patrick
======


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

And I doubt that these suggestions still work, but they also offer an alternative suggestion — just switch to using Photos.app and learn about and use some of its newer features.

iPhoto Doesn’t Work on macOS Sierra 10.12, Howto Fix?
https://www.tenorshare.com/iphone-fix/iphoto-does-not-work-on-mac-os-sierra-how-to-fix.html

Or just stay with or keep what does work for the user I guess, even if just to use occasionally by booting from an older OS X partition.





- Patrick
======


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I was a bit hesitant because there are suggestions on the net that even the latest version of iphoto will only work up to 10.11

But this says it was tested and working up to at least 10.13 so I might just try that since the 13-inch MacBook pro where this is mostly used will probably not make it past 10.13 anyway
https://www.easymacsupport.com/blog/older-iphoto-v961-sierra-compatible


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

pm-r said:


> Gheese… it seems to me that you have been working on this El Cap'n OS X update for some months now. I wonder if you will ever get all the various quirts sources sorted out.
> 
> - Patrick
> ======


Got the computer 3 weeks ago today. Did not really start on the build for nearly a week. For the most part I still use Snow Leopard wherever possible, which means ElCap for about 30-40% of my internet activity. Still I like to have it at a point where I have a good disk image and if the need to nuke and pave arises, I can do a full restore in about 10 minutes. Various preferences and settings already picture perfect. 

After that I can pretty much ignore things until another minor tragedy forces my hand maybe 6 more years down the road.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

pm-r said:


> I can never understand why so many small things just stop working with an OS X upgrade, and why they can't be kept in the upgrade just keeps improving and getting better.
> 
> Unfortunately, that just does not seem to happen for some strange reason lately and seems to have gotten worse since Snow Leopard.
> 
> ...


Yep Anything later than ElCap holds zero attraction for me. Another pet peeve is labels. I am sure this predates ElCap. In Snow Leopard a labeled file has a colored bar stretching clear across the window. It literally jumps out at you. In El Cap labels have been rebranded as tags and feature dots so tiny as to make them almost useless for quickly spotting favourite files. 

A change certainly. But more of a giant step backwards than an improvement.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> A change certainly. But more of a giant step backwards than an improvement.



+1, and I definitely tend to agree, and we seem to have had more than our fair share of negative steps and dropped features rather than positive user improvements.



- Patrick
======


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

eMacMan said:


> In Snow Leopard a labeled file has a colored bar stretching clear across the window. It literally jumps out at you. In El Cap labels have been rebranded as tags and feature dots so tiny as to make them almost useless for quickly spotting favourite files.


Perhaps my top peeve in macOS evolution. The modification of labels -> tags in the Finder interface is pretty terrible now, since in most instances the 'tag' column isn't active by default (or his hidden off to the right, off-screen in a scrolling icon view). "Proper" label view's colour highlight that included the filename was much more functional, IMHO.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> Perhaps my top peeve in macOS evolution. The modification of labels -> tags in the Finder interface is pretty terrible now, . … … "Proper" label view's color highlight that included the filename was much more functional, IMHO.



And it seems that it might keep getting worse unless some utilities can be used to reverse the trend.

As mentioned here:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8074706
One could try using *XtraFinder* or *TotalFinder* and get something close to useable:
https://www.trankynam.com/xtrafinder/
and/or
https://totalfinder.binaryage.com/colored-labels

At least some of the demo shots look much better than the stupid color dot Apple calls a label. 

PS: But I also mainly use Mavericks so as to bypass the System Integrity Protection (SIP) that started with El Capitan and can still modify some file and folder colors but it's a bit of a PITA to do without using some utility.





- Patrick
======


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Yes those micro dots are a disaster, absolutely useless. 

Partially solved the SIP issue by disabling it entirely. Still get the dialog box asking if you want to open this or that app. Way too irritating. At least you can still subdue it in El Cap.

Thought I had posted this here, not so, so I copied it over. 


