# Do the police and RCMP have too much power or not



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

With all the "security" concerns - real or manufactured are we slipping into a police state and allowing civil liberties to be abused?

Pretty heavy handed "invasion " in Ottawa and the Toronto police turn out to be a bit tawdry.

Relevant stories

"I felt very violated" Veteran reporter says 

Controls needed 


Toronto Police scandal calls for oversight 

Comments welcome.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

I think the term "Police State" is probably OK as an editorial comment. It certainly isn't true; in a real "Police State" we wouldn't hear a word about it.

If being heavy-handed is not a mistake but part of the procedure then you have a problem. Cops can, do, and always will make mistakes or errors in judgement. It's what happens after they do that counts.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

"making mistakes" and "just being human" is all well and good for someone that sells chocolate bars or someone that pumps gasoline, but if the person has the ability to carry a firearm, discharge the firearm, obtain and enforce a search warrant, those person(s) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law

these people have extraordianary powers and with power comes extraordinary responsibility

any and all abuses of said powers should not be tolerated in any way, shape or form.

what the RCMP did to that Ottawa Citizen reporter is absolutely unjust and abusing their power to intimidate

and now there are rumbling of a law to go on the books re: sensitive gov't information and being illegal to have any of it.

it will breed an posture of "untouchable" at the highest ranks of our gov't

the rank and file MUST be able to question and obtain info.
if the PTB (powers that be) have a info. leak, let them handle it internally and NOT take it out on journalists

be careful. this could just be the thin edge of the wedge !!


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

For those wondering what the fuss is about, here is the Act in its entireity:

Security of Information Act

What exactly is located on Grosse Ile, P.Q., which requires it to be a restricted place? Some kinda secret (oops!  ) RCMP training facility? Canada's version of Guantánamo?)

M


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Thius one really desturbed me a while back tho I have to think the Bank bears more of the blame but it points to other issues in "even-handed" justice. I do this exact type of exchange likely twice a week.

* "Phony bill claim destroys business*

Pair handcuffed, arrested in error 
No apology from bank after mistake

Muhammad gave the teller nine $100 bills and some change, which he had withdrawn from his own bank. And his 28-year-old friend (who asked that his name not be used) handed over the rest of the cash, mainly in $100 bills, to pay for the $2,800 money order. The bank teller left with the money, spoke with the branch manager and returned about five minutes later. "Your bills are fake," Muhammad recalls the teller said as two mall security guards suddenly appeared behind them.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD 
STAFF REPORTER -Toronto Star Dec 23, 2003

Ajmal Muhammad was one money order away from fulfilling his dream.

At 26, he had saved and borrowed enough money from his parents to open a computer store and Web design company with his high school friend. They had talked about their business ever since graduating from university and college.

Everything had been ordered and the business cards already printed when Muhammad and his partner went to the Scarborough Town Centre's Toronto-Dominion bank to get a money order to pay the first and last months' rent on an east-end shop.

Their store was opening the following day.

Muhammad gave the teller nine $100 bills and some change, which he had withdrawn from his own bank.

And his 28-year-old friend (who asked that his name not be used) handed over the rest of the cash, mainly in $100 bills, to pay for the $2,800 money order.

The bank teller left with the money, spoke with the branch manager and returned about five minutes later.

"Your bills are fake," Muhammad recalls the teller said as two mall security guards suddenly appeared behind them.

The two men were arrested, handcuffed and marched through the busy bank and the mall, taken to a nearby police station where they say they were questioned, strip-searched and held in a cold cell without their jackets for most of the night. They were released in the early morning.

A judge told them the next day they couldn't talk to each other until their case was ended.

They lost their business, their savings and their friendship. Then, five months later, they were told it was all a mistake.

Toronto police had sent the bills to a Royal Canadian Mounted Police lab in Ottawa that determined the bills were real. The charges were dropped, and the money was returned, but it went to pay their legal fees.

"I can't help but think this is because I'm from a racial minority," said Muhammad, who came to Canada with his family from Afghanistan in 1992. "If it was somebody else would they really go and check every hundred dollar bill? It's not a lot of money."

Toronto-Dominion spokesperson Jeff Keay said it is standard bank procedure to check all $100 bills when a customer brings in a large deposit. Most of the branches, he said, use a pen known as the "Bill Buster" to detect counterfeit bills. A Web site for the pen advertises that the technology is the "only answer to counterfeit bank notes that have been coated and cannot be recognized by ultraviolet light."

Keay said he could not comment on Muhammad's case specifically but said "it would be fair to say we'd be taking a look at the technology we're using."

He also said that in cases where a mistake has been made the bank works with the customer to find an "appropriate resolution."

"We've never said we're perfect," Keay added.

But Muhammad said since September, when the charges were dropped, his lawyer Mohammed Syed has written to the bank, but it hasn't offered to pay his $5,000 legal bill or any other compensation. "They haven't even said, `Sorry.' But forget the humiliation I experienced, at least they should pay for my losses," Muhammad said.

Muhammad borrowed more money from his parents, after his arrest, to pay the rent and try to start the business on his own.

The walls in his Kingston Rd. store, near Lawrence Ave. E., hold only a small amount of stock, however, and Muhammad says anything he sells goes to pay his debt. He is considering a civil suit and two weeks ago hired lawyer James Morton.

"These are both hard-working businesspeople who came into a bank with a relatively small (amount) of cash," Morton said yesterday.

