# Hah. Difference between Android and iPhone OS



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Saw this today and I thought it was hilarious (even though I don't think iPhoneOS needs flash...)


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

speaking of flash, I was at day one of a major conference and saw first hand the new generation flash player running like butter on all other smartphones. Adobe's kickin butt in that regard which is nice to see.

Perhaps mr. Jobs wil actually have to be honest as to the real reasons flash isn't on, but I won't hold my breath.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Apple hasn't been dishonest although they have changed their focus - their main reason is that they want to differentiate the iPhone from the competition and to do this they are requiring devs use their tools which are available to any iPhone OS developer. This doesn't preclude porting iPhone apps to other systems but it does complicate the reverse. Since there are more apps on iPhone (at present), this will slow migration as well as ensure that devs are more likely to use the full hardware potential of the iPhone as well as the full OS potential of iPhone OS. People may disagree with this approach, but they are not owed a living by Apple.

I don't actually see any disadvantage in not having Flash on my iPhone since I block it on my Mac in any case. Yes it requires web developers to either ignore iPhone OS users or to recode using non-Flash. Again, no one is forcing their decision. I'd expect that the only way Apple will give in and allow deployment of Flash on an iPhone/iPad is if the ecosystem begins to significantly shrink due to its presence on other platforms. In the meantime, the iPhone/iPad ecosystem is drawing the attention of non-Flash media. At some point having Flash or not will be moot. Much like using iPhone OS Mail vs using Android Mail.

Adobe's public response to Apple's refusal to allow non-Objective C code has been embarrassing for such an accomplished company. Actions speak louder than words.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

and how did you expect them to react? APple basically, sucker punched them, and that's how every developer I've spoken to sees it as. Because, it was. So of course, Adobe would react strongly.

The thing you seem to missing here, is user choice. Now I know you, and a some other posters say they dislike flash enough to block it. It's a personal choice. However, for every person who says they block flash, I've heard 5 tell me they wish iphones would show at least some flash content, or in the least, -give the choice-. Apple has decided not to give the choice. And that's what it's about.

Choice. However, another thing the flash haters can't seem to fathom, or likely aren't thinking things through clearly, is that when they brag how HTML5 is gonna replace flash and life is gonna be grand, are you gonna block HTML5 when all the annoying crap gets recoded into HTML5?

Because in general, most of the annoying things in flash, like banners, ads and crap, are likely the very things that HTML5 can very well replace.

As a developer in all those platforms, I'll say, uh.... -be careful what you wish for-.

LOL.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

first off... LOL at the Justice League pic with Flash missing.

Secondly, re-reading the Adobe announcement....Adobe only says that they're going to stop developing the software to port and compile flash stuff into iphone apps....but they don't specifically say that they're going to stop all work on bringing a flash PLAYER for the iphone platform... do they?

THe way i see it, Apple is happy to hear the first bit, but would be foolish to dismiss the second.

In an ideal world the iphone/ipad would be able to see flash stuff with a 'click to flash' type of plugin, so users could selectively choose what they want to view without a constant performance hit.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

good idea.

though what I witnessed today, was super performance, awesome battery life, and it's in beta now.

In any case, I'l still be employed well regardless.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

That's friggin' hysterical. Love it. :clap:


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

To tell you the truth, I didn't even notice Flash was missing until just now when I looked at the picture again (about three hours later). What does that say about me? 

P.S. I still like the joke!


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## kkritsilas (Mar 1, 2010)

groovetube said:


> .....
> The thing you seem to missing here, is user choice. Now I know you, and a some other posters say they dislike flash enough to block it. It's a personal choice. However, for every person who says they block flash, I've heard 5 tell me they wish iphones would show at least some flash content, or in the least, -give the choice-. Apple has decided not to give the choice. And that's what it's about.
> ......


Users have all the choice in the world. They can choose to use an iPhone, or they can choose to use something else. If they choose to use an iPhone, it has been stated up front, and on no uncertain terms, that there will NOT be a Flash Player on the iPhone, and it is as simple as that. Apple has not tried to pretend that they currently have, or will ever have, a Flash Player on the iPhone. Adobe can develop what they want; they can put it on any mobile platform that they want, they will NOT get it on the iPhone. If it is an absolute requirement that a smartphone have Flash, get something else. 50 Million or so iPhone customers have chosen the iPhone (across all generations of devices), and iPhone sales are on the increase. HMTL5 is the technical direction Apple, for better or worse, has chosen to go. Any web sites that are heavily Flash based, will be unaccessable to iPhone users. That means that those sites have just potentially lost 50 Million viewrs/customers, and that amount will only increase.

