# Canadian Heroes



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Just saw a 1986 movie called "Boy in Blue" with Nicolas Cage and a very young and very "in flagrante delicto" Cynthia Dale  
Apparently the true story of a Canadian named Ned Hanlon who beat the world and won the girl.
Now I've never even heard of this sports hero who went undefeated in 200 single scull races - being challenged by rivals all over the world and beating every single challenge. That's quite a record.
The movie is worth a look if only for Ms. Dale







but it got me wondering how many other "unsung Canadian heroes" there are we never get to hear about.

I know many of the NASA " Journey to the Moon": types were exAvro   and there have been a number of medical heroes - some controversial like Dr. Norman Bethune and others universally recognised like Banting and Best..

But there must be many others .
Anyone??


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Interesting thread. I hope we get a lot of replies. Most times Canadians just blend into the American experience and we never realise that they are home-grown heroes from the great white north.

The only one I can think of right off the bat is Alexander Graham Bell. I have pointed out to so very many Americans that he was not one of theirs...he was one of _OURS_!

They claim him because he spent so much time in the USA and he is listed as one of their greatest inventors. But he was born in Edinburgh, Scotland and lived in Brampton Ont. when he was working on the telephone. Later on he was instrumental in Canada's first sucessful airplane flight. I believe he was a resident of the Maritimes at that point.

In my own lifetime I have witnessed several Canadian innovations that have changed the world I used to live and work in. The oilpatch is totally dominated by Canadian technical expertise. Directional drilling, almost all of the wellsite logging programs, 3 dimensional seismic and top drive (versus rotary table) drilling...just to mention a few... have revoloutionised the science of extracting hydrocarbons from difficult areas....and Canada has written the book on how to do it. Wherever you go in the world to drill, you will see "made in Canada" on virtually all of the high-tech gear and "Calgary" shows up on almost all of the popular computer programs. The equipment is almost always being tended by a displaced Canuck....or the technician involved recieved his training in Canada.  

The Americans would always ask about this ..."how come you guys are the ones that invent all this cool stuff?"

I always just played dumb and told them that it had something to do with the long cold winters. Nothing else to occupy our time, right?

Still, it certainly got me into a lot of places that I really didn't deserve to be, and bought me instant respect when they saw the Canadian flag I had on the shoulder of my coveralls. The Americans would automatically defer to you and ask your opinion on tech stuff. Millions of dollars were riding on this, and they wanted my opinion?!? They would listen to us and shut out their own experts pretty much every time. It was a good feeling.

In the world of oil drilling....we ROCK! Nobody else, anywhere on the planet, can claim our level of technical knowhow. And everybody knows it, too.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

James Naismith anyone? Where would we be without BasketBall?

What about all the hardworking canadian boys on every single NHL team past and present?

--PB


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

My vote goes to ALL Canadians that work hard each day to help keep/make Canada a multicultural, environmentally-safe country. And don't forget our teachers and nurses. They are true unsung heroes.


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

Let's not forget that great inventor, innovator and entrepreneur P.L. Robertson. He only created the very best device for connecting two or more bits of material together. The Robertson screw is a joy to use, can be driven in from any angle, and won't fall off the screwdriver. 

Anyone who has suffered stripped screw heads when using either a slot or a Phillips screw knows of what I speak.  One of the good things coming out of NAFTA is that our American cousins are finally exposed to this wonderful device, although, in typical fashion, they've taken to calling Robertson screws "square-heads" (a rather nasty epithet hurled at anglophone kids, by their francophone counterparts when I was growing up in Quebec City), but at least they now know what a decent screw is!


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Billy Bishop


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Now there's a little grenade toss...Billy Bishop ......perhaps "over sung hero" - lot's of controversy about this guy and his exploits.







not sure what to believe here.


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Louis Riel.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Better..we like Riel...reviled in his lifetime..revered by history. Good un


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Okay so Billy's on the outs eh  No worries, cause we have lots of pilots to pick from what about William Barker? And as I write this how about Fleming, inventor of time zones and didn't a Canadian come up with Java? Someone, help us out here.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah Fleming great pick  - that's a super story him trying to wrassle a very







world into a rational method of time keeping.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

How about Tommy Prince, the most decorated Canadian in the Second World War?


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

AAhh nice one Brainstrained!!  I should've had that one.


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

Sir Sam Steele, who "tamed" the Yukon and kept the Yankee riff raff at bay.

Or the guy that invented Voice Mail, working in Mississauga at the time. Now that is a Canadian Hero! ;+)


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

One of the two guys who made Java graduated from the University of Calgary, James Gosling (I thik thats his last name... Must go check) Can't remember off the top of my head.
Ummm and well another invention, hockey, lacrose, and other such great Canadian Pastimes... Well lacrose was made but we weren't Canada yet, so maybe it doesn't count...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

arrrrgh I haven't heard of ANY of these last few. Details, links please.
Told ya so .....unsung unheroes all over the place.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Actually give me some good links and I'll set up a Canadian Heroes section on the MacDoc site so the word will spread.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Here's links for Tommy Prince: www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=history/other/native/prince, www.vcn.bc.ca/~jeffrey1/prince2.htm and www.gov.mb.ca/chc/hrb/plaques/plaq0958.html


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

How about William Stephenson? He was the subject of the book... "A Man Called Intrepid".

