# Capture of Hussein!



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Any thoughts and/or comments on the capture of Hussein in Iraq?


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## dthompson101 (Jan 16, 2001)

My thoughts??

Now that they have Saddam, what oil bearing nation is the U.S. going to "free" in order to save the people?

It's almost like the game of Risk. We are all watching as the U.S. slowly creeps up on everyone.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

Wow!
Oh my God!

I am speachless, waking up this morning and hearing the news.

!?!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Not the fierce dictator - a worn out man on the run who led his sons to their deaths. It shows  

The Iraqis should celebrate. Apparently the Iraqi police were involved but that is a good thing for the pride of the people.

Here's hopng the US administration shows some gravity instead of glee and this would be a terrific time to put a real timeline on the withdrawal.

It will be very interesting to see how and who brings him to trial


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

It must be very good news for those Iraqi people who have been living in fear.

However, it is not a cleansing of corruption. Nor will it diminish terrorist activities in Iraq.

The concerns of many, is how will Iraq be run from this day on; by whom, and by what type of government. Our perception of democracy could mean many of the people would have to give up traditional religions and cultures in order to have 'freedom' as perceived by coalition nations and the rest of us.

It won't be easy for the people of Iraq, as they are only too aware that the USA wants the oil under their feet... at all costs!

Gloating has already begun on CNN, giving the impression that coalition forces have achieved their ultimate goal(s). Whatever happened to finding those terrible Weapons of Mass Destruction????

IMHO, the White House will direct attention in some new part of the world to divert public attention as to what the Bush administration intends to do next in Iraq.

Unless, of course, the war isn't over.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm certain Saddam Hussein is bursting at the seams to finally reveal where all his Weapons of Mass Deception are hidden?

Much may be overshadowed by any tribunal activities against Saddam. Will he be tried in Guantanamo? Or in Iraq? Will he be held indefinitely by Americans? Or turrned over to the Iraqi people to be tried in his country by his own people? He was to be tried in absentia by the new tribunal being formed in Iraq before being captured...

A new government or regime is required, but with so much instability in Iraq and the Middle East, it's hard to nail down exactly how that might come about.

Suffice to say that Bush will feel vindicated, as his spin doctors manipulate this scenario in the best interest of getting Bush re-elected.

Could that mean hanging Saddam in Texas!


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

WOWEE INDEED! this is awesome news! I hope it means that eventually stability will be on the increase over there! It must be really really hard to have gone from gold walls, marble floors, all the lavish ammenities to a mud pit hole in the ground







they should have just poured concrete over the floor and cut off the air flow..but in the eyes of the iraqis and the arab world they need to see that it is indeed Saddam himself. This will do A LOT of good over there over the next few months...well, we can all hope it will...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

This could really bring the Iraqi people together as a focal point to reunite the nation - difficult task to guide this as an invading group in power.








But the "spirit" may be there. Here's hoping they are allowed to conduct their own 

Blair was right on the mark saying the Iraqis should try him. Blair was quiet and dignified and immediately called Iraqis to reconcile their differences .  

We'll see how Bush handles this.......I suspect a smirk will be present and accounted for. 

I think we need to give all parties the benefit of the doubt right now - this is a real opportunity to put the Iraqi people FIRST. We'll see if the action matches the stated intentions.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

That Saddam has been captured is certainly good news... especially that he was taken alive (surprised the hell out of me that he didn't put up a fight, or that the U.S. troops didn't arrange for his death-by-firefight). 

It's possibly *not* good news for the U.S. that he was taken alive, however. I was very surprised to hear George Stephanopolous (ABC News) this morning raise an interesting question: if and when Saddam is finally put on trial, just how damaging will it be to the U.S. when the details of its support for the Iraqi dictator is revealed?

Hmmmmmmm.

M.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Macdoc...

I agree, but I have difficulty with the idealism. Saddam is only one man... the leader of one sect... the one that was in power. It was also a position he maintained by military force. Those he fought against, now have a free hand at fighting for supremacy to replace Saddam.

Civil war has been going on in Iraq and other Middle East countries for a long time, and coalition forces simply intervened in on-going battles within Iraq for their own gains. Thus coalition forces can, and may be perceived by Iraqis, as just another invading sect or religion equal in intent to their own home-grown secular groups. IMHO, the next 'regime' will find it also has to continually fight off challengers if they want to remain in power.

It ain't over yet, and I can't dismiss the nagging feeling the next regime could turn out to be worse than the one it is replacing.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

CubaMark you strangely I doubt that that issue will arise in the trial. Can't tell you why, just my sense of events and personalities.
••

Tootin' I suspect yoa re correct BUT I see this more of a test of the coalition than the Iraqis.
Iraqi was indeed a "manufactured state" with disparate poeples welded together through terror.

But Iraqis as Iraqis instead of their component peoples should be afforded the opportunity to resolve their own problems and if they need help from the world community that request should come from them and WHO helps should be determined by them - not invading forces.

This is a hinge point in my mind, much riding on the decisions made in the next very short while.
I see no short term ease for Iraqis but a change in the nature of the world help at this point could perhaps cool some of the other forces at play which I suspect are more geared to getting the US out of the Middle East.

It will be interesting to see if the bombing slows down.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

CubaMark...

Do you think he will be assassinated in the next few hours or days?


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Bang-on macdoc!


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Bang-on macdoc!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Guess that was a two handed quickdraw eh Tootin  

CNN is ALSO calling for "no gloating".

[ December 14, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: MacDoc ]


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Shucks... I wuz jus' practicin'...


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

... now what? I guess this will justify all the bloodshed and turmoil continuing in the area... not to mention the billions spent in the effort to capture him and the billions more to be spent on the "rebuilding" effort. But it was probably worth it for control of the almighty oil!  

Big deal.


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

The capture of S.H. is undoubtedly a cause for celebration. It is good for all of humanity when people who have perpetrated so much horror upon others - are brought to justice.

However - he didn't act alone and it will be interesting to see if he will be allowed to talk - and to whom (Iraqi court? International Court? American tribunal?)

The most incredible aspect of this event - to me - is that S.H. was taken alive. Quite surprising. I would have thought that his death at the point of capture would have been far preferable - for both Saddam and his captors.

It will be interesting, to say the least, to see how this all pans out. My cynical side suspects his assassination by a distraught Iraqi national is being considered as a possible best solution. But my optimistic side is hoping for an Indpendent Iraqi public enquiry and trial.


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## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

Actually, I am not surprised he was captured alive. But I will be surprised if he lives long enough to get to trial.

And i am not so certain it would be the Iraqis that kill him...

I'd keep an eye out for another three-name assassin to somehow get close enough to Saddam to kill him. Probably very publicly and with CNN covering every second of the event from 37 angles.

And you can bet that the Bush Administration is going to milk this capture for every vote it can get. No matter the outcome.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

This is outstanding news!    

It should be interesting to see what comes next. No one believes he was actually directing the terrorist attacks that have been happening in the past months but there is little doubt that, as long as he reamained unnaccounted for, he could still strike fear into the hearts of many Iraqis. 

There was always the thought " what if the Americans pull out early....and he comes BACK??!?" It was this fear that kept many from stepping forward and telling all they knew about the former dictator. His reputation for brutality was second to none, and everyone in Iraq feared him.

The latest word I'm hearing is that he will be tried by a tribunal in Iraq for genocide against his own people. This would be the best thing for all involved.

He is being interrogated by US forces right now, at an undisclosed location. It should be very interesting to see what they come up with.  

And I don't share our resident conspiracy theorists supposition that he will be conveniently 'assasinated' while he is in custody. He is under very heavy guard and putting him on trial before the people of Iraq and forceing him to answer for his terrible crimes would send a very strong message to any and all other dictators...both in the middle east and around the world.

It will tell all of them that even a long-term despot who has masses of money and a huge amount of weapons is not safe from capture and prosecution.

And THAT just might change a whole lot of things. In a whole lot of places.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

macnutt...



> And THAT just might change a whole lot of things. In a whole lot of places.


Do some of those places include the USA ?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Bush speech.
No mention of Iraqi help in finding him.

No mention of who is to bring him to trial.

Big tribute to US efforts - rah rah  

C-

I'm also getting weary of Saddams dental state.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

bush was like a kid on x-mas morning - could barely hold back his smirk on several occassion during his speech

anyone check Hailiburton sotck on the Nikkei?
i assume a spike in their stock price is in order

at least martin congratulated the Iraqi people

bush only has dreams of "4 more years"


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## Viivis (Oct 10, 2003)

If Bush is smart he'll simply say here's your man and bow out and get the hell out of there. The US has no real use for him. If you know anything of the history between the US and Saddam then you'll know he can do much more damage now then when he was running around. 

There are probably a lot of people in the 'special' intelligence community in the US that are shaking their heads wondering why they took him alive.  

Stupid move if Bush tries to be a smartass now. But then hey, it's Bush. Not the best record so far.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Can we expect an orchestrated attempt at freeing Saddam from his captors? Can we expect him to be killed during the melee with neither side certain where the fatal bullet or 'knife-in-the-back' came from?

It would depend on who is playing the part of Saddam's rescuers, eh!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

An Iraqi







...interesting.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

For the record, I am merely thinking out loud just now, and not making predictions or expressing my wish for this to happen. However, I wonder if Hussein shall ever get to the point of a trial? From a previous thread in which we discussed the 40th anniversary of the assassination of JFK, I can't help but think of Lee Harvey Oswald leaving an entire nation/world wondering what actually happened in Dallas. I can't imagine CNN carrying such a trial live, with Hussein starting to go into the US involvement in providing him with weapons to fight again Iran in the 1980's. 

We shall see.........


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I suppose the US could, based on previous experience for extraction of information, choose to put him on a plane to Syria









There's a subversive editor at CNN on Sunday! They were running newsreel of previous appearances of Saddam and included close-ups of him meeting with Donny Rumsfeld! Wonderful (I guess that editor is on a plane to Syria right now too).

Saddam doesn't appear to have a backbone and without thugs to do his dirty work will probably spill his guts. The thing is, a lot of the information he received from his commanders and scientists was pure fantasy because they also feared for their lives. The nuclear program received boat loads of money but the scientists were unable to put anything together under the eyes of the UN inspectors.

It seems to me that the appropriate sentence for Hussein would be to send him back to the hole in the ground for the rest of his life - since he willingly crawled into the pit in the first place.

Joe Liebermann says he shouldn't be tried by the ICC in the Hague as they can't confer the death penalty. But killing him would make him a martyr. Slap him in a hole in the ground and feed him oatmeal. Let him experience the conditions he meeted out to so many of his people while living in luxury. Death is too easy an escape.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Viivis...


> If Bush is smart he'll simply say here's your man and bow out and get the hell out of there.


Bush is not smart!

Dr.G... You're right!

That's why I twice made reference to Saddam Hussein never reaching trial on this thread, but somehow, it has to be "missioned" so as to complement rather than discredit the Bush administration. There is too much at stake.

As stated earlier by others, Saddam is probrably quite willing, and even anxious to appear in front of a world tribunal to spill his guts and take a few coalition countries down with him.

It would be just as effective as any WMD!

But there are also many politicians and business people around the world who would like to silence Saddam. After 30 years of being in power there may even be some Canadians who fear being mentioned as well.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Darntootin', I hope that I am NOT correct in this speculation. We shall see.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Dr. G...

The word 'assassin' comes from the Middle East.

The reason(s) for going into Iraq was manufactured for the benefit of US VP Cheney's company (Haliburton Oil) and his cohorts, including their front-man, G.W. Bush, to access the oil in Iraq. Any long-drawn-out trial could delay them getting their greedy hands on that precious oil.

They have gone too far, and are in too deep, to let some despot's trial get in the way. As to the morality of having Saddam killed, remember they were willing to sacrifice several hundred American military lives to get this far, and have expressed no qualms to watching more die or be injured for their own gains.

The key will be to avoid making Saddam appear to die as a martyr.

They'll try... and it may not initially look like an assassination.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Darntootin', I am aware of the derivation of the word "assassin", which would make it all the more ironic. I concur with your view that "The key will be to avoid making Saddam appear to die as a martyr" should my fears come to pass. I am wondering why a person that said he would rather die a martyr than to be captured by the US could be captured without a single gunshot fired?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Cos he's a coward with no moral principles? Hussein hasn't a single honourable cell in his body. He probably still thinks he can bribe his way out or cut a deal by threatening to reveal things that a variety of people would rather be forgotten.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Jim, with his estimated $4 billion US stashed away is Swiss bank accounts, according to conservative estimates, anything is possible.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Dr.G...

The irony is what I was trying to project; not challenge anyone's knowledge.

As for his capture, I think he was totally caught by surprise. He never expected to be found. Especially by Coalition Forces!

