# A Frustrating Day on the Job - Graphic Design



## Irie Guy (Dec 2, 2003)

I know it's a poor workman who blames his tools but...

After 7 years of being self-employed I am in need of gainful employment again. I interviewed with a firm this past week and today was to be a day on the job to see how I can handle things. In the interview I was told I would be working on am iMac. I though great, my home machine is an iMac FP 17" w. 768 MB Ram. Anyhow much to my dismay I was put in front of a Dalmatian iMac w. a mere 128 MB RAM running Panther.

The programs to be used were Quark 4 (in Classic), Illustrator 10 and Photoshop 7. I know it's not very Mac of me but I am also very used to my 3 button scroll mouse and I was working with the 1 button Pro mouse. I found the whole situation rather frustrating as I waited for screen redraws in Quark and had to deal with Illustrator plodding along like it was in thick goo.

I always thought the professionals used the good machines.

Ob La Di, Ob La Da

[ April 23, 2004, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Irie Guy ]


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

Sorry to hear your disappointment - I don't blame you.

"I always thought the professionals used the good machines."

"Real" professionals do.


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## The Librarian (Apr 11, 2003)

irie guy,

unfortunately, mississauga is right. if you need the steady cheque (and who doesn't) you might want to bite the bullet and use their equipment, but there's nothing worse than being expected to perform on sub-par machines. i've been there and i'm glad i'm not there now.

doesn't sound like there's too much choice in paisley, ontario, but if you can, shop around. if not, seriously...bite the bullet, pressure them (politely) to at least get you some more ram, and collect your cheque. that set-up sounds insulting, but it's also part of working for a living, i suppose. hang in there.


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## spinz (Feb 1, 2003)

Basically its all about the money.

None of these places want to spend money on something that has been working for them. You have to delicately (subconsciously maybe?) convince them that production will be faster and better if the upgrade in some way. Whether its RAM or just a better used G4 or something.

Oddly enough I've been self employed for 7 years as well and just started a "regular" job again. My pain is that I work on a PC ... I feel filthy


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## mose (Jan 14, 2001)

Sometimes ya gotta kill what you eat. No point in going against the grain and ruffling feathers trying to get a client to upgrade - unless they see the benefit.

The bright side is that if you are on an hourly... older gear sometimes takes longer to render, import, transfer etc etc

just keep singing the $$$$$$$/hour/wait tune.

Unless ya bill by project. Oooops!


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## spinz (Feb 1, 2003)

yeah I agree about getting the $$ out of them for your rendering/set up time ... but if they are a busy place and keep watching you on deadlines and stuff it could get real annoying watching your work stack up when you could finish in half the time on just your home computer


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## dmg (Feb 4, 2003)

take their money

keep looking for something better

you owe them nothing


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

It's hard to imagine any truly "professional" firm would work on a machine so illsuited to contemporary workflow.

I concur it's not your problem, but it could become your problem when they're breathing down your neck to get things done.

Ruffled feathers be damned tell them they need new or at least newer hardware.


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## Irie Guy (Dec 2, 2003)

Don't get me wrong, I actually appreciated the opportunity today. It was strange however I was originally scheduled to just work the morning 9-12 but then that turned into a full day. I still do not know however if I got the job or not. 

As far as renumeration goes it definitely is a junior level position but they seem to expect a lot for that rate. I was just glad to give it the old college try. I was a little bit rusty. It's been 6 years since I worked directly in the industry and I have never been a great fan of Illustrator. Unfortunately 90% off my Vector experience has been with years of Corel on the PC side. I also haven't really looked at Quark since I left Sheridan in 93. It's been all Pagemaker which turned into InDesign. 

It's hard to break years of habits. If I do get the job I will at least be sure to bring in my own mouse.


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

I've been freelancing for 15 years and I was invited to apply for a job at a local weekly paper. At first I thought it was for freelance ad design - I've done that in the past for my clients and although sometimes the weekly deadlines and other weird and cruel things that can happen at a paper I decided to give it a wirl.

This was my first real "interview" in 10 years too - here I am in this big boardroom of the weekly paper staring at a PPC 6100/66 (the pizza box), thinking that they have this in here for email, looks, whatever ... never once did it cross my mnd it was something else. Not until the interviewer asked if I was familiar with the Mac platform and software (the usual - Quark, Photoshop and Illustrator) - When I said yes, of course, she said show me on the production system in the boardroom - 

Excuse me? I asked ... she repeated that the 6100/60 was a production machine brought from the layout department and she wanted to test me. I thought she was kidding and I laughed (that didn't give me any bonus points I'm sure). Here I am, my daily system is a MDD Dual 1.25GHz, latest software everything, lot's o' memory, hard drives, etc ... trying to do anything on software and a system older than I am (and I not a spring chicken by any means) - it was torture - I'm sure I asked if I could throw the machine off a cliff so it would do whatever faster. I asked again if this machine was typical of what was in the production department and she says ... get this ... "No we have top-of-line equipment in the department, you as a "junior" designer will start out on equipment similar to what you are being tested on and if you progress to a lead designer you get design on the latest iMac." When I pressed for more information on the iMac, she wasn't sure what I was talking about so I asked "what colour is it?" she said they are all blue as far as she knows.

OK, I've had it - if the iMac is as top-of-the-line as this "production" system is was staring at I would be driven totally mad - high pressure deadlines in a newspaper production office with more than outdated production equipment - I can see myself quitting after a week or two of total madness (this also explains way they are constantly advertising for production help in the classified section). She then tells me I have the experience and qualifications that they are looking for .. great, I think to myself, now how do I turn this job down?

The next statement made it real simple, my first question was what's your renumeration for the position - $10 per hour? Really ... oh and $12 per hour after a 6 month review? This is the going rate? I thanked them for the opportunity for the interview and the experience and mumbled under my breath that their "renumeration" was as antiquainted as the equipment they expected me to work on. Packed up my stuff, told them I would consider the position but I would have to think about it ... remember don't burn any bridges you don't have to ... and left.

I enjoyed the interview, I had been real rusty in that department and I enjoyed the experience but old equipment at an hourly rate less than what I started at when I began my career - like holy sh*t - 20 years ago when I first stared out I was making $14 per hour at a "junior" position and that was barely enough for my bills and family support. 

Is this typical of the wages being paid out there? I've hired the occasional, on-site, temporary designer (usually students) to help when I get really overloaded and I have always paid $14-18 per hour ... am I paying too much?


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

tell them to pick up a used g4 800-1.25mhz.

if your company can't afford this i'd start looking for a new job.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Simon: Yup... this is an alarming trend in the design industry. There's a company in Ottawa, who will be remain unnamed for their sake, who have an entire army of "junior" designers that work for $10/hour. They arrive at work around 9:00 a.m. and leave at 8:00/9:00 p.m. -- every day!

What's frustrating is that customers are flocking to these companies because they offer insanely anti-competitive prices on "design" jobs (I use that term very loosely) with ultra-high speed turnaround with lackluster quality.

They make profit from high sales of production jobs designed by entry-level designers being paid low wages with no benefits. I have a co-workers who used to work with this "company" whom had to contend with an owner with delusions of grandeur, often stealing credit for any ideas for whatever designs would get praise from the client -- a real nutcase. My friend would work overtime a great deal (at least 1/3rd of the year) but would receive no thanks, no recognition for his efforts; when he approached his boss about this (hoping to get a raise for his effort) and was basically laughed at by his boss, his response was: "You're making overtime, aren't ya?"