This guy was definitely someone who should be counted as a true Canadian hero, and one that many of us have never heard of.

Born on the prairies in the late 1800's, he grew up without the benefit of electricty or running water and had to travel a great distance to school each day. He turned out to be a keen student and read everything he could get his hands on.

When the first World War began, he signed up with the Canadian Army and went overseas to join the battles on the fields of France. I believe he worked his way up to officer with battlefield promotions. At some point he was wounded quite badly in combat and sent back to Canada to convalesce. His wounds were so bad that he was discharged from the army and awarded several medals for heroism. This would have been quite enough for most farm boys...but not our William.

Having healed up enough to walk, he then went down to the recruiting office and talked his way into the brand new air corps and was accepted as a pilot-officer in training. Once he had mastered the rudimentary fighter aircraft of the day, he was again shipped off to Europe to rejoin the battle....this time in the air.

It's been a long time since I read the book, but it seems to me that he became an "Ace" and was again decorated for bravery in combat. It seems to me that he was again promoted in the field and ended up commanding his own squadron. He survived the war and stayed in England in order to continue his studies.(they had much better libraries in Merry Olde than they did in Saskatchewan at the time) 

Sometime between the wars (late 1920's) he managed to help work out the mathematics of coherent light and the LASER, and it was his notes that the early pioneers used to build the first working models...twenty years after he had figured out how to do it. Oh...yeah...he helped to design radio transmitters and was instrumental in setting up the BBC.

When the second World War started, Winston Churchill (who knew a great mind when he saw it) tagged him to head up the very first spy agency and I believe it was his coup that the Enigma machine was first spirited out of enemy territory. He was a key figure in the shadowy intelligence world and his code name was "Intrepid". Many of the operations that led to the defeat of Germany were based on the information that he and his agents gathered.

After the war he set up what was, and still is, considered to be the best spy agency in the world...Britain's MI5 and MI6. He also trained a young agent named Ian Fleming in the tradecraft of the intelligence world, and this young man later began writing fictional spy novels using William Stephenson as a template for his lead hero....a character who he re-named "James Bond", (after a writer of poular books about bird species...guess he liked the sound of the name)

Quite a guy, eh? A truly unknown Canadian hero.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

I'm going to add the story of Gerald Bull, a genius who had a very interesting life, not all of it exemplary.

Gerald was a plain-and-simple genius. He was the world's best artillery designer. About 10 years ago he was assasinated by the Mossad (Israili Secret Service) in Brussels, Belgium. Brussels is to arms dealing what Hollywood is to movies.

His troubles started during the early stages of the Vietnam War, when the US wanted to be able to shell Hanoi from outside Vietnam's then 12-mile limit. They hired Bull to increase the range of their naval guns; he did so in a matter of months and was able to increase the range well beyond the specification requested by the US Navy.

Later, a congressional review discovered that Bull was a Canadian, which made his access to the top-secret military documents of the US Navy a serious offence. In order to avoid the unpleasant necessity of putting Admirals in jail, they made him a US Citizen by act of Congress (a fairly common thing), and ended the whole thing there (or so it was thought).

It was discovered that some equipment made by Bull's company somehow ended up in South Africa, which was under an embargo by the US at the time. Bull, who was pragmatic but more than a little politically naieve, was eventually busted and sent to a US jail. Essentially he wanted money for reasearch and development, and he wanted to build stuff. He didn't care exactly how or where the money came from; to him the politics of the world was irrelevant.

His company (which was on both US and Canadian soil straddling the Maine/Quebec border, complete with it's own customs stations on either side of the border) was destroyed by his imprisonment.

This made Gerald very bitter, and he vowed to never again work for the US or the Canadian government which had abandoned him.

Gerald's main passion was the sending of satellites to space via the use of artillery rather than rockets, and he had very good success with it. Unfortunately, nobody wanted to build his "super gun" until Iraq came along (hence his shadowy death).

His 155mm artillery gun (developed in the early 1970's and manufactured in Austria) is still the most effective weapon of it's type in the world, nothing in the Soviet or Western armoury can match it. Like so many geniuses, he would often sketch out improvements on a cocktail napkin. He died with most of his knowledge in his head, and nobody since has been able to really match him.


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## Aurora (Sep 25, 2001)

To add to Macnutt's post on Stephenson, the WWII secret training camp for spys that he set up was called Camp X and located in the Oshawa area. I saw an article the other day that mentioned a Rememberance Day service that was held there to honour heroes that died behind enemy lines; unknown and un-named.


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## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

Dr. Frederick G. Banting was the co-discoverer of insulin in 1921. His discovery has saved many lives.

Here's a website about him and the other insulin researchers: <a href=http://www.discoveryofinsulin.com/Banting.htm>http://www.discoveryofinsulin.com/Banting.htm</a>


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yes Stephenson's an excellent choice. Intrepid was amarvelour story.

Gerald Bull certainly was a genious and visionary - not sure about hero







. He was certainly ill treated by the military establishment and "took his business elsewhere" as the phrase goes...to his ultimate regret.  

Banting of course but he is a well sung and unlike Billy Bishop - undisputed Canadian hero. It's the unknown or little known I'm curious about.
Anyone care to compile the list so far and some links?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Gerald Bull was indeed a genius in his own right...although we should note that almost all of his technical advances in artillery design were due to the fact that he came across a pile of good data that was surrendered by Germany after the First World War. This gave him a huge head start .

