# Royal Bank Is Now The New Bell / Rogers!



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

I just received notice that the Royal Bank is eliminating my bank accounts. Their reason is that "the accounts listed above are being used by fewer and fewer clients." I, for one, hope that I am the ONLY client using my account - I do not operate a commune...

So I called them because in their letter they said that I could call them and they could 'implement your account preference over the phone." So I did that, and told them that my preference is to keep my existing Savings and Chequing accounts, accounts that I have had for thirty years. They said that I would not be able to keep them, they are eliminated. Then they proceeded to tell me that I can arrange an appointment so that I can remove my money from the bank, and that I am free to go elsewhere.

They did say that I can open some new account that carries a "$4 dollar service fee per transaction", and that the new account will be "non interest bearing". The other new account has a charge of $1.50 each "in branch", ie. using a teller to get a $100 out instead of the ATM. Oh, but I did miss this, I get one free withdraw per month if I put my paycheck in by automatic deposit (which my previous workplace did not have because there wasn't enough people).

It is funny that, considering what Bell did to my girlfriend just a few days ago, so I have spent a part of today tracking down information so that she can get a new ISP; and all of the complaints about Bell and Rogers with all of this throttled downloads and high speed internet services that are almost as slow as my $3 per month dial up (that is unlimited)... Now I have to deal with the Royal Bank!

This will involve going to another bank to set up a Savings and a Chequing account, as well as canceling my Visa card (which will cost me $17 to change my account with my ISP, among other things), transferring all of my automatic deposit and withdraw information for various things like my car payment, and all of the hassle of transferring my RSPs and investments... And I nearly forgot, I'll have to move my safe deposit box as well. Because really, I do not plan on having to go to multiple banks to do what, for thirty years now, I have been happy to do at one location.

Of course, this will end up being more difficult because the Royal Bank is the only one left in the neighbourhood!

Nuts! I am sure that the other banks are chiselers as well...


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Bizarre. What will Royal "Bank" be doing once they get out of the banking part of the business? Or is this like "Canadian Tire" where I can buy virtually anything, but tires are kept in the back? 

As for your financial move, my advice is to kiss ALL banks goodbye. Credit Unions are the only way to go. Ding-free, baby!*

*that's from an ad that might not be playing where you live, it occurs to me ...


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

You wouldn't even know that Canadian Tire sold tires, unless you skulk around the back corners (or at the store near here, down in the basement).

And it could very well be that RBC no longer wants people to save money or do business with them. My former boss was even forced to change last year because they did not want his business accounts any more, and he ended up going to TD. Which I thought was odd because the Royal was loosing a fair amount of change, mostly because his brother and brother in law are big contractors that moved a great deal of money out of the Royal because of what the bank had done with my boss.

I am going down to the local Credit Union to check them out tomorrow. However, I am a little concerned because they do not have Visa, and I'd prefer to move all of my banking to one place...


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## fozy (Jul 18, 2006)

I've been extremely happy with my President's Choice banking and credit card. No fees, higher interest rates, points that are actually useful. Something to consider.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

EvanPitts said:


> I am going down to the local Credit Union to check them out tomorrow. However, I am a little concerned because they do not have Visa, and I'd prefer to move all of my banking to one place...


I wholeheartedly endorse a move to your local Credit Union. One caveat, however: If you sign up for a Credit Union MasterCard, you can forget using it on vacation in Cuba.

CUETS, the financial body that issues MasterCard to Canada's Credit Unions, was purchased by a subsidiary of Bank of America in Oct. 2007. Under the U.S. embargo, no U.S. subsidiary of a U.S. corporation can have dealings with Cuba. (Can anyone say "What Canadian sovereignty?").

This is _in spite of an amendment_ to Canada's Foreign Extraterritorial Measures Act (FEMA) in 1996, which forbids subsidiaries of U.S. companies which operate on Canadian soil from abiding by the embargo. *To date, there have been zero prosecutions under FEMA.*


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

Besides Credit Unions, I highly recommend President's Choice Financial. I've been with them since they launched, and have absolutely no complaints. They really are a no fee banking service.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Evan, TD did something similar to me as well. I also had an arrangement with the local bank manager re fees, since I had my mortgage, checking, savings, RRSP and line of credit with TD. When she left, the new manager would not honor this agreement. I even had an account from 1977 that was numbered 000-001, to show how long I had been with TD. Nothing seemed to interest them, so I started to withdraw everything from TD to a welcoming CIBC.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Evan, that's terrible. I would suggest you send a letter to your the local paper, your MLA and MP, to tell them about this.
Odds are you aren't the only account closing down. It's amazing how bad publicity changes a corporation's way of thinking.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> Nothing seemed to interest them, so I started to withdraw everything from TD to a welcoming CIBC.


It seems to be a game of musical chairs. It is like it doesn't matter how many customers they actually have, it is about how many new customers they snag. It is like one place I worked at, where the boss was so terribly excited that the average purchase had gone up 16%, despite the fact that business on a whole had tumbled 25% from when he took over...

I checked a few web sites, and it was interesting. On the TD web site, on the first screen, right in the very center, without having to scroll or hunt, were the words: SAVINGS and CHEQUING. Right beside that is a link to arrange to transfer accounts out of other banks into theirs easily and without muss or fuss (or so they advertise).

On the FirstOntario CU, both Savings and Chequing accounts are prominent and easy to read. A few other Credit Unions had similar sites, and it was easy to find information on Savings and Chequing accounts. I was a little chagrined to find out that, at least with the ones I looked at, they did not have Visa.

But on the Royal Bank site, I dug around for fifteen minutes and was at least six layers deep into their web site before I found something called "Day By Day Savings", but it had no explanation that I could understand, and I couldn't find anything about chequing. So I tried to get into the Day By Day thing, but nothing happened because I had disabled pop-unders in Firefox. So I shut off adblock, and reloaded the page, and the pop-under was asking me all kinds of personal information that I was not going to give. All I wanted to do is find out what this account was about, I was a little creeped out by the rendering bugs, lack of real information, and the feeling that I was actually logged onto some spam site in Tajikistan. And I really wanted to know if it has anything to do with Godspell.

Then I decided to write to the bank, just so they know what a soon to be former client thinks about this letter. I had to dig around because they want to drag you through a process where you go to the local branch to resolve difficulties, then you are supposed to spend the better part of a week climbing the chain of command. Perhaps, if one is lucky, they can have a meeting with the Ombudsman in a few months, long after the money is in another institution.

So I finally got to the place where you can write them e-mail, and seriously, the edit screen is the size of a Post-It note, or a classified ad out of a newspaper. I think the address bar in Firefox is larger. And what is with that old school IBM Selectric font, or is it Remington or Smith-Corona?

I managed to hammer out a letter into the postage sized editing window, but I haven't received any response yet. Perhaps the poor sods are too busy listening to all of the complaints from all of the people who, on the same day as I, have received notice that their SAVINGS and CHEQUING accounts that are about to be exterminated.

