# Electric Car = Bad Idea



## RunTheWorldOnMac

Is it just me or are electric cars a bad idea; I mean plug in the wall fully electric cars like GM is pursuing...think it's called the volt. This car does have the ability to charge on fuel but cann plug into a 110-volt outlet.

With energy crisis an everyday phrase, how is this anywhere near a good idea? Will it actually offset the cost of refining fuel if people are using less fuel? Doubt it, doubt it woud make a dent in fuel consumption unless all vehicles on the road make this change... NA GA HAP EN!

Discuss amongst yourselves, I'm veklempt...


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## eMacMan

The issue is that reducing fuel consumption does not always mean an environmentally friendly car. For example regular batteries contain lead and sulfuric acid. The more exotic batteries, required by an all electric car, are even more poisonous. Even a hybrid totes around a LOT of batteries. A car that runs entirely on battery power requires even more of them. Whatever; the owner can expect a huge bill when the time comes to replace those battery banks.


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## MacDoc

Current battery tech is designed around 15 year battery packs ( basically the life of the car ) with a strong closed cycle aspect ( gets turned back into the manufacturing facility ).

Electric Vehicle Battery Primer: A Conversation with John Voelcker « Earth2Tech

Compared to the savings in carbon emissions- it's a very minor aspect.

It's early yet - I'll let you know when I get mine 

Ah $3 fillups - can't wait.


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## kps

MacDoc said:


> Ah $3 fillups - can't wait.


Somebody somewhere will make sure....*that* does not happen.


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## Macfury

kps said:


> Somebody somewhere will make sure....*that* does not happen.


Sure. The government won't rest until they put a 900% tax on it.


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## chas_m

I think it was MAD Magazine who (very sagely, and not for the first time) said "Solar power will never take off because nobody owns the sun, and the government can't tax the sun."

(not the exact quote, I'm afraid -- I read this about 30 years ago, the last time solar power was touted as a solution to oil dependency.)

I'd love to get excited about electric cars, but more electricity (with present technology) means more coal-fired plants (or more nuclear), more air or radiation pollution, and no net gain on carbon reductions, at least from what I've read so far.

I think the real innovations are going to be more fundamental, ie better conductivity, fission research, solar (yes, solar in selected uses), steam and wind.


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## kps

chas_m said:


> I think it was MAD Magazine who (very sagely, and not for the first time) said "Solar power will never take off because nobody owns the sun, and the government can't tax the sun."


Nice quote, but governments can certainly tax the technology and/or the equipment.

The 'little guy' will always get the shaft...and I don't mean the one on a wind turbine.


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## CanadaRAM

Couple of things 
Electric is inherently more efficient in stop and go driving... no idling. 
They produce less heat -- somewhere over 60% of gasoline energy is wasted as tailpipe and radiator heat that has to be dissipated. Electric's challenge is of course efficient batteries.

But mostly -- electricity is a delivery mechanism for energy. Gasoline is a delivery mechanism for energy, so are coal, diesel and hydrogen. They all have different efficiencies and losses -- for example even if you burn oil it is much easier to generate electricity efficiently at a central powerplant and control emissions, than it is to generate an equivalent amount of power in 100,000 individual car engines and control emissions. -- I simply don't buy the 'no net gains' argument against electric. Once you have fleets of electic on the road you have options -- you can bring on new technologies in solar wind and tidal and phase out the fossil fuel plants without changing the autos.


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## kloan

eMacMan said:


> .....Even a hybrid totes around a LOT of batteries.....


Two isn't really that many...


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## fjnmusic

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> Is it just me or are electric cars a bad idea; I mean plug in the wall fully electric cars like GM is pursuing...think it's called the volt. This car does have the ability to charge on fuel but cann plug into a 110-volt outlet.
> 
> With energy crisis an everyday phrase, how is this anywhere near a good idea? Will it actually offset the cost of refining fuel if people are using less fuel? Doubt it, doubt it woud make a dent in fuel consumption unless all vehicles on the road make this change... NA GA HAP EN!
> 
> Discuss amongst yourselves, I'm veklempt...


The Progressive Conservative Party is neithr progressive nor is it conservative nor is it a party…discuss.  

I'm not sure what it says if you use less gasoline but end up using more electricity, likely produced at coal firing plants. That's my beef about the proposed mandatory use of CFC's actually—if incandescent bulbs have 90% of their energy in the form of heat, isn't that less natural gas we'd need to heat our homes as a result?


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## spitfire1945

why don't you buy a pretty little scooter and ride it around town with your girlfriends eh?


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## Mississauga

Electrically powered personal transportation has a LONG way to go before pronouncing it wholly environmentally friendly. Currently, the technology is only a nice thought and somewhat of a consumer level money saver.

The potential for alternate fuel vehicles is unlimited. A concerted effort could have delivered products which are environmentally friendly and economical, easily by now. Everyone could have been driving energy efficient, low cost, maintenance free personal transportation today!

Until the last drop of oil is squeezed from this rock, it's all a pipe dream.


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## Darien Red Sox

Mississauga said:


> Electrically powered personal transportation has a LONG way to go before pronouncing it wholly environmentally friendly. Currently, the technology is only a nice thought and somewhat of a consumer level money saver.
> 
> The potential for alternate fuel vehicles is unlimited. A concerted effort could have delivered products which are environmentally friendly and economical, easily by now. Everyone could have been driving energy efficient, low cost, maintenance free personal transportation today!
> 
> Until the last drop of oil is squeezed from this rock, it's all a pipe dream.


There were electric cars developed by GM about 10 years ago in the US but because of political problems in Washington they all got pulled from the market. I think they were only sold on the West cost.


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## eMacMan

MacDoc said:


> Current battery tech is designed around 15 year battery packs ( basically the life of the car ) with a strong closed cycle aspect ( gets turned back into the manufacturing facility ).
> 
> Electric Vehicle Battery Primer: A Conversation with John Voelcker « Earth2Tech
> 
> Compared to the savings in carbon emissions- it's a very minor aspect.
> 
> It's early yet - I'll let you know when I get mine
> 
> Ah $3 fillups - can't wait.


Couple of thoughts. First these are recent technology batteries. The Energizer NiMH batteries I use in my camera claim thousands of cycles and 20+year life spans. However after about 30 cycles the charge holds about 10 days instead of 6 weeks. Are the 15 year life spans similarly exaggerated? 

I assume the recycling will take place in India or China or some overseas location that offers no oversight, no environmental protection and no guarantee that recycling will take place at all. Nor will there be any guarantee that the workers handling these products are not being poisoned due to inadequate equipment or training. Actually how do we know the batteries won't be dumped into the ocean as soon as the captain is sure his ship is not being watched by the coast guard?

A key aspect to a successful electric vehicle is a solar powered charge system (probably on the roof of the garage). To be really useful this needs to drop in price from $10/watt to about 50¢/watt for the initial installation. A small wind generator could also do the trick in some areas. But either way the most efficient use will be local commuting for someone that works at night.


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## Max

eMacMan said:


> I assume the recycling will take place in India or China or some overseas location that offers no oversight, no environmental protection and no guarantee that recycling will take place at all. Nor will there be any guarantee that the workers handling these products are not being poisoned due to inadequate equipment or training. Actually how do we know the batteries won't be dumped into the ocean as soon as the captain is sure his ship is not being watched by the coast guard?


Good points, eMacMan. I suspect we are often quite content to accept the term "environmentally friendly" at face value and are ill-inclined to dig up the particulars.


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## Mississauga

Darien Red Sox said:


> There were electric cars developed by GM about 10 years ago in the US but because of political problems in Washington they all got pulled from the market. I think they were only sold on the West cost.


Ah, yes... the EV1 of "Who Killed the Electric Car" fame. Plenty of unanswered questions regarding its demise/withdrawal/death. Undoubtedly, it was "too good" for the masses.


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## MacDoc

Against polluting the atmosphere battery recycle issues are a bit of red herring. Even now 95%+ of lead acid batteries are recycled.
Information on Recycling Lead-Acid/Automotive Batteries

a) solar is completely immaterial - a fillup with grid power is $3 - who cares 

Long term battery packs for vehicles are expensive assemblies and to be cost effective for the companies will mandate factory replacement just as the Prius does now.

Toyota even pays scrap yards that handle damaged Prius for the battery packs. They pay $200 for a Prius - you can imagine what a full EV pack is worth.

Comparing a camera battery pack with a vehicle is like chatting about a wind up rubber band plane and a airworthiness certified aircraft...utter tripe. 

One the major keys to EV is battery pack life cycle cost - they are NOT a throwaway item.

A large aspect of this is getting weight down with composites. Most people drive short distances and that's where EVs will make big inroads. But having to cope with major highway driving in the same vehicle presents a problem in getting weight under control.
hell most people could do a lot of run about in a golf cart ( and do in sunny areas ). That's how Friendly Cars got started.

It's the major road issue that is tricky.

A week of driving locally for $3 bucks in electricity is available NOW if some of the gov barriers get sorted out.

Volt's approach is a serious mass market - usable under a wide range of conditions and geared for major roads.

No gas locally and yet a 600 mile range...that's a magic combination.

Plug in Prius is near and so is a Honda EV.

These guys are coming to North America this year

Home - Think












> city
> 
> TH!NK city demands very little of you. In fact, not much more than a mobile phone. Just an overnight power top-up, and it’s ready to go in the morning. It can travel up to 200 kilometres (124 miles) in city driving on a fully charged battery, with a top speed of 100km/h. It is fun, clean and simple.





> *Think City EV*
> With its award-winning focus on clean lines and clever details, Think City is an example of the best Norwegian design. Well-defined wheel arches, ample width and strongly defined shoulders are indicative of good road-holding and excellent handling. Luckily it not only wins design prizes; it also wins hearts.
> 
> *Available in Europe in the first half of 2008; available in the US in 2009)*





> *EnerDel puts a lithium-ion pack in a Th!nk City EV*
> 
> Posted Jun 9th 2008 at 5:09PM by Sebastian Blanco
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EnerDel, the li-ion battery subsidiary of Ener1, announce today that a "fully functional lithium-ion battery pack" is currently operational in a Th!nk City electric vehicle in Indianapolis.
> 
> *Ener1 has a large and growing facility in Indianapolis, and it's no secret that Norwegian company Th!nk will soon build cars in North America, with an eye to selling up to 50,000 units here each year. *
> 
> Ener1 sent out an email to investors today that says that the installation of the li-ion pack, "indicates that EnerDel is on schedule to meet the year-end timetable for volume production under its supply agreement with Think Global." It seems like the battery pack is a 27 kWh pack, just like the three EnerDel sent to Think Global earlier this year. The potential success of companies like EnerDel and Th!nk are good not only for drivers - who might see hybrid premium paytimes of as little as two years if they're not into the pure EVs - but also for the venture capitalists who have been standing behind Th!nk.


It's here now.....lots more to come...

Galleries for Th!nk here

Th!nk City - AutoblogGreen

This the one I like - slated for 2011 from the same company









KickingTires: Think Ox Concept


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## Adrian.

People never look at the best application for electric motors......transport trucks. Electric motors have 100% of their torque at 0 rpms! 


As far as batteries go this is a really cool article:

A 'revolution' in batteries - Cosmic Log - msnbc.com


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## DANdeMAN

chas_m said:


> I think it was MAD Magazine who (very sagely, and not for the first time) said "Solar power will never take off because nobody owns the sun, and the government can't tax the sun."


Well, they are not far from it...they are taxing carbon now. XX)


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## adagio

Electric sounds cool but how do you plug it in to charge up?

I don't think some of you have thought things out. The bulk of the people living in the city, who are most inclined to want an electric car, have no driveway and no way of charging. 

Another thing to ponder. How well do these all electric cars keep a charge at -30 C for a couple of weeks when they are parked outside 24/7 ?

As neat as an all electric car sounds I don't see any practicality in them. Hybrid is the way to go, IMO.


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## Max

Hybrid is but a bridge technology, Marg. Good while there's still oil around that's not too expensive to tap. We have to think beyond that step, however useful and practical it's becoming.

But I agree with your observation about electrics and city parking. I don't have a driveway myself, merely a permit to park on my street. And yes, how does this coming battery tech behave in the coldest winter months?


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## Adrian.

Batteries hold their charge better in the fridge...so I would assume the winter would be the same sort of deal?


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## CanadaRAM

fjnmusic said:


> if incandescent bulbs have 90% of their energy in the form of heat, isn't that less natural gas we'd need to heat our homes as a result?


If you were needing heat at the ceiling level of that particular room. 
If it isn't summer and you're not consuming MORE power on AC to remove the excess heat. (Huge problem in the southern US)
If you're not in an office building where machinery and bodies already generate more heat than is needed.


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## anal-log

I want one of these Tesla


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## MacDoc

Some lithium battery types perform very well in the cold but that is an issue as well providing cabin heat.
We used to have plug-in block heater stations - these will likely now transform to battery stations.
The advantage is that you're getting power not just heat to warm the block.

No question EV is more suited to warmer climes but Toronto and Vancouver would be no great issue.

Eventually we might see swappable standard battery packs with little AAA trucks running around for stranded motorists.

Parking meters might have "for pay" power outlets for a top up.

Covered with solar panels it's a nice little income generator and shades the vehicles.

Lots of opportunity.


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## chas_m

CanadaRAM said:


> Couple of things
> Electric is inherently more efficient in stop and go driving... no idling.
> They produce less heat -- somewhere over 60% of gasoline energy is wasted as tailpipe and radiator heat that has to be dissipated. Electric's challenge is of course efficient batteries.


Right, thanks. I should have mentioned that the concept of electric cars is great, it's just that present wide-use technology isn't quite up to the task. For the all-electric car to work, we'd need a less expensive and more-replaceable battery technology as well as more efficient batteries.



> But mostly -- electricity is a delivery mechanism for energy. Gasoline is a delivery mechanism for energy, so are coal, diesel and hydrogen.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Once you have fleets of electic on the road you have options -- you can bring on new technologies in solar wind and tidal and phase out the fossil fuel plants without changing the autos.


Good point.


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## mbaldwin

anal-log said:


> I want one of these Tesla


No kidding!

The stuff that Tesla is doing is pretty darned cool, and I think they have a really good strategy. First, they shattered the stereotype of electric autos (slow, unexciting, bland styling). The technology is still expensive, so a high-performance (and high cost) car is a great way to advance the technology and learn how to mass-produce it. The next step is to make a more "normal" car with a decent price tag, which they are already doing preliminary work on.

Their car uses thousands of small lithium-ion rechargeables, and the engineering put into their battery pack is amazing. It's thermally controlled for optimum performance and durability. It's designed to be safer in a collision. And they claim a lifespan of 100000 miles.

As for the questions regarding cold temperatures, Tesla claims that the roadster will work down to an ambient temperature of -20C. The batteries have to be above 0C to charge, but that's where the thermal control of the battery pack comes in.

Sounds very promising to me...


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## MacDoc

> we'd need a less expensive and more-replaceable battery technology as well as more efficient batteries.


??

Are you talking about range??

The only limitation right now is energy density ( range/weight )- they have life span and EV vehicles are in use now at far more overall efficiency than gasoline vehicles.

It's really only range that is a problem currently. That one reason a small fossil generating engine as a part of current EV plug in is an ideal solution for transition.

What we need is for cities to mandate plug in hybrids for ALL taxies.


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## Glipt

EVs will only be a cost saver for individuals as long as very few people have them. @ $3 a fill up to your electric utility, the govt. will be getting no road tax. OK for a few cars, but if many or most cars go EV expect a per km tax of something like 5-7 cents per km each year when you register.


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## MacDoc

Impossible to monitor.

Major roads will go to electronic toll and local roads will depend on local taxes.

One good way to get the damn feds out of local tax flows.


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## eMacMan

CanadaRAM said:


> If you were needing heat at the ceiling level of that particular room.
> If it isn't summer and you're not consuming MORE power on AC to remove the excess heat. (Huge problem in the southern US)
> If you're not in an office building where machinery and bodies already generate more heat than is needed.


Of course this is Canada. Four months of the year we can get by with no light bulbs at all. The rest of the year that "wasted" heat helps to warm our homes and is truly appreciated. 

BTW the environmental damage of the Mercury and Phosphors contained in CFBs far outweigh the benefits of reduced power consumption. Especially in Canada where there is no plan or technology in place to recover the toxic elements.


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## MacDoc

Now THIS is nice :clap:



> Peugeot HYmotion3 Compressor Concept combines C1, MP3 and Prius tech to create most advanced scooter ever












Peugeot HYmotion3 Compressor Concept combines C1, MP3 and Prius tech to create most advanced scooter ever - Hell For Leather


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## Adrian.

I am surprised no company has seriously invested in electric technology for transport trucks. The whole 100% of the torque at 0 RPM would be a huge benefit.


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## MacDoc

I think you will see electric or hydraulic assist on that front.
Hydraulic recapture makes the most sense for trucks.

Electric adds weight and complexity and most trucks travel long distances where hybrids are almost meaningless.

Hydrogen injection kits are becoming popular.

I think we will see the rebirth on intermodal as a main hauling mode.

That said GE has a hybrid locomotive tho that is sort of a no brainer anyway.

YouTube - GE's NEW Hybrid Locomotive


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## EvanPitts

MacDoc said:


> That said GE has a hybrid locomotive tho that is sort of a no brainer anyway.


That's nothing new - seeing that Diesel-Electric locomotives have always been "hybrid"...


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## MacDoc

What don't you understand about batteries


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## iJohnHenry

How about the Smart ED, soon to be in major cities in Europe*.

*Your results may vary.


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## MacDoc

Seems there will be a ton of pHEV in 2010 - it's still the Ox that is best for us to replace the van but not sure when it will be around.










Th!nk Ox - AutoblogGreen

Still I won't get 16 MacPros in it


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## johnb1

*Electric Car=Interesting idea*

Well, full of potential, perhaps, but not street-legal-not yet. I think for short jaunts in the city, they'd be okay. Solar is starting to come into its own, thanks to cheaper manufacturing and greater efficiencies and may supplement conventional sources of power. There's really no way (at least in Alberta) to sell the power generated by solar back to the Electric Company. They barely tolerate it as is..
As for CFL's, well, they're a good start. You can't really use 'em in lights that are dimmed, and I haven't dared to put 'em in my oven, and you can't really use 'em 
that well outside as the cold makes 'em slow to start up. LED lights aren't practical yet ($50 a bulb? I don't think so). I was kinda looking at TATA's truck that runs on compressed air. Ugly, yes, but it does work. Now if they got a car that runs on methane, or maybe converted fast-food grease, and made enough of them, that would be a start. Instead of smog, the air might smell like french fries

How bout that, eh

JB


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## Niteshooter

eMacMan said:


> Couple of thoughts. First these are recent technology batteries. The Energizer NiMH batteries I use in my camera claim thousands of cycles and 20+year life spans. However after about 30 cycles the charge holds about 10 days instead of 6 weeks. Are the 15 year life spans similarly exaggerated?


NiMH batteries are kind of funny when it comes to storing them fully charged as I have read that doing so over time reduces their ability to take a full charge on subsequent cycles. Also overcharging can permanently damage the batteries.

Here's some info here.


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## Niteshooter

Wonder if our Canadian climate will be a problem as well. Batteries aren't too happy in really cold weather and the amount of salt we use in some regions isn't exactly a great thing for electrical contacts......

The Smart ED does look interesting....


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## eMacMan

Too bad about that minor little Canadian winter issue. Eight months a year you'd need a supplemental propane heater which would pretty much eat up all ofyour savings.beejacon


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## iJohnHenry

Yes, we discovered that back in the day of the original Bug.

Gasoline burner in the cabin?? Sure, no problem.


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## MACenstein'sMonster

MacDoc said:


> Now THIS is nice :clap:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peugeot HYmotion3 Compressor Concept combines C1, MP3 and Prius tech to create most advanced scooter ever - Hell For Leather


Very cool.

I read some of the comments below. Some dude was hoping it would only cost 5-6 thousand should it ever reach his market. If only


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## Mississauga

Niteshooter said:


> NiMH batteries are kind of funny... Here's some info here.


Thanks for that link!


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## MacDoc

This is very spooky to watch in action - videos in the link













> *Zero-X Electric Off-Road Motorcycle: Whisper-Quiet, Off-Road Power*
> 
> Posted on October 11th, 2008 by Sebastian Schepis in Electric Bicycles, Electric Motorcycles
> 
> Zero-X Electric Motorcycle
> 
> Check out the Zero-X off-road electric motorcycle, made by Zero Motorcycles, Inc. of Santa Cruz, California. The Zero-X is a 100% electric off-road motorcycle powered by a 17kW motor capable of 23 peak horsepower. That’s about equivalent to a 250cc gas motorcycle, and it’s not bad at all for an electric vehicle that weighs a meager 140 pounds. The light weight of the motorcycle itself is due to an innovative mix of motorcycle and modified bicycle parts and to an aircraft aluminum frame that weighs 18 pounds.
> 
> The Zero-X is quick - it can accelerate from 0-30 mph in under 2 seconds, with a top speed of about 60 mph. The ZERO X Speed controller features the ability to customize both the speed and acceleration of the motorcycle. With a flip of the switch you can limit the top speed to a “motorized bicycle” legal 30mph. Another switch sets the acceleration from the beginner-friendly “easy” mode to an unrestricted “sport” mode that gives you full power and full acceleration. With the electric motor giving you full torque at 0 rpm, popping wheelies is not a problem. And, since it’s totally quiet, you can ride this dirt bike in places you would not normally be able to due to noise restrictions.
> 
> The motor of the Zero-X is powered by a lithium-ion array capable of giving you between 1.5 to 2 hours of riding per charge. The batteries can be recharged in about 2 hours by using a provided fast battery charger that plugs into a standard wall outlet.


Zero-X Electric Off-Road Motorcycle: Whisper-Quiet, Off-Road Power | Zoomi Life


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## K_OS

Screw electric cars, screw Hybrids all people really have to do is change there driving habits.

Toyota Prius Vs BMW M3
YouTube - Toyota Prius vs BMW M3

Laterz


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## Mississauga

K_OS said:


> Screw electric cars, screw Hybrids all people really have to do is change there driving habits.
> 
> Toyota Prius Vs BMW M3
> YouTube - Toyota Prius vs BMW M3
> 
> Laterz


That video is a crock of shyte! Anyone with less than half a brain will immediately determine the ridiculous comparison from the road test.

Next!


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## MacDoc

Hotchewowa....



> *New Electric Car Leaves the Tesla Roadster in its Dust*
> Written by Megan Treacy
> Tuesday, 14 October 2008
> 
> If you’re dreaming of going electric, but also want to go fast, Venturi has designed a new all-electric roadster capable of reaching 160 mph, leaving the Tesla Roadster in the dust.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Introduced at the Paris Motor Show, the Volage uses Michelin’s Active Wheel technology, encasing two electric motors (one for propulsion, one for suspension) and brakes within each wheel. Putting all the power in the wheels allows for the slim, lightweight, carbon-fiber frame and greater vehicle control. All this amounts to extra speed.
> 
> Michelin’s Active Wheel technology has been around for years and showcased in a few concepts, but no commercial applications have been available yet. Production on the Volage is scheduled to being in 2012, so we’ll see if the technology finally makes it to us consumers.
> 
> Here are the specs:
> 
> Horsepower: 295
> Torque: 171 pound feet
> 0 - 60 mph: 5 seconds
> Top speed: 160 mph
> Distance per charge: 200 miles
> 
> Like the Tesla Roadster, this car also looks cool. No word yet if the price will be as steep.


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## K_OS

Mississauga said:


> That video is a crock of shyte! Anyone with less than half a brain will immediately determine the ridiculous comparison from the road test.
> 
> Next!


Please elaborate on why its a crock?

An M3 follows a Prius for 10 laps and actually used less gas, the test had nothing to do with performance or handling it simply showed that if people actually change there driving habits they can manage to use less gas. Instead people go out and spend money on something that they think will make them environmental gods when all they really have to do is change there driving habits and they will see the rewards in there wallets.

Laterz


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## K_OS

MacDoc said:


> Horsepower: 295
> Torque: 171 pound feet
> 0 - 60 mph: 5 seconds
> Top speed: 160 mph
> Distance per charge: 200 miles


Not bad the only thing that I would be concerned about is the 200 mile range but it looks good and the HP and torque are not too shabby at all.

Laterz


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## Mississauga

K_OS said:


> Please elaborate on why its a crock?
> 
> An M3 follows a Prius for 10 laps and actually used less gas, the test had nothing to do with performance or handling it simply showed that if people actually change there driving habits they can manage to use less gas. Instead people go out and spend money on something that they think will make them environmental gods when all they really have to do is change there driving habits and they will see the rewards in there wallets.
> 
> Laterz


Do I really have to explain? OK. It's a fairly well known fact hybrids are only truly "eco-friendly" when driven as if there were an egg under the accelerator. Stuffing the gas to the floor on a race course will obviously net VERY poor economy - taxes the gas engine to the maximum. In real world testing, the Prius makes any BMW a poor competitor in the mileage wars.

The comparison in your provided video link is simply absurd.


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## MacDoc

Now how about 10 laps of stop and go in traffic.....very different result.


( not that I'm a hybrid fan - only PHEV will really save money. )


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## K_OS

Mississauga said:


> Do I really have to explain? OK. It's a fairly well known fact hybrids are only truly "eco-friendly" when driven as if there were an egg under the accelerator. Stuffing the gas to the floor on a race course will obviously net VERY poor economy - taxes the gas engine to the maximum. In real world testing, the Prius makes any BMW a poor competitor in the mileage wars.
> 
> The comparison in your provided video link is simply absurd.


I still think the point of that test is valid and if the point of a hybrid is to drive it like grandma going to church on Sunday than no thanks I can have more fun driving my Mini and get better gas mileage to boot too.

Laterz


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## MacDoc




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## K_OS

MacDoc said:


>


That's all fine and dandy but please sit down and figure out how much all that tech will cost to implement in the average house and then throw in the price of the PHEV and once again you will probably figure out that pressing a bit less on the gas peddle will be better for your bank account.

Laterz


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## K_OS

As much as I'm not yet convinced that PHEVs are the way to go there is one that looks cool enough to sit in my driveway too bad that they had to remove the back seat to make room for the battery.



> BMW has finally unleashed some information and photos of the much anticipated MINI E set to debut next month at the LA Auto Show. For those who haven't been paying attention, late last spring BMW announced plans to build and lease a fleet of 500 battery powered MINIs starting sometime in 2009. The front wheels of the MINI E receive torque through a single speed gearbox from a 204 hp, 162 lb-ft electric motor. Those numbers are rather unusual for an electric drive system which usually has much more torque. Nonetheless, the MINI E can hustle to 62 mph in 8.5 seconds and, according to BMW, can cover about 150 miles on a full charge of its lithium ion battery pack.
> 
> Anyone who has driven a MINI knows that the back seat is for small kids or occasional use only. For the purposes of this electric version, that is no longer an issue as that area has been completely consumed by the battery pack. The pack itself has a capacity of 35 kWh and judging by the description the company has used a similar set up to the Tesla Roadster. Instead of larger cells specifically designed for automotive applications, this pack uses 5,088 cells arranged in 48 modules. As always, charging time depends on the current and voltage of the outlet the car is plugged into. MINI will be supplying a high current charging station with the cars that can be installed in the driver's garage to facilitate quicker charges, providing a full charge in 2.5 hours. The regenerative braking system can provide three-quarters of the braking requirements when running in urban stop and go driving. Aside from the battery pack replacing the rear seat and the yellow trim, the main change inside is a battery meter that replaces the tachometer in front of the driver. BMW will be leasing the 500 cars to commercial and private customers in California, New York and New Jersey starting early next year. They may eventually expand the program to Europe as well.


http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/10/p0047902-1280.jpg

Laterz


----------



## Adrian.

K_OS said:


> That's all fine and dandy but please sit down and figure out how much all that tech will cost to implement in the average house and then throw in the price of the PHEV and once again you will probably figure out that pressing a bit less on the gas peddle will be better for your bank account.
> 
> Laterz


Most of the electric cars coming out today (Optimal Energy, Lightening Automobiles etc) use three facet interface which is just industrial interface. Your electric stove would use three facet and so you would really just need a line taken from your breaker up to your garage. Not so big of a deal really.


----------



## MacDoc

> That's all fine and dandy but please sit down and figure out how much all that tech will cost to implement in the average house and then throw in the price of the PHEV and once again you will probably figure out that pressing a bit less on the gas peddle will be better for your bank account.


Not really.

Let's just take a round number. Once a week fillup of 80 litres at $1 a litre = $360 a month.

versus say daily charges of $3 for 60 km $120 a month.

Many small cars can be bought for $199 a month - savings are $240 a month.....just in fuel alone.

Add in some gov rebates ( low finance cost is the key to do this ) for PHEV and anyone driving short distances it's a no brainer.

You could scrap the old vehicle at $0 and still be ahead.

Everyone on the planet is doing that calculation and it's even better where fuel prices are higher ( tho cost per mile/km might be about the same ).
If govs put on carbon taxes - the incentive gets higher yet and of course there is moral suasion of going carbon neutral.

When self interest aligns with carbon neutral vehicles....it will come in a wave.

In terms of house energy - the gradient in savings is not nearly so steep so adoption is slower. BUT- the PHEV can also act as a storage facility for personal solar or wind - that synergy helps both.

The heavy duty chargers are only to allow fast charge - something not necessarily needed.

Now eventually the govs are going to get all gnarly about that lost tax flow and put on electronic tolls.

BUT - those tolls will apply to fossil vehicles too.


----------



## iJohnHenry

And governments are just going to roll-over and accept all the lost taxes on gas??

Dream on.


----------



## K_OS

Adrian. said:


> Most of the electric cars coming out today (Optimal Energy, Lightening Automobiles etc) use three facet interface which is just industrial interface. Your electric stove would use three facet and so you would really just need a line taken from your breaker up to your garage. Not so big of a deal really.


I understand that it would be easy to implement something that is coming out of your house, but the tech in that cartoon is using solar panels to feed the recharger, which would actually not work because most if not all solar panels feed 12v out to a charger which then charges a bank of battery's than the battery's feed a 12v to 120v-240v converter which would feed the car's charger, all that tech last time I looked into it was easily 5g's and that didn't include the car. The point of that cartoon at least from what I took I it from it was the party that the US would have when there dependance on oil would wean, of course the way I see it is that the electrical grid in NA is not yet ready for the kind of load that will be placed on it even if 10% of people convert to a plug in, and if we do need excess electrical production mothballed coal plants like Nanticoke will once again be pressed into service and negating allot of the good that the cartoon's setup would do.

Laterz


----------



## MacDoc

Most charging would be off hours.
Remember batteries do not charge in a huge rush of current.
Reality is not a cartoon - there are already people out there doing it pretty much as the cartoon indicates.

I don't know where you get the idea that charging must be 240 volt.



> A quick walk around shows that the gasoline filler neck is still on the driver’s side of the Prius, but now there’s a matching filler door on the passenger’s side as well. Pop this second filler door and you’re greeted with an electrical outlet that accepts Toyota’s plug-in cord. The cord is small and lightweight with an inline black box at the plug end. It easily stows in the rear of the car for charging top-offs if you have an outlet at your destination.* To charge, simply plug the car connector -- which has a handle somewhat like a gas nozzle -- into the Prius and the other end into a household outlet.* Toyota says a full charge will take 3-4 hours when plugged into a 110 volt outlet or 1-1 ½ hours from a 220 volt outlet.


Not very high tech is it.....










PHEVs do have fossil based engines as well.

Solar has no where near the cost savings gradient that PHEV do so adoption will be slower BUT there is a synergy with solar, PHEV and feeding back into the grid or even the home.

••••

Electronic tolls will be ( already are really ) needed to support road maintenance so it will be user pays.
There is no other method for covering road maintenance that makes any sense.

Local roads can be covered by municipal tax.


----------



## adagio

Talk of electric cars is great but I still haven't figured out where most folks are supposed to plug in. The one place where they make sense, the city, has very few options for people to charge their cars. The vast majority of city dwellers either park their cars on the street or in underground parking lots. You'd be breaking your neck tripping over extension cords. 

The only thing that makes sense is some kind of electric hybrid where the car can be charged without plugging in.


----------



## K_OS

MacDoc said:


> Reality is not a cartoon - there are already people out there doing it pretty much as the cartoon indicates.


NO reality is not a cartoon but how much is the cost of doing all this and please show me actual figures. One more thing have you asked who is going to maintain that plug in car once it does brake down I'm sure that independent mechanics will be happy to loose business and the manufacturers will be more than happy to rape you when you have a problem with your electric car.

Laterz


----------



## MacDoc

> I rolled my Toyota Yaris three times this morning after hitting a six-foot-high dirt embankment at highway speed. I crawled out with no more than a bump on my head, seat belt burn, and a massively stiff neck. So, for all you small car safety-doubters out there, I’ve now got personal experience to say otherwise.
> 
> Inevitably, whenever we post about small electric cars, funky three-wheelers, or any other small fuel-efficient vehicle here at Gas 2.0, we get typical responses along the lines of “It may get 60 mpg, but that thing’s a death trap,” or “It’s nice to drive electric, but would you trust that car to your family?”
> 
> After this morning’s shenanigans, I can unequivocally say “Yes. Yes I would trust my family to a small fuel-efficient car, and I’m miraculously alive and mostly uninjured… so no, it’s not a death trap.”
> 
> My Yaris got 40 mpg and weighed about a quarter of a Chevy Suburban. From the outside it may not have looked very substantial, but it sure saved me on fuel costs. And, until today, I would have grudgingly agreed that it may not be as safe as driving a behemoth like the Suburban.
> 
> But now that my life has stopped flashing before my eyes, and I’ve had a chance to think, it is simply amazing that I walked away from that crash barely bleeding. I mean, just look at the remnants of my car.
> 
> In fact, after today, I think I fared better in my Yaris than I would have in a Suburban land yacht. Imagine how many times I would have flipped in the Suburban and the force of impact that would have come along with crashing an 8600 pound car?
> 
> So, for everybody out there that’s using safety as an excuse to not go green, I must ask you to please take a look at that picture of my car and the wonder of how I walked away well enough to write this post the same day. Then try turning around and telling me that these upcoming small alternative cars aren’t safe simply because they’re small.
> 
> It’s more a matter of engineering, and, at least in Toyota’s case, those engineers are miracle-workers.


Are Tiny, Gas-Saving Cars Unsafe? Today Mine Saved My Life : Gas 2.0


----------



## K_OS

MacDoc said:


> Are Tiny, Gas-Saving Cars Unsafe? Today Mine Saved My Life : Gas 2.0


I don't know, my friend had an accident with his Toyota 4 Runner he hit a 2 year old Civic head on and the Civic is a total write off while his truck only suffered a popped ball joint which I helped him put back on and some minor body damage, the lady which was driving the Civic got injured bad enough that she was taken away in an ambulance. So might might not be right all the time but in my friends case he came away without a scratch and he thanks the 4Runner for being a big safe SUV.

Laterz


----------



## bgw

The energy environmental crisis is much more complicated then the cars we drive. Reducing the amount of energy our cars use and the pollution they produce will only solve a small portion of our problem. The real problem is urban design. We need to re-design our cities for public transit and walking. The electric car is just window dressing that will only perpetuate the other pollution and energy problems we have.


----------



## MacDoc

> We need to re-design our cities for public transit and walking. The electric car is just window dressing that will only perpetuate the other pollution and energy problems we have.


While I tend to agree there needs to be higher density for different reasons removing vehicle contributions has enormous impact and does NOT require major infrastructure changes which takes decades to implement.

Transport is a MAJOR contributor to GHG and that CAN be changed for personal transport with very little life style shift.

PHEV are very much self funding with gasoline prices so high.
People WANT the flexibility that personal transport enables and making it available GHG free WITH significant savings in fuel = a winner all around.

Puts people to work building the new vehicles....could not be a better time and progressive forward thinking nations are getting on with it......big time.


----------



## Adrian.

K_OS said:


> I don't know, my friend had an accident with his Toyota 4 Runner he hit a 2 year old Civic head on and the Civic is a total write off while his truck only suffered a popped ball joint which I helped him put back on and some minor body damage, the lady which was driving the Civic got injured bad enough that she was taken away in an ambulance. So might might not be right all the time but in my friends case he came away without a scratch and he thanks the 4Runner for being a big safe SUV.
> 
> Laterz


Until it rolls like a Banana!


It is all in the technology. Smart cars have taken the biggest beating for apparently not being safe or 'coffins on wheels' when they have better crash test ratings than most suv's and Dodge Durangos in particular.

They use the egg-shape cock pit design that super cars like Ferraris and Lambourghinis use since the whole body of supercars are fibre glass.

Go find videos on youtube of Smart cars smashing into cement walls.

Safe suv's is an oxy moron. They roll like bloody bananas everywhere.


----------



## bgw

Statistics indicate that SUV's are about 10% more dangerous then other vehicles. Manly because, as Adrian mentioned, they roll easily. One of the things that make them so dangerous is all the glass at such a height. I have driven them on a few occasions and they really feel unsafe. Brakes are too weak, and they handle like a super tanker. I'd much rather be in a smaller, nimbler vehicle.


----------



## MacGYVER

I'm on the fence of electric cars in this Province. I still prefer Toyota's method and that is their Hybrid vehicles that charge the battery inside the vehicle by not plugging it in, but by using the energy created by braking. Good on Toyota. So, the next time we have a major black out, you can still drive an electric car, you just won't need to plug it in .

It doesn't matter really what we do for vehicle technology, whether we put 1000 electric cars on the road to replace 1000 gas cars, we still have 1000 cars on the road. 

In major populated cities like Toronto, why the heck are there so many one person vehicles on the road headed to downtown Toronto or area for work each day? Those types of people should be made to take public transit or have to pay some sort of high surcharge for doing that. There should be no need for that. Car pool, take public transport, but you shouldn't have to see thousands and thousands of one person inside a vehicle on a Monday - Friday going to and from work in downtown Toronto. That is why cities like Toronto need to look at rapid transit mode, change their public transit infrastructure to make it happen. 

I seriously don't see Toronto changing their ways in the next 10 years. If I'm lucky, maybe by the year 2010, I can actually walk faster down the 401 to Toronto as all drivers are sitting around in traffic going nowhere due to too many people on the road. 

Just the other day again, as I was coming back from Toronto, the East bound traffic was so congested with just vehicles on the 401, that traffic was backed up all the way to Kitchener and passed Milton. No accident, that's just peak time traffic not moving at all. At that time, it will take you close to 3 hours to get from K-W to just the Toronto Airport area, let alone going to downtown Toronto. If that's what is meant by building electric vehicles, then go ahead, because you can then sit in complete silence while waiting to move an inch on the 401 due to congestion. 

I'm still waiting for the railway system to be cost effective and then I will take the train back and forth instead of driving. It could take them another 100 years though, before they realize a good thing.


----------



## MacDoc

> *Electric black cab project makes progress*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Londoners could be hailing the first battery-powered black cabs in early 2009
> Andrew Donoghue, BusinessGreen, 20 Oct 2008
> London taxi
> 
> Plans to launch a fleet of electric black cabs in London are gathering pace with further meetings between UK officials and the co-owners of the company that makes the capital's iconic taxis.
> 
> According to an article in the Financial Times, Chinese company Geely, which co-owns black-cab-maker Manganese Bronze, has been in talks with UK government officials to discuss the launch of electric taxis in London next year.
> 
> "One of our ideas is to convert London taxis [to electric propulsion]," Li Shufu, the company's chairman, told the Financial Times. "We are doing research on this project."
> 
> Matthew Cheyne, Manganese Bronze's international development director, told BusinessGreen.com that a partnership between his company and electric vehicle specialist Tanfield Group, announced in April, is progressing and that the first electric black cabs could be on London’s roads early next year.
> 
> "We have given Tanfield some gliders [engineless taxis], basically vehicles that they can start doing some work on, but it is very much in the early stages, " said Cheyne.
> According to information released in April the all-electric version of Manganese Bronze’s TX4 black cab – to be branded the TX4E – will have a top speed of 50mph and a range in excess of 100 miles on one battery charge.
> 
> Although there is not a specific date set yet for trials of the electric cabs, Cheyne confirmed that the companies were looking at early next year to introduce a fleet of ten prototype vehicles.
> 
> Given Geely's international reach the cabs may be deployed elsewhere in the world but London will offer a "good proving ground" for the technology, according to Cheyne, because of the intensity at which the fleet would be used and the potential infrastructure for recharging.
> 
> In June, London Mayor Boris Johnson invited manufacturers to put forward proposals for low-carbon cabs. "As well as significantly cutting carbon dioxide emissions, we're looking for taxis that are quieter and produce fewer air pollutants, which will be good news for anyone who spends time in London," Johnson said at the time.
> 
> Although the mayor reportedly discussed the electric cab project with Geely representatives while at this summer's Beijing Olympics, there does not appear to be a firm commitment from Transport for London (TfL), or any other authority, to actually purchase the electric cabs. "At the moment it is between us and Tanfield Electric. Logic would say that there is a benefit for Transport for London but at the moment it is us developing it," he said.
> 
> Relations between Manganese and TfL may have been strained after 12 TX4 cabs caught fire in September. Manganese was forced to launch a product recall at a cost of around £4m.
> 
> Once developed, the TX4E taxi will be powered by a Tanfield electric drive train and a lithium-iron-phosphate battery pack. Based on current electricity prices, the companies estimate the TX4E will cost less than 4p per mile to run but is likely to have a higher initial purchase price than the diesel-powered TX4.
> 
> A spokesperson for TfL said: "The Public Carriage Office (PCO) is keen to work with motor manufacturers to introduce taxis to London with lower fuel consumption and carbon dioxide emissions, including electrically powered vehicles. Any manufacturer, existing or prospective, should bear in mind that vehicles must meet the London conditions of fitness."


Electric black cab project makes progress - 20 Oct 2008 - BusinessGreen

Wave is building.


----------



## Adrian.

> Mexico City has a law: no public taxis can be older than 10 years. If they are, they must be replaced.
> 
> For Señor Victor Juarez G. and his associates in the world's second largest city, that presents them with an opportunity. If -- and that's a big IF -- all the licensed and "gypsy" (unlicensed) cab operators in the city comply with the edict, in 2008 some 30,000 taxis -- many of them antiquated VW Beetles -- will have to be retired.
> 
> Now Marcelo Ebrard, Mexico City's would-be 'green' mayor, is mandating that from the first 30,000, ten percent of these replacements will be hybrids (only the Honda Civic Hybrid is sold in Mexico), 10 percent will be fueled by compressed natural gas and 10% will be battery-powered electric cars.
> 
> In reality, however, Juarez G. doesn't believe any hybrids will be bought because they cost nearly $8,000 more in Mexico than the regular gas version. Cab operators won't be able to justify the added cost, which opens up the possibility for the introduction of more electric versions.
> 
> Electric taxis aren't a new idea. Some of the very first commercial motor vehicles in history where electric taxi cabs that operated in Philadelphia and New York in the 1890s.
> 
> More than a century later, a battery electric taxi was tested in New York City with discouraging results [NYC Electric Taxi Can't Hack It]. The converted Chrysler PT Cruiser was equipped with Kokam lithium polymer batteries, which should have been up to the challenge, leading to speculation that either the technology employed was faulty or the parties involved didn't want the experiment to succeed... or maybe both.
> 
> Regardless of the reasons, Juarez G. is convinced that modern electric taxis -- properly done -- can be successful in Mexico City where the average cabby drives about 200 km (107 mi) per day and cold winter weather isn't as much of a challenge. Working in cooperation with the RUTAS UNIDAS association of bus and cab operators, his colleagues at Electro Autos Eficaces de Mexico (EAE) -- led by Mr. Luis Pérez Quintana -- and Azure Dynamics (AZD) -- headed by their new CEO Scott Harrison -- plunged into the development of a Nissan Sentra taxi conversion powered by an AZD 20kW AC Direct Drive and Kokam energy packs.
> 
> 
> 
> Called eLECTROTAXI ®, it is similar to the one found on their first conversion project, Numero Uno, which is now in Tampa, Florida for demonstrations to local officials.



EVWORLD FEATURE: Mexico City's ElectroTAXI RevoluciÃ³n: Electric Car | Taxi Cabs | Marcelo Ebrard



Electric taxis have been in development for the last 10-15 years in Mexico city. With about 25 million people living in one city that is in high altitude pollution is a massive problem.

They are still not fully implemented but from billboards around the city, the city is advertising they have about 800 on the road right now and are gradually introducing more until all the taxis are electric. 

I just takes vision, money and the real need for it to happen.


I have been driven around in a couple electric ones before in the city and they are fine. I have seen a fully electric Honda Civic and the modified Sentras before.


----------



## MacDoc

The main issue is the battery pack range - the rest is basic engineering and sufficient incentive.

One more reason a carbon tax is needed. Polluter pays.


----------



## K_OS

MacGYVER said:


> In major populated cities like Toronto, why the heck are there so many one person vehicles on the road headed to downtown Toronto or area for work each day? Those types of people should be made to take public transit or have to pay some sort of high surcharge for doing that. There should be no need for that. Car pool, take public transport, but you shouldn't have to see thousands and thousands of one person inside a vehicle on a Monday - Friday going to and from work in downtown Toronto. That is why cities like Toronto need to look at rapid transit mode, change their public transit infrastructure to make it happen.


I'm one of these people and what you don't know is that I use my SUV for work, it might look like there is one person in the SUV at 9am but at 8am there were 2 people in there when I dropped off my wife at work which saves her from taking a 2 hour TTC ride from hell. I see plenty of GM Yukon's on the road but I don't judge because I don't know what there circumstances are for owning such a large vehicle. Also we shouldn't make anybody do anything that they don't want to we should have choices and we make those choices based on our needs. Toronto should look at operating the TTC like a real business and stop asking the provincial or federal governments for handouts every time they need money to balance there budget, if the TTC needs money they should raise prices or find other ways to manage there money problems(ie: stand up to unions, get buses to run on time), in my business if my car needs repairs I pay for it and raise the prices a bit and pay for the repairs over time I don't go crying to the federal government.

Laterz


----------



## Adrian.

K_OS said:


> I'm one of these people and what you don't know is that I use my SUV for work, it might look like there is one person in the SUV at 9am but at 8am there were 2 people in there when I dropped off my wife at work which saves her from taking a 2 hour TTC ride from hell. I see plenty of GM Yukon's on the road but I don't judge because I don't know what there circumstances are for owning such a large vehicle. Also we shouldn't make anybody do anything that they don't want to we should have choices and we make those choices based on our needs. Toronto should look at operating the TTC like a real business and stop asking the provincial or federal governments for handouts every time they need money to balance there budget, if the TTC needs money they should raise prices or find other ways to manage there money problems(ie: stand up to unions, get buses to run on time), in my business if my car needs repairs I pay for it and raise the prices a bit and pay for the repairs over time I don't go crying to the federal government.
> 
> Laterz



What do you need a GMC Yukon for? It holds 5 people as most 4 cylinder cars do. The Xl's hold "9" but 7 comfortably and so does a mini van and when in the hell was the last time anyone ever saw someone in a Subruban, Yukon XL or an Escalade ESV with seven people in it?

Drive a mini van...

99.9% of the Yukons et al. I have ever seen on the road do not have hitches so don't bring that they have to haul their gas guzzling boats around.


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## eMacMan

MacDoc said:


> The main issue is the battery pack range - the rest is basic engineering and sufficient incentive.
> 
> One more reason a carbon tax is needed. Polluter pays.


The way a carbon tax works is to make things so much more expensive that people change their lifestyles. Of course the people that get hurt the worst are the ones that cannot afford to replace their vehicles or improve the insulation in their homes and spend most of their discretionary income on food. 

The Carbon Tax and flawed English cost Dion the election. Things do need to change but this one was a very bad idea right from the get-go.


----------



## K_OS

Adrian. said:


> What do you need a GMC Yukon for? It holds 5 people as most 4 cylinder cars do. The Xl's hold "9" but 7 comfortably and so does a mini van and when in the hell was the last time anyone ever saw someone in a Subruban, Yukon XL or an Escalade ESV with seven people in it?
> 
> Drive a mini van...
> 
> 99.9% of the Yukons et al. I have ever seen on the road do not have hitches so don't bring that they have to haul their gas guzzling boats around.


MY SUV has seating for 5 but most of the time that I haul people it's just 2 people and my dog, but I do haul allot of other stuff around which I have to fold the rear seats down for.

Laterz


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## MacDoc

Just a wave of EV solutions.......



> *Top eight electric scooters*
> 
> * Story Highlights
> * Electric scooters are one of the most popular buys of 2008
> * Go-Ped ESR 750's aircraft quality Chromyl frame will hold up to 400 pounds
> * Enertia software enables the rider to download info about their driving habits
> * Piaggio plans to release three-wheeled hybrid based on Vespa
> 
> By Craig Howie
> 
> (AOL Autos) -- Maybe you want to save the planet. Maybe you want to save a little more from your pocketbook each month.
> The EVT R 20 is classic Italian vintage and comes in just three colors: black, red and silver.
> 
> The EVT R 20 is classic Italian vintage and comes in just three colors: black, red and silver.
> 
> Or maybe you just spent a romantic break in Paris or Rome and loved how good those stylish Europeans looked zipping about congested streets on their scooters.
> 
> Now, the electric variants of those once quirky, funny looking scooters have become one of the most popular buys of 2008, providing a largely hassle-free and cheap form of urban or commuting transport for many looking to minimize their carbon footprint and gas costs.
> 
> We've chosen eight popular electric scooter models to see what kind of fit they would be for you. So what are you waiting for? Jump on!
> 
> The hipster: Go-Ped ESR 750
> MSRP: $999
> 
> The original step-on lo-fi motor scooter has been improved once again this year with a new electric motor that's capable of reaching a top speed of over 20mph. It uses four 12 volt SLA (sealed lead acid) batteries. Turbo mode allows faster travel in a five-mile range, which the economy setting allows eight miles.
> 
> It weighs 52 pounds and its aircraft quality Chromyl frame will hold up to 400 pounds. Its sister model, the Hoverboard, tips its hat to 'Back to the Future' with the board's retro yet futuristic appeal and raised independent suspension, while its cousin, the Trail Ripper 46, boasts a similarly cantilevered frame and rugged tires to smooth out the bumps and dips. A full recharge costs just 10 cents.
> 
> The eco-warrior: eGO Cycle 2 Classic
> MSRP: $1,399
> 
> This one's a perfect, stylish fit for an ecologically minded rider, though it's also great for RV or camping trips. The motor produces 2hp and is powered by 24 volt batteries. It's sturdy at 140 pounds and will carry a combined 250 pounds in rider and cargo weight.
> 
> Range is good at 25 miles and it will hit 18 mph at the top end. Large wheels at 20-inches make this one a pretty utilitarian ride. Recharge time is about six hours while running costs are about eight cents a mile.
> 
> Range includes the LX and silky SE, which comes with more luxurious trim including directional signals, speedometer and horn. Frame has 10-year warranty and batteries are covered for six months.
> 
> The highway patrol: Vectrix
> MSRP: $9,395
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rhode Island police officers are putting these to the test in a three-month pilot program announced in July -- officers like them for their ability to maintain mobility and personal contact with residents.
> 
> This more substantial highway-legal scooter, with dimensions more akin to a regular full-size motorbike, will take about seven seconds to top out at 62 mph.* Remarkably, it costs just one cent per mile to operate.*
> 
> It takes between three and five hours to charge to its maximum range, which is 68 miles. It uses nickel-metal-hydride batteries -- common in hybrid autos -- which benefit from regenerative braking. Battery replacement cost is $3,000 but Vectrix says the battery will last 10 years or 1,500 charges. Two-year warranty covers entire bike for parts and labor.


There are more

Top eight electric scooters - CNN.com


----------



## Adrian.

K_OS said:


> MY SUV has seating for 5 but most of the time that I haul people it's just 2 people and my dog, but I do haul allot of other stuff around which I have to fold the rear seats down for.
> 
> Laterz



I mean to say that people who have SUVs usually do not need the v8 or large v6 engine under the hood. They tend to seat as many people as a passenger car. Would a nice Subaru station wagon not have worked better for your needs and you could have taken a 4 cyl. engine?


----------



## SINC

Adrian. said:


> I mean to say that people who have SUVs usually do not need the v8 or large v6 engine under the hood. They tend to seat as many people as a passenger car. Would a nice Subaru station wagon not have worked better for your needs and you could have taken a 4 cyl. engine?


Don't paint all SUVs with the same brush.

The "large" V-6 engine in my Suzuki Grand Vitara Limited is a whopping 2 litres. About the size of the milk carton in your fridge.


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## MacDoc

Also with varying loads there is no guarantee the 4 cylinder will be any more fuel efficient than a 6.
The big key is to have available short trip EVs - there is still a need for bigger load vehicles.
I see the main sales as a second "about town" vehicle while the bigger fossil fueled stay parked a lot more.

Damn insurance companies are a pain tho - I can only drive one vehicle at a time.


----------



## Max

I'm sure it's been noted in here before, like, say, a million times - but the insurance business is simply legalized extortion. Insurance scammers in cahoots with the gubbmint to ensure that we are legally _forced_ to carry insurance, no matter what price it's manipulated by these cozy partners in collusion.


----------



## K_OS

Adrian. said:


> I mean to say that people who have SUVs usually do not need the v8 or large v6 engine under the hood. They tend to seat as many people as a passenger car. Would a nice Subaru station wagon not have worked better for your needs and you could have taken a 4 cyl. engine?


The only Subaru that I'm considering to purchase in the Future is the WRX STi:love2:, at the time I couldn't afford a brand new SUV but rest assured that I do light towing with the current one and my SUV has seen the odd offroad adventure as well and to boot it doesn't have a big V6 so it's better on gas than most of the giant Yukon and Explorer's that are out there. I'll be the 1st to admit tough is that I could use a bigger truck but I am waiting to see if GM comes out with a diesel Hummer H3.

Laterz


----------



## Adrian.

MacDoc said:


> Also with varying loads there is no guarantee the 4 cylinder will be any more fuel efficient than a 6.
> The big key is to have available short trip EVs - there is still a need for bigger load vehicles.
> I see the main sales as a second "about town" vehicle while the bigger fossil fueled stay parked a lot more.
> 
> Damn insurance companies are a pain tho - I can only drive one vehicle at a time.


You are most correct. A horrible violator of this is Mazda with the CX-7 'crossover'. It has a 4 cyl. but a turbo running at 12 psi making about 270 horse. The 4 cyl. feature is highly misleading and the thing is thirsty for premium to booot!


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## Niteshooter

Adrian. said:


> What do you need a GMC Yukon for? It holds 5 people as most 4 cylinder cars do. The Xl's hold "9" but 7 comfortably and so does a mini van and when in the hell was the last time anyone ever saw someone in a Subruban, Yukon XL or an Escalade ESV with seven people in it?
> 
> Drive a mini van...
> 
> 99.9% of the Yukons et al. I have ever seen on the road do not have hitches so don't bring that they have to haul their gas guzzling boats around.


Well..... some 4 cyl cars would be so underpowered that they would become less economical to run because you would have to keep you foot in it more often to maintain highway speeds. I lived through that with a 4 cyl Nissan 4x4 pickup, on paper it seemed like a great idea but at 70 mph on the 401 I would nearly have it floored so gas milage was dreadful. 

When Ford came out with the Explorer I ordered one and it was considerably better on gas with it's 6 cyl engine and 5 spd manual tranny. I required a vehicle with 4-5 passenger capacity, 4WD, and light trailer towing duty.

As for V8 vs V6 it's going to depend a lot on what your needs are, if you are towning trailers that extra horsepower and torque can make a huge difference or if you carry a heavy load. Probably why the OPP road sgts and Toronto Ambulance supervisors run them now since they carry a pretty heavy load of support gear. Also some of those big truck based SUV's use full ladder chassis underneath vs unibody construction which is not as rugged.

And finally_ your_ size might matter..... a co worker reminded me of this the other night when we were comparing my gas costs vs his pickup truck. He said sure I can save a pile of $$$ driving a car like yours but you see how well I fit in it..... he was right I don't think he could fit comfortably behind the wheel of my car.

So I don't think it's quite as cut and dried as saying 4 cylinders are better than 6 or 8 for that matter.


----------



## Adrian.

Niteshooter said:


> Well..... some 4 cyl cars would be so underpowered that they would become less economical to run because you would have to keep you foot in it more often to maintain highway speeds. I lived through that with a 4 cyl Nissan 4x4 pickup, on paper it seemed like a great idea but at 70 mph on the 401 I would nearly have it floored so gas milage was dreadful.
> 
> When Ford came out with the Explorer I ordered one and it was considerably better on gas with it's 6 cyl engine and 5 spd manual tranny. I required a vehicle with 4-5 passenger capacity, 4WD, and light trailer towing duty.
> 
> As for V8 vs V6 it's going to depend a lot on what your needs are, if you are towning trailers that extra horsepower and torque can make a huge difference or if you carry a heavy load. Probably why the OPP road sgts and Toronto Ambulance supervisors run them now since they carry a pretty heavy load of support gear. Also some of those big truck based SUV's use full ladder chassis underneath vs unibody construction which is not as rugged.
> 
> And finally_ your_ size might matter..... a co worker reminded me of this the other night when we were comparing my gas costs vs his pickup truck. He said sure I can save a pile of $$$ driving a car like yours but you see how well I fit in it..... he was right I don't think he could fit comfortably behind the wheel of my car.
> 
> So I don't think it's quite as cut and dried as saying 4 cylinders are better than 6 or 8 for that matter.


I agree 100% with what you are saying. Nonetheless, it does not negate the fact that far too many people are driving SUVs like Yukons and Toyota Sequoias because they want to. I think to have to drive a car like that you should, morally, have some good reason to. Indeed, if you are 6.5' tall and 350 pounds a Toyota Yaris is not going to cut it, but buying an 8 cylinder Yukon Denali does not justify your needs.

I applaud you for purchasing a 6 cylinder car because you felt you needed a bigger car but an 8 Cyl. was far too large.

What really bugs me I suppose I am saying is those huge v8 trucks that seat five people, have no hitch and some guy in a suit is driving it. He clearly has no need for such a massive car.


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## MacDoc

100 years of engineering is no particular excuse - they missed this. ( I tend to agree with you which is why the title of the post )



> *Truckers Choose Hydrogen Power*
> Stephen Leahy Email 11.15.05
> 
> Hundreds of semitrailer trucks zipping along North American highways are now powered in part by hydrogen. These 18-wheelers make hydrogen as they go, eliminating the need for high-pressure, cryogenic storage tanks or hydrogen filling stations, which, by the way, don't yet exist.
> 
> These truckers aren't just do-gooders. They like Canadian Hydrogen Energy's Hydrogen Fuel Injection, or HFI, system because it lets them save fuel, get more horsepower and, as a bonus, cause less pollution.
> 
> "We're saving $700 a month per truck on fuel," said Sherwin Fast, president of Great Plains Trucking in Salina, Kansas. The company tried the HFI system on four trucks and has ordered 25 more.
> 
> "Drivers like the increased power and noticed there is a lot less black smoke coming out of the stacks," said Fast.
> 
> HFI is a bolt-on, aftermarket part that injects small amounts of hydrogen into the engine air intake, said Canadian Hydrogen Energy's Steve Gilchrist. Fuel efficiency and horsepower are improved because hydrogen burns faster and hotter than diesel, dramatically boosting combustion efficiency.
> 
> "You get more work from the same amount of fuel," said Gilchrist.
> 
> This is not a new idea. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory at the California Institute of Technology published research on the uses of hydrogen as a combustion-enhancing agent in the early 1970s. But the ability to make hydrogen on the go is novel.
> 
> The sticking point for hydrogen has always been getting it. Unlike crude oil, natural gas, wind or solar energy, hydrogen doesn't exist freely in nature. It costs $5 a gallon to make hydrogen from natural gas.
> 
> But the HFI system uses electricity from an engine's alternator to power the electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen as needed from small amounts of distilled water.
> 
> "That's a big advantage and a bit of a novelty," said Venki Raman, an expert on hydrogen-energy applications who started Protium Energy Technologies.
> 
> HFI's manufacturer guarantees 10 percent fuel savings, which likely won't interest car companies or consumers, Raman said. But a reduction of pollution emissions could spur broader use.
> 
> Trucks with the HFI system produce half the amount of particulates -- microscopic, unburned bits of diesel. The system also reduces nitrogen-oxide emissions, which are major contributors to harmful air pollution, by up to 14 percent, according to Canada's Environmental Technology Verification Program.


Truckers Choose Hydrogen Power

Lots more current stuff here....

Hydrogen Gas Savers | Hydrogen Cars and Vehicles

••••

Has anyone considered that perhaps this merely acts a restrictor reducing horsepower and gaining fuel mileage via that devious route.


----------



## MacDoc

evMini gets an early jump.



> Wanna get your hands on an all-electric Mini?
> 500 to be leased next year, but only in 3 states and at $850 a month
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Each Mini E will have a large electric plug logo on the roof and its serial number showing on the side front panel._
> 
> BMW is jumping into — OK it's actually more like testing — the market for all-electric vehicles with its Mini brand, announcing a pilot project to lease 500 completely electric Minis in California, New Jersey and New York.
> 
> "By introducing the Mini E, the BMW Group is underscoring the resolve with which it works towards reducing energy consumption and emissions in road traffic," the company said in a statement ahead of the car's debut at the Los Angeles Auto Show on Nov. 19-20.
> 
> The specs aren't bad: a lithium-ion battery range of 150 miles, a top speed of 95 mph and 0-60 mph in 8.5 seconds.


more here All-electric Mini cars to be leased - Green Machines - MSNBC.com

I hope $50 oil and a slow economy does not derail EV again


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## Adrian.

That's great about the trucks!


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## MacDoc

Lots more here from DIY instructions to $10k conversions for truckers......and lots in between.
Hydrogen Generators for Cars and Trucks


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## MacDoc

Pretty nice feature set



> *Zero Emission Motors Unveils Volt Electric Scooter*
> 
> Posted on October 25th, 2008 by Sebastian Schepis in Electric Scooters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad urban, suburban scoot about for $1500
> 
> Volt electric scooter
> Zero Emission Motors’ Volt electric scooter
> 
> If you’re looking for an inexpensive electric scooter tailor-made for city driving, then the new Volt electric scooter from Zero Emission Motors might be just the ticket for you. The new Volt electric scooter (named just like the newly-announced electric car, but unlike the car, available today) is a new electric scooter just released by our friends over at Zero Emission Motors - we got the opportunity to meet Adam Maoz, president of the company, a couple of weeks back at the Kick Gas festival in San Diego, and got to see the Volt in person.
> 
> The Volt electric scooter is a mid-range electric scooter product that straddles the gap between low-power electric scooters (< 1000W) and higher-power, freeway-legal scooters such as the Vectrix.
> 
> The Volt electric scooter is driven by a 1500 watt / 48 Volt motor and can propel you at speeds up to 30 mph for up to 30 miles per charge. We like the 1500 Watt motor because it provides enough power to get you up hills without slowing down too much, and will also provide good acceleration when you need it.
> 
> Volt electric scooter
> Details on the Volt electric scooter
> 
> The Volt electric scooter features all the trimmings you would expect from a scooter in this range - mirrors, headlights, taillights, blinkers and brake lights, keyed start, a horn, and an under-seat storage compartment and glove box. An odometer is included to let you know how far you’ve traveled, and a speedometer is also provided. A battery indicator is also provided to let you know how much charge you have left. The battery pack is lead-acid, and takes about 8 hours or so to fully charge using the included battery charger, which you can plug in to any wall outlet. *It costs about $0.10 for a full charge, which means $10 of electricity will get you about 3000 miles worth of travel. Try that with gasoline.*
> 
> The Volt is capable of seating up to two people at a time - its weight limit is 500 lbs. And at $1,495 plus $150 shipping, we think this e-scooter gives a you lot for the price. *The Volt electric scooter is available today from Zero Emission Motors*.


Now about the insurance companies


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## Adrian.

Do electric scooters require insurance? Gas scooters under 50cc do not as far as I know.


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## MacDoc

That's up in the air in Ontario and yes gas scooters require insurance - the only exemption now are eBikes with electric assist and they must have pedals.

For a young person to get a scooter they are looking at $840 a year in Ontario which drops to about $580 after taking a $300 safety course.

Then 3 years of absolutely spotless driving gets into adult driver rates which still are not cheap......$550 for my 550 scooter.


----------



## MacDoc

> *Why China May Save The Electric Car*
> 
> William Pentland, 10.27.08, 3:50 PM ET
> 
> The news wasn't all bad for General Motors on Tuesday.
> 
> Amid talk of bankruptcy and a forced merger with failing Chrysler, GM (nyse: GM - news - people ) introduced a new model of its Chevrolet Equinox in Beijing that runs on hydrogen, making the beleaguered automaker the most recent company to take a big bet on the budding electric vehicle (EV) market in China.
> 
> GM sees China as being among the first markets and production sites for alternative propulsion systems and will continue working to advance its strategy of "in China, with China, for China" to help the country develop diverse automotive energy solutions and commercialize such energy solutions, David S. Chen, vice president of GM China Group, said last week.
> 
> They're not alone. Recession or no recession, Asia's emerging economies will be buying a massive number of automobiles in coming decades. Odds are, the lion's share of them will run at least partially on electricity. At least that's what investors and manufacturers, from GM to Warren Buffett, think.
> 
> In 2006, China had about 160 million motor vehicles. By 2050, it will have nearly 700 million, or almost three times the number of registered vehicles currently in the U.S. If China's vehicle fleet grows to these anticipated sizes with today's fuel efficiency and emissions standards, China will need roughly 20 million barrels of oil per day to fuel its transportation sector, which in turn will emit about 3 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide every year.
> 
> "Considering the rapid depletion of the world's oil reserve, the heightened global interest in addressing greenhouse gas emissions and the geopolitical complications of global oil supply and demand," a report by the U.S. Department of Energy concluded. "The unmanaged vehicle growth and limited improvements in vehicle fuel efficiency will lead to an unsustainable and unstable transportation system in China."
> 
> In early 2007, China launched the so-called "863 Initiative," which initiated multiple electric vehicle research and development projects by universities, research institutes and companies. In August, China said it would begin developing a large-scale demonstration project in 10 or more cities to put at least 1,000 hybrid, fuel-cell and all-electric vehicles on the road in each of those cities and provide the necessary infrastructure for the project. The government is also providing funds for the construction of a nationwide network of charging stations. Before the end of the year, China's government will likely finalize regulations needed to begin large scale EV manufacturing.


Why China May Save The Electric Car - Forbes.com


----------



## EvanPitts

Looks like all of the talk about the Chevy Volt is just hype. They had a commercial on TV with the big announcement, but if you read the fine print, it says that it will not be released until 2010 at the earliest. Just another GM Vapourcar, and now that gas prices are below the $1 mark, it's time for GM to crank out the fifty year old giant gas guzzling V-8 land crushers once again. The Volt will soon be forgotten, just like all of the other amazing cars we were supposed to buy over the years, like the EV1 and the PNGV stuff...


----------



## MacDoc

> Transport Experts Spark Global Electric Car Industry
> LONDON, UK, October 27, 2008 (ENS) - Cars around the world will one day be propelled by electric motors, transportation expert Daniel Sperling told a meeting of international transportation experts and policymakers in London today.
> 
> Sperling said the transformation of automobiles and the entire automotive industry has begun with gasoline-electric hybrids, and will continue in the next decades with the wide adoption of plug-in electric hybrids, battery-only electric cars, and fuel cell electric vehicles.
> 
> Director of the University of California Davis Institute of Transportation Studies, Sperling was the keynote speaker at the first meeting of its kind, where industry experts and government officials are strategizing on how to jumpstart the mass market production of low carbon and electric vehicles.
> 
> British Prime Minister Gordon Brown called for the conference after discussions about transportation energy reform this summer at the Jeddah International Energy Conference in Saudi Arabia, the G8 Summit in Tokyo, and the British International Motor show in London.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Manufactured in Canada, the Zenn electric car is displayed at the Linden Hills Co-op in Minneapolis, Minnesota. (Photo courtesy Linden Hills Co-op)*
> 
> "I am delighted that the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, has shown such leadership by taking this first critical step forward in the UK," said Sperling. "He is to be commended in calling this important international meeting and setting the ball rolling for a low carbon vehicle future for the UK."
> 
> The two-day conference is hosted by the United Kingdom's Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform.
> 
> New initiatives to put Britain at the forefront of a green motoring revolution by encouraging a mass market in electric and hybrid cars have been announced today.
> 
> With the potential to create up to 10,000 new British jobs and help preserve many thousands more, the electric car push comes as part of wider plans by the Brown Government to make the most of the low carbon economy, with estimates that around a million green jobs could be generated by 2030.
> 
> Fulfilling the prime minister's pledge this summer to speed up the delivery of low carbon and electric vehicles for ordinary motorists, experts from across the globe are gathered in Whitehall today to examine how to turn this into a reality.
> 
> At the meeting, Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon set out the government's next steps to deliver a £100 million commitment to accelerate the emergence of greener vehicles.


So nations around the planet are gearing up their industrial base for EV and Green- what is Flaherty worried about ......$60 oil impacting his dear oil patch.....what a loser.


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## iJohnHenry

Politicians hate change.

It scares them.


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## Max

Strange as it may seem, the same thing could be said of their constituents.

As long as we're referencing generalizations, anyone with a vested interest in the status quo is bound to be reluctant to embrace change.


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## MacDoc

> *Electric production car just keeps on going*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test drive
> YouTube - Popular Mechanics Aptera Typ-1e Testdrive
> 
> * 25 November 2008
> 
> Electric vehicles are all the rage, but few have pushed the design envelope as far as the Aptera Typ-1, which hits the streets of California in December. Aptera Motors claims that its vehicle can travel up to 190 kilometres on a single charge, aided by roof-mounted solar cells. The vehicle, which is officially classified as a motorbike, will sell for $27,000. A petrol/electric hybrid version with a longer range is due to be launched in 2009 for $30,000.


:clap:


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## Dr.G.

What about ZENN Motor Company in PQ???


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## MacDoc

Follow the VC money....



> *Hawaii Endorses Plan for Electric Cars*
> Jonas Pryner Andersen/Polfoto, via Associated Press
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The entrepreneur Shai Agassi, right, met with Anders Eldrup, center, a Danish energy executive, in Copenhagen last March._
> 
> Published: December 2, 2008
> 
> SAN FRANCISCO — The State of Hawaii and the Hawaiian Electric Company on Tuesday endorsed an effort to build an alternative transportation system based on electric vehicles with swappable batteries and an “intelligent” battery recharging network.
> 
> The plan, the brainchild of the former Silicon Valley software executive Shai Agassi, is an effort to overcome the major hurdles to electric cars — slow battery recharging and limited availability.
> 
> By using existing electric car technologies, coupled with an Internet-connected web of tens of thousands of recharging stations, he thinks his company, Better Place L.L.C. of Palo Alto, Calif., will make all-electric vehicles feasible.
> 
> Mr. Agassi has succeeded in assembling a growing consortium of national governments, regional planning organizations and one major car company. Tuesday’s announcement follows earlier endorsements from Israel, Denmark, Australia, Renault-Nissan and a coalition of Northern California localities supporting the idea leading to the deployment of an electric vehicle with a range of greater than 100 miles, beginning at the end of 2010 in Israel. The company plans test deployments of vehicles in 2009 and broad commercial sales in 2012.
> 
> Mr. Agassi has raised $200 million in private financing for his idea. In October, he obtained a commitment from the Macquarie Capital Group to raise an additional $1 billion for an Australian project.
> 
> On Tuesday, he said that he was optimistic about his project despite the dismal investment and credit markets because his network could provide investors with an annuity. Users of his recharging network would subscribe to the service, paying for access and for the miles they drive.
> 
> Given the downturn in the mortgage market, he said that investors are looking for new classes of assets that will provide dependable revenue streams over many years. “I believe the new asset class is batteries,” he said. “When you have a driver in a car using a battery, nobody is going to cut their subscription and stop driving.”
> 
> Mr. Agassi has argued that even if oil prices continued to decline, his electric recharging network — which ideally would use renewable energy sources like solar and wind — could provide competitively priced energy for a new class of vehicles.
> 
> He supposes that his network idea will be appropriate first for “island” economies that typically have significantly higher energy costs, and then will become more cost-competitive as it is scaled up.
> 
> “We always knew Hawaii would be the perfect model,” he said in a telephone interview. “The typical driving plan is low and leisurely, and people are smiling.”
> 
> Hawaii is a relatively small market with high energy costs. The state has about 1.2 million cars and replaces 70,000 to 120,000 vehicles annually.
> 
> Drivers on the islands also rarely make trips of more than 100 miles, meaning there will be less need for his proposed battery recharging stations. Part of Mr. Agassi’s model depends on quick-change service stations to swap batteries for drivers who need to use their cars before they have completely recharged their batteries.
> 
> Peter Rosegg, a spokesman for the Hawaiian Electric Company, said that Better Place would become a major customer for electricity and was also planning to invest in renewable energy sources that would be connected to the electric grid.
> 
> “It’s going to be a nonexclusive agreement, but so far they’re the only one that has shown up,” Mr. Rosegg said.
> 
> In late November, the mayors of San Francisco and other major Bay Area cities endorsed the Better Place network to help create an electric recharging network by 2012. The company estimates that it will cost $1 billion to build a charging network in the Bay Area that may create as many as half a million charging stations.
> 
> Despite challenges, the Better Place model is promising, said Daniel M. Kammen, a professor in the Energy and Resources Group at the University of California, Berkeley. It could appeal to owners of fleets of vehicles and to early adopter customers who are willing to work through the difficulties that will inevitably accompany a new transportation system. “It has a lot of promising features,” he said.


Hawaii Endorses Plan for Electric Cars - NYTimes.com


----------



## MacDoc

Economy #2 is on board..... :clap: 



> *Japan Moves to Become Electric Vehicle Testing Ground*
> By Chuck Squatriglia December 09, 2008 | 6:42:29 PMCategories: Electric Vehicles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Japan wants to make recharging electric cars as easy as filling a gas tank. The country is hosting the EV evangelists from electric-vehicle startup Better Place, encouraging them to build battery-exchange stations that might bring cars with cords into the mainstream.
> The California company joins Subaru and Mitsubishi in helping the Japanese government get on the road toward toward its goal: half of all cars sold by 2020 will be electric. The pilot program announced Tuesday will allow consumers to swap depleted batteries for fresh ones easily when they don't have time to plug in. Limited to municipal fleets, the program is the first step toward electrifying Japan's vehicle fleet.
> "Better Place is honored to participate in this groundbreaking program in a country with so much auto-manufacturing expertise," said Shai Agassi, the entrepreneur behind the venture. "Japan is moving one step closer to the next-generation, Car 2.0 model of electric cars fueled by renewable energy."
> The deal comes one week after Hawaii said it will work with Better Place to roll out as many as 100,000 EV charging spots by 2012. Better Place demonstrated the technology for the first time Monday in Israel, and the first battery exchange stations could appear in Japan early next year.
> Japan joins Australia, Israel, Denmark, Hawaii and several Northern California locations in signing on with Better Place, which aims to revolutionize how we all get around. In a nutshell, Agassi's idea is to bring the cellphone business model to the EV industry using a concept he calls the Electric Recharge Grid Operator.
> 
> The plan calls for building a network of "smart" charging spots. Drivers can plug in anywhere, anytime, and pay for it through a subscription much like a cell plan. They'd pay for unlimited miles or a fixed number of miles, or opt to pay as they go. When customers can't wait to charge up, they can go to automated battery exchange stations where depleted batteries are swapped for fresh ones in about the time it takes to fill a tank with gas. It wouldn't cost a cent because although customers would own the cars, the ERGO would own the batteries.
> 
> Israel was the first to sign on to the idea, and Better Place officials were in Tel Aviv Monday to demonstrate how the public charging stations will work. Each is about 3 feet tall and can handle two cars simultaneously. "This is proof of concept," Moshe Kaplinsky, chief executive of Better Place Israel, said of the 17 charging spots unveiled in the parking lot of a Tel Aviv suburb, according to Reuters. Better Place is working with Israel Electric to deploy 10,000 charging spots in Israel next year and add another 100,000 in 2011. The start-up also is collaborating with Nissan to develop an electric car that will be available in Israel in 2011.
> 
> The Ministry of the Environment asked Better Place and the automakers to join a three- to six-month pilot project that will bring 50 electric cars and a charging infrastructure to four prefectures in Japan beginning next month. The cars include the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, the Subaru Plug-In Stella and an electric motorcycle called the Erzero. The first battery exchange stations are slated to appear in the city of Yokohama, officials said.
> 
> We've already told you all about the iMiEV, which uses a 16-kWh lithium-ion battery to power a 47-kW (about 64 horsepower) motor. It's got a range of about 70 miles and charges in 12 hours.
> 
> *The Plug-In Stella unveiled earlier this year takes the technology underpinning the R1e electric car and stuffs it into a Kei car that seats four. The 9.2-kWh lithium-ion battery provides juice to a 40-kW motor that propels the car to a top speed of 62 mph. The battery can recharge 80 percent of its capacity in just 15 minutes.* That's it hiding behind all the Japanese officials in the picture above.


Japan Moves to Become Electric Vehicle Testing Ground | Autopia from Wired.com


----------



## Adrian.

MacDoc,

You completely stole my thread and put it in this thread. Not cool at all...


----------



## MacDoc

Getting cheaper real quick - that hits the "no brainer" price point when oil goes back over $100.



> *$20,000 electric car: Toyota FT-EV*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Toyota FT-EV could be on the road for around $20,000. Photo Gallery Link
> 
> 11 January 2009
> Toyota has unveiled a budget priced electric car that can be driven up to 80km without using a drop of petrol, reports Joshua Dowling in Detroit.
> 
> Just don’t drive further than that otherwise you’ll need a long extension cord.
> 
> The car could be sold in Australia from as little as $20,000 within three years, although this is not yet confirmed.
> 
> The Japanese maker fired the first shot on the eve of the 2009 Detroit motor show, revealing its surprise future model in the hometown of North America’s three biggest car makers.
> 
> Toyota’s announcement came as General Motors, Ford and Chrysler continue their fight for survival and calls for assistance from the US Government, and as the global economic crisis tightens its grip on the car industry.
> 
> The concept car is called the FT-EV and is based on a model called the iQ, which recently went on sale in Japan.
> 
> The tiny Toyota is bigger than a Smart city car but smaller than most other hatchbacks and can be fully recharged in a little more than seven hours.
> 
> It is due to go into production in Japan in 2012 and it could be on sale in Australia soon after.
> 
> “We are certainly looking at,” said Toyota Australia’s product planning manager Peter Evans. “It’s a fascinating vehicle. It is definitely one of our priorities for the Australian market. I think you will start to see a major shift towards these sorts of vehicles from 2012 and beyond.”
> 
> Toyota would not speculate on the retail price of its new electric car so far out from launch, but a similarly-sized petrol-powered hatchback costs about $15,000, and an electric motor and battery pack would likely add about $5000 to the cost of the car, say industry analysts, bringing the total close to $20,000.
> 
> Significantly, on battery power alone the tiny Toyota will travel almost 20km further than the Chevrolet Volt electric car to be made by General Motors.
> 
> However, the Toyota must be recharged after 80km, whereas the Volt has a petrol generator which extends total driving range up to 1000km.
> 
> The Toyota electric car is a tiny four-seater hatchback whereas the Volt is about the size of a Holden Astra sedan.
> 
> Both cars are due in Australia about the same time – by the end of 2012 – if all goes to plan.
> 
> A spokesman for Toyota in North America said last year’s spike in the price of petrol was no accident, and worse is to come.
> 
> In a statement issued to media, Irv Miller, Toyota Motor Sales group vice president, environmental and public affairs, said: “[The spike in the price of oil] was a brief glimpse of our future. We must address the inevitability of peak oil by developing vehicles powered by alternatives to liquid-oil fuel, as well as new concepts, like the iQ, that are lighter in weight and smaller in size. This kind of vehicle, electrified or not, is where our industry must focus its creativity.”
> 
> The comments echo those made by the boss of General Motors, Rick Wagoner, at last year’s Detroit motor show. In his address to media he said: “There is no doubt demand for oil is outpacing supply at a rapid pace, and has been for some time now. As a business necessity and an obligation to society we need to develop alternative sources of propulsion.”
> 
> Mr Wagoner cited US Department of Energy figures which show the world is consuming roughly 1000 barrels of oil every second of the day, and yet demand for oil is likely to increase by 70 per cent over the next 20 years.
> 
> Last year, Toyota announced it planned to sell one million petrol-electric hybrids annually from 2010, starting with at least 10 new hybrid vehicles.
> 
> Toyota is also trialing a large number of plug-in hybrid vehicles with fleet customers later this year, deploying across North America 500 Prius cars adapted with plug-in technology and using lithium-ion batteries.
> 
> Battery technology has been one of the biggest hurdles for electric cars because they are sensitive to extreme temperatures, are heavy and bulky to accommodate and costly and time-consuming to produce.


----------



## CubaMark

From the January 2009 Edition of "Toronto Life Magazine", a feature on Zenn Motors:

http://www.zenncars.com/media/documents/TorontoLife.pdf

M


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## Adrian.

CubaMark said:


> From the January 2009 Edition of "Toronto Life Magazine", a feature on Zenn Motors:
> 
> http://www.zenncars.com/media/documents/TorontoLife.pdf
> 
> M


I invested $5000 into Zenn the week I read that. I can't believe he has exclusive rights to all civilian applications of the EEstor battery. 

MacDoc, Zenn has Toyota destroyed with the CityZenn. 400 KM range, 125 Km top speed and a recharge in under 5 minutes at a comprable price point and the car will be larger...


----------



## MacDoc

ONLY if the Eestor pans out.


----------



## CubaMark

Well, you gotta admit, with Lockheed onboard with EEstor, it lends a bit of credibility to the technology...


----------



## MacDoc

Lockheed has NOT seen the prototype. They did vet the science.

My biz partner who is a large shareholder in Zenn was in yesterday and told me part of the delay was in obtaining the patent for the Eestor device and that has been granted now.


----------



## Adrian.

MacDoc said:


> Lockheed has NOT seen the prototype. They did vet the science.
> 
> My biz partner who is a large shareholder in Zenn was in yesterday and told me part of the delay was in obtaining the patent for the Eestor device and that has been granted now.





> LOCKHEED MARTIN SIGNS AGREEMENT WITH EESTOR, INC., FOR ENERGY STORAGE SOLUTIONS
> 
> 
> DALLAS, TX, January 9th, 2008 -- Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] has signed an exclusive international rights agreement to integrate and market Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) from EEStor, Inc., for military and homeland security applications. Specific terms of the agreement were not disclosed.
> 
> EEStor, based in Cedar Park, TX, is developing a ceramic battery chemistry that could provide 10 times the energy density of lead acid batteries at 1/10th the weight and volume. As envisioned, EESUs will be a fully “green” technology that will be half the price per stored watt-hour than traditional battery technologies.
> 
> “Lockheed Martin has a wide range of innovative energy solutions for federal, state and regional energy applications,” said Glenn Miller, vice president of Technical Operations and Applied Research at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “The EEStor energy storage technology provides potential solutions for the demanding requirements for energy in military and homeland defense applications.”
> 
> EESUs are planned as nontoxic, non-hazardous and non-explosive. Since the EESU design is based on ultra-capacitor architecture, it will allow for flexible packaging and rapid charge/discharge capabilities. EESUs will be ideally suited for a wide range of power management initiatives that could lead to energy independence for the Warfighter.
> 
> “Lockheed Martin continues to focus on providing our Warfighters with new and innovative technologies that will make their jobs easier,” said Lionel Liebman, manager of Program Development – Applied Research at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “Our ruggedized BattPack™ energy storage unit generated considerable interest at the Association of the United States Army Annual Meeting in October 2007 for its potential for fuel savings in vehicular silent watch applications. The potential of an even safer, smaller and more powerful EESU in BattPack™ would significantly enhance the Warfighter’s capabilities.”
> 
> EESU qualification testing and mass production at EEStor’s facility in Cedar Park is planned for late 2008.
> 
> EEStor, Inc., of Cedar Park, TX, originally developed its solid-state EESU technology as a longer lasting, lighter, more powerful environmentally friendly electronic storage unit for a wide variety of applications. EEStor’s vision also includes EESU facilitating the conversion of wind energy and photovoltaics into primary electrical energy providers and increasing the role of renewables for increasing energy production. Its CEO and president, Richard Weir, is also the inventor named on its EESU principal technology patent.
> 
> Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services.


Lockheed Martin Signs Agreement with EESTOR, Inc., for Energy Storage Solutions | Lockheed Martin

_EEStor, based in Cedar Park, TX, is developing a ceramic battery chemistry that could provide 10 times the energy density of lead acid batteries at 1/10th the weight and volume. As envisioned, EESUs will be a fully “green” technology that will be half the price per stored watt-hour than traditional battery technologies._

Lockheed has confirmed it, that is enough for me. 

Here is a very interesting interview with an official from Lockheed Martin:

Lockheed Martin Signs Agreement with EEStor | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site

He says that LM is,

"...not just concerned about hardware cost. Really what were focused on is logistics. Especially the logistics footprint in theater. That’s probably more important than material cost. And that one of the things that we think this technology can bring. Because it can be used for a variety of applications with a common architecture and chemistry. Its compact, its scalable and can be applied to a variety of applications. That obviously very attractive to a logistics community, to have more common components and that type of thing."

"EESUs will be ideally suited for a wide range of power management initiatives that could lead to energy independence for the Warfighter" (abstracted from above press release by LM).

"the logistics footprint in theater" means not having to truck diesel to your tanks in the middle of the desert in Iraq. I believe Lockheed Martin is looking at having fully autonomous vehicles. What is holding back electric vehicles right now is the battery technology, not the recharging. These batteries are charging in under 5 minutes, they could have generators on the axles of vehicles recharging the batteries and thus having perpetually autonomous vehicles. When a company says that there is something more important than the material cost, they have know they have something quite novel and promising.


----------



## MacDoc

You can yatter about it all you want Lockheed has not seen the prototype and the military has been known to fund the likes of telepathic locating. 

There is no fundamental science barrier - there is a huge manufacturing barrier to overcome.

You are talking about extremely high power densities and flows in a small space....

If you think the discharge of a CRT tube can kill you......consider what this involves.


----------



## MacDoc

> January 12, 2009 3:04 PM PST
> *Army going electric for light-use vehicles*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Chrysler's General Electric Motorcar delivered the first six, out of the thousands of NEVs the U.S. Army plans to lease in the coming years.
> (Credit: U.S. Army/General Electric Motorcards)]/img]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GEM's four-seater sedan.
> (Credit: U.S. Army/General Electric Motorcars)
> 
> The Big 3 of Detroit aren't the only ones singing the praises of electric vehicles this week.
> 
> The U.S. Army on Monday announced an initiative to potentially replace up to 28,000 gas-powered vehicles at more than 155 Army installations with Neighborhood Electric Vehicles (NEVs) in the coming years.
> NEVs are not highway-legal electric vehicles, but rather light-use electric vehicles with a maximum speed of 25 mph. The Army intends to use them for nontactical things like on-base transportation for visitors, or maintenance personal and their equipment, according to Paul Bollinger, deputy assistant secretary of the Army for Energy & Partnerships.
> Plans are already in the works to replace 4,000 gas-powered vehicles over the next three years with leased NEVs through a partnership with the General Services Administration (GSA), the U.S. government's main procurement agency.
> Global Electric Motorcar (GEM), a division of Chrysler, delivered the first six NEVs to Fort Myer, Virginia on Monday. Two of the NEVs are four-seat sedans. The other four are two-seat trucks with flatbeds and a payload capacity of 1,000 pounds. Both models have a range of 30 miles at 25 mph on a full eight-hour battery charge, and cost about $10,200 each.
> While GEM is the first manufacturer to have won a contract for this initiative, it will not be the only supplier. Contracts are still open for bid to any company on the GSA's approved vendor list, Bollinger said.
> The Army expects to replace a total of 800 army vehicles with NEVs this year, and replace 1,600 per year for 2010 and 2011.
> By replacing 4,000 gas-powered vehicles with NEVs the Army will save 11 million gallons of fuel and 115,000 tons of carbon dioxide emissions over the 6-year life of each vehicle, according to a statement from U.S. Army.
> As part of the lease agreement, GEM will take care of battery replacement and maintenance costs.
> One of the leading reasons the U.S. Army ultimately decided to go with NEVs as opposed to hydrogen or another alternative fuel vehicle, according to Bollinger, is that NEVs require little infrastructure to implement.
> "These plug into any three-prong electrical outlet. There's nothing big or complicated about it whatsoever. Most will go into depots where they come into a central area to be charged," Bollinger said during a press teleconference.
> The Army has estimated no more than $200 per vehicle for implementation, in the event that a three-prong electrical outlet is not readily available for the NEV to plug into and needs to be installed. And it expects to pay about $400 in electrical power for each vehicle per year, according to Bollinger.
> While a potential 28,000 vehicles is good news for those electric vehicle manufacturers on the GSA's list of approved vendors, there could be even more orders soon up for grabs from two other branches of the military.
> "No one from the Air Force has told me face-to-face that they would like to move in this area, but I've heard it in back channel communications. But the Navy has told me. They are interested in piggy-backing on the Army's order," said Bollinger.
> ._


_

Army going electric for light-use vehicles | Planetary Gear - CNET News_


----------



## eMacMan

Wonder how those will go over in Minnesota or North Dakota in winter.


----------



## bgw

eMacMan said:


> Wonder how those will go over in Minnesota or North Dakota in winter.


My primary concern would be heating and cooling the vehicle. Gasoline engines produce a lot of waste heat which really helps keep the passenger compartment warm in the winter and the engines have enough surplus power to drive air conditioning in the summer. Wouldn't most battery powered vehicles simply die under these additional loads. Or would we see vehicle specs like:

Maximum Range: 200 km
Maximum Range with cabin heating to 20C at outside temperature of -10C: 100 km
Maximum Range with cabin cooling to 25C at outside temperature of 35C: 50 km

If the cars are going to perform like that they wont cut it in this country!


----------



## Adrian.

bgw said:


> My primary concern would be heating and cooling the vehicle. Gasoline engines produce a lot of waste heat which really helps keep the passenger compartment warm in the winter and the engines have enough surplus power to drive air conditioning in the summer. Wouldn't most battery powered vehicles simply die under these additional loads. Or would we see vehicle specs like:
> 
> Maximum Range: 200 km
> Maximum Range with cabin heating to 20C at outside temperature of -10C: 100 km
> Maximum Range with cabin cooling to 25C at outside temperature of 35C: 50 km
> 
> If the cars are going to perform like that they wont cut it in this country!



These are fair concerns indeed. A heating coil would not consume all that much power I would think. Anyone know?


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## agreenapple

*A Change.*

I don't know the specifics of emissions or the full impact electric vehicles will have on the environment but I do feel we need a change. Vehicles run on fuel as they are now have been a plague on the earth. Electric vehicles were invented a long time ago but for whatever reason were not developed as gas powered engines. 
Imagine the advances we'd have today if they were taken as the way to go.

How about Hydrogen powered vehicles?


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## EvanPitts

^^^
A heater would take a substantial amount of power. Even a smallish heater would suck back a half kilowatt of power - but since the NEV is intended for neighbourhood style use, the heater wouldn't do much.

Considering that the Army used Jeeps for years, vehicles that had no heating, and only a flappy canvas "roof" usually with no side curtains, the NEV will not be a problem for the jaunts around the various bases, since that is where they will be used. Plus, the military types that would be driving them are so full of macho, the use of a heater would be for fairies...


----------



## MacDoc

Um batteries run hot  - heat is NOT an issue - cooling is and that's where a solar roof array would would help run the cooling unit


----------



## EvanPitts

agreenapple said:


> Electric vehicles were invented a long time ago but for whatever reason were not developed as gas powered engines.


It's not a problem of developement but of materials. The main impediment for electric vehicles is that of charge density, that is, having batteries that could cram enough charge into the smallest possible package.

A hundred years ago, electric cars actually dominated the marker, with the heavy weight and lengthy charge times made them impractical for all but taxi and local delivery services, and it did not take long until gasoline displaced batteries in convenience and economy. Battery technology did not change very much over the years, at least withoug breakthroughs that would make electric vehicles viable to a wide market.

Even today, there are exotic technologies that can attain rather steep charge densities, but the batteries are rather dangerous. Imagine the blaze that would result from battery fire, if one scaled up the nasty laptop blazes that have occurred into car sized blazes? Other types of battery construction are possible, but are expensive and exotic. So gasoline still reigns as champ when it comes to energy density and convenience (and when compared to bottled water, gasoline is still very economic).


----------



## eMacMan

I doubt the batteries would generate enough heat at -30° to even slightly warm the interior. A single coil would probably require about 1500 watts enough to deplete the batteries fairly quickly if added to engine loads and headlights. If the vehicles are very well insulated and reasonably draft free (unlikely at the price) one coil would be adequate. Two coils is probably closer the real the requirements.

As for AC this is the military they're supposed to smell sweaty.beejacon


----------



## K_OS

*Top Gear Reviews The Tesla Roadster*

YouTube - Top Gear Reviews The Tesla Roadster

Laterz


----------



## MacDoc

Your doubt about waste heat from batteries is misplaced - these are chemical exothermic processes.



> Using Waste Heat From Hybrid Vehicle Battery
> by Michael Graham Richard, Gatineau, Canada on 07. 4.05
> CARS & TRANSPORTATION
> 
> BUZZ UP!
> 
> The batteries of a hybrid are not only a source of electricity, they also can produce a lot of heat - between 270º and 340º for the Zebra battery by Zytek Electric Vehicles. That firm is currently working on a heat exchanger system that would use that waste heat to keep the car's cabin warm in winter and cool in the summer. The advantage that such a system would bring is obvious: Climate-control in the car could be operated without drawing any extra power (or less power, in any case), making hybrid cars even more efficient. Along with other systems such as using the exhaust to power the air conditioner (we wrote about it here), this falls into the "turn a problem into a solution" category. Not a major breakthrough, but every little bit helps.


----------



## agreenapple

*Fire? Future?*

Do you think it is really that battery fire in a car would be any less dangerous than a fire in a car full of gasoline??

What does everyone think is the most logical step toward the best fuel alternative though? Taking into consideration every aspect.. The transition, environment, financial, development, technology. Would it be a better designed Hybrid? Hydrogen powered? Electric? 
What do you see happening realistically in the near future? What will be released and taken further?


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## MacDoc

SuperCap makes the most sense all around if it works out.

So many ways to regenerate - intermediate - PHEV with fossil assist for range.

Ultimately hydrogen fuel cell / super cap and composite vehicles.


----------



## agreenapple

*Sup[ercap?*

Never heard of Supercap.. Anyone making these yet?? I've only read or seen on TV about Hydrogen fuel cells, and the Hybrids which are already around.
Do the Hybrids out right now even really count as environmentally friendly vehicles? (I realize their better than a full on gas engine but.. )


----------



## MacDoc

SuperCaps ( size larged capacitors ) are in use in many fields - just not in vehicles yet.

Eestor is the one with the big game changer IF it works out.

BMW also choice a SuperCap route over batteries.



> *UltraCapacitor BMW?*
> 
> Written by alaxaweb
> Friday, 07 September 2007
> 
> Never known for making environmental friendly vehicles, BMW now believes that they have a future in hydrogen. Until recently, BMW has been very quiet about hybrid electric vehicles. That is changing... BMW is working on a hybrid using an ultra-capacitor that is nothing like we are used to. "Ours is lighter, faster and more efficient," says BWM Technology Guru Professor Freymann. Super capacitors, power boosted by regenerative braking, replace batteries.
> "[The super capacitors] are lighter and store less power, but unlike batteries we can use all their power — all 100 percent." So they give a quick, high-power, short-term "fix" to a small electric motor (mated to a conventional gasoline engine), used only for standing-start acceleration.
> 
> "An electric engine has a lot of torque at low revs — that is its main benefit — so it's ideal for fast initial acceleration. At higher revs, once you've begun to accelerate, nothing can beat an internal combustion engine. Our hybrid approach combines the best characteristics of both engines."
> 
> It will be interesting to see what BMW does for the hybrid electric vehicle and the ultracapacitor.... stay tuned...


----------



## agreenapple

*neat`*

Well that sounds very interesting. How exactly are the Super Capacitors run? Is is a Hydrogen based system or Electric?

It's nice to see BMW developing enviro friendly engines and vehicles. I really hope Canada takes hold of this and embraces not only the importance of this evolution but the real demand of Canadians for the alternative.


----------



## MacDoc

Electric

Electric double-layer capacitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## agreenapple

*nice*

Sweet. 

I think I'm just gonna build an electric go kart.. but like a huge one.. like 3/4 the size of a smart car. I don't know how.. but I'm gonna do it & drive all around the city in it! WHO's IN?!?!?

lol


----------



## CubaMark

An interesting article from TIME magazine, on Bolivia's unique position as the world's leading supplier of Lithium...


----------



## Adrian.

*The Car of the Future is Almost Here...*



> Aptera Motors has rolled out the first pre-production model of the 2e, an all-electric three-wheeled two-seater that gets the equivalent of 200 mpg and goes 100 miles on a charge. It's a significant milestone for the Southern California startup, which plans to put the first cars in driveways by Halloween and looks like a contender to win the $10 million Progressive Automotive X Prize.
> "Everything is progressing nicely as we ramp up for full production of the 2e beginning in October," says chief marketing officer Marques McCammon. "We're still on target to build an ultra-efficient, high-mileage vehicle without sacrificing comfort and safety, and once Californians get behind the wheel this fall, we expect to change the world of commuter transportation."
> In recent months, it has become clear that automakers big and small are focusing on electric vehicles as the next evolution of the automobile. If Aptera manages delivering its superstreamlined cars nine months from now, the 2e will be among the first mass-market, relatively affordable (at $25,000 to $45,000) EVs on the road.
> And that would be a testament to the power of the $10 million X-Prize to spur innovation.
> The 3-year-old company funded by Google, Idealab and others is among at least 20 teams competing in the X-Prize race to build the world's first mass production-ready vehicle that exceeds 100 mpg.
> Most of the major automakers rolled into the Detroit auto show with EV concept cars, with Ford and Chrysler among the companies promising to begin putting cars with cords on the road in 2010. Tesla Motors has been building its all-electric Roadster for almost a year now, and Fisker Automotive says it will begin producing its $87,900 plug-in hybrid next fall.
> But despite their advanced drivetrains, all those vehicles look like regular cars. The 2e is like nothing else in the auto industry, which might be why it scored a cameo in Star Trek. With its sleek, three-wheeled design, the 2e looks like something Spock might cruise around in. A lithium-ion battery powers an electric motor that can propel the car from zero to 60 in less than 10 seconds on its way to a top speed of 90 mph.
> High performance obviously isn't the 2e's strong suit, but who cares when you're getting the equivalent of 200 mpg? Making the car as slippery as possible is key to the car's impressive efficiency. With a coefficient of drag around 0.15, the 2e is even more aerodynamic than the General Motors EV1, the most aerodynamic production car ever built.
> The 2e's ultralight weight of just 1,700 pounds also contributes to its efficiency. But don't worry, the car's front crumple zone, race car-like passenger safety cell and airbags will keep everyone inside safe. Aptera says there's enough room inside to haul around 15 bags of groceries, two sets of golf clubs or a surfboard.
> Aptera will flog the pre-production model mercilessly to ensure durability and safety are up to snuff. The 2e differs from an earlier prototype called the Typ-1 in several significant ways. Front-wheel drive replaces the prototype's belt-driven rear wheel to improve weight distribution and traction, the rear-view camera was ditched in favor of mirrors, and wider doors make it easier to get in and out. The interior is a little slicker too, with a stereo, roll-down windows and solar-assisted climate control (check out the PV cells on the roof).
> In other words, the 2e has evolved from a spartan runabout into a real car. Aptera says it's already received 4,000 deposits from potential buyers, who will receive a car that Aptera says should look pretty much like the model shown here.
> "We're getting close to finalizing our final prime-time vehicle, but there's still a lot of work to accomplish," company chief Paul Wilbur says.
> Of course, nothing is certain in this economy, and the auto industry is taking such a beating that even Toyota is hurting, so there's no guarantee Aptera will meet its goal. And it's hardly the first startup to think it can beat Detroit at its own game. But Wilbur's spent more than 25 years in the auto industry, doing everything from product planning and development to bean counting for the likes of Ford and Chrysler, so he's got some idea what it takes to build a car.
> "We now have to make the final refinements in the upcoming months, squeezing out every ounce of positive performance, and then we'll have the first safe, affordable all-electric vehicle on the market," he says.
> Affordable is a relative term when you're talkin' EVs, and the 2e is expected to cost you something more than $25,000 but less than $45,000. That's a pretty wide range, and it includes such mass-market cars as the next-gen Toyota Prius hybrid, the forthcoming Chevrolet Volt range-extended EV and the Mitsubishi i-MiEV electric city car that may or may not be coming to America.
> The first models will be classed as motorcycles and available only in California, but Aptera hopes to sell it nationwide and then get to work on a new model. "We hope to change everyday driving forever," Wilbur says.


The Car of the Future Promised for October | Autopia from Wired.com


----------



## Dr.G.

Sadly, that car would never survive a winter here in St.John's. We have drifting snow on the roads deeper than that car's height. As well, if the snow does not get it, the pot holes will.


----------



## bgw

I'd drive one — if it never snowed in Toronto. Might be good in Vancouver and Victoria though.


----------



## Dr.G.

True, bgw. I can't see that sort of design being feasible in any sort of snow.


----------



## agreenapple

*nice.*

Nicely done, thanks for posting that man!
I love it. great car for sure, though i agree not gonna work in most Canadian winter situations. I also think the doors would need to be redesigned, just not practical in city parking at all.

That's a little nicer than my GO KART design. lol


----------



## MazterCBlazter

.


----------



## MacDoc

Doors are no issue - likely less wide than a regular vehicle and I'd drive it in winter without hesitation - why not?


----------



## Dr.G.

""The first models will be classed as motorcycles and available only in California, but Aptera hopes to sell it nationwide and then get to work on a new model. "We hope to change everyday driving forever," Wilbur says." 

MacDoc, this is about as far away in North America from St.John's as you can get. "I'd drive it in winter without hesitation ...." Not in St.John's, you won't. I give you about 10 minutes before you abandon it on the streets of St.John's.


----------



## Adrian.

Dr.G. said:


> ""The first models will be classed as motorcycles and available only in California, but Aptera hopes to sell it nationwide and then get to work on a new model. "We hope to change everyday driving forever," Wilbur says."
> 
> MacDoc, this is about as far away in North America from St.John's as you can get. "I'd drive it in winter without hesitation ...." Not in St.John's, you won't. I give you about 10 minutes before you abandon it on the streets of St.John's.


Dr.G., 

You are very correct to be hesitant. Even if the machine is front wheel drive, it is simple not heavy enough to maintain consistent and safe traction in winter conditions. Consider that even pick up truck drivers usually put bags of sand or salt in the backs of their trucks to give them reasonable traction in the winter. That car would spin out very quickly I would think.

This is certainly only one aspect of the problematic nature of the vehicle.

However, we should not discard the salience of the advancement in both technology (it does have good mileage, speed and range) and the commercial availability of the car.


----------



## MacDoc

I didn't say St. John's - there would be few days it would be a problem in the GTA.

There would be a very small market in NL - a large one in the GTA.


----------



## Dr.G.

Adrian, I forgot about the wind. My Toyota Echo is bounced about by the winds here in St.John's when they gust between 100-130kp/h. Still, I think that the snow and the potholes would get it in the end. Still, it is a great concept.


----------



## Dr.G.

"I didn't say St. John's - there would be few days it would be a problem in the GTA.

There would be a very small market in NL - a large one in the GTA." 

True. We produce 13% of Canada's oil but have some of the highest gasoline prices in Canada.


----------



## Adrian.

Dr.G. said:


> Adrian, I forgot about the wind. My Toyota Echo is bounced about by the winds here in St.John's when they gust between 100-130kp/h. Still, I think that the snow and the potholes would get it in the end. Still, it is a great concept.


Indeed. I think we are over evaluating the car in terms of its design, while not even addressing the, dare I say, fact that the car is quite ugly. I could see either Michael Jackson, Disco Stu or a space man climbing out of that car.


----------



## MacDoc

You clearly don't ride motorcycles.


----------



## Dr.G.

"You clearly don't ride motorcycles." I have, and I can see why St.John's has so few motorcycle riders within the city limits.


----------



## SINC

I rode a bike in the early 1960s. One spill on a gravel road left me picking shrapnel out of my butt to this day. I sold it the very next day for half what I paid and never got on another "accident looking for a place to happen".


----------



## Adrian.

MacDoc said:


> You clearly don't ride motorcycles.


I actually have a Ducati 999R and a KTM Duke in the downstairs parking garage. 




















I've rode dirt bikes with the special snow chain spikes in the winter and everything.

Still, that car is not suitable for harsh winter and deep snow.


----------



## MacDoc

Then why would you EVER object to that EV on the basis of looks. 

No one said deep snow - you see any "deep snow" in the GTA.  It's a city vehicle.


----------



## Dr.G.

"No one said deep snow - you see any "deep snow" in the GTA." MacDoc, "deep snow" is considered "flurries" here in St.John's.


----------



## K_OS

*World's Fastest Car Goes Electric*

From Wired.
World's Fastest Car Goes Electric | Autopia from Wired.com

A beautiful EV capable of maddening speeds is just amazing and Shelby is going for it with there Ultimate Aero EV. I won't buy one but if Shelby licenses the technology so bigger manufacturers can use it to build smaller city cars that don't look like a dog's breakfast would be nice.

Laterz


----------



## bgw

In the GTA it isn't deep snow like where Dr.G. is; it is the freeze thaw cycle that turns the little snow we get with our narrow downtown streets and on street parking into narrow paths with an icy washboard surface to drive on. That electric car wouldn't be able to handle those conditions. However for the remaining nine or so months of the year it would probably perform well.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> "No one said deep snow - you see any "deep snow" in the GTA." MacDoc, "deep snow" is considered "flurries" here in St.John's.


Ditto for Southern AB and South Western BC.


----------



## Dr.G.

DOGPOWEREDSCOOTER.COM I have enough for a seven-dog powered model ................... and it should beat a 20 mule-team Canastoga wagon on a cross-country race.


----------



## MacDoc

> In the GTA it isn't deep snow like where Dr.G. is; it is the freeze thaw cycle that turns the little snow we get with our narrow downtown streets and on street parking into narrow paths with an icy washboard surface to drive on.
> __________________


What would ever give you that idea???

First the Toronto is NOT the GTA and I have no idea what you think would be the limitations on an EV that would not apply to any other small vehicle. You would not park on the street and then try and charge it.
People living in a walkup are not likely markets anyways.

These are most suited to suburban second vehicles for errands and such and those commuting into the city.


----------



## Dr.G.

I was just trying to include you, MacDoc. I know of the distinction between the GTA and TO. Just like in NYC, with New York City and "the metropolitan area", which extends into three states.

I agree with your idea of the suburban second vehicle.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## CubaMark

Bob MacDonald of the CBC's Quirks & Quarks answers your concerns about electric cars and cold Canadian weather! (VIDEO LINK)


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting that Bob MacDonald would mention Quebec's hydro power, when some of it comes from NL. Still, we here in NL could double our capacity of hydro power for the rest of Canada if only Quebec would allow us to transmit it, for a fee, across its power grid. Ontario allows Quebec to transmit power, generated in NL, to the US, but Quebec won't allow power generated in NL to go across its grid to be sold in ON.


----------



## agreenapple

*checked it more*

I watched a bunch more videos about this car.. youtube and such. There are a couple models of this one. A fully electric type and a Hybrid half electric/half gasoline model. I really need to start a specific savings account for when these things come out. 
I also can't wait to see it's direct competition. 

WOW... what a cool vehicle.


----------



## agreenapple

*>*

Have you guys seen any other cars like this that are actually gonna make it on the market?? And has anyone seen stuff about that FLYING CAR that they've been working on for decades? lol Apparently the company is finally going bankrupt.. after years of trying to make this thing affordable. DDDAAAMN!


----------



## agreenapple

*Heyoh!*

What's up guys, anyone around today? Lets chat!


----------



## eMacMan

agreenapple said:


> Have you guys seen any other cars like this that are actually gonna make it on the market?? And has anyone seen stuff about that FLYING CAR that they've been working on for decades? lol Apparently the company is finally going bankrupt.. after years of trying to make this thing affordable. DDDAAAMN!


Stopped holding my breath on that flying car sometime back in 1958.beejacon Still keeps showing up never as anything close to a production model.


----------



## bgw

You think some people are bad drivers... just wait until they get airborne!


----------



## agreenapple

*lol*

Yeah can you just imagine that!!? Air traffic control for a whole city. You'd have cars dropping like flies!


----------



## K_OS

agreenapple said:


> Yeah can you just imagine that!!?


when I read that the 1st horror that came to my mind is the 1st time I would get cut off by somebody talking on there cell phone.

Laterz


----------



## Adrian.

*Regenerative Suspension*



> Students at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology have developed a shock absorber that harnesses energy as it smooths your ride, and they say it can improve fuel efficiency by as much as 10 percent.
> The regenerative shock absorber uses the oscillations of a vehicle's suspension to generate electricity. Its inventors claim a heavy-duty truck using six of their GenShock shock absorbers can produce enough power to displace the alternator, thereby increasing engine efficiency and fuel economy. The students have attracted the attention of AM General, the company behind the military Humvee, and believe future iterations of GenShock could improve the fuel economy of passenger cars and extend the range of electric vehicles.
> "I want this to be a standard feature on heavy vehicles and eventually hybrid consumer vehicles and electric vehicles," Shakeel Avadhany, who led the GenShock team, told Wired.com.
> The power-producing shock is the latest example of the push to recapture energy from automobiles that is otherwise wasted. Turbochargers are the most obvious — and oldest — example, but more recent developments include the regenerative braking systems used in hybrids and electric cars. The quest to increase efficiency also has automakers increasingly replacing mechanical components like air conditioning and power-steering pumps with electric ones to ease the load on the engine and save fuel. These technologies will grow more common as automakers strive to increase fuel efficiency and extend battery range.
> "You main losses are friction, braking and heat," says Spencer Quong, senior vehicles analyst with the Union of Concerned Scientists. "Anything you can do to regain energy there will improve efficiency."
> Avadhany, a senior studying materials engineering, started toying with the idea of a wasted energy in August 2007. He and classmate Paul Abel set out to identify where energy leaks from vehicles and figure out how to reclaim it.
> It wasn't long before they focused on shock absorbers, which expand and compress countless times over their lifetimes. The kinetic energy is lost as heat. They figured there had to be some way of capturing that energy, which their tests show can be "a significant amount" — especially in heavy-duty vehicles.
> "The amount of energy available in the suspension is on par with the energy coming out of the alternator," Avadhany said. "It's 6 to 10 kilowatts for a heavy truck and 3 to 4 kilowatts for a passenger car."
> The students developed a shock absorber that forces hydraulic fluid through a turbine attached to a generator. It is controlled by an active electronic system that optimizes damping to provide a smoother ride while generating electricity to recharge the battery or operate electrical equipment. Should the electronics fail for any reason, GenShock works just like a regular shock absorber.
> Avadhany says tests have shown a heavy-duty truck outfitted with six GenShocks can generate an average of 6 kilowatts of electricity on a typical road. That is enough to displace the alternator load, allowing the alternator to freewheel and eliminate parasitic drag on the engine.
> Whether it is enough to significantly increase the fuel economy in passenger cars is another story. Simply put, heavier vehicles on rough terrain will generate more electricity than smaller cars on smoother roads, said Tom Turrentine, director of the Plug-In Hybrid and Electric Vehicle Research Center at University of California at Davis.
> Still, any improvement is an improvement, and the students founded Levant Power Corp. about a year ago to develop and commercialize the technology.
> They're being advised by Yet-Ming Chiang, an MIT professor and founder of batterymaker A123 Systems, and Avadhany says Levant is talking to outside investors and VC firms.
> Perhaps more impressive, AM General is interested enough that it sent the students a military Humvee to use as a test mule. Company executives want the students to give them a full-scale demonstration in July.
> Photos: MIT
> 
> The regenerative shock absorbers are made of steel and force hydraulic fluid through a turbine that is attached to a generator. Shock absorbers take a tremendous amount of abuse — especially those installed on heavy trucks and military vehicles — but Avadhany says that won't be an issue with GenShock, which they've tested on a military Humvee. "We beat the **** out of this thing and it did just fine," he said.
> 
> As the shock absorbers compress and expand, they push hydraulic fluid through a turbine attached to a generator. The system is controlled electronically to optimize damping, something Avadhany says provides a smoother ride than conventional shock absorbers. That increases safety, he says, because "if it's a smoother ride, you can go over the terrain faster."
> 
> Although heavy-duty trucks and military vehicles like the Humvee are the initial market for GenShock, Avadhany says the goal is to develop the technology for passenger cars and hybrids.


