# Home Theatre Advice



## moonsocket (Apr 1, 2002)

Hi All

Need advice on these 2 systems:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10072857&logon=&langid=EN

or

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10071865&catid=

Any thoughts would be great.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Old (5-year + outdated) experience: ignore the watts and, with those names, you get what you pay for. They were both good value for their price range at the time. An independently powered sub-woofer makes (made?) a huge difference. Is that a difference in the systems?

Think about how much you'll really use it at a significant (not necessarily painful or neighbour-enraging) volume versus your budget. Is the difference worth it or just for a couple hours per month?

All-in-one systems are great deals, and my next one will be one. But, when I was pickier about sound, I found PSB to be a superior $/quality value. Energy and Paradigm (also Canadian brands) were also good, combined with a nice receiver. Sony speakers seemed to under-perform for their price at the lower end.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

My first and only theatre speakers are PSB. Even the guy from Yamaha recommended them over their comperable models. Absolutely the best performance:value ratio on the market. I got these speakers from the Sony Store ages ago in conjuction with a Sony non-AC3 receiver (that's how long ago) and have since changed to a Yamaha 6.1 system. The PSBs have been absolutely stellar throughout.

I haven't reviewed the above systems but wanted to weigh in since PSB was mentioned in the follow-up post.


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## Rampant AV (Aug 2, 2005)

I wouldn't buy an all-in-one system. Depending on your budget, buy the best you can afford for each component from the best manufacturer. I stay away from Sony for consumer products. Pioneer and Harman Kardon make great receivers. I haven't used a cd player in years so I couldn't suggest anything there. As for speakers, I agree that PSB are good, Bose are great if you can afford them and dB are good as well.

My suggestion is take a cd with your favourite tunes to the store and listen to various systems and see what you like best.


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## moonsocket (Apr 1, 2002)

Thanks for the replies.

I suppose going with the Yamaha makes sense as you can add more components? Id like to be able to plug the computer into the system as well as an iPod. We also want it to be our dvd system. We do have a dvd player but its getting on the old side.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

I wouldn't worry too much about the DVD player. Great ones can be had for cheap these days. I purchased a Philips that plays DivX and most other formats for $60.

Get the system you think will most complete your audio needs. Other components can be added later and quite cheaply in most cases.

I decided to go with the Logitech Z-5500's for my system despite them being computer speakers, they can do much more. Because of the Price and the connectivity. Works wonderfully. Mind you, they list for $600 and I got them for $250. 

http://www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/cat_sku.asp?CatIds=88,93,420,421&webid=615065&affixedcode=WW

They're on for $350 right now at Staples.. but you could price match them with Futureshop.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## moonsocket (Apr 1, 2002)

HowEver said:


> You might appreciate seeing the information on this site/forum before making a home theatre purchase:
> 
> http://www.digitalhome.ca/



HowEver, thats exactly what Ive been looking for. thanks so much.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

Just from quickly looking at the systems, and also depending on your budget, size of room, lifestyle etc, etc. I would go for the Yamaha system.

For what it's worth, I have an old Yamaha (Pro Logic  )receiver that works as good as the day I bought it and is showing no signs of quitting. Also my computer speakers are also Yamaha and are awesome!! I'll never get rid of them.

When I mentioned lifestyle, do you have kids that are going to wreck your stuff? Then you might be better off getting a unit like this instead of a much more expensive unit. Just a thought.


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## arminia (Jan 27, 2005)

Rampant AV said:


> Bose are great if you can afford them


Is this a joke? Bose are overpriced crap. Several Canadian speakers available which are cheaper and much better quality.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

arminia said:


> Is this a joke? Bose are overpriced crap. Several Canadian speakers available which are cheaper and much better quality.


One person's opinion. 

I have had Bose systems in three vehicles and have a Bose Wave radio. Although pricey, they deliver excellent sound. Preference is a funny thing. Just because you don't think something is best, does not necessarily mean you are correct. They are anything but crap in many people's opinion.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Bose are over priced pleasant sounding and not at all accurate.
The somebody that pays for all that advertising they do is the consumer.
Canadian speakers are world class in every respect and far better value.

Have you ever been in an anechoic chamber Sinc.??

Then don't try to offer advice on something you know nothing about.
People in the audio industry diss Bose regularly because they KNOW better.

There is a world of difference between opinion and informed opinion

Personally for value I like the Pioneer all in ones but look at the reviews as things change. There are some surprisingly good sounding bundles out there but look at the mags to see which are the hidden audio gems.

Bundles are best value and if you want a top picture quality OPPO is unbeatable for the DVD player.

I would not recommend mixing and matching components for the average home theatre buyer.

Digitalhome is terrific


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Have you ever been in an anechoic chamber Sinc.??
> 
> Then don't try to offer advice on something you know nothing about.
> People in the audio industry diss Bose regularly because they KNOW better.


Ah yes, the know it all attitude again.

I repeat, Bose are considered fine speakers by many of us who own them and that is our opinion. Just because I don't agree with your opinion does not give me the right to tell you what to do, like you seem to do to me by telling me not to give advice.

