# Will New Orleans survive as a city



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's a monstrous problem they face given the physical problems of being below sea level.

Poll just inviting comments and discussion.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Having been to NO five times, I would certainly hope that it survives as a viable city. However, once the levees are solidified once again, getting the water out of this city will be difficult and getting the infrastructure back in a monumental task. Thus, I truly cannot say if NO will survive.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I would say it will survive-although there is a lot of work ahead. It will be difficult but it will happen. 

P.S. there is still no poll-12 minutes later


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

I did a year of research on the Gulf Coast in college over the course of two senior environmental geology courses and I would say no, it is just a war of redemption through escalation. It can't be won, sqeeze the baloon at one end and it inflates the other. 

For example, the flood control used to protect New Orleans from the Mississippi River is destroying the wetlands, the mitigation to the destruction of the wetlands is harming the commercial fishery and causing an explosion of muscles.

Even if they did rebuild, it would just be a matter of time before this happens again.

Ignoring the physical damage for a second, consider the environmental damage, New Orleans metro is home to 100's of petro-chemical facilities, the amount of hazardous waste released into the community could make people ill for decades or more to come.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

I feel the same way as Trevor. This has been a know problem for decades and many turned a blind eye to it. 

I think they will rebuild and ignore what contributed to the problems in the first place.


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

The French knew about the problem within months of their arrival in the early 1700's, man has been fighting the Mississippi and Gulf for nearly 300 years.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

How many times can it happen before they can't fix the problem? I wonder what they would do with all the people who have no where to go. Hopefully people have insurance, I have heard of many people who can't afford it and don't get it.  I remember shearing on the news that someone in Brampton's house burnt down and they had no insurance becuase they couldn't afford it. I would imagine it is a greater problem in the States.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Clockwork said:


> I wonder what they would do with all the people who have no where to go..


Many are going to Texas (Dallas), there is a stadium there and the Governor of that state is already preparing Schools for the influx of students...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Trevor... said:


> The French knew about the problem within months of their arrival in the early 1700's, man has been fighting the Mississippi and Gulf for nearly 300 years.


While reading The French Quarter: An Informal History of the New Orleans Underworld, Herbert Asbury goes into great detail about the problems that French faced in New Orleans. The focus of the book is not on this particular problem but does expose many of the problems....


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

I am really starting to wonder just how out of touch Bush really is... worst natural disaster in American history and he is giving a stump speech about going on the offensive in Iraq in California.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

AS, they are headed for the old AstroDome in Houston.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Trevor, I thought he was headed back to Washington, DC, cutting short his vacation on his ranch, and leaving behind the peace vigil outside his ranch. Not even Bush is stupid enough to try and get Americans focused on Iraq when there are Americans in distress in the Gulf Coast.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> Trevor, I thought he was headed back to Washington, DC, cutting short his vacation on his ranch, and leaving behind the peace vigil outside his ranch. Not even Bush is stupid enough to try and get Americans focused on Iraq when there are Americans in distress in the Gulf Coast.


Well given that GW Bush takes vacations that are the envy of most Europeans, I'm surprised he did not leave sooner. Let's see how the president handles a domestic crisis.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

AS, I think that he is relieved to leave the peace camp behind him, in that this will be an issue that dogs him and the Republican party. Still, the situation in the Gulf Coast needs the support of everyone in the US just now.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I was thinking a little further down the road in the long term. Where would they go if they decided to leave the land the way it is? I wonder how the government would help them. They would have so many people heading north or south, to overcrowded cities.


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

The US government has condemned and relocated entire towns before, but nothing the size of New Orleans.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

What happens to the people though? Some cities are far more expensive to live in and what about there jobs? Do they just get thrown to the wolfs. I know social securtiy is very poor there so I doubt they will do much for the poor families.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

As strong as the spirit of the New Orleans people is, they have suffered a terrible trajedy, and pumping out all of that water, could alone take 6 months. It just isn't physically possible to rebuild that large city in even less than a year. This could and will take many years to recover from.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

There's no doubt that the city will survive, but it's hard to say to what extent the city will be rebuilt. Look at downtown Detroit, it's still a ghosttown 40 years after the riots that made it so uninhabitable (among other factors). How many people are fed up and are just going to pick up what little they have left and leave? How many businesses are going to cut their losses and set up shop elsewhere? Will the tourists come back?

Only time will tell.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

I can see it now...
New "and Improved" Orleans (Now with 95% less moisture)

They will rebuild. The levees will be done right. Apparently the French Quarter is a bit wet, but will be okay. Not nearly as bad as other areas, as they are 5ft above sea level. The largescale economic devestation has to hurt the most though. New Orleans will never be the same.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

No, it won't ever be the same. I can't even begin to imagine how long it is going to take for them to be able to return to "normal".


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

The city will rebuild and be fine. Just wait -- in a few weeks the tourists will be trickling back. It's a tremendous tourist draw, probably the biggest source of income for the whole state of Louisiana.

My mother went to N'awlins a few years ago, and said it was a truly great place. Terrific music, food and things to see. They'll be back.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

I suppose they will rebuild, and using our subsidized softwood lumber to boot...but I suggest they wait for hurricane season to end, because that area could get hit again this year, which is shaping up to be particularly bad. No mardi gras this year, that is for sure...

Mel


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> Just wait -- in a few weeks the tourists will be trickling back.


I think it will be quite a bit longer than a few weeks, MissGulch. Have you not seen images of the total devastation on the news/internet? This is not small task to rebuild.

Mel


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Melonie said:


> I think it will be quite a bit longer than a few weeks, MissGulch. Have you not seen images of the total devastation on the news/internet? This is not small task to rebuild.
> 
> Mel


The tourists came trickling back in a few weeks after the tsunami hit in Asia. We have to wait and see, but I think so.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

just seeing that video of the helicopter fly-by of the destroyed i-10 heading toward mississippi, i can't imagine how long it will take to re-build. that causeway alone must have taken years to build. it's approx. 10km long!

even if the city did rebound, the housing of its residents is going to be the biggest issue. once a home has been underwater for so long (estimates are weeks to months), it will be completely inhabitable. that means all new housing for just about everyone who lives there. also, many homes seem to have been floated off of their foundations, so again, new homes will be required. will they build on the same land again, hoping that another hurricane spares them?

my guess: the city will be re-built with federal disaster relief money, somewhere above sea-level (perhaps north of lake pontchartrain), sparking an economic mini-boom, providing jobs, and providing much-needed income for industry, especially construction and oil. "old new orleans" will be turned into a theme park glorifying its history, french quarter charm, and voodoo mystery.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> The city will rebuild and be fine. Just wait -- in a few weeks the tourists will be trickling back. It's a tremendous tourist draw, probably the biggest source of income for the whole state of Louisiana.
> 
> My mother went to N'awlins a few years ago, and said it was a truly great place. Terrific music, food and things to see. They'll be back.


It'll definately without a doubt be longer than a few weeks. A few months... if they're lucky.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

miguelsanchez said:


> just seeing that video of the helicopter fly-by of the destroyed i-10 heading toward mississippi, i can't imagine how long it will take to re-build. that causeway alone must have taken years to build. it's approx. 10km long!
> 
> even if the city did rebound, the housing of its residents is going to be the biggest issue. once a home has been underwater for so long (estimates are weeks to months), it will be completely inhabitable. that means all new housing for just about everyone who lives there. also, many homes seem to have been floated off of their foundations, so again, new homes will be required. will they build on the same land again, hoping that another hurricane spares them?
> 
> my guess: the city will be re-built with federal disaster relief money, somewhere above sea-level (perhaps north of lake pontchartrain), sparking an economic mini-boom, providing jobs, and providing much-needed income for industry, especially construction and oil. "old new orleans" will be turned into a theme park glorifying its history, french quarter charm, and voodoo mystery.


