# Permit - To Finish Basement?



## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

Hi,

New to the forum, so hopefully someone can clear up some questions I have.

I bought a house 2 months ago, and decieded to finish off the basement just last month. The basement was completely empty, aside from a rough-in washroom with vents (it was done to code).

Since then, I have framed it, vapour barriered it, drywalled 80% of it, and hired an electrician to upgrade the panel from 60 - 200amp.

Today, I got a visit from the cities building inspector saying I had to stop working and take out a permit. I was shocked. "A neighbour put in a complaint," and I have to get a permit to contiue work - - - or do I?

When the inspector came, I was about 80-90% finished dryalling the entire basement, and basically told him the previous owner left the basement like this and I am just finishing up the last 200sqf or so... He was ok with that, but he saw six four inch holes in the rafters that I drilled out to get venting through... He said this is a big problem - obviously. I knew you werent allowed to do that, but its my house - right?

I went to the building centre and applied for a permit today, paid the $130 and gave them the drawings. They said it will take upto 10 business days for them to respond.

My concerns are that they will make me take down drywall to see if the framing is up to code. I did it myself and it ppprobably isnt upto code 100% but should be fine, just the hasstle of taking it down is a pain. 
Questions I have are:

1. What if I continue to keep working even though I dont have the permit yet? Waiting for one? The inspector didnt take any pictures...

2. What if I get the permit, and the inspector makes me take down drywall, could I refuse?

3. What if there are defecincies found, do I have to fix them? What if I dont. Main reason I ask this is I wont dont think I will be able to fix the rafter holes, along with being able to afford to have them fixed. Do I have a time frame??

4. What if I just stop working on the basement and 'quit'.

Anyone been through something like this similar, any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
Canuck


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

>but he saw six four inch holes in the rafters that I drilled out to get venting through... He said this is a big problem - obviously. I knew you werent allowed to do that, but its my house - right?

OK, this is the primary problem you have. You think that you can do whatever to your house because it's yours. You can't. Fact is -- you are not allowed to do things that compromise the safety or structural integrity of the house, because it may fail and injure you -- or the next people to own the house. That's why there are building codes - to ensure that any work done meets minimum standards of safety. 

You drill out rafters, you compromise the strength of the rafter in a big way. Then next big snowstorm, the roof falls in. Insurance company sees you did a bonehead mod that caused the damage, they void your insurance. You lose house when the bank calls the mortgage. Connect the dots here... 



> When the inspector came, I was about 80-90% finished dryalling the entire basement, and basically told him the previous owner left the basement like this and I am just finishing up the last 200sqf or so... He was ok with that,


Lying is a great start. Not. One word of advice -- never post the city you live in here.

>My concerns are that they will make me take down drywall to see if the framing is up to code.

On interior, non-load-bearing walls more likely to look at the electrical and the plumbing. This is why you get inspections -before- you drywall. But big deal -- so you cut out a panel, show them that the electical was done correctly, patch the hole and repaint.

> 1. What if I continue to keep working even though I dont have the permit yet? Waiting for one? The inspector didnt take any pictures...

You want to game the system, right? The system will win in the long term. AND if you do make mistakes that cost someone their home or their health later... 

The more you do now, the more you may have to rip out later. Stop screwing around already and get professional help.

> 2. What if I get the permit, and the inspector makes me take down drywall, could I refuse?

Sure. You could also get your house condemned and be forced to leave when the city revokes the occupancy permit.

> 3. What if there are defecincies found, do I have to fix them? What if I dont. Main reason I ask this is I wont dont think I will be able to fix the rafter holes, along with being able to afford to have them fixed. Do I have a time frame??

Sorry? You are asking if you are called on code violations do you 'have' to fix them? See response to #2. Affordability is not an excuse, it was you what shot yourself in your own foot.

> 4. What if I just stop working on the basement and 'quit'.

They can still inspect, and any existing code violations still have to be rectified.

You are up a gum tree with this one. Quit weaseling and do what has to be done, properly.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

canuck123 said:


> Hi,
> 
> New to the forum, so hopefully someone can clear up some questions I have.


Oh my, where to even start?



canuck123 said:


> I bought a house 2 months ago, and decieded to finish off the basement just last month. The basement was completely empty, aside from a rough-in washroom with vents (it was done to code).
> 
> Since then, I have framed it, vapour barriered it, drywalled 80% of it, and hired an electrician to upgrade the panel from 60 - 200amp.
> 
> Today, I got a visit from the cities building inspector saying I had to stop working and take out a permit. I was shocked. "A neighbour put in a complaint," and I have to get a permit to contiue work - - - or do I?


Yes, you must legally stop work immediately.



canuck123 said:


> When the inspector came, I was about 80-90% finished dryalling the entire basement, and basically told him the previous owner left the basement like this and I am just finishing up the last 200sqf or so... He was ok with that, but he saw six four inch holes in the rafters that I drilled out to get venting through... He said this is a big problem - obviously. I knew you werent allowed to do that, but its my house - right?


