# Mulroney tops Trudeau, says Mulroney



## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

CBC: Mulroney tops Trudeau, says Mulroney

So, Mulroney thinks he's the second greatest Prime Minister of Canada, right after John eh MacDonald.

I suppose we can look at it this way:
1. Most of Mulroney's policies have survived, and have even been extended, by the Liberals. Free trade, the GST, transfer payment cuts to rich provinces.
2. While Mulroney represented a modest move towards conservativism, it was no where near as radical as Thatcher or Reagan. In particular, "moral issues" like abortion and gay rights continued grow in strength.
3. Mulroney pushed to repair the constitutional mess Trudeau left behind by spearheading the Meech Lake accord and the Charlottetown accord.

Biggest failures include the formation of the Reform Party and the BQ.

Trudeau's record includes:
1. Trudeau repatriated the constitution and brought about the Charter of Rights. He will forever be remembered for this.

But he will also be remembered for:

1. Most of Trudeau's economic policies have been dismantled. 
2. He agreed to allow the US to test the cruise missile in Canada. 
3. His arrogance towards the West and to Quebec separatists still stings. 
4. And the most unforgivable crime of Trudeau: the suspending of civil liberties and the arrest without charge of over 400 during the FLQ crisis.


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## yatko (Oct 9, 2004)

Mulll-ro-ney who?

As in Ben Mulroney?


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

It's Bullroney's chin. It's profoundly toxic, and has affected his brain.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> CBC: Mulroney tops Trudeau, says Mulroney
> 
> So, Mulroney thinks he's the second greatest Prime Minister of Canada, right after John eh MacDonald.
> 
> ...


So he suffers from delusions of grandeur...
Mulroney is so loved he can't get around Montreal without bodyguards.
Trudeau walked freely on Montreal streets.
Mulroney sold Canadian sovereignty to the US.
Mulroney forced NAFTA - it really works well with lumber....
Mulroney's failure at Meech pissed off the West and Quebec
Mulroney supported the first Gulf War farce.
Mulroney is still under suspicion for the AirBus affair.
Mulroney cares more about his "legacy" than Canada.
Mulroney, like most conservatives, had little fiscal responsibility.


Mr Dressup scores higher:
http://www.filibustercartoons.com/greatest Canadians.htm


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

Politics aside, Brian Mulroney's worst performance was the fathering of his son, Ben. But I suppose vacuous begats vacuous.

Mel


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Melonie said:


> Politics aside, Brian Mulroney's worst performance was the fathering of his son, Ben. But I suppose vacuous begats vacuous.


The whole Mulroney herd is rather an affront to humanity and class. Ben's demeanour on TV is the most grating and painful next to Valerie Pringle. Surely, a favour was called to get that job for "mamma's" boy...


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

This shows the arrogance of someone who will not let history render its verdict on their achievements or lack thereof.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

ArtistSeries said:


> ...Valerie Pringle...


I'll see your Valerie Pringle, and raise you one Pamela Wallin.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

Ben Mulroney
Valerie Pringle
Pamela Wallin

Perhaps a new thread entitled "Most Insincere Canadian Personalities" will come of this?

Mel


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

brian mulroney was one of the worst PMs in Canadian history as he did much damage to Canadian sovreignty and world status

Mulroney is downright evil and his self annointed ranking among PMs is only more proof of his malevolent megalomoania


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Feeling alliterative today Michael??? 



> Mulroney's .. malevolent megalomoania


 :clap:

was moania a typo or a cute word play


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Mr Dressup scores higher". AS, as do 63 other Canadians.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Now, now lets give Muldoon his due...











ummmmm...







oh yea... he is the last surviving Prime Minister....
Nope John Turner...






Well.. he is still alive...
At least he can watch his kid asking inane questions to b-list celebraties...

Makes a man proud...


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

A sage piece of advice my father gave to me at an early age and I think it applies in this instance: "self praise is a very poor recommendation". So Brian has trotted out the *"Big Lie"* once again. 

The question I always wanted answered is who is more smarmy Brian or Ben?


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## Craigger (Aug 8, 2005)

a quick search shows this on the mulroneys....(source wikipedia)

"Mulroney also writes a regular column for the Toronto Sun, a job he began after his father was appointed chairman of the board of Sun Media."


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Feeling alliterative today Michael???
> 
> :clap:
> 
> was moania a typo or a cute word play


That's hillarious - I was just about to say the same thing.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

So I guess the Great Mulroney has forgotten the extremely popular bumper sticker "TAX THIS, BRIAN!" with the cute middle finger illustration on it. He was so unpopular at the time that even Conservatives hated him.

Because of this he sent his own party into oblivion, from which they never recovered.

For forcing Canada down the road to the predatory, sovereignty destroying FTA and NAFTA, I consider him a traitor to this country. Not that Chretien and Martin are any less guilty now.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

It is too perfect! It HAD to be a purpose-driven alliteration. Then again, I suppose some literary careers were borne of chance...MACSPECTRUM?

Mel



MBD said:


> That's hillarious - I was just about to say the same thing.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


>


That reminds me of a documentary I saw on the CBC once about Somalia (if I remember correctly).

In the background of one filming shot, there was some African guy wearing a T-Shirt that said, "I hate the GST".


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> I suppose we can look at it this way:
> .....
> 3. Mulroney pushed to repair the constitutional mess Trudeau left behind by spearheading the Meech Lake accord and the Charlottetown accord.
> 
> ...


Trudeau was a visionary (albeit, with warts) and Mulroney is a fool. 

Mulroney created the constitutional mess, selling the revisionist myth that Quebec was "left out" of the constitution. He inflamed Quebec alienation. He welcomed separatists into his party, is personally responsible for the creation of the BQ, and the destruction of his own party. He is responsible for the ascent of a regional party - the Reform/Alliance/new Conservatives - in the place of his destroyed party, as well as the BQ. As such, the absence of a mainstream alternative to the Liberals in every election since he resigned, the creation of a virtual one-party Canada, is his real legacy.

His effort to amend the constitution was not for Canada's good, but his own ego trip, an effort to put his own mark on the constitution. His mark on the constitution was made by his salivating desperation for a place in history next to Trudeau. This is all the more obvious from his comments today. 

The shame of it is that he ran like a rat from his own party (to take up rich directorships with the multinationals he was so good to while in power), when its ship was sinking from the holes he made in it. He, obscenely and fraudulently, blames the catastrophic (to the PCs) loss to Chretien on Kim Campbell. If he had any character, he would have stayed on and let the Canadian public kick HIS ass. Then, he would not be in a position to make his delusional claims to greatness.

He was not even a good PM. He is, in my view, a candidate for the worst, most pernicious PM we have ever had.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Too bad really. He seemed to upset a lot of people. Oh well.

It takes a strong politician to do things that the general population thinks is idiotic.

Free trade? We needed it.
GST? We needed it.
He tried to unite this country, including Quebec. Seems we weren't ready for it. He's not the one to blame. We had a referendum. We as a people shot it down.

Unfortunately, we can only judge the Prime Ministers we have known in our lifetime.

Who can say what Canada was like under John Thompson, Arthur Meighan, Richard Bennett?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> He tried to unite this country, including Quebec. Seems we weren't ready for it. He's not the one to blame. ?


You sound like a PR flunky for the man.
His policies are what drove a greater wedge in the country. Quebec is part of Canada, so I'm not sure what you mean by "including Quebec". 
It's not a case of "weren't ready for it" as much as Mulroney was not the right politician.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Free trade? We needed it.


Nothing like selling Canada to the American $ - Sure we needed opening of the borders but have a look at soft wood lumber dispute... or any other dispute...
The US does what is wants the free trade is not worth the ink and paper it's printed on... Mulroney's vision of Canada was Mexico North....


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Feeling alliterative today Michael???
> 
> :clap:
> 
> was moania a typo or a cute word play


just having fun with werds


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Unfortunately, we can only judge the Prime Ministers we have known in our lifetime.