Regenerative breaking, now regenerative suspension! 


High-Tech Shocks Turn Bumps Into Power | Autopia from Wired.com


----------



## MacDoc

Brilliant. :clap:


----------



## CubaMark

Good find, Adrian! 

I found myself surfing some ZENN car-related sites today (there's a very good, 10-minute video on YouTube - search for ZENN and GLOBAL). While watching the manufacturing plant segment, I wondered to myself if the car employed the least energy-intensive technologies available. For example, were the blinkers and other lights LEDs or still the old-style bulbs? Since the car body and standard gear is all manufactured in France (ZENN just slaps the batteries and drivetrain in), there seemed to be little room for innovation, like the sort of shocks indicated above.


----------



## Adrian.

CubaMark said:


> Good find, Adrian!
> 
> I found myself surfing some ZENN car-related sites today (there's a very good, 10-minute video on YouTube - search for ZENN and GLOBAL). While watching the manufacturing plant segment, I wondered to myself if the car employed the least energy-intensive technologies available. For example, were the blinkers and other lights LEDs or still the old-style bulbs? Since the car body and standard gear is all manufactured in France (ZENN just slaps the batteries and drivetrain in), there seemed to be little room for innovation, like the sort of shocks indicated above.


Are they really that environmentally friendly? Buy the shell from France, put in a battery and ship it back. They sure are tackling that carbon problem head on eh


----------



## vinnie mack

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> Is it just me or are electric cars a bad idea; I mean plug in the wall fully electric cars like GM is pursuing...think it's called the volt. This car does have the ability to charge on fuel but cann plug into a 110-volt outlet.
> 
> With energy crisis an everyday phrase, how is this anywhere near a good idea? Will it actually offset the cost of refining fuel if people are using less fuel? Doubt it, doubt it woud make a dent in fuel consumption unless all vehicles on the road make this change... NA GA HAP EN!
> 
> Discuss amongst yourselves, I'm veklempt...


It isn't. I am a huge car enthusiast as well. Think of it this way, you know how much of the Earth's natural resources are used to actually make the batteries that are in the car itself?. A hell of a lot more then fuel. 

GM had an electric car called the EV-1 a few years back to a select few Californian residents. If you haven't seen "who killed the electric car" it is a good little movie to watch.

Long story short they took the cars from the people without notice (these people really started enjoying the car) and had them crushed cancelling the project due to possible pressure by the fuel companies.

The electric car can work, but I think hydrogen is a better bet or using kinetic energy.


----------



## MacDoc

> Think of it this way, you know how much of the Earth's natural resources are used to actually make the batteries that are in the car itself?. A hell of a lot more then fuel.


Ludicrous position.
Batteries are highly recyclable and cost of production is minor compared to mining fossil fuel and then pissing the resulting blowby into the atmosphere.

We're a long ways from a hydrogen economy - batteries are a short term step along the way.


----------



## CubaMark

Plus... the ultracapacitor avenue is an interesting one - I wonder what is the difference in the materials-base of the battery vs. the ultracapacitor? 

Waiting for the CityZenn.... 

M


----------



## CubaMark

...and an interesting article that sums up battery tech, EESTOR's claims, potential GM investment (video link) in that Texas company for the Chevy Volt, etc. Be sure to check out the comments as well.

M


----------



## Adrian.

Thanks for those links Mark.

Man, my education tells me vapourware, but my gut says put everything you have into Zenn stocks!


----------



## CubaMark

Adrian. said:


> my gut says put everything you have into Zenn stocks!


...sigh... if only I had something put....


----------



## ryerman

i went to the autoshow this past weekend and caught a glimpse of the new Prius. Beautiful and quiet as a mouse! 

Maybe this is a stupid question but do they make motorcycle hybrids?


----------



## ScanMan

CubaMark said:


> ...and an interesting article


Yes, enlightening. Thanks.


----------



## Adrian.

ryerman said:


> i went to the autoshow this past weekend and caught a glimpse of the new Prius. Beautiful and quiet as a mouse!
> 
> Maybe this is a stupid question but do they make motorcycle hybrids?


Indeed, well electrics. Hybrids take too much space for a bike.

Enertia Bike


----------



## MacDoc

> *Toronto races to become electric car pioneer*
> Updated Sun. Apr. 5 2009 7:37 AM ET
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronto is speeding ahead in an effort to become one of North America's first cities to be ready for wide-scale use of electric plug-in vehicles.
> 
> The city has teamed up with a Colorado-based think tank for "Project Get Ready," an initiative to get selected North American cities to start laying the initial groundwork for plug-in cars.
> 
> As part of the initiative, it's now putting together an action plan, considering new pilot projects, and consulting with stakeholders to prepare the city for a likely increase in the availability of plug-in vehicles in the coming years.
> 
> "The end goal is to be ready for more electric vehicles when they become available," Ben Marins, the manager of special projects at the city-run Toronto Atmospheric Fund, tells CTV.ca.
> 
> He says there are a host of issues that need to be ironed out before North American jurisdictions are ready to power electric vehicles on a large scale.
> 
> "That means having the infrastructure in place, having supportive policies in place and having consumers in place," he says.
> 
> "When those three things come together, what they do is encourage vehicle manufacturers to sell here. You are not going to sell to a market that is not ready," he explains.
> 
> While cars that run purely on electricity aren't going to be the norm any time in the immediate future, Marans notes that the technology is changing rapidly and Canadian cities need to be ready.
> 
> "The plug-in market is growing. GM is coming out with the Volt in 2010 and other manufacturers are also coming out with plug-in hybrids ... What we're seeing now is the technology is coming forward," he says.
> 
> This is not a long-term projection, he says, and that's why Toronto wants to start preparing now. But first, there are number of things that need to be done to establish policies and an infrastructure that will allow large scale use of electric hybrids throughout the city.
> 
> "Toronto has been in discussion with key partners -- the utility companies, the non-profit sector -- and already knows the stakeholders to start addressing these issues," Marans says about putting together the right policies and infrastructure for electric vehicles.
> 
> He says part of his team's task is to work with local public and private enterprises to take the initial steps that would lead to a wider infrastructure for plug-ins. He adds government agencies at all levels have thousands of vehicles in their fleets, as do private courier companies that could be used to highlight Toronto's readiness.
> 
> "We want to have corporate and provincial fleets commit to buying these plug-in vehicles. It's these fleets who will be the early adopters because they have the numbers," Marans says.
> 
> Marans says the city is working on a plan that would allow re-charging locations for these plug-in fleets in centralized areas throughout the city. He says the fleets will also be good marketing for the larger consumer market.
> 
> Also as importantly, Toronto wants to use these early projects to see what effects large scale plug-in use may have on the city's overall energy needs.
> 
> "Right now, there are nine plug-ins in Toronto through a pilot project; there is no concern about grid capacity. What happens when it's 9,000 or even 900,000 all in one area ... What if you and your neighbours all came in at five o'clock and plug-in ... will the lights go out?" he asks.
> 
> Marans says all of these questions need to be answered quickly, if Canadian cities want to be among the pioneers of what could shape the next wave of transportation.
> 
> He adds that he has little doubt that plug-ins and electric vehicles will play an important part of Canada's environmental goals.
> 
> "Transportation accounts for 25 per cent of Toronto's greenhouse gas emissions and that's significant. If we are going to hit our reduction goals the reality is you're going to have to take cars off the road. Is that going to happen? Probably not on large scale," he says.
> 
> "What we're doing is presenting vehicle electrification as one solution to tackle this and meet those reduction goals."


CTV.ca | Toronto races to become electric car pioneer

Incremental change.
Toronto also allows free parking to Smart Cars, scooters and motorcycles. :clap:


----------



## Adrian.

I have my down payment put aside for the day they come on sale


----------



## Dr.G.

Toyota is coming out with their third-generation Prius in the Summer, so that should be interesting.


----------



## Adrian.

Dr.G. said:


> Toyota is coming out with their third-generation Prius in the Summer, so that should be interesting.


I think we are on the cusp of the transformation to pure electric in 2009. I am watching Zenn quite prudently to see what is happening in October; their stated date for the 400 KM range, 135 KM speed fully electric car with 15 minute recharge. We will see.


----------



## CubaMark

Some ZENN updates for you...

Report on their AGM (March 26th, 2009)

www.ZENNERGY.com (ZENN's electric drivetrain micro-site)


----------



## dona83

Mitsubishi has started taking names to lease their new electric vehicle, the Mitsubishi iMiEV with a range of up to 200km per charge and a top speed of 180km/h. About 2,000 people have already signed up in Vancouver area and it'll be officially available in July.


----------



## Dr.G.

I have my 2500 shares of ZENN, waiting for them to show us the way. Problem is, they can't be driven in NL.


----------



## imobile

*my car is somewhat electric*



RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> Is it just me or are electric cars a bad idea; I mean plug in the wall fully electric cars like GM is pursuing...think it's called the volt. This car does have the ability to charge on fuel but cann plug into a 110-volt outlet.
> 
> With energy crisis an everyday phrase, how is this anywhere near a good idea? Will it actually offset the cost of refining fuel if people are using less fuel? Doubt it, doubt it woud make a dent in fuel consumption unless all vehicles on the road make this change... NA GA HAP EN!
> 
> Discuss amongst yourselves, I'm veklempt...


every time i fill er up ( 96 liters of 94 octane ) i get a SHOCK


----------



## Dr.G.

GM, Segway unveil new two-wheel, electric vehicle

Just saw the pic of this prototype ..................... there are potholes here in St.John's that would swallow up this car. Still, I think it is an interesting concept.


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> I have my 2500 shares of ZENN, waiting for them to show us the way. Problem is, they can't be driven in NL.


Not the current ZENN. The CityZENN, however, should be road-certifiable!


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## Dr.G.

Let's hope so, Mark. We shall see. Que sera sera. Pax, mi amigo.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

> GM, Segway unveil new two-wheel, electric vehicle
> 
> Just saw the pic of this prototype ..................... there are potholes here in St.John's that would swallow up this car. Still, I think it is an interesting concept.


Here's a YouTube vid of it:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






and another:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






I don't know if this is a viable concept but small vehicles like this could serve most needs of a lot of urban and small community people. For someone in the city, this in combination with a membership in a car co-op could serve 100% of the vehicle needs of great deal of people.


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## Dr.G.

Interesting video clips, GA. Still, with St.John's having more potholes than people, and with the most rain and fog, sleet and snow or any major Canadian city, it would not work here since there are no doors.


----------



## MacDoc

Let the games begin :clap:



> *Innovation: 100-mpg car contest under starters orders*
> 
> * 18:15 08 April 2009 by Tom Simonite
> 
> Last night in California a list of 111 teams was announced – one of which may hold the key to motoring's green future. They are the registered entrants to the Progressive Auto X Prize, a contest that will award prizes totalling $10 million for vehicles that can go 100 miles on the energy equivalent to that in a gallon of fuel.
> 
> Notable by their absence were the world's largest car manufacturers – bar Indian firm Tata – who don't seem interested in taking part. The list is varied spanning slick Californian start-ups with electric cars, to less-refined backyard efforts still finalising their designs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _This electric car made by Californian firm Aptera is just one of the 111 hopefuls entering the Auto X Prize. Click the gallery link in the main text, left, to see some of the other vehicles taking part (Image: Aptera)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See a gallery of some of the vehicles entered into the Auto X Prize
> Gallery - Cars competing to be 100mpg champions - Image 1 - New Scientist
> 
> But you can be sure that the auto giants will be closely watching the progress of entrants through the design judging and performance testing phases planned for this year, as well as the race events scheduled to start in 2010. The contest offers a chance for smaller players to shake up an industry long dominated by giant, established firms set in their ways.
> 
> *Fresh start*
> 
> "This is a huge opportunity for niche players to make a big difference," Nick Carpenter, technical director of small UK firm Delta Motorsport, told New Scientist. Delta is finalising the design of a "low, sporty four-seat coupe" that will use a unique, lightweight electric motor developed at Oxford University, and is scheduled to begin track tests at the end of 2009.
> 
> "Whether we or any of the other small teams can become the next GM or Ford is another matter," says Carpenter, "but the contest gives us the chance to bring fresh approaches uncluttered by history." Some of those new ideas may be snapped up by bigger fish, he adds, but even those that don't still have a chance to shine and influence the future of mass motoring.
> 
> The prize looks set to provide both technological entertainment, and practical advances. The entrants are a varied mix ranging from innovative, to tried-and-tested and even downright wild ideas, but the contest rules ensure that the more serious efforts will produce vehicles that are not far from ready to appear on our roads.
> 
> *Demanding tasks*
> 
> That's because although it is relatively easy to make a road vehicle travel 100 miles on the equivalent of a gallon of fuel the prize comes with other criteria that provide more of a challenge.
> 
> The main $7.5-million purse for designs with four wheels, carrying four people requires they travel 200 miles on one load of their chosen fuel – at the target efficiency – and must accelerate from 0 to 60mph in 12 seconds and reach speeds of 100 miles per hour.
> 
> The smaller $2.5-million prize for vehicles of any design carrying two or more people requires they go 100 miles on a top-up and reach at least 80 mph. Both categories restrict carbon emissions and require attainable plans to manufacture 10,000 vehicles a year.
> 
> Those down-to-earth restrictions, combined with the aim-high mentality of the entrants seem sure to provide a contest worth watching. Who knows, it may even change road transport the world over.
Click to expand...

Innovation: 100-mpg car contest under starters orders - tech - 08 April 2009 - New Scientist


----------



## MacDoc

> *Chicago Gets First Solar Powered EV Charging Station*
> Written by Jerry James Stone
> Published on April 9th, 2009
> 
> Posted in Electric Cars (EVs), Plug-in hybrid EVs
> 
> San Francisco and Portland might be engaged in some electric vehicle pissing contest, but I think both cities just got seriously spanked by Chicago!
> 
> Yes…Chicago!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Windy City just unveiled the first solar-powered electric vehicle charging station during the IOC tour. The Solar Plug-In Stations will be used daily by the City of Chicago Department of Fleet Management to power the city’s electric cars.
> 
> “Carbon Day and the City of Chicago are demonstrating true innovation, ingenuity and initiative,” said Richard Lowenthal, CEO of Coulomb Technologies. “Solar energy and electric vehicles are an inevitable partnership that is one more step to reducing our dependence on foreign oil.”
> 
> * » See also: Connecticut and Massachusetts Could Get EV Charging Network
> * » Get Gas 2.0 by RSS or sign up by email.
> 
> Carbon Day Automotive’s Solar Plug-In Station(TM), built by Carbon Day Construction, was designed by the world renowned firm of Adrian Smith + Gordon Gill Architecture.
> 
> *“Without these stations it would be like driving around in traditional cars without the availability of gas stations,” said Scott Emalfarb, CEO at Carbon Day. “The day of true plug-in electric vehicles will be here sooner than most people realize and the world needs to be ready to accommodate them. Carbon Day will build them and they will come*.”
> 
> Wanxiang America Corporation manufactured the solar panels that form a tree-like canopy built by Residential Steel. Pure Energy, LLC, Northbrook installed the sculpted piece and interfaced it with the concealed underground battery pack enhanced to store solar energy, specially designed and developed by ALL CELL Technologies.
> 
> “Chicago is that most American of American cities,” Obama said. Well, I hope other American cities follow suit.
> 
> So does Carbon Day Automotive as they hope to have thousands of these stations nationwide by 2011. I hope so too!


Chicago Gets First Solar Powered Plugin Station

People wondered who would need a telephone too....


----------



## MacDoc

Nice - now what is the price.












> April 9, 2009, 3:05 pm
> *Mitsubishi to Sell an Electric Car in U.S., Someday*
> By Richard S. Chang
> Mitsubishi i-MievJustin Lane/European Pressphoto Agency The Mitsubishi i-MiEV.
> 
> You could call it a soft introduction. During a press conference at the auto show Thursday morning, Mitsubishi’s president and chief executive, Shin Kurihara, stood in front of a car covered by the usual auto show drape but talked about the small fully exposed car beside it instead — Mitsubishi’s i-MiEV electric car, in white.
> 
> Mr. Kurihara said it was a “real four-passenger car” that would go on sale this summer in Japan. The first car, he said, would roll off the assembly line in July.
> 
> The particular car on the stand was left-hand drive, he noted, which has “special meaning.” The i-MiEV is running in test fleets in the United States, where, Mr. Kurihara announced, it will eventually go on sale, though he gave no timetable.
> 
> So what is this i-MiEV of which I speak? It is a tiny car with very little wheel overhang. It has been proved to get 75 to 100 miles in a single charge, Mr. Kurihara said. And it takes 14 hours to fully charge through a 110-volt electrical outlet. It takes half that time with a 220-volt outlet, and Mitsubishi is developing a quick charge feature.


http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/new-york-auto-show/


----------



## Adrian.

Thanks for the posts MacDoc. I really like the Chicago Solar Charging Posts.

I don't see why people are putting up such a stink about getting off of carbon. 

If the industrial sectors ran from centralised power-generating centres and the rest of the people off of decentralised technologies, all will be fine. You can tell that the American Administration is going ahead with this in their Smart Grid plan. 

We are in some very turbulent times, I am quite enjoying it.

Dr. G,

That Segway could have doors thrown on it no problem. It could even potentially have a completely removable cap for nice/bad weather alternations. If it was the right price, I would go for it and have a Zip Car membership for those truly horrid days. 

Cheers my friends. I enjoy this atmosphere of positivism in here, quite refreshing.


----------



## Dr.G.

"That Segway could have doors thrown on it no problem." Adrian, now all you would have to do is fill in the 250 potholes that are bigger than the car. There are now more potholes in St. John's than people.


----------



## MacDoc

I want it NOW!!!!!










CTV.ca | Refrigerators on wheels? Cool, say the kids


----------



## Dr.G.

My wife and I test drove a Kia Soul and will be waiting for the Cube to be brought in to NL by Nissan.


----------



## dona83

I love how the release of the Mitsubishi iMiEV in Vancouver is being largely ignored here. This is the spark needed to finally get the EV ball rolling in Canada, and I'm not talking about 40km/h street legal golf carts. Highway capable, 250km per charge FTW.


----------



## MacDoc

Didn't know it was in Canada - what is pricing like???


----------



## dona83

No pricing yet, and the vehicle will be available for lease only. Over 2,000 in Vancouverhave pre-registered so far but only a handful will get to drive one off the lot when it becomes available in July. City of Vancouver and BC Hydro will each get one to test. It won't be cheap, probably $35,000 if you were to buy one outright. I'd look to the CityZENN to be more reasonably priced, but hey anything to get the ball rolling!

I can't find the exact news article, I only heard it on News 1130.


----------



## MacDoc

In my view the key is how much savings are there.
IF one can save a couple hundred a month on duel pure electric is a good idea - I think it's early tho.
It's one thing I liked about the Volt - that extended range due to the small onboard charger.
They all seem to be dodging the plug in hybrid.


----------



## bsenka

You nailed it macDoc.... the value has to be in cost savings and more convenience to gain wide spread acceptance. The environmental aspect has to be an added bonus, not the sole reason, otherwise it'll always be a niche product.


----------



## CubaMark

So... you can now get a ZENN for under $10,000 (pre-tax)... (one) (two) (three) (four)










...but this Globe & Mail report says the stock is in the dumps...


----------



## bsenka

CubaMark said:


> So... you can now get a ZENN for under $10,000 (pre-tax)... (one) (two) (three) (four)
> ...but this Globe & Mail report says the stock is in the dumps...


The stock is facing two problems. First, everyone's stocks are either in the crapper, or jumping up and down with abandon. Second, the battery tech that they are hanging their future on is top secret and experimental. If you want to invest, you get nothing more from them than "trust us". After what's happened in the markets over the last year or so, few people are willing to just trust anyone. It does not help that people are using the word "vapourware" to describe EEStor.

I'd like to see ZENN succeed, but the cityZenn will have to deliver on all of its promises, AND get delivered for a rock bottom price for that to happen.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

bsenka said:


> The stock is facing two problems. First, everyone's stocks are either in the crapper, or jumping up and down with abandon. Second, the battery tech that they are hanging their future on is top secret and experimental. If you want to invest, you get nothing more from them than "trust us". After what's happened in the markets over the last year or so, few people are willing to just trust anyone. It does not help that people are using the word "vapourware" to describe EEStor.
> 
> I'd like to see ZENN succeed, but the cityZenn will have to deliver on all of its promises, AND get delivered for a rock bottom price for that to happen.


Sadly, I'm starting to think that EEStor's product is vapourware too. There's actually an EEstor discussion board that I've looked at recently, where the members seize on any scrap of vapour and have long discussions on it. From what I've read there and elsewhere, the rumours are that it was a working concept, but unforeseen issues with scaling it to mass production have stymied them.

It would be great to be surprised, this technology, if viable, would change the world, but the delays and missed deadlines have gone on too long to believe this any more.


----------



## Dr.G.

It looks as if low-speed electric vehicles will not make it onto Ontario's roads.

The Ministry of Transportation has finalized its safety rules for a pilot project that would have allowed electric cars on the road, but the companies that make the cars say those regulations are too strict.

The ministry's regulations for low-speed electric cars means adding safety features that are not demanded by Ottawa.

Catherine Scrimgeor of Toronto-based ZENN Motors, the maker of an electric vehicle, says for her company it's the final straw.

"The ZENN [electric car] as it exists right now — the ZENN car that we sell in Quebec and the United States — will not be marketed in Ontario," she said.

Regulations will keep low-speed electric vehicles off Ontario roads


----------



## dona83

Let me guess, the Ontario government is overrun by either the CAW, executives from the big three, or both?


----------



## MacDoc

Piaggio MP3 Hybrid To Be First Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle in US : Gas 2.0


----------



## EvanPitts

dona83 said:


> Let me guess, the Ontario government is overrun by either the CAW, executives from the big three, or both?


No, just brainless morons with a smattering of imbaciles! beejacon

Of course, we'll end up far behind the times, clinging on to those things that are entirely obsolete, while we get overhauled by the rest of the world...


----------



## CubaMark

*ZENN interview*

From the Thursday, April 29th edition of the _Globe & Mail's GlobeAut_o:



> *Charged up over cutting-edge battery *
> Michael Vaughan speaks to Ian Clifford, Founder and CEO of Zenn Motor Co., about why his electric car company is betting the farm on an energy-storage device no one has seen


(PDF Download) 696kb


M


----------



## Dr.G.

Mark, I would love to see ZENN succeed here in Canada. We shall see.


----------



## K_OS

*Leo Motors tests electric vehicle conversion*

From CanadianDriver.com



> New York, New York - Tests on a Kia converted to electric mode by Leo Motors has achieved speeds of 160 km/h and a range of 240 km on a single charge, going from zero to 96 km/h in six seconds.
> 
> The conversion kit by Leo Motors, a company based in Korea and the U.S., was fitted to a Kia Morning, a popular model in Korea. Leo said that its conversion kit can be used in any type of small to midsize vehicle platform for any manufacturer, and can convert electric vehicles for real-world use for both highway and city traffic.
> 
> The conversion uses a 60 kW water-cooled AC motor with controller, 30 kWh or 16 kWh lithium polymer power pack with multi-battery management system, and charger.
> 
> “This solution is more than a kit to convert small to midsize cars into electric vehicles,” said Robert Kang, chairman and CEO. “It is a real-world solution available today to the entire auto industry that enables car manufacturers to introduce electric vehicles of their own into the marketplace immediately.”
> 
> The kit is priced at US$20,000 16 kWh power pack; the company said it is available now on an order basis.


This will be great if they can get the price below $10,000.00 and if it happens I will sacrifice one of my Mini's to do this conversion.

Laterz


----------



## CubaMark

globeandmail.com: globeauto.com Electric cars give battery makers a boost


----------



## Dr.G.

I have to wonder that if EEStor actually does develop its ultra capacitor if the powers that be will actually allow ZENN to be the one car manufacturer to use it in actual cars? We shall see. I bought shares in ZENN because I believed in the company and their product. A friend of mine bought the shares with the expectation that they will be taken over. Personally, I hope that I am right and not my friend. We shall see.


----------



## MacDoc

Cute - lease at $5 a day. Not a bad alternative for those that don't want to ride a mcycle










smart Toronto



> In city driving, the Fortwo gets a reported 46.3 mpg, while highway driving is an even more impressive 68.9 mpg.


That gets to be a pretty attractive second vehicle for many....that fuel mileage is likely better than my Silverwing tho performance in not comparable. 550 cc on the Silverwing versus 1 litre on the SC.

There was even one of the now discontinued turbo-diesels for $11k for sale.


----------



## Adrian.

SmartCars are cool, but not very practical. Honda Fits start at $14 and change. They have a back seat and a trunk.

I could have one no problem, but I have no kids.


----------



## Max

Adrian. said:


> SmartCars are cool, but not very practical. Honda Fits start at $14 and change. They have a back seat and a trunk.
> 
> I could have one no problem, but I have no kids.


Smarts are fine if you're going to the local grocery store and shopping for two for the week. You could also toss a small amp and an electric guitar back there. That's fine for my purposes - it would make an excellent second car and a great city commuter. With a smaller footprint than a Fit, too - which, in my neighbourhood where street parking is the norm, is a not insignificant feature.


----------



## Dr.G.

"SmartCars are cool, but not very practical." My neighbor has one and when the snow drifts over the car and buries it, he figures it is parked for the winter, since it can't take the snow on the typical St.John's street.


----------



## Adrian.

Dr.G. said:


> "SmartCars are cool, but not very practical." My neighbor has one and when the snow drifts over the car and buries it, he figures it is parked for the winter, since it can't take the snow on the typical St.John's street.


Interesting. Is it not heavy enough? Has he considered more aggressive tyres?


----------



## Dr.G.

Adrian. said:


> Interesting. Is it not heavy enough? Has he considered more aggressive tyres?


 The father weighs close to 300 pounds, and the wife about 250. So, their added weight actually helps to keep the car on the road with good snow tires. Problem is they live on a cul-de-sac and we get plowed out last after all the major roads are done first. My Toyota Echo with 15 inch quality snow tires can just about make it out of the driveway and up the street (I live on a cul-de-sac), but his can't make it if there is more than 6 inches of snow (keeping in mind that anything under 6 inches of snow is considered flurries).


----------



## Adrian.

Dr.G. said:


> The father weighs close to 300 pounds, and the wife about 250. So, their added weight actually helps to keep the car on the road with good snow tires. Problem is they live on a cul-de-sac and we get plowed out last after all the major roads are done first. My Toyota Echo with 15 inch quality snow tires can just about make it out of the driveway and up the street (I live on a cul-de-sac), but his can't make it if there is more than 6 inches of snow (keeping in mind that anything under 6 inches of snow is considered flurries).


This begs the question Dr., why the blazes do you live there?


----------



## CubaMark

Adrian. said:


> This begs the question Dr., why the blazes do you live there?


Heh - another poor soul who hasn't had the good fortune to set foot in the gorgeous province of Newfoundland and Labrador... who hasn't enjoyed the great company of a Newfoundlander (home-grown or import)... who hasn't been screeched in... who hasn't sat on the shore in June, watching icebergs float by and whales leaping toward the stars...


----------



## Dr.G.

"Heh - another poor soul who hasn't had the good fortune to set foot in the gorgeous province of Newfoundland and Labrador... who hasn't enjoyed the great company of a Newfoundlander (home-grown or import)... who hasn't been screeched in... who hasn't sat on the shore in June, watching icebergs float by and whales leaping toward the stars..."


Very true, Mark. I admit, I hate the winter here and the lack of Spring. However, I could have moved after my initial 2 year contract was up here at Memorial. Still, that was 32 years ago.

Adrian, I have a good job, and when I need to go into my office, I can walk to work or I am 5 minutes by bike or 2 minutes by car. I live near a park, and I am able to walk to a shopping area in less than 5 minutes. So, I appreciate the nice weather when it does finally come. 




Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada ? Official Tourism Website ? NewfoundlandLabrador.com

Newfoundland and Labrador Video Gallery - NewfoundlandLabrador.com

Newfoundland and Labrador Video Gallery - NewfoundlandLabrador.com

Newfoundland and Labrador Video Gallery - NewfoundlandLabrador.com

Newfoundland and Labrador Video Gallery - NewfoundlandLabrador.com

Newfoundland and Labrador Video Gallery - NewfoundlandLabrador.com


----------



## Adrian.

Very true Dr. Seems like quite the tranquil life there.

I am guilty of ignorance of course. I've never been out east. I've always wanted to go to Nova Scotia, I may pop over to the Rock. Will the Shang be serving coffee and toast as always Dr.?


----------



## Dr.G.

"I may pop over to the Rock." Adrian, one does not "pop" over here. This is why it is so problematic going anywhere. This is why my wife would like to be in Nova Scotia. When she goes to a dog show in NS, it is a big production just getting to Halifax. We shall see.

Yes, coffee and toast, etc, will always be served, regardless of where I am, for The Shang is far more than just me.


----------



## Dr.G.

Getting back to electric cars, I think that it will be a long time for them to be approved for use in NL.


----------



## CubaMark

Adrian. said:


> I've always wanted to go to Nova Scotia, I may pop over to the Rock.


Adrian, I went to work for a year in Newfoundland, on the Bonavista peninsula. It was my first time in the province, and I had NO IDEA how FRAKKIN' BIG Newfoundland is. It's seriously huge....


----------



## Adrian.

CubaMark said:


> Adrian, I went to work for a year in Newfoundland, on the Bonavista peninsula. It was my first time in the province, and I had NO IDEA how FRAKKIN' BIG Newfoundland is. It's seriously huge....


I can imagine. My grandmother went for a hiking trip out there and I have seen some very beautiful pictures.

I enjoy motorcycling. Perhaps I will take my KTM for a trip this summer. That would put some mileage on it!


----------



## CubaMark

*Plugging into the electric car market*



> But one of the bumps in the road to increasing electric car ownership in Canada is the lack of vehicles for sale at Canadian dealerships, since the smaller market isn't as profitable for manufacturers. Also, low-speed all-electric cars, such as the Toronto-based ZENN, aren't allowed on many roads.
> 
> The vehicles made by ZENN, which stands for zero emission no noise, are not allowed in many states on the other side of the border, and are only permitted in Quebec and B.C.
> 
> In the U.S., the ZENN is classified as a Neighbourhood Electric Vehicle, allowing it to travel only on low-speed roads. As with many such vehicles, ZENN is limited in the length of its charge and its top speed of 40 km/h.
> 
> ZENN founder Ian Clifford, though, has high hopes for a faster, longer-lasting vehicle.


----------



## Dr.G.

Adrian, there are RV and motorcycle clubs that come here every summer. It is a long way to get here, but few complain once they arrive.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Adrian, I went to work for a year in Newfoundland, on the Bonavista peninsula. It was my first time in the province, and I had NO IDEA how FRAKKIN' BIG Newfoundland is. It's seriously huge....



So true, Mark. So very true.


----------



## Dr.G.

Mark, I would love it if NL allowed these sort of ZENN cars on the road. There is one ZENN car, privately owned, which is being driven illegally on our roads, or so I am told. How he got a license and insurance is beyond me, but the person, who is quite wealthy, told me to come over to his home and he would give me a ride in NL's only ZENN car.


----------



## MacDoc

Recent over view of high milers

Small Cars - High MPG and Electric Cars - High Gas Mileage - thedailygreen.com


----------



## Dr.G.

Unique looking cars, MacDoc.


----------



## Max

I dig that Toyota iQ. Not necessarily in that colour, but it looks pretty cool.

I have long been interested in the Smart but there's been too much negative feedback regarding cabin noise and a generally rough ride. Whereas I would expect Toyota to continue its generally high standards re fit and finish, so the iQ looks like a nice minicar to at least take a closer look at. For a quite small vehicle it looks to have an impressively stout build. Looks like it might have a low centre of gravity, too.


----------



## MacDoc

Nicccce












> *From zero to 100 on zero emissions
> It plugs into a regular 110V outlet and takes four hours and less than $1 to fully power up.*
> 
> May 7, 2009 at 12:00 AM EDT
> For all the futuristic technology under the seat, this emission-free electric-powered motorcycle rides like an old-school, single-cylinder two-stroker, with an untamed throttle and more than enough torque to leave your butt on the pavement.
> 
> All that's missing is paint-shaker vibrations, and the rapid-fire brap-brap-brap from the exhaust. Instead, it has all the rumble of a moderately paced sewing machine.
> 
> This is the Zero S, the first full-size, highway-speed electric motorcycle to hit Canadian road


more
globeandmail.com: globeauto.com From zero to 100 on zero emissions


----------



## Dr.G.

The price of gas is going up 7 cents on Thursday to just over $1.05 a liter.  Where are the electric cars when we need them???


----------



## MacDoc

Coming in a tidal wave.....tho not so suitable for your neck of the woods

complete and comprehensive coverage

Zoomi Life - News and Information from the Electric Vehicle industry

Some of the two wheelers are real and NOW..

There is even a fuel cell version getting set for release....what an ideal combo.










Suzuki Crosscage Hydrogen Fuel Cell Motorcycle Could Release Next Year | Zoomi Life

This must have been what it was like as the automotive age kicked off originally.....all these tinkerers in garages and small companies wheedling away at creating a new industry.....

I mean this is a competitive vehicle right now










Zero Motorcycles Announces Zero S Electric Supermoto Bike | Zoomi Life


----------



## CubaMark

EEStor is promising to deliver the goods by the end of 2009.... (PDF LINK)

This coming soon after passing "permittivity tests" and ZENN cars increasing its ownership stake.

ZENN's stock closed Wednesday at $4.93....


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> EEStor is promising to deliver the goods by the end of 2009.... (PDF LINK)
> 
> This coming soon after passing "permittivity tests" and ZENN cars increasing its ownership stake.
> 
> ZENN's stock closed Wednesday at $4.93....


Let us hope that they will be able to survive all of the other larger companies getting into the electric car business. We shall see.


----------



## MacDoc

I was talking to my biz partner who is heavily involved - he cashed out a chunk the other day as he's done very well with it. The Eestor is a game changer IF it can be produced in quantity as designed. There is no similar contender.

It's in many ways like the beginning of the mass hard drive market ( the scientists background are from that ) when now we think nothing of a 1 TB drive for little more than $100 yet that was unthinkable just 15 years back. Or the size and scale of the microchip industry now.

That the likes of BMW bypassed batteries to focus on supercaps/ultra caps speaks well of the entire approach.
The key is to be able to store a lot of power across thin membranes - that's this......"permittivity tests" - safely and with consistent results.
So the materials quality control is crucial. It would be a breakthrough in so many fields of power usage it's the electrical power equivalent of mass data storage in terms of impact and scale of business that would arise.
That Lockheed and long view companies like KPMG are engaged speaks well....Zenn just happened to be in the correct place at the correct time. Their stock is based very heavily around their exclusive world wide contract for small vehicle applications for the Eestor technology. As an EV maker - Zenn are a bit player...but they may hold the contract to the crown jewels of all future EVs,

Your catchphrase "we shall see" is VERY appropo for this venture.


----------



## Dr.G.

Good point, MacDoc. Yes, we shall see. I only have 2500 shares and have made a few thousand dollars, but I am in for the long haul. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## MacDoc

It's probably the equivalent of holding Intel early on. There is risk but a very very high reward side over time if the tech works.

To give you scale - my associate had 600,000 shares mostly through his efforts to get the company financed then he bought some more as well.


----------



## K_OS

From Autoblog.com



> Mitsubishi launches production of the iMiEV in Japan
> 
> Mitsubishi has launched series production of its iMiEV electric car at its Okayama, Japan factory. That makes the tri-diamond brand the first major automaker to kick off full scale production of a new EV, though it will be followed by many other automakers over the next two years. The automaker plans to build about 2,000 units through the remainder of this fiscal year and then crank that up to 5,000 next year. The first cars are going to corporate fleet customers but retail sales are expected to start later in the year.
> 
> The iMiEV has a range of about 100 miles from its lithium ion battery pack. The batteries are the result of a joint venture between Mitsubishi and GS Yuasa. Factoring government incentives available in Japan, the $45,660 iMiEV will end up costing about $31,300 at current exchange rates, which is a bit higher than the $27,000 price previously rumored. No decision has been made yet on when the car will be offered in the U.S. market, but we do know it will make its way here sometime. First, Mitsubishi needs to develop a production left-hand drive version.


Laterz


----------



## countryharvest

*electric car*

Fact is that we need alternatives to gas, anything that can be explored is a good thing!


----------



## K_OS

*Red Tape holding up MINI E charge times*

From Autoblog.com



> With MINI Es finally being delivered to the 450 test drivers in New York and California, a problem has cropped up that will limit the ability of many of those people to actually use the car. When MINI USA was taking applications for leases on the new EV, among the requirements were a garage with 220V electrical service. This was necessary in order to be able to charge the 35 kWh battery in four hours. When the car is delivered, MINI sends along an electrician to install a special wall box for charging.
> 
> The problem is the non-standard charging cable. In many of the areas where the cars are being distributed, local building codes require Underwriters Laboratories approved electrical hardware. Approval is still pending from UL on the 220V charging cable so it can't yet be distributed in those areas. The cars are all being delivered this month but roughly 300 of the recipients will have to charge from 110V wall sockets until they get UL-approved cables. That means a full charge will take about 23 hours. MINI USA spokeswoman Nathalie Bauters told USA Today that the company expects to have UL approval for the cable and have them all distributed by the end of July.


Laterz


----------



## K_OS

*Subaru 2nd company to release EV in Japan*

From Canadiandriver.ca



> Subaru launches plug-in electric vehicle in Japan
> 
> Tokyo, Japan - Subaru has launched a plug-in electric vehicle, the Stella, in Japan. The model will be sold directly through the automaker’s parent company Fuji Heavy Industries (FHI), with delivery starting in July.
> 
> The company plans to deliver about 170 vehicles by the end of March 2010. After-sales service will be provided through some Subaru dealerships designated by FHI.
> 
> The Plug-in Stella is based on the Stella mini car and uses a high-performance lithium battery that achieves a 90-km range in city driving. The vehicle can be charged up to 80 per cent of its capacity in 15 minutes with a quick-charging system, and is fully rechargeable in eight hours with Japan’s standard 100-volt household power, or five hours with 200-volt.
> 
> The electric motor, mounted in the engine compartment, generates 47 kW of maximum power output. It recovers inertia energy in deceleration through a regeneration system, further enhancing the energy efficiency.


Laterz


----------



## MacDoc

> *Tesla Motors to open seven sales, service centers this summer*
> 
> June 8th, 2009 By Tracy Seipel, San Jose Mercury News The new Tesla Model S all-electric sedan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new Tesla Model S all-electric sedan at the car's unveiling in Hawthorne, California, in March 2009. Tesla Motors says orders have been streaming in for its electric Model S sedans due to begin rolling off assembly lines in 2011.
> 
> As General Motors and Chrysler close dealerships across the country, San Carlos-based Tesla Motors has announced plans to open some.
> 
> Thursday, the electric carmaker said it will open seven regional sales and service centers in upcoming weeks, establishing a coast-to-coast network in North America and retail presence in Europe.
> 
> Stores in New York, Seattle and Chicago will open in late June, followed by Miami. The new additions will complement Tesla's flagship stores in Menlo Park, Calif., and Los Angeles, which opened a year ago. The company's first European store will open in London later this month, followed by Munich and Monaco.
> 
> Prospective customers can test-drive the cars at all the locations.
> 
> "We are rethinking almost every aspect of the automobile _ from the powertrain to the customer experience, both online and in our stores," Tesla CEO and product architect Elon Musk said in a news release.
> 
> Tesla said its $109,000 Roadster beats nearly every other car for acceleration yet is twice as energy-efficient as a Toyota Prius. With an EPA-estimated range of 244 miles per charge, Tesla said it costs roughly $4 to refuel and can be completely recharged in as little as 3.5 hours.
> 
> This past weekend, Tesla delivered its 500th Roadster in the United States. In late June, Tesla will begin producing the Roadster Sport, a higher-performance electric car that goes from 0 to 60 mph in 3.7 seconds. European Roadster deliveries begin this summer.
> 
> Tesla expects to begin producing an electric, zero-emission, $50,000 Model S sedan in late 2011.
> 
> The news follows last month's announcement by Daimler that it will acquire 10 percent of the company in a deal valued from $110 million to $990 million.


:clap:

Good video of the sedan here

2011 Tesla Model S Part 1 of 3: Design | Video - OnCars

Pretty impressive


----------



## MacDoc

EV vehicles just exploding - how cool is this....

no licence or insrance











and Canadian

Ecoped Canada 2009 Electric Bike - Scooter | City45


----------



## Dr.G.

Cool. How high is it off of the ground?


----------



## MacDoc

Dunno - can't find it - suggest you email them.


----------



## Dr.G.

The mid-point underside looks only a few inches off of the ground. It would never make in through the pot holes of St. John's.


----------



## bsenka

MacDoc said:


> EV vehicles just exploding - how cool is this....
> 
> no licence or insrance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and Canadian
> 
> Ecoped Canada 2009 Electric Bike - Scooter | City45


"Cool"? It's a moped. :lmao:

32 km/hr max speed? Seriously? My max on my way to work on my bicycle is usually around 40. And I can just pick it up and bring it inside with me, and it needs no charging.

I'm trying to see the advantages of this, but it seems to be the perfect no man's land, with both bicycles and cars being much better options no matter what you need transportation for.


----------



## MacDoc

I think we've been around this block with you - you didn't get the first time...unlikely to change  no need to quote an entire piece to make a minor point.

We all understand you are a wonderful bicyclist....:clap:

the answer is ......so what.....other people have other requirements...


----------



## bsenka

MacDoc said:


> We all understand you are a wonderful bicyclist....:clap:



I'm not though, and that's the real point. I'm not an athlete by any stretch of the imagination. I'm an old, overweight, injury riddled, bookworm/computer geek. My back, knees and hamstrings are permanantly injured, I have chronic pain. If I can do it, anyone capable of walking upright can do it.



> the answer is ......so what.....other people have other requirements...


If you have any requirements that have you seriously considering a *moped* that a bicycle does not already serve better, you need a car.


----------



## EvanPitts

bsenka said:


> If you have any requirements that have you seriously considering a *moped* that a bicycle does not already serve better, you need a car.


I considered a Moped when I was at my last job, since it was a little too far to bike in a reasonable amount of time. Quite a number of mopeds and Vespas take that route these days, and since they have a lane to themselves for about half the distance, they get through fast, especially if there is some big collision blocking things on the 403 (which is like, three or four times a week).


----------



## MacDoc

> *Electric motorcycles gain traction*
> Updated Sun. Jun. 7 2009 7:12 AM ET
> 
> Hannah Elliott, Forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get ready for an American motorcycle revolution. That deep Harley rumble and the siren call of the Suzuki whine will soon be sharing the road with silent bikes. A slew of sleek, lightweight machines, either fully electric or hybrid, is making its debut and signaling a paradigm shift in both motorcycle culture and green transportation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The US$9,950 Zero S will go on sale this spring, one of the first plug-in motorcycles widely available in the U.S. Weighing in at just 225 pounds, this bike is made by former NASA engineer Neal Saiki and his three-year-old Santa Cruz, Calif., start-up._
> ZERO S ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE
> 
> Electric bikes' biggest draw is the fact they cost less than 1 cent per mile to drive; Saiki's Zero S goes 60 miles on one charge and can hit 60 miles per hour at top speed.
> 
> Its dirt-ready predecessor has already proven itself on the U.S. market. Last year, Zero sold out of the electric Zero X dirt bike and had a six-month waiting list for that model. Saiki expects the same this year, despite the downturn. More than 100 buyers have already made $1,000 deposits to reserve Zero S's, sight unseen.
> 
> Other electric options, with top speeds of 70 and 150 miles per hour, respectively: the $8,500 Electric Motorsport GPR-S (currently available for order) and $68,995 Mission Motors Mission One (slated for delivery in early 2010).
> 
> There are even more electric models coming down the pike, including an electric motorcycle from Honda, promised for 2011, and the forthcoming $11,995 Brammo Enertia. Hybrid offerings like the EVII and Piaggio are also joining the pack.
> 
> Until the first quarter of 2009, when the economic crisis sent U.S. motorcycle sales tumbling 21 per cent, bike sales had grown steadily, increasing 58 per cent to 6.6 million since 1998, according to the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC).
> 
> Motorcycles tend to do well in tough economic times, as drivers look for ways to save on fuel and vehicle purchase costs. Americans bought 1.1 million motorcycles last year, the sixth year in a row that domestic bike sales topped 1 million units, according to the MIC. Prior to this six-year period, the last time U.S. motorcycle sales topped 1 million was in the early 1970s, when oil prices jumped.
> 
> Honda President and CEO Takeo Fukui says he expects motorcycle sales to support the company through difficult times. He even predicts consistent and extended market growth in Asia and South America, where motorcycles are used for daily transport rather than recreation. Honda sold 15.1 million motorcycles worldwide last year, up 12 per cent from 2007.
> 
> Historically, Americans have used motorcycles for play, not work, while Europeans and Asians rely on small motorbikes for inexpensive transport through narrow streets. But that divide is slowly narrowing, says Paolo Timoni, president of Italy-based motorcycle maker Piaggio USA. Piaggio sells seven brands of motorcycles and scooters worldwide.
> 
> Motorcycles are gaining traction in the States mainly because commuters are realizing how much gasoline they can save, how much easier it is to find parking, and how effective bikes are for avoiding congestion, Timoni says. Not to mention the fact that electric bikes require almost no maintenance (since they have only one moving part, the rotor) and will never leak gasoline or brake fluid.
> 
> A recently passed 10 per cent federal tax credit for electric motorcycles has no doubt helped spur interest as well.
> 
> Of course, it will take some doing to convince Harley loyalists to convert to electric machines. But electric-bike makers say they aren't necessarily trying to win converts. Instead, they want to sell motorcycles to people who already love them and are looking to augment their garage portfolios with something green.
> 
> Those electric makers will know they've hit it big when they get a Hell's Angels chapter of their own.


You can't do on a bicycle what I do on my "moped"  and it's a perfect vehicle for when I don't need to drive the van since it gets 4 times the mileage and it's fun.

There is a huge and growing demand for second vehicles for errands..bring em on....just have to keep the dirty paws of the insurers off them....


----------



## MacDoc

This the kind of quiet I'm really looking forward to.

A late night slow ride on an EV motorcycle through the backroads. This has the soundtrack to show that aspect.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## EvanPitts

Anyone watch the "Worst Commute" commercial - like the dude that spends 2 and a half hours in solid traffic to go 27 miles. He'd slice the commute down in half by using a 3-speed bicycle.

I remember being stuck in the center of Toronto many years ago when a series of accidents shut down a few of the main routes out - and the attempt to keep driving further and further north to avoid it - that was nuts, because it turned a half hour drive into a five hour marathon. One time I had to be in Concord at 10 - so I left here at 7:30 and didn't get there until 11:30 - which wasn't a problem because I still beat the delivery truck that had left at 7 and didn't get there until 12...

Seems to me that this whole commuting situation could be improved - like maybe having more than one person in a car. Of course, no service department would put two in a car - unless the job called for four people, then they'd let two go and struggle at that.

On another note, my girlfriend's place is hiring another clerk, and despite it being on a bus route that is one of the best serviced routes in town (three routes stop right in front, another turns two blocks away, and another passes three blocks up) - almost all of the people that have applied are from out of town and will have to drive. What a waste, for a job that could easily be telecommuting, twice a week at least.


----------



## MacDoc

....

*Electric Superbike Uses iPhone For Its Dashboard*



















who knew



> Apple fanboys might still be drooling from yesterday’s iPhone 3Gs announcement, but I bet they never saw this coming: an electric superbike with an iPhone for all its instrumentation!
> 
> Heck, I was happy to finally get MMS support!
> 
> The MotoCzysz E1pc is one of the many entries in the TTXGP race this Friday. How the iPhone is integrated into the bike is still a mystery but features like its native GPS will surely be used. And whether it wins or loses, it definitely gets points for creamy white geeky goodness.
> 
> The E1pc can go from zero to 120 mph in “seven or eight seconds” according to Michael Czysz, the company’s founder. It uses ten lithium-ion battery packs with three electric motors all mounted on a carbon fiber main frame.
> 
> Here’s a video of its test run:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Czysz explains, “With teams from around the world ascending on the Isle, this is a true international competition and even though the machines are futuristic the race is not and the premise even less so- this is an old fashion ‘run what you brung’ race. Never would my Grand Father or even my Father imagined such a motorcycle would ever exist, even I would have doubted this event possible in 2009 only a few years ago.”
> 
> The TTXGP is a zero-emissions motorcycle race taking place on the famed Isle of Man Mountain Course. Some of the teams include Mission Motors, Brammo, EVOdesign and of course MotoCzysz. Other entrants include Barefoot Motors, Electric Motorsport and one of my favorites…KillaCycle Racing. Teams from the United States, United Kingdom, India, Austria, Germany and Italy all plan to compete.
> 
> TTXGP founder, Azhar Hussain, said, “With twenty-four confirmed entries, we are thrilled with the high level of interest the TTXGP has generated globally, and the superb quality of teams that will be involved.”


Electric Superbike Uses iPhone For Its Dashboard : Gas 2.0


----------



## CubaMark

A month without a post in this thread? Inconceivable!

Study: To speed electric cars to market, sell batteries separately | Green Tech - CNET News

Canada may already be 'plugged-in' for electric cars

Vancouver gives boost toelectriccars - The Globe and Mail

What happens when your e-car runs out of e-juice?


----------



## Rps

I know it may be a small point, but at one time they laughed at the "horseless carriage". Someone has to try to come up with an alternative method....it is a cinch we won't give up or cars. Often, it is the case, that it is easier to improve something than to invent it. Sometimes that doesn't work either [ such as Windows ] but if you don't try what will we be left with?


----------



## jspence444

adagio said:


> Electric sounds cool but how do you plug it in to charge up?
> 
> *I don't think some of you have thought things out.* The bulk of the people living in the city, who are most inclined to want an electric car, have no driveway and no way of charging.
> 
> Another thing to ponder. *How well do these all electric cars keep a charge at -30 C for a couple of weeks when they are parked outside 24/7 ?*
> 
> As neat as an all electric car sounds I don't see any practicality in them. Hybrid is the way to go, IMO.


Well, actually...

The *cold* only *helps* to keep the charge in a battery for longer.


----------



## MacDoc

$10k incentive  no about my electric scooter.....cough up.....



> The Canadian Press
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TORONTO -- *Ontario's government will announce a plan Wednesday to offer purchasers of electric cars incentives of up to $10,000 in a bid to make the environmentally-friendly vehicles more accessible to the average consumer.*
> 
> The plan is part of the province's attempts to boost the struggling auto sector and position itself at the forefront of the emerging technology, sources told The Canadian Press.
> 
> "It's clear that cars are moving in this direction," a government source said.
> 
> "Ontario wants to lead. We think that incentives to make it easier to buy and drive electric cars mean more jobs for Ontario workers, and it's good for our environment."
> 
> Premier Dalton McGuinty will make the announcement Wednesday at a Chevrolet dealership in Toronto, along with Transportation Minister Jim Bradley.
> 
> General Motors Co.'s hybrid-electric Chevrolet Volt is expected to hit the roads next year, but will cost as much as $40,000 and would be more affordable with the rebate.
> 
> The incentives are expected to be available next year.
> 
> Sources say the plan also includes a promise to ensure that plug-in or electric cars will make up 20 per cent of the government's fleet by 2020.
> 
> McGuinty had said in January that the province was looking at ways to hasten the arrival of electric cars on its roads, adding Ontario wanted to take advantage of the massive consumer demand for greener vehicles as Ontario's ailing auto industry struggles to transform itself.
> 
> At the time, he also threw his support behind a plan to build battery recharging stations across the province, and applauded a move by California-based Better Place to build a car demonstration and education centre in Toronto and set up an office in the city.
> 
> McGuinty had said in January that financial incentives for buyers was one option he would examine to try to speed up the introduction of electric vehicles on Ontario roads.
> 
> But the government hasn't yet discussed how much money it may be willing to commit to help build the necessary infrastructure for electric cars or encourage automakers to produce electric cars -- a price tag some analysts predict may be steep.
> 
> McGuinty has also, so far, refused to allow low-speed electric cars on Ontario roads, citing safety concerns, even though both Quebec and British Columbia have approved the use of the cars on roads with speed limits under 40 or 50 kilometres per hour.
> 
> The United States has approximately $25 billion earmarked for research and development of green automotive technology, while Canada only invests $500,000 annually.


CTV.ca | Ontario to give incentives for electric cars


----------



## bsenka

MacDoc said:


> $10k incentive  no about my electric scooter.....cough up.....
> 
> 
> 
> CTV.ca | Ontario to give incentives for electric cars


Bribing people with their own money. Awesome.


----------



## EvanPitts

^^^
Of course the "automotive" people were all putting this plan down, you know, because the Auto Industry has never resorted to dishing out incentives or attempting to mooch money from the Governments...


----------



## bsenka

EvanPitts said:


> ^^^
> Of course the "automotive" people were all putting this plan down, you know, because the Auto Industry has never resorted to dishing out incentives or attempting to mooch money from the Governments...


Subsidy is subsidy.. it's all just a grab for my money to try to entice me to spend more of my money. Both sides of that coin are idiots in my book.


----------



## ertman

It is a subsidy, but it is far more than companies trying to get people to buy their cars, or governments just trying to get people to buy "greener" vehicles... people often make this mistake and only look at the short term costs, etc....

But yeah, it is a subsidy to help people spend money. I don't really get it though, as either you are going to buy a certain car at a price range or not. This only makes you have another option to buy a car.

If I was going to buy for example, a Ford Mustang, this subsidy would do nothing for me, but if I were going to buy lets say a smart car for small commutes, this could put another option available to me.


----------



## EvanPitts

ertman said:


> It is a subsidy, but it is far more than companies trying to get people to buy their cars, or governments just trying to get people to buy "greener" vehicles...


I think it levels the field - since Government money has been used to prop up failed automotive companies that ended up failing because they peddle obsolete products that do not fit the market. This is an investment, in that we can use money to encourage new industry and new companies making alternative vehicles that meet emission standards as well as advanced levels of efficiency. For far too long, we have permanently borrowed natural resources to support obsolete thinking, and to continue to push giant sized vehicles that are rarely inhabited.



> I don't really get it though, as either you are going to buy a certain car at a price range or not. This only makes you have another option to buy a car.


It makes advanced technologies available to the common person - since such stuff has been endlessly promised for years, but has never been made available. Of course, Toyota has had huge success with the Prius, and Honda with the Insight, only because those companies undertook to subsidize prices in order to corner the market down the road. GM, on the other hand, simply never bothered, preferring to build obsolete vehicles that simply do not make the grade when it comes to emissions or efficiency - and in fact, pushed people into giant SUVs because they could continue to profit from the tooling they bought in the 60's, and didn't have to bother with safety standards. So right now - we are already subsidizing the obsolete and uncompetitive, and using the fuel of tomorrow to shove around gas sucking garbage that we really do not need.


----------



## SMG

I just hope electric cars are mainstream before they introduce ethanol blend fuel to Atlantic Canada.. I'm not hearing good things about the long-term effects.


----------



## SINC

I've been using at least 10% ethanol based fuel from Husky for the past nine years in my 2001 Suzuki Grand Vitara Limited V-6 / 4 x 4 with no ill effects whatsoever since the day it was brand new. Not a single repair, nor even a tune up, in over 80,000 km. Whatever you've been hearing is likely bunk.


----------



## ertman

EvanPitts said:


> I think it levels the field - since Government money has been used to prop up failed automotive companies that ended up failing because they peddle obsolete products that do not fit the market....


Yes, and no. They are not failing just because they were selling obsolete products, for the last few years, they were doing fine, but it is more the fact they did not have a very diverse portfolio of products, that would be easy to adjust with changing demands based on fuel prices, the economy, social factors, etc. 



EvanPitts said:


> This is an investment, in that we can use money to encourage new industry and new companies making alternative vehicles....
> 
> ....It makes advanced technologies available to the common person - since such stuff has been endlessly promised for years, but has never been made available.


No I get that, I just didn't decide to bring out these arguments based on alot of rhetoric that gets thrown around in threads like this. I actually had it typed out, but decided to delete it, waiting to see if my post would provoke a post that state something similar, which is what happened.

I actually had this discussion with someone the other day. Think about it this way. The government would often give out research grants to perform the same function, except in this case, it is to help make a product commercially viable, taking away the large premium of purchase, and actually creating a situation where business eats most of the R&D costs. This also creates a situation, like you had stated, where the technology gets to be put into the hands of consumers as is always promised but rarely delivered.

If people still don't want to believe that is worth while, people must think of it this way then. Eventually there will be no or atleast limited amount of oil and the technology used in these vehicles will have to be invented, tested and evolve eventually, it will probably be cheaper long term to start this process now, and these subsidies can help that.


I am not disagreeing with you evanpitts, I just stating a relatively agreeing point.


----------



## K_OS

EvanPitts said:


> pushed people into giant SUVs....


Nobody held a gun to there heads and told them to buy a SUV they made that decision on there own.

Laterz


----------



## EvanPitts

SMG said:


> I just hope electric cars are mainstream before they introduce ethanol blend fuel to Atlantic Canada.. I'm not hearing good things about the long-term effects.


The problem with ethanol generally manifests itself in old cars, where it tends to attack the seals in the fuel system - but pretty much all manufacturers migrated to better seals years ago, to Viton or Neoprene, which is resistant. 10% doesn't usually cause any such problems, it is more of a problem once one goes over 20-25% ethanol. One main benefit of ethanol is the lack of problems with fuel lines freezing up in winter, as well as for scouring water vapour out of the gas tank.


----------



## EvanPitts

ertman said:


> Yes, and no. They are not failing just because they were selling obsolete products, for the last few years, they were doing fine, but it is more the fact they did not have a very diverse portfolio of products, that would be easy to adjust with changing demands based on fuel prices, the economy, social factors, etc.


Actually, GM has been in trouble on a number of occasions, and made many moves that worked against them. I think one of their biggest faux pas was that they failed to introduce LEV and ULEV engines (like the other manufacturers did), but instead, reissued their obsolete engines as "Ecotec", which never did make the grade.

I think they pulled out of too many markets for all the wrong reasons. They had the Chevette and couldn't make wads of money - mostly because who was going to plunk down a heap of cash on a Chevette? It was all over the place, where they really just gave up, and let their products slide into the abyss. Cadillac was entirely overhauled by everyone else, Buick was shoved around so bad that they resorted to rebadging trucks as Buicks, etc. Some things they just didn't stick to for long enough, other products were just too shoddy for the price. OnStar was a costly debacle, not because people didn't want it, but it made their products look bad. Like this "feature" would have a satellite inform you that your vehicle was ready to fall apart, or the engine was about to melt down.

They placed far too much cash into dominating NASCAR, while they failed to implement designs that would resist such failures as spraying oil all over a turbocharger. They also talked the big talk, and created the illusion that they would be bringing out cool vehicles that were never to be made available. In every respect, they gave up their position to any other manufacturer. If you wanted speed, Ford and Mopar were ready to dish out as much as you wanted to pay for. If you wanted fuel efficient and reliable, you could buy all of that from the Japanese, etc.

Obsolete - GM has just too many obsolete products, from ancient 350 CID V8s that killed their owner's wallets when gas went to $1.40/L, and so on. Their NEW GM campaign looks like a lot of the old, and I think people are onto it. There are just too many things that need to happen, things that can't be solved by canning Pontiac. They need to bring out modern engine designs that comply with LEV and ULEV standards, they need hybrids and other alternate vehicles - but most of all, GM has to bring out what it shows. If they show the Chevy Volt - they have to bring it out, for sale, and not just five examples in two "selected markets". If they show the SSR, it should be made available, and not five years after the fact, four and a half years after Ford SVT'd it. If they want to bring out something fast, then they have to bring out the real thing, not some rumour of a Stage 4 engine that onkly exists because people will "wait". People don't want to wait - if they want something, they will buy it, so if GM wants to sell it, they better have it - otherwise the customer will simply go and buy some SVT, or Mopar, or whatever.



> Think about it this way. The government would often give out research grants to perform the same function, except in this case, it is to help make a product commercially viable, taking away the large premium of purchase, and actually creating a situation where business eats most of the R&D costs. This also creates a situation, like you had stated, where the technology gets to be put into the hands of consumers as is always promised but rarely delivered.


PNGV was the prime example, where the Big 3 and the Government were going to be gung-ho about alternative fuels. All this accomplished was that the Japanese became paranoid that they may be overhauled, so they got down and dirty and actually came up with their own PNGV. Of course, the Big 3 spent that cash on geegaws and liquid luncheons at The Mustang in Dearborn, and have allowed the Japanese to once again grab the leadership in another industry, just like they took over electronics, televisions, ship building, steel making, heavy equipment, power tools, etc...



> Eventually there will be no or atleast limited amount of oil and the technology used in these vehicles will have to be invented, tested and evolve eventually, it will probably be cheaper long term to start this process now, and these subsidies can help that.


None of this stuff is actually "new" - the auto museum in Oshawa has an example of a hybrid from 90 years ago. Hybrids are nothing new anyways, railroads have used such systems for decades. The reluctance of the Big 3 to innovate really do give lots of ground to various conspiracy style people, because if it looks like fish, smells like fish, tastes like fish - it might be fish.

Examples are rife - GM gave up on Diesels because of all the problems they had years ago, and though they own Detroit Diesel, a company that knows diesels, they never went back. Same with the rest, because instead of reinvesting money when they had half the world market, they are forced to or else in a dwindled market where they have an almost irrelevant amount of market share that dwindles every month, and are picked off at every turn by companies that are more than willing to do GM in.


----------



## EvanPitts

K_OS said:


> Nobody held a gun to there heads and told them to buy a SUV they made that decision on there own.
> 
> Laterz


It helps when GM doesn't make anything worthwhile except for SUVs, and some obsolete garbage based on the ancient J-2000...


----------



## Lawrence

Trouble with electric cars is that no one will hear you,
That may cause more accidents than you can imagine.


----------



## K_OS

EvanPitts said:


> It helps when GM doesn't make anything worthwhile except for SUVs, and some obsolete garbage based on the ancient J-2000...


where are you getting this garbage? and does you browser have the ability to find anything post 1985? please provide me with proof that any GM car in the last 3 years that has used the J-2000 platform. As for LEV all cars sold in California had to be compliant since 2004 unless GM sold a total of 0 cars in California I'm sure that at least most of GM's cars have been compliant.

Laterz


----------



## ertman

EvanPitts said:


> Actually, GM has been in trouble on a number of occasions, and made many moves that worked against them. I think one of their biggest faux pas was that they failed to introduce LEV and ULEV engines (like the other manufacturers did), but instead, reissued their obsolete engines as "Ecotec", which never did make the grade........


There is some really interesting points in the post, but not exactly my point




EvanPitts said:


> I think they pulled out of too many markets for all the wrong reasons.


I agree.





EvanPitts said:


> None of this stuff is actually "new" - the auto museum in Oshawa has an example of a hybrid from 90 years ago. Hybrids are nothing new anyways, railroads have used such systems for decades.


While the idea and even productions of hybrids are not really new, they weren't really any good until recent, they would work, an not necessarily that crappy, they suffered from more problems than what holds back current offerings. Even the railroads have been reluctant in the use and acceptance of hybrids.




EvanPitts said:


> Examples are rife - GM gave up on Diesels because of all the problems they had years ago, and though they own Detroit Diesel, a company that knows diesels, they never went back. Same with the rest, because instead of reinvesting money when they had half the world market, they are forced to or else in a dwindled market where they have an almost irrelevant amount of market share that dwindles every month, and are picked off at every turn by companies that are more than willing to do GM in.


Which is why I am fine with driving a car developed and designed by a foriegn car company.


----------



## ertman

dolawren said:


> Trouble with electric cars is that no one will hear you,
> That may cause more accidents than you can imagine.


Really? Maybe for hitting pedestrians walking aimelessly into traffic. With the amount of soundproofing in cars now, and stereo systems etc, you can't hear any car until they pass you.

Eitherway with many modern cars, in an urban area, you cannot really hear them in advance of collisions. That is why we are suppose to look both ways before crossing the street.


----------



## EvanPitts

K_OS said:


> please provide me with proof that any GM car in the last 3 years that has used the J-2000 platform.


Exactly what I am saying - GM clung to the J-2000 up to the point that they went to this Epsilon platform, which was about 20 years too long. The cars were terrible, and went down hill from that point. Bad paint, bad fit and finish, numerous engine and transmission problems, endless internments with the mechanic - and worst of all, customer service that is so bad that GM blames customers for "lack of maintenance" on issues that are clearly related to bad engineering and poor design.

So GM "changed", but it didn't affect the market, because people fled long ago, and are not coming back. I say this as a long time GM buyer. I really did enjoy my Buick in the day, even though it had numerous little faults, but it was my Chevy that drove me over to Toyota, because the Chevy was a turd that was always at the mechanics. My monthly payment on a Corolla was less than the monthly dish out of cash fixing the Chevy. Multiply this by millions of people that got ripped off - and that is the point, GM simply ripped people off with shoddy goods, and trashed their own market share - while the profits were reaped by the Japanese.



> As for LEV all cars sold in California had to be compliant since 2004 unless GM sold a total of 0 cars in California I'm sure that at least most of GM's cars have been compliant.


I have never seen a GM vehicle that has displayed the official leaf logo of the LEV and ULEV programs, nor have I ever seen those displayed in any GM advertising. I can not say this about Ford, Toyota, Honda or other makes that complied with the LEV and ULEV programs. Perhaps GM has some cars in California that complied with California standards - but they certainly did not have any vehicles that complied with LEV and ULEV outside of California. California is not the only car market, people everywhere want to buy cars that minimize smog and pollution, and for those people, GM was not an option since they failed to get with the LEV and ULEV programs.

It all comes down the GM's main problem over the years - the lack of availability of whatever vehicle, be it a cool looking pickup truck, or a potent high-revving engine, or LEV compliance, or a Hybrid, or whatever - none of that was ever available at a GM dealership near you; while all other makers were catering to those markets. If someone wanted a turbo-diesel, VW handled that. If you wanted a fast pickup truck, Ford SVT handled that. If you wanted a retro-mafia mobile, Chrysler handled that. And so on.

GM even fumbled on things it was sort of good at. Like the Hummer. Want to know why it tanked? Because they turned something that was cool into a squared off turd based on the Yukon, that is ugly as sin with all of that fake chrome. People that wanted cool ended up having to go elsewhere, maybe to a Land Crusher, or a tricked out Mercedes. GM had a good following with the Saturn, which sold everything they made, then turned it into a repository of misfits and oddities, with a plant that was nothing more than a warehouse for fossil equipment, since they farmed it out to everyone else.

All these things added up to failures, just like the very negative PR that GM got saddled with after having scooped billions of dollars from the PNGV program, and actually producing an Electric Car that they ended up stealing back from the owners and crushing them. People that want alternative fuels, well, you can't get them from GM. Meanwhile you can buy Hybrids from the Japanese and from Ford, and ironically, the GM invented Flex-Fuel system (invented for the Brazilian market) is not available from GM in this market - but rather, from Chrysler...

All of these are important points, and in a world where people are now demanding progress, GM is a fossil. People want electric cars, and for all the naysayers, I would say that half of the people I know would be entirely fine with an electric car for their daily uses, at least as a second family car. Hybrids are popular, and both Toyota and Honda are selling everything they make. There are also lots of VW TDIs on the roads. I see an ever increasing number of Chrysler Flex-Fuel vehicles, especially since Ethanol is widely available in the rural areas of Southwest Ontario. I see lots of innovative Ford products, modern and pretty cool, with the promise of some uber-cool cars like the EuroSpec Focus.

What I don't see if any real effort on the part of GM. Sure, they had a commercial for the Volt, with the disclaimer that it may never be available. But then, I do not see GM bringing out modern engines that are LEV or ULEV complaint. I see lots of ads where the "NEW GM" spends much time talking about how shoddy their products were, and how out of touch they have been - which is fine, but it isn't being backed up by anything substantive. All I know is they are closing half their dealers down, chopping off Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer - and little else.

I think it is time that people stop putting down alternative fuels. For many uses, an electric car entirely fits the bill. Most people commute across town, or maybe travel a few miles to the next city over. I know of few people that would actually chew up 200 miles of driving in a day, with the exception of road trips, where one could easily rent something. Most people live in urban areas, with something like half of this province crammed into the GTA. It's time to get with the times, and start bringing forth those things that have been long promised. If GM continues on their path, they will be nothing more than history, since everyone else will simply move on to more progressive and better quality items - just like people have done for the past two decades, while GM lost market share like no other, going from 50% of vehicles made worldwide to under 10%, and falling fast...


----------



## K_OS

EvanPitts said:


> but instead, reissued their obsolete engines as "Ecotec", which never did make the grade.


Oh please yet again with the misinformation the Ecotec's were never reissued engines they had nothing in common with the Quad4 tech of the old 4cyls in the Sunfire/Cavalier and the Ecotec engines are actually quite capable of holding there own against those boring no torque Japanese engines from Honda/Toyota.

Laterz


----------



## K_OS

I wonder if EV'S will suffer the same fate.

STUDY: Despite insurance breaks, hybrids driven more, cost more to fix, and get more tickets

Laterz


----------



## K_OS

EvanPitts said:


> What I don't see if any real effort on the part of GM. Sure, they had a commercial for the Volt, with the disclaimer that it may never be available. But then, I do not see GM bringing out modern engines that are LEV or ULEV complaint. I see lots of ads where the "NEW GM" spends much time talking about how shoddy their products were, and how out of touch they have been - which is fine, but it isn't being backed up by anything substantive. All I know is they are closing half their dealers down, chopping off Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer - and little else.


Give them a break they just came out of Bankruptcy, Apple under Amelio was on a similar road but Jobs intervened and even then Apple took 2 years to return back to profitability so GM will need time and now that it's under the protection of the US government it will have the time that it needs and with some of the products that are in the pipeline they should be able to stay alive, I don't know if there is a iMac equivalent in GM's upcoming products but time will tell.

Laterz


----------



## Lawrence

ertman said:


> Really? Maybe for hitting pedestrians walking aimelessly into traffic. With the amount of soundproofing in cars now, and stereo systems etc, you can't hear any car until they pass you.
> 
> Eitherway with many modern cars, in an urban area, you cannot really hear them in advance of collisions. That is why we are suppose to look both ways before crossing the street.



If only we could teach the cagers to look both ways before changing lanes,
For that matter teach them that brake lights are not signals...

Tell them to put the cell phone down and flick the signal switch, That's easy right?
Apparently not for about 90% of Toronto drivers, Oh well...Hit the air horn.


----------



## Lawrence

ertman said:


> Really? Maybe for hitting pedestrians walking aimelessly into traffic. With the amount of soundproofing in cars now, and stereo systems etc, you can't hear any car until they pass you.
> 
> Eitherway with many modern cars, in an urban area, you cannot really hear them in advance of collisions. That is why we are suppose to look both ways before crossing the street.


Let's face it, Pedestrians are stupid,
Would you walk across a road with your back to oncoming traffic?

Would you walk along the road with a baby carriage instead of the sidewalk?

Course not, That's because you were brought up with a care for your life,
These people are sick, Beyond sick, They have no care for the law.

Complete anarchists and you know what?
They are getting worse, Just like lemmings.


----------



## hayesk

K_OS said:


> I wonder if EV'S will suffer the same fate.
> 
> STUDY: Despite insurance breaks, hybrids driven more, cost more to fix, and get more tickets


Driven more and get more tickets are a statistic applied to a group, not an individual. Buying a hybrid won't necessarily make you drive more or get more tickets - you are in control of that. As for cost more to fix - probably because they are less common. The price will come down as more purchase them.


----------



## CubaMark

New content on the ZENN cars website today...

*PDF Download:*
EEStor to publicly prove its technology imminently


----------



## Dr.G.

ZENN's stock was really up today and now has pulled back somewhat.


----------



## CubaMark

...and now a "leaked" interview with EEStor head Dick Weir....


----------



## CubaMark

A new book of interest....

TWO CENTS PER MILE Will President Obama make NiMH batteries available for electric cars and electric vehicles?


----------



## CubaMark

*Nissan introduces "Leaf"* 



> Nissan has promised that the Leaf, which goes into mass-production as a global model in 2012, will be about the same price as a gas-engine car such as the 1.5 million yen ($15,000) Tiida, which sells abroad as the Versa, starting at about $10,000.
> 
> The car has a range of 160 kilometres on a single battery charge, according to Nissan. The company is targeting initial annual production of 50,000 units for the Leaf at its Oppama plant in Yokohama, including export models.












(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> A new book of interest....
> 
> TWO CENTS PER MILE Will President Obama make NiMH batteries available for electric cars and electric vehicles?


My personal experience with NiMH batteries is that their total lifespan is about 1/10th of what is advertised. We need better solutions than that.


----------



## uPhone

My dad recently bought me a Hummer. I love it.

I absolutely think electric is the way to go, for now, but what REALLY needs to be explored is hydrogen vehicles. Honda already has a Hydrogren vehicle on the road, available to regular consumers. It is not a concept. Hydrogen is the earth's most abundant element and will NEVER run out. The only thing these vehicles produce is water that drips as you drive (when Hydrogen meets Oxygen it obviously makes H20!) 

I love my Hummer. To those of you who hate on Hummers, consider this. Do you think that everyone in America wants to drive a Prius? A Chevy Volt? A Honda Fit? No. People want big cars and that will NEVER change. The size of the vehicle is not what needs to change, what needs to change is the technology inside. (Also, I bet that my Hummer has cleaner emissions than any large sized vehicle you own)

Since buying me my Hummer, my dad wants one for himself as they are truely amazing vehicles.. We have contacted Raser Technologies who have produced the world's first and only electric SUV, and guess what? It's a Hummer. (Picture below) It gets 100 MPG, and is real, not a concept. We are looking to purchase one soon, with a total cost of $130,000. This technology is really amazing and proves that size does not matter when it comes to emissions and energy consumption.


----------



## CubaMark

> It does get the dramatic 100 MPG fuel economy the company claims — as long as you don't go further than 60 miles in a day. The actual, long-range economy is a less headline-grabbing 33 MPG. Much better than a standard H3 for sure, but Raser has not quite yet managed to defy the laws of physics.


(via Jolopnik.com)


----------



## CubaMark

On the ZENN website, there is a new interview with Ian Clifford, CEO of Zenn, on FoxNews (not much said, just FYI).


----------



## Adrian.

uPhone said:


> My dad recently bought me a Hummer. I love it.
> 
> I absolutely think electric is the way to go, for now, but what REALLY needs to be explored is hydrogen vehicles. Honda already has a Hydrogren vehicle on the road, available to regular consumers. It is not a concept. Hydrogen is the earth's most abundant element and will NEVER run out. The only thing these vehicles produce is water that drips as you drive (when Hydrogen meets Oxygen it obviously makes H20!)
> 
> I love my Hummer. To those of you who hate on Hummers, consider this. Do you think that everyone in America wants to drive a Prius? A Chevy Volt? A Honda Fit? No. People want big cars and that will NEVER change. The size of the vehicle is not what needs to change, what needs to change is the technology inside. (Also, I bet that my Hummer has cleaner emissions than any large sized vehicle you own).
> 
> Since buying me my Hummer, my dad wants one for himself as they are truely amazing vehicles.. We have contacted Raser Technologies who have produced the world's first and only electric SUV, and guess what? It's a Hummer. (Picture below) It gets 100 MPG, and is real, not a concept. We are looking to purchase one soon, with a total cost of $130,000. This technology is really amazing and proves that size does not matter when it comes to emissions and energy consumption.


You are claiming that your behaviour is akin to the behaviour of the majority of Canadians. I think the fact that your father purchased you a $50,000 vehicle and is considering purchasing himself a $130,000 novelty vehicles speaks volumes of your exception to the rest of society.


----------



## Adrian.

edit


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## hayesk

uPhone said:


> My dad recently bought me a Hummer. I love it.
> 
> I love my Hummer. To those of you who hate on Hummers, consider this. Do you think that everyone in America wants to drive a Prius? A Chevy Volt? A Honda Fit? No. People want big cars and that will NEVER change. The size of the vehicle is not what needs to change, what needs to change is the technology inside. (Also, I bet that my Hummer has cleaner emissions than any large sized vehicle you own)


People may want large vehicles, and companies may want to continue polluting without penalty, but that doesn't mean that shouldn't change.

And why do you bet your Hummer has cleaner emissions than any large sized vehicle? That hasn't been proven to be true.

Why do you love your Hummer? Do you like blocking the vision of drivers around and you? Do like driving a larger vehicle than you need? Or is it that you like the way heads turn when you drive down the road? (hint: they're looking at the obnoxious car, not you).

Nobody said everyone should want to drive a Fit, Prius, etc. but there are plenty of other alternatives before the Hummer.

People "hate on" Hummers because they're obnoxious. They're bigger than they need to be, they obstruct other drivers' vision, they don't provide practical advantages over other vehicles, and they mainly serve as an ego-extension to those with more money than self-esteem.

I'll except those who live in back country roads and take it off-road on a regular basis, but let's face facts here - most Hummer drivers do not do that.


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## uPhone

hayesk said:


> People may want large vehicles, and companies may want to continue polluting without penalty, but that doesn't mean that shouldn't change.
> 
> And why do you bet your Hummer has cleaner emissions than any large sized vehicle? That hasn't been proven to be true.
> 
> Why do you love your Hummer? Do you like blocking the vision of drivers around and you? Do like driving a larger vehicle than you need? Or is it that you like the way heads turn when you drive down the road? (hint: they're looking at the obnoxious car, not you).
> 
> Nobody said everyone should want to drive a Fit, Prius, etc. but there are plenty of other alternatives before the Hummer.
> 
> People "hate on" Hummers because they're obnoxious. They're bigger than they need to be, they obstruct other drivers' vision, they don't provide practical advantages over other vehicles, and they mainly serve as an ego-extension to those with more money than self-esteem.
> 
> I'll except those who live in back country roads and take it off-road on a regular basis, but let's face facts here - most Hummer drivers do not do that.


Hi, okay - I agree and disagree with you. Let me be clear when I make my claims that I am talking about the only Hummer I own, the H3. The H2 is it's own animal.

1) I live on a side road north of toronto, a dirt road, and I do go offroading. I wanted it because it is the only true luxury offroading vehicle. We also have a Range Rover and Mercedes G55 AMG (both much bigger polluters)

2) The Hummer H3 is proven to be a cleaner vehicle by the US government. The US Government rates it a 7/10 on the Emissions scale, where vehicles such as the Tahoe, Yukon, Hummer H2, all Land Rovers, Toyota FJ Cruiser, Escalade, and many other large sized SUVs get maximum 6/10. You are not correct in saying that the Hummer H3 is a polluter. Certainly the H2 is, I will not deny that, but Hummer made a strategic move with the H3 in creating a much cleaner vehicle. Also, the H3 is NOT classified as a large-sized vehicle. It is a mid-sized vehicle. 

3) That being said, the H3, what I drive, is NOT a big vehicle and does NOT block anyone's view. Your bias forbids you from an open mind in considering that the H3 is actually a very small vehicle. It is about a foot shorter than it's predecessor and is much shorter than many other vehicles. 

4) I do agree that the premise of a Hummer is obnoxious. But really, it's the H2 that is obnoxious. I wouldn't want to drive an H2. That being said, you mentioned, "Do you like the heads turning at the obnoxious vehicle". The honest answer? Yes I do. I'm 17 years old and I drive a thrillingly-controversial luxury vehicle and I love it. I love that I drive to school every day with the coolest car there. Hey, I'm just being honest. But when it's a 50 year old man driving a yellow H2, that's when it is a little pathetic I admit. For the record, not that it matters, my H3 is white. 

5) Stop attacking size. You are kidding yourself if you think that there is anything wrong with the size of the Hummer. It's what people want and it will never change. Why do you think ford invented the F650? Yes, I said F650. The H2 likes like a toy next to it. The Hummer's size serves a purpose of being able to traverse up to 60 percent, as well as major departure angles. It's built for offroading. Sure 70% of Hummer owners dont do it, but the same goes for Jeeps. Pathfinders. Land Rovers. Every Pickup truck ever made. Who cares.

6) Don't underestimate Hummer. It sold to the Chinese for 400 million and even in this down economy, they sold 6000 in the US alone which is saying a lot for such a niche brand. The demand is there and they're not going away.

7) Just to sum up. I do see a lot of your points. But I think that most of your criticisms are toward the H2. I really think that if you had a chance to drive an H3, you'd realize it's an awesome toy.


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## Adrian.

uPhone said:


> Hi, okay - I agree and disagree with you. Let me be clear when I make my claims that I am talking about the only Hummer I own, the H3. The H2 is it's own animal.
> 
> 1) I live on a side road north of toronto, a dirt road, and I do go offroading. I wanted it because it is the only true luxury offroading vehicle. We also have a Range Rover and Mercedes G55 AMG (both much bigger polluters)
> 
> 2) The Hummer H3 is proven to be a cleaner vehicle by the US government. The US Government rates it a 7/10 on the Emissions scale, where vehicles such as the Tahoe, Yukon, Hummer H2, all Land Rovers, Toyota FJ Cruiser, Escalade, and many other large sized SUVs get maximum 6/10. *You are not correct in saying that the Hummer H3 is a polluter.* Certainly the H2 is, I will not deny that, but Hummer made a strategic move with the H3 in creating a much cleaner vehicle. *Also, the H3 is NOT classified as a large-sized vehicle. It is a mid-sized vehicle. *
> 
> 3) That being said, the H3, what I drive, is NOT a big vehicle and does NOT block anyone's view. *Your bias forbids you from an open mind in considering that the H3 is actually a very small vehicle.** It is about a foot shorter than it's predecessor and is much shorter than many other vehicles. *
> 
> 4) I do agree that the premise of a Hummer is obnoxious. But really, it's the H2 that is obnoxious. I wouldn't want to drive an H2. _*That being said, you mentioned, "Do you like the heads turning at the obnoxious vehicle". The honest answer? Yes I do. I'm 17 years old and I drive a thrillingly-controversial luxury vehicle and I love it. I love that I drive to school every day with the coolest car there. Hey, I'm just being honest. But when it's a 50 year old man driving a yellow H2, that's when it is a little pathetic I admit. *_For the record, not that it matters, my H3 is white.
> 
> 5) *Stop attacking size. You are kidding yourself if you think that there is anything wrong with the size of the Humm*er. It's what people want and it will never change. Why do you think ford invented the F650? Yes, I said F650. The H2 likes like a toy next to it. The Hummer's size serves a purpose of being able to traverse up to 60 percent, as well as major departure angles. It's built for offroading. Sure 70% of Hummer owners dont do it, but the same goes for Jeeps. Pathfinders. Land Rovers. Every Pickup truck ever made. Who cares.
> 
> 6)* Don't underestimate Hummer. It sold to the Chinese for 400 million and even in this down economy, they sold 6000 in the US alone which is saying a lot for such a niche brand. The demand is there and they're not going away.*
> 
> 7) Just to sum up. I do see a lot of your points. But I think that most of your criticisms are toward the H2. I really think that if you had a chance to drive an H3, you'd realize it's an awesome toy.


I just really wanted to make sure that everyone could read your post there. I highlighted some of my favourite "points" of yours. Have fun in gr. 11 calculus bud!


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## EvanPitts

^^^
Fanboiism in it's finest hour.

The best thing is the claim that since Ford makes the F650 - that all kinds of people want the F650 for commuting, rather than the regular duty that chassis gets, for giant cube van bodies that one generally needs a DZ license for.

The H3 is just a nasty piece of garbage plunked ontop of a Tahoe chassis - with none of the coolness or cachet of a Humvee. It is a "truck" for the buyers that also look at BMW for their "truck" needs.


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## uPhone

Adrian. said:


> I just really wanted to make sure that everyone could read your post there. I highlighted some of my favourite "points" of yours. Have fun in gr. 11 calculus bud!


I have graduated high school, thanks. Everything you've bolded in my last post is true and if I cared enough I would go through and reference it all but you treehuggers just arent worth it. 

By the way EvanPitts, the F650 is available [also, if not only] as a consumer passenger vehicle and it's the only way I've ever seen it. I have gone offroading with a friend who has one. DZ License? Try G2.


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## CubaMark

EEStor Backer Zenn Motor Seeks DOE Funds to Build in Michigan



> *EEStor Backer Zenn Motor Seeks DOE Funds to Build in Michigan*
> September 2nd, 2009
> 
> _Canada’s Zenn Motor has its eye on Michigan and funding from the U.S. government to develop electric cars using energy storage startup EEStor’s controversial ultracapacitor technology.
> 
> (SNIP)
> 
> The R&D facility Zenn has in mind for DOE funds would initially create only up to 100 research, administrative, electrical, mechanical and software engineering jobs in Michigan_


Way to go, Canada! All these years of putting roadblocks in the way of ZENN... they're looking to go south. In an earlier report, CEO Clifford mused openly about moving production to Mexico... Ah, well. More money for the maquiladoras...


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## CubaMark

> *The race for the perfect battery*
> _Cheap electric cars are almost here—if these claims are true_
> 
> (excerpt)
> Then there’s the granddaddy of the newcomers: a ceramic ultra-capacitor recently announced by EEStor, an eight-year-old company based in Cedar Park, Texas (which has an exclusive contract with Toronto-based Zenn Motors to supply mid-sized passenger cars). The device has no hazardous materials, and EEStor says it holds several times the energy of lithium-ion batteries (which are used to power hybrid cars right now), while keeping its charge for months.


(Source: Macleans.ca)


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## CubaMark

*EEStor Awards Contract to Polarity Inc. to Produce EESU's Voltage Converter*
_August 26th, 2009_

EEStor is the Texas-based company secretly developing an ultrahigh energy density, ultra-low cost, ultra-long -life new energy storage material that in theory would antiquate lithium-ion batteries overnight.

(Source: allcarselectric.com)


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## CubaMark

After Tour of EEStor Facilities, US Congressman John Carter R (TX) says EEStor will "change the entire automotive industry" - EEStor Ultracapacitors: Battery Revolution begins with Electric Cars?


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## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> After Tour of EEStor Facilities, US Congressman John Carter R (TX) says EEStor will "change the entire automotive industry" - EEStor Ultracapacitors: Battery Revolution begins with Electric Cars?


So we keep hearing but so far NADA


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## frankyg

I think this can totally work. If we can combine electric cars with renewables such as hydro, solar, wind and ocean current technology, we could be free of burning way too much fossil fuels. The mad magazine quote is correct, but if the legislation passes for individuals to sell power back to the grid, you may see the general public taking over a large chunk of our power needs. The big guys will hate it but they need to be run out of town anyways. heck out this channel, you can find out about the legislation and renewables of all types.

http://www.abetterenergyplan.ca
YouTube - MrKeepthelightson's Channel


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## CubaMark

Electric car on road to recovery - Nova Scotia News - TheChronicleHerald.ca


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## MacDoc

There is lots going on at Eestor. Had a long chat with my biz financier and Zenn based on Eestor production line situation is anticipating a spring production vehicle....that's production not prototype.

One of the top VCs in Canada, a friend of my guy, confided that he had more into Zenn than any personal investment he had ever made....

Eestor is concerned about reverse engineering and will not reveal much until they can produce in quantity.
The purity of the material used to make the cap was a key milestone and that passed a year ago with third party verification.

We'll see how it unfolds.....


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## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Electric car on road to recovery - Nova Scotia News - TheChronicleHerald.ca



Interesting article, Mark, especially the part that stated that NS uses coal power to generate much of its electricity. 

I would love to buy a ZENN, which is also illegal to drive here in NL. So, I bought 2500 shares way back when it was under $2. Still, I would rather have a ZENN car. :-(


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## CubaMark

*ZENN chief aims to disrupt auto sector*

(PDF download) (Source: BusinessEdge.ca)


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## Dr.G.

We shall see, Mark. All depends upon if the ZENN can be driven on Canadian roads ............... and then if it can withstand the Canadian winters.


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## MacDoc

There will be no issue with Eestor - the problem with the Zenn currently is the low speed...that's not the case with the SuperCap.


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## CubaMark

> A dome-shaped interior cohabits on the futuristic Peugeot BB1 concept with an exterior that's both dynamic and maneuverable. Powered by two lithium-ion batteries, "its characteristics give it the best possible response at start-up (0-30 kph in 2.8-seconds) and excellent in-gear acceleration (30-60 kph in 4-seconds)." Video after the break


Source: TechEblog


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## MazterCBlazter

.


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## MacDoc

Comes the dawn





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Mission Motors 

Even in Technology Review from MIT

http://blog.ttxgp.com/gallery/1/MIT Technology Review TTXGP.pdf





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## MacDoc

Yikes..dem good numbers

Ford Fusion Hybrid Gets 81.5 MPG in Hypermiling Challenge : TreeHugger


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## CubaMark

UL Has Received Request to Certify EEStor's Product - AllCarsElectric.com



> Part of bringing the EESU to market involves having the novel device certified by the Underwriters Laboratories (UL). In fact, the UL has announced it is developing new standards for certifying the large batteries of electric cars.
> 
> If the EESU was really about to see the light of day, one would think EEStor has begun working with the UL. I reached out to them for clarification.
> 
> "We have received a request to certify EEStor's product," said Priya L. Tabaddor, PhD, Global Energy Services, Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.


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## CubaMark

*Canadian Business Leadership Forum 2009*

_On *October 21,* 2009, the best and brightest in Canadian business leadership meet at Toronto's Carlu Conference Center for the 2009 Canadian Business Leadership Forum.
_


> *Belinda Stronach*, Executive Vice-Chairman of Magna International Inc. and Fortune magazine's silver medal winner for their 2002 Most Powerful Women in Business, among her many other accomplishments, follows at 9:30am with Philanthropy as Competitive Advantage.
> 
> *Ian Clifford* and Rahaf Harfoush Talk Cars, Canadian Business and Social Media
> 
> Zenn Motor Company Founder & CEO Ian Clifford takes the stage after Stronach, at 10:40am. Clifford will share his unique perspective on the current state of the auto industry and electric cars in a presentation entitled Leadership in the New Auto Sector.


Everyone's been talking about how ZENN, if EEStor pans out, would be a great buyout opportunity for one of the big automakers (due principally to ZENN's exclusive rights to the EEStor units for passenger cars up to a certain curb weight and ALL aftermarket combustion engine-->EESTor unit conversions). But... with the aquisition of Opel by Magna International, I wonder if Magna might not be keeping an eye on their little Canadian neighbour too...?


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## CubaMark

A quick Google search brings up a bunch of discussion of Magna / ZENN at TheEEStory.com, which seems to pooh-pooh the idea, based on an agreement Magna has signed with another company to go the Lithium-Ion route instead (not that this entirely precludes a future ZENN partnership / buyout).

I also came across this, which we missed somehow in the previous postings...

*Magna Brings Canada Into the EV Game*
_15 July 2009_





> Frank Stronach, chairman of Magna International, told Canada’s CTV “the electric car is a top priority” and the firm will invest $300 million in the project. Although Canada and the United States have spent billions bailing out General Motors and Chrysler — and the Obama Administration is handing out billions more to fast-track fuel-efficient cars — Magna isn’t looking for a handout.
> 
> “Let me put it this way, I would never ask for grants,” Stronach told CTV. He wouldn’t mind a low-interest loan to help finance the project but says the company will go it alone if it has to.


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## CubaMark

*ZENN DROPS THE cityZENN*
*- focus now is on providing the ZENNergy Drive to OEMs.*



> “Integration of the ZENNergy™ drive in OEM vehicles has always been our long term objective. The advancement of the development of EEStor’s technology, combined with the industry’s increased focus on electric vehicle solutions in the past two years, helped us accelerate this decision to focus exclusively on the ZENNergy™ drive,” stated Ian Clifford, Chief Executive Officer of ZENN Motor Company. “Given the timelines involved, introducing the cityZENN directly into the marketplace would have ultimately competed with our prospective OEM and Tier 1 supplier engagements and create unnecessary near-term confusion at the consumer level. At the end of the day, we want to partner with all OEMs so that consumers can drive a variety of electric vehicles across numerous automotive brands with one common denominator -- they are all Powered by ZENNergy™.”


(ZENNcars.com PDF download)


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## MacDoc

That makes way more sense....

••••

Shocker from Frankfurt



> Michael Vaughan
> From Thursday's Globe and Mail
> Last updated on Friday, Sep. 25, 2009 04:36AM EDT
> *Renault Nissan shocked the Frankfurt auto show, now under way in Germany, by rolling out a four-car lineup of all electric vehicles.*
> 
> The Twizy ZE (Zero Emissions) is a two-seat city car about the size of a small motor scooter. The Zoe is a four-seater, the Fluence a five-seater and the Kangoo is a tiny electric van. Each will have a range of approximately http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00244/Renault_Twizy_Ca_244041artw.jpg160 kilometres on a four- to eight-hour charge.
> 
> Renault Nissan has made a massive financial commitment in an effort to become the leading manufacturer and distributor of pure electric vehicles for the mass market. It is not an exaggeration to say that CEO Carlos Ghosn has bet the company on it.
> 
> Vaughan: This didn't happen overnight. How long have you been working on this?
> 
> Ghosn: In 1999, I arrived at Nissan and we needed to revive the company.
> 
> I reviewed all the research taking place in Nissan. There was one particular program that was about batteries. I met with the engineers in charge of this program and they told me about it and I could feel how much faith they had in this development. I said we are going to continue this. I did not stop it.
> 
> I don't think anyone believed at that moment in 1999 that the battery would become such a critical part of our industry. I am glad that 10 years after we are getting the benefits of all this research.
> 
> All this is possible because the lithium ion battery has made so much progress that we are ready to launch electric cars on the market.
> 
> Renault Fluence
> The key is energy storage.
> 
> The key is energy storage. Exactly. This is the key.
> 
> That is why electric cars have a much better future than 10 or 15 years ago. The power density, the size, the cost of the batteries, the reliability of the batteries, the mileage of the batteries are much better than 15 years ago.
> 
> How big do you think your lead is over the rest of the industry?
> 
> I don't know. The competitors don't tell you exactly what they are doing.
> 
> But we know we have a lead. Maybe not in cars that companies bring to auto shows, but we have a lead in cars that we are going to bring to the market.
> 
> We have already announced capacity for batteries, capacity for car assembly.
> 
> None of our competitors have made these kinds of announcements and when you are putting $500-million down or $1-billion down, you make announcements.
> 
> So far we are the only ones engaged so heavily in mass-market, affordable electric cars.
> 
> But doesn't your whole strategy depend on government incentives and assistance to make electric cars affordable?
> 
> Well, you have to at the beginning.
> 
> There is no production today and you are competing with a product that today is produced in tens of millions of units.
> 
> You can not compete at the beginning.
> 
> We need government incentives at least to start the process. But I don't think that we are going to need them for a very long time.
> 
> After three or four years of introducing these cars, they are going to be able to sustain themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carlos Ghosn in a Renault Twizy Z.E. (Zero Emissions) concept car at the Frankfurt auto show.
> Your strategy is pure electric while the Chevrolet Volt has a little gasoline engine on board for recharging.
> 
> Well, you have to make an assessment of where the market is going. You make an assessment of what the public agencies will be deciding.
> 
> The time for zero emissions is now.
> 
> We think oil prices will go up. If it is $70 a barrel in the middle of a recession, imagine what the price is going to be when we get out of the recession.
> 
> We think the environmental regulations are going to become more strict. We think the emerging markets are going to be asking for more and more cars.
> 
> I don't think we can deal with this without going to zero-emission cars. Minus-20, minus-30 per cent is not going to make it.
> 
> At the end of the day, you are going to have to have a product which is totally neutral to the environment and the only solution is electric cars or fuel cells.
> 
> Michael Vaughan is co-host with Jeremy Cato of Car/Business, which appears Fridays at 8 p.m. on Business News Network and Saturdays at 2 p.m. on CTV.


Renault Nissan charged up about electric future - The Globe and Mail


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## MazterCBlazter

.


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## CubaMark

Nissan LEAF Will Emit Artificial ‘Blade Runner’ Engine Noise | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site





> There has long been consideration though to give EVs artificial sounds, primarily for the purpose of notifying the visual impaired, elderly, and children that a car is approaching. An increase in pedestrian accidents coming from EV mass adoption is the concern.
> 
> GM has given this issue some thought too and as per Volt executive Frank Weber, the Volt will be equipped with a pedestrian alert that is driver-activated. It will emit pleasant warning sound when a lever is pulled.
> 
> Nissan, however, appears to be taking a different path.
> (SNIP)
> The resulting sound is reminiscent of the flying cars known as ‘Spinners’ found in the 1982 film Blade Runner, it is a high-pitched metallic whir.


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## CubaMark

Ian Clifford speaks at the Plug-In Hybrid & Electric Vehicles event in Montreal, Sept. 28-30:

He's scheduled in the 13:00-17:00 slot, final speaker. Topic:

*“Re-thinking Energy Storage: The ZENNergy™ Drivetrain Advantage”*

Anyone thinking of attending? The registration ain't cheap, though there is a student discount...


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## CubaMark

CBC News - Technology & Science - Zenn to cease electric car production



> Toronto-based Zenn Motor Company has announced it will cease production of its electric car, which had been hailed as a mini-revolution in the industry.
> 
> Instead, CEO Ian Clifford said the company now wants to focus on marketing its highway-capable drive system to the big car manufacturers.
> 
> The current Zenn vehicle — an acronym for Zero Emission No Noise — is intended for urban commuters and use in places such as resorts, gated communities, airports and campuses.
> 
> The three-door hatchback, made in St-Jérôme, Que., can reach a speed of 40 kilometres an hour and has a range of up to 80 kilometres.
> 
> Clifford said the decision to halt production on the vehicle came down to sales.
> 
> In a statement, the company said it would launch the 2010 model of the current Zenn car in late October but would not confirm when production will cease at the St-Jérôme plant.


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## Dr.G.

Sad, but rather than go head to head with larger companies, they might have the ace in the hole with the unique battery. We shall see.


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## MacDoc

Just a point of clarity - it's not a battery.


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## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


> Just a point of clarity - it's not a battery.


True. Mea culpa.


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## MacDoc

Niiiiiiice

article here
The Audi e-tron concept electric car





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## MacDoc

Too cool :clap:





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[QUOTE*]Nissan's new concept car 'feels like flying' (w/ Video)*
October 8th, 2009 Nissan's new concept vehicle, the "Land Glider"










An employee of Japan's auto giant Nissan demonstrates the new concept vehicle, the "Land Glider", a tandem-ride ultra light-weight electric vehicle with a narrow body at the company's design center at Atsugi city in Kanagawa prefecture, suburban Tokyo. The car shifts its centre of gravity whilst turning by leaning like a motorcycle.[/QUOTE]

Nissan's new concept car 'feels like flying' (w/ Video)


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## Dr.G.

MacDoc, what does your friend, who invested heavily in ZENN, feel now about the company?


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## MacDoc

Have not talked to him recently - I'm sure he will comment when he comes by.


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## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


> Have not talked to him recently - I'm sure he will comment when he comes by.


I would be interested in knowing his views. Paix, mon ami.


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## CubaMark

Here's one that slipped past me...










Is ZENN Motor plugged in? - The Globe and Mail

M


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## CubaMark

EVs to get improved mileage from redox flow batteries





> German researchers say a new type of electric vehicle battery that runs on electrolyte fluid can be recharged as easily as refilling a petrol tank. When the redox flow rechargeable batteries are low, the discharged electrolyte fluid can simply be exchanged at the gas station for recharged fluid.


(Full Story)


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## CubaMark

Rick Mercer on ZENN's announcement that it will cease production of cars:

YouTube - RMR: Zenn Car

(direct link, since YouTube embedding just ain't working for me)


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## SINC

Just click on the "share" button below the video which opens a URL, then paste only the code following the = sign and post it in the YouTube button on ehMac. Easy peasy.

Here you go:




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## MazterCBlazter

.


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## MazterCBlazter

.


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## EvanPitts

^^^
A Peugeot!


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## CubaMark

Honda cracks snack-sized P-NUT concept at LA Auto Show



> The P-NUT, which Honda unveiled at the LA Auto Show this week, is designed for cities and tight urban areas with its small, micro-car footprint. The concept vehicle seats three with its central driving position flanked by two rear seats. This configuration provides legroom roughly equivalent to that of a mid-sized saloon for all passengers.... The windshield - which serves as a head-up display (HUD) for the navigation system and reversing camera - not only offers total above the head visibility, but also extends almost to the floor of the vehicle, broken only by an oversized Honda logo.
> 
> The concept car features a modular rear engine bay designed to accommodate a wide variety of potential powertrain technologies including a conventional small internal combustion engine, a hybrid system, or a battery-electric drivetrain.
> 
> Developed by The Advanced Design Studio of Honda R&D Americas, Inc. in Los Angeles, the P-NUT is currently only a concept with no plans in place to bring it into production.....


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## Dr.G.

What about poor ZENN????


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## MacDoc

They are out of the car making racket - we'll see on the Eestor module.....


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## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


> They are out of the car making racket - we'll see on the Eestor module.....


Yes, that is what I mean. No news so far about the Eestor lately.


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## Dr.G.

ZENN's stock is moving up today. Could be based merly on rumors, however. We shall see.


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## CubaMark

ZENN has issued an update on the "realignment" of its "business operations". I've read through the release quickly, but there seems to be no new information there... PDF download (76kb).



> With the increased emphasis being placed on ZENNergy™ drive solutions, the Company affirmed today that the 2010 model will be the final ZENN LSV model produced and that it will cease production of the ZENN LSV by April 30th, 2010





> “With the valuable experience we’ve gained and the tangible progress EEStor has made over the past year, we are now confidently turning the page in the evolution of ZENN Motor Company from a manufacturer of LSVs into a Tier 1 supplier to automotive and specialty vehicle companies, including other LSV OEMs, all of whom are in great need of a solution such as that represented by ZENNergy™ drive,“ stated Clifford. “Recognizing the significant emphasis government, industry and consumers are placing on the electrification of transportation, we believe that our ZENNergy™ strategy is extremely well-positioned.”


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## CubaMark

And then this comes up.... (jump in the video to 1:40):





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.








> Today at the National Press Club, Lockheed Martin held a hastily thrown together press conference to lay out it's vision for it's future in energy. Unfortunately, talking about EEStor was not on the agenda. However, thanks to a gutsy anonymous blogger, we have one hell of a post-event interview whereupon two of Lockheed's senior most executives demonstrate REAL TROUBLE hiding their enthusiasm about EEStor.


(theeestory.com)


----------



## Dr.G.

I was wondering why the stock has been moving up in the last few trading sessions. Gracias, mi amigo.


----------



## MacDoc

I suspect a few insiders may be buying.
I've heard no negatives from my finance guy who is heavily invested.


----------



## CubaMark

ZENN has posted a PDF of a Globe & Mail article (download)

*Industry* 
*The end of Zenn* 
_*Canadian Zenn Motor Company will stop making Zenn LSV in 2010, focus on drive solutions product *_


----------



## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


> I suspect a few insiders may be buying.
> I've heard no negatives from my finance guy who is heavily invested.


Thanks for the info, MacDoc. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> ZENN has posted a PDF of a Globe & Mail article (download)
> 
> *Industry*
> *The end of Zenn*
> _*Canadian Zenn Motor Company will stop making Zenn LSV in 2010, focus on drive solutions product *_


Thanks for this info as well, Mark. Paz, mi amigo.


----------



## eMacMan

This article does not say how this vehicle is heated during winter but an electric car actually in production in Finland is intriguing.

Think Restarts Electric Car Production - KickingTires



> ...Think announced it has restarted production of its small electric car, the City, at its plant in the tongue-mangling location of Uusikaupunki, Finland.....


For a bit more info check out
ElectricAid.org Test Drives The Think City Electric Car | Revenge of the Electric Car


----------



## CubaMark

*Mass-produced electric car unveiled in Vancouver*





(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark

The electric vehicle scramble 



> I'd like to be more optimistic about Canada's prospects in all this, but I am not. Our federal government has been woefully reluctant to develop a clear and comprehensive energy policy for the nation – one that takes into account what is happening in the alternative fuel/electric car technology race. As a result, the provinces are developing their own ad-hoc plans. It's no way to run a country in a race for jobs with the likes of the United States, China, Great Britain, France, Japan and Germany.
> 
> And make no mistake, many, many good jobs are at stake here. Management consulting firm PRTM says that the "tipping point" in world-wide acceptance of electric vehicles will come within the next few years. By 2020, the so-called “value-chain” associated with the still-nascent global electric vehicle industry is likely to be worth $300-billion or more. More than one million EV-related jobs are at stake here.





> From Ottawa, the sound of silence on energy policy, on the electric and alternative fuel vehicle race, is deafening. But ignoring these developments won't make them go away....Incredible. If the opposition had any sense, it would seize the “green” initiative here.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## CubaMark

*Are electric vehicles really cheaper?*



> We compare the cost of driving 100 km in a gas-powered car to travelling the same distance in an electric vehicle


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## eMacMan

I do a fairly comprehensive cost breakdown on my car. No matter how I slice and dice it, the cost of fuel is less than half of the operating costs. For low mileage drivers this imbalance is often worse.

Other factors: Cost of the vehicle (spread over several years), financing, insurance, routine maintenance, emergency maintenance and so on.

The big unknown with electrical vehicles is the life and cost of replacement of the battery packs also for the moment at least the vehicle cost is at least 25% higher.


----------



## Sonal

Actually, what will be interesting (if extremely nitpicky) is if this would change the amount per kilometer that you'd be able to expense out--it's a somewhat better deal if I can expense at the full rate, but my car operating costs are less than someone else's because I don't require gas.


----------



## CubaMark

*Toronto promises to lead way for electric cars*





> Toronto is joining 13 of the world's largest urban centres pledging to make their cities electric car friendly. Toronto Mayor David Miller said the city is committed to working "with Toronto Hydro and the province to make sure the infrastructure is there for the charging of the vehicles."


(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark

*Electric Smart coming to Canada next year*





> Mercedes-Benz Canada said last week that it will lease a handful of electric Smart fortwo models in the fourth quarter of 2010. That puts in the lead in the race to become the first mainstream manufacturer to sell a fully battery electric plug-in vehicle (BEV) in this country.


----------



## MacDoc

> I do a fairly comprehensive cost breakdown on my car. No matter how I slice and dice it, the cost of fuel is less than half of the operating costs. For low mileage drivers this imbalance is often worse.
> 
> Other factors: Cost of the vehicle (spread over several years), financing, insurance, routine maintenance, emergency maintenance and so on.
> 
> The big unknown with electrical vehicles is the life and cost of replacement of the battery packs also for the moment at least the vehicle cost is at least 25% higher.


EVs early on will more likely be a second vehicle for shorter trips and single person commutes.

That's where the savings will kick in.

Battery packs are generally pretty long lived - longer than most keep the vehicle. But resale ??? who knows - I suspect a rapid depreciation as technology improves.

Bottom we need EV AND cheap to make the switch worth while on a big scale.


----------



## MacDoc

Speaking of batteries.....might be the breakthrough long awaited....



> *Digital Quantum Battery Could Boost Energy Density Tenfold*
> 
> .


Digital Quantum Battery Could Boost Energy Density Tenfold


----------



## Dr.G.

I get the sense that ZENN is missing the boat, or that their technology is just not there to market at all. We shall see.


----------



## MacDoc

Zenn is not a battery. Sit tight - don't fret.


----------



## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


> Zenn is not a battery. Sit tight - don't fret.



Yes, I guess this is good advice. We shall see. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## MacDoc

Or bail on half now and plunk into Apple or TD Bank.


----------



## Dr.G.

Actually, I sold some of my profits and put it into BCE and Aliant before they started to take off.


----------



## MacDoc

Good for you. :clap:
Zenn is a moon shot but my guy who is involved says nothing to worry about.. he also sold a chunk tho and is forever moaning about not doing Apple a year ago..


----------



## Dr.G.

Apple is way too expensive for me these days. My most expensive stock is Shoppers Drug Mart. Still, I have been putting my profits from Fortis into wind power companies, geothermal companies, solar energy companies and I still have my shares of ZENN. We shall see.


----------



## MacDoc

WOW!! 



> *Forget the Tata Nano, Oklahomans can get a new electric car for $865!*
> 
> by Jeremy Korzeniewski (RSS feed) on Dec 23rd 2009 at 9:04AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When automotive talk turns cheap, the most common vehicle that comes up is the Tata Nano, which currently holds the title as the Cheapest New Car in the World and is only available in India. So, Americans, how would you like to snag a brand-new electric car for the low, low price of just $865 right here in the United States? If you happen to live in Oklahoma, you can do just that... sort of.
> 
> There's plenty of fine print, naturally. For instance, the electric car in question, the Kandi Coco, is really a Low Speed Vehicle (or LSV) that is capped by law to a top speed of 25 miles per hour and restricted to roads with speed limits of 35 mph or less. And yes, it's made in China and looks something like half a Smart Fortwo. Still, the Coco carries an MSRP of $10,599 and you may be able to score one dirt cheap thanks to a couple of available state and federal rebates.
> 
> The first deduction comes from the federal government and cuts the price by $4,435. Next, the State of Oklahoma deducts another $5,299 from the starting price for a total rebate of $9,734. Do the math, and that equals one Kandi Coco for $865 – but only if you live in Oklahoma, and only if you make the purchase before the end of the year. Now... go out and get that giant red bow before it's too late. And don't forget about the free EV option.


----------



## eMacMan

Interesting, If your Oklahoma State tax bill exceeds $5300 this might be very attractive. 

Of course people earning over $110,000 a year in a state with an oil based state economy are not too likely to be worried about saving money on in-town driving.