> Interesting and not sure it is El Cap or something earlier.
> 
> The mouse scroll wheel direction in Snow Leopard is the exact opposite of what it is in El Cap. SL has no way to change it. The El Cap mouse pref panel says it is set to the natural scroll direction. Unchecking that box has the mouse scrolling the same in ElCap as it does in SL.
> 
> Both mice are simple USB Logitech M100s.


Anyways since I have been bouncing back and forth between the two, that explains why I was always seemingly trying to scroll in the wrong direction. Settings are now un-naturally altered in El Cap.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> Thought I had posted this here, not so, so I copied it over.



You actually posted it in a different thread:
https://www.ehmac.ca/anything-mac/153194-el-cap-combo-update-2.html#post2669710

Easy to get lost and confused. ;-)




- Patrick
======


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I remember having the labels discussion way back in the days of Jaguar. The fan boys at our local MUG could not understand why I kept using OS 9.2, with Jaguar out and finally working the way it should. I said point blank I would not be using OS X until they incorporated the labels feature. Thankfully the issue seemingly was resolved with Panther, at least until the Apple Developers decided there had to be a worse way to do it and incorporated it into the system.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> Interesting and not sure it is El Cap or something earlier.
> 
> The mouse scroll wheel direction in Snow Leopard is the exact opposite of what it is in El Cap. SL has no way to change it. The El Cap mouse pref panel says it is set to the natural scroll direction. Unchecking that box has the mouse scrolling the same in ElCap as it does in SL.
> Anyways since I have been bouncing back and forth between the two, that explains why I was always seemingly trying to scroll in the wrong direction. Settings are now un-naturally altered in El Cap.


I don't really understand the problem.

Scrolling (using the scroll wheel) like in SL has been the norm for computers for a ****'s age.
Changing it made zero sense to me.
Seems as if Apple was trying to emulate the way one scrolls with their finger on a smartphone, but from a user point of view that makes no sense to me.
Fortunately Apple has the option on ElCap to scroll the same way as on SL.
Also makes sense to me that SL has no way to change scrolling - why would it?
Scrolling was just fine the way it was.

In general I get the feeling some software changes are being made so the software developers look (and are) busy to keep their jobs.
Like the labels > tags change. Did that bring any benefits?
To me is just less functional and less useful than before.

Even the "Save As ...." - when Apple brought it back they brought it back in an annoying form - trying to save face I suppose.
I doubt many of these screw-ups would have happened if Steve Jobs was still around.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> I said point blank I would not be using OS X until they incorporated the labels feature. Thankfully the issue seemingly was resolved with Panther, at least until the Apple Developers decided there had to be a worse way to do it and incorporated it into the system.



Isn't it amazing how the Apple software developers can seemingly screwup or drop so many good features so well and so consistently and then pride themselves with stupid stuff like Cheshire cat type icons and buttons that disappear when half read or hidden away where it takes three or four clicks to access when there used to be maybe just one click needed.

I really wonder sometimes if anyone in charge actually reads or pays any attention to the classic and basic _*Apple GUI Interface Manual*_ rules anymore???





- Patrick
======


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## polywog (Aug 9, 2007)

pm-r said:


> Isn't it amazing how the Apple software developers can seemingly screwup or drop so many good features so well and so consistently and then pride themselves with stupid stuff like Cheshire cat type icons and buttons that disappear when half read or hidden away where it takes three or four clicks to access when there used to be maybe just one click needed.
> 
> I really wonder sometimes if anyone in charge actually reads or pays any attention to the classic and basic _*Apple GUI Interface Manual*_ rules anymore???
> 
> ...


I highly doubt it has anything to do with developers in any way. Someone somewhere is demanding these changes. Probably the same guy making laptops so thin that there are no user serviceable parts.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

So one actual improvement of El Cap over Snow Leopard. No longer can you accidentally remove items from the dock. Somewhere between Lion and ElCap Apple finally got rid of the poofed dock icons and for that they do deserve a bit of credit but why did it take that long? That flaw existed beginning with OS x 10.0.0


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

polywog said:


> I highly doubt it has anything to do with developers in any way. Someone somewhere is demanding these changes. Probably _*the same guy making laptops so thin*_ that there are no user serviceable parts.




