# TTC Failures



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

If you're in the GTA, you might remember this story:

Is he sleeping? Photo of McCowan TTC booth goes viral - thestar.com.

You might have even forgiven the TTC for such conduct of a TTC employee, especially since it's alleged that the TTC employee in question may have had a medical condition at the time that contributed to his actions.

But now this:

Driver's coffee break caught on video - thestar.com.
*TTC officials promise to investigate interrupted Blue Night service.*

I just don't see how this second example can be justified on nearly any level. Leaving riders on a bus, alone, with the engine running and idling, while going in for a coffee? That seems almost too bizarre to be real.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Lars--I get stuck behind buses doing this all the time. They just bugger off with passengers on board, and block dedicated right-turn lanes if their coffee of choice is close by.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Lars said:


> If you're in the GTA, you might remember this story:
> 
> Is he sleeping? Photo of McCowan TTC booth goes viral - thestar.com.
> 
> ...


Here in St.John's, there are specific schedules that are published. If a driver arrives at certain transfer stops a bit early, they have to wait. Still, they are NOT allowed to leave the bus.

Sadly, we shall see what his union has to say about the matter. Please tell me that TTC drivers don't earn more than GTA teachers or university professors in ON.


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## madhatress (Jul 22, 2007)

That's nothing new. Used to happen to me on the Steeles Ave East bus all the time when I lived in Markham and N. Scarborough. I'm suprised he'd do it in the dead of night, and for 7 mins when the bus is already late!


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I can't even count the number of times I have waited 40 minutes or more for a bus.

The TTC is a hot mess right. Huge unions need to be attacked here.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

When I was in highschool and for part of uni I used to smoke butts on the warden 68b at the end of the line in unionville. That guy was rad. Hehe


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> Sadly, we shall see what his union has to say about the matter. Please tell me that TTC drivers don't earn more than GTA teachers or university professors in ON.


Doing some fast googling and calculating, TTC drivers would earn more than junior teachers and less than senior ones. On the average, it's probably about the same.

Still, with every strike and fee hike, I get increasingly annoyed with the TTC, and I am not a daily rider. Now, parking often works out cheaper than taking the TTC.

I rather enjoyed taking the subway and having a few cell-phone free minutes to read in the middle of the day, but it's less and less worth it.


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## Rampant AV (Aug 2, 2005)

I agree. The TTC needs a good cleaning from top to bottom. I understand if a driver needs to use the bathroom on a long run. But to grab a coffee, or to do personal errands is unacceptable. Out of all the public transit systems I have patronized, Toronto's is definitely the worst! Everything from the service to the actual architecture, hands down brutal!


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## fellfromtree (May 18, 2005)

Plus the streetcar driver who stopped to do some banking, holding up traffic and passengers for approx 7 minutes.

T.O. transit driver brakes for ATM - Canada - Canoe.ca


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> Here in St.John's, there are specific schedules that are published. If a driver arrives at certain transfer stops a bit early, they have to wait. Still, they are NOT allowed to leave the bus.
> 
> Sadly, we shall see what his union has to say about the matter. Please tell me that TTC drivers don't earn more than GTA teachers or university professors in ON.


Dr.,

A teacher with an honours BA and maxed on the seniority grid (I think it is 11 years) makes about $90k/year in Ontario. If they have one of these new 3 year BA deals, or one of the concurrent education programs that have no major degree, they make substantially less; I think somewhere around the $50k/year maxed out.

University processors, as you know, depend on tenure or contract. Tenure at UofT and York have contracts that give them about $125k/year. If you do not have tenure, I believe the average is about $45k/year. 

Those TTC operators/collectors with maxed out seniority are making about $75k/year I believe. 

Far too much for what they do. Paramedics should be paid more than transit workers IMHO.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> Dr.,
> 
> A teacher with an honours BA and maxed on the seniority grid (I think it is 11 years) makes about $90k/year in Ontario. If they have one of these new 3 year BA deals, or one of the concurrent education programs that have no major degree, they make substantially less; I think somewhere around the $50k/year maxed out.
> 
> ...


Interesting. This is somewhat more than the teachers here in NL make, and way more than university profs here in NL make.

I feel that nurses in Canada should be paid more, or at least should be paid more here in NL. Many are leaving here to go to Alberta where their pay jumps by about 35%.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting. This is somewhat more than the teachers here in NL make, and way more than university profs here in NL make.
> 
> I feel that nurses in Canada should be paid more, or at least should be paid more here in NL. Many are leaving here to go to Alberta where their pay jumps by about 35%.


The Ontario Teachers Federation is an extremely powerful union. They are one of the largest unions in the world and are one of the top ten largest investment groups in Canada. They have done quite well for themselves.

I agree, there are other career areas that need more funds for their employees. The gap between doctor and nurse salaries in Ontario is obscene.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> The Ontario Teachers Federation is an extremely powerful union. They are one of the largest unions in the world and are one of the top ten largest investment groups in Canada. They have done quite well for themselves.
> 
> I agree, there are other career areas that need more funds for their employees. The gap between doctor and nurse salaries in Ontario is obscene.


The same here in NL, Adrian. I have been at Memorial for 33 year, with four university degrees, the highest being a Ph.D. I am only now, with our new contract, earning more than I could be earning in the public school system if I was a literacy specialist (my area of expertise). Of course, after 33 years, I would have retired 3 years ago. Most of the students I taught in my first few years here at Memorial have already retired. Such is Life.

Paix, mon ami.

Back to the TTC, is their ridership going up?


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## l84toff (Jul 27, 2008)

Ahhh, the good union life! It's the working equivalent of being on the beach in Hawaii sipping a Mai Tai...AHHHHH 

The fact these guys make as much as they do is a direct result of their union. He's right, he won't get fired. Because of his union!

Bus drivers have been doing this sort of thing since I lived in TO in the Mid 80's. About the only thing that has changed is that passengers have cell phones with cameras now and ever since patient zero, where buddy got caught sleeping on the job, everyone wants to make their own movie. 

Fares have gone up, yes. So has the price of milk, going to the movies, a cheeseburger and gas!

A monthly pass is $121. I believe that is still significantly cheaper then driving a car (which can easily get over $600/month after the car payment, insurance and gas, not to mention maintenance, repairs, 407 or parking in TO - you could easily be spending over $1000).