As an example:

I am a big baseball fan, and my favourite team is the St. Louis Cardinals. When you go to their official MLB site, with a desktop computer, you can see a highlight video in the top right corner, preceeded by some advertising video ( to be honest, its a little bit annoying, but its straying from the point). On the iPhone, that advertising video cannot be seen, because it is in Flash, and neither can the game video. However, if the MLB App, At Bat 2010, is fired up, the game video is completely viewable. From this I make a couple of points:

1. The game video is available in both Flash and non-Flash form. The non-Flash form would be viewable on both desktop and iPhone.

2. If I were an advertiser paying to have video ads on the official MLB site, I would be highly pissed off that my ads could not be seen by iPhone users; I would see it as reduced value for the advertising costs I am paying, and would be looking to find a format usable on both desktops and iPhones.

As the installed base of iPhones continues to increase, and seems to increase at a faster and faster rate, the second point will increase in significance.

Kostas


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Oh boy! Yet another iPhone/flash discussion


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

kkritsilas said:


> Users have all the choice in the world. They can choose to use an iPhone, or they can choose to use something else. If they choose to use an iPhone, it has been stated up front, and on no uncertain terms, that there will NOT be a Flash Player on the iPhone, and it is as simple as that. Apple has not tried to pretend that they currently have, or will ever have, a Flash Player on the iPhone. Adobe can develop what they want; they can put it on any mobile platform that they want, they will NOT get it on the iPhone. If it is an absolute requirement that a smartphone have Flash, get something else. 50 Million or so iPhone customers have chosen the iPhone (across all generations of devices), and iPhone sales are on the increase. HMTL5 is the technical direction Apple, for better or worse, has chosen to go. Any web sites that are heavily Flash based, will be unaccessable to iPhone users. That means that those sites have just potentially lost 50 Million viewrs/customers, and that amount will only increase.
> 
> As an example:
> 
> ...


and how is -that- choice? I have macs, and appleTv, the logical choice since I like macs and have mobileMe is to get an iPhone, and it's choice that I have to change my whole platform because someone thinks I shouldn't be allowed to have flash?

And that's choice?

Lay off the kool aid pal.

And as a kool aid drinker, perhaps you can drink in the fact that advertisers can also look at the fact that 75% of the smartphone users, will have flash very soon...

also look at the chart manny posted and see how insignificant the iphone actually is in context currently.


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## kkritsilas (Mar 1, 2010)

If you are not being limited to buiying only one thing, you automatically have a choice. In your case, your choice was to buy an iPhone, knowing full well that it didn't support Flash when you bought it, and if you are as aware as you seem to present yourself being, knew that Apple wouldn't be supporting Flash. Apple has never said they would. The fact that you have Macs, AppleTV amd MobileMe doesn't prevent you from buying any other phone other than the iPhone, you chose to do so because you enjoy the multiple platforms that Apple puts out. Are you trying to say that there are no Mac, or Mac and Apple TV owners, who have ever bought an Android phone, or a Palm Pre, or a Blackberry? They made their choice, you made yours. Your choice of the iPhone came with some limitations, one of which is that Flash will not be supported. Its like buying an AppleTV and complaining that it doesn't have a Blue Ray optical drive. If you wanted a cell phone with a really great camera on board, you should have bought a cell phone with a 5MP or 8MP camera and strobe flash; don't buy an iPhone. If Flash is an overriding consideration for you, you should buy an alternative to the iPhone that supports it. If you choose to buy an iPhone, stop moaning and complaining about something you knew about when you bought the iPhone.

The only Kool Aid that seems to be drunk around here, and around the Internet is that the geeks complaining over and over will somehow force Apple to allow a Flash player. IT ISN"T GOING TO HAPPEN. Should it? YES. Will it? NO.

No matter what the market share is now, or going forward, reality is that sites or ads can be coded to be usable for the iPhone and desktop computers, as well as other cell phones, or they can be coded to eliminate 50 Million current customers (as of right now) and many times that going forward. As an advertiser, you can turn your back on those customers (most of which are fairly well off, by the way, as the iPhone isn't that cheap, nor are the monthly voice/data plans). Its your adverising dollars, spend it as you see fit.

