# Leopard to slip to October



## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

*Leopard Delayed until October*

Apple released this statement which says the iPhone will be on time and has passed certification tests but they had to borrow resources from the Leopard Development Team.


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## Brian Scully (Jan 23, 2001)

Apple announced today that 10.5 will not ship until Oct 2007 due to staff being transfered to iPhone software 

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070412/sfth056.html?.v=87

Bummer


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

wowsers. 

that clears one waiting obstacle for me.

guess i'm buying my mac pro next week then 

Cheers,
Keebler


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

That explains why we haven't heard anything about the "secret features"

I guess WWDC will reveal those


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

Stupid phone. 

Haha, well... I guess it's probably the best.. better than releasing Leopard too early.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Crap! I wonder if iLife will get bumped as well?? I've been eagerly awaiting a revision to that. :-(


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

I'm thinking that iLife probably has its own dedicated team.. so, you could still be in luck.  And, me too.. cause.. now I can span the purchases .


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

That's a bummer.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

I guess they are trying to get people buying again instead of holding of. I wonder if this means an imac revision is coming sooner rather than later??


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

I think we'll see that iLife and iWork are also delayed, due to the new versions requiring 10.5.

I expect that Apple will come up with a new naming scheme for these suites, because naming something with the year it comes out when you release it in October will invite comparisons with MS.

This is definitely a setback.


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

Does this change speculation of what the Apple Event will be on Sunday?


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## Garry (Jan 27, 2002)

Macaholic said:


> Crap! I wonder if iLife will get bumped as well?? I've been eagerly awaiting a revision to that. :-(


What's wrong with the version of iLife out now? What confirmed feature will the next version have that you can't live without?


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## Garry (Jan 27, 2002)

Oakbridge said:


> Does this change speculation of what the Apple Event will be on Sunday?


I don't think so. It depends how much Final Cut Studio is linked to Leopard tho'.


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## kevs~just kevs (Mar 21, 2005)

hmmm me thinks this might be a good opportunity to buy some AAPL! Stock's gone down a few % already... And you know it's going to go back up at WWDC in a couple months with the iPhone and all the Leopard details being released.


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

NNNNNNoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## Kirtland (Aug 18, 2002)

Ouch  
I hope this doesn't affect iLife and iWork '07 release as well.


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## kevs~just kevs (Mar 21, 2005)

already a thread here: http://www.ehmac.ca/anything-mac/51373-leopard-slip-october.html


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## definetheline (Mar 10, 2007)

Oakbridge said:


> Does this change speculation of what the Apple Event will be on Sunday?


This guarantees MBPs at NAB....


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

definetheline said:


> This guarantees MBPs at NAB....


 



apple.com said:


> Apple Statement
> iPhone has already passed several of its required certification tests and is on schedule to ship in late June as planned. We can’t wait until customers get their hands (and fingers) on it and experience what a revolutionary and magical product it is. However, iPhone contains the most sophisticated software ever shipped on a mobile device, and finishing it on time has not come without a price — we had to borrow some key software engineering and QA resources from our Mac OS X team, and as a result we will not be able to release Leopard at our Worldwide Developers Conference in early June as planned. While Leopard's features will be complete by then, we cannot deliver the quality release that we and our customers expect from us. We now plan to show our developers a near final version of Leopard at the conference, give them a beta copy to take home so they can do their final testing, and ship Leopard in October. We think it will be well worth the wait. Life often presents tradeoffs, and in this case we're sure we've made the right ones. (Apr 12, 2007)


 Oh well, Tiger's still an awesome operating system as it is! I guess for Steve Jobs it was deciding between getting a great whole new product out or getting a better version of an already great operating system out.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

I would like imovie to add a second layer of video so that more creative effects are possible.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Garry said:


> What's wrong with the version of iLife out now? What confirmed feature will the next version have that you can't live without?


Nothing, really. As my avatar suggests, I LOVE iLife. The thing is that I have just come to look forward to new features and new templates. The iMovie animated themes are a little thin -- gourgeous, but thin. I did buy one 3rd party iMovie theme (I think this might be the only resource for 3rd party themes), but I'm jonsin' for more templates and features! :love2:


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Ooooh, that sucks. 

I really, really hope that the new version of Keynote is released earlier rather than later... I'm running up against some barriers (notably, path-based animation) that I'm hoping will be included in the next update.

10.5 would have been trés cool.... shame. Maybe Steve's feeling charitable, and wants to give Vista a fighting chance.... 

M


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## kertesd (Apr 11, 2007)

Dam. I was going to wait 2 months b4 i buy my FIRST macbook .(waiting for lep...i have a pc) now its commin out in october. I cant wait 5 months!!! now im gonna buy a new macbook, and when lep comes out they will prob have a new verson of the macbook too :''''''(


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

CubaMark said:


> Maybe Steve's feeling charitable, and wants to give Vista a fighting chance....
> 
> M


I think it's more of an opportunity lost for Apple to gain market and mindshare. 

But I'm guessing the priorities have changed. The shift from Apple Computer to Apple Inc. may signal where they think the big money is. I suppose 10 million iPhones wins out over a few million Leopard upgrades.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

HowEver said:


> And Macaholic, aren't you supposed to be _working_? : )


Er... yeah.  But this is just a quick post. Like, what could go wrong in here that would consume my tme...?  Really! And besides, I can stop whenever I want to. Really.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I think this is MUCH better - get teh hardare stable then do the OS when it's really ready - anyone remember the Tiger debacle - introduce OS AND machines that would only boot Tiger - how stupid is that.

This way CS et al will be stable onTiger and well tested on Leopard. :clap: - got my vote.


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## kertesd (Apr 11, 2007)

16GB Nanos, Touchscreen iPods and More By September, Says Citigroup - Gizmodo
"OSX Leopard release will happen on June 11 and will mean $50 to $75 million extra dollars of revenue per quarter"


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## Garry (Jan 27, 2002)

kertesd said:


> 16GB Nanos, Touchscreen iPods and More By September, Says Citigroup - Gizmodo
> "OSX Leopard release will happen on June 11 and will mean $50 to $75 million extra dollars of revenue per quarter"


Apparently they were wrong about the June 11 release date of Leopard. 

It's 4 months. I can wait. On other boards they are acting like it's the end of the world.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

kertesd said:


> 16GB Nanos, Touchscreen iPods and More By September, Says Citigroup - Gizmodo
> "OSX Leopard release will happen on June 11 and will mean $50 to $75 million extra dollars of revenue per quarter"


BS. Leopard will ship in October. Official statements by Apple trump 'gizmodo.com' speculation. 

Meh. I'm not overly surprised, nor disappointed. I can wait patiently, and now that I know when it's shipping, it puts me at ease.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Final nail in Aperture's coffin. Lightroom will have 99.9% market share by then... RIP


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## Thom (May 10, 2005)

I wonder if the delay is Apple's way of buying time to make Leopard even more apetizing VS VISTA. There thus could end up being more features that will trump VISTA than originally planned.. not that VISTA is such a hot product, but now Apple has something definite to aim at and make look bad.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

this paints a clear picture... if microcrap waited to release the zune, visduh would be less crappy....or vice versa...

who am I kidding, it was destined to be garbage all along....


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## Garry (Jan 27, 2002)

Moscool said:


> Final nail in Aperture's coffin. Lightroom will have 99.9% market share by then... RIP


How is this linked to Leopard? You lost me here.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

Garry said:


> How is this linked to Leopard? You lost me here.