Untrue - Trudeau is still considered a great politician for Canada. Not a perfect one but 100 times what Mulroney is. I can't wait to spit on BM grave when he croaks.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Too bad really. He seemed to upset a lot of people. Oh well.


He's a liar, a crook and an egotistical idiot. He was the worse thing that ever happened to Canada. Maybe that's why he's not liked.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Free trade? We needed it.
> GST? We needed it.


Free trade? Large corporations needed it.
GST? Large corporations needed it.

Mulroney only represented those elites who want to manage Canada and its assets for their own purposes. He never represented those who actually live here.


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

These views are all interesting and I share many of them. 

I wonder what those OUTSIDE of Canada think about the man. That would be the real test if those from other nations consider him a dink or a glorious patriote that should be wrapped in the Maple Leaf.


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## fellfromtree (May 18, 2005)

Well he did kill his own party, and sent one of his right hands on to form the official opposition... to canada. I'll give him that.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

nxnw said:


> Mulroney created the constitutional mess, selling the revisionist myth that Quebec was "left out" of the constitution. He inflamed Quebec alienation. He welcomed separatists into his party, is personally responsible for the creation of the BQ, and the destruction of his own party.


 I guess you're not familiar with the faults of the repatriation, eh?


nxnw said:


> He is responsible for the ascent of a regional party - the Reform/Alliance/new Conservatives - in the place of his destroyed party, as well as the BQ.


 The rise of the Reform party was due to Mulroney's insistence not to give in to the "religious right," to anti-immigration policies, to capital punishment, to anti-abortion laws. And the Reformers had a bevey of ridiculous ideas (like direct democracy) and a hostility to the GST. I think Mulroney did the right thing on these issues, and the Reform ideas have clearly died away. In this, Mulroney's legacy seems even more secure.

As for the BQ, Mulroney was clearly blind-sided by a bunch of liars. Perhaps he was naive in thinking Bouchard could be trusted, but all of Canada was fooled too. We voted for the Tories twice knowing they had former separatists among them.


nxnw said:


> The shame of it is that he ran like a rat from his own party (to take up rich directorships with the multinationals he was so good to while in power), when its ship was sinking from the holes he made in it. He, obscenely and fraudulently, blames the catastrophic (to the PCs) loss to Chretien on Kim Campbell.


Kim Campbell enjoyed an enormous lead going into that election. She had great popularity, which she squandered with elistism and stupidity. (Is this the face of a Prime Minister?) Campbell and Manning destroyed the Tory party, not Mulroney.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> So he suffers from delusions of grandeur...


Thank you, doctor. Any further diagnosis?


ArtistSeries said:


> Mulroney sold Canadian sovereignty to the US.


Last I checked, we were still our own nation. I don't remember being in Iraq recently.


ArtistSeries said:


> Mulroney's failure at Meech pissed off the West and Quebec


Well that isn't hard to do.


ArtistSeries said:


> Mulroney supported the first Gulf War farce.


Heaven forbid that we should come to the assistance of a small nation invaded, raped, and crushed under the heel of a tyrant.


ArtistSeries said:


> Mulroney is still under suspicion for the AirBus affair.


No he isn't. In fact, he won millions in a defamation suit and received an official apology from the Government of Canada. Get your fact straight.


ArtistSeries said:


> Mulroney cares more about his "legacy" than Canada.


Um, since he isn't PM any more, what would you like him to do for Canada?


ArtistSeries said:


> Mulroney, like most conservatives, had little fiscal responsibility.


No argument. He and Trudeau had a lot in common here.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> He's a liar, a crook and an egotistical idiot. He was the worse thing that ever happened to Canada. Maybe that's why he's not liked.


Hyperbole. What did he lie about? What did he steal?

I'm sure may politicians wish they were the worse thing that ever happened to Canada, since it gets them elected Prime Minister twice.

Mulroney is not hated by Canadians. The Mulroney haters (Reformers, separatists, some Liberals, the NDP) just complain more loudly than most.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> brian mulroney was one of the worst PMs in Canadian history as he did much damage to Canadian sovreignty and world status
> 
> Mulroney is downright evil and his self annointed ranking among PMs is only more proof of his malevolent megalomoania




Give this a read: Canada Drops from 1st to 8th Best Place to Live. Then you can tell me about Canada's status in the world.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

IronMac said:


> This shows the arrogance of someone who will not let history render its verdict on their achievements or lack thereof.


Couldn't agree more IronMac. Many years ago I read the book- "The Quick and the Dead", do read it if you get the chance.

But please, everyone, it's not pronounced- Brian Mulroney... it's- Ryan Boloney.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

lpkmckenna said:


> Mulroney is not hated by Canadians. The Mulroney haters (Reformers, separatists, some Liberals, the NDP) just complain more loudly than most.


Gee, did that rainbow coalition of a list leave anyone out?


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

*That story is spin*



lpkmckenna said:


> Give this a read: Canada Drops from 1st to 8th Best Place to Live. Then you can tell me about Canada's status in the world.


Another person could read this article and see that Canada was #1 predominantly under Liberal governance when the Progressive Conservatives were at their lowest. One could even suggest that Canada's ranking fell as more and more conservatives became elected.

We can spin it whatever way we like.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> I guess you're not familiar with the faults of the repatriation, eh? The rise of the Reform party was due to Mulroney's insistence not to give in to the "religious right," to anti-immigration policies, to capital punishment, to anti-abortion laws. And the Reformers had a bevey of ridiculous ideas (like direct democracy) and a hostility to the GST. I think Mulroney did the right thing on these issues, and the Reform ideas have clearly died away. In this, Mulroney's legacy seems even more secure.
> 
> As for the BQ, Mulroney was clearly blind-sided by a bunch of liars. Perhaps he was naive in thinking Bouchard could be trusted, but all of Canada was fooled too. We voted for the Tories twice knowing they had former separatists among them.Kim Campbell enjoyed an enormous lead going into that election. She had great popularity, which she squandered with elistism and stupidity. (Is this the face of a Prime Minister?) *Campbell and Manning destroyed the Tory party, not Mulroney.*




do you owe Mulroney money?
that kind of bull**** is worthy of David Frum's propaganda


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> So, Mulroney thinks he's the second greatest Prime Minister of Canada, right after John eh MacDonald.


So now I need to criticize myself. This is not what Mulroney said. Here's a more accurate quote:

"By the time history is done looking at this, and you look at my achievements as opposed to others, certainly no one will be in Sir John A.'s league -- but my nose will be a little ahead of most in terms of achievements," Newman quotes Mulroney as saying.

Much more moderate, I think.


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## pdksh (Aug 15, 2005)

lpkmckenna said:


> What did he lie about? What did he steal?


A lengthy legal invenstigation by the RCMP? I understand that he was "cleared" but that does not mean he's inocent. It just means he didn't get caught. BM then sued "CANADA" for millions, taking even more from my house hold income, after he was nolonger PM.

BM handed a dead party over to Kim, Kim was nothing more then a political stunt to try an win some votes with the ladies.

I don't know about you but every time I purchase an item and pay an additional 7% sales tax I get a hard solid knot in my gut. 

As for Free Trade/NAFTA, what a joke... Canadian Beef, Softwood lumber, jobs all sit at the border while my OIL and NATURAL GAS goes south. My home heating costs go up at a consistint rate every year. I was under the impression that CANADA had enough Natural Gas to burn for eternity. Free Trade and a Pipe from Alberta to Chicago makes Natural Gas a rare commodity. With the ground work layed down with FreeTrade and the World Trade Organization we as citizens are screwed. Corperations will sell our national resources to the US and China and we can do nothing about it. As a citizen I have to pay a premium for something that sits in aboundance in my own back yard???

lpkmckenna, you should take your head out of your, nah... leave it there...


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> Kim Campbell enjoyed an enormous lead going into that election. She had great popularity, which she squandered with elistism and stupidity. (Is this the face of a Prime Minister?) Campbell and Manning destroyed the Tory party, not Mulroney.