----------



## CubaMark

An update from ZENN (64kb PDF download) that says... well... nothing of great interest. Just that 


> "its company information will be made available via Standard & Poor's Market Access Program, an information distribution service that enables subscribing publicly traded companies to have their company information disseminated to users of Standard & Poor's Advisor Insight. The company information to be made available through this program includes share price, volume, dividends, shares outstanding, company financial position, and earnings."


A quick check of GM-volt and TheEESTORy.com blogs reveal nothing new from ZENN or EESTOR. Are we going to have a New Year's Eve announcement?

ZENN stock, as of 5:19pm Eastern on Wednesday, 30 December 2009, is at $3.71, off 3.64%.


----------



## CubaMark

...in non-ZENN news... here's some ammo for the "electrics suck in cold weather"...

MINI E Electric Car Performance in Cold and Ice is Not Good



See also the Washington Post article on the topic.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> An update from ZENN (64kb PDF download) that says... well... nothing of great interest. Just that
> 
> 
> A quick check of GM-volt and TheEESTORy.com blogs reveal nothing new from ZENN or EESTOR. Are we going to have a New Year's Eve announcement?
> 
> ZENN stock, as of 5:19pm Eastern on Wednesday, 30 December 2009, is at $3.71, off 3.64%.


Sadly, I don't foresee any announcements today from ZENN. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

Did EESTOR miss another deadline? Signs are pointing to "yes"



> is it officially time to give up on EESTOR? Technically, we have 12 months to wait and see if Ian Clifford, the CEO of Zenn Motors, comes through on his promise to demonstrate the semi-magical-sounding energy storage unit in 2010. But silence from company that is partnering with EESTOR on the quick-charging ultracapacitor is lighting up the discussion boards over at EESTORY. It's not like the companies have a stellar track record of meeting deadlines.
> 
> See, Zenn was supposed to get demonstration electrical energy storage units (EESU) to test by the end of 2009. The forum participants have been waiting for an official announcement from the car company, which said it would make a statement if any "material event" took place. Since no announcement has been issued and eveyone's in agreement that delivering the EESUs would be a material event, it appears that no such EESUs were delivered. There isn't proof one way or the other, of course, but leaving questions like this up in the air doesn't exactly build confidence. If nothing else, there's now a case to be made that hype maintenance is alive and well in 2010.


...from the comments section...



> *Nick From Montreal*
> 3:43pm (1/04/2010)
> 
> Zenn is a pump & dump stock market operation and their only product are worthless share certificates & the press releases they use to trap new "investors".
> 
> Let me remind you that Canadian stock regulators are pussycats who *never* police their stock markets. This is why Montreal & Toronto are a haven for scam artists & telemarketers. Only the US SEC means business.
> 
> If you have a 10 foot pole, now is a good time to use it on Zenn.


(AutoBlog Green)


----------



## Dr.G.

Not very good news to read, Mark. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

*Lutz: Nissan Rolling the Dice on the LEAF*





> When the Volt concept was first unveiled it was met with significant skepticism, especially from competitors. It was believed at the time that lithium-ion technology was not ready for the mass production automotive application. One of the strongest naysayers in those days was Toyota. GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz even promised Toyota they would have ‘egg on their face’ after GM proved it could be done.
> He was right. Three years later the Volt battery production plant has begun operations, and even Toyota itself has committed to lithium-ion powered plugin Priuses that will roll out later this year, and go on sale next year.


(GM-VOLT)


----------



## Dr.G.

Sadly, ZENN is slowly slipping away ............ both the stock and from public interest.


----------



## CubaMark

*A ZENN update*




> *ZENN MOTOR COMPANY EXPANDS LEADERSHIP TEAM TO SUPPORT STRATEGIC GROWTH*





> Toronto, Ontario –January 18 , 2010 – ZENN Motor Company Inc. (“ZMC” or the “Company”) (TSX-V ZNN), a leading developer of zero emission transportation solutions and technologies today announced the appointment of Patrick Kinsie to the position of Vice President, Business Development.
> 
> Mr. Kinsie brings to ZMC over twenty years of automotive business-to-business experience, including as Vice-President, Sales & Advanced Engineering with Stackpole Limited (now Gates Canada), a leading manufacturer of powertrain components, systems, and assemblies and a member of Tomkins plc. Throughout his career, Mr. Kinsie has distinguished himself with a proven, results-oriented track record that includes international sales to the top global automotive Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM). He holds a Mechanical Engineering degree from the University of Waterloo.
> 
> (more in the PDF Download)


----------



## CubaMark

and also today...

*EEStor Awarded New Patent*



> In yet another mystery chapter from the EEStory, we find that EEStor has been granted patent 11/453,581. Originally filed in June 2006, this patent for a METHOD OF PURIFYING BARIUM NITRATE AQUEOUS SOLUTION, had it's patent Issue Notification mailed on Dec 30,2009 and the Patent Grant Mailed on January 19, 2010. At first look, it appears to have stayed under the radar until now.
> 
> If you examine the Image File Wrapper, you'll notice some interesting references to arguments made by Carl Walter Nelson. Also, the prosecution of this patent included a telphonic interview with EEStor's representative John Schell. What was discussed? "Applicants believe the step-wise purification provides benefits such as removing strontium while keeping barium in solution."


----------



## Dr.G.

Mark, there might be hope yet for ZENN. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

An update from TheEESTORy.com:

EEStor News, Reviews, discussion forums, info on EEStor Ceramic batteries, ZENN Motor Company, ZMC, LightEVS and Lockheed Martin



> Veteran TheEEStory.com user BigMig proposes that EEStor's EESU (Electrical Energy Storage Unit) is a new invention. A "Memory Capacitor" as predicted by Prof. Chua of Berkley. Prof. Chua can be seen predicting such a new invention, here, at 45:54 (visit site for video)


(TheEESTORy.com)


----------



## CubaMark

*Toyota Makes Deal to Secure its own Lithium Supply in Argentina*





> Electrification of the automobile depends on the natural salt lithium. Lithium is found predominantly in Asia and South America where vast stores are present in salt lakes and salt flats.
> As electrified automobiles are built on mass production scale and in ever increasing volumes, ensuring supply of lithium to battery makers becomes critically important.
> Though Toyota appears at the surface more conservative about using lithium ion batteries in cars, relying more on older nickel metal hydride batteries in their current hybrid lineup, there is ample evidence the automaker is working diligently to line up their future supply line. These efforts will both assure ample supply is available to meet demands but will also allow them to push prices down and maximize profit.


(story continues at gm-volt.com)


----------



## CubaMark

*ZENN Motor Company Reports Fiscal 2009 Year End Results*



> _"2009 was both a challenging year and an exciting year for the Company," stated Ian Clifford, Chief Executive Officer. "There is no question that the economic turmoil had a profound effect on this year's results; unit sales declined and it required increasingly greater incentives to attain what results there were."
> 
> "Through all the challenges however, there have been some significant achievements that we believe bode well for the Company. In the year, we had EEStor release their permittivity results which was well received, we were able to raise capital in an extremely unstable and challenging market environment and we increased our equity investment in EEStor," said Clifford.
> 
> "We have also refined the focus of our energies and resources where we believe they will optimize shareholder value. To this end, as previously announced, we have decided not to bring the cityZENN to market as a commercial product and to cease production of the ZENN LSV in 2010. Instead, the Company's strategic focus going forward will be on its ZENNergy™technologies and solutions, designed to capitalize on the unique characteristics expected of EEStor's capacitor-based energy storage technology. We are excited about the ZENNergy strategy; it builds on our experience from the cityZENN project and the ZENN LSV and is complementary to many electric vehicle initiatives being undertaken today by OEMs and Tier 1 suppliers in the automotive and specialty vehicle industries."_


(Full document available here)

(via TheEEESTORy.com)


----------



## Dr.G.

"Instead, the Company's strategic focus going forward will be on its ZENNergy™technologies and solutions, designed to capitalize on the unique characteristics expected of EEStor's capacitor-based energy storage technology." We shall see ................


----------



## CubaMark

ZENN is mentioned in this GreenTechMedia article...



> Market researchers predict that the ultracapacitor (a.k.a. supercapacitor or double-layer capacitor) market will grow rapidly in the coming years, reaching $500 million by 2011 or 2012. This growth will likely be driven by the automotive and transportation sector, as well as by applications in renewable energy, consumer electronics and industrial power management.





> Of course, if you're discussing ultrcapacitors, the conversation eventually turns to the topic of EEStor, the mysterious ultracapacitor start-up that promises a disruptive leap in performance.
> 
> *Zenn Motors*, B and Ed attest the claims are genuine. I asked Maxwell's CEO about EEStor and his comments were diplomatically limited to the following observation:
> 
> "I'd be more than happy to compare our data to theirs," but "I haven't seen a prototype." He added, "My experience with technology is - there are many things that are possible. The question is - can you make money, can you make a profit, can you make it work and will anybody buy it?"
> 
> EEStor has received funding from Kleiner Perkins, although Kleiner may have elected not to participate in their most recent funding round. Other VC-funded start-ups working in this field are EnerG2 and Graphene Energy.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> ZENN is mentioned in this GreenTechMedia article...


CM, all I can say is "We shall see". I am hopeful, but we shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

*Build your own electric car with Trexa*





> Trexa has revealed details of a lithium-powered, all-wheel vehicle development platform that will enable engineers and developers to create custom "vehicle apps", doing for builders of electric vehicles what the iPhone did for application developers. Modular and scalable, the standard Trexa platform will feature an aluminum, carbon steel tubing and thermoplastic shell containing open source and user programmable electronics and advanced battery technology.





> The standard platform is made from welded and bonded aluminum, carbon steel tubing and fiber-reinforced thermoplastics and will have an 80 inch wheelbase with a curb weight of 1,250 lb. The Trexa all-wheel drive platform should give 0-60mph in eight seconds, features programmable gearless 2-speed transmission that uses regenerative braking, has a top speed of 100mph and a range of 105 miles with 21kWh of lithium iron phosphate battery power installed. Recharge time is said to be four hours.


(GizMag)


----------



## Dr.G.

Wonder how this car could get certified to drive on the road, Mark?


----------



## CubaMark

Good question, Dr. G. I'm unclear on the regulatory exemptions for things like "kit cars" that exist in the U.S. as they pertain to Canada. For example, I'd be very pleased if I could mate this undercarriage to a VW Beetle (original) body... (and I'd be *thrilled* if I could do that with a ZENN Powertrain, but alas...).

The questions that arise: would Transport Canada allow it on the road? What about crash safety?


----------



## CubaMark

*Auto bodywork composite doubles as a battery*





> The problem is clear. Hybrid cars and EVs rely on batteries for power, but batteries are bulky and heavy, causing the car to use up more energy. But what if a car's bodywork was made of a strong, lightweight material that could store and discharge electrical energy just as a conventional battery does? In pursuing this goal, researchers at the Imperial College London are developing a key building block for the hybrid car of the future, and the implications go way beyond automobiles - think wafer thin mobile phones and laptops that don't need a separate battery because they draw power from their casing.


(GizMag)


----------



## CubaMark

*EEStor Competitor A123 Systems Asks Uncle Sam for $1-Billion*






> According to a FOIA release from the US Department of Energy, battery manufacturer-in-the-making, A123 Systems (a company whose founder once tried to replicate an EEStor EESU) has applied for $1-Billion in loans as part of the 2007 Energy Independence & Security Act. The list of applications for the Department of Energy program is a who's who & who's new of automotive technology including the big 3, Ford ($11-Billion request), Chrysler ($8.5-Billion request) and GM ($11.8-Billion request).
> 
> Notably present are previously discussed application listings (with amounts included) from Kleiner Perkins investments Fisker Automotive, V-Vehicle, & Th!nk North America. The combined request of these entities likely exceeds $1-Billion making Kleiner one of the largest enthusiasts of using government funding for risky start-up ventures. Kleiner Perkins has investments in 2 stealth battery companies and EEStor Inc., the pre-eminent stealth energy storage manufacturer in the world.
> 
> It is interesting to note that the funds Fisker apparently applied for were smaller than those they received.


(TheEESTORy.com)


----------



## Dr.G.

Mark, you always seem to bring about news that influences ZENN ............ Gracias, mi amigo.


----------



## CubaMark

*TREXA announces pricing details for DIY electric car*





> TREXA announcing a base price of *US$15,999* for the lithium-powered, modular platform which is designed to facilitate the creation of custom "vehicle apps".
> 
> “The only way to reduce cost of electric drive technology is through competition and innovation," says TREXA’s CEO, Seth Seaberg. If we are to make a real difference, there must be a groundswell of hundreds, even thousands of new companies competing to develop the clean transportation solutions of tomorrow. We believe that it’s time we put the automotive industry back into the hands of the people, by offering them a cost-effective, well-supported vehicle platform to design and build for.”
> 
> While we now know the base price, the "unlimited design possibilities" promised by the platform of course means that pricing will vary depending on the components required. TREXA says it will release more detailed pricing options later this year.


(GizMag)


----------



## MacDoc

state of PHEV - a very neat Piaggio 4 way vehicle included that might be on my target list.
Ford Transit PHEV is so far our first choice for the biz van replacement.










Plug In America - Plug-in Vehicle Tracker


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting looking cars, MacDoc. Is your friend still keen on ZENN?


----------



## MacDoc

He was in Florida now I'm in S Africa so no news for a good while..


----------



## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


> He was in Florida now I'm in S Africa so no news for a good while..


Just great ............... while we freeze in Canada hoping for ZENN to become a big Canadian story, you folks are basking in the sun.  Enjoy yourself, mon ami. Paix.


----------



## CubaMark

*A little Olympic humour from TheEESTORy.com blog...*

*Zenn Motor Company's Stock Takes Gold In Downhill*





> Zenn Motor Company claimed victory today in the 2010 Winter Olympic stock downhill event. "It was like our skis never touched the ground," Zenn President Brian Cott declared afterwards in a Vancouver watering hole, disguised with a fake mustache. The race included over 80,000 securities from around the world. "We weren't expecting to enter the competition, it just sort of happened," remarked Ian Clifford, after knocking back two liters of Kentucky bourbon.


Meanwhile... some interesting reading at TheEESTORy.com blog...

*Kleiner's EEStor SMEs? Penn State. Hello?*


----------



## CubaMark

And... what the "big boys" are doing...



*Opel Flextreme GT/E Extended Range Electric Car*



> The vehicle is called the Opel Flextreme GT/E. Readers may remember the initial Opel Flextreme small crossover concept from 2007. The new vehicle is a large sleek muscular sedan that has a 0.22 coefficient of drag. Clearly GM learned its lessons on revealing electric show cars with very high drag coefficients (wink).
> Like the Volt, it is a 4 seater.


(GM-volt.com)


----------



## CubaMark

*And now... the HumanCar!
HumanCar aims for a healthy planet with healthy drivers*




















> At first glance it might look a bit like an elongated pedal car for kids, but its designers are convinced the HumanCar Imagine PS NEV is a serious player in the search for cleaner, greener ways to get around. The vehicle converts the rowing motion of the driver and any passengers into rotational thrust to charge a battery and power the vehicle in conjunction with an electric motor. So not only is it healthy for the planet – it is healthy for the occupants too. And as an added bonus the vehicle can also be used store energy and act as a backup power generator to provide electricity to the home.


(More photos and story at GizMag)


----------



## CubaMark

ZENN's Annual General Meeting has been announced (Dr. G: You going?  )

*Wednesday, March 24, 2010
4:30pm in the Gallery
TMX Broadcast Centre
The Exchange Tower
130 King Street West
Toronto, ON*​


----------



## CubaMark

...and a blog on EVs that may be of interest:

*In the Driver's Seat*


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> ZENN's Annual General Meeting has been announced (Dr. G: You going?  )
> 
> *Wednesday, March 24, 2010
> 4:30pm in the Gallery
> TMX Broadcast Centre
> The Exchange Tower
> 130 King Street West
> Toronto, ON*​


No, CM. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

Some EESTOR news of interest...

*Counterintelligent? National Security Agency Seeks EEStor Intelligence*



> Website statistics for the barium titanate blog and TheEESTory.com show that someone whose traffic originates from the md procurement office (what some consider the contracting office of the NSA) has been lurking on the site for quite some time. Interestingly, it may be more than one individual since the traffic originates from up to 5 separate networks. Either this individual moves around for his/her job or there is more than one interested party at NSA keeping tabs on EEStor information. Interestingly, some of the recent traffic has arrived via google searchers for "eestor scam."
> 
> Who are these people at NSA gathering EEStor information? Are they making sure nothing spills out? Are they working for private industry and orchestrating a dirty tricks campaign on behalf of EEStor competitors? Is it an old friend of Dick Weir's or Carl Nelson's--both of whom worked at one time for the CIA? Or is it just the janitor who occasionally hacks into the most secure, well-logged network in the world to check up on his investments?




(TheEESTORy)


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla claims engineers' deaths won't derail new model*





> The death of three Tesla engineers in a plane crash last month was a heavy blow for the tight-knit Californian electric car maker, but it is holding onto its plan of producing and selling the new Model S within three years, its chief designer said Wednesday at the Geneva Motor Show.
> 
> “The plane crash was hard to absorb,” Franz von Holzhausen told The Associated Press. “We have to all rally and pick up the slack.”
> 
> Doug Bourn, a senior electrical engineer; Andrew Ingram, an electrical engineer; and Brian Finn, a senior interactive electronics manager, died when their Cessna struck power lines in fog near Tesla's East Palo Alto headquarters Feb. 17.
> 
> Von Holzhausen said Tesla was already scouring the auto and aerospace industry for talent to meet its ambitious schedule of rolling out its second all-electric model before the end of 2012.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## CubaMark

Man... I go away for two weeks to get hitched and all the electric world goes nuts. Lots of news on ZENN, EESTOR, Mitsubishi and Nissan, etc.

First, ZENN:

*ZENN MOTOR COMPANY ORGANIZATIONAL UPDATE *(PDF, 76kb)



> The Company has ceased production of the ZENN LSV and the successful sell-down of remaining inventory and ground stock is largely complete. As such, the Company has been able to complete planned organizational changes that reflect its transition from manufacturer to solutions developer. This has resulted in an overall reduction of 15 permanent employees that supported the sales, marketing and production of the ZENN LSV. These changes, along with other initiatives and the previously announced closure of the Company’s Saint Jerome production facility, will significantly reduce the Company’s on-going rate of spend.
> 
> “The entire staff is to be commended for their continued professionalism during this period of transition,” stated Ian Clifford, Chief Executive Officer of ZENN Motor Company. “With these changes, we are able to ensure maximum focus of our human and financial resources towards executing on our ZENNergy strategy.”
> 
> The Company will elaborate upon its status and plans at its upcoming Annual and Special Meeting of Shareholders being held on March 24, 2010 at the TMX Broadcast Centre which will also be webcast.


*MORE ZENN NEWS:*

*Zenn Motor Company New Executive Short List*

*Zenn Motor Company BoD Botches Harrassment Incident?*


*OTHER ELECTRIC CAR NEWS:*

*Mitsubishi Officially Prices iMiEV at $58,157 in UK*

*Nissan LEAF: $44,300 USD?*

*Chevy Volt: $30,000 to $40,000 EST*


----------



## CubaMark

So...... the editor over at TheEESTORy.com is less-than-impressed following ZENN's Annual General Meeting...



> In my unhumble opinion, the single biggest challenge for Zenn at this point in time is to prove that the burn rate is actually accomplishing something tangible and concrete when placed against the backdrop of the fact that no one knows when EEStor might announce something.


ZENN's AGM


----------



## CubaMark

ZENN has made it's online transition, now focused entirely on the ZENNergy electric drivetrain..

ZENN Motor Company


----------



## CubaMark

And... the *White House will buy the first 100 Chevy Volts!*





> “After decades in which we have done little to increase auto efficiency, those new standards will be finalized, which will reduce our dependence on oil while helping folks spend a little less at the pump,” he said.
> 
> Those new fuel economy standards he said “will save 1.8 billion barrels of oil overall,” which is is equivalent he said of “taking 58 million cars off the road for an entire year.”
> 
> Obama also said that his administration “is doubling the number of hybrid vehicles in the federal fleet.” This amounts to 5603 hybrid vehicles.
> 
> Among them, the administration said it would “purchase the first 100 plug-in electric vehicles to roll off American assembly lines,” which is identified as Chevrolet Volts.


*UPDATE: Whoops!*



> _UPDATE: GM has issued an official response about the White House’ offer to buy the first 100 Volts:_
> 
> We are pleased to see that the Federal government is interested in the greening of their vehicle fleet. Media speculation has led to reports that the GSA and DOE will be buying the first 100 Chevrolet Volt’s because we will meet this criteria. At this time we have no further details regarding these purchases.



(GM-VOLT.com)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> ZENN has made it's online transition, now focused entirely on the ZENNergy electric drivetrain..
> 
> ZENN Motor Company


Now, all they need is to succeed. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

Some interesting implications of the new self-balancing technology, taking Segway a step further...


*Honda's self-balancing U3-X on show*



> Honda's U3-X personal mobility device which so impressed us at the Tokyo Motor Show last year has made its first appearance on U.S. shores. The unique multi-directional, self-balancing one-wheeler is currently taking part in a three day demonstration New York Marriott Marquis Hotel in Times Square with a second event scheduled for April 13-15, at the 2010 Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) World Congress in Detroit, Michigan.
> 
> While it looks like a high-tech unicycle, the U3-X and the technology that underlies it could have far reaching implications on the way we - and robots - get around in the 21st Century. It uses the world’s first omni-directional driving wheel system (Honda Omni Traction Drive System) to achieve smooth movement in any direction along with the company's proprietary balance-control system evolved from research into human walking dynamics for ASIMO the humanoid robot.






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






(GizMag)


----------



## CubaMark

*How Nissan Can Lease the Leaf EV for $349 per Month*





> One of the more dramatic elements of Nissan’s Leaf EV pricing announcement is the remarkably low lease price of $349 per month. Consider that the MINI E is being leased for $850 per month, and the Leaf is a much more-refined, feature-filled and road-ready vehicle.
> 
> Also take into account that the average driver driving 1000 miles per month, at $3 per gallon of gas, and 25 mpg, will save about $100 per month in fuel costs by using electricity.
> 
> So how has Nissan created such a striking number?
> 
> The trick is that they have incorporated the $7500 federal tax credit into the lease payment.


Read more at GM-Volt.com


----------



## dona83

I expect it to be $600 or so north of the border...

I'm still very excited about the Leaf though. I expect it to be my second car in the next couple of years.


----------



## BigDL

*GM EN-V Concept*

Has this a chance or just future casting a hopeless dream?









Wired said:


> A lot of people laughed when General Motors rolled out the electric EN-V city car last month, but the underlying principle driving its creation is sound: As our cities grow ever more crowded, we need to seriously rethink personal mobility.
> 
> Sixty percent of the world’s population will live in urban areas by 2030, and there will be as many as two billion cars on the road. Clearly mass transit and smart growth will play increasingly important roles, but the automobile isn’t going anywhere. GM isn’t alone in looking for ways to build cars that pollute less and take up less space. Volkswagen’s bullet-shaped L1 diesel-hybrid concept is another example of a redefinition of the car.
> 
> “We need to find a solution for emerging markets in particular, where we’re expecting a lot of our growth in big citieis,” Chris Borroni-Bird, who led the EN-V project, says in a video explaining the project....


 Wired Article Here





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## cdnMike

Considering the vast array of options for power generation, no I don't think electric cars are a bad idea.

In fact in a place where most of your power comes from renewable and GREEN sources like hydro-electricity (which is where I believe most of Ontario's power comes from), it's possible to have a very low carbon-footprint with electric cars.


----------



## CubaMark

*3% of VWs Going Pure Electric by 2020: Dr. Karl-Thomas Neumann, Volkswagen's Master of Electrification*


----------



## MacDoc

> n fact in a place where most of your power comes from renewable and GREEN sources like hydro-electricity (which is where I believe most of Ontario's power comes from), it's possible to have a very low carbon-footprint with electric cars.


40% nuclear, 40% hydro and still too much coal but at least the end for that is nigh.
Ontario is going to partner Quebec on a big hydro project and someday actually might build a few more nukes 

The insurance industry and the provinces need to get creative and progress on electric vehicles.


----------



## CubaMark

A ZENN / EESTOR update from gm-volt.com which amounts to nearly "no news".

The only tidbit that may be of interest:



> *EEStor founder Dick Weir has just stated in an interview “People say we’re late. We’re not late! Zenn put out some things but we didn’t authorize those statements.”*


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> A ZENN / EESTOR update from gm-volt.com which amounts to nearly "no news".
> 
> The only tidbit that may be of interest:


Well, better late than never, CubaMark. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

General Motors has revealed their Chevy Volt-based MPV crossover vehicle:



(IS THERE BBCODE THAT WILL ALLOW FOR IMAGE RESIZING?)

Those interested in following the development of the Chevrolet Volt (coming to dealers in 2011), check the blog GM-VOLT.com


----------



## CubaMark

*Volkswagon offers an attractive electric taxi concept....*





> The era of the electric vehicle is drawing nearer (albeit excruciatingly slowly) and with Volkswagen set to get its first EV into showrooms in 2013, its latest EV concept indicates how the world's third largest auto maker is reading the market. Dubbed the Milano Taxi, the concept is a long overdue shot at getting a purpose-built electric cab into major cities. The 115 PS vehicle can reach 74 mph, travel 186 miles between charges and be recharged to 80 percent of capacity in just over an hour.
> 
> The 115 PS (113.42 hp) motor is fed by a lithium-ion battery integrated into the underside of the taxi concept, with a storage capacity of 45 Kilowatt-hours. This, combined with a kerb weight of 1,500 kg, allows the Milano Taxi concept to reach 74 mph.


(GizMag)


----------



## MacDoc

> *More myths busted about electric cars*
> April 27, 2010 By Jim Motavalli Think City plug-in car
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recently went to Finland to drive the all-electric Think City plug-in car (thinkev.com), which is already on European roads and coming to the U.S. later this year. To help it have a soft landing, Think CEO Richard Canny (who spent 25 years at Ford) put together these nine myths about electric vehicles (EV). I've had my own version, but Richard's list is quite different and well worth sharing. He's not an objective party, of course, but he has hands-on experience.
> 
> 
> Here are Canny's nine electric vehicle myths:
> 
> 1. You are just moving the pollution out of the cities to the countryside.
> 
> Busted: Electric vehicle motors are three-to-five times more efficient than gasoline-powered vehicles. While it's best to power EVs from renewable energy sources (which are growing quickly), the efficiency of EVs makes them cleaner, producing less carbon, under any situation -- even when they are charged using coal-fired electricity.
> 
> 2. Customers will never buy a car with less than a 200-mile range.
> 
> Busted: So-called "range anxiety" diminishes when people get used to driving EVs on a daily basis. It's just like charging a cell phone overnight. You plug it in, and in the morning it's ready to go, fully charged. As more EVs hit the road, businesses and cities will add charging points to encourage EV use. EVs can also be fast-charged (our system goes from zero to 80 percent charged in just 15 minutes) to help cover those rare situations when an EV will be needed to cover more than 100 miles in a single day.
> 
> 3. The battery won't last.
> 
> Busted: EV batteries are designed to last at least 10 years and more than 100,000 miles. There are cars on the road in Europe with batteries approaching the 10-year mark. Some EVs have been on the road in Europe with packs approaching the 10-year-old mark, and modern lithium-ion batteries will definitely meet or exceed that target.
> 
> 4. You'll need to build a lot more power plants.
> 
> Busted: Actually, there's enough off-peak electricity in the U.S. to power 79 percent of U.S. driving demand. As more EVs are deployed, it's important to ensure that the smart-charging (time-based charging management) and vehicle-to-grid connectivity progresses as well. A connected network of millions of micro-energy storage devices (which is what EVs will become) provides significant opportunities to improve the stability and performance of electric grids and better balance peak demand.
> 
> Ads by Google
> 
> Best Electric Cars '09-10 - Find & Compare Top Electric Cars of the Year + Most Fuel Efficient list - autointelonline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 5. We're going to run out of lithium - and isn't it poisonous?
> 
> Busted: Lithium carbonate today comes from dried salt lakes in South America (Chile, Argentina and Bolivia) and China. There are also other huge sources for lithium, although these are more expensive to develop. Lithium can even be extracted from salt water and projects are under way to do this. The industry will not have a shortage of lithium for the next decade. It is also possible that new battery technologies will be based on other light metals like zinc or nickel. Lithium from used batteries will be recycled in dedicated recycling plants. Lithium batteries contain no poisonous heavy metals like lead in lead-acid batteries or cadmium in NiCd batteries.
> 
> 6. The infrastructure has to come first.
> 
> Busted: The best way to deploy EVs is to get cars on the road first, then add infrastructure. If there are no EVs to use those plugs and parking spots, people see it as wasteful. We think infrastructure is a small part of good policy at a federal, regional and local level to support EV early adopters.
> 
> 7. They're not safe.
> 
> Busted: Highway-certified EVs meet all the same safety and crash test requirements as regular production cars with some important extras.
> 
> 8. The technology is too complicated.
> 
> Busted: A modern electric car has only about five main moving parts compared with hundreds in an internal-combustion engine. There are no regular visits to the dealership for an EV. No oil changes, no filters -- even brake pads last two-to-three times longer than in conventional cars, because EVs use regenerative braking to recapture the energy that would otherwise be lost while braking. Your first trip to the dealership with an EV for scheduled maintenance is at 40,000 miles to check the brake pads. Eventually, you'll need new wiper blades and tires. But that's about it!
> 
> 9. Fast charging EV batteries in 15 minutes will wear them out quickly.
> 
> Busted: Modern prismatic lithium batteries can be developed with fast-charging in mind. The critical technology is in the cell design to manage battery temperature during charging. Limiting fast charging to the zero to 80 percent range also protects battery life. We think that 95 percent or more of all EV miles will be driven on cars charged during overnight off-peak periods when electricity is cheaper and readily available. Fast charging locations provide reassurance and peace of mind for those occasional days where more than 100 miles are required.
> More information: Earlier story: Five myths about electric cars - Five myths about electric cars


:clap:


----------



## CubaMark

*ZENN Motor Company announces departure of CFO*












> Toronto, Ontario – may 4, 2010 – ZENN Motor Company Inc., (“ZMC” or the “company”) (tsx-v znn) a leading enabler of zero emission transportation solutions, today announced the resignation of Lawrence Schreiner, its chief financial officer. Mr. Schreiner will leave the company at the end of july to pursue other business interests. The company has initiated a search for a new cfo.
> 
> "Mr. Schreiner joined the company in late 2005 and became CFO in January 2006 when the company became a publicly traded entity," stated Ian Clifford, CEO of the company. "his experience with both early-stage and larger public enterprise, together with his broad management skills, have been invaluable assets for the company. We will miss him and wish him well in his new pursuits."


News Release download (PDF 80kb)

ZENN Motor Company website


----------



## Dr.G.

Not the best of news for ZENN, CM.


----------



## CubaMark

*Nissan Leaf electric car gets iPhone control*





> The Nissan Leaf electric hatchback is on its way, and it's bringing iPhone integration with it. You'll be able to use a special app to communicate with and control some of the vehicle's features, Nissan has promised.
> 
> All Nissan Leafs (Leaves?) will come with a cellular data radio built in. While the vehicle is at a charging station, it'll be able to send updates to your phone, telling you when it's finished suckling go-juice. Before heading back to the car, drivers can remotely adjust the Leaf's climate control to specify what temperature they want the cockpit to be when they climb in.


(Crave)


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla, Toyota Teaming Up To Build EVs in California*





> Tesla has been getting plenty of support from major automakers recently. First Daimler grabbed a 10% stake in the auto startup last year, and now Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger revealed this afternoon that Tesla and Toyota are teaming up to build electric vehicles and work on parts, production systems and engineering support in California. Toyota is investing $50 million in the venture, which will create 1,000 new jobs. In a press conference, Tesla and Toyota announced that the new cars will be built at New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. (NUMMI), Toyota's recently closed manufacturing plant in Fremont.
> 
> Toyota's California manufacturing operations have been dormant since April, when the company shut down production at NUMMI, which employed 4,700 workers. The plant had been open since 1984. Now Tesla says that it will use the production site to manufacture its upcoming Model S sedan, set to be released in 2012.


(FastCompany)


----------



## MacDoc

a small step at a time...



> *Burlington Hydro tests electric SUV to save gas*
> 
> 
> COURTESY OF BURLINGTON HYDRO
> Burlington Hydro is trying out a converted Ford Escape to test its all-electric drive and efficiency for future use in fleet vehicles.
> 
> May 29, 2010
> 
> Comments on this story (3)
> PETER GORRIE
> GREEN WHEELS
> 
> Turn the key; push a button; step on the accelerator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Ford Escape is slow off the mark as it leaves the garage at Burlington Hydro Inc. – for safety reasons its torque has been governed to 40 per cent of maximum. Once in motion, though, it’s a quiet pleasure—even on the QEW.
> 
> But performance is only part of what counts for this vehicle.
> 
> A Vancouver company, Rapid Electric Vehicles, replaced its gasoline motor and drivetrain with 25-kilowatt-hours worth of batteries, an electric motor and controls.
> 
> Burlington Hydro, which serves the suburban city at the west end of Lake Ontario, is using it to test how well electric propulsion would serve in fleet use and also how battery-powered vehicles might connect to a “smart” electricity grid for billing and management.
> 
> “It’s the first all-electric light duty SUV for use in a North American commercial fleet,” says REV CEO Jay Giroud.
> 
> “We’re very proud of the project,” says Dan Guatto, Hydro’s vice-president of engineering and operations.
> 
> The utility took delivery of the Escape in February, but didn’t put it on the road until its official unveiling late last month.
> 
> It makes sense for fleet use, Guatto says.
> 
> At Hydro, engineers and supervisors average 50 to 60 kilometres a day in this type of vehicle. That puts it well inside the range of the set-up installed by REV, which provides 127 kilometres between charges. It’s also driven mainly on city streets, where stop-and-go driving allows regenerative braking to partially recharge the battery. And electricity is cheaper than gasoline.
> 
> The conversion costs about $75,000, although that should drop 35 per cent as REV goes into full production, Giraud says. Fleet operators can expect to save $90,000 to $100,000 over 10 years on each vehicle, he says. They’ll also avoid about 120 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> For now, the overnight plug-in is on a regular 240-volt outlet. The smart grid part of the test can begin once Canada approves a new international standard electric-vehicle plug. Then, Hydro will use charging stations developed by Coulomb Technologies and Eaton Corporation, capable of two-way communication between car and grid.
> 
> There are plenty of electric vehicles around, Giraud says. But they’re not enabled to use the smart grid, which can control when they’re charged – for example, the process might be interrupted during periods of heavy demand – as well as how much and by what payment method to bill for purchases. Customers can punch in their own preferences.
> 
> It would also let utilities draw electricity from cars when it’s needed for the grid. Guatto, though, assumes this would occur infrequently, and only briefly, since moving electricity from car to grid would be slow and shorten battery life. “It will be the exception rather than the rule,” he says.
> 
> For REV, the project is key to building its conversion business. Ford vehicles – mainly Escapes and F-150 pickup trucks – comprise about 45 per cent of North America’s fleets, Giraud says. By the middle of next year, he hopes to have hundreds outfitted.
> 
> For Burlington Hydro, the aim is to not only improve its fleet performance but also to make its entire grid more efficient. It has other projects on the go as part of that effort.
> 
> *“All the technology is there to do it,” Guatto says. “We just haven’t done it yet.”*
> 
> He wonders whether utilities could lease batteries to car owners. When beyond peak performance they could serve as stationary power sources, perhaps eliminating the need to keep trucks idling when Hydro employees are working high up in “cherry picker” buckets.
> 
> This is about just one vehicle at a mid-size utility. *But it’s how change happen*s.


Burlington Hydro tests electric SUV to save gas | Wheels.ca


----------



## eMacMan

Math is really bad on that one.

60 kms/day. Probably about 20 litres or roughly $20/day times 250 days in a typical work year=$5000/year or $50,000 over the lifetime. Figure that oil changes will roughly equal the cost of electricity plus replacing at least one set of batteries. Gas heater running at least 6 months a year in Canadian Climes could erode that $50,000 even further.

IOW the cost of the conversion exceeds the savings by at least 50%


----------



## Lawrence

Just a matter of working on a liquid mass that can hold a charge.
I could see an almost perpetual idea, It's just too simple I guess.


----------



## MacDoc

I'd drive one of these if the price was right...









good article



> *Aptera 2e moves forward, eyes set on X Prize*


Aptera 2e moves forward, eyes set on X Prize — Autoblog Green


----------



## CubaMark

Yeah, now that they fixed the little problem of the door flying open in hard cornering (relocated the push-button door release)


----------



## AppleAuthority

CubaMark, I'm personally really looking forward to the Model S. I've been watching Tesla pretty closely, and am very impressed with how far Musk and his team has taken the company. Can't wait to test drive one in Toronto.


----------



## MacDoc

> *Drivers Easily Adapt to Electric Cars*
> By Andrew Donoghue, BusinessGreen.com
> Published June 17, 2010
> 
> LONDON, United Kingdom — [Editor's note: This article originally appeared at BusinessGreen and is reprinted with permission.]
> 
> Initial results from a long-term study of electric vehicle use has revealed that drivers use the cars in a similar way to their petrol equivalents and have shown little evidence of falling victim to much-feared "range anxiety."
> 
> In fact, the study revealed the majority of journeys taken by electric vehicle owners were less than five miles and also confirmed that when they do take longer journeys, usage patterns allow plenty of time for recharging.
> 
> Read more: Drivers Easily Adapt to Electric Cars | Business | GreenBiz.com


more
Drivers Easily Adapt to Electric Cars | Business | GreenBiz.com


----------



## CubaMark

*Electric Smart charges ahead*





> ...creating awareness of electric vehicles, as well as finding out how they they’ll fare in daily use on this side of the Atlantic, are the reasons 250 E Drive Smarts will be made available for lease in the United States – and 45 in Canada – late this year.
> (....)
> Mercedes-Benz Canada isn’t sure yet how they’ll be allocated – Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal would be good guesses – or what the lease cost will be. Cars in the U.S. will cost $599 a month, and effort will be made to keep the price as close to that as possible here. The cars will be returned to Mercedes-Benz Canada when the leases end. Series production of the cars and general availability is anticipated to begin early in 2012.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Dr.G.

I still say that they should test drive these sorts of cars in St.John's for one year. They could experience some of Canada's worst weather (e.g., snow, sleet, ice pellets, slush, etc) and poor roads (i.e., pot holes). If, after one year of normal driving, they could still make it in one piece, then they could be sent out to Winnipeg for a year of driving there. If they could withstand the bitterly cold temps in Winter, and the heat and bugs of Summer, then they are fit to drive anywhere in Canada.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> I still say that they should test drive these sorts of cars in St.John's for one year. They could experience some of Canada's worst weather (e.g., snow, sleet, ice pellets, slush, etc) and poor roads (i.e., pot holes). If, after one year of normal driving, they could still make it in one piece, then they could be sent out to Winnipeg for a year of driving there. If they could withstand the bitterly cold temps in Winter, and the heat and bugs of Summer, then they are fit to drive anywhere in Canada.


Throw in a year in a hot muggy area like Mississippi or maybe Florida. Like heaters, A/C on a conventional car general has zero impact on gas mileage or range. However heating and cooling with a battery is a major current drain.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> Throw in a year in a hot muggy area like Mississippi or maybe Florida. Like heaters, A/C on a conventional car general has zero impact on gas mileage or range. However heating and cooling with a battery is a major current drain.


I thought that A/C on a regular car reduced gas milage.


----------



## SINC

It is cheaper to run the A/C in a conventional car than to keep the windows down at highway speeds. Open windows create drag and uses more fuel than the compressor being turned by the serpentine belt. Around town at low speeds the opposite is true.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> It is cheaper to run the A/C in a conventional car than to keep the windows down at highway speeds. Open windows create drag and uses more fuel than the compressor being turned by the serpentine belt. Around town at low speeds the opposite is true.


I knew about the open window and drag coefficient, but I thought that the AC would reduce gas milage regardless of where it is used. My Echo does not have AC, so I don't have to worry.


----------



## bryanc

Dr.G. said:


> If they could withstand the bitterly cold temps in Winter, and the heat and bugs of Summer, then they are fit to drive anywhere in Canada.


I've often thought of what an electric car designed for Canada would be like. It would have to be designed for temperature extremes as you've already pointed out, and it should have great cabin heaters and defrosting systems as well. I think it would be good if it had adjustable suspension (like my dad's 1956 Citroen did) so that you could lower your drag when driving on smooth highways, but raise it up for some clearance on the pot-hole strewn streets of our cities and rural roads. Also like the '56 Citroen, it should have great headlights that swivel so you can see where you're turning on dark winter nights, and not just where the car is currently pointed. Rather than choosing between good range and carrying capacity, I think a well-designed utility trailer/external battery might be a nice option.

I think it should be called the C80, because it would run well from +40˚C to -40˚C

Anyone know a venture capitalist that might want to fund the development of the next Bricklin?


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> I thought that A/C on a regular car reduced gas milage.


Having driven my car in similar conditions with A/C on and off I can assure you it makes no measurable difference in gas mileage. The only exception would be in traffic jams as the engine will use a bit more gas while idling.

As Sinc says at highway speeds A/C is more efficient than open windows.

The A/C compressor freewheels very efficiently when the A/C is not in use. You might get an extra 5 miles out of every 10,000 miles by having no A/C whatsoever.

OTH running A/C from a battery would be a big current drain and would noticeably impact range.


----------



## CubaMark

_I know that I posted something last year (?) about Bolivia and it's supply of lithium, and the potential for the country to seriously benefit from the electric vehicle boom, but darned if ehMac's search feature will let me find it._

In any event, here's an update:

*Hard life of Bolivia's 'salt plains guardians'*





> There is a lot of talk about the Andean country potentially becoming the "Saudi Arabia of lithium" - the world's lightest metal that will be used on batteries for electric cars.Companies from Japan, South Korea and France are vying for a piece of the untapped bounty beneath the feet of the salt gatherers.
> 
> So the Bolivian government is finishing a pilot plant to study how to get the lithium out of these salt flats.
> 
> Experts believe that Bolivia, a poverty-stricken country, holds 50% of the world's total supplies of lithium, contained in vast lakes of brine beneath the surface.


(BBC News)


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Kosh

BigDL said:


> Has this a chance or just future casting a hopeless dream?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wired Article Here


 
The problem is it looks like an egg, and you know what happens when eggs go too fast and they hit something!


----------



## CubaMark

*Porsche Revving Up All-Electric Sports Car*





> The electric sports car scene is heating up with Porsche‘s confirmation of a new all-electric sports car based on its Boxster. The company is conducting daily tests of three research cars to study battery systems and electric drive components.
> 
> Porsche President and CEO Michael Macht said in a statement that Porsche will “definitely be offering electric sports cars in the future,” but that the performance and cruising range must be comparable to existing sports cars.


(TechCrunch)


----------



## CubaMark

*Evatran unveils wireless charging solution for electric vehicles*





> Instead of having to worry about bothersome cables and plug/power compatibility, EV owners using the system will just need to pull up in front of a control tower and the charging process will kick in automatically. And you needn't concern yourself with perfect parking either, the floor-mounted current delivery block is said to take care of all the alignment issues.


(GizMag)


----------



## CubaMark

*15-Year-Old Turns 1972 VW Beetle Into Electric Car*





> Ashton Stark isn't old enough to drive, but he has already built himself a vehicle. It took him a year, but he just finished converting his grandfather's 1972 Volkswagen Beetle into an electric car.
> 
> "I was actually looking online with my dad at electric cars, because we heard a lot about them and thought they were kind of cool," the 15-year-old told NPR. "I decided I wanted to do one. And once I got the body from my grandpa, it all just kind of fell together."
> 
> So what makes this Bug crawl now? Nine golf cart batteries. Stark's father helped him to install the batteries and connect a single motorized shaft to the transmission, according to NPR.


(FastCompany)


----------



## CubaMark

*At $41,000+ for a new Chevy Volt, maybe conversion is the answer?*












> The prospect of converting a vehicle to electric may not be something that many EV fans relish. After all, while our parents' generation may have been quite happy to tinker with a few wrenches, how many people willingly work on their cars today?
> 
> But while the thought of converting a car to a plug-in may be daunting, a well-converted vehicle may even be easier to maintain than an aging early generation plug-in.


(AllCarsElectric.com)


----------



## CubaMark

*Hybrid Bike Wheel Wins U.S. Dyson Award*





> An ingenious wheel that could turn any bike into an electric hybrid has won the U.S. round of the James Dyson Award





> ...a hybrid wheel, which generates electricity during braking (similar to the regenerative braking you find in many car hybrids). It then offers that electricity as a power boost up hills or over long distances.* That power is controlled by an iPhone interface*. (Shades of Apple's Smart Bike!) Why's all this groundbreaking? The hope is that hybrid power, by making previously difficult bike commutes easy, could make bikes a viable option for countless more commuters.


(FastCoDesign)


----------



## CubaMark

*beyond private automobility*

*There's No Such Thing as a Green Car*



> Don't believe the hype. The GM Volt plug-in hybrid electric vehicle is a threat to those who care about liveability, equality, and the planet.


(Read more at TheMarkNews)


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> *There's No Such Thing as a Green Car*


Good analysis. I think he's hit the nail on the head.


----------



## eMacMan

Forgetting the anti-auto bias in the story, there is a huge problem should the electric car catch on seriously which the article sideswiped but only partially addressed. 

It would add major strain of the grid. 
More power plants and more power lines=much higher electric bills
Hydro long touted as green is anything but, ditto nuclear.


----------



## hayesk

He does a good job in explaining why all cars are not "green." But nothing about electric cars. He rehashes the same tired argument "the pollution is moved to the source instead of at the tailpipe." Well, that's good - pollution is much easier to control and filter when it's coming from one place. What's next? Is he going to explain that electricity generation takes energy too? No kidding - but compare it to refining gasoline.


----------



## MacDoc

Niiiiiiice..










> With the launch of the 3008 HYbrid 4, Peugeot becomes the first automaker to sell a full production diesel-electric hybrid vehicle.
> The 3008 HYbrid 4 is powered by a 2.0-liter 163 horsepower HDi diesel, combined with a 27 constant, 37 peak horsepower electric motor, making it a powerful, yet efficient crossover. The *CUV is capable of 74.4 miles per gallon highway on the European cycle*, and emits just 99 grams of CO2 per kilometer. The 3008 HYbrid 4 also features Peugeot’s latest generation of Start-Stop technology, for even greater fuel economy savings.


World’s first diesel-electric hybrid: Peugeot 3008 HYbrid 4


----------



## CubaMark

*You missed the bigger story of the day, MacDoc! A Canadian-made EV made of hemp! *

*Cannabis electric car to be made in Canada*




> The Kestrel will be prototyped and tested later in August by Calgary-based Motive Industries Inc., a vehicle development firm focused on advanced materials and technologies, the company announced.
> 
> The compact car, which will hold a driver and up to three passengers, will have a top speed of 90 kilometres per hour and a range of 40 to 160 kilometres before needing to be recharged, depending on the type of battery.


(CBC)

*More coverage and video from Reuters*


----------



## CubaMark

Actually - this one is more up my alley. Great initiative!





> Students from the University of British Columbia hope to set a record for the fastest coast-to-coast drive across Canada in an electric vehicle, range anxiety be damned. Better yet, they’re making the trip in a slick home-brew electrified classic VW Beetle.
> 
> The students set out from Vancouver last week on their 4,000-mile trek in E-Beetle, a ‘72 Vee Dub the UBC Electric Car Club converted to run on electricity. With a three-phase AC induction motor hooked up to a lithium iron phosphate battery, the car has a range of around 185 miles at 60 mph and over 340 miles at 30 mph. Top speed is around 85 mph, and recharging the pack takes about four hours. The car sports four wheel discs with regenerative braking.


(Wired)


----------



## CubaMark

And *ZENN* continues to disappoint.... Stock as of 1:46pm EST Friday 27 Aug 2010: *$1.72.*

This week ZENN released it's financials.... $1-million operating loss.... and:



> *Company Update*
> 
> The Company continues to leverage the broad Electric Vehicle (EV) technical expertise it has built up over the years. During the quarter, the Company’s investment in key engineering initiatives included the following:
> 
> 
> Developing high-voltage drivetrain solutions that can best take advantage of the unique capabilities represented by anticipated high-voltage energy sources such as EEStor Inc.’s technology;
> Developing the requirements for power electronics and power management systems that will optimize these planned high-voltage drivetrain applications;
> Developing control strategies for total system integration; and Developing related heating, cooling and packaging solutions.
> 
> As part of these initiatives, the Company is pursuing a number of related patents that share the following attributes:
> 
> 
> They will enhance the Company’s ZENNergyTM solutions;
> They will be applicable to both EEStor and non-EEStor energy storage systems; and,
> They are expected to create incremental revenue opportunities.
> 
> The Company is also actively engaged in opportunities to establish relationships with, or invest in, third-party companies that can provide complementary technologies that will enhance the Company’s overall solutions offering.
> 
> “We continue to move forward with investments in engineering and business development initiatives that we believe will deliver the greatest long-term shareholder value,” stated Ian Clifford, CEO of ZMC. “The significant and growing level of activity and investment within the Electric Vehicle industry is extremely encouraging and we believe augurs well for the market potential of ZMC’s solutions once they are brought to market.”


----------



## CubaMark

They made it! Coast-to-Coast in an Electric Beetle. How cool is that?

*Electric car ends coast-to-coast trip*





> Ricky Gu, 21, arrived in Halifax in his converted 1972 Volkswagen Beetle on Monday night.
> 
> "It feels great," he told reporters. "I can't believe we made it without a single problem at all."
> 
> Gu built the electric car himself, funding the project through grants from the University of British Columbia. Sponsors donated about $25,000 in parts.
> 
> "It cost about $3 for every 300 kilometres. So 6,500 kilometres, it cost about $64 in electricity!"


(CBC)

*For more information, check out the team's blog!*


----------



## CubaMark

_*Just checked out the UBC team's blog - this was very nice:*_



> We did it!
> 
> The team rolled into Dartmouth at 5:53pm – 7 minutes ahead of schedule. We ended our journey at Alderney Landing on the north side of Halifax Harbour, the site where Terry Fox had stopped by on his epic Marathon of Hope 30 years ago. Ricky Gu opened a bottle of Pacific Ocean water that the team had carried with them and poured it into the Atlantic. He paid tribute to the memory of Terry Fox with the following words:
> 
> “From the Pacific to the Atlantic, we pour this water in memory of a true Canadian hero – Terry Fox. Thirty years ago Terry Fox started his walk across this vast country to raise money for Cancer Research. We dedicate our humble effort to him.


----------



## Vicbowling

Wow.. not only innovative young minds, but also respectful! 

This should almost be a separate sticky/thread! 

I wonder what they used for a computer in the VW?? 

Heck that VW is setting two records, I mean when was the last time you saw someone spend $25k on a bug?? I guess they don't have to worry about security since nobody's going to know how to hot-wire a car that fancy! 

PS: For the spiralling argument about solar power = useless, check this link out:
MIT researchers create new self-assembling photovoltaic technology that repairs itself
(It's an article from the 5th about a self healing photovoltaic tech that would seriously give solar power a shot in the arm.)


----------



## CubaMark

*Another article on the UBC Electric Beetle team - from Wired.com:*





> Braving broken charging equipment, a thrown half-shaft and even a hurricane that downed power lines across Nova Scotia, the student engineers from the University of British Columbia have crossed Canada in their homebrew electric Volkswagen Beetle. They are the first team to cross the country in an electric car.
> 
> After fourteen days at an average speed of 42 mph, a day spent making repairs Toronto and two days waiting out Hurricane Earl in Quebec, the E-Beetle rolled into Dartmouth, Nova Scotia on Monday afternoon.


(Wired)


----------



## rgray

CubaMark said:


> Cannabis electric car to be made in Canada





> ...and a range of 40 to 160 kilometres before needing to be recharged....


???

Do these people ever look at a map of the country????? 

That VW looks much more promising....


----------



## Dr.G.

rgray said:


> ???
> 
> Do these people ever look at a map of the country?????
> 
> That VW looks much more promising....


True ............. coast to coast ............. Victoria, BC to St.John's, NL. Then, there is the northern coast of Canada ............. coast to coast to coast. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## jamesB

Am I the only one confused by the different article quotes on the VW beetle?
One quote states...

"It feels great," he told reporters. "I can't believe we made it without a single problem at all."

And another...
"Braving broken charging equipment, a thrown half-shaft and a day spent making repairs in Toronto"

Who do we believe?


----------



## CubaMark

I guess it has to do with what engineering students consider _a problem_


----------



## CubaMark

*Student-built E-Quickie electric vehicle draws energy wirelessly from the road*





> Looking a bit like a recumbent bike with a driver’s cabin, the E-Quickie was built by students at the Karlsruhe University of Applied Sciences (HsKA) to investigate the practicality of a wirelessly powered electric vehicle. It gets its energy from electric conducting paths on the ground with receivers underneath the car taking energy from the tracks through electric induction and directing it to the car’s electrical hub drive.


(GizMag)


----------



## CubaMark

*What a beauty!*

*Thomas Edison's 1912 Electric Car Gets A Chance To Shine*












> 1912 Edison electric car.
> 
> "He built three cars, one of which he drove from Scotland to London, charging it up along the way," Mr Burrell told the Sunday Express newspaper. The final leg of the journey from North to South was 170 miles, which makes GM's claim of a 170 mile journey in an Opel Ampera (the European market re-badged Volt) being the longest single electric vehicle journey in the U.K. look quite foolish. Edison's car managed the feat almost a century earlier...





> Edison's car might not be much of a performance machine compared to even the tardiest of modern EVs but with two 15-volt batteries and a 30-volt electric motor, its top speed of 25 miles per hour was more than competitive in its heyday.


Just goes to show how far battery technology has *NOT evolved.* Those numbers are pretty much what ZENN had with it's production car....

(All Cars Electric.com)


----------



## MacDoc

Motorcycles will lead on this

Yikes - 








*100+ MPH / 100 Mile+ Range*
All Electric Motorcycle
The Empulse builds on the strengths of the Enertia and sees the introduction of Brammo's innovative Digital Drivetrain technology. This breakthrough in performance enables all models of the Empulse to exceed 100mph for sustained periods. The three models have a variety of ranges and prices to suit most riders' needs. The Empulse is also the world's first production electric motorcycle to feature water cooling feature a water-cooled motor. With its purposeful cafe racer looks, the Empulse is a study in elegant and purposeful design. ​100% Electric Motorcycle : Brammo Empulse and Enertia Home

and they are already racing them in North America and Isle of Mann










Video: First TTXGP Electric Motorcycle Race at Infineon - NYTimes.com


----------



## CubaMark

Two items of interest:

1/ How Elon Musk turned Tesla into the car company of the future (Wired.com)



2/ Electric cars will just replace foreign oil dependence with foreign rare earth metal dependence (National Geographic)


----------



## CubaMark

*Some ZENN news (for those few shareholders who haven't already bolted. I'm looking at you, Dr. G!):*



> *Full Disclosure:* before I wrote this article, I bought 2000 shares of Enova stock at $0.74 today. I have no intention of trading the stock or flipping it for a short term gain. As with my Zenn investment (which I have never sold), I intend to take a long term investment approach. Most of my investment decisions lead to failure so do not construe this article as an invitation to join me as I wheelbarrow more of my money off a cliff. There are plenty of other ways to **** away your own money. Get creative.
> 
> The chairman of the Enova Systems Inc. board of directors has joined Zenn Motor Company's board of directors and shall be addressed using his full name, John Robert Wallace. Wallace fills a vacancy created with Peter Mackechnie's resignation announcement issued in the same press release. Once they repair the window Mackechnie threw himself out of due to losing his mind waiting for EEStor to do something interesting, Wallace has a lot of interesting challenges ahead chief among them is guiding Zenn to a place where they feel comfortable talking about what the hell they've been up to for the past year or so on the apparently uber secret ZENNergy drive project. If Wallace can induce that Oprah moment, we might learn if there is true synergy between Enova and Zenn or if this is just a cocktail napkin AH HA moment among people promoting their own short term interests.


(More from the EEStory.com blog)


----------



## Dr.G.

We shall see, CM. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

*From the Friday, 8 October 2010,* Globe & Mail:





> I’d worried that an electric car would be sluggish. It wasn’t. The Mini E felt like a full-size version of the slot cars I played with as a boy. I zipped up to 140 km/h without trying. And after years of riding behind internal combustion engines, the quietness was awesome – all I could hear was the hum of the tires, and the wind rushing past the windows.





> But I did realize that there was a price to be paid – sooner or later, the Mini would need a charge. I checked the charge indicator needle and found it had moved several centimetres toward the zero end of the scale. I’d only travelled 35 kilometres! This was my introduction to Range Anxiety, which would be my constant companion for the next several days.





> An hour later, the Mini E was being winched up on to the back of a diesel-powered tow truck. I climbed into the cab with the driver for the ride north. It seemed criminal that it had to end like this. In its own way, the Mini E was great. But its convenience charger (a generic piece that isn’t even made by BMW) wasn’t. Maybe my garage’s ancient power supply had destroyed it. Either way, I had come to a conclusion: The electric car is ready. The world isn’t.


----------



## patrickz

Electric vehicles can't be a worse idea than what we're using now. Bring 'em on.


----------



## vacuvox

It seems to me the electric car represents technological progress but presents a bit of a distraction from the main problems associated with transportation. The inconvenient truth here is that there are already far too many automobiles and trucks consuming public space and infrastructure. Has anyone brought that up yet?


----------



## hayesk

Despite the understanding that driving is a privilege, everyone acts like it is their right. 

In addition to that, public transit, in most places, simply isn't a reliable alternative to driving. People aren't going to give up driving until public transit is improved. And public transit won't get the support from people because they don't see it getting better.


----------



## Macfury

hayesk said:


> Despite the understanding that driving is a privilege, everyone acts like it is their right.


It's not a privilege. It is a right subject to minor regulation.


----------



## CubaMark

vacuvox said:


> ... there are already far too many automobiles and trucks consuming public space and infrastructure. Has anyone brought that up yet?


Good point, SINC. It's a cultural change that must come into effect, as far too many people don't even consider using public transport, let alone lobbying their government representatives to fund & plan for it. 

Take Halifax as an example. The current mayor, Peter Kelly, has long been a "proponent" of commuter rail. But it's now a dead project, while all players involved wait for "someone" to make the first move. Truly, sad, as on one side of the peninsula, unused rail lines reach almost all the way, and the right-of-way is still there for the last few blocks. On the other side, the lines run all the way down. But no - we still get ridiculous traffic and continued contamination of what is a really beautiful, green city. Here's an article discussing the transit situation.

In recent months, some media outlets have raised the idea of a third harbour crossing (Halifax currently has two bridges which bring in the majority of commuters). Absolute insanity....


----------



## bsenka

hayesk said:


> Despite the understanding that driving is a privilege, everyone acts like it is their right.
> 
> In addition to that, public transit, in most places, simply isn't a reliable alternative to driving. People aren't going to give up driving until public transit is improved. And public transit won't get the support from people because they don't see it getting better.


While I disagree with your first point, I definitely see merit in your second.

I won't take transit because it's nowhere near capable of doing what I need. The few times I've found myself "forced" to use transit have only reinforced to me that it's a totally unacceptable mode of transportation for regular use.

In order to upgrade Winnipeg's transit to the point that "car-people" would actually want to use it, they would have to sink an untenable amount of money. It would also have to be running mostly empty for quite a while before people would believe that the schedules and routes are really convenient enough to give it a try.

Even if transit was THAT good, most would still would probably only use it a few times a year (as opposed to NEVER).


----------



## Macfury

^^^^^^^^

+1

I have been forced to use Toronto subway service and have found it slow, unreliable and comparable in cost to driving--never mind adding buses to the mix to slow things down further. 

I also find it galling to see 30 cars trapped behind a bus or subway car carrying 6 or 7 people.


----------



## vacuvox

bsenka said:


> I won't take transit because it's nowhere near capable of doing what I need.


Well, if one of your needs is a car... then Public Transit will not be very fulfilling. If you adopt high-mobility expectations and lifestyle, you pretty well have to have a car - so your options are nill. Without that car, you're stranded.



Macfury said:


> I have been forced to use Toronto subway service and have found it slow, unreliable and comparable in cost to driving


Cost: The CAA calculates the minimum cost of car ownership between $7,768 and $14,363 per year for an extraordinarily average car (you can argue with them about their figures - but they are car advocates after all). The incomparable Annual TTC pass (adult) is $1,452.

Speed: driving those same corridors can be pretty time consuming! Then you have to find parking. As for reliability: agreed - but arriving by subway, again, seems more consistent and less stressful than driving.



Macfury said:


> never mind adding buses to the mix to slow things down further.


Macfury, what are you suggesting here? : ) Eliminate surface transport? Do you want everyone to get around by personal automobile instead? What options are you proposing? For the sake of your own mobility, please accept and permit alternatives to personal car ownership. Otherwise you will find yourself wedged in a grid-locked sea of privately owned electric, hybrid, bio-diesel, highly fuel efficient (or not) cars.


----------



## bsenka

vacuvox said:


> Well, if one of your needs is a car... then Public Transit will not be very fulfilling. If you adopt high-mobility expectations and lifestyle, you pretty well have to have a car - so your options are nill. Without that car, you're stranded.


The REASON one of my needs is a car is because I can't make use of or even rely on public transit, at least as it exists in Winnipeg.

Standing on a corner when it's 40 below with a -55 windchill with my 40 lb bag of goalie gear on my shoulder would be bad enough. But when busses run only every 30-40 minutes as it is, most routes needing 2 to three transfers with 20-40 minute stops at each one, mostly stopping running at midnight, entirely stopping running to the suburbs and the industrial areas well before that, then if you ever actually did find a bus to catch the driver won't let you bring that huge bag of gear and sticks on the bus anyway.

Given that, how would I get to work after a weekday night hockey game at 1 am, at a rink in the burbs on one side of the city, to go work the night shift in an industrial park on the other end of the city?

Further, when it takes an hour on the best day during peak times for the bus to get from my work to my daughter's school, how do I go pick her up and take her to her skating lessons (or swimming, or dance) that are another 30-45 minute bus ride away, all before 4:30 pm?

I can't. I can't work, play hockey, and have my kids in any activities, while using the bus for those tasks. It can't be done. Do make it doable, you'd have to have 24 hr every 10 minutes rapid transit on every feeder route, with each car having a cargo area that you can stay with your stuff during the trip. The cost for that would be ridiculous.

Keep in mind here, that I'm NOT an all car-all the time guy. In the non-winter months I mostly cycle everywhere I go, including to work. I put more kilometers a year on my bicycle than I do my car. Come winter though, the activities and the weather conspire to make anything other than full-time car use nearly impossible. That's fine by me though. I don't have a problem paying for a car that I only use part of the year, because when I need it, I actually NEED it.


----------



## vacuvox

bsenka said:


> Given that, how would I get to work after a weekday night hockey game at 1 am, at a rink in the burbs on one side of the city, to go work the night shift in an industrial park on the other end of the city?


I hear your pain, bsenka, but what you describe is exactly the problem that electric cars do not address. The amount of mobility you need may seem "normal" to most people - at this time - but I'm suggesting that it is "car-dependent" - and that the environmental problem ostensibly addressed by clean cars is in fact caused by automobile overuse and automobile overpopulation.

Meanwhile, in our inner-city neighbourhood the hockey rink is 2 blocks away, the public school is one block away, shopping and groceries are similarly also close by, along with restaurants and other amenities. We can walk or cycle to work or take transit, taxi or drive (we subscribe to a car-sharing program). Lots of options. This is not a "nyah nyah" - just trying to illustrate that alternatives and solutions are there. There are choices.


----------



## MacDoc

Yep - electric vehicles for the moment are meant to address the major issue which is short commutes and local trips with lots of idling and traffic jams.
20-40km max and in reality that's the bulk of the problem with emissions. Cold engines on short trips and much idling in traffic jams.

I think Volt's approach is good - a primary electric vehicle with a small fossil engine for recharging/extended trips.

More charging stations need to be in urban complexes. It's a ways off but this coming year will see waves of choices.

Peugot's diesel hybrid is big tho expensive step.....74 mpg on a sizeable vehicle. Gonna take a while tho.


----------



## Macfury

Ontario continues to gamble on reducing electricity demand while hiking prices. That doesn't kill electric car possibilities here, but makes them far less appealing.


----------



## eMacMan

vacuvox said:


> Cost: The CAA calculates the minimum cost of car ownership between $7,768 and $14,363 per year for an extraordinarily average car (you can argue with them about their figures - but they are car advocates after all). The incomparable Annual TTC pass (adult) is $1,452.
> ....


Don't know where they get their figures but we spent under $4000 last year. Includes gas, maintenance, insurance, and depreciation. We put 24,000 kms on it, which I suspect is about average.

As for public transit; Bus to the nearest city and back would cost wife and I about $160, unless we plan more than 2 weeks in advance. Hardly an economically viable alternative. 

As to train service: I do believe the Empress rolls through town about once a year but at $7000+/head that is certainly out of our league.


----------



## Max

vacuvox said:


> Meanwhile, in our inner-city neighbourhood the hockey rink is 2 blocks away, the public school is one block away, shopping and groceries are similarly also close by, along with restaurants and other amenities. We can walk or cycle to work or take transit, taxi or drive (we subscribe to a car-sharing program). Lots of options. This is not a "nyah nyah" - just trying to illustrate that alternatives and solutions are there. There are choices.


Having so many amenities and services in such reasonable and close proximity is one of the benefits conferred by greater density living - it becomes reasonably cost-effective to provide mass transit options for these districts. Indeed, the availability of realistic options to the car and all those infernally clogged expressways in turn attracts even more people.

But yeah, if you don't relish streets full of people, bikes, cars and trucks - if you don't like the hub-bub of city life in general, it's not for you. In which case, the notion of urban densification resembles the 9th circle of hell.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> But yeah, if you don't relish streets full of people, bikes, cars and trucks - if you don't like the hub-bub of city life in general, it's not for you. In which case, the notion of urban densification resembles the 9th circle of hell.


Yes indeed! Conjures up images of _Magnus: Robot Fighter_ for me.


----------



## Max

See, I knew you were on side!


----------



## vacuvox

eMacMan said:


> Don't know where they get their figures but we spent under $4000 last year. Includes gas, maintenance, insurance, and depreciation. We put 24,000 kms on it, which I suspect is about average.


Maybe there is another reputable car-friendly organization that has studied and reported on car ownership costs. I'd be interested to know. On topic... if you look down past the figures for the Cobalt and Caravan, the CAA's estimate for annual costs of the hybrid Prius are (currently) no better than the Cobalt.



eMacMan said:


> Bus to the nearest city and back would cost wife and I about $160 [snip] I do believe the Empress rolls through town about once a year


That's the way most of us live. Without a car, electric or otherwise, we're stranded.


----------



## bsenka

vacuvox said:


> in our inner-city neighbourhood the hockey rink is 2 blocks away, the public school is one block away, shopping and groceries are similarly also close by, along with restaurants and other amenities. We can walk or cycle to work or take transit, taxi or drive (we subscribe to a car-sharing program). Lots of options. This is not a "nyah nyah" - just trying to illustrate that alternatives and solutions are there. There are choices.


I didn't take it as a "nyah nyah". My frustration is not that someone else might have a holier than thou attitude, or anything like that. It's that I'm often accused of being one of the "car entitlement" people when I really do go the extra mile to try to do the things you describe, and it doesn't take away from my need for a car (or two).

In my case, as I already said, I already cycle everywhere. I bike between 7500 and 10,000 kms a year. I intentionally bought a house that is on a one block dead end with the school my kids go to at one end and the community club that the register for all their sports and activities at the other end. That club with its two outdoor rinks is literally across the back lane from us. That house is walking distance to an OK shopping arrangement for basic things, and there are other hockey arenas within a few blocks as well.

It makes no difference at all. More often than not, the kids activities (and my hockey) are still scheduled at facilities all over the city instead of the ones they registered out of. My work is still in an industrial park, and my wife and I work still work different shifts more often than not. Besides that, "walking distance" is a relative term when Winnipeg winters hit. I'll happily walk 10 km in non winter months (I did it friday night), but 6 blocks might as well be 600 when I'm carrying my goalie gear and it's 40 below with waist deep snow.


----------



## vacuvox

> More often than not, the kids activities (and my hockey) are still scheduled at facilities all over the city


As you say, bsenka, you need those cars to participate in your community and as a valid member of society. You've clearly done what you can to minimize car-miles - but... the expectation remains that you must own one (or two) car(s) to accomplish a lengthy and serpentine daily circuit between work, hockey and your kids' after-school activities (at a cost of somewhere between 8,000 to 30,000 after-tax dollars per year to operate two economy cars - that's incorporating eMacman's estimate as well as CAA's).

I guess the leading question pertaining to this thread is, would you consider renewing your subscription to Canadian society by replacing your current ride(s) with an electric car (or two)?


----------



## CubaMark

*Some positive spin-offs from the emerging electric economy....*

*N.S. manganese eyed for electric car batteries*



> An Ontario mining company says a ghost town in Nova Scotia may hold the key to jump-starting the electric car industry.
> 
> Yava Technologies wants to extract a variety of minerals and metals from Silver Mine, a deserted settlement near Marion Bridge in Cape Breton.
> 
> Company president Bob Pepper is particularly excited about the deposit of manganese, which is used in making batteries for cellphones, laptops and electric vehicles.
> 
> 'It could be the birth of the real advancement of the electric and hybrid vehicle industry.'— Bob Pepper, president Yava Technologies
> 
> He said there's a shortage of pure manganese right now.


(CBC)


----------



## eMacMan

So been crunching the numbers on the Chevy Volt. Pretty easy since we do about 250kms/month of in town driving the rest is highway. On that 250 KMs I would save about $8. I kicked the 12¢/KWH that GM used, up to the 18¢ that our bills average. (Note: we are charged 9¢/KWH but the gouge fees jack that up to ~18¢/KWH) (GM quotes about $1.50/40 miles or roughly 4¢/mile)

Both vehicles will get about the same highway mileage. Even so I more than trebled that to $25/month savings. or about $300/year. Given the roughly $18,000 price difference between the Volt and a new Toyota Yaris, that Volt would only have to run 60 years on the original batteries to cover the cost difference.

So let's take 800 kms/month. The max you could reasonably do with out a daytime/peakload recharge. Savings are now roughly $25/month. Also assuming a lot fewer highway miles that's perhaps a max of $450/year savings or only 40 years to pay off the difference.

In other words not ready for real world driving.


----------



## bsenka

vacuvox said:


> would you consider renewing your subscription to Canadian society by replacing your current ride(s) with an electric car (or two)?


I'm not opposed to the _idea_ of a car that uses electric power, I've just yet to see one (even a proposed one) that would be suitable. They're all either too small, too short range, take too long to charge, or far too expensive. 

Unless and until I can drive them as long as I can on a tank of gas, can recharge them as quickly as I can refill the tank, can recharge them in as many places as I can refill, can carry as many people and cargo as a mid-sized people hauler, and costs the same or less than what I'm using now-- it's just a pipe dream.


----------



## Macfury

+1

You know what? If electric cars become popular, they're going to tax the electricity they use at the same rate as gasoline, making them unaffordable once again.


----------



## eMacMan

So been trying to find info on how the heater in the Chevy Volt will (not) work. So far zero info from GM. If it runs off the gasoline engine when it's really cold, then savings in Canada could be absolutely zero for 6 months a year making the payback time from 80-120 years.

If it does not run from the engine, then a heat pump would reduce the effective range from a max of 50 miles to perhaps as little as 20 miles. Even then the gas engine might have to kick in as heat pumps really won't cut it once the temp drops below 0°C.

Those in really warm climates should expect A/C to similarly impact range.


----------



## MacDoc

There is tons of waste heat available from the batteries, 
a/c is not much of a power draw and would be obvious for the charging motor to run.
Irrelevant points.

Cost is far too high for current range .....when oil gets back to 200+ - coming soon enough - the economics will change - and the wave of vehicle choices is barely in sight.
Once more - these are NOT going to replace the current fleet - in most cases it will be a secondary short commute vehicle for urban high density.

Most objections here are ill-founded nonsense.

Road taxes however will be problematic for municipalities and regions and tolls will certainly replace them .....the electronic ones in London will be a likely model....and will apply to EV and nonEV alike.


----------



## Max

Agreed with MacDoc. Rising oil and gas rates would be sufficient to tip the argument in favour of electric vehicles. Agreed also that the first wave will be urban commuters in need of a second vehicle for regular short hop trips. Electric cars at their present capabilities make little sense for long trips and rural travel. But the technology is a moving target and many common early assumptions regarding electric vehicles are likely going to ultimately be proven naive and misinformed.


----------



## eMacMan

MacDoc said:


> There is tons of waste heat available from the batteries,
> a/c is not much of a power draw and would be obvious for the charging motor to run.
> Irrelevant points.
> 
> Cost is far too high for current range .....when oil gets back to 200+ - coming soon enough - the economics will change - and the wave of vehicle choices is barely in sight.
> Once more - these are NOT going to replace the current fleet - in most cases it will be a secondary short commute vehicle for urban high density.
> 
> Most objections here are ill-founded nonsense.
> 
> Road taxes however will be problematic for municipalities and regions and tolls will certainly replace them .....the electronic ones in London will be a likely model....and will apply to EV and nonEV alike.


Heat from the batteries may work for a wimpy TO winter. But when temps dip below 0°C unless GM quadruples the normal insulation and seals all the air leaks that just won't do the trick. A/C will need to draw at least 1 KWH and in hot climates will need to run continuously again hardly insignificant. 

More likely revenue replacement will come from a direct tax on all electrical users thus further negating any savings. 

Overall my calculations were based on GM estimates other than the cost of electricity which was not accurate for Alberta.

I repeat; Given the expensive cost of replacing exotic battery packs, payback cost of such vehicles needs to be under 5 years. Thus far none of them come even close to that.

Would you pay double the price for a super efficient furnace that took 80 years to recover the added cost but was designed to last 20 years? Then why pay almost double for a car that will take at least 60 years to pay back the cost and has a design life of 15 years?

Someone that has exorbitant fuel bills for commuting should look carefully at the Mazda 2 or Toyota Yaris as a commuter car. They provide as much or more space than the Volt at around half the cost.


----------



## FeXL

MacDoc said:


> There is tons of waste heat available from the batteries,
> a/c is not much of a power draw and would be obvious for the charging motor to run.
> Irrelevant points.
> 
> Cost is far too high for current range .....when oil gets back to 200+ - coming soon enough - the economics will change - and the wave of vehicle choices is barely in sight.
> Once more - these are NOT going to replace the current fleet - in most cases it will be a secondary short commute vehicle for urban high density.
> 
> Most objections here are ill-founded nonsense.
> 
> Road taxes however will be problematic for municipalities and regions and tolls will certainly replace them .....the electronic ones in London will be a likely model....and will apply to EV and nonEV alike.


Ah, yes, the old rolling eyes. Where would you be without those, MacDoc?

As is usual some perspective is required on a few points in your post.

1) In another life I drove forklift for a living, one of them was electric. Big lead acid battery, probably 2'x2'x3'. Thing would run all day, not only moving the forklift along at speeds close to 15 mph but lifting pallets weighing 2000 lbs or more. Unload 20 skids off a truck to the dock, then move them to their place in the warehouse, pick a load, move it to the dock, then load it onto another truck. Eight to 10 hour shifts, hundreds of thousands of pounds of freight each day.

Battery was located under the seat, under a stamped steel plate, maybe 14 gauge, hardly insulating material. Not once did I ever feel a massive amount of heat coming of that battery. Did it get warm? Sure, but not the sort of heat that would warm the interior of a car or defrost a windshield. Never made you want to get off of it on a hot summer day or fight for its warming capabilities in the winter.

2) A quick internet check shows that A/C running full blast requires 10+ HP. I would consider that significant. Where is that power going to come from? The battery? There goes battery life. The aux motor? There goes economy.

*Not* irrelevant points.

3) You mention that cost is too high. Agreed, but people are not going to rush to the electric car store when gas hits 200 bucks. Watch and learn...

Lets assume that the average driver puts on 12,000 miles per year. Let's assume that the car he uses gets 30 mpg for a total of 400 gallons of fuel. Right now local gas is $4.35/gal (.959/l) for a yearly fuel cost of $1740. When gas was at its highest local fuel prices were about $6.58/gal (1.45/l), equating to a fuel cost of $2632. The difference? $892 per year. So you're a high mileage kind of guy. Ain't gonna happen, 'cause this sucka isn't built for high mileage.

At <$900/year in savings, how many years are you going to have to mortgage that fancy new $40k electric car to get a return?

What's that? You want to get one just for the short grocery trips? Fine. Your rate of return just dropped 'cause you're using the car less. 

Let's add in the cost of licensing, registering & insuring the additional vehicle in your stable and your savings just got lost in a flurry of dollar bills to said vendors.

It makes absolutely no economic sense at this point to own an electric car, with damn few exceptions. Sure, if you want to assuage your guilty conscience for using oil, spend away. Just remember that 2/3 of the energy (= oil) dedicated to a product's life is in the manufacturing of said product, not the operation thereof.

Look down your nose and harrumph all you want. Most objections raised here pose legitimate questions. Once again you have failed to provide real answers.


----------



## dona83

Keep the heater off, wear a good jacket and bring a hot cup of coffee to keep you warm.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Agreed with MacDoc. Rising oil and gas rates would be sufficient to tip the argument in favour of electric vehicles.


Raising oil and gas rates can make even a horse look like a great option. The electric car may, however, be the worst possible choice. Let the market work this out.


----------



## eMacMan

dona83 said:


> Keep the heater off, wear a good jacket and bring a hot cup of coffee to keep you warm.


Can't see that doing the trick in Winterpeg or Saskadoom. Cold weather also significantly reduces the juice available from the battery even if you are not trying to use it for heat.


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla moving into the big leagues....*

*It's Official: Tesla Inks Toyota Deal*



> Tesla is officially no longer dependent on the success of its niche electric sports cars and sedans. The perennial startup first announced plans in July for an agreement with Toyota to develop an electric version of the RAV4 featuring a Tesla powertrain. Now it's in writing. Tesla filed a form with the Unites States Securities and Exchange commission on Wednesday disclosing its $60 million agreement with Toyota.


*And don't miss the WIred article on Tesla founder Elon Musk:*

*How Elon Musk Turned Tesla Into the Car Company of the Future*


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Tesla moving into the big leagues....*
> ]


That's too bad. I had hoped to see them begin an independent car company instead of becoming a contractor.


----------



## CubaMark

A quick read of the attached article would put your mind at ease. Parts supplier to Toyota and Daimler just gives Tesla the breathing room to do exactly that - fulfil their plan of being an independent car company. 



> Three months after the Model S unveiling, the federal government announced that it would loan Tesla $465 million to bring the sedan to market as part of the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program. Established manufacturers received substantially more to develop their electric vehicle programs. Ford, for instance, was awarded $5.9 billion, and Nissan got $1.6 billion. Musk relished pointing out that, unlike Tesla, those recipients of larger loans weren’t even selling electric vehicles.





> Model S production will start in 2012, less than two years from now. To help him pull it off, Musk has hired an impressive roster of seasoned automotive engineers and manufacturing specialists. Gilbert Passin, the former Toyota executive in charge of the Nummi factory, joined Tesla in January. Peter Rawlinson, formerly a top engineer with Jaguar and Lotus, is now Musk’s top Model S engineer.
> 
> Rawlinson is tasked with rapidly finalizing the sedan’s specifications in advance of fabrication, and he hosts Musk’s walk-throughs. He guides his boss over to the “noise, vibration, and harshness” team, whose job is to minimize all three unwanted attributes. The engineers replay their latest simulation, which shows that the Model S will be quieter and smoother on the road than most other cars.


----------



## Macfury

Beauty!


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Agreed also that the first wave will be urban commuters in need of a second vehicle for regular short hop trips.


Except that most urban condo dwellers don't have electrical outlets in their underground garages... so how the heck would you charge the thing?

I know, not all urbanites are condo dwellers, but a fair chunk of 'em are.... plus all the urban drivers who only have street permit parking....


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## MacDoc

> Heat from the batteries may work for a wimpy TO winter. But when temps dip below 0°C unless GM quadruples the normal insulation and seals all the air leaks that just won't do the trick.


you continue to try and throw silly outliers......the cars are designed for major urban locations in 1st world nations -
Montreal is the only one that even remotely might be an issue...the NY Cities Londons, Paris, Tokyo, Bejing, Mexico City etc etc ( China far and away leads the world in EV vehicles of all sorts...millions of them ) - that's the market - not podunk Alberta
Cold day - take the main vehicle.
The Volt is NOT something to take as the norm.
Plug in Prius and others coming in the mid $20k with a lease of $299 a month and 150k battery pack
do recall the subsidies are very large on these...$10k ( which is ridiculous ) in Ontario.
Do the numbers at $2 a litre as it is in Europe.....= free car

You don't want one - don't buy one...the rest of the major urban areas are prepping.....5300 charging stations being installed in Michigan NOW.
Not exactly an early adopter region with a lot of wealth...and yes it happens to be a bit cold there.



> GM: More Than 5300 EV Charging Stations Coming To Michigan « WWJ ...
> 13 Oct 2010 ... GM-installed charging stations for use by its employees in Michigan will include 34 at the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly center where the Volt


wwj.cbslocal.com/.../gm-more-than-5300-ev-charging-stations-coming-to-michigan/

you sound like a kerosene vendor with Edison striding over the horizon....

an EV early on will play the same role as many of us already do with mcycles and scooters...low running cost second vehicle.
For some it's primary and as the older fleet age - the EVs will become primary over the next two decades as more choice and lower cost plus peak oil combine to change the economics.

Electricity WILL be the driving force - not i/c...HOW that electricity is derived for the vehicle is a very different set of issues.
Most likely some form of fuel cell over time rather than what we consider a battery now...there is a merge in that as well..


----------



## CubaMark

*Should You Buy Or Lease Your Electric Car?*



> Leasing is a very tempting proposition and probably the easiest method for getting a new electric car in your garage.
> 
> Why? Because if you're leasing you're much less likely to need a large down-payment before you take the keys, meaning you can sign your name on the dotted line and pay the monthly installments with very little hassle and no great initial expense. The same applies at the end of the lease period. Final payments can often be a bit hefty, so leasing takes away the worry of needing a large cash sum lying about.


(All Cars Electric)


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## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> That's too bad. I had hoped to see them begin an independent car company instead of becoming a contractor.


*...although here's a writer who thinks producing actual cars isn't the viable path for Tesla...*

*Touched By Tesla: Why Tesla’s Future Lies In Engineering*



> ...many industry analysts remain skeptical of its ability to go-it alone. Tesla has previously said it will produce a Sedan, Cabriolet, Van and Crossover/SUV based on the Model S, its current production scale is a long way under what could be achieved by a mainstream automaker.
> Unless that is, it sells the knowledge that makes the company so very special.


(All Cars Electric)


----------



## MacDoc

Yep - EV is in the stage that i/c was at the same time 100 years ago - hundreds of small start ups which will eventually be weeded out .
Financing is absolutely the key and that is where gov can exert leverage by putting the carbon cost onto i/c vehicles and subsidizing low carbon vehicles.


----------



## eMacMan

Did the number crunching for local conditions and even threw in a very generous fudge factor. A more accurate payback guess would be well over 100 years.

If gasoline goes up by 100 % expect similar or even more exaggerated electricity cost spikes. After all the purpose of cost increases will be to discourage use. 

Even at European prices payback is still over 40 years as my fudge factors were that generous.


----------



## bsenka

dona83 said:


> Keep the heater off, wear a good jacket and bring a hot cup of coffee to keep you warm.


If you don't have a good heater, it's impossible to drive a car in the winter. Windows fog up in mild winters, and frost right over in _real_ winter. A good heater is at least as important of a safety feature as lights and brakes.


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## eMacMan

So did the cost comparison between the Prius and an Toyota Yaris. Fair comparison in my books.

Highway mileage should be about identical with perhaps a slight advantage to the Yaris. Allowing for one replacement of the battery pack the price difference is about $12,000.

This time we will assume about 16,000 kms of city driving a year. A bit high perhaps but we are trying to swing the results as favourably as possible for the Prius.

With that kind of driving the Yaris should get between 14 and 15 kms per litre. Thats about 90 litres or call it $100/month or $1200/year. While a 50% gas savings is no doubt exaggerated we will go with that. Savings about $600/year or an absolute minimum payback period of 20 years.

Now that is assuming you live somewhere that the temperature stays between 15°C and 22°C eliminating the need to use the heater and or A/C. In real life, temps are likely to be warmer than that for at least 5 months of the year or lower than that for a similar period. So in real life a guess at potential cost savings is closer to $33/month or $400/year. About a 30 year payback. No doubt this would require a second battery change which would offset any additional savings should fuel costs rise.

The Prius is certainly a much better buy than the Volt and while I would not spend the additional cash, it certainly is worth thinking about if you would normally buy a car in the Prius price range; one which probably would not deliver the city fuel economy of a Toyota Yaris or a Mazda 2.


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## vacuvox

According (again, sorry) to the national automobile lobby group, the CAA, annual costs of buying, keeping and maintaining a Prius feels about the same to your wallet as a normal cheap economy car and less expensive than a minivan - on average. The CAA's math is clear and illustrated in full in the pamphlet - which is designed as a budgeting tool for car owners. Funny thing - I just realized the only Prius owners I know are accountants.


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## jef

eMacMan said:


> So did the cost comparison between the Prius and an Toyota Yaris. Fair comparison in my books.
> 
> Highway mileage should be about identical with perhaps a slight advantage to the Yaris. Allowing for one replacement of the battery pack the price difference is about $12,000.


If you include the price of a battery pack for the Prius, it would be fair to also include the price of a transmission replacement in the Yaris - both are designed to last or the life of the car. Or, a more accurate comparison would simply leave out the battery replacement...


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## eMacMan

jef said:


> If you include the price of a battery pack for the Prius, it would be fair to also include the price of a transmission replacement in the Yaris - both are designed to last or the life of the car. Or, a more accurate comparison would simply leave out the battery replacement...


Life of the car not 20 years. If you tried to get 20 years out of a battery pack on a Prius, the fuel economy of the Prius would certainly drop down to roughly the same as the Yaris for at least the last 5 years. As to the transmission a lot depends on mileage and care. I would certainly expect the transmissions in the Yaris to hold up for 320,000 Kms if properly maintained. Clutch is a different matter but I believe the cost of a clutch is probably about $1000 versus $2500-$4000 for a battery pack. 

The cost of maintenance and insurance should be about they use the same engine. 

Like I said; a maximum $400 a year fuel savings would not be sufficient motivation to go Prius. OTH if I was a cab owner or other high mileage city driver that would tip the scales more towards the Prius.

As I said consistently getting double the fuel mileage out of the Prius is extremely unlikely. The 33% figure should at least be possible in the city but even that is not a certainty especially as I placed the Yaris fuel economy 15% lower than my own experience suggests is reasonable. 

The appeal of the Prius is aimed entirely at people who would normally spend $25-30,000 on a car and would not normally expect their vehicles to deliver anything close to a year round fuel average of 37MPG (US) which the Yaris is indeed capable of.


----------



## jef

eMacMan said:


> Life of the car not 20 years. If you tried to get 20 years out of a battery pack on a Prius, the fuel economy of the Prius would certainly drop down to roughly the same as the Yaris for at least the last 5 years. As to the transmission a lot depends on mileage and care. I would certainly expect the transmissions in the Yaris to hold up for 320,000 Kms if properly maintained. Clutch is a different matter but I believe the cost of a clutch is probably about $1000 versus $2500-$4000 for a battery pack.


Your information is incorrect. Battery packs are not that expensive and so far have proven to last for the life of the car.

So far, there are very few cases of Prius batteries needing replacement. None that I have been able to find (Priuschat.com and GreenHybrid.com track these topics) that have had to be replaced due to battery failure. The battery myths continue to pop up in the media and are the subject of the most common questions I get asked about my 2001 Prius (180,000 kms - original everything).

There are many documented with well over 300,000 kms - the Vancouver Taxi case made it to 450,000 kms on the original battery and was still going strong when Toyota replaced the Taxi and used it for research. In Japan, the Prius has been on the road since '97. Toyota recently ran a diagnostic on mine and it is still at 98% of new capacity. 

Actual impact on fuel economy is not supposed to drop until the battery is below 50% of capacity because of the way the computer manages the energy flow. I know owners (they were my neighbours) of the original 1997 Prius in Japan who are still on the original battery and the hybrid system is still doing its job.

You can purchase a Prius battery on ebay for between $800 and $1,000 (from an accident car) and Toyota's replacement cost is about $2,400. The only case I know of people buying them was due to flood damage - not battery failure - the battery and most of the car was submerged. 

If you hear of a battery replacement in a Prius, it is most likely the 12V battery - just like any other car.

I do not expect to have to replace the battery in my Prius as long as I own it and I hope the car is on the road for another 10 years - it still drives like new (never had to change brake pads either)!

Comparing a Yaris to a Prius is silly - the Yaris is an econobox - the Prius is mid-sized, full of electronic wizardry and a much nicer car to drive.


----------



## MacDoc

:clap: ....nothing like hands on reports to pop silly ( and wrong ) speculation. 

and exactly on the Yaris versus Prius class of vehicle.

*Have you tried to see how far you can go on electric only - do you have some control over the mix?

•••

I consider this the second round of the class

Peugeot launches 3008 Hybrid4, world's first production diesel through-the-road hybrid

by Sam Abuelsamid (RSS feed) on Aug 23rd 2010 at 8:25PM








Peugeot 3008 Hybrid4 – Click above for high-res image gallery

Peugeot's first production hybrid is finally coming to market next spring, but most of the technical details are out now. The 3008 Hybrid4 is the first light-duty diesel hybrid to come to market – it is also the first through-the-road (TtR) hybrid.








The mid-size crossover uses a system that consists of a fairly conventional 163-horsepower 2.0-liter inline-four diesel engine driving the front wheels and a 37-horsepower electric motor at the rear axle, which operates completely independent of the internal combustion drivetrain – hence, "through-the-road hybrid."

The diesel drives through an electronically controlled and mechanized six-speed manual gearbox that can either be shifted manually or left in full automatic mode. A more powerful 8 kilowatt high-voltage integrated starter-generator on the engine provides automatic start-stop capability as well as the ability to charge the nickel-metal hydride battery from the engine.

When the battery has sufficient charge, the electric motor alone can propel the 3008 at lower speeds or provide on-demand all-wheel-drive. The rear-mounted motor also provides regenerative braking to charge the battery. The combined output of the two powerplants? 200 horsepower and 369 pound-feet of torque.

This mechanically simpler TtR hybrid drive allows Peugeot to produce a less expensive diesel hybrid than would be possible with a power-split system like the one used by Toyota, all while taking advantage of the highway cruising efficiency of compression ignition. The 3008 Hybrid4 is rated at 61.9 miles per gallon (U.S.) on the EU combined driving cycle with CO2 emissions of just 99 grams per kilometer. Eventually, Peugeot will also add a plug-in version of the Hybrid4 with a lithium-ion battery. Click past the jump for the full skinny after looking over our high-res gallery below.

*


> PRESS RELEASE
> 
> THE PEUGEOT 3008 HYBRID4 – THE WORLD'S FIRST DIESEL HYBRID VEHICLE
> 
> * Powered by a 2.0 litre 163 bhp HDi diesel engine and a 37bhp electric motor
> * Potential 74.4mpg, with 99g/km of CO2
> * All electric mode (Zero Emission Vehicle)
> * A maximum combined power output of 200 bhp
> 
> The Peugeot 3008 Crossover, with HYbrid4 technology, is the first diesel 'Full Hybrid' production car in the world
> 
> By launching the world's first diesel full hybrid vehicle - the 3008 HYbrid 4 - Peugeot will be writing a new chapter in motoring history. The combination of a fuel efficient 2.0 litre 163 bhp HDi diesel engine and a 37 bhp electric motor is the optimal combination for a hybrid vehicle. Unlike previous hybrid vehicles which have chosen to use a less fuel efficient petrol engine, the Peugeot 3008 HYbrid4's diesel engine provides superior Combined Drive Cycle fuel consumption of 74.4mpg, and CO2 emissions of 99g/km.
> 
> The use of diesel hybrid technology also brings a range of other benefits:
> 
> * High performance combined with excellent driveability
> * Freedom and simplicity of use with the possibility of choosing four different operating modes: ZEV (Zero Emission Vehicle), Four-wheel drive, Auto and Sport
> * Silent operation, when driving in electric only mode
> * Peace of mind offered by the safety inherent in a four-wheel drive vehicle
> * Environmental friendliness with CO2 emissions from 99g/km
> 
> 
> The Peugeot 3008 Hybrid4 is designed to appeal to demanding, technophile customers who are in search of a rewarding and original vehicle.
> 
> In terms of performance, the Peugeot 3008 HYbrid4 benefits from the combined power of the HDi diesel engine and electric motor during acceleration and when an immediate surge of power is required (the "boost" function). The maximum combined power output is 200 bhp, 163 bhp from the 2.0 litre HDi FAP diesel engine and 37 bhp from the electric motor. A maximum torque of 500 Nm is available, split with 300Nm at the front from the HDi diesel engine and 200 Nm at the rear generated by the electric motor.
> 
> To manage all the available performance a control selector mounted on the centre console enables the driver to choose between four different operating modes.


very extensive info continues

more

Peugeot launches 3008 Hybrid4, world's first production diesel through-the-road hybrid — Autoblog Green
*
I used to adore driving the 504 wagon in France...nice cars..
*


----------



## CubaMark

Oh God, no!

*The 2011 Nissan Leaf May Have An iPhone App, But Runs Windows*



> ...while parts of the navigation system and energy consumption software are proprietary to Nissan and smartphone-ready applications for the Leaf are available on devices powered by the major software platforms, the heart of the Nissan Leaf’s operating system is powered by Microsoft’s Windows Embedded Automotive 7.




(AllCarsElectric)

Which brings to mind...

*If Microsoft made cars*

At a recent COMDEX, Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated: "If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving twenty-five dollar cars that got 1000 miles to the gallon." In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating: If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics: 

1. For no reason whatsoever your car would crash twice a day. 

2. Every time they repainted the lines on the road you would have to buy a new car. 

3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you would just accept this, restart and drive on. 

4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn, would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine. 

5. Only one person at a time could use the car, unless you bought "Car95" or "CarNT." But then you would have to buy more seats. 

6. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, reliable, five times as fast, and twice as easy to drive, but would only run on five per cent of the roads. 

7. The oil, water temperature and alternator warning lights would be replaced by a single "general car default" warning light. 

8. New seats would force everyone to have the same size butt. 

9. The airbag system would say "Are you sure?" before going off. 

10. Occasionally for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key, and grab hold of the radio antenna. 

11. GM would require all car buyers to also purchase a deluxe set of Rand McNally road maps (now a GM subsidiary), even though they neither need them nor want them. Attempting to delete this option would immediately cause the car's performance to diminish by 50% or more. Moreover, GM would become a target for investigation by the Justice Department. 

12. Everytime GM introduced a new model car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car. 

13. You'd press the "start" button to shut off the engine.​


----------



## CubaMark

*Nissan has begun mass-production of the Leaf EV!
*


> Late Thursday night, the very first LEAF was being assembled in Oppama, Japan. It rolled down the line, much like any other car. In fact, just like the Chevy Volt which will be built in Michigan, the LEAF occupies the same production space as some of its peers, in this case the Nissan Cube, and the unexpectedly very hot (even to Nissan), the Juke.


_Interesting to watch the assembly-line video. They've managed a workflow in which the Leaf and other Nissan models are mixed on the line... _





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.





(GM-Volt.com)


----------



## MacDoc

Getting there - this range will do thanks



> *German electric car sets new distance record*
> October 26, 2010 Really motoring: An electric Audi travelled 600km from Munich to Berlin without recharging
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mirko Hannemann, chief executive of DBM Energy, gets out of the "Lekker Mobil", an Audi A2 with an electric engine, in front of Berlin's Brandenburg Gate on Tuesday. The electric car drove 600km from Munich in southern Germany to Berlin without recharging its battery, setting what organisers hailed as a new world distance record for an everyday vehicle._
> 
> An electric car drove from Munich in southern Germany to Berlin without recharging its battery on Tuesday, setting what organisers hailed as a new world distance record for an everyday vehicle.
> 
> The yellow and purple Audi A2 car took around seven hours to complete the 600-kilometre (372-mile) stretch and arrived in the sumptuous courtyard of the economy ministry in Berlin just before 8:00am local time (0600 GMT).
> 
> "If any journalists want to charge up their iPhones, we still have some electricity left," quipped driver Mirko Hannemann, 27, as he stepped out of the four-door car to show off the battery.
> 
> Economy Minister Rainer Bruederle welcomed the team on arrival and was even tempted into taking a spin around the courtyard, although not behind the wheel.
> 
> "They even had the heating on. It really was a luxury journey," Bruederle told a large crowd of journalists and photographers on a chilly Berlin morning.
> 
> At a later press conference, Bruederle said: "Welcome to a world record. Before, electric cars could typically only go 60 or 70 kilometres before recharging. This is a technological leap forward."
> 
> Car manufacturers hope that electric cars will grow to dominate the automotive industry but consumers see the short range of the vehicles as a major downside.
> 
> Japanese researchers have driven an experimental electric car more than 1,000 kilometres around a track, but the two German firms, lekker Energie and DBM Energy, said their vehicle was the furthest travelled by an everyday car.
> 
> Chancellor Angela Merkel's government aims to have one million electric cars on the road by 2020, but Germany's car giants have been slow off the starting grid and are now scrambling to catch up with their Asian rivals.
> 
> World-leading luxury car maker BMW and Europe's biggest manufacturer Volkswagen have both said they intend to launch their first vehicles in 2013.
> 
> In contrast, last week, Japan's Nissan said it had started mass producing its Leaf electric car and is poised to put it on sale both at home and in the United States.
> 
> Nevertheless, Berlin has offered sweeteners to jump-start its national champions and hopes that by 2050, gas-guzzlers could be a thing of the past.
> 
> "Let the message go out to the world. Germany is again a technological leader," said Bruederle.


German electric car sets new distance record


----------



## bsenka

MacDoc said:


> Getting there - this range will do thanks
> 
> 
> German electric car sets new distance record


Now if they can make it recharge fully in under 3 minutes, and sell the car for under $20,000, we might be talking


----------



## CubaMark

Nice quote: *"If any journalists want to charge up their iPhones, we still have some electricity left," quipped driver Mirko Hannemann, 27, as he stepped out of the four-door car to show off the battery.*

Too bad the story gives us zero clue as to WHY this car can go 600km, when on this side of the pond they're only able to offer 40-55km on a charge. Any more details out there?


----------



## CubaMark

*MItsubishi had to redesign the i-MIEV to meet U.S. NHTSA Crash Test requirements... oh, and also to fit big, fat American bodies...* 





> The widening is thought to be due in part to structural reinforcements--with the added benefit that it will better accommodate larger, heavier, wider U.S. bodies.
> The production version of the 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV for North America will be unveiled in three weeks at the 2010 Los Angeles Auto Show.


(AllCarsElectric blog)


----------



## FeXL

A fool for the Volt



> What little gasoline savings the vehicles achieve could be had through cheaper alternative means. And electrics don't reliably reduce greenhouse gas emissions, since, as often as not, the electricity to charge their batteries will come from coal-fired plants.
> 
> The Obama Energy Department has suggested that, with the help of federal money, manufacturers can ramp up mass production and bring the price of electric-car battery packs down 70 percent by 2014 - thus rendering the cars more affordable.
> 
> But J.D. Power is skeptical. "Declines of any real significance are not anticipated during the next 5 years," the report notes, adding that "the disposal of depleted battery packs presents yet another environmental challenge."
> 
> Nor are industry and government close to resolving the lack of a nationwide recharging infrastructure - or the vehicles' poor performance in cold weather or on hilly terrain.


and

McGuinty promises to boost plug-in car



> In the U.S., the Volt, a plug-in electric hybrid that is more advanced than traditional hybrids such as the Toyota Prius because it is propelled solely by its electric motor, will cost about $40,000 and there are to be government rebates worth $7,500.
> 
> Sources say McGuinty, a vocal booster of the Volt since it was first unveiled as a concept car in 2007, plans cash incentives in Ontario of up to $10,000.


So, lemme get this straight...

The manufacturers get subsidies, the buyers get subsidies, and the taxpayers get the shaft. And, in the big picture, little real energy is saved.

Does that about sum it up?


----------



## SINC

Hmm, maybe there is hope?

German electric car sets world record - UPI.com


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Hmm, maybe there is hope?
> 
> German electric car sets world record - UPI.com


At last a partial explanation of the earlier posting. A quantum leap in battery technology. Wonder how well the new battery design will do over time.


----------



## jef

FeXL said:


> A fool for the Volt
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> McGuinty promises to boost plug-in car
> 
> 
> 
> So, lemme get this straight...
> 
> The manufacturers get subsidies, the buyers get subsidies, and the taxpayers get the shaft. And, in the big picture, little real energy is saved.
> 
> Does that about sum it up?


It does if you accept all the misinformation in these articles. Assuming that 'little energy is saved' because electricity is generated by coal burning plants is just stupid but it is often repeated. Fossil fuel used for power generation is over 80% more efficient than fossil fuels burned in your car so tapping into the grid is far more efficient than a gas station stop. 

Even if the positive impact is 5 years away (possibly longer if articles like this keep generating a negative spin), we don't get there any quicker by convincing ourselves that it is not viable today. The more subsidies and early adopters there are, the faster the benefits will impact all of us as reduced emissions.

Battery recycling is part of the design of Toyota's hybrid batteries - and GM is looking at ways of using retired batteries to store energy to be returned to the grid once their full capacity has been reduced. The 12 volt batteries in every car today are still a bigger environmental problem - they were not designed to be recycled or reused and usually end up in landfills. Why aren't there more articles condemning them?

All vehicles perform poorly in cold weather and on hilly terrain; non-electric vehicles simply use more power inefficiently to deal with it. Energy consumption increases for all vehicles in these conditions, not just hybrid and electric vehicles. 

The one main point of the article is true - if we do not invest in new technologies and alternative fuels, we certainly won't ever benefit from the savings.


----------



## eMacMan

jef said:


> ...The 12 volt batteries in every car today are still a bigger environmental problem - they were not designed to be recycled or reused and usually end up in landfills. Why aren't there more articles condemning them?...


Probably because the acid and the heavy metals can be recovered. The core charge is intended to insure that the old batteries are indeed returned for recycling.


----------



## SINC

jef said:


> The 12 volt batteries in every car today are still a bigger environmental problem - they were not designed to be recycled or reused and usually end up in landfills. Why aren't there more articles condemning them?


Probably because they ARE being recycled and have been for over 15 years now in our city. Not only does Canadian Tire have a battery drop off depot (for a $5 fee unless you buy a new battery from them, then it's free), but our city recycle yard accepts batteries for recycling twice annually during special drop off days.


----------



## Macfury

jef said:


> The more subsidies and early adopters there are, the faster the benefits will impact all of us as reduced emissions.


That's complete mythology. Subsidies more often pick the wrong horse because they're based on nothing but the dreams of proponents. Let the market decide whether it wants electric cars, not some bureaucrats with only minimal understanding of markets and economics.


----------



## CubaMark

*Check out this beauty - built in 1947, with a 40km range and top speed of (at least) 22mph!*





> "Tama Electric Car" was created by Tokyo Electric Cars Company – one of the ancestors of Prince Motor Co., Ltd., which later merged with Nissan. Developed by military aviation engineers who lost their jobs at the end of the war, the Tama utilized replaceable lead-acid batteries and *generated 3.3kW* power and a *top speed of 35 km/h (22 mph)*. With a *cruising range of 65 km (40 miles)*, they were used mainly as taxis. A compact pickup version was available as well.
> 
> Legend has it that the Tama marked a maximum speed of 35.2km/h (22 mph) and cruised for 96 km (60 miles), far better than the brochure specifications, in a Ministry-conducted test. The car was sold until 1950, when Japan's post-war recovery was well underway and oil supplies were stabilized.


----------



## CubaMark

Bolivia: One of the poorest countries in our hemisphere, exploited by internal capitalists and foreign mining companies for so very long, is now poised to become a major player in the emerging world of electric vehicles:



> Bolivia is home to about 5.4 million metric tons of lithium, according to the U.S. Geological Survey. That’s enough of the lightest metal to make batteries for more than 4.8 billion electric cars.


Related articles:

Morales: Bolivia to make lithium batteries on own - BusinessWeek



> Morales has sought a foreign partner for Comibol, the state-owned mining company, to produce batteries domestically -- insisting the poor Andean country will no longer just export its minerals for the benefit of developed nations. Manufacturing jobs are essential to economic prosperity, he argues.


Bolivia to Start Producing Lithium in October for Export, Minister Says - Bloomberg


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> That's complete mythology. Subsidies more often pick the wrong horse because they're based on nothing but the dreams of proponents. Let the market decide whether it wants electric cars, not some bureaucrats with only minimal understanding of markets and economics.


How can you let a market based on an oil economy decide? The market is already rigged (pun intended) to favour oil.


----------



## Macfury

jef said:


> How can you let a market based on an oil economy decide? The market is already rigged (pun intended) to favour oil.


The market favours oil because it's the best, most flexible and economical fuel available. Saudi Arabia has just announced that, on proven reserves alone, it could supply the entire world for 80 years, never mind the supplies in the rest of the world:



> Top oil exporter Saudi Arabia has 264 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, and could continue to supply the world market for another 80 years, the country's oil minister said Monday.
> 
> "At current production levels the Kingdom could continue to supply crude oil for another 80 years, even if we never found another barrel," Ali Al-Naimi said in a speech in Singapore.


Saudi Naimi: Saudi Arabia Can Supply World For 80 Years Without New Reserves

What's the hurry? Let the market choose alternatives to oil as the price rises--or because the alternative can be supplied at a price lower than current oil prices.


----------



## hayesk

Macfury said:


> The market favours oil because it's the best, most flexible and economical fuel available. Saudi Arabia has just announced that, on proven reserves alone, it could supply the entire world for 80 years, never mind the supplies in the rest of the world:
> ...
> What's the hurry? Let the market choose alternatives to oil as the price rises--or because the alternative can be supplied at a price lower than current oil prices.


What if Saudi Arabia decides to set their own price of oil that we feel is too high?
DId they account for the growing demand for oil in developing countries?
What if Saudi Arabia is lying?
What if it takes more time to research and develop a suitable alternative? Especially if you don't want to subsidize research. And don't forget oil's use in other areas than just fueling cars.

Seems awfully foolish to put all your eggs in one basket.


----------



## hayesk

CubaMark said:


> Bolivia: One of the poorest countries in our hemisphere, exploited by internal capitalists and foreign mining companies for so very long, is now poised to become a major player in the emerging world of electric vehicles:


I suspect that's one of the reasons there is resistance to electric vehicles.

Look at all the subsidies being put into E85 (i.e. corn-based) fuel. It's not because corn-based fuel is cheaper or gives more bang for the buck than oil. It doesn't, and it's causing food prices to go up because farmers now farm corn instead of other food to collect on US government subsidies. 

Corn is being used because it grows in the US. Sugar cane makes a much better bio fuel, there is enough capacity to grow it, just not in the US.


----------



## jef

GE to buy 'tens of thousands' of electric cars

GE to order 'tens of thousands' of electronic cars - Oct. 29, 2010


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> The market favours oil because it's the best, most flexible and economical fuel available.
> 
> What's the hurry? Let the market choose alternatives to oil as the price rises--or because the alternative can be supplied at a price lower than current oil prices.


What is the real long term cost of burning oil when sustainable energy sources have yet to be developed. Today's market economy doesn't account for this.


----------



## Macfury

hayesk said:


> What if Saudi Arabia decides to set their own price of oil that we feel is too high?
> DId they account for the growing demand for oil in developing countries?
> What if Saudi Arabia is lying?
> What if it takes more time to research and develop a suitable alternative? Especially if you don't want to subsidize research. And don't forget oil's use in other areas than just fueling cars.
> 
> Seems awfully foolish to put all your eggs in one basket.


The Saudi numbers can easily be confirmed by independent geologists. My point is that this is Saudi alone. If we add the other proven reserves, we have "peak oil" occurring somewhere around 2125.

Only legitimately higher oil prices can create technologies that will compete with oil and gain widespread acceptance. If the price of oil permanently exceeds $100 a barrel, the US will simply convert its trillions of barrels of shale oil into a usable commodity. There's enough there to last a century, and that would certainly be enough of a cushion to create a replacement technology fed by demand, not by a government push.

In Toronto in the early 1990s there was a huge recycling market created by a doubling of tipping fees to public dumps. The entire market was killed when the city wanted to recoup the loss of revenue formerly collected in dumping fees, by slashing the price by 40%. That's the sort of thing that happens when government attempts to meddle with markets, subsidizing one thing, then another.


----------



## eMacMan

The issue with electric cars is not how clean or dirty power generation is. It is the additional strain on the system. If widely adapted electric cars would force the building of new power generation plants of all variety. Also the distribution system would have to be beefed up. This involves mega bucks.

The result much higher power bills. Throw in a carbon tax and an Al Gore Extortion Fee and the typical homeowner could see his electric bills triple or even quadruple and that's if he does not own an electric vehicle. As usual the ones hurt the most are seniors on fixed incomes.


----------



## hayesk

Macfury said:


> The Saudi numbers can easily be confirmed by independent geologists. My point is that this is Saudi alone. If we add the other proven reserves, we have "peak oil" occurring somewhere around 2125.


And I don't want to wait until 2120 before the "free market" decides that it might be a good idea to look into alternatives. Especially since it may take 50 years to develop a suitable alternative.



> Only legitimately higher oil prices can create technologies that will compete with oil and gain widespread acceptance.


The problem is that investors are too short sighted and greedy to invest in any long term solution. If a suitable technology takes more than a year or two to see marketability, it simply will not get the private funding to continue. It needs a boost, that boost needs to come from public sources, as it is in the public's interest to see alternative technologies to succeed.

I even see the same attitudes here. "Wind power is noisy, costly to produce, and kills birds - let's stop all wind power research." Who is to say wind power of the future will have the same problems? We have to learn to walk before we can run.


----------



## hayesk

eMacMan said:


> The issue with electric cars is not how clean or dirty power generation is. It is the additional strain on the system. If widely adapted electric cars would force the building of new power generation plants of all variety. Also the distribution system would have to be beefed up. This involves mega bucks.


Yes, but the revenue to make such investments into the infrastructure will come from users of electric cars.


----------



## FeXL

hayesk said:


> I even see the same attitudes here. "Wind power is noisy, costly to produce, and kills birds - let's stop all wind power research."


The biggest drawback to wind power is that it solves nothing. Coal or gas fired turbines need to be available at all times that the wind isn't blowing.


----------



## eMacMan

hayesk said:


> Yes, but the revenue to make such investments into the infrastructure will come from users of electric cars.


Only if the current electric vehicle subsidies are replaced with a hefty electrical infrastructure enhancement tax. Even so the environmental devastation associated with Hydro projects, coal generation and high voltage transmission lines will accelerate. 

Without that tax built into the purchase and licensing fees, it will be everyone on the grid that pays. And as I say it will be the poor and the elderly that will be hardest hit.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> The biggest drawback to wind power is that it solves nothing. Coal or gas fired turbines need to be available at all times that the wind isn't blowing.