Needless to say he left a month later. Stress and pressures from absurdly tight deadlines are *not* worth the piddly extra one makes from overtime in a $10/hour job.

The worst part is that there's a dangerous trend of new clients coming to my place of employment looking for better design and marketing strategies who have only dealt with these lick 'n stick shops, that they believe this is how _all_ design firms work -- often leaving everything to the last minute, giving us arbitrary deadlines and not delivering us all the necessary components to fully complete the job until the 11th hour before shipping the files to a service bureau...

... and don't get me started on the clients who want marketing strategies done in a day!


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

This is very interesting.
1. if Apple's didn't last so long maybe their volume sales would be higher.
2. Analysts are disappointed more folks are not upgrading to G5s...whoa boys...they are not even on G4 PowerMacs!
3. Apple (and reselleres) needs to work harder with it's installed base regarding the benefits of faster machines. Opportunity! Sales reps!
4. Some people are just plain dumb and you have to wonder how they are in business. I respect that you have to watch costs, but come on, running Panther on a Dalmatian iMac with 128MB Ram...and expecting you to be productive?
5. I suppose to be fair, the industry has had a tough time the last few years. But still.

The guys are right. Hang in there. It's another job on your resume. Do a Web shop and tell them how cheap some Ram would be, and the difference it would make.


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## MacMunchie (Dec 17, 2003)

I have to agree with Manny Peters on many of the points that he makes, being in the creative illustration and design field for some 20 yrs, I have seen a progessive decline in the quality of design and the low pay that many designers are getting for work these days.

Design schools will accept many students and I dear say that 60% do not have the talent nore skill set to survive in this industry, yet schools charge HUGE fees like $10000 to $16000 and up for teaching individuals the basics, with no preperation for what a creative design studio is looking for.

Many job postings these days are for people with "junior" experience yet you have to know every programming applications as well as every design application, as well as having to work very long unappreciated hours for very low pay.

-Mike


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

Just be sure that if you promise them that you'll work more efficiently with a RAM Upgrade or a new machine that you deliver if they do.


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## BabeBetty (Nov 5, 2001)

> Anyhow much to my dismay I was put in front of a Dalmatian iMac w. a mere 128 MB RAM running Panther.... The programs to be used were Quark 4 (in Classic), Illustrator 10 and Photoshop 7... I found the whole situation rather frustrating as I waited for screen redraws in Quark and had to deal with Illustrator plodding along like it was in thick goo.


Get this: I work for a DAILY paper that also produces a large number of weekly, monthly and annual publications. The typical machine in the Creative/Production departments is a 1st-gen 233 MHz beige G3 with less than 200 MB of RAM. Software? Try Quark 4.0, Photoshop 5.0, Illustrator 8.0 and a lucky few Macs have Acrobat 4.0 installed. OS 9, of course! When newsroom logs in, there often aren't enough legit copies of Quark or PS to allow all to operate. One must run around the building and shut down apps from temporarily deserted desks, in order to do one's job. Many monitors are over 10 years old. Don't even get me started on the rampant crashing.



> my first question was what's your renumeration for the position - $10 per hour? Really ... oh and $12 per hour after a 6 month review? This is the going rate?


The start rate at my workplace for graphic designers (although management insists on insultingly referring to them as "ad builders") is $9.76/hr. After FOUR YEARS, they can work up to $12.72/hr! Many people pay baby-sitters comparably.



> Stress and pressures from absurdly tight deadlines are not worth the piddly extra one makes from overtime in a $10/hour job.


The workplace I'm speaking of WILL NOT PAY for overtime. Employees are pressured to do it, and then take time off "when it slows down." Timid employees (which management make a real effort to hire) just never get their owed time off. The company even tried to NOT record overtime on employees' pay statements; No record of the overtime, no compensation required for extra accumulated vacation time. Only after it was brought to their attention that this was ILLEGAL did they stop this practice.



> Just be sure that if you promise them that you'll work more efficiently with a RAM Upgrade or a new machine that you deliver if they do.


In my experience, management at companies like this frankly don't care if you"deliver" or not. They could not care less about the quality of their products & services, simply running on a shoestring. Their answer to their own sub-standard equipment is to keep applying more pressure to already meat-grindered employees. 



> this is an alarming trend in the design industry


that's for sure!



> take their money
> keep looking for something better
> you owe them nothing


couldn't agree more!


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

Maybe I've been lucky but in my experience I've learned that you have to be mobile and good at what you do to make it this industry.

When I started about 6 years ago I made 20K SALARY! and was worked long hours like a slave, I'm lucky if it worked out to minimum wage,.

After 6 months I moved to a new company and made $15 an hour.

6 months after that I went freelance on the strength of a really lucrative contract. When that contract ran out it was tough for while but I persevered and am now doing pretty well.

Bottom line is keep your eyes open, your skills sharp, and move to new opportunities as they present themselves. Don't get suck in a rut and don't get pidgeonholed. Sure there are a lot of bulls**t companies out there but there are a lot of good ones too who value good designers.


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## däycüs mäximüs (Nov 30, 2002)

i went to school for advertising, specializing in the graphic design aspect-- i learned the trade using beiges hot-rodded by macdoc, then when i graduated 3 years later on the dean's list, i found myself looking for a job starting at 20k.

i said "screw it." i'm at future shop doing the sales thing, been doing it for 3 years now, and am on pace to more than double 20k.

no thanks...


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

> then when i graduated 3 years later on the dean's list, i found myself looking for a job starting at 20k.


This is a problem? We all have to start somewhere. I know $20K isn't very much but you just graduated from school and whoever hires you has to unlearn you everything you have been taught.

I have hired dozens of students over the years and what the teach in design schools and even college has NOTHING to do with real life. Real life is tight deadlines, budgets, printing limitations and profit. Sure you can spend twice the time designing that fancy process colour with 3 spot colours and embossing brochure. Who's going to pay for that? The client (problem is they now expect it for the original budget)? Where are we going to print that? Will the company make any money?

My complaint is that the growing trend for ALL designers is minimal renumeration - I was requested to apply for a position - I didn't hand in a resume nor did I apply for a job - they came looking for me because of my previous experience in dealing with them. I have over 15 years experience in this industry and they offered me a less than reasonable rate for my experience, actually less than what a green designer should get.

Everybody has high expectations on what they should make in the industry. On one hand we have students walking out the doors expecting a minimum of $25 hour + full benefits because that's what they have told they should be making. One the other we have design firms that pay minimum wage to their design staff while expecting the moon in return. Sure the firm has to make money but making money by not paying enough to your staff is just wrong. I stand by my previous statment that a good wage for students just out of college should be $12-16 depending on REAL LIFE experience. I guy like me with all those mistakes, tribulations, and defined experience - $30+ hour.

I can make that easily freelancing, so why would I want to be tied down to one job that pay a third of that - job security? Heh ... I rather take my chances in the dangerous world out there.


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## RC51Pilot (Mar 26, 2004)

This might be off topic, sort of, but I'm a software developer, in particular J2EE, eCommerce and web design etc. Since I also teach I can get a decent price on WebObjects. I was going to pick it up, but I was wondering what the market is like for that platform?

