# Nobody talking about the leak?



## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

*Nobody talking about the Tiger GM leak?????*

I searched but couldnt find it? I can't belive no one has said anything about the apparant Tiger GM leak?

Here is the running tally on software that officially isnt working with Tiger according to where the torrent is posted and the 489 comments of discussion...

Littlesnitch
Stuffit (reinstall required to fix it)
Freeway Pro
The Official Bittorrent Client 4.0.1
Carbon Copy Cloner
Brickhouse


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

lindmar said:


> the 489 comments of discussion...


Where?


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

gmark2000 said:


> Where?



im not sure if its appropriate to post the seed to the torrent here... however...
its not hard to find...
even a few of the big news sites had links directly to the torrent..

I think you all need to be checking the applewire.com ever hour!


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

This is disgusting that Tiger's Gold Master is pirated already. I feel sick that people are so low.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

gmark2000 said:


> This is disgusting that Tiger's Gold Master is pirated already. I feel sick that people are so low.



Too be honest.. I don't really understand your disgust though? 

1) it was bound to happen.... 150% bound to happen... 
2) "most" people will still buy it anyways

lets face it, people arn't low. They are human and are excited and they want it now now now now...

Apple is lucky to have made it this long.. Its like music, any major release is leaked at leasy 4 days before.. always... no matter what..

The rumor is here that someone might have snapped a disc from the disc printing company in china


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## jdurston (Jan 28, 2005)

I don't like to see pirated software. It will just make Apple add more crap to the install process like microsoft. 

Its kind of disappointing to see. I almost wish people wouldn't talk about the leak so it wouldn't irk undo attention from the wrong sources. To late now its everywhere.  
-Josh


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

I think your wrong in that sense...apple wont be adding crap to the install process like microsoft..

I think you have to see it in another more positive light.. the more hype.. the more apple computers sell.. the better for apple.... 

The downside... they keep telling us with more and more users we WILL egt more viruses and spyware and crap.. I dont know though...

I mean... one needs to only read some of the lawsuits stuff from apple against some of the mac torrent sites... They (apple) basically said.. they dont have a problem with apple software posted after its release.. its just before.......

they knew all those sites were running with ilife, panther ect.. but when stuff was getting "pre released" then they got pissed.. so I can see how they will br angry... but seriously.. 
Jobs isnt dumb.. he knew the Tiger days were numbered...

They way they need "iStore" it shoudl all be digital and they send you a box or manual in the mail if you want it.. just like iTunes...


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

And if somebody uploads/seeds a deliberately messed-up installer or otherwise doctored version, it's Apple's rep on the line.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

iMatt said:


> And if somebody uploads/seeds a deliberately messed-up installer or otherwise doctored version, it's Apple's rep on the line.



well yes.. thats absolutley a drawback...


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

iMatt said:


> And if somebody uploads/seeds a deliberately messed-up installer or otherwise doctored version, it's Apple's rep on the line.


That's what happened when someone posted a supposed 'pre-release' MS Word 2004 for Mac and it was a trojan application. That made news... that Macs were penetrated by a virus - not!


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## ArtificiaLard (Feb 8, 2005)

> Littlesnitch
> Stuffit (reinstall required to fix it)
> Freeway Pro
> The Official Bittorrent Client 4.0.1
> ...


It's not unexpected that programs dealing with the actual machinations of the OS itself, Carbon Copy Cloner, Brickhouse, Stuffit, Little Snitch, would have problems, since the framework and assumptions the program functions on would change.

'Normal' programs that simply function without making direct modifications to the computer's operating behaviour, such as Office or FireFox should work the majority of the time.


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## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

I have never been able to understand why anyone would want to use a pirated OS anyways. The interface, to me, is the most worthwhile thing to actually spend $ on. If that's not stable, then nothing else seems to be either. It's a dumb idea, regardless of the ethics of ripping off a company that everyone around here claims to love so much....


James


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

thejst said:


> I have never been able to understand why anyone would want to use a pirated OS anyways. The interface, to me, is the most worthwhile thing to actually spend $ on. If that's not stable, then nothing else seems to be either. It's a dumb idea


I couldn't agree more.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

For one, the OS comes with the computers (so no extra charge there as in the Windows world) and for two the upgrade isn't that expensive.

Besides Apple's user base is small enough that they could probably nail you real good for stealing. 

So there's three good reasons already not to do it. But fools still wander where Saints fear to tread.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

I think there's one Major point here.. that hasn't been brought up. A lot of people.. don't have the money to spend on something that they have never tried. And don't know if they can justify to themselves for spending "That" kind of money on something in which they have never tried. I agree.. like anything.. if you do steal it.. but it's worth the upgrade then buy it. Use it as a demo. If you can't justify paying for it.. then.. get rid of it.. because it's just not worth the risk. I know a lot of people aren't going to agree with that scenario.. but that's just how I feel.. as I don't always have/can justify spending a decent amount of money on something I've never used.

For the record.. I haven't installed a "Pirated Version" of Tiger.. and I don't plan on it. I think Tiger is going to be worth the money and eventually.. I will end up purchasing it. But, there aren't many companies I would trust like I do Apple in that regard.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

http://news.com.com/Prison+terms+on+tap+for+prerelease+pirates/2100-1028_3-5677232.html?tag=nefd.top



> File-swappers who distribute a single copy of a prerelease movie on the Internet can be imprisoned for up to three years, under a bill that's slated to become the most dramatic expansion of online piracy penalties in years.
> 
> The bill, approved by Congress on Tuesday, is written so broadly it could make a federal felon of anyone who has even one copy of a film, software program or music file in a shared folder and should have known the copyrighted work had not been commercially released. Stiff fines of up to $250,000 can also be levied. Penalties would apply regardless of whether any downloading took place.


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

The one point that this does make is how BT could be used for _good_. How long has it taken since someone at the pressing plant in China uploaded the .img for thousands of copies to be spread? 