And it goes to show that there are web sites that feature more rendering errors, worse design and worse usability than either Bell or Rogers cheesy and uninformative sites. Really, a web page should actually contain something informative, or barring that, at least try to amuse...


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

I endorse the Credit Union option. You can keep your Visa and just pay it via cheque. I've done this for years (have a CIBC Visa but haven't had a CIBC account for 20 years). I actually like to keep my VISA separate from my personal accounts separate from my business accounts. Stops them from 'helpfully' transferring money around.

I haven't banked with the Royal Bank in 20 years either, but that's a long story to do with having a business line of credit in Calgary with the Royal, and then when we moved to BC (where I was going to be running the exact same business) the Royal here refused to give me the same line of credit. So ... walked down the block to the Credit Union, where they were happy to have my business. Haven't darkened the doorway of a Royal since.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

MLeh said:


> I endorse the Credit Union option.


Many people I have talked to have endorsed the Credit Union. When I was a kid, I had my money in a Credit Union. My mom used to put all of the "baby bonus" cheques in, which gave me enough money for education, and really, I had that core of money until my lengthy layoff from work six years ago. (When I had to dip into it to pay rent.) Once I finish my coffee, I am heading over the the local CU to check them out.



> You can keep your Visa and just pay it via cheque.


I have liked the fact that, with everything in one place, it was pretty easy to pay the Visa at the same time I was getting money or putting a paycheque in. But even Visa has been annoying me of late, with all of the spam they are putting in my billing, and the fact that they keep cranking up my credit limit (which leads to the hassle of being on the phone for an hour or two in order to reduce it once again.) So loosing it wouldn't be so bad. But I was also told that since I am on layoff right now, I will not be able to get a new Visa card anyways, and if that is true, I have to decide whether to keep the old card, or just to get rid of it because really, I do not use it that much. It would affect my ISP connection, but I do not know what direction I am taking on that front either...)



> ...business line of credit in Calgary with the Royal, and then when we moved to BC... the Royal here refused to give me the same line of credit.


Makes me remember a few things from the past. When my parents bought the house many years ago, the Royal would not give them a mortgage because my mom worked part time (and hence had "inreliable" income), and they would not count my dad's commission income (which was 100% of his income). It did not matter that he was making $80,000/year in the day, and the mortage they were trying to get was $40,000 (on a $60,000 house, which really makes it "in the day", which was so long ago that I worked in the summer for $2, which was above the minimum wage).

Really, I will not miss them very much, espeecially since they remodelled the branch last year, so that the inside is this wonderful shade of "puke brown" and "vomit inducing" corporate blue. I think it has been in the works ever since they stopped being the Royal Bank, and became RBC Financial Grope...

Half inch of coffee to go...


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Several years ago I was attempting to phone one of the Big Boys just to get some basic information on different account possibilities. Landed in Telephone Hell and never did reach a real person.XX) That was all I needed to know about that bank. Imagine what trying to correct an account error would be like with that kind of customer service.    

Not quite sure what these guys are doing nowadays but clearly things like savings accounts and loans are pretty low on the priority list.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

I have returned from *Banking Hell*. I went to my local branch and lined up behind a few other people that obviously had received the same letter. I did not have to wait long, since the bank had one guy posted just to deal with these problems.

So first, he was trying to tell me that "they are just changing the name of the accounts". I told him that the note specifically stated that the accounts would be eliminated on May 1st, and that they would automatically replace them with an account that is "non-interest bearing" and has a $4 per transaction fee. I told him that I had called the number indicated on the letter, and that they girl at the other end was more than willing to arrange an appointment at the local branch so that I could take my money elsewhere.

I didn't stop either, you can't take prisoners with these people. So I said that if I can not have the Savings and Chequing accounts that I have had for the past thirty years, that I would be forced to deal with an institution that did. I thought he was a bit reluctant, so I told him that I would be heading over to the local CU, and that even the TD prominently displays the fact that they even have SAVINGS and CHEQUING accounts right in the middle of their web page. I think the CU thing pushed buttons, because he monkeyed around for a minute and said that since my account is grandfathered, the bank can not change it without making a cash settlement for breaking the terms of the accounts in question. So he filled out a form, sent it off, and voila - the accounts will be exactly the same as they have been for the past thirty years.

Not that I have given up on making the move to a Credit Union, but this way, at least I have some time to do a proper search, without having to deal with the $4 per transaction fees on a non-interest bearing account. So for anyone that receives this letter, you really do have to go to the branch and play hard ball, and not be afraid of making the move to another bank or CU.

So I do have to recant a bit, because unlike Bell who has never solved any of my billing and service problems over the years - at least the RBC Financial Grope do 
have people that, if you dig around and play hard ball, can actually do the right thing. And the interior of the branch is still the ugly vomit brown colour that makes me quite queasy...


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Landed in Telephone Hell and never did reach a real person.


One time I called Bell over a billing issue, and I spent probably an hour being put on hold by a variety of people in a variety of cities, until I finally got to someone that didn't have any answers...

Another time I called to get the line serviced, and they were quite confused because I wasn't calling from the phone I wanted serviced. The next day, they showed up at my parents house and couldn't find a problem. Of course, it was my phone that was having the problem, and I live in a different neighbourhood...

Then there was the time our phone went out at work, so I went over to the Horton's to call for service. They were confused about that, but once the tech showed up, he was doing all kinds of things up on the pole and in the office. He never noticed that the line was broken and hanging across our service van that he had parked beside...



> Not quite sure what these guys are doing nowadays but clearly things like savings accounts and loans are pretty low on the priority list.


Mostly they are lunching at the Druxy's in the basement, flirting with the secretaries, or planning to booze it up at an expensive bar. I think the atmosphere is pretty bad when the people in the local branches call the head office people "clueless idiots". The dude I talked to admitted that he does not even understand what is going on, and then he told me that he has a job interview at an investment house next week. The rats are fleeing the ship before the HMCS RBC Financial Grope goes down...


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> I told him that the note specifically stated that the accounts would be eliminated on May 1st, and that they would automatically replace them with an account that is "non-interest bearing" and has a $4 per transaction fee.


They messed up when they told you that. The basic accounts they offer do suck, but not quite *that* badly.

Go to rbcroyalbank.com, click Personal Banking. Click Accounts and Services. Click View All Accounts. (Direct link: View all Bank Accounts and Packages - RBC Royal Bank) 

Now check out "Day-to-Day Banking" and "Day-to-Day Savings".

The "Banking" account (which seems to be what they're saying instead of "chequing" now, probably because a lot of people don't use cheques anymore) has a $4 per *month* fee, which includes 15 debits and almost everything else à la carte, including paying your bills through a teller instead of using the ATM, phone or website ($1.50 a pop). They're supposed to refund monthly the fee if you also have an RRSP and a VISA card other than a basic no-fee one. I wouldn't count on them to do so without being asked. If I were you, though, I would ask them to waive the fee even if my VISA card is not technically one of the eligible ones.