I suppose I could check Workopolis etc. but I thought some of you might know.


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## Scott M (Apr 2, 2004)

Designers, I feel your pain. Low pay and inferior hardware? Been there. I am currently on a break from full time design work, just doing it freelance now and working as a technical writer in my day job. 

I decided to become a designer after spending some years training as an artist, but was unable to attend any local programs, so I did it by correspondence from one of those places that supplies a PC and courseware. Little did I realize at the time that PCs are not used in graphics. And the courseware? CorelDraw and PageMaker: exactly what real world designers DO NOT use.

So since then I have become self-taught in all the major Adobe and Macromedia apps, have owned several Macs and can put together a solid portfolio. Hopefully graphic arts students generally get a better education than I did and if they have any aspirations to do good work, they will understand that they need to avoid the soul-sucking assembly jobs- leave that to the $10/hr kids. If there are no jobs, make ends meet and use your spare time for freelancing until you build enough of a rep to do it full time. It can be done.


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

> This is a problem? We all have to start somewhere. I know $20K isn't very much but you just graduated from school and whoever hires you has to unlearn you everything you have been taught.


Pay your dues, newbie designers need production experience, design schools are just prep work, the real learning begins out in the real world, when you are ready you'll get paid more. If the company you work for won't pay you what you deserve at that point then go to another. 


> I guy like me with all those mistakes, tribulations, and defined experience - $30+ hour. I can make that easily freelancing, so why would I want to be tied down to one job that pay a third of that - job security? Heh ... I rather take my chances in the dangerous world out there.


Agreed, if you can't find what you're looking for working for someone else then you have to create your own opportunities. That is the nature of this business. If you became a designer thinking that you were just going to walk into a high paying job out of school and be treated like a star then you had unrealistic expectations. It takes hard work and perseverance to make it.


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

> This is a problem? We all have to start somewhere. I know $20K isn't very much but you just graduated from school and whoever hires you has to unlearn you everything you have been taught.


Pay your dues, newbie designers need production experience, design schools are just prep work, the real learning begins out in the real world, when you are ready you'll get paid more. If the company you work for won't pay you what you deserve at that point then go to another. 


> I guy like me with all those mistakes, tribulations, and defined experience - $30+ hour. I can make that easily freelancing, so why would I want to be tied down to one job that pay a third of that - job security? Heh ... I rather take my chances in the dangerous world out there.


Agreed, if you can't find what you're looking for working for someone else then you have to create your own opportunities. That is the nature of this business. If you became a designer thinking that you were just going to walk into a high paying job out of school and be treated like a star then you had unrealistic expectations. It takes hard work and perseverance to make it.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Part of the expectations for high-paying design jobs are that certain schools are brainwashing students into believing they'll be making $20/hour with the first job they land!

I took a fast-track design program at Algonquin college to expand my skillset into the more traditional aspects of print design after working the previous 5 years in Multimedia and web -- the teachers were telling every student at the end of the year they should not settle for anything less than $20/hour! Most were with no prior experience (minimal 1-2 yrs. at best for those who did)!

I'm a firm believer that if your talent and skill are exceptional, you shouldn't have a hard time to find a decent-paying position... otherwise, take what you can (within reason -- watch out for sharks and slimeballs) get and work, work, work until you get better. Learn what you can, and exploit it (in a positive and healthy way) and then learn to do it faster.


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

Maybe I should expand my reasoning ... I have been on both sides of the fence as both an employee and employer.

Let me tell you when I was an employer I looked for few things - creative ability, personality, reliability and profitibility. 

Number One - PROFIT ... I have to make money off my employees, If I don't I'm out of business, fast. For every dollar I pay them in salary and benefits there is at least another dollar in costs involved. AND, I should, as a rule, make at least 3 times from that employee as they cost me .. so my business can make money, pay the overhead (office rent, machine costs, hydro, bookkeeping, taxes, etc., etc,. etc.). This rule holds hands with rule 2

Number 2 - Creative Ability ... Real life creativity here. The employee must know how to put things together that look good, that can be produced at a reasonable cost and what the client is looking for in the end. 

Number 3 - Personality ... I work here, other staff work here, you have to fit in with us and deal with clients (maybe). For example, a number of years ago I hired (out of college) a designer who more than impressed me with his skills and abilities - basically knocked me over with his skills and I hired him on the spot. This guy could do everything I asked him to do, he learned the "real life" skills fast and I wouldn't have been more happier to have him as a permanent member of my team except for one small problem .. this guy was the biggest a**hole I have ever met in my life. He was condescending, demanding, rude, vulgar (the most foul language was used for simple conversation). He put on his game face for the interview and got hired, but within a week on job he was "himself". I was sorry to let him go because of his skills, but life is more than money too ...

And lastly Reliability ... You have to show up for work, on time, and ready to work. I have had employees that show up late then take an hour to "get ready". Deadlines don't change because you partied last night. The client doesn't care that your dog was sick, actually they don't care if your child is sick. All they care about is their project, their deadlines and their bottom-line.

As an employee - I worry about just one thing. Money and how much of it will I get and how little do I have to work to get it.

Big difference eh?


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

I am, fortunately, in the enviable position of being a 3-D designer and so can not possibly even contemplate working on something that isn't the latest and greatest. Although I'm unhappy at the moment having to use a stinking PeeCee that crashes at least once a day. Nice and fast, shame about the OS.

Still, had a job interview last week and will be moving on to an Apple friendly environment, ooohhhh...my G5 beckons


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

I am not a graphic designer, but I work in the arts, making and selling handmade crafts. I started as a paste-up and layout artist, and also a sign designer, years ago (yikes!) in the days of Letraset and hot wax, long before Apple was glint in Jobs and Wozniak's eyes.

One thing I discovered was that I just couldn't pump out the stuff fast enough to ever be very successful in commercial art of any kind. I'm just way too picky.

Now I do all my own graphic design for my business, have done some community freebee stuff and the occasional paid work. The last paid job I did, a couple of years ago, I was a little stumped as to how to arrive at a price. So I estimated how much time it would take me, potential Illustrator learning curve excluded, (I usually have to learn at least one new thing every time I use that program), and gave them an estimate of $25 an hour for a logo design and final art with separations. I think it came out to about $125, which was dirt cheap according to an old Graphic Artist Guild book that I had. (Does that group even exist any more?) It took me a lot longer to get the job done than 5 hours, but the final product looked good and was done right.

When I handed my invoice to the client, a wealthy retired women representing the group of wealthy retired people that I did the work for, she balked, saying that she had misunderstood the estimate. She seemed miffed that anyone could charge that much for mere artwork. At this point I dug my heels in and insisted that I get paid or no art. I reminded her that she gladly would pay a mechanic or plumber many times this amount for less time worked. She paid, grudgingly.

Later, when I thought about it, I realized what the problem was. Nobody values the work of artists. I've spent my whole life developing the skills that went into that logo design, from well before art school until now, but the bottom line is, she didn't really need it or care. Someone at an instant sign shop or the budget t-shirt joint that she was getting the logo for, would have charged her just a few extra bucks for the design and would have slapped on some piece of ugly clip art, with some type running around it and made a profit. She probably wouldn't have known the difference.

Man, I should have just taken a few cents royalty on every t-shirt they sold, with my pretty logo selling them. I would have made more than $125.