BT was originally designed to help propagate large (legal) files over the internet. Any company in the world could roll out a highly anticiapted app this way (while making sure that some key was required to activate it), distribute it virtually for free, aoviding shipping delays, packaging and media costs. 

I know that there are a lot of people who are using this method to pirate the s/w and that is clearly wrong, but a lot of the action I'm sure is from people who just want it _now_ and, if they were able to go to the "corner mac store" and buy it, would do that instead. 

Unfortunately, b/c of a flawed (out of date) distribution model, this is not an option available to them.

Edit - Yes I know that activation keys are a flawed security system but, clearly, distributing your s/w on hard media is worse.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

one thing that I don't think anyone touched on is that in 8 days everyone will have the chance to upload their versions and spread them for free on the networks anyway.

Makes no diff to me if it's now or later....it will be available and it's up to Apple users to support the company they love by buying from them and not downloading it for free.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Vexel said:


> I think there's one Major point here.. that hasn't been brought up. A lot of people.. don't have the money to spend on something that they have never tried. And don't know if they can justify to themselves for spending "That" kind of money on something in which they have never tried.


Sorry, this does not wash at all, IMO. We're talking about a <b>completely optional</b> $149 upgrade for computers that start at $700 and top $5,000 loaded. If you can afford the gear, you can afford the upgrade. If you've got the brains to use the gear, you've got the brains to investigate the upgrade's features and benefits without pirating a copy. If you cleaned out your bank account to pay for the gear, then you can wait until you've got the cash again, which has the added bonus of letting early adopters try out the software for you and provide real-world user reports that can help you decide if it's for you.

Personally I'll be short of cash for a few months. Downloading a potentially corrupt OS copy from strangers in the interest of "trying before buying" is the last thing I want to do, because it has the potential of hosing my machine and causing a lot of unnecessary frustration. And guess what Apple's going to say if I call for support because the Tiger I downloaded hosed my machine?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

gmark2000 said:


> This is disgusting that Tiger's Gold Master is pirated already. I feel sick that people are so low.


You would be surprised what some people expect.
I used to sell a lot of computers and it always amazed me that people expect the software for free (Mac as well as on the PC side).

You could sell a Mac and the person would expect to have free expensive software...

What's ironic is that alot of consultants will "give" software, as they charge and make a lot of money on their time.

Many service calls I used to get were for problems with pirated software that they had installed. How are you supposed to fix that? You don't but you often loose the business.

Although we hear alot about individuals pirating, in my experience it's firms that do most of it.
I once tried to report widespread use of pirated software at a private graphic design school (it was really rampant), well, unless I had "written" proof that the administrator knew of it, they would not investigate. 

Piracy is a problem and should be balanced with my right to privacy. Nothing pisses me off more than software that calls home. Do I need BBedit to tell me there is a new version available everytime I launch? No.
Do I like that Apple tells me there are updates available? No - I'll go look myself.


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## dthompson101 (Jan 16, 2001)

Pirating is WRONG!!! Don't do it!!!

I for 1 am not happy with all the people ripping off Apple (or other companies) hard work and labour. As a legal appleseeder (and not a pay for it ADC member either), I have watched the server portion get even tighter for serilaization and legalization. This brings us, the Apple Users a step back in time and brings the whole system under a more "big brother" approach to computer usage.

The people that go and steal, file share, and use illegal copies are just asking for Apple to turn around and introduce serial numbers to the client version of the OS. This has already happened with their applications as well:
Keynote 2.0
Pages 1.0
Apple Remote Desktop 2.0
and so on...If people keep it up, the client will get serialized!

I don't care that it's human nature and that you want want want before you can have it. The last I heard, people were not breaking into game shops to steal the PSP machines before they were available. It's the same damned thing here, just instead of hardware, people seem to think it's okay to steal software. ITS NOT!!!

Then when Apple (and other companies) put in serialization mechanisms and make it harder to work with the technology daily, it benefits no one, raises the cost of the hardware and software and then the same people who bitch about having to enter a serial number and that Apple is more M$ like then ever have no one to blame except themselves!!!!

You people that steal make me mad. To see a community that loves the product so much yet steal from the same company makes me sick....

I spent the last 8 months beta testing the server and sending in reports back to Apple engineers to help make it a better product. I sacrifice my servers in order to help the end users once it's finished. I don't get paid for it, hell I don't even get a final product in most cases. The serial numbers I have expire, yadda, yadda, yadda.

The people that say "It's not worth the price" then I have an answer for you. DON'T BUY IT!!! If you don't want to pay for it, then don't upgrade. Stick with the OS you have or better yet, make the jump to the dark side and steal all you want. Leave a computer system that is much more open and less controlled just that.

/rant


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> Although we hear alot about individuals pirating, in my experience it's firms that do most of it.


Amen. I once worked in an office where they did plenty of work for blue-chip clients, but were too damned cheap to buy more than two out of the five or six copies of Photoshop that they really needed. Even back then (1995-97, versions 3 and 4), Photoshop had piracy protection: it would check the local network for the same serial number and refuse to launch if it found the same number already running. 

So we had the absurd situation of designers doing work for some of Canada's biggest companies (with their hours billed out at 3-4 times their pay, which theoretically covers overhead like software), and constantly going on the network to move files around and off the network to be able to use Photoshop. It was part of the normal workflow for the freelance designers who would come in, because they were used to doing the same thing elsewhere, including at the in-house design departments of some major, major companies.

At another company, I asked my boss for the full version of Acrobat. A couple of days later he gave me a burned disc produced by one of his buddies at another company. There were many different sessions and all kinds of junk on the disc. I tried installing Acrobat from it, but it wouldn't work even though the boss swore up and down that his buddy said it would "if you installed it right." Must have forgotten to give me the serial number crack. 

Even (maybe especially) at places where they made a point of displaying the original boxes on a bookshelf to show anyone who came through that we were legal, pirating software was ridiculously common.

