# RIM - You're such a joke now



## Joker Eh

RIM, 

How can you create a device called the Playbook and yet it has no email client?

What were you thinking? Isn't that what you do? It should have been the first feature built in.

Another large Canadian company slowly going down the drain.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac

Heard that in the news last night and didn't believe it. How on earth did someone give this the green light. Why not put a browser or an on switch on it.


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## Rps

Not sure I agree with your analysis here. I think that the Playbook crowd is different from the iPad crowd. First, the use of an iPad without wi-fi requires a data plan [ 3g version ] so, yes you can get email with an iPad, however it is not an encrypted email, for which the Blackberry is famous for. Blackberry sells phone, so doesn't it seem logical to tether your Playbook to your phone and use the data service you are already paying for. I know most business users who have Blackberry's will probably purchase the Playbook ... and probably solely due to the security features.

Time will tell, but I think we are looking a device targeted for a specific market here, and that that is consonant with it's major product line.


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## MannyP Design

You'd think they'd be twice as efficient with 2 CEOs.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac

Rps said:


> Blackberry sells phone, so doesn't it seem logical to tether your Playbook to your phone and use the data service you are already paying for.


No it doesn't. You are implying that the Playbook be sold as a peripheral of the bb. This is what you are saying; if you want to email, look at your calendar, contacts buy a bb, pay for a data plan and buy a tablet to use as a monitor with it's on on-board processing for your bb.

Email, calendar, address book are used by anyone and everyone with a computer. This is a tablet computer and needs this ability.


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## Joker Eh

Rps said:


> Not sure I agree with your analysis here. I think that the Playbook crowd is different from the iPad crowd. First, the use of an iPad without wi-fi requires a data plan [ 3g version ] so, yes you can get email with an iPad, however it is not an encrypted email, for which the Blackberry is famous for. Blackberry sells phone, so doesn't it seem logical to tether your Playbook to your phone and use the data service you are already paying for. I know most business users who have Blackberry's will probably purchase the Playbook ... and probably solely due to the security features.
> 
> Time will tell, but I think we are looking a device targeted for a specific market here, and that that is consonant with it's major product line.


OK you show me a device that does NOT have email client on it. 

RIM is known for email and their messenger, this should do everything and more that a BB cell phone does. This is a screw up on their part, I have to ask who is running their team over there because this is a big hole. 

I can guarantee you, every BB user who picks this up and finds out there is no email client will be disappointed and is that what you want?


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## adagio

I said this long ago, RIM is a one trick pony and they are sinking. It's too bad. I'd love to see a Canadian company flourish but the folks running that place have zero vision or creativity needed to survive. The Playbook as it stands now is a flop. That's not just my opinion but that of the entire techy world too.


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## imactheknife

a classic case where two heads aren't better than one


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## DempsyMac

just wanted to point this out to everyone as it seems that something is missing from the info posted here.

Yes you are correct that the PlayBook does not have email on it when used as a stand alone product but if you own and BlackBerry phone you can pair them and have your email come over to the playbook and it will still be fully secure, also Jim Bastile (is that how you spell it, he is one of the two CEO's) has stated that email will be coming in a software update for stand alone very very soon.

Now don't get me wrong here I do think it is crazy that they shipped this thing with out stand alone email, and that I am sure that the numours reviews I have read that state the product feels rushed are correct.

But having said all of that I have used one this year when I was attending CES in vegas in Jan, and even back then I was impressed by some of the things that they have done to this thing like putting sensors in the bezel for jestures, just makes sence.

Now you may be thinking that I am a RIM shill or something and that could not be farther from the truth I have never ever owned a RIM product I am guessing that I never will. but I think that Apple could learn a thing or two from some of the cooler features that they have thought about in the PlayBook.

Now I do think that this will fail for two key reasons
Reason #1)
It's only 7" and I think that it is proven that 10" is the #Winning (sorry had to do it) size in the tablet space. Especially for a product that has to sync for email, why would I take out a 7" product to check my email on when I can take out my BB to do the same? And don't people love there BB's due to the keyboard and hate software keyboards, so they are not going to type on the PlayBook anyway.
Reason #2)
App's!! I am not talking qty or app store or anything but RIM has decided to support almost every single app development type out there including porting Android apps, this means that there will not be any consitancy throughout the different apps and also that there will be more crashing (a major issue in a number of the reviews) they don't even have there SDK out yet but plan on launching it again "quickly" but even when they do there is no incentive for people to use it when they can build for android and ship for both platforms at once, I think this will be the real reason that it will fail as it is not something that they will be able to "quickly" change.


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## Joker Eh

DempsyMac,

So RIM wanted to be cool with some features, but forgot the most basic feature RIM does and it is email. I don't think they know if they are coming or going, adding support for Andriod apps???? What is going on over there? And the security issues with Andriod apps, as most recnetly noted with the Skype Andriod app. Isn't BB noted for security?

If the email features is going to be added soon, that means they said opps, forgot that one. Duh!!!! Thinking Homer Simpson is working there.

If RIM wants to make money, Number of iPhones Sold X BBM ($9.99) = $$$$$$$$$$

I have said it once and I will say it again, they have forget about hardware, and concentrate on porting what they do (secure email, secure BBM) over to other systems.


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## Guest

Rps said:


> ... First, the use of an iPad without wi-fi requires a data plan [ 3g version ] so, yes you can get email with an iPad, however it is not an encrypted email, for which the Blackberry is famous for.


I beg to differ. All the mail I receive on my iPad and iPhone is most certainly encrypted (via SSL). It's a null argument that's been tossed around for years in defence of BB's. Since the first iPhone there has been SSL support in the iOS Mail app. Even Apple's push notifications are encrypted via 2048 bit SSL.

Let's look at it from the other side of things ... RIM's whole setup revolves around their network. They tout it as a feature, but in my eyes it's a single point of failure/compromise. It's failed before (and left all BB users in North America without email for over a full day) ... and what happens if (when?) someone manages to hack into it?

I think RIM just rushed it out to market in a panic to not lose too much ground to Apple in the tablet world. From everything I've read a lot of people say that the hardware is fine, but the software is not there yet. At least with software they can do updates ... rather have to wait for software updates than to have hardware with serious issues that you can't release a patch for


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## groovetube

As far as I heard the other functions will be out very soon (weeks I heard) the playbook has barely hit the streets, chill.

I'd wait for about 6 months before calling this a failure. I seem to recall the jeers and sabre rattling about android. Jus' sayin.


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## Jugger Grimrodd

The Playbook will not fail. 

RIM's enterprise customers are going buy lots of them. The low cost of adoption, ease of deployment and pre-existing investment in the BlackBerry infrastructure (BES) guarantee this. You just won't see any rad hipsters running around with Playbooks. Okay, maybe some rad hipsters, but you know what I mean. 

RIM's mistake is trying to be every thing to all people. They will figure it out. They are smart people, just a little distracted with managing the growth they have experienced over the past decade. 

It's not an iPad. I think it IS a BlackBerry accessory. 

*** I DO NOT WORK FOR RIM ***


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## Dr_AL

I'm not sure about the playbook. Sure businesses will get some, but lots of businesses have tested the iPad already. Sure the Playbook has a foot in the door with all the balckberries it will still have some competition. It will come down to if it meets a need in the business world or is RIM just pushing out a tablet to follow the iPad. 

The Playbook will be a failure (or perceived as a failure) by the world in comparison to the iPad.

I'm more interested to see what RIM does when they are behind. They have always been in front with the blackberry & businesses, what will they do when they are a year and 3 months behind. 


Sent from my iPhone


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## An Old Soul

"The world's first professional-grade Tablet computer"… doesn't have email.

It's a flop. The consumer space is driving mobile innovation, not the business world.

I want decent competition with iPad because I want the iPad to be better. But Apple is so far ahead and so established in the space it'll be years yet before/if a true competitor emerges.


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## groovetube

as I said, tis all smacks of what I heard about android. The rest is history in that regard. Anyone who thinks this race is over, doesn't recall computing history whatsoever.


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## gmark2000

RIM started off as a text pager for BellSouth, so their messaging derives from this pager model.


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## Guest

groovetube said:


> as I said, tis all smacks of what I heard about android. The rest is history in that regard. Anyone who thinks this race is over, doesn't recall computing history whatsoever.


Yep, I think the only thing we can call this is a less than stellar rollout


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## Mckitrick

RIM's IP is the only thing keeping it's Market Cap up. They've been successful despite themselves since the beginning and despite MASSIVE talent in their employee pool, upper management is really _really_ out to lunch.


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## groovetube

mguertin said:


> Yep, I think the only thing we can call this is a less than stellar rollout


indeed it is. I think they were likely feeling somewhat panicky about the ipad doing so well they let that instead on logic get in the way of sanely waiting a month or so until they had those ducks on a row.

I'm really interested in the device, over the tab, the dev community is jumping on the playbook pretty hard from what I can tell, biz apps would fetch some dollars.


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## fjnmusic

I get a kick out of this whole "rushed to market" theory. What rush? It's well over a year since the iPad was first announced, over a month since the second iPad came out, many months after the Galaxy Tab and the XOOM, and still this device doesn't go on sale until next week. True, the device is incomplete, but it's not because of some kind of rush to market. It's because RIM doesn't know what it's doing. They think they can get people to buy both a BB and a PlayBook, but it appears they've given up on the segment of the population that doesn't already own a Blackberry before they've even begun. Apple does not announce new features until they've been tested and are ready to sell. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression.


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## groovetube

good thing the second chance thing didn't apply to apple eh.

I'm hearing a lot of chest thumping, and not a lot of logic based on history.


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## Chris

I have a feeling that RIM will have a success with this, not iPad type success, but there are a lot of corporate IT types who will go nuts for this. I work in government, and they won't even consider allowing iPhone use, citing security concerns, and Macs and iPads aren't even considered for use on our network. Heck we can't even access YouTube or Facebook! As a result, I can see that the Playbook will be seized on as being sufficiently secure and similar to the iPad to allow onto the network.

Of course, the only ones who will be able to get it will be very senior management types who still think PacMan is cutting edge...


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## jimbotelecom

The thing is half baked. One of the CEO's had a freak out on BBC's Click when asked about opening up access to RIM email to the Indian govt. Lazardis is on edge. His other co-CEO is a loud mouth sales schmuck who wants to own a NHL franchise. These guy's took there eyes off the ball long ago.

I remember when the first small 2nd gen ipods came out and Lazardis was interviewed in the globe and mail saying how amazing the device was and that he bought a few for his kids. Then the iphone came out and RIM had an internal freak out. Their playbook was announced last fall with little to no detail. Now they launch way ahead of the device being useful. Few apps. They're soon to be dead.


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## groovetube

actually, there was quite a bit of detail when they announced it, so much so that many doubted they could deliver such specs.

The apple fanboi-ism is a drag. I obviously love apple stuff too, but not the point where I openly jeer at anything considered competition. It's foolish to think apple's ipad will remain at such a dominant spot. There are far too many computer/tech manufacturers out there to not have a flood of other devices in time taking up a large percentage eventually.

I couldn't predict the playbook's success anymore than I did android.


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## jagga

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> Heard that in the news last night and didn't believe it. How on earth did someone give this the green light. Why not put a browser or an on switch on it.


Another person NOT researching before they type. 

THERE IS A WEBKIT Browser on it and its quite powerful; bonus is it has access to the file system. Unfortunately native apps do not have access beyond the Browser … a work in progress due to the OS being QNX's nature.


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## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> actually, there was quite a bit of detail when they announced it, so much so that many doubted they could deliver such specs.
> 
> The apple fanboi-ism is a drag. I obviously love apple stuff too, but not the point where I openly jeer at anything considered competition. It's foolish to think apple's ipad will remain at such a dominant spot. There are far too many computer/tech manufacturers out there to not have a flood of other devices in time taking up a large percentage eventually.
> 
> I couldn't predict the playbook's success anymore than I did android.


Now who's ignoring history? "Tablet" computers will follow a trajectory closer to that of the iPod than the iPhone, and we all know how painfully few options there are for digital media players beyond the iPod. Nobody else even tried to compete with the iPod Touch, essentially the gateway drug for the iPhone. And it's the young folks Apple deliberately markets to, not the suits and people a few years from retirement. Probably their kids though. I wish RIM well, mostly because they are Canadian, but they are arriving to this party long after most of the guests have either passed out or gone home. The iPad2 is now the game in town, and Apple has the supply, developer, first-mover, ease-of-use, ecosystem, brand recognition and price advantages over all would-be competitors. Good luck to all the rest though; nothing wrong with some decent competition, if only there were any.


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## jagga

I have some comments to make … most based on experience for supporting and troubleshooting BlackBerry's both on BIS and on BES (NOC infrastructure) for hte past, oh … say 6yrs. 

Please forgive me to ripping up quotes only to minimize & focus in this post; I'll do my best not to take out of context. 



RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> No it doesn't. You are implying that the Playbook be sold as a peripheral of the bb. This is what you are saying; if you want to email, look at your calendar, contacts buy a bb, pay for a data plan and buy a tablet to use as a monitor with it's on on-board processing for your bb.
> 
> Email, calendar, address book are used by anyone and everyone with a computer. This is a tablet computer and needs this ability.


Well said. Unfortunately there is a flaw in using this and this same flaw I'm about to mention is the reason why RIM's products have NOT been selling well in North American markets and why market share is beginning to slip in these regions, affecting the whole. 

have any of you actually tried to view an attachment on a Blackberry (on BIS/BES setup)? RIM has done a fantastic job of increasing screen resolution & size respectively while keeping the Bold/Curve lineup small and pocketable & increasing battery life. Unfortunately the screen is just TOO small, and only MS Word attachments are readable or effectively can be edited, Excel is challenging to say the least and PowerPoint attachments … FORGET IT! This is why the PlayBook is mainly marketed for the Enterprise & as an accessory. I'd love to test out the PlayBook & BlackBerry's Bridge partnership over Bluetooth to view & edit attachments. 




MannyP Design said:


> You'd think they'd be twice as efficient with 2 CEOs.


Very arrogant. They've done QUITE well … revenue has only dropped in the last quarter yet the amount of units sold worldwide continues to climb. Their changing their business model. Man you hate without completely understanding the dynamics … 2 CEO's is not better than 1 by any means because decisions will need to be made & finalized by both not with just one!. 



adagio said:


> I said this long ago, RIM is a one trick pony and they are sinking. It's too bad. I'd love to see a Canadian company flourish but the folks running that place have zero vision or creativity needed to survive. The Playbook as it stands now is a flop. That's not just my opinion but that of the entire techy world too.


Zero vision & creativity? 

First … do you understand the limitations of Java CLDC & MIDP2/2.1? MIDP3 has only been finalized in the last 12mths or less and yet the BlackBerry's firmware licensed by Sun Microsystems (originally; since its bought out), has been modified with amazing features for data sharing and accessibility. 

- RIM created their radio stack to be incredibly efficient! Remember the days BEFORE GSM/CDMA in North America being above 21Kbps?! Yes you'd STILL get your emails FAST via push on the Mobitex network, and they've quickly evolved and adapted. BB6 is a nice refresh ~ you'll claim of the same old thing; but it still has power beyond what you may know. 

Creativity? 
- RIM has evolved from a C++ core OS for their RIM products and into the first two models of BlackBerry lineup just under a decade ago to being Java based. 
- Blackberry's have AutoText … something not even the Desktop OS' have (BE, UNIX, Linux, Darwin, OS X, Windows) have. Imagine the ability to save common words/phrases/ even paragraphs you type in emails (don't limit thinking to signatures) and save it once with a 2/3 character word. Then type that word, press space and the system auto populates!! This is NOT word correction or word prediction ~ its so much better and MUCH more powerful. 
- The intelligence to see what Analysts and pundits have been complaining about for 12mths (seeing well over that time) and purchase well known company's or their assets and employees to augment an OS & architecture to future perfect: 
TAT (The Astonishing Tribe) for Themes & UI
Documents to Go (just the license & team) = Documents Editing & Viewing (source/attachments via browser, saved in file system or via email. We already have this on BlackBerry's for the past 4yrs). 
QNX - the core OS kernel for the PlayBook and soon the hardware. 

Currently the core QNX microkernel architecture allows for each component to run as a separate instance memory protect from one another.


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## jagga

mguertin said:


> I beg to differ. All the mail I receive on my iPad and iPhone is most certainly encrypted (via SSL). It's a null argument that's been tossed around for years in defence of BB's. Since the first iPhone there has been SSL support in the iOS Mail app. Even Apple's push notifications are encrypted via 2048 bit SSL.
> 
> Let's look at it from the other side of things ... RIM's whole setup revolves around their network. *They tout it as a feature*, but in my eyes it's a single point of failure/compromise. It's failed before (and left all BB users in North America without email for over a full day) ... a*nd what happens if (when?)* someone manages to hack into it?
> 
> I think RIM just rushed it out to market in a panic to not lose too much ground to Apple in the tablet world. From everything I've read a lot of people say that the hardware is fine, but the software is not there yet. At least with software they can do updates ... rather have to wait for software updates than to have hardware with serious issues that you can't release a patch for


LMAO! So for over 10years the ONLY SINGLE exploit to the NOC or the handheld has been an SMS exploit which has been patched already!! Let's compare that to say Symbian (all 3 S60, UIQ, and another Japanese implementation) has had over 50 and its via applications or the core OS. Windows Mobile … almost just as many and pretty much the same. iOS has been hacked at the root as well, RIM has been merged with different BB OS systems but the security has NOT been compromised. Attacking it without ANY shred of proof is stating verbatim of ppl, uninformed analysts, etc have already done. Lack of proof or education. 

Their NOC has gone down a few times over their implementation. Funning thing is they've NOT gone over 24hrs of bringing it back up! Oddly enough Domino, GroupWise, and yes Exchange have their own issues where service gets interrupted alone or from a firewall upgrade or via changes. I know because I've witness this from multiple places where I've worked as a contractor: Industrial or Financial environments. Focusing on the NOC as a single possible point of failure is just as easily to point out that your providers internet connection as a single point of failure for internet access (from Coverage or from network upgrades). Easy but somewhat pointless if its not so frequent. Out of MOST of the RIM NOC outages are PLANNED and pre-warned in advance by more than 5 days to the outage. 

I'll bet if RIM had much more powerful and versatile applications and OS with "fashionably" designed devices to rival Apple many wouldn't be so hard on them. As the saying goes "The bigger they are, the harder they fall". Its easy to vote down the incumbent & praise the underdog. 

Should RIM fall I'll gaurantee the sale of their patents alone & infrastructure will go double than the total of Nortel's part & parcel sale.


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## jagga

An Old Soul said:


> "The world's first professional-grade Tablet computer"… doesn't have email.
> 
> It's a flop. The consumer space is driving mobile innovation, not the business world.
> 
> I want decent competition with iPad because I want the iPad to be better. But Apple is so far ahead and so established in the space it'll be years yet before/if a true competitor emerges.


Hmm. 

You haven't considered corporate video conferencing - over secure channels involving multiple parties have you? This is more than just Skype - although Skype has its place for both consumers and business users willing to reach external users to collaborate with. Not to mention WebEx as well. 

Imagine a simple solution that provides corporations to have executives use Video Conferencing in their own office or abroad yet still be able to sharing video, documents, slides, and enable markup to all parties in the board room with an ongoing video conference for quarterly meetings?! 

FaceTime on iPad 2 is a joke really - Apple should've delivered better camera's; personally I feel they insulted their consumer market on this. Can the iPad present on the BIG screen via HDMI while interacting on another app on the main screen? 

there should be MORE to a tablet than just the apps available to it … remember applications alone do not make a device … but its how you use the device, how versatile it is and how it can grow with you. There is more than enough market space for more than one Tablet. 

Personally I'm going nuts over the IP4 I have. On the subway if I already used an app and downloaded data I cannot view that data again when switching out of coverage (3G/WLAN). 

Reuters Pro, Bloomberg, Ciniplex Mobile, National Post, Twitter, Wordpress, Beatport, MetroNews, etc. Games are fine. yet any application that allows more than one field or tab full of data limits my ability to switch amongst them to view this data. I LOVE my iP4 but its highly multimedia centric I'm feeling. Maybe its because I already know just about everything with BlackBerry and miss using it (while still working with one for work) and yet I'm also working to fully implement iOS in our corporate office and hopefully be involved with championing the OSX for several users as well in the coming months. I'm caught between two worlds and switching between the two (selling the former device) is getting extremely expensive.


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## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Now who's ignoring history? "Tablet" computers will follow a trajectory closer to that of the iPod than the iPhone, and we all know how painfully few options there are for digital media players beyond the iPod. Nobody else even tried to compete with the iPod Touch, essentially the gateway drug for the iPhone. And it's the young folks Apple deliberately markets to, not the suits and people a few years from retirement. Probably their kids though. I wish RIM well, mostly because they are Canadian, but they are arriving to this party long after most of the guests have either passed out or gone home. The iPad2 is now the game in town, and Apple has the supply, developer, first-mover, ease-of-use, ecosystem, brand recognition and price advantages over all would-be competitors. Good luck to all the rest though; nothing wrong with some decent competition, if only there were any.


History. As in, well before, the ipod. No, the tablet is NOT like the ipod. Tablets are not new, and are simply another form factor for a computer. If you think the tablet is just like the ipod, you aren't paying very close attention -at all-.

Jagga, thanks for the interesting info. Unfortunately it just gets boring to listen to fanbois mouth off and chest thump. Apple makes great products, but this just gets tiring. As I said, I recall the same bunch laughing at android when it was practically nothing, and now we hear it will be the dominant platform next year.

I'll likely be getting an ipad, a playbook, and an android tablet this year. It'll be an interesting competition, one that I think will only really get underway about a year from now.


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## Guest

jagga said:


> LMAO! So for over 10years the ONLY SINGLE exploit to the NOC or the handheld has been an SMS exploit which has been patched already!! Let's compare that to say Symbian (all 3 S60, UIQ, and another Japanese implementation) has had over 50 and its via applications or the core OS. Windows Mobile … almost just as many and pretty much the same. iOS has been hacked at the root as well, RIM has been merged with different BB OS systems but the security has NOT been compromised. Attacking it without ANY shred of proof is stating verbatim of ppl, uninformed analysts, etc have already done. Lack of proof or education.
> 
> Their NOC has gone down a few times over their implementation. Funning thing is they've NOT gone over 24hrs of bringing it back up! Oddly enough Domino, GroupWise, and yes Exchange have their own issues where service gets interrupted alone or from a firewall upgrade or via changes. I know because I've witness this from multiple places where I've worked as a contractor: Industrial or Financial environments. Focusing on the NOC as a single possible point of failure is just as easily to point out that your providers internet connection as a single point of failure for internet access (from Coverage or from network upgrades). Easy but somewhat pointless if its not so frequent. Out of MOST of the RIM NOC outages are PLANNED and pre-warned in advance by more than 5 days to the outage.


First, I wasn't talking about hacking the devices ... I could honestly care less about that personally. I was talking about their single point of failure infrastructure. As for comparing the RIM NOC to my ISP let me put it this way: If my ISP stops working I can simply switch on 3G on my iPhone and tether it, or I could use my neighbour's wireless, or .. well you get the point. When the RIM NOC goes down most of the BB users North America wide experience get no email. BIG difference between the two. Also planned outages at that level of service are just another thing to illustrate my point about single point of failure. When you're providing service to that many people over such a wide area you should have redundancy as part of your design. That's network design 101. Apparently they skipped that class.

If you were trying to compare RIM to where my email is hosted, again, sorry but no luck there. I run my own hosting servers and they have full redundancy. If one goes down another can take over within 5 minutes. For that matter you could even blow up one of the 2 hosting facilities where my servers live and I would still be ok (two different data centres).

I wish them the best of luck with their stuff, but it's just not for me -- and that doesn't come from my apple fanboy'ism ... that comes from real world experience both using and supporting BB's. It took them how many years to even bother with any kind of OS support beyond windows, and then it still took them how to long to get it right (is it right yet? I gave up on BB's and OSX as I no longer have to support them, all my clients ditched them some time ago and went to iPhones) At one point there were some third party tools that worked ok, but not 100%. They took a similar approach to what Palm used to (before they went the way of the dodo) ... it "sorta" works for you, good enough. If you want it to work properly then use windows. RIM still has that old-school kind of approach/feel of the old Palm to me to be honest, but they are no longer innovating, they are playing catch up... but ... they could have been ahead of the pack as they were miles ahead of everyone else at one point in the game.


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## groovetube

Blackberries, were mainly a business/corporate thing. Given that world is about 98% windows,and worked for pretty much that entire segment I don't think it's a stretch to understand why RIM couldn't care less about OS X.

Jus' sayin.


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## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> History. As in, well before, the ipod. No, the tablet is NOT like the ipod. Tablets are not new, and are simply another form factor for a computer. If you think the tablet is just like the ipod, you aren't paying very close attention -at all-.
> 
> Jagga, thanks for the interesting info. Unfortunately it just gets boring to listen to fanbois mouth off and chest thump. Apple makes great products, but this just gets tiring. As I said, I recall the same bunch laughing at android when it was practically nothing, and now we hear it will be the dominant platform next year.
> 
> I'll likely be getting an ipad, a playbook, and an android tablet this year. It'll be an interesting competition, one that I think will only really get underway about a year from now.


You realize, of course, that your condescension and dismissiveness also gets boring. And predictable. Why not actually try and comment with some consideration on the points the rest of us make? And maybe it's time to come up with something more original than "fanboi."


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## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> You realize, of course, that your condescension and dismissiveness also gets boring. And predictable. Why not actually try and comment with some consideration on the points the rest of us make? And maybe it's time to come up with something more original than "fanboi."


If I actually saw some consideration, and some decent points beyond "IT's a joke! It sucks! It dead in the water!

Then perhaps, I'd be a little less condescending.


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## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> If I actually saw some consideration, and some decent points beyond "IT's a joke! It sucks! It dead in the water!
> 
> Then perhaps, I'd be a little less condescending.


Yup. I figured that's what you'd say. So I suppose Walt Mossberg and David Pogue and such are not very reliable either when we read their views of the PlayBook and its limitations. Or RIM's earlier characterization of Apps as a fad and now they are desperately trying to get Android apps to work on the PlayBook. It's no joke; RIM is going to be up a creek if the PB does not sell well, and the early indications are that this product was not ready for market. This is based on reviews by people that I believe have given fair reviews of other products over time and are probably trustworthy. But if you think I'm being obtuse, well you just go right ahead and believe what you need to believe.


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Yup. I figured that's what you'd say. So I suppose Walt Mossberg and David Pogue and such are not very reliable either when we read their views of the PlayBook and its limitations. Or RIM's earlier characterization of Apps as a fad and now they are desperately trying to get Android apps to work on the PlayBook. It's no joke; RIM is going to be up a creek if the PB does not sell well, and the early indications are that this product was not ready for market. This is based on reviews by people that I believe have given fair reviews of other products over time and are probably trustworthy. But if you think I'm being obtuse, well you just go right ahead and believe what you need to believe.



They're wrong! Wrong! WRONG! 


Who are those guys again?


----------



## Guest

groovetube said:


> Blackberries, were mainly a business/corporate thing. Given that world is about 98% windows,and worked for pretty much that entire segment I don't think it's a stretch to understand why RIM couldn't care less about OS X.
> 
> Jus' sayin.


I think that 98% is a little (well a lot) too high of an estimate there, especially these days. If a company that's trying to complete with Apple in the handheld and tablet market wants to basically not support their competitions desktop platform that's fine, but probably not the smartest move they could make. My post wasn't condemning them for making that choice, it was backing up why I (and most mac user's that I know) gave up on them. Once you've burned those bridges it's pretty hard to win back that segment.

Just sayin'


----------



## Macfury

I don't think groovetube will like what you're saying here.... Fanboi!!


----------



## groovetube

mguertin said:


> I think that 98% is a little (well a lot) too high of an estimate there, especially these days. If a company that's trying to complete with Apple in the handheld and tablet market wants to basically not support their competitions desktop platform that's fine, but probably not the smartest move they could make. My post wasn't condemning them for making that choice, it was backing up why I (and most mac user's that I know) gave up on them. Once you've burned those bridges it's pretty hard to win back that segment.
> 
> Just sayin'


Despite the usuals looking for an argument...

I agree with you, you're absolutely right. RIM should be embracing the apple platform far more than they are, (or have) and it would be in their best interest to do so absolutely. Yeah 98% is overstating, but truthfully business has been pretty much a windows world, though we have seen apple begin to make some inroads finally.



fjnmusic said:


> Yup. I figured that's what you'd say. So I suppose Walt Mossberg and David Pogue and such are not very reliable either when we read their views of the PlayBook and its limitations. Or RIM's earlier characterization of Apps as a fad and now they are desperately trying to get Android apps to work on the PlayBook. It's no joke; RIM is going to be up a creek if the PB does not sell well, and the early indications are that this product was not ready for market. This is based on reviews by people that I believe have given fair reviews of other products over time and are probably trustworthy. But if you think I'm being obtuse, well you just go right ahead and believe what you need to believe.


Once again, you've tried to make this all about me totally disagreeing with the criticisms of the thing we're talking about, when you need to stop and think about what I'm saying here.

To be clear, I think RIM has jumped the gun, and have missed a good opportunity in their launch. But I have no idea how well the playbook will actually do, I don't doubt that it will fall short of how the ipad is doing, but I think chest thumping and high fiving with a pile of other mis information is useless, once again. I prefer apple stuff in general, as shown by my purchasing choices, but I'm also a gadget fan, and admittedly I like the playbook, and plan to get one as it matures, likely when the 3G model comes out. Saying RIM is 'such a joke', is kinda stupid. If I wanted to see that sort of sandbox stuff you can find that at appleinsider or macrumors.


----------



## Macfury

OK, I was wrong.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> They're wrong! Wrong! WRONG!
> 
> 
> Who are those guys again?


Like.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> Despite the usuals looking for an argument...
> 
> I agree with you, you're absolutely right. RIM should be embracing the apple platform far more than they are, (or have) and it would be in their best interest to do so absolutely. Yeah 98% is overstating, but truthfully business has been pretty much a windows world, though we have seen apple begin to make some inroads finally.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, you've tried to make this all about me totally disagreeing with the criticisms of the thing we're talking about, when you need to stop and think about what I'm saying here.
> 
> To be clear, I think RIM has jumped the gun, and have missed a good opportunity in their launch. But I have no idea how well the playbook will actually do, I don't doubt that it will fall short of how the ipad is doing, but I think chest thumping and high fiving with a pile of other mis information is useless, once again. I prefer apple stuff in general, as shown by my purchasing choices, but I'm also a gadget fan, and admittedly I like the playbook, and plan to get one as it matures, likely when the 3G model comes out. Saying RIM is 'such a joke', is kinda stupid. If I wanted to see that sort of sandbox stuff you can find that at appleinsider or macrumors.


Well, I never said 'such a joke.' That's the title of the thread. I would have probably chosen the words 'desperate and pathetic' instead. No question that RIM came up with a pretty cool product in its time, even endorsed by President Obama. But it's 2011 now and they are nowhere near the cutting edge anymore. If you want to bask in your own shadow of former glory days, you may as well call yourself MicroSoft.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> Saying RIM is 'such a joke', is kinda stupid. If I wanted to see that sort of sandbox stuff you can find that at appleinsider or macrumors.


I said RIM is such a joke and its not stupid. To come out with a device that doesn't do the basic thing they are known for is "STUPID" and a "JOKE". And to come out and parade it around and its not ready with all it can do is well "SAD".


----------



## jimbotelecom

Sounds like Flash has issues:

BlackBerry PlayBook Tablet Lacks All the Right Moves | Product Reviews | Wired.com


----------



## groovetube

I think it wasn't wise for them to release it before they had those functions available, but given it isn't available quite yet and those functions will be available soon, it isn't accurate to say 'it doesn't do the basic thing they are known for'.

But again, I recall the same chest thumping about android when it came out, and I heard the same assumptions it was a failure already.

Regardless of what words you use, 'joke, sad, pathetic', whatever.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> Sounds like Flash has issues:
> 
> BlackBerry PlayBook Tablet Lacks All the Right Moves | Product Reviews | Wired.com


interesting, I haven't heard this from the devs I work with who have one, but given RIM has for some inexplicable reason decided to pass these out before it's stable, it somehow doesn't surprise me to hear some reports of this.


----------



## keebler27

I've tried to keep an open mind with rim bc they do employ canadians and I do think it's imp to have competitors BUT I was completely surprised to read this:

"
A major knock against the PlayBook that will affect consumer and corporate users is not having direct access to their email, contacts or calendar without using a BlackBerry smartphone and downloading the BlackBerry Bridge app to do so."

For a company known for it's secure email capabilities, I am the only one absolutely shocked at this?!?!?

Seems like shooting oneself in the foot !


----------



## groovetube

I heard from someone that corporate takes a very long time to approve new email clients. So even if they did release it, corporate wouldn't use it for a while.

I can't know how true this personally, but it came from a source I consider reliable.


----------



## fjnmusic

Am I missing something here? Is mail via mobile.me really that insecure? I've never had any problems with my mail app on any device, but the way people talk about Blackberry mail, you'd think it was blessed by the Lord himself. Is it perhaps just a little too hyped? I mean, it's just e-mail, for gosh sakes, which can be forwarded by anyone who opens it and fall into the wrong hands. If you want security, send a registered letter.


----------



## groovetube

yes, you are missing something.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> yes, you are missing something.


That was helpful. Please continue…


----------



## groovetube

that info is readily available, as is the reason why the sky is blue.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> that info is readily available, as is the reason why the sky is blue.


Fascinating. Got any more unknown facts to enlighten us with?


----------



## groovetube

any half wit can google why corporations prefer blackberries and it's security. In fact there are countries out there, making big news out there wanting access. Go, type it in. Have at'er.

man what a waste of time this can be. g'nite.


----------



## Macfury

Heaven forfend. Proving your point is just googlin' it, eh, groove? No reason to lower ourselves to that.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> any half wit can google why corporations prefer blackberries and it's security. In fact there are countries out there, making big news out there wanting access. Go, type it in. Have at'er.
> 
> man what a waste of time this can be. g'nite.


If you can't be bothered to explain your point, then my point stands. There is no reason to assume your e-mail is any safer with a RIM device than it is anywhere else. The pitfalls of e-mail have more to do with what people do with the e-mail _after_ it has been received. Forwarding takes a second to cause a great deal of damage. This can happen with any system, RIM, Apple, Microsoft, GMail or otherwise.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> If you can't be bothered to explain your point, then my point stands. There is no reason to assume your e-mail is any safer with a RIM device than it is anywhere else. The pitfalls of e-mail have more to do with what people do with the e-mail _after_ it has been received. Forwarding takes a second to cause a great deal of damage. This can happen with any system, RIM, Apple, Microsoft, GMail or otherwise.


groove wants you to do his side of it now, fjn--please google and post a rebuttal to your own argument. Heaven know it's out there somewhere.


----------



## groovetube

this is for fools. This is no different than some anonymous genius on a forum somewhere whining about mac users and their insistence their computers don't get viruses and are more secure. Prove it! He whines. The problem here is I'm talking about a non apple product. Oh oh...

gah. If it was something that needed real discussion sure. Something like this, go look for yourself FFS.


----------



## groovetube

Microsoft's Ashley Highfield says no dedicated tablet OS until the time is right -- Engadget

Speaking of joke, now there's the -real- joke in this tablet warz conversation. Microsoft wants to wait until it can do something, 'distinctive'.

Say hello, to the new microsoft, Google.


----------



## Joker Eh

fjnmusic said:


> Am I missing something here? Is mail via mobile.me really that insecure? I've never had any problems with my mail app on any device, but the way people talk about Blackberry mail, you'd think it was blessed by the Lord himself. Is it perhaps just a little too hyped? I mean, it's just e-mail, for gosh sakes, which can be forwarded by anyone who opens it and fall into the wrong hands. If you want security, send a registered letter.


Someone could intercept your email without you knowing and read your email.

There is a difference when using RIM email and messages. They are one of the most secure forms of communication. Their encryption is one of the toughest to break, I don't know if it has been done. That's why countries are asking RIM for its encryption key so that they can view emails and messages being sent and received within their borders.

That's why I am saying they should focus on that and sell the service for other devices other than BB.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> Microsoft's Ashley Highfield says no dedicated tablet OS until the time is right -- Engadget
> 
> Speaking of joke, now there's the -real- joke in this tablet warz conversation. Microsoft wants to wait until it can do something, 'distinctive'.
> 
> Say hello, to the new microsoft, Google.


First this is no "tablet warz conversation", RIM is Canadian I'd like to see them succeed, not that I buy one of their products but I don't want them to go the way of Nortel.

Second, yes Microsoft is get old real fast, man did they miss the boat. But thats a topic for another thread.


----------



## groovetube

This isn't a tablet warz conversation? And we're talking about the playbook, not staking up because of it's 'joke' shortcomings?

riiiight.


----------



## gmark2000

Ignoring the fact that this was a textbook example of the worst product launches ever (great fodder for business school case studies), the PlayBook is a solid device and deserves credit for what it's achieved in less than a year. This does say a lot about the Canadian technology talent that pulled this off so far. 

The fact that RIM's marketing chief Keith Pardy announced his resignation in early March is telling of the failings at the marketing and PR at the company.

Let's hope that RIM maintains some profitability for this project and continues to innovate and give consumers new features.


----------



## iMatt

I wish RIM well, and am glad the PlayBook isn't simply an iPad clone, but this is a bit of a mess, isn't it?

- 6-7 months between pre-announcement and shipping. Not good if trying to woo consumers
- even so, may have shipped too early
- apparently some intent to appeal to consumers (the name, the broad retail availability), but lacking the software and independence from a BB that would really make it attractive outside corporations and/or existing BB customers

That said, like all Apple competitors, RIM was between a rock and a hard place:

- Apple priced its new toy aggressively, possibly for the first time (someone will probably come up with another example... but in any case it's very rare)
- many were caught off guard when the iPad didn't suffer the same fate as all the previous tablets 
- they had to come up with something that would be equal or better plus competitively priced, and do it fast, even though Apple had the benefit of several years' development work on the iPad
- few if any competitors can use the same or better economies of scale as Apple, making it really hard to compete on price *and* hardware features

In other words, building a worthy competitor to the iPad (let alone a "killer") is an enormous challenge for anyone. Still, it's a bit too soon to say whether RIM has totally dropped the ball here; still very early days in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## groovetube

I think they should have waited a month or two. I know a lot, of dev shops ready to churn out playbook apps, one who devs some number 1 ipad apps, apparently has 11 ready to go out. It'd been better if they went out with all those apps already set up.

But, android was pretty rough around the gills when it first went out, and it's sailing past the iphone. Never say never.


----------



## Guest

groovetube said:


> I think they should have waited a month or two. I know a lot, of dev shops ready to churn out playbook apps, one who devs some number 1 ipad apps, apparently has 11 ready to go out. It'd been better if they went out with all those apps already set up.
> 
> But, android was pretty rough around the gills when it first went out, and it's sailing past the iphone. Never say never.


Yep they should have waited and had a more unified launch with a closer to finished OS, more apps, etc.

I'm not sure I agree that Android is sailing past the iPhone though. In some areas yes (sheer numbers when you add up all the various flavours of hardware and Androis OS that are out there), in other areas no (specifically quality control and user experience). My problem with android is the potential (and in fact the demonstrated approach in some cases) for it to be handled poorly by the phone manufacturers ... different versions, different revisions of the same versions, hardware specific hacks, etc. Because of this it can be kind of a mixed bag. I've tried a couple of phones that felt good with it, and a couple that felt totally horrible and thrown together. I've yet to try one that felt really polished and well matched to the hardware (but I've been limited to just trying out friends' phones so that doesn't mean much).

One of the biggest complaints I've heard are from people that have the hardware specific versions of Android supplied by their hardware vendor and end up waiting and waiting for OS updates (which they may never even bother to do if they decide to EOL those particular models). Even though you're running Android and all this new stuff happens all the time you're stuck with whatever your hardware manufacturer gets around to giving you. Not all Android phones are like this, but apparently many are.

This is due to the polar opposite approaches of walled garden/total hardware control vs. open OS, open app installation and open hardware. It's kind of like Mac vs. Windows all over again in certain aspects ... one of the biggest problems windows faces as an OS is the fact that they have to support a gazillion pieces of hardware that are all built to radically different standards. Apple's approach has always been a closed hardware platform, a closed OS and with iOS the walled garden for apps. Not saying one approach is better than the other, just saying that they are radically different, especially when it comes to the user experience and the overall QA of things. They both have advantages and disadvantages. I'm just glad that there are viable competitors for each approach in the mobile arena.


----------



## groovetube

well all of that is true, when I said sailed past iphones, I meant, they're starting to outsell the iphones in general, and it's projected they will certainly in the next year. This from a platform the apple guys laughed at as unfinished, no apps, and just crap. I've heard the apple guys complain well apple makes more profit. Whatever. Because they were originally boasting higher numbers and marketshare which is what I'm talking about really.

I have no doubt android is the new windows, microsoft simply is too stupid to actually get a coherent plan at all it seems, though win7 mobile is surprisingly good, and different than the traditional icon screen like iOS or android.

As for the playbook, I think the jeering as a 'joke' is a bit premature. The thing to remember about this whole game over the next few years, is as the other companies get more on board and have matured platforms, these things move quickly and people upgrade quickly, those 48 million ipads will be second/third hand and/or in a landfill as consumers will buy new tablets. And it may not be necessarily ipads the way it is now. Apple has quite a pace ahead of them to keep up.


----------



## Mckitrick

What I find amazing is that RIM gloated for many years about how other competing companies were merely offering "vaporware" and incomplete feature sets, etc. and now they're doing the same. 
My, how the smug have fallen.


----------



## groovetube

it shows it doesn't pay to rip something apart before seeing where it goes in the end, calling things a joke before you know...


----------



## iMatt

groovetube said:


> I've heard the apple guys complain well apple makes more profit. Whatever. Because they were originally boasting higher numbers and marketshare which is what I'm talking about really.


Apple-watchers* have been claiming that "profits matter more than gross market share" for a long time now. It's the logical conclusion from an observation about Macs and all other PCs: Macs are only a small % of all PCs sold, but they are a very significant and growing proportion of the computers consumers buy for themselves, and Apple captures an outsized share of the industry's profits because it doesn't crank out millions of low-end/low-margin boxes for general business use.

If you're Apple (or a shareholder), profits have to matter more than unit share _as long as you have enough users to keep the platform attractive to developers_. In other words, the Mac may be a niche, but it's a big enough niche to have a critical mass of users worth developing for (i.e. ones who spend money on software and content). I see no reason why the very same thing won't apply to iOS in the long run.

As for where RIM stands in all this... I really have no idea how it's going to play out, but my guess is that there's plenty of room for RIM to be a successful niche player without putting much of a dent in Apple's business. Even if they iron out the bugs and get some compelling software out quickly, I just don't see consumers flocking to the PlayBook, but that's not necessarily a failure for RIM.

_* Or fanboys if you insist, whatever -- though I gotta say the f-word is not conducive to civilized discussion._


----------



## groovetube

there is a difference. There apple fans, or users, and then, there are fanbois.

In general apple users are pretty balanced and understand. The few fanbois are the ones that are literally walking apple ads, and can't be reasoned with whatsoever. I wouldn't call debating them civilized discussion in the first place.


----------



## SINC

At the end of the day, consumer support will determine the fate of the device and nothing posted here will change that.


----------



## iMatt

groovetube said:


> there is a difference. There apple fans, or users, and then, there are fanbois.
> 
> In general apple users are pretty balanced and understand. The few fanbois are the ones that are literally walking apple ads, and can't be reasoned with whatsoever. I wouldn't call debating them civilized discussion in the first place.


Yeah, well, I've been through the lovely experience of having my sincere, reasoned disagreement branded as blind Apple worship, and it's a great big fail as a debating tactic.


----------



## groovetube

iMatt said:


> Yeah, well, I've been through the lovely experience of having my sincere, reasoned disagreement branded as blind Apple worship, and it's a great big fail as a debating tactic.


it certainly is, as just about everytime I set the record straight on things, I'm called an adobe shill, apple hater, blah blah, and usually end up defending why I've argued what I have.

As I said, there are those that spout misinformation excitedly boasting about their company, and those who have a balanced view of things.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> it certainly is, as just about everytime I set the record straight on things, I'm called an adobe shill, apple hater, blah blah, and usually end up defending why I've argued what I have.
> 
> As I said, there are those that spout misinformation excitedly boasting about their company, and those who have a balanced view of things.


LOL, so your way of thinking is the right way of thinking? :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> LOL, so your way of thinking is the right way of thinking? :lmao:


-my- way of thinking?

You'll have to explain that one I'm afraid.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> it certainly is, as just about everytime *I set the record straight on things*, I'm called an adobe shill, apple hater, blah blah, and usually end up defending why I've argued what I have.
> 
> As I said, *there are those that spout misinformation excitedly boasting about their company, and those who have a balanced view of things.*





groovetube said:


> -my- way of thinking?
> 
> You'll have to explain that one I'm afraid.


If someone says something you didn't agree with it's misinformation vs your spouts are balanced.


----------



## Joker Eh

LOL, 

Twitpic - Share photos and videos on Twitter


----------



## iMatt

groovetube said:


> it certainly is, as just about everytime I set the record straight on things, I'm called an adobe shill, apple hater, blah blah, and usually end up defending why I've argued what I have.
> 
> As I said, there are those that spout misinformation excitedly boasting about their company, and those who have a balanced view of things.


Yup, those insults are just as bad. We can add "fandroid" to the list, too.

They're ad hominem attacks, usually the sign of a weak argument.

So even when someone's argument isn't a weak one, when they start to trot out those kinds of insults they only make themselves look just as blinkered, dogmatic and weak as their opponent. It's why platform wars have always been so tiresome.


----------



## Kleles

I suggest the debaters have a look at "cognitive distortions" on Google and elsewhere. Added to the 8 or 10 listed, of course, should be "denigrate the other" (ad hominem attacks). 

Debaters are already convinced or committed to their opinion. The debate (discussion) should be presented in a way to convince others.


----------



## imnothng

Joker Eh said:


> LOL, so your way of thinking is the right way of thinking? :lmao:


Don't all religious people think this way in light of actual facts?


----------



## CubaMark

...uh... wow.... I came in here thinking this was a thread about RIM's new PlayBook. Huh. Ah, well, back to surfing...


----------



## DR Hannon

CubaMark said:


> ...uh... wow.... I came in here thinking this was a thread about RIM's new PlayBook. Huh. Ah, well, back to surfing...


Why let the thread title and first comment cloud your judgment.


----------



## groovetube

it certainly didn't for the poster who injected the religion thing.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I think they should have waited a month or two. I know a lot, of dev shops ready to churn out playbook apps, one who devs some number 1 ipad apps, apparently has 11 ready to go out. It'd been better if they went out with all those apps already set up.
> 
> But, android was pretty rough around the gills when it first went out, and it's sailing past the iphone. Never say never.


Collectively, Android sales are large, which earns no direct profit for Google since the OS is free. But take a closer look at the individual companies that use the Android OS, since they are also competing with each other, in addition to competing against iOS and others. You really think they're all going to win?

As RIM is the only company other than Apple making its own hardware and software, they theoretically have a chance here, but only if the product is good and people will buy it. There are more differences than similarities to the Android game. So far, RIM is only potentially appealing to current BB owners. Of the people I've spoken to, many of whom own BB's, almost none of them have even heard of the PlayBook. RIM has some huge obstacles to overcome.


----------



## fjnmusic

iMatt said:


> Yeah, well, I've been through the lovely experience of having my sincere, reasoned disagreement branded as blind Apple worship, and it's a great big fail as a debating tactic.


Like ( since I can't find a like button on Tapatalk).


----------



## SINC

Tapatalk is a terrible app. Never have been able to post here with it.