"Day to Day Savings" is a raw deal, plain and simple. There's no monthly fee, but they'll ding you for just about everything ($1.50 for most things) and the interest rate is laughable. Seriously, 0.01% is just plain insulting. 

What's going on, IMO, is that they're trying to drive as many transactions as possible online. This started about 20 years ago when ATMs became really common. Want to pay a bill? It's free with an ATM, but with most accounts there's a fee to visit a teller, etc. In the end, it's all about cutting labour costs.

Right now, you can get a 3% savings account from Royal, but it's online-only. Otherwise you have to open an investment account or be a millionaire before you'll see any interest.

The account I have, Signature No-Limit Banking [which also used to have "chequing" in the name], costs $12/month (soon $14, IIRC) for a package that's almost but not quite truly unlimited. (And they've whittled away the free included services over the years, but not in a way that's affected me so far.) It's a good account if you write a lot of cheques, because there's no charge for the cheques themselves or for processing them.

I wouldn't touch either "Day to Day" account, personally. 

Anyway, good luck sorting it all out. I tend to assume that all banks are equally ****ty, but a credit union may turn out to be a better experience.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> They messed up when they told you that. The basic accounts they offer do suck, but not quite *that* badly.


The guy at the branch did say that the letter that was sent to account holders was very poorly worded, and quite misleading. Legally, the can only make such broad changes if the bank is being reorganized because of a merger, as it happened when Canada Trust users lost all of the benefits when they merged with TD. Another friend of mine received the same letter on Friday, and was quite up in arms. I told her just to go to the branch, and make sure to mention the magic word "Credit Union"




> Now check out "Day-to-Day Banking" and "Day-to-Day Savings".


I wouldn't even want someone that I really hated to be tortured by those accounts. They want to change wording, so be it, but don't have it affect the current base of customers. Though chequing has been on the wane, and I know I write less cheques now than I used to, they are still used and quite often required. For instance, my car payment must come out of a chequing account, they will not do it any other way, well, unless I do not want 1.9% financing. Rent has to be paid by cheque. The only other bill I have that needs a cheque is Bell Canada, since they closed their offices in Hamilton, which forces customers to mail in a cheque.



> They're supposed to refund monthly the fee if you also have an RRSP and a VISA card other than a basic no-fee one. I wouldn't count on them to do so without being asked. If I were you, though, I would ask them to waive the fee even if my VISA card is not technically one of the eligible ones.


That is what I found out, you really have to go into the local branch because their head office is pretty much entirely lame. They are always trying to take my Visa card away, because even though the card itself says "Visa" on it, it is actually a Chargex account that has been grandfathered. They hate that, though I really do not know the reason, except that if I get a new card, they can start ripping me off on service fees.



> Right now, you can get a 3% savings account from Royal, but it's online-only.


The only problem with the concept of "online accounts" is they are fake - I can not get money out of my computer. ATMs are fine, even though I usually find myself either stepping over the winos that are sleeping, or stuck behind someone doing all of the daily transactions for the World Bank...



> Anyway, good luck sorting it all out. I tend to assume that all banks are equally ****ty, but a credit union may turn out to be a better experience.


Going to the branch was instructive and was quite worthwhile. I doubt that I will remain at the Royal Bank because this incident started me thinking about all of their antics that they have heaped upon me over the years. Like when I bought cheques the last time. They didn't send the ones I ordered, the spaces are so small that I have trouble cramming the information into them, I am not impressed by the hot pink motif, and they do not fit into my chequebook very well. That is part of the reason why I stopped using cheques, just the embarrasment over the garbage they sent me. Not to mention that the date area still had the 19__, when it is clearly the 21st century now.

I do not think that in this day and age, with corporates going wild with the bad ideas and giving their customers the rip-offs, that a person can just think they will stick with what they are used to. One has to be prepared to make the changes. So if the RBC Financial Grope does not want to have Savings and Chequing accounts; I will go somewhere where they have them. It was curious that it was so hard to find information on the RBC web site (with it's rendering bugs, pop-unders and all), when it was so easy to find Savings and Chequing on TD, BMO, First Ontario, and about five other places I was checking out. Even when I was at groceries, PC Financial had lots of flyers on Savings and Chequing. It has never been easier to leave the environs on an abusive company; and if they continue, they will really have to dig around to search for new clients.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

EvanPitts said:


> ... It has never been easier to leave the environs on an abusive company; and if they continue, they will really have to dig around to search for new clients.


Guess that's why the big 5 want to merge and become: "Slimey One Bank".

The managers will of course be called SOBs.


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## medic03 (Aug 2, 2005)

Thanks EvanPitts for all the leg work you've done on this. I too got *the* letter this week and was planning a trip down to the branch next week. Now I have a little more info to throw back at them. I was also thinking that this might be the shove I need to open a President Choice Account.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: PC Financial*

A few people have mentioned it so far, so I can't let this go.

If you are in need of no frills banking, and a fairly simple service, than President's Choice Financial is perhaps the way to go. I've been with them since they launched, and I have yet to have an issue.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> Though chequing has been on the wane, and I know I write less cheques now than I used to, they are still used and quite often required. For instance, my car payment must come out of a chequing account, they will not do it any other way, well, unless I do not want 1.9% financing. Rent has to be paid by cheque. The only other bill I have that needs a cheque is Bell Canada, since they closed their offices in Hamilton, which forces customers to mail in a cheque.


In fairness, I don't think the change in terminology makes the so-called "Banking" account any less of a real chequing account for purposes such as car payments... or writing a regular old cheque. 



> That is what I found out, you really have to go into the local branch because their head office is pretty much entirely lame. They are always trying to take my Visa card away, because even though the card itself says "Visa" on it, it is actually a Chargex account that has been grandfathered. They hate that, though I really do not know the reason, except that if I get a new card, they can start ripping me off on service fees.


I don't know what the benefits of your current card are, but I can tell you there are plenty of no-fee cards out there...



> The only problem with the concept of "online accounts" is they are fake - I can not get money out of my computer. ATMs are fine, even though I usually find myself either stepping over the winos that are sleeping, or stuck behind someone doing all of the daily transactions for the World Bank...


The online savings account is not meant to be a primary account; you only use the ATM with your primary account. It's sort of the "MacBook Air" of bank accounts.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> In fairness, I don't think the change in terminology makes the so-called "Banking" account any less of a real chequing account for purposes such as car payments... or writing a regular old cheque.


Actually, even the guy at the bank admitted that they new "banking" account is quite a bit inferior to the "old style" accounts. Plus, every other bank and credit union I looked at not only offers chequing accounts, they are prominent in their advertising. Having also consulted with the underwriter for my car payment, they will not accept "banking" accounts, as the terms of the financing explicitly state that the funds must derive from a chequing account.