As individuals or businesses, people are people and they'll try to get something for nothing with shocking regularity.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

i think apple has been silly to not introduce some kind of piracy protection into their OS. now they have employees at a disc pressing facility leaking fully unprotected software to the net.

we can implore those who download software illegally to change their ways but it's never going to happen. the ONLY way to get software piracy under control is through protecting the install process. serial numbers alone aren't enough.

apple knows this, and has likely built the cost of piracy into their business model. therefore, we who actually buy tiger will be subsidising those who have downloaded illegally.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Vexel said:


> I think there's one Major point here.. that hasn't been brought up. A lot of people.. don't have the money to spend on something that they have never tried.


This is not directed at you per se but....BS!

If you don't have the money to pay for something, save up. I don't have the money for that Ferrari I've had my eye on but that doesn't mean I'm going to steal it.

This "don't have the money to spend on something..." attitude pisses me off. Boo hoo. So you don't have the money - well, life's tough, get a helmet.


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## Howard2k (Feb 9, 2005)

I'd have NO problem with them implementing some copy protection features. Seems like a great idea to me.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> This is not directed at you per se but....BS!
> 
> If you don't have the money to pay for something, save up. I don't have the money for that Ferrari I've had my eye on but that doesn't mean I'm going to steal it.


Sure, but you can at least test drive that Ferrari.

I understand where consumers get burned by paying for poor software. 
The "try before you buy" is a good business model.
How else can you evaluate a product? By the pretty images on the box?


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## spg (Mar 30, 2005)

Its good that everyone is on their high-horse about pirating [hope you have a licence for everything you own...], but a valid point is that companies factor pirating into their plans. Granted an OS is different then applications. Still, a company that wants to increase its market share, like Apple does, will be well serviced by more people using their newest product. The more people running Tiger means more word of mouth, or maybe Mac users don't really want increasaed market share.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Howard2k said:


> I'd have NO problem with them implementing some copy protection features. Seems like a great idea to me.


Sure, but what kind?
The move seems to be having some kind of online validation.
It's gone too far.
For example, if I need "help" with Office, it has to connect to the net...
What happened to having computers that did not need to always connect to the web?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Gents you need a bit of history.
Apple flew a Pirate flag over HQ for many years ( esepcially the Mac team ) and was on the good guy side of the battle between the Hackers and the Priests that goes back to MIT days when computers first began. Much to do with secrecy versus freedom of information.

Some companies grew out of the events and the headspace went with them - some locked down - nothing open for review - others far more open and sharing ( it's still here in the form of Open source versus MS et al ). The tight asses made everything proprietary and in the end their companies failed.

Remember Jobs and Woz were in the back seat of a cop car with a blue box and if events had transpired just a little differently Apple would never be.

The case of OS8 was an eye opener for Apple - BECAUSE the underground community followed it so closely with the various releases they hyped it to the general Mac community in a way Apple simply could not and as a result sold waaaaaay more than they ever expected to.
BTW in my mind that OS8 team saved Apple more than any other single factor.

Other vendors also offer previews and even pre release bug testing to the general community. Painter sells lots because Painter Classic gives people a taste. Protools light is free. Office comes with a 30 day free trail on every Mac sold.

A bit of secrecy AND creative leaks build hype and confidence.
Some will always pirate - it's the bulk of the community that need to KNOW what to expect BEFORE they take the plunge.

Tiger has been tightly controlled to this point and now is getting that hype from the underground circulation and deservedly so. 

I suggest far more will go buy Tiger BECAUSE of the leak - they are getting real world info from "uncontrolled by Apple" sources.

The car companies play the game as well - secrecy plus leaks = buzz.

Most people exposed to new software that find it useful will buy it. If you are prevented from "test driving" or put through idiotic security hoops ( Quark  ) then they will look for alternatives or write it off entirely.

You can bet we'll get calls from people buying new machines with Tiger needing to go back to Panther for a bit BUT Tiger is superb especially for a release at this stage and I suspect we will see solutions to the hiccups solved quickly......

Now about those font issues


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

spg said:


> Its good that everyone is on their high-horse about pirating [hope you have a licence for everything you own...],


Yup.



> but a valid point is that companies factor pirating into their plans.


And the Gap factors shoplifting into its plans, so I think I'll go swipe those new jeans I need...hey, it's OK because it's "factored into their plans" so <i>somebody's</i> got to do it, so why not me? And really, I'd be doing them a favour, because I look great in jeans and the Gap's brand will be on display whenever I wear them, thus increasing their brand recognition and market share. 

Sorry, try again.



> The more people running Tiger means more word of mouth, or maybe Mac users don't really want increasaed market share.


Since Mas OS only runs on Apple hardware, all that's affected directly is the OS X adoption rate, not Apple's market share. And since many more people will acquire it legitimately than will download it, word of mouth from downloaders probably doesn't have a whole lot of value.

Regardless, pirating an OS over the net is just stupid for security reasons, all legal and ethical questions aside. If you download it, how do you know you're getting what you think you're getting? You can't. 

If you're going to justify piracy, at least be somewhat smart about it and rip it off from an original disc. Oh, wait. That would mean somebody would have to actually buy it. Nevermind.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

MacDoc, I don't buy this leaked-download-builds-buzz business. It may have been true once upon a time, but now now. A few thousand nitwits will download the software over the next week, but next Friday far more paying customers will line up to buy a legit copy (drawing news cameras to them), and in the three months after that Apple will ship roughly one million spankin' new computers with the new OS installed. 

The buzz is already huge, and there's no need for any leaks to build or sustain it.


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## spg (Mar 30, 2005)

iMatt said:


> Yup.


Congratulations.. guess you never experienced the joy of a mixtape then...





> And the Gap factors shoplifting into its plans, so I think I'll go swipe those new jeans I need...hey, it's OK because it's "factored into their plans" so <i>somebody's</i> got to do it, so why not me? And really, I'd be doing them a favour, because I look great in jeans and the Gap's brand will be on display whenever I wear them, thus increasing their brand recognition and market share.
> 
> Sorry, try again.