----------



## imnothng

SINC said:


> Tapatalk is a terrible app. Never have been able to post here with it.


Hmm, I just started using in on my iPad a couple days ago. I think it's bloody brilliant. It's so much easier than using safari to browse forums (for me anyways).


----------



## SINC

Yeah, that's what everyone else says. I have it on both my iPhone and iPad 2, but it has never allowed me to post from it. I've trashed it, downloaded it again, run OnyX, repaired permissions and tried another download and install. Nothing. then I erased it from both the iPhone and the iPad and also the MBP and tried installing it direct from iTunes app store to both the iPhone and the iPad. Same issue, I can read forums, but not post. Just weird.


----------



## groovetube

I tried tapatalk as well some time ago. I don't know if they improved it but that was a waste of a couple bucks.


----------



## fjnmusic

imnothng said:


> Hmm, I just started using in on my iPad a couple days ago. I think it's bloody brilliant. It's so much easier than using safari to browse forums (for me anyways).


Like, again. It's far easier to get to your "participated" threads in Tapatalk than on a laptop/desktop, where you have to look at your statistics, which involves more searching.


----------



## hayesk

fjnmusic said:


> As RIM is the only company other than Apple making its own hardware and software, they theoretically have a chance here, but only if the product is good and people will buy it.


I agree with this. I'm just surprised that RIM released such a half-arsed product. Reasons they struck out:

1. No messaging or calendaring. They (and the RIM apologists) claim it was done on purpose for security reasons. What it really means is that you need to own a BB (and not a corporate-owned locked down BB) and have it with you to do any sort of messaging and calendaring on it. Even if you have a BB for work, you can't do personal email on calendaring on it.

2. No apps. 'nuff said.

3. Announcing an Android compatibility layer. Anyone remember OS/2? I'll forgive you if you don't. OS/2 has a Win16 compatibility layer so everyone could run their Windows apps in OS/2 - except that it worked well enough that no developer bothered to make OS/2-native apps. Users then were free to switch to Windows95 when it was released and could take all their software with them. Nobody bothered with OS/2 after that. I see the same thing happening with the Playbook.

4. Mixed marketings. The ads say "The first professional tablet" but in an interview with the product manager on the radio, he was saying "this is a fun tablet, it has flash, and comes with Need for Speed - it's a great game playing machine.

That said, there are loyal BB fans who will buy this. It will never be as successful as the iPad, but it may garner a small following.


----------



## Macfury

The chickens are coming home to roost. RIM stock is plummeting, even with the support of our local Playbook buyer.

RIM stock plunges, major shareholder starts selling - The Globe and Mail


----------



## jimbotelecom

Have been of the opinion for a long time that Balsille has to go. The other guy can stay but then he needs some competent marketing. 

They might be reduced to a niche player.


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> The chickens are coming home to roost. RIM stock is plummeting, even with the support of our local Playbook buyer.
> 
> RIM stock plunges, major shareholder starts selling - The Globe and Mail


I was going to bring this up again, as I read the report this morning but I said what for, I didn't want to prove my point. I just don't think they have focus. They seem to be all over the place.

They are going to the way of Nortel, or the dodo bird.


----------



## Joker Eh

jimbotelecom said:


> Have been of the opinion for a long time that Balsille has to go. The other guy can stay but then he needs some competent marketing.
> 
> They might be reduced to a niche player.


You think the problem is marketing?


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> You think the problem is marketing?


Personally, I think they're doing a great job at marketing--but have nothing to match the hype.


----------



## ehMax

I think its a bit of both, but definitely their marketing is abysmal, and all over the place. 

I was just thinking the morning at the stark contrast between's RIM's tactic and Apple's. 

As much as anyone might disagree, a companies "Brand" is one of their biggest assets. RIM really doesn't feel like they have a brand. At all. They just have a hodge-bodge of ads. 

The two ads below are a perfect example:

This is one of my favourite Apple ads ever, and one of my favourite ads ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyEpaPEbjzI

It show what the product can do, but really sells the Apple brand, their philosophy. It gets to the heart of the argument to. Technology is great. Features are great. You need those, but that alone doesn't make a good product. 

Contrast that to RIM's playbook ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STw4zti94iM

A whole entire slick ad on one really minute, specific feature. Flash. 

I've asked several people about that ad, and a lot of people who aren't completely into tech barely even know what Flash is. At the very least, they hardly care. They've seen the ads what the iPad can do. It's not like they look at this ad, and suddenly feel like they are missing out and this is going to be the tipping point to want a Playbook. 

It's such a stark comparison to me.


----------



## groovetube

I think blackberry has made a large mistake in focusing on flash support in their ads. Their marketing campaign has been all over the place.

But they still have a pretty large footprint in the marketplace, so it's theirs to lose at this point. But I have learned a long time ago, not to write some things off early in the game. There's been a few companies people called a joke and wereabout to head into oblivion, before...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> I think blackberry has made a large mistake in focusing on flash support in their ads. Their marketing campaign has been all over the place.
> 
> But they still have a pretty large footprint in the marketplace, so it's theirs to lose at this point. But I have learned a long time ago, not to write some things off early in the game. There's been a few companies people called a joke and wereabout to head into oblivion, before...


Agreed on all points.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> I think blackberry has made a large mistake in focusing on flash support in their ads. Their marketing campaign has been all over the place.
> 
> But they still have a pretty large footprint in the marketplace, so it's theirs to lose at this point. But I have learned a long time ago, not to write some things off early in the game. There's been a few companies people called a joke and wereabout to head into oblivion, before...


Very true.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Joker Eh said:


> You think the problem is marketing?


No it's the shared CEO with one of them being a high roller type wasting time try to buy hockey teams...no focus...and he's the sales guy. It's structure, personality and marketing as a whole.


----------



## groovetube

truthfully Apple has changed the game drastically. And either RIM plays ball or they don't. The playbook is a good product, but they just aren't upping the ante like they could.


----------



## BigDL

At one time Nokia was the premier hand set maker, RIM was in the lead. Android and various hand set makers are out in front.

Who knows what will appeals to hand set buyers and that seems to be the way of future?

RIM, makes a decent product that appealed to the enterprise market and a few others. How much growth is there in that market. The retail market is not looking to RIM's offering I would not think.

RIM's Playbook I not sure which market that devise is aimed.


----------



## groovetube

RIM has quite a loyal following, especially with young people and BBM. I don't really understand it, but it just is. I think blackberry should learn from this and understand that it should focus more on the environment going forward (did I just use that toxic phrase??) and take a page from apple's success on it's ecosystem. RIM should have learned this already from their success already.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I think blackberry has made a large mistake in focusing on flash support in their ads. Their marketing campaign has been all over the place.
> 
> But they still have a pretty large footprint in the marketplace, so it's theirs to lose at this point. But I have learned a long time ago, not to write some things off early in the game. There's been a few companies people called a joke and wereabout to head into oblivion, before...


Down 21%, and that's just today. If it's their game to lose, they're certainly doing a good job of it.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Down 21%, and that's just today. If it's their game to lose, they're certainly doing a good job of it.


Now, now--just because the Playbook is a loser and people are dumping RIM shares in droves, doesn't mean that there won;t be a Playbook in every businessperson's hand, just waiting for the glorious moment when it sends e-mail! 

I believe someone here said so.


----------



## groovetube

now now. Just because I have an axe to grind from another thread doesn't mean I won't mouth off like a fool just because.

Try a subject you something about macfury.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Down 21%, and that's just today. If it's their game to lose, they're certainly doing a good job of it.


sure, you speak the obvious, but it isn;t like a company hasn't done this before. Microsoft's earning have been way down and they aren't going anywhere. That's not to say they won't continue down a bad path, it's theirs to turn around.

But I don't understand the level of glee and hand clapping of the fanbois because RIM has been paying for some bad moves and marketing. AT some of the other mac forums, they're just tap dancing on the table. It's what I hate about apple lovers. Really.

Believe me. No one benefits from apple being 90% of the market.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> now now. Just because I have an axe to grind from another thread doesn't mean I won't mouth off like a fool just because.


What are you going on about your axe to grind in another thread? 

You're not the only person who agrees with that viewpoint. From this thread:



Rps said:


> I know most business users who have Blackberry's will probably purchase the Playbook ... and probably solely due to the security features.


----------



## groovetube

well as a "local playbook buyer", I got the reference. If you want to snipe, don't cry when bitten back.

cue outrage...


----------



## Macfury

Talk about ego.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> ...Believe me. *No one benefits from apple being 90% of the market.*


I agree. Competition is good, it makes everyone better. Lest people forget (as you mentioned previously) not that long ago Apple was down and out and some thought they would be just a footnote in the history of technology... my how times have changed.

Whether or not RIM is capable of coming back from the brink of oblivion, only time will tell, but they are far from being irrelevant even now.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> sure, you speak the obvious, but it isn;t like a company hasn't done this before. Microsoft's earning have been way down and they aren't going anywhere. That's not to say they won't continue down a bad path, it's theirs to turn around.
> 
> But I don't understand the level of glee and hand clapping of the fanbois because RIM has been paying for some bad moves and marketing. AT some of the other mac forums, they're just tap dancing on the table. It's what I hate about apple lovers. Really.
> 
> Believe me. No one benefits from apple being 90% of the market.


Not 90% of the market, my friend, 90% of the profits. And 90% of the market for over $1000 computers. And 90% of the market for digital music players and tablets, while we're at it. And if we can't gloat a little right now, after wonderful RIM's 21% one day drop in share value, when do you suggest would be a better time to gloat?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> I agree. Competition is good, it makes everyone better. Lest people forget (as you mentioned previously) not that long ago Apple was down and out and some thought they would be just a footnote in the history of technology... my how times have changed.


Apple's resurgence was part of a huge change in game plan and the return of Mr. Jobs replacing the likes of the lacklustre Gil Amelio. 

RIM, likewise, needs a shake-up. I'm not likely to buy RIM stock right now because I see it as undervalued. Fixing the Playbook over the coming months will only see the product improved to the point where it should have been on release. Meanwhile, the competitors keep moving.



fjnmusic said:


> Not 90% of the market, my friend, 90% of the profits. And 90% of the market for over $1000 computers. And 90% of the market for digital music players and tablets, while we're at it. And if we can't gloat a little right now, after wonderful RIM's 21% one day drop in share value, when do you suggest would be a better time to gloat?


Well, clearly you're not supposed to gloat right now. This stock disaster is meaningless. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. 

How about the year 2019?


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> Not 90% of the market, my friend, 90% of the profits. And 90% of the market for over $1000 computers. And 90% of the market for digital music players and tablets, while we're at it. And if we can't gloat a little right now, after wonderful RIM's 21% one day drop in share value, *when do you suggest would be a better time to gloat?*


Gloat over what? Did you help to develop the iPad?


----------



## groovetube

I'm a little puzzled over this need to gloat. I'm a technology geek, in that I love using gadgets, I use it to make money. I prefer apple stuff obviously, but whenever I encounter people who act like the ipad (or whatever) is their personal baby and need to gloat, I gotta wonder.

RIM needs a big shakeup. They are no where near the level of desperation apple was at, but they could get there if they don't don't act.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Gloat over what? Did you help to develop the iPad?


Over his belief that RIM was due for a major correction, not because Apple is doing better.


----------



## groovetube

oh if you read the post, and any of the other ones, it is indeed, about apple doing better.

I think it's pretty universal that people believe there needs to be change in RIM. And soon.


----------



## hayesk

Macfury said:


> Apple's resurgence was part of a huge change in game plan and the return of Mr. Jobs replacing the likes of the lacklustre Gil Amelio.


Gil Amelio was underrated. At the time, Apple's financial and management house was in tatters. Gil went in and cleaned house, and did a great job at it. He knew Apple had to take a lot of charges to the books as write-downs, and he know the public would only see it as losses. He knew he wasn't the one to lead Apple in the future, that's why he brought back SJ. 

Think of Gil as the demolition team before a major renovation. He did a great job at demo, and cleared the way for Jobs to come back and rebuild. Gil was necessary in Apple's rebuild.


----------



## screature

In looking for photos of Gil Amelio, as I couldn't remember what he looked like, I came across this one of the two Steves... too funny.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Apple's resurgence was part of a huge change in game plan and the return of Mr. Jobs replacing the likes of the lacklustre Gil Amelio.
> 
> RIM, likewise, needs a shake-up. I'm not likely to buy RIM stock right now because I see it as undervalued. Fixing the Playbook over the coming months will only see the product improved to the point where it should have been on release. Meanwhile, the competitors keep moving.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, clearly you're not supposed to gloat right now. This stock disaster is meaningless. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
> 
> How about the year 2019?


Like.


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Gloat over what? Did you help to develop the iPad?


Yes, in fact. I telepathically communicated the whole Apple game plan to Steve Jobs back in 1971, when I entered grade school. I suggested he could transform the phone industry someday if he could just devise a way to create some kind of blue box to make long distance phone calls for free. Surprised it took him so long to come up with the iPhone, quite frankly.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I'm a little puzzled over this need to gloat. I'm a technology geek, in that I love using gadgets, I use it to make money. I prefer apple stuff obviously, but whenever I encounter people who act like the ipad (or whatever) is their personal baby and need to gloat, I gotta wonder.
> 
> RIM needs a big shakeup. They are no where near the level of desperation apple was at, but they could get there if they don't don't act.


Relax guys. It's no deeper than a sense of satisfaction from picking the winning hockey team. Or political party. I hesitated when I could have purchased Apple shares at $78 and I've kicked myself ever since. I own no shares of anything, yet I marvel at the rise of Apple, Amazon and Netflix over the last two years, and the corresponding decline of Microsoft, RIM, Google, and Adobe over the same period from their glory days. Just turn your iPhone sideways in the Stocks app and see for yourself. RIM really needs a miracle at this point, but anything they do I suspect is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It's not that I want them to fail (they are Canadian after all) but they're not doing much to try to save themselves. Replacing the two CEO's ain't gonna do it.

It's kind of like...oh, I dunno...like reinventing the Liberal party. It's one thing to have a good product that people want, supported by good marketing, but people still have to actually want the product you're selling to buy it over any other competing product out there. Tablet competitors out there have about the same chance right now against the iPad as iPod competitors do, and nothing is competing against the iPod Touch (gateway drug for the iPhone). Steve Jobs may be arrogant, but he seems to right about what people want gadget-wise. RIM really needs to figure out what its vision is and capitalize on whatever advantages it has. Secure e-mail won't be enough anymore.


----------



## groovetube

Oh I'm quite relaxed thanks 

But the level of lunacy of those crying that RIM "needs a miracle at this point" is a the real joke. RIM still has a very formidable footprint in the market place. They simply missed their revenue targets, and are shaking the confidence of investors.

I recall the same level of cheering and yeehaws when the initial numbers for android were released, and the level of gloating was at a real high. I also recall being ridiculed when I said this wasn't over by far, and yes, they said google needed a 'miracle'.

Well it seems they got quite the miracle, and let's remember, google didn't have the footprint RIM does, and that's something you don't seem to grasp here. RIM is definitely at a cross roads. They have some great products, and good network, and from my perspective, a very strong developer community growing behind them (it seems even stronger than android to me...), it really is up to them to turn it around, and honestly, I don't see it as the uphill battle people think it is.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> But the level of lunacy of those crying that RIM "needs a miracle at this point" is a the real joke. RIM still has a very formidable footprint in the market place. They simply missed their revenue targets, and are shaking the confidence of investors.


RIM needs a miracle at this point. Its strategic alliances are a sad joke--two former greats falling together, hand in hand. It's missed its revenue targets for a very good reason--its products are failing to meet the needs of the consumers and this is understood by the investors. What magic technology are they planning to pull out of their ass in time to compete with the advanced research initiatives of their competitors? 

A few months from now they may have the Playbook working. Oh joy!


----------



## groovetube

the screaming continues. As I said, I've long ago in this industry, when it's too early to call.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> the screaming continues. As I said, I've long ago in this industry, when it's too early to call.


If it's too early for you to call I understand. We don't all have the same capabilities.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> Oh I'm quite relaxed thanks
> 
> But the level of lunacy of those crying that RIM "needs a miracle at this point" is a the real joke. RIM still has a very formidable footprint in the market place. They simply missed their revenue targets, and are shaking the confidence of investors.
> 
> I recall the same level of cheering and yeehaws when the initial numbers for android were released, and the level of gloating was at a real high. I also recall being ridiculed when I said this wasn't over by far, and yes, they said google needed a 'miracle'.
> 
> Well it seems they got quite the miracle, and let's remember, google didn't have the footprint RIM does, and that's something you don't seem to grasp here. RIM is definitely at a cross roads. They have some great products, and good network, and from my perspective, a very strong developer community growing behind them (it seems even stronger than android to me...), it really is up to them to turn it around, and honestly, I don't see it as the uphill battle people think it is.


It seems like you're deliberately shielding yourself from reality here, buddy. How far do you think RIM's investors will let this go before they jump ship? How far can the market value continue to drop? Regardless of how many devices are out there, a company needs to be profitable to stay alive. With no BB innovations coming and the PlayBook sales being mediocre at best (500,000 shipped, but how many sold?), you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to think RIM isn't in trouble. At least Google's Android system was still fresh when the numbers were low.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> With no BB innovations coming and the PlayBook sales being mediocre at best (500,000 shipped, but how many sold?), you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to think RIM isn't in trouble. At least Google's Android system was still fresh when the numbers were low.


Exactly. The investors knew how many were shipped, but this disappointing earnings statement tells them concretely that few were sold.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> It seems like you're deliberately shielding yourself from reality here, buddy. How far do you think RIM's investors will let this go before they jump ship? How far can the market value continue to drop? Regardless of how many devices are out there, a company needs to be profitable to stay alive. With no BB innovations coming and the PlayBook sales being mediocre at best (500,000 shipped, but how many sold?), you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to think RIM isn't in trouble. At least Google's Android system was still fresh when the numbers were low.


me shielding myself from reality?

I think what I have suggested was quite sane. 

Like I said, I was ridiculed endlessly when android was apparently a joke, and people wrote them off. Their sales were a joke at one time as well. Except, they didn't have the footprint RIM still has...

Anyone who knows anything about this and is involved on the platforms, would have a bit of a wait and see attitude to see where this goes.

I think you're no different than the fanbois tap dancing on the tables at macrumors/appleinsider....


----------



## Macfury

Use of the term "fanbois" = automatic post fail.


----------



## groovetube

yeah that's a little too truthful. I can see that.

I stand by the position that people just need to calm down, and see this for what it is. If you are jumping up and down and gloating at this point, before we really even know, where things will go, then you're an apple fanboi. Pure and simple. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but I'm sorry I'm not going to entertain such fanboi-ism as really credible opinions.

You can if you wish though...


----------



## WCraig

fjnmusic said:


> ... How far do you think RIM's investors will let this go before they jump ship? How far can the market value continue to drop? Regardless of how many devices are out there, a company needs to be profitable to stay alive.


This whole thread is pretty humorous--if you changed the dates and substituted "Apple" for "RIM" in all the articles, this is no different than the situation our favourite computer maker was in a few short years ago.

RIM has $3B of cash and had a $700 million profit in the last quarter. Right now, the stock market thinks their future prospects are poor compared to the competition. If they--like Apple--can pull a rabbit out of the hat, this will be seen as a buying opportunity that many will have missed.

Will they succeed? I don't know. They have a lot of the right bits available to them. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Craig


----------



## fjnmusic

WCraig said:


> This whole thread is pretty humorous--if you changed the dates and substituted "Apple" for "RIM" in all the articles, this is no different than the situation our favourite computer maker was in a few short years ago.
> 
> RIM has $3B of cash and had a $700 million profit in the last quarter. Right now, the stock market thinks their future prospects are poor compared to the competition. If they--like Apple--can pull a rabbit out of the hat, this will be seen as a buying opportunity that many will have missed.
> 
> Will they succeed? I don't know. They have a lot of the right bits available to them. It will be interesting to see what happens.
> 
> Craig


True dat, but that was fifteen years ago and Apple was humiliated enough to realize it needed a new vision and rehired the guy that started the company in the first place. RIM already has these people in its employ, and they are not what I would call visionaries—not enough to move the company forward at any rate. I know RIM has a large installed base, just like Microsoft, but if you do what you've always done, you'll be where you've always been. Apple's rejuvenation didn't come overnight either. Seriously, how long do you think RIM has left?


----------



## Macfury

WCraig said:


> This whole thread is pretty humorous--if you changed the dates and substituted "Apple" for "RIM" in all the articles, this is no different than the situation our favourite computer maker was in a few short years ago.
> 
> RIM has $3B of cash and had a $700 million profit in the last quarter. Right now, the stock market thinks their future prospects are poor compared to the competition. If they--like Apple--can pull a rabbit out of the hat, this will be seen as a buying opportunity that many will have missed.
> 
> Will they succeed? I don't know. They have a lot of the right bits available to them. It will be interesting to see what happens.
> 
> Craig


I remember Nortel hoping to develop some sort of switching technology that would pull it out of a hole, but these things rarely materialize.

The Blackberry is part of a culture of goodwill that RIM is squandering here.

When Apple began to show disdain for the customer, I bought a Power Computing PowerTower clone instead of their product. 

I believe it's pretty much dependent on whether RIM can develop and market some great technology fast. And fast isn't what they're about these days.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> It seems like you're deliberately shielding yourself from reality here, buddy. How far do you think RIM's investors will let this go before they jump ship? How far can the market value continue to drop? Regardless of how many devices are out there,* a company needs to be profitable to stay alive*. With no BB innovations coming and the PlayBook sales being mediocre at best (500,000 shipped, but how many sold?), you'd have to be deliberately obtuse to think RIM isn't in trouble. At least Google's Android system was still fresh when the numbers were low.


Well they still are profitable at this point.... just a shadow of their former selves however in terms of profit. They definitely need to get new product coming down the pipe though for them to be able to rebound.

Their financial fundamentals are still strong though:

P/E Ratio (TTM)	4.4x
EPS (TTM)	6.19
Beta	1.77

And they have a $14B market cap even after the tumble. If I was investing in them I would be shorting them now as I think the shares are probably going to continue to decline for at least the next 2 to 3 quarters. If they don't start showing some signs of development in terms of product in that time frame the bleeding will continue.

They are definitely in trouble and they obviously know it... how well they can respond to the situation in terms of product development is what will make or break the company. Laying off staff and closing facilities is a desperation move to stop the short to midterm bleeding in terms of the bottom line but it isn't going to save them. Product and timely release to market is what will save them.


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> True dat, but that was fifteen years ago and Apple was humiliated enough to realize it needed a new vision and rehired the guy that started the company in the first place. RIM already has these people in its employ, and they are not what I would call visionaries—not enough to move the company forward at any rate. I know RIM has a large installed base, just like Microsoft, but if you do what you've always done, you'll be where you've always been. Apple's rejuvenation didn't come overnight either. *Seriously, how long do you think RIM has left?*


No one knows... it is a betting game, but it's in their own hands....


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> No one knows... it is a betting game, but it's in their own hands....


exactly. They are still pretty in the game currently. People are far too quick to write them off.

I think in about 6 months to a year we'll have a pretty good idea.


----------



## Mckitrick

RIM has at least 2 Billion in cash right now. At their current burn rate (pre-layoffs) they can run for quite some time. There's about 8 devices launching later this year some of which will likely rely on the QNX low-level OS (which is a great OS) but may still be shackled by their application layer which is just awful. As for "visionaries" there are plenty at RIM. The problem is that only one guy's vision is really followed and until he is manipulated to change his mind (or shown that he's wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt) the direction does not change.

Behind closed doors, RIM has fostered a society of fear which is compounded by mismanagement and they've been successful thus far despite themselves many many times over the years.

As mentioned by others, it's a betting game. If the upcoming products are good, leveraged with a loyal customer base, RIM can come back very strong. The problem is that it's going to take some time for those products to arrive and who knows what will happen in the next four months wrt competition.

The engineering talent pool at RIM is absolutely amazing. The brains on the engineering side of the house are truly second-to-none. The brains managing those brains? Not so good. It's not even their fault, the highest levels of the company scare the crap out of those below them and that cripples any sort of real dialogue. Despite this, they've been successful despite themselves. It can happen again because it's happened so many times before.

8 Devices - Marvell CFO: Company Providing Chips For New BlackBerrys - WSJ.com

An interesting insight - RIM: The inmates have taken over the asylum | Monday Note

RIM has great people (I know many of them) and for the sake of those folks I'd hate to see it bite the dust but how they've managed to stay afloat so long with such bad leadership astounds me.


----------



## jimbotelecom

^^^^^^

The monday note article is telling. Balsillie has come off sounding as if he's drug induced for well over a year. I've never met the guy but I have a good friend in the telecom industry who is one of the best marketers in this country and he rarely speaks negatively of anyone.
He told me Balsillie is an a sshole. You need a healthy ego to get through the grind effectively, so I don't see that as the issue. Maybe the money has just gone to his head. Who knows?

When I compare and contrast Terry Matthews with Balsillie, I know who I'd prefer to work with.


----------



## ehMax

A new ad from Apple on the iPad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFFkK2SmPg4

But hey.... Playbook plays "Flash......ahhhhhhh"  :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

ehMax said:


> But hey.... Playbook plays "Flash......ahhhhhhh"  :lmao:


Ouch! You're not supposed to say anything for another six months, EhMax. Only then will we be able to identify the desperate trouble RIM is in today.


----------



## groovetube

macfury, if you want to be a 3 year old go somewhere else.

back on topic...

Unfortunately for blackberry, just about every other tablet also plays flash just great. Focusing on that is not a good strategy.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> macfury, if you want to be a 3 year old go somewhere else.
> 
> back on topic...
> 
> Unfortunately for blackberry, just about every other tablet also plays flash just great. Focusing on that is not a good strategy.


OK, groove, which of Blackberry's upcoming new devices do you think are going to be the game changer?


----------



## groovetube

they don't need, a game changer. Apple did.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> they don't need, a game changer. Apple did.


They just need the Blackberry and the Playbook?


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> Now, now--just because the Playbook is a loser and people are dumping RIM shares in droves, doesn't mean that there won;t be a Playbook in every businessperson's hand, just waiting for the glorious moment when it sends e-mail!
> 
> I believe someone here said so.


LMAO. The reason I started this thread. :lmao: But it can play flash, :clap:


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> sure, you speak the obvious, but it isn;t like a company hasn't done this before. Microsoft's earning have been way down and they aren't going anywhere. That's not to say they won't continue down a bad path, it's theirs to turn around.
> 
> But I don't understand the level of glee and hand clapping of the fanbois because RIM has been paying for some bad moves and marketing. AT some of the other mac forums, they're just tap dancing on the table. It's what I hate about apple lovers. Really.
> 
> Believe me. No one benefits from apple being 90% of the market.


I agree. I want RIM to succeed. I take no glory in seeing them fail, I just get puzzled on how they are releasing their product line up.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> LMAO. The reason I started this thread. :lmao: But it can play flash, :clap:


Hey--give it six months! Don't underestimate the power of watching YouTube funnies during a power lunch.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> I agree. I want RIM to succeed. I take no glory in seeing them fail, I just get puzzled on how they are releasing their product line up.


Same here. It's frustrating watching this sort of fumbling when the Ontario tech sector depends so heavily on this.


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> I agree. I want RIM to succeed. I take no glory in seeing them fail, I just get puzzled on how they are releasing their product line up.


ignore the court jester.

A lot of people are puzzled for sure, the playbook isn't a bad product, and from my perspective the developers are lining up behind it. If they didn't have the hold on the market that they have now, they'd be dead for sure. However, look at android, it didn't have much in the way of apps at all when they came out, everybody considered them a laughing stock, I recall the endless laughing. Now both apple and blackberry are keeping a close on on them.

As for flash, as I said long ago, that's becoming less, and less an issue. Anyone who knows the language and the platform really well would know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> A lot of people are puzzled for sure, the playbook isn't a bad product...


It's a bad product.


----------



## groovetube

No, it isn't, it was badly handled. If you had one, you know this.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> No, it isn't, it was badly handled. If you had one, you know this.


You just happen to like it. I respect your right to hold that opinion. I tested and rejected it.

They're feeling the love in Great Britain now:

Review: RIM BlackBerry PlayBook: welcome to Soviet App Store! | Technology | guardian.co.uk


----------



## groovetube

when the ipad first came out, it took some time for there to be as many apps as there are now. Same for Android. Android took even longer.

Whenever someone bleats about the lack of apps like a sheep, you kinda get the the feeling their just parroting blogs and opinions of others.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> when the ipad first came out, it took some time for there to be as many apps as there are now. Same for Android. Android took even longer.
> 
> Whenever someone bleats about the lack of apps like a sheep, you kinda get the the feeling their just parroting blogs and opinions of others.


I'm not reading about the lack of Apps, but the limitation of the hardware as well.


----------



## groovetube

the hardware is just fine. It's plenty of other issues that make this not ready for prime time.


----------



## hayesk

groovetube said:


> when the ipad first came out, it took some time for there to be as many apps as there are now. Same for Android. Android took even longer.
> 
> Whenever someone bleats about the lack of apps like a sheep, you kinda get the the feeling their just parroting blogs and opinions of others.


When the iPad came out, many developers had announced iPad apps coming, and they delivered. The Android still has a lack of quality apps. If I bought an Android a year ago, I'd be plenty upset today. I don't think that's sheep like at all. The apps didn't come.

The Playbook shipped with a camera, but no software to use it! It has no email and calendar and they call it a feature! Sorry, but it's a bad product. Their selling point is watching a movie and listening to music at the same time as playing a game. What? I can't physically do that. It's irrelevant. It's a bad product. Period. One day, it may be a good product. We'll give it a good review then.


----------



## groovetube

I'm seeing a lot of devs talking about the apps they're developing etc. as we speak.
blackberry is hampered by the new OS, but that's part of their botched rollout.

And honeycomb is still pretty recent in the scheme of things.

But I certainly don't disagree that apple is miles ahead in the game.


----------



## dallan

I have a few friends who purchased the Blackberry Playbook, and they swear by it! I think that RIM's marketing for the product was just not there from the outset, and that's what has sunk this commodity! Not to mention the poor press that preceded the launch of the tablet, which coloured public opinion before they had a chance to even see it. The whole notion that you couldn't get email from the tablet unless you own a Blackberry was erroneous. I want RIM to succeed, they are an important (THE important) player in the Canadian tech sector. 

Apple needs the competition that Research in Motion provides.


----------



## groovetube

you blaspheme!


----------



## fjnmusic

dallan said:


> I have a few friends who purchased the Blackberry Playbook, and they swear by it! I think that RIM's marketing for the product was just not there from the outset, and that's what has sunk this commodity! Not to mention the poor press that preceded the launch of the tablet, which coloured public opinion before they had a chance to even see it. The whole notion that you couldn't get email from the tablet unless you own a Blackberry was erroneous. I want RIM to succeed, they are an important (THE important) player in the Canadian tech sector.
> 
> Apple needs the competition that Research in Motion provides.


You sure about this? Everything I've read so far, including from RIM itself, suggests that this PlayBook doesn't do much, including e-mail, contacts, and calendar, unless tethered to a Blackberry. If that's true, then no amount of marketing is going to make up for a design flaw.


----------



## groovetube

yeah that's what you -read-.Though compared to an ipad at this point, the ipad is miles ahead of it. But then so was the iphone relative to android etc. It just isn't an indicator of success or flop. Funny thing, my nieces and nephew all have blackberries, I noticed lately that a lot of young people have them. BBM they tell me, and they love the apps too. They said apparently most of their friends have ditched the iphone for blackberrys, cheaper and they prefer it. I found out a couple of them have playbooks and love them.

A small anecdote. blackberry has some real challenges ahead. As someone mentioned, they have plenty of money, and a real hold on the market to run with, should they choose to, wise up


----------



## dallan

Yes, they can do email, but the catch is that it has to be 'online', rather than POP, unless you have a Blackberry. That's the catch.


----------



## Joker Eh

You know news like this would not take long with their share price dropping.

RIM Takeover Beckons Microsoft With Cheapest Multiple: Real M&A - Bloomberg

Note: RIM share up 9% on this news.


----------



## groovetube

M$ has ideas of taking over several, like nokia for instance


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> M$ has ideas of taking over several, like nokia for instance


They can pick their poison I guess. I would choose RIM if I were Ballmer.


----------



## groovetube

Really?

I'd say samsung is the real jewel Here. Btw typing on an iPad currently. Playbook is next I'll be able to do a much more in depth comparison rather just reading a blog


----------



## fjnmusic

Joker Eh said:


> You know news like this would not take long with their share price dropping.
> 
> RIM Takeover Beckons Microsoft With Cheapest Multiple: Real M&A - Bloomberg
> 
> Note: RIM share up 9% on this news.


Talk about a back-handed compliment. It's like being rescued from the snake pit by wolves.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> Really?
> 
> I'd say samsung is the real jewel Here. Btw typing on an iPad currently. Playbook is next I'll be able to do a much more in depth comparison rather just reading a blog


Samsung has got its own problems, Apple copy cat. Maybe Apple picks up RIM for its patents on security, just a thought.

I look forward to your review of both.


----------



## groovetube

apple copy cat? They make the tech the apple stuff is based on. Why wouldn't they use their own tech to make killer products?

This whole copycat thing? So 1980s. When people start screaming that someone is copying a touchscreen with 2 buttons, you just stand back and laugh.


----------



## Joker Eh

If I were a writer of articles instead of code, I would have written this and would have been the first post in this thread.

RIM, You?re Done Here



> The Playbook is a beautiful, well-made device. But it is a year too late and far too confusing for the average consumer. Their biggest mistake? RIM failed to provide native email out of the box. That’s the long and the short of it. The biggest name in email couldn’t pull off email.


----------



## groovetube

the caterwauling about the mistakes RIM made in rushing this out is getting old. 

This is deja vu on the android offerings. Too little, too late, you're dead in the water, it's a joke, blah blah. I heard it all, the apple fanbois were tap dancing on the walls for months, and now they seem awfully quiet now that android has shown itself to be a real player next to apple. Suddenly the pouting has changed to. "well apple makes more profit than they do!".

Whatever.

My point here isn't that RIM -won't go down, though I personally think it's more unlikely than likely, it's it's too early too tell if they're done. It's seems to be an incredibly difficult concept for these "article writers" (*cough* hit magnet *cough*) to get.

I hope RIM kicks a little butt not only because they're canadian, but it's good for competition. Look at the pace apple is keeping, iphone 5s in september?

Cool!


----------



## Macfury

Adding "Cool" to your post doesn't make it any more credible. 

What possible competition could RIM challenge Apple with at this point?


----------



## groovetube

if you have to ask, perhaps this isn't the thread for you.

And obviously, "cool" was being excited to see a new iphone being released so quickly. Given I buy every version, and just spent almost a grand last night at the apple store on an ipad, talk to us about credibility.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> if you have to ask, perhaps this isn't the thread for you.


If you have no information to share, perhaps this is not the thread for you.



groovetube said:


> And obviously, "cool" was being excited to see a new iphone being released so quickly. Given I buy every version, and just spent almost a grand last night at the apple store on an ipad, talk to us about credibility.


You buy everything. You are credible as a consumer.


----------



## groovetube

I buy them, use them, compare them to the other devices, and develop things and test on them extensively.

No, not as a consumer genius.


----------



## Script Kiddie

For how many years were the analysts predicting the demise of Apple? 
Many years: from about 1996 - 2003, roughly like that?
Something to think about before we all decide "its over".


----------



## groovetube

I think I did sort of hint at at, but people got offended and macfury seemed quite upset by the suggestion it may be a little early to call.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I think I did sort of hint at at, but people got offended and macfury seemed quite upset by the suggestion it may be a little early to call.


I'm just surprised that you're willing to admit that you don't have the expertise to call it yet


----------



## groovetube

you're surprised? Really?

The truth is, having been in the industry for a lot of years now, I have seen a lot opinions come and go, generally the ones most vocal, probably about 9 out of 10, tend to know nothing. They read it on a blog somewhere, or they think that because thy read some reports or similar that suddenly, they know where things are going! Like the flash issue, the screaming gets to a feverish pitch. Someone sent me a link the other day, it was an opinion piece on how flash was evil, and would fade into obscurity in a few years.

That was 1999.

As someone who works in this industry, I've learned a long time ago, and really this goes for anything really, to try and take what the screaming multitudes of know-it-alls, with a bit of a grain of salt. The ones I consider the most knowledgeable, tend to be the ones who will readily admit, when they don't know something. A bit of a shocking concept perhaps for you.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you're surprised? Really?
> 
> The truth is, having been in the industry for a lot of years now, I have seen a lot opinions come and go, generally the ones most vocal, probably about 9 out of 10, tend to know nothing. They read it on a blog somewhere, or they think that because thy read some reports or similar that suddenly, they know where things are going! Like the flash issue, the screaming gets to a feverish pitch. Someone sent me a link the other day, it was an opinion piece on how flash was evil, and would fade into obscurity in a few years.
> 
> That was 1999.
> 
> As someone who works in this industry, I've learned a long time ago, and really this goes for anything really, to try and take what the screaming multitudes of know-it-alls, with a bit of a grain of salt. The ones I consider the most knowledgeable, tend to be the ones who will readily admit, when they don't know something. A bit of a shocking concept perhaps for you.


Yes. I recently saw an article saying that the world would be unbearably hot today if we didn't cut greenhouse gas emissions drastically in 1998.


----------



## groovetube

so?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> so?


You saw an article from the past about Flash that was wrong. I don't know why you brought it up, but I thought I would offer one of my own.


----------



## groovetube

very good macfury. I think you might be catching on here.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> The ones I consider the most knowledgeable, tend to be the ones who will readily admit, when they don't know something. A bit of a shocking concept perhaps for you.


I readily admit I don't know something. And both Flash and RIM are dying.


----------



## groovetube

yeah I read that about Apple too. There a whole lotta people pretty damn sure about it too. And it was far, far more dire for Apple way back when.

So, be sure about it all you like, but the truth is, you haven't any idea either.

period.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> yeah I read that about Apple too. There a whole lotta people pretty damn sure about it too. And it was far, far more dire for Apple way back when.
> 
> So, be sure about it all you like, but the truth is, you haven't any idea either.
> 
> period.


Perhaps. But a big difference between Apple and, say, RIM, is that Apple was dying after Steve Jobs was removed from it. He was the visionary and the marketeer, and would never have agreed to some of the experiments Apple was trying in the 90's because they were sub-par. Apple computers were also looking more llike generic beige box PC's at the time with rather cryptic-geek names—I owned a PowerPC 5200/75 for example—which went nowhere as far as differentiating Apple as producing a superior brand. Quality control was missing.

What Steve and his arrogant perfectionist manner did was bring that snob factor—or differentiation—to Apple products. And given their increasing success with product after product over the past ten years, the strategy seems to be working. Not so for RIM, because the thing that made RIM so popular initially—BBM and secure e-mail, along with button keyboards and some kinda-sorta-looks like the internet displays—are not really unique anymore. One could say the same of Android. The new products are either derivative of their past models or derivative of something Apple designed (or purchased from other designers—whatever).

The thing that's missing is true innovation, and I'm not sure they ever really had that. The original RIM creators are still running the show, so who is supposed to replace them? They have no mythical Steve Jobs figure that they can bring back to fix the thing, so really this is just a death spiral now. A slow death spiral, but a death spiral nontheless.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> very good macfury. I think you might be catching on here.


Yes. Some people have been proved by history to not know what they are talking about. Some admit that they need more time to make a pronouncement. I am merely correct.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps. But a big difference between Apple and, say, RIM, is that Apple was dying after Steve Jobs was removed from it. He was the visionary and the marketeer, and would never have agreed to some of the experiments Apple was trying in the 90's because they were sub-par. Apple computers were also looking more llike generic beige box PC's at the time with rather cryptic-geek names—I owned a PowerPC 5200/75 for example—which went nowhere as far as differentiating Apple as producing a superior brand. Quality control was missing.
> 
> What Steve and his arrogant perfectionist manner did was bring that snob factor—or differentiation—to Apple products. And given their increasing success with product after product over the past ten years, the strategy seems to be working. Not so for RIM, because the thing that made RIM so popular initially—BBM and secure e-mail, along with button keyboards and some kinda-sorta-looks like the internet displays—are not really unique anymore. One could say the same of Android. The new products are either derivative of their past models or derivative of something Apple designed (or purchased from other designers—whatever).
> 
> The thing that's missing is true innovation, and I'm not sure they ever really had that. The original RIM creators are still running the show, so who is supposed to replace them? They have no mythical Steve Jobs figure that they can bring back to fix the thing, so really this is just a death spiral now. A slow death spiral, but a death spiral nontheless.


Yes, this is true. Any reasonable analysis of Apple's situation shows why the company was able to save itself. RIM has no ace in the hole. 

Wait six months and others will agree with you as well.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps. But a big difference between Apple and, say, RIM, is that Apple was dying after Steve Jobs was removed from it. He was the visionary and the marketeer, and would never have agreed to some of the experiments Apple was trying in the 90's because they were sub-par. Apple computers were also looking more llike generic beige box PC's at the time with rather cryptic-geek names—I owned a PowerPC 5200/75 for example—which went nowhere as far as differentiating Apple as producing a superior brand. Quality control was missing.
> 
> What Steve and his arrogant perfectionist manner did was bring that snob factor—or differentiation—to Apple products. And given their increasing success with product after product over the past ten years, the strategy seems to be working. Not so for RIM, because the thing that made RIM so popular initially—BBM and secure e-mail, along with button keyboards and some kinda-sorta-looks like the internet displays—are not really unique anymore. One could say the same of Android. The new products are either derivative of their past models or derivative of something Apple designed (or purchased from other designers—whatever).
> 
> The thing that's missing is true innovation, and I'm not sure they ever really had that. The original RIM creators are still running the show, so who is supposed to replace them? They have no mythical Steve Jobs figure that they can bring back to fix the thing, so really this is just a death spiral now. A slow death spiral, but a death spiral nontheless.


you're not sure if they ever had that? See this is where the apple fanboi-ism rears it's ugly head. Of course they had it, they revolutionized the market despite your erroneous claims and dominated the market. Just as apple has. RIM still dominates in the corporate world, and will for a while. Are they in a death spiral? Not quite from my perspective. They have new products which were rolled out badly, and marketed terribly.

It really, could go either way.

As far as flash dying, there's no evidence of this at all. It's changing quite a bit though if you're following things closely though. Which to me is a very good thing.


----------



## iMatt

I guess I should preface this by saying I wish RIM well -- no gloating here.

But I want to chime in on the whole "look at beleaguered Apple back in the mid-to-late-90s" argument. 

Apple started on its way out of the woods with a home run product, despite being mired in a very bad place software-wise: the original iMac. But that wasn't nearly enough, there was also a need for a long-term strategy. 

That was the "digital hub." 

Apple was in truly terrible shape back in 1996-97 or so, but it wasn't turned around by a random home-run product or two. Above all, Apple was saved by a smart strategy of taking relatively complicated geeky new tech and making it consumer-friendly -- MP3 music, online music, portable MP3 music, online movies and TV shows, smartphones, tablets, etc. It's a pretty simple strategy (consistent with the basic idea behind the original Mac, so it wasn't really new either), but incredibly effective when well-executed.

So... to those who say "well, maybe RIM is in trouble now, but just look at Apple back then":

Do you believe RIM has a solid big-picture strategy for ensuring its long-term future? Doesn't have to be a copy of the Apple strategy, in fact if it exists I'm sure it isn't that, but just a credible long-term strategy? Is there something that might seem a little flaky the way the "digital hub" sounded to a lot of us at first, but that contains the seeds of long-term success?

Do you believe the PlayBook will turn out to be a home-run product to help launch that strategy? If not, is there likely to be some other home run in the works?

Unfortunately, I don't think RIM does have any such strategy, and that the PlayBook is not going to turn out to be a home run. (But again, I do hope I'm wrong.)


----------



## groovetube

this speculation is sort of deja vu-ing for me. I recall the gloating on android.And, the total lack of strategy, and a consistent user experience. I said the same thing, hard to say how this will go. No Steve Jobs their either...

The difference, is RIM already has a big footprint in the market.

Their US/Britain revenues may be lower, but their emerging markets are soaring. As far as strategy, their certainly is one, but badly implemented so far.


----------



## adagio

I'm curious. What exactly is RIM's strategy? I haven't been able to figure it out lately.


----------



## iMatt

groovetube said:


> The difference, is RIM already has a big footprint in the market.


And as Microsoft shows, if you get big enough you can chug along for an awfully long time milking your core businesses even if you botch most attempts to find new growth opportunities... but RIM doesn't have that kind of footprint, so not as much time to get its act together.



groovetube said:


> Their US/Britain revenues may be lower, but their emerging markets are soaring. As far as strategy, their certainly is one, but badly implemented so far.


That doesn't answer the question of what RIM's strategy is, but in any case even if it's the smartest strategy in the world it doesn't mean much if they don't execute it well.


----------



## groovetube

iMatt said:


> And as Microsoft shows, if you get big enough you can chug along for an awfully long time milking your core businesses even if you botch most attempts to find new growth opportunities... but RIM doesn't have that kind of footprint, so not as much time to get its act together.
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't answer the question of what RIM's strategy is, but in any case even if it's the smartest strategy in the world it doesn't mean much if they don't execute it well.


granted. They don't have the kind of years Microsoft has to sit and milk their footprint.


----------



## Macfury

adagio said:


> I'm curious. What exactly is RIM's strategy? I haven't been able to figure it out lately.


Give it six months.


----------



## groovetube

worked splendidly for android.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> worked splendidly for android.


You keep saying that, but truth be told, Android is a failure as a business. Google makes no money from it. It's an enabler to get people to see more ads. The large variety of Android using phone makers collectively have a large market share, but not that great individually, since they still compete with each other, let alone iOS, Windows 7, RIM, Symbian, and any other OS's out there. If Motorola sells more Android phones, it isn't exactly a victory for Samsung and HTC. It's kind of like saying, hey look at how many countries speak English! Since Australia speaks English and their economy is doing well, Canada must be doing well too since we also speak English!

Beware of bulli***** alliances. You'll learn much more from what a company does with its market share in terms of how profitable its strategy is. Apple is diversified, makes its own hardware and software and now mindshare as well. Ask the next kid you see what kind of mp3 player he uses. That's your biggest clue for long term strategy, which Apple's been exploiting for over ten years: get the buy in from the kids, who will be the next generation of adult buyers.

RIM by contrast is still stuck trying to appeal to the same demographic they always have: business age people who aren't really concerned about Angry Birds or GarageBand; in short, people who have forgotten how to have fun. The people who will be retiring soon enough, but certainly not the movers and shakers. Much like Microsoft. You can survive reminiscing on your glory days fir a while, but eventually you become irrelevant.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> You keep saying that, but truth be told, Android is a failure as a business. Google makes no money from it. It's an enabler to get people to see more ads. The large variety of Android using phone makers collectively have a large market share, but not that great individually, since they still compete with each other, let alone iOS, Windows 7, RIM, Symbian, and any other OS's out there. If Motorola sells more Android phones, it isn't exactly a victory for Samsung and HTC. It's kind of like saying, hey look at how many countries speak English! Since Australia speaks English and their economy is doing well, Canada must be doing well too since we also speak English!
> 
> Beware of bulli***** alliances. You'll learn much more from what a company does with its market share in terms of how profitable its strategy is. Apple is diversified, makes its own hardware and software and now mindshare as well. Ask the next kid you see what kind of mp3 player he uses. That's your biggest clue for long term strategy, which Apple's been exploiting for over ten years: get the buy in from the kids, who will be the next generation of adult buyers.
> 
> RIM by contrast is still stuck trying to appeal to the same demographic they always have: business age people who aren't really concerned about Angry Birds or GarageBand; in short, people who have forgotten how to have fun. The people who will be retiring soon enough, but certainly not the movers and shakers. Much like Microsoft. You can survive reminiscing on your glory days fir a while, but eventually you become irrelevant.


the analogy to countries speaking english, makes absolutely no sense. So, it was a bad business model for all those OEM's to use windows, all competing against each other for business to sell PC boxes? Really? Seemed like a pretty popular thing... And then you go on to again, sound like an apple commercial. None of it really adds to whatever point you're trying to make. Flapping your wings about apple's bottom line doesn't have much to do with whether or not RIM is going to survive or not. We're not talking about wether RIM will do better or overtake Apple.