MACSPECTRUM, I guess reading the preceding lines make things clearer? If Campbell and her handlers hadn't screwed up royally, she would have won. The office was hers for the taking.

And isn't it interesting that Manning finally came around to realizing that 2 conservative parties in Canada was a no-win situation? Manning's insistence on less immigration, more "direct democracy," and fewer personal freedoms has completely vanished. But Mulroney's legacy of balanced conservatism, personal freedom, and free trade lives on.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

pdksh said:


> A lengthy legal invenstigation by the RCMP? I understand that he was "cleared" but that does not mean he's inocent. It just means he didn't get caught. BM then sued "CANADA" for millions, taking even more from my house hold income, after he was nolonger PM.


You can blame Chretien for that. And if beating an RCMP investigation and winning a civil suit against a national government doesn't prove innocence, nothing does.



pdksh said:


> BM handed a dead party over to Kim, Kim was nothing more then a political stunt to try an win some votes with the ladies.


That's not what the polls at the time said.



pdksh said:


> I don't know about you but every time I purchase an item and pay an additional 7% sales tax I get a hard solid knot in my gut.


You were already paying that tax, but it was hidden before (13% on manufactured goods). I would like to pay less tax also, but at least this way I know how much I am paying. The GST rebate is a great thing for many students and low-income families, too.



pdksh said:


> As for Free Trade/NAFTA, what a joke... Canadian Beef, Softwood lumber, jobs all sit at the border while my OIL and NATURAL GAS goes south. My home heating costs go up at a consistint rate every year. I was under the impression that CANADA had enough Natural Gas to burn for eternity. Free Trade and a Pipe from Alberta to Chicago makes Natural Gas a rare commodity. With the ground work layed down with FreeTrade and the World Trade Organization we as citizens are screwed. Corperations will sell our national resources to the US and China and we can do nothing about it. As a citizen I have to pay a premium for something that sits in aboundance in my own back yard???


Too may mistruths to bother with.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

gwillikers said:


> Many years ago I read the book- "The Quick and the Dead", do read it if you get the chance.


Skip the book. The movie was better.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> I guess you're not familiar with the faults of the repatriation, eh?


Perhaps you can enlighten us. BTW, it was not "re"patriated.



lpkmckenna said:


> The rise of the Reform party was due to Mulroney's insistence not to give in to the "religious right," to anti-immigration policies, to capital punishment, to anti-abortion laws. And the Reformers had a bevey of ridiculous ideas (like direct democracy) and a hostility to the GST. I think Mulroney did the right thing on these issues, and the Reform ideas have clearly died away.


Better tell Michael Harper. He thinks his party is socially conservative and caters to all of those constituencies. The reform party swallowed up the PC party, after the PCs were critically injured by Mulroney.



lpkmckenna said:


> As for the BQ, Mulroney was clearly blind-sided by a bunch of liars.


i.e., he wasn't a bad PM, just a gullible dupe. Even if he was blind sided, I don't see a gullible dupe as a great PM.

In my view, he was worse. Mulroney was willfully blind to their agendas. He wanted to win seats in Quebec at any costs, and we are all paying the price. 



lpkmckenna said:


> Kim Campbell enjoyed an enormous lead going into that election. She had great popularity, which she squandered with elistism and stupidity. (Is this the face of a Prime Minister?) Campbell and Manning destroyed the Tory party, not Mulroney.


You left out the smiley face.

Do you really believe Mulroney wpuld have won that election?


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## pdksh (Aug 15, 2005)

lpkmckenna said:


> 2. While Mulroney represented a modest move towards conservativism, it was no where near as radical as Thatcher or Reagan. In particular, "moral issues" like abortion and gay rights continued grow in strength.





lpkmckenna said:


> But Mulroney's legacy of balanced conservatism, personal freedom, and free trade lives on.


What exactly are you trying to say? Was better to put "moral issues" on the back burner? or is todays government choices to support certain "moral issues" a better idea, living on in Mulroney's dream?



lpkmckenna said:


> Too may mistruths to bother with.


Mistruths? exacly what percentage of manufactures removed the 13% "unseen" tax and what percentage of manufactures/retailers just left the sticker price alone? The auto industry did reduce prices, all bet not the full 13% but that only lasted for months? days? hours?. Gone shopping for a car lately?

What exact precentage of products that did not have the 13% percent "unseen" tax have to incorperate the 7% GST? Thats an easy one... ALL!!!

By supporting global free trade you support the whole sale sell of Canada's natrual resources. It is more then appearent that Canadian Governts will not "force" other countries to purchase Canadian manufactured goods. When all manufacturing is in ASIA and all inteletual work is done in INDIA you and I will have all day to sit and discuss FREE TRADE because we will both be out of work.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> So now I need to criticize myself. This is not what Mulroney said.


I'm glad you are a fan of the worst Canadian Prime Minister. 
Shall we look at BM own words in that book? Which btw, only confirm what many knew - that he's a pompous twit. 
He call Trudeau an "as*h***"
Clyde Wells a son of a bitch
Lucien Bouchard a vain "bastard"
Jean Chrétien "a mean dirty bastards"
Oppostion members Nazis and complain that Adolf Hitler was better portrayed in the press. "Even f***ing Hitler had someone writing one good adjective"

Mulroney's government was the most corrupt in Canadian history. Your BM has yet to explain how he received $300 000 from Karlheinz Schreiber.

Kim Campbell in an email to Canwest wrote:
" In 1993, Brian Mulroney was the most unpopular prime minister in the history of Canadian polling and the Progressive Conservative Party was at historically low levels of support.

The question begs asking is why he then gave me, as his successor, only 2.5 months to turn the party fortunes around before an election had to be called. ..... He suggest that we could have won by running on his record, but he lacked the courage to stay and fight an election when all reasonable deadlines for stepping down had passed.

He waited until the last minute - using the resources of the prime ministership to travel the world in a "farewell" tour of events that often seemed designed to help his post-political career - and then worked to ensure that the campaign would not criticise that record. 

His use of vulgar language and willingness to credit baseless gossip are an unwelcome reminder of those times when he made cabinet colleagues like mysefl uncomfortable.

The effect of hearing Brian Mulroney in his own voice is, sadly, to remind Canadians of why they didn't' like him and delay what he so clearly craves and feels he deserves - respect for the achievements of his government.

What Brian Mulroney wanted in 1993 was not a successor who could actually have a chance to govern, but a scapegoat who would bear the electoral burden of his unpopularity, and allow him to retire "undefeated" into the historical pantheon of which he is convinced he is a member"

This is Brian's legacy and how he should be remembered.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> I'm glad you are a fan of the worst Canadian Prime Minister.


I'm not a fan. I just don't condemn him the way others do. Chretien was more fiscally conservative, for instance. I just think Mulroney was an important bulwark against the rising irrationalism of reactionary conservatism embodied in the Reform party and the anti-trade stance of the NDP and Liberals (who have since come around).


ArtistSeries said:


> Shall we look at BM own words in that book? Which btw, only confirm what many knew - that he's a pompous twit.
> He call Trudeau an "as*h***"
> Clyde Wells a son of a bitch
> Lucien Bouchard a vain "bastard"
> ...


Sounds like a typical day of name-calling at ehMac. At least he didn't tell the opposition to f-off in the House of Commons.


ArtistSeries said:


> Mulroney's government was the most corrupt in Canadian history. Your BM has yet to explain how he received $300 000 from Karlheinz Schreiber.


Yes he has. It was for consulting. And it was after he stepped down as PM. And as for "most corrupt" I think the investigation into AdScam demonstrates otherwise.


ArtistSeries said:


> Kim Campbell in an email to Canwest wrote:
> " In 1993, Brian Mulroney was the most unpopular prime minister in the history of Canadian polling and the Progressive Conservative Party was at historically low levels of support.
> 
> The question begs asking is why he then gave me, as his successor, only 2.5 months to turn the party fortunes around before an election had to be called. ..... He suggest that we could have won by running on his record, but he lacked the courage to stay and fight an election when all reasonable deadlines for stepping down had passed.
> ...