Only if you paid cash for the house. If you have a mortgage, part of your responsibility is to keep the home in good repair. (Remember the "first loss payable" clause in your insurance is to your bank or mortgage company.  ) I'm not sure what you mean by "rafters" as they are under the roof in your attic. I suspect you mean the floor joists. Cutting holes that large in them can affect the structural soundness of the house and that is why the inspector states it is a big problem. 



canuck123 said:


> I went to the building centre and applied for a permit today, paid the $130 and gave them the drawings. They said it will take upto 10 business days for them to respond.
> 
> My concerns are that they will make me take down drywall to see if the framing is up to code. I did it myself and it ppprobably isnt upto code 100% but should be fine, just the hasstle of taking it down is a pain.
> Questions I have are:
> ...


You will be breaking the law. Simple as that. And believe me when I say the inspector doesn't need pictures. He will have notes on the progress and will be able to tell if any further works was done since his visit.



canuck123 said:


> 2. What if I get the permit, and the inspector makes me take down drywall, could I refuse?


I am surprised you even ask such a question. Of course you cannot refuse without severe repercussions legally.



canuck123 said:


> 3. What if there are defecincies found, do I have to fix them? What if I dont. Main reason I ask this is I wont dont think I will be able to fix the rafter holes, along with being able to afford to have them fixed. Do I have a time frame??


You were responsible for any deficiencies, as you surely are to do the repairs as ordered. Usually a time frame is given by the city.



canuck123 said:


> 4. What if I just stop working on the basement and 'quit'.


That is what you must do for now, but be prepared for the city to make certain demands before they will issue a proper permit.



canuck123 said:


> Anyone been through something like this similar, any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> Canuck


You've dug yourself a very deep hole, but I wish you luck in solving what could have been avoided by checking local building bylaws first.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

You have cut large holes in the rafters and or trusses. That is a big no no. You would have no choice but to repair what you have done. The renos on the walls pale in comparison to what you have blindly done to the integrity of the house. The structure has been altered and now you may or probably have a dangerous situation. If you don't fix it you wouldn't be able to sell the house down the road.


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## johnnyspade (Aug 24, 2007)

There was a similar question here posted 2-3 weeks ago, working with permits when doing renovations, etc. In that post I mentioned someone I know in Vancouver who decided to finish his basement before selling the house. He spent in the tens of thousands to finish it to a pretty high spec, new bathroom, pre-wired for a media center, etc ... all without permits.

He didn't have any problems during construction and no inspector showed up. His problem came when it was time to sell. From what I recall, the first buyer requested permits for the renovation as it was pretty clear work had just been done. Because there weren't any, the space wasn't legal and the buyer's bank wouldn't mortgage it because the space was uninsurable. After this first debacle, they were forced to remove "renovated basement" from the real estate listing. He did eventually sell but a bit of a loss, including all the money he had sent on the renovation.

Stopping what you have done so far and getting permits is the best thing you can do. If any inspections are required, you may need to redo some of what you have already done but it will be easier now than to have all the headaches later.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

*Just to clear things up, when I wrote 'rafters' I meant BASEMENT FLOOR JOISTS. Sorry for the mis-understanding, I was a little stressed yesturday...*

Anyways, thanks for the replies guys, you've given me more of an idea of what can/would/could happen.

I am not going to try and break the law (any more) by not doing what the inspector says... etc. I just wanted to know if I had the right to since I am clueless about the buidling code - and especially when it comes to finishing your basement.

Couple more questions I have.:

1. Someone mentioned that its my responsibility to keep the home in good repair if I have a mortgage on the current property. Well this isnt the case, I took out a home equity line of credit on my primary residnce (valued at 500K and paid clear) and used that to buy this current house I am having problems with - there is no mortgage on the property. Can you elaborate more on this please?

2. There is no load bearing walls in the basement. There is one 44ft steal beam with about 6 posts holding it up which is in the centre of the basement, holding up the floor joists. Other than that, there is nothing else...

3. As for fixing the floor joists, like I said I put 3-4 inch holes in 6 of them. I was told the way to fix them would be 'sistering' two foot 2x6's on each side. The only problem to this is there are wires on both sides, so I would have to unhook all the wiring from the panel.... and re-root them again.

The only other option I see is to completely take out, and replace them - which one do you think is more effective - cost/time wise... both would probably be up to code.

4. And finally, why havent I gotten anything in writing (yet) In reno shows, I've seen inspectors post a stop work order on the house on people - but nobody has given me anything. Why?

5. The electrical work I've done was all with a permit, and passed. The pluming was done to code by a 30+ years experienced plumber, but without a permit. I am kinda worried about 'framing' - I did that all myself, I use to be a framer couple years ago and am good at it, but not sure what the code requires... looking into that now. 

6. Sorry for any silly questions - like I said I am completely new to this.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

johnnyspade said:


> He didn't have any problems during construction and no inspector showed up.


