# I'm really pissed off at....



## emalen (Oct 10, 2004)

I'm really annoyed with Carbon Computing in Toronto.

I've wanted to improve the sound quality of my podcast for some time, so I decided to go to Carbon and see what they could help me with (since I was in the downtown area already). I purchased an iMic for $59.

Today I was at the Apple Store in Yorkdale and found the exact same iMic for $49. 

While I could be faulted for not doing any research into pricing, I was sort of under the assumption that Carbon would attempt to price their products along the similar lines as the Apple Store. Clearly I was wrong. A $1 or $2 difference is acceptable, but a $10 markup. I think that's pretty cheesy. Now since it would waste an hour of my day, I just kept the iMic that I purchased at Carbon, as I really don't want to waste my time to save $10 - but I can tell you (or Carbon) that they've definitely lost a customer.


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## ColBalt (May 16, 2005)

emalen said:


> I'm really annoyed with Carbon Computing in Toronto.
> 
> I've wanted to improve the sound quality of my podcast for some time, so I decided to go to Carbon and see what they could help me with (since I was in the downtown area already). I purchased an iMic for $59.
> 
> ...


A hard lesson learned is a lesson taught to others. I believe CC is one of the best Mac oriented providers in Toronto/Canada. But never, *EVER* buy an electronic device without research. If i could find the same thing at Future Shop for a cheaper price, I'd go to Future Shop. A hard lesson you learned, I would not be "pissed" at CC if I was you.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Unfortunately, Apple resellers such as Carbon have to make money, whereas Apple-owned-and-run retail stores are funded by Apple themselves, and therefore have the ability to sell for less, without going under. Independent Apple Resellers make little off their product as it is, and customers like you who complain over a measly ten bucks is why the rest of us will go out of business. Ten bucks is hardly worth whining over.


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## emalen (Oct 10, 2004)

it's not the money, it's the principle. Obviously 10 bucks isn't anything in the grand scheme of things - and the fact that i'm not returning it proves I don't really care. I just assumed that Carbon would be competitively prices.. clearly I was wrong.


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## ColBalt (May 16, 2005)

emalen said:


> it's not the money, it's the principle. Obviously 10 bucks isn't anything in the grand scheme of things - and the fact that i'm not returning it proves I don't really care. I just assumed that Carbon would be competitively prices.. clearly I was wrong.


Why would you assume store A would have the same price as store B?  As Lars was basically saying, stores are in competition with each other, even more so for a place like CC against Apple Stores. Obviously principle of price has something to do with "it", is this not why you initially complained, you over paid.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Do better research next time... don't blame Carbon, blame yourself for not looking before purchasing.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

The tribe has spoken, no pity here either.


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## ColBalt (May 16, 2005)

« MannyP Design » said:


> Do better research next time... don't blame Carbon, blame yourself for not looking before purchasing.


hear-hear!:clap:


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Yup. No sympathy here either. You can have the best price, or you can have the best service. They rarely come together.

For $10, you are never going to shop at Carbon again? Well, I'm sure they are really going to be sad losing a diva customer.

P.S. Compare Apple RAM prices and Carbons.


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## MacMaster (Jan 22, 2006)

*The High Price of Low Cost*

As a small business owner, I can tell you it's almost impossible to be the lowest price on every single item that I sell.

FutureShop will be cheaper on some items, WalMart will be cheaper on some items, and Costco will be cheaper on other items.

If I was to try to spend every minute of every day checking prices at every store, and then make sure that ALL of my products were priced the same or cheaper than everyone else ... I don't think I would be in business very long.

I understand that $10 bucks is $10 bucks. When you support an independent retailer you are paying for the better service and free advice that they provide every time you step inside their door.

Why should you pay a few dollars more for better service and free advice?

... it's the principle!


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## iSawTheLight (Jan 25, 2006)

Do you have to make an appointment to talk to a 'genius' at CC?

As a matter of fact, I think I'll drop by there tomorrow for the first time....without calling ahead


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## g4manwithipod (Feb 5, 2006)

*price*

Most mac stores aren't much different on price. Where you see the real difference though is in customer service; can you return/exchange without hastle when you need to?; will the store advocate for you if you're having warranty issues with (your product here)? That's where real customer service comes in. 
Carbon is usually bang-on with their prices, and if they aren't they'll usually match it. They have a great selection too, though i still shop around.
Compusmart isn't bad either.
CPused has annoying staff...one fartbag that won't leave you alone until you leave the store (i don't go there anymore - maybe they only feed their staff if they make a sale).
Oh well, live and learn.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Get thee to your new home.


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## emalen (Oct 10, 2004)

Firstly, I don't think Carbon's service is anything special. In fact, I was quite annoyed that the checkout process took forever. Why do they need all this personal info for a purchase? Secondly, I"m not looking for pity. I wrongly assumed prices would be 'within range' - not in every case. But with Apple. for instance, their computers are generally priced the same throughout - as they have standard pricing. I wrongly assumed with accessories it would be pretty close. I also assumed Carbon would want customers to buy at their store, thus ensure close pricing to their main competition - Apple. Thirdly, anyone who buys RAM in Canada at a retail store is a moron.... it's massively overpriced - buy online, substantially cheaper - ie. datamem.com - great apple prices for ram, fast shipping.


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## Sander (Apr 4, 2002)

Hey emalen,

I feel for you. It sucks to overpay but it happens. The lesson here is to always go to the Apple Store. Great selection, service and price. 

Sander

P.S. I would be careful to bash Carbon on this board. Just look at the banner. LOL. Seriously, it's just funny how people could rant on CPUsed, North Star, et al. but not Carbon. Hmmm. (I will probably get kicked off the board for this but I needed to speak up.)


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## jdurston (Jan 28, 2005)

I like a business that I can trust to have competitive prices (not necessarily the lowest). They will earn my repeat business. If I discover that I am being gouged I feel as if I am betrayed as a customer and I'll start shopping around to save a buck or two. If I trust a business I'll buy without shopping even if is costs slightly more, but one bad experience will have me out the door. 

I can't stand it when I see a store's sale price higher than another stores regular price. I just bought a camera at henry's that was regularily $450 and on sale for $350, Future shop had it "on sale" for $450. (I despise Future shop, but if they have the lowest price, I'll bite).

I don't think $10 is gouging. As I understand it selling Macs isn't all that profitable, you gotta make your profit on the accessories and software.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

While I'm not sympathetic to the user above, I don't see what's so special about Carbon's service either. I haven't found their employees particularly knowledgeable - in fact, every employee I've spoken to at the Apple Store has been far more helpful and knowledgeable - and have had a few questionable responses and seen a few as well. Case in point: asked about iPod radio remote, got pointed to an FM transmitter. Employee hadn't even heard about the product, and had to search through his database to find information on it. This was last Sunday. I've been in there a few times, and felt like I was in Futureshop again, and had to bite my lip to not step in and correct the salespeople. 

Seriously, what's with all the Carbon love? They're just another mediocre Mac shop with their own faults and crappy prices on peripherals. Having more Apple stores in Toronto can only be good for consumers. More competition = better prices, better service.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

Sander said:


> ....(I will probably get kicked off the board for this but I needed to speak up.)


No you will not....



Sander said:


> The lesson here is to always go to the Apple Store. Great selection, service and price.


Always!?!  
A little drastic.... IMO



> drastic |ˈdrastik|
> -adjective- likely to have a strong or far-reaching effect; radical and extreme


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

emalen said:


> Thirdly, anyone who buys RAM in Canada at a retail store is a moron.... it's massively overpriced - buy online, substantially cheaper - ie. datamem.com - great apple prices for ram, fast shipping.


Uh, well, anyone who pays shipping costs, brokerage, and waits for RAM is also a moron. You can walk into a store on College St. and buy RAM that works for your Mac for less. Unless you're into paying extra and waiting for the "Mac" specific RAM on their site. 

Your complaints about Carbon aside; you just needed to be a better consumer in this case, and if you're really fussed about $10, I'd hate to see what you do when you get a parking ticket.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Yeah, from my experience all mac stores charge more for the accessories than buying directly from Apple. Futureshop charges on average $20 more each accessory (look up the remote/headphone set for ex.). 

When I went to Carbon, I already knew from checking Apple.ca that the price for a video adapter was $25. When I went to Carbon, it was $29. So I asked if they'd price match Apple, and they did no problem, just had to check the website.

So yeah, lesson learned, check Apple's website first, and if it's cheaper, just ask them to match the price.



milhaus said:


> ...I'd hate to see what you do when you get a parking ticket.


Hey man, parking tickets are $&*%#@& rediculous.. $30 for parking somewhere I'm _supposed_ to?? Gimme a break...


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

emalen said:


> Thirdly, anyone who buys RAM in Canada at a retail store is a moron....


