# Outrageous!!! No nativity scene in Ottawa this year!!



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

No Christmas in our nation's capitol!! 

There will be no Nativity Scene in Ottawa this year! The Court has ruled that there cannot be a Nativity Scene in the Canadian Capital this Christmas. 

This isn't for any religious reason. 

They simply have not been able to find Three Wise Men in the Nation's Capitol. 

A search for a Virgin continues. :heybaby:

There was no problem, however, finding enough asses to fill the stable.  :lmao:


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

likely the truest take on Ottawa in some time around here.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Actually if we give our great multiculturalism experiment enough time, that post will come true. And that's in no way funny.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

It hasn't already come true?

I think it did, years ago before multiculturalism was even dreamed of.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Well... that bit of holiday humour took a record-setting turn to the bigoted, eh?


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

ehMax said:


> No Christmas in our nation's capitol!!
> 
> There will be no Nativity Scene in Ottawa this year! The Court has ruled that there cannot be a Nativity Scene in the Canadian Capital this Christmas.
> 
> ...


If you're referring to a nativity scene in government offices/on government property, then I have no issue with the ban.

The church, and religion, have no business in the government. That extends to Christmas, and other similar events.

People are free to do as they wish in their own homes, however.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

yes it did didn't it.

Perhaps more nog etc. is required or, sumthin'


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> Well... that bit of holiday humour took a record-setting turn to the bigoted, eh?


Well CM, some days folks just don't think it through, never mind to consider the realities. Try moving to a Muslim country and be a guy wearing shorts while having a beer when clam digging on their beaches with a mini Christmas tree by your fire. Think they'll change their laws to protect you? FFC my boy.

If that is bigoted in your opinion, so be it. What it is, is the reality that we give in far too easily and allow what were once our traditions to melt into a giant pot where their imported traditions trump ours. 

In the 1950s communities were truly multicultural. We celebrated Christmas with our Ukrainian and Chinese ( or German or whatever) neighbours, and then they invited us to celebrate Ukrainian Christmas with them and Chinese New Years was always a big deal too. Everyone got along on their own terms and became friends, never forced to bow to questionable laws.

Everyone celebrated without issue and together, learning to appreciate the traditions of one another. Now we have cultural groups suing for and winning new laws to quash other's traditional celebrations entirely. 

"Enjoyable whatevers of the season" to you too dude.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

CubaMark said:


> Well... that bit of holiday humour took a record-setting turn to the bigoted, eh?


I'm speechless. 0-100% bigoted in 2.3 seconds.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

John Clay said:


> If you're referring to a nativity scene in government offices/on government property, then I have no issue with the ban.
> 
> The church, and religion, have no business in the government. That extends to Christmas, and other similar events.
> 
> People are free to do as they wish in their own homes, however.


Holy $#!| man, IT'S A JOKE!!!! Talk about whooshing right over people's head. 

WOW, lighten up people. Have some eggnog.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

While I am not myself Jewish, I married into a wonderful Jewish family and quickly became aware of just how tiny a minority Jews are in this province (BC). Around 35,000 Jews in a province of 4 million.

If anyone here needs a lesson in tolerance, patience and the love of one's fellow man ... try to imagine how many times each of those 35,000 Jews have been wished a Merry Christmas ... and have smiled, said thank you, and wished one back. 

And yes, I *will* have some eggnog!! Cheers!


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Well I had some egg nog (and rum), and had a chuckle without the need to slam other cultures.

I think I'll be having more egg nog today.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Ah xmas.... that annual my-special-friend-is-better-than-your-special-friend smack-down where the xians get to cram their preposterous "vision" in the face of every other culture and no one is supposed to complain.

Merchants unload dreck they couldn't get rid of all year at double the price they are going to ask for the same crap the week after xmas.

Family violence goes up as does suicide, alcohol related carnage and bankruptcy.

Man, them xians sure know how to throw a party!!!!!


