# McCann disappearance (St. Albert / Edson, Alberta)



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_I was sure we had a thread about this when the McCann's disappeared four years ago, but darned if the ehMac search engine can find it..._ 

*Travis Vader charges stayed in McCann murder case*












> The Crown has stayed charges against Travis Vader, who was accused of murdering Lyle and Marie McCann, a couple from St. Albert, Alta., who went missing four years ago and have never been found.





> Crown prosecutor Michelle Doyle refused to make any comment on why the charges were stayed.





> The two-week trial was scheduled to begin in April.
> 
> The McCanns were last seen on July 3, 2010, on the first day of a road trip to British Columbia. Their burned out motorhome was found two days later in the bush near Edson, Alta.


(CBC)

*Missing couple: Timeline of the McCann case*


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Why are you posting this here, CM? I don't understand which part of the story you are trying to alert people to.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

This is but one more example of a bungled investigation by the RCMP. Their incompetence is legend in the region as part of the investigative detachments are the very same as those who bungled the case of the four mounties killed in Mayerthorpe, just down the road from Gainford, near Entwistle where the couple were last seen.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

The McCanns disappearance and subsequent murders pose some interesting questions indeed.

It is not hard to put together what very likely happened, but the question remains, why?

They pulled their rig off the highway in the small village of Gainford, near Entwistle onto an access road to a local antique store that we ourselves have stopped at many times.

They were likely looking for one particular item, not found and returned to the unlocked motor home in a very short period of time.

Meanwhile a person or persons had noticed them enter the shop and decided to enter the RV to steal whatever they might find. The McCanns likely returned so quickly it blocked their escape through the RV’s only door, so he/they hid in the rear bedroom to avoid detection.

Once back on the highway, the person(s) came out of hiding and with a weapon of some sort (Knife?) took control of the driver and ordered him to turn off the main highway to a remote forestry campground few but area residents would even know existed.

Once there it would have been simple to contain the McCanns while a thorough search of the RV was conducted. It would be at that point, he/they found something of such value aboard that it was worth risking murder to obtain.

The couple was then likely marched into the forest, some distance from the campground and disposed of and bodies hidden.

Upon return to the campground, he/they unhooked the tow vehicle from the motor home (a Hyundai SUV), set the RV ablaze and drove off, later ditching the SUV in a spot so well hidden and untravelled it took RCMP a considerable length of time to find it. This again points to intimate knowledge of the terrain by the perpetrator(s).

But what did they find that drove them to murder? And why has nothing ever been released by the RCMP or the family about anything of large value missing? Would that not help the public to alert police if anyone they knew suddenly had such an item or items?

At least that is how I see it unfolding and the cops are stymied without enough evidence to bring anyone to trial.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Why are you posting this here, CM? I don't understand which part of the story you are trying to alert people to.


You're making it an unpleasant habit of questioning every goddamn thing I do in here, MF. I don't like it.

As I noted above, I believe that this story was discussed here in ehMac 4 years ago. It's a fairly notorious case. In particular, it may be of interest (and I see that it is) to SINC, who hails from that part of Alberta. I thought that people who may remember the case might also be interested in the latest developments - i.e., that the accused murderer has had charges against him stayed.

Now - I hope you enjoyed that explanation, because it's the last f-ing time I'm going to justify my posting decisions to the likes of you.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

You're being a really testy and unpleasant brute, CM.

It wasn't clear at all to me what the "hook" of your post was because you didn't personalize it. If I simply link someone to a news story it will leave them scratching their heads as to why I did so. I was simply asking you what you found interesting about your own post--and this is the type of outburst I get?

SINC provided some good context, for example his dismissal of the RCMP's detective work.

You should put me on "block" before you blow an artery.