They'll have to most definately look into improving the Levee system aswell. People are always going to live near the water, so we can expect some to at least re locate in the "Old New Orleans".


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

*Will New Orleans survive as a city?*

"Will New Orleans survive as a city"?

WTF? No offense but that has to be one of the most patently *ridiculous* questions I've ever heard on this or any other board.

What do you expect - they'll simply shutter everything and move to Houston? That people who live there will throw up their hands and go to Biloxi?

Even *asking* the question shows a fundamental misunderstanding of America and Americans.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> "Will New Orleans survive as a city"?
> 
> WTF? No offense but that has to be one of the most patently *ridiculous* questions I've ever heard on this or any other board.
> 
> ...


But of course! Very wise words from Shawn. They'll be playing Dixieland music from the rooftops next week.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> They'll be playing Dixieland music from the rooftops next week.


"Next week"? Naw.....Nawlin's will be partying, as always, this weekend.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> "Next week"? Naw.....Nawlin's will be partying, as always, this weekend.


A funeral's is just an excuse for a party in N'awlins, so party time starts today in the rowboat. Break out your trombone and voodoo hooch. The fun starts now.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

I think the question is more like 'will the insurance industry allow the rebuilding'..

Building on a flood plane should be outlawed. 

The ground there is going to be toxic for years to come - the 'water' is a soup of deisel, gas, sewage and chemicals (next thing will be hungry 'gators...) that is saturating the ground and buildings.

Shoot the looters........


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## funkdoobi (Dec 21, 2004)

the city was just a disaster waiting to happen. how do you live in a place that's below sea level, and expect it to be perfectly fine forever? at any day, a hurricane could of come along and rip the city apart. oh wait, that DID happen.

=/


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

they won't be rebuilding on the same site. there's no way.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

ShawnKing said:


> "Will New Orleans survive as a city"?
> 
> WTF? No offense but that has to be one of the most patently *ridiculous* questions I've ever heard on this or any other board.
> 
> ...


So why has downtown Detroit not been reclaimed in the last 40 years? The skyscrapers are left as modern ruins. Americans found it easier to move to the outskirts and build new neighborhoods and businesses instead of fixing what they already had.

The ruins were left for the vagrants and drug dealers and gangs. Some were abandoned in the 60's and as time went on more and more buildings become abandoned, with businesses not able to survive over the years. A lot of these buildings have only been abandoned in the last 20 years.

Why is it so inconceivable that people won't just take a long hard look at a city built largely below sea level and say to themselves, "you know what? I'm not rebuilding my house here just to have it destroyed again". Will everybody throw up their hands? No. Will the people who had no insurance and lost everything throw up their hands and move away. Probably a lot of them will.

New Orleans will be rebuilt, but it will never be the same as it was.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Possibly a bit flippant at this point, but I'm a bit surprised that I haven't heard any mention of the now prescient, Tragically Hip song, "New Orleans is Sinking".











> - from Popular Mechanics, September 2001:
> 
> *NEW ORLEANS IS SINKING*
> 
> ... The fact that New Orleans has not already sunk is a matter of luck. If slightly different paths had been followed by Hurricanes Camille, which struck in August 1969, Andrew in August 1992 or George in September 1998, today we might need scuba gear to tour the French Quarter.


Obviously, this tragedy was an accident waiting to happen.

"My memory is muddy what's this river I'm in
New Orleans is sinking and I don't want to swim."


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

heh, I posted some lyrics from that song on a mostly US message board yesterday and no one knew what I was on about.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

CarbonKen said:


> So why has downtown Detroit not been reclaimed in the last 40 years? The skyscrapers are left as modern ruins. Americans found it easier to move to the outskirts and build new neighborhoods and businesses instead of fixing what they already had.


This is easy to answer. N'awlins is a party town; Detroit is a rather charmless, aging rust belt city. When the car companies were pounded by Japanese competitors they closed off their factories and let a huge local population fall off the employment rolls. Middle class people fled the city's core for the suburbs. Watch "Roger and Me" which addresses this topic.

N'awlins will come back. You can list reasons why it can't, and shouldn't, but it will. Absolutely, positively yes.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

Detroit is just another example of how our "modern" throw-away society works.

Repair automatic transmission on 95 Pontiac Bonneville = $3300.00
Purchase used 1995 Pontiac Bonneville = $2500.00 Sell your old Bonny for $1500.00 as is.

What are you going to do?

There was a person on a board recently asking if he could fix his own SLR lens, because the cost to repair it was greater than the cost of purchasing a new one.

What are you going to do?

Sometimes is it simply more cost effective to start anew. So what is the problem with MacDoc's question?

Shawn King's comments are out of line, borderline rude.

Mel


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

I have seen Roger and Me and I understand that, but people moved away instead of improving conditions within Detroit. The suburbs of Detroit are thriving, there's some very rich areas not too far from the city core.

My point is that if people abandoned a city like Detroit because of an economic disaster why wouldn't people abandon New Orleans after a real disaster and rebuild in the outlaying areas?


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

CarbonKen said:


> My point is that if people abandoned a city like Detroit because of an economic disaster why wouldn't people abandon New Orleans after a real disaster and rebuild in the outlaying areas?


Because it's too much fun, and the beignets are good.  

Mardi Gras will commence on schedule, you'll see.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Shawn King I don't think you have a clue to scale of this. The water is NOT going to run away - it has to be pumped out and then kept out and by then hundreds of thousands of homes and businesses will ahve to be just plain demolished.

This is not like other floods where the water will drain away on it's own - it's got no where to go to and all the pumping stations that kept it dry are under water.

It's an old city and a poor city and both of those add to the difficulty.
Will it survive in some form?? - most likely..... livable as a city??........very very difficult.

The pollution alone is enormous. They are evacuating the entire city. A million people will be homeless for months. Denying the potential for rebuilding to north shows a fundamental misunderstanding of reality.

The pollution will make Love Canal look an easy project.
The good thing is many around the world love what New Orleans embodies and that in itself may make the difference.

There was an good size island - towns, amusement parks off New York City .......a hurricane destroyed the entire island - there is nothing remaining above water. It's gone entirely.

and there is a fair chance that second hurricane will hit sometime in the next 6 weeks and all it needs to be is anywhere in the northern gulf. A hurricane has hit in that region in Sept just about every year.


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## funkdoobi (Dec 21, 2004)

MissGulch said:


> Because it's too much fun, and the beignets are good.
> 
> Mardi Gras will commence on schedule, you'll see.


and when it doesn't, because the city is pretty much gone at the moment. you'll finally wake up and smell the coffee


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

i think mr king and miss gulch should take a look at the article linked below:

in denial about the forces of nature

also, satellite pics of the area showing the flooding:

before and after 1 

before and after 2 

high-res versions are available as well on both of those sites.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

I read the article, miguelsanchez. Thanks for providing the link.

Might I add that Human nature often disregards the potential destructive powers of Mother nature, and has done so for millenia.