I have news for you. There are people out there who swear by Bose. So, likewise don't be giving me your opinionated advice on choice. That domain still belongs to me.


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## agent4321 (Jun 25, 2004)

I thought I would throw in my 2 cents since I work with this HT stuff everyday. I would stay away from an all-in-one since upgrading and adding on components can be difficult. I'm looking to upgrade my HT audio system and I'm leaning towards a Denon they run from 400-700 bucks for a really nice 7.1 channel receiver. Also a lot of them are iPod & XM radio ready.

Here's a few I've been eyeing


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

MacDoc said:


> Bose are over priced pleasant sounding and not at all accurate.
> The somebody that pays for all that advertising they do is the consumer.
> Canadian speakers are world class in every respect and far better value.
> 
> ...


"What is sound quality to you?"

If you appreciate quality then Bose is not over priced. And who are you to say that they are not accurate? Bose was the only manufacturer in the world that realized that speakers produced an unnatural sound. The difference between Bose and the "others" is that Bose systems create life like, natural sounds, whereas the "others" create dynamic sound. My Bose Lifestyle 48 Series III system in my opinion sounds better then my dad's Bang and Olufson. Does that make the Bang and Olufson crap? No!

Bose, Bang and Olufsen, Denon, Paradigm and Dynaudio are some of the MOST respected names in the audio industry. I happen to know many audiophiles who actually respect Bose because they have innovated more then any one in the audio industry. 

And please never ever mention Pioneer if we are discussing high end audio equipment. Thank you.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

First lets say right off the top that if you're happy with your Bose speakers stop reading now and enjoy what you have. Ignorance is bliss and really what do I care if you're happy with what you have...I don't listen to your system and so really this doesn't apply to current happy Bose owners. What we do need to do however is make sure that new people have all the facts going in and if they end up choosing Bose speakers then great but at least they went in with some prior knowledge.

With that in mind, Bose is first and foremost a marketing company. Sure they do a lot of research and some of that does make it was down to their consumer products but most of their products are honestly very poorly made and way over priced for what you're buying. Bose can and does make good products (their headphones for pilots are supposed to some of the best) but by and large you and I will never get to hear them. Lets take their lifestyle system as an example. The tiny little cube speakers simply can not reproduce the low base required to cross over properly to their bass modual (note they can't call this a subwoofer b/c it doesn't produce sub bass freq's). The result is that there's a hole in the response between where the cubes stop and the bass modual starts. Add to that the lack of extended range at the top from the tweeters and you end up with rather crude sound. Now this isn't just a Bose problem as many if not most tiny little speakers suffer from the same problems...its simple physics so don't feel this is an attack on Bose its just a fact of life from these types of systems. Where the problem comes in is when Bose charges $$$ and markets them with hyperbole that they're near perfect. Interestingly enough Bose has tried to sue magazine's that have tried to publish the frequency response plots for these speakers that clearly illustrate the glaring holes. Bose has a huge legal team that's always attacking reviews and other companies that try to use well established designs that they feel come too close to a product they produce. More often then not these deigns are for idea's that have been around for decades and were not bose inventions (Bandpass subwoofers for example). This overly aggressive legal tendency combined with laughable marketing for over priced gear results in a lot of people getting very worked up about them and endless threads have been created between those that like Bose and those that do not. Personally working in the industry I just try to educate as many as I can so people know the facts going in. If they still choose Bose so be it but at least they know they're basically paying for the name and not much else as the mark up on Bose products is very very high so dealers love to push their product. Also note that in many big box stores Bose demands that their product be set up in its own room so that you can't easily compare them to other speakers...and honestly any speaker is going to sound better in a small room then an open noisy showroom floor.

So what do you do if you want Bose like speakers but want some alternatives? After all there's little point in me telling you to stay away from Bose if I can't at least point out some better alternatives. 

For some home grown alternatives check out..

Energy Act series.
Energy produced the very highly regarded Take 5 and Encore lines prior to introducing the Act line. If you happen to come across the Takes or Encores they're often well marked down and are very good choices.

PSB Alpha 
Another Canadian company with a solid reputation. PSB's alpha's aren't likely to be as easy to find as the Energy or Paradigm products but are worthy of a listen if there's a dealer local.

Paradigm Cinema Series 
Paradigm's likely going to be the easiest brand to find locally and like the other big Canadian speaker makers offers lots of bang for the buck. I might suggest if you can step up in speaker size Paradigms Atom speaker is pretty small but sounds fantastic for a $200 speaker set.

There's also a host of other very well respected companies producing Bose like packages that you may want to listen to first. My suggestion to anyone looking to buy speakers is always take a few of your favorite CD's and go listen to them in a store that has proper listening rooms set up and make an informed choice.

If anyone has any specific questions please drop me a line. I'm a custom home theater installer and really just enjoy sharing information and talking with people that enjoy music and movies.


