# I Am Running Windows Apps Without Windows!



## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Check It Out!


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## AlephNull (Jan 28, 2005)

and what method are you using, pray tell?


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## ericssonboi (Jan 26, 2005)

Cmon.. we're all dying to know..


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## JAGflyer (Jan 10, 2005)

MSN Messenger.. for Mac
Office ... for Mac
Netscape .. for Mac


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

OOO and here is the Windows version of Nero 



JAGflyer said:


> MSN Messenger.. for Mac
> Office ... for Mac
> Netscape .. for Mac


Tobad its not universal and netscape and msn for mac sucks crap  lol


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## ericssonboi (Jan 26, 2005)

Did you purchase the program or is it a beta version? I'm dying to remove parallels from my system as its taking up too much HD space.


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## green_ears (Feb 26, 2005)

Well, you are clearly running these under some fork of WINE (see X11 window icons)... So, you either fought hard with WINE or bought an OSX-specific port with support libraries for most Windows apps.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

he's using "Crossover Mac."

http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/


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## green_ears (Feb 26, 2005)

Yeah, just found it. Wasn't sure it was out yet... Looks like they are in testing mode and he must be one of the lucky testers in the current wave of tests.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Thats right  CrossOver for Mac  lol sorry I didn't respond in time my modem was being a piece of crap lol. I did use Wine as well. The Netscape application was running under Wine. If any one is interested in using Wine as an alternative please let me know and I will send you the instructions on how to get it going!


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## JAGflyer (Jan 10, 2005)

I thought maybe a mac WindowBlinds?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Isn't this *exactly* what many Mac users are looking for? No (well, significantly reduced) worries about viruses/security/updates, retention of a familiar (preferred) interface and NO exorbitant price for having to install Windows XP SP2....


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

what I do love about Apple right now is that by going Intel there are some pretty exciting things coming forth from everywhere...like Crossover...

It seems there are people out there that are pretty stoked about using stuff on the Mac as well as Linux and are having fun doing it.

Keep up the good work Apple101 great to see some people trying stuff out in the real world and letting us know how good it is! Cheers


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## green_ears (Feb 26, 2005)

For the gamers among you... An Ottawa company is using the same technology to deliver PC games to OSX: http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=24

=)


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Let me reclaim 27GB back into a Mac partition! Woohoo.


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## webwiz23 (Dec 10, 2005)

Too bad i use PPC, just will have to wait until i have the money for an Intel :-(


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

imactheknife said:


> what I do love about Apple right now is that by going Intel there are some pretty exciting things coming forth from everywhere...like Crossover...


Hey I couldn't agree more! 



imactheknife said:


> It seems there are people out there that are pretty stoked about using stuff on the Mac as well as Linux and are having fun doing it.


Agreed!!! Just last week I got in touch with a few people who decided to install Linux on their Intel Mac for development purposes and they were extremely impressed with the performance and the fact that they can enjoy Mac OS X and Linux on one machine. I myself decided to take the plunge and install Novell Suse Linux and hell it runs wayyy better on the iMac then it ever did on my HP!



imactheknife said:


> Keep up the good work Apple101 great to see some people trying stuff out in the real world and letting us know how good it is! Cheers


Hey thanks! I would like to upload this application to my iDisk so that everyone on ehmac who owns an Intel Mac could try it out, I just don't want to get in trouble for doing it  If I did upload it I can trust that you guys wont redistribute it


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I was reading about 'CrossOver Mac' in the September issue of MacAddict. Seems like the cat's meow for anyone needing to run Windows applications on the IntelMac.
I hope to hear a lot more about it, upside and downside compared to Parallels and Bootcamp with XP.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

Apple101 said:


> Agreed!!! Just last week I got in touch with a few people who decided to install Linux on their Intel Mac for development purposes and they were extremely impressed with the performance and the fact that they can enjoy Mac OS X and Linux on one machine. I myself decided to take the plunge and install Novell Suse Linux and hell it runs wayyy better on the iMac then it ever did on my HP!


HI,

Are you installing Linux on the native iMac, or through Parallels Desktop? I've got Ubuntu on Parallels. 

If you are installing it natively, what are you doing for HD space? Re-partition? What takes care of that for you?


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

Apple101,

Just out fo interest how do they figure out if a Windows program can run on Crossover Mac ?
If some run on it what is the problem that would stop other programs running on it ?

I totally agree.....some very exciting things happening in the Mac world these days.

I wonder how much of this was planned from the first release of OSX ????