This is no more newsworthy than filming your neighbor cut his grass. The fact that the Toronto Sun thinks that some TTC employee who fell asleep in his little 4x6 cubicle at 3am is the most important story on any given day just illustrates where today's media is at. How many homeless people live in TO? How many live below the poverty line? Over 3700 people die in motor vehicle accidents in the US every month - that's more than 9/11. I guess there is less money in waging war against bad drivers than Iraq. But a guy falling asleep on a night shift, now that's important news.... Riiiight.


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## Fac1 (Sep 28, 2009)

This often happened to me on the Keele route, especially north of Steeles. The driver would idle on the side of the road to run into Tim Hortons, often during rush hour, and waste over 5 minutes of everyone's time. That this is at 3:00 is even worse. Kudos to the guy for taking a video and going public with it.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

l84toff said:


> This is no more newsworthy than filming your neighbor cut his grass. The fact that the Toronto Sun thinks that some TTC employee who fell asleep in his little 4x6 cubicle at 3am is the most important story on any given day just illustrates where today's media is at. How many homeless people live in TO? How many live below the poverty line? Over 3700 people die in motor vehicle accidents in the US every month - that's more than 9/11. I guess there is less money in waging war against bad drivers then Iraq. But a guy falling asleep on a night shift, now that's important news.... Riiiight.


Let the homeless guy share the job with cubicle guy.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)




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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

It doesn't take long for the torches to come out when it comes to unions.

Who here at work never takes a coffee break? What about a washroom break? Smoke break? Stress break?

I'm not forgiving anyone here but take a second to put it in perspective. People NEED to go to the washroom. People need to eat and drink. Could the driver in the video have handled it better? Absolutely but it doesn't change the fact that these drivers are human like the rest of us.

As far as wages, I agree with MB. You choose your career for many reasons. Playing the 'importance' and 'deserve' game is a slippery slope. If a TTC employeee is making more than you and has better benefits then become a TTC driver, or perhaps take it up with your employer. Don't expect the world to tailor itself to you.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mrjimmy said:


> It doesn't take long for the torches to come out when it comes to unions.
> 
> Who here at work never takes a coffee break? What about a washroom break? Smoke break? Stress break?


No one here took the union to task for a person taking a coffee break or a washroom break or a stress break.

What is totally wrong with unions though, is that they protect the weak and the inept time and time again from being fired when they should be gone. I saw it far too many times to not know it to be true. An employee in the private sector would be history.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

SINC said:


> No one here took the union to task for a person taking a coffee break or a washroom break or a stress break.
> 
> What is totally wrong with unions though, is that they protect the weak and the inept time and time again from being fired when they should be gone. I saw it far too many times to not know it to be true. An employee in the private sector would be history.


Same old argument, different union....

They also protect the worker from unscrupulous employers. They also secure good wages and benefits (though certainly not the best) for their membership. Most importantly though, they vigorously uphold health and safety standards.

It's a sad thing when you need to convince the employer to keep people safe.

Unions benefits by far outweigh their transgressions. It goes so much further beyond protecting inept workers.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Same old union line.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

SINC said:


> Same old union line.


And the cycle continues.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

mrjimmy said:


> And the cycle continues.


I belong to a union, and support the role unions play in protecting workers so that they have good working conditions, reasonable benifits/salaries, etc. However, I don't support my union, or any other union, when it protects an incompetent worker. I don't support or shop in stores run by big companies that openly oppose unions, such as Walmart, since their workers really have no protection other than what a province/state might provide.

Still, unions have a role, but sometimes, this role is not helpful for the company or the other workers. I am sure that there are many dedicated and competent TTC drivers that cringe over these sorts of news stories, since it reflects poorly on them for no reason.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> I belong to a union, and support the role unions play in protecting workers so that they have good working conditions, reasonable benifits/salaries, etc. However, I don't support my union, or any other union, when it protects an incompetent worker. I don't support or shop in stores run by big companies that openly oppose unions, such as Walmart, since their workers really have no protection other than what a province/state might provide.
> 
> Still, unions have a role, but sometimes, this role is not helpful for the company or the other workers. I am sure that there are many dedicated and competent TTC drivers that cringe over these sorts of news stories, since it reflects poorly on them for no reason.


I agree 100% Dr.G. 

Certainly some unions need to adjust to the changing needs of society. They also need to educate some workers regarding their sense of entitlement, which can, at times, be overblown and unrealistic. 

That being said, I still firmly believe that the good far outweighs the negative.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

I promised myself, long ago, that I'd never read another ehMac union basher thread.
Back to the drawing board.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"I know what I've done, what I've seen, and how it's changed me. My union affiliation changes none of that. I've never needed a job steward, and I've never needed union representation, yet I gladly pay my dues." Same here, gw. In 33 years, I have never filed a union grievance, nor had one filed against me. I do my job well, my students are happy, my administration is happy, and I am happy. A win-win-win situation.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I can only say that I've worked in union shops and out of them. A union shop doesn't suit my temperament. Like the old joke goes: "My buddy is the world's steadiest worker. If he were any steadier he'd be motionless." I couldn't stand working as slowly as I was required to by the people around me. How long can someone take being told to slow down and do less?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I've seen some union shops where the workers kept their head down and just did their jobs... usually in fields where there's lots of competition and no nice cozy monopoly situation to coast on. I've also seen, and worked in, unions which exemplify those classic abuses - slow down, you're making the rest of us look bad, take your time, make 'em wait, it's about us, not the company... in the end it's hard not to get cynical about what unions are about ideally vs. what they often resemble on the ground.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max: I think unions looked a lot better circa 1910 when you're seeing maimed vs. not-maimed as the union difference. When I heard tht the UAW had a contract in which employers had to assist workers with the legal costs of their divorce, it struck me that things had really changed.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Translink has its share of bad transit operators as well, but I find they are the exception, not the rule. While I'm not particularly for unions, I fully support them in trades, shops, and jobs where there is a danger factor involved. I was a union member at Save On Foods and no they did not tolerate slacking off whatsoever. But some unions have become a consortium of grown up babies. While I don't have many bad things to say about the transit operators, I cannot say the same for the Skytrain Attendants who are supposed to provide security and assistance. You see eight of them grouped up at one station just standing around and chitchatting, wow thanks for covering a lot of ground, folks!