As for his preference to die as a martyr rather than be captured, such declarations were perhaps made at the height of his ruling days... however, a man reduced in social stature to hiding in a hole in the ground, can lose much of the bravado he once had.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

i think that the war and constant moving from place to place has forced saddam hussein to finally face a cold, harsh reality

"drunk with power" doesn't even to begin to describe him

he is cooperating so he can avoid execution
he knows that the end game has come

now, back to Iraq and its people - a very different question without any answers

and how this war affects the region and the world is something that runs a chill up my spine - uniltateral military might is now the trump card of choice

notice how little coverage Russia's war with Chechnya is getting? 'cause they're "terrorists" - if you label someone with that, you can do what you want - the die has been cast

the world is NOT a safer place today


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

I witnessed a little of the news coverage of Hussein's "capture" today. One of the rare times when a large event and my focus on a TV have coincided. The coverage was provided by CNN - exclusive they say. I noticed a couple of things that seemed a little strange to me.

The commentators always referred to Hussein with the familiar term "Saddam". Have I missed something during my exile from the tube? Is this man such a common face on television broadcasts that we should relate to him on a personal level? Is he an acquaintance that I should recall? Why would I want to be on familiar terms with this person? I am mystified.   

I also noticed that there was usually a split screen when footage of Hussein undergoing a medical exam was shown - half "recent" film and half images of Hussein in other circumstances where his identity was clear. It seemed there was a constant pressure to identify the man captured as the man we all know as Hussein. Odd.

Now, I may be a cynical old coot who can't see what is clearly a "triumph" for the democratic world - but I have to ask...are we certain the true villain has been apprehended here? There has been a lot of really good conversation on another thread about the deceit some people employed to hide certain matters concerning Kennedy's assassination. Many people are convinced the moon landings were a hoax - I am at a loss to refute them.

I guess I am asking for some direct evidence that the event we have been shown is genuine. As all of you have pointed out, there is a lot at stake here.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Yeah, I'm sure it's all genuine and on the "up 'n up"...heck, if I had Saddam (my 'ol pal) stuffed down an eight foot hole and the Yanks were offering 25Million for the bas*ard, I'd turn him in too. 25mil can buy anyone a nice secure compund far and away from the US and Iraq. I'm surprised it took as long as it did.

There's no doubt that the Iraqies will execute 'ol Saddam very shortly after he's turned over by the Americans. Very few Arabs will think of him as a martir, but the ones that will... we, will have to worry about.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

They say you can hide the eyes properly and I have no doubt what so ever in my mind the guy shown is Saddam.

There is still a sense of power in his face and eyes tho there is also defeat and resignation.
His acts may have been inhuman but he IS. It shows.

There could be NO gain in any sort of fakery here. Too many up close and personal associates of Saddam. It's the US action from here on that counts.
Right now it's odiously political.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

the americans missed a golden public relations opportunity
when the capture was annouced by the u.s. appointed viceroy of iraq, the iraqi representative was standing right next to him

i'm no spin doctor, but i would have had the iraqi make the announcement, especially since a large contingent of iraqi press were there

would have been a good coup to show the iraqis and the world that the u.s. really was there to help them and not just help themselves to some oil

gotta go check how my haliburton stock did in the over seas market...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm betting your imaginary Halliburton stock is going to take a pretty big hit in the next few months, macspectrum. I'd sell it now.

You see, several prominent Republicans are now calling for a congressional investigation into allegations of Halliburton's recent 'overcharging' practices.

One of them is none other than George W. Bush. Yeah...THAT one.  

And I have no doubt whatsoever that the US will be keeping Saddam totally safe and sound so he can stand trial and answer publicly for all of his crimes against the Iraqi people. I'm pretty sure the trial will be held in Iraq and that he will be judged by both a tribunal of Iraqi judges and possibly even a jury of Iraqi citizens.

When he is forced to publicly 'fess up' to some of his more horrific crimes at a public trial, then many of the people who've been whining so very loudly about this invasion of Iraq will have the choice of shutting up or being seen to be defending this terrible scumbag and saying that he should still be in power.

In fact, that is already happeneing. Joe Liberman...who some say should be occupying the office of Vice-President right now....said, on today's "Meet The Press" that the current frontrunner for the Democratic nomination (Howard Dean) "that If he had HIS way Hussein would still be in power, instead of in jail!"

It was a terrible public blow to the only guy who...up till today...seemed to present a real challenge to Bush in the next election. From a very prominent member of his OWN party, as well.

And we haven't even heard the half of it yet.

Once Saddam is on the witness stand, he will reveal all sorts of embarassing stuff about how several very prominent European countries violated every rule in the UN book by signing secret contracts to swap oil for certain forbidden technologies. They also did a whole bunch of illegal work in UN-sanctioned Iraq that will turn out to be a major embarassment for them.

We are talking very recent history here. Not the two decade-old crap about how the US "supported and armed" Saddam during the nasty period of the Iranian revolution.

That little revelation might just explain why some of the prominent European countries were so reluctant to join in and go after the old tyrant. (guess it was "all about oil", Darntootin! You just had the wrong country! )  

The real story will unfold over the next little while. Watch and see for yourself. 

It could bring down a few governments (not in the USA, sorry) and it may just force a major reform on the gridlocked and largely ineffective United Nations. I see this as a good thing. Long overdue.  

Oh yes....and there was one more little nugget of news that got pushed off the front pages by Saddam's arrest.

A reprter for the Telegraph in London has unearthed a document which has been authenticated by numerous middle eastern experts in Europe. It apparently was found in Pakistan during some sort of raid on one of the former leaders of Al Queda.

It says that the leader of the 9/11 attcks...Mohammed Atta...was trained at a terrorist camp in...

...wait for it.... *BAGHDAD* !! 









I'll try to dig up a link and post it here. I probably won't have to, though. I have foreign sat service and this was huge news all over Europe just a few hours before Saddam's capture pushed everything else off the air.

But I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more about it in the very near future. 









Better warm up all of your very best conspiracy theories, people. You're gonna get quite a workout in the next few months.

BTW...do you guys like your crow served with veggies, or plain?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I can't make the link work.  

The newspaper is The Daily Telegraph and the journalist's name is Con Coughlin. He was interviewed on several News programs in the US just today. Even though everyone is talking about the arrest of Saddam.

Try for yourself, perhaps you'll have better luck than I did. (I can NEVER get URL's to work here at ehMac! Very frustrating)  

Or you can wait and read about it in the major newspapers. It's pretty big news so we aill all be hearing more about it in the near future.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

One final prediction before I head off to bed:

Some clever political cartoonist will use that now-famous shot of the doctor peering into Saddam's mouth with a flashlight and write a caption like "Nope...no weapons of mass destruction in here"









Man...did old Saddam ever look BAD or WHAT? 









Sort of like he needed a good Baath.

(sorry....I just couldn't resist)


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

Would that be tofu crow or the real thing?









I listened with interest to the French and German ambassadors to the USA. They quietly proclaimed this was the time for global solidarity - I wonder what they mean? All European leaders are innocents aren't they?  

I got the impression the ambassadors were not happy that Hussein was alive and talking. Maybe it's not too late to fix that.

Should get interesting.

I used to have 5 BCRIC shares but I divested long ago.


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

Shiite Macnutt -that was baad!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Sorry LG...I'm a bit giddy right now.

















And I suspect that you are exactly right. The USA has every intention of putting Saddam up on the chair and coaxing him to say exactly where all the bodies are buried.

And you can just BET that some of the top people in France and Germany will be sweating rather profusely over the next few months while all of this plays out.

Probably packing their gear for a hasty exit as well.

I'm just _LOVIN_ it!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Be careful Macnutt that article was written by a guy who has a vested interest in proving that link. He wrote a book call Saddam: The Secret Life in 2002.

Interesting place where it's for sale.  
http://shop.conservatives.com/item.jsp?ID=2635 

Word On Books


with Jeremy Fenton


Saddam: The Secret Life


By Con Coughlin
Published by Macmillan


One of the biggest claims to come from British journalist Con Coughlin’s biography of Saddam Hussein is that two weeks before the World Trade Centre attacks on the United States, the dictator placed his military on the highest military alert since the Gulf War. Coughlin is convinced that the “dangerous and murderous dictator” has provided funding, logistical support and training for the al-Qaeda network.


The other details that emerge from his book are no less shocking, or even believable in some cases. But the evidence and eyewitnesses (including family members) that the meticulous Coughlin quotes give a veracity that is hard to deny.


The picture of Saddam painted is fascinating, complex and often bewildering.


He is, in many ways, the ultimate proof that power corrupts – if not sends you right over the edge into a madness of paranoia, delusion and self-perpetuating violence.


This is a man who sponsors Islamic fundamentalism while “drinking whisky and womanising”, who preaches the sanctity of the family while severely mistreating (even killing) his own, who essentially demands love and devotion at the barrel of a gun. There is no end to such contradictions in the life of Saddam.


Coughlin’s book is a comprehensive – even exhaustive – look into arguably one of the world’s key players, even if he only occupies that position through his own inflated sense of ego and the geological chance of sitting atop vast oil fields. * Unfortunately, it’s sometimes hard to separate Coughlin’s own obvious dislike (and seemingly US-centric viewpoints) for the man from the facts in what should have been the definitive book on the dictator.* 

That said, it’s still well-worth reading for a staggering look into the life of a bloody megalomaniac. And no doubt the British government will quote it extensively as an ‘intelligence report’."

Coughlin has good credentials but even the reviewer here picked up the agenda as being US Centric and his book should be quite popular now.

I'm not sure the news is very new or perhaps the source is suspect. The US and British press would have been trumpeting a bit more. At this point with goodly sums of money at play for "revealing information" separating fact from fiction gets ever harder.

With a US election also in play







- it's a complete hall of mirrors.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Well, Macnutt, my left coast buddy...Saddam will never get a chance to spill his guts on the witness stand, because he'll be tried as a *war criminal*. None of the other "wheeling and dealing" will be relevant to the war crimes charges, so they'll make sure that information will not be publicly available as to emberass those involved...well, maybe with France and Germany they'll make an exeption. Canada too, remember that "Giant Cannon" thingy some Canadian got assassinated by the Israely Massad over? 

He will be tried quickly, if not quietly and executed.

The rest of his relatives will be given refugee status in Canada, so they can spend the rest of his hidden billions plus the 25 million, provided, the Yanks pay up.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

gerald,
you've bought into the media hype and spin doctoring by the U.S., instead of keeping your eye on the big picture

• Usama bin Laden is still not in custody - after all he publicly claimed responsibility for 9/11- yeah, remeber that guy?
• Afghanistan is a mess - we have OUR (Canada's) troops over there and the U.S. cuts uf out of Iraq building - tyvm - remember the 4 brave Canadians that were murdered by a trigger happy U.S. pilot? do you forget? i don't
• U.S. economy is in the toilet - our dollar is great evidence - more americans lost health care
• richest country in the history of our planet cannot afford to offer health care to its own citizens
• U.S. has now set a world wide example - call 'em terrorists and bomb the s*it out of them - the Chechnyans are paying the price for that one - yeah, the chechnyans trying to get from under the boot of Russian (read Soviet) imperialism - ah, but "terrorism" must be stopped goes the mantra
• U.S. militrary base leases are soon too expire in Saudi Arabia - and now the U.S. moves into Iraq - how conveeeeenient - just a hop, skip and a jump away - no frequent flyer miles tho'
• still waiting for WMD #1, never mind #1000
remember Dubya's speech about "we gotta get d'em WMDs?"
• U.S. now asking for UN's help - the same "European chocolate makers" bush denounced earlier
• as for skeletons, why do you think Tricky Dickey Cheney hasn't been seen for a while on the Sunday talk shows? He had dinner and was buddy buddy with Saddam Hussein for crying out loud, oh and yeah, Haliburton paid for it all

c'mon gerald, you're not dumb enough to believe all the hype and spinning, are ya?

you know that over all, this is a terrible example for the world - invading a sovereign nation as a pre-emptive measure of "cowboy diplomacy"

oh and one more thing;
Bush warns Taiwan - don't even think about leaving China" - lemme repeat that "don't even think about leaving China"
yeah, you read correctly, Bush - messenger boy for the neo-cons, alleged big anti-communist and anti-dictator is telling a country not to even try to free themselves from the boot of communism
the world has officially gone nuts - even Ronnie Ray-gun woke up and said; "What the f*ck?"


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

macnutt - puleeze stop with the Bush "with us or against us" rhetoric. It's below you. The millions of people who were against the invasion (inc. me) were not for Hussein. I don't need to remind you, but the invasion was built on the pretext of clear and imminent danger for weapons of mass destruction. The US had never uttered a word of concern over the mass killings and murders commited by Hussein during his entire reign - until it became politically expedient - which was AFTER the invasion and AFTER the troops failed to find any evidence of WMD.

I heard one report that Hussein will be tried in a matter of weeks. The outcome is a foregone conclusion but it will be convenient to summarily execute him. Personally, I'd rather he be publically humiliated for the rest of his sorry life.

Oh, and I guess this is the last nail in the coffin regarding the justification for the use of a bunkerbuster bomb in Baghdad that leveled a house and its 13 civilian occupants - all of one family including several kids, in late March, on the pretext that Hussein was thought to be there.