BB still has quite a following with young people as well, your assumption that only nearly retirees is nonsense. Complete, nonsense. Most of the older people I see seem to use el cheapo ohones that don't cost a whole lot. I don't too many using expensive smartphones and their data plans.

The one thing people seem to forget, is these devices have a very short life span, and people don't seem to have the platform loyalty that desktops have. Which is something that has well for apple. But it could work against them in the longer term. BB is finding this out the hard way right now.

And perhaps you should let google know about their "failure of a business model".
lol...


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> the analogy to countries speaking english, makes absolutely no sense. So, it was a bad business model for all those OEM's to use windows, all competing against each other for business to sell PC boxes? Really? Seemed like a pretty popular thing... And then you go on to again, sound like an apple commercial. None of it really adds to whatever point you're trying to make. Flapping your wings about apple's bottom line doesn't have much to do with whether or not RIM is going to survive or not. We're not talking about wether RIM will do better or overtake Apple.
> 
> BB still has quite a following with young people as well, your assumption that only nearly retirees is nonsense. Complete, nonsense. Most of the older people I see seem to use el cheapo ohones that don't cost a whole lot. I don't too many using expensive smartphones and their data plans.
> 
> The one thing people seem to forget, is these devices have a very short life span, and people don't seem to have the platform loyalty that desktops have. Which is something that has well for apple. But it could work against them in the longer term. BB is finding this out the hard way right now.
> 
> And perhaps you should let google know about their "failure of a business model".
> lol...


As a business model, it is a failure. It's like being famous but not rich. Shareholders want rich. As far as the kids today, there are still plenty using BB's certainly, but they're growing smaller compared to the number that now have iPhones I'm seeing, not to mention iPod Touches. Android phones have hardly made a ripple at my school. I teach teenage kids everyday, so I know what they're using. You?


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> As a business model, it is a failure. It's like being famous but not rich. Shareholders want rich. As far as the kids today, there are still plenty using BB's certainly, but they're growing smaller compared to the number that now have iPhones I'm seeing, not to mention iPod Touches. Android phones have hardly made a ripple at my school. I teach teenage kids everyday, so I know what they're using. You?


the best I can do LOL at that.

Go look at the real world...

Android vs. iPhone and iPad by the numbers | PCWorldme.net

just one article that says the same thing.

Android hardly making a ripple? LOL. It will possibly overtake apple.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Android hardly making a ripple? LOL. It will possibly overtake apple.


The article doesn't suggest that at all. It says that Apple will maintain a healthy lead for years to come--though it predicts great things for the Windows Phone.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The article doesn't suggest that at all. It says that Apple will maintain a healthy lead for years to come--though it predicts great things for the Windows Phone.


if you've been watching, this has been predicted backed up by numbers by many people.

But reading a couple blogs that you search to support your position playing the brainless forum game, doesn't get you real results.

Read the article, again. And do much more further research. It may require some more thought.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> the best I can do LOL at that.
> 
> Go look at the real world...
> 
> Android vs. iPhone and iPad by the numbers | PCWorldme.net
> 
> just one article that says the same thing.
> 
> Android hardly making a ripple? LOL. It will possibly overtake apple.


Lol right back at ya. I work in the real world, with real people and real teenagers. Everyday. I know what I see. And you? Or are somebody else's stats real enough for you?


----------



## groovetube

not sure just how to respond to this.

It seems the conversation might as well turn to arguing that the world is indeed round.

Ok, you rely on the handful of teenagers in your school, and those in the industry, the real stats as they come out. no biggie. Such is forum debates I guess.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> not sure just how to respond to this.
> 
> It seems the conversation might as well turn to arguing that the world is indeed round.
> 
> Ok, you rely on the handful of teenagers in your school, and those in the industry, the real stats as they come out. no biggie. Such is forum debates I guess.


Alright then, stats for stats: this one concerns the enterprise realm.

Apple Still Leading Android In Enterprise, Study Says | The Daily Feed | Minyanville.com


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Alright then, stats for stats: this one concerns the enterprise realm.
> 
> Apple Still Leading Android In Enterprise, Study Says | The Daily Feed | Minyanville.com


:clap: very good. So you cherry picked a segment to prove, well we're not sure. Though there's this...


> Although Good Technology expects Android to eventually overtake iOS devices at the corporate level, according to Intermedia's recent study, it has a long way to go


not sure if it will, but the platform has already shown the highest growth coming from laughable numbers to at times outselling the iphone.

keep digging 

But you can save yourself the trouble, and come to a conclusion many has already, that the platforms will be strong rivals, neither dominating the other, by much.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> :clap: very good. So you cherry picked a segment to prove, well we're not sure. Though there's this...
> 
> 
> not sure if it will, but the platform has already shown the highest growth coming from laughable numbers to at times outselling the iphone.
> 
> keep digging
> 
> But you can save yourself the trouble, and come to a conclusion many has already, that the platforms will be strong rivals, neither dominating the other, by much.


I have no problem with Android's success as a viable platform, the same way I have no problem with Microsoft's success at what it does. In fact, they have much in common, as both are basically derived from the Apple OSX (actually, System 5-9 GUI interface back in the 90's was copied and turned into Windows) and iOS concept. Inferior, of course, but they try at least. I'd like to see even one innovation that has come from either Android or Microsoft first, but sadly, innovation is not in their natures. No big whoop.

RIM is a different story. I like them for being Canadian if nothing else. They had a huge lead in terms of mindshare and then somehow they squandered it. If I knew what they should do next, I'd be better off to do it myself and pocket the profits, bud sadly, I think they've they're run the course on innovation. And one more thing: when you have your one chance to blow away the iPad with your much-prmoised Playbook, you have to BLOW AWAY the competition, not just be as good as for the same price. But the Playbook by all accounts is seriously hobbled, in that the main things the Blackberry has going for it, e-mail, calendars, and contacts, don't even work without also owning a Blackberry. That's a pretty serious thing to overlook, and you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. But Apple-haters will probably like it anyway. And it does do Flash. Sort of.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> I have no problem with Android's success as a viable platform, the same way I have no problem with Microsoft's success at what it does. In fact, they have much in common, as both are basically derived from the Apple OSX (actually, System 5-9 GUI interface back in the 90's was copied and turned into Windows) and iOS concept. Inferior, of course, but they try at least. I'd like to see even one innovation that has come from either Android or Microsoft first, but sadly, innovation is not in their natures. No big whoop.
> 
> RIM is a different story. I like them for being Canadian if nothing else. They had a huge lead in terms of mindshare and then somehow they squandered it. If I knew what they should do next, I'd be better off to do it myself and pocket the profits, bud sadly, I think they've they're run the course on innovation. And one more thing: when you have your one chance to blow away the iPad with your much-prmoised Playbook, you have to BLOW AWAY the competition, not just be as good as for the same price. But the Playbook by all accounts is seriously hobbled, in that the main things the Blackberry has going for it, e-mail, calendars, and contacts, don't even work without also owning a Blackberry. That's a pretty serious thing to overlook, and you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. But Apple-haters will probably like it anyway. And it does do Flash. Sort of.


I think we're just babbling here. Round 3 on the idiot debate! 

First off, apple didn't invent the icon thing with iOS. Second, have you even seem win mobile7? Drastically different. (surprisingly...)

As far as RIM and their playbook, they didn't need to blow away the ipad. They simply needed to put out a great product with a good rollout. They have a good product, hampered by a number of important things. You can go read about them. I'm surprised since you pretend to know a lot, that you've only mentioned what the blogs say.

RIM has a small window to save themselves. I have no illusions, they will not overtake apple at this point, but they need to get the new OS happening faster, and fix the botched rollout.

I think that may be a little more accurate plus or minus a couple thousand.


----------



## fjnmusic

I'm only going by what the RIM CEO's themselves have said. Lots of blustering with a less than impressive delivery. And consider how many companies including RIM project quite loudly all the things their new products are gonna do to blow away the competition. Yet there's one fruity company that says next to nothing until there's actually something to release. And most of the time that fruity company delivers in spades. Strategery, my friend, as Will Ferrel/George W would say. Better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.


----------



## groovetube

are you trying to sell apple products again?

dude I have piles of them already...


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> are you trying to sell apple products again?
> 
> dude I have piles of them already...


Stop assuming you think you know what I'm going to say and read the actual words for a change.


----------



## DR Hannon

On saturday, I went to the Brantford FutureShop to see a demo ipad 2. While I was there I decided to test out some of the other tablets. I am pretty biased toward apple and am very comfortable with IOS, that being said, if Honeycomb is the best that google can do they can keep it. I found it to be very frustrating, a very steep learning curve. The playbook on the other hand, I was able to get the hang of it very quickly. Not as polished as the ipad, but leaps and bounds ahead of android (tested xoom, tap and an acer I think). I took the playbook for a spin and was pleasantly surprised, the UI is very nice, took a few moments to get the basics. Though the sites that required flash made me want to gouge out my own eyeballs with a melon scoop. The unit stalled and crawled until I exited the browser. Even with that I found the browser very easy to use, much better than firefox on honeycomb. If it was priced closer to $250 with the screen size and other handicaps I would consider it. The price is the deal breaker for me. The os is great plus, to bad that it has started under a dark cloud.


----------



## groovetube

interesting though, that we've gotten flash to run surprisingly well on the playbook. Flash and air is actually pretty integrated into QNX. MAybe the wifi sucked hard in futureshop. I also wonder how updated flash was on the demo unit.

It's worked relatively well in android, there hasn't been much of a negative backlash as it was rolled out for some time now, as everyone predicted there would be. But I saw it run on a tab 10.1 and it was smooth as silk.

It's too bad RIM can't take advantage of the BB apps to port to the playbook like the iPad, which didn't start off with all that many ipad apps either, but being able to put your iphone apps on right away sure helped. Should be interesting to watch as QNX matures on the playbook. Great OS.


----------



## Adrian.

adagio said:


> I'm curious. What exactly is RIM's strategy? I haven't been able to figure it out lately.


Balsillie is preparing to sell the company (or at least his stock in it). 

RIM is strategically lowering it stock prices so Jim can buy back huge amounts at depressed prices. They will rebound after a few weeks (they have already) and RIM will announce talks for a merger/acquisition.

Lots of publicly traded companies do this. It definitely gets near a fine line drawn by financial regulators, but it is not illegal.


----------



## Puccasaurus

fjnmusic said:


> As a business model, it is a failure. It's like being famous but not rich. Shareholders want rich. As far as the kids today, there are still plenty using BB's certainly, but they're growing smaller compared to the number that now have iPhones I'm seeing, not to mention iPod Touches. Android phones have hardly made a ripple at my school. I teach teenage kids everyday, so I know what they're using. You?


The kids I teach seem equally divided between BB and iOS. The BB kids are hooked on BBM, but use their friends' iPhones to game. I think the tide is turning towards iOS devices though, slowly but surely. 

I know what would save RIM - installing a teacher "kill switch" on their phones so i could push a button and get some actual teaching done instead of telling kids to not check their messages during class XX)


----------



## groovetube

Adrian. said:


> Balsillie is preparing to sell the company (or at least his stock in it).
> 
> RIM is strategically lowering it stock prices so Jim can buy back huge amounts at depressed prices. They will rebound after a few weeks (they have already) and RIM will announce talks for a merger/acquisition.
> 
> Lots of publicly traded companies do this. It definitely gets near a fine line drawn by financial regulators, but it is not illegal.


that'd be a real game changer should this occur. Where do you get this information?


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> that'd be a real game changer should this occur. Where do you get this information?


Meh, I wouldn't pay much attention to that. Shouldn't be difficult to see if Jimbo is buying up RIM shares. I don't think this is artificial. Undermining the public's and analyst's confidence in your stock so you can buy it back at depressed prices? Nonsense. I doubt the stock will rebound to its former glory.

We're a supplier to RIM and although I'm not about to jeopardize my job, I will say their volumes have dropped off significantly.


----------



## WCraig

Adrian. said:


> Balsillie is preparing to sell the company (or at least his stock in it).
> 
> RIM is strategically lowering it stock prices so Jim can buy back huge amounts at depressed prices. They will rebound after a few weeks (they have already) and RIM will announce talks for a merger/acquisition.
> 
> Lots of publicly traded companies do this. It definitely gets near a fine line drawn by financial regulators, but it is not illegal.


Bu11****. Insider trading by a company's senior executives is tightly controlled and closely watched by the investment community. If either of the CEO's tries to do this secretly, they'll be going to jail...

Craig


----------



## groovetube

that's kinda what I'm thinking too.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Meh, I wouldn't pay much attention to that. Shouldn't be difficult to see if Jimbo is buying up RIM shares. I don't think this is artificial. Undermining the public's and analyst's confidence in your stock so you can buy it back at depressed prices? Nonsense. I doubt the stock will rebound to its former glory.
> 
> We're a supplier to RIM and although I'm not about to jeopardize my job, I will say their volumes have dropped off significantly.


yup, N.A. is falling. Their roadmap is stretched too far in the future IMO. QNX handhelds in 2012?


----------



## Macfury

Adrian. said:


> RIM is strategically lowering it stock prices so Jim can buy back huge amounts at depressed prices. They will rebound after a few weeks (they have already) and RIM will announce talks for a merger/acquisition.


And covering his tracks by stumbling in the marketplace?


----------



## fjnmusic

And the hits just keep on coming.

App developers defecting from RIM | FP Tech Desk | Financial Post


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> And the hits just keep on coming.
> 
> App developers defecting from RIM | FP Tech Desk | Financial Post





> “As soon as RIM brought in a touchscreen and mixed it with a thumbwheel, a keyboard and shortcut keys, it made it really difficult and expensive to develop across devices,” said Purple Forge CEO Brian Hurley. “What Apple scored big on is having a touch screen and a button and that’s it.”


Nope, Hurley! This is brilliant hardware. Ya gots it all wrong. Now get back to work and develop those apps for the Playbook!


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> And the hits just keep on coming.
> 
> App developers defecting from RIM | FP Tech Desk | Financial Post


I saw the very same headlines for android at one time. In fact, the news was far far more dire then for android if you were following things closely.


----------



## Adrian.

WCraig said:


> Bu11****. Insider trading by a company's senior executives is tightly controlled and closely watched by the investment community. If either of the CEO's tries to do this secretly, they'll be going to jail...
> 
> Craig


Meh,

It's not really insider trading. It has happened before in Canada (Stronach did it before he made a huge sell to ABC Industries in 2002). 

It isn't bad for the shareholders. Those quick enough to realise what is going on should be buying stock while he depresses it. When he sells (or even enters into merger/acquisition talks), the share price will balloon.


----------



## groovetube

hmm. It appears I'm not the only one who is thinking RIM isn't broken yet.
Has RIM met its Waterloo? Challenges, yes. Defeat, no - The Globe and Mail


----------



## SoyMac

Twisting in the wind?

RIM cancels planned 10" PlayBook.

Rumour says RIM is focusing its efforts instead, on an upcoming "Superphone".

Is this something to truly be excited about, or is "Superphone" actually an euphemism for "Vapourware"?

RIM appears to be living in interesting times.


----------



## groovetube

> There is no known release date for the BlackBerry ‘Superphone’ or a known codename. Of course these specs and information are not confirmed by RIM as yet and may change


check.


----------



## WCraig

Adrian. said:


> Meh,
> 
> It's not really insider trading. It has happened before in Canada (Stronach did it before he made a huge sell to ABC Industries in 2002).
> 
> It isn't bad for the shareholders. Those quick enough to realise what is going on should be buying stock while he depresses it. When he sells (or even enters into merger/acquisition talks), the share price will balloon.


When an "insider" (and the CEO is--without question--an insider) buys or sells stock, it is insider trading. They are only permitted to make trades in certain windows after the public release of material information. 

Go here to look up insider trades for RIM:
Research In Motion Ltd (RIM.TO) Insider Trading | Reuters.com

FYI--there are ZERO insider trades showing as I write this.

Note the news story here of a former RIM employee now facing charges for illegal insider trading:
Former R.I.M. Veep Charged with Insider Trading ? TheTelecomBlog.com

Craig


----------



## Macfury

WCraig said:


> When an "insider" (and the CEO is--without question--an insider) buys or sells stock, it is insider trading. They are only permitted to make trades in certain windows after the public release of material information.



That makes sense.


----------



## Joker Eh

*Senior RIM Exec writes an Open letter*

Open letter to BlackBerry bosses: Senior RIM exec tells all as company crumbles around him

RIM's response
RIM responds to open letter published by BGR

2 more letters
More letters to RIM; employees rally alongside anonymous exec


----------



## Puccasaurus

Really interesting. Whether it's real or not, someone at RIM should probably take it to heart. I came close to buying a Blackberry this year for the physical keyboard, but after actually using a BB and an iPhone I realized the touch keyboard is quite good and the BB just feels dated in terms of its UI and usability. I'm not the corporate type so maybe there is something I'm missing, but I can't see what's so great about Blackberry. I currently use a Nokia E71 and it's zippier and easier to use than a Blackberry.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> Open letter to BlackBerry bosses: Senior RIM exec tells all as company crumbles around him
> 
> RIM's response
> RIM responds to open letter published by BGR
> 
> 2 more letters
> More letters to RIM; employees rally alongside anonymous exec


RIM's response is pathetic.


----------



## groovetube

their response has been pathetic. A report back in January?

They simply do not have the luxury of time.


----------



## gmark2000

AGM result: business as usual. Why does RIM have seven new handsets launching soon? Why not one good one?


----------



## Macfury

gmark2000 said:


> AGM result: business as usual. Why does RIM have seven new handsets launching soon? Why not one good one?


Give it another six phones... errr...months.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Give it another six phones... errr...months.


You know, they could have a thinner phone with a much larger screen if they'd just get rid of those damn pushbuttons.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> You know, they could have a thinner phone with a much larger screen if they'd just get rid of those damn pushbuttons.


Hmm. What about Flash? Do the kids like that?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Hmm. What about Flash? Do the kids like that?


Doesn't make any difference to babies, apparently.


----------



## SINC

RIM CEOs admit BlackBerry maker faces challenges - CTV News


----------



## groovetube

they -admit- they have challenges?

Well that's, a start I guess...


----------



## CubaMark

*Seems the folks at RIM are a wee bit sensitive...*

*Premier not snubbing RIM after Apple tender*



> Nova Scotia's Premier is personally trying to reassure the makers of the BlackBerry that the province is not snubbing their Playbook after calling for tenders to possibly buy 40 iPads from Apple.
> 
> The province invested millions of dollars luring Research in Motionto the province and has cultivated a close relationship with senior executives at RIM.


(CBC)


----------



## groovetube

They need a better ad campaign. Now.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> You keep saying that, but truth be told, Android is a failure as a business. Google makes no money from it...


I saw this headline, and couldn't help thinking of the posters that keep saying this. And had a wee chuckle.
AppleInsider | Google posts record $9B in revenue as daily Android activations grow to 550K

Perhaps someone should tell google about their failure of a business. 

What were we talking about? Oh yeah. RIM being totally a goner


----------



## imnothng

groovetube said:


> They need a better ad campaign. Now.


Really eh.

I laugh every time I see the one where they are playing a bunch of stuff at the same time and they say, we can do all this at the same, why can't the others.

Well let me answer that for you RIM. It's because I don't need to be watching a movie while watching a movie, while playing a game while listening to music. Let me ask you RIM, if I do all that stuff at the same time, how long will the battery last me?

Admittedly there are a few times that I would like to switch back and forth faster between things, but really, I'd rather not have to keep it plugged all the time.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I saw this headline, and couldn't help thinking of the posters that keep saying this. And had a wee chuckle.
> AppleInsider | Google posts record $9B in revenue as daily Android activations grow to 550K
> 
> Perhaps someone should tell google about their failure of a business.
> 
> What were we talking about? Oh yeah. RIM being totally a goner


I stand by my words. Google makes no money off of Android directly. Zero. Nada. 97% of their profits cone from advertising. So indirectly, they are making a killing off of Android, just as they are making a killing from loading search results in favor of some businesses over others. It's a great strategy as long as people are willing to put up with ads. 

RIM, on the other hand, has no indirect revenue stream like Google does in the form of advertising. Like Apple, they are in the proprietary hardware/software business. What they are missing, however, is innovation and marketing. The big advantage they used to have, secure e-mail and BBM, is pretty much an anachronism in 2011, at least as far as innovation goes. As I've explained before, even secure e-mail is not that secure if the receiver decides to forward whatever they've received to whomever they choose. RIM needs new products that not only match the iPhone and iPad in capability and price but surpass them. That hasn't happened yet with the PlayBook or any of the BB smartphones nor does it seem likely anytime soon. Investors are keenly aware of this, hence the plummeting market value. 

You do realize that RIM, once worth about $140 per share, now sits at about $27 a share. You consider this a profitable business model? Google's glory days are likewise in the past, but at least it's on an upward trend. The charts are not hard to read.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> I stand by my words. Google makes no money off of Android directly. Zero. Nada. 97% of their profits cone from advertising. So indirectly, they are making a killing off of Android, just as they are making a killing from loading search results in favor of some businesses over others. It's a great strategy as long as people are willing to put up with ads.


You said Android was a failure at business. You couldn't have been more wrong...



fjnmusic said:


> RIM, on the other hand, has no indirect revenue stream like Google does in the form of advertising. Like Apple, they are in the proprietary hardware/software business. What they are missing, however, is innovation and marketing. The big advantage they used to have, secure e-mail and BBM, is pretty much an anachronism in 2011.


Tell that to all the major corporations that are still requiring and buying BBs for their organizations. Also tell that to the huge following of teenagers addicted to BBM.



fjnmusic said:


> They need new products that not only match the iPhone and iPad in capability and price but surpass them. That hasn't happened yet with the PlayBook or any of the BB smartphones nor does it seem likely anytime soon. Investors are keenly aware of this, hence the plummeting market value.


Yes they do. Their strong presence will help them survive until they do, IF they move quickly enough. My point this entire thread, which seems to be rocket science to some, is that it remans to be seen if RIM does it. They could very easily do it. Their new OS is GREAT. I like it much better than android.



fjnmusic said:


> You do realize that RIM, once worth about $140 per share, now sits at about $27 a share. You consider this a profitable business model? Google's glory days are likewise in the past, but at least it's on an upward trend. The charts are not hard to read.


Of course I realize it. But they wouldn't be the first company to plummet and nearly drop the ball...


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> You said Android was a failure at business. You couldn't have been more wrong...


The purpose of a business is to make a profit. Android does not make a profit. The money it makes is from a secondary avenue: advertising. I never said Google wasn't clever for monetizing what it does best, but what kind of business model is considered a success when it makes no profit on its own?




> Tell that to all the major corporations that are still requiring and buying BBs for their organizations. Also tell that to the huge following of teenagers addicted to BBM.


Teenagers are notorious for trying to get stuff for free, much like Android users. Rich teenagers get iPhones. I know of no teenagers that are able to play Angry Birds on their Blackberries yet.




> Yes they do. Their strong presence will help them survive until they do, IF they move quickly enough. My point this entire thread, which seems to be rocket science to some, is that it remans to be seen if RIM does it. They could very easily do it. Their new OS is GREAT. I like it much better than android.


Damning with faint praise. Oh well, I guess it's good to be better than somebody. But what I was talking about, which you fail to address, is innovation. Android doesn't have it and neither does RIM. In fact, the biggest advantage either of this companies have is that some people really hate Apple. Although they all probably still own an iPod.




> Of course I realize it. But they wouldn't be the first company to plummet and nearly drop the ball...


How far can the plummet before any kind of return to their former glory is impossible? Talk about a RIM job…


----------



## groovetube

wow. That post sounded like one peed off apple fanboi. Sorry.


fjnmusic said:


> The purpose of a business is to make a profit. Android does not make a profit. The money it makes is from a secondary avenue: advertising. I never said Google wasn't clever for monetizing what it does best, but what kind of business model is considered a success when it makes no profit on its own?


You mean it makes them money in other ways? Well! Aren't you gettin some business smarts! I suppose you think iTunes as a business was a failure for ipods since it existed mainly to support ipods for quite a while.






fjnmusic said:


> Teenagers are notorious for trying to get stuff for free, much like Android users. Rich teenagers get iPhones. I know of no teenagers that are able to play Angry Birds on their Blackberries yet.


Shows how much you know. They aren't interested in angry birds, they're interested in BBM.






fjnmusic said:


> Damning with faint praise. Oh well, I guess it's good to be better than somebody. But what I was talking about, which you fail to address, is innovation. Android doesn't have it and neither does RIM. In fact, the biggest advantage either of this companies have is that some people really hate Apple. Although they all probably still own an iPod.


Right RIM wouldn't know anything about innovation... Could you possibly, make a more ridiculous statement? Wake up. That's ludicrous. A real apple fan foolish statement.






fjnmusic said:


> How far can the plummet before any kind of return to their former glory is impossible? Talk about a RIM job…


I donno. Ask Apple.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> wow. That post sounded like one peed off apple fanboi... A real apple fan foolish statement.
> 
> I donno. Ask Apple.


There should be a rule on this forum, much like the 'Hitler' rule, that the first person to use the term fanboi automatically loses the argument.

Your responses have become rather predictable. All I need to do to predict your response is think of the opposite of what I would say and what do you know, you will say it. You are obviously quite content to stereotype my views regardless of what I say which is why I can not have much of a conversation with you. You are pretty close-minded on this subject. Oh well, I'll try one more time.

You will hopefully remember that when Apple was at its lowest it was also devoid of inspiration, which is when our friend Steve Jobs, the founder, was hired back. Steve had a vision, which is what the past 14 years have been about; realizing that vision. Does RIM have anyone like that waiting in the wings?


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> There should be a rule on this forum, much like the 'Hitler' rule, that the first person to use the term fanboi automatically loses the argument.
> 
> Your responses have become rather predictable. All I need to do to predict your response is think of the opposite of what I would say and what do you know, you will say it. You are obviously quite content to stereotype my views regardless of what I say which is why I can not have much of a conversation with you. You are pretty close-minded on this subject. Oh well, I'll try one more time.
> 
> You will hopefully remember that when Apple was at its lowest it was also devoid of inspiration, which is when our friend Steve Jobs, the founder, was hired back. Steve had a vision, which is what the past 14 years have been about; realizing that vision. Does RIM have anyone like that waiting in the wings?


I'm not calling you a fanboi. I don't think you are. But some of the lines you push out are ones I hear from the fanbois. 

You said google's android was a failure as a business. Clearly, that's pretty dumb. Only a real apple fan would believe such nonsense. That's why I said it.

Of course my responses are predictable! They make more sense than the delusions you spit out.

No one questions apple's innovation, and clear lead in things. But to say things like google android is a failure, and RIM doesn't innovate? C'mon. There are problems with RIM, big problems, but RIM would not be where they are if they didn't innovate. Look at their new OS. More innovation. I don't know if it'll be enough to save them though.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> There should be a rule on this forum, much like the 'Hitler' rule, that the first person to use the term fanboi automatically loses the argument.


It's already in place. "Fanboy" should be a loss, but "fanboi" an automatic disqualification and one-week vacation from the site.


----------



## dona83

groovetube said:


> Shows how much you know. They aren't interested in angry birds, they're interested in BBM.


This. I've never quite understood the fascination in BBM though, other than it being an always on MSN Messenger type thing. I've never had an issue with plain old text messaging. Who knows, maybe iMessage will change my perspective.

I think Blackberries will still be the defacto standard for many corporations. and they are also an addiction for my brother and sister who swear by their Blackberries, as with many teenagers. With that, do they really need to innovate? You can have planned obsolescence with iPhones with little backclash, but Blackberry users could backclash if you dramatically change the fundamentals of how they work. I say keep rolling with the software, maybe some minor changes to make the OS look more modern. 

Let's not forget throwing millions into a failed product aka the Playbook.


----------



## groovetube

dona83 said:


> This. I've never quite understood the fascination in BBM though, other than it being an always on MSN Messenger type thing. I've never had an issue with plain old text messaging. Who knows, maybe iMessage will change my perspective.
> 
> I think Blackberries will still be the defacto standard for many corporations. and they are also an addiction for my brother and sister who swear by their Blackberries, as with many teenagers. With that, do they really need to innovate? You can have planned obsolescence with iPhones with little backclash, but Blackberry users could backclash if you dramatically change the fundamentals of how they work. I say keep rolling with the software, maybe some minor changes to make the OS look more modern.
> 
> Let's not forget throwing millions into a failed product aka the Playbook.


I don't really either, but my nieces and nephews assure me that if I actually used it "I get it". I'm happy with regular text messaging though.

The playbook, well the jury is out on that yet. Android tablets didn't exactly take off either. It isn't a bad thing that apple is well in the lead, but also, it isn;t a bad thing the competition is heating things enough that we'll get a supercharged ipad2 this fall to heat things up too 

Consumers win all round.


----------



## Macfury

Give it five months.


----------



## fjnmusic

dona83 said:


> This. I've never quite understood the fascination in BBM though, other than it being an always on MSN Messenger type thing. I've never had an issue with plain old text messaging. Who knows, maybe iMessage will change my perspective.
> 
> I think Blackberries will still be the defacto standard for many corporations. and they are also an addiction for my brother and sister who swear by their Blackberries, as with many teenagers. With that, do they really need to innovate? You can have planned obsolescence with iPhones with little backclash, but Blackberry users could backclash if you dramatically change the fundamentals of how they work. I say keep rolling with the software, maybe some minor changes to make the OS look more modern.
> 
> Let's not forget throwing millions into a failed product aka the Playbook.


True dis. It's kind of like why so many PC users still prefer the 10 year old system called Windows XP rather than try to adapt and change to some of the improvements that have cropped up in the last decade. I find it hard to even use the term innovative in the same sentence as either Windows or Blackberry.


----------



## groovetube

windows perhaps. But blackberry was of course innovative, how did you think they got to where they did? And clearly, the same reason why they've fallen from grace.

Speaking of which, it was news today they're cutting 2000 jobs. Not good news for a Canadian company.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> windows perhaps. But blackberry was of course innovative, how did you think they got to where they did? And clearly, the same reason why they've fallen from grace.
> 
> Speaking of which, it was news today they're cutting 2000 jobs. Not good news for a Canadian company.


Not good news for any company. For what it's worth, I can now speak from experience: my wife was the proud owner of a Blackberry Curve.....for one day. After endless frustration rifling through submenus, dealing with teeny tiny buttons, particularly for numbers, getting on the phone (landline) for half an hour to get the cell function operational, which seemed to work when we left the store, and then learning from customer support at Rogers that we'd have to pay $5 a month for a data plan that would allow her to use her home WiFi, she decided no thanks. The BB offered no advantage whatsoever and even texting was turning out to be a bag of hurt. So she returned it, went to the Apple Store and got herself a nice white iPhone 4. 

I have no idea how RIM is going to keep up, and the funny thing is, the BB Curve was considered to be a decent smartphone too.


----------



## groovetube

so, you think because your wife disliked the curve that makes it a slam dunk? What about the millions using it who prefer the "tiny buttons"? I could tell you the story about my niece who had even worse problems with the iphone4, and after all her friends chided her into finally getting a BB like all of them and join them on BBM, she couldn't be happier. Does that make the iphone4 crappy? Probably not...

I'm not suggesting BB is doing great, but the story was, one person's experience. Of course having an apple fan rolling their eyes and sighing next to you saying 'you shoulda gotta iphone every ten minutes' probably didn't help either...


----------



## Macfury

Give it four months.


----------



## groovetube

she's had it for over 6 months. I'm not seeing any change in opinion.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Give it four months.


I presume you're talking about RIM, not GT's niece. Yes, it will be even harder to contact customer support when RIM disintegrates as a company. That was certainly going through my mind when you sign up for a three year term.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> I presume you're talking about RIM, not GT's niece. Yes, it will be even harder to contact customer support when RIM disintegrates as a company. That was certainly going through my mind when you sign up for a three year term.


Exactly. The original six-month grace period we were to afford RIM as it launched an incredible array of new products is fast eroding.


----------



## groovetube

It's interesting the differences in perspectives.

Truthfully, even though my house and office is crammed full of apple stuff, I'm not the least bit insecure that there are other platforms that offer great alternatives. In fact I feel much better about it given the level of competition it creates and the amazing products and services we're seeing as a result. One only needs to look at Microsoft to see what happens when one company gets to the overwhelming dominate position.

But it seems not everyone is that secure I guess.


----------



## Max

Does this inspire confidence, groove?


----------



## groovetube

That what I replied to this thread with.

I don't know max, if they can focus on better execution maybe, they have a chance at averting total collapse down the road. Truthfully, they're still selling huge worldwide, so they're a ways from that in any event.

My wife's organization laid off far more percentage wise the last year, and they're doing extremely well.


----------



## Macfury

I wish RIM well. Competition is great. They ain't offering it.


----------



## groovetube

There's a statement that illustrates you don't have the knowledge to even participate in this discussion.

Only a fool would think apple hasn't considered rim competition. Sorry.


----------



## Macfury

They have considered it and are eclipsing it.


----------



## groovetube

There. That's better. 

But I'm quite sure they more than simply 'considered' it. Especially in the corporate/business side of things. But you do like your pap fed to you on the interwebs don't you.


----------



## dona83

Could RIM sue Apple for iMessage? If RIM can't beat em, sue em.


----------



## jimbotelecom

dona83 said:


> Could RIM sue Apple for iMessage? If RIM can't beat em, sue em.


Nope...Apple bought the nortel patent. So long RIM.


----------



## groovetube

was it part of the consortium's list of patents?


----------



## dona83

jimbotelecom said:


> Nope...Apple bought the nortel patent. So long RIM.


So Apple could sue RIM for BBM then??


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> I wish RIM well. Competition is great. They ain't offering it.


And the saddest thing of all is that they are in total denial about the aspects of the "other platforms" that are better than what they have to offer. Their company culture helps to perpetuate this denial, according to the letter from the RIM employee to his bosses that was circulating about a week or two ago. To stay competitive you have to know your competition. At least Android device makers are smart enough to know a good model to copy when they see it. RIM……sorry, but e-mail and texting is so 2008. People want an internet that actually resembles the internet these days. And Apps are a great shortcut through submenus.


----------



## jimbotelecom

My understanding of the patent purchase is that there will be a truce called - a standoff.


----------



## groovetube

dona83 said:


> So Apple could sue RIM for BBM then??


only in the wildest apple fanbois dreams.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> And the saddest thing of all is that they are in total denial about the aspects of the "other platforms" that are better than what they have to offer. Their company culture helps to perpetuate this denial, according to the letter from the RIM employee to his bosses that was circulating about a week or two ago. To stay competitive you have to know your competition. At least Android device makers are smart enough to know a good model to copy when they see it. RIM……sorry, but e-mail and texting is so 2008. People want an internet that actually resembles the internet these days. And Apps are a great shortcut through submenus.


I donno, android was happening at the same time iOS was happening. In fact I thought Android was out of gate before iOS was wasn't it? (that should sufficiently ruffle some feathers lol...) So, who copied who?

email and texting is so 2008? Did I miss the memo? Did the other 200 million people miss that memo too?

har.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I donno, android was happening at the same time iOS was happening. In fact I thought Android was out of gate before iOS was wasn't it? (that should sufficiently ruffle some feathers lol...) So, who copied who?
> 
> email and texting is so 2008? Did I miss the memo? Did the other 200 million people miss that memo too?
> 
> har.


Yup, when e-mail and texting is really the _only_ thing you can do effectively. If you look at the early prototype Androids, they looked exactly like Blackberries. After the iPhone came out, their design changed quite quickly to look like iPhones. And no, Androids weren't released to sell to the public until after the iPhone. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)


----------



## groovetube

yeah because android google probably would have never even considered full screen with icons.

Google bought android in 2005 and was developing it long before the release of the iphone. Apple was quicker in getting the first full screen phone out the door.


----------



## hayesk

groovetube said:


> yeah because android google probably would have never even considered full screen with icons.
> 
> Google bought android in 2005 and was developing it long before the release of the iphone. Apple was quicker in getting the first full screen phone out the door.


To see what Android was considering before the iPhone, this is an early Android prototype. It sure looks a whole lot more like a BlackBerry than an iPhone.
Android phones as early as this fall? | Apple - CNET News


----------



## adagio

RIM has a problem

This article emphasizes RIM has a problem. They needed something special out the door... yesterday. Anyone who doesn't think this company is in serious trouble is deluding themselves. RIM is still a one trick pony. Their tablet is not selling. Apple can't make their iPads fast enough. The biggest rising middle class in the world, China, is clamouring for Apple products to the point they will go to ridiculous lengths to obtain them including smuggling and fake stores. How I'd love to see a Canadian company be in this position but it isn't happening and won't be anytime soon. Pity


----------



## Macfury

adagio said:


> This article emphasizes RIM has a problem. They needed something special out the door... yesterday. Anyone who doesn't think this company is in serious trouble is deluding themselves. RIM is still a one trick pony. Their tablet is not selling. Apple can't make their iPads fast enough. The biggest rising middle class in the world, China, is clamouring for Apple products to the point they will go to ridiculous lengths to obtain them including smuggling and fake stores. How I'd love to see a Canadian company be in this position but it isn't happening and won't be anytime soon. Pity


They're going to pull a rabbit out of a hat by the end of October I hear.


----------



## groovetube

hayesk said:


> To see what Android was considering before the iPhone, this is an early Android prototype. It sure looks a whole lot more like a BlackBerry than an iPhone.
> Android phones as early as this fall? | Apple - CNET News


sure. But blackberry was the one to beat at the time. But I think it's foolish to assume they never considered or planned anything different.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> They're going to pull a rabbit out of a hat by the end of October I hear.


Given that their worldwide sales are going up, I don't think they need to pull any rabbit out of the hat. They simply need to focus on better execution.


----------



## MannyP Design

fjnmusic said:


> Yup, when e-mail and texting is really the _only_ thing you can do effectively. If you look at the early prototype Androids, they looked exactly like Blackberries. After the iPhone came out, their design changed quite quickly to look like iPhones. And no, Androids weren't released to sell to the public until after the iPhone.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)


Speaking of design, don't you find it odd that the iPhone shares a lot of similarities to the Palm Pilot? :heybaby:


----------



## groovetube

oh you crap disturbin east coater you.


----------



## Puccasaurus

Macfury said:


> They're going to pull a rabbit out of a hat by the end of October I hear.


I heard it's a one-eared rabbit and you have to pair it with another one to get full rabbit functionality


----------



## fjnmusic

Puccasaurus said:


> I heard it's a one-eared rabbit and you have to pair it with another one to get full rabbit functionality


Nicely put.


----------



## Macfury

Puccasaurus said:


> I heard it's a one-eared rabbit and you have to pair it with another one to get full rabbit functionality


Is this this the same rabbit that impregnates four other rabbits in a flash---at the same time!!!


----------



## Max

I'm having lunch with my brother today. Tech-wise, we've been oil and water all these years. He rushed out to get the Playbook when it first came out and last time we met he pulled it out to show it off - very quickly explaining that the only downside was the lack of an email client. As loyal as I've been to Apple, he's been loyally anti-Apple - that is to say, anything but Apple. On his laptops and desktops he's done various flavours of Linux and Windows over the years but never the dreaded Jobsian product. He's gone through a couple of Blackberry devices and meanwhile I'm still on my first iPhone. Can't wait to discuss RIM's fortunes with him. I gave up on trying to convince him on Apple's OS and philosophy years ago - my protestations only hardened his resolve. Wish I had an iPad so that I could take it with me when I meet up with him. Thank goodness we have other, more mutual interests.


----------



## groovetube

The truth is max, I recall having the same conversations with a couple friends (macaholic one of them funny enough) and relishing in pointing out how apple was about to fade into obsolescence. It won't mean a damn thing, people are devoted to their BBs just as mac users were. It's a tough call right now to know if BB will indeed totally bite the dust, but currently their global sales are actually rising despite their woes in NA, and they have a shot at getting back in the game since they have such a loyal userbase particularly in business. I don't really understand the fierce loyalty to BB personally, but I see it a lot in young people, and business. That's what they have going for them.

lot of people cite Steve Jobs as being the saviour, sure, he was, for the company. But people forget that it was the loyal mac userbase that also, helped save apple. The same userbase I'm starting to hear complain about the 'consumerfication' of what we saw as a great creative platform.


----------



## Max

I don't disagree with any of that, groove. I think we as a species enjoy things like rivalry, competition, sport, the pleasure of watching the dual in the arena - and sometimes we like to amp up the differences between players so as to sharpen up the bloodsport aspect of it all.

I wish RIM all the best, really. They've don't terrific things for the K-W area and lots of smart people work out there. I also think there's plenty of room in the tech space for competing visions. All of that drives innovation, which we as consumers should be applauding.


----------



## groovetube

it'll be interesting to watch the next few years, I've said a few times, and it seems much to the chagrin of the happy apple fans tap dancing these days, this whole mobile thing, is far, far from over. And the landscape is going to look a lot different than we might think.


----------



## adagio

I know someone similar to Max's brother. She was totally into her BB and rabidly anti Apple, even to the point of refusing to buy an iPod. That's all changed. She won a iPad through a FB contest. It's a game changer for this person. A couple of weeks ago she sheepishly messaged me and admitted to stepping foot in an Apple store. She bought an iPhone. You could have picked me off the floor I was in so much shock. This lady loves her iPhone and isn't afraid now of telling one and all how great it is. I think an iMac is next on her shopping list. I can't believe the complete turnaround with this person from frothing at the mouth anti Apple to a fan telling the whole world how great Apple products are. I know she's convinced a few others in our FB group to dump their BB's in the last week and get iPhones. That's how it goes. Word of mouth is extremely powerful so now RIM hasn't just lost one customer but 5 more.


----------



## groovetube

There are certainly lots of anecdotes to go around. I know some that involves some migrating to iphones, I know my neice had terrible experiences with the iphone 4 went through 2 replacements, and now has convinced many of her friends to ditch the iphone for the BB, which seems popular amongst the younger ones. I know a few people who also ditched the iphone for android based ones.

People don't seem as loyal I guess to any of them. Including apple.


----------



## Joker Eh

I agree with you groove amongst young girls BB is everything, they could care less about games. they want that BBM, iMessage won't make a difference with them when it comes out because it would require the whole group of friends to change.

RIM is running around confused right now, all the have to do is take a deep breath and focus, make 1 phone, make 1 tablet, 1 mobile os. Stop building 10 different models of phones, you are watering down the product image. Apple focuses on 1 phone, 1 tablet, 1 mobile os. Google just builds 1 OS - Andriod.

Just looked at RIM website and the first thing that comes up is something called Bridge to merry the phone and playbook. Huh??? Are they not putting the email client on the playbook? or did they do that already?

Another thing, where on the Playbook does it say "Playbook"?? It says Blackberry, the marketing people have to give their head a shake here what is this Blackberry thing?


----------



## groovetube

yep


----------



## iMatt

groovetube said:


> The truth is max, I recall having the same conversations with a couple friends (macaholic one of them funny enough) and relishing in pointing out how apple was about to fade into obsolescence. It won't mean a damn thing, people are devoted to their BBs just as mac users were. It's a tough call right now to know if BB will indeed totally bite the dust, but currently their global sales are actually rising despite their woes in NA, and they have a shot at getting back in the game since they have such a loyal userbase particularly in business. I don't really understand the fierce loyalty to BB personally, but I see it a lot in young people, and business. That's what they have going for them.
> 
> lot of people cite Steve Jobs as being the saviour, sure, he was, for the company. But people forget that it was the loyal mac userbase that also, helped save apple. The same userbase I'm starting to hear complain about the 'consumerfication' of what we saw as a great creative platform.


This time I generally agree with you.

The missing detail about Apple: if it had been up to many of the loyal users, Apple would be roughly in the same position as Commodore about now. 

I'm not saying they/we have all been like this, but remember how many loyal Mac users scoffed at the original iMac, dumped on the dumbed-down iTunes/demise of SoundJam, lamented the iPod as a harmful distraction from Apple's proper business, criticized Apple Stores as deeply misguided and a death blow to resellers, declared the Mac mini DOA, railed against the traitorous adoption of Intel chips, declared that with the iPad Jobs had finally gone off his rocker... 

Every step of the way, many of the long-time Apple faithful second-guessed those "consumerification" moves, which have proven to be the very same moves that transformed Apple from a sickly little monkey into an 800 lb gorilla. (Yet somehow they managed to remain fanboys at the same time. Neat trick, something to do with complaining first and guzzling the Kool-Aid later, I guess.) I'm not just starting to hear it, it's been going on since they announced their first non-beige computer.

Lesson for RIM: the most faithful users do not always know best. You've got to know when to cater to them, and when to flat out ignore their criticisms as you implement your strategy for transforming the company.


----------



## bryanc

Joker Eh said:


> RIM is running around confused right now...


That's just the galvanic twitching of the dead corpse of a corporation. Given their size, it will take some time for their remains to be fully dispersed into the economic ecosystem, but, short of Voodoo, they're not getting back up.


----------



## Max

Excellent post, iMatt. Well said!


----------



## groovetube

yep. Sorta like when your indie band signs with a major, and after you put out your first even somewhat successful record all your original fans sneer at you for selling out. (but secretly wanna come to your shows hopin for free beer.)


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> yep. Sorta like when your indie band signs with a major, and after you put out your first even somewhat successful record all your original fans sneer at you for selling out. (but secretly wanna come to your shows hopin for free beer.)


Yah? Remember what happened to the Spoons?



bryanc said:


> That's just the galvanic twitching of the dead corpse of a corporation. Given their size, it will take some time for their remains to be fully dispersed into the economic ecosystem, but, short of Voodoo, they're not getting back up.


I think they're waiting for some sort of new product to emerge miraculously from its dying form, like the chestbuster alien.


----------



## groovetube

the spoons were indie? do tell.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> the spoons were indie? do tell.


The Spoons signed several deals with major companies like Polaroid and Thrifty's--and it killed them with fans. They were ahead of their time.


----------



## groovetube

I thunk did about as well as they would have ever done. They just went for the cash like everyone else.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Excellent post, iMatt. Well said!


I agree good post iMatt.


----------



## iMatt

Macfury said:


> The Spoons signed several deals with major companies like Polaroid and Thrifty's--and it killed them with fans. They were ahead of their time.


Goes to show that if you're going to sell out, it's best to do it after your heyday.

As a fan, I have no problem with the Kinks making a few bucks off HP or whomever in the '00s.

I am amused by the Jesus and Mary Chain popping up in a VW commercial, since they were originally way out of the mainstream (probably part of the point of the ad). And they are probably making more money off that one ad than they did off sales of the album it comes from. Had they done it in the 80s, I'd have been outraged.

But it can be carried too far. I used to adore the Who, but licensing three signature songs as openings for different flavours of CSI, then playing those same three songs as a Superbowl halftime performance on the same network, pretty much killed it for me.

What does this have to do with RIM again? Oh, right, Apple going mainstream is a little like an indie band going major. I suppose so, depending on the band.


----------



## groovetube

having had to make my dinner from music for so many years, I don't begrudge anyone from signing something to make a boatload of cash. Hell no.

I don't begrudge apple going mainstream, it's what companies do. If it affects my comfort zone, I will of course whine about it, it's what I do 

RIM has a lot challenges in front of it. Recent moves isn't enough. But it seems an unpopular position on an apple forum to think they're down quite yet. It's far too unpalatable to mac lovers that another platform could possibly have such mass appeal as BB does. But the ball is indeed in RIM's court. I have no idea which way it'll go, though it seems a lot of mac fans have an iCrystalBall.