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

Andrew Pratt said:


> First lets say right off the top that if you're happy with your Bose speakers stop reading now and enjoy what you have. Ignorance is bliss and really what do I care if you're happy with what you have...I don't listen to your system and so really this doesn't apply to current happy Bose owners. What we do need to do however is make sure that new people have all the facts going in and if they end up choosing Bose speakers then great but at least they went in with some prior knowledge.
> 
> With that in mind, Bose is first and foremost a marketing company. Sure they do a lot of research and some of that does make it was down to their consumer products but most of their products are honestly very poorly made and way over priced for what you're buying. Bose can and does make good products (their headphones for pilots are supposed to some of the best) but by and large you and I will never get to hear them. Lets take their lifestyle system as an example. The tiny little cube speakers simply can not reproduce the low base required to cross over properly to their bass modual (note they can't call this a subwoofer b/c it doesn't produce sub bass freq's). The result is that there's a hole in the response between where the cubes stop and the bass modual starts. Add to that the lack of extended range at the top from the tweeters and you end up with rather crude sound. Now this isn't just a Bose problem as many if not most tiny little speakers suffer from the same problems...its simple physics so don't feel this is an attack on Bose its just a fact of life from these types of systems. Where the problem comes in is when Bose charges $$$ and markets them with hyperbole that they're near perfect. Interestingly enough Bose has tried to sue magazine's that have tried to publish the frequency response plots for these speakers that clearly illustrate the glaring holes. Bose has a huge legal team that's always attacking reviews and other companies that try to use well established designs that they feel come too close to a product they produce. More often then not these deigns are for idea's that have been around for decades and were not bose inventions (Bandpass subwoofers for example). This overly aggressive legal tendency combined with laughable marketing for over priced gear results in a lot of people getting very worked up about them and endless threads have been created between those that like Bose and those that do not. Personally working in the industry I just try to educate as many as I can so people know the facts going in. If they still choose Bose so be it but at least they know they're basically paying for the name and not much else as the mark up on Bose products is very very high so dealers love to push their product. Also note that in many big box stores Bose demands that their product be set up in its own room so that you can't easily compare them to other speakers...and honestly any speaker is going to sound better in a small room then an open noisy showroom floor.
> 
> ...


So are you suggesting that the Bose 901's that I convinced my friend to purchase after many lengthy side by side comparisons of other brands for his Denon is simply just an overpriced, low quality, piece of equipment? If so then may I suggest you do your self a favor and think before you type/speak. The 901's are one of the BEST speakers on the market. Also the Lifestyle 48 series III is one of the most advanced systems on the market. If everything is setup and calibrated correctly then the system will NOT perform to how you suggest it performs. Read and do some research about that system then hopefully it can help you produce more informed facts to your unfortunate customers. If you don't care about what people use then who are you to start bashing a company that you obviously know nothing about? I love it when people say Bose is a marketing company, it makes me laugh:lmao: Let me ask you something? What do you think Apple is? Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world? Why because of marketing. They are getting the brand name out there. Does that mean its crap? Certainly NOT. You sir are the one that has ignorance.:clap:


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I have owned Bose systems in many of my vehicles and have their wave radio in my den.

I am completely satisfied with each and every one of them and the sound quality is excellent.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

> So are you suggesting that the Bose 901's that I convinced my friend to purchase after many lengthy side by side comparisons of other brands for his Denon is simply just an overpriced, low quality, piece of equipment?


No the 901's are a different design altogether then the Lifestyle systems. I don't care for their sound but I wouldn't call them junk. 



> Also the Lifestyle 48 series III is one of the most advanced systems on the market.


In what way?



> If everything is setup and calibrated correctly then the system will NOT perform to how you suggest it performs. Read and do some research about that system then hopefully it can help you produce more informed facts to your unfortunate customers.


And you know this because you've tested the response or you're just happy with the sound you get? Bose's products are almost always reviewed in the trade magazines without frequency response plots since they're never favorable and if they are shown Bose's lawyers will come knocking (its happened often enough before). Sound and Vision did produce this plot for the AM-15 system which illustrates the problem of matching tiny speakers to sub's...and again its not just Bose that has this issue.










> If you don't care about what people use then who are you to start bashing a company that you obviously know nothing about?


Actually I do care...if I didn't I wouldn't have gotten into the industry or supported thousands of users on the various home theater boards that I moderate on or run. 



> I love it when people say Bose is a marketing company, it makes me laugh Let me ask you something? What do you think Apple is? Apple is one of the most successful companies in the world?


Why does success have to equal quality? One could argue that Microsoft must be better then Apple since they're clearly the larger company and sell many more copies of their OS. Macdonalds has a huge marketing arm and I doubt anyone would confuse them with quality. Selling tons of product is the aim of most companies and Bose is very good at doing that but lets not confuse the issue.

As for the car audio Bose makes a decent product and their wave radio is a nice enough sounding radio. 

