# Attn: Switchers: Share your frustrations



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Hey guys,

I am in the midst of designing a "OS X for Switchers" seminar for work, and I was hoping that some of you converts (recent or otherwise) could share some of the things that frustrated/confused/whatever you at first so I can streamline the course a little better.

So any experience you can share would be great!

Thanks!


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Why not just show them Switch 101 from Apple?

Or My First Mac?

Not saying you shouldn't customise/personalise it to your liking, but why reinvent the ENTIRE wheel?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Because sometimes people find weirder stuff weird than what show up on the Apple site


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

PosterBoy said:


> Because sometimes people find weirder stuff weird than what show up on the Apple site


Which is exactly your problem. It is difficult to predict when people are going to stumble over the "weird stuff".

I can't help much with specific weird stuff as I "went throught the fire" and had my soul saved back at the time when the SE was new. But I have "switched" many students since that time, so I can point you to some considerations in structuring such a seminar. Our original switch was from DOS 3, from line printer/terminals on a CP6 mainframe and even from a couple of Osbornes. 

Here are some things to consider, based on my experiences. YMMV

How big is your company? Can it support formally a "resource" or "support" person(s) - does it have an existing IT process that can be leveraged? Even though we only dealt with about 4 or 5 students at a time we found it necessary to task one of the lab regulars as the go to person - turned out to be me - and formally add this role to their job description and allow them time and resources to come up to speed. University IT departments until recently or unless dedicated to Mac tend(ed) to go severely deaf when they heard the word Mac. The process became a seminar introduction and ongoing assistance. Or are they going to be "thrown in at the deep end" and expected to leverage each others experiences (office "user group") - a process that has been pretty successful in another lab here - in this case the seminar will have to raise awareness of various online problem solving resources. 
Will the workers have access to Macs before the seminar - have a chance to develop questions - or is this seminar a prequel to their exposure - if the later it is hard to anticipate issues. 
Does the business depend on a particular set of "mission critical" apps? In our case SPSS is our major tool and source of issues (SPSS is the defacto standard in statistical analysis, but has been very slow, and always versions behind, in its Mac support and is expensive - students of stats should take note of the free open-source R project) but there are also issues associated with preparing publications. 
Are they going to get a canned setup or are they allowed latitude? Canned setups reduce issues but stifles the "think different" Weltanschauung that is the heart of the Mac experience. 
Are you in a position to enforce a 'required reading' situation because chas_m is right - there is a ton of introductory material out there, both online and on-paper, which would be helpful if participants read (some of) it first. Consider recommending a basic text - a Missing Manual perhaps - perhaps a resource library/bookshelf in the office.
Will the seminar be delivered in a lecture hall type situation or in a milieu similar to a computer lab - ie in the abstract or hands-on? I prefer to deal with small numbers but have done lectures to larger groups. Your approach will have to take this into account and it has consequences re follow up.
Are the participants of a similar skill level on the platform they are switching from? This will tend to level the types of issues that occur.
Are the participants all doing the same kind of work or do they have a variety of tasks different one from the other? It is easier if they are all coming from the same place.
Are you going pure Mac or are you mandating the use of Windows via Bootcamp or whatever? 
Accept the fact that you are not going to be able to hit all the bases in a one shot seminar. Therefore, where possible lean towards general solutions, practical troubleshooting, rather than specifics.
Also accept that there are limits, and a great deal of variability, on the amount of material people can digest usefully at once. Do this much and you begin to develop a sense of when enough is enough - eyes are beginning to glaze over, snoring  , etc.
Keep it "light". Issues presented and dealt with by humourous anecdote tend to both hold attention and to have better retention than dryly running through a list of problems and solutions.
As for particular issues, I am sure ehMacers will chime in, but you can also troll ehMac, macosxhints forums, Apple discussion forums and so on for commonly occurring problems.

I wish that when I began doing this I had had access to as much info as is available now that Mac formally accommodates the use of Windows.

You have an interesting challenge....