I was somehow on your side on this issue (I had people killed for 10 bucks US), but with that line , you lost me. 

Shall i say more, i think not.



Oh, about the dead........


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## Bighead (May 3, 2005)

This thread is going off track...

So what if someone wants to buy RAM from Holt Renfrew?! Who cares? It's still a free market economy last time I checked...


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

when is Holt Renfrew having a sale?


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## tedj (Sep 9, 2004)

haha. Jil Sander suit and some Kingston ram, please.

Really, emalen, get over the $10. I will personally EMT you the cash if you can't grow a pair soon. God this is pathetic. You'd think you were living in New Brunswick....

edit: Instead of the EMT, I'll buy you a six pack of Moose red.....me one as well. We'll bond. You'll forget about the great Carbon loss. We'll make prank phone calls: "pphht! I hate your store; it's cheesy, biotch!!"
Then, in a hungover remorse, we'll make valentines cards (home made, out of construction paper) to all the staff at Carbon Toronto.

I love you, man! Karookookookookoo!


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Sander - Carbon may happen to sponsor the board, ehMax may work for Carbon but bad mouthing Carbon (within reason - like any other company) isn't going to get you into any trouble.

To everyone, emalen is entitled to his opinion and although as he said he should have researched it doesn't mean we can attack people.


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## tedj (Sep 9, 2004)

but can we badmouth him, "within reason" (like any other member)?


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## emalen (Oct 10, 2004)

WOW, I have to say that I've never posted anything in my life that has caused such a storm of opinion (I generally just post answers or questions, not opinions!)

Let me say, perhaps my title was a bit inflamatory... I really am not pissed off, mabye dissappointed. While I understand competition and the little guy vs. the big bad apple store - i thought a $10 difference was a little large!

Again, as someone who blows money on frivilous ipods, I really am not upset about $10, I was just suprised that there was such a large difference in price.. that's really it.

Also, the RAM comment calling people morons, mabye a bit strong. I just find that I can get 1 gig of RAM for my iMAC G5 for 100 U.S. vs... 200-300 at Canadian Retails stores... a pretty big difference - even with shipping and brokerage.


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## Sybersport (Jun 7, 2005)

I think one of the problems here is that you're assuming Carbon purchased this product at some price below $49, such that selling at $49 would have given them a decent profit.

Now, if this is an apple branded product (I'm not sure if it is), then I would argue that Apple has proven time and time again that they're not too concerned about the happiness of their distributors (look at what happened with HP, and in general what goes on with their unwillingness to offer price protection.) So the chance exists that Apple is selling below or near the price that their distributors pay for the product.

If this is not an apple branded product, then I challenge you to prove to me how a small retailer could compete with apple when apple enjoys huge economies of scale.

Either way - the chance exists that Carbon paid $50 for this thing, and was just marking it up $9 to turn a decent profit - for example.

To me, the lack of service is a whole other issue - but on the topic of price, I don't think it's fair to consider it in isolation.


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## a7mc (Dec 30, 2002)

You need a reality check.

Carbon IS competitively priced:
$59: http://www.csctoronto.com/store/adv...Csid=1bf6fed228e30fd04a17d79fdcc046d8&x=0&y=0

$69: http://www.compusmart.com/Product/Default.aspx?SupplierPartNo=327006

$68: http://www.savedbytechnology.com/main/products.htm

Great... you found a cheaper price. That's the way stores work. Not every store has exactly the same price on every single product. Do you think every pair of jeans is priced exactly the same all across Canada? Do you think every single store is selling a Sony TV for the exact same price? Get a clue before complaining, and get over it.

A7


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## gozer (Jan 15, 2002)

Sander said:


> P.S. I would be careful to bash Carbon on this board. Just look at the banner. LOL. Seriously, it's just funny how people could rant on CPUsed, North Star, et al. but not Carbon.


absolutely, tread carefully.



Chealion said:


> Sander - Carbon may happen to sponsor the board, ehMax may work for Carbon but bad mouthing Carbon (within reason - like any other company) isn't going to get you into any trouble.


yes, you're only allowed to make unreasonable criticisms about the competition. 

in any case, do your homework before buying. i'm not sure why you don't just get them to price match or return it, then price match.


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## Optimize (May 7, 2005)

*Another data point*

Well, I too after a few tries have not been impressed with Carbon Computing's prices or service. Here are two examples.

I ended getting a case for my iBook from another shop for 20% less and without the pained looks on the staff's faces.

I did get good information once to questions about printers, but found that they were 20% more expensive than the major competitors. When I asked if they would price match, the answer was a nice smug "they are not obligated" since the quoted stores were currently sold out.

Then I remembered Vistek, down the street. They had it in stock for 20% less, which I did mention to Carbon, who *now* was willing to price match. I said, that I didn't feel obligated and walked down the street.

So, to each their own experience. But, the sum of mine combine to make me disinterested in spending my money at the place around the corner from my house.

Thank goodness for VIstek. They always have given me excellent information, totally devoid of attitude. Whether I was buying or just doing research.

Cheers.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

For my next Mac, I'm looking for a store that will give me the support I will need if I try some mix of Windows-OS X...pretty much talk me through the problems.

Considering I have no car, they'll need good email/phone support, so I'm either looking at a small shop with good support (TO or Ottawa) or just Apple.ca if it's not worth the trouble for a local store. 

It's not of much use to me if their first line is 'bring it in' -- cab fare is more than shipping. Suggestions? There's no rush for me because I'm waiting for 12/13" Intel Mac notebooks and Windows booting...otherwise I'll just run my current iBook into the ground *knocks on wood*. 800 mhz still does most of what I want. 

Right now I've heard good stuff about MacDoc, but not much about the The Mac Group in Ottawa. What stores offer free and helpful after sales out-of-store advice?


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

Sybersport said:


> I think one of the problems here is that you're assuming Carbon purchased this product at some price below $49, such that selling at $49 would have given them a decent profit.
> 
> Now, if this is an apple branded product (I'm not sure if it is), then I would argue that Apple has proven time and time again that they're not too concerned about the happiness of their distributors (look at what happened with HP, and in general what goes on with their unwillingness to offer price protection.) So the chance exists that Apple is selling below or near the price that their distributors pay for the product.
> 
> ...


Either you have low prices and poor service, or have high prices and excellent service knowledge. I won't say where I think Carbon lies, but I will say I do think it's the best of all the Mac dealers in the GTA . . . ;-)

I don't think your argument about large stores/buyers being able to sell for cheaper is legit; just look at Futureshop versus small PC shops. And the iMic's not an Apple branded product. 

Frankly, Carbon is competitively priced on Mac specific products . . . However, anybody who buys printers, CDRs, and non Apple or iPod specific or direct brands there isn't being a very smart consumer. If you want to buy a Lacie drive, it's where you should buy; if you want an HP printer, you'll be able to find it cheaper somewhere else.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

a7mc said:


> You need a reality check.
> 
> Carbon IS competitively priced:
> $59: http://www.csctoronto.com/store/adv...Csid=1bf6fed228e30fd04a17d79fdcc046d8&x=0&y=0
> ...


Interesting. Apple, the multi-billion dollar corporation has the best price in town. Surprising indeed.

As for price-matching, I think it's a joke. Why are you playing two shops against each other? Obviously, you are not a loyal shopper to either shop. Therefore, all you are is somebody with money.

You choose:
Be treated like a loyal customer with a long-standing business relationship.
Be treated like somebody who always wants the best price, no matter what, and is willing to jump ship at first chance.

If price is important, shop where there is a better price. Don't trash a retailer because they won't price match.

If a business relationship is important to you, don't run around to other dealers looking for a better price.

It's kinda like dating a nice girl, and then complaining that she doesn't put out as much as the girl down the street. Nice!


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## a7mc (Dec 30, 2002)

> It's kinda like dating a nice girl, and then complaining that she doesn't put out as much as the girl down the street. Nice!


LOL!!!! That is a CLASSIC quote! Well done.

A7


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

GuyToronto... that is a funny line.  

Couple quick points I'd like to make:

- The idea that ehMac.ca censors discussion about Carbon or any other retailer... Totally, 100% false. This and dozens of other uncensored threads archived on the forum are an attest to that. 

- Regarding pricing on Griffin products:
Griffin Power Jolt: Apple Store price - $34.95. Carbon in stock price - $29.95. 
Griffin iCurve: Apple Store price - $59.95. Carbon in stock and on display price - $49.95
Griffin iFM: Apple Store price - $59.95. Carbon in stock price - $49.95. 
Griffin Radio Shark: Apple Store price - $99.95. Carbon in stock price - $89.95

- Carbon has developed long-term relationships with thousands upon thousands of Mac users in both Toronto and Kitchener. Plug - Next week, they are having a customer appreciation promotion:










http://www.carbonation.com/
/plug  

Not too mention, Carbon has and continues to support ehMac.ca, something that Apple would never do. 

