# Ford for the 21st Century...new realities



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Here's a guy that gets it....and did 3 years ago ......30% salary cuts for senior management and focus focus focus on quality, core biz and what people are looking for....and no bail out..



> *How Ford dodged a bailout, so far*
> 
> Mar 01, 2009
> 
> ...


good read and my 40% smaller economy shows up :mrgreen: 

snip


> Mulally and other experts, who keep ratcheting down expectations for this year, now forecast North American sales volume as l*ow as 10 million vehicle sales this year, down from the lofty 16 million* or so units sold annually earlier this decade.


and it's working....even in this horror of an economy...



> Indeed, in last year's fourth quarter, Ford, Toyota and Honda were alone among the top six automakers in increasing their market share. In Canada, Ford took back 1.8 points of market share in January, while GM and Chrysler continued to lose share.* And in the past three months, Ford has outsold Toyota in Canada.*
> 
> Automakers talk of their "conquest rate," the portion of their new-car sales in which a buyer's trade-in is from another manufacturer. In January, 45 per cent of Ford buyers were converts, up from 38 per cent in August.
> 
> The quality improvements Mulally sought have paid off.* Consumer Reports noted this month that of the eight new Detroit vehicles it recommends, six are Fords*.


Bright boy out of Boeing..... :clap:

Good read..... some good news for once.....so far..

Wheels.ca - How Ford dodged a bailout, so far - Canada's Most Trusted Auto Resource


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

For a second I thought this said "Food for the 21st Century."


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I like to see that GM has resorted to Gooogle Ads... ahahah :lmao:


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Adrian. said:


> I like to see that GM has resorted to Gooogle Ads... ahahah :lmao:


Resorted? More like getting with the times!


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Good article Doc, thanks for posting!

As an aside, I got a kick out of this line from the article:


> Outsider turnaround CEOs are over-rated. The now-bankrupt Nortel Networks Corp. is a sad example of that.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
Nortel had a completely different affliction - the debris left over from gutting Northern Telecom. I can not understand how Nortel managed to make it this far, as they do not make anything, having sold off all of those assets years ago. If you don't make something, you can't score cash in manufacturing. They had all of this "networking" stuff, which was all hype because I have never seen a network product that they made. At least I can see Fords out on the road, and many of them are reliable because the garages mostly have GM and Chrylser poop lined up outside...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I like the new Ford ads - very aggressive - focused on quality and hammering directly at Honda and Toyota...no wimpy "it's a recession" ad.....this a company out for marketshare. :clap:

I am tempted by a Flex for no good reason other than I'm in the mood for a new vehicle and it gets better mileage.....

I won't tho......for a while......

Me thinks a test drive is coming.......

anyone have a new Taurus or Flex ...damn Flex mileage is good - wonder if it holds up in real world.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> I like the new Ford ads - very aggressive - focused on quality and hammering directly at Honda and Toyota...no wimpy "it's a recession" ad.....this a company out for marketshare. :clap:
> 
> I am tempted by a Flex for no good reason other than I'm in the mood for a new vehicle and it gets better mileage.....
> 
> ...


I do believe the Flex designers were looking to take on the Honda Tupperware box for the ugly vehicle silver medal. Aztec still wins the gold by a huge margin.beejacon

Course we won't really know about quality till these things are 10 years old.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> I am tempted by a Flex for no good reason other than I'm in the mood for a new vehicle and it gets better mileage.....
> 
> I won't tho......for a while......
> 
> ...


may not be such a bad time to buy. There are some killer deals out there...a coworker was telling me he heard a Peterborough dealer ad where if you buy a van, they'll throw in a sub compact for free.

Desperate times call for desperate action, I guess.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

eMacMan said:


> Aztec still wins the gold by a huge margin.beejacon


As a happy, original owner of a _nine_ year old yellow Aztek, I have to correct your spelling of my choice crossover SUV. tptptptp


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Bjornbro said:


> As a happy, original owner of a _nine_ year old yellow Aztek, I have to correct your spelling of my choice crossover SUV. tptptptp


You can fix the spelling but not the looks.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ugly is IN since the Prius.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

kps said:


> may not be such a bad time to buy. There are some killer deals out there...a coworker was telling me he heard a Peterborough dealer ad where if you buy a van, they'll throw in a sub compact for free.
> 
> Desperate times call for desperate action, I guess.


The math on those deals doesn't work, Oakville Hyundai had a similar deal going a couple of months ago for a free subcompact if you bought a Entourage mini van for the full MSRP. With the price of the van at full MSRP plus you still had to pay all the taxes on the sub compact car by the time you're all said and done it would have been better to buy both cars separately and worked out 2 separate cash deals for the cars.

Laterz


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

K_OS said:


> The math on those deals doesn't work, Oakville Hyundai had a similar deal going a couple of months ago for a free subcompact if you bought a Entourage mini van for the full MSRP. With the price of the van at full MSRP plus you still had to pay all the taxes on the sub compact car by the time you're all said and done it would have been better to buy both cars separately and worked out 2 separate cash deals for the cars.
> 
> Laterz


Yeah, if it sounds too good to be true and all that. I hear ya.

But still, many dealers are desperate and so are the manufacturers. Lots of bargoons to be had if you're buying. I'm seriously considering a new pickup. The itch is strooong.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I hear you with the itch. I called Stricklands and said when Flex shows up call me. I bought my Freestar from them ( highly recommended for anyone in the GTA )

Strickland Automart

If I can get a trade in and keep monthly finance costs around $400 ( currently $350 ) the gas savings will offset the extra finance cost.