What I learned is you really can not just take their word that the new accounts are "the same" or "offer improved services that the majority of people want." You really have to go in, stick to your guns, and when they are faced with loosing accounts, they will "grandfather" everything, plus they will roll back service fees.

For example, because I have an RSP with the same bank, they are supposed to give you free transactions to service it - but you have to ask. Same with credit card payments - no service fees on the payment if you ask.

It is not a loosing situation at all. One can easily switch to another institution, and they know that. They also know that many people prefer to deal with one institution only, so if they close one account, they will close them all. Maybe some people will like the new Godspell accounts offered by RBC Financial Grope, just like some people will look forward to paying more for their internet in return for much less service.

Anyone who has received this letter really should head into their local branch (don't waste time with the clueless morons that answer the phones at the head office, because they are just a waste of time and will roil up the blood), and make it clear that you want the services that you already have - without change. This they will do. And if they don't, there are many other places that will be happy to handle your money. And the other places are like vultures and will do quite a number of things without muss or fuss. It was not that long ago that you could get a free iPod from TD if you converted...



> The online savings account is not meant to be a primary account; you only use the ATM with your primary account. It's sort of the "MacBook Air" of bank accounts.


For myself, I would be more enthusiastic once they have the technology to have your computer spit out money - because really, that is mostly what I use the ATM for. I used to go in to the bank to do everything else, but this changed when they fired all of the good clerks and replaced them with a crew of village idiots.

And I forgot, the other reason why I hate the Royal Bank is that they do not have penny wrappers anymore. This means that the $1.50 service fee for using the clerk is entirely worth it when I bring a bucket of pennies in.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> Actually, even the guy at the bank admitted that they new "banking" account is quite a bit inferior to the "old style" accounts. Plus, every other bank and credit union I looked at not only offers chequing accounts, they are prominent in their advertising. Having also consulted with the underwriter for my car payment, they will not accept "banking" accounts, as the terms of the financing explicitly state that the funds must derive from a chequing account.


OK, this must apply mainly to the "Day to Day" accounts. The account I have, "Signature No Limit Banking" is functionally identical to a chequing account, comes with cheques at no extra charge (not exactly "free" what with the monthly fee), and even shows up as "Chequing" in the online banking system and ATM interface.



> For example, because I have an RSP with the same bank, they are supposed to give you free transactions to service it - but you have to ask. Same with credit card payments - no service fees on the payment if you ask.


I've never had to pay any transaction fees on RRSP contributions or bill payments. 

But I do agree with your bigger point: a lot of fees and rules can be waived if you just ask. I just deposited three cheques, but instead of going to an ATM and having them slap an automatic hold on the funds, I went to a teller and asked her to waive the hold. And she did. (These were business cheques; I wouldn't bother asking for personal cheques.)



> For myself, I would be more enthusiastic once they have the technology to have your computer spit out money - because really, that is mostly what I use the ATM for.


All the so-called savings accounts are structured as places to park your money for relatively short times, not to do all your banking -- they always ding you if you withdraw cash from the ATM more than once or twice a month, and sometimes if you simply transfer funds out of the account into another one. (I'm guessing your grandfathered account isn't like this, which is why you're keen to keep it.) 

The difference with the online version is that they charge a much higher fee for using the ATM or going to a teller (i.e., it's emergency-only), but no fees at all to shuffle money in and out of the account as often as you like.

The only thing it really subtracts from a "regular" savings account is the ability to put money into it directly. That's something you have to do online after making the deposit to your main account.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Just an aside here. We discovered that some banks have special seniors accounts. Generally straight up chequing accounts, no fees, no interest. Interesting thing is that the age can vary from 60-65 and I believe one credit union we checked into was actually 55. The thing is they won't tell you, you have to ask.  

Is any one as disgusted as I am with having to make an appointment to do something simple like changing or adding to an RSP account?


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

eMacMan said:


> Is any one as disgusted as I am with having to make an appointment to do something simple like changing or adding to an RSP account?


I've done contributions online or by phone the last couple of years. There's no need for a face-to-face unless you have a whole stack of transactions to do, or are taking out an RRSP loan, etc.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> OK, this must apply mainly to the "Day to Day" accounts. The account I have, "Signature No Limit Banking" is functionally identical to a chequing account, comes with cheques at no extra charge (not exactly "free" what with the monthly fee), and even shows up as "Chequing" in the online banking system and ATM interface.


You have an old account that they have had for years, and I mean years because my grandfather had one, and he's been dead for seventeen years. The guy at the bank even told me that the Day By Day accounts were utter garbage. He also told me that he has a job interview with an investment house next week, so I guess he is as disgruntled as the customers that were lined up for the exact same reasons.



> I've never had to pay any transaction fees on RRSP contributions or bill payments.


Either you asked, or you had a disgruntled employee file the appropriate forms without you knowing. I just got back a chunk of change because they had been charging me for these services, when they should not have. I got an apology for their "mistake". I guess they know I am about one iota away from going elsewhere, considering the various abuses they have heaped upon me over the years. The more i think about it, the more it angers me. None of the "mistakes" would push me into leaving, but in summed up in total... If I ever has so many problems with a store or other business, I would have left long before the list of errors and mistakes became so deep.



> (I'm guessing your grandfathered account isn't like this, which is why you're keen to keep it.)


Exactly. It does not cost me anything to maintain the account, except if I withdraw money across the Interac. The bulk of my savings is invested, but the account serves to give me money quickly when I need it. When my account builds to a certain level, buy either another treasury bill, or roll it into a mutual fund.

What roiled me the most was the poorly worded letter, the very short time to consider the alternatives, the fact that they attempted to automatically convert my accounts without my approval, the fact that they attempted to foist their Day By Day cheesy Godspell accounts own my throat - all at the same time that I have been having troubles with Bell over my billing. It was just the wrong button for them to push.

First, they should give at least a three month warning for potential changes. Second, they should only make changes with my approval because we all know where unilateral changes lead to. Third, the new accounts that they propose should be as good as that they are replacing, because really, no one in their right mind wants to pay more cash for less service and less quality. Perhaps even more, they should have written a courteous letter, with proper grammar, and without the tone of attack they had. They sure roiled up a lot of people's blood, and they had quite the lineup today when I was at the bank updating my books.

I still do not like the whole online banking deal. If other people want it, then so be it, but if I can't get money out of my computer, or put a paycheque into my computer, it serves little or no purpose.

I also hate debit cards, because I always get stuck behind some freak that insists on doing all of their international banking and investments while I am standing behind them in line at the grocery store. Can't people just buy groceries at the grocery store anymore? Of course, I usually get stuck behind similar freaks that do not know how to use an ATM at the bank. They take hours, when all you can actually do is deposit money, withdraw money, transfer money, pay a bill and update a book. Really, sometimes the line up for the ATM is so long, with so many losers wasting time fooling with buttons, that it is much faster to go into the bank and use a teller... And that, even if their is a service charge for using a teller because for the fifty cents, it's not worth me going postal because of a half hour wait because of some clueless moron. We all know those people!