Look at the historic are of Pompeii. Mt. Vesuvius has erupted over 50 times since Pompeii. The people KNEW Mt. Vesuvius was a powderkeg, yet they continued to live their lives in the shadow of that volcano. Thousands have lost their lives to the volcano since Pompeii.

Look at MacNutt and his fellow residents of Vancouver Island. That area is overdue for a major quake. But are they worried? Nah, it'll never happen to THEM.

Can't blame human nature for being optimistic and at the same time, procrastinators.

Mel



miguelsanchez said:


> i think mr king and miss gulch should take a look at the article linked below:
> 
> in denial about the forces of nature


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Detroit a rust belt? Roger and Me? 
Give me a break! That's from 1989! Not relevant any more.
Detroit is a great city, it's resurrected itself from that era quite nicely.
AND really friendly to Canadians. 

Shawn, watch the news, I don't think there will be much partying this weekend in N.O.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

funkdoobi said:


> the city was just a disaster waiting to happen. how do you live in a place that's below sea level, and expect it to be perfectly fine forever?


Holland seems to be doing just fine.


> at any day, a hurricane could of come along and rip the city apart. oh wait, that DID happen.


That can happen almost *anywhere*. You can't base your life on "what if's". You'd end up paralyzed with fear.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> they won't be rebuilding on the same site. there's no way.


Why not? Do you expect a million people to just move?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

CarbonKen said:


> So why has downtown Detroit not been reclaimed in the last 40 years?


What does that have to do with the question? Detroit as a *city* is still there.


> New Orleans will be rebuilt, but it will never be the same as it was.


Nothing ever is.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Melonie said:


> So what is the problem with MacDoc's question?


Ummm...it's silly?


> Shawn King's comments are out of line, borderline rude.


Why?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Shawn King I don't think you have a clue to scale of this.


And what makes you think you have more of a clue about this than I do?


> The water is NOT going to run away


No one said it was going to.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

They won't be able to rebuild on that same site for a VERY long time. I'm sure they'll be back though. If you love an area like the people of New Orleans do, than you stick with it, hell or high water. They'll clean up, they'll fix the levees, and they'll rebuild despite the fact that it will take years. The people of New Orleans will get their lives back. Though changed forever by such a haunting experience, their spirit will help them get through this and rebuild.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

miguelsanchez said:


> i think mr king and miss gulch should take a look at the article linked below:


OK...I did...your point?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

ErnstNL said:


> Shawn, watch the news, I don't think there will be much partying this weekend in N.O.


Partying is how people get through tragedies. Why do you think there's a band at most New Orleans funerals?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

CarbonKen said:


> My point is that if people abandoned a city like Detroit because of an economic disaster why wouldn't people abandon New Orleans after a real disaster and rebuild in the outlaying areas?


Detroit is "just" a city and not a very attractive one at that.

New Orleans is an atmosphere, a feeling, a state of mind.....*that* is worth rebuilding.

If people can "rebuild" after the riots of the 60's or the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict or the hurricanes in Florida last year (3 hit within a 6 week time frame!), what makes you think they wouldn't rebuild one of the world's most beloved cities?

I find it disheartening that so many of you think Americans would simply give up without a fight in a situation like this. It doesn't happen.

New Orleans will be rebuilt. Maybe not this weekend, maybe not in time for Mardi Gras but, believe me, it *will* be rebuilt.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Okay, I relent. You're right, the city will not be rebuilt nor should it.

Now that that's out of the way, somebody please knock on the garage door and tell the kids inside building a computer that nobody's gonna buy their homemade piece of junk. Thanks. 

In other news, Bush "toured" the site, albeit from a safe, air-conditioned plane. Will somebody also tell the "Commander in Chief" he's supposed to *tour* the site on the ground, like his father and Clinton did in Phucket after the tsunami?

What a dick.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

andrewenterprise said:


> They won't be able to rebuild on that same site for a VERY long time. I'm sure they'll be back though. If you love an area like the people of New Orleans do, than you stick with it, hell or high water. They'll clean up, they'll fix the levees, and they'll rebuild despite the fact that it will take years. The people of New Orleans will get their lives back. Though changed forever by such a haunting experience, their spirit will help them get through this and rebuild.


YES!!!!!

Bartender, a Labatt's for this guy.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Well said AE!


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> In other news, Bush "toured" the site, albeit from a safe, air-conditioned plane. Will somebody also tell the "Commander in Chief" he's supposed to *tour* the site on the ground, like his father and Clinton did in Phucket after the tsunami?


In fairness, he *is* POTUS. No point in putting him on the ground during a potentially dangerous situation. Not to mention, he comes with his own baggage, media, security and handlers wise. Those people would do nothing but get in the way of the relief effort.

Bush can be slammed for a lot of things but I don't think this is one of them.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Oh, I know N.O. will be rebuilt. 
It will be smaller, modern and more of a tourist money sucker than ever before. 
The casinos have lost so much money they will want to recoup any losses and make sure to get influence in the rebuilding. 
The tax money from these casino revenues flowing into the state coffers was staggering. 



> US casinos to lose millions a day due to Katrina
> 
> Author: Reuters
> Source: Express India
> ...


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> In fairness, he *is* POTUS. No point in putting him on the ground during a potentially dangerous situation. Not to mention, he comes with his own baggage, media, security and handlers wise. Those people would do nothing but get in the way of the relief effort.
> 
> Bush can be slammed for a lot of things but I don't think this is one of them.


Please, I'm only getting started on this guy. Clinton toured the tsunami wreckage after heart surgery, and Bubble Boy's 82-year-old dad did too. 

But I guess there's no point in jeopardizing his princely ass.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

It will take a long time to pump that water out of there.........everything will be sitting in water that is polluted with gas, chemicals, sewage and whatever else.
Wood will soak that crap into it - wood and structures etc will be useless.
The ground once the water is gone is going to be polluted and probably toxic.
This is NOT going to be solved anytime soon......just give it some serious thought.

I believe it will rebuild itself into something. What, only time will tell.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> Please, I'm only getting started on this guy.


Fine. But at least slam him for things that make sense.


> Clinton toured the tsunami wreckage after heart surgery, and Bubble Boy's 82-year-old dad did too.


Yup. And neither were President of the United States at the time.


> But I guess there's no point in jeopardizing his princely ass.


Nope - there really isn't.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Here's the reality from the guy in charge of it.












> A Metropolitan Soup Bowl
> That's why Walter Maestri and his colleagues are getting ready at the emergency command center in Jefferson Parish. He says if the hurricane comes, they'll seal themselves inside.
> 
> "This is the communications center here—at every station we've got fire, we've got emergency medical, National Guard…" explains Maestri.
> ...


http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/wetlands/hurricane4.html

anyone like big numbers.........

Area of New Orleans 181 square miles = 115,000 acres.
Number of gallons per acre foot - 325,000 ( each acre covered to 1 foot depth. )

3,737,500,000 gallons to pump out FOR EACH FOOT OF WATER!!!!

If we take a 6' below sea level figure = 22,425,000,000 gallons or 89,700,000,000 litres.

That 195 MILLION swimming pools worth of water.

And just think what's IN that water.


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## Bynkii (Aug 31, 2005)

*Nawlins will rebuild*

Having been through one of these storms before, they'll rebuild N.O.