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

At first I was like…


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

there's a keeper


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

I liked ehmax's joke... as long as the asses are Liberals.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

ehMax said:


> Holy $#!| man, IT'S A JOKE!!!! Talk about whooshing right over people's head.
> 
> WOW, lighten up people. Have some eggnog.


I can't beleive you would make that joke, which reminds us all of Bethlehem, which reminds us all of Middle East political instability.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

chas_m said:


> While I am not myself Jewish, I married into a wonderful Jewish family and quickly became aware of just how tiny a minority Jews are in this province (BC). Around 35,000 Jews in a province of 4 million.
> 
> If anyone here needs a lesson in tolerance, patience and the love of one's fellow man ... try to imagine how many times each of those 35,000 Jews have been wished a Merry Christmas ... and have smiled, said thank you, and wished one back.
> 
> And yes, I *will* have some eggnog!! Cheers!


You're absolutely right about Jewish people. In my experience they're very tolerant of Christmas. My wife's boss is Jewish and he's a great guy. He'll wish me a Merry Christmas and I'll wish him a happy Hanukkah in return. He even hosts a Christmas Dinner for the girls and they buy each other gifts. Its a two way street though. The girls are good to respect his Jewish customs as well and even attended a few of his families jewish celebrations. 
I listen to a radio station that has a call in show with a prominent Jewish Rabbi and he just sent the staff a big cake with Merry Christmas on it. Thats commendable! In fact, in this country its rarely ever people of other faiths that have a problem with tolerance when it comes to Christmas.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Well... that bit of holiday humour took a record-setting turn to the bigoted, eh?





groovetube said:


> yes it did didn't it.
> 
> Perhaps more nog etc. is required or, sumthin'





ehMax said:


> I'm speechless. 0-100% bigoted in 2.3 seconds.


Sorry guys I don't think there was anying bigoted in SINCS post at all, you guys are a little too sensitive me thinks and he explained his post fully and thoughtfully.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

I would venture to say that when someone of a faith that differs from yours offers you a festive greeting that stems from their beliefs, accepting it in good cheer comes down to good manners and has little to do with tolerance.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacGuiver said:


> listen to a radio station that has a call in show with a prominent Jewish Rabbi and he just sent the staff a big cake with Merry Christmas on it.


The Shmuley Show? If so, I've listened to it as well.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Well I had some egg nog (and rum), and had a chuckle without the need to slam other cultures.
> 
> I think I'll be having more egg nog today.


What cultures did SINC slam... show me?


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

I got the joke, and thought it was funny, but I do think there's something serious here to consider. It's well-illustrated in SINC's statement below:



SINC said:


> Try moving to a Muslim country and ...[doing a bunch of stuff Muslims wouldn't like].


Implicit in this statement is that Canada is a Christian country. While it's perfectly true that the majority of Canadians are Christians, and that one of the great things about Canada is that people are free to practise whatever religion they like, because Canada is a secular state. Indeed, according to the last census data, the second largest demographic is "no religious affiliation."

So it is perfectly reasonable, and I would argue necessary, that public money is not spent on displays religiosity.

I think SINC's intent was that we should all enjoy each other's traditions, religious or otherwise, and I completely agree with that. But it's one thing to enjoy your neighbour's invitation to share their culture, and another to have your government spending your money on something that's none of their business. I'd be just as annoyed if the government started spending public money to eliminate religious adherence, even though I think the world would be a better place without religion. Religion is none of the governments business, and any expenditure of public money on any religious pageantry or projects is inappropriate.

As private citizens it's completely appropriate for us to share our traditions and cultures with anyone who dose not object. Just keep the government out of it.

Cheers


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> Just keep the government out of it.
> 
> Cheers


Keep that in mind with other issues and you'll be just fine!


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

SINC said:


> Well CM, some days folks just don't think it through, never mind to consider the realities. Try moving to a Muslim country and be a guy wearing shorts while having a beer when clam digging on their beaches with a mini Christmas tree by your fire. Think they'll change their laws to protect you? FFC my boy.