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Atroz said:


> HI,
> 
> Are you installing Linux on the native iMac, or through Parallels Desktop? I've got Ubuntu on Parallels.
> 
> If you are installing it natively, what are you doing for HD space? Re-partition? What takes care of that for you?


Hey! I am running it natively. I have a multiple boot solution. Currently it is Windows Server 2003, Windows Vista, Mac OS X, and Suse Linux.

Here is a great tutorial that I found online that helped out a bit. It really is only meant for triple boot solutions but I tweaked some of the commands so that it works with a quad boot solution 

http://wiki.onmac.net/index.php/Triple_Boot_via_BootCamp#Before_you_start

Also if anyone needs the patch for GRUB let me know!


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Loafer said:


> Apple101,
> 
> Just out fo interest how do they figure out if a Windows program can run on Crossover Mac ?
> If some run on it what is the problem that would stop other programs running on it ?
> ...


Hey! Well Loafer there are quite a few supported Windows applications that will run with no problems under WINE. Some of these applications may include Instant messaging applications, Internet browsers, Office applications, and in some cases even games. Now the whole purpose of this project is to create a compatibility layer for running Windows based programs. It is an implementation of the Windows application programming interface. This interface is created in the x11 terminal which in turn allows win32 applications to run using the aid of wine-helper. Now the bottle that is created which simulates a Windows environment that allows these applications to run is made possible by the use of native Windows dynamic link libraries. Unfortunately some applications may not work correctly under this environment because they have certain requirements in which this project is incapable of delivering. However I am pleased to report that the community is working hard to get more and more applications supported.


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## JPL (Jan 21, 2005)

Now this is interesting, thanks for the post and please keep us appraised.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

JPL said:


> Now this is interesting, thanks for the post and please keep us appraised.


Will do


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Apple101

This looks awesome. Can you give us an idea of performance? Is it like running apps natively, similar to parallels, slow like virtual PC? If the performance is good this looks like a fantastic windows software solution for me. I was leaning toward parallels but this looks even better if it performs well.


Thanks
MacGuiver


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

The minute they make a way for me to run Battlefield 2 on my G5, I will be a very happy man.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

MacGuiver said:


> Apple101
> 
> This looks awesome. Can you give us an idea of performance? Is it like running apps natively, similar to parallels, slow like virtual PC? If the performance is good this looks like a fantastic windows software solution for me. I was leaning toward parallels but this looks even better if it performs well.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! All applications that are installed run at native speeds. I will be trying out Unreal Tournament very soon, I already tried half life and it worked beautifully! Everything works the way it should! VERY impressed.




« MannyP Design » said:


> The minute they make a way for me to run Battlefield 2 on my G5, I will be a very happy man.


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## Fisto (Nov 27, 2003)

This is so cool, seeing as I have a MacBook Pro but have been holding off on the whole windows thing because I don't want to fork out extra just for Windows when I would rarely use it anyway.
My question would be is it able to run the windows version of Photoshop CS. That would really make it worthwhile. Have you tried that yet? 
This will be great for any apps like this that we're waiting for a universal version to come out. 
I agree with everyone. There are some exciting changes happening now that mac is intel. I've always loved mac and I used to tell everyone it was great but that it wasn't for everyone. Now I'm ready to convert the world. Now it's getting way easier to switch. Not only is the hardware as operational and purdy as it has always been, but with windows apps and games on a mac it's definitely ready to go mainstream.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Apple 101 - What's your assessment of collecting Windows viruses and malware using this approach? Significantly less than if you use the other approaches where you have XP loaded on the Mac I assume.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Fisto said:


> This is so cool, seeing as I have a MacBook Pro but have been holding off on the whole windows thing because I don't want to fork out extra just for Windows when I would rarely use it anyway.
> My question would be is it able to run the windows version of Photoshop CS. That would really make it worthwhile. Have you tried that yet?
> This will be great for any apps like this that we're waiting for a universal version to come out.
> I agree with everyone. There are some exciting changes happening now that mac is intel. I've always loved mac and I used to tell everyone it was great but that it wasn't for everyone. Now I'm ready to convert the world. Now it's getting way easier to switch. Not only is the hardware as operational and purdy as it has always been, but with windows apps and games on a mac it's definitely ready to go mainstream.


I personally have not tried running Photoshop, I do know that in its supported programs database Photoshop 7 is in there.



krs said:


> Apple 101 - What's your assessment of collecting Windows viruses and malware using this approach? Significantly less than if you use the other approaches where you have XP loaded on the Mac I assume.