And here's a conspiracy theory for the books. The DNA testing that was done is extremely accurate - providing 1 in a billion odds that its the right guy. However, it totally depends on the authenticity of the DNA its being compared to. So, what if the real Hussein planted DNA evidence from a so-called "double" and then was actually the guy who provided the information as to the doubles whereabouts? Afterall, who is looking for Saddam Hussein today?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Talk about "spin doctoring"  Not enjoying the taste of that crow? Perhaps you'd like a little dab of barbecue sauce to make it go down a bit more easily?









Okay...macspectrum:

-Usama bin Laden is indeed still on the run. But we haven't heard very much from him of late and even saudi Arabia is far less likely to support his activities now that terrorism..against Arabs fer goshsakes...has now hit their own country. He is working with far less in every way than he was even a year ago. 

Besides, what makes you think that he won't be rooted out sometime very soon. They are still actively pursuing him and they took out one of his main planners a while back who had all sorts of interesting data in his possesion.

Three days ago you could have said that "Saddam is still on the run". Not now. (I'll throw another crow on the barbie for you. Just in case.)  

-"Afghanistan is a mess". No kidding. But that statement could have been made and would have been applicable any time during the past few decades. It is less of a mess right now than it was two years ago (women are no longer being executed publicly for wearing the wrong clothing, for example)

It will take a VERY long time to bring Afghanistan up to speed and turn it into a civilised place. Don't expect miracles overnight.

-"US economy is in the toilet". I guess it might seem that way if you aren't following it very closely. The US economy grew for the past two months at between seven and eight per cent. This is a rate not seen for more than two decades and is almost unprecedented in American history. The Dow is now over ten thousand and even the Democrats (who were planning to use "the economy" as one of their major campaigning platforms) are now looking elsewhere for some way to criticise President Bush.

-"The richest country in the world can't afford health care for its citizens" This plaintive cry from the left is a very old one and, as usual, it cleverly omits several facts...while twisting a few others to add shock value.

The US has had Medicare (free health care for the desperately poor) for longer than Canada has. In fact, that's where WE got the name from. It is quite limited, but it's there. Eight out of every ten Americans have some sort of private medical coverage that they or their employers pay for, every month. We, in Canada, like to think we have a "Universal and Government funded (read: FREE) health care system" but we have an enormous tax and debt load to show for it. Not to mention a system that is currently failing and completely unsustainable in the long run. Our much-vaunted system noiw eats up almost half of every Provincial budget and that level will skyrocket when the baby boomers start using it very heavily over the next twenty years or so. 

The USA can't afford universal free health care and neither can WE. No country can.

-The war on terrorism seems to be going rather well. I haven't noticed any major attacks on the level of 9/11 since Bush started going after terrorists with a passion. In fact, a great number of them are now in jail or on the run. The rest are certainly re-examining their career options...especially after recent events.

Would you have preferred the Clinton/Gore approach? Just ignore it and hope it'll go away? Or the laughibly naieve Carter policy of negotiating with them?

I seem to recall that a combination of those two ended up providing North Korea with them means to produce some shiny new nuclear weapons...in return for a solemn promise that they would not do so.

-The US is quite happy that their lease is up on the bases in Saudi Arabia. Time to get out of that failing monarchy before the sh*t really hits the fan and, besides, it removes one of the main arguments that Usama has been using to rally his troops to attack the infidel. Armed foreign soldiers...especially FEMALE ones...in the Holy Land is something that is totally abhorrent to almost all of the males in that region.

(we are hoping to change that regressive attitude in the future, BTW)  

-"Weapons of mass destruction". I should have expected that you'd trot that one out again (you guys are getting rather short of stuff to work with these days).

How do you know that something won't be found now that the old tyrant is safely locked away? Some people might just begin to get a bit more chatty about this stuff in the coming days now that they know he isn't coming back. I should remind you that Saddams elite troops were all equipped with very expensive chemical weapons suits and that these things have a very short shelf-life once taken out of their containers.

Wonder why they had them out of the packs and ready to be deployed when the US overran them last spring?

Hmmm...perhaps I should stock up on a few more crows for you guys. You may be having a bigger meal fairly soon. 

-"The US is now asking the UN to participate in Iraq" Well why not? They didn't do ANY of the heavy lifting that was required to enforce the seventeen seperate UN edicts that were issued against Saddam. They just kept saying "or else"...and there never WAS an "or else".

Saddam knew that. So he just went ahead and thumbed his nose at them. He had cut so many side deals with France and Germany that he KNEW the UN would never move against him.

BTW...watch for all of this to come out at the trial. Documents will be produced and witnmesses called to testify about this illegal relationship that was very much in violation of everything that the UN stands for. Or STOOD for, before it was corrupted.

And watch France lose its status as a permanent member of the UN security council as a result of all this. About bloody time, too.


-I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Iraq was a soverign nation". I've heard this from macdoc as well, and it puzzles me. Every single thing that "Iraq" did or said publicly...all the wars that it started, all the people that it murdered...was the sole result of Saddam Hussein's decisions. No one else in the country had ANY sort of say in what went on at all. One guy.

It is a soverign nation that WAS in the grip of an evil dictator. Now it's not.

But it's still a soverign nation. (and the vast majority of Iraqis seem to be quite happy with this new situation, by the way)

Jwoodget....while I would not ever question your expertise in the field of DNA...or anything medical, for that matter...I would just like to point out that the DNA samples that the US doctors were using for comparison came from Saddams two dead sons and from several other members of his immediate family.

Oddly enough, the few members of Saddam's family that weren't murdered by the old tyrant have been quite co-operative on this.

Go figure.

[ December 15, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Macdoc....Jeremy Fenton's review of Con Coghlin's book about Saddam (that you so kindly posted) is rather lavish in it's praise of that journalist and his abilities. It calls Coghlin "meticulous" and says he has made an exhaustive study of the man that is backed up by eyewitness accounts from family members. 

The very worst thing he can find to say about Coghlin is that he is "US-Centric"...and he mentions it several times.

By that measure, I suppose we could all be called "Mac-Centric"...as if that were something _BAD_ .









An Al Qaeda terrorist training camp operating in Baghdad. One that helped train the leader of the 9/11 attack!

This is VERY big news! It was booted off the headlines by Saddam's capture, but still got Con Coghlin several live interviews on major US networks yesterday. I watched two of them.

You'll be hearing a lot more about this in the very near future.

Trust me on this.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Uday and his bro are sunning themselves in Puerto Vallerta macnutt. They sent Dad a Christmas card in Penang and one to the plastic surgeon in Rio









My hope is that George W. followed Hussein's idea and had a few body doubles trained up. Chances are that out of 10 doubles, 9 would do a better job than the real deal.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Who knows, Jim...you may be right.









Although the one Bush that we've got right now seems to be a roaring success. It looks as though he will be around for a second term so we'll all have lots more time to bash away at him before this decade is out.

But I'm certain that the dozen or so Hussein family members who voluntarily submitted their DNA samples long before the war started are not doubles. They're the real item. So are the two dead vermin offspring.

And anyone who looks at that video of Saddam knows that's really him, too.   

People seem to think that plastic surgery can work miracles these days, but I think that is more myth than reality. No matter how much money you spend.

It sure hasn't helped Michael Jackson.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

macnutt, you are right about it not helping Michael Jackson.

Here is a computer aged photo of him by ABC news that show how he would really look today without plastic surgery.










Pretty tragic when you compare it to the disfigured face we now know.

Cheers


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

So true Sinc. And so sad.  

There is nothing wrong with the way he would look right now, sans surgery. I have no idea whay he wants to look like a circus clown instead (was he wearing mascara and lipstick in that recent mugshot photo? This guy is strange.)

Now...back to the subject of this thread.

Hmmmm....I seem to have lost all my playmates. No one care to comment?

Crow got yer tongue?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

You are in broadcast mode macnutt. You seem to have switched off your earpiece (or at least switched it to selective hearing....).









Besides, your rhetoric is stale. I suggest you try the Alliance trick and rename yourself - smugnutt might be appropriate


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Hmmmm....I seem to have lost all my playmates. No one care to comment?


not at all gerald.

debate is very much up my allery and i enjoy it very much
being lectured to with political rhetoric and dogma gets boring very quickly

as i have said before
is it a good thing saddam hussen is in custody? YES - only an idiot would answer otherwise

is it good the way it was done?
NO - a terrible precedent has been set by the supposed "good guy" - the UN is now a joke - world cooperation is at a standstill

is the world a safer place?
NO - seige mentality never amounts to long term solutions - see Israel - are they safe?

was it a good thing the u.s. invaded iraq?
NO - a terrible precedent has been set - pre-emptive invasion insttead of world wide diplomacy and cooperation- see Gulf War I

was the invasion about freedom for Iraq?
NO - see bush's pre-emnptive statement on taiwan's attempt at freedom from communism


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Macspectrum...

-The UN was _ALREADY_ a joke! It has been ever since it's original noble reason for being was corrupted and sold out by a few key members for monetary gain. 

This will become self-evident in the coming months as Saddam is put on public trial. Expect a parade of very sheepish French and German (and semi-sheepish Russian) officials to step up and begin answering some very tough questions. Just before they are forced into early retirement.

And watch the whole world demand some pretty big changes in the way that the UN operates. This is LONG overdue.

-You agree that it is good that Saddam is gone but you disagree with the way it was done. 

How would you have done it?

Would you have preferred that it was done by the UN? If so, then see above.

The world is most definitely a safer place now than it was a week ago. And it's a whole heck of a lot safer than it was when Saddam was running Iraq and the Taliban was running Afghanistan.

These two major victories are most definitely not going unnoticed in the shadowy world of tyrants and dictators. They have now been put on notice and they definitely feel more personally vulnerable than they did in the past.

This is all good. Too bad so many here seem to be in some sort of ideologically-driven denial about it.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

i noticed you neatly side stepped bush's hypcrtical stance on taiwan - a country that wants to free itself from communist oppression and bush told them not to even think about it - guess not much oil in taiwan these days, eh?

bill krystol (PNAC engineer) would be proud


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Taiwan is a sticky problerm indeed. China is an emerging powerhouse and the US has to be very careful to keep them in a friendly stance.

Just imagine what sort of a world we would have right now had Nixon not made his historic trade agreements with China. If they were still totally mired in a failing Marxist system they would almost certainly have lashed out at someone by now. They have the power to do this.

Instead, we are very friendly trading partners and they are rapidly modernising. This keeps everyone happy.

I don't agree with the policy of abandoning Taiwan to the mercies of China. Not many do.

But I can see the reasoning behind it.

Okay, Michael....I've dealt with the items that you said i was neatly side-stepping.

Care to do the same?


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

*so many here seem to be in some sort of ideologically-driven denial*

Macnutt - don't be silly - is the ideology of democracy and respect for others just... closed minded?

THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY 

*	Sovereignty of the people.
*	Government based upon consent of the governed.
*	Majority rule.
*	Minority rights.
*	Guarantee of basic human rights.
*	Free and fair elections.
*	Equality before the law.
*	Due process of law.
*	Constitutional limits on government.
*	Social, economic, and political pluralism.
*	Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation, and compromise.

Ever since shoving aside one of these pillars in the scuffle to gain entrance to the Whitehouse (do you deny that?), GWB and his crew have been chipping away at all the other pillars too. I'm not sure what their ideology is - but it doesn't seem to quite conform to democracy - thus the rather noisy reno job.

"Many here" are, I think, concerned about the shape of things to come.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I most definitely DO deny that he "shoved aside" any of the pillars of democracy in order to attain his present position. It was a close race. He won, Gore lost.

Apparently the American people agree with me on this. If not....then why did they follow that contested election up with a majority victory for George Bush's Republican Party two years later during the Congressional elections?

And only a year or so after THAT giant vote of confidence, the largest and most prosperous state in the Union switches from Democrat to Republican in an unprecedented recall and rejection of the American left?

And if Gore "wuz robbed" and was truly the choice of the majority of Americans...then why is he not even _RUNNING_ this time around? It should be a cakewalk for him! (It shoulda been a cakewalk last time around, too...after eight years of peace and prosperity)

He couldn't win then and he can't possibly win this time, either. A second defeat would be a terrible blow to the already decimated Democrats and would finally put to rest any claims that Bush was illegitimately elected.

They can't possibly have THAT....so Al Gore is not running this time around.

Gee...go figure.


As for the list you posted showing the basic foundations of a true democracy...I'd just like to gently point out that Canada currently falls a bit short on a couple of those points. Perhaps any criticsm should be directed inwards until we attain a full democracy here in our homeland.

Then, at that point, we can openly criticise the leaders of other countries for not being totally democratic.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Macnutt...

On China...


> Instead, we are very friendly trading partners and they are rapidly modernising. This keeps everyone happy.


The only reason Nixon was 'successful' was because China wanted him to be; not because he was a messiah to the Chinese COMMUNIST Government.

