# Loblaws policies...



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I was shopping at a Toronto area Loblaws yesterday. Around closing time they often mark the items in the deli area to half price. I often bring home some of the half-price roast chickens to freeze and supplement my dog's dinner. 

Yesterday I asked why they hadn't marked down the chickens as usual. The answer:

"We don't mark them down any more, sir. We cook them into our chicken pot pies now--they're so yummy!" 

Some of those chickens had been sitting under the hot light for almost five hours. The idea of storing them overnight, then heating them again to save $10 or $15 on a stack of poultry seemed like a really bizarre policy. 

Meanwhile, I wanted to buy a bread and noticed, a few feet away, that Loblaws employees were throwing them into huge clear plastic bags. I was told that if I wanted one, I could fish one out of the trash bag myself. I assumed they were headed for Second Harvest or a similar food bank. Nope, these bags were going into the garbage. They were so eager to get them into the trash that they were doing this 45 minutes before closing time.

I've seen the bread going into the trash at a number of Loblaws stores, although the chicken pot pie policy seems unique to the one outlet.

They're getting a letter from me on both these policies.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

The modern solution to all of this is to surreptitiously viddy all of this sorry behaviour, then post it to youtube or FB and hope it goes viral. Then watch BlahBlahs rush to do some 'splainin.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> The modern solution to all of this is to surreptitiously viddy all of this sorry behaviour, then post it to youtube or FB and hope it goes viral. Then watch BlahBlahs rush to do some 'splainin.


Just take in my Secret Sam briefcase and (no wait, it's 2010, not 1967). If I can get someone to eat the chicken pot pie, I will record video of them getting sick!

Seriously, I might do that with the bread. In every case I've seen the giant bags of bread, I've asked them if they're going to a food bank, and am always told they're being trashed. That's what I 'd need to capture. Thanks for the push.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Macfury said:


> Just take in my Secret Sam briefcase and (no wait, it's 2010, not 1967). If I can get someone to eat the chicken pot pie, I will record video of them getting sick!
> 
> Seriously, I might do that with the bread. In every case I've seen the giant bags of bread, I've asked them if they're going to a food bank, and am always told they're being trashed. That's what I 'd need to capture. Thanks for the push.


Yes I have a neighbour that dumpster dives and finds everything he needs to feed his chickens without paying a dime. 

It took myself and several others well over a year to persuade our local Sobey's to set up a points card so that customers could give club points could go to the local food bank.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

That policy likely affects many other grocery stores as well other than LoBlaws if I had to guess - the throwing out of perfectly good food.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Lars said:


> That policy likely affects many other grocery stores as well other than LoBlaws if I had to guess - the throwing out of perfectly good food.


I suspect it does. But Loblaws does it in full view. While I can understand a reluctance to try to deliver 16 ounces of potato salad to a food bank, it would appear--at least on the surface--that delivering big sacks of bread would be a fairly easy proposition.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

To be honest, most food banks don't take stale bread anymore. They refuse it. I know from first hand experience.

I don't see the issue with making the chicken pot pies either?

EDIT: Full disclosure here. I was a Loblaws employee for 15 years (albeit only in non-food departments) and my family members hold a wide variety of positions within the company (from Store Managers, District Managers, Regional Vice Presidents, to part-time staff)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Perhaps you're right--perhaps the food banks won't take bread. The bread is still fresh though. It was being sold out of the bags to anyone who needed bread.

The problem with the chicken pot pies are that they are kept warm--not hot--for 5 or 6 hours before they are saved overnight, then cooked into a pie. By most standards I have read, chicken should be refrigerated within two hours of cooking. Turning it into a pot pie after 5 hours of warm storage seems like a stretch.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Perhaps you're right--perhaps the food banks won't take bread. The bread is still fresh though. It was being sold out of the bags to anyone who needed bread.
> 
> The problem with the chicken pot pies are that they are kept warm--not hot--for 5 or 6 hours before they are saved overnight, then cooked into a pie.


From my experience in the stores, the HMR department (where you would get your chickens) must do temperature checks ever half hour. These logs are then faxed every Monday to their Department Specialist, and scoured over for any discrepancies. Also, the Loss Prevention departments do spot checks on temperature logs in HMR (and any department where holding temperatures must be maintained) to make sure they are being recorded accurately. 