The German engineers had leaped way ahead of everyone else during that immobile war, and had built huge railway guns that could shell targets that were many miles away. The biggest was, I believe, called "the Paris Gun" and was used to terrorise the citizens of that poor city from a very long way off. Gerald Bull built all of his later accomplishments from this solid base of technical data.

When I was working in the Caribbean, I used to spend time in Barbados and the people there often mentioned the "Big Gun" that Gerald Bull had built on the northwest coast of that island to experiment with launching satellites into low earth orbit. Apparently it was fired once or twice, according to the locals.

Has anyone seen the docu-drama about Gerald Bull ? It's called "Doomsday Gun" and is pretty fascinating. There is no doubt whatsoever that Saddam was building a super gun with Bull's help.

Good thing he was stopped. It was not too far from completion.  

I agree with macdoc. Not a hero....but definitely a noteable Canadian who demonstrated pure genius in his chosen field.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I still contend that anyone might go into a local school, hospital, clinic and find many dedicated and hard working teachers, nurses, social workers and doctors. Granted, there may be inefficient slackers among this group, but I shall tend to stay positive in this post. All of whom have a story, but unsung is just that -- without formal recognition. To them I feel we own a debt of gratitude.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yes - Dr. G you are certainly right but societies as a whole like to have indentified heroes - say Gretsky for the kid playing hockey on his homemade rink.

I think one result of living beside the elephant is that we hear too much of American icons not Canadian ones.
I have no argument with those everyday that risk their life helping others in often the direst of circumstances.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Agreed, macdoc and Dr.G. The people who are keeping us running behind the scenes are rarely thought of and their stories are almost never heard....but we DO need identifiable heroes.

One thing I would like to add to macdoc's comment on "living beside the elephant" is that said elephant frequently absorbs our home-grown heroes and makes them into its own.

When I would explain to American co-workers that the actor who portrayed Ben Cartwright in "Bonanza"...the quintessential American frontier father figure...was actually a Jewish/Canadian, their jaws would drop and they would say "no way!" Same goes for several other famous Canadians who have moved south.

I'm not complaining about it or anything....I just wanted to make a note of it since we were talking about Canadian heroes. 

Most people are pretty well aware of these famous figures, but the "unsung" part could be when we find out that they are actually Canadians, not Americans.


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Our hero's move south simpley because Canadians do not support Canadians. Ask Jim Carry, Mike Myers.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macnutt, I mentioned to someone in Atlanta that Lorne Greene was both Jewish and Canadian. The person replied that he didn't look Jewish and "wasn't he born on the Ponderosa?" Rick Mercer would have had a ball talking to THIS American. Go figure?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

When I was drilling in North Dakota I used to tune into a Canadian TV station and watch "Talking to Americans" on "This Hour has 22 minutes". I watched it with several American co-workers at wellsite and they just fell off their chairs laughing. The famous "celebrity headlock" had them rolling in the aisles. 









I just wish that some of the people up here who spend so much time demonizing the US could have seen these Americans laughing _at_ themselves!  

I never came across even one single American citizen who was insulted by any of this. They thought it was hilarious, and wanted to see more.

I wonder if the tables were turned, and an American comedian came up here to make fun of our own stupidity or lack of knowledge....would there not be a huge outcry? Would we not be terribly insulted? Some of us would be, that's for sure.

Makes you think,eh?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

BTW- Timmer....I think if you were to ask Jim Carey, Mike Meyers, or for that matter, Wayne Gretzky or even Michael J Fox...you would find that they didn't move south because we don't support them up here.

They did it because of the huge _taxes_ we inflict upon our best earners in this country. They are the highest in the western world. We regularly chase away our best and brightest with this ruinous taxation...just as Britain did during their unfortunate flirtation with socialism in the sixties. Back then, the Beatles, Rolling Stones etc. fled that country en masse, and were known as "tax exiles". Other countries got a chunk of their income because they weren't as greedy. Britain got 70% of NOTHING instead of twenty-five per cent of a very large income.

Thatcher put an end to that nonsense, and we need to do the same. Britain is in far better shape today than it was during that period. A country needs to reward it's top earners and encourage them to stay at home and spread the cash around a bit. Not chase them out and punish them for making big coin.

The brain drain is real. We need to put a stop to it.


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Actually, Mr. Carey and Myers didn't make their fortunes in this country so taxes don't really apply here. They were nobodys in Canada and again, it was America who made them known to everyone including us. This a shame! I am Canadian entertainer my friend and I know of what I speak. I have traveled the same roads as Jim Carey did years ago. And he an I share one common thread. We've both been shat on by our Canadian brothers and sisters whether in the audience or in parliment for that matter. As for taxes, tell me about it. As a side bar note I am watching the Grey cup right now and Shania (spelling?) Twain is rockin' the half time show. Did either of us know who she was until Nashville came into her life? I know, me neither. The bottom line is I have worked hard for nearly ten years on the road in this country and I gotta tell you not one decent opportunity has come my way until America showed up at my proverbial door. Now my new setback, I love Canada but honestly, when my days were dark and my stomach empty I was told I couldn't even collect a welfare check let alone a government grant! I was told to get a job! That's support? One thing is for certain, A. tough times never last but tough people do B. you bet Canadians are the best entertainers around because its next to impossible to succeed here.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Points taken. I wonder if you will reside in Canada or the USA when you make it big. And I also wonder if....when your paychecks are well into the seven figure range...you will be willing to surrender more than half of that amount to the Canadian government each year. The same government that told you to "get a job" instead of supporting you.