Yeah, building inspectors won't know you are doing work until you apply for a permit (or someone drops the dime on you). It's the homeowner's responsibility to apply for the permits and seek the inspection. And as noted, the future cost of not doing so can be from expensive to catastrophic.


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## teeterboy3 (May 22, 2005)

Another very big thing to consider having a permit for is there are also regulations on how much finished space you can have. It is figured out based on the total sq footage of your house, compared to your lot.

In 2008 we wanted to finish our basement. So we applied for the permit. Found out that houses in our area can have no more than 60% of the lot sq footage as finished living space. This is done so, so you don't turn a residential property into a flop house I guess.

But at first application we were denied because even at our current state, we were already 'over'. We had to appeal based on the fact that the way our lot was divvied off of the lot beside us years and years ago would have never been allowed presently.

Secondly the city owns right up to our front porch. Our whole front lawn is city land, because when they were originally planning our street there was thought that it might be a 4 lane thoroughfare. That never happened. So when we appealed, we appealed on the basis of whole lot size, including the city property, as well as our lot. We also had to sign that we were not going to turn the basement into an apartment. Which that was never the intention. In the end it was approved, because the lot should have never been created as it is. I think we have the smallest lot in the city!

Anyway, the point is, no matter what you do to your house, never ever start a thing unless its paint or paper without a call to the building division of your city hall, to see what you need to do to start.

Permits, contrary to what a douche-bag contractor told me are absolutely of value and worth the money. They provide you with the sanity that if you hire someone, the work they are doing is up to code, and proper. And if you are DIYing it, proof that you've done it right. There should never be a moment where you don't consider a permit before you ever start hammering.

Do they not show Mike Holmes on TV in your neck of the woods?

The dude or two before me, decided he's rewire a bedroom. Took knob and tube wiring and spliced it with masking tape to a lamp cord and ran that to a ceiling lamp through puff insulation, next to ceiling joists. My friend that rewired my whole house, a master electrician said we lived in a time bomb for the 7 years we were here, not knowing. Thank god the whole house was rewired.

You can save money avoiding permits, and doing it yourself, but that does you little good when you are burned alive in a fire, or in your case the house collapses on you, or worse someone else and you're found legally responsible.

Seriously, stop what you are doing and wait, and do it the right way.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

If you ever plan to sell this house, following the rules, getting a permit, and having it inspected to make sure it's up to code could be the difference between making a sale and not making a sale. Pay now or pay in a few years, your choice. Or you could have Mike Holmes come and take a look and see what he thinks. Heck, you could even get yourself on TV!


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

canuck123 said:


> *Just to clear things up, when I wrote 'rafters' I meant BASEMENT FLOOR JOISTS. Sorry for the mis-understanding, I was a little stressed yesturday...*
> 
> Couple more questions I have.:
> 
> 1. Someone mentioned that its my responsibility to keep the home in good repair if I have a mortgage on the current property. Well this isnt the case, I took out a home equity line of credit on my primary residnce (valued at 500K and paid clear) and used that to buy this current house I am having problems with - there is no mortgage on the property. Can you elaborate more on this please?


Well, no, because we don't have all the facts on your specific situation. The general principle though is that you are responsible for keeping the condition of your house to a certain standard both for mortgage and for insurance purposes.



canuck123 said:


> 2. There is no load bearing walls in the basement. There is one 44ft steal beam with about 6 posts holding it up which is in the centre of the basement, holding up the floor joists. Other than that, there is nothing else...
> 
> 3. As for fixing the floor joists, like I said I put 3-4 inch holes in 6 of them. I was told the way to fix them would be 'sistering' two foot 2x6's on each side. The only problem to this is there are wires on both sides, so I would have to unhook all the wiring from the panel.... and re-root them again.
> 
> The only other option I see is to completely take out, and replace them - which one do you think is more effective - cost/time wise... both would probably be up to code.


Sistering the joists will be way easier than replacing them. Sux about the wires, but that's the price of 'shoot first, aim later'. But you HAVE to do it, to avoid your refrigerator ending up in the basement by express delivery. I'm not sure about using 2 foot long 2 x 6's -- I would have guessed that you would need longer sisters. CHeck this out before starting... 



canuck123 said:


> 4. And finally, why havent I gotten anything in writing (yet) In reno shows, I've seen inspectors post a stop work order on the house on people - but nobody has given me anything. Why?


Who knows? It's probably coming pending your response to the permit application.



canuck123 said:


> 5. The electrical work I've done was all with a permit, and passed.


 Thank goodness.



canuck123 said:


> The pluming was done to code by a 30+ years experienced plumber, but without a permit.


Notsogood, but I would ask the plumber to lead the inspector through the work. If the plumber is well known for doing respectable work, the inspector may not require opening the walls (as much).



canuck123 said:


> I am kinda worried about 'framing' - I did that all myself, I use to be a framer couple years ago and am good at it, but not sure what the code requires... looking into that now.


Read your local code, but it is my impression that interior partition walls are not as critical as exterior walls and load bearing walls. The vapor barrier may need to be looked at.. Improperly installed, it can lead to rot and mould in the walls.