CubaMark said:


> You're making it an unpleasant habit of questioning every goddamn thing I do in here, MF. I don't like it.
> 
> As I noted above, I believe that this story was discussed here in ehMac 4 years ago. It's a fairly notorious case. In particular, it may be of interest (and I see that it is) to SINC, who hails from that part of Alberta. I thought that people who may remember the case might also be interested in the latest developments - i.e., that the accused murderer has had charges against him stayed.
> 
> Now - I hope you enjoyed that explanation, because it's the last f-ing time I'm going to justify my posting decisions to the likes of you.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Travis Vader found not guilty, will be released from custody*










_Travis Vader, the man once accused in the murders of St. Albert, Alta., couple Lyle and Marie McCann, will be released from custody on Wednesday for the first time in four years.

Vader was found not guilty of all nine unrelated theft, drug and firearm charges that kept him behind bars even after the first-degree murder charges were stayed earlier this year.

The decision means that Vader will be released from custody as soon as the paperwork is completed. He was first arrested in 2010 and has been behind bars since then.

Before the case wrapped up, Vader was sentenced to one day in jail for failing to check in with the RCMP by phone, a breach of the conditions of his probation._

(CBC)


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Wow!

Four years behind bars and then found 'not guilty' on all charges....
Doesn't that mean the province now needs to caugh up big dollars as compensation?

As far as the murder trial was concerned - I thought if no body is found it's impossible to even have a murder trial.
How does one even prove that the MaCanns are actually dead?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_In case anyone is still following this story, five years later...._

*Travis Vader's Fingerprint, DNA Found Inside Missing Seniors' SUV: RCMP*








A beer can, a ruby ring and a cellphone make up the major physical evidence that RCMP believe they have against Travis Vader, accused of killing an elderly couple in July 2010, according to newly released court documents.

* * *​
RCMP believed they found Vader's fingerprint and DNA on a beer can inside the burned-out remains of Lyle and Marie McCann's SUV.

* * *​
The couple's bodies have never been found, and Vader has pleaded not guilty to charges of first-degree murder in their deaths.

In addition to the beer can, court has previously been told that Lyle McCann's hat — with a bullet hole in it — and Marie McCann's blood were found in their burned-out SUV, which was found near Edson, Alta., about two weeks after they had left their home in St. Albert, north of Edmonton, on a trip to B.C.

* * *​
Vader was charged with murder in April 2012. But the charges were stayed in 2014, just a few weeks before the case was set to go before a jury when the Crown said it realized Mounties hadn't disclosed all evidence in the case.

The charges were reactivated in December 2014 and a new trial before a judge alone is to start in March.

However, Vader's lawyer has been arguing in court that the charges should be tossed out over abuse of the judicial process.

A judge is expected to rule on the abuse-of-process claim at the end of the month.​
(HuffPo)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> In case anyone is still following this story, five years later....





CubaMark said:


> *RCMP believed* they found Vader's fingerprint and DNA on a beer can* inside the burned-out remains of Lyle and Marie McCann's SUV.*
> 
> In addition to the beer can, court has previously been told that Lyle McCann's hat — with a bullet hole in it — and Marie McCann's blood *were found in their burned-out SUV,* which was found near Edson, Alta., about two weeks after they had left their home in St. Albert, north of Edmonton, on a trip to B.C.


I still follow every single thing that crops up regarding this story as local media cover it in the tiniest of detail anytime that anything is released. In my opinion, this is but one more botched investigation by Alberta RCMP in a case that should have been wrapped up five years back. Certainly if cops have the kind of 'evidence' they claim, it should be an easy conviction. Why then did the crown prosecutor stay the charges against Vader for what she then described as a lack of any credible evidence that would in her opinion result in a conviction. Why was the fingerprint and the DNA not part of the original evidence presented to the crown when charges were first laid? It seems to me that had they had that beer can evidence at that time, a conviction would have been a slam dunk. This is beginning to smell like the stench of the investigation of the Mayorthorpe mounties killing that in my humble opinion was a revenge conviction of two men to satisfy the desire of the RCMP for those deaths.