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> I think they're waiting for some sort of new product to emerge miraculously from its dying form, like the chestbuster alien.


Oooh! I'd buy one of _those_!


----------



## Macfury

Anyone excited enough by the new Blackberry models that they believe it will mark a turnaround for RIM?


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> Anyone excited enough by the new Blackberry models that they believe it will mark a turnaround for RIM?


You mean the same ones that will be obsolete in a few months when they release QNX the one running on the Playbook?


----------



## dona83

Depends on the OS really, and the new processor and RAM helps. They must not like redesigning hardware. 

It's a tough slope. How do you freshen a Blackberry to appeal to the masses while not alienating the Crackberry addicts who may sober up if RIM changes the product for the worse. It's like if years from now Stephen Harper decides to bolster social funding in order to gain more votes from the left... He does so at the expense of the right. The Blackberry should continue to serve its niche market -- the corporations. Making the Blackberry like any other device out there will put them on a downward spiral like Mazda in the 80s when they tried to build cars like Toyota. 

Having said that, it seriously wouldn't kill them to get their design mojo back. Remember when Blackberries were the sexiest phones on the market? They need increase their R&D. Sexy, functional, tough. A phone can be all three. The three new models look very nice but for some it could be long in the tooth.


----------



## Macfury

Apparently a lot of their hope is invested in Latin America and emerging Pacific Rim markets. I don't know how these models will play out there.


----------



## groovetube

Keyword is, "you don't know".

Since you probably didn't know those markets have increased for them substantially.


----------



## Rps

First, I have a Blackberry. I really like it for text work, which I did a lot of when I was working. As a phone I found it very durable, more so than the others I have had. But, the standard for cell phones appears to be something like the iPhone. So it doesn't matter what type of phone you have it seems the market wants it to look and act like an iPhone ... which the BB does not. So, I ask myself, why didn't they just shrink the Playbook and make it a phone???????????????
Didn't they already have much of the technology to do this or, and I'm asking here, is the key to cell phones the OS and its really an OS issue that they have and not hardware???????


----------



## cap10subtext

RIM has a shrink-ray?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Keyword is, "you don't know".
> 
> Since you probably didn't know those markets have increased for them substantially.


Of course I know those markets are important to them. You don't need insider info to read the newspaper. The question is how much are they expecting those markets to carry, given the ho-hum factor of the new offering in North America.


----------



## groovetube

well since they still have a strangle hold on corporate america, I'd say it's certainly a bonus.


----------



## Joker Eh

Well that didn't take long.

RIM may have halted PlayBook production - Technology & science - Tech and gadgets - msnbc.com


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> Well that didn't take long.


Bet you feel like a fool now for predicting the Playbook's early demise! What did our resident tablet expert have to say about this? Oh yeah...

I think crow is on sale at 69 cents a pound.


----------



## groovetube

the fool is the one calling things this early in game.

btw I wouldn't use ketchup on crow.


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> Bet you feel like a fool now for predicting the Playbook's early demise! What did our resident tablet expert have to say about this? Oh yeah...
> 
> I think crow is on sale at 69 cents a pound.


If they drop the price to $199 or less you may see a big jump in sales just like what happended to HP, where HP even went as far as to order more tablets because of demand. But now it may be too late again for RIM with Amazon's own tablet release for $199 (US that is).

I think RIM is just going to fall back to where they were many years ago. Just a business device and not a consumer device. They just have to admit their device is not as sexy as the iPhone and the other smartphone's. With iMessage coming with iOS5, RIM's BBM just got matched and with recent polls that suggest that 45% of new cell phone buyers were going to be buying the "iPhone 5" it only gets worse for RIM.


----------



## groovetube

yeah I recall seeing a similar poll that 4 billion percent were going to buy the iphone 4, but i donno how android nailed 48% over iphones 28%

(cue fragmentation BS argument...)

As for RIM, anyone's guess how this plays out, I've predicted M$ snaps them up. Just a whimsical idea that became a little more serious after google snapped motorola.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> I think RIM is just going to fall back to where they were many years ago. Just a business device and not a consumer device. They just have to admit their device is not as sexy as the iPhone and the other smartphone's. With iMessage coming with iOS5, RIM's BBM just got matched and with recent polls that suggest that 45% of new cell phone buyers were going to be buying the "iPhone 5" it only gets worse for RIM.


Give it six months and there will be a golden turnaround!


----------



## groovetube

Who said that?


----------



## Macfury

Ya see, Joker Eh, you might have been right--but you were right for the wrong reasons. Better to arrive at the wrong answer with good reasoning, than to predict correctly for the wrong reason.


----------



## groovetube

or in your case simply jump around in a thread because you have an axe to grind and act like a total troll.

Grow up macfury. And learn to read what people actually posted. It's really, very simple if you take the time.

I simply suggested early on that it's too early to predict RIM going out of business and you continue to act like a jerk.


----------



## CubaMark

*RIM offering discounted PlayBooks at several retailers*



> Is the only thing standing in the way of Research In Motion Ltd.’s plan to turn the BlackBerry PlayBook into a hit consumer device the price tag?
> 
> It seems we’re about to find out.
> 
> Retailers in the United States and Canada — including Staples, Best Buy, and Future Shop – have started slashing the price of RIM’s first touchscreen tablet and at least one of RIM’s major telecom partners, Rogers Communications Inc., is offering its employees hefty discounts on the PlayBook.
> 
> When RIM first launched the PlayBook back in April, a 16GB version of the device sold for $499. However, several retailers have started offering 16GB *PlayBooks for as low as $249*, while at the same time offering customers gift cards and rebates as added incentives for purchasing the seven-inch touchscreen tablet.
> 
> In a statement, RIM said that the official retail price of the BlackBerry PlayBook has not changed.


(Financial Post)


----------



## Dr T

cap10subtext said:


> RIM has a shrink-ray?


I have no idea what this means. "RIM has a shrink-ray?" What does teat mean? The Blackberry is a superb device. Most everybody I know has one, but it is too expensive for me. So I use an iPhone.


----------



## Macfury

Dr T said:


> I have no idea what this means. "RIM has a shrink-ray?" What does teat mean? The Blackberry is a superb device. Most everybody I know has one, but it is too expensive for me. So I use an iPhone.


Read the blasted thread... including the post preceding it.


----------



## Dr T

Macfury said:


> Read the blasted thread... including the post preceding it.


I am too lazy to do that.


----------



## Dr T

groovetube said:


> or in your case simply jump around in a thread because you have an axe to grind and act like a total troll.
> 
> Grow up macfury. And learn to read what people actually posted. It's really, very simple if you take the time.
> 
> I simply suggested early on that it's too early to predict RIM going out of business and you continue to act like a jerk.


You see that I am trying to read back in the thread, even if i am too lazy.


----------



## Macfury

Dr T said:


> You see that I am trying to read back in the thread, even if i am too lazy.


Yes, you appear lazy. But I'll give you six months to do better. It's too early to pass judgement.


----------



## groovetube

Boy is atom smasher going to be disappointed if rim doesn't go under 6 months from the start of this thread.

You should go back to pretending to be a libertarian.


----------



## fjnmusic

More signs of the RIM apocalypse.

http://reuters.com/article/idUSN1E79214Z20111004?irpc=43


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> More signs of the RIM apocalypse.
> 
> Rogers to offer companies alternative to BlackBerry | Reuters


Give it six years. The kids really love the Playbook I hear. You can watch a video on it while listening to music from the latest rock bands.


----------



## Joker Eh

fjnmusic said:


> More signs of the RIM apocalypse.
> 
> Rogers to offer companies alternative to BlackBerry | Reuters


So sad. And to know that they had been working on something similar and just failed to get it complete. Again slow to market.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> More signs of the RIM apocalypse.
> 
> CORRECTED - Rogers to offer companies alternative to BlackBerry | Reuters





> Nelson, who estimates Rogers has hundreds of thousands of enterprise BlackBerrys on its network, thinks alternatives will take at least ten percent of that market within five years.


oh my god, the 4 horses are galloping. In 5 years. :baby:


----------



## Mckitrick

I like how everyone is hedging their bets on QNX. I haven't heard good things believe it or not. Not about the OS itself, but more about it's implementation within RIM. As for the killing of the Playbook, it would probably be a safer assumption that they're going to release a new version and so producing the old version doesn't make much sense since it isn't selling well anyway.


----------



## groovetube

I have heard a lot of very good things about QNX. But you're right, as is RIM's real problem, execution. Bad execution. I haven't heard that they are actually scrapping the playbook, though the fanbois are getting really excited over retailers dropping the prices to lower stock. You have to have -some- pity on the fanbois though, they were denied their iphone5 yesterday  Maybe in 6 months... :baby::baby:


----------



## Macfury

I hear the kids love QNX.


----------



## groovetube

I doubt they even know what it is, but thanks for playing anyway.


----------



## Joker Eh

RIM just released new phones this summer and yet when there are comparisons with the new iPhone 4S and other smartphones RIM is not even considered. They have got to bring their A game next time. 

I didn't expect much change is this version of the iPhone as it is the same thing that happened between 3G and 3GS. But this just means that Apple is going to bring out a whopper for iPhone 5.

Here is a quote from from Engadgets smartphone comparison


> RIM's not included here since it's still stuck in the junior leagues.


iPhone 4S vs. the smartphone elite: Galaxy S II, Bionic and Titan -- Engadget

Those are some harsh words but may be true. Like I have stated in the past I think RIM will just go back to being a business device and nothing more, the question is will they survive their place in the market now.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> Those are some harsh words but may be true. Like I have stated in the past I think RIM will just go back to being a business device and nothing more, the question is will they survive their place in the market now.


How long will you give them?


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> How long will you give them?


1 to 2 years. Will their share holders and market allow them go back to where they were? I don't think so.

I hope (and I am being honest here) they bounce back with their next release what ever and when ever it is. They are Canadian so I want them to succeed.

I think they should also keep their mouths shut about what is coming down the pipeline let the interest build up. Apple does not say one word about future devices and they get all the hype, all the other manufacturers release little tidbits via their CEO's who can't keep their mouths shut and it does not benefit them at all. Why do I need to watch the release presentation of their device if I already know everything about it?


----------



## groovetube

1 to 2 years??? Well that should send atom smasher into fits.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> 1 to 2 years??? Well that should send atom smasher into fits.


ah crap I didn't want to get in between you two. :yikes:


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> ah crap I didn't want to get in between you two. :yikes:


I just need the range. So that's between six months and two years.


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> ah crap I didn't want to get in between you two. :yikes:


hey yeah, no you've upped the ante now so now yer on yer own.


----------



## gmark2000

*BlackBerry Outage Hits Day Three, Spreads to U.S., Canada*

BlackBerry service outages spread to Canada
Widespread problems with texting, email continue for 3rd day

url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/12/blackberry-glitches.html]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/12/blackberry-glitches.html[/url]


----------



## Macfury

gmark2000 said:


> BlackBerry service outages spread to Canada
> Widespread problems with texting, email continue for 3rd day
> 
> url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/12/blackberry-glitches.html]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/10/12/blackberry-glitches.html[/url]


They'll have it ironed out in six weeks.


----------



## Joker Eh

All I want to know is what is going on over there in Waterloo? Is there something in the water that is causing these guys to drop the ball?


----------



## fjnmusic

So the Blackberry offers the kind of security you just can't get anywhere else, eh?


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> So the Blackberry offers the kind of security you just can't get anywhere else, eh?


Security... but not dependability. The kids really like it, I hear.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Security... but not dependability. The kids really like it, I hear.


Kids also like mosh pits.


----------



## Ottawaman

"Dear BlackBerry" is now trending worldwide on Twitter. Pretty much what you'd expect



> Dear BlackBerry, what did one bbm user say to another? nothing ....ahahahahhaha, ohmygosh.





> Dear Blackberry, the #OccupyBlackberry (#OBB) protests are only a rumour. And I didn't start it. Swear. Just start working again. Please.





> Dear Blackberry, you should know that I'm typing this with my middle finger... Sincerely, Angry Customer.


----------



## Macfury

^^^^^^^^^
Those kids are enjoying themselves. They were snapping up the Playbook, despite the ugly rumours you've herd.


----------



## groovetube

perhaps as long as the mobileme service disruptions.


----------



## Macfury

Ottawaman, did you know that you could surf the net while watching a movie on the Playbook?


----------



## groovetube

Ottawaman said:


> "Dear BlackBerry" is now trending worldwide on Twitter. Pretty much what you'd expect


I saw that. I think I saw somewhere a call to email blackberry from you iphone.

Did you order the 4s yet btw?


----------



## adagio

groovetube said:


> perhaps as long as the mobileme service disruptions.


Longest I've ever been without MobileMe has been 3 - 4 hours.


----------



## groovetube

mine was a week at least. It was for many. The service was intermittent and barely worked, I ended up using another email address.

But the nature of this outage will hit RIM pretty hard. Though this did occur in 09 I think as well. They survived.


----------



## groovetube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZp8GemqTTU


----------



## gmark2000

BlackBerry outage frustrates bankers | Reuters



> *BlackBerry outage frustrates bankers*
> * DLA Piper weighs moving to iPhone, Android
> * Credit Suisse: 1/3 of its 25,000 BlackBerry users switch
> * Demand from employees, savings prompt BlackBerry change
> * Firms like Good Technology offer secure alternatives
> 
> By Paritosh Bansal and Leigh Jones, REUTERS
> Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:01pm EDT
> 
> Oct 12 (Reuters) - A senior investment banker at a major Wall Street firm kept sending out e-mails on his BlackBerry on Wednesday morning. And they kept bouncing back.
> 
> "It's one of those things -- you don't realize how important it is to breathe, until you can't do it," said the New York-based banker, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak about the subject on behalf of his bank.
> 
> The banker is one of millions of BlackBerry users in various regions around the world who have been plagued by service disruptions over the last three days, with North American users of Research in Motion's popular handheld device being the latest to get hit on Wednesday.
> 
> Wall Street honchos and others who tend to spend more time on their BlackBerry than perhaps with their families were left frustrated at the service disruption.
> 
> The sentiment may prompt more banks and law firms to start using rivals such as Apple's iPhone and Google's Android-based devices -- a move that would not bode well for Research in Motion, which is already losing market share.
> 
> Law firm DLA Piper, which has 4,200 lawyers worldwide, is accelerating discussions about making a switch to iPhones and Android devices, said Don Jaycox, chief information officer.
> 
> "This has brought it to the front-burner," Jaycox said. "It will cause more people to opt for other choices."
> 
> It would join several Wall Street banks that already allow employees to use other devices to connect to company networks.
> 
> Credit Suisse earlier this year started allowing bankers and other employees to use their Apple and Android devices on the company network. Barclays Capital allows some employees to use iPhones and iPads. Standard Chartered switched from BlackBerry to iPhones for many users several months ago.
> 
> At Sagent Advisors, an independent investment bank in New York, 10 percent to 15 percent of the users have switched to iPhones, while a similar number have taken up Android devices.
> 
> "It is still mostly BlackBerry but quickly moving away," said Terrence Barron, Sagent's head of marketing and communications. "Over time there has been much more of sliding over to Android devices and iPhones for us."
> 
> Research in Motion advised clients of the outage in the Americas and said it was working to restore services. The company wasn't immediately available to comment on this article.
> 
> The switch away from BlackBerry comes as more employees demand to be allowed to use their iPhones, iPads and other smart phones on company networks. Some do not want to carry two devices, and some prefer tablets such as iPads over laptops.
> 
> One of BlackBerry's main selling points -- Research in Motion's top-tier security features -- is also no longer unique.
> 
> Mobile device management companies such as Good Technology and MobileIron are offering alternatives that are making it possible for banks and other firms to make the switch.
> 
> Banks also have an incentive in allowing employees to use their own devices, as it can save on what the company has to pay for the BlackBerry service plan.
> 
> Credit Suisse , for instance, has seen about one-third of its 25,000 BlackBerry users switch to Apple or Android devices this year, saving the bank millions of dollars, said Stephen Hilton, the bank's global head of technology infrastructure services.
> 
> The bank even offered employees a rebate to pay termination fees on existing BlackBerry contracts to make the switch.
> 
> "We are seeing very rapid adoption of this 'consumer technology' platform," Hilton said. "I suspect this (outage) would be another reason why people may reconsider at refresh what device they buy."
> 
> 'REAL PAIN'
> 
> The disruption on Wednesday left many bankers at a loss.
> 
> "I rely on BlackBerry and these outages have been a real pain," said a senior M&A banker at the London office of an international bank, who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.
> 
> A Houston-based investment banker who focuses on the energy sector deals said he copied himself on an email to make sure it went through.
> 
> A colleague who was traveling, he said, called from the road in "panic" because he had not received any emails for a couple of hours.
> 
> But while the disruption was frustrating, the banker said they had not been frequent enough to force a change at his firm. The last big outage in North America happened two years ago.
> 
> "If BlackBerry were down every other day it would be a pretty big issue," the banker said. "It just forces you to actually call your assistant. It's like the old days, when you had to talk to people."


----------



## groovetube

second outage in 2 years.

if it happens again in the next year, it'll knock them down pretty hard.


----------



## fjnmusic

This: RIM Says ?We?re Letting You Down? on Delays - Bloomberg

So I guess they deserve our continued support because at least they had the strength of character to admit they royally f-ed up.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> o I guess they deserve our continued support because at least they had the strength of character to admit they royally f-ed up.


It's too early to say. They have new Blackberry models coming out at some point.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> This: RIM Says ?We?re Letting You Down? on Delays - Bloomberg
> 
> So I guess they deserve our continued support because at least they had the strength of character to admit they royally f-ed up.


"our"?

I didn't realize you have a blackberry.

Anyway, this happened in 09. The only reason this is such a big deal is because of the recent press on blackberry's trouble and plummeting stock price.

We're still talking about a company with 70+ million users.

Missing growth expectations is their problem.


----------



## fjnmusic

09? Try the past four days.

And this: http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/201...ngs-about-the-blackberry-outage/?mod=yahoo_hs


----------



## imactheknife

I hate to say it, but the Co-CEO looked like he almost had to hold himself back from smirking in his video to the press. Is he really that arrogant? or just nervous?

I would love to support a Canadian company, but there a far more better choices out there with Apple and Google models. Rim has definitely got themselves in a heap of trouble, and I am not sure if they will be able to recover to the same levels they had before, EVER. 

Ya might want to buy RIMM stock before the new models and QNX OS comes out, but to me...still to risky to be sure.


----------



## groovetube

you misread my post. I said this happened in 09. Meaning, I'm fully aware this has occurred currently, (since my wife's entire global bank uses them), and it -also occurred back in 09.

But the service is back up for her, so maybe not 6 weeks but 6 hours in her case.

I was saying earlier, about mobileme. Well, good thing I don't use that for business.


----------



## Macfury

I think we're over the worst of it now.


----------



## groovetube

imactheknife said:


> I hate to say it, but the Co-CEO looked like he almost had to hold himself back from smirking in his video to the press. Is he really that arrogant? or just nervous?
> 
> I would love to support a Canadian company, but there a far more better choices out there with Apple and Google models. Rim has definitely got themselves in a heap of trouble, and I am not sure if they will be able to recover to the same levels they had before, EVER.
> 
> Ya might want to buy RIMM stock before the new models and QNX OS comes out, but to me...still to risky to be sure.


no real indication really of a real shakeup/turnaround from RIM that's needed. It's their huge customer base (70+million) to lose.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> no real indication really of a real shakeup/turnaround from RIM that's needed. It's their huge customer base (70+million) to lose.


And they're doing a bang up job of that so far. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

not too swift these BB heads.

But atom smasher can stop running circles it was a short 6 weeks. The service is apparently restored.


----------



## groovetube

RIM starts to build bridge over "app gap" - The Globe and Mail

Apparently this guy thinks there's possibilities over the short term as well.


----------



## Guest

groovetube said:


> RIM starts to build bridge over "app gap" - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Apparently this guy thinks there's possibilities over the short term as well.


Hmm, I dunno that HTML5 and Unity are really going to do that much for them personally. Also kind of shocking is the choice of QNX RTOS. In 1999 that would have been a great choice but not so sure it is these days. Having done some work with it in the past it's pretty archaic, even in Unix terms. 

Not saying these choices won't work out, just that they are odd in my eyes (especially QNX).


----------



## groovetube

I think it's not quite what you've seen. It's likely a universe different than where it was in 1999. Those gaming dev platforms. Wing cross platform will help any non iPhone platform. BB has 70 million users...


----------



## rondini

70 million and dropping


----------



## Macfury

rondini said:


> 70 million and dropping


Their growth market seems to be emerging economies. We'll see how long that goes.


----------



## groovetube

rondini said:


> 70 million and dropping


not fast enough for developers to write it off for some time yet.


----------



## Macfury

Poor Playbook:

RIM delays PlayBook OS update to 2012 - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Joker Eh

Now you have to call this a joke. From that article.



> In an official blogpost posted late on Tuesday, RIM said that not only will the updated OS not be released until early next year, but the update will not even include one of RIM's signature products: BlackBerry Messenger, or BBM.


This is even funnier



> “As much as we’d love to have it in your hands today, we’ve made the difficult decision to wait to launch BlackBerry PlayBook OS 2.0 *until we are confident we have fully met the expectations of our developers, enterprise customers and end-users*,” wrote David J. Smith, RIM's senior vice president for the BlackBerry PlayBook, on the company's Inside BlackBerry blog.


How if another piece of your software is missing?

Status quo is just not good enough anymore they have to go above and beyond now.


----------



## Macfury

A lot can change in six months. And the kids love the PlayBook.


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> Now you have to call this a joke. From that article.
> 
> 
> 
> This is even funnier
> 
> 
> 
> How if another piece of your software is missing?
> 
> Status quo is just not good enough anymore they have to go above and beyond now.


well good that they've gotten the idea they shouldn't release it until it's actually done. But boo on not having BBM. Major fail on that.


----------



## keebler27

Joker Eh said:


> Now you have to call this a joke. From that article.
> 
> 
> 
> This is even funnier
> 
> 
> 
> How if another piece of your software is missing?
> 
> Status quo is just not good enough anymore they have to go above and beyond now.


i couldn't believe this article when I saw it!

only 2 things come to mind:

1. they are delaying work on future hardware and software as they are being primed for a takeover

2. #1 isn't happening and their leaders are truly a bunch of morons for making this decision.

As an investor, maybe i'd be happier with #1 then #2, but wow.....terrible decisions I believe. I can understand the delay to a certain extent, but not having your infamous messenger app on your next gen device?!?!?!

That's like McDonald's not selling Happy Meals to kids or Ford not selling trucks!!!

duh!


----------



## bryanc

I haven't been participating in this thread, but I've long been of the opinion that RIM is a "dead man walking."

There's a nice (long) thread on Ars Technica, that's been running since last July with lots of technical discussions of where the train left the tracks.

It certainly seems that RIM hasn't been able to execute on anything for quite a while, and that, combined with competition from the Apple juggernaut and fast-moving Android have pretty much destroyed any hope RIM may once have had to expand into the consumer space.

Corporate IT will stick with Blackberries for a while, because corporate IT resists any and all change, even if it's clearly going to improve things. But I think the only long term outcomes for RIM are bankruptcy or acquisition. At this point, I think you can stick a fork in 'em.


----------



## groovetube

dead man walking is a good phrase for BB. If they didn't have corporate and decent fortunes globally, they wouldn't be walking much.

I've always considered them an acquisition target. My money has been on microsoft, but I guess we'll see.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> dead man walking is a good phrase for BB. If they didn't have corporate and decent fortunes globally, they wouldn't be walking much.
> 
> I've always considered them an acquisition target. My money has been on microsoft, but I guess we'll see.


Google would be my bet.


----------



## Guest

I'm not sure Microsoft would touch them as it doesn't fit into their hardware strategy, the same with Google, but I do think they are a takeover target for sure, just not sure if anyone will bite because of the fact that they do their own thing hardware and software wise and not sure anyone "new" would want to jump into the market against iOS and Android. The big (only?) advantage of course is the 70 million worldwide users.


----------



## Joker Eh

mguertin said:


> I'm not sure Microsoft would touch them as it doesn't fit into their hardware strategy, the same with Google, but I do think they are a takeover target for sure, just not sure if anyone will bite because of the fact that they do their own thing hardware and software wise and not sure anyone "new" would want to jump into the market against iOS and Android. The big (only?) advantage of course is the 70 million worldwide users.


Its not for the hardware it is for the patents and technology.


----------



## Guest

Ya I guess that's true, everyone wants a patent arsenal these days.


----------



## groovetube

Exactly. And a massive corporate market to sell software too ...


----------



## SINC

And so it begins:

BlackBerry users sue RIM


----------



## groovetube

man. It's good thing no one relies on iCloud.


----------



## Guest

groovetube said:


> man. It's good thing no one relies on iCloud.


I'm sure Apple's service agreement for iCloud is worded in a much less 'guaranteed' manner .. it's also free so it makes it harder to put a price tag on any potential losses. But at least if/when iCloud goes down your devices will continue to work (albeit without access to syncing some data and possibly some documents).

I always shook my head at RIM's network design (if you can call it that). One single point of failure for so many users worldwide. It's honesty pretty amazing that it hasn't gotten them into more trouble so far, especially given the way their services work. You couldn't pay me enough to take a sysadmin job at RIM, too much stress when services go down!


----------



## jimbotelecom

*It's the future RIM!*

BlackBerry Future Visions 2 - Leaked Video - YouTube


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> BlackBerry Future Visions 2 - Leaked Video - YouTube


Jeez. They need to put away the wacky tobakky and start bloody well executing something properly.


----------



## Joker Eh

jimbotelecom said:


> BlackBerry Future Visions 2 - Leaked Video - YouTube


Now we know what they were doing instead when deciding not to put the email and BBM on the playbook.


----------



## Guest

LOL that video was kinda funny. The other funny bit is that a lot of the "future" stuff they are envisioning can already be done on the iPhone (profiles, provisioning, remote lock and wipe, etc) and you don't have to "partition" your phone to do it.


----------



## groovetube

well I guess when all else fails it's time to fire up the BS machine and put'er in high gear.


----------



## bryanc

A couple of weeks ago Ars had an article on RIMs inevitable demise at the hands of Apple and Android, and that video showed up in the discussion. One of the interesting comments was that RIM and Microsoft seem to be putting a lot of effort into flashy, expensive "vision of the future" type things, while Apple and Google are cranking out products that people actually buy. One commenter pointed out that Apple has been known to do this sort of pie-in-the-sky thing as well, but that was back in the late 80's, when Apple was on the verge of extinction too.


----------



## Guest

I guess it's easier to look to the future and bury your head in the sand than it is to ship the actual hardware and software that does those types of things.


----------



## bryanc

Looks like RIM's coughing up blood now... another Canadian high tech company bites the dust


----------



## groovetube

well, they had a small chance. Obviously, they're squandering whatever little window they might have had.

Too bad.


----------



## Niteshooter

Notice that the price of the Praybook has been bumped back up from $249. Guess the firesale was too good to be true.


----------



## Niteshooter

Bloomberg comments not rosy either. Pity, wonder who will buy up their patents if the go kaput.

RIM Stock Falls Below Book Value as BlackBerry?s U.S. Market Share Shrinks - Bloomberg


----------



## jaline

bryanc said:


> Looks like RIM's coughing up blood now... another Canadian high tech company bites the dust


Yeah, it's sad. I don't see them disappearing for a while yet (the Blackberry is still pretty popular among select groups of people), but it's always sad when a decent Canadian company is on the downfall. 

It's not like Apple repeatedly comes out with amazing features with each release of an iPhone. They're great at mixing many factors (marketing, ease of use, marketing, design, limited stock in the beginning, etc.) in together and making things fun for the user.


----------



## fjnmusic

I don't care if RIM is Canadian. They were arrogant. They should have seen the signs and tried to adapt, but instead they allow two co-CEO's to run the company into the ground. That's just stupid and not worthy of my admiration, Canadian or not. That does not make me unpatriotic so much as as a fan of well-run businesses . RIM had their chance. There's enough die-hards out there to keep them on life support for another year or two.


----------



## groovetube

did anyone think you unpatriotic because you see RIM screwing up?


----------



## screature

fjnmusic said:


> I don't care if RIM is Canadian. They were arrogant. They should have seen the signs and tried to adapt, but instead they allow two co-CEO's to run the company into the ground. That's just stupid and not worthy of my admiration, Canadian or not. That does not make me unpatriotic so much as as a fan of well-run businesses . RIM had their chance. *There's enough die-hards* out there to keep them on life support for another year or two.


Being that there are millions upon millions of enterprise users who really don't have any choice... RIM is it for them or nothing else... that alone may carry them through.

If RIM can't get their act together then c'est la garre... but having been a Canadian success story I personally would not be happy to see them fail despite the glee some here are expressing at such a prospect... not quite sure why.

I think many are posting without having had an experience of RIM products, just a "chip on the shoulder", "knee jerk" reaction without any real basis for why the would like to see RIM fail.

I hope RIM doesn't fail as there are 10s of thousands of jobs at stake and if they can pull their socks up all the better as the more players in the market place the better it is for consumers...

Competition good... Monopoly bad.


----------



## bryanc

screature said:


> Competition good... Monopoly bad.


I agree, and I'd like to have seen RIM do well after real competition arrived in the market place. However, their actions (and inactions) have been a veritable showcase of "How to squander the position of entrenched market leader." I really can't think of how they could've done anything else wrong.

So, despite their being a Canadian company, I've given up hope for them, and won't mourn their, now inevitable relegation to niche status or complete insolvency. Business, like biology, does not take prisoners. Stupidity is a capital offence.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> I agree, and I'd like to have seen RIM do well after real competition arrived in the market place. However, their actions (and inactions) have been a veritable showcase of "How to squander the position of entrenched market leader." I really can't think of how they could've done anything else wrong.
> 
> So, despite their being a Canadian company, I've given up hope for them, and won't mourn their, now inevitable relegation to niche status or complete insolvency. Business, like biology, does not take prisoners. Stupidity is a capital offence.


Seems you understand the market when it suits you... RIM did a lot of things wrong as did Apple may years ago.. Apple survived... Personally so I hope the same for RIM... Time will tell...


----------



## fjnmusic

screature said:


> Seems you understand the market when it suits you... RIM did a lot of things wrong as did Apple may years ago.. Apple survived... Personally so I hope the same for RIM... Time will tell...


Big difference: Apple had a visionary leader who led the company back from purgatory. RIM has had the same two bozos all along, and Mike and Jim are anything _but _visionary. They still think people prefer buttons over touchscreens (_sooo_ 2006) and they don't understand why the PlayBook isn't selling better. I mean, who wouldn't want to bring their BlackBerry with them to read their mail on their tablet?

To quote from Macbeth: "Those he commands move only in command; nothing in love." So it is with RIM and their installed enterprise base. Better enjoy while it's still around. RIM share price says a lot. Lowest it's been since 2004.


----------



## Joker Eh

But it plays Flash ah ahhhhhhh. Wait that is dead to.


----------



## groovetube

actually no, the actual mobile plugin is, though not air or other content delivery models.


----------



## groovetube

RIM to forge ahead with Flash on the BlackBerry PlayBook, even if it's dead -- Engadget

these guys really are truly, dumb as posts.


----------



## Adrian.

groovetube said:


> RIM to forge ahead with Flash on the BlackBerry PlayBook, even if it's dead -- Engadget
> 
> these guys really are truly, dumb as posts.


Brutal eh?


----------



## SINC

Well, that certainly confirms the rather appropriate wording of the thread title, doesn't it?


----------



## The Doug

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Adrian. said:


> Brutal eh?


though RIM isn't the only dumbass. M$ is apparently releasing another version of silverlight.

Truthfully android devices will still continue to support it as well. I just thought the announcement was idiotic.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Well, that certainly confirms the rather appropriate wording of the thread title, doesn't it?


I don't know that many thought RIM has been very smart these days. But a few here thought RIM would be out of business by now.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I don't know that many thought RIM has been very smart these days. But a few here thought RIM would be out of business by now.


Not now, but almost certainly later.


----------



## groovetube

well, a lot of people called apple as dead, and RIM is in a waaaaaaaaay better position that that. So calling it definitively is idiotic at best.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Not now, but almost certainly later.


Exactly. There was someone here who thought RIM would turn itself around in six months with a phenomenal new product line-up--but I think he's gone now.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> well, a lot of people called apple as dead, and RIM is in a waaaaaaaaay better position that that. So calling it definitively is idiotic at best.


Oh dear. We've been there before. RIM is _nothing_ like Apple. Apple, under the new SJ in 1997, knew it was in trouble and that it had to do something drastic to reinvent itself or become bankrupt in 90 days. It even had to enlist Microsoft, its old rival, to bail it out to the tune of $150 million for the short term. And it had to drastically curtail its product offerings. It had lost its focus. Apple is the Phoenix, risen from its own ashes. RIM doesn't even know that it's on fire, and it forgot to but fire insurance to boot. You made more sense a few posts back, before you felt the need to defend these bozos again. RIM is the Titanic—sure they're big and "unsinkable", but Flash on the PlayBook is like rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Oh dear. We've been there before. RIM is _nothing_ like Apple. Apple, under the new SJ in 1997, knew it was in trouble and that it had to do something drastic to reinvent itself or become bankrupt in 90 days. It even had to enlist Microsoft, its old rival, to bail it out to the tune of $150 million for the short term. And it had to drastically curtail its product offerings. It had lost its focus. Apple is the Phoenix, risen from its own ashes. RIM doesn't even know that it's on fire, and it forgot to but fire insurance to boot. You made more sense a few posts back, before you felt the need to defend these bozos again. RIM is the Titanic—sure they're big and "unsinkable", but Flash on the PlayBook is like rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.


_since_ some people thought Apple was dead in 1997, 

_therefore_, anyone proclaiming RIM dead in 2011 are idiots.

Ouch! A few lessons in the Greek discipline of logical thinking would be appropriate here. I don't care how many teens are loving their Playbooks!


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Oh dear. We've been there before. RIM is _nothing_ like Apple. Apple, under the new SJ in 1997, knew it was in trouble and that it had to do something drastic to reinvent itself or become bankrupt in 90 days. It even had to enlist Microsoft, its old rival, to bail it out to the tune of $150 million for the short term. And it had to drastically curtail its product offerings. It had lost its focus. Apple is the Phoenix, risen from its own ashes. RIM doesn't even know that it's on fire, and it forgot to but fire insurance to boot. You made more sense a few posts back, before you felt the need to defend these bozos again. RIM is the Titanic—sure they're big and "unsinkable", but Flash on the PlayBook is like rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship.


you're right. Apple was nothing like RIM. Apple had way less market share, far less hope, or business to speak of, never mind they were pretty much *bankrupt* within weeks and certainly not the fierce loyalty the huge corporate market has for RIM.

So yeah, you are indeed correct when you say RIM isn't like apple in 1997...

So while some may find solace in greek mythology, there is reality too


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> you're right. Apple was nothing like RIM. Apple had way less market share, far less hope, or business to speak of, never mind they were pretty much *bankrupt* within weeks and certainly not the fierce loyalty the huge corporate market has for RIM.
> 
> So yeah, you are indeed correct when you say RIM isn't like apple in 1997...
> 
> So while some may find solace in greek mythology, there is reality too


Well, we agree on something. The big difference I'd say is awareness. The folks at RIM really seem to be in denial about a number of things: their market value (not market share—very different things, as investors care about market value), increasing preference for the flexibility of touchscreen technology, and the ultimately undependable security RIM offers when customers lose access to their basic services for several days in a row. This last point is the straw that breaks the back of many a camel.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> certainly not the fierce loyalty the huge corporate market has for RIM.


I'm not sure how fierce that loyalty is now. I personally know 5 or 6 corporate users who have jettisoned their blackberries for the iPhone mostly because of how the iPhone integrates with their private lives and because of the gazillion apps.

I'll admit there's a lot of hard core blackberry users who can't function on the iPhone's virtual keyboard and because of this there is a niche for RIM to continue to exist in some form or another. RIM's strategy continues to focus on consumers and I think they've lost the battle on that.

My overall view is that they're one big take over target now and things will be decided for them in the next 6 months or so. They do have plenty of cash to sustain them but the shareholders are becoming increasingly unruly.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> I'm not sure how fierce that loyalty is now. I personally know 5 or 6 corporate users who have jettisoned their blackberries for the iPhone mostly because of how the iPhone integrates with their private lives and because of the gazillion apps.
> 
> I'll admit there's a lot of hard core blackberry users who can't function on the iPhone's virtual keyboard and because of this there is a niche for RIM to continue to exist in some form or another. RIM's strategy continues to focus on consumers and I think they've lost the battle on that.
> 
> My overall view is that they're one big take over target now and things will be decided for them in the next 6 months or so. They do have plenty of cash to sustain them but the shareholders are becoming increasingly unruly.


I don't disagree, though 5 or 6 corporate users switching doesn't tear down their grip on the corporate market.

Careful about using that 6 month timeframe, the fans of greek mythology will go apecrap on you.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> I don't disagree, though 5 or 6 corporate users switching doesn't tear down their grip on the corporate market.
> 
> Careful about using that 6 month timeframe, the fans of greek mythology will go apecrap on you.


I hear you. I'm basing the 6 or so months on RIM having to bring QNX phones to market before May 2012 and the subsequent reaction to them. I hope they pull it off but I'm not overly optimistic.


----------



## screature

What I still fail to understand is the glee that some are taking in the possible demise of RIM.

Are they shorting their stock? Otherwise why the big chip on the shoulder that some seem to be carrying.

Personally I have neither an iPhone or a Blackberry. My work gave me a Blackberry for a while but I didn't really have much need for it so I signed it over to someone else in our offices who had more use for it.

But in the end the more players in the marketplace is generally good for the user/consumer. I really am not sure why the animosity toward RIM... if you don't like them well then you have choices but why would anyone want to see them go out of business and the accompanying loss of good paying jobs and losses in the stock market for share owners? 

I really don't understand it, it isn't like RIM runs sweat shops or are killing babies or polluting drinking water in 3rd world nations etc... I am at a loss.


----------



## jimbotelecom

^^^

Not sure but Balsillie does rub people the wrong way. Then there are the limits of BB's when compared to what all the great apps that iPhone and even Android have to offer. It may just be RIM's very poor response to the consumer innovation that Apple offered. Too much me too, I can do that, and then fall far short of expectations. And many do enjoy piling on when someone falls.


----------



## fjnmusic

jimbotelecom said:


> I'll admit there's a lot of hard core blackberry users who can't function on the iPhone's virtual keyboard…


Interesting thing is, with a decent voice-control input method like Siri, you don't really need a keyboard at all much of the time.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> I hear you. I'm basing the 6 or so months on RIM having to bring QNX phones to market before May 2012 and the subsequent reaction to them. I hope they pull it off but I'm not overly optimistic.


neither am I really, I just don't see the shakeup needed.


----------



## jimbotelecom

fjnmusic said:


> Interesting thing is, with a decent voice-control input method like Siri, you don't really need a keyboard at all much of the time.


I'm a big user of nuance for composing a lot of my longer work correspondence. And I've been using it for a few years. I still do all my editing with a keyboard. I seem to have a brain cramp organising my thoughts when dictating. I take some logical leaps that force me to review and adjust. 

I'm anxious to start using Siri but I'm holding off for iPhone 5, LTE, and full Canadian Siri capabilities.


----------



## slipstream

Sad thing is, the BlackBerry really is a nice phone for business communications. Work just gave me a 9900, and it's a pleasure to use for work connectivity. My personal iPhone is a far better tool for Internet, documents and everything else, but the BB works fine for work. If I could wave a wand, I'd make work life all Apple too, but that would be for bells and whistles, not job 1.


----------



## DR Hannon

With the price drop of the Playbook to Amazon Fire or iPod touch levels, even better considering that it has double the storage. It may have hit a sweet spot for the holiday season. After reading some pretty nasty reviews of the Fire,it might be worth a look for this type of shopper.


----------



## fjnmusic

Something that will no doubt give many people something to react to: given that the term "market" refers to buyers and sellers of products, I find it interesting how often I hear stats on how much "market share" Android phones have and how they are blowing Apple, RIM and others. I also read how Apple makes 52% of the profits from sales of smartphones despite working from a much smaller piece of the overall pie. As an investor, it's pretty obvious where the most profitable investment choice comes from, despite Google's Android OS being so dominant in "market share."

In fact, I would submit that the Android OS itself actually has zero market share, since the OS is given away free. If market means buying-and-selling, then there is no profit being made from the distribution of this free operating system, at least not for Google. It recoups it's investment through search and the associated advertising profits, but it makes nothing from Android directly. Therefore, it is wrong to speak of Android market share. Distribution, sure. Influence, certainly. But not profits, which is what market share is indirectly intended to measure.

One could speak of HTC or Samsung or RIM or Nokia market share compared to say Apple, since all of these companies compete in the same market of selling devices, and one could compare OS's as well, where both Apple and RIM also compete against the likes of Android and Symbian, but since the OS normally comes bundled free with the device, this is not the best measure of market share either, and one would have to include all Apple devices that use iOS as well as other tablets that don't to get a true pucture in any event.

Bottom line: comparing sales of one device like the iPhone (which actually generates a profit and therefore is marketable) to a freely distributed operating system like Android (which is not profitable) that is used on hundreds of devices that are actually competing with each other for sales of devices (which are profitable) is a lot like comparing Apples and..... uh.... not-Apples.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> In fact, I would submit that the Android OS itself actually has zero market share, since the OS is given away free. .


Clearly you don't understand google's business model then. Just because it's not what Apple's is, doesn't give any validity to such a ridiculous statement.


----------



## Puccasaurus

Yeah, I'm not sure the semantic handwaving holds up. Call it market share or mind share or whatever, but clearly Android (and others) have part of it. With respect, fjnmusic, that is some pretty tortured logic there.


----------



## hayesk

groovetube said:


> Clearly you don't understand google's business model then. Just because it's not what Apple's is, doesn't give any validity to such a ridiculous statement.


It depends. It's not so ridiculous if you are considering the sales performance of handset makers, and not handset platforms.


----------



## hayesk

slipstream said:


> Sad thing is, the BlackBerry really is a nice phone for business communications. Work just gave me a 9900, and it's a pleasure to use for work connectivity. My personal iPhone is a far better tool for Internet, documents and everything else, but the BB works fine for work. If I could wave a wand, I'd make work life all Apple too, but that would be for bells and whistles, not job 1.


What actual work is it better at doing? If the iPhone is better at Internet, documents, etc. why is good about the Blackberry, other than their security model. The security model is not an end user function, it's just a facilitation of it. So what work do you do on your Blackberry?

I can't for the life of me, type on a BB physical keyboard, but I guess some can. So, is it just encrypted email?


----------



## groovetube

hayesk said:


> It depends. It's not so ridiculous if you are considering the sales performance of handset makers, and not handset platforms.


It's ridiculous no matter what position you take I think. They are completely different models, and just because one thinks apple's is better doesn't suddenly erase the huge numbers of people buying android sets. (and not apple)


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Bottom line: comparing sales of one device like the iPhone (which actually generates a profit and therefore is marketable) to a freely distributed operating system like Android (which is not profitable) that is used on hundreds of devices that are actually competing with each other for sales of devices (which are profitable) is a lot like comparing Apples and..... uh.... not-Apples.


Give it six months, man. You'll change your tune.


----------



## groovetube

actually, we're talking about android. 

joke = fail.


----------



## fjnmusic

Unless Google starts to make a cut from the actual sale of Android OS handsets, my point is absolutely valid. At the moment, Microsoft makes more money off the sale of Android OS phones due to patent issues. 

And it has nothing to do with business models. Google is a very successful company, but due to advertising from search, not from Android, which brings no profit directly for its shareholders. And if other handset makers learn to bypass Google search the way iOS does with Siri and Safari Reader, which strips out the ads from the web pages, Google could well be in trouble down the road. Especially since iOS users are more likely to actually spend money on apps and such compared with Android users, who tend to be sort of a cheap lot.

Where this leaves RIM, I have no idea, but I think they seem like deer caught in the headlights now. Oh well. Evolve or die off. Survival of the fittest.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> It's ridiculous no matter what position you take I think. They are completely different models, and just because one thinks apple's is better doesn't suddenly erase the huge numbers of people buying android sets. (and not apple)


I didn't say "better"; I said more profitable. And no, there is one concept if buy/sell that has any bearing on investors, which is who the concept of market share would matter to. Put it this way: if Google didn't make any money from advertising, would it still survive as a company? A mere 4 or 5% of their profits do not come from advertising (which is arguably the least satisfying part of the Internet experience). Subtract the advertising kickbacks and we're talking about a whole different emphasis on the importance of market share.


----------



## fjnmusic

This...a commentary on RIM's 90% drop in value from a few short years ago, along with Apple's now dominant market share among business users. Quite the role reversal.

http://seekingalpha.com/#article/31...s-a-sign-that-the-knife-will-keep-on-falling/


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> This...a commentary on RIM's 90% drop in value from a few short years ago, along with Apple's now dominant market share among business users. Quite the role reversal.
> 
> Stock Market News & Financial Analysis - Seeking Alpha


That is all certainly true, but since you decided to link to it, it makes you an Apple 'fanboi."


----------



## groovetube

you're still wrong.

Google has a different business model. It makes BILLIONS of dollars from putting out android. It makes no difference whether the billions come from the direct sale of the OS, or from having the OS on a phone.

I dont think apple makes anything off it's OS either, but it benefits from people buying it's hardware with the OS.

So your argument that android has no marketshare. Brainless.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> That is all certainly true, but since you decided to link to it, it makes you an Apple 'fanboi."


And? So what? "Fanboi's" are incapable of making valid arguments because of their blind devotion to one company? That's like saying people who have a strong connection to a particular religion or football team are not capable of seeing the world objectively.

Hold on now—that might actually be true. :lmao:


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> you're still wrong.
> 
> Google has a different business model. It makes BILLIONS of dollars from putting out android. It makes no difference whether the billions come from the direct sale of the OS, or from having the OS on a phone.
> 
> I dont think apple makes anything off it's OS either, but it benefits from people buying it's hardware with the OS.
> 
> So your argument that android has no marketshare. Brainless.


Brainless, eh? You're being a bit of a jerk now, Groove. Attack the argument, not the person.

You've completely missed the point. I have no quarrel with Google's success. They've earned their success. For the most part. Their business model works very well for them. My issue is the use of the term "market share," and the most common stat presented that compares iPhone sales with the ubiquitousness of Android OS powered phones, which are made by many different manufacturers. I agree that Apple makes no money off iOS either, and it is odd to say the least to compare the market share of items that are not being bought or sold, as is the case with OS's. You can, however, measure the sales of _devices_ that use the OS, in which case Apple, RIM, Nokia, HTC, Samsung, and hundreds of others all compete for market share. 

Apple makes 52% of the total profits from ALL of these handset makers, which means they make more profit _than all the rest of them combined_ (the remaining 48%). Google makes zero profits from the sale of smartphones. Zero. Nothing. It has no market share as far as smartphone sales go, even though its OS is everywhere. It does make a s***load from advertising though, which is great as long as people continue to love or at least pay attention to all those banner ads and 15 or 30 second video ads now attached to many YouTube videos, among all the other ads we see everywhere everytime we use the Google search engine.

You may be thinking, so what? They make more money than I'll ever see in a lifetime, so good for them. And I would agree with you. But it would be erroneous to claim that the Android OS has market share, except indirectly. So who has the market share, then? All the companies that use this OS, including Samsung (the actual leader, as I recall), HTC, and the hundreds of others who borrow this OS in all of its myriad versions, many of which are not compatible with each other. If HTC has a great month and outsells Samsung, it does not benefit Samsung that they both use the same OS. Some companies will eventually go out of business if they do not turn a profit. 