From my knowledge, certain temperatures must be held in order for the product to maintain its integrity. Those chickens are refrigerated immediately after store closing at an even temperature.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

titans88 said:


> From my experience in the stores, the HMR department (where you would get your chickens) must do temperature checks ever half hour. These logs are then faxed every Monday to their Department Specialist, and scoured over for any discrepancies. Also, the Loss Prevention departments do spot checks on temperature logs in HMR (and any department where holding temperatures must be maintained) to make sure they are being recorded accurately.


At 9:00 p.m., the labels on the chickens showed that some of them had been out of the oven since 4:30. Any home safety info I've seen says that chicken should be refrigerated within two hours of cooking. How is this different? The chickens are coming out of the hot lights warm, but not at 180 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm not being challenging, just curious to know.


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Well as far as the pot pies go, as long as they are cooked to the proper temp. to kill any bacteria, they're not going to make anyone sick (although they may taste like crap).

I work in a Kraft warehouse and you would crap yourself if you saw how many trailers (yes, 48 or 53 foot trailers) go to the dump every single month of product that has or is going to expire. We do also donate a lot of product, but it has to be between 40 and 30 days before expiry.

Also, how about Tim Hortons. Have you ever seen them when they change stuff over around 2:30am in the morning. They bring over a large garbage can and start throwing everything into it, all destined for the garbage bin in the back.

How about all the crop that the farmers grow that they can't sell? But if they don't grow it, they won't get paid all the subsides from the government. I remember a whole thing in Mclean's that mentions this waste. One of the things that I remember is that for every salad served in England, two more worth's went into the garbage.

It's disgusting, and you've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Check out Food, inc for a real eye opener.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

Macfury said:


> At 9:00 p.m., the labels on the chickens showed that some of them had been out of the oven since 4:30. Any home safety info I've seen says that chicken should be refrigerated within two hours of cooking. How is this different? The chickens are coming out of the hot lights warm, but not at 180 degrees Fahrenheit. I'm not being challenging, just curious to know.


It is different because you are no longer cooking them! You are holding them at a temperature. Once the store is closed, you are not going to continue to hold them at that temperature, you cool them instantly. The chicken (or any meat/poultry) needs to cooled rapidly and at an even temperature for it to stay fresh. When I worked, they would make a variety of sandwiches and wraps with the leftover chicken.

Let's put some thought into this. Most food retailers (like Metro, Sobeys, Farm Boy, Loblaws) all sell cooked chickens, and they all use the leftovers. They all follow the same guidelines for keeping the food safe. No one wants to sell potentially harmful food in order to make a couple bucks. If this process was as dangerous/unhealthy as I think you are implying, thousands of people would be getting sick everyday! We all know they are not.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

imnothng said:


> Well as far as the pot pies go, as long as they are cooked to the proper temp. to kill any bacteria, they're not going to make anyone sick (although they may taste like crap).
> 
> I work in a Kraft warehouse and you would crap yourself if you saw how many trailers (yes, 48 or 53 foot trailers) go to the dump every single month of product that has or is going to expire. We do also donate a lot of product, but it has to be between 40 and 30 days before expiry.
> 
> ...


It is important to note that it is not as if everyone wants to let this product go to waste. It would be great if there was a way it could be used by someone in need. The problem is liability! If any of the companies mentioned above were to donate food that was close to expiration, just so someone could use it, there is a possibility someone could get sick!

Imagine the headline, "Tim Hortons/Loblaws/Kraft Donates Old Bread, Hundreds Of Homeless Now Sick"

Year ago I worked an overnight shift for our store to prepare for Christmas. I was setting up displays and such. On break around 4 am, we wandered over to Tims for a coffee and whatever food we could get. The gentleman was unable to sell us any of the food he was taking off the racks, nor was he able to sell us any of the food on the cooling racks, as that was reserved for 5am. We were annoyed we couldn't get anything, but understood, as we were all well aware of the proper Food Safety, Handling, and Preparation laws.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

titans88 said:


> Let's put some thought into this. Most food retailers (like Metro, Sobeys, Farm Boy, Loblaws) all sell cooked chickens, and they all use the leftovers. They all follow the same guidelines for keeping the food safe. No one wants to sell potentially harmful food in order to make a couple bucks. If this process was as dangerous/unhealthy as I think you are implying, thousands of people would be getting sick everyday! We all know they are not.


