# 92 Pontiac Firebird - FWD/RWD?



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I heard they made FWD and a RWD of the 92 Firebird, how can one tell which one it is? My 16 year old cousin has one but she lives in snowy Missouri and I'm hoping I won't have to beg her to give up the car.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

All Firebirds were RWD.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Agreed. ALL Firebirds and Camaros (close cousins) are rear wheel drive. As are ALL serious performance cars.

Front wheel drive is a joke. No motorsport has EVER been dominated by ANY front wheel drive car. Does this tell you something? 

It should.

Mercedes, BMW and Porsche are the serious automotive engineering companies of Germany. Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Maserati are the serious engineering companies in Italy.

NONE of them have EVER built a SINGLE front wheel drive car! Not ONE!

Does that tell you something?

It should.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Thanks everyone.... now to break the bad news to my cousin. i'll probably get her a used Civic to use for now, just a dependable fuel efficent car in her state where gas is at an all time high of 70 cents CAD a litre.  haha.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Well, I don't know about all the makes you listed, but the Mercedes A-Class is FWD: http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/mercedes-a-class-2002141.html

While I agree that FWD isn't ideal for performance -- it's mostly for efficient packaging and low manufacturing cost -- there are plenty of nice decent performing FWD cars.

RWD has advantages in weight distribution and steering feel, and AWD has performance advantages, especially on less than ideal road surfaces.

They all have their place, and folks should choose the configuration that best meets their needs.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

dona83 said:


> Thanks everyone.... now to break the bad news to my cousin. i'll probably get her a used Civic to use for now, just a dependable fuel efficent car in her state where gas is at an all time high of 70 cents CAD a litre.  haha.


A Civic would be a good choice for "dependable and fuel efficient", but if winter traction is a concern good Winter tires on a RWD car should do the trick.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

PenguinBoy said:


> Well, I don't know about all the makes you listed, but the Mercedes A-Class is FWD: http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/mercedes-a-class-2002141.html
> 
> While I agree that FWD isn't ideal for performance -- it's mostly for efficient packaging and low manufacturing cost -- there are plenty of nice decent performing FWD cars.
> 
> ...


I know of no FWD Mercedes cars that are sold into this market. Even the "Smart car" that they bought off of the Swiss Swatch group is RWD.

Front wheel drive is strictly built to save money at the manufacturing level. Any attempt at adding performance to a front wheel drive vehicle beyond the manufacturer's limited specs is courting total disaster.

This is especially true if you add a turbocharger or nitrous oxide injection...or a big wing on the BACK!! (Tooooo silly!)


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

The A-Class is Mercedes' economy class... I wish they would just hurry and bring it over to Canada, I've been waiting four years since I first saw it in Japan.

Would good winter tires seriously help a RWD car?


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

dona83 said:


> Would good winter tires seriously help a RWD car?


Yes.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacNutt said:


> This is especially true if you add a... big wing on the BACK!! (Tooooo silly!)


I'm with you on that one!


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## shoe (Apr 6, 2005)

Dona from what Im reading I take it you seem to think that a rear wheel drive car isnt good in snow? Re going out and buying a FWD civic.

There are some people out there that belive a rear wheel driven car is better in the snow, I personally have driven both and I think its just a matter of adapting to the type of car and drive and the conditions on the road.

What may cause the problems is the BIG FAT TIRES ON THIS CAR wider tires dont mean better traction when it comes to snow!!

Shoe


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> Front wheel drive is strictly built to save money at the manufacturing level. Any attempt at adding performance to a front wheel drive vehicle beyond the manufacturer's limited specs is courting total disaster.


One feature of front wheel drive which you have forgotten is the advantages of driving on snow and ice. FWD is clearly superior in this respect to RWD.

Everything else you say I agree with completely. I would never own a performance car that wasn't RWD.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

iPetie said:


> Everything else you say I agree with completely. I would never own a performance car that wasn't RWD.


I would -- if it was AWD!


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

PenguinBoy said:


> While I agree that FWD isn't ideal for performance


When the Mini (the Austin/Morris Mini, not that BMW wannabe) first appeared it was promoted that you could *accelerate* out of a skid. On the Monte Carlo rally course and other rally events, where the Mini in Cooper S trim dominated for a time, this may be a possibility. However, in usual traffic, there is seldom room to execute such a manouver.
A front wheel drive car is the mechanical equivalent of a seal moving on land - in its own medium (the ocean) the seal is actually rear drive - the way g*d wanted it.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

dona83 said:


> The A-Class is Mercedes' economy class... I wish they would just hurry and bring it over to Canada, I've been waiting four years since I first saw it in Japan.
> 
> Would good winter tires seriously help a RWD car?


