# Winter Tires for 09-10



## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Poll Notes: All Temps should be air temperature, not wind chill corrected.
It's a multiple choice Poll; select the conditions you drive on more than 30 days/winter.

Once again, it's Winter Tire Time! I've posted a Poll that I hope will help people decide on tires this winter; road conditions vary across Canada and no tire is going to be the best performer across the country. Of course, everyone is encouraged to report their own experience with their choice (or what they're stuck with) this winter.

I was hoping people might use the Poll to help frame the winter conditions they most often are faced with when they make comments. I'm going to suggest you mention any poll categories where you experience the conditions indicated, and how often.

For any Tire recommendations, I'm going to suggest a rating of 1 (worst) to 5 (best) with "3" being a standard M&S rated tire. I would expect "summer tires" to be a "1". Feel free to use any of the poll categories in your ratings.

Similarly, you can expand on winter driving conditions using a similar scale.

Winter Driving Conditions:
Always (more than 60 days/year): 5
Often (more than 30 days/year): 4
Occasionally (10~30 days/year): 3
Rarely (less than 10 days/year): 2
Never (1 or fewer days/year): 1

Tire Performance:
Median = M&S Rated Tire = 3
Poor = Summer Rated Tire = 1

Much Better Traction: 5
Better Traction: 4
Average M&S Tire Traction: 3
Compromised Traction: 2
Poor Traction: 1


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BFGoodrich Tires | Winter Slalom® KSI | Tire Overview

Thought I would try these BF Goodrich snow tires. Bought them brand new along with some winter rims so I don't have to keep ripping them off and on each winter/spring. We shall see.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

This winter, I'm going to install Continental ExtremeWinterContact tires on my PT Cruiser and I'm going back to Cooper Weather-Master ST-2's on the truck after my poor experience with Nokian Hakkapeliitta LT's.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

gg, I have heard mixed results with Nokian snow tires -- some swear by them other at them.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

To be honest, we get storms that dump so much snow and it drifts so high, that I can clear out our entire driveway, but our Cul de Sac has a waist deep path of snow. I have a neighbor who has a huge truck, and he tries to blast his way through ............ making a bit of a path for another neighbor's Jeep Cherokee. Then comes the Toyota Highlander ............... and then some of the smaller cars can try to make a run.


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

I'll do as always - just run the all weather radials that came with the car. 

Here in BC, it's normal to get a dump of snow shortly before or after Xmas that hangs around for a week or so, makes a big mess, and then is seen no more until the following year. 

Last year was the exception that proves the rule - lots of snow from November through January. Even through that spell of rotten weather, though, regular all-season tires did the trick for me.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

My GoodYear snow tires have been on all four wheels of the 4 x 4 and ready to go for two weeks now.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

My '09 F150 4x4 came with Pirelli Scorpion ATRs. I don't think I'll need anything more for driving in the GTA. We do have to travel north of Barrie on occasion, but generally the roads are well maintained. I'll see how well they perform when the snowflakes start flying.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... gg, I have heard mixed results with Nokian snow tires -- some swear by them other at them. ..."

The Nokians weren't bad tires in most city driving conditions, but failed somewhat in comparison to others I've used when on ice, and were one of the worst tires I've ever used in snow ... especially annoying since most truck tires, including all-season versions, do at least a passable job in snow.

Now I know why Nokian recommends studding them in snow regions, but studding them negates all the other attributes Nokians are famous for ... in other words, what were they smoking? (Note: you can't stud tires once they've been driven on; you have to do it when they are new).

I could see how they might be a good tire in warm winter city conditions like southern Ontario ... even in the lower mainland of BC, where they would just throw on the chains when the snow fell and the ski hill beckons. They're more like typical "Norway" weather areas when you think about it (coastal climate winter). Just don't think of leaving the city or the limited-access highways.

If we're going to assume European tire types are worth looking at, I know now that I don't need "Norway" tires, I need "Sweden" tires.

I'd even go as far as saying they're not "real" winter tires; they're more like all-season tires that do better in winter than typical all-seasons.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

I've been using Nokian WRG2 SUV on my AWD Toyota Highlander since last fall, and bought them on the recommendation of friends who live in Alberta and use them on their AWD Highlander. They do a lot of driving. I do a lot of driving. 

I loved them last winter. Last winter I did a lot of driving in the interior of BC and into Alberta, where I experienced everything from 18" of snow on the road to -40° temperatures. Encountered my first snow of this season two weeks ago during whiteout conditions on the Coquihalla, when traffic was down to one lane, very icy and snowy conditions. Stuck to the road like glue. 

I have had absolutely no reason to regret my decision. 

But perhaps it's the AWD Highlander that's the key.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Gerbill said:


> I'll do as always - just run the all weather radials............


Same here in eastern Ontario. Here's another winter tyre tip: when the weather is bad - stay home. This is a 'condition' in every project contract I sign..