Since the advent of desktop publishing, with Apple partially responsible, everybody thinks they are designer, with their CD full of MS Word clip art. At least back in the days of Letraset, hot wax and rapidographs, I had a skill that not a lot of people thought they had. Now only those who really know the value of good design will pay much for it.


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## däycüs mäximüs (Nov 30, 2002)

*This is a problem? We all have to start somewhere. I know $20K isn't very much but you just graduated from school and whoever hires you has to unlearn you everything you have been taught. *

well, that was 3 years ago. i needed to pay the bills and i thought a sales job at futureshop would do it. 

for me to leave it now and go take a huge paycut is out of the question. it may work for some people to preservere at a low paying graphic arts job until more money starts rolling in, but it ain't for me. kudos for those who stuck it out and are now raking it in, and loving it.

at my store, there are 2 other graduates from the same advertising program that i finished in. all three of us agree that we're better off here at the "shop."

besides, we get to play with all the new toys!


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## bl:oke (Sep 15, 2003)

This is turning into quite a depressing thread. 

But as some others have mentioned, you have to start somewhere, especially if you have no experience. But at the same time, it's not a good idea to settle for any job if you are working in the creative field. If you are not working for a design studio that generally does good work, with people you can learn from, then you really aren't going gain anything from the experience and move up in the industry. 

It takes a lot of persistence and networking to get a decent job in the industry. But even if it doesn't happen right away, a lot of the established studios (Concrete, Hambley & Woolley, Watt International etc...) accept student interns and freelancers year-round. It's an excellent way to gain experience and have something to put on your resume. 

So there really is no reason to work for one of these crummy sweatshop style design places that Manny P and others have mentioned no matter what the pay is like. 

My design professors and instructors never led us (or brainwashed us) to believe that we would be earning $20+ as junior designers. It was quite the opposite, since most are working professionals, they are usually quite frank about what the industry is like and what to expect. Students should be smart enough to do their own research anyway. I've kept in touch with many grads from my year (2003) and the average rate for juniors these days is $13-$18 at the downtown studios.

A good rule of thumb is to stay at a studio for at least 6 months (for the experience/money) and at that point, if you aren't moving up or learning anything then it's time to look for a new job.


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

I don't find this thread depressing just realistic.

Whether you work for a good studio or a sweatshop right out of school who care's-GET EXPERIENCE. Your first year or so even if you hate it is being paid to learn how to really be a designer.

Experience is HUGE in just about any profession, real world portfolios and student portfolios are vastly different things.

A client of mine summed it up "Design sudents come in with porfolios that make them look like superstars of design because they spent a month working on a single piece." In the real world, especially in a fast paced production house (been there, done that and learned alot,) what you spent weeks on at school you have to turn out in days (if you're lucky) if not hours. Until you can do that you aren't worth the big bucks.

If you have a passion for what you do then persevere. If it matters to you, you will, if you think it's not worth it then you probably aren't in the right business. 

There is a threshold at which you are just getting screwed but remember there are plenty of people out there working like slaves in absolutely sh*t jobs making minimum wage and going nowhere so don't cry foul if you have to start out at $10 or $12 or even less an hour. It's a means to an end, just make your move to something better as soon as you can.

There are also, as has been noted. jobs that will pay better, at least in the short run, but you have to remember that being in any creative field means building a career from the ground up, if it's what you really want then don't be discouraged be determined. Think about where you want to be in five or ten years and work towards making it happen.

I paid my dues in crummy day jobs, and slightly less crummy entry level design jobs and now I'm quite happy where I am. And I much prefer to shop at future shop, and work at home.

There are clients and studios that appreciate good designers, when you get there you won't have to worry much about the ones who don't, they won't be worth your while. You have to get there though...


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Any employer who sees salaries as just an expense is doomed to failure...

Salaries are the cost of doing business. They are {or should be} investments in experience and talent. If you treat your employees as cattle or bodies in a chair, don't be suprised if you wake up one day and find an empty room of computers.

$20K... my god, would you like some fries with that.

Those kinds of pay scales exist for only 2 reasons... CHEAP Employers and Stupid Operators....

I'm sorry if that offends, but if you accept 20K, then the term Ad Builder applies.

Companies do not train... {few might} so the operator is expected to "keep up" with all technologies that the employer might want. If you don't, you can be replaced? Technology cost money, so does life.

As long as users accept meager wages, sweat shops will persist and salesmen who own them will devalue your work.

Not to mention, you can find much less stressful employment for $20K.

I made 26K in '91 and have never looked back. You just have to know what you are worth and refuse to work for insulting wages.
I've quit 3 companies that asked me to take pay cuts... none lasted another year in business.

I'd like to take credit for that, but when the others on staff left too, the companies were unable to meet deadlines and quality suffered. Clients went elsewhere.

What you build is the product... that is what Salespeople sell.
Reliable {and affordable} delivery is what they resell. Hopefully again and again.

Without product, a salesman is just a guy with a phone. You can always be replaced, so don't get cocky. But you can't swing a dead cat by the tail in Toronto without hitting a bunch of salesmen.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

I don't think becoming an intern at a firm to get your foot in the door is the right thing to do, they don't work for free why should we? And as long as they know they can get people to work for free they will never hire full time. Any self-respecting design firm can hire someone under trial basis and know if the person is a fit or not within a week. People have bills to pay too, and they can't expect someone to work for nothing.

I just had to work where I could to pay the bills and wait for my opportunity to come. That's about all one can do in any field.

I made the same analogy as a mechanic once too for a restaurant menu, I asked how much he paid his mechanic an hour to fix his car? Of course his reply was around $70hr, so I then asked why $25hr for me to fix his menu any different? But as long as he can go to a print shop to get this done by a desktop publisher for a cheeper price, quality didn't matter to him. Have fun with your helvetica and times roman clip art menu!


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

If you want a foot in the door, consider night shift instead of working for free.

It gives you your days to find something better, better companies pay more to night workers because established people shy away from nights.

Many companies need night hawks and that is the only way to pay dues with them.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Don't be dissin' Helvetica!


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Yeah,


> Don't be dissin' Helvetica!


When I had my first job, in the '70's, Helvetica was everywhere and on everything. It probably got overused. I had boxes and boxes of sheets of Helvetica Letraset in every variation and point size.

Sometime in the '80's it was determined that Helvetica looked old-fashioned and various serif typefaces took over. I was so happy to see, sometime in the late '90's, that Helvetica and other sans-serif typefaces were re-emerging.

Helvetica's my favourite typeface, I never get tired of looking at a nicely-kerned word set in nice clean Helvetica. Beautiful.

And don't even talk to me about Arial. Blecchh! Just another ugly blot on our culture whose ubiquity we owe to Microsoft. The Scourge of Arial 

And for you pros out there, a test: Arial or Helvetica - a quiz No cheating!


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

A general deterioration of working conditions seems to be taking hold in almost every line of technical work, fewer people doing more work with zero resources. And a glut of talent who will fight to the death to work for food. 

Generally depressing,


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

blame the miseducation system for churning out mediocre grads at a rate far greater than what the job market can absorb.


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## BabeBetty (Nov 5, 2001)

> if you accept 20K, then the term Ad Builder applies. ... As long as users accept meager wages, sweat shops will persist and salesmen who own them will devalue your work.