That's such a brutal fallacy SINC. Why are you comparing Muslim Canadians to Muslim countries? I see a few really shaky assumptions here: 1) All Muslim countries are hyper-conservative and intolerant of other cultures; 2) All muslim Canadians share the same cultures as the country that they came from (maybe they left for a reason!); 3) There are no other reasons that religious symbology are being removed from public spaces except to appease Muslim (or non-western) populations in Canada. 

SINC, I agree with you that Christmas symbology should remain in public (non-government) spaces. But that sentence comes off as extremely bigoted.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> SINC, I agree with you that Christmas symbology should remain in public (non-government) spaces. But that sentence comes off as extremely bigoted.


Since when is the truth bigotry? There are dozens of other countries in this old world where if you emigrated there and tried to practice the normal daily things you do here, you would be shot or stoned or beheaded for such simple things. That is a fact, and if you think pointing it out is bigotry, you are sadly mistaken.

bryanc on the other hand understood via my example.



bryanc said:


> I think SINC's intent was that we should all enjoy each other's traditions, religious or otherwise, and I completely agree with that.


I get right peed off when special interest groups challenge our laws and win rights that force different culture upon others. ie: no singing of Christmas carols in school. In my daughter's school where she is a grade three teacher, they are forbidden to even use the word Christmas because special interest groups have won and the school board capitulated to their wishes. Move here and join in tradition, not use the law to suit your beliefs would be a much better solution. I celebrate my Jewish and Ukrainian and Muslim friend's special holidays in their homes happily. And yes, I do have Muslim friends.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacGuiver said:


> You're absolutely right about Jewish people. In my experience they're very tolerant of Christmas. My wife's boss is Jewish and he's a great guy. He'll wish me a Merry Christmas and I'll wish him a happy Hanukkah in return. He even hosts a Christmas Dinner for the girls and they buy each other gifts. Its a two way street though. The girls are good to respect his Jewish customs as well and even attended a few of his families jewish celebrations.
> I listen to a radio station that has a call in show with a prominent Jewish Rabbi and he just sent the staff a big cake with Merry Christmas on it. Thats commendable! In fact, in this country its rarely ever people of other faiths that have a problem with tolerance when it comes to Christmas.
> 
> Cheers
> MacGuiver


Good point, MacG.

I have to chuckle every time around Christmas when a student sends in their final via email attachment and wishes me a Merry Christmas. Then, I am sure that someone emails them to let them know that I am Jewish, and the student emails me back to apologize ............ to which I say "No problem. I appreciate the spirit of the wish." 

St.John's has about 150 Jewish people, and NL has maybe 200 Jewish people, so the Jewish faith is not really a factor here. 

So, Happy post-Hanukkah to one and all ............. Merry pre-Christmas to one and all .............. a peaceful time for anyone else ............. and may may this Winter be mild for us all and find us all at the onset of Spring healthier, happier and wiser.

Paix, mes amis.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

SINC said:


> I celebrate my Jewish and Ukrainian and Muslim friends special holidays in their home happily.


_*In their homes*_.

This is the key. 

In public schools, government offices, etc., there should be no exhibition of state sponsored religiosity.

Personally, I think banning Christian Christmas carols in schools is going too far, but I can see the argument. I'd prefer to have schools encouraging a good mix of Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Norse, Satanist, Roman, Wiccan, ... and Secular music (along with a good academic grounding in comparative mythology), but that's obviously not going to happen. So I'd be satisfied with a reasonable mix of solstice music, and an atmosphere where no kid would feel they had to sing something they didn't like and wouldn't fear being picked on for not being a member of the dominant culture. Of course, that's not easy to achieve either, which is why they probably went for the easy (but ultimately ineffective) solution of "no carols."


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

bryanc said:


> _*In their homes*_.


Grammar police on duty today. 

Corrected, thanks.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

SINC said:


> Grammar police on duty today.
> 
> Corrected, thanks.