It's like Amazon selling the Kindle Fire for $199, which is less than it costs to make by a few dollars. How on earth is that a good business model? They'll price themselves right out of business eventually. Good thing Amazon.com makes enough money to subsidize its tablet venture. But make no mistake: you cannot sell at a loss for very long before having huge "market share"—or distribution—eventually kills off your business altogether. Just ask Hewlett-Packard if they plan to build more HP Touchpads and sell them for $99. The shareholders loved that move, even if it meant an increased market share. 

And oddly enough, Apple chugs along with its premium pricing, barely reducing prices even for Black Friday, and it kills the competition for both profits and consumer confidence. So you tell me: is this simply the mindless ramblings of another fanboi, or is there perhaps some merit to an argument that you haven't really considered yet? I have given it much thought, so you're assertion that the points I've made are "brainless" is not only ignorant but not very well thought out either.


----------



## hayesk

groovetube said:


> you're still wrong.
> 
> Google has a different business model. It makes BILLIONS of dollars from putting out android.


Source? No doubt Google makes money through ad sales to and using the data from Android users, but is it billions?


----------



## hayesk

fjnmusic said:


> It's like Amazon selling the Kindle Fire for $199, which is less than it costs to make by a few dollars. How on earth is that a good business model?


Every Kindle Fire owner will, on average, purchase more books on Kindle than what they would have otherwise. That's the theory anyway. It's worked for video game console makers for years. It's worked for inkjet printer manufacturers as well. Time will tell if it works for Amazon, but it's not necessarily a bad strategy.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> That is all certainly true, but since you decided to link to it, it makes you an Apple 'fanboi."


That link didn't actually work so well. Here it is again. Apologies.

Research In Motion: HTC Is A Sign That The Knife Will Keep On Falling - Seeking Alpha


----------



## fjnmusic

hayesk said:


> Every Kindle Fire owner will, on average, purchase more books on Kindle than what they would have otherwise. That's the theory anyway. It's worked for video game console makers for years. It's worked for inkjet printer manufacturers as well. Time will tell if it works for Amazon, but it's not necessarily a bad strategy.


Good point. But I would also argue that video game console makers are dinosaurs today with so much emphasis on the mobile market. And you're not kidding about inkjet printers when you consider the cost of ink. But I have never understood how a company can survive for very long when it does not turn a profit at some point. All it would take to mess up Amazon's plans to take over the world are for another company to create a better purchasing/distribution system than Amazon.com. And all it would take to mess up Apple's plans to take over the world are for another company to create a better purchasing/distribution system than iTunes. And funny thing, there are probably several better organised systems, but because iTunes is everywhere, it's a pretty tough competitor to beat. iTunes is also given away freely. Maybe that's also Android's advantage, but the difference is that Google relies on everyone else using their OS. If a better OS comes out for free that can do the job better, that would be the threat.

And to bring it back to RIM, that's exactly what's happened. Many companies, Apple among them, have come up with better devices and OS's that do the job better RIM. RIM used be the de facto standard for smart phones, a few years ago, but not anymore. It's sad in a way, given that they are a Canadian company, that they failed to maintain their early lead, but this is the way the market works.


----------



## groovetube

hayesk said:


> Source? No doubt Google makes money through ad sales to and using the data from Android users, but is it billions?


let me google that...

"how does google make money from android"

oh. 

How much money does Google make from mobile? | ZDNet

Sorry for the slight sarcasm, but I'm rather surprised that fjn didn't take 10 seconds to look into this.


----------



## fjnmusic

It continues to amaze how much GT does not actually read nor consider the posts he responds to. I am not arguing that Google is not successful, or that it makes a ton of money from advertising. This is exactly what I have been saying. It's that using the term "market share" to refer to a commodity that is neither bought nor sold is a puzzling concept at best. In any event, the competition seems to more between Google and Microsoft rather than Apple, according to the very article that GT refers to. 

"Android is hugely important to Google and a big threat to Microsoft and it’s Windows 8/Windows Phone plans (hence the squeeze the Redmond giant has been putting on Android ODMs, demanding fat royalty payments in exchange for patent infringement indemnity). These two companies are fighting for whatever scraps are left behind by Apple so expect the fighting (both in ads and in the courts) to escalate as the pool of potential users increases. The battlefield is going to get bloody."

Scraps left by Apple. Hmmm.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> It continues to amaze how much GT does not actually read nor consider the posts he responds to. I am not arguing that Google is not successful, or that it makes a ton of money from advertising. This is exactly what I have been saying. It's that using the term "market share" to refer to a commodity that is neither bought nor sold is a puzzling concept at best. In any event, the competition seems to more between Google and Microsoft rather than Apple, according to the very article that GT refers to.
> 
> "Android is hugely important to Google and a big threat to Microsoft and it’s Windows 8/Windows Phone plans (hence the squeeze the Redmond giant has been putting on Android ODMs, demanding fat royalty payments in exchange for patent infringement indemnity). These two companies are fighting for whatever scraps are left behind by Apple so expect the fighting (both in ads and in the courts) to escalate as the pool of potential users increases. The battlefield is going to get bloody."
> 
> Scraps left by Apple. Hmmm.


It's because your statements are totally false. It's a drag to waste time bantering about such ridiculous nonsense, simply because, you love apple and will spin anything to support "APPLE IS KING BAH HA HA". I'd rather see posts about the pros and cons of different platforms. At least a sane one, without all this fanboi-ism stuff that is merely bent on spinning things. Really, what a waste of time.

C'mon. I'm an apple user and prefer their platform too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to waste time making nonsense arguments that android has zero marketshare, by what, YOUR definition? What a tired nonsense position.

Listen. Why don't you call all the powers that be, and go set them straight so that they can reset those upsetting numbers back to zero. I'm sure, they'll try hard not to laugh.

The truth is, android is currently besting apple. I know you were titillated by the 'scraps left by apple' thing, but it's simply not reality. Note I didn't say android was better than apple. I just want to make that distinction before the feathers get majorly ruffled...

And microsoft would only dream, of getting the sort of er, marketshare enjoyed by android right now.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> It's because your statements are totally false. It's a drag to waste time bantering about such ridiculous nonsense, simply because, you love apple and will spin anything to support "APPLE IS KING BAH HA HA". I'd rather see posts about the pros and cons of different platforms. At least a sane one, without all this fanboi-ism stuff that is merely bent on spinning things. Really, what a waste of time.
> 
> C'mon. I'm an apple user and prefer their platform too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to waste time making nonsense arguments that android has zero marketshare, by what, YOUR definition? What a tired nonsense position.
> 
> Listen. Why don't you call all the powers that be, and go set them straight so that they can reset those upsetting numbers back to zero. I'm sure, they'll try hard not to laugh.
> 
> The truth is, android is currently besting apple. I know you were titillated by the 'scraps left by apple' thing, but it's simply not reality. Note I didn't say android was better than apple. I just want to make that distinction before the feathers get majorly ruffled...
> 
> And microsoft would only dream, of getting the sort of er, marketshare enjoyed by android right now.


What are you talking about? I hate Apple. :lmao:

Here's a definition from Investopedia. It's the first thing that comes up when you Google "What is Market Share?" What definition are you using?



> *What Does Market Share Mean?*
> 
> The percentage of an industry or market's _total sales_ that is earned by a particular company over a specified time period. Market share is calculated by _taking the company's sales_ over the period and dividing it by the total sales of the industry over the same period. This metric is used to give a general idea of the size of a company to its market and its competitors.
> 
> *Investopedia explains Market Share*
> 
> Investors look at market share increases and decreases carefully because they can be a sign of the relative competitiveness of the company's products or services. As the total market for a product or service grows, a company that is maintaining its market share is growing revenues at the same rate as the total market. A company that is growing its market share will be growing its revenues faster than its competitors.
> 
> Market share increases can allow a company to achieve greater scale in its operations and improve profitability. Companies are always looking to expand their share of the market, *in addition to* trying to grow the size of the total market by _appealing to larger demographics, lowering prices, or through advertising_. This calculation is sometimes done over specific countries such as Canada market share or US market share.
> 
> Investors can obtain market share data from various independent sources (such as trade groups and regulatory bodies), and often from the company itself, although some industries are harder to measure with accuracy than others.
> 
> Read more: Market Share Definition


Again, the same point: Google does not SELL its OS to handset makers; therefore one cannot say it actually has any market share in handset sales. Its operating system is being distributed very rapidly, no question, though one must consider if it would be as popular as a platform if handset manufacturers and distributors had to pay for it if it. Your problem appears to be that you don't actually understand what the term market share means. It's not surprising you come to wrong conclusions when you're not working from correct definitions.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> What are you talking about? I hate Apple. :lmao:
> 
> Here's a definition from Investopedia. It's the first thing that comes up when you Google "What is Market Share?" What definition are you using?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the same point: Google does not SELL its OS to handset makers; therefore one cannot say it actually has any market share in handset sales. Its operating system is being distributed very rapidly, no question, though one must consider if it would be as popular as a platform if handset manufacturers and distributors had to pay for it if it. Your problem appears to be that you don't actually understand what the term market share means. It's not surprising you come to wrong conclusions when you're not working from correct definitions.


you are using a generalized definition to split hairs. The problem here is that you simply do not like a large number being attributed to Google.

The alternative is to take that large number, and simply split it up amongst the 8 or so companies making android handsets. It's still marketshare, and share that neither Apple, nor microsoft has. Combined, they are all running android.

I'm sure there are different graphs showing marketshare by handset makers, as well by platform. There's no reason to get your feathers in a huff about either. For years marketshare for personal computers were mainly microsoft windows, mac, and linux. PCs didn't have the option for macOS to be installed, so one could blow a hole in that one too. Yippee!!!

So, in the end, what have you proved, that Google is is crap? Good for you. Now, how about something meaningful instead of this nonsense.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> you are using a generalized definition to split hairs. The problem here is that you simply do not like a large number being attributed to Google.
> 
> The alternative is to take that large number, and simply split it up amongst the 8 or so companies making android handsets. It's still marketshare, and share that neither Apple, nor microsoft has. Combined, they are all running android.
> 
> So, in the end, what have you proved, that Google is is crap? Good for you. Now, how about something meaningful instead of this nonsense.


Man, you can be obtuse. The assertion is about MARKET SHARE. You asked for a definition, I gave you one, a commonly understood one, and it's still not good enough for you. And stop telling me what I like or want. I use Google everyday. I think it's a great search engine. The problem is that you don't seem to be able to accept that you need to be either buying or selling something in order to be able to claim market share. It is just as disingenuous to look at iOS market share if the OS is free. You can only measure the actual things that are bought or sold, otherwise you are measuring something else, but it ain't market share. Many stats providers are failing to take this simple fact into account, and you also buy into it hook, line and sinker.

Google is not crap in my opinion. They are very clever to give away their OS, much like Apple did when they gave away iTunes (and to a lesser extent Safari) for free to all the PC users in the world—a glass of ice water to someone in hell, so went the quote. That was a masterful bit of strategy on Google's part and seems to be working to help the company profit. But its because of _advertising_, not phone sales. Google makes a handsome profit every time an iPhone user uses its Search function too, don't forget. This is not an either/or situation. But it's just dumb to look at "market share" of a product that is neither bought nor sold. It's like saying the generic brand we know as "tap water" has the largest market share of the bottled water industry.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> For years marketshare for personal computers were mainly microsoft windows, mac, and linux. PCs didn't have the option for macOS to be installed, so one could blow a hole in that one too.


The difference is that Microsoft wasn't giving their OS away for free. They were charging computer makers for it as part of the price of the computer, and charging the user again if you wanted to upgrade to one of six different versions of the OS. In this case, you can actually measure the number of items sold, even if the item is software. With Android, you can count the number of devices that use the software, but you cannot claim that the OS is being sold, not even in a single case. No sell=no profit=no market share.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Man, you can be obtuse. The assertion is about MARKET SHARE. You asked for a definition, I gave you one, a commonly understood one, and it's still not good enough for you. And stop telling me what I like or want. I use Google everyday. I think it's a great search engine. The problem is that you don't seem to be able to accept that you need to be either buying or selling something in order to be able to claim market share. It is just as disingenuous to look at iOS market share if the OS is free. You can only measure the actual things that are bought or sold, otherwise you are measuring something else, but it ain't market share. Many stats providers are failing to take this simple fact into account, and you also buy into it hook, line and sinker.
> 
> Google is not crap in my opinion. They are very clever to give away their OS, much like Apple did when they gave away iTunes (and to a lesser extent Safari) for free to all the PC users in the world—a glass of ice water to someone in hell, so went the quote. That was a masterful bit of strategy on Google's part and seems to be working to help the company profit. But its because of _advertising_, not phone sales. Google makes a handsome profit every time an iPhone user uses its Search function too, don't forget. This is not an either/or situation. But it's just dumb to look at "market share" of a product that is neither bought nor sold. It's like saying the generic brand we know as "tap water" has the largest market share of the bottled water industry.


Obtuse? You run underneath a generalized definition to support a nonsense argument, and I'm obtuse?

I'm sorry but the definition isn't limited to just sales of a company. If you want to play the numbskull game of google, here, from the business dictionary:
What is market share? definition and meaning


> What is company? definition and meaning


I would consider Android, a 'brand'. And it has quite the marketshare numbers.

from miriam webster dictionary:
Market share - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


> : the percentage of the market for a product or service that a company supplies


hmm. no mention of 'sales'. 

So therefore, your assertion that android has zero marketshare (not to mention your laughable assertion that google couldn't be making money from android), is once again false.

And I'm not sure what there is to gain from this chest thumping other than apple is god. It's sooo obvious fjn.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> Obtuse? You run underneath a generalized definition to support a nonsense argument, and I'm obtuse?
> 
> I'm sorry but the definition isn't limited to just sales of a company. If you want to play the numbskull game of google, here, from the business dictionary:
> What is market share? definition and meaning
> 
> 
> I would consider Android, a 'brand'. And it has quite the marketshare numbers.
> 
> So therefore, your assertion that android has zero marketshare (not to mention your laughable assertion that google couldn't be making money from android), is once again false.
> 
> And I'm not sure what there is to gain from this chest thumping other than apple is god. It's sooo obvious fjn.


Google makes no money from Android. They say it themselves. You could even.... uh.... Google it.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Google makes no money from Android. They say it themselves. You could even.... uh.... Google it.


Yeah you can google how much money google benefits from android's usage. Oh and when the ceo talks about that rising to 10 billion down the road if their *cough* marketshare rises significantly. It's simply a different business model. You don't seem to quite understand this.

Just more nonsense assertions from you, once again.

About as nonsensical as someone arguing that since apple doesn't _sell_ it's iOS, it shouldn't be included in OS marketshare.

At some point, sane discussion about platforms could break out. But I'm not holding my breath with sort of circular nonsense.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> Yeah you can google how much money google benefits from android's usage. Oh and when the ceo talks about that rising to 10 billion down the road if their *cough* marketshare rises significantly. It's simply a different business model. You don't seem to quite understand this.
> 
> Just more nonsense assertions from you, once again.
> 
> About as nonsensical as someone arguing that since apple doesn't _sell_ it's iOS, it shouldn't be included in OS marketshare.
> 
> At some point, sane discussion about platforms could break out. But I'm not holding my breath with sort of circular nonsense.


It would be nice to talk about my ideas with someone other than you for a change. Thanks for making an effort though.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> It would be nice to talk about my ideas with someone other than you for a change. Thanks for making an effort though.


He is always here to serve you!


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> He is always here to serve you!


Good to know.


----------



## groovetube

I'm sure there's plenty of fanboi sites that would welcome that sort of nonsense with glee.


----------



## hayesk

groovetube said:


> let me google that...
> 
> "how does google make money from android"
> 
> oh.
> 
> How much money does Google make from mobile? | ZDNet
> 
> Sorry for the slight sarcasm, but I'm rather surprised that fjn didn't take 10 seconds to look into this.


And I'm sure you realize that AdMob makes up a significant chunk of that. AdMob, which is on iOS, Android, and other platforms. So it is likely that google makes over a billion from Android, but it's not as cut and dry as you are insinuating. Much of that revenue is coming from non-Android mobile platforms.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> He is always here to serve you!


given you have 2.5 times the comments I have despite joining years later, I'd say coming this site's number one service provider, that's pretty finny.


----------



## groovetube

hayesk said:


> And I'm sure you realize that AdMob makes up a significant chunk of that. AdMob, which is on iOS, Android, and other platforms. So it is likely that google makes over a billion from Android, but it's not as cut and dry as you are insinuating. Much of that revenue is coming from non-Android mobile platforms.


I don't know what the make up is. But I was just addressing the notion that google makes nothing off of android.

A billion is still, a billion bucks . not bad for tossing out an open source OS to feed your main business. I'm not saying I think Google's business model is better, just not accepting nonsense. Zero marketshare and zero dollars? nonsense.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I'm sure there's plenty of fanboi sites that would welcome that sort of nonsense with glee.


Hate to be the one to break it to you, Groove, but you realize that you don't actually own this thread, right? You're not the OP; just a contributor like the rest of us. You have no right to redirect anyone somewhere else. And having, a conversation with, you is pretty, much an exercise in, futility.


----------



## groovetube

Well that's quite a revelation!

Still doesn't make your statements any less ridiculous.


----------



## fjnmusic

Here's more from InvestorWords.com:

"Market Share" definition:

"The percentage of the total sales of a given type of product or service that are attributable to a given company."

And "Sales" Definition:

"Total dollar amount collected for goods and services provided. While payment is not necessary for recognition of sales on company financial statements, there are strict accounting guidelines stating when sales can be recognized. The basic principle is that a sale can only be recognized when the transaction is already realized, or can be quite easily realized. This means that the company should have already received a payment, or the chances of receiving a payment is high. In addition, delivery of the good or service should have taken place for the sale to be recognized."

Sure seems to be an emphasis on sales from everything I've read so far. But how do you measure the sales of an item that has not been sold, but rather given away free instead? There's no doubt that you can make a huge amount of money indirectly from the simple repetition of a message as many times as possible. When I think popcorn, I automatically think Orville Reddenbocker even though there are other brands out there. The Android overwhelms by its sheer numbers, but by rights, it should then be a more profitable brand than it actually is. Something doesn't translate. I believe that there are two wrong assumptions here: a) that greater activations of a free OS gives the company greater profitability, and b) that you use market terminology to describe in any useful sense software that is neither bought nor sold. No profitability means market terminology, like market share or sales, is irrelevant to the equation. 

Btw, I'm not suggesting Google should do anything different. Obviously their strategy works very well, so long as people continue to rely on its search engine and associated adverts. We as analysts ought to be a little more careful when throwing out terms like market share, however. Stats can be twisted very easily, and without an agreement on the meanings of certain key terms, understanding becomes an elusive goal.


----------



## SINC

Repetition and the over use of nonsense and ridiculous by gt has turned most of us off this thread anyway fjnmusic. You can't win against a know-it-all.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Repetition and the over use of nonsense and ridiculous by gt has turned most of us off this thread anyway fjnmusic. You can't win against a know-it-all.


I know. It all.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Here's more from InvestorWords.com:
> 
> "Market Share" definition:
> 
> "The percentage of the total sales of a given type of product or service that are attributable to a given company."
> 
> And "Sales" Definition:
> 
> "Total dollar amount collected for goods and services provided. While payment is not necessary for recognition of sales on company financial statements, there are strict accounting guidelines stating when sales can be recognized. The basic principle is that a sale can only be recognized when the transaction is already realized, or can be quite easily realized. This means that the company should have already received a payment, or the chances of receiving a payment is high. In addition, delivery of the good or service should have taken place for the sale to be recognized."
> 
> Sure seems to be an emphasis on sales from everything I've read so far. But how do you measure the sales of an item that has not been sold, but rather given away free instead? There's no doubt that you can make a huge amount of money indirectly from the simple repetition of a message as many times as possible. When I think popcorn, I automatically think Orville Reddenbocker even though there are other brands out there. The Android overwhelms by its sheer numbers, but by rights, it should then be a more profitable brand than it actually is. Something doesn't translate. I believe that there are two wrong assumptions here: a) that greater activations of a free OS gives the company greater profitability, and b) that you use market terminology to describe in any useful sense software that is neither bought nor sold. No profitability means market terminology, like market share or sales, is irrelevant to the equation.
> 
> Btw, I'm not suggesting Google should do anything different. Obviously their strategy works very well, so long as people continue to rely on its search engine and associated adverts. We as analysts ought to be a little more careful when throwing out terms like market share, however. Stats can be twisted very easily, and without an agreement on the meanings of certain key terms, understanding becomes an elusive goal.


You keep trying to to use a narrow definition of marketshare. 

I've already debunked that nonsense.

I think when stats are put out, there's different stats, ones that show handset manufacturers, some that show by platform. Since samsung, htc, etc., aren't really platform developers, how does this get addressed?

But we've already gone over this no? I don't know what exactly your point is, and why you're upset when numbers are put out by platform? Again, you are free to contact all the powers that be, and correct them all and explain that marketshare is ONLY based on sales. Try not to get laughed. But be sure to insist on only using your linked definition at investorwords! They are the only true source!!!

And Sinc, buzz off if you're merely here to throw a snipe and run off like a little coward. You're no better than macfury. Get a room.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> And Sinc, buzz off if you're merely here to throw a snipe and run off like a little coward. You're no better than macfury. Get a room.


Wasn't a snipe, it was a true observation. You have just smothered this thread with repetition and it's tiring to most. Now I will leave you to continue to dominate the thread.


----------



## groovetube

who asked you? I'm not the only one repeating myself, so is the other guy.

Now we're having a disagreement here and unless you have anything of value to add to the subject matter other than to cowardly come in here and take a personal swipe at me, take a hike.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## SINC

Name calling gets you even less respect gt.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> who asked you? I'm not the only one repeating myself, so is the other guy.
> 
> Now we're having a disagreement here and unless you have anything of value to add to the subject matter other than to cowardly come in here and take a personal swipe at me, take a hike.


Actually, I'd LIKE to hear what someone else has to say for a change. I'm certainly familiar with your opinion.


----------



## groovetube

Sinc, you came blazing here calling me a know it all. I've addressed the subject matter not the poster, now again, if you have nothing to say about the subject matter, please refrain from turning this into a personal crap fest.

Got it?


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Actually, I'd LIKE to hear what someone else has to say for a change. I'm certainly familiar with your opinion.


and I yours. I think we've both repeated ourselves multiple times.

So far someone has already disagreed with your assertion that google makes no money off of android.


----------



## fjnmusic

SINC said:


> Wasn't a snipe, it was a true observation. You have just smothered this thread with repetition and it's tiring to most. Now I will leave you to continue to dominate the thread.


+1

In a mature forum, people with differing perspectives can present very divergent points of view and still have a dialogue. But if one guy believes he owns the thread....well, there won't be a lot of dialogue going on. More like preachy pronoucements with the odd put down thrown in for good measure.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> and I yours. I think we've both repeated ourselves multiple times.
> 
> So far someone has already disagreed with your assertion that google makes no money off of android.


Oh good lord. Please let someone else have a turn.


----------



## groovetube

someone already did, but I don't know that you liked their answer.

btw why is it, you can keep replying with your posts, but somehow -I-, am the problem?

Indeed, anyone who has something valuable about the subject, other than to come in here name calling like SInc.


----------



## The Doug

.


----------



## groovetube

indeed. Once the bash crew arrives, and the other starts whining that you're posting (like he is), it's done.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> someone already did, but I don't know that you liked their answer.
> 
> btw why is it, you can keep replying with your posts, but somehow -I-, am the problem?
> 
> Indeed, anyone who has something valuable about the subject, other than to come in here name calling like SInc.


One more example of having no idea when to quit. I'm done.

Wait for it . . .


----------



## fjnmusic

I posted a theory, hoping to hear reactions from a number of people, not just the same one over and over again. Your MO seems to be, rather than offering any original ideas of your own, to shoot down other people's ideas and call them fanboi's if they don't submit to your superior wisdom. It's getting boring.

(sigh)


----------



## fjnmusic

the doug said:


> .


+1


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> I posted a theory, hoping to hear reactions from a number of people, not just the same one over and over again. Your MO seems to be, rather than offering any original ideas of your own, to shoot down other people's ideas and call them fanboi's if they don't submit to your superior wisdom. It's getting boring.
> 
> (sigh)


oh come now, fanboi (I refered to the opinion not you as), and what was I, right...obtuse? You want to play victim here?

Look if you can't handle yourself in a discussion then fine. But don't pretend you didn't resort to name calling or repeated yourself any less than I did. I don't believe I called you any names. If I did you can certainly point out where and I would apologize.

But being called obtuse, or a 'know it all' from Sinc, well, honestly, it's water off a duck's back.

I was fine to let this die unfortunately the pair came in here name calling and now you're somehow the victim of a bad thread.

wow.


----------



## gmark2000

Can we please re-boot this topic? Let get this back to sensical discussion about RIM and its products. I would hate to have to lock this thread down.


----------



## Macfury

One observation I have regarding an early comment by screature about why some people tend to really get down on RIM now that it's floundering. I tend to get that way myself when I feel that people have so destroyed something valuable that there's no longer any hope. I turn from proud supporter to almost wishing the enterprise to its rapid doom, because watching its death agonies is too painful. I would love to see a RIM turnaround, but nothing they are doing right now looks hopeful. 


Regarding the idea of market share, I suspect that even free products are part of the overall market, in that they occupy a piece of equipment that would otherwise be occupied by a paid product. Even the television market consists of free over-the-air signals and signals available only through digital cable--yet together they form the market.

What say you, fjnmusic?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> One observation I have regarding an early comment by screature about why some people tend to really get down on RIM now that it's floundering. I tend to get that way myself when I feel that people have so destroyed something valuable that there's no longer any hope. I turn from proud supporter to almost wishing the enterprise to its rapid doom, because watching its death agonies is too painful. I would love to see a RIM turnaround, but nothing they are doing right now looks hopeful.
> 
> 
> Regarding the idea of market share, I suspect that even free products are part of the overall market, in that they occupy a piece of equipment that would otherwise be occupied by a paid product. Even the television market consists of free over-the-air signals and signals available only through digital cable--yet together they form the market.
> 
> What say you, fjnmusic?


I say good point, Macfury. Even iTunes could be argued to be a freely distributed piece of software through which people make purchases, and there is no question that iTunes dominates the music market and much of the video market as well. At least for people who are willing to pay for media, that is. It is similar to Android in that the distribution of the software does not turn a profit_ in and of itself_, but it makes it possible to sell other stuff. For Apple, it's a three-step process: it's not iTunes or the media it sells that actually makes the company a profit, but rather the devices, be they computers, iPods or what not that they make a handsome markup on.

What I find astounding is the attitude among certain media outlets that because the Android OS is so prevalent, somehow it represents a threat to Apple's success with iOS, when clearly Apple is still taking the lion's share of the profits. It's like the old Windows argument regarding market share; how does a company like Apple with such small market share make so much profit? Well, if you look at computers costing more than $1000, for example, they have something like 90% market share. They sell to the people who have money and are willing to spend it, who purchase music, who purchase apps, and who don't mind spending money if they believe they're getting something of value in return. This simple fact goes a long way to explaining how Apple weathered the last recession fairly well while other businesses were dying. 

As far as RIM goes, it appears from the letter from the RIM employee that was posted last month that RIM's management is is total denial about the problems it is having. Witness the sad tablet that is the Playbook and how little support it has received, even from its own people, and you can see that Apple's headstart on the iPad (probably about seven or eight years) makes it really hard for anyone else to catch up, let alone pass it in innovation. Many different business models, to be sure, but some of them work better than others. Apple is the one to beat right now.


----------



## groovetube

well, there you have it. marketshare isn't necessarily defined by the cost of the product, or service. Business models have drastically changed the last couple decades, and marketshare is a bit of a different animal. There is a reason why Steve Jobs was so incredibly incensed by google's android.

As far as RIM is concerned, I have little hope for them now. They're upcoming products -look- good, and sound good, but if it's poorly executed as the playbook was, which seems quite likely they're going down. Too bad.


----------



## fjnmusic

Darn it. I happen to agree with GT's last post. It was more fun when we were fighting.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Darn it. I happen to agree with GT's last post. It was more fun when we were fighting.


See, it isn't all bad.


----------



## groovetube

Analyst keen on RIM, sees shares as ‘absurdly oversold’ - The Globe and Mail

Interesting that someone has faith in the stock. Expensive gamble.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> Analyst keen on RIM, sees shares as ‘absurdly oversold’ - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Interesting that someone has faith in the stock. Expensive gamble.


Well looking at RIM's past stock price it has gone up and down like this before, so if history tells you anything it might be a good buy right now.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## screature

MazterCBlazter said:


> Today RIM announced that they will open up their secure network for use with the iPhone and other smart phones.
> 
> The stock is very under valued. If they do some smart moves they can take a bigger market share and they stock value and revenues could go onto a significant upward trend.
> 
> Apple was a few months away form going under. Investors had written it off. Then Steve Jobs came back and Apple went to the top providing the world with fabulous must have top notch products and strategies.


RIM doesn't seem to have a Steve Jobs and RIM's business model is very much narrower than Apple's... RIM seems to be in bigger trouble unfortunately....

When Apple was in trouble they started innovating and expanding into new markets... If RIM doesn't have the depth to start doing that then I fear they are in very big trouble indeed...

There is no way I would invest in them right now as I have been down a similar path with Nortel in the past....

If RIM can't demonstrate that they can develop new producs and product lines to expand from where there are now things look bad indeed.

But I am saddened by this... It means loses of a great many good paying Canadian jobs. 

As having been a victim of a Can/Us merger company that shed almost one thousand well paying Canadian jobs I cannot be anything other than remorseful for RIM and their employees (especially Canadian)....

On another front I really *hate * the title of this thread becuase it seems to take glee in other people's suffering both investors and employees...

Companies are made up of real people with real families to feed and not some abstract concept as supporters of the OWS movement would seem to suggest... like the failure of a corporation has no repercussions except for the over paid executives...

I for one can tell you from first hand experience that for every paid CEO and other executive that you so gleefully cheer their demise you are also cheering the loss of hundreds if not thousands of good jobs for common folk like yourself.


----------



## groovetube

I don't think anyone was cheering the CEO or executive's demise.


----------



## hayesk

screature said:


> Companies are made up of real people with real families to feed and not some abstract concept as supporters of the OWS movement would seem to suggest... like the failure of a corporation has no repercussions except for the over paid executives...
> 
> I for one can tell you from first hand experience that for every paid CEO and other executive that you so gleefully cheer their demise you are also cheering the loss of hundreds if not thousands of good jobs for common folk like yourself.


Those same executives will outsource those high paying jobs in a heartbeat if they feel they can. So sorry, don't expect any sympathy for your typical CEO. I watched it happen. I've seen employees assigned to train their Indian counterparts and them see their department laid off while outsourcing increased. These same CEOs and executives collected Hughes bonuses while they collected R&D tax breaks from the Canadian Government.

And you bring OWS into this. This is one of the things OWS is protesting.

But no, I don't cheer for the demise of the corporation. But, back on topic, RIM's CEOs continue to prove themselves to be incompetent in a changing marketplace. They've got to go. Replace them with competent CEOs and you'll see more high paying jobs.


----------



## hayesk

MazterCBlazter said:


> Apple was a few months away form going under. Investors had written it off. Then Steve Jobs came back and Apple went to the top providing the world with fabulous must have top notch products and strategies.


Apple wasn't in that much trouble. They had billions in the bank at the time, and those "hemmoraging losses" were due to write downs from Amelio cleaning house, not actual operating losses. Their market share was also at a high not eclipsed until only this past quarter. Apple had a PR problem, but not a financial one. They were certainly not a few months away from going under.


----------



## groovetube

hayesk said:


> Those same executives will outsource those high paying jobs in a heartbeat if they feel they can. So sorry, don't expect any sympathy for your typical CEO. I watched it happen. I've seen employees assigned to train their Indian counterparts and them see their department laid off while outsourcing increased. These same CEOs and executives collected Hughes bonuses while they collected R&D tax breaks from the Canadian Government.
> 
> And you bring OWS into this. This is one of the things OWS is protesting.
> 
> But no, I don't cheer for the demise of the corporation. But, back on topic, RIM's CEOs continue to prove themselves to be incompetent in a changing marketplace. They've got to go. Replace them with competent CEOs and you'll see more high paying jobs.


+1.

This is precisely, what is occurring where my wife works. Almost verbatim. Also aware of it happening at a few clients as well. The layoffs are still occurring bigtime.

Corporate interests, are not human interests. It's merely a happy accident when they collide.


----------



## Joker Eh

hayesk said:


> Apple wasn't in that much trouble. They had billions in the bank at the time, and those "hemmoraging losses" were due to write downs from Amelio cleaning house, not actual operating losses. Their market share was also at a high not eclipsed until only this past quarter. Apple had a PR problem, but not a financial one. They were certainly not a few months away from going under.


Well you would be contradicting what Steve Jobs has said publicly numerous times and why would he take an investment from Microsoft and publicly thank Bill Gates?


----------



## Joker Eh

screature said:


> On another front I really *hate * the title of this thread becuase it seems to take glee in other people's suffering both investors and employees...


I don't take glee in anyone lose of a job. No way never have and never will. But this thread was started when they first released the Playbook and *it is a joke*. How someone in management who made the decisions to release what they did is a joke and it may not have been the co-ceo's you made the decision.

Still when you are not first on the market you have to be better than what is out there in the marketplace and to not have BBM and Email on the Playbook when it was released is a colossus failure.

When you release a new product you have to please your current fan base and most importantly you have to win new fans. Just the same way Apple did with me and the iPhone. I am now on my second iPhone, have a MBP 13" also a Apple TV 2, will get the next iPhone (5), iPad (3), Apple TV (3), and maybe even a new MBP. And I like the iMac.

So how and what has RIM done to convince me anyone that they are on the right path? You seen their share go up on news of the release of an update to their Enterprise software. So is that their place in the market? Maybe.


----------



## screature

hayesk said:


> Those same executives will outsource those high paying jobs in a heartbeat if they feel they can.* So sorry, don't expect any sympathy for your typical CEO*. I watched it happen. I've seen employees assigned to train their Indian counterparts and them see their department laid off while outsourcing increased. These same CEOs and executives collected Hughes bonuses while they collected R&D tax breaks from the Canadian Government.
> 
> And you bring OWS into this. This is one of the things OWS is protesting.
> 
> But no, I don't cheer for the demise of the corporation. But, back on topic, RIM's CEOs continue to prove themselves to be incompetent in a changing marketplace. They've got to go. Replace them with competent CEOs and you'll see more high paying jobs.


You obviously completely missed my point if you thought I was suggesting sympathy for CEOs...


----------



## Joker Eh

hayesk said:


> Those same executives will outsource those high paying jobs in a heartbeat if they feel they can. So sorry, don't expect any sympathy for your typical CEO. I watched it happen. I've seen employees assigned to train their Indian counterparts and them see their department laid off while outsourcing increased. These same CEOs and executives collected Hughes bonuses while they collected R&D tax breaks from the Canadian Government.
> 
> And you bring OWS into this. This is one of the things OWS is protesting.
> 
> But no, I don't cheer for the demise of the corporation. But, back on topic, RIM's CEOs continue to prove themselves to be incompetent in a changing marketplace. They've got to go. *Replace them with competent CEOs and you'll see more high paying jobs*.


Don't bet on it. You would have a better chance a winning the lottery.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## bryanc

It appears that RIM is thinking along the lines of transitioning from a hardware/software/services company into a Microsoft-like software/service company that may do a little hardware on the side.

If Apple's iMessage doesn't take off and kill BBM, this may be a viable strategy. Certainly, it appears that their days as a major hardware vendor are over, so rather than continuing to get pummelled by iOS and Android devices, they're better off trying to sell their software and services on those platforms. This still represents a major defeat for RIM, and if they wind up pulling out of the hardware business, there will be lots of job losses. But it's better to survive as a smaller company that has some prospects for growth, than to be killed as a giant that couldn't adapt.


----------



## groovetube

Hacker finds ‘Mack truck’ hole in PlayBook’s security - The Globe and Mail

oh the bad news keeps on comin. The playbook is turning out to be quite the problem for RIM.


----------



## SINC

Man that's gotta hurt right now given their other issues.


----------



## Bjornbro

Macfury said:


> ...why some people tend to really get down on RIM now that it's floundering.


*I'm not sure, but isn't the reason "why some people (read Canadian ehMac members) tend to really get down on RIM now that it's floundering" because back in the old days, Macheads were largely ignored in terms of support for implementing BlackBerrys on a Mac? So... a reciprocal "forget you" has com from the (eh)Mac herd and a sense of Schadenfreude has ensued.

(*My preception, I have no clue and never used any of RIM's handsets.)


----------



## groovetube

no question that you are bang on in that.


----------



## Bjornbro

bryanc said:


> It appears that RIM is thinking along the lines of transitioning from a hardware/software/services company into a Microsoft-like software/service company that may do a little hardware on the side.


Why not, it worked for Sega?


----------



## keebler27

SINC said:


> Man that's gotta hurt right now given their other issues.


i'm sure this doesn't help either.

and their stock options are probably not worth all that much in order to cash out to pay for this! yikes!


RIM workers charged for drunken antics on flight - Crime - Canoe.ca


----------



## fjnmusic




----------



## SINC

And the soap opera continues:

RIM PlayBook sales hurt earnings targets


----------



## whatiwant

Hubris is a b*tch.


----------



## gmark2000

That's almost a half billion dollar writedown. If they liquidate at $99 I'll get one as a movie player in the car for the kids.


----------



## keebler27

wow. and the beat goes on. This is a kick in the nuts when down. Perhaps not a major one, but embarrassing :

CANOE -- Technology: RIM walks away from BBX name


----------



## Puccasaurus

keebler27 said:


> wow. and the beat goes on. This is a kick in the nuts when down. Perhaps not a major one, but embarrassing :
> 
> CANOE -- Technology: RIM walks away from BBX name


Maybe they should call it OS X....oh, wait.


----------



## CubaMark

*RIM outlook grim as it reports earnings*



> Troubled BlackBerry maker Research in Motion will update its finances on Thursday, likely reporting shrinking profits and reduced global revenue growth from its aging lineup of smartphones and dismal sales of its PlayBook tablet.
> 
> After announcing a big charge on its books a few weeks ago, RIM's profits are expected to erode sharply when the company discloses its latest quarterly earnings after Canadian and U.S. stock markets close.
> 
> "They are profitable. It's just that their levels of profitability are shrinking," said William Blair & Co. analyst Anil Doradla.


(CBC)


----------



## bryanc

*more salt in the wounds...*

It seems that RIM's executive team is under a little stress.

One can only speculate regarding wether the catastrophic performance of RIM over the past couple of years is the result of leadership like this, or wether the epic mental meltdowns exhibited by these nut cases is the result of the chronic failure of everything RIM has been doing.

But going nuts on a plane and forcing an emergency landing is clearly not the behaviour of the sorts of competent professionals who could pull RIM out of it's nose-dive.


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> Someone could intercept your email without you knowing and read your email.
> 
> There is a difference when using RIM email and messages. They are one of the most secure forms of communication. Their encryption is one of the toughest to break, I don't know if it has been done. That's why countries are asking RIM for its encryption key so that they can view emails and messages being sent and received within their borders.
> 
> That's why I am saying they should focus on that and sell the service for other devices other than BB.


It's funny I looked at the beginning of this thread, and it appears joker BB was thinking the same thing.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> It's funny I looked at the beginning of this thread, and it appears joker BB was thinking the same thing.


You think I will get a call from them so they can hire me to help them and give them other ideas to improve their business.  jk


----------



## Joker Eh

bryanc said:


> It seems that RIM's executive team is under a little stress.
> 
> One can only speculate regarding wether the catastrophic performance of RIM over the past couple of years is the result of leadership like this, or wether the epic mental meltdowns exhibited by these nut cases is the result of the chronic failure of everything RIM has been doing.
> 
> But going nuts on a plane and forcing an emergency landing is clearly not the behaviour of the sorts of competent professionals who could pull RIM out of it's nose-dive.


This is a couple of weeks old news and it could happen to anyone (I think).


----------



## bryanc

Joker Eh said:


> This is a couple of weeks old news and it could happen to anyone (I think).


Yes, I missed it earlier. But firstly, I don't think getting so drunk you need to be physically restrained (and then chewing through the restraints) and thereby forcing an international flight to make an emergency landing is something that "could happen to anyone". Furthermore, it didn't happen to just one RIM executive, but two of them. This suggests some serious mental issues in Waterloo.


----------



## groovetube

RIM chiefs’ salaries cut to $1 a year - The Globe and Mail

There was that line in Lightfoot's song The wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald , fellahs it's too rough to feed ya, and then, a couple lines later, he says, fellahs, it's been good ta know yahs.


----------



## screature

bryanc said:


> Yes, I missed it earlier. But firstly, I don't think getting so drunk you need to be physically restrained (and then chewing through the restraints) and thereby forcing an international flight to make an emergency landing is something that "could happen to anyone". Furthermore, it didn't happen to just one RIM executive, but two of them. *This suggests some serious mental issues in Waterloo.*


It must be bad water... what is the Liberal government doing to resolve this obvious failure of responsibility...


----------



## Dennis Nedry

[deleted]


----------



## screature

Dennis Nedry said:


> RIM: BlackBerry 10 smartphones won't arrive until end of 2012 -- Engadget
> 
> ...
> 
> That's some strategy there. Don't look for alternatives or redesign the product. Just delay it for a year.
> 
> -DN


They are in serious trouble... luckily (for them) the worldwide economy is in the dumps otherwise they would be seriously f***ed... as it is they are just in really big trouble... They need to come up with something big soon or there are truly doomed...

I will shed tears for a failed home grown company that would have squandered their dominant position in enterprise circles, but on the other hand if they can't compete due to lack of innovation, then their failure is warranted and expected...

But wait... Maybe the government should bail them out and give them $500 M or so... just to keep them buoyant until they get their legs to save Canadian jobs.


----------



## Joker Eh

Dennis Nedry said:


> RIM: BlackBerry 10 smartphones won't arrive until end of 2012 -- Engadget
> 
> ...
> 
> That's some strategy there. Don't look for alternatives or redesign the product. Just delay it for a year.
> 
> -DN


This is the whole problem. They release bad news after bad news after bad news. If there is one thing companies should copy from Apple is their policy to not release any information. None. Keep your mouth shut let people talk about you and guess at what is coming out even when it is good or bad. Look at this year with the release of iPhone 4S every single blogger/site had Apple releasing a totally new iPhone 5. Didn't happen and Apple still kept their mouths shut and haven't explained anything to anyone. People thought they would release a iPad 3 by xmas this year, nope. See Apple gets free publicity by keeping their mouths shut.

RIM now has made themselves irrelevant for another full year. Just keep your mouth shut. No news is good news.


----------



## Joker Eh

screature said:


> It must be bad water... what is the Liberal government doing to resolve this obvious failure of responsibility...


Hey what happened screature? Have a change of heart were you having a bad day before?  jk (just kidding)

from the Nova Scotia thread


screature said:


> Nope. Can't say I would support such a thread... I will never appreciate/support such a wholesale discrimination thread.... (even though I know where you are coming from SINC)
> 
> Some choose to laugh and say "I am taking it too seriously"... the fact of the matter is threads with this kind of title are insulting anyway you cut it...
> 
> *Personally I will not respond to any thread that says "... you are such a joke now" from now on as it is not meant as a joke and is meant in all seriousness.*
> The subject of this thread has merit on an issues basis, but not with the title it has now....
> 
> I really wonder what the response would be if the title of a thread were, "Attawapiskat you are such a joke now".
> 
> If Joker Eh can't see where I am coming from then fine, he can continue to start threads that fit in with his moniker all he likes, I for one will always feel they are childish and prejudice... not funny in the least or were they ever intended to be.


----------



## WCraig

screature said:


> They are in serious trouble... luckily (for them) the worldwide economy is in the dumps otherwise they would be seriously f***ed... as it is they are just in really big trouble... They need to come up with something big soon or there are truly doomed...
> 
> I will shed tears for a failed home grown company that would have squandered their dominant position in enterprise circles, but on the other hand if they can't compete due to lack of innovation, then their failure is warranted and expected...
> 
> But wait... Maybe the government should bail them out and give them $500 M or so... just to keep them buoyant until they get their legs to save Canadian jobs.


From RIM's press release:
http://www.rim.com/investors/documents/pdf/pressrelease/2012/Q3_press_release.pdf



> Waterloo, ON – Research In Motion Limited (RIM) (Nasdaq: RIMM; TSX: RIM), a world leader in the mobile communications market, today reported third quarter results for the three months ended November 26, 2011 (all figures in U.S. dollars and U.S. GAAP, except where otherwise indicated).
> Highlights:
> -	Revenue of $5.2 billion, up 24% from last quarter
> -	BlackBerry smartphone shipments of 14.1 million, up 33% from Q2
> -	GAAP net income of $265 million or $0.51 per share diluted; adjusted net income of $667 million or $1.27 per share diluted
> -	Subscribers up 35% year-over-year to almost 75 million
> -	Cash flow from operations of approximately $895 million
> -	Total of cash, cash equivalents, short-term and long-term investments of $1.5 billion


Virtually unreported, RIM made a profit in the last 3 months, generated $900 million of cash from operations, has no debt and has $1.5 billion of ready funds available.

Apple, during its "crisis", had very similar results. RIM has quite sufficient resources to execute a turnaround. I think they need to put the PlayBook behind them and focus on what made them successful in the past. With their business model, they don't have to be number 1 in units sold. They keep making money every month through their proprietary data service. 

You can get a $zero BlackBerry and pay $15-20 LESS per month than an iPhone with data plan. It is still the most popular choice with high school students--or so my 15 yo tells me.

Craig


----------



## groovetube

WCraig said:


> From RIM's press release:
> http://www.rim.com/investors/documents/pdf/pressrelease/2012/Q3_press_release.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Virtually unreported, RIM made a profit in the last 3 months, generated $900 million of cash from operations, has no debt and has $1.5 billion of ready funds available.
> 
> Apple, during its "crisis", had very similar results. RIM has quite sufficient resources to execute a turnaround. I think they need to put the PlayBook behind them and focus on what made them successful in the past. With their business model, they don't have to be number 1 in units sold. They keep making money every month through their proprietary data service.
> 
> You can get a $zero BlackBerry and pay $15-20 LESS per month than an iPhone with data plan. It is still the most popular choice with high school students--or so my 15 yo tells me.
> 
> Craig


This is very true. BBM is very popular in the high school area. My niece and nephews and, their friends make fun of my iphone all the time.

It seems bleak though for anyone at rim to stop the bleeding.


----------



## keebler27

groovetube said:


> This is very true. BBM is very popular in the high school area. My niece and nephews and, their friends make fun of my iphone all the time.
> 
> It seems bleak though for anyone at rim to stop the bleeding.


They can buy an app to use BBM or send BBM with their BBM friends. I completely forget the name though 

Oh and here's another RIM dark story. I'm beginning to wonder if they're doing this on purpose to decrease their stock so someone will buy them.

This is just awful for their shareholders.

CANOE -- Technology: BlackBerry delay darkens RIM's future


----------



## eMacMan

*Insurance scam???*

Or just dumb criminals?



> *$1.7m Worth Of BlackBerry PlayBooks Stolen*
> 
> By Tony Ibrahim | Monday | 19/12/2011
> 
> Thieves have stolen a semi-trailer carrying $1.7 million worth of BlackBerry PlayBook stock.
> 
> An Indiana Cargo driver on the way to RIM's home province of Ontario stopped to get food and had his truck stolen. On board were 22 palettes worth of BlackBerry's 7 inch PlayBook tablet.
> 
> *Electronista claim it's doubtful that the truck would be recovered as the shipment didn't have GPS tracking.*
> 
> The FBI's interstate Theft Task Force heard the tablets were heading to Miami but at present don't have any suspects.
> 
> Sales of PlayBook tablets have picked up following a dramatic drop in price from its original US$499 to just US$199. The company is hopeful the new price will help boost sales after shipping a dismal 150,000 PlayBooks last quarter.