As time goes on, and as technologies like HSDPA+/LTE make the mobile web browsing experience more like a desktop experience, there will be an increase in mobile data traffic (not to mention things like iPad 3Gs and successors as well as copycat products) relative to to desktop traffic. All of the current manufacturers know this, and this is why the rush to get into cellphone and copy the iPad.

Kostas


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Nicely put, Kostas. It's like buying a pail of vanilla ice cream and complaining that it doesn't have any chocolate chips. :-(


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Disclaimer Groovetube should be putting in his messages:

He is a professional Flash developer. He has a strong FINANCIAL stake in this that colours his opinion.

Speaking of kool-aid, what flavour were they serving at that Adobe conference? 

PS. I am very pleased to hear that the threat of MARKET LEADER Apple has gotten Adobe to finally give Flash the technical attention and efficiency it has needed for about a decade now. This is A Good Thing!


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

+1 to what chas_m says about Adobe reacting to the Apple threat being the good coming out of this.

Let's face it - if Flash hasn't/hadn't been such a DOG on mobile hardware (and OSX for that matter) Apple may have let it on the iPhone in the first place (who knows).

And up until the latest mobile BETA software - which isn't going to see wide-release until the fall at the earliest - Adobe has continued to let Flash be a DOG on Mobile hardware, as HTML5 and H264, etc... supplanted it in the mobile space.

It's great that Adobe is finally playing catchup. And if the new Flash for Mobile is actually amazing, like groovetube says than the pressure will only be on Apple to get flash on the iPhone OS, ASAP. And with Android's marketshare rising (and Flash going to Android), you can bet Apple's watching to see what happens so they can react accordingly (whether than means getting Flash support, who knows... but I doubt anyone (Besides 'el Jobso) can say for sure).


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

chas_m said:


> Disclaimer Groovetube should be putting in his messages:
> 
> He is a professional Flash developer. He has a strong FINANCIAL stake in this that colours his opinion.
> 
> ...


Chas-m, you, are a liar. You need to get your storey straight before you say untrue things about someone personally in public like that.

I have no financial stake in flash, and my company would function just fine should flash disappear. flash is but one technology used in my company, we use many.

Perhaps you'd like to edit your post with true information about me and my company thank you.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

fyrefly said:


> +1 to what chas_m says about Adobe reacting to the Apple threat being the good coming out of this.
> 
> Let's face it - if Flash hasn't/hadn't been such a DOG on mobile hardware (and OSX for that matter) Apple may have let it on the iPhone in the first place (who knows).
> 
> ...


html5, as a spec, isn't even part way released until 2012. So, how has it "supplanted flash" really? And H.264, once again, has been supported by flash a loooong time ago. It as been proven now, that flash plays it as well as HTML5, and in some cases, better.

I don't really know, how many times it needs to be repeated. No one, not myself, other developers, nor adobe, who is contributing to the html5 thing as everyone else, sees html5 as any threat, or replacement to flash. they will both continue to coexist, and coexist very well, as complementary technologies. And technologies that are advancing at a very rapid rate. 

I think people get very confused, particularly those who know nothing really of the technologies, about reasons for using technologies. I've heard the usual, well html5 can do that, well, so what? Developers and companies, will use technologies that not only make sense, but have a great workflow, and have the ability to target a large group at once. certainly, html5 will make sense a lot of the time, however despite the blog readers creams, html5 cannot do a lot of what flash can do, so many requirement will warrant the use, and after what I saw this weekend, a new, great workflow will make that case even stronger.

Iyt just gets tiring listening to the same kool aid drinkers spout the same crap from blogs and the usual smug crap I have hated about apple users back in the day. 

on another topic, I saw a really interesting presentation today at the conference, that apparently was all adobe, but this wasn't... adobe...  about this: oblong industries, inc.

Interesting perspective on apple's "eco system", and it's major shortcomings. I hope I could find a video bit because this presenter probably said it better than I can explain.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Man, you really get emotional about Flash. Maybe that's why it's assumed that you have a financial stake in it? Either way, us bickering about Flash on the iPhone/iPad isn't gonna do either of us very much good - the pic I posted to start this thread was meant as a joke to cool things down and now it's heated things up again. Not my intention.