Honestly if you auditioned various speaker systems and picked the one you thought sounded the best then you did everything right. All I ask is that people audition and make that choice themselves and not just buy something because of the name on it. Bose can and does make decent gear...it just tends to be more expensive then the alternatives from less marketed products.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> So are you suggesting that the Bose 901's that I convinced my friend to purchase after many lengthy side by side comparisons of other brands for his Denon is simply just an overpriced,


Yes and he is correct.

Over priced compared to what else is out there.

The marketing funds they lavish out comes from you the consumer. They are over priced and over hyped.

Quality build is different from quality sound. I cannot comment on Bose's build quality.

This is a good summary of a situation that has been around for decades.



> Bose has an interesting place in the audio market. If you google on Bose, you'll find a quite a few web sites devoted specifically to bashing everything made by Bose. A bit of digging should reveal that nearly ALL audiophiles hate Bose with a passion. Yet Bose also does a good job at pleasing most listeners.
> 
> You see, their products, while heavily and brilliantly marketed, are significantly more expensive than alternatives offering equal fidelity. That isn’t to say that many people find that Bose speakers sound good. However, they tend to color the sound in only an initially pleasing manner. For many consumers, this is good enough and they appreciate the convenient form factor of Bose products. However, if you’re really in to audio, you’ll quickly notice flaws. Discoloration and outright lack of response in some spectra make Bose completely unsuitable as monitors for audio production.
> 
> If you are happy with the sound… then read no further. You risk training yourself to psycho-acoustically fixate on the Bose flaws.


tanstaafl.


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## Ants (May 6, 2003)

I am not going to get into a debate on Bose, Nakamichi, B&O or any other perceived "high end" systems. At the end of the day, if you like what you hear and can justify the costs, then you buy it. What works and feels right for you, may not be right for someone else. 

The only advice I can offer is to forget all the charts, specs and all that fancy wording, just trust your ears. If you feel involved in what your listening/viewing - be it movies or music and if the equipment your interested in fits your price point, then go for it. 

Unfortunately, getting real advice and proper set up/listening environment from big box stores who offer these set ups is impossible. If possible, visit a reputable hi fi store. There are a few still remaining. Obviously, this type of retail store usually offers separate components, hence the costs are slightly more but most will take back your old gear as a trade in when you feel compelled to upgrade. Sometimes you can also find good deals on demos or stuff on consignment. 

You can get great value from the likes of NAD, Arcam, which I feel are one step above Denon, Pioneer and Yamaha type offerings but that's just my opinion. I like the Paradigm line of speakers, they are affordable, especially the Atom series.

If your budget allows, you can also consider these higher end "all in one" units like the The Classik Movie from Linn or Nad's NAD L73. Of course, you'll have to also buy speakers to go along. I have heard and seen the Linn and it's well above average. Linn make outstanding high quality audio components. Mind you, there're not cheap but can sometimes be found pre-loved for under $2000.

As for a HTIB, I was out with a buddy yesterday and he purchased a Panasonic SC PT750 home theater system to go along with his spanking new 42" Vierra plasma. We set it up and it sounded fine. Not mind blowing or anywhere near what I perceive to be a high end home theatre system but this set up fits his needs and budget. One cool thing about this home theatre kit is the wireless rear speakers, convenient for folks who do not want cables running to and from the receiver or have no interest in snaking cables through the walls.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

I don't disagree with anyone's comments but in my experience, when we talk about a Bose system for home theatre, most people that buy a system for just that: home theatre. Not for accurate music reproduction. 
I also agree wth SINC, the Bose wave system radio does sound excellent for what it is.
I don't need a wave generator or a graph to validate what I might or might not like. 
Our ears are not perfect. My ears have been subjected to concert level guitar, crashing cymbals and bass for years and I can admit that I may have deafness creeping into my soon to be 50 years, though I won't admit it. 
Right now, I hear very well and can discern between garbage and accurate. 
For example, I can hear the of distortion in my iPod, XX) but that's me. My son's older iRiver sounds better.

So, the debate can rage on but it's all about what we hear ourselves, not what someone tells me I should hear.


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

ErnstNL said:


> I don't disagree with anyone's comments but in my experience, when we talk about a Bose system for home theatre, most people that buy a system for just that: home theatre. Not for accurate music reproduction.
> I also agree wth SINC, the Bose wave system radio does sound excellent for what it is.
> I don't need a wave generator or a graph to validate what I might or might not like.
> Our ears are not perfect. My ears have been subjected to concert level guitar, crashing cymbals and bass for years and I can admit that I may have deafness creeping into my soon to be 50 years, though I won't admit it.
> ...


Wow! That's the best answer I have ever heard! And no I am NOT trying to be sarcastic. It doesn't matter what’s on the charts or papers its what you hear. Case closed.

Also Andrew you being a home theatre installation person you should know right off the top of your head what makes The Bose Lifestyle 48 Series III one of the most advanced systems on the market. So quick to bash a company yet you don’t even know one of the many Bose only features that makes it the most advanced. 



Andrew Pratt said:


> No the 901's are a different design altogether then the Lifestyle systems. I don't care for their sound but I wouldn't call them junk.