Even here in SW AB the wind may be either too weak or too powerful to generate electricity. 

Obviously Solar and Canada is also a losing combination. We need the power the most when solar radiation is at its weakest. OTH I would certainly encourage those that do use A/C to install solar panels to limit the impact of their A/C on the grid. Of course that is pretty much limited to those living in TO.


----------



## CubaMark

Errr.... you guys do know that there's another thread to debate alternative energies, right?


----------



## chuckster

Meanwhile ... mixing 3D printing and alternative cars and Canadian content ...

Canadian firm prints out a car | TG Daily


----------



## CubaMark

*Panasonic Invests $30 Million In Tesla, For 2% Stake*



> Although Panasonic and Tesla have worked together in the past, under the new partnership, the duo will closely collaborate on the development and marketing of new Tesla battery packs that feature Panasonic lithium-ion cells.
> 
> “Panasonic offers the highest energy-density cells and industry-leading performance with cutting edge Nickel-type cathode technology.” Tesla CEO Elon Musk said in a statement late Wednesday, “We believe our partnership with them will enable us to further improve our battery pack while reducing cost.”
> 
> Under the terms of the deal, Panasonic purchased Tesla’s stock in a private placement for a price of $21.15 a share.


(Full story: TechCrunch)


----------



## hayesk

FeXL said:


> The biggest drawback to wind power is that it solves nothing. Coal or gas fired turbines need to be available at all times that the wind isn't blowing.


If only we had some way of storing energy? Hmmm...


----------



## MacDoc

> Monday November 1, 2010
> Nissan Unveils Two-seater Electric Concept
> 112diggsdigg   More...
> 
> 
> Tags:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the Leaf may be Nissan's current EV priority, that hasn't stopped the company from looking towards the future. The automotive giant recently unveiled a brand new concept that resembles a golf cart and could be the future of electric vehicles.
> Called the Nissan New Mobility Concept, the tiny car has a range of 100 kilometers and a maximum speed of around 75 kilometers per hour. The two-seater is all part of Nissan's plan to make EVs a much larger part of the automotive landscape. "We don't want EVs to be a niche product," corporate vice-president Hideaki Watanabe said.
> In addition to creating new cars, Nissan is also hoping to improve the infrastructure, making the use of EVs much easier. This includes installing charging stations at each one of its dealerships across Japan, with the goal of having two million chargers set-up by 2020.


Nissan Unveils Two-seater Electric Concept - GoodCleanTech


----------



## Dr.G.

Cool looking car, just not for St.John's. We have potholes and snow drifts bigger than the car. Such is Life.  Still, it would work in certain US communities.


----------



## ldphoto

Interestingly enough, the Ontario government was talking the future plans for energy yesterday, and they are committed to removing coal plants. About 50% of generation is nuclear at this time, and more reactors are planned. Yes, the price of electricity will increase. In fact, they admitted it could double within 20 years, even after adjusting for inflation. But that's the price to reduce pollution, smog and GHGs. What's the alternative? Cutting a few years of my lifespan because of diseases due to environmental pollutants?

Even if the price of electricity were to double in real terms, driving electric would still be cheaper than driving on gasoline today. Generally speaking, it takes about 4.5kWh of power to drive a Volt as far as the most efficient conventional vehicle can on 1 litre of gasoline, including charging inefficiencies of the electric car. Today, in Ontario, peak-time electricity costs 16.3cents/kWh including all the fees and HST. That would make the electric cost per equivalent liter of gasoline 73.4 cents. Since most people will charge their car overnight at non-peak times (10.9 cents per kWh), the cost goes down to 49.1 cents for a 1 liter equivalent of gasoline. Even if electricity prices were to double and gasoline remain the same, electric is still less expensive.


----------



## jef

A UK weekly show about electric vehicles - good one to start:

YouTube - fullychargedshow's Channel


----------



## CubaMark

*How far we (haven't) come!*

*AMC led the alternative charge*












> ...the performance of this low-tech, juiced-up version of American Motors Corp.’s novel small car – and of other similar industry and individual efforts of the time – points out how discouragingly incremental the gains made in the past three decades actually are. Or over the past century, for that matter.
> 
> The Electric Pacer of the late 1970s delivered reasonable acceleration, had a range of 80 km and its simple lead/acid battery pack could be plugged in at home and recharged overnight. Chevy’s Volt claims 65 km on battery power alone (its gas engine extends that), the Leaf 160 km and Toyota’s due-in-2012 RAV4 EV the same – from ultra-high-tech and ultra-pricey batteries and complex electronic systems.


(Globe & Mail - Drive)


----------



## CubaMark

*Chevy Volt coming to Canada*





> If you want to buy a Chevrolet Volt extended range electric vehicle (EV) next year, you’ll need to be living in Montreal, Quebec City, Toronto, Oshawa, Ottawa-Gatineau, Vancouver or Victoria. Today, Chevrolet announced those seven as the first markets to get the Volt in Canada when sales start after June of 2011.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *Chevy Volt coming to Canada*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


Hmmm at 42,000 USD I can't see the Volt coming in at under $50,000 CDN. Makes it an awfully expensive way to save on gas. The $25,000 price difference between the Volt and a top of the line econo car would mean a 30 year payback for most drivers, assuming they never used an ounce of gas and charged the thing with solar cells.


----------



## bryanc

CubaMark said:


>




Wow! I learned to drive in an AMC pacer. Despite all it's famously bad engineering (the electrical system in ours was fantastically flaky; you could tell the temperature by the speed at which the signal indicators flashed), it did have absolutely great visibility. Almost no blind spots at all.

I'd love to have one now. If it didn't run, I'd weld the doors shut, fill it with water, and call it a hot tub.


----------



## CubaMark

*It appears that ZENN is still "alive" (though frankly, I have no idea how they continue to have investors - are they actually shipping *any* product right now?)... here's the notice sent today to subscribers of it's news service...*



> Dear ZENN Enthusiast,
> 
> Last month, ZMC President & Chief Operating Officer Brian Cott was invited by Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada to present at their “Invest in Canada” event held in Shenzhen, China. The focus of the event was to highlight the many advantages when conducting business in Canada and to promote possible investment by Asian companies into Canada. The event was specifically automotive focused.
> 
> At the same time, many in the electric vehicle industry were gathering at the 25th annual “World Electric Vehicle Symposium and Exposition” or EVS25 also held in Shenzhen. Given that this conference was based in China, it was a clear opportunity for the Chinese government and automakers to demonstrate their commitment to advancing electric vehicle technology and market adoption. According to Brian, the scale of the conference was striking, with well over a hundred exhibitors including many European and American automakers who were generally represented by their joint-ventures with Chinese counterparts. There are serious government incentives in China to promote the development and purchase of electric vehicles and this was evidenced by both the number of participants and attendees at the show. This reflects an industry “primed” for the best enabling technology that will transform electric vehicles from ‘alternative’ to mainstream.
> 
> As part of its go-to-market strategy, ZMC has been cultivating relationships with OEMs globally. Our contacts at these OEMs are closely watching ZMC’s and EEStor’s progress as they are keenly aware of the significant advantages and differentiation inherent in deploying our technology and solutions. Given the sheer size and potential of the Chinese automotive market alone, it is a market that the Company will continue to pay close attention to.
> 
> From our perspective, the Chinese are experiencing the same EV ‘growing pains’ as the rest of the world. Global automakers are under immense pressure to demonstrate that electric vehicles are commercially viable, especially once government subsidies are no longer as significant a part of the mix, and that consumers WILL benefit from the eventual shift from fossil fuel-based power to electricity. Global automakers have largely come to the same conclusion about where the industry is heading although all are carving their own path to get there; we look forward to working as a strategic partner with many of them. This opportunity to revisit some of the OEMs in China was an excellent chance to further position ourselves as a truly global enabler of electric vehicle technologies.
> 
> Our website is currently undergoing a redesign. In the future, all stakeholders will be able to access the presentations from past events as well as see what speaking opportunities, conferences etc...are on our corporate agenda.
> 
> All the Best,
> 
> Ian Clifford
> Founder and Chief Executive Officer
> ZENN Motor Company


----------



## ldphoto

eMacMan said:


> Hmmm at 42,000 USD I can't see the Volt coming in at under $50,000 CDN. Makes it an awfully expensive way to save on gas. The $25,000 price difference between the Volt and a top of the line econo car would mean a 30 year payback for most drivers, assuming they never used an ounce of gas and charged the thing with solar cells.


My local dealer has told me that it won't be that expensive. I was told to expect about 35000$ after the 8260$ Ontario rebate. That's competitive with other fuel-efficient upscale small cars like the Audi A3 TDI and Lexus HS250h or a fully loaded Prius. The Volt has the performance and features to play in that market. Most people at this time are not buying a Volt to save on gas. Common reasons for buying include:

1) Not wanting to support enemy countries via oil purchases (yes, a good portion of our oil still comes from the middle-east despite the tar sands)

2) Reduce carbon footprint

3) It's a really cool vehicle that is a marvel of engineering and technology. It's the quietest car on the road and the cool factor is off the scale, especially the dashboard, with everything being LCD-based. It can be pre-heated or pre-cooled remotely via an iPhone app. It's a geek's dream car 

I already have a deposit down for mine. I'm interested mostly because of 3). As an Engineer, I love it when something new and radical emerges, and the Volt is a really big step forward. This car will be one of the few that will bring in a new era of computerized, electrified, efficient vehicles, and I want to be part of it.

If we all bought computers according to your rationale, Apple would be out of business by now. In the car business as much as in computers, people are willing to pay more for innovative engineering and image (yes, I admit it, image plays a role in it too)

Luc


----------



## CubaMark

ldphoto said:


> 1) Not wanting to support enemy countries via oil purchases (yes, a good portion of our oil still comes from the middle-east despite the tar sands)


From which "enemy countries" do we presently buy oil?



M.


----------



## hayesk

ldphoto said:


> In the car business as much as in computers, people are willing to pay more for innovative engineering and image (yes, I admit it, image plays a role in it too)


Well, I'll buy your innovative engineering argument, but image? That car is a pretty standard sedan style - there's nothing cool about the outside. The interior is new, but I've seen better looking ones.

That said, it's a good start. I'd like to see more manufacturers follow.


----------



## ldphoto

CubaMark said:


> From which "enemy countries" do we presently buy oil?
> 
> 
> 
> M.


A portion of our oil comes from middle-eastern countries that have been known to fund terrorism in the past. Granted, that's not too high on my radar, but it seems to be a big deal to a lot of folks south of the border, the most of the Volt market is.

Cheers,

Luc


----------



## CubaMark

ldphoto said:


> A portion of our oil comes from middle-eastern countries that have been known to fund terrorism in the past. Granted, that's not too high on my radar, but it seems to be a big deal to a lot of folks south of the border, the most of the Volt market is.


Heck, our neighbour to the south funds / conducts terrorism....


----------



## Whiskey

FullyCharged is a great little webTV show put together by Robert Llewellyn in Britain.
This 1st video is his experiences driving the iMiev for a year. 

YouTube - Fully Charged Farewell iMiev

YouTube - Fully Charged round-up


----------



## SINC

Well, well, who knew what GM's been up to?

The Hy Wire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_pC2zIgff0


----------



## CubaMark

SINCE - they were up to that almost a decade ago (GM Hy-Wire Concept). In the video, James May and the other dude from Top Gear look quite a bit younger than they do today 

The current GM hydrogen testing is being performed with the Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell.



However... the whole Hydrogen fuel cell idea remains challenged by one major problem: fuel distribution. At least with Electrics, the basic (badly in need of an upgrade) infrastructure is already there.

I suspect the ideal outcome will be fully-electric cars with new battery tech or ultra capacitors (what the heck is happening with EESTOR anyway?), combined with new home-based, high-voltage rapid-charging stations (perhaps themselves Fuel Cell based?). A lot of attention has been given to the long charging times for EVs at home (with a 220v socket).... if they succeed in finding a way to do rapid-charge (perhaps by trickle-charging a home-based battery / fuel cell, combined with fast-charge of the EV) then we're golden.


----------



## FeXL

*Should have no problems meeting their carbon emission target...*

...seeing as the cars can't be used.



> QUEENSLAND Police have been left red-faced over its choice of new "green" patrol cars.
> 
> The service boasts it is going green, taking delivery of 100 hybrid Toyota Camrys. Shame no one checked the boot size. Frontline officers say the boots of the new patrol cars are too small to carry all their essential equipment, including flak jackets and emergency equipment.
> 
> They can't put it on the back seats - that's where the criminals go - leaving them little option but to ditch it, or keep it under their feet in the front.
> 
> And the front seats are already a tight squeeze for officers wearing accoutrement belts and cargo pants.


----------



## MacDoc

> Well, well, who knew what GM's been up to?


more than a decade and spent well over a billion dollars on the effort including working proto-types.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qow9r5yhhBo



> Working Prototype: GM Hy-Wire Concept
> General Motors has been toying with hydrogen fuel cells and the drive-by-wire concept for many years, but take a look at the video below and you'll notice that the company actually has a working prototype. GM calls this Hy-Wire vehicle the first drivable concept car to use hydrogen fuel cell and by-wire technology


----------



## SINC

deleted


----------



## FeXL

> more than a decade and spent well over a billion dollars on the effort including working proto-types.


I find this statement hilarious & chock full of irony.

The US Navy, for $13 billion, can churn out a nuclear powered aircraft carrier in 8 years, research costs of $5 billion included.

The carrier will be nearly 1100 feet long, displace 100,000 tons, feature new technologies and have 2 nuclear reactors onboard.

In 10 years the General can blow over a billion bucks and produce a prototype. 

Of a car.

<snort>


----------



## hayesk

So get the US Navy design an build a car then. 

So what? A car has different properties than an aircraft carrier. You are making the assumption that an aircraft carrier is easier to design than an electric car. I'm not convinced that is true.


----------



## Macfury

*Volt gets fried by reviewers*

Short on efficiency and range:



> "When you are looking at purely dollars and cents, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. The Volt isn't particularly efficient as an electric vehicle and it's not particularly good as a gas vehicle either in terms of fuel economy," David Champion, the senior director of Consumer Reports auto testing center, said according to DetNews. "This is going to be a tough sell to the average consumer."
> 
> So, how much of a non-sense is the Volt? Well, GM advertises the model as being capable of an all-electric range of 29 to 33 miles on average. When it feels confident and the weather is all sunny and moderate, GM recorded even above 40 miles in electric mode.
> 
> Consumer Reports, however, disputes that claim by saying that during the harsh Connecticut winter, the model can only travel 25 to 27 miles.


Consumer Reports Knocks the Chevy Volt Senseless - autoevolution


----------



## Dr.G.

"Consumer Reports, however, disputes that claim by saying that during the harsh Connecticut winter, the model can only travel 25 to 27 miles." Let them try it in a typical St.John's winter's day. XX)

An interesting take on the Volt, however. I respect CR.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Let them try it in a typical St.John's winter's day. XX)


Perhaps you could ride to the corner store and most of the way back during a particularly harsh day in Newfoundland and Labrador.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Perhaps you could ride to the corner store and most of the way back during a particularly harsh day in Newfoundland and Labrador.


Good one, Macfury. We might have to clear out the snow drifts on our street first if the car is going to be in my driveway.


----------



## CubaMark

I stopped visiting ZENN's website on a regular basis (pain-in-the-butt flash splash page was slowing down my daily surfing, plus nothing ever changed).

The latest financial report is LOL funny. They're putting a positive spin on the fact that they're losing money less quickly than last quarter. I can't understand how anyone still has confidence in this company...



> For the three months ended December 31, 2010, net *losses* from continuing operations were *$743,488* or $0.02 per share.





> The 30% decrease in the loss from continuing operations in the current quarter as compared to the same quarter of the prior year, and the 24% decrease from the prior quarter (Q4 of fiscal 2010), are reflective of management’s continued focus on cost reduction, while advancing ZMC’s ZENNergy(TM) technologies and solutions.





> Progress updates on all of these initiatives will be communicated to the Company’s stakeholders as they mature and when such disclosure will not impair the value of our intellectual property, breach any applicable non-disclosure agreements or otherwise negatively impact our competitive advantage.


*ZENN Founder Ian Clifford* has stepped down as CEO, moving to the role of "Founder and Vice-Chair of the Board".

*Three updates since February 1st:*

1 February: ZENN Grants Options (PDF download)
14 February: Change in Management (PDF download)
25 February: 1st Quarter Results (PDF download)


----------



## Adrian.

Yea, Zenn is vapourware.

In other news, people trying to work ahead the lack of EV infrastructure. Crowd sourcing plug ins:

App Crowdsources EV Charging Infrastructure | Autopia | Wired.com


----------



## Macfury

I was stunned when I saw the low sales figures on the new electrics--I didn't expect skyrocketing sales, but:

Chevy Volt: January-321, February-281
Nissan Leaf: January-87, February-67


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I was stunned when I saw the low sales figures on the new electrics--I didn't expect skyrocketing sales, but:
> 
> Chevy Volt: January-321, February-281
> Nissan Leaf: January-87, February-67


Are these sales figures from just Ontario?


----------



## Adrian.

Dr.G. said:


> Are these sales figures from just Ontario?


No all of the US.


----------



## Dr.G.

Adrian. said:


> No all of the US.


What??


----------



## Adrian.

Yea, it's pretty pathetic. I think these rising fuel prices may start to swing people towards hybrid anyways. EV cars are still very limited. Imagine having to wait 8 hours to recharge your car. That sounds like a headache. I think hybrids are the way to go. As the technology becomes more and more advanced, electrical motors will do more and more of the propulsion and we may perhaps come to a vehicle closely resembling an EV.


----------



## eMacMan

These cars are designed for one buyer. Someone living in a moderate climate that commutes less than 10 miles each way to work with no lunch errands. And they buy a car only for commuting keeping an SUV or mini van in the garage for other things like vacations, taking the kids to hockey...

Other group would be stay at home seniors but these folks are unlikely to spend that sort of bread for twice weekly trips to the grocery store and an occasional trip to church.

A smaller group than many believe. Witness how few smart cars are on the streets and those at least have a good range should one decide to use them beyond their commuting needs.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> What??


Absolutely correct.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> These cars are designed for one buyer. Someone living in a moderate climate that commutes less than 10 miles each way to work with no lunch errands. And they buy a car only for commuting keeping an SUV or mini van in the garage for other things like vacations, taking the kids to hockey...
> 
> Other group would be stay at home seniors but these folks are unlikely to spend that sort of bread for twice weekly trips to the grocery store and an occasional trip to church.
> 
> A smaller group than many believe. Witness how few smart cars are on the streets and those at least have a good range should one decide to use them beyond their commuting needs.


I would love an electic car, but in St.John's, I don't see them as very viable. Just the amount of salt we put on the roads during winter, and the salty sea air that blows in off of the Atlantic Ocean would play havoc with the battery.


----------



## CubaMark

Hey Dr. G: You're a ZENN shareholder, right? Any insight on the following?










*TheEEStory.com: Shareholders Invade Zenn Board of Directors*



> According to a late night Zenn Motor Company press release, "certain shareholders of the Company" have received cooperation from Zenn management to allow three new individuals to take seats on the Zenn Board of Directors. Departing board members include Brian Cott, Stephen Rodgers & John R. Wallace.
> 
> Inbound board members include long time M&A expertJames Kofman, well known Canadian TV personality & journalist Allan Gregg and Roger Hammock, a Zenn shareholder possessing over 1mil shares of Zenn stock.


(TheEEStory.com)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Hey Dr. G: You're a ZENN shareholder, right? Any insight on the following?


Zero Emission of information. No Noise from the outgoing board members.


----------



## Dr.G.

CM, I had not heard of this taking place. I am down to my last 500 shares of ZENN. Basically, I bought low and sold near the top, so this is just my profits sitting there. So, if it goes to zero, I have lost nothing. If something actually does come out of the company, I can say that I got in early, since these 500 shares were bought ages ago. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

*Ooopsie!*

*Some Nissan Leaf electric car owners left stranded*



> ... the car's reported 100-mile range is proving to be fiction. Even worse, the range chart in the car changes during trips to give drivers less range than they thought they would have. Result: The car goes to "turtle" limp-along mode, then dies.




(USA Today)


----------



## CubaMark

*Ford’s electric Comuta Concept – 43 years after its debut*





> ...the Ford Comuta was a concept presented at the Geneva Motor Show in 1967. It was all-electric, had a top speed of 40 mph and a range of 40 miles, and that was 40 years ago. The upcoming electric Ford Focus has more than double the range (160 km) and double the top speed of 84 mph (135 km/h), but surely the Comuta is worth digging out of the archives for a second look. With modern motors and advanced controllers and high density batteries, the Comuta might be quite suitable for European cities such as London where road speeds haven't progressed much since the horse and cart.


(GizMag)


----------



## kloan

CubaMark said:


> *Ooopsie!*
> 
> *Some Nissan Leaf electric car owners left stranded*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (USA Today)


Sounds like they're using software to predict how much battery life will be left with current driving conditions, when they should just show the real battery life left.

Apple did the same thing with the iPhone's battery meter. One of the dumbest ideas in recent technology history IMO.


----------



## FeXL

*Bill Ford Sounds EV Retreat*

Most interesting and, way overdue:



> “Prior to the Model T, a third of all vehicles in this country were electric… this isn’t a new technology. The reason it died away was the ubiquity of charging. Today, we have the same issue.”


and



> “We’ve made a big bet on electric… but the pace at which that develops, I think anyone who can tell you that is lying.”


----------



## FeXL

*Brutal review of the Nissan Leaf & Chevy Volt...*

Linky.



> If the unpredictable limited range, lack of charging stations, and painfully long (minimum 8 hours) recharging time wasn't enough to convince you not to buy the all-electric Nissan Leaf, the Wall Street Journal reveals today another blow that resale values will be hard to come by since the $20,000 battery pack dies within 6-8 years.


I've said this time & again. If manufacturer's can't make the technology affordable, only the fringe element will ever purchase it. And that doesn't mean via gov't subsidy, either...

One other, tiny, niggling detail many forget:



> Slick TV ads boast PEVs' supposed environmental benefits, but what they don't tell you is that a substantial increase in the numbers of them on the road will require upgrading the nation's electricity infrastructure. Since half of all U.S. electricity is generated by coal, which produces greenhouse emissions, PEVs may not be any better than hybrid electric vehicles that do not need to be plugged in.


----------



## CubaMark

*My fascination with classic car EV conversions continues...*

*Electric 1960 German Auto Union car* (video)


----------



## Dr.G.

"Das auto", CM.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I was stunned when I saw the low sales figures on the new electrics--I didn't expect skyrocketing sales, but:
> 
> Chevy Volt: January-321, February-281
> Nissan Leaf: January-87, February-67


*I shared the surprise of MF and Dr. G. regarding sales figures... but apparently there are no Volts sitting on lots, waiting for a good home... they're selling as fast as they can make 'em...*

*Chevrolet Volt: Selling as planned, and a bright new star for the new GM*



> Now into the second quarter of 2011, General Motors announced last month it sold 608 Chevrolet Volts in March and had delivered about half of the demos intended for 595 participating Volt launch dealers.





> According to GM spokesman Rob Peterson, any doubtful conjecture would be misinformed.
> 
> “We’re right on target,” Peterson said, “Our sales target for 2011 is we’re going to build 10,000 units, and our expectation is we will sell every one of those 10,000 units.”
> 
> First off, only seven states are initially selling the Volt. This will increase to all states by year’s end. An ostensibly slow start has no one at GM caught by surprise, even if reporters and others may wonder.





> Chevrolet will sell more than 10,000 Volts for 2011. GM will actually build 15,000 Volts at its Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant this year. And while we’re on the topic, next year it won’t build 45,000, it will build 60,000.


(GM-Volt.com)


----------



## CubaMark

*A couple of e-vehicle developments of note...*

First: the *Geely McCar*












> One of the most imaginative concept cars we've ever seen turned up at Auto Shanghai this week .... it's an ultra compact, two-door, four-seater with a built-in, folding three wheeled electric scooter in the rear. When the scooter is docked, the car shares both its battery and electric motor to extend the all-electric range or ensure the scooter is fully charged.


*And some Canadian content:*

*The Lito Sora - the biggest, baddest electric motorcycle in Montreal*





> Montreal's Lito has thrown its hat into the ring with a new electric motorcycle that makes some pretty outrageous claims. A full 12 kilowatt-hours' worth of onboard lithium polymer batteries gives the Sora a massive 300 km range – that's 185 miles between charges.


(GizMag)


----------



## CubaMark

*Senate Refuses to End Tax Breaks for Big Oil*



> The Senate on Tuesday blocked a Democratic proposal to strip the five leading oil companies of tax breaks that backers of the measure said were unfairly padding industry profits while consumers were struggling with high gas prices.





> The defeat on Tuesday was expected since most Republicans were dug in against what they saw as a politically motivated plan in advance of the 2012 elections. Democrats had hoped that directing the savings toward the deficit would make it harder for Republicans to reject it.


(NYTimes)


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Senate Refuses to End Tax Breaks for Big Oil*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (NYTimes)


"The business of America is business." Bring back the Standard Oil monopoly.


----------



## MacDoc

> PEVs may not be any better than hybrid electric vehicles that do not need to be plugged in.


except 

a) even a coal station is way more efficient at coverting fossil to electric power than a IC engine to useable energy.
b) electric vehicles are efficient at converting electric to useable energy.
c) point source emissions are easier to deal with than dispersed ie replacing a coal plant with a nuclear or other low carbon solution
d) PHEV lends itself to solar small site solutions including parking lots etc and also takes advantage of off peak power.

There are other issues with EVs and PHEVs - your's isn't amongst them. PHEVs may actually provide a peak power buffer if a smart grid is implemented.

Son is on the hunt for a no insurance eBike to get him around - better not show him the monster above.


----------



## CubaMark

*Toyota first to build electric vehicles in Canada*





> Toyota Motor Manufacturing Canada will confirm Friday that the company plans to start assembling electric versions of its RAV4 sport utility vehicle in Woodstock under a partnership with California-based Tesla Motors within months, according to industry and government sources.
> 
> Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and federal Industry Minister Christian Paradis will join Toyota officials in announcing production of the electric vehicle at the company’s assembly plant in Woodstock for delivery in showrooms sometime next year.
> 
> “Every U.S. state and Canadian province would want to be home to electric vehicle manufacturing,” said an Ontario government source. “It confirms we’re on the right track.”


(Toronto Star)


----------



## CubaMark

*Ontario gives electric cars an $80M plughttp://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Ontario+gives+electric+cars+plug/5231369/story.html*http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Ontario+gives+electric+cars+plug/5231369/story.html



> Ontario will spend $80 million to spur investment in electric car-charging stations, Premier Dalton McGuinty said Tuesday, despite questions about the effectiveness of those stations.
> 
> McGuinty said the province is encouraging private-and public-sector participants to propose ways to build and test new facilities. The province would then provide seed money to selected projects.
> 
> Few details on the new car charging stations were available, including when the first location will be active.
> 
> "We'll drive as hard and as quickly as we can," McGuinty said Tuesday when pressed on details.
> 
> But one U.S. expert said Ontario's move was more about public relations than anything else.


(Ottawa Citizen)


----------



## CubaMark

_In the interest of balance, here's the ever-dour-sourpuss Margaret Wente on why electric cars are *not* the future..._

*The shocking truth about electric cars*



> The fantasy that electric cars are right around the corner doesn’t survive even the most cursory reality check. As Dennis DesRosiers, a leading auto consultant, points out, consumers simply won’t pay a $20,000 premium for a vehicle that doesn’t go very far, isn’t very convenient, and runs out of juice as soon as you turn on the air conditioner.
> 
> Consider hybrids. After a decade on the market, they’ve captured only 3 per cent of sales. To get to Mr. McGuinty’s 2020 target, green-minded Ontarians would have to buy at least 100,000 electric cars a year every year, starting right now. Total U.S. sales of electric vehicles are about 10,000 a year.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## dona83

I read it in this morning's Globe and Mail, it was a bit out of place. I agree with her that McGuinty shouldn't have plugged $80 million into the sector, but I disagree with her thoughts that electric cars will be irrelevant by 2020. The free market will see people adopt electric cars over time without any intervention. These things will make sense for getting groceries to commuting to work, with internal combustion engines staying for long distance trips and fun Sunday drives.


----------



## CubaMark

For those with a morbid curiosity and who like to watch slow-motion train wrecks... just a note that ZENN has shown a bit of life. They've updated their website (finally got rid of that horrid Flash animation intro) with a bunch of pretty pictures, "feel good" messages and 3rd quarter financials (stock up 0.04 to 0.70 - *ZNN.V*)

The financials (PDF: 84kb) are quite a chuckle (if you're not a stockholder, that is). They lost 1.4-million in the last quarter. They have 7-million in cash & short-term investments. So... they have, what, about five more months to go before they got nothing?

And do I detect a bit of testiness with their EESTOR partner? (emphasis added by yours truly)



> During the quarter, the Company continued its plan to simplify the organization, reduce costs and focus the Company’s resources on its investment in EEStor, Inc. The Company has been aligning its expenditures with the pace of development of EEStor power storage technologies. James Kofman, Chairman and Interim Chief Executive Officer of ZENN commented,
> 
> "The Company has gone through some tough but necessary changes over the past few months. We have reduced personnel and significantly reduced the cash burn rate going forward. At the same time we have worked hard to build on our relationship with EEStor. *The Company has ceased expenditures on the development of technology complimentary to EEStor's work and will evaluate future expenditures as and when developments occur at EEStor."*
> 
> Mr Kofman added, “We recognize shareholders are looking for updates on the progress at EEStor. As previously noted, our technology agreement precludes us from making announcements on new developments in advance of any official release by EEStor. We are in constant contact with our EEStor partners and are committed to the timely release of material developments, as soon as they occur."


----------



## eMacMan

MacDoc said:


> except
> 
> a) even a coal station is way more efficient at coverting fossil to electric power than a IC engine to useable energy.
> b) electric vehicles are efficient at converting electric to useable energy.
> c) point source emissions are easier to deal with than dispersed ie replacing a coal plant with a nuclear or other low carbon solution


Dyuh. That leaves a few things out. Like what happens if there is a large scale conversion. Means constructing more power plants and more transmission lines. Suddenly that extra efficiency is completely out the window. 

Nuclear is any thing but clean power. Especially as we still have no safe way to dispose of the spent but still very dangerous fuel rods. Not to mention the environmental costs of mining and refining Uranium. Obviously looking at Japan we still have quite a ways to go as far as preventing meltdowns.

Yes Thorium is a good alternative to Uranium powered nuclear. Pretty much eliminates the melt down threat, safer to mine and the spent fuel has a very much shorter half life. Trouble is even though a successful prototype was built and ran for many years back in the 60s, nobody wants to build them now as they do not produce weapons grade materials as a by-product.


----------



## eMacMan

I am putting this in the same category as I do the Zenn and those flying cars that Popular Mechanics promised would someday become the norm. Still it's an intriguing idea.



> *Tiny block of thorium could run your car forever*
> Thorium-powered car technology eliminates need to refuel
> by Mariella Moon
> 
> Range is a huge concern for anyone driving an electric vehicle. The fear of running out of juice with no means to recharge is very real as charging stations aren't exactly common. A zero-emission car technology currently being developed by Connecticut-based company, Laser Power Systems, completely eradicates this concern. In fact, if the technology ever takes off, you might never have to refuel again.
> 
> So what is Laser Power Systems' fuel of choice, exactly? It's a heavy-metal element called thorium. And according to the company, eight grams of the silvery metal is enough to power a car throughout its lifespan. Included in the set-up needed to run the car is a laser that heats the thorium. The heat surges produced by the element create steam from the water within a mini-turbine, providing the energy needed to run the car.
> 
> Unfortunately, tapping into thorium as an energy source wouldn't be easy. The element is plentiful enough — the United States has an estimated reserve of 440,000 tons of thorium. But no large-scale facilities dedicated to mining thorium exist, and it would take a lot of money to establish mining operations. Also, thorium is a nuclear power source like uranium, and that could raise some concerns. It's worth noting, though, that the element exhibits little radioactivity. So little, that it can be contained easily by something as ordinary as aluminum foil.
> 
> While the technology sounds promising, it's clearly in its infancy and we're bound to wait for quite some time before we see results. Larger issues like where to get the thorium aside, Laser Power Systems still has to work on a turbine small enough to fit under a car's hood, but powerful enough to run the vehicle. The company's CEO wants you to mark your calendars, though — he expects to have a prototype out by 2014.


Tiny block of thorium could run your car forever | Tecca


----------



## Macfury

The Nissan Leaf sold 1031 units last month,.

The Chevy sold 723 Volts in September, the highest single month’s sales since its December 2010 launch.

Those are actual numbers, folks, not short form for hundreds of thousands.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> The Nissan Leaf sold 1031 units last month,.
> 
> The Chevy sold 723 Volts in September, the highest single month’s sales since its December 2010 launch.
> 
> Those are actual numbers, folks, not short form for hundreds of thousands.


Try buying one - demand far exceeds supply.


----------



## eMacMan

To give you some idea how shifting cars to electric could impact power rates. Southern Albertans are looking down the throat of a fifty percent rate increase. Why? to pay for more transmission lines. The purpose of the lines? To funnel Alberta generated power to the US of A. No doubt when additional generating capacity is added to utilize those lines we will face another big rate increase to pay for that.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The Nissan Leaf sold 1031 units last month,.
> 
> The Chevy sold 723 Volts in September, the highest single month’s sales since its December 2010 launch.
> 
> Those are actual numbers, folks, not short form for hundreds of thousands.


As *jef* noted, the issue is not with people not wanting to buy them - it's a production / supply issue. Lots of people want a Volt, or a Leaf, but there are waiting lists.


----------



## jef

eMacMan said:


> To give you some idea how shifting cars to electric could impact power rates. Southern Albertans are looking down the throat of a fifty percent rate increase. Why? to pay for more transmission lines. The purpose of the lines? To funnel Alberta generated power to the US of A. No doubt when additional generating capacity is added to utilize those lines we will face another big rate increase to pay for that.


Since the vast majority of electric or plug-in hybrids will be charging at night, cities are more than ready to handle the demand. Toronto's existing infrastructure can handle 200,000 electric vehicles at night - the current demand on infrastructure is daytime use of air conditioners etc.

Here is one CBC article - there are lots of other articles with the power utilities' position spelled out to counter the infrastructure 'FUD'.

Is the grid ready for electric cars? - Technology & Science - CBC News


----------



## eMacMan

jef said:


> Since the vast majority of electric or plug-in hybrids will be charging at night, cities are more than ready to handle the demand. Toronto's existing infrastructure can handle 200,000 electric vehicles at night - the current demand on infrastructure is daytime use of air conditioners etc.
> 
> Here is one CBC article - there are lots of other articles with the power utilities' position spelled out to counter the infrastructure 'FUD'.
> 
> Is the grid ready for electric cars? - Technology & Science - CBC News


Nice theory. Trouble is the range on pure electrics, other than the prohibitively expensive Teslas, is so low that in many cases daytime charging will also be required. Especially true during the months when cars will need AC. Coincidentally those are the same months when daytime use is already pushing the grid to its limits. 

Throw in very small local Thorium reactors, so that additional transmission lines are no longer a factor, and you may have a winner as long as the price of the reactors does not drive up rates.


----------



## jef

eMacMan said:


> Nice theory. Trouble is the range on pure electrics, other than the prohibitively expensive Teslas, is so low that in many cases daytime charging will also be required. Especially true during the months when cars will need AC. Coincidentally those are the same months when daytime use is already pushing the grid to its limits.
> 
> Throw in very small local Thorium reactors, so that additional transmission lines are no longer a factor, and you may have a winner as long as the price of the reactors does not drive up rates.


The majority of cars are used for short commutes and it is these drivers that are most likely to purchase an electric car for commuting. For long range driving, a hybrid makes more sense. The point is that the utilities themselves don't foresee a problem with the transition in terms of meeting sudden increased demand based on driver tests conducted on electric vehicle use. However, the FUD increase is real.


----------



## Macfury

jef said:


> The majority of cars are used for short commutes and it is these drivers that are most likely to purchase an electric car for commuting. For long range driving, a hybrid makes more sense. The point is that the utilities themselves don't foresee a problem with the transition in terms of meeting sudden increased demand based on driver tests conducted on electric vehicle use. However, the FUD increase is real.


The utilities themselves continue to beg me to take control of my air conditioner so they can turn it down when they fail to supply enough power. Only a depressed economy has prevented electrical shortages in this province.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> The utilities themselves continue to beg me to take control of my air conditioner so they can turn it down when they fail to supply enough power. Only a depressed economy has prevented electrical shortages in this province.


Exactly - daytime A/C use is a much bigger supply problem than the slow charge required for electric cars mostly at night. I can't believe I actually agree with something MF says!


----------



## Macfury

jef said:


> Exactly - daytime A/C use is a much bigger supply problem than the slow charge required for electric cars mostly at night. I can't believe I actually agree with something MF says!


Except the peak power demand from homes is in the evening. The article you cite indicates considerable uncertainty about the effect a large number of electric cars might have on the system. I can believe that Hydro Quebec might be ready for this, but not Ontario.

However, with electric car sales as insipid as the recent reports, I imagine the grid is ready for the current fleet.

I might also add that it won't be long before government attempts to recoup lost gas taxes from electric owners.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> ...with electric car sales as insipid as the recent reports, I imagine the grid is ready for the current fleet.


You may find this information from GreenCarReports enlightening:



> Does General Motors have a problem with sales of its much-publicized, often-lauded Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric car?
> 
> If you're so inclined, you can find rather a lot of angry, superficial, misinformed coverage (often in right-wing venues) proclaiming the Volt a sales disaster that virtually no one is buying. Most of them follow one or more of the following story lines:
> 
> 
> GM is a lousy company that makes crappy cars (used to be true, not so much now)
> The bankrupt GM didn't deserve to be restructured by the U.S. government (certainly debatable, but old history at this point)
> The Volt is a joke, because no one will ever buy electric cars, and they're another Gummint failure in the making (not true, but it will take time for this to become obvious)





> ...there are reasons for the lower Volt sales total, including GM's summer shutdown of its Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant for retooling over four weeks just as Volt sales began to climb in the spring.
> 
> But the plant restarted before Labor Day, so production should be climbing, yet sales appear to remain anemic. General Motors, however, has stayed publicly confident. Part of the sales delay, it says, has to do with refilling the pipeline.


----------



## CubaMark

*and then there's this...*



> Imagine this situation: You’re a fan of Nissan’s all-electric 2011 Leaf and you’ve put your name down on the waiting list to get one just as soon as it starts to be delivered in your area.
> 
> But instead of getting an email telling you when you can visit your local dealer to finalize your order, you get an email offering you a discount on a new gasoline Nissan because, well, there aren't enough cars to go around and you might be in for a very long wait.
> 
> That’s exactly what happened to hundreds of Nissan Leaf fans in Canada after Nissan North America allocated just 40 leafs to Canada for the 2011 model year and a misery 600 for the 2012 model year.


(GreenCarReports)

So, _MF_, it appears *demand is not the issue - it's one of supply*.


----------



## da_jonesy

CubaMark said:


> *and then there's this...*
> 
> 
> 
> (GreenCarReports)
> 
> So, _MF_, it appears *demand is not the issue - it's one of supply*.


Agreed, each of those articles focuses on production... I did not see one mention of inventory or order backlogs. If the there was excess inventory (Volts on the lots not moving) then I would say the Volt was a flop.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> So, _MF_, it appears *demand is not the issue - it's one of supply*.


From October 3, 20011:

Chevy Volt stories - Jalopnik



> Despite more than doubling last months sales, we somehow don't think 723 units sold this past month is what one would consider massive sales momentum — especially given this summer's anemic numbers. *And that's not to say there aren't any Volts on dealer lots. Cars.com shows over 2,600 units available in a nation-wide search of new vehicle listings.*





da_jonesy said:


> If the there was excess inventory (Volts on the lots not moving) then I would say the Volt was a flop.


Say it.


----------



## CubaMark

Read 'er again, MF... you're jumping to conclusions about the state of the EV car industry based upon a single data-point (The Volt):



> Nissan sold 1,362 Leafs during the month of August and 1,031 during the month of September. Year to date, they've sold 7,199 — twice the number of Volts GM has shipped off dealer lots.





> So what does all this hand-wringing mean? Who knows. It could mean there's very little desire for such weird, new technology. Or it could just mean GM's still working the kinks out of the supply chain.


Nissan seems to have no problem cleaning out their inventory, and that's with a base MSRP some $4000 more than the Volt ($35, 200 vs $31, 645).


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Read 'er again, MF... you're jumping to conclusions about the state of the EV car industry based upon a single data-point (The Volt):
> 
> Nissan seems to have no problem cleaning out their inventory, and that's with a base MSRP some $4000 more than the Volt ($35, 200 vs $31, 645).


I'm just pointing out the excess inventory of the Volt. Supply chain problems for GM? I don't doubt that from Government Motors. But they're not selling them as fast as they're making them.


----------



## groovetube

it's rather funny to see people get so bent out of shape over "cherry picking data" , only to engage in it handily when it suits them.


----------



## Kosh

Macfury said:


> Except the peak power demand from homes is in the evening. .


 
Peak is usually during the day during summer, or EARLY evening and morning during winter. You can easily start charging your car after 7 or 8pm and it'll be ready for next morning. Ontario, typically only has 3-4 Winter months. 

The Chev Volt when i checked it only needed 7-8 hours on a 110V line to charge fully.


----------



## Kosh

CubaMark said:


> Read 'er again, MF... you're jumping to conclusions about the state of the EV car industry based upon a single data-point (The Volt):
> 
> 
> 
> Nissan seems to have no problem cleaning out their inventory, and that's with a base MSRP some $4000 more than the Volt ($35, 200 vs $31, 645).


 
Where are those prices from? A Canadian Volt base price is $41,000.

http://configurator.autodata.gm.ca/GMCanada/buildYourVehicle.html?lang=en

Or are you taking subsidies into account? Or are dealerships selling them below MSRP?


----------



## eMacMan

Kosh said:


> Peak is usually during the day during summer, or EARLY evening and morning during winter. You can easily start charging your car after 7 or 8pm and it'll be ready for next morning. Ontario, typically only has 3-4 Winter months.
> 
> The Chev Volt when i checked it only needed 7-8 hours on a 110V line to charge fully.


Numbers I found were closer to 10 hours. Electric range is rated at 25-50 miles. Since winter will sap battery via being cold and summer usually requires A/C, 25 Miles is probably maximum range under everyday use. Does have auxiliary generator on board. Gas mileage rated about 37MPG (US) after battery is depleted. About average for a small car. 

Works out to about 15 KWH/day. At current electric prices that's about $30/500 miles over 20 working days/month. Cars like the Yaris can do this on gasoline for about $50. At $250 savings per year that is about 40 years to recoup the $10,000+ difference in purchase price. Course if the battery pack has to be replaced even every 15 years those savings disappear completely.

Clearly prices have to come down quite a bit to justify the Volt as commuter car. Course if you look at a car as a status symbol, have a house with a phallic garage protruding into the front yard and are a tithing member of the Al Gore Church of Climatology then obviously $10,000 is a cheap price to pay for those sort of bragging rights.


----------



## CubaMark

Kosh said:


> Where are those prices from? A Canadian Volt base price is $41,000.
> 
> http://configurator.autodata.gm.ca/GMCanada/buildYourVehicle.html?lang=en
> 
> Or are you taking subsidies into account? Or are dealerships selling them below MSRP?


Kosh - US prices. I was more interested in the price gap between the two than Canadian -specific pricing.


----------



## Macfury

Kosh said:


> Peak is usually during the day during summer, or EARLY evening and morning during winter. You can easily start charging your car after 7 or 8pm and it'll be ready for next morning. Ontario, typically only has 3-4 Winter months.


I was referring to peak for homes, not overall peak.


----------



## Kosh

Macfury said:


> I was referring to peak for homes, not overall peak.


It's the overall peak that matters. Home peak doesn't matter unless it overpowers the infrastructure that supplies it, and it won't.


----------



## Macfury

Kosh said:


> It's the overall peak that matters. Home peak doesn't matter unless it overpowers the infrastructure that supplies it, and it won't.


Home peak matters depending on where transformers an substations are located.


----------



## eMacMan

Plugging in an electric car would be about the same power consumption as a small space heater set on high. Hardly likely to overwhelm the local infrastructure. 

OTH an entire city having them charge during peak consumption period could be overwhelmed.

The important thing to realize is that new power generation whatever the source will be a great deal more expensive than from older plants. Transmission lines to get it to the cities will have a similar impact. A major new transmission line in Alberta is causing rate increases up to 50% and that's with no new generating capacity.


----------



## Macfury

There is a current inventory of more than 400 Nisan Leafs on dealer lots--so much for the myth of back orders.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> There is a current inventory of more than 400 Nisan Leafs on dealer lots--so much for the myth of back orders.


Which conflicts with the story I cited above, to whit:



> That’s exactly what happened to hundreds of Nissan Leaf fans in Canada after Nissan North America allocated just 40 leafs to Canada for the 2011 model year and a misery 600 for the 2012 model year.


(GreenCarReports)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Which conflicts with the story I cited above, to whit


I have no axe to grind about electric cars--just the subsidies paid by governments to encourage people to buy them. In this case I simply went to the available inventory of North American cars, using Buffalo, NY as my starting point:

Buy a New Nissan Leaf, Search Listings, Compare Option Packages

These cars are on the lot, available and priced, so clearly there is no lack of inventory.


----------



## MacDoc

wrong thread - ignore


----------



## CubaMark

*More on GM's challenges with moving the Volt off the lot...*

*Does the Volt Need a Jolt?*



> ...some of Chevrolet’s own cars are tough competition. Many of the people who arrive at a Chevy showroom to check out the Volt wind up leaving with the much less expensive Cruze, which has a base price of only $16,720.
> 
> Still, GM apparently has confidence. It plans to produce 50,000 Volts next year, compared with 16,000 in 2011. And sales of the Volt, while low, have climbed sharply in the past two months.





> GM spokesman told the Chicago Tribune that the Volt is just now hitting showrooms across the country. Until now, the car had only been available in seven test markets, including Michigan, New York and California. And a wrinkle in California law made it difficult for Volt buyers to qualify for a $5,000 state tax rebate that the Leaf and some hybrids were eligible for.


(GreatEnergyChallengeBlog)


----------



## CubaMark

*All-Electric DeLorean DMC-12 Gullwing Coupe Coming For 2013?*





> 30 years after original production began, an electric-car company says it will pair with DeLorean Motor Company (DMC) to produce a limited run of all-electric DMC-12 cars by 2013, acccording to Jalopnik.
> 
> DMC and Epic EV debuted the planned model, dubbed the DMCEV, at the International DeLorean Owners Event in Houston this past weekend.
> 
> From the looks of things, DMC will provide support and original parts, combined with updated technology, while Epic EV brings the battery power.


(GreenCarReports)


----------



## CubaMark

*On the topic of Volt and Leaf sales figures...*

October Electric Car Sales: Chevy Volt Outsells Nissan Leaf



> New-car sales figures are out for October, and in the plug-in electric car arena, Volt supporters can let out a muffled cheer. Finally.
> The hometown favorite outsold the imported Nissan Leaf by almost 260 units, the first time in many months it's been able to best the battery electric hatchback from Japan.





> In October, GM sold 1,108 Volts--better than last month's 723, and ahead of the Leaf for the first time since early this year--squeaking the 2011 total past the 5,000 mark by only three cars.





> Rob Peterson, long-suffering Volt spokesperson, explained that because Volts are built in the center of the country and must be trucked to early-sales markets on the coast, there's a 15-day minimum lag time between production and sales.


(GreenCarReports)


----------



## Macfury

That's a pretty sad result, given the heavy subsidies on these vehicles all around.


----------



## Lawrence

GM might have to rethink their electric car now.

Chevy Volt fire explodes into federal investigation of electric car safety

Warning issued for electric car owners after Mooresville house fire - News Story - WSOC Charlotte


----------



## eMacMan

Saw a related article on one of the lamestream sites. 

Disappeared within less than an hour. Sure the media is not being manipulated. <Insert sarcasm icon here>


----------



## hayesk

Lawrence said:


> GM might have to rethink their electric car now.
> 
> Chevy Volt fire explodes into federal investigation of electric car safety
> 
> Warning issued for electric car owners after Mooresville house fire - News Story - WSOC Charlotte


Yeah, let's not solve the problem, let's just give up.

I've seen plenty of gas-powered vehicles catch on fire too. I guess the car makers should give up on gas powered cars now.


----------



## Lawrence

hayesk said:


> Yeah, let's not solve the problem, let's just give up.
> 
> I've seen plenty of gas-powered vehicles catch on fire too. I guess the car makers should give up on gas powered cars now.


This was after a crash test and the electric car was sitting for 3 days afterwards,
I think it poses a problem for lot owners that tow away smashed electric cars in the future.

I think a cartridge type tubular electric battery cell would be a far more efficient design,
Then you could pull into a charging station, Have them pull out your battery pack
and shove in a newly charged one in just a couple of minutes.

All this could be easily implemented by having the charged battery packs slide into a socket.
But then, This idea might be too easy for them to think of.

Multiple battery packs could be inserted using this idea.


----------



## eMacMan

Lawrence said:


> This was after a crash test and the electric car was sitting for 3 days afterwards,
> I think it poses a problem for lot owners that tow away smashed electric cars in the future.
> 
> I think a cartridge type tubular electric battery cell would be a far more efficient design,
> Then you could pull into a charging station, Have them pull out your battery pack
> and shove in a newly charged one in just a couple of minutes.
> 
> All this could be easily implemented by having the charged battery packs slide into a socket.
> But then, This idea might be too easy for them to think of.
> 
> Multiple battery packs could be inserted using this idea.


One of two different reports. The second fire occurred during the charging cycle and burned down a house valued at ~$750,000. Investigation still ongoing as to whether the fire originated in the charging unit or the car itself.


----------



## Lawrence

eMacMan said:


> One of two different reports. The second fire occurred during the charging cycle and burned down a house valued at ~$750,000. Investigation still ongoing as to whether the fire originated in the charging unit or the car itself.


It's possible that the second fire was caused by poor installation of the charging setup for his electric car.
The full investigation into the fire hopefully will let us know what really happened.


I was reading about another home charging unit on the TESLA electric car website.
Although, Not the same unit used in the reported fire,
It does say that an electrician should install the unit though.

_INSTALLATION INFORMATION
To ensure proper installation of the High Power Wall Connector, please share this Installation Guide with your electrician.
_


----------



## CubaMark

*Is Nissan's $9,900 Quick-Charger a Breakthrough for Electric Cars?*



> In January 2012, Nissan will begin taking orders for a low-cost 480-volt DC quick-charger that can recharge a Nissan LEAF from "empty" to 80-percent capacity in 30 minutes. A quick top-up of an electric vehicle's battery—say from half empty to nearly full—could happen in about five or six minutes. "That makes it the equivalent of stopping for gas," said Brendan Jones, Nissan's director of LEAF marketing and sales strategy.





> This could allow municipalities, small business (and even groups of EV owners), to sprinkle quick charging across popular EV markets.


(PluginCars.com)


----------



## Lawrence

That'd be a great idea, Take your car into an e station,
Charge it and have a coffee in the e cafe while you are waiting.

I could see that happening.
Might even become a hangout like Timmies.


----------



## eMacMan

Interesting review of what happens when a Nissan Leaf unexpectedly comes face to face with typical Canadian driving conditions.

Leaving the Leaf: When Anxiety Becomes Anger | Car Talk


----------



## SINC

Interesting read:

Timeline: The 100-Year History Of The Electric Car : NPR


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Interesting read:
> 
> Timeline: The 100-Year History Of The Electric Car : NPR


So in just under 100 years, range has gone from a max of 100 miles to a max of 100 miles. Now if they would just sell these babies at the 1910 price they would certainly get my attention.


----------



## CubaMark

*Is this the end of ZENN?*

Some odd trading activity last week led to the suspension of trading in ZENN shares, though - if I'm reading the info correctly - they will resume trading Monday morning.

Shares will open on Monday at $0.97....


----------



## Dr T

*A reliable electric car, 350 Km range? Yes!*



RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> Is it just me or are electric cars a bad idea; I mean plug in the wall fully electric cars .......


I would buy an electrically powered car right away if it met these specifications:

1. It must have a range of 350 km or more on a single charge.

2. It must be good quality, reliable, safe, such as the various Benzes I have driven for the past 34 years. The usual specifications thereof apply.


----------



## Lawrence

Dr T said:


> I would buy an electrically powered car right away if it met these specifications:
> 
> 1. It must have a range of 350 km or more on a single charge.
> 
> 2. It must be good quality, reliable, safe, such as the various Benzes I have driven for the past 34 years. The usual specifications thereof apply.


It won't happen

Most likely the replacement system will happen,
Pull a cell out and put another in at an "E Station" will happen.

We just don't have the technology to go that far on a single charge yet.

Unless we use a charged highway, That could happen, But I doubt it will happen in our century.
A charged highway would involve a strip that you'd follow that allows you to draw power from the roadway.

Slot cars in the 22'nd century powered by windmills?


----------



## CubaMark

*Nissan sells more than 20,000 Leafs in first year, high-fives commence on Tokyo Motor Show floor*



> You win this round, hippies! Only a few months after announcing that it sold 10,000 all-electric Leaf cars in international markets, Nissan stated at the Tokyo Motor Show today that the company has sold over 20,000 Leafs since the car went on sale in December of 2010. Of the 9,000 Leafs that have been sold to U.S. owners, over 60 percent went to homes in California...


(Engadget)


----------



## eMacMan

I think my big concern with electric is those Lithium batteries. 

Lithium + water=hydrogen=fire and Graphine+fire=bigger fire. Damage those battery casings on a wet day and there will be fires.

Other than that, one little side trip or some truly inclement weather and "Easily within range" becomes "Oops didn't quite make it". Guess that explains why 60% of sales are in California. Seriously instead of the Hybrid/Chevy Volt full sized engine that takes over when the batteries are not up to snuff, why not a small 500cc diesel generator that would at least maintain a sufficient charge to complete the trip? Keep it in range and no fuel used. Go over the limit and you would still be getting well over 100 MPG.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *Nissan sells more than 20,000 Leafs in first year, high-fives commence on Tokyo Motor Show floor*
> 
> Who lost the round? Taxpayers who heavily subsidized these cars so a few rich people could drive them around as status symbols. Likewise, many of these were sold to the government to prop up the failing models.


----------



## hayesk

Don't know who lost he round, but our children are the winners. The technology will only get better. It's amazing those who want to give up on a technology that is still in its infancy. Good thing everyone isn't so shortsighted.


----------



## eMacMan

115 years with no improvement in range can hardly be called the infancy of technology.


----------



## SINC

Some would say if electric vehicles were meant to be, there would be one by now.


----------



## groovetube

hayesk said:


> Don't know who lost he round, but our children are the winners. The technology will only get better. It's amazing those who want to give up on a technology that is still in its infancy. Good thing everyone isn't so shortsighted.


Agreed. For the first time the electric car is finally being worked on as a serious product. The gas powered car had about a hundred plus years of serious attention, and it's taken this long to perfect the combustion engine, and the same people who laugh at the progress are confused as to why after only barely a decade that the electric car hasn't perfected yet.

Technology and products such as this simply don't 'get there' in 10 years of focus and innovation.


----------



## eMacMan

eMacMan said:


> 115 years with no improvement in range can hardly be called the infancy of technology.





groovetube said:


> Agreed. For the first time the electric car is finally being worked on as a serious product. The gas powered car had about a hundred plus years of serious attention, and it's taken this long to perfect the combustion engine, and the same people who laugh at the progress are confused as to why after only barely a decade that the electric car hasn't perfected yet.
> 
> Technology and products such as this simply don't 'get there' in 10 years of focus and innovation.


Uh the electric car has also had over 100 years. Same range but they have exchanged those heavy, corrosive, fairly inexpensive lead acid batteries for lighter, more expensive, potential firebomb Lithium/Graphene batteries.


----------



## FeXL

Now, there's a surprise...



> Following on from the announcement that GM is looking at redesigning the Chevrolet Volt’s lithium-ion battery system in the wake of several highly publicized fires resulting from test crashes, comes further news that both the automaker and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration delayed disclosure of their original findings by months.


----------



## hayesk

SINC said:


> Some would say if electric vehicles were meant to be, there would be one by now.


By that logic, nothing was meant to be, because at one point in history, you could say that about anything that exists today.


----------



## hayesk

eMacMan said:


> Uh the electric car has also had over 100 years. Same range but they have exchanged those heavy, corrosive, fairly inexpensive lead acid batteries for lighter, more expensive, potential firebomb Lithium/Graphene batteries.


Whether it _had_ 100 years is irrelevant. The electric car may have existed 100 years ago, but it has not been actively researched and trialled anywhere near the degree that it has in the past few years.

And there's more to an electric car than its batteries.


----------



## FeXL

hayesk said:


> And there's more to an electric car than its batteries.


However, the batteries are the chiefest issue, whether longevity, safety, disposal, whatever.


----------



## hayesk

FeXL said:


> However, the batteries are the chiefest issue, whether longevity, safety, disposal, whatever.


Agreed, but my point still stands. Electric car research is in its infancy.


----------



## CubaMark

*Interesting idea... dockable vehicles!*





> The modular Dock+Go mobility system from the fertile mind of Rinspeed founder and CEO Frank M. Rinderknecht sees single axel packs that can be attached or detached from an electric vehicle depending on the demands of the day.
> 
> In addition to an "energy pack" that could extend the range of an electric vehicle by adding a combustion engine, range extender, or batteries powered by a fuel cell to the rear of a vehicle, Rinderknecht also envisions other packs to extend the capabilities of the host vehicle in other ways - a pack for pizza delivery cars featuring an integrated heated box to keep pizzas hot or a toolbox pack with customized spaces for a tradesperson's tools, for example.


(Gizmag)


----------



## Macfury

> or a toolbox pack with customized spaces for a tradesperson's tools, for example.


What? Two hammers and a screwdriver?


----------



## CubaMark

MF, you need to read, man. The image provided is one example - the CONCEPT is multiple kinds of docks incorporating additional battery power and differing functionalities... don't be such a negative ninny!


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> MF, you need to read, man. The image provided is one example - the CONCEPT is multiple kinds of docks incorporating additional battery power and differing functionalities... don't be such a negative ninny!


Yes. I'm laughing at the CONCEPT as described. Using this as a serious service vehicle would be laughable.


----------



## CubaMark

*Tsunami-Damaged Nissan Leafs Show Strength Of Battery Packs
*


> Nissan stopped production of the Leaf momentarily, but has now gained an unusual insight into the car's durability. The New York Times reports that Nissan recovered around two dozen of them from the wreckage and have been analyzing the results.
> 
> Despite the cars being tossed around and smashed, none caught fire and the batteries in all remained completely intact, still shielded in their airtight steel shells.
> 
> This strength raises interesting comparisons with the Chevrolet Volt, now the subject of an NHTSA test after two battery packs caught fire in safety tests.


(GreenCarReports)


----------



## Lawrence

...






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






^^^Pity the birds and bugs that run into the path of this car^^^


----------



## jef

Lawrence said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^Pity the birds and bugs that run into the path of this car^^^


Worst music ever....


----------



## CubaMark

jef said:


> Worst music ever....


Agreed. Funny as heck, though. Do these guys think they've come up with a perpetual energy machine or something? Ever heard of "drag coefficient"? :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Biggest laugh of the year!


----------



## Lawrence

...




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






^^^The Mag Lev Car, But we can only make it this big^^^


----------



## Lawrence

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






More wind powered cars:

Wind powered Nemisis


----------



## BigDL

*Hows about a Electric bike if not the Electric Car*

Hows about a Electric Motor Bike



CBCNews said:


> Uhlarik designs high performance racing motorcycles with a difference. His bikes run entirely on batteries, so they have no emissions.
> 
> "It's so quiet. That's the thing. You're used to riding even a modest motorcycle, it makes a certain amount of noise," he said Tuesday.
> 
> The need for batteries has made previous electric motorcycle designs too heavy to be good at racing, Uhlarik said.
> 
> ...Called the Amarok P1, the bike can reach speeds of up to 220 km/hr. It takes about 90 minutes to charge the bicycle's battery.


----------



## CubaMark

*Electric Car Sales For 2011: Modest First-Year Numbers Hardly A Surprise*



> Nissan sold 954 Leafs, for a 2011 total of 9,674, and Chevy shifted 1,529 Volts, bring its yearly deliveries to 7,671. (There were also 326 Volts and 18 28 Leafs sold in December 2010.)
> 
> One little piece of context: Both the Leaf and the Volt sold more in 2011, their first year in the market, than did the 2000 Toyota Prius--which sold 5,562--or the very first hybrid in the market, the Honda Insight, which sold 3,788.


(Green Car Reports)


----------



## SINC

Air battery to let electric cars outlast gas guzzlers - tech - 06 January 2012 - New Scientist


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Air battery to let electric cars outlast gas guzzlers - tech - 06 January 2012 - New Scientist


Nice to see battery technology moving forward... the whole ultracapacitor field seems to be just smoke and mirrors (EEEStor, anyone?). However, the last sentence of that article gives me pause...



> _There are other practical issues to address, such as enabling such batteries to cope with moist air. "Lithium in water spontaneously catches fire," he points out._


----------



## RobotGuy

*"Powering the Dream" by Alexis Madrigal*

Nice to see this post is getting a lot of attention. I recommend subject book for anyone interested in a bit of history on the (North) American dream of alternative energy and how events have shaped our current energy situation vis-a-vis cars and homes.


----------



## CubaMark

Interesting... what is GM doing wrong that Nissan isn't?

*GM Dealers Say No To More Chevy Volts*



> With NHTSA's closure of the investigation into the Chevy Volt, General Motors is now trying to rebuild the plug-in hybrid's image. But a new stumbling block has appeared on the road to higher sales — dealers turning down Volts from GM.
> 
> General Motors sold only 7,671 Volts in the United States in 2011, well short of its 10,000-unit target for the first year. GM spokespeople have attributed weakness in demand to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's investigation into the risk of fires in the car's battery pack. But I'm not entirely certain that can all be blamed on that considering the weakness in sales existed well ahead of the NHTSA investigation.
> 
> Now we're hearing reports of dealers who don't want to buy the cars from GM because customers just aren't materializing for the Volt.


(Jalopnik)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Interesting... what is GM doing wrong that Nissan isn't?


They're not selling them! Only an idiot would put more stock on the scarce lot space they have, when they already have a Volt backlog.

Also, there's still a lot of bad feelings about government financing of General Motors in the U.S. The Volt is perceived as a special-order Obamamobile by a large percentage of the population.


----------



## CubaMark

*Electric cars can handle Canadian winter*



> New data obtained by CBC News suggests the range of electric cars are significantly impaired by extreme cold, but not enough to affect the commuting habits of most Canadians.
> 
> Winnipegger Ross Redman tracked the winter performance of his Mitsubishi i-MiEV.





> he came up with the car's "effective range," meaning how far it could go on a single charge, and compared that to daily temperatures this winter.
> 
> What he found was the car's range was often around 100 kilometres — the maximum distance he could travel on a single charge.
> 
> On one of the coldest days of the year in mid-January, when the mercury hit –25 C, the range dropped to just 76 kilometres. The car's maximum range in ideal, warmer conditions is 155 kilometres.
> 
> Mitsubishi says the finding are in line with what it expects.


(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark

Jeez, what is going on with Volt sales?

*GM To Suspend Production Of Chevrolet Volt*



> General Motors Co. is suspending production of its Chevrolet Volt electric car for five weeks amid disappointing sales.
> 
> A GM spokesman said Friday that the company will shut down production of the Volt from March 19 until April 23, idling 1,300 workers at the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant.
> 
> The Volt was rolled out with great fanfare in late 2010 but has since hit bumps in the road. Sales have fallen short of expectations, and its reputation was bruised by an investigation into a possible fire risk.





> the perception of a safety risk has hurt sales.
> 
> "It is taking GM more time than they thought to reverse that sentiment," Baum said. The good news, he said, is that buyers of electric and hybrid cars are probably willing to listen to GM's side in the fire story.


(HuffingtonPost)


----------



## jef

CubaMark said:


> Jeez, what is going on with Volt sales?


It's my fault - I just bought another Prius (5th in the family since 2001)


----------



## eMacMan

Just caught a review of the Volt on Motoring. 

Besides being overpriced this car has one other fatal flaw. Touch Screen accessory controls. Very Apple like, very 21st Century, and very stupid. You have to take your eyes off the road to operate heater, A/C and radio... For me that would automatically disqualify this one as a possible purchase no matter what the price was.


----------



## jef

eMacMan said:


> Just caught a review of the Volt on Motoring.
> 
> Besides being overpriced this car has one other fatal flaw. Touch Screen accessory controls. Very Apple like, very 21st Century, and very stupid. You have to take your eyes off the road to operate heater, A/C and radio... For me that would automatically disqualify this one as a possible purchase no matter what the price was.


The Volt, like the Prius, has climate control. You don't need to fiddle with the controls. The A/C is set to control cabin temp and the computer takes over. No need to interrupt driving. 

Audio controls are on the steering wheel so once set, volume and stations are adjusted without having to look at the screen.

I set my parent's Prius temp at 21C and set their radio stations when it was new in 2005 and they have never touched it since - even in winter. It is very Mac-like - everything just works.


----------



## SINC

jef said:


> Audio controls are on the steering wheel so once set, volume and stations are adjusted without having to look at the screen.


I see. So instead of taking your eyes off the road to fiddle with the touch screen, you take your eyes off the road to watch the centre of the steering wheel to do the same thing?

Brilliant!


----------



## jef

SINC said:


> I see. So instead of taking your eyes off the road to fiddle with the touch screen, you take your eyes off the road to watch the centre of the steering wheel to do the same thing?
> 
> Brilliant!


No - Steering wheel controls are done by feel - you don't need to look - it's easy.


----------



## Dr.G.

jef said:


> No - Steering wheel controls are done by feel - you don't need to look - it's easy.


This is how it is on our Toyota Rav4. I personally set all the controls before putting the car into Drive, but my wife is able to fiddle with the buttons on the steering wheel and not have her eyes leave the road.


----------



## CubaMark

> An electric sportscar with a five-speed manual gearbox has been designed by Morgan with the support of British technology specialists Zytek and Radshape. Shown as a concept to test market reaction, the radical new roadster could enter production if there is sufficient demand.
> 
> “We wanted to see how much fun you can have in an electric sportscar, so we have built one to help us find out,” explained Morgan operations director Steve Morris. “The Plus E combines Morgan’s traditional look with high-technology construction and a powertrain that delivers substantial torque instantly at any speed. With the manual gearbox to increase both touring range and driver involvement, it will be a fantastic car to drive.”
> 
> The Plus E is based on a tailored version of Morgan’s lightweight aluminium platform chassis clothed in the revised ‘traditional’ body from the new BMW V8-powered Plus 8, also launched at Geneva. Power is delivered by a new derivative of Zytek’s 70kW (94bhp) 300Nm electric engine, which is already proven with US vehicle manufacturers.


(Morgan Motor Company)


----------



## SINC

Sweet! Thanks for the link.


----------



## eMacMan

Yep, a Morgan of almost any era or type, is one car I wish I could afford.


----------



## CubaMark

*...and the Volt returns....*

*After Record Sales, Chevy Volt Production To Resume A Week Early
*


> Buoyed by record monthly sales of its Chevy Volt hybrid electric plug-in car in March, General Motors will resume production of the Volt at the Detroit Hamtramck plant one week early, the United Auto Workers told Talking Points Memo on Tuesday night.
> 
> “They’re adding a week of production back in,” said Don LaForest,


(GreenCarReports)


----------



## Macfury

Record sales are still pitiful, with many of those sales sold to the federal government, under direct order from Obama Motors.


----------



## okcomputer

SINC said:


> I see. So instead of taking your eyes off the road to fiddle with the touch screen, you take your eyes off the road to watch the centre of the steering wheel to do the same thing?
> 
> Brilliant!


Ummm. Many, many vehicles have steering wheel-mounted audio and BT controls. In fact, every car I test drove last year while shopping had them. 

When driving my Santa Fe, I don't have to move my hands from driving position - the controls are right there by my thumbs. I always use them to change volume, go to the next track, and change radio stations. 

This is much safer than removing your hands from the wheel and reaching for something mounted in the center.


----------



## CubaMark

*Still holding that ZENN stock, Dr. G?*

*Zenn raises $2-million, without its electric car*



> Just a few years ago, Zenn Motor Company, Canada’s zero-emission car maker, had tons of buzz. Environmentalism was all the rage, consumers had high discretionary incomes and the company had enough money to splurge on TV commercials.
> 
> In the aftermath of the financial crisis, there’s barely been a peep about Zenn (ZNN-X1.600.2518.52%). Not only is the company rarely talked about, its stock has plummeted from around $6 per share to less than 70 cents. So you can imagine my surprise when Zenn announced this week that it has raised $2-million in a new private placement.





> Clearly, though, some investors still see promise.
> 
> And at least for now, they’re the ones laughing. The new private placement was completed at 85 cents per unit. The stock is now at $1.60.


(Globe & Mail)


----------



## Dr.G.

Just read this article about 10 minutes ago, CM. Yes, I still have my original 500 shares. I bought them back in the Fall of 2006 for about 40-45 cents a share. Bought and sold as it ran up to $6 so I am ahead of the game even now. They no longer produce electric cars but are now strictly focused upon their battery technology. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

Dr.G. said:


> They no longer produce electric cars but are now strictly focused upon their battery technology.


I believe you mean to say their "supercapacitor" technology - that being EESTOR's so-far-vapourware. They're two years (or more?) behind in their declared plan to start producing drivetrains... are they communicating *anything* to their shareholders?


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> I believe you mean to say their "supercapacitor" technology - that being EESTOR's so-far-vapourware. They're two years (or more?) behind in their declared plan to start producing drivetrains... are they communicating *anything* to their shareholders?


Well, they are at about a $1.45 right now, so personally, I have not lost money. If this works, great for all concerned ............ if not, then I am out about $200. We shall see.


----------



## CubaMark

*Meanwhile.... south of the border...*

*Electric car advance powers A123 shares*



> Shares of A123 Systems soared Tuesday after the embattled electronic-car battery maker said that it had developed new lithium ion technology capable of operating in extreme heat or cold.





> The news comes just less than two weeks after A123 warned that it may not be able to stay in business unless it's able to secure more financing.


(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark

*100 Days With A Better Place Electric Car: Likes & Dislikes*












> It's been a little more than 100 days since I drove away in my first electric car, a Renault Fluence ZE, as one of the first 100 private paying customers of the Better Place company in Israel.
> 
> Here's the rundown of how I've used the car, including my likes and dislikes.
> 
> In 113 days, I've covered 3,700 electric miles, and I'm averaging 30 miles a day. I've pre-paid Better Place for 12,400 miles per year, which works out to 34 miles a day.





> I've been called three times by Better Place when my battery level dropped below 12 percent, to check if I was going to be OK. Twice I was a few miles from home, and the other time I had just pulled in to switch the battery.
> 
> There is no extra cost to me for unlimited switching: I don't pay any more whether I charge at home or in a public parking space, or by switching batteries.
> 
> All of htis works out to roughly 260 miles between battery switches; I used to fill up my gasoline car more often than that!
> 
> Stopping, pumping, and paying for gasoline took longer than the switching process does, so I've saved a little time overall.





> Ignoring the value of items like tow-truck coverage and OnStar-like tracking included in the Better Place subscription, I've saved at least $300 on fuel compared to my previous Honda Civic.


(Read more at Green Car Reports)


----------



## SINC

Interesting American design, with a fair price and just gorgeous:

2013 Motor Trend Car of the Year: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend


----------



## Joker Eh

SINC said:


> Interesting American design, with a fair price and just gorgeous:
> 
> 2013 Motor Trend Car of the Year: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend


Except for the stupid touch screen for controls. What is that 10-12"?. Just stupid. You cannot safely operate a car while trying to use a touch screen. Just a stupid design. There is no tactile feel and it wastes energy which could be saved using manual controls.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Interesting American design, with a fair price and just gorgeous:
> 
> 2013 Motor Trend Car of the Year: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend





Joker Eh said:


> Except for the stupid touch screen for controls. What is that 10-12"?. Just stupid. You cannot safely operate a car while trying to use a touch screen. Just a stupid design. There is no tactile feel and it wastes energy which could be saved using manual controls.


Can't recall the year or the model. Early seventies I think, that Motor Trend declared the Renault Super Lemon car of the year. 

I agree completely with the lunacy of touch screen controls, every bit as distracting as trying to text and drive.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Still holding that ZENN stock, Dr. G?*
> 
> *Zenn raises $2-million, without its electric car*
> 
> 
> 
> (Globe & Mail)


Yes, still have my original 500 shares.


----------



## CubaMark

*The Earliest Electric Vehicle Adopters: Women in Corsets*










The pluses and minuses of electric vehicles worked together to make the perfect car for the ladies, who were deemed by the conventional wisdom of the day to be weak, fearful, and easily upset. Not only would women not have to deal with the brimstone of the gasoline engine, but they couldn’t go very far—another bonus! The limitations of the electric car made it appropriate transportation for the curtailed life of the pre-flapper woman. She didn’t even have to drive herself to the polls to vote yet.

That was enough for many lady drivers of the day. “My electric is a friend of which I stand in constant need for little morning spins in the park, for calling and shopping, for matinee, and for dinner and theater, and it never fails me,” one woman told the New York Times in 1915. The article noted that there were “seventy-three women in Manhattan alone who own and run electric automobiles,” and then it listed most of their names. (PDF link - NYTimes article)​
(MentalFloss)


----------



## bryanc

SINC said:


> Interesting American design, with a fair price and just gorgeous:
> 
> 2013 Motor Trend Car of the Year: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend


Have to agree about the looks; that is a beautiful machine (reminds me a bit of an Aston-Martin). Still out of my price range, and I can't help wonder how electric technology will fair during Canadian winters. But I'm hoping that my next car can be an electric.


----------



## eMacMan

bryanc said:


> Have to agree about the looks; that is a beautiful machine (reminds me a bit of an Aston-Martin). Still out of my price range, and I can't help wonder how electric technology will fair during Canadian winters. But I'm hoping that my next car can be an electric.


Did a quick search on previous winners. MTs Car of the Year winners would indicate there must have been some truly awful years.

Some Previous winners:
*1960 Chevy Corvair*
1961 Pontiac Tempest
*1963 AMC Rambler*
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado
1970 Ford Torino
*1971 Chevy Vega
1972 Citoen SM
1976 Dodge Aspen?Plymouth Volare
1981 Chrysler K cars 
1983 AMC Renault Alliance*
1986-2002 Big Three, no exceptions
1996 Dodge Caravan
*2011 Chevy Volt*


----------



## bryanc

eMacMan said:


> 1976 Dodge Aspen?


Hey, I had one of those. The engine was pretty impressive, even if the faux wood-paneling on the sides was not


----------



## CubaMark

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## CubaMark

_Kinda hard to make electric cars viable when the existing fossil fuel infrastructure and vested interests gets in the way..._

*North Carolina Wants To Make It Illegal For Tesla To E-Mail Customers*



> How far will state car-dealer associations go to prevent Tesla Motors from opening its electric-car showrooms and selling cars over the Internet?
> 
> A long, long way.
> 
> In North Carolina, a new law passed by the state Senate would apparently make it illegal for Tesla to e-mail its customers.
> 
> In other words, if you're a North Carolina resident who has a question about Tesla, the new law may prohibit Tesla Motors [NSDQ:TSLA] from responding to your question via e-mail.
> 
> The specific wording of the law bars automakers from "using a computer or other communications facilities, hardware, or equipment" to sell or lease a car to anyone in North Carolina.


(GreenCarReports)


----------



## CubaMark

_What was it Mitt Romney said about Tesla again?_

*Tesla Repays $465-Million DoE Loan, Chrysler Bites Back At Claim*





> Yesterday, Tesla paid off the balance of its U.S. government loan, using proceeds from its $1 billion-plus offering of stock and warrants last week, as CEO Elon Musk had said Monday it would in a tweet.
> 
> The amount settled yesterday was $451.8 million, following installments paid by Tesla last year and in the first quarter of this year.





> The DoE issued a grateful press release as well, saying Tesla's repayment highlights the "strength" of its loan portfolio and noting that losses to its total $34 billion portfolio of loans across many programs represent only about 2 percent to date.





> Tesla took it a step further, saying in its release, " Following this payment, Tesla will be the only American car company to have fully repaid the government."


(GreenCarReports)


----------



## CubaMark

*And the disinformation campaign continues.... think she's receiving a big oil paycheque under the table? Lying through her teeth... even the show host couldn't believe she said it.*

*Fox Reports False Telsa Battery Range Problems*



> On a recent edition of Varney & Company, Fox Business reporter Elizabeth MacDonald claimed that Tesla Motors and Space X founder Elon Musk “has got to fix the Tesla (Model S) battery–which conks out after 16 miles or about a half-hour of usage.”
> 
> Fox Business reporter Elizabeth MacDonald reports that Tesla battery conks out after 16 miles or about a half-hour.
> 
> Her statement is highly misleading as Tesla’s Model S is in fact the leader in EV Battery range, which can exceed 300 miles, which is a far cry from her 16 mile figure.
> 
> MacDonald also said that Elon Musk “has got to fix the Tesla batteries, which more than implies that there is a problem with the Tesla Model S batteries when no issues exist.


(ev.com)


----------



## bryanc

Indeed. The Tesla S has already achieved more than any other electric car, and Tesla is rapidly becoming the success story of the automotive industry (despite the big 3 wielding all their not-insignificant political power against them).

As much as I might fantasize about buying a Tesla S, I'm never likely to be in the market for a big sedan. The Model X, on the other hand, looks like something I might seriously consider.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> Indeed. The Tesla S has already achieved more than any other electric car, and Tesla is rapidly becoming the success story of the automotive industry (despite the big 3 wielding all their not-insignificant political power against them).


Unfortunately, being the most successful electric car company has so far not been the result of selling a lot of cars.


----------



## bryanc

They are selling them as fast as they can make them. It would certainly seem to be there game to loose at this point.


----------



## CubaMark

*One wonders how Tesla manages to be as successful as it is, considering "the market" mechanism is under threat from gas-guzzler dealers who don't want the competition...*

*Dealers Want To Make It Illegal To Register A Tesla In New York*



> Tesla doesn't sell its cars through dealership franchises. It uses its own company run stores, like Apple. Dealerships don't like this. And now New York State auto dealers are backing a bill that would make it illegal to register the cars in the Empire State.P
> 
> As Green Car Reports reports, two bills (A07844 and S05725) in the assembly are being backed by the state auto dealers. The bills require that cars can only be sold and registered when sold by a third party, which would be a dealer or a private seller. A car company cannot sell its own cars directly.












(Jalopnik)


----------



## CubaMark

And while we're at it....

Much is being made of the amount of time needed to recharge electric cars - this being the "straw that broke the camel's back" for critics of EVs. Tesla is addressing that prejudice with a network of superfast charging stations (partial charge) and plans for a full battery swap at selected stations. But - those still take time, right?

Would you be surprised to learn that a Tesla battery swap - TWO, in fact - can be done in the same time it takes to fill up a car's gas tank?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY


----------



## John Clay

CubaMark said:


> And while we're at it....
> 
> Much is being made of the amount of time needed to recharge electric cars - this being the "straw that broke the camel's back" for critics of EVs. Tesla is addressing that prejudice with a network of superfast charging stations (partial charge) and plans for a full battery swap at selected stations. But - those still take time, right?
> 
> Would you be surprised to learn that a Tesla battery swap - TWO, in fact - can be done in the same time it takes to fill up a car's gas tank?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY


Not to diminish how cool it is you can swap batteries in that time, it doesn't take me anywhere near as long as it took them to fill up the Audi as it takes to fill up my Forester and drive away.


----------



## CubaMark

Right, but the point is, if a battery-swap option is available, it is at least on par with the time it takes to fill up a tank of gas. There is no *in*convenience factor.


----------



## Rps

I've been in the market for a reasonable electric for some time. My first choice is the Chevy Volt...but I feel it is about $8,000 over priced. So, I'm on the list to take out a Smart Electric Drive. As for charging time, my home runs 220 and at 12amps I can charge the thing in less than 10 hours, 4 if you buy a boost charger. Most of my driving is in the city so an electric makes sense for me. Out of town is another matter, that's why I've been looking at the Volt. Been in two of them and can't seem to push the button on it.....I know that as soon as I buy it they will drop the price about $8,000 to clear out the inventory...so I'm waiting. But I truly feel that in a city, electric is the way to go..... What we should be doing is fuel cell, we've been running them for years and it has the same distribution network as gas....best of both worlds in the current technology is a Volt which is powered by battery and fuel cell...... But electric cars are coming and I think that's a good thing.


----------



## bryanc

I've seen some stuff about how they tested the Tesla Model S in Sweden in the winter, but I'm still dubious about how well electric cars will function during Canadian winters. Apart from that, I'm pretty much convinced. Hopefully, over the next few years there will be enough early adopters in Canada that we'll have some real-life data to address this. And hopefully, during the next few years I'll become sufficiently wealthy to be able to do more than fantasize about buying one


----------



## iMouse

So, to sum up the last two posts, drive one in the city only and always park it in a heated space. 

And get a good car-coat.


----------



## CubaMark

_Rps, Here's an article about a family in California that just took delivery of the first Chevy Spark EV. If you're open to considering something that is a bit smaller than the Volt, and willing to wait until it hits Canada... It's apparently going to be sold first for fleet sales by late Summer (2013):_

*Chevy's Spark EV sizzles*



> General Motors has announced that the U.S. pricing of its Chevrolet Spark EV will be $27,495 before federal tax credits. The automaker also says American dealers will be able to offer Spark EV on a monthly lease of $199.
> 
> No pricing information has been released by GM Canada. That will come closer to launch later in summer 2013, when the Spark EV initially will be available for fleet sales only in this country. The all-electric subcompact qualifies for provincial government rebates in Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia.












(Autonet.ca)


----------



## Rps

Cubamark I did see that. Living in Windsor we see the U.S. car ads and the Volt is selling around $10,000 cheaper there. As for the Spark I did see one and would probably look at it, however I'm not interested in owning 2 vehicles, so the Volt makes more sense as it has quite a good range. That said, if the Spark comes in around the Smart Electric price ( $26,000 ) I might jump at the chance to get one, with the Ontario grant you would only pay about $18,000 and run the thing without using gas, which today is $1.24 per litre here. My 300C costs me around $75 a fill and I am filling it up about 1 1/2 times per week....so consderable savings. What I hear is that many 2012 Volts are getting a $4,000 price reduction...but even with this it is still very very expensive.


----------



## CubaMark

*EVA electric taxi can travel 200 km on a 15-minute charge*



_Given how many miles taxis put in per day, the concept of electric taxis is certainly appealing. That said, one problem is the amount of time that their batteries can take to recharge – most cabbies won't want to shorten their work day or do a split shift, in order to juice up their cars. With the EVA taxi, however, they wouldn't have to. The prototype vehicle can reportedly get enough of a charge in 15 minutes to travel 200 km (124 mi).

EVA was created via the TUM Create project, a collaboration between Germany's Technische Universität München and Singapore's Nanyang Technological University. The 200-km figure is based on typical Singapore taxi-driving patterns, *with the air conditioning turned on*._​
(Gizmag)


----------



## Macfury

For taxis, a battery swap would make much more sense than even a 15-minute charge.


----------



## CubaMark

*Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt Range Loss In Winter: New Data From Canada*

_The firm compiled data from more than 7,000 Nissan Leaf trips to determine how temperature affected the cars' real-world range.

And the data includes drivers using cabin heat in the winter, and air conditioning in the summer--as they tend to do in actual use.

As FleetCarma notes, the "Goldilocks zone" (just right) for maximum range seems to be 60 to 75 degrees F (15 to 24 degrees C).

Lithium-ion battery chemistries lose performance at the same temperature extremes where driver preferences to stay around 70 degrees come into play.

Fast degradation of the air-cooled Nissan Leaf battery pack in a small number of extremely high-temperature locations, especially Phoenix, Arizona, is leading the world's highest-volume electric-car company toward deploying a more heat-tolerant battery chemistry as early as April 2014._​
(GreenCarReports)


----------



## eMacMan

With the Chevy Volt, dropping the temp to 0°C dropped the range by around 35%. Entirely expected by anyone who has seen there camera battery life drop down to almost nothing when it gets cold.


----------



## jef

eMacMan said:


> With the Chevy Volt, dropping the temp to 0°C dropped the range by around 35%. Entirely expected by anyone who has seen there camera battery life drop down to almost nothing when it gets cold.


Normal cars also get much worse gas mileage in winter. It takes a lot more fuel to warm and engine and keep it running in cold temps.

My 2005 Prius averages 4.5 litres/100kms in warm temps and 5.2 litres/100kms in the cold months. Still beats the hell out of anything close to it's size and comfort but cold weather does mean higher costs to drive - in any car.


----------



## eMacMan

jef said:


> Normal cars also get much worse gas mileage in winter. It takes a lot more fuel to warm and engine and keep it running in cold temps.
> 
> My 2005 Prius averages 4.5 litres/100kms in warm temps and 5.2 litres/100kms in the cold months. Still beats the hell out of anything close to it's size and comfort but cold weather does mean higher costs to drive - in any car.


Much less critical in cars that do not have to be recharged should the range prove shorter than the trip. Eg the Nissan Leaf.


----------



## CubaMark

*Can a Tesla electric car handle the harsh winter of Norway?*

_Interested in electric cars but worried because you live somewhere that gets very cold..? Here's something that might reassure you. It so happens that the Tesla Model S is very popular in Norway, with some of the highest EV sales per capita in the world. The whole country basically acts as a large-scale winter testing area, and to show how the car was doing Tesla went to film one of its customers, Arne Jakobsen, a hydro worker who needs to drive a lot on difficult snowy roads, along the mountains and fjords of Norway._

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TelUR5Bg9zE

(TreeHugger)


----------



## CubaMark

*For all those naysayers on the appeal of Electric vehicles... would this make any difference in your decision to support the trend?*

*The Gigafactory Could Make Teslas The Most American Cars*





> Yes, Tesla is an American car company. Even though the Model S comes out of a factory in California, though, it doesn't have as many domestic parts as some Fords or even Toyotas. That's going to change soon.





> Quartz reports that once the Gigafactory starts supplying batteries to all of Tesla's cars made in California, the American parts content index on those vehicles could reach 90 percent. That's better than the current leader, the Ford F-150, and even the Toyota Camry – both of which have routinely had some of the highest rates of American-sourced parts among new vehicles.





> American cars usually top out around 70 percent domestic parts content, it's interesting that analysts estimate Tesla could reach 90 percent once the Gigafactory is up and running.


(Jalopnik)


----------



## Joker Eh

Stupid that some states have banned the sale of Tesla cars because Tesla wants to sell the cars themselves.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> *For all those naysayers on the appeal of Electric vehicles... would this make any difference in your decision to support the trend?*


You just don't get it, do you?

The car can be made on Mars with parts from Alpha Centauri for all I care. Let's see how electric cars do in a true free market.

If electric cars were making it on their own in an even market without government subsidies, selling of government issued offset credits, or any other form of electric car manufacturing social assistance that ultimately comes out of the taxpayers wallet, I wouldn't have nearly the problem with them that I do. That's most of my issue with electric cars, say, a solid 70%. The balance of my issue is the two facts that first, electric cars are, in fact, coal powered (and thus save nothing as far as the environment is concerned) and contribute further to electrical demand. Second, their manufacture and maintenance causes more harm to the environment than their petroleum powered cousins. Once again, the Green solution is worse than the problem it was designed to replace.

And, in case you're wondering about subsidizing gasoline car manufacturers, I would have dropped Government Motors like third grade French...


----------



## heavyall

If the car is priced the same as comparable fossil fuel vehicles (WITHOUT a government subsidy), can go the same distance per charge as we now can on a tank (even in the winter), can recharge as quickly as it takes to refuel, and can be recharged in as many places as you can refuel, then people will buy them. Until then, it's not ready for prime time.


----------



## CubaMark

What it's like to own a Tesla Model S - A cartoonist's review of his magical space car - The Oatmeal









* * *​









(See the full cartoon at TheOatmeal and be sure to continue on to Part II)


----------



## IllusionX

heavyall said:


> If the car is priced the same as comparable fossil fuel vehicles (WITHOUT a government subsidy), can go the same distance per charge as we now can on a tank (even in the winter), can recharge as quickly as it takes to refuel, and can be recharged in as many places as you can refuel, then people will buy them. Until then, it's not ready for prime time.


It takes someone to stat using them, before they are adopted. Until it is mainstream, there will always be drawbacks of using such technology.

But i have yet to see a fuel cell car. The idea is so much better than using batteries.. Fill it up with water.. consume hydrogen and exhaust water.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> What it's like to own a Tesla Model S - A cartoonist's review of his magical space car - The Oatmeal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * * *​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (See the full cartoon at TheOatmeal and be sure to continue on to Part II)


Absolutely impossible in Alberta as half of the electric bill is gouge fees.


----------



## CubaMark

Holy crap. In part 2 of The Oatmeal's Tesla cartoon (part 1 was a review of the Tesla Model S), artist and Tesla fanatic Matthew Inman made a request to Tesla founder Elon Musk to fund the development of the Nicola Tesla museum to the tune of about $8-million.

Today, on Twitter, Musk apparently said yes. :yikes:

A few more details here: The Oatmeal, Elon Musk, and Nikola Tesla – The Rise of Wardenclyffe | Science Traveler


----------



## Macfury

At least something good came of it. Reading that cartoon males me love my gasoline powered car even more.


----------



## Sonal

heavyall said:


> If the car is priced the same as comparable fossil fuel vehicles (WITHOUT a government subsidy), can go the same distance per charge as we now can on a tank (even in the winter), can recharge as quickly as it takes to refuel, and can be recharged in as many places as you can refuel, then people will buy them. Until then, it's not ready for prime time.


Depends on an individual's needs, of course. I drive short distances during the day, and as such, plugging in at home at night to recharge is no hardship. In that sense, the gas-powered car is overkill, as I don't actually need the ability to refuel quickly anywhere.

Price, without subsidy, is pretty close to what I would be willing to pay for a car, and if I account for the amortized gas costs (even as small as mine are) and even accounting for increased home electricity costs, it's not much of a premium. And there's the convenience factor of not having to stop for gas.

The main barrier for me is that I tend to own cars for a long time (10+ years) and I don't know what the life of the battery is.... and given the high replacement costs, that's an issue. If I were more of a 3-5 year car lease person, it would likely make more sense.


----------



## FeXL

Motor Mouth: ‘Green’ cars still a giant waste of money-The numbers don't lie: spending green to get green isn't worth the cost



> It seems that while the corporations like the write-offs the tax exemptions bring, the people actually diving these plug-in write-offs aren’t bothering to, well, plug them in, instead often driving them as if they were gasoline powered only (where the Ampera/Volt is particularly inefficient). Indeed, Arval director Dick Bakker told the broadcaster, “Most people don’t use the car properly. If someone with an Ampera or Prius plug-in hybrid is using the same amount of petrol as you in your old (Renault) Clio (subcompact), then we have made few advances over the past few years.”
> 
> So here’s another take on Holland’s green car revolution. *The Dutch government offered massive tax incentives to promote “green” cars. Corporations welcomed the huge write-offs. The resultant emissions reduction in no way warranted the vast amounts of public monies spent. It’s funny how we haven’t seen that headline.*


M'bold.


----------



## CubaMark

*Electric car with massive range in demo by Phinergy, Alcoa*










Imagine making the 19-hour, 1,800-kilometre drive from Toronto to Halifax in an electric car without having to stop for a recharge.

That's theoretically possible with a special kind of battery being demonstrated this week in Montreal by Israel-based Phinergy and Alcoa Canada. 

The partners have refurbished an "ordinary car" to use a special "aluminum-air" battery.

The battery can extend the range of an electric car by 1,600 kilometres when used in conjunction with the vehicle's regular lithium-ion battery.

* * * *​
...the new battery technology can store enough energy to take a car 3,000 kilometres with 100 kilograms of aluminum-air batteries. For comparison, the Tesla Model S battery is estimated to be more than 500 kilograms.

* * * *​
...car owners need to refill the aluminum air battery with tap water every month or two to feed the chemical reaction. 

The spent batteries would be replaced with charged batteries during a "quick operation" at a local service station. 

Because the car would still rely on its regular rechargable lithium-ion battery most of the time and would switch to the aluminum-air battery as a backup only if the lithium-ion battery ran out, and because most car trips are 50 kilometres or less, Alcoa estimates the aluminum-air batteries would only need to be changed about once a year.










(CBC)


----------



## rondini

And the cost of these wondrous aluminum-air batteries is..........?


----------



## FeXL

Hey, cool!

What happens to the range when you turn on the heater or A/C...


----------



## CubaMark

I don't know, FeXL... rondini is really giving you a run for the curmudgeon title this year....


----------



## Macfury

rondini said:


> And the cost of these wondrous aluminum-air batteries is..........?


Never mind the up front cost. When the government begins to demand a replacement for its gas taxes, this will fall squarely on the batteries.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Never mind the up front cost. When the government begins to demand a replacement for its gas taxes, this will fall squarely on the batteries.


More likely a road tax. Black GPS box in every car recording/transmitting every movement with tax bill presented monthly.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> I don't know, FeXL... rondini is really giving you a run for the curmudgeon title this year....


Why does asking a salient question make one a curmudgeon? A little too close to the Mark, perhaps?

<snort>


----------



## heavyall

FeXL said:


> Why does asking a salient question make one a curmudgeon? A little too close to the Mark, perhaps?
> 
> <snort>


I agree. The problem with most green initiatives is that people are not asking the important questions for fear of getting an answer they don't like. It's not even remotely curmudgeonly to want to know if a given claim reflects real world conditions.


----------



## CubaMark

*Electric Cars In Ontario Being Hindered By Massive Network Of Power Companies*





> Ontario's overabundance of utility firms may pose a major roadblock to the province's plan to boost electric car ownership, some experts say.
> 
> The experts say Ontario's 75 independently operated utilities often overlap their efforts and breed inefficiency, holding back upgrades needed so the grid can support what the province expects will be an influx of electric cars in the next few years.
> 
> "A lot of work needs to be done (…) if Ontario is going to move toward infrastructure to support electrification of vehicles," said Hossam Gaber, an energy professor at the University of Ontario Institute of Technology.
> 
> "Having co-ordination is important to avoid waste of time, waste of resources and also, making sure we are not lacking or losing something important."
> 
> Plug'n Drive, a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the move to electric cars, said about 2,500 of the province's approximately seven million cars are electric — less than half a per cent.
> 
> The province said in 2009 it aims for one in 20 cars to be electric by 2020 — at least 380,000, based on current figures.


(HuffPo)


----------



## Macfury

*The Liberals *want electric cars but the utilities are not serving the government's policy? _Wahhhhh! _

The utilities should install the infrastructure when they have enough customers to warrant it.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The utilities should install the infrastructure when they have enough customers to warrant it.


Chicken / Egg.

Customer base will grow very slowly due to companies' resistance to spend on infrastructure. 

Infrastructure will not be built to encourage transition unless gov't policy or subsidies applied.

And therein lies the classic libertarian / liberal conflict.


----------



## jef

*99$ SmartForTwo Electric 2014*

Electric car prices are dropping - if I didn't need to drive more than the range of this car at short notice, I would grab this one. Hopefully the competition is just beginning.

The electric Smart for two may be limited to city drivers/commuters but $99 per month for a three year lease and no gas needed at all is not a bad deal...

https://www2.smart.com/ca/dealers/smartcenter-toronto/en/index/sales/2014-smart-electric-offer.html


----------



## Macfury

A large percentage of the driving public needs to drive outside the range of these vehicles at short notice!

The Smart Car is not badly priced--but it's a Smart Car. I've test-driven one and did not enjoy the feeling of driving something so woefully underpowered. I will say, however, that I did not feel the sense of vulnerability I might have expected in such a small cage--it seemed bigger once I got in.



jef said:


> Electric car prices are dropping - if I didn't need to drive more than the range of this car at short notice, I would grab this one. Hopefully the competition is just beginning.
> 
> The electric Smart for two may be limited to city drivers/commuters but $99 per month for a three year lease and no gas needed at all is not a bad deal...
> 
> https://www2.smart.com/ca/dealers/smartcenter-toronto/en/index/sales/2014-smart-electric-offer.html


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> A large percentage of the driving public needs to drive outside the range of these vehicles at short notice!
> 
> The Smart Car is not badly priced--but it's a Smart Car. I've test-driven one and did not enjoy the feeling of driving something so woefully underpowered. I will say, however, that I did not feel the sense of vulnerability I might have expected in such a small cage--it seemed bigger once I got in.


The Electric Smart Car is a totally different driving experience than it's gas and diesel models- the reviews are very favourable as far as power and handling. (Which you don't really need if you are just going to work and back)

2014 Smart ForTwo Electric Drive: What It's Like On The Road


----------



## Macfury

jef said:


> ...the reviews are very favourable as far as power and handling. (*Which you don't really need if you are just going to work and back*)


Yeah! I need it!!!

Seriously, 76 miles is a ridiculously tiny range for me. And 0-to-60 in 11.5 seconds is like an eternity.

I've got nothing against electric cars, but they're not ready for my usage patterns or expectations.


----------



## SINC

While 76 miles would be fine for me most days, I would still have to keep a second vehicle for those 400 km days that occur a few times a year.


----------



## SINC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iJJZfB7i0


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iJJZfB7i0


Interesting. Electric cars are a great idea in some cities in North America. Sadly, here in St. John's, there are potholes that would swallow some of these small cars, electric or not, and I wonder how they could plow through meter high snow drifts? Still, I would buy one if the cost was something I could afford.


----------



## Macfury

The first five metres are important, but most of my city manoeuvres, including fighting my way around streetcars, involve far more distance than that. The Smart4Two would be left waiting.


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla Now Offers Infinite-Mile Warranty*



Tesla just announced that they are extending the warranties of all 85kWH Model S drivetrains to eight years and infinite miles. Yes, infinite miles.

* * *

Musk, keen to advertise the reliability of an inherently simple electric drivetrain, said on his blog that an infinite-mile warranty should have been standard from the start.



> In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect that.



(Jalopnik)


----------



## Macfury

Since the engine/motor is not part of the drivetrain, what statement is being made?


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> While 76 miles would be fine for me most days, I would still have to keep a second vehicle for those 400 km days that occur a few times a year.


Same here. Those 400km+ days happen often enough that if I did have an electric, it would have to be an extra vehicle, not a primary one. Still, for $99/mo it's interesting.... a lot of people pay more for their phones. 

That price certainly addresses one of my biggest issues -- people will not embrace green tech en masse unless and until the cost is the same or lower than fossil fuel alternatives.

The next issue is charging stations, and speed charging. With such low range, they need to be on almost every block, as well as almost every kilometer on every highway. As it stands now, I've only ever seen one public charging station, and that was at Mall of America in Minneapolis.


----------



## Macfury

Electric charging costs don't include the grotesque taxes added at the pump. If electric cars are widely adopted, the price of electricity is set to skyrocket as excise and road taxes are added to electric bills.




heavyall said:


> Same here. Those 400km+ days happen often enough that if I did have an electric, it would have to be an extra vehicle, not a primary one. Still, for $99/mo it's interesting.... a lot of people pay more for their phones.
> 
> That price certainly addresses one of my biggest issues -- people will not embrace green tech en masse unless and until the cost is the same or lower than fossil fuel alternatives.
> 
> The next issue is charging stations, and speed charging. With such low range, they need to be on almost every block, as well as almost every kilometer on every highway. As it stands now, I've only ever seen one public charging station, and that was at Mall of America in Minneapolis.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

The Tesla is currently unable to compete with just cheap car prices!


----------



## Macfury

Tesla Stock Slides as CEO Eyes Profitability by 2020 » AutoGuide.com News



> During the same speech, Musk also urged automakers to accelerate the development and sale of EVs especially as gas prices continue to drop nationwide. During his speech, Musk urged the rest of the automotive industry to move more urgently with EVs to counter climate change while warning against the temptation to slow down as oil prices drop.
> 
> “We can’t rely on scarcity to drive the price of oil and gas and rely on that to be an adequate forcing function” to speed adoption of EVs, Musk said. “So we have to figure out how to do it without high oil and gas prices.”


Sure, by offering cars at competitive prices. However, "in what I'm sure would be an unrelated event" the government will slap a fuel tax on electricity and the advantage will be lost.


----------



## IllusionX

HydroQuebec is always slapping us massive increase in prices even though they are telling us to reduce electricity. We still end up paying more despite installing electronic thermostats, turning down heat/AC when nobody at home and insulating the home.


----------



## Macfury

Any economist looking at the situation would be able to expose the lies. The cost of running the system as badly as each province does is so great that any reduction in consumption will cause a shortfall in revenue. This results in a price increase. Add the ridiculous price of indefensible renewable projects like wind and solar and the price of electricity soars.

There's no way out of it but going off the grid. 



IllusionX said:


> HydroQuebec is always slapping us massive increase in prices even though they are telling us to reduce electricity. We still end up paying more despite installing electronic thermostats, turning down heat/AC when nobody at home and insulating the home.


----------



## IllusionX

Macfury said:


> Any economist looking at the situation would be able to expose the lies. The cost of running the system as badly as each province does is so great that any reduction in consumption will cause a shortfall in revenue. This results in a price increase. Add the ridiculous price of indefensible renewable projects like wind and solar and the price of electricity soars.
> 
> There's no way out of it but going off the grid.


If i lived outside the city, i would probably get off the grid with solar and wind power.


----------



## Macfury

IllusionX said:


> If i lived outside the city, i would probably get off the grid with solar and wind power.


Outside Toronto, many new condo projects are bypassing the grid and going on natural gas-powered electricity.


----------



## IllusionX

natural gas is still a fossil fuel. i don't know if it's better than nuclear power. But it is not a clean source of energy such as hydro power used in Quebec.


----------



## Macfury

IllusionX said:


> natural gas is still a fossil fuel. i don't know if it's better than nuclear power. But it is not a clean source of energy such as hydro power used in Quebec.


Hydro is cleaner than natural gas, but natural gas is abundant, cheap and relatively clean. It can also be distributed without an intricate transmission infrastructure--just a gas pipe

I like a mix of hydro, natural gas, clean coal and nuclear. Kill wind power and solar.


----------



## CubaMark

*Language warning*





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

What are these people used to driving? Ladas?


----------



## CubaMark

*Canada Offering EV Rebate Via Cash-For-Clunkers Program*

In the summer of 2009, America’s official Cash for Clunkers program got underway, with the hopes of propping up a floundering auto industry and getting old, polluting cars off the road. The Canadian province of British Columbia (BC) has launched it’s own Cash-For-Clunkers program, but with the $3,250 rebates only good towards the purchase of a plug-in car, reports Autos.ca.

British Columbia actually ended up a test case for what happens when local governments remove incentives for buying plug-in cars. The results made it clear that incentives for plug-in car drivers really do make a difference, which encouraged BC to develop a new Scrap-It program targeting cars age 15 years or older. Drivers who turn in their old cars to be recycled will receive a $3,250 rebate towards the purchase of an electric car or Chevy Volt/Cadillac ELR, but interestingly enough, no other plug–in hybrid or hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Considering Vancouver recently scrapped about $90 million worth of hydrogen buses, it seems like maybe Canada has gotten its fill of fuel cells.

The $3,000 rebate (plus $250 from car dealers) is more than the book value of many pre-200 vehicles. That’s not the only incentive BC has to offer plug-in car buyers though, as the provincial government is expected to re-introduce an up-to $5,000 rebate for the purchase of a plug-in car, though it’s unclear whether the $2,500 rebate for plug-in hybrids will also make a comeback. For those willing to go pure electric though, the rebates could add up to more than $8,000 off the MSRP of an electric car, though other parts of the land of hockey and maple syrup can get up to $11,000 in incentives.​
(Gas2org)


----------



## Macfury

As I said, electric cars can't make it one their own.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> As I said, electric cars can't make it one their own.


Having owned an all-electric car for the last 8 months and hybrids for the last 10 years, I will never go back to a gas-only car. 

In the next 3 to 5 years, we will see range increases and price decreases as the technology continues to improve so they will clearly stand on their own and then some.


----------



## Macfury

I suspect that some of them WILL eventually stand on their own. There's no reason for the government to get involved, considering that the ultimate beneficiaries of these grants are auto companies.



jef said:


> Having owned an all-electric car for the last 8 months and hybrids for the last 10 years, I will never go back to a gas-only car.
> 
> In the next 3 to 5 years, we will see range increases and price decreases as the technology continues to improve so they will clearly stand on their own and then some.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> I suspect that some of them WILL eventually stand on their own. There's no reason for the government to get involved, considering that the ultimate beneficiaries of these grants are auto companies.


But both the oil and auto manufacturers enjoyed many decades and billions in subsidies over the years. What is being offered now is a tiny jump start to a far more efficient and beneficial technology change. The benefits far outweigh the cost of subsidies.


----------



## Macfury

This is a myth. The oil industry largely enjoyed the same subsidies that other businesses did--writing off their costs against their revenue. The initial development of oil in the 1880s was all on the company's dime.

The automobile industry likewise developed on its own capital, with consumers picking winners and losers.

If the switch to electric vehicles is considered efficient and beneficial by consumers, they won't mind paying the costs of receiving those efficiencies. 

I would also argue that the benefits of introducing more electric vehicles on the road do not outweigh the costs. Both Ontario and BC are crying that their electric systems can't handle peak loads. The added infrastructure costs of introducing greater capacity to the system far outweigh the benefits.



jef said:


> But both the oil and auto manufacturers enjoyed many decades and billions in subsidies over the years. What is being offered now is a tiny jump start to a far more efficient and beneficial technology change. The benefits far outweigh the cost of subsidies.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> This is a myth. The oil industry largely enjoyed the same subsidies that other businesses did--writing off their costs against their revenue. The initial development of oil in the 1880s was all on the company's dime.


How can anyone be so completely blind to reality? There are ample discussions of this on ehMac with sources to show that this is NOT a myth.

Heck, here's something that just popped up on the news. Is the government doing this for green energy programmes?

*‘Go big': Inside the $24 million, two-year federal plan to market Canadian oil*

The Maple Leaf was plastered on the walls of subway stops in Washington, D.C., and it popped up in all sorts of American publications with messages like, "America's Best Energy Partner," and "Friends and Neighbors."

Documents obtained by The Canadian Press offer a peek at the behind-the-scenes strategic considerations in 2013, as the federal government conducted *a $1.6-million U.S. ad campaign that grew into a $24-million, two-year program* that wraps up this month.

The records, released under the Access to Information Act, reveal the websites to be shunned as advertising outlets; the Internet search words that would trigger a Canadian energy ad; the coveted locations for billboards in Washington, D.C.; the rejected proposals; and the U.S. ad salespeople who angled for a slice of the publicity pie.

Throughout the two-year campaign, the Keystone pipeline issue remained unresolved. But that doesn't mean it failed, defenders say. In fact, the ads didn't mention Keystone. The original call for tenders spelled out the mission: to defend Canadian energy's reputation against hostile groups and lawmakers threatening anti-oilsands measures in the U.S. and Europe.

One proposed weapon for fighting back: pop-up ads.​
(NationalNewsWatch / CP)


----------



## Macfury

The government backs plenty of business it has no business backing, but the green energy welfare cases make the oil industry look like pikers. In Ontario alone, so-called renewables have been subsidized to the tune of $2 billion sine 2006, along with a hefty budget promoting the program. That's just Ontario!

Want more? The Ontario government spends $15 million _a year _to advertise Ontario grown produce. Look at the millions spent to promote tourism at all levels. It's cost $25 million just to build a replica of the Bluenose.

But poor CM thinks the baddies in the oil industry have been unfairly favourited again. 




CubaMark said:


> How can anyone be so completely blind to reality? There are ample discussions of this on ehMac with sources to show that this is NOT a myth.
> 
> Heck, here's something that just popped up on the news. Is the government doing this for green energy programmes?
> 
> *‘Go big': Inside the $24 million, two-year federal plan to market Canadian oil*
> 
> The Maple Leaf was plastered on the walls of subway stops in Washington, D.C., and it popped up in all sorts of American publications with messages like, "America's Best Energy Partner," and "Friends and Neighbors."
> 
> Documents obtained by The Canadian Press offer a peek at the behind-the-scenes strategic considerations in 2013, as the federal government conducted *a $1.6-million U.S. ad campaign that grew into a $24-million, two-year program* that wraps up this month.
> 
> The records, released under the Access to Information Act, reveal the websites to be shunned as advertising outlets; the Internet search words that would trigger a Canadian energy ad; the coveted locations for billboards in Washington, D.C.; the rejected proposals; and the U.S. ad salespeople who angled for a slice of the publicity pie.
> 
> Throughout the two-year campaign, the Keystone pipeline issue remained unresolved. But that doesn't mean it failed, defenders say. In fact, the ads didn't mention Keystone. The original call for tenders spelled out the mission: to defend Canadian energy's reputation against hostile groups and lawmakers threatening anti-oilsands measures in the U.S. and Europe.
> 
> One proposed weapon for fighting back: pop-up ads.​
> (NationalNewsWatch / CP)


----------



## CubaMark

Man, you really have this talking in circles thing down pat, don't you? 

Equating oil subsidies to a dirty, polluting industry to the promotion of produce or tourism development. _Really?_

The bit I posted above is an _example_ of the kinds of subsidies the oil industry has received. _A very tiny example_. 

According to a November 2014 article in The Guardian (UK), the estimated annual subsidies to the oil industry amount to *$88-Billion*.

But that doesn't fall onto your radar at all, does it? You practice some pretty wacky economics, MF.


----------



## Macfury

> Equating oil subsidies to a dirty, polluting industry to the promotion of produce or tourism development. _Really?_


I can just see that quivering lower lip as you post this. Yes, I am equating them since YOU were the one who said that oil industry subsidies were unique among industries. 



> The bit I posted above is an _example_ of the kinds of subsidies the oil industry has received. _A very tiny example_.


You thought that the $24 million story was a great argument in your favour so you led with it. Having it torn away from you caused you to go looking for that old hackneyed study, which has already been torn apart here years ago when it was first presented. 

The $88 billion figure includes such egregious subsidies as _writing off exploration costs against income_, because, well, those oil companies are just made up of bad people who should not be allowed to write off their costs like other companies. Or this one: if the writers of the study were kings of the world, they would tax oil at a much higher rate than other products, but evil governments will not listen to their sage advice, therefore this also represents a subsidy in their fevered minds.

Here's another one. Say I own a piece of property and pay a drilling company to drill a test well with an agreement that we will share any revenue from a successful well. Am I subsidizing the drilling company? That study says hiring them to drill is a subsidy. Pure nonsense and embarrassing semantic conniptions.

The study insists that NOT adding a carbon tax to the price of oil is a subsidy.

In other words, the study is largely a "Progressive" fantasy.

Do you want more of your ass handed to you?



