# Shame on the Liberal Government!!



## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

This is going around! I suggest we all seriosuly think about the release of the now famous audit!

 "Forwarded Email"
By now you all have heard the Auditor Generals report on the largest government spending scandal in Canadian history !!

 

It is very unusual for me , an ordinary hard working Canadian , to write something like this about the government of Canada. Throughout the years I , like many of you , have sat back , shrugged my soldiers , shook my head and silently cursed in disgust whenever the latest revelation of a government miscue became public.

 

Well it comes as no surprise that the Auditor General has caught them once again . The scandalous theft of $250 million dollars of our hard earned tax money is a national disgrace. It is bad enough that the taxpayers money was used to pay their liberal buddies for a 100% ineffective advertising scheme in Quebec . But to pay it through a money laundering scheme using phony invoices and involving the RCMP ,Canada Post , and Via Rail is a total abuse of the public trust.

 

The Human Resources Development boondoggle , the million dollar gun registry fiasco , new Bombardier executive class jets , etc,etc,etc . When is this total mismanagement of the taxpayers money going to end ?  Canadians are also fed up with the weekly deduction from our pay to fund an EI program that is already over funded . Of course the excess cash revenue is transferred into general revenues so that your government can waste it . What's up with that ? No wonder there is no money for health care and education .

 

But this time the government has hit a new all time low . Mismanagement because of incompetence is one thing - theft of our public funds is quite a different story . Criminal charges should be laid , and the guilty punished , but that is quite impossible since the RCMP is investigating itself.

 

I , along with Canadians from coast to coast , am very disappointed in their performance . Although they are hoping that an inquiry will buy them some time to get re-elected , it is up to us to ensure that this scandal does not get swept under the carpet . Shame on Paul Martin for saying that he was unaware of what was going on. As Finance Minister he was in control of the public purse.  

 

The current government has become complacent and corrupt , and needs to be held accountable . And you can do your part .

 

I have painstakingly compiled a list of every email address for every Liberal MP , including the Prime Minister of Canada ,and I have already sent them a group email to let them know how I disgusted I am about the situation .

 

In fact I have received a response from an MP who has let me know that he too is ashamed of our government . That is what we need to hear !!!

 

I am making the list available to anyone and everyone that wants to let them know how disgusted they are. You will find it at the end of this email .

 

If you really want to let them know that they have gone too far this time you will need to do two things:

 


Send your own email to the all of the email addresses below and tell them how you feel.

Pass this list of email addresses on to someone you know and encourage them to do the same.

You all know that I am not a political activist , but enough is enough . We need to hold those in power accountable for this one.

 
 

----- Original Message ----

To: [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected]


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

A loaded question, but what else is new?

Every government has it to some degree (though the gun registry has to take the cake for overspending). I don't support the Liberals, as they do need some sweeping change in leadership and actions. Paul Martin, in my opinion won't be able to do this unless he is willing to lose the next election.

That pointed out, there just aren't any ready to go throwing punches alternatives right now. Although it is a massive generality, the right wing parties are still getting themselves back onto their own two feet and aren't ready for the stage yet. The Reform Party was seen as a "West" party, and had problems connecting with people in the east. The change to Canadian Alliance didn't solve that problem very well if you can say at all.

The only thing we can do for now is really complain and then use our voice at election time. And try and not be like the Americans who have already forgotten about the capture of Saddam Hussein, mistakes by Bush's government, mistakes by the Democrats (racial slurs), and are currently being inundated with the news about the Democratic primaries.

I believe that the Liberal government can change, and that the other parties will be available to provide viable alternatives, by the next election.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm with you on this, chealion. I hated Chretien and was always ranting about the corruption (often to deaf ears, it seems) but there doesn't seem to be a clear alternative to Paul Martin right now.

But we can send a clear message to future scam artists by prosecuting and charging the worst of the bunch with serious crimes and breach of trust.

They are certainly guilty of this. No doubt about it. And it's on a scale that is wayyy beyond the usual financial skimming that so many governments seem to engage in.

Let's see Jean Chretien and his worst cronies go on public trial for their crimes. Let's see bank accounts and property seized and forfeit to pay back the stolen money and let's see the worst of them actually do jail time.

Do you think that any future governments might just think twice before stealing us blind, after witnessing that particularly embarassing spectacle?

Too bad we don't have a sober second elected body like the Seanate to drive this inquiry along. As it currently stands, our Senate is a retirement home for old politicians and all of it's members are appointed by...the Liberals!

We need a real democracy and a real (and EQUAL) second half to our government. One that WE elect. Just as we were promised at the beginning of Confederation.

Instead we have a near dictatorship and corruption on a scale that would make third world despots drool in envy.


Some "legacy". Thanks Jean.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

I think Jean Chretien's role in providing us with this particular aspect of his _legacy_ was his ever-growing indifference, nothing beyond that.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

This pathetic and sorry series of events highlights not only the cynicism of the Chretien government but also the ineptn ess in the official opposition. Let's face it, the Chretien government basically got away with their shennanigans because there was no one to hold their feet to the fire. This is true of the US congress as well. Government fails to work when opposition is weak.

The Conservatives have yet to demonstrate they can fly more than three feet at a time (and the three candidates are all seriously flawed). Jack Layton is hitting some nerves but I can't see the NDP building any more than 20 seats again and the PQ is walking dead. The only person making noise is nutty Sheila and that's for personal hatred of Paul Martin. If Martin has half a brain, he will conduct a widescale sweep of the Liberal Party, ejecting any members who do not publically recognize the fundamental flaws of the previous government. He should also appoint an opposition MP to chair each of the oversight committees.

Maybe the depth of this scandal will force him to actually institute real change. If not, the pigs will be back at the trough by next year.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

That's quite something, Although not unexpected.

I imagine the government wakes up each day wondering where
else they can waste money.

It's like the old saying...
"Why doesn't a civil servant look out the window in the morning?'
"They'd have nothing to do in the afternoon if they did"

It's not just the federal government either, The sickness seems
to spread to all levels of government regardless of the parties
they represent or are budding to represent (Municpal).

Look at the workfare system...

If a person is injured on the job that is under the workfare
system and can't work then the government will cut off their
benefits if they haven't quit their job and aren't working
because of an injury.

There is no workers compensation for the disabled,
I suppose it's an oxymoron in the eyes of the government.

How can a person that is on a disability be on workers
compensation because of an injury caused by a job that
supplements a disability benefit.

This isn't just the average person on welfare, This is the people
that want to work on disability benefits.

The same people that are being starved to death if they don't
supplement their incomes with the workfare system.

The scary thing is is if they make over a certain amount, Then
the government claws back money, Leaving the disabled
person with no incentive to work full time.

The disabled in Ontario haven't had a raise in their income by
way of a government increase in over 10 years.
(Not even a cost of living increase)

That is the real scandal. (Canada's dirty little secret)

D.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I am starting to fill out my income tax form and I am getting more and more angry as I realize how much of my tax dollars has been wasted just this past year.      I am all for funding of programs that are directed at health, education, welfare and the environment, but wasted dollars that we shall never see again that merely "lined the pockets" of a few people, infuriates me!!!!


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

"the pigs will be back at the trough by next year."

The trough operates 24/7 .... there remain troughs for every industrial sector for the most part quite invisible to the public. You can't afford the lawers or the club dues.

Be aware though that the "pigs" who unlike the rest of us hedge their bets, are the ones that finance the parties and the candidates.

And they will and do collect their R.O.I. one way or another no matter who's in power.

Democracy Votes/Capital Rules.


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## NetMinder (Dec 15, 2003)

I for one notice that the corruption typically happens in one part of Canada and typically the major corruption is perpetrated by those from that area and though our new Prime Minister has his riding in that fair province, I don't believe that he accepts this type of garbage and I am impressed that he has called a full public inquiry with all the attendant risk that he is taking for the Liberal party.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Paul Martin is the problem!!!
He is a crook.
Of course he is calling for a inquiry. Did you know its been reported he held a secret late night meeting last night with those who will conduct the inquiry?

