# new computer duty?



## Pamela

ok. I'd like to get this straight once and for all.

Do you, or do you NOT have to pay duty when bringing (actually driving with your car with your computer in the trunk from the us to canada) a new imac computer up to canada from the us? (ie. NAFTA?!)

I'd like to hear from people that have actual facts/experience with this if possible (I want to stay away from hearsay).

There's got to be at least one person in this entire community that has experiened or knows for sure about this...

Thank you in advance.


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## RicktheChemist

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## MACSPECTRUM

I would chime in with my personal experiences with Mac computers, computer parts and having read NAFTA regulations regarding import of items form the U.S. into Canada, but don't need the tongue lashing I would most certainly get for my efforts.

C'est la vie. C'est la guerre.


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## RicktheChemist

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## Pamela

well after a bunch of searching on forums this is what I've found..and it sounds like the most legitimate...

"There is no duty on electronics anymore (hasn't been for sometime now, call customs and keep dialing "0" until you speak toan officer, they'll tell you the same thing). The only extra charges you'll get hit for (and there is some variability here) are GST and PST."

Since I'm getting it shipped to just south of the border in blaine and bringing back across myself, I guess all it comes down to is whether I declare it or not...to have to pay the taxes...*grrrr*. Guess it depends if I believe that the Canadians have x-ray machines that scan your trunk for hidden items....lol. That would be a pretty obvious big box.....LOL


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## JohnnyG4

Better check on the warranty. Except for Powerbooks, I didn't think that the warranty was valid outside of the country that the computer was purchased in. 

John


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## Pamela

Does anybody have evidence to back up what johnnyg4 is saying? If I'm using applecare what should it matter?


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## Dr.G.

If my understanding is correct, then JohnnyG4 comment is correct with certain electronic products that were brought in to Canada from the US without paying duty. This only becomes an issue when you have to send something that is covered under warrenty back to the US for repair, but have no way of proving how this item was brought into the country.


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## Pamela

well I just called apple and they said there is no problem and no difference if you buy it in the states and bring it up to canada. Internationally is a different story. They have the same product number here as down there so they don't make the distinction that one was bought through canada or the states. 

I must also say ...lol...that I was very frank, polite, and honest with him and told him that i was not actually buying through them but that I was getting a very good deal through mac warehouse and since I'm a student I just couldn't pass up the deal. His tone obviously changed since I'm not "one of their customers", but he was still nice and tried to actually find a deal for me through them...but he just couldn't beat the deal, so he apologized and said goodbye very nicely.

Very impressed.

So it looks like there is no duty, no problems with warranty, and no US tax. All I have to do is figure out a way to get around the Canadian Tax...which at 14.5% would end up being around $450.  *sigh*
It may not sound like much but it ends up buying me virtual pc.


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## used to be jwoodget

If you try and sneak the computer in through the border and don't declare it, and its discovered, then you can be liable to a significant fine much higher than and in addition to the payable tax or even have the item confiscated. It's a risk, especially as the border crossing as so unpredictable now in terms of the amount of attention an agent may pay you. Are you feeling lucky?

Depending on the State of destination, MacWarehouse will charge different sales taxes (as they will consider the shipping address as the final destination). You don't have much choice (unless you wanna drive to North Dakota...).

In any case, good luck whatever you decide to do but remember that for the sake of several hundred $$, you are foregoing the convenience of having a local shop who made you a sale (and therefore may have some expectation that they could make a future sale) deal with any problems. For sure, MacWarehouse won't give a damn and although AppleCare allows you to go to whichever authorised dealer you like, you'll be just another customer. In your profession, where loss of a days use or some data, etc. costs a lot more than $400, I think its wise to build up a rapport with a local dealer. It may save a future contract.

Just MHO.


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## Pamela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by used to be jwoodget:
*If you try and sneak the computer in through the border and don't declare it, and its discovered, then you can be liable to a significant fine much higher than and in addition to the payable tax or even have the item confiscated. It's a risk, especially as the border crossing as so unpredictable now in terms of the amount of attention an agent may pay you. Are you feeling lucky? .*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still toying with that. I've been screwed with customs so much between me moving up and down there as well as my husband, and all the immigration crap he has gone through..my attitude sure is to try and sneak it by. He drives up every single day to and from work and over 4 months has not been checked ONCE! So you can see that the temptation is there. I just wonder if they have x-ray machines or not?


[/QB]Depending on the State of destination, MacWarehouse will charge different sales taxes (as they will consider the shipping address as the final destination). You don't have much choice (unless you wanna drive to North Dakota...).[/QB]

They only charge tax to like 5 states...and WA isn't one of them.