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

PosterBoy said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I am in the midst of designing a "OS X for Switchers" seminar for work, and I was hoping that some of you converts (recent or otherwise) could share some of the things that frustrated/confused/whatever you at first so I can streamline the course a little better.
> 
> ...


1) No way to universally "maximize" windows. Some applications do it with the green button, some don't. I hate that missing feature in the Mac OS.

2) No "Remove Programs" feature in the System Preferences. Yes, I know you can just trash the application, but some stuff gets left floating around the system.

3) No Yahoo Messenger or MSN Messenger with the full feature set of their PC counterparts.

4) Lack of a full FTP client built into the OS.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Following up on Guytoronto's comments, some of the things that switchers should be aware of that I can recall off the top of my head.

1) Finding software repositories for OSX. Apple.Com is a good start, but they may find sites like VersionTracker, Mac.Softpedia and Pure-mac.com to be useful as well. I have found any number of items by Googling, so they should be aware of that method.

2) Renaming lists of files is impossible within Aqua, and is difficult to do without AppleScript knowledge. You may want to show them a utility like A Better File Renamer, or Skooby Renamer - because this is a task that is fairly common, and was entirely simple to do with even retarded old DOS, that would drive one whacky with OSX (or for that matter, Windoze).

3) Running multiple web browsers does not clobber OSX, so a switcher should have some awareness of a few different browsers to fit their needs.

4) That as a general rule, OSX software is better written than Windoze software, and that one needs a smaller assortment of tools for OSX because of better development or more useful features built in. For example, Graphic Converter X (yes, I mention it all the time because I use it so very often) is a one stop graphic solution. Sure, it's not Photoshop but it is also not a $1000 per...

5) That OSX is pretty flexible when it comes to interacting with other systems. Perhaps the one issue is that of the ds_store files that freak Windoze users out. The user should be aware of the data/resource fork situation, and that what appears to be one file on OSX is actually two (or more). Not that they have to understand the whys and wherefors - but that they do not need to get freaked out about the "ds_store virus" or the crazy small files with the same name as the real file. They should also be aware of the "Windoze Friendly Attachment" box in Mail, because some Windoze systems are entirely brain damaged and can't handle attachments without it.

6) They should become familiar with the Get Info dialog box because there is much usefulness there. Not only for changing icons, but changing the program that opens certain files or file types, as well as the usefulness of the Locked box, so they do not nuke their original files by mistake.

7) Users should be made aware of certain interface "problems" with the Finder, like the one where you are supposed to be able to customize a finder window and apply it universally - but it never does, though perhaps they finally fixed that with Leopard. This has long frustrated me - but not enough frustration to go to Windoze or something.

8) People that have everything all over the desktop in a big mess, with some crazy graphic background that makes it hard to see icons... Simple is better and much more productive, and at least in OSX, one can do such things - in comparison to Windoze which is just a desktop mess that looks like it was created in some Kindergarten LOGO class.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

The #1 issue, and for which it is so hard to de-learn Windows users, is the "close the window and the application remains running". If they don't see it, it doesn't exist. That's why I quickly teach 'em Command-Tab... so they can visually SEE how many programs are running at any given moment.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

1. "Why doesn't that application take over my entire screen like it does on a PC?"

.


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## fellfromtree (May 18, 2005)

Switched 3 years ago- still right clicking on images to see the image file info ... but it isn't there.


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## meall (Aug 15, 2007)

My GF just has been converted, something she have problems with is the Quit menu located in the application name (vs always in the same File menu on most Windows apps) and she also have the impression that when she closed a window with the red button, the application is gone (like in Windows), which in most case just close a window in a multiple window program such as Pages for instance.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

meall said:


> My GF just has been converted, something she have problems with is the Quit menu located in the application name (vs always in the same File menu on most Windows apps) and she also have the impression that when she closed a window with the red button, the application is gone (like in Windows), which in most case just close a window in a multiple window program such as Pages for instance.


Strange... I learned VERY quick the command+W and command+Q, it just seemed so much easier that aiming at those little circles... let alone file menus!