Also, the day the report came out he had no clue,,,

Yesterday,, he knew everything and knew who was involved. I think the scary thing is Paul Martin is guilty of something and our Government has been hijaked.

Listen, hes the MAIN POINT, if this guy who is our PM missed a few hundred Million Dollars when he was the FINANCE Minster, then he is incomptent and should not be our Prime Minister.

Any man of any stature whatsoever would be fired for any job if you just "happened" to miss a few hundred million dollars. This is the worst excuse I have ever heard.

People lose jobs every day for making simple account errors of a few hundred dollars. This is the world we live in. He lost millions? Or lost track of it? That only means one thing. He should not be in charge of our company. This is a serious error.

Those who are guily should face jail time.

Paul Martin called today for those responsible to resign immediatley, I think he should do the same. This is a total scam.


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

Lots of justified outrage here and more than a little cynicism.

I feel we need to keep foremost in our minds that we are suffering outrage from our elected leaders. These are the people who create our laws! We have an entrenched system of profit from public service in this country. If current actions by our government members find popular disfavour, I would expect changes in our laws that will protect the system. We may not - probably won't - be aware of them. The tax laws are a convenient place to start.

In BC, we have a criminal as Premier of the province. (Yes - drunken driving is a crime.) Through some convoluted process that I do not care to try to emulate, the Government of BC now proposes moderation of the penalties for wielding a deadly machine while incapacitated. In other words, they want to lighten the consequences for criminal negligence. This should spare them some embarrassment the next time the Premier is caught in the act.

Don't like the outcry? Decriminalize the act. Bah!


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Well,
I hold the same view for both drunk driving and stealing.

If you drink and drive and kill someone, you should be thrown in jail for life. Drinking and Driving without killing someone should have stiff penalties..

Then we wouldnt need organizations like MADD, people just wouldnt do it. If the law said, you drink and drive, you get thrown in jail for 10 years, no questions asked. I imagine, we would not have as much of a drinking and driving problem.


Off topic rant..

But this is a serious crime.
Those responsible should go to Jail. Our PM lied to us.; He told us he had no idea. Then he said he new in 2000 about something.
That is it. He should be out. We as the people need to take the stand. If this is a Democracy (so we like to claim) we need to take a stand.
Although, we clearly live under the hegemonic imperalist United States.

I am just so fed up living amongst a mass of stupid people who do nothing..

I am ashamed to have voted Liberal.
I think somebody needs to go to Jail for this and if the PM is found to have any knowledge of and Illegal activity he should be forced to step down.
Of course, he will not be found, because he has already had secret late night meetings with the inquiry team.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Where do I _START??_ 

Okay, here goes...

JWoodget...It's not very fair to blame the opposition for not making a giant stink about this...because they HAVE BEEN! Harper has spent countless hours in Question Period demanding answers from Chretien for this very same boondoggle. And plenty of others.

But he is doing this while being loudly heckled and shouted down by the actual crooks who stuffed their pockets with our hard earned tax dollars! It's been all over several National newspapers in great detail. We, in the west can recite this stuff by chapter and verse...and it was we who correctly predicted that the failed and ineffective gun registry would run into the billions of dollars (to yet more shouting and heckling from the Liberal backbenchers). 

But most of the rest of Canada doesn't seem to take any notice. Too bad.

Why do you suppose I have been calling him Jean Corruptien since I first signed on here?  

Dr. G...glad you are finally getting mad about this. If a good-natured fellow like yourself is truly PO'ed about this...then there is hope that we can finally get something DONE about it. Focus your anger and use it as a weapon. There is tremendous power there, and we need it right now.

Netminder....

There is no question that the part of Canada that we dare not speak the name of is the center of vast corruption in this land. It has always been that way (more's the pity). One needs only look back at the Olympic Stadium fiasco to get a glimpse of this wide-ranging web of deciet and thievery. The evidence is all around us...but we choose not to see. Or prefer not to mention it.

It's no wonder that a political party and a bunch of politicians who come from this world of corruption should carry this activity out to the rest of the country when elected to Federal office. Pretty much a given, really.

And almost EVERY SINGLE ONE of our Prime Ministers, for the last three decades, have come from this one area of the country. Odd coincidence, eh?

Lindmar...

I think that you are probably correct. Paul Martin must have been a part of this, as are pretty much ALL of the top Liberals. If our current PM...who was the Finance Minister under King Jean...didn't know about this huge scam, then he is incompetent and should be tossed out.

If he DID know about it, then he was a part of it and should be in jail along with the rest of them.

We should note here that Paul Martin underestimated how much business his steamship company did with the Canadian Government by...wait for it... ten THOUSAND per cent! Perhaps he IS incompetent, after all?!?

Plus...he registers many of his ships using "Flags of convenience" in order to dodge major regulations and he keeps large sums in offshore Carribbean banks in order to dodge Canadian tax laws. Perhaps he IS a crook!?!

Too bad we don't have any bright shining lights ready to ride in from the opposition and take over from him after the next election. (I just keep hoping). This is what happens when you have a semi-democratic system that is...essentially...a one-party state. Too sad.  

This country desperately needs a change in Government and some serious political reforms to make sure that this sort of criminal activity is never allowed to happen again.

We need TWO seperately elected and totally independant bodies governing us. NOT a near dictatorship like we have right now.

Hopefully the hard core of Liberal supporters...who mostly reside in central Canada...and who are the most responsible for putting these crooked cretins into a position of total power over all of us...will stop and think, very hard, before they cast their next vote in the upcoming Federal elections.

We're ALL counting on you guys in Ontario and Quebec to do the right thing for everyone in this country.

We sure don't need any more of THIS!


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## Urban_Legend (May 29, 2003)

Hmmm some of you make some good points.

Although I have to wonder who the hell do you TRUST in this country to run it if we got rid of Paul Martin? EVERY SINGLE person we elect screws up in some way or another. High spending of our tax dollars is not new, and I wouldn't be surprised if this has happened more then once in the past with other PM's in power. Imagine, even the RCMP is guilty of being involved and they can't be looked at anymore with the respect they once had from Canadians and the world.

I don't just want to see people fired as that won't get the money back. However here is what I would like to see happen to those found guilty:

1. Fired 
2. Sentenced to jail without parol for 25 years+
3. Paul Martin pays back the $250,000,000 to Canadians in some form of a tax break

I don't care who they are, we as Canadians should have the final vote on how this outcome should prevail if found guilty of being involved.

Let me tell you, if I stole any amount of money from anyone I would be facing jail time, no questions asked. Why shouldn't these people?


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

Macnutt - sounds reasonable.

Where would the people to run for the Senate come from? What kind of overt party loyalties would they claim? How could they be counted on to provide any sort of balance in our new system of government? What would an effective Senate's actual scope of powers be in the day-to-day functioning of government? If we reform the Senate without drastically altering it from a club of political adherents - and that goes beyond merely electing them - I wonder how it can have the effect we desire.

In other words - double the trouble. I appreciate what you are proposing but I must return to the point I made earlier about the reformation of human nature. I have seen too many people taken advantage of too many times to place my confidence in a hierarchical system of government where we must place people WE DON"T EVEN KNOW into positions where they call the signals in our lives. It's just the anarchist in me, I suppose.

In my workplace, I struggle to suppress what my employer refers to as insubordinate behaviour. I have been "punished" for my views to the total of more than $2000. This is the level of enlightenment that has been achieved in a Crown Corporation - a microcosm of the method of government we impose on ourselves. When we have discarded the notion of subordination we will have gained a small step in our ability free ourselves from the current mess.

I really wish I could share your optimism.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

the senate, elected or otherwise, should just be abolished

[ February 13, 2004, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: MACSPECTRUM ]


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Hey,, there is nothing wrong with being anarchists or an activist is a more proper word I suppose... Political Activists are the ones who hold on to any word we have other then what is shoved down our throats...

Spread the word, spread the petition...
http://www.petitiononline.com/MRDCP/petition.html
Forward it to the list of emails... Post #1..
Forward it to your inbox..

Online Petitions are actually proven usefull.
Just think how all those iBook users eventually got new logic boards!

Send your own letter..