China has allowed many to wallow in the limelight of success while they (China) reap the benefits without having to answer for, among other issues, the denial of civil liberties to it's people. The only reason one perceives the notion that, as you say, "This keeps everyone happy" is simply because the United States of America willingly ignores, thus condones, China's constant denial of civil rights. The lack of civil rights, has meant extremely cheap labour, something being taken advantage of by the USA and other nations.

Token tsk-tsk-tsk doesn't cut it, and as soon as the DPRK (Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea) flexes it's military muscles, China will expose an aloofness towards the outside world, and distance itself from the USA faster than you can say: "Where's Taiwan?"

And Bush will be too frightened to aks the question himself!!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

China's current prosperity and rapid rush toward modernity depends totally on the continuation of the all-important international trade that is fueling it.

Take that trade away, and it would stall out immediately. they are not at "critical mass" yet and cannot fuel their own fires without this external lifeline. Yet.

China has a terrible record on human rights. As has every single other communist country that the planet has ever known. This is not news to anyone.

The changes are coming though, and they will keep on coming as the place begins to more closely resemble a modern western society. We dare not interrupt that process at this stage. Bush knows that.

And China will be the nation tasked to "deal with" Kim Jong Il when he finally gets so desperate that he lashes out from his failing Marxist state. China is VERY important and will become even more important to the future of the west in the coming years. That's why Bush pulled out all the stops and threw on a full-package Royal Welcome for the Chinese PM when he visited Washington a short time ago.

And I would be far more worried about the world if these two powerful nations _WEREN'T_ very close trading partners and acting all buddy-buddy.

Now...can we get back to Saddam?


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Macnutt...



> Now...can we get back to Saddam?


Maybe... maybe not...  

China's facade is friendly with the USA's facade...

While factions within China have begun to appreciate capitalism, others are less willing to give up Communism and Communist control. The present status will only remain until someone within China ruffles the wrong feathers. (Civil war) When it happens, the USA will be forced to take sides, and trust me... George Dbya Bush won't be able to fabricate a scenario convincing enough to roust Americans into attacking China the same way he lied about the reasons for attacking Iraq. The demise of Saddam Hussein and his reign was a lucky stroke. Now the question is... what nation(s) will he want to attack next before the next election? Iran? Kicking-ass on weak countries can be likened to fast-drawing against unarmed opponents.

North Korea, Russia and China are a different kettle of fish.

They can and, with itchy fingers, are more than willing to fight back!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Active terrorism against the continental USA is the main item on George W.'s plate ever since 9/11. It has become the primary focus of his first term as President.

I find it rather amusing (and a little desperate sounding) as I listen to the fading voices of the left moaning about how scared they are of George and how worried they are that he might just attack some other nation without any provocation.























Not gonna happen. No need for it.

Allow me to explain:

-the middle east has gone through an unprecedented awakening to a cold new reality in the last two years. That new reality is this....There is a new resolve from America. They CAN and WILL go after anyone who is raising hell in the area. And they will do it with shocking speed and terrible force.

And they will win. No question about it.

There will be no more pitting one Superpower against the other by pretending to be friendly to one side. There will be no more secret backroom deals with the most corrupt of the major European powers in order to buy their vote in the UN...and therefore paralyse that toothless giant into total inactivity. No matter how much oil you have...or who wants to buy it.

THAT sordid little chapter of UN history is now officially over. Finally.


-Another of the new realities is that US technology and US miltary might beats the living dogpoo out of German, French or even Russian gear. And, since they can't buy US stuff for love nor money these days....they are now terribly exposed. They have NO defences that will be effective against the Americans. None.

The despots and tyrants who used to feel pretty safe in their personal sandboxes are now left twisting in the wind. This is seriously scary stuff for them, because most bullies are also cowards at heart. When they no longer feel protected by their armies or their weapons...and when they realise that they may also one day be put on the witness stand and forced to explain their actions before the world....

Let's just say that it's changing the way these guys think about things. BIG TIME.    

Syria is already modifying it's stance on a whole range of terrorist-related issues. Jordan has always been pretty friendly and will become even more so. Iran was already in the early stages of a brand new popular revolution that will eventually lead to full democracy and a wholesale rejection of the "Islamic State". This was happenning long before George W. even thought about running for the big job.

This process has been hastened by the actions of George Bush during the past two years. It is inevitable at this point. No need to make any moves toward Iran at all. Just let it be...and watch it change on it's own. 

Saudi Arabia is a pretty big question mark right now. It seems pretty obvious that the House of Saud is headed for a fall. Hard to tell when, though. A newly democratic and very prosperous Iraq...right next door... will hasten the end of this corrupt monarchy as well. Probably sooner, rather than later.

(on a side note....I recieved a PM from MacJava yesterday. He is a resident of Saudi Arabia and he remarked that he was totally surprised by how many Saudis were openly celebrating the capture of Saddam.)

Times are a-changin all over the middle east. For the better. This is a good thing because the status quo was no longer acceptable.

For anyone.

[ December 16, 2003, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The British thought that too.  

What a joke.

YANKEE GO HOME......will never stop until they do.

The US is face increasing resistance both at home and abroad and enormous costs in trying to maintain this kind of futile effort.

They are already trying to weasel out of Iraq's debts and there's not one that's going to go along with it.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Oh....almost forgot.

North Korea (that is an area that you seem to be very concerned with, Darntootin) Here is what I think will happen on the northern sector of the Korean peninsula in the coming two or three years:

George W. will let it BAKE. Just sit back and let history take it's course, while currying great favor with the all-important Chinese. China has absolutely NO desire to let it's old client state rock the boat right now. they will be the very first to step in and deal with the tormented little gnome who is currently in charge of N. Korea.

This winter as many as four million North Koreans will begin to get hungry. VERY hungry.

And some of them are in the North Korean military. This is NOT a good omen for Kim Jong Il. His weapons factories are closing down, now that some of his best customers in the middle east are no longer shopping for new bombs and guns...and he has no real source of new money. The worst of the rogue states in the middle east were his best customers and his biggest single pipline of new cash. That is no longer the case.

He is becoming increasingly desperate.

So are his people.  

And I think this will all come to a head rather soon. But I think that Kim's despotic reign will end with a whimper and not a bang. He will be shot or poisoned or thrown in jail by some group very close to him and that will be IT. The new leaders of North Korea will immediately begin negotiations to re-unite the two Koreas....and we will all be able to breathe a little easier.


The North Koreans will also start to eat a little more regularly. They will agree to dismantle their nuclear weapons programs in exchange for massive food and economic aid to bring them up to speed with the prosperous south before the end of partition. 

Anyway....that's what I see coming.

Any comments?


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

*Any Comments?*

... well, I can certainly see why you like George so much.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Actually I've never met the man in person. But we did move in the same circles in the Texas oilpatch during the late seventies....and many of my long-term friends HAVE met him. Long before anyone thought that he would ever become President, BTW. (Even his Dad wasn't all that special at that time).

Every single one of them has told me...on several occaisions...that he was a scrupulously honest and straight talking man. He liked to party back then, but he was considered a "good guy" by everyone who knew him. A friend who could be trusted.

This is not easy praise to earn amongst oilpatch types. They tend to be hard-nosed, pragmatic and very basic in their views of the world around them. They are very much the modern cowboys of this era. Trust is everything and their word is their bond. They can smell a fake a mile away.

And every damn one of them liked George W.  


Having said all that...I would also like to say that I see a lot of obvious flaws in George W. No question about it.

But, given the two choices available at the time, I am confident that the American people made the better choice of the two.

And the polls seem to indicate that the Americans seem to think so too.  

If not, then Al Gore would be running for President right now...and fending off cheering crowds of admirers who would be holding up signs that say "YOU are the TRUE President!!"

That's not happening. Not even close. In fact the whole Democratic Party seems to be in serious decline right now. They are low in the polls and fighting amongst themselves while the whole ship sinks around them. 

The people who say the Democrats should be in control of the USA right now have to ignore and dismiss more facts every day...just to maintain their shaky position. In their own minds. They are busy playing "Pretend" while the world moves on and leaves them behind.

Does that tell you something?

It should.

[ December 17, 2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

It tells me that too many discussions are simplified down to an "A or B" scenario - with the assumption made that if the supposedly least miserable outcome (A) fails to completely satisfy you, then... well, you must be in love with option (B).

BTW - it seems that Saddam's capture has failed to improve the security and stability of the situation Iraq. And this is truly unfortunate. What a mess.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> ...it seems that Saddam's capture has failed to improve the security and stability of the situation Iraq.


and the world


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

macnutt....

What you're suggesting is the world had better get into line with Bush's thinking or pay the penalty of being invaded and forced into compliance...

Is this not the same as what Saddam Hussein did... only on a larger scale?


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

macnutt...

Forgot about North Korea for a minute!!?? 









The DPRK will go out with several loud mushroom whimpers heard around the world... especially in the good ol' USA.

Logic and common sense have seldom... nor will they now... determine the future.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

A bit of light seasonal relief in this serious debate... All in good taste of course


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

"They are already trying to weasel out of Iraq's debts and there's not one that's going to go along with it."

France, Germany to Help Relieve Iraq Debt


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## Guinness (Jan 4, 2002)

>> MacNutt: -- in response to a number of very well written and very interesting posts in this thread.

Your most recent posts make for a very good read. Thank you, they leave a lot to think about. However, I do have a number of concerns ...

First, on the one hand you make a number of good points regarding the inherent evil of Saddam's regime and the ethical requirement of the GWB administration and allies to over through that regime for the good of the oppressed peoples of Iraq, despite the fact that a substantial number of nations (most of whom support the war on terror as evidenced by their participation in the Afghani war) preached patience. You then turn around and look at North Korea and suggest that the correct course of action is to "Just sit back and let history take it's course". All of this despite the fact that the North Korean people are probably suffering even more than the Iraqi's did. Could you explain this juxtaposition of values to me?

Second, you condemn France, Germany, and Russia for their "do nothing" attitude and write it off as simply a matter of greedy economics on their part. You reference secret contracts and illegal shipments of arms and munitions without referencing how you think that Saddam might have gotten the huge amounts of cash that would be necessary to pay for these products. You fail to mention the possibility that these huge amounts of cash probably came form the US which was providing billions of dollars in export credits to Saddam in exchange for oil (the US was the leading importer of Iraqi oil right through 2002 to the tune of over 60% of all Iraqi oil exports), these credits where then used to purchase food as required under the food-for-oil program, thus freeing up Saddam's cash for use in the purchases of strategic materials from France, Germany and Russia as well as the US, China, North Korea, Great Britain and a host of other countries. Do you really think that the US should be blameless in this trail of cash? Do you really think that no-one in the US could see what was being done.

Thirdly, just as a point of consideration. Russia, Germany and France have all gone on record as viewing the Iraq invasion/liberation (call it what you will) as a needless war to be avoided at almost any cost. I find it mildly interesting that the three nations most strongly opposed to war are the ones who have the suffered the most from the devastation of wars recently fought on their own soil. I realize that it is hard to conceive of modern nation states taking that kind of altruistic view of events, but maybe, just maybe, they look at war differently than the US does.

Finally, doesn't it scare you just a little to think that we now have a lone superpower who has openly stated that they will never permit another country to develop an arms program which could equal it's own. Does it not worry you that that kind of power, in the hands of one government is a recipe for disaster.

Mike


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> ...*Russia, Germany and France have* all gone on record as viewing the Iraq invasion/liberation (call it what you will) as a needless war to be avoided at almost any cost. I find it mildly interesting that the three nations most strongly opposed to war are the ones who have the *suffered the most from the devastation of wars recently fought on their own soil.*


well said Mike

war, no matter what the justificaion, is a very messy business


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

The Bush administration lacks credibility on a number of fronts but it's the level of duplicity in handing international affairs that is perhaps the most damning because, unlike internal affairs, the administration has difficulty in suppressing dissent (not that they don't try - petty retaliation in trade being one clumsy weapon). Internally, the threat of labelling dissent as UNPATRIOTIC helps deal with most dissenters - along with the argument that the end justifies the means (except the capture of Hussein is not more the end than Bush's carrier landing debacle).

Perhaps the mixed messages with regard to who is and who isn't a possible new target for America's wrath helps keep all despots off-balance, but I doubt it. Rather, it reflects the fact that the Bush adminstration uses other, less noble criteria for selecting to whom its attentions will next be focussed upon. Supporters of Bush are left to explain the actions while in denial that there is any inconsistency.

Personally, I am disappointed that the worlds superpower acts unilaterally, is self-serving and is aggressive. The definition of a bully. It truly is "my way or the highway" and there's no room for alternative points of view. The US can afford to be magnanimous, to forgive dissent, to be constructive and to set an example. But what do you expect from a group of politicians who sit by and let millions of Americans live in poverty, crime and without access to healthcare? The administration is not caring. To be so apparently would appear to show weakness. Does George W. really care about the loss of US lives in Iraq apart from the negative press that accompanies it?

The irony is that the US government commands the attention of the world but chooses to issue orders (in God's name!) rather than assistance. This is not a sign of greatness but of greed and self-interest. The US government does not rule the world and if it continues on the current track will build antagonism with not only its enemies but its friends. 