It doesn't matter where you make your cash. If it is declareable income then you pay taxes on it to the country that you reside in. (there is a complex formula for this, but that is essentially how it works)

Gretsky made it big in Canada, not the US....he has not been as good a player since he left...but he still resides in the USA. Even though he is a staunch and patriotic Canadian. Ask yourself why.

It just doesn't make economic sense to pay millions of dollars out to the Canadian government when most other countries would be quite happy with half that much. Big companies often locate their head offices and factories in the most tax-friendly areas as well. 

BTW-speaking of not supporting Canadian talent....did you know that Sheila Copps and her Heritage Ministry (which is responsible for Canadian Olympic sports) spent almost TWICE as much money on fancy hotel suites and stylish Roots clothing for their own government officials during the Salt Lake winter Olympics as they did to support ALL of the althletes for the whole year? What a joke.

Your tax dollars at work. No wonder Gretzky and all the others decided to reside elsewhere.


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Great points Macnut! I have wondered a few of these things myself, the seven figure question that is. Certainly time for some rule chages in this country.   We could likely have a fantastic chat about all that is Canadian something tells me. And yes, I will most certainly take exception to paying over 50% to a gov the I feel has turned there back to me fully. 
Chat with you agian sometime soon I hope, it's late and I only came back tonight to see if you had replied. Till we chat again.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

The maximum Federal Tax rate in Canada is lower than that of the US. The biggest factor affecting Income Taxes here and there is the Provincial/State Tax rate (can be as low as zero if you live in Texas) and the deductions you can avail yourself of.

State taxes vary so greatly (much more than Provincial rates) that in general we compare average rates rather than specifics. There are plenty of specific situations where you would pay more in the US and plenty where you would pay less.

For example, nearly any jurisdiction can tax in the US (If you live in the city of New York, you pay more taxes than residents elsewhere in the state) while in Canada its Provinces/Feds only. City sales and yes, income taxes are never included in the comparisons you see.

Many states (including California) require you to pay an annual "sales tax" on everything you own (household furniture, the boat, etc). For enforcement, they subpoena your insurance records.

Wealthy Americans have large, expensive homes because Mortgage Payments are tax deductable while some wealthy Canadians stay here because Dividend Income is only taxed once (at the Corporation) while in the US they are taxed twice (by the Corporation and again on your personal return). Rules for retirement income are very different, and all inherentances are taxed in the US. It depends on your personal situation and income mix which is better in the end.

As for Corporate Tax, Canada has a combined Fed/Prov rate that is approx 40% but few companies actually pay it (80% of Canadian Corporations have not paid any Income Tax in any of the last 5 years). However, foreign corporate income (say, from GM Canada) is taxed much less than domestic income in the 'states. [This is under revision, due to a sucessful WTO challenge by the EU, but it's unlikely to change much]. Again, it's all about deductions.

It's your Citizenship and where you earned your money, not where you live, which determines to whom you pay your taxes. A Tax Treaty exists, so that a dollar paid to one nation is deducted from your tax bill in the other. You must live outside Canada (or the US) for a few years before you can stop paying taxes to that nation, no matter how or where you earn it.

Shania lives in Switzerland, where she pays more income tax than she would in Canada or the US. In fact, the US is the only industrialized nation with a lower overall tax rate than Canada.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Hmmm...I'm stepping onto very thin ice here when I disagree with GordGuide on _any_ subject...however....I have spent a great deal of time living and working in the USA and was fortunate to earn more than most airline pilots (and even some doctors or dentists) during that time. The "tax thing" became a very real consideration, and most of us employed an expert to advise us on this subject. 

The general consensus among all of us displaced Canadians was that the USA grabbed about 25% and Canada wanted upwards of 50% after the smoke cleared and all the bodies were counted. My boss at Continental Laboratories in Calgary often compalined that he was paying "more than HALF of all his income to the Canadian government" (He would often follow that with a lot of unprintable comments about the Federal Liberals that I won't bother to share with you here)

I can't think of anyone out of the several hundred Canadians I worked with who didn't have some kind of system in place to avoid the ruinous Canadian tax rates. Same goes for most of the Hollywood types I know out here on Salt Spring. They are very careful not to show up on the "tax radar" because Canada would pick them bare.

I was aware that Shania lives in Switzerland....and I also know that there are a disporportionate amount of the super rich living there. 

You don't suppose that Switzerland has some sort of special status set up to attract the wealthy do you? They probably realize....as do most other THINKING governments....that it is better to attract the wealthy than chase them away.

Think about it.

If Canada had, as you say, the second lowest tax rates among all of the industrialised nations...then we should be knee-deep in rich people about now.

After all, Canada is well known as a prime place to live. Low crime rates, polite people, clean cities and a UN rating that is second to none in "quality of life". Add "low tax rates" or even "second lowest tax rates" to that formula and they would be beating down the gates to get in!