I was wondering the same thing myself


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

kertesd said:


> 16GB Nanos, Touchscreen iPods and More By September, Says Citigroup - Gizmodo
> "OSX Leopard release will happen on June 11 and will mean $50 to $75 million extra dollars of revenue per quarter"





kevs~just kevs said:


> hmmm me thinks this might be a good opportunity to buy some AAPL! Stock's gone down a few % already... And you know it's going to go back up at WWDC in a couple months with the iPhone and all the Leopard details being released.


Nice heavy ending to the year and the Christmas buying season.
iPhone, iPod updates, Computer updates, Software updates Leopard, iWork, iLife

Buy Buy Buy!

--



Vexel said:


> Stupid phone.


:lmao:


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

The conspiracy theorist in me says, Apple has noticed a slow-down in hardware sales and is supposing customers are waiting to buy new computers to get the benefit of a new OS preinstalled (i.e. _me_ :baby: ). Those who can't wait another six months may now be able to justify buying now.



bryanc said:


> I think we'll see that iLife and iWork are also delayed, due to the new versions requiring 10.5.


To be clear, I believe both new application suites will still work as the '06 versions do, but there will be certain features which can only be taken advantage of if Leopard is installed.



bryanc said:


> I expect that Apple will come up with a new naming scheme for these suites, because naming something with the year it comes out when you release it in October will invite comparisons with MS.


I think you're right about new naming schemes, not for the same reason, but rather just because a dated title doesn't jive with their release dates.


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

Hi,

This reminds me of when the G4 stalled at 450MHz for about a year. 

s.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Kirtland said:


> I hope this doesn't affect iLife and iWork '07 release as well.


I bet it does.


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## Waynergy (Jan 6, 2007)

Great, the Longhorn/Vista effect.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Some problems with the Leopard Dev. release. Looks like they still got their work cut out for them... (once the _*iPhone*_ is finished with 'em)









AppleInsider | Apple's Leopard still plagued by lengthy bug list

Think Secret - Developers see new Leopard seed; release due in October

There's a bug in Bootcamp as well:
EETimes.com - Apple: New Boot Camp software could choke on Windows Vista


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

I'd rather it be delayed and relatively bug free than rushed out the door and buggy.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah maybe the audio developers might actually get caught up this time


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Macaholic said:


> Some problems with the Leopard Dev. release. Looks like they still got their work cut out for them... (once the _*iPhone*_ is finished with 'em)


Seems to me Apple's focus has changed from computers and a great OS to iPods and iPhones, and that is just plain sad, since it is all about chasing the almighty dollar.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

SINC said:


> Seems to me Apple's focus has changed from computers and a great OS to iPods and iPhones, and that is just plain sad, since it is all about chasing the almighty dollar.


In a twisted way, it's encouraging. As Apple diversifies its product base, I believe that Mac OS will ALWAYS be the platform from which it's developed. In this day and age, even a box for the boob tube is a full fledged computer... and -- logically -- Apple TV and the iPod AND the iPhone all tie into a computer.

So, if my theory is accurate this means that the computer platform will always remain a priority within Apple's development plans. And, to be apologetic about it, I'm sure that no "non-computer" product since the Newton -- perhaps no non-computing Apple product, ever -- is as technologically demanding as the iPhone... especially with the level of refinement and execution Apple strives for.

Call me naive (and do so via an iPhone  ) but I don't think that Apple will ever forsake their core products... especially given that Mac sales are on a solid upswing with their best prospects, ever.

And after all... Apple dumping their computers, OS _and _ their killer apps would mean that Steve Jobs himself would eventually have to migrate to... _WINDOWS??!_  And that just won't happen 'cause he thinks that M$ is poopy!!


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> And after all... Apple dumping their computers, OS _and _ their killer apps would mean that Steve Jobs himself would eventually have to migrate to... _WINDOWS??!_  And that just won't happen!


Ermmm... well iTunes was introduced to Windows as Hell freezing over... I wouldn't discount it ever happening.

This is disappointing news though. New screenshots show a slight update to Leopard's UI, but I'm seriously hoping there are significant updates to Finder, or some other dream app, or really, I don't see the need to upgrade.

I also don't understand how the iPhone of all products affects the release date of an OS. It sounds like a bluff to me.

From what I've heard, the iPhone architecture is significantly different from OSX. With significantly different architecture I would assume mean a whole new team dedicated to getting an OS working on the iPhone utilizing a whole other programming language of some kind. Certainly no x86 processor in that phone with the same disk/memory requirements as Tiger.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

jicon said:


> Ermmm... well iTunes was introduced to Windows as Hell freezing over... I wouldn't discount it ever happening.


Yes. But, the ulterior motive to that was to sell more iPods. If they port iLife to Windows, let's say, there's no hardware ecosystem Apple makes to profit off of that like there is with iTunes/iTMS/iPod. But hey, Windows is a HUGE market. Charging a decent price for iLife could possibly be worth it. But, regardless of the iPod it would be a bumpy ride for Apple to realign their revenue stream to something OTHER than their traditional dependency on Computers and OS/software. But I suppose it's not impossible. I'll get nervous about this if iPhone kills all in its path (a daunting challenge, given the maturity and SIZE of the cell phone market and incumbent "players"). Or, I'll get nervous when Jobs starts unveiling consumer electronics like these!



> I also don't understand how the iPhone of all products affects the release date of an OS. It sounds like a bluff to me. From what I've heard, the iPhone architecture is significantly different from OSX. With significantly different architecture I would assume mean a whole new team dedicated to getting an OS working on the iPhone utilizing a whole other programming language of some kind. Certainly no x86 processor in that phone with the same disk/memory requirements as Tiger.


True. But look at Linux on phones, Symbian and of course Windows Mobile. I'm sure there are technologies from these computer OSes (well Symbian aint really a comp OS) being leveraged on other processors. And after all (that's my closer line for this thread  ), didn't we once believe that Mac OS X only ran on PowerPC? Yet, all this time...


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

jicon said:


> me.
> 
> From what I've heard, the iPhone architecture is significantly different from OSX. With significantly different architecture I would assume mean a whole new team dedicated to getting an OS working on the iPhone utilizing a whole other programming language of some kind. Certainly no x86 processor in that phone with the same disk/memory requirements as Tiger.


Actually. The iPhone runs on OS X. Which leads me to believe that it's probably the same exact OS team for both.

Apple - iPhone - High Technology - OS X


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## mcdermij (Oct 13, 2006)

October release? Wow there are going to be a lot of angry students out there who want to get a new mac in September. Interesting business strategy. I am not a happy camper. But I have faith apple knows more about business than I.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

mcdermij said:


> October release? Wow there are going to be a lot of angry students out there who want to get a new mac in September. Interesting business strategy. I am not a happy camper. But I have faith apple knows more about business than I.


Mac users really need to stop thinking that $149 for an OS is a boat load of money. If Leopard doesn't have upgrade-worthy features, then don't buy it. Simple. If it does, then pay the $149 and quit complaining. Besides, Leopard may cost even less than the $149, as statistically speaking, the price of Mac OS X revisions has dropped with each release - correct me if I'm wrong.


(the above directed to the general public, not you in particular, mcdermij.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Lars said:


> Mac users really need to stop thinking that $149 for an OS is a boat load of money.


True



> If Leopard doesn't have upgrade-worthy features, then don't buy it. Simple.


Well, not so simple. As time goes by, the hazard with staying back in OS versions is that, since Mac OS X, the backwards compatibility of software has been pretty bad. Some examples I quickly banged out at MacUpdate:

Adium, Flip4Mac, Timbuktu Pro, File Juicer, Nisus Writer Pro, needs 10.3.9, 

Adobe Flash Player needs 10.3

Adobe Soundbooth, and our pals at GeekBench need 10.4

OnyX, Logic Pro needs 10.4.3

OmniWeb needs 10.4.6

Final Cut Studio, Adobe Photoshop CS3b needs 10.4.8

At least Apple Safari *1.0.3* can get along on 10.2.8 -- ONLY.