CubaMark said:


> Man, you really have this talking in circles thing down pat, don't you?
> 
> Equating oil subsidies to a dirty, polluting industry to the promotion of produce or tourism development. _Really?_
> 
> The bit I posted above is an _example_ of the kinds of subsidies the oil industry has received. _A very tiny example_.
> 
> According to a November 2014 article in The Guardian (UK), the estimated annual subsidies to the oil industry amount to *$88-Billion*.
> 
> But that doesn't fall onto your radar at all, does it? You practice some pretty wacky economics, MF.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Do you want more of your ass handed to you?


Yes, please...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Yes, please...


A new database, Uncle Sam's Favorite Corporations:

Uncle Sam's Favorite Corporations | Good Jobs First

chronicles the biggest federal corporate welfare cases. Leading the pack:



> *The largest recipient of grants and allocated tax credits is the Spanish energy company Iberdrola, which acquired them by investing heavily in U.S. power generation facilities, including wind farms that have made use of a renewable energy provision of the 2009 Recovery Act*. Iberdrola’s subsidy total is $2.2 billion.





> Iberdrola is not the only foreign renewable energy company with a large amount of federal subsidies. EDP-Energias de Portugal, which entered *the U.S. wind market* through its 2007 purchase of Horizon Wind Energy, has received more than $722 million in Section 1603 funds. The Spanish company Abengoa, which built* the world’s largest parabolic-trough solar energy facility* in Arizona, has received $605 million in grants and allocated tax credits; $464 million came from Section 1603 and most of the rest from Energy Department research grants.


Emphasis mine.


----------



## CubaMark

*Weird Ride Wednesday: The Hybrid VW Type II Bus That Never Was*



Jalopnik came across this forgotten design in the Complete Book of Electric Vehicles, and the hybrid Volkswagen bus described in its pages matches the idea behind many hybrid vehicles today. A standard 50 horsepower Volkswagen 1600 cc air-cooled engine was paired with a Bosch electric motor and a bank of 11 lead-acid batteries, providing comparable driving range and fuel economy (about 20 MPG) to many vehicles of the day.

Once the electricity from the battery packs was drained, the gas engine could act as a generator, motivate the Volkswagen independently of the electric motor, or work in conjunction with the electric motor for a double dose of power. Even with both powerplants pushing the hybrid van along acceleration was pretty pathetic, taking more than 30 seconds to reach 60 MPH, and top speed was only 65 MPH.​
(Jalopnik via Gas2)


----------



## Macfury

I wouldn't want to take a hard left in that taxi--everything is weighted to the driver's side!


----------



## Dr.G.

I Thought It Was Just A Volkswagen Van, But Then I Saw What It Does. WoW!

Not all electric, but a unique use of a VW van concept.


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> I Thought It Was Just A Volkswagen Van, But Then I Saw What It Does. WoW!
> 
> Not all electric, but a unique use of a VW van concept.


Not much of a bargain at 55 thousand pounds sterling. That is about what I paid for a fully equipped class A motor home with far more creature comforts and full size appliances. It also rides and sleeps six persons.


----------



## CubaMark

VW's new Transporter T6 van is being revealed on April 15th - still gas & diesel, no electric (as far as anyone knows):


----------



## CubaMark

*Clean Energy Revolution Is Ahead of Schedule*

The most important piece of news on the energy front isn't the plunge in oil prices, but the progress that is being made in battery technology. A new study in Nature Climate Change, by Bjorn Nykvist and Mans Nilsson of the Stockholm Environment Institute, shows that electric vehicle batteries have been getting cheaper much faster than expected. 

From 2007 to 2011, average battery costs for battery-powered electric vehicles fell by about 14 percent a year. For the leading electric vehicle makers, Tesla and Nissan, costs fell by 8 percent a year. This astounding decline puts battery costs right around the level that the International Energy Agency predicted they would reach in 2020. We are six years ahead of the curve.

(Bloomberg)


----------



## Macfury

Why do you call the battery "clean energy"? 

Still at this trajectory, unsubsidized electric cars may be economically viable by the year 2025.


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> From 2007 to 2011, average battery costs for battery-powered electric vehicles fell by about 14 percent a year. For the leading electric vehicle makers, Tesla and Nissan, costs fell by 8 percent a year. This astounding decline puts battery costs right around the level that the International Energy Agency predicted they would reach in 2020. We are six years ahead of the curve.


Great news!

However, they still get charged by burned coal...


----------



## Macfury

Hybrid and Electric Vehicles Struggle to Maintain Owner Loyalty, Reports Edmunds.com





> Car buyers are trading in hybrid and electric cars for SUVs at a higher rate than ever before, according to a new analysis from car-buying platform Edmunds.com. The analysis offers a surprising look at how today's gas prices are drawing hybrid and EV owners toward gas-guzzling vehicles at a much more accelerated pace than in recent years.
> 
> According to Edmunds.com, about 22 percent of people who have traded in their hybrids and EVs in 2015 bought a new SUV. The number represents a sharp increase from 18.8 percent last year, and it is nearly double the rate of 11.9 percent just three years ago. Overall, only 45 percent of this year's hybrid and EV trade-ins have gone toward the purchase of another alternative fuel vehicle, down from just over 60 percent in 2012. Never before have loyalty rates for alt-fuel vehicles fallen below 50 percent.
> 
> "For better or worse, it looks like many hybrid and EV owners are driven more by financial motives rather than a responsibility to the environment," says Edmunds.com Director of Industry Analysis Jessica Caldwell. "Three years ago, when gas was at near-record highs, it was a lot easier to rationalize the price premiums on alternative fuel vehicles. But with today's gas prices as low as they are, the math just doesn't make a very compelling case."





> Edmunds' analysis comes at a time when overall sales of alternative vehicles have continued to slide. EVs and hybrids accounted for just 2.7 percent of all new car sales in the first quarter of 2015, down from 3.3 percent during that same period last year. The share of SUVs, meanwhile, has increased from 31.8 percent in Q1 2014 to 34.2 percent in Q1 2015.


----------



## FeXL

Further on the above.

Record Numbers Of Drivers Trading In Electric Cars For SUVs



> Electric cars also suffer from issues with battery life. Each hybrid or electric car battery can cost thousands, or even tens of thousands, of dollars, which only helps tip the economic scale in favor of traditional vehicles.
> 
> “It wouldn’t make sense to replace a 12-year old battery with a new battery that’s going to last 12 years, because chances are the car’s not going to last that long,” Eric Ibara with Kelley Blue Book told Detroit News.


More:

Electric vehicles lose buzz



> New mainstream plug-in hybrid electrics can sell for more than $30,000 with up to $7,500 in federal tax credits. But used models are selling for less than half of their original amount.
> 
> Used plug-in car values have been lower than comparable vehicles with traditional combustion engines since launching, due to the heavy federal tax credit and inflated pricing, according to Kelley Blue Book director of residual value consulting Eric Ibara.


Finally, some of the costs of operating an electric car are starting to sink in. Batteries, depreciation...


----------



## FeXL

Further fallout from slumping sales of electric/compact cars.

Ford to lay off 700 at Michigan Assembly plant in Wayne



> Ford said today that it is planning to cut a shift at its Michigan Assembly Plant where it makes the Ford Focus compact car and C-Max crossover because of declining sales of small cars, hybrids and electric vehicles.
> 
> The automaker told workers and notified the state of Michigan that it will lay off 700 workers, starting June 22. The decision affects 675 hourly workers and 25 salaried employees who make the Focus, Focus ST, Focus Electric, C-Max hybrid and C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid at the Wayne plant.


----------



## kloan

FeXL said:


> However, they still get charged by burned coal...


What a tired argument. And no, they're not ALL charged by coal-sourced electricity. Change has to start somewhere.

If electric vehicles aren't a good place to start, what's your brilliant strategy?



FeXL said:


> Further on the above.
> 
> Record Numbers Of Drivers Trading In Electric Cars For SUVs
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> Electric vehicles lose buzz
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, some of the costs of operating an electric car are starting to sink in. Batteries, depreciation...


Costs of ownership. Not the same thing. Anyway, who cares? I'm pretty sure that's not a deciding factor in most people's minds when they're considering the purchase.



FeXL said:


> Further fallout from slumping sales of electric/compact cars.
> 
> Ford to lay off 700 at Michigan Assembly plant in Wayne


Yikes, I think they better start producing oversized, gas-guzzling vehicles so they can save jobs. Definitely.


----------



## kloan

..............


----------



## kloan

.................


----------



## CubaMark

*Test-driving a gasoline-powered car...*

*Test drive of a petrol car*










Having heard so much good about petrol cars, we decided to test drive one. They are said to combine cheap price with long range and fast charging. A winning formula on paper – but how are they in real life?

We sat us in the loaner car at the car salesman’s office. Automakers do not sell the cars themselves, only through independent car repair shops as middlemen. It may sound like a bad omen to buy the car from a car repair shop that you want to visit as seldom as possible. But you apparently can’t buy the car directly from the manufacturer but must go through such intermediaries. The seller was very ”pushy” and tried to convince us to buy the car very forcibly, but the experience is perhaps better elsewhere.

So we sat in the car and pressed the START button. The car’s gasoline engine coughed to life and started to operate. One could hear the engine’s sound and the car’s whole body vibrated as if something was broken, but the seller assured us that everything was as it should. The car actually has an electric motor and a microscopically small battery, but they are only used to start the petrol engine – the electric motor does not drive the wheels. The petrol engine then uses a tank full of gasoline, a fossil liquid, to propel the car by exploding small drops of it. It is apparently the small explosions that you hear and feel when the engine is running.​(more at Tesla Club Sweden)


----------



## Macfury

The point is merely that electric car sales have been poor, especially given cheap gas. Anyone is welcome to buy one at any price, even to fulfill a "green" fantasy.

Where should we start? By buying what we enjoy owning.



kloan said:


> What a tired argument. And no, they're not ALL charged by coal-sourced electricity. Change has to start somewhere.
> 
> If electric vehicles aren't a good place to start, what's your brilliant strategy?
> 
> 
> Costs of ownership. Not the same thing. Anyway, who cares? I'm pretty sure that's not a deciding factor in most people's minds when they're considering the purchase.
> 
> 
> Yikes, I think they better start producing oversized, gas-guzzling vehicles so they can save jobs. Definitely.


----------



## FeXL

kloan said:


> What a tired argument.


Yes, and yet it still works. 



kloan said:


> And no, they're not ALL charged by coal-sourced electricity.


Correct. They are not all charged by coal-sourced electricity. However, most will be, for the foreseeable future, at least in the US. I tried to find a breakdown of Canadian electrical generation, unfortunately I was unable to in my brief search. Betting it's similar.

Unfortunately, in Africa, where 600 million people have zero access to electricity, electric cars aren't much in demand.



kloan said:


> Change has to start somewhere.


First off, then let the market decide what & when is timely.

Second off, fine. If change it must be, then fund your change with your own money & quit milking the taxpayers for subsidies, offsets, credits & all other forms of corporate socialism.



kloan said:


> If electric vehicles aren't a good place to start, what's your brilliant strategy?


Sorry, no brilliant strategies. Frankly, no problems with the status quo. 

However, I have heard good things about natural gas powered vehicles, although they are less convenient at fill-up time. I understand that there is potential for hydrogen-powered cars. Whatever the future provides, I just don't want to have to resort to taxpayer exploitation to make it successful. Period.



kloan said:


> Costs of ownership. Not the same thing. Anyway, who cares? I'm pretty sure that's not a deciding factor in most people's minds when they're considering the purchase.


I stand corrected. Thank you. As to who cares, any one who purchases _anything_, from a toaster to a house. If not, they're stupid. Plain & simple...



kloan said:


> Yikes, I think they better start producing oversized, gas-guzzling vehicles so they can save jobs. Definitely.


My point was, this is the typical end result of any government welfare effort. Create a make work program (the false demand for electrical vehicles), the funding runs out or the situation changes (price of gas drops) &, suddenly, you have all the previously unemployed people back out on the street again, looking for work.

Rinse, repeat...


----------



## Macfury

Where do I line up for one of these babies?



CubaMark said:


> So we sat in the car and pressed the START button. The car’s gasoline engine coughed to life and started to operate. One could hear the engine’s sound and the car’s whole body vibrated as if something was broken, but the seller assured us that everything was as it should. The car actually has an electric motor and a microscopically small battery, but they are only used to start the petrol engine – the electric motor does not drive the wheels. The petrol engine then uses a tank full of gasoline, a fossil liquid, to propel the car by exploding small drops of it. It is apparently the small explosions that you hear and feel when the engine is running.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Where do I line up for one of these babies?


Ya s'pose they got a two-wheeled version planned anytime? Something with a _real_ rumble? :love2:


----------



## FeXL

Almost Friday Funny – Tesla is apparently recharging ’emissions free’ electric cars with a diesel generator



> _Teslas charging off a diesel generator behind the Harris Ranch battery swap station.​_


More on all those Tesla's participating in a battery swap over Memorial Day weekend at the link.


----------



## Macfury

Fossil fuels are a great way to go off-grid!



FeXL said:


> Almost Friday Funny – Tesla is apparently recharging ’emissions free’ electric cars with a diesel generator
> 
> 
> 
> More on all those Tesla's participating in a battery swap over Memorial Day weekend at the link.


----------



## FeXL

Yeah, just like those guys in Spain (I believe) who were getting solar power at night by running a generator to power lights that shone on solar panels...



Macfury said:


> Fossil fuels are a great way to go off-grid!


----------



## FeXL

Your green car could cause black rain in China



> You may have a "green" car, but it could be causing black rain in China from the graphite mined and used in its lithium ion battery.


Further:



> At the same time, they point out an electric vehicle powered by average European energy production will likely reduce a vehicle’s emissions by 20 per cent over its life cycle. The authors note while that is not insignificant, *it is nowhere near a zero-emission option*.


M'bold.

More:



> “As we adopt greener technologies, we will have to look beyond our shiny new Powerwall, or the electric car parked on the front drive, *to ensure that the environmental and social changes promised by green technologies are not just illusions*,” the authors conclude.


M'bold.

This guy just ended his career...


----------



## CubaMark

Interesting that you critics of emerging technologies haven't been likewise critical of the massive pollution repercussions of the existing fossil fuel industry. At least in terms of solar panels and battery technology, researchers are working constantly toward using alternate materials, reducing toxic elements, higher efficiency, while old squished dinosaurs can't get any cleaner. They come out of the ground dirty and at every stage of refining, more pollution is created right up until it's burned in somebody's gas tank.

But please, do go on establishing your new environmentalist cred....


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Interesting that you critics of emerging technologies haven't been likewise critical of the massive pollution repercussions of the existing fossil fuel industry. At least in terms of solar panels and battery technology, researchers are working constantly toward using alternate materials, reducing toxic elements, higher efficiency, while old squished dinosaurs can't get any cleaner. They come out of the ground dirty and at every stage of refining, more pollution is created right up until it's burned in somebody's gas tank.
> 
> But please, do go on establishing your new environmentalist cred....


Got no problem with the tech, or anyone who wants to support it out of their own pocket. What I have a problem with is selling the tech to fools in the government under false pretenses. Other than that, I don't care how much "green" technologies pollute the earth.


----------



## Rps

Personally, I'm looking to buy an electric car. I am more worried about the batteries in cell phones, iPads, iPod and a host of other items whose sales far exceed the electric cars.


----------



## Macfury

Go ahead. Once you've made a decision to buy an electric car it's easy to start worrying about other people's batteries. These concerns are better left at the individual level, rather than the public policy level.


----------



## Rps

I agree. I have driven a number of them in the city and it will meet my needs. I don't think it matters what we do, something will always surface as an environmental issue. The point is, you have to start somewhere in the evolution of green products and, in many cases, the first ones out do not seem very green.


----------



## Macfury

You don't actually have to start anywhere. Just buy whatever makes you happy. You don't need to justify your purchase as some sort of act of social justice.


----------



## eMacMan

At some point owners of electric cars will be put on "Demand Rates" which bill the entire cycle at the peak load. This will be needed to build new infrastructure to offset increased demand. 

Bottom line, at that point electric cars will cost as much to operate as their gasoline cousins.

To my thinking best combo would be solar charging on the electric car. However current solar panels can generate roughly 100watts/hour from a one square meter collector. To get the 2 or 3 Kilowatts/hour needed to make this viable means a fairly massive array and a big upfront investment beyond the car itself.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> At some point owners of electric cars will be put on "Demand Rates" which bill the entire cycle at the peak load. This will be needed to build new infrastructure to offset increased demand.


Government will simply want their gas tax back. This is just the part where you get into the Venus Fly Trap--the digestion starts later.


----------



## CubaMark

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

That simply looks invasive. Like a disturbing sci-fi film about bodysnatchers.


----------



## CubaMark

*Scotland Provides Interest-Free Loan For Electric Vehicles*

The Scottish government has unveiled a new financing scheme in the hope of expediting the uptake of electric cars by consumers and private companies and cut down on vehicle-related emissions.

Scotland’s Energy Saving Trust has allocated £2.5 million to the funding plan which provides businesses and individuals with easier access to loans that can cover the full cost of electric vehicles.

Under the “Switched on Scotland” scheme, interest-free loans of up to £100,000 will be provided to private companies and £50,000 to individuals for the purchase of electric cars.

The payback period for the loans will be as long as six years, providing vehicle buyers with sufficient time to perform repayments using money saved by means of reduced fuel consumption.

According to Derek Mackay, Scottish transport minister, switching to electric vehicles will play a critical role in enabling Scotland to satisfy its commitment to climate change targets.​
(Gas 2.0)

*Related:*


----------



## Macfury

Utterly wrong-headed.


----------



## pm-r

I knew there was something missing… 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8puuDB7xtjE


----------



## FeXL

Related to the VW emissions fraud.

Hybrids and the cost of virtue signalling



> What caught my eye was the discussion of hybrids. The official tests assume that hybrids are driven in electric mode for two thirds of their mileage. The reports authors' reckon that it is rather less and suggest that, as a result, the overall carbon emissions could be as much as 50% higher than suggested by the test results.
> 
> But it gets worse. The authors reckon that in the real world, drivers don't stop to recharge the batteries - they drive on the petrol engine. Apparently in the Netherlands surveys have suggested that there may be a 200% gap in emissions performance between the real world and the test results because of this effect. The authors suggest that the figure may be lower elsewhere, perhaps of the order of 100-150%. In essence, for much of the time, hybrid drivers are carting around a run-down battery that they don't use - it's the hidden cost of virtue signalling if you like.


----------



## CubaMark

*Fisker Becomes Karma Automotive, To Relaunch In 2016*










Henrik Fisker hasn't been involved with his namesake company since before it declared bankruptcy in 2013.

But Fisker Automotive has continued to bear his name since being purchased by Chinese automotive supplier Wanxiang.

Now that it is moving closer to restarting production of the Karma luxury sedan, though, the new owners apparently thought it was time for a change.

Fisker Automotive is now Karma Automotive, complete with a new website and logo.

Of course, the company's sole product is still called Karma as well.

Does that make it the "Karma Karma?"

* * *​
The Karma is expected to relaunch in 2016 with at least a few updates to what is now a fairly old design by industry standards.

The rebooted car will have an electric-only range of 50 miles, and a combined range of 350 miles on electricity and gasoline, Karma chief marketing officer Jim Taylor told Bloomberg.

A 2012 Karma is rated at 33 miles of electric range and 240 miles of total range by the EPA, so that would be a notable improvement.​
(GreenCarReports)


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla Model X: The New Safest SUV?*










The Tesla Motors [NSDQ: TSLA] Model X SUV has been revealed in production form; and while the packaging and performance of this new electric SUV are mostly as expected, there were plenty of surprises.

One of the surprises was how well the trick double-hinged falcon doors are designed—with a very narrow spread as they open, plus sensors that adjust the arc of the doors to available height. Another was that the Model X can tow 5,000 pounds, while carrying seven people and luggage.

But the one that CEO Elon Musk spent nearly the first half of the Model X presentation outlining was safety. The Model X, he said, is the first SUV that’s five-star in every category.

Musk summed that in the federal tests, those stars correlate directly to the probability of injury in a particular set of conditions.

For frontal crashes, the lack of an engine block allows engineers to have a longer distance for the crumple zone.

The Model X also achieves perfect five-star results, he said; and its side pole test also has about half the intrusion of the next closest SUV model.

Also because of the low-set battery pack and resulting extremely low center of mass, it has half the rollover propensity of any SUV or minivan.

* * *

But safety does take other forms, and Musk then couldn’t resist a little jab to other current events.

“Recent events have illustrated the importance of air safety,” he said, clearly alluding to Volkswagen’s “clean diesel” emissions-cheating scandal, then introducing a true HEPA air filtration system for the Model X, including three layers of activated carbon.

In its maximum setting, viruses and spores are indetectible.

“If there’s ever an...apocalyptic scenario, of some kind, hypothetically, you just press the *bioweapon defense mode button...this is a real button*,” Musk said, as air-pollution-related reductions in life expectancy for some major world cities were shown on screen.​(GreenCarReports)​


----------



## Macfury

Sad. 



CubaMark said:


> *Fisker Becomes Karma Automotive, To Relaunch In 2016*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Henrik Fisker hasn't been involved with his namesake company since before it declared bankruptcy in 2013.
> 
> But Fisker Automotive has continued to bear his name since being purchased by Chinese automotive supplier Wanxiang.
> 
> Now that it is moving closer to restarting production of the Karma luxury sedan, though, the new owners apparently thought it was time for a change.
> 
> Fisker Automotive is now Karma Automotive, complete with a new website and logo.
> 
> Of course, the company's sole product is still called Karma as well.
> 
> Does that make it the "Karma Karma?"
> 
> * * *​
> The Karma is expected to relaunch in 2016 with at least a few updates to what is now a fairly old design by industry standards.
> 
> The rebooted car will have an electric-only range of 50 miles, and a combined range of 350 miles on electricity and gasoline, Karma chief marketing officer Jim Taylor told Bloomberg.
> 
> A 2012 Karma is rated at 33 miles of electric range and 240 miles of total range by the EPA, so that would be a notable improvement.​
> (GreenCarReports)


----------



## Macfury

oops!

Tesla Model S P85D Owners Say It Doesn’t Make 691HP



> A group of 71 Tesla owners, investors, and supporters have written a lengthy open letter to company CEO Elon Musk in order to voice their concern that the Model S P85D’s official power output is overblown.
> 
> Tesla claims the P85D — which is equipped with two electric motors — generates a total of 691 horsepower, a figure that makes it almost as powerful as Dodge’s acclaimed Charger and Challenger Hellcat models. However, the concerned individuals report that the highest figure they’ve been able to obtain by testing the Model S on a dynamometer and with professional performance data loggers is 557 ponies when the battery is fully charged.
> 
> “The missing horsepower is quite noticeable at highway passing speeds,” notes the author of the letter. “For example, from 70-90 mph, the P85D should perform like a car with a power to weight ratio of 1 horsepower for every 7 pounds. Instead it performs like a car with 1 horsepower for every 9 pounds. The res


ult of this is that from 70-90 mph the P85D is easily outperformed by an Audi RS 7.”


----------



## SINC

And so it begins:

Teslas Hit by 180% Danish Tax on Cars as Green Goals Ditched - Bloomberg Business


----------



## Macfury

Bwaaaaah! Why should electric cars have to compete on a level playing field?


----------



## FeXL

Interesting about face.

Tesla Tumbles After Consumer Reports Yanks Its "Best Car Ever" Recommendation, Now Says It Has "Poor Reliability"



> In what is truly historic flip flop, just a month after Consumer Reports said the Tesla Model S is *the best car it has ever tested*, the agency has not only yanked its original review, but has come out with what is clearly a hitjob sponsored by another highest bidder, aimed squarely at Elon Musk's overpriced science experiment.


Bold from the link.


----------



## Macfury

Initially, they said the damned thing scored 103 out of 100. 

So now how many Teslas can dance on the head of a pin?


----------



## FeXL

Because any car that says "electric" on it gets bonus points...


----------



## SINC

Ya don't say.

Electric vehicles expected to be the norm by 2026 | CTV News | Autos


----------



## Rps

Just curious, anyone out there drive a Chevy Volt? I have talked with 3 Volt owners here in Windsor and they love the cars. Anyone in Ehmac land have one. I am especially interested in Volt owners who live in real winter conditions.


----------



## pm-r

A fair amount of info out on the 'net if you haven't looked already…
https://www.google.ca/search?client...&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=WN1dVoiSKZTt8we0qrPoCg


----------



## Rps

pm-r said:


> A fair amount of info out on the 'net if you haven't looked already…
> https://www.google.ca/search?client...&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=WN1dVoiSKZTt8we0qrPoCg


I have read most of these articles, but I believe there is nothing like talking to an actual driver of one.


----------



## CubaMark

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

This belongs in the GHG topic CM--the salesman is right that human-caused climate change is BS. 

That young guy is completely hapless. The girl should dump him.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> This belongs in the GHG topic CM--the salesman is right that human-caused climate change is BS.
> 
> That young guy is completely hapless. The girl should dump him.


Girl is pretty hapless herself -- dousing herself at the pump?


----------



## FeXL

h/t Ace of Spades.

Even the slowest boats eventually make it across the river.



> Washington Post admits that, no: electric cars were NOT worth it.


----------



## CubaMark

*VW Announces the BUDD*E Electric Minivan at CES 2016*










...at CES 2016, volkswagen uncovered the avant-garde zero emission ‘BUDD-e’ minivan. the nostalgia-induced vehicle is the first model based on an equally new and progressive platform for electric vehicles with a range of up to 533 kilometers.


















(DesignBloom)


----------



## FeXL

Electric Cars Still Struggling To Make Headway



> Plug in electric cars are still struggling to make any real headway in the UK. According to figures from the SMMT, although sales of pure electric cars last year increased from 6697 to 9934, this still only represents a tiny fraction of new car sales of 2.6 million.
> 
> ...
> 
> Over in the US, sales of electric cars have actually declined, as Bloomberg reports


Good. Damn coal-powered cars, anyway...


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> ...at CES 2016, volkswagen uncovered the avant-garde zero emission ‘BUDD-e’ minivan. the _nostalgia-induced_ vehicle is the first model based on an equally new and progressive platform for electric vehicles with a range of up to 533 kilometers.


Nostalgia for what? Looks like a typical modern Euro-box.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Nostalgia for what? Looks like a typical modern Euro-box.


The 'nostalgia' for the old VW Type 2 (microbus / kombi). But I agree that this thing doesn't evoke that in my view. I know that modern vehicle crash standards make a true cab-over design pretty much impossible to bring to market, but the design is still too far from that 60s look to get me overly excited.

Gotta like that EV range, though....


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> The 'nostalgia' for the old VW Type 2 (microbus / kombi). But I agree that this thing doesn't evoke that in my view. I know that modern vehicle crash standards make a true cab-over design pretty much impossible to bring to market, but the design is still too far from that 60s look to get me overly excited.
> 
> Gotta like that EV range, though....


Agreed. No songs by Lobo playing in my head.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> The 'nostalgia' for the old VW Type 2 (microbus / kombi). But I agree that this thing doesn't evoke that in my view. I know that modern vehicle crash standards make a true cab-over design pretty much impossible to bring to market, but the design is still too far from that 60s look to get me overly excited.
> 
> Gotta like that EV range, though....


Personally I want nothing to do with touch screen controls in an auto. With well designed buttons, levers and knobs I can do whatever I need to do without having to look at the control. Not so with touchscreens. That is giving the benefit of the doubt that the screen will respond as designed to my touch. Most do not.

Another thought is that solar panel on the roof can only possibly deliver a max of about 400 watts per hour (probably less) or roughly 50 daylight hours to do a 25% recharge of 92.5KWH battery.


----------



## eMacMan

This does get me wondering as to what the capacity of a regular old car battery is. 

I know that a 25 watt dome lamp can drain said battery completely if left lit for 24 hours. I also know that a trickle charger can somewhat revitalize it in 24 hours at a charge rate of about 15 Watts/hour. So I am guessing that the effective capacity has to be well under 1-KWH.


----------



## pm-r

Plus the charging source needs to produce some extra power just in order to overcome the internal resistance of the battery.

OT: Personally I don't understand the adoption and endorsement of ANY touch screen controls in any auto, and witness just some of the new additions at CES, when so much is spent and flogged to prevent the use of any smart phone or similar device while driving. Scratching head here wondering where the logic went…


----------



## Macfury

Yep. Hot, cold or wet, touch screens can quickly become inoperable. That's why they outlawed thermal touch controls in elevators--inoperable in a fire.


----------



## FeXL

Another negative?

An Inconvenient truth: Electric-car battery materials could harm key soil bacteria



> The growing popularity of battery-powered cars could help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but they are not entirely Earth friendly. Problems can creep in when these batteries are disposed of. Scientists, in a new study in ACS’ journal Chemistry of Materials, are reporting that compounds increasingly used in lithium-ion batteries are toxic to a type of soil-dwelling bacteria that plays an important environmental role.


----------



## FeXL

Definitely a negative.

Amnesty Report: Green Battery Technology Built on a Foundation of Child Abuse



> Amnesty International has released a shocking report, about conditions in the Democratic Republic of Congo, and the child labourers who mine much of the world’s Cobalt. Cobalt is an essential component of modern high capacity batteries, such as the batteries which power laptops, cell phones and electric cars.


Child Abuse!!! Where's the hue & the cry from the left?


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Child Abuse!!! Where's the hue & the cry from the left?


You wouldn't hear the "Left" if it were turned to 10 on the dial. 

This isn't an indictment of green technologies. Most of your technology, clothing, trinkets... all products of child abuse to one degree or another.

What it is, is an indictment of _capitalism_.


----------



## FeXL

I shred your arguments here on a regular basis...



CubaMark said:


> You wouldn't hear the "Left" if it were turned to 10 on the dial.


Oh, so we should make an ad promoting green technology using child labour. As to the rest, you're OK with that?



CubaMark said:


> This isn't an indictment of green technologies. Most of your technology, clothing, trinkets... all products of child abuse to one degree or another.


Ah, yes, that evil free enterprise system that the world runs on. Nasty...



CubaMark said:


> What it is, is an indictment of _capitalism_.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> What it is, is an indictment of _capitalism_.


These should be made by political prisoners in Cuba or on some gulag.


----------



## FeXL

So, nothing says you've "arrived" quite like that shiny, new, gov't subsidized, coal-burning electric car. Unfortunately, long before you get to your destination, you find yourself somewhat short of coal power.

What to do, what to do. It's a real beard pullin', chin scratchin' situation.

But, wait! To the rescue! TA-DA!!! Enter your very own, shiny, fossil fuel powered genset, mounted on a trailer for easy pulling behind your new car!!! Complete with extension cord & chrome wheels!!!

Stupidity signalling

In a word?



> Speechless.


Yep...

EP Tender

Remember. These are _solutions..._


----------



## FeXL

Guess my 'Burb is more efficient, too. That'll 'splode some heads...

The Dirty Little Secret about All-Electric Vehicles



> Yes, my friends, the all-electric vehicle is only 13.7% efficient. The pollution and carbon emissions are simply moved from the tailpipe to the smokestack.
> 
> How does that compare with a regular run-of-the-mill internal combustion automobile? According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency the efficiency of a typical car is 14% under city driving condition and close to 26% for ideal highway conditions. *This means that those of us in a tax bracket that precludes buying an all-electric vehicle are polluting less than our neighbors with “Bernie” signs in their yards.*


M'bold.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Guess my 'Burb is more efficient, too. That'll 'splode some heads...
> 
> The Dirty Little Secret about All-Electric Vehicles


Good grief. Someone tell the author of this piece, Dexter Wright, that there's this big yellow ball in the sky that sends us unlimited, free energy for several hours per day.

Not once in his article does he mention solar as a source. He notes hydroelectric and nuclear as "reliable" energy sources. Then he proceeds to base his entire shtick on the dirty sources of energy production. As if hundreds of megawatts of solar and wind plants aren't coming online every single day. As if no progress is being made at all in energy storage and production.

What an odd worldview...


----------



## Macfury

Why mention solar? It's unreliable and contributes very little to the grid.

Energy storage for solar? I would liken it to somebody who decides he wants to deliver water by buckets instead of pipe and then demanding that researchers create larger and lighter buckets. You only need to build storage if you're committed to the inefficiency of solar.



CubaMark said:


> Good grief. Someone tell the author of this piece, Dexter Wright, that there's this big yellow ball in the sky that sends us unlimited, free energy for several hours per day.
> 
> Not once in his article does he mention solar as a source. He notes hydroelectric and nuclear as "reliable" energy sources. Then he proceeds to base his entire shtick on the dirty sources of energy production. As if hundreds of megawatts of solar and wind plants aren't coming online every single day. As if no progress is being made at all in energy storage and production.
> 
> What an odd worldview...


----------



## FeXL

As global economies go bankrupt subsidizing it...



CubaMark said:


> As if no progress is being made at all in energy storage and production.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Why mention solar? It's unreliable and contributes very little to the grid.


There's such a thing as willfully blind to reality...



> The U.S. solar industry continued on its record-breaking trajectory in Q2 2015 with 1,393 megawatts (MW) of installed solar capacity, making this the largest Q2 in history. As has been the case over the last 18 months, the residential and utility-scale markets led the way, installed 463 and 729 MW, respectively.
> 
> *Through the first half of the year, the solar industry has supplied 40% of all new 2015 elecric generating capacity - more than any other energy technology*. With more than 5,000 MW of installed solar capacity projected over the second half of 2015, the U.S. solar industry is expected to reach nearly 8,000 MW for the year, and 28,000 MW in total.


(SEIA)​


> Energy storage for solar? I would liken it to somebody who decides he wants to deliver water by buckets instead of pipe and then demanding that researchers create larger and lighter buckets. You only need to build storage if you're committed to the inefficiency of solar.


Why do we have gas tanks? Why do refineries have large storage facilities for petroleum? Because all energy sources need storage. The coal- and oil-fired power plants need to store their fuel, why is solar different in your mind? What solar offers over other sources of energy is the removal of the mining / drilling / extraction process to harvest the energy. Just throw up an ever-increasingly-efficient power cell and it falls into your lap. No need to have a massive, polluting infrastructure to find it, exploit it, transport it.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Through the first half of the year, the solar industry has supplied 40% of all new 2015 elecric generating capacity - more than any other energy technology.


Yup. Subsidized, impractical and inefficient--yet the government keeps throwing good money after bad.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> As global economies go bankrupt subsidizing it...


Solar efficiency is already at par or more efficient / cost-effective than coal / oil / gas electricity production in many locales. Efficiency is improving daily, and soon investment in the dirty energy sources of old will be seen as the riskier move.

Can you identify any of these "global economies" that will "go bankrupt" subsidizing renewable energy initiatives?


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> Solar efficiency is already at par or more efficient / cost-effective than coal / oil / gas electricity production in many locales. Efficiency is improving daily, and soon investment in the dirty energy sources of old will be seen as the riskier move.


Solar costs far more than oil when you compare all real costs including subsidies.

Stop Subsidizing Solar Power! - The Experts - WSJ



> Then why is solar popular? Huge taxpayer subsidies hide the actual cost. Other renewables receive a subsidy of about one cent per kwh, solar energy receives about 96 cents per kwh. We pay solar’s cost in the form of taxes instead of as electric rates.


----------



## FeXL

Efficiency approaching coal/oil/gas? According to the numbers I found online, coal & oil are around 30% efficient, gas around 45%. Affordable solar is nowhere near. Not for residential & commercial applications. Most solar panels peak around 15% efficiency. There are a few panels with an efficiency higher than that but you won't see them on residential applications and few, if any, commercial applications.

Yes, there are some specialized solar _cells_ that are >40% but you won't see these on any residential or commercial installation.

Cost effective? Yeah, in RhinocerasNuts, Africa and FreezeYourAssOff, Baffin Island. Certainly not near major population densities where fossil fuels, transportation & distribution systems are readily available.

Plus, you still have the added issues & cost of storage & backup.



CubaMark said:


> Solar efficiency is already at par or more efficient / cost-effective than coal / oil / gas electricity production in many locales.


Yeah, and, at an increase of a tenth of a percent a year, it'll only take a couple centuries to get there. 

"Dirty"? In whose mind?



CubaMark said:


> Efficiency is improving daily, and soon investment in the dirty energy sources of old will be seen as the riskier move.


How many hundreds of billions of dollars have been taken from taxpayers to subsidize this scheme of renewables? Enough to fund medium sized countries. Look at what the high cost of electricity in Ontario has done to their economy. Killed it off. The RoC is hot on their heels with this carbon tax BS.

Money that could have been used to drill water wells, cure cancer, eliminate AIDS, kill off malaria, all these things that are currently the scourge of third world nations.



CubaMark said:


> Can you identify any of these "global economies" that will "go bankrupt" subsidizing renewable energy initiatives?


----------



## FeXL

Seeing as you want to talk about things other than energy, by drivin my 'Burb around, I don;t have to deal with this kind of crap, either...

Fraud, assault top list of crimes on TTC buses



> A man aboard the 96 Wilson bus route waves a steak knife in front of a pregnant woman’s stomach before punching her in the head. A public masturbator on the 53 Steeles East line ejaculates on another passenger’s sleeve.


That guy on the 53 East Steeles route would pull his dick out once, just once, in my presence. Lorena Bobbit's got nothing on me...



CubaMark said:


> Good grief.


----------



## SINC

Hmmm, trouble indeed.

Singapore's first Tesla Model S owner hit with $11,000 fine for excessive emissions - TechSpot


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Hmmm, trouble indeed.
> 
> Singapore's first Tesla Model S owner hit with $11,000 fine for excessive emissions - TechSpot


Trouble in that the regulations haven't caught up to the technological reality.

A portion of Tesla's response, from your link:



> ...an electric car like the Model S has almost three times lower CO2 per km than an equivalent gas-powered car. Moreover, as Singapore increases the percentage of grid power from solar and wind, the CO2 from electricity drops with each passing year.
> We are having cooperative discussions with the LTA to ensure a proper understanding of these issues and to make sure that they are correctly testing our customer’s Model S. Based on the positive nature of those discussions, we are confident that this situation will be resolved soon.


----------



## Macfury

I would certainly expect a car manufacturer to challenge the ruling. The question is--is Tesla correct?



CubaMark said:


> Trouble in that the regulations haven't caught up to the technological reality.
> 
> A portion of Tesla's response, from your link:


----------



## CubaMark

*An Airplane Company Could Have Built The Tesla Of The 1950s*








Beechcraft found themselves with a huge loss of orders come 1946, and to fill that hole, they figured that what Americans would really be wanting soon were cars. They weren’t wrong.

... to make something rational, innovative, premium, and unique. They sure as hell managed that, even if it proved to be more expensive than made sense (over their $5000 target price, which was already like two Caddys) and the project was eventually abandoned.

...the Plainsman was a gas/electric hybrid, and even there it was unusual. The car used an air-cooled flat-four engine from Franklin motors—the sort of engine Beechcraft was used to putting in planes...

...This 100 horsepower engine would be used to drive a generator, which in turn would power four electric motors – one at each wheel.

An electric motor for each wheel is very modern-seeming, and what’s even more striking is what those wheels could do. When you braked, the motors reversed polarity to slow the wheels down. Sort of like regenerative braking, but there doesn’t seem to have been any storage battery to fill.

Even more striking is that these four motors were designed to receive power based on which wheels had better grip, which would be like a prehistoric sort of electronic traction control.

If that wasn’t enough, it used an adjustable air-shock suspension system with driver-configurable ride heights thanks to an aircraft-landing-gear-derived setup.

The Plainsman was also designed to come standard with a two-way radio telephone, and even included a gauge to provide instant MPG information.

...The basic drivetrain tech was adapted from diesel-electric locomotives, and that basic tech also allowed the Plainsman to automatically find the most economic level of operation for the gas engine, and it allowed for an early form of cruise control, which seems to have worked by setting the engine to produce a specific wattage from the generator.

The result was a car that could get up to 30 MPG at a steady 60 mph, and could (they claimed) hit speeds of up to 160 mph. With all that electric motor torque available from a dead stop, this thing probably would have accellerated pretty well, too.

...An all-wheel drive hybrid with adjustable air suspension, built-in phone, dynamic MPG meter, regenerative braking, aluminum body, and traction control would sound modern, even advanced, today.

Sadly, it was just a bit too advanced for post-war America, and far too costly. A pair of drivetrain mules and one un-engined styling mockup is all we have left to marvel at and wonder about what could have been.​
(Jalopnik)


----------



## Macfury

It's not particularly beautiful as concept cars of the era often are.


----------



## CubaMark

*Ontario boosts incentives for electric vehicles*

Ontario has announced extra incentives for people who buy or lease electric vehicles that could boost available help to as much as $14,000.

Currently, incentives range from $5,000 to $8,500 per vehicle. The province is increasing that to a range of $6,000 to $10,000 for the purchase or lease of eligible plug-in electric vehicles, 

It will also offer an extra $3,000 incentive for electric vehicles that have larger battery capacities and an additional $1,000 if the vehicle has at least five seats.

The revised incentive program is primarily aimed at the cheaper EVs. For vehicles priced at more than $75,000, the incentive will be capped at $3,000.

The new incentives have the potential to significantly reduce the cost of the less expensive electric vehicles. The Chevrolet Spark EV, for example, starts at $31,745. 

Ontario says transportation emissions account for 35 per cent of greenhouse gas emissions in the province — the single largest source.

There are about 5,800 electric vehicles in Ontario.​
(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

These incentives are idiotic.


----------



## SINC

So, lemme get this straight. Ontario taxpayers, ALL taxpayers are going to supplement the rich who can afford electric cars by 14 grand to buy one?

Oh man, that is rich if you will pardon the pun. Helping the well off by the poor to go green? Yeah, riiiiiiggggghhhhhhtttt!


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> So, lemme get this straight. Ontario taxpayers, ALL taxpayers are going to supplement the rich who can afford electric cars by 14 grand to buy one?
> 
> Oh man, that is rich if you will pardon the pun. Helping the well off by the poor to go green? Yeah, riiiiiiggggghhhhhhtttt!


That's it in a nutshell.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> These incentives are idiotic.


Personally, I would like an electric vehicle but one has to wonder what the emissions are in generating the electricity to charge them. I also wonder about the batteries when they no long hold a charge......seems we only hear one side of the story.


----------



## CubaMark

Rps said:


> Personally, I would like an electric vehicle but one has to wonder what the emissions are in generating the electricity to charge them.


As more and better ways are found to incorporate renewables, this becomes less of an issue. And if you (or your community) install a solar carport, then after the initial, minuscule emissions from the fabrication of the materials, the answer is: zero.



> I also wonder about the batteries when they no long hold a charge......seems we only hear one side of the story.


This fellow has racked up 300,000km on his Chevy Volt and is still going strong - it's his daily drive. That, plus GM's (and Tesla's equivalent) 8-year warranty, would seem to take much of the concern off the table.

*Other bits related to battery life:*

The real costs of keeping a Chevy Volt on the road
What Happens When Your Volt or Ampera Battery Gets Old?
Battery Capacity Loss - Electric Vehicle Wiki
Chevy Volt Batteries Almost 100% Problem-Free
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-lif...will-there-be-a-replacement-plan-of-some-sort
Life With Tesla Model S: Battery Degradation Update
World's Highest Mileage Tesla Model S Hits 120,000 Miles, Still Going Strong - Gas 2
Battery Degradation Level In Tesla Model S Only 5% After 30,000 Miles?


----------



## Macfury

Yes, that is certainly presenting one side of the story.


----------



## Rps

CubaMark my battery concern is with the quantity. Think of how many batteries you personally may have: flashlight, iPad, iPod, cell phone, fire alarms the list goes on and on, now add a electric car batteries, not to mention lead car batteries......batteries are to hidden environmental problem.


----------



## Macfury

I don't think that you could argue that electric cars are worse for the environment than proper cars overall. They're just not the environmental salvation that some people imagine them to be. Also, if electric cars become more popular, there will be an electrical surcharge for these automobiles to make up for lost gas tax revenue.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I don't think that you could argue that electric cars are worse for the environment than proper cars overall. They're just not the environmental salvation that some people imagine them to be. Also, if electric cars become more popular, there will be an electrical surcharge for these automobiles to make up for lost gas tax revenue.


More specifically we will all face big utility increases to cover the cost of expanding the infrastructure.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> More specifically we will all face big utility increases to cover the cost of expanding the infrastructure.


The electricity grid is always being modernized, upgraded, changed. The greatest impact on costs will lie with privately-owned utility companies. Thanks to the idiotic privatization schemes of years past, taxpayers pay ridiculous rates to companies that have cut service to the bone while increasing shareholder payout and providing excessive executive salaries and bonuses.

As I've said on many occasions: essential utilities should never be in the hands of profit-seeking private interests, especially when those private interests have no local stake in the service delivery.


----------



## Rps

CubaMark, Amen to that!


----------



## CubaMark

Latest news at Tesla's Twitter Page

*Tesla Model 3 EV Leaked: Now You See It*








Can’t wait for Tesla to officially reveal its all-new Model 3 this evening? Here’s a preview: a photo on Instagram that seems to show this hugely important EV. While the image is blurry, it’s clear that the Model 3 will occupy a sort of middle ground between the sleek Model S hatchback and the taller Model X crossover.

Tesla won’t pull the covers off the Model 3 until late tonight, but we have heard some tidbits about this new model. It’s rumored to have a starting cost around $35,000 before tax benefits, a bargain compared with the $71,200–$109,200 Model S and the $81,200–$116,700 Model X. Range estimates sit at roughly 200 miles as standard equipment, with a possible 80-kWh battery upgrade potentially increasing that number to 300 miles.​
(Car & Driver)

*Everything We Know About The Tesla Model 3 (Updated)*

The entry-level Tesla Model 3 sedan is .... supposed to transform the electric car into a bit player for the sybaritic and the techno-weirdos into a clean vehicle for the masses. Here’s everything we know.

And also some stuff we can only guess at. But first, the important things.

This story originally ran March 4 and is being republished today on the eve of the Model 3's debut with some new information.

* * *​
The Tesla Model 3 is supposed to officially cost $35,000, but could actually go for as little as $25,000 when you throw in tax rebates, which is damn near Toyota Camry territory.

That price would be for your stripped-out base model, however, so expect a fully loaded one to easily top $40,000 when all is said and done.

* * *​
The Model 3 will compete with the likes of the BMW 3 Series, the Audi A4, the Mercedes C-Class, and the Lexus IS, so it expect it to be a lot like those.​
(Jalopnik)

*Huge lines are forming around the world to order a Tesla Model 3, sight unseen*

We don't know what it looks like. We don't know how far it will go on a charge. We don't even know exactly how much it will cost.

But for all we don't know about the new Tesla Model 3, thousands of Tesla fans know they want it anyway, and are willing to plunk down real money for a car that won't be unveiled until tonight.

Tesla dealerships around the world are taking $1,000 deposits for the car from customers, sight unseen — it's even more impressive considering Tesla isn't expected to begin deliveries of the car until late next year.​
(TheVerge)


----------



## Macfury

You would think it would have a nicer body.


----------



## CubaMark

Rps said:


> CubaMark my battery concern is with the quantity. Think of how many batteries you personally may have: flashlight, iPad, iPod, cell phone, fire alarms the list goes on and on, now add a electric car batteries, not to mention lead car batteries......batteries are to hidden environmental problem.


Rps, here's an article from Wired on precisely that point (*emphasis added*):

_...in every stage of the process, mining has hidden emissions. Jiangxi has it relatively easy because it’s digging up clay, but many mines rely on rock-crushing equipment with astronomical energy bills, as well as coal-fired furnaces for the final baking stages. Those spew a lot of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the process of refining a material destined for your zero-emissions car. In fact, *manufacturing an electric vehicle generates more carbon emissions than building a conventional car, mostly because of its battery*, the Union of Concerned Scientists has found.

“We’re shifting pollution, and in the process we’re hoping that it doesn’t have the environmental impact,” says Abraham. He believes that *when you add all the environmental impacts, they still come out in favor of electric vehicles.* (The Union of Concerned Scientists agrees; it found that *even when you add in emissions from battery manufacturing, EVs generate half the emissions of a conventional car over the course of its life*.) Still, consumers and investors should understand what it takes to make the materials that enable their green choices. “I don’t think there’s been much discussion of that,” Abraham says. “We can’t look at mining as an over-there thing and at Tesla as an over-here thing. They’re intricately linked.”_​
What no-one discusses, and yet seems obvious to anyone who has even had a cursory look at the activities of mining companies around the world (and Canadian mining companies are among the worst), is how much of these negative environmental, social, etc., impacts could be mitigated with more stringent oversight and enforced standards, something these companies have been very effective in avoiding (via bribes, intimidation and even outright murder) over the past several decades.


----------



## CubaMark

*This is Tesla’s Model 3*










Here’s what we know so far:

Base model will do 0-60 in under 6, with versions that go much much faster.
Base will be at least 215 miles per charge, and Elon said that “these are minimum numbers, we hope to exceed them”.
All model 3s will have autopilot hardware.
Like the model S, it will have front and rear trunks.
All Model 3s will come with supercharging standard.
The roof area is “one continuous pane of glass”.
Deliveries will begin at the end of next year, and start at $35,000.
In addition to these Model 3 details, Elon committed Tesla to doubling the number of public superchargers from 3600 to 7200.

























(Techcrunch)


----------



## Macfury

That's a really uninspired looking car, Elon.


----------



## SINC

I yearn for the days when cars had individual styling instead of the cookie cutter world of look alikes and copy cat designs the market is now flooded with for the past decade.


----------



## Macfury

If it weren't for the letter "T" I wouldn't know which company had made it.


----------



## wonderings

I don't care much about the outside of the car, it is the inside that matters to me as that is what I see and hopefully enjoy while driving. I do like the outside of the Model 3 as well though, think it is a sleek looking car. I am not sure why they are announcing it 2 years down the road though, that seems strange to me for a car that is tech heavy. How much will change in the next 2 years, will this feel out of date when it is finally released or will they still do updates and upgrades if new battery tech comes out in that time before release. I also wonder what Tesla is going to do about charging stations, as demand grows so will the need for more charging locations, and with a 30 min wait those places will fill up quick. I wonder if any of the big Gas chains are going to see some sort of money making opportunity here and put stations at all their locations and somehow charge for a charge.


----------



## macintosh doctor

finally, an automotive company that understands what the masses want..
build it and they will come.
truly Tesla is awe-inspiring. 
I am glad that Tesla is able to show - GM, Nissan, Toyota - that you can build a product that doesn't frighten the kids when you look at it. plus tech specs to match. 
The price is spot on.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I am not sure why they are announcing it 2 years down the road though...


Because they want to collect cash deposits now. You can only go so far on government handouts.


----------



## eMacMan

Looks like everything is touchscreen. Won't work for me for two reasons. First: You have to take your eyes off the road to find the right point to touch. An idiotic idea to begin with. Second: Touch screens generally do not consistently respond to my touch. They often require a solid poke, which is then sometimes mistranslated to be a double touch, the second cancelling the first.

Sorry but I need the tactile feel of knobs and buttons. May not be the latest and greatest but they have the advantage of working, even if the sun is shining on them or you need to maintain concentration, as it's twilight time and deer or moose may be lurking in the bar ditch.


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> Looks like everything is touchscreen. Won't work for me for two reasons. First: You have to take your eyes off the road to find the right point to touch. An idiotic idea to begin with. Second: Touch screens generally do not consistently respond to my touch. They often require a solid poke, which is then sometimes mistranslated to be a double touch, the second cancelling the first.
> 
> Sorry but I need the tactile feel of knobs and buttons. May not be the latest and greatest but they have the advantage of working, even if the sun is shining on them or you need to maintain concentration, as it's twilight time and deer or moose may be lurking in the bar ditch.


I may be wrong on this, but I believe everything is voice controlled, from volume to temperature


----------



## Macfury

They have to get that guy who did the voice for KITT to record some talkback.


----------



## pm-r

wonderings said:


> I may be wrong on this, but I believe everything is voice controlled, from volume to temperature




I sure hope they have improved things and made it easier to use…

_Voice Command Reference?_

"_Has anyone got a table of the commands that work? …_"
https://forums.teslamotors.com/en_CA/forum/forums/voice-command-reference

Just like the touch stuff, I'll take and stick with knobs thanks. They work, especially when properly designed. But not the stupid "human" kind of knobs….


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> I yearn for the days when cars had individual styling instead of the cookie cutter world of look alikes and copy cat designs the market is now flooded with for the past decade.


I agree completely.

Wouldn't it be grand if someone would license the designs of yesteryear (required? no expiry on patent or whatever for cars from '40s / '50s / '60s ?), with modern lightweight materials underneath and today's technology?

I know the vast majority weren't exactly "slippery" in their CoD for fuel economy's sake, but properly marketed and with a big enough battery under the floor, they'd still be perfect for urban use where most daily trips are in the low tens of kilometres...


*Autobianchi Bianchina*


*1965 Honda S600*


*1950 Saab Mulling 92*


*1948 Tucker Torpedo*


*1960 Henney Kilowatt Electric Car*
_(Top speed of 60mph and a range of 97km!!!)_
​
Mind you, a little more retro-modern styling would also be nice - like Honda's S660 Concept car:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.




​


----------



## wonderings

pm-r said:


> I sure hope they have improved things and made it easier to use…
> 
> _Voice Command Reference?_
> 
> "_Has anyone got a table of the commands that work? …_"
> https://forums.teslamotors.com/en_CA/forum/forums/voice-command-reference
> 
> Just like the touch stuff, I'll take and stick with knobs thanks. They work, especially when properly designed. But not the stupid "human" kind of knobs….


Have no experience myself, I was just assuming. I know the voice recognition in my Subaru Outback is terrible, I gave up even trying to use it to make calls. I just thought such a high tech car would have some of the simple things down like changing temperature with your voice.

I won't be in the market for a new car for at least 5 years, I will definitely be looking at Tesla though when I am. I think they are stunning cars and love features they are adding... if they work. Hope they have a plan for charging stations when their sales increase.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I agree completely.


If that Saab were electric only, I'd buy it.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> I may be wrong on this, but I believe everything is voice controlled, from volume to temperature


Again voice control seems like a great idea on Star Trek, but do you really want to drive blind until the wipers kick in on the third try?


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> Again voice control seems like a great idea on Star Trek, but do you really want to drive blind until the wipers kick in on the third try?


Well I would assume they put the controls for blinkers and wipers just like any other car. Everything else is controlled where your dash would be, i.e. music, temperature, nav, etc. 

This is a picture of the interior of a different model Tesla. I doubt they would change the basics for blinkers and windshield wipers to voice controls or even touch controlled on the giant touch screen


----------



## SINC

All such tech should be outlawed in new cars. They should be functional driving machines, period. Shielded from cell signals with no internet available while the engine is running, full stop. Easy way to stop distracted driving. And much safer for us all. Might even encourage a wee bit of family time disconnected from the crap.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> Well I would assume they put the controls for blinkers and wipers just like any other car. Everything else is controlled where your dash would be, i.e. music, temperature, nav, etc.
> 
> This is a picture of the interior of a different model Tesla. I doubt they would change the basics for blinkers and windshield wipers to voice controls or even touch controlled on the giant touch screen


I lightened the shadows on yours and the earlier photo that showed the steering column from the right side. No sign of a conventional wiper switch. Can't tell if there is a sane switch for the headlights but that is most likely part of the signal switch. Not a deal breaker for me but no sign of a conventional cruise control switch either. Whatever physical buttons are in the screen area would be difficult to sort from their neighbour without taking your eyes off the road. There are conventional audio controls on the steering wheel, but the radio is quite low on my list of things requiring ease of control. Heater, defrosters, and air re-circulation controls rank very high.

What I am looking for in any car is complete control without distraction. Neither voice control nor touchscreen meet this crucial requirement.


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> I lightened the shadows on yours and the earlier photo that showed the steering column from the right side. No sign of a conventional wiper switch. Can't tell if there is a sane switch for the headlights but that is most likely part of the signal switch. Not a deal breaker for me but no sign of a conventional cruise control switch either. Whatever physical buttons are in the screen area would be difficult to sort from their neighbour without taking your eyes off the road. There are conventional audio controls on the steering wheel, but the radio is quite low on my list of things requiring ease of control. Heater, defrosters, and air re-circulation controls rank very high.
> 
> What I am looking for in any car is complete control without distraction. Neither voice control nor touchscreen meet this crucial requirement.


I found a manual for one of the Tesla cars, I would imagine it is pretty universal for the product line


So wipers are where they should, cruise is there, not on a touch screen. Looks like the AC and defrost settings are at the bottom of the screen. It is certainly not for everyone. Like you I think wipers are an essential tool for driving and need to my physical and well, where they are in every other car. Would be a big faux pas to do that any differently.


----------



## eMacMan

Headlights, signals and wipers on the same stick, is not at all conventional. Nor would I call it desirable. Typically pulling back on the headlight switch is the panic bar to hit brights, the same action on a wiper switch turns on the washers. People often drive different vehicles, so crucial controls should be as consistent as possible. One thing you do not want to do, is blind an oncoming driver while trying to wash mud off your own windshield. 

If this is the only car you drive, fine and dandy. If you routinely drive two or three vehicles, or allow someone not familiar with the controls to drive yours, not so great. BTW Seems to me if you own a Tesla there are going to be a lot of friends and cousins that are going to want to take it for a spin. I am sure at least one of them would be willing to buy you a beer or four in order to facilitate that request.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> You would think it would have a nicer body.


There is a reason for all airplanes being the same shape. The same principle applies to cars. Who cares what a car looks like when we are so much more knowledgable now and the essential issues are increased energy efficiency and minimal pollution. The rest is fluff.


----------



## Macfury

jef said:


> There is a reason for all airplanes being the same shape. The same principle applies to cars. Who cares what a car looks like when we are so much more knowledgable now and the essential issues are increased energy efficiency and minimal pollution. The rest is fluff.


That's only true in a limited sense--as it is for airplanes, which feature a wide variety of designs, despite requiring wings and a tail. There's no reason for the Tesla to look that dull. You are speaking only for yourself. I care what my car looks like and the possibility of slightly reduced pollution does not make up for the lack of creativity in design.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> That's only true in a limited sense--as it is for airplanes, which feature a wide variety of designs, despite requiring wings and a tail. There's no reason for the Tesla to look that dull. You are speaking only for yourself. I care what my car looks like and the possibility of slightly reduced pollution does not make up for the lack of creativity in design.


Why would you care what your car looks like? You didn't design or make it - why should you relate to, or want to be credited for, something that you simply purchase. It has no "you" in it at all.


----------



## Macfury

What could I have been I thinking? May as well buy an ugly ****box now. Thanks for setting me straight, jef!



jef said:


> Why would you care what your car looks like? You didn't design or make it - why should you relate to, or want to be credited for, something that you simply purchase. It has no "you" in it at all.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> What could I have been I thinking? May as well buy an ugly ****box now. Thanks for setting me straight, jef!


Exactly - because whatever ****box you are driving now, it has no relationship with "you" except that you bought it- that is all you did. 

When you are on the road, there are only drivers that are good or bad or assholes. The car doesn't matter.


----------



## Macfury

Ford, Hyundai, GM, BMW--all ridiculous constructs. May as well have only one brand of car!


----------



## SINC

jef said:


> Why would you care what your car looks like? You didn't design or make it - why should you relate to, or want to be credited for, something that you simply purchase. It has no "you" in it at all.


How wrong people can be. The car is, and always has been, an art form. 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## wonderings

eMacMan said:


> Headlights, signals and wipers on the same stick, is not at all conventional. Nor would I call it desirable. Typically pulling back on the headlight switch is the panic bar to hit brights, the same action on a wiper switch turns on the washers. People often drive different vehicles, so crucial controls should be as consistent as possible. One thing you do not want to do, is blind an oncoming driver while trying to wash mud off your own windshield.
> 
> If this is the only car you drive, fine and dandy. If you routinely drive two or three vehicles, or allow someone not familiar with the controls to drive yours, not so great. BTW Seems to me if you own a Tesla there are going to be a lot of friends and cousins that are going to want to take it for a spin. I am sure at least one of them would be willing to buy you a beer or four in order to facilitate that request.


Well my fathers Chevy Traverse has it that way and I have no trouble adjusting from the layout of my Outback. Modern cars all have auto lights, so they adjust on their own. High beam is a quick pull of the stick like normal and to send some washer fluid on the window you push a button on the end. Not sure how common this is in their lineup. If you really cannot adjust that easily to a different layout then obviously this is not that car for you, nor any other model that may deviate slightly. I know for me I have no problem adjusting, same with motorcycles and different layouts of high beams, turn signals and the rest.


----------



## jef

SINC said:


> How wrong people can be. The car is, and always has been, an art form.


Art is very subjective.









Beautiful design hides the downside of cars and misdirects attention away from the carnage on the roads and the health and environmental problems they create. Lipstick on a pig comes to mind. If the amount of money that has been spent making cars look good was spent on safety and efficiency, they would look a lot cooler to me.


----------



## wonderings

jef said:


> Art is very subjective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful design hides the downside of cars and misdirects attention away from the carnage on the roads and the health and environmental problems they create. Lipstick on a pig comes to mind. If the amount of money that has been spent making cars look good was spent on safety and efficiency, they would look a lot cooler to me.


I agree. I prefer the design of modern cars with modern technology that improve everything from handling to safety. THAT is art to me. I think the Tesla cars are the most beautiful cars inside and out on the market, but that is just my opinion. A blend of design and features.


----------



## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I think the Tesla cars are the most beautiful cars inside and out on the market, but that is just my opinion. A blend of design and features.


That is why the car market is so amazing. It provides different visions of beauty to the buyer.


----------



## eMacMan

wonderings said:


> Well my fathers Chevy Traverse has it that way and I have no trouble adjusting from the layout of my Outback. Modern cars all have auto lights, so they adjust on their own. High beam is a quick pull of the stick like normal and to send some washer fluid on the window you push a button on the end. Not sure how common this is in their lineup. If you really cannot adjust that easily to a different layout then obviously this is not that car for you, nor any other model that may deviate slightly. I know for me I have no problem adjusting, same with motorcycles and different layouts of high beams, turn signals and the rest.


The more functions a switch serves, the more likely it is to fail and the more expensive it is to replace. That said another deal killer for me is the power windows. While having your car sink into a body of water is fairly unlikely, it is still more likely than being attacked by terrorists or even than being hit by a bolt of lightning. Hit the drink>battery shorts>Windows locked up>exit becomes far more difficult.

Can't justify poor switch design by citing GM. GMs also have had an ignition switch with the off position between accessory and on. Doesn't sound like a big deal unless the throttle sticks. In most cars you just switch to accessory. This kills the engine, but leaves steering intact. If off is between the two you can't get to accessory because vehicle has to be in park and the steering is locked when you go to off. 

FWIW one of my Toys combines rear wipers/washers and front wiper/washer controls on the same stick. Can distract you at times when distractions are not welcome.


----------



## Macfury

Any time I get a rental car I wind up sitting in it for five or more minutes, just to ensure I understand all of the controls. I recently got into a Subaru with a lot of touch screen controls and it took me 10 minutes to figure out the sequence for starting the car!


----------



## CubaMark

*Electric car sales seem poised for big jump: Can our grid take the load?*








Canada has nearly 20,000 plug-in vehicles on its roads and counting. If provinces achieve their targets, as part of the broader effort to cut greenhouse gas emissions, there will be more than 500,000 electric passenger cars on the road come 2020.

* * *​
Can the country's electricity systems handle the added load?

"We started looking at this quite early on, as far back as 2007," Tsang said of BC Hydro's efforts.

One study by the University of Victoria's Pacific Institute for Climate Solutions found that even in winter, when electricity demand is highest, B.C. had the unused capacity on its grid to charge nearly 2.4 million light-duty vehicles — almost all the 2.8 million registered vehicles in the province.

"Even the most optimistic projections of electric vehicle adoption still represent a really gradual load growth on utilities' grids," Tsang said. "So in terms of generation and transmission, that large perspective, most utilities wouldn't have any problem meeting that demand."

Hydro-Québec calculated that an electric car would use about the same amount of energy in an average year as a hot-water heater, and is just as confident about its ability to meet overall electricity needs.

"We did our homework and we could easily, in Quebec, welcome a million electric vehicles without having to make any major investments in our infrastructure or systems," spokesman Louis-Olivier Batty said.

"It would be two to three per cent of electricity sales in the province."

A million electric vehicles would also be 10 times Quebec's already ambitious goal of having 100,000 such cars on its roads by 2020 — in other words, from a generating and transmission standpoint, the province has nothing to fret over.

* * *​
And what if an entire street of residents bought electric cars and plugged them in to charge at the same time?

The scenario isn't as unlikely as it might sound. Hybrid-electric cars already tend to cluster within certain neighbourhoods. Plug-in electric cars are expected to do the same as neighbours see each other getting new cars, talk about the benefits of not having to fill up at the pumps, and sell each other on the idea of electric transport.

The problem is that the neighbourhood transformers that convert electricity to the right voltage before it enters people's homes aren't designed for the kind of load created by a number of cars all drawing large amounts of power from the grid at the same time, and they may fail, causing neighbourhood power outages.

Already areas like downtown Toronto have trouble meeting local demand for electricity, according to the Toronto Atmospheric Fund, the city government's climate agency.

"The system will have problems if everyone starts plugging in electric vehicles," said Julia Langer, the organization's CEO.

"We don't have any spare electricity, and … for a bunch of reasons that has to do with transformer capacity. They're really ancient."

* * *​
Ultimately, electricity providers will almost certainly have to upgrade their local equipment in some cases, said Chuck Farmer, director of conservation and demand planning for Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator, which operates the province's electricity market.  

"There are going to be new transformers needed. Most local utilities we talk to are cognizant of this trend," Farmer said.

But BC Hydro's Tsang and Hydro-Québec's Batty are confident their companies can predict and manage the added load.​
(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

However, electric car sales aren't actually poised for a big jump, so no worry.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> However, electric car sales aren't actually poised for a big jump, so no worry.





> The new Tesla Model 3, which the company is hoping to roll out in late 2017, already has 320,000 pre-orders, and is just one of dozens of electric cars that will hit the market.


yep... nobody wants those things... nobody....


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> yep... nobody wants those things... nobody....


That's around the world, CM. It's a blip in the car sales market--and I won't count on it until Musk delivers those cars.


----------



## heavyall

I recently mapped out the places I most often drive to on the Tesla website charger map. Literally no overlap whatsoever. Then I checked what the charging times were if there were stations available. Still 75 minutes at a supercharger, and many hours at a regular one. Maybe that will change by the time the Model 3 gets delivered, but even if I REALLY wanted one, it would be useless to me right now. Unless things change substantially, the people who take delivery of all those Teslas that were just ordered are going to be pretty angry.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> .... Unless things change substantially, the people who take delivery of all those Teslas that were just ordered are going to be pretty angry.


Well, I'm sure there are many 1%-ers who can throw cash at Tesla like they were buying tacos, but I have little doubt that most of the people who have reserved a Model 3 are sufficiently well-informed and have performed due consideration around their driving needs to ensure that whatever charging mechanism is in place or will most likely be in place, will in fact serve those needs. If not, they'll have to accommodate to the technological reality.


----------



## jef

heavyall said:


> I recently mapped out the places I most often drive to on the Tesla website charger map. Literally no overlap whatsoever. Then I checked what the charging times were if there were stations available. Still 75 minutes at a supercharger, and many hours at a regular one. Maybe that will change by the time the Model 3 gets delivered, but even if I REALLY wanted one, it would be useless to me right now. Unless things change substantially, the people who take delivery of all those Teslas that were just ordered are going to be pretty angry.


I think you miss the point about charging and how rarely you need to charge away from your home. My wife and I have had an electric car for 20 months now and just hit 30,000 gas-free kms on the odometer. We have never run out of power and we have used charging stations only a few times since we got the car. The car is charged overnight in our driveway so every day, we leave with a "full tank". 

Our electric car gets about 120kms to a full charge in summer and about 85 to 90kms on the coldest days in winter. Commuting in the car for my wife is about 30kms round trip so there is no issue with range. We have taken it on longer weekend drives where we have used public and/or commercial chargers - but not for hours to fully charge it, just to top up while we have lunch or a coffee so we can extend the range a bit. No hassle, no worries. It just works. 

Based on the extremely positive experience we have had with our first electric car, as soon as longer range models are available, like the Tesla 3 and the GM Bolt, I will be able to trade in our Prius that I use for work and longer trips to Muskoka etc. There will be no range issues and I certainly won't be angry passing every gas station!


----------



## heavyall

CubaMark said:


> I have little doubt that most of the people who have reserved a Model 3 are sufficiently well-informed and have performed due consideration around their driving needs to ensure that whatever charging mechanism is in place or will most likely be in place, will in fact serve those needs. If not, they'll have to accommodate to the technological reality.


It really depends on where they live. In the southern US, they'll be fine in most places. Here in the prairies, they'd be hooped.

There are a few Teslas here in Winnipeg. That's an expensive grocery getter!


----------



## heavyall

jef said:


> I think you miss the point about charging and how rarely you need to charge away from your home.


I think you misread the point of my post. Yeah, you can charge at home. They work for short distances. I'm taking about everywhere I drive out of town. All those trips across the prairies with no chargers for hundreds of miles. So now you need two cars even more than you did before -- not cost efficient and not exactly "green". 

Even if the chargers were there -- 120km range? How long to charge a fully depleted battery to full charge on your car?


----------



## jef

heavyall said:


> I think you misread the point of my post. Yeah, you can charge at home. They work for short distances. I'm taking about everywhere I drive out of town. All those trips across the prairies with no chargers for hundreds of miles. So now you need two cars even more than you did before -- not cost efficient and not exactly "green".
> 
> Even if the chargers were there -- 120km range? How long to charge a fully depleted battery to full charge on your car?


120kms range - even 80kms range is enough for my wife to drive to work and back, buzz around town and get groceries etc. It is extremely rare it gets to below 20% because the charger is ready to plug in whenever it's in the driveway. We have a Level II charger (240v) so it takes about 3.5 hours to charge from 0 to 100%. Normally, if it is used during the day, all it needs is a quick top up and we can use it again in the evening. It does most of it's charging while we are sleeping so it's not something we ever have to wait for.

I understand that your conditions in the prairies might not work for you - yet. But for the majority of Canadians, even a short range car will work for most needs. For my work, I am on call, and sometimes will put 200kms or more on my car at any time so I do need to wait for the next round of cars with greater range before I can go off gas completely. Even if I had a range of 200kms, a quick top up at a Timmies charger or over lunch would be enough to cover my daily needs.

You should look at plugshare.com for a map of available chargers other than Tesla. We have used these a few times but we don't rely on them often. 

We have always had two cars since we both work- now we have one electric and one hybrid - the hybrid will soon be replaced by another electric. We are getting there.

As a second car, ours has exceeded all of our expectations and the future looks even better without gas at all.


----------



## Macfury

Even 200K would be completely inadequate for me. I would be running out of juice constantly. It might be OK for people with pedestrian driving habits.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> Even 200K would be completely inadequate for me. I would be running out of juice constantly. It might be OK for people with pedestrian driving habits.


The Tesla 3 and the Bolt are promising 200 miles (320kms). This is just the beginning.


----------



## Macfury

200 miles would be just inside the acceptable range.


----------



## heavyall

jef said:


> 120kms range - even 80kms range is enough for my wife to drive to work and back, buzz around town and get groceries etc. It is extremely rare it gets to below 20% because the charger is ready to plug in whenever it's in the driveway. We have a Level II charger (240v) so it takes about 3.5 hours to charge from 0 to 100%.


So 3.5 hrs of charging for every one hour of driving. My regular 6 hr trips are now 27 hrs each way. That's actually much worse than I was thinking.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> So 3.5 hrs of charging for every one hour of driving. My regular 6 hr trips are now 27 hrs each way. That's actually much worse than I was thinking.


These are really for people who are choosing between a bicycle and a car it seems.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> These are really for people who are choosing between a bicycle and a car it seems.


Yeah. cars for people who literally do not need one.

When I was saying before that I thought that the technology needs to improve more before it is ready for prime time, I was was under the false impression that it had already improved much more than it has.


----------



## CubaMark

*Orders for lower-priced Tesla reach 325,000*

Tesla Motors says worldwide orders for its new lower-priced Model 3 electric car have hit *325,000*.

CEO Elon Musk says on Twitter Thursday that the number is still rising.

Customers must put down $1,000 to order the cars, which start at $35,000 and have a range of 215 miles per charge. The deposits are refundable.

The Palo Alto, California, company started taking orders March 31, shortly before Musk unveiled the car in Los Angeles. It's not scheduled to go on sale until late next year.

The number of orders is unprecedented when compared with electric car sales worldwide. *Nissan says it has sold 211,000 electric Leafs since distribution began in late 2010*. Tesla has sold a total of 110,000 electric cars since it started doing business in 2008.​
(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

It's only unprecedented because sales of other cars have been so dismal.

I can only imagine that Tesla is strapped for hard cash if they're going this route for pre-orders. Nice way to rack up $325 million.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> It's only unprecedented because sales of other cars have been so dismal.
> 
> I can only imagine that Tesla is strapped for hard cash if they're going this route for pre-orders. Nice way to rack up $325 million.


I agree. Having been in the auto mfg business for 30 years, this is a PR move. It will be years before they can meet that amount of units.


----------



## CubaMark

*Two-thirds of new cars in Norway last month were hybrid or electric*








Norway is a case study in the effectiveness of electric-car incentives.

The Scandinavian country is known as the friendliest place in the world for electric cars, thanks to generous financial incentives and other perks.

So while electric and hybrid cars continue to make up a small fraction of new-car sales in other countries, they account for a much larger percentage in Norway.

In fact electric cars, along with hybrids and plug-in hybrids, made up roughly 60 percent of car registrations in Norway last month, according to figures published by Dinside Motor.

New-car totals for March included 2,595 battery-electric car, 2,042 plug-in hybrid, and 3,396 hybrid registrations.

* * *​
That adds up to 8,498 registrations for all three categories, compared against 13,875 total registrations in March that works out to 61.2 percent.

Electric cars and plug-in hybrids alone accounted for 5,102 registrations, or 36.7 percent of the total.

The Nissan Leaf was also the third-bestselling car in Norway last month, with 676 registrations.

* * *​
This level of consumer enthusiasm is enabled by a generous array of incentives.

There is no road tax (or registration fee) for electric cars, no sales tax, no value-added tax, and the corporate-car tax is lower.

Electric cars also get free public parking, free public charging, free ferry transport, and are exempt from tolls on roads, bridges, and tunnels.

They can also travel in restricted bus lanes, although this is expected to be rolled back due to traffic issues.​
(Green Car Reports)


----------



## Macfury

How is it a success story for the Norwegian government to pay people to buy that product? They would buy whatever was heavily subsidized.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> It's only unprecedented because sales of other cars have been so dismal.
> 
> I can only imagine that Tesla is strapped for hard cash if they're going this route for pre-orders. Nice way to rack up $325 million.



Tesla is in huge financial trouble by any normal company's standards. They lose money on every $100K car they sell. it's hard to imagine they figured out how to make money at $35K -- 'sell it at a loss and make it up on volume'?? 

Musk though, has enough money that this probably doesn't matter. He's more interested in getting the product into people's hands than making money at it. Expensive hobby.

It will be interesting to watch the roll out. He's just pre-sold a production run that is three times larger than the total number of cars that Tesla has produced in their entire existence as a company combined. They already have reliability concerns when they were being carefully built one at a time. How are they going to ramp up to mass production while improving the QA at the same time? 

One advantage they do have over other mfrs is the established "you'll get it when you get it" delivery deadlines. That car you ordered might come out in a year, probably closer to four years, but might even be more than that -- and people already expect that. You can get away with that if you're a "Kickstarter" level startup, but no other company providing any other product could operate at scale with that kind of attitude. It's not something that can cross over so that Nissan and Chevy can think they can do it too.


----------



## vancouverdave

Maybe he hopes to get into the electric fuel business. Like: give a way the cameras and sell the film (hey, it worked for a while ...  )


----------



## heavyall

vancouverdave said:


> Maybe he hopes to get into the electric fuel business. Like: give a way the cameras and sell the film (hey, it worked for a while ...  )


Paid attention to the cost of razor blades lately? That business model is alive and well.


----------



## SINC

heavyall said:


> Paid attention to the cost of razor blades lately? That business model is alive and well.


Not sure what you mean by that, but Harry's has changed the face of shaving if you will pardon the pun.


----------



## heavyall

SINC said:


> Not sure what you mean by that, but Harry's has changed the face of shaving if you will pardon the pun.


Sure. There are ways around it ( I use Dollar Shave Club). I'm talking about the dominant retail model for razors -- they want to get you to spend $30 to $50 a pop just to buy in enough volume to get the price under $5 per cartridge. 

Of course by "they", I mean Gillette. It's always amazed me that one of the second tier brands hasn't pulled a "Harry's" or "Dollar Shave Club" at the retail level.


----------



## eMacMan

Have stubbornly stuck to the "T" style, AKA Gillette safety razor I inherited from my Grandad. Blades are still about a buck apiece but getting very hard to find. Five double sided edged fit in a small dispenser. I get about 2 months out of each blade, but those who need to insist on the daily shave ritual would be closer to 30 days.


----------



## FeXL

With cheaper gas, the guzzler is making a comeback

Just a few salient quotes:



> The steady improvement in fuel economy in the Canadian vehicle fleet has ground to a halt amid the drop in gasoline prices and the surge in popularity of crossovers and pickup trucks.
> 
> ...
> 
> Full-sized pickup trucks represented 18.5 per cent of Canadian vehicle sales in March, compared with the long-time average of about 15 per cent.
> 
> ...
> 
> Sales of subcompact cars have hit the skids. They fell 16 per cent in the first two months of 2016 from year-earlier levels.
> 
> Sales of fuel-sipping hybrid vehicles have fallen by 8,000 units in the past three years, Mr. DesRosiers said, and *Canadians buy about 3,000 electric vehicles a year in an overall market that hit 1.89 million vehicles last year.*


M'bold.

Finally:



> *The infatuation governments have for electric vehicles and hybrids is “highly misplaced*,” he said. “A better strategy would be to get consumers to buy a new vehicle and get their old vehicle off the road.”
> 
> Vehicles more than 10 years old are at least 20 per cent less fuel-efficient than new or redesigned versions of the same vehicle, he said.


M'bold.



CubaMark said:


> *Two-thirds of new cars in Norway last month were hybrid or electric*


----------



## eMacMan

I always laugh at that get the old cars off the road.

We have a few seniors in our local that are driving 30-40 year old Detroit Irons. Horrid miles per gallon. However consider they seldom put more than 5000 KMs per year on them. Any fuel savings would be more than offset by the manufacture of a new vehicle.

Both of my vehicles are over 10 years old. The mileage of my subcompact is at least as good as anything being claimed by the newbies. The mini-van consistently delivers over 25 MPG (US). I might do better but it would take a very long time for the mileage savings to cover the $25,000 replacement cost.


----------



## FeXL

Not a surprise if you've been paying attention...

Surprise! Electric Vehicles Worse for the Environment than Fossil Fuel Burning Cars!



> A study from the University of Edinburgh shows that electric and hybrid vehicles emit as many, if not more, atmospheric toxins than fossil fuel burning vehicles.
> 
> The study, conducted by Victor Timmers and Peter Achten at the University of Edinburgh, and published by the journal Atmospheric Environment, found that heavier electric vehicles produce as many pollutants as their lighter weight conventional vehicles.


----------



## vancouverdave

Not sure about the particulate matter from the break pads. I thought the Prius didn't normally use break pads. 

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/toyotas-prius-the-debate-continues/?_r=0




FeXL said:


> Not a surprise if you've been paying attention...
> 
> 
> 
> Surprise! Electric Vehicles Worse for the Environment than Fossil Fuel Burning Cars!


----------



## eMacMan

Hybrids and all electric are tending to go almost all in for regenerative braking. Can extend range in stop and go city traffic, insignificant on the highway.

Pads would be mainly used at low speeds so should not shed much dust in that scenario.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, with the study you quote I am wondering if they also include the impact of electric generation? There is no such thing as clean electricity, somewhere in the production chain lie environmental issues. Not to mention the strain on the grid of the increased usage, and if you read Ontario's green plan it will make matters worse.

The real environmental issue with electric vehicles is their battery.......think of everything we use today that uses a battery....now add cars to that. Nightmare in the making.....


----------



## eMacMan

Rps said:


> FeXL, with the study you quote I am wondering if they also include the impact of electric generation? There is no such thing as clean electricity, somewhere in the production chain lie environmental issues. Not to mention the strain on the grid of the increased usage, and if you read Ontario's green plan it will make matters worse.
> 
> The real environmental issue with electric vehicles is their battery.......think of everything we use today that uses a battery....now add cars to that. Nightmare in the making.....


That is of course the real danger of prioritizing CO2 emissions as the ultimate environmental villain. We lose track of and even ignore other far more dangerous threats to the environment. I still have trouble wrapping my brain around Greenie Wienies promoting GE style nuclear fission as clean energy. Even the now beloved hydro plants come with huge environmental costs.


----------



## heavyall

eMacMan said:


> I always laugh at that get the old cars off the road.
> 
> We have a few seniors in our local that are driving 30-40 year old Detroit Irons. Horrid miles per gallon. However consider they seldom put more than 5000 KMs per year on them. Any fuel savings would be more than offset by the manufacture of a new vehicle.
> 
> Both of my vehicles are over 10 years old. The mileage of my subcompact is at least as good as anything being claimed by the newbies. The mini-van consistently delivers over 25 MPG (US). I might do better but it would take a very long time for the mileage savings to cover the $25,000 replacement cost.


I hear that. My Jeep is over 13 yrs old, has 225,000 kms on it, and the only thing that has me even remotely considering when I might replace it is that the rust is starting to become a concern. Mechanically the vehicle is sound, it's fantastic on the highway, and extremely practical in the winter. Even if the fuel savings were substantial, buying a new one would still not be cost effective whatsoever.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL, with the study you quote I am wondering if they also include the impact of electric generation?


I'd be surprised to find out they did. In the Unicorn Fart perspective of Tree Huggers, all electricity is produced via solar panels & windmills with "zero" environmental impact (pull the other one...). In reality, most electric cars are coal powered. Greenies get hysterical when you point that out.



Rps said:


> The real environmental issue with electric vehicles is their battery.......think of everything we use today that uses a battery....now add cars to that. Nightmare in the making.....


Agreed.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> I'd be surprised to find out they did.


The study examined only emissions from the vehicle itself.

It was not within the scope, and indeed would have been problematic, to address emissions from electricity generation in this particular study. It's one piece of the puzzle, not intended to be a broader indictment of the electric vehicle _per se_.

In fact, the only mention of regenerative braking in the study is:

_However, brake wear of EVs tends to be lower because of their regenerative brakes (Barlow, 2014). _​
So it doesn't appear to have given that aspect much of a look....


----------



## eMacMan

Not quite electric cars, but the treaty comments could apply to those as well.

OK I can understand trying to get government subsidies. At the same time I think giving them would be idiotic. Sadly some of the treaties that the previous crop of crooks & conmen signed and/or negotiated could allow US or International corporations to force governments to grant them. Sadly maintaining Canadian Sovereignty was very low on the Harpoon's list of priorities.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/electric-boat-sales-canada-powered-094800464.html


> Manufacturers hoping for government boost
> 
> Unlike the electric car industry however, the electric boat industry doesn't receive any government incentives, like purchase rebates — something Bobby would like to see in the future.
> 
> Bobby said right now, as far as regulation and federal government incentive programs, electric vehicles are the "Rodney Dangerfield" of the boat manufacturing industry: "they don't get no respect."
> 
> "They don't know where to classify us, they don't know which department to send us to. We have to keep on knocking on their doors," said Bobby, adding he hopes the federal government see the electric boat as part of the solution toward a greener Canada.


----------



## FeXL

So, you've heard the first part of the story: VW got busted installing software onto their diesel powered cars designed to circumvent gov't emissions testers. As part of their penalty, they agreed to invest $2 billion in electric cars.

What you haven't heard: The electric car manufacturers aren't happy with how VW is spending their money.

$2 Billion Volkswagen Electric Car Investment Squabble



> This kind of hilarity is a situation which can only arise in artificial politician driven markets. Volkswagen has essentially been roped in to help subsidise a market which shouldn’t exist. But nobody told them who they were supposed to subsidise, and how.
> 
> I doubt anybody in Volkswagen expects to make a profit, but there is no rule which says they can’t try to rig outcomes, as long as they stay within the law, to attempt to recover as much of their money as possible from this mess – even if their “investment” ends up totally trashing the electric car infrastructure industry.


I jes' luvs it when they eat their own...


----------



## CubaMark

*What can we learn from electric-car owners in Norway (more than 100K of them)?*









[Image: Norsk elbilforening via Flickr]Electric-car rally in Geiranger, Norway [Image: Norsk elbilforening via Flickr]​
Thanks to a combination of government incentives and public enthusiasm, electric cars make up a higher portion of new-car sales in Norway than in any other country.

As of May, there were more than 105,000 plug-in electric cars registered in the Scandinavian country of 5 million people.

That makes Norway possibly the best place in the world to study the habits and preferences of electric-car owners.

Some interesting insights were indeed gleaned by a recent survey of around 8,000 vehicle owners in Norway conducted by the country's Institute of Transport Economics (via Charged EVs).

The survey included responses from 3,111 battery-electric car owners, 2,065 plug-in hybrid owners, and 3,080 owners of non-hybrid gasoline and diesel cars.

One of the main findings was that there is significant overlap between some of these categories, with the majority of electric cars being part of two-car households.

* * *​
Of the electric-car owners surveyed, 71 percent also owned a gasoline or diesel car, 4 percent also owned a plug-in hybrid, and 4 percent owned a second electric car.

The electric-car model most in single-car households was the Tesla Model S, which was twice as likely to be the only vehicle in a household.

The survey also found that owners of all-electric cars and plug-in hybrids had different transportation needs, although both were at least somewhat motivated by economic and environmental considerations.

* * *​
...when it comes time to buy a new car, it seems the majority of Norway's electric-car drivers are happy to stick with plug-ins.

Only about 2 percent of plug-in hybrid buyers said they would not buy a plug-in car again, while the attrition rate or all-electric cars was less than 1 percent.​
(Green Car Reports)


----------



## FeXL

'Nuf said...



CubaMark said:


> Thanks to a combination of government incentives <snip>


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> 'Nuf said...


What we can learn is that people don't buy electric cars unless taxpayers subsidize their cost.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> What we can learn is that people don't buy electric cars unless taxpayers subsidize their cost.


Also helps when typical drive distances are quite short. In this part of the world a round trip to the local swimming pool is 60Kms already stretching the winter range limit of many all electrics.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> ...a round trip to the local swimming pool is 60Kms already stretching the winter range limit of many all electrics.


Well.... no. The king of the hill, Tesla, has a range of 270km. It's on the top end, but most other EVs being sold today aren't really balking at a 60km round-trip....

10 Electric Vehicles With the Best Range in 2015


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Well.... no. The king of the hill, Tesla, has a range of 270km. It's on the top end, but most other EVs being sold today aren't really balking at a 60km round-trip....
> 
> 10 Electric Vehicles With the Best Range in 2015


From the article:



> Still, every affordable (sub-$30,ooo) EV is unable to cover 100 miles on a charge, so consumers need to do their homework when planning a work commute and other activities in gas-free cars.


I assume that winter will take an extra toll on that.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Well.... no. The king of the hill, Tesla, has a range of 270km. It's on the top end, but most other EVs being sold today aren't really balking at a 60km round-trip....
> 
> 10 Electric Vehicles With the Best Range in 2015



Sorry if I somehow ever implied that a Tesla was within my budget. Other trips I make on a monthly basis are 160 Kms or 330 Kms, both well outside normal winter and even summer ranges of most electrics. 

Remember that range does drop off the longer you own an electric. With a minimum 20 year payback even that modest weekly 60 Km trip would be outside the useful range long before an electric paid for itself.


----------



## eMacMan

Given a moderately cold winter which is the norm around here, I would cut projected driving range in half. 

I notice they never list how many KWHs it takes to drive 1 mile. That would be KWHs from the grid, as it always takes more to charge the battery than the battery actually delivers. 

This would be a useful number. Trying for an mpg equivalent is absolutely idiotic as the price of electricity varies so greatly according to local. For example I supposedly pay 9¢/KWH, however factor in the Alberta privatization gouge fees and that number skyrockets over 20¢/KWH.

Since I pay less than $1000/year for gasoline, it's quite a stretch claiming I can save $1100/year. Only possible if Enmax were to pay me for using electricity, which I can assure you is very unlikely. Even at $1100 a year that's a 30 year payback. More than that given the weak state of the Canadian dollar. And even more than that as insurance rates on my old clunkers are somewhat less than newer cars which are more expensive to replace, and more likely to be total write-offs should multiple airbags deploy.


----------



## Macfury

At the point where enough cars are electric, they're going to put device on these cars so that they can figure in a gasoline-style road tax.



eMacMan said:


> Given a moderately cold winter which is the norm around here, I would cut projected driving range in half.
> 
> I notice they never list how many KWHs it takes to drive 1 mile. That would be KWHs from the grid, as it always takes more to charge the battery than the battery actually delivers.
> 
> This would be a useful number. Trying for an mpg equivalent is absolutely idiotic as the price of electricity varies so greatly according to local. For example I supposedly pay 9¢/KWH, however factor in the Alberta privatization gouge fees and that number skyrockets over 20¢/KWH.
> 
> Since I pay less than $1000/year for gasoline, it's quite a stretch claiming I can save $1100/year. Only possible if Enmax were to pay me for using electricity, which I can assure you is very unlikely. Even at $1100 a year that's a 30 year payback. More than that given the weak state of the Canadian dollar. And even more than that as insurance rates on my old clunkers are somewhat less than newer cars which are more expensive to replace, and more likely to be total write-offs should multiple airbags deploy.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> Given a moderately cold winter which is the norm around here, I would cut projected driving range in half.


The impact of cold weather upon battery performance / range has been discussed earlier in this thread, and isn't nearly as dire as people's fears have led many to believe.


----------



## eMacMan

So the Focus EV use a 23 KWH battery pack which delivers a max of 75 miles. Battery packs are seldom drained past 60% or say 14 KWH. Figure 20 KWH to recharge that 14 KWH consumed. All that boils down to ~4¢/Mile. 

So if I could use an all electric for all of my driving I would save at most $650/year on gasoline. That number is still high as I would be limited to shorter trips. So think in terms of about $450/year savings. However, I would sell the small car that gets 38MPG (US) and drive the 25MPG minivan on longer trips. That would increase the cost of those longer trips by ~$250/year. 

Net savings $200/year probably entirely offset by increased insurance costs. Not exact numbers but a whole lot closer than so-called predicted savings in the articles.

Now think in terms of commuting. Seldom more than 6000 miles per year. At 25MPG that's 240 gallons per year. Even at $4/Gallon that's still less than $1000/year or at most $700 in actual savings. Electricity isn't free and if electrics reach a tipping point where grid capacity has to expand to compensate, the cost of electricity will rise quite dramatically.

One of the problems of thinking only in terms of CO2 is that most people stop well short of trying to figure out the entire equation.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> The impact of cold weather upon battery performance / range has been discussed earlier in this thread, and isn't nearly as dire as people's fears have led many to believe.


Based on those discussions, would you risk running out of juice at -25°C, with a 25KPH wind, on an icy highway, 5 kilometers from civilization?

New battery packs only deliver new performance for a year or two. After that the range gradually deteriorates summer or winter. Even more so with cold temps and extra accessories working.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> Based on those discussions, would you risk running out of juice at -25°C, with a 25KPH wind, on an icy highway, 5 kilometers from civilization?


Pretty sure I'd be aware of my vehicle's capabilities and act accordingly. If my EV is originally rated for 80km on a full charge, I'm not likely to make a 75km round trip unless i knew there was a supercharger somewhere en route or the time and ability to plug-in to regular mains power for a top-up once I get where I'm going. 



eMacMan said:


> New battery packs only deliver new performance for a year or two. After that the range gradually deteriorates summer or winter. Even more so with cold temps and extra accessories working.


Not really. Here's an independent study on Tesla's Model S battery performance: 

_Data shows that the Model S’ battery pack generally only loses about 5% of its capacity within the first 50,000 miles and then the degradation significantly slows down with higher mileage. Plug-in America’s data shows several vehicles with over 100,000 miles driven and less than 8% degradation._​





_Tesla’s vehicles come with a 8 years/unlimited miles battery warranty, the loss of battery energy or power over time due to normal battery usage is not covered under this warranty. The data points above would represent normal capacity loss over normal use._​
*And:*

*Staff Car Report: Nissan LEAF Loses its First Capacity After 3 Years, 52.8k Miles*

Let's also remember that battery chemistry and computerized management of these battery packs is constantly being improved. The figures from the reports above are two years old; so the picture today can be expected to be much better.


----------



## CubaMark

_...and then there's this:_

*Tesla Hits a 'Profound Milestone' With Extended-Range Battery*










Tesla on Tuesday introduced a car battery that's being hailed for two reasons: its ability to power an electric vehicle 315 miles on one charge, and the fact that it makes a four-door sedan the fastest accelerating production car (with an *; more on that below). The Wall Street Journal reports the 100 kilowatt-hour battery gives the carmaker a range unmatched by major car companies; it's the first to push past the 300-mile mark. The battery will be available in the Model S sedan and Model X SUV (the latter's range is 289 miles).​
(More at Newser)


----------



## Macfury

So now I would just need a Tesla and a real car to get where I'm going!


----------



## eMacMan

So Tesla comes with an 8 year warranty on the battery pack. Figure that translates to an expected battery life of ~10 years. So expect to replace that battery pack twice during a 30 year period. Current cost estimates for replacement are as high as $45,000 USD, with many believing that cost will eventually drop to about $25,000. Even if you only have to replace the battery pack once over a 30 year period and it works out to a mere $25,000 CDN, Any so-called fuel savings will be eaten alive with that battery replacement. 

All of that comes with a huge what if. What if Tesla goes ten toes up? In that case you may be looking at closer to $50,000 CDN to replace the battery pack or even scrapping the car altogether when the thing does die.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> So Tesla comes with an 8 year warranty on the battery pack. Figure that translates to an expected battery life of ~10 years. So expect to replace that battery pack twice during a 30 year period. Current cost estimates for replacement are as high as $45,000 USD, with many believing that cost will eventually drop to about $25,000.


I would think that someone who is planning to drop $75-$85-thousand on a Tesla is not likely to hold on to it for 30 years. 10, maybe, tops. 

So the battery replacement issue, after Tesla's 8-year warranty, would then become an issue for mainly second owners and potentially affect resale at that point. But it's not a stretch to imagine that 10 years from now, battery technologies and prices will have fallen significantly, ameliorating this scenario somewhat. Even so, a quick search for Tesla TCO (total cost of ownership) sees it performing very well against a wide variety of vehicles, including the Honda Odyssey (admittedly a very different animal).



eMacMan said:


> All of that comes with a huge what if. What if Tesla goes ten toes up? In that case you may be looking at closer to $50,000 CDN to replace the battery pack or even scrapping the car altogether when the thing does die.


Perhaps, though Tesla certainly seems to be positioned for a long-haul. Their recent purchase of SolarCity, affiliation with SpaceX (perhaps Musk will outsource Mars ground transport vehicles to Tesla?) and record-to-date are indicative of a company that isn't going to just vanish (like Fisker did, only to be purchased and reborn, with the new owners servicing original Fisker customers).


----------



## Macfury

Tesla does not appear to me to be positioned for the long haul through that purchase. It is trying desperately to maintain stockholder confidence in a business fueled by government loans instead of revenue. It's a gamble that may pay off, but it's still a gamble.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Tesla does not appear to me to be positioned for the long haul through that purchase. It is trying desperately to maintain stockholder confidence in a business fueled by government loans instead of revenue. It's a gamble that may pay off, but it's still a gamble.


I'm guessing your ingrained hatred for EVs and alternative energies kept you from seeing this bit of news from a few years ago?

*Tesla Repays Department of Energy Loan Nine Years Early*

Tesla Motors announced that it has paid off the entire loan awarded to the company by the Department of Energy in 2010. In addition to payments made in 2012 and Q1 2013, today’s wire of almost half a billion dollars ($451.8M) repays the full loan facility with interest. Following this payment, Tesla will be the only American car company to have fully repaid the government.

* * *​
The loan payment was made today using a portion of the approximately $1 billion in funds raised in last week’s concurrent offerings of common stock and convertible senior notes. Elon Musk, Tesla’s Chief Executive Officer and cofounder, purchased $100 million of common equity, the least secure portion of the offering.​
(Tesla)

Tesla also raised $1.46-billion in a common stock offering in May (2016) and raised more than $4.5 billion in debt and equity offerings over the past six years.

Jerry Hirsch at the L.A. Times has a rather convoluted piece ("Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies") in which he appears to equate any and all federal and state subsidy / incentive for alternative energy to a benefit created for Musk and Musk alone. He criticizes Nevada's payroll rebate deal with Tesla for the Gigafactory project, a tool many states use (under increasing criticism) to attract industry and jobs, which is not Tesla-specific.

It would be lovely if these business journalists who have such a hate-on for Tesla and alternative energies would turn their critical eye toward the subsidies that continue to fuel the toxic fossil fuel industry, but that's apparently asking too much of folks.


----------



## CubaMark

And then there's this recent article (June 2016):

*This Is How Little Government Support Tesla Motors Actually Receives*

One of the most prominent criticisms of Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) is the idea that the company relies heavily on government subsidies, incentives, and other forms of support. This is a common bearish argument, since it stands to reason that those incentives will eventually be phased out. Once that happens, Tesla is doomed, according to the bears.

But Tesla doesn't actually receive much direct support from the government.

*Show me the money*

At Tesla's annual shareholder meeting last week, the company pointed out how little it has received from state and federal governments over the years. The vast majority of Tesla's funding has come from growing revenue and external capital raises from investors.










By far the most prominent instance was the Department of Energy (DOE) loan that Tesla received way back in 2010 as part of the government's Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing program, which was enacted during the Bush administration in 2008. Tesla repaid the loan nine years early in 2013, including a prepayment penalty.

Tesla used funds from a 2013 capital raise to pay back the loan, so essentially the company refinanced the loan with public investors. Elon Musk has framed this decision as a moral one, since he'd rather have Tesla investors support the company instead of taxpayers. Additionally, it was a loan, not a grant.

To be clear, the chart does not include indirect forms of support that do benefit Tesla. There are two notable sources of indirect government support.

*ZEV's not dead*

First, Tesla earns zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) credits in states that have adopted California's emissions regulations standards, and then sells those credits to other OEMs who are either unwilling or unable to meet the requirements on their own. Over the past four quarters, Tesla has generated a total of $118 million from ZEV credit sales, or about 2.8% of total GAAP revenue. This percentage is even lower if you use Tesla's non-GAAP revenue.

* * *​
_*Consumer-based incentives*_

The other prominent incentive in the U.S. is the federal tax incentive of up to $7,500. But that incentive is not specific to Tesla, and is available to all OEMs (subject to volume limits). It's a categorical incentive designed to support the burgeoning market for a wide range of alternative fuel vehicles, including traditional hybrids. Toyota hit its limit for the Prius many years ago, for instance. Tesla is expected to hit its limit in early 2018.​
(Fool.com)


----------



## Macfury

Yes, I include all of those incentives as government money--even if they are available to other companies.

And no, I don't hate EVs. Just hate to see government supporting any industry.


----------



## eMacMan

> I would think that someone who is planning to drop $75-$85-thousand on a Tesla is not likely to hold on to it for 30 years. 10, maybe, tops.


If you are trying to present the car as a viable alternative to gasoline power it has to last long enough to pay for itself. In the case of Tesla that would be a minimum of 30 years, more if you have to replace the battery pack. Matters not whether it remains with the original owner or finds a second garage.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> If you are trying to present the car as a viable alternative to gasoline power it has to last long enough to pay for itself. In the case of Tesla that would be a minimum of 30 years, more if you have to replace the battery pack. Matters not whether it remains with the original owner or finds a second garage.


Is this not holding EVs to a different standard than ICE vehicles? Why must a Tesla "pay for itself" when my 2001 Malibu has done nothing but empty my wallet? :lmao: :-(


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Is this not holding EVs to a different standard than ICE vehicles? Why must a Tesla "pay for itself" when my 2001 Malibu has done nothing but empty my wallet? :lmao: :-(


:lmao::lmao:

If you want to drive a Tesla for the sheer joy of owning one be my guest. Strikes me however that if emptying your wallet is a concern, that might not be a very bright idea. 

If you are trying to present electric as a viable alternative and the Tesla is the only electric with adequate range, then it has to at least break even. 

Range is a huge concern. A Tesla limits me to traveling no further than 200Kms from my door unless I can map out a charging strategy. I can still recall my first car. It had a maximum range of 175 Miles on a tank of gas. That meant at 125 Miles I was looking for a gas station. However if I ran out I could always hitchhike, gas can in hand to the nearest station. I was not looking at a tow.


----------



## TroutMaskReplica

i bought a new 2016 leaf about 3 months ago.

best car i've ever owned. no range issues. we have a gas backup car for long trips, but with all the new level 3 chargers being installed i can see ditching the gas car for another leaf as the second car.

we went on a long trip last weekend, using one of the few existing level 3 chargers to double the range of the car. i only left the car on the charger for 17 min (instead of 30) because the car had about 25% left in the 'tank' when we pulled up. hit the charger again for 23 min on the way back.

here's a map of the locations of the new dc fast chargers in case it hasn't been posted already Electric Vehicles Chargers Ontario

battery has an 8 year warranty. nissan estimates replacement cost will be about $5500 when they start selling batteries sometime in the next year. so the earliest i could theoretically need to pay for a replacement is 8 years from now, at which time if battery prices continue to fall as they have a replacement might be $2500. and in that time we will have saved $19,200 in fuel. i estimate electricity to cost about $4000 during that 8 years


----------



## Macfury

Electric is just fine for people who aren't travel "power users." That Leaf would cramp my style something fierce.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Electric is just fine for people who aren't travel "power users." That Leaf would cramp my style something fierce.


Great! Then y'all can stop bitching about a car you'll never buy yourselves, and leave people who are interested in the topic to talk about it without all this negativity.

:clap:


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## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Great! Then y'all can stop bitching about a car you'll never buy yourselves, and leave people who are interested in the topic to talk about it without all this negativity.
> 
> :clap:


Applauding yourself, CM? That's true pathos!

I'll be here as long as these clunkers are being subsidized with my money.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Great! Then y'all can stop bitching about a car you'll never buy yourselves, and leave people who are interested in the topic to talk about it without all this negativity.
> 
> :clap:


If you believe then feel free to buy. As I said earlier any Tesla is far out of my price range and if I am that environmentally concerned, I can make local trips via shanks mare or bicycle. Both of those are far more cost effective than even a low end electric, and have definite health benefits as a bonus.


----------



## TroutMaskReplica

Macfury said:


> Electric is just fine for people who aren't travel "power users." That Leaf would cramp my style something fierce.


yeah. it's an ugly car. i actually didn't buy it for financial or environmental reasons. we were going to buy a new car anyway and on a whim i booked a test drive with the leaf. i just fell in love with the way it drove.


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## Macfury

TroutMaskReplica said:


> yeah. it's an ugly car. i actually didn't buy it for financial or environmental reasons. we were going to buy a new car anyway and on a whim i booked a test drive with the leaf. i just fell in love with the way it drove.


I should talk An Impala is not exactly a babe magnet.

I can see where a Leaf would really work well if it meshed with your driving habits.Sounds like a good choice for you.


----------



## CubaMark

Tesla is obviously a bit beyond many people's purchase envelope (though note that the fellow in the example cited above was deciding between a Tesla and a Honda Odyssey, and there are a heckuva lot of Odyssey's on the road....).

In any case, Tesla as a technology leader in EVs is showing where the market will go with range possibilities, etc. 

As for range... my daily round-trip (my child's school; wife's recreation; my office; return) is under 30km. Add a grocery run to that or other errand, we might hit 50km. An EV in that scenario is more than viable. Heck, I could do an EV conversion for an old VW Beetle and do that on a few lead-acid batteries....


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Tesla is obviously a bit beyond many people's purchase envelope (though note that the fellow in the example cited above was deciding between a Tesla and a Honda Odyssey, and there are a heckuva lot of Odyssey's on the road....).
> 
> In any case, Tesla as a technology leader in EVs is showing where the market will go with range possibilities, etc.
> 
> As for range... my daily round-trip (my child's school; wife's recreation; my office; return) is under 30km. Add a grocery run to that or other errand, we might hit 50km. An EV in that scenario is more than viable. Heck, I could do an EV conversion for an old VW Beetle and do that on a few lead-acid batteries....


Wow was looking at the prices for conversion kits. By the time you add in options such as a battery pack, heater and a couple of other essential items, looks like you're in the $15,000 CDN range. Could get by with about $1000 worth of regular batteries but it looks like a max 2-3 year lifespan going that route, plus very short 20 Mile range.


----------



## CubaMark

Depends on how handy you are. "Conversion Kits" = $$$$ for the folks who are taking advantage of the new interest in doing conversions, and folks who have $$$ to burn but want to turn their existing classic car into an EV in a way that is, shall we say, more "upscale".

DIY-ers can do it much cheaper. This guy did a 1992 Geo Metro conversion (documented on his website) for just shy of *$1000*, giving him a max 35km range. Range is all in the batteries, so a host vehicle with more space for batteries will have longer range. The Chevy S-10 is a favourite for EV DIY-ers, since Chevy did actually build an EV S-10 in 1997/98.

To check out what other folks have done, see the EVAlbum - over 4400 cars listed, with specs and prices.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Depends on how handy you are. "Conversion Kits" = $$$$ for the folks who are taking advantage of the new interest in doing conversions, and folks who have $$$ to burn but want to turn their existing classic car into an EV in a way that is, shall we say, more "upscale".
> 
> DIY-ers can do it much cheaper. This guy did a 1992 Geo Metro conversion (documented on his website) for just shy of *$1000*, giving him a max 35km range. Range is all in the batteries, so a host vehicle with more space for batteries will have longer range. The Chevy S-10 is a favourite for EV DIY-ers, since Chevy did actually build an EV S-10 in 1997/98.
> 
> To check out what other folks have done, see the EVAlbum - over 4400 cars listed, with specs and prices.


Read about that one. Included such tidbits as having an old electric motor from a fork lift laying around, and electric motors are an easy DIY rebuild. That spline he created was a never to be duplicated bit of luck.

We are talking a degree or two of handy that's a little beyond shade tree mechanic. Again a decent battery pack would inflate the price by another $5000.

How about a heater that is essentially a couple of heated bricks for Canadian winters?


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> How about a heater that is essentially a couple of heated bricks for Canadian winters?


Heh - even the classic VW Beetle sometimes needed help staying warm in Canadian winters....





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## SINC

Remember gas heaters well. Had one in my 64 Beetle which I bought brand new. Warmest car icluding warm up time I ever owned.


----------



## heavyall

TroutMaskReplica said:


> we went on a long trip last weekend, using one of the few existing level 3 chargers to double the range of the car. i only left the car on the charger for 17 min (instead of 30) because the car had about 25% left in the 'tank' when we pulled up. hit the charger again for 23 min on the way back.


What do you consider a "long trip"? My weekend trip destinations are often 1000 km or more away. Anything less than 600 km is a short trip to me.


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## eMacMan

My various fall day trips are typically 350-500KMs and have exactly zero rapid charging stations en-route. 

Given the very high current demands of a rapid charge I wonder how many cars one of those stations can handle at one go? That 15-30 minute charge could easily go over an hour if you have to wait in line, or multiple vehicles at the same teat split the flow.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Remember gas heaters well. Had one in my 64 Beetle which I bought brand new. Warmest car icluding warm up time I ever owned.


Hey Don out of curiosity what was your gas mileage when you hit that month of -30° temps that are an inevitable part of a Canadian winter? 

I had one friend who swore his mileage dropped in half when he had to use the auxiliary heater, although that little bug was toasty and had no problems with the windshield icing up.


----------



## SINC

Gas mileage was reduced for sure, but not by half. It only held eight gals as I recall and I could sure drive a couple of weeks on that in the dead of winter. Course I would only put on about 20 miles a day back then, most of it cruisin' after work with the girl friend.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Gas mileage was reduced for sure, but not by half. It only held eight gals as I recall and I could sure drive a couple of weeks on that in the dead of winter. Course I would only put on about 20 miles a day back then, most of it cruisin' after work with the girl friend.


SINC, these were short cruises. Must have resulted in extended stops.


----------



## SINC

Well when one lives in a town that is two miles across, such is life. And no, no stops for anything other than to get out of a Beetle.


----------



## SINC

This may change the way some think about solar vehicles. A very reasonably priced car indeed.

All-electric and solar-powered car successfully crowdfunded, Sono Motors aims for deliveries in 2018

https://electrek.co/2016/09/02/sono-motors-sion-solarcar-crowdfunded/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4zidi2DEUs


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> This may change the way some think about solar vehicles. A very reasonably priced car indeed.
> 
> All-electric and solar-powered car successfully crowdfunded, Sono Motors aims for deliveries in 2018
> 
> https://electrek.co/2016/09/02/sono-motors-sion-solarcar-crowdfunded/


Interesting - a little bland style-wise, but tech-wise it's an interesting product. The built-into-the-body solar panels can add up to 30km range, useful when your car is in a company parking lot all day under the hot sun. This looks like a great little urban runabout...


----------



## eMacMan

I am questioning the range a bit, just because it claims a range similar to the Nissan Leaf, but with a much smaller battery pack. Will wait and see how this one shakes down.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> I am questioning the range a bit, just because it claims a range similar to the Nissan Leaf, but with a much smaller battery pack.


It appears to be physically smaller / lighter than the Leaf. Less mass = less power needed to move it around. Perhaps that's the key here?


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## SINC

It would certainly be fine for all my city driving, but would need to retain the gas job for long runs.


----------



## pm-r

CubaMark said:


> Heh - even the classic VW Beetle sometimes needed help staying warm in Canadian winters....
> 
> … …



Those gas heaters may have helped keep the interior and passengers warm when they actually worked, but didn't help matters much when the steering would freeze up in the northern or interior BC winter's cold temperatures!!


----------



## SINC

pm-r said:


> Those gas heaters may have helped keep the interior and passengers warm when they actually worked, but didn't help matters much when the steering would freeze up in the northern or interior BC winter's cold temperatures!!


Hmmm, not my experience. My 64 Beetle's gas heater worked flawlessly and the steering was never an issue in Saskatchewan temperatures that routinely got to be -30°F and much lower in winters. As long as it was plugged in, it started every time no matter how cold.


----------



## CubaMark

*What's the minimum electric-car range for mass acceptance? Poll results*

The handful of mass-priced electric cars offered 200 miles or more of range scheduled to launch over the next two years will clearly bring one question to the forefront.

How much rated electric range is "enough" in a mass-market car to make North American buyers consider it sufficient for safe and flexible usage?

The 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV, an upcoming second-generation Nissan Leaf, the Tesla Model 3, and a few other vehicles planned for 2018 or 2019 will provide some answers.

But we put that question out to our Twitter followers, and got a strong response that seemed to indicate 200 miles will help.

That level may be a minimum, however, as virtually none of our respondents felt that 120 miles (3 percent) or even 150 miles (7 percent) were enough.