So why do the rich continue to flee from Canada? Why do recently rich Canadians always seem to head south to "avoid high taxation". And why did ALL of the tax advisers I employed...both American and Canadian, tell me "you DON'T want to pay Canadian taxes!"

This was, by the way, when I was coming from Alberta....a place that currently has the lowest Provincial income taxes.

I know what it says on paper, GordGuide. I just think that the reality is quite different. 

Certainly every Canadian I ever met who was earning big coin outside of Canada thought that this was so. 

Any comments?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

The way I understand it, at lower income levels (read: retail slave), candian taxes are better. But at higher income levels (read: oil patch better-than-a-doctor-wages) american taxes are better. Not that any taxes are good.

But considerin that the systems of taxation are quite different as to what is taxed and what is not, You can;t deny that there are advantags to living in either country.

As to the brain drain, for entertainers, instead of "Avoiding taxes", I always thought that it was the S***-tons more cash available to be made let alone be taxed on, the audience 10 times the size. That is of course, you assume that all they are interested in is money.

--PB

PS>..Oh, and the Great One lives in New York for a coupe reasons, but mostly that in the last few years of his career he moved quite a bit, and his family had just enough time to get established there (two or three kids in school and all that jazz), and in his own words, it would be a little unfair to move them again when he really didn;t need to. Not saying that teh tax issue isn't a part of it, but it is not the sole reason.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

One of the reasons Canadians don't move back to Canada after living in the US for a period is the same reason why Americans can't move to Wyoming after making the big bucks in Hollywood or Silicon Valley. Someone like John Candy would be paying tax to the US for a very long time after he left the country. The Tax Treaty gives some relief, but it can't be carried from year-to-year.

Because of the Mortgage Interest deduction, if you relocate you must purchase a home equal to the value of the one you sell, or you may find the IRS clawing back all those mortgage deductions. This gets more difficult if you move from, say San Mateo (in Silicon Valley, near SF, home to Connectix), where a tiny bungalow on a tiny lot is a half million dollars. You may find the only suitable property is lavish and expensive to maintain; or you may end up buying a huge ranch in Montana as many Hollywood stars like to, because there aren't suitably expensive homes in Billings. It also plays a role when a sports hero is traded to a small-market US team, and can be difficult for someone like John Avery (Eskimos running back) who has his principal residence in the US but works in Canada.

Capital Gains on your principal residence is fully taxable in the US and all Capital Gains (stock options, etc) are taxed at double the rate they are in Canada.

Once you make the move to LA it is very difficult to move anywhere less expensive; the only people who can pull it off are those like Ivana Trump who moved to Canada after her divorce because the property tax penalties were essentially negated by her Divorce Settlement.

Essentially, this is how apparently wealthy entertainers sometimes find themselves in the news, owning millions to the IRS. It's not easy to manage all the implications of a reduction in income without paying taxes for years that you thought were fully paid up.

This is just one example, some people find US tax laws very favorable. It's nearly impossible to make any general observations.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

To quote Macnutt, 
"When I was drilling in North Dakota I used to tune into a Canadian TV station and watch "Talking to Americans" on "This Hour has 22 minutes". I watched it with several American co-workers at wellsite and they just fell off their chairs laughing. The famous "celebrity headlock" had them rolling in the aisles."

Rick Mercer has left the original cast of This Hour. However, when he was there, all four of the cast were from St. John's. Many Canadians do not know this little know fact. It's true!

This has been a Newfoundland and Labrador Moment brought to you by the Ministry of Misinformation, Technology, Tourism and Road Repair.


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## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

Perhaps, this search is difficult because "heroes" in some senses no longer exist except as fictious creations. The hero is a literal and social fiction. Indeed, a hero in the classical sense of the term is ambiguously brave and foolish. Courageous and ignorant. They enthrall us with their accomplishments and are made "real" by their human flaws. Then again maybe I'm thinking too much of Virgil in this regard.

What I suggest is that perhaps heroes can only exist after the fact and as our cynical consumer society keeps developing as it has, the possibility of heroes fades (for better or for worse).

Thoughts? Comments?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

One more thing I should say here....

We seem to have a lot of people in Canada who tend to dump on our southern neighbors. The Americans are not, in my humble opinion, a true enemy. They are a true friend, in every sense of the word. Despite all of the problems we may seem to have with our mutual relationship, I am toatally confident that they would rush to help us in any sort of a crisis. We would do the same for them.

Just as we have both done numerous times in the past.  

Right now, there is only one major Superpower on the planet. Ask yourself this question.....

If it is not going to be the USA, then who would you prefer it to be?

China? India? Japan? Germany?

Wonder what the world would look like if one of these countries was the dominant power right now? Do you suppose we'd have the same sort of rights and freedoms? Think about it for a moment or two before you answer this question.

It's just human nature to hate the hall monitor, the strongest guy on the block, or the "big man on campus"....or the world's only Superpower. 

In Asia, everybody hates the Japanese for the very same reasons. They are the "big guy on the block" in that particular area.

Just be glad that, in our particular epoch, the United States is ruling the roost. If it were one of the other countries I mentioned above....then we would be living in a totally different world, trust me. A world that we would not like very much, compared to this one.