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Is any one as disgusted as I am with having to make an appointment to do something simple like changing or adding to an RSP account?


The few times I actually go into the bank to do such things, they always try to con me into the appointment game. Of course they are gullible and I always infer that if they are too busy, I can take my business elsewhere where they have time. And it works because the banks these days are like a rotating door, with a new Branch Manager every three months, and an entirely new staff twice a year.

I can see the need for appointments during the "RSP Season", since people leave everything to the very last moment, and get into a rush when they could just do such a thing whenever - even by phone or online. But it should not be required during Ordinary Time.

Another thing I learned about RSPs which may be of interest. Apparently the Bank Of Nova Scotia will demand probate in the event of death, even if the RSP or RIF account has a clearly indicated beneficiary, if the amount in the account is greater than $100,000. This means that the beneficiary will have to pay a lawyer about $1200 in fees to obtain probate even though there will not be any probate tax levied on the RSP or RIF. The advice that I obtained from my lawyer was that it would just be a costly and time consuming hassle to have more than $100,000 invested in the Bank of Nova Scotia. Bet that is great for the greed business...

Living proof that Banks are devolving to a lower level of life form, entirely without though process or brains!


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> You have an old account that they have had for years, and I mean years because my grandfather had one, and he's been dead for seventeen years.


I originally opened the account somewhere around 1990, maybe a bit later, when it was Royal Certified Service. Not 100% sure whether it ever had the word "chequing" in the name, but it was always sold as a premium chequing account. The reason I got it over regular chequing is that it had a large number of transactions for a set fee, and that was (and is) a convenience that I consider worth paying for rather than having to count transactions and worry about a-la-carte fees. Some years it almost paid for itself in waived money-order charges and travellers' cheque commissions.

It was renamed some time ago (I don't remember when), with no functional changes of any note. Possibly they dropped a free monthly certified cheque, which is not something I've ever needed. Over the years they've actually *added* some useful stuff, like three Interac fees waived per month. (You still pay the other institution's fee.)

According to the recent notice, the only changes to this account are: a fee increase and the addition of two free cross-border debits/month.

I'm reasonably satisfied with the Royal on the whole, but the big selling point is that their ATMs are more numerous than most other institutions' in my neck of the woods.

Anyway, I do agree the "Day to Day" accounts are very unappealing, especially the ridiculous "Savings." 



> Either you asked, or you had a disgruntled employee file the appropriate forms without you knowing.


My understanding is that if you're investing in the bank's own line of mutual funds (not necessarily very smart, but that's another thread), they make their money from MERs on the funds.


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

> Quote:Originally Posted by EvanPitts
> Actually, even the guy at the bank admitted that they new "banking" account is quite a bit inferior to the "old style" accounts. Plus, every other bank and credit union I looked at not only offers chequing accounts, they are prominent in their advertising. Having also consulted with the underwriter for my car payment, they will not accept "banking" accounts, as the terms of the financing explicitly state that the funds must derive from a chequing account.


I just don't get what the big "flap" is here... the "day to day banking" (chequing not saving) account was recommended for as it most closely fits what I'm using now... I'm not obligated to accept it. I thought it sounded reasonable to try it out, however after reading the MAJOR conflap here I phoned the Royal Bank to discuss my banking needs... exactly as I thought... the "day to day banking" account will most likely cover it. Any pre-arranged payments will go through as usual and yes I'll pay an extra fee for writing a cheque... but in my case... who cares? I write maybe 4 a year. Rarely need a teller... pay all my bills online... so? In any case if it comes to it the top account at $12 per month is $16 at the TD bank I'm told... I haven't checked but these things are easy to find out online.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> I originally opened the account somewhere around 1990, maybe a bit later, when it was Royal Certified Service. Not 100% sure whether it ever had the word "chequing" in the name, but it was always sold as a premium chequing account.


My parents had the same account, especially in the days when they were writing cheques for the mortgage and for the truck payment. It was a pretty good account, and I know that the name changed but the terms of service were pretty much the same.



> Possibly they dropped a free monthly certified cheque, which is not something I've ever needed.


They do not have cheque certification like they used to; and I recall one of my bosses actually complaining about it. I don't think the Banks changed that, I think it was the Federals monkeying with regulations.



> Anyway, I do agree the "Day to Day" accounts are very unappealing, especially the ridiculous "Savings."


And added to the unappealing nature is that they actually tried to take away all the good things I have with my current setup. I am sure that some people will get suckered in to the "non-interest bearing", perhaps thinking it is something good. Some people even think that it may be better to pay $5.50 to write one cheque, rather than the current 50 cents I pay.



> My understanding is that if you're investing in the bank's own line of mutual funds (not necessarily very smart, but that's another thread)


I picked a fund on my own, the bank did not even know that they carried it, and it was a bit of a hassle. Banks actually carry products that are external, part of their purchase of the various investment firms that gave them access to the markets in the first place, but most people do not do the footwork. But the fund has scored an excellent return - so excellent that they actually cut off the fund because it was making their own funds look bad. I would have been lucky to score perhaps a 6% return on their funds, while one of the ones I have has consistently been in the 12-14% bracket (though I did take a bit of a hit in the fall when the CIBC took a nose dive). Of course, that fund does require that the Bank Of Nova Scotia lead the pack in ripping off their customers...

If I had a larger pool of money initially, I could have went directly with a stock broker, but that carries risks that at the time I could not bear.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Dreambird said:


> I just don't get what the big "flap" is here... the "day to day banking" (chequing not saving) account was recommended for as it most closely fits what I'm using now.


That is what they "recommend", but if you read the terms of what they are offering, you will find that it is not even a quarter as good as what they had offered. I, for one, am not too happy to have to pay $5.50 to write the one cheque per month I am obliged to write, and I am not to happy with the fact that it would cost $3 per month to deposit my paycheques into the account. That is a cool $8.50 that they can pocket - on a "non-interest bearing" account. To put it into perspective, that is almost an hour of labour with our new minimal wage in Ontario.

Phoning them does no good because they are just parroting a script off of their computer terminal. If the Day By Day ripoff is to your linking, then use it. But I strongly suggest going into the branch and not backing down. It will, in the end, save you a fair amount of cash that they would otherwise skim off of your account.



> Any pre-arranged payments will go through as usual


Unless the terms of financing explicitly state that the money must come out of a chequing account, and this applies to pretty much all automotive financing. They will not accept the new "account" because it is not a chequing account.



> In any case if it comes to it the top account at $12 per month is $16 at the TD bank I'm told.