Office does 10.2.8 -- but it's archaic in structure, anyway. You can bet that the next Office/Mac probably won't run on Jag.


But hey; it's an easy fix for those staying behind and they one day might need it... but some may not be able to stay behind in the first place. Or, at least not for long.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

perhaps apple needs more time to incorporate vista support in bootcamp?
also, iPhone would actually make a much bigger splash in the media, sales and share prices
i might also agree that some users have put purchases on hold with all the leopard release rumours

i think it's a good move for apple in the long term
a delayed iPhone would be much more troublesome than a delayed Leopard

Tiger still kicks a$$

and i also bet other cell phone makers would like to close the gap between their phones and iPhone
jobs wants to keep his edge as long as possible as with iPod


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> and i also bet other cell phone makers would like to close the gap between their phones and iPhone


iPhone is definitely a game-changer. I'll bet the job market for former Apple engineers is looking damned sweet right about now...

Speaking of former Apple engineers, I wonder what Avie Avadis Tevanian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is up to these days? Hmm... looks like he's working on CELL PHONE SOFTWARE! What a coincedence. And the company is an intended acquisition of Microsoft. beejacon Interesting...

Putting my tin-foil hat on for just a moment, THIS GUY just retired from M$!

I'll let the possible ramifications of all of this set in for a minute...










Done? Good.

_*nnnNNNNNOOOOOOOoooooo.......!*_ :-(


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Waynergy said:


> Great, the Longhorn/Vista effect.


Vista was delayed by *years*. Leopard is being delayed by four *months*. Hardly a comparison. I'd much rather have the OS stable than rushed out.

We find out more come June 11th, and with luck I'll be in town to hear it.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Garry said:


> How is this linked to Leopard? You lost me here.


Aperture 2.0 has been on the cards for about 6 months. The idea was to launch shortly before/after Lightroom went from Beta 4.1 to live 1.0. I guess that the deadline was the PMA in early March.

Lightroom has picked up quite a few of the features that made Aperture interesting (and a few others). It will also run on a G4. The ball has been firmly in Apple's camp since then.

As usual Apple has refused to update users on its release plans which is pretty stupid given that Lightroom is taking the whole business to itself. Various bulletin boards make the assumption that Aperture is relying heavily on forthcoming 10.5 features both for its core use and for the integration with iLife "07"... A simple annoucement (it would NOT have been the first time) linking Aperture to 10.5 with upgrade path would have prevented people from jumping ship to Adobe. Having been running the tryouts of both products, I have had no choice but to purchase Lightroom (detailed reasons are a separate discussion). I have no intention to take my wallet out again to buy a product that is essentially serving the same needs.

Delaying by another 4 months means that only the hard core Apple fans or those who have already invested a lot of time in Aperture will be interested. Lightroom is far from perfect, but it is certainly very capable and there is a thriving community around it: from users to free tutorials to commercial ones, it is becoming the de facto workflow tool on both MAc and PC.

Hence my earlier comment... RIP


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## joltguy (Apr 15, 2005)

mikef said:


> I'd rather it be delayed and relatively bug free than rushed out the door and buggy.


Exactly.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

mcdermij said:


> October release? Wow there are going to be a lot of angry students out there who want to get a new mac in September. Interesting business strategy. I am not a happy camper. But I have faith apple knows more about business than I.


Why? Because Tiger is completely useless and difficult to use? What is the one feature that will make or break the ability for you, the user, to get things done? :lmao: 

Come on, be sensible. You sound like a kid pissed off at his parents because they didn't let them open one present on Christmas eve.

_What, now I have to wait?_ :yikes:


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## acc30 (Apr 26, 2006)

I was looking forward to that as I was planning to buy a macbook... I guess now I've got extra time to save up more.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

acc30 said:


> I was looking forward to that as I was planning to buy a macbook... I guess now I've got extra time to save up more.


You know, you _can buy a MacBook with Tiger installed_.

I don't understand why we delay purchases by 4 months just to get Leopard pre-installed. Honestly, $149 or less down the road in October won't kill you.


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## acc30 (Apr 26, 2006)

Lars said:


> You know, you _can buy a MacBook with Tiger installed_.
> 
> I don't understand why we delay purchases by 4 months just to get Leopard pre-installed. Honestly, $149 or less down the road in October won't kill you.



well I just decided to get one last month, so delaying for a month or two wasn't an issue for me if it was being released this april or may. Also, it's not a matter of necessity for me at the moment, I just wanted one when I need to take work with me or when I travel this summer. 

It really depends on the person, I think, and $149 can be used for something else.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

And the speculation and analysis begins:

"Apple slicing itself too thin"

There's more, but you get the idea.

With the iPhone, new Intel CPUs being prepped, Leopard, maybe a new FC Suite this weekend, iLife 07 MIA, a big rev of Logic due, probably new iPods being worked on *and* just having got Apple TV out the door -- late -- they must be going absolutely NUTS down there. I wonder if Jobs is ranting through the halls "old school"?  Maybe he had more of those sweatshirts made?

Here are some screenshots of Leopard:











Flickr: shrimpdesign's photos tagged with leopard

http://www.tomwrote.info/downloads/apple/


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

Well its good to hear that at least Apple will not release a product until they are confident that it exceeds their standard for quality. Its unfortunate Microsoft didn't do this with their product. 

I really like the new brushed metal look on Leopard I think it actually looks quite sexy. What strikes me from what I see in the screen shots is that you are able to switch between unified and brushed metal look.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

genuineadvantage said:


> Well its good to hear that at least Apple will not release a product until they are confident that it exceeds their standard for quality. Its unfortunate Microsoft didn't do this with their product.
> 
> I really like the new brushed metal look on Leopard I think it actually looks quite sexy. What strikes me from what I see in the screen shots is that you are able to switch between unified and brushed metal look.


MUCH needed improvement to Spotlight's results organizing! They're using the iTunes' _"Playlist->Contents-of"_ approach:


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Macaholic:

Hackint0sh eh? Funny.

I like Photobooth becoming 'videobooth'...


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Moscool said:


> Macaholic:
> 
> Hackint0sh eh? Funny.


That aint me, man. Just found 'em there.

Hey! This is the first time I've seen a shot of Mail's integrated notes & To-Dos! 










I remember Jobs referencing it at the WWDC, I guess, and it's a reason I'm jonsin' for Leopard. This eases my recent departure from Entourage and somewhat addresses my complaint of Dock clutter and extraneous app switching between Mail, Addressbook, iCal and a 3rd party note organizer! Me likey! :clap:


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Not sure if this is a good idea. Enhancing iCal would be more natural; or merging the two apps into one.

For those of us using DayLite and needing synchronisation with OS apps, the light at the end of the tunnel is receding rapidly...


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Moscool said:


> Not sure if this is a good idea. Enhancing iCal would be more natural; or merging the two apps into one.


Agreed on the all-in-one. It's a step or two in the right direction, however.



> For those of us using DayLite and needing synchronisation with OS apps, the light at the end of the tunnel is receding rapidly...


I'm not familiar enough with DayLite, so I can't understand your meaning, here


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

DL is a pretty groovy app. Think something between Act! and FileMaker Pro. Much better than Outlook/Entourage on the dbase side.

Does a so-so job of synchronising with AddressBook (has issues regarding users and permissions, plus field matching is not great). It is particularly bad at synching with calendar (does it in 'batch mode' and only in one direction). 