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

I find the most common frustration is reflexive. When you make a mistake you reach for "control z" instead of "apple z". Making light of that sometimes eases the pain.


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## JSvo (Nov 12, 2007)

One of the things that frustrated (and still frustrates me) the most is that in OS X you can only resize windows in the lower right corner, instead of at every corner and every edge as in Windows.

In fact, it's a big pet peeve to this day, and one thing I do miss from "the past".


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Hey everyone, thanks for the response so far! It's great!

Just for clarification, I am not training employees but rather end users. I work for a reseller and it'll be one of a series of seminars I'll be giving. 

This one will be focussing on customers who have either recently switched or are considering switching.

So please keep sharing your experiences, they help!


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> Following up on Guytoronto's comments, some of the things that switchers should be aware of that I can recall off the top of my head.
> 
> 1) Finding software repositories for OSX. Apple.Com is a good start, but they may find sites like VersionTracker, Mac.Softpedia and Pure-mac.com to be useful as well. I have found any number of items by Googling, so they should be aware of that method.


I'll add a vote for my favourite, MacUpdate.com.



> 2) Renaming lists of files is impossible within Aqua, and is difficult to do without AppleScript knowledge. You may want to show them a utility like A Better File Renamer, or Skooby Renamer - because this is a task that is fairly common


Really? I've been using Macs since the mid-80s and have never had to do this.



> and was entirely simple to do with even retarded old DOS


Well if you are going to use DOS as a yardstick, then I'm sure there is some blitheringly simple shell command that works similarly.



> 3) Running multiple web browsers does not clobber OSX, so a switcher should have some awareness of a few different browsers to fit their needs.


We're talking about people who are NEW to the platform. Overwhelming them with complicated judgement calls about the strengths and weaknesses of only-slightly-differing software is exactly what they are getting away FROM. Choosing a preferred browser is a LONG way down the list of priorities. Safari is arguably the best browser on the market, and although it may not be a be-all and end-all (as if such a thing existed!), it's MORE than good enough for them to use while they learn the basics of the system. Later, when they are SAVVY internet users, PERHAPS they'll want to explore some alternatives.



> That as a general rule, OSX software is better written than Windoze software, and that one needs a smaller assortment of tools for OSX because of better development or more useful features built in. For example, Graphic Converter X (yes, I mention it all the time because I use it so very often) is a one stop graphic solution. Sure, it's not Photoshop but it is also not a $1000 per...


Again, perhaps I'm missing some detail here, but I don't recall anyone saying that these switchers were graphic artists or photographers in need of powerful image-editing apps.

The idea here, EP, is simplicity. Let them learn to use what the machine CAME WITH first, THEN maybe IF they need something more you can look at alternatives. iPhoto and/or Preview should be MORE than sufficient for basic photo editing.



> 7) Users should be made aware of certain interface "problems" with the Finder, like the one where you are supposed to be able to customize a finder window and apply it universally - but it never does, though perhaps they finally fixed that with Leopard. This has long frustrated me - but not enough frustration to go to Windoze or something.


Perhaps the reason it has frustrated you is that it is based on complete misinformation.

You can customise a finder view and then all NEW windows will adopt that preference, but any windows PREVIOUSLY set a different way will OF COURSE retain their previous preference.



> 8) People that have everything all over the desktop in a big mess, with some crazy graphic background that makes it hard to see icons... Simple is better and much more productive, and at least in OSX, one can do such things - in comparison to Windoze which is just a desktop mess that looks like it was created in some Kindergarten LOGO class.


AMEN!


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

On the topic of browsers, for full media accessibility it would be useful to note the importance of Flip4Mac and Perian particularly as you say you are aiming at end users..


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

rgray said:


> On the topic of browsers, for full media accessibility it would be useful to note the importance of Flip4Mac and Perian particularly as you say you are aiming at end users..