I don't mean to offend you, JAMG, but this hardly has clout coming from someone in the "GTA". Large metropolitan areas are teaming with opportunities. There are designers who choose, or NEED, to live in smaller cities (due to family reasons, health reasons, etc) where opportunities are often meager. But should that give employers the right to rape them?! There can be the "where else you gonna go" mentality among some companies, and it leaves their employees feeling like they're in a Haitian sweatshop. I just feel it's sad that they can get away with this kind of treatment for designers. It's too bad there isn't more of an "industry standard", like there is for nurses and mechanics, where it's unacceptable to pay designers less than certain amounts for certain levels of experience. Fair is fair.



> Since the advent of desktop publishing, with Apple partially responsible, everybody thinks they are designer, with their CD full of MS Word clip art.


I think Applesauce has a point. It's easy for ANYONE to slap out a ghastly brochure or logo, for example. And to many (but not all) of the clients out there, this has greatly brought down the value of the outstanding design work that trained, talented designers do.

In other words, stupid clients (and stupid employers) have gotten even stupider, thinking that the housewife with the PC & PrintShopDeluxe in her basement can do "just as good a job" as a trained professional.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Please don't take me wrong... Salaries are adjustable with the cost of living in a particular area. I made 26K in Montreal where I could have a palace for what I spend on a Semi in the GTA.

C'est la guerre... Regardless of the actual figure, why would anyone put up with the stress of clients and ever changing technologies and the grief of being compared to a secretary using Publisher or Word in exchange for poor wages.

I made close to that as a Bartender in the West Island while going to Concordia full time.

Some times low pay is the load you must bear working your way up. Some times that is just all the market will provide.

Only you can decide if it is worth it for YOU...

My opinion is that Life is too short to work somewhere you are not happy with. If I can't find good pay at what I do, I'll find something else...


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## BabeBetty (Nov 5, 2001)

I don't get it.

On the one hand, you say that photographers are "taking a beating" because of dabblers with digital cameras. But on the other hand, you're suggesting that designers who aren't "doing OK" are probably hacks or lacking in ambition. Holy double standard!
 

I know designers, like myself, who are making a decent living, but most I know aren't. And it isn't due to lack of talent or brains; It's a market that is unwilling to pay fairly for their abilities.

But I guess it's all dependent on different circles.


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

Not a double standard the two are unrelated.

I don't think that photographers who aren't good or ambitious will make it either, but their market has drastically shrunk from the availability of cheap stock and the digital camera. A case in point, I'm resting my eyes from working on a catalogue for which I am being paid very well yet they are shooting product with a cheap digital and a marketing guy because they don't want to spend a grand on photography. That is a double standard. If you think it costs alot to keep an up to date mac hardware set up for design you should see what it takes to keep a decent photography studio running. 

As far as talented designers not making it, I can't say, maybe you need to raise the bar on what you consider talented, or maybe they don't sell hard enough, maybe they're selling themselves short, maybe they're unlucky, maybe they're in the wrong market and need to move, maybe..., maybe..., maybe...

I'm not saying for a second you're a hack if your not successful, I'm saying it's up to you to find a way to be successful if it's what you really want. The computer has made it far too easy for someone to call themselves a designer when they really don't have the talent and drive, Those are the hacks, if you really believe you have what it takes persevere and work hard and you'll get there.

All the designers I know who are doing well paid their dues and worked through the hard times while others gave up because they didn't make it right away or thought they were to good start at the bottom.


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## BabeBetty (Nov 5, 2001)

The "plights" of designers and photographers are not unrelated. Stock photography has been around for decades; a lot longer than inexperienced PC users with "PrintShopDeluxe."

I totally symphathize with photographers (I know some, as I'm sure you do), whose market has shrunk. However, you maintain that when it comes to designers "it's up to you to find a way to be successful it its what you really want." BUT, when it comes to photographers, you suggest that they are in a worse situation because of "cheap stock". THAT is a double standard.

And I'm all about the hard work and perseverence! I completely agree that nothing worthwhile comes easy. But I know talented individuals who have more than "paid their dues" and are still treated like crap because of the mentality of the market they are in. Thank you for clarifying that there are lots of variables besides talent and ambition that can influence an individual's career - I agree. But you closed with the suggestion that those who don't "make it" are impatient and/or spoiled. (Who let Doctor Laura in here?)









I know you don't mean to make blanket assumptions. Please remember that few areas of Canada have the opportunities of the GTA.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

One thing I've noticed is how liberal the use of "designer" is used with a variety of people out there. My teacher often designated a category between the two: Designers are trained professionals, and Desktop Publishers are the hacks who use clip art and cheap software (I'm paraphrasing.)

If you don't know: 
- what an ascender and descender is, or what a loop, link, bowl, ear and eye are and what they have to do with a font (not to mention the difference between serif, sans serif and slab serif and can name at least 2 other types of fonts);
- tracking, leading, and kerning (and what the difference is);
- the difference between an orphan and a widow;
- negative and positive space;
- what a ragged right is;
- what rivers are;
- basic colour harmonies (name at least 4 of types);
- what PMS stands for (deduct 3000 points if you think it's about that time of month);
- about a hundred other things I could mention...
- ... how to exploit all that knowledge to design a great looking piece...

... you're not a designer. 
















[ April 28, 2004, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: « MannyP Design » ]


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

I dont' want to come off like a hardliner, I'm anything but, I highly encourage anyone to follow their passion, just be realistic about what it's going to take and whether you're really cut out for it...

I actually went to school for animation a long time ago. 

When I graduated the market was flat and in a recession and there were no jobs. This is the whiny, lazy, easily discouraged me talking.

When I graduated the market was flat and jobs were scarce but I persevered did what I had to to make it. This is the realistic and determined me talking, there was no realistic and determined me back then, I didn't make it.

Instead I took a job in construction worked my way up to a pretty good wage and coasted, But I never once not even for a second considered that this was what I would do forever. I became aware of what computers could do in the mid 90s and saved my pennies and bought a good one not really with the intention of becoming a designer but just recognizing that it would vastly increase my ability to do graphics. After a year or so I said f*ck it to construction and shopped what I had learned around. The jobs just happened to be in design so that's what I applied for and I got one. I was worked like a slave, the job sucked but I didn't care because finally my foot was in the door. Not having had any training in design my typsetting sucked, my layout was so so, but I had a flair for photoshop that saved me and turned heads. My other skills came up to scratch pretty quickly and I ambitiously pursued opportunities that presented themselves. Now I do pretty well notwithstanding the fact that when I started Manny Ps list looked like greeked text to me (pun intended). 

The moral is if a lazy failed animator turned construction worker can make it then so can you if you're good (I found out that I was), and determined (if I had been at the start I would have made it alot sooner, in fact I'd probably be an animator not a designer).

I do sympathize with living in a marketplace where the opportunities are scarce, ultimately sometimes you have to move to make it in a given career. Sucks but it's true.


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

> $20K... my god, would you like some fries with that.
> Those kinds of pay scales exist for only 2 reasons... CHEAP Employers and Stupid Operators....
> I'm sorry if that offends, but if you accept 20K, then the term Ad Builder applies.


I think it depends on who you're talking about, if you're a new grad getting out there is the main thing, if you can do it at a good wage then great if you have to take 20K when you first start out then so be it. I started at 20K actually, whithin six months I was making 30K. The year after that I made 50K.