And last but not least, Huff Post could use some help on the editorial side. Twice in the story you posted they claim the evidence was found 'inside the burned out shell of the McCann's SUV'. In fact, the SUV was never burned. It was found intact a half hour drive away from the campground in which they found the burned out remains of the McCann's motor home. It had been unhooked from the RV before it was set ablaze and used as an escape vehicle by whomever was involved in their disappearance.

And further, why do the RCMP only 'believe' they had found the evidence inside the SUV? They either found it there, or they didn't. Could it have come from the campground where the burned out motor home was found instead? Vader was a resident of the area and by their own admission, RCMP acknowledged that he was very familiar with the area. If it did come from that campground, could Vader have stopped there at some time previous to the McMann's arrival there for a cold beer and tossed the can on the ground when he left? Could it have been left there a month earlier for example?

I'm not suggesting he was not involved, but I am suspicious, based on what the RCMP now say regarding that evidence, there is at least in my mind, a reasonable doubt about the RCMP's facts as to where they found that beer can.

Were the McCanns killed in or near the RV? Is that why it was burned to destroy any evidence? Or were they taken alive in their own SUV to another location and then killed? There are far too many unanswered questions in my mind to make these charges stick.

Here are two pics below, taken of the SUV being taken in for evidence when found in the bush a half hour from the supposed scene of the crime near the RV and the burned out RV at the campground.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Unsolved cases are the saddest kinds of cases for the ones left behind. Was there ever evidence anyone else could have been responsible? Perhaps investigators have been barking up the wrong tree for four years if all they have to show is a possible finger print on a beer can. Where's the bodies end up, for instance? Or were they never found? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

The bodies have never been found which leads me to believe they were taken from the RV alive and transported to another location where they were killed and their remains hidden. If those remains were left exposed, there are plenty of wolves, coyotes and other scavengers who could easily have consumed the bodies and there is little left to be found in spite of many searches conducted by the RCMP and volunteers on numerouse occasions both around the campground and also where the SUV was located.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I failed to mention in my post #10 earlier today that contained the pics of the SUV, motor home and my doubts about the beer can evidence that many public volunteer searches over and above the RCMP searches were instigated by the family of the McCanns. I recall this billboard that was set up along the Yellowhead highway near the access road to the campground was in that location for many months. That is why it may have been wildlife predators and scavengers who were responsible for their remains never having been found.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Trial begins:

Crown begins case against accused murderer | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

SINC said:


> Trial begins:
> 
> Crown begins case against accused murderer | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


GIven the blood and DNA evidence, I'm surprised he's pleading not guilty. Is his lawyer really trying to push the "they're just missing", nothing indicates they're dead angle?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

My suspicion is that there are more than Vader involved and Vader's lawyer is trying to implicate others by proving yet another botched RCMP investigation is at hand and somehow playing that to his client's advantage. Don't forget Peers, AB., where the crime supposedly took place is but a hop, skip and jump from Mayerthorpe, AB., where a botched investigation in the Mayerthorpe shootings sent two innocent men to jail for many years was made by the same detachments of the RCMP.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

SINC said:


> My suspicion is that there are more than Vader involved and Vader's lawyer is trying to implicate others by proving yet another botched RCMP investigation is at hand and somehow playing that to his client's advantage. Don't forget Peers, AB., where the crime supposedly took place is but a hop, skip and jump from Mayerthorpe, AB., where a botched investigation in the Mayerthorpe shootings sent two innocent men to jail for many years was made by the same detachments of the RCMP.


It is sad to see what has become of our national police force. I remember how proud a friend of mine was when he became a Mountie. Were he alive today I am sure he would be railing loudly about the current situation.

One thing I noted when compiling stats about terrorism deaths, is that after 2001 and prior to 2013 there was never a year when all of Canada's police combined killed more than 7 people. Many years that number zero! Since then this number has always been in double digits and twice reached into the 20s. I strongly suspect there has been a fundamental shift in training and part of that shift is towards instilling God Syndrome into our policemen.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Trial continues:

Travis Vader trial reveals dysfunction in the McCann family - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader trial delayed by car trouble | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Lyle McCann's RV was his 'pride and joy,' son says | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

McCann motorhome spotted at Minnow Lake campground July 5 | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Lyle and Marie McCanns' burned motorhome not secured following fire | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Sometimes the reporting gets lost in the minutia. Were the Mounties aware that the McCanns were missing at the time their burned out RV was discovered?