Of course HTML5 and Flash will co-exist. They do now. Silverlight co-exists too. Flash isn't going anywhere - but as a MBA, iPhone and iPad owner I've come to dislike flash-based everything's 'cause I can't really use them. Apple's problem yes - but Adobe's problem too 'cause as a consumer I'm blaming flash, not Apple for being a dog. Am I correct to blame Adobe? Probably not (or at least not entirely), but I bet my opinion is not alone, and that's not doing Adobe any favours.



groovetube said:


> html5, as a spec, isn't even part way released until 2012. So, how has it "supplanted flash" really? And H.264, once again, has been supported by flash a loooong time ago. It as been proven now, that flash plays it as well as HTML5, and in some cases, better.


HTML5/H264 or a combo of the two has become more and more prevalent (usually in combo with Flash) precisely because of Apple's stance, IMHO. Some examples:

YouTube: YouTube Blog: Introducing YouTube HTML5 Supported Videos

Vimeo: Try our new HTML5 player! on Vimeo Staff Blog

And the ever-growing list Apple's maintaining here to suit it's own (seemingly anti-flash) ends:

Apple - iPad-ready websites

Even Facebook has started testing H264 Video (wrongly reported as HTML5 video a lot today) so that a growing cacophony of iPad/iPhone users who Apple denies the right to use flash can still watch videos of their friends cats/babies/drunk friends:

Facebook Testing HTML5 Video for iPad? Apparently Not [UPDATED]

And you're 100% correct when you say Flash does lots besides video (and can do it well - but even things like Flash-Based games (like FarmVille) are being ported to the iPhone/iPad as a native app to get around the No-Flash limitation.

Look, ultimately I agree with you that it's crap that Apple's not playing ball with Adobe. But Apple doesn't seem to be suffering because of it, so I'm assuming the notoriously stubborn El Jobso's not gonna cave while his sales continue unabated.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Perhaps you'd like to edit your post with true information about me and my company thank you.


No thanks, I think it stands as accurate.

Whether "your company would do just fine if Flash disappeared" isn't really relevant. You do Flash development NOW, and you have a financial stake in Flash's success NOW.

Since this is true, it doesn't need amending.

But your posts on this topic seriously need a disclaimer that acknowledges that you make money off Flash development.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

chas_m said:


> No thanks, I think it stands as accurate.
> 
> Whether "your company would do just fine if Flash disappeared" isn't really relevant. You do Flash development NOW, and you have a financial stake in Flash's success NOW.
> 
> ...


Listen, what you said, was simply untrue.

You said I had a financial stake in flash, and I do not. I am a web developer who uses many different technologies to create solutions, and I don't appreciate jerks mouthing off about my company in public. You have given the impression that I have some kind of financial interest in flash and would push it on clients whether it's useful or not.

So you will retract that, here, and now.

I have a personal like for flash, not the development, but flash presentations in general. And not because I have invoices that involve some flash development. What my company does, and the decisions it makes for my clients are not based my like for flash. It's based on what tool is best for the project, and that often, does NOT include flash at all.

So your implied disclaimer for me and my company is bordering on slanderous and incorrect.

My arguments, with facts and opinions, stand without the need to get personal to that sort of level.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Listen, what you said, was simply untrue.


How so? You write flash code, and presumably get paid to do so. You have said so numerous times. That's a financial interest in Flash. All Flash developers have a financial interest in Flash.

I never said it was the only thing you do. But it IS something you do, and thus have invested in. Therefore you have a financial stake in its success.



> I am a web developer who uses many different technologies to create solutions


And here you are AGAIN admitting you do Flash development and have a vested interest in Flash.



> and would push it on clients whether it's useful or not.


Really? Where did I say that?

Quote please, or an apology.



> So you will retract that, here, and now.


Uh, no.



> It's based on what tool is best for the project, and that often, does NOT include flash at all.


Which is fine. I never said or even implied otherwise. All I said was that when you are discussing the merits of Flash, you should (in the interest of disclosure) acknowledge that you are a Flash developer.



> So your implied disclaimer for me and my company is bordering on slanderous


Well you certainly have the option of testing that if you like. You're wrong, of course, but I don't mind you wasting your money on the option.



> My arguments, with facts and opinions, stand without the need to get personal to that sort of level.


Calling you a Flash developer who writes Flash code and thus makes money doing so is getting "personal"?

As our Spocks here would say, "fascinating."

Methinks thou doth protest too much.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

chas_m said:


> How so? You write flash code, and presumably get paid to do so. You have said so numerous times. That's a financial interest in Flash. All Flash developers have a financial interest in Flash.
> 
> I never said it was the only thing you do. But it IS something you do, and thus have invested in. Therefore you have a financial stake in its success.
> 
> ...


