# Tens of thousands dead in the Horn of Africa



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Somalia famine has killed tens of thousands*





> Parts of southern Somalia are suffering from famine, a UN official said Wednesday, and tens of thousands of Somalis have already died in the worst hunger emergency in a generation.
> 
> The Horn of Africa is suffering a devastating drought compounded by war, neglect and spiraling prices. Some areas in the region have not had such a low rainfall in 60 years, aid group Oxfam said.
> 
> ...


(More: CBC)

*Where to donate to help fight the famine in Somalia*

*United Nations declares famine in southern Somalia*



> For the United Nations to declare a famine, as it did at a news conference in Nairobi, Kenya, the rate of child malnutrition must be at 30% or higher, daily deaths at two per 10,000 people and people not have access food and other basic necessities.
> 
> According to UNICEF, the U.N. agency that focuses on children, the child malnutrition rate in southern Somalia has doubled in a single month; in some places it has reached 55% and infant deaths have increased to six a day.
> 
> Yet the global response has been dismal. An appeal late last year for $535 million to address the need is still more than $250 million short.


(LA Times)


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I have been so touched by this tragedy that I have been doing the one thing I can do -- donate money. There are various organizations that I support on a yearly basis that aim at helping children and women, and these are the ones to which I have sent my money (e.g., CARE and Save the Children).


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Just made another donation to this Humanitarian Coalition. Thanks for this info, CM.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Just made a donation.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Dr.G., MannyP, Thank you. I have dear friends in the Canadian Somali community, and this is incredibly distressing to all of us.*

*Somalia famine donations 'just trickling in'*



> As humanitarian organizations ramp up relief efforts in the Horn of Africa, Canadian charities say more help is needed — fast. But they add that Canadians aren't opening their wallets to donate to the cause.
> 
> The region is experiencing its worst drought in 60 years. The United Nations says tens of thousands of people have already died in Somalia from causes related to malnutrition and more than 10.7 million people in East Africa have been affected.


(CBC)

*This story is just heartbreaking...
*
*SOMALIA: "Children on the Verge of Death Left Behind to Save Those Who Had a Chance"*



> Tens of thousands of starving Somalis have made their way to the government- held part of Mogadishu in search of food, but many parents have made the anguished decision to leave a child too weak to make the journey behind in hope of saving the others.
> 
> As many from the south abandon their homes and make their way to the city’s capital to seek aid in the government-run part of Mogadishu, stories abound of the weak and the infirm dying on the long journey there. There are even stories of children being left behind because they were too weak to move. These were the "sacrifices" many families had to make in order to save their other children.


(IPS News)


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

My anniversary is next week and I was going to take my wife out to a nice restaurant. I told her I was going to donate the money we would have spent there to the Humanitarian Coalition instead of going out. She was in total agreement with this deal.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I donated as much as I can afford last week.

It would be nice if you could see what your donation can buy (for example: $100 = 20 kg of corn meal etc.).


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> I donated as much as I can afford last week.
> 
> It would be nice if you could see what your donation can buy (for example: $100 = 20 kg of corn meal etc.).


Yes, Adrian, I see your point. I know that certain organizations have a price tag for certain items, such as a goat for $30, mosquito nets for $5, salt tablets for $10, etc. This is what my wife and I do for Christmas. I give her my wish list (e.g., two goats, school supplies, water pump, etc) and she gives me her wish list as well. This way, we exchange a card that tells us what items were purchased. Saves on gift wrapping, which I hate.

I like the idea of the Humanitarian Coalition, since I normally donate to four of their partners NGOs.

Paix, mon ami.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> I donated as much as I can afford last week.
> 
> *It would be nice if you could see what your donation can buy (for example: $100 = 20 kg of corn meal etc.*).


Because $100 doesn't necessarily equal 20 Kg of corn meal... minus all the "administrative" costs to the charity that $100 dollars can equal less than 10 Kg of corn meal and they aren't going to tell you that...

Charities are some of the biggest ripoffs going...

No they are not all created equal but you have to do your homework first to make sure that your money isn't just going to line the pockets of those working for/organizing the charity.

Charities paid $762M to private fundraisers



> Canadian registered charities paid $762 million to third-party fundraisers between 2004 and 2008, all of it deducted from donations and often dwarfing guidelines set out by the Canada Revenue Agency, a CBC investigation has learned.
> 
> In more than 200 cases, charities paid more than half the money they received from donors to external fundraisers, according to documents obtained from the CRA, which regulates Canadian charities...


Then there are the moneys paid to the workers and management of the charity itself... one must be very careful and selective indeed.


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## Digital_Gary (Sep 18, 2003)

The organization I donate to in Uganda says a general rule of thumb there is $30.00 CDN feeds a child for 1 month. A little goes a long way!


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

I didn't, nor will I donate anything.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

imnothng said:


> I didn't, nor will I donate anything.


Thanks for your contribution, nonetheless. It's beautiful that fine people such as yourself make such a tireless effort at being a giant cack in the face of human suffering.

It really warms the heart.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> Thanks for your contribution, nonetheless. It's beautiful that fine people such as yourself make such a tireless effort at being a giant cack in the face of human suffering.
> 
> It really warms the heart.


I thought imnothing's post came across as harsh as well... but before we judge his post completely, I think we need to know why he would make such a post....

It could be for the very reasons I alluded to earlier that charities are some of the biggest rip offs out there and maybe he had a previous bad experience....

Just trying to extend the benefit of the doubt... and then again that comes across as condescending.. Maybe imnothing has another completely different but equally defensible reason for his statement... I don't know, but I think it bears hearing the reasons for a statement that on the face of it seems rather... well... harsh.

Just another thought... maybe he would rather spend his available charity money closer to home... a completely valid approach if that is the reason.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

screature said:


> I thought imnothing's post came across as harsh as well... but before we judge his post completely, I think we need to know why he would make such a post....
> 
> It could be for the very reasons I alluded to earlier that charities are some of the biggest rip offs out there and maybe he had a previous bad experience....
> 
> ...


Honestly, I really don't care either way. Why bother?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> Thanks for your contribution, nonetheless. It's beautiful that fine people such as yourself make such a tireless effort at being a giant cack in the face of human suffering.
> 
> It really warms the heart.


BTW... Hey why no avatar? You're a GD... got something new in the works?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> Honestly, I really don't care either way. Why bother?


Well then why comment at all...? I thought we were an online community trying to get to know one another and share info along the way.... Just my take I guess.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Charities are some of the biggest ripoffs going..." Screature, true, some charities do rip off the public. This is why I donate only to Category A charities, which means no more than 20% of every dollar raised may go for administration, advertising, etc. It takes a bit of digging, but it is worth the search.

Paix, mon ami.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> "Charities are some of the biggest ripoffs going..." Screature, true, some charities do rip off the public. This is why I donate only to Category A charities, which means no more than 20% of every dollar raised may go for administration, advertising, etc. It takes a bit of digging, but it is worth the search.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Excellent Dr. G. Congrats to you for taking the time....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

screature said:


> Excellent Dr. G. Congrats to you for taking the time....


Well, I work too hard for my money to just give it away. I do NOT respond to telemarketers, especially since I found out that MADD, one of the organizations I used to donate to, lost it's Category A status since they farmed out their fundraising to telemarketers.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

screature said:


> Well then why comment at all...? I thought we were an online community trying to get to know one another and share info along the way.... Just my take I guess.


Exactly my point. Why would imnothng bother to comment at all? It comes off as inflammatory and offers little value to the community.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> Exactly my point. Why would imnothng bother to comment at all? It comes off as inflammatory and offers little value to the community.


It does come across as inflammatory I agree... and thus why I am interested in hearing his rebuttal...