My memory is learning of the disappearance before hearing about the discovery of the RV, but that may only be because a burned out RV would hardly be newsworthy until tied to the missing couple.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Isn't this one more likely investigative screw up by the RCMP? Had the attending officer bothered to check the license plate or VIN number of the burned out motor home and tried to contact the owners, they would have immediately known that they were missing or that something was amiss at the very least.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Travis Vader murder trial hears testimony about stolen pickup truck - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Mounties conducting this investigation are from the same tainted detachments that threw two innocent men in jail in the Mayerthorpe murders and are apparently up to their old tricks of intimidating witnesses with threats to give them the same treatment. The RCMP using such tactics smack of a police state and should be outlawed before more people who were barely involved are the brunt of what has become widely known as 'Mountie Revenge'.



> Vader trial witness recants prior testimony
> 
> A witness who had previously denied buying groceries for Travis Vader, knowing he was on the run, changed his story Thursday morning during Vader’s trial for the murders of St. Albert couple Lyle and Marie McCann.
> 
> ...


More in the St. Albert Gazette.

Vader trial witness recants prior testimony | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

SINC said:


> Mounties conducting this investigation are from the same tainted detachments that threw two innocent men in jail in the Mayerthorpe murders...


My uncle was a Mountie in Atlantic Canada... back in the days before the shine wore off. It's such a tarnished institution today, and such a shame. A Canadian institution that has gone to ruin. Where does the blame lie? Lax moral standards for recruits? Failure in training?

Or... as is more likely the case... we hold a romanticized vision of the red serge, just like folks who go on about how wonderful life was in the "good old days" of the 50s, then 60s...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader trial hears cellphone evidence | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Not sure if people want me to continue with trial details here, but often a look at it from a local angle differs from the national news perspective. At any rate, here are details from this past week.

Vader print on beer can, murder trial told | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

CubaMark, maybe the Mounties were modelling themselves after the Surete du Quebec.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

SINC said:


> Not sure if people want me to continue with trial details here, but often a look at it from a local angle differs from the national news perspective. At any rate, here are details from this past week.
> 
> Vader print on beer can, murder trial told | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


This is pretty much being ignored outside of your area so anything you post is probably news to most of us.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm finding it interesting, SINC.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

emacman said:


> this is pretty much being ignored outside of your area so anything you post is probably news to most of us.


+1


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Text messages from McCann phone included in trial exhibit | Our View | St. Albert Gazette


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

SINC said:


> Text messages from McCann phone included in trial exhibit | Our View | St. Albert Gazette



Having sat on a jury, I can state that it is very possible for the Crown to present too much evidence. The more they try to cover their ass at every twist, the more challenging it becomes for jurors to keep everything straight.

My experience lasted all of three days and the evidence was fairly straight forward. Even so there was some disagreement amongst us as to which witnesses were reliable.

Dragging things out for more than a month is just asking for trouble.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader trial looks at DNA in detail | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader DNA linked to cap found in McCann SUV | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

This is like our own version of "Serial"". It's keeping me coming back Sinc, thanks.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Travis, or *Darth Vader* as he is called by locals, isn't helping himself much by being late so many times.

Travis Vader's bail conditions to be reviewed Friday - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Travis Vader to remain free on bail - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader to remain out on bail | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

SINC said:


> Vader to remain out on bail | Local News | St. Albert Gazette



As wonderful as it would be to catch a killer, you need evidence. Circumstantial evidence won't do the job. How many years has this case been dragging on now? The man may be guilty as sin, but if you can't make a case, you can't make a case. He would be found not guilt beyond a reasonable doubt if the evidence was not rock solid. A few fingerprints and DNA samples in the trailer does not prove anything.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> Sometimes the reporting gets lost in the minutia. Were the Mounties aware that the McCanns were missing at the time their burned out RV was discovered?
> 
> My memory is learning of the disappearance before hearing about the discovery of the RV, but that may only be because a burned out RV would hardly be newsworthy until tied to the missing couple.