Because, I'm NOT, a just flash developer. I am a web developer, who uses multiple languages. There is a very large difference, and I don't appreciate someone in public, making accusations that I have a financial interest in pushing a technology on clients. I don't, and it's untrue to say so.

If you can't carry a conversation about something based on facts and opinions without slamming someones professional life, you, are a jerk.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

fyrefly said:


> Man, you really get emotional about Flash. Maybe that's why it's assumed that you have a financial stake in it? Either way, us bickering about Flash on the iPhone/iPad isn't gonna do either of us very much good - the pic I posted to start this thread was meant as a joke to cool things down and now it's heated things up again. Not my intention.
> 
> Of course HTML5 and Flash will co-exist. They do now. Silverlight co-exists too. Flash isn't going anywhere - but as a MBA, iPhone and iPad owner I've come to dislike flash-based everything's 'cause I can't really use them. Apple's problem yes - but Adobe's problem too 'cause as a consumer I'm blaming flash, not Apple for being a dog. Am I correct to blame Adobe? Probably not (or at least not entirely), but I bet my opinion is not alone, and that's not doing Adobe any favours.
> 
> ...


no it isn't emotional about flash. It's just gets tiring to constantly face nonsense and myth after myth from certain users who don't seem to get it. Now apparently, one wants to place a disclaimer that not only isn't true, but implies something about what I do that isn't rue either. What some will stoop to, to be right...

The link you gave ( Facebook Testing HTML5 Video for iPad? Apparently Not [UPDATED] ) , also goes on to say what many of us are noticing, that the html5 implementation is very surface level on -some sites-, and doesn't go very deep to give ipad users the full website. And many sites -already- used H.264 since flash began supporting it a long time ago, so, Adobe actually made it very simple to serve the H.264 in a different player (probably unwittingly I don't know) . I think it's going to take a lot of time, you're asking for quite an expensive retooling, for, basically one device in the scheme of things. Steve Jobs is asking an awful lot of major companies, and the sense I get from many developers is, apple is a bit of a moving target, and has a history of changing platforms midstep. Now this ability I think has worked for Apple historically, because their user base was relatively small and rather devoted, but I think things are beginning to change now that marketshare is getting much larger, and making drastic sudden moves to improve the platform, will begin knocking users into the cold, and creating more ill will. This will only worsen as apple will most certainly continue to grow.

Certainly, microsoft is an excellent example of a company bogged down by a massive marketshare that required backwards compatibility...

***Regarding emotion and flash. Since the language I tend to use the most these days is PHP and mySQL, I think I'd be even more ticked if A major company basically defined it as end of the line and no longer valuable.

Then, you would see some real sparks from me!


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

chas_m said:


> Disclaimer Groovetube should be putting in his messages:
> 
> He is a professional Flash developer. He has a strong FINANCIAL stake in this that colours his opinion.
> 
> ...


Chas, your comment is out of line, inappropriate and should be retracted. 

Just because somebody works with something in their day to day lives in their employment, does not mean they should have to make a disclaimer every time they comment on the subject. I'm sure Groovetube works on Macs all the time and therefore inadvertently makes money with them, so every time he comments on Apple, he should give a disclaimer too?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Because, I'm NOT, a just flash developer. I am a web developer, who uses multiple languages. There is a very large difference, and I don't appreciate someone in public, making accusations that I have a financial interest in pushing a technology on clients. I don't, and it's untrue to say so.
> 
> *If you can't carry a conversation about something based on facts and opinions without slamming someones professional life, you, are a jerk*.


I know I'm going to regret this but... you have done the same to other's my self for one. It doesn't feel so nice when the shoe is on the other foot... it isn't so great when people make assumptions about what you do or don't do or how well you do it, is it?


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

screature said:


> I know I'm going to regret this but... you have done the same to other's my self for one. It doesn't feel so nice when the shoe is on the other foot... it isn't so great when people make assumptions about what you do or don't do or how well you do it, is it?


you have financial stake in Tomatoes!


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

ehMax said:


> Chas, your comment is out of line, *inappropriate and should be retracted. *
> 
> Just because somebody works with something in their day to day lives in their employment, does not mean they should have to make a disclaimer every time they comment on the subject. I'm sure Groovetube works on Macs all the time and therefore inadvertently makes money with them, so every time he comments on Apple, he should give a disclaimer too?