$1.7m Worth Of BlackBerry PlayBooks Stolen - Smarthouse


----------



## groovetube

I think "DOH!" will be uttered in this case.

I've been testing something due out this week and I have to say, getting the blackberry simulator to work has been a real time hog. Not much support either.

A big fail there. iOS, android, no problem.


----------



## hayesk

groovetube said:


> I think "DOH!" will be uttered in this case.
> 
> I've been testing something due out this week and I have to say, getting the blackberry simulator to work has been a real time hog. Not much support either.
> 
> A big fail there. iOS, android, no problem.


Agreed. RIM is almost developer hostile. Little or no support, and you would think they made it hard on purpose to get their development tools downloaded and set up.


----------



## groovetube

hayesk said:


> Agreed. RIM is almost developer hostile. Little or no support, and you would think they made it hard on purpose to get their development tools downloaded and set up.


I have to say I'm a little surprised. It took me 2 hours to get it running, I ended up using my wife's work 9900 for a while. Apple's development setup is vastly superior. What the hell is wrong with these RIM people? Even Android for all it's warts is way better.


----------



## fjnmusic

Damning with faint praise--I like it!


----------



## whatiwant

eMacMan said:


> Or just dumb criminals?
> 
> 
> 
> $1.7m Worth Of BlackBerry PlayBooks Stolen - Smarthouse


Does a loophole exist that would allow RIM to claim retail worth for these with their insurance company? Hehe


----------



## eMacMan

From our friends at joyoftech.com
The Joy of Tech comic... recharging your funnybone's battery.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> $1.7m Worth Of BlackBerry PlayBooks Stolen - Smarthouse


The truckload was worth only $1.2 million by the time it got close to its destination.


----------



## CplHoward

eMacMan said:


> From our friends at joyoftech.com
> The Joy of Tech comic... recharging your funnybone's battery.
> View attachment 22313


That was awesome. I used to have a crack berry. The only thing good about it was the battery was replaceable. (Every 3 months and to the tune of $90)


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Damning with faint praise--I like it!


faint?


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> faint?


The Android with the warts and all part. It's like the guy talking to the girl at the dance: "I realize I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel and all, but do you wanna dance?"


----------



## groovetube

it was a little tongue in cheek. Android is pretty damn friendly to devs in general. Just -apparently, android sucks the chrome off a tailpipe.


----------



## Rps

i guess i am in the minority here...i have a bb bold and love the thing. i bought it based on my prior experience with a bb...i have dropped it incase from 60 feet at work, had it run over , banged and bashed and it still worked...so when i upgraded i purchased based on my past experience,and yes i did tbink about an iphone...but bought based on myexperience. i have a bb playbook...32gig which i bought for under$300 and i reallylike it....however i amnot an app person so it's size and features meet my needs.

as for rim,they arenot dead yet....they are debt free, have about $1B in cash.....do do agree with a prior poster they may fall the way of palm, but i think they should be able to turn it around. it wasn't that long ago that it was rumored that apple was onthe rocks and Jobs turned them around... i hope that bb can do the same.


----------



## bryanc

Rps said:


> as for rim,they arenot dead yet....they are debt free, have about $1B in cash.....do do agree with a prior poster they may fall the way of palm, but i think they should be able to turn it around. it wasn't that long ago that it was rumored that apple was onthe rocks and Jobs turned them around...


There were a few big differences; Apple wasn't trying to compete against companies like Google and Apple who are making great products that people love and are continually innovating and improving their game. Back in the mid 90's Apple was able to carve out a niche at least partly because Microsoft was fat and lazy, and didn't care about innovating (not to mention the fact that Microsoft needed Apple around to keep the DOJ at bay). Secondly, Apple was never in the kind of trouble RIM is in now; sure they were dying, but it was a slow death rather than the feeding frenzy that RIM is in the middle of right now. Finally, and most importantly, Apple had Steve Jobs - a charismatic and visionary leader that gave the company the laser-like focus it needed to get back in the game. RIM has got not just one, but two of the most demonstrably ineffective and clueless CEOs in the history of the tech industry; it' like they're actively trying to run the company into the ground.

I not only don't see them recovering, I predict they'll be purchased at a fire sale price before 2012 is over.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> There were a few big differences; Apple wasn't trying to compete against companies like Google and Apple who are making great products that people love and are continually innovating and improving their game. Back in the mid 90's Apple was able to carve out a niche at least partly because Microsoft was fat and lazy, and didn't care about innovating (not to mention the fact that Microsoft needed Apple around to keep the DOJ at bay). Secondly, Apple was never in the kind of trouble RIM is in now; sure they were dying, but it was a slow death rather than the feeding frenzy that RIM is in the middle of right now. Finally, and most importantly, Apple had Steve Jobs - a charismatic and visionary leader that gave the company the laser-like focus it needed to get back in the game. RIM has got not just one, but two of the most demonstrably ineffective and clueless CEOs in the history of the tech industry; it' like they're actively trying to run the company into the ground.
> 
> I not only don't see them recovering, I predict they'll be purchased at a fire sale price before 2012 is over.


I would disagree pretty much with your entire post except for when you get to apple having steve jobs. That's where the real difference lies. Apple was in far worse condition when SJ took over compared to RIM.

If rim were actually able to execute a well planned product roadmap, they may have a chance. I don't see it, not at this point.


----------



## Joker Eh

bryanc said:


> Secondly, Apple was never in the kind of trouble RIM is in now; sure they were dying, but it was a slow death rather than the feeding frenzy that RIM is in the middle of right now.


According to Jobs himself the company was months from declaring bankruptcy and with Jobs going directly to Bill Gates and the help of Microsoft investing in Apple Jobs was able to turn around Apple when he returned. He cleaned house and created a vision and a clean and simple product. The iPod. So Apple was in much more trouble than RIM is in. Like you said RIM has cash, Apple did not when Job came back.



bryanc said:


> Finally, and most importantly, Apple had Steve Jobs - a charismatic and visionary leader that gave the company the laser-like focus it needed to get back in the game.


Apple did not have Jobs while they were failing. Remember Jobs was kicked out.


----------



## dona83

My brother and sister were Blackberry diehards for the past five years, my sister in particular kept on upgrading to the latest and greatest model every year. My sister moved to the iPhone 4 shortly after buying an iPad 2, and my brother moved some Samsung Android phone.

Most of my coworkers remain faithful to the Blackberry but two have switched to Android. 

Some of these new Android phones with these huge 4.5" 720p screens are pretty neat, would make an awesome Netflix viewing experience, but I wouldn't give up my iPhone for one ever again.


----------



## hayesk

Joker Eh said:


> According to Jobs himself the company was months from declaring bankruptcy and with Jobs going directly to Bill Gates and the help of Microsoft investing in Apple Jobs was able to turn around Apple when he returned.


Jobs was using hyperbole. No doubt Apple had a big PR problem, but their financials weren't as bad as people claim. Without Jobs and the Microsoft PR stunt, Apple would have held on for a couple more years, at least.


----------



## Joker Eh

hayesk said:


> Jobs was using hyperbole. No doubt Apple had a big PR problem, but their financials weren't as bad as people claim. Without Jobs and the Microsoft PR stunt, Apple would have held on for a couple more years, at least.


Why would he lie? He didn't just say it once, he had mentioned it a couple of times. A PR Stunt? So he lied that he didn't ask Microsoft and Bill Gates for money?


----------



## groovetube

RIM turns down Amazon merger advancements: sources - The Globe and Mail

hmm, seems a merger isn't happening. The mention of microsoft didn't surprise me. It still wouldn't when we wake up one day and M$ bought them.


----------



## bryanc

groovetube said:


> It still wouldn't when we wake up one day and M$ bought them.


Google is my bet; Android needs something like BBM, and Google has the servers to manage it effectively.


----------



## MacDoc

Without knowing a whole lot of detail turning down Amazon seems seriously stupid.
I suspect top management was trying to save their own necks rather than best interests of staff and shareholders. That's my optics.
Of course the devil is in the details

"RIM Circling the drain" was one article header.....commenting on this

BlackBerry delay darkens RIM's future | Reuters


----------



## Joker Eh

bryanc said:


> Google is my bet; Android needs something like BBM, and Google has the servers to manage it effectively.


No way. Android open no security vs Blackberry full security, it will never happen. Don't think m$ has the servers? You think they are new to this game?

M$ needs them more. M$ has stated they are disappointed with the sales of Windows phones. I just don't see how M$ would benefit. Gobble up RIM just for BBM, hmmm seems unlikely when M$ could build their own just like Apple did.

RIM can't design anything new that would wow the market now. I watched a commercial yesterday from RIM touting a NEW Blackberry Bold, huh? It looks the same as the old one and it said nothing about what was new with the phone so how is someone supposed to get excited about it?

And IMHO they have too many models of phones, trim it down. 2 versions of Bold, 2 versions of Torch, 2 version of Curve, then the Style and the Pearl. I think they should only have 2 models. One with the keyboard on front and the other with touch screen and slide out full keyboard. Sometimes K.I.S.S. works.

Edit: Sorry I was wrong they have 26 models of phones, holy crap. 26 freaking models, how does someone choose without having to breakout a spreadsheet.


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> No way. Android open no security vs Blackberry full security, it will never happen. Don't think m$ has the servers? You think they are new to this game?
> 
> M$ needs them more. M$ has stated they are disappointed with the sales of Windows phones. I just don't see how M$ would benefit. Gobble up RIM just for BBM, hmmm seems unlikely when M$ could build their own just like Apple did.
> 
> RIM can't design anything new that would wow the market now. I watched a commercial yesterday from RIM touting a NEW Blackberry Bold, huh? It looks the same as the old one and it said nothing about what was new with the phone so how is someone supposed to get excited about it?
> 
> And IMHO they have too many models of phones, trim it down. 2 versions of Bold, 2 versions of Torch, 2 version of Curve, then the Style and the Pearl. I think they should only have 2 models. One with the keyboard on front and the other with touch screen and slide out full keyboard. Sometimes K.I.S.S. works.
> 
> Edit: Sorry I was wrong they have 26 models of phones, holy crap. 26 freaking models, how does someone choose without having to breakout a spreadsheet.


I don't know about that. Google is also a very good bet. Perhaps motorola buys it with google holding the strings.

But the trouble with both google and M$ is that being OS suppliers, they both risk alienating OEMs.


----------



## CplHoward

The biggest thing for BBM users I think is the corporate connection they hold. A lot of businesses use crack berries simply because of the way they integrate with their exchange servers. Not saying its the only manufacturer that does it, I know as a fact that Androids can do it. Apple phones.. Well I don't know honestly. 

As well, government. Most of the government uses blackberry in all branches from what I've seen. That might not seem like much, but easily 20k or more every couple of years.

Could I see M$ buying RIM out? Yeah. I could.

M$ has released phones before, most of them being failures. Why? Im not an expert but my opinion is this:

M$ has always dabbled and wanted a piece of the mobile world. Windows 8 seems to put the emphasis on the direction that the company wants to go. Cloud type computing, with an emphasis on touch. The big problem seems to be hardware.

Like I said m$ has already produced phones, but not a phone itself. Just an OS to run on that particular phone. HTC, Nokia and Samsungs all make a model that sports the OS, but there isn't a Microsoft phone out there so to speak. So if m$ wanted to make all the profit off a phone and have a data network in a very short time, buying rim would be the way to do it instead of starting from square one.

Buy the tech, revamp it, put your own os on it and you could instantly have a good market chunk if they fixed the issues. 

The question is: Is m$ willing to put a trampoline under a company thats already falling?

Going on with what Joker's saying, I can totally agree. They have way too many phones and they are all stupidly priced. Make 3 phones. An entry level mode (200 bucks or so), a mid-range one (3-400) and a premium phone( 4-600). Not 20 some models starting at $350. 

I think Apple too could use that logic. Why do I have an android phone? Well honestly I wanted an I phone 4s. Until I saw the price tag. And of course, they put the iPhone right between all of the other smartphones, so I went with the $250 htc phone. I think if they can make an iPod touch for 200, they should be able to make a phone for $250. (Even the old 8gb 3GS is $375.00)

//rant


----------



## groovetube

if M$ bought them, they'd eventually kill the hardware side and integrate the whole blackberry corporate thing into their eco system. M$ is a king in corporate, and it would be an attempt to halt both google and apple in corporate.

Hardware is RIMs problem really right now. They're stuck in pre 2008 and they can't seem to rise out of it.


----------



## CplHoward

groovetube said:


> if M$ bought them, they'd eventually kill the hardware side and integrate the whole blackberry corporate thing into their eco system. M$ is a king in corporate, and it would be an attempt to halt both google and apple in corporate.
> 
> Hardware is RIMs problem really right now. They're stuck in pre 2008 and they can't seem to rise out of it.


I will definitely agree with the pre 2008 part.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> if M$ bought them, they'd eventually kill the hardware side and integrate the whole blackberry corporate thing into their eco system. M$ is a king in corporate, and it would be an attempt to halt both google and apple in corporate.
> 
> Hardware is RIMs problem really right now. They're stuck in pre 2008 and they can't seem to rise out of it.


Perhaps that is the correct approach...get out of the hardware and concentrate on the secure network and software. There is a reason why much of big business is still standing by the whole "Blackberry" infrastructure...but how much longer, that is the question.

Plenty of hardware makers out there who are better poised to create complementary products. Open the RIM network to other phones and reap the profits.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> if M$ bought them, they'd eventually kill the hardware side and integrate the whole blackberry corporate thing into their eco system. M$ is a king in corporate, and it would be an attempt to halt both google and apple in corporate.
> 
> Hardware is RIMs problem really right now. They're stuck in pre 2008 and they can't seem to rise out of it.


+1



kps said:


> Perhaps that is the correct approach...get out of the hardware and concentrate on the secure network and software. There is a reason why much of big business is still standing by the whole "Blackberry" infrastructure...but how much longer, that is the question.
> 
> Plenty of hardware makers out there who are better poised to create complementary products. Open the RIM network to other phones and reap the profits.


I have said this from the beginning of this thread. And you can see that change already with RIM.


----------



## kps

Joker Eh said:


> +1
> 
> 
> 
> I have said this from the beginning of this thread. And you can see that change already with RIM.


Sorry I haven't been following the tread too close. Didn't mean to steal your thunder in any way...


----------



## Joker Eh

kps said:


> Sorry I haven't been following the tread too close. Didn't mean to steal your thunder in any way...


LOL, ,oops, not what I meant by that, more that I agree with you.


----------



## kps

Joker Eh said:


> LOL, ,oops, not what I meant by that, more that I agree with you.


No worries....it's all good.


----------



## MACenstein'sMonster

So, after all the aforementioned has been said, is now a good time to buy RIM stocks?


----------



## fjnmusic

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> So, after all the aforementioned has been said, is now a good time to buy RIM stocks?


Only if you have money you no longer need. Given the dearth of promising new products, do you honestly this stock value is going up again?


----------



## eMacMan

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> So, after all the aforementioned has been said, is now a good time to buy RIM stocks?


Sure you can file them along with your Bre-X securities.


----------



## MACenstein'sMonster

Hmmm...

So what you folks are trying to say is that this would be a "faith based investment" where logic would not be a factor......

Everyone going left so maybe I should go right, right?

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water......

Remember the Alamo?


----------



## Rps

Here is the deal on stocks....they tend flow in one direction until interrupted by some dramatic change. 
RIM would be a good stock to buy but you have time to watch the trend, you do not need to jump in now as it is 
fairly low now and will continue to be so until the dramatic change happens, that said it wont raise to dramatic
heights over night....watch the trend and if is on a continuous rise then buy....this is exactly what happened to 
apple stock, once the rising trend was established those who invested were rewarded.


----------



## fjnmusic

RIM might be a good stock to buy if they had any future, because they are cheap. But without any promising new developments, they'll either stay cheap or drop even further. Ask anybody who invested in Microsoft stock ten years ago whether it was a good investment. It may pay a dividend, but the stock's value is the same today as it was ten years ago. 

Just look at the 2 year trend on your iPhone stocks app for any stock you're curious about, or try Bloomberg for the 5 year trend. For RIM, it ain't pretty.


----------



## CplHoward

If you has some spare coin laying around, maybe a little bit. But I wouldn't bet your kids college fund on it.


----------



## Joker Eh

RIM Gains on Report of Samsung Interest - Bloomberg


----------



## groovetube

Samsung! Now there's what I call the ole reach around.

funny thing, I noticed the squabble over the '6 months' thing in the beginning, well, it's been 9 months now, and they're still kicking quite well so far for a company on the verge of vaporizing.


----------



## Dr_AL

Just saw a news headline about both Jim and Mike stepping down as co-CEO's and chairmen. Will see where this takes RIM. 


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> funny thing, I noticed the squabble over the '6 months' thing in the beginning, well, it's been 9 months now, and they're still kicking quite well so far for a company on the verge of vaporizing.


Yep. That turnaround has been something to behold. And the kids are really digging those Playbooks!


----------



## Joker Eh

Dr_AL said:


> Just saw a news headline about both Jim and Mike stepping down as co-CEO's and chairmen. Will see where this takes RIM.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


This all means a sale is not far off.


----------



## SINC

Didn't seem to help the share value much . . .

RIM shares fall after CEO shakeup - Canada - CBC News


----------



## fjnmusic

And to add insult to injury, while RIM experiences record losses, Apple seems to have passed Exxon again as the world's most valuable company.


----------



## MACenstein'sMonster

So what are we talkin' about here fellas? The boys who make the noise come in promising to move RIM out of the basement into the penthouse before sending it to the outhouse? Is that the master plan you think? The standard business practice of the day where you over inflate the value to sucker in people's money before she pops?

I wonder how much they can make the stock climb before the finale? If you wanted to invest and go for the ride you'd have to pull out before she got pregnant. That's the trick right there. Otherwise you're stuck in a bad relationship with a kid you don't want and 20 years of paying for it.

So who's in?


----------



## groovetube

From what I read, a few are.


----------



## fjnmusic

More sad evidence that when your head is too far up your own orifice, it's hard to see clearly.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/01/31/research-in-motions-new-target-market.aspx


----------



## Bjornbro

Just embarrassing. Would Apple come out with _this?_










Reminds me of the crappy poster art I made in highschool. :lmao:

(My apologies if an ehMac member made/approved it.  )


----------



## eMacMan

Bjornbro said:


> Just embarrassing. Would Apple come out with _this?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reminds me of the crappy poster art I made in highschool. :lmao:
> 
> (My apologies if an ehMac member made/approved it.  )


Should work if the target demographic is the pre-teen set.


----------



## Macfury

This might have appealed to my kid when he was a toddler. What a sad, infantalized campaign.


----------



## imnothng

I keep thinking that advert has to be a joke. It has to be, doesn't it?


----------



## fjnmusic

Oh the times, they are a-changin'...

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/02...-75-of-cell-phone-profits/?source=yahoo_quote


----------



## groovetube

The guiding hand behind the revival of RIM’s PlayBook - The Globe and Mail

This will be interesting to watch. I do think though, their not including the messenger app was a mistake.


----------



## Macfury

Hello, iPad 3.0, goodbye Playbook buzz.


----------



## DeMarked

Playbook is still one of the best tablets for value. Paid $200 for my pb, paid $800 for my iPad. Don't count them out just yet. If they can ever get the apps up to par they may have a fighting chance.


----------



## Macfury

DeMarked said:


> Playbook is still one of the best tablets for value. Paid $200 for my pb, paid $800 for my iPad. Don't count them out just yet. If they can ever get the apps up to par they may have a fighting chance.


Perhaps you can argue that at a severely discounted price--I have no idea if RIM could continue to manufacture them with that sticker. But I wouldn't buy a playbook for $100.


----------



## groovetube

It appears the discounted price has put it in the hands of a lot of people, creating a larger number of users. I don't know if RIM can salvage this, but the playbook is, a nice piece of hardware, and the software updates if proven good, will only help.

They likely can't continue the discount for that long, but they wouldn't be the first company to lose money on getting their product into as many hands as possible to create a market. (*cough* microsoft...)


----------



## okcomputer

It was a good move by them dumping stock at silly prices. Now that OS 2.0 has dropped, there are lots of PlayBook users who will sing its praises. Once the next version launches, you will definitely see more people buying them.


----------



## fjnmusic

okcomputer said:


> It was a good move by them dumping stock at silly prices. Now that OS 2.0 has dropped, there are lots of PlayBook users who will sing its praises. Once the next version launches, you will definitely see more people buying them.


Only people who haven't heard of the iPad yet. Or who still think it's 2009.


----------



## Joker Eh

okcomputer said:


> It was a good move by them dumping stock at silly prices. Now that OS 2.0 has dropped, there are lots of PlayBook users who will sing its praises. Once the next version launches, you will definitely see more people buying them.


Did they at least put Email and BBM clients on this update?


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Only people who haven't heard of the iPad yet. Or who still think it's 2009.


I doubt many buying the playbook have not heard, of the ipad. Sort of difficult when the ipads are right beside the playbooks. Online or in store.


----------



## Macfury

okcomputer said:


> It was a good move by them dumping stock at silly prices. Now that OS 2.0 has dropped, there are lots of PlayBook users who will sing its praises. Once the next version launches, *you will definitely see more people buying them*.


At what price?


----------



## okcomputer

Macfury said:


> At what price?


As long as they sell them at a huge loss, they'll sell like hot cakes. Lol. 

I think the PlayBook is a huge failure, don't get me wrong. But OS 2.0 does bring email and calendars and such, so one of the biggest complaints has been addressed. 

BB fans are just as dedicated as we are sometimes, so the PB has a built-in audience and you wouldn't believe how many people are still spouting off the specs and how the hardware blows other tablets out of the water. I honestly think BB fanboism can be even worse than the Apple cult - because at least we are right that Macs and iPhones are the best... Lol.


----------



## dstanic

RIM must be selling the PB basically at cost, they can't do it with the PB 2.0 (what would be the point?). _Of course_ sales are going to increase! Even I was tempted to take a closer look (but have the realistic fear that it could end up being a paperweight in a year or 2.) If I was looking at buying a new Honda Civic for $20,000 and then Ford dropped the price of the Focus all the way down to $8000 guess which one I would buy? (just using those cars as quick examples)


----------



## keebler27

I laughed when I saw this and thought, "It's about TIME!"

I still can't believe their own tablet didn't have email functionality when it was 1st released. RIM was known for being the 1st to have a strong portable email accessibility and for them not to have it on the PB and require a connection to a BB was plain dumb imho. It shows to their lack of vision and leadership (at the time - maybe that's changed).

I've used one before and couldn't believe how clunky the interface was for moving around. I remember using the iphone for the 1st time and how it easy it was to access anything.

Hard to say how many people will buy them. This isn't a judgement on anyone, but from what I've seen, people who have the PB either had one given to them or they can't afford or afraid to spend the extra $$$ on the iPad (they might also be apple haters too 

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## CubaMark

*Oh, Research in Motion - this is just sad.*

*PlayBooks outsold iPads last week*



> Research in Motion Ltd. said its PlayBook tablet computer outsold Apple's iPad last week at a number of Canadian retailers.
> 
> The Waterloo, Ont.-based technology company said on its official @BlackBerry Twitter account that the PlayBook was the No. 1 selling tablet computer last week at Canada's two largest electronics sellers — Best Buy and Future Shop.
> 
> When asked for comment by CBC News, BlackBerry declined to offer specific sales statistics, but reiterated the tweets that showed PlayBooks were the most popular tablets at several retailers last week.


(CBC)

Yup. That's a real big accomplishment, RIM. Outselling (if it's true) a device that the entire world knows is being updated this week. 

What a sad, pathetic cry for attention and validation...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Oh, Research in Motion - this is just sad.*


Worse--there is no way they could know how many iPads were sold this week. They based it on Twitter stats. That's really pathetic.


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> Worse--there is no way they could know how many iPads were sold this week. *They based it on Twitter stats.* That's really pathetic.


How would they do that? It didn't say that in the article.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> How would they do that? It didn't say that in the article.


Yet here it is:



> ...but reiterated the tweets that showed PlayBooks were the most popular tablets at several retailers last week.



@machead98: I rilly rilly lv my plybk.


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> How would they do that? It didn't say that in the article.


While I doubt playbooks were really more popular than the ipad, I doubt it's based on twitter tweets.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Yet here it is:


MF - you've misinterpreted the story. RIM tweeted that they sold more Playbooks than iPads. When asked for comment / detail by CBC, they just reiterated _*their own*_ tweets. They're not saying that the #s were calculated via Twitter.

As I read it, the #s come from RIMs own reports from resellers.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> MF - you've misinterpreted the story. RIM tweeted that they sold more Playbooks than iPads. When asked for comment / detail by CBC, they just reiterated _*their own*_ tweets. They're not saying that the #s were calculated via Twitter.
> 
> As I read it, the #s come from RIMs own reports from resellers.


I see. In which case, where did they get the weekly report on iPad sales?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I see. In which case, where did they get the weekly report on iPad sales?


I can't be sure, but I'm thinking...


----------



## groovetube

ha ha. That pic's a keeper


----------



## Macfury

Looks like Dale what's his name--the guy that just got killed on the _Walking Dead_ series.


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> Yet here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @machead98: I rilly rilly lv my plybk.





CubaMark said:


> MF - you've misinterpreted the story. RIM tweeted that they sold more Playbooks than iPads. When asked for comment / detail by CBC, they just reiterated _*their own*_ tweets. They're not saying that the #s were calculated via Twitter.
> 
> As I read it, the #s come from RIMs own reports from resellers.


Same has what CubaMark has said.

it just goes to show that RIM and its mangement have no idea what it is doing. This company smells like Nortel to me. I wonder if same employees.


----------



## dstanic

I am subscribed to F-Shop and BB emails, and I noticed them heavily advertising the Playbook with OS2.0 or whatever, and starting at $200 that is a good price for _any_ tablet. Remember people that they originally were $300 more! Even if they DID outsell the iPad, that is like saying an economy car outsold a luxury car- not a big surprise when people are on budgets and tablets are really taking off in popularity. How much MONEY did RIM make selling their heavily discounted tablets compared to the iPad? I am sure they would say "don't go there!" :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Looks like Dale what's his name--the guy that just got killed on the _Walking Dead_ series.


Glad I happened to watch that episode before reading this thread... *Mr. Spoiler*!


----------



## fjnmusic

Though RIMM has gained over 6% today, which makes it a great short, here is the picture over the past 5 years for our beloved Canadian tech company.


----------



## fjnmusic

And here is AAPL over the same time frame. Truth can be startling sometimes.


----------



## groovetube

weeeeeee are the champions... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee are the champions.......


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> weeeeeee are the champions... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee are the champions.......


Unless weeeeeeeee're holding RIMM shares over the long haul, that is.


----------



## Mckitrick

Macfury said:


> But I wouldn't buy a playbook for $100.


I did. Hate it. I hate surfing on it. Maybe if I hadn't been using an iPad to surf I might not mind it so much. Now I just let my toddler play with it. He watches his five little monkeys videos and such on it.. I figured for $100 I'd give it a chance. 

Fail..

RIM isn't beloved anymore. Ask anyone who works or has worked there and you'll see it's not what it once was. I wish someone would just buy them already and get rid of all the flotsam currenty running it.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Unless weeeeeeeee're holding RIMM shares over the long haul, that is.


well if you didn't see the downward thing coming, then perhaps stock playing isn't for you then.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> (Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


Why are the RIM guys in the comic actually admitting they're in trouble? Lame.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> well if you didn't see the downward thing coming, then perhaps stock playing isn't for you then.


Seriously? After all I've said you think I would have ever purchased RIMM stocks? I only kick myself for not buying up Apple stocks when they were $78 a share. I was going to get some at $130 a share but again hesitated because they seemed relatively expensive at that point. And you're right; playing the stick market is not for me, which is why I never have. But I am fascinated by watching it.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Seriously? After all I've said you think I would have ever purchased RIMM stocks? I only kick myself for not buying up Apple stocks when they were $78 a share. I was going to get some at $130 a share but again hesitated because they seemed relatively expensive at that point. And you're right; playing the stick market is not for me, which is why I never have. But I am fascinated by watching it.


Groove saw them turning around in six months. Don't give him any stock market cred!


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Seriously? After all I've said you think I would have ever purchased RIMM stocks? I only kick myself for not buying up Apple stocks when they were $78 a share. I was going to get some at $130 a share but again hesitated because they seemed relatively expensive at that point. And you're right; playing the stick market is not for me, which is why I never have. But I am fascinated by watching it.


did I say that?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Groove saw them turning around in six months. Don't give him any stock market cred!





groovetube said:


> did I say that?


You must have if Macfury said you did. Luckily, I did not buy RIM stock ........... sadly, I did not buy Apple stock.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> You must have if Macfury said you did. Luckily, I did not buy RIM stock ........... sadly, I did not buy Apple stock.


he's just mad so being the usual court jester is about he's capable of really. 

Actually I merely observed that RIM had the opportunity to turn things around since, they had still, global sales growing, and a very, very large user base. But I wouldn't bet my dollars on them for sure, they haven't shown the smarts to take advantage to this point, which is too bad. It's theirs to lose really.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Actually I merely observed that RIM had the opportunity to turn things around since, they had still, global sales growing, and a very, very large user base. But I wouldn't bet my dollars on them for sure, they haven't shown the smarts to take advantage to this point, which is too bad. It's theirs to lose really.


There's a RIM around your cup...


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Groove saw them turning around in six months. Don't give him any stock market cred!


Yup. He also said, "well if you didn't see the downward thing coming, then perhaps stock playing isn't for you then," just a few posts ago, which is what I was responding to. I'm no stock market oracle, but I told the bank lady at TD to watch Apple stock back in early 2009. She hadn't really thought about it then, but she did realize that they had pretty much cornered the market on digital music players then, so the idea of Apple being possibly a good investment intrigued her a little. That was back at about $140 a share.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> did I say that?


Actually you said, "As far as I heard the other functions will be out very soon (weeks I heard) the playbook has barely hit the streets, chill.

I'd wait for about 6 months before calling this a failure. I seem to recall the jeers and sabre rattling about android. Jus' saying."

April 15, 2011, almost a year ago

So the other basic functions (like e-mail, calendar, and contacts) ended up taking quite a few weeks—like, about forty or more—but at least they did get 'er done. And I imagine they should get the high-def retinal style resolution happening soon-ish as well. Like by the end of the decade anyway.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Actually you said, "As far as I heard the other functions will be out very soon (weeks I heard) the playbook has barely hit the streets, chill.
> 
> I'd wait for about 6 months before calling this a failure. I seem to recall the jeers and sabre rattling about android. Jus' saying."
> 
> April 15, 2011, almost a year ago
> 
> So the other basic functions (like e-mail, calendar, and contacts) ended up taking quite a few weeks—like, about forty or more—but at least they did get 'er done. And I imagine they should get the high-def retinal style resolution happening soon-ish as well. Like by the end of the decade anyway.


yes I -did- say that they had the opportunity to turn things around, and I thought they had about 6 months to do so. It doesn't look like they have done very well.

You pair though, said they'd be dead in six months. Looks like they're still, chugging along, though they haven't seemed to be smart enough to turn things around.

As for android, it appears I was right there too. You and others were jeering about the failure of android way back when their numbers were pretty low.

Looks like that's changed too eh?

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Nope, you own "six-months." 

Even if RIM stopped producing anything, it would have been alive for another six months just on existing service contracts. Those of us who called the Playbook a failure before we "chilled" were right!


----------



## groovetube

Well, they're still producing and developing updates for it last I checked, so it hasn't gone down yet. A year later even.

Then again an awful lot of people called apple a failure in the 90s before jobs came back. They were waaaay worse off.

And rim is far away from being "dead" at this time as you geniuses predicted. 70million users? Sure.

As far as 6 months goes. Yeah, I stand by it. I said they had 6 months to turn things around, and they could have.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> As far as 6 months goes. Yeah, I stand by it. I said they had 6 months to turn things around, and they could have.


Hitler had six months to turn things around. That means those predicting his victory were right! Cause he could have!


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Hitler had six months to turn things around. That means those predicting his victory were right! Cause he could have!


Careful MF -- old debate rule: the first person to invoke Hitler automatically loses the argument.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Careful MF -- old debate rule: the first person to invoke Hitler automatically loses the argument.


Only if you compare someone negatively to Hitler. It's perfectly OK to talk about Hitler himself!

However, please substitute at will: "Given six months, Xerxes might also have triumphed at Salamis."


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Hitler had six months to turn things around. That means those predicting his victory were right! Cause he could have!


did anyone say anything about victory?

It seems you have a reading comprehension problem. Not to mention the hitler reference.

Meltdown in just few posts!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> did anyone say anything about victory?
> 
> It seems you have a reading comprehension problem. Not to mention the hitler reference.
> 
> Meltdown in just few posts!


Give that post six months.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Hitler had six months to turn things around. That means those predicting his victory were right! Cause he could have!


Macfury, we disagree on many things political, but I find this comment very offensive. Once Hitler took power in March, 1933, during those "six months" he and his party set out to turn their attention to the driving force which had propelled him into politics in the first place, his hatred of the Jews. It began with a simple boycott on April 1st, 1933, which morphed into "The Final Solution" and would end years later in the greatest tragedy in all of human history. In those "six months" that you jest about, there were boycots of Jewish businesses, passage of the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service which restricted employment in the civil service to "Aryans." Thus, Jews could not serve as teachers, professors, judges, or other government positions. A Jewish quota of 1% was introduced for the number of Jews allowed to attend a German universities. "Jewish" books were burnt in elaborate ceremonies and laws, clearly defining who was or was not, Jewish were passed.

Thus, I do NOT find your comment appropriate. You have the freedom of speech in this forum, and I respect your right to say what you want. However, with that right comes a sense of responsibility, and you have crossed the line with an offensive off-the-cuff comment that makes light of Hitler's first "six months".


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> However, with that right comes a sense of responsibility, and you have crossed the line with an offensive off-the-cuff comment that makes light of Hitler's first "six months".


With all respect, I was referring to his last six months, in which he and a few other still believed they could turn the tide of victory, despite all indications that the army had been routed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> With all respect, I was referring to his last six months, in which he and a few other still believed they could turn the tide of victory, despite all indications that the army had been routed.


That seems even worse. The crimes against humanity during his last six months were worse than in his first six months. Next time, think before you post something so insensitive.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Macfury, we disagree on many things political, but I find this comment very offensive. Once Hitler took power in March, 1933, during those "six months" he and his party set out to turn their attention to the driving force which had propelled him into politics in the first place, his hatred of the Jews. It began with a simple boycott on April 1st, 1933, which morphed into "The Final Solution" and would end years later in the greatest tragedy in all of human history. In those "six months" that you jest about, there were boycots of Jewish businesses, passage of the Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service which restricted employment in the civil service to "Aryans." Thus, Jews could not serve as teachers, professors, judges, or other government positions. A Jewish quota of 1% was introduced for the number of Jews allowed to attend a German universities. "Jewish" books were burnt in elaborate ceremonies and laws, clearly defining who was or was not, Jewish were passed.
> 
> Thus, I do NOT find your comment appropriate. You have the freedom of speech in this forum, and I respect your right to say what you want. However, with that right comes a sense of responsibility, and you have crossed the line with an offensive off-the-cuff comment that makes light of Hitler's first "six months".


Trolls don't really care that much. It goes beyond sarcasm, the odd jab, along with the contributions to a topic. It's all about going after anyone with a stick. At any cost.

Like fjn said, once someone uses the hitler thing, it's done.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> That seems even worse. The crimes against humanity during his last six months were worse than in his first six months. Next time, think before you post something so insensitive.



Dr. G: I am only referring to people's perceptions that he might be victorious and I chose him as someone whose campaign was hopeless—a loser. I certainly didn't intend to offend you, but please use Xerxes at Salamis as an example that you might find more acceptable.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Like fjn said, once someone uses the hitler thing, it's done.


Again, you're sadly underinformed. Godwin's Law applies to people who compare their opponents to Hitler or the Nazis, not those who refer to actual historical events. Even on the most basic level, you're misfiring a cylinder.


----------



## groovetube

Squirm all you like, but you're being a complete jerk here.

Conversation done.


----------



## okcomputer

This thread has always sucked. I think it's time to close it.


----------



## Dr.G.

okcomputer said:


> This thread has always sucked. I think it's time to close it.


No need to close this thread. I will support Macfury's right to free speech, no matter how insensitive it might be.


----------



## fjnmusic

Hi yi yi, as the French would say.


----------



## groovetube

matches the dual CEOs of rim.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> matches the dual CEOs of rim.


Yes!! :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

The CEOs of RIM have done a face _plant_. A face palm would have been appropriate.


----------



## groovetube

yes. RIM bad.

bad.


----------



## fjnmusic

And yet, there could be hope from RIMM still…

Can Research In Motion Turn It Around Overseas? (RIMM)


----------



## Joker Eh

BlackBerry Loses Top Spot to Apple at Home: Corporate Canada - Bloomberg


----------



## keebler27

Joker Eh said:


> BlackBerry Loses Top Spot to Apple at Home: Corporate Canada - Bloomberg


The question with this report is will it make RIM rush their new products or will they take their time to get it done right this time?

Time will tell.


----------



## bryanc

keebler27 said:


> The question with this report is will it make RIM rush their new products or will they take their time to get it done right this time?


They've been bleeding talent, market share, profit share, and mind share for a couple of years now. They're done. All that's left is galvanic twitching.


----------



## Macfury

keebler27 said:


> The question with this report is will it make RIM rush their new products or will they take their time to get it done right this time?
> 
> Time will tell.


With the exception of perhaps one person in this forum, I don't believe anybody is waiting breathlessly for the new line-up of RIM products to hit the shelves.


----------



## SINC

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


RIP to all the Blackberry users in Austraila. :-(


----------



## groovetube

keebler27 said:


> The question with this report is will it make RIM rush their new products or will they take their time to get it done right this time?
> 
> Time will tell.


the problems go a little deeper than just their getting products out I'm afraid. Sad to se such opportunity just wasted.


----------



## CubaMark

*Huh? RIM looking to hire iOS app developer*



> RIM posted a LinkedIn job listing seeking a "Senior iOS Mobile Developer." According to the listing, the person will "create exciting enterprise applications for distribution on the iOS platform," and must know how to build and deploy "complex applications for iPhone and iPad devices." The candidate must also come with a few apps they've developed and brought to the App Store.


(CNet News)


----------



## dstanic

You have the iPad way ahead of everything in the tablet market.

With smartphones it's an ongoing war between Apple and Android... with new phones from HTC and Samsung coming out shortly.
Now is the worst time ever to buy an Android phone
.


----------



## groovetube

Hmmm. The reasons would be the same as arguing its the worst time to buy an iPhone.

Always something stated coming out.

Stupid article.


----------



## bryanc

CubaMark said:


> *Huh? RIM looking to hire iOS app developer*


This is RIM's only chance now; accept defeat in the hardware and OS space, and try to leverage their software chops to become a major provider of Enterprise iOS apps (which use their BBM/BES backends). They could become the Microsoft of the mobile world... well... minus Windows... but the cash made on Exchange alone ain't nothing to sneeze at.

I hope they have the brains and the guts to do this... they may yet avoid bankruptcy.


----------



## WCraig

Interesting article on what RIM needs to do. The author has deep credentials and I find his postings interesting and well-written:

Mobile Opportunity: Rebuilding RIM



> [The] reality is that RIM's future is not yet decided. Definitely the odds are against it. But well-known brands have an amazing ability to come back; people are almost always willing to give them another chance. (Check the history of Packard Bell, a 1920s radio brand that came back as a 1980s computer brand. Heck, you could probably revive Palm if HP took its cold dead hands off the thing.) RIM's fate depends on a huge number of unpredictable details, some of which haven't even happened yet, and others that we don't know because we're not company insiders.
> 
> So we can't predict what will happen to RIM, but we can talk about what the company needs to do to survive. If nothing else it's an interesting case study for anyone who needs to turn around a tech company.


Craig


----------



## groovetube

anonymous forum posters however, know far more and have called it done a while ago.

A degree in goog-ology apparently is tops!


----------



## Macfury

Six months should do 'er.


----------



## groovetube

well since you predicted the demise of RIM in 6 months more than 6 months ago, we can safely assume your post is meaningless.


----------



## Macfury

I never predicted its demise. I said it wouldn't turn itself around. A company like that can run for years on fumes alone.


----------



## groovetube

Since the conversation was about it's demise, and you were simply in to take pot shots at the idea that RIM would hang around for some time (which was MY point...), you're full of it.

Slippery, just as you are with your pseudo libertarianism.


----------



## keebler27

bryanc said:


> This is RIM's only chance now; accept defeat in the hardware and OS space, and try to leverage their software chops to become a major provider of Enterprise iOS apps (which use their BBM/BES backends). They could become the Microsoft of the mobile world... well... minus Windows... but the cash made on Exchange alone ain't nothing to sneeze at.
> 
> I hope they have the brains and the guts to do this... they may yet avoid bankruptcy.


Looks like you might be right Bryan.

Just saw this now:

RIM to open its network for use on other devices | CTV News


----------



## CubaMark

*RIM to support iPhones, Androids*



> Research In Motion said Tuesday that it will offer software to companies and governments that would open up its secure network for use on iPhones and other mobile devices in the workplace.
> 
> The move is intended to encourage enterprise customers to stick with its services, even if they gravitate away from the BlackBerry smartphone itself.
> 
> "Organizations face pressure to allow employees to bring their own devices into the workplace, and they are looking to RIM as the global leader in the enterprise mobility space to solve that problem," Alan Panezic, RIM's vice-president of enterprise product management and marketing said in a news release.


(CBC)


----------



## groovetube

that's been in the works for some time now, but I think it's a very smart move on RIM's part.


----------



## jimbotelecom

*Ticket to Blackberry death party*

RIM's Follies Continue as Man Is Stabbed at BlackBerry Party | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

Poor RIM.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> RIM's Follies Continue as Man Is Stabbed at BlackBerry Party | Gadget Lab | Wired.com
> 
> Poor RIM.


oh man. it just gets worse for them PR wise doesn't it.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> oh man. it just gets worse for them PR wise doesn't it.


They've got like 70 million customers worldwide. Nothing to worry about.  So what if shares are only worth $12.76 (from a 52 week high of $57.32) and there may be nobody interested in buying them. Buttons all the way baby!


----------



## fjnmusic

And the hits just keep on coming--ten more predictions for RIM. 



> 10 horrors yet to come for RIM in 2012
> 
> Declining market share, a cratering stock and an executive shake-up is terrible news for any company, any time. But for Research In Motion Ltd. RIMM +0.16% , it probably means the year is just getting started.
> 
> Now this: At a party hosted in London by RIM to tout BlackBerry Messenger, someone gets stabbed in the neck with a broken bottle.
> 
> At this rate, that won’t be the only calamity to come this year for the snake-bitten RIM. Look for these next:
> 
> 1. At RIM’s next launch party, the caterer runs out of plastic cups.
> 
> 2. Carriers throw in a free BlackBerry with iPhone purchase.
> 
> 3. Leo Apotheker leaves daily voice mails seeking a meeting with the board.
> 
> 4. Angry Birds drops the BBX platform.
> 
> 5. Celine Dion declines offer of tour sponsorship via FaceTime.
> 
> 6. Canadian tabloids refuse to hack executives’ phones.
> 
> 7. CEO Thorsten Heins has CrackBerry relapse.
> 
> 8. Apple releases new ad: “BlackBerry, there’s an app for that.”
> 
> 9. Foxconn admits making the PlayBook, but argues it’s really trying to clean up its act.
> 
> 10. Facebook pares down status options: “Single, In a Relationship, Still Own a BlackBerry.”
> 
> — Anthony Lazarus


----------



## Joker Eh

Former RIM boss Balsillie sought radical strategy shift before he quit - thestar.com




> Former Research In Motion co-chief executive Jim Balsillie sought to reinvent the BlackBerry smartphone maker with a radical shift in strategy before he stepped down, two sources with knowledge of his plans said.
> 
> Balsillie hoped to allow major wireless companies in North America and Europe to provide service for non-BlackBerry devices routed through RIM’s proprietary network, a major break with the BlackBerry-only strategy pursued by RIM since its inception.
> 
> The plan would have let the carriers use the RIM network to offer inexpensive data plans, limited to social media and instant messaging, to entice low-tier customers to upgrade from no-frills phones to smartphones.
> 
> But the talks with carriers led to discord at the highest levels of the troubled Canadian company, and Balsillie resigned as a director soon after he stepped down as co-CEO. His former partner at the helm, Mike Lazaridis, still has an active role.


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> Former RIM boss Balsillie sought radical strategy shift before he quit - thestar.com


Interesting. It seems to me his strategy was a smart one.


----------



## jimbotelecom

We've all heard of Apple stores, how about this:

RIM's Sole Stand-Alone BlackBerry Store Serves as Reminder of Failed Corporate Strategy - WSJ.com


----------



## bryanc

*Last spasms?*

Exclusive: BlackBerry maker hires law firm for restructuring - Yahoo! News


----------



## keebler27

yikes!

Was talking with a firm BB user who said he was hoping for a new BB with a keyboard in the fall.

I told him I didn't think that was happening.

I think I was right:


RIM Will Announce BB10 Device in August, Launch in October, Rumour Suggests - Techvibes.com

he told me one of the biggest draws to staying with BB was that physical tactile keyboard...


----------



## Bjornbro

keebler27 said:


> he told me one of the biggest draws to staying with BB was that physical tactile keyboard...


I'm betting he is over 40 years old, eh? :heybaby:


----------



## dstanic

The only reason _I_ was even considering a BB was because of the solid build and keyboard. I got a Samsung Galaxy and love it but do miss the keyboard of my previous slider phone. BB should have at least made it a slider like the LG Eclipse.


----------



## keebler27

guess RIM's launched a preview of their BB 10 OS today:

BlackBerry 10 Sneak Peek from the BlackBerry World 2012 Keynote - YouTube!


RIM BlackBerry 10 testing devices handed out to developers | FP Tech Desk | Financial Post


----------



## Joker Eh

So what about their commercials that said you can't type on a touch screen? And now their first video commercial about new OS is with a touch screen.


----------



## Elric

This was painful to watch, I see they've caught up to what the iPhone and iPad can do now though, just in time for iOS 6


----------



## Macfury

That would have blown me away in 1996!


----------



## imaconapplepie

Apple iOs =10 points Blackberry =0.1 points

I signed up for a blackberry Perl back in 2007, barely even loaded its own os without crashing at times. Camera took forever to load, music files stuck a lot... May I say more?

I have used Andriod, BB, and Iphones and therefore Will always stick to iPhone.

Thanks Apple for something that actually turns on, quick responsiveness, and loads a camera when you need too!
PS: 3d games too kick butt on iPhones!


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## dona83

keebler27 said:


> guess RIM's launched a preview of their BB 10 OS today:
> 
> BlackBerry 10 Sneak Peek from the BlackBerry World 2012 Keynote - YouTube!


That was some painfully slow typing. I can do 40+ WPM on my iPhone with AutoCorrect on.


----------



## Joker Eh

Oh things don't look good now. With news of RIM bringing in JP. Morgan and the layoffs and shares down right now another 8%, yikes.


----------



## fjnmusic

Joker Eh said:


> Oh things don't look good now. With news of RIM bringing in JP. Morgan and the layoffs and shares down right now another 8%, yikes.


They've been rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic for some time now. Doesn't really matter how good or bad the next operating system is—this ship has sailed.


----------



## fjnmusic

Oh my, as George Takei would say.


----------



## Rob

I've had a couple of Blackberry smartphones before, and found them fine as a phone, but very poor for web browsing compared to my iPod touch. I switched over to an iPhone since it was better suited for browsing on the run.

That being said, although the iPhone/Touch are well designed for browsing on a small screen, I wouldn't want to be using a screen that small for long stretches. They're great for occasional use because a phone is small enough to carry around, but about 15 or 20 minutes is all I can take.