So sort of effectively "putting in the order" - scratched the itch for now  

If he comes up with one right quick tho..........I'm figuring 6 months or so before they show.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The Flex is one seriously well build vehicle...innovative - incredible mileage an very very comfortable.

2009 Ford Flex Limited AWD Review - Character that can’t be Classified.


snip from above


> *Build*
> 
> This was without question one of the most impressive aspects of the Flex. *We can say with all confidence that it has been literally decades since we’ve seen a Ford built so well*



snip


> Although it shares the same drivetrain as the Ford Edge and the now seemingly pointless Taurus X, the Flex brings a level of refinement, quality, uniqueness and sticker price that the other two Ford products can’t even come close to matching. *In fact, the Flex brings a level of refinement and quality that many European manufacturers can’t match. Yes, you read that correctly. A Ford. It seems that at least in the case of the Flex, quality is finally Job *#1.


If GM goes....Ford soars....


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> The Flex is one seriously well build vehicle...innovative - incredible mileage an very very comfortable.


The Oakville plant had it's operations upgraded to be able to build cars for Lincoln's higher standards the beauty of this is that every other vehicle that comes out of that plant will also benefit from the higher standards. The Ford Flex along with the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX are built at Ford's Oakville plant.

Laterz


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Interesting article on Ford and even more interesting comments











CTV.ca | Ford not taking any handouts, but is it in the clear?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Based on the comments it looks like despite owning their debt they are winning the hearts and minds of the consumer (which should translate into profits).

We own two Fords, an Escort wagon and an Escort ZX2, the wagon is 10 years old and the ZX2 8 years old, both are still going strong and repair costs have always been reasonable combined with excellent reliability, especially the wagon. 

(I know there is a a Mazda partnership involved with the Escort, but hey, at least Ford was smart enough to do that.)


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah I've been mostly happy with the Windstars/Freestar I've owned. I find the dealership a bit too trigger happy on repairs tho.

I do hope Obama lets Ford Finance get some breathing room...seems the least they could do to level the playing playing field 

I note Ford is negotiating with CAW to level that aspect as well.

The one deal for all aspect is now coming back to bite CAW


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

I think that even if Ford is loosing some cash now - they are in a much better position when things make a turn around, especially when it comes to products and customer acceptance. I can not think of even one sector in which Ford is not miles ahead of GM.

In trucks, the F Series is going strong, and they can supply the market - while GM has closed truck plants and has rather banal offerings that are nothing when compared to Ford. While GMs truck engines are reliable, they are also retrograde, showing that building the same engine for 50 years is a double edged sword. When it comes to small trucks, Ford has a winner in the Ranger, which fits the market and takes advantage of years of Ford-Mazda cooperation. GM's offerings are sparse and not well advertised, and hence, they have a long way to go to attract customers - especially the ones that were scared off by the S-10s.

In cars, Ford has many modern product offerings that fit anyone's bill, with a range of modern engines that meet emissions standards, like LEVs and ULEVs. Products like the Focus are now well established, and bringing over the EuroSpec models will appeal to many people who want a sporty ride. GM has no plans to bring over anything except for some Chinese imports, and offers nothing that could be considered exciting that could be compared to the Focus. Now I have seen this Chevy Colonial around town a number of times now - it looks like some kind of road test car since it has sported different sets of body fairings, but I know little else about it, next to that it looks like a rebadged Corolla with fairings.

The Mustang is also being accepted to the large sports car set of moderate means, while GM is still not cranking out a Camaro / Trans Am / Firebird. Really, it's the same old with GM - they talk about making stuff people want, but it isn't available at the GM dealer near you - but Ford seems to have ample supplies to fill any such need. Besides that, Chrysler has their Charger / Challenger out for those that want a modern retro-ride, and they are available, no problems.

Their electric car program is also more promising, at least at the promotions side of it, since the units will be placed into the Focus platform, which has been entirely accepted by the public. The Volt, on the other hand, is little more than a commercial with lots of fine print, and may never be available. I guess the Ford may never be available - but it seems to me that plunking a Magna power plant into a Focus is an easier thing that designing and building a manufacturing infrastructure in which to build a completely new vehicle.

Ford has lots of goods available at dealerships, and really, they have managed to put it all together, especially with the reintroduction of the Taurus, which is a big seller for them. If they keep on top of their quality issues, then no problems, especially if they can avoid the disasters like the Freestar.


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## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

I like the fact that they are bringing some of the smaller cars from europe over.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Not sure what you base your "disaster" on regarding the Freestar but that's not my experience

2007 Ford Freestar Reviews, Expert Car Reviews on AOL Autos

It's a middle of road decent van with lots of power and very cheap on the used market.
I paid $12,999 for my Sport version with the big motor with 64k on it. Not a lot of toys to break either.
Piggy on gas tho.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

MacDoc said:


> Not sure what you base your "disaster" on regarding the Freestar but that's not my experience
> 
> 2007 Ford Freestar Reviews, Expert Car Reviews on AOL Autos
> 
> ...


My boss traded in a Windstar (which had a few transmission ailments over the years) for a new Freestar. It was a pretty bad lemon, all kinds of problems, and after two years, he sold it because he couldn't handle the unreliability. Even Ford acknowledged that the Freestar was problematic, and ceased production because of quality issues and a declining market. I had a few friends that had Freestars, and liked them, but soon moved on to other vehicles, especially when gas went to $1.40/L.