I think Carbon has lots of amazing positive things to offer the Mac community. 

I know that everything can't be perfect all the time, but I do know that the effort to be perfect is there.

I'll reiterate, ehMac.ca is always open to discuss any and all things related to us Mac users in Canada. You can always feel free to say why you love the Mac places you shop and what you don't like about the Mac places you shop at.


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## Silverbullet (Sep 27, 2005)

I respectfully but totally disagree with the OP. 

$10 bucks is a pathetic amount to whine about. Consider the business implications of this. Carbon probally buys that thing for like 42 dollars, so marking it up to 59 instead of 49 is not unreasonable when they are still only making 17 dollars. (Assumption I know but the margins in the computer world is very low) Plus, multipuled by the volume that Carbon would get compaired to the Apple store, they can't be cheaper or within a range of a couple bucks on everything. 

Plus, the amount of time it would take you to go to carbon, and then the apple store, and then back if carbon was cheaper, I mean, is 3 hours of your afternoon worth 10 dollars? Even min. wage employees earn more than that. Plus the costs with trasnportation, if you drive then all the savings was just eaten up in gas. If you take the subway then its $6 loss to save $4 plus your loss time. 

All in all if I lived next to Carbon I would spend the next 10 bucks and save the afternoon.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

What exactly does Carbon offer in addition to high prices? 

Knowledgeable salespeople? Not in my experience . . . 
Good warranty service? Not better than the over the counter replacement service on iPods and authorized service at the Apple store . . . 
Good return policy? Nope . . . 
Great sales? Hardly . . . 

Carbon was the best option until the Apple store came into town. Look at what they had to compete with before then; CSC, CPUsed, North Star. Yeesh. Competition is wonderful. I'd love to see Carbon give me a reason to shop there again, but I don't have any reason to do so right now.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

milhaus said:


> What exactly does Carbon offer in addition to high prices?
> 
> Knowledgeable salespeople? Not in my experience . . .
> Good warranty service? Not better than the over the counter replacement service on iPods and authorized service at the Apple store . . .
> ...


I don't accept the notion of high prices at all. Carbon doesn't sell on just price, but pricing is extremely competitive... look at the samples I just gave on the Griffin stuff. 

There's always room for improvement when it comes to customer experience. And I know Carbon employees and management (Not just including myself) take feedback, criticisms and suggestions posted on ehMac.ca very seriously and will more importantly, act on feedback. I do know for a fact that Carbon is full of extremely knowledgeable Mac staff with years and years of accumulated experience. We have over a dozens Apple certified techs on staff and require all sales staff to achieve the highest level of Apple sales training. 

There are lots of product lines that Carbon carries that the Apple Store does not. If you're in Toronto and into Pro Audio or Pro Video, you'll find tons of stuff at Carbon SP that you won't find at the Apple Store. 

Other things like warranty... We offer the full extent of warranty that Apple allows its resellers to offer and there isn't really any difference there. Why shop at Carbon? Many things being equal, why not shop at Carbon? Why not buy from a local business that supports the local economy? Why not feed my kids? 

Regarding sales, starting tomorrow, Carbon is announcing the new Carbon Computing Credit Card where customers can receive 6 months No Payments same as cash. While often, there isn't very much room in the Mac biz to offer steep cash discounts for sales promotions, they do try to make things as fun as possible! I mean come on, what other Mac store would have an ad with the tagline, "Play with yourself."  :lmao: 

Plus, quite a few new Carbon Academy classes coming up. 

And hey, did I mention Carbon Computing supports ehMac.ca!?


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## Repeater04 (Nov 29, 2004)

a as fun as possible! I mean come on, what other Mac store would have an ad with the tagline, "Play with yourself." s fun as possible! I mean come on, what other Mac store would have an ad with the tagline, "Play with yourself." as fun as possible! I mean come on, what other Mac store would h as fun as possible! I mean come on, what other Mac store would have an ad with the tagline, "Play with yourself." I think you're absolutely right ! ......but I have seen that line s o m e w h e r e ? Yea, .......Now I remember. I don't think it was at a Mac store!


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## yuwing (Aug 13, 2005)

Some people say $10 is a tiny amount and you shouldn't bother with it. Oh please! Gimme a break. Just because you can afford to lose that $10, doesn't mean everyone can. Some people are post-secondary students with thousands of dollars in debt (which I am). If you're able to save $10, a few here and there, it'd be really helpful. 

Please keep in mind that not all members of this community are rich and able to afford losing money . 

I'm not siding with anyone in particular here. I think the threadstarter is at fault for not checking out the prices, or researching on product before buying. I hope he will learn in the future before making purchases. I'm also kind of dissapointed in some of the members here who look down on people just because some people's view of money differ from theirs.


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## Sybersport (Jun 7, 2005)

milhaus said:


> I don't think your argument about large stores/buyers being able to sell for cheaper is legit; just look at Futureshop versus small PC shops. And the iMic's not an Apple branded product.


I'm not sure what you mean by looking at Future Shop vs. the small PC shops - but either way, what I am getting at is economies of scale, and that the more buying power a business has, the cheaper they can purchase their goods. Now Future Shop may choose to sell that product at a price that is similar to the small PC shop, but the argument still holds that FS has much more buying power and technically could sell much cheaper if they wanted.

But, why sell cheaper if they don't have to? Which is usually why they don't.


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## Sybersport (Jun 7, 2005)

yuwing said:


> Some people say $10 is a tiny amount and you shouldn't bother with it. Oh please! Gimme a break. Just because you can afford to lose that $10, doesn't mean everyone can. Some people are post-secondary students with thousands of dollars in debt (which I am). If you're able to save $10, a few here and there, it'd be really helpful.
> 
> Please keep in mind that not all members of this community are rich and able to afford losing money .


I don't think that's the point people are necessarily trying to get across.

You have to consider opportunity cost, in this case what your time is worth. If it takes you an hour to travel to a computer store to save $10, then what was your time worth for that hour?

Or, if you can order that product online and save $10, but have to wait 5 days to receive it - is $10 worth it to get the product in your hands immediately?

Ultimately, you can't consider these decisions in isolation, which is what I think alot of people were trying to get at.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

I just love that self-righteous 'poor college kid argument'.
I know a way you could have saved $59.  



yuwing said:


> Some people say $10 is a tiny amount and you shouldn't bother with it. Oh please! Gimme a break. Just because you can afford to lose that $10, doesn't mean everyone can. Some people are post-secondary students with thousands of dollars in debt (which I am). If you're able to save $10, a few here and there, it'd be really helpful.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

You could have bought it second hand, I paid $30., It's buyer beware really,
If you don't shop around then you only have yourself to blame.

We've all bought things for too much money in the past I'm sure,
I bought my Sawtooth for $799.+ tax, Now it's worth $399.+ tax or less.

D


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## yuwing (Aug 13, 2005)

Sybersport said:


> I don't think that's the point people are necessarily trying to get across.
> 
> You have to consider opportunity cost, in this case what your time is worth. If it takes you an hour to travel to a computer store to save $10, then what was your time worth for that hour?
> 
> ...


I meant people taking $10 so lightly. not really related to the thread but yah just wanted to express my feelings.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

ehMax said:


> I don't accept the notion of high prices at all. Carbon doesn't sell on just price, but pricing is extremely competitive... look at the samples I just gave on the Griffin stuff.


Like I said, pricing at Carbon is competitive on Mac specific products. Try to buy a printer or a monitor there, and you're throwing away money. Take a look at your prices on CD-Rs, for example. Or, take a look at the newly introduced Dell 2005 Widescreen. It's not a little bit more; it's a ton more than you can get it for at Dell.ca, with free shipping(20%+). And frankly, the service or experience is not enough to justify that. At those prices, I'd expect a sales force that is more knowledgeable about Apple products than I am. 



ehMax said:


> There's always room for improvement when it comes to customer experience. And I know Carbon employees and management (Not just including myself) take feedback, criticisms and suggestions posted on ehMac.ca very seriously and will more importantly, act on feedback. I doubt that Apple really cares what we're chatting about here. I do know for a fact that Carbon is full of extremely knowledgeable Mac staff with years and years of accumulated experience. We have over a dozens Apple certified techs on staff and require all sales staff to achieve the highest level of Apple sales training.
> 
> There are lots of product lines that Carbon carries that the Apple Store does not. If you're in Toronto and into Pro Audio or Pro Video, you'll find tons of stuff at Carbon SP that you won't find at the Apple Store.


Like I said, not in my experience and since I live in the neighborhood, I'm there fairly frequently, and I do purchase things from the store. My lovely iLap, for example, whose price I bitched about here, incorrectly, since they were much more expensive at CSC and other locations. However, the level of knowledge, especially of new products, has not been impressive by any standard.



ehMax said:


> Other things like warranty... We offer the full extent of warranty that Apple allows its resellers to offer and there isn't really any difference there. Why shop at Carbon? Many things being equal, why not shop at Carbon? Why not buy from a local business that supports the local economy? Why not feed my kids?