It is significantly less as viruses are incapable of propagating throughout the system as it would if you have Windows actually installed on the system.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

*Update!!!!!!*

Make Sure You Install X11 First Before You Install And Use Crossover!


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Apple101 said:


> Make Sure You Install X11 First Before You Install And Use Crossover!


Wait a sec... where is Crossover available from? Their Beta is closed.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

da_jonesy said:


> Wait a sec... where is Crossover available from? There Beta is closed.


Its not even a beta its in an alpha status. I was one of the lucky ones  You will need to wait until the end of the month to get the public beta.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

*UT2004 on crossover*

I downloaded the demo of Unreal Tournament 2004 for Windows and it works flawlessly!!!


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

Apple101 said:


> I downloaded the demo of Unreal Tournament 2004 for Windows and it works flawlessly!!!


Full accelerated Direct 3D graphics? 

What Frame rate and at what resolution?


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Atroz said:


> Full accelerated Direct 3D graphics?
> 
> What Frame rate and at what resolution?


Currently these are my settings. I will try tweaking them later on


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

Apple101 said:


> Currently these are my settings. I will try tweaking them later on


Is that all?


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Atroz said:


> Is that all?



 Well I am going to get some screen shots of the game play. I will see if I can play people online. I think... and I stand to be corrected on this but I do believe that you are able to play online with the demo.


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## green_ears (Feb 26, 2005)

MacGuiver said:


> Is it like running apps natively, similar to parallels, slow like virtual PC?


I don't think you fully understand how CrossOver Office (WINE) works... It is actually runnning the windows EXE and DLLs NATIVELY by setting up a sort of windows sandbox (which includes all the equivalent windows DLLs, etc) for the stuff to execute safely in. The programs are running unaltered in binary form on the Intel CPU. Think of it as everything you need to run windows programs, minus the actual windows operating system: just enough to keep the programs happy and let them think they are executing inside a real windows. There is ZERO emulation involved. In fact, WINE stands for WINE Is Not an Emulator.  Also, as with emulation, you are running windows programs and are thus subject to viruses and bugs, etc. However, unlike emulation or parallels, you are less likely to have tons of spyware running in the background because you are only executing a single windows program at a time, not the whole operating system.


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

Hey Apple101,

Okay.. gotta ask..

MSN Messenger... are you getting your iSight to work, and can you audio/video chat with others through MSN Messenger?


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## green_ears (Feb 26, 2005)

Atroz said:


> Is that all?


CrossOver Office does nothing with DirectX from what I last saw... They focus on 2D applications and any game that actually runs is rendering in 100% software acceleration, no hardware.

If you want real gaming performance, you'll have to wait for Transgaming Cider which actually traps DirectX calls (totally unsupported by OSX) and translates them in realtime into openGl calls (totally supported by OSX). To my knowledge, even if you can get DirectX installed under WINE in OSX, it will not have any DirectX accelerated drivers to use the chip on your graphics card. Transgaming has usually worked around this issue by using openGl instead in their Linux product, Cedega, since both ATI and nVidia have openGl accelerated drivers available for Linux. I imagine they will reuse this technique for OSX since it's already 95% of the solution for OSX...

I've used Cedega in the past for games like Quake 3 and Warcraft 3 and the performance was nearly equal to what I would get using real DirectX under Windows on the same system and it looked just as great.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Green_ears

Thanks for the lesson on CrossOver. Man this solution sounds fantastic. I'll keep my eye on its development and can't wait to try it out when it comes available.
I ordered xp pro yesterday from NCIX. Had I known of this I may have put that purchase on hold. DOH!!

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

Green ears: would I be able to run SolidWorks or similar 3D CAD program using Crossover? I was considering getting an imac to run SW via boot camp and WinXP, but if I can avoid the XP part that would be awesome.

SolidWorks uses OpenGL for graphics, and I believe the imac's video card is good enough (but not great) for that application.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

mac_geek said:


> Hey Apple101,
> 
> Okay.. gotta ask..
> 
> MSN Messenger... are you getting your iSight to work, and can you audio/video chat with others through MSN Messenger?


Unfortunately there are some issues involving iSight with MSN Messenger. And to anyone who asks if DirectX or OpenGL is supported with their apps running CrossOver will have to wait. There are rumors going around that they are planning on supporting it in the near future.