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Different tires:
Nokian Hakkapeliitta LT
Nokian Hakkapeliitta WRG2 

I was only able to run the LTs for two good seasons before they suffered a very noticeable and rather abrupt drop in performance which became obvious half way through the third. I put 18K on them before I replaced them last fall, with about 80% of that under snowy conditions (I don't drive at all for 5~6 months every summer). Tire wear shows normal patterns, with no scalloping on the edges or uneven side to side wear, with decent tread depth of 10/32 (16/32 new) across the entire tread, but there are tiny chunks of rubber about the size of a half grain of rice coming off the tread area.

One tire had a sidewall belt separation (a "tire hernia") and was replaced at around 6,000 Km under warranty.

The rubber comes off in a kind of triangular slice, smooth in the direction of travel and broken on the back side, kind of like if you made a 30 degree cut in a piece of crumbly cheeze and lifted the knife. They're a directional tread tire so they only roll one way. There are hundreds of little pits in each tire now.

Wear indicators are still in the "go" range. They are Q rated (160KmH) and Load Range C/104 (900 Kg/Tire) in a vehicle that never goes faster than 110 KmH (the speed limit here) and weighs, with me and a tank of gas, at just under 2000 Kg. They are true Light Truck tires, not P-rated and were not cheap; in fact they were the most expensive tires I've ever bought for the truck.

Other LT-rated Ice radials I've used on the same vehicle lasted 4+ seasons.

The WRG2's are a different tire in may respects, and hopefully your experience will be better than mine. If not, well, at least they should work well this winter for you.


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## 850 (Apr 24, 2008)

My personal preference for winter tires are the Bridgestone blizzaks. I stand by them. They are quite simply top of the line, next to the Michelin X-Ice. Why go cheap with tires when they are the most important component with any car?


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

The 2009 winter season Blizzak WX60's are supposed to be much improved over previous versions according to tests, as are the new Michelin X-Ice ix2. Along with the Conti's I chose, all three have the winter compound all the way to the base (previous tires were winter compound for about 50% and standard rubber below that; and some models of 09 season tires are still that way).

It should be noted that Blizzak, X-Ice, WinterContact etc are names applied across a line and not every model is constructed or performs the same.

If anyone is interested, 4 Conti ExtremeWinterContact 195/65R15 91T and 4 new steel rims in 15 x 6.5 (a -1 downsize from stock) cost me $822.17 from TireTrends out of Vancouver. Price includes mounting, balancing with a Hunter GSP9700 loaded balancer, Nitrogen inflation, shipping, and GST.

Anyone wondering which size tires to use for a downsize (taller, narrower tires work better in snow & ice) there's a great tool at the Miata Garage site. You can also check out 1010Tires out of Vancouver for mail-order tires (they don't sell Conti's though).

Some people order from TireRack in the US; although shipping heavy items like tires across the border can be a hassle, and there's a 7% duty if the tire wasn't made in North America. Even if you don't want to order from them, they have great tools and resources.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

2" of snow equals 100 cm? You sure about that? I seem to recall 100 cm _being about a metre_.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

fjnmusic said:


> 2" of snow equals 100 cm? You sure about that?


Good question.

1" = 2.54cm....

2" = 2.54 x 2 = 5.08cm = ~5cm...


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... 2" of snow equals 100 cm? You sure about that? I seem to recall 100 cm being about a metre. ..."

It was originally 100 mm, or 4". I just didn't like the gap between 2" 50mm and 4" 100mm, and more than 2" isn't really light snow in my books, so I reduced it to +/- 2" and what should have been +/- 50mm.

Obviously, I missed an edit; there was a lot of cut-and-paste building the poll. Corrections are always welcome, even though I can't correct the poll now.

Anyway, I've seen some of that "lake effect" snowfall stuff, so perhaps 100 cm isn't that far off the mark for southern Ontario anyway ;-)


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## chimo (Jun 9, 2008)

I have some Michelin X-Ice2s. Just purchased them. Getting the new car tomorrow so I will install them then.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Anyway, I've seen some of that "lake effect" snowfall stuff, so perhaps 100 cm isn't that far off the mark for southern Ontario anyway...." We don't get "lake effect" snow, just snow off of the Atlantic Ocean. We once got 83cm in a 30 hour period as a low stalled over St.John's and keep pumping in snow off of the ocean.  St.John's was shut down for nearly two days as we dug out, so snow tires were not much of a factor on that day.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Went with a generic brand of winters as they were all that was available in my size. Overall a very major improvement over all seasons. 

Being retired (pun intended) allows me the luxury of just staying home on days like today when the roads are really bad. Believe me I take full advantage of that perk.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Are people really getting lots of bad weather already all across the country?

We just had our first dusting on Tuesday, and some light overnight stuff a few days since, but I drove to Alberta the weekend before and it was blizzard as soon as you crossed into Alberta and blizzard back until about an hour west of Saskatoon (about 20 minutes out of Saskatoon, not a hint that snow even existed, in the air or on the ground).