The other thing to look at is if this is going to be a rental property, make sure it is zoned properly for the number of living units you intend to rent. If you are making it a multiple-family residence, then you have additional code requirements for exits, firewalling and soundproofing between the units.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

I'd really wonder about chopping 4 inch holes through joists. This is a very real problem. Now, it was some old house a hundred years ago, when the beams were all 2x10's or 2x12's, a 4 inch gap will be less of a problem than on a new style house where the 2x8's are actually 1.5x7.25's. You will want to reinforce these areas, by sistering new joists to the old - but also try to alter things so you can eliminate the giant 4" holes. You will want to make this as secure as possible, and not just patch around the hole, but to go end to end. New houses and new lumber are just not as sturdy as the old school stuff, so really, stuff is really just passable without hacking giant holes through it.

Some people think it is ok to alter internal walls that are not "load bearing" - but that carries some caveats with it, since sometimes things happen, and a non-bearing wall ends up carrying load. My friend's house has that problem, where they took out two walls that separated the living room from the dining room. What ended up happening is that the floor upstairs decided to sag by 2 inches, simply because the joists in place were not sufficient to handle the long gap. So for 70 years, with the walls in place, everything was fine - but now, the floor is out like crazy, thus, he ended up having to reinstall the walls, or rather, by creating a short wall with two pillars going up into the ceiling.

My own house had a peculiar setting problem, something it probably had back onto the 30's when it was built. We ended up fixing it by tying the joists into the sill plates of the house with steel angle irons and carriage bolts, then sistering the joists that had failed. We also had to put a steel angle beam across the top of a window to carry the load from the sill and the joists into the masonry. Doing that managed to push the top of the stairway back into the proper place, where it had not been since sometime in the 30's...

Lots of people do lots of shoddy or incorrect work - so that is why they have permits in the first place. Nothing is more important than structure - you have to have structure - everything else is secondary. It's important to have inspections, then you can make sure that all of the subcontractors are doing the proper jobs, that plumbing and wiring is done right, and that there are no structural issues...


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Four inch holes in floor trusses. It is not a question of being illegal it is a question of possible structural failure. 

Stop what you are doing and get someone who knows what they are doing to figure out how to reroute the vent and then properly reinforce the damaged trusses.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

canuck123 said:


> 1. Someone mentioned that its my responsibility to keep the home in good repair if I have a mortgage on the current property. Well this isnt the case, I took out a home equity line of credit on my primary residnce (valued at 500K and paid clear) and used that to buy this current house I am having problems with - there is no mortgage on the property. Can you elaborate more on this please?


It may not be a problem for your mortgage company at the moment, but if you have an outstanding Order on your property, you (or the future buyer) will have problems getting financing down the road. 

Even if you stave off getting the Order by getting a permit, having an open permit sitting there can be a problem for financing or selling. It may not hurt you now, but it will likely be an issue in the future.... these things don't just quietly go away. 

Oh, and I'm not 100% sure, but I think if you do nothing and ignore an Order, you can be fined.



canuck123 said:


> 4. And finally, why havent I gotten anything in writing (yet) In reno shows, I've seen inspectors post a stop work order on the house on people - but nobody has given me anything. Why?


That's because this is not TV. 

The inspector will usually give you a chance to fix things by getting the permit and rectifying the problem before going through all the paperwork of issuing an Order and ensuring that you deal with it.... well, unless you are being a jerk.  But it's much less work for the inspector to just tell you to get a permit and fix the problem than to go through the hassle of getting an Order and forcing you to fix the problem. You may as well make life easy for the inspector by doing what you need to do, because ultimately, the inspector is the one who determines if this problem is complete.

I am not going to come down on you for not getting a permit. Anyone can make an honest mistake... I have been in a similar situation. As long as you go through all the steps to get everything rectified (get your permit, get your inspections, etc) it's no big deal. You might have to open up some walls and re-do a little work, but it's not the end of the world.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

Becuase its not TV? I've talked to 3 contractors and they've all told me that they've gotten stop work orders before - they post a piece of paper/order on the job site requesting you stop any work - or fines will be issued. I didnt know that they only did this on TV... 

Nonetheless, I've stopped and appied for the permit. My main issue now is, how will they make me fix the floor joists I've put holes in?


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

How will they make you? Sorry, but there are 2 things I have to say.

1) It should be no question about *them* making *you *-- you should be fixing it ASAP because you have endangered the lives of the people who are in the house by making it structurally unsound. I'm not sure why this point doesn't seem to have sunk in for you.

2) If you have been reading the thread, the city will eventually get tired of asking you nicely and first post a legal notice, then eventually evict you from the house as unfit for habitation. Why do you want to know this, anyway? To repeat - this is NOT a matter of waiting around for the city to get the paperwork done.

