# Gas!



## minimadman (Apr 26, 2005)

I live in waterloo and noticed tonights magic number is 105.9 or the current gas price!!!! Just wanted to put it out there.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Its 105 here? Wow, in KW... What gas station?


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

2 weekends ago, my cousins told me it was $106.4 in downtown Montreal.

I'm back to using my bicycle almost exclusively. I think this is a good thing, both for my health and for the planet.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

It's currenly $1.12 in NB.


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

I went out today and gas jumped from 96.8 to 104.5 this afternoon in Barrie ... not good ...


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

That's odd. The cost of the TTC was still the same this morning....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

$1.06 a liter here in St.John's as of this morning. Still, it is "perfectly" understandable based on the latest earning figures --

"Canada’s four major oil companies earned $286-million on petroleum products in the second quarter of 2005, a decline of 6.8% from earnings of $307-million in the same period in 2004, according to a Ministry of Energy analysis." How many companies could hope to survive with profits slipping nearly 7% year to year???


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## markceltic (Jun 4, 2005)

The title of the thread was gas. I assumed you were suffering from it,the gastrointestinal variety . Take a Bean-o & call me in the morning, lol !


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I wish I had a bicycle.


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## trump (Dec 7, 2004)

$1.01 in Markham (northern GTA)


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## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

I haven't been out lately...but ouch! Premium must be even worse--turning the Bimmers into Bummers.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I gassed up this afternoon for 94.0 in St. Albert, just outside of Edmonton.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

108.9 in Victoria... Hate to think what they pay on Salt Spring Island...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

1.07.9 Lindsay area. Paid 94 tonight near the airport. Time for regular Indian Joe's fillups in Lewiston. With a 102 litre tank it's worth it.

BTW this might to a good spot for "gas deals" around the country or at least the links for your area if there is a tracking site.


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## ram55 (Jan 24, 2003)

http://www.torontogasprices.com/index.aspx?tme_limit=8


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

http://www.edmontongasprices.com/


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

AppleAuthority said:


> I haven't been out lately...but ouch! Premium must be even worse--turning the Bimmers into Bummers.


Premium was 115 i believe. Its always 10 cents higher


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Paid 91 this morning out in Merryhill.


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## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

110.0 in Burnaby the other day.

I can't wait to get my scooter


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> That's odd. The cost of the TTC was still the same this morning....


Because they probably do what OCTranspo does here in Ottawa, buy in bulk. I read in the paper this morning that Ottawa's director of fleet services has a bulk contract to June 2006 where they pay $0.78 a litre. An advantage of having a big fleet of buses.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

110.1 in West Van yesterday, 109.9 in Burnaby the day before that.

It's a MAD HOUSE!


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Good! These high gas prices might mean people start taking energy more seriously. We need to invest in alternative fuels and energy solutions.

Maybe we'll start seeing more none-gas/diesal cars, more solar-panels on roofs, more anything that isn't oil dependant.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

112.9 here in Sydney, NS.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

couple of gas stations around Dufferin and Eglinton are at 100.7

Laterz


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## Jacklar (Jul 23, 2005)

While its good that high gas price might encourage people to use alternative means of travel or mass transit in the city. This hurts rural citizens extremely hard. I live out in the country and HAVE to use a car to travel.. we've got no other choice otherwise we would use it to save money.


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

Bayview and Sheppard stations were showing 98.1 on the way home from work. (Esso and Shell.)

I have to get gas... light's been on for about 35km...


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Jacklar said:


> This hurts rural citizens extremely hard. I live out in the country and HAVE to use a car to travel.


Unfortunately, that is one of the realities of living in a remote location. Although housing prices in major centres like Toronto are obscene, they are offset by cheaper transit costs.

You probably got yourself a good deal on your property / house. That is what is paying for your fuel costs now.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

*50 Litre Challenge*

If you're interested in a new car with good mileage check out these 10 contenders. Just note that the Honda Civic got an amazing 1022kms on 1 50L tank of gas.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/50-litre.htm

Laterz


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## markceltic (Jun 4, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Unfortunately, that is one of the realities of living in a remote location. Although housing prices in major centres like Toronto are obscene, they are offset by cheaper transit costs.
> 
> You probably got yourself a good deal on your property / house. That is what is paying for your fuel costs now.


 Yeah it's something we'll just have to get used to, I'll take paying more at the pump than living in a "major centre" any day  .


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Hypothetically speaking here of course, if we all decided NOT to drive our vehicles anymore and used other modes of transportation, wouldn't that put the oil companies out of business?

As of today the gas stations around my area, will not be getting my money until the price drops below $0.90 again. I am using other methods of transportation, and even though it is a huge pain in the ass, I am not about to pay $1.05 or more for gas. If the government wants to pay me another $5.00 an hour to off set my now new expense of the month, then I think that would be fair. It is one thing to raise cost of living, but to keep the wages low while doing that, is just not fair. 

I guess if we never see the price of gas below $1.00 again, the automobile industry can kiss the SUV's good bye, which could be a good thing. Already I have come across a lot of people who are either going to sell theirs and get an economical car, or mostly from young people who are ready to buy have changed their minds and are now looking at smaller cars. But, if we see higher wages to balance the cost of living, then everything will be fine. Until then, it looks like my vehicle will be going into hibernation for the time being.

So yeah, keep increasing the prices oil companies, because you won't be seeing my $$$ at the pumps. Great business ethics eh?


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## highapostle (Apr 21, 2004)

markceltic said:


> Yeah it's something we'll just have to get used to, I'll take paying more at the pump than living in a "major centre" any day  .


Me, I'm the exact opposite - since moving to the Greektown area of Toronto I'll drive maybe a couple times a month at most, and I'm completely happy with that. To each his (or her) own ...


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

Just went over a dollar here in Calgary.

Seriously though, is there not any way we can get these corporations to justify these prices, this is complete bull, all the way around, they know it, we know it, the government knows it. There is NOTHING that can justify this, especially when in some places, the price is over a dollar more than it is here. WTF!!!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

99.4 here today.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Cue Jaws theme......courtesy NYT today. 

•••

BTW anyone near the Lewiston border - Indian Joe's price is around 70¢ Cdn per litre and on my 102 litre tank ......that's a chunk of change.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Up in cottage country, its 104.9.


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## agent4321 (Jun 25, 2004)

With the way gas prices are going it's predicted that by december you will be paying in the neighborhood of $1.50!  

The end is coming!


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## Elias26 (Apr 19, 2005)

A friend and I are thinking that bigger vehicles like cars with bigger engines, SUVs, vans, and trucks will become obsolete to the average consumer. Only the rich will be able to afford to run them. Of course our estimates are based on 10 years from now. My brother has a 2002 standard V6 Mustang and he complains about gas prices even. That's why vehicles like the Smart car are now being introduced because they are so cheap on gas. Having said that, they also only sit two people and would most likely fold up like an accordion player if they even got hit by a Dodge Neon. 

Seems like hybrids will be the only way to go if you want to own a bigger vehicle. Of course the main problem with that is they aren't good for long distance traveling. Or that's what the fossil fuel (gas) companies want us to think.  

We probably have the technology to produce a good sized vehicle that could cover a lot of distance. They just don't want that to get out because that would mean putting the big boys out of business.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

I agree with Elias. Although, I've heard that the Smart is actually a pretty safe car. If it weren't safe then it shouldn't be out there. (I think we learned form the pinto) I personally think smaller cars like the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic are where its at right now. Get them in a 5 speed manual, theyre quite efficient, i think around 40mpg in the city and 53 on the highway, and have lots of zip because of the 5 speed manual.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Forgot to mention, gas prices at marinas have been ridiculous. They've been around the $1.40- $1.50 ish range already. Some of us were talking about that earlier.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDaddy said:


> Just went over a dollar here in Calgary.
> 
> Seriously though, is there not any way we can get these corporations to justify these prices, this is complete bull, all the way around, they know it, we know it, the government knows it. There is NOTHING that can justify this, especially when in some places, the price is over a dollar more than it is here. WTF!!!


It's a buck eighteen for regular, here on Salt Spring right now. 

Right now...the local Salt Spring supermarket has ICE AGE bottled water priced at ...wait for it...a buck eighteen per one liter bottle. (On sale this week).

Carley Spring water (superior in quality to ICE AGE) is priced at just over a buck a gallon in the most popular size. Which is a five gallon watercooler bottle, BTW. Carley Spring one liter bottles sell for about a buck sixty five in the expensive convenience stores around here. Two bucks a liter in the movie theatre. (captive market)

So much for the old tired myth that "bottled water is more expensive than gasoline".

And MUCH of that ridiculous gas price in Canada is government tax, after all.  

Want to get cheaper gas? Then call or email your MP and TELL them that you are not happy with the current tax load on fuel!

Do it NOW!

Or pipe down.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacNutt said:


> Want to get cheaper gas? Then call or email your MP and TELL them that you are not happy with the current tax load on fuel!
> 
> Do it NOW!


MacNutt wants us to nationalise the gas industry! Now that's progressive thinking for once...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

What are you smoking, my friend? 

The gasoline industry is private. Always has been. Other than that dead end incursion by Trudeau when he bought Petro Fina and turned it into Petro Canada.

The Liberal Government has just about sold their very last interest in Petro Can, BTW.

Are you under the mistaken impression that Canada has a nationalised petrolem industry??  

Hang on...you watch the CBC all of the time, don't you? So there is no way that you could actually know what is real and what is not, correct?

My apologies. I didn't realise.

We are now building ramps that lead up from the street level CBC Liberal world ...right up to reality! . We need to make you CBC watchers comfortable with the rest of the real world. Make you feel right at home here on planet earth.

Feel free to wheel up that steep ramp and join the rest of us. We will do everything we can to make you feel right at home. And not a bit "different" from all the rest of us...

Promise.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> MacNutt wants us to nationalise the gas industry! Now that's progressive thinking for once...


Yes. That's the way to go. Nationalise it!

Oh wait! When bottled water gets too expensive, nationalise it.

And when college gets too expensive, nationalise it.

Heck, nationalise everything! Then we can be uber-productive like Cuba!

There is ZERO reason to complain about high-gas prices. We live in a free market.

If you drive a car to work, consider public transportation.

If you live too far away from work to tack public transportation, you made that decision yourself. Either move or change jobs.

If you drive for a living, charge your customers more (airlines do it!).

If you are a taxi cab, petition the city to have a fuel surcharge added to the meter.

There are a lot of options. Demanding the government do something to reduce the price of gas is a stupid one.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

The only people that I see that have gone completely insane over the price of gas are the ones driving huge SUV's. A few years ago when the price of gas was around .75 a litre I pulled up to the local Shell and a Ford Excursion was filling up and I decided to look at the pump to see how much he paid in gas for that behemoth and it came out to 125.00  at today's gas prices that would come to 170.98  to fill it up no wonder there mad.

PS: the Ford Excursion has a 166.5L tank

Laterz


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

lpkmckenna said:


> That's odd. The cost of the TTC was still the same this morning....


That will change. And then not be adjusted downward if gas prices drop. (As if...)


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

The days of gas prices being below $0.90 are over now. You might see it drop to $0.99 for a day here and there, but for the majority we are now going to be paying over $1.00 for gas.

I myself have parked my vehicle and walk to work and back, public transit will only see my money if I choose to use it, I can actually get to work quicker by walking an hour to work then taking a bus. So, out of the hundreds of $$ I used to spend on gasoline and support the fuel companies, they will now be (-) my hundreds of dollars per month on fuel. Great business solution on part of the fuel companies eh?

It doesn't matter though, not enough people put up a fight, walk or take public transit in times like this, so will my money which I am not putting into buying gasoline make an impact? probably very little if not anything to the fuel companies. 

Oh and remember for those that signed up for saving 10 cents by using one of them credit card options, who do you think pays the other 10 cents for gas? The fuel companies by jacking up the gas prices. So, are you really saving any money in the end? Remember nothing is free or considered a saving when it comes to dealing with the gasoline companies. So, by saving 10 cents a litre are you not contributing to the problem of higher gas prices?

That's my theory to saving 10 cents on gas prices. Notice how they didn't come out with that 10 years ago. They must be a little slow in these companies.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

guytoronto said:


> There is ZERO reason to complain about high-gas prices. We live in a free market.
> 
> If you drive a car to work, consider public transportation.


Easier said than done in rural areas. Public transportation simply does not exist in most small towns in western Canada.



guytoronto said:


> If you live too far away from work to tack public transportation, you made that decision yourself. Either move or change jobs.


When one lives in a community of less than 500 residents, most commute to jobs in larger centres with say, 2,500 to 3,000 residents. Changing jobs is not an option available to those who reside in rural western Canada since jobs are few and far between in small centres.



guytoronto said:


> If you drive for a living, charge your customers more (airlines do it!).


So your theory is to make others pay high fuel prices. Not much of a solution, is it?



guytoronto said:


> If you are a taxi cab, petition the city to have a fuel surcharge added to the meter.


Having never met a person who is a taxi cab, this could prove difficult. On the other hand if you meant taxi cab owners, that too is not an option in rural western Canada. No taxis you see.



guytoronto said:


> There are a lot of options. Demanding the government do something to reduce the price of gas is a stupid one.


When there are no other options available to rural residents, demanding government intervention is indeed some Canadians only option, and a wise one at that. One needs to understand the plight of ALL Canadians, not just those who reside in the "centre of the universe".


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

A NeoCon calling for price controls.......hell indeed is getting frosty. 

One solution is for Alberta to get off it's undirected ass and use the windfall to develop a hydrogen and alternate energy economy for the entire nation.

There are thousands of excellent energy projects that need funding and research - strange when so many of the energy companies themselves are moving in that direction Alberta just drifts rudderless musing about "what to do, what to do" with the windfall.

I'll tell you this, with the report just released Ontario is not going to put up with the imbalances in income streams any longer.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> I'll tell you this, with the report just released Ontario is not going to put up with the imbalances in income streams any longer.


Typical eastern response, reinstate the NEP and take what they want.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Typical eastern response, reinstate the NEP and take what they want.


^ Typical Western response


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## Elias26 (Apr 19, 2005)

Been reading through some threads but it seems as though MacNutt and Artist have some kind of relationship with eachother that's best saved for closed doors.

Teasing!!!

Comprehab actually brought it to my attention how you guys are always at eachother. He thinks it's cute.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I did? and I do? news to me....
I do however remember pointing out some loop holes in a certain someone's posts....


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Well, i guess it is kinda cute...


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> I'll tell you this, with the report just released Ontario is not going to put up with the imbalances in income streams any longer.


You mean that the Provincial Government is going to start looking into new and exciting ways to stimulate your economy? Sweet!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

What kind of assinine remark is that?? - we pay out 12 billion more than we receive - our economy is just fine thankyou - the transfer payment system is out of balance.

For someone from a province getting the benefits that's a pretty stupid comment.

For BC for the last three years - 320 million, 682 million and projected 590 million in 05/06

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

Ontario earns it, not windfall energy income . 



> *Natural gas is the new darling of B.C.'s economic engine*. After Alberta, B.C. is the largest producer of natural gas in Canada. Prices have shot up with increased demand from the U.S. Prices for base metals -- still relatively important for the economies of some rural pockets -- have also fared well recently.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

An excellent NY Times magazine cover story explaining why it's happening:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/21/magazine/21OIL.html

Long, yes. But a worthwhile read. 

Gas is not going to get substantially cheaper for many reasons listed in the article. 
1) More competition for resources from developing countries like China and India. 
2) Finite supplies. We don't even know how much petroleum the Saudis have left in spite of their statements that there's lots left (yeah sure).
3) Wells that are productive are subject to being over-pumped. Efforts to increase production can cause them to lose pressure, rendering them useless.

Other interesting details in the article. Not all the oil people are bad guys. A few talk turkey to the writer and give salient details.

Oh, and my oil is approx. $2.63 in the NY area. I'm talking about gallons.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

A most interesting read, Miss G. Thanks for the URL. Yes, the era of "cheap oil" is over, as is easily accessible oil.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

For those not subscribing to the NY Times the article is here and indeed worth reading

NY Times on Oil


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> we pay out 12 billion more than we receive - our economy is just fine thankyou


If you're economy is doing well, what's the problem with helping to support the rest of the country?



MacDoc said:


> Ontario earns it, not windfall energy income


Oh, I forgot, out east working hard to extract natural resources for economic gain doesn't count as "earning it."


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> I'll tell you this, with the report just released Ontario is not going to put up with the imbalances in income streams any longer.


I just saw a report that claims that Ontario is about to become a "Have-Not" province!  

A crumbling old infrastructure. Massive shortages of energy (while your short-sighted liberal government is promising to 'shut down even MORE electrical generating facilities!'). A dying manufacturing sector...especially once the Kyoto Accord becomes reality...the giant outmigration from Ontario of the best and brightest towards the booming west that is now taking place (why do you think our property prices are so much higher than yours, these days? And still growing!)

And you have the pomposity and audacity to threaten us? Again??!? Good LUCK, buddy!  

If what is then left of devastated and pollouted Ontario can get the lights to stay on even long enough to twitch a threatening eyelash in our direction....

Then we will cut you loose and let you sink. 

The west is the future. The east is the PAST.

Trust me on this.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Then we will cut you loose and let you sink." We here in Canada's "far east" think otherwise. In Ontario's time of need, we shall be there for all of you. You were here for us when we were in need, and now we shall return this sense of kinship. Canadian's help out other Canadians, be they people or provinces, when they are in need. We don't build walls of brick or rhetoric and mock some person/province when things are tough.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Sorry Macnutt, but that last post reeks of "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark" that made fools of us years ago.

