# Apple TV



## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

I just ordered my second 40gb refurb

only 209$!

great little things!

cant wait for the update to release!

2 weeks is up on tuesday, so hopefully very soon!

post here if you see it before i do!

C


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

I just ordered one too!! I hope video rentals comes to Canada soon!?


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> I just ordered one too!! I hope video rentals comes to Canada soon!?


setup a US itunes account its easy....

jut pick up a US itunes gift card, use a new email address etc and rentals are yours

i am little surprised that it is not bound to an IP in some way, but who cares it works!


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

cchaynes said:


> setup a US itunes account its easy....
> 
> jut pick up a US itunes gift card, use a new email address etc and rentals are yours
> 
> i am little surprised that it is not bound to an IP in some way, but who cares it works!


I'm also surprised it's not bound to an IP in some way!? I have my own domain so I can just create a new email address ([email protected]) for the additional email, but with a US iTunes gift card, don't you have to register an account with a valid US address?


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

Buy a US iTunes gift card off eBay and click on redeem card in iTunes to redeem it.
Setup a new account through the redeem option.
This allows you to avoid specifying a credit card (since you're using a gift card).
You can use any US address you like.
Use a new email to associate with the new iTunes account.
You can recharge the account by buying US iTunes gift cards at any time.


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

I'm hoping the new Apple TV update is available soon.
It would also be nice to have FrontRow updated to support rentals.


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> I'm also surprised it's not bound to an IP in some way!? I have my own domain so I can just create a new email address ([email protected]) for the additional email, but with a US iTunes gift card, don't you have to register an account with a valid US address?



well i have guessed that their model differs form say MSFT for the 360 in that people dont tend to travel with a 360, but an american traveling in canada (or elsewhere) would expect to be able to rent a vid in itunes while in a hotel etc...


either ay it is good for us and not likely to change....

on a side note wireless N is a wonderful thing!


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

cchaynes said:


> well i have guessed that their model differs form say MSFT for the 360 in that people dont tend to travel with a 360, but an american traveling in canada (or elsewhere) would expect to be able to rent a vid in itunes while in a hotel etc...
> 
> 
> either ay it is good for us and not likely to change....
> ...


I think I may need to upgrade my router to wireless N (have b/g at the moment), or finally finish hooking up the lengths of network cables I had run through the walls so the Apple TV can plug in directly on the network...


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

RISCHead said:


> Buy a US iTunes gift card off eBay and click on redeem card in iTunes to redeem it.
> Setup a new account through the redeem option.
> This allows you to avoid specifying a credit card (since you're using a gift card).
> You can use any US address you like.
> ...


It really is that easy (just bought a $15 US gift card to try it!)... I didn't realise that redeeming a gift card by-passed the whole credit card thing... I've always just had my card registered with iTunes!?


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

If you feel like "tinkering" with an Apple TV, this site offers some handy links.


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> I think I may need to upgrade my router to wireless N (have b/g at the moment), or finally finish hooking up the lengths of network cables I had run through the walls so the Apple TV can plug in directly on the network...


it really is worth it!

wireless N is faster than wired though and for apple tv, that is a must

i am just buying 40gb apple tvs and making the whole this a client/server model with itunes from my imac with loads of storage...

i may order a time capsule and sell my airport extreme...


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

cchaynes said:


> it really is worth it!
> 
> wireless N is faster than wired though and for apple tv, that is a must
> 
> ...


I'm looking at Time Capsule as a solution as well... what I want to know is if you will be able to access Time Capsule as an external hard drive, and as such I could host my whole music collection on there and play it off of there on my MacBook wherever I am around the house...


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

G-Mo said:


> It really is that easy (just bought a $15 US gift card to try it!)... I didn't realise that redeeming a gift card by-passed the whole credit card thing... I've always just had my card registered with iTunes!?


Welcome to iTunes 
I'm on a wireless-g network at home and don't notice any issues streaming to my Apple TV.
I expect to use this for a while unless the need for wireless-n becomes critical.


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

thats good!

N might become needed for HD, or you will just take longer to buffer..


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## Rukus (Aug 10, 2007)

I just bought the 40gb refurb as well  This is my first purchase from Apple directly. I'm curious to see how long it takes to get here to Edmonton....