If only the rest of the world could confiscate the car keys of the US while the administration sobers up.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

> The irony is that the US government commands the attention of the world but chooses to issue orders (in God's name!) rather than assistance. This is not a sign of greatness but of greed and self-interest. The US government does not rule the world and if it continues on the current track will build antagonism with not only its enemies but its friends.


A truer statement hasn't been said, I'm speaking of the antagonism of enemies and friends but this has already begun with the enemies striking the US on 9/11 and the friends have begun with the anti Iraq war countrys that stood up to the US and said in a loud and clear voice "NO". In Portugal(Portugal was in Iraq during Desert Storm1 with 4 destroyers and combat troops) for example I don't know if they sent troops or if anything but they did support the invasion of Iraq, the people on this litle Iberian country were overwhelmingly opposed to the governments support of the US but they went along with the invasion anyways fearing economic repercussions  . From what I see on tv channels across the globe is that the US is looked upon as the country that holds diplomacy and the end of a gun.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Guiness...

Excellent overview.

My concern is that too many Americans are willing to sit tight and let "history take it's course". IMHO, it could stem from the comfortable and fuzzy warm position of feeling powerful, impregnable, and in total control of the world.

However, whatever the reasons for Americans' acceptance of the Bush administration's present military activities, the complacency and apathy of Americans could also be fueled by a false sense of righteousness.

However, except for 911, there have been no major military attacks on mainland USA. 911 has been labeled a terrorist attack, thus I agree with you that the USA has yet to experience long term and devastating loss of life that military in-your-face bang-bang war inevitably causes. Nor have they seen the destruction of America's infrastructure in the manner still fresh in the minds of Europeans. The possibility of war bring fought in downtown USA seems ludicrous to most Americans. They may perceive their nation too overwhelmingly powerful for any other nation to even think of attacking, or, heaven forbid, succeed!

Still... the metaphor of David and Goliath is timeless.

A COUPLE (THREE) OBSERVATIONS...

Under Homeland Security, Americans may end up with less rights and freedom than the countries they profess to be liberating. For example, since 911, anyone can be labeled a dissident, and held in prison for an indefinite period of time, or until the government decides to check the validity of their own accusations.

For some time now, CNN has been expounding on the evils of "exporting of American jobs". The countries named include Canada. US companies accused of exporting jobs have also been named on the program. Does that mean CNN is subliminally suggesting the boycott of those companies? China and Mexico seem to be at the top of the list of offendingcnations.

Now we hear, today, the USA is considering revisiting NAFTA to make self-serving changes.

The point of the above is to point out the USA may be headed for a rude awakening. That's why I harp on watching North Korea. Japan certainly doesn't view North Korea's threats as insignificant. Nor does South Korea. In fact both nations are becoming more and more skittish.

I am too. The scenarios I have described on this, and similar threads, reveal my own trepidations of impending military activity from North Korea against the USA, with the gnawing possibility China will intervene at a most convenient time for their own self-interest. That time may come after South Korea is defeated; Taiwan is again an undisputed part of China, and enough damage has been done to Japan and the American psyche to elevate China to the role of the world's major superpower.

China doesn't need our "western economy' as much as we need their cheap labour. China may well see immigration of foreign investments and industries as inexpensive technological training programs.

It won't be long before they could hold all the rump cards... or make crucial chess moves.

Ignoring 'David' may prove to be the USA's Achilles heel. (gotta love those metaphors, eh??)


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> hold all the *rump* cards...


not a typo, but witty analysis...


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## Guinness (Jan 4, 2002)

>> Darntootin': China doesn't need our "western economy' as much as we need their cheap labour. China may well see immigration of foreign investments and industries as inexpensive technological training programs.


Excellent observation!

More importantly, it is the major fault in current american logic. What will happen in ten or so years when China becomes the worlds number one consumer economy? What will happen to the American sense of "self" when the Chinese have reached the point where they have overtaken the US dollar as the currency of choice for the international financial community? 

The danger, as I see it, is not that America is a military super power today that rules a traditional colonial empire, because they don't. However, they are an economic super power that does rule a neo-colonial empire composed of subserviant economies. When face the possibility of loosing their pre-eminant position as the world's number one economy, that's when we have to begin worrying about their military might.

Mike


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Guinness...I have only five hours ahead of me before I have to be on a ferry to the mainland in the big truck. I have to be brief here (but I am certainly looking forward to replying in greater depth sometime this sunday. I hope.)

Ahhh...who am I kidding. Here it is .."in Depth"

Re: Invading Iraq while letting North Korea "bake".

The 9/11 terrorist attacks...and several other major attacks on American targets (during the Clinton administration) came from the middle east and were a direct result of Islamic desperation. They are finding it very easy to lash out at us with young suicide bombers (rather a lot of them) because of the despair that is prevalent in this area. The middle eastern countries are awash in petro dollars...rich beyond anyone's dreams... but most of the residents in that area live just as their ancestors did several hundred years ago. Running water is rare. Schools and hospitals are something out of the dark ages. Don't even get me started on how women are treated in that region....and they make up slightly more than half of all the people in any country, after all.

So they lash out. This needs to be stopped. NOW! Before there are more terrorist attacks in N America. 9/11 put this at the very top of the "to-do" list. Big Time!

North Korea is a different kettle of fish. The area surrounding North Korea is fairly prosperous...without the benefit of some vastly overvalued natural resource. Given the favored trading nation status that the US doles out to prospective democracies-in-the-making, they have made the very best of it and turned themselves into modern societies in record time. Most of the region is just as modern as we are, here in the west.

The glaring exception is North Korea....one of the planet's last 'surviving' (and I use the term loosely) Marxist states. It is failing badly and it's population is slowly starving to death. For a time, they got some relief from building fairly high tech weapons that were then sold to other rogue states (noteably in the middle east)... but that trade has dried up of late and now their weapons factories are closing and their people are starving in the dark.

All because George Bush has made the middle east into a very different place than it was two years ago.

Satellite photos of the Korean peninsula have shown a sharp demarcation line between the north and the south. South Korea is lit up like any other modern country at night. North Korea is dark. And, most probably, cold, and most definitely hungry.

Despite the obvious fact that millions are suffering in North Korea as we speak....there is no motivation to march in and change things right now. Kim's days are definitely numbered and the whole region would not be affected by a brand new democracy in North Korea the same way that a brand new democracy in Iraq would for it's region.

One MORE democracy in southeast Asia would be very nice...but hardly pivotal. Wheras a successful democracy in one of the larger countries in the middle east would be a major first! It would be a very powerful draw for all of the dissaffected millions in the area and would offer them a clear alternative to the only option that they seem to have right now.

Which is listening to charismatic "leaders" who claim that the only way to end the great disparity between the two cultures is to destroy the infidel and defeat the great satan who is sucking the life out of them.

Usually by blowing themselves up in a crowded place and taking as many others with them as possible. Or something MUCH worse.

North Korea is not an imminent terrorist threat to anyone. The middle east IS.

North Korea will be dealt with by a combination of the Chinese, the Japanese, and the south Koreans....if it ever gets adventurous. Kim jong Il knows this all too well and he is loathe to end his failing reign by making a move like this. He just keeps hoping that things will somehow change in his favor. Someday.

But...then again...HE is not starving to death. His people ARE.

This problem will likely resolve itself without a messy intervention by the US military...and fairly soon, I'd wager.

When that happens, there will be no more committed Marxist states in Asia (Vietnam is rapidly becoming a market driven economy and China is well on the road to becoming a modern prosperous democracy). 

And Cuba will be then be the only faded remenant of a totally failed ideology that is left on the whole planet. This bedraggled and forlorn carribbean island will also soon make the big change to a totally democratic, market-driven economy, I'd bet.   

Can't compare North Korea (or Zimbabwe...as Jwoodget has tried to do) with the middle east and Iraq.

And anyone who openly wonders "which nation George W. Bush will attack NEXT...without notice" is just not paying attention to the reality.

They are being driven, and blinded, by a failing ideological picture of the world that is patently false.

This pre-concieved and pre-packaged view of the world around them causes them to make some shockingly bad predictions about the outcome of current events. They just aren't working with all of the facts in mind because their ideology prevents them from seeing all that is going on around them.

They simply 'toss out' anything that doesn't fit what they have been taught is real. Too bad...because most of them seem to be very intelligent, and I'm quite confident that most of them could see what is REALLY happenning. If they would care to look at the situation with an open mind.  

Don't believe me? Then I suggest you do an ehmac search on some of the subjects we have been talking about...and look VERY closely at what comes up.

If you choose to take the time to do this...you might just end up scratching your head and wondering why some of the more prominent citizens here at ehmac seem to always be so terribly wrong in their predictions about the outcome of current events.

It's really quite puzzling.

Could it be that it's just 'bad luck'? A simple mistake? (many simple mistakes? Over and over again?) Or...could it be that they are just not seeing a whole bunch of very obvious data because of pre-concieved notions and ideals that can't be easily abandoned?

Or, could it mean that everything that they believed was the real 'truth', for so VERY long was...well...wrong?

Have a detailed look for yourself. The data is there. Make your own decision.

And ask yourself...Why?


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

In today's news 

When Ariel Sharon announced intentions to launch a "unilateral security measure", White House spokesman Scott McClellan criticized Sharon's go-it-alone approach, saying Israel should give the road map time to work.

interesting notion


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

*U.S. Envoy James A. Baker III Wins German, French Agreement to Work for Iraqi Debt Relief*

Debt relief????...not without strings......that's got enough spin to go into orbit -" Agreement to work *FOR*"????? yet the headline sounds like an agreement *ON* debt relief.







BIG DIFFERENCE.

"Germany's position on the awarding of reconstruction contracts in Iraq was clearly expressed in the talks," Anda said.

The Pentagon decision infuriated Germany, France and Russia, the very countries Baker is visiting on his tour.

Baker did not comment on his discussions with Schroeder. In Paris, after talks with French President Jacques Chirac, Baker said, "We are agreed it is important to reduce that debt within the Paris Club if possible in the year 2004."

Chirac's spokeswoman Catherine Colonna said the two had agreed on the importance of cutting Iraq's debt next year. The German statement mentioned no time frame.

Russia, which is also on Baker's planned tour, has so far ruled out any outright forgiveness of the $8 billion Iraq owes it and says any restructuring must be through the Paris Club.

"Iraq is not a poor country," Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said last week.

Critics in Germany make the same point, questioning massive debt relief to a country with large oil wealth. The Foreign Ministry's top official on German-U.S. relations, Karsten Voigt, said he found it "hard to explain" that the United States was now pressing Iraq's creditors to help out.

*"Before the war, the U.S. government always said that reconstruction would finance itself,"* Voigt told The Associated Press.""

Sounds more like a bargaining position from France and Germany and a reality check on the US.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> When Ariel Sharon announced intentions to launch a "unilateral security measure", White House spokesman Scott McClellan criticized Sharon's go-it-alone approach, saying Israel should give the road map time to work.


this is exactly what i was afraid of
the U.S. sets the example and now others follow

do i hear dominoes tumbling?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Hope you made the ferry macnutt, cos that post wasn't worth missing it for. Maybe all of the cynics of the Dubya adminstration are deluding themselves, but it seems to me at least that many of the concerns and predictions have turned out pretty much as expected. Iraq is still a quagmire despite the quick victory (you can't wish for a close in hostilities for convenience, carrier landing or not). The US debt burden will define much of the next decade (to the significant benefit of trading nations). The US military will be dropped into more questionable situations. The American people are more paranoid and divided (haves and have-nots, Republican and Democrat). This is one country. Why is it's collective ego so fragile?

The US still has the opportunity to be a quiet benefactor for the world, nudging (not bombing) other countries into doing the right thing, creating consensus, impacting the worlds true scourges (disease, famine, poverty). By acting belligerently and unpredictably, it instead manufacturers hate against it that feeds and focusses the otherwise pathetic extremist elements.

As for Zimbabwe, here IS an opportunity for the US to show that it cares about people, not their resources or their "threat potential" before its too late. Show leadership and responsibility and you'll receive respect and help.


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

*listening to charismatic "leaders" who claim that the only way to end the great disparity between the two cultures is to destroy the infidel and defeat the great satan who is sucking the life out of them*

Bush is a "charismatic leader" - making the very same claims.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Macdoc...
Love it!
It appears U.S. Envoy James A. Baker III was unsuccessful in cooling the jets of angry European nations, but the US administration doesn't want the world to know it failed to reach its goal(s), so the spin doctors worked overtime in coming up with a media release that looks better than it really is... so as not to upset the perception that it succeeds at everything it attempts.

IMHO, the USA has lost the trust of more than the vocal countries of Germany, France and Russia. We can expect other nations to get on the bandwagon and back the above countries. The USA could quickly find itself isolated from the 'free' trade it has enjoyed since WWII.

The EU is aware the USA's Achilles heel is in their robust but declining economy. Any major negative change would probably mean an increase of mutually beneficial inter-trade amongst the EU member-nations. Pacific-Rim countries could collectively begin focusing on the EU instead of the USA, if faced with the threat of US industry pull-outs.