+1!!! You took the words or at least the description right out of my mouth, and whoever made him the Head of Apple Software Development was a complete _*incompetent idiot*_!!!

Actually, it seems he's back with just the title of "Chief Design Officer". Not sure when that happened or if it's actually current.





- Patrick
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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> So one actual improvement of El Cap over Snow Leopard. No longer can you accidentally remove items from the dock. Somewhere between Lion and ElCap Apple finally got rid of the poofed dock icons and for that they do deserve a bit of credit but why did it take that long? That flaw existed beginning with OS x 10.0.0


I don't understand that either.
You can still remove items from the dock by just dragging the icon from the dock to the desktop.
You just don't get that nice little "poof" icon. All you get is a blah message of "Remove"
Not sure how you ever did that accidentally before.

This also shows the inconsistency in the GUI.
If you type in the wrong user/password info say to authenticate something - you don't get a message telling you that, instead the window sort of shakes like saying "no, that's not right"
The "poof" when the dock icon evaporates fit right into that concept, the simple "Remove" message does not.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

In El Cap, the only way I can remove something from the dock is to right or control click on it then select remove from dock from the option sub-menu. Rather windowsesque, but in SL at least once I month something goes poof then I spend a couple of minutes trying to figure out which icon I accidentally booted from the dock.

So the El Cap method works for me.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

In ElCap you should also be able to grab the application icon and drag it to the desktop
You will then see the "Remove" come up and if you let go of the mouse button the app will be removed - or you can just slide the icon back to the dock if you picked the wrong one.

Yeah - on SL the add would disappear as soon as it was moved to the desktop, no chance to recover.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

krs said:


> In ElCap you should also be able to grab the application icon and drag it to the desktop
> You will then see the "Remove" come up and if you let go of the mouse button the app will be removed - or you can just slide the icon back to the dock if you picked the wrong one.
> 
> Yeah - on SL the add would disappear as soon as it was moved to the desktop, no chance to recover.


You're right but you have to drag it quite distance away from the dock. Dragging it just past the edge does nothing. Wish I had been aware of that shortcut while I was doing the build.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> In El Cap, the only way I can remove something from the dock is to right or control click on it then select remove from dock from the option sub-menu.



+1. As krs says, click and drag to the Desktop works for me with El Cap'n. But there is a small delay needed for it to work properly.




- Patrick
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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Just a couple of tests so far but wonder of wonders, ImageCapture in ElCap not only works well with the Epson 2450 scanner, but does a much better job of scanning my old 4x5 negs than any of my previous old Snow Leopard approaches. I miss being able to use Twain drivers but overall am very pleased. I was really worried in that area as large format neg scanning had been hit and miss since I had to leave Tiger behind.

Not really an irritant, but Apple does deserve credit for finally getting one right.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

pm-r said:


> And it seems that it might keep getting worse unless some utilities can be used to reverse the trend.
> 
> As mentioned here:
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8074706
> ...



Am trying the XtraFinder at the moment, in my sandbox version of El Cap. Requires installing a file into the /System/Library/ScriptingAdditions folder. This was locked so tight that even using sudo in Terminal I was unable to do it. Finally booted into my main build, did a get info on the sandbox version and set it to ignore permissions. Was able to copy that way. Rebooted into the sandbox and so far it seems to work just fine.

Will create and test a disk image of the main build to this point, before installing onto that Volume.

Did not try the TotalFinder as it was a 12 day trial. Sometimes those trials come with a self shutdown poison pill that can wreak more than a little havoc, especially given that it alters finder behaviour.

NOTE: The labels show only as dots in the save and open dialog boxes.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> Am trying the XtraFinder at the moment,…
> NOTE: The labels show only as dots in the save and open dialog boxes.



