# Wind Turbines - Clean energy of the future!



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> In Denmark wherever you go you will see huge wind turbines everywhere. They now supply I think 20 to 30 percent of Denmarks electric power needs.


DANISH WIND INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION - Did you know?


> wind power covers *almost* 20% of the Danish power consumption





MasterBlaster said:


> Wind co-ops take the power grid monopoly away from the giant corporations and put it into the hands of the people through co-op ownership.


Actually, no. The power grid is still owned by whoever built it. It is never 'owned' by the co-op. Power generation is taken away from other power generation companies.



MasterBlaster said:


> It also creates a lot of employment


Short term construction employment. Long-term, jobs would just move from older power generation to newer power generation facilities.



MasterBlaster said:


> In my opinion put up as many wind turbines as possible.


Where? 'Everywhere' really isn't a place. Who's land? What are the wind currents like in available areas?



MasterBlaster said:


> Then expand public transportation with electric trolley buses, subway, and skytrain systems.


Who's paying for this infrastructure? Toronto can't even afford to expand it's existing public transit infrastructure. Now you want somebody to spend money on building a new power generation system, and build new transit infrastructure?



MasterBlaster said:


> Also, expand our railway systems and make it so that they move both lots of people and lots of freight powered by electricity from the wind turbine farms.


Again, who is going to pay to develop this infrastructure? Perhaps you would be agreeable to a tax increase?


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Again, who is going to pay to develop this infrastructure? Perhaps you would be agreeable to a tax increase?


Absolutely!
I already pay extra for green electricity. (Bullfrog Power). Bring it on! More windmills = less BS!


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Imagine the news...

2005 - Global warming - the rising threat to our planet.
2010 - Construction starts for 10MW wind farm.
2020 - New 10MW wind farm hearlded as the ultimate weapon against Global Warming.
2040 - 25 years of drastically altered wind currents -- Global warming had nothing compared to this new threat.

There's just no winning folks as long as we're addicted to any form of energy and as long as there are so many of us on this planet.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

dona83 said:


> Imagine the news...
> 
> 2005 - Global warming - the rising threat to our planet.
> 2010 - Construction starts for 10MW wind farm.
> ...


This is a big fat red herring (a type of fallacy) and nothing more.
Fallacy: Red Herring


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Britain is planning to go all wind for home electricity.



> Britain to shift to offshore wind farms by 2020
> Goal is to cover all British homes, but industry is short of turbines
> Image: Offshore wind turbines
> Vestas Wind Systems
> ...


Bullfrog is no great burden at all and will only get cheaper. A number of my clients have signed on and it's pretty easy to get back to the old cost by changing some habits....clothes line for instance and low energy lights.

Now if Canada had been on the ball we could be building wind turbines in Ontario to meet worldwide demand by now instead of dealing with idjits like Harper.

There is this little item of the St. Lawrence Seaway that allows us low cost shipping of such large structures anywhere in the world.

I tell you, if this gov had to build the Seaway from scratch....they'd find an excuse to do nothing.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

guytoronto said:


> DANISH WIND INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION - Did you know?


I wonder how much of that is marketting and how much of that is fact. From the news and documentary shows that I've watched on wind power most people say they can't stand the sound and that you can hear the wind turbines for miles. It's so much of a problem that they can't find land sites for them. It may be a good idea to find water sites for them, but then salt water can't be good for them. Salt water would erode them faster.



Macdoc said:


> Now if Canada had been on the ball we could be building wind turbines in Ontario to meet worldwide demand by now instead of dealing with idjits like Harper.


It might have something to do with the problem that nobody wants them around due to the noise.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Kosh said:


> I wonder how much of that is marketting and how much of that is fact. From the news and documentary shows that I've watched on wind power most people say they can't stand the sound and that you can hear the wind turbines for miles. It's so much of a problem that they can't find land sites for them. It may be a good idea to find water sites for them, but then salt water can't be good for them. Salt water would erode them faster.
> 
> 
> 
> It might have something to do with the problem that nobody wants them around due to the noise.


The downtown (exhibition place) windmill is not noisy. Perhaps there are a bunch of chicken littles running around. Next time you are in Toronto, check out our windmills and judge for yourself. I think this is more from the "anything to keep the status quo" crowd or worse from the companies who have a vested interest in the status quo. (read oil companies). Certainly the noise from roads is worse than the windmills I've heard. By far...