As far as how to fix it, you already know that the joists have to be sistered, you can ask the inspector or a qualified contractor how long the sisters have to be, but the longer they are, the more stable it will be.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

You got caught now that you have you minus well go trough whatever hoops the city wants you to, I've done allot of renos to my house without getting a permit but I also have allot of friends who are home pro renovators and so far have done the work to a very high standard of finish, the one and only permit I had to buy was from the ESA when I switched my service from 60 to 100 amp Hydro wouldn't switch it without the paperwork from the inspector.

Laterz


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

canuck123 said:


> Becuase its not TV? I've talked to 3 contractors and they've all told me that they've gotten stop work orders before - they post a piece of paper/order on the job site requesting you stop any work - or fines will be issued. I didnt know that they only did this on TV...


If you read what I wrote....



> The inspector will usually give you a chance to fix things by getting the permit and rectifying the problem before going through all the paperwork of issuing an Order


You asked why you haven't received a stop work order yet like they do I TV. I answered with a reason why you might not of received one *yet*.

I never said they don't give orders. I said the usually give you a chance to correct things before handing out the order. At least, that's been my experience. I have a tenant who calls up the building inspector every week. 95% of the time, there's no problem. The remaining 5% of the time, he doesn't issue an Order right away, he just tells me that I have a problem and that it needs to be rectified... so we rectify it. Once I got a stop work order on that property--the work was fine, but the paperwork wasn't in place. Okay fine, we take out a permit, get the paperwork in place, get the structural engineer/architect to sign off on the work and we're okay.

But hey, it's up to the inspector how he or she wants to deal with it. Nothing stops them from handing out an order on the spot. Consider yourself lucky you are a getting a chance to get the permit first.

In any case, once you have an open permit, you don't generally have a time limit in which you must close it. But it will be a problem once it comes time to re-finance or sell the house... I assume you are not going to live forever and at some point in time the house will need to be sold.  

Banks don't like to finance properties if there is a permit standing open--the reason is that they do not want to incur the costs and responsibility for finishing the work and closing the permit if the loan is defaulted on. If you sell the house and don't disclose the open permit, you could be in legal hot water when the buyer's lawyer or bank discovers the open permit. If you sell the house and DO disclose the open permit, your buyer may not be able to get financing and then the deal falls through, or else you will be required to get the permit closed before the sale finishes.

Beyond that, I don't know what else they can do... hasn't happened to me.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

CanadaRAM - I think we are both mis-understanding each other :lmao:

In my last response, I was just asking, in what way, what will they make me do, to fix the joists? Will they make me sister them, will they make me replace them... Those are the only 2 possibilites I can think of, and was wondering if anyone else knew of any other solutions - or which one would you think they'd suggest - out of the two. Hope you follow.

Sonal - you mention that I am lucky to get a permit first. What do you mean? What if I was isued an order before I applied for a permit?

The only problem I see with leaving an open permit on the property (even though I will fix the suggested problems) is when I goto sell. The house doesnt have a mortgage, but I can see it having a problem to the buyers mortgage company... Even though this is a rental, and I plan to keep it for a while.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

canuck123 said:


> CanadaRAM - I think we are both mis-understanding each other :lmao:
> 
> In my last response, I was just asking, in what way, what will they make me do, to fix the joists? Will they make me sister them, will they make me replace them... Those are the only 2 possibilites I can think of, and was wondering if anyone else knew of any other solutions - or which one would you think they'd suggest - out of the two. Hope you follow.
> 
> ...


Generally some sort of sistering will do the trick. Are these plywood iBeam joists or 2" lumber?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I don't think you can replace floor joists in an already-built house. Sistering seems like your only option. What made you think making four inch holes would be a good idea? I mean, drilling for electrical cables is one thing, but those holes are like an inch, maximum. Good thing you didn't decide to go much bigger or we wouldn't be having this conversation, on the grounds that you'd be pinned in the basement underneath your main floor.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

canuck123 said:


> CanadaRAM - I think we are both mis-understanding each other :lmao:
> 
> In my last response, I was just asking, in what way, what will they make me do, to fix the joists? Will they make me sister them, will they make me replace them... Those are the only 2 possibilites I can think of, and was wondering if anyone else knew of any other solutions - or which one would you think they'd suggest - out of the two. Hope you follow.





> As far as how to fix it, you already know that the joists have to be sistered, you can ask the inspector or a qualified contractor how long the sisters have to be, but the longer they are, the more stable it will be.


Thought I covered that in my post.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

They are 2 x 8's lumber... Probably about 12 foot long...

I honestly didnt think it was that big of a deal - shows how much I know I guess. I knew for sure it was against code, but never ever did it cross my mind that the upstairs could collapse - and I am still almosttt certain that it wont - but that doesnt matter. I will be fixing it - and I wont do it ever again...


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

canuck123 said:


> CanadaRAM - I think we are both mis-understanding each other :lmao:
> 
> In my last response, I was just asking, in what way, what will they make me do, to fix the joists? Will they make me sister them, will they make me replace them... Those are the only 2 possibilites I can think of, and was wondering if anyone else knew of any other solutions - or which one would you think they'd suggest - out of the two. Hope you follow.
> 
> ...