Now, those old Aerostars - looked like a DustBuster, but you simply couldn't kill those beasts. I used one as a service vehicle for years, then it was sold to the scrapman, who drove it until the thing was worth more for scrap metal than it was to repair - which was pretty amazing considering the amount of bodywork that had simply fallen off over the years. Rust never sleeps...


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Ford's future looks bright as they are bringing in the new Fiesta to NA, the new Fusion Hybrid is one of the best looking hybrids on the market today and it's specs are very competitive with other hybrids in its class, the Escape just got engine upgrades across all models, and they are still thinking about the sports enthusiast as they have just finished putting the final touches on a all new aluminum block direct injected 5.0L V8 for the Mustang, all that and then there are also the new turbo ecoboost engines that should be showing up on models starting this year.

Laterz


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I have to say that their efforts are really winning me back as a potential customer. They've certainly proven themselves able to "turn on a dime" faster than GM and Chrysler, but of course the proof will be in the pudding of these future vehicles.

As a current Ford driver, I love the vehicle I happen to have (which was given to us as a moving present) but was not previously considering them for the next vehicle. Now, perhaps ...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The payoff cometh....



> *Ford tops Canadian auto sales*
> 
> THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> Ford, the only U.S. automaker not supported by emergency government funding,led car sales in June 2008.
> ...


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Have never been interested in hybrids as there seems to always be some kind of shortcoming, however, the 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid, is truly catching my eye. 

CanadianDriver First Drives First Drive: 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

MACinist said:


> Have never been interested in hybrids as there seems to always be some kind of shortcoming, ...


Yeah, like ultra-ugly exterior -- and especially interior -- styling. Look at the Prius. _Shudder._ That car is "planet friendly" yet is a big enough of an eyesore to allow me to entirely forget about going green.

And what is with the obsession of having those obnoxiously enormous LCD's in the center dash in all hybrids? Wow. Ugly.

The design of so many hybrids make me cringe on the inside. 

_/rant._


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Rockin' along :clap:

Outgunning rivals AND profitable again....



> *Debt reduction pushes Ford to $2.3B 2Q profit*
> AP
> 
> DEARBORN, Mich. – Ford Motor Co.'s return to profitability last quarter won't last long unless it can boost sales of cars and trucks and continue to grab market share from rivals.


snip



> Still, Ford has managed to gain on its competitors, even as the auto sales slump pushed down revenue 30 percent to $27.2 billion. The Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands picked up two percentage points of market share to end the quarter at 16.4 percent. The automaker saw the smallest U.S. sales decline of any major automaker in June, down 14 percent from the same month last year.
> 
> Cars like the new Ford Fusion midsize sedan, with sales up 21 percent last month, helped keep the company's sales relatively healthy in a terrible market.
> 
> Also, the company's F-Series pickup trucks remain the best-selling vehicles in the country. While sales fell 11 percent in June, Ford still sold more than 102,000 of the profitable trucks from April to the end of June.


more
Debt reduction pushes Ford to $2.3B 2Q profit - Yahoo! News

I find it interesting that a sizeable portion favour Ford BECAUSE they took no gov money....


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Now if they can get the same concessions from the UAW that GM and Chrysler got they will be on the way to great things.

Laterz


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

K_OS said:


> Now if they can get the same concessions from the UAW that GM and Chrysler got they will be on the way to great things.


Why would Ford workers need to make "concessions"? All this round of concessions did was to promise that GM and Chrysler are going to be kneecapped down the road, once those companies make one cent of profit, and the workers demand their fair share.

What the companies need is to stop being fixated on pilfering from the workers, and concentrate on bringing out some modern products that can compete against all other makers, with high levels of quality, and with alternative fuel options. The workers didn't cripple GM and Chrysler - it was the reliance on obsolete, giant sized, fuel wasting V8 engines placed into low quality, badly designed vehicles that ruined them the moment gas went over $1.20 a litre; not to mention the endless numbers of executives that robbed the place blind as a reward for endless bad decisions that made their companies uncompetitive and bankrupt.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ford sent out a glossy flyer last week advertising a Fusion Hybrid at just under $22,000. I went to the local Ford dealership to have a look and they steered me toward the one in the showroom at $38,000. I told them no thanks and left. I am still on the hunt for a new, more reasonable priced hybrid for my wife and I to use around town.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

SINC said:


> Ford sent out a glossy flyer last week advertising a Fusion Hybrid at just under $22,000. I went to the local Ford dealership to have a look and they steered me toward the one in the showroom at $38,000. I told them no thanks and left. I am still on the hunt for a new, more reasonable priced hybrid for my wife and I to use around town.


Did you not press the matter? What was on offer for 22 grand? Sounds a good enough deal for a hybrid to make an effort - I've never met a car salesman who did not direct me to a more expensive model.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

chasMac said:


> Did you not press the matter? What was on offer for 22 grand? Sounds a good enough deal for a hybrid to make an effort - I've never met a car salesman who did not direct me to a more expensive model.


I asked but he hummed and hawed and said we might have one somewhere around here. That's when I told him to shove it. I had specifically asked to see the one for $21, 690. I will check with another Ford dealer.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

It will come without a steering wheel, seats, windows or tires - all will be "options". beejacon


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

EvanPitts said:


> It will come without a steering wheel, seats, windows or tires - all will be "options". beejacon


Sounds like a base-model VW.