Our Canada should include every province and territory and if they are in trouble, we should do our level best to assist, not cut them loose.

That assistance should come freely and voluntarily, and not through any resurrected NEP.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Hear, hear SINC. This country is built on its diversity and common sense. Federalism needs effort and goodwill to succeed. Arrogant diatribes by our provincial politicians simply fuels their own political agendas. We are interdependent and stronger for it. No one should be jealous of their neighbour and we should all help each other out. However, that help should not be legislated but voluntary and fair. Canadians are not, by and large, selfish.

I do think that Alberta needs a new generation of forward thinking leadership. When all I hear is that the $7 billion surplus is going to be put into building new roads and infrastructure, I worry about the lack of investment in other aspects of the province. It's universities under-perform and are starved of funds for innovation and its hi-tech and manufacturing sector is less than dynamic. Alberta needs to lead the country in investing in an economy that is not resource-based, not simply lay more blacktop.

Lead the way!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

The Premier of NL, Danny Williams, is investing some of the money we received from Ottawa (from some the money they have made off of the east coast oil) into a three year tuition freeze at all of our post-secondary universitites. We have had a flood of new students from Nova Scotia to BC and provinces in-between, who want a quality education at a fine university with one of the lowest tuition rates in the country. I had to pay my son's first semester tuition and fees this week, and it came to just over $1400. Books should run him about $400, so that is what I earn by teaching a couple of extra web courses. I told him that I would pay his tuition and books each year if he got good grades. 

Still, I am only able to do this because of the tuition freeze, which was a direct beneficiary of reinvested oil money.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Gee UTBJ, it looks like NL might be leading the way. I will speak to my old environment minister RK and see what we might be able to improve!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

SINC said:


> Sorry Macnutt, but that last post reeks of "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark" that made fools of us years ago.
> 
> Our Canada should include every province and territory and if they are in trouble, we should do our level best to assist, not cut them loose.
> 
> That assistance should come freely and voluntarily, and not through any resurrected NEP.


Agreed....if "they are in trouble out there in Ontario, the we should help them out".

This goes without saying. Same with ANY Province that is needy in our Confederation. This is the deal.

BUT!!....

If the failing Ontario or the rest of the needy ones suddenly decide that they have the right to SIEZE the extra wealth that we have worked so very hard to build out here in the west...

Then we WILL, summarily, "cut them loose and ket them sink" Without a second thought.   

Trust me on this.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

You know, as much as dislike some of the attitude that comes out of Ontario, especially that directed towards the west of Canada, I'd hardly call them failing. 

I wouldn't worry about them seizing any B.C. wealth at the moment, either. We haven't really got any.


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## minimadman (Apr 26, 2005)

*price*

Gas in Waterloo at the shell up by U of W is 98.7! She's coming down. Yay!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Still over 1.15 here in St.John's. Hopefully, this downward trend shall catch up with the rest of Canada. We shall see.


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## cheshire_cat (Aug 28, 2005)

102.1 in Mississauga a few weeks ago. *shaking head*Didn't think I'd ever see it get to that price.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

CC, re your comment "102.1 in Mississauga a few weeks ago. *shaking head*Didn't think I'd ever see it get to that price", we shall likely say "Those were the good old days" if the price of oil keeps going UP.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> we shall likely say "Those were the good old days" if the price of oil keeps going UP.


Unless you happen to own stock in petrol companies - record profits all around....
Cigars all around boys....


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

PosterBoy said:


> You know, as much as dislike some of the attitude that comes out of Ontario, especially that directed towards the west of Canada, I'd hardly call them failing.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about them seizing any B.C. wealth at the moment, either. We haven't really got any.


Ummm...that might have been true during the past decade of NDP mismanagement. But these days BC is booming. Has been ever since we got rid of the union-powered screwups who were doing us in.

And we are leading the way in growth for the whole nation, these days. On a whole range of measureable fronts. Have been for some time now.

Not the least of which is in-migration from Ontario (AND Alberta. AND almost every other part of this country. With a healthy dose of Americans thrown in for good measure.)! Not their "poor and downtrodden and huddled masses" either.

We are getting their best and brightest and wealthiest out here. In droves.

Who do you think is driving these bizarre property prices? Which are, I believe, the highest in all of Canada. (upwards of 600 grand for a single family detached home in Vancouver...and NOT a mansion, either! We are talking a very basic house. ant something really nice? Then be prepared to spend almost a million or more!).

Same thing is happening all over the province. Even in areas that have never seen super high property prices before. And CERTAINLY didn't see any real rise during pretty much the whole of the NDP decade of the nineties. (more of a steady decline back then, really.)

You know, back in the nineties?...when the longest sustained boom in all of history was taking place? Everywhere, that is, except in NDP dominated BC?

Think about it...if it is all British Columbians who are driving this massive sustained surge in property prices (and car sales and practically everything else)...then SOMETHING must have changed for the better about three or four years ago. (some areas have seen a 100% increase in property values in less than two years!).

That would indicate that the local economy out here is doing rather well these days. To say the least.

But it is more likely that this upward surge in wealth is caused by both a combination of better fortunes locally...AND a massive influx of well-off refugees from the rest of Canada who are showing up around here in record numbers. People who are fed up with the crumbling infrastructure and bad weather (cold winters) and bugs and polloution back home. And, they are ALL bidding up property prices right now, using all of the money that they've made over the decades in every other part of this country to buy in to the bright western future, and better lifestyle. It shows no signs of stopping anytime soon, BTW.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

You forgot overseas immigration and low interest rates....

What a way to derail Mr MacNutt.... Get back on the subject....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt never did know the difference between wealth and soap suds .

Factories and infrastructure and a skilled workforce are built wealth - not speculative idiocy.

BC was quite happy to suck the Ontario tit for years. Time to cut the umbilical and keep the $12 billion overpayments for a few years to repair the infrastructure deficit left by poor management and ill conceived privatization schemes and tax cuts. 

I'd be quite happy to see energy windfall transfers from BC Alberta and NL - turn about is fair play.
At least we build it into enduring wealth here....time to cut back on the largesse and spend it on much needed infrastructure for Toronto and other Ontario needs.


----------



## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> You forgot overseas immigration and low interest rates....
> 
> What a way to derail Mr MacNutt.... Get back on the subject....


No...I just didn't mention overseas immigration to BC. But it is definietly a factor in our explosive growth.

As for low interest rates...what makes you think that they would have such a profound and startling effect out here? While places like Ontario...who have the same low interest rates...haven't seen all that much growth at all?

In fact, Ontario is publicly lamenting the fact that they are approaching "have-not" status in the very near future. At the same time, BC is going in the other direction.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

The housing market bubble is due to the low interest rates... It's pan-Canada and in the US...

Back to gas please.... (not the hot air)....


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Macnutt never did know the difference between wealth and soap suds .
> .


Soap suds is what you have in your rivers and streams, macdoc. Wealth is what we have here in BC.

Much of it YOURS!!

Ontarians with wealth derived in Ontario are moving out here in record numbers. read em and weep, old buddy!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Factories and infrastructure and a skilled workforce are built wealth - not speculative idiocy.
> 
> .


Factories and infrastructure and a skilled workforce can only function in a climate that allows them to operate while still making a profit. If that profit becomes very difficult or impossible to achieve, then the factories will be abandoned by the companies that built them and the worforce will decamp to a better area where they can find real work.

Does the formerly powerful manufacturing area of Detroit ring any bells here? It's right next to you, after all. the lessons from that devastated area should be rather clear to all. IF they are looking.

The aging provincial "infrastructure" in Ontario is crumbling by all accounts...due to serious negligence by successive provincial governments. The looming power shortages and the upcoming economic hit by the Kyoto Accord should be the last nails in the coffin. Rising taxes due to provincial governments who are not exactly on the ball...power outages...massive outmigration by the wealthier members of Onrtario society as they enter the retirement years...

This is what will send Ontario into a major decline.

Heck...it's already started.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> BC was quite happy to suck the Ontario tit for years. Time to cut the umbilical and keep the $12 billion overpayments for a few years to repair the infrastructure deficit left by poor management and ill conceived privatization schemes and tax cuts.


BC "sucked the Ontario tit" for about half a decade AFTER the goofball NDP took over this place. Before that, we were always a "Have" province.

Right now...we are on schedule to regain the status of "Have" province. (some reports say we are already there, actually).

Don't blame ME for the travesty that was our unfortunate experiment in left-of-center provincial government. I didn't vote for it! About two thirds of British Columbians didn't! In TWO elections, no less!

We have solved that particularly unfortunate situation. And are doing VERY well right now, thank you very much !

As for the "overpayments" by Ontario...THIS is what it MEANS to be a "Have" province in the Canadian Confederation!

SURPRISE!!

And...how can you POSSIBLY talk about cutting off those so-called "overpayments" while also talking about siezing the wealth of Alberta?

By your own flawed logic, Alberta has been making "overpayments" to all of the other provinces for DECADES!
 

Why should THEY be singled out for extra contributions...while failing Ontario is excused from their commitments?

_ESPECIALLY_ since it is Ontario that forces unwelcome and wasteful (and CORRUPT) federal governments onto all of the rest of us??!!??

Ones that we regularly reject. But have to live under. According to the rules of Confederation. 

You guys can't have it both ways. Much as you might like to...


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

By all accounts? Let's see, when was the last car assembly plant announced in BC? Ontario now builds more cars than Michigan. Toyota is opening a new plant. Honda is expanding. The big three arn't looking so hot (except Chrysler thanks to their fugly brick cars). But overall, manufacturing in Ontario is very healthy. Not much evidence of brain-drain either. In fact, its the reverse in Ontario. But let's not get into a pissing match. BC is a nice place and so are the other provinces.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

usedtobejwoodget, now don't go confusing MacNutt with facts...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

used to be jwoodget said:


> By all accounts? Let's see, when was the last car assembly plant announced in BC? Ontario now builds more cars than Michigan. Toyota is opening a new plant. Honda is expanding. The big three arn't looking so hot (except Chrysler thanks to their fugly brick cars). But overall, manufacturing in Ontario is very healthy. Not much evidence of brain-drain either. In fact, its the reverse in Ontario. But let's not get into a pissing match. BC is a nice place and so are the other provinces.


BC is not a logical place for car factories. For a lot of reasons.

But Alberta IS!

And there are...magically..."no car factories in Alberta" (might this be because of artificial Canadian interprovincial trade regulations? Ones that will be swept away in the very near future by world events?)
 

Alberta has NO car factories right now...

Despite the fact that they have cheap land and a great transportation infrastructure and cheap plentiful energy and super low taxes...both for the business owners AND for the workers.

And DESPITE the fact that they have a rapidly growing young and willing workforce that is not particularly addicted to unions.

And DESPITE the fact that much of the "manufacturing" that goes on in the automotive sector in Canada is actually simple assembly of parts made in Asia.

Parts made in Asia that must pass THROUGH Alberta, on their way to Ontario. They get to Alberta about a day or three soooner...and a LOT cheaper, than to Ontario, BTW.

Unless, of course, the rapidly rising costs of transportation these days might have escaped some people here at ehmac. Not to mention any names or anything... 

Hmmm...let's see now...

Cheap labour. Young and willing labour force, pouring in from all corners of this nation. Almost NO unions to shut everything down and jack costs up. Low taxes. Abundant energy. Low cost of living. Lower transportation costs from the suppliers of the parts. land that is abundant and lower cost than almost anywhere else in the nation. Flat land that is perfect for car assembly plants. 

Given all of that...do you REALLY think that Ontario's auto manufacturing sector is never going to shrink? Or vanish, entirely?

Ummm...once again...you might want to look at Detroit. Just a few miles away, before you get too tied up in this mindset.

Might be an eye-opener for ya!  

Trust me on this.


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Am I in the right thread? Did I read the title of the thread incorrectly?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacGYVER said:


> Am I in the right thread? Did I read the title of the thread incorrectly?


It is about Gas - MacNutt is full of hot air again and did a great job of derailed another thread...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Here in Canada...gasoline is heavily taxed. This is NOT up for discussion.

In fact...gasoline in Canada is subject to "tax on tax". This, also, is NOT up for discussion. It is simple fact.

These Liberal derived taxes MUST be reduced. Again, this is NOT up for discussion..

What IS "up for discussion" is the results of these artficial Liberal-derived Canadian taxes on transportation of manufactured goods and the parts that they are assembled from... and the long term effects of higher transport costs on this assembly industry.

Especially in sainted Ontario. The place that currently decides who will RUN this country.

And...just for the record...I didn't bring up the obvious dichotomy in cross-Canada freight rates, or the artificial concentration of car plants in southern Ontario that exists right now.

But I DID note how that same artificial concentration of US manufacturing capacity came to a sudden end, in neighboring Detoit. And for some of the very SAME reasons, too!

And I sure hope some of the smog heads were listening out there. Because it "is coming to a city near YOU!"

Rather soon, I'd suspect. Like it or not.

Trust me on this.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacNutt said:


> BC is not a logical place for car factories. For a lot of reasons.
> 
> But Alberta IS!
> 
> ...


You are correct on most accounts. Alberta has cheap land, great transportation infrastructure, a young and hardworking workforce, good tax rates and few labour unions to destroy companies.

The biggest problem Alberta faces is a labour shortage. Effectively, there is no such thing as minimum wage in Alberta because nobody will work for it. I was reading the Red Deer paper this past weekend and the help wanted ads go on forever. 

I wouldn't sell BC short too quickly with automotive manufacturing. Kelowna is doing alright with truck and aircraft manufacturing and this is in the absence of federal government corporate welfare (e.g. Bombardier). BC is closer to the Asian market as well. I would like to see our economy diversified a bit more.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You never had understood the difference between windfall wealth and sustainable Macnutt - you still think high land prices are a good thing. Too many tequilas = many lost brain cells.

Labour shortage in Alberta - same reason why Calgary is barely on the radar for immigrants.......fancy that .

BC should have an excellent future of mixed manufacturing and resource with it's progressive approach on immigration, strong tourism appeal and strong north south and cross Pacific links - It just needs some growth as there is some density benefits.......and a Bill Davis in office.

Ontario needs to rework it's tools just as any sustainable factory does and that means no largesse for a while......'bout time.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> you still think high land prices are a good thing. Too many tequilas = many lost brain cells.


Do you have a better system of determining land prices than market forces?

MacNutt isn't advocating high prices, he is simply proving his point that BC has done a 180 degree turn after getting rid of a left wing government that tried to control market forces to implement their social agenda.

We will never know the final price BC paid for that poor government. While the rest of the west coast of North America boomed, BC lagged everybody but should have benefited more from the tech boom.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yes - putting brakes on speculation as Europe has and leases of land by communities are another approach.
Locked land values are an anethema - just take a look at Japan.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Yes - putting brakes on speculation as Europe has and leases of land by communities are another approach.
> Locked land values are an anethema - just take a look at Japan.


What evidence do you have of speculation in the Canadian market?

How do you know what the correct price of real estate should be?

Your proposal sounds like a veiled attempt at communism.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Yes - putting brakes on speculation as Europe has and leases of land by communities are another approach.
> Locked land values are an anethema - just take a look at Japan.


Hmmm...sounds like macdoc is running out of "GAS" on this particular thread.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacNutt said:


> Hmmm...sounds like macdoc is running out of "GAS" on this particular thread.


But you are still full of hot air, aren't you?


----------



## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> You never had understood the difference between windfall wealth and sustainable Macnutt - you still think high land prices are a good thing. Too many tequilas = many lost brain cells.
> 
> Labour shortage in Alberta - same reason why Calgary is barely on the radar for immigrants.......fancy that .
> 
> ...


"Windfall wealth" suddenly appeared here in BC once we uncerimoniously dumped the failed NDP. Much of it is coming from displaced Ontarians who are fed up with the problems back home. 

High taxes, a crumbling infrastructure, power shortages (with no relief in sight), high costs, a dismal provincial government with no vision for the future, polloution that is at record levels, bugs, bad weather, labour problems, constant gun violence in the downtown areas, deep snow and freezing weather in the long winters...did I mention the bugs? Or the smog?

And then there is the looming threat of the Kyoto Accords. This should effectively drive the very last nail in the coffin for Ontario's manufacturing sector. 

Ontario won't be able to "rework it's tools" as long as McGuinty and his navel-gazing Liberals are still in office. You guys will just keep making laps around that drainhole in the bottom of the big white bowl as long as that minor leaguer is sitting in Queens Park, twiddling his thumbs while Rome burns.

BC has an excellent future right now. And getting brighter every single day. Much of that is at the expense of failing Ontario fortunes. Watch for this trend to continue. It certainly shows no signs of letting up now that we have flushed OUR particulat set of thumb-twiddling idiots out of the provincial legislature (Read: BC NDP).

"Labour shortage in Alberta?"

Get real. There are DROVES of people flocking to Alberta every single day looking for work. Many of them from Ontario. And that will turn into a flood tide once the first auto assembly plants open up in that low tax low cost well run province.  

Shouldn't be long now...

Don't believe me? Think it would "NEVER HAPPEN"?

Just look at Detroit.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Typical right wing nonsense - brand it as communist if it threatens your pet worldview.
Laissez faire dreams of regressives . ....the world has moved on.

Good franchisors like Tim Horton's know that "market forces" are a disaster. There is NO speculation in a Tim's and that's one MAJOR factor in their success.

I just love this mindless "trust the market" bull****..... Dated dogma from the early 1900s. 
Modern economies and nations control an enormous number of underlying resources - a certain "stumpage" issue comes to mind.