Well from what you and others seem to imply about Bose in general, and obviously when you make a general statement you are talking about all of their products. No you change your mind?


Andrew Pratt said:


> And you know this because you've tested the response or you're just happy with the sound you get? Bose's products are almost always reviewed in the trade magazines without frequency response plots since they're never favorable and if they are shown Bose's lawyers will come knocking (its happened often enough before). Sound and Vision did produce this plot for the AM-15 system which illustrates the problem of matching tiny speakers to sub's...and again its not just Bose that has this issue.


Well isn't the sound in which you hear that you feel is the best is what matters? If it doesn't for you then I would hate to imagine what system you have or would "recommend" to your customers. Also that little diagram in which you have placed in this thread doesn't mean anything because it doesn't even display the statistics for a Bose system. So your statement is pretty much invalid.


Andrew Pratt said:


> Why does success have to equal quality?


I was going to ask you the same question.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

GenA You are trying desperately to justify YOUR decision using Bose's techno-babble against the weight of high end audiophiles.

It's similar to a casual diner's opinion against that of a sommelier.

The sommelier knows which relatively inexpensive wines are excellent value and why a top wine tastes the way it does.
He understands, has the experience and is not moved by "marketing and hype".

Many people do not enjoy high end audio systems just as many people including myself have no taste for wines tho when Canada's own Master sommelier drops a free bottle by ( he's a client ) - it's always enjoyable.

There was a lot of "mystique" around loudspeaker design and construction until Dr. Floyd Toole of the NRC helped the Canadian loudspeaker industry offer products equal to or better than any others in the world, for less money.

I was deeply involved in the industry as it emerged. Incredible what it has become.

Bose always was an admirable marketing company with vanilla speakers.

Sort of Readers Digest sound versus Michael Ondaatje.

For those who care and understand - there is NO comparison.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> For those who care and understand - there is NO comparison.


Speaking of understanding, I will stack up my Bose Wave radio against any other brand that takes up the same amount of space on my counter top. I have challenged many to this test and so far, no one has been able to respond with anything that even comes close to matching the sound. There is no comparison.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Cambridge SoundWorks you would lose.

Cheaper, better sound- 

Head to head for a number of them

Geek.com Consumer Electronics Review: Table Radio Showdown: Kloss Model One, CSW Model 88, Bose Wave

'course some people LIKE plonk...even over priced plonk.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

> Also that little diagram in which you have placed in this thread doesn't mean anything because it doesn't even display the statistics for a Bose system.


Actually that is the response plot from the AM-15 from the Sound and Vision review. One of the very few magazines ever to publish a response plot of a Bose product.

We're obviously not going to agree here and as I've said before if you're happy great! My point is only that for what Bose charges there are typically cheaper and in most audiophiles opinion's better sounding solutions.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Cambridge SoundWorks you would lose.
> 
> 
> 
> 'course some people LIKE plonk...even over priced plonk.












A single glance shows that unit is likely 50% bigger than the Wave. No contest.


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

Oh and also with regards to those who say that its impossible to compare Bose products... Well I found the "Our commitment to you" note that comes with any Bose product that you buy and on the very last paragraph it states "When you purchase any product from Bose, we encourage you to compare it, as we do, to competitive products for MUSICAL ACCURACY. (Notice how I put the caps on :clap: ) We believe that this process will enhance your appreciation of the product you select."



Andrew Pratt said:


> Actually that is the response plot from the AM-15 from the Sound and Vision review. One of the very few magazines ever to publish a response plot of a Bose product.


Then who are you to say that Bose systems are not accurate?



MacDoc said:


> GenA You are trying desperately to justify YOUR decision using Bose's techno-babble against the weight of high end audiophiles.
> 
> It's similar to a casual diner's opinion against that of a sommelier.
> 
> ...


MacDoc your not even an audiophile nor are you an expert so may I suggest you can your attitude and put it else where. I can almost guarantee that you haven't even owned a Bose. Its obvious you believe everything you see on the internet, your probably one of those people who sit in those wanna be expert forums detesting ever owning a Bose yet you haven't even owned one. Go do some research about the 901 and get back to me about who made the worlds best sounding and the most advanced speaker. Also MacDoc if you have been paying attention instead of being caught up in your arrogance you would see that I am actually friends with many high end audiophiles who actually respect Bose. So smart yet soo stupid, run along now.

Its just like those arguments of Apple vs. Microsoft. No one will ever win, yet there are those few wannabes who will try to prove a point they cant make.

Nice Bose Wave radio SINC! I bought my parents one for their 25th anniversary! Its an amazing sounding unit! I cant believe that something soo small can sound soo good!


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## Ants (May 6, 2003)

genuineadvantage said:


> Go do some research about the 901 and get back to me about who made the worlds best sounding and the most advanced speaker.


I did a quick search, the limited results are mixed, some people like em, others think they are overpriced.