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## Digital_Gary (Sep 18, 2003)

chasMac said:


> Sounds like a base-model VW.


exactly. They advertise the base model but the dealer never has them in stock.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Digital_Gary said:


> exactly. They advertise the base model but the dealer never has them in stock.


I know a guy that in the day, managed to buy a "base" Chevette Scooter. That thing was stripped, though he did buy the optional steering wheel and driver's seat. It had a wonderful cardboard interior that had the GM - Mark Of Excellence logo stamped all over it. The literature advertised "Over 50 options available", things like a glove compartment, passenger seat (or a pizza warming oven), gas gauge... Filling out the paperwork must have been a salesman's nightmare...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

*Ford posts first sales increase in two years*










_Washington's wildly successful cash-for-clunkers program credited for the auto maker's 1.6 per cent sales jump compared with the same month last year_

article

Ford posts first sales increase in two years - The Globe and Mail


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sadly, early figures are showing that many of these "clunkers" are North American cars.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

I'm not sure if it's even available here yet, or how/why someone was driving it (company test drive? media reviewer?), but while out getting groceries on the weekend I saw a new Ford Fiesta - wow, very sharp looking little vehicle. Nicely done. :clap:


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

The Canadian government had something similar, but it was only $200 to $300 I believe. I have a 2004 Toyota Echo which get 33mpg in the city, so my car would not qualify.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> The Canadian government had something similar, but it was only $200 to $300 I believe. I have a 2004 Toyota Echo which get 33mpg in the city, so my car would not qualify.


Never tried to break down to city and highway but my Echo consistently gets 37mpg (US) as a yearly average.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
In Canada, it is $300 maximum, and as critics said, that will pretty much take some winter beaters off the road, if the owner can't get $200 at a scrapyard for it.

The program in the US is a boon to Ford, not only because they may sell more cars, but because Ford made major investments into scrap yards and recycling - so they can make profit every time some Chrysler or GM falls apart on the road, even if the owner doesn't buy a Ford...


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Consumer Reports says Ford's Fusion Hybrid is equal to Toyota Camry, only sportier.

Consumer Reports says Ford's Fusion Hybrid is equal to Toyota Camry, only sportier — Autoblog



> "The new Fusions are very impressive especially the Hybrid," said David Champion, senior director of CR's Auto Test Center. "The Hybrid successfully blends excellent fuel economy with driving pleasure, something all other hybrids have failed to do. All have a comfortable ride, agile handling, and the innovative display on the Hybrid encourages frugal driving."


Laterz


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Nice line up - glad to see the Taurus back - a zoom zoom version too
Introducing The All-New 2010 Ford Taurus - Videos, Pictures, Specs & Pricing on the official site of the 2010 Ford Taurus

and the Transit in a hybrid mode should prove very popular...even with us maybe...

Subcompact Culture: The 2010 Ford Model Year Drive Event: Experiencing the latest from Ford Motor Company

transit


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

I'm surprised they kept the Taurus name. I know more than a few people who owned a Taurus in the last decade who suffered from their infamous "biodegradable transmissions" (see volumes of Phil Edmundson's Lemon Aid Guides for the term).
These people have all gone "import" after their negative experiences with Ford.

Ford will obviously survive the current crisis though.

I wish them luck.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Taurus was a very strong seller for Ford - given the millions sold it's not suprising there were some issues over the model cycle.



> Since its launch in 1986, Ford has sold 7,410,446 Tauruses worldwide as of July 31, 2009


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

It sold many in the past, but that doesn't mean anything these days in a market where the domestic cars have to prove themselves all over again and convince many customers to come back. The Dodge Caravan sold millions and it was the forefather of the minivan but all in all, it's negatively perceived these days. Wouldn't it be easier for a "re-birth" with new product and new names? Goes a long way for perception. Aside from the unconvincing name revival, it competes way too close to the much fresher and positively perceived Fusion. I like what Ford is doing these days but this one baffles me. This has a bit of a GM taste to it - too many models and too alike.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

The Taurus is being marketted as a full size sports sedan to compete with the Pontiac G8 and Nissan Maxima among others. 

However, this is one Ford I'm very much looking forward to that's coming to North America hopefully 2011: The Fored C-Max, competitor to the Mazda 5 and Kia Rondo. It will come with a 1.6L Ecoboost Engine producing 180HP and likely 6 speed manual and 5 speed automatic transmissions. 35MPiG+ people mover, anyone? I currently average 30MPiG city/hwy in my Mazda 5.


































Seven seater configuration:









Six seater configuration:


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> and the Transit in a hybrid mode should prove very popular...even with us maybe...


I think this would be an ideal vehicle for you MacDoc. You seem happy with your Ford, you need something capacious to tote your computers around, and you are concerned about fuel consumption.

I know you were considering a Flex earlier - but that seems optimized for hauling two parents + 3 kids + luggage + dog on a cross country trip, while this seems optimized for hauling light cargo in the city.

Looks like they are already on sale in Canada:
Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited

You see a lot of these in Europe, most seem to be TDCi powered. Unfortunately the only powertrain listed here is a 2.0 I4 with AT - which is probably the right thing to offer in North America as they would probably only one or two TDCi / MT powered units a year in this part of the world.

I'm not a fan of hybrids as a magical answer to everything, but a hybrid would be ideal in this application. Unfortunately one doesn't seem to be offered, but I'll bet it would sell briskly to people using these in the city...