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*somalia radio in english*

if anyone is interested, they can look at the english page of the radio station bar-kulan. the station is based in kenya, but broadcasts into somalia. it gets its information from inside somalia and broadcasts back in. set up and run by your fellow canadian, david smith. 
http://www.bar-kulan.com/category/news-in-english/


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes, let's give more money to Africa so that they can never learn how to stand on their own feet. Sorry, but having just finished reading Infidel it has given me a whole new insight into Somalia. I feel terrible for those kids, I really do. It's just a vicious cycle that keeps going on and on. It's not going to stop because we in our ivory towers give them more money. I made my comment to show that not everyone here is a hypocrite. There is more than enough to go around this world, but this forum is for something that is completely wasteful, yet you pat yourselves on the back because you sent some money to some charity. Sorry, but I don't follow it. To each their own.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

That is a disgusting comment! Africa knew very well how to survive for thousands of years before colonisation. 

Africa would probably be just fine if Europeans hadn't: 

1. Created political boundaries (aka countries) with the intention of including multiple tribes to prevent solidarity in resistance. 

2. Placed weaker, smaller ethnic groups in power to make them dependent on European armies (ie. Rwanda and Burundi).

Those are only two examples, but they explain most of the conflict, especially civil, in Africa. Imagine if Obama walked into Canada and declared Quebec's Premier had a dictatorship over all of Canada. 

How would that go for keeping Canada on it's feet? We would swing into political chaos immediately. 

There are many problems with aid, and I am no supporter of it. However, there is a stark difference between problems associated with aid and the perceived inability of Africans to stand for themselves. The latter is fundamentally racist.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"There are many problems with aid, and I am no supporter of it. However, there is a stark difference between problems associated with aid and the perceived inability of Africans to stand for themselves. The latter is fundamentally racist. " An excellent point, Adrian. :clap::clap::clap:


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

imnothng said:


> There is more than enough to go around this world, but this forum is for something that is completely wasteful, yet you pat yourselves on the back because you sent some money to some charity.


Saving lives is never wasteful. 

*EDIT: *_Removed my opinion of imnothng's character. And I'm going away for a few days to contemplate humanity._


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Adrian. said:


> There are many problems with aid, and I am no supporter of it. However, there is a stark difference between problems associated with aid and the perceived inability of Africans to stand for themselves. The latter is fundamentally racist.


Why do people have to play the racist card. There is nothing racist about it. If it was white people, it would be the same.

Don't think for a minute that these donations fix anything. This is a temporary fix. That's it. It's known that this area is a drought area. You either shouldn't live there, or there should be reserves made for this. Then there is no government or security in those countries (somalia, yemen, etc.), so you can't organzie anything. There are so many reasons people shouldn't live there.

Besides, as you yourself have said, the first world has meddled too much in Africa, and the more we do, the more mess we create. We create a society that is dependent on everyone else, and a bunch of coutries in kaos.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Saving lives is never wasteful. This may be in violation of ehMac's terms of use, but I have no choice but to say this: *You are a disgusting human being.*
> 
> I'll take that week's suspension now, Mr. Mayor, gladly.


Yeah you should get a vacation for that CM. You know nothing about imnothing as a human being other than his opinion on this particular issue, it doesn't give you the right to call him a disgusting human being... time for a time out...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> Yeah you should get a vacation for that CM. You know nothing about imnothing as a human being other than his opinion on this particular issue, it doesn't give you the right to call him a disgusting human being... time for a time out...


I agree. Whether we believe foreign aid works or not does not make someone a disgusting human being. Saying such a thing isn't remotely heroic or admirable.


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

i am always fascinated by people who think we should stop giving money to africa. i am sure the africans would agree with this, but on the condition that we stop taking money from africa. the amount of wealth extracted is vastly more than the little bit of aid provided. i would be interested to know if someone like imnothing has ever been to africa, has done any research or even any basic reading on the subject. a few years ago a filmaker took some aid sceptics on a tour to several places around the world where canada was funding projects and they all came back completely convinced about the use of aid. 
a good place to begin learning about the state of modern africa would be 'the state of africa', by martin meredith. excellent book talking about the shift to indepence for most of the countries in africa over the last 50 years. another great book is 'king leopold's ghost' by adam hochschild, about how the belgians took over congo. 
and don't forget the coltan in your iphone that comes from eastern congo, where millions have died for that and other resources. i can assure that no one is 'giving' anything to africa. the problem is not to stop giving, but to stop taking.


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*vanity fair article*

vanity fair has a good article about how chinese demand for ivory is devastating the elephant population in africa. yet another example of how wealthy foreign powers plunder resources, taking whatever they want, and then leave the population to starve.
Agony and Ivory | Culture | Vanity Fair


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

boukman2 said:


> vanity fair has a good article about how chinese demand for ivory is devastating the elephant population in africa. yet another example of how wealthy foreign powers plunder resources, taking whatever they want, and then leave the population to starve.
> Agony and Ivory | Culture | Vanity Fair


Yeah, so is your aid going to bring back these elephants or protect the one that are there. Prevent this and your actually doing something.

From reading the synopsis of the book "Infidel", I believe imnothing knows just as much as you do about Africa. It sounds like a very disturbing book. It shows just how much we don't know about Africa. I envisioned some of that, but probably not all of it, and I just read the synopsis.

And it sounds like you didn't even read his full post.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

kosh said:


> yeah, so is your aid going to bring back these elephants or protect the one that are there. Prevent this and your actually doing something.
> 
> From reading the synopsis of the book "*infidel*", i believe imnothing knows just as much as you do about africa. It sounds like a very disturbing book. It shows just how much we don't know about africa.
> 
> *and it sounds like you didn't even read his full post.*


+1


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Oh, and I should make it clear. I'm not saying anyone here should not provide aid. Yes, your helping, where you can and in the short term, till the the next drought. Which should be roughly 5-7 years away.

I'm just debating, like the others, the usefulness of this aid. And I sure hope that those who are providing aid over there have the security they need. These are the same countries that are inhabitted by the pirates and "gangs" (warlords, whatever they are called) and unlike you, they don't care about people's lives.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Kosh said:


> These are the same countries that are inhabitted by the pirates and "gangs" (warlords, whatever they are called) and unlike you, they don't care about people's lives.


Okay - one more post before I go away for awhile.

The Somali pirate phenomenon is something that the usually-simplistic western media took a long time to get it's head around... and sadly, few readers have caught up on the context. In a nutshell: the Somali fishermen have seen their lifestyle destroyed by foreign fishing fleets who have pilfered to near-exhaustion the coastal stocks in the context of a country with no state, no coast guard, no navy. Piracy was their way of (a) telling foreigners to get the hell out and (b) making money for their families' survival.

Here's one (surprising) mainstream media article from *Time* that may help:

*How Somalia's Fishermen Became Pirates*

And for the record, the Al-Shabaab militia should be wiped from the face of the earth. Blocking aid from reaching people who are dying by the thousands is unconscionable. 

The Somali situation is one that, as Adrian has noted, has long historical roots in colonization and continuing exploitation of resources by everyone except the Somalis. The Somali people, their leaders and the world are all complicit in this failed state- there is no easy or quick resolution. 

But that should not be an excuse to turn our backs on masses of people dying of starvation.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Okay - one more post before I go away for awhile...


A good post CM but I still think you owe imnothing an apology for your post... it is beneath you and beneath the standards that ehMax has set for ehMac.


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*fundamentalist islam isn't africa*



Kosh said:


> Yeah, so is your aid going to bring back these elephants or protect the one that are there. Prevent this and your actually doing something.
> 
> From reading the synopsis of the book "Infidel", I believe imnothing knows just as much as you do about Africa. It sounds like a very disturbing book. It shows just how much we don't know about Africa. I envisioned some of that, but probably not all of it, and I just read the synopsis.
> 
> And it sounds like you didn't even read his full post.


er, not quite sure what you mean by 'didn't read his full post'.
i haven't read 'infidel', but i had heard of this woman, who sounds amazing. but lets get a couple of things clear here. first of all, of course, is that all of africa is not muslim, and even within the parts that are, fundamentalist islam is only a part of islam in general. are these guys like el shabab among the worst in the world? of course. but i am not too sure what that has to do with helping people in somalia, and certainly not with aid in general. 
when you say you don't think sending aid to africa is doing any good, then we are talking about fundamental structural problems. 'infidel' is not in any way about the underlying problems in africa as a whole. again, please do some reading. 
my example about the slaughter of the elephants was just one example of how foreigners are extracting resources and one example of how we are 'taking' much more than we are 'giving'.
i should also point out that those are only two books, not everything i know. i consider myself a bit of a novice with regard to africa. i have been in senegal, mali, burkina faso, rwanda, uganda, south africa, mozambique and made four trips to DRCongo, but that is very little really. i do know that it is a long and complicated story. 
if you are really interested in the problem of foreign aid, you should also read 'dead aid', by dambisa moyo. she is highly critical of the way that foreign aid works. but she is also very clear that emergency aid is a very different issue and supports it wholeheartedly.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

screature said:


> +1


Actually, it looks like I get a -1 in this case.