I wasn't justifying stealing, I was saying that a software company anticipates piracy and recognizes some of the benefits.




> Since Mas OS only runs on Apple hardware, all that's affected directly is the OS X adoption rate, not Apple's market share. And since many more people will acquire it legitimately than will download it, word of mouth from downloaders probably doesn't have a whole lot of value.


Oh yeah, so when my friends use my computer they don't experience the OS...



> Regardless, pirating an OS over the net is just stupid for security reasons, all legal and ethical questions aside. If you download it, how do you know you're getting what you think you're getting? You can't.


Valid, why I'll wait until the fall when I buy a new Mac. 



> If you're going to justify piracy, at least be somewhat smart about it and rip it off from an original disc. Oh, wait. That would mean somebody would have to actually buy it. Nevermind.


 Actually, would be how I'd get a copy... Your holy-than-thou attitude is nice, congrats on your piousness.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Sorry, you're right about my attitude in that post. 

First, we're talking about software, not music. Not the same for a whole host of reasons which would steer the thread of-topic. (To mention just one big difference: many of us make money from using software, but not from listening to music.)

As for your friends using your computer to experience the OS, this is a valid way to showcase the OS, and a service to Apple. But explain to me what it has to do with using a "try before you buy" pirated copy. I can't see any inherent connection.

So, I'm still puzzled. You, personally, aren't going to pirate 10.4, but you think there are benefits for Apple when others do it. Apple has plenty of paying customers willing to line up outside its stores and massive buzz/mindshare right now, but a few thousand overeager geeks (let's face it, that <i>is</i> the "market" for this leak) are somehow doing Apple a service? I just don't see it.

Yes, it's in Apple's interest for people to use its new OS, but it's even more in its interest for those users to purchase it.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You are looking at it from a consumer approach - pros have a far more skeptical look at buzz eminating from Apple - most recall 2 years of "buzz" about X before a useful OS surfaced so forgive us if we cast a jaundiced eye on Jobs spin.
Buzz needs substance.

That Apple happens to be on a roll right now does NOT remove the years of "THEY DID WHAT???*()^%^(&^%".........skepticism about untried OSes. Just look at the update histories for some "examples" - ask a few single G5 owners about their "improved firmware".

Incomes depend on this....the more eyes, the more unbiased eyes, the better. People wil be buying machines waiting on the release and knowing what to expect in the way of issues is very good thing.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Yes, it's in Apple's interest for people to use its new OS, but it's even more in its interest for those users to purchase it.


and it's EVEN MORE in Apple's interest to have solutions for the inevitable problems that will arise. It's does not end with the "purchase".....it ends when the purchase works.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Come on, what's the big deal?? It comes FREE with a new computer anyway, and that is what the emphasis is really on. Sure they want people to upgrade, and a lot will. But do you really think this is gonna cut into their bottom line? You're all making a big stink about nothing.


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## spg (Mar 30, 2005)

iMatt said:


> Sorry, you're right about my attitude in that post.
> 
> First, we're talking about software, not music. Not the same for a whole host of reasons which would steer the thread of-topic. (To mention just one big difference: many of us make money from using software, but not from listening to music.)
> 
> ...


That's right, I won't pirate a copy because I've been burned on my PC too many times to risk it, but I do accept that piracy (in all its forms, if you are going to take a stance against piracy it better be consistent...) is not without benefits. If I pirate a copy before I am ready to buy then while I am trying it out so will others using my machine. I have the (mis)fortune of having an apartment my friends like to hang out at. So, in other words, my trial directly coincides with others.


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## dthompson101 (Jan 16, 2001)

kloan said:


> Come on, what's the big deal?? It comes FREE with a new computer anyway, and that is what the emphasis is really on. Sure they want people to upgrade, and a lot will. But do you really think this is gonna cut into their bottom line? You're all making a big stink about nothing.


For the average person, thats one thing. "No big deal" But how about a school board that needs to license 5000+ copies of the OS? How much of a loss leader is it to apple to just let them have it?? BS.

Pirating is pirating. hands down. If I walked into your house and stole your new 42" plasma, you would be pissed and call the cops to have me arrested if and when you found out who did it.

Apple is in the same boat. They have had their property (10.4) stolen and want to get to the bottom of it! I applaud them for doing so as well. There are leakers (both inside and outside) and I for 1 agree that both sides should be fined, sued, have charges laid against them in order to stop this nonsense from happening.

Take 5000 machines in a school board, multiply that by the cost (less the educational and bulk order discount) and they are out a lot of money. Don't forget writing and programming that OS wasn't free and you can bet that it wasn't cheap either! A lot of man hours and time went into building it.

How about companies that have large deployments of Macs? This is a large area where apple NOW makes money off of the products. If they wanted everyone to be able to have it, they could open it up and offer it via the GPL in which anyone could modify it. That being said, it's not free, and it shouldn't be pirated!


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

FWIW, Apple is predominantly a hardware company first, a software company a very close second, it is because of this I believe that is why Apple has never implemented copy protection.

I'd like to throw in my 2 cents, along with a reiteration of ehMac's policy so things don't go too far.

ehMac's policy is that talking about warez of any kind is unacceptable. That is, asking where or how to steal/crack software is not allowed. However, talking about programs that do have good and bad uses (eg. Limewire, BitTorrent) are fine. Also, discussing piracy as seen in this thread is fine, however posting things that would be obviously illegal (eg. breaking an NDA and discussing a product, sharing it, or providing screenshots) is not allowed.

Piracy (which gets away with more then you'd think due to the romantic debonair air that surrounds it) is a common occurrence, as sad as it is.



MacDoc said:


> The car companies play the game as well - secrecy plus leaks = buzz.


If used as a marketing strategy, it's quite effective but if people are sharing your unreleased secrets with everyone will you have any buzz when you actually announce the product? It's like finding out what you are getting for Christmas before it comes out.

Most of what I feel about software piracy has already been said, as it does have a few unusual "good" points, but it is a problem that I only see Draconian solutions for. Quark Activation anyone?