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

miguelsanchez said:


> Green ears: would I be able to run SolidWorks or similar 3D CAD program using Crossover? I was considering getting an imac to run SW via boot camp and WinXP, but if I can avoid the XP part that would be awesome.
> 
> SolidWorks uses OpenGL for graphics, and I believe the imac's video card is good enough (but not great) for that application.


I'm wondering the same thing about AutoCad. Would love to try it out and see how it runs using crossover instead of running an emulator. Sounds like crossover could be just what the doctor ordered.

BTW Apple101 - what mac are you running Crossover on?


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

thatcomputerguy said:


> BTW Apple101 - what mac are you running Crossover on?


Hey!! I am running it on an Intel iMac.


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## green_ears (Feb 26, 2005)

miguelsanchez said:


> Green ears: would I be able to run SolidWorks or similar 3D CAD program using Crossover? I was considering getting an imac to run SW via boot camp and WinXP, but if I can avoid the XP part that would be awesome.
> 
> SolidWorks uses OpenGL for graphics, and I believe the imac's video card is good enough (but not great) for that application.


You would be best off checking the CrossOver forums for program support. According to this Tips & Tricks page, AutoCAD 2004 works fine: http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/browse/name/?app_id=291;tips=1


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## teewee (Apr 30, 2006)

Hi,

I am quite the noob at parallels and crossover. So whats the difference between the two? Parallels is already avaliable for mac, i was contemplating about whether to try it out or not. what are the disadvantages?

thanks!


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

teewee said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am quite the noob at parallels and crossover. So whats the difference between the two? Parallels is already avaliable for mac, i was contemplating about whether to try it out or not. what are the disadvantages?
> 
> thanks!


in a nutshell, Parrallels lets you running windows on a mac in an emulated environment. Crossover lets you run windows apps, without having to install windows.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

teewee said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am quite the noob at parallels and crossover. So whats the difference between the two? Parallels is already avaliable for mac, i was contemplating about whether to try it out or not. what are the disadvantages?
> 
> thanks!


Parallels Desktop is a virtual machine. You install Windows on it then run windows based software. You can also install Linux, FreeBSD, and other X86 compatible operating systems. This means you need a licence for the OS (e.g. Windows XP). It also means you are running Windows and get all the headaches that come with that (e.g. Viruses, malware, patching, etc).

Crossover is software that pretends to be the Windows API. Basically when a program makes a call to the underlying OS (e.g. to draw a line on the screen), it is redirected to the native OS (in this case OS X) to do instead. No windows XP licence required. But this type of API emulation is very difficult to do right, and compatibilty is not guarrenteed. If the application gets updated and uses a API call that is not in the emulator, it won't work.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

thatcomputerguy said:


> in a nutshell, Parrallels lets you running windows on a mac in an emulated environment. Crossover lets you run windows apps, without having to install windows.


Not quite. Virtual PC was a emulated environment. It pretended to be a x86 system while running on a PPC CPU. Parallels is a hypervisor that works with the existing x86 CPU to act like a machine with a split personality. Both OS's are running natively on the CPU with no emulation going on. It's just sharing duties between the two OS's. Big differences: 1) easier to do. 2) MUCH Faster.


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

Atroz said:


> Not quite. Virtual PC was a emulated environment. It pretended to be a x86 system while running on a PPC CPU. Parallels is a hypervisor that works with the existing x86 CPU to act like a machine with a split personality. Both OS's are running natively on the CPU with no emulation going on. It's just sharing duties between the two OS's. Big differences: 1) easier to do. 2) MUCH Faster.


OOPs i should have said virtualization instead of emulation. thanks Atroz.


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## AlephNull (Jan 28, 2005)

If anyone is wondering about gaming support in OS X through this CrossOver solution.. The only game I've actually tried to install with it is the original HalfLife.. and it runs full speed with full res. Set to OpenGL graphics mode. This is on a Blackbook with GMA950 graphics and Crossover Alpha 3.


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## teewee (Apr 30, 2006)

Atroz said:


> Not quite. Virtual PC was a emulated environment. It pretended to be a x86 system while running on a PPC CPU. Parallels is a hypervisor that works with the existing x86 CPU to act like a machine with a split personality. Both OS's are running natively on the CPU with no emulation going on. It's just sharing duties between the two OS's. Big differences: 1) easier to do. 2) MUCH Faster.


thanks for the replies guys, 

So while parallels still requires an install of windows and such (do you need to create a new NTFS partition or will HFS+ work?) it wil run very fast under osx? fast enough to run games on it? or will that be the duty of crossover?