I'll admit when I was wrong. It sounds like boukman2 did read the imnothing's post.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

boukman2 said:


> ... *how we are 'taking' much more than we are 'giving'.*


Who is this homogeneous "we" you keep referring to... is it me, is it you, is it all of us who are non-African??? 

I get so tired of this collective guilt that gets plastered on citizens of the west/first world nations as if they are all directly responsible for the injustices committed elsewhere and/or generations ago when they had nothing to do with them. 

Are you Catholic/Christian by any chance and believe in original sin... simply by being born in the west are we guilty of the sins of our forefathers?

BTW common practices of English grammar, punctuation and capitalization would make your posts infinitely more readable.


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

i don't think anyone is talking about guilt. responsibility perhaps. all depends on how you feel about these things. people who don't care about the well being of others are missing out is all. i should also add that i am not religious in any way. 
but have you ever asked yourself the question of why you live in a safe society with lots material goods, (like your computer made with coltan, one of the focal points of the war in congo), why you drive around without worrying about being carjacked, why you have first class health care, and all those people so negligently dieing over there don't? we live in a society of astonishing wealth, far beyond what the richest king in the 19th century had. it seems to me that the least we can do is to help out a bit the less fortunate.
if you are interested in why we are so rich, try 'guns, germs and steel' by jared diamond. 
and while everyone is entitled to their opinion, it would be nice if people looked a bit into things, or at least considered the point of view of others who have some experience and background in issues like these. there are no cut and dried answers, and sometimes it's a bit scary to look at things like the death of millions by starvation, but not even trying isn't the answer. and neither is abandoning them on the basis of a uninformed opinion. 
and try a little thought experiment. imagine writing to the author of 'infidel' and asking her whether you should do something to help the famine in somalia. do you think she would tell you to just let them all die?
as for grammar etc, i don't like capitals in email and chats like this. find them a bit loud. likewise, i sometimes drop pronouns... but i assure you it is just to keep a casual tone. sorry if you aren't amused.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Kosh said:


> Why do people have to play the racist card. There is nothing racist about it. If it was white people, it would be the same.
> 
> Don't think for a minute that these donations fix anything. This is a temporary fix. That's it. It's known that this area is a drought area. You either shouldn't live there, or there should be reserves made for this. Then there is no government or security in those countries (somalia, yemen, etc.), so you can't organzie anything. There are so many reasons people shouldn't live there.
> 
> Besides, as you yourself have said, the first world has meddled too much in Africa, and the more we do, the more mess we create. We create a society that is dependent on everyone else, and a bunch of coutries in kaos.


The west - and now recently the China - still meddles there. There is no beginning nor end in history, there is only continuity and change. 

Africa has been ravaged by the west for 300 years in different ways, some more directly than others. From King Leo giving 1 pound of gold to every Belgian who came to him with a bag of Congolese hands (yes, they went around and chopped off peoples hands), to the US and Soviets dumping weapons into the pettiest crooks hands and propping him up as the leader of the country so they could draw that country blue or red, that depended which side of the"West" you were on. 

The West has plundered Africa for its wealth without any compensation. How is that Africa has the highest concentration of diamonds, gold, platinum, coltan and titanium in the world yet it is the poorest continent? I think it might have something to do with the fact that Africans do not control that wealth. Look at the existing rail lines in Africa:











A good way to judge a country's independence is how the rail lines are drawn. All of those rail lines go directly to ports. There was no interest in connecting Africa with rail, just to bleed the continent dry.


I am not going to try and convince anyone here of anything. There are many books that have done a splendid job of exploring this topic. Many are right saying that giving aid to Africa does not solve anything, because it doesn't. Most aid is not given with altruistic targets - all US food aid is purchased as surplus price supports for US farmers and then proceeds to kill any domestic agricultural farm economies (how can you compete with free?). However, to say that the west does not owe a great amount of compensation to Africa is pure and utter ignorance and should not be tolerated. Look at your wedding ring, look at your iPhone, look at the companies that employ you - much of it has African blood on them.

Africa has financed western wealth. Just as many other people around the world have.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

boukman2 said:


> i don't think anyone is talking about guilt. responsibility perhaps. all depends on how you feel about these things. people who don't care about the well being of others are missing out is all. i should also add that i am not religious in any way.
> but have you ever asked yourself the question of why you live in a safe society with lots material goods, (like your computer made with coltan, one of the focal points of the war in congo), why you drive around without worrying about being carjacked, why you have first class health care, and all those people so negligently dieing over there don't? we live in a society of astonishing wealth, far beyond what the richest king in the 19th century had. it seems to me that the least we can do is to help out a bit the less fortunate.
> if you are interested in why we are so rich, try 'guns, germs and steel' by jared diamond.
> and while everyone is entitled to their opinion, it would be nice if people looked a bit into things, or at least considered the point of view of others who have some experience and background in issues like these. there are no cut and dried answers, and sometimes it's a bit scary to look at things like the death of millions by starvation, but not even trying isn't the answer. and neither is abandoning them on the basis of a uninformed opinion.
> ...


If you want to feel responsible for the misfortune of others that is your choice. It's a crap shoot as to where you are and the situation you find yourself in, we in the west are indeed fortunate to live in developed countries but I am not about to take on the responsibility for the exploitation that those who have gone before me may have perpetrated.

Look at the history of the world going back for millennia there have *always* been the victors and the vanquished, this is nothing knew. I was not responsible for the war in the Congo or any other situation in Africa, South America or Asia, etc. I feel absolutely no responsibility for them in any way whatsoever as I have none to bear. I may have empathy and compassion but that is an entirely different thing.

I am not interested in your "reading list" and your tone of condescension as if you have something to teach the rest of us, what makes you think that your experience, reading or thought processes are so superior to the rest of us in regard to such matters? It is needless to say a bit presumptuous if not down right arrogant.

BTW you speak of "Africa" as if it were a homogeneous whole which for someone who has travelled there as much as you say seems to be just a little bit colonial in thinking. It consists of 54 sovereign states and to paint with a brush of all the same colour of "Africa" is to do a disservice to the vast diversity of history, culture, religion, languages and economies that exist there.


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

I really don't know if I care enough to put as much thought in this as should be done. We all sit over here so hypocritical in our way of life, but pat ourselves on the backs. I for one would LOVE to see strong and united African countries where people didn't suffer so much. No one should have to go through that. I don't know the true problem's that exist, nor do I know how to solve those problems. What I do believe is that sending money to them is not going to help them in the long run? Why do I believe that you may ask? Because we've been doing that for long enough and it doesn't appear to be making a difference in the whole. I'm sure the odd village or what have you is better off, but the whole country probably isn't.

I try to make better choices while living my life here. I try to instill in my children that the choices we make have consequences for others around the world. I am one person that can only do so much to help, but I do that by not rushing out for that new iPhone that is .01% faster or smaller or lighter or whatever. I do that by pointing out to my wife while she browses at diamonds to not forget that there's probably some African kids blood that was spilled on it. I'm not the greatest and I don't forgo my "i" products, but I also don't forget where the crap that makes them comes from and the suffering that it causes.

While religion may not be "Africa's" problem, it sure is Somalia's.

Oh and Cubamark dude. My wife agrees with you that I am a disgusting human being with some of my views, so no need to apologize or anything, lol.