Again, Kim Campbell had enormous popularity when she became Prime Minister. She could have won. She screwed it up all by herself.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

pdksh said:


> What exact precentage of products that did not have the 13% percent "unseen" tax have to incorperate the 7% GST? Thats an easy one... ALL!!!


Not quite. Certain products (literature, children's clothes) were exempt. But I can't really remember all of them. I'll get back to you...


pdksh said:


> By supporting global free trade you support the whole sale sell of Canada's natrual resources. It is more then appearent that Canadian Governts will not "force" other countries to purchase Canadian manufactured goods. When all manufacturing is in ASIA and all inteletual work is done in INDIA you and I will have all day to sit and discuss FREE TRADE because we will both be out of work.


Have you ever thought about where that Apple computer you are typing on was manufactured? How much more would it have cost you if it was made in the US or Canada?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> Sounds like a typical day of name-calling at ehMac. At least he didn't tell the opposition to f-off in the House of Commons.


This is a man that so wants a legacy that he will never get....



lpkmckenna said:


> Yes he has. It was for consulting. And it was after he stepped down as PM.


So he received this money for work while he was in office? Or did he earn that money within the 2 months he left office? And why drop off the money at an hotel room? 
And receiving money for consulting from an international arms dealer?
Karlheinz Schreiber is still wanted in Germany no? He did discredit Kohl's legacy...

and


> He was a key figure in Canada's Airbus affair in which he was alleged to have arranged secret commissions to be paid to Brian Mulroney and lobbyist Frank Moores in exchange for then Crown corporation Air Canada's purchase of Airbus jets. Schreiber had previously been a key fundraiser in Mulroney's successful campaign to win the leadership of the Progressive Conservative party in 1983
> 
> Since 1999 the Canadian resident has fought extradition to his native Germany due to allegations of fraud, bribery and failure to pay $20 million in taxes to the German government on commissions related to sales in the 1980s of Airbus jets.


Good friends there Brian....



lpkmckenna said:


> Kim Campbell had enormous popularity when she became Prime Minister. She could have won. She screwed it up all by herself.


No she did not. You have the most unpopular PM give you his legacy to run on and... well re-read what Campbell wrote...




> " In 1993, Brian Mulroney was the most unpopular prime minister in the history of Canadian polling and the Progressive Conservative Party was at historically low levels of support.
> 
> The question begs asking is why he then gave me, as his successor, only 2.5 months to turn the party fortunes around before an election had to be called. ..... He suggest that we could have won by running on his record, but he lacked the courage to stay and fight an election when all reasonable deadlines for stepping down had passed.


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2002)

Here I am sick at home in bed with nothing better to do but cough up phlegm. Somehow this thread seems perfectly fitting.

It does bring back fond memories of my absolute favourite Frank Magazine cover with that smiling, rosey apple cheeked mug of our pal Brian with the byline "Polishing a Turd". .........Priceless!

And speaking of our dearly departed "Franky", it's coming back as an ezine on Sept 21. Wow, what timing, the battle of the undead is forthcoming. What can it all mean?
Franky's Back


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Rob said:


> And speaking of our dearly departed "Franky", it's coming back as an ezine on Sept 21. Wow, what timing, the battle of the undead is forthcoming. What can it all mean?
> Franky's Back


It's great to have them back.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

I love the little animation on the eFrank web page.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> So he received this money for work while he was in office? Or did he earn that money within the 2 months he left office?


He earned it after he left office, over the course of 2 years. And he declared it and paid taxes on it. Doesn't sound like the actions of a man covering his crime.


ArtistSeries said:


> And receiving money for consulting from an international arms dealer?


What does being an arms dealer have to do with a scandal about airplanes?


ArtistSeries said:


> Karlheinz Schreiber is still wanted in Germany no? He did discredit Kohl's legacy. Good friends there Brian....


Brian Mulroney made literally thousands of contacts as Prime Minister. To condemn him for having business dealings with one who later violated the law is shooting fish in a barrel. Don't you have a former friend, a relative, or co-worker who was charged with something?

If Campbell wanted to complain about taking over from a leader she hated, she shouldn't have attempted to take over in the first place.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> He earned it after he left office, over the course of 2 years. And he declared it and paid taxes on it.


He was paid cash in an hotel room. I don't know of many legit business dealing for "consulting" work that are cash and in an hotel room - it is as shady as it sound. 
Mulroney tried to hid the fact that he received the cash.
The Airbus investigation was for his accepting kickbacks on the sale of Airbus planes while he was PM.
The money Mulroney received was for helping promote a fresh pasta business and consulting fees, and develop contacts. Mulroney tried to hide that he received commissions for the longest time. 







lpkmckenna said:


> Doesn't sound like the actions of a man covering his crime.





lpkmckenna said:


> What does being an arms dealer have to do with a scandal about airplanes?Brian Mulroney made literally thousands of contacts as Prime Minister. To condemn him for having business dealings with one who later violated the law is shooting fish in a barrel.


.... I'd like you to met Pablo, he's an import-export dealer... 
Unless that business man is a close friend and big Conservative fundraiser. And that he is guilty of fund-raising crimes in Germany has to be the biggest coincidence in the world, right?




lpkmckenna said:


> If Campbell wanted to complain about taking over from a leader she hated, she shouldn't have attempted to take over in the first place.


Please, the Mulroney was a failure and destroyed is party. The PC have never recovered.

His government was corrupt as the man himself and inept.
Tunagate:
This 1985 fiasco brought down Brian Mulroney's minister of fisheries and oceans and robbed a New Brunswick town of its main employer. The story broke on CBC's The Fifth Estate on Sept. 17, 1985: Fisheries minister John Fraser had overturned an order from his own inspectors and ordered a million cans of StarKist tuna released for sale to the public

All the other Mulroney ministers: Pity poor Brian Mulroney. The Progressive Conservative prime minister lost an average of one cabinet minister to allegations of wrongdoing during each year of his 1984-1993 reign. 

First there was Robert Coates, who stepped down as defence minister in 1985 after it was revealed that he had visited a strip club in West Germany while in that country on official business. Communications Minister Marcel Masse left over an alleged violation of the Canada Elections Act (he was later exonerated), followed closely by John Fraser. 

In 1986, Minister of Regional Industrial Expansion Sinclair Stevens stepped down because of conflict of interest allegations related to a $2.6-million loan to a Stevens family company. André Bissonnette, the minister of state for transport, resigned in 1987 while the RCMP investigated his alleged involvement in land speculation. Roch La Salle, who served Mulroney in the public works, and supply and services portfolios, left cabinet the same year after being charged with demanding a bribe and accepting money from businesses looking for government favours. The charges were later dropped. 

Conflict of interest allegations involving a personal loan felled Supply and Services Minister Michel Coté in 1988. Bernard Valcourt stepped down in 1989 after pleading guilty to an impaired driving offence. In 1990, current Quebec Premier Jean Charest had to leave his two posts as minister for fitness and amateur sport, and minister for youth after trying to talk to a judge about an ongoing case. 

And, finally, in 1991, Housing Minister Alan Redway offered his resignation after being charged over joking about having a gun while boarding a flight at the Ottawa airport. (Not a cabinet minister but equally embarrassing to the Conservatives was Quebec MP Michel Gravel, who in 1986 was charged with 50 counts of fraud and influence peddling. He later pleaded guilty to 15 charges, paid a $50,000 fine and served four months in jail. 

(Not a cabinet minister but equally embarrassing to the Conservatives was Quebec MP Michel Gravel, who in 1986 was charged with 50 counts of fraud and influence peddling. 