What happens, for example, when I buy a powerbook from you, and within 7 days, I change my mind? Can I bring it in for a full refund? I think not. If I use a store like FutureShop, I can. The Apple Store has a more lenient return policy as well, though I'm not certain what it is. Since I research my purchases pretty throughly, that's not a big issue for me, but it is a price you pay for shopping at smaller stores. Of course, if I'm mistaken about your policy, then I apologize.

EDIT: Fixed quotes for readability


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

Sybersport said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by looking at Future Shop vs. the small PC shops - but either way, what I am getting at is economies of scale, and that the more buying power a business has, the cheaper they can purchase their goods. Now Future Shop may choose to sell that product at a price that is similar to the small PC shop, but the argument still holds that FS has much more buying power and technically could sell much cheaper if they wanted.
> 
> But, why sell cheaper if they don't have to? Which is usually why they don't.


Uh, well FS = big store, small PC store = small store. Which one has more buying power and gets things cheaper? Right, so by your argument, Apple sells cheaper because it buys cheaper; Carbon can't sell cheaper because it buys fewer units. Doesn't seem to deter the small PC stores, does it?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

milhaus said:


> What happens, for example, when I buy a powerbook from you, and within 7 days, I change my mind? Can I bring it in for a full refund? I think not. If I use a store like FutureShop, I can. The Apple Store has a more lenient return policy as well, though I'm not certain what it is. Since I research my purchases pretty throughly, that's not a big issue for me, but it is a price you pay for shopping at smaller stores. Of course, if I'm mistaken about your policy, then I apologize.


Just so I'm clear:

1) You buy a brand-new, sealed, sparkling fresh computer.
2) You take it home, open it, use it, put your greasy fingers on it, rev the hard drive up, burn a few CDs.
3) You change your mind, and want to return it for a full-refund.

Question:

1) What price does the store then sell it for to the next customer? Full price? Would you be happy to pay full-price for an opened, used computer?
2) Do you expect the store to discount it for the next customer? Who eats that cost? The store? Why should they have to eat their profits because you changed your mind?
3) Why would you expect to use a computer for a week, and NOT have to pay anything?


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Just so I'm clear:
> 
> 1) You buy a brand-new, sealed, sparkling fresh computer.
> 2) You take it home, open it, use it, put your greasy fingers on it, rev the hard drive up, burn a few CDs.
> ...


Because I can? At least if I buy at FS or the Apple Store, I can . . . Like I said, the Carbon experience adds *nothing* for me, so why should I pay more for less potential service . . . For example, if I was a switcher and wanted to try out the Mac, but found I just couldn't live with it. . . Or, if I purchased a product and was horribly unimpressed with the build quality (say I bought a 1st gen Nano) . . . Or, say I bought an Airport Express thinking it was capable of extending the range of all wifi routers (an impression I got from an employee at Carbon, BTW), and found out that it could not. 

I would want a refund. I'll shop at stores with crappy return policies for price and service. Again, I'll retierate my point about all of the small Mac specific stores in the GTA: they provide neither. And who pays for that isn't relevant to me: Apple seems to get rid of these products through their "open box" fire sales, as does Future Shop.

Apparently, you think that consumer friendly policies and low prices are a bad thing, or at least that's been the trend in your posts. If you want to be had as a consumer, fine . . . Apple retail stores and FS seem to be doing just fine despite these policies . . .


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

guytoronto said:


> If a business relationship is important to you, don't run around to other dealers looking for a better price.
> 
> It's kinda like dating a nice girl, and then complaining that she doesn't put out as much as the girl down the street. Nice!


roflmao :lmao:

That is a great analogy.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

milhaus said:


> Because I can? At least if I buy at FS or the Apple Store, I can . . . Like I said, the Carbon experience adds *nothing* for me, so why should I pay more for less potential service . . . For example, if I was a switcher and wanted to try out the Mac, but found I just couldn't live with it. . . Or, if I purchased a product and was horribly unimpressed with the build quality (say I bought a 1st gen Nano) . . . Or, say I bought an Airport Express thinking it was capable of extending the range of all wifi routers (an impression I got from an employee at Carbon, BTW), and found out that it could not.
> 
> I would want a refund. I'll shop at stores with crappy return policies for price and service. Again, I'll retierate my point about all of the small Mac specific stores in the GTA: they provide neither. And who pays for that isn't relevant to me: Apple seems to get rid of these products through their "open box" fire sales, as does Future Shop.
> 
> Apparently, you think that consumer friendly policies and low prices are a bad thing, or at least that's been the trend in your posts. If you want to be had as a consumer, fine . . . Apple retail stores and FS seem to be doing just fine despite these policies . . .


Sounds like the small dealers are better off not having you shop with them.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Stores that charge a 15% "restocking" fee suck much worse than stores that don't.

Sure you might not want to act like FutureShop with a policy that offers pretty much unconditional returns up to 14 or 30 days, depending on the product, but 15% of a product that may not have even been opened is a stupid amount to charge.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Sounds like the small dealers are better off not having you shop with them.


Like I said, I'll shop at stores with crappy return policies when the price is right. And I'll shop at stores with crappy prices when the return policy or the service is right. 

But hey, if the guys at Carbon and other stores would rather me not shop there, then that's fine . . . I've got lots of options, and I rarely return a product (those were just hypotheticals, BTW). However, it is nice to know that I can. 

If you enjoy throwing away money with 15% restocking fees, poor return policies and unspectacular service, go ahead.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Restocking fees are a retailer's way of saying "We don't do free rentals."


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

Responses to various comments:

> I did get good information once to questions about printers, but found that they were 20% more expensive than the major competitors.

So what you're saying is the advice was worth nothing to you. Zero dollars, even when they did offer to match price with a shop who had stock. So, if the advice was worthless to you, why did you spend their time and expertise to ask for it? Because you wanted or needed the information. But it wasn't worth a penny out of your pocket.

(Clue: low price retailers often advertise loss-leaders on products they know they have little stock on. They sell a couple at a loss, and then upsell the customers for the next week who come in looking for that non-existent deal. That's why no retailer in their right mind will match price on any sale item that is not in stock and available at the other place.)


> .The Apple Store has a more lenient return policy

Yes, Apple charges a 10% restocking fee on any opened box within a limited time, and no returns on anything that isn't a stock configuration. That's more lenient?

If you open a box or use a product, you diminish its value. It is no longer saleable as a new product -- and you're the first guy who'll yell "They sold me a used machine!" if you open a box and find it's a repack.

Well guess what? What do you think happens with the goods FS and BB get back from the consumers who mucked with them and exercised a return option? Right back on the shelf to be sold to the next sucker who figures that they are getting better service from the bigbox store. 

Besides, have you actually TRIED to get any warranty service from FS? If you didn't buy their extended warranty, they literally do not want to know who you are. They hand you a piece of paper with the handwritten phone number of a third party repair shop across town who does warranty work for that brand. And they turn their back and walk away. Literal true story re: a JVC video component that failed after 2 months.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

CanadaRAM said:


> Besides, have you actually TRIED to get any warranty service from FS? *If you didn't buy their extended warranty*, they literally do not want to know who you are. They hand you a piece of paper with the handwritten phone number of a third party repair shop across town who does warranty work for that brand. And they turn their back and walk away. Literal true story re: a JVC video component that failed after 2 months.


What do you think should happen if you don't have a warranty?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Sometimes you really don't know which cable you need, especially in the world of serial/parallel/25 or however-many pin, etc. And sometimes, you don't know if that old peripheral will work anyways.

This is what Staples' and FutureShop's liberal return policy is good for. It's not like they'll be able to tell you which cable you should use anyways.



guytoronto said:


> Restocking fees are a retailer's way of saying "We don't do free rentals."


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Sometimes you really don't know which cable you need, especially in the world of serial/parallel/25 or however-many pin, etc. And sometimes, you don't know if that old peripheral will work anyways.
> 
> This is what Staples' and FutureShop's liberal return policy is good for. It's not like they'll be able to tell you which cable you should use anyways.


Restocking fees are a retailer's way of saying "It's not our fault you can't figure our what cable you need. We still don't do free rentals."


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## Optimize (May 7, 2005)

*Mr CanadaRAM - here's a few relevant details*



CanadaRAM said:


> Responses to various comments:
> 
> > I did get good information once to questions about printers, but found that they were 20% more expensive than the major competitors.
> 
> ...


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## g4manwithipod (Feb 5, 2006)

*Holy crap!*

Wow! i can't believe the difference in price! 
If i saw that kind of a difference in $ and the place wouldn't offer a price match, i would make myself a ghost as fast as i could. 
Ten $ difference in price is understandable and reasonable (so long as CC will match it), but $100!?