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## kevs~just kevs (Mar 21, 2005)

Atroz said:


> Parallels is a hypervisor that works with the existing x86 CPU to act like a machine with a split personality. Both OS's are running natively on the CPU with no emulation going on. It's just sharing duties between the two OS's. Big differences: 1) easier to do. 2) MUCH Faster.



Ok, my ignorance can last no longer. Can someone send me a link that explains in simple terms what x86 is all about?  My only understanding is that it's something to do with running OSX on a PC, am I wrong?


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

kevs~just kevs said:


> Ok, my ignorance can last no longer. Can someone send me a link that explains in simple terms what x86 is all about?  My only understanding is that it's something to do with running OSX on a PC, am I wrong?


wikipedia is a great place to look up this info - just type in "hypervisor" and read all about it.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

teewee said:


> thanks for the replies guys,
> 
> So while parallels still requires an install of windows and such (do you need to create a new NTFS partition or will HFS+ work?) it wil run very fast under osx? fast enough to run games on it? or will that be the duty of crossover?


Parallels will set you up with a virtual disk. Basically it will be a windows formatted 'disk' to Windows, but will look like a big file to OS X. No changes required to the partitioning of the OS X disk. 

Parrallels doesn't yet support Direct 3D, so don't expect a lot of games to work. I believe that they plan on doing this later.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

kevs~just kevs said:


> Ok, my ignorance can last no longer. Can someone send me a link that explains in simple terms what x86 is all about?  My only understanding is that it's something to do with running OSX on a PC, am I wrong?


x86 refers to the instruction set of the most common CPU's made by Intel, AMD, etc. It comes from the old Intel chip names, starting with the 8086 CPU. Later generations were refered to as 286, 386, 486, etc. So, they were commonly referred to as x86 (x being a variable integer). 

Apple used to use the PowerPC (or PPC) chips which were very different from the Intel chips. When they switched to Intel, they started using chips that were x86 instruction set. This is why people were able to run OS X on a PC. The OS X had been ported (converted) to work on the same chips used by PC (Windows, etc) users. 

Oh, and here's a link. 

http://www.ehmac.ca/showthread.php?t=43744&page=3
;-)


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## Digital_Gary (Sep 18, 2003)

Just noticed that the public beta is now available for download.

http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/


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## simonca (Jul 27, 2005)

i am trying this on my macbook. MS Office works excellent. Also, Scientific Word. But I can never get Nero installed. Has anyone made a success? Thanks.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

A question: How do you install Windows software without Windows? What happens when the installer wants to write to the Registry and all that other fun stuff?


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## joyjoy (Mar 23, 2006)

*dvd copy*

Has anyone had any success getting a dvd/cd backup program to work with crossover? I haven't been able to successfully install any programs that require being able to recognize the cd/dvd drive


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## simonca (Jul 27, 2005)

joyjoy said:


> Has anyone had any success getting a dvd/cd backup program to work with crossover? I haven't been able to successfully install any programs that require being able to recognize the cd/dvd drive


I have tried to install Nero, but no luck. Guess it is not supported by crossover.


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## TrevX (May 10, 2005)

joyjoy said:


> Has anyone had any success getting a dvd/cd backup program to work with crossover? I haven't been able to successfully install any programs that require being able to recognize the cd/dvd drive


There are plenty of good Mac versions of DVD backup software. Try MacTheRipper and Popcorn for DVD backups. Toast will backup anything else, as will Disk Utility.

Trev


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

joyjoy - Why not use an OS X program like Retrospect or SuperDuper for backing up? Or are we talking about stolen software which isn't allowed on ehMac?


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## joyjoy (Mar 23, 2006)

No i was talking about making backups of purchased dvds. Before I switched to mac I used a dvd copy program called 1clickdvdcopy and I have yet to find a mac equivalent of the program in terms of quality and ease of use.


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## jdurston (Jan 28, 2005)

joyjoy said:


> No i was talking about making backups of purchased dvds. Before I switched to mac I used a dvd copy program called 1clickdvdcopy and I have yet to find a mac equivalent of the program in terms of quality and ease of use.


Mactheripper to copy an image of the DVD
Handbrake to create a MPEG4/H.264 version of the movie

I don't know of any "one click" solutions for the mac. Roxio's Toast suite comes with DVD compression


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## joyjoy (Mar 23, 2006)

Yeah I've used all those programs and the quality still hasn't matched the 1clickdvdcopy program. I guess I will have to wait until it is compatible with Crossover. Thanks though!


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