Just over half the respondents (54 percent) felt that 200 miles would be enough to get electric cars over the hump to mass-market acceptance.​
(Green Car Reports)


----------



## eMacMan

My first 3 cars all had ranges of less than 200 miles. OTOH in those days there were more service stations even though the population was a lot less. Also you could fill your tank and be on your way in about 5 minutes.

Was looking at Tesla charging info and it claims about 50 miles on an hours charge. That's 240V delivering 20KWH. Now my dryer uses 4KWH and requires a 30Amp 240 Volt circuit breaker. So 20 KWH would draw ~85 Amps and require a 100 Amp breaker. That's the amperage of the main on most modern homes. I think the batteries are 48 Volts, stepping down the voltage steps up the amperage, so the total amperage being delivered to the battery would be around 400 amps. 

That is big time current draw for rapid charging.

Around here 20KWH costs about $4 when you factor in the privatization gouge fees. That works out to 8¢/mile. Now my little Toyota was costing me about 12¢/mile back when the price of gas was being jacked up by the puppet masters. This year it is about 9.5¢/mile. 

Just saying the math really does not add up for an electric, unless you have a garage with a massive south facing roof to support solar panels which will charge that battery at the rate of 4KWH on the 6 days a week you leave it home.


----------



## pm-r

_



Was looking at Tesla charging info and it claims about 50 miles on an hours charge.

Click to expand...

_Thanks for doing some of the math for me *eMacMan*, and at those rates, even out 200 amp service panel could be taxed a bit and one can't even load it to maximum. Not sure what the max % rate is or if it's changed.

And how long are those batteries rated to last…??? I tend to keep my cars for many years, and my last '86 Nissan Multi lasted us almost 21 years of use. Hmmm…???


----------



## FeXL

My personal issues with coal-powered cars has nothing to do with range. It has everything to do with subsidies.

Put them on the free market, let them compete on their own merits. If they make it, fine. If not, then we know which technology was better for the consumer.



CubaMark said:


> What's the minimum electric-car range for mass acceptance? Poll results


----------



## CubaMark

*Order up your $15,500 2017 Electra Meccanica Solo electric trike now*










The good people at Electra Meccanica think a single-seat, all-electric three-wheeler is the answer. The question is, what's the problem? According to Electra Meccanica, the trike neatly solves the problem of solo drivers in urban commuting situations. 

Instead of expensive, four-seat boxes that only hold one person, the 2017 Electra Meccanica Solo was designed with the, "consideration that approximately 80 percent of people commute to and from work alone in their personal vehicle. And with the average daily round trip commute being less than 60 km (40 miles), the Solo likely won't require a charge between home and office due to its 160 km (100 mile) range." 

The trike has a 16.1-kWh lithium ion battery can recharge in about six hours on a standard 110-volt outlet (half that on a 220-volt system). The Solo is also meant to appeal to, "driving enthusiasts, practical commuters and the environmentally conscious," according to COO Henry Reisner in a prepared statement.










As promised, the 2017 Electra Meccanica Solo is now on sale. Starting at about $15,500 US, the three-wheeled electric vehicle was unveiled Friday at the Luxury and Supercar Weekend in Vancouver, Canada, where Electra Meccanica is based. If you think the Solo might solve your personal driving problems, you can place an order at the company's website. Deliveries are expected some time in 2017.

(Autoblog)


----------



## Macfury

Looks like the back end fell off it!

All of these calculations on the cost of electric vs. gas don't take into consideration the tax regimen that will kick in once the massive gas taxes begin to subside.


----------



## CubaMark

*Chevy Bolt EV Range: 238 miles*

*Chevy Bolt EV Range: 238 miles*










After only talking about “more than 200 miles” for over a year now, GM finally announced today the expected EPA-rated range of its upcoming all-electric Chevy Bolt EV. The automaker expects the EPA to give the Bolt an impressive range of 238 miles.

Back in April, just a few weeks after Tesla unveiled its Model 3 and announced a minimum range of 215 miles, GM revealed that they had pushed the range of the Bolt to be significantly more than the previously announced “200 miles”.

We are now apparently seeing the result of this “push” with the new EPA estimated range of 238 miles, which is fairly impressive on a 60 kWh battery pack. The Tesla Model S with a 60 kWh battery pack – though a much bigger car – gets 208 miles of EPA-rated range on a single charge.

GM North America President Alan Batey reiterated today that the Bolt will arrive in dealerships later this year​
(electrek)


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *Chevy Bolt EV Range: 238 miles*
> (electrek)


As usual weak reporting. Nine hour charge time at 220V. No mention of Amps. Does it require a 30 amp circuit or something bigger? 

Guessing 25 Amp draw. That would be 50KWH. Around here that would cost $10 for ~200 miles. It did say almost almost empty. Fairly respectable 5¢/mile. Of course a 35 Amp draw would have it up around 8¢/mile. A fairly typical cost but requires the same heavy duty circuit as an electric range.

Sure looks like it shares the coach with the Toyota Matrix.


----------



## Macfury

Much of the range is probably due to lighter body materials. Still, all of the per mile costs are only valid until the government begins a road tax regimen for electrical charging.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Much of the range is probably due to lighter body materials. Still, all of the per mile costs are only valid until the government begins a road tax regimen for electrical charging.


I wonder what even a single 9 hour draw of [email protected] would to do someone on demand rate. They would be charged as if they were drawing that amount 24 hours a day for the entire month.


----------



## CubaMark

*Looks like Ford doesn't quite have the hang of the Hybrid...*

*Problem with your hybrid? Burn more gas, Ford tells owner*

Ford Canada has told a Newfoundland and Labrador woman who has had ongoing issues with her hybrid vehicle that she hasn't been using the gas engine enough — which she says defeats the purpose of owning it.

The automaker said the problem could be solved with changes to her driving habits, and is working with Lisa Sweeney to find a solution.

But Sweeney is worried she's stuck with a $40,000 paperweight.

"It's been very frustrating," she said. "I mean, I just want a car that works."

Sweeney bought her brand new Ford Fusion Hybrid from Cabot Ford in St. John's in May 2014. According to the owner's manual, the vehicle uses a combination of electricity and gasoline for improved efficiency.

"We thought this was a way of doing our part for the environment," she said.

The problems started a year later, when the check engine light came on. 

Since then, the car has been back and forth for servicing at the dealership four times, and out of commission for a total of almost three months.

* * *​
It was eventually discovered that sludge was building up in the vehicle's oil cap.

Ford Canada issued a bulletin in June, stating that the thick, milky substance was caused by condensation.

It forms when the vehicle is used in cold weather, combined with driving short distances that don't allow the gas engine to warm up to its full operating temperature.

* * *​
Ford Canada told Sweeney to routinely drive her car at highway speeds for 15 to 30 minutes, with the defroster on the highest setting. It also suggested more frequent oil changes.

"I generally don't drive on the highway," Sweeney said. "I have no reason to drive on the highway."

She does most of her driving to and from work — a 12-kilometre trek between her home in Mount Pearl and her employer in St. John's. The drive takes approximately 20 minutes each way, getting up to maximum speeds of 70 km/h.

"I have read the [owner's] manual from front to back," Sweeney said. "There is nothing stating in the manual that I would have to do these things." 

She said Ford's suggested fix defeats the purpose of driving a hybrid.

* * *​
In July, a representative at Cabot Ford told Sweeney the dealership could be of no further assistance to her.​
(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

Tesla delaying delivery of Model 3:

"Production begins late 2017. Delivery estimate for new reservations is mid 2018 or later."


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Tesla delaying delivery of Model 3:
> 
> "Production begins late 2017. Delivery estimate for new reservations is mid 2018 or later."


*Um. No.*

*Tesla Model 3 is not delayed, CNBC misreports and sends Tesla (TSLA) stock crashing*

Tesla updated its Model 3 page on its website today to let new Model 3 reservation holders know that they should not expect to get their vehicle until “mid-2018 or later”. That’s for new Model 3 reservation holders since Tesla has over 400,000 reservations and the company expects to start delivery in “late 2017”. 

In other words, the automaker expects that it will take between 6 to 12 months to work through its backlog, which isn’t news for most people following Tesla.

But CNBC reported this as news that Tesla “pushed back” delivery of “new Model 3 orders”, which sent Tesla’s stock down by 2% in seconds.​
(Electrek)


----------



## Macfury

I copied the line directly from the Tesla front page, so no bad on me. This is Tesla's miscommunication.



CubaMark said:


> *Um. No.*
> 
> *Tesla Model 3 is not delayed, CNBC misreports and sends Tesla (TSLA) stock crashing*
> 
> Tesla updated its Model 3 page on its website today to let new Model 3 reservation holders know that they should not expect to get their vehicle until “mid-2018 or later”. That’s for new Model 3 reservation holders since Tesla has over 400,000 reservations and the company expects to start delivery in “late 2017”.
> 
> In other words, the automaker expects that it will take between 6 to 12 months to work through its backlog, which isn’t news for most people following Tesla.
> 
> But CNBC reported this as news that Tesla “pushed back” delivery of “new Model 3 orders”, which sent Tesla’s stock down by 2% in seconds.​
> (Electrek)


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *Um. No.*
> 
> *Tesla Model 3 is not delayed, CNBC misreports and sends Tesla (TSLA) stock crashing*
> Tesla updated its Model 3 page on its website today to let new Model 3 reservation holders know that they should not expect to get their vehicle until “mid-2018 or later”. That’s for new Model 3 reservation holders since Tesla has over 400,000 reservations and the company expects to start delivery in “late 2017”.
> 
> In other words, the automaker expects that it will take between 6 to 12 months to work through its backlog, which isn’t news for most people following Tesla.
> 
> But CNBC reported this as news that Tesla “pushed back” delivery of “new Model 3 orders”, which sent Tesla’s stock down by 2% in seconds.​(Electrek)


I'd sure like to know who sold Tesla short, shortly before that report. Too bad the SEC has had all its teeth pulled. Iceland has the right idea, jail the buggers.


----------



## CubaMark

*All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware*

We are excited to announce that, as of today, all Tesla vehicles produced in our factory – including Model 3 – will have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver. Eight surround cameras provide 360 degree visibility around the car at up to 250 meters of range. Twelve updated ultrasonic sensors complement this vision, allowing for detection of both hard and soft objects at nearly twice the distance of the prior system. A forward-facing radar with enhanced processing provides additional data about the world on a redundant wavelength, capable of seeing through heavy rain, fog, dust and even the car ahead.

To make sense of all of this data, a new onboard computer with more than 40 times the computing power of the previous generation runs the new Tesla-developed neural net for vision, sonar and radar processing software. Together, this system provides a view of the world that a driver alone cannot access, seeing in every direction simultaneously and on wavelengths that go far beyond the human senses.

Model S and Model X vehicles with this new hardware are already in production, and customers can purchase one today.

Before activating the features enabled by the new hardware, we will further calibrate the system using millions of miles of real-world driving to ensure significant improvements to safety and convenience. While this is occurring, Teslas with new hardware will temporarily lack certain features currently available on Teslas with first-generation Autopilot hardware, including some standard safety features such as automatic emergency braking, collision warning, lane holding and active cruise control. As these features are robustly validated we will enable them over-the-air, together with a rapidly expanding set of entirely new features. As always, our over-the-air software updates will keep customers at the forefront of technology and continue to make every Tesla, including those equipped with first-generation Autopilot and earlier cars, more capable over time.​
(Tesla)


----------



## FeXL

*Because it's 2015!*

My tax dollars at work.

Trudeau Liberals set to join Wynne Liberals in helping rich people buy electric cars



> What is it with our governments and *public subsidies* for electric vehicles?
> 
> Federal Climate Change Minister Catherine McKenna told The Canadian Press this month the Trudeau government is working on *“creating incentives”* for Canadians to buy electric vehicles.


If the f'ing product can't sell itself, do what every other self-respecting entrepreneur on the planet does: Give it a decent burial.

I'm tired of supporting crap with my tax dollars that wouldn't make it in the free market...


----------



## SINC

Well, here is a novel electric vehicle.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## eMacMan

A worthwhile read.
Colorado to test taxing drivers per mile | Colorado Springs Gazette, News

Note if you drive a guzzler you will come out ahead with this scheme but if your car gets more than 19 mile per gallon you will be paying extra. Of course a light car that averages 40 MPG does far less damage to roads than the Winnebago barely making 10 MPG. 

As previously noted the roads still need to be maintained and the government will do what it has to do to pull in the cash that currently comes from gas taxes.


----------



## FeXL

<snort>

Just down the road from me...

Tesla chargers in Fort MacLeod, Alberta. No Teslas in sight


----------



## CubaMark

*How much have electric-car battery costs fallen? This much!*










According to the study, average electric-car battery costs declined every year between 2010 and 2015.

Between 2014 and 2015, average costs decreased by 35 percent.

* * *​
In addition to cost reductions achieved through changes to cell chemistry and manufacturing processes, the study also notes cost decreases due to "aggressive pricing" by large battery manufacturers looking to defend their market share.

Tesla's opening of a massive "Gigafactory" in Nevada to provide greater economies of scale is also cited as a contributor.​(Green Car Reports)​


----------



## Macfury

It's kind of funny because the Gigafactory sells to Tesla--I'm sure actual costs are hard to isolate.

Canada has plenty of high-quality graphite, with companies like Eagle graphite in BC sitting on great reserves just waiting for North American battery production. Almost all of the supply chain is currently in China, Japan and a few other Asian countries.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Canada has plenty of high-quality graphite, with companies like Eagle graphite in BC sitting on great reserves just waiting for North American battery production. *Almost all of the supply chain is currently in China, Japan and a few other Asian countries*.


*Nope.*

*Tesla Model 3 could soon become the ‘most American made car’ with 95% of the parts made in the US*

Tesla’s new ‘2170’ battery cell is the most important product Tesla is bringing to market this year, even more so than the Model 3 which it is enabling. Batteries can be perceived as a boring commodity and it’s definitely not as exciting as Tesla’s consumer products, but the cost, energy density and other differentiating factors are the basis for those consumer products and therefore, its production is highly critical to the company’s short-term success.

Beyond significantly reducing the cost of li-ion batteries, Gigafactory batteries will also have a less obvious benefit of making Tesla’s vehicles “more American”.

* * *​
When Tesla’s new ‘2170’ battery cell will be added to its vehicles, which is expected to be in the second quarter for the Model 3, Tesla’s vehicles will become 95% made in the US and potentially become the “most American cars” in production...

* * *​
CEO Elon Musk also stated that the raw materials in those cells would be primarily sourced in America in order to save on logistic costs.

The focus on being more American-made was in the work for years at Tesla and it was primarily about logistics and access to the workforce, but in the new political climate, it could be useful to the company. President-elect Donald Trump says that he is on a quest to bring back jobs to America, but his upcoming administration is positioning itself to cut some rules for fuel consumption that would have encouraged carmakers to produce electric vehicles in volume, which works with Tesla’s mission to accelerate the advent of electric transport.

As we recently reported, Musk joined President-elect Trump’s Strategic and Policy Forum. If Tesla can show that making electric vehicles in the US can be a major job creator (Tesla currently employs over 25,000 people in the US), Trump could possibly be encouraged to keep those fuel consumption goals that will force mass production of EVs.​
(Electrek)


----------



## Macfury

*Yep.*

Most of the supply chain for graphite refining and production of anodes is currently in Asia. There are a few American companies working on anode production and one in Nova Scotia--Elcora. Graphite producers in Canada have been eagerly awaiting an announcement from Tesla that it will source graphite or anodes locally, but no official word on that.


----------



## CubaMark

_*My bad *_- I thought you were referring to Tesla, not graphite / battery production in general.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> _*My bad *_- I thought you were referring to Tesla, not graphite / battery production in general.


Chinese anode production is a pretty filthy process-lots of hydrochloric and hydrofluoric acid is used to refine the graphite. The high quality sources available in Canada would be a better bet--companies like Eagle can refine it using pine oil. The trick would be for them to line up with a domestic anode manufacturer and get Tesla to take notice.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The trick would be for them to line up with a domestic anode manufacturer and get Tesla to take notice.


I know!!! Create a subsidy...


----------



## CubaMark

Anybody in Ontario who's been wanting a Tesla, the deal just got a lot sweeter:

*Tesla buyers now have access to Ontario’s generous $14,000 EV incentive*


----------



## Macfury

That's really sickening. The province is hurting enough financially already without helping more rich people buy a Tesla.



CubaMark said:


> Anybody in Ontario who's been wanting a Tesla, the deal just got a lot sweeter:
> 
> *Tesla buyers now have access to Ontario’s generous $14,000 EV incentive*


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla’s market cap is now bigger than Ford’s*

Tesla's stock is up 14% a day after the company announced the delivery of 25,000 Model S and Model X cars in Q1. Tesla says that represents a 69% increase from the same period a year ago. The company also produced 25,418 vehicles this quarter—another record. The stats are particularly notable as Tesla's worth is increasingly compared to that of older auto manufacturers. While it may still lag very far behind the likes of GM and Ford in terms of production, its market capitalization is sidling up alongside them, and recently overtook Ford's.
(Fast Company)​


----------



## FeXL

Imagine how big GM & Ford's market cap could be if their vehicles were subsidized to the tune of 5 figures each...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Imagine how big GM & Ford's market cap could be if their vehicles were subsidized to the tune of 5 figures each...


Bingo. That's why it's market cap is high while production remains low.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Imagine how big GM & Ford's market cap could be if their vehicles were subsidized to the tune of 5 figures each...


*ahem*

*Tesla received only a fraction of the subsidies the Big Three and oil industry have received*


----------



## Macfury

CM, we've debunked that study here several times. It's not a subsidy just because the author of the study thinks the tax on Fords should be triple what it is.



CubaMark said:


> *ahem*
> 
> *Tesla received only a fraction of the subsidies the Big Three and oil industry have received*


----------



## Macfury

This chart had no credits, but if true it shows how out of whack markets are right now regarding car companies:


----------



## SINC

Hmmmm . . .


----------



## Macfury

Better still, the oil sands site will look like a forest again. The lithium mine will probably look like a desert planet from _Star Wars_.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Hmmmm . . .


This is also a lithium "mine" - extraction from salt water pools. Does the fact that it's "prettier" than the hole in the ground you posted change your view of it?










The extraction of lithium, unlike oil extraction, does not result in the contamination of waterways, as in pipeline spills or tailings pond leakage; there is no off-gassing as in oil refineries that pollute the air we breathe; the use of the refined product from oil also contaminates, particularly in large cities with a concentration of combustion engined vehicles.

There are absolutely negative aspects of lithium mining (many of us are concerned about Bolivia's famous salt flats should that country decide to exploit lithium production), but to draw equivalences with the enormously polluting fossil fuel industry is simply ludicrous.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Hmmmm . . .


The trouble is we think electricity at the plug is clean. In Ontario we have nuke plants, which are the cleanest at the plug but the residual lasts for centuries and is very damaging....not to say costly. If it were me I would not have nuke power in Canada.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> This is also a lithium "mine" - extraction from salt water pools. Does the fact that it's "prettier" than the hole in the ground you posted change your view of it?


Meh, neither one is very pretty and uses huge areas to accomplish extraction. I think it's comparable in size to oil extraction, but with less chance of pollution, yes.

Thing is, what do you do with all those batteries and acid, etc. when they are drained and need to be disposed of a decade from now?


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> Meh, neither one is very pretty and uses huge areas to accomplish extraction. I think it's comparable in size to oil extraction, but with less chance of pollution, yes.
> 
> Thing is, what do you do with all those batteries and acid, etc. when they are drained and need to be disposed of a decade from now?


Sinc, you took the words right out of my mouth. If you also ask an MPP or MP all you get is crickets. They simply are not thinking that far nough ahead.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Meh, neither one is very pretty and uses huge areas to accomplish extraction. I think it's comparable in size to oil extraction, but with less chance of pollution, yes.
> 
> Thing is, what do you do with all those batteries and acid, etc. when they are drained and need to be disposed of a decade from now?


The electrolyte in Lithium-ion batteries, if my understanding is correct, is considerably less in quantity than in standard lead-acid batteries. As for the recycling of electric vehicle batteries:

_OEMs are looking at overcoming the dependency on lithium through reuse of lithium batteries in other applications (second-life) and through recycling the batteries once they have completed their lifecycle. However, it does not make any economic sense to recycle the batteries. Batteries contain only a small fraction of lithium carbonate as a percent of weight and are inexpensive compared to cobalt or nickel. The average lithium cost associated with Li-ion battery production is less than 3% of the production cost. Intrinsic value for the Li-ion recycling business currently comes from the valuable metals such as cobalt and nickel that are more highly priced than lithium. Due to less demand for lithium and low prices, almost none of the lithium used in consumer batteries is completely recycled.

While lithion is 100% recyclable, currently economics do not add up to recycle it

Recycled lithium is as much as five times the cost of lithium produced from the least costly brine based process. It is not competitive for recycling companies to extract lithium from slag, or competitive for the OEMs to buy at higher price points from recycling companies. Though lithium is 100% recyclable, currently, recycled lithium reports to the slag and is currently used for non-automotive purposes, such as construction, or sold in the open-markets. However, with the increasing number of EVs entering the market in the future and with a significant supply crunch, recycling is expected to be an important factor for consideration in effective material supply for battery production._(Waste Management World)​
It also depends very much on both the manufacturer's policies (as in Tesla's "closed-loop" battery recycling program) and/or government regulation.

Gone are the days when corporations, particularly those in the EV field who want to be seen as "green", would produce a product with potentially environmentally-damaging waste without a plan to deal with it.

*EDIT: *And more news from this morning


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Sinc, you took the words right out of my mouth. If you also ask an MPP or MP all you get is crickets. They simply are not thinking that far nough ahead.


Politicians love electric cars because it allows them to control the fuel supply of automobiles through public utilities.


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla battery researcher says they doubled lifetime of batteries in Tesla’s products 4 years ahead of time*

Almost a year into his new research partnership with Tesla, battery researcher Jeff Dahn has been hitting the talk circuit presenting some of his team’s recent progress. We reported last week on his talk at the International Battery Seminar from March and now we have a talk from him at MIT this week.

He went into details about why Tesla decided to work with his team and hire one of his graduate students, but he also announced that they have developed cells that can double the lifetime of the batteries in Tesla’s products – 4 years ahead of schedule.

** * **​
he explained how their new testing methods led them to discover that a certain aluminum coating outperformed any other material. The cells tested showed barely any degradation under high numbers of cycles at moderate temperature and only little degradation even in difficult conditions.

When it was time to talk about how those discoveries are impacting Tesla’s products, Dahn asked to stop recording the talk in order to go into the details.

While we couldn’t get that valuable information, when they started recording again, it was for a Q&A session and the first question was about his team’s ultimate goal for the lifetime of li-ion batteries.

He hesitated to answer, but then he said:

_“In the description of the [Tesla] project that we sent to NSERC (Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada) to get matching funds from the government for the project, I wrote down the goal of doubling the lifetime of the cells used in the Tesla products at the same upper cutoff voltage. We exceeded that in round one. OK? So that was the goal of the project and it has already been exceeded. We are not going to stop – obviously – we have another four years to go. We are going to go as far as we can.”_​(Electrek)​


----------



## Macfury

> “In the description of the [Tesla] project that we sent to NSERC (Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada) to get matching funds from the government for the project,


Why do they need government money to do what they are already doing?


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Why do they need government money to do what they are already doing?


Presumably there is an existing government program to stimulate alternative energy development. Like Trump says, he'd be stupid if he didn't take advantage of it. beejacon


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Presumably there is an existing government program to stimulate alternative energy development. Like Trump says, he'd be stupid if he didn't take advantage of it. beejacon


Agreed. But it doesn't justify the funding.


----------



## CubaMark

*Startup unveils new all-electric pickup truck with Tesla-like interior*










A mysterious new startup, *Havelaar Canada*, unveiled an all-electric pickup truck concept today at the EMC show in Markham, Ontario.

With the unveiling of the vehicle, called Bison E-Pickup, the Toronto-based company announced that they plan to bring the electric vehicle to production in Ontario.

Electric pickup trucks came into the news recently after Tesla announced that they plan to reveal one within “18 to 24 months” and Workhorse unveiled its plug-in hybrid W-15 pickup truck.

In a press release, Havelaar said that the Bison E-Pickup features an all-wheel-drive system with “advanced electronic management of the vehicle dynamics.”

They wrote:

“Underpinning the Bison is an advanced dual-motor, fully-electric powertrain driving the four corners. Our E-Pickup™ concept utilizes an advanced telemetry and innovative packaging. The Bison is a sophisticated #nextgen pickup truck with instant connectivity, touch screen display and driver assistive technology calibrated to meet both the day-to-day work demands and active lifestyle needs of adventurers.”

The battery pack would enable a range of “at least 300 km (~186 miles)” on a single charge, according to the company.

(More info & pics at: Electrek)​


----------



## Macfury

Electrics have the capability of designing a car to look any way they want, but it's not a handsome unit, that's for sure.

Looks more like an urban SUV crossover than a work vehicle.


----------



## CubaMark

*Volvo to go electric and hybrid only starting in 2019*










All Volvo car models launched after 2019 will be electric or hybrids, the Chinese-owned company said on Wednesday, making it the first major traditional automaker to set a date for phasing out vehicles powered solely by the internal combustion engine.

The Sweden-based company will continue to produce pure combustion-engine Volvos from models launched before that date, but its move signals the eventual end of nearly a century of Volvos powered solely that way.

While electric and hybrid vehicles are still only a small fraction of new cars sales, they are gaining ground at the premium end of the market, where Volvo operates and where Elon Musk's Tesla Motors has been a pure-play battery carmaker from day one. As technology improves and prices fall, many in the industry expect mass-market adoption to follow.

"This announcement marks the end of the solely combustion engine-powered car," Volvo Cars CEO Hakan Samuelsson said.
(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

So not all electric and hybrid, but just on newer models.


----------



## FeXL

Nothing that another free $5 billion injection of OPM wouldn't fix...

Tesla Story Becoming Increasingly Fantastic As Business Model Falls Apart



> Summary
> 
> Tesla delivery numbers continue to tell a story of misery - the missing in-transit numbers is a story by itself.
> 
> Model 3 narrative is even less credible - expect huge losses ahead.
> 
> *Underutilization of manufacturing facilities and ongoing opex and capex continue to push the company toward bankruptcy.*


M'bold.

Almost brings a tear to my eye.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Not...


----------



## Macfury

Production of Tesla vehicles is woefully low, and among automakers, I have read that Tesla's production is the least automated.


----------



## FeXL

Another American electric car maker in trouble.

Mississippi demands $6.4M back from electric car maker, CEO



> Mississippi’s state auditor on Wednesday demanded that a troubled electric car maker or its leader repay $4.9 million in state and local aid the company received, plus $1.5 million of interest.
> 
> Auditor Stacey Pickering issued the demand to GreenTech Automotive and its CEO, Charles Wang, saying the company has failed to live up to pledges to invest $60 million and create 350 jobs in Tunica County, just south of Memphis, Tennessee.
> 
> GreenTech once planned to build 250,000 cars a year and invest $2 billion, but first sharply downsized its goals, and then failed to meet them, authorities said. In a July 2011 agreement, GreenTech promised to invest $60 million and hire 350 full-time workers by the end of 2014, paying each at least $35,000 and maintaining those jobs for at least 10 years.


----------



## FeXL

Kevin Libin: The awesome, unstoppable revolutionary electric-car revolution that doesn't actually exist



> So far, because nobody’s really driving these miracle machines, said mania has been limited to breathless news reports about how the electric-vehicle revolution is about to rock our world. EVs comprise just two-tenths of a per cent of all passenger vehicles in North America, despite the media’s endless hype and efforts of green-obsessed governments to cover much of the price tag, like Ontario’s $14,000 rebate for Tesla buyers. In Europe, where virtue-signalling urban environmentalism is the coolest, they’re not feeling the vehicular electricity much more: EVs account for barely one per cent of personal vehicles in France, the U.K. and Germany. *When Hong Kong cancelled Tesla rebates in April, sales fell to zero.*


My bold.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Kevin Libin: The awesome, unstoppable revolutionary electric-car revolution that doesn't actually exist


From Forbes:



> But Denmark has demonstrated that pulling incentives is almost as effective.
> 
> Tesla’s Elon Musk had traveled to Copenhagen and lobbied against the cuts, and now the Danish government has extended the tax breaks but still intends to reduce or eliminate various incentives. *The phase-out plan “completely killed the market,” said Laerke Flader, head of the Danish Electric Car Alliance. “Price really matters.”*


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> From Forbes:


Precisely. I observed on these boards years ago that the only way the majority of people will adopt alternative energy is to make it just as convenient as fossil fuels and as affordable. By extension, that goes for coal-powered cars, as well.

Pull the subsidies & neither stand a chance on their own.


----------



## FeXL

Further on the effect of pulling subsidies from coal-powered cars.

EDITORIAL: What would happen to Tesla without subsidies, tax breaks for electric car buyers?



> The Wall Street Journal reported this week that it drives Mr. Musk “crazy” when critics argue that his company is the creation of government subsidies and handouts. Perhaps he reacts so strongly because he knows they may have a point.
> 
> Consider the Journal’s revelations about Tesla sales in Hong Kong. After the government there, effective April 1, eliminated a tax break for those purchasing electric vehicles, the number of Tesla cars registered fell to zero. That’s right. Zero.
> 
> “Not a single newly purchased Tesla model was registered in Hong Kong in April,” the paper reported. In the month prior to the loss of the tax break, Hong Kong consumers registered 2,939 new Tesla vehicles.
> 
> Nor is this unusual. When the government in Denmark in 2015 reduced generous tax breaks for electric car buyers, sales of such vehicles dropped the next year by 70 percent, the Journal reported.


----------



## FeXL

So, Euan Mearns just compared two versions of the same Mercedes car, a diesel and an electric.

Mercedes B-Class Electric and Diesel Cars Compared



> This post compares the price and performance of the Mercedes B class all electric and 180d diesel cars. In this summary the subsidies and taxes have been stripped out. The all electric costs 39% more and has only 14% of the range of the diesel. Using these metrics, the diesel is 10 times better than the electric car. The 104 mile range of the electric car really confines its use to a daily commute or city runaround which somewhat devalues the 8 second 0-62 mph acceleration. Stripping out taxes on fuel, the running costs per 100 kms are 249p (electric) and 159p (diesel). Contrary to popular belief, electric vehicles (EVs) are considerably more expensive to run. Zero tail pipe emissions (NOx, PM2.5 and CO2) is the clear advantage that the all electric version has. The question then is zero tail pipe emissions worth the extra cost and reduced performance?


One thing he doesn't talk about is all the virtue signalling you get from your coal-powered car...


----------



## FeXL

Curious, the left always leaves out these niggling little details about their coal-powered cars...

Child miners aged four living a hell on Earth so YOU can drive an electric car: Awful human cost in squalid Congo cobalt mine that Michael Gove didn’t consider in his ‘clean’ energy crusade



> * Sky News investigated the Katanga mines and found Dorsen, 8, and Monica, 4
> * The pair were working in the vast mines of the Democratic Republic of Congo
> * They are two of the 40,000 children working daily in the mines, checking rocks for cobalt


Where's the hue & the cry?

Or does the end justify the means?


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Where's the hue & the cry?
> 
> Or does the end justify the means?


Curious, I don't recall you shedding any tears for the children killed / maimed / orphaned / made into refugees as a result of the ongoing wars for oil....

_Or does the end justify the means?_

XX)


----------



## FeXL

Red herring, much?



CubaMark said:


> Curious, I don't recall you shedding any tears for the children killed / maimed / orphaned / made into refugees as a result of the ongoing wars for oil....
> 
> _Or does the end justify the means?_
> 
> XX)


----------



## FeXL

Not a surprise to anybody paying attention.

Daimler Hints That Electric-Vehicle Sales Would Collapse Without Subsidies



> Automakers in the US and Europe that have dedicated vast resources to developing electric or hybrid vehicles are slowly waking up to an uncomfortable reality: The market for electric vehicles in the West would simply not exist without subsidies.
> 
> Even with the generous tax credits and rebates, received more often than not by wealthy buyers who treat their Teslas like expensive playthings, sales of these vehicles have lagged expectations at every turn. And now one German car maker is proving that effective state sponsorship of the EV industry still isn't enough for auto manufacturers to hit lofty sales targets.


Related:

No energy for electric cars from government staffers



> Not only is the Ontario government failing to convince regular folks to purchase an electric vehicle, it can’t even get its own staff to buy in.
> 
> According to figures obtained by the Toronto Sun through a Freedom of Information request, a mere 4.16% of the Ontario Public Service (OPS) passenger vehicle fleet is electric, mostly hybrids.
> 
> The number of electric vehicles on the road overall is just 14,005 — or roughly one in every 510 passenger vehicles — registered in Ontario, despite generous government subsidies.


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla to quadruple size of Canadian Supercharger network, electrify Trans-Canada*









Tesla Inc. is adding nearly 100 new Canadian stops to its growing network of charging stations—a major expansion that will more than quadruple the number of Superchargers in Canada and convert its patchy current charging network into a coast-to-coast system.

** * **​
While a number of the new Canadian locations won’t be switched on until 2018, the majority of the Trans-Canada Highway will be electrified—with the notable exceptions of Newfoundland’s segment of the highway and the secondary western stretch also known as the Yellowhead Highway.

Overall, the project will increase the number of Superchargers in Canada from under 30 to nearly 120.

Ontario is in for by far the largest expansion, while both Quebec and B.C. will see their networks more than double.

Meanwhile, to allow Tesla drivers to bridge the current dead zone between Ontario cottage country and Calgary, Saskatchewan and Manitoba will be getting their first Supercharger stations. Tesla also plans to build its first handful of charging stations in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick...

** * **​
Along with the cross-Canada network, Tesla is pushing better access to Superchargers within Canadian cities. The company is adding stations in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. The GTA, which currently has just one Supercharger, will have 14 by 2018, while the Montreal and Vancouver areas will each have six.

(Canadian Manufacturing)


----------



## FeXL

Wonder if they're going to see any more use than the 7 in Ft. Macleod, a town of 3000 about a half hour west of Lethbridge.

<snort>

A couple guys have been unofficially monitoring the stations. While not there 24/7, they've never seen a car getting charged there since it opened. 



CubaMark said:


> Tesla Inc. is adding nearly 100 new Canadian stops to its growing network of charging stations...


----------



## Macfury

As long as no additional government funds go into this, who cares where they put the bloody things?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> As long as no additional government funds go into this, who cares where they put the bloody things?


'Cause it just perpetuates the myth.

'Sides, where' the money come from in the first place? The 5 billion in gov't grants that some Progs deny the existence of...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Wonder if they're going to see any more use than the 7 in Ft. Macleod, a town of 3000 about a half hour west of Lethbridge.
> 
> <snort>
> 
> A couple guys have been unofficially monitoring the stations. While not there 24/7, they've never seen a car getting charged there since it opened.


To quote one of the comments on the Twitter post you cited:



> *Michelle Côté* @violetdevine
> 
> Jan 4
> _I just drove by a gas station and no one was fueling up. Only plausible conclusion: no market for gasoline now or ever._​


...and if you bothered to read through the comments, several Tesla owners posted photos of their cars charging at that station. But I'm sure those are outliers, wouldn't want to bust your narrative with facts. :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Several!!! :yikes: 

Shocka...

Can't think of a single time in all the years I've been at the gas station that someone was taking a photo of fuelling up. Never happened at the farm, either. 

Tell me, just what kind of an attention-seeking whore takes a picture of their coal-powered car charging up halfway through a 120 mile trip? Is it really such a momentous occasion? Something to be proud of? Spend a hunnert grand on a car that can't drive a third of a workday without recharging?

Holy hell, Poopsie, we found one! Get the camera out. We can go all the way to Calgary & back now. It'll only take 3 charges & two days. With the new station at Dead Beer, we can take a week off & go all the way to Edmonchuk! Maybe see Freddie!!! Woohoo!!!

Jes' askin'...



CubaMark said:


> ...several Tesla owners posted photos of their cars charging at that station.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Several!!! :yikes:
> 
> Shocka...
> 
> Can't think of a single time in all the years I've been at the gas station that someone was taking a photo of fuelling up. Never happened at the farm, either.
> 
> Tell me, just what kind of an attention-seeking whore takes a picture of their coal-powered car charging up halfway through a 120 mile trip? Is it really such a momentous occasion? Something to be proud of? Spend a hunnert grand on a car that can't drive a third of a workday without recharging?
> 
> Holy hell, Poopsie, we found one! Get the camera out. We can go all the way to Calgary & back now. It'll only take 3 charges & two days. With the new station at Dead Beer, we can take a week off & go all the way to Edmonchuk! Maybe see Freddie!!! Woohoo!!!
> 
> Jes' askin'...


Well if takes half an hour to get your charge on, you might as well take pictures.

Seriously as I get older this is not all bad. My current vehicles will go 400 or even 500 miles on a single tank of gas. Sadly my bladder is only good for about 100 miles. 

OTOH I don't have $40,000 to $100,000 to drop on a car that will send my electric bills skyrocketing, so will just have to make otherwise unneeded pit stops at Maccy D's


----------



## FeXL

Coles Notes version: People fleeing Florida in the wake of Irma _suddenly_ had more range from their electric cars...

Caution: Link to _NYT_ inside.

We Don't Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> By boosting range to help customers flee Irma, Tesla reveals it had been artificially limiting range unless you pay extra.


More:



> Tesla pushed an emergency over-the-air update to some cars in the southeast U.S., extending the electric cars range to help owners evacuate ahead of Hurricane Irma.
> 
> Electrek first reported on the news, and it was later confirmed by a Tesla spokesperson.
> 
> SEE ALSO: Tesla's electric semi could be the 'biggest catalyst for the trucking industry in decades,' says analyst
> 
> Tesla could do this because some Tesla cars are sold with battery capacity locked to a lower figure by the car's software. For example, a Tesla Model S 60 only has access to 60kWh battery capacity, despite having a larger, 75kWh battery. *Owners can pay for an upgrade, which can cost as much as $9,000*, but Tesla offered the upgrade for free to everyone in the mandatory evacuation zone.


M'bold.

Only $9000 for an additional 15kWh? Who says capitalism is dead?

They make it sound like a feature, not a bug...


----------



## Macfury

It's an upgrade don'tchaknow, not an artificial hobbling device. Bet it's illegal to unshackle it on your own.



FeXL said:


> Coles Notes version: People fleeing Florida in the wake of Irma _suddenly_ had more range from their electric cars...
> 
> Caution: Link to _NYT_ inside.
> 
> We Don't Need No Flaming Sparky Cars
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> M'bold.
> 
> Only $9000 for an additional 15kWh? Who says capitalism is dead?
> 
> They make it sound like a feature, not a bug...


----------



## Beej

eMacMan said:


> My current vehicles will go 400 or even 500 miles on a single tank of gas. Sadly my bladder is only good for about 100 miles.


That's a great line.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> It's an upgrade don'tchaknow, not an artificial hobbling device. Bet it's illegal to unshackle it on your own.


I would like to see verification of this (somebody must have pics of their "upgrade". 

The $9k may be the physical addition of more battery capacity, while the hobble could be to keep usable capacity on the original battery constant. Batteries degrade with use and instead of owners wondering why their charge won't go as far as last year, the software could access excluded cells to maintain performance.


----------



## Macfury

No, the capacity is already there. A software signal from Tesla unlocks it for a fee.

Tesla unlocked Florida drivers' 60kWh batteries before Irma. Not everyone's happy.



> Since last spring, Tesla vehicles purchased with a 60kWh battery option have actually come with a 75kWh battery. The company’s software electronically limited the range to 60kWh, though it gave drivers the option to upgrade to full capacity at any time—for several thousand dollars.





Beej said:


> I would like to see verification of this (somebody must have pics of their "upgrade".
> 
> The $9k may be the physical addition of more battery capacity, while the hobble could be to keep usable capacity on the original battery constant. Batteries degrade with use and instead of owners wondering why their charge won't go as far as last year, the software could access excluded cells to maintain performance.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> No, the capacity is already there. A software signal from Tesla unlocks it for a fee.


Then it's a terrible idea. Giving away expensive capacity that doesn't benefit their image or their customer, on the hopes of getting a better deal if the customer changes their mind.


----------



## CubaMark

*The Porsche "Mission E"*










The car seen here is the same as the concept seen at the recent Frankfurt auto show. Side3 reports chatter on Facebook suggests the production car will lose the “suicide doors” at the rear in favor of doors mounted in traditional fashion. The production car will have seating for five rather than four, according to rumors, and will come with three battery options. The base car with the smallest battery will retail for about $86,000, according to Porsche boss Oliver Blume.

Porsche claims the Mission E will be capable of an 80% charge in as little as 15 minutes, thanks to an 800 volt charging system. It is reported to have a range of 400 miles, although specifics about range with all battery options have not yet been made public. The car has a claimed 600 horsepower with performance to match. The quoted range is in the New European Testing Cycle. Actual EPA range will likely be very similar to the Model S 100 — 315 miles or so.

(Gas2 via Side3)​


----------



## Macfury

I've never seen a Porsche with even four people in it.


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> I've never seen a Porsche with even four people in it.



Or maybe you didn't realize that some were actually a Porsche model??? 

They do have several different models… and many of the gorgeous SUV models often are seen with four occupants…


----------



## Macfury

I would be able to read the word "Porsche" on them.


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> I would be able to read the word "Porsche" on them.



But only when you might have been following _behind_ them.


----------



## FeXL

Hell. 'Nother $5 billion in free taxpayer money, he'll be able to build 260 more!



> SMALL GOAL MISSED BY A WIDE MARGIN: Tesla Misses Model 3 Production Goals.





> The Silicon Valley electric-car maker built 260 of the Model 3s between July and September, the company said Monday in a statement. In August, the auto maker predicted it would build more than 1,500 Model 3s before cranking up production to 5,000 a week by the end of the fourth quarter.


More:



> “It is important to emphasize that there are no fundamental issues with the Model 3 production or supply chain,” Tesla said in a statement. “We understand what needs to be fixed and we are confident of addressing the manufacturing bottleneck issues in the near-term.”


Ya know, I have a fair amount of experience in production facilities that didn't have the luxury of relying on taxpayer-funded gov't handouts. If you can't come close to your projections, you definitely have a problem somewhere. In the real world, you close your doors.

If the problem isn't production or supply chain related, might I suggest that upper management could be the problem?


----------



## Macfury

The problem, apparently, is lack of automation. I've heard the Tesla requires more employee hour per unit than any known model.


----------



## pm-r

> If you can't come close to your projections, you definitely have a problem somewhere. In the real world, you close your doors.



I thought that some companies just jacked up the product's price to an almost absurd amount, and also restrict the product for a while and then wait for those who will pay for something almost unobtainable…


----------



## CubaMark

*And yet....*
*
Tesla's Model 3 Delays Don't Faze Investors*

Elon Musk promised a brisk ramp up as Tesla Inc. rolls out its most affordable electric car yet, but the model’s plodding start in its first quarter of production may actually be a blessing in disguise.

Tesla -- which made just 260 of the highly anticipated Model 3 sedans instead of the 1,500 forecast for the three months ended in September -- cited unspecified “bottlenecks” when reporting quarterly output Monday. Missing guidance by about 85 percent sends most companies’ shares into a tailspin, but Tesla stock rose as much as 2 percent Tuesday.

That’s because Tesla’s slower-than-expected ramp may end up being best for the money-losing automaker, even if it signals a longer wait for Model 3 reservation holders. The company’s customers and investors may not like the bottleneck news now, but this is CEO Musk’s first step into mass production, and his company has to get it right.

“It’s the lesser of two evils,” Jamie Albertine, senior analyst at Consumer Edge Research LLC, said in a phone interview. “Do you risk investor sentiment and hurt the stock price today or disappoint customers with a recall tomorrow? A recall on the Model 3 could be catastrophic.”

Tesla shares were up 1.3 percent to $345.39 as of 2:13 p.m. in New York after earlier climbing by the most intraday in more than two weeks.

(Bloomberg)​


----------



## FeXL

Well, d'uh.

If your company is backed by an unlimited amount of gov't supplied taxpayer money, why wouldn't you draw investors?

There ain't no risk.



CubaMark said:


> And yet....


----------



## Macfury

And here's the truth:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/behind...of-model-3-were-being-made-by-hand-1507321057



> Tesla Inc. blamed “production bottlenecks” for having made only a fraction of the promised 1,500 Model 3s, the $35,000 sedan designed to propel the luxury electric-car maker into the mainstream.
> 
> Unknown to analysts, investors and the hundreds of thousands of customers who signed up to buy it, as recently *as early September major portions of the Model 3 were still being banged out by hand*, away from the automated production line, according to people familiar with the matter.


----------



## Beej

There was an article a while back about how Tesla was breaking from auto manufacturing tradition by not doing a form of test run. It involved temporary equipment to make sure the facility's process worked. They bragged about skipping that step.

Closest I got in a couple minutes:
Tesla bets big as factory prepares for Model 3 final production tooling

Those interested can search "soft tooling" and Tesla to learn more.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> And here's the truth:


Nice... XX)


----------



## FeXL

Lawrence Solomon: Why the ‘e’ in e-car actually stands for evil



> Most of the virtue-signalling e-car purchasers have no reason to question the planners’ policies, and so are unaware of the costs of their choices to the rural environment. They also might not give a second’s thought to society’s wasteful investment in refuelling stations and related infrastructure. Or to the free ride they’re getting from their fellow citizens who drive gasoline-fuelled vehicles, whose taxes at the pump help pay for the roads electric cars proudly coast on.


No argument...


----------



## Macfury

Government's drive for electric vehicles s all about their control of electricity supplies. They don't control gasoline, diesel and propane and it makes them feel there's too much freedom going on out there.

If you had 100% adoption of electric vehicles, you would see it become illegal to plug into anything but a government approved outlet in your home selling electricity at a high-tax rate. Want the peons off the roads? Flip a switch and shut the system down.




FeXL said:


> Lawrence Solomon: Why the ‘e’ in e-car actually stands for evil
> 
> 
> 
> No argument...


----------



## pm-r

> _*They don't control gasoline, diesel and propane*_ and it makes them feel there's too much freedom going on out there.



They may not have much _*control*_ over them, but they're sure in H*ll involved and control and exert all the taxes on them!!!


----------



## Macfury

pm-r said:


> They may not have much _*control*_ over them, but they're sure in H*ll involved and control and exert all the taxes on them!!!


It's too much as it is. They want to own the fuel now.


----------



## FeXL

Hope they fix this soon. Quicker they get most Mercedes' driver's hands off the steering wheel, the better... 

Driverless Cars Are Giving Engineers a Fuel Economy Headache



> Judging from General Motors Co.’s test cars and Elon Musk’s predictions, the world is headed toward a future that’s both driverless and all-electric. In reality, autonomy and battery power could end up being at odds.
> 
> That’s because self-driving technology is a huge power drain. Some of today’s prototypes for fully autonomous systems consume two to four kilowatts of electricity -- the equivalent of having 50 to 100 laptops continuously running in the trunk, according to BorgWarner Inc. *The supplier of vehicle propulsion systems expects the first autonomous cars -- likely robotaxis that are constantly on the road -- will be too energy-hungry to run on battery power alone.*


M'bold.

Heaven forbid you turn on the A/C or heater...

More:



> The autonomous features on a Level 4 or 5 vehicle, which can operate without human intervention, devour so much power that it makes meeting fuel economy and carbon emissions targets five to 10 percent harder, according to Chris Thomas, BorgWarner’s chief technology officer.


----------



## SINC

Yep, great idea.


----------



## FeXL

<snort> Hope they weren't from the assembly line or those productions quotas are going to be even harder to hit... 

Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week



> Luxury electric vehicle maker Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) fired about 400 employees this week, including associates, team leaders and supervisors, a former employee told Reuters on Friday.
> 
> The dismissals were a result of a company-wide annual review, Tesla said in an emailed statement, without confirming the number of employees leaving the company.
> 
> “It’s about 400 people ranging from associates to team leaders to supervisors. We don’t know how high up it went,” said the former employee, who worked on the assembly line and did not want to be identified.


Must be running out of gov't supplied taxpayer cash. Time to hit up a few national leaders for a coupla billion in "incentives", which are by no means to be interpreted as "subsidies"...


----------



## Macfury

They should pre-sell a million additional EVs that operate on a 9-volt battery, to be delivered in 2029.



FeXL said:


> <snort> Hope they weren't from the assembly line or those productions quotas are going to be even harder to hit...
> 
> Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week
> 
> 
> 
> Must be running out of gov't supplied taxpayer cash. Time to hit up a few national leaders for a coupla billion in "incentives", which are by no means to be interpreted as "subsidies"...


----------



## FeXL

Let's talk Tesla's state of the art production line s'more.

Tesla’s New Car Smell



> As I watched Tesla’s messy, hiccuping line, with workers dashing in to fix faulty parts in place, my mind travelled back to the Honda plant I had visited years ago in Marysville, Ohio. Clean, calm, everything moved smoothly. I was so shocked by the contrast that I imprudently voiced my concern. That didn’t go over well with my fellow Tesla owners. I was a killjoy, I was calling their choice into question.


More:



> The Electrek blog discusses replac[ing] Model 3 headlights, battery, seats and more while going through ‘production hell’.
> 
> Another industry blog, the felicitously named Daily Kanban, tells us, also after the Tesla official announcement, how Tesla’s “Pilot” Model 3 Body Line Still In Development Near Detroit.


Further:



> _ To see just how limited, consider the rate of output. For the past 15 months and near future, the output is equivalent to 264 cars per day. If the Fremont factory is running three shifts, 11 cars are produced every hour. This is equivalent to a cycle time or takt time of 5.5 minutes.
> 
> This would be a tragic cycle time. Most car lines aim for run times between 1 and 2 minutes per station. For example BMW’s Spartanburg plant produces 1400 units per day which yields a cycle time of 1 min.”_​


Further, yet:



> *Moving from fewer than 100K cars a year to 500K and up isn’t “more of the same”, it can’t be achieved through clever, conventional-wisdom-defying improvisation. That sort of growth is a bold jump in scale that requires a smooth, well-oiled and well-understood manufacturing process.*


Yeah, my bold.

It's one thing to be an entrepreneur & break ground no one else has ever plowed. It's quite another to try to reinvent the wheel.


----------



## Macfury

But a great business model for Tesla--engaging fools who like to pay for cars before they're built! 

By the way, I'm opening a restaurant next year--buy your delicious meals now online.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> But a great business model for Tesla--engaging fools who like to pay for cars before they're built!
> 
> By the way, I'm opening a restaurant next year--buy your delicious meals now online.


I've been looking for a get-rich-quick-scheme for early retirement. Maybe I can do the same thing with craft beer. Promise wunnerful beers in only a year (gotta age in bourbon barrels, doncha know), pay for it now, 11 months of sales, then bail somewhere remote with all my cash in a satchel. I can pro'bly get a gov't grant or two. You know, a billion here, a billion there. Purdy soon we're talkin' real money. :greedy:

We gotta talk. Call me...


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> By the way, I'm opening a restaurant next year--buy your delicious meals now online.


You need to build a cult following as well. Then others will attack naysayers on your behalf. Make it not worth criticizing your yet to be restaurant.


----------



## SINC

Yep, it's a tried and true model used by many before you.


----------



## Macfury

Sustainable unicorn steaks, cooked rare, encrusted in sequestered carbon and served with rainbow BBQ sauce!



Beej said:


> You need to build a cult following as well. Then others will attack naysayers on your behalf. Make it not worth criticizing your yet to be restaurant.


----------



## FeXL

Ummm...is that rainbow BBQ sauce _organic_?


----------



## FeXL

Let's talk Tesla s'more!

This outta be good:

Tesla has reached a deal to build a factory in China



> Tesla has made an arrangement with Shanghai’s government to built a manufacturing plant in the city’s free-trade zone, according to The Wall Street Journal, which cites reports from people briefed on the company’s plans.
> 
> The WSJ reports that Tesla will own the factory, rather than partner with a local manufacturer, as it typically the case. Chinese officials have recently begun to consider relaxing some of the more stringent rules concerning local partners, as a way to encourage electric vehicle manufacturers. The arrangement would be the “first of its kind for a foreign auto maker,” but will likely not allow Tesla to avoid a 25 percent import tariff.
> 
> In June, Tesla confirmed that it was in talks to build a factory in Shanghai, ending months of speculation about the company’s plans. At the time, a spokesperson explained that while the company anticipated keeping most of its production in the US, it did “need to establish local factories to ensure affordability for the markets they serve.”


An' this wunnderful news!

Tesla strikes another deal that shows it's about to turn the car insurance world upside down

First, this little gem:



> Tesla CEO Elon Musk has said that insurance agencies _*should*_ adjust their prices for Tesla vehicles because the cars come with Autopilot, the company's advanced driver-assistance feature.


Shoulda, woulda, coulda...

Next, this laugh-a-minute:



> *Its benefits include replacing Teslas damaged beyond repair within one year.*


M'bold.

:yikes:

You heard it here, folks. You only have to wait a maximum of one year for a replacement vehicle!!! Stunning...

They can't get year old orders out the door yet they can promise you a replacement vehicle after a write-off in less than 12 months. Here, pull the other one...

Only the left would buy into that...Charlie Foxtrot.

And, not news to anyone paying attention:

It's Confirmed: Without Government Subsidies, Tesla Sales Implode



> According to the latest data from the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA), sales of Electrically Chargeable Vehicles (which include plug-in hybrids) in Q1 of 2017 were brisk across much of Europe: they rose by 80% Y/Y in eco-friendly Sweden, 78% in Germany, just over 40% in Belgium and grew by roughly 30% across the European Union... but not in Denmark: here sales cratered by over 60% for one simple reason: *the government phased out taxpayer subsidies.*


Links' bold.

Difficult to believe, I know...

More:



> As Bloomberg writes, and as Elon Musk knows all too well, the results confirm *that "clean-energy vehicles aren’t attractive enough to compete without some form of taxpayer-backed subsidy.*"


Links' bold.

Yep.


----------



## CubaMark

*Honda unveils all-electric sports car concept based on new electric platform*










Honda is among the several automakers unveiling new electric vehicle concepts at the Tokyo Motor Show today.

The automaker brought a new retro-looking all-electric sports car concept based on a new electric platform that they plan to bring to market in 2019.

At the Frankfurt Motor Show last month, Honda surprised by unveiling a new retro-looking urban electric vehicle concept and announcing that they would bring their next all-electric vehicle to market in 2019 based on this concept.

Now the new ‘Honda Sports EV Concept’ appears to be in the same vein, but the automaker, unfortunately, didn’t announce any production for this particular version.
(Electrek)​


----------



## SINC

Another viewpoint on electric cars.

*Why we don't need electric cars, but need to get rid of cars*

https://www.treehugger.com/cars/we-...medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Another viewpoint on electric cars.
> 
> *Why we don't need electric cars, but need to get rid of cars*
> 
> https://www.treehugger.com/cars/we-...medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark


This is a very important point, SINC, thanks for raising it. There is a major cultural shift that will have to happen, though, to make people want to give up having their own set of wheels. In North America specifically, that will take a looooong time to accomplish, given our geography and the ongoing unwillingness of governments to underwrite the kinds of mass transit systems that are required to facilitate that shift. Any of you ever take VIA's Ocean line beyond Quebec City? Yeah, you guys know what I'm talking about. 

And Halifax's never-bloody-ending debate over whether to embrace LRT is simply infuriating... they have an under-utilized rail line that passes through or very near the bedroom communities and tracks that go right down to the Halifax waterfront, and yet every study they commission claims it is financially non-viable, while every public poll indicates _get the damn thing built, already!_.


----------



## Macfury

Almost all of the transit systems in Canada are non-viable. Nobody wants to buy a ticket sold at actual cost. If you think a $10 transit ride beats driving a car, go for it! Let economics guide everyone's choices, car or transit. 

No cultural shift is needed. That's just orgasm fodder for green twerps living in their parents' basements.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> No cultural shift is needed. That's just orgasm fodder for green twerps living in their parents' basements.


So you're just fine with sitting in four lanes of traffic, moving at 5km/h, breathing in gasoline and diesel exhaust. Okay, then. Natural selection at its best!


----------



## Rps

Actually I think we have two questions to ask on this issue. 1. What are we actually trying to achieve? 2.Where is it logical to try and achieve it?

If we ask the right questions that usually points us in the direction of getting the right ( although not always wanted ) answer.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> So you're just fine with sitting in four lanes of traffic, moving at 5km/h, breathing in gasoline and diesel exhaust. Okay, then. Natural selection at its best!


Here's the thing. I live in a small town. If I want to shop for anything beyond everyday needs it is 50-150 kms to the town or city that has whatever items I need. We do get a passenger train through about once every 2 years. I believe it costs about $5000 to ride but it won't bring us back home. We do get a bus once a day, but would have to stay overnight before coming back home. Have not priced it lately but even a ride to the next town would probably be $50 each way. 

Meanwhile some greenie weenie wants to tell me I can't drive at all, or should he condescend to allow me to drive, it has to be an all electric car that might or might not have sufficient range to get me home again. Let me tell you the last thing an all day shopping trip to the little-big city needs is two extended stops in Fort Macleod to partially recharge batteries.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> .... some greenie weenie wants to tell me I can't drive at all, or should he condescend to allow me to drive, it has to be an all electric car that might or might not have sufficient range to get me home again.


That's a wee bit hyperbolic, no?

Obviously LRT infrastructure development cannot meet the needs of non-urbanites who need transportation. Individualized transport will always be a necessity, and no "greenie weenie" is going to come and take your Silverado from you (this ain't gun control).

But urban areas absolutely should be working toward making individual transport as unnecessary as possible through the development of efficient and affordable transit systems, within reasonable limits.


----------



## Rps

CubaMark said:


> That's a wee bit hyperbolic, no?
> 
> Obviously LRT infrastructure development cannot meet the needs of non-urbanites who need transportation. Individualized transport will always be a necessity, and no "greenie weenie" is going to come and take your Silverado from you (this ain't gun control).
> 
> But urban areas absolutely should be working toward making individual transport as unnecessary as possible through the development of efficient and affordable transit systems, within reasonable limits.


I agree...cities are not rural areas. Having said that, city buses are nothing more than mobile garbage dumps.....until we see some creature comforts built into bus service the car might still rule. That said if you work in say Toronto, but take the GO Train it could be an extra 4 hours on your work day where a car might only be an extra 2....so we must look at time here. Electric cars are not really the answer as we may be substituting one form of eco problem to a future another.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> So you're just fine with sitting in four lanes of traffic, moving at 5km/h, breathing in gasoline and diesel exhaust. Okay, then. Natural selection at its best!


Even in Toronto, that 5-km scenario is rare. Yes, I would rather ride in a car moving slowly than packed like a sardine in some bus or subway car. And despite TTC costs being subsidized, the level of traffic suggests that driving is worth it for many residents.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Actually I think we have two questions to ask on this issue. 1. What are we actually trying to achieve? 2.Where is it logical to try and achieve it?
> 
> If we ask the right questions that usually points us in the direction of getting the right ( although not always wanted ) answer.


Exactly. Why try to make decisions for others? If you love mass transit, use it. If you're more comfortable in a car, even though it's sometimes (but by no means always) slow, then use a car.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> There is a major cultural shift that will have to happen, though, to make people want to give up having their own set of wheels.


An unnecessary cultural shift. There's nothing wrong with people wanting their own space and to use their own stuff.



> But urban areas absolutely should be working toward making individual transport as unnecessary as possible


Not true. People want their own space (see above). Seeing that desire as something to be made unnecessary is optimizing people to suit a system, instead of optimizing a system to suit the people.


----------



## FeXL

A stunning achievement. I wonder how many weeks it took...

Linky.



> OMG, "all the way to Detroit" from California before breaking down??? It truly *is* a revolutionary car for the masses!


----------



## Macfury

Tesla delays Model 3 volume production amid biggest-ever quarterly loss - Business - CBC News

Not encouraging.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Not encouraging.


On the contrary... beejacon


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> Tesla delays Model 3 volume production amid biggest-ever quarterly loss - Business - CBC News
> 
> Not encouraging.


Sounds like skipping the "soft-tooling" step was a bad idea.


----------



## FeXL

This is fabulous. Three headlines:

We Don't Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Tesla shares down 5%
> 
> ...
> 
> Tesla: More Bad News.
> 
> ...
> 
> Scott+Scott, Attorneys at Law, LLP Investigates Tesla, Inc. (TSLA) for Potential Breaches of Fiduciary Duty by Its Board of Directors


----------



## Macfury

Sustainable? Well not financially sustainable without government funding, at any rate.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/02/tesla_share_price_drop_tax_break/



> Tesla's share price took a dive Thursday morning as Republicans in Congress revealed they were planning to kill off a US federal tax credit for electric vehicles.
> 
> The proposed House tax bill calls for an immediate repeal of the $7,500-per-vehicle credit: something that would have an immediate knock-on impact for Tesla given that it only produces electric cars.
> 
> Its share price fell more than seven per cent to about $296 apiece from Wednesday's $321. The draft law emerged as the Elon-Musk-led automaker announced its worst-ever quarter, recording a $671m loss and admitting it had not met its production target for its new Model 3 car, producing just 220 of them against its 1,500 target.
> 
> Economists believe that the tax credit is a key driver for electric car sales, and cite the example of when the state of Georgia cut its $5,000 tax credit and saw sales of electric cars slump from 1,400 a month to just 100 a month in response.


----------



## FeXL

Further to the above (and with the typical _Wired_ spin...).

Congress' Plan to Kill the Electric Car Tax Credit Could Kill Electric Cars



> Created as part of the 2009 stimulus bill, this credit was meant to make the price of a planet-saving EV at least sort of comparable to one powered by gasoline, at least until battery and electric power generation technology get cheaper. That is happening: *New research from the Boston Consulting Group predicts EVs will become price comparable between 2025 and 2030.* But the average new vehicle is still about $2,400 less expensive than the average new electric vehicle, according to Kelley Blue Book. Until those numbers even out, the tax credit helps the cost and environmentally conscious buyers close the gap.


M'bold.

So, lemme git this straight: We're s'pose ta subsidize all new EV purchases with taxpayers money until 2030? Or until such time as they actually become price competitive? Maybe 2025? Maybe 2050?

Pull the other one...


----------



## eMacMan

No mention as to where the billion dollars in development costs came from. 
https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/jim-motavalli/here-comes-first-big-electric-truck-fleet


----------



## FeXL

Another narrative shot to hell.

Motor Mouth: A few more inconvenient truths about EV CO2 emissions-Tesla battery production releases as much carbon dioxide as eight years of gasoline driving 



> Indeed, according to a recent Swedish report, _*Tesla battery production releases as much CO2 as eight years of gasoline driving*_. Yes, according to the IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute, manufacturing every kilowatt-hour of lithium-ion battery storage — the Model S has up to 100 kW-hr — releases 150 to 200 kilograms of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. In other words, a Model S has accounted for about 17.5 tons of C02 even before it has used a mile of coal-fired electricity.
> 
> In other words, the American — and certainly the Chinese — government might be better off spending those hard-to-come-by tax dollars on cleaning up its coal production rather than converting all our cars to batteries.


Bold mine.


----------



## CubaMark

*Canadian grocery chain orders 25 Tesla electric Semi trucks*










Tesla’s Semi is off to a promising start, despite there being no official pricing information available yet: In addition to a Walmart pilot, Canadian grocery giant Loblaw is purchasing 25 of the heavy duty all-electric transport trucks (via Canadian Press), with a $5,000 deposit for each upfront even though pricing is TBD for the vehicle, which is supposed to start shipping in 2019.

Loblaw has a target of running a fully electric vehicle fleet to support its stores, as part of a goal of reducing its emissions impact by 2030. The plan is to eventually have as many as 350 zero-emission vehicles in operation by that time, and taking those diesel cars off the road could help it reduce its carbon footprint by the equivalent of taking around 20,000 consumer cars with internal combustion engines off the road.
(TechCrunch)​


----------



## FeXL

Yeah. Let's talk about those Tesla trucks fer a minute, shall we?

Do the math: Elon Musk's claims of fast charging and 500-mile range just don't add up



> Now, here’s where those numbers go just slightly awry. Mr. Musk’s sleek Model S — a bit of a porker but aerodynamically efficient nonetheless — needs just a hair under 0.33 kilowatt-hours to travel one mile. So, if it, too, were to claim a 400-mile range, it would need about a 135 kW-h battery. Now, I am pretty sure that it doesn’t take a degree in rocket science to figure out that one of those calculations — a Model S needing 135 kW-hr to travel 400 miles or a full-sized 18-wheeler requiring just 300 kW-hr to do the same — is a little wonky. The truck is, after all, about 15 times heavier and probably has at least three times the aerodynamic resistance.


Questions, questions, questions...

Moar taxpayer funded subsidies & we'll get this figgered out!!!


----------



## FeXL

So, Tesla can't weld car panels together. And their QC sucks. When this guy goes tits up my schadenfreude smile is going to be this big —>

Build Fast, Fix Later: Tesla Employees Say 90% Of Model S/X Cars Fail Quality Checks After Assembly



> Last month we highlighted a report from Automotive News which suggested that Tesla's Model 3 production misses might have been the result of a rather basic and embarrassing problem...the company hadn't yet figured out how to weld. As automotive manufacturing consultant Michael Tracy of Agile Group pointed out, the clues of Tesla's steel problems came from a video posted by Musk himself of the Model 3 assembly line. Referencing Musk's video, Tracy said a well functioning auto assembly line would not produce the sparks seen in the video below which are symptomatic of welds spots overheating or poor alignment of components.
> 
> ...
> 
> And while it's difficult to believe that Tesla hasn't been able to iron out simplistic assembly line issues like the proper alignment of welds, a new report from several current and former employees would seem to lend some credence to Tracy's hypothesis. *As Reuters notes today, interviews with nine "current and former employees" revealed that 90% of all Model S and Model X vehicles that roll off the assembly line fail quality control checks*...which compares to roughly 10% for Toyota.


M'bold.

Excellent read.

And, why am I not surprised that Tesla can't even get a deposit refunded in a timely fashion, let alone build cars?

Canceling Your Model 3 Deposit? Don't Count on a Timely Refund



> Tesla owes Shashank Chitti $1,000.
> 
> That’s how much the Bay Area tech consultant paid to reserve a Model 3, the automaker's highly anticipated electric sedan for the masses. Chitti was among tens of thousands of people who waited in line to reserve the car sight unseen, hours before Tesla CEO Elon Musk revealed it to the world on March 31, 2016. In the days following the Model 3's debut, hundreds of thousands more people placed deposits, netting the company what amounts to a humongous interest-free loan. How humongous? According to its latest earnings report, Tesla holds $616 million in customer deposits.
> 
> ...
> 
> Chitti cancelled his reservation on May 17, 2017. He says he was tired of waiting and frustrated by Tesla's lack of transparency. Yet more than two months later, he hasn't received his refund. "Every time I reach out I get the same explanation: They have a lot of cancellations to process, they'll prioritize my request, and that my refund should go out in the next batch," he says.
> 
> His experience is not unique. Many deposit holders have taken to Twitter to complain to Musk directly about their late refunds. In a poll posted to the popular Tesla Motors Forum, a majority of respondents reported waiting more than a month to receive their reimbursement. On other message boards, claims of 5-, 6-, and 7-week waits are common, and many say they’ve held out even longer.


Moar free taxpayer money!!!


----------



## FeXL

So, let's talk Tesla trucks s'more.

Tesla truck ‘will require power of 4,000 homes to recharge’



> Tesla’s recently unveiled electric truck will require the equivalent power used by up to 4,000 homes to recharge, says Energy Live News.
> 
> That’s according to new analysis by an energy consultancy, which calculated it based on the range and charge time for the megacharger.
> 
> Aurora Energy Research said the power needed for the megacharger to fill a battery in 30 minutes would be 1,600kW.
> 
> The average house in the UK uses around 4,000kWh of electricity a year, which means around 0.5kW on average.
> 
> That’s 1/3,200th of the megacharger capacity per house on average.


More:



> Talkshop note: There are nearly 2 million semi trucks in operation in the U.S.


And, with a range of 500 miles (from my link in post #1153 just above) that means the trucks will need to be recharged daily, largely from coal power. 

And what happens to the battery life in the cold? And how much juice is required to run heating or A/C? Or merely to haul the heavy batteries?

Tell me again precisely how this expensive, taxpayer funded fiasco "Saves the Planet"?


----------



## Macfury

I'm guessing the truck will never be built.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> So, let's talk Tesla trucks s'more.
> 
> Tesla truck ‘will require power of 4,000 homes to recharge’
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> And, with a range of 500 miles (from my link in post #1153 just above) that means the trucks will need to be recharged daily, largely from coal power.
> 
> And what happens to the battery life in the cold? And how much juice is required to run heating or A/C? Or merely to haul the heavy batteries?
> 
> Tell me again precisely how this expensive, taxpayer funded fiasco "Saves the Planet"?


Put another way it will draw 7200amps at 220Volts. The typical modern home is wired to handle up to 100 amps at 220Volts.


----------



## FeXL

Not a surprise to anyone paying attention.

Ontario will miss its 2020 electric-vehicle target, experts say



> Ontario is envisioning a future in which millions of electric vehicles are on the roads, but analysts predict consumer uptake will remain far off the government target for 2020, despite tens of millions of dollars in subsidies.
> 
> The Liberal government has been encouraging electric vehicle sales by doling out $75 million in rebates to vehicle owners, offering various other incentives and programs, installing a network of charging stations and spending $1 million to open an electric vehicle education centre.
> 
> But that so far hasn’t translated into vast numbers of vehicles. The official data for 2017 isn’t yet available, but at the end of last year, electric vehicles represented less than 1 per cent of all passenger vehicle sales in Ontario.
> 
> In just two years, by 2020, the government hopes to see that number increase to 5 per cent.
> 
> It can’t be done, analysts say.
> 
> *“The chances of meeting it aren’t low, they’re zero,” said auto industry analyst Dennis DesRosiers.* “In the auto sector, all roads lead to electric, it just happens to be that the road to serious acceptance of them is probably at least 2030 and more likely 2040, 2050.”


My bold.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I'm guessing the truck will never be built.


That would be an interesting development.

Tesla's orders for the Semi are growing.... it's its own first customer, looking to replace Tesla's own fleet of 100 semi transport trucks.


Anhauser-Busch just announced an order of 40 (they're also buying Nikola Motors electric trucks)
DHL ordered 10

That's on top of the 25 for Loblaw's and I think there was another that I can't recall as yet. These are orders for a truck that won't be delivered for another couple of years, so expect the number of countries putting in orders to grow considerably before then.


----------



## Macfury

Lots of orders for sure. The deposit money will be used to stop up Tesla's other major leaks. Will they hand craft the trucks like the non-automated car line at Tesla? The PR value to the companies playing to green-nerd customers will be immense---that's all they may get for their investment.



CubaMark said:


> That would be an interesting development.
> 
> Tesla's orders for the Semi are growing.... it's its own first customer, looking to replace Tesla's own fleet of 100 semi transport trucks.
> 
> 
> Anhauser-Busch just announced an order of 40 (they're also buying Nikola Motors electric trucks)
> DHL ordered 10
> 
> That's on top of the 25 for Loblaw's and I think there was another that I can't recall as yet. These are orders for a truck that won't be delivered for another couple of years, so expect the number of countries putting in orders to grow considerably before then.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Will they hand craft the trucks like the non-automated car line at Tesla?


Is it your intention to misrepresent Tesla's production process, or are you basing what you've said on the Tesla-hating media outlets and their fabrications from October of this year?

Tesla's statement when that allegation first appeared:


> "This reporting is fundamentally wrong and misleading. We are still in the beginning of our production ramp, but every Model 3 is being built on the Model 3 production line, which is fully installed, powered on, producing vehicles, and increasing in automation every day.
> 
> However, every vehicle manufacturing line in the world has both manual and automated processes, including the Model S and Model X line today. Contrary to the Journal's reporting, this is not some revelation. As we've always acknowledged, it will take time to fine-tune the line for higher volumes, but as we have also said, there are no fundamental issues with Model 3 production or its supply chain, and we are confident in addressing the manufacturing bottleneck issues in the near-term. We are simply working through the S-curve of production that we drew out for the world to see at our launch event in July.
> 
> There's a reason it's called production hell."
> (CNBC)​


Tesla has also had to address questions about quality recently, but as is usually the case, the initial allegation is what captures folks' attention, not the clarification / correction that follows: Tesla Week: Model 3 Update, Quality Questioned, Stealing Porsche Customers


----------



## Macfury

Tesla has addressed the question? Well, there's my proof it was all a lie!


----------



## FeXL

Tesla's production process speaks for itself. Read the numbers in articles already posted on this thread. They're crap compared to the real world.

As to the QC issues, I trust a Tesla spokesman's explanation about as much as I trust Musk himself: zero to none...

Like I noted earlier, they can't even manage to get a deposit refund back in a timely fashion. How the hell do they expect to churn out car & trucks?

Plus, recall that none of this would be happening without massive, taxpayer-funded gov't subsidies on the order of 10 figures not only to Musk but to would-be buyers.



CubaMark said:


> Is it your intention to misrepresent Tesla's production process...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Plus, recall that none of this would be happening without massive, taxpayer-funded gov't subsidies on the order of 10 figures not only to Musk.


What is the existing amount of debt owed by Tesla to the U.S. taxpayer?



FeXL said:


> .... but to would-be buyers.


Musk himself has argued that those incentives should be abolished:



> Listening to the Tesla May 3, 2017, quarterly financial results conference call, Elon Musk is practically begging to be relieved of this tax subsidy. From the 1Q 2017 transcript *here*:
> 
> _"And in fact the incentives give us a relative disadvantage. Tesla has succeeded in spite of the incentives not because of them." - Elon Musk, May 3, 2017_​
> For the full context about those sentences, here's what Elon said that led up to his conclusion:
> 
> _"Elon Reeve Musk - Tesla Motors, Inc.
> 
> Yeah, absolutely. And I should perhaps touch again on this whole notion of - it's almost like over the years there's been all these sort of irritating articles like Tesla survives because of government subsidies and tax credits. It drives me crazy. Here's what those fools don't realize. If Tesla is not alone in the car industry, but all those things would be material if we were the only car company in existence. We are not. There are many car companies. What matters is whether we have a relative advantage in the market." - Elon Musk, May 3, 2017_​
> Musk's argument is that the tax subsidies are worth more to Tesla's competitors than to Tesla, and that therefore Tesla would better off without them, relatively speaking. Musk has made this argument in previous forums before, including on a previous earnings call as I recall, in the context of California's ZEV (zero emissions vehicle) credits, which Tesla is able to sell to other automakers as a purely politically engineered 100% gross margin profit. He made the argument on the 1Q 2017 earnings call again. In that ZEV case, his argument is that Tesla sells these $5,000-a-pop credits to other automakers at a discount, whereas those automakers make and consume some of those $5,000-a-pop credits internally without applying such as discount.
> 
> _"So Tesla's competitive advantage improves as the incentives go away. This continues to be something that is not well understood." - Elon Musk, May 3, 2017_​


Musk appears to be getting what he asked for, in any case:

*GOP tax plan kills EV credit, that's bad news for Tesla* - Business Insider​
And further to the mythology of Tesla's "unfair" subsidies:

*Tesla received only a fraction of the subsidies the Big Three and oil industry have received/* | Electrek​
And then there's this:

*How Tesla and GM Could Suffer Under Republican GOP Tax Plan* | Fortune​


----------



## Macfury

Oh man, here comes the oild subsidy myth again. You've had your ass handed to you on this three times already and you're still willing to drag it out again. How much does Tesla owe taxpayers--nothing, because the subsidies were grants not loans. Why ask such a question? They still cost the same.

However, none of what you've said in the last post indicates that Tesla is poised for either success, or for delivering an EV truck to market.


----------



## FeXL

I seriously don't know if its basic stupidity or wilful ignorance I'm dealing with here...



CubaMark said:


> Blah. Blah. Blah. F'ing blah...


----------



## FeXL

Further on this bull$h!t...

The Stunning Energy Cost Of Tesla’s Semi-Truck



> Elon Musk’s reliance on shock-and-awe tactics and unjustifiably lofty performance projections is creating serious problems for the so-called visionary as a growing number of experts have come forward to explain that *many of his claims would defy the laws of physics.*
> 
> The latest group to call bulls--- is Aurora Energy Research, a European consultancy which estimated that Tesla’s electric haulage truck will require the same energy as up to 4,000 homes to recharge – a stunning claim that would seem to raise serious questions about the projects viability, according to the Financial Times.


Yeah, my bold.

But, hey: some people on these boards see him as a god. Maybe all he has to do is snap his fingers & rewrite the laws of physics...


More:



> _*According to these scientists, modern battery technology is incapable of supporting anything close to the 30-minute charging time Musk has promised for the new Tesla semi-truck.*_


Related:

Tesla's Inconvenient Truth's



> Sales are not ramping as planned.
> 
> Gigafactory is struggling to get underway.
> 
> Still a lot of inventory not reflected on the website.
> 
> Production cutbacks appear to have begun.
> 
> Cash burn is at nose-bleed levels.


More:



> *Even notorious Tesla bull Adam Jonas at Morgan Stanley seems to be faltering on his belief Tesla is sustainable in its current trajectory.* In a recent note to investors he shared:
> 
> _One reason it may make sense for Tesla to collaborate more or even combine with SpaceX is that it may become increasingly difficult for Tesla to continue as an independent company, Jonas said.
> 
> For example, the company could soon face stiff competition from established automakers and deep-pocketed tech firms. Large tech firms in particular will have "arguably superior access to capital, talent and business models that can monetize vehicle data and content opportunities," he said."_​


My bold.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> But, hey: some people on these boards see him as a god. Maybe all he has to do is snap his fingers & rewrite the laws of physics...


Tesla spokespeople have already dealt with this issue...


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Tesla spokespeople have already dealt with this issue...


Hell, _I'm_ convinced...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Oh man, here comes the oild subsidy myth again. You've had your ass handed to you on this three times already and you're still willing to drag it out again.


What? Where / when the hell did that happen? I remember we threw numbers and reports at one another awhile back, none of which led me to accept in any way, shape or form that the fossil fuel industry receives fewer incentives than alternative energy initiatives. Just because someone stops arguing with you does not mean you've won... it means your opponent is tired of banging his head against the wall.



Macfury said:


> How much does Tesla owe taxpayers--nothing, because the subsidies were grants not loans. Why ask such a question? They still cost the same.


So you're criticizing something about which you have no actual numbers. Yup, sounds about right. A quick search for "Tesla" and "grants" turns up $10-million from California to assist Tesla in setting up the Model X plant in that state (that was to create 1500 jobs), and that money was matched by $50-million from Tesla. Massachusetts ponied up $20-million for Tesla AND General Electric AND other players on energy storage projects (that's not $20-million each, it's split up - Tesla received $2.3-million for two separate projects). 

So far, that's small change. 

And as for the loans, if you'll recall, in 2013, NINE years earlier than planned:

_Elon Musk’s “Summer of Revenge Tour” continues. His electric-car company, Tesla Motors, just cut the government a* $451.8 million check*, which means that Tesla has *paid off its entire Department of Energy loan plus interest*. “Following this payment, Tesla will be the only American car company to have fully repaid the government,” the company boasted (emphasis Tesla’s)._​


> However, none of what you've said in the last post indicates that Tesla is poised for either success, or for delivering an EV truck to market.


Of course not. But the orders from various companies in the USA and Canada are an indication that the concept of an electric Semi isn't unreasonable to some CEOs who are not exactly the kinds of folk who like to lose money. I don't see any government grants or loans at play with the Tesla Semi... I do see companies forking over between $5000 to $20,000 a pop to pre-order 'em though.

Do you have any reasoned arguments, or just your usual hate-on for anything that doesn't burn dead dinosaurs to get you from point A to B?


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> What? Where / when the hell did that happen? I remember we threw numbers and reports at one another awhile back, none of which led me to accept in any way, shape or form that the fossil fuel industry receives fewer incentives than alternative energy initiatives. Just because someone stops arguing with you does not mean you've won... it means your opponent is tired of banging his head against the wall.


Your source indicated that an oil and gas subsidy occurred when the government didn't tax oil and gas more heavily than other industries as the author wanted. Your author said that writing off business expenses was a subsidy for oil and gas--but not for "green" enterprises. It wasn't you banging your head against the wall--it was your head exploding.




CubaMark said:


> So you're criticizing something about which you have no actual numbers. Yup, sounds about right.


$7,500 per car.



CubaMark said:


> Of course not. But the orders from various companies in the USA and Canada are an indication that the concept of an electric Semi isn't unreasonable to some CEOs who are not exactly the kinds of folk who like to lose money.


Putting a deposit down on a green truck that will never be built makes for a busy news cycle. It's small potatoes for the CEOs.



CubaMark said:


> ...or just your usual hate-on for anything that doesn't burn dead dinosaurs to get you from point A to B?


Just a reaction to your electrophelia. I couldn't care less what people choose to drive. Unencumbered choice is the most important factor.


----------



## FeXL

You've been trotting out this same weak, pathetic excuse to camouflage the fact that you are utterly incapable of forging an empirical evidence supported defence for your position for years now.

How about some fresh material? Something like, "You know, after careful consideration of all the evidence you have compiled on the topic, I now see the error in my ways. You are correct. Thank you for the free education..."

XX)



CubaMark said:


> Just because someone stops arguing with you does not mean you've won... it means your opponent is tired of banging his head against the wall.


----------



## FeXL

Question: Which country pays more taxes? Canada or the US? No dancing around, no qualifications, nothing. Canada or the US?



CubaMark said:


> What? Where / when the hell did that happen? I remember we threw numbers and reports at one another awhile back, none of which led me to accept in any way, shape or form that the fossil fuel industry receives fewer incentives than alternative energy initiatives.


----------



## Rps

FeXL are you talking individuals ( here the Americans pay more than we do ) or as a country over all?


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL are you talking individuals ( here the Americans pay more than we do ) or as a country over all?


As a country.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, that is a difficult question to answer as what determiner would you use to arrive at a conclusion. You can't use dollar amount as both our systems use a progressive tax rate and, inclusion of State or Provincial taxes and other taxes, assessments and fees are hard to capture and roll up into a single figure. Do we use the amount of monies as a percent of GDP, again hard to put a finger on. For the most part, you can look at rates but population skews that dollar result.... so what is the concept of "most" or "higher" that you are looking for.

Im not trying to be a smart ass here... many times the terms and criteria we use to define a problem actually create a paradigm . However, this is a really good discussion question..... because what I think you are really asking is " are we getting value for our money"....


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> You can't use dollar amount... <snip>


You most certainly can _not._ Thank you.

Which, BTW, is precisely my point to CM. He screams blue murder that carbon based energy gets more subsidies than alternative energy does. And, if all we look at is gross dollars then no $h!t. However, that methodology is flawed.

As has been pointed out to his thick, unyielding, Prog skull numerous times on these boards, carbon based energy is the lion's share of energy produced the world over. Of course, _in gross dollars_, the system that produces nearly >85% of the planet's energy is going to get the most subsidies. As opposed to say, the pi$$ant 2% that alternative energy produces. Nobody, save him, is arguing that.

_*However, once this is broken down into subsidy $/unit of energy produced, wind & solar have received far more subsidies than carbon based ever has.*_

And that's precisely what my analogy indicates. The US (=carbon based energy), in gross $$, pays more in taxes than Canada (=alternative energy) does. However, if you divide gross $$ by the population, on a per person basis (=unit of energy produced), Canadian citizens pay more taxes than US citizens (=alternative energy has received more $$/unit of energy produced than carbon based).


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> And, if all we look at is gross dollars then no $h!t. However, that methodology is flawed.


I thought that's where you were going, but waiting for the big reveal was part of the fun. 

This form of gross (hah!) subsidy "analysis" is, at best, propaganda. Continued use of the claim after the problem is explained is....I'm not sure what that is. Is the concept that hard to understand or is the propaganda too useful to stop using? 

I'm guessing the latter, because this claim was around back in the day on ehmac.


----------



## Macfury

Every time CM trots out that old joke, he gets his ass handed to him and then he conveniently stops posting for a week or so. When he comes back he has amnesia about his stinging defeat.



Beej said:


> I thought that's where you were going, but waiting for the big reveal was part of the fun.
> 
> This form of gross (hah!) subsidy "analysis" is, at best, propaganda. Continued use of the claim after the problem is explained is....I'm not sure what that is. Is the concept that hard to understand or is the propaganda too useful to stop using?
> 
> I'm guessing the latter, because this claim was around back in the day on ehmac.


----------



## Macfury

As predicted. A week or so and that beldam will emerge wearing the same old tatty garment.



Macfury said:


> Every time CM trots out that old joke, he gets his ass handed to him and then he conveniently stops posting for a week or so. When he comes back he has amnesia about his stinging defeat.


----------



## FeXL

So, how's Tesla's Model 3 production moving along?

More Bad News Expected for Tesla 



> Munster is expecting Tesla to report fourth-quarter Model 3 deliveries of just 2,500, less than half of the consensus Wall Street analyst estimate of 5,200. To make matters worse, Munster says Tesla will likely miss its first 2018 Model 3 production target as well. After previously targeting Model 3 production of 5,000 vehicles per week by the end of 2017, Tesla bumped that target back to "late Q1 2018" following its third-quarter earnings report. Munster says even the new target is "ambitious."


"Ambitious" is a rather polite term for abject failure.

More:



> "While other car manufacturers build gas-powered vehicles at scale, building autonomous EVs is a vastly different process...


Why? While hardly an expert I have worked in two different production facilities. The only difference between the two was the end product. You sit down with your critical path software, you build a car with it, then you adjust your production facility appropriately. You've got materials, you've got assembly stations, you build electric cars.

Easy? Not in the least. But this goof has been building cars for years now. Much of what he knows can already be ported over to another assembly line. EV & autonomous are merely two more pieces to be installed.

Further:



> Munster isn't the only analyst to doubt Tesla's fourth-quarter Model 3 production. KeyBanc analyst Brad Erickson reduced his fourth-quarter Model 3 production target by two-thirds, cutting it from 15,000 to only 5,000.
> 
> Like Munster, Erickson says investors shouldn't get too hung up on a single number.


Right. 'Cause there's absolutely no reason why one should be concerned by a 2/3's reduction in the only number that counts.

What wunnerful spin.

h/t SDA, from whence comes this prescient observation:



> His business is subsidy farming. He is the most successful subsidy farmer in history. Actually telling the truth about anything, is not relevant to that business model; only that loyal cult followers keep getting elected to hand over the subsidies.


----------



## eMacMan

A worthwhile read:

Motor Mouth: Holiday travel proves the fallacies of highway EV charging | Driving


----------



## FeXL

Well, let's talk Tesla 3 production issues. Again. And, again. And, once more. And then, just for the hell of it...

Tesla employees say to expect more Model 3 delays, citing inexperienced workers, manual assembly of batteries



> Tesla's problems with battery production at the company's Gigafactory in Sparks, Nevada, are worse than the company has acknowledged and could cause further delays and quality issues for the new Model 3, according to a number of current and former Tesla employees. These problems include Tesla needing to make some of the batteries by hand and borrowing scores of employees from one of its suppliers to help with this manual assembly, said these people.
> 
> Tesla's future as a mass-market carmaker hinges on automated production of the Model 3, which more than 400,000 people have already reserved, paying $1,000 refundable fees to do so.
> 
> The company has already delayed production, citing problems at the Gigafactory. On Nov. 1, 2017, CEO Elon Musk assured investors in an earnings call that Tesla was making strides to correct its manufacturing issues and get the Model 3 out.
> 
> But more than a month later, in mid-December, Tesla was still making its Model 3 batteries partly by hand, according to current engineers and ex-Tesla employees who worked at the Gigafactory in recent months. They say Tesla had to "borrow" scores of employees from Panasonic, which is a partner in the Gigafactory and supplies lithium-ion battery cells, to help with this manual assembly.


Yes, _yet_, Musk promises to build 27 kajillion of them by year's end...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Ontario's electric car charge station 'screw up'



> Two years after Ontario’s Liberal government introduced a province-wide program to expand electric vehicle use, the program is being called “a screw-up” by some users and “a failure” by those in the electric vehicle industry.
> 
> Called the EVCO program — Electric Vehicle Chargers Ontario — the Liberals announced plans in 2016 to spend $20 million on a network of 500 charging stations for electric vehicles across the province. The goal of the network was to “enable EV drivers to travel between and within cities,” boost electric car sales and “fight climate change.”


More:



> But instead of the reliable, affordable network of charging stations, just over half the charging stations (55%) that were supposed to be constructed by March 2017 have been built, 55% of the new charging stations are concentrated in downtown Toronto and the GTA — which is already saturated with charging stations — *instead of on provincial highways between cities where the Liberals said they were needed.*
> 
> According to customers, government-funded charging stations frequently sit unused, the government lacks the ability to track how often or whether they are used and some users complain those in service are frequently broken and in disrepair.


M'bold.

The range is so crappy they can't make it between _cities?_ In populous southern Ontario?

Sounds suspiciously like Juthdin: Just not ready...


----------



## Rps

FeXL;2610665
Sounds suspiciously like Juthdin: Just not ready... ;)[/QUOTE said:


> You do get that this is a provincial screwup and that it’s Ms. Wynne and not JT that’s the problem right?


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> ...not JT that’s the problem right?


JT's not a problem? :yikes:

I used the phrase, "Just not ready", because if EV's can't make it in southern Ontario where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting the next city, then they're obviously not ready for the big time.

In addition, it was a phrase used in political ads out here during the federal election to describe Juthdin, none of which has changed. I was drawing parallels.

Both utter failures & a waste of taxpayer money.

'Thides, he thupports the Globull Warming narrative as well as Carbon Taxes. He is definitely part of the problem.


----------



## CubaMark

*NS Power to install province-wide electric vehicle fast-charging network*

Nova Scotia Power announced today (tuesday) that it is moving ahead with plans to install Nova Scotia’s first electric vehicle fast charging network.

This spring, the company – in partnership with Natural Resources Canada – will install a network of 12 level-3 fast chargers from Yarmouth to Sydney making it a more viable option to drive an eletric vehicle in Nova Scotia.

Fast chargers can charge an electric vehicle in 15 to 30 minutes. A lack of high speed charging stations is a primary inhibitor to Nova Scotians adopting electric vehicles.

This project will also enable Nova Scotia Power to study the effects of electric vehicles on its power system. President and CEO Karen Hutt said installation of the fast chargers is a step in the right direction for our province as we transition to cleaner energy and a low-carbon future. She also noted the company is focused on enabling innovative solutions for customers that meet today’s needs and those of future generations.

The honourable Jim Carr, Minister of Natural Resources said the federal government is pleased to support the installation of the fast charging network, which will provide more transportation options for drivers and help Canada meet its climate change goals.

The provincial government is augmenting the fast charging network by installing an additional 12 level-2 chargers at the same locations. These chargers will provide a solution for plug-in hybrid vehicles that are unable to charge using the level 3 chargers.

Nova Scotia Energy Minister Geoff Maclellan says electric vehicles have the potential to build on the province’s successes in reducing emissions, and this infrastructure investmestment will support Nova Scotias looking for ways to make cleaner choices.

Site partners and locations of the charging stations are set to be announced next month. For more information on electric vehicles visit www.nspower.ca/ev.

.

*Source: Media Release*

(Nova Scotia Power via Haligonia)​


----------



## FeXL

Or, Nova Scotians are just a bit more informed as to the shortfalls and political BS surrounding EV's than your average 'slicker...



CubaMark said:


> A lack of high speed charging stations is a primary inhibitor to Nova Scotians adopting electric vehicles.​


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> A lack of high speed charging stations is a primary inhibitor to Nova Scotians adopting electric vehicles.


A surplus of hairy heads is the primary inhibitor to Nova Scotians buying more hats. Let's get the government in on this issue now!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> A surplus of hairy heads is the primary inhibitor to Nova Scotians buying more hats. Let's get the government in on this issue now!


Yep. 'Cause the only way this inferior, taxpayer funded technology can survive is via gov't support...


----------



## FeXL

Let's talk Tesla's Model 3 manufacturing issues s'more!

Tesla employees say automaker is churning out a high volume of flawed parts requiring costly rework



> Luxury automaker Tesla is manufacturing a surprisingly high ratio of flawed parts and vehicles, according to several current and former employees, leading to more rework and repairs than can be contained at its factory in Fremont, California.


More:



> One current Tesla engineer estimated that 40 percent of the parts made or received at its Fremont factory require rework. The need for reviews of parts coming off the line, and rework, has contributed to Model 3 delays, the engineer said.
> 
> Another current employee from Tesla's Fremont factory said the company's defect rate is so high that it's hard to hit production targets. Inability to hit the numbers is in turn hurting employee morale.


Wah...

Further:



> Lean manufacturing specialist Matt Girvan, founder of MAG Consulting, said: *"Even during what is considered 'launch' mode, if a company is selling its cars to customers, it should not be experiencing large amounts of rework. This speaks to an internal quality issue that is on a magnitude that is not normal for most car manufacturers."*


My bold.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!! We have a winnah!!!


----------



## FeXL

Tesla Bonds Crash After Moodys Downgrade Due To "Liquidity Pressures"



> With perfectly ironic timing, we pointed out that investors had built a record short position in Tesla bonds, and had been adding to it as the price had plunged.
> 
> Tonight, after hours, yield have smashed above 7% (and price plunged) as Moody's downgrades the carmaker.
> 
> As Bloomberg reports, the rating agency says the company also faces liquidity pressures due to its large negative free cash flow and the pending maturities of convertible bonds.


Sucks to be...

Guess the Musk Rat (Bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Stolen from the comments) is going to have to go subsidy farming again.


----------



## Macfury

He hates those subsidies... said so hisself!



FeXL said:


> Tesla Bonds Crash After Moodys Downgrade Due To "Liquidity Pressures"
> 
> 
> 
> Sucks to be...
> 
> Guess the Musk Rat (Bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Stolen from the comments) is going to have to go subsidy farming again.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> He hates those subsidies... said so hisself!


While it may be early to have TESLA’s obituary, I think their cash burn would attract an assessment of carbon tax. Not that I think TESLA is all smoke and mirrors or a con job but they have yet to meet a substantive benchmark. At this rate, and unless there is a production change, they might be the Edsel of the 21st century. It takes billions to start a car company.....especially one that has rockets on the side.....I’ll give them 3 years to make it, if not....poof another company tossed in the industrial waste land of good intentions. 

p.s. they have a dreadful quality rating.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> He hates those subsidies... said so hisself!


Oh, I knows. And I hates me sum craft beers, too. 'Specially the one's given to me. Gotta force the sucka's down!


----------



## FeXL

We Don't Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> [A]fter Friday's fiery fatal crash of a Tesla Model X on U.S. Highway 101, police and firefighters are assessing how emergency response will need to change in a world where electric cars are becoming more common.
> 
> On Monday, Caltrans workers were at the scene, clearing debris and repairing a freeway divider that was damaged when the Tesla crashed into it and was struck by two other cars before becoming engulfed in flames. The crash shut down a carpool ramp and two lanes of the freeway for almost 6 hours -- twice as long as most accidents of this type, said Ofc. Art Montiel, a spokesperson for the California Highway Patrol.


More:



> Tonight, the ABC7 I-Team has word of a major development in the investigation. His family says Huang complained about the Tesla's auto-pilot "before" the accident. Dan Noyes has an exclusive report.
> 
> Walter Huang's family tells Dan Noyes he took his Tesla to the dealer, complaining that -- on multiple occasions -- the auto-pilot veered toward that same barrier -- the one his Model X hit on Friday when he died.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> We Don't Need No Flaming Sparky Cars:


And then there is, y'know, _*context*_:










(View multi-year data at: National Fire Protection Association)​
*Related*: 
_Highway Vehicle Fires – A Primer On What “Is Normal” And An EV Battery Placement Walkthrough_


----------



## eMacMan

FWIW, calling it Auto Pilot is just plain stupid.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/tesla-sa...opilot-prior-accident-030414001--finance.html


> LOS GATOS, California (Reuters) - Tesla Inc said on Friday that a Tesla Model X involved a fatal crash in California last week had activated its Autopilot system, raising new questions about the semi-autonomous system that handles some driving tasks.
> 
> Tesla also said vehicle logs from the accident showed no action had been taken by the driver soon before the crash and that he had received earlier warnings to put his hands on the wheel.
> 
> "The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider with the crushed crash attenuator, but the vehicle logs show that no action was taken," Tesla said.
> 
> The statement did not say why the Autopilot system apparently did not detect the concrete divider.


----------



## Macfury

Sure, but Tesla promised it was designed to prevent such occurrences. Given the billions Musk is sucking from the company into his personal account, I don't think there's too much time left for the Tesla motor car.



CubaMark said:


> And then there is, y'know, _*context*_:


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> p.s. they have a dreadful quality rating.


The recalls alone are brutal. Cool idea, cool name, terrible execution.


----------



## eMacMan

WTH? The only reason the NTSB would have to criticize Tesla for releasing the crash data is: The NTSB is under orders to promote driverless cars, and this report does not fit the agenda.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...icizes-tesla-crash-data-release-idUSKCN1H81IQ



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board said on Sunday it was “unhappy” that electric car maker Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) made public information about the crash of its Model X vehicle on Autopilot that killed the driver last month.
> 
> The agency “needs the cooperation of Tesla to decode the data the vehicle recorded,” NTSB spokesman Chris O’Neil said in a statement. “In each of our investigations involving a Tesla vehicle, Tesla has been extremely cooperative on assisting with the vehicle data.”
> 
> “However, the NTSB is unhappy with the release of investigative information by Tesla,” he added.


And from here:
Motor Mouth: Recent fatalities point to need for more autonomous car oversight | Driving


> The second troubling thing about the Tesla crash is that, according to San Francisco’s KGO-TV, Mr. Leung had already complained that his Model X had a propensity to steer itself towards that abutment. Not guardrails _like_ the one he crashed into, but the exact guardrail that ended up taking his life. That speaks to a very specific software glitch and is an indication of how tricky it is to get the software right. *Worse yet, Tesla is saying — despite Mr. Huang’s family stating otherwise — that no complaint was ever made. Contrast that with Uber’s decision to pull all its self-driving cars off the road.*


----------



## FeXL

Ya know, ya do yer best to inform the basically schtupid or wilfully ignorant (I don't know which...) Prog masses. Ya lead them to the waterin' hole, ya show them where to dip their snouts, ya walk away secure in the knowledge that you've done the best ya possibly can and, what do they do? Move their heads _left_ (see what I did there?), take up a mouthful of dirt and then look at you like it's yer fault...

So, spit out that dirt & let me spell it out for ya, CM.
1) This article has _fukc all_ to do with how many electric cars catch fire in any given time period. Defensive, much?
2) This article has _everything_ to do with how electric car fires are handled as opposed to ICE powered car fires. 
3) Read the second paragraph of the first quote. I put it there for a reason. Then go to the article & read how, even after the electric car had finally been taken to the tow yard, it still needed to be babysat for several hours.
4) Context, indeed...



CubaMark said:


> And then there is, y'know, context:


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles*

Battery degradation is one of the biggest concerns for electric car owners and potential buyers, but data from Tesla battery packs have been very reassuring so far.

Now the latest data shows less than 10% degradation of the energy capacity after over 160,000 miles on Tesla’s battery packs.

A group of Tesla owners on the Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum are gathering data from over 350 Tesla vehicles across the world and frequently updating it in a public Google file.

We have previously reported on the data, but they have since added many more vehicles and those vehicles have been driving a lot more – completing more battery cycles.

The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.

The trend line currently suggests that the average battery pack could cycle through over 300,000 km (186,000) before coming close to 90% capacity.










(Electrek)​


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> *Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles*


That's interesting. Cell management was supposed to be their key hardware technology development (word of mouth/memory caveat).


----------



## Macfury

Tesla should stop making crap cars and get into the battery business full time.


----------



## FeXL

I'm just wondering how they can figger that all out when nobody can get their hands on a car...


----------



## Rps

FeXL said:


> I'm just wondering how they can figger that all out when nobody can get their hands on a car...


You know I’ll be the first to eat crow on this, but I don’t think I will have to.....Tesla will done in 3 years.....let’s look at the stream here,

1. Cash burn....effectively they have little cash in reserve to cover contingencies.
2. Unrealistic production schedules both for workers and suppliers.
3. Haven’t met output targets.
4. Drastic cost cutting measures in a cost rich production product.
5. Unprofitable...you can only loose money for so long before investors get antsy.
6. Dreadful quality.
7. Focus should be on key product ( model 3 ) but has other cash draining interests such as other models and Space X.
8. Cost of product is unrealistic for volume sales.
9. Focus should be on strength...which is battery technology not cars.
10. Little infrastructure in market to support recharging..

And finally, Elon’s ego. He may think like Steve Jobs but you need to be a Bill Gates here.... he would be better to license to all manufacturers his technology and let them eat the risk. If ( when ) Tesla goes down so will, I think, the electric car business in North America....China maybe a different story and they will be Tesla’s biggest nail in the coffin. Really shouldn’t we be looking at expanding hydrogen powered vehicles as the technology exists and so does the delivery process.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Rps said:


> You know I’ll be the first to eat crow on this, but I don’t think I will have to.....Tesla will done in 3 years.....let’s look at the stream here,
> 
> 1. Cash burn....effectively they have little cash in reserve to cover contingencies.
> 2. Unrealistic production schedules both for workers and suppliers.
> 3. Haven’t met output targets.
> 4. Drastic cost cutting measures in a cost rich production product.
> 5. Unprofitable...you can only loose money for so long before investors get antsy.
> 6. Dreadful quality.
> 7. Focus should be on key product ( model 3 ) but has other cash draining interests such as other models and Space X.
> 8. Cost of product is unrealistic for volume sales.
> 9. Focus should be on strength...which is battery technology not cars.
> 10. Little infrastructure in market to support recharging..
> 
> And finally, Elon’s ego. He may think like Steve Jobs but you need to be a Bill Gates here.... he would be better to license to all manufacturers his technology and let them eat the risk. If ( when ) Tesla goes down so will, I think, the electric car business in North America....China maybe a different story and they will be Tesla’s biggest nail in the coffin. Really shouldn’t we be looking at expanding hydrogen powered vehicles as the technology exists and so does the delivery process.


I will agree with partially :
1. Space X will keep funding the car business as well Solar City is making money by installations of infrastructure of back up power and renewable energy 
2. agreed
3. agreed
4. agreed
5. disagree - investors seem to be manipulating stock, shorting and buying. 
everyone is making money so it will continue. 
6. possibly agree - but they have an amazing warranty program.. no questions asked service 
7. disagree - the other products are selling and providing the money for Tesla to ram up the 3.. - X, S, Semi are massive profits for them. [ wont even mention the profits in Space X ]
8. possibly but people are lined up 
9. partially agree .. but between Solar City and the Cars, Semis - Tesla will survive.
10. disagree - they have charge stations coast to coast 
have a look.. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/supercharger?redirect=no
not to mention every parking lot and hotel has charging stations.


----------



## Rps

MD, not to be argumentative but try to find one that you can use on your trip from Windsor to Bowmanville...a normal run for me.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Rps said:


> MD, not to be argumentative but try to find one that you can use on your trip from Windsor to Bowmanville...a normal run for me.


i found at least 10, not including the cord that comes with the car you can plug anywhere. 
just saying - but again i agree EV is not for everyone.


----------



## FeXL

The Astounding Non-Success Of Sparky Cars



> Published without comment on our mostly coal-fired and highly subsidized electric car fleet


Stunning progress...


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> .....Tesla will done in 3 years.....


Related:

Here Are the Real Reasons for Tesla’s Coming Downfall



> Billionaire tech maker and entrepreneur Elon Musk has built a growing empire running ventures that make electric cars, solar panels, and rockets that are launched into space. And recently, Musk began a new project in the nation’s capital, building his Hyperloop system to take people from Washington, D.C., to New York in less than an hour.
> 
> But how can the billionaire entrepreneur continue to keep going beyond in transforming the business and tech industry when forecasters have already raised concerns that he is overextending himself way beyond capacity?


Very interesting read.


----------



## Macfury

This presser from Musk is a bad omen for Tesla fans:



> Elon Musk's peculiar post-earnings call Wednesday was the talk of the market Thursday morning, with one analyst ranking it among the strangest moments of his career.
> 
> "Tesla's 1Q18 analyst conference call was arguably the most unusual call I have experienced in 20 years on the sell-side," Adam Jonas, equity analyst at Morgan Stanley, said in a note to clients. "Many investors we spoke with post the call agree."
> 
> Normally amiable affairs between the CEO and those who follow his company closest, this version was anything but.
> 
> Amid questions over the electric car maker's cash burn, its relationship with SpaceX and production of the Model 3, Musk cut off the questioners and in some cases chastized them for asking things he didn't like.
> 
> He dismissed one question from a key analyst as "boring," then took more than 20 minutes of questioning from a 25-year-old YouTuber.
> 
> "We're going to go to YouTube. Sorry. These questions are so dry. They're killing me," Musk complained.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Tesla shares fell 5 percent in premarket trading as the impact of Musk's evasiveness sunk in. The impact was felt across the sector, with tech shares overall pointing lower.



https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/03/mus...nusual-in-morgan-stanley-analysts-career.html


----------



## FeXL

This is fabulous.

$TSLA current accounts payable are more than its entire cash balance as reported for q1. Quite obvious that @elonmusk is looking for excuses not to pay contractors and suppliers the $ they are owed $TSLA is running out of cash & desperate.


----------



## FeXL

Federal agency will investigate Tesla crash that killed two young students



> The chemicals inside battery cells can be corrosive and flammable, said Karl Brauer, executive publisher for Autotrader and Kelley Blue Book. “Electric vehicles are not more prone to fire, but batteries can burn hotter fires that are harder to extinguish,” he said. “Once there is a fire and you melt the battery pack, chemicals come out and when those chemicals come out, the fire can start, even without a spark.”


Related:

U.S. Safety Investigators Examine Another Fatal Tesla Crash



> A U.S. transportation-safety agency said it would begin examining the fiery crash of a Tesla Inc. Model S car that killed two teenagers here Tuesday evening, marking the fourth active federal probe involving the company’s vehicles.


----------



## FeXL

OK, now I have concerns not only about how to fight EC fires, but about being locked inside, unable to open windows & escape.

Tesla Bursts Into Flames After "Violent Crash" In Switzerland, Killing Driver Trapped Inside



> When it rains, it pours, or in the case of Tesla, it bursts in flames.
> 
> In the same week in which a Tesla Model S erupted in flames after a "horrific" crash in Ft. Lauderdale, fatally trapping the two teenagers who died inside, while a second Model S rammed a stopped Salt Lake City firetruck at 60mph, mercifully without any fatalities, the Swiss tio.ch reports that yet another Tesla burst into flames after crashing on the A2 highway near the town of Bellinzona, killing a 48-year-old German driver who was trapped inside.


In addition, further concerns about "self-driving":

Tesla with self-driving capability crashes into fire truck, investigation launched



> An investigation has been opened after a Tesla Model S, which can be driven autonomously, crashed into the back of a fire truck in Utah. It comes amid two separate probes involving fatal Tesla crashes.
> 
> The incident occurred in the Salt Lake City suburb of South Jordan on Friday, when the Tesla S slammed into a fire department's mechanics truck while it was stopped at a red light.


Tesla's Autopilot was engaged during Utah crash



> The driver of a Tesla electric car had the vehicle's semi-autonomous Autopilot mode engaged when she slammed into the back of a Utah fire truck over the weekend, in the latest crash involving a car with self-driving features.
> 
> The 28-year-old driver of the car told police in suburban Salt Lake City that the system was switched on and that she had been looking at her phone before the Friday evening crash.


----------



## CubaMark

Elon Musk -rightly so- called out the media (specifically the Washington Post) for the disproportionate attention given to the recent accident of a Tesla Model 3 rear-ending a stopped fire truck:

*Tesla driver says she slammed into fire truck on Autopilot*










The driver of a Tesla electric car had the vehicle's semi-autonomous Autopilot mode engaged when she slammed into the back of a Utah fire truck over the weekend, in the latest crash involving a car with self-driving features. The 28-year-old driver of the car told police in suburban Salt Lake City that the system was switched on and that she had been looking at her phone before the Friday evening crash.

* * *​
On Twitter, co-founder Elon Musk said it was "super messed up" that the incident was garnering public attention, while thousands of accidents involving traditional automobiles "get almost no coverage."

* * *​
outh Jordan police said the Tesla Model S was going 60 mph when it slammed into the back of a fire truck stopped at a red light. The car appeared not to brake before impact, police said.

The driver, whom police have not named, was taken to a hospital with a broken foot. The driver of the fire truck suffered whiplash and was not taken to a hospital.

"What's actually amazing about this accident is that a Model S hit a fire truck at 60 mph and the driver only broke an ankle," Musk tweeted. "An impact at that speed usually results in severe injury or death."

(CBS News)​

*Meanwhile, on the production front, Tesla investors can stop worrying. The Canadians are on the job... more specifically, The Newfoundlanders:*

*Elon Musk personally hires 2 Newfoundland interns who solved problems at Tesla factory*










Two young students from Newfoundland made such a good impression on Tesla and SpaceX founder Elon Musk during a recent internship that the tech magnate personally hired them to come work for his company.

Mark Comeau and Matthew Lane both studied engineering at CNA and MUN, and landed work placements at Tesla, which makes electric vehicles, battery packs and solar panels.

After about a month moving back and forth between the Tesla Factory in California and the company's Gigafactory 1 in Nevada, the two finally saw an opportunity to do something they weren't necessarily assigned to be involved with, but which started them down the path to working with the company.

During the internship, Lane and Comeau saw a problem with the gating system on one of the production ramps at Gigafactory 1 and thought they might be able to do something about it.

"Essentially what happened is we saw an opportunity to solve the problem, we came up with our own idea and actually sort of crashed the meeting with Elon ourselves and presented the idea," Lane told CBC Radio's St. John's Morning Show.

Six weeks later, the two Newfoundland students' solution was brought online, and it must have impressed Musk and others at Tesla because both were asked to come back and start work on something else.

"Literally at like 10 a.m. Monday the week we finished, we got a message saying, 'Hey, head to Nevada to Gigafactory," Comeau said. "[A] five hour car drive later, we arrived in Nevada with a whole new situation and problems to address."

* * *​
After they successfully solved their new problem, Musk personally approached the two students and offered them a job as professional problem solvers, helping to overcome issues at the factory.

* * *​
"Within two days we had solved this issue and got to speak to Elon himself, and this is kind of where he said, 'You guys did a good job, and you should stay,'" said Lane.

(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

Meanwhile, Tesla stock is tanking in financials alone.


----------



## FeXL

And, from the "Not A Surprise To Anyone Paying Attention" department...

New report suggests broad adoption of electric vehicles may actually increase air pollution



> Using a recent forecast prepared by the U.S. Energy Information Administration, Lesser’s analysis shows that, over the period 2018 – 2050, the electric generating plants that will charge new EVs will emit more air pollution than the same number of new internal combustion engines, even accounting for air pollution from oil refineries that manufacture gasoline.
> 
> What’s more, EV subsidies benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor. A nationwide survey of EV owners in 2017 found that 56% had household incomes of at least $100,000 and 17% had household incomes of at least $200,000. In 2016. median household income for the US as a whole was less than $58,000.
> 
> It’s time to hit the brakes on the government’s drive for electric vehicles.


Please note that this is actual air _"pollution"_ (sulfur dioxide, oxides of nitrogen, and particulates), _not_ CO2, an essential compound required for life on this planet.