So if you need the convenience of shared iCals through .mac and the synchronisation to mobile devices via iSync, you are basically stuffed.

This probably means that we will move to things like Google Calendar over time, if we can find a way to synch this to Nokia phones...


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

Moscool said:


> DL is a pretty groovy app. Think something between Act! and FileMaker Pro. Much better than Outlook/Entourage on the dbase side.
> 
> Does a so-so job of synchronising with AddressBook (has issues regarding users and permissions, plus field matching is not great). It is particularly bad at synching with calendar (does it in 'batch mode' and only in one direction).
> 
> ...


But...
What if the people at Marketcircle (Daylite's developers) are reworking the entire sync functionality?


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## Fox (Oct 4, 2002)

Count me among the people thinking that the delay in the release of Leopard is a serious problem. I agree that no one wants a buggy operating system, but the reason Apple gives for the delay is more telling. And it's not just this delay; it's also the delay in computer upgrades outside of their regular cycle (especially the Mini). What I see here is a suggestion that Apple's interests are less and less on their computer business. This couldn't come at a worse time in my opinion; Apple is finally having some traction on Windows users and pulling them into the fold. This can stop and even reverse if users perceive that the platform won't receive Apple's primary attention anymore. 

This would be a very good time to release some computer upgrades to show that Apple is still advancing on this side of things. That would counteract some of the bad publicity they are getting because of this delay.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

jicon said:


> I also don't understand how the iPhone of all products affects the release date of an OS. It sounds like a bluff to me.


Nope - this just in from an Apple employee:
As one of the guys working on said big cat, I'm glad to see the ship 
date get pushed out. I've watched enough co-workers disappear into 
the iPhone building that I was starting to notice my bug reports 
weren't being fixed as fast. If Apple had held to the June ship 
date, then either we'd be locked up at Apple like the Oompa-Loompas 
of old and worked to death, or else you'd get something that's 
nowhere close to the reliability people expect from us. Probably both.

Besides, don't think of the iPhone as a new gadget. If it works out 
as we're planning, the iPhone will be as big and important as the 
iPod. Yes, the same iPod that's sold 100 million units and now 
accounts for half of Apple's revenue.

Remember, it's Apple Inc. now, not Apple Computer Inc.



> From what I've heard, the iPhone architecture is significantly different from OSX.


Nope - it *is* OS X.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Lars said:


> Mac users really need to stop thinking that $149 for an OS is a boat load of money.
> OK...can I borrow $149 then?
> Besides, Leopard may cost even less than the $149, as statistically speaking, the price of Mac OS X revisions has dropped with each release - correct me if I'm wrong.


I don't know what the "statistically speaking" refers to but that's been the price of every OS revision Apple has "made us" pay for. So...you're wrong.


----------



## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

ShawnKing said:


> I don't know what the "statistically speaking" refers to but that's been the price of every OS revision Apple has "made us" pay for. So...you're wrong.


He's right if you look at it inflation-adjusted

He's wrong if you look at the pricing curve of hardware

He's right if you look at the pricing curve of software

He's wrong if you look at the pricing of Apple Pro Apps


----------



## normcorriveau (Dec 6, 2005)

Maybe Lars meant that if take inflation into account the $149 you spent a few years ago can buy more today.

Norm

Darn Moscoool beet me to it!


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Moscool said:


> He's right if you look at it inflation-adjusted
> 
> He's wrong if you look at the pricing curve of hardware
> 
> ...


LOL What to sit on the fence. Do those pickets hurt?


----------



## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Moscool said:


> He's right if you look at it inflation-adjusted
> 
> He's wrong if you look at the pricing curve of hardware
> 
> ...



LOL! Very nicely done! :clap:


----------



## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

Fox said:


> What I see here is a suggestion that Apple's interests are less and less on their computer business.


That's very short term thinking, none of the Apple gadgets (iPod, AppleTV, iPhone) mean very much without a Computer to act as a "hub" for media. Don't worry, more Macs will come.



Fox said:


> This couldn't come at a worse time in my opinion; Apple is finally having some traction on Windows users and pulling them into the fold.


And just why do you think that is? Is it because the Mac/OS X is a better computer experience than it was (well, naturally), or is it because of "viral" gadgets like the iPod, AppleTV and soon the iPhone that have Windows users starting to ask themselves _"why don't I buy a Mac?"_


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## Fox (Oct 4, 2002)

Good question, Bjornbro. From what I have observed in my university, I would say a lot of it has been driven by the "safe" factor - Mac runs Windows, therefore I can now buy knowing I can default to that for any apps not runable on the Mac side. I see your point about the iPod; I'm sure that's a driver, too. I'm a lot more skeptical about the iPhone and whether it will get Windows computer users into thinking about Macs.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Bjornbro said:


> And just why do you think that is? Is it because the Mac/OS X is a better computer experience than it was (well, naturally), or is it because of "viral" gadgets like the iPod, AppleTV and soon the iPhone that have Windows users starting to ask themselves _"why don't I buy a Mac?"_


EXACTLY RIGHT.

Like, folks, many of us have been using Macs for A LONG TIME. Right? I'll probably not express myself clearly here -- and I'll of course take too long trying to do so -- but is there anything _really stupendously different_ using a Mac over the years? Yes, Mac OS X delivered significant stability improvements and a refreshing UI. And the boxes are cute. But *really*, the under-the-hood improvements and eye-candy are secondary to the "feel" of using a Mac, the decisions Apple makes in design, versus Windows and Microsoft's decisions. Hey, Vista is the nicest Windows yet -- to an untrained average person it might appear that they're the same. But, if you take Microsoft's BIGGEST visual leverage in their ads -- Flip 3D -- and compare it to Expose? Well Exposé's better speed and functionality just KILL Flip 3D. In this one comparison alone, I think you can contrast the way MS and Apple think things through, and see why some people greatly prefer Apple's sensibilities.

And what about the MBP's backlit keyboard? Is ANYBODY ESLE doing that?? It's just a stupid light just like those clumsy USB powered ones you can fiddle with to attach t your lid, but with the keys lit from beneath eliminates ANY glare factor with over-the-head (or lid) lighting, and with the light connected to the sensor shows that Apple sweats the details. When I move my MBP around into a room and I don't have to EVEN THINK about adjusting its lighting just for me to work? Well, to me that's just golden. Sure, the backlight is kewl -- but damn if it isn't also liberating!

What about *Mac OS* software support? Sure, it has improved since the dark days, but it's not reached a critical mass AT ALL where you can account for this as an incentive for switchers -- at least not at the superficial level. And, as for corporate and enterprise, again things are only improving incrementally...

And yet, almost all of us have been able to do what we need to on our Macs: internet, media creation, media consumption, bookkeeping, databases, spreadsheets, and on and on right down to niche software for managing a veterinary practise. There are some glowing exceptions to the platform's software count, such as AutoCAD and Access... but again that's no different now than it was then. And there has always been MacCAD, Filemaker, 4th Dimension, etc.

I'm sure I'm missing some things, but one thing that has seemed to become more viable since OS X has been Exchange compatibility (to an extent) -- but again, we could read PC disks and many file formats back in the Mac Classic days, too.

The bottom line is that we all would have to be the biggest idiots in the world if we were FOR YEARS AND YEARS using a platform that didn't deliver on our practical needs. But, _we're no idiots_.