My first hour in Calgary we counted 17 cars either colliding with someone else or running up onto someone's yard, on the drive to the hotel (SE Calgary). Apparently there's been snow in AB for weeks. Some of those guys should be reading the Snow Tires thread ;-)

I finally hunted down the two shovels and two brooms that are my winter arsenal yesterday. So far I've only needed the corn broom. Daytime temps are staying below 0C for the first time last week, so that's as good a sign as any that winter has finally arrived here.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

40cm of snow blown about by 100km/h winds made driving impossible yesterday. But, today the roads are clear with some slick spot which really require good snow tires. Of course, with a chest-high mound of snow at the end of the driveway, I am not going anywhere just yet.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Would love to hear about how the X-ice2's work for you, chimo. What part of the country do you drive in?


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## Griz (Apr 2, 2008)

Just put a set of brand new Nordic Tracs from CT on my truck.

I was pleasantly surprised to see the tread is now very similar to the X-ice tire (and others). LOTS of siping in a design that mimics the successful Bizzaks and X-ice.

However, the damned nice thing was that these puppies can ALSO be studded!!!! 

So I have effectively X-ice-type rubber WITH studs! 

I paid 630 bucks for 4 235/75/15's. I think I would have paid more for the X-ice or Blizzaks (and I don't think you can stud them...maybe the Blizzaks).

I did these same tires a few years back and was rather unimpressed with the blocky winter tread. The studs did most of the work. I ran the same brand but without studs on my car and they did not fill me with the confidence of the studs.

Again, I have the same tires, as described above for my truck, on my car sans studs and even without the studs I can feel these grab the road much better when I need them.

Usually I'm not a fan of CT stuff, and technically these are not - they're Goodyear (not even a big fan of Goodyear either), but I LIKE these.

I had them put them on a set of extra rims. They offered to put them on my truck and seemed 'miffed' when I laughed and said I'll do it myself before I let CT touch my vehicle. Seriously, I'd rather jack my truck up an do 20 lug nuts before letting those butchers even think about my vehicle.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

We get much harsher winters out west and studded tires have been banned for years now. I wonder why they allow them in eastern Canada? They do much damage to pavement on streets and highways, and unless you plan on ice racing, are not necessary as evidenced by our winter mobility without them.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

Sinc: We get drier, colder, blowier winters in the prairies, but they get more & wetter snow in the east. We can count on the winds to blow our snow into drifts, generally off the roads, but it's just a different scenario with the wetter snow they get. The snow at my sister's in Ontario reminds me of what we call 'spring snow' - compacts really well, makes good snowballs and snowmen, but can't be moved with a broom like prairie snow can be.


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## Griz (Apr 2, 2008)

SINC said:


> We get much harsher winters out west and studded tires have been banned for years now. I wonder why they allow them in eastern Canada? They do much damage to pavement on streets and highways, and unless you plan on ice racing, are not necessary as evidenced by our winter mobility without them.


Sorry Sinc, have to call you on a couple of fronts.


A. harsher in the west....not necessarily. Lived in BC, Alberta, SK for decades. Lived in various eastern locales in Canada for several years as well. Different conditions IMO. Apples and oranges, or both equal fruit. I'd actually _rather _drive in the west during the winter. But of course that's all dependent upon what Mom Nature is handing out at any given time and where. I've experienced winters on both sides - and there's no damn difference. Just further to fall if you go off the Icefield's Parkway vs say only a 50' drop in Northern Ontario, or the Maritimes.

B. Studded tires are banned only in Ontario I believe (last I checked anyway). CBC punched holes in the idea that studs wear down the roads (Marketplace, et al). After living in Southern Alberta for years (don't need studs there except for that one day a year really), I can tell you that overweight loads on trucks does FAR FAR FAR more damage to all roads than studs ever do. Same goes in BC. You can clearly see the damage to roads from overweight rigs (far less than in the past thanks to tighter restrictions now), but damage from studs? Zip.

It's always been a perception problem with studs and so many folks just assume that they will damage the roads.

I used studs in BC, Parts of AB, Ontario and the Maritimes. No need for them in many other places in Canada (just in terms of expense - not in terms of percieved damage).

I've lived in big cities and in rural areas. I think if you live in a city like Edmonton, Regina, Winter-peg, Toronto, Montreal, Halifax, etc. you just don't need studs. Good care of the roads is taken care of and studs are a bit much. A good pair of X-ice or Blizzaks will do for those patches of ice at the stop signs. 

Interestingly, there used to be a set of tires where they imbeded crushed walnut shells into the rubber. All the physicists on the board will get this immediately as a neat idea (walnut shells have a high coefficient of friction against ice.). I always wondered why they never took hold. The logic is/was sound I thought.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I clicked on every single poll answer except for severe dry cold pavement. 

I'm running on Toyo Observe G-02 Plus this year, I've only run them through light snow so far so too early to tell how they'll do with the severe stuff.










I had Yokohama iceGuard iG20s last year, they were great. My only hope is that the Toyos do just as well on ice as the Yokohamas.

Studded tires are the best defence against black ice, but are unfortunately overkill in the areas that experience black ice. Advances in studless winter tire technology is slowly closing that gap to the point where they can fare almost as well as a studded tire. The Nokian Hakkapelliita Eco-Stud is supposed to do very little damage to pavement, but I'm more worried about the increased stopping distance on dry pavement. Metal on cold asphalt doesn't provide much friction methinks.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

gordguide said:


> The 2009 winter season Blizzak WX60's are supposed to be much improved over previous versions according to tests, as are the new Michelin X-Ice ix2. Along with the Conti's I chose, all three have the winter compound all the way to the base (previous tires were winter compound for about 50% and standard rubber below that; and some models of 09 season tires are still that way).