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

Everybody is complaining about this pirating issue, which I have to admit I am guilty of since I have to try before I buy under my terms - I've spent enough of my hard earned money on software that ends up sitting on the shelf because it doesn't do what it promises ... but what I thought software pirating was the making and selling of counterfeit software and distributing it as the real deal.

What's wrong with an individual trying something on his terms and then making a choice to buy or dump? I have tried a lot of software and I have only bought a few ... some were so bad that they were trashed minutes after installing and others I found that I could use on a daily basis and they did what I expect so I bought.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Here is a question:

If a person has already paid for OS 10.4, is it ok to download it while waiting for his or her copy to arrive?

Discuss.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

simon said:


> Everybody is complaining about this pirating issue, which I have to admit I am guilty of since I have to try before I buy under my terms - I've spent enough of my hard earned money on software that ends up sitting on the shelf because it doesn't do what it promises ... but what I thought software pirating was the making and selling of counterfeit software and distributing it as the real deal.
> 
> What's wrong with an individual trying something on his terms and then making a choice to buy or dump? I have tried a lot of software and I have only bought a few ... some were so bad that they were trashed minutes after installing and others I found that I could use on a daily basis and they did what I expect so I bought.


On that note, some people can't afford to spend $10,000 on software, so why should they be excluded from using that software? I know I'm going to get a lot of backlash for this comment, but I don't think it's fair for people not to be allowed to reap the full benefits of a computer, simply because they cannot afford to spend $1000 on video editing software, or $3000 on 3D. If someone is using that software, and making good money, then yes they should buy that software. But for the individual who just likes to tinker around with software doing the odd project here and there, I really don't see the harm in using that software "illegally".

And puuuuulease, it's not the same as going into someone's home and stealing their TV. Please come up with an analogy that actually fits the situation.

I agree it would be wrong for a school to "pirate" the OS and distribute it among 5000 computers, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a "leak", a premature release, where a few individuals are installing it on their computer and checking out what the latest OS X has in store. This isn't going to cause the least bit of harm to Apple.


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

Where is it written (I'm sure you have heard this before) that life is fair. I can't afford to pay for a ride on the space shuttle because I don't make enough money. Tough beans for me. I can't afford (regularly), $200 bottles of wine so I buy $15-$40 bottles of wine. We are not entitled to this stuff unless we pony up the greenbacks dude.


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## Digital_Gary (Sep 18, 2003)

Carex said:


> Where is it written (I'm sure you have heard this before) that life is fair. I can't afford to pay for a ride on the space shuttle because I don't make enough money. Tough beans for me. I can't afford (regularly), $200 bottles of wine so I buy $15-$40 bottles of wine. We are not entitled to this stuff unless we pony up the greenbacks dude.



nicely put


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

PosterBoy said:


> Here is a question:
> 
> If a person has already paid for OS 10.4, is it ok to download it while waiting for his or her copy to arrive?
> 
> Discuss.


Yes. Not much of a discussion sorry.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Carex said:


> Where is it written (I'm sure you have heard this before) that life is fair. I can't afford to pay for a ride on the space shuttle because I don't make enough money. Tough beans for me. I can't afford (regularly), $200 bottles of wine so I buy $15-$40 bottles of wine. We are not entitled to this stuff unless we pony up the greenbacks dude.


Yet another predictable and typical response to the subject of using "pirated" software.

Whatever.. while you can go ahead and try to compare using software to riding a shuttle to the moon, I will continue to use as much software as I like, and feel 100% fine about it.


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

I would be perfectly happy with Apple releasing new OS upgrades (on BitTorrent) with a 30 day try it then buy it policy. Just Archive and Install, auto-lock the previous OS folder (so that it would be there unchanged after the trial period) and shut down the new one after 30 days.

Cheap distribution, community-based distribution, avoid unnecessary packaging/shipping, get the OS to people way way faster than the DVD pressing system. Make fully packaged copies available for those who require it or are simply willing to wait.

Granted Apple could just put it on their servers but I suspect that BT would be more efficient for the peak loads that a major OS release would engender.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

mycatsnameis said:


> Yes. Not much of a discussion sorry.


mcni - On the legal standpoint I'd have to disagree with you. It's still pre-release software and has been "stolen".

On a personal ethical standpoint, personally I see little problem with doing so because it is only a week away, I've already paid for it, and impatience must be a ingrained virtue in North American society.

However, the biggest reason that the piracy scene is so large is not because people are wanting to steal computer software, but simply because they can. It's the thrill of getting a program and beating the protection around it. For those who just want or often actually use the program, it's much more gratifying to install and get on your way using the program.


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

gmark2000 said:


> This is disgusting that Tiger's Gold Master is pirated already. I feel sick that people are so low.


Isn't it great what the Information Superhighway is driving for!

Remember when Star Wars Episode I was leaked early?
I interviewed the guy responsible for my documentary, and this is quite the common occurance for movies games, appz and OS's, they compete with other roups to see who can get it first. It's insane!


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## deep (Jul 3, 2003)

Despite the rumour sites saying it has leaked to the underworld, Apple has kept 
a very tight grip on the distribution of this newest OS. They have already pursued 2 separate individuals(one from Vancouver, i think) for seeding pre-release builds as torrents, setting a precedence for Apple. Most P2P pirates are unable to see the build number on most networks and will most likely end up with an unfinished alpha version that is useless. The real cheap-skates out their will wait until after the release event to get a proper bootleg of it, but ankle-bitters and crumb-snatchers exist at the bottom of every computing community, hopefully they will generate sales of Apple hardware.

IMHO, the OS it the finest creation Apple offers and would gladly pay full price for it even though i will receive a free copy bundled with my new PowerMac (to be announced, eventually).