So, if I'm not crazy... if things are for the most part the same in MacWorld, what's changed to cause people to switch more? What has caused the change in people's attitude towards Apple's products? MacIntel? Bootcamp or Parallels? To an extent, for sure -- but that benefit for average users is only a perceptual one IMHO. To me, as evidenced by how WE have gotten the job done, from 680x0 through PowerPC, Windows software compatibility seems somewhat of a placebo for average switchers. Switchers might use it at first because they assume there's little choice for the Mac. Then, over time they'll find that that's not the case and dump the Windows partition. Again, they'll come to see what we already know.

On balance, I'd say that it's not really Apple or what a Mac is that's changed; it's that people's eyes have been opened, and they're just coming to understand what we've known all along.

I definitely believe in the iPod halo effect. To me, not only did Apple port iTunes to Windows in order to sell more iPods and content, but it also gave Windows users a sampling of working within Apple's vertical ecosystem. Even Microsoft themselves have seen the light by creating their own vertically integrated portable audio player and online portal. "Plays For Sure"? "Meh", says Microsoft. I think that, more than anything, the slick iPod vertical ecosystem has been the greatest ice-breaker of all, and everything MacIntel has followed suit, being actual gravy to the Mac meat -- even though PC folks might _think_ it in reverse.

EDIT: And let's not forget the stores -- the thing EVERY guy out there thought was doomed to failure... and yet those stores are BUSY. ALWASY BUSY. But -- again a new store is not a new Mac. In fact, this may sound weird but I'd say that the Apple Stores _themselves_ are Apple's most radical "product" in the context of their paradigm since the Newton.

So, the iPhone, which is an entire Apple vertical ecosystem -- a Macintosh computer in spirit, right in the palm of your hand, if you will -- will probably be even MORE effective over time than the iPod is at swinging people over to the Mac camp, and I'll bet that Apple has come to see their little consumer devices as the most effective marketing trojan a company could ever wish for. hey just need to make sure that it WORKS AS ADVERTISED. They set very high bars for themselves... and they need to. iPhone must KILL when compared to other phones in its elegant execution and ease of use or it'll be a me-too flop. Apple knows this and, as a result, that's why this thread exists 


I don't think Apple will willingly curtail their computer and OS development; they'll just launch other products off of it. And products are MUCH more complex today than they were ten years ago. Hell, even my toaster has some LEDs on it for some damned reason  (I'm not kidding). As the evolving feature complexity increases among casual consumer devices, who better than Apple to define their proper design? Motorola? RCA? JVC? _General Electric?? The "we bring good things to life" people??_ Forget it. And how about Microsoft, who you can BET they will pursue with every ounce of their strength, Apple or not? Uh-uh. I don't think many of us here would be happy trying to contend with Microsoft's "philosophies" in the living room any more than we would on the desktop. All the companies I named above and many of those like 'em don't "get it" like Apple does.

So. There ya go. Sorry for the length, here, but maybe it'll assuage any fears of where Apple might be going. I'm only guessing as anybody can who doesn't live in Steve Jobs' cranium, but I hope it's a good guess.

My







I'll STFU now.


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## kevs~just kevs (Mar 21, 2005)

and don't forget that Jobs said in his last keynote that there's lots of new things happening with the Mac this year... or something like that...

If the rumors are true that the 17" iMac is EOL, then we might even see a new mid range Mac alltogether no? Hey it's a good possibiliity.


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## definetheline (Mar 10, 2007)

kevs~just kevs said:


> If the rumors are true that the 17" iMac is EOL


What rumors say that?


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

As a recent switcher that has 3 other friends that switched after me the reason for the switch stemmed from the iPod/iTunes integration and Apple's migration to Intel chips. As someone said previously having the option to run Windows on the Mac hardware makes the transission feel much safer then going to the PowerPC world. Like most my reliance on XP has dwindled to the point I rarely bother with it any longer but Parallels served as a safety net and its still very useful for some business app's that'll never get ported to OS X. For myself and my friends that switched a large part was also growing up to the point that playing games wasn't as important and we can now afford and appreciate quality over generic mass produced stuff. There's simply no better hardware then what Apple makes and that includes the iPod so IMO the iPhone, iPod, AppleTV etc all help sell the brand.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

ShawnKing said:


> I don't know what the "statistically speaking" refers to but that's been the price of every OS revision Apple has "made us" pay for. So...you're wrong.


As far as I recall, 10.3 "Panther" sold for $179.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

definetheline said:


> What rumors say that?


Ditto..


----------



## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

definetheline said:


> What rumors say that?





Lars said:


> Ditto..


AppleInsider | Apple's next-generation iMacs to add a touch of grace


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## Fox (Oct 4, 2002)

Very nice post, Macaholic; no wasted text there. I think all these things are important and who knows which is the most important? What I also think is that Microsoft has deep pockets; they're feeling threatened right now and will do what they have to to take advantage of any opening given to them. Apple has to be better than Microsoft, much better, to take their advantage away from them. And in my mind, Apple "blinked" when they first denied rumours that Leopard was delayed and then later admitted it. I predict that MS will use that to sow seeds of doubt - making the point that they're no different than anyone else in this business. And even if Apple is (a 6 month delay is not several years), they have been caught in not doing something they said they would do. Doing what you say you'll do is very powerful these days; witness Harper vs Paul Martin. (I'm not a PC admirer; my point here is about advertising and image.)

This brings me back to my point about the computer hardware - I think that they need to be seen making advances there to keep potential switchers thinking good thoughts about Apple so that they eventually jump. I don't see the iPhone doing that. Maybe I just don't understand its potential importance because I personally don't see it as useful. (Same with AppleTV, whereas I clearly see the importance of the iPod.) However, I'm willing to be "enlightened".


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Actually we will only be delayed about 4 months from the actual first release date of Spring. To most people Spring ends around June 21, that's when summer starts. So from the end of June to October is not 6 months.

What people fail to notice is what's in between the lines or behind the doors at Apple in the future. Everyone thinks about right now and not 3 years ahead in time for Apple.

Let's look at the iPod, it started out in black and white screen, played only music and that was it in the beginning. Over time it has evolved into listening to music, watching movies, looking at photos, playing more games etc...

Now with the iPhone from Apple, this is just the beginning of another future product that Apple will change over time as it adds and redesigns the iPhone over the years. Perhaps the iPhone is another test product for something bigger in the future. Apple seems good at doing things like that.

Leopard is delayed, oh well, most people can still accomplish everyday things on their Macs running Tiger, it's not like the printing press is going to come to a screeching halt in the next month or two because Apple didn't deliver Leopard. It's not like the film or photography industry is going to stop dead in their tracks due to a 4 month delay in Leopard. It's not like companies who use Macs will go out of business in the next few months because Apple didn't deliver Leopard on time. I mean some businesses are still using OS 9 for crying out loud! 

Apple is a company that does things right the first time. They may take a while longer then anyone else in the industry, but when they deliver, they deliver a product that works. Look at the MP3 market, Apple was not the first player in this market years ago, in fact they were one of the last ones, except for Microsoft to join the MP3 market. Apple was busy looking at designing a MP3 player that would work seamlessly and had style. They were busy looking at the BIG PICTURE and not what they could do in a short time frame. So it took them a few years, but they did it right. The same will happen to the iPhone, Leopard and all the rest of what comes out of Apple in the next few years. We just need to be a little patient and wait for the goodies on the other side of the rainbow .


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Fox said:


> Very nice post, Macaholic; no wasted text there.


Really? Thank you, Fox! That means a lot to me coming from you (I know you don't post too much in here, but your disposition caught my attention).



> Apple has to be better than Microsoft, much better, to take their advantage away from them.