[/QB]For sure, MacWarehouse won't give a damn and although AppleCare allows you to go to whichever authorised dealer you like, you'll be just another customer. In your profession, where loss of a days use or some data, etc. costs a lot more than $400, I think its wise to build up a rapport with a local dealer. It may save a future contract.[QB]

My powerbook is being bought up here...the imac is the second computer. I'm not worried about "a day or two" with that computer that's why I didn't buy my powerbook from down there.

Thanks for the advice. I have to go talk to my brain now...lol


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## Dr.G.

Pamela, with your luck, you will try to bring the computer into Canada on the day the US declares that Apple Mac computers are so powerful and sophisticated, that for "national security", they must remain in the US and not fall into the hands of "enemies of the state". Good luck.


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## Pamela

LOL. No doubt Dr.G...no doubt.


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## Dr.G.

Still, if you do get caught, I wonder what the specific consequences might be of this act?


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## Pamela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.G.:
*Still, if you do get caught, I wonder what the specific consequences might be of this act?*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to know. You just can't get the answers though. Plus it varies from officer to officer. I was tempted to call up and directly ask. But I don't know what kind of super powers they might have to track me down...LOL

My husband became a landed immigrant in canada 4 months ago. My biggest worry is that something happens with that...


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## MACSPECTRUM

False declarations and the seizure of goods

If you do not declare goods, or if you falsely declare them, we can seize the goods. This means that you may lose the goods permanently, or that you may have to pay to get them back.

Depending on the type of goods and the circumstances involved, we may impose a penalty that ranges from 25% to 80% of the goods' value.

The law also allows us to seize vehicles you use to unlawfully import goods. When this happens, we impose a penalty you have to pay before we return the vehicle. We usually seize commodities such as alcohol and tobacco products outright when they are not properly declared, and you cannot get them back.

We keep a record of infractions in our computer system that can influence the customs inspection process. If you have an infraction record, you may have to undergo a more detailed customs examination on future trips.

If you have had your goods seized and disagree with the action taken, you can appeal. To do this, you should write a letter to us within 30 days of the date of the seizure, to tell us you want to appeal. You can send the letter to any of our customs offices. You can find more information about the appeal process on the front of your seizure receipt form.


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## Pamela

I found a website with the information...and they have a duty/tax calculator too...but for some reason, the category of computers says no duty, no gst, but pay pst. so i went to the calculator, entered the info and the category...and it came out saying that I had to pay GST?!! I'M SO SICK OF MISINFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

here's the site, maybe someone else can tell me what the heck is going on???
http://www.aacb.com/info/expectpage.htm


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## Brian Scully

Pamela 
What services does your fledgling company offer that are not available in Washington State or perhaps others at a lower price? You seem to want to purchase south of the border to save money to the detriment of profits to your Canadian Apple Dealer. 

I wonder how you might feel if your potential clients in BC took the same attitude. 

Its called marketing or what goes around comes around. 

You seem to be working the system to the n'th degree....buying for the best price and contempating smuggling to avoid 400 dollars in taxes? With a new husband that could potenitaly lose his landed immigrant status? 

Boy it sure seems to be a great deal .....NOT 

Remind me to never ever consider contacting your company The ethics do not seem to be there. If you will screw the system (government/taxes/smuggling ) then I am sure you will do the same to your clients . Just IMHO


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## jfpoole

Brian Scully wrote:
*You seem to be working the system to the n'th degree....buying for the best price and contempating smuggling to avoid 400 dollars in taxes?*

What's also funny is that she complains when people won't pay what she wants for her old laptop (which was overpriced in the first place)


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## Pamela

You are entitled to you opinion, but I think you are blowing it just a *little* bit out of proportion. 

I am still a student...and I am trying to get my business up and running with no capital. And for all the grief Canada customs/immigration has put me through over the last year and a half, $450 is a grain of sand on a beach compared to the emotional and financial losses I have concurred because of them.


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## Pamela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jfpoole:
*Brian Scully wrote:
You seem to be working the system to the n'th degree....buying for the best price and contempating smuggling to avoid 400 dollars in taxes?

What's also funny is that she complains when people won't pay what she wants for her old laptop (which was overpriced in the first place) *<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha. yeah funny. I was told by someone who *knows* about laptop prices that that is what it would be worth. Apparently a big mistake listening to them. You'll see the price has come down as I have done my *own* research regarding the issue.


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## Pamela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jfpoole:
*Brian Scully wrote:
You seem to be working the system to the n'th degree....buying for the best price and contempating smuggling to avoid 400 dollars in taxes?

What's also funny is that she complains when people won't pay what she wants for her old laptop (which was overpriced in the first place) *<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm...and where did I *complain*?


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## Pamela

You know. I have to say something here. I think it's totally inappropriate to be judging someone based on what they post. I could make myself "anonomous" like most of you do, but I choose not to because I have nothing to hide. But I guess that that's my own fault for thinking that people would act like adults here. 