Now THAT is a solid tip, and one of the very few instances where someone new to the platform SHOULD add third-party items to the default apps.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

> On the topic of browsers, for full media accessibility it would be useful to note the importance of Flip4Mac and Perian particularly as you say you are aiming at end users..





chas_m said:


> Now THAT is a solid tip, and one of the very few instances where someone new to the platform SHOULD add third-party items to the default apps.


Since your are pitching end users I'd like to reinforce my book reccomendation made earlier.

Also consider giving out a CD with the Perian and Flip4Mac installers. This not only underlines their importance, but with a nice label amounts to 'swag' and acts as advertising for your reseller. 

Further on browsers, while I agree with *chas_m* that one does not want to infect the fundamental simplicity of Mac, it is worth noting that not all sites work in Safari although with the latest version that number has fallen dramatically. Still certain sites don't work - particularly certain university literature review packages. RACER at Carleton and other Ontario universities (used to search all uni libraries in total) - I am looking directly at you! For these the solution that has worked 100% for me is Camino, the installer CD mentioned above might include the latest Camino.

I have had considerable success with the CD-swag gambit.


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## zmttoxics (Oct 16, 2007)

My girlfriend has problems with the quit menu too, but thats about it for her.

For me, I am ok with the interface because I grew up on *nix platforms. My major gripe is OS X Server. I use it at work, and god is it terrible. I can not recommend it to anyone.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

> 2) Renaming lists of files is impossible within Aqua, and is difficult to do without AppleScript knowledge. You may want to show them a utility like A Better File Renamer, or Skooby Renamer - because this is a task that is fairly common


I can't speak for the other programs but I know absolutely no actionscript and I learned how to make Automator sing and dance quite easily. It's my weapon of choice for these tasks and is more useful than most people are aware.

To rename a list of items:
Open automator
Select 'files and folders' workflow from the popup
A window pops open letting you select which files to rename. shift or command click to add multiple folders.
Now in the left column, choose 'files and folders' and from the second column choose "rename menu items" and drag it to the space on the right. It will even ask you if you want to add a Copy files to preserve the originals.
Click and toggle the settings to chose the names and where your copy folders will end up. You can even do common actions like removing spaces from the file names by clicking replace text, putting a space in the top field and leaving the bottom one blank or replacing with a _.
Click the Run button in the top right.
Done.


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## biovizier (Dec 21, 2005)

Big gotcha is that at some level, many users assume OS X is a version of Windows made by Apple, instead of treating it as a different OS with its own conventions (usually with underlying rationale).

Apart from frustrations arising from trying to force Mac to behave like windows, the assumption can get people into trouble because they assume a dialogue that appears in similar circumstances just says the same thing, and like Windows dialogues in general, they click through them without reading.

For example, the ones that can read don't accidentally lose a ton of data when moving a folder into a location that already contains a folder with the same name.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

biovizier said:


> Big gotcha is that at some level, many users assume OS X is a version of Windows made by Apple, instead of treating it as a different OS with its own conventions (usually with underlying rationale).
> 
> Apart from frustrations arising from trying to force Mac to behave like windows, the assumption can get people into trouble because they assume a dialogue that appears in similar circumstances just says the same thing, and like Windows dialogues in general, they click through them without reading.
> 
> For example, the ones that can read don't accidentally lose a ton of data when moving a folder into a location that already contains a folder with the same name.


Isn't that what Windows does as well?


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## sae (Feb 13, 2008)

Some (most) of these have been mentioned before

1) Closing a window vs quitting the program. You might also want to tell them the ADVANTAGES of closing a window while still have the program running. I do this with thunderbird all the time as it eases up sceen real estate

2) OSX is NOT windows. I converted about 4 months ago and when I tell some people I got a mac they ask if it's the new version of Windows

3) use of spaces and hot corners and widgets'

4) adding / removing programs (two methods - the one that looks more like Windows program install where you have to click next a few times and the other one where you drop the program into apps folder)

5) adding / removing items from the dock

6) OSX doesn't have NEARLY as many popup yes/no/cancel buttons so don't expect them