Blah blah blah, who cares...


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

hmmm... not quite sure where you are going here. i have done some reading, and i have been in some of those crazy places, yes. but i don't see how attempting to add some informed commentary here is 'condescending'. just trying to write in a polite tone. 
you seem to be very sure of your opinions, and yet you don't seem to aware of what is happening in terms of resource extraction in africa and canada's role in that extraction. i don't have nearly enough background to provide an overview, but i know enough to assure you that there are definitely connections between canada and various countries in africa, particularly in mining. do you own gold, diamonds? do you know where it came from? did the gas you put in your car the other day come out of the ground in nigeria? and of course there is always that pesky coltan in your cellphone, almost certainly linked to the war in eastern congo. do you know about that? the world is a little place and africa isn't far away, it's next door. if it has problems, then you are about to have problems because of it. 
do you mind if i ask what you base your opinions on? what experience you have? as i pointed out in an earlier post, i am a novice when it comes to that large complicated continent.
(by the way, 'new', not 'knew'. just a typo, i now. he he...)


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

boukman2 said:


> hmmm... not quite sure where you are going here. i have done some reading, and i have been in some of those crazy places, yes. but i don't see how attempting to add some informed commentary here is 'condescending'. just trying to write in a polite tone.
> you seem to be very sure of your opinions, and yet you don't seem to aware of what is happening in terms of resource extraction in africa and canada's role in that extraction. i don't have nearly enough background to provide an overview, but i know enough to assure you that there are definitely connections between canada and various countries in africa, particularly in mining. do you own gold, diamonds? do you know where it came from? did the gas you put in your car the other day come out of the ground in nigeria? and of course there is always that pesky coltan in your cellphone, almost certainly linked to the war in eastern congo. do you know about that? the world is a little place and africa isn't far away, it's next door. if it has problems, then you are about to have problems because of it.
> do you mind if i ask what you base your opinions on? what experience you have? as i pointed out in an earlier post, i am a novice when it comes to that large complicated continent.
> (by the way, 'new', not 'knew'. just a typo, i now. he he...)


Canada does not have mines in Africa, Canadian companies do, so what? It is a global economy. If those companies have bad practices that is their fault not mine. I don't own gold or diamonds, I am not that affluent. Do you know where the gas comes from that you put in your car?... see it is these kind of comments that smack of condescension and arrogance. 

BTW I don't even own a cell phone and even if I did it doesn't make me responsible for the behaviour of the companies involved in coltan's production, not even remotely.

See I don't think the world it is a very small place, quite the contrary I think it is a very big place and we are not to be held accountable for the actions of others, I am only responsible for what I do and I have nothing to feel guilty about or responsible for regrading the plight of some African nations. That I know for sure.

I base my opinions on my thoughts, my education, job experience, the things I read (just as you do, but I am not about to post a reading list for you) and my 48 years here on this planet and the experiences it has provided and the lessons I have learned from it.


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

hmmm... still a bit confused here. this is a discussion about aid in africa. i have a certain amount of knowledge in this area. i volunteered to share some of this knowledge. given the lack of informed opinion, i thought it would be useful. but you seem to see this as 'condescending and arrogant'. actually having some background when participating in a discussion is a bad thing?


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

boukman2 said:


> hmmm... still a bit confused here. this is a discussion about aid in africa. i have a certain amount of knowledge in this area. i volunteered to share some of this knowledge. given the lack of informed opinion, i thought it would be useful. but you seem to see this as 'condescending and arrogant'. actually having some background when participating in a discussion is a bad thing?


Welcome to ehMac.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

boukman2 said:


> (by the way, 'new', not 'knew'. just a typo, i now. he he...)


I'm sure screature is thankful for you pointing that out.
Seeing has how we are nit-picking, it appears to me that your "shift" is not working.
And that wouldn't be a typo, more like laziness.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

boukman2, you must forgive Screature. Sometimes he feels entitled to pinning on his sheriff's badge. Not to worry. It's the internet; no one has a lock on authority. The mayor can discipline you if he so chooses but you'd have to be pretty extreme to get to that point.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

boukman2 said:


> hmmm... still a bit confused here. this is a discussion about aid in africa. i have a certain amount of knowledge in this area. i volunteered to share some of this knowledge. given the lack of informed opinion, i thought it would be useful. but you seem to see this as 'condescending and arrogant'. actually having some background when participating in a discussion is a bad thing?


It is the asking do you know where the coltan in your cell phone comes from, your gas, did you know Canadian mines are operating in Africa, your should read this and that book etc. that comes of as condescending presuming we are ignorant of such things.

Sharing of information is always useful but it is the manner in which it is done and the underlying tone that makes all the difference.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Max said:


> boukman2, you must forgive Screature. Sometimes he feels entitled to pinning on his sheriff's badge. Not to worry. It's the internet; no one has a lock on authority. The mayor can discipline you if he so chooses but you'd have to be pretty extreme to get to that point.


I don't need your condescension either Max, thanks all the same. BTW where was I pinning on a sheriffs badge in anything I said... other than to suggest, which he admitted to himself, CM was out of line in calling imnothing a disgusting human being. 

It seems you are guilty of the very thing you are accusing me of right now amigo...


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Boukman2, I trust you see what I mean.

Screature: have a nice, condescension-free evening.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Sharing of information is always useful but it is the manner in which it is done and the underlying tone that makes all the difference.


...which is extremely difficult to judge accurately over the internet, since bare text eliminates a lot of that information, and we are not equally skilled at conveying accurate tone in writing. 

I've found that erring on the side of good intent tends to keep things more peaceful for me, though not everyone enjoys a peaceful internet.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> ...*which is extremely difficult to judge accurately over the internet, since bare text eliminates a lot of that information, and we are not equally skilled at conveying accurate tone in writing. *
> 
> I've found that erring on the side of good intent tends to keep things more peaceful for me, though not everyone enjoys a peaceful internet.


True enough....


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I see that the Max-cloud passed over again, infusing the air with that peculiar sense of non-judgmental judgment.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I see that the Max-cloud passed over again, infusing the air with that peculiar sense of non-judgmental judgment.


Indeed...


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I see a familiar MF cloud of doctrinaire brittleness has passed over again, followed by that peculiar screature-esque cloud of weighty yet open-ended ellipses. You guys ever team up, we'll have a whole gloomy weather system to endure.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

More openly judgmental this time...









Oh the irony...


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

screature said:


> More openly judgmental this time...
> 
> View attachment 20755
> 
> ...


I see Max as more of a keen observer than Sheriff.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Well, that's a nice picture, alright! Thank you for thinking of me, screature. I would appreciate it more had you actually snapped the photo yourself, but there's that saying about gift horses, so I'm just going to be suitably grateful.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Max said:


> Well, that's a nice picture, alright! Thank you for thinking of me, screature. I would appreciate it more had you actually snapped the photo yourself, but there's that saying about gift horses, so I'm just going to be suitably grateful.


Maybe I will see if I can have one done up for you... I have a friend who is a jeweller and a pewtersmith.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

screature said:


> Maybe I will see if I can have one done up for you... I have a friend who is a jeweller and a pewtersmith.


Did he make yours?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

screature, you mustn't go to the trouble. I will simply pin the badge on metaphysically and act appropriately. I take it I'm a deputy serving under you?

stinky rivalry
of old hands on chat forum~
famine continues


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> screature, you mustn't go to the trouble. I will simply pin the badge on metaphysically and act appropriately. I take it I'm a deputy serving under you?


Nope. No Chester or Festus, you. You're a sort of Sagebrush Shorty or Gabby Hayes, letting the rustlers steal the keys.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

_Riiiiiiight. _In your own little blue book, I'm sure it's written down in just that very way.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

There is, in my very humble opinion, a certain irony in complaining that political discussion on ehMac tends to become too argumentative and vitriolic and then getting into an argument with someone else due to the perception of their tone.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

irony alert!
all hands on deck- must correct
wicked blights galore


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

mrjimmy said:


> Did he make yours?