Below 5/32", winter tires are no longer effective in snow even if it had rubber compound.


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## Freddie (Jun 27, 2004)

Lets not forget that their are 2 types of winter tires - Snow Tires and Ice Tires.
So choose accordingly to your area. 

I have just purchased my third set of Blizzacks (DM v1) and these certainly are an improvement on dry roads, can't comment on snow/ice yet but can in a day or two.

The cheapest winter tire is better than the most expensive all season when the weather gets bad.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Actually, there are four types of winter tires.


Studless snow and ice tires, tend to provide good to very good snow and ice traction and adequate dry and wet traction. I consider this category the all-season of winter tires as they are meant to tackle all sorts of winter conditions. 
Performance winter tires, tend to provide adequate to good snow and ice traction, and good to very good dry and wet traction.
Snow tires, tend to provide very good to excellent snow traction and adequate to good ice traction, with poor to adequate dry and wet traction. Some snow tires are studdable to upgrade ice traction to very good to excellent, at the expense of dry and wet traction.
Studded snow tires, tend to provide very good to excellent snow and ice traction, but very poor wet and dry pavement traction.

For most purposes, I tend to steer most people towards the studless snow and ice tires category if they wish to drive more conservatively in the winter and some people into the performance winter tire category if they wish to take advantage of dry and wet weather when streets are cleared.

If there were an ice tire category, only the Michelin X-Ice 2 would be in it. Its ice traction category is phenomenal even if you compare it to a studded winter tire, but the tread just isn't aggressive enough to tackle deep snow.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... If there were an ice tire category, only the Michelin X-Ice 2 would be in it. ..."

Perhaps you meant that the X-ice2 is in "a category by itself" performance wise. I would love to hear more, though, about your experiences and ratings. Tires are like underwear ... everyone has different budgets, needs, ideas of comfort and practicality, and we don't wear the same styles everywhere ... climate plays a huge role. And then there is size itself to deal with. There is no "one size fits all".

It's certainly not the only Ice radial tire, and Michelin came late to the game ... the Ice radial was developed in Japan by Bridgestone and Toyo to deal with treacherous ice conditions, worse than almost anywhere in Canada, found in the northern islands of Japan. The first ice sipes appeared on the Blizzak in 1988; the first cold weather compounds in 1992. For most of the last two decades, Ice radials were only sold in Canada and Japan.

I began using Ice compound tires in 1992, first on my 3/4 ton GMC, and they cost more than $280 a tire at that time, which was about $100 more than a premium M&S tire did for that vehicle (Load Range D 16.5"). Neither Bridgestone nor Michelin offered ice radials in medium duty truck tires until very, very recently, so I've never used either of these two brands. If you use the X-ice2's, your review would be very welcome.


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## Griz (Apr 2, 2008)

gordguide said:


> If you use the X-ice2's, your review would be very welcome.


Yes! Second that!

For you folks in the GTA and east...if you manage to drive home in one piece today - I guess you'll be able to tell us.

Stay safe please!

**And slow down of course. Off topic a bit, everyone should sit down and do the math on just how much time you gain/lose by driving 10km, 20km, etc faster than you should. 

See how much sooner it gets you there. Not by much at all! 

Also, braking distance is non-linear when you increase your speed (ie braking distance at 80kph is let's say about 200 units of measure, at 100kph, you'd figure that it would be around 240 units....*NOT!!!!!!* It's actually around *350!!!!!! *

So for an increase in a lousy 20 kph you just added 75% MORE distance needed to stop. And how much time do you save? Bet it's not even 5 minutes.

Now over 100 km what does that equate in how much time you saved vs how much risk?

Now, here's the real brain teaser: In crappy road conditions - how hard is it to do this math with one hand over your carotid artery while the other feels around for the piece of metal that's embedded in your chest as your consciousness fades down to a pinprick and you wonder what they'll tell your kids? 

Try it with a calculator too! It's still pretty difficult to calculate!


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Note that even with winter tires, your stopping distance is up to 3 times greater on snow than summer tires on dry pavement. Winter tires provide peace of mind as long as you provide due diligence. 

From Inside Line...
Tire Test: All-Season vs. Snow vs. Summer


























The tires tested were Michelin Pilot Exaltos high performance summers, Michelin MXM4s OE all-season tires, Michelin X-Ice Xi2s premium winters (although some argue that the X-Ice is an ice tire, not a snow tire, Bridgestone Blizzak WS-60 will stop in 121 feet from 60mph for example as tested by the State of Alaska).