However, is you spend any time on audiophile forums like Audiogon, Pink Fish, you will notice very little conversation on Bose, they are not considered as true audiophile gear. I've been "upgrading" my hifi for over 20 years and have never seen a Bose system in any of the stores I shop at. Mainly because I tend to like the "british" sound/approach to hifi and not what I refer to the "american" sound.

Funny this is that Bose owners strike me as being quite similar to the feelings of many high end audio owners like myself about their precious gear. I'm a Naim Audio fanboy and you would be hard pressed to convince me that anything else could sound better. 

Personally, I could not justify spending $2k on any Bose speakers. At this price point, there are much better alternatives but that's just my opinion.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Ants (May 6, 2003)

HowEver said:


> Are we there yet?


Just a few more upgrades and I'll be approaching nirvana....but that could take another 20 years!


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

Ants said:


> I did a quick search, the limited results are mixed, some people like em, others think they are overpriced.
> 
> However, is you spend any time on audiophile forums like Audiogon, Pink Fish, you will notice very little conversation on Bose, they are not considered as true audiophile gear. I've been "upgrading" my hifi for over 20 years and have never seen a Bose system in any of the stores I shop at. Mainly because I tend to like the "british" sound/approach to hifi and not what I refer to the "american" sound.
> 
> ...


Well its like I have mentioned before your ears are what determine what sounds the best. I am not trying to force anyone to a particular brand. I like American and european sound  I have great respect for companies such as Denon, Bang and Olufsen, Mark Levinson, just to name a few but for whatever reason my ears just liked the Bose the best. My dad on the other hand likes his Bang and Olufsen better. There should be no reason for someone to disrespect you because you have chosen a particular brand. Its still a high end audio brand so what’s the problem?

And you have a Naim  Kick a** what system do you have? Details!



HowEver said:


> Are we there yet?





Ants said:


> Just a few more upgrades and I'll be approaching nirvana....but that could take another 20 years!


:lmao: I love this place!


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## Ants (May 6, 2003)

genuineadvantage said:


> And you have a Naim  Kick a** what system do you have? Details!


http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/39735-audiophiles-gear-what-you-got.html#post387476


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

Ants said:


> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/39735-audiophiles-gear-what-you-got.html#post387476


Nice!

Oh just one *last* thing everyone... Bose actually does make audiophile quality equipment. 

Just check out the sound system for the Infiniti:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/04/12/003831.html

Also don't start bashing the company until you have experienced their professional line  

Case closed.


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

Ants said:


> http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/39735-audiophiles-gear-what-you-got.html#post387476



Ants, you are my audio inspiration :clap: I've always wanted a Linn LP 12 (or a Planar 3). I'm thankful just to have Linn speakers and a Creek amp. 

Back when I had more discretionary income (i.e. single), I can remember trying to decide between a Naim Nait, a Linn, and the Creek that I currently have. That process made buying a computer a snap. It did also increase my appreciation for audio equipment that reproduced music the way it would sound live and in particular, British audio equipment.


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## Ants (May 6, 2003)

Kami said:


> Ants, you are my audio inspiration :clap: I've always wanted a Linn LP 12 (or a Planar 3). I'm thankful just to have Linn speakers and a Creek amp.
> 
> Back when I had more discretionary income (i.e. single), I can remember trying to decide between a Naim Nait, a Linn, and the Creek that I currently have. That process made buying a computer a snap. It did also increase my appreciation for audio equipment that reproduced music the way it would sound live and in particular, British audio equipment.


hey kami,

There something about the Brits/Scots and the way they approach the reproduction of music that just floats my boat!

This level of appreciation has taken a good part of 20 years to put together and all of it was done by trading in and replacing components with more used gear. I could not afford any of this stuff new, especially now. I did have the power supplies and amps recapped many years ago but just like your Creek, some higher end components stand the test of time and do not fail, even after 20 years of use, every day use, my system is never turned off.  In certain cases maybe you get what you pay for...

My first entry hifi consisted of a Thorens turntable, a Sudgen intergrated amp and B&W bookshelf speakers. I remember the Naim Nait and Creek line but could not afford it at that time. Eventually, I graduated to a complete Linn set up but once I heard Naim, it did not take long to trade it all in and have never needed to look elsewhere. 

Which Linn speakers are you using with the Creek ? Old school Sara's (my favorite ever speaker from Linn). I once owned a pair of Isobariks but had to downsize the cabinets so I could buy a CD player. 

If your ever considering a Linn, there are many good deals to be had, especially the Son of Sondek, the Axis.

Nice to know I am not alone...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

What's surprised me about this thread is that there is a lot of great advice from Ants, MacDoc, arminia, Andrew Pratt....

Some have taken offence that their beloved Bose is not considered high quality or even close to audiophile quality and insist on trying to defend....
Bose, B&O and a few other brands are basically the the triumph of marketing over quality...