First, aside from the fact that the people that live there want to live _there_, and that there's a ton of tourist money there. (Face it, where else in LA are the tourists going?) You also have a major U.S. deep water port and a major oil presence there. The rebuilding's a given, the only question is how long. 

I do think Bush should have landed, and stuck around for a day or two. I know after Andrew we were _LIVID_ that Bush Sr. landed, drove to a tree, looked at the tree and left. Meanwhile, Clinton came in, hung out, cried with the survivors, said the right things, etc. Bush eventually came back, but he lost a _lot_ of votes in FL. to Clinton in that year's election. (Andrew was August of '92, the elections were in Nov. of '92). The danger to him is minimal, but in times of strife, seeing your leader there, even if only for a couple of days, makes a HUGE difference.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

"But at least slam him for things that make sense."

I'm slamming him for being a coward. An over all chicken hawk who never put his ass on the line for any reason whatsoever.

If it was up to me, I'd bottle the water and serve it to him.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> I'm slamming him for being a coward.


Ok...but you're ignoring the facts. That makes your opinion of him a whole lot less valid.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Ok...but you're ignoring the facts. That makes your opinion of him a whole lot less valid.


The facts are he's afraid to land 'cause he doesn't want to get his feet wet. Chicken hawk!


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> The facts are he's afraid to land 'cause he doesn't want to get his feet wet. Chicken hawk!


Ummm....OK.....If that's what you think, so be it.


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Here's the reality from the guy in charge of it.


that isn't Walter Maestri


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Trevor... said:


> that isn't Walter Maestri


I thought he was Kris Kringle in civvies.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah he's the Army Corp chief researcher at the command post on the river bank nearby.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

This will be like the homefront Marshall Plan that helped to reconstruct much of Europe after WWII.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

ShawnKing said:


> Detroit is "just" a city and not a very attractive one at that....


Not an architecture fan, eh? When things started going downhill in the late 60's Detroit had one of the most beautiful downtown cores in large American cities. At least on par with Chicago's art-deco architecture at the time.

Detroit has a very unique skyline today because a lot of these buildings are still there, not being torn down and replaced as fast as in other big cities, although there has been a lot of demolition in the last few years.


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## funkdoobi (Dec 21, 2004)

> anyone like big numbers.........
> 
> Area of New Orleans 181 square miles = 115,000 acres.
> Number of gallons per acre foot - 325,000 ( each acre covered to 1 foot depth. )
> ...


i dont know how some people choose to ignore the fact that pumping this amount of water out of the city can't be done overnight. 

and as already mentioned. the amount of damage the water will of done to the city, IF it's pumped out, will be catastrophic. lets hope it doesn't become a swamp. =/


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## tikibangout (Jul 19, 2005)

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but they had it in for them. The Indians told the settlers not to build a city there. Who was right?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

funkdoobi, those figures are staggering!!!! Do you have a specific source for this sort of info?


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

dr g, macdoc posted those numbers in reply #65, in case you missed it.

as much as i'd like to see them re-build, the reality is that the place will not be livable for a very long time, and in that time many people will have eventually moved to other cities, or perhaps the la state gov't will decide to build another city somewhere in the area but above sea-level. 

if the refineries and the port facilities stay in the area then of course some people will decide to live there since that's where the jobs are, but i don't see n.o. being a city of the same size anymore.

many of the refugees are being moved to houston, most of them lost everything and really have nothing to go back to. if they were lucky enough to have home insurance, they may just take their cheque and decide to stay in houston. if they did not have insurance, which i'm sure is the case for many of the people who had to stay behind, then they also may just as well decide to stay in houston. 

what i'm trying to say in my half-awake way is that many people may just see this as an opportunity to start fresh in a new city and will probably not return to live in n.o.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Gracias, mi amigo. Leave it to MacDoc to provide facts and figures. Paz.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> And just think what's IN that water.


I read just yesterday that sharks have found their way in to the water... a three footer was spotted swimming down a street.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

New Orleans will be back sooner than anyone can imagine. And the ********* will have some stories to tell...for the next couple of generations. Believe you me.

When I went to oilfield tech school in Houston Texas in the late seventies, I spent almost every weekend in New Orleans (pronounced "NewAwlins" as if it were one long southern accented word).

I loved it. Too freaky. Too bizarre. You can buy hard booze from a street vendor with a pushcart and drink it in the street, if you want to. Lots of boobies. Lots of beer. Lots of good tunes. Really seriously OLD!! But seriously cool, at the same time.

And the place is hotter than a pepper plant in a sealed greenhouse on a sunny day. Steamy hot. Hot like an oven. Hot enough to wilt steel.

I loved it.

But I always thought that the place was a bit tacky and full of rubbish. It needed a good flush to clean out all of the nooks and crannies. And the hooks and trannies, for that matter.

They'll recover. Better levees this time around. And better pumps.

Watch and see.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

This is a largely man-made disaster with a natural trigger. The hurricane is an important part of the equation, but only part: the other is the centuries of attempts to manipulate the Mississippi--to halt natural changes in its course, to stop it from flooding--and the draining of wetlands. The result of those efforts has been that the natural process of building up delta lands through annual flooding and silt deposition has been halted. Wetlands, which protect against storm surges, have been destroyed on a vast scale. The coastline and its protective qualities have been severely damaged...not by storms, but by people.

In urban areas, there are additional problems: what was originally a settlement just above sea level is now substantially below sea level because the whole system of pumps and levees promotes subsidence. New Orleans really is sinking, and it sinks a little more every time they pump out the latest rainfall.

So...will they rebuild? I think New Orleans will survive in some form, a form that will largely resemble a theme park. Most of the oil biz, shipping, etc.--the big anonymous money-makers that have zilch to do with the "party town" aspect--will move to lower-risk areas. (Apparently the port is already largely independent of the city proper.) Many poor people, who occupied the lowest-lying, hardest-hit areas, will not be able to return: they will probably resettle, for the most part, in initially "temporary" locales such as Houston.

What's left will be the historic districts that have always occupied the highest ground, a one-note tourist economy to sustain them, and continuing efforts to control the river and the sea, hopefully now coupled with some sort of attempt to start restoring the wetlands and floodplains.

Very few people will be able to afford to live there; most will have to commute to their jobs in museums, bars and restaurants. The oil business, of course, must go on, but it seems highly unlikely to me that the benefits of being located in New Orleans will outweigh the risks when it comes time to decide where to have the base of operations.

It's all very sad...and let me be clear that I don't blame people for living there and wanting to return, and I don't blame them for wanting to rebuild. For better or worse, there will be a rebuilding effort, but the relatively small scale of it will shock anyone who today thinks the whole city is coming back.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacNutt said:


> But I always thought that the place was a bit tacky and full of rubbish. It needed a good flush to clean out all of the nooks and crannies. And the hooks and trannies, for that matter.


Now THAT was funny! :rofl:


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

I just heard on the news that Fats Domino has been reported as missing in New Orleans. Apparently he was seen after the storm on his balcony, but hasn't been seen since.

http://tinyurl.com/b739s


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The Mayor has basically said New Orleans is desperate - SOS he says. The situation at the dome is awful - SWAT teams are deployed and many shots fired. 



> New Orleans Mayor Issues 'Desperate SOS'
> 
> Thursday September 1, 2005 9:16 PM
> 
> ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-5249122,00.html

Apparently there are still 100,000 people stranded in New Orleans and upwards of 150,000 unaccounted for.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

They must have realized that this would happen...
Even The Tragically Hip warned them with a hit song!