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MACinist said:


> ...(Taurus) competes way too close to the much fresher and positively perceived Fusion. I like what Ford is doing these days but this one baffles me. This has a bit of a GM taste to it - too many models and too alike.


It makes sense to me. Taurus is to Fusion as Avalon is to Camry - the Fusion is the high volume mid priced / mid sized model, the Taurus is a larger almost but not quite near luxury model that will sell in smaller numbers to those who want something larger and more plush.

The only thing confusing is the Fusion occupies the place formerly held by the Taurus...


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

dona83 said:


> I'm very much looking forward to that's coming to North America hopefully 2011: The Fored C-Max, competitor to the Mazda 5 and Kia Rondo. It will come with a 1.6L Ecoboost Engine producing 180HP and likely 6 speed manual and 5 speed automatic transmissions. 35MPiG+ people mover, anyone? I currently average 30MPiG city/hwy in my Mazda 5.


These make a lot of sense to me - although I doubt you will find that many with the 6MT in North America. Too hard to text on your mobile phone while driving a MT, so most prefer an automatic here.

Strange days - a North American marque is introducing well thought out, utilitarian vehicles just as Honda is getting ready to jump the shark with this abomination: 2010 Honda Accord Crosstour: Honda Got Back - Honda Accord Crosstour - Jalopnik. Perhaps they got a deal on the old tooling for the Aztec when Pontiac announced they would be winding down operations

Compare and contrast this bloated tank with the excellent '90s era Accord wagon that used to be offered here, and is still available elsewhere in the world: Honda Accord Tourer i-CTDi : ESTATE OF THE DIESEL ART - Yahoo! Cars


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> I think this would be an ideal vehicle for you MacDoc. You seem happy with your Ford, you need something capacious to tote your computers around, and you are concerned about fuel consumption.
> I know you were considering a Flex earlier - but that seems optimized for hauling two parents + 3 kids + luggage + dog on a cross country trip, while this seems optimized for hauling light cargo in the city.


I was looking at the Flex partially for it's touring ability - long legs and comfortable.....one magazine called it a superb road trip vehicle.
It sits a lot currently as the Silverwing does all the errands - then the van does only product pickup runs and the occasional large delivery.

It's a ways off yet

•••

Taurus has a positive image with Ford customers and dealers - the article says Ford is responding to DEMAND for the marque.
It is a full sized powerful sedan for those that want......be nice to see a wagon version.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> It is a full sized powerful sedan for those that want......be nice to see a wagon version.


I'd like to see a wagon version too - my current vehicle is a Taurus wagon, as was my previous. Great cars.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

The Doug said:


> I'd like to see a wagon version too - my current vehicle is a Taurus wagon, as was my previous. Great cars.


Wouldn't that be the Taurus-X? lol.



PenguinBoy said:


> These make a lot of sense to me - although I doubt you will find that many with the 6MT in North America. Too hard to text on your mobile phone while driving a MT, so most prefer an automatic here.


The auto companies will have to pry my dead right hand off the shifter and pry my dead left foot off the clutch. Yes I am going to superglue my left foot onto my clutch.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> *Ford Taurus SHO: The 2009 Esquire Car of the Year*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2010 Ford Taurus SHO Test Drive - Car of the Year: New Taurus SHO - Esquire


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I was really really hoping they'd bring back the manual SHO.  Only the first and second gen SHOs came in manual. 365HP with manual in a full size sedan format would've been *drool*.

Too bad the Pontiac G8 GXP isn't available in Canada.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

dona83 said:


> The Taurus is being marketted as a full size sports sedan to compete with the Pontiac G8 and Nissan Maxima among others.



Isn't Pontiac branding being phased out? Sorry, but I would never put any Ford in the same line-sight as a Maxima.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

PenguinBoy said:


> It makes sense to me. Taurus is to Fusion as Avalon is to Camry - the Fusion is the high volume mid priced / mid sized model, the Taurus is a larger almost but not quite near luxury model that will sell in smaller numbers to those who want something larger and more plush.
> 
> The only thing confusing is the Fusion occupies the place formerly held by the Taurus...


Don't see many Avalons on the road. Wonder what their sales numbers are. But you bring up a good point: why they would bring that name back when it doesn't even represent the class it used to stand for on the food chain? It's like re-branding the civic as a mid-sized sedan to take the place of the Accord.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

PenguinBoy said:


> Strange days - a North American marque is introducing well thought out, utilitarian vehicles just as Honda is getting ready to jump the shark with this abomination: 2010 Honda Accord Crosstour: Honda Got Back - Honda Accord Crosstour - Jalopnik. Perhaps they got a deal on the old tooling for the Aztec when Pontiac announced they would be winding down operations


Lol... I'm actually really into this cross-over. I don't see any resemblance to the ASStec. More people I spoke say it looks closer to the very popular (in Toronto anyways) BMW X5 luxury cross over. I wouldn't be surprised if these took off as long as they are priced right. Find the newer Accords keep jumping up the MSRP ladder every year.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Taurus has a positive image with Ford customers and dealers - the article says Ford is responding to DEMAND for the marque.
> It is a full sized powerful sedan for those that want......be nice to see a wagon version.