If you're an experienced designer and you're looking at 20K then you have to ask yourself what's going wrong - it's probably because you're afraid to put yourself out there and compete. 



> I don't think becoming an intern at a firm to get your foot in the door is the right thing to do, they don't work for free why should we?


Work for free, definitely not but...
There can be intern positions that offer incredibly good learning experiences, if you can afford to do it. Never done it myself but I wouldn't discount it entirely if I was just starting out.



> In other words, stupid clients (and stupid employers) have gotten even stupider, thinking that the housewife with the PC & PrintShopDeluxe in her basement can do "just as good a job" as a trained professional.


If you're good your portfolio will show the difference easily enough, as for stupid clients that don't want to spend money they've always been around. Are you really afraid of the competition from a housewife?

If you want to see who's really getting killed out there it's photographers competing against both royalty free stock and designers or clients who have decided they are photographers because they bought a $500 digital camera. I know several photographers who are taking a beating in the new marketplace.

All the designers I know, who are any good, are generally doing OK. The ones that were hacks or lacked ambition dissappeared, or maybe they're in a sweatshop somewhere...


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Good story VQ... I find people with some artistic talent (be it painting, drawing, etc.) tend to adapt rather quickly.

Being from an animation background I'm surprised you weren't hired on as an illustrator -- McMillan here in Ottawa has/had a whole department of animators making $15-$20/illustration doing clip art (and other, more challenging pieces as well). A friend of mine used to work there and they would pump out 20-30 or so illustrations per day without breaking a sweat. They would start with B/W sketch, and then use Adobe Streamline to vectorize their art and colour it in Adobe Illustrator.

The firm I work at frequently uses animators for illustration jobs when needed -- most put up a couple of side-projects to supplement their income. They seem to produce a very pleasant and dynamic style that our clients can't get enough of.

That being said, I've noticed that a select group of animators will venture and create their own work -- developing a cartoon (Flash, or a simple comic) and produce their own ideas which sometimes lead to a nice job. Homestar Runner is a good example -- although the guys who work on it aren't animators per sé; Penny Arcade is a games-oriented comic strip that has a pretty strong follow. Both cases allow their creators to do what they love without needing income from a steady job doing someone else's work.


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

Actually I was never really a cartoon style animator, I took the Technical Animation course at Sheridan which had more to do with compositing and specal effects. Problem was most of the jobs for this type of thing were in L.A. and I just wasn't ambitious enough at the time to pull up stakes and go for it.

When I discovered photoshop it was like a godsend allowing me to apply the skills I had learned in this specialized field of animation to static graphics.

Specializing in photoshop gave me edge and allowed me to break into the design industry even though I wasn't formally trained, I had a portfolio that was almost non existant as far as traditional design and layout was concerned but showed much better photoshop skills than most designers. This was enough to build on until the rest of my skills came up to par.

At some point I will probably make a bid to expand my activities into animation and video compositing again, but for the moment I have so much freelance work on the go it's hard to find the time to play around with the necessary software to get good enough to do it.


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## däycüs mäximüs (Nov 30, 2002)

_"...and I much prefer to shop at future shop, and work at home" _

-visual q

nuts to you. it's just to each his own. don't hold your nose up at my job because you think your job is royalty.

in actuality, i get paid too much to deal with crap from people like you.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Ouch!


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

you must be a pleasure to deal with in store, daycus


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

Can you say "chip on my shoulder"?


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I can see how professional photographers and designers are being cheapened by clients who think they can make do with themselves digital camera and clip-art.

I'm a writer. I get to compete with: "I got me a computer, and my teacher learned me to write good in elmentry school."









But I specialize, and so far have been fortunate to find clients and employers who value good writing, and understand what effective communication does. 

Still, when I was looking for ways out of my last hell-hole of a job, it was mighty frightening seeing all the "opportunities" to work for 1/3 my salary. You start seeing the choice as "remain in hell-hole and go postal, or lose the house for failure to pay mortgage."


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

What it comes down to is what will the market bear? If the market is currently supporting sub 20K jobs for designers out of school... that is what the market is.

So long as designers agree to get paid that, that is what they will earn. Just wait until those jobs start getting outsourced to India, Ireland and wherever else jobs are getting outsourced these days.

The simple fact of the matter is... no one can garantee you employment in your feild anymore... it just can't be done. What needs to happen is that the design schools need to start teaching entrepreneurship to its students.

What would happen if design students all started working for themselves... or formed "design cooperatives" out of school. The only difference between a design studio (sweatshop) and a bunch of designers out of school is that the studio has sales people and relationships. Well sales people are easy enough to find... and relationships are easy to build as well.

A little business savy will go a long way. How much do studio charge their clients? more than what they are paying their designers that's for sure.

If a designer is good at their trade, there is nothing stopping them from going into business for themseleves... doing a little bit of "guerilla marketing" and not having to settle for sub $20k jobs at some design sweat shop.

I bet if more designers had that kind of entrepreneurial attitude...that eventually the design shops would have to pay higher wages for people to work for them...

That's until the design work starts going offshore...


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Jonesy: It's kind of a catch 22... the public is willing to pay what it can afford, but when a group of hacks undercut the competition (designers) by offering $15-$20/hour services to steal work from studios who charge $50-$100/hour it undermines not only everyone, but as time progresses people begin to form this misconception that design is a cheap commodity which results in so-so design that takes less than a day to deliver.

I can't tell you how many new clients who come through our doors have no idea, no clue what is really involved in design. They'll grab images off the web and expect us to create something crisp and colourful, but in turn blame us for crappy work when they see how blurry their images are.  

I've been working just under 10 years (5 in just web/multimedia and 4 in graphic design/multimedia). My current employer charges clients approximately $80-$100 for design work. I net 40,000 before taxes. That's about par with in the Ontario region with my experience with the average designer (as per the RGD Ontario.

It's not exactly a lot of money, however current employer really puts the emphasis on rewards at X-mas, staff parties over the summer and X-mas, and the odd freebie Friday off over the summer. Bonuses like this, I feel, top up my salary.

I have often thought about starting my own business, but the right person(s) have yet to cross my path that sparked inspiration.


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

> nuts to you. it's just to each his own. don't hold your nose up at my job because you think your job is royalty.
> in actuality, i get paid too much to deal with crap from people like you.


Sorry Daycus, and I don't think I'm better than anybody.

More power to you if you're happy with what you're doing.

The question is did you or do you really want to be a designer, I mean REALLY WANT TO? If you did/do then you might not be so happy a few years down the road just because you're making good money. Chances are by then or by now you would have been making good money as a designer.

When you're a kid it doesn't matter too much what you do, the future is forever, the envelope shrinks a bit whan you hit your thirties, I made good money in construction, but I consider them wasted years that I could have been advancing my career instead of coasting along because I had a few bucks in my pocket.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

re: Offshore design

I don't think design will be heading to far away lands anytime soon -- it's not cost-effective despite the currency exchange benefits.

Why?

Because clients like the "Look over the shoulder" factor. If a problem arises, they can meet you face to face and discuss any problems/issues that arise. It isn't going to happen if the design firm is in India.