I see that the TTC has security screens for the drivers, something that Translink doesn't have, and man there are some really nasty people who like to beat the crap out of transit drivers. I think last year a couple of people torched the drivers seat of an in service bus at Commercial-Broadway Station, luckily no one was hurt.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

l84toff said:


> A monthly pass is $121. I believe that is still significantly cheaper then driving a car (which can easily get over $600/month after the car payment, insurance and gas, not to mention maintenance, repairs, 407 or parking in TO - you could easily be spending over $1000).


You could be, but I'm not. I drive daily, but not that far, so my gas usage is pretty low. My car is paid in full though I save up a car payment to myself every month. It's a fairly new car, so repairs and maintenance are not an issue yet. I rarely leave Toronto these days, so there's no need to take the 407. If I need to pay for parking somewhere, I usually find street parking which is not that bad... my parking costs in an average month is probably under $25. Insurance is the kicker.

It's still more expensive to own a car, but then if I factor in time, that changes things quite a bit. Where I live is very TTC accessible... where I work is not. So I could either commute 1 - 1.5 hours EACH way to the office, or I could drive for 15 minutes. 

Plus in the car, it's a lot easier and faster to make stops along the way. I could plan my route so that I pick up rent and paperwork from 3 buildings on my way in, and be there in 45 minutes if I drive, or 1 hour and 45 minutes if I took the TTC. Not to mention, in the car, it's easy to stop at Home Depot and pick up 10 light fixture and drop them off at the building, instead of trying to take them home on transit or paying $60 to deliver $150 worth of lights.... and I get them there right away in 10 minutes instead of 1-2 days.

Parking is not an issue in these instances, as all these places have parking at no cost to me.

So when you are someone who needs a car for daily use, then yes, the fact that the TTC is going up in price does make a difference. A Metropass is not worth it to me. When parking is cheaper than 2 tokens, something in the system is not encouraging mass transit. 

The sad part is that I actually enjoy taking the subway, I seldom need to be out of the city for any reason, and yet the TTC is really inconvenient for me. If I virtually never leave the 416, why is the TTC significantly *LESS* convenient than driving? I


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

*Driver Suspended*

Driver of the seven minute coffee break is suspended. 

CP24- TTC suspends driver in 7-minute break video - CTV News, Shows and Sports -- Canadian Television

gwillikers,

Of course they are human, but whatever happened to the brown bag and coffee thermos? If the guy was about to crap his pants, then that is totally fine. 

I see you live in Toronto, and either you don't take the TTC daily or you use the miracle route. 

I take the TTC daily, and the things that these drivers do is infuriating. Coming into the Lawrence and Yonge station, the number of times the driver has stopped the bus outside the station, ran inside the convenient store, grabbed a chocolate bar. Then when we roll into the station, we miss the subway train going downtown and have to wait another 10 minutes. That ten minutes then means I miss the 8:14 Bay street car, and have to take the 8:22 street car, which means I barely make it to work on time. 

MB,

Our society prises education, that is a fact; whether it is a skilled or mechanical trade or information/thinking skills. A TTC driver has a A-Z license. I don't mean to demean them, but an A-Z licence is not comparable to 4 year university degree plus teachers college. Nor is it comparable to a 3 year college diploma, plus years of apprenticeship to become an high tension linesmen. Both make about the same position.

TTC salaries are a product of corruption and big unions.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> I take the TTC daily, and the things that these drivers do is infuriating. Coming into the Lawrence and Yonge station, the number of times the driver has stopped the bus outside the station, ran inside the convenient store, grabbed a chocolate bar.


The Village Shop!


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## l84toff (Jul 27, 2008)

Sonal said:


> why is the TTC significantly *LESS* convenient than driving? I


I simply stated it is significantly cheaper.


Sonal said:


> It's still more expensive to own a car


We obviously agree. 

When I lived in TO, I relied solely on the TTC for my transportation needs, even when I moved to Mississauga, I still took only public transportation to TO (took me a while and I pretty much slept each way). I find a car much much more convenient than public transport, for the very reasons you stated and more. I think in terms of convenience, that will never change. However if my place of work was within reach of the TTC I would not own a car (living in TO). In fact, a close friend of mine and her husband just moved into a condo downtown and are getting rid of their car.

The extra commute, the 407 and parking costs (I suspect you don't park downtown often, every time I go there for anything it's $20 or more for parking - maybe you know where all the good spots are??) are the main reason why I don't work in Toronto, as tempting as some jobs have been to apply for. Only way I would is to live there. Then I would probably put up (as I did before) with drivers that are human just like me. 

If he takes a break to use the bathroom and grab a quick coffee then so be it. I go to the bathroom where I work and I go grab a coffee sometimes all while getting paid. I'm sure it's an inconvenience to someone who has to wait till I come back to talk to me. I think I too would get a little ticked if it's something that happened all the time, I might even record the event to forward to the TTC along with my complaint. I suppose I could also try and make the bus prior to that one if it were a constant issue. I do agree that he could have handled it better.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

l84toff said:


> The extra commute, the 407 and parking costs (I suspect you don't park downtown often, every time I go there for anything it's $20 or more for parking - maybe you know where all the good spots are??) are the main reason why I don't work in Toronto, as tempting as some jobs have been to apply for. Only way I would is to live there. Then I would probably put up (as I did before) with drivers that are human just like me.


Actually, I park downtown daily--I live downtown.  

I drive out of downtown to get to work... makes for a great commute since I'm going straight up the DVP against traffic. But pretty much every time I go out with friends or for fun, or run errands, I am downtown. Generally, I only go north of Bloor for work. 

There are places (specifically around City Hall) where I will walk instead of drive because the parking is too expensive. It's about a 15-20 minute walk, so dropping in a couple of tokens to take the subway isn't worth it, plus I like to walk... so if I know the parking is going to be ridiculous, I leave the car at home. I'd rather walk, or once in a blue moon I will get a cab--which is less than the cost of really expensive parking. 

But overall, I've found that street parking is usually very affordable... you might have to hunt a little to find it. For example, I meet with a writing group on Sunday mornings at Bloor and St George--I could TTC it, but street parking is free on Sunday morning, and the nearest pay lot is $6. I volunteer at the North York Central Library for 2 hours a week... street parking is $2/hour, so I spend $4.25 and have the ability to run errands for work before or afterward. My boyfriend lived at Yonge & Eglinton--on weekends, I could park on most streets for free, and on weekdays I could park between 6 PM and 8 AM for free.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

SINC said:


> What is totally wrong with unions though, is that they protect the weak and the inept time and time again from being fired when they should be gone. I saw it far too many times to not know it to be true. An employee in the private sector would be history.