Airbus: Long out of politics, former Progressive Conservative prime minister Brian Mulroney was dragged back into the public arena, thanks to the RCMP and a lobbyist called Karlheinz Schreiber. As part of an investigation into Schreiber's role in an alleged plot involving secret commissions and kickbacks in deals for the purchase of airplanes and helicopters, the federal Justice Department sent a letter to the Swiss government. The 1995 letter alleged that Mulroney was also involved in the arrangement, taking kickbacks on the sale of Airbus planes to Air Canada during his time as prime minister. 

When the letter became public, Mulroney sued the federal government for defamation, seeking $50 million in damages. Two years later, he settled for $2 million in legal costs and an apology from Ottawa. The RCMP finally ended its criminal investigation against Mulroney in April 2003, citing a lack of evidence. 


- Free Trade favoured big business
- He left office with record government deficits

Campbell has it right. 

I can't wait to urinate on the man's grave.


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

When Kim Campbell took over, she had a HUGE popularity lead. Her few months of campaiging totally ruined it though. Wasn't Mulroney's fault.

If she had called an election immediately, she would have won.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

guytoronto said:


> When Kim Campbell took over, she had a HUGE popularity lead. Her few months of campaiging totally ruined it though. Wasn't Mulroney's fault.
> 
> If she had called an election immediately, she would have won.


Odd, but all I can remember about Madam Airhead's campaign was her statement that during an election campaign, it was not a good idea to be debating issues.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

I don't remember her popularity being high at all. BM and his party was rather low...


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> He was paid cash in an hotel room. I don't know of many legit business dealing for "consulting" work that are cash and in an hotel room - it is as shady as it sound. Mulroney tried to hid the fact that he received the cash.


Last time I checked, hard cash and hotel rooms are still legal in Canada. And far from hiding, Mulroney declared the income. While a judge wagged her tongue nastily at Brian, she asserted that he had done nothing illegal or improper.


ArtistSeries said:


> .... I'd like you to met Pablo, he's an import-export dealer...
> Unless that business man is a close friend and big Conservative fundraiser. And that he is guilty of fund-raising crimes in Germany has to be the biggest coincidence in the world, right?


He is guilty, is he? Can you see the future or something? He hasn't even been arrested for the charges! If you're gonna make an argument, a few supporting fact will help....


ArtistSeries said:


> First there was Robert Coates, who stepped down as defence minister in 1985 after it was revealed that he had visited a strip club in West Germany while in that country on official business.


Heaven forbid a grown man should see naked girls. Was he charged with anything?


ArtistSeries said:


> Communications Minister Marcel Masse left over an alleged violation of the Canada Elections Act (he was later exonerated), followed closely by John Fraser.


If he was exonerated, why mention it?


ArtistSeries said:


> In 1986, Minister of Regional Industrial Expansion Sinclair Stevens stepped down because of conflict of interest allegations related to a $2.6-million loan to a Stevens family company.


Allegations? Any charges here?


ArtistSeries said:


> André Bissonnette, the minister of state for transport, resigned in 1987 while the RCMP investigated his alleged involvement in land speculation.


Did the RCMP charge him, or not?


ArtistSeries said:


> Roch La Salle, who served Mulroney in the public works, and supply and services portfolios, left cabinet the same year after being charged with demanding a bribe and accepting money from businesses looking for government favours. The charges were later dropped.


Gee, a guy actually charged. But then cleared. I see a pattern here.


ArtistSeries said:


> Conflict of interest allegations involving a personal loan felled Supply and Services Minister Michel Coté in 1988.


More allegations! Are you sure you're not misspelling alligators?


ArtistSeries said:


> Bernard Valcourt stepped down in 1989 after pleading guilty to an impaired driving offence.


Wow, you got one. Doesn't sound much like corruption to me, though.


ArtistSeries said:


> In 1990, current Quebec Premier Jean Charest had to leave his two posts as minister for fitness and amateur sport, and minister for youth after trying to talk to a judge about an ongoing case.


Gee, a 30 yr old Cabinet Minister did something stupid. Must be corruption!


ArtistSeries said:


> And, finally, in 1991, Housing Minister Alan Redway offered his resignation after being charged over joking about having a gun while boarding a flight at the Ottawa airport.


Another one charged. Did he do it? Or did they let him get away, too?


ArtistSeries said:


> (Not a cabinet minister but equally embarrassing to the Conservatives was Quebec MP Michel Gravel, who in 1986 was charged with 50 counts of fraud and influence peddling. He later pleaded guilty to 15 charges, paid a $50,000 fine and served four months in jail.


Because, as we know, the Prime Minister of Canada knows the private activities of all 58 Tory MPs from Quebec.


ArtistSeries said:


> When the letter became public, Mulroney sued the federal government for defamation, seeking $50 million in damages. Two years later, he settled for $2 million in legal costs and an apology from Ottawa. The RCMP finally ended its criminal investigation against Mulroney in April 2003, citing a lack of evidence.


In plain English, he didn't do it.


ArtistSeries said:


> Free Trade favoured big business


No kidding?


ArtistSeries said:


> He left office with record government deficits


He's in good company, unfortunately.



ArtistSeries said:


> Campbell has it right.


Kim Campbell squandered her enormous popularity with stupid mistakes (is this the face of a leader?), arrogance (this is no time for a policy debate!), and stammering in the face of the Liberal's "Red Book." Incidentally, the Tories were 3rd in overall votes, ahead of the NDP and BQ. And the Tories and Reformers together would have had a majority gov't. But Manning had already pulled his Belinda Stronach move and decided to go his own way rather than work within the PC party.


ArtistSeries said:


> I can't wait to urinate on the man's grave.


Try to remember, this man was once our nation's leader. Please find a real bastard to piss on (like a tyrant or a serial killer, not a politician you disliked).


----------



## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

By the way, Artist Series, next time you cut'n'paste from the CBC website, let us know. Thank you.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Sorry about that -


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

No problem.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> Last time I checked, hard cash and hotel rooms are still legal in Canada. And far from hiding, Mulroney declared the income. While a judge wagged her tongue nastily at Brian, she asserted that he had done nothing illegal or improper.He is guilty, is he?


When was the last time a business deal was done cash for nebulous work?
When did he declare the income? After the scandal broke out or before?
How long did he deny it?
Lack of evidence does not mean he's did not do it...





lpkmckenna said:


> Can you see the future or something? He hasn't even been arrested for the charges! If you're gonna make an argument, a few supporting fact will help....


He's been fighting extradition to Germany since 1999. He was told to surrender himself but is still exhausting appeals. 
And yes, he was implicated in the financial scandal in Germany.
The man has a history and a pattern that does not change
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/610475.stm






lpkmckenna said:


> Heaven forbid a grown man should see naked girls.


 It should actually be women - but I digress...

He was in a strip club in Germany with secret Nato documents. What a great example.





lpkmckenna said:


> Try to remember, this man was once our nation's leader. Please find a real bastard to piss on (like a tyrant or a serial killer, not a politician you disliked).


I have.....


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## Fink-Nottle (Feb 25, 2001)

"He bugs us still"... what a great line. And very true. As a teenager I couldn't stand Mulroney and even joined John Turner's Liberals to fight the free trade deal. Looking back though, my opinion of him has softened. He may not be likeable but his legacy is sizable and it is debatably a positive one:

1. No one likes taxes but the standardized GST was a vast improvement on what went before it and laid the groundwork for our fiscal success in the decade to come. Chretien promised to kill it but changed his mind when he got into power.

2. The Free Trade deal was not so much a move toward the US sphere of influence but a recognition of the fact we were already there. Formalizing this with an international treaty was an attempt to protect our economy against the arbitrary and punitive protectionist measures sometimes adopted by the US. With some notable exceptions, it has generally worked. Again, note that Chretien did not reverse it... despite his promises.