*She* did, but mine says Marshall screature. I wear it proudly.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Max said:


> screature, you mustn't go to the trouble. I will simply pin the badge on metaphysically and act appropriately. I take it I'm a deputy serving under you?
> 
> stinky rivalry
> of old hands on chat forum~
> famine continues


Deputy? I don't need no stinkin' deputies...

drought and despair
who is at fault, who's to blame
sinners of wild west


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

more complex than that
blame game's like an oil spill~
touch it, you're dirty


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

screature said:


> *She* did, but mine says Marshall screature. I wear it proudly.


As you should.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Max said:


> more complex than that
> blame game's like an oil spill~
> touch it, you're dirty


indicted, guilty...
always reason for blame
light on solutions


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> There is, in my very humble opinion, a certain irony in *complaining that political discussion on ehMac tends to become too argumentative and vitriolic* and then getting into an argument with someone else due to the perception of their tone.


Who would ever do that? I think you must have misunderstood.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> Who would ever do that?


Seriously. I come here expecting to enjoy a salad lightly dressed with sarcasm and infused with oil of vitriol. Why complain about it?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

1.
well, people complain
out of sheer habit, don't they?
it's the internet.

2.
the snake oil salesman
hates the other guy's snake oil~
pretends his is gold.

3.
solutions are rare
in a world full of problems
but we muddle through


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Seriously. I come here expecting to enjoy a salad lightly dressed with sarcasm and infused with oil of vitriol. Why complain about it?


There and I thought you'd be slinging sides of beef down your gullet, washing 'em down with jugs of BBQ sauce while keeping a sharp weather eye open for the Enema of Damocles.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> There and I thought you'd be slinging sides of beef down your gullet, washing 'em down with jugs of BBQ sauce while keeping a sharp weather eye open for the Enema of Damocles.


I think the enema has worked its miracle in the form of your post.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> I think the enema has worked its miracle in the form of your post.


Hope you got your breeks down in time.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Tens of thousands of people dying... and this is how you lot spent your weekend?
*


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Did you come up with a solution to the situation over the week-end and catching the next flight to Somalia or are you going to the UN to make a presentation first?


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> *Tens of thousands of people dying... and this is how you lot spent your weekend?
> *


A well deserved reprimand, CM. (Me included.)


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Did you come up with a solution to the situation over the week-end *and catching* [sic] the next flight to Somalia or are you going to the UN to make a presentation first?


Considering the topic, that is a misplaced and disgraceful piece of illiterate spite.


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> *Tens of thousands of people dying... and this is how you lot spent your weekend?*


*

nope, I spent it working and enjoying life while I have it. What great fantastic thing did you do to help these special people that are dying?*


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The sanctimony is appalling: "I, CubaMark, have presented you with a problem, and I, CubaMark, expect your undivided attention until it is solved to my satisfaction." 

I've had enough of you, CM.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> I've had enough of you, CM.


Why do I think the feeling is mutual?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> Why do I think the feeling is mutual?


Because you always think this?


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Because you always think this?


Do I MF? I think he may simply be tired of you nipping at the heels of every thread he posts is all.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> Do I MF? I think he may simply be tired of you nipping at the heels of every thread he posts is all.


I'm sure he appreciates you fighting his battles for him. However, I disagree with almost all of CM's views. This is the risk we all take by posting in a public forum. In a word, we must learn to suck it up.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> I've had enough of you, CM.


Then take a hike and don't bother reading, let alone posting in CM's threads.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Trolling aside, and to return to the topic of this thread, there is a paragraph in this item which should help to comfort those who despise charity-giving. Trying to get the farming industry up and working is the key.



> Some $12m will be for immediate assistance to those worst hit by what the UN says is East Africa's worst drought in 60 years.
> 
> But the bulk of the money will go towards long-term projects to aid livestock farmers.


The trolls can start another thread along the lines of 'Why charity sucks' (that wording should draw the ruff-tuff-cream-puffs like flies on the proverbial). Of course, the trolls won't start another thread because they only get their rocks off by derailing other folks' threads.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

This thread is full of win.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Except if you're in Somalia and feeling peckish.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> Except if you're in Somalia and feeling peckish.


If they could see this thread I sincerely doubt what they would feel is peckish.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> Considering the topic, that is a misplaced and disgraceful piece of illiterate spite.


Illiterate... uhhmm no, 

catch |ka ch; ke ch |
verb ( past caught |kôt|) [ trans. ]
1 intercept and hold (something that has been thrown, propelled, or dropped) : she threw the bottle into the air and caught it again.
• intercept the fall of (someone).
• seize or take hold of : he caught hold of her arm as she tried to push past him.
• [ intrans. ] ( catch at) grasp or try to grasp : his hands caught at her arms as she tried to turn away.
2 capture (a person or animal that tries or would try to escape) : we hadn't caught a single rabbit.
• [ intrans. ] (of an object) accidentally become entangled or trapped in something : the charm bracelet always caught on her clothing.
• [ trans. ] (of a person) have (a part of one's body or clothing) become entangled or trapped in something : she caught her foot in the bedspread | figurative companies face increased risks of being caught in a downward spiral.
• [ trans. ] (usu. be caught) fix or fasten in place : her hair was caught back in a scrunchie.
*3 reach in time and board (a train, bus, or aircraft) : they caught the 12:15 from Chicago.*

Misplaced and disgraceful, again uhmm no on topic and to the point.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

To be fair, all this 'trolling' started out completely on-topic. (Quotes because it's not, IMO, really trolling.)

In any case, I donated. I know MacFury regularly aids entrepreneurs in Africa (among other areas of the world) via Kiva, though Somalia isn't a country that Kiva works with at this time. I don't know about anyone else because I assume they prefer to keep their charitable ventures private. Let us not assume that a love or arguing necessarily means a desire to do nothing.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> Trolling aside, and to return to the topic of this thread, there is a paragraph in this item which should help to comfort those who despise charity-giving. Trying to get the farming industry up and working is the key.
> 
> The trolls can start another thread along the lines of 'Why charity sucks' (that wording should draw the ruff-tuff-cream-puffs like flies on the proverbial). Of course, the trolls won't start another thread because they only get their rocks off by derailing other folks' threads.


No tolling. Speaking to the topic at hand. If you choose to believe that donations to charities will even remotely begin to have any effect on the drought, crop failure, animals and humans dying let alone the political situation in Somalia or provide anything other than at the most a very, very temporary band-aid to a situation that has been going on for decades that is your prerogative. 

Simply because some of us choose to see the reality and the complexities of the situation in Somalia for what it is that cannot be solved with simplistic band-aid solutions (e.g. private donation from the middle class) does not mean that it is in the least bit off topic or constitutes trolling, it is simply a counter point and quite frankly a much more realistic one IMO.

Virtually no thread here and the contents of the posts contained therein is homogeneous in their defence or disagreement with the subject at hand... it's called debate and free speech, something to which you seem to be opposed.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

screature said:


> Virtually no thread here and the contents of the posts contained therein is homogeneous in their defence or disagreement with the subject at hand... it's called debate and free speech, something to which you seem to be opposed.


So you're opposing people who oppose opposing viewpoints? What an f'n lovely thread this is turning out to be. :lmao:


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> So you're opposing people who oppose opposing viewpoints? What an f'n lovely thread this is turning out to be. :lmao:


Uhmm... that is a convoluted twist. I am presenting a counter point to the notion that SQ presented that an opposing view point constitutes trolling. What's not to get?


----------



## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Illiterate... uhhmm no,
> 
> catch |ka ch; ke ch |
> verb ( past caught |kôt|) [ trans. ]
> ...


There!

And after all that jolly hard work, too! A frenetic outpouring taken from a dictionary and you are still lacking in understanding.

Watch carefully:



screature said:


> *Did you come up with* a solution to the situation over the week-end *and catching* the next flight to Somalia or are you going to the UN to make a presentation first?


It's a mixing of tenses that doesn't work. 

If you'd said :

*Did you come up with* a solution to the situation over the week-end *and catch*** the next flight to Somalia or are you going to the UN to make a presentation first?