Sinc's post ignores two important issues:

1) The comment about employees in the private sector being history with respect to unions is specious. Unions and the problems associated with them are not phenomena exclusive to the public sector. There are many unionized private companies out there that are a real pain to deal with, and this should not be diminished. Been there, done that.

2) Sinc fails to mention that in unionized environments the converse of the bad employee situation also exists - good employees are penalized in that they can't get ahead of the mediocre ones because they are unable to negotiate raises/vacation time/other compensation as would be possible in a non-union environment. If you're new and you're working harder or more productively than the other more senior employees, you can't get a raise based on merit. You get screwed simply because you haven't been around long enough. I have no idea why Sinc missed this one because there are a heck of a lot of good employees working in union shops in both the public and private sectors that get screwed like this. Been there, done that too.


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## Rampant AV (Aug 2, 2005)

I think all of this bad media could have been avoided if the drivers would have been honest and courteous about the situation. You can't expect a driver to hold his/her bladder for an hour to use the facilities at the end of their run. All they would have to do is get on the PA and say "sorry folks but I have to use the washroom, I'll be a quick as I can. I'll make up the time over the next few stops". Would that have been so hard? Same goes for grabbing a coffee. I'd need coffee too at 3AM.

As for the sleeping collector, and the ones running personal errands (ATM) there's no excuse for that.

The problem now is that the drivers are only going to get worse. The unions will protect them and they will act out accordingly.


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## Rampant AV (Aug 2, 2005)

Macfury said:


> I can only say that I've worked in union shops and out of them. A union shop doesn't suit my temperament. Like the old joke goes: "My buddy is the world's steadiest worker. If he were any steadier he'd be motionless." I couldn't stand working as slowly as I was required to by the people around me. How long can someone take being told to slow down and do less?


I totally agree. I'm a freelance AV technician and when I have to work in a unionized facility I cringe. In 15 years I have never had a good experience working with unionized employees.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Rampant AV said:


> I totally agree. I'm a freelance AV technician and when I have to work in a unionized facility I cringe. In 15 years I have never had a good experience working with unionized employees.


Yeah, that was my experience too. Pretty much says it all.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

SINC said:


> Yeah, that was my experience too. Pretty much says it all.


Your dismissive summations amuse me SINC.

All 'it' says is that you agree with his opinion. 

I agree with MB, gwillikers and Dr.G. and I also share their experiences.

Pretty much says it all there too.....

Funny how that works, isn't it.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Lars said:


> Driver's coffee break caught on video - thestar.com.
> *TTC officials promise to investigate interrupted Blue Night service.*
> 
> I just don't see how this second example can be justified on nearly any level. Leaving riders on a bus, alone, with the engine running and idling, while going in for a coffee? That seems almost too bizarre to be real.


Happens in Montreal all the time.

I don't really see what the big fuss is about - although seven minutes is an awful long time to get a coffee. Montreal transit drivers don 't take nearly as long but otherwise they do the same.


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> How quick people here are to judge what people in other jobs should earn.
> 
> I guarantee you that most teachers with their fancy university degrees would fall apart quickly working for transit in a big city in a short period of time.


Ah, reverse snobbery. How about those transit workers spend 5 or more years in university and then beat out thousands of other candidates to find a job? We'll see who cracks then. If you ask any teacher who used to work in the 'real world', they'll tell you that it's a pressure of a whole new level. One they wouldn't have understood before they became teachers.

My grandfather worked for the TTC as a subway driver. Judging from the stories he told me, most drivers handle their stress just fine after sneaking a few sips from their flask 

(Yes, I know it's anecdotal, but my grandfather told us many of the subway drivers regularly drank on the job)

Every job has its challenges, so keep in mind that 'not judging' cuts both ways.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Yeah, I think MB would end up in a corner huddled into the fetal position if he spent a day in a teacher's shoes. :lmao:


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mrjimmy said:


> Your dismissive summations amuse me SINC.
> 
> All 'it' says is that you agree with his opinion.
> 
> ...


It wasn't just a dismissive summation, it was experience I was referring to regarding unions.

In the early 60s, I was temporarily transferred to the Herald in Moose Jaw whose composing room had gone out on strike. Our shop some 150 miles distant was non union and I, along with a half dozen others, was selected by Thomson Newspapers to go in and get the daily out while strikers picketed outside. We were locked into the building with bunks in the basement for a week at a time when a fresh crew would arrive to relieve us. It was my first experience with a union and the abuse they heaped on us that week forever tainted my views as unions having anyone with a shred of decency as a member.

Same thing followed when I joined the Toronto Telegram in the 1960s when they were out on strike. A strike that cost the paper it's existence and again the conduct of union members was appalling.

I had to deal directly with three different US based unions over the years and they always sent an American to do their negotiating at the bargaining table. I'm sure it was just coincidence, but all three of those American honchos were big fat men in expensive suits and jewellery. I listened to so many sob stories from staff about their mistreatment by unions, and when they reported it to management, the other union clowns went berserk and filed all kinds of nonsense grievances.

We had to provide legal assistance on the QT to one particular staff so they could have the union decertified under law to get them out from under the tyranny of their US union bosses.

I could go on, but I'm sure by now you get the idea that unions and I have not, shall we say, had much respect for each other.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> Yeah, I think MB would end up in a corner huddled into the fetal position if he spent a day in a teacher's shoes. :lmao:


Better shape than I would be in. If I taught anything below University I would be taken out in handcuffs after throwing desks at kids or kids at desks! :lmao:

We get the so called "academic" students and they all still sit on facebook pretending that I have no idea what typing at a hundred miles per hour when I am not even saying anything means.


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

If TTC drivers get plastic shields then I think teachers should be next...soundproof Plexiglas from floor to ceiling


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

TTC drivers gets coffee then shuts bus down because rider is filming him.

CP24- TTC driver shuts down bus after confrontation with rider - CTV News, Shows and Sports -- Canadian Television

I waited 9 minutes late for the southbound Bayview today, to have it drive past me. When I ran up to it stopped at the intersection and boarded, I asked the driver if she didn't see me. This is what she said to me word for word:

"You know how many people stand in bus shelters in this city. You have to wave down the bus."

WTF! This is what we deal with. Still think these idiots should make $35/hr.