Had they used performance all-seasons, instead, the dry and wet tests would've been better but snow performance worse. It's interesting they never test all-season tires on a snowy hill, look up on Youtube for Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver snow drivers to see why.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I use Dunlop WinterSport M3 DSST tires (17") and do the change over myself. Have worn these for three seasons and they have plenty of tread. Will likely need to replace them next year as soft rubber compound does degrade over time. Bought from TireTrends on alloy replicas. Not sure if this precise tire is still made but they've been great.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

The problem here in St. John's is that we can get all sorts of road conditions in just one day. For example, tomorrow morning we are getting about 5-10cm of snow ....... followed by about 5cm of ice pellets ......... which will be followed by sleet ........... then up to +4C and rain .......... and then it will freeze overnight. So, I find the best thing to do is just let the car sit in the driveway.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> "Anyway, I've seen some of that "lake effect" snowfall stuff, so perhaps 100 cm isn't that far off the mark for southern Ontario anyway...." We don't get "lake effect" snow, just snow off of the Atlantic Ocean. We once got 83cm in a 30 hour period as a low stalled over St.John's and keep pumping in snow off of the ocean.  St.John's was shut down for nearly two days as we dug out, so snow tires were not much of a factor on that day.


True that Dr.G. We call those NorEasters in Atlantic Canada, when it comes to NorEasters and the two words you never want hear, Stalled and Intensifying here are the results of such events http://atlantic.hazards.ca/search/search-e.html?user=H&who=A&class[]=137


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> The problem here in St. John's is that we can get all sorts of road conditions in just one day. For example, tomorrow morning we are getting about 5-10cm of snow ....... followed by about 5cm of ice pellets ......... which will be followed by sleet ........... then up to +4C and rain .......... and then it will freeze overnight. So, I find the best thing to do is just let the car sit in the driveway.


I call those weather events the four season storm or $h!t from the sky.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

in the ottawa area, we get all sorts.

that said, i bought some Kumho winters for my Tacoma. felt the all seasons were slipping a bit more than usual last winter.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL said:


> True that Dr.G. We call those NorEasters in Atlantic Canada, when it comes to NorEasters and the two words you never want hear, Stalled and Intensifying here are the results of such events http://atlantic.hazards.ca/search/search-e.html?user=H&who=A&class[]=137


I hear you, BigDL. Interesting reading that "In Moncton in 1992 160 cm of snow fell from a single event which lasted for 4 days." In 2001, we received 153cm of snow in 9 days, but for five of those days, the winds roared about at over 100km/h, and caused drifts up to the second floor windows of homes.

So, we share a great deal in common. Paix, mon ami.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> I hear you, BigDL. Interesting reading that "In Moncton in 1992 160 cm of snow fell from a single event which lasted for 4 days." In 2001, we received 153cm of snow in 9 days, but for five of those days, the winds roared about at over 100km/h, and caused drifts up to the second floor windows of homes.
> 
> So, we share a great deal in common. Paix, mon ami.


151 cm fell within 28 hours on a Saturday into Sunday by noon. I walked 5km to work at Midnight at the height of the storm. I feared I might be electrocuted by arcing electrical wires however I realised the flashes of blue light were not from electrical wires but was lightning. An event that happens in really severe snow storms according to a chat I had with David Phillip on a call in program on CBC Radio 1's Maritime Noon.

Check out the maps below the "article" and see often Moncton gets 25 cm of Snow or more.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Amazing, BigDL. The worst one day storm was 83cm of snow in a 30 hour periods, blown about by 110km/h winds. Why does Moncton get such severe snow? We get pounded here in St.John's due to our being practically right out in the Atlantic Ocean (when I go up on my roof to shovel off the waist-deep snow, I can see the Atlantic), but is not Moncton in a bit off of the NB coast?


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> Amazing, BigDL. The worst one day storm was 83cm of snow in a 30 hour periods, blown about by 110km/h winds. Why does Moncton get such severe snow? We get pounded here in St.John's due to our being practically right out in the Atlantic Ocean (when I go up on my roof to shovel off the waist-deep snow, I can see the Atlantic), but is not Moncton in a bit off of the NB coast?


A breeze from the Nor East starts as a low pressure area over the relative warmer waters of the North Atlantic/Gulf Stream. Travels in a counter clockwise direction (turns left) up over the relatively colder and often frozen waters of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence moisture condenses and drops in from the North East as snow. When the storms stall they snowblow the vast quantities of fluffy on to south east NB and the north shore of NS


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL said:


> A breeze from the Nor East starts as a low pressure area over the relative warmer waters of the North Atlantic/Gulf Stream. Travels in a counter clockwise direction (turns left) up over the relatively colder and often frozen waters of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence moisture condenses and drops in from the North East as snow. When the storms stall they snowblow the vast quantities of fluffy on to south east NB and the north shore of NS


BigDL, I know all too well what a Nor'Easter is and how it is formed. I just did not think you would get pounded as you do from these "snow bombs". Back in the Winter of 2000/01, we would get 20-35cm storms and then a two day break, and another such storm, and a few days break, and then another and another and another ............. all adding up to 21 feet of snow.

When David Phillips was here in Sept., he warned us that the same conditions that existed back there were replicating itself this winter, and we could see a repeat of that winter ............. or worse. We shall see.