Some people would like to compare the USA with ancient Rome. Probably because, in all of human history, no other political entity has ever had such an effect on the world. There are some similarities....but there is one glaring difference. It is this:

At no time during Rome's domination of the world did the average Roman citizen have a vote in what their country was doing. Certainly none of the countries they conquered were ever given back to the people who lived in them, and none were ever left in better shape than before Rome invaded.

Compare this to what America stands for and what they have done with all of the countries that they have "conquered" in the last fifty years.

ALL citizens of the United States have an equal say in what their country does, and what direction the country is going. None of their leaders is allowed to hang on for two or three decades as is common in other countries (like Canada). This prevents some of the large-scale corruption that we see in countries that allow their leaders linger in power forever (like Canada). Freedom of speech and freedom of association are guaranteed in their Constitution. They also go out of their way to allow other religions and other ways of thinking a free and clear voice. Some countries would spend time and money to stamp out a dissenting view of the world. Not the Americans. They spend time and money to SUPPORT other viewpoints and religions. The citizens of America demand this....and they are the ones who determine how that country conducts itself. Most modern democratic countries pattern their Constitutions on the one that has governed the USA for more than two hundred years. Because it WORKS. And because it is FAIR!

Also....each of the countries the United States has "conquered" in the last half-century has had democracy and prosperity inflicted upon them. None of these countries is currently administered or run by the United States. There are no American soldiers on streetcorners in Tokyo or Berlin. The USA is the biggest economy in the world....the two countries they defeated in the last big war are now the second and third largest economies in the world. Even though they were both totally destroyed by the USA at the end of the last war. They were completely devastated by the conflict that they had instigated. One of them was even nuked...TWICE! 

The US picked them up, dusted them off and set them on their way. Then they made them rich by trading with them. Ask yourself if the Soviets, or the Romans or the Carthaginians or anyone else, would have done this. Not Likely. 

An interesting way to treat former enemies who had attacked them witout real provocation...don't you think?

What does this tell you about the true intentions of the Americans? Are they bloodthirsty conquerors...or are they interested in making over the world into their own fair and free democratic model?

Think about all of this before any of you start dumping on the "imperialistic Americans". We would be a lot worse off if some other country was running the show right now. A LOT worse off!

In fact....we would probably not be free to have this conversation at all. Like em or not, we could all be FAR worse off than we are right now, if it weren't for the USA.

They are very GOOD friends of ours....and deserve to be treated as such.

And...whatever we may think about their leaders...good manners should prevent any of us from calling them "morons". 

Especially when our own corrupt leaders could easily fall into that category....by any measure of the term.

Heck...even if we THINK that they are "morons", good Canadian manners should serve to prevent us from actually SAYING that in public. 

Trouble is...this particular government has been in power so long that they have lost sight of what is real, what the Canadian people really want....and most importantly....what is considered good manners in public. They need to be replaced ASAP!

Think about it.

Think about it especially when you are asked to vote in the next Federal Election.


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Fantastic Macnutt!!!  

To further your point of being knee deep in millionaires perhaps there is more to it then taxes? Perhaps poor bank rates has something to do with this? I am not sure, maybe someone here can speak more from experience? All I know about this last point I have made is everyone I know with money has it in another country. As I mentioned in an earlier thread things are changing for me. This tax issue is bigger then ever before. And I promise you I am doing my very best to play my cards right on this one. gordguide has a point, perhaps this is an indevidual thing. Maybe I should get good at picking my accountant rather then my brains apart trying to get this one right


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Timmer, I am confident that you will be in a position to advise us on this question at some point. When you are making obscene amounts of money then you need to come back here and tell us all what you did and why.

I have a lot of "Hollywood" friends here on Salt Spring and NONE of them want to be subject to Canadian taxes. 


I wonder why that is?

Do you suppose that Canada is a bit greedy? Do you also suppose that they spend this tax revenue on silly programs or....perish the thought...line their own pockets with it? Jean Cretien is reported to be one of the richest men in Canada....on a salary of 150 grand per year. That's less than I used to make in the oilpatch. Go figure.

It's high time we put an end to all of this corruption and nonsense. Dump the Federal Liberals in the next election, if you want to see a real change.

Don't....and we will see ther same old sh*t in a different pile.

\


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Well thanks for the vote of confidence. Something I have learned about that word is its about as fleeting as taxes at times.  More then a 150 grand on the patches eh? Holy sh$&







Thats good coin, can't emagine the pogey check on that eh  Don't get me wrong here my friend I made a lot of friends out in Alberta who were of your trade/skill and I know exactly how hard that money is to earn.  As I said before about the accounting thing, I would prefer to study this myself, I try and do with everything else thus not having to rely on someone for such an answer. Funny, since I have found this to be a concern you would be surprised how many people can't help me. Everyone talks big about taxes and such and then when it gets right down to it they really can't answer my questions.  Anyway, it's all part of the big picture I guess. It's late and my third wind has arrived even though I have an early day tomorrow I will pound through a few more things on my list of things to get done.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

If anyone is interested, i've included a link to a US Federal 1040 tax "quick estimator". Fill in your income (remember to use that Mac calculator and convert at 0.65x your C$ figures) and see how it compares to your Federal return of 2001.

The result won't include State/Provincial taxes, doesn't account for what you pay extra for in the US (for example, garbage collection cost my former boss US$ 55 a month in Minneapolis; the city doesn't have any garbage collectors), and is very crude as far as deductions go, but it will give you an idea.