So how long can a cooked chicken be kept warm safely?


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

Macfury said:


> So how long can a cooked chicken be kept warm safely?


Gosh I don't remember that exactly. I'm sure that information is readily available at Canada's Food Safety website. Every retailer abides by those rules.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The best reference I could find was two hours, but this was a recommendation of a chicken processor.


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## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Macfury said:


> The best reference I could find was two hours, but this was a recommendation of a chicken processor.


Every reference I've ever seen is also two hours maximum.

I think your instincts are correct here; end of day chickens may be suitable for dog food, but not for repurposed for people food the next day.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I think once it's cooked---it's cooked. Unless you leave it out without refrigeration for a long time, you may contaminate the poultry due to bacteria that is already present in the bird.

Many people eat left over turkey for days after Thanksgiving or Christmas without ill effects, don't they?

More than 10 years ago, I used to be a manager at a grocery distribution centre where we only handled meat and produce. If you think stores throw out a lot, you should see what a 200,000 sqf DC throws out. 

Depending on the product, it all had a "sell-by" date. Meaning the date it has to leave the warehouse and be on the store shelves by. If it was still in the whse, we had to get rid of it. Some of it we gave to a mission (not a food bank) which would use it within a day or so, but if the buyers over bought, than huge quantities of still good product were destroyed.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

kps said:


> I think once it's cooked---it's cooked. Unless you leave it out without refrigeration for a long time, you may contaminate the poultry due to bacteria that is already present in the bird.
> 
> Many people eat left over turkey for days after Thanksgiving or Christmas without ill effects, don't they?


Right, but it goes into the refrigerator relatively quickly around here. I'm also allowing it to cool to room temp, instead of gently warming it for the next five hours.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Personally, I wouldn't be keen on the chicken pie, but I don't think they would risk it if it wasn't an acceptable practice. Remember the class action law suit a few years ago for Hep b contamination? I got a whole $100 or so from Loblaws over that deal as I shopped at that store and had to go for my shots. LOL


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

kps said:


> Personally, I wouldn't be keen on the chicken pie, but I don't think they would risk it if it wasn't an acceptable practice. Remember the class action law suit a few years ago for Hep b contamination? I got a whole $100 or so from Loblaws over that deal as I shopped at that store and had to go for my shots. LOL


This is what I am getting at. Loblaws, or any food retailer for that matter, has nothing to gain by trying to save a few chickens everyday. They wouldn't reuse the leftovers if it wasn't safe to sell a few sandwiches or wraps for $3 the next day. There's waaaay too much at risk.


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## Manatus (May 11, 2009)

I'm tempted to test this, I like chicken pot pies.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

I'd bawk bauk balk at those pies Manatus.


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## Manatus (May 11, 2009)

Just as an aside, I find it interesting that we as a society are infinitely more trusting of food that comes frozen and wrapped in layers of plastic and cardboard and pretty much looks nothing like actual food, than we are of something baked and actually hand made in a deli (albeit one with some potentially dubious practices). Then again, I find the Kraft Dinner sauce mix frightening.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Manatus said:


> Just as an aside, I find it interesting that we as a society are infinitely more trusting of food that comes frozen and wrapped in layers of plastic and cardboard and pretty much looks nothing like actual food, than we are of something baked and actually hand made in a deli (albeit one with some potentially dubious practices). Then again, I find the Kraft Dinner sauce mix frightening.


What can possibly be scary about fluorescent orange powder? 

Which ones are smarter, the sellers or buyers?


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Warm food should be kept above 60C (140F).
Cool food should be kept below 4C (40F).
Some foods can be stored at room temperature, of course, but if you cooked it or prepared it, or if it's perishable, the usual advice is it should be discarded if it's stored between those two temperatures for two hours or more.