With that said: Consumers vote with their $. If CC or whomever can get away with a no-returns policy, they will so long as people keep buying their stuff. It's no use moralizing the issue because both consumer and seller have a stake in the purchase (it just stinks sometimes when the power dynamic shifts after purchase and the consumer is left holding an unwanted product). FS and Apple Store have a very liberal policy that is geared to a certain kind of consumer; the kind that feels more secure making a purchase with a 30 refund period. The A.S. does have a restocking fee $150 for my ibook, and i felt more secure making a purchase there than CC or anywhere else for that matter, just because the choice was made available to me - not that i would take them up on it. 
Bottom line is: buyer beware!


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Restocking fees are a retailer's way of saying "We don't do free rentals."


I guess I'll be buying from FS, Staples, or BB, where they do give free rentals. . . and just as good service as I get from Carbon or any other Mac shop; which is to say, not great service. 

However, I stand corrected on the AS's return policy; like I said, I don't actually use the return policy very often; but I do like to know that it's there . . .


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## g4manwithipod (Feb 5, 2006)

*Free rentals.*

Here, here!
I agree!
Here's to free rentals!
I say retailers who boo-hoo over returns need to look around and see who does have liberal return policies, and who is successful.
FS is HUGE
BB is HUGE
Staples is HUGE
Is there a pattern here?
I would bet Bill Gate's net worth that if CC had their style of return policy that CC would hav many more customers than they do, if only just because customers like the CHOICE of being able to return if they need to. That kind of policy attracts people to a store (part of the reason that FS is so HUGE. I don't think FS or CC (per purchase made) would have very dissimilar rates of return if CC switched. Buying habits are the same all around (as well for returns).
It's all about choice (ever been to Baskin Robbins?)


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Does a liberal return policy make a company huge, or do huge companies have the ability to offer liberal return policies?


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Does a liberal return policy make a company huge, or do huge companies have the ability to offer liberal return policies?


Well, how much does Future Shop lose on open box returns? 10% or so. Sell it as an open box return; and since nothing at Carbon or any other Mac dealer ever goes on sale, people will be lining up to buy open box returns. See post on the Apple Store's monthly fire sale; how popular was that? 

But you can always try to take your "The owner is always right" attitude out there and open a store. You're starting to remind me of the Simpson's comic store guy.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

Optimize said:


> Today:
> 
> $600 at Carbon http://carbonation.com/sales/index.html
> 
> $500 (in stock) at CSC http://www.csctoronto.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=356


A quick search of the local PC stores located the same printer for $439. How does one justify a $160 price difference? Competitively priced, yeah, right . . .


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

milhaus said:


> Well, how much does Future Shop lose on open box returns? 10% or so. Sell it as an open box return; and since nothing at Carbon or any other Mac dealer ever goes on sale, people will be lining up to buy open box returns.


Congratulations. You now have a small business owner selling Apple products at or below cost just to keep customers from slamming him on message boards.


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## Sybersport (Jun 7, 2005)

milhaus said:


> I guess I'll be buying from FS, Staples, or BB, where they do give free rentals. . . and just as good service as I get from Carbon or any other Mac shop; which is to say, not great service.
> 
> However, I stand corrected on the AS's return policy; like I said, I don't actually use the return policy very often; but I do like to know that it's there . . .


You need to open an ING account. I say this because they are a very interesting company: They fire their customers.

I wonder how long you'd last?


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Sybersport said:


> You need to open an ING account. I say this because they are a very interesting company: They fire their customers.
> 
> I wonder how long you'd last?


I love that. I wish more companies would tell some of their customers to get lost. NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!!

I can't believe how rude and demanding some people can be.


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

I can't belive people actually shop at futureshop! does no one else get bothered by some #[email protected] following them around trying to presure them into buying something? I can't go there because I walk in the door and wanna turn around and punch the guy following me around the store!


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

Sybersport said:


> You need to open an ING account. I say this because they are a very interesting company: They fire their customers.
> 
> I wonder how long you'd last?


Actually, I have many accounts with ING, and they certainly don't want to fire me. That's a very interesting point you bring up, because ING gives me service and price. And in fact, I just received a "customer appreciation card" from Carbon - since I do shop there occassionally and have yet to be a bother, I suppose. I wasn't going to go, but I guess I'll have to pick up my "free gift" now.

Just because I'm not satisified with service from a local Mac dealer because I know I can get better prices and service from other stores makes me a bad customer? Like I said, I hardly ever return anything; but I like to know that I have a choice. 

But if you're willing to settle for bad prices, return policies, and mediocre service, go right ahead. Again, I hope you enjoy being bent over every time you have a problem with a purchase. I try to shop where I won't.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Congratulations. You now have a small business owner selling Apple products at or below cost just to keep customers from slamming him on message boards.


Let me remind someone of one of the first post in this thread, where someone said you can't criticize Carbon on this board. But I'm sure Carbon gets enough positive PR from this board so one long thread from someone who is alledgedly an unwanted customer won't matter. And I'm so sure this thread will make Carbon lower prices. I've even said a lot of positive things about Carbon in my posts. 

Companies of all sizes often readily absorb losses to keep their customers happy; if you're not willing to do so, then you must be able to lose a bunch of customers. Look, I didn't even support the original post criticizing Carbon: my point is that they have the right to sell at whatever price, and I have the right not to buy or shop there. 

I'd like to see them do better, not worse, but if that makes me an unwanted customer - who has dropped - over the last five years anyways - over 5K into that store (when it's convenient for me) - I'll shop somewhere else.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

Mrsam said:


> I can't belive people actually shop at futureshop! does no one else get bothered by some #[email protected] following them around trying to presure them into buying something? I can't go there because I walk in the door and wanna turn around and punch the guy following me around the store!



I'm a virtual customer of Futiveshop, I haven't had a single problem.
I have found and had free delivery of many bargains from this company.

D


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## ender78 (Jan 23, 2005)

milhaus said:


> Well, how much does Future Shop lose on open box returns? 10% or so. Sell it as an open box return; and since nothing at Carbon or any other Mac dealer ever goes on sale, people will be lining up to buy open box returns. .



Lets take that printer cable as an example. Such items, as well as many accessories have profit margins of %50 or higher. Selling even things like an iPod at $20-30 off still takes FutureShop to the break even point.

Most people do NOT abuse return policies. I have worked retail before, and in some cases, a person not happy with Product A, would upgrade to a more expensive, more profitable item.

People like return policies for peace of mind. Lets not forger that over the years, there have been many products that may not work as advertised with our Macs. Is it really my job as a consumer to scrounge every corner of the web to see it there is some obscure reason why this product wont work? When I want to buy a product that I have extensively researched [Hard Drive always bought at Canada Computers] and know is compatible I will shop on price alone. If I walk into a store and say "I'd like that one!", what kind of work has the salesperson done. What 
service have they performed, I simply want the best price. I expect the retailer to know what the best price is on the market and remain competitive. The retailer should know that with peripherals like printers, they make their money on paper and ink when the customer returns to the store.


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## ender78 (Jan 23, 2005)

I was in the market for a Crumpler laptop bag recently. I had seen retail prices for the bags as well as prices on E-BAY. The bag retails for $189 at Carbon [and everywhere else I could find]. I was able to pick up the bag for US$123 including shipping [came out to $143 Canadian]. I am unsure as to whether or not I will pay taxes as the product is coming from the US. Even if do, I will save myself approx CDN$40 + taxes. Did I go into carbon to see what this bag looked like, yes I did. Did I have to ask for service and help instead of being helped right away, yes [far from the quick email responses I had from the E-BAY seller]. I also wanted to pick up a sleeve for my soon shipping Macbook, I was told hey had none in stock, could only place large orders, and had no idea when that would be. They did not have the colour of bag I wanted in any case. Carbon wants to charge me a 25% premium. I do understand that they have costs that the E-BAY retailer does not, but the do have the advantage of a store front, this is an advantage and not a liability.

Carbon did have another 15" case in stock. It was in a sealed bag which I asked the salesperson to open, she refused. Do stores like this ask us to buy an unbranded product exclusively on their recommendation? If I can't even open a box in store, what kind of faith does the vendor have in the product they sell. If I cant feel the material and fit, why the hell am I bothering with retail instead of going online and getting a much better price.


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## ender78 (Jan 23, 2005)

milhaus said:


> A quick search of the local PC stores located the same printer for $439. How does one justify a $160 price difference? Competitively priced, yeah, right . . .



Where !!! I am in the market for this printer and have not found it cheaper than $499 anywhere.


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## ender78 (Jan 23, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Congratulations. You now have a small business owner selling Apple products at or below cost just to keep customers from slamming him on message boards.