I wasn't trying to be pedantic about the grammar. I just wanted to emphasize the point that it's great to be invited to celebrate our own or other religious traditions *in our homes* or those of our neighbours. But it's totally inappropriate for the government to promote _any_ religion under any circumstances.

Cheers


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Personally I am inclined to Dionysian....



> Dionysus (pronounced /ˌdaɪəˈnaɪsəs/ dye-ə-NYE-səs; Greek: Διόνυσος, Dionysos) was *the god of the grape harvest, winemaking and wine, of ritual madness and ecstasy,*


sounds like fine fun...in your own home

Bacchanalia anyone?


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

I generally prefer saturnalia but bacchanalia will do in a pinch.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Can't wait for the Feast of Lupercal!


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

The Doug said:


> I generally prefer saturnalia but bacchanalia will do in a pinch.


Yes, my habitual response to "Merry Christmas" is "Jo Saturnalia", but I don't think many people get it.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Happy Festivus everyone!


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

gmark2000 said:


> Happy Festivus everyone!


Festivus for the rest-of-us


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

gmark2000 said:


> Happy Festivus everyone!


Let the Airing of Grievances begin.....


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

rgray said:


> Let the Airing of Grievances begin.....


Following this thread I believe you are using the wrong tense.


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

SINC said:


> ie: no singing of Christmas carols in school. In my daughter's school where she is a grade three teacher, they are forbidden to even use the word Christmas because special interest groups have won and the school board capitulated to their wishes.


If it makes you feel better we do sing Christmas carols at our school's "holiday assembly". And I call the upcoming break "Christmas" or "holidays" essentially at random when talking with students. I have yet to be tackled and tasered by the special interest groups


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

SINC said:


> Since when is the truth bigotry? There are dozens of other countries in this old world where if you emigrated there and tried to practice the normal daily things you do here, you would be shot or stoned or beheaded for such simple things. That is a fact, and if you think pointing it out is bigotry, you are sadly mistaken.


I don't think you got what I was saying. The gross generalizations and dubious assumptions are what I said was bigotry. But whatever!

I agree with you more than you think. But you are assuming that because christians are the native settlers of this land, that their symbology should be preserved in public spaces. But if we follow this logic, then shouldn't indigenous religions be the ones preserved in public spaces? But that can't happen because a special interest group called CHRISTIANS put indigenous children in residential schools and beat (molested them, put needles through their tongues etc. etc.) them if they spoke their own language, never mind of their religion. 

So much for context and history.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> I don't think you got what I was saying. The gross generalizations and dubious assumptions are what I said was bigotry. But whatever!
> 
> I agree with you more than you think. But you are assuming that because christians are the native settlers of this land, that their symbology should be preserved in public spaces. But if we follow this logic, then shouldn't indigenous religions be the ones preserved in public spaces? But that can't happen because a special interest group called CHRISTIANS put indigenous children in residential schools and beat (molested them, put needles through their tongues etc. etc.) them if they spoke their own language, never mind of their religion.
> 
> So much for context and history.


Well the reality is Adrain that Christmas is what drives this time of year form a celebratory and economic standpoint. We see the decorations and lights everywhere, it is on the TV and Radio 24/7. That is just simply the truth, it is the dominant culture so why should a secularization of what is essentially a religious holiday be allowed and the background historical basis for the holiday be denied... It makes no sense. Either celebrate Christmas or don't but as long as it is "advertised" in public spaces in a secularized manner, the religious origins should be allowed to be shown as well.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

The issue isn't simply one of competing religions... it's religions vs. secularism:



> Before 1971, less than 1 per cent of Canadians ticked the "no religion" box on national surveys. Two generations later, nearly a quarter of the population, or 23 per cent, say they aren't religious.


And the right-wing opposition to more open immigration ironically furthers that phenomenon:



> Only the persistence of religious traditions among immigrants, whose religiosity has increased slightly over the past 25 years, has slowed the march away from our places of worship.