It's those aligators that scare me though...Yeeeessshhh!!!.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Dave, I nearly lost a student to an alligator that roamed out of the Okeefenokee Swamp, through a farmer's field, and onto our playground when I taught outside of Waycross, Georgia. It was minding its own business, resting in the shade, when some of my students came upon it and started to taunt it with rocks. When it started to come for her, I grabbed her under my arm and ran like hell. Luckily, it was too hot and sunny for the gator to continue its mock-attack.

I would not joke about the terror that these creatures can create.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> It was minding its own business, resting in the shade, when some of my students came upon it and started to taunt it with rocks. When it started to come for her, I grabbed her under my arm and ran like hell.


Didn't let Darwin take its course, huh?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah those 'gators got a real good survival rate.......250 million years and counting. 

Think about one of these sneaking up


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

My students thought that I had overreacted, but I was terrified. These were children who brought snakes to school for show and tell, and once brough in a hog the size of a small cow. Still, in the final analysis, these were great kids and they taught me a great deal about the south.


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

Well, I for one, didn't realize that Fats Domino was still alive.

iMatt, there is an old adage, "Mother nature always bats last". No matter how smart we think we are and how many engineering solutions we can come up with, the forces of nature will get us in the end.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Especially if we give her the fuel to up the weaponry levels......and stand ( or build ) in harms way..


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Nasty stuff on Telly today.  

The rescue efforts have been temporarily suspended because some of the residents of the now flooded "Big Easy" are, apparently, shooting at their rescuers.

Intense violence. Widespread looting. Physical attacks upon civilian volunteers who are trying to help. Weapons deployed and fired against the national guard rescue crews by wild eyed looters who are into their third or fourth day of a binge to end all binges.

Hoo boy! 

It's one part Indonesian Tsunami, one part Somalia, and one part south central LA during the Rodney King riots....all played out in a ruined city that is waist deep in fetid water. 

Throw in a few thousand rotting corpses and a whole bunch of poisonous snakes....and you could have a really bad Roger Corman movie here. 

Hurtin place right now. My heart goes out to them.


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

This is irrelevant to the situation but I was struck by comparing the images of the NO flood to the tsunami of last winter. What struck me was the size of many of the people in the current disaster (very large many of them) and the clothes people are wearing (Sports jerseys and fancy sneakers). Again, irrelevant but interesting (to me).


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

A few weeks on a diet of nothing will reduce some of those wide-glide southern waistlines, Carex. 

Unfortunately...that may be what they are facing right now. If they aren't shot. And don't expire from something horrible they catch from that fetid water! 

Then, there's the snakes....


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Came across this today... interesting:


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

The reporter defended the white folks "finding" food, because the food had actually floated out of the store. According to him, the folks on the bottom never broke in to a store.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

By Jim Dalrymple [email protected]

Apple is now accepting donations on behalf of the Red Cross for victims of Hurricane Katrina through its iTunes Music Store. Donation amounts of $5 to $200 are available on the site hosted free of charge by Apple. You will receive an iTunes Music Store receipt for your donation, all of which will go to the Red Cross. Apple also notes that your personal information is not shared with Red Cross, so they will not be able to acknowledge your donation.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

jicon said:


> The reporter defended the white folks "finding" food, because the food had actually floated out of the store. According to him, the folks on the bottom never broke in to a store.


I got home at 2 am from my nightshift, and have been watching the coverage for hours. I'm mesmerized by this tragedy. I've been watching this since it happened. I'm going to bed after I write this...

This tragedy is a glaring statement about the underclass that exists in our society. New Orleans had a huge percentage of people living below the poverty line (some 27%), and we're seeing some of them acting out on TV. The old axiom goes something like this... "We are never more than a day away from anarchy." Turn on CNN if you want to see anarchy.

This Katrina tragedy is a lesson, and we need to heed it. We need to deal with the poverty in our society, and we need to move toward equality in our existence. If we don't, the fallout is evident. When the fabric of society breaks down, when the cohesion of organized life breaks apart, those that are teetering on the edge will act out. We need to find a balance, or chaos will reign.

The NO tragedy is more about our "class" system, than it is about a storm. And it's NOT a race issue.

Now, go and listen to Bruce Hornsby singing : "The Way It is", and report back.

g'night

-GW


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## coreLlama (Aug 5, 2005)

Hey, there's a web hosting company in the middle of the city that's still online. Check it out Wired News


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

GW, you hit it on the head. The natural disaster is horrendous enough. So see how these people are reacting is an eye opener for me. 

I can understand and I have no issues with people going after food.

The rest of it, to hinder the rescue, to take advantage of everyones 
pain - cause the store owners that they are looting needed to make a living just as much as anyone else -they are hurting and now hurting others with their looting and behaviour - incomprehensible to me. To shoot at people trying to help others?????


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

You can't treat people like animals for generations and then expect them to act in a "civilized" manner when under stress.


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

I expect ShawnKing and MissGulch are already on their way to NO for that partying this weekend.


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## sammy (Oct 12, 2002)

I'm surprised at what appears to be a disorganized relief effort. I would have thought that in the 4 years since the 9/11 attacks and constant planning for another disaster, not to mention what should have been a N.O. specific strategy, that things would not have disintegrated this badly. This is not a remote 3rd world island on the other side of the world.

Instead of waiting for buses to go 500 miles away, why not a 50 mile bus trip to a functioning train station?
Why hasn't every bus, truck, plane wheelbarrow been commandeered to help in the relief?

It seems so "broken".

Once the pumping out can begin, where does this contaminted water go? Straight back into the ocean? 

As all the food that could be gotten within the city has been taken, the next ring of intact sources (grocery stores) appears to be cleaned out. Surely this need for food and water must keep rippling out and affectiing those communities that were spared from the direct dissaster.

Damn, everday seems to get more grim, and only 2000km down the hiway.


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

You know what is scary? That no matter what kind of disaster or situation us humans get into, we humans are our own enemies.

Why are people shooting to begin with? Where are the basic fundamentals of survival in a human society? 

We humans live together, make money, spend money, party, live life, but when a disaster happens, we are no longer working together, but working against each other to the point of killing each other. 

So basically everyone around you, pretends to live with you, but in the end when it really counts, you're a dead duck and out to fend for your own life. That neighbour you drank beer with on weekends is now your enemy and will shoot you if he finds out you have a piece of bread in your hands during a natural disaster. 

I experienced this kind of human behaviour a few years ago when we had the power outage. At the time I was living in Toronto, and prior the power outage, life was good, prices were great for buying groceries and other items. As soon as the power went out, humans who ran those stores, gas stations etc... couldn't wait to RIP the living **** off of everyone who lived in the area. All of a sudden that battery that cost around $3.00 had tripled in price, milk and bread had doubled in price. People were pushing and shoving, knocking you down to get perhaps the last bottle of water in the area which also was almost 4 times the amount in price.

Is that what we have to look forward to as a society when a natural disaster happens in our area? You bet, so be prepared. It won't be all love and caring, it will be survival of the fittest. I honestly could not believe for the short amount of time 4 days without power or water for me, that I had to experience something like that in the area I was living in. I now understand why a lot of humans in the USA bought weapons as their first order of survival gear during the Y2K scare. It makes sense now, because you will need it if you want to live long enough during a major disaster. 