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Ontario wind farms creating huge gusts of opposition



> "You should come here today and hear the bugger squeal," the retired industrial engineer says of the EPCOR wind turbine located about 300 metres from his rural property just outside Goderich, Ont. "I can see about 11 of them from my house and they all make noise though we were told there would be no problems at all."
> The first phase of EPCOR's Kingsbridge Wind Power Project consists of 22 turbines with a generating capacity of 39.6 megawatts. Marshall would like to see them all dismantled.
> "But that's not going to happen. We're going to have to move out. My wife is complaining she hasn't had a good night's sleep since we came back from Florida at the end of March and it was running."


Consultant to study wind farm noise

And I seem to remember a W5 episode on the topic.



> "When you get more than one turbine together, noise from the two combines and you get a rumble," Palmer added. "People describe it as an endless train."


I'm not saying we shouldn''t invest in them, but it's going to be hard to find spots for them.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

Kosh said:


> I wonder how much of that is marketting and how much of that is fact. From the news and documentary shows that I've watched on wind power most people say they can't stand the sound and that you can hear the wind turbines for miles.


Some friends of mine in Upstate New York live in an area where a wind farm is being pushed. I have been told many times over the past couple of years that living anywhere near them isn't easy. There is a constant low-pitch grinding sound, and an almost infrasound _whump whump whump_ each time one of the blades passes by the support tower - and it's enough to drive you nuts. Don't get me wrong, I like windmills and the idea of wind farms but hearing such comments I've heard have tempered my admiration to a degree.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Now if Canada had been on the ball we could be building wind turbines in Ontario to meet worldwide demand by now instead of dealing with idjits like Harper.


Harper, Harper, Harper! Christ! Your buddy Dalton has been in power for a lot longer than him, why aren't you on his back? Or do you like the coal plants he didn't shut down?


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

There are many of them on the outskirts of Pincher Creek, Alberta set high on a foothill into the westerly winds which blow the majority of the time.

If you stop your vehicle and get out to take a picture, the whoosh, whoosh, whoosh sounds are nearly unbearable and I can't imagine living anywhere near them.

That being said, if they are placed away from populated areas, I still think they are a great and green idea.
But make no mistake, they are VERY noisy and much more annoying than highway traffic because it never varies. Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh for hours on end.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

JumboJones said:


> Harper, Harper, Harper! Christ! Your buddy Dalton has been in power for a lot longer than him, why aren't you on his back? Or do you like the coal plants he didn't shut down?


You see, MacDoc doesn't hate the Liberals. He hates the Conservatives, so he HAS to blame Harper.

McGuinty? Ppffh. Like he could accomplish anything.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Trying to deflect from your buddy Harper??? how trite - point the finger everywhere but at the root cause - failure to act by Harper and Alberta leadership....

McGuinty is not immune in the least but Ontario also gets a decent green report card and is not sitting on billions in surplus and the power to introduce nationwide legislation.

Ontario is already taking steps - lots more than many realize



> Complaining the federal Conservatives aren't doing enough to combat climate change, the Ontario government said yesterday it will join an emissions cutting program launched by several U.S. states.
> 
> The program, which so far includes New York and eight other northeastern states, puts an absolute cap on emissions from electricity generating stations and would allow those that are below their targets to sell credits to those that are above.


and green tech



> A new $650-million fund will secure the next generation of high-paying jobs for Ontarians by developing clean and green technologies and businesses right here in Ontario, says Premier Dalton McGuinty.
> 
> "There's a huge opportunity out there and Ontario is determined to seize it for our people and our economy," McGuinty said.
> 
> ...


and anyone in Canada can take advantage of Bullfrog Power and many are
Bullfrog Power Home Page - 100% Green Electricity

Other steps



> Government buildings at Queen's Park will receive their cooling from Enwave's deep lake cooling system, cutting energy demand for cooling by 90 per cent.
> 
> A new regulation allows net metering, which provides credit to customers who generate their own power from renewable sources for any excess electricity they put back into the grid.
> 
> ...


*and that would be why the green report card is positive for Ontario.....*

Now back to our regularly scheduled program......


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Now back to our regularly scheduled program......


Thank goodness. I get soooooooo tired of all those words being thrown at us in your posts.

Try stating YOUR opinion without the verbage. I might even read it.
:yawn: :yawn:


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

So what the Liberals do is enough for you but what the Conservatives do isn't, come on MD, what happened to your "it's never enough" attitude? And from the looks of what the Liberals are doing, it doesn't take much to keep you happy. I'm sure his pen hand is quite tired from all of the promises he's putting his name on, but in any case with a McGuinty promise, I'll believe it when I see it.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

You know I'm all for alternative energies generation. I think that wind generation should definitely be explored. However, as with oil and coal and so on, I don't think that we should be putting all our eggs in one basket.