"Best Before" dates: They refer to the best time for storage in an unopened container (properly refrigerated, if necessary). The moment you open a container, the "best before" date essentially becomes today; the product will spoil at whatever rate it usually does.

From that you can see that throwing opened food out based on the "best before" date isn't a very useful exercise; you could easily be discarding food either too early or too late. If it lasts five days, it lasts five days after you open it. If you open it near to but before the "best before" date, it can go those five days (or whatever), even if that ends up being beyond that "best before" date before it should be discarded. If you open it after the "best before" date, some spoilage may have occurred, but it still may be OK for a day or two.

Or, alternately, if you open it two weeks before the "best before" date, but it is only good for five days, then you should discard it five days after you open it, even if the "best before" date is in the future.

So, you do need to know what the safe storage period is for any food.

I keep my 'fridge on the cool side, around 2C (35F), but it takes a bit of trial and error to find the coolest temp setting you can use because every fridge is different. Door = warmest, back of fridge = coolest.

Also, if you've never tried them, check out "Green Bags" for produce. I usually remove produce from the store bags as soon as I'm home from the grocery store, to allow the natural dehydration of fridges to take the moisture off (that store produce sections spray incessantly) and then a day or so later into the green bag it goes. Paper bags also work great at removing excess moisture, but the green bags preserve better.

You don't have to buy them from the link, it's just there as an example. I get mine from Dollarama ... much cheaper. They work by counteracting the ethylene gas food produces. They're reusable, I find at least 6 times.

You can also get "pucks" that do the same thing and should last longer, but I haven't tried them.

Not every product needs ethylene control, but this chart helps to figure which produce can benefit.

Hot tip about tomatoes; never store them in the fridge. Use a green bag at room temp (or no bag, but eat them sooner). Even a few minutes in a fridge will kill the flavour of tomatoes.

KC4:
Love the "smart ones" photo. Apparently the calorie count on the nutritional label can be off by something like 20% and meet FDA regulations (which are basically adopted unchanged here in Canada regarding the labels).

Bonus Points Awarded: Guess which side of 20% the nutritional label is likely to be "off"?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

gordguide: Lately, I have been carefully perusing the calorie charts on the few foods I still let myself get away with. The other day I had a hankering for some "light ream cheese" product form an enviro-dairy. The little plastic pot came in at 720 calories and was left on the store shelf. The biggest sticker shock was for a small baguette, which came in at about 100 calories per inch with nothing on it. Oatmeal-raisin cookie? A mere 170 calories per biscuit. If I added 20 per cent to that....ouch!


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## Chimpur (May 1, 2009)

i think no mater where you shop they will have similar practices. I remember when i worked at a local Walmart; we had to do temperature checks of all the fridges, freezers and cool display selves. We also had strict policies on how to clean up the back fridge and the sink/counter where the produce was prepared. I should mention that i worked in produce. 

Every night we would have spoilage, be it fruit or veggies. One thing i would suggest is watching store staff and see if the rotate the product properly. A lot of times I'd come in and find clementines that were rotten near the bottom of the stack because the guy before me was to lazy to put the older ones on top and the newer ones at the bottom, same with apples and bananas. 

I'm not entirely sure on what they did in other departments with bread, baked good, hot foots etc. But i do remember once a door or something was once left open and a lot of dairy product were ruined.

I don't think its fair to place blame on one person. i mean the store has policies that are there to prevent them from being sued, protect employees and to protect the consumer. i mean what interest would a store have in directly angering the customer? They need the customer to buy stuff to make a profit.

Thats my rant, hope you all gleaned something from it.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

FWIW there are two versions of the Green Bags. The packaging is almost identical. One is made in USA these are expensive, we use them and they seem to work pretty much as advertised. The others are made in China, the packaging print was copied and modified slightly to include; "Made in China" and remove; "Debbie Mayer". The Chinese bags are visibly different. We did not try them given that republics tendency to use lead and other poisons in the manufacturing process.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Loblaws policies summarized:
> 
> 1) Profit from selling food.
> 
> 2) Avoid getting sued for selling food outside of regulations


I think that would apply to any retailer would it not?


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