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## Rampant AV (Aug 2, 2005)

It's gonna get worse before it gets better. TTC employees are going to start acting out because they know they can't be fired short of shooting a passenger.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Rampant AV said:


> It's gonna get worse before it gets better. TTC employees are going to start acting out because they know they can't be fired short of shooting a passenger.


Yes because that's what union members do...


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## The G3 Man (Oct 7, 2008)

Fac1 said:


> This often happened to me on the Keele route, especially north of Steeles. The driver would idle on the side of the road to run into Tim Hortons, often during rush hour, and waste over 5 minutes of everyone's time. That this is at 3:00 is even worse. Kudos to the guy for taking a video and going public with it.


+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1, happens to me almost EVERY DAY on my way to school on the 41, when im on my way to school, if i go the way near steeles, yes, ive seen them go to timmies, also at Keele and Eglinton, they stop and go to coffee time, or chat with other drivers. O_O Its to the point that it happens almost 99% of the time at Keele and Eglinton, i get off and walk the rest of the way to school :S, it freaking pisses me off, another joke of a bus is the 59 Maple Leaf, anyone know that bus? youll know what im talking about . :yawn:

Morgan


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

The G3 Man said:


> +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1, happens to me almost EVERY DAY on my way to school on the 41, when im on my way to school, if i go the way near steeles, yes, ive seen them go to timmies, also at Keele and Eglinton, they stop and go to coffee time, or chat with other drivers. O_O Its to the point that it happens almost 99% of the time at Keele and Eglinton, i get off and walk the rest of the way to school :S, it freaking pisses me off, another joke of a bus is the 59 Maple Leaf, anyone know that bus? youll know what im talking about . :yawn:
> 
> Morgan


Take video on your phone and send it to the Toronto Star. This is the only way we will gain critical mass and break their pathetic service.

Gary Webster, Chief General Manager of the TTC, released this statement to all employees today:

TTC's Chief General Manager tells employees: <br/ >"Our customers deserve better" - Transit Toronto - Weblog


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## The G3 Man (Oct 7, 2008)

What phone ? Could use my MacBook, take it to school with me and use it on the bus? Think it would help? it happens 99% of the time.

Morgan. 

PS: it really pisses me off, as it makes me late for school sometimes, the walk is not so bad from keele and eglinton (George Harvey) but still O__O


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

The G3 Man said:


> What phone ? Could use my MacBook, take it to school with me and use it on the bus? Think it would help? it happens 99% of the time.
> 
> Morgan.
> 
> PS: it really pisses me off, as it makes me late for school sometimes, the walk is not so bad from keele and eglinton (George Harvey) but still O__O


Of course you should do it. Grab one of those point and shoot cameras and take a video or consecutive shots showing him going in and out. They cannot do this. 

Put the footage together and send it to the Star or the Sun. They will eat it up.

That is evidence that the TTC will use to get rid of these lazy jerk offs.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

TTC employees preparing to work to rule.

TTC employees poised to work to rule after being told to shape up - The Globe and Mail

If they actually do this, it is going to cause riots on the transit system. People are already so furious with this jerk offs. 

We shall see.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> TTC employees preparing to work to rule.


So then... does that mean that they will actually work?


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Sonal said:


> So then... does that mean that they will actually work?


It is getting out of control. This simply means that collectors are going to intentionally create long linesups and slowly give people change. Drivers are going to drive like jerks and leave bus stops as people are running to catch the bus.

This, if it happens, will result in violence. I can guarantee that.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> It is getting out of control. This simply means that collectors are going to intentionally create long linesups and slowly give people change. Drivers are going to drive like jerks and leave bus stops as people are running to catch the bus.


Yes, but how is this significantly different than the TTC on a day-to-day basis?

I commuted daily via TTC for 10 years... that was 3 or 4 strikes ago.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

"TTC Work to Rule fizzles"


Look what this stupid union had to say:



> We’ve got 13 and 14-year-olds that feel that they have an entitlement to film our operators in the performance of their duties, and that’s not acceptable,” said Bob Kinnear, president of the Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113, which represents Toronto’s transit workers.


What does their age matter? They paid their fare, and they are doing something about operators not doing their jobs! 

This is ludicrous the **** these idiots spew.

TTC work-to-rule pitch fizzles - thestar.com


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

I live down the street from Yonge & Davisville, so I'm thinking I can sit my camcorder on one of the tables by the window in the Tim Horton's and point it so it looks across the street from TTC headquarters and let it rip. Or, take it up a notch and bring my MacBook Pro and connect it with a FireWire cable and do a live-to-web ATU 113 coffee break cam...

Sound good?


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## Rampant AV (Aug 2, 2005)

Amiga2000HD said:


> I live down the street from Yonge & Davisville, so I'm thinking I can sit my camcorder on one of the tables by the window in the Tim Horton's and point it so it looks across the street from TTC headquarters and let it rip. Or, take it up a notch and bring my MacBook Pro and connect it with a FireWire cable and do a live-to-web ATU 113 coffee break cam...
> 
> Sound good?


I love it!


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## The G3 Man (Oct 7, 2008)

Adrian. said:


> "TTC Work to Rule fizzles"
> 
> 
> Look what this stupid union had to say:
> ...


O___O Im 16, i took a video today, submitted it... Wow they get worse and worse, do they not WANT students to take the bus, i can tell you a lot of what they makes comes from students  ..

Morgan


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

The G3 Man said:


> O___O Im 16, i took a video today, submitted it... Wow they get worse and worse, do they not WANT students to take the bus, i can tell you a lot of what they makes comes from students  ..
> 
> Morgan


Hey can you put it on Youtube or something? I would really like to see it!


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Amiga2000HD said:


> I live down the street from Yonge & Davisville, so I'm thinking I can sit my camcorder on one of the tables by the window in the Tim Horton's and point it so it looks across the street from TTC headquarters and let it rip. Or, take it up a notch and bring my MacBook Pro and connect it with a FireWire cable and do a live-to-web ATU 113 coffee break cam...
> 
> Sound good?


Seriously man, you should do it! Every bit of evidence counts.


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## The G3 Man (Oct 7, 2008)

Adrian. said:


> Hey can you put it on Youtube or something? I would really like to see it!


Sure, just gimme till i get home, school blocks youtube O__O.