And why does the "little guy" automatically get to make larger margins on product. I will give anyone a chance to grab my business but they will need to combine service and price. The little guy's service will need to be twice as good as the "big guy" in order for him to compete.

I bought some memory from Macdoc recently. The price I paid may not have been the best on the market but his tech did install it in my Mini [I was afraid of cracking the case].


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

> as well as many accessories have profit margins of %50 or higher.


This statement is too general.
It has some truth but is to general.

Tim Hortons more than likely makes more money on the coffee than the sandwich.
Or more on the bagel and cream cheese than a plain bagel.
"Opps, two just as general statements."  

Personally, I do not like the eBay comparisons as they are a different business model.

--
Nothing personal just continuing constructive conversation.


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## ender78 (Jan 23, 2005)

Heart said:


> Personally, I do not like the eBay comparisons as they are a different business model.


I don't disagree. I know that it really isn't fair that a store like Carbon has to spend $$$ on a store while EBAY vendors have none of those costs. Its a tought market, I would have loved to come to some compromise with regards to price [I did pay US$20 for shipping, I would have been more than happy to have that premium go to the store]. The $144 price I quoted included shipping. Were it not for shipping, prices would have been even lower. Many retailers will NOT negotiate price, I don't expect someone to sell product at cost, but expecting a customer to pay sticker price is also not fair.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Carbon had the amazing Crumpler 12" School Hymn, which was bought for me by a person who said their service was exceptional. They even had the discontinued better constructed red model I had on my list virtually unavailable elsewhere.

As suggested earlier in this thread by my reference to redflagdeals, I'll shop around some, but for some things, no doubt Carbon is the best. I'll have to go there one day. But I work near an academic reseller, have a computer with internet access, and live at something of a distance, so it might not be in the next few days.


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## lightbulb (Oct 24, 2005)

I've probably spent about $25 - $30K on Mac and related stuff in the past 3 years without having been loyal to any 1 shop. Outside of FS / BB which I would would not deal with for Mac, Carbon has only ever seen about $1K of my funds. Too bad because they're only a 5 minute walk away. I most recently went in before Xmas to buy a friend software as a gift but went away empty handed after being told the 15% return policy, even if un-opened. I've always found Computer Systems Centre to have better prices on a range of items, with CP Used among the worst. I've had very good experience with Apple stores, both on-line and Yorkdale; Vistek has benefitted from the majority of my purchases and I've most recently been signing cheques over to MacDoc.

A PS: I especially disliked Carbon asking for $100 extra to diagnose a G5 PM repair quickly (24 hours service); I took it to Click-on, who did it same day, which I believe is their regular policy, and had it repaired with a replacement part shipped by Apple, with-in 72 hours.


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## g4manwithipod (Feb 5, 2006)

*Doomsday will be soon...*

Doomsday will be soon...
Look to the skies! Is it a bird?; a plane? No, it's an Apple!!!
When the apple store moves into downtown - watch out apple resellers! If the Apple store can offer educational prices to students AND have a liberal return policy on ALL their products (including computers, especially if they are D.O.A. as my g4 ibook was before i made a straight-and-painless exchange after it had many kernal panics), then mighty Apple will RULE THE WORLD! Would CC do a straight exchange, or would they just try to service a lemon machine? People pay $ for peace of mind - exta warranties, good service, good return/exchange policy, yada-yada-yada. If resellers want to play the sympathy card in order to get/keep customers, then those resellers will eventually feel the roadrash of bankruptcy on their indolen, bloated bellies. Eventually, Apple will sell more specialty audio/visual stuff too. I'm not gleeful about this, but if resellers want my sympathy vote, then they need to give me a REASON! Scratch my back and i'll stratch your!


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## [email protected] (Feb 1, 2005)

Optimize said:


> It was I who was shopping for the printer. The printer there was $600. At their major competitors, of similar business size, in Toronto, the non-sale price was $500.
> 
> Today:
> 
> ...


Yikes. We're getting beat up a little in here!

You are correct. Our price for the R800 was high on our website. It's not a model we regularly carry, and we only get around to updating our website pricing when somebody orders it, or it's pointed out to us.

It's our hope in the next few months to have a live online store. Then we won't have to worry about these kinds of oversights.


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## g4manwithipod (Feb 5, 2006)

*consensus*

Given what seems to be the consensus here, i wonder if CC will change their return/exchange policy?
It might be worth their while...
I see open box specials coming our way guys!


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

:yawn: We've been down this road before. Not really this same topic, but I thought for another take on the "customer versus dealer" theme, it's still a relevant read.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

2 more points:

We are so used to stores refunding our returned merchandise that we forget:
THEY DON"T HAVE TO TAKE IT BACK.
We expect them to but really, they don't have to take it back and give a refund. 
If an item is defective the manufacturer is responsible. We buy it, we own it. 
I personally would buy at a store that gives refunds, though. 

Excessive? Mark-ups:
To get a feel of electronics mark-ups, go to Costco and check their prices. Their pricing philosophy is 7% above wholesale. So if you see a camera or printer or TV on sale at FS and Costco is higher priced, then FS is making low profits or has a special agreement with a vendor. FS and Costco usually sells same items at the same price so margins must be small. Stores like Costcoand FS, volume is key so smaller stores selling lower volumes like Carbon, need a niche/hook to keep them viable. Storefront is one way to attract customers and service is another. Pricing is sometimes outside their control, especially with Apple.


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## Optimize (May 7, 2005)

*Matt - no, not really*

No Matt, 

Actually the price difference was the same back at the end of October 2005, when I bought my printer from Vistek. 

It's now 3 1/2 months after it was pointed out to your staff why I went to Vistek and the same price differential is still in place.

The conclusion I can draw today is the same as 3 1/2 months ago - you don't care about losing my and other peoples business. 

So, don't pretend that it's otherwise. Sadly, I can assure that this was not my first, but my last attempt to purchase from the local store 5-minutes walk from my house.

EDIT

So, I really have to wonder now what the value of printer margin saved by your loyal salesperson is compared to the cost of publicity as these tales are read by the forum.

Sadly, it seems that only public exposure has prompted an examination of printer prices, which could just as easily have been done 3 1/2 months ago when the issue was politely brought up to the staff.




[email protected] said:


> Yikes. We're getting beat up a little in here!
> 
> You are correct. Our price for the R800 was high on our website. It's not a model we regularly carry, and we only get around to updating our website pricing when somebody orders it, or it's pointed out to us.
> 
> It's our hope in the next few months to have a live online store. Then we won't have to worry about these kinds of oversights.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

ErnstNL said:


> To get a feel of electronics mark-ups, go to Costco and check their prices. Their pricing philosophy is 7% above wholesale. So if you see a camera or printer or TV on sale at FS and Costco is higher priced, then FS is making low profits or has a special agreement with a vendor. FS and Costco usually sells same items at the same price so margins must be small. Stores like Costco and FS, volume is key so smaller stores selling lower volumes like Carbon, need a niche/hook to keep them viable. Storefront is one way to attract customers and service is another. Pricing is sometimes outside their control, especially with Apple.


Also keep in mind that FS and Costco and Tiger often buy out end-of-line inventory. When a manufacturer is clearing out a discontinued or about-to-be-discontinued model, the big boxes will make them a below cost offer on the remaining stocks. So for a couple of days or weeks, the discount retailer will have lower prices than anybody, and nobody else will have the product. Just it won't be the current model, and there may be other gotchas like costs to upgrade the out of date bundled software (like a Mini sold with OSX 10.3 and iLife 04. It may be on sale but it'd cost $200 to bring it up to equivalent with a current product). Warranties may also be less than you expect. A product with a 1 year warranty is often capped at 18 months from manufacture by the manufacturer, regardless when it was actually sold. So if you buy a closeout on a 'new' product that has been stocked for 1 year, you may only get 6 months warranty.

Also, some of their price-leader products are reconditioned, not new, and without full warranty. London Drugs is notorious for this. Another trick, any time you see "Warranty by importer" at LD, that's a tipoff that it is graymarket product they have brought in, and there is no manufacturer's Canadian warranty.

We've already discussed repacks. On another forum, there's a discussion of CompUSA who sold a repacked Powerbook as brand new and Apple is disallowing the machine's warranty because the serial had been registered over 6 months before to another customer. CompUSA is (so far) refusing to refund, replace or repair.

And we won't even talk about the rebate game.

Mass-market discounters have the volume and the money to play pricing games. They'll take a loss on a few products to get people in the door, then sell them the $20 Monster cables for $99 each. 

Because of their size, they can access advertising co-op funds. You don't think that FutureShop and TigerDirect actually pay anything to produce their advertising flyers do you? The manufacturers pay THEM to feature their products above others. The brands you see in the advertising aren't the 'best' brands, they're the ones who have bid the highest for the right to have a page of the flyer.) 