They need to be reinforced.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

The reforms that have been proposed...for more than a decade now... are as such:

An equal number of senators from each Province. Elected ONLY by the people from that Province. 

From whatever political Party they feel like voting for. No loyalties to the so-called "Governing Party" and not required to answer to ANYONE other than the people who actually elected them.

But with equal power to the so-called Governing Party.

Any commands from the Governing Party would have to run the gauntlet of the freely elected Senate before being turned into Government policy. No exceptions.

Any commands from the Senate would have to be vetted by the Governing Party before they could be turned into laws of the land. No exceptions.

Both halves of our Government would have to learn to work together in order to get anything done. Both would be tempered by the thoughts and desires of the other.

And there would be major elections every two years. Every two years we would be deciding who we wanted to represent us, either in the Senate or in the Governing Party.

Just to keep the bastards _HONEST_ and to keep them following OUR lead.

If not...then we TURF em! BOTH of them! Two years apart!

And hire somebody ELSE to do the job.

Because WE are the real power here. Not some corrupt group who only have to check back with us for two days out of every decade. And who don't have to answer to ANYONE in the between times.

WE have the muscle here. It's high time we started flexing that muscle.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

more gov't is NOT the answer
look at the U.S.
it takes forever to get anything done and the "representatives" are nothing but vacum cleaners for the money that special interest groups throw their way

our parliamentary system (sans senate) with more "free votes" will be a much more efficient system

the senate has no place in the Canada of today nor the future

less $$$ on politicians and their infrastructure and more money for social programs


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

Lindmar - I use the concept of anarchy to mean the total abscence of political authority. Activism, to me, means working towards a beneficial political authority - a relative situation. The two are therefore almost mutually exclusive. They are both valuable.

Macnutt - thanks for those items of information. I was aware of some fairly well-organized approaches to establishing a functional Senate. I have been forced to re-assess my estimate of the difficulty involved. With all due respect, the project now appears to me as triple the trouble.

I wish I could remain part of this discussion but I must excuse myself now - until Sunday evening. Mountains - here I come!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Macspectrum...whom I respect, and consider to be a friend...says we just need a bit more of the same old same old... and then all will be well here in Canada.   

LG Baker thinks that this sober second body...that is elected by the people to watch over the Governing Party....will be much too much extra complication...and will cause too many extra problems.(??!!??)

Besides...he's heading for the _MOUNTAINS_ for a much-needed vacation. 









THIS sort of apathy and inattention is PRECISELY what has landed all of us in this giant smoking crater full of trouble in the first place!  









We will NEVER attain full Nationwide democracy...or be able to stop the sort of corruption that we see from the Liberals... as long as these sort of attitudes prevail amongst ordinary Canadians. 

Too bad.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

I agree with MacSpectrum:


> less $$$ on politicians and their infrastructure and more money for social programs


An elected Senate has been a proposal from the Reform/Alliance/Regressive Conservatives since before Presto got his hair styled and I've never understood it. Why do we want to spend even more money on politicians, we're paying for 301 of them in Ottawa now?

Just abolish the Senate and implement proportional representation. It would accomplish many of the same things, as the triple-E Senate, mainly the government and opposition would have to co-operate and compromise more because they couldn't rely on becoming virtual dictators until the next election. To pass legislation, the party in power would have to actually consider the views of opposing parties or coalition partners. The days of all power emanating from the PMO would be gone. And Canadians would feel free to vote for the politicians they believed in rather than strategically, because they would know that their view would get some representation. I could go on and on about this but I would suggest that anyone interested in this, check out http://www.fairvotecanada.org/

There are supporters of proportional rep from every party in Canada, except the BQ and of course, the Libs, who has benefitted massively from our current unfair system.


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

I am quite willing to bear my share of the responsibility for our present predicament. I have upheld my end of the agreement between the citizens of this country and the institution of government to the best of my ability. I don't feel this is apathy or neglect.

It's true that I have no proposal that is guaranteed to eliminate the types of corruption and selfish activity that characterize many of the men and women who hold positions of advantage in our system. I thought that was the very thing we were working on in this discussion.

I feel that the establishment of a "second body" to govern the first is much too complicated and expensive. Will we then require another to watch over the Senate, then another to watch over the third, and so on....? The idea I am trying to introduce is this - there is a need to examine what it is, in our very core, that requires the type of authority we recognize as government and take measures to prevent the leakage of our resources into the vats of a few corrupt individuals. This may not be a clear approach in some people's view, but it draws nearer to true democracy than any type of political system that elevates a party of individuals to positions where they can dictate the terms of existence to all and sundry. This is the "subordinate" view and I see no further point in it. I feel it is better to discard it now - not entrench it with more levels of the same. Am I making any sense yet?

The Mountains - yes. Vacation - not exactly. It is where my wife lives and the weekends are the only time we have to be together. it is also where my second job is - have a standard of living to maintain, you know.


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

And there are no ordinary canadians. We are all extraordinary.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I think Martin is taking the correct steps and this gives him a perfect opportunity to wield a big broom and get rid of a number of hang overs from the Chretien era.










The PMOs office certainly seems on the war path and in Martin style doing something about it. Admittedly it took a couple of days to react and this has been brewing for several years.
Recalling the Ambassador to Denmark and

"Yesterday Martin said he had called the management of all five crown corporations and agencies to account.

He invited those who had a part in the sponsorship affair to resign from their positions before he came for them.

It is clear heads may roll long before a public inquiry gets down to work."

Lots more here 

A shake up like this is a good thing and long overdue.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Interesting direction on the posts here points to a the title of the topic as rather silly.

I have not yet seen a suggestion that we find out where the money went. 
It looks to me like a repeat of the puppets (politicians) hiding their puppeteers (backers).

Left behind are a few mac







suggesting a change to a different brand of corruption.

Lest we forget Here's an example of a conservative cabinet minister getting his balls licked by (Magna) business:

"_On May 12, 1986, Sinclair Stevens, minister of Regional Industrial Expansion in the federal Conservative cabinet, resigned in a flurry of allegations of conflict of interest. After trying unsuccessfully to stonewall the matter in Parliament, the Mulroney government agreed to mount a judicial inquiry. The result was the most expensive such inquiry in Canadian history-part morality tale, part soap opera, and part media circus. It went far beyond the facts of the Sinclair Stevens case to expose the seamless web that unites politics and business in Canada._"


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Great words!
Thanks!

I agree,
People need to stand up, get of their "asses" , stop watching American idol and do something about this. This is as close as it gets to a dictatorship. It is not a conspiracy. 

I have sent three letters already to the list above.
I have recieved two responses from Members, offering a apology and also sharing in my disgust.

I replied by telling them it is their DUTY as Canadians to fight this as far as it goes. Even if it means a smaller member of Government going after the Prime Minister... 

Once again, I will bring up Martha who I could care less for... BUT.. the media around the world are making a mockery of her. As FAR as I am concerned her crime does not even compare in size to a crime of this nature. 

I think I'm being quite repetative but this it what it takes.
I do take Notice that quite a few people around here are avoiding this debate. Specifically those, who have supported the Liberals here and in posting. I was a true Liberal supporter until three days ago. This has just taken me over the edge.


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## Urban_Legend (May 29, 2003)

Here is a thought,

Since the government pocketed $250,000,000 of our tax dollars, I say for those people WHO OWE in taxes from last year, don't send them a damn penny until this is resolved. We as Canadians should get together and fight for this trade off, pay back the $250,000,000 to Canadians by a certain date, and until the government does, we as Canadians won't pay you any taxes we owe you.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I agree with you completely, Urban Legend. As do vast numbers of other Canadians if the call-in radio and TV programs are any indication. There is a serious fury in the land right now...and it's focused on the ruling Liberal Party.

Rightfully so!  

But we have to stop and remember that we don't have a second independantly elected power group who have the will to actually investigate and pursue this criminal activity that the Liberals have been accused of..

Paul Martin is going to have his own Party investigate itself (?!). He may call in the RCMP (who get their paychecks and marching orders from the ruling Liberal Party) to help out in the investigation (??!!?).

He may even enlist the Senate to look into this massive scandal.