/\/\ /\/\ ƒ


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## The G3 Man (Oct 7, 2008)

Amiga2000HD said:


> I live down the street from Yonge & Davisville, so I'm thinking I can sit my camcorder on one of the tables by the window in the Tim Horton's and point it so it looks across the street from TTC headquarters and let it rip. Or, take it up a notch and bring my MacBook Pro and connect it with a FireWire cable and do a live-to-web ATU 113 coffee break cam...
> 
> Sound good?


OMG DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Morgan


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> In the opinions of those here, how much should those transit drivers be paid?


You can be sure it will be less than what they are making, no matter what they do for a living...


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> In the opinions of those here, how much should those transit drivers be paid?


To be honest, I wouldn't really care how much they were paid if the service was good. 

That's not all the transit driver's fault, but by my rough recollection, there has been either a strike or the threat of a strike roughly every 3 years or so since I started taking the TTC 20 years ago. Consequently, whatever sympathy Toronto residents have for the TTC drivers dries up pretty fast. 

Every time there is a strike, the TTC loses a significant number of riders riders. That's what did it for me--thanks to the strike in 1999 I discovered just how much faster and easier it was to drive to where I was working at the time. That was my 3rd strike (literally) and there have been more since, including a wildcat strike. I can't think of a major union that goes on strike more than the TTC. 

What all of this points to is that clearly, the union does not care about the riders. Nor do they care about the transit system as a whole, because if the TTC loses riders and loses revenue, how can service get better?

And those pictures, those videos... more proof that they are not there to give the riders, the people who pay both the fares and the taxes that fund the TTC, good service. But anyone who takes the TTC regularly has experienced that. Ever wait 40 minutes for a bus that's supposed to come every 10 minutes and then have 3 all come at once? Ever run for a bus and have the driver shut the door in your face? Ever been at Finch station at about 6 o' clock on a weeknight when there are regularly enough people to fill 3 buses but they stop running most of buses so only one shows up and it's a mob scene trying to get one because the next one is not going to be there for 30 minutes? 

Every time there is a fair hike, the TTC loses riders. Granted, it's unreasonable to expect fares not to go up, but when rates keep going up, when there is a continual threat of yet another TTC strike, the service continues to be poor.... seriously, I don't care if it's the union's fault or management's fault or the government's fault (and it's probably all of them) but frankly, for a city of Toronto's size and growth, we have a truly terrible transit system. 

That the union keeps striking for higher and higher wages to the determent of this system does not endear me to them. I don't know what a TTC driver makes and I don't care what a TTC driver makes, I just know that the service is not what it should be for a city like this and the strikes do not help anything.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Amiga2000HD said:


> I live down the street from Yonge & Davisville, so I'm thinking I can sit my camcorder on one of the tables by the window in the Tim Horton's and point it so it looks across the street from TTC headquarters and let it rip. Or, take it up a notch and bring my MacBook Pro and connect it with a FireWire cable and do a live-to-web ATU 113 coffee break cam...
> 
> Sound good?


Also record the head office parking lot where you can see the TTC execs being chauffeured to work each morning. Most of them drive instead of taking the Better Way, even with their workplace right on a major Yonge Street subway stop.



MazterCBlazter said:


> In the opinions of those here, how much should those transit drivers be paid?


Whatever qualified applicants will accept to take on the job. The skill set is pretty marginal for TTC workers, outside of technicians. I think it would be pretty easy to find workers to push the little trap door button to swallow up the coins and tokens for example.

It's no wonder they found that poor guy asleep. This is a job suitable for the talents of trained animals, not humans.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sonal said:


> Every time there is a fair hike, the TTC loses riders. Granted, it's unreasonable to expect fares not to go up, but when rates keep going up, when there is a continual threat of yet another TTC strike, the service continues to be poor....


In private industry, when travelers abandon an airline or bus service, fares *decrease*. Only in a government-run service does it work the other way. They have negotiated themselves into an untenable and uncompetitive situation with workers whose skill set would collectively fill a thimble.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Out here in Vancouver many drivers feel that they are hauling garbage, not people. After a few months on that job, many hate crowds and their opinions of the human race goes down the toilet. Whatever people think of bus drivers I assure you that the passengers are worse.


And yet, people are lining up for those jobs. Who cares if transit drivers find their jobs a trial? Let them quit and hand off their positions to people who would gladly replace them.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Ask a driver that is new to the job how they feel about it and they will feel fortunate to have it. Ask them again after a year or two, the enthusiasm will be gone or greatly diminished. The wages and benefits are the only things keeping them there, especially in a tough economy and job market.
> 
> Who wouldn't want to make $35/hr plus benefits in a steady Union protected job? Especially if their education and other work experience is not close to that mark.


So let them have a revolving door of drivers who come in and leave after a few years. What's wrong with that?

An exact dollar figure? How about $12 an hour? That seems fair for siting on one's ass and driving at 50 kph.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Nonetheless, I would start at that rate and see who showed up. Thta's the price I see offered for non-unionized school bus drivers. If I couldn't put enough butts in seats I would increase the wages to the point where I had enough of them. I wouldn't much care if they left after two or three years. Some jobs simply aren't very tolerable and when the problem appears to be the stress of working with the passengers themselves, there's little the employer can do about it.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> It takes six weeks and costs around $40,000 to train a bus driver into the Vancouver Transit system when I did it over a decade ago. I was in a class of 10. Two dropped out before the end of the training. After one year all of use had a lot more grey hair and wider waists. The one retired RCMP copper said that the one year in transit was tougher and harder on him than his entire policing career. He quit a year later due to stress. After 5 years there were 3 of us left. One was fired, the other 4 quit. When I quit there was only 1 other guy left in our class of 10. He and I were the only ones that did not have University degrees and we lasted the longest.
> 
> Years ago, the transit service used to have a conductor and a driver.
> 
> If you only pay the city transit drivers $12 per hour, few will be around for longer than 6 months. Considering what it costs to train them it would be a huge waste of money, poor service and high turnover.


That training program is ridiculously expensive. We already get poor service. Pay them a minimal starting salary and a bonus if they hang in for two or three years. That way you get your training money back and if they leave, they haven't wasted too much of your time.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Macfury said:


> That training program is ridiculously expensive. We already get poor service. Pay them a minimal starting salary and a bonus if they hang in for two or three years. That way you get your training money back and if they leave, they haven't wasted too much of your time.


My present anger is inclining me to appreciate your ruthless economics MF. 

I agree, the transit workers and their union are a page of ridiculous in my opinion.