3. Internationally Mulroney was no colossus but he supported sanctions against South Africa (well done!) and generally maintained the armed forces. One of his last acts was to purchase new helicopters to replace the aging Sea Kings. Jean Chretien killed that deal, costing us over half a billion dollars in cancellation fees. Twenty years later, after several ancient Sea Kings fell out of the sky, the Liberals reversed that decision. Mulroney's government also proposed replacing our old subs with a nuclear fleet... a move that was delayed due to the cost but then killed by the Liberals. They opted instead to purchase some cheap, mothballed submarines from the UK... which have predictably proven to be less than seaworthy.

Bottom line... Mulroney's government made some big, unpopular, decisions that left a legacy. Chretien and the Liberals made maximum political capital from attacking these decisions but did nothing to change them when they were elected... except for killing the helicopter deal which in retrospect was a mistake, and buying cheap used subs rather then something decent... another mistake. True, Mulroney bungled Meech and oversaw some corrupt individuals (mostly in his Quebec wing) but these flaws pale in comparison to what Chretien nearly got away with. Come back BM the PM... almost all is forgiven.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> When was the last time a business deal was done cash for nebulous work? When did he declare the income? After the scandal broke out or before? How long did he deny it?


C'mon! I'm not a financial investigator. The prosecutors said he received kickbacks. The judge said he didn't. In fact, the judge said specifically that Mulroney did not perjure himself.


ArtistSeries said:


> Lack of evidence does not mean he's did not do it...


Innocent until proven guilty. He was not merely exonerated in the courts, he took the gov't of Canada to court to prove they were lying!

I'm getting tired of this thread. My motives were simple: defend a defamed man. I do not think Mulroney was a great prime minister. But he was good enough. Canada has been spared the far-right and far-left. Even the left-most of Canada's leaders (Douglas, Trudeau, Rae) were very moderate in comparison to their counterparts in Europe. And not everybody likes Klein, but he's not Reagan by any means.

I'm amazed how a moderate can have so much passion against him. Mulroney has become one of those topics (like separatism or religion) you cannot discuss in polite society: people get too worked up.

I think Mulroney represents a sensible, Canadian approach. He was good enough because he was a bulwark against a miserable slide to the right, while being able to undo the worst excesses of Trudeau.

I think Mulroney is right: history will judge him well, and better than Trudeau. You don't have to agree with free trade, but you do have to agree that Mulroney started the world-wide trend of trade liberalization. He went to Washington and said "I want to talk about free trade."

Social Conservatism is mostly dead, too. He didn't kill it, he just saw that it was dying, and distanced himself. The demand to end abortion, decrease immigration, marginalize homosexuals, re-instate capital punishment, and ban pornography was lessened by his government, and that trend continues.

You're good enough if you can prevent things from getting worse. You're great if you can make things better. Canada is still waiting for great leaders.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> I'm getting tired of this thread. My motives were simple: defend a defamed man.
> 
> I'm amazed how a moderate can have so much passion against him. Mulroney has become one of those topics (like separatism or religion) you cannot discuss in polite society: people get too worked up.
> 
> ...


Shall we revisit this in 5 years then?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

What did Chretian ever do for this country?


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> Shall we revisit this in 5 years then?


I'll see ya then


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

I don't know if anyone pointed to this...

Peter C. Newman book on former Prime Minister


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> Innocent until proven guilty.


That is the test for conviction under criminal law. It is not a test of whether or not something is true.


lpkmckenna said:


> I think Mulroney is right: history will judge him well, and better than Trudeau.
> ...
> You're good enough if you can prevent things from getting worse. You're great if you can make things better. Canada is still waiting for great leaders.


Trudeau was a great leader. He had a real, great and sincere vision for this country. Whatever his flaws may have been, his focus throughout his career was to make Canada better, and that's what he did. HIS life's work was for Canada to have its own constitution and a Charter of Rights, and for Canada to be a "just society". These were great things, done for us and not for Trudeau's own interests. The revisionist argument that this created some kind of constitutional mess is a lie perpetrated by separatists and by Mulroney himself. 

The Charter was, however, the stated deal breaker for the separatist PQ national assembly because it entrenched minority language rights and mobility rights. This was a deceitful premise and, in any event, is now swept under the rug in favour of Quebec's "humiliation" - an invention of Bouchard and Mulroney post Meech Lake. You may recall that Levesque invoked the "notwithstanding clause" in every single Quebec statute to put all Quebec laws above the Charter, yet subsequent PQ governments declined to reinvoke the "notwithstanding clause" after its initial 5 years expired). Few people, including separatists, persist in arguing against the Charter. 

The Charter is a great thing, defining an important part of what it means to be Canadian.

As for patriating the Constitution, it was previously a simple statute of the British parliament. Now it is the supreme law of Canada, our OWN constitution. Before it was patriated, there was no amending formula, and the federal government legally had the right to ask the British parliament to amend it without the consent of any province. In fact, although it would have been contrary to convention, the British Parliament could have amended our constitution without even asking us. Another country had legal control pover our supreme law. 

Now there is a formal amending formula where Quebec has an effective veto to any amendment. 

So, how exactly has Quebec been wronged? What "mess" did Trudeau make? Indeed, all of the other premiers confirm that Levesque had agreed privately to the Charter and patriation, and then backed out. Why back out? Because a separatist who wants to tear the country apart needs an axe to grind. 

Trudeau gave us a palace and Mulroney vandalized it. With bastards like Mulroney spreading lies about the patriation to suit is own personal agenda - behaviour ABSOLUTELY repugnant to his most vital duties to Canada - the separatists had their greatest ally.

Mulroney's life's work was pure self interest. He wanted to be a father of our constitution, just like Trudeau. The tapes make this all the more clear that he was slobberingly desperate to make his mark, and did so at the expense of the country's good. 

A lesser but also important issue is where he went after he left politics, and why. When he was not busy defacing our constitution and inflaming divisions in the country, he spent his time kissing up to multinational corporations (extending drug patents, for instance) to pave his way for the fabulous wealth he has since achieved from board positions on an obscene number of these companies.

He was a terrible, petty, small minded and self interested prime minister.

And all of this, so you know, is why so many Canadians hate him.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

Thank you, nxnw. And AS too!

I doubt that your truths will budge lpkmckenna's position, however. Not to say that he/she should budge, but I do have such a hard time understanding anyone who can support BM as ever being "good for Canada".

Mel


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Melonie said:


> Thank you, nxnw. And AS too!
> 
> I doubt that your truths will budge lpkmckenna's position, however. Not to say that he/she should budge, but I do have such a hard time understanding anyone who can support BM as ever being "good for Canada".
> 
> Mel


funny how BM is also short form for "bowel movement"
kinda ironic, eh?


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM, your mind works in mysterious ways...and I love it!

No soup? Then it's two BM's for you! (Ben and Brian, travelling blissfully down the colon of public opinion, without a care, not realizing that when they are flushed from our collective memories, few will really care).

 

Mel


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

If anyone has the Montreal Gazette of September 14th there is a good article that quotes history professor Graeme Decarie.


> "The man's ego is insufferable and he talks like Tony Soprano.
> This suggest a serious ego problem. Even if he was a great prime minister; to say that would be too much. I can't imagine a Winston Churchill, who is somewhat more important, standing up and saying I am the most important prime minister Britain ever had." Decarie said he would hardly call the GST an accomplishment. The same goes for the NAFTA, which the United States is choosing to ignore, and the failed Meech Lake constitutional accord, he said. Another historian, Morton of McGill said:" He's been busy trying to build his reputation. How could he let Newman sit there with a tape recorder and assume it was going to be beneficial to him... How could the greatest prime minister of Earth allow such folly to occur?"


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

AS, maybe we should start a petition to encourage Brian and Conrad to, like, marry each other or something. They are birds of a feather...