In that winter, my car averaged less than 100km per month of use. When I got my snow tires taken off on May 1st of that year, they were amazed at Toyota at how little I had driven over the winter. When my neighbor's 4X4 pickup truck, which is powerful and built like a tank, could not make it up our street, my little Echo stayed in the driveway.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> BigDL, I know all too well what a Nor'Easter is and how it is formed. I just did not think you would get pounded as you do from these "snow bombs". Back in the Winter of 2000/01, we would get 20-35cm storms and then a two day break, and another such storm, and a few days break, and then another and another and another ............. all adding up to 21 feet of snow.
> 
> When David Phillips was here in Sept., he warned us that the same conditions that existed back there were replicating itself this winter, and we could see a repeat of that winter ............. or worse. We shall see.
> 
> In that winter, my car averaged less than 100km per month of use. When I got my snow tires taken off on May 1st of that year, they were amazed at Toyota at how little I had driven over the winter. When my neighbor's 4X4 pickup truck, which is powerful and built like a tank, could not make it up our street, my little Echo stayed in the driveway.


I remember the news images that winter. Hope you get off a bit easier this year. 

Living within walking distance of groceries and work comes highly recommended.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

When I first mentioned Nor'Easters as our Lake effect snow that is pretty much the case. Except we don't have a lake of course just the big pond

I have seen my back yard fill with snow that a commercially produced metal swing set 1.85 meters 6 ft. high was below the top of the snow.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

eMacMan said:


> I remember the news images that winter. Hope you get off a bit easier this year.
> 
> Living within walking distance of groceries and work comes highly recommended.


Yes, they were carting the snow from all around St.John's and dumping it into the St.John's Harbor just to get rid of it somewhere.

I live within walking distance of groceries, but since I work from home, I don't need to go far to work.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, they were carting the snow from all around St.John's and dumping it into the St.John's Harbor just to get rid of it somewhere.
> 
> I live within walking distance of groceries, but since I work from home, I don't need to go far to work.


The communities of Metro Moncton no longer dump snow into the Petticodiac River for environmental consideration. They have snow dumps in various parts of town one can be seen from the Trans-Canada Highway near the Caledonia Industrial Park exit if you are passing by.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Second Season on studded tires bought Hankook Winter I*pike. No I am not Ipike fan because of Apple

Tires can be seen hereWelcome to Hankook Tire International Website


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

BigDL said:


> Second Season on studded tires bought Hankook Winter I*pike. No I am not Ipike fan because of Apple
> 
> Tires can be seen hereWelcome to Hankook Tire International Website


Boy that site is pathetically slow. Probably some useful information elsewhere on the site but I am not nearly that patient.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

We can use studs in SK. Some provinces have seasonal restrictions on studded tires.

AB, SK, and Yukon Territory: no restrictions.
BC: Oct 1 to April 30 allowed
PQ: Oct 15 to May 1 allowed.
NL: Nov 1 to Apr 31 (??? ... those crazy newfs ...) allowed.
MB: Oct 1 to April 30, ceramic or ceramic core only (no steel studs).
ON: You need to read the regulations. Too many to list, but the short answer is you need to live in Parry Sound or further north, tire dealers in those areas are allowed to sell the approved kind of stud, and visitors can use any kind of studded tire as long as you don't stay more than 30 days. That also means if you live in Parry Sound, cruising Toronto on studs is fair game.

Studs are useful if you need them, but I don't see the point of studding high performance winter tires like Nokians or Michelins; you give up virtually all the handling attributes you paid for. Wet cornering and wet or dry braking is particularly poor; the $39 Wal-Mart specials will stop faster on anything that isn't snow or ice.

I would start with a good mud/snow tread and stud them if necessary to deal with ice. These generally are mid-priced or even low-priced tires; no need to go special compound and pay the big bucks.

As for the ground walnut shells, I think the manufacturers use the same idea but have just found improved materials to use; the performance Blizzaks embed some kind of nanotech hollow tube thingy, for example. If I remember right, the walnut shells wore quickly and performance fell after relatively low wear.

My tire quest ground to an abrupt halt when TireTech phoned and said they don't have any 15" steel rims for PTCruiser, which also means nothing for every second VW/Audi on the road and some Mercedes-Benz as well. Apparently the units they had in stock were mislabeled from the supplier. The good news is they took the time and care to read the data stamped on the rim, which I think shows they are good people to trust with your ride. Today (2 days later) they're out of 16's for that application too. They tried and can't get more, so I had to cancel the order.

1010 tire has them, at $100 more a set of 4, but I don't get the same vibe from them as I do with TireTech, and they don't sell Conti's.

I checked out a set of Blizzaks and X-ice2's with steel rims at 1010, but the bill came up $300 higher than TireTech, and they couldn't promise to deliver them in less than 10 days (ordinary ground shipping is usually about 2 days from Vancouver to here). They charge extra for shipping, and want $50 to mount the tires, both are free at TireTech.

For a hundred bucks less, all in (set of new lug nuts, hub centering rings, mounted, balanced on the same fancy balancer TireTech uses, shipping, taxes, duty, brokerage, they even pay the SK recycling levy) I ordered a set of Rial alloys and the Conti's from Tire Rack in the US. I already knew that Canada imposes a 7% duty on tires and rims made outside of NAFTA, and when you do the math it works out to exactly what they charged me.