Looking at the actual car in more detail, I guess it could have demand. However, I'm still baffled by the name choice. Growing up, my age group and not sure if my region, associated the Taurus and it's owners with quite the opposite of what it's supposed to be today. I would require more work to be convinced to buy one simply because of my past associations. 

update: further reading on this new model, came across this article. No crediting any comments but opinion seems to be shared. Just read the 1st two and both share similar association with the name. 
CanadianDriver First Drives First Drive: 2010 Ford Taurus SHO

As a side note, I much prefer cars being named in acronym format alpha or alphanumerically. There are a few cars that get the names right and make it roll off the tongue nicely matching the car's characteristics. But there are a lot that don't. Prime example to me is the Malibu. It's one of those GM's that I actually would consider buying, however, the name is horrible and would probably never buy one because of it. F150, G37, 325i, TSX, S10, Z24 are all names that sound better to me.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MACinist said:


> Sorry, but I would never put any Ford in the same line-sight as a Maxima.


Well, the Taurus and the Maxima are somewhat affordable large front drivers with good driving dynamics.

The comparison ends there though as Nissan's reliability, while still not bad, doesn't seem to be anywhere near as good as Ford's these days. Also, I find the new Maxima somewhat garish looking - much better than the 2004 - 2008 models, but far a cry from the understated elegance of the earlier models.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MACinist said:


> Lol... I'm actually really into this cross-over. I don't see any resemblance to the ASStec. More people I spoke say it looks closer to the very popular (in Toronto anyways) BMW X5 luxury cross over.


Do you mean X6? The X6, like the Aztec / Crosstour, has a fastback while the X5 is a somewhat conventional looking crossover.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

PenguinBoy said:


> Do you mean X6? The X6, like the Aztec / Crosstour, has a fastback while the X5 is a somewhat conventional looking crossover.


Yes, you are right, I meant the X6.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

PenguinBoy said:


> Well, the Taurus and the Maxima are somewhat affordable large front drivers with good driving dynamics.
> 
> The comparison ends there though as Nissan's reliability, while still not bad, doesn't seem to be anywhere near as good as Ford's these days. Also, I find the new Maxima somewhat garish looking - much better than the 2004 - 2008 models, but far a cry from the understated elegance of the earlier models.


On this one, you and I are on two different spectrums of taste and facts:

The Maxima is a premium sporty sedan with historically, one of the best engineered V6 engines of all time. Reliability has always been better with the Maxima. Ford has only caught up in the past couple years...barely. It has been officially marketed as a four door sports car. The Taurus, or any other Ford sedan, could not even come close in engineering and performance. The SHO might of come closer but that's a limited enthusiast version with modest public recognition. The Taurus was always a (lame) family sedan with bland bubbly styling. Owner satisfaction has always been in the below average range and nothing close to Nissan sedan's like the closer competing Altima. Check the reports for both I pulled from ConsumerReports.org. However, this may yet change with the new re-birth of the Taurus. 

Regarding design, in my opinion, this is the best one yet. I didn't really like the previous versions as they were too bubbly and round on both ends. The back of the Maxima has always been something I thought the designers gave little thought to. Nissan has publicly said it took this year's design from the Infiniti G and M series cars (G being one of the most popular luxury sports coupes/sedans in Canada and one of my fave). Personally, I actually see the resemblance in the Nissan GT-R Skyline more than anything which is an exotic sports car (beautiful in my opinion). However, the Skyline was always the Euro version of the G35 so it makes sense.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MACinist said:


> On this one, you and I are on two different spectrums of taste and facts:


I didn't much care for the square '80s Maximas - I would suggest that a first gen Taurus was ahead of a Maxima of the same year. I would say two '80s cars that really influenced the look of cars in the '90s were the Taurus and the Audi 5000. The Taurus arguably had a greater influence as it was the cheaper car and sold in larger numbers.

I really like the '90s Maximas, from about '89 ("four door sports car") through '04. While some years might have been a bit rounded and bland to some I think they have a sort of timeless understate elegance to them. A well preserved '89 Maxima still looks good 20 years on, IMHO.

The previous gen Maxima that ran up until last year was the worst one since the mid '80s, I didn't like the look from any angle outside, and some aspects of the interior didn't exactly scream "Premium Sports Sedan" to me.

The current version, while a big improvement on the previous gen, appears a bit cartoonish and "blingy" to me. I also don't see the appeal of the Maxima any more - if you want a bit, plush, fast, Nissan sedan you can get a loaded up Altima for quite a bit less, or pay just a bit more and get a G37 with AWD or RWD. The Maxima was traditionally the next model up from the Altima - but once the Altima moved upscale and the G35 / 37 was introduced I think its reason for being went away.

Nissan quality seems to have slipped around the time of their near death experience and merger with Renault in the late '90s. They aren't bad, but they don't seem to be in the same class as Honda and Toyota for example. It seems they are about mid pack in quality. Ford quality seems to have ranged from mediocre to poor at times, but it seems they turned a corner circa 2006. By all accounts they now seem to be in the same league as Honda and Toyota now - which should make them better than Nissan. Since both the Taurus and Maxima are new models it is tough to say for sure which will be more reliable, once there are enough out there for some repair history to build up you could check a site like TrueDelta Car Reliability and Gas Mileage Information to compare.

Ford has never been known as an engine company, and the Nissan VQ V-6 was on the "Ward's 10 Best Engines" for an awfully long time - but time marches on, and no Nissan engines are on the current list. I'm sure the Nissan engines are still class competitive, they just don't seem to be class leading like they once were.