"The police are quite within their rights to make an arrest if a bank says a bill is phony because really, who could tell you if a bill is phony better than a bank?" 
•••••

Surely this could have been handled far better both by police and other authorities.
This along with the "systemic racism" that report after report has shown in our institutions and police in particular is very disturbing.
These young men will have trouble travelling abroad the rest of their lives.
There is far too much a "one trap door" when it comes to dealing with the law and justice system - it smacks of "guilty DESPITE proven innocent.

Toronto police have continually resisted civilian oversight. 

[ January 24, 2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: MacDoc ]


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

this is one of those cases where i wish Canadian lawyers were allowed to sue based on % of the award

large institutions like police and banks MUST exercise proper self restraint when dealing with people and their all too easily shattered lives

big lawsuits would make police and banks think a little bit before acting

i really don't see another way to treat these types of "bullies"


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## ajamett (Feb 5, 2001)

Here is my two cents worth...

It would appear that the civil rights Canadians have enjoyed have been steadily diminished as a result of the 9-11 attacks (which has always confounded me...since no attacks were aimed at Canadian interests).

We as citizens must make it clear to our politicians that such heavy handed abuse of power will absolutely not be tolerated.... and if they continue it will be up to us citizens to dismantle any oppressive institutions...brick by brick if need be.

Mr. Martin.... the Pinochet way of doing things are not acceptable!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

That's a lot more than 2¢ worth - very succinct.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... "making mistakes" and "just being human" is all well and good for someone that sells chocolate bars or someone that pumps gasoline, but if the person has the ability to carry a firearm, discharge the firearm, obtain and enforce a search warrant, those person(s) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. ..."

Prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law is exactly what I implied should be done. (" It's what happens afterwards that counts." ).

The RCMP did absolutely nothing wrong in this case; they obtained a warrant to investigate a complaint about a law that was broken, carried out the warrant in an orderly manner, restricted the search to items of interest in the complaint (and didn't shoot anyone).

The story has been front-page news for a week, so it is (as it should be) under public scrutiny. That won't happen in a police state.

The issue is not what the police did; we hire them to enforce and investigate the laws we pass.

This issue is the law itself (which prompted the investigation in the first place). Is it necessary and (equally important) justifiable in a free society?

Let's have the politicians explain themselves, and lets have a debate about whether it's justified to give police the responsibility to discover the source of a leak of information from government records.

Here's the deal with cops: make a complaint (and someone most certainly did in this case) and they investigate if a law may have been broken (and one was). Once those two events happen, they must attempt to solve it; it's not (or should not be) optional to investigate a valid complaint.

We can be quite confident a complaint was made; from the act:

[begin quote]
GENERAL

Attorney General's consent 

24. No prosecution shall be commenced for an offence against this Act without the consent of the Attorney General.
[end quote]

If it turns out the RCMP acted alone, without the consent of the AG, that's different. But so far I haven't heard that.

So, is the law as now written both necessary and justifiable?

[ January 25, 2004, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: gordguide ]


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## motoyen (Aug 15, 2001)

I hate cops. I think they all should be shot, especially the VPD.

vpd at work


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## blue sky (Oct 24, 2003)

Great topic !

Just hope our replies are not being monitored.









As with anything else in a relatively free society, the majority of individuals in our security forces are dedicated and responsible. It is the few who feel they "are the law" that are the dangerous ones. BTW, I have had that phrase used in front of me by a local constable in a very threatening manner.

If the police/RCMP knew that they would be harshly dealt with, should they abuse their position, there may be fewer problems with individuals ( or small groups within ) who overstep their mandate. As it is now, most of these feel they can get away with almost anything because they can, and receive little or no punishment if caught.

As for the bank,


> "The police are quite within their rights to make an arrest if a bank says a bill is phony because really, who could tell you if a bill is phony better than a bank?"


,
the ability to determine if a bill is counterfeit is not always easy, even for very experienced staff, and even the police experts cannot tell immediately if the fake is of very high quality. The bank was wrong and the police were wrong. Both should admit as much and apologize.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"Prime Minister Paul Martin seems to grasp what's at stake in the Maher Arar case, even if some Canadian security officials do not.

By ordering a public inquiry into how a Canadian came to be deemed a terror suspect to be bundled off to Syria for torture, Martin has moved to affirm not only Arar's civil rights, but those of the public generally.

Here was a case where a Canadian citizen accused of no wrongdoing catches the attention of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, then is detained by American agents in a New York airport. He is deported to Syria, his birthplace, possibly because of information from either the Canadian Security Intelligence Service or the Mounties. In Syria, a "confession" is extracted from him under torture. It's a nightmare.

And it doesn't end there.''

Heartening Ara Probe 

I was very pleased to see Martin take this seriously. The entire human rights abuse mess done in the name of "security" is making me ill.

It's given the jackboot and bigoted mentality in too many institutions far too free a reign.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

David,
Martin's call for a public inquiry has much more to do with political expediency than anything else

as with the extra questions put to the supreme court of canada re: same sex marriage

they are both delaying tactics so that Martin can call a spring election and not have to deal with these issues

his stock answer during the election will be: "it's before the courts"

it is politics after all


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If it gets the enquiry I don't really care if it's politics or convictions.

The marriage issue I agree is politics and he is dotting i's and crossing t's.

Politics is a necessary art and it is one of compromise. Otherwise you get a shrub "doing what's right"


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I don't really care if it's politics or convictions.


some areas of the incident will not be investigated due to "national security"
who gets to decide what that means?
who, if anyone, reviews the decision to make sure it really is an issue of "national security" and not politically convenient?


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