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

deep said:


> Despite the rumour sites saying it has leaked to the underworld, Apple has kept
> a very tight grip on the distribution of this newest OS. They have already pursued 2 separate individuals(one from Vancouver, i think) for seeding pre-release builds as torrents, setting a precedence for Apple. Most P2P pirates are unable to see the build number on most networks and will most likely end up with an unfinished alpha version that is useless. The real cheap-skates out their will wait until after the release event to get a proper bootleg of it, but ankle-bitters and crumb-snatchers exist at the bottom of every computing community, hopefully they will generate sales of Apple hardware.
> 
> IMHO, the OS it the finest creation Apple offers and would gladly pay full price for it even though i will receive a free copy bundled with my new PowerMac (to be announced, eventually).


sorry to dissapoint but its the real thing... this has already been determined...


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

Chealion said:


> mcni - On the legal standpoint I'd have to disagree with you. It's still pre-release software and has been "stolen".
> 
> On a personal ethical standpoint, personally I see little problem with doing so because it is only a week away, I've already paid for it, and impatience must be a ingrained virtue in North American society.


You're right actually but for different reasons. The primary reason that it is wrong is that (unless you're running a hacked BT client) you are mandated to share (i.e. upload) the file as you are downloading it which is against the civil code in Western jurisdictions (and in the case of software, vs. music, possibly against the criminal code).


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

lindmar - It's worth noting there are several versions floating around. It would be quite easy for an unknowing person to grab the wrong bootleg copy and have tremendous problems. Hence why Apple doesn't want pre-release software available publicly.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

Chealion said:


> lindmar - It's worth noting there are several versions floating around. It would be quite easy for an unknowing person to grab the wrong bootleg copy and have tremendous problems. Hence why Apple doesn't want pre-release software available publicly.


Knowing Apple's track record with 1st generation hardware and software, why would anyone take a chance running 10.4.0, let alone a hacked BETA?

I'm not touching a legal copy of Tiger until I know the build is stable, and relatively problem free.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

jicon said:


> Knowing Apple's track record with 1st generation hardware and software, why would anyone take a chance running 10.4.0, let alone a hacked BETA?
> 
> I'm not touching a legal copy of Tiger until I know the build is stable, and relatively problem free.


I understand what you guys are saying.. but its not a hacked beta...
this has already been conclusivley proven on hundreds of sites in the past 24 hours..
Im not wanting to argue with any of you about this or the legalities of piracy... but its the GM...


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## Carl (Jun 7, 2003)

Real.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Carl said:


> Real.


yup. real.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

I have posted a poll with the express purpose to get an idea on how many people are using the Tiger GM build, and partially as to their reasoning without revealing who they are.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

if I was Steve J., I'd release Tiger for free, all over, and after 1 month of use, The system would ask you to pay for it by slowly mutating to windows xp. with Viruses, crashes, the works.

Everybody would fork the bucks, pronto!!!!


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## goobertech (Jan 24, 2005)

gastonbuffet said:


> if I was Steve J., I'd release Tiger for free, all over, and after 1 month of use, The system would ask you to pay for it by slowly mutating to windows xp. with Viruses, crashes, the works.
> 
> Everybody would fork the bucks, pronto!!!!


Or seed their own "hacked' version that emails every one in the address book " Hi , I steal software , some one worked hard to produce this software but I don't care . I am a greedy crook . Please tell me to either pay for this software or remove it from my computer . That way the people and companies that produce good software are compensated for their work and can continue to produce good software . Thank You"

and have the sound system emit the sound that smoke detectors make , all the time ,


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

My conclusion is.. EVERYONE is different... and everyone has different views on "what is ok." I agree personally... Stealing is wrong. But, if someone had a "hot" iPod Photo and were selling it for $200 CAD, I don't know that anyone would give that opportunity up. That is my little metaphor for the dilema. I also believe in being able to review something that I am going to drop a good amount of money on. The Apple reseller in my City, doesn't even have a Demo machine, let alone a copy of Tiger I could play with. The next closest Reseller is 5 Hours away.. and I'm not even sure they are still running. So, should I just pony up and buy Tiger? Or.. should I download it and see if I would like to actually purchase it? I would know within a day or two... and would probably be able to purchase it within that amount of time.

The idea here.. was to point out.. that there are definitely different "Life" situations for people. And, this will affect directly their views on certain things. Honestly, I would love to be able to walk into a store.. and play with Tiger once it's released. But for me, that isn't an option, and if I were to take a trip, it would cost me more in gas than the actual cost of buying Tiger upon it's release.

Thanks guys, hope I cleared up my situation a little.. I'm sure a lot of others are in the same boat.

ps: The only reason I have my computers right now.. is because I could purchase them from my Dad who can finance them through work. Otherwise.. I wouldn't be able to enjoy this beautiful OS, and possibly not even own a single computer, Mac or PC. As the funds just aren't there. I however, can afford to spend $40 every 2 weeks on my iBook.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

lindmar said:


> I understand what you guys are saying.. but its not a hacked beta...
> QUOTE]
> 
> Actually, I'm thinking you don't understand what I poorly tried to point out.
> ...


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

> Let's get some more feedback of what's broken in the OS.


See the first post...there was a list already started there.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

I understand why people think this kind of "wild distribution" is good for Apple, and I don't want to flog the poor dead horse into oblivion, so I'll make one last post to this thread summing up why I believe these "benefits" are greatly exaggerated. If you were waiting for a direct response to a post, please consider this to be it. (This started out as a reply to MacDoc, but it grew to cover more ground than his post, so it's for everybody.)

First, on the "giving feedback/reporting experiences" benefit:

We're about to be flooded by reviews from various more-or-less credible, above-board sources (Ars, OS News, Macintouch, etc., and numerous mainstream outlets). Apple has already been using alpha and beta testers from outside Apple for months and months. Droves of eager early adopters are about to (foolishly, IMO) install a legitimately purchased .0 release of the new OS and flood online forums, and Apple, with their reactions. Everyone who buys a new Mac after next Friday will be using this new OS whether they like it or not.