I was about to explain myself and my situation, but I realized....I, in no way, have to explain my actions to anybody here. You don't know me, and don't think you can judge me by a few posts that I put up. Those posts do nothing but prove how shallow and petty you are, thinking you have the right to judge someone. People that know me would laugh at the alligations that have gone on here. 

Like I've said before. If you don't have anything helpful to say then please, in the future, don't reply.


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## Brian Scully

Pamela is a student ......great we were all that at one point in our lives. 

She evidently has not graduated and wants to start her own company just out of the blocks.... An envious position which we might all applaud and she expects because of some previous undocumented problems with Canada Customs that she has the "right" to exploit the rules and regulations...smuggle...whatever 

Ok just let's all us Canucks ignore the rules because we "have been hit on by Canada Customs" and damit we all have our stories to tell. 

Sorry Pamela but play by the rules Buy your computer in Canada where a Canadian company can make a modest profit and provide the service that you will obviously need . 

The BC Apple community is perhaps more closely knit than you might imagine. Dealers tell dealers and your American machine might indeed be ostracized . I sure hope this would be the case . 

Pamela you really have to take the chip off your shoulder if you want your company to flourish 
Please take "Chip off Shoulder 101" its a mandatory course for "Life 101"


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## Pamela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Scully:
* 

Sorry Pamela but play by the rules Buy your computer in Canada where a Canadian company can make a modest profit and provide the service that you will obviously need . 

The BC Apple community is perhaps more closely knit than you might imagine. Dealers tell dealers and your American machine might indeed be ostracized . I sure hope this would be the case . 

*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is totally off topic, and I know I'll get flamed for this...but let's ask one question. Why should one assume that my loyalites should go to Canada? Or any country for that matter? Is this based on where one is born? Where one is conducting business? Where one feels their "home" is? What is the criteria that one would evaluate "who" they should give their money to? And who should make this decision?


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## MACSPECTRUM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I have nothing to hide. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing except the Macintosh in your auto's trunk it seems.


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## CubaMark

Pamela, 

A few notes...

1/ You've posted your dilemma in a public internet forum. Unfortunately for you, I am also "in" here, which means CSIS is probably in here also. They know who you are, and what you're planning to do  

2/ Regardless of where one's state-political loyalties lie, it is in one's own self-interest to support and strengthen the local economy, as opposed to that of someone "down the road". As a student, you should have access to a campus computer store which provides a significant discount from retail, though it varies with each product (the 12" Powerbook is $450 off retail, for example). Simon Fraser University's Microcomputer Store, for example, has the 15" iMac at $1938.

3/ There ain't no justice. Therefore, your past issues with immigration / customs are irrelevant to the issue at hand; if you get caught (and you <u>are</u> contemplating doing something illegal), you may well end up (a) without your iMac, (b) with a hefty fine and a record, and (c) in a position for members of this board to say "I told you so" - not something <u>I'd</u> like to have happen! 

Best of luck with your decision...

M.


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## Pamela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CubaMark:
*Pamela, 

A few notes...

1/ You've posted your dilemma in a public internet forum. Unfortunately for you, I am also "in" here, which means CSIS is probably in here also. They know who you are, and what you're planning to do  

2/ Regardless of where one's state-political loyalties lie, it is in one's own self-interest to support and strengthen the local economy, as opposed to that of someone "down the road". As a student, you should have access to a campus computer store which provides a significant discount from retail, though it varies with each product (the 12" Powerbook is $450 off retail, for example). Simon Fraser University's Microcomputer Store, for example, has the 15" iMac at $1938.

3/ There ain't no justice. Therefore, your past issues with immigration / customs are irrelevant to the issue at hand; if you get caught (and you <u>are</u> contemplating doing something illegal), you may well end up (a) without your iMac, (b) with a hefty fine and a record, and (c) in a position for members of this board to say "I told you so" - not something <u>I'd</u> like to have happen! 

Best of luck with your decision...

M.*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my decision was made a short time ago. Thank you for your advice and concern.

We'll see how long this thread lasts though.


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## ehMax

*Why should one assume that my loyalites should go to Canada? *

Maybe because you joined ehMac, *CANADA'S Mac Community*?


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## Dr.G.

Pamela, this thread will last as long as you reply to the "digs" and not the posts sharing advice or valid comments. Ignore the "digs" and, eventually, they go away, leaving the advice to help you make a decision or fix a problem.


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## gordguide

There are no duties or tariffs on US made goods. In general, computer parts are not US made, though. It has nothing to do with what country you bought an item in; it's where its made that counts.

However, that rule is generally ignored when travelling from the US; they treat everything like it was US made. Just one example of the rules, and how they are ignored when agents are expediting a clearing of Canadain Customs.

There have never been duties on computer hardware or software, from any country. Most duties on electronics of any kind were eliminated during the 80's (it began with a reduction around 1980 and eventually dissapeared to nothing by around 1986).