(Globe & Mail)


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

It should be about reality and not some atheistic ideal. As I said before... either as a society we participate in/celebrate Christmas or we don't. If we do then it is idiotic and illogical to try and secularize it. Have another holiday and call it something else... but Christmas whether you like it or not is a religious holiday. Period. So if city hall, or Parliament puts up Christmas light's and decoration's it makes no sense not to be able to also put up a nativity scene if they so choose. If they choose not to fine.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

How people choose to celebrate Christmas is how Christmas is celebrated.

Christmas has been commercialised, sentimentalised, and Hollywoodised.

If you choose to celebrate it as many (celebrate?) in the Pogues song "Fairytale of New York" so be it.

To insist that Xmas is not already secularized is imo silly. As many of the religious symbols have already been co-oped for secular use, their use should be acceptable in public space.

The jolly old elf which is was co-opted from the religious symbol of Saint Nicolas we all recall that right?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> *How people choose to celebrate Christmas is how Christmas is celebrated.*
> 
> Christmas has been commercialised, sentimentalised, and Hollywoodised.
> 
> ...


"How people choose to celebrate Christmas is how Christmas is celebrated."
Agreed...

This is a follow up post, if you read the first post you will see that I acknowledged it has already been "secularized" (more accurately commercialized, as you do note), but to "insist" on that secularization for public displays is just non-sense.



> ...We see the decorations and lights everywhere, it is on the TV and Radio 24/7. That is just simply the truth, it is the dominant culture so why should a secularization of what is essentially a religious holiday be allowed and the background historical basis for the holiday be denied...


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

*I think this is actually a non-trivial problem.*

As I see it the mid-winter festivities are at the confluence of several very significant (and even more minor) cultural forces -- all of which are at least orthogonal, if not diametrically opposed to each other -- so it's no surprise that it causes some social turbulence.

The main issues that I see needing to be harmonized are:

1) the winter solstice has been a festive occasion in many cultures (especially those that gave rise to the northern european and middle eastern nations) since long before Christianity

2) during the first millennium, Christianity successfully co-opted this and many other pagan celebrations (like Easter), so, by the nineteenth century, Christmas was a decidedly Christian tradition.

3) during the last century, capitalism has successfully co-opted most Christian festivals, attaching a great deal of commercial value to these traditions (as well as Easter etc.).

4) Canada and most western countries are now a complex mixture of cultural traditions, in which Christianity is increasingly only one of many religions, and the non-religious now comprise nearly a quarter of our citizens, so tolerance of other beliefs is not only desirable but quite necessary for us to function as a society.

5) People need a break during the winter, and, while somewhat earlier than ideal, Christmas is as good an excuse as any to re-set the system.

As such, I think the most reasonable course of action is to enjoy and display one's enjoyment of the holiday season, but tactfully. For organizations that represent many individuals, these displays of holiday cheer are best kept secular, or at the very least non-denominational. The constraints on public organizations like governments and schools are even tighter, as these organizations are obviously funded by all of us, and their holiday displays and activities should be as explicitly secular as possible. For private citizens, of course, you are under no more obligation to consider the beliefs or tastes of your neighbours than at any other time of the year. But if you put out a nativity scene with the FSM in the manger, don't be surprised if your house gets egged.

On the internet, on the other hand, you can get away with a little more


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## fellfromtree (May 18, 2005)

_many of the religious symbols have already been co-oped for secular use_

It's the other way around for Christianity. Many secular and pagan (non-Christian) symbols have been Christianized, including the big important dates.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

bryanc said:


> As I see it the *mid-winter festivities* are at the confluence of several very significant (and even more minor) cultural forces -- all of which are at least orthogonal, if not diametrically opposed to each other -- so it's no surprise that it causes some social turbulence
> 
> 1) the winter solstice has been a festive occasion in many cultures (especially those that gave rise to the northern european and middle eastern nations) since long before Christianity......