My thoughts about Blackberry did a 180 degree turn when I got a new Playbook. For $200 it was just too tempting to resist. I would say it works every bit as well as my iPhone or Touch, and the screen is just the right size that it's not too frustrating to work with for longer stretches. 

I think this bodes well for their new phone OS. Combine Blackberry's powerful messaging system with other features that are at least on par with Apple, at a lower price point, and I think you'll have a winner.

I think people are losing sight of the security advantages of the Blackberry backbone. That's going to remain a solid selling feature. The Playbook proves that they can at least remain capable and competitive in the other aspects.


----------



## tdu

Rob said:


> I've had a couple of Blackberry smartphones before, and found them fine as a phone, but very poor for web browsing compared to my iPod touch. I switched over to an iPhone since it was better suited for browsing on the run.
> 
> That being said, although the iPhone/Touch are well designed for browsing on a small screen, I wouldn't want to be using a screen that small for long stretches. They're great for occasional use because a phone is small enough to carry around, but about 15 or 20 minutes is all I can take.
> 
> My thoughts about Blackberry did a 180 degree turn when I got a new Playbook. For $200 it was just too tempting to resist. I would say it works every bit as well as my iPhone or Touch, and the screen is just the right size that it's not too frustrating to work with for longer stretches.
> 
> I think this bodes well for their new phone OS. Combine Blackberry's powerful messaging system with other features that are at least on par with Apple, at a lower price point, and I think you'll have a winner.
> 
> I think people are losing sight of the security advantages of the Blackberry backbone. That's going to remain a solid selling feature. The Playbook proves that they can at least remain capable and competitive in the other aspects.


I got a Playbook as well a couple of months ago, and it's a very under-rated device. Built like a tank, and the OS (as of version 2) is very nice. For the price it's a ridiculous value.


----------



## fjnmusic

Rob said:


> I've had a couple of Blackberry smartphones before, and found them fine as a phone, but very poor for web browsing compared to my iPod touch. I switched over to an iPhone since it was better suited for browsing on the run.
> 
> That being said, although the iPhone/Touch are well designed for browsing on a small screen, I wouldn't want to be using a screen that small for long stretches. They're great for occasional use because a phone is small enough to carry around, but about 15 or 20 minutes is all I can take.
> 
> My thoughts about Blackberry did a 180 degree turn when I got a new Playbook. For $200 it was just too tempting to resist. I would say it works every bit as well as my iPhone or Touch, and the screen is just the right size that it's not too frustrating to work with for longer stretches.
> 
> I think this bodes well for their new phone OS. Combine Blackberry's powerful messaging system with other features that are at least on par with Apple, at a lower price point, and I think you'll have a winner.
> 
> I think people are losing sight of the security advantages of the Blackberry backbone. That's going to remain a solid selling feature. The Playbook proves that they can at least remain capable and competitive in the other aspects.


I think the security of the BBM service is overrated. It's not the safety of the message while in transit that is the key thing, it's what happens when it arrives at its destination and then gets copied or forwarded to unintended parties that is your security weak point, which you will have with ANY system. If you want security, meet in the middle of a park somewhere and speak in whispers.


----------



## okcomputer

tdu said:


> I got a Playbook as well a couple of months ago, and it's a very under-rated device. Built like a tank, and the OS (as of version 2) is very nice. For the price it's a ridiculous value.


Well, it's only a ridiculous value because it was an absolutely fire sale to get rid of inventory of a failed product. 

Not looking good now. RIMM stock just dipped below double digits. It currently sits at $9.66: Research In Motion Limited (USA): NASDAQ:RIMM quotes & news - Google Finance

From $144 to less than $10 in just under four years. In comparison, AAPL was $175 on that same date in 2008 and is now at $564...


----------



## fjnmusic

Mesa sayin ouch time.


----------



## fjnmusic

And this:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/touc...ity+crisis+peak/6722555/story.html?rel=797532


----------



## keebler27

*wow...they continue to screw things up!*

bad enough their sales were deplorable, but now they are delaying the BB10 until 2013.

yikes

Trading Halted as RIM Posts Extreme Loss Far Worse Than Expected by Wall Street - Techvibes.com


----------



## Joker Eh

keebler27 said:


> bad enough their sales were deplorable, but now they are delaying the BB10 until 2013.
> 
> yikes
> 
> Trading Halted as RIM Posts Extreme Loss Far Worse Than Expected by Wall Street - Techvibes.com


Then the title of the thread still stands.


----------



## Puccasaurus

It would take Zombie Steve Jobs to save RIM now. Talk about circling the drain...


----------



## tdu

keebler27 said:


> *bad enough their sales were deplorable, but now they are delaying the BB10 until 2013.*
> 
> yikes
> 
> Trading Halted as RIM Posts Extreme Loss Far Worse Than Expected by Wall Street - Techvibes.com


I am a member of a Blackberry forum because I got a used Playbook (which I love) and occasionally go there to ask questions about it. They are about as die hard RIM fans as fans of Apple are on Apple forums. They are seriously p.o.'d about the BB10 news. Pretty much every thread on that forum had some sort of optimistic outlook until the ones posted today after the BB10 news. Even the die hards are pretty let down by that news. BB10 seemed to be the thing they were all counting on a saving grace (though I personally don't think even it would have been enough at this point anyway).


----------



## keebler27

Yep-I know some diehards as well and they were looking forward to upgrading later in the fall. Now they are not sure what they're going to do. I can't see this as anything else but that RIM is going to split up it's hardware and software divisions or kill the former / sell off the latter.


----------



## fjnmusic

tdu said:


> I am a member of a Blackberry forum because I got a used Playbook (which I love) and occasionally go there to ask questions about it. They are about as die hard RIM fans as fans of Apple are on Apple forums. They are seriously p.o.'d about the BB10 news. Pretty much every thread on that forum had some sort of optimistic outlook until the ones posted today after the BB10 news. Even the die hards are pretty let down by that news. BB10 seemed to be the thing they were all counting on a saving grace (though I personally don't think even it would have been enough at this point anyway).


They have just enough of BB10 figured out to make a slick video and that's it. If it were really close to read, as ready as the video suggests, they would release it sooner rather than later. Obviously there's nothing forthcoming, not even vapor ware. RIM is over.


----------



## fjnmusic

'Nuff said.


----------



## Kosh

Yeah RIM's in terrible trouble. Hopefully they can turn it around before they run out of money. I think I heard they have a year worth of cash left. I hate to see any Canadian business die, as it means a loss of jobs and likely losing the technology. But you just can't rest on your laurels like that. They should have had their OS 10 this fall.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Meanwhile in Ottawa, work continues on RIM's new consolidated home for RIM and QNX employees. There was only interior work being done today. The RIM parking lot in what was a Cisco campus building had a full parking lot today. That will not be the case much longer.

To almost quote a friend returning to the office on a Monday morning - dealing with Project Managers who drool and need to wear helmets, managers who wear flannel, and colleagues who are in Canada long enough so they can move to the US.

And she needs to duck the giant axe.


Photos from my iPhone!


----------



## keebler27

jimbotelecom said:


> Meanwhile in Ottawa, work continues on RIM's new consolidated home for RIM and QNX employees. There was only interior work being done today. The RIM parking lot in what was a Cisco campus building had a full parking lot today. That will not be the case much longer.
> 
> To almost quote a friend returning to the office on a Monday morning - dealing with Project Managers who drool and need to wear helmets, managers who wear flannel, and colleagues who are in Canada long enough so they can move to the US.
> 
> And she needs to duck the giant axe.
> 
> 
> Photos from my iPhone!



Related to the story about Ottawa

RIM to Ottawa staff: Go all out


----------



## fjnmusic

You aren't being disloyal to Canada by purchasing Apple stuff, friends.

RIM is not Canada


----------



## DR Hannon

fjnmusic said:


> You aren't being disloyal to Canada by purchasing Apple stuff, friends.
> 
> RIM is not Canada


Good article worth the read.


----------



## MacDoc

From a former staff and friend.....seems right on



> I saw that coming. They bought a friend of mine's dinky company for $2M last year. All he did was make an emulator in javascript for a few different mobile devices. My emulator I mean screen size and a few date environment variables. 6 months of part time work. They realized NO ONE WAS DEVELOPING APPS and they really needed apps. Then my friend got hired as part of the deal and described the old school, Matrix I style development. Highly corporate, monolithic code base. They were a late 90s company in 2010. And due to some arrogance that comes from not realizing how quickly the valley can eat your lunch: NAY how quickly 20 focussed people in the valley can eat your lunch, maybe because they had that 'we're a big company' arrogance, it was inevitable.
> 
> In the 90s, corporate IT dictated all purchases and policies. RIM thrived in uniformity and sold to the IT departments. But something happened, sparked by apple. People started demanding to get their Mac, phone whatever to work. They were buying their own devices. RIM's only response was to lower prices but they were, in the end, really just a corporate pager company that grew.


----------



## fjnmusic

MacDoc said:


> From a former staff and friend.....seems right on


Ouch. But true.


----------



## MacDoc

I should make this clear that it's former staff of MacDoc - not RIM but he is in the coding business at a high level and understands the issues plus has the insight of his friend who sold out to RIM.

My view from far on the outside was one of anyone with the gall to take on Apple and Google in their wheelhouse should be run out of town on a pole by shareholders.



> but they were, in the end, really just a corporate pager company that grew.


propped up on many shareholders and employees broken dreams. Irresponsible comes to mind. 
Nortel was a another living high off shareholders money and failing to deliver.


----------



## keebler27

I can't believe the latest news of their CEO saying he didn't understand what all the fuss was about and that they'll be fine with their new roadmap.

That's either completely blind stupidity or blind bravado from a leader trying to rally the troops (which I don't blame him for trying).

I keep hearing some RIM fans point out that Apple was once down and out which is all fine and dandy, but I think the circumstances are completely different these days - plenty of players out there now in the communications device business. They all have to keep innovating and RIM stopped that.

I'm intrigued by the situation - will they make it or not. I know a fellow who works for a company they bought last year and the last time I spoke to him, he seemed to think they'd be ok, but that was before the delay of BB10.

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## fjnmusic

There's a big difference: RIM has no visionary like Steve Jobs waiting in the wings with enough charisma and marketing savvy to pull off a turnaround. These things don't happen on their own. Glorified pager—that pretty much sums it up.


----------



## keebler27

fjnmusic said:


> There's a big difference: RIM has no visionary like Steve Jobs waiting in the wings with enough charisma and marketing savvy to pull off a turnaround. These things don't happen on their own. Glorified pager—that pretty much sums it up.


very true. Balsillie had a vision - an NHL team and not products


----------



## CubaMark

*Whoa - that's gotta hurt...*

*RIM Hit With $147.2 Million Verdict In Wireless Patent Suit
*


> A northern California jury directed Research in Motion Ltd to pay $147.2 million in patent litigation over a remote management system for wireless devices, according to an attorney for the plaintiff, Mformation Technologies Inc.
> 
> The verdict on Friday in a San Francisco federal court comes at a bad time for RIM, whose stock has fallen more than 70 percent in the past year as customers abandon the BlackBerry in favor of Apple's iPhone and a slew of devices using Google Inc's Android software.


(HuffingtonPost)


----------



## SINC

^

One more turn in the death spiral.


----------



## keebler27

CubaMark said:


> *Whoa - that's gotta hurt...*
> 
> *RIM Hit With $147.2 Million Verdict In Wireless Patent Suit
> *
> 
> 
> (HuffingtonPost)


well that knocks down the $2 billion in cash reserves = wow! That does hurt them.

Can you imagine the turmoil at the shareholders meeting if that had broken news the day before?

I find this fascinating from the point of view that Nortel's woes were driven mainly by illegal accounting which turned out to be a major bubble burst yet RIM's is just poor management (to say the least) which is akin to falling down a large staircase, step by painful step.

It's unreal that they've tumbled so far.

And from that patent point of view, I haven't reviewed all the details, but I wonder if it's a one time payment? Can they keep using the technology? Do they still have to pay? All of those possibilities can do real damage down the line too.

wow.

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## smashedbanana

If you read the details its more an issue of a patent trolling company that was allowed a patent on technology that was in use throughout the industry already.

RIM has said they will appeal. Hopefully they will win too. It's the useless U.S. patent and litigation system at work as usual...


----------



## fjnmusic

smashedbanana said:


> If you read the details its more an issue of a patent trolling company that was allowed a patent on technology that was in use throughout the industry already.
> 
> RIM has said they will appeal. Hopefully they will win too. It's the useless U.S. patent and litigation system at work as usual...


They may appeal and win, but it won't pull RIM out of its death spiral. With BB10 not due until next YEAR (a stall tactic) and nothing new or cost-effective to challenge iOS in the mean time, the BB platform is a dead man walking.


----------



## Dr_AL

I don't understand why RIM just kept BB10 silent till it was closer and then develop smaller upgrades and brand them BB8 & BB9. Along with minor hardware upgrades it could have kept people content until BB10 was ready for a prime time reveal for developers with a 3-6 month later public release. 


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## smashedbanana

Balsillie was the one who announces BB10 and he's gone now. No doubt that was part of it.

FJN you are being a little over dramatic. They have $1.5 Billion in cash, $1 Billion in inventory, assets, patents (Totaling $13+ billion) and 78 million subscribers.

They are hurting for sure, but the WORST thing they could do it release BB10 early and have it fail.


----------



## fjnmusic

I don't think I'm being overly dramatic at all. The share price is a little more than $7 now compared to over $140 a couple years ago. They have lost most of the money that they were worth and it doesn't matter how many loyal BB devotees there are if the company goes bankrupt. At this rate, they may gone by Christmas.


----------



## groovetube

smashedbanana said:


> Balsillie was the one who announces BB10 and he's gone now. No doubt that was part of it.
> 
> FJN you are being a little over dramatic. They have $1.5 Billion in cash, $1 Billion in inventory, assets, patents (Totaling $13+ billion) and 78 million subscribers.
> 
> They are hurting for sure, but the WORST thing they could do it release BB10 early and have it fail.


agreed. People have been saying their demise is just around the corner now for about a year and a half. They really cannot afford one more botched release, it'd be far worse than the delay on BB10. Far, far worse.

Ultimately I think they're run out of goodwill and have damaged their brand far too much now to put the brakes on diving down further. But surprisingly they still have a really large number of users, and cash.

Crazier things have happened, but this is like watching an incredibly slow motion car crash. I wish them well.


----------



## Dr_AL

I'm no programmer but RIM should have known what was needed to make QNX BB OS after they made the OS for the playbook. What's with the gigantic delay. They need to come out with something so that they can just build from it. At this point by the time they come out with BB10 it will be outdated and behind the times. Either that or it will be delayed so they can make it stand up against iOS 6 or 7 and Android 'whatever'. 

Sure the OS for the playbook has its issues but it's not like iPhone OS 1 had a ton of features. It was a stable starting point and they built up from that. Heck it took them till iOS 3 to get copy & paste in there.

For RIM I would have started with a QNX base of something slightly better than BB7 and hardware to match it. Keeping the physical keyboard for the first model. I am that far off here?


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## bryanc

smashedbanana said:


> FJN you are being a little over dramatic. They have $1.5 Billion in cash, $1 Billion in inventory, assets, patents (Totaling $13+ billion) and 78 million subscribers.
> 
> They are hurting for sure, but the WORST thing they could do it release BB10 early and have it fail.


I don't think he's being over-dramatic at all. Releasing BB10 early or late won't make any difference; they're toast. RIM has zero chance of survival at this point. I doubt they will keep the lights on long enough to release BB10; it'll be kept as part of the IP that is sold off at fire-sale prices after the company declares bankruptcy, or (more likely) is purchased. They're already a pretty easy target for a hostile take over, and there are lots of potential buyers that could snap up a majority share of their stock at it's current prices. I'm betting it'll be some Chinese firm that wants to expand in the asian and developing market where BBM is still a feature.


----------



## groovetube

That's what I think will occur. They're success in emerging markets spells out that you might be right in your prediction.


----------



## CoderMummy

As a resident of the KW region, I hate to see them faltering as they are. I had a conversation about this with a colleague last night. There's a pattern with major technology companies over the past 30 years... whenever they get arrogant, they get sloppy with innovation.

I worked for Corel in the mid 90's just after they bought WordPerfect. A couple years prior to my joining their stock shot up and a number of people made a lot of money. They too got arrogant and today they hang on tightly to a very small niche market with a small fraction of the employees they had back then. I can see RIM doing something similar. 

I don't see them dying out completely, but I hope they learn from their arrogance and find something they can hold on to that keeps them going. I do, however, think they've permanently lost their position as a top performer in the global smartphone market. What every major North American tech company has historically failed to recognize is that there is always an underdog out there inventing something better.


----------



## bryanc

CoderMummy said:


> As a resident of the KW region, I hate to see them faltering as they are.


As a Canadian, a technology enthusiast, and someone who believes we desperately need to develop aspects of our economy that aren't primary resource based, I *really* hate to see RIM sinking beneath the waves, but I think it's inevitable at this point.

I agree with your analysis; it boils down to arrogance. But not just arrogance... after Corel, Nortel, etc. it's not like they had any reason to believe that they were secure in their position. And, while they weren't only people who were surprised at the success of the iPhone, not only did they take a haymaker to the jaw, they leaned into it.

I realize that hindsight is 20-20, but I really can't think of anything RIM could have done to make things worse over the past 5 years. I'm sure this will be a case study in business schools for decades on how not to run a company.


----------



## CoderMummy

Agree totally bryanc.


----------



## CubaMark

(for those who don't get the reference: Monty Python: The Black Knight)


----------



## Rps

fjnmusic said:


> I don't think I'm being overly dramatic at all. The share price is a little more than $7 now compared to over $140 a couple years ago. They have lost most of the money that they were worth and it doesn't matter how many loyal BB devotees there are if the company goes bankrupt. At this rate, they may gone by Christmas.


I think, although it might be a bit harsh, your assessment is right on. With their financial reporting the cash is only a snap shot .... what you need to look at is the cash burn, or how much cash is being spent vs cash coming in .... my thoughts are that the 1.5B is not much of a stock pile for a capital intensive company ..... I'm also thinking Xmas may be very interesting.

Additionally, the market cap is almost in the junk class, and recent court cases have coloured the value for patents.... if I were a shareholder I would be reading between the lines of the reports to see if the auditors were questioning the going concern prinicple. Soon there must be a writedown of Goodwill coming, surely.

What is interesting is the BoD comments that everything is fine, troubled, but fine ..... a sure sign they either are a disassociated board or they don't know what to do........


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> I think, although it might be a bit harsh, your assessment is right on. With their financial reporting the cash is only a snap shot .... what you need to look at is the cash burn, or how much cash is being spent vs cash coming in .... my thoughts are that the 1.5B is not much of a stock pile for a capital intensive company ..... I'm also thinking Xmas may be very interesting.
> 
> Additionally, the market cap is almost in the junk class, and recent court cases have coloured the value for patents.... if I were a shareholder I would be reading between the lines of the reports to see if the auditors were questioning the going concern prinicple. Soon there must be a writedown of Goodwill coming, surely.
> 
> What is interesting is the BoD comments that everything is fine, troubled, but fine ..... a sure sign *they either are a disassociated board or they don't know what to do*........


it seems, both.


----------



## smashedbanana

I am surprised to read everyone has written them off completely. 

In my opinion the iphone wrecked and/or shook up the whole market. Apple spent a $1 Billion dollars on R&D and over a year in development. We can see everyone got decimated. Symbian O/S, Microsoft 5/6, Palm (gone), Motorola (bought), Nokia (look at what Nokia trades at now!). The Android O/S is lets be fair a copy of the iphone interface with a licensing model. 

At least RIM is trying something. This last hoorah will be make or brake.

I don't work for RIM, but I disagree with many things said here. I guess my back is up to, as I'm a partner and a long time user.

1. Cash Burn rate - If the numbers are right, with the lay offs they can survive 1 year which gets them into BB10. Not christmas, one year.

2. I don't think the BoD is saying everything is fine. I think they are presenting a united front. Thats what they have to do. Imagine they said the opposite. What would that do to share prices...

3. Who would buy RIM? Google would never get approval to own 2 manufacturers. Nokia can't because of their Microsoft Partnership. Microsoft is fully committed to Windows Phone 8. Motorola is part of google now. No way a chinese company would get approval either (Blackberry is the only Us DoD approved mobile device, they would put a stop to that in a heartbeat). A breakup would be the only probable outcome and that will be after the cash is burned off.

4. Playbook. You'll notice the playbook came without an e-mail or BBM client. That is likely the reason for the BB10 delay. They are obviously having a trouble integrating QNX-Based stuff into the Blackberry BES and BBM infrastructure. Hence the "Blackberry Bridge" software. maybe they will rewrite stuff, maybe there will be a new BES. There is no point releasing any BB with QNX if it can't integrate into the infrastructure. That's really the only thing users want from them (BBM and BES)

Anyways Devil's advocate. I could care less if Nokia packed it in tomorrow, but I hope RIM survives, learns, adapts and prospers.


----------



## keebler27

smashedbanana said:


> I am surprised to read everyone has written them off completely.
> 
> In my opinion the iphone wrecked and/or shook up the whole market. Apple spent a $1 Billion dollars on R&D and over a year in development. We can see everyone got decimated. Symbian O/S, Microsoft 5/6, Palm (gone), Motorola (bought), Nokia (look at what Nokia trades at now!). The Android O/S is lets be fair a copy of the iphone interface with a licensing model.
> 
> At least RIM is trying something. This last hoorah will be make or brake.
> 
> I don't work for RIM, but I disagree with many things said here. I guess my back is up to, as I'm a partner and a long time user.
> 
> 1. Cash Burn rate - If the numbers are right, with the lay offs they can survive 1 year which gets them into BB10. Not christmas, one year.
> 
> 2. I don't think the BoD is saying everything is fine. I think they are presenting a united front. Thats what they have to do. Imagine they said the opposite. What would that do to share prices...
> 
> 3. Who would buy RIM? Google would never get approval to own 2 manufacturers. Nokia can't because of their Microsoft Partnership. Microsoft is fully committed to Windows Phone 8. Motorola is part of google now. No way a chinese company would get approval either (Blackberry is the only Us DoD approved mobile device, they would put a stop to that in a heartbeat). A breakup would be the only probable outcome and that will be after the cash is burned off.
> 
> 4. Playbook. You'll notice the playbook came without an e-mail or BBM client. That is likely the reason for the BB10 delay. They are obviously having a trouble integrating QNX-Based stuff into the Blackberry BES and BBM infrastructure. Hence the "Blackberry Bridge" software. maybe they will rewrite stuff, maybe there will be a new BES. There is no point releasing any BB with QNX if it can't integrate into the infrastructure. That's really the only thing users want from them (BBM and BES)
> 
> Anyways Devil's advocate. I could care less if Nokia packed it in tomorrow, but I hope RIM survives, learns, adapts and prospers.


Apple didn't wreck the market, but they definitely shook it up. No doubt about that. If anything, I think they improved it b/c there have been a slew of competitors jump up and provide alternative smartphones for consumers. They pushed the envelope - much like RIM did bringing instant communication to light.

I'm another one who doesn't want them to fail. I've said it before - it's fascinating and stunning to watch.

to your points.

1. you're right - they do have enough money to last for a year or so, but missing the Christmas market and releasing in a major non-buying time (Q1 supposedly), is tough. I know some people who were waiting and with other vendors releasing products before RIM, how many people are going to wait? I can't see many.

2. I completely agree with the united front, but to me, the CEO's comments have been a little too 'everything is ok'. That pic CubaMark posted is fantastic and I believe parallels RIM's CEO. They have to acknowledge that it's really not 'fine'. Far from it.

3. I have no idea about the business side of buying another company lol

4. the Playbook being released originally without its own email still blows me away. That was a desperate move which backfired. RIM was (is?) known for it's instant communication and for their 1st tablet to not have email or BBM was just plain silly. A very poor decision imho. In doing that, they completely shut out an entire buying segment of the population b/c who would want one if they didn't have a BB? 

I really think a critical point is when Balsillie was chasing hockey. That took way too much focus away from RIM I believe and started a chain reaction.

I think competition is great and I hope they can succeed, but their history of blunders is long and their competition is charging full ahead, leaving them in the dust. How many people are standing in that dust with their hand up saying, "I'm ready to buy! I can wait!" or how many people are tired of waiting and putting their hands down to buy another product?

To me, that is the largest issue. In this day and age of now now now, how many ppl will wait? 

Oh and if they do wait, will it be a rockin' release or will it be another blunder?

I know my wife prefers her BB and wants to upgrade (although she's had more issues with it than my iPhone). She's been waiting for a new product and as someone who is somewhat oblivious to technology, she was not impressed at all when I told her no new blackberry's this fall. Her first sentence was, "Isn't Apple coming out with another iPhone in the fall like they usually do and didn't you say Windows has a phone coming out too? Maybe it's time I'm done with BB."

Sure, it's just my wife, but I highly doubt she's the only one thinking the exact same thing.

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## groovetube

Honestly, I think people may be making far too much of the xmas market. Sure, it's a big time, but as even apple has shown, people buy a boat load of ipads and cellphones, after xmas.

I'm guessing the brass at RIM likely saw a failed lame launch of a product not really for launch in order to make xmas sales as far more damaging than putting something (hopefully for RIM) ready for the new year.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Honestly, I think people may be making far too much of the xmas market. Sure, it's a big time, but as even apple has shown, people buy a boat load of ipads and cellphones, after xmas.
> 
> I'm guessing the brass at RIM likely saw a failed lame launch of a product not really for launch in order to make xmas sales as far more damaging than putting something (hopefully for RIM) ready for the new year.


Perhaps they can help speed development times if they just pink slip few any remaining members of the development team.


----------



## bryanc

smashedbanana said:


> I am surprised to read everyone has written them off completely.


Two years ago, they were in trouble, but could've conceivably pulled out of their meteoric trajectory, and the discussion of wether RIM was "dead man walking" started at ARS technica. For the last 8 months, it's primarily been speculation about who will get the best bits off the corpse once it stops twitching.


----------



## groovetube

bryanc said:


> Two years ago, they were in trouble, but could've conceivably pulled out of their meteoric trajectory, and the discussion of wether RIM was "dead man walking" started at ARS technica. For the last 8 months, it's primarily been speculation about who will get the best bits off the corpse once it stops twitching.


I thought the same thing then, they had about 6 months to turn things around, but (as often happens on this forum) I was attacked for it.


----------



## fjnmusic

You have to first accept that you have a big bullet hole before you can do much to stop the bleeding.


----------



## Puccasaurus

groovetube said:


> Honestly, I think people may be making far too much of the xmas market. Sure, it's a big time, but as even apple has shown, people buy a boat load of ipads and cellphones, after xmas.


Exactly. They buy Apple tablets and phones, not RIM


----------



## groovetube

Because Apple put out a great product. Hence, my point, xmas isn't be all.

This bemoaning the missing of the xmas season, is silly. What will finally sink RIM, is a lackluster product. (likely at this point). Not missing the xmas season.


----------



## fjnmusic

Or no product at all. I think QNX is just not up the task and they don't want to admit they're floundering. Hence the continued product delays.


----------



## groovetube

from my perspective it isn't qnx, it's RIM and their terrible execution.


----------



## Dr_AL

Imagine if it was the fact that QNX wasn't up to the task... RIM would have gone all in on hand with a high 10...

I would agree with it is RIM's execution but that is in no way based on any data.


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## fjnmusic

This:

http://www.thestreet.mobi/story/116...on-sirius-and-rim.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO


----------



## keebler27

This was exactly what I was referring about - will consumers wait?

Also, I do not know the technical ins and outs, but I know RIM has always touted the security of its communication as a plus over other manufacturers, but it seems the iPhone is reaching the same level (or has always been). 

Qantas drops Blackberrys for iPhones | News | Tech | Ottawa Sun


----------



## groovetube

no consumers won't wait. If you want a new phone, and BB doesn't have a new exiting phone to buy, that's done. APple will have the iphone 5, and samsung (etc.) are constantly putting out very cool phones making BBs look antiquated.

The only thing holding RIM up right now is their large user base. But that can only sustain them for so long.


----------



## SINC

Another nail in the coffin:

New York Times scraps BlackBerry app | CTVNews


----------



## Dr_AL

Looks like they are going to push the marketing on Multi-tasking abilities of BB10. 

http://bit.ly/OPC1KJ

It's not like apps are running full blown in the background, but I've got no issues with iOS multitasking.


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## keebler27

Dr_AL said:


> Looks like they are going to push the marketing on Multi-tasking abilities of BB10.
> 
> RIM?s secret for recovery
> 
> It's not like apps are running full blown in the background, but I've got no issues with iOS multitasking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


I saw this too just now. I find his quote to be a few iOs' behind ? (unless I'm wrong) :
I forgot when the double clicking the home button came into play?

“You click on one application and then when you are finished with it or want to do something else, you press the home button and you are back to select another application. In the last four or five years it has not evolved.”

Well, actually...no...a half second double click puts you right back to where the last apps you were in, are sitting. click again, you're in to the exact same spot those apps were left...

Perhaps they'll invent some new way to have multiple apps running and I'm sure (they better hope) they also find a way to maximize battery power because I can't imagine that would be anything other than a power drain.


----------



## groovetube

that's just sad. It better be really good, or it'll be another one like 'flash!..... ahhhhhhhh..."


----------



## Dr_AL

> In coming weeks, he intends to show just how well RIM’s next-generation BlackBerry 10 phones can run multiple applications simultaneously. He believes the wireless world has been stagnant for a half-decade and that it’s time for RIM to shake things up.
> “Apple introduced a fundamental revolution four or five years ago with the iPhone. That paradigm, in terms of smartphone experience, has been prevailing since,” Boulben said in an interview with The Citizen.
> “You click on one application and then when you are finished with it or want to do something else, you press the home button and you are back to select another application. In the last four or five years it has not evolved.”
> Boulben, a 20-year wireless industry veteran, has the monumentous task of returning RIM to relevance in North America.


the wireless world has been stagnant for a half decade? I think there has been sizeable evolution since iPhone OS 1 & 2 and evolution with Android. 

Maybe he was just talking about RIM's evolution? Is it me or does it seem like any quote from a RIM executive seems to be out of touch these days?


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## Macfury

I think you can simultaneously watch movies on it while watching the value of the stock drop.


----------



## keebler27

Dr_AL said:


> the wireless world has been stagnant for a half decade? I think there has been sizeable evolution since iPhone OS 1 & 2 and evolution with Android.
> 
> Maybe he was just talking about RIM's evolution? Is it me or does it seem like any quote from a RIM executive seems to be out of touch these days?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


lol I thought the same thing - it's like they are back a few years or thinking everything is a-ok.

I dunno...maybe the joke's on us and it's some brilliant marketing plan (somehow, I doubt it).

Macfury, I LOL'd on your comment about watching the video and stock drop...


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)

(Why this is topical in Nova Scotia: Rare sail-back reptile fossil found in N.S. )


----------



## fjnmusic

One bright spot: with Samsung's huge loss in the US courts on Friday, everyone's forgotten all about RIM's problems.


----------



## Kosh

A bit of good news for RIM. Hopefully they will be able to keep the company going and keep the jobs they have.

RIM says subscriber base grows to 80 million - Yahoo! Finance Canada


----------



## keebler27

Kosh said:


> A bit of good news for RIM. Hopefully they will be able to keep the company going and keep the jobs they have.
> 
> RIM says subscriber base grows to 80 million - Yahoo! Finance Canada


I thought this might be good info as well:

BlackBerry 10 review | Operating systems Reviews | TechRadar

but then :

Research In Motion: No BB10 Debut Until March, Analyst Says - Forbes

Of course, this is just an analyst and not a company released statement, but if that's true, yet another hole in their plan.

The keyboard looks slick from the first link as it anticipates words, but other than that, I haven't seen anything ground breaking from what Android, MS or Apple can offer.

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## groovetube

afaik, the new BBs weren't due until after xmas. So a month or so at this point, isn't going to dent whether they die or not.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> afaik, the new BBs weren't due until after xmas. So a month or so at this point, isn't going to dent whether they die or not.


New update: March 2013. That's three months after Christmas. Too bad they can't just admit they're in over their heads, they had a good run, QNX is ****e, and it's better to close shop now than after you really get beat up. Blackberries uses to be pretty cool, and so did Obama.


----------



## groovetube

I don't think it's really new news. Like I said it was announced a long time ago it'd be released after xmas. QNX isn't ****e, it's actually quite good. But a decent OS isn't going t save them, the environment, the apps etc will. I don't know that they can pull that off.

But the big corps are still buying them. My wifes company just upgraded everyone to a new BB last month. And they are probably the biggest financial institution in the world. Either they'll be piece mealed up, or limp along for quite some time to come. This thread was started what a year and a half ago? 6 months have come and gone a long time ago


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I don't think it's really new news. Like I said it was announced a long time ago it'd be released after xmas. QNX isn't ****e, it's actually quite good. But a decent OS isn't going t save them, the environment, the apps etc will. I don't know that they can pull that off.
> 
> But the big corps are still buying them. My wifes company just upgraded everyone to a new BB last month. And they are probably the biggest financial institution in the world. Either they'll be piece mealed up, or limp along for quite some time to come. This thread was started what a year and a half ago? 6 months have come and gone a long time ago


True 'nuff. I'd bet on the limping though. From what I understand, QNX is a Canadian invention from the 90's. You sure it's up to the task? I get the feeling they're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear a little bit, and are having trouble admitting it just isn't working well after all. Why else all the delays?


----------



## groovetube

have you tried it? I like it.

But that isn't really the big problem there though. RIMs bigger problem, could be the re-emergence of the windows platform on mobile. (business)


----------



## Puccasaurus

The BB10 preview videos look slick, but really all they've done is catch up to iOS and Android...and now they such a poor selection of apps that why would anyone buy one? 

I may still pick up a fire sale Playbook though as a movie watcher and general screwing around on the web device.


----------



## groovetube

truthfully, all they have to do is catch up to android or iOS, though the environment/app thing will be a while.

They already have a huge subscriber base, they're main job is to keep it.


----------



## fjnmusic

There are a great many discoveries that never leave the laboratory, and there are many great movie scenes that end up on the cutting room floor. There are a ton of great musicians who you'll never hear of simply because they weren't marketed at the right time. RIM has been asleep at the wheel for far too long. Even if QNX or BB10 are brilliant it won't matter, because they've been out of action for far too long. A month is a crucial in the smartphone market, and a year past the promised date is like a lifetime.


----------



## groovetube

I would agree with you on the year thing. The month, I doubt at this point, it makes any difference whatsoever to whatever their outcome is.


----------



## Kosh

fjnmusic said:


> From what I understand, QNX is a Canadian invention from the 90's. You sure it's up to the task?


So it's from the 90's, what does that matter?!? The Internet is from the 80's. COBOL is from the 60's. Both are still used heavily to this day and working fine.


----------



## rondini

COBOL? Pfft. FORTRAN is where it's at!!!

and punch cards, and a flow chart template.


----------



## rondini

Let's not forget HP calculators running in RPN.


----------



## fjnmusic

I hear slide rules may be making a comeback.


----------



## keebler27

fjnmusic said:


> New update: March 2013. That's three months after Christmas. Too bad they can't just admit they're in over their heads, they had a good run, QNX is ****e, and it's better to close shop now than after you really get beat up. Blackberries uses to be pretty cool, and so did Obama.


I don't think I could twist my own words enough here, but that estimate of March 2013 was by an analyst and not an official company release.

(and here comes the twist) - BUT then again, given their recent huge mistakes, it could well be another misstep and blunder.

I'm not a deep tech code kind of guy so I don't quite understand the intricacies of QNX, but folks seem to like it.

I did see the new videos and my thought was, "Well, Android and iOS already do those things?" For the most part - their one window showcasing weather and other updates on one screen reminds me of the mobile WIndows 8 update I saw.

The smart keyboard looks interesting where it can gueestimate what you're about to type.

But other than that, I wasn't wowed.

I know my wife is still waiting.

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## groovetube

well their trick here, is to catch up with the joneses, and keep what's left of their subscriber base. Which is still quite large.

Seems a bit of a insurmountable one for them so far though.


----------



## keebler27

groovetube said:


> well their trick here, is to catch up with the joneses, and keep what's left of their subscriber base. Which is still quite large.
> 
> Seems a bit of a insurmountable one for them so far though.


yup...they're definitely at the bottom right now.

I'm very interested to see if it can come back.

I worked with a fellow who had some RIM stock - this was years ago. I sure hope he cashed out before the crashing started.


----------



## Puccasaurus

fjnmusic said:


> True 'nuff. I'd bet on the limping though. From what I understand, QNX is a Canadian invention from the 90's. You sure it's up to the task? I get the feeling they're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear a little bit, and are having trouble admitting it just isn't working well after all. Why else all the delays?


BSD UNIX at the heart of OS X was invented in 1977


----------



## SINC

An interesting take by a Blackberry user:

The scarlet shame of having the wrong cell phone - CBS News


----------



## keebler27

well, i may have missed the boat. lol

I was actually going to buy RIM shares in October when they were just under $7.

Of course, that was in the midst of 5 weeks of hunting where I wasn't home much.

Therefore, I didn't want to poke Mama Bear more than she was already irritated to get the paperwork done. She's the breadwinner of the house and works alot. With me being gone, touch she was lol (which I can't blame her 

Soooo....now it's up to $14 something. I know this is based on the hype and it might come down, but I had wanted to buy some to make enough to pay for most of a new Mac Pro. Just play money.

I won't be doing it now b/c i think it's still too risky, but at $7, easier to swallow.

Funny, she was on BB since her first 'smartphone' and she just switched to an iPhone. I even told her new BB's were coming out so maybe she should wait, but she said if the new Qwerty one wasn't coming out right away and just the touch was available, she might as well get iPhone considering most of our close family and friends are on iPhones. The kids are with iPod Touches. We can share apps etc... was her thinking. I was surprised, but she caved. 

I once wanted to buy Apple stock at $40 years ago. DOH! That was simply a matter of no play funds left.

Cheers,
Keebler


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> An interesting take by a Blackberry user:
> 
> The scarlet shame of having the wrong cell phone - CBS News


I guess I'm a dinosaur, I have a BB. I have had one for years without issue. The problem is, I guess, I use mine as a phone. I have had it in: -40c weather to +40; I've dropped it 30ft ( in its case ) to the factory floor, had it run over ( in its case ) by a car on a snowy parking lot..... each time it still worked. I had my first one for 4 years and only upgraded to the newer one because of my shared plan with my family....... Are they iPhones, no, but mine works so that's why I keep buying it. I am sure that many iPhone users have had the same reliability with their iPhones and that is why they keep buying theirs. For the money they cost I always ask myself based on my experience why should I change......


----------



## keebler27

Rps said:


> I guess I'm a dinosaur, I have a BB. I have had one for years without issue. The problem is, I guess, I use mine as a phone. I have had it in: -40c weather to +40; I've dropped it 30ft ( in its case ) to the factory floor, had it run over ( in its case ) by a car on a snowy parking lot..... each time it still worked. I had my first one for 4 years and only upgraded to the newer one because of my shared plan with my family....... Are they iPhones, no, but mine works so that's why I keep buying it. I am sure that many iPhone users have had the same reliability with their iPhones and that is why they keep buying theirs. For the money they cost I always ask myself based on my experience why should I change......


My buddy is the same - no issues with his BB. My wife, however, has had a ton with hers. Both the hardware and outtage issues where texts or emails don't even get out or received. Very weird. She just had enough waiting for a new one. She's had hers for about 4.5 years or so. It just started falling apart and she couldn't wait any longer unfortunately.


----------



## fjnmusic

keebler27 said:


> well, i may have missed the boat. lol
> 
> I was actually going to buy RIM shares in October when they were just under $7.
> 
> Of course, that was in the midst of 5 weeks of hunting where I wasn't home much.
> 
> Therefore, I didn't want to poke Mama Bear more than she was already irritated to get the paperwork done. She's the breadwinner of the house and works alot. With me being gone, touch she was lol (which I can't blame her
> 
> Soooo....now it's up to $14 something. I know this is based on the hype and it might come down, but I had wanted to buy some to make enough to pay for most of a new Mac Pro. Just play money.
> 
> I won't be doing it now b/c i think it's still too risky, but at $7, easier to swallow.
> 
> Funny, she was on BB since her first 'smartphone' and she just switched to an iPhone. I even told her new BB's were coming out so maybe she should wait, but she said if the new Qwerty one wasn't coming out right away and just the touch was available, she might as well get iPhone considering most of our close family and friends are on iPhones. The kids are with iPod Touches. We can share apps etc... was her thinking. I was surprised, but she caved.
> 
> I once wanted to buy Apple stock at $40 years ago. DOH! That was simply a matter of no play funds left.
> 
> Cheers,
> Keebler


Yup. That would have been a quick doubling of your investment. Can't get those kind of interest rates anywhere else. Doing far better than Apple over the last little while on the market, where it seems investors fear that with Steve gone, there's no new tricks left in the bag. At least BB does have a new product coming out, which helps the company regain some former glory—though it's a long way to $140/share again. We shall say, as my friend reb G likes to say.


----------



## keebler27

For those of you interested in the tech world and how RIM might come back:

www1.rim.com/newsroom.html 

for the announcement today.

I'm interested from the underdog point of view, their past blunders and also, what neat features might come to smart devices (after everyone is done suing each other to use  lol


----------



## Joker Eh

A quote from the former Mayor on Twitter to which I agree.



> I think at this point, it's better to look forward for RIM, than reflect on what they have(nt) done.


Learn from your mistakes and move on. Dwelling on the past only slows you down.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> A quote from the former Mayor on Twitter to which I agree.
> 
> Learn from your mistakes and move on. Dwelling on the past only slows you down.


Says the guy who originated this thread!!!


Kodak has been making printers for year. I have often wondered why Kodak, on the brink of bankruptcy, didn't suddenly offer a printer with incredibly cheap cartridges that could easily be refilled. 

RIM, as it has less to lose, may find itself capable of throwing something daring out there.


----------



## Joker Eh

Joker Eh said:


> RIM,
> 
> *How can you create a device called the Playbook and yet it has no email client?*
> 
> What were you thinking? Isn't that what you do? It should have been the first feature built in.
> 
> Another large Canadian company slowly going down the drain.





Macfury said:


> *Says the guy who originated this thread!!!*
> 
> 
> Kodak has been making printers for year. I have often wondered why Kodak, on the brink of bankruptcy, didn't suddenly offer a printer with incredibly cheap cartridges that could easily be refilled.
> 
> RIM, as it has less to lose, may find itself capable of throwing something daring out there.


Well I started the thread because at the time they screwed up. Nothing about history it was in the moment and it was acknowledge by them that they screwed up.

Here is hoping they don't repeat the past. Again looking forward.


----------



## iMouse

Keep good thoughts, for the crowd is full of those who enjoy schadenfreude just a little too much.


----------



## Sonal

Finally went from a dumbphone to a Blackberry last summer. Love the BB. No interest in the iPhone. Not particularly concerned about BB10 except that it may keep the BB alive when I need the next one.


----------



## keebler27

I have to say I was impressed. I'm not going to change devices b/c I'm all Mac based and it just doesn't make sense.

But I saw some of those features and thought, "hmmm....would be nice if Apple were to implement those changes."

- new time shift camera feature is neat

- screen sharing over video chat. handy for corporate users I would imagine

- but the focus is the the hub. Very slick. everything is in real time and in place. you have to watch the video

check out around the 24 min mark of this video 

The BlackBerry Experience

Getting to some of the apps from 1 window is handy and will save some time.

interesting.... I hope the folks at Cupertino were watching. I know they're not worried, but as techie folks, they should be watching to see what else they can do to innovate.


----------



## Joker Eh

keebler27 said:


> I have to say I was impressed. I'm not going to change devices b/c I'm all Mac based and it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> But I saw some of those features and thought, "hmmm....would be nice if Apple were to implement those changes."
> 
> - new time shift camera feature is neat
> 
> - screen sharing over video chat. handy for corporate users I would imagine
> 
> - but the focus is the the hub. Very slick. everything is in real time and in place. you have to watch the video
> 
> check out around the 24 min mark of this video
> 
> The BlackBerry Experience
> 
> Getting to some of the apps from 1 window is handy and will save some time.
> 
> interesting.... I hope the folks at Cupertino were watching. I know they're not worried, but as techie folks, they should be watching to see what else they can do to innovate.


Watching it now...

True real time multi tasking will drain the battery like no tomorrow.
Like the BBM video and picture chat. 

But see Apple no home button and it works. Nice job RIM. get rid of it Apple.

So far I am impressed.


----------



## Joker Eh

But I want to make this point very clear to Apple.

Get rid of the HOME button


----------



## keebler27

Joker Eh said:


> But I want to make this point very clear to Apple.
> 
> Get rid of the HOME button


lol while i don't share the same level of despise or dislike of the home button, i can see how it's not needed


----------



## Joker Eh

And here is a weird one and I question again what they are thinking. They rebranded their company. They are now called Blackberry. Huh? So you change the name of your company to your product name? Oh boy.

Does this make sense to anyone?

And watching the presentation shows that the CEO has about as much stage presence as a cardboard box.


----------



## SINC

I saw nothing in that painful video that would make me even consider a BB10. And how many testimonials from people you have never seen or heard of at the beginning do you need for goodness sake?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I'm stoked!


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> And here is a weird one and I question again what they are thinking. They rebranded their company. They are now called Blackberry. Huh? So you change the name of your company to your product name? Oh boy.
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone?
> 
> And watching the presentation shows that the CEO has about as much stage presence as a cardboard box.


Welcome back to the team.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Joker Eh said:


> And watching the presentation shows that the CEO has about as much stage presence as a cardboard box.


Yeah. I'm stoked!

Yeah he reads the teleprompter really well and he has started to sprout a Stephen Harper gut belly!


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> Welcome back to the team.


:lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I'm stoked!

"Frum now on Ve R blackberry"!

C'mon!


----------



## Macfury

I like the part where he asks the employees to applaud for themselves... the ones that are left anyway. They were stoked.


----------



## kloan

lol

I actually like the look of the Q10. Nice hardware... but BB10 still looks like a convoluted mess.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The keyboard version will take off in niche markets - journalism, finance types. 

No go for consumer. 

The company will be acquired by Lenovo within 5 months.


----------



## macmac

Joker Eh said:


> And here is a weird one and I question again what they are thinking. They rebranded their company. They are now called Blackberry. Huh? So you change the name of your company to your product name? Oh boy.
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone?
> 
> And watching the presentation shows that the CEO has about as much stage presence as a cardboard box.


What was apple thinking.... To rebrand theselves, Apple Inc.....the audacity of Jobs...


The BB Z10 looks to be an incredible phone. They are hungry and desperate. I once remember another company being hungry....but not anymore. 

The iPhone is nice...but from the 4 to 4s, to the 5.... Three variations yet nothing changed....unless you have no life and talking to your phone is the extent of your social life...then I guess the improvements were needed. Oh right, the 4s and the 5 can open up safari a few nanoseconds faster than the 4. And how could I forget the longer screen of the 5 and maps that didn't work. 

Apple fanboys will buy whatever apple produces even if it is the same product with a different name. How long will that loyalty last? People want innovation and BB offers that right now. They are hungry. Apple isn't. We'll see what the 5s will have to offer in the months to come.

For now, THUMBS UP for BB


----------



## groovetube

I haven't had time to look at what's happened yet, but from some of the posts, I'm wondering who's actually had time to check the phone out in person, or is it the usual trolling, or just waste of times.

What's funny though, is one troller was sure BB would be gone in about 6 months and that was probably a couple years ago. It seems BB came out with a nifty OS, and what remains to be seen is, can they get the app thing rolling. As far as the phone is concerned, it's looks like a touchscreen phone like many others, and I'm surprised that apple heads don't get that.