Some Americans ARE aware of such a threat, and beginning to make major moves to curtail the export of industry and jobs. They have aggressively begun to entice companies to return their manufacturing facilities to the Homeland. (If we can believe CNN)

It's not rocket science, and we in Canada will probably end up being caught between a rock and several hard places, when the day comes that our loyalties are put to the test by the EU, the Pacific Rim, and the US economies when asked us to identify our economic allegiance(s).


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Libya announces that it will cooperate in decnouncing terrorism and has admitted it did attempt to create WMDs.

Bush on CNN right now.

oooohhh, macnutt is gonna' be so "i told ya so" when he sees this....


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Guiness...

YUP!

But I don't think we'll have to wait ten years for China to become the next world economic and military superpower.

However... just as serendipity leapfrogs and detours from methodic steps to expected ends... to arrive at unexpected and surprising discoveries both good and bad... events in the world are positioned, IMHO, to cause major unexpected changes in the world.

Who knows... maybe China won't end up being the next economic or military superpower after all.

Maybe it will be India or Russia... or maybe none of us can identify the 'winner' since it has yet to occur.

Thaaat's serendipity!


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

WOW!

I was writing my last post to Guiness and missed much of CNN news. Watching it now.

SERENDIPITY, EH!!!!


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

CNN also notes that the head of the US WMD search team (David Kay) will likely quit next month. Maybe he'll move to Libya?

Meanwhile James A. Baker continues his dog and pony tour to try to offload the debt burden of Iraq. He might not be the most persuasive of characters to do this given his role in representing the interests that would benefit from such fiduciary foregiveness. See "Here in Reality". Not to mention that his law firm is representing the Saudi government in the trillion dollar lawsuit brought by families of the 9/11 victims. (see links here).

Here's an interesting perspective on the demise of a US industry icon, Boeing, through mismanagement and short-term aims. Boeing used to own the aviation industry. It's a poor second (even after merging with McDonnell Douglas) to Airbus Industrie. Loks like it's fate will be as a supplier of flying fuel tanks for the USAF.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"It's not rocket science, and we in Canada will probably end up being caught between a rock and several hard places, when the day comes that our loyalties are put to the test by the EU, the Pacific Rim, and the US economies when asked us to identify our economic allegiance(s)."

Not with 20% of the world's fresh water  

Libya's been softening ever since Reagan popped a rocket his way and he's getting older too - not so much fire in the belly. Khadfi is nothing if clever - he knows the US wants a "win" so will shower him with goodies.
Machiavelli would be proud.

Iran is the key and THAT is no easy task. Saudi Arabia is a real problem all around for everybody including themselves.
How can you democratize the Middle East with your major allie a despotic monarchy.

Friends today, enemies tomorrow, friends again....message get out, stop meddling.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Here's a thought...

Could we be looking at being hoodwinked by Saddam Hussein? Was it pre-ordained that if Saddam was captured, Libya would immediately 'fess-up to having WMD's to cloak the fact that those chemical and bio-weapons really came from Iraq and belonged to Saddam?

Now that Saddam has been captured, Gaddafi would know better than to keep the stockpiles of Saddam's weapons knowing Saddam will tell the interrogators where he hid his WMD's... in Libya... in efforts to save his own buns!

Neat trick, eh?


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

ALSO...

Libya negotiated big dollars and concessions for revealing and agreeing to destroy its stockpiles of wmd's. Big bucks would have been paid to Gaddafi by Saddam prior to the coalition war on Iraq. It would have happened long before Saddam was in a pressure-cooker to produce something he didn't have. The dallying by USA and the UN gave Saddam more than enough time to transport whatever traces of wmd's that remained to Libya.

Now Libya does two things...

1 - It gets paid twice... first by Saddam... and second... it reaps monetary and other benefits from the rest of the world for its good deeds.

2 - Libya takes responsibility for owning Saddam's wmd's, thus proving Bush wrong... that Iraq (Saddam) never had wmd's, and he could have been de-throned using sanctions and other diplomatic pressures. And the war was unnecessary!

Libya's announcement today sounds too much like a well planned chess-move threatening to checkmate G.W. Bush!.

Whadda-ya-think-folks?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

dubya has been out-bartered and out-haggled, but it will play well in Nov. 2004 and that's what realy matters to PNAC et al


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm not sure exactly WHY so many of our more intelligent citizens are still flogging these dead horses...

The old ways are a proven failure.

Just as I....and so very many other pragmatic thinkers... have been saying for so VERY long now....

This President (like him or not) has shown real resolve and is obviously committed to changing the whole paradigm of the troubled middle east.

And guess what? It's working!   

Good thing. Because, otherwise, we'd be dealing with a far nastier situation right now. No question about it at all.

But we're NOT! Most of the most radical "rogue states" are busily scrambling to gain acceptance amongst the rest of the world, right now. 

-Syria has changed it's whole approach to this siruation...for the very first time in four decades.

-Egypt changed several years ago...and has recently reaffirmed it's committment to modernity.

-Iran has stopped most of it's adventurous sponsorship for terrorism. It no longer buys expensive weapons systems from North Korea and is now indicating that it is ready for unlimited UN nuclear inspectors on it's soverign territory. For the very FIRST time in more than two decades, BTW! And it is very likely to be an emerging democracy in the next few years. Strictly from the force of it's own people's desire. The US will step in and help nuture this...and forget about all of the past history.

Trust me on this. (I invite you to print this out and call me on this in the near future. If I'm wrong, I will apologise profusely. Promise.)

-Iraq is obviously a very different place than it was when Saddam was calling all the shots. Two weeks ago there were open demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad AGAINST terrorism and FOR democracy. By Iraqis who no longer felt that they would be arrested or killed for demonstrating how they felt in public.

This is a very good sign!  

-And now, Libya is coming out..very publicly... to say that they are prepared to shut down all chemical weapons programs and submit themselves to _UNLIMITED INSPECTIONS_ by the UN. Just to absolutely PROVE that they are no longer a rogue state!  

Twenty years ago Libya was one of the very WORST of the rogue states. During the Reagan Administration they were constantly causing grief and making threats.

They even blew up a packed 747 that was headed home to the US from Europe...a few weeks before Christmas. Hundreds of innocent people lost their lives and thousands of people lost their loved ones in that horrid event.

Libya...under Qaddaffi...has openly admitted that they were resonsible for this terrorist act. They have paid out more than TWO BILLION (two THOUSAND MILLION) dollars in compensation to the families of the people who were affected by this criminal act. They have also turned over the actual Libyan citizens who were directly responsible for this horrendous act.

These people are now in jail. For the rest of their natural lives.

And now...after 9/11 and George W.'s resolute response to that despicable act...plus the successful invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq...and the capture of the despot known as Saddam....Libya is openly pleading for re-acceptance into the world community.

What a change from a few years ago!! 









During President Bush's second term, I suspect that most of the rest of the rogue states on this planet will be busily scrambling to gain acceptance as 'newly-reformed countries'. They will be falling all over themselves to prove that they are no longer sponsoring terrorism or acting as enablers for terrible acts.

This wouldn't have happened if Al Gore was in power right now. He would have been 'negotiating' with the terrorists and begging them to stop. At any cost.

( _PLEASE DON'T HIT US AGAIN....I'll do ANYTHING! Just ASK!!_ )

What a bunch of tripe.  

Things all over the world are unfolding in the BEST possible way! Anyone who says they aren't is working from a set of pre-concieved notions that blind them from the true reality.

It is a 'reality' that is based solely upon blind ideology. 

My advice? Read EVERYTHING you can about the situation, and then decide for yourselves what is real, and what is not.

And then ask yourself why it is that some of us...some of the smartest among us....cannot SEE what is right before them. 

And why they can't seem to successfully predict ANY of the outcomes of the current policies? Ever?

Bad luck? Or are they working from a bad data set? One that was established back when they were in school?

Interesting stuff, eh?

I suggest that you make your OWN decisions. Based upon some serious research.

This WORKS!


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

macnutt...



> Things all over the world are unfolding in the BEST possible way! Anyone who says they aren't is working from a set of pre-conceived notions that blind them from the true reality.
> It is a 'reality' that is based solely upon blind ideology.


'Things' may be unfolding in the best possible way in your world... but not necessarily in mine. To denigrate those who disagree with you, or think differently; or to pigeonhole them, smacks of narrow-minded thinking. Are you not taking blind license when you state that anyone who doesn't agree with you has blind ideological views?

Who died and made you king?

Bush is strong-arming himself all over the world against weak countries. When he meets an opponent as strong or stronger than him, a different tune will be playing across the US. (and on Salt Spring Island)

To expound on the righteousness of thousands of civilians dying in the middle east or elsewhere on the globe for a cause elsewhere, (back home in Texas) hardly qualifies as "unfolding in the best possible way".

Whether civilian are killed by Saddam's regime or Bush's regime... they are still dying for someone else's cause.

The world is not capitulating to the mighty power of the USA; it is re-organizing itself by playing games of diplomatic chess. And they are playing to win! What is considered a move of submission, could in reality, be a move to trap an opponent.

If you open YOUR eyes, you may see a broader picture of a deadly game being played where religion, ideologies, and greed and quest for power, play a tremendous and major role.

We're not dealing with a new breed of human being... we're dealing with the same gruesome, ambitious, self-serving cold-blooded killers, as has been written in the history of the world for centuries. The difference is, we are using new technologies and gadgets to appease human emotions that have not changed in eons.

You can call my thinking blind ideology...

What I think of yours hasn't changed.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt you are so in Bush's thrall it's unbeleivable, what a joke.

Libya played a smart move that was on the agenda anyway as their leader aged and mellowed out..

The US response that would meet huge approval world wide would be to join the international community itself - in many eyes they are as much a pariah state as any - and a dangerous one.

Join the Landmine ban.
Get back to the disarmament table in good faith.
Acknowledge the Hague.
Acknowledge and adhere to their own Supreme Court ruling about the prisoners in Guantanamo.
Support the UN properly.

Let China, Japan and the two Koreas workout the problems in THEIR turf.

Get out of the middle east and ASK the rest of the world how best to reduce tensions and improve trade.

Just as there is no land threat to Canada there is no strategic threat to the US that justifies their current approach or military spending. It's a con job on the US public that they are paying for,

The US military would be a wonderful vehicle under the auspices of the UN to have a truly effective world cop and the rest of the world could help offset the cost to the US of it's massive military. 
EVERY empire that has kept heavy military has not been able to support it in the long run.
The US is no different and the frayed edges are showing.

The US currently supplies a huge portion of the arms to worldwide conflicts, if they believe what they preach about wanting peace get out of that business.

If North Korea and few others set up a quid pro quo - say supported by China and Russia that they would disarm and allow inspections IF the US disarms.
What do you think would happen??
The US HAS WMDs by the ton.

If the other "threats" say "Put up or shut up" do you think the US will??

I don't.
I think Libya is going to rub the US nose in it. The UN sanctions and threat of further sanctions were progressing and have come to fruition.
Note the US has not lifted it's own sanctions and that just supports my point that there are other agendas at work.
The US military/industrial complex is as self serving as the IT community about "make work". Toronto is still paying for the Y2K "threat.
But the US arms and military are are way more dangerous and the politicos are willing to play on citizen's fears.

The US wants the world to run it's way. Most else is just a cover story.

" The US Senate decided not to ratify the CTBT. This drew condemnation from Bill Clinton and the White House Administration, environmental groups and other governments. The grounds for rejection (ignoring the bipartisan politics that some claim affected this decision) was that if the US ratified this treaty, it would not stop others trying to go nuclear and therefore the US should not ratify on the grounds of national security. * The ironic thing is that many nations around the world feel threatened by recent US unilateral actions and are thus beginning to feel that they will need to procure weapons that are more dangerous to assure their own national security. If the U.S. reduced its aggressive postures then other nations perhaps would not feel as threatened -- instead they do and are arming themselves as a result."*

"Incidentally, US leadership on this would have probably meant that China, India and Pakistan would have then ratified the treaty as well, because *China and India mentioned they will ratify once the US does, and Pakistan would if India did* So, as this report mentions, the US is giving up leadership in nuclear disarmament."
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsControl/CTBTUSA.asp

Now this was in 1999 - how do you think the "world" feels these days about "unilateral actions". Safer.......?? NOT!

Sow the wind.............


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

macdoc...

Bingo!

'Might' is not the only requirement for international success.

Lest we forget, The Bush administration's attraction to the middle east is oil... not peace... not democracy... not any other reason.

Unfortunately, the American public still believes all it is told, and still tolerant of losing sons and daughters. By the time they realize their folly, it may be too late. The US dollar will be in the toilet; friendly countries will have alienated; the American public will begin fighting among themselves, and somebody in the world will push the nuclear button once the USA is no longer the policeman of the world.

History does repeat itself, eh!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Darntootin.....

Perhaps before you make any more wild statements about the US economy, you might just take a moment to bring yourself up to speed on current events.