Smaller retailers pay more at the wholesale level (unable to access the high-volume pricing), have a higher cost of operations as a percentage of sales volume, and are still hit by Apple's predatory pricing that means that they can make only 3% - 7% on Apple branded goods, and then lose 2% of that right away to the charge card company when you whip out your Air Miles Visa. That Mini you bought for $749? The retailer netted about $ 10 out of the transaction after costs. So they are hoping you'll pay the retail price on the accessory - they make $25 on the Griffin iMic at $59 and $15 at $49, which is about as good as margins ever get, other than on cables.


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## g4manwithipod (Feb 5, 2006)

*Hmmm*

Gas companies make the same kind of arguement "don't blame us for high prices! We only make 0.01 a litre! Blame the government, blame the refineries, blame anyone else but us. I find it suspect when the oil companies claim poverty and they rake in billions in profit. It's probably because they count on selling more than 1 or 2 litres per customer that drives into the station. Oh, and would you like a doughnut/windshield fluid/air freshener or CD with that fillup?
CC or any other reseller isn't raking in billions - to be sure - but they are turning a profit. Otherwise, why would they be in business? They don't make a fortune off of one sale, but they do make serious $ off of the many sales they make. Isn't that the whole point of advertising...to draw in as many customers as you can in the hopes that they will buy as much as they can? I am not trying to vilify any reseller. Everybodies got to eat. All that I'm saying is "don't cry poverty! Resellers who get my business don't get my business because I'm feeling charitable toward them. If i want a Mac, i might go to CC. If i want to make a donation, I'll go to the Salvation Army.


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## [email protected] (Feb 1, 2005)

Optimize said:


> The conclusion I can draw today is the same as 3 1/2 months ago - you don't care about losing my and other peoples business.


Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I absolutely do care about losing business. Optimally, we would like to be able to satisfy every customer. Realistically, some customers cannot be satisfied no matter how hard we try.

We've had customer demand brand new products below cost, or they would bad mouth us to their family and friends. I kid you not. Customers try to blackmail us in our store. That is our worst case scenario.

Now, I'm not suggesting anyone in this thread would resort to such measures. We wish we could offer some of the great deals Future Shop and Best Buy can. Again, realistically, we don't have the volume or purchasing power to compete on that level. We wish we could price match everyone, but unfortunately we can't.

If anybody is ever in Carbon Computing, and you feel you aren't getting the best experience, ask to speak with me. I can't promise to make everyone happy, but I'll do what I can.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

g4manwithipod said:


> It's probably because [oil companies] count on selling more than 1 or 2 litres per customer that drives into the station. Oh, and would you like a doughnut/windshield fluid/air freshener or CD with that fillup?


Precisely. And do you get price matching on that jumbo Mars bar and the 1 l. of 2% with your local grocery store or Costco? You do not, you pay as much as 50% more. And you don't ask for a discount, either, because you are paying for the convenience of having available, in stock, and at hand while you are buying your gas. 

Thank you, you have made my point excellently.

(PS. Don't confuse oil company with gas station owner/lessee. Most gas stations are either owned or run under lease by individual business people who indeed only make $0.01 per litre or whatever, and don't participate in any wellhead , refining or distribution profits at all. It's like saying Apple makes a 30% profit margin on building machines, so the apple dealer doesn't have any business complaining if they aren't making enough)


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## Optimize (May 7, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I absolutely do care about losing business. Optimally, we would like to be able to satisfy every customer. Realistically, some customers cannot be satisfied no matter how hard we try.
> 
> We've had customer demand brand new products below cost, or they would bad mouth us to their family and friends. I kid you not. Customers try to blackmail us in our store. That is our worst case scenario.
> 
> ...



Matt,

You really might want to reconsider reading what I posted about my experience. I was happy with the information I got and wanted to spend my money at your store and would have been happy to have been met part way with price matching. 

This was not a price match with competitors that were in a different league, but the same size business in the same market. It would not have bothered me to pay a bit more for the printer to cover the good advice I received. However, you must keep in mind that it was your salesman who blew me off with his "I don't feel obligated to match price" response.

That's a quote. If he said he could partially match the price we could have proceeded from there.

Therefore don't come up with you can't please every customer arguements and insinuations about how difficult some customers can be.

That was not the case with me and your even bringing that up is an indication of where the bad attitude in the store is flowing from.


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## Optimize (May 7, 2005)

Here's my final thoughts:

I'm not upset with Carbon Computing, but rather feel saddened that they lost the opportunity to become a local retailer of convenience for me.

I'm not emotionally attached their lost sale and have not grief with them. 

I do wish however that Carbon and any other retailers reading this might take the opportunity to consider how many sales have eluded them that they could have captured with a different posture towards their customers.

We're not all out here with unreasonable demands. To take the valuable information on this forum and blame the customer for their experience is to lose on the opportunity presented.

I too have learned a great deal by reading these forums which have made me a more informed consumer by far. Some of the posters who always seems to be right on the money with his analysis is CanadaRAM. I'm really looking forward to dealing with him when it's time to get more memory. Likewise is was the benefit of your participation with this site that compelled me to keep retrying Carbon in the face of past unsuccessful buying attempts.

Cheers,


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Optimize said:


> I did get good information once to questions about printers, but found that they were 20% more expensive than the major competitors. When I asked if they would price match, the answer was a nice smug "they are not obligated" since the quoted stores were currently sold out.
> 
> Then I remembered Vistek, down the street. They had it in stock for 20% less, which I did mention to Carbon, who *now* was willing to price match. I said, that I didn't feel obligated and walked down the street.


Seems like the attitude was flowing both ways.


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## g4manwithipod (Feb 5, 2006)

So...let me get this straight: I buy a mac (litre of gas), and if i want accessories (mars bars) along with it, i should be prepared to spend up to 50% than at any other store - simply because they have it in stock?!?! So, if somebody is stuck for a product, or isn't making an informed purchase, then it's ok to price gouge? What ever happened to integrity? So for example, in New Orleans it would be ok to charge $5000 for a litre of water right after huricane katrina? What if you're the only store around with stock? What if you were that unlucky thirsty putz who didn't have time to go to the ATM before katrina hit? Would you suck it up and drink Mississippi? Would you clobber me because i was being a jerk (or worse) Look, last time i looked, there wasn't no shortage of mac stuff in Canada - and certainly not in the GTA. The store that charges a FAIR market value gets my REPEAT business. If i sniff that a store is trying to gouge me because they've seen my business a few times (HELLO MIDAS MUFFLER SHOP ON 4th AVE IN KITSILANO!), then I'll take a walk. Resellers should want my business, not my pity.


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## Chiquita Apple (Feb 14, 2006)

Hello People...
I've been a reader of the discussions for a while, but am only posting now because I mainly read for info before making purchases. 
Having been into most all Apple Resellers and the Apple Store in T.O. I've made the following observations....
The people at the Apple Store, seem to not have a passion for the products. They don't seem to get the whole mind set of true LONG TIME Apple users. They mainly seek to tell you what you want to hear and get you out back into the mall. It is in a mall, and that means they are attempting to push high volume, and with that customer service suffers. Kind of like at a small pub as opposed to a busy Richmond street club. 
At North Star I over paid $300 for my large format Epson Printer... so almost over paying... getting NO sympathy here. It just makes you seem like you want to complain for the sake of complaining. Like you need attention. As for the person with their $10 complaint, you really should shop around... maybe it's a female thing, but that's just what you do. Perhaps you were in a hurry and did not feel like investigating other stores prices, and you paid a premium for being in such a hurry.
At CSC, they are pretty much unwilling to exchange things, even if they have mislabled product... 
CPUSED well they are just PC people, down to the core.
Carbon's staff has always been very helpful with me, I've bought a lot there over the years, back even when they were on Dupont. I've never had a problem there, ever. I don't mind paying a little more to support a store that at times has gone above and beyond for me with tech support... when they are a retail outlet and that is not their job, but they take time to help. It's those little bits extra that keep me coming back. It's not a fast paced push you out the door would you like fries with that place. 
It is important to realize that some of the policies are not those of the reseller's but of Apple, and other suppliers. Don't punish resellers for that which is beyond their control. Let's face it, Apple just is not what it used to be.
At the end of the day realize that people working in stores or on phones are humans. Some times they have a bad day and that frustration shows. Not one of you can tell me that you have never let your personal problems show in public situations... all I have to do is read the thread to see that. 
I would make the suggestion that you spend less time writing and complaining about the products or the places where you have purchased them and MORE time enjoying them. 
Miss. Chiquita


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

g4manwithipod said:


> So...let me get this straight: I buy a mac (litre of gas), and if i want accessories (mars bars) along with it, i should be prepared to spend up to 50% than at any other store - simply because they have it in stock?!?!