Apple is in a crucial growth stretch right now. The planets are aligned for them to really bust out and carve themselves new markets (Mac fans have said this before -- but this time it looks like a keeper!). BUT they _must_ not let things get away from them. This has happened twice this year, both involving new platforms. I can only imagine the complexity that companies like Apple and Microsoft -- and even SMALL startups -- go through, but in many ways it looks to me like their planning and management is being put to the test lo these years.



> And in my mind, Apple "blinked" when they first denied rumours that Leopard was delayed and then later admitted it.


Agreed. And that's Apple's way. They almost ALWAYS go through that silly process when a problem occurs. Denial. Then, spin.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

If Apple really wanted take charge of the situation, they'd offer a free upgrade to those who buy a Mac between the WWDC and when Leopard is actually released.

This would also spur sales as many have been sitting on the fence waiting for Leopard's June release.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

satchmo said:


> If Apple really wanted take charge of the situation, they'd offer a free upgrade to those who buy a Mac between the WWDC and when Leopard is actually released.


Apple owes you* nothing. tptptptp

(* Means everybody who has this sense of entitlement, not satchmo personally.)


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

*I dunno about all this... I think we're all a little hypocritical...*

...if Microsoft had even delayed Vista by a few weeks, we'd be rubbing our hands together, snickering, calling them Microslop, etc., etc...

I can't believe how soft you all are on Steve Jobs, and Apple... but then again, there's brand loyalty for you.

As for me, I still have a good appreciation for all things Apple, and I do think that Vista is a very ho-hum upgrade, but having said all that, there's a bit of a tarnish developing for me on the Apple brand, including the following experiences:


My rev.B iMac G5 kicked the bucket this month, less than two years after purchase;
I just realized that I initially bought a Mac to do MORE home movies... and realize that I long for (get this, folks,) the ease, speed and quality of Windows Movie Maker... I know, I know... I know what you'll all say on this one. But honestly, iMovie is not as good, and Final Cut Express sits unused;
My wife refuses to use our Mac, claiming that she hates the user interface, and so we bought a $700 Windows laptop that I find MYSELF using more frequently than I'd care to admit.

I dunno. I think it's great that Apple is spreading its wings out, and they do have a very cool image associated with the brand... but I don't think Apple TV is going to work (limited by harddrive capacity on the host computer, as well as poor output video quality), the iPhone is interesting, but the corporate world will probably never pick it up over a Blackberry, and Apple hardware is beautiful to look at, but probably a little too fragile.

It's been a bad week for me and my Apple love.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

Bjornbro said:


> Apple owes you* nothing. tptptptp
> 
> (* Means everybody who has this sense of entitlement, not satchmo personally.)


No they don't. 
But think why not take bad PR and make it a win-win situation?


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

mac_geek said:


> [*]My rev.B iMac G5 kicked the bucket this month, less than two years after purchase;



There are lemons, and you obviously had one of them  My sisters iMac G5 is 2 almost 3 years old and she hasn't had one problem with it. Mind you though it is properly taken care of. For example it is plugged into a high quality UPS system. Power disturbances can significantly reduce the life expectancy of any computer, no matter who makes it. Also the system is left running 24/7. Turning the system on and off or sleep and wake all the time for any computer can cause thermal stress which reduces system life expectancy. My dad who is a process instrumentation engineer has designed components for computers (industrial mind you) and he has told me that hardware is only designed to take so much. Also knowing certified Hewlett Packard technicians have also said the same thing.




mac_geek said:


> My wife refuses to use our Mac, claiming that she hates the user interface


This is not the fault of Apple it is the user who is using the Apple product.


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

mac_geek said:


> ...if Microsoft had even delayed Vista by a few weeks, we'd be rubbing our hands together, snickering, calling them Microslop, etc., etc...
> 
> I can't believe how soft you all are on Steve Jobs, and Apple... but then again, there's brand loyalty for you.
> 
> ...


My girlfriend HATED macs before she even tried one...she is an engineering student and thought macs were for Wimpy design guru's. She said she loved windows excepted when it crashed before she saved her homework! SO since January of 2006 all she had is had the pleasure of using is the Intel 20" imac we bought. She had 3 months before Bootcamp came out to get used to OSX. She now loves OSX and gets irritated with windows when she HAS to use it:clap: 

I think Leopard should come out earlier than OCT and it probably will be....I think Apple is trying to keep iphones thunder rolling...I can't wait for leopard....maybe by them I can sell the 20" imac and by the 24" with Leopard...


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

imactheknife said:


> She said she loved windows excepted when it crashed before she saved her homework!


Gee... that story sounds familiar...


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## Fox (Oct 4, 2002)

Thanks Macaholic; I hadn't seen that one. I hear lots of stories like that from students, though usually attributed to HD crashes rather than Windows crashes. Problem is I can't separate the reality from the excuses for things being turned in late.


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## idiot (Sep 10, 2006)

Last year, I wanted to wait for Leopard before buying a mac, fortunately I bought it in december last year!


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

Oakbridge said:


> Apple released this statement which says the iPhone will be on time and has passed certification tests but they had to borrow resources from the Leopard Development Team.


No it did *NOT* say that!
"passed several of its required certification tests"

Several... which means it failed others.

Making a phone is dam tricky and Apple is learning the hard way.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Script Kiddie said:


> No it did *NOT* say that!
> "passed several of its required certification tests"
> 
> Several... which means it failed others.
> ...


An astute analysis, Mr. Spock 

Or... it could also mean that not al of the tests have been conducted!

Either way, any drop in Apple stock _is a buying opportunity, folks!_


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

As someone who's played with Leopard briefly, I can say that it doesn't feel all that different than Tiger, in terms of general usability. Yes Time Machine seems cool, I could never get into the "feel" os Spaces though, and none of the other enhancements (other than Spotlight changed, which I loved) seemed like deal-breakers. I easily switched back to Tiger, not missing anything at all about my Leopard experience. 

I dunno. If Apple showcases the supposed "secret" features at WWDC that will be cool, it was getting weird that in mid-April we hadn't heard anything about anything beyond what we saw at WWDC 2006, with an expected "June" release date. I for one am ok with the delay... esepcially if that means that we get some new killer features that really set Leopard apart from Tiger.


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

I am sure Apple will not dissapoint....They know Vista is out but I am sure they want to keep well ahead in the best OS department


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

This is very disappointing, but at least Tiger is still a great OS. Unlike poor Windoze users, who were stuck with XP while waiting for Vista


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

applebook said:


> This is very disappointing, but at least Tiger is still a great OS. Unlike poor Windoze users, who were stuck with XP while waiting for Vista


Plus, Tiger has only been out for 2 years now, whereas XP had been out for more than FIVE.

If only Apple had said "Coming 2007" instead of "spring 2007" I think a lot of this "controversy" would have been averted


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

Macaholic said:


> An astute analysis, Mr. Spock
> 
> Or... it could also mean that not al of the tests have been conducted!



Do you really think Apple would pull all those developers off OS X, delay Leopard by 6 *months* unless something really, _really_ was going bad with the tests.

Writing a radio stack is tough work - it takes a company many years to get it right.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

If it's true that the Leopard delay is due to resources being reallocated to the iPhone (rather than just spin - "the iPhone will be on schedule" to distract us from the delay) then it means one of two things.

Either Apple has a serious problem and they're panicking (putting more programmers on a delayed project will only delay it further), or the people that have been moved are QA people. The latter makes much more sense to me, and it indicates that Leopard is nearing completion. However, because Apple has been growing so fast, they don't have the resources to thoroughly test both the iPhone and Leopard at the same time, and rather than let a buggy beta of Leopard kill the buzz, they've decided to delay it while they finish testing of the iPhone.