Overall, I would have to say the current Taurus SHO looks like a step up from the current Maxima on paper. It has more power, AWD rather than FWD, and I prefer the styling. The new Taurus is a bit to big and bulky for my tastes (I would rather have one of these: Mondeo) but it still seems like a nice car.

If the taint of the domestic nameplate and Taurus badge cause rapid depreciation, a clean used Taurus SHO might be a great bargain in about three years time...


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

The words of my wife... the Ford Flex is nice and we can probably get one for a bargain in 3 years if we wanted.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

PenguinBoy said:


> I also don't see the appeal of the Maxima any more - if you want a bit, plush, fast, Nissan sedan you can get a loaded up Altima for quite a bit less, or pay just a bit more and get a G37 with AWD or RWD. The Maxima was traditionally the next model up from the Altima - but once the Altima moved upscale and the G35 / 37 was introduced I think its reason for being went away.


I do agree with you there. 



PenguinBoy said:


> Ford quality seems to have ranged from mediocre to poor at times, but it seems they turned a corner circa 2006. By all accounts they now seem to be in the same league as Honda and Toyota now - which should make them better than Nissan. Since both the Taurus and Maxima are new models it is tough to say for sure which will be more reliable, once there are enough out there for some repair history to build up you could check a site like TrueDelta Car Reliability and Gas Mileage Information to compare.


I think that corner turn was when they finally decided to use the Volvo platform for their sedans.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

kps said:


> But still, many dealers are desperate and so are the manufacturers. Lots of bargoons to be had if you're buying. I'm seriously considering a new pickup. The itch is strooong.


In answer to my post on page one of this thread...*the itch has been scratched!*

My new '09 Ford F150 
*


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Love the license plate....


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> Love the license plate....


Shhhh...photoshop.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Still on a roll with winners



> *Ford hybrid sales up 73 percent compared to 2008, when Fusion/Milan weren't available*
> 
> by *Sebastian Blanco* (RSS feed) on Oct 15th 2009 at 9:56AM
> 
> ...


more

Ford hybrid sales up 73 percent compared to 2008, when Fusion/Milan weren't available — Autoblog Green


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Doc, you should have bought the Flex you wanted when Ford had the "Employee Pricing" deal going. The pickup I bought cost me $2000 more than what I paid for my 2002 F150 and it's 10x the truck. How could I say no?


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## Toho (Jan 27, 2009)

I have Owned Ford Vehicles since 1967 when i bought a 1948 ford F-1 for about $120. Today I own a Expedition which is really nice when towing my boat or taking the kids on a road trip. 

Also I am a big fan of the Ford vehicles coming out of europe. like the galaxy or the s-max and the Ka or even the Fiesta.\

Keep it up Ford!!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

KPS - changed plans so barely use the Freestar as it is.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> KPS - changed plans so barely use the Freestar as it is.


So what's on your radar...don't tell me you intend to run around on that scooter.

Wife will need new wheels soon, the Fusion Hybrid may be an option...also helps to offset the carbon footprint of my F150.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

The Fusion Hybrid seems like it would be a good choice for taxi fleets - more room than a Prius, better fuel consumption than a Crown Vic...


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

PenguinBoy said:


> The Fusion Hybrid seems like it would be a good choice for taxi fleets - more room than a Prius, better fuel consumption than a Crown Vic...


Ford is always thinking about those fleet sales!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Scooter and Freestar for a few years.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Adrian. said:


> Ford is always thinking about those fleet sales!


Actually, I was thinking about it from the perspective of the fleet owners - I don't think the Fusion hybrid is actually aimed at fleets, I think Ford is trying to limit fleet sales of their mainstream products these days in order to improve resale value. 

I think the real reason the Fusion hybrid exists is to steal the Camry hybrid's thunder a bit by offering better fuel economy and driving dynamics while matching it in other areas.

I suspect the 6MT base model Fusion is offered for the same reason - virtually all mainstream domestic sedan buyers want an AT, but by offering the 4 cyl / MT car they are going after folks who would ordinarily consider an Accord / Altima / Camry.

While Ford has some vehicles that are obviously aimed at fleets (e.g., Crown Vic, Transit Connect, Base model F-150), It seems to me that they are going after conquest sales rather than Fleets with the Fusion.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

And seems to be proving out as they are stealing sales from the Japanese and Europeans.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

My neighbor bought a Fusion hybrid as their second car and love it. They want to see how it does in a St.John's winter, however.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Hmmm Dr. G - might consider adding Ford to the nest egg portfolio



> *Ford Reports Surprise $1 Billion Quarterly Profit*
> Published: Monday, 2 Nov 2009 | 7:12 AM ET
> 
> 
> ...


 

Ford Reports Surprise $1 Billion Quarterly Profit - Companies * US * News * Story - CNBC.com


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

What about my holdings in ZENN???


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If eEstor pans out Ford will be early in the queue/


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Nice job Ford. I'm impressed.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> If eEstor pans out Ford will be early in the queue/


We shall see.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

*All is not rosy for Ford reliability*

Motor World: All is not rosy for Ford reliability - Oct. 28, 2009



> The automaker looks good in Consumer Reports' latest owner survey but you have to dig a little deeper for the full story.
> 
> NEW YORK (Fortune) -- If you follow autos and the auto industry, you are hearing a lot about the results of Consumer Reports' latest reliability survey.
> 
> ...