Perhaps $12 is too low since that is not even a reasonable amount to sustain a family in Toronto. $18 seems fair though.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> Perhaps $12 is too low since that is not even a reasonable amount to sustain a family in Toronto. $18 seems fair though.


It was based on an ad I saw for school bus drivers ferrying nasty little beggars to school. If the problem is in retaining the drivers only for the sake of recouping expensive training costs, then the wages need to be structured to encourage long-term employment without going overboard.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MB, I put in the qualifier that it's not all the driver's fault--the whole TTC is a mess.

But all the frequent strikes do nothing but hurt the TTC as a whole, and that pisses me off. I do not care what the driver's make. I do care that we have good service, and we don't.... every example I listed are things that happen regularly. Going on strike over wages every 3 years only ensures that there is less money available (due to more taken up by salaries and less ridership) to improve the TTC. 

Seriously... name a group the strikes or threatens to strike more than the TTC. 

The city workers, garbage workers, nurses, public school teachers, emergency services, police, etc. all seem to have fewer labour issues than the TTC.... these are not people who are exactly seeing the best of humanity either. And yet, they don't seem to go on strike (or work-to-rule or have a job action) nearly as regularly, they don't threaten to do so as regularly, and they don't have wildcat strikes. 

As I said, any sympathy I had for TTC drivers evaporated about 4 strikes ago.... certainly the wildcat strike really did it for a lot of people--if you are going to shut down a city for a day, at least give us all some warning.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Things must be pretty bad transit wise in Toronto. I don't know what system Toronto uses to train it's city bus drivers. For safety reasons alone, you don't want undertrained bus drivers behind the wheel. Then there are the scheduling systems, routes, etc. Can you really sustain a family in Toronto for $18 per hour?
> 
> $18 per hour as a wage to sustain bus drivers in a big expensive city is more realistic than $12.
> 
> Perhaps they should have conductors again like the old days.


$12/hour at a full time job is $24,000 a year. I have tenants in Toronto living on that and less... heck, at one of our buildings, we're just happy to see someone who is actually employed.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

If TTC operators were paid what their skills and education dictate, they would make between $30-$50,000 per year. If they made that much the TTC budget would cut in half (I checked the financial statements) and we could be taking top of the line buses, trains and street cars that are clean and on time. We are still taking 1950s buses that are dirty, stations with condoms on the ground and trains that screech until they stop.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Unfortunately, I think the one or two instances of bad TTC behaviour that captivated the media outlets a couple weeks ago has spiralled into an out of control and blatantly immature situation with transit riders who are now more concerned about their own self fame with their YouTube videos than actual bad TTC behaviour. I fully understand the concern of the vast majority of TTC workers who do their jobs properly who are now under unnecessary pressure and scrutiny when simply taking a **** break in fear some elitist transit rider with a cellphone is just dying to get his YouTube air time in and fabricate or grossly exaggerate the driver's break.

Though I do agree some bad press with video evidence forces the organization to pull up its socks, there's a difference between that and excessive harassment and scrutiny by transit riders who simply see the pre-existing situation as ample opportunity to pour more fuel on the fire and get their kicks out of it.

Personally, I'd be pretty aggravated too if my every move was under the microscope and my customers were staring down my every move to find a reason to nail with some "unacceptable conduct" because one of my colleagues couldn't do his job properly.

Some riders are issuing valid complaints about bad behaviour -- others are causing the TTC unnecessary grief under unjustifiable grounds, and those need to grow up.

TTC union and management play blame game - thestar.com.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Lars said:


> Unfortunately, I think the one or two instances of bad TTC behaviour that captivated the media outlets a couple weeks ago has spiralled into an out of control and blatantly immature situation with transit riders who are now more concerned about their own self fame with their YouTube videos than actual bad TTC behaviour. I fully understand the concern of the vast majority of TTC workers who do their jobs properly who are now under unnecessary pressure and scrutiny when simply taking a **** break in fear some elitist transit rider with a cellphone is just dying to get his YouTube air time in and fabricate or grossly exaggerate the driver's break.
> 
> Though I do agree some bad press with video evidence forces the organization to pull up its socks, there's a difference between that and excessive harassment and scrutiny by transit riders who simply see the pre-existing situation as ample opportunity to pour more fuel on the fire and get their kicks out of it.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Manatus (May 11, 2009)

I agree that it's probably not helping the situation, but at the same time, you have to wonder why it's become so big. It sounds like a lot more than some teenagers who think it's cool to try to get someone fired. I can't speak to the TTC personally, but what I've read seems like a lot of anger across a wide range of people, who have been dying to "get back" at the TTC and any representative of TTC for a long period of real or perceived misbehaviour/poor service/strikes/high fares etc. At some point you have to wonder whether it's just some people wanting their 15 minutes of fame, or whether people have been sitting on this for years solely because they have no choice but to ride the bus, and that if it were just a regular company they would have gone bankrupt long ago because of the number of enemies they have made amongst their customers. Are they just getting their kicks or do they really have an axe to grind? I'd be interested to hear from people who experience it every day.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I gave up on the TTC a long time ago, but the one time I chanced it in December 2009 after my car broke down, I was told I couldn't save money by buiyng a number of tickets because they were afraid I would "hoard" them and beat their fare hikes in 2010. I grumbled and told them I would just take two, then. "Sorry, sir, you may only have one."

The place is run by nincompoops. Once I got to the place where I bought a new battery, I cabbed back home.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I gave up on the TTC a long time ago, but the one time I chanced it in December 2009 after my car broke down, I was told I couldn't save money by buiyng a number of tickets because they were afraid I would "hoard" them and beat their fare hikes in 2010. I grumbled and told them I would just take two, then. "Sorry, sir, you may only have one."
> 
> The place is run by nincompoops. Once I got to the place where I bought a new battery, I cabbed back home.


It is still operating in the cold war era: give everyone a good, unionised job so they don't become ungodly reds. Now that the reds are gone, let's move into the 21st century and replace the overpaid guys with machines.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

The TTC, I'm sure, has plenty of problems. Personally, I don't use it and don't plan on using it on a daily bases. The last time I was on it was about two years ago when I went to a Jay's game.

One thing I do know about is driving for extensive periods of time and I can tell you that bouncing on an air seat you either develop your bladder muscle to the point where it can bench press 300lbs or incontinence. LOL

The other thing I'll say is that employees and their attitudes are very much the reflection of their management. Union or not.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I remember seeing some correspondence between a friend's uncle and his father. The uncle was a TTC driver and they had a running feud. The line went something like this: "I can see you have developed the prominent belly and pipe-cleaner legs typical of your profession..."