It seems to me that their RV was discovered a good deal of time after they were reported missing, if I remember correctly. Evidence reported in the media has been circumstantial at best.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

As I have mentioned before this investigation was done by many of the same members and detachments of the RCMP who bungled the Mayerthorpe massacre that sent two innocent men to the pokey for many long years in a 'Mountie revenge' jailing. One more example of the decline of the RCMP.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Court hears Vader statements, wiretaps | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader maintains innocence in police interviews | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Travis Vader trial: RCMP expert testifies about blood-spatter evidence - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

The botched investigation may end this trial badly.

Vader trial witness an Alberta Mountie with troubled career - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader's lawyer questions investigation | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Beer buddy of Travis Vader testifies under heavy security at murder trial - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Key witness testifies at Vader trial | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Second-row seats at Travis Vader trial offer good view of legal system - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader's texts suggest plan to give false info to police | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader discussed alibi with cell mate | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Crown’s case against Vader draws to a close | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Travis Vader back in jail as police investigate stolen truck, copper wire - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Travis Vader back in custody on multiple charges | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Defence witnesses contradict Crown evidence | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Crown concludes case against Travis Vader | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader bail review postponed | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader verdict coming this summer - Edmonton - CBC News


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Not sure how I missed this, but obviously Vader chose trial by Judge alone. Suspect that means his attorneys are hoping some technical glitches in the collection or presentation of evidence will outweigh the evidence itself. 

Obviously an admitted meth head is unlikely to win a lot of juror sympathy so it may prove to be a wise move.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

My feeling as well.

I'm rather surprised that there even is a chance of conviction if there are no bodies found.

How can one be found guilty "beyond a reasoable doubt" if the crown can't even establish that the McCanns asre in fact dead.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader defence rests its case | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Reading the last Gazette article, it just struck me that the events discussed at the trial happened 6 years ago.

I sure can't remember nitty, gritty details of what happened on a speific day 6 years ago unless it was a majpr "earth-shattering" event - I wouldn't expect most people to be not that much different.
There doesn't seem to be any evidence that links Traver directly to this murder (assuming the McCann's are actually dead) - if "without reasonable doubt" is still the criteria, I don't really see how Travis could be found guilty (even if he is).


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vader defence case casts doubt | Local News | St. Albert Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Travis Vader killed Alberta seniors in roadside robbery, Crown alleges - Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Case against Travis Vader in McCann deaths mere speculation, lawyer says - Edmonton - CBC News

Verdict to come September 15.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Verdict being announced now:

Judge rules today in Travis Vader murder case - Edmonton - CBC News

It appears "reasonable doubt" exists; no first-degree murder.

*Update: Guilty of 2nd-degree murder.*


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Travis Vader convicted of 2nd-degree murder in McCann deaths - Edmonton - CBC News

The appeal has already been announced.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Hmmmm....*

*Legal experts call Vader second-degree murder convictions unconstitutional*

Two legal experts at the University of Alberta say the judge presiding over the Travis Vader murder trial made an egregious mistake that could render the second-degree murder convictions invalid. 

"This is very, very surprising, I think even a shocking mistake, that it would happen in any case, let alone in a case of this kind of profile," said law professor Steven Penney.

* * *​
"It appeared that the judge relied... on a provision of the Criminal Code that was struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada 26 years ago," said Penney, referring to Section 230 of the Criminal Code.

Section 230 allows for a murder verdict if a wrongful death occurs during the commission of another crime, such as robbery. But that section was found unconstitutional in 1990 by the Supreme Court.

The revised definition of murder states the killings must be intended to be murder, which the Crown was unable to prove in the Vader case, the legal experts say.