In the meantime, a handful of early-early adopters are going to download the thing illicitly. Are they going to provide feedback to Apple (any feedback -- forget useful feedback)? Only the big huge morons among them will. Are they going to share their experiences widely online? I suppose you can find it if you want, and no doubt Apple is going to monitor that. But it's going to be a drop in the bucket compared to the above-board feedback. A net benefit to Apple? I seriously doubt it. Apple, after all, will have to go digging for that feedback and will have to sort the wheat from the chaff in a stew of anonymous reports of unknown reliability.

The "buzz factor":

Some of you (I'm thinking especially of MacDoc) seem to think there's all this dubious Apple-generated buzz that needs to be balanced with non-Apple voices. Well, I see and hear plenty of buzz that's not emanating from Apple at all <i>and</i> that has nothing to do with unauthorized downloads. All those people who are going to line up outside the 100+ Apple Stores next Friday are just customers. Eager, fanatical customers--not Apple rent-a-crowds. As far as I know, nobody here is in Apple's employ; we're talking and generating buzz because we're excited by the product. 

In short, there's tons o' buzz without anyone needing to jump the gun and download the Tiger GM. The additional buzz/exposure provided is marginal at best.

On whether it's genuine: 

I'll ask again. How does anyone know for sure they're getting the real deal? Do you really know exactly what's supposed to be in that .dmg? Every last thing? Every version? Where's your proof that it's a true copy, and not one with subtle (but potentially damaging) changes? Have you checked all the Utilities to make sure there are no trojans? In this case, walking and talking like a duck are not enough. It needs to come with a stamp of authenticity from the duck farm, or IMO you're a much, much bigger fool than the people who will take the plunge on the very first release version. We're not talking about Doom 3 here, but the OS: the heart of your system. 

On "try-before-you buy":

I can sympathize with this justification above all others, but I still think you'd be better off waiting for user reports and investigating the features and benefits. Again, if you already have a working computer then it's a completely, 100% optional upgrade. If it's got something you truly need, you'll wind up buying it no matter what; if not, you're sampling the buffet before deciding whether to pony up for a plate. So it's a better excuse than most, but it's still not a completely convincing one.


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## kevs~just kevs (Mar 21, 2005)

*Settlement*

Interesting...

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/04/20/tigerleak/index.php


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

jicon said:


> lindmar said:
> 
> 
> > I understand what you guys are saying.. but its not a hacked beta...
> ...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

iMatt - you miss the point - the feedback is not TO Apple - the feedback is FOR potential users, especially pro as to cost/benefit of both the OS AND potential machine purchases.

The buzz of positive feedback IS of benefit to Apple and some of the noted breaks are of use to smaller developers like the Shiira project and CCC who make no income on their valuable offerings.

The more eyes the better and I suggest to you this thread has encouraged some that might not have jumped to buy.

It's a bit of a moot point anyway 



> Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) arriving in users' hands
> Several MacFixIt readers are reporting that they are receiving their pre-ordered copies of Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger), a full eight days ahead of schedule.
> 
> One reader writes:
> ...


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

MacDoc, even if I slightly misread you and it's about feedback to other users and not Apple, I stand by the general outlines of my argument: this advance feedback is a drop in the bucket compared to the professional reviews (and feedback from ordinary paying customers) that we'll be seeing starting in a week.

BTW, that's hilarious about the early shipping of pre-orders. Didn't the same thing happen with Panther and Jag as well? I wonder if it's an "accident" that happened with a nudge and a wink from Apple?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Professional reviews.........not often hands on enough......too much in Apple's pocket.
When someone you know doing the same kind of stuff you are gets excited .....THEN it hits home.
Viral marketing. 

One of the most active pirate boards a few years back was quite exclusive - hard to get on to and was invaluable for chit chat and under the hood pull no punches.
One active senior member was also an Apple board member.
You gotta know Apple history to understand the forces at work in the company and the community - larger and more embedded than you might think.
Open source has been a boon in the larger battle.

This is just a teeny tiny aspect of a larger approach to the free flow of information versus proprietary and it extends to many areas of society.....including your own stem cells.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Professional reviews.........not often hands on enough......too much in Apple's pocket.


The best reviews (the one from Ars Technica in particular) are highly critical of both OS X and Apple in general. If that's "in their pocket" I'd hate to hear what you have to say about magazines like MacWorld or MacAddict that give basically every release 5 out of 5.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Many users will only see the latter not the former.
They WILL hear from friends and advisers about hands on.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Maybe, but I'd argue that anyone with access to the internet is going to see a lot more balanced reviews than you'd think.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

*MacDoc - Wait How Long?*

Hi MacDoc
You're probably the best to answer this; How long will YOU wait to install Tiger on your primary work machine?
Original? 1.1? One month?

Must ... learn ... patience ... (clenching jaw)


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's already on it.
I've always run betas in real world ( with good backup ).

The only one I gave up on was original X which was just plain awful and I stuck with OS 9 then until Panther arrived.

Early X was relegated to the Office mac with sometimes less than wonderful results. Staff were all over early X so we had a pool of insight but I would not touch it.

That said my machine is a general use not a specific production station that many of our clients use.

But where I can I always test in real world on my own box and answer queries from clients on specific issues where I can.


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## dthompson101 (Jan 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> It's already on it.
> I've always run betas in real world ( with good backup ).


Sorry, but I don't agree with that. First off you are using software that you are not supposed to be using as its unfinished, and still in beta (out side of all the legalities there are behind what you are doing).

Secondly, you are telling customers about feature sets that may or may not make it into the final build as well certain features are turned off in certain builds in order for testers to test other features and focus on certain areas. You can give the customer the wrong idea of what the final build could be like and they might end up purchasing a new/used machine based on your input to them.

This brings up a very good point. In 10.3 there was supposed to be a feature called "Home away from home" in which 10.3 client synced up your home directory to an iPod in which you could take it to another mac and login with all your personal items there....This never made it into the final build and subsequently didn't make it into 10.3 at all.