One thing I noticed at both 1010 and Tire Rack, is user reviews tended to say the Michelin X-ice2's were good at every winter condition with one exception: there was lots of grumbling that they were poor in snow, with some saying even light snow. You have to read unsolicited user reviews carefully, because some people just plain don't know what they're talking about, so that's not a deal-breaker for me, but it's worth looking into further.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Glad you got your tyres Gordguide. These shortages are widespread and my guess is that the recent bad weather in the east will exacerbate the situation because people tend to put off the inevitable. I've used TireRack in the US before. I had a puncture in an RFT that was not repairable (often they can be repaired despite what they shop says - just as long as its not too close to the edge of the tread). They phoned me up to question why I was only buying one as its usually unsafe to replace a single tyre. When I explained the other tyres were less than 2 months old and it was a puncture replacement, they got the tyre to me the same week.

One thing I'd recommend is that people replace their lug bolts (or nuts, depending on the car), every 3 years or so if they use winter/summer tyre pairs. They lose strength with the abuse of being undone and retightened at least twice a year. This is especially true if the swap over is done at a tyre shop as these guys simply use a torque drill which often does not accurately torque the fittings. If you have a torque wrench, its best to redo them after the shop has finished. The shops just minimize the time as far as they can. Also, if any grease gets onto the thread, the torque is thrown off badly and this can lead to significant over-torquing. You do not want a bolt or lug to shear..... re-torquing four wheels takes five mins, tops.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

The X-Ice is a tremendously wonderful ice tire but the tread just is not aggressive enough on snow. 

My Toyo Observe G-02 Plus has a combinaton of ground walnut shells to provide additional ice friction and lamella crystals to wick away water from the ice surface. I have yet to test these tires in real snow. My Yokohama iceGuards last year used nanotubes and absorbing carbon flakes to wick away water from ice, they did quite well on ice and snow, but I didn't go with them this year because I thought that they wore too quickly.

I really only recommend studs if you do a majority of your driving on roads that never get cleared, and I would have to disagree with you with not requiring special compounds for ice and snow. Snow is often not the main culprit, it's ice, and studding tires is just far too noisy especially if you re driving on cleared pavement a majority of the time. I drove my dad's Tacoma with aggressive M+S tires and they were just absolutely useless. Try almost crashing into a house going sideways down a hill.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... I really only recommend studs if you do a majority of your driving on roads that never get cleared, and I would have to disagree with you with not requiring special compounds for ice and snow. Snow is often not the main culprit, it's ice, and studding tires is just far too noisy especially if you re driving on cleared pavement a majority of the time. ..."

I was referring to studding special compound tires. Don't; get what we used to call "winter grips" and stud them instead. You pay a lot for the handling abilities of special compound tires, and with studs, handling is just not going to happen.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

I now have 600 km on the Continental ExtremeWinterContact tires, have just done the re-torque to 100 ft/lbs and pressure was steady at 34 psi, the same as when installed.

The tires are very responsive for a winter ice compound tire, in fact they seem to handle better than the Michelin all-seasons they replaced. Dry traction, steering response, cornering and feedback are all very good. I'm particularly pleased with the steering response on dry pavement; something I did not expect to find at all.

Snow traction and braking is also excellent. Packed snow traction is very good and polished snow/ice traction is good, not as good as the best tires I've driven but not far from them either. Worst is just off idle from a standing start where a bit of wheelspin on glare ice will be experienced, the tires get their solid grip back after a few feet and stay there. On-ice braking is very good, better than simple snow braking on all-seasons.

With a manual transmission, even on ice, you can downshift and engine brake very easily and the tires stay solid and grippy, right up to the last 15 feet or so where you can then apply the brake. It's fun to keep in the powerband in city driving and be ready for the usual surprises in traffic. You can make very good time on the tires going from point A to point B and not worry much about not being prepared for the crazy stuff people do in winter, like cutting you off while motoring 20 km below the limit.

All in all I'm quite happy with the tire and I would expect that most Canadian urban drivers would like them as well, including warmer winter areas like Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal or Halifax.

For more mundane "daily driver" type cars in areas like here where you know you will be driving on snow and ice for 5 months a year, I would probably go with Blizzaks for their better glare ice traction. Those are the tires you put on your daughter's car.

For any decent fun, sporty or performance car, I'd take the Conti's for their better overall handling and performance under all other winter driving conditions, while still giving you a decent amount of glare ice traction; these are the tires you put on your own car.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

I can barely keep up with the repairs this winter let alone buy winter tires. Going to replace the rad in our second car tomorrow after replacing the rad in our other car 2 months ago. Plus there's been a couple other problems as well. Been one of those years.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Well, it took until the 23rd of January but Saskatoon finally had a snowfall more than an inch or two. After two weeks of warm near/above 0C weather, which laid down a nice layer of ice on top of nearly snowless streets, lanes and yards, and where if you left the city, rural areas had no snow cover whatsoever, there is now more than a foot of overnight accumulation of heavy, wet snow, with high winds creating drifts of up to 3 feet.