As for New Orleans surviving as a city? Good Luck! When people stop fighting to be rescued by shooting the rescue people, when people stop killing each other to survive, then and only then can the real efforts of rebuilding and restoring New Orleans begin.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Wolfshead said:


> I expect ShawnKing and MissGulch are already on their way to NO for that partying this weekend.


Hey...cool....way to take a civilized discussion and start firing cheap shots. Bravo.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Looks like people south of the border are starting to ask the question in the title of this thread. Just a few for now: it's obviously a very sensitive topic, and essentially a theoretical question at a time when the disaster condition and humanitarian emergency are still worsening, but they are asking.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv.../LAC/20050902/STORMREBUILD02/TPInternational/

Regardless, I'm finding this whole tragedy more and more heartbreaking as the days go by. I'm just so appalled by so much of what I'm seeing and reading. The chaos and despair are just mind-boggling.

But I reserve a feeling of disgust for the lack of official preparedness. There is no excuse for failing to have troops on the ground before the storm hit, failing to enforce the evacuation order with those troops, and failing to ensure adequate food, water and medicine at places like the Superdome and the convention centre. 

To me there's no doubt that this will be a profoundly transformative event for the United States. Exactly how remains to be seen...but the shockwaves will be felt for many years after the precise fate of New Orleans and the rest of the gulf coast has been determined.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Hey...cool....way to take a civilized discussion and start firing cheap shots. Bravo.





ShawnKing said:


> ...that has to be one of the most patently *ridiculous* questions I've ever heard on this or any other board.



Ye reap what ye sow....

Mel


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

If I may make a far reaching comaprison, my wife commented on the dis-similarity between the Sept 11 disaster and this crisis. 

Problem: There is no true leadership at the top.

I know there are major differences between the 2 situations but just think about it:

Sept. 11 disaster.
Rudy Giuliani took the bull by the horns and directed the show, showed leadership by example, became the true leader of an emotional and social disaster. He was the boss, the go-to person.
The days following the disaster showed he had focus and he had everyone pulling toward a noble goal. The el=presidente was absent in mind and body. The people of NYC showed heroism and Americans were proud.

Hurricane Katrina:
Who is making decisions and organizing relief?
NO ONE is in charge!
The true GWBush is showing, again, what a moron. More photo-ops in safe areas. Pressing the flesh rather than making a difference. If I was American, I would be ashamed.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

ErnstNL, you must be another one of these "seriously disturbed persons" that SINC is rattling on about.

Mel  



SINC said:


> Calling anyone a moron are the words of a seriously disturbed person. Your judgement is severely impaired.





ErnstNL said:


> The true GWBush is showing, what a moron.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

That's OK Mel, Sinc is one in a million, God bless 'im.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

As I watch CNN here this afternoon, the fires are burning, the troops are moving in by the hundreds, food and water is coming in...
It's about time don't you think?


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## RISK (Jan 3, 2004)

*Amazing*

On CNN's site, quoting the head of FEMA:

"Yet, Brown told CNN's "Paula Zahn Now" Thursday evening that federal officials only found out about the unfolding humanitarian crisis at the convention center earlier in the day -- despite the fact that city officials had been telling people for days to take shelter there.

"We just learned about that today, and so I have directed that we have all available resources to get that convention center to make sure that they have the food and water, the medical care that they need," he said."

The head of FEMA didn't know there were thousands of people at the convention centre? That is absolutely stunning--CNN and other newsmedia have been showing footage from the convention centre for days.

Bush cut the budget for levy maintenance by 25 million dollars. An Army Corp of Engineers guy was on TV last night saying that they were stretched thin because of rebuilding in Iraq and Afghanistan--hence the relatively slow fix on the canals and other federally maintained structures that failed.

I am really disgusted by the US government's response to Katrina. Not just in New Orleans, but all over the Gulf Coast. There are people walking across one of the few remaining bridges out of New Orleans, and when they reach the end of the bridge there is nothing set up to receive them. Nothing. Brown should be fired, and so should Bush.

Buses show up at the Astrodome in Houston (eight hours from New Orelans!) and get turned away.

I deplore the violence in New Orleans, but people have evidently figured out they have been abandoned and are pissed off. I don't agree with it, but I can see where it comes from for sure.

Writing about this on a Canadian Mac group is likely totally useless, but I am incensed by this tragedy. I lived in the US for many years and have spent some time in New Orleans and along the Gulf Coast, it just really angers me to see such poor disaster response. Everybody is saying now is not the time to blame, but I think it is. Massive disasters are a federal responsibility, and the federal government's domestic policies are directly responsibile for hundreds or likely thousands of deaths. Years of wasting money on foreign wars and bizzare tax cuts are coming home to roost, watch it live on your TV.

My heart and $ go out to the Gulf Coast.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

<IMG SRC="http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2251/findloot1kq.jpg">

Although those two pictures were on the same news website they were taken by two different photographers from two different news agencies with two different spins on their stories. The photographers write their own captions so I don't think that is a clear cut case of racism.

For all we know the photographer who shot the black youth may well have labelled the white couple as looter as well and vice-versa. It's hard to say.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

RISK said:


> The head of FEMA didn't know there were thousands of people at the convention centre? That is absolutely stunning--CNN and other newsmedia have been showing footage from the convention centre for days.


it's called lying. to save your ass. there's a reason that fema moved their emergnecy hq from n.o. to baton rouge - they were giving up. they were going to let nature take its course and only the strong (if any) would survive.

now that the army (or something like it - national guard, etc) is rolling in, they're going to take credit for getting these poor people (the poorest of the poor) food and water just in the nick of time.


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## RISK (Jan 3, 2004)

Agreed with the lying, amazing. I don't care how the support gets there, and if it does finally come on an Army truck then great. The mayor of New Orleans has already said the only person seemingly getting things done was an army general. If the army actually does its job and then takes credit for making things happen then that's credit deserved.

As for racism, well, I'm a full cynic and suspect that disaster relief would have come a lot faster if these were white people dying and not poor inner city black Americans. The political fall-out from this is going to be immense, as it should be. Bush looks so completely out of touch on TV, like a little rooster fluffing his feathers and not someone actually working to solve the problem. I predict serious change in American politics after this disaster and the Iraq disaster. As someone once said, "You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." Wake up America!

For anyone interested in trying to help, check http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1125652896299210.xml&coll=1, good list. I must say that althought I don't like the Salvation Army's religious angle they have apparently done a far better job than any federal agency, as has the Red Cross.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

from cnn:


> But there was perhaps no clearer illustration of the disconnect between how emergency officials view the situation at a distance, and how it is viewed by those actually living it on the ground, than (FEMA Director Michael) Brown's comments to CNN's Wolf Blitzer Thursday evening about the evacuation of hospitals in the city.
> 
> "I've just learned today that we ... are in the process of completing the evacuations of the hospitals, that those are going very well," he said.
> 
> ...


i believe this is what the mayor was talking about when he mentioned "spin".


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I find it interesting that a FEMA report from 2001 warned of just such a disaster, yikes, but good ol' Bush cut the funding into research into this avoiding disaster. FEMA report from 2001  
I guess Bush doesn't like to read.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Vinnie Cappuccino said:


> I find it interesting that a FEMA report from 2001 warned of just such a disaster, yikes, but good ol' Bush cut the funding into research into this avoiding disaster. FEMA report from 2001
> I guess Bush doesn't like to read.