It's hilarious watching the NeoCons trying to deal with "market forces" in petroleum. Why one of the Albertans here called for "price controls". 



> *Soaring gas prices sparking calls for regulation*
> 
> By Kevin G. Hall | Knight Ridder Newspapers
> August 28, 2005
> ...


in a nutshell



> "It's very clear to us that gas prices need to be regulated. We really need to step back and recognize that like electricity, gasoline is too vital to the economy to be left in the hands of these corporations that have been gouging us," said Doug Heller, the executive director of the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights in Los Angeles, a consumer-advocacy group.
> 
> The Service Station Dealers of America agree, saying wholesalers are limiting competition and thus pushing prices higher.
> 
> "Fuel is basically a commodity, almost something that should be regulated by the public-services commissions, because there is no other product out there that so many consumers depend on," said Paul Fiore, the group's executive vice president.


the same underlying problem exists with land. By all means build factories and buildings and schools and parks - those are wealth - value locked in dirt brings a huge price to pay by society. 



> Holding land as investment property and a way to accumulate wealth is actually maladaptive to a market economy. *This tenure approach has been identified as a primary cause of the maldistribution of wealth problem which is rampant in capitalist systems. Land can not respond to supply and demand dynamics.* There can be increasing demand for land but there is never a corresponding increase of supply as the supply of land was determined aeons ago by whatever unfathomable forces of the universe created it.


http://www.s-o-l.org/lndfrpl.htm

There is a huge difference between the progressive wealth building of a factory, or university or opera house or factory or home and the destructive nature of land value lock in and speculation.

But market worshipper naifs wouldn't understand that.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Typical right wing nonsense -
> 
> There is a huge difference between the progressive wealth building of a factory, or university or opera house or factory or home and the destructive nature of land value lock in and speculation.
> 
> But market worshipper naifs wouldn't understand that.


I'll bet that it won't be called "right wing nonsense" when the owners of said factories in Ontario begin to look at the actual costs of remaining there...as opposed to decamping and moving their manufacturing facilities to a sunnier (and less costly) clime. An area that has radically lower costs for everything, a younger less unionised workforce (much of it from Ontario, BTW), cheaper land, almost NO taxes...and is far less likely to be subject to punitive extra costs from the Kyoto Accord.

The best health care and social programs, at the lowest cost in ALL of Canada, will probably just be icing on the cake.

Macdoc...factories are built every single day. And LOTS of them have been abandoned and allowed to fall into decay when their owners decide to move on to some place that is more business friendly.

Generally...the workers follow. Or new ones show up.

Simple as that.


Again...look to Detroit. You might even be able to see the rusting and abandoned factories from where you live....


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Or not. 

Your choice.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

If BC has so much wealth, why do we now need equalization payments?

<blockquote>Equalization is the Government of Canada's most important program for reducing fiscal disparities among provinces. Equalization payments enable less prosperous provincial governments to provide their residents with public services that are reasonably comparable to those in other provinces, at reasonably comparable levels of taxation.</blockquote>

The total we were entitled to between 1993-94 and 1999-2000 was $125 Million. The total we've been entitled to since 2000-01 is in excess of 1.9 Billion. 2000-01 being the period that the BC LIberals took over. 

All this, and teh province doesn't forgive student loans anymore. All this, and the province has sold or contracted out almost all the services they used to own and operate (and a lot of them to south of the border). 

I'm not denying that the NDP were a bunch of wankers, I'm just saying I'm not sure why I should prefer the current bunch of wankers.

And on an actually related note, why should gas taxes be reduced? If they (and thus gas prices) remain high, it will likely help serve to encourage people not to purchase fat assed gas guzzling SUVs that no one really needs, and perhaps look at more efficient vehicles.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

PosterBoy said:


> If they (and thus gas prices) remain high, it will likely help serve to encourage people not to purchase fat assed gas guzzling SUVs that no one really needs, and perhaps look at more efficient vehicles.


I like how SUVs are always targeted when they are bigger and sources that pollute more  
Maybe because they are a visible target....
FYI some people need SUVs....


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

PosterBoy said:


> And on an actually related note, why should gas taxes be reduced? If they (and thus gas prices) remain high, it will likely help serve to encourage people not to purchase fat assed gas guzzling SUVs that no one really needs, and perhaps look at more efficient vehicles.


PB Once upon a time a few years back New Brunswick reduced gas taxes and low and behold what next happened? Why Irving Oil put up their prices up that reflected the price before the tax reduction. That oil company claimed the saving to the consumer. An investigative reporter looked in to it and it seems to me that marketing had a lot to do with the price.

A reporter named Robert Jones showed prices at the Irving Service Station at the door of the refinery were higher than in the state of Maine and Nova Scotia. The prices were leveled with taxes off and exchange accounted for. The logical assumption would be transportation cost would drive the prices higher further away from the refinery. 

The reporter's conclusion as I recall was marketing determined what we as the public are willing to stand for in terms of pricing.

On another note regarding fuel consumption. For the last few months I have been driving the highways and by-ways of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia and since the price of fuel has risen few vehicles have slowed down to conserve fuel. 

Mainly RV operators seemed to travel at 90 kmh. Most Cars trucks and SUVs are doing the usual 10 to 20 kmh in excess of the posted speed limit. Some are even driving faster of course. 

I don't think the price of fuel is high enough to prompt conservation as yet. Just high enough to make us wimper and whine.  but true


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL, I think we need to conserve NOW and not wait for the price of gas to go up any higher.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I got a lift back from my Toyota dealership this morning in a Toyota Avalon, fully loaded. I asked the owner of the car what his gas milage was, and he replied "When I pay over $60,000 for a car, I don't care what the gas milage is."


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> BigDL, I think we need to conserve NOW and not wait for the price of gas to go up any higher.


Right you are good sir! I haven't any rebuttal.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

See the post just after I made that comment. Sadly, I know of a few people with expensive cars, or gas guzzlers, who don't care what the price of gas might be for them or anyone else. Some are not all that wealthy, but would rather put their money into cars than anything else.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> See the post just after I made that comment. Sadly, I know of a few people with expensive cars, or gas guzzlers, who don't care what the price of gas might be for them or anyone else. Some are not all that wealthy, but would rather put their money into cars than anything else.


I find it a little hypocritical that we judge people who drive SUVs.
You target SUVs but a whole range of cars get bad mileage. Mini-Vans, sports cars...
Look at what _you_ contribute to the pollution levels first, see what _you_ can do to reduce those amounts and don't judge your neighbour....


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> FYI some people need SUVs....


I never meant to imply that SUVs don't have their place. Some people need SUVs, it's true. But few in the city do. And fewer still need a Ford Expedition or Excursion. I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone needs and SUV that big. Someone in need of a vehicle that big would likely be better served by a pickup or a van.



Dr. G said:


> I think we need to conserve NOW and not wait for the price of gas to go up any higher.


Indeed.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> I find it a little hypocritical that we judge people who drive SUVs.


I'm more referring to the folks that drive them needlessly.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

AS, I totally agree with your statement that "Look at what you contribute to the pollution levels first, see what you can do to reduce those amounts and don't judge your neighbour...." I did not want to come across as someone who blasts SUV owners, so I am sorry if it came across that way. I do find SUVs as wasting gas, in that they carry around a lot of weight and power for some drivers who don't really need this space and power. I know that it would be wasted on me.

I try to keep under 5000km a year with my driving, but I did not do this with this Toyota Echo because my son is also driving. I am big on conservation, and people are amazed (although I am shocked) at how little heating oil and electricity we use each winter. I am amazed at how expensive some homes are to heat. We have gotten used to our house being 15-18C in the winter time. Still, I find is wiser to put on sweaters and hold a doxie on your lap than to heat up a whole house to 20C+.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Wake me up when Toyota/Honda/GM/Ford/Chrysler-Mercedes relocate to Alberta..... zzzzzz


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Jim, wake up, the Alberta surplus is nearly $3 billion.....and counting. Hopefully, some money shall flow into their educational system. We shall see.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

*The SUV or what ever is not the problem it is the massive engines*

I for one believe that is the reason for the "picking on" of the SUV. In most applications people are buying wasteful fuel guzzlers that are impractical for the application and the situation that these vehicles are most often used.

The SUV or van or what ever is not my issue. It is the engine displacement. 

Trucks, SUVs, cars could be engineered with transmissions that can take a small amount of horse power and haul a heavy load up to highway speed. Small diesel engines with turbo chargers would work very well in the snow and could haul the loads. 

It would have poor quarter mile / 0 to 60 times. Drivers would have to "work" for their speeds but the vehicles would have higher fuel economy numbers.

Now the question is who would buy these vehicles?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I need an SUV to haul my two surf boards and five dogs...............and to haul my ATV and SeaDoo............and to haul my SkiDoo and ski rack in the winter time..... or, I could conserve my time, energy and money.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Typical right wing nonsense - brand it as communist if it threatens your pet worldview.
> Laissez faire dreams of regressives . ....the world has moved on.


It seems you are suggesting that I have diverted the discussion by bringing up communism. Actually, I asked you two basic questions and you haven't provided an answer. It seems to me that your proposal is fairly communistic, don't you think? 



MacDoc said:


> Good franchisors like Tim Horton's know that "market forces" are a disaster. There is NO speculation in a Tim's and that's one MAJOR factor in their success.


Good franchisors, like Tim Hortons, make their profits from market forces. They speculate all the time by introducing new products. They are planning to open (or may already have) stores in the US. Many Canadian chains (e.g. Canadian Tire) have failed in the US. Would that not be a risk? Is opening multiple TH in a small town a speculative risk? Of course, but its a calculated risk.



MacDoc said:


> I just love this mindless "trust the market" bull****..... Dated dogma from the early 1900s.


It's done our society quite well. I can either trust the market, or trust some article you quote from a person with no economics degree (that I can see) and is posting an article from some marginal group. I would suggest you quote some better sources if you want to present a convincing argument.



MacDoc said:


> There is a huge difference between the progressive wealth building of a factory, or university or opera house or factory or home and the destructive nature of land value lock in and speculation.
> 
> But market worshipper naifs wouldn't understand that.


Why is speculation destructive? What do you mean by land value lock in?


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You really DON"T get it. 
Tim's actively prevents speculation in it's franchises. Period full stop.
You seem to think it's all or nothing Communism or "free market uber alle".... a common NeoCon failure. Laissez faire is long gone.

One of the roles of governments is to damp or eliminate destructive actitivities balancing that against encouraging innovation and real wealth creation. Mineral rights, fishing stocks, logging rights, water management the list is very long of managed resources.
Raw land is another resource and to SOME degree is regulated through zoning.
There is a difference between two developers building competing apartments - if one bulds a better accommodation they can charge more and people will pay.
That's market force that is productive.

Speculation on land that prevents effective use of the resource ie pricing farmers off their land is what progressive communities and governments seek to do while encouraging creative building development.

Locked in land values simply means vested interests such as pension funds, city tax bases, real estate agents, insurnace companies are really NOT interested in a tre fluctuating market but rather one that generally only goes up so their income tracks with it.

You don't need to look far to see the destructive nature - just understand what happened to Japan.
Take your dated, antiquated cold war terms and stick em where the sun don't shine. The world has moved on.

Leasing has it's own set of issues but it also has advantages and IS a viable alternative.

Here is a study of two cities that undertook that.
Modern communities are still working out the best mix of market and public ownership for sustainable cities.



> Myths and Realities of Public Land Leasing: Canberra and Hong Kong
> 
> Author(s): Hong, Yu-Hung
> 
> ...


the rest of the article here http://www.lincolninst.edu/pubs/pub-detail.asp?id=363

Hong Kong is a terrific case in point with a widl west business climate and highly controlled property market since colonial times.



> Nothin' ain't free
> Hong Kong, as the Heritage folks trumpet, boasts minimal government regulation of business. That isn't the same as a free market, though. Lack of regulation has fostered cartels that control the most profitable niches of Hong Kong's economy with a wink from the government.
> 
> In property, the root of most Hong Kong fortunes, the government calls the tune, as it has since colonial times. The government owns the land, controls the market in it (and, contrary to the old saying "buy land - God ain't making any more of it", decides when to make more land through reclamation), and evaluates development plans case-by-case, rather than following set regulations. Whatever you think of the system - which has produced a soaring skyline and stratospheric property prices - there's no invisible hand or level playing field characteristic of free markets


There are numerous routes to successful vibrant sustainable communities - one of the surest ways to destroy the structure is unrestrained speculation and rise in land value.
Communities are still engaged in working out a method of dealing with it.

As planning and energy efficiency and density control become more critical to communities this the trend to control speculative activity will only grow stronger.....

Look for growth in use of eminent domain by communities undertaking rational planning and in particular in the area of increasing density. It's coming.....it's in play - sorry to puncture your wishful thinking about "market forces".

Napoleon just told his generals to raze the houses in the way of his grand boulevards. It's a bit gentler these days but no less inevitable.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> You really DON"T get it.
> Tim's actively prevents speculation in it's franchises. Period full stop.
> You seem to think it's all or nothing..... a common NeoCon failure. Laissez faire is long gone.


Obviously they prevent their franchises from being different from one another. I meant the organization of Tim Horton's actively speculates.



MacDoc said:


> Speculation on land that prevents effective use of the resource ie pricing farmers off their land is what progressive communities and governments seek to do while encouraging creative building development.


Nobody is forcing a farmer to sell their land, except perhaps inheritance taxes.



MacDoc said:


> You don't need to look far to see the destructive nature - just understand what happened to Japan.
> Take your dated, antiquated cold war terms and stick em where the sun don't shine. The world has moved on..


What cold war terms are you talking about? Free market?

How does a real estate crash in one market justify your proposed approach? That seems to be faulty logic on your part. 




MacDoc said:


> There are numerous routes to successful vibrant sustainable communities - one of the surest ways to destroy the structure is unrestrained speculation and rise in land value.


Again, define speculation to me. What evidence do you have that it is happening anywhere in Canada?


RE - Freehold leasing. Interesting and ironic that you would bring that up as an example of a system that works. Look into what happened in the UK. My father spent three years of his life fighting that system and won. He had the laws changed in England after creating a coalition of people to fight the leasehold system. The successor organization to what he founded is: http://www.carl.org.uk/


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You realllllllly don't get it.

YOU CANNOT SELL A TIM'S FRANCHISE FOR 1¢ MORE THAN YOU PAID FOR IT. 
Tim's understands the dangers. You don't.

••

Communism as a social/economic model is not a first world issue at the moment - creating an effective mixed economy with social and market aspects IS.

••
Farmers like other business people like to expand their holdings and perhaps bring another farm into the family - it's one reason farm land is zoned insuch a way as to keep it intact.......a minor form of land use control.

•••
I'm not going to try and educate you in the perils of boom and bust cycles or the dangers of bubbles - just get yourself a subscription to the Economist. You are way behind the understanding curve.
The US housing bubble is an incredible threat to the world economy let alone the US economy. It's a hollow shell that will either

Collapse putting many of the 40% of US jobs based on the housing industry at risk
Fuel inflation as incomes try and catch up - the loose monetary policy is coming to an end.

The concept of moderating markets is hardly new - the Fed has been at it for decades and cities do it as well with rent controls.

As Tim's understands there is long term benefits in creating a consistent valuation platform upon which individuals can make their mark.
So too with communities.



> Rent control also smoothes out fluctuations in the rental market. Limits on rent increases prevent displacement that might result under volatile economic conditions. Nash and Skaburskis (1998) compared rent levels in Toronto, which has rent control, with Vancouver, BC, which is uncontrolled. Over the long term, rents in the two cities were similar. The authors found that rent control stabilized rents and smoothed the fluctuations in Toronto's rental market. Furthermore, rent control reduces uncertainty about future rent increases.


Cities and governments continue to strive for formulas that provide a stable underlying platform for growth while not stifling wealth building.

Land speculation is NOT wealth building....it's community destroying.

THIS is a model of public and private cooperation leading to a vibrant community - speculators begone. Free market be damned.....PLANNING and EXECUTION required.



> *Learning from St. Lawrence*
> 
> Prepared by Queen's University School of Urban and Regional Planning
> 
> ...


http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/faculti...01/CEDRO/cedro/cip_acupp_css/st_lawrence.html


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> You realllllllly don't get it.
> 
> -YOU CANNOT SELL A TIM'S FRANCHISE FOR 1¢ MORE THAN YOU PAID FOR IT.
> Tim's understands the dangers. You don't.
> ...


In short, macdoc...

You have shown some smallish and rather grudging nods towards the market forces that are driving this world we currently live in.

But you haven't really got a handle on the big picture yet. You are still clinging to a failed socialistic model from way back in the idealistic sixties, fer GOSH SAKES!

Time to wake up and smell the coffee. This is the twenty-first century, after all.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I was making it a concious decision to see how many SUV/ Vans etc there were on the road on my way to work. It seems, at least from what I saw that more then half were SUV's etc. I can certinaly understand that people up North, or in remote areas need trucks etc. Mind you the polution levels are much lower then in the city and good luck getting out of 6 foot snow in with a car. Geeze man I paid $1.19 this morning in the GTA. They said it had to do with the hurrican and that they were stopping production. I think i'll start getting up at 3am to bike to work. Maybe I will get there by 8  I feel sorry for people that are hardly getting by as it is.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Clockwork, I'm with you. I don't mind letting my car sit in the driveway and either walk to work, or walk to stores, rather than use up gas needlessly.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> Clockwork, I'm with you. I don't mind letting my car sit in the driveway and either walk to work, or walk to stores, rather than use up gas needlessly.