Give me a break... you, the mayor are getting involved because chas_m says gt should put a up a disclaimer? This is simply a point of debate between these two.

How many direct insults has gt and many other posters given to people without an intervention on your part? Come on.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

jawknee said:


> you have financial stake in Tomatoes!


I wish!


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> I know I'm going to regret this but... you have done the same to other's my self for one. It doesn't feel so nice when the shoe is on the other foot... it isn't so great when people make assumptions about what you do or don't do or how well you do it, is it?


no I haven't screature. I have not gone after someone's professional reputation. That's where I draw the line, and if I overstep that, I'd expect to be notified of it.

That's quite a bit different than debating someone's opinion. Go after my opinion all you like with facts and your own opinion. But don't stoop to saying untrue things and slamming my professional work.

I think you need to see the difference.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

groovetube said:


> no I haven't screature. I have not gone after someone's professional reputation. That's where I draw the line, and if I overstep that, I'd expect to be notified of it.
> 
> That's quite a bit different than debating someone's opinion. Go after my opinion all you like with facts and your own opinion. But don't stoop to saying untrue things and slamming my professional work.
> 
> I think you need to see the difference.


chas_m has financial stake in acdsee pro. *tsktsktsk*


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> no I haven't screature. I have not gone after someone's professional reputation. That's where I draw the line, and if I overstep that, I'd expect to be notified of it.
> 
> That's quite a bit different than debating someone's opinion. Go after my opinion all you like with facts and your own opinion. But don't stoop to saying untrue things and slamming my professional work.
> 
> I think you need to see the difference.


We can agree on the principle, but I would have to disagree on whether or not you have stepped over that line. 

Certainly in regard to some of your past postings regarding my professional work at Parliament it is my feeling that you belittled it/me without any knowledge of what I do, I could go back and pull up quotes but I would rather not escalate the matter. Let's just say we will have to agree to disagree on that particular point. At any rate it is water under the bridge until such time or if another occasion arises. Peace out.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

jawknee said:


> chas_m has financial stake in acdsee pro. *tsktsktsk*


Yes, but to be fair he does always provides a full disclaimer in that regard when he advocates for it.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

screature said:


> Yes, but to be fair he does always provides a full disclaimer in that regard when he advocates for it.


I like turtles


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> We can agree on the principle, but I would have to disagree on whether or not you have stepped over that line.
> 
> Certainly in regard to some of your past postings regarding my professional work at Parliament it is my feeling that you belittled it/me without any knowledge of what I do, I could go back and pull up quotes but I would rather not escalate the matter. Let's just say we will have to agree to disagree on that particular point. At any rate it is water under the bridge until such time or if another occasion arises. Peace out.


well if I did, or ever do, I would certainly respect being told I went past a line. I try to keep it to the face value of opinions or facts posted of the poster, not their company or professional reputation.

Let's see, what should my disclaimer read. advocate of, PHP, mySQL, wordpress, joomla, adobe, apple, os x, open source eclipse, flash, FDT, javascript, css, jquery, xcart, OScommerce, 

These are all tools and languages I use almost daily, or certainly quite often. Not sure if I missed any.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

jawknee said:


> I like turtles


Do you raise or sell them? If so, you know the drill...


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

screature said:


> Give me a break... you, the mayor are getting involved because chas_m says gt should put a up a disclaimer? This is simply a point of debate between these two.
> 
> How many direct insults has gt and many other posters given to people without an intervention on your part? Come on.


I got involved because I was alerted to this thread. To me, it was more than just asking to put up a disclaimer, it was making a false statement that GT had a direct financial stake in Flash's success.

I have not been alerted recently to any post where GT has insulted someone, nor have I come across any on my own browsing. If I do notice anything that crosses the line, I try to give the same moderation. 

Moderation is kind of like speeding tickets. You only get one if the police catch you. Lots of people speed and don't get caught, but overall... people aren't driving 50 clicks over the speed limit.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> well if I did, or ever do, I would certainly respect being told I went past a line. I try to keep it to the face value of opinions or facts posted of the poster, not their company or professional reputation.
> 
> Let's see, what should my disclaimer read. advocate of, PHP, mySQL, wordpress, joomla, adobe, apple, os x, open source eclipse, flash, FDT, javascript, css, jquery, xcart, OScommerce,
> 
> These are all tools and languages I use almost daily, or certainly quite often. Not sure if I missed any.