The City won't tell you how to fix it... as long as it's fixed, they are happy. Whether you sister it or replace it or come up with a whole other solution is not their concern. If you have any doubts (or if they have any doubts) find a structural engineer or a registered architect to sign a letter saying that everything is okay.

You are lucky in that you don't have an Order, because if there is one, the inspector can come surprise you to see if the work has a) been stopped and b) been completed properly. And then while they are there, if they happen to notice anything that's not quite right, they can question it... why create more trouble for yourself?

Also, in these days of difficult financing, the mortgage companies are asking for more and more paperwork and doing a LOT more investigation. The more things on the record, the more things they can fuss over. I am a big fan of making life simple.

As well.... most tenants are fine, but every once in a while, you get one who is a real pain and decides to call up the city inspector for everything. (I have a couple of those.) If you ever get an issue that requires you to go to the Landlord and Tenant Board, that won't look too good on you.

I believe you when you say that you didn't think it was honestly such a big deal. It really may not be a big deal. One of the things I got snagged on was truly not a big deal... I got all my permit drawings done and submitted and stamped by a structural engineer, but apparently, that wasn't enough and they need a registered architect to stamp it. (And neither the guys at the desk nor the inspector knew that, which is why I didn't have an architect do it the first time around.) Why an engineer wasn't sufficient, I couldn't tell you. But the actual, physical work done does not need to change. It's silly, but it's still better for me to jump through the hoops to get everything straightened out now than get smacked unexpectedly by stuff later on.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sonal:

1. So technically, since I dont have an oder served to me to stop work, can I continue to work - on things like taping the drywall? When the inspector came, he just had a brief look around and said that you need a permit. Again, his only and major concern was the holes in the joists.... Or am I wrong?

2. The city wont tell me how to fix it, or how they want it fixed? Then how will they be satisfied with the work done? When do the inspectors come anyways. I have applied for the permit already - say I get it in a couple days. Do I continue to work and they come after I am done... or how does it all work? I actually e-mailed the inspector that came to the house asking similar questions, but he hasnt replied. Thinking of calling him monday...


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

canuck123 said:


> Sonal:
> 
> 1. So technically, since I dont have an oder served to me to stop work, can I continue to work - on things like taping the drywall? When the inspector came, he just had a brief look around and said that you need a permit. Again, his only and major concern was the holes in the joists.... Or am I wrong?
> 
> 2. The city wont tell me how to fix it, or how they want it fixed? Then how will they be satisfied with the work done? When do the inspectors come anyways. I have applied for the permit already - say I get it in a couple days. Do I continue to work and they come after I am done... or how does it all work? I actually e-mailed the inspector that came to the house asking similar questions, but he hasnt replied. Thinking of calling him monday...


You can continue the work once you get the permit, but the thing is, the inspector may need to see what's behind the drywall to confirm everything is structurally sound and meets code... so it may be kind of a waste to finish everything beautifully only to have to tear it open. 

I would stop, get the permit, let them see whatever they need to see, and if it passes, finish up from there. If it doesn't pass, you can find out what is a concern, fix it, and then call them again.... note that this doesn't necessarily mean that the inspector won't find something new that he has an issue with. (I have had that happen.)

The only concern he mentioned was the holes in the joists, but that doesn't mean that this is the only concern he has, or that it will be the only issue that pops up. It just means that this is the first problem he saw. 

There are specific points during construction where you need to call the inspector--I don't know all of them off the top of my head (there's a brochure at Toronto Building permits desk about all this) but after the framing is done and before you drywall is a big one. 

This is for City of Toronto, but I would imagine that other cities would require inspections as similar stages.
City of Toronto: Building Division - Building Inspections

How they decide that the work is satisfactorily done is if it is at least done to code. How you meet that code is up to you--there may be more than one way. Alternatively, what you do may not be exactly the way it's dictated in the code, but it may be structurally equivalent--that is where someone like a structural engineer comes in handy to sign off on something, but that is generally for more creative solutions. 

For example, (picking one of the few things I know a tiny bit about), fire codes requires a 1 hour burn separating each apartment. How that is typically accomplished is with 2 layers of 5/8ths drywall and 3" of Roxul in between. But I don't _have_ to do it that way, as long as I can show that there is a minimum 1 hour burn between apartments.... what if taking down the wall and replacing it is infeasible? Maybe another option is to use some kind of fire-retardant blown insulation in between and laminate the walls with 5/8ths. Maybe there's a special product I can apply to the walls that will work. Maybe something else entirely.... the City won't tell me which way to do it, but as long as I can prove a 1 hour burn and my method isn't creating new problems, it should pass.

Keep in mind that typically your building inspector is walking around most of the day inspecting buildings... he's probably no where near his desk phone or his email. Give him a day or two to respond.


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## shoe (Apr 6, 2005)

"A neighbour put in a complaint,"


1st thing id do is go and burn your neighbours car, what an *************


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

I know the guy that did it too. He lives couple houses down and was going to do the electrical for me. He had roughed in the entire basement, and passed that part.