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

it will be fast
never take express shipping its more but takes the same time


i ordered yesterday (sunday) so arguably this morning, it shipped by fedex today
and is sched to arrive wednesday, pretty typical for all of my apple orders

enjoy it, its a great little gadget, gives you a new relationship to photos and music!

and thats before the new video stuff!


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## krug1313 (Apr 27, 2007)

So with Apple TV you can watch videos full screen on your tv that were purchased from Itunes? I want the Rob and Big seasons but it sucks I have to watch them on my laptop or touch so for about $100 more than I would pay for the seasons I could own Apple TV.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Yes you can watch full screen. Check out Apple's spec do be sure you have the right gear on your end before making the jump. You will need the right kind of tv (component or HDMI video) and a network capable of delivering content to the unit. You will need an US iTunes account to pick up content.

If any of these is missing, there is no point in going this route.


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## krug1313 (Apr 27, 2007)

I have the right specs on my end. So the shows that are available to us right now on itunes will work correct?


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Anything on iTunes should be accessible from the AppleTV. Rentals only from the US store though. Whatever TV is up in Canada should work for you.


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

tomorrow is 2 weeks, does apple tend to keep to projected timelines (ones they choose to announce)?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Two other great things about TV: YouTube and podcasts. Both are free and fun for the whole family on a big screen.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Yes, I am hoping the update allows people to browse podcasts in the itunes store from the AppleTV...

Say good bye to commercial TV in our house


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

cchaynes said:


> ... 40gb refurb only 209$!


I was looking out for a second airport express, but this thread has convinced me that it's worth spending the extra $120 for an Apple TV.

Any idea what the update will do?


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

TheBat said:


> I was looking out for a second airport express, but this thread has convinced me that it's worth spending the extra $120 for an Apple TV.
> 
> Any idea what the update will do?


apple tv is way worth the $, and i think before the update..

after the update, you will be able to manage content from the apple tv directly, search for music, tv, movies, movie rentals, podcasts, download them and pay for them.

while it will be a while before we see all of this functionality in the itunes canada store, once complete, it will be quite an impressive "on demand" solution.

I would order a refurb before they are gone, my first "refurb" was mint, anf likely not really ever used at all.

cant wait for the update!

oh ya, and Flikr, and .mac photo browsing is being added too!


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## krug1313 (Apr 27, 2007)

Can you record tv? Or will this likely be available in the future?


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

no recording. But you can use a recorder (ElGato, etc.) attached to a networked mac to record tv and feed it to the AppleTV.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I record our favorites shows with the Elgato EyeTVHybrid (digital and analog) all the time and then use the Zap2It listings to cut and paste descriptions into the eyeTV window like having our own little TiVo. It broadcasts wirelessly from the iMac o the AppleTV. Haven't needed to use the VCR in months, and the ability to find your program is as simple as using an iPod. Plus the TV can be used as a portable projection device if you take it with you.


Frank


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

Think of the Apple TV as an iPod-like companion device for your TV.
Not very exciting I grant you - I managed for a long time simply with a dock and and a AV cable to my TV along with my iPod - why invest in another device?

Anyway, with the move to HD and the announcement for movie rentals, it is now much more interesting - fundamentally, for me, its a device for playing DRM content.

It is interesting to note all the uses others have derived from it - I simply note that almost everything else is achievable (for me) with my PS3 - I wanted a good BluRay player and the PS3 was an excellent choice. It also acts a uPnP media receiver and is a certified DiVX player, so I can stream all kinds of content to it from my Mac.
Admittedly today it seems to suffer from dropped connectivity while streaming, but there are workarounds for now that make it somewhat tolerable.

Bottom line, its still an expensive toy - cutting $20 off the refurb price doesn't really make it a super attractive must have.

But you can see the shape of things to come 

Will it be the one set-top box for your TV that goes where no set-top box has gone before? No.
Will it let you be part of the iTunes statistic and have fun while you're doing it? Abso-effing-lutely.


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## harpoon (Sep 7, 2006)

if this sucker does 5.1 Dolby surround, and plays VIDEO_TS files like Front Row does in Leopard, I'm all over this like a hungry fat kid on a Smartie. All I'll need is to rip my DVDs to a drive and wire it up then.

Gonna wait for the update to see what happens, will get a Mini if it's a no-go.


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

It does Dolby 5.1 pass-through whatever that means.
Doesn't play VIDEO_TS files today - no way to present VIDEO_TS to iTunes.
Unlikely that the s/w update will change that.