Imagine if you have the couple of builds that had this feature enabled and were telling and showing customers all about it and they went out and purchased new hardware based on what you were telling them...But then the feature was nixed at the last minute, as this is exactly what happend. How many pissed off customers would you have who would want their money back becuase of your false recommendations?

There is a reason that Apple Seeders go through the heavy NDA disclosures that they sign. It's to make sure that **** like this doesn't happen, and that people don't get the wrong idea of "what might be coming" in the next OS.

Just becuase everyone out there wants to play with the software does not give them the legal right to steal it because they think they can. You legally don't own the software so legally Apple (and other companies) can come around and sue your ass off and you have no one to blame but yourselves!


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> It's already on it.
> I've always run betas in real world ( with good backup ).


How much do you spend on your ADC account every year?


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

*MacDoc and DavidT - 2 Tiger things...*



dthompson101 said:


> Sorry, but I don't agree with that. First off you are using software that you are not supposed to be using as its unfinished, and still in beta (out side of all the legalities there are behind what you are doing).


1. Thanks MacDoc, for the expert advice, especially since you've already seen Tiger! I'll order my Tiger copy tonight! WooHoo! Next, dual processor upgrades (right?).

2. DavidT, I'm not an expert, but I'll assume (Yeah, I know what "assume" can do) that MacDoc, because he's a reseller, gets the betas and the pre-releases legitimately. 
Also, David, I've read your well-thought-out postings on the piracy issue and I think you do make some very good points and quite sound arguments on this contentious issue.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Here ya go argue with them

http://www.macintouch.com/tiger02.html

Tell me something that isn't on the Apple site????

Where have you seen a discussion of Tiger prior to this week with my imput???


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Soymac said:


> I'll assume (Yeah, I know what "assume" can do) that MacDoc, because he's a reseller, gets the betas and the pre-releases legitimately.


Is he a developer? Because resellers don't get betas and pre-releases. The only way to get the beta builds legitimately, AFAIK, is to be a developer with a paid ADC account.


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

I was given beta copies of 9, 10.0 and 10.2 beta by people inside Apple who had the authority to, I am not an ADC member.

No reason MacDoc wasn't also,


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

*No More*



PosterBoy said:


> Is he a developer? Because resellers don't get betas and pre-releases. The only way to get the beta builds legitimately, AFAIK, is to be a developer with a paid ADC account.


Is he a developer? Well, I don't actually know what any of you are/do/belong to.  
But I do know that I am quite ignorant of retail in general, and the business side of computers specifically. So you will be relieved to know that I do hereby promise to keep my uninformed computer BUSINESS opinions to myself from now on.
(Sound of crowd cheering)

Back to my Macs...


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## dthompson101 (Jan 16, 2001)

> Is he a developer? Because resellers don't get betas and pre-releases. The only way to get the beta builds legitimately, AFAIK, is to be a developer with a paid ADC account.


FYI, I am not and ADC memeber at all. I am an Appleseeder.
http://appleseed.apple.com

I am one of the lucky ones who does not have to pay out an arm and a leg in order to get the builds. I was testing the betas before the whole ADC testing came out with Tiger.



> I was given beta copies of 9, 10.0 and 10.2 beta by people inside Apple who had the authority to, I am not an ADC member.


If they had the authority to do so, you would have also have had to sign NDA's in order to make sure everything was legit. I was one of the people to help with Macintosh Management developement a couple of years ago and there were NDA's that I had to sign in order to obtain the beta software.

This was around the time Apple was deciding to drop support for Macintosh Manager over AppleTalk and moving to a full TCP/IP implementation.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

*So much to learn!*



dthompson101 said:


> FYI, I am not and ADC memeber at all. I am an Appleseeder.
> http://appleseed.apple.com


Thanks, DavidT, for this link! Wow, there's so much I'm learning about development and how Apple produces such fantastic (to me) software. You Appleseeders have done a great job so far, thank you very much!
And EhMac rocks!


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

Three points...

1) I find it interesting how repulsive some people think it is to even think of pirating Apple's software. Yet, Apple was started by two "pirates" - Jobs and Woz not only built Blue Boxes - they even sold them! It would be somewhat ironic if Jobs thought something that was OK in the 70's is bad now!

2) To equate software piracy to stealing TV sets is silly at best. Software companies love to quote estimated numbers of pirate versions of their software and come up with huge numbers for estimated losses - but these are horribly inaccurate. A large percentage of these numbers did *not* result in a lost sale. Many people would have simply done without or found a different solution. Big numbers make people emotional however...

3) Activation and serial number style protection does little to stop the average pirate. Not sure what the ulitmate solution is, but these only stop mom and pop pirates...


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

RobTheGob said:


> To equate software piracy to stealing TV sets is silly at best.


Why? Which one isn't stealing?


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

PosterBoy said:


> Why? Which one isn't stealing?


If a person could take your TV and you still got to keep it - then your analogy would be a little closer. All you have to do is come up with a TV duplicator...

Counterfeiting would be closer than theft...


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Ok, here's a better question:

How does pirating a copy of Mac OS X not equal loos of revenue for Apple and Apple's resellers?

I'd agree that equating stealing a TV to pirating software is a bit of a stretch, but not because one isn't stealing, but because most people steal TVs from other people, not from the manufacturer or the reseller.

And even if pirating software is closer to counterfeiting, which I believe that it is, how does that make it any less wrong?


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

PosterBoy said:


> Ok, here's a better question:
> 
> How does pirating a copy of Mac OS X not equal loos of revenue for Apple and Apple's resellers?
> 
> ...


My point is that in *many* cases - there was no loss in revenue for the manufacturer. Do you really believe that every person that copied Office or Photoshop would have bought it if they hadn't copied it? I don't. I think in these examples it's quite a small percentage that would have actually purchased the software.

I think that it's silly comparing piracy to stealing a TV since the original owner never losses the use of his "stolen" item. Perhaps comparing it to the decrypting of satellite signals without paying would be fairly accurate. Again, there is no guarantee that people watching would have bought it if they couldn't pirate...


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