Mel


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## KreenysMac (Aug 23, 2005)

Oy ... after reading all the BM talk, I feel like I should wash my brain out. BM == bowel movement ... priceless. I know lpmackenna has their own ideas/theories, but after reading enough of both sides (used to be true blue, now I can't stand the "new" conservatives) I'm convinced the ONLY true documentation of what/who BM truly is can only be found in the book "On the Take" by Stevie Cameron (check it out on Amazon.ca). My final opinion after being served BM on a regular basis ... the guy was a REAL SMART LAYWER. I mean, he got away with crap I can't even dream about ... Crétien and Martin were just not smart enough to get away with the things that they did because post-BM we (as a collective) smartened up and closed some of the loop-holes and put more checks and balances in. I bet BM did a lot more than we even can begin to give him credit for -- that is, how much of our money he, and his "princess" of a wife, took.

Oy ... I just don't wanna think about it anymore ... but I shan't forget about him anytime soon. In fact, I remember when he left (after destroying the conservatives) and reading an article about all the stuff him and his wife did at my family's hobby farm -- my brother and I cut their picture out of the newspaper and tacked it to the side of a piece of plywood ... and then proceeded to practice our aim with the 22' using the new "bulls-eye" ... hee hee hee.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

I think Mulroney is a seperatist and always was one.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

KreenysMac said:


> that is, how much of our money he, and his "princess" of a wife, took.


KreenysMac, don't get us going on Princess Mila! My gawd, it just struck me...Mila and Barbara, Brian and Conrad...talk about a foursome...!



> In fact, I remember when he left (after destroying the conservatives) and reading an article about all the stuff him and his wife did at my family's hobby farm -- my brother and I cut their picture out of the newspaper and tacked it to the side of a piece of plywood ... and then proceeded to practice our aim with the 22' using the new "bulls-eye" ... hee hee hee.


Could you please elucidate on this event at the family hobby farm please? Enquiring minds want to know...

Mel


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## KreenysMac (Aug 23, 2005)

Well, the hobby farm is about 10 kms from the US/Canada border in southeastern Manitoba, near the town of Vita. Mostly we rent land for hay nowadays, and the main farm house needs a lot of work, but the soil is great for potatoes and cucumbers -- if the deer don't get them first. My brother now like to go out there with his friends and hunt for deer (I like venicin, deer meat, and so does the rest of my family, it's a cheap way to avoid the high cost of beef). There's no animals, we just don't have the time to be out there to tend to them.

As for the BM/MM bulls-eye incident -- that was a real lark. My brother wasn't much more than 10 at the time, he couldn't understand how Mila could just spend the government's money without a reason or asking permission ... bless his heart, kids do see things a bit clearer don't they? Oh, and if you're wondering, we were supervised by my father the entire time, I think he enjoyed watching their faces get blown to smitherines as much as my brother and I did.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

I would have like to have taken a shot myself...

Mel


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Melonie said:


> MACSPECTRUM, your mind works in mysterious ways...and I love it!
> 
> No soup? Then it's two BM's for you! (Ben and Brian, travelling blissfully down the colon of public opinion, without a care, not realizing that when they are flushed from our collective memories, few will really care).
> 
> ...


after being subjected to those 2 BMs Canada needs a national enema


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

nxnw said:


> That is the test for conviction under criminal law. It is not a test of whether or not something is true.


He defeated the charges, he sued the government, and they settled for $2 million. And the government of Canada apologized. What more could be done to prove himself in the public eye? What do you need, the voice of God or something?



nxnw said:


> Trudeau was a great leader. He had a real, great and sincere vision for this country. Whatever his flaws may have been, his focus throughout his career was to make Canada better, and that's what he did. HIS life's work was for Canada to have its own constitution and a Charter of Rights, and for Canada to be a "just society".


Not quite. Trudeau almost left politics in 1979; if it wasn't for the floundering Clark government, he would have. He returned to power and only then established his legacy. If Joe Clark hadn't screwed up, Trudeau's legacy would have been little or nothing. Trudeau's important contributions followed Clark's short-living government.



nxnw said:


> These were great things, done for us and not for Trudeau's own interests. The revisionist argument that this created some kind of constitutional mess is a lie perpetrated by separatists and by Mulroney himself.


Trudeau patriated the constitution without the approval of Quebec. That is a constitutional problem in and of itself.



nxnw said:


> The Charter is a great thing, defining an important part of what it means to be Canadian.


Here here.



nxnw said:


> As for patriating the Constitution, it was previously a simple statute of the British parliament. Now it is the supreme law of Canada, our OWN constitution. Before it was patriated, there was no amending formula, and the federal government legally had the right to ask the British parliament to amend it without the consent of any province. In fact, although it would have been contrary to convention, the British Parliament could have amended our constitution without even asking us. Another country had legal control pover our supreme law.


Some corrections. It was always the supreme law. "Convention" is a very important concept in our common-law system. De jure, the Brit parliament had power, de facto it did not. Just as today, the Queen has only de jure power in Canada. 



nxnw said:


> So, how exactly has Quebec been wronged? What "mess" did Trudeau make? Indeed, all of the other premiers confirm that Levesque had agreed privately to the Charter and patriation, and then backed out.


Gee, must be true, then.



nxnw said:


> Trudeau gave us a palace and Mulroney vandalized it. With bastards like Mulroney spreading lies about the patriation to suit is own personal agenda - behaviour ABSOLUTELY repugnant to his most vital duties to Canada - the separatists had their greatest ally.


If Manitoba and Newfoundland hadn't screwed Meech Lake, the separatists would have been de-fanged. If Manning and Trudeau hadn't screwed the Charlettetown Accord, the separatists would have been de-fanged. Mulroney was no ally of the separatists. In fact, he was as capable of controlling the separatists as Trudeau was incapable.



nxnw said:


> Mulroney's life's work was pure self interest. He wanted to be a father of our constitution, just like Trudeau. The tapes make this all the more clear that he was slobberingly desperate to make his mark, and did so at the expense of the country's good.


It is a typical tactic in propaganda to ascribe "selflessness" to those you admire and "selfishness" to those you abhor.



nxnw said:


> A lesser but also important issue is where he went after he left politics, and why. When he was not busy defacing our constitution and inflaming divisions in the country, he spent his time kissing up to multinational corporations (extending drug patents, for instance) to pave his way for the fabulous wealth he has since achieved from board positions on an obscene number of these companies.


And where would you have him go? Running a homeless shelter? Canoeing in the mountains? Joining a monastery, perhaps? Need I remind you that both Martin and Chretien are millionaire businessmen as well? Trudeau, on the other hand, was lucky enough to be born wealthy.

"Inflaming divisions in the country?" Do you have any clue how Trudeau spoke of Quebec or western Canada?



nxnw said:


> He was a terrible, petty, small minded and self interested prime minister. And all of this, so you know, is why so many Canadians hate him.


Mulroney ended his political life by implementing the GST. No statesman's reputation has ever survived instituting a value added tax. That, and only that, is why many hate him. (Many dislike his policies on free trade or abortion, but Chretien and Martin hold similar views without any hatred.)

Mulroney and Trudeau were both good leaders for Canada, but for different reasons. Trudeau brought about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and made a place for Canada in the world stage during peacetime. Mulroney demonstrated a balanced conservatism, good foreign policy, a defiance for unreasonable demands (Reformers, separatists), and he had a plan to stitch divisions in the process.

Let me emphasize this: Mulroney wanted to solve western alienation and Quebec separatism without capitulating to ultraconservatives and separatists. He tried twice. Trudeau's interference each time contributed to the defeat. Trudeau's plan? Flipping the bird.

They had common faults, too. The deficit and debt. The arrogance typical of Upper/Lower Canada. Lavish, pampered lifestyles.

Good PMs, both. But I'm still waiting for greatness. I don't see any likely candidates, either.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

KreenysMac said:


> I know lpmackenna has their own ideas/theories, but after reading enough of both sides (used to be true blue, now I can't stand the "new" conservatives) I'm convinced the ONLY true documentation of what/who BM truly is can only be found in the book "On the Take" by Stevie Cameron


Unfortunately, Cameron's reputation has been marred by her own conduct. I won't slander her, as I don't know much about her, but here are two opposiing views of her involvement in the Airbus affair:

Andrew Coyne 
Stevie Cameron herself


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> ...Trudeau almost left politics in 1979; if it wasn't for the floundering Clark government, he would have. He returned to power and only then established his legacy. If Joe Clark hadn't screwed up, Trudeau's legacy would have been little or nothing. Trudeau's important contributions followed Clark's short-living government.