The TD has a different setup, and if you have more than $3000 in the account, they waive the service fees. Plus, for the $12, you do actually get free transactions; something that you can not get from RBC, unless you have automatic payroll deposit, of which they allow you to have one free withdraw per month (or two per month if the pay is biweekly). Not that the TD is the poster child for ethical corporate practice, but I will say that their web site has actual information, and right on their main page, they have pointers to both Savings and Chequing accounts, something that RBC is getting out of.

If you are happy with the corporate ripoffs that go on, then that is fine. I do not subscribe to those things that they do unilaterally, with last minute notice, and I really get offended when they keep wanting to foist these "special plans" upon me when I do not want them. The letter they sent was a piece of tripe, poorly written and even more poorly planned. I am sure that the competition is reveling in it, gearing up to have many more clients that want savings and chequing accounts.

Just because I was able to obtain what I wanted, that is, the status quo, that does not mean that they are off the hook by any stretch of the imagination. I would certainly doubt that I will continue banking there, especially if they make one more mistake, which will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> Plus, for the $12, you do actually get free transactions; something that you can not get from RBC, unless you have automatic payroll deposit, of which they allow you to have one free withdraw per month (or two per month if the pay is biweekly).


That's just not true.

Signature No Limit (currently $12, so I guess that's what you mean) includes unlimited debits for the flat fee. Payroll doesn't enter into it in any way.

What you're describing sounds like the $4/month account (15 debits + 1 payroll). I couldn't find a reference to the $5/cheque or $3/deposit fees on that account, but I'm skeptical. Link?


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> Signature No Limit (currently $12, so I guess that's what you mean)


I was talking about the deal they have at the TD, so sorry if I was not clear on that point.



> Payroll doesn't enter into it in any way.


It actually does, since it is the law that the bank allows one free transaction per automatic payroll deposit.



> What you're describing sounds like the $4/month account (15 debits + 1 payroll). I couldn't find a reference to the $5/cheque or $3/deposit fees on that account, but I'm skeptical. Link?


It was noted on the letter sent to me by the bank. Let me look for it... For the Godspell Savings garbage, you get one free transaction per month, plus $1 per transaction with an additional charge of $1.50 per transaction if I use a teller. For Godspell Banking, a "non interest bearing account", the first transaction is $4, with additional charges of 50 cents per transaction, $1 per cheque, and an additional charge of $4 for any month when there are more than 15 transactions.

This is much different from my current accounts, where the service charges are only for the use of the Interac system ($1 per withdraw, no charge for deposits, or for transactions done on RBC machines or in my own bank), and 50 cents per cheque. I also do not pay any charges for making payments for my Visa, nor do I pay for deposits into my RSP.

And if a person does not actually go in and tell them, they will levy transaction charges for these "services". They will then remove these charges to promote harmony with the client! Also, the local branch told me that the terms posted on the web site are actually in error, so somewhere I have a pamphlet that attempts to explain while obfuscating the facts.

It is getting so bad that I can see myself investing in a shoe box, and I'll just keep my money in it under the bed, like in the old days...


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## esct (Feb 20, 2008)

Bah, thats funny. As a client, you've just been fired.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> It actually does, since it is the law that the bank allows one free transaction per automatic payroll deposit.


Makes no difference if you're talking about an account that's truly unlimited.




> It was noted on the letter sent to me by the bank. _(snip)_ For Godspell Banking, a "non interest bearing account", the first transaction is $4, with additional charges of 50 cents per transaction, $1 per cheque, and an additional charge of $4 for any month when there are more than 15 transactions.



Then that letter is really, really messed up (but I guess we already knew that), because that's not what it says on their website.

$4 is supposed to get you 15 transactions at no additional charge + 1 per direct payroll deposit. The 50 cents/transaction is supposed to kick in after you use up your 15+.

RBC Day to Day Banking - RBC Royal Bank

...and they don't spell out the costs of chequing (either ordering or processing cheques), which is just dumb.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

That sounds like an awful lot of monthly charges for doing your banking.

Perhaps my banking needs are less sophisticated, but I have only ever paid a fee at one of of those independent stand-alone ATMs. Otherwise, when writing cheques, banking online, or at an ATM, I have yet to pay a fee. My payroll is deposited directly, I get free cheques whenever I am close to running out (and the are re-ordered automatically), I have automatic deductions for RRSP's and automatic deductions for a employee stock purchase plan with my employer. I don't pay any monthly or yearly fees at all. I don't even have a fee for my MasterCard.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Personally I have avoided the debit cards. I also pay no fees and write several cheques a month. If it takes changing banks do it!


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Just to return to the topic of the strange things happening at the Royal Bank...

I finally received a reply to the e-mail I sent them over a month ago. I guess they had a lot of e-mail to deal with. The note was quite patronizing and offensive, and has completely turned me off of the fake bank account schemes they have cooked up. I don't want cheap Godspell accounts, just the regular Savings and Chequing accounts that I have always had. I sent copies of that e-mail to the various administrators. Crazy thing is that the e-mail reply also had a Windoze virus attached (lucky I run a Mac!).

When I was out yesterday, I received a call from the Royal Bank, though they did not reveal the mysteries of why they were calling. I would make the assumption that it has something to do with my bank accounts - and that they decided to convert my accounts, despite the fact that last month I refused to make any changes. So I will have to wait until the morning to call them.

Perhaps after calling them and finding that my level of annoyance is significantly elevated, I will proceed to the local Credit Union and complete the task at hand. I now know of about a dozen people that have packed it in with the losers at the RBC Financial Grope, and unless this call is about something trivial, I'll be all about moving everything, lock, stock and barrel. But perhaps I should not jump to conclusions too quickly...


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I would encourage you to transfer your money to a Credit Union forthwith.

I really can't understand why people put up with the behaviour of banks such as have been detailed in this thread.

I personally would never use a bank again. If Credit Unions cease to exist, I'd sooner put all my money into apple stock and sell as needed. Come to think of it, I'd do a lot better under that scheme, even with broker fees!


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Banks *are* just like major service providers such as Bell and Rogers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's the new business model:

*The longer you stay with the same company the more you end up paying.*

Besides all the switching benefits you miss out on (six months of no interest here, increase the service charges there) you will continue to see increased costs that news business are unlikely to charge to attract customers. Most of these places will at best allow you to stay on the same plan you are on for a while, but you can't ever switch out of it. That includes being forced to close your account due to a problem or a scam. I was at the blunt end of this one, I had to open a new account after investigate fraud on my old one and the company took away every benefit I had with the account which had been added over the years. There was every excuse in the world, and when it came down to it I was just another number.

I know few companies who reward you for staying long term, except credit card companies which offer you the occasional milkbone when you are in serious amounts of debt and still pay it off regularly.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

The wrangling continues, just to update the antics of the RBC Financial Grope.

Two weeks ago the bank called me and said that they had to discuss something of great importance. They left a phone number on my answering machine. So the next day, I was home to do a few things, so I tried to call the number they gave me a number of times. It kept dumping me to some voice mailbox junk. If it was so important, then I think there should be someone answering the phone on their end. And if they are busy, they could extend the courtesy of a busy tone - at least I would know someone is there working.