In watching Car and Driver one day, they said that the whole thing about FWD being far better in the snow was a myth. With winter tires RWD can be just as good, if you take it slow, and drive carefully. However the brand Pontiac leaves a lot to be questioned about dependability. You know what they say "Poor Ol' Ninny Thinks Its A Cadillac". My point is, its not exactly what you'd call reliable. The Civic is much more economical, and reliable. 

Ohh, and another car company that has never released a FWD car is Jaguar.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

In slippery conditions, Posi-traction type of differential will make a BIG difference. (limited slip differential)

I remember a Road and Track (or C&D) test years ago that determined:
(all things being equal)
A RWD vehicle with posi-traction will outperform a FWD vehicle on ice or snow.
A FWD vehicle with posi-traction will perform as well as AWD on ice or snow.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

MacNutt said:


> Front wheel drive is a joke. No motorsport has EVER been dominated by ANY front wheel drive car. Does this tell you something?


The Austin Mini dominated the Rally scene in the 60's as well it won countless road races all over Europe and it was FWD.

Laterz


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## talonracer (Dec 30, 2003)

iPetie said:


> One feature of front wheel drive which you have forgotten is the advantages of driving on snow and ice. FWD is clearly superior in this respect to RWD.
> 
> Everything else you say I agree with completely. I would never own a performance car that wasn't RWD.


You and Macnutt can stick your rwd.....! Let's go find some windy mountain roads and my AWD Talon will leave you on the canyon walls.

RWD.... pffft. Old school. Next we'll be on "there's no replacement for displacement"


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

iPetie said:


> One feature of front wheel drive which you have forgotten is the advantages of driving on snow and ice. FWD is clearly superior in this respect to RWD.
> 
> Everything else you say I agree with completely. I would never own a performance car that wasn't RWD.


The ONLY advantage that FWD has in ice and snow is the fact that the majority of the vehicle's weight (the motor) is situated directly over the driving wheels. And, even then, the FWD car is terribly unbalanced (they often have a 70/30 weight bias on the front wheels....pure death in a sharp corner at high speed).

The old Volkswagen Beetle was rear wheel drive... it's pancake flat four engine was located directly over the rear wheels. And it was amazing in the snow! Better than anything else on the road at the time, actually.

Does this make rear wheel drive superior in the snow?

Not a bit.

Bottom line here? For those who have stuck with this post and are still interested...


Get an all wheel drive vehicle. They are the very best in the snow. Except when travelling downhill. Then you are on your own. Nothing will save you from a crash when flying downhill on compacted snow and ice better than a well-balanced vehicle...and you WON'T get that from any front wheel drive car currently on the market. They are very heavy on ONE END and very light on the other. Expect mayhem when you lose control in one of these things. It WILL happen. Trust me.

If you have a rear wheel drive vehicle....

Make sure you put some serious weight into the trunk when the snow flies (a few concrete blocks). Then reduce your speed, and don't imagine you are superman in the snow.

Get some seriously good heavy lug tires too. "All-seasons" just don't cut it. Sorry. (Even on an SUV).

If you have rear wheel drive then you need to put some serious traction and some serious weight onto those back drive wheels. If you do...then you will be fine. And you will still have a better balanced vehicle than the front wheel drive crowd could ever dream of. This matters.

And it WORKS!.

A fgew years back, I spent most of a a snowy january afternoon towing FWD Hondas and Toyotas out of the ditch on a hilly section of this island.

I did this with a 1967 Beaumont 283 rear wheel drive. The old Beau had a spare 283 (stripped) engine block in the trunk (weight over the drive wheels) and positraction. It also had tractor-lug winter tires. I towed one Honda Civic out of the ditch THREE times that afternoon. Uphill!!

When I towed a 4WD Toyota Land cruiser out of a deep gully using a long chain...I got wild cheers from the crowd who had gathered. Everyone loves a Chevy!

I drove that old GM beast for about two years...and then sold it for three hundred more than I'd paid. Now THAT is an "economy car".

And it never ever got stuck in the snow.


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## seetobylive (Aug 4, 2004)

I 've always thought that rear wheel drive (which I own) is much easier to regain control over a car. Granted in snowy, icy conditions it can be easier to lose control if you don't have back weighted. But if you do lose control you ahve a fighting chance of getting it back. It is harder to lose control (in most scenerios) but once you have lost it enjoy your double double as you glide to the ditch


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Put some real weight over the back tires of a rear wheel drive vehicle...and make sure you have REAL snow tires on it (not "all-seasons")...

Do that, and you will be walking past all of the cheesy front wheel drive vehicles that have ended up it the ditch. You may even end up towing several of the four wheel drive city-type SUV's out of the snow-filled ditches, if you care to. (most have wussie tires on them, and are not fit for anything better than dry roads).

FWD is a scam. It is just a cheap way of building cars when union labour gets very expensive. And FWD is dying as we speak.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

MacNutt said:


> And FWD is dying as we speak.