You can of course hack the AppleTV to do what you want - it essentially runs a stripped down version of OS X.
Alternately, you can rip to mp4 - in fact, Handbrake has a rip preset for AppleTV.
I realize this may not be ideal, but will overall save you space. You can rip all the extras you want as well.

There doesn't seem to be a great way to organize movies in iTunes - perhaps this will change - FrontRow will deal with folders, so at least tolerable on that front.


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

or dump your video ts folders into visual hub rip em into H.264 and automatically dump them into itunes (thus into ATV)


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

no update for ATV today as yet....


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## harpoon (Sep 7, 2006)

The audio output on the Apple TV confuses me. Here's an interesting link:
Ten Myths of the Apple TV: 5.1 Audio

...but I think I'll wait until the software update and what the consensus is on audio before I buy.

As for h.264 vs VIDEO_TS, I'd love to keep the DVDs in original quality (maybe I'm anal, I work in video for a living). I'd love to compare a mini to an Apple TV on my plasma to see which is superior, especially if I have to mess about with overscan/underscan and potentially lose a bit of sharpness etc.


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

cchaynes said:


> no update for ATV today as yet....


I expect it to be lumped with 10.5.2 - that'll probably delay it a bit, given the amount of code going into that update and the testing required.

I'm hoping this week, but I haven't seen a seed on the developer site either.


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

harpoon said:


> The audio output on the Apple TV confuses me. Here's an interesting link:
> Ten Myths of the Apple TV: 5.1 Audio
> 
> ...but I think I'll wait until the software update and what the consensus is on audio before I buy.
> ...


very cool article.
We can discuss VIDEO_TS vs H.264 - I'm not an expert in this space at all, but I don't see why you have to compromise quality to go to H.264.
Its just an encoding format.
You choose the sampling rate, compression factors etc. so you can easily retain DVD quality and end up with a smaller size (MPEG-4 vs MPEG-2) that is
supported by iTunes.

I would love to understand better what the gotchas are with this approach.


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## harpoon (Sep 7, 2006)

RISCHead said:


> very cool article.
> We can discuss VIDEO_TS vs H.264 - I'm not an expert in this space at all, but I don't see why you have to compromise quality to go to H.264.
> Its just an encoding format.
> You choose the sampling rate, compression factors etc. so you can easily retain DVD quality and end up with a smaller size (MPEG-4 vs MPEG-2) that is
> ...


I'm still trying to understand myself!

To me, if something is say, 5-6GB and gets compressed via Handbrake or Visual Hub or whatever down to 2GB, <i>something</i> has to be discarded. I think I need to run some tests to see what happens, or look online to see what the factors are.

Another consideration is playback and upscaling...it depends on your TV set and scaler quality but I'm just wondering how MPEG-4 upscales to say, a 1366x768 TV vs MPEG-2. It should be better but maybe you really see compression with one vs the other?

A third consideration is convenience and price and "good enough" factor. There's a point where the quality is barely any different, even for picky buggers like me!


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

A different compression algorithm that has better compression ratios doesn't mean lesser quality or lost information - lossless compression is generally well understood.
There is general acknowledgement that we can today do much better than MPEG-2 compression (used in DVD encoding). MPEG-4 is the current standard used in BluRay (for HD quality 

So its not the compression algorithm used that is the issue.

That addresses the first point.
If you can go with MPEG-4 and H.264, then iTunes should be able to accept it.
The key word being 'should'  Doesn't mean it'll be playable on your iPod or on your Apple TV.

In fact, I'll try it out tonight with Handbrake and VisualHub to see if there are any significant issues.

There are some standard video tests that I'm sure our AV experts on the forum will be able to point us to to test the optimal encoding quality if we get that far.

I don't know about upscaling on the AppleTV, but if you upscale while encoding to 720p or 1080i, that gives you more control over the upscaling algorithms used.

Price and convenience are indeed factors... not sure where to go on that right now.
The AppleTV is about 1/3rd the price of a Mac mini. 
It is more convenient for syncing photos, music and video rentals.
It is more convenient for HD outputs given HDMI and component video and not having to deal with bleeding.
It's certainly more inconvenient to convert to H.264 if you're a habitual downloader of DivX or XVid content. But it can be hacked  at least today to allow you to install the codecs to play that content directly. Not sure if that would effectively prevent future AppleTV updates from being applied.
If you already have a DVD player and a separate computer, then some of the advantages of a Mac mini are lost. 
If you're truly looking for a single set-top box and don't care about cable encrypted content (ATSC TV is good enough), then you can potentially get there with a Mac mini (no BluRay of course).