----------



## pm-r

> for the disproportionate attention given to the recent accident of a _*Tesla Model 3 *_rear-ending a stopped fire truck:



I think you'll find it was actually a _*Tesla Model S sedan*_, as if it matters, but doesn't that model theoretically have better "_*collision avoidance*_" technology built-in????

Anyway, at least its safety features at least worked well.


- Patrick
======


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> "What's actually amazing about this accident is that a Model S hit a fire truck at 60 mph and the driver only broke an ankle," Musk tweeted. "An impact at that speed usually results in severe injury or death."


I'll give Musk credit for chutzpah!


----------



## FeXL

Horse$h!t. Elon Musk, along with some of the Progs on this board, is an idiot.

What's the thrust here? That all the collisions on the planet are fine, as long as the vehicular safety devices worked? "Just ignore the fact that my auto-drive is an abject failure. Check out these airbags!!!"

Only Prog "logic" could come to that twisted conclusion... 

Why bother with driver's licenses & driver education at all then? Or drunk driving laws? Or speed limits? Or lanes? It's open season, no bag limit!!! "Honey, my auto-drive failed miserably & I'm 30 feet under the surface of Lake Michigan but I'm OK: My seatbelts worked!!! 'Course, now I can't open the windows but at least the fire's out..."

Jeezuz...

How about we avoid the collisions in the _first_ place? Shouldn't _that_ be the priority?



CubaMark said:


> Elon Musk -rightly so-...


Good for the Canucks.

Question: Why did it takes years for someone to fix this problem? And, from the sound of it, under their own accord?

What about Musk's superior knowledge & direction? What about his own crop of engineers?



CubaMark said:


> Meanwhile, on the production front


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Horse$h!t. Elon Musk, along with some of the Progs on this board, is an idiot.


An interesting description of a fella who has a personal net worth of around $19-Billion, and who is revolutionizing space flight. But hey, I suppose it takes one to know one... 



FeXL said:


> "Just ignore the fact that my auto-drive is an abject failure. Check out these airbags!!!"


Ah, I see. You, like many Tesla critics, are under the assumption that these are self-driving vehicles capable of 100% independent driving. They are not, and this is explicitly stated in the promotional material for the car. Also note that the driver of this particular Tesla admitted that —approaching a stoplight and intersection— she was paying attention to her cell phone, not the road.

*"Every driver is responsible for remaining alert and active when using Autopilot, and must be prepared to take action at any time."*
(Tesla)​


----------



## Macfury

That's a pretty sad straw man argument. There's a huge difference between semi-autonomous and fully-autonomous vehicles. Problem with this accident is that the Tesla should have stopped under either scenario.

My question is, why do you feel the need to defend Musk for producing an expensive product with lax quality controls from a financially failing company that can't manufacture vehicles efficiently? 



CubaMark said:


> Ah, I see. You, like many Tesla critics, are under the assumption that these are self-driving vehicles capable of 100% independent driving.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> An interesting description of a fella who has a personal net worth of around $19-Billion, and who is revolutionizing space flight. But hey, I suppose it takes one to know one...
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, I see. You, like many Tesla critics, are under the assumption that these are self-driving vehicles capable of 100% independent driving. They are not, and this is explicitly stated in the promotional material for the car. Also note that the driver of this particular Tesla admitted that —approaching a stoplight and intersection— she was paying attention to her cell phone, not the road.*"Every driver is responsible for remaining alert and active when using Autopilot, and must be prepared to take action at any time."*
> (Tesla)​


OK it was unable to pickup something as big as a stationary firetruck and missed a red light clue, and that's no biggie????

Pretty sure Utah does not employ stealth firetrucks, and equally certain that their redlights operate in the visible spectrum.

Depending on the vehicle a full stop from 60MPH requires around 300 feet, so failing to pick up on a stationary firetruck before it gets that close is a biggie.


----------



## Macfury

Collision avoidance is standard issue equipment on cars offered by major manufacturers including Toyota. Musk should be comparing media coverage of these Tesla disasters against Toyotas involved in similar accidents... not cars operated solely by drivers.



eMacMan said:


> OK it was unable to pickup something as big as a stationary firetruck and missed a red light clue, and that's no biggie????
> 
> Pretty sure Utah does not employ stealth firetrucks, and equally certain that their redlights operate in the visible spectrum.
> 
> Depending on the vehicle a full stop from 60MPH requires around 300 feet, so failing to pick up on a stationary firetruck before it gets that close is a biggie.


----------



## FeXL

I'd be a billionaire if I had farmed as many subsidies as Musk, too. Just because you have cash doen't mean you can't be an idiot. And a moron with a PhD is still a moron.

And, with Tesla's production & quality control issues, as well as their cashflow problems, we'll see how long his net worth maintains that level.



CubaMark said:


> An interesting description of a fella who has a personal net worth of around $19-Billion...


It's patently obvious you see squat.



CubaMark said:


> Ah, I see.


I assume nothing. As MF noted, with all the alleged safety features in this car, you should be able to put a brick on the accelerator pedal, shut the door, watch it drive away & it will stop itself before it hits something.



CubaMark said:


> You, like many Tesla critics, are under the assumption that these are self-driving vehicles capable of 100% independent driving.


----------



## Macfury

Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model #3 a "no recommendation" rating.



> The Tesla’s stopping distance of 152 feet from 60 mph was far worse than any contemporary car we’ve tested and about 7 feet longer than the stopping distance of a Ford F-150 full-sized pickup.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model #3 a "no recommendation" rating.


As with all forms of new technology it’s the idiots who find ways to abuse it. When AVs where first let out on the roads what did people do...........go to YouTube and search, you will see tonnes of videos by the chronically stupid. However, all technology has had its critics. Are Tesla vehicles junk....some yes, does CR endorse them......to be honest unless your name is Honda or Toyota CR doesn’t endorse much. This will all come out in the wash......20 years from now we will all be laughing about this one way or the other.......can you say Cell Phones.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Consumer Reports gives the Tesla Model #3 a "no recommendation" rating.


FWIW 150 feet is pretty good. Anything short of a full panic stop is likely to take closer to 300 feet, including reaction lag and that would still be a fairly hard stop.


----------



## Macfury

Braking is not new technology--this has nothing to do with semi-autonomous vehicles. 

And Consumer Reports gave the Tesla Model S top ratings in its luxury class vehicle report.





Rps said:


> As with all forms of new technology it’s the idiots who find ways to abuse it. When AVs where first let out on the roads what did people do...........go to YouTube and search, you will see tonnes of videos by the chronically stupid. However, all technology has had its critics. Are Tesla vehicles junk....some yes, does CR endorse them......to be honest unless your name is Honda or Toyota CR doesn’t endorse much. This will all come out in the wash......20 years from now we will all be laughing about this one way or the other.......can you say Cell Phones.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Braking is not new technology--this has nothing to do with semi-autonomous vehicles.
> 
> And Consumer Reports gave the Tesla Model S top ratings in its luxury class vehicle report.


I think we have a mix post here. Yes the S series has gotten some good ratings...it should at that price. And my post was more on AV and not braking.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I think we have a mix post here. Yes the S series has gotten some good ratings...it should at that price. And my post was more on AV and not braking.


You said CR does not endorse much, but it gave the Model S one of the highest ratings of all time.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> You said CR does not endorse much, but it gave the Model S one of the highest ratings of all time.


Be that as it may, I find CR to be heavily biased.

As a postscript. CR lists the Tesla S, Tesla X, and Tesla 3 A’s poor in reliability, although buyers list them high in satisfaction.


----------



## pm-r

> Be that as it may, I find CR to be heavily biased.



+1. And questionable results for just way too many years now.

And many buyers tend to *rationalize their purchases*, especially when a good deal of money is involved.




- Patrick
======


----------



## FeXL

Nearly a quarter of Tesla’s Model 3 reservation deposits in the U.S. have supposedly been refunded



> Two years ago Tesla began accepting $1,000 deposits for its new, lower-priced Model 3 electric car, with the expectation that customers would likely receive their vehicles in 2018. Hundreds of thousands of people have reserved one.
> 
> But perhaps due to extended production delays, many customers have been asking for their money back.
> 
> As of the end of April, some 23 percent of all Model 3 deposits in the U.S. had been refunded, according to new U.S. data from Second Measure, a company that analyzes billions of dollars in anonymized credit and debit card purchases.


If Musk hadn't had to move so many production staff over to the cheque-writing department, maybe he could actually build a few of those cars... :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Hey, why aren't you comparing that to returns of deposits on gas guzzlers? Oh wait a second--they deliver the vehicles they promise. 

Sorry, I was channeling CubaMark for a second.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Hey, why aren't you comparing that to returns of deposits on gas guzzlers? Oh wait a second--they deliver the vehicles they promise.
> 
> Sorry, I was channeling CubaMark for a second.


Whew! For a second there, I thought you'd partaken of the Kool-aid...


----------



## eMacMan

Man this sure sounds familiar. Didn't this also happen in Utah?
https://www.thecarconnection.com/ne...tech-sped-up-automatically-before-fatal-crash



> Federal investigators found that the Model X P100D's driver, Apple engineer Walter Huang, had set Autopilot to 75 mph for nearly 19 minutes prior to the impact while traveling on U.S. Highway 101 approaching State Highway 85. In the seconds leading up to the crash, the Autopilot system slowed the vehicle to 65 mph behind another car. Just four seconds prior to the impact, the car in front moved out of the way and the Tesla began to speed up.


----------



## FeXL

What's this? 

Global solar forecasts lowered as China cuts support policies



> China’s unexpected move to slash incentives for solar power has sent stocks into a free fall and prompted analysts to lower forecasts for global installations this year amid expectations that a glut of excess panels would send prices tumbling.


More:



> But the Asian nation last week said it would not build any more solar power stations in 2018 and cut its feed-in tariff subsidy, which guarantees a certain price for power.


But the Progs told me that parity had been reached & there weren't no such thing as subsidies any moooore... :-(


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> But the Progs told me that parity had been reached & there weren't no such thing as subsidies any moooore... :-(


Welllll.... there _are_ subsidies--they just don't need them!


----------



## FeXL

Straight from the Tesla forums.

Autopilot tried to kill me twice today.



> I'm in the UK. My software update (2018.21.9) completed this morning. 2018 Model S 100D.
> 
> On an 'A' road drive today in dry, clear weather using Autopilot on a stretch of straight, clear, flat well marked road at 40mph the car suddenly and for no apparent reason tried to swerve off the road sharply, I had to grab the wheel (my hands always rest lightly on the wheel while AP is engaged) quickly to get the car back on track. This happened twice 45 minutes apart in similar conditions.
> 
> There was no break in the white lines and no apparent reason for it to do this.
> 
> The first time the passenger nearly had a heart attack - the second she informed me that she'd like to me to 'stop the car so that she could get out now please'.
> 
> My cautious relationship with this initially exciting function has now come to an end.


Oh, I'm pretty sure it's still exciting. Just not the way you had anticipated.

Related:

This Test Shows Why Tesla Autopilot Crashes Keep Happening



> 2/2 You can't change from "passively sitting, looking out the window" to "OMG, there's a car stopped *right* in front of me" in less than half a second. ----- If the autopilot can't run 100% of the time it's not good enough.


Yeppers.

Like The Eyebrow, it's just not ready...


----------



## Macfury

Here we go again:

https://twitter.com/marycmccormack/...acks-husband-spontaneously-combusts-la-street

But don't worry folks--the car's fine. It's just the battery that's blowin' up.


----------



## eMacMan

More on the Tempe Uber fatality
https://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Report-Uber-driver-streaming-The-Voice-just-13016853.php

The key part of the story:


> The National Transportation Safety Board, in a preliminary report issued last month, said the autonomous driving system on Uber's Volvo XC-90 SUV spotted Herzberg about six seconds before hitting her, but did not stop because the system used to automatically apply brakes in potentially dangerous situations had been disabled.
> 
> 
> The system is disabled while Uber's cars are under computer control, "to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle behavior," the NTSB report said. *Instead of the system, Uber relies on the human backup driver to intervene, the report stated. But the system is not designed to alert the driver.*


Does no one else see the built in path to disaster in this?


----------



## Macfury

The latest on Tesla:



> Tesla is sending out emails to all Model 3 reservation holders in the US and Canada explaining that they need to pay $2,500 to confirm their order online or lose it. Reservation holders began paying $1,000 deposits when CEO Elon Musk first revealed the car in March 2016


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The latest on Tesla:


It's been noted he has a cashflow problem.


----------



## pm-r

FeXL said:


> It's been noted he has a cashflow problem.




Does anyone notice the similarities of the old Bricklin and its situation???


- Patrick
======


----------



## Macfury

Yeah--troubled production and government bail-outs, but on a much smaller scale.



pm-r said:


> Does anyone notice the similarities of the old Bricklin and its situation???
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> ======


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> Yeah--troubled production and government bail-outs, but on a much smaller scale.



As my wife has kept saying for years now — _*it all always comes down to money at the end*_.

And yup, it seems to be betting worse the last few years...!!!



- Patrick
======


----------



## FeXL

pm-r said:


> Does anyone notice the similarities of the old Bricklin and its situation???
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> ======


Actually, I don't. I'm familiar with the car but know little about the history.


----------



## pm-r

FeXL said:


> Actually, I don't. I'm familiar with the car but know little about the history.



I know little of all their problems, but very briefly…

Basically, they both seem to have/had some of the same problems during development: money flow and production problems.


----------



## pm-r

duplicated post


----------



## eMacMan

Long article, that could easily be reduced to 3 or 4 paragraphs but worth the read.

Motor Mouth: Autonomous car testing regulations? There are close to none | Driving


----------



## CubaMark

Those of you dancing on Tesla's grave might want to hold off on spilling the liquor...

Tesla reaches Model 3 production milestone and record 7,000-car week total production


----------



## Macfury

Whether or not it can spend a large enough sum of its dwindling cash to hand-build enough cars to finally achieve this production deadline is not the problem facing Tesla.



CubaMark said:


> Those of you dancing on Tesla's grave might want to hold off on spilling the liquor...
> 
> Tesla reaches Model 3 production milestone and record 7,000-car week total production


----------



## Macfury

Looks like the news about Tesla's productivity games is killing stock prices. Apparently cars were "produced" but not tested.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> Looks like the news about Tesla's productivity games is killing stock prices. Apparently cars were "produced" but not tested.


MacFury I still think cash burn and no return is going to be their downfall. Further, if they are hit with Trumps auto tariffs they maybe done as they import many many auto parts off shore ( read China )


----------



## Macfury

That call for tripling the deposit for unbuilt cars or losing it was a bad sign.



Rps said:


> MacFury I still think cash burn and no return is going to be their downfall. Further, if they are hit with Trumps auto tariffs they maybe done as they import many many auto parts off shore ( read China )


----------



## Rps

CubaMark said:


> Those of you dancing on Tesla's grave might want to hold off on spilling the liquor...
> 
> Tesla reaches Model 3 production milestone and record 7,000-car week total production


Sorry, but their cash burn will kill them......go ask GM. When you consider that they built only 2000 of the S and X I would worry as a share holder.


----------



## Rps

Macfury said:


> That call for tripling the deposit for unbuilt cars or losing it was a bad sign.


I also agree. Wait till the recalls start to hit as well.


----------



## Rps

Okay, so I’m not a tree hugger but I purchased a new Chevy Volt. I have had it a month and a half. Got to say I love the car. I’ve used $2 worth of gas and have run it on hydro since I have bought it. While my hydro bill as gone up since I bought it, we also had 3 weeks of 100 degree temps so the AC is running overtime. Our gas prices were as high as 1.39 per litre. Must say it’s pretty cheap to run only on hydro. That said, it might not be for everyone...but the Volt is certainly worth looking at over as, say Tesla or Leaf. No range anxiety.


----------



## pm-r

> Okay, so I’m not a tree hugger but I purchased a new Chevy Volt.


Good to hear and a good sensible choice.

You'll no doubt save a fair bit of money compared to using gasoline and torquey fun to drive.

But maybe you're missing out on some of the offers being offered to Tesla owners which may also be a good thing:


----------



## Macfury

Tesla does it again with a bizarre memo asking suppliers to give back money they have been paid for supplies as far back as 2016 to "help (Tesla) become profitable." 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-asks-suppliers-for-cash-back-to-help-turn-a-profit-1532301091


----------



## Rps

MacFury, requesting paybacks is not all that unusual but optically it is bad for Tesla. When you look at the cash burn and recent financial reports I don’t see them lasting. I think their only hope is a move to China.


----------



## Macfury

Rps, you're more familiar with the auto industry than I am. I get asking a supplier to give you a better deal going forward--but what could induce a supplier to give back money it had already been paid three years ago? 



Rps said:


> MacFury, requesting paybacks is not all that unusual but optically it is bad for Tesla. When you look at the cash burn and recent financial reports I don’t see them lasting. I think their only hope is a move to China.


----------



## Rps

MacFury I’ve seen it before. It is usually a sign of blood in the water! Musk has made some huge errors with Tesla. When you look at how his market cap is falling it is scary. The bonds are what would scare me if I was an investor. If Tesla goes down I’m wondering how the fall out would hit the rest of the market.


Sorry I forgot to answer your question... you would usually look at projects, sometimes tier 1s but the idea is a refund to sustain growth going forward. It usually impacts suppliers if they have an end of world relationship with you. Tesla will then start touting “family” to ease fears.....you’ve seen this before....the “they have faith in us that’s why they are reinvesting in our future” spin.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> .. you would usually look at projects, sometimes tier 1s but the idea is a refund to sustain growth going forward. It usually impacts suppliers if they have an end of world relationship with you. Tesla will then start touting “family” to ease fears.....you’ve seen this before....the “they have faith in us that’s why they are reinvesting in our future” spin.


So essentially they would approach a supplier who depends almost entirely on that buyer?


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> Musk has made some huge errors with Tesla.


H8TER!!!

Just you wait & see what kind of money the next subsidy farming exercise will produce.

We'll build cars then, I tells ya!!! Two a month, promise! And hardly any QC issues!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> MacFury I’ve seen it before.


I've never heard of it, either.

Not that I've ever been in the car manufacturing industry but I've worked for a handful of production facilities.

Negotiating or re-negotiating current & future contracts? All the time. 

Past contracts? Nope. What's done is done. 

If they're end of world suppliers, they'd be smart to close the doors immediately, rather than refund profits they've already made & extend the misery a few years down the road. Especially with a business partner like Musk.


----------



## pm-r

Rps said:


> MacFury, requesting paybacks is not all that unusual but optically it is bad for Tesla. When you look at the cash burn and recent financial reports I don’t see them lasting. I think their only hope is a move to China.




Hmmm…??? Is this reminiscent of the old and now defunct DeLorean Motor Company…??? 
And I wonder how Tesla's warranty coverage is managing lately for any owners that needs it…???


----------



## Rps

pm-r said:


> Hmmm…??? Is this reminiscent of the old and now defunct DeLorean Motor Company…???
> And I wonder how Tesla's warranty coverage is managing lately for any owners that needs it…???


If Tesla was smart it would have contracted its warranty out to a 3rd party.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> If Tesla was smart it would have contracted its warranty out to a 3rd party.


Tesla is saving on warranty costs by not delivering the vehicles!


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> If Tesla was smart it would have contracted its warranty out to a 3rd party.


No 3rd party in their right mind would have signed that contract.


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> Tesla is saving on warranty costs by not delivering the vehicles!



Oh right, I forgot that little detail. 

But then when they finally do get their pre-ordered car, its warranty has expired as it no doubt stared from the order date maybe!!!

No doubt in the tiny print in grey text on a grey background that they learnt how to do from Apple!!

But I digress…


----------



## FeXL

Uh-ohhh

Tesla forms three-member panel to decide on any Musk proposal



> Tesla Inc’s board (TSLA.O) named a special committee of three directors on Tuesday to evaluate possibly taking the electric carmaker private, although it said it had yet to see a firm offer from the company’s chief executive, Elon Musk.


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> _Are any of these VIN's YOUR car? If so, you have a module(s) that IS punctured/dented/damaged. #TSLA #TSLAQ @elonmusk (Subsidy Fraud-Boy) pic.twitter.com/pOZWDeeXcO
> 
> — Martin Tripp (@trippedover) August 15, 2018_​
> Here’s the backstory;
> 
> _Tesla whistleblower Martin Tripp is tweeting internal emails, photos and vehicle identification numbers that he says are evidence of flawed manufacturing practices at Tesla’s battery factory, and product sold by Tesla that is imperfect, and could put drivers’ lives at risk.
> 
> Tripp has, in previous interviews, said that Tesla’s Gigafactory took dangerous manufacturing shortcuts, and that Elon Musk had direct knowledge of these and failed to intervene._​
> Which prompted the latest chapter in Twitter’s corporate suicide note: Twitter Promptly Suspends Tesla Whistleblower Following Tweets About His Former Employer.
> 
> *That’s right! Twitter is now suspending accounts for Musk-a-phobia.* But I digress…


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

Tesla insiders say ‘it’s a s–t show’ under beleaguered Elon Musk



> As Elon Musk continues to struggle — with Tesla under investigation by the SEC following his tweet that it might go private after “funding secured,” among several other self-inflicted wounds — employees tell The Post that the company is in turmoil.
> 
> “Elon talks about being a socialist and doing good for mankind — unless you work for them,” says one source. “It’s a s–t show.”


Oh. Then just how it looks from the outside...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Tesla insiders say ‘it’s a s–t show’ under beleaguered Elon Musk
> 
> Oh. Then just how it looks from the outside...


I've stopped recounting all of the quality problems and failure to hit production targets on the Model S. Seems such a short time ago that CM was trumpeting about the success of their "production tent."


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I've stopped recounting all of the quality problems and failure to hit production targets on the Model S. Seems such a short time ago that CM was trumpeting about the success of their "production tent."


Merely the most recent in a long list of CM's failed narratives...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Merely the most recent in a long list of CM's failed narratives...


Remember the one about perfecting Tesla cars to drive on Mars?


----------



## Rps

The real threat to TESLA, other than Musk, is China. China is running full bore on EVs, so much so that they are cutting back on oil imports. India can’t be far behind. This leaves TESLA in a bad situation, especially if they build a factory in China.....can you say IP stealing. What is curious to me is that if TESLA goes down.....will EVs in North America go with them. Frankly I’m not sure.

I have a Chevy Volt and love it.....especially when gas in Windsor hit $1.38 a litre. So far it has cost me $21 a month in hydro costs, or about 1/4 of what gas has cost me.


----------



## FeXL

I ran across this today.

Explaining Russia's new retro-futuristic electric car



> On August 23, presenting at the “Army-2018” forum, the Kalashnikov Concern arms manufacturer unveiled its CV-1 electric automobile prototype, whose outward appearance is modeled on the IZh 2125 “Kombi” compact car. The vehicle’s design team thinks it can become a competitor to Tesla. Russian Internet users responded immediately with the meme “How do you like it, Elon Musk?” repeating a phrase used to mock Russia’s most absurd and unimpressive home creations. _Meduza_ asked industrial designer and former Marussia Motors chief designer Yaroslav Rassadin to share his thoughts about the CV-1, and to explain why Kalashnikov decided to give its car of the future a look from the past.


Yes. _That_ Kalashnikov...


----------



## Macfury

QUOTE=FeXL;2665652]I ran across this today.

Explaining Russia's new retro-futuristic electric car



Yes. _That_ Kalashnikov...[/QUOTE]

More pix! I like that car!

[


----------



## FeXL

Seattle's streets will be MT. I'm not kidding.

Toyota is recalling 1 million hybrids at risk of catching fire



> The automaker said Wednesday that the safety recall covers its Prius, Prius plug-in hybrid and C-HR SUV models and is intended to repair a problem with their electrical systems, which in some cases can cause fires.
> 
> More than half of the affected vehicles are in Japan, while just under 200,000 are in the United States. The rest were sold in Europe and other markets. US drivers will start receiving recall notices by mail this month.


More:



> The Japanese carmaker has had problems with the Prius before.
> 
> In 2016, it recalled more than 1.7 million of the vehicles over issues related to their air bags and parking brakes.
> 
> More broadly, the company has also had to recall more than 20 million of its cars in recent years in response to the Takata exploding air bag scandal.


Related:


----------



## FeXL

Curiouser & curiouser...

Tesla Chief Accounting Officer Dave Morton Resigns



> “Since I joined Tesla on August 6th, the level of public attention placed on the company, as well as the pace within the company, have exceeded my expectations,” Morton, who joined Tesla just one month ago, said in a statement.


I wonder of that smoke in the photograph is a Tesla behind the curtain...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I kill me!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

More:



> Moments after Morton’s resignation, Tesla’s Chief People Officer Gaby Toledano announced she would not be returning to the company after taking a 15-month leave of absence August 15.


_*People*_ Officer? WTF is a _*People*_ Officer?

Anyway, shouldn't that be *Peoplekind*?

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Further:



> In July, Tesla announced Doug Field, Senior Vice President of Engineering, was departing the company after taking a leave of absence.


Sounds like a stable business to me!


----------



## Macfury

But Tesla met its goal of Model S vehicles that one month--never mind that the "tent cars" were riddled with production errors! Besides, those cars are meant to drive on Mars, not Earth,


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Besides, those cars are meant to drive on Mars, not Earth,


Good thing. By the time we get a rocket ready for Mars, all the deficiencies should have been fixed... :yikes:


----------



## 18m2

Walmart has ordered 30 more Tesla rigs.



> Walmart will have one of Canada’s largest Tesla Semi fleets. Other companies that preordered the $232,000 electric trucks include Toronto trucking firm Fortigo Freight and Loblaw Companies Ltd.


They will be beneficial for short haul delivery.

https://www.thestar.com/business/20...la-semi-trucks-as-it-aims-to-shed-diesel.html


----------



## Macfury

All you really need to know:



> Delivery dates for the vehicles over the next five years haven’t been finalized.


Because there are no trucks to deliver. Ordering them is great virtue signalling though.




18m2 said:


> Walmart has ordered 30 more Tesla rigs.
> 
> 
> 
> They will be beneficial for short haul delivery.
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/business/20...la-semi-trucks-as-it-aims-to-shed-diesel.html


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Tough week for Subsidy Fraud Boy.
> 
> _Shares of Tesla plunged as much as 9 percent Friday after news of a pair of C-suite executive resignations and a bizarre video showing CEO Elon Musk smoking pot on a podcast, capping a tumultuous month since Musk launched the company into controversy with a take-private tweet.
> 
> The stock opened Friday’s session at $260.10 before paring losses slightly. Shares were roughly 7 percent down after the first hour of trading, closing down 6 percent. It extends a painful week for the automaker. As of Friday’s close, the stock lost more than 11 percent on the week._​


More:



> _@WallStCynic – There is no Model Y, pickup truck, semi or Roadster. Or solar roof either, for that matter. These products do not exist. And $TSLA is not building the capacity to make them. I have never seen a company simply make things up on such a grand scale. It’s legally breathtaking!_​


----------



## eMacMan

If Musk were hoping to swing a private take over, would he not do everything in his power to depress the value of the stock? 

Or maybe he's just selling short while he's waiting for it to come down around his ears?


----------



## Macfury

I can't figure it out any more. Sometimes he does idiotic things to make the stock rise and other times does them to make stock plummet.



eMacMan said:


> If Musk were hoping to swing a private take over, would he not do everything in his power to depress the value of the stock?
> 
> Or maybe he's just selling short while he's waiting for it to come down around his ears?


----------



## Rps

He has two issues: cash burn and debt. I can’t see how he will cover his bonds which are due shortly. His stock has dropped about 30% .... short sell won’t cover the bond issue.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> I can’t see how he will cover his bonds which are due shortly.


He's probably out subsidy farming as we type. Don't think he'll find a friend in Trump, however.


----------



## pm-r

FeXL said:


> He's probably out subsidy farming as we type. Don't think he'll find a friend in Trump, however.



He'll be just like his current US President did, and just use every else's money. No problem.


----------



## Macfury

pm-r said:


> He'll be just like his current US President did, and just use every else's money. No problem.


How is that different from every president or world leader?


----------



## Macfury

Here's Audi's new E-tron electric vehicle. Quite a crashing bore. That Kalashnikov Russian e-car is looking better all the time.


----------



## CubaMark

Well.... this is interesting....

*Tesla Model 3 Is #1 Top Selling American Car In USA*


----------



## pm-r

CubaMark said:


> Well.... this is interesting....
> 
> *Tesla Model 3 Is #1 Top Selling American Car In USA*



That is a bit surprising to read.






- Patrick
======


----------



## SINC

I am left to wonder if people are buying these cars to save the environment ?

I suspect the majority buy them for two real reasons. Prestige and the fantastic 0 to 100 mph acceleration. Hmmmm?


----------



## Macfury

If you look closely, all of the the other cars on the list are actual sales. Tesla is reporting "delivery estimates."



CubaMark said:


> Well.... this is interesting....
> 
> *Tesla Model 3 Is #1 Top Selling American Car In USA*


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> If you look closely, all of the the other cars on the list are actual sales. Tesla is reporting "delivery estimates."


I thought that might be the case, but had not taken the time to review it. What were the delivery numbers for Tesla. 

Also noted it was for American cars, with the Big 3 concentrating solely on Urban Assault Vehicles and trucks, that was a fairly minor accomplishment. Toyota had 3 different models on that list, Nissan and Honda 2, as compared to the single Tesla entry.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I thought that might be the case, but had not taken the time to review it. What were the delivery numbers for Tesla.
> 
> Also noted it was for American cars, with the Big 3 concentrating solely on Urban Assault Vehicles and trucks, that was a fairly minor accomplishment. Toyota had 3 different models on that list, Nissan and Honda 2, as compared to the single Tesla entry.


Offering less choice in models certainly runs Tesla further up the list.


----------



## eMacMan

Note, combining model sales puts Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia and Hyundai all ahead of Tesla. Not sure of the exact order.

As previously noted The Big Three stopped vying for this market some time ago. From that perspective Tesla is at the bottom of the list. 

Funny how the same stats can be skewed to produce diametrically opposite results.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Funny how the same stats can be skewed to produce diametrically opposite results.


Yep. Limiting it to American cars is a heavy skew to begin with. Basing Model 3 sales figures on estimates is also a nice trick.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Tesla is reporting "delivery estimates."


D'oh!!!

And we all know how well those "delivery estimates" are doing...


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> If you look closely, all of the the other cars on the list are actual sales. Tesla is reporting "delivery estimates."




I missed that, but I will admit I didn't look or read too closely at all.

Isn't that akin and sort of like saying: "_the check is in the mail_".



- Patrick
======


----------



## Beej

pm-r said:


> I missed that, but I will admit I didn't look or read too closely at all.
> 
> Isn't that akin and sort of like saying: "_the check is in the mail_".
> 
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> ======


I don't know if delivery estimates are reasonable, but wouldn't the bigger "fudge" be that they are delivering on the pre-orders they accumulated over the span of years?


----------



## pm-r

Beej said:


> I don't know if delivery estimates are reasonable, but wouldn't the bigger "fudge" be that they are delivering on the pre-orders they accumulated over the span of years?



Just a quick Google search and a glance at some of the hits shows it's a pretty bazaar and expensive world out there if you want one of their models… and have a large cash reserve...

https://www.google.com/search?clien...t+your+preordered+Tesla+yet&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


- Patrick
======


----------



## FeXL

pm-r said:


> Just a quick Google search and a glance at some of the hits shows it's a pretty bazaar and expensive world out there if you want one of their models… and have a large cash reserve...


And have lots of patience while waiting for it to actually show up, months after the promised delivery date. If at all...


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> I don't know if delivery estimates are reasonable, but wouldn't the bigger "fudge" be that they are delivering on the pre-orders they accumulated over the span of years?


Yes. The sales occurred a long time ago and are being bunched up in this latest effort meet production targets. How many Tesla's did they actually sell in September, regardless of delivery date?


----------



## CubaMark

*Tesla delivers 'historic' $311m profit*










Tesla has reported a quarterly profit for just the third time in its 15-year history.

The electric car-maker made a record $311.5m (£241m) in the three months to 30 September, as the pace of car deliveries accelerated.

The result is a victory for chief executive Elon Musk, who had promised a profit to investors earlier this year.

Tesla's last profitable quarter came in 2016 and it had faced mounting questions about its finances.

In a letter to investors, Mr Musk called the quarter "historic" and said it was a credit to the firm's "ingenuity and incredible hard work".

He also said Tesla was on track to be profitable again in the fourth quarter.

Shares jumped more than 10% in after-hours trading in New York.

* * *​
Following a surge of orders last year, it struggled to meet manufacturing targets and deliver cars to customers.

That prompted worries about Tesla's finances and fanned concerns that customers would get impatient and cancel their bookings.

However, less than a fifth of the roughly 455,000 reservations the firm reported in 2017 have been cancelled, it said.

Production has also picked up, driving sales. Tesla made more than 80,000 vehicles in the period, of which more than 60% were Model 3s.

The increase lifted revenue to $6.8bn in the quarter, more than double a year ago.
(BBC)​


----------



## Macfury

That "historic" profit represents 0.04%. Does that pass for excitement in the "green" world?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> That "historic" profit represents 0.04%. Does that pass for excitement in the "green" world?


One wonders how much creative accounting was employed to arrive at that historic figure...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> One wonders how much creative accounting was employed to arrive at that historic figure...


There were three things that happened in October. Staff cuts. Spending cuts. Offering cars that needed to be ordered before the end of the year so that buyers could qualify for the rapidly diminishing subsidies. I suspect these would explain the "profit."

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/15/tesla-tries-another-trick-to-sell-its-priciest-car.aspx


----------



## FeXL

Hey, CM, how come you never posts any links to this sort of stuff? One would think that somebody who screams blue murder over anything that harms Gaia or harms children and/or minorities would be all over this sort of thing. They're not even Muslim!

The Widespread Social And Environmental Destruction Behind Electric Car Batteries And E-Mobility



> German ZDF public television recently broadcast a report showing how electric cars are a far cry from being what they are all cracked up to be by green activists.
> 
> The report titled: “Batteries in twilight – The dark side of e-mobility” shows how the mining of raw materials needed for producing the massive automobile batteries is highly destructive to the environment. For example, two thirds of the cobalt currently comes from the Congo, where the mining rights have been acquired by China. Other materials needed include manganese, lithium and graphite.
> 
> Every electric car battery needs about 20 – 30 kg of lithium.
> 
> The mining of the raw materials often takes place in third world countries where workers are forced to work under horrendous conditions and no regard is given to protecting the environment. When it comes to “going green”, it seems everything flies out the window.


More:



> The report shows that one source of the lithium is the desert of northern Chile. Everyday at the mine shown some 21 million liters of ground water get pumped to the surface, where it evaporates and a sludge with 6% lithium content gets shipped to processing plants. The operations are transforming the Chilean desert landscape into a vast industrial wasteland.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Chilean lithium mining operations are pumping out what little precious groundwater that remains and ruining the living basis of the local population. What little vegetation there was to begin with is now dying due to falling water tables. Overall, mining operations are expected to expand four-fold within the next decade and the mining companies profit while the local citizens lose their livelihoods.
> 
> ...
> 
> Today’s batteries for e-cars also require approx. 10 – 15 kg of cobalt, where two thirds of which comes from authoritarian Republic of the Congo. The mining rights are owned by Chinese companies. Here as well the benefits of the mining operations do not find their way to the local residents, who are forced live under horrendous conditions.
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> Meanwhile the ground around the mining villages are now perforated with vertical shafts that pose a constant danger to children who risk falling into them. Work conditions for the miners themselves is extremely dangerous. The money they earn is not enough to provide for their families. Children are forced to work and do not go to school.


----------



## FeXL

Musk gets the shoe.

Tesla names director Denholm as chair after Musk rows



> Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) has ended weeks of speculation by promoting one of the electric carmaker’s independent directors, Australian accountant Robyn Denholm, to replace Elon Musk as chairman.
> 
> The change in structure at the Silicon Valley firm, agreed to by Musk in a September court settlement with regulators, is supported by many on Wall Street who worry that his erratic behavior is undermining the company’s progress.
> 
> Analysts and investors have expressed concern that it must be a strong independent figure who can rein in the billionaire’s public outbursts and *bring more order to Tesla.*


M'bold.

Is that code for getting production on track?

More:



> While Tesla is finally starting to make good on Musk’s promises on production of the Model 3 sedan, seen as crucial to the company’s future, it has lost senior executives for sales, human resources, manufacturing and finance in recent months.
> 
> *Its vice president for manufacturing Gilbert Passin was reported last month to have left.*


M'bold.

Huh. Could be...


----------



## FeXL

I post this here because I consider auto-driving cars as much a pipe dream as viable electric cars.

Electronic driving systems don’t always work, tests show



> Testing by AAA shows that electronic driver assist systems on the road today may not keep vehicles in their lanes or spot stationary objects in time to avoid a crash.
> 
> The tests brought a warning from the auto club that drivers shouldn’t think that the systems make their vehicles self-driving, and that they should always be ready to take control. AAA also said that use of the word “pilot” by automakers in naming their systems can make some owners believe the vehicles can drive themselves.


More:



> Brannon said that despite their shortcomings, *the systems have great potential to save lives and stop crashes from happening.*
> 
> “*Anything that can serve as a backstop to a good driver* is going to enhance the safety of the system, of the driver,” he said.


Emphasis mine.

And therein lies the rub. How many _good drivers_ on the road today? Damn few, in my experience...


----------



## FeXL

They Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> And they’re showing up to riot.
> 
> _ Police fired tear gas and used water cannon to disperse protesters in Paris who are angry over rising fuel costs and President Emmanuel Macron’s economic policies, the second weekend of “yellow vest” protests that have caused disruption across France.
> 
> Several hundred protesters had converged on the Champs Elysees where they faced police sent to prevent them from reaching the nearby presidential Elysee Palace.
> 
> Some protesters sang the national anthem while others carried signs with slogans saying “Macron, resignation” and “Macron, thief”.
> 
> For more than a week, protesters clad in the fluorescent yellow jackets that all motorists in France must have in their cars have blocked highways across the country with burning barricades and convoys of slow-moving trucks, obstructing access to fuel depots, shopping centres and some factories.
> 
> *They are opposed to taxes Macron introduced last year on diesel and petrol which are designed to encourage people to shift to more environmentally friendly transport. Alongside the tax, the government has offered incentives to buy green or electric vehicles.*_​


Bold mine.

Prescient comment:



> But Gerald HAS been paying attention, he gave the sweaty masses legal marijuana, eventually providing it free for people on the bottom third of the socioeconomic scale.
> 
> The French, Allah bless ’em, are fired with that smug Gallic macho bs, so occasionally they riot and burn a few things. What the hell, keeps them happy.
> 
> We in Canada, so far, only riot over hockey games or business conferences, and we haven’t gotten near as violent, yet.
> But remember, IF Canadians ever do get violent, we are ruled by the Son of “Just Watch Me”, and Sonofabitch will declare the War Measures Act or whatever replaced it in a short minute, and the Press will cheer his leadership,comparing him to Churchill in 1940, ” we shall smoke a joint,then we’ll fight on the beaches,and the landing grounds, in the hills and in the streets”………….at which point the CBC will declare Justin should be Emperor for Life.
> 
> Maybe one of the Duvaliers can give a speech at his coronation.


Nails it...


----------



## pm-r

> Nails it...



Will we ever get to eat cake...???


----------



## FeXL

pm-r said:


> Will we ever get to eat cake...???


Trudles will take care of that in no time...


----------



## CubaMark

_GM has just killed the Chevy Volt, but is "still committed" to EV development..._

*GM kills the Chevy Volt, shuts down factories, but accelerates EV investment*










GM announced today a major restructuring that will involve “doubling” the company’s investment in electric and self-driving cars, but they will pay for it by shutting down factories and laying off thousands of workers.

The company has also confirmed that the Chevy Volt will be discontinued.

Similar to what Ford did earlier this year, GM says that it is moving away from sedans and it is instead focusing on “trucks, crossovers and SUVs.”

They now say that they will prioritize “investments in its next-generation battery-electric architectures”:

“GM now intends to prioritize future vehicle investments in its next-generation battery-electric architectures. As the current vehicle portfolio is optimized, it is expected that more than 75 percent of GM’s global sales volume will come from five vehicle architectures by early next decade.”​
CEO Mary Barra said that it would result in doubling the company’s investment in electric vehicles and self-driving technology.

(Electrek)​


----------



## Macfury

GM should have been allowed to die in 2008.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> GM should have been allowed to die in 2008.


Yeppers. Along with the rest of 'em who received bailout money.

And, I will shed no tears for the "loss" of the Volt.


----------



## Macfury

Considering the poor sales of electric vehicles, I have no idea why GM is acting as though this is going to resurrect its sagging fortunes.


----------



## FeXL

And well he should.

Trump furious over plans for plant closures and layoffs, threatens to cut all federal aid to GM



> “Very disappointed with General Motors and their CEO, Mary Barra, for closing plants in Ohio, Michigan and Maryland,” the president tweeted. “Nothing being closed in Mexico & China. *The U.S. saved General Motors, and this is the THANKS we get!* We are now looking at cutting all @GM subsidies, including for electric cars. General Motors made a big China bet years ago when they built plants there (and in Mexico) - don’t think that bet is going to pay off. I am here to protect America’s Workers!”


M'bold.


----------



## FeXL

Ostensibly related to the above.

Trump plans to end subsidies for electric cars, renewable energy



> White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said Monday that plans were in the works to scrap subsidies for electric cars and other renewable energy items, Reuters reported.
> 
> Mr. Kudlow, director of the president’s National Economic Council, said the subsidies could end as soon as 2020. It is part of the administration’s response to General Motors closing plants and cutting jobs in the U.S.
> 
> ...
> 
> Mr. Kudlow said the rollback of subsidies would also include “renewables.”


I think Trump is using this as an excuse to put GM in a bad light. Frankly, I don't think that's required. GM looks bad enough on their own.

Either way, good on cutting the subsidies. Now, let's see how competitive renewables _actually_ are...


----------



## FeXL

When you've lost Loopy Ocasio-Fiasco...

Ocasio-Cortez Goes After Tesla: ‘We Got No Return On Our Investment’



> Democratic Rep.-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York slammed the electric car company Tesla Monday night for failing to give American taxpayers a return on their “investment.”
> 
> Ocasio-Cortez made the jab during a climate change town hall organized and hosted by self-proclaimed socialist Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
> 
> “When we as a public choose to invest in new technologies, we deserve a return on that investment,” Ocasio-Cortez said while talking about the broader Progressive agenda to fund renewable and green technology research with taxpayer money.
> 
> “For far too long, we gave money to Tesla, we gave money to a ton of people and we got no return on our investment that the public made in creating technologies, and it’s about time we get our due because it’s the public that funded and financed a lot of innovative technologies,” Ocasio Cortez continued.


Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every so often...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> When you've lost Loopy Ocasio-Fiasco...


She should start by identifying the taxpayer funded green investments that HAVE paid off.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> She should start by identifying the taxpayer funded green investments that HAVE paid off.


ø


----------



## FeXL

Further on ending electric car subsidies.

Trump Is Right — Subsidies For Electric Cars, Renewable Energy Must End



> President Trump's economic adviser Larry Kudlow says subsidies for electric cars and other renewable energy programs might soon be eliminated. That would be a major victory on the road to energy freedom.
> 
> ...
> 
> "As a matter of our policy, we want to end all of those subsidies," Kudlow said. "And by the way, other subsidies that were imposed during the Obama administration, we are ending, whether it's for renewables and so forth."
> 
> No doubt there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth within the Green Movement. *How will electric cars survive without government's guiding hand?
> 
> The answer is, most won't. Otherwise, the federal government wouldn't need to subsidize them.*


Bold mine.

:-(...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

As always, the gov't should not be picking winners & losers.

More:



> In a study for the Manhattan Institute's Economics 21 blog, economist Jonathan Lesser of Continental Resources, using government data on the expected number of new electric vehicles, found that *"the net reduction in carbon dioxide emissions between 2018 and 2050 would be only about one-half of 1 percent of total forecast U.S. energy-related carbon emissions."*
> 
> "Such a small change," Lesser concluded, "will have no impact whatsoever on climate."


Bold mine. There goes another Prog narrative.

Further:



> Moreover, the billions of dollars of subsidies and credits don't go to all Americans, but mainly to high-income ones, since electric cars are still highly expensive on average. As the Competitive Enterprise Institute explains, *"79% of EV (electric vehicle) tax credits were claimed by households with an adjusted gross income of more than $100,000 a year."
> 
> So Americans are subsidizing toys for the rich that aren't necessarily either as economic or clean as advertised.*


M'bold, too.

Shocka...


----------



## FeXL

Hey, CM, how come you never report on these issues re: electric cars? Or are 4 year old Congalese cobalt miners not victimized enough to bump your radar yet?

Child miners aged four living a hell on Earth so YOU can drive an electric car: Awful human cost in squalid Congo cobalt mine that Michael Gove didn’t consider in his ‘clean’ energy crusade



> Picking through a mountain of huge rocks with his tiny bare hands, the exhausted little boy makes a pitiful sight.
> 
> His name is Dorsen and he is one of an army of children, some just four years old, working in the vast polluted mines of the Democratic Republic of Congo, where toxic red dust burns their eyes, and they run the risk of skin disease and a deadly lung condition. Here, for a wage of just 8p a day, the children are made to check the rocks for the tell-tale chocolate-brown streaks of cobalt – the prized ingredient essential for the batteries that power electric cars.
> 
> And it’s feared that thousands more children could be about to be dragged into this hellish daily existence – after the historic pledge made by Britain to ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2040 and switch to electric vehicles.


If there were four year olds being forced to dig up northern Alberta tar sands with their bare hands, you'd be all over this, hypocrite...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Hey, CM, how come you never report on these issues re: electric cars? Or are 4 year old Congalese cobalt miners not victimized enough to bump your radar yet?


He is willing to put up with certain things in order to achieve _greenness_.


----------



## CubaMark

FYI, the definition of hypocrite, since you guys seem to be drawing a blank.

Cobalt "...is also used in other magnetic steels and stainless steels, and in alloys used in jet turbines and gas turbine generators. The metal is used in electroplating because of its appearance, hardness, and resistance to oxidation." ... "it can be used as a tracer element to find things like cancer. Cobalt is used in both glazes and the manufacture of pottery, ceramics, and even the tiles on your roof. Your body actually needs cobalt to survive. ... Cobalt is also used to manufacture vitamin B12....." ..."Since ancient times cobalt compounds have been used to produce blue glass and ceramics...." ... "It is widely used in cancer treatment, as a tracer and for radiotherapy." 
_(sources: ridiculously simple internet searches that anyone could also perform, were they so inclined)_​
As for the use of Cobalt specifically in batteries for electric cars, insofar as Tesla is concerned:

"Elon Musk tweeted that batteries for the Tesla Model 3 use less than 3 percent of an expensive chemical called cobalt, and the next generation battery “will use none”"
[....]
"A lot of companies, including Tesla, are interested in making the zero-cobalt battery. When do you think that will happen?

Tesla uses a formulation called NCA (nickel, cobalt, aluminum) that is already very low-cobalt. Over the last six years, Tesla and Panasonic [which supplies batteries to Tesla] have reduced cobalt dependency by about 60 percent already. That’s already very low. "
(The Verge)​
Child labor used in the mining of Cobalt isn't an invisible issue. Lots of coverage. Enough for you to know that it's not just electric vehicles that make use of it - it's anything with a Li-ion battery, including your smart phone and your laptop.

So - are you two ethical giants going to cast off your devices? Going to dedicate yourselves to educating the world on the evils of Cobalt mining? Push for the democratization of the Congo? What great plan do you have to end this horrendous state of affairs?

*crickets*

Yup.


----------



## Macfury

Do you really need to search the Internet to provide rudimentary information on cobalt?


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> Do you really need to search the Internet to provide rudimentary information on cobalt?





Just curious, but where would *you* suggest going to get some recent information of anything these days??

Especially if one is needing some supporting info to support their statements.

My teachers and professors always insisted on having and supplying supporting information on any statements and I thought the standards were sill in effect these days. It makes sense to me and even good journalists do the same thing from what I see and read.


----------



## Macfury

I didn't see any reason to look up information on cobalt that I thought might be common knowledge.



pm-r said:


> Just curious, but where would *you* suggest going to get some recent information of anything these days??
> 
> Especially if one is needing some supporting info to support their statements.
> 
> My teachers and professors always insisted on having and supplying supporting information on any statements and I thought the standards were sill in effect these days. It makes sense to me and even good journalists do the same thing from what I see and read.


----------



## FeXL

First off, no where in your response did you even bother to mention that this was a $h!tty thing for children to be doing. That throws into sharp relief where your mind <snort> set is right off the get go. Thank you & congratulations! 

Second, (and, as MF noted) I find it interesting that, in blind obeisance to your seriously f'ed up ideology, you are willing to rationalize slave child labour (Hey, everybody else is doing it! We're barely using 50% of the cobalt 4 years old are mining!).

Third, I'm not trying to save Gaia. You are...



CubaMark said:


> blah, blah-blah, blah-fukcing-blah...


----------



## FeXL

Further from the compassionate, intellectual, sophomoric left...

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Subsidy Rage Boy: Life Inside Tesla’s Production Hell


More:



> _Musk was spending the weekend in the Gigafactory, attempting to discover why machines weren’t functioning, why parts kept misaligning, why the software was crashing. Musk had demanded that his factories be automated as much as possible. But among the consequences of this extreme roboticization were delays and malfunctions. Tesla had spent more than $1 billion building the Gigafactory, and almost nothing was going as planned.
> 
> At about 10 o’clock on Saturday evening, an angry Musk was examining one of the production line’s mechanized modules, trying to figure out what was wrong, when the young, excited engineer was brought over to assist him.
> 
> “Hey, buddy, this doesn’t work!” Musk shouted at the engineer, according to someone who heard the conversation. “Did you do this?”
> 
> The engineer was taken aback. He had never met Musk before. Musk didn’t even know the engineer’s name. The young man wasn’t certain what, exactly, Musk was asking him, or why he sounded so angry.
> 
> “You mean, program the robot?” the engineer said. “Or design that tool?”
> 
> “Did you ****ing do this?” Musk asked him.
> 
> “I’m not sure what you’re referring to?” the engineer replied apologetically.
> 
> “You’re a ****ing idiot!” Musk shouted back. “Get the **** out and don’t come back!”_


Sounds like a helluva place to work!


----------



## FeXL

Stopping Elon Musk's money mirage



> Declaring the company's first quarterly profit in over two years as a "historic quarter," Tesla CEO Elon Musk has promised that the future of Tesla will be brighter, expecting the fourth quarter and "all quarters going forward" to be profitable. But what reason do taxpayers and lawmakers have to believe him?
> 
> *Tesla has had only three profitable quarters in the 15 years since its creation.* The third-quarter results reported that Tesla made a $312-million profit due to a surge in production and sales of the Tesla Model 3 sedan. The earnings were thanks in part to the company's cost-cutting, spending less on future models, and *delaying of payments to suppliers*.


Bold mine.

Three profitable quarters in 60. And people are still buying his stock? Idiots...

In addition, I'd wondered out loud what kind of creative accounting had been executed in order to generate their recent profit. Now I know...


----------



## eMacMan

So of passing interest.

Entire article here:
https://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/news/watch-a-tesla-catch-fire-twice-following-a-flat

Video towards the end of the article is worth 2 or 3 minutes.


----------



## CubaMark

_The mental capacity of a three-year-old on a sugar rush being denied his favourite toy.... Really, what is wrong with some people?_

*Tesla Supercharger gets taken over by anti-Tesla pickup truck drivers acting aggressively*










...a bunch of pickup truck drivers used their trucks to block access to a Supercharger station and reportedly yelled profanities about Tesla until they were removed from the premises.

The incident happened in Hickory, North Carolina last weekend.

A Tesla owner and Reddit user Leicina stopped to charge at the local Supercharger station located next to a Sheetz, but all the stalls were blocked by 3 large pickup trucks.

This is not exactly uncommon and it is referred to in EV community as ‘Icing’ a charging station – when ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles are occupying a space for an EV.

* * *

Leicina wrote about the incident:

“I’ve never had a supercharging experience like this one. These trucks blocked all the chargers, chanted “F” Tesla, and were kicked out by a Sheetz employee.”​
An employee from Sheetz, who is in charge of the parking lot, ended making them leave at the request of the Tesla owner.

Leicina said that it “took them 10 minutes or so and one of them did that ‘I’m going to hit you’ maneuver after circling the parking lot.”
(Electrek)​


----------



## Macfury

Same thing happens at the gas and air pumps in a gas station with a Tim Horton's.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Same thing happens at the gas and air pumps in a gas station with a Tim Horton's.


Huh? 

Tim Horton's has a problem with yahoos using "...their trucks to block access to a Supercharger station and reportedly yelled profanities about Tesla..."


----------



## Macfury

Neither is the Tim Hortons located at a North Carolina Sheetz.

Looks like your big story never got picked up in the regular press, so I'll withhold any judgement until there are some facts to consider.


----------



## FeXL

So, lemme get this straight...

Musk subsidy farms $5 billion from the US gov't, then decides to take the taxpayers' money to China to build a factory for "affordable" Model 3's?

Is that about right?

Tesla breaks ground on first production plant in China



> Tesla on Monday broke ground on its first production factory in Shanghai, a move that comes amid an ongoing trade dispute between the U.S. and China.
> 
> The Shanghai plant will focus on producing "affordable versions" of Tesla's Model 3 electric sedan the and Model Y SUV, founder Elon Musk wrote on Twitter. All other models will continue to be made in the U.S.


If I was Trump I'd throw a $10k/unit import tax on these foreign made Tesla's in a New York minute.

You get free money from the US gov't, you spend it in the US. Period.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> You get free money from the US gov't, you spend it in the US. Period.


He's segregated the US money, see? That's Musk Money in China!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> He's segregated the US money, see? That's Musk Money in China!


In my best valley girl: I'm suuuure.

:lmao:


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> _ A decade-old goal to get at least half a million electric cars on Canada’s roads by the end of 2018 appears to have missed the mark by more than 400,000.
> 
> The 2009 Electric Vehicle Technology Road Map for Canada, produced by a panel of experts in part for the Department of Natural Resources, aimed for 500,000 cars with the hope of galvanizing industry to make and sell them and government to encourage people to buy them.
> […]
> 
> 
> The Liberals in 2016 promised a national strategy for electric vehicles by the end of 2018. Thus far they haven’t delivered and a spokeswoman for Transport Minister Marc Garneau says she can’t say when it will come.
> 
> *In the last three years the federal government has spent $182 million to buy and install more vehicle-charging stations.*_​
> Falling 80% short of their targets didn’t stop their pimps in media from torquing the headlines.


M'bold.

Once again, why are the blissfully ignorant Prog idiots p!$$ing away my tax money picking winners & losers?

Hey, Piggy!

Sou!!!


----------



## FeXL

The iron...

Self-driving Tesla collides with autonomous robot in Las Vegas



> A Russian robotics company said one of its autonomous Promobots was taken out by a self-driving Tesla on the eve of the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
> 
> ...
> 
> Multiple cars easily pass by the autonomous robot, but a self-driving Tesla Model S collides with the robot and drives away.


Hit & Run!!!


----------



## Rps

Tesla makes sense in China. Closer to home, though, is Rivian. They will be producing pickups and SUV only, but at $72,000 U.S. a pop there are many more economical alternatives......and ones that are more efficient in colder weather.

https://youtu.be/QMfxJEfb4lw


----------



## 18m2

Nice.

That equates to $95,500 CDN and add to that another 13% (GST and PST) brings the cost up to $108,000. I think I'll stick with my old Taco and buy a Porsche instead.


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> Nice.
> 
> That equates to $95,500 CDN and add to that another 13% (GST and PST) brings the cost up to $108,000. I think I'll stick with my old Taco and buy a Porsche instead.


Oh, no, no, no, no, nooooo!

You forget!

Gov't is using its _free_ money to subsidize these virtue signalling babies. As a matter of fact, you can buy one of these coal-powered, Gaia-saving marvels of subsidy farming for only $9998.00! And, because they're _green_, no tax! As a matter of fact, they'll mail _you_ a cheque for treble the tax amount!

And, _and_, free batteries for life!

Idn't being green wunnerful?


----------



## polywog

FeXL said:


> Oh, no, no, no, no, nooooo!
> 
> You forget!
> 
> Gov't is using its _free_ money to subsidize these virtue signalling babies. As a matter of fact, you can buy one of these coal-powered, Gaia-saving marvels of subsidy farming for only $9998.00! And, because they're _green_, no tax! As a matter of fact, they'll mail _you_ a cheque for treble the tax amount!
> 
> And, _and_, free batteries for life!
> 
> Idn't being green wunnerful?


If only they could power these with the CFL bulbs they also said were a good idea.


----------



## Macfury

polywog said:


> If only they could power these with the CFL bulbs they also said were a good idea.


The whole program was written by industry to switch people to expensive lights they would never voluntarily buy. I still buy incandescent 100 watt "rough service" bulbs, which were exempt, at the dollar store.


----------



## polywog

Macfury said:


> The whole program was written by industry to switch people to expensive lights they would never voluntarily buy. I still buy incandescent 100 watt "rough service" bulbs, which were exempt, at the dollar store.


I've always been a halogen (and dimmer) kind of guy, so that whole bad chapter didn't have much impact on me.


----------



## eMacMan

I've said it before:

This is Canada, 9 months of the year that heat generated by incandescent bulbs is not wasted. The other 3 months days are so long that lights are not needed as long as you have windows.


----------



## Macfury

polywog said:


> I've always been a halogen (and dimmer) kind of guy, so that whole bad chapter didn't have much impact on me.


I've recently noticed stores deliberately eliminating halogens in favour of LEDs. Again, I can still get halogens at the dollar store.


----------



## pm-r

polywog said:


> I've always been a *halogen (and dimmer)* kind of guy, so that whole bad chapter didn't have much impact on me.



If you are talking about using halogens, or worse, for your car's headlamp bulbs, do yourself a favour, and for your own safety and night driving pleasure, purchase some decent LED headlamp bulb replacements, and have them professionally aligned.

You can get some *good quality fanless* headlamp replacement LED bulbs in the $30.00 - $50.00 range via amazon.ca.

What a marvellous difference if one drives an older model car with halogens or worse installed. 

I had them installed in both our cars for both the headlamps and driving/fog lamps. 


- Patrick
======


----------



## polywog

pm-r said:


> If you are talking about using halogens, or worse, for your car's headlamp bulbs, do yourself a favour, and for your own safety and night driving pleasure, purchase some decent LED headlamp bulb replacements, and have them professionally aligned.
> 
> You can get some *good quality fanless* headlamp replacement LED bulbs in the $30.00 - $50.00 range via amazon.ca.
> 
> What a marvellous difference if one drives an older model car with halogens or worse installed.
> 
> I had them installed in both our cars for both the headlamps and driving/fog lamps.
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> ======


No, I was referring to in house. 

If you're talking about those obnoxious bright white LEDs, I wish they would be banned. Sure they're great for the driver, but they are no less blinding than high beams for everyone else on the road.


----------



## pm-r

polywog said:


> No, I was referring to in house.
> 
> If you're talking about those obnoxious bright white LEDs, I wish they would be banned. Sure they're great for the driver, but they are no less blinding than high beams for everyone else on the road.



Don't blame the LED headlamp bulbs for any obnoxious glare, blame the driver instead for _*not having them installed and aligned properly*_.

That goes for cars using bright halogen bulbs as well (usually high-end European models if you notice). Get them aligned properly.



- Patrick
======


----------



## eMacMan

pm-r said:


> Don't blame the LED headlamp bulbs for any obnoxious glare, blame the driver instead for _*not having them installed and aligned properly*_.
> 
> That goes for cars using bright halogen bulbs as well (usually high-end European models if you notice). Get them aligned properly.
> 
> - Patrick
> ======


You seem to be suggesting that they come from the factory misaligned. I sure can't recall seeing a set that did not blind me. That goes for the street lamps they are installing, they pull your eyes upwards then stick daggers in them. Lately when I drive around town at night I have the sunshades down for that reason.


----------



## pm-r

eMacMan said:


> You seem to be suggesting that they come from the factory misaligned. I sure can't recall seeing a set that did not blind me. That goes for the street lamps they are installing, they pull your eyes upwards then stick daggers in them. Lately when I drive around town at night I have the sunshades down for that reason.



This sound like a typical thing that occurs with many seniors as they age or just one's eye's not being able to cope with "bright lights" that often comes with ageing.

Many are now wearing or using yellow lens glasses or eye protectors to help offset such problems and improve night vision, or even bright daylight as well.

Not being sarcastic here but you might want to give them a try. Even the yellow safety glasses work and often fit over one's glasses if one normally wears glasses.



- Patrick
======


----------



## SINC

pm-r said:


> Don't blame the LED headlamp bulbs for any obnoxious glare, blame the driver instead for _*not having them installed and aligned properly*_.
> 
> That goes for cars using bright halogen bulbs as well (usually high-end European models if you notice). Get them aligned properly.
> 
> 
> 
> - Patrick
> ======


I sure as hell blame them.

I have yet to approach a vehicle with these monster lights that do not blind me unless I look away.

According to your theory, that would mean every single set on the road today is misaligned.

Every Single Set.

Sorry, don't buy that at all.


----------



## polywog

SINC said:


> I sure as hell blame them.
> 
> I have yet to approach a vehicle with these monster lights that do not blind me unless I look away.
> 
> According to your theory, that would mean every single set on the road today is misaligned.
> 
> Every Single Set.
> 
> Sorry, don't buy that at all.


They are all very misaligned; they should either be pointing straight into the ground, or into the owners eyes.


----------



## Rps

SINC said:


> I sure as hell blame them.
> 
> I have yet to approach a vehicle with these monster lights that do not blind me unless I look away.
> 
> According to your theory, that would mean every single set on the road today is misaligned.
> 
> Every Single Set.
> 
> Sorry, don't buy that at all.


Sinc I think the issue really is we have had such poor headlamps over the years that we have become used to poor lighting. When we actually see the lights how they should be they seem overly bright. Across the river In Michigan a consumer’s group did a study on vehicle headlamps and found that virtually all manufacturers install subpar headlamps.


----------



## eMacMan

FWIW My vision is excellent, deterioration almost non-existent. The halogen lamps on my Toyota set on dimmed give me an adequate field of vision at 90KPH, even with slightly yellowed lenses. I see out of alignment halogen lamps quite routinely and they do not blind me. 

Unlike halogen lamps, LEDs do blind me. Especially if they are even a tiny smidge out of alignment, or the oncoming driver does not dim, or the oncoming driver is cresting a hill, or his lights are aimed into my lane due to a curve in the road. In your neck of the woods all the roads may be straight, flat and 4-lane divided, but that is not so in my area.


----------



## pm-r

SINC said:


> I sure as hell blame them.
> 
> I have yet to approach a vehicle with these monster lights that do not blind me unless I look away.
> 
> According to your theory, that would mean every single set on the road today is misaligned.
> 
> Every Single Set.
> 
> Sorry, don't buy that at all.




See my post #1363 above. And you may be so afflicted, especially if most of the oncoming headlights affect you the same way.

I daresay if the problem was as bad as you suggest, then the police would be doing something about all the headlights that don't meet provincial specifications.

A lot of seniors I know in their late 70s and into their 80s have decided to avoid or refuse to drive at night now due to poor night vision. And dark, rainy wet reflective roads sure help reinforce their decision.

But, for your own good, do make sure your own headlights are up to the latest standards, and that will probably involve using good quality LED headlight bulbs — properly aligned.





- Patrick
======


----------



## polywog

pm-r said:


> See my post #1363 above. And you may be so afflicted, especially if most of the oncoming headlights affect you the same way.


I'm no where near my senior years, and have no problems with eyesight, apart from needing reading glasses. And yet, I whole heartedly agree.

Regardless of why LEDs are an apparent problem, they are a problem. They come from the dealership a problem. OEM are a problem. It doesn't matter if it's because they aren't properly aligned, nor that they are using a halogen reflector with the LEDs. The current state of affairs is they are more often than not as bright as high beams and are a hazard to everyone except the driver.



pm-r said:


> I daresay if the problem was as bad as you suggest, then the police would be doing something about all the headlights that don't meet provincial specifications.


How would a typical cruiser (in Ontario) determine if the light exceeds 300 candela? 

Rest assured as the police and RCMP deal with more and more complaints, you can bet there will be a breaking point reached.


----------



## pm-r

> How would a typical cruiser (in Ontario) determine if the light exceeds 300 candela?



Quite right. And the other stupid thing is that most provincial on-road vehicle regulations state a _*maximum wattage*_ for headlight and driving/fog lamp bulbs which could blow anyone's eyeballs into blindness if and when applied to LED bulbs. And focusing and alignment can only do so much to control the light beam.





- Patrick
======


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Frozen Sparky Cars



> More: The cold weather and snow couldn’t have come at a worse time for $TSLA. Facebook groups are getting flooded with frozen door handle and charge port complaints.


:-(

<sniff>


----------



## Rps

Speaking as an owner of an electric car, there is some merit to this in the design of the Tesla and probably others. With ICE vehicles you only open the gas cap access door when you are filling up. The problem with many electric vehicles is ....that access door to charge is quite large and blowing snow can fill in around the charging unit. Thus it would appear the designers forgot about winter. You do loose some range in very cold weather so electric vehicles are ideally suited for warmer climes to run optimally. The after market has designed “snowploughs” or cover pieces which prevent snow and ice from getting packed in the charging unit.....an item the designers didn’t think about I am sure .


----------



## polywog

FeXL said:


> We Don’t Need No Frozen Sparky Cars
> 
> 
> 
> :-(
> 
> <sniff>


Didn't the Mayor post about this... Seem to remember after an ice storm, his Tesla doors were frozen shut, or at least the handles were frozen in.


----------



## FeXL

polywog said:


> Didn't the Mayor post about this... Seem to remember after an ice storm, his Tesla doors were frozen shut, or at least the handles were frozen in.


Hmm... No recollection.

In fairness, after any ice storm all of our vehicle doors can be difficult to open (the water goes down the door seams & freezes the door to the rubber gasket) but none of our vehicles have ever had the gas filler door freeze shut.


----------



## CubaMark

(deleted - old news)


----------



## polywog

FeXL said:


> Hmm... No recollection.
> 
> In fairness, after any ice storm all of our vehicle doors can be difficult to open (the water goes down the door seams & freezes the door to the rubber gasket) but none of our vehicles have ever had the gas filler door freeze shut.


Well that's great. Now it's going to nag at me to remember who it was with that story! Could have sworn it was on ehMac and that it was ehMax.


----------



## Macfury

polywog said:


> Well that's great. Now it's going to nag at me to remember who it was with that story! Could have sworn it was on ehMac and that it was ehMax.


I remember EhMax was a big guy driving a fairly small car. He posted a photo of it once and it was not a Tesla.


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> I remember EhMax was a big guy driving a fairly small car. He posted a photo of it once and it was not a Tesla.




Would this do??

I also recall his photo of a small car with his business logo etc. when he was repairing iPhones and replacing broken glass as a business.

I think this was even earlier that might have been the mayor:
https://www.ehmac.ca/members/ehmax-...dont-laugh-me-because-i-drive-little-car.html


----------



## FeXL

polywog said:


> Well that's great. Now it's going to nag at me to remember who it was with that story! Could have sworn it was on ehMac and that it was ehMax.


:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

What are all the virtue-signallers going to do after they stop Globull Warming & the temperature drops?

We Don’t Need No Frozen Sparky Cars



> IF ONLY SOMEONE HAD WARNED THEM.
> 
> “My biggest concern is the cold weather drained my battery 20 to 25 miles overnight and an extra five to ten miles on my drive to work. I paid $60,000 to not drain my battery so quickly,”​


More:



> As with everything, Elon Musk tweeted that there would be an over the air software update that would address how cars are holding up in cold weather. Given that the company can’t physically readjust door handles over the air, we’re guessing the fix will wind up being something that puts further pressure on an already drained battery. And recall, back in November, we had already reported that Tesla was going to "fix" these issues with a vague software update.
> 
> In terms of that "fix", it looks as though the only thing that was addressed was the window not always coming down after the door opened. Since there are no door frames on the Model 3 doors, the window rolling down is semi-necessary to help open the door once the handle has popped out.
> 
> In the release notes of its new software improvement in late 2018, Tesla said very little:
> 
> _ “Window position and charge connector locking behaviors have been optimized for cold weather.”_​
> *As we stated back in November, we're still waiting for Elon Musk's software update that'll stop cold weather altogether.*


Bold mine...

:lmao:


----------



## pm-r

Macfury said:


> I remember EhMax was a big guy driving a fairly small car. He posted a photo of it once and it was not a Tesla.




How about these shots of the Mayor and his car???

Seek and you will find, at it was bugging me. But I thought there might be another one and I thought the small car had more yellow colors:

These are from:
https://www.ehmac.ca/all-ios-iphone...d-expanding-across-canada-got-what-takes.html

- Patrick
======


----------



## FeXL

Observation drawn from the comments section of the link from my last post:



> All EVs should have to pay road taxes based on miles driven per year (like gas vehicles do) *and they should be charged an environmental fee for lithium and cobalt mine clean ups.*


Bold mine.

Yep. Coupla days back The Bigot was crowing about the success of forcing oil companies in Alberta to conduct environmental cleanup at well sites.

How d'ya s'pose he'll feel about this?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> How d'ya s'pose he'll feel about this?


:-(


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> :-(


<snort>

More likely this: tptptptp


----------



## Macfury

Hey, there are a lot of people like CM who don't care about cost or efficiency, and they're embracing the future.


----------



## FeXL

Yep. When somebody else is footing the cost, damn the torpedoes! Full Speed ahead. We're saving Gaia!!! 

XX)


----------



## FeXL

MF! Another foreign electric vehicle!

The cheapest Chinese electric cars are coming to the US and Europe—for as little as $9,000



> China already sells more electric vehicles than the rest of the world combined. And there’s a long list of the categories you can choose from—including large buses, sports cars, two-wheeled motorcycles, and zippy scooters.
> 
> One of the hottest categories in that list is “tiny cars.” These mini-vehicles can cost as little as $1,000 and, in China at least, you don’t even need a driver’s license to use them. The catch? Their top speed is less than 40 miles per hour, they run on cheap lead-acid batteries, and they have little to no crash protection.
> 
> That’s not much of a concern for Chinese users, who are buying these low-speed electric vehicles (LSEVs) like hot cakes.


Chinese Automaker Will Sell $8,950 Electric Pickup Truck in U.S.



> Not every American has the need for a giant Ford F-150 pickup truck. At least, that’s what Chinese automaker Kaiyun Motors is banking on.
> 
> The company’s Pickman is a petite but spartan electric pickup truck that the company plans to sell in the U.S. And the price tag is only a fraction of a full-size American-built pickup truck, starting at just $8,950 for a road-legal version, according to Fox News.


More:



> The Pickman will feature an advertised range of 75 miles (120 km), and its top speed is capped at a sluggish 28 mph (45 km/h) — not exactly a road-trip-worthy highway cruiser.
> 
> But that’s not the point. It will be able to carry 1,100 pounds (500 kg) of cargo, which could make it an appealing low-cost utility vehicle. In China it costs just $5,700, but the U.S. version will carry the $8,950 price tag.


With stats like that, it makes me wonder if some farmers/ranchers will choose these over the very pricey ATV's out there.


----------



## Macfury

I think people will want to buy Tesla cargo trucks because they're so hip! (Has anyone seen one of these on the road yet?)


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> (Has anyone seen one of these on the road yet?)


Nope. But I'm thinking in the -27 weather we had this morning, you're far more likely to see them _on the side_ of the road...

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

I kill me...


----------



## Macfury

The Tesla cargo truck offers great corporate virtue signalling. Just add another one to your pre-order, knowing they will never be delivered.



FeXL said:


> Nope. But I'm thinking in the -27 weather we had this morning, you're far more likely to see them _on the side_ of the road...
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:
> 
> I kill me...


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Frozen Sparky Cars



> Nobody saw this coming;
> 
> A new AAA study finds that when the thermometer dropped to *20 degrees Fahrenheit*, [EV] range fell by an average of 41 percent on the five models it tested.
> 
> “We found that the impact of temperature on EVs is significantly more than we expected,” said Greg Brannon, AAA’s director of automotive engineering.
> 
> Some EV drivers — including this correspondent — recently found that range can drop by half when the mercury tumbles into negative territory. The AAA study appears to be the first to have used standard, repeatable methodology to confirm the problem and compare the effect of winter temperatures on different models.​
> Except for, eh, almost everybody.


Bold mine.

20°F? :yikes: For those of you who are not bilingual, that's about -7°C. I've ridden the Hawg in -7.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> We Don’t Need No Frozen Sparky Cars
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> 20°F? :yikes: For those of you who are not bilingual, that's about -7°C. I've ridden the Hawg in -7.


My primitive fossil-fueled Impala has the same range at 30°C as it does at -25°C. We need to find new and expensive ways for society to compensate for the EV cold weather effect. Maybe subsidize the construction of trailers containing anti-freeze. During warm temperatures, the battery will pump the anti-freeze into an upper chamber. It can be released during extremely cold weather to power a turbine to provide some extra range for these futuristic vehicles.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> My primitive fossil-fueled Impala has the same range at 30°C as it does at -25°C. We need to find new and expensive ways for society to compensate for the EV cold weather effect. Maybe subsidize the construction of trailers containing anti-freeze. During warm temperatures, the battery will pump the anti-freeze into an upper chamber. It can be released during extremely cold weather to power a turbine to provide some extra range for these futuristic vehicles.


Yep. All tax-payer funded, of course.

In addition to the taxpayer funded free grants to EV companies, taxpayer funded subsidies to "Green" power, taxpayer funded charging stations, etc., etc., etc.

But it's all free! FREE, I tells ya!!!


----------



## FeXL

Let's talk the SOTU s'more.

Pelosi Outsmarted Herself on the SOTU



> When House Speaker Nancy Pelosi withdrew her original State of the Union invitation, preventing President Trump from delivering the address as scheduled on January 29, she was probably surprised when he responded with such calm forbearance: “This is her prerogative. I will do the address when the shutdown is over.” By the time Trump finished the rescheduled speech Tuesday evening, she no doubt understood that her petty political ploy had been a blunder. Trump, being no mean showman, had long since realized that the highly publicized delay would increase public interest in the speech — and that is precisely what happened.


It's not a matter of her outsmarting herself. She's simply not smart enough to be able to read the outcome of short sightedness.

Ocasio-Cortez: 'Major Coincidence' That Trump Mentioned Socialism



> “Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country,” President Donald Trump said last night in his State of the Union Address.
> 
> Following Trump's speech, MSNBC asked Democratic-Socialist Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (N.Y.) if she thinks Trump was directing the remark to her.
> 
> "I mean, I think that there's certainly a major coincidence...with me and several others coming in -- in this Congress and him choosing to send that message in this State of the Union," Ocasio-Cortez responded.


Major. No, MAJOR!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Don't flatter yourself, sweetheart. He didn't even know you were there...

Stay Free



> As President Trump demonstrated in his State of the Union address last night, the most effective way to attack the socialist tendency is not nitpicking at its particulars but attacking it at the normative level—by explaining how socialism runs contrary to basic American values.
> 
> *“We are alarmed,” said Trump, “by new calls to adopt socialism in our country. America was founded on liberty and independence—and not government coercion, domination and control.” Trump reframed the debate from a discussion about price to one of principle. “We are born free, and we will stay free.”*


Bold mine.

Related:

Victims of Socialism in Venezuela Warn U.S.: 'Don't Fall for It,' 'People are Eating from Trash Bags'



> Victims of Venezuelan socialism who have come to America recently attended a Venezuela Freedom Rally in Washington, D.C., where Campus Reform asked them for their message to Americans who support socialism.
> 
> “*Bernie Sanders is your enemy. Do not ever, ever get involved with this individual or any of the other socialists,” one man who escaped Venezuelan socialism warned.* “People are eating from trash bags in the streets,” one woman said. “In Venezuela, there is no food, no medicine, education. No, nothing, nothing,” another woman added.


M'bold.

:clap:


----------



## eMacMan

Further on that cold weather range reduction. That was a 40% reduction at 20°F (-7°C). Wonder what that effect is at our current -20°F (-29°C)?

I do know my camera has a little Li ion battery and normally will get about 150 images on a charge. Take it outside on a cold day and after 3 or 4 images I am getting the low battery warning even starting with a full charge. So obviously the range loss should have been anticipated.


----------



## FeXL

I, For One, Welcome Our New Self-Driving Overlords



> Boomberg Law;
> 
> A Tesla car crashed into a Virginia couple’s home on two occasions when its parking assistance features failed, a new lawsuit alleges.
> 
> Bikan and Daljit Octain paid $111,450 for a 2016 Tesla Model S 90D Automobile, including a *$3,000 charge for the “Full Self-Driving Capability,”* they allege in a suit in Virginia Circuit Court against Tesla Inc. and Tesla Motors Inc.
> 
> This capability includes the “Tesla Autopark” feature, which allows the car to be parked remotely, the complaint said. It also includes the “Tesla Summon” feature that lets owners move the car in and out of a parking space from outside the vehicle using a mobile app or the key, the complaint alleges.
> 
> But the car crashed itself once into their home and months later drove itself into the wall of their garage when they attempted to use the parking assist features, the Octains allege.​
> Maybe it was just stoned.


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

Here we go again...

Electric truck startup announces $700 million funding round led by Amazon



> On Friday, electric truck startup Rivian announced a $700 million funding round led by Amazon. The announcement is notable not just for the size of the investment but also due to Amazon's involvement.
> 
> Rivian debuts new US-made electric truck and SUV with 400-mile range
> The e-commerce giant has made a variety of investments in mobility, and electric trucks and SUVs like the kind Rivian debuted at the Los Angeles Auto Show in November could help the company further its ambitions in that regard.


----------



## Rps

FeXL I’ve commented on Rivian before....I think this is a company with the right vision for EVs.......that said $78,000 for a pickup truck and the drain on the grid will be an issue. Even with L2 and L3 chargers it takes tooooooo much time to “refill” the unit. Cost is always going to be the key and right now this unit is too expensive.


----------



## Macfury

The market isn't asking for these trucks at this price. Not sure who they're hoping to appeal to.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The market isn't asking for these trucks at this price. Not sure who they're hoping to appeal to.


Well-heeled virtue signallers?

Most of them will be interested in cars, not light duty trucks.

Beyond that is functionality. Yes, there are any number of 3/4 & one ton pickups in my area that are used to run into town for groceries or other light duty. However, at some point they are usually backed up to a fifth wheel or tag trailer & put to work.

How's that battery life going to pan out with a Snowbird's 38 foot fifth wheel holiday trailer enroute to Phoenix for the winter? Or a 26 foot stock trailer hauling a load of cattle or hogs 75 miles to market?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Well-heeled virtue signallers?
> 
> Most of them will be interested in cars, not light duty trucks.
> 
> Beyond that is functionality. Yes, there are any number of 3/4 & one ton pickups in my area that are used to run into town for groceries or other light duty. However, at some point they are usually backed up to a fifth wheel or tag trailer & put to work.
> 
> How's that battery life going to pan out with a Snowbird's 38 foot fifth wheel holiday trailer enroute to Phoenix for the winter? Or a 26 foot stock trailer hauling a load of cattle or hogs 75 miles to market?


The people I know who rely on their trucks for business often put 400 miles on them in a single day--and that 400 miles quoted for the "Rivian" is the maximum range under optimal conditions, no trailers, no load.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> The people I know who rely on their trucks for business often put 400 miles on them in a single day--and that 400 miles quoted for the "Rivian" is the maximum range under optimal conditions, no trailers, no load.


<snort> Downhill both ways? :lmao:

And likely no sub-zero temperatures with the heater on or hot summer days with the A/C on.


----------



## FeXL

Well, let's talk the subsidy farmer's cars s'more:

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Consumer Reports pulls the plug on Subsidy Fraud Boy’s car;
> 
> “When we look at the Model 3 lot of the issues are the electronics,” Jake Fisher, the senior director of automotive testing at Consumer Reports, told CNBC. “There are some issues replacing the (navigation/infotainment) screens, for instance, but we’ve seen other issues in terms of the trim breaking and the glass.”
> 
> Fisher noted that CR’s reliability metrics are based on long-term reports from vehicle owners as well as its own evaluations and vehicle crash performance. In this case, the feedback from owners has reflected general concerns about how well the Model 3 was assembled. Fisher also noted that even the test vehicle CR purchased (the company buys all of its cars) had a small stress fracture in one rear window.​
> Only a year behind the Tesla Owners Forum.


When you've lost CR...

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Zerohedge;
> 
> Tesla slams into tree in Florida, bursting into flames and killing driver before reigniting in tow yard.​
> But wait! There’s more!
> 
> *“Police say officers tried to save the driver but couldn’t open the door because there was not a handle.”*​


Bold mine.

The more cynical of us would simply call that Darwinism at work. 

However, having served as a volunteer member of a fire, ambulance & rescue department for some time, we always carried an automatic centre punch that made quick work of non-tempered (side & rear window) glass.

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> *Victim of Road Range*: A probationer who led Riverside police officers on a dangerous, high-speed pursuit in a luxury electric sports car was arrested after the plug-in car’s batteries died…


M'bold.

Best. Headline. Evah... :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Guess he should've been pulling a trailer with a gen set attached...


----------



## FeXL

More of that white privilege. :lmao:

People with Dark Skin at Higher Risk of Being Hit by Self-Driving Cars, Study Finds



> AI has a problem. Apparently, it's racist. Specifically, self-driving cars are racist because people of color have a greater chance of being run over by one than white people do, according to a new study published by the Georgia Institute of Technology.
> 
> The study concludes that the existing recognition technology used in self-driving cars has a harder time recognizing humans the darker their skin is. The authors write:
> 
> We give evidence that standard models for the task of object detection, trained on standard datasets, appear to exhibit higher precision on lower Fitzpatrick skin types than higher skin types. This behavior appears on large images of pedestrians, and even grows when we remove occluded pedestrians. Both of these cases (small pedestrians and occluded pedestrians) are known difﬁcult cases for object detectors, so even on the relatively “easy” subset of pedestrian examples, we observe this predictive inequity.
> 
> The study is long and complicated, filled with details and big words that I had to look up. And the study is also important. Whether we like it or not, our society is moving rather quickly toward having more and more things automated. Self-driving cars will eventually be ubiquitous. Because of that, it's comforting knowing that people much smarter than me are attempting to uncover potential problems with the technology in order to find solutions. But none of that is why I pitched this article to my editor.


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!*

Federal budget expected to offer subsidies for electric cars



> Environment and Climate Change Minister Catherine McKenna released the council’s report in Montreal, Que. on Thursday, saying the government is committed to increasing the availability of lower-emission transportation.
> 
> The federal government’s pre-election budget is expected to include subsidies for Canadians to purchase electric cars as part of Ottawa’s long-promised commitment to adopt a zero-emission vehicle strategy to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions.


More:



> In a report to Ms. McKenna and Finance Minister Bill Morneau, the advisory council said EVs and plug-in hybrids “have quickly emerged as a viable alternative to gasoline or diesel vehicles,” *but still require federal support to ensure broader appeal*. In addition to the rebate, it recommended that Ottawa help fund a national network of charging stations, similar to the effort in Quebec, which now has 1,000 public charging outlets and is committed to having 2,000 by the end of 2020.


Bold mine.

Good ol' Climate Barbie. Just like pouring chocolate on a turd...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Federal budget expected to offer subsidies for electric cars
> 
> 
> 
> More:
> 
> 
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> Good ol' Climate Barbie. Just like pouring chocolate on a turd...


Check out the press response to the new Tesla Model Y "SUV"--ranged between disbelief and pity.


----------



## Rps

As an owner of an EV, subsidies are not really the answer ( that is once we figure out how the grid can handle the future volume in electric cars ) what really costs is the charger. An economical solution would be to have all new homes and condos with parking spaces have a 240 volt line run in the garage or parking space as part of the building code. Similar to driers in homes, this outside line is cost effective as no tax rebates are involved. A small step. Putting in an L2 charger is around $1200.... but depending on where your panel is located the repair to the interior of the house for the line installation can be around $3000 for an already completed basement. Only production volume will decrease the price of EVs....subsidies not so much.


----------



## 18m2

Rather than giving a subsidy I prefer to see the government tax fossil burning vehicles similar to what the Norwegians do. Norway does not tax electric vehicles.


----------



## FeXL

18m2 said:


> Rather than giving a subsidy I prefer to see the government tax fossil burning vehicles similar to what the Norwegians do. Norway does not tax electric vehicles.


Why? What's wrong with the free market deciding which products live & which ones die?


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> As an owner of an EV, subsidies are not really the answer ( that is once we figure out how the grid can handle the future volume in electric cars ) what really costs is the charger. An economical solution would be to have all new homes and condos with parking spaces have a 240 volt line run in the garage or parking space as part of the building code. Similar to driers in homes, this outside line is cost effective as no tax rebates are involved. A small step. Putting in an L2 charger is around $1200.... but depending on where your panel is located the repair to the interior of the house for the line installation can be around $3000 for an already completed basement. Only production volume will decrease the price of EVs....subsidies not so much.


Why should builders be forced by code to cater to a tiny number of EVs? Why not let market demand determine if people want this option in their home?



18m2 said:


> Rather than giving a subsidy I prefer to see the government tax fossil burning vehicles similar to what the Norwegians do. Norway does not tax electric vehicles.


Why should there be any preferential treatment for EVs at all?


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Why should builders be forced by code to cater to a tiny number of EVs? Why not let market demand determine if people want this option in their home?
> 
> 
> 
> Why should there be any preferential treatment for EVs at all?



Actually I favour hitting anyone, who installs a 220 circuit to charge an electric car, with a healthy surcharge to make up for the gasoline taxes the do pay. In most provinces those taxes go to maintaining the highway infrastructure. Better yet add an extra $500/year to the registration fees for electric vehicles.


If they become as popular as the Greenie Weenies are hoping to see, then that $500 annual fee will be needed to not only offset lost gas tax revenue but to beef up the power infrastructure.


----------



## Macfury

Agreed. EVs are getting a free ride by not paying for the roads they use.


----------



## Rps

MacFury, I think whether you agree with it or not EVs are coming so why not ease the transition. That said, do EV users get a free pass......maybe but again a gas tax is not the answer.....what they should be doing is making all roads toll roads. Our problem is we don’t really get a sense how much roads cost as they have been “free” since the days of horse and buggy. But, in our society taxing gas, roads usage, what ever eventually winds up costing everyone....even those who do not drive or use the roads. So, this gets to what is “fair”......and if you can figure that out you should be the PM because no one has done it yet.......and I’m thinking those who could do not want to.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> ...so why not ease the transition.


I'll throw the reverse back to you. Why should they? There's nothing I've seen yet that clearly illustrates they're inevitable. Just because some people desperately want them to happen, doesn't mean they will.

The last television we bought around 5 years ago the salesman assured us that 3D TV was the thing of the future. It's nearly impossible to find one today. Why? The market decided against them.



Rps said:


> That said, do EV users get a free pass......maybe but again a gas tax is not the answer...


Damn straight they do. Between taxpayer funded subsidies to lower costs for EV manufacturers, to taxpayer funded subsidies to lower the cost of purchasing an EV, to taxpayer funded electricity at roadside charging stations, to not paying gasoline road tax. How do you not see this?



Rps said:


> ...what they should be doing is making all roads toll roads.


Fine. I don't like toll roads but the second they do that I'd like all my gasoline prices reduced by the amount of tax that they _allegedly_ use to repair roads with, thankyouverymuch. What's that, 10, 15 cents/litre? More?

I'd also appreciate all my taxpayer monies used in the above subsidy schemes refunded to me, as well. If EV's are, in fact, the thing of the future, let them _earn_ that right in a free market. No more taxpayer funded subsidies, period.


----------



## Rps

FeXL, virtually every ar manufacturer is moving to EV propulsion.... but only time will tell. That said I do agree if we have toll roads then we should not be assessed a gas tax.


----------



## FeXL

Rps said:


> FeXL, virtually every ar manufacturer is moving to EV propulsion.... but only time will tell.


'Course they are! They all want to cash in on the _taxpayer funded subsidies_

It's free money! The car manufacturers aren't religious. They don't care where the money comes from. They just want to make money.

They're also riding the wave of hype & excitement that _taxpayer funded_ gov't marketing is providing. This sort of thing appeals to the virtue signallers. They're eating it up.

Take away all the _taxpayer funded subsidies_ & incentives, then we'll see how long EV's last. Thing is, I already know: Look what's happened to interest in renewable energy in countries/locations where subsidy funding has been pulled. Investment has dropped like a stone.

The free market decides, without the gov't picking winners or losers using _taxpayer funded subsidies_.


----------



## Macfury

They're not "moving to EV production". They're offering EV vehicles. Huge difference. And the sales on those EVs have been dismal overall.



Rps said:


> FeXL, virtually every ar manufacturer is moving to EV propulsion.... but only time will tell. That said I do agree if we have toll roads then we should not be assessed a gas tax.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> MacFury, I think whether you agree with it or not EVs are coming so why not ease the transition.


If EVs are coming then nothing can stop them. No easing of transition necessary. The earlier argument was: "EV's are not as popular as the government wants them to be, we need to pay for the transition."



Rps said:


> That said, do EV users get a free pass......maybe but again a gas tax is not the answer.....what they should be doing is making all roads toll roads.


EVs should have monitors placed inside them to electronically assess their road use using GPS. They can pay on that basis.


----------



## eMacMan

Toll roads are obscenely inefficient and/or intrusive where they bill via your license plate.


Again paste a $500 charge onto the electric vehicles annual registration fee. Let them pay their own way.


----------



## FeXL

Hackers Use Little Stickers To Trick Tesla Autopilot Into The Wrong Lane



> Elite hackers from China have found a way to trick a Tesla Model S into going into the wrong lane by strategically placing some simple stickers on the road.
> 
> Keen Labs, widely regarded as one of the most technically ingenious cybersecurity research groups in the world, developed two kinds of attack to mess with the Tesla autopilot’s lane-recognition tech.


Where do I sign up for one of these wunnerful smart vehicles? :love2:


----------



## FeXL

Watch As Tesla Model 3 Accelerates And Slams Into Car While On Autopilot



> Concerns about the safety of Tesla's "Autopilot" continue to swirl after a new video of a Model 3 crash surfaced this weekend on Twitter. The video, posted to Twitter on Saturday, shows a Model 3 with its autopilot engaged going up a relatively routine exit ramp at a speed that appears to just be about 25mph.
> 
> The ramp is congested and traffic is moving relatively normally, until the turn creates such an angle that the only thing visible in front of the Tesla is a black Subuaru Forester, which may or may not have blended into the color of the road ahead of the Tesla. That's when Tesla's Autopilot makes the bold, if inexplicable, decision to accelerate directly into the back of the Forester:
> 
> 1/ Here is a video of a Model 3 crashing into the back of a Subaru Forester while on Autopilot. The impact occurs about 20 seconds into the video. Not only does the Model 3 appear to accelerate into the crash, but the airbag didn't even deploy. $TSLA pic.twitter.com/XdpM7b0SFw
> — NetflixAndLamp (@NetflixAndLamp) April 6, 2019​
> "Not only does the Model 3 appear to accelerate into the crash, but the airbag didn't even deploy."


Frankly, I could care less how many of these idiots crash into each other. My concerns lie when they start crashing into me...


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Don’t be alarmed.


----------



## FeXL

Tesla Vehicle Bursts Into Flames, Burns For Hours In Monroeville



> A Tesla vehicle was on fire for hours Wednesday night in Monroeville.
> 
> It happened at Smeltz Auto Service on Monroeville Road.
> 
> Firefighters say the vehicle caught fire in February in a garage in Fox Chapel.
> 
> The vehicle was towed to the shop in Monroeville on Wednesday and somehow caught fire again.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Tesla Vehicle Bursts Into Flames, Burns For Hours In Monroeville


Surprise, surprise Lithium exposed to air catches fire.


----------



## Macfury

This is a built-in advantage for Teslas. No dents from the car next to you opening its doors because nobody will dare park next to you.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> This is a built-in advantage for Teslas. No dents from the car next to you opening its doors because nobody will dare park next to you.


OTOH If I owned one you can bet I would want a 50 foot square cement parking pad and no garage. I think parking one of these in an attached garage is deliberately inviting disaster. 

Of course if you can afford a Tesla, you can also afford to replace the garage and maybe your house when it decides to flame out.


----------



## eMacMan

More of the same:
https://driving.ca/tesla/model-s/au...taneously-combusts-in-shanghai-parking-garage
At least the Pinto had the decency to wait for a solid kick in the ass, before it would burst into flames




> Tesla is investigating an incident in Shanghai where one of its cars apparently burst into flames while parked – and NIO Inc., its electric-vehicle competitor in China, is now doing the same.
> 
> The video, taken by a closed-circuit camera and posted on Twitter by @ShanghaiJayin, shows a Tesla Model S parked alongside three other vehicles in an underground garage. Smoke initially comes out from under the front wheel wells, followed by what appears to be an explosion of flames from under the front of the car.


----------



## SINC

*Electric Car-Owners Shocked: New Study Confirms EVs Considerably Worse For Climate Than Diesel Cars*



> The Brussel Times reports that a new German study exposes how electric vehicles will hardly decrease CO2 emissions in Europe over the coming years, as the introduction of electric vehicles won't lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions from highway traffic.
> 
> According to the study directed by Christoph Buchal of the University of Cologne, published by the Ifo Institute in Munich last week, electric vehicles have "significantly higher CO2 emissions than diesel cars." That is due to the significant amount of energy used in the mining and processing of lithium, cobalt, and manganese, which are critical raw materials for the production of electric car batteries.
> 
> A battery pack for a Tesla Model 3 pollutes the climate with 11 to 15 tonnes of CO2. Each battery pack has a lifespan of approximately ten years and total mileage of 94,000, would mean 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometer (116 to 156 grams of CO2 per mile), Buchal said. Add to this the CO2 emissions of the electricity from powerplants that power such vehicles, and the actual Tesla emissions could be between 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometer (249 and 289 grams of CO2 per mile).


More at the link.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019...c-cars-considerably-worse-climate-diesel-cars


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> *Electric Car-Owners Shocked: New Study Confirms EVs Considerably Worse For Climate Than Diesel Cars*
> 
> More at the link.
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019...c-cars-considerably-worse-climate-diesel-cars


Someone with more time on their hands than do I could compare this study with the 2015 study from the Union of Concerned Scientists (USA):

*Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave*

For anyone here fluent in German, this is the 2019 study: (PDF)


----------



## Macfury

Do it yourself, lazy ass!



CubaMark said:


> Someone with more time on their hands than do I could compare this study with the 2015 study from the Union of Concerned Scientists (USA):
> 
> *Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave*
> 
> For anyone here fluent in German, this is the 2019 study: (PDF)


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> *Electric Car-Owners Shocked: New Study Confirms EVs Considerably Worse For Climate Than Diesel Cars*


Related:

Driving A Tesla Results In More CO2 Than A Mercedes Diesel Car, Study Finds



> A Tesla Model 3 is touted as a zero-emissions car by government regulators, but it actually results in more carbon dioxide than a comparable diesel-powered car, according to a recent study.
> 
> When the CO2 emissions from battery production is included, electric cars, like Teslas, are “in the best case, slightly higher than those of a diesel engine, and are otherwise much higher,” reads a release from the German think tank IFO.
> 
> “It’s better read as a warning that new technologies aren’t a climate-change panacea. Recall the false promises about corn and cellulosic ethanol,” The Wall Street Journal editorial board wrote of the study.


More:



> *Driving a Tesla Model 3 in Germany, for example, is responsible for 156 to 181 grams of CO2 per kilometer, compared to just 141 grams per kilometer for a diesel-powered Mercedes C220d — that includes emissions from producing diesel fuel.*


Bold mine.


----------



## jef

*Article above debunked...*

https://electrek.co/2019/04/22/study-electric-cars-dirtier-diesel-debunked/


----------



## Macfury

_Debunking_ would offer a set of other numbers, not merely claiming that everything the study says is wrong.



jef said:


> https://electrek.co/2019/04/22/study-electric-cars-dirtier-diesel-debunked/


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> _Debunking_ would offer a set of other numbers, not merely claiming that everything the study says is wrong.


From a link in jefs link:
https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1120327764543004672?s=19

Any of the quantitative points would be interesting go through, for or against whatever side is pre-determined to be correct.


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> From a link in jefs link:
> https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1120327764543004672?s=19
> 
> Any of the quantitative points would be interesting go through, for or against whatever side is pre-determined to be correct.


Hoekstra argument looks far better. Personally, I couldn't care less which of them produce more CO2, as long as they don't catch fire while parked.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> Hoekstra argument looks far better. Personally, I couldn't care less which of them produce more CO2, as long as they don't catch fire while parked.


There is a ton of information showing the EV's are much greener even when the electrical source is from the dirtiest coal. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9WDxmSN8&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR1n5KUg-cTr0WHDqzQpdgveuiyFlSdVcbq0gtpDx__1jjmI6DLLZusuzJQ[/ame]

And the number of EV fires is a tiny fraction compared with ICE car fires.Here is an article that covers many myths about EVs:

https://undecidedmf.com/episodes/2019/1/1/electric-cars-myths-vs-facts


----------



## FeXL

jef said:


> And the number of EV fires is a tiny fraction compared with ICE car fires.


The issue isn't the number of fires EV's have. The main issue is the fire restarting itself (often more than once) after the initial blaze has been extinguished & usually in the wrecker's yard long after the vehicle has been towed. 

When on our local volunteer fire department years ago we put out dozens of ICE vehicle fires. Never once did we have a restart.


----------



## FeXL

Musk keeps talking the talk



> After a six-month stretch of profitability, Tesla Inc.'s financial woes are back.
> 
> But that hasn't stopped CEO Elon Musk's claims that the electric car maker is smarter and better positioned than any of its established, century-old industry rivals. If anything, Musk's promises have become more audacious than ever.


----------



## eMacMan

*Teslas can be really sloooooooooooow*

https://www.seattlepi.com/cars/article/tesla-repair-wait-time-complaints-electric-car-13796037.php



> Neither vehicle was moving very fast, but the Tesla sustained front fender and suspension damage and wasn't drivable. So the Burlingame resident had it towed a few days later to Chilton Auto Body in San Carlos, the nearest Tesla-approved body shop and the preferred shop of his insurer, Allstate.
> 
> Nearly six months later, his Model S still hasn't been repaired.
> 
> The potentially long wait Tesla enthusiasts face to get their cars fixed after fender benders or worse damage is one of less publicized aspects of owning a Tesla.





> The Times quoted one man whose wife was still waiting for her damaged Model S to be repaired after four months:
> 
> "The general manager said it could take several months, that Tesla didn't seem to realize that their cars might get in accidents, and they had no parts inventory," he said. " Their parts are made to order, just like their cars."


----------



## SINC

*Daimler To Pull Smart Cars From Canada, U.S. Market*



> Just 345 Smart cars sold in Canada in 2018 after the car went fully electric
> 
> Demand for the Smart car in Canada and the U.S. declined after Daimler began selling only the electric model in 2018.
> 
> The tiny, two-person Smart cars once pitched as the next big thing in urban mobility will be discontinued in the United States and Canada at the end of the current model year, German automaker Daimler AG said on Monday.
> 
> Smart cars, with their unique styling and ability to fit in half a parking space, found an audience in densely populated U.S. and Canadian cities. But that audience was small and rapidly declining.
> 
> Canadian sales of Smart vehicles fell 6.3 percent to just 345 units in 2018 after the car went fully electric. U.S. Smart sales in 2018 were 1,276, a drop of 58 percent.
> 
> 
> The Smart brand's electric cars offered just 93 kilometres of driving range. Competing models such as the "mid-range" Tesla Model 3, with an estimated range of 523 kilometres, offered more range and more room for passengers and cargo.
> 
> Daimler ended sales of gasoline-fuelled Smart cars in 2017.
> 
> The cars were used by the Car2Go car-sharing service which pulled out of the Toronto market last year because of difficulties with parking. The car-sharing service now operates in other Canadian cities, including Vancouver and Calgary, under the name Share Now.
> 
> Small car sales to consumers have suffered because of relatively cheap gasoline and a preference for larger trucks and sport utility vehicles.
> 
> Daimler's Mercedes-Benz brand, in a statement, cited "a number of factors" for the decision to end Smart's run in the United States and Canada, "including a declining micro-car market in the U.S. and Canada, combined with the costs required to bring the European-designed Smart in line with North American regulations.
> 
> Smart cars: Are Canadians ready for tiny two-seaters?
> Car2Go to shut down in Toronto, blaming new city rules
> Mercedes plans to bring new, larger electric vehicles to the United States, starting with the launch of the EQC sport utility next year. Those vehicles will help Mercedes meet zero-emission vehicle quotas in California and other states.
> 
> Mercedes dealers will still offer parts and repairs for Smart cars, the company said.
> 
> Daimler has said it will enter into a joint venture with Zhejiang Geely Holding Group to build a new generation of Smart models in a purpose-built electric-car factory in China with global sales to begin in 2022.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/smart-cars-daimler-1.5116641


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> *Daimler To Pull Smart Cars From Canada, U.S. Market*
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/smart-cars-daimler-1.5116641


One for sale down the street. Owner claims 39 MPG which is absolutely pathetic. Not sure if that is MPG or MPIG. As a comparison our little Echo has a lifetime average of over 37MPG (US).

Only reason to buy one of these is limited parking space.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> One for sale down the street. Owner claims 39 MPG which is absolutely pathetic. Not sure if that is MPG or MPIG. As a comparison our little Echo has a lifetime average of over 37MPG (US).
> 
> Only reason to buy one of these is limited parking space.


I drove one of these non-electrics in downtown Toronto for a few miles. Feels bigger inside than it looks, but the engine was absolutely gutless.


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Now with third row seating.
> 
> Hey, want to see some spy pics of the "third row" that allows two "adults" to sit in back of a $TSLA Model Y? Are these two adults double-amputees, by any chance?$TSLAQ pic.twitter.com/CPCkOXI7l8​ — Mark B. Spiegel (@markbspiegel) April 30, 2019
> 
> But wait! There’s more! Tesla’s Firesale Of Its Solar Inventory Begins
> 
> And more yet! _Ugly turns uglier…_
> 
> Oh well. At least there’s SpaceX.


<snort>


----------



## FeXL

Tesla Slashes Car Prices For The Third Time In 3 Months



> Tesla is cutting prices yet again, a clear sign that "demand hell" has set in for the embattled automaker, and that the weather in Shortsville may continue to be 85 degrees and sunny heading into the summer where Morgan Stanley now sees the "bear case" scenario for the stock as low as $10 per share.
> 
> Perhaps Tesla has finally figured out that there is simply not enough demand for its cars at the current price point, or worse, that its business model isn’t sustainable, resulting in what has been a 2019 full of business model changes, price cuts and employee layoffs.


Huh. Another 6 or 8 quarters like this & they might actually become affordable. Still undesirable, but at least affordable... :lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Visualizing How Much Oil Is In An Electric Vehicle?



> When most people think about oil and natural gas, the first thing that comes to mind is the gas in the tank of their car. But, as Visual Capitalist's Nicholas LePan notes, there is actually much more to oil’s role, than meets the eye...
> 
> Oil, along with natural gas, has hundreds of different uses in a modern vehicle through petrochemicals.
> 
> Today’s infographic comes to us from American Fuel & Petrochemicals Manufacturers, and covers why oil is a critical material in making the EV revolution possible.


By all means, cut oil production. EV's will suffer just as much...


----------



## FeXL

I, For One, Welcome Our New Self Driving Overlords



> @Mtass7 – Policeman jumps out of the road to avoid getting hit by Tesla on autopilot.
> 
> The repatriation police have one of the most dangerous jobs in the Norwegian police. They must stand along Norwegian roads to measure speed, control belt and mobile use and stop those who break the law. Only protection is a yellow reflective vest.
> 
> Earlier in May, Christian Sørby from Modum learned that it is important to keep abreast of the cars he tries to stop. Because at the end of Verpsletta in Øvre Eiker there was a near accident with a Tesla on “autopilot”.
> 
> – I realized that neither the car nor the driver saw me, so I threw myself out of the way to get from it all without damage, explains Sørby to Bygdeposten .​


----------



## eMacMan

https://driving.ca/tesla/features/feature-story/motor-mouth-tesla-is-literally-going-up-in-flames

Lest we forget:
Lithium + air + heat = Spontaneous combustion



> On June 1, for instance, a Model S in Belgium caught fire while charging at a hotel Supercharger station. Firefighters, after a protracted battle, were able to extinguish the flames. OK, nothing new about a recharging incident or that battery fires can take some time to extinguish.
> 
> What happened next, however, was startling, at least to Yours Truly. After they were satisfied the initial inferno was sufficiently snuffed, the local fire department hoisted up the smouldering Model S and then submerged it in a container filled with water, the Antwerp authorities noting that Tesla batteries can continue to generate dangerous levels of heat for _days_ after the initial fire has been extinguished.





> The problem, as has been written many times, is the lithium-ion that powers virtually every current electrified vehicle. *More specifically, the issue is one of “thermal runaway,” a particularly nasty feedback loop that sees the fire feed on itself. *The only solution, it seems, is to use torrents of water to cool the core. And, as fire departments around the world are finding out, to ensure that the flames, once initially extinguished, don’t reignite.
> 
> The issues are manifold. One is that, although there is no evidence EVs are more prone to self-immolation, their fires are unquestionably more difficult to put out. More importantly, the techniques involved are completely different and require specific training, not only for firefighters but for all first responders. According to _Bloomberg Businessweek_, police responding to a recent Florida crash tried to douse the flames with a department-issue fire extinguisher, which apparently had absolutely no effect.


----------



## eMacMan

*Death by Keyless ignition*

Not really electric cars as such but worth passing along and not worth a new thread.

OK I admit I refuse to have anything to do with keyless ignitions. Modern vehicles tie throtle, brakes, transmission, cruise control and maybe even the steering to the onboard computer. If the computer locks up you have to hold down that start/stop button and pray it responds in time. No if ands or buts on the off chance the throttle lock wide open, my car has to have a way to instantly disable the ignition. Best bet is the good old key with accessory being positioned between on and off. 

Here's another reason I would probably have never even thought of:
https://www.cartalk.com/blogs/jim-motavalli/carbon-monoxide-deaths-blame-keyless-ignition



> Maybe I’m feeling my mortality these days, but I read not only the obituaries, but the small-type death notices, too. And in one such _New York Times_ posting last week I encountered the story of James Duane Livingston, a distinguished 88-year-old researcher and MIT professor who died at his home in Sarasota, Florida along with his 81-year-old wife, Dr. Sherry Penney (the former interim president of both SUNY Plattsburgh and the University of Massachusetts). The cause: carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning via “a new car with a keyless ignition.”


Hard to summarize with a quick quote so please take the time to read the entire article.


----------



## eMacMan

Interesting read though you CAGW types may want to close your eyes as it explodes more than a few myths about current driving and buying trends. Longish article but worth the read.

https://driving.ca/features/feature-story/motor-mouth-when-did-we-all-become-so-stupid



> The idiocy of which I speak — one seemingly specific to our times — is the inability to separate wishful thinking from actual fact. ... Ditto the Tesla fanatic who confuses predictions of 25 per cent battery-powered penetration by 2030 with the fact that EV sales have missed every projected milestone since Nissan introduced the Leaf back in 2010. Mistaking aspiration for actuality seems to have become a full-time profession for those claiming to have insight into the future.


----------



## CubaMark

*You guys gonna argue with Arnie? He's a Republican, you know....* :lmao:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXodSqMpuUQ[/ame]


----------



## Macfury

Schwarzenegger's a washed-up actor who will shill for anything.

I enjoyed watching the bloodless dishrags that walked into that dealership though. Do they have a pulse or are they just surviving on two or three beats per minute?


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

An idiot's an idiot, no matter what the political stripe.

That's merely one of the problems w/Progs: a complete & utter ideologically-based inability to criticize their own. Hence Freddie's criticism of Trump & complete silence on Justa Turnip. Likewise, yours on Trump & nothing on Jug Ears.



CubaMark said:


> You guys gonna argue with Arnie? He's a _Republican_, you know....


----------



## FeXL

Autonomous bus causes accident in Vienna.



> Authorities are investigating why a driverless bus struck a pedestrian in Vienna, an incident that resulted in minor injuries but stopped Austrian trials of the technology.
> 
> The Navya SAS vehicle was driving at 12 kilometers (7.5 miles) an hour on Thursday when it struck a 30-year-old woman in the knee, according to state broadcaster ORF.


----------



## Beej

FeXL said:


> Autonomous bus causes accident in Vienna.


Billions of dollars is being poured into technology that will allow machines to quickly identify people, and avoid hitting them.

Is it such a leap from avoiding to targeting? Probably just like typing a zero instead of a one. beejacon


----------



## FeXL

Beej said:


> Is it such a leap from avoiding to targeting? Probably just like typing a zero instead of a one. beejacon


One wonders...


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> The future’s so bright, they gotta wear shrouds;
> 
> Sales of electric and hybrid vehicles have dropped more than 50 per cent in Ontario over the past year, according to data provided by a non-profit advocacy group.
> 
> Electric Mobility Canada recently released a report on electric vehicle sales compiling data from Statistics Canada and IHS Markit, a market analysis firm.
> 
> During the first quarter of 2018, 2,633 electric vehicles were sold in Ontario. During the same time period this year, that number dropped to 1,219.
> 
> Electric Mobility Canada attributes at least part of this decline to the end of Ontario’s Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program (EHVIP) in July 2018.
> 
> The program offered drivers between $5,000 and $14,000 to buy new environmentally friendly vehicles from a range of auto manufacturers.​


More:



> *It’s as though they have to pay people to buy them. *


Bold mine.

Yeppers...


----------



## SINC

Man, I could never even think about an electric. No idea where I would stop to charge in many of the small communities I visit in AB and SK and cannot imagine spending hours to fuel up when I can gas up in under 10 minutes. Just a novelty in this part of the country, not a useful mode of transport. Wouldn't even know where to charge one up in Edmonton, never mind Peebles, SK or Donatville, AB.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Man, I could never even think about an electric. No idea where I would stop to charge in many of the small communities I visit in AB and SK and cannot imagine spending hours to fuel up* when I can gas up in under 10 minutes.* Just a novelty in this part of the country, not a useful mode of transport. Wouldn't even know where to charge one up in Edmonton, never mind Peebles, SK or Donatville, AB.


Used to be 5 minutes before Rachel and her idiotic pre-pay scam.


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Used to be 5 minutes before Rachel and her idiotic pre-pay scam.


Yeah, that too. Penalize the 99% to avoid the 1% who steal.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> Yeah, that too. Penalize the 99% to avoid the 1% who steal.



They could have solved it by making it illegal for an employee to be held financially responsible for a gas-and-dash. No incentive to chase = no deaths. End of issue and the oil companies would have to write off the loss, just like say, a Walmart has to write off shoplifting.


----------



## FeXL

Caution: Link to MotherCorpse inside.

Electric car catches fire and explodes in Île-Bizard garage



> Montreal firefighters are investigating after an electric car caught fire and exploded inside a residential garage in Île-Bizard on Friday.
> 
> The explosion launched the garage door clean off and sent it flying across the street.


----------



## FeXL

Wrong thread.