Trouble is..the Canadian Senators are all appointed by the Prime Minister and they get their considerable paychecks from him. Wonder where their loyalties actually lie....

The Ethics Comissioner is also someone who could investigate this major theft of taxpayer dollars by the Liberals.

Trouble is...the Ethics Commissioner reports directly to the Prime Ministers Office and he can be fired by the Prime Minister. Wonder where HIS loyalties actually lie...

Failing all of that, we can just wait until the next Federal Election and turf the bastards who stole our money OUT of PUBLIC OFFICE.

But we poor Canadians don't even KNOW when our next election might actually be held.

The sitting Prime Minister is in charge of THAT decision, as well. 









I think what we Canadians REALLY need is an actual, functioning _DEMOCRACY_ for a change!

We sure don't have one now.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Hey , I'm in NO TAXES...
Count me in.

The problem is, gaining the support.
When it comes down to it, people are going to pay their taxes. Alot of people talk the game but will not do it in the end.

Chomsky has a good story about that in a lecture thats documented in his book 'the indispensible Chomsky'

He spent many years simply not paying taxes as a means of protest. Of course, they came after him in the end and he had to pay up. But he thought is was a very useful means of protest against such things as a war your government is engaged in that you wish to have no part in or they are stealing from you..


This would be a useful tactict if enough Canadians were on board. I can assure you, this would be resolved alot quicker then if we all let it slowly slip into the back page.


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

Whoa, Lindmar! Over the edge may not be the best way to make the changes you feel are necessary.

Macnutt wrote:


> This country desperately needs a change in Government and some serious political reforms to make sure that this sort of criminal activity is never allowed to happen again.


I am not sure I can share your optimism, Macnutt. A change in government, with all other things unchanged, will merely divert our resources into the coffers of a different elite - or the same elite with a different face.

I also feel that political reform can only follow from a more fundamental reform in human nature - a much higher level of conscience and morality. Politics is merely the means we use to achieve what we feel is right. Someone earlier proposed a dose of anarchy as a remedy for the issue under discussion. I wish! Somewhere in the process of aging I realized the human race has a long way to go before anarchy is possible.

The reform of our second level of Federal authority - the Senate - would only double the trouble, without a hard critical look at how it should function. The Republican model of our Great Southern Ally leaves me cold. What would you suggest to make this work?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Good idea, Lindmar....

But most Canadians are way too sheep-like to actually go through with a non-payment of taxes protest.

We're just too darned law abiding, as a whole.

But we CAN all get together and register our collective protests with a vote at election time.

That would be the one SINGLE DAY out of each five year period when we Canadians actually have a true democracy in our country.  

When that day finally comes, think long and hard....and don't waste it.

Unless you want more of the same.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

LGB...

A second elected body that was truly independant of the elected PM and his Party would provide all sorts of checks and balances in the system.

Especially if that second body was elected in between the Federal elections. Which SHOULD be at set intervals.

That would mean that every two or three years we would have a very real say in electing HALF of the people who actually govern us on a daily basis. 

And each group could investigate the other if a major scandal like this one came to light. Each group would only answer to the voters for their power base and their paychecks. Failure would mean rejection from the voters on election day.

Right now, the whole sordid mess answers ONLY to the Prime Minister. He pays all of their paychecks, and HE decides when we get a chance to go to the polls.

THAT is NOT democracy.  

It's no wonder we are in the state we are in.

Pun intended.


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## Urban_Legend (May 29, 2003)

What needs to happen are rally's held in Ottawa and at all major government tax revenue agencies across the country. We need to show we mean buisness, even if it means storming parliment. It is time that we Canadians take things seriously and show our government leaders we mean business in return. I'm sure there are a ton of Canadians out there who would support this once something gets started. 

This BS has to stop and I think the time is now, putting Paul Martin in a place of discomfort at a time like this is the perfect opportunity for Canadians to take control back for their own needs. Come election time, we need to boot his ass and every other Liberal out of office for good. I don't want to see another person come out of QB or ON as a new PM. I would rather have joe schmoe from NFLD run this country then anyone out of QB or ON.  I guess I'm just sick and tired of the BS and wished that Canadians would take a stance instead of sitting on their asses all the time.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Here we go.
http://www.petitiononline.com/MRDCP/petition.html


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## Ingenu (Jun 4, 2003)

> There is no question that the part of Canada that we dare not speak the name of is the center of vast corruption in this land. It has always been that way (more's the pity). One needs only look back at the Olympic Stadium fiasco to get a glimpse of this wide-ranging web of deciet and thievery. The evidence is all around us...but we choose not to see. Or prefer not to mention it.
> 
> It's no wonder that a political party and a bunch of politicians who come from this world of corruption should carry this activity out to the rest of the country when elected to Federal office. Pretty much a given, really.
> 
> And almost EVERY SINGLE ONE of our Prime Ministers, for the last three decades, have come from this one area of the country. Odd coincidence, eh?


Peace Macnutt. To be honest, I had a hard time to stay calm when I read that.

It's pretty tendentious. And I just can't imagine I'm the only one to notice it. I can understand you folks being tired of Ontario and Quebec having too much importance in Canada, but... let's keep the debate free of that kind of insults.

It's not the first time you make that kind of comments on Québec. I don't like that.

"World of corruption"... I can't believe it...  

You don't have to look that far from your home to see it. Look in your own backyard.

I you wonder why every prime minister in the last decades came from Quebec, I'll give you a pretty straighforward answer : they're the only ones with enough charisma to please Québec's voters (which still counts for 20-25 % of Canada's), fluent both in english and french (Chretien being an exception  ) and knowing Canada from coast to coast.

That last waste of money is outrageous for another reason : it was done in an attempt to cram Québec's voter heads with Canadian identity after the referendum. Needless to say, that program was ineffective. Worst, that fiasco is fresh ammunition for PQ supporters.

Don't get me wrong. I find what happened outrageous too.

But please...

Talk about facts instead of putting french people on trial.  

No hard feelings.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Corruption does not find a more welcoming home in Quebec or central Canada any more than it does in Victoria, Yellowknife or Brandon. Corruption seeks out opportunity, period.

Singling out Quebec as if it's some kind of historical hotbed for government abuse and corruption is reckless, simplistic thinking - that, or merely more fodder for the conniving conspiracists among us. Either way, it does not foster any kind of meaningful dialogue.

_Sigh._ I sometimes wonder how it is that this country doesn't implode from the crushing weight of its own rampant, back-biting regionalism.


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## Ingenu (Jun 4, 2003)

> Sigh. I sometimes wonder how it is that this country doesn't implode from the crushing weight of its own rampant, back-biting regionalism


True enough. It's been going on since this country's foundation. As in USA.

But, to the south of the border, they have a common ideal. I can't think of anything similar here.

Well... maybe we are to passionate about each other...


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

*Q*: What's the difference between Paul Martin and Ali Baba?

*A*: Ali Baba knew who the forty thieves were.


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## blue sky (Oct 24, 2003)

> When it comes down to it, people are going to pay their taxes. Alot of people talk the game but will not do it in the end.


The problem with this is most taxpayers have their taxes deducted at source, prohibiting them from taking this route.



> I have not yet seen a suggestion that we find out where the money went.
> It looks to me like a repeat of the puppets (politicians) hiding their puppeteers (backers).


Good point. We should be concerned about where the money went and shutting down that pipeline. Trouble is, money, like water, will always find a different route to flow.

Most Canadians exhibit indifference partly due to the acceptance of the benign dictatorship we live in. What does not kill us....

Who among us can say truthfully that we would not succumb to the same corruption, should we be placed in power, no matter how strong our ideals ?  Should we find those individuals who can truly work for the benefit of the whole country (or province / territory / municipality) while maintaining true integrity, would they agree to accept that responsibility ? And, for how long could they hold out against the special interest groups, corporations, etc., without becoming corrupt from the power they hold ?

Perhaps we need to start over. Realize that we prefer a form of elected dictatorship. We could severely time limit it in duration, support it by a citizens assembly, randomly selected based on geographic area, propensity for integrity and dedication to its constituents, as well as being time limited in its duration. 