* * *​
"I'm pretty confident that the ruling can't stand," said Peter Sankoff, who also teaches law at the U of A and specializes in legal issues around the criminal trial process. "When (Thomas) relies on Section 230 to convict, he can't do that. Section 230 doesn't exist."​
(CBC)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yep, this is a long way from over. Why Alberta allows such inexperienced judges to sit on the bench is a mystery. That unconstitutional clause should be known in advance by any competent judge. God help us if the NDP have anything to do with appointing any during their term.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Seems to me that is also a major part of the defense attorneys job. When you're being paid $100s/hour you should be reasonably expected to track down such previous rulings and remind the court of their existence. 

Vader will in the meantime spend several years behind bars while this is properly appealed. 

FWIW Would not the prosecuting attorneys have been the ones that put together the case based on a stricken article? 

Seems that this was not at all common knowledge in the legal community.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

And so it begins as a result of placing an inexperienced judge with no clue on the subject of murder in charge of a murder trial:

Travis Vader's defence team asks judge to declare mistrial - Edmonton - CBC News


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

SINC said:


> And so it begins as a result of placing an inexperienced judge with no clue on the subject of murder in charge of a murder trial:
> 
> Travis Vader's defence team asks judge to declare mistrial - Edmonton - CBC News


I guess this is the classic question: you make mistakes by lack of experience and you gain experience from making mistakes, so how can you avoid one and gain the other?

There have been a number of judge error issues in the news lately..... not sure how to fix this..... maybe actually having licenses and tests for each level of crime?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Judge selection is at fault. As I understand it, this judge was an expert in environmental law. WTF were they thinking when they appointed him to hear the case? And who are they?


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

> "It appeared that the judge relied... on a provision of the Criminal Code that was struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada 26 years ago," said Penney, referring to Section 230 of the Criminal Code.
> 
> Section 230 allows for a murder verdict if a wrongful death occurs during the commission of another crime, such as robbery. But that section was found unconstitutional in 1990 by the Supreme Court.
> 
> The revised definition of murder states the killings must be intended to be murder, which the Crown was unable to prove in the Vader case, the legal experts say.


Hmmmm...............

So what could he have been convicted of?
Manslaughter?

I don't really understand the Supreme Court ruling.
So someone commits a robbery and ends up shooting and killing someone.
I can see why this is not 1st degree murder, ie pre-meditated, but the victim was still killed.
One can't just say - oh that doesn't matter since I didn't intend to kill anyone, I just wanted to rob someone.

This doesn't make much sense either:


> "It appeared that the judge relied … on a provision of the Criminal Code that was struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada 26 years ago," said Penney.
> 
> Section 230 allows for a murder verdict if a wrongful death occurs during the commission of another crime, such as robbery. But that section was found unconstitutional in 1990 by the Supreme Court.
> 
> The revised definition of murder states the killings must be intended to be murder, which the Crown was unable to prove in the Vader case, the legal experts say.


This implies that in 26 years the Criminal Code was never updated to correct this section - what the heck is going on here with the Canadian Criminal Justice System?
I can't really blame the judge if the information in the Criminal Code is wrong.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

krs said:


> I can't really blame the judge if the information in the Criminal Code is wrong.


I do blame the judge. If a judge has zero experience in murder, manslaughter trials he should not have presided over the case. His inability to stay current on a 26 year old change in law shows why he should not be involved in these types of cases. An experienced judge in murder, manslaughter issues would not have made such an error.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

SINC - I agree with you up to a point.

If the judge really had "zero" experience in murder/manslaughter trials, what is he doing on the bench for this trial in the first place - shouldn't that have been an issue on day one?
And especially a trial with that much visibility.

On the other hand - if I read or check something in an official government document, especially something as important as the Criminal Code, I expect it to be up-to-date. Not reflecting a change to the Criminal Code that was made 26 years ago is rather ridiculous.