Also, realistically, all of them will take more time and money that we think. What MasterBlaster wrote off as "negative thinking" are real issues that need to be addressed as all these options are explored.

Just sayin'.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Ok, so we're agreed that there are options. I also think that local options are good options.

But how do you sell local options on a wide scale when they are going to take jobs away from other areas?


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> Europe and Asia have fantastic rail transportation systems, even going under the English Channel. Why can't we have something as cool and as practical also?
> 
> Once it was the national dream to have a coast to coast railroad. Bring in the high tech modern version!


$$$$ Big time $$$$

It would cost a huge amount of money to develop a high speed train line across the country. 

Look at the cost of running something as simple as the West Coast Express from Mission to Vancouver on a mostly flat and straight run. And the price for those tickets are subsidized big time.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> Have more than enough to replace all the polluting and nuclear power generated in Canada.


I think we should be pushing for more nuclear power. It has a very small ecological footprint and is a proven technology. The costs are also fairly reasonable. 

We can deal with the waste issue. 

Nuclear is a big part in solving the carbon emission problem.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MasterBlaster said:


> Put lots of wind turbines, quiets ones hopefully, in place. Have more than enough to replace all the polluting and nuclear power generated in Canada. Then it would be great to build electric freight and high speed electric passenger rail coast to coast and going from major population center to major population center on a large scale.
> 
> This would cut down on highway and air traffic. It would also greatly reduce air pollution and fossil fuel consumption. Europe and Asia have fantastic rail transportation systems, even going under the English Channel. Why can't we have something as cool and as practical also?
> 
> Once it was the national dream to have a coast to coast railroad. Bring in the high tech modern version!


Ok, MB you haven't answered my question at all.

You're big on ideas, I'll give you that, but you don't seem to keen on answering questions about implementation.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MasterBlaster said:


> How come they can do it in Europe and Asia then? Some of those trains I believe are made in Canada too.


In europe there are many cities densely packed. In Canada there are few cities spread far and wide. Oh, and a _lot_ more population in said smaller area to support it and make it worthwhile.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MasterBlaster said:


> I'm just brainstorming PB, to see what we could possibly do to make things better.
> 
> See where we can go if we all put our heads together.
> 
> Its a quantum leap to go from idea to creation of something big. They all start out as ideas.


This is all true, but if the ideas are a bit more thought out in the first place it'd be easier to get where we want to go.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The problem in Canada really is the infrastructure needed to deliver the power to large populations. Wind farms are best suited for smaller communities with lots of nothing located around them. The farm should ideally produce as much as the community needs and no more. Wind farms also fail to produce on demand. When the wind is blowing too hard, they have to be taken offline to prevent the system from being overloaded--there are no great ways to store the excess power.

In Ontario, building a new high tension transmission line requires 10 years--of environmental assessments and approvals, not building the danged thing. Once you plan a new transmission line you can expect roughly a 15 year wait for actual constructionto be completed. There are potential hydro projects in Northern Manitoba that Ontario could take advantage of, but they aren't being built because Ontario wouldn't be buying for more than a decade.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I bought stock in Western Wind Energy, which is into wind turbines, Carmanah Technologies, which is into solar lighting, and ZENN Motor Company, which makes electric cars. All are Canadian and all have, in my opinion, potential to become true players in the "green movement". We shall see.


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

Dr.G. said:


> I bought stock in Western Wind Energy, which is into wind turbines, Carmanah Technologies, which is into solar lighting, and ZENN Motor Company, which makes electric cars. All are Canadian and all have, in my opinion, potential to become true players in the "green movement". We shall see.


I wish you speedy profits! Sorry for being self-serving.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Mississauga, I researched them myself, so I did not get in when the brokers were touting these stocks. Thus, they are all up somewhat. However, I bought them for the long haul and will let them sit and see what they do within 5-10 years. Paix.


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## Seyeklopz (Apr 19, 2008)

If every house had a rooftop windmill and solar panel, it would make a huge difference. Windmills don't have to be arranged in 'farms'. Wind and solar are the ultimate distributed power.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Solar power is of no value here in St.John's, in that we get the least amount of sunshine of any major Canadian city. As well, the wind is so strong that the windmill could never be mounted on the roof, or be ripped off when the gusts went over 130kp/h as they do throughout the year. Still, a pole-mounted windmill would be a great idea.


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## Seyeklopz (Apr 19, 2008)

There are turbines that adapt to the wind speed, but you're right, most roofs aren't structured for a wind loaded pole.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

While I'm all for more wind power and other renewals but bear in mind the scale. ( I buy my power from Bullfrog which is primarily wind powered with some hydro )

Take Ontario - nuclear represents 10,000 megawatts of continuous power.