And be sure to watch "The Corporation" on TVO February 25, or catch it in the theatres or at least visit http://www.thecorporation.tv/ , as this is just as prevalent in Canada as it is in the US.


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## Ingenu (Jun 4, 2003)

> Q: What's the difference between Paul Martin and Ali Baba?
> 
> A: Ali Baba knew who the forty thieves were.


 

That joke makes my day.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

regarding "equal representation"
how do you accomplish that without ursurping the will of the majority of the population (i.e. Ontario and Quebec) and yet still maintain a democracy?

not being a specialist in this area, i would like to know what others think. the senate (in whatever form) isn't the answer

perahps a "1st ministers council", but weighted such that PEI doesn't equal Ontario in number of votes
a first ministers council would fulfill the need for some to have an elected body of sober second thought (although ralph klein and BC's premier may have issue with the "sober" part  )

also, this 1st ministers council would have the will of people behind them, since they were elected i.e.they would have a mandate

thirdly, it would work WITHOUT having to setup an entire set of infrastructure as would a senate
yes, there would be more minions eg. the premier would have a deupty premier helping him in inter provincial affairs.

all this WITHOUT extra elections

the ralph klein would be forced to come to the table and not just pass [out] without any reason
democracy means participation

i just don't see how the US senate model does any good for either the US (except produce presidential candidates) or Canada

let's say tha 1/4 of the premier's time would be devoted to inter provincial affairs and dealing with ottawa
more face to face meetings between premiers and the PM would go a long way to reducing the power of the PMO - something many here have clamoured for
might actually force the buggers to work together

i haven't figured out where the powers of this council begin and end, but it's only saturday morning

just brainstorming here


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw just the other day:

Please don't steal. The government hates the competition.

Cheers


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Just finished filling out my income tax form. I made more money than ever before because this year I held down two full time jobs and did not take any vacation time. However, I also paid more income tax than ever before.    I, for one, want to know where the money went, who it went to, and if it cannot be retrieved, then those who received this money should go to jail. Period. End of rant.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

> the ralph klein would be forced to come to the table and not just pass [out] without any reason
> democracy means participation


The Klein government did not come to the table on the Canada health council question when all other provinces were there.

I find it both ironic and embarrassing that Klein's agriculture minister is now chiding those provinces who have not come to the table to sign the new national mad cow disease policy.

Seems to me we are just now receiving what we dished out and have no reason to whine.

Cheers


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I find it both ironic and embarrassing that Klein's agriculture minister is now chiding those provinces who have not come to the table to sign the new national mad cow disease policy.


Good point Sinc.

politics, by its very nature, is about comprimise
Klein tried to "show up" the PM and other premiers by not attending the Frist Ministers Conference

Now Alberta's agriculture minister wants his provincial counterparts to sign his mad cow agreement

should anyone be surpirsed that the other provinces are not rushing to the table?

Klein needs to look a little bit past his own ego from time to time. Unfortunately Albertans, especially cattle ranchers, are paying the price for his indiscrection.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

And the Federal Liberal Party is currently dealing with the fallout from the "indiscretions" of a deeply corrupt previous leader.

Tonight's poll results show the libs to be at 39% and falling fast. Almost two thirds of Canadians surveyed in this same poll say they honestly believe that Paul Martin knew more about this theft of Canadian taxpayers dollars than he claims to know.

He was the Finance Minister during all of this, after all.

He was also the Finance Minister during the period when the Chretien Liberals "balanced" the budget by offloading most of the health care costs to the Provinces.

The polling company was interviewed on TV tonight and they predicted that, if an election was held today, the Federal Liberals would be lucky to end up with a minority Government.

We have only seen the very tip of this particularly ugly iceberg...and far more dirt is likely to surface in the coming months as Paul Martin desperately attempts to clean house. Heads will roll, and more corruption will surface as a result.

We aint seen NOTHIN yet!

Anyone care to guess at the reaction of the electorate once we are finally consulted on voting day?

And is anyone else here wishing we had an actual functioning democracy in Canada? So we could deal with this stuff by casting our votes at regular intervals?

Or do we all actually _PREFER_ an institutionalised dictatorship that steals us blind and won't let us vote them out until THEY decide it's the right time?

What a joke..


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macnutt, this shall be a classic example in future physics classess re the fall from grace of both Bush and Martin. Two falling bodies....who shall hit rock bottom first? We shall see. Meet you at the Leaning Tower in Pisa to test this experiment.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Interesting thought, Dr.G.  

The classic experiment says that both bodies will hit the ground at precisely the same time, irregardless of mass.

But one has to take into account several other factors. The most important of which is friction. (a feather doesn't fall as quickly as a bowling ball...because of environmental friction)

George W. has only seen a couple of polls where he was actually below the fifty per cent satisfaction level with the American public. Currently he is back above that 50% level.

There is a small amout of very loud friction in his electorate. For a short time, they managed to drown out the glide.

Paul Martin and the Federal Liberals have always had a substantial amount of friction with pretty much ALL of the Canadian electorate outside of central Canada.

We just barely put up with them, outside of Ontario and Quebec.

But they keep on getting elected because of the easy "glide" that they always had in central Canada.

This week, that friction went into serious overload...and the polls all show the Liberals to be dropping faster than a manhole cover through the upper atmosphere. 

And the central Canadian glide seems to have stalled somewhat. Even THEY are beginning to wake up and realise that they have been regularly electing criminals to higher office for the past decade.

Criminals who are committed to stealing their hard earned money. And who are equally committed to covering up these large scale thefts. 

Gee...go figure.

It's time for a change. We are NOT at all happy with what we have these days. More and more Canadians are waking up to that simple reality.

And...if there were some sort of charismatic leader available from the other side of the fence right now, then we would see a massive defeat of the ruling Federal Liberals in the next election.

Whenever that might occur.  

Even without a leader, the Conservatives are only about ten points behind the Liberals these days.

Watch what happens in the coming weeks. It'll shock you.

Especially if you're politically committed to the gang of theives who've been stealing from Canadian taxpayers for the past decade or so.

Gonna be a wild ride. Fasten your seatbelts.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Update to that earlier post:

The latest polls show the Liberals have lost 15 points in only two weeks and the Conservatives...who don't even have a leader...are only a dozen or so points behind them.

Many of the Liberal faithful are busy trying to minimise this horrendous fall from grace by pointing out that there are no really good alternatives available on election day.

There is some validity to that.

Trouble is...Canadians are famous for voting _AGAINST_ parties and not _FOR_ them during major elections.

The recent McGuinty win in Ontario was a good example of this. Nobody...me included...wanted to see another Eves government.

So Ontario ended up with a useless dishrag of a Premier.

When federal election day finally comes here in Canada, more people will be concerned with removing the corrupt Liberals from office than in electing a better group to replace them. The results will be devastating for Martin and Co.

Watch and see.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Canadians are even more famous for voting against something when it doesn't mean voting for something else.

The leaderless, policyless Conservatives are notparticularly objectionable. Put face to lead them and policies to the rhetoric and I suspect the Liberals would get a healthy bounce.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

"The recent McGuinty win in Ontario was a good example of this. Nobody...me included...wanted to see another Eves government.
So Ontario ended up with a useless dishrag of a Premier."

Wonderful.... so the outlook for this nation is to elect a useless dishrag in the form of Clement, Harper or Stronach?

I also find it hilarious that certain Liberals are contemplating or actually jumping ship to the Conservatives. Hmmm... these are the pro-Chretienites who were left out in the cold by Martin. They were therefore party to the sponsorship scam with the Liberals. Presumably the Tories are willing to selectively forgive and forget. Dumb move.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Pretty chaotic eh jwoodget ... ?

The bolting dolt John Bryden is a prime example of dish raggery.

I'm trying to reconcile John Bryden's affiliation with Chretien and his virulent anti equal rights stance vis-a-vis homosexuality.

We have not heard from the social basket case since his campaign to end gay rights with respect to legal recognition.

From his own local rag: September 25, 2002

_Liberal M.P. Promotes Discrimination
Against Same-Sex Parents
Alternative Moms in Peel Respond

Liberal party member of parliament John Bryden (Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot) calls the Ontario court decision in favour of equality of same-sex couples "scandalous" and "a slap in the face to Parliament".