OR :

*Did you come up with* a solution to the situation over the week-end *and end up catching* the next flight to Somalia or are you going to the UN to make a presentation first?

There are a variety of ways to do the job properly. You just failed, that's all. Better than starving in Somalia, eh? 


** see? Minus the '-ing' thing.

So, uhmm yes actually, bad English. Dragging in the various meanings of the word 'catch' is irrelevant to the point about tenses.

And uhmmm, your post was a snippy poke at CM - the topic is '*Tens of thousands dead in the Horn of Africa*', and a suggestion that donations can be made to help the situation.

You did make a reasonable enough point about charities not passing on enough of the donations due to their heavy 'administration costs' - we all know that. You could have left it there and retired with honour intact.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

imnothng said:


> What great fantastic thing did you do to help these special people that are dying?


My personal finances are such that I am unable to make any financial commitment, but I have been attempting to make a contribution by raising awareness wherever possible. I wish I could do more - particularly as I have dear Somali friends and have read extensively the studies on refugees, the UNHCR, the Horn of Africa and in particular the situation of women in the Dadaab refugee camp in North-Eastern Kenya. 

As for catching a plane on the weekend... no, *screature*, in fact I spent the weekend with my family and in-laws cowering in the most secure room of their house while the narco-bastards murdered a 22-year-old on the street outside at 1am.

Sorry that I am unable to solve the world's problems.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

screature said:


> Uhmm... that is a convoluted twist. I am presenting a counter point to the notion that SQ presented that an opposing view point constitutes trolling. What's not to get?


Actually, it's not convoluted at all. But please continue to direct the forum as you see fit.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

such genteel pastimes!
fiercely debate micro-points,
bang gavel and burp


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> There!...


Well there now, do you fell better, all puffed and proud, yep I made an error in the grammar that I used in the post... oh the horror. 

My post was a retort to the sanctimony of CM's post... pot meet kettle. 

As for honour, you have no high ground to speak from on the matter so I would quit while you think you are ahead.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> Actually, it's not convoluted at all. But please continue to direct the forum as you see fit.


Whose directing anything... seems you want to take responsibility for that without a single thought to offer other than on the course of the thread itself.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Why do I sense this thread being closed soon? It's too bad really as it started by doing good work indeed.

Maybe the Mayor could just broom out all the BS that has accumulated and let it start again.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Max said:


> such genteel pastimes!
> fiercely debate micro-points,
> bang gavel and burp


LOL Max.. one of your best I think.

I for one shall heed the message of your Haiku and refrain from further contributions to the banging and burping.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

screature said:


> Whose directing anything... seems you want to take responsibility for that without a single thought to offer other than on the course of the thread itself.


Easy there, Marshall.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

mrjimmy said:


> Why do I sense this thread being closed soon? It's too bad really as it started by doing good work indeed.
> 
> Maybe the Mayor could just broom out all the BS that has accumulated and let it start again.


+1

They can start a new thread if they want. No need to stink this one up.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> ...As for catching a plane on the weekend... no, *screature*, in fact I spent the weekend with my family and in-laws cowering in the most secure room of their house while the narco-bastards murdered a 22-year-old on the street outside at 1am.
> 
> Sorry that I am unable to solve the world's problems.


I am sorry to hear of the difficulties that you are experiencing CubaMark. It must be dreadful for you and your family. Are you in a position to move from the area any time soon?

I also would like to apologize for my part in the off topic portions of the thread as I know your heart was/is in the right place. 

However, I do not apologize for my belief that individual's charitable contributions will be of any significant benefit to Somalia or significantly reduce the plight of the people living and dying there as I believe the situation is far too complex and dire for such modest contributions to be of any significant consequence. 

I also did and do take exception to the notion that was expressed that just because we live in the west that we are somehow individually responsible for the situation that exists there, it is simply my opinion and I was not and am not trying to dissuade anyone from donating who feels or believes otherwise.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> My personal finances are such that I am unable to make any financial commitment, but I have been attempting to make a contribution by raising awareness wherever possible. I wish I could do more - particularly as I have dear Somali friends and have read extensively the studies on refugees, the UNHCR, the Horn of Africa and in particular the situation of women in the Dadaab refugee camp in North-Eastern Kenya.
> 
> As for catching a plane on the weekend... no, *screature*, in fact I spent the weekend with my family and in-laws cowering in the most secure room of their house while the narco-bastards murdered a 22-year-old on the street outside at 1am.
> 
> Sorry that I am unable to solve the world's problems.


CM, I just sent in a donation of $100 to UNICEF. While it will come out of my Visa account, consider it in your name in that were you able to you would be donating as well. Paix, mi amigo.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dr.G. said:


> CM, I just sent in a donation of $100 to UNICEF. While it will come out of my Visa account, consider it in your name in that were you able to you would be donating as well. Paix, mi amigo.


Dr. G., that is a kind and generous thing to do and I am sure CM is grateful. Wish I had thought of it myself. It also takes courage to admit to financial limits on a public board. I salute both you and CubaMark for your efforts and principles. :clap:


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Thanks to all for reigning it in a bit - I am (too often?) ruled by my heart but as I've noted in a PM to Dr. G., I'll seek a better path. And I am indeed grateful for his extremely generous donation. That fella is building up a mountain of karma...

Screature: no, we're not likely to be out of here anytime soon... even the family-class sponsorship path has a massive backlog (across all categories, there are over a million pending cases, with approx. 250-thousand immigrants admitted per year). My son will have his Canadian passport in a few months, but my wife has a longer path to follow.

On the matter of charity and "significant benefit to Somalia" being unlikely: I agree wholeheartedly. Surprised?

However - my feeling is this: there is sufficient surplus wealth in Western nations that as a whole, we cannot justify not acting to prevent imminent death. Charitable donations in the case such as the present famine will do one thing: keep people alive who would otherwise have died. It's not about long-term solutions. That's another discussion altogether.

But Adrian and boukman have valid points that I urge you to consider. Yes, in history there have always been "winners and loser" - but the point is that today, in the opening years of the 21st Century, we as human beings have begun to evolve the ethics and sense of broader humanity which should guide our desire for a better world than that which has gone before. 

The West is happy to be the world's policeman when there are economic interests at stake... not so much when there are human interests. Somalia has been a failed state for 21 years... more than sad, it is an embarrassment. Yes, the individual militant / ethnic / religious groups and leaders have much of that blame to shoulder... but who cares? Assigning blame does not solve the problem. The world community has done as much to allow the situation to happen by not providing sufficient attention to maintaining Somali national border integrity and act to prevent the exploitation of its resources.

There are some groups, some countries, doing amazing work. CARE Canada is one of those, involved in the operation of the Dadaab camp, among others. They save lives on a daily basis - their workers are heroes working in a desperately unsafe environment. 

Charity is a Christian concept... or rather, a mandate, if I recall my Sunday School lessons clearly. If it does not lead to long-term solutions that is not a fault of the charity, it is a fault of the context in which the problem exists. Charities are not governments, they are stop-gaps, and some - like the Dadaab camps - are operating far beyond their initial raison d'etre, but they continue because to stop would be condemning hundreds of thousands to misery and death.

A complicated situation, a complicated response, but - in my mind at least - a very clear ethical imperative.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

SINC said:


> Dr. G., that is a kind and generous thing to do and I am sure CM is grateful. Wish I had thought of it myself. It also takes courage to admit to financial limits on a public board. I salute both you and CubaMark for your efforts and principles. :clap:


Merci, mon ami. Paix.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Thanks to all for reigning it in a bit - I am (too often?) ruled by my heart but as I've noted in a PM to Dr. G., I'll seek a better path. And I am indeed grateful for his extremely generous donation. That fella is building up a mountain of karma...
> 
> Screature: no, we're not likely to be out of here anytime soon... even the family-class sponsorship path has a massive backlog (across all categories, there are over a million pending cases, with approx. 250-thousand immigrants admitted per year). My son will have his Canadian passport in a few months, *but my wife has a longer path to follow*.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear that your immigration situation for your wife is so problematic.. my sympathies and best wishes for a speedy reversal of fortune.