----------



## FeXL

Nothing like a good, ol' fashioned, sense of entitlement.

Tesla owner parks on stranger's lawn, steals electricity for 12 hours



> Here’s your public service announcement of the day: Don’t be like this guy. This guy, as reported by TV station WPBF and brought to our attention via Jalopnik, decided it was OK for him to plug his Tesla Model 3 into a random person’s electrical outlet on the outside of their home. Not only did he unashamedly steal someone’s electricity without asking, but he also decided that person’s lawn would be a good place to park. Not cool, dude.


Purdy damn sure if I found one of these parked anywhere on my property, or stealing electricity from me, it'd be missing a few parts by the time the owner returned. Say, a tire or 4...


----------



## FeXL

Autopilot failed to keep Tesla from sliding under semitruck at 68 mph, lawsuit claims



> A Tesla car, running on Autopilot, skidded 1,600 feet after sliding under a semitruck at 68 mph, shearing off its top and killing its driver, according to a lawyer who is suing the carmaker.
> 
> The crash in west Delray Beach happened four months ago when a tractor-trailer pulled out in front of a bright red Tesla Model 3 driven by 50-year-old Jeremy Banner.
> 
> The Autopilot system failed, according to a lawsuit Banner’s family filed Thursday in Palm Beach County. The system should have braked or swerved to avoid the semitruck, Trey Lytal, the family’s attorney, said at a news conference.


Russkies! I'm tellin' ya, it was hacked by Russkies!


----------



## FeXL

Couple via SDA.

I, For One, Welcome Our New Self Driving Overlords



> Another Tesla up in flame, this time in Russia.​


And,

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Based on claims made by DBS in 2018 from the Motor Vehicle Damage Office / Finance Norway, the Automotive Industry24 has calculated the damage frequency specifically for electric vehicles.
> 
> The tariffs are not including glass damage.
> 
> The figures show that electric cars are heavily over-represented in the injury statistics. The damage rate recorded on electric cars is 44 per cent higher than the fossil cars.
> 
> While fossil cars have a damage rate of 9.4 percent, electric cars have a full 13.5 percent. […]
> 
> There is little difference in the frequency of electric car brands between, with one exception: On average, in 2018, damage is recorded for every fifth Tesla on the road.​


Shocka...

Not really, if my powers of observation for Tesla drivers is any indication...

From the comments:



> 20% of all Tesla drivers are total douche’bags? Who cannot drive ? Or is their eco-auto at fault?
> I suspect BOTH are true … except the D’bag percentage. That’s way too low.


Nails it.

And,



> lOOks like we’re gonna need a brand new driver’s qualification designation.
> ‘E’ for electric vehicle only.
> from there we can apply a rational rate for, oh, say, insurance . . . . .
> (it’s the al capone tactic, hit the squishy little ecofreaks, right. in. the. subsidized. WALLET.)
> avg cost tesla, what, 70 grand?
> 20% cockup rate = 14 grand, plus costs of any OTHER vehicles damaged by the muskmobile.
> 
> soooooo lOOkie whut happens to the auto insurance rates for ‘E’ (for ‘E’nviroment lol !!!)
> tack on 14 friggin THOUSAND every year.


Precisely what came to my mind, too...


----------



## FeXL

Not a surprise to anyone paying attention.

Australian: New Report: Electric Cars Have ‘Higher CO2 Emissions’



> Electric vehicles in Australia’s eastern states are responsible for more carbon dioxide emissions than regular petrol vehicles, according to an expert report that warns Labor’s green cars policy would require up to $7 billion in upgrades and installation of recharging infrastructure across the nation.


----------



## FeXL

Those are some tires!

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars


----------



## FeXL

Some Tesla owners reportedly got locked out of their cars because the app was down



> Connected things are wonderful until they fail on you. Numerous Tesla owners allegedly experienced this today as they got locked out of the car because the app was apparently down for maintenance.
> 
> Several users took Twitter to pour out their agony. Some of them were logged out of the app and weren’t able to use it to unlock their cars.


It's damned difficult for me to feel any sympathy for these idiots...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Some Tesla owners reportedly got locked out of their cars because the app was down
> 
> 
> 
> It's damned difficult for me to feel any sympathy for these idiots...


People laughed at this product, then bought it as a car...

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/4/21/15376038/juicero-explained


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Some Tesla owners reportedly got locked out of their cars because the app was down
> 
> It's damned difficult for me to feel any sympathy for these idiots...


Letting the manufacturer control your door locks makes about as much sense as allowing them to control the brakes and throttle. What could possibly go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> Letting the manufacturer control your door locks makes about as much sense as allowing them to control the brakes and throttle. What could possibly go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...


Exactly!


----------



## CubaMark

You fellas haven't been on an airliner recently, I take it?


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> You fellas haven't been on an airliner recently, I take it?


Nope, I quit flying right after my heart attack back in 2000. Will never go up there again for the same reason you note.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Not in years.

Unlike, say, Prog hypocrites like yourself who preach the Globull Warming gospel and practice the exact opposite.



CubaMark said:


> You fellas haven't been on an airliner recently, I take it?


----------



## Macfury

I recently had to replace my accelerator pedal, which has en electronic actuator attached to a second electronic module governing fuel delivery. An expensive and flawed system that replaces a mechanical cable.


----------



## Macfury

More good news from Tesla!

https://www.businessinsider.com/tes...-picture-analyst-zero-dollar-valuation-2019-9



> *An analyst who thinks Tesla is worth $0 sees even more bad news in August's delivery numbers*
> 
> For Ed McCabe of TLF Capital, InsideEVs' estimates of August's numbers, showing another decline in Model 3 sales, proved that "organic demand is extremely weak," he said in a report Thursday.
> 
> "While there is no reasonable justification for a structurally unprofitable and horribly managed company to enjoy a $40 billion market cap, proponents of the stock tout its growth," he said. "That story is clearly over."
> 
> In its most recent quarterly update, Tesla reaffirmed guidance of 360,000 to 400,000 deliveries worldwide for the full year. Halfway through the year, total sales were at roughly 158,000, or about half of the low end of that range.
> 
> However, McCabe said that even if Tesla hits these goals, it likely wouldn't help the balance sheet.
> 
> Shares of Tesla have fallen 38% since their most recent high in December.Markets Insider
> "To reach the low-end of guidance Tesla needs to average 103K deliveries in the remaining two quarters of the year," he said. "To reach the high-end it needs to average 123K. Both would exceed Tesla's second quarter record. Neither will happen. It's also irrelevant. The company is structurally unprofitable. The more cars Tesla sells the more money it loses."
> 
> Now that there's more competition coming, like Porsche's new electric Taycan Turbo, things could get even worse, McCabe said.
> 
> "Remember that the staggering losses and cash burn have occurred while Tesla has had the electric vehicle market essentially to itself and Musk has promised imminent and sustainable profits and cash flow generation multiple times," he said.
> 
> "Back-to-back quarters of negative revenue growth, increasing losses, and cash burn will make plain to even the most ardent believers that Tesla is not a viable business."


But w-h-a-a-a--a-a-a! Musk is a visionary and shouldn't be held to account for financial failure.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> You fellas haven't been on an airliner recently, I take it?



Nope stopped flying in the early part of the millenium, as I cannot support the antics of Team Sexual Assault.


----------



## FeXL

One word: FUGLY...

Tesla pickup truck pushed back to November



> The Tesla pickup truck, described by Elon Musk as “the coolest car I’ve ever seen,” is now looking at a November reveal at the earliest, according to a tweet from the Tesla CEO. The science-fiction inspired electric pickup truck had been expected to arrive this summer, or October at the latest, based on previous statements made by the notoriously optimistic Musk.


And, as is everything regarding Tesla, it's behind schedule.

Quelle surprise...


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> FeXL I’ve commented on Rivian before....I think this is a company with the right vision for EVs.......that said $78,000 for a pickup truck and the drain on the grid will be an issue. Even with L2 and L3 chargers it takes tooooooo much time to “refill” the unit. Cost is always going to be the key and right now this unit is too expensive.


Here's some good news for Rivian. Big order from Amazon:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/busi...0190919-245d2oz3ordhtcklnqhhnj62gi-story.html


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Here's some good news for Rivian. Big order from Amazon:


That sound you just heard was Musk's head exploding...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> That sound you just heard was Musk's head exploding...


Yep! The deposits on that order would have saved Musk's company for a little while... he would just fail to deliver any of them!


----------



## SINC

Battery-powered Tesla cop car loses its charge during high-speed chase

https://edmontonsun.com/news/crime/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1569535064


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> Battery-powered Tesla cop car loses its charge during high-speed chase
> 
> https://edmontonsun.com/news/crime/...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1569535064


*You are being unfair in your criticism of electric vehicles.*

From the article:

_Geneva Bosques, a Fremont police department spokeswoman, said an officer from the previous shift neglected to recharge the Tesla, leaving it with a lower battery level than normal._​
And from electrek.co:

A Fremont police spokesperson confirmed that someone forgot to plug in and charge the vehicle after the previous shift:

_The Tesla wasn’t fully charged at the beginning of the shift. This unfortunately happens from time to time even in our vehicles that run on gas, if they aren’t refueled at the end of a shift._​
Further from Electrek:

*Electrek’s Take*

_I know Tesla detractors are already sharing these news report laughing, but it’s simply a user mistake._

I am sure that police officers forget to fill up their vehicles’ gas tanks all the time, and it also results in mishaps.

Charging an electric vehicle is actually a lot more convenient than going to the gas station, and they just need to get into the habit of plugging in after their shifts.

Electric vehicles, and especially Tesla vehicles, are going to be extremely popular with police departments.

They are a little expensive, and Fremont police ended up going with a used Model S, but the Model 3 is proving to be a great option.

The Bargersville, Indiana, police department broke down the economics and determined that *they are going to save about $20,000 per car with the Model 3*.​


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Electric vehicles, and especially Tesla vehicles, are going to be extremely popular with police departments.


Maybe in the police parade circa 2049 when they join the other antiques showing what police departments drove in the past. Tesla will have undergone bankruptcy long before then.

Would have been better if it had spontaneously combusted as a show of force to the criminals.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Wah.



CubaMark said:


> You are being unfair in your criticism of electric vehicles.


----------



## SINC

CubaMark said:


> *You are being unfair in your criticism of electric vehicles.*


I simply posted an article without comment, so who now is being unfair? Need a mirror?


----------



## Macfury

From the Fremont police department:



> Fremont Police said they are still in their 6 months of a pilot program testing the integration of the Tesla with the department and that they are keeping track of all the data.
> "We have no written policy regarding gas or charging, _but the general guideline is that it should at least be half full at the beginning of the shift, which this car was_," Bosques said.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/25/us/tesla-gas-fremont-trnd/index.html


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> CO₂ and air pollution damages from gasoline and electric cars
> 
> Electric cars are only much better than gasoline cars in a few places in the West
> 
> Electric cars are worse almost everywhere in the East.​


And, _and_, I'd question even that conclusion...


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> From the Fremont police department:
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/25/us/tesla-gas-fremont-trnd/index.html


From the same article:

_Bosques said last week's incident doesn't change the way the department feels about the performance of the car for patrol purposes._​


----------



## wonderings

How long does it take to fast charge a Tesla? Even at an hour that is an hour a cruiser is off the road, not even available in an emergency if they needed more vehicles. Until charge time is greatly improved I would rather emergency services use a vehicle that can have its tank topped up in 5 mins.


----------



## SINC

wonderings said:


> How long does it take to fast charge a Tesla? Even at an hour that is an hour a cruiser is off the road, not even available in an emergency if they needed more vehicles. Until charge time is greatly improved I would rather emergency services use a vehicle that can have its tank topped up in 5 mins.


Good point, makes perfect sense.


----------



## Macfury

Why would they say it changed their minds after they made a stupid decision that embarrassed them globally?



CubaMark said:


> From the same article:
> 
> _Bosques said last week's incident doesn't change the way the department feels about the performance of the car for patrol purposes._​


----------



## FeXL

11 Tons Of Water And "Special Container" Used To Extinguish Burning Tesla In Austria



> It was just days ago that we reported that the NHTSA was opening an inquiry into the use of Tesla's "Smart Summon" feature. Then, just hours ago we followed up by reporting that a petition had been filed with the NHTSA claiming that Tesla was using over the air software updates to cover up dangerous battery issues.
> 
> Today, we offer a stark reminder that just because the NHTSA has started to perk up its ears, doesn't mean that Teslas haven't stopped going up in flames all over the world. The most recent example comes from Austria, where *after a Tesla was involved in an accident and caught fire, firefighters had to use a special container to transport the remains of the vehicle and the battery.*


Links' bold.


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Unexpectedly;
> 
> A Tesla Model S police cruiser ran out of battery in the middle of a high-speed pursuit, the Fremont, California police department has confirmed.
> 
> Fremont officer Jesse Hartman radioed in that he was chasing down a “felony vehicle” but that his Model S cop car showed just six miles (10 km) of range before the battery would be empty, reports The Mercury News.
> 
> Hartman asked his dispatch to have another unit take over as pursuit lead after suggesting “I may lose it here in a second”; other gas-powered cars picked up the chase only to drop it shortly after due to the suspect’s driving getting way too reckless. *The Tesla, meanwhile, had to recharge in San Jose before heading back to the station.*​


Bold mine.

So, if you see a Tesla cop car behind you, all you need is about a quarter tank of gas & yer scott free...


----------



## FeXL

Old Tesla models spontaneously stop working due to worn-out memory chips that cost owners more than $1,800 to fix



> Some early Tesla models are spontaneously malfunctioning and could cost owners more than $1,800 to repair.
> 
> The issue stems from a worn-out flash memory chip embedded in the Multi-Media Controller board that activates the control screen and executes most functions.
> 
> This is happening in vehicles about four years old and older for Model X and S vehicles, which first came out in 2012.


----------



## FeXL

Tesla gets the go-ahead to build cars in China



> Tesla has been given the green light to start manufacturing its cars in China.
> 
> The electric carmaker, which is run by billionaire Elon Musk, is building a $2bn (£1.5bn) factory in the eastern city of Shanghai.
> 
> *Tesla plans to build at least 1,000 of its Model 3s each week in the Chinese factory*, which could be up and running within weeks.


Bold mine.

Based on his American production issues, yeah, good luck with that...


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Old Tesla models spontaneously stop working due to worn-out memory chips that cost owners more than $1,800 to fix


How can anyone be so stupid as to use a flash memory chip and not make it easily replaceable. Designed correctly this job should cost no mare than $200 and that includes the exorbitant labour rates charged by dealer service centers.

About on a par with LED headlamps that in order to replace, one has to remove and reinstall the front fender.


----------



## pm-r

> How can anyone be _*so stupid as to use a flash memory chip and not make it easily replaceable.*_



So, is that where some of Apple's design engineers ended up after they left Apple??? That sounds like a pretty similar situation to me compared to some of Apple's computer models.


- Patrick
======


----------



## eMacMan

OK you can add the Elon Musk retractable door handles to the list of really dumb ideas foisted on the 21st century driver.
https://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/news/death-in-fiery-wreck-blamed-on-teslas-hideaway-door-handles


> Tesla’s retractable door handles are being blamed for the death of a man in Florida, who was consumed by a fire in his car when a police officer responding to the incident couldn’t get the door open, _Automotive News_ reports.
> 
> According to the wrongful death lawsuit, 48-year-old anesthesiologist Omar Awan lost control of his leased Tesla in February on a south Florida parkway.
> 
> The vehicle slammed into a palm tree and burst into flames.
> When officers arrived, the door handles were retracted, and all they and bystanders could do was watch the car fill with smoke.
> 
> The cause of death was listed as smoke inhalation; Awan sustained no injuries from the crash.


----------



## FeXL

The Electric Car Fantasy



> Setting aside details like cost and features, the key claim is that widespread use of EVs will reduce global carbon-dioxide emissions—except that it won’t, at least not meaningfully. First, it bears noting that regardless of Washington’s creative accounting, the all-EV-option would entail at least a $2 trillion cost to America’s economy, just in higher car costs. Then, simple arithmetic shows that this option wouldn’t even eliminate 8 percent of world oil demand. And the impact on global carbon-dioxide emissions would be even smaller.
> 
> *Why? It takes energy—the equivalent of 80 to 300 barrels of oil—to fabricate a battery that can hold energy equal to one barrel. Thus, energy used to make batteries brings a carbon “debt” to EVs which, depending on where the factories are located, greatly diminishes, or even cancels out, emissions saved by not burning oil.*


Bold mine.

Curious that fact is never mentioned by the EV pushers...


----------



## FeXL

I, For One, Welcome Our New Self-Driving Overlords



> Your commute, their test track.
> 
> While the @NHTSAgov is busy doing nothing this Tesla driver almost hits a SCHOOL BUS while using a beta software.
> 
> He then recommends people to not try this.
> 
> Why is he an exception?? Stop the beta testing!!$TSLAQ pic.twitter.com/hre3p7iuxX
> 
> — Tess Laqué (@laque_tess) October 30, 2019​
> It isn’t the only close encounter. Full video here.


----------



## FeXL

USA Today: Accidents and Chemical Spills Plague Tesla Factory



> A recent report from USA Today outlines the working conditions at Elon Musk’s Tesla Gigafactory. In one instance, firefighters responding to a chemical spill were met with “resistance” by Tesla supervisors, who wouldn’t help account for evacuated employees.


More:



> The factory has also been the source of a number of 911 calls, in 2018 911 was contacted from the Gigafactory more than once a day on average for issues such as fights, suicide attempts, DUIs, thefts, and drug overdoses.


Sounds like a helluva place to work!!!


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Frozen Sparky Cars



> Gasoline, Joshua. You’re missing gasoline.


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> Unsafe at any speed – including “parked”.
> 
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has launched an investigation into the possibility that battery defects in Tesla vehicles may have caused the cars to burst into flames.
> 
> The investigation will involve certain battery management system software updates in Model S and Model X vehicles made between 2012 and 2019 in response to an “alarming number of car fires that have occurred worldwide,” according to a letter the agency sent to Al Prescott, Tesla’s deputy general counsel, on Oct. 24.
> 
> The alleged defects in question are “high-voltage battery fires that are not related to collision or impact damage to the battery pack,” according to the letter.​
> As in this case.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars


I'm sue good ol' CM will point to all of the parked gas-powered cars that blow up on the street, unmolested.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I'm sue good ol' CM will point to all of the parked gas-powered cars that blow up on the street, unmolested.


The Bigot will have about as much success with that topic as he has finding material for the Canucks Attacking Muslims thread...


----------



## Macfury

This will blow Tesla out of the stagnant water in which it festers:

https://www.theverge.com/transporta...-e-electric-suv-specs-price-la-auto-show-2019





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Beej

Macfury said:


> This will blow Tesla out of the stagnant water in which it festers:
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/transporta...-e-electric-suv-specs-price-la-auto-show-2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


That's okay, Tesla will be dominating the truck market with Cyber Truck, a vehicle straight from late 1990s 3D video games.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/22/cars/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup-truck/index.html

Watch the video to see how the bulletproof glass holds up.


----------



## CubaMark

Sure, Beej, talk about the glass... and not the guy swinging a sledgehammer at the doors and not leaving a scratch. The looks are... wild... and of course, meant to get people doing exactly what we're doing - talking about it. Dive into the specs and the price tag... if they can deliver, that's going to attract a pretty good following, I would think.

I have a family member who lives in his truck (figuratively). So even the top-end 500km model may not work for him. But then I got thinking about the fact that with a DC fast charge connection, he can stop for coffee and have a full tank in under 30 minutes. That's coffee, a muffin, and a bathroom visit. So not out of the question.


























The last time I checked for EV charging stations in NS, well, there was a LOT of empty space. Boy, has that changed:

*(Green icons are standard 120v plugs; Orange icons are DC fast-chargers)*


----------



## CubaMark

And the pricing - that ain't half bad!



> The base version of the truck will start at $39,900. That's only about $10,000 more than the price of a base model Ford F-150, which starts at about $30,000. But it would compete well with the cost of a nicely equipped F-150. An F-150 Lariat Super Cab, for instance, starts at about $44,000.


Base version give you 250km range. Top of the line: 500km range (for $69,000 USD).

And:










(no info / price on the ATV - no idea if it's planned for production, or just a prop for the CyberTruck announcement).


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> And the pricing - that ain't half bad!
> Base version give you 250km range. Top of the line: 500km range (for $69,000 USD).
> 
> And:
> 
> (no info / price on the ATV - no idea if it's planned for production, or just a prop for the CyberTruck announcement).



250Km is about 150 miles, considerably less once the batteries start to wear or the heater or A/C kicks in.


----------



## Macfury

Beej said:


> That's okay, Tesla will be dominating the truck market with Cyber Truck, a vehicle straight from late 1990s 3D video games.


That looks like garbage! I think I see one behind that yellow block.


----------



## Macfury

I don't know that the intended effect was to get people talking about it in derision...



CubaMark said:


> The looks are... wild... and of course, meant to get people doing exactly what we're doing - talking about it.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Don't you mean laughing our asses off?



CubaMark said:


> The looks are... wild... and of course, meant to get people doing exactly what we're doing - talking about it.


Yes, lets.

Can it haul a stack of 4x8 sheets of plywood?
Can it carry a cord of firewood?
A pallet of asphalt shingles?
Can it pull a 4 stall horse trailer all day?
Anywhere to put a quad, snowmobile, dirt or street bike?
What's the range with a 20' fifth wheel?
How do you mount a 10' camper?
Where do you put a 135 gallon slip tank, an air compressor and a barrel of new shovels to replace the worn out ones on 56' of cultivator?
This summer I drove from southern Alberta to Ohio in 36 hours with 3 people & 2 weeks worth of camping gear in the 'Burb. Due to a medical emergency I drove 900 miles back in one day. How many of these fugly things would that have taken & how long would it have taken them?

The above is just a short list of what _real_ people do with _real_ trucks. If all you are is a Prog Soy-Boy trying to replace your 1st gen Honda Ridgeline, then this overpriced, under-range POS just may be your cuppa...



CubaMark said:


> Dive into the specs and the price tag...


----------



## FeXL

And, while we're talking about Muskmobiles...

I, For One, Welcome Our New Self Driving Overlords



> “My husband believed Tesla could do no wrong.”
> 
> I am wondering whether Tesla ever helps pay for damage in faulty vehicle.
> 
> My husband was driving his Tesla Model 3 yesterday in the rain. He was in navigation mode and it downgraded to lane follow because of the weather. He was in the. HOV lane of the interstate, straight (but wet road) road, going the speed limit, no other cars near his. He went under a bridge, the car suddenly swerved left (no warning/beeping triggered). My husband was alert and had his hands on the wheel and tried to regain control, but it had already gone into a spin, did a 360 and hit a concrete wall. In their system, there was no evidence of collision. We only knew the exact time because the frunk became disengaged when it crumpled. The airbags were not deployed, which is surprising given it was a 65 mph crash.​


A Futuristic Blend Of Ugly And Useless



> Via @ShortingIsFun — Someone wake up @markbspiegel and @TESLAcharts, they’re going to have regretted missing the CringeTruck reveal.
> 
> “In his unusually short, 25-minute presentation, Musk didn’t say when the truck will head into production.”
> 
> But wait, there’s more!
> 
> THIS IS NOT A JOKE: Musk just asked his assistant to throw something at the Cybertruck's windows to prove they wouldn't break – and they broke. LOL LOL LOL. pic.twitter.com/k4jFYTXxZf
> 
> — Quoth the Raven (@QTRResearch) November 22, 2019
> 
> pic.twitter.com/J4jAcxfZbX
> 
> — Tiffanie 🤎 (@tiffthetechie) November 22, 2019​
> And, yes…. more.
> 
> Omg the ****ing back wheel is falling off https://t.co/7qWb4AzymP
> 
> — Quoth the Raven (@QTRResearch) November 22, 2019​


We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> A @tesla whistleblower discovered a "thermal runaway" risk
> 
> Tesla fired him, harassed him, and phoned in a fake shooting threat under his name. @elonmusk personally berated him by email.
> 
> And then several @tesla drivers were killed in vehicle fires. https://t.co/Yibl5nbl9N
> 
> — "Elon Says" (@ElonBachman) November 21, 2019​


Related:

Cars with high-tech emergency brakes still hit child-size dummies in 89% of street-crossing tests, a new study finds



> In tests by the roadside-assistance nonprofit AAA, automatic braking prevented a collision with an adult less than half of the time. For children, a collision was avoided just 11% of the time at 20 mph.
> 
> For its tests, AAA used four 2019-model cars: a Chevrolet Malibu, a Honda Accord, a Tesla Model 3, and a Toyota Camry. All the cars had their manufacturers' specific automatic-braking tech.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Hello, Bigot.
> 
> Don't you mean laughing our asses off?


Don't treat him too harshly--maybe he's never heard of towing or payloads.


----------



## Macfury

Look at the new Tesla feature--the pivoting rear wheel. There's something absolutely sweet about watching sycophants like CM trying to spin this disaster as a PR coup.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Don't treat him too harshly--maybe he's never heard of towing or payloads.


How the hell does he think the cartels move their drugs, guns & money? It sure as hell ain't in a Tesla "truck"!


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> How the hell does he think the cartels move their drugs, guns & money? It sure as hell ain't in a Tesla "truck"!


Remember this one?


----------



## FeXL

Hello. Bigot.

Further to this BS...

That's less than halfway across Montana, east to west, not counting a heater or A/C. Purdy sure that battery ain't gonna charge in 30 mins, either. All this for just under 100,000 Canuck bucks. And you still can't haul a sheet of plywood.

They got a winner, there... :lmao::lmao::lmao:



CubaMark said:


> Top of the line: 500km range (for $69,000 USD).


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Hello. Bigot.
> 
> Further to this BS...
> 
> That's less than halfway across Montana, east to west, not counting a heater or A/C. Purdy sure that battery ain't gonna charge in 30 mins, either. All this for just under 100,000 Canuck bucks. And you still can't haul a sheet of plywood.
> 
> They got a winner, there... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


Old CM would put his money where his mouth is and drop a down payment on that truck right now if it weren't for (_insert lame excuse_).


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Don't treat him too harshly--maybe he's never heard of towing or payloads.



Just to show how naive a man in his 70s can be, I was almost certain that was the entire reason for buying a truck. It sure as hell isn't comfort!


----------



## SINC

Can't argue that point. Only ever owned four trucks in my life and bought every one to haul stuff. Never used one for the comfort of the ride, that's why I always had a car.


----------



## Beej

CubaMark said:


> Sure, Beej, talk about the glass... and not the guy swinging a sledgehammer at the doors and not leaving a scratch. The looks are... wild... and of course, meant to get people doing exactly what we're doing - talking about it.


If I were in PR for Tesla, I may try to redirect attention to the part of the presentation that worked, try some spin about "getting people talking", and then repeat their promotional materials. But I'm not doing PR for them, and I chose to point out obvious problems, including one that is a repeat Tesla special: failure to deliver on promises.

Their normal process is to brag about pre-orders from Tesla fanboys, who will also run cover for them on various forums and news comment sections. Then they either miss deadlines, change prices, deliver something needing major fixes, or all three. A couple trashy "green tech" sites run cover for them (ie. paid fanboys).

But, it is so ugly that people are talking about it. That's a new tactic for them.


----------



## macintosh doctor

just bought the Tesla CyberTruck - $150 deposit… - will be ready in 2021 - at that time i can sell the reservation, buy it or cancel fully refundable - its like buying a condo and selling the title when its built, i can sell my spot for $2k lol

now i can sleep - knowing Greta is not angry any more LMAO!
it is actually a good deal.. bought the AWD version - dual motor. makes sense to me

Tesla priced it perfectly, plus it fits my lifestyle.. fit my family and my crap..

STOP saying its ugly.. have you seen Lexus, Kia and Hyndai or even Toyota - they are ugly, plastic junk.


----------



## eMacMan

Beej said:


> If I were in PR for Tesla, I may try to redirect attention to the part of the presentation that worked, try some spin about "getting people talking", and then repeat their promotional materials. But I'm not doing PR for them, and I chose to point out obvious problems, including one that is a repeat Tesla special: failure to deliver on promises.
> 
> Their normal process is to brag about pre-orders from Tesla fanboys, who will also run cover for them on various forums and news comment sections. Then they either miss deadlines, change prices, deliver something needing major fixes, or all three. A couple trashy "green tech" sites run cover for them (ie. paid fanboys).
> *
> But, it is so ugly that people are talking about it. That's a new tactic for them.*


Well that approach did work so well for the Pontiac Aztec!


----------



## macintosh doctor

eMacMan said:


> Well that approach did work so well for the Pontiac Aztec!


who cares - after seeing what Lexus, Kia, Hyundai , Toyota are putting out in the market 
the CyberTruck is a beauty not to mention no crappy plastic that will cost thousands to repair.


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> who cares - after seeing what Lexus, Kia, Hyundai , Toyota are putting out in the market
> the CyberTruck is a beauty not to mention no crappy plastic that will cost thousands to repair.


But you get a truck, nonetheless. My guess is that the Cybertruck is simply never delivered, much like the Tesla transport truck. These products are "launched" every time Tesla has to dodge some terrible financial news.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> 250Km is about 150 miles, considerably less once the batteries start to wear or the heater or A/C kicks in.


My bad - forgot the US is still using the antiquated imperial system.

That's 250 *miles* / 300 *miles* / 500 *miles* for each of the models, respectively.


----------



## Macfury

For each of the models that _don't actually exist_. My unbuilt car runs on water and goes 1000 kilometres. Or miles. Whatever you want it to do.



CubaMark said:


> My bad - forgot the US is still using the antiquated imperial system.
> 
> That's 250 *miles* / 300 *miles* / 500 *miles* for each of the models, respectively.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> My unbuilt car runs on water and goes 1000 kilometres. Or miles.


The Bigot's runs on unicorn farts & pixie dust & transports you back & forth in time...


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Can it haul a stack of 4x8 sheets of plywood?


The bed dimensions are reported as 6.5 x 6.5 square, no wheelwells to intrude on the bed space. So drop the tailgate, and you're good to go!

Note that the Ford F-150 comes with beds that are 5.5 / 6.5 / 8-feet long. The space between the intruding wheelwells is 50.6 inches, just room enough to lay plywood sheets flat, but still a reduction in the overall usable space.

*So - to answer your question, YES.*



FeXL said:


> Can it carry a cord of firewood?


A cord of firewood is 4ft x 4ft x 8ft, aka 128 cu ft of wood.

Tesla notes the bed holds 100 cu ft - I suspect that's with the tonneau closed (?). Note that an F-150 won't either, without uprights to hold the load above the bed side height.

There are modular additions planned for the bed (e.g., a camper version) so it's possible that that space may be expanded. If

*So, short answer: not without modification, just like an F-150*! 



FeXL said:


> A pallet of asphalt shingles?


The physical dimensions are there to fit a pallet in (width and depth). Of the shingles are secured, then sure - it can extend above the bed sides, with tonneau open.



FeXL said:


> Can it pull a 4 stall horse trailer all day?


Towing capacity is 7500 / 10,000 / 14,000 lbs. depending on model.

4-horse gooseneck trailers weigh 4,200-8,400 lbs (empty). Add 4x900=3600lbs for average horses, or 4x2000=8000lbs for Clydesdales, and you're looking at between 7800-12000lbs to 12000-16400lbs. 

*Certainly in the ballpark.*

As for "all day" - that depends on a lot of factors. 



FeXL said:


> Anywhere to put a quad, snowmobile, dirt or street bike?


So - you didn't see the info posted earlier, or watch the video, in which Tesla drove in their own ATV, up the ramp, into the bed, etc.? With the auto-suspension levelling that tips the truck backward for ease of loading?



FeXL said:


> What's the range with a 20' fifth wheel?


Well, here's a comment from the Tesla forums to that point:

*prl99 *| November 22, 2019
_For the majority of people, 10-14K towing capacity will be just fine. For those who want to be able to pull a second house, watch for the smaller semi truck. That's more like a Ford F-350/450. The Cybertruck is competing with the F-150 line, which it does quite nicely.

What I want to see Tesla demonstrate is towing an average camping trailer (5200 lbs + 1500 lbs cargo/water/etc) up hills/mountains, on the freeway, and on country roads and see how much of an impact it has on the mileage. That's all you should be towing with something like a F-150._​
Now, I know this is an anecdote and it has limited application, but earlier this summer I saw an F-150 hauling a 20-foot camping trailer up a slight grade, going up in flames from the hood. Most folks I know around here who have fifth wheels don't use a light pickup truck - they purchase an appropriately capable vehicle.



FeXL said:


> How do you mount a 10' camper?


No idea. Maybe you don't. Maybe that's not the market. Maybe the consumer can pick whichever vehicle is right for the usage their going for....



FeXL said:


> Where do you put a 135 gallon slip tank, an air compressor and a barrel of new shovels to replace the worn out ones on 56' of cultivator?


Well, the Cybertruck comes with an onboard air compressor (a tap off the systems built-in adaptive air suspension). As for the other bits, we'll see once it's released what it's real-world capabilities are. But you keep on building straw man scenarios for it to fail at, if that's your obsession. :rofl:



FeXL said:


> This summer I drove from southern Alberta to Ohio in 36 hours with 3 people & 2 weeks worth of camping gear in the 'Burb. Due to a medical emergency I drove 900 miles back in one day. How many of these fugly things would that have taken & how long would it have taken them?


Depending on where you were, that's about 3200km each way, about 2000 miles. 30 to 32 hours of driving. I imagine there might be a stop or two along the way. 900miles in a single day - that would be four fill-ups of the 250mile model, or two fill-ups of the 500mile model. 

There are DC fast chargers along the route all along southern Alberta, one in southern Saskatchewan, and many more all along the route south-east to Ohio. So if you planned your trip with munchie and pee breaks at those spots, you'd find minimal impact on your trip. Certainly manageable! And since you're probably going to stop once or twice along the way for an overnight stay, there are literally dozens of 120v charge points along the route to get you read for the road the next day.



FeXL said:


> The above is just a short list of what _real_ people do with _real_ trucks. If all you are is a Prog Soy-Boy trying to replace your 1st gen Honda Ridgeline, then this overpriced, under-range POS just may be your cuppa...


You just keep on rolling coal, there, grandpa. I'm sure you'll be happier in your self-induced state of permanent rage....


----------



## Macfury

So essentially, the "CYBERTRUCK" is less functional than a Ford-F-150 without making excuses for it. 

And what the hell are all these "munchie" and "pee" stops, Grandpa? When I'm driving, I never stop long enough to accommodate these slowpoke charging stations.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> But you get a truck, nonetheless. My guess is that the Cybertruck is simply never delivered, much like the Tesla transport truck. These products are "launched" every time Tesla has to dodge some terrible financial news.


problem is you are thinking like a canadian. The US market is 100x larger and the products are being delivered.. also in Canada they're trickling in.. 



Macfury said:


> So essentially, the "CYBERTRUCK" is less functional than a Ford-F-150 without making excuses for it.
> 
> And what the hell are all these "munchie" and "pee" stops, Grandpa? When I'm driving, I never stop long enough to accommodate these slowpoke charging stations.


Very true but if you travel with the female species and kids.. the stops are annoying and abundant ... during our stops my family wants to eat, use the facilities etc plus the wife always buys a drink which equals another stop... so our average stop equals at least 30mins .. 
most Tesla super chargers are just that super chargers.. 

now no said to get rid of your ICE - keep it for long distance travels etc 
but the cyber truck will do about 510 KMs per charge that essentially will meet our demands - it will take us to Quebec , Most of Ontario etc.. anything more you can make it a vacation 

as for the storage - i will be more than happy with rear capacity.. as long as it is as large as my VW Atlas I am good to go.


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> Very true but if you travel with the female species and kids.. the stops are annoying and abundant ... during our stops my family wants to eat, use the facilities etc plus the wife always buys a drink which equals another stop... so our average stop equals at least 30mins ..


Second time that happened, I'd roast 'em and eat 'em!


----------



## SINC

macintosh doctor said:


> Very true but if you travel with the female species and kids.. the stops are annoying and abundant ... during our stops my family wants to eat, use the facilities etc plus the wife always buys a drink which equals another stop... so our average stop equals at least 30mins ..


I solved that problem over four decades back. Bought a series of motorhomes. We only stop when I need to go. Other than that they can raid the fridge, use the bathroom, microwave or whatever.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> Second time that happened, I'd roast 'em and eat 'em!


are you advocating Cannibalism ? 




SINC said:


> I solved that problem over four decades back. Bought a series of motorhomes. We only stop when I need to go. Other than that they can raid the fridge, use the bathroom, microwave or whatever.


i would love an RV.. i have a client friend who owns a dealership and has offered that i drive one back from halifax to toronto for him .... one day i will take him up on the offer.


----------



## SINC

macintosh doctor said:


> i would love an RV.. i have a client friend who owns a dealership and has offered that i drive one back from halifax to toronto for him .... one day i will take him up on the offer.


If you plan on doing that, please go take a one day course on driving a bigger rig before you attempt such a trip.

If it is a B class, it is really just a van and you can drive that easily.

OTOH, if it is a C class or even bigger, an A class, I highly recommend taking the course.

There are many things that are very different from driving a passenger vehicle and frankly, the course should be mandatory.

I have seen so many people make costly mistakes that cause damage it isn't even funny.

One must be aware that most of your reverse actions will be made with only mirrors to assist you, no direct line of sight like in a car. Height too is critical at many small underpasses and while fuelling up as well. Passing another vehicle on the highway is very different and requires a learned way to do so safely that is totally different than a car.

I could go on and on, but for your own safety and that of your family, I highly recommend a course. It may save your life as being involved in a high-speed accident in an RV provides very little protection for occupants. The walls are only a few inches thick and most made of foam over an aluminum skeleton.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

<snort> I wanna see the suspension on this POS after you put a 3000 lb pallet of asphalt shingles in the bed....



CubaMark said:


> The physical dimensions are there to fit a pallet in (width and depth). Of the shingles are secured, then sure - it can extend above the bed sides, with tonneau open.


And the price increases significantly with each level...



CubaMark said:


> Towing capacity is 7500 / 10,000 / 14,000 lbs. depending on model.


Whaddya s'pose the range is with 5-7 tons behind this fugly thing?



CubaMark said:


> 4-horse gooseneck trailers weigh 4,200-8,400 lbs (empty). Add 4x900=3600lbs for average horses, or 4x2000=8000lbs for Clydesdales, and you're looking at between 7800-12000lbs to 12000-16400lbs.


Nope. One: Battery capacity.



CubaMark said:


> As for "all day" - that depends on a lot of factors.


It wasn't a Tesla ATV. It was a modified Yamaha.




CubaMark said:


> ...in which Tesla drove in their own ATV, up the ramp, into the bed, etc.?


That's why I noted only a 20' 5th wheel and a 4 horse trailer. Common loads around here with a 1/2 ton.

And, an F450? Seriously? Only people I see using those around here are into heavy construction, not pulling their holiday 5th wheel.

FWIW, I don't know what kind of special idiots post on the Te$la forums, but neither an F350 or an F450 is anything close to a "semi truck". The 350 is a 1 ton, the 450 is merely a heavier duty version, like a 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 ton.



CubaMark said:


> November 22, 2019
> _For the majority of people, 10-14K towing capacity will be just fine. For those who want to be able to pull a second house, watch for the smaller semi truck. That's more like a Ford F-350/450...._


_

I brook no issues with anecdotal stories, but with zero knowledge of what actually happened, it means nothing here.



CubaMark said:



Now, I know this is an anecdote and it has limited application, but earlier this summer I saw an F-150 hauling a 20-foot camping trailer up a slight grade, going up in flames from the hood.

Click to expand...

Then it's not really competing with the F150, is it...



CubaMark said:



No idea. Maybe you don't. Maybe that's not the market.

Click to expand...

Yeah! You can buy a Tesla truck specially designed to haul groceries and one more for a camper and one more for...



CubaMark said:



Maybe the consumer can pick whichever vehicle is right for the usage their going for....

Click to expand...

Ooooooo... An onboard compressor designed for suspensions. How dya s'pose that's gonna work on that 1/2" impact changing cultivator shovels or the 3/4" one taking off that rear flat on the tractor?



CubaMark said:



 Well, the Cybertruck comes with an onboard air compressor (a tap off the systems built-in adaptive air suspension).

Click to expand...

Don't need to wait. I'll tell ya right now: They will be limited. Just like his cars. And certainly not competitive against Ford, GM or Dodge.

And, and, that's assuming Musk doesn't go tits up before one of these things rolls off the assembly line!



CubaMark said:



As for the other bits, we'll see once it's released what it's real-world capabilities are.

Click to expand...

As I noted, these scenarios (and much more) are what is expected out of a real light duty pickup truck on a daily basis.



CubaMark said:



But you keep on building straw man scenarios for it to fail at...

Click to expand...

I filled up once, mid-day. Including a bathroom break, ~15 mins. Another 15 mins for fast-food supper & a bathroom break. No other stops. 13-1/2 hours, we averaged just under 70 mph. Best case, you'd have been 90 minutes behind me. With your A/C on full (as was mine), no way in hell. I'd have been leaving the motel for the balance of the trip home about the time you put your head on the pillow.



CubaMark said:



900miles in a single day - that would be four fill-ups of the 250mile model, or two fill-ups of the 500mile model.

Click to expand...

Do you know what the definition of manageable is? How much bull$h!t you're willing to tolerate to attain your goal. In case you haven't noticed, I have low tolerance for bull$h!t.



CubaMark said:



Certainly manageable!

Click to expand...

Rage? Once again, you don't have a clew. I ROTFLMFAO every time I read one of your posts here pushing EV's. The extent to which you'll go to be a good little Mother Gaia planet-saving virtue signaller is f'ing hilarious.



CubaMark said:



I'm sure you'll be happier in your self-induced state of permanent rage....

Click to expand...

_


----------



## FeXL

Oh, and while we're at it, just another reminder...

(article from 2017)

Child miners aged four living a hell on Earth so YOU can drive an electric car: Awful human cost in squalid Congo cobalt mine that Michael Gove didn’t consider in his ‘clean’ energy crusade



> Picking through a mountain of huge rocks with his tiny bare hands, the exhausted little boy makes a pitiful sight.
> 
> His name is Dorsen and he is one of an army of children, some just four years old, working in the vast polluted mines of the Democratic Republic of Congo, where toxic red dust burns their eyes, and they run the risk of skin disease and a deadly lung condition. Here, for a wage of just 8p a day, the children are made to check the rocks for the tell-tale chocolate-brown streaks of cobalt – the prized ingredient essential for the batteries that power electric cars.
> 
> And it’s feared that thousands more children could be about to be dragged into this hellish daily existence – after the historic pledge made by Britain to ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars from 2040 and switch to electric vehicles.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Dorsen, just eight, is one of 40,000 children working daily in the mines of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).* The terrible price they will pay for our clean air is ruined health and a likely early death.


Bold mine.

But hey, it's a job, right?! Nothing gets in the way of saving Gaia!


----------



## macintosh doctor

SINC said:


> If you plan on doing that, please go take a one day course on driving a bigger rig before you attempt such a trip.
> 
> If it is a B class, it is really just a van and you can drive that easily.
> 
> OTOH, if it is a C class or even bigger, an A class, I highly recommend taking the course.
> 
> There are many things that are very different from driving a passenger vehicle and frankly, the course should be mandatory.
> 
> I have seen so many people make costly mistakes that cause damage it isn't even funny.
> 
> One must be aware that most of your reverse actions will be made with only mirrors to assist you, no direct line of sight like in a car. Height too is critical at many small underpasses and while fuelling up as well. Passing another vehicle on the highway is very different and requires a learned way to do so safely that is totally different than a car.
> 
> I could go on and on, but for your own safety and that of your family, I highly recommend a course. It may save your life as being involved in a high-speed accident in an RV provides very little protection for occupants. The walls are only a few inches thick and most made of foam over an aluminum skeleton.


Trust me i know.. i drive 26 & 30FT trucks from uHaul once a year and trust me i know - it is scarier than anything on earth to reverse or maneuver them. I believe anything over 10 ft truck should offer mandatory driving course..


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> Trust me i know.. i drive 26 & 30FT trucks from uHaul once a year and trust me i know - it is scarier than anything on earth to reverse or maneuver them. I believe anything over 10 ft truck should offer mandatory driving course..


Good place to start:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## SINC

My 29' 8" class A is 11 ft high and 8' 4" wide with a 362 HP Ford Triton V-10 and when I connect my Suzuki Grand Vitara 4 x 4 behind it I am 46 ft long and weigh over 10 tons. I took the Alberta Motor Asociation RV two day course when I bought it, even though I had been driving C class rigs for six years before that. Glad I did, I learned a lot of little things that matter.


----------



## 18m2

I spent 12 years in my second career driving long haul.

RV and recreation trailer pullers are some of the most dangerous and scary people in the road. They want to treat their vehicle like it was their car or PU and seldom realize they gotta get the damn thing stopped.

I witnessed a road rage event on I5 in Northern California between a big motor home and a PU towing a 5th Wheel. They passed me going like a bat out of hell, nose to tail and right in front of me one went in the median and the other in the ditch. 2 people killed in the motor home ... no seat belts and 5 more injured including 3 kids. That scene will stick with me forever.


----------



## SINC

Yep, agree completely. Two pet peeves that happen all too often. 

One: A creeper at a side road of a four lane highway. Comes to a stop as I approach, then "creeps" trying to decide if he can beat me across two lanes to the meridian. Waits too long, then scoots our in front of me. Now I slow down to 70 kph to be able to stop if I have to every time I see a vehicle waiting.

Two: Cutting in front of me before an intersection and hitting the brakes with no idea how much time it takes me to stop. So far I have always been able to stop since I immediately hit the brakes and slow down while they are passing. Bonus, I pretend that they barely made it by finally stopping within a foot of their back bumper hoping they think it was a close call and smarten up. Only poor drivers do this, anyone who understands stopping distances never do this to me. Worst offenders are peole between 18 and 30 of any gender with tiny cars.


----------



## CubaMark

FeXL said:


> Oh, and while we're at it, just another reminder...
> 
> (article from 2017)
> 
> Child miners aged four living a hell on Earth so YOU can drive an electric car: Awful human cost in squalid Congo cobalt mine that Michael Gove didn’t consider in his ‘clean’ energy crusade
> 
> 
> 
> Bold mine.
> 
> But hey, it's a job, right?! Nothing gets in the way of saving Gaia!


One would think you're alright with this, as a paid-up member of the invisible hand of the market club! Capitalism has enslaved those children, not Elon Musk.

Don't express your faux outrage unless you're ready to give up any product that also makes use of cobalt, lithium, etc.

Otherwise, you're just making yourself a laughing stock....


----------



## Macfury

Maybe you can warn him about how it feels, having worn that mantle for so long....


CubaMark said:


> Otherwise, you're just making yourself a laughing stock....


----------



## Macfury

St. Elon is not a capitalist simply because he suckles so generously from the government teat?



CubaMark said:


> One would think you're alright with this, as a paid-up member of the invisible hand of the market club! Capitalism has enslaved those children, not Elon Musk.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

First off, fukc you. And the hat you're wearing & the horse you rode in on.

Second, it's just like a Prog to employ pretzel-shaped logic & blame someone else for their sins. Let me guess: Forks are the reason most people are overweight, correct?

Third, the hypocrite is pointing his finger at someone else? Bite me. How many flights have you made in the last, say, 10 years? How many ICE-powered vehicles do you own? When did you stop eating meat? How many children do you have? How many years since you stopped using both the electrical grid & carbon-based energy? Yeah, thought so...

Fourth, I'm willing to bet large there's more cobalt and/or lithium in a single EV battery by at least two orders of magnitude than everything I'll personally use in a lifetime.

Fifth, you're the one concerned about saving Gaia, not me. When your personal carbon footprint hits zero, you can talk. Until then, you'll find the real laughing stock in the mirror.



CubaMark said:


> One would think you're alright with this, as a paid-up member of the invisible hand of the market club! Capitalism has enslaved those children, not Elon Musk.
> 
> Don't express your faux outrage unless you're ready to give up any product that also makes use of cobalt, lithium, etc.
> 
> Otherwise, you're just making yourself a laughing stock....


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Hello, Bigot.
> 
> First off, fukc you. And the hat you're wearing & the horse you rode in on.
> 
> Second, it's just like a Prog to employ pretzel-shaped logic & blame someone else for their sins. Let me guess: Forks are the reason most people are overweight, correct?
> 
> Third, the hypocrite is pointing his finger at someone else? Bite me. How many flights have you made in the last, say, 10 years? How many ICE-powered vehicles do you own? When did you stop eating meat? How many children do you have? How many years since you stopped using both the electrical grid & carbon-based energy? Yeah, thought so...
> 
> Fourth, I'm willing to bet large there's more cobalt and/or lithium in a single EV battery by at least two orders of magnitude than everything I'll personally use in a lifetime.
> 
> Fifth, you're the one concerned about saving Gaia, not me. When your personal carbon footprint hits zero, you can talk. Until then, you'll find the real laughing stock in the mirror.



Seems to me that as long as his carbon footprint is less than the Great Goreacle or Suckzuki San, he is no doubt certifiably green.


----------



## CubaMark

Here's an article specifically on the towing capacity of the Cybertruck, for those who are interested in data, rather than their coal-burning butthurt feelings on the subject...

How much can the Tesla Cybertruck tow?

And FWIW, Tesla has about 200-thousand reservations for the vehicle so far (FOX News).


----------



## Macfury

Don't be a goof, CM. A truck that doesn't exist can tow unlimited tonnage. 



CubaMark said:


> Here's an article specifically on the towing capacity of the Cybertruck, for those who are interested in data, rather than their coal-burning butthurt feelings on the subject...
> 
> How much can the Tesla Cybertruck tow?
> 
> And FWIW, Tesla has about 200-thousand reservations for the vehicle so far (FOX News).


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Don't be a goof, CM. A truck that doesn't exist can tow unlimited tonnage.


It's freaking hilarious. Not only does he talk about an imaginary EV, he talks about imaginary coal-burning vehicles!


----------



## FeXL

Hello, Bigot.

Three things:
1. That merely tells me there are at least 200k virtue-signalling fools out there with more money than brains.
2. At a $150 per, that ain't gonna come close to covering the hit his stocks took when his "armored" glass demonstration failed miserably in public.
3. Musk should stick to the things he's good at. F'rinstance, subsidy farming...

Related:

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> From this statement, we know 2 things:
> 
> 1. Your time is worth $0/hr.
> 2. Your most recent lobotomy is still working.
> 
> — Brad Miller (@ClubFordRacer) November 25, 2019​


Oh, and this, from the comments:



> And on the related subject of corporate virtue signalling, have you seen the Petro Canada ad that says you can now drive your tax-payer subsidized buggy across Canada? Well, here’s the rest of that story…the part that wasn’t mentioned. *What a noble, selfless company, eh?*
> 
> “Bill Casey, Member of Parliament for Cumberland–Colchester, on behalf of the Honourable Amarjeet Sohi, Canada’s Minister of Natural Resources, today announced a $4.6-million investment for Petro-Canada, a Suncor business, for building 92 electric vehicle (EV) fast chargers in its coast-to-coast network.”
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/natural-re...-electric-vehicle-fast-charging-network0.html


Bold mine.

My tax $$$ at work. XX)



CubaMark said:


> And FWIW, Tesla has about 200-thousand reservations for the vehicle so far


----------



## Macfury

I like the non-existent transport truck better--the one that's going into production at the end of 2020. The one with a battery pack so heavy it displaces one third of the payload.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I like the non-existent transport truck better--the one that's going into production at the end of 2020. The one with a battery pack so heavy it displaces one third of the payload.


Imagine what that sucka could haul if it had an ICE?! :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

Further on public humiliations...

"Oh My F*cking God": Elon Musk’s Bizarre Cybertruck Unveiling Goes Horribly Wrong



> Elon Musk took to the stage on Thursday night to peddle his latest desperate cash grab pile of **** introduce the first Tesla truck model at yet another sycophant-sell-out unveiling "party". In our wildest dreams, we couldn't imagine a more ridiculous revealing of Tesla's new "Cybertruck" than what took place.
> 
> As the old saying goes, "a picture is worth a thousand words".
> 
> And here's that picture: a truck with two shattered windows that looks like it rolled out of a dumpster heap at a metal scrapyard, being offered for the _low low price_ of just $39,900.


:lmao::clap::lmao::clap::lmao::clap:


----------



## macintosh doctor

FeXL said:


> Further on public humiliations...
> 
> "Oh My F*cking God": Elon Musk’s Bizarre Cybertruck Unveiling Goes Horribly Wrong
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao::clap::lmao::clap::lmao::clap:


have you thrown a steel ball at an everyday product today in the market?
it would have gone through it .. that said the reason it failed, the sledge hammering of the body panel weakened the glass..


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> ...the reason it failed, the sledge hammering of the body panel weakened the glass..


Not buying that excuse! Also, the guy really softballed the Tesla smash with the sledge hammer.


----------



## FeXL

macintosh doctor said:


> have you thrown a steel ball at an everyday product today in the market?
> it would have gone through it .. that said the reason it failed, the sledge hammering of the body panel weakened the glass..


Nope. Never seen the need. Neither have I ever felt the need to make an ass of myself on the world stage by not confirming my armored glass will take a hit from a steel ball before I try it live, either.

Nor have I watched the vid but in one of the sets of comments I read about the vid the poster noted that it wasn't a real sledge hammer but a dead blow hammer. That in itself will soften the blow.

I'm also with MF: I ain't buying the excuse. First, it's s'pose to be armored glass. Period. Second, there is no, zero, solid connection between window glass & body panels. Window glass is held in a discrete frame that slides up & down inside the body panels. I can bang on the door panels of all our vehicles with a hammer all day and, as long as I don't dent the metal/plastic/fibreglass/whatever in a significant fashion, the non-armored glass within them will be just fine.

Don't buy into this crap, MD. You're too smart for that.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Second, there is no, zero, solid connection between window glass & body panels. Window glass is held in a discrete frame that slides up & down inside the body panels. I can bang on the door panels of all our vehicles with a hammer all day and, as long as I don't dent the metal/plastic/fibreglass/whatever in a significant fashion, the non-armored glass within them will be just fine.


Exactly. If the armoured panels were supposedly unaffected by the blow, then there should have been no contact with the window glass.


----------



## macintosh doctor

either way, the glass did not prevent me from placing my order. 
but what sold me was the AWD / 500+ kms per charge, interior space and rear cargo availability plus the indestructible panels.. also being stainless steel is a bonus... 

cant wait.. you are welcome to split hairs on the glass till the cows come home..... Both of you act as if a keynote for Steve Jobs and many others have gone perfectly...


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> cant wait.. you are welcome to split hairs on the glass till the cows come home..... Both of you act as if a keynote for Steve Jobs and many others have gone perfectly...


That's not splitting hairs. It's the failure of a major product feature. Again, you are talking about a truck that doesn't exist from a manufacturer with know quality control problems and the inability to deliver products on time and on spec.


----------



## FeXL

macintosh doctor said:


> Both of you act as if a keynote for Steve Jobs and many others have gone perfectly...


Couldn't tell you. Never watched one. Nor any other company reveal, ever.

That said, while I do have my preferred products & companies, I'm not so religious & fanatical about them that I can't deliver criticism when it's warranted. I love Apple computers: I'll never own a MacPail. I love Harley Davidson motorcycles: I'll never own an electric one. I love craft beer: I could give you a list of a dozen or more breweries I've personally been to (out of more than 200) that should simply close their doors.

Broken armored glass, feathering a body panel slam with a dead blow hammer and driving a Yamaha quad into the back of the...Thing while implying that the quad is Tesla are symptomatic of unresolved issues running rampant throughout his entire empire.


----------



## eMacMan

Since this thing no doubt has electric windows, and probability is that if you go into the drink the electrical would short out, leaving you unable to open the windows. That being the case you really would want to be able to break them! It's a feature not a bug on the windshield.

Remember this car has a feature that could steer you into a lake if it goes haywire.


----------



## FeXL

Further on the Thing.

Why Elon Musk’s Claim of 200,000 Cybertruck Preorders Probably Won’t Become 200,000 Sales



> Musk tweeted Sunday that Cybertruck has seen 200,000 preorders so far, with 146,000 of those orders coming on Friday or Saturday. But the figure could be deceptive since Tesla is requiring only a $100 refundable deposit for the new electric vehicle, a figure that is substantially less than the deposits required for other Tesla models.


More:



> Tesla critics and journalists on social media were quick to point out the potential for deception in Musk’s numbers, along with the fact that he has faced sanctions from the SEC for his use of Twitter to move the stock in his favor...


----------



## Macfury

Further, 200,000 orders won't become 200,000 trucks...


----------



## macintosh doctor

FeXL said:


> Couldn't tell you. Never watched one. Nor any other company reveal, ever.
> 
> That said, while I do have my preferred products & companies, I'm not so religious & fanatical about them that I can't deliver criticism when it's warranted. I love Apple computers: I'll never own a MacPail. I love Harley Davidson motorcycles: I'll never own an electric one. I love craft beer: I could give you a list of a dozen or more breweries I've personally been to (out of more than 200) that should simply close their doors.
> 
> Broken armored glass, feathering a body panel slam with a dead blow hammer and driving a Yamaha quad into the back of the...Thing while implying that the quad is Tesla are symptomatic of unresolved issues running rampant throughout his entire empire.


i hate any EV owner i have ever met.. especially my brother who owns a Tesla which when he visits he asks to plug in.. i respond with " i dont visit your house and ask for gas money "... the entire EV environment has created an entitled welfare group of owners, which the government is fully responsible ... seriously rich people milking the system for free charges, tax rebates its outrages and then Tesla the company receive so many breaks.... i won't like Tesla either, i can dish it out.. but in the Tesla is slowly delivering products... so this is my forte in the EV market as i already stated why. The numbers finally add up.. 



eMacMan said:


> Since this thing no doubt has electric windows, and probability is that if you go into the drink the electrical would short out, leaving you unable to open the windows. That being the case you really would want to be able to break them! It's a feature not a bug on the windshield.
> 
> Remember this car has a feature that could steer you into a lake if it goes haywire.


i did not get the fully autonomous option.. i am a driver not a passenger.. i will drive myself around, also i dont mind if the glass shatters either, as it might one day be the only way out..


----------



## eMacMan

Love this one!
The Joy of Tech comic... The Cybertruck Conundrum!


----------



## FeXL

Electric Vehicle Subsidies: On the Road to Nowhere



> Milton Friedman once remarked: “Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program.” He also observed that so-called infant industries protected by the government “never grow up.”


More:



> The Driving America Forward Act (H.R. 2256; S. 1094) would raise the sales cap to 600,000 with a slight decrease in the credit to $7,000 per vehicle beyond the first 200,000. The extension is supported by Toyota, Fiat Chrysler, BMW, Ford, Tesla, General Motors, Honda, Volkswagen, as well as environmental groups and electric utilities.
> 
> *“The credit is in fact working,” stated Genevieve Cullen of the Electric Drive Transportation Association. “It just needs a little more time.”*


Bold mine.

<cough>Bull$h!t<cough>...

Further:



> The rise, fall, and fall of electric vehicles (EVs) in the United States is well documented. *“No electric car since 1902, regardless of battery or drive train,” concluded one book, “had been able to compete effectively against its contemporary internal combustion counterpart.”* The electrics’ burden of history, 117 years old, hangs on by a federal tax credit and other aforementioned non-market policy preferences.


Bold mine.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Electric Vehicle Subsidies: On the Road to Nowhere


The error is to assume that it's an important policy goal to put people into EVs, instead of simply making sure that people have access to the vehicles of their choice at a price not unduly inflated by regulation.

It's like CM saying the electrical grid has a battery storage problem, when it actually has a weather-dependent energy problem. Resources are being misallocated to tackle non-issues.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Resources are being misallocated to tackle non-issues.


Heresy!!! :yikes:


----------



## FeXL

Tesla's Fatal Strategy



> On October 21, 2019, President Trump praised ongoing trade negotiations between the United States and China. Still, as negotiators work towards a deal that would alleviate tensions and reduce tariffs amongst the countries, the trade war persists. And that fact could spell disaster for Elon Musk’s Tesla -- a company banking hard on generous financial assistance from both the United States and Chinese governments.
> 
> Last year, Musk faced bad news: the United States would be scaling back its subsidies for electric vehicles, known as EV credits. Without the additional support from the federal government, Tesla had to search for a new revenue stream -- and the company found it within China’s regime. Musk, to preserve his business interests, has bet the farm on garnering tax incentives from the Chinese government. And given the ongoing trade war, it’s a risk that likely won’t work out in his favor.
> 
> Succeeding in penetrating the Chinese market as an American company is one of the major challenges that Elon Musk's Tesla-led company has taken up in order to capture more and more cake shares in the electrical sector. While it must be said that the Beijing administration's market remains the largest in the world, Tesla’s success is a tenuous proposition at best. *The looming continuation of the trade war could be fatal for the company, demonstrating once again the pitfalls of an overreliance on government subsidies.*


Bold mine.


----------



## Macfury

Elon said he was looking forward to the end of those subsidies!


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> Elon said he was looking forward to the end of those subsidies!


He ain't the only one... XX)


----------



## FeXL

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

A Futuristic Blend Of Ugly And Useless



> The road test.
> 
> Please note the horse trailer in the demonstration is _empty_.
> 
> Related, related,and also related.


Drive for an hour and a half, charge for an hour. With a _2500lb trailer_...

Well worth the 22 minute watch.


----------



## FeXL

Further on carbon-powered charging station lineups...

Tesla Owners Wait In Half-Mile-Long Line To Charge Their Cars On Black Friday



> Dozens of tree-hugging Californians who have convinced themselves that they are single-handedly saving the planet wound up spending a good portion of their Black Friday waiting on an extensive line to have their cars charged.
> 
> The Kettleman City Supercharger station, which boasts 40 charging stalls, was "overrun" on Black Friday, according to video and photos posted by the Daily Mail.


----------



## FeXL

Speaking of public health disaster potential...

Tesla on autopilot rear-ended Connecticut cop car as driver checked on dog: police



> A Tesla on autopilot rear-ended a Connecticut trooper’s vehicle early Saturday as the driver was checking on his dog in the back seat, state police said.
> 
> Police said they had responded to a disabled vehicle that was stopped in the middle of Interstate 95. While waiting for a tow, the self-driving Tesla came down the road.
> 
> After striking the trooper's vehicle, the driver in the Tesla then rear-ended the disabled vehicle before stopping.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Speaking of public health disaster potential...
> 
> Tesla on autopilot rear-ended Connecticut cop car as driver checked on dog: police


Thee hasn't been a single incident with the Tesla pick-up truck.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> Thee hasn't been a single incident with the Tesla pick-up truck.


Yet!


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Thee hasn't been a single incident with the Tesla pick-up truck.


Well, maybe not in the _real world_, but some folks are pretty sure of what's going to happen once it's released....

[ame]https://youtu.be/oZhwktIya0M?t=190[/ame]


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars

I jes' luvs me some excellent quality control & prime customer service...


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars
> 
> I jes' luvs me some excellent quality control & prime customer service...



Thankfully there is an easy solution.


----------



## FeXL

Curious, that...

Sales of electric vehicles plummet in Ontario after rebate cancellation



> Sales of electric vehicles in Ontario have plummeted since the Progressive Conservative government cancelled a rebate last year, hampering progress toward a national target.
> 
> In the first six months of this year, sales in Ontario were down more than 55 per cent from the same period in 2018, according to data from Electric Mobility Canada. In the second quarter of this year 2,933 electric vehicles were sold in the province, down from 7,110 in the same period last year.
> 
> Ontario is the only province not seeing increases in sales, year over year.
> 
> Quebec and British Columbia, which have their own provincial rebates, have long been leading in total sales. Ontario's figures had been increasing on par with theirs until the province's financial incentive disappeared.
> 
> Under the previous Liberal government, *Ontario had offered up to $14,000 back for buyers of electric vehicles*, but Premier Doug Ford's government cancelled it after winning the June 2018 election, saying it was going to people who could already afford expensive cars.


Bold mine.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> it was going to people who could already afford expensive cars...


Absolutely. These are vanity buys for those with money to burn.


----------



## SINC

Well now, here is an interesting article on Motor Junkie.

*20 Reasons Not To Buy Tesla Cars*

https://motor-junkie.com/20-reasons...YvqEdBeIbvoJRwRgSxkpwpM96m-kz6fjPlFCNauCwxn1U


----------



## FeXL

SINC said:


> 20 Reasons Not To Buy Tesla Cars


H8ter!!! tptptptp


----------



## FeXL

Tesla, Apple among firms accused of aiding child labor in Congo



> Five of the world’s largest tech companies have been accused of being complicit in the death of children in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) forced to mine cobalt, a metal used to make telephones and computers, in a landmark lawsuit.
> 
> The legal complaint on behalf of 14 families from Congo was filed on Sunday by International Rights Advocates, a U.S.-based human rights non-profit, against Tesla Inc, Apple Inc, Alphabet Inc, Microsoft Corp and Dell Technologies Inc..


----------



## eMacMan

Something I tend to go on about is the failure of the Cataclysmic Anthropogenic Global Warming alarmists, to consider the entire equation.

Case in point. A while back I stumbled on a little gem about the Nissan Leaf. It's 30KWH battery gives it a *maximum range* of 100 miles and has a life of *up to* 100,000 miles.

So let's do the math. 30KWH costs about $3 and likely to increase dramatically should the elite succeed in shoving them down our throats. That's 3¢/mile. Now I expect my vehicles to last at least 200,000 miles so add in $8900USD/100,000 miles. That's 12¢CDN/mile for a total of 15¢/mile.

Nissan Leaf costs 15¢/Mile for 'fuel'. My little Toyota 11.5¢/Mile for gasoline. Make it 13¢/Mile if you include oil changes.

*So my question for all the greenie weenies is: Paying an extra 2¢/mile to drive to drive that electric car how many miles will it take you to break even? 

BTW I notice that Seattle and some other areas that have a lot of Goreshippers are proposing a per mile pothole levy on electric cars to make up for the loss in gasoline tax revenues. *


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> BTW I notice that Seattle and some other areas that have a lot of Goreshippers are proposing a per mile pothole levy on electric cars to make up for the loss in gasoline tax revenues. [/B]


This was always the plan--as was making people dependent on government utilities for "gas." You can bet that electric chargers for cars will soon be separately metered so that the municipality can collect extra revenue from EVs.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> This was always the plan--as was making people dependent on government utilities for "gas." *You can bet that electric chargers for cars will soon be separately metered so that the municipality can collect extra revenue from EVs.*


May be so. Our community is putting up new power poles. Note only are they much taller than needed, but they are making 660V 3phase available to every home. Only possible reason for 3 phase is rapid charging. Guessing the cost for a new three phase panel plus the high current charger would easily exceed $5000 and as you say would probably be metered separately.

Guessing the height is for 5G, I would like to see that thoroughly tested in Ottawa and DC before it is deployed elsewhere.


----------



## FeXL

I, For One, Welcome Our New Self-Driving Overlords



> The number of $TSLA unintended acceleration events is shocking. Whether it’s a deficiency of the control system or a deficiency of the driver interface, it needs to be addressed. https://t.co/akwvgEx9gW
> 
> — CoverDrive (@CoverDrive12) December 25, 2019​


----------



## FeXL

Police Wasted £1.5 Million on Electric Cars That Can’t Chase Criminals



> Police forces in the United Kingdom have squandered over a million pounds on electric cars that are incapable of chasing criminals or performing emergency services because the eco-friendly vehicles are too slow and take too long to charge.
> 
> A freedom of information request found that police in the UK have spent £1.49 million on 448 green cars and vans. However, the actual cost of the eco-police fleets is likely much higher as many districts have not reported their purchases.
> 
> The official police reports admit that the battery-powered cars are incapable of fulfilling police duties such as chasing criminals or handling emergency response situations and often run out of power before a shift ends.


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> LMAO……seems as efficient and productive as most things in CA. pic.twitter.com/F8qG6f57hh
> 
> — All American 🇺🇸⭐🇺🇸 (@Redtowel4) December 24, 2019​
> More! _“Literally A Brick”: *Tesla Seizes Up Two Days Before Christmas In Holiday Horror Story* (h/t Ray)_


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

Tesla’s UX is too far ahead to make sense (now)



> Yesterday and today I finally had a chance of testing a Tesla Model 3. More than the driving experience, I was interested in the UX relatively to the *15 inches touchscreen* that dominates the dashboard. FIFTEEN INCHES TOUCHSCREEN, let that sink for a moment.
> It’s 2 inches bigger than the laptop I’m using right now, 2.1 inches bigger than an iPad Pro. If you have one, take it and try imagine having that, but slightly bigger, next to the steering wheel.
> Seems insane, right? Well, it kinda is (so, better not even mention the 17 inches on the Model X).


Links' bold.

My FIL had an '07 Avalanche. I hated driving it. Absolutely impossible to run the near-to-the-floor AC/heater controls without taking your eyes off the road for significant amounts of time. Fiddly little controls for fan speed & direction of airflow. Even fiddlier vertical twin dials for left/right air temperature. You're far better off to roll them either all the way up or all the way down than to take 5 seconds and try to find some middle ground.

I don't know what engineering genius put this together but, as far as a safe user interface is concerned, that one fails on all marks. Our '99 'Burb is far superior, with the controls located up high & positive detents on all the knobs.

And now, 15" & 17" touchscreens? I hope the cost of their insurance reflects the associated risk.


----------



## eMacMan

FeXL said:


> Tesla’s UX is too far ahead to make sense (now)
> 
> 
> 
> Links' bold.
> 
> My FIL had an '07 Avalanche. I hated driving it. Absolutely impossible to run the near-to-the-floor AC/heater controls without taking your eyes off the road for significant amounts of time. Fiddly little controls for fan speed & direction of airflow. Even fiddlier vertical twin dials for left/right air temperature. You're far better off to roll them either all the way up or all the way down than to take 5 seconds and try to find some middle ground.
> 
> I don't know what engineering genius put this together but, as far as a safe user interface is concerned, that one fails on all marks. Our '99 'Burb is far superior, with the controls located up high & positive detents on all the knobs.
> 
> And now, 15" & 17" touchscreens? I hope the cost of their insurance reflects the associated risk.



Touch screens in the auto cockpit, regardless of size, are beyond stupid. They should be illegal!


----------



## FeXL

*~Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

My tax $$$ at work.

Trudeau government approves hundreds of electric vehicle charging stations, audit shows operational stations barely used



> The Trudeau government will foot half the bill for 420 electric vehicle charging stations from coast-to-coast at a cost of $21 million, according to Natural Resources Canada.
> 
> The stations are paid for through a $182 million Natural Resources Canada program covering 50 percent of the cost of hydrogen fuel cell stations, natural gas vehicle refuelling portals and EV charging stations.
> 
> To date the department has subsidized 102 of the latter EV chargers–up to $50,000 each–that a recent audit determined are barely used.
> 
> Of the half-dozen stations Natural Resources Canada was able to glean 365 days of usage data–two in Peel Region (Ontario) and four in Quebec–the EV chargers were engaged an average of 2.6 times-per-day.


But there are no subsidies!!!


----------



## eMacMan

If you're wondering if Tesla is really on the ropes fiscally, this article may give you a clue:
https://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/...billed-thousands-for-upgrades-they-didnt-want
Nearly $13,000 Canadian for an upgrade you don't want and Elon refusing to refund the bogus charge. That's all you need to know!


> A Tesla owner says he was dumbfounded after checking his credit card bill to find US$9,700 in charges from Tesla for services he didn’t authorize payment for.
> 
> Jon McLaughlin was surprised when his wife called him and said some of the self-driving features on their Tesla Model 3 were now available to use, allegedly despite neither Jon or his wife authorizing or even attempting to purchase the software upgrades.
> ...
> When McLaughlin contacted Tesla customer service, he was told the products were non-refundable, despite him allegedly not making the purchase in the first place.


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> If you're wondering if Tesla is really on the ropes fiscally, this article may give you a clue:
> https://driving.ca/tesla/auto-news/...billed-thousands-for-upgrades-they-didnt-want
> Nearly $13,000 Canadian for an upgrade you don't want and Elon refusing to refund the bogus charge. That's all you need to know!


Your bias is showing, again.


Musk has already responded that this is an error, and will be addressed.


"on the ropes"? *Huh.*
_Tesla Is Now Worth More Than Ford and GM—Combined_


----------



## Macfury

Pay no attention to that Musk behind the curtain--it has already been addressed!



CubaMark said:


> ...this is an error, and will be addressed.


You do understand the difference between a stock market bubble and profitability don't you? Tesla is definitely a car company on the ropes.



CubaMark said:


> [*]"on the ropes"? *Huh.*
> _Tesla Is Now Worth More Than Ford and GM—Combined_
> [/LIST]


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> Your bias is showing, again.
> 
> 
> Musk has already responded that this is an error, and will be addressed.
> "on the ropes"? *Huh.*
> _Tesla Is Now Worth More Than Ford and GM—Combined_


Clearly someone went to a great deal of effort to create the bogus charges. That with the reluctance to repay speaks volumes.

As to profitability, stock prices seldom reflect what is really happening. I recall a certain super tech stock (Nortel) that was flying high not too long before it crashed and burned.


----------



## FeXL

Hello, bigot.

I'm sorry. Whose bias is showing?

Where would Tesla be without the 5 billion in taxpayer-funded $$$ Musk garnered from subsidy farming? Or are you still in denial about that, as well?

And, _and_, how about this little nugget that seems to have escaped your notice on your personal "Everything about Tesla is great!!!" newsfeed:

Tesla under investigation over claims 500,000 of their cars can suddenly accelerate on their own and have caused 110 crashes in six years



> Tesla is under investigation after 127 complaints were sent to the National Highway Safety Administration (NHTSA) claiming certain models experienced 'sudden unintended acceleration'.
> 
> The vehicles in question include the Tesla Model 3, Model S and Model X that were made and sold from 2013 through to 2019 -amounting to nearly 500,000 cars.
> 
> The flaw is said to have caused 110 crashes and 52 injuries, with many drivers stating the incident occurred when they attempted to park in a garage or at a curb.
> 
> Others claimed the sudden acceleration happened while in traffic or when using driver assistance systems.





CubaMark said:


> Your bias is showing, again.


----------



## FeXL

*~v Becauth ith's 2015!!!*

I don't buy a lot from Crappy Tire, but it just became a lot less.

Trudeau gives Canadian Tire $2.7 million for electric car charging stations



> Canadian Tire has received a $2.7 million subsidy from the Trudeau government to install electric car charging stations across Canada, according to Blacklock’s Reporter.
> 
> As well as this, the government of British Columbia has also approved a grant of $275,000.
> 
> The nearly $3 million colossal subsidy will be used to build 54 electric charging stations. This subsidy seems to prove that the federal government is willing to spend a great deal on environmental projects.


----------



## FeXL

Tesla Battery Reignites, Driver Killed, After Vehicle Crashed And "Burst Into Flames" During Weekend Accident



> _Update 1/20/2020_: According to the Pleasanton Police Department's Facebook page on Sunday, *after being cleared from the scene, the 2018 Tesla Model S battery reignited, prompting additional fire crews to be sent to contain the fire.*
> 
> --
> 
> No sooner do we report that the NHTSA is considering a petition to investigate 500,000 Teslas for unintended acceleration, than another Tesla driver winds up dead.
> 
> Police are in the middle of investigating what is being called a "single vehicle crash" involving a Tesla that "crashed and burst into flames" in Pleasanton, California.
> 
> The driver of the vehicle was killed, according to ABC 7. His identity has not yet been released.
> 
> The crash was reported on Saturday night at about 6pm local time at the intersection of West Las Positas Boulevard and Hacienda Drive.


Bold mine.


----------



## FeXL

This'll be the end of The General. Especially the "autonomous" part...

GM will spend $2.2 billion to build electric and autonomous vehicles at Detroit plant



> Last week, GM-subsidiary Cruise unveiled the Origin, its first self-driving car without a steering wheel or pedals. At the time, the company’s CEO Dan Ammann promised to reveal production details in the days to come. Well, today’s the day, with GM announcing plans to spend $2.2 billion to retrofit its Detroit-Hamtramck plant for the production of autonomous and electric vehicles.


----------



## FeXL

Tesla driver who put the EV on autopilot says its sensors IGNORED truck stopped in front of it and rammed into the back of the semi



> The unknown model is seen in the footage driving in Milpitas, California, which is in the San Francisco Bay area, on January 13
> The electric vehicle is moving in heavy, 'stop-and-go' traffic behind a car carrier truck for several minutes
> The driver writes in a summary posted online with the video that the vehicle is only going about 10 miles-per-hour and that it was set to three car lengths
> The driver writes that the collision resulted after the 'cameras, radar, and sensors' the auto pilot relies on 'suddenly ignored the giant semi'
> A report was made to the EV maker, the driver said. Drivers have reported several similar problems with auto pilot, which has been blamed for three fatal crashes


----------



## FeXL

MF! They're bringing it back!!!

GM revives Hummer as all-electric vehicle



> It’s official: General Motors on Thursday confirmed its plan to reboot the Hummer — a military-style behemoth once seen as a symbol of American excess — in an all-electric version.
> 
> GM will unveil the revamped GMC Hummer EV in an ad during Sunday’s Super Bowl game, reviving the a vehichle launched in the 1990s but phased out after the 2008 financial crisis.


Damn. The original as an electric would have been _half_ cool. This fugly thing?


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> MF! They're bringing it back!!!
> 
> GM revives Hummer as all-electric vehicle
> 
> 
> 
> Damn. The original as an electric would have been _half_ cool. This fugly thing?


It's not as "aggressive" as I remember!


----------



## FeXL

These researchers tricked a car's Autopilot using only a projector



> A team of researchers in Israel have successfully tricked Tesla’s and Mobileye’s driver assistance features into stopping for pedestrians that weren’t there, and driving at speed limits posted on signs that don’t exist, exposing a possible flaw in modern automotive tech that could prove dangerous if exploited.


More:



> Nassi also projected a not-real speed limit sign onto a tree; the fake sign was recognized by the driver assist tech, and so caused the car to speed up. In the test, a speed limit of 125 miles per hour was projected onto a billboard, too, for just 125 milliseconds — that was, apparently, enough time for the vehicle to recognize and react to it by speeding up.


----------



## FeXL

We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars



> The only reason why some people can use electric cars, is because everyone else doesn’t. If all car and truck drivers were forced to use electric vehicles, the problem of recharging them would become completely unmanageable.​
> Thread.
> 
> Related: The Removal Of Tesla’s Dutch Treat
> 
> Tesla sales typically follow a pattern that exudes “stuffing” at the end of any quarter, and there was clearly some pull-ahead in sales into December in Holland because of the tax law change.
> 
> But, no statistical or seasonal anomalies could have possibly prepared me for this morning’s BOVAG figure for Tesla sales in January in the Netherlands.
> 
> Tesla sold 165 cars in the Netherlands in January.
> 
> That’s right, and that’s a 99% sequential decrease in sales. That figure was composed of 153 Model 3s, 5 Model S and 8 Model X. Seriously. For an entire month. To be fair that is a 150% increase over January 2019’s sales figure of 63 units, but, again, Tesla’s December 2020 sales in the Netherlands are, by my estimation, going to be massively lower than December 2019’s.​


----------



## FeXL

I still have no, zero, interest in EV's.

That said, at least this one doesn't look like the west end of an eastbound skunk...

Nikola Badger


----------



## FeXL

Well, The Bigot will be relieved this isn't another link to yet one more burned up Te$la...

Porsche Taycan 'Explodes' In Florida Garage Causing "Significant Damage"



> Tesla has had its fair share of fires with federal investigations looking into whether there is a potentially widespread and dangerous issue with the batteries in their vehicles. Now it appears the NHTSA could launch a probe into why a Porsche Taycan electric car erupted into flames in a South Florida garage.
> 
> Electrek quotes a Twitter handle that describes the incident as an "explosion."
> 
> Porsche sent 130 Taycans to the US this year as the automaker dips its toes into the EV space.
> 
> Electrek says the incident took place on Feb 16 in a "garage in South Florida."
> 
> The garage allegedly suffered "significant damage," and the Taycan was a "complete loss," the online EV blog said.


----------



## FeXL

I, For One, Welcome Our New Self-Driving Overlords



> MIT Technology Review;
> 
> Hackers have manipulated multiple Tesla cars into speeding up by 50 miles per hour. The researchers fooled the car’s Mobileye EyeQ3 camera system by subtly altering a speed limit sign on the side of a road in a way that a person driving by would almost never notice.
> 
> This demonstration from the cybersecurity firm McAfee is the latest indication that adversarial machine learning can potentially wreck autonomous driving systems, presenting a security challenge to those hoping to commercialize the technology.
> 
> Mobileye EyeQ3 camera systems read speed limit signs and feed that information into autonomous driving features like Tesla’s automatic cruise control, said Steve Povolny and Shivangee Trivedi from McAfee’s Advanced Threat Research team.
> 
> The researchers stuck a tiny and nearly imperceptible sticker on a speed limit sign. The camera read the sign as 85 instead of 35, and in testing, both the 2016 Tesla Model X and that year’s Model S sped up 50 miles per hour.
> 
> The modified speed limit sign reads as 85 on the Tesla’s heads-up display. *A Mobileye spokesperson downplayed the research by suggesting this sign would fool a human into reading 85 as well.*​


Bold mine.

Perhaps. And, perhaps not.

Thing is, most (I know, I know...) humans would be able to figger out that 85mph is a speed more suited to the freeway, rather than downtown... :lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## FeXL

Man killed in Tesla SUV crash was playing game on smartphone while automated driving was engaged, NTSB says



> The National Transportation Safety Board has discovered that the man who was killed in a crash involving a Tesla SUV was playing a game on his phone at the time of the crash.
> 
> The man was identified as Apple engineer Walter Huang.
> 
> The NTSB said Huang was on his phone playing a game while the vehicle’s autopilot system was engaged. The SUV swerved and hit a concrete barrier on the freeway in Mountain View, California, in March 2018, The Associated Press reported.


----------



## FeXL

I, For One, Welcome Our New Self Driving Overlords

Perfect.

As noted in the comments, now if I see one of these f'ing things behind me at a stop light, especially if I'm on the Hawg, I need to worry about it suddenly running my ass over...


----------



## CubaMark

*Ready to roar: Lion Electric delivers first trucks next month*










Lion Electric Co. plans to deliver its first battery-powered electric trucks in October as high-profile orders from CN and Amazon buoy the Canadian manufacturer. 

The Quebec-based electric vehicle producer plans to have at least 50 of its Class 6 and Class 8 trucks in service by the end of the year, including two of 10 to Amazon. Production at Lion’s Montreal-area plant is ramping up to fulfill what the company says are hundreds of orders.

If Lion keeps to its schedule, it will deliver its first truck only a year-and-a half after announcing the Lion8. The company says it can make up to 2,500 trucks per year, and plans to build a second plant in the United States.

(...)

The Lion8 is on the smaller end of Class 8 trucks, with a curb weight of 24,600 pounds and a gross vehicle weight 54,600 pounds. The truck has a maximum speed of 65 mph and 250-mile range. The smaller Lion6 has a 180-mile range.

Lion likely will face the most direct competition from Freightliner’s electric trucks, the Class 8 eCascadia and Class 6 eM2 106. 

(FreightWaves)​


----------



## eMacMan

This one should have dancing boy doing a jig, at least until the tax jig snags his wallet.
https://driving.ca/features/feature...stin-trudeau-canadian-emissions-electric-cars


----------



## Macfury

*Cost of a Lion 8:* $400,000. 

*Driving range of a Lion 8:* Up to 210 miles. (Yes, ladies and gents, this truck would pooch on a round-trip from Toronto to London.) 
*
Cost of a Class 8 diesel truck:* $125,000.

*Driving range of a Class 8 diesel truck:* Infinite.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> *Cost of a Lion 8:* $400,000.
> 
> *Driving range of a Lion 8:* Up to 210 miles. (Yes, ladies and gents, this truck would pooch on a round-trip from Toronto to London.)


The right technology for the need.

*"Amazon plans to use the trucks for middle-mile operations as part of its Climate Pledge initiative. "*​
If the round trip, say, for urban deliveries from warehouse to customers is nowhere near the maximum range of the vehicle, then your argument is moot.

Add to this the desire to reduce emissions in an urban area for improved pedestrian / resident health, then EVs are all the more logical a choice. EVs don't sit and spew exhaust at stop lights or crawling along on the 401.


----------



## CubaMark

*Electric vehicles and 2,000 jobs coming to Windsor following tentative FCA deal*

A tentative deal reached between Unifor and Fiat Chrysler will bring 2,000 jobs to the Windsor plant along with electric vehicle capability in the next few years. 

The agreement was struck a few minutes before midnight Wednesday, avoiding a possible strike from autoworkers. 

At a press conference this morning, Union President Jerry Dias explained that Unifor managed to secure about a $1.5 billion dollar investment into the Windsor assembly plant, with the majority of the money coming from Fiat Chrysler.

"This is a homerun for the community of Windsor," said Dias. 

*Third shift will return*

In addition to keeping the existing product portfolio in Ontario, Dias says FCA has committed to adding three product derivatives to its plants. 

"Those products will lead to the recall of over 100 members at the Etobicoke casting plant," said Dias. 

Earlier this year, the Windsor plant lost its third shift causing 1,500 workers to be laid off. Today, Dias said the new jobs added will include calling back 425 workers and adding more than 1,500 new jobs to the Windsor region. 

(CBC)​


----------



## Macfury

Unifor is lucky it did not "secure" a quick export of the area's jobs to Mexico. What's up with your sudden support for a plant that requires public money to prop up, CM?


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> What's up with your sudden support for a plant that requires public money to prop up, CM?


He's never been against public money propping up virtue signalling projects: Tesla, renewable energy, globull warming, etc.


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> *Electric vehicles and 2,000 jobs coming to Windsor following tentative FCA deal*...
> 
> *Earlier this year, the Windsor plant lost its third shift causing 1,500 workers to be laid off. Today, Dias said the new jobs added will include calling back 425 workers and adding more than 1,500 new jobs to the Windsor region. *​


Hmm so they laid off 1500 and 425 of them are returning. A good bet that most of the remaining 1125 would be available as finding work right now is next to impossible.

That means that the 1500 new hires will almost certainly be hired at considerably reduced wages and with little or no relevant experience. A double bonus for FCA: Lower wages plus workers whose skill level is guaranteed to help FCA remain at the bottom of the quality heap.

Those new jobs could of course be pie in the sky as it looks like 2024 before they all come online, assuming FCA can sell electric vehicles at all.


----------



## 18m2

This will make some butts pucker, some heads explode and some people wail.

https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/27/harley-davidson-is-getting-into-the-electric-bicycle-business/


----------



## Macfury

18m2 said:


> This will make some butts pucker, some heads explode and some people wail.
> 
> https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/27/harley-davidson-is-getting-into-the-electric-bicycle-business/


Harley has long sold out much of its devoted user base. If they manufacture these in the U.S., more power to them.


----------



## FeXL

It's no worse than the electric motorcycle line they've developed (which is doomed to go nowhere) and, in some cases, actually better.


----------



## eMacMan

Looks like the new Tesla flagship model has everything a true believer could possibly want. Including a lifespan as short as 3 days and the possibility of being roasted alive when the doors don't work after the car catches fire.









New Tesla Model S Plaid catches fire while owner was driving, lawyer says


The NHTSA is investigating, while the owner's lawyer is calling for all Plaid cars to be "grounded"




driving.ca




[QUOTE unfurl="true"]
A Tesla Model S Plaid EV burst into flames on Tuesday while the owner was driving, three days after the US$129,900 top-of-the-range car was delivered following its June launch, an attorney for the driver told Reuters.

The driver, identified as an “executive entrepreneur,” was initially not able to get out of the car because its electronic door system failed, prompting the driver to “use force to push it open,” Mark Geragos, of Geragos & Geragos, said on Friday.

The car continued to move for about 35 feet to 40 feet (11 to 12 meters) before turning into a “fireball” in a residential area near the owner’s Pennsylvania home.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## Macfury

If you have to sacrifice some drivers to serve Gaia, so be it.


----------



## Macfury

GM message for Chevy Bolt owners:

"In an effort to reduce potential damage to structures and nearby vehicles in the rare event of a potential fire, we recommend parking on the top floor or on an open-air deck and park 50 feet or more away from another vehicle. Additionally, we still request you do not leave your vehicle charging unattended, even if you are using a charging station in a parking deck."


----------



## groovetube

Can you imagine if we abandoned gas powered vehicles based on a models possibilities of catching fire?


----------



## groovetube

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-to-build-two-114-billion-mega-campuses-for-electric-car-production-230016248.html





> Ford's portion of the investment — $7 billion — is the largest manufacturing investment in the company's 118-year-old history.


Clearly Ford’s executives are not consulting the learned folks here at ehmac…


----------



## MacDoc

He seems not to remember the Pinto and other death traps. Teething pains nothing new in an emerging industry.
Meanwhile EV takes to the skies...









Opinion | How eBeaver and the electric aviation industry will replace today’s fossil-fuel-powered commercial airliners


The quest of electric-aircraft developers worldwide is to create zero-emission aircraft fleets for short-haul flights, which make up almost half of the industry’s total.




www.thestar.com


----------



## Macfury

I don't care if someone wans to drive car powered by gas, electricity or hydrogen. But with the Pinto, you actually had to be in a collision for it to catch fire. These EVs are blowing up while parked! Just tell the guy trapped inside an e-car engulfed in unextinguishable lithium flames that the industry is undergoing teething pains!

Charging these puppies so that the grid doesn't implode is going to take a lot of fossil fuels, but the energy industry is standing ready!



MacDoc said:


> He seems not to remember the Pinto and other death traps. Teething pains nothing new in an emerging industry.
> Meanwhile EV takes to the skies...


----------



## groovetube

5 minutes and one can discover the millions of recalls due to fires caused by a multitude of things ranging from bad wiring to hot exhausts and more.

will you stop trolling and derailing threads for once. Get a hobby, a puppy, whatever. Maybe a therapist…


----------



## Macfury

The UK is looking at mandating time of day regulations for EV charging. Strain in the grid was something that was predicted by many experts, even with such a limited adoption of EVs.









UK Proposes Law To Switch Off EV Home Chargers During Peak Hours


The UK's Department of Transport has proposed a law stipulating that EV chargers installed at home or the office may not function for up to nine hours a day.




insideevs.com


----------



## groovetube

This makes perfect sense, they suggest not running appliances during the day here as well. We tend to run all our laundry/dishwasher stuff off peak hours and weekends as well.


----------



## MacDoc

Smart grids already exist in some areas and time of day pricing ...nothing new there.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Smart grids already exist in some areas and time of day pricing ...nothing new there.


This is not "time of day" pricing. It's "don't charge your EV because the grid can't handle it."


----------



## groovetube

Well yeah, that’s why they instituted pricing schemes to shape people’s usage here, our grids were becoming overloaded in peak times. With the increase in EV car usage increasing and expected to really ramp up in the coming years, they’re going to have to consider how to handle the increased demands. Perhaps solar on houses much like you see on so many houses in Germany if you were to go over there in person and see it first hand would help. From what I understand, the UK isn’t like Germany. I wonder what Germany’s stance is on EV charging? I bet they’re much more on top of it than the UK is!


----------



## Macfury

Yep. It's an EV problem, not a grid problem.


----------



## groovetube

Ok macfury I think you have your own idea and there’s no point to this conversation anymore for me. Agree to disagree.


----------



## Macfury

I don't read all of your posts, so I'm not disagreeing with you.


----------



## MacDoc

> This is not "time of day" pricing. It's *"don't run your air conditioner *because the grid can't handle it."


ffs - guess you never heard of rolling brown outs


----------



## Macfury

Rolling brown outs are not "time of day pricing." 

I've heard of rolling brown outs in parts of the world that rely more heavily on renewables, California in particular.



MacDoc said:


> ffs - guess you never heard of rolling brown outs


----------



## groovetube

Perhaps you aren’t paying attention to other areas that are experiencing power outages who are fossil fuels.

Adapt or fall by the wayside. Car manufacturers are headed to EVs, in a huge way. It doesn’t matter how many posts people make to criticize, that’s where we’re headed. Power generation will change, it will adapt.


----------



## Macfury

Car manufacturers are turning to EVs because governments are forcing them to. The same governments that can't handle the existing power requirements of their jurisdictions. That's where we're headed!


----------



## groovetube

governments have regulated car manufacturers for decades. This is nothing new. We will have to adapt our power grids, as we always have. Again, nothing new.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, but governments never supplied the fuel for those cars. This is new.



groovetube said:


> governments have regulated car manufacturers for decades. This is nothing new. We will have to adapt our power grids, as we always have. Again, nothing new.


----------



## groovetube

You really need to to do this don't you. Governments have been in the 'fuel business' for a hundred years. fossil and otherwise. 

Nothing new.


----------



## Macfury

Gotcha! Thanks for the history lesson!


----------



## Peterweb

Hopefully the increase in electric cars will come with more people installing solar on their homes as those prices decrease as production for panels gets ramped up. That would help reduce the strain on power grids.


----------



## Macfury

Electricity prices don't necessarily decrease with added homeowner solar capacity. That's because much of your home electricity bill is based on legacy repayments, "green" fees, and the cost of providing and maintaining infrastructure. These are non-negotiable. A program in Phoenix, for example, allowed homeowners to sell excess power back into the grid. The decreased revenue for the utility saw them charging the participating homeowners for grid access, so they could recoup lost revenue. 

Transferring your solar directly to your EV would be a better bet than feeding it back into the grid.



Peterweb said:


> Hopefully the increase in electric cars will come with more people installing solar on their homes as those prices decrease as production for panels gets ramped up. That would help reduce the strain on power grids.


----------



## Peterweb

Macfury said:


> Transferring your solar directly to your EV would be a better bet than feeding it back into the grid.


Maybe I should have been more complete with my suggestion. I did mean to say that panels and local storage so you can charge the vehicle from your own power generation will reduce the strain on the power grid.


----------



## groovetube

Peterweb said:


> Maybe I should have been more complete with my suggestion. I did mean to say that panels and local storage so you can charge the vehicle from your own power generation will reduce the strain on the power grid.


This. My last tour through that took me from one end of Germany to the other, I’ve never seen so many solar panels in any other country. There wasn’t just the huge fields of them, they were all over everyone’s houses. I’m surprised to see that we aren’t even a drop in the bucket in comparison in Canada. Hopefully that will change. I saw a car the other day though, the roof _was _a solar panel. I thought that was interesting, I didn’t catch the make but it looked a pretty snazzy one.


----------



## Macfury

The one extra cost EV drivers are already facing in many jurisdictions--governments want to recoup their gas tax with a flat fee that is part of annual licensing. Cash-strapped Illinois tried to hit EV owners with an annual fee of US$1,000 per year, but reduced it to $250. Saskatchewan wants to start at $150.00


----------



## wonderings

groovetube said:


> This. My last tour through that took me from one end of Germany to the other, I’ve never seen so many solar panels in any other country. There wasn’t just the huge fields of them, they were all over everyone’s houses. I’m surprised to see that we aren’t even a drop in the bucket in comparison in Canada. Hopefully that will change. I saw a car the other day though, the roof _was _a solar panel. I thought that was interesting, I didn’t catch the make but it looked a pretty snazzy one.


I believe Germany for a time offered some very large incentives for solar panels on your house, I do not think they offer them anymore. I could be wrong on this, I just remember we had someone trying to sell our church on the solar panels and the program the Government was offering at the time. He mentioned some European countries that had done this and then scaled back as it was costing too much to pay out. This was used as an incentive to get in now while the rates were good before they scaled back. 

I do love the idea of being able to charge and supply much of your own energy from solar panels, the prices are pretty high though for the panels and installation so not something everyone can afford. Generally only see them on the more opulent houses. I also like the idea of electric vehicles and charging at home, I do wonder though how green it really is when the mining of lithium can be pretty bad on the environment around it. If the entire world switches over to EV for vehicles how will that change the mining? I know we are doing a ton of it now because of all the devices with batteries but that will only escalate with vehicles and the amount of lithium needed for each battery, plus replacements down the line.


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## Macfury

wonderings said:


> I believe Germany for a time offered some very large incentives for solar panels on your house, I do not think they offer them anymore. I could be wrong on this, I just remember we had someone trying to sell our church on the solar panels and the program the Government was offering at the time. He mentioned some European countries that had done this and then scaled back as it was costing too much to pay out. This was used as an incentive to get in now while the rates were good before they scaled back.


They still offer them. Feed-in-tariffs (FITs) that pay homeowners above-market prices for generating solar electricity. In Canada, they were paying FIT to companies like Ikea who were putting the panels on their rooves and getting four times market value for putting that electricity back into the grid.



wonderings said:


> I do wonder though how green it really is when the mining of lithium can be pretty bad on the environment around it. If the entire world switches over to EV for vehicles how will that change the mining? I know we are doing a ton of it now because of all the devices with batteries but that will only escalate with vehicles and the amount of lithium needed for each battery, plus replacements down the line.


If CO2 is your boogeyman then any tradeoff becomes worthwhile. Most reasonable analyses suggest it's an environmental wash, with lower tailpipe emissions here, and some of our bad-for-the-environment processes (acid processing of graphite for example) exported to other countries. China controls a lot of the lithium supply, but there are plenty of sources in Australia, Argentina and Chile -- and some American. Lots of graphite even in Canada and cleaner ways to process it. But supply chains still favour processing and manufacturing battery materials and components overseas.


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## MacDoc

Not Tesla - factory is US and they are switching out of lithium batteries.

"Environmental wash" is a ridiculous statement...I don't think I have to explain that.


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## Macfury

Tesla has most battery production in Nevada with some of the supply of lithium-iron-phosphate batteries moving to Korea and China.

Panasonic has some sort of new battery that is not yet in production. Is that the one you believe contains no lithium?


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## groovetube

MacDoc said:


> Not Tesla - factory is US and they are switching out of lithium batteries.
> 
> "Environmental wash" is a ridiculous statement...I don't think I have to explain that.


It’s so ridiculous it’s not worth even addressing.


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## Macfury

If you know something about Tesla's move away from lithium batteries, I wish you would share.



groovetube said:


> It’s so ridiculous it’s not worth even addressing.


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## groovetube

I haven’t mentioned that, but nice try. 

I would be interested in seeing an extensive list of credible peer reviewed science that offers said “reasonable analysis” of EVs being an ‘environmental wash’.


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## Macfury

Economics are not science. That's why you won't see it treated as a peer-reviewed clinical trial, either for or against.


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## groovetube

And that’s what I thought folks. 

Todays a nice day, ima gonna go mingle outside with all the cars fossil fuel and the growing number of EVs around.

I just read that Hertz just dropped an order of a 100,000 EVs for rental cars. Didn’t anyone there hire an economist??? Gah. Ta ta for now!


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## Macfury

Yes, Hertz hired an economist — now you're getting it!


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## groovetube

Shine on!!


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## Macfury

Though I would probably fire that economist at this point. Barely emerging from bankruptcy, this business model--renting EVs to Uber drivers, sounds like a pump and dump scheme.


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## MacDoc

LPF batteries. Lithium is abundant ...cobalt is not.

Hertz moving to all EV makes a ton of sense. Low maintenance costs. low operating costs and longevity. Same reasons taxis are nearly all hybrids or EVs.


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## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Hertz moving to all EV makes a ton of sense. Low maintenance costs. low operating costs and longevity. Same reasons taxis are nearly all hybrids or EVs.


Read their business model. It seems to have something to do with renting most of them to Uber drivers.


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## groovetube

So? Doesn’t matter who they’re renting to. They chose EVs.


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## Macfury

A needle in a haystack! And it took you to find it!



groovetube said:


> So? Doesn’t matter who they’re renting to. They chose EVs.


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## Rps

Well I’ll toss my two cents in...I own a Chevy Volt, a hybrid...it has a battery which is charged by hydro, and when it’s range runs out...gas to charge the battery. I get around 50 miles on a charge...and a range of 320 when using gas to charge the battery. While in Windsor I do all my driving on electric...it costs me $22 per month to do my daily driving. I wouldn’t buy a straight electric now...maybe in 10 years when the infrastructure and battery technology is such that it rivals a regular gas station....and that day will come..but not now. I truly believe my Volt is the right idea in a cold country like Canada.....just change from gas to hydrogen and away we go........it’s coming but we aren’t there yet.


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## Macfury

Rps said:


> Well I’ll toss my two cents in...I own a Chevy Volt, a hybrid...it has a battery which is charged by hydro, and when it’s range runs out...gas to charge the battery. I get around 50 miles on a charge...and a range of 320 when using gas to charge the battery. While in Windsor I do all my driving on electric...it costs me $22 per month to do my daily driving. I wouldn’t buy a straight electric now...maybe in 10 years when the infrastructure and battery technology is such that it rivals a regular gas station....and that day will come..but not now. I truly believe my Volt is the right idea in a cold country like Canada.....just change from gas to hydrogen and away we go........it’s coming but we aren’t there yet.


I'm all about choice and much of the pro-EV lobby is often about forcing electrics into a market that is not ready to accommodate them. This looks like an ideal solution for you. Much better when people adopt a new technology because they think it works for them, not because the market is rigged to force them into it.


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## Rps

Macfury said:


> I'm all about choice and much of the pro-EV lobby is often about forcing electrics into a market that is not ready to accommodate them. This looks like an ideal solution for you. Much better when people adopt a new technology because hey think it works for them, not because the market is rigged to force them into it.


True, while the Volt works for me ( and I truly believe electric cars would work best for city drivers ) our winter cuts into range. It will be decades before gas or diesel is replaced up north.


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## groovetube

Macfury said:


> A needle in a haystack! And it took you to find it!


Im sorry I have no idea what this post actually means.

Let’s recap here. First it’s an ‘environmental wash’, but we can’t offer a facts with scientific peer reviewed science because somehow, that’s economics not science. Absolutely ridiculous.

EVs are a bad idea because apparently our power grid can’t handle it. But despite it being 2021, and having made massive technological advancements for some time now, it’s simply not possible to make advancements to adapt to new requirements. No factual reasons, just, slam and go. Oh forgot, EVs bad because apparently governments want to levy a surcharge on EV owners to help pay for the road infrastructure they drive on, something drivers paying for gasoline have already been paying for for years.

And Hertz rental ordering 100,000 EV cars is a ‘needle in a haystack’, despite the flood of announcements of many major car manufacturers worldwide converting and opening more and more production of EV vehicles, some even announcing they will -only- produce EV and stop production of fossil fuel vehicles in a decade or so, but, ‘needle in a haystack’.

This is going nowhere. I come here to read news items on this topic for my own personal interest, and I’m certainly interested in well reasoned arguments on either side of this topic, but I see NOTHING of substance so far behind your opinions.


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## Macfury

Hey groove, when you put it that way, it's genius!


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## groovetube

I don’t think there’s much ‘genius’ happening at all.


Rps said:


> True, while the Volt works for me ( and I truly believe electric cars would work best for city drivers ) our winter cuts into range. It will be decades before gas or diesel is replaced up north.


I suspect the same, though technological advances are coming quick, I’m sure they’ll solve this. I’ve thought that despite a strong move to EVs fossil fuel is far from finished. But, I think it’s simply irrational to think fossil fuels will disappear entirely in 10 years. To deal with climate change, fossil fuels need to be massively reduced. Not eradicated entirely.

Our next car will be EV, I’ve already deadheaded a big line from my panel through the wall to the back towards the garage in prep for that some day.


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## Rps

groovetube said:


> I don’t think there’s much ‘genius’ happening at all.
> 
> I suspect the same, though technological advances are coming quick, I’m sure they’ll solve this. I’ve thought that despite a strong move to EVs fossil fuel is far from finished. But, I think it’s simply irrational to think fossil fuels will disappear entirely in 10 years. To deal with climate change, fossil fuels need to be massively reduced. Not eradicated entirely.
> 
> Our next car will be EV, I’ve already deadheaded a big line from my panel through the wall to the back towards the garage in prep for that some day.


That will help. I’ve been working locally to try and get the building codes changed to ensure a 220 line is standard in a garage for new homes…..more and more we see that here, but most are putting kitchens in their garages here….but it’s a good move to think ahead Groove. I still think a hybrid is the way to go for the next decade or so….in your case you might be able to do a straight electric, but if you have out of town gigs could be an issue. Speaking from experience here.


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## Rps

groovetube said:


> I don’t think there’s much ‘genius’ happening at all.
> 
> I suspect the same, though technological advances are coming quick, I’m sure they’ll solve this. I’ve thought that despite a strong move to EVs fossil fuel is far from finished. But, I think it’s simply irrational to think fossil fuels will disappear entirely in 10 years. To deal with climate change, fossil fuels need to be massively reduced. Not eradicated entirely.
> 
> Our next car will be EV, I’ve already deadheaded a big line from my panel through the wall to the back towards the garage in prep for that some day.


This could haul your kit Groove……





2022 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid | Chrysler Canada


Explore the all new 2022 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid minivan, featuring best in class fuel economy, advanced technology, and over 115 safety features.




www.chrysler.ca


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## Macfury

This is a religious belief, not borne out by historical data.



groovetube said:


> To deal with climate change, fossil fuels need to be massively reduced.


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## groovetube

Rps said:


> This could haul your kit Groove……
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2022 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid | Chrysler Canada
> 
> 
> Explore the all new 2022 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid minivan, featuring best in class fuel economy, advanced technology, and over 115 safety features.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chrysler.ca


Yeah that’d do nicely! I have a newer rav4 and it’s plenty room. I’d likely trade this in on a hybrid soon. There’s been talk of EV here but we’ll see what makes sense when the time comes.


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## Macfury

I was wondering earlier amidst all of the applause and back slapping how recently-bankrupt Hertz could afford a massive order of Teslas. Truth is they never ordered them.


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## Rps

Macfury said:


> I was wondering earlier amidst all of the applause and back slapping how recently-bankrupt Hertz could afford a massive order of Teslas. Truth is they never ordered them.
> 
> View attachment 94289


To be fair, Hertz has emerged from bankruptcy with new owners....but true, it doesn’t mean they are out of the woods yet. Additionally, Musk did not say Hertz didn’t order any units only that a contract was not signed.....many would say that is the same thing, but Musk had a very deliberate reply. Hertz has indicated it has already begun receiving units.....but, again, that is Hertz talking.


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## Macfury

Rps said:


> To be fair, Hertz has emerged from bankruptcy with new owners....but true, it doesn’t mean they are out of the woods yet. Additionally, Musk did not say Hertz didn’t order any units only that a contract was not signed.....many would say that is the same thing, but Musk had a very deliberate reply. Hertz has indicated it has already begun receiving units.....but, again, that is Hertz talking.


Still, the company's cash position with its new owners didn't seem to justify a purchase of this size.

I can order all of Amazon's catalogue as long as I don't complete the contract by paying for it! Musk says no Teslas are being delivered. Some order may go through eventually, but this was clearly a stock-pumping exercise to enrich owners of the stock.

Musk also points out what the average consumer is unaware of. Most rental companies get the cars for a significant discount so that when they sell off the fleet, they can make a nice chunk of change selling at market value. Sounds like Hertz was sniffing around for the discount.


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## Rps

Macfury said:


> Duplicate post.


I don’t disagree...


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## Macfury

Rps said:


> I don’t disagree...


Then "like" it!


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## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Still, the company's cash position with its new owners didn't seem to justify a purchase of this size.
> 
> I can order all of Amazon's catalogue as long as I don't complete the contract by paying for it! Musk says no Teslas are being delivered. Some order may go through eventually, but this was clearly a stock-pumping exercise to enrich owners of the stock.
> 
> Musk also points out what the average consumer is unaware of. Most rental companies get the cars for a significant discount so that when they sell off the fleet, they can make a nice chunk of change selling at market value. Sounds like Hertz was sniffing around for the discount.


An anonymous opinion plus a dime still won't get you a cup of coffee. Nothing is really "clearly" unless you have concrete evidence. Hertz's stock rise isn't enough.


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## groovetube

Rps said:


> To be fair, Hertz has emerged from bankruptcy with new owners....but true, it doesn’t mean they are out of the woods yet. Additionally, Musk did not say Hertz didn’t order any units only that a contract was not signed.....many would say that is the same thing, but Musk had a very deliberate reply. Hertz has indicated it has already begun receiving units.....but, again, that is Hertz talking.


It's funny how people snark at Musk's tweets until it suits them. Your 'to be fair' comment is bang on. I think I’d like to wait for further analysis that isn’t based on a couple tweets junkroom stock hacks.


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## Macfury

You based your early praise of the "deal" on news reports that were based entirely on what Hertz said. When Tesla says "no deal" you want more analysis?



groovetube said:


> It's funny how people snark at Musk's tweets until it suits them. Your 'to be fair' comment is bang on. I think I’d like to wait for further analysis that isn’t based on a couple tweets junkroom stock hacks.


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## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You based your early praise of the "deal" on news reports that were based entirely on what Hertz said. When Tesla says "no deal" you want more analysis?


I didn’t ‘praise’ anything, I merely reported what I read in the news I thought relevant. If you could reply without putting words into peoples mouths they never said, then perhaps I’ll have more to say.


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## Macfury

Many people just take their news straight off the wire without checking it. You're not alone.



groovetube said:


> I didn’t ‘praise’ anything, I merely reported what I read in the news I thought relevant. If you could reply without putting words into peoples mouths they never said, then perhaps I’ll have more to say.


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## groovetube

No it appears I’m not!









Hertz says Tesla's already started delivering cars even though Musk says there's no signed deal yet


Hertz declined to discuss details of the agreement but said the company remains "on plan" with its announcement to offer 100,000 Teslas by the end of 2022.




www.cnbc.com





You should perhaps wait until more information comes out before making quick judgements macfury. This is far from done I suspect. You may not be the only one to take Musk’s tweets as the gospel!

To be clear, I’m just posting this info as ‘more info’ as this develops. There’s no ‘praise’ or assumptions onthe absolute truth of any of it as we learn more. Just to clear up any confusion.


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## Macfury

Yes, Musk's tweet was a response to that announcement by Hertz.


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## Rps

Macfury said:


> Yes, Musk's tweet was a response to that announcement by Hertz.


The issue here is vagueness….. nothing definitive only implied….I wonder if Musk will soon be a stock holder of Hertz…..wouldn’t be the first car company to align with rentals.


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## Macfury

Rps said:


> The issue here is vagueness….. nothing definitive only implied….I wonder if Musk will soon be a stock holder of Hertz…..wouldn’t be the first car company to align with rentals.


He could have bought the entire company just on Tesla's stock pumps following the false news of the purchase announcement!


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## groovetube

Or the truth could lie somewhere in the middle here. Hertz could have boasted about a huge order helping inspire some confidence in their stock, which may be _mostly _true, given their reports of Tesla’s being delivered (I am assuming this is true) and Musk is doing a little backpedaling publically to ease fears about their deliverabilty issues. perhaps there isn’t a ironclad contract for 100k vehicles, but certainly plans in place and is in full swing.

I suspect this to be a little closer to the reality, and reacting to tweets as fact isn’t going to make much sense in the end.

So while that’s a bit of a derailing of the actual topic… back to the original thought in this thread, there is a huge ramping up in production of EVs happening.


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## Macfury

EV production will ramp up simply because government demands it. That's already baked in.


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## groovetube

I think someone has conveniently forgotten about the days when EVs were effectively killed off in favour of gas powered vehicles.

But whatever floats yer boat as they say!


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