The prediction that BB would be acquired is probably a no brainer, but it doesn't seem as though BB has gone away into obscurity like a few have steadfastly predicted some time ago.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when (or if) they get acquired.

I kinda agree on the iPhone, I'm getting a little tired of them and the old icon thing. Other OSs are becoming more interesting though I stay within the apple eco system, because that's where apple has the advantage, at least for now.


----------



## Joker Eh

macmac said:


> *What was apple thinking.... To rebrand theselves, Apple Inc.....the audacity of Jobs...*




If you want to compare it would be like Apple changing their name to iPhone or Mac or iPad or iPad or iTunes. You see where I am going. RIM changed their name to their product line.

Apple changed their name from Apple Computers. To just Apple. They don't make an Apple. 

RIM makes a Blackberry device.


----------



## groovetube

Well RIM makes the blackberry. They don't make computers afaik, they just make blackberries. 

It's not really a huge surprise to me really. blackberry is likely a more recognizable name than rim. Not sure what it will do for them in the end.


----------



## macintosh doctor

looks like blackberry formerly rim is having a hard time.
I have used the z10 and thought it was nice.. it is an iOS knock off and look and feel..
as I hate android.. i hope blackberry survives


----------



## groovetube

sure. Competition is a good thing. So is choice for consumers.

The only thing left to predict is our friend in for a shot in 3...2...1...


----------



## kloan

Wait, so they're no longer RIM but are now Blackberry?

I dunno about these guys... seriously.


----------



## Joker Eh

Man their stock is falling. I was not expecting this. I thought for sure it would go up. From what I could tell on the video the z10 looked nice. I like that there is no physical button on the front.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> Well RIM makes the blackberry. They don't make computers afaik, they just make blackberries.
> 
> It's not really a huge surprise to me really. blackberry is likely a more recognizable name than rim. Not sure what it will do for them in the end.


Well they make other devices and who wants to relate to devices with z10 Q29, b39. What the hell is a "z" anyways?

To me it would be like Google changing their name to Android. Wait does everyone know that Google makes Android? 

RIM acts like they are new to the game even in their presentations. But they have been in the smartphone biz as longs as anyone.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> Well they make other devices and who wants to relate to devices with z10 Q29, b39. What the hell is a "z" anyways?


It's designed to ensure that some people call it a "zed" and others call it a "zee."


----------



## Joker Eh

Macfury said:


> It's designed to ensure that some people call it a "zed" and others call it a "zee."


I hate that.


----------



## iMouse

kloan said:


> Wait, so they're no longer RIM but are now Blackberry?


Perhaps it's easier to create a Blackberry division of ?????.


----------



## groovetube

Joker Eh said:


> Well they make other devices and who wants to relate to devices with z10 Q29, b39. What the hell is a "z" anyways?
> 
> To me it would be like Google changing their name to Android. Wait does everyone know that Google makes Android?
> 
> RIM acts like they are new to the game even in their presentations. But they have been in the smartphone biz as longs as anyone.


not really, because android is only a small part of what google does really. 

Working with branding companies a lot as I do, I see how it makes sense for them to do this, in a way, however, no branding work will help if they tank of this new offering either.


----------



## macmac

Joker Eh said:


> If you want to compare it would be like Apple changing their name to iPhone or Mac or iPad or iPad or iTunes. You see where I am going. RIM changed their name to their product line.
> 
> Apple changed their name from Apple Computers. To just Apple. They don't make an Apple.
> 
> RIM makes a Blackberry device.


It seems like someone here has a hate on for BB


----------



## Joker Eh

macmac said:


> It seems like someone here has a hate on for BB


Actually the opposite. And it seems investors are agreeing with me.


----------



## Sonal

I've rarely seen a re-brand without a bunch of comments about what a stupid idea it is.

SOP.


----------



## SINC

Joker Eh said:


> Man their stock is falling. I was not expecting this. I thought for sure it would go up. From what I could tell on the video the z10 looked nice. I like that there is no physical button on the front.


Little wonder:

Only 1 in 8 would consider a BlackBerry 10 device, says poll | Mobile - CNET News


----------



## Joker Eh

SINC said:


> Little wonder:
> 
> Only 1 in 8 would consider a BlackBerry 10 device, says poll | Mobile - CNET News


Well that poll was taken between January 23 and the 25th. So how could anyone make a proper choice if it was only unveiled today?


----------



## iMouse

The U.S. government is probably in for 70,000 copies already. 

The key indicator for me will be my nephew with money.

He has the best of whatever is out there, and has bounced between an iPhone and a Blackberry before.


----------



## Joker Eh

iMouse said:


> The U.S. government is probably in for 70,000 copies already.
> 
> The key indicator for me will be my nephew with money.
> 
> He has the best of whatever is out there, and has bounced between an iPhone and a Blackberry before.


How is that an indicator?


----------



## groovetube

I was a little surprised that BB stock went down as well. Kinda early on how this really is.


----------



## iMouse

Sell on good news, buy on bad, Tim. 



Joker Eh said:


> How is that an indicator?


If you mean the U.S. Government, they love encryption.

If you mean my nephew, he's damn smart, and a very astute business-man. His start-up has made millions.


----------



## groovetube

my neices and nephews are all using blackberrys. but iphones tend to win out in kids for apps and games. If BB can jump that hurdle, you give them their beloved bbm, -and- apps.

BB's to lose here.


----------



## keebler27

The one feature they didn't even touch on (unless I missed it), despite them featuring it in previous videos was the voice recognition. There was one video claiming that it was more accurate than Siri (a German video), but nothing today? Weird.


----------



## iMouse

"Siri, where am I."

"You're not in the U.S., so your screwed."

tptptptp


----------



## Joker Eh

iMouse said:


> "Siri, where am I."
> 
> "You're not in the U.S., so your screwed."
> 
> tptptptp


:lmao::lmao:

And it's still in beta. :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

Joker Eh said:


> :lmao::lmao:
> 
> And it's still in beta. :lmao:


A blind girl, that relies on her iPhone a lot, showed me that one.

She said it was promised for January, LAST year.

I'll see her in a couple of weeks, and get an updated report. :lmao:


----------



## Dr_AL

Couldn't the notification center be set up to be a bit like the hub?

Centralized location for all new messages? Well yeah I guess depending on how it is set up. I have no issue with the home button, except when it fails.

I'm hoping for some steady improvements in iOS 7 but that's about it. 

All in all the quick release date for the UK and Canada is decent and a welcome surprise. Not sure of the delay in the US. Also don't see why BlackBerry couldn't get the Q10 out before April. I was hoping for a surprise with both devices being released at the same time.

Pricing is good to, and with the expandable memory I like that they have one capacity. Some good, no horrible things except for the high fives. 


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Pogue gave it a good review. Didn't like their voice recognition though. Lots of errors. 

I too am very surprised they didn't have the keyboard version ready. That's their sole hope.


----------



## groovetube

I doubt it's their 'sole hope' by any means. But they've missed the boat by quite a stretch as it is, waiting until April isn't going to make things much worse really. Most hard core BB keyboard users will wait a month or so.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This morning's wall street journal has 4 articles on the BB launch.

They explain the harsh market reaction to the news of delayed entry into the US. BB has a big ad coming up during the Super Bowel and consumers will not be able to get a hold of the Z10 until its delayed launch. Sprint will not carry the Z10 only the Q10 (keyboard launch). By the time BB is in the US it will conflict with a new Samsung Android phone.

LTE did not work for Mossberg during the week he had his unit on AT&T. Mossberg also commented that the Z10 battery is not as good as the iPhone 5. Mossberg did like the virtual keyboard describing as the best he's used. He also noted the hundreds of thousands of apps that iPhone and Android have.


----------



## groovetube

the delay in the US is bad. But, typical RIM. Oops BB.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I think launching in Canada makes sense because of the nationalistic heart strings. Launching in the UK, particularly in London also makes sense because of the core finance/legal/insurance industry - but they all want the keyboard version.

It looks like they are having trouble scaling the production to go after the US immediately.

They seem to refuse to recognize that the physical keyboard is their lifeline to staying an independent company. And a niche company.

I applaud them for their effort but I really think it's too late.


----------



## groovetube

I have to disagree on the keyboard thing. I think BB is going after the market that iPhone, android etc have been making billions off of, having looked at the new device a little this morning, it's good. As I said, those hard core BB keyboard users, they'll wait a month or so, they've already waited 3 years for something new from BB ha ha. Poor souls.

Agree on the production thing. That's totally why.


----------



## SINC

An Edmonton radio host pegged RIM pretty well this morning when he tweeted, _'Blackberry is the Nickelback of the business world, Some still like them, but they won't admit it.'_


----------



## Joker Eh

SINC said:


> An Edmonton radio host pegged RIM pretty well this morning when he tweeted, _'Blackberry is the Nickelback of the business world, Some still like them, but they won't admit it.'_


:lmao:

I like the design of the new z10. No home button. But I question the battery as with open and running programs running in the background all the time it has to drain the battery quickly. And that virtual keyboard seems from reviews to work really well.


----------



## groovetube

Funny enough, most of the BB users I know are pretty proud of the underdog thing. They see iPhone users as annoying people, and that attitude seems pretty well known. Not sure where that 'journalist' got that idea. Perhaps he hasn't met too many BB users


----------



## Script Kiddie

When the apps are put in the background they consume approximately 0 battery.
That's the beauty of it.

After you get the swing of gestures on the Z10 you will see the 'home button' as a pretty retarded thing.


----------



## Script Kiddie

Agreeing with themment that Thorsten Heins has poor stage presence - a cardboard box.

I read in Job's bio that he rehersed his keynotes mercilessly for 3(?) days solid - over and over. And forced everyone to do the same.

Heinz could, no should, take a page out of that book.
He does actually have an excellent personality, but just didn't prepare for this show nearly enough.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Not sure where that 'journalist' got that idea. Perhaps he hasn't met too many BB users


Not sure where you get the idea that a morning man host on radio is a journalist either.


----------



## Joker Eh

Script Kiddie said:


> *When the apps are put in the background they consume approximately 0 battery.*That's the beauty of it.
> 
> After you get the swing of gestures on the Z10 you will see the 'home button' as a pretty retarded thing.


Sorry not possible. If it is "running" it is consuming more than "approximately 0" battery. Period. You can't retrieve data, update the screen without consuming "approximately 0" battery.


----------



## Joker Eh

SINC said:


> Not sure where you get the idea that a morning man host on radio is a journalist either.


Now that is funny. :lmao:


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> I have to disagree on the keyboard thing. I think BB is going after the market that iPhone, android etc have been making billions off of, having looked at the new device a little this morning, it's good. As I said, those hard core BB keyboard users, they'll wait a month or so, they've already waited 3 years for something new from BB ha ha. Poor souls.
> 
> Agree on the production thing. That's totally why.


I agree with you BB is focused on direct compete against Android and Apple. I think that's an error.


----------



## Joker Eh

Here is a good opinion article.

Thoughts Following the RIM BlackBerry 10 Event [Opinion] | iPhone in Canada Blog - Canada's #1 iPhone Resource


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Joker Eh said:


> Here is a good opinion article.
> 
> Thoughts Following the RIM BlackBerry 10 Event [Opinion] | iPhone in Canada Blog - Canada's #1 iPhone Resource


Thanks for posting. That is a good article.

To me it's all about how good the OS is. If it's fast and easy to develop for it will gain flight.
Time will tell. 

Still think they'll be forced to be the physical keyboard company of smart phones.


----------



## keebler27

Joker Eh said:


> Here is a good opinion article.
> 
> Thoughts Following the RIM BlackBerry 10 Event [Opinion] | iPhone in Canada Blog - Canada's #1 iPhone Resource



Good article. Thanks for posting.

The reason for the stock decrease makes sense if it's based on the US launch delay. When they said it wasn't available until after other markets, it really made me wonder why. If they were working on their partnerships like they said, I don't understand why there's a delay. They should have had that set up....

mini-blunder?

The US is only a massive market...


----------



## Joker Eh

it will be hard for them when many have invested so much money in either ecosystem. It would take a lot for me to change. I mean alot. Meaning I probably won't ever. Apple has my credit card on file. :greedy:


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Not sure where you get the idea that a morning man host on radio is a journalist either.


Sorry I read this on my iPhone and didn't pay close enough attention.

I shall make this mistake again, please let the punishment not be too severe.

My humblest of sincere apologies to anyone offended by such a transgression.

And,I mean that in the nicest way possible.


----------



## Script Kiddie

Joker Eh said:


> Sorry not possible. If it is "running" it is consuming more than "approximately 0" battery. Period. You can't retrieve data, update the screen without consuming "approximately 0" battery.


Ah the nuance of what is meant by "running".
When and app is backgrounded it may or may not update its tiled icon state, and for those that do, the period is very 'slow' compared to other events.

Look, the whole wireless stack has to wake up once or twice a second on ANY PHONE to comply with 2G/3G/4G specs. Piggybacking on that bring-up one can perform a few quick updates with very very little power impact. 

Furthermore if your screen is ON to see those updates, that screen is consuming 100's x more power than all the data shuffling behind the scenes from apps you could tile.

So as far as the device is concerned "running" is largely a quasi-active parking, and "apprimately 0" is justified.

You the user see it as "running" and benefit from it all the same.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> And, I mean that in the nicest way possible.


OK, I agree it's time to ban this phrase from the English language. 

Someone get Lake Superior State University on this one right away!!!

Or, we could all just make it our signature. Something akin to pax, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

iMouse said:


> OK, I agree it's time to ban this phrase from the English language.
> 
> Someone get Lake Superior State University on this one right away!!!
> 
> Or, we could all just make it our signature. Something akin to pax, mon ami.


Hey, that's my line ............... don't go dragging me in to this street fight. Merci, mon ami.


----------



## iMouse

Dr.G. said:


> Hey, that's my line ............... don't go dragging me in to this street fight. Merci, mon ami.


Pax vobiscum, Brother. :lmao:


----------



## SINC

iMouse said:


> OK, I agree it's time to ban this phrase from the English language.
> 
> Someone get Lake Superior State University on this one right away!!!
> 
> Or, we could all just make it our signature. Something akin to pax, mon ami.


Well if people want to publicly demonstrate their . . . oh wait, we knew that the first few times they used it.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> OK, I agree it's time to ban this phrase from the English language.
> 
> Someone get Lake Superior State University on this one right away!!!
> 
> Or, we could all just make it our signature. Something akin to pax, mon ami.


Oh John now you're merely playing to an audience. :lmao:


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> Oh John now you're merely playing to an audience. :lmao:


Give the people what they want, and you'll never go broke.


----------



## Dr.G.

iMouse said:


> Pax vobiscum, Brother. :lmao:


Well said, mon ami. Merci.


----------



## Rps

descendite noli nothi


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Give the people what they want, and you'll never go broke.


Wait there's money in that?


----------



## Kleles

iMouse said:


> Give the people what they want, and you'll never go broke.


Of course it should be "Sell people what they want, and you'll never go broke."


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> Wait there's money in that?


Hell, there is even money in NOT giving people what they want ...... if your name is Apple.


----------



## gmark2000

Well that 15 second Super Bowl commercial was a waste of money. It demonstrated nothing that seemed useful or made any sense.


----------



## SINC

Yep, just like the CEO's lame introduction of the BB10.


----------



## fjnmusic

I do find that Apple's competitors rarely give much useful information about their product on a commercial. They can be snarky or even entertaining, but they don't say much about what a device actually does, probably because it doesn't do anything much differently than the Apple device. Just an observation. BB would be wise to promote this time shift feature in its camera. Now that is cool.


----------



## groovetube

Apple commercials were a little like that some time ago, a few of us always wondered why they didn't highlight more what you can -do- with the mac, beyond how powerful it was, how pretty it was etc. 

It seems apple has gotten better at it now with the iPad commercials (although the insipid music annoys me.)

Haven't seen the BB commercial, but they haven't much of a bar given how bad their last commercials were.


----------



## groovetube

just saw the BB ad. Lame. Holy lame.


----------



## keebler27

Wow. Every disappointing.

They really missed the mark by telling people to visit a website to find out more?

Really? Probably a huge % of people seeing the commercial were hammered so I doubt they remembered to check.

Plus, if BB is so amped about their hub feature (which does look slick), then SHOW how it works! You only need a few seconds to illustrate it is different.

That should have been the focus.

My wife (a very recent BB switcher to iPhone - as in 2 weeks ago), and I were checking our iPhones for an update on a family situation and I caught the end of it. I asked her what it was. She said the new BB commercial (she had missed almost the entire thing).

We both laughed at the irony.


----------



## Macfury

The commercial was amusing--and worthless as a marketing effort. However, the guy carrying the BB was clearly STOKED!!


----------



## Script Kiddie

"Me too" with the general feeling of lame commercial.

--BUT--

Did you see some of the others?
The "Ram Trucks - Farmer" wanted to make me vomit the sachharine smugness right out my nose.
The Samsung was just boaring and LLLOOONNNGGG.

VW Beetle - now that was funny and cute.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Clearly Balsillie is stoked after the RIM board allowed him to sell off all of his holdings. Stoked with cash!


----------



## CubaMark

*And there she goes....*

*BlackBerry Trading Halted As Company Looks For A New Future*

BlackBerry has finally publicly declared that it is looking to find a new backer willing to take the company on or one that is happy to partner with the handset maker under a joint venture or other strategic partnership.

*BlackBerry said:*

_“The Company’s Board of Directors has formed a Special Committee to explore strategic alternatives to enhance value and increase scale in order to accelerate BlackBerry 10 deployment. These alternatives could include, among others, possible joint ventures, strategic partnerships or alliances, a sale of the Company or other possible transactions.”​_​
(TheNextWeb)


----------



## Macfury

What the heck does "deployment" mean in this context? Sales?


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> What the heck does "deployment" mean in this context? Sales?


Or "strategic alternatives." I don't think they're above begging at this point, or even paying people a bonus to buy their products. It's sad and pathetic is what it is. Hope Lazaridis and Balsillie are enjoying their retirement while the company scrambles.


----------



## SINC

Seems 'bout right . . .


----------



## Macfury

Just give those puppies a few more weeks to catch on with the kids--I hear they really love their Blackberries and Playbooks.


----------



## fjnmusic

Macfury said:


> Just give those puppies a few more weeks to catch on with the kids--I hear they really love their Blackberries and Playbooks.


The Playbook…wasn't that the first tablet designed for professional use?


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> The Playbook…wasn't that the first tablet designed for professional use?


I hear you can watch a video while editing a spreadsheet... at the same time! Simultaneously!!


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Or "strategic alternatives." I don't think they're above begging at this point, or even paying people a bonus to buy their products. It's sad and pathetic is what it is. Hope Lazaridis and Balsillie are enjoying their retirement while the company scrambles.


I'm sure they are. (enjoying their retirement that is).

Just noticed that this thread was started almost 2 and a half years ago, where some were mocking that the company would last even 6 months.

With the colossal screwups over the last few years, I'm surprised it took 2 and half years to get to looking for a buyer.

If you bought stock in their real low you made some money though 

RIM, good for something I suppose


----------



## Joker Eh

Joker Eh said:


> RIM,
> 
> How can you create a device called the Playbook and yet it has *no email client*?
> 
> What were you thinking? Isn't that what you do? It should have been the first feature built in.
> 
> Another large Canadian company slowly going down the drain.


I still say this was their downfall.

I think they have past the trap on their way down the drain.


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I'm sure they are. (enjoying their retirement that is).
> 
> Just noticed that this thread was started almost 2 and a half years ago, where some were mocking that the company would last even 6 months.
> 
> With the colossal screwups over the last few years, I'm surprised it took 2 and half years to get to looking for a buyer.
> 
> If you bought stock in their real low you made some money though
> 
> RIM, good for something I suppose


C'mon, GT. RIM peaked at $140/share! A far cry from the current $10-ish levels. They've been dying a slow death since we made those predictions. It's like a lingering cancer, that even when they cut it out, there was no hope. The damage was done. Just like Ballmer they underestimated the appeal of a touch surface phone. Apple faces a similar fate unless they can come up with a new good idea the Steve Jobs didn't come up with already. They have the talent but Jobs was a modern day PT Barnum. He knew how to get people interested.


----------



## Kosh

Interesting. One of the companies RIM bought, QNX, is apparently doing better than RIM:

QNX inks in-car software deal with Panasonic


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> C'mon, GT. RIM peaked at $140/share! A far cry from the current $10-ish levels. They've been dying a slow death since we made those predictions. It's like a lingering cancer, that even when they cut it out, there was no hope. The damage was done. Just like Ballmer they underestimated the appeal of a touch surface phone. Apple faces a similar fate unless they can come up with a new good idea the Steve Jobs didn't come up with already. They have the talent but Jobs was a modern day PT Barnum. He knew how to get people interested.


I'm well aware of the slow death fjn. I'm just referring to the recent 50% jump. I don't think that's in any way a good sign for the health of RIM, just a quick buck for those in and out


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> I'm well aware of the slow death fjn. I'm just referring to the recent 50% jump. I don't think that's in any way a good sign for the health of RIM, just a quick buck for those in and out


Timing is critical for the quick buck makers in these kinds of situations. Any gains could be wiped out tomorrow.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> Timing is critical for the quick buck makers in these kinds of situations. Any gains could be wiped out tomorrow.


if it were easy we'd be sipping drinkie's from an island.


----------



## i<3myiBookg4

I had a Blackberry Curve, it was terrible! I am so glad I switched to an iPhone.


----------



## SINC

BlackBerry share trading halted | canada.com


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDyb_alTkMQ]Sid Vicious - My Way (Original and Complete Version) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

man that's a loooooooong 6 months


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> man that's a loooooooong 6 months


coulda saved a lot of dough.


----------



## SINC

Stick a fork in 'em, they're done as predicted here long ago.


----------



## DR Hannon

It is to bad they finally made a decent phone


----------



## groovetube

Far too late. It is too bad, a Canadian company too.


----------



## SINC

No one to blame but themselves. They had it all and complacency drove them to ruin. To little, too late.


----------



## whatiwant

Agree with the last 3 posts to a T


----------



## Joker Eh

*Bye Bye!!!!*

Fairfax group offers to buy BlackBerry in deal worth $4.7 (U.S.) billion | Toronto Star

Does my statement (thread title) hold true now?



> BlackBerry Ltd. says it has signed a deal to be bought by a consortium led by its largest shareholder in a deal valued at $4.7 billion (U.S.).
> 
> The consortium led by Fairfax Financial Holdings. Ltd. has offered $9 per share in cash for the smartphone maker.
> 
> Under the deal, the consortium would acquire all of the outstanding shares of BlackBerry not held by Fairfax, which owns approximately a 10 per cent in the company.
> 
> The BlackBerry board of directors has approved the terms of the letter of agreement.
> 
> BlackBerry shares were down 60 cents at $8.48 (Canadian) on the Toronto Stock Exchange shortly before a trading halt on North American markets.
> 
> Trading on public markets is set to resume at 2 p.m. ET.
> 
> The Fairfax consortium is expected to complete its due diligence by Nov. 4. Until then, BlackBerry is allowed to actively solicit and evaluate rival offers.
> 
> More to come


----------



## groovetube

wow. Finally. After 2 and a half years, they got bought?

Will be interesting to see what happens after this. Parcelled up and sold?


----------



## Macfury

I hear the teens are really into their Playbooks.


----------



## FeXL

Fairfax hands BlackBerry $4.7-billion lifeline



> Fairfax Financial Holdings Ltd.’s preliminary offer to buy BlackBerry Ltd. for $4.7-billion (U.S.) sets out a potential rescue plan for a company that is losing the fight for smartphone customers.
> 
> The $9-a-share bid, announced Thursday, puts at least a temporary halt to the deluge of bad news surrounding the Waterloo, Ont.-based company. Late Friday, BlackBerry issued a grim set of financial results, saying it lost nearly $1-billion in the second quarter, is writing off a large inventory of unsold phones and will cut 4,500 jobs.


----------



## SINC

Interesting read:

How BlackBerry blew it: The inside story - The Globe and Mail


----------



## eMacMan

Rather long winded Don but one key item was hidden in all of that. The takeover bid depends on finding outside financing.

Even if it does come together, I suspect it is a formula to assure the continued spiral into oblivion.


----------



## groovetube

The interesting thing to note here, is blackberry still has 76 million subscribers.

How many does microsoft mobile have?


----------



## SINC

Even more interesting, how many will they have a year from now? Much fewer seems assured.


----------



## groovetube

Given the last few years, a most likely prediction. But they don't seem much worse off than microsoft presently.


----------



## Dr_AL

I'm confused by today's news... Blackberry not to sell now, and fairfax is investing a billion dollars...

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/business/story/1.2355324

Well you tried Thorsten, I'll give you a B for effort. How long will the new CEO last?


----------



## eMacMan

Given Heinz's incredibly poor performance one has to wonder why Blackberry is paying him severance of over $50 Million$. He should be paying them to disassociate his name from the debacle.


----------



## fjnmusic

Sad but true. The last remaining Blackberry employee. 

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/d58eb17ac5/blackberry-meltdown-with-dave-foley


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CubaMark

*Blackberry going Android?*

*Report: BlackBerry weighs Android for next smartphone*

According to Reuters, BlackBerry is considering whether to launch its next device with Android instead of BlackBerry 10. The report cites "four sources familiar with the matter."

The report says BlackBerry will shift its focus more toward software and device management.​
(USA Today)


----------



## Macfury

Everyone loves them because they're such delightful software providers and device management experts?



CubaMark said:


> *Report: BlackBerry weighs Android for next smartphone*
> 
> According to Reuters, BlackBerry is considering whether to launch its next device with Android instead of BlackBerry 10. The report cites "four sources familiar with the matter."
> 
> The report says BlackBerry will shift its focus more toward software and device management.​
> (USA Today)


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> Everyone loves them because they're such delightful software providers and device management experts?


with less than 1% of the market share - they are not managing too much - except those dinosaur real estate agents that are in the age group of 40-70. LOL


----------



## Rps

macintosh doctor said:


> with less than 1% of the market share - they are not managing too much - except those dinosaur real estate agents that are in the age group of 40-70. LOL


Well, I have had three Blackberrys and very much liked all three. However it is true their lack of foresight, ability to adjust to market shifts quickly, and maybe management arrogance was their downfall. But I still liked the phones. At the risk of starting a shooting was here, and it is not my intent, Apple should be looking over its shoulders as well......... It is just the nature of business, and I think especially the technology business.


----------



## polywog

I think one saving grace for Apple is the App Store. Even if another, more appealing platform emerges, many users would be hard pressed to leave behind a software investment.

On Blackberry, I think their greatest failure was how splintered their platform became. Two, three or four versions of their OS floating around at any given time. Which apps may or may not be compatible with. 



Rps said:


> Well, I have had three Blackberrys and very much liked all three. However it is true their lack of foresight, ability to adjust to market shifts quickly, and maybe management arrogance was their downfall. But I still liked the phones. At the risk of starting a shooting was here, and it is not my intent, Apple should be looking over its shoulders as well......... It is just the nature of business, and I think especially the technology business.


----------



## Macfury

As noted, a segment of people over40 still like Blackberrys.



Rps said:


> Well, I have had three Blackberrys and very much liked all three. However it is true their lack of foresight, ability to adjust to market shifts quickly, and maybe management arrogance was their downfall. But I still liked the phones. At the risk of starting a shooting was here, and it is not my intent, Apple should be looking over its shoulders as well......... It is just the nature of business, and I think especially the technology business.


----------



## Kleles

I might as well throw in my opinion here. Blackberry’s failure (as RIM) was not continuing to nurture and focus on their core business - secure communication for industry and government. Yes, it must have been exciting for them, and their investors, when teenagers wanted nothing but ‘BB’s, and it certainly zoomed sales. But RIM was heading into new territory for them, and they did not manage it well. A popular consumer item is vulnerable to whims, fads and fashions that have little to do with quality — quick rise, quick fall. 

Yes, Apple does have to look over its shoulder. Even though it has been a product innovator and leader, there’s always something new around the corner.


----------



## Macfury

Well said.

This latest potential move to Android would completely gut its original focus of secure communication.



Kleles said:


> I might as well throw in my opinion here. Blackberry’s failure (as RIM) was not continuing to nurture and focus on their core business - secure communication for industry and government. Yes, it must have been exciting for them, and their investors, when teenagers wanted nothing but ‘BB’s, and it certainly zoomed sales. But RIM was heading into new territory for them, and they did not manage it well. A popular consumer item is vulnerable to whims, fads and fashions that have little to do with quality — quick rise, quick fall.
> 
> Yes, Apple does have to look over its shoulder. Even though it has been a product innovator and leader, there’s always something new around the corner.


----------



## fjnmusic

Even RIM's creators were blown away when the iPhone came out, though they did not admit so in public. This is really more of a question of what happens when an irresistible force meets and immoveable object. I'd put my money on the force every time. RIM discovered what people wanted but they no plan to either join up with the other imitators or come up with something better. At least smart investors would have cashed out at the right time...which was about seven or eight years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## macintosh doctor

polywog said:


> I think one saving grace for Apple is the App Store. Even if another, more appealing platform emerges, many users would be hard pressed to leave behind a software investment.
> 
> On Blackberry, I think their greatest failure was how splintered their platform became. Two, three or four versions of their OS floating around at any given time. Which apps may or may not be compatible with.


Not to mention their extreme lack of apps.. 
Plus not until recently they began native support for active sync exchange services and Caldev,Carddev support as well. [ a little late to the game ]

BB OS 10 is a lot easier to use than android OS so that decision might just chase their loyal base of dinosaurs away, BB needs to be careful with that idea.


----------



## heavyall

macintosh doctor said:


> with less than 1% of the market share - they are not managing too much - except those dinosaur real estate agents that are in the age group of 40-70. LOL


They still have a pretty good lock on government contracts. My wife's mandatory work phone is a BB. She hates it so much that even though she gets the BlackBerry for free (including unlimited data for personal use), she still chooses to pay out of pocket for an iPhone.


----------



## smashedbanana

heavyall said:


> They still have a pretty good lock on government contracts. My wife's mandatory work phone is a BB. She hates it so much that even though she gets the BlackBerry for free (including unlimited data for personal use), she still chooses to pay out of pocket for an iPhone.


This is very true and systemic. Every training or trade event I go to the government IT guys always have 2 phones. They only check BBMs and SMS for work stuff on the BBs, everything else is on an Android or iphone.


----------



## smashedbanana

Kleles said:


> I might as well throw in my opinion here. Blackberry’s failure (as RIM) was not continuing to nurture and focus on their core business - secure communication for industry and government. Yes, it must have been exciting for them, and their investors, when teenagers wanted nothing but ‘BB’s, and it certainly zoomed sales. But RIM was heading into new territory for them, and they did not manage it well. A popular consumer item is vulnerable to whims, fads and fashions that have little to do with quality — quick rise, quick fall.
> 
> Yes, Apple does have to look over its shoulder. Even though it has been a product innovator and leader, there’s always something new around the corner.


I agree and disagree. 

I disagree in that I believe they only focused on their core business. So much so they were blindsided but everything else that was outside that focus. Remember when Balsillie announced their phones would never have cameras? They truly believed they had such an understanding of what their clientele needed and wanted they were stagnant and closed. A mindset that was contrary to the industry they were in.

I agree with you 100% about not understanding what the younger generation wanted. But I'd say that didn't just apply to new BB users. Everyone wanted what the iphone and soon after the Android had (save the keyboard of course). How many companies and even government agencies had to adapt their policies to allow in these new devices. Many I can tell you. Even if the rank and file was not allowed anything other than a Blackberry exceptions were made for executives, field personnel, consultants, etc. etc. Even more so soon after for ipads.


----------



## CubaMark

*BlackBerry CEO John Chen fails at delivering a demo of Priv phone*

BlackBerry CEO John Chen gave a hands-on demo of the company's new Android slider smartphone, the Priv, to a news reporter this week just days after confirming the phone's existence. Unfortunately, Chen didn't quite seem to know his way around the device.

Slashgear reports that Chen was demoing the BlackBerry Priv to Business News Network. The full video can be watched online and includes more than a few stumbles by the seemingly inexperienced CEO.

Things don't exactly start off well when Chen apparently forgets that Android has a name and begins by telling the reporter that Priv "runs Google." What follows becomes even more cringe-worthy as he tries to open the Google Chrome web browser and the phone lags out and stops responding.

A few seconds and several taps later, Chrome eventually fires into life and presents Chen with its first-use setup screen. The confused CEO quickly backs out and tries to launch another app but ultimately fails, instead offering himself an escape route by explaining the phone is a demo unit.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.




​
(Digital Journal)


----------



## CubaMark

For a non-befuddled-CEO look at the Priv, here's another video, though the 'reviewer' isn't terribly informed....





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## CubaMark

*This guy really knows how to inspire investor confidence, eh?*

*BlackBerry admits it might give up on smartphones next year*

CANADIAN PHONE MAKER BlackBerry has admitted that it might leave the smartphone business as early as next year, if the Android-powered Priv isn't a success.

Speaking at Code/Mobile, BlackBerry CEO John Chen said that the company might quit the hardware business if it isn't profitable by 2016.

"Sometime next year we have to make our device business profitable, otherwise I have to rethink what I do there," Chen said. "My job is to make sure the value of the company is protected and increases. We do what makes sense to serve the customer."

Rather than building hardware, Chen said that the firm would focus on providing security solutions for other platforms - perhaps an unsurprising move given that BlackBerry Enterprise Server is already compatible with Android and iOS.

"Even if I'm not in the handset business, getting into providing security for Android lets us provide solutions via software," he added.

While a possible smartphone market exit could be on the cards for the firm, Chen remains optimistic. He believes that, thanks to BlackBerry's expertise in security, the firm's incoming Android smartphone - which Chen has no idea how to use - stands a good chance of succeeding, in particular in the business market.​
(TheInquirer)


----------



## Macfury

Nice way to tip your hand! What a dickwad--destroying investor value as he promises to protect investor value.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Nice way to tip your hand! What a dickwad--destroying investor value as he promises to protect investor value.


I am sure the Harper can find a place for him in the area of civil rights!


----------



## imactheknife

wow, that CEO it not a good front man for blackberry..that video was embarrassing...


----------



## CubaMark

Well, at least one review is in, and it's a mixed bag:

This phone is packed with high-end specs, tons of features and that famous BlackBerry keyboard, but does it have what it takes to get past the “old” namesake and teach modern users a thing or two about security?

* * *​
There’s a fair amount of value included in the rather large box the Priv comes in. Aside from the phone you’ll be getting a SIM/microSD tray eject tool, some manuals and promotional material, microUSB cable and a wall charger. For whatever reason the wall charger is only 5V 1.3 amp, meaning this one is going to take quite a while to charge from empty to full with the stock charger. No idea why a higher wattage charger isn’t included here, especially since the phone is powered by a Snapdragon 808 with QuickCharge ability.

* * *​
The display is the one thing you’re almost always going to notice first on a modern smartphone, and in the BlackBerry Priv’s case that’s a very good thing. The display sits somewhere inbetween “regular” and phablet sized at 5.4-inches, but is significantly enhanced by the curved edges the slope over the left and right sides. If you’ve ever used any of the Galaxy Edge devices from Samsung you’ll know what to expect here; the glass curves almost a full 90 degrees over a few millimeters of length, curving the actual display itself over the same edge. While there’s only so much functional purpose this serves it certainly will make you say wow.

* * *​
Viewing angles are amazing, there’s no color shimmer, and of course black levels are infinite and perfect. Brightness is off the charts and I never once struggled to see the screen outside, especially when adaptive brightness was turned off. There’s not even any trailing going from black to gray, which shows just how fast this panel refreshes from an off to on state. The digitizer is equally perfect and exhibits some of the finest multi-touch performance on the market. There was never any frustration with the panel not being able to keep up with fast typing or any kind of multi-touch motions, showing BlackBerry placed priorities on the touch experience itself here.

* * *​
this phone feels cheap. Super cheap. So cheap in fact that if you didn’t see the curved screen you might mistake this for a $200 Chinese phablet instead of the $700+ phone that it is. I have no idea why BlackBerry chose this cheap, sticky, flimsy plastic in an age where almost all OEMs are moving toward significantly more premium materials, but they did. The biggest offender is the back of the phone, which features a somewhat sticky rubberized plastic that feels more like a worn handle of an old tool than anything else. Besides just feeling gross the plastic back has noticeable give to it, a sign that there’s hollow regions behind this back to cover the sliding mechanism for the screen. Anything would have been better than this back and it ends up nearly ruining the feel of the phone entirely.

* * *​
On the design side of things you’ve got the power button on the left side of the phone, while there are a few volume buttons on the right side. Volume up and down are separate buttons with a strange single button in-between the two that simply brings up the volume panel. Since the two volume buttons already do this it’s definitely an odd existence for this third button.

* * *​
On top of these weird performance issues all over the place, this phone gets hot. I mean really hot too, capping out at about 50c/120f. That’s hot to any touch and while it’s not going to burn anyone, it’s certainly not going to feel good when holding for a long time.​
(Full review at: Android Headlines)


----------



## lcoughey

I have the new BlackBerry Priv and am quite satisfied with it. Of course, I think that BlackBerry 10 has a better OS experience. But, without the support of app developers, it seems that their own OS just can't compete. The move to Android will bring back a lot of BlackBerry fans who miss their physical touch sensitive keyboard and security, without losing native Snap2Chat client.

I admit, I was hoping that they could make the Android experience a lot more like BlackBerry 10, but can appreciate that it isn't as easy as it sounds.


----------



## Rps

Anyone have a BB Passport and like it? Not looking for a slam here, I am interested in the phone but can not seem to find one.


----------



## polywog

Rps said:


> Anyone have a BB Passport and like it? Not looking for a slam here, I am interested in the phone but can not seem to find one.


I would avoid it at this point. Given that they've released an Android phone, it may only be a matter of time before the Passport / BB10 is obsolete. 

I've handled one and didn't like the form factor as much as the classic.


----------



## Macfury

BlackBerry responds to Facebook's abandonment of BB10 | MobileSyrup.com


----------



## polywog

Macfury said:


> BlackBerry responds to Facebook's abandonment of BB10 | MobileSyrup.com


"BlackBerry is asking passionate users to tweet their discontent at Facebook" made me chuckle.


----------



## CubaMark

*BlackBerry's Hail Mary Throw With Two New Smartphones*








BlackBerry’s handset sales for the first calendar quarter of the year make for sobering reading. At 600,000 devices it missed the nominal target set by Wall Street, and fell well short of where the Canadian company needs to be achieving if it is to reach the previously stated goal of three million handset sales in 2016.

CEO John Chen has now said that BlackBerry will focus on the mid-range, with two new Android-powered handsets due out this year (reports The National’s John Everington). One will feature a physical keyboard – this is likely to be the BlackBerry Venice, previously reported on Forbes, while the other will be a full touchscreen device.

Although previously hinted at, Chen confirms the two handsets will be Android-powered.

Chen’s quote to Everington crystallizes BlackBerry’s view that the Priv was priced to high. “A lot of enterprise customers have said to us, ‘I want to buy your phone but $700 is a little too steep for me. I’m more interested in a $400 device’.”

I do wonder if a $400 Android phone designed by BlackBerry will be able to offer better value than similarly priced handsets from larger manufacturers with far more experience in Android. The days of an IT Department buying everyone a phone and the workers accepting it gladly have been tempered with the rise of ’Bring Your Own Device’.​
(Forbes)


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## Rps

Personally, I have had a number of BB phones and loved them. That said I am not an app guy, I text and use a phone as a phone. I am struggling to try and NOT buy a Passport. I like the phone, the PRIV is toooooooo expensive for what it is, and I am not a lover of Android, as I have it on my Nexus. The Vienna looks good, but knowing BB it will miss the launch time and they will probably cease being in the hardware business. A $400 phone seems right though.....Apple SE anyone.


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## heavyall

> Chen’s quote to Everington crystallizes BlackBerry’s view that the Priv was priced to high.


Yikes even Forbes doesn't proofread their online content. 

I like the form factor of that device, but I'm not interested in either BB or an Android device. I'd love it if Apple made a model like that.


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## Rps

I am really torn lately. I am looking for a new phone and would love a Passport. I have had great success with my Blackberrys. I looked at the PRIV but I think the slider may have some quality issues...the rep pretty much said as much. I think I have to really think why I want a phone....for calls or apps? I really like the quality and specs of the Passport, but the OS maybe an issue going forward. Been looking at the SE..... It's $100 more than the Passport, but.............


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## SINC

Given the slide in the OS and quality of Blackberry combined with massive moves to Apple by major corporations, any Blackberry purchase at this stage of the game is a risk of sliding into obscurity. Better an Android Samsung if price is your issue. Just my nickel's worth.


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## Rps

Hi Sinc, what you say is true, but old habits die hard I guess. I have been looking at the SE and the Samsung Note. But I really do not like Android, for some reason I seem to be updating almost daily on my Nexus which runs Android. Never had those issues with my prior Blackberrys and I haven't head my friends with iPhones complain about that either.


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## heavyall

My wife was just given a Passport at work, and she actually likes it compared to her previous touchscreen Blackberry. The wider physical keyboard makes keeping up with emails so much easier.

I firmly believe this is the only thing keeping BB holding on -- their hardware design is beloved by enough people. People who will pick the hardware over the software in many cases. If Apple had made just one model with a physical keyboard, Blackberry/RIM would have been out of business years ago.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> My wife was just given a Passport at work, and she actually likes it compared to her previous touchscreen Blackberry. The wider physical keyboard makes keeping up with emails so much easier.
> 
> 
> 
> I firmly believe this is the only thing keeping BB holding on -- their hardware design is beloved by enough people. People who will pick the hardware over the software in many cases. If Apple had made just one model with a physical keyboard, Blackberry/RIM would have been out of business years ago.



Apple's purpose was not to put Blackberry out of business. Apple's purpose was to create a new form factor—a black monolith if you will—with a blank slate that could be endlessly adapted for the purpose of the user. Clearly this was a winning strategy, as a larger blank screen was adopted by every single competitor at some point, including Blackberry and Apple themselves. The versatility is the key, without having half the real estate taken up by tiny buttons.


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## Macfury

Still love having physical buttons! Sticking with a Samsung that offers a keyboard, which slides out from behind the screen.


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## heavyall

fjnmusic said:


> Apple's purpose was not to put Blackberry out of business. Apple's purpose was to create a new form factor—a black monolith if you will—with a blank slate that could be endlessly adapted for the purpose of the user. Clearly this was a winning strategy, as a larger blank screen was adopted by every single competitor at some point, including Blackberry and Apple themselves. The versatility is the key, without having half the real estate taken up by tiny buttons.


Half? It's a tiny sliver, barely more than the bottom bezel on the iPhone. It's a superior form factor that should be available for those who want to pay for it. The masses want the lowest common denominator, they rarely choose what's actually the best. Mac sales, for instance, are still a tiny fraction of PC sales. Giving in to the larger demand was never an option for Apple or it's users because better is better even if no one else is smart enough to see it.


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## fjnmusic

heavyall said:


> Half? It's a tiny sliver, barely more than the bottom bezel on the iPhone. It's a superior form factor that should be available for those who want to pay for it. The masses want the lowest common denominator, they rarely choose what's actually the best. Mac sales, for instance, are still a tiny fraction of PC sales. Giving in to the larger demand was never an option for Apple or it's users because better is better even if no one else is smart enough to see it.



Well I prefer the variability of button sizes I get with a glass surface, even though I make mistakes galore when I type. Somehow I think I'd make the same mistakes on a BB. We briefly had a BB (one day), but the tiny chiclets for the calculator was a deal breaker. Not to mention the microsize internet browser at the time.


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## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Well I prefer the variability of button sizes I get with a glass surface, even though I make mistakes galore when I type. Somehow I think I'd make the same mistakes on a BB. We briefly had a BB (one day), but the tiny chiclets for the calculator was a deal breaker. Not to mention the microsize internet browser at the time.


I did not enjoy my time on a BB, which as used as a medical interface for a heart monitor.


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## polywog

My issue with BB has always been its software. Not the quality, but the painful, inconsistent upgrade cycle, and how splintered their (tiny) market share would become because of it. 

Mostly the fault of the carriers for sure.


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## CubaMark

polywog said:


> My issue with BB has always been its software.


I haven't had experience with any modern BB, but the 9650 (?) models that I, my wife, and my brothers-in-law had for a brief time a few years ago were... painful to use. 

And the BB Desktop Software for Mac hasn't been updated since 2013.... every bloody time I had to use it to offload media (why did I bother?), it locked up my laptop.

I was so happy to send that thing off to the techno trash bin and move up to my Moto-G...


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## CubaMark

_Interesting, given that BlackBerry's reputation has been built on security...._

*BlackBerry hands over user data to help police 'kick ass,'*

A specialized unit inside mobile firm BlackBerry has for years enthusiastically helped intercept user data — including BBM messages — to help in hundreds of police investigations in dozens of countries, a CBC News investigation reveals.

CBC News has gained a rare glimpse inside the struggling smartphone maker's Public Safety Operations team, which at one point numbered 15 people, and has long kept its handling of warrants and police requests for taps on user information confidential. 

A number of insiders, none of whom were authorized to speak, say that behind the scenes the company has been actively assisting police in a wide range of high profile investigations

But unlike many other technology companies, which regularly publish transparency reports, it is not clear how many requests BlackBerry receives each year, nor the number of requests it has fulfilled. 

Insiders say, for example, that BlackBerry intercepted messages to aid investigators probing the political scandals in Brazil that are dogging suspended President Dilma Rousseff. The company also helped authenticate BBM messages in Major League Baseball's drug investigation that saw New York Yankees star Alex Rodriguez suspended in 2014.​
(CBC)


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## CubaMark

Well, here's one person who thinks RIM ain't dead yet:

*BlackBerry isn't as screwed as you might have once thought*


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## CubaMark

*Well... I didn't see that coming!*

*Switching gears, Canada's BlackBerry to open autonomous vehicle hub*

Canada's BlackBerry Ltd (BB.TO) will open an autonomous driving research center on Monday, as it tries to make itself an indispensable under-the-hood piece of the automotive industry's weaponry in the self-driving vehicle arms race.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will attend the launch by the Waterloo, Ontario-based smartphone pioneer, the prime minister's office said on Sunday. A Blackberry spokeswoman deferred any comment on the project until Monday.

Blackberry, once known for its phones but now betting its future on the more profitable business of making software and managing mobile devices after largely ceding the smartphone market to the likes of Apple and Samsung, is expanding subsidiary QNX's Ottawa facility to focus on developing advanced driver assistance and autonomous vehicle technology.

After a detour where QNX's industrial-focused software was used to reinvent the now-discarded BlackBerry phone operating system, BlackBerry is focused on how its embedded software interacts with the explosion of sensors, cameras and other components required for a car to drive itself.

* * *​
BlackBerry and the university's research teams got the green light to test Ford Motor Co (F.N) Lincoln vehicles with autonomous features on Ontario's public roads late last month. The company has also inked a deal to work directly with the Detroit-based carmaker as it works to get fleets of robot ride-sharing vehicles to market by 2021.

Wall said the company is in advanced discussions with "more than one or two" other major global automakers about similar partnerships, but also cautioned that the hype of robot cars would take a long time to be fully realized.​
(Reuters)


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## SINC

Really? Another pipe dream by a failed company many times over?

Only not surprising part of it all, is that The Hairdo would attend such a thing. That alone is the kiss of death.


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## polywog

SINC said:


> Really? Another pipe dream by a failed company many times over?
> 
> Only not surprising part of it all, is that The Hairdo would attend such a thing. That alone is the kiss of death.


QNX has always performed strongly, even despite their purchase by BlackBerry. They are already in a lot of dashboards, in a lot of cars. This is a really smart move, and probably the only thing keeping BlackBerry afloat.


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## Joker Eh

*I'M BACK!*

With 0% market share now how much of joke are they now?


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## Macfury

Welcome back--this thread has gone full circle!


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