Bummer. 
I forgot that I actually had XtraFinder installed in my Mavericks that I had forgotten about and I'll have to go back and check out its color label feature as it didn't seem to show what I was expecting.


Maybe have a look at some of the other possibilities I just searched for:
https://www.macupdate.com/find/mac/color label

I might take a look a little bit later.


EDIT:
BTW: *TotalFinder* looks to be much more promising and I don't see any sign of "entrapment" and there's install and uninstall documentation readily available that seems pretty straightforward:
https://totalfinder.binaryage.com/installation

I'll probably try the 1.9.3 Version four Mavericks later in the day that he has available along with all the other released versions:
https://totalfinder.binaryage.com/compatibility





- Patrick
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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

So created and tested a SuperDuper disk image of the ElCap build to date. Now embarking on the frustrating/scary part. Trimming the font bloat. ElCap has about 214 fonts instatlled. I was able to remove 14 of them via font book. Well over half of the remaining ones are foreign language. A handful won't let me tamper with them at all, the remainder tell me they are located in the System folder and require authorization to remove. 

Is there a list of what fonts have to remain and which can be safely removed? Or is it strictly trial and error?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Worth noting. Did try to install the TotalFinder trial on my El Cap Sand box. Install failed as I needed to disable SIP via terminal from the recovery partition, but the recovery partition is tied to the main El Cap volume not my sand box version. No other viable option.

That's not where it gets weird. Every time I log into the partition I get a dialog telling me that the install failed and then I see that it has subtracted one more day from the trial period. I am now at day 5 even though I tried to install it yesterday afternoon.

Like I said I usually reject those trial period software out of hand and this is a perfect illustration as to why. Will be re-installing the sandbox next time I boot into El Cap.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

@*eMacMan*


> Is there a list of what fonts have to remain and which can be safely removed? Or is it strictly trial and error?



I thought Font Book.app had a list or threw up a flag for the needed/compulsory System fonts.
But I'm sure there's a list provided by Apple and probably others that a Google search should find. 



> but the recovery partition is tied to the main El Cap volume not my sand box version. No other viable option.


I don't really understand what you mean here. Sorry. 





- Patrick
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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I have three ElCap Volumes on that HD as I test and experiment. The El Cap Recovery partition presumably will act only the main version. I do my experimenting in one of the other 2 and the only way to completely disable SIP is via Terminal booted into the recovery app. Could not find a way in the Recovery Terminal to change directory to one of the other volumes.

Had the developer simply allowed me to choose my destination Volume, I would have been able to boot into a different Volume and toggle off permissions while running the installer.

XtraFinder worked because he gave me that option and also the possibility of a manual install.

As I say that poison pill trial thing is a deal killer anyways. Especially since it seems to count every boot as a day and kicks in before the app is installed.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

> I have three ElCap Volumes on that HD as I test and experiment.



OK, but I have three different bootable OS X Version partitions, Snow Leopard, Mavericks and Sierra, the letter of which I hardly ever use and Mavericks is my main OS these days and I have no such problems, but then again it's not laden down and restricted with all the OXS X SIP B.S.





- Patrick
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## Gillette62 (Nov 25, 2018)

Thanks for the info-thread guys!
Very helpful really!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

And the hits keep on rolling.


Went to eject a disk image this morning. All apps were closed yet it old me it could not be ejected as it was in use by one of my apps. Had to log out to unmount it. Should have thought to try the command line. Next time I guess.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

eMacMan said:


> And the hits keep on rolling.
> 
> 
> Went to eject a disk image this morning. All apps were closed yet it old me it could not be ejected as it was in use by one of my apps. Had to log out to unmount it. Should have thought to try the command line. Next time I guess.




That usually happens when the opened .dmg image is still open and existing, as the Finder is actually using them.

Another reason why I choose to have Downloads saved to my desktop where I can see what's happening or if one is left opened and deal with them better. 

Or at least I can when my desktop isn't cluttered with a whole surplus bunch of icons. 




- Patrick
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