Not all of us can. 
Some people are being hit hard by the gas prices.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

AS, sad, but true. All the more reason to consider gas-efficient cars, driving techniques, and car-pooling. I am lucky in this sense, in that where I live in St.John's is central to where I work, where I shop and near parks and trails for calming walks and hikes.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

MY associate is involved with the IPO of the "Feel Good Cars"

http://www.feelgoodcars.com/features/features_index.html










Their timing could hardly be better. 
I was chatting with him and said that many people would opt for it if the cost was in the $150 per month range to own or $99 per month to lease and he said that was their hope as well.

••••

And as usual Macnutt you are wrong - you can only sell a Timmy's back to the company for what you paid for it.
They understand - you patently don't.
It similiar to the reason why shipping lanes are not for sale or subject to market forces either.
You fail to understand what "mixed" means....as ever. Market forces AND communal forces exist in modern societies in a dynamic and changing balance. Did you actually read about Hong Kong land structure or are the tequila fumes making your eyes water.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I have to drive about an hour and a half each way to work. If there was an alternative other then the train or the bus I would do it. Buses and trains make me a little anxious because I dont like crowds.


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

The girlfriend and I recently bought a house together. It's a little more expensive then where we previously lived but the location is what reall sold it for me. It's near our work, several grocery stores, a mall, the video stores, bars, a theatre, and recreation facilites. We walk to work and pick up groceries as we need them on the way home. With the appropriate clothing it would be easy to walk to work even on rainy days and snowy days in the winter.

We're very happy with our choice. The nearby gas station just shows prices going up and up and up.


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

Rememeber when families only had one car and when people car pooled to work to save money. It's going to and needs to happen again.

Operating multiple vehicles and driving alone is no longer affordable (I highly doubt it ever was).


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

I see that prices are hitting close to $1.20 per liter in Toronto this morning.  
 

Still $1.15.6 in Sin Jons this morning. We are expecting a hike, though.

In NL, diesel is almost 10 cents per litre more than gas. Why? I know we have lower demand, is this the "free market" again?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

ErnstNL, I expect that this price shall go up a dime by tonight or tomorrow morning. We shall see.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

To paraphrase Will Smith (fresh prince bel air); "Macnutt just don't understand."


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

It's crazy to think that a year ago or something like that anything over .60 was high.  Not surprised now that the Americans own or have a hand in most of the oil


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Clockwork, when I owned a small Honda 150cc motorcycle, the price of gas was 30 cents US a gallon.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

Thats funny, sad actualy. Wow they are expecting gas to ridse to $4 a gallon. We should probably go back to the horse and buggy days  On the flip side it may force many people to drive small cars. My parents have a GMC something or another van and my bro told me it costs about $100 to fill it. That was when the gas was 99 cents. 

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/gas_prices/index.htm?cnn=yes


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Clockwork, just imagine what the cost of heating oil shall be this winter. My neighbors usually think I am excentric as I go about collecting small branches from the trees that have been blown down by our heavy winds. I store these in the garage and use them a year or so later for firewood. I have been able to heat most of my house with a small woodstove and collected firewood one weekend when an ice storm knocked out the electricity for 40+ hours.


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## Mike Y (Nov 9, 2003)

Go and buy a scooter/motorcycle. Maybe not the solution for rainy days or for those who commute via the 401/other expressways.

And when people make fun of you for driving a little scooter then explain how much less you spend on petrol!


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

Umm...what about the winter? I don't think a scooter would be that great for a whole half of the year. I would drive a scooter except for the winter thing... Same with bikes (you can ride in the winter, but it kind of sucks) but I live in the middle of nowhere.

I'm dying. Gas is taking all my money. This sucks. I wish I didn't need a car, but its the only way to get to work, which I need to do to have money. Cars are for rich people, and it sucks for people who absolutely need them to go to work/school/whatever.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

We don't drive much, so money for gas is really not a major factor in our budget. However, we do heat part of our house with heating oil. I am able to take a cool house during the day, so since I work at home, I turn down the heat to 15C, so the furnace does not cut in very often. This is where I foresee a large part of our budget going to this winter as a result of higher energy costs. We budget $50 a month for gas, and that is plenty, but I can't even guess what heating oil shall cost comes December. We shall see.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I filled up this morning in St. Albert at 97.9/liter.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

Must be nice to live in Alberta today  Mind you I would like to visit Alberta one day.


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

Ther girlfriend fill up the car today and the home oil tank yesterday. The price of gas in Newfoundland should go up by 10 -15 ¢ tomorrow. Our gas prices are regulated somewhat.

Diesel today is $1.15 while gas is around $1.18. The reason they are so close right now is because the price of the different fuels are regulated to have a price change on different days.


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## Mike Y (Nov 9, 2003)

CN said:
 

> Umm...what about the winter? I don't think a scooter would be that great for a whole half of the year. I would drive a scooter except for the winter thing... Same with bikes (you can ride in the winter, but it kind of sucks) but I live in the middle of nowhere.


I did not mean to say that scooter/motorcylce was a complete solution. 

Consider this: If you drove a $2000 scooter to work/store/short distances in the spring to fall (about 6 months of the year or 180 days) minus rainy/windy/crappy days then I can guarantee you that you would save money over a few years (maybe even in the first year). But this may not be practical for the expressway commuter. 

Most cars are under 35 mpg for gas consumption. Why not buy a scooter that gets closer to 100 mpg?

Don't get me wrong... I understand a lot of people need a car. But why not buy a scooter for those quick trips to the store for milk and bread? And then use your car for rainy days and the 401.

But then again I understand when people say they are scared of getting hit by a car, SUV, truck, or anything for that matter.

I do not even own a car. I am a student and so I pay the fuel surcharges on the buses and Via Rail.


Just my two cents...


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

Sorry if I came off as being a little rough on you, Mike Y. Maybe I'm still upset over having to buy gas at $1.14/L (I think I practically coasted into the gas station, I had so little gas left...it is super expensive everywhere, all the time it seems---you wait for it to get cheaper, but it doesn't happen ). I definitely do agree that for a portion of the year (dependant upon where you live) a scooter would be great for many people. Although they would have to justify the cost of the extra upkeep etc. (I wonder if my car would start again if I left it for 6 months...) I think they're fun and neat, too (did you see that Vespa in the classifieds...wow, that thing looked cool!).


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

A vespa would definately be the way to go. I would definately love one, or any two wheeled vehicle for that matter.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

My sources in the newsrooms of the city's two dailies tell me gas prices will jump by 28c per liter in Edmonton tomorrow. Ridiculous!


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Whats the cost of gas out there Sinc?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

It was 97.9 this morning when I filled up.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Just think of all the Tim Horton's that will fold, no one will be able to afford to WAIT in the drive through for 15 minutes any more.  

Good time to buy into Black and Decker, all the coffee makers will be flying off the shelves this weekend and everyone will have to learn how to make their own coffee.
hehe.


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## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)




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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Gas was a buck 25 here in waterloo today! :O


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

RicktheChemist said:


> 135.4 at Esso station on the way home here in Montreal, Qc.. what do I win?
> 
> RtC


The "I'll have to eat Kraft dinner for a lot of meals" award....
So what is the difference between gauging and profiteering again ?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

1.02 in Mississauga. Staff got lucky and hit 94.9 last night. Last car before it jumped to 1.15


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"So what is the difference between gauging and profiteering again?" No way of really knowing, in that the price soars suddenly on the hint or actual rise in a price of oil that will become gasoline a month or so (or more) after the oil is bought. However, when (remember those days) the price of oil goes down, it takes weeks for this to "come through the pipeline".


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> "So what is the difference between gauging and profiteering again?" No way of really knowing, in that the price soars suddenly on the hint or actual rise in a price of oil that will become gasoline a month or so (or more) after the oil is bought. However, when (remember those days) the price of oil goes down, it takes weeks for this to "come through the pipeline".


Well, this has been studied to death by all sorts of governments before. Every time, they conclude there is no evidence of collusion. 

It's quite easy for two companies to collude, but adding a third is extremely difficult and too much effort for each company to monitor. As you add more and more companies, it becomes even more impossible. 

Go speak to an economics prof. at your university and he can explain it better than I can.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm sure if we all used *biodiesel* they would find a way to "gauge" [Dr. G. intended "gouge" no doubt] us for that.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Vandave, re your notion of "collusion", I always find it difficult to understand why ALL of the major outlets for gas have exactly the same price. Surely there must be some difference in their production cost schedule.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

I wonder when we will start to see prices over $2.00/L?!?!?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I still think that the price of gas shall ease as the production is converted to winter heating oil. Those prices will skyrocket this winter.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> Vandave, re your notion of "collusion", I always find it difficult to understand why ALL of the major outlets for gas have exactly the same price. Surely there must be some difference in their production cost schedule.


Gasoline is a commodity. Commodities always trade at the market rate. If a station kiddy corner offers gas for less, everybody goes there. 

I am not sure what you mean by production cost schedule.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

http://www.gasolineboycottday.org/


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Vandave, try running an Esso, or some major name in the gas station business, and then try to lower your price to attract customers. See how long you are allowed to do this in a city with other major distributors. The owner of one of the local Esso stations was forced out of business by Exxon because he refused to "toe the line". Thus, we are lead to believe that it just happens by coincidence that EVERY gas station changes their rates within a city at about the same time to exactly the same price.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

andrewenterprise said:


> I wonder when we will start to see prices over $2.00/L?!?!?


Probably won't be very long. Remember though that the $4 figure in this article is _per U.S. gallon_. I too heard that gas hit about $1.35/litre at some stations in the MTL area today -- which works out to about *$5.11* per U.S. gallon.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Doug, that is higher than here in St.John's, and we have some of the highest prices of major Canadian cities in Canada.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

i know someone who used to own an esso station, an he explained the pricing this way: the station across the street lowers their price by 5 cents. he calls the esso head office, the ultimate authority in what price *he* - the station owner - can charge *his* customers. he asks them for permission to lower his price to match or beat the other station. he waits half an hour or more for the approval. sometime he gets it, sometime he doesn't.

mostly for that reason, he doesn't own an esso station anymore.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Miguel, that is the same sort of story I heard. You raise the price when told, and for the set amount, and you lower the price ONLY when told, and for a set amount. Violate this regulation and you shall have your franchise taken away from you.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Ouch! Highly illegal. Somebody needs to sue!


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

$1.26 in the gta. Oil companies are gouging us. The minister of something or another said that the oil company is a monopoly and they can do as they choose. At least the Gov is trying to force them to lower prices. At least that's what they tell us  What they tell us and what they do are usualy two different things. booo


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## funkdoobi (Dec 21, 2004)

although you may encounter wierdos, and smelly people on the TTC, i'll stick with them for transportation for now


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)




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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Doug, isn't that the guy from "Just For Laughs Gags" putting up that sign?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

It was 1.15 here in St.John's last night. It should be interesting to see what it is this morning.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I have the day off and I filled up yesterday at 97.9. Yesterday afternoon there were very long lines at every gas station in town waiting to fill up before the price jump predicted for today. I will venture out and report back on the new price this morning.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

I drove by this last night around 12.30, and it read 99.9¢. 'Round 1.20 AM, when driving home, my gas station was having a 'roid rage! All it took was less than 1hr. By the way, this is in Queen West right near Trinity Park. 



Happy to be driving 1.6L car. 

H!


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

1.349 regular here
1.499 super

Winter is going to be expensive...


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

wow... was wondering what is was like in PQ. 

H!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Filled up my wife's car at 1.13 a liter. This was outside of St. John's, where it is 1.15 a liter within the city limits.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

I'm just glad that I have unlimited 24 hr transferrable travel in the GTA thanks to
my new Metro Pass, Although...I just got my layoff notice after I bought it, I'll be
layed off Sept 14th, Oh well  ... I'll still have my Metro Pass.
Maybe I'll take off on photo shoot safari's as far as the transit will take me.


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

dolawren said:


> I'm just glad that I have unlimited 24 hr transferrable travel in the GTA thanks to
> my new Metro Pass, Although...I just got my layoff notice after I bought it, I'll be
> layed off Sept 14th, Oh well  ... I'll still have my Metro Pass.
> Maybe I'll take off on photo shoot safari's as far as the transit will take me.


Good luck on your job search.  
It happened to me earlier this summer and I am still looking.
Hang on.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

DP004 said:


> Good luck on your job search.
> It happened to me earlier this summer and I am still looking.
> Hang on.


I was trying to kick disability...Looks like I'll have to go back to the life of being
an untouchable for yet another year before I'll have enough employed hours to
be a normal human to collect unemployment insurance. (I only have 680 hrs, I
need about 920 hrs of employment to get unemployment benefits)

Politic's is fun...But it's also a waste of your money.
Just ask Mike Harris...Mike...Mike...Sorry he's busy at the bar.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Gas here this afternoon is $1.095, apparently not bad by other rates across the country.

The gouging continues.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sinc, I would use the "g" word (i.e., "gouging") very carfully and quietly. As my wife oftentimes says, "Don't wake up the monster that was the NEP."


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dr.G. said:


> Sinc, I would use the "g" word (i.e., "gouging") very carfully and quietly. As my wife oftentimes says, "Don't wake up the monster that was the NEP."


Dr. G., I was referring to the oil companies. No one can tell me that the gas we are paying such high prices for was refined since Katrina. It comes from stock manufactured well before and there is no other name to call their actions but gouging.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

*1.384* / litre when I filled 'er up this evening (Esso Extra). 

Flocking bustards.


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## Cliffy (Apr 18, 2005)

SINC said:


> Dr. G., I was referring to the oil companies. No one can tell me that the gas we are paying such high prices for was refined since Katrina. It comes from stock manufactured well before and there is no other name to call their actions but gouging.


Not only that, but it is the same gas in the ground as the day before. I don't see tankers pulling up 3 or 4 times a day whenever the price changes.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sinc, I recall speaking to a Petro Canada VP a couple of years ago about why when the price of oil goes up dramatically in a week, the price of gas also goes up, even though this oil was not purchased and refined at the new higher price. "World economics and supply and demand", he replied. I then asked him why then the price of gas did not go down just as quickly when the price of oil falls. "Profit margins and shareholder equity" was his reply.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Bought gas a few hours ago at 1.16 a liter, and it was reported that after midnight tonight, it shall go up to 1.46 a liter.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I'm managing to hold my Windstar just under 21 mpg which is normally around 18.3 so I'm just about offsetting the increase with a gentle foot and less a/c.

I do swaer I think the QEW was moving a tad slower on average today - anyone else notice??

The lead foots were more noticeable so I figure the majority were taking it a bit easier.


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## highapostle (Apr 21, 2004)

dolawren said:


> I'm just glad that I have unlimited 24 hr transferrable travel in the GTA thanks to
> my new Metro Pass, Although...I just got my layoff notice after I bought it, I'll be
> layed off Sept 14th, Oh well  ... I'll still have my Metro Pass.
> Maybe I'll take off on photo shoot safari's as far as the transit will take me.


Yeah, it's interesting timing that the TTC has decided on September to be the month to introduce transferrable Metropasses as well as weekly passes - it's obviously been in the pipes for some time (weekly passes were made available during spring break and the holiday season this past year, I'm guessing as a trial run), but combined with increased gas prices it might be enough of a pull for some motorists to take transit more often.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, I find that getting 37mpg is about the best I am able to get with my Toyota Echo, which is an automatic without an air conditioner. This includes the winter driving, which in St.John's means SNOW tires and deep snow/slush/ice. We drive about 500-600 km a month, so since the tank only holds 10 gallons, I am filling it up twice every 4-5 weeks (I NEVER let my gas tank go below 1/2 empty). I guess I am extremely lucky, because I need to drive so little each day.........although my son HAS to drive various places. Still, I am with you re changing one's driving habits to help conserve fuel.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

My daughter drives a 2003 Nissan Exterra to far south Edmonton every day and is burning a quarter tank per day, or about 15 liters.

I have offered to allow her to drive my Suzuki Grand Vitara which will only burn about 7 liters for the same trip. Meanwhile, I will drive her gas guzzler to my office which is only 18 kilometers return each day and thus we shall save on gas overall.

As for our new motor home, we now only go very short distances and will actually spend less on fuel than we have in years. The good news is we counted over 30 campgrounds we have not visited within an hour's drive from our home.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

macdoc, you can save more gas by driving with your windows closed and the ac on, rather than the other way around. the drag from the open windows (at highway speeds) is much worse than the drag on the engine from the ac compressor.

oh, and i just filled up the tank @ 109.5 the first time i've ever hit $60! luckily i only fill it once every two weeks or so.

i'm getting 8.1-8.5 l/100km with about 85% highway driving. how is everyone else's fuel economy? my wife's car is getting about 1l/100km less (smaller, less powerful engine).


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Like MacDoc, I too own a Windstar and I can assure you that with the vents open and the rear windows open and no A/C running, there is a cooling effect plus no drag to worry about, thus saving a few mpg.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Get used to it..... Perhaps this pricing will have an impact on consumption. The only justification for the 20-30 cent changes in the space of a day or two is oil company profit. But the raw cost of fuel is increasing so these prices will continue to head on upwards (with brief descents). Let's hope its a mild winter. 

It's ironic that global warming is directly penalizing Hummer owners......