Maybe there is a Supreme Court clarification at some later date that Section 230 allows for 2nd degree murder but not 1st degree murder - that would make lagical sense.
The comment was:


> The revised definition of murder states the killings must be intended to be murder,


Killings intended (ie planned & deliberate) to be murder is 1st Degree murder.

At this point we don't really know if the judge made an error - that is just the opinion of some legal experts who are not always right (or agree with what a court of law decides)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Breaking news, more to come:

Travis Vader murder charges substituted for manslaughter convictions

Edmonton - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

More now:

Travis Vader murder verdict changed to manslaughter | CTV News


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## Freddie_Biff (Sep 20, 2016)

Strange to convict anyone of murder in the first, second or even third degree without any actual bodies. Circumstantial evidence is not normally sufficient, and all that has been presented so far is circumstantial incident. I'm not saying Vader didn't do it, but the burden of proof is always on the prosecution. 


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Freddie_Biff said:


> Strange to convict anyone of murder in the first, second or even third degree without any actual bodies. Circumstantial evidence is not normally sufficient, and all that has been presented so far is circumstantial incident. I'm not saying Vader didn't do it, but the burden of proof is always on the prosecution.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My thoughts exactly!

I also don't understand how a verdict can just be changed like that.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I predict that this action by a flawed judge may actually result in Vader walking. Not right, but neither is the apparent risk of justice not being served of an innocent man paying a price he should not. A judicial boondoggle that we have not heard the end of in any way, shape or form.


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## Freddie_Biff (Sep 20, 2016)

SINC said:


> I predict that this action by a flawed judge may actually result in Vader walking. Not right, but neither is the apparent risk of justice not being served of an innocent man paying a price he should not. A judicial boondoggle that we have not heard the end of in any way, shape or form.



Agreed. It's quite a poor outcome for a trial that has taken so many years to be presented.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I feared this might happen from the very beginning. 

Vader could walk free if defence argument holds - Edmonton - CBC News


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## Freddie_Biff (Sep 20, 2016)

SINC said:


> I feared this might happen from the very beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> Vader could walk free if defence argument holds - Edmonton - CBC News



This trial has been botched from the get go. With no bodies, no murder weapon and no actual evidence that would convict Vader of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, he probably should walk free. I'm not saying he didn't do it, but the onus is on the prosecution to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. They have not done this. 


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Continuing the comedy that is the Travis Vader case one is left to wonder if the Canadian justice system is even remotely fair. Vader is eleigble for unescorted absenses from jail beginning next month.

McCann family 'shocked' to hear killer soon eligible to apply for unescorted absences - Edmonton - CBC News


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## Freddie_Biff (Sep 20, 2016)

SINC said:


> Continuing the comedy that is the Travis Vader case one is left to wonder if the Canadian justice system is even remotely fair. Vader is eleigble for unescorted absenses from jail beginning next month.
> 
> 
> 
> McCann family 'shocked' to hear killer soon eligible to apply for unescorted absences - Edmonton - CBC News



The hardest thing about this trial is that if Vader is guilty, which he has been found to be despite a deplorable lack of evidence, he will be given tremendous latitude since the trial was botched so badly. Either he is a master criminal or the investigators were in over their heads. Either way, a trial like this needs to be conclusive beyond a reasonable doubt.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Freddie_Biff said:


> The hardest thing about this trial is that if Vader is guilty, which he has been found to be despite a deplorable lack of evidence, he will be given tremendous latitude since the trial was botched so badly. Either he is a master criminal or the investigators were in over their heads. Either way, a trial like this needs to be conclusive beyond a reasonable doubt.


Not only was the trial botched, don't forget so was the investigation by the RCMP.


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## Freddie_Biff (Sep 20, 2016)

SINC said:


> Not only was the trial botched, don't forget so was the investigation by the RCMP.



Yes, it's hard to see Justice in this outcome.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

More on this issue from Global News Edmonton.

Travis Vader eligible for unescorted temporary absences next month: Parole Board | Globalnews.ca


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