7) Don't try to force OSX do to things the windows way (i.e. you might have to reverse program them to get rid of some of the complicated ways in which you have to get things done on windows - like add/remove programs)

8) How to create an alias vs a shortcut

9) what is system preferences and how they work

10) moving one folder into another replaces that folder and doesn't merge them as it does in windows (Actually this is one area where I wish OSX was like windows)

11) if you download an application don't use the one in the disk image on your desktop, use the one in the applications folder and delete the disk image (you'll have to show them that you can drag a disk image to the trash to 'eject' it) - Also that you can eject cd's by dragging to the trash

12) I use a lot of keyboard shortcuts and when I realized that I didn't have to relearn them all and I could just subtitute ctrl with apple key then I was happy!

13) clicking on an icon once and then pressing enter will rename it and not open it (you need to do apple+o) - actually I like the way windows does this better than mac also. I would rather press enter to open the file instead of renaming it

14) home and end work differently. You can change the way these keys work by downloading a 'fix' but I have noticed that the 'fix' doesn't work in all programs (example is thunderbird) so you might as well teach them apple+left and apple+right

I would also show them some off the cool programs (I live stickies!) and the simplicity of how things work on the mac.


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## biovizier (Dec 21, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Isn't that what Windows does as well?


From what I understand, it doesn't, as "sae" conveniently has just explained in point number 10.


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## biovizier (Dec 21, 2005)

Here's another one:

Don't just yank out your flash drives when you're done with them or else you may corrupt the directory and lose all of your data. You aren't supposed to yank it on Windows either, although many people do, but I get the impression corruption happens more frequently on a Mac.

I guess Windows has a setting where you can disable caching or something so that it is actually safe to disconnect a drive as long as it isn't actively writing. On the Mac, even if the user isn't doing anything, Spotlight might be indexing or there may be other things going on in the background.

So always "Eject".


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## JSvo (Nov 12, 2007)

There's some good info in this thread!

I'd also add that right-clicking, an absolute necessity in Windows, is much less so in OS X, and is in fact even discouraged as evidenced by Apple's continued insistence on producing single-button mice (oh, Apple  ).

You may wish to mention that you can use any kind of mouse you want with Macs (some people _still_ believe that you're forced to use a single-button...) and that therefore they'll have access to right-clicking the way they're used to, or that they can Ctrl-click with their single-button to get a right-click menu as necessary.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

chas_m said:


> I'll add a vote for my favourite, MacUpdate.com.


There are lots of helpful sites... But I think it is more that regular Windoze users will be used to places like TuCows and places like that - while for a beginning Mac user, such places are not so obvious. Even when I started with my first Mac, I exploited Google ruthlessly simply because of the lack of users around here at the time, so it wasn't like I knew people that knew the repositories. I think the exact sites are not so important - but to explain that Google is the prime tool if you do run into something, as it is as simple as putting a +mac or +osx on the Goole search.

I like Pure-Mac.com because it is fairly simple, loads quickly, and is very fast to use. I also like The SourceForge, but that may be too much for newbie users since a lot of items are Betaware or Gammaware - but that is where I found OpenTransport Tycoon, which was one of the reasons why I used to turn on my Dos box on a regular basis. Now only if I could find a way to edit Doom Wads on the Mac...



> Really? I've been using Macs since the mid-80s and have never had to do this.


I have lots of applications when I need to rename files in an automatic fashion. Sure, I could write an AppleScript - but a canned solution like I suggested may be a good tool for some users. For instance, I may receive a CD from a fellow researcher filled with graphics, and their naming will not be compatible with my indexing system for Accessions - so I just use Skooby Renamer and I can index a whole CD worth of files in moments. Some people insist on using the factory default file names from their camera, which leads to conflicts with the identically named files from another camera. Of course, the Finder can be used to rename individual files, but without a utility, one would spend a huge amount of time renaming a thousand pictures.



> Well if you are going to use DOS as a yardstick, then I'm sure there is some blitheringly simple shell command that works similarly.