"It suggests," writes Bryden, "the court thinks MPs are ignorant of human rights."

Or MPs are simply willing to ignore our human rights and Charter?

Bryden is worried that same-sex relationships in adoption and child custody situations will have an equal footing with opposite-sex relationships.

"I am not prepared to accept that it makes no difference to a child whether his parents are same-sex or opposite-sex," Bryden declares. "The judges have failed to consider the rights of the child." _
http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/advocacy/news2002.htm#bryden 

There is much rejoicing in Liberal circles at the long overdue exit of this sh**head.

Bye-the-bye, Tony wants to meet with Bryden .... the collective stench should shock & awe all and sundry .....


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I don't recall ever saying that Bryden was going to sit as a conservative. He is planning on leaving his party in sheer disgust, and sitting as an independant.

More will follow, as this scandal unfolds. Many Liberals will be working very hard to distance themselves from the "stench" (as macello so colourfully put it) of corruption that hangs over the Federal Liberal Party.

It should be rather interesting to see how the Canadian public reacts to each stage of the Inquiries that are now underway. Seeing Chretien and Martin battle it out to place the blame for this criminal activity should also provide hours of entertainment for everybody.
















This will occur during the runup to a Federal Election.

I'm looking forward to it.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

_It suggests," writes Bryden, "the court thinks MPs are ignorant of human rights."

Or MPs are simply willing to ignore our human rights and Charter?

Bryden is worried that same-sex relationships in adoption and child custody situations will have an equal footing with opposite-sex relationships.

"I am not prepared to accept that it makes no difference to a child whether his parents are same-sex or opposite-sex," Bryden declares. "The judges have failed to consider the rights of the child." 
_ 

Sounds Like a good Conservative er Alliance er Reform member to me Macello. He should fit in just fine with them. That is the best news the Liberals have had in a couple of weeks.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Firstly, Bryden is sitting as an independant.

Secondly...Canadians are going to be voting to toss out the creeps who've ripped them off, in very large numbers, during the next election.

THAT will be the biggest single motivator for the Canadian public. Not "government policies" on same sex marriages or on any other subject.

Besides...the Liberals always break all of their election promises anyway. This is well documented.

And this will also be a big part of the publicity campaign just before the next election.

Which will be happening to a backdrop of multiple public Inquiries about Liberal corruption.

Care to speculate about the outcome?


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

At the worst a Liberal minority government with the NDP holding the balance of power.

And if Layton sticks to his demand for a measure of proportional representation in Parliament for his party's support, I would say that's a positive outcome.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Firstly, Bryden is sitting as an independant.


only because after the conservatives were asked if Bryden was joining them, they were shocked, as they had not been consulted

Bryden in his press conferences said he will be speaking to the conservatives

the only reason bryden is sitting as an independant is that;
1. he is not hi profile enough for the conservatives to court
2. he was/is a big Chretien suppporter - not exactly what the conservatives had in mind


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

From Stephen Harper's own e-rag;
_ The media may be focusing of the Paul Martin scandal, but policy development must go on, in preparation for the next election! _

I watched Harper's speech at the Empire Club. He had his speech re-written at the last minute. The speech was supposed to unveil his envrionmental policy, but instead focused on the "scandal."

Hey, Stevie boy! Tell me again who is focusing on on what?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Brainstrained...

A "Liberal Minority" is a VERY optimistic view of the possible outcome of all of this. With Paul Martin gone, and many of the rest of them forced to defend their institutionalised theivery before a public Inquiry...and a WHOLE BUNCH of additional corruption charges fresh in the public mind during an election...

I can honestly see them being wiped out as a Party.

Plus, what in the world makes you think that the NDP could end up being the other half of a minority government?









They have only gained a single point in all of the polls since this scandal began to unfold. There is every indication that, at election time, they will actually LOSE some of the seats that they now hold.

These days, Svend Robinson is imensely unpopular in his riding out here in the west. It is very likely that he will be defeated in the next Federal election. There are several more examples of NDP seats that are likely to fall, as well. 

Canadians are severly pi**ed off. They're NOT stupid.

The NDP is a spent force in it's dying days, all across this country.

The Federal Liberals are the focus of intense anger by a voting public who can finally see how terribly corrupt they really are. This will only get much worse as more and more corruption is revealed to us all.

So where does that leave us?

Care to re-speculate on the end results of the next Federal election?


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

No. I don't see anything worst (better) than a minority government.

And you're right, the NDP might not hold the balance of power in a minority government. 

The BQ could too.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

We are on the cusp of a serious change in the political landscape here in Canada. Major upheaveals are a certainty, given the nationwide negative feelings of the electorate toward the so-called "natural Ruling Party".

It DEFINITELY won't be "business as usual, with a few changes". You can count on that!

Pretty much ANY Party could end up holding the reins of power after this next election.  

BQ, NDP, Conservative...or even the Rhino Party!

One thing is for sure....NONE of them will ever again think of the Canadian taxpayer as "fair game" or an "easy mark".

We've woken up. Finally.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I wish that were true macnutt, but, looking back over history in this country and many others, corruption, mis-use of public funds and abuse of power seem to be ever-present or just under the surface. No matter what the political colour. Same is true in the private sector. I just read of one of the executives of Ontario Hydro who earned $950,000 per year who also charged in-room movies to his company. It's that kind of arrogance and false sense of entitlement that indicates when a person has lost perspective. They think the world should be thankful for their breathing.

Perhaps this sorry episode will push the government to make significant changes in the independence of oversight. Sheila Fraser's office should be funded by any mis-appropriated funds they find. We need a Damacles sword over the heads of every elected official. We need the professional bureaucrats to realise that ethical pursuit of their job is more important than pleasing a Minister. We also need a free press to keep everyone legal.

[ February 22, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: used to be jwoodget ]


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Spring cleaning....

Regarding the apparent hypocrisy of claiming the Liberals were all tarred with the same brush, yet the Conservative Party taking in Liberal MPs....

Macnutt said here "I don't recall ever saying that Bryden was going to sit as a conservative. He is planning on leaving his party in sheer disgust, and sitting as an independant."

Macnutt reiterated here "Firstly, Bryden is sitting as an independant."

This week from Mr. Bryden's own frothy mouth: 
"In the long run to be effective in the House of Commons you really have to belong to one of the major political parties. I have far more sympathies for the Conservatives than I do for the New Democrats. I think this is where I belong for now." 

Former Liberal MP John Bryden officially joins the Conservative Party.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Here is a new development in the ongoing Liberal scandal....

It looks as though Paul Martin has ordered an examination of the BDC. The Business Development Bank of Canada has long been rumored to be a piggy bank and a patronage haven for the corrupt Chretien Liberals.

It's current President, Micheal Vennat, is involved in three seperate scandals at the moment.

The BDC...you might recall...is the Government owned bank that Jean Chretien sent a personal letter to, recommending approval of a lage bank loan on a property that was still partially owned by him.

When the loan was turned down, the BDC director who turned it down was fired and discredited. His pension was even terminated.

This is the famous "Shawinigate Scandal".

Now, it turns out that the BDC and it's Chretien apppointed President are also in the thick of the Sponsorship money laundering scam as well.

My goodness....these scandals are actually starting to _OVERLAP_ .
















The Liberals are going to be VERY hard-pressed to come up with a good "story" to explain all of it to the recently ripped-off...and severely pi**ed-off...taxpayers of Canada.

Of course, if they get re-elected...then they will have gotten a vote of approval from us all and it will be back to business as usual. They probably won't even bother to explain anything.

Think about that, when you cast your vote in the upcoming Federal Election.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Actually, until Michel Vennat was appointed to the board, the BDC was doing pretty well - it certainly wasn't a trough for Liberal interests. But then Vennat turned the screws on François Beaudoin to keep pressure off recalling the golf course loan that Chretien had lobbied for several years previously and then fired Beaudoin for refusing. A Quebec court cleared Beaudoin of any wrong doing and slammed Vennat for the unjustified firing. Why this pig was ever appointed is one thing, but it makes me wonder how many other crown corporation political appointees are as incompetent.