So the following day (last Friday to be exact), I dropped into the bank. The receptionist was just getting back to her desk with a mouth stuffed with food. Then she said her computer crashed, so I had to wait for th whole Windoze XP special reboot from BSOD deal that we are all familiar with. (Can't they just have a Sleep mode, like Macs have, without the whole five minute boot up sequence?) This was followed by a number of attempts at getting the software to run, and a further number of attempts at spelling my nave correctly.

Once this was done, I was informed that I would have to make a special appointment by phone to find out what the important message was. Of course, the one that called me was sitting in her office doing nothing, I could see that right through the glass, but it was all about having to go home and call a special number to set up a special appointment. What was stupid was, even if the lady was possibly busy, the least they could do is make an appointment for me while I was there, without the special call.

So I went home, and called the special number. Once again, a different voice mailbox where I would have to make a special appointment to make an appointment with the first voice mailbox to find out what the super important message from my bank was in the first place. Nuts! And because I had no idea what my schedule was for the following weeks, I wouldn't even be able to make a special appointment; though I may be able to drop into the local branch in the course of my day.

I ended up strolling down to the local Credit Union, where I waited less than two minutes to take to a Banking Consultant, who clearly explained the entire agenda of the Credit Union movement. They would have had me set up within an hour, if I was ready. They have been more than excellent in answering my questions, and they actually have real people as staff in their institution. So once I find out what this super important message actually was about, I will be closing down my bank accounts and going to a Credit Union.

The final straw, of course, was probably the virus they sent to me as an e-mail attachment, from their corporate head office. I guess they did not like my complaints!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

EvanPitts said:


> The final straw, of course, was probably the virus they sent to me as an e-mail attachment, from their corporate head office. I guess they did not like my complaints!


Once you get your accounts out of RBC you might do them the courtesy of returning the viral attachment to head office.beejacon


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I do hate the crap about arranging an appointment.tptptptp Usually they are pimping something that gives them a hefty commission:greedy: :greedy: but does nothing at all for my financial well being.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

I breathe life into an oldie but a goodie. I shall now continue with scribblings of the annals of the RBC Financial Grope.

Since I last posted, I had a flurry of activity when it came to my banking, but I became sidetracked with other, more urgent items, including returning to school this fall. And things had been quiet, but I ran out of cheques this week, which precipitated a return to my local branch.

Entering the local branch, after being once again renovated, I was simply in awe of the wonderful shade of puke beige juxtaposed to the strange mottled blue trimwork. I was also in awe of the clerks, who were even more pathetic, unmotivated, and unskilled than my last trip in.

So I wanted to order cheques, which was always a fairly simple process. In the "old days", they would bring a chart over and the client would select from the offerings. Then through an amazing process, the client would receive new cheques within a few days.

These days, the clerk has to get another clerk, then they have to shuffle through a bunch of papers. Then they do not carry the cheques that I have long used - they couldn't even figure out what I wanted. So I ended up being stiffed with whatever junk they were flogging. The benefit, of course, is the new cheques do not come with any stubs - so I will have no record of what cheques I have written.

Then they told me that the cheques were $28 for 50 of them! Next to the highway robbery that took place, I really started to regret not having moved my money, because the branch looked like a vomitorium, with unmotivated workers that dished out attitude like there was no tomorrow. Really, the clerk though I was a freak for wanting cheques because, you know, no one has to pay rent anymore!

So if I wasn't quite so busy with school, I'd be shopping around for a Credit Union because in April, I thought I was getting bad service, but that was platinum in comparison to what I got today.

$28 for 50 cheques - what, are they hand carved out of rich, Corinthian leather or something?


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

RBC are pricks plain and simple. I'd work for M$ before I'd work at RBC. 

Anyone here work for RBC? Hope not.... beejacon


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Guess I'm just lucky.

A few months ago I switched accounts from Signature No Limit to Day-to-Day. The rep advised me to switch my plain-vanilla no-fee Visa card to a Rewards Visa (no-fee version), wiping out the $4/month account fee.

Since then I've slowly reverted to my old habits from the No Limit days, but have yet to rack up more than $7/month in fees.

One thing I regret: not stocking up on cheques before making the switch. They're included with the No Limit account, not with Day-to-Day. Ordered them online in about 5 minutes. Yes, it was about $28/50, and that's for the cheapest option. So I ordered 100 instead, for $36. 36 cents/cheque is not a whole lot -- about the price of a cup of coffee in a typical month.


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

RBC has treated me wonderfully since moving from TD about 11 years ago. Of course, it's all about the branch/manager. RBC's online banking system should be the model upon which all others are developed.


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

> RBC has treated me wonderfully since moving from TD about 11 years ago. Of course, it's all about the branch/manager. RBC's online banking system should be the model upon which all others are developed.


Eeeiwww eeeeiwww puke and more puke, geezus. I'm gonna be sick... XX) 

The words Royal Bank and wonderfully, wonderful or anything else that sounds remotely pleasant should never be used in the same sentence. Words like, horrid, scum, vile and the like are fine and should be encouraged whenever possible. :lmao:


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I agree that a branch manager can make a world of difference. At my local TD/Canada Trust, they try to hold any cheques I bring in for up to 5 working days--even those drawn on accounts IN THEIR OWN BANK! Each time they tell me they haven't seen seen these cheques before, so they're suspicious. If I go to the next nearest branch of the same bank, everything is cashed, no question.


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

> At my local TD/Canada Trust, they try to hold any cheques I bring in for up to 5 working days--even those drawn on accounts IN THEIR OWN BANK! Each time they tell me they haven't seen seen these cheques before, so they're suspicious. If I go to the next nearest branch of the same bank, everything is cashed, no question.


That's probably because the other bank knows they aren't supposed to be doing what your main branch is doing. Whether your branch has seen the checks before or not, it's not up to them to make the assumption the check is 'suspicious' and hold it on you. Banks are supposed to assume the check is good and written in good faith. Only if there's been a problem and is a problem with checks from a particular customer are they supposed do things like that. I had this problem with a CIBC branch, the manager was nearly fired when all was said and done for administering his 'own' polices. He was interfering with my abilities to conduct business. Bank personnel often think they have more authority than they actually do in these matters.

As an experiment I took a check to my bank, it was written out to my friend, I scratched out his name and put my name in. The teller deposited it no problem, as she should have.  

Of course at RBC they probably would have lit the check on fire and had me arrested for trying to launder terrorist funds...beejacon


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

absolutetotalgeek said:


> Eeeiwww eeeeiwww puke and more puke, geezus. I'm gonna be sick... XX)
> 
> The words Royal Bank and wonderfully, wonderful or anything else that sounds remotely pleasant should never be used in the same sentence. Words like, horrid, scum, vile and the like are fine and should be encouraged whenever possible. :lmao:


YMMV.