They are:

-Despite the fact that George W. inherited a failing economy from Bill Clinton, there has never been two consecutive months of economic decline during his Presidency. That prevents the recent downturn from officially being called a "Recession".

-The US economy has grown at a rate of between seven and eight per cent during the past two months. This coming month looks to be on the same fast track. That is a better growth rate than the US economy has experienced for almost thirty years! It is almost unprecedented in US history! It is as fast (or faster) than any of the rapidly emerging Asian economies have EVER grown!

That's TWO CONSECUTIVE MONTHS of MASSIVE growth! (Very likey three...or more!) Versus an economy that NEVER EVER experienced two consecutive months of decline. All during George W's Presidency.

Still think that the US economy is in decline?

If so...why?

(Blinded by ideology again, I'll wager)


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

One more thing....before I hit the hay:

Whatever assumptions you might make about how "Europe" will deal with the latest shocking developments in the middle east should be tempered by the simple fact that the current leaders of two of the most powerful European countries (and their respective parties) will soon be ejected from power by the electorate.

Or an International court of law.  

They might even be thrown in prison. 

Don't believe me? Then I invite you to sit back and watch the upcoming well-televised trial of Saddam Hussein. He will be naming names and producing documents and witnesses to prove that both France and Germany were in serious violation of every UN rule in the book while they happily provided his UN-sanctioned state with all sorts of illegal technology....in trade for future oil contracts.

He will do this in order to try and save his own miserable skin. And he knows that he will have to come up with real data that can be easily proved. He will do this.

And then we will ALL begin to realise why the UN has been so powerless to stop some of these despots in the past. 

It's called "Gridlock" and it stems from powerful members of the UN selling their pivotal votes for money! Or oil.  

And you will all see a major change in the UN and it's emphasis on certain countries in the very near future. The Major Players will no longer be able to sell their votes for money. This will be a MAJOR change!

BIG TIME.

It will likely happen just after Saddam's trial has ended, by the way. By popular demand!

(Note to JWoodget: This is when Mugabe and Zimbabwe will be decisively dealt with. By the UN. Finally. Gridlock will be a thing of the past and France will no longer be able to derail the normal course of events by selling their pivotal vote in the UN for MONEY! Mark my words.)

Don't believe me? Fair enough....

I invite anyone who is reading this to print out my post and call me on it, a year or two hence.

I will be here. Ready to deal with it. Promise.   

[ December 22, 2003, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Gerald,
"all that glitters is not gold"
spending is up, jobs are not

Some recent notes from two bastions of private enterprise

From CNN.com
"In fact, during a quarter with the strongest growth rate since 1984, total employment fell by 165,000 jobs, according to Labor Department statistics..."

"...Demand will translate into jobs very soon...But that's still largely a hope, not a certainty," Cheney [chief economist at John Hancock Financial Services in Boston.] added."

"Government spending, which contributed mightily to second quarter growth, slowed down as defense spending, which surged 45.8 percent in the second quarter, driven by spending on the war in Iraq, was flat."

http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/30/news/economy/gdp/

NEXT on your list of required reading
FROM washingtonpost.com
"Bush Economic Aide Says Government Lacks Vision "

"The comments are becoming public after the manufacturing sector has shed jobs for 40 straight months, with employment down nearly 2.8 million from its July 2000 peak."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61073-2003Dec12.html

ONE more for good measure
"I think that the best way to describe the economic recovery is that it's a saw tooth recovery," said William Quan, chief of research for Mizuho Securities, U.S. "We're not going to the moon. The economy is going to move in fits and starts, two steps forward, one step back. And the financial markets will respond accordingly," he said. One implication could be that Americans should not grow too accustomed to the Dow Jones Industrial Average being above 10,000, where it closed Thursday for the first time in 18 months. 


The Labor Department's Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that the seasonally adjusted Producer Price Index for Finished Goods declined 0.3 percent in November. The decrease in the costs of products before they land on store shelves followed five consecutive increases -- including a 0.8 percent rise in October and a 0.3 percent increase in September. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59195-2003Dec12.html


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Michael...you are setting yourself up for a big fall here.

Virtually EVERY economic indicator in the USA is WAYYY up! Beyond anyone's wildest dreams! This looks to be continuing...and it has little to do with "government spending".

It has very much to do with a major tax cut that affects every single family in the USA. They ALL have more money to spend right now. Quite a bit more than they had last year at this time...and FAR more than they did during the dying days of Clinton's bubble economy.

And they are SPENDING IT!







  

Everybody in the US now has several hundred dollars more than they expected to have. A small but signifigant windfall, just before Christmas.

Some are buying new cars. Others are getting work done on their houses. Many are paying down debts. 

Whatever they are doing...there are new people being hired to handle the load. Even more jobs will be available in the near future. LOTS of them!

And the Dow Jones indicators are higher right now than they have been for almost three years. (actual growth is better than it has been since the late sixties!)

The "shake-out" from the false prosperity of the Clinton years is pretty much complete. It's time to move ahead! Based on reality, not a "bubble economy" like we had during the nineties.

Watch the US economy (and the economy of almost any truly free market based Nation) during the next few years. The growth will amaze you!

Terrorism will be in major decline...and there will be all kinds of brand new democracies that are newly hungry for some sort of niche in the market.

We are on the brink of a major leap in prosperity. For everyone!

Care to find some minor fault in all of this? Are you driven to hate and committed to demean the current reality, because of some pre-concieved ideology? Got your ideological blinders firmly in place?

If so...then be prepared to be called on this! Your words and proclamations and predictions are part of a permanent record here at ehMac.

And I will be reprinting your predictions several years from now. On this forum. For all to see.

Trust me on this.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ahhh yes/////those who do not learn from history.........can we say "Keynsian" - 

THe OLD theory was that for every dollar the gov't spend the economy would grow by 6 dollars.
Didn't quite work out that way and the world ever since with the notable exception of Bush has held that balanced budgets are "de riguer"

Sawtooth economics indeed - I think the term is "boom bust" 
Pouring money you don't have ( remember that's all deficit spending" WILL come back sround to bite you.
It's one thing to spend into deficit on infrastructure another to pour billions into a war.

At least one sharp eyed Vertmonter doesn't buy the nonsense.

"DUMMERSTON, Vt. -- The 2004 election is less than a year away, and President Bush would like you to believe that the U.S. economy is on the rebound.

Then again, he also would like you to believe that "good things" are happening in Iraq.

While what is happening in Iraq is a tragedy of the highest order - a brutal mix of arrogance, hubris and stupidity by the Bush administration - I believe that the present shape of the U.S. economy will ultimately decide the President's fate next November.

The Republicans were cheering loudly when the news came out a few days ago that the Gross Domestic Product rose 7.2 percent in the last quarter. That sounds great, until you read the fine print and see that most of the growth came from people spending the money they got from the $400 tax rebates and from refinancing their mortgages.

Two-thirds of all GDP is consumer spending. Throw in the money that's being spent on the U.S. occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and a slight uptick in business spending, and suddenly you have an "economic boom."

But hold the streamers and confetti. It's going to take much more business investment and much more consumer spending to maintain this growth and perhaps put a dent in the number of lost jobs since the 2000 election - more than three million and counting.

Normally, if the GDP grows, more jobs are created because businesses needs more labor to expand production. But more jobs aren't being created and it doesn't appear that more jobs are going to be created in the coming months.

As for seeing increased consumer spending to sustain a "boom," don't count on it. Credit card debt and personal bankruptcies are at record levels. Mortgage rates climbed back up after the historic lows earlier in the summer, putting a halt to refinancing. There aren't any more tax rebate checks in the mail. And consumer confidence is still pretty shaky. It's tough to go on a spending spree when you consider these recent figures:

Hunger is on the rise. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the number of hungry families in the U.S. increased 8.6 percent from 2001 and 13 percent from 2000. Nearly 31 million last year were deemed "food insecure" by the USDA, meaning they were so cash-strapped that they had to skip meals because they couldn't afford to buy food.
One in eight Americans - more than 34.6 million in all and more than 13 million of them children - are below the poverty line. More than 1.7 million Americans joined the ranks of the poor in 2002.
The number of Americans receiving food stamps rose from 17 million in 2000 to more than 22 million today, even though the average benefit is only about $160 a month.
More than nine million Americans are officially without work. The Labor Department doesn't count the millions more who stopped looking for work and/or exhausted their unemployment benefits.


Add all that to the reality that most Americans are a layoff or a major illness away from financial disaster. Better to pay down your debts, just in case.

And here are one more reason to not place any faith in seeing a sustained economic recovery that's going to create jobs, courtesy of the economics blog "It's Still The Economy, Stupid" (http://itstheeconomy.blogspot.com).

They went back through the historical GDP and employment data back to 1939, and asked this question: was there ever a time where the U.S. economy grew by 7 percent or more yet employment shrunk? Yes. In the third quarter of 1951, during the Korean War, GDP grew at an 8.34 percent annual rate yet employment fell by 0.23 percent. That was the only instance they found since quarterly GDP data began in 1947 (the Current Employment Statistics data begins in 1939).

So, aside from one quarter in 1950, the U.S. economy has never grown above 3 percent for a 12-month period without adding jobs. At least it hadn't until George W. President took office.

It's Still The Economy, Stupid concludes that "investment has largely been either nonproductive residential investment or hedonically imputed into computer purchases. It has only cost us around $500 billion in government deficits and another $100 billion in trade deficits to provide this 'growth.' It kept housing prices rising at a $1.2 trillion annual rate. For all this we lost 41,000 jobs in the quarter.

"While it always surprises me how we can push out the inevitable another quarter, how consumers can find a way to get one more credit card to max out, how businesses can increase earnings another 15 percent while sales remain in the single digits, how the Japanese and Chinese can still pump another $100 billion or so into U.S. treasuries and agencies to keep their exchange rate stable, it is certainly not what an Austrian economist would call a sustainable, robust economy. It instead seems like a manically inflated economy running entirely on the capacity to borrow...

* It cannot go on forever and it will end in tears. In the meantime we just have to expect more chaos in relative prices, while 'inflation' remains tame. Another year of 10 percent health care premium increases and 2 percent cost of living adjustments for seniors. Another year of earning 2 percent on your CDs while paying 6 percent on your mortgages. Another year of tuition hikes and empty recruitment fairs. Another year of dipping into home equity to pay for it all. Could we see a $600 billion budget deficit for 2004? How many states will go bankrupt? A $1 trillion trade deficit? How extreme can it get before the whole infrastructure breaks apart?"*

This is the economic picture that President Bush and the Republican Party aren't talking about. They have no intention of talking about it. But we as voters need to talk about these facts and remember them next November.

Randolph T. Holhut was a journalist in New England for more than 20 years. He edited "The George Seldes Reader" (Barricade Books). He can be reached at [email protected].


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Like I said macdoc...

The naysayers...who are still wearing those tired old ideological blinders... will still be proclaiming doom and gloom...long after all the rest of the populace has begun to realise that we are in a brand new boom period.

A REAL one, this time!    

A newly democratic and self-determing middle east ( a rather profitable one that is ready to trade openly...like Japan and Germany after WW2) will be a brand-new powerhouse!.

Not to mention a disarmed and newly-democratic North Korea that will help revitalise Asia...

Add to this a revamped Europe that has cast off it's corrupt leaders (who were in bed with Saddam in a big way)

And....possibly...a few of the richer African states, who will suddenly see which way the wind is blowing, and totally shift their traditional alliances (especially since France will soon be taken out of play).

Seems like a recipie for a brand new reality to me!

One that actually WORKS!!    

For a change.

But there will ALWAYS be the naysayers. People who are so totally committed to a narrow ideology....and that cannot admit....even to themselves...that things are actually getting better.

They will watch and observe the masses of people declaring that life is truly better today than it was a few years back....and will then go on to point out a few smal areas where things are still not quite perfect.

Fair enough.

This is a good thing. There should ALWAYS be people who will be calling for an improvement in our current status. We need this.

But we should all look VERY closely at the people who are demanding this perfection.

And...we should ALL be asking ourselves if these very same people...had they gotten THEIR political way, over the past few months or years...would have been able to manage to attain even a fraction of the current peace and prosperity.

I invite all of you who are reading this, to make a detailed search on ehMac...or Google...or ANYTHING.

And then come back and tell me that we are on the wrong track. That things are actually getting WORSE...instead of BETTER.

This is a real challenge. Are you up for it?

If so....then here is your chance to speak up!

I will deal with whatever you have to say on the subject.

Promise.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Same old rose coloured glasses. Funny how deficit spending suddenly seems "okay".  

The US has a huge trade deficit and a huge government deficit of historic proportions.

Canada on the other hand has a positive trade balance AND a small surplus which is being spent on health care not on military adventures. The funds for a SAR helicopter has been put in the current budget and will go ahead. 

[ December 22, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: MacDoc ]


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

macdoc,
maybe Mississauga could lend Hazel to the U.S. for a few years?
she isn't going to be around much longer - we need to strike while the iron is hot


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Well....I certainly stirred up some you-know-what with those last two posts, did I not?