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

I noticed gas was $1.12 this afternoon at the local Sunoco. I saw the price as I rode my bicycle home from work. My commute includes exercise and no pollution. My old Jeep Cherokee is spending most of its time in my driveway. I think this is a very good thing.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I don't keep the windows open at highway speeds and I've been only using the a/c on downhill and timing lights etc, tires right up and easy foot on the gas - adds up. It's fun to have the digital reading and see how high I can keep it.
Apparently some of the Prius and high miler diesels can actually get into the 80s mpg wit real careful driving. One Honda in a shoot out went 1050 miles on 50 litres with just normal but speed limit driving.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Gas shot up 20 cents overnight here in St.John's to 1.33 a liter. I agree that this is not just a blip and we shall see this summer as "the good old days" eventually. Still, it makes one rethink their driving needs and habits, which, hopefully, should lead to some conservation. We shall see.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

$1.33 yikes. I think it won't be too long before food and other items shoot up in price if it has not already happened  Taxi drivers are getting hit hard I was watching on the news. The poor will get poorer. Driving a car may one day become a luxury that few people can afford.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

We have been warned that gas will go up even higher on the 15th of Sept. as will the price of EVERYTHING else that is transported here. Strange, with all of the Hibernia off-shore oil being pumped off the coast of NL, not a drop makes it way back here as gasoline.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

Why the 15th?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

We have regulations in place that oil-based products have prices set on the 1st and 15th of each month. However, since prices seem to go up at will, these dates seem senseless.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I guess they changed the law to everyday now lol


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Don't over dramatize it.
Average drivers put on around 25k per year on a vehicle.
That's about 3000 litres - assuming it was 80¢ per litre and increases to $1.20
Then that adds about $23 per week to transport costs of which likely 1/2 can be reduced by smarter or less driving. Most people with cars would spend that on casual daily purchases such as a coffee and donut.

Europeans have been thriving with much higher prices than that. try $2.20 a litre.

What it will do is support more efficient vehicle sales which is a good thing and make people more conscious but it won't put them out of range by any means.
The price hike - like electricity is needed in the long term but portraying it out of proportion doesn't help.
I found it interesting that my vehicle fuel costs over distance was the same in Europe as here - smaller vehicle in Europe but still adequate for four but I also travelled at much higher speeds in Europe than here.

It will hurt lower margin high transport commodities but not a big impact on finished goods
Canada also has embraced fuel efficient vehicles far quicker than the US so that's a good thing and we don;t have the need for a/c all the time the way the southern states do.

It will boost some costs ( airline ) and may hurt tourism for car and air which has been falling due to border hassles and a dollar closer to par.

Grapes from Chile and asparagus from China may be a thing of the past.......that MIGHT be a good thing tho.

The electricity situation is in my mind the greater issue - Ontario really needs a better plan as it will affect manufacturing big time.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I think the hybrid cars are fantastic. If they are not affordable then only some people will benefit from them. Hopefully they make them competitive and give people options without breaking the bank because it is good for the environment. Gas is brutal in the UK and even when I was there many years ago it was expensive. We should drive small cars unless it is impossible if you live up North or have kids. I think because of the SVU and big truck popularity it has kicked us in the ass now.


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## Ingenu (Jun 4, 2003)

$1,47 in Montreal... how about that?!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ingenu said:


> $1,47 in Montreal... how about that?!


For regular of high octane? Big difference if that is not the regular price.


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## Ingenu (Jun 4, 2003)

SINC said:


> For regular of high octane? Big difference if that is not the regular price.


Regular. Here's the story : http://www.canada.com/montreal/mont....html?id=a6bc8fe7-76cb-4d39-8902-218fe0126aae


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, re Ontario's electricity situation, the Ontario government, in partnership with Hydro-Québec and SNC-Lavalin, has submitted a joint proposal to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to assist in the development of 2,824 megawatts from the Gull Island and Muskrat Falls sites , both on the Lower Churchill River. If successful, this initiative would help to create a long-term supply of clean, affordable and sustainable hydroelectric power for Ontario. 

The Gull Island and Muskrat Falls sites on the Lower Churchill River are generally acknowledged to be the most economic undeveloped hydroelectric sites in all of North America.

We shall see.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah but why does it seem more talk and less walk Dr. G.  This spike in fossil fuel should light a fire.
I want to see new nuclear in Ontario as well.


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

$1.169 in Nanaimo this morning.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Still at 1.095 here in St. Albert. It's 1.13 in Edmonton now.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, hydroelectricity will be cheaper and less harmful for the environment. The infrastructure is there re the transmission lines, and it is an easier section of the river to dam and build another hyrdo plant. Ontario went to Quebec, and the two provinces came to us for this possible plan.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> For regular of high octane? Big difference if that is not the regular price.


We have hit 1.50 for regular gas....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah but Dr. G it's not going to come close to meeting future needs - there are not enough sites.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Ingenu said:


> $1,47 in Montreal... how about that?!


and


AS said:


> We have hit 1.50 for regular gas....


Yikes, things are moving fast!

I've been predicting to everyone I know that we will soon be in the era of $2/litre gasoline, but I was thinking it would be more like next year. Maybe, it will be sooner, who knows?

Major financial and energy gurus are predicting $100 /barrell oil for the near future.

Regarding gouging, I think that the governments have to take more direct control of oil and natural gas prices in general. Funny how electricity is very regulated, in some places, yet petrol and heating oil is laissez faire.

I think this will happen, as governments start to realize that this precious commodity, that our industrial society absolutely requires to function, cannot just be the source of windfall profits for large corps and their shareholders.

The US government is already sticking its nose in the oil free market, as Congress moved to block the sale of Chevron to a Chinese state firm. I predict that rationing of oil/petrol is in our future. It is a key element for society's functioning and cannot be allowed to be just guzzled away.

I would be a proponent of higher taxes (do I hear MacNutt screaming?) and controlled profit levels for the oil companies. The price of gasoline has to rise and the extra money should be specifically funding alternatives, like more transit and alt energy research, that we will need very soon, as oil becomes scarcer and more expensive. In the meantime the increased price will spur conservation and help to put the oil peak on a bit of plateau. Maybe our governments can help the situation now by having oil profits fall under the review of utilities commissions that already regulate electricity prices. We could mandate a fixed rate of profit per barrell to the oil companies, as well as mandate that any taxes collected will be specifically used to help us mitigate the coming energy crunch.

Higher oil prices are also going to have a serious effect on the economy, kickstarting inflation, although this can be blunted if there is a major push towards alternatives right away. Politicians will wait until they are dragged by their noses to do something. Those of us who will bear the brunt of this need to lead them, or not complain when the consequences start to manifest themselves.

We should have been aware of this a generation ago, but instead the ostriches were lowering the price of gas and marketing SUVs. They were somewhat smarter in Europe, where some of those high gas taxes were spent on a transit infrastructure, that can lessen the blow of higher gas prices. The devastating effect of high gas prices on their economies will be less. Here we have no alternatives in place, if gas really starts to move upwards, like double or triple today's price, our puny transit infrastructures will be swamped. We need to get a whole lot smarter, real soon.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Hilarious, I just now stumbled upon this, after this last post. 


> State Senator Joe Dunn, a Democrat, has introduced a constitutional amendment that would allow the state Public Utilities Commission to require mandatory fuel reserves, set profit margins for oil and gas companies and order the construction of new pipelines. The measure would also bar agreements between energy corporations to reduce competition.
> 
> Dunn's amendment would allow the California Public Utilities Commission to cap prices, although the senator told reporters that step would only be taken as a last resort.
> 
> Dunn brings a refreshing bluntness to the discourse. Speaking to the Associated Press, he accused the oil industry of creating a dysfunctional market in California, in which competition is essentially eliminated. That, he explained, is why states need to step up their use of regulatory powers.


I just hope these people aren't thinking that they can regulate the price lower, just so people can afford to fill up their wasteful SUVs.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Interesting trends in the gas prices in Calgary, Toronto and Vancouver: Graph. Looks like BC has been paying a lot more for gas but the differential has been reduced/eliminated by the soaring prices elsewhere. Toronto prices also headed up a day before Calgary.....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

$1.99 on Manitoulin Island


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

What next?

2 stroke cars?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/fev_developing_.html


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## Rob777 (Dec 17, 2002)

$1.35 in Kitchener right now. 

Yet I still drove my car to the bank tonight instead of taking the 15 minute bike ride. Maybe gas isn't high enough yet for me. It's starting to make me think.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You know hooking that up as a steady state engine ( no rpm changes ) with a hybrid system would be extremely fuel efficient and emmissions could be very low as it's the changes in load that makes it hard to control emmissions and get high fuel burns.

Does anyone think we might see "efficient vehicle" lanes??....... so the lighter vehicles don't have to play in the same physical lane.
This would allow bicycles and other high efficiency transport to offer a real benefit and encourage adoption.

Cities will need to have more power to institute change without enormous red tape.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Rob777 said:


> $1.35 in Kitchener right now.
> 
> Yet I still drove my car to the bank tonight instead of taking the 15 minute bike ride. Maybe gas isn't high enough yet for me. It's starting to make me think.


I saw 139.9 at the Petro Canada by Weber and Northfield.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

We have decided to join the waiting list for a new Mercedes "Smart" car for our in town needs, as well as our new tow vehicle behind the motor home. We will place our order tomorrow morning. When it arrives, the Suzuki 4 x 4 and the Windstar will be gone as we downsize to only one car in 2006.

Further, our 49 Meteor and 70 Monte Carlo will be on the web at trader.com tomorrow and in the national print edition that comes out October 6.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Yet I still drove my car to the bank tonight instead of taking the 15 minute bike ride. Maybe gas isn't high enough yet for me. It's starting to make me think.


I'm in the same boat I'd like to ride something a bit more comfortable and with carry capacity than my mountain bike - an electric something with panniers. A pedal assist electric or something along that line.

Down side - you can't use the sidewalk and competing with full sized vehicles is nerve racking.
I'd ride more but Mississauga roads are so busy it's a pain. - gotta be some alternatives. 

Y'know maybe those walking speed electrics - it would give a real boost to accessibility for the disabled as well. They are low, don't tip, are bit hard to swipe at 5 mph and heavy.

Stuff like this
























Y'know that's cool.


> Our top of the line model. This unit is available in burgundy red or forest green and comes loaded with additional features not found on any other scooter in its class. In addition to a two wheel drive model, we also offer a four wheel drive version which is powered by a 0.75 horsepower front wheel motor and a 1 horsepower rear motor. This unit is capable of tackling the most difficult terrain. Some of the notable features of this model include:500 lb weight capacity
> 
> 22" wide Captain's chair
> 
> ...


 :clap:


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

My bicycle gets infinity miles to the gallon. I just love the looks of those SUV drivers at the gas station!

Instead of complaining about gas prices, get a bike, walking shoes, and make 1 less car trip per day. Maybe an environmental group can adopt it as a slogan :- Make one less car trip per day!!


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

An electric golf cart is looking good right now.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Amen, TheBat, Amen. I especially try to avoid short start and stop trips. If I am able to walk or bike, this is far better for the environment and my health.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

But Bat there is little that you can carry on a bike or walking that would really replace a vehicle.
I can't do serious food shopping on a bike for a family. Biking and walking is for enjoyment but does not replace the carrying ability.

Andrew those "Feel Good Cars" are roadable golf carts.








http://www.feelgoodcars.com/

That's exactly the right vehicle but it's gotta be cheap.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, are you able to do it European style and go shopping five or six times a week? I have tried this and have found that I am able to get better prices and better quality fruit and veggies by shopping nearly every day for about 1/2 an hour.


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## Griller (Jan 17, 2002)

*133.9!! [email protected]#$%@ [email protected]# *&%$!!!*

133.9/ litre !! I just "filled up" after running it down to 'E'... it cost me $54.45!! I remember the days where it was $32.50, that was two months ago!

This is fu--ing bullcrap! I've never really sworn in a post but this is such a scam. What the hell happened??? One day it's 118, the next it's half way through the 130's (133.9)!!!??

They just decided to SKIP the *120's*????!!! What happend to the 120's? The couldn't just humour us for a day or two? *W T F*?!

@#$!!!!! I'm just thankful I have the car that I have, an Acura 1.7EL, which is great on fuel as far as full internal combustion engine vehicles go. I wish I had the forsight to splurge on the Civic Hybrid or Toyota Prius. But *STILL* I'm not liking this gasoline price situation AT all, I was actually content with 118.5.

Public transit is looking DAMNED good right about now. *[email protected]#$% !!*


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I'd love that Dr. G but that requires more trips in the vehicle - it's not close enough to walk.

I try and limit the shopping to once a week with maybe one "walk to the convenience store" for milk trip.
It usually ends up about every 4 -5 days not a 7 day cycle and I wish I could get daily bread without a car trip. ;(

I usually combine with a kid drop off at school. Private school is a 10 minute drive and I try to do errands on that loop.

I'm unconvinced daily shopping makes for efficiency unless you are in an urban environment tho it is a nice treat - I use to enjoy the daily or every other day ventures into town in France for food but that was on vacation.

Ace bread fresh daily is a might strong incentive but it's usually only twice a week we get to pick it up.

•••

Hey Griller....my tank is 102 litres ..........THAT hurts on a fillup


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## cheshire_cat (Aug 28, 2005)

Another alternative is getting a Vespa. They are great on gas...$4 to fill it up!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah something like a Vespa is cool if you have a personal commute but not for a family grocery trip. I rode summer and winter for 5 years in university and my daughter wants one as well.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, if you are not close enough to walk, then one big shopping trip is more gas efficient. We looked for a home that was near Memorial Univ., near my son's school, near shopping areas within walking distances, near parks and walking trails, and was something we could afford. We lucked into this house 8 years ago, and have not regretted the move.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

$54.25 to fill my Corolla today. $1.24 today in Cambridge, ON. That hurts, I "Have" to drive to make a living. My company has made it clear that car allowances will not be increased. A month ago I was filling for $34. I need to fill 2.5 times a week so that is a $50 a week coming out of my families mouth. 

Pretty tough to take.


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## TCB (Apr 4, 2003)

I drive a Jetta TDI, just awesome. Got 1053 km on my last tank....FYI, it cost me 95.6 just yesterday when gas was selling for 1.30.....diesel is the way, north americans should wake up to it already.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

TCB said:


> I drive a Jetta TDI, just awesome. Got 1053 km on my last tank....FYI, it cost me 95.6 just yesterday when gas was selling for 1.30.....diesel is the way, north americans should wake up to it already.


Boy, I hope Mel doesn't see your post! LOL!


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Our energy inefficient surburban dream life is going start getting pretty expensive. The burbs are going to have to change to a model with small town centres and walking distance shopping. They were conceived and designed on a model that depended upon ultra cheap gasoline.

Reccommended viewing: The End of Suburbia.










"We're literally stuck up a cul-de-sac in a cement SUV without a fill-up"

http://www.endofsuburbia.com/


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> Amen, TheBat, Amen. I especially try to avoid short start and stop trips. If I am able to walk or bike, this is far better for the environment and my health.


Its good to bike and walk for your health and more people should be doing that.

But, as far as gas goes, you gotta know we are going to burn every last drop we can pull out of the ground. So, I am not sure we are saving the environment by conserving fuel.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Vandave said:


> But, as far as gas goes, you gotta know we are going to burn every last drop we can pull out of the ground. So, I am not sure we are saving the environment by conserving fuel.


True Dave, we will burn every last drop that we can get our hands on. The question is, should we burn it all up ASAP, or try and ration it out until we can have some alternative to take up the slack? At present our industrial society, all the products we use, all the food we eat and our whole economy requires oil, in massive quantities to function. We need to figure out how to wean ourselves off of it or our society, as we know it will have a serious problem carrying on.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Interestingly enough...as the price for gas gets higher, more of the already established alternative fuels become far more economically viable.

This will lead to a lessened dependance on this one form of readily available energy in the future, I suspect.

Market forces are once again at work.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Vandave, I agree with GA that the days of total use of all resources ASAP are over. We need to conserve and ration if need be, these resources.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> True Dave, we will burn every last drop that we can get our hands on. The question is, should we burn it all up ASAP, or try and ration it out until we can have some alternative to take up the slack? At present our industrial society, all the products we use, all the food we eat and our whole economy requires oil, in massive quantities to function. We need to figure out how to wean ourselves off of it or our society, as we know it will have a serious problem carrying on.


I think we will face a small energy crunch in the medium term (10 to 20 years), but I don't think there is a shortage of oil right now. If you agree with this timeline, then the question becomes... Will market forces have enough time to find alternative products to keep our society running before our oil supplies start dropping off?

My feeling is yes, because:

Coal - There is a massive amount of coal in our world. The US and Canada have enough to power our society for something like 100 plus years. 
Nuclear - There are plenty of known uranium deposits in Canada. Nuclear energy is more expensive right now, but isn't way out of line.
Geothermal - The technology already exists to install these systems, its just a little too expensive for most applications. But a 50% rise in heating costs start to make this look really good and can result in fuel savings of 50% plus. I have actually done up a business plan for creating such a company.
Other alternatives (wind, solar, tidal, etc...) - These are slowly starting to come online.

So, I am less worried about a shortage of energy than I am concerned for our environment. The world is definately warming and we don't know enough about it to attribute all the causes. Humans are obviously a factor, but how high is debatable. When you look at satellite photos of our world (google maps), its easy to see how significant our ecological footprint is.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You speak of market forces as if they are some great oracle .

PEOPLE and governments led by leaders with imagination and the guts to take unpopular decisions might be able to MANAGE the transition.
Market forces may make those decisions more palatable but what you have at the moment is a speculative environs and govs are also reaping great profits from that that need to be directed to intelligent low environmental impact.

This scale of change MUST be a partnership between private, gov and citizenry. Planned not left to some mythical "market force".