Paul Martin has stated he supports parliamentry vetting of such appointments (as occurs in the US). Not a moment too soon. Hopefully, those in place will also be reviewed.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

And hopefully Paul Martin...who has promised rather a LOT of things to rather a LOT of different groups...is not quite as quick to break those promises as his predecessor was, once the election was in the bag.  

Sounds like we are all being told by the Liberals " _yes, we've screwed you and lied to you and stolen millions from you....but we just need this one more chance (to do it again)"_ 

"Please TRUST us!"

Bleeecchhhhh.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

So do you really think that the Canadian electorate has any more trust of Harper or Layton? I thinketh not. There is general distrust of all elected officials.

The next election will see Martin given the benefit of the doubt. If the other party leaders have any wits about them, they'll spend the next period in opposition as an effective Opposition, build their credibility and demonstrate their electability. Otherwise, it will be same old, same old.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I've been having this same conversation with macspectrum via PM's.

The gist of it is that you may be right, Woodget.

I don't honestly think Layton has a ghost of a chance and it's unfortunate that Harper hasn't a great deal of charisma. Perhaps neither will win the next election.

But...as I have been pointing out to macspectrum...Canadians are almost as likely to collectively vote _AGAINST_ a political Party as they are to vote FOR one.

Witness the recent Ontario Provincial elections.

And, out here in BC, it was more of a massive vote _AGAINST_ the NDP than it was FOR the Liberals that gave them such a massive landslide victory three years ago.

Martin is well thought of (heck..even I like him!) but there is no way to say how badly this ongoing scandal has hurt the Federal Liberals until the day after the next election.

There is also no way to predict what will happen once the mutiple Inquries and investigations have run their course. Even if they manage to squeak through this and get themselves a new majority, I suspect that the Liberals are in for a very rough time once all the dirty facts are known.

And THAT particular dose of reality may just cut their new tenure rather short. Especially if Paul Martin has to resign because of that promise he made in the early days of this scandal.

Oh...and one more thought for you to chew on...

If it turns out the the Federal Liberals DO get a new majority...and if the voting patterns reveal that this was strictly an Ontario/Quebec phenomenon while the rest of the country voted _AGAINST_ them, en masse....

Then watch out!   

The words "fury in the land" will not even come CLOSE to describing what comes next.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

As I just noted on the "Shame on the Liberals" thread...

Jean Pelletier, former Cheif of Staff for Jean Chretien, and lately the head man at ViaRail has just been fired by Paul Martin.  

About time, too.

Okay...let's look at the scorecard so far:

-George Radawanski...former speechwriter for Jean Chretien, and one of his personal friends, fired from his post and under investigation. His extravigant lifestyle and tyrannical ways are becoming a legend around Ottawa. The RCMP is also looking into why, exactly, his debt to Revenue Canada of half a million dollars was pretty much written off the day before Jean Chretien appointed him.

-Alponse Gagliano...former head of Public Works and one of the guys who started the Sponsorship Program. Also a close friend of Jean Chretien. King Jean put him in charge of the whole money laundering scam...and when Auditor General Sheila Fraser first set off the alarm bells, Chretien had him sent off to Denmark as the new Canadian Ambassador to that distant land. Just so's he would be far away from any Canadian reporters who might want to ask him some very pertinent questions about the large scale theft of Canadian tax dollars.

Then, as King Jean was leaving office..he gave Gagliano a big fat raise in pay. A _RETROACTIVE_ raise in pay. Just to ensure continuing silence.

Gagliano is also now under investigation. He is no longer Ambassador to Denmark.

-Jean Pelletier has now been fired as head of ViaRail. And is now under investigation. The above posts in this thread explain exactly why. He was ALSO a very close friend of Jean Chretien and is one of the key figures in the theft of taxpayers dollars that the Auditor General exposed in her report.

So...who's next in this particular den of thieves? The President of Canada Post? The head of the BDC?

There's a BUNCH of them! And they ALL need to be fired and then investigated.

And I wonder how soon it is before one of them decides to speak out about who was behind all of this? Who actually used his absolute power to make it all possible?

Quiet a "legacy", Jean Chretien..    

Stay tuned. There's more to come.

MUCH more.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

The number two guy at ViaRail is now about to be fired!

He was also a close friend of Jean Chretien..and has also been implicated in the Sponsorship scandal.

And Paul Martin is faced with the daunting prospect of firing pretty much ALL of the old-time Chretien controlled members of the Federal Liberal Party.  

This will exacerbate Paul Martin's already tenuous hold on the Federal Liberal Party. There will be serious infighting.

This internal chaos in the Federal Liberal Party will occur during thr runup to thr election


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

And we'll end up with a Liberal Party purged of greedy incompetents (some of whom will have joined the Conservatives). Methinks this is a good thing and I think the electorate will agree.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Jim, I would tend to agree with this view. If Martin can show a true difference between his Liberal Party, and the one run by Chretien, then he might just be reelected. We shall see.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I just hope he goes far enough. There is a LOT of rot, after ten years of Chretien/Corruption.  

I should also note that recent polls have shown that Paul Martin is quite a bit more popular than his Liberal party at this particular moment in time.

I'm not sure if this will translate into a Liberal majority...or a Paul Martin victory with a massive loss for the Liberals.

Just don't know right now. It certainly is a dynamic situation. Anything could happen...and a lot depends on what the inquiry(s) manage to uncover in the brief period before election day.

Should be an interesting ride.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

So, what's the count at this point?

Three or four of Jean Chretians cronies uncerimoniosly turfed from their patronage appointments? Without compensation or a pension?

Alphonse Gagliano fired as "Ambassador to Denmark"?
(The real joke is that he ever had any sort of credentials for the job in the first place)
















Sheila Copps...Chretien's Deputy Prime Minister...uncerimoniously eliminated from her longtime stronghold of Hamilton. Unable to even RUN in the next Federal Election??

Several prominent Liberals leaving the Party to sit as Independants or joining the Conservative Party!









The polls showing the Federal Liberals on a major losing streak. About to lose most of their Quebec seats and a signifigant portion of their Ontario seats. About to be wiped out everywhere else in the country.

All because of the widespread and well documented corruption that was a major part of the Chretien era.

Canadians are totally SICK of this. They all want a change. BIg Time!

Prepare yourselves, long term Liberal supporters. You are in for a BIG change in the coming months.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper is riding into town.

And , afterwards, Canada will never be the same.   

Trust me on this


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## mmp (Oct 20, 2001)

I think that the Liberal Party under Paul Martin is the most viable and best option for the forseeable future. I am tired of hearing about the sponsorship scandal until it has been fully explored. Money sems to be the issue with all people. $250 million Canadian...hmmmm what would you have done with your $8.50 (that's right eight dollars and fifty cents)?

Bigger issues out there. The new Conservative Party blocks Grant Devine from running for their party here in Saskatchewan and gets little press nationaly, big surprise. He did nothing illegal and can't run! WOW!! you want to talk about a grassroots party! Also, this was decided by a three person panel from the national party, had nothing to do with the riding or riding association. 

Jack Leighton is a moron and there are a significant number of NDP former MP's and backers moving to Paul Martin's camp. Wow what a find Shelia Copps would be for the NDP!

The gun registry was and is a farce, that was a large scale waste of money. No ifs ands or buts.

I'm not defending the sponsorship scandal, what I am saying is that in today's day and age $250 million is not as much as it sounds and I find the stalling of Grant Devine as a candadate as a greater democratic issue and a strong statement of what this new style party is all about. I'll judge Martin after the scandal has been dealt with. Leadership is the entire issue here and there has been a great void with Mr. Cretien.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Prime Minister Stephen Harper is riding into town.


macnutt, my $100 is ready for the taking if you're willing to bet
i keep asking and you keep ignoring
perhaps you are personally opposed to wagering?
if so, i will refrain from asking again
if not, then why not put your money where your keyboard is?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Michael, I consider you to be my friend. I have no intention of wagering with a friend. It just creates friction and resentment. No matter who "wins".

I would prefer that we stay on a different level. One of mutual respect, while we argue from opposite sides of the fence. Fair enough?