1,000 megawatts of windpower represents 5,000 acres of or about 200 sq km of wind turbines as they are not continous load.

If you covered ALL of Ontario in water to height of Niagara Falls and dammed it for hydro you would still not reach the current power production of Canada's nuclear plants.

Bottom line - we're going to need all of nuclear and renewable to at least get to the point of eliminating coal and other carbon emitting power sources

Solar is surely an option for personal use tho buying Bullfrog is far simpler and taps into economies of scale especially for Canada where solar is far less efficient.

An interesting strategy is buying Bullfrog which costs the average household about $60 a month more then investing as noted in alternative energy stocks to offset the extra monthly cost.

That way economies of scale are available on both ends.

and that's not even considering what will happen if plugin EVs start to be used over the next few years. 

This might give you an idea of scale










That's a VERY thin green line.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

One big problem with wind is that it doesn't blow all the time, and there is no reasonable way to store the power at this point - batteries and inverters won't cut it on this scale.

This means that other power sources that can be brought on line quickly must be available when the wind stops blowing, such as hydro or natural gas powered plants.

As mentioned earlier, there are some fairly big wind farms in Southern Alberta, unfortunately they can't get much bigger at this point without destabilizing the grid as you can't have too much of the generating capacity fluctuating at random as the winds blow.

Renewables have a role to play, but they are not a panacea. Conservation and nuclear will also be important if we are to get serious about reducing carbon emissions.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Lots of good stuff in this thread.

Clearly a combination of actions is needed to get us a sustainable energy economy, including wind, solar, conservation, and probably other technologies that haven't been discussed, let alone developed.

As much as I admire the developments in Europe and elsewhere in this regard, Canada's situation will demand a novel approach, due to the combination of a very scattered population in a massive country with serious environmental constraints/concerns and limitations. 

Nevertheless, I'm sure we can meet these challenges if our politician's can be dragged - kicking and screaming in Harper's case - out of the beds they're sharing with the fossil-fuel industry.

One of the first things that could be changed is to divert some of the tax revenue that is generated from fuel sales and truck licensing to the rail system. Steel wheels on rails are *vastly* more efficient than rubber tires on asphalt, but trucking companies don't have to pay for highway construction/maintenance* the way rail companies have to pay for laying and maintaining tracks, and that's the main reason transport by rail is more expensive than by truck. Trucks should be for short-range transport from train-stations to final destinations, not for cross-country shipping.

Cheers

*yes, I'm aware that they pay taxes.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

PenguinBoy said:


> One big problem with wind is that it doesn't blow all the time, and there is no reasonable way to store the power at this point - batteries and inverters won't cut it on this scale.


Yes there is. It's called hydrogen. Using electricity to break water into its oxygen and hydrogen components, storing the hydrogen, then using the hydrogen either in a fuel or burning it for heat when needed. This is already being done.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Nice design for that Dubai 'scraper. Still wondering what kind of noise imprint 77 vertically stacked, horizontally oriented, constantly-rotating turbines will produce in the immediate vicinity. Or what kind of maintenance issues might bedevil a building in which every floor has the capacity to rotate individually (possibly at different rates, as well?). At any rate, that's a lot of moving parts. Intriguing modular structure, too - the video is big on presentation and casting first impressions but rather thin on technical specifications.

Very interesting ideas, however.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MB, that was a unique clip re the Dubai skyscraper. Our petrodollars at work.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Yes, I'm sure it is... in theory. As yet, no such building exists, and nasty surprises can await the actual implementation of a design. I'm thinking of engineering mis-steps like Gallopping Gertie. That's doubtless a dramatic example but other, milder ones abound.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The other way of storing wind power is to have the turbines pump water uphill into a storage tank, then release the enrgy as hydro power.

That Dubai 'scraper might wind up doing a Tacoma Narrows Bridge.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Reminds me of Jenga, no way you're getting me in there.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Yes there is. It's called hydrogen. Using electricity to break water into its oxygen and hydrogen components, storing the hydrogen, then using the hydrogen either in a fuel or burning it for heat when needed. This is already being done.


I wasn't aware that current fuel cells were practical for storing energy on this scale, but I'm not up on fuel cell technology. Burning hydrogen that was produced by electrolysis of water is an interesting possibility.

Do you have examples of either approach being used in a large scale installation?



Macfury said:


> The other way of storing wind power is to have the turbines pump water uphill into a storage tank, then release the enrgy as hydro power.


Pump storage could work, but you need to find a place for the reservoir. A more practical approach might be to use wind in conjunction with regular hydro, and simply empty the hydro reservoir more quickly when the wind stops blowing.


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