Dictionary included with Mac said:


> winter solstice
> noun
> the solstice that marks the onset of winter, at the time of the shortest day, about December 22 in the northern hemisphere and June 21 in the southern hemisphere.
> • Astronomy the solstice in December


Hunakkah, Christmas in many forms, Yule, New Years, etc. Remind me again how this is the mid-winter festivities.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL said:


> Hunakkah, Christmas in many forms, Yule, New Years, etc. Remind me again how this is the mid-winter festivities.


Hanukkah is an eight-day Jewish holiday commemorating the rededication of the Holy Temple (the Second Temple) in Jerusalem at the time of the Maccabean Revolt of the 2nd century BCE. It is based on the Jewish calendar (a lunar calendar) and has nothing to do with the season. It commemorates an event in history that was documented. Paix, mon ami.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

bryanc said:


> But if you put out a nativity scene with the FSM in the manger, don't be surprised if your house gets egged.
> 
> On the internet, on the other hand, you can get away with a little more


Yeah you can get away with it, but it still paints you as an intolerant christophobic bigot posting it on the internet rather than your lawn.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## hbp (Apr 18, 2007)

SINC said:


> Well CM, some days folks just don't think it through, never mind to consider the realities. Try moving to a Muslim country and be a guy wearing shorts while having a beer when clam digging on their beaches with a mini Christmas tree by your fire. Think they'll change their laws to protect you? FFC my boy.
> 
> If that is bigoted in your opinion, so be it. What it is, is the reality that we give in far too easily and allow what were once our traditions to melt into a giant pot where their imported traditions trump ours.
> 
> ...


Try coming to North America with flawed ideas about land ownership compared to the indigenous people, kill them all, impose your laws, and then state your belief system as the traditional values.

Oh wait... that already happened.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

hbp said:


> Try coming to North America with flawed ideas about land ownership compared to the indigenous people, kill them all, impose your laws, and then state your belief system as the traditional values.
> 
> Oh wait... that already happened.


Victor and vanquished... same as it ever... and at this point in time is a completely mute point.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

screature said:


> Victor and vanquished... same as it ever... and at this point in time is a completely mute point.


Well, not when a descendent of those invaders gets on his moral high horse and says people coming to this country have no right to change our social structures.

What this serves to illustrate is that if we don't want our social structures profoundly changed by increasing immigration, we have to convince these immigrants to adopt our standards, rather than allowing them to convince us to adopt theirs.

What we should be doing, IMHO, is considering alternatives. Sometimes people coming to Canada have better ideas, and we should adopt (or at the very least add) their customs. Sometimes not. But we can't take any moral high ground "because we were here first." Even if it were true (which it obviously isn't), that doesn't make anything we do right.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

screature said:


> Victor and vanquished... same as it ever... and at this point in time is a completely mute point.


See how you feel when it happens to you. Canadians sit in a pretty comfortable chair. The West has been raping the rest of the world for 200 years. If there is one thing that is certain, history is long and power is fleeting. At some time, another culture (probably China) will come to dominate and rape the West for 200 years. The least we could do is recognise it!

Some of these comments almost indicate that it is the West's natural right to be dominant!


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

bryanc said:


> Well, not when a descendent of those invaders gets on his moral high horse and says people coming to this country have no right to change our social structures.
> 
> What this serves to illustrate is that if we don't want our social structures profoundly changed by increasing immigration, we have to convince these immigrants to adopt our standards, rather than allowing them to convince us to adopt theirs.
> 
> What we should be doing, IMHO, is considering alternatives. Sometimes people coming to Canada have better ideas, and we should adopt (or at the very least add) their customs. Sometimes not. But we can't take any moral high ground "because we were here first." Even if it were true (which it obviously isn't), that doesn't make anything we do right.


The point is it isn't the immigrants who are taking the PC approach. They aren't offended by our traditions... It is the atheists and misguided bleeding hearts who make the "religious aspect"  of Christmas a problem.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

bryanc said:


> Well, not when a descendent of those invaders gets on his moral high horse and says people coming to this country have no right to change our social structures.