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

I'm going to try a small cognitive visual experiment tonight.

My PS3 upscales DVD content beautifully.
I have some Ken Burns Baseball encoded to mp4 that should be uploadeable to my AppleTV. I also have the original DVDs.
I'm going to stick in the DVD on my PS3 and play the mp4 content through my Apple TV and flip back and forth between the two 
If a significant visual difference is noticeable (very possible, since I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the Handbrake presets), then I may have to try re-encoding one of them for max quality and then try it again.

Anyway, I'll report back on that test - I acknowledge its quite empirical and adhoc, but its a quick and easy start and often 'good enough' is 'good enough'


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## harpoon (Sep 7, 2006)

Thanks for doing the experiment, I'm curious to see the results!

I agree that MPEG-4 > MPEG-2 but transcoding can sometimes do funky things, especially when there's upconversion involved in the end.

I also would want divX/Xvid available if I need it, but it wouldn't be the end of the world to transcode it.

I'm torn between an Apple TV and a Mini, 1/3rd the price is a BIG plus for the ATV...I've heard good things about DVD Player in Leopard and wonder if it's superior to playing back H.264 on the Apple TV....but my TV doesn't have 1:1 pixel mapping so I'll have to mess with the controls...argh! Pros and cons making my head spin.

But your results might make me go one way over the other. If I get an Apple TV I'll likely get an Oppo DVD player as well to play DVDs, burning DivX and playing on there could do the trick as well as solve the con of not having DVD playback on the ATV. My current player's a PVR that only gives me 10-bit. Ugh, need 12-bit minimum.


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

get the apple tv, and buy yourself a ps3 with he diff...

DVD is done, why worry about it, i bought new 58" plasma and DVD looks like hell!

go hidef, get apple tv, simplify your life running a min as a HTPC instead of ATV is like having to build something out of lego to turn on your tv, why bother....

seriously for 200$ there is no debate....

it works, the rental prices for hidef will be good, and a good quality blueray with upscale will do nice for your old collection of records...ehmmmm DVDs...

the video output of the atv is geared towards televisions, the mini will have scaling issues with every different media you throw at it, no fun if you ask me.....


just my 2 cents


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

Agree 100% on the above comments.
PS3 is roughly $400. Apple TV is $200 - mac mini is at least $600.
Better off with the PS3 - heavily subsidized gaming/computing/bluray platform.
Excellent DVD upscaling.
Acts as a uPnP receiver as well.

In terms of my test - turns out I must not have encoded for Apple TV - though I could load it onto iTunes, it wouldn't sync with AppleTV.

Have started converting Kill Bill Vol1 using Handbrake with the default AppleTV settings.
Settings are:









Should have more interesting things to say by tomorrow am...


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

So, finished encoding - created a mp4 file of just over 2 GB.
Happy to report that in the first 30 mins of playing and comparing between my PS3 with the original DVD and Apple TV with the transcoded MP4 H.264 format,
my naked eye is unable to make any significant distinction.
They both appear to be of excellent quality - I have been unable to detect any artifacts so far that are unique to any one source.

We should probably perform some objective tests to properly quantify this... but I don't have the patience for it right now.

I can't detect any difference in upscaling between my PS3 and the Apple TV.
Kill Bill offers excellent opportunities in both crisp black and white of the Bride and some pretty interesting closeups (remember the mosquito bite waking Uma Therman from her coma?)

I'm happy...


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## harpoon (Sep 7, 2006)

thanks for that. I'll seriously consider the ATV, especially if I can just run stuff through VisualHub (which seems to literally convert ANYTHING to Apple TV pretty good, and even improve quality in some cases from my tests). The only factor is the time to re-encode vs downloading and playing right away.

With a Mini it does require a bit of tomfoolery which is a con, but surfing from the couch, and letting Perian/VLC worry about the codec jargon is a nice thought as opposed to Handbraking my life away.

I'm not even remotely interested in a PS3, myself. Blu-Ray does look good and all, but I'm not a big HD gamer (my faves are Guitar Hero, FIFA and other games where graphics don't matter too much). Plus Blu-Ray doesn't have any compelling titles for me, I want to see how the HDCP annoyances pan out as well. I haven't researched, but I thought I heard that you have to have some Blu-Ray players plugged into the 'net to watch content?!? Yeah, right.