Agreed. It is up nations to step up to the plate and not leave it to individuals... hard working tax paying individuals to pull up the slack... those who have already been taxed to the hilt and then expected to give more out of guilt and a sense of "responsibility". 

I doubt that private individual donations will keep anyone alive for very long if at all but if you have the conviction that it will help and you choose to spread "the word" best wishes to you. I guess I am too old and cynical now to have any faith or hope in such things.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Heartbreaking images...* I'll spare those who have neither the interest nor the stomach. The first shot on the page is very hard to look at.

The rest of you, should you wish to see how dire the situation is, here is The Atlantic's In Focus photoblog.

The Dadaab refugee camps were set up twenty years ago to house Somalis fleeing from the civil war that ultimately destroyed that nation. Twenty years of living in a "temporary" condition. There are now 400-thousand refugees under care of the UNHCR - there would be tens of thousands more, but Kenya has periodically closed its border with Somalia over the years - no-one knows what happened to the people who couldn't cross in those periods.

And now tens of thousands more are arriving, fleeing the famine in the Horn of Africa (they'd somehow learned to live with the insecurity).

And if you think the camps are a safe refuge... they are desperately horrid places. Hopeless places. Violent places. One of the greatest needs on a daily basis is firewood to cook the meagre food rations. Men don't do this - if they leave the camp borders, they are usually shot dead by bandits or locals who resent the refugee presence. So they send the women... because the bandits won't kill women, they just rape them. 

Here's a report from actress Kristin Davis, a UNHCR ambassador, from a week ago...



> I was unprepared for what I saw at the Dadaab camp in Kenya. Totally unprepared for the utter sense of panic in the people I met there. These were the newcomers, p*eople who could not fit into the largest refugee camp in the world. Because they could not fit, they were left outside in the nothingness that surrounds the camp. Their unbelievably difficult journey towards food, water, and shelter had led them to none of those things.*
> 
> Faduma Hussein Yagoub told me she came with her family to Dadaab – but her husband and two of her children died along the way.
> 
> They were panicked because many had lost children during the journey to Dadaab, and many children were dying on arrival. Past the point where food and water could bring them back to life. They were panicked because *hyenas circle the area every night looking for the weakest of the children. The women I met are mostly alone, trying to protect babies and small children by themselves with nothing but thorny twigs.* Most of these women have collected "unaccompanied minors" along their journey to the camp. These children are no relation to the women who now try to keep them alive. They are probably orphans. But that will take some time to sort out.


More of Kristin's report via Oxfam


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> *Heartbreaking images...* I'll spare those who have neither the interest nor the stomach. The first shot on the page is very hard to look at.
> 
> The rest of you, should you wish to see how dire the situation is, here is The Atlantic's In Focus photoblog.
> 
> ...


Heart breaking indeed... I could say more but it would be insufficient... This catastrophe is like a slow tsunami or earthquake, killing thousands upon thousands slowly. 

Don't take this the wrong way but it would almost be better for the people of Somalia if the catastrophe they are experiencing were sudden and visibly violent like a tsunami or earthquake. The nations of the world seem to stand up and pay more attention under such circumstances... sudden catastrophe and death seems to garner much more attention than a slow painful death. 

Not as much Press attention or revenues I guess...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*SOMALIA: "I Carried Him a Whole Day While He Was Dead, Thinking He Was Alive"*



> As the first of food aid from the United Nations World Food Programme was airlifted into Mogadishu on Wednesday, it came too late for Qadija Ali’s two- year-old son Farah.
> 
> He died in his mother’s arms as Ali and her eight other children made the 16-day epic journey from their drought-stricken village in Wanlaweyn district, Lower Shabelle, in southern Somalia to Mogadishu.
> 
> "I carried him a whole day while he was dead thinking he was alive and just asleep. We did not have anything to give him. No water or food for three days," an emotional Ali tells IPS at Badbado Camp on the outskirts of the Somali capital.





> Somalia is the country worst affected by a severe drought that has ravaged the Horn of Africa, leaving an estimated 11 million people in dire need of humanitarian assistance. Kenya, Ethiopia and Djibouti are all also facing a crisis that is being called the worst in 60 years. Last week the U.N. declared a famine in parts of southern Somalia.
> 
> The agency estimates that in total 2.23 million children in Somalia, Kenya and Ethiopia are acutely malnourished. The U.N. says it has delivered 1,300 metric tonnes of supplies to southern Somalia, including therapeutic supplies to treat over 66,000 malnourished children.
> 
> Meanwhile, people are still fleeing their homes in southern Somalia. The U.N. says almost 100,000 displaced people have arrived in Mogadishu, with nearly 40,000 of those in the past month.


(IPSnews)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

It looks to me that we Canadians are doing our part and stepping up to the plate:

Canadian donations for famine victims double to $2.9-million in a week - The Globe and Mail


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

SINC said:


> It looks to me that we Canadians are doing our part and stepping up to the plate:
> 
> Canadian donations for famine victims double to $2.9-million in a week - The Globe and Mail


Maybe YOU Canadians, but not this one.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

imnothng said:


> Maybe YOU Canadians, but not this one.


Yes, we get it. It's not always about you, ya know?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

imnothng said:


> Maybe YOU Canadians, but not this one.


Just for this comment, I am going to donate $25 with you in mind to Save the Children. So, now you are able to say that some money was donated to help some children somewhere in your name ........... and if you don't like it, well ............. Paix, mon ami.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MannyP Design said:


> Yes, we get it. It's not always about you, ya know?


Good point, MannyP. Paix, mon ami.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

From the comments to the Globe & Mail article posted by SINC:



> *catholichousewife:* when I read a headline that says "Canadian donations for famine victims double to 2.9 million" I feel a renewed sense of faith in humanity
> 
> ...and then I read the comments online at the Globe and Mail :/


The ignorance and blatant prejudice expressed by the majority of those who commented is more than depressing.

I have another comment on the tip of my tongue for a previous poster, but if I let it lose, I'll be banned from ehMac for life.... I'll simply say... _unbelievable._


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

"A man without compassion is a man without a soul." - SINC July 29, 2011.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

SINC said:


> "A man without compassion is a man without a soul." - SINC July 29, 2011.


Amen, Brother Sinc. Paix, mon ami.


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

"The woman who has 9 children should be able to feed them all." imnothng July 29, 2011


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

imnothng said:


> "The woman who has 9 children should be able to feed them all." imnothng July 29, 2011


http://www.bettermail.ca/m/646/43575/727f58af8351032faa1c3d66eaabb1c8


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

imnothng said:


> Maybe YOU Canadians, but not this one.





imnothng said:


> "The woman who has 9 children should be able to feed them all." imnothng July 29, 2011


imnothing, I defended your right to state your opinion earlier, but with these two posts it seems you are just trying to pick a fight. We know how you feel and why, there really isn't much point in further posts from you in this vein regarding this subject other than to wilfully disrupt and derail the thread. I think your energies are probably better spent elsewhere... unless your intention is to make enemies and p*ss people off, then by all means continue.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

imnothng said:


> "The woman who has 9 children should be able to feed them all." imnothng July 29, 2011


Troll much?


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

screature said:


> imnothing, I defended your right to state your opinion earlier, but with these two posts it seems you are just trying to pick a fight. We know how you feel and why, there really isn't much point in further posts from you in this vein regarding this subject other than to wilfully disrupt and derail the thread. I think your energies are probably better spent elsewhere... unless your intention is to make enemies and p*ss people off, then by all means continue.


I'm not here to "p*ss" anyone off. Sorry if I didn't realize someone else could start quoting himself on pointless quotes, but others couldn't. I will refrain from copying someone in the future.

If you take what I say as a derail then I hope you post about EVERY other time ANYONE else "derails" a post.

I appreciated you defending me (although I'm not a feeble woman who bears 9 children that can't feed them) but I really didn't need it. If it makes you feel better than please by all means continue.