IMHO you don't need to post a disclaimer for using and promoting Flash even though you make money from using it. However, I do think it is a matter of debate between you and chas_m, a little skirmish if you will... no need for it to go beyond that. I mean in a way you do provide a disclaimer of sorts in your "About me" section of your profile here where you say you are a Flash developer.

Edit: I see you have changed it to web developer, at any rate you used to say Flash developer.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I changed that because it is no longer accurate. I put that up in 2003, when I did do quite a bit of flash development. Now, truthfully, I do far more php backend joomla/wordpress ecom stuff than I do flash now.

I forgot all about that til now.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

ehMax said:


> I got involved because I was alerted to this thread. To me, it was more than just asking to put up a disclaimer, it was making a false statement that GT had a direct financial stake in Flash's success.
> 
> I have not been alerted recently to any post where GT has insulted someone, nor have I come across any on my own browsing. If I do notice anything that crosses the line, I try to give the same moderation.
> 
> Moderation is kind of like speeding tickets. You only get one if the police catch you. Lots of people speed and don't get caught, but overall... people aren't driving 50 clicks over the speed limit.


Fair enough.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2010)

Well the picture was funny. The other 3.5 pages of posts I could have done without.


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## ScanMan (Sep 11, 2007)

Who's the guy on the far right?


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Martian Manhunter


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## ScanMan (Sep 11, 2007)

I've got to read more.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Because, I'm NOT, a just flash developer.


I never said you were JUST a Flash developer. But you ARE a Flash developer (among other things), and you WERE reporting to us most recently on your experiences at a FLASH DEVELOPER'S CONFERENCE.

Hello, you're a Flash developer. You probably have lots of other roles in your life, and bravo, but the only part that's on-topic in a discussion on Flash is your financial stake in it. Knowing that is an important part of judging the objectivity of your statements on Flash.



> I am a web developer, who uses multiple languages.


I've never said otherwise. I'm sure, in fact, that you're a very talented, versatile and sought-after coder. None of that is germane to my point, which is simply that your views on Flash are coloured by your professional involvement with it (and that you should disclose that fact when advocating for Flash in discussions).



> There is a very large difference, and I don't appreciate someone in public, making accusations that I have a financial interest in pushing a technology on clients.


Good thing I never said that, then. All I've ever said is:

a) you have a financial interest in Flash, since you do in fact make at least some of your money doing Flash development, and have invested time, resources and money in your Flash training.

b) Because you don't disclose this when discussing Flash, you are presenting your views as objective when they aren't.



> If you can't carry a conversation about something based on facts and opinions without slamming someones professional life, you, are a jerk.


If you can't understand plain English posts that can be easily back-referenced to see that what you are accusing me of simply doesn't exist, and must resort to name calling and threats instead of acknowledging the points I've legitimately raised, I appear to have made my point -- that your view on Flash is coloured by your involvement with it -- with your assistance. Your extreme sensitivity on the topic only makes this more obvious.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

jawknee said:


> chas_m has financial stake in acdsee pro. *tsktsktsk*


Yes I do. And there's a disclaimer to that effect in my signature, ie on EVERY SINGLE POST I make on any topic.

And I repeat that disclaimer in the BODY of the post when I am specifically discussing ACDSee Pro for Mac.

But I'm not suggesting and have never suggested that Groovetube do the same. But IMO he *should* mention his role as a Flash developer when ADVOCATING for Flash in a discussion thread ABOUT Flash. That's all I'm saying.

I feel I've made my point (with a lot of help from GT himself) so this is my last post in this particular thread.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

chas_m said:


> I never said you were JUST a Flash developer. But you ARE a Flash developer (among other things), and you WERE reporting to us most recently on your experiences at a FLASH DEVELOPER'S CONFERENCE.
> 
> Hello, you're a Flash developer. You probably have lots of other roles in your life, and bravo, but the only part that's on-topic in a discussion on Flash is your financial stake in it. Knowing that is an important part of judging the objectivity of your statements on Flash.
> 
> ...


No. I don't have a financial interest in flash. Nor, do I have a financial interest, in Dell, who makes my monitor that I produce work on daily, no financial interest in apple, even though I own 6 macs for production (and use some apple software for production), I could go on and on. I have an iphone, I ama developer and have the SDK on my computer? What of that? DOes this somehow cancel out the others?

And what about the open source applications I use to create items I charge for? Do I have a financial "stake" in that too?