In general, say nothing and let the agent lead you where he wants to go. It doesn't do you any good to make any indication that you know what the rules are, believe me. They just want to get routine jobs over with; but that does make it difficult to know what to do sometimes. Answer questions directly, don't volunteer anything, tell the truth, and soon it will be over with.

As for customs, yeah, you have to declare everything. You will not pay duties on a Mac, even if it takes you past your exemption on a trip to the US. But, it will become part of your purchases (eating up your exemption and then some), making it possible that other items you bought may be subject to duties.

Don't confuse duties and tariffs with sales taxes. GST and (if you live in the province where you cross) possibly PST are payable, just like you bought it in Canada.

As for not declaring items (it's called smuggling) you probably shouldn't consider it. The amounts you end up paying when declaring everything, even if you do pay duties, are usually pretty insignificant.

For example, once I had a bottle of Tequila given to me while travelling in the US, it had been purchased in Mexico. When they asked me what it was worth, I said, I don't know, it's a gift. They pressed further, so I said, it was bought in Mexico, that's about all I know, how about $2? They said, fine, you owe 30 cents on the Tequila. Nolo Problemo, I said. I don't think I've ever paid more than about $40, with usually something like a few hundred or four $US over my exemption.

If you get caught smuggling, the grief can be pretty major. I once declared a guess of $US 700 on a trip from the US; I knew that would trigger a trip to check out my stuff, so didn't think much of it; we'd sort it out in the office, I thought.

WRONG! Big mistake. When I pulled out my recipts (I had declared everything verbally, no playing around involved) it added up to eight-hundred something. A $100 fine, on the spot. An extra 10% on top of the duties normally due. Paid all duties, and had extra forms I never saw before in my life, including one that listed everything I had bought and a big "Subject to Seizure" stamp on it. Oh, and all through the whole ordeal, they were NOT nice. At all.

Since I was travelling by aircraft, that wasn't as big a deal as it could have been. But, if you are travelling by car, they can seize everything used to commit smuggling. That means the vehicle you're driving in; and everything in it or towed by it. It doesn't matter who owns what. And, as my experience shows, a $5 item you failed to declare can trigger it all. You won't get it back without a lot of time, money and possibly without showing up at the auction and buying it a second time. Not so funny.

Now, I take out a calculator and do it down to the penny before I come even close to the border. Even though, most of the time, they don't expect such precision, it will save your ass on the one time they do.

My customs file while travelling out-of-country had a note on it, which caused me problems, every time I travelled, for years.

There are very few people who are authorized to come into your home or search any place, at any time, without a warrant, in Canada. Customs agents can, though, weeks or even years after, if you've ever left and re-entered Canada, or know someone who did. They have powers of search, seizure and arrest that exceed any police officer's. Just though you'd like to know.

I've had other, even stranger experiences at Customs. One time, an agent asked me if I had anything to declare. We were on a charter from Chicago, and I was one of only two Canadians on the flight. We both were taken off to one side. He added "you must have bought some used books, right?" I said I bought this fishing rod, and he replied, glaring, "OK, a fishing rod and some used books, right?" I said, hesitating, "Yeah, some used books". He goes, "Good, duty free used books" and then it was stamp, stamp, stamp, nothing due, a friendly "thank you" and a cherry "welcome home".

The person standing behind me got the "used books" treatment as well, they had seen it all, and figured out enough to play along without hesitating. I only met him once, though.


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## minnes

I am amazed that this topic is being discussed at all!
I would advise no one to try to smuggle any new items into Canada from the USA.
Every time I have been run through the thrid degree, they always find a way to gouge me.
And frankly if it just to avoid GST and PST, then buy it here and save the grief and possibly a red flag next to your name inthe customs office.
In May 1997, I was crossing the Windsor to Detroit tunnel in a bus headed from Hamilton to Chicago for an antique show, they went through my single bag of collectable that I was going to trade off to defer my costs at the show. When the customs person looked in my stuff, they hauled me off the bus and into the Detroit office for 3 hours and a third dgree questioning. At about 3am, they presented me with a decision. I could go home right away or face a five year bar on USA entry, plus hefty fines and a file as undesirable person. What could I do, my whole vacation was shot, so Just asked to go home. So they gave my ID to a bus driver who loaded me on a bus and drove me back to the Canadian entry point into Windsor. The Canaian ofice handed me my ID back and said I was free to go. When I told them, I was legally blind and now kind of lost, they gave me directions on how to walk to the Windsor bus station from the bridge. I got to the bus station at about 4am, it was locked of course and pitch black outside, I called my friend to tell him I would ne be meeting hime for breakfast in Chcago at 7am.
Then I just sat in the dark in silence for 2 hours until a bus came by. That was my 1997 vacation.

So To make a long story short, dont fool around at the border, its not worth it.


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