Another reason -- language. I don't want to sound evil, but people prefer to speak someone who they can communicate to on a basic level. Case and point: Quark's tech support. They're based in India and I find it very hard to talk to someone over the phone when they're giving me instructions to troubleshoot a problem. Now, imaging trying to discuss publication, or design issues. How can someone in India know exactly what type of product, market, message, theme, ideas or style would attract a person in North America? Now, try the opposite -- how would you design something for someone in India. It's difficult. We hold different values, morals, and perspectives in our different societies -- what might be funny, whimsical, etc. here could insult someone overseas (and viceversa).

Also, larger firms prefer to have an internal design department to handle their needs -- it's cheaper and faster than outsourcing and provides them with the advantage of knowing themselves, their needs, and their market.


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

Agree with Manny P regarding the offshore bit.

We are not in the business, but are a major customer (we have just one design guy of our own) andwe like to be involved.

This starts with project initiation. We like deep discussions about a product, and the people we work with are great. they really get in to a topic.

The other thing is that to produce something for a segment I suspect it's of huge benefit to at least live in the society of which that segment is part. You have to have some "feel" for what is happening.


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## teeterboy3 (May 22, 2005)

simon said:


> Real life is tight deadlines, budgets, printing limitations and profit. Sure you can spend twice the time designing that fancy process colour with 3 spot colours and embossing brochure. Who's going to pay for that? The client (problem is they now expect it for the original budget)? Where are we going to print that? Will the company make any money?


Hallelujah!!!!
I have worked 12+ years in this industry, straight from high school working at the local newspaper as an ad designer. I went to university and took visual arts and communication studies. I have worked at newspapers of all sizes - it's where I cut my teeth in terms of deadlines and workflow. I am now in-house graphic designer on-site for a large company. I make good money doing that.

There are some things you just can't learn in school.

And it is absolutely true that people should drop the expectations of salary in the early parts of their careers until they earn the experience and understanding of the business the only way you can - by gaining it over time. Prove yourself not by what you think you know, but what you show you can do.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

bump for a great thread. thanx to all for their insight, experience and opinions! i've pretty much read everyone's posts and appreciate every last word that was said.


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

I've never understood the complaint of "this company has such ****ty equipment". Buy you're own god damn machine and quit complaining. Practically every other trade out there has to have their own tools...why would this be any different??

I use my own laptop at work. This way there is no complaining about anything. I'm the only one to blame for the quality of my work...not the machine. What's $3000 in the grand scheme of things? 

if you were REALLY ballsy you would bring in your own machine and then charge them to use it. A friend of mine does that and the company doesn't bat an eye.


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## strubee (May 17, 2005)

Any of you know of any good design companies hiring in the Toronto area? I'm a graduate of an Advertising and Graphic design program, and have been struggling to get work in the field. I'm tired of doing meaningless work, and not utilizing my skills. I may just start my own business but I hardly know where to start. My program had classes in Entrepreneurship and the business of Graphic Design, but unless you actually do it ,a lot of what they taught us doesn't make sense. I had an interview with Musclemag last year, but nothing came of it.


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## robert (Sep 26, 2002)

Strubee, what I would do in your shoes is send out/hand deliver a mailer with a few samples of your work to the firms that interest you/relate to your style. Follow this up with a phone call in a few days.
Or
just cold call around and ask if they are in need of help, part time or full. You can also ask for an information interview to help steer you in the right direction.
I found that by the time companies were readdy to hire, it was too late. The above method also keeps your work on file with them so they can review it if they need help.
Be sure to keep in touch/touch base every so often so they remember you.
Good luck.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Hit the charity and NGO circuit and work pro bono if you have to. It's a good way of networking and meeting people.

Quite frankly while you may be a frustrated world shaker, design firms will look for a work ethic that says ALL assiened work is important and needs to be done with skill and passion.

You're in the apprentice zone and you'll have to pay your dues in terms of grunt work.
You also can use the time to expand your skill sets. A high demand area is someone with both design and technical support ability as much today in the digital world involves technical issues.

There is a thread elsewhere ( Che maybe combine them??? ) about "additional skills".

I have a client looking but I spoke to her and she wants some maturity. She's been "burned" a couple of times by "just out of school" who think they know a lot..........and don't and get too easily bored.

She'll not be alone in that so do the grunt work with good cheer, network the pro bono circuit - even if you freelance you'll need real world references and projects to show off.

Good luck.


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## robert (Sep 26, 2002)

Thanks Macdoc. Forgot about adding the pro bono work. A real fast way to build a real life work portfolio.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

Pamela said:


> I've never understood the complaint of "this company has such ****ty equipment". Buy you're own god damn machine and quit complaining. Practically every other trade out there has to have their own tools...why would this be any different??
> 
> I use my own laptop at work. This way there is no complaining about anything. I'm the only one to blame for the quality of my work...not the machine. What's $3000 in the grand scheme of things?
> 
> if you were REALLY ballsy you would bring in your own machine and then charge them to use it. A friend of mine does that and the company doesn't bat an eye.


Sorry Pamela I do not agree with you one bit. You work for a company so they can make money, if the money they make isn't used to re-invest in their hardware to facilitate better/quicker more accomplished work....then sorry, in my opinion that is an awful company.

Granted, if you are freelance or contract based, then yes, by all means you should be using your own equipment and your fee should reflect the expense you went to to obtain it.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

Pamela said:


> I've never understood the complaint of "this company has such ****ty equipment". Buy you're own god damn machine and quit complaining. Practically every other trade out there has to have their own tools...why would this be any different??
> 
> I use my own laptop at work. This way there is no complaining about anything. I'm the only one to blame for the quality of my work...not the machine. What's $3000 in the grand scheme of things?
> 
> if you were REALLY ballsy you would bring in your own machine and then charge them to use it. A friend of mine does that and the company doesn't bat an eye.


no way would i bring my own equipment in to work for use without being properly compensated for. maybe a mouse, keyboard, or some speakers to make me feel more comfortable (which i have done), but not any large ticket items, and especially not a $3000 notebook.

maybe you can justify it for yourself with the salary you make. but by the sounds of the stories gathered here, being under paid AND bringing in your own equipment to use, i don't think so. i'd rather suffer with a slow machine and take longer to finish a project, as well as being paid for the extra time it takes me.

also, look at it this way, who pays for your notebook if it gets damaged at work? say a co-worker by accident spills something on it or knocks it off the table? if the company is too cheap to pay you more, too cheap to give you proper equipment, and too cheap to compensate you for the use of your equipment, they sure the heck aren't gonna pay to repair/replace your equipment if it gets damaged being used on their behalf!


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## vectra (Jan 23, 2003)

I've been hiring artists for 15 years and seen hundreds of portfolios, some amazing others well....The first criteria is talent. You can spot it immediately when reviewing the samples. Professionalism...how the samples are presented. For the kids fresh out of college, it's how clean their book is, how the material is mounted, what is presented etc. and for the pro, he or she would show their published material...this speaks for itself...meaning someone has invested time and money already with the artist and bought into the concept. 
Next is honesty. "Is this piece yours?" and "What did you actually do on this piece". I've been snowed by an artist who had an absolutely gorgeous portfolio presented to me once. I hired her immediately for a job we had available-yet she couldn't do it. She had no clue, so I pulled the job from her and gave it to another artist. About a year later, I saw the exact same portfolio-from the creative director she worked for in Hong Kong. Art is a team effort. Some artists will do everything, but sometimes it's an aspect of the process- the thinking,or the mechanical or the illustration. Be honest and say what your responsibilities were on the piece.
Understand the industry you are selling to. Art isn't art. There is advertising, corporate, retail, sales promotion,packaging to name a few subsets and each area has its unique attributes If you are a artist that has great corporate samples, they will be appreciated by someone in retail but you won't get the job. It costs to much money to train and there never is enough time. Catch 22. 
Once you've got the job and have the talent and understanding and deliver the job,,it's personality. If you can't get along with the buyer or the buyers boss forget about it. You can have the greatest work but if you don't understand the "climate" in the company, it won't work.
However at the end of day if you can put it all together, I think an artist can make a very good living and get paid a reasonable profesional salary.I know several that are doing very well. As a freelancer-if you have that special talent-name your price.
A smart studio has solid equipment. Not necessarily the latest and greatest, but equipment that would make the studio productive and make money for the company. Companies that don't invest in productivity will just pay the price one way or another. It's all about money in the end.