The iPhone has to come first, because it's going to get a lot more attention, and it's the product which Apple has contractual obligations to release on schedule.

Letting Leopard slip is the lesser of two evils. But hopefully Apple will have learned from this and will build its talent pool such that the company is better able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Cheers


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

if anything appple may have underestimated how competitive the cell phone market is and how their competitors could be creating iphone killers

people seem quite happy with tiger and iphone will make a bigger splash and more money for apple and a bigger bump in stock price

jobs made big promises with iphone and he needs to make them come true
leopard can wait

as for walk and chew gum at the same time, apple has been better at OS upgrades than M$ with longhorn/vista

and look at zune and how badly that has done


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Script Kiddie said:


> Do you really think Apple would pull all those developers off OS X, delay Leopard by 6 *months* unless something really, _really_ was going bad with the tests.
> 
> Writing a radio stack is tough work - it takes a company many years to get it right.


Well, I certainly don't doubt the out-of-their realm challenge Apple took on.

Here's another thought: who's to say it _will_ take six months? They quite surprised us with their fast move to Intel. Granted, however, that they were maintaining the x86 version all along.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

fyrefly said:


> As someone who's played with Leopard briefly


Did you happen to check out Mail and its expanded notes and to-dos capability? I wonder if it is tying in to iCal and Address book -- i.e.: EVENT LINKING?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Remember too that MS is vulnerable - Vista is a mess - were Apple to come out with a half assed effort - hey not good.

I've been telling clients they should NOT count on Leopard being solid out of the gate.
With this delay I'm much comfortable that developers and Apple will have their act together and show MS users how it SHOULD be done.

There is an opportunity for Apple for a big boost if Leopard really rocks. Patience grasshoppers.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

bryanc said:


> If it's true that the Leopard delay is due to resources being reallocated to the iPhone [ ...] then it means one of two things.
> 
> Either Apple has a serious problem and they're panicking (putting more programmers on a delayed project will only delay it further), or the people that have been moved are QA people. [ ... ]


Thanks, thats a good point.

PS
There have been rumours floating around that blaming the delay of Leopard on the iPhone is just a smoke screen either for serious problems with Leopard, and/or feature creep (making BootCamp support Vista). But I don't believe that - Apple has had such a good record for keeping OS releases on track.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

fyrefly said:


> If only Apple had said "Coming 2007" instead of "spring 2007" I think a lot of this "controversy" would have been averted


Agreed. Add to that the fact that only last month they publicly "promised" Leopard was on track for the original Spring 07 release date.

Apple is being hoisted on their own petard.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Script Kiddie said:


> There have been rumours floating around that blaming the delay of Leopard on the iPhone is just a smoke screen either for serious problems with Leopard


I don't believe that and people inside Apple have told me that is not the case. I'll believe them over the "rumours". 


> (making BootCamp support Vista).


Bootcamp is already Vista-compatible.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> Did you happen to check out Mail and its expanded notes and to-dos capability? I wonder if it is tying in to iCal and Address book -- i.e.: EVENT LINKING?


Sorry, no. Didn't get a chance to play with Mail, mostly tried new stuff like Time Machine/Spaces/etc...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)




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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

lol!

I like the "WHO THE HELL KEEPS PRESSING THE TIME MACHINE BUTTON?! AAARHRGHRGRHGH!!!!" :lmao: They must be going CRAZY down there:

Programmers:

































































Phil:









Avie:









Jobs:


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I like "Vista sucks, there's no need to rush."
_
(Caution: post above exceeds annual smilie limit. View with care.)_


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

HowEver said:


> _
> (Caution: post above exceeds annual smilie limit. View with care.)_


lol. You know, I checked back through this thread _to make sure *you* had already posted, subscribed and therefore would be alerted to that post_


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## kevs~just kevs (Mar 21, 2005)

definetheline said:


> What rumors say that?


Mac Rumors: Next Apple iMacs with "Striking New Industrial Design"?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## kevs~just kevs (Mar 21, 2005)

I agree with you However. I can't see Apple making the iMac much sexier:yikes:


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

HowEver said:


> Not that I want to turn this into a private chat, but... I don't subscribe to threads. I reduced the number of alerts I receive to the necessary lot.


Noted.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

HowEver said:


> Doesn't it already have a striking industrial design? Or will the next iMac design match stainless steel stoves and fridges?


Maybe they'll somehow go funky again like they did with the Luxo iMac?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

My prediction for the next iMac design:


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## rhino (Jul 10, 2002)

*Getting Back to Leopard Launch*

When does Apple finally launch the Beast? The Golden Master is out there in some form or other but still being tweaked? Anyone heard if Tiger-related courses still being taught or tested?

Time for a Poll?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

rhino said:


> When does Apple finally launch the Beast?


They've only said "October". No exact launch date has been given.


> The Golden Master is out there in some form or other but still being tweaked?


It hasn't gone GM yet.


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## Deep Blue (Sep 16, 2005)

http://www.apple.com/ca/macosx/leopard/

The whole "Stacks" concept looks unusual...


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

<29 days to go!


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## darkmcs (Sep 1, 2007)

Heart said:


> <29 days to go!


hopefully!!!

XX)


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

Deep Blue said:


> Apple - Mac OS X Leopard
> 
> The whole "Stacks" concept looks unusual...


Looks great! I have a folder on my Dock for temporary downloads, having that sort of functionality and more built right into the OS will be great.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/10/01/apple-releases-leopard-9a557-9a599-seed-update/



> Apple has released a new seed update to developers running the latest versions of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard via Mac OS X's Software Update mechanism.
> 
> The 9A557/9A559 Seed Update includes fixes to wireless networking and RAW image viewing in the latest development build of Mac OS X Leopard. The update is also being used to test new features with in the Software Update mechanism itself.
> 
> ...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Seems to me there are a number of people tiptoeing around the elephant in the room  mmmmmppghmmppppphhhh... incred...mmmph....fast,,,,,,,,mmppppphffftttt


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

I hope they offer a downloadable version so I don't have to wait for snail mail.


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## 2hondas (Jun 26, 2007)

I am ANXIOUSLY waiting for Leopard.

Question. I want to save some money by buying the "family" pack, with 5 serial #'s, if there is such one available. Its okay for me and 4 other friends to buy this and share, correct?


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

No... the license specifically says five members of your family in your household. Not to your friends, not to your roommates, and not to your aunt in London UK.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Why would you buy a family pack when you can just get the single license and install it on any Mac you want?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I don't think so. I'm not suggesting anybody steal a copy of OS X from the web... I don't see a problem purchasing and installing it on all of my Macs.

Apple apparently doesn't either, since they have yet to go the way of Microsoft and Vista and tie each license to a single machine.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> Apple apparently doesn't either, since they have yet to go the way of Microsoft and Vista and tie each license to a single machine.


Apple does. They just hope their users do too.

If enough people "steal" their OS, they would have to go to a MS method of licensing.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> If enough people "steal" their OS, they would have to go to a MS method of licensing.


Unlike MS, Apple makes the bulk of their money off their hardware. If too many people start stealing there OS, they'll just put higher system requirements into it, forcing people to buy new hardware.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ShawnKing said:


> Apple does. They just hope their users do too.
> 
> If enough people "steal" their OS, they would have to go to a MS method of licensing.


 

Unlikely. Otherwise they would have done it a long time ago.

As long as Apple keeps selling millions of Macs, they're not going to worry about copies of OS X being installed on multiple machines (and breaking the EULA) nor are they going to worry about it being pirated.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> Unlikely. Otherwise they would have done it a long time ago.


Not true at all. At the present time, Apple doesn't feel that the amount of theft warrants more draconian security measures.