This is ludicrous, and all you're doing is trying to swipe me with anything you got because you can't have an intelligent conversation otherwise.

No, you are totally incorrect, and stepped over the line by saying publicly that I have a financial stake in flash. I do not, nor will I ever. My clients come to me, because I have a pretty solid reputation, for suggesting, and using the right technology for their project, and I will defend myself and my reputation from loudmouthed lying anonymous posters like yourself who feel they can publicly screech that I somehow have a financial stake in a technology and benefit from pushing it on others, and my clients.

I do not, have a financial stake, in flash, whatsoever. My company's bottom line, would be unaffected, by flash's demise should it happen.


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## kkritsilas (Mar 1, 2010)

A couple of interesting volleys in this tennis match:

First, Jobs spells out Apple's position:

"Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content" - Steve Jobs | 9 to 5 Mac

Then Adobe's CEO responds:

Highlights: The Journal’s Exclusive Interview With Adobe CEO - Digits - WSJ

and the pissing contest continues.

Some points, as I see them:

1. Flash is NOT an open standard. It is Adobe's proprietary standard, and has not been submitted to any standards body, as far as I know.

2. As I wrote previously, Jobs has flat out said that there will NOT be a Flash Player for the iPhone. If you watch the video on Engadget that shows the WSJ Digits broadcast, it pretty clearly points out that this is not a negotiable point. It is a statement of fact.

Adobe has released Flash Gala, and it does use the new Video Decode Acceleration Framework API that Apple released a few days ago. This works on the 9400M, GT320M, and GT330M. It does reduce CPU load by quite a bit, but its effect seems to vary some with the CPU. On Macworld (New Flash Player beta adds video acceleration for some Macs | Browsers & Add-Ons | MacUser | Macworld) shows some mixed results with different CPUs and GPUs, at times the decrease in CPU utilization being significant, at others, not so noticeable. This obviously still needs work, but keep in mind this is a beta. I also think that Apple will expand the GPUs that are able to use the Video Decode Acceleration Framework API going forward, probably officially adding in the 9600M, and possibly the 8600M (9600M and 8600M are pretty much the same IC, with just a die shrink as the difference), as well as some of the newer ATI chips (48XX and 5XXX series).

There may be problems going forward in Android land as well. See: 

Are Phone Manufacturers ''Abandoning'' Android? 

Kostas


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

kkritsilas said:


> 2. As I wrote previously, Jobs has flat out said that there will NOT be a Flash Player for the iPhone. If you watch the video on Engadget that shows the WSJ Digits broadcast, it pretty clearly points out that this is not a negotiable point. It is a statement of fact.


i'm not sure i buy that as something that's absolute and forever. even in his open letter Jobs writes :

"In addition, Flash has not performed well on mobile devices. We have routinely asked Adobe to show us Flash performing well on a mobile device, any mobile device, for a few years now. We have never seen it."

That sounds to me like in the past they were open to the idea if adobe could show them flash running well on a mobile phone. My hope is that if the new flash mobile player is all that adobe claims it is, we could hopefully see it implemented on the iphone.

I agree that flash as an iphone development tool is pretty much dead.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

When hell freezes over eh. Look at that! There's an intel chip in my mac!

Business is business. The trick is to get people whipped up about the issues, which funny enough can suddenly be a non issue in a heart beat, and many of the "faithful", will parrot it all as fact. They won't even research things, as evidenced by some here.

But if it suited Steve, hell would freeze over in a nanosecond.


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## kkritsilas (Mar 1, 2010)

It seems that Microsoft is on the HTML5 bandwagon, as well. See: IEBlog : HTML5 Video

My only question is: What about Silverlight? This was supposed to be Microsoft's homegrown alternative to Flash.

i-rui:

I think the key point is in the last sentence of the Jobs posting. To quote directly out of that posting:

"Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind."

I read that as being that Flash is part of the past, and is being left behind. From that I believe that there will not ever be Flash for Apple portable devices. Either way, the window of opportunity for Adobe is closing fast. They need to get a workable mobile Flash player that doesn't hog CPU power, is secure, and doesn't severely impact battery life. If they don't get that done within the next few quarters, HTML5 will continue on the path to standardization, and the availability and deployment of the VP8 codec recently released by Google into the public domain will begin to eliminate some of advantages that Flash has always had in video.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

wow. Next they'll be reporting that everyone is going from html4 to html5. Wonders will never cease.


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