When it comes to table radios, someone decided that "size" was a determining factor when it comes to sound quality....
MacDoc rightly pointed that the Cambridge SoundWorks (CD 740 I hope) would be the best sounding one. Compare in price to Bose and it definitely is a winner. 
For those on a budget, Tivoli would rank up there.
Bose Wave Radio, is a very good product, and quite the exception when it comes to other Bose products. 

genuineadvantage, how do you know that MacDoc is not an audiophile? I'd ventured that he's been around more high-end equipment that I will ever see.

At the risk of being sued by Bose, their speakers suck for what you pay. Muddy with no control, tizzy high end and a midrange that is either absent or all over the place. Yes they are well-know as a company but that does not mean good.


Some of the confusion in this thread, seems based on what an audiophile is. I think that most would say that they want "accurate" music/sound reproduction. That is why many will spend the equivalent of a car on a system.... 
While I could afford a 5.1 system, I listen to movies on a stereo system. The sound is surprisingly 3D. 

While audiophiles may argue about the "best" sound, the bottom line is that we are looking for something free of coloration, as natural sounding as possible and within a certain budget. 
The Naim/Linn gear mentioned by Ants is a real treat to hear. I'm sure that if many could listen to their favourite album over at his house, they would feel that they are discovering the music for the first time. 

I cringed when I read the link about the Bose system in the Infinit - car audio is not high end. The car environment is the antithesis of a proper listening room. It seems that loud passes for quality in cars....What's surprised me about this thread is that there is a lot of great advice from Ants, MacDoc, arminia, Andrew Pratt....

Some have taken offence that their beloved Bose is not considered high quality or even close to audiophile quality and insist on trying to defend....
Bose, B&O and a few other brands are basically the the triumph of marketing over quality...

When it comes to table radios, someone decided that "size" was a determining factor when it comes to sound quality....
MacDoc rightly pointed that the Cambridge SoundWorks CD 740 would be the best sounding one. Compare in price to Bose and it definitely is a winner. 
For those on a budget, Tivoli would rank up there.
Bose Wave Radio, is a very good product, and quite the exception when it comes to other Bose products. 

genuineadvantage, how do you know that MacDoc is not an audiophile? I'd ventured that he's been around more high-end equipment that I will ever see.

At the risk of being sued by Bose, their speakers suck for what you pay. Muddy with no control, tizzy high end and a midrange that is either absent or all over the place. Yes they are well-know as a company but that does not mean good.


Some of the confusion in this thread, seems based on what an audiophile is. I think that most would say that they want "accurate" music/sound reproduction. That is why many will spend the equivalent of a car on a system.... 
While I could afford a 5.1 system, I listen to movies on a stereo system. The sound is surprisingly 3D. 

While audiophiles may argue about the "best" sound, the bottom line is that we are looking for something free of coloration, as natural sounding as possible and within a certain budget. 
The Naim/Linn gear mentioned by Ants is a real treat to hear. I'm sure that if many could listen to their favourite album over at his house, they would feel that they are discovering the music for the first time. 

I cringed when I read the link about the Bose system in the Infinit - car audio is not high end. The car environment is the antithesis of a proper listening room. It seems that loud passes for quality in cars....


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I'd quote you AS, but your post is so repetitive and convoluted it makes no sense.

I did however recognize your style of insulting the opinions of many Bose users without directly identifying them.

Somehow I find that offensive, but given the source, I guess I can live with it.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC, get over it.
Really. If you want me to be clear, it could be summed up by Bose speakers are overhyped pieces of garbage. 
The Bose table radio is good but over priced.
Car audio is not hi-fi.

You had some really good advice in this thread. If you want to continue buying the Bose marketing hype, that's fine. But they are alternative that are more satisfying around...,


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

SINC and AS. 

Both of you please cool it. I suggest you go into you CP preferences and add each other to your ignore lists.


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

ArtistSeries said:


> What's surprised me about this thread is that there is a lot of great advice from Ants, MacDoc, arminia, Andrew Pratt....
> 
> Some have taken offence that their beloved Bose is not considered high quality or even close to audiophile quality and insist on trying to defend....
> Bose, B&O and a few other brands are basically the the triumph of marketing over quality...
> ...


Are you still typing? Wow you honestly got me there! But hey I guess you must of had me confused with someone who gives a crap. 

Nice to meet you! My name is GenuineAdvantage


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

genuineadvantage said:


> Are you still typing? Wow you honestly got me there! But hey I guess you must of had me confused with someone who gives a crap.


If you are recommending Bose, you obviously don't ...


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## genuineadvantage (Mar 14, 2007)

ArtistSeries said:


> If you are recommending Bose, you obviously don't ...


Don't what? Learn to finish your sentences. 

Speaking of recommendations, I recommend that you do the following:

1) Learn to type properly and stop repeating your self.

2) Go buy your self some high end audio equipment before ever talking to me about high quality audio equipment ever again. ( I do have more then just Bose you know )

3) Fix your inconsiderate and ignorant attitude, it really makes me wonder how you get by in life with no friends.

4) Well there is no 4.

If you need assistance in comprehending anything that you are currently reading on your screen then please don't hesitate to call a help line and get medical attention immediately! Operators are standing buy!