No, that is also the same as it ever was - it is human nature to resist change and vaunt your own traditions over another's.



> What we should be doing, IMHO, is considering alternatives. Sometimes people coming to Canada have better ideas, and we should adopt (or at the very least add) their customs. Sometimes not. But we can't take any moral high ground "because we were here first." Even if it were true (which it obviously isn't), that doesn't make anything we do right.


The contemporary west is more accommodating to newcomers than probably any since civ began - to suggest otherwise is delusional. Again though, even the most tolerant of societies will always view some change with suspicion.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> *See how you feel when it happens to you.* Canadians sit in a pretty comfortable chair. The West has been raping the rest of the world for 200 years. If there is one thing that is certain, history is long and power is fleeting. At some time, another culture (probably China) will come to dominate and rape the West for 200 years. The least we could do is recognise it!
> 
> *Some of these comments almost indicate that it is the West's natural right to be dominant!*


How do you know it hasn't? I have Metis ancestry on my Mother's side and Mi'kmaq on my father's. It doesn't change the fact that it is the way of the world and history.

What nonsense, these comments only reflect on the dominant culture in Canada other than you who said anything about "the West". No one is talking about repressing anyones religious rights or any other rights except for those of you who seem to think it would be fine to *completely* secularize Christmas banning any religious references at all. It is a load of crap. Is you aren't a Christian don't celebrate Christmas, but don't try and deny the rights of others, who represent the majority (or even if they didn't), to celebrate their religious holiday in the manner of their choosing and that includes in public spaces.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

The whole debate around this time of year is like pressing play on a tape recorder with the same thing going round and around every year. I'm sure around December, you can find pretty much the exact same thread for the past 10 years. Even an innocuous joke has set it off this year. 

I'm at the point that for me, it's like the Mac vs PC debates all over the interwebz. At some point in the late 90's, I just decided that I wasn't going to participate in them. I'm a Mac user, its a free country, many people enjoy Macs, I'm just going to use Macs and do my thing. It's not for everyone, which isn't a problem. The decision made my life just a little bit more pleasant. 

The same goes for me on this whole Christmas debate. 

I celebrate Christmas, I enjoy Christmas. So do many people. I'm just going to celebrate Christmas and do my thing. It's not for everyone, which isn't a problem. 

A tradition around the celebration, is to wish others merriment, happiness and fun. Merry Christmas. 

Moving on with my life.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Merry Christmas, Mr. Mayor, and a Happy New Year. Paix, mon ami.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> Hanukkah is an eight-day Jewish holiday commemorating the rededication of the Holy Temple (the Second Temple) in Jerusalem at the time of the Maccabean Revolt of the 2nd century BCE. It is based on the Jewish calendar (a lunar calendar) and has nothing to do with the season. It commemorates an event in history that was documented. Paix, mon ami.


My reference to Hanukkah is a major religious holiday and it takes place in the late fall, early winter.

I apologize if you or anyone else was offended that there may have been a suggestion that Hanukkah had any relationship to what I call the dark season and the returning of the light. It wasn't my intent and indeed I am sorry if anyone was insulted by my inclusion.

My attempt at humour was poking fun at that many consider the mid-point between autumn and spring as mid-winter.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL said:


> My reference to Hanukkah is a major religious holiday and it takes place in the late fall, early winter.
> 
> I apologize if you or anyone else was offended that there may have been a suggestion that Hanukkah had any relationship to what I call the dark season and the returning of the light. It wasn't my intent and indeed I am sorry if anyone was insulted by my inclusion.
> 
> My attempt at humour was poking fun at that many consider the mid-point between autumn and spring as mid-winter.


No problem, BigDL. Actually, Hanukkah is considered a minor Jewish holiday by Jewish people around the world, celebrated but without much fuss ....... except in the US. It got way out of hand in that Christmas falls around the dates when Hanukkah might be celebrated in certain years. Such is Life.

Shalom, mon ami.


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