Remember to convert the result at 1.55x US for a comparable Canadian dollar figure. Also, keep in mind that if you are married or common-law, you are required to file jointly (include your spouse's income on one return).

1040.com
Select "Quick Esitmator" from the menu at the left.

If you're really adventurous, you can d/l a PDF of an entire return and associated forms, and do your taxes just like you lived in Texas (ie no state taxes).


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Gee Macnutt, in one post you note the increasing number of discussions in this thread, and then immediately add yet another point to be argued.

Make up your mind.  

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that your tax argument seems based solely on the premise that high-income earners gravitate to the lowest tax regime. Gordguide, a worthy alternative to any encyclopedia, says Canada's federal tax rate is lower than the U.S.'s and that provincial and state tax rates skew any comparisons. But you find that hard to believe as Canada is not knee-deep in multi-millionaries.

Perhaps the real issue here is how much a role taxes really play in deciding where people chose to live. If taxes are the sole or even the major criteria, why do we have any rich people in Canada? Why in the world wouldn't they leave here? But not for the U.S., American millionaries shouldn't even consider staying there. There are many low- or no-income tax regimes in the world, those rich people should all be living in a Caribbean or South Pacfic island paradise, a small European principality, or an underdeveloped African nation.

Well, let's see, there's general quality of life, business/work and educational opportunities, family considerations, political situations, health-care system, perhaps family heritage, and other factors that tend to create a shortlist.

I suspect that Canada and the United States would be on most people's shortlist. But I don't believe for a moment the U.S. would top Canada all the time or by a significantly greater proportion. Principly because those other considerations are often as important or more important than tax rates.

Frankly, the tax argument is too weak to stand on its own.

A final point, I'm not a fan of Jean Chretien, haven't voted for him in 10 years, and obviously, never will. But I have to challenge you on your "Jean Chretien is reported to be one of the richest men in Canada . . . on a salary of 150 grand a year" comment. 

I'd like your source on this, and if it's accurate, I'd like to know who has been managing the blind trust all of Chretien's assets have been in for the last 10 years, because I want that person to manage my assets. . . a seven-year-old car and a bank account regularly in overdraft.


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## Jordan (Jul 20, 2002)

Good conversation, I'm anti-american, that's all I have to say about that.
But my Canadian heroes are Big Bear http://www.alittlehistory.com/NativeRb.htm 
David Suzuki http://www.sacredbalance.com/web/portal/ http://cbc.ca/natureofthings/ http://www.davidsuzuki.org/ 
He's made me think twice about the way I live in this world.


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Great points Brainstrained.  

I don't think taxes start coming into play as to where people live until they gotta pay them.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I've got a streak of the anit-Yank myself. Like the people not so sure about the culture.








Big Bear's a good pick - 
Suzuki too...our own Ralph Nader - hope he does as well as Nader did. The auto industry was never the same after Nader got through with it. Perhaps Suzuki will set the pace for change in consumption and energy use policies.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

This thread seems to have morphed into two or three different subjects. We have "Canadian Heroes" and "Canadian Taxation vs American taxation", plus a couple of others.

Perhaps we can resolve a few of these things at this juncture. Here is my proposition for doing this:

We now have almost one thousand members here at ehMac. Surely _some_ of these people have had some sort of experience with Canadian tax rates at both the extreme high end and the low end. 

Or some of us certainly _will_ have, fairly soon. Please share these experiences with us all. I maintain that Canadian taxes( at the high end) are radical enough to chase away many of the best and brightest. Others here have stated that we have the second lowest taxation rates in all of the industrialised nations. The facts tend to refute this.

I believe that, if this were true....we would be knee-deep in multi-millionaires by this time. Instead we seem to be losing rich people faster than we can create them, so the "low taxation rates" would not appear to be a reality.

I have had some experience in paying the ridiculously high tax rates in Canada. So have a lot of my friends. I say that they chase the best and brightest out of this country.

Prove me wrong and I will admit it in a heartbeat. 

Prove me right and you will recieve nothing more than a smiley from me.  

Plus....you will be able to revel yourself in the happy knowledge that you have been able to help educate the good citizens of ehMac in the simple realities of this grand world we live in.  

No small feat when you consider the forces that conspire to mislead all of us each day on the basic issues.  

C'mon people....have at it! What do you _really_ know about tax rates in Canada versus the rest of the world?  

I'm listening....and I suspect that several others are as well.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

By the way Macnutt, if you really want an overlooked issue that all Canadians should be angry about (here I go starting another topic), try Employment Insurance premiums.  

The program has been raking in billions in surpluses annually for years. In fact, a significant portion of Ottawa's annual budget surplus is due to EI contributions from workers and especially businesses.

There's enough money there that the benefits could be significantly improved and still allow a decent size cut in premiums for workers and companies, thus giving everyone something to be happy about.

The Liberals have little cover to hide on this one, especially as the unneeded premiums are accurately described as job killers for business, and not much has been done to restore the benefits the Grits cut when they came to power. The money is just goes to general revenue, not even a rainy day reserve for EI.

Tell your Alliance chums to forget the tax rate, it's a weak argument on a complex issue. 