No, I said nothing of the kind. What I did say is that this is the gas station/convenience store model that you support every time you buy a Snickers along with your gas, and you don't complain about it -- and you probably spend hundreds over the course of a year. (You're the one who brought up the oil company scenario)

IF a store has what you want in stock, you can make a choice whether to buy it for 5% or 10% or 20% extra, or take your time to search out, drive, park and buy at a lower price. Or go online, pay shipping, wait for it to arrive and net out at a lower price (maybe). Its up to you. But the OP was complaining about a $59 item that is $59 everywhere in town EXCEPT at the Apple Store where it is $49. 

Apple subsidizes the Apple Store, and their pricing is goofy anyway - some thing are high, some are low with no apparent reason. This is one product that is low. So you can choose: The one that is here on the shelf for $10 more, or travel and shop elsewhere. (99 percent of the country doesn't have a choice to drive down the road to an Apple Store. And if I were in T.O. my time for even a 40 minute round trip is worth much more than $10)

But my point is: A business is entitled to charge whatever markup they like; most settle on a markup that is in line with their competition, and what the buyers are willing to pay. For an independent Apple dealer this typically means charging a 15% margin instead of a 10% on third party gear (as an exampe. Yes it varies). Or in other words, $115 instead of $110 on an item that costs $100 wholesale. So while you see a reduction of $5.00 on an item, the dealer is seeing a reduction of 33% in their earnings. 

Don't call down a business because there is a variation in price on an individual item. As amply stated earlier, the store in question has dozens and hundreds of 3rd party products cheaper than the Apple Store. 

Posters have highlighted 2 items that are higher. Fine. You can always find a given article cheaper, somewhere, if you look hard enough.
Another poster was ticked that the store wouldn't match price with vaporware competitors, until they were shown a competitor who actually had the product available, when they did offer to match. What's wrong with that? Well apparently, even after providing value-added service, the store wasn't quick enough to offer to price match for the customer, so they walked and bought it for the same price elsewhere.


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## g4manwithipod (Feb 5, 2006)

CanadaRAM said:


> No, I said nothing of the kind. What I did say is that this is the gas station/convenience store model that you support every time you buy a Snickers along with your gas, and you don't complain about it -- and you probably spend hundreds over the course of a year. (You're the one who brought up the oil company scenario)
> 
> IF a store has what you want in stock, you can make a choice whether to buy it for 5% or 10% or 20% extra, or take your time to search out, drive, park and buy at a lower price. Or go online, pay shipping, wait for it to arrive and net out at a lower price (maybe). Its up to you. But the OP was complaining about a $59 item that is $59 everywhere in town EXCEPT at the Apple Store where it is $49.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I agree with you. Sometimes spending the time and gas to save 5-10$ isn't worth the bother, and i have no problem supporting the independent. What i take issue with is the idea that customers should pity resellers who make little $ on individual products. As far as i am concerned, if a reseller is given the opportunity to pricematch on a regualarly stocked item at another mac store, then they should pricematch. Most do. Also, i can't accept that some resellers don't accept refunds/exchanges under any circumstances (unless it's opened software). The argument that the change would open the floodgates to returns that would eat up the resellers profits shows a lack of faith in the resellers base of customers. Are we all bloodthirsty morons who want to see resellers go under so that there isn't ANY competition to hold FS or any other reseller in check? FS, Staples, BB and the like were once small retailers (FS started out in Burnaby, B.C.) and they seem to be doing well enough. Liberal return policies are usually (not in ALL cases) reciprocated with good faith on the part of the consumer. Sure, you probably will get the occaisional nut bar who will use a computer for his video project and then try to return it for a full refund - but realistically, how often does that sort of thing really happen? And, even if it did, would the reseller go bankrupt for selling 15% markdown for a product returned 1 out of every 50-100 computers sold?
I acknowledge that running a business and keeping it competitive is a challenge. In an ideal world customers reciprocate the effort expressed in that challenge with good faith (loyalty, reason) in all cases. This is not an ideal world, but resellers shouldn't paint customers with the same brush because they have had a few nutbars come their way. By the same token, i want to know that a reseller has made every reasonable effort to be cometitive and fair in pricing/service. Respect is a two way street...yes?


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## Gravman (Dec 22, 2002)

*Dudez!*

Hey - Let's just think of a few things here:

1. Capitalism. It's what makes the Western world so powerful. Everyone has the RIGHT to sell Whatever to Whomever for Whatever price they want.

2. Caveat Emptor. If you haven't done your homework - go back to High School and take Consumer Ed again!

3. Competition is good - It helps balance the market and only makes it better for the consumer. Natural Selection (Great guy that Charles Darwin fella) will prevail and the bad retailers will have to change practices or eventually die.

4. Consider the $10.00 - I wonder how much of that was a complaint versus a way to generate negative feedback/hurt a retailer because people being people will want to contribute to the conversation (I mean, look at me - a dumb schmuck posting here about this lame topic)?

5. How much is your time worth? By taking the 15 minutes to skim the postings and reply - I've already lost more than $10.00 in my own personal worth - Imagine what the price of that accessory would be if people DIDN'T pay the $10.00 more. The retailer would have to lower prices to move it out the door as the aging inventory would then become a liability.

I FULLY support the right of retailers everywhere to charge the prices they do. It's what gives us selection and market differentiation.

Ok - That's wayyy more than $10.00 worth of response....

Take that advice/feedback and cash it in - It may be worth more to you than the $10.00.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

Buyer beware even at the Big Boxes
(To further support arguments here on this thread)

Best Buy accused of Xbox 360 baiting tactic



> Best Buy's Sunday ad offered the Xbox 360 for $299 dollars, but a sign was posted at the store on Tuesday as a "correction notice" to inform customers that they could only buy package deals starting at $569.93.


_Best Buy admits Xbox 360 bundling a mistake_



> "We will be selling our units in packages," the memo said. *"Each store should hold back three to four units of each model for those customers who put up an argument about being able to only buy the unit. Everything else will be sold in bundles.* This keeps us in alignment with everyone's expectations."
> Sales managers, the memo continued, would be in charge of the 360 launch and stores should use the *"very best" sales people* for the launch. *It said that stores' future allocations depended on attachment sales "so you need to get it right or you will pay for it in December when new allocations of product are distributed"*. Best Buy was advertising a nine AM opening time on the 22nd and stores had to stick to that time. Best Buy had such low quantities that it needed to be careful with the advertising. The memo said that if stores opened early and sold all their units before that time, it could be in trouble for false advertising.
> Sales people were told to sell up around the Xbox 360 using the *"halo effect"*. Customers wanting 360s would also need HD TVs, and surround systems. It concluded: "Folks, it's like milk and cookies"


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

g4manwithipod said:


> As far as i am concerned, if a reseller is given the opportunity to pricematch on a regualarly stocked item at another mac store, then they should pricematch.


Why? Just to make you happy? Couldn't you be just as happy going to that other Mac store? Or would you just rather screw the local guy out of a few extra dollars because you don't want to waste time and gas driving across town.



g4manwithipod said:


> Also, i can't accept that some resellers don't accept refunds/exchanges under any circumstances (unless it's opened software).


If you don't like the stores policies, don't shop there. Just don't be an ass about it and start criticizing the store. Honest Eds has a "No Returns" policy. Should we start slamming him?



g4manwithipod said:


> Are we all bloodthirsty morons who want to see resellers go under so that there isn't ANY competition to hold FS or any other reseller in check?


Some customer's are.



g4manwithipod said:


> FS, Staples, BB and the like were once small retailers (FS started out in Burnaby, B.C.) and they seem to be doing well enough.


Future Shop, Best Buy, and Staples were NEVER small retailers. They started as a big box store in high traffice areas. Stores like CPUsed, CSC, and Carbon Computing started as holes in the wall serving a few people in a corner of a neighbourhood. There is no way you can compare the Big Box to Local Guy.



g4manwithipod said:


> Liberal return policies are usually (not in ALL cases) reciprocated with good faith on the part of the consumer.


It's sad that consumers need to look at the return policy to determine if the company deserves his or her business.



g4manwithipod said:


> Sure, you probably will get the occaisional nut bar who will use a computer for his video project and then try to return it for a full refund - but realistically, how often does that sort of thing really happen? And, even if it did, would the reseller go bankrupt for selling 15% markdown for a product returned 1 out of every 50-100 computers sold?


Businesses are in the business of business. They are not in the business of charity or sympathy or short-term rentals for free. Buying pens and staples is a cost of doing business. Losing money on returns because customers can't figure out what they want first time around should not be a cost of business. The company shouldn't have to pay for customer indecision. Customers should.



g4manwithipod said:


> I want to know that a reseller has made every reasonable effort to be cometitive and fair in pricing/service. Respect is a two way street...yes?


It's not the business' responsibility to do the price shopping for the customer. If you are too lazy or too busy to shop around, then you have to live with the realization that Company A may be more expensive than Company B.


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