Here's a good "in nutshell" the difference.

{quote]*With backing from Iceland's government, a consortium that includes DaimlerChrysler AG, Norsk Hydro AS of Norway, Royal Dutch Shell Group and a Reykjavik-based venture capital fund has formed Iceland New Energy Ltd. as a first step toward transforming Iceland into the world's first "hydrogen economy." Exportation of hydrogen could be decades away.*
Fuel-cell powered vehicles are a key component of Iceland's experiment. Fuel cells combine hydrogen and oxygen in a noncombustion process to produce electricity and water vapor. The devices are 50 percent more efficient than gas-powered engines and produce no harmful emissions. 
Iceland's first fuel cells are expected to run three Reykjavik buses equipped by Mercedes-Benz. "Then in private cars to see what can develop as an entire society with those kind of fuels," said Iceland's president, Olafur Ragnar Grimsson, in an interview. "Iceland is probably the only country in the world where you could put hydrogen in the entire economy. 
"Iceland has generally welcomed innovation. The computerization of Icelandic culture was not planned by government. It was not a grand scheme. The people brought them into their homes. The same for mobile phones." 
Iceland is not just any country. It's small, with fewer than 280,000 people. It's progressive and wired, boasting some of the world's highest mobile phone usage, most personal computers and Internet connections per capita. And, by dint of geography and geology, it has the ability to produce power with renewable natural energy instead of ozone-producing fossil fuels or nuclear reactors. 
* A shift to hydrogen power may not be as smooth as, say, Iceland's embrace of the Internet or Nokia's latest mobile phone.* The country consumes more oil per capita than any country in the world, even the United States. Weaning Icelanders from gasoline and diesel fuel is not likely to be easy, inexpensive or quick, experts say. 
Considered the next generation in automotive power, hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles remain too expensive, too susceptible to cold weather and too tricky to refuel to gain wide public acceptance anytime soon, even in Iceland. [/quote]

it needs gov AND private AND citizens...there and here.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

time to regulate gasoline prices and have them "apply" for price increases the way that hydro, phone and tv do

while we're at it, let's "cap" the $ value of the tax % levied by gov't on things like fuel
why should the feds make more money just beacuse robberbaron fuel companies raise prices by 1/3 overnight?
it's "highway" robbery pure and simple


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You speak of market forces as if they are some great oracle .

PEOPLE and governments led by leaders with imagination and the guts to take unpopular decisions might be able to MANAGE the transition.
Market forces may make those decisions more palatable but what you have at the moment is a speculative environs and govs are also reaping great profits from that that need to be directed to intelligent low environmental impact.

This scale of change MUST be a partnership between private, gov and citizenry. Planned not left to some mythical "market force".

Here's a good "in nutshell" the difference.



> *With backing from Iceland's government, a consortium that includes DaimlerChrysler AG, Norsk Hydro AS of Norway, Royal Dutch Shell Group and a Reykjavik-based venture capital fund has formed Iceland New Energy Ltd. as a first step toward transforming Iceland into the world's first "hydrogen economy." Exportation of hydrogen could be decades away.*
> Fuel-cell powered vehicles are a key component of Iceland's experiment. Fuel cells combine hydrogen and oxygen in a noncombustion process to produce electricity and water vapor. The devices are 50 percent more efficient than gas-powered engines and produce no harmful emissions.
> Iceland's first fuel cells are expected to run three Reykjavik buses equipped by Mercedes-Benz. "Then in private cars to see what can develop as an entire society with those kind of fuels," said Iceland's president, Olafur Ragnar Grimsson, in an interview. "Iceland is probably the only country in the world where you could put hydrogen in the entire economy.
> "Iceland has generally welcomed innovation. The computerization of Icelandic culture was not planned by government. It was not a grand scheme. The people brought them into their homes. The same for mobile phones."
> ...


it needs gov AND private AND citizens...there and here.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I would like to know what "market forces" were in force when the price of gas went up 13 cents 36 hours ago, and another 12 cents overnight. The price of gas to replace the gas already in the tank at the gas station will be higher, but the price of oil that was used to make that gas that is already in the storage tank was not bought at current values.


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## Applelover (Mar 6, 2005)

*So trueee*



Dr.G. said:


> I would like to know what "market forces" were in force when the price of gas went up 13 cents 36 hours ago, and another 12 cents overnight. The price of gas to replace the gas already in the tank at the gas station will be higher, but the price of oil that was used to make that gas that is already in the storage tank was not bought at current values.


My manager at work was just saying the same thing....sooooooooo fricking true


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"what the market will bear"........it's the conflict between laissez faire and regulated change and the "rights" of corporations to "earn" the maximum income for shareholders and the "rights" of citizens to have their elected government to protect them from oligopolies.

Never ending tension in many areas and a growing one when resources on all fronts are restricted.

In MY business we have to cope with the hassles of offering more value for less money every day. It's destructive in a different way than "gouging" on a crisis.

Dislocations from sudden economic swings and oligarchs is the gov purview.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

This CSM cartoonist pretty much nailed it!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

'cept the GTAers seem to have settled on $1.28.6

Now since their signs don't go past $1.00.0 then I think I should take the $ .28.6 per litre on the sign literally.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I think that , as of Wednesday - we, as many "we's" as we can get - should stop buying gas at Petro Canada first - for an ENTIRE WEEK - then next Wednesday we pick on Esso and so on and so on til someone listens. Any opinions?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

for an interesting look at oil, Katrina and the Bush admin.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/090205_bet_life.shtml


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

*118.8 cents, Burnaby*

At this gas station still with only 3 digits, they simply shifted the 1 so that there's a gap at the left end to look like another 1, cleverly making it look like 118.8.

We British Columbians used to complain we had the highest gas prices in Canada, last summer gas was frequently at 99.9 and I think they would've been higher were they equipped to display 4 digit gas prices. Looks like this Mohawk found the solution.  And the highest gas price crown now goes to Quebec and Atlantic Canada.

Donald
Transit user, cyclist, and rollerblader


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Cameo said:


> I think that , as of Wednesday - we, as many "we's" as we can get - should stop buying gas at Petro Canada first - for an ENTIRE WEEK - then next Wednesday we pick on Esso and so on and so on til someone listens. Any opinions?


 The problem with this plan is the service station operators are not making the profits. The profiteers are earlier in the supply chain.

You would have to know who the "customers" = service stations of a particular refinery are.

In the Maritimes we have two refineries Irving and Esso. Esso stations get product from Irving refineries and Irving Stations gets gas from the Esso refinery depending on the distance from the refinery.

Petro Can, Ultra Mar, CO-OP, Canadian Tire, Wilson's and every other service station in the Maritimes get their products from either the Esso or Irving refinery.

Our regions has an other big refinery in Come-by-Chance NL that is not allowed to market their refined products into our region. Go figure. So much for "Market Forces" horse$h!t.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

From the Economist lead story  How do you like THOSE numbers?!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

It is now 1.48 a liter here in St.John's. Some of the Atlantic Canadian premiers have been considering taking away the provincial tax on heating oil this winter, but so far, it is just talk. Here in NL, we are also hoping that the special tax that was placed on each liter of gas to help pay the federal government for its guarantee of the Hibernia loan (which has now been paid off in full without a default as they feared, which was the reason for the tax) will now be lifted. This tax is especially angering in that we are not able to get any of the Hibernia oil, once it is refined, to be used here in NL. We shall see.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Doesn't matter which refinery is hit first - Petro Canada first week - another station the next - rotating boycotts if you want to call it that.

Not all of us can afford to buy another car to help that way.

Either that or sit back and don't bitch about it if you aren't even going to try to do something.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> You speak of market forces as if they are some great oracle .
> 
> it needs gov AND private AND citizens...there and here.


I agree. That's not a bad approach for moving forward. It sounds like Iceland needs to do that to reduce their reliance on oil.

But, I still think the world is awash in energy deposits in one form or another. A future energy crunch will be a result of transitioning from oil to a new source. But, this will also bring opportunity, which the private sector is great at responding to.

I am not too concerned about energy, but rather the environment. We simply don't know enough about causes and effects. We need to study the problem more.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Short term gas boycott's won't work. I agree with this little Snopes article:

Gas OUT! 

In NL the lion's share of gas prices are taxes, federal and provincial. 
To really make a difference we have to use less gas.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> I would like to know what "market forces" were in force when the price of gas went up 13 cents 36 hours ago, and another 12 cents overnight. The price of gas to replace the gas already in the tank at the gas station will be higher, but the price of oil that was used to make that gas that is already in the storage tank was not bought at current values.


I would suggest that speculation and uncertainty are the cause. Right now we don't know how this storm is going to affect refining ability in North America. If we lost just 5% of production, it will have a major effect on price. The price of gasoline has to increase to a point when it reduces demand by an equal amount by which the production has decreased.

It doesn't matter what price the gasoline was purchased at. It's all about what it can be sold at. That's basic market forces. It's no different than the gold ring on your finger or a house you bought 40 years ago. If your asset appreciates because you bought it low, you get to profit more from it when you sell at the market rate. Nobody is going to sell an asset below market rates. Would you sell your house at 20% below value because you got a good deal when you bought it?

Market forces are based on supply and demand. The price of gasoline is inelastic, meaning that demand doesn't drop off as quickly as price is increased. The price point at which this happens could be around $3 a litre (speculation on my part). If gasoline stations wanted to collude, they could increase their prices all the way to the point of elasticity. Since they haven't done this over time suggests to me that collusion isn't occurring.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Gas price fluctuations from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_price

Good explanation.

(Sorry, I meant oil price fluctuations)


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> It sounds like Iceland needs to do that to reduce their reliance on oil.


EVERYONE needs to do that to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels which have such a deleterious impact.
Not all prices are set by the market - diamonds notably.

Lack of calculating the entire cost including the environmental impact also creates a false market price. Market price for lumber does not take into account the time it takes t regrow that tree and the loss of the tree to the environment.

Sustainable based products indeed may form pure markets but those based on "mining" irreplaceable assets are often very artifical and those "regulated" by government programs or regulation have little market force in them at all ( furnaces/a/c etc benefit from restricted competition and the consumer pays and pays ).

The carbon trading market I find q good solution as it does lead to innnovation in controlling pollution and puts truer costs in place getting closer to a sustainable use of resources.
End to end costing as with LEED building codes are a great leap forward in removing the "mining" aspect and getting true long term costs for products in place.

I also do not believe the market is entirely driven by "lowest cost".
Value is a funny term and while I CAN get good coffee cheaper I look for Fair Trade coffee as it has more "value" to me.
Dealing with a company that demonstrates both environmental awareness and fair trade/wages also has "value" for me and many others over price alone.

The market triumphs when it leads to innovation and lower costs for goods and services to society it fails when it results in oligarchy and higher costs to society.

Treating gold as a pure market when it actually works as a currency/inflation hedge is very dubious. Intrinsic value like diamonds is low. It's very artificial.
Silver, nickel etc are closer to true markets but even there the lag times and few suppliers lend an artificial aspect to pricing.

There are too many people and too few resources to let "blind market" loose in critical areas. It will be interesting to see how this "oil shock" plays out.

As Iceland has done - a consortium of the interested parties, gov, corp and citizenry will more and more be engaged in managing forward progress and the values of critical social elements.
I found it so ironic that a city that wanted to provide free broadband coverage to it's constituents was sued by the telecoms. .
Communities and nations will increasingly bring critical resources under direct control.

You can bet the airlines that would not fly empty planes into New Orleans to bring people out will be big time up for review.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> EVERYONE needs to do that to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels which have such a deleterious impact.
> Not all prices are set by the market - diamonds notably.
> 
> Lack of calculating the entire cost including the environmental impact also creates a false market price. Market price for lumber does not take into account the time it takes t regrow that tree and the loss of the tree to the environment.


Those are both good examples of where governments are needed to intervene in a market. 

The diamond industry is controlled by one large player and is therefore, a monopoly, which isn't a free market. A government monopoly always beats a private monopoly in my opinion. But, I'll take a competitive market over a government monopoly is most situations.

Negative externialities, such as environmental damage, should be factored into the price of a product. A free market cannot account for these damages in their prices as they do not control the effects. Therefore, the government is required to step in a manage these damages. I think the best way to do it is via taxes on goods with negative externialities and credits for positive externialities (e.g. reforestation, stream restoration, etc..).

With oil, we don't know the negative effect. I would support a tax on oil for conducting research on climate change and managing environmental damages.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

We do know the carbon impact and I think that's a great start as well it's pretty easy to calculate a "down stream" cost to society when supplies run out. I think the best way to extend that period is to put it on a close to equal footing with sustainable resources instead of an artificial advantage.

If a oil miner had to actually "make" the energy from plant materials the cost would be huge.

There is no question a return for refining is warranted but the "mined cost" is where gov and costing and "fair practice' need to be worked on.

For the longest time the railroads bitched about the roads getting unfair subsidies as the RRs had to pay for their right of way and maintenance while the truckers did not directly.

I also think there are lot of energy sources, notably nuclear and clathrates but switching to hydrogen is the only long term climate solution and THAT will require heavy gov involvement.
Not an easy path to chart but the higher prices ARE an incentive.

If I was starting a new biz I'd definitely be involved in some aspect of energy saving/management.
Big time growth area.


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

It's funny - as the price of gas continues to rise - it's just making it that much easier to blow people away at traffic lights when driving my chipped TDI. Some people do seem to be accelerating more slowly in the past few days...


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

SINC said:


> Further, our 49 Meteor and 70 Monte Carlo will be on the web at trader.com tomorrow and in the national print edition that comes out October 6.


I don't really understand why you would sell an older "hobby" car - it's unlikely that you use them to commute. 

Having said that, I hope more people do - I'd like to drive the prices of 60's cars down a little. I'm thinking that I'd really like an early 60's Lincoln - and if the prices go down due to gas prices - I could prolly get a convertible!


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Vandave said:


> I think we will face a small energy crunch in the medium term (10 to 20 years), but I don't think there is a shortage of oil right now. If you agree with this timeline, then the question becomes... Will market forces have enough time to find alternative products to keep our society running before our oil supplies start dropping off?
> 
> My feeling is yes, because:
> 
> ...


Dave, congratulations on getting into an environmentally friendly business. I wish you great success with it.

I think that geothermal is great. People looking at it now shouldn't do the calculations based on today's price, but should actually calculate based on an educated guess of where energy prices will be in the future. People should also do the drilling now, while oil prices are relatively cheap, because fuelling those big machines to drill deep in the future could cost many times more.

I remember when they put in that development on 4th Avenue in Kitsilano, that heats with geothermal. They had a big machine there for some time pounding into the ground. I used to sit in the Starbucks every morning and watch it before I went to work. I wonder if they are already realizing the savings after 10 years. Certainly our environment has already realized the savings of all the energy a block size project like that would have used in a decade.

I am not quite as sanguine as you are about market forces providing the answer or smoothing out the problem. I would hope you are right, because if you are not, then we are all in for a very rough ride economically. I don't know if supply and demand applies to a situation where supply can't be increased and will soon be outpaced by demand and demand can't be curbed very easily, because we have a massive infrastructure requiring oil for everything we do, which can't be switched overnight.

I found this article in "Energy Bulletin" that nicely sums up the two conflicting positions on the coming energy crunch.


> Right now, the price of a barrel of oil is hovering around $70. But what's going to happen when it hits $80? $100? $200? Opinions are sharply divided.
> 
> On one side, the Chicken Little Brigade says the end of cheap oil will cause an abrupt worldwide economic crash, casting civilization into violence and turmoil.The lucky ones might escape with a modest agrarian life, carving tools by candlelight and wondering what would have happened on the next season of ''Desperate Housewives."
> 
> ...


I think it is only prudent that we prepare for a more negative outcome, because nobody really knows what will happen or when. I also think it would be prudent to assume that we are already entering the energy crunch and to start moving to alternates as soon as possible. The steps we take in preparing for a worse outcome will only be a benefit to society as a whole if the outcome isn't as bad. Using less energy, and less fossil fuels burned will have a positive result no matter how the future energy crunch happens.

For me, being 48, I will likely be dead or very old when any poop starts to hit the fan. Unfortunately it's people my age that are making the decisions that people who are now teenagers or younger adults will have to live with in the 2020s, 30s and 40s. If was younger now, I would be even more motivated to get the powers that be off of their collective asses.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Wow I thought this was an Economist forecast - THAT'S A REAL PRICE IN THE US!!!!








...ouch - just saw it on CNN


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Dave, congratulations on getting into an environmentally friendly business. I wish you great success with it.
> 
> I think that geothermal is great. People looking at it now shouldn't do the calculations based on today's price, but should actually calculate based on an educated guess of where energy prices will be in the future. People should also do the drilling now, while oil prices are relatively cheap, because fuelling those big machines to drill deep in the future could cost many times more.


I am not at the point of forming a geothermal company as I only have completed a business plan. There is still quite a bit more work required before I would be at that point, including becoming more educated on the subject. My background is in Geological Engineering and I practice as a consulting environmental engineer. I know a lot about drilling as I routinely retain drilling contractors. I am slowly making positive steps in this direction though and maybe it will turn into something in 2 to 3 years.

Fuel costs for a rig are lower than you might think. The cost of equipment, labour and supplies are greater. A rig might burn 100+ litres in a day, which is only about $100. The typical cost for a day of environmental drilling would be $3,000 (small rig) to $6,000 (large rig).