By the way have we met before? My name is Genuine Advantage, just in case you forgot


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

genuineadvantage, I shudder what else you consider high-end after your recommendation of Bose...

You are making quite of few assumptions. I've already described my systems in the past...



> 1) Learn to type properly and stop repeating *your self.*(sic)


That would be yourself not your self, but thanks for the advice.



> 2) Go buy your self some high end audio equipment before ever talking to me about high quality audio equipment ever again. ( I do have more then just Bose you know )


I guess the following does not count: Sugden Masterclass integrated, Sugden A21, Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD, Musical Fidelity A3 CD, Oracle Mk IV, Oracle Alexandria Mk3, Dyaudio Audience 72 SE, Vandersteens 2Ce, older Roksan tuner, cabling by Prisma and Cardas, wall mounted on Target stands (except the speakers).




> 3) Fix your inconsiderate and ignorant attitude, it really makes me wonder how you get by in life with no friends.


If anyone has show an ignorant attitude, it would be you. There is some good advice here and the bottom line is that Bose is not high-end. You may want to justify the recommendations that you made, but MacDoc and all have politely tried to described that Bose sucks. 
Friends? That's right, I'm all alone boohoo...



> Operators are standing* buy!*(sic)


Please learn to type properly.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Bose makes high end, audiophile equipment. 

I have a friend who makes a living in very, very high end audio and has made millions of dollars in consulting. (He's on vacation for about 6 months of the year) He gives large seminars at NAAB. He owns lots of Bose stuff and always speaks very highly of it.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ehMax said:


> Bose makes high end, audiophile equipment.


Then please PM with the model number. I'm curious.

I'm not sure I follow the "makes a lot of money" argument. Fast Food chains makes a lot of money but it's hardly quality. Would that not reflect a huge mark-up on what he sells?


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## Ants (May 6, 2003)

*Why can't we be friends?*

I encountered similar debates with other audiophiles who were ready to fight to the death that their preferred hi end brand name gear was just better than my set up or anyone else's for that matter. There was a time I would defend Naim's honor and challenge one head on but I've come to realize that what I consider to be a suitable listening environment and set up for my tastes, does not work for others (and vice versa).

Some folks are happy with clock radios, others with high end musical reproduction systems. Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that it's more important if your interested in listening to music rather than equipment used. However, I do have some reservations about an entire generation of people who will never hear a record other than in a mp3 file format.

We all hear music in a different manner and capacity and buy the brands we buy due to the emotional attachment. Some, like myself were exposed to "hifi" early on and got the bug. Been upgrading ever since! Other do not have the need or desire to dig deeper.

My motto remains..."If you hear the difference, then you can justify buying it"


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> Then please PM with the model number. I'm curious.
> 
> I'm not sure I follow the "makes a lot of money" argument. Fast Food chains makes a lot of money but it's hardly quality. Would that not reflect a huge mark-up on what he sells?


Lemme spell it out for you. 

He makes a living on selling high-end, audiophile equipment. He's very successful and well regarded in the industry. He likes a lot of Bose products for his own personal audio enjoyment, when he could afford anything. 

I don't know what particular Bose products or models he uses.. but I know he doesn't buy them just because of their marketing.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Ants said:


> I encountered similar debates with other audiophiles who were ready to fight to the death that their preferred hi end brand name gear was just better than my set up or anyone else's for that matter. There was a time I would defend Naim's honor and challenge one head on but I've come to realize that what I consider to be a suitable listening environment and set up for my tastes, does not work for others (and vice versa).


I don't think I'd be putting up a Citizen all in one system, right?
Given the stratosphere that you are talking about (Naim), the difference between systems are often marginal (there is some high priced garbage out there) and preference. The threshold that you are starting at is high.


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## Ants (May 6, 2003)

ArtistSeries said:


> I don't think I'd be putting up a Citizen all in one system, right?
> Given the stratosphere that you are talking about (Naim), the difference between systems are often marginal (there is some high priced garbage out there) and preference. The threshold that you are starting at is high.


My intent in saying this was not to reference my gear as a starting point. I guess I should of added that for some an all in one system (yes, even a Citizen) is all they need. They are happy with no need to look any further. I am not going to walk out of someone's home if their gear isn't up to snuff . Whatever works for you is best for you.


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

Ants said:


> hey kami,
> 
> There something about the Brits/Scots and the way they approach the reproduction of music that just floats my boat!
> 
> ...


We're in the same sound room 

Saras - those are truly some awesome speakers to listen to... and the price tag even 20 years ago was something else (!!). If I could back in time I would save the extra $ to get those Saras. I ended up getting the entry level Linn Index and I'm still enjoying them. 

And speaking of the Axis that is on my list of TTs to locate and buy one day. As an re-entry back into vinyl I have purchased a Dual 510. 

Now that I've gotten the computer buying bug well under control  I am setting my eyes on upgrading the Creek amp and tuner to something in the Naim/NAD/Linn lineup. It'll have to be used but like you said, this equipment stands the test of time quite nicely.


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