MannyP Design said:


> Troll much?


No, not really.

I will continue to post here because I enjoy reading what the hypocrite's like to say. Keep on "donating" to a companies bottom line while making yourselves feel better about living the life you have with all the nice little toys in them. I'm sorry that I don't share the same point of view.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

imnothng said:


> I'm not here to "p*ss" anyone off. Sorry if I didn't realize someone else could start quoting himself on pointless quotes, but others couldn't. I will refrain from copying someone in the future.
> 
> If you take what I say as a derail then I hope you post about EVERY other time ANYONE else "derails" a post.
> 
> ...


The point that I was making is that you have stated your opinion and made it known, if all you are going to do is to re-iterate it in the same thread then it is simply provocative and adds nothing new, you are just "sticking it" to people with whom you disagree. Seems pretty combative and pointless... and yes this type of behaviour is in evidence in other threads here, but just because that is the case doesn't make it defensible behaviour and I have commented on such behaviour before, sometimes it is appreciated and other times it is not... 

It's a free internet and you can do as you please, at least until ehMax gives you a vacation or bans you, not saying that it will be a consequence or your posts but it is simply stating a fact that despite it being a free internet it is his forum and he makes the rules and enforces them as he sees fit. 

It is pretty evident that your posts here are p*ssing some people off and in some cases to the extreme, so as I said, if that is your intention continue posting by all means. It really doesn't matter that much to me one way or another, I'm just trying to be reasonable with you as some others here just seem to want to deride you. If you choose not to see it in the friendly/neutral manner in which I am trying to express it to you so be it, but there are those here to whom this thread does mean something and I think it is at the very least impolite to keep posting a sentiment which you have already expressed that you know is simply going to raise the ire of those to whom this thread does mean something. 

Just an opinion from one member to another.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

imnothng said:


> "The woman who has 9 children should be able to feed them all." imnothng July 29, 2011


Disgusting comment. A reflection of character indeed.


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Adrian. said:


> Disgusting comment. A reflection of character indeed.


Why's that? You think it's perfectly acceptable for someone who lives in a drought prone area with no government to have kids?

Yeah, you have any idea of my character from my stance on this one issue... :clap: lol, I wish you the best.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

imnothng said:


> Why's that? You think it's perfectly acceptable for someone who lives in a drought prone area with no government to have kids?
> 
> Yeah, you have any idea of my character from my stance on this one issue... :clap: lol, I wish you the best.


Despite the one book you have read, you clearly have a very shallow understanding of the issues at hand.

Perhaps you need to do more reading.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

imnothng said:


> Why's that? You think it's perfectly acceptable for someone who lives in a drought prone area with no government to have kids?
> 
> Yeah, you have any idea of my character from my stance on this one issue... :clap: lol, I wish you the best.


And yet you are free to paint broad strokes and call everyone else a hypocrite.

:lmao:


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Sonal said:


> Despite the one book you have read, you clearly have a very shallow understanding of the issues at hand.
> 
> Perhaps you need to do more reading.


Yes I do have a very shallow understanding of the issues at hand... Let's not talk about one simple issue first, but instead talk about only the large complicated ones. I don't "need" to do more reading because I'm not pretending that I'm trying to help them.



MannyP Design said:


> And yet you are free to paint broad strokes and call everyone else a hypocrite.
> 
> :lmao:


Only the ones that donate money to a problem that they are part of.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

imnothng said:


> Yes I do have a very shallow understanding of the issues at hand... Let's not talk about one simple issue first, but instead talk about only the large complicated ones. I don't "need" to do more reading because I'm not pretending that I'm trying to help them.
> 
> 
> 
> Only the ones that donate money to a problem that they are part of.


Obviously.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

Can't they just invade Somalia and take all the money from the Pirates to save the country?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Lawrence said:


> Can't they just invade Somalia and take all the money from the Pirates to save the country?


George..?


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

screature said:


> George..?


We've all done it for sure, But maybe it's time to do it again,
Canada obviously has a bad rep the last time.

But you'd think the U.N. would have stepped in by now,

Right?


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

imnothng said:


> Yes I do have a very shallow understanding of the issues at hand... Let's not talk about one simple issue first, but instead talk about only the large complicated ones. I don't "need" to do more reading because I'm not pretending that I'm trying to help them.


You do need to do more reading if you are going to throw down statements like the one that you just did, which in fact, IS a large complicated issue.

If you want to stick to the line of "Donating to NGOs does nothing to actually change anything" then no, you don't need to read more. 

But if you have a better suggestion for what the average Canadian can do to actually help the situation, I await your answer.

It's very easy, and IMO intellectually lazy, to be cynical about a situation. Finding actual answers is hard. If it makes you feel good to sit back and call out what's wrong with everything and in return do actually nothing, have at 'er, but frankly speaking it makes you no better than that which you criticize.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sonal said:


> You do need to do more reading if you are going to throw down statements like the one that you just did, which in fact, IS a large complicated issue.
> 
> If you want to stick to the line of "Donating to NGOs does nothing to actually change anything" then no, you don't need to read more.
> 
> ...


Excellent points, Sonal. Paix, mon ami.

Here is a place to start reading about the efforts of some NGOs that are Category A (this means that now more than 20% of their donations can go for anything other than aid for the intended group). 

The Humanitarian Coalition | HUMANITARIAN COALITION commends Canadian government for commitment to East Africa


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*And the situation turns even more desperate...*



> *DADAAB, Kenya* — Refugee Barwago Mohamud huddles silently beneath a few blankets stretched over sticks at night, fearing for her life after a neighbor was raped, and a naked woman who had been kidnapped and gang-raped for three days in front of her terrified children was delivered to the medical tent next door.
> 
> *Only a few hundred feet away stands a newly built camp with a police station, toilet blocks and schools. Neat thornbush fences in the camp separate residential areas for families to move into. But all the facilities are empty. The Kenyan government is refusing to open the new Ifo 2 facility as part of the world's biggest refugee camp, Dadaab, saying the desperate Somali refugees flowing into the country are a security risk.*


(Full story: Somali Women Fleeing Famine Preyed On By Rapists)


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Shocking...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

:-( *The first estimates of the dead are trickling in...*

*29,000 children under 5 dead in Somalian famine*



> A U.S. official says the famine in Somalia has killed more than 29,000 children under the age of 5.
> 
> The United Nations has said that tens of thousands of people have died in the Horn of Africa's drought and famine, but the U.S. estimate is the first precise death toll offered in the crisis.


(29,000 children under 5 dead in Somalian famine - Front - TheChronicleHerald.ca)


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> :-( *The first estimates of the dead are trickling in...*
> 
> *29,000 children under 5 dead in Somalian famine*
> 
> ...


Even sadder is that food and medical aid is there but the NGOs are unable to get to these areas due to rebel forces. :-(


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

A week later and the tragedy is getting even worse. 

Sent in another donation to the Humanitarian Coalition which will be matched dollar for dollar by the Candian government. This, in my opinion, is a good way for our government to use our tax dollars. Paix, mes amis.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I can barely handle the emotional impact of reading more about the famine... heartbreaking is a word one doesn't like to (have to) use too frequently.

Sadder still, I haven't seen any discussion amongst the big players regarding a refocusing of efforts to facilitate Somalia's stabilization. We're going to see this happen again... and again... and...


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

*Oxfam appeal match at Celtic park raises £300,000*

A drop in the ocean in terms of what's needed, but this was a fundraiser that got a lot of people donating.

The money won't be focussed solely on the problems in Somalia, but it will help.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*A photoblog from inside the Dadaab Refugee Camp:*



(Boston.com: Big Picture)


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*A Predictable Famine*



> The current food crisis in the Horn of Africa is a result of the problematic development model promoted by the World Bank.
> 
> Once again, the lives of millions of East Africans are threatened by famine. According to the United Nations, at the end of July 2011, some 12 million people across five countries in the Horn of Africa were in need of emergency assistance.
> 
> ...


(The Mark News)


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Yeah. I guess this may be a shock to some.


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