But this is when we got into problems. At first he quoted me $$1500. I had given him $500 down and we agreed I'd pay him the balance when he was all finished and I got the certificate from the ESA saying it passed. He had different idea, he wanted another $600-$700 after the roughin, so he could buy the material.

Long story short, he wasnt gonna work if I didnt give him the $600, and I told him to leave cause I wasnt gonna give him anything until the job was done. We argued, he stormed off, and actually called back in a couple days asking for more money again... I told him no and he said, "I hope you have a permit for the basement..." and he hung up...


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

canuck123 said:


> They are 2 x 8's lumber... Probably about 12 foot long...
> 
> I honestly didnt think it was that big of a deal - shows how much I know I guess. I knew for sure it was against code, but never ever did it cross my mind that the upstairs could collapse - and I am still almosttt certain that it wont - but that doesnt matter. I will be fixing it - and I wont do it ever again...


Wow. In the early 80s I had to run 2x10s 16" on centre for a 12 foot span. So you are already cutting it thin (hopefully these are douglas fir). Now you essentially have a pair of 2x2s supporting a 12' span. Sister the compromised joists for the entire length. If that means pulling some electrical or even waterlines, so be it. Any other solution, OK it with the building inspector first.

BTW I have done several home projects and have always found the inspectors are more than willing to talk to you if it will avoid problems down the line.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

Update on my situation:

I got the permit issued and met up with the inspector the next day. He told me I had to sister 5 of the damaged joists with a full length 2 x 8.

We did that, and called him back the next day. He said we did a GREAT job and to call him back when we were all finished. He didnt look at anything else, he was in there for about 3 minutes and was on his way.

I was thinking he was going to find alteast something else for us to correct, but he was so happy with the work done he didnt even bother to look.

So it all worked out great, I am 10 days behind scheduale, but I've learned a great lesson in all this.

Thanks to all who replied, this is a awesome site!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Most building inspectors are not at all out to get you and can be a very useful source of information. 

Glad it worked out.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Well, clearly you are not in Toronto, since there are no inspections during the strike. 

Glad it all worked out for you.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

Nope, on the outskirts. 

Thanks guys, appreciate it.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
I'm glad the floor didn't cave in - which would have been more costly than 5 2x8's.

Sounds like the dude that messed up was a real case, looking to score extra loot and threatening you if you didn't pay up...


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Meh...

I just turned my garage into an office and did all the work myself, including electrical. I am now working on a bathroom and I have done all the plumbing. Permit schmermit. :lmao: Call me a libertarian.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

I put the holes in the joists myself. Didnt think it was a big deal - guess I was wrong. The dude that tried to get more money out of me was the electrician, that lived down the street. When I didnt pay him, he called the city on me...

Getting a permit for basement is basically all for $$$. Now after I am finished, they will reassess the value of the house, resulting in me paying an extra #300-$400 in property taxes to the city every year... Thats all it is.

I understand if it was a house from scratch, but to finish off a 1000sqf basemement is wrong.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Vandave said:


> Meh...
> 
> I just turned my garage into an office and did all the work myself, including electrical. I am now working on a bathroom and I have done all the plumbing. Permit schmermit. :lmao: Call me a libertarian.


I rip apartments down the the studs and rebuild them--new walls, new kitchens, new bathrooms, etc. No permit required except electrical, and that's only because we are replacing the knob-and-tube. There's quite a lot you can do that does not require a permit... if the OP hadn't put holes in the joists, he'd probably have been fine.

But I have a tenant who has the city on speed-dial, and at another property, I have a neighbour who enjoys getting people into trouble. Most of the time, they call, the city comes and nothing's wrong. Once in a while, there's something. We sort it out. Done.

Mind you, I am rather liking the strike right now, if for no other reason than no one can needlessly call up the city for the sole reason of hassling me.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

canuck123 said:


> I put the holes in the joists myself. Didnt think it was a big deal - guess I was wrong. ..
> 
> Getting a permit for basement is basically all for $$$. Now after I am finished, they will reassess the value of the house, resulting in me paying an extra #300-$400 in property taxes to the city every year... Thats all it is.
> 
> I understand if it was a house from scratch, but to finish off a 1000sqf basemement is wrong.


Seems to me if those those joists had collapsed it would have cost you $1000s if not 10s of $1000s. That inspector inspector saved you big bucks. 

FWIW in many areas finished basements are not assessed differently from unfinished ones. Even if they do consider that yours added value to the house it should be less than 10%.


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## canuck123 (Jun 30, 2009)

I still dont think the floor above the damaged joists had ANY CHANCE of collapsing - in normal living conditions ofcourse. The only way I could see them breaking is if 20-25 people stood ontop of those 5 joists, and jumpbed up and down all at the same time.... 