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

YouTube - Jeremy's Extreme Ford Fiesta road test

Top Gear reviews the Ford Fiesta, very funny!!!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

:clap:


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

*Hydrogen Powered Ford F-250 Super Chief*

This is some truck:

Under the forward-opening hood rests a sleeping giant — a tri-fuel-capable V10 displacing 6.8 liters. What's "tri-fuel"? Check this out: Like some 1.6 million ethanol-gasoline-powered Fords already on the road, this V10 eagerly gulps down gasoline or E85 ethanol. However, the supercharger that tops the Super Chief's 30-valve aluminum heads and intake spools up only when the fuel supply switches to clean-burning hydrogen. A multiple-storage-tank setup under the truck's bed provides a claimed range of nearly 500 miles running on hydrogen. Running on E85 and gasoline, the V10 produces 310 horsepower, with torque coming in at 425 pound-feet. Power drops when running on hydrogen, but the supercharger keeps the torque rating at 400.

Plum Locomotive: Ford F-250 Super Chief Concept


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Rock and roll big time....



> *Ford Reports Profit of $2.1 Billion in Quarter*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


more
Ford Reports Profit of $2.1 Billion in Quarter - NYTimes.com​


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Yeah I heard this this morning as well. If any North American auto maker deserves to be making money right now it is Ford.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Alan Mulally=injection of new blood=success

North American auto industry needed (still needs) an enema. The best thing that happened was when it fell on hard times.

Today, GM announced an expansion of the St. Catherines Ontario engine plant. Oshawa has 2 of the 3 plants in operation making the Camaro and the Malibu and retooling for another model.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

I drove 1000 km in a rented Fusion last week, I lucked out and got a loaded up SEL AWD Sport V-6 version. While there were a couple of minor things I didn't like, such as the cheesy looking dash and interior door handles, on the whole it was a nice car to drive and a *big* upgrade from standard rental grade Taurii that used to be the standard issue at rental lots.

Overall, I would consider this car an upgrade over the Camry / Accord / Altima - and even without the big engine and AWD would at least be class competitive with them. I know my neighbour cross shopped a Camry and Fusion late last year, and came home with the Fusion. So far he seems happy with it, if these conquest customers have a good experience then Ford will be well on their way to repairing their damaged brand. I would guess they are about four years into a ten year journey - although the internet seems to speed this sort of thing up a bit. There will always be a few haters that will never look at a Ford because their uncle's Pinto was a rusty POS in 1978 - but it's starting to look like they are winning a few conquest sales.

This next move strikes me as a gutsy one:


> Ford’s priced the sedan about five hundred bucks above the Yaris at $13,995, while the better-equipped five-door is right in Fit territory... Never in American history has a small Ford been sold on excellence, rather than price. It will be a tough pill for the dealers to swallow.


source: Review: 2011 Ford Fiesta | The Truth About Cars

It will be interesting to see how this plays out - consumers have been happy to pay the "Toyonda Premium" for a while, but I'm not sure they are ready to do this with a Ford yet. On the other hand, Ford quality and resale value has been creeping up for the past few years, so they ~might~ be able to make it work.

This is *absolutely* the right thing to do in the long run though, as producers in high wage countries can't win a race to the bottom on price with their cost structure, so they will have to produce a product that consumers are willing to pay a premium for if they want to survive.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Ford Start Concept features 1.0-litre, three-cylinder EcoBoost engine*

*Hmmm... that kinda looks like an iPhone OS interface in the dash...*





> Unveiled at the Beijing Motor Show, there's definitely a certain stripped-back elegance about the Start Concept, which along with its sculpted lines and some clever interior customization options, features a new 1.0-liter, three-cylinder addition to the company's EcoBoost petrol engine family that promises a CO2 rating of under 100 g/km.




(GizMag)


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

_have you driven a Ford lately_ ....seems time..



> *Ford climbs to top in quality while Toyota plunges in annual study
> *
> 
> Jun 18, 2010
> ...


more
Ford climbs to top in quality while Toyota plunges in annual... | Wheels.ca


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

An interesting article, MacDoc. Merci, mon ami.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Ford, give me the 7 seater C-Max fully loaded with a six speed manual transmission and EcoBoost engine and you have an automatic sale from me!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

on a roll...and much against the trend



> Greg Keenan
> Globe and Mail Update
> Published on Friday, Jul. 02, 2010 9:50AM EDT
> Last updated on Friday, Jul. 02, 2010 10:00AM EDT
> ...


Ford Canada posts best monthly sales in a decade - The Globe and Mail


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

The latest from ConsumerReports.org:



> Ford still leads the domestics
> Ford consolidated its position as the only Detroit automaker with world-class reliability. The Fusion and Milan led the charge; four-cylinder, front-wheel-drive V6, and hybrid versions got top marks.
> 
> Of the 51 Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products that we surveyed, 46, or about 90 percent, were average or better, including the new Ford Flex SUV. But the Lincoln division had mixed results; some models scored below their Ford equivalents. All-wheel-drive versions of the Lincoln MKS, MKX, and MKZ, essentially high-end versions of the Ford Taurus, Edge, and Fusion, were all below average.
> ...





> Asian brands still dominate
> 
> The major Japanese brands and South Korea's Hyundai and Kia make plenty of reliable vehicles. Of the 48 models with top reliability scores, 36 were Asian. Toyota accounted for 18; Honda, eight; Nissan, four; and Hyundai/Kia and Subaru, three each.
> 
> ...


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