Silly Vinnie, of course George W. Bush can read.

There is another perfect storm gathering due to the confluence of the disasters in Iraq, the rising oil markets, the devastation of the gulf states and the apparent ineptitude of the President. This one is centered on Washington DC.


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

Bush today made a statement along the lines of "The people of New Orleans need to realize that we are working hard to bring relief to them." That is not the exact quote but it is close.

Does he think they are watching TV?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Reminded me of the SNL sketch during the 2004 election in response to the situation in Iraq. "We're gonna work really hard, really hard. We're gonna work on Saturdays....".


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

UTBJW said:


> Reminded me of the SNL sketch during the 2004 election in response to the situation in Iraq. "We're gonna work really hard, really hard. We're gonna work on Saturdays....".


LOL! I saw that one.
"... we're gonna work through lunch ..."

So is this what it takes for Americans to finally realize that the Emperor has no clothes? Or are they going to buy the BS, yet again?


Carex said:


> Does he think they are watching TV?


He probably doesn't give a damn about those who aren't.

Does anyone want to hazard a guess about what the ratio of polling booths to residents there will be during the next elections, in the affected areas of Louisiana and Mississippi? Similar to Ohio, where the Ohio Republican machine disenfranchised the inner cities by making them stand in line all day to vote.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

Give credit were credit is due. New Orleans will not only survive, it will benefit "hugely" from this incident.

One word for you..... "Venezia" . Posh things up, put some gondolieri and stuff. The poor are "gone", Publicity will be huge. America will eat it up and be proud of the reconstruction. 

Of course it won't be nothing like the original , but still.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> So is this what it takes for Americans to finally realize that the Emperor has no clothes?


Many of us already knew, and never bought the BS. The only reason he got voted back in was because many people believed that Bush is keeping them safe.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ErnstNL said:


> If I may make a far reaching comaprison, my wife commented on the dis-similarity between the Sept 11 disaster and this crisis.
> 
> Problem: There is no true leadership at the top.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more. I was thinking about that today. Guiliani took charge and assisted with the response after 911.

The mayor of New Orleans is just busy blaming other people. Maybe he should look in the mirror and realize he should be part of the solution and should be working with the feds instead of cutting them down.

If the feds didn't take the response seriously enough at the start, he is to blame as well for not convincing them of the problem.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Vandave said:


> I couldn't agree more. I was thinking about that today. Guiliani took charge and assisted with the response after 911.
> 
> The mayor of New Orleans is just busy blaming other people. Maybe he should look in the mirror and realize he should be part of the solution and should be working with the feds instead of cutting them down.
> 
> If the feds didn't take the response seriously enough at the start, he is to blame as well for not convincing them of the problem.


Right on the money, Vandave!

After 9/11 each major city was asked to submit an emergency plan and a requisition for federal funding to make it happen ASAP.

To the best of my knowledge, New Orleans got their fair chunk of this federal emergency preparedness money. Quite some time ago.

I wonder what happened to it?
 

And...if they DID actually spend it on emergency supplies...then WHY were the New Orleans city officials unable to direct people to those supplies? Especially since those same officials had already directed the residents of their endangered city to gather in the Superdome?

You'd think that they would have thought this thing out a bit better And anticipated what was coming....


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
[email protected]
www.MichaelMoore.com

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Ummm....

You might want to pose a few of your pertinent questions to the city officials in New Orleans about disaster preparedness. More than four years ago (right after 9/11) they were asked to submit a detailed plan for ANY emergency...and to requistion money from the federal government to cover any costs for this emergency plan. ALL American cities were.

New Orleans did just that. They got the federal money (all American cities did)...and we can only hope that they spent it on the right things, and that they set themselves up with a plan of action. And...BTW....hurricane driven flood emergencies were right at the top of their list in that particular city. Always have been.

So...we can only wonder what went wrong. We can only wonder why the leaders of that city directed all of those thousands of residents into the Superdome...and then didn't seem to have any other plan but to leave them there for the duration of the emergency. Without food or water or sanitation or electricity. 

I suspect that these same questions will be asked by rather a LOT of people , in the coming months.

And rightfully so.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt you're such a racist ass.
You're incompetent city officials managed to get over a million people evacuated.
The Feds COULD have ordered the national airlines to keep flying but they were still on vacation so the main airlines stopped flying out waaaaay before the storm ...why - cuz they couldn't fill the planes going IN......so they just did not bother.

The city officials are not repsonsible for the relief, FEMA and the Feds are - the Mayor offered to lead a groups of the survivors out of the city himself - he stayed in the city.

Bush cut the funding for New Orleans levee and water management control by 65% last years while handing his oil buddies huge subsidies and corporate tax breaks.
The FEDS had a national disaster plan showing New Orleans as a likely NATIONAL catastrophe - and only the Feds have the resources to deal with it. They were clearly slow off the mark and that's on Bush's plate.

New York did NOT have 1 million fleeing people and 181 square miles of urban concentration under water with the surrounding area of 1000 square miles devastated.

Aid HAD to come from the outside - there was nothing left. What, they should have parked amphibious helicopters permanently in the city loaded with food for a million people???

Point the fingers where it belongs - where the rest of the US knows the blame lies - squarely on Bush's doorstep. 
HIS administration cut the funding by their own CHOICE. 
HIS administration is spending a billion a week on foreign adventurism by their own CHOICE....robbing valuable resources.

Cities can't cope with NATIONAL level catastrophes and this is way way worse than 9/11.....and he was slow off the mark on that too.
Juliano HAD city resources to mobilize - HIS city was not underwater.
No one expected the levee system to fail so quickly nor expected the ALL of the communications including cellular to go down in such a wide area.
Just what resources did the NO Mayor have???......none.

Taking money from the levee system - 2/3s of it - stands out as clearly WRONG. Bush had a choice - he made the wrong one. Not the first time.

Now's he's pulling troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. 
Stick your snide little "good ol white boy" insinuations where the sun don't shine. 

••


> Rage grows over slow federal response
> By Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Washington
> Published: September 2 2005 20:46 | Last updated: September 2 2005 23:19
> 
> ...





> *As criticism mounts, Bush tours Gulf Coast*
> 
> President Bush, Homeland Security head Michael Chertoff (second from right), and FEMA chief Michael Brown (center).
> By Susan Milligan, Globe Staff | September 3, 2005
> ...





> Blaming Bush
> 
> Leader
> Saturday September 3, 2005
> ...


Bush...."casual to the point of carelessness"....indeed.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Macnutt you're such a racist ass.


Whoa...hang on there...so far MacNutt has shown in this thread that he's anything but racist.

Man...second time I've defended MacNutt this week.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I was wondring the same thing...I've seen nothing overtly racist in Macnutt's posts.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I've been thinkin that the evacuation in New Orleans was much like the evacuation of Bagdad, poorly planned and people without their own gas guzzlin vehicle were put to death. This administration is soaked in the blood of innocent people, and will cause much more death.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Oh c'mon Iron Mac - his insinuations are obvious- look at his choices of human conflict.
This isn't new - he implied it about other Caribbean disasters as well.
You cruise a bit on his comments the hurricane that hit in the Caribbean last year and then you tell me the bias isn't there, just as it is here.

He's a self admitted ******* and has the baggage to go with it. Exactly the same underlying distain the Cons and, the Reform party keep trying to cover up. It's all of a piece.