I am glad I fixed them though, I learned alot from doing so.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

canuck123 said:


> I still dont think the floor above the damaged joists had ANY CHANCE of collapsing - in normal living conditions ofcourse. The only way I could see them breaking is if 20-25 people stood ontop of those 5 joists, and jumpbed up and down all at the same time....
> 
> I am glad I fixed them though, I learned alot from doing so.


You are probably right... in the course of renovation of one building, we had discovered that the previous owner had completely cut through load-bearing studs AND floor joists to inset mailboxes into the wall.... thus, 3 stories of the building were basically being supported by mailboxes. 

Yet, it had been like that for over 15 years, with tenants moving themselves and their furniture in and out, and there no sign of any problem.

We had our structural engineer come out and we fixed everything to support it properly, but if we hadn't removed the mailboxes, we never would have known. The building may have been structurally flawed, but it wasn't in imminent danger of collapse.

Still, code is code, and I'd much rather be surprised by the problem because we happened upon it while renovating than surprised because the walls started to sag...


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

shoe said:


> "A neighbour put in a complaint,"
> 1st thing id do is go and burn your neighbours car, what an *************


You're an idiot plain and simple.

Do you own a house? Do you do unlicensed "repairs" to your house? You should be reported as well.

If I read the original post, or one of the follow-up posts, correctly... the guy who started all this stated he does not have a mortgage = does not own the house = is doing this to flip the property = warning bells should be going off everywhere for everyone around this house to ensure this is done properly so it doesn't immediately explode and kill everyone.

If that isn't the case - then my mistake - but it certainly sounds like it - and there is too much of that type of crap going on. I have two houses on my street that are crap because of it.

Don't do any more work dude until you get it inspected. Regardless of whether you "think" you did the framing right, you're either creating more work for yourself or creating a fire trap that someone else has to live in. Continue, and if the inspector does ask to inspect behind the drywall, then you're only going to be more pissed off.

Think about it - do it properly - save us all higher insurance rates and difficulties refinancing our homes.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

canuck123 said:


> Update on my situation:
> 
> I got the permit issued and met up with the inspector the next day. He told me I had to sister 5 of the damaged joists with a full length 2 x 8.
> 
> ...


And Canadian too, eh! Good job on doing the right thing.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I just read through this thread and am getting rather confused.

Assuming the OP had't cut the holes in the floor joists, do people still think a permit is required to do dry-walling?
I never heard of that.
Getting electrical work inspected is fair enough - so is plumbing, but dry-walling?

There was also a comment very early in this thread about having an "occupancy permit" revoked.
What occupancy permit? I'm pretty sure I don't have one; never had in any of the houses I owned in Quebec or Ontario.

I'm about to replace a toilet and a vanity - should I worry about getting a permit for that?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Jeez, based on your avatar, you don't look like the kind of person who replaces toilets. :lmao:

You don't normally need a permit for most basement work, especially if it's a reno. You may need to get one for new construction--depends how specialized the job is. I wouldn't think it's necessary for drywall though.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

fjnmusic said:


> Jeez, based on your avatar, you don't look like the kind of person who replaces toilets. :lmao:


Not the most pleasant job but you can't really get a plumber to do that.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

krs said:


> There was also a comment very early in this thread about having an "occupancy permit" revoked.
> What occupancy permit? I'm pretty sure I don't have one; never had in any of the houses I owned in Quebec or Ontario.


That usually applies to new construction. You can't have someone occupy the dwelling until it passes that, which is basically saying that the place is habitable. 

It doesn't comment on the quality of the work being done or check for conformance with building code... you can have a lot of stuff that is not up to code that is habitable, and you have something built perfectly to code that is not.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

It sounded from the post right at the beginning of this thread that if the inspector told me to stop the renovation and if I didn't comply, they would revoke my "occupancy permit".
I bought this house from the former owner when it was three years old - that was years ago. I don't have an occupancy permit. Should that have been part of the deed?
I don't understand how something can be revoked if it doesn't exist in the first place.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

krs said:


> It sounded from the post right at the beginning of this thread that if the inspector told me to stop the renovation and if I didn't comply, they would revoke my "occupancy permit".
> I bought this house from the former owner when it was three years old - that was years ago. I don't have an occupancy permit. Should that have been part of the deed?
> I don't understand how something can be revoked if it doesn't exist in the first place.


Editing because I was mixing stuff up:

The need for occupancy permits varies by city. Some places have them, some don't, and where they exist their uses vary.


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

In Ontario, once a new home has passed all inspections, etc., an "occupancy permit" is usually issued by the municipality. This allows people to move in, shows lenders that it's a legit home, and can get a mortgage and insurance. While, in essence, this permit continues in perpetuity, if a situation arises where major work is needed (fire, other structural catastrophe), the municipality can order work to be done, and order the structure to be vacated. In some places, the term used is "revocation of the occupancy permit".

The occupancy permit doesn't mean that all the work is finished. Just that it's safe for people to live there.

It should be stressed that we're talking about a highly unusual situation. The house would have to be in a very dangerous state indeed for a building official to order it vacated.


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