> As long as Apple keeps selling millions of Macs, they're not going to worry about copies of OS X being installed on multiple machines (and breaking the EULA) nor are they going to worry about it being pirated.


Also not true. Believe me, I've spoken to people at Apple about this. They *do* worry about how much loss they get through various kinds of OS thefts.

Why do you think they instituted the Family Pack for OS X to begin with?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ShawnKing said:


> Not true at all. At the present time, Apple doesn't feel that the amount of theft warrants more draconian security measures.
> 
> Also not true. Believe me, I've spoken to people at Apple about this. They *do* worry about how much loss they get through various kinds of OS thefts.
> 
> Why do you think they instituted the Family Pack for OS X to begin with?


Why did Apple make the family pack? Lets see: Because they know somebody, somewhere, is silly enough to pay for additional copies of OS X (just because), thus fill their coffers with even more money.

Look, don't sell me the draconian crap--Apple locks their hardware to prevent people from doing what they want. Why is this any different?

The fact of the matter is iLife is nothing more than an incentive for customers to buy Macs. It's fluff. It always has been, and it always will be. If they truly cared, they would have (at the very least) implement the simplest form of security that they use on their _pro software_: serial numbers.

Apple has yet to take any sort of action to prevent losses because they're not actually losing anything. They're gaining. With every new Mac they sell, iLife is paid for. And don't tell me they don't consider loses when they mull sticker prices.

Apple's hardware requirements have gone through the roof over the last couple of years. It's absolutely idiotic at the amount of resources required to just RUN OS X let alone run it well.

GT has the right idea: It's the all-new circle of life with Apple: New whiz-bang features=new hardware requirements; new requirements=new computers. Since you can't upgrade consumer-level Macs (beyond RAM and a HD), you pretty much have no recourse but to sell off last month's model and get the next one. And now people need to contend with the Intel migration.

Apple products used to retain their value quite well until the last couple of years. Welcome to the Bic™ era of Apple products.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> Why did Apple make the family pack? Lets see: Because they know somebody, somewhere, is silly enough to pay for additional copies of OS X (just because), thus fill their coffers with even more money.


That's certainly one reason but not theonly one.


> Look, don't sell me the draconian crap


Not trying to sell you anything.


> Apple locks their hardware to prevent people from doing what they want. Why is this any different?


Becasue we're talking about software and not hardware.


> The fact of the matter is iLife is nothing more than an incentive for customers to buy Macs. It's fluff.


Umm...who's talking about iLife? We were talking about OS X.


> Apple has yet to take any sort of action to prevent losses because they're not actually losing anything.


Not true - they are just not yet losing *enough* for them to be overly concerned about it.


> Apple's hardware requirements have gone through the roof over the last couple of years.


It's not just Apple's - it's Windows and almost every piece of software you buy.


> GT has the right idea: It's the all-new circle of life with Apple: New whiz-bang features=new hardware requirements; new requirements=new computers.


LOL That's the circle of life for damn near *every* manufacturer of goods.


> Since you can't upgrade consumer-level Macs (beyond RAM and a HD), you pretty much have no recourse but to sell off last month's model and get the next one.


And this is different from the past - how exactly?


> Apple products used to retain their value quite well until the last couple of years. Welcome to the Bic™ era of Apple products.


LOL Bitter much?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Most Macs in use now are Intel-based


Actually, most Macs in use are still the Pre-Intel machines. Apple has sold a lot of Intel Macs but not *that* many yet. 


> And I'll sniffle a bit when Leopard doesn't run on my G3s, but I'll get over it.


That will happen the day Leopard is released - it won't be supported on G3 Macs.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

HowEver said:


> I knew I should have bookmarked that statistic. Now where did that go?


LOL Well, you can do the math yourself. Apple has always "reported" appro 20-30 million Macs "in use". Intel Macs have been available for about 2 years. Even if Apple has sold a million per quarter consistently, thats still "only" 8 million Intel Macs...


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ShawnKing said:


> Becasue we're talking about software and not hardware.


Nice dodge. It's relevant to the discussion.



> Umm...who's talking about iLife? We were talking about OS X.


I'm offering an example of another product Apple offers that holds absolutely no security from piracy. Glad you could meet me half-way. 



> Not true - they are just not yet losing *enough* for them to be overly concerned about it.


LOL. How much is too much? Have you ever seen Torrent lists? Here's an idea: Maybe it's a _loss-leader_.

But... I doubt any corporate-type would be so glib about their products. 



> It's not just Apple's - it's Windows and almost every piece of software you buy.
> 
> LOL That's the circle of life for damn near *every* manufacturer of goods.
> 
> And this is different from the past - how exactly?


I don't recall last-gen OSes making such huge jumps in resource requirements over the matter of a year or two. OS X was supposedly a revolutionary next-generation OS compared to Mac OS 9, yet it still can't meet the same snappy response. It still suffers performance issues in spite of having years of refinement.



> LOL Bitter much?


No, why? Should I use bigger emoticons?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> No, why? Should I use bigger emoticons?


Should I?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

How about this?


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## 2hondas (Jun 26, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> Why would you buy a family pack when you can just get the single license and install it on any Mac you want?


?? So you can install Leopard on as many Macs as you want, with a single user CD?


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## pictor (Jan 29, 2007)

2hondas said:


> ?? So you can install Leopard on as many Macs as you want, with a single user CD?


Yes, you are just not *supposed* to.

A single license means you are promising to only install it on a single machine. Whether you keep that promise is another matter.

A family license means you they don't mind if you install it on up to 5 machines, but you should stop there.

It's all honour system though.


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## 2hondas (Jun 26, 2007)

pictor said:


> Yes, you are just not *supposed* to.
> 
> A single license means you are promising to only install it on a single machine. Whether you keep that promise is another matter.
> 
> ...


Uh, okay. So, what should a group of 5 friends do?  Buying one each is stupid, if these options are available.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

2hondas said:


> Uh, okay. So, what should a group of 5 friends do?  Buying one each is stupid, if these options are available.


There is no option to share amongst 5 friends, unless they all happen to be family members living in the same house. Licences aren't about what you can get away with. They are about the legal agreement between you and the person making the product available for license. 

There's nothing stopping me from copying money, but there are laws that say I shouldn't and that there are penalties if I do. Same goes with software licenses. You agree with them to use the software, if you don't agree with them, don't use the software. It's simple. 

I've got 2 macs in my house, including one that I bought just weeks ago. I'll be buying the family pack of Leopard and I'm happy that I can get a license for my machines for $250 instead of $300 (2X$150).


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## 2hondas (Jun 26, 2007)

Oh, okay. I am a student, so I will get the student discount. Hopefully it will be under $100 with the student discount.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

2hondas said:


> Oh, okay. I am a student, so I will get the student discount. Hopefully it will be under $100 with the student discount.


You may not get off that easily. If Leopard sells for the same as Tiger, you'll be looking at $124 I think. Of course Leopard could be more or less.


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## 2hondas (Jun 26, 2007)

Atroz said:


> You may not get off that easily. If Leopard sells for the same as Tiger, you'll be looking at $124 I think. Of course Leopard could be more or less.


Tiger is $84 now with student pricing. I am expecting Leopard to be a bit higher when it is released.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

2hondas said:


> Tiger is $84 now with student pricing. I am expecting Leopard to be a bit higher when it is released.


wow, I'd assumed the educational costs were the same as the corporate discount ones. I didn't realize that you got a significantly better price.


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## Fox (Oct 4, 2002)

If I recall correctly, Tiger and each previous version of OS X was about $110 for educators and students.


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