I've only ever had one or two small problems with the Royal in the last 25 years.

Obviously, nobody likes to be treated like dirt. 

But don't assume that because you've had bad experiences, everyone gets the same.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I agree that a branch manager can make a world of difference. At my local TD/Canada Trust, they try to hold any cheques I bring in for up to 5 working days--even those drawn on accounts IN THEIR OWN BANK! Each time they tell me they haven't seen seen these cheques before, so they're suspicious. If I go to the next nearest branch of the same bank, everything is cashed, no question.


At some point, you've almost certainly signed on the dotted line under fine print that specifies an outrageous hold policy. 

Some employees will stick to it rigidly, but in my experience, simply asking the teller to remove the hold on the deposit results in the teller going to a manager for approval, and it's done. 

And this is never even at my own branch, nor as far as I know approved by the top person at the branch. It's always someone who works in a cubicle within view behind the wickets -- hardly branch manager's quarters. More likely a senior teller.

Damned RBC and their customer service.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I signed with Canada Trust, which was fine. The TD merger changed all that. At the crap branch, even the manager refuses to approve the cheques issued by clients of TD.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Banks are just a big pain these days. I have had a long set of annoyances with the bank, but never enough to make the change. But when I think about it, I should have packed it in years ago, except for the fact that it is the only bank left in my neighbourhood.

In the spring, they sent me some BS about abolishing my bank accounts - so I nipped that in the bud. My banking is fairly simple, based on a Savings account and a Chequing account. There was no way that I was going to surrender my bank accounts in exchange for some day by day Godspell account garbage. They said that "oh, you can still write cheques on the it's not a chequing account..." I made sure to get a guarantee, in writing, that they would not alter the accounts that I have had for over twenty-five years.

I am pretty angry that I could not order the cheques that I use, coupled with the vomit coloured interior of the branch and the crummy, clueless clerks. It's not like the old days, when the clerks knew what they were doing (mostly), and the banks had all of the services that I needed.

Of course, they sent me propaganda again, where they want to once again hijack my credit card for some new crud. I don't even like the "Visa" I have now - it is total rubbish compared to the Chargex that I used to have years ago. Chargex entirely ruled, and I guess the banks had to get rid of it because it was too good.

I did research a move to a Credit Union, and they did have a pretty good scheme; but they do not have Visa - so I'd be without a credit card (they don't have Chargex anymore), and MasterCard is the worst crud imaginable. One time we went on a trip, and MasterCard cut the card off because we were "outside our radius" and "hadn't supplicated outselves to their head honcho to seek permission to travel to Nova Scotia".

Even if I wanted to transfer to the Credit Union, I can't right now because I am back in school, and it would be one feat of paperwork to change everything for my retraining payments. And I wouldn't want a MasterCard because, who knows, maybe I would choose to go to Toronto to buy something, only to have the card cut off because I was outside my allowable radius of operation. Plus, while I am at school and not working, I can't get a Credit Card anyways.

My letters to the honchos of the RBC Financial Grope were replied to with the appropriate form letter propaganda about "improved services". Well, for one thing, paint the branch with some colour that doesn't immediately make me puke. Then hire some staff with personalities, bring back the big chart of cheques to select from, and please - STOP IMPROVING YOUR SERVICE - it can't get any worse...


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

The other day I was in our local branch of the Bank of Montreal. A young man walked in, and walked up to the teller and said "I have a problem. My wallet got stolen. I need to cancel all my cards and get new ones. The only ID I have left is my passport."

The teller who was helping him said "Your only ID is your passport and the fact that we all _know who you are_." They canceled all his cards and had him set up with new ones in less time than it took for me to get my bank draft. 

Just thought I'd share a good story.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Four years ago, I lost my wallet while on vacation in Osoyoos, BC. I walked into the CIBC branch there and explained my predicament. They cancelled my VISA and debit card immediately. 

They then asked if I had internet banking, which I did. They took me to a computer and asked me to log in. I did and they took my personal banker's phone number, called her and replaced by debit card on the spot. 

I told them I was leaving the next morning for Penticton. They gave me a branch address in Penticton and asked me to stop there on arrival. I did and they handed me a new VISA couriered overnight from Vancouver.

Not all banks are bad.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

SINC said:


> Not all banks are bad.


Yeah, just the bank I am at and Washington Mutual...


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Looks like most (maybe all) banks and a lot of other institutions offer exactly the same cheques: Davis+Henderson - Canadian supplier of business forms and personal cheques

Sometimes they're included in the price of the account, sometimes not. It's very easy to order online, so personally I don't find it surprising that they're making it a chore to do it in person. They don't want to use resources on transactions easily done electronically.



EvanPitts said:


> I don't even like the "Visa" I have now - it is total rubbish compared to the Chargex that I used to have years ago. Chargex entirely ruled, and I guess the banks had to get rid of it because it was too good.


No, Chargex was the Canadian arm of what became Visa International. It's just a name change (which happened about 30 years ago).

It makes no difference what brand is on the card, credit cards have always been issued on this basis: "These are the (updated) terms. If you don't like 'em, close the account. Period. Also, if we feel like it we can lower your limit and/or demand payment in full at any time." 

Even if they obliged you and kept using the Chargex name, you'd still either have to accept any and all new terms or give up the card.


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## arminia (Jan 27, 2005)

I deal with a credit union but I have a Visa card. It's very simple to pay the Visa bill with their online banking. A few years ago they wanted to bring in a new fee. After many people complained they dropped the idea. Something which would never happen at a bank. Last time I ordered cheques they were about $15 for 200.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

I got my cheques today, and I was fairly disappointed. I couldn't get the proper cheques I wanted. These ones had the oddest date box on it - I can't enter the month - I now have to put in the number of the month. They didn't ship it with the little book that you put in all the information into to balance the books out and track payments. And even worse, they shipped it in some crummy envelope, instead of a decent box, so they are crinkled down the middle.

But these are small concerns, since I only write cheques for my rent, and an occasional one for my phone.

As for Chargex vs. Visa - for me, Chargex was far superior, better service overall, recognized everywhere, and they never fouled anything up. Visa, well, not as good (but much better than MasterCrud), fairly poor customer service, and is a shadow of the qualities and prestige of Chargex. Plus, Visa is always trying to shaft the clients with all of these fancy garbage gold, platinum, triple platinum, infinite, and whatever schemes - all geared to rip of the clients. But at least it works.

Now they are going to try to pawn off the inferior Mondex technology - saying it is "more secure" because it has some kind of "chip" built in, even though the Mondex scheme was thoroughly hacked in Europe over ten years ago. I can't see how a "chip" will be durable sitting in my wallet for any number of years; but then, I thought that no bank would ever get rid of chequing and savings accounts - like the RBC Financial Grope managed to do in the spring...


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