Now....on to the latest Federal Liberal Scandal...

This week the Department of National Defense came out and said that several millions of dollars were taken from their scant budget and spent on work that wasn't done. Taxpayer money was spent...but there was nothing in return

AGAIN by a group of Liberal-friendlies who are well known scam artists.  

Add this to the muti-billion HRDC scam from two years back, and add this to all of the multi-million dollar "studies" about the helicopters we didn't actually buy (although we have spent almost as much money "not buying" them as we would have to actually buy them)...and add that to all of the other major boondoggles that have cost us many MANY billions of dollars while Chretien and Co. were looting the treasury and mismanaging our money...

And I have a great deal of trouble with ANYBODY who simply excuses this massive theft of our hard-earned money as "inconsequential".







 

Imagine what all these billions...yes, I said BILLIONS...would have done, had they been directed into real Government programs to benefit the Canadian people...instead of into the offshore bank accounts of Chretien and his criminal buddies?

I say FIRE these bastards right NOW! ALL of them!! And prosecute ALL of them to the letter of the law (this includes Chretien, by the way) and make sure that they ALL spend many years in jail! Sieze their assets and sell them, and return the stolen money to the Canadian people. Where it belongs!

Paul Martin has made a few tentative steps in this direction. But he has to walk on eggs while trying not to pi** off the well-entrenched "Old Guard" of the Federal Liberal Party. Who are, by the way, totally addicted to stealing from each and every one of us. On a daily basis.  

So we have two choices here, in the upcoming Federal Election:

1) Re-elect the crooks, give them a vote of confidence, and hope that they will stop stealing from us. (good luck on THAT!)

2) Or...dump them en masse and charge the incoming Government with the responsibility of prosecuting EVERY SINGLE one of the crooks. In every way they can!

Option one will tell the crooks that we still love them, no matter what they do to us.

Option two will send them to jail and sieze their ill-gotten gains. This will be a pretty clear message to them and to all subsequent Governments of Canada. 

One choice will be an approval of the major theft, by the voting public of Canada. The other choice will likely discourage any and all further corruption at the highest levels, by showing just exactly what will happen to those who engage in this sort of behavior.

Voting day is rapidly approaching.

Your choice. Make it a good choice.

The future of Canada is in your hands.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

*Praise the Liberal Government!!*

Thank God the future of Canada is in Liberal hands!

Imagine an idiotic right wing Canadian policy resulting in the AlQaeda bombing of Toronto or Montreal!

Macnutt and the rest of us are surely grateful for Chretien's wisdom in assessing the wishes of Canadians and acting accordingly, unlike the stupid and lethal decision made by Spanish pres Axnar to take Bush's bribe of military hardware and defy the wishes of 90% of the Spanish people.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Considering the fact that numerous radical Islamic groups are currently living and working in Canada, according to both our own internal security services and pretty much everyone else...

Then I think it's only a matter of time before we see the same sort of horrible terrorist act on our own soil. According to news reports, we have only just barely managed to avoid attacks on nuclear plants in Ontario and the Parliament buildings in Ottawa, among others. Numerous arrests have been made...but it's only a matter of time and chance till it finally happens here.

And we never even participated in the invasion of Iraq!  

The people of Spain have just been successfully manipulated by Al Qaeda. The explosions and the subsequent murder and maiming of nearly two thousand people in a crowded train station was a total success for the terrorists. The timing..just before an election..got them just exactly what they wanted.

By murdering a massive number of peaceful people who were just going about their daily tasks, at JUST the right moment...they managed to change the Government of a soverign democracy and reverse the foreign policy of that land.

And it only cost them a few truckloads of explosives and a handful of detonators to do it.

This is a very clear message to them. It WORKED!!







 

Now we can expect much more of this. In many more places.

Great. Just great.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Could you supply a news link on those near attacks on Canadian nuclear facilities?

If it's the incident involving Pickering that made the news last year you should be aware that was the result of someone's over fertile imagination.

The RCMP quickly distanced themselves from it and the charges were dropped.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Money money money money money money money...

Thats apparently what the federal Liberals were really after when they fought so hard to win each election. They just wanted free and unfettered access to Canada's tax money. (and they DIDN'T want anyone looking over their shoulders while they sytematically raided this giant cookie jar, either. Which is why they never gave a second thought to a real elected and equal and effective Canadian Senate)

We should have realised what these corrupt clowns were all about when they summarily DUMPED all of the policies and promises that they had so loudly claimed they were commited to BEFORE each election, and then went back to stealing our tax dollars on a massive scale...once they were safely back into power.

They did this after EACH federal election, BTW!

It's one of the oldest tricks in the book! It's the old "Bait and switch" scam! 

So...how come its taken us so darned long to figure this out about the Liberal Party?

And how come some people around here STILL haven't figured it out? And are STILL willing to support the Liberals???


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Hey MacNutt! What did you do, search every thread with Liberal in it last night?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MacNutt said:


> Money money money money money money money...
> 
> Thats apparently what the federal Liberals were really after when they fought so hard to win each election. They just wanted free and unfettered access to Canada's tax money. (and they DIDN'T want anyone looking over their shoulders while they sytematically raided this giant cookie jar, either. Which is why they never gave a second thought to a real elected and equal and effective Canadian Senate)
> 
> ...



because the hellspawn of the Reform/Alliance/Progressive Conservative into the Conservative is more evil than the Liberals

That is why the Canandian voters support the Liberals. They are scared of the Consevativtes and their war mongering, universal medicare killing ways.

Bring back the PC of Robert Standfield and maybe we have some room to negotiate.

By the way, how is NAFTA working out for softwood lumber and the cattle industries? Where's the beef, eh?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Michael..the "hellspawn of the Conservatives" is likely to be your next functioning Canadian majority government. Best to deal with that simple reality as soon as possible. Just to make it a bit more palatable in your own mind.

Since it looks like the federal Liberals as we know them now will be doing a realistic impression of the Edmund Fitzgerald in the next few weeks or months (sudden disaster and disappearence with almost no visible wreckage left floating on the surface)...

Then I have to suggest that you take a few moments to realign your senesibilities. Just to reflect the new paradigm.

Only a thought. Take it for what it is.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

No real reply, macspectrum?

C'mon, old buddy. You can do better than that. In fact...I EXPECT better from a bright guy like you. 

Perhaps you are too busy watching the Liberal melt-down on TV these days? I have to admit...it's a fascinating spectacle. Kind of like watching a massive pod of powerful whales suddenly beach themselves and die.

While a few regular humans try vainly to push them back into the lifegiving sea.

A valiant, but ultimately futile, effort. Most will die and leave bleached carcasses on a beach somewhere.

It's terribly sad...but it's also really just nature correcting a problem. The gene pool cleaning itself.

Best to deal with it. In whatever way you can.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I suspect the next act in this particular passion play will be presented to us all tonight.

Should be a good watch. (Do we vote Paul Martin off the island? Or does he have immunity?) 

And what will be left over, once all of the smoke and mirrors are gone?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> No real reply, macspectrum?


Give me an "H"!
Give me a "Y"!
Give me a "P"!
.....

You know where this is going, MacNutt.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> And what will be left over, once all of the smoke and mirrors are gone?


A MacNutt?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm just wondering if you ever make any replies to this forum that _DON'T _ seem to be obsessed with me, Ironmac?

I mean...I hope you don't mail me your severed ear or something....and I REALLY hope you're not going to show up at my door with a bag full of your own feces and a wild look on your face. I hate it when that happens.

Stalkers are so creepazoid. Last time I had one of those, I armed the claymores all over the property and waited for the big kaBOOM. Had to hose down the west wall of the garage afterwards. Yuckola.

Hope you get over this fascination soon. Really.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> I'm just wondering if you ever make any replies to this forum that _DON'T _ seem to be obsessed with me, Ironmac?
> 
> Hope you get over this fascination soon. Really.


Then answer the challenge. 'Nuff said.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Now that we've settled that....

Back to regular programming! And back to saying "Shame on the Liberal Government". I'm sure we'll have a brand new reason to do so today. Or tomorrow at the latest.

The hits just keep on comin!


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