> nothing *overtly* racist


....kps that's the keyword....overtly.. and I suspect you used it because you know exactly what I'm talking about. 
It's not overt - it's insinuated......and I'm tired of the facade.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I'm actually more confident now that at least the heart of New Orleans is reasonably intact. Cnn had a good satellite survey on just now - shows why the French built where they did.
Perhaps the city will do what Toronto did and not allow building in the worst flood areas. ( Don Valley )
The images showed the French Quarter not flooded. :clap:

The Corp of Engineer chief that was interviewed also felt some progress was being made - apparently the city can drain some of the water into the lake north of it.

It would be a GOOD thing if America focused it's attention on this and built a sparkling and sustainable commuity out of the devastation.
It won't be the last big storm to hit.
Maybe now some of the environmentalists that have been predicting this will be listened to.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

I was also wondering how the Bush admin. would have responded to Katrina if say Palm Springs was so devastated.

Being poor and black in America isn't good for one's health.
I'm sure Cheney and the PNAC war machine as not unhappy. They just shorted all their oil futures. Halliburton stocks are doing ok. Cheney's deferred payments are safe and secure.

This current U.S. administration makes me sick.
Tell me again how bad Clinton was?

For some reason people seem to die under Republican gov't. Why? Because "profit" comes before "people."
I can only hope that the American people finally wake up and smell the proverbial coffee.

Homeland Defence? Don't make me laugh.
More like "Boondoggle" Defence.

macnutt fails to even recognize that the 2/3 cut from the levee maintenance budget just might have had something to do with all this carnage.

I can only hope there will be a special place in hell for Bush and his band of war mongers.

Bring back Clinton and his sexual escapades, record $ surplus and move towards national health care.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I found it interesting last night that Larry King bluntly questioned the black versus white issue in the speed of the response with several officials including Jesse Jackson.
He was blunt.....good on him to ask the hard questions.

There is going to be LOTS.

Overall the scale of the storm, the collapse of levees and cell communications threw the emergency plans well off track.
Tardy response....gonna a be a lot of navel gazing.

Castro just remarked that he would offer no comment on the hurricane "response"........."Not fair to hit an opponent when he's down" he said. 



> Castro offers medical aid to U.S.
> 
> 
> Saturday, September 3, 2005; Posted: 4:33 a.m. EDT (08:33 GMT)
> ...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

It is rather interesting that a poor, Third-World country is more prepared for natural disasters than the richest country on the planet, eh?


> It's not so much Cuba's communist government that makes for streamlined disaster preparation, explained Richard Erstad, director for Latin American/Caribbean programs at the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC).
> 
> <b>It's simply a conscientious and prepared network of volunteers, disaster responders, and public health officials who all work together,</b> said Erstad.
> 
> ...


M.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

It's not likely to happen but I sure hope they accept the 1,100 doctors from Cuba.

My brother and sis-inlaw are nurses on the ground in Louisiana right now. Their hospital in Maine gave them paid leave to go to her home and help out. They are in the far west side of the state but every hospital is crammed with casualties. My bro called last night saying it's like nursing in a war zone. They need more doctors. There are not enough to go around.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

It would be heartening if America's richest tech companies, such as Microsoft, Apple and Dell, would match donations to the storm victims' efforts. In the wake of the tsunami of last December the Canadian government matched funds given to the Canadian Red Cross, so that's where I sent my money.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

With a different administration this could be exactly the kind of thing to thaw relations as it did to a degree with those 88 doctors and nurses sent to Iran by the US - the best thing I've seen as a foreign policy initiative from the US in a while...One thing that is coming out is the "red tape" issue - so much for the land of pioneering initiative .

There were 300 ambulances ready in Florida and they had to wait for FEMA to get under way.......I would hope Canadians would show a bit more personal initiative - they seemed to in the Quebec ice storm.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> With a different administration this could be exactly the kind of thing to thaw relations as it did to a degree with those 88 doctors and nurses sent to Iran by the US - the best thing I've seen as a foreign policy initiative from the US in a while...


it worked for turkey and greece in 1999: first in august when izmit, turkey was devastated by an earthquake, and greece sent medical and search and rescue teams with sniffer dogs. turkey replied in kind less than a month later when athens was hit by a terrible earthquake as well. relations between the two countries have thawed somewhat since then, the cyprus issue notwithstanding.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Oh c'mon Iron Mac - his insinuations are obvious- look at his choices of human conflict.
> This isn't new - he implied it about other Caribbean disasters as well.
> You cruise a bit on his comments the hurricane that hit in the Caribbean last year and then you tell me the bias isn't there, just as it is here.


I said that in *this* thread he seems to be anything but a racist. Homophobic yes but not a racist.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Wolfshead said:


> I expect ShawnKing and MissGulch are already on their way to NO for that partying this weekend.


Well, we wouldn't have been the only ones.

<b><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/05/katrina.bars.reut/index.html?section=cnn_topstories" target="_blank">Yes, you can still get a drink in New Orleans</a></b>


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Wolfshead said:


> I expect ShawnKing and MissGulch are already on their way to NO for that partying this weekend.


Party, moi? I'm busy all weekend putting together boxes for hurricane relief. Here's an address for a church in Houston distributing supplies for the survivors in case anybody wants to send a few things:

http://www.sohmission.org/KatrinaHelp.html

Maybe next weekend, Wolfie.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

ShawnKing said:


> "Will New Orleans survive as a city"?
> 
> WTF? No offense but that has to be one of the most patently *ridiculous* questions I've ever heard on this or any other board.
> 
> What do you expect - they'll simply shutter everything and move to Houston? That people who live there will throw up their hands and go to Biloxi?


Well, you can add CTV to you list of places asking the ridiculous question, as well as CNN. 



> Even *asking* the question shows a fundamental misunderstanding of America and Americans.


What's interesting is that in the CNN poll, 56% of Americans think that the city will never rebuild. And while less scientific, the CTV.ca poll suggest that only 24% of CTV.ca visitor think the city will never rebuild. 

At any rate, I don't think it was or is a ridiculous question, although it does feel a bit indelicate at the moment with so many suffering. I can't bear the news these days.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> Even *asking* the question shows a fundamental misunderstanding of America and Americans.


You had Bush on vacation,
Cheney shopping for a house,
Rice shopping for shoes.
Barbara Bush telling us that the poor are now better off in Texas.

How will they rebuild? Cheney is telling people to call their insurance companies.
Bush is either drunk or stupid, possibly both.
FEMA is know as FEMA Ghost....

Party on....


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

ehMax said:


> Well, you can add CTV to you list of places asking the ridiculous question, as well as CNN.


Just because the mainstream media asks the same question, doesn't make it any less ridiculous.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> Just because the mainstream media asks the same question, doesn't make it any less ridiculous.


The question is ridiculous, granted. NO will be rebuild but maybe not the way you expect. 
9/11 was exploited by Neo-Cons for their purposes, Katrina showed how much Americans are not prepared...
I hear the FEMA director will be fired this afternoon....

So when are you going to MardiGras?


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Macnutt you're such a racist ass.


Name-calling and characterization. But will the moderators do anything about it?

So much for "friendly discussion about Canadian life."


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Macnutt you're such a racist ass.


While he very well may be, what did he post that caused you to write the above?

If he did say something racist, I'll join in on the beatings.

If he didn't, you're setting up straw men just to argue.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> So when are you going to MardiGras?


Next February. Why?


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