I'm not ragging on the PS3 at all, Blu-Ray's still too early for me, that's all.

And yeah mate, I hear you on going discless, I'm so sick of shuffling through booklets and packaging to pick a movie to watch.


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

well, i have never been much of a DVD collector, but i would never give up my cd collection either, that said i spent alot of time ripping it into itunes after xmas....

this has all been related to what i call my new relationship with media....my Apple TV!

I can also attest that VisualHub is the bomb, and quite fast!, it has converted everything i have thrown at it, even .ogm files, whatever they are....

the default ATV encoding set to "go nuts" for quality is great, and they can be automatically added to itunes.

what i need is an automator script that (that works) which will take video, put in any file and encode it with visual hub, dump it into itunes and delete both the original and converted file (if itunes is set to import)

p.s. i dont find that visual hub slows my mac down to much at all, it apparently shifts to take over more power as it becomes available, but gives it back if you start other processes.

As for surfing, i agree, it would be cool if apple would give you virtual control of a safari session running on a connected mac, why not do it? they could even incorporate some funky navi and zoom tools (think i phone) for that matter they could just enable a custom browser right on the apple TV...

let us know what you decide...


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

If you're tech-handy, try ffmpegx. It is free and Visualhub is based on it anyway, and you will save some $$$$. Lotsa options in there to fool around with. I bought a used Hacked ATV and it is a great investment for 200 bones. Looking around ehMac and some other boards, it seems like ATV is gathering much more interest now.


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

well, my second Apple tv is is set up and streaming from iTunes, now just have to wait for the update...

this really is an inexpensive way to hare media around the house!

would sure be nice if there was a simple way to extract recorded TV from my Bell receiver and dump it into itunes...


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

cchaynes said:


> well, my second Apple tv is is set up and streaming from iTunes, now just have to wait for the update...
> 
> this really is an inexpensive way to hare media around the house!
> 
> would sure be nice if there was a simple way to extract recorded TV from my Bell receiver and dump it into itunes...


My Apple TV (ordered Monday afternoon) arrive about 30mins ago (Wednesday morning), and I took standard shipping -- I will be setting it up tonight!!!

Now, Take 2 please!!!?


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> My Apple TV (ordered Monday afternoon) arrive about 30mins ago (Wednesday morning), and I took standard shipping -- I will be setting it up tonight!!!
> 
> Now, Take 2 please!!!?


ENJOY!!


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## cchaynes (Oct 25, 2007)

MacBook Air Now Shipping

looks like "a couple more weeks for the update"

*"within two weeks"*

sorry to break the bad news...


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

blast - not really surprised though. Oh well...


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

mikeinmontreal said:


> If you're tech-handy, try ffmpegx. It is free and Visualhub is based on it anyway, and you will save some $$$$. Lotsa options in there to fool around with. I bought a used Hacked ATV and it is a great investment for 200 bones. Looking around ehMac and some other boards, it seems like ATV is gathering much more interest now.


Mike, do you have a scripting solution for ffmpegx? I haven't had much time to look into command line usage - that's what I would primarily want to batch convert all my divx stuff to H.264.


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

RISC, I just use the application as is and fine tune it for my needs. Used it a lot to convert content for use on a PSP last year, until I discovered that PSP screens weren't great for video. Found it faster than VisualHub, so I have used it since. If you need more info, check out the forum here:

ffmpegX general discussion - VideoHelp.com

I think there are commands you can use; I just never did.


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## harpoon (Sep 7, 2006)

IIRC, MPEG Streamclip (free, a must have on the mac) is also based on ffmpegx as well. 

I'm about 70% leaning towards ATV over a mini now. Cost is a plus. I wonder if I'll want internet access on the TV in time for say, something like Miro, or a streaming web solution.

I'm pretty convinced now that the Mini running FR2 on a DVD won't be of lesser quality than a Handbraked DVD on an Apple TV. 

Other concerns remaining are syncing issues that could happen (I was listening to a podcast today and the dude was ranting about how he can't sync to his ATV half the time) as well as how snappy the interface will feel if I'm scrolling through a big-ass list of movies etc. I'll likely have a terabyte or so of media!

But man, is that $400 savings looking worthwhile.


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