The only place that FWD is dying is in the eyes of the NA manufacturers that have come to the conclusion that they can't make them better than the Japanese and Koreans.

I use to ice race a '86 Honda Prelude up in Minden Ontario and just the fact that FWD cars had better lap times than the RWD drive cars even when both had ice tires on says allot about FWD cars and there abilities.

Laterz )


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

talonracer said:


> You and Macnutt can stick your rwd.....! Let's go find some windy mountain roads and my AWD Talon will leave you on the canyon walls.
> 
> RWD.... pffft. Old school. Next we'll be on "there's no replacement for displacement"


Give me a RWD Miata with 70hp less than your Talon and i'll have your coffee waiting when you catch up at the bottom of mountain/canyon. 

Heck, my RSX is 40hp down on your car and i'll still keep up (stock for stock).

Its all about balance. I don't think the Talon is what you make it to be. I have driven too many of them to think otherwise. However, if you love it, more power to ya.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

talonracer said:


> You and Macnutt can stick your rwd.....! Let's go find some windy mountain roads and my AWD Talon will leave you on the canyon walls.
> 
> RWD.... pffft. Old school. Next we'll be on "there's no replacement for displacement"


there's a reason why all BMWs are RWD and why my battery is in the trunk
it IS all about balance, almost 50-50 in modern day BMWs
it's not that they can't make FWD, it's that they choose NOT to


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Hands down RWD has the best performance. Though AWD gives you the advantage of more grip, one must take into consideration the extra weight that the AWD mechanisms adds to the car.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

MacNutt said:


> Put some real weight over the back tires of a rear wheel drive vehicle...and make sure you have REAL snow tires on it (not "all-seasons")...
> 
> Do that, and you will be walking past all of the cheesy front wheel drive vehicles that have ended up it the ditch. You may even end up towing several of the four wheel drive city-type SUV's out of the snow-filled ditches, if you care to. (most have wussie tires on them, and are not fit for anything better than dry roads).
> 
> FWD is a scam. It is just a cheap way of building cars when union labour gets very expensive. And FWD is dying as we speak.


If adding weight to the back of a RWD car, make sure that the weight you are adding is secured and centered. If its not secured and centered, than you can seriously screw up the balence of your car, and the addition of this weight will do you no justice.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I don't want my cousin to have performance, she's SIXTEEN. I want her to be safe on the road, first thing is to make sure that the car is safe, I have no idea why the heck she got a Firebird in the first place but as long as the car is not spinning out of control under normal snow driving conditions then hey. The second part is up to her, drive a tad bit slower under the speed limits, be extra careful on turns, that sort of thing. If I could I would regulate the thing so it goes no faster than 165km/h and does 0-60mph in no less than 10 seconds.


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

andrewenterprise said:


> Hands down RWD has the best performance. Though AWD gives you the advantage of more grip, one must take into consideration the extra weight that the AWD mechanisms adds to the car.


Cha-ching.


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

dona83 said:


> I don't want my cousin to have performance, she's SIXTEEN. I want her to be safe on the road, first thing is to make sure that the car is safe, I have no idea why the heck she got a Firebird in the first place but as long as the car is not spinning out of control under normal snow driving conditions then hey. The second part is up to her, drive a tad bit slower under the speed limits, be extra careful on turns, that sort of thing. If I could I would regulate the thing so it goes no faster than 165km/h and does 0-60mph in no less than 10 seconds.


If its a V6 (likely) that is about the range of its performance, give or take a bit. They are heavy and SLOW.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Agreed. All wheel drive is the ultimate. Especially when the tires are just right for the conditions. No question about it.

Next best choice is rear wheel drive with great tires and some weight in the trunk. Serious weight in the trunk.

Worst possible choice is Front Wheel Drive with a turbo or nitrous on a short wheelbase car. Like a Honda Civic.

It's even WORSE with a giant wing on the back of a short wheelbase FWD car (Lifts the front drive/steering wheels at a crucial moment, at high speed.)

Pretty much a guaranteed accident there. Carnage in a shoebox. They might just wring the thing out and bury the blood...instead of trying to extract you from the twisted mess after you hit the pole.
:-(


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

MacNutt said:


> Next best choice is rear wheel drive with great tires and some weight in the trunk. Serious weight in the trunk.


Serious *SECURED* weight.


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

andrewenterprise said:


> Serious *SECURED* weight.


Even if its secured, I am not a fan of the set up. Its fine for getting started, but its got the pendulem effect in turns. Not pretty. You have to drive like a granny to survive a corner.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

RWD cars are fun to drive for sure, I drove an 85 Corolla GTS my buddy had before and it was awesome fun, but my cousin needs a safe car not a fun car.

Yes I acknowledge that I sound like and feel like an old person.


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