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## district (Sep 14, 2003)

simon said:


> I enjoyed the interview, I had been real rusty in that department and I enjoyed the experience but old equipment at an hourly rate less than what I started at when I began my career - like holy sh*t - 20 years ago when I first stared out I was making $14 per hour at a "junior" position and that was barely enough for my bills and family support.
> 
> Is this typical of the wages being paid out there? I've hired the occasional, on-site, temporary designer (usually students) to help when I get really overloaded and I have always paid $14-18 per hour ... am I paying too much?


Welcome to the capitalist system. The number of designers severly outweighs the number of design jobs, so employers can get away with paying crap wages because someone is bound to work for that little. 

About a year ago, I was doing layouts for a small circulation newspaper. They had me working on a Colour Classic at $7.25 an hour. I worked them up from $7.00


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## rneale (Jan 24, 2005)

*A company in Ottawa*



« MannyP Design » said:


> Simon: Yup... this is an alarming trend in the design industry. There's a company in Ottawa, who will be remain unnamed for their sake, who have an entire army of "junior" designers that work for $10/hour. They arrive at work around 9:00 a.m. and leave at 8:00/9:00 p.m. -- every day!
> 
> C'mon Manny, give us clue. A subtle hint would titillate me, initials? location? I've worked in Ottawa for ten years and heard about some bad places, c'mon, give us a clue.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> C'mon Manny, give us clue. A subtle hint would titillate me, initials? location? I've worked in Ottawa for ten years and heard about some bad places, c'mon, give us a clue.


i know of a guy that worked 15 hours a day at an 'agency' that does nothing but pump out sh*tty logos and gang up business cards and stationary. the entire 'staff' was high school students on co-op terms that were unpaid, except for a core staff of 2-3 'designers', none of whom had any post secondary education. 

here's the really funny part. the core 'designers' were paid piece work for logos, but they weren't paid in cash. they operated on a barter system. ie., do a logo for a flower shop, get a coupon off flowers, do a logo for a strip club, get a free lap dance etc.

actually these guys don't deserve to remain anonymous. here's the website: -------- it's good for a laugh.

edit: i had second thoughts about posting the website. i don't want to get sued for slander (even though what i wrote was true).


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> I have a client looking but I spoke to her and she wants some maturity. She's been "burned" a couple of times by "just out of school" who think they know a lot..........and don't and get too easily bored.


If this is the same client you refered me to last year, then I would keep from refering anyone to her. Not that I didn't appreciated the opportunity but let me tell you she is crazy. Completely bi-polar, one minute she would be laughing on the phone, and the next she would be yelling at her brother like a bloody psycho. The best part of working there was hearing the stories of the turn over, no one could stand her, so they left! 

There is a reason she will keep getting "burned" cause she is cheap! From underpaying staff, to hiring family members for camera shoots, to getting her own retired parents to do manual labour to complete jobs for her. I even thought she would be too cheap to fire me and give me severence, but I guess she proved me wronge there. Glad to hear the their "restucturing" is still a work in progress. Funny thing was it took all of a week to find a new job for a hell of a lot more!

I have to say to those looking to be well paid in this industry, my best experiences have been working as an in-house designer for large companies. Sure it doesn't offer the variety that a design house can offer, but they are not affraid to pay people what they are worth. You get your cheque on time, you leave at the same time as the others without getting stink-eye from the boss, and get this, they pay overtime, go figure!


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

rneale said:


> « MannyP Design » said:
> 
> 
> > C'mon Manny, give us clue. A subtle hint would titillate me, initials? location? I've worked in Ottawa for ten years and heard about some bad places, c'mon, give us a clue.
> ...


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## rneale (Jan 24, 2005)

I hear you guys, don't want anybody to get into trouble. It's just interesting hearing about graphic design in Ottawa. Being a government town means I get a lot of work from the Feds--with a lot of frustration, bewilderment and discouragement along for the ride.

Endless changes, translations, shifts in direction, reviews by committee etc., etc. And all the time the deadline is looming. Luckily, I've worked with some kick-ass production artists who can perform miracles. We call them the "make-it-happen queens".


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## kent (Oct 18, 2003)

I have to agree with Pamela to some degree about using your own equipment at work. Using new software and hardware boosts productivity substantially. Last year, I came into an architectural office to work an 8 month contract and they said here you go, and I looked down to see a beige G3 tower running OS9 [having been a new switcher at the time OS9 was Greek to me]. I used it for a day and said to myself no-freakin'-way ... I'm on salary here and waiting 30 seconds to have a CAD screen re-draw was unacceptable. So, I started using my own brand new G4 PowerBook. The firm always buys me a license for all the new Adobe software, CAD software etc - software that's worth waaaaaaay more than my PowerBook and they paid for my Applecare. I use my own equipment at work and it's worked out well for me, I still have some issues with it though. As one member brought up, what happens if you or someone else trashes your machine [i.e. pours coffee into the keyboard] or it gets totaled when someone gives you the "doorprize" when you're riding your bike to work...! Or, who pays for repairs when your machine finally bonks b/c you use it 300 times more than you normally would. The other issue is ergonomics - laptops suck for ergonomics [assuming that laptops would be the first choice for most people] ... for most design related jobs, a freaking big screen is a requirement [at least for me it is] - should we have to foot the bill for that too? 

I personally believe that good hardware and software is essential for efficiency and happiness. The cost of a decent computer and current software is waaaaaay less than the cost of wasted employee time. Employers will find that the output is better and possibly higher quality. Employees should not have to rely on their own machines - total BS unless you were in a situation like I was, especially if their isn't any reimbursement. If you do use your own equipment, they should be renting your machine from you monthly or something. Any of you design types using G3 PowerMacs or G3 iMacs and/or Photoshop 5 should give your employer an ultimatum: option1 - how about we get with the new millenium; option 2 - I just bought a new PowerBook and 20" display, here's what I want you to pay monthly; option 3 - see ya - go find a company that actually makes some cash ... I don't know about you, but watching a spinning beachball makes me very very angry. I don't know how you design types work on G3s etc ... I find my 1.25 GHz G4 PowerBook to be too slow sometimes.

If you have no other job alternatives and the G3 with 8 MB of VRAM or Commodore 64 [sp?] is getting you down, then swallow your pride, bring in your own Mac and start looking for a new job - maybe Bruce Mau is hiring!


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## iMatvei (Apr 4, 2000)

THis has been a really interesting thread to read. thanks all.


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