Right now most of the applications are for commercial and industrial purposes due to costs and the market is mostly governments. We are still a little ways away from it being accepted into residential applications, which is where I would want to enter the market.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

I know this is getting off topic for this thread Dave, but what do you think the average cost would be to get a home set up with geothermal heating?

Just to get back on topic – Gas prices – yikes!!!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Start a thread on alternative energy - I'm game.


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## minimadman (Apr 26, 2005)

*new price*

129.7!!!! Ouch!


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

minimadman said:


> 129.7!!!! Ouch!


Down from 139.9


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## cheshire_cat (Aug 28, 2005)

still hurts tho


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

RobTheGob said:


> I don't really understand why you would sell an older "hobby" car - it's unlikely that you use them to commute.
> 
> Having said that, I hope more people do - I'd like to drive the prices of 60's cars down a little. I'm thinking that I'd really like an early 60's Lincoln - and if the prices go down due to gas prices - I could prolly get a convertible!


The price of gas has nothing to do with selling off these collector cars. After all, I have only driven them a few thousand miles in the last 15 years.

Rather it is time to pass them along to a younger owner who can enjoy using them for many years to come. I simply don't have the time, nor the desire to give them the TLC they require each year.


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

Gas is $150.40 per litre in Stephenville, Newfoundland today.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

That's it, petrol (gas) has finally broken the £1 barrier! Latest prices are £1.03 per litre in Wales, That's C$2.26 at today's rate...


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## Griller (Jan 17, 2002)

After skipping the 120's and going straight to 133.9 from 118.5, Toronto prices went down a little to 128.9


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

SINC said:


> The price of gas has nothing to do with selling off these collector cars. After all, I have only driven them a few thousand miles in the last 15 years.
> 
> Rather it is time to pass them along to a younger owner who can enjoy using them for many years to come. I simply don't have the time, nor the desire to give them the TLC they require each year.


Ah - that makes more sense. Since you mentioned the sale in a thread titled "Gas!", I just made the connection...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

While we are all quick to holler when gas goes up, strangely no one has posted since it went down.

Price here in St. Albert has now dropped to $1.024 today. I still have to fill the motor home for a trip this weekend and I'm holding out until the last minute in case it drops again.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

.96 somewhere in the GTA was reported


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> While we are all quick to holler when gas goes up, strangely no one has posted since it went down.\


Because the price at the pump still does not reflect the price of a barrel of oil. 
1.20/l is not exactly something to holler about....


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## cheshire_cat (Aug 28, 2005)

99.3 today

went starry eyed for a moment


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Because the price at the pump still does not reflect the price of a barrel of oil.
> 1.20/l is not exactly something to holler about....


But after $1.20 or $1.30 or more, is .99 cents not something to holler about?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> But after $1.20 or $1.30 or more, is .99 cents not something to holler about?


Sinc, if gas prices make it down to 80 cents a litre I will celebrate by driving out West and having a beer with you.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

http://www.torontogasprices.com/

96 a few places.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I'm gonna hold you to that AS!


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> I'm gonna hold you to that AS!


You should - you know I like Warthog Cream Ale.


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

99.1 around here today, awesome!

I have to drive up to Muskoka this weekend.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

99.1 is awesome?

Cripes.

Oil companies must love that people think this way.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

We pay 90¢ CDN per litre at the reservation in Lewiston ( $2.99 US gallon ).


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

$1.169/litre this evening, down significantly from $1.384 (two weeks ago).


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Down again here too. Now $1.004/Liter.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Hasn't gotten any lower than $1.15/ltr here in Halifax, with a high of $1.19 at most locations.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

$.999 up here in Shangri-la today, but only in one little secret place...

$.995 in "the hawg" on tuesday - kingston rd.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Lars, I "feel your pain". It is stuck at 1.21 here in St.John's. Still, we can go atop Signal Hill, and with some strong binoculars, see the Hibernia oil tankers taking East Coast crude oil for refining..........and then shipping to the US. Is it the same situation with off-shore NS gas and oil?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

My wife traded in her VW Beetle at the end of the lease. It was a fine car and very good on gas. This is what she replaced it with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://us.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/funonwheels/09/16/bugatti_veyron/index.html

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Volkswagen's latest product probably won't be very good on gas and it has a rather high price tag. But that hasn't stopped a handful of people from putting down payments on the car before production started earlier this month. 

Each Bugatti Veyron 16.4 will cost an estimated $1.24 million, according to media reports. For that, buyers will get an all-wheel-drive two-seat sports car with a lightweight carbon-fiber body and 16-cylinder engine capable of producing 1,001 horsepower.
________________________________________________

Someone tell me that this is all a dream!!!!!!!! Please!!!!!!!!!!


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

So, Dr. G., when can I come over for a ride?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I gassed up the land yacht this morning and paid 98.4/liter so I am glad I waited the extra week.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

ErnstNL, it is still in production. As well, with Dottie's Potties all over St.John's, she may not want to ride it in our fair city. We shall see.


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## draz (Jun 13, 2005)

To be honest...we are being screwed on prices..but not as badly as Europe!!

I still have my SUV with a 6.0L V8 as well as my sedan with a 4.2L V8 so if these prices raise i will start drilling myself.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

draz said:


> To be honest...we are being screwed on prices..but not as badly as Europe!!
> 
> I still have my SUV with a 6.0L V8 as well as my sedan with a 4.2L V8 so if these prices raise i will start drilling myself.


In my opinion, draz, we *are* being completely screwed, but not likely in the way you think we are.

Oil is a totally finite resource and the world has used up about half of it in little over a hundred years, the bulk of that in the last 30 or 40. Of the half that's left, only a portion of that, nobody knows for sure, but for the sake of argument let's say 75%, can be economically brought out of the ground for less energy used than we can get out of the final product. With massively increasing demand worldwide that 75% of one half will not last another 30 or 40 years, probably far less.

With all this in mind, how on earth did those who are in charge of things allow it to be sold for next to nothing for the last 20 years? This made a lot of people think that there was no problem buying V8 engines and using as much as they could get their hands on. When someone is running out of money in their bank account and they know it has to last a whole lot longer, does it make sense to go on a spending spree? Up until now, we've been like drunks at a party, guzzling away, thinking that the champagne would just keep flowing. Soon we will wake up with a hangover (just like your little squirrel  ).

Even if the world supply of oil actually was endless, governments have subsidized the oil industry and have not made the consumers of oil pay for the huge costs associated with the large scale burning of it. If costs to the environment in terms of air pollution and global warming are factored in, the real cost should add another $1 to $4 a litre on to the price at the pump.

So for years, instead of screwing those who want to burn a lot of fossil fuels, we have unwisely chosen instead to screw the environment and now we are starting to see the cost of that. So we pay either way.

In Europe, they have paid higher taxes on fuel and some of those taxes have been used to mitigate some of the costs as well as help to provide them with a superior transit and rail infratructure, so now as the cost rises, they have a few alternatives. I would say they've screwed themselves less than we have.

Maybe for a start if we stop subsidizing the oil industry and auto use, we might save some money that we could use extricating ourselves from this mess.

A .pdf from the International Centre for Technology Assessment outlines the details.


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## Eukaryotic (Jan 24, 2005)

Fuel economy

<http://www.consumerreports.org/main/content/display_report.jsp?FOLDER<>
folder_id=772749&bmUID=1126544226787>
October 2005

Why you're not getting the mpg you expect

For years, automakers have been criticized for producing vehicles
that get so-so gas mileage. But as gas prices climb and consumers
seek more miles per gallon, it turns out that fuel economy is much
worse than it appears--50 percent less on some models, a new Consumer
Reports analysis reveals.

Drivers who track their own fuel economy have long known that their
results seldom match the gas mileage claimed by the Environmental
Protection Agency on new-car stickers. Our study, based on years of
real-world road tests over thousands of miles, quantifies the problem
across a wide swath of makes and models.

We compared the claimed EPA fuel economy with the mileage per gallon
we measured for 303 cars and trucks for model-years 2000 to 2006. Our
selection represents a good cross-section of mainstream, high-volume
vehicles. We looked at city, highway, and overall mpg.

Highlights of our study:

* Shortfalls in mpg occurred in 90 percent of vehicles we tested and
included most makes and models.

* The largest discrepancy between claimed and actual mpg involved
city driving. Some models we tested fell short of claimed city mpg by
35 to 50 percent.

* Hybrids, whose selling point is fuel thriftiness, had some of the
biggest disparities, with fuel economy averaging 19 mpg below the EPA
city rating.

* The EPA ratings are the result of 1970s-era test assumptions that
don't account for how people drive today. Automakers also test
prototype vehicles that can yield better mileage than a consumer
could get.

* Despite federal certification, it appears that U.S. vehicle fleets,
all cars and light trucks produced in one model year, don't meet
government fuel-economy standards. For example, fleet mpg for
2003-model-year vehicles we studied was overstated by 30 percent.

For consumers, the news means that their vehicles typically cost
hundreds more per year to operate than they were led to believe. Put
another way, when gas in August 2005 hit $2.37 per gallon, the mpg
shortchange effectively boosted the price for some motorists to $3.13
per gallon.

For the nation, where the fleet average fuel economy is near its
lowest point in 17 years, the findings suggest that the country is
far short of its energy goals.

"We are concerned about the differences," Margo Oge, director of the
EPA's Office of Transportation and Air Quality, said of our study. "I
think we can do a better job to help consumers assess actual fuel
economy."


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

HOLY CRAP 1.79 IN WINDSOR!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Just one more example of the Liberals allowing big oil to gouge you.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Just one more example of the Liberals allowing big oil to gouge you.


Exxon will be making 10billions $ profit in the next quarter - this is in the US...


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

I went and filled up both cars and all our gas cans at 104.5 "just incase".


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

And I have to travel 454 km to Fort McMurray in the morning? Yikes!


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

1.27

considering the price of crude oil, cheap.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

3 years later, and the prices continue to rise. Are about where they were after Katrina here in TO.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I am just outside of Hamilton and it is 125.6 here. What I dont get is how Diesel is more expensive at 139.9 here. Diesel is just less refined gasoline. Makes no sense why it would be more. Maybe they figure most Diesel users can write it off?


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

1.35 in North Van (while on my way home from work at 2:30 am)

Here, gas prices always seems to go up late at night for some reason. I believe it may have been 1.30 when I was driving in to work at around 6:30 pm.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

$4.05US per gallon at the cheapie pump it yerself station. The other day I paid $3.99, and noticed the prices go up a few cents every week. Thank goddess I drive a Yaris!

Edited to add: 

I found a nifty mileage calculator that will compute the cost of driving between cities, but you have to convert your liters to gallons.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> I am just outside of Hamilton and it is 125.6 here. What I dont get is how Diesel is more expensive at 139.9 here. Diesel is just less refined gasoline. Makes no sense why it would be more. Maybe they figure most Diesel users can write it off?


Diesels generally get better mileage. Perhaps this is a not so discreet way of wringing every last cent from the consumer.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Too many people were buying diesel vehicles, and they had to do something to stop the bleeding of their bottom line.

And naturally the Feds weren't too upset, given the ad valorem tax structure now in place.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

MissGulch said:


> $4.05US per gallon at the cheapie pump it yerself station. The other day I paid $3.99, and noticed the prices go up a few cents every week. Thank goddess I drive a Yaris!
> 
> Edited to add:
> 
> I found a nifty mileage calculator that will compute the cost of driving between cities, but you have to convert your liters to gallons.


Just so you don't feel so bad paying $4.05/gal, $1.35/litre = $5.11/US gal, assuming the exchange rate is at par.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Bought fuel in Montana for US3.599/US gallon on the weekend. Close to/in Yellowstone it was 3.799. 

Lethbridge is around 1.209 right now.


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

What I love about the whole gas issue: Shell made a $9 BILLION profit last year.

Yeah, they really need to jack up prices for "shortages". If Canada was inhabited only by bulls, there still would not be as much Bulls**t as what comes from the Oil Industry


----------



## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

MacDaddy said:


> What I love about the whole gas issue: Shell made a $9 BILLION profit last year.
> 
> Yeah, they really need to jack up prices for "shortages". If Canada was inhabited only by bulls, there still would not be as much Bulls**t as what comes from the Oil Industry


well, it ain't gonna last long, twenty years from now, the industry will collapse. Good run though.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

MacDaddy said:


> What I love about the whole gas issue: Shell made a $9 BILLION profit last year.
> 
> Yeah, they really need to jack up prices for "shortages". If Canada was inhabited only by bulls, there still would not be as much Bulls**t as what comes from the Oil Industry


I'm the last one to make apologies for the oil industry, but they don't determine the price of a barrel of crude. That price is set by the world market and responds to various things, including good old supply and demand. The oil companies in many cases don't directly own the oil fields that the crude comes from. 

Like most companies that buy and sell I'm sure they have a certain percentage markup that is added on. If barrels of crude are $120 this year and $200 next year then their markup and profit is bound to improve. The only thing that will really affect how much markup they put on is if they are having too much supply sitting around, but I don't think that is going to be the case for some time to come, if ever, with oil being a finite resource.

I guess governments could say to them "You can only make $X dollars profit on each barrel, whether you paid $50, $100 or $200 and that would level out their profits and probably drop some of the increase in petrol prices, but outside of being a big intrusion in the free market (which this lefty doesn't completely hate) I don't see how it benefits society in the long run. Prices on crude are still going to rise as we get closer to the end of oil. Although it hurts, higher oil prices are forcing us to sit up and take notice of what we have to do going into the future and to start seriously looking at the options. The amount of fossil fuel energy we currently needlessly waste through inefficiencies is starting to be addressed right away.

Now if these companies have any brains, they'll know that eventually their windfall is going to decrease and they should find good places to park that money - building and investing in alternative energy tech and infrastructure would be a good choice and some are slowly making that choice.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Most of what you pay at the pump is taxes. Drive to a native reserve. They are still paying 60-70 cents a litre. 

I don't mind the rising prices. It forces innovation and move toward better fuel efficient technologies and vehicles. God knows most people are not buying SUVs because they love the polar bears.  

Hopefully the big oil companies are using these huge profits to develop prototypes for all the alternative fuel engine design patents they have bought up over the years to ensure their future.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Adrian. said:


> Most of what you pay at the pump is taxes. Drive to a native reserve. They are still paying 60-70 cents a litre.
> 
> I don't mind the rising prices. It forces innovation and move toward better fuel efficient technologies and vehicles. God knows most people are not buying SUVs because they love the polar bears.
> 
> Hopefully the big oil companies are using these huge profits to develop prototypes for all the alternative fuel engine design patents they have bought up over the years to ensure their future.


I'll have to take your word for it because I haven't been by one of these in a while, but 60-70 cents seems really low. I thought the discount was more like 15-20% not 50%.

I understand that crude cost, refining and retail mark-up are about 60 to 70% of the final cost and that the other costs are a standard 10 cent federal excise tax (same as when gas was 49.9) plus varying provincial gas taxes plus PST & GST and occasional municipal transit levies (depending on the city). With that formula I don't understand how a native reserve station could sell it for half price.

But you bring up a good point. As well as oil company profits, government tax revenues from gasoline are increasing. I know some of that money is supposed to be going for road infrastructure and things like transit levies are dedicated, but does the other money, especially GST just go into the general pot? If so, we could be using this extra windfall to help invest in and fund alternatives rather just as slush fund for governments to dole out on vote-getting schemes. We won't be getting that windfall forever.

Outside of the US, we still have some of the lowest gasoline prices in the world by a large margin.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Adrian. said:


> Most of what you pay at the pump is taxes. Drive to a native reserve. They are still paying 60-70 cents a litre.


I have to say, I'm sceptical of your claim about 60-70 cents a litre on reserves. I haven't seen that in my own experience. First Nations are just as exposed as everybody else to this uptick in gas prices because it is not tax driven. Taxes represent approximately 35% of the overall price you pay for gas. In the US that's about 20%. And that percentage was before the 2% drop in GST. It's a good sized amount of coin, but it's not the lion's share of the price. 

Growing economies in China and India...the willingness of at least China's command economy to keep paying what the market demands...the devaluing US buck...commodities speculators trying to make a buck on oil futures as a *sure thing*...wars...unrelenting demand for oil in North America...these are among the key factors that keep pushing up prices.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

The uptick of gas prices, yes.

But they don't have to contend with the ad valorem taxes raked-in by the Fed.

They are in the oil/gas business, with both feet, and hands, natch.


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

Adrian. said:


> Most of what you pay at the pump is taxes. Drive to a native reserve. They are still paying 60-70 cents a litre.



As a lucky fellow who has a native better half I can tell you that the taxes are approximately 20% of the price at the pump. So if the price is $1.25 at the pump we pay $1.00 at litre after the taxes are removed. It stays around the 20% value for any price over $.70 as the GST is a percentage - anything below that the "discount" actually becomes larger because the road taxes are a fixed price not a percentage of the gas price.

Oh, and to get the taxes removed you can't just drive to reserve and fill up - you also have to be a card carrying status native.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

Now if only Royal Enfield could import their motorcycles to Canada again,
We could get the Royal Enfield motorcycle with the Hatz Diesel engine.

170 mpg would be nice.

Dave


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

MasterBlaster said:


> Never a dull moment.


no sh*t



MasterBlaster said:


> and other stuff at their reduced rate


I 

i want in


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Thieves Increasingly Drilling Into Fuel Tanks To Steal Gas

... and this is at $4 for a US gallon. Wonder what we'll be looking at when it hits $10? Removable fuel tanks that you store in your house to keep them safe?


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> Most of what you pay at the pump is taxes. Drive to a native reserve. They are still paying 60-70 cents a litre.