Good. That's my job around here.   

Firstly...I am not "in Bush's thrall". I think he is a flawed leader and I can easily name a number of people whom I would rather have in charge of the world's most powerful Nation. (Colin Powell springs to mind...among several others).

But he was the best of two poor choices...and he has demonstrated serious resolve in the face of some pretty awful realities that he inherited from the previous Clinton government.

The US economy was going into a tailspin well before George W. was elected and the Al Qaeda terrorist attacks on North America had been planned years before George W. ever decided to run for President. This had been festering for years.

As well, the North Korean problems had actually been exacerbated by the naieve negotiations that Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton had enetered into with Kim Jong Il. (The ones that were heralded as a major breakthrough by the Democrats....and ultimately resulted in brand new nuclear weapons for North Korea. In return for a solemn promise that they wouldn't build any. Honest!) Yeah, RIGHT!









But George W. has done very well while dealing with these inherited problems. In fact, he' s been an outstanding President so far. This is probably why he has the highest sustained approval ratings of ANY President in US history. Higher than FDR. Higher than Lincoln. Higher even than his dear old dad, after the wildly sucessful Gulf War.

People are always underestimating George Bush jr. I did it myself. But he has surprised me. He is still surprising people. Historians will note this in the future. Several of them already have.

So...yeah. I'm a fan. Me and a vast majority of the people on this continent, according to all the polls.

Go figure.  


Now....on to the rest.

I honestly think that the recent surprising news out of Libya is a pivotal moment. It's a groundbreaker, fer sure!  

Libya, under Ghaddafi, has been under major sanctions for decades. They have been isolated and ignored by other countries as an international pariah for the better part of a generation. Ghaddafi's Libya committed major terrorist acts against US airlines long before Al Qaeda ever did.

And Ghaddafi has been defiant for this whole period. He is thought of in the same vein as Saddam by some people in North America and Europe.

But...oddly enough...a few cracks in his iron facade began to appear a few years ago. And, faced with the terrible reality that there is now a President who has real resolve and won't take no for an answer...he decides to cave in and make the best of what he has left.

And in doing so....he has changed EVERYTHING! For his own country, for the beleagured middle east, for the whole world.

Because, once Ghaddafi admitted that he had a nuclear weapons program, and chemical weapons...and told the whole world that he was ready to give all these up in order to rejoin the rest of the world...he created the pattern for a brand new paradigm in the middle east.

Strangely enough...Ghaddafi suddenly decided to "Make Nice" a few months AFTER Iraq and Afghanistan had been defeated. And the very SAME week that Saddam was captured by US troops.

An odd coincidence, eh?

Once the US and Europe begin to open up to Libya over the next few months, and are seen to be doing so by a disbelieving Arab world....then there will be a flood of former rogue states in the region who will begin to come forward and ask for a return to normalcy.

In exchange for a cessation of all major weapons programs, and a friendlier stance toward former adversaries.

Egypt did this back in the late seventies, and it has never looked back. The rest of them will not be far behind, now that some of the worst of the rogue states have been neutralised or are asking for acceptance by the rest of the world.

And North Korea will be forced into an even worse position than it is in now. Ghaddafi has openly admitted that much of his weapons technology has been purchased from North Korea over the past decade or so. 

Anyone really believe that the newly-reformed Libya will continue to funnel petro dollars into Kim Jong Il's failing Marxist state?

And does anyone actually think that any of the other remaining rogue states will be openly buying death machinery from Kim Jong Il in the coming days?

AFTER Afghanistan? AFTER Syria's sudden mid-stream change of heart? AFTER the Al Qaeda terrorist attacks on Saudi Arabia? AFTER the massive pro-democracy demonstrations in IRAN? AFTER the invasion and occupation of Iraq? After Saddam's capture?

AFTER Colonel Ghaddafi has declared that all his Libyan WMD programs are suddenly ended...and UN inspectors now have UNLIMITED access to his former rogue state?

Not bloody likely.

So....North Korea will be forced into an early resolution of it's current economic crisis. Quite possibly this very winter.many millions of North Koreans have been slowly starving to death over the past few years....and as many as four million MORE will be starving to death this winter as a result of Kim's shutting down the failing weapons factories.

And...as a result of this...the North Korean miltary will soon rise up and lash out at the man who has been the author of their current torment.

Kim Jong Il will be either deposed and shot, or hanged, or poisoned, or thrown in prison. By his own people.

And, yet another rogue state will be set upon the road to normalcy. One MORE threat will be defused and rendered harmless. One MORE new democracy will be born out of the ragged tatters of a former dictatorship.

It's getting to be quite a long list!  

But I bet that George W.'s detractors will still be crying foul and pointing out how "things are just not getting better quite _FAST_ enough!"

And they will STILL be making wild predictions of gloom and doom that never seem to come true. While constantly trying to belittle all the obvious good that has been done over the past few years.

To anyone who is reading this, I can only say one thing:

Go back and do an ehmac search. Look for predictions on what will happen if we attack Afghanistan. Or Iraq. Or of how long it will take to find Saddam. Or anything on Libya or North Korea.

Then watch the headlines....and make your own decisions as to who is ideologically blinded, and who can see a simple reality that is right before them.

Make your own carefully considered decisions. Based on reality. Not on pre-concieved notions.

You might just be surprised at what sort of conclusions you come up with.  

[ December 22, 2003, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## Guinness (Jan 4, 2002)

Just a short response for the moment ...

>> MacNutt: One MORE new democracy will be born out of the ragged tatters of a former dictatorship.

Most of us are still waiting for the FIRST to be born ...

MIke


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Good news about the US economy is currently a vapour-trail from the White House. The injection of capital into the defence and anti-terrorism industries does create jobs, but is incredibly inefficient at doing so (since the products do not earn return and are bought solely by the government). It's true that a good proportion of the Iraq rebuilding will go back into US construction company coffers, but that's hardly significant (and certainly doesn't help the manufacturing sector). In the meantime, almost 3 million jobs have evaporated. What's better for the economy, a TSA inspector or a production line installer?

The nice thing about economics, though, is that its always possible to draw multiple conclusions from the data. If you ask Canadians whether a stronger dollar is important, you'll get different answers depending whether their jobs are in imports, exports, travel, banking or if their retired. The US economy has legs of its own as it is so large it is able to absorb shifts in capital that would sink lesser counties. But while confidence int he US dollar has been high for the past 15 years, its at a tipping point. As confidence turns to concern over debt repayments, the dollar could lose 20-30% of its value in less than a year. It's precarious. The Federal Reserve is nervous and could even put pressure on Bush to stall or even pull some of his tax cuts. The unemployed don't benefit much from tax cuts....

Americans have bought into the idea of lower taxes but seemingly haven't made the connection between their taxes and services. As a consequence, they are voting for reduced support for their emergency services, roads, schools, etc. Some are taking notice. They'll wake up. The only question is whether this will be before or after the next election.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"Most of us are still waiting for the FIRST to be born ..."

Well you could argue Germany but as I've said elsewhere when a culture and people mature enough to put away "dreams of empire" then a sea change occurs and they are seriously reluctant to get involved in military endeavours again. 
They tend to be "good neighbors" and tend to bettering things at home.
It takes a united people to do this - not a patched together state which Iraq certainly is.

I'm still skeptical that a "democracy" as we currently understand IS the preferred or most rational form of government for a "people" or that we've got a handle on how best to make it work.

In less developed areas it becomes even less likely to succeed.

"n his "Jihad vs. McWorld" article, Benjamin Barber argued that the current axial world patterns of retribalization and globalism respectively may each threaten the process of democratization [The Atlantic Monthly, March 1992, p. 53]. *Similarly, based on a study of the transition of states from dictatorships to democratic régimes over the last two centuries, author Samuel Huntington has pointed out that there was a re-emergence of authoritarianism after each of the two earlier democracy waves (1828-1926 and 1943-1962)* [The Third Wave: Democratization in the Late Twentieth Century, 1991]."

M A R C H  1 9 9 2 


The two axial principles of our age -- tribalism and globalism -- clash at every point except one: they may both be threatening to democracy

by Benjamin R. Barber

Just beyond the horizon of current events lie two possible political futures -- both bleak, neither democratic. The first is a retribalization of large swaths of humankind by war and bloodshed: a threatened Lebanonization of national states in which culture is pitted against culture, people against people, tribe against tribe -- a Jihad in the name of a hundred narrowly conceived faiths against every kind of interdependence, every kind of artificial social cooperation and civic mutuality. The second is being borne in on us by the onrush of economic and ecological forces that demand integration and uniformity and that mesmerize the world with fast music, fast computers, and fast food -- with MTV, Macintosh, and McDonald's, pressing nations into one commercially homogenous global network: one McWorld tied together by technology, ecology, communications, and commerce. The planet is falling precipitantly apart AND coming reluctantly together at the very same moment.


These two tendencies are sometimes visible in the same countries at the same instant: thus Yugoslavia, clamoring just recently to join the New Europe, is exploding into fragments; India is trying to live up to its reputation as the world's largest integral democracy while powerful new fundamentalist parties like the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, along with nationalist assassins, are imperiling its hard-won unity. States are breaking up or joining up: the Soviet Union has disappeared almost overnight, its parts forming new unions with one another or with like-minded nationalities in neighboring states. The old interwar national state based on territory and political sovereignty looks to be a mere transitional development"........more
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/foreign/barberf.htm

 grim prospect...accurate assessment.


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

MacDoc: *I'm still skeptical that a "democracy" as we currently understand IS the preferred or most rational form of government for a "people"*

Churchill said it best:
"Democracy is the very _worst_ form of government - except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Comparing democracy to an operating system - everyone runs their own preferred type and version, performing routine system checks and maintenance - and updating once in a while. Some do it by the book and others do a little customizing. Drawing the anaology further, it remains to be seen how many hacks Bush can install before crashing the system... and since he's running a major server...

Macnutt: again with the *ideological blinders*... maybe you can tell us who _can't_ be accused of adhering to some form of ideology? Is this not an ideological discussion? How blind is it to propose that investing in wholesale death and destruction might not be the best way to diversify your portfolio? Was it not an "ideology" that drove and eventually undermined ENRON? Is Bush in any way connected to these people? Were any of them wearing blinders (or handing them out for everyone else to wear)?  ...oops!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If we acknowledge that fundamentally we are a social primate then out of that perhaps can grow a method of governing that both acknowledges "human nature" yet protects human rights.

For instance the Canadian government recently allowed an entire "clan" to immigrate - not as individuals to qualify but as a "clan".
Recognizing the importance of the social structure.
This is one of the root issues behind the horrible numbers of blacks in the penal system in the US. Their entire clan and tribal structure was totally destroyed and systematically eliminated within the slave system
While the Spanish/Portugese held onto family and clan values and have a far better basis, like the Irish, Chinese, Jewish and Japanese before them to form vibrant and wealthy structures with the US.

Human nature dictates "clannishness" and it has been shown that integrated "peoples" - the Danes for instance the Swiss and the Japanese do well as cultures and financial enclaves.

Being unique or rare within a rather homogenious social structure has often been a counter indicator for evolutionary success. Biologists doing studies found that even by marking a healthy herd animal in some obvioous way the mortality rate from predators soared despie the fact that it was neither crippled or unhealty....just different...and predators focus on ...different.

We are products of millions of years of selection and we can see it in how kids react to "different".
Reaching a governmental and social environment, a world sturcutre of peoples and societies that take our evolutionary "built ins" into account instead of attempting to overule them intellectually will likely be a far more successful path to pursue.

Many primate and animal structures - indeed most - have a "pecking order" and a strong leader - sometimes male - say gorillas and sometime female in the case of elephants.

Again attempting to structure our social institutions and forms of government around these realities may help avoid the kind of cycle noted above ( democratization followed by authoritarian periods ).

Some form of checks and balance while allowing the brightest and best to lead ( many of us LIKE to be led ) may work far better than a straight "democratic" one person one vote everyone is equal idealism which seems to always break down as "natural leaders" and "natural followers" form powerful groups.

more later - kids to pick up.

anyone else??


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

missed this a week ago:
"Saddam's capture means little to zealots who are fighting U.S. for their own goals" 
Gwynne Dyer 
Tuesday, December 16, 2003


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*Funny how deficit spending suddenly seems "okay"*

Actually, the theory of expansionary economic policy states that when your economy is in a slump (or recession) you have to run a deficit to get out of it.

Expansionary policy is basically this

If Economy = down, then Taxes = cut and Gov. Spending = up.

This is pretty much what every government does in a recession, and it pretty much always works. The problem is that when the economy is out of recession taxes don't usually go back up high enough (or at least fast enough) and government spending isn't pulled back enough[1], and instead of levelling off the economy peaks and then dives, nd in the process deficits continue and debt grows.

When correctly applied, you can create a pretty nice upward trend in your economy, but like I say, they are not usually correctly applied[2].

--PB

[1] Contractionary policy!
[2] for a number of reasons, the main ones being that a) no one wants to hear that the economy is not increasing and b) no one wants a tax increase or a spending decrease.


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