The PT Cruiser is lowered, and has about 6" of ground clearance, maximum. The front air dam hits the pavement leaving driveways going forward.

Off I go, on the Conti's. So far, nothing has stopped them ... ice, slush, dry weather and freezing rain traction are all well above my expectations and better than any tire I've run so far in winter.

I have to back up to the lane, drive 30 yards through drifting snow, make a right turn, and before I get to the street, I see a 4x4 stuck in a meter high drift in front of me.

There is an empty gas station parking lot to my right. The station closed a year ago, and the lot is drifting and accumulated snow. I take the lot, drive right by the SUV, plowing snow with my front dam all the way and leaving a nice, flat wake flanked by two tire tracks.

The city streets are no better; currently there are a dozen buses stuck somewhere in the city, and transit service has been halted for the day. The Trans-Canada is closed; the highway between Regina and Saskatoon is closed; the city police are recommending no-one travel unless absolutely necessary.

I'm plowing snow off the front dam as I drive; side streets, main streets, whatever.

Everyone is running red lights and stop signs, slowly but deliberately, not daring to stop at the corner. I do. I have to avoid cars and trucks on almost every block, because no-one is stopping and people are sliding or plowing into my lane coming out of alleys, parking lots, and cross streets.

I go to the Canadian Tire store, to pick up an extension cord, and to the milk store to get some 2% for my morning cappuccino tomorrow. A dozen beer for the afternoon NFL game is my last stop.

On the way, I see 4 police cars, lights flashing, heading in different directions. A police cub van is one; I guess the truck is doing patrol today due to the conditions. Normally they just drive to take people into custody with no lights and no siren.

One ambulance. About two dozen abandoned cars.

Nothing stops me, nothing slows me down. I'm plowing snow off the front dam almost all the way, parking lots are no problem, lane changes are no problem, and it's me and a few tall-tired 3/4 tons on the road making progress. A few guys give me thumbs up. I can accelerate faster than the big four wheel drives.

Coming home, the SUV has managed to free himself. I decide not to take the same route I took through the parking lot, and go for the lane, because the parking lot is now a real parking lot; there are 4 neighborhood cars there now that weren't there an hour ago, with people deciding to leave them there rather than drive the last block to their snow-covered front or back parking spots.

Once I commit, I realize that the SUV had been pulled out backwards; the drift remains in my path, for about 10 feet.

I can't make much speed, as it's a tight turn into the lane with poles on both sides. Away I go. The drift stops me, with snow up to the Chrysler Wing logo on the PT.

I back up; no problem. I'm planing the snow flat between the tire tracks. In I go again.

I'm stuck. I get out, have a look. I've made it half way, but snow is now packed underneath the vehicle solid from front to back. I walk home to grab a shovel, about 100 yards.

Two minutes, and I've cleared an area about a meter ahead of the vehicle. There is still about 2 meters of high drift I don't bother with. I get back in the PT and turn the key.

I'm able to move forward through the area I've cleared, and then without hesitation, back up right to the street, rolls of snow coming out from under the vehicle, smoothly plowed at the height of my front bumper.

I take a run, in first gear; I can manage about 5 Km an hour steady but no faster. Through the 2 meters of unshoveled snow I go, the drift higher than my headlights for a bit, steady and no spinning to speak of.

I drive through the drift, make the left, again, between two poles to my lane. Another 30 meters and I'm making the turn into the yard, and right beside my truck. It's still snowing, at a steady cm or so per hour rate.

I've rarely had such good snow traction in any vehicle, let alone a lowered one. I've traveled about 15 Km through unplowed heavy snow, on ice covered pavement. Not one issue stopping, and with the snow, even better traction leaving at the light.

There is oversteer, like all FWD vehicles, and the snow pushes the car around, but I have traction at will if I just lift the throttle and twist the wheel; the car just pulls into the turn. I can swing the back end through some very tight spots, without having to slide it and risk hitting something or spinning into a sideways attitude.

Not once do I have to use that familiar winter snow technique of countersteering under power to go straight.

There is no side plowing to the outside from the wheels, the car just tucks in and the rear follows. When you need it, a little wheelspin takes you through unplowed snow straight and true, at a steady, workmanlike pace. You don't have to go fast and use momentum; it just pulls.

Even when you spin, the tires never break traction; a steady foot and the tach never runs away, forcing you to back off and lose momentum. Bite-sized chunks of snow fly past from front fender, going high past the side window. spitting off the tires when you put power to the front wheels, chewing through the snow as they go.

I've owned tires that equal them on ice. The tests say the Bilzzaks do just a tiny bit better on ice, a couple of feet better stopping distance. They're better than any snow tire I've ever driven on dry pavement or wet pavement; good solid positive steering without any of that squishy, slow steering response typical of winter tires.

They exhibit positive, predictable braking with short stopping distances, another dry pavement problem with winter compounds and patterns they have seemed to conquer.

And now I learn they are outstanding, better than any ice radial I've ever used by a huge margin, on heavy snow.

The Continental SupremeWinterContact's are highly recommended. Anywhere.


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