1. So what?
2. While it took until 1993 to achieve it, it was high on his agenda from the beginning. See "Victoria Charter"



lpkmckenna said:


> Trudeau patriated the constitution without the approval of Quebec. That is a constitutional problem in and of itself.


So the style is more important than the substance? Quebeckers now embrace the Charter, and even its separatist governments no longer used the "notwithstanding" clause to override it, although they had the power to. Yet, the Charter was Lesvesque's premise for withdrawing Quebec's agreement. 

Quebec had neither the legal or moral right to stifle patriation, and it has never had an honest, genuine ground to object to it. It's just a phoney, dishonest axe to grind, used by phoney, dishonest people like Mulroney.



lpkmckenna said:


> Gee, must be true, then.


 I believe that there was at least one honest man among them. In fact, there were several premiers at the time, like Davis, Blakeney and Romanow (maybe Romanow was the deputy AG at the time), who deserve to be held in high regard as honest, dedicated public servants who deserve better than your glib and insulting comment.



lpkmckenna said:


> If Manitoba and Newfoundland hadn't screwed Meech Lake, the separatists would have been de-fanged. If Manning and Trudeau hadn't screwed the Charlettetown Accord, the separatists would have been de-fanged.


Have some regard for people who may be drinking coffee or something while reading these posts. I think you might be obliged to replace any keyboards that may have been spit on as a result of that last comment.

Also, Canadians voted against the Charlottetown accord. I guess we agreed with Trudeau and not Mulroney.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

nxnw said:


> Yet, the Charter was Lesvesque's premise for withdrawing Quebec's agreement.


Either you're being deliberately deceptive (I hope not) or you simply don't know what you are talking about.

It wasn't the Charter itself (which he supported), but the addition of the heinous "non-withstanding clause" that Levesque hated, and the removal of the "opt-out clause." And the fact that the "n-wc" was brokered in deliberately without his knowledge.


nxnw said:


> Quebec had neither the legal or moral right to stifle patriation, and it has never had an honest, genuine ground to object to it. It's just a phoney, dishonest axe to grind, used by phoney, dishonest people like Mulroney.


They didn't claim they did. In fact, the Supreme Court of Canada told them that. But since Trudeau was involving the Premiers in the process, the Quebec Premeir expected to be treated as an equal.

This is not an official source by any means, but I think casts doubt on what you say: Night of the Long Knives 
Making a deal, and then altering the deal in secret, is not the mark of an honest man.


nxnw said:


> I believe that there was at least one honest man among them. In fact, there were several premiers at the time, like Davis, Blakeney and Romanow (maybe Romanow was the deputy AG at the time), who deserve to be held in high regard as honest, dedicated public servants who deserve better than your glib and insulting comment.


Romanow was in on the backroom deal.


nxnw said:


> Also, Canadians voted against the Charlottetown accord. I guess we agreed with Trudeau and not Mulroney.


They did? Gee, I didn't know that!  And again, you have left out details: some Canadians agreed because of Manning, not Trudeau.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

Well, re: Levesque's conduct of the negotiations, this is what Trudeau says happened (which he backs up with quotes from participants in contemporary newspaper reports:


> The "night" in question is, of course, that of the so-called "long knives," a label shamelessly borrowed from Nazi history by separatists suffering from acute paranoia. What really happened?
> 
> When Rene Levesque betrayed his allies of the Gang of Eight by accepting my referendum proposal, he lost his credibility with them. The seven English-speaking premiers were in disarray and the session was adjourned to the following day, Nov. 5.
> 
> ...


As for knowing what we are talking about, this is the germane part of the resolution passed by the National Assembly, a few weeks after the "night of the long knives", rejecting (among other things) the minority language rights and mobility rights contained in the charter:


> 3. Given that a Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms is already operative in Québec, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to be entrenched in the Canadian Constitution must limit itself to:
> (a) democratic rights;
> (b) use of French and English in federal government institutions and services;
> (c) equality between men and women provided the National Assembly retains the power to legislate in matters under its jurisdiction;
> ...


And Levesque hated the notwithstanding clause so much, he was the first to use it. (heavy sarcasm)


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

OK, I have double checked the history of the notwithstanding clause. Other than Levesque, it was used once by Bourassa and once by Saskatchewan. Bourassa used it to override a Supreme Court decision and Sask used it preemptively in a situation where the SCC ultimately decided that the subject law did not violate the Charter:


> The Saskatchewan government invoked the clause as a preventive measure in a mid-1980s labour dispute with provincial government workers. The Supreme Court later ruled that the law didn't violate the Charter, so the notwithstanding clause didn't need to be invoked.
> 
> The Parti Québécois government in Quebec chose to object to the new Constitution's terms by including a notwithstanding clause in every piece of legislation it introduced from 1982 to 1985. But this was a political protest, not aimed at protecting a specific law from a Charter challenge.
> 
> ...


The above is from the CBC web site.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

nxnw said:


> The above is from the CBC web site.


Ahem, from that bastion of unfettered Liberal thinking?


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

SINC said:


> Ahem, from that bastion of unfettered Liberal thinking?


Do you really think the CBC is incorrect about how many times the notwithstanding clause has been used? 

The CBC can be criticised for many things, but a reasonable person shouldn't take issue with a fact that is not in serious controversy, just because he doesn't like the political leaning of the source.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

*Stephen Lewis defends Mulroney*

Stephen Lewis has come to the defence of Brian Mulroney. CBC news story 

His comparisons include Mulroney's opposition to apartheid was superior to Trudeau's thumb-twiddling, and the Mulroney gov't gave .5% GDP to foreign aid as opposed to .32 for Martin.

I also read the Maclean's article on the Mulroney book. Nothing he said was unusual. I don't know what the fuss was about.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

Reliable sources also state that he had a lovely singing voice and he was a hell of a dresser.


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2002)

And with his anger over the new book I guess that makes him a "cross" dresser now. 

It could make for an interesting cover on the premier issue of efrank.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

nxnw said:


> Reliable sources also state that he had a lovely singing voice and he was a hell of a dresser.


Which reliable source do you doubt: the CBC, Macleans, or Stephen Lewis?


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

nxnw said:


> Well, re: Levesque's conduct of the negotiations, this is what Trudeau says happened (which he backs up with quotes from participants in contemporary newspaper reports:
> 
> As for knowing what we are talking about, this is the germane part of the resolution passed by the National Assembly, a few weeks after the "night of the long knives", rejecting (among other things) the minority language rights and mobility rights contained in the charter:
> 
> And Levesque hated the notwithstanding clause so much, he was the first to use it. (heavy sarcasm)


Where are these quotes from?


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> Which reliable source do you doubt: the CBC, Macleans, or Stephen Lewis?


You misunderstand. I don't question that he has lovely singing voice and he was a hell of a dancer.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

nxnw said:


> I don't question that he has lovely singing voice


I don't recall his duet with Ronnie burning up the charts....


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> Where are these quotes from?


The excerpt from the resolution of the National Assembly is from the resolution of the National Assembly. (Dec 1., 1982, just after the deal).

The quote from Trudeau is from an article he wrote.


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## DEWLine (Sep 24, 2005)

Why _else_ did Trudeau ensure the Charter's existence?

I'd be willing to bet _he_ considered the War Measures Act thing one of his greatest mistakes to his deathbed.


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## DEWLine (Sep 24, 2005)

nxnw said:


> Trudeau was a visionary (albeit, with warts) and Mulroney is a fool.
> 
> (details deleted for brevity)
> 
> He was not even a good PM. He is, in my view, a candidate for the worst, most pernicious PM we have ever had.


Certainly the worst since "Iron Heel" Bennett in my POV.


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