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

You know, I don't begrudge the bathroom break... when you gotta go, you gotta go. I do think, like it or not, they should let the passengers know that you are taking a bathroom break--if you are going to keep people waiting, it's just the polite thing to do.

I'm not sure why he felt the need to keep people waiting even longer to grab a coffee and a donut. I like my coffee as much as the next person, but who likes waiting? It's kind of a natural that people would get at least a little peeved.

Sleeping is inexcusable.

Seriously though, if the problems that the public experiences with the TTC managements fault, are not the drivers' in a good position to negotiate with management to solve these problems? Surely the drivers see which routes have more people than buses, which routes they seem to get behind the expected times and clog up to have 3 buses in a row...

If the driver's want the public to get back on their side, I'd say now is a really good time to stop saying "You don't understand how hard our jobs are" and start saying "Let us use our power with our union to push management into making things better for the riders." Frankly, the public cannot force TTC management to change anything the way the union can.... and the best way to get someone on your side is to be on their side.

Now that might not be the official role of the union, but it would be one hell of a good PR move and might even result in some improvements to service. See? Everyone's happy now.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sonal said:


> You know, I don't begrudge the bathroom break... when you gotta go, you gotta go. I do think, like it or not, they should let the passengers know that you are taking a bathroom break--if you are going to keep people waiting, it's just the polite thing to do.


I think they should announce whether it's Number 1 or Number 2 as well.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Ttc tmi.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> I think they should announce whether it's Number 1 or Number 2 as well.


That might be too much information... especially if it got all folksy, "Sorry folks, gotta take a break. My mother-in-law's cooking gave me the runs."


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

"I've been ignoring my roughage ladies and gents, so this may take awhile."


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Sonal said:


> Seriously though, if the problems that the public experiences with the TTC managements fault, are not the drivers' in a good position to negotiate with management to solve these problems? Surely the drivers see which routes have more people than buses, which routes they seem to get behind the expected times and clog up to have 3 buses in a row...
> 
> If the driver's want the public to get back on their side, I'd say now is a really good time to stop saying "You don't understand how hard our jobs are" and start saying "Let us use our power with our union to push management into making things better for the riders." Frankly, the public cannot force TTC management to change anything the way the union can.... and the best way to get someone on your side is to be on their side.
> 
> Now that might not be the official role of the union, but it would be one hell of a good PR move and might even result in some improvements to service. See? Everyone's happy now.


Does the CAW/UAW tell GM. Ford or Chrysler how to build cars? No, that's the job of the engineers. 

Same with the TTC, or any other organization, except that it's not automotive engineers but industrial engineers who set the standards. It's TTC's industrial engineers who design and schedule the driver's routes and based on the collective agreement it's the drivers who have to abide by those standards. As part of "management rights" the union has little say when it comes to operations unless the standards would affect health & safety or be deemed unreasonable by a third party or generally accepted standards within the transit industry as a whole. Modern industrial standards are uniquely reasonable and fair. 

It is commonly accepted that in order to increase service levels, your operating costs follow suit. If the TTC engineers rework routes by increasing the number of buses on a particular route in order to increase frequency and service levels, it would increase the cost in terms of labour, fuel, vehicle costs, etc. 

So yeah, I put the blame squarely on management, TTC funding and the boy who would be mayor a.k.a. Chair Giambrone.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

kps said:


> So yeah, I put the blame squarely on management, TTC funding and the boy who would be mayor a.k.a. Chair Giambrone.


Fanboy David Miller told a stunned audience today that Giambrone was doing a phenomenal job running the TTC.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

The lame duck Miller called it a renaissance in transit. LOL

I nearly ran my truck off the road when I hear it.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

He was practically gushing:



> Do I have confidence in him as chair of the Toronto Transit Commission? I have confidence in chair Giambrone because the TTC is going through the most remarkable transformation in the history of this city,” Miller said.


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## madhatress (Jul 22, 2007)

I was trying to think of what Howard Moscoe did for the TTC in all his years as Chair and I found this

Looks like no one is ever happy with the Chair. At least in recent years.



> Four commissioners on the seven-member TTC board issued a statement in April 1999, indicating that they were prepared to "reconsider the position of chair".[91] Moscoe was able to retain his position at a subsequent TTC meeting with a deft procedural move that divided the opposition, and later described the attempt to dismiss him as a "kindergarten coup".[92His opponents attempted to remove him again in May 1999, when TTC commissioners Chris Korwin-Kuczynski and Brian Ashton brought forward a motion before city council to replace the entire TTC board. Ashton acknowledged that the move was intended to replace Moscoe, whom he described as "very incompetent".





> There was another effort to remove Moscoe as chair late in 1999, when it was revealed that an employee in his office had faxed confidential documents to a company suing the TTC. Moscoe indicated that he had no awareness of the fax, but submitted a resignation notice to take formal responsibility.[97] The other commissioners planned to reject his resignation after a single day's debate, but commissioner Rob Davis unexpectedly suspended the proceedings and suggested that a broader inquiry be launched. Moscoe then withdrew his resignation, saying that the matter should have been resolved quickly to permit the TTC to return to its regular business.[98] There was a further attempt to dismiss Moscoe in January 2000, but this came to nothing.[





> There was another attempt to remove Moscoe as TTC chair in July 2006, but he defeated the challenge by a vote of 5 to 3.[127]


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Howard Moscoe...another epic FAIL, in both, as TTC chair and head of the licensing commission.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Moscoe was a champion of remaining on the gravy train.


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## madhatress (Jul 22, 2007)

Can someone name a good TTC chair then?

Here's a cheat sheet to help you out.


ETA: What would make someone a good TTC chair?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Bring back William C. McBrien.


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## fellfromtree (May 18, 2005)

How 'bout Eleanor Clitheroe or Tom Parkinson. Might be a good fit.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Macfury said:


> The Village Shop!


That's the one. Have you seen them do it as well?


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

In a Seattle Metro station security guards watched as a 15 year old girl was brutally attacked because their contract only details that they observe and report incidents.

As the reporter says, common decency should have prevailed here. 

Note that the video is violent:

First on KING5: Guards stand by during brutal attack | KING 5 TV | Seattle News, Local News, Breaking News, Weather | Investigators


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