I was on the Reserve just the other day, and gas prices were in the $1.08 range - which is the same 20 cent gap that has long existed. Most of the high cost is just because speculators have bid up the entire market.



> Hopefully the big oil companies are using these huge profits to develop prototypes for all the alternative fuel engine design patents they have bought up over the years to ensure their future.


Alternative fuels are going to go no where because the auto makers are on collusion with the big oil companies. The Americans spent untold billions on their PNGV program - and lots of prototypes were shown off. But when it comes down to the crunch, General Motors still sells their fifty year old V-8 engines to a clueless public that really doesn't care about tomorrow, let alone next week.

The real spur is the fact that the Japanese makers have been pushing the technology significantly - and their very practical and usable systems will soon push the Detriot dinosaurs out of the way. Of course, the dinosaurs will still get their way - they will simply thwart any attempt at making alternative fuels viable for public transit, which they have done for years.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Prayer at the pump



> Rocky Twyman says nothing else has worked, so he's urging motorists to pray for lower gasoline prices when they fuel up.
> 
> Twyman says he and his fellow volunteers at a church soup kitchen launched "Pray at the Pump" today at a gas station in Washington D.C.
> 
> ...


Just think ... these folks will be voting in a few short months for the President of the United States ...


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

> There was no immediate answer,


Love it. Guess they jess gotta pray harder next time.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Prayer at the pump


I do it the other way around: I thank god that I drive a fuel sippin' Yaris *before *I gas up.


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

*Less driving seems like a good idea, if it is possible.*

It would appear that we actually drive very little. We purchased fuel on June 19th for a total price of $67.64 (I think it was $144.9/litre, but I'm not too sure as I really don't pay attention). According to my records our last fuel purchase was on April 25th at a total price of $65.61. Almost eight weeks between fill ups.

I guess we really don't drive much! That and our little diesel powered VW Golf gets pretty good fuel mileage (maybe one of these years I might consider calculating some sort of value).

James


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> The prayers at gas pumps were probably done by hummer drivers and members of the NRA. The same people that voted for Bush, twice?


More likely low wage rural people that drive gas guzzling beaters and can't afford to replace them. These are the people that gave Bush the nod, so pretty much run the country. 



> Trade in the SUV for a small hybrid and shut up already!


How long would it take to pay off a Prius when you make $6.50 an hour? Hmmm.....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"How long would it take to pay off a Prius when you make $6.50 an hour? Hmmm....." My wife wants us to buy a Prius, but we only drive about 5000km a year, and it makes more sense to buy a far less expensive energy-efficient car than this sort of car. The best way I find to save gas is just not to drive, but rather, walk or ride my bike. This is not an option for everyone, but it works for me.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I'm the last one to make apologies for the oil industry, but they don't determine the price of a barrel of crude. That price is set by the world market and responds to various things, including good old supply and demand.


If that were only true. The truth is that the cost of gas is in the hand of market speculators, which, like any market analyst, can know what they are talking about, or have no clue what they are talking about, and can inflate costs for no reason. They base their speculation on fears about the middle-east, fears about a hurricane hitting the Bay of Mexico, news from China, fear of Russia starting the cold war over again, the moon is blue, and other mis-information, as well as factual info on supply and demand. It's strange how OPEC has said there is no shortage, demand for gas is down, etc. and gas prices never come down. In fact gas prices always seem to increase because of X, Y, and Z, but never come down after X, Y, or Z is over. For instance, gas prices went up after Hurricane Katrina, due to the refineries and oil platforms being hit, but it never came down after.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Kosh said:


> GratuitousApplesauce said:
> 
> 
> > I'm the last one to make apologies for the oil industry, but they don't determine the price of a barrel of crude. That price is set by the world market and responds to various things, including good old supply and demand.
> ...


"That price is set by the world market and responds to various things, including good old supply and demand.

I'm the last one to make apologies for the supposed "invisible hand" of the free market working to perfection ... well, because it often doesn't.


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

if you didn't drive like an idiot you wudn't have such a high fuel consumption

YouTube - Top Gear Toyota Prius vs BMW M3


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

spitfire1945 said:


> if you didn't drive like an idiot you wudn't have such a high fuel consumption
> 
> YouTube - Top Gear Toyota Prius vs BMW M3


I can not believe you put "idiot" and "wudn´t" in the same sentence. So ironic.

The video is true enough but try getting behind a M3 and driving it that slow . I had an Audi RS4, its competition, and the rare chance that I did drive it (I live in Tdot) and would most likely get a speeding ticket. So, Ive sold the bloody thing to my cousin.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> So, I've sold the bloody thing to my cousin.


Don't like him either, eh?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I want one....give the finger to the oil companies... 

Like this a lot 


> *Norwegian company Th!nk is hoping to kick start the market for electric cars with its upcoming five-seater, the Ox.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I'm the last one to make apologies for the supposed "invisible hand" of the free market working to perfection ... well, because it often doesn't.


No apology needed. 

I probably was agreeing with you more than disagreeing with you, although I may have made it sound like I was disagreeing with you and being hard-handed. Sorry about that...

The market just makes no sense sometimes.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> My wife wants us to buy a Prius, but we only drive about 5000km a year


Why on earth would she want a Prius in your situation?

if you are only putting on 5000 km / year the fuel savings over your Echo would be negligible, so you would never save any money.

I don't think it would be environmentally sound when you consider the energy used to build and deliver the car. I can't imagine having the car sit for a long time is good for the battery either.

Nobody drives a Prius for performance or luxury. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I can't imagine anyone chooses one for styling, either.

Hybrids make sense in some applications - taxicabs come to mind - but they aren't the answer in all cases.



Dr.G. said:


> ...and it makes more sense to buy a far less expensive energy-efficient car than this sort of car.


Agreed!



Dr.G. said:


> The best way I find to save gas is just not to drive, but rather, walk or ride my bike. This is not an option for everyone, but it works for me.


Agreed! If you only drive a couple of thousand miles per year, you can roll a Hummer and still boast about your green credentials...


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Kosh said:


> No apology needed.
> 
> I probably was agreeing with you more than disagreeing with you, although I may have made it sound like I was disagreeing with you and being hard-handed. Sorry about that...
> 
> The market just makes no sense sometimes.


No problem. I thought you hadn't noticed what I had said ... so ... anyway, ... back to more posts on gas.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> I want one....give the finger to the oil companies...
> 
> Like this a lot


I like them too. That charging time looks incredible ... and they still haven't come up with the EEstor yet (if ever).


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> My wife wants us to buy a Prius, but we only drive about 5000km a year, and it makes more sense to buy a far less expensive energy-efficient car than this sort of car.


It makes no sense to me buying an expensive car like a Prius when you drive so little, and you pay a premium for the battery. I drive a Toyota Yaris and very happy with it. People also like the Honda Fit as well, and hypermiling techniques can get you gas mileage similar to the official mileage of the Prius. There are many energy efficient gasoline cars to chose from these days. 

On the other car subject: the black model Ox looks like a skunk to me.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

MissGulch said:


> On the other car subject: the black model Ox looks like a skunk to me.


I wonder if it comes with the option of a stinky spray valve to use against tailgating Hummers.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Why on earth would she want a Prius in your situation?

if you are only putting on 5000 km / year the fuel savings over your Echo would be negligible, so you would never save any money."

Agreed, PB. Luckily, I think that I am going to win this debate.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah just wait on a plug in electric and wave goodbye to gas stations for good. Coming soon to a driveway near you.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Change, on that massive a scale, scares the hell of of financial planners in Government.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Gonna have to rethink road taxes - 407 might be wave of the future - special transponder for EVs??


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Gonna have to rethink road taxes - 407 might be wave of the future - special transponder for EVs??


all this is going to do is push more people on to local roads where cars will waste more gas and cause more pollution especially with Toronto's new decree of putting lights every 200m's.

Laterz


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

Electric cars are USELESS, and so is a Prius. I feel sorry for whoever that has one. I feel sorry especially for Leonardo DiCaprio who thinks having THREE Priuses is kool. H2O powered cars are actually neat and can be useful, if the technology ever gets perfected. 

I am a bit of a petrol head and to me cars are all about power and performance and that's what they were built to be.. well.. for enthusiasts at least. These electric cars are neither safe nor they have performance! HELL their ride quality is worse than a horse buggy and getting from A to B feels like a ride through hell!! Smart car was a HUGE disappointment when I test drove it. 

Just treat your car well and don't floor it please. Change your gears ~2500 RPMs and ease that gas pedal. You will save more gas and your car will run a lot healthier and longer.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

London had it the right way with this :

Mundo Motor al minuto » London declares free parking for electric cars a success, cancels program


I doubt we will see any time soon electric cars on the streets of Canada, especially Ontario until our government stops giving the big three and the US a BJ under the table. We have a Canadian company that makes electric cars and cannot get a permit to sell them in Canada so they are going into Europe! Bull ****! 

I guess corruption is the means of production round these parts...Im moving to Europe. Screw this stupid government.


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

Adrian. said:


> I guess corruption is the means of production round these parts...Im moving to Europe. Screw this stupid government.


Good luck paying the congestion charge on the streets of London and good luck driving in the most car unfriendly place in the world (Especially Oxford) also.. good luck because their misery(ministry) of transportation is lead by a bunch of chaps called Darling and Ladyman (He owns a Skoda and has 9 offences on his license bahaha).... and enjoy those speed cameras planted all along the M25 highway. 

...I am serious.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

spitfire1945 said:


> Electric cars are USELESS, and so is a Prius. I feel sorry for whoever that has one. I feel sorry especially for Leonardo DiCaprio who thinks having THREE Priuses is kool. H2O powered cars are actually neat and can be useful, if the technology ever gets perfected.
> 
> I am a bit of a petrol head and to me cars are all about power and performance and that's what they were built to be.. well.. for enthusiasts at least. These electric cars are neither safe nor they have performance! HELL their ride quality is worse than a horse buggy and getting from A to B feels like a ride through hell!! Smart car was a HUGE disappointment when I test drove it.
> 
> Just treat your car well and don't floor it please. Change your gears ~2500 RPMs and ease that gas pedal. You will save more gas and your car will run a lot healthier and longer.



I sold a 2006 Audi RS4 (420 BHP) and I think I am going to pick up a Smart Car maybe or I might just look into Zip Cars. Either way, I will be going from a very well tuned performance car to a 4 banger probably around 100 BHP that might be able to keep up with that Audi until...I dunno....2nd gear... 

I am am such a car enthusiast it is not even funny. I went to Holland with my dad to see the unveiling of the new Spyker C12. Nonetheless, sports cars are not feasible anymore both economically and environmentally. That car was insance insurance and insane amounts of gasoline, affecting both my criteria negatively. 

As far as being environmentally conscious, the best thing I could have done was kept the car and drove it like a stroller until it was 35 years old. That would have reduced my carbon consumption the most. I sold it to my cousin who doesn´t really drive that much so I don´t feel as bad anyways. 

I made a decision that a social statement, an environmental statement and a valued statement needs to be made. I gave up a car I planned to buy for 6 years to make that statement. Our values is where we differ, not our passion my friend.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

spitfire1945 said:


> Good luck paying the congestion charge on the streets of London and good luck driving in the most car unfriendly place in the world (Especially Oxford) also.. good luck because their misery(ministry) of transportation is lead by a bunch of chaps called Darling and Ladyman (He owns a Skoda and has 9 offences on his license bahaha).... and enjoy those speed cameras planted all along the M25 highway.
> 
> ...I am serious.


If I moved to Europe it would not be London. I have french and spanish as well so I could live most places. Maybe Granada or La Bouille. London is far too expensive for what its worth. Rather live in Moscow.


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

Adrian. said:


> Our values is where we differ, not our passion my friend.


Fair enough.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Adrian. said:


> I doubt we will see any time soon electric cars on the streets of Canada, especially Ontario until our government stops giving the big three and the US a BJ under the table. We have a Canadian company that makes electric cars and cannot get a permit to sell them in Canada so they are going into Europe!


The government will never willingly give up control of telling us what to buy, and how much to pay.

They love the taxes too much.

And an essentially maintenance-free car, that lasts for years and years, is not in their budget.


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

Dr.G. said:


> "Why on earth would she want a Prius in your situation?
> 
> if you are only putting on 5000 km / year the fuel savings over your Echo would be negligible, so you would never save any money."
> 
> Agreed, PB. Luckily, I think that I am going to win this debate.


not to mention that you can buy a lot of gas with the $10,000 premium for the Prius.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

jeepguy said:


> not to mention that you can buy a lot of gas with the $10,000 premium for the Prius.


It's funny, everyone seems to mention the "$10,000 price premium" for a Prius - though no one really mentions the "$30,000 price premium" for a Cadillac, which is a reheated Chevy (anyone remember the Catera, which was an Opel Kadette for twice the price, or the one that they had in the early 80's that was a poorly jazzed up version of the J6000?), nor do they mention the price premium for a H2 Hummer, which is a boxy version of a Tahoe.

An Echo/Yaris/Vitz offers excellent fuel mileage as it is. A Prius is less about saving a wad of cash, and more about having a vehicle for the technophiles in life. A Prius owner is generally someone with some amount of wealth or a fairly high paying job. The people that want a vehicle that has the best mileage for the buck generally will buy a Golf TDI.

So perhaps a Prius purchaser is less interested in about how much money they will save, because if someone really wanted to save money and the environment, they would not own a car - which would cut out the cost of the vehicle and repairs, insurance and fuel. And they are a proven seller, seeing that they are still hard to get because they are selling everything they make.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Hence some cause for the price premium.

Low volume production.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

spitfire1945 said:


> Electric cars are USELESS, and so is a Prius. I feel sorry for whoever that has one. I feel sorry especially for Leonardo DiCaprio who thinks having THREE Priuses is kool. H2O powered cars are actually neat and can be useful, if the technology ever gets perfected.
> 
> I am a bit of a petrol head and to me cars are all about power and performance and that's what they were built to be.. well.. for enthusiasts at least. These electric cars are neither safe nor they have performance! HELL their ride quality is worse than a horse buggy and getting from A to B feels like a ride through hell!! Smart car was a HUGE disappointment when I test drove it.
> 
> Just treat your car well and don't floor it please. Change your gears ~2500 RPMs and ease that gas pedal. You will save more gas and your car will run a lot healthier and longer.


Ahmen!

Laterz


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Um fundamentally an electric with max torque at zero speed will blow off almost any petrol pooper.









Current Eliminator V with speedy racer Dennis Berube.



> Tucson (AZ) - An all-electric dragster named Current Eliminator V, has set a National Hot Rod Association's Super Pro class quarter-mile world speed record. Coming in at 8.10 seconds, and a top speed of 153.6 mph, the car, driven by Dennis Berube, was powered by the same type of battery which accelerated the Killacycle to a whopping 168 mph in 7.824 seconds in a quarter mile just a month prior.
> 
> Altair Nanotechnologies, Inc., provided the high-performance lithium-titanate battery pack and energy storage products. Previous runs made at the Speedworld Motorplex in Wittmann (about 150 miles from Tucson) by Berube included runs of 10.04, 8.84, 8.40 and 8.23 seconds. In 2006, the Current Eliminator V's predecessor, the Current Eliminator IV, earned more prize money than any other dragster in Arizona.
> 
> In the Super Pro class, Berube routinely and successfully competed against both gasoline and alcohol fueld internal combustion engine dragsters. Berube is an accomplished driver, and also a founding competitor in the National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) with many awards, trophies and credits to his name.


If you happen on a mild looking vehicle with an EV badge on it, you might wanna not do the blip blip thingy for fear of looking foolish. 

and they are just getting started.......


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

EvanPitts said:


> The people that want a vehicle that has the best mileage for the buck generally will buy a Golf TDI.


Sadly the TDI isn't available, didn't meet emissions 2007/2008  , it may return in 2009. Even smart dropped the Diesel for 2008 in Canada.

or how about this little baby 1.3L TDI 75mpg


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

MacDoc said:


> Um fundamentally an electric with max torque at zero speed will blow off almost any petrol pooper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


where would I put my groceries


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

SMART CAR IS NOT SAFE. HOW MAN BLOODY TIMES HAVE I SAID THIS!!! quit mentioning that as an alternative!!

Have you seen the crumple zones on that thing?! Its rubbish!


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Settle down. Holding your breath will not stem the tide.


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

iJohnHenry said:


> Settle down. Holding your breath will not stem the tide.


I am going blue!


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Cool. Before you pass out, can I have your MBP??


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

iJohnHenry said:


> Cool. Before you pass out, can I have your MBP??


No, according to my will it goes to the poor children in Africa.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Hmm batting zero .....



> Tiny Smart car gets crash test kudos
> 
> *The Smart ForTwo earns the top rating for front and side impact protection in crash tests by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.*
> 
> ...


Watch the video
Free Video - Business and personal finance news from CNNMoney


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

spitfire1945 said:


> SMART CAR IS NOT SAFE. HOW MAN BLOODY TIMES HAVE I SAID THIS!!! quit mentioning that as an alternative!!
> 
> Have you seen the crumple zones on that thing?! Its rubbish!


Read my post, i was only saying that they *dropped diesel*, besides it's safer than many alternatives. I looked at the smart car when I bought my new car (2008 VW Rabbit) in February, and didn't feel safe in the *winter*, I commute 200km round trip a day.

P.S maybe I should give up my Ninja, and Hawk, they have no crumple zones too


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

(Decided to post this in "Why is it that ...".)


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

$1.58 a litre today here on my little island. (Of course they usually add .10 / litre on top to cover barging the fuel here.)


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