Blast the government on EI premiums!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Gordguide, I used the 1040 quickform URL and figured out what I would owe on my salary here in Canada (converted to US dollars) and living in either NYC (which has a New York State and New York City income tax) or living in Georgia (where I lived just before I came to Canada). Granted, we have about the highest tax rate here in Newfoundland, but I would be paying far less in the US than here. Of course, the major illnesses at birth to my daughter, and the various eye surgeries I have had, would have bankrupted me in the US, even with private health insurance (which I had at the University of Georgia).


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## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

Well, dragging this thread, kicking a screaming back on the original topic...

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Terry Fox. Although not really an unknown, I've noticed many have forgotten his affect on this country many, many years back.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah gents how about a new tax topic. Gettin


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

Yeah no doubt this one got out of habd eh??!!







 Anyway I must agree, Terry Fox how did we miss that one?  GREAT suggestion Strongblade!


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Well, Dr G, that's why I posted it. For the record, in my case it was a push.

Back on topic, how about:
Saskatonians Gordie Howe and Joni Mitchell;
with honorable mention to Keiffer Sutherland (Donald married the daughter of former Sask. Premier Tommy Douglas, whom he met filming a movie in town, so Keiffer is the grandson of the father of medicare);

Half the guys from Steppenwolf
everybody from The Band except Levon Helm
Neil Diamond & Paul Anka
Half of the network news anchors in America
Rush, Sweeny Todd (including former band member Bryan Adams)
Neil Young


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## timmer (Aug 10, 2002)

For that matter what about The Guess Who?


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## lotus (Jun 29, 2002)

How about Norman Jewison, he has been an inspiration and mentor for many a young Canadian film makers.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Volunteers in food banks, teacher-aide volunteers, Meals on Wheel volunteers, preschool teachers, nurses and nurses aides......all deserve our special thanks. Add to this volunteer fire crews, people who protect our environment, people who read to the elderly and all those who dig down deep when they pass a Salvation Army kettle.


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## rhino (Jul 10, 2002)

Back to the Heroes thread...May I add all these things Canadian? So, what do Canadians have to be proud of? 

Smarties, Crispy Crunch & Coffee Crisp. 

The size of our footballs fields and one less Down. 

Baseball is Canadian. 

Lacrosse is Canadian. 

Hockey is Canadian. 

Basketball is Canadian. 

Apple pie is Canadian. 

Mr. Dress-up kicks Mr. Rogers ass. 

Tim Hortons kicks Dunkin' Donuts ass. 
  

In the war of 1812, started by America, Canadians pushed the Americans back...past their 'White House'. Then we burned it... and most of Washington, under the command of William Lyon McKenzie who was insane and hammered all the time. We got bored because they ran away, so we came home and partied ... Go figure... 

Canada has the largest French population that never surrendered to Germany. 

We have the largest English population that never ever surrendered or withdrew during any war to anyone, anywhere. 
  

Our civil war was a bar fight that lasted a little over an hour. 

The only person who was arrested in our civil war was an American mercenary, who slept in and missed the whole thing...but showed up just in time to get caught. 

We knew plaid was cool far before Seattle caught on. 

The Hudsons Bay Company once owned over 10% of the earth's surface and is still around as the worlds oldest company. 

The average dog sled team can kill and devour a full grown human in under 3 minutes. 

We still know what to do with all the parts of a buffalo. 

We don't marry our kin-folk. 

We invented ski-doos, jet-skis, velcro, zippers, insulin, penicillin, zambonis, the telephone and short wave radios that save countless lives each year. 

We ALL have frozen our tongues to something metal and lived to tell about it. 

BUT MOST IMPORTANT! 

....the handles on our beer cases are big enough to fit your hands with mitts on. 

Oh Canada!!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Love it....made me


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Very cool Rhino!  

But...unless I'm mistaken here...velcro was invented by a Swiss guy and the Zipper came from an American of Jewish origin. The shortwave radio was invented by an Italian guy, but demonstrated here first (because the distance between NewfoundLand and Ireland is the shortest direct route across the Atlantic.)

If you think that "we don't marry our kinfolk" then you have never been to a Newfoundland outport, or the High Arctic. I am not sure I want to know how you found out that a dog team can devour a human being in three minutes. Yowsa!

Also...I have never frozen my tongue to anything metal because, around these parts, the only frozen metal you are likely to encounter is in your kitchen freezer.  

But I did enjoy your list!


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Velcro was invented here for sure. I he came here from [insert european country of origin here] as a child. Or something like that. We learned it back in grade 9, but I dont remember.

I am not sure about the zipper guy.

--PB


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

He may have perfected it here, but the Swiss scientist who first came up with the idea discovered it when he was back home sitting on a hillside. He was wearing VElvet pants and sitting on a CROcus. He noticed they stuck to each other but could be peeled apart. Hence...VEL CRO.

PB, you should know better than to trust teachers or textbooks. Textbooks are chock full of errors and teachers are often chock full of bullsh*t. Find out for yourself.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

I hate to say this,  -- but the Zamboni is not a Canadian invention.  

It was invented in the 1940s by a southern Californian mechanic whose family was in the refrigeration business.

Yes, Zamboni has a plant in Canada, as well as the U.S., and I believe a Canadian branch of the family runs the Canadian operation.

But the first Zamboni was made for a California skating rink.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ah the quiet tinkling of shattered myths


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