Sure, but the OP is talking about end users - not people who would normally hack around inside the shell. In fact, they may not even have access to the Terminal, and may not know how to write an AppleScript - Skooby Renamer (or whatever) is a far simpler solution.



> Choosing a preferred browser is a LONG way down the list of priorities.


People are accustomed to Internet Exploder... But choosing a browser or browsers is a very real problem in this day and age. On the Mac, IE is quite ancient, but for some sites, it may be the only browser that will work. No matter what improvements, until web page designers refrain from proprietary codes that crash out certain browsers over others, it will be a very real problem.

Also, in some workplaces, certain browsers must be used by policy. For instance, my girlfriend must have Netscape on her machine because it is company policy - and if she logged on with a different browser, she could be disciplined or fired for her action.

I don't think one needs to dip into the idiosyncrasies of different browsers, but even the newest users should be aware that on a Mac, all browsers are treated more or less equally, and will co-exist with no problems. Safari is a good browser, but is becoming aged and it can not handle popular FireFox add-ons, so right there peopl like to know there is a choice in the matter.



> iPhoto and/or Preview should be MORE than sufficient for basic photo editing.


Except that they are fairly useless for any kind of photo editing. And I never did say that they should learn all these other packages at first. With reference to the OP, going beyond something like Preview does not just entail spending thousands of dollars on fancy packages, but can be as simple as something like GCX. One could have a pretty good presentation on the power of GCX, which is a utility that I use quite often - and I am not doing graphic arts, but rather, handling photographs. Preview can not change the DIP of a photograph, nor can it scale a photograph to my knowledge.



> You can customise a finder view and then all NEW windows will adopt that preference, but any windows PREVIOUSLY set a different way will OF COURSE retain their previous preference.


Except that it doesn't work, and Apple never bothered fixing it for five or six years. From what I understand, it now works under Leopard, but they never did fix it under Jaguar/Panther/Tiger. For instance, I really do hate the default giant icon per file view, but I can only change it to list view on a folder by folder basis, which is time consuming (though it should be easy since the option box is there, but doesn't work!)


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## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

Jesus EvanPitts, are you really serious in the "facts" you're advancing? Safari is "aging" and hasn't seen updates in a while? IE (what, 5.1) still viable for some sites? 

Stop saying that kind of thing unless you KNOW the person you're addressing is still stuck in Jaguar or Panther, otherwise you're saying it so seriously it could be misleading for someone looking for honest advice on an up-to-date Mac...

Patrix.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

sae said:


> 10) moving one folder into another replaces that folder and doesn't merge them as it does in windows (Actually this is one area where I wish OSX was like windows)


I've worked in Windows for years, as well as Mac, and I still don't understand this problem with Switchers. On the Mac, if you try to paste / drag-and-drop a folder into a directory that has an identically-named folder, you get a clear warning that you will replace the existing folder. I read about Switchers freaking out because they've lost files by doing this - but... there's sufficient warning, no?



JSvo said:


> I'd also add that right-clicking, an absolute necessity in Windows, is much less so in OS X, and is in fact even discouraged as evidenced by Apple's continued insistence on producing single-button mice (oh, Apple ).


Um.... Apple hasn't sold single-button mice in, what.. a year? Two years? 



M


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

CubaMark said:


> I've worked in Windows for years, as well as Mac, and I still don't understand this problem with Switchers. On the Mac, if you try to paste / drag-and-drop a folder into a directory that has an identically-named folder, you get a clear warning that you will replace the existing folder. I read about Switchers freaking out because they've lost files by doing this - but... there's sufficient warning, no?


Maybe WhineDo$ users learn to ignore (ridiculously cryptic) error messages..????


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## JSvo (Nov 12, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Um.... Apple hasn't sold single-button mice in, what.. a year? Two years?


My bad. Is the Mighty Mouse now standard with every new desktop? I haven't bought a new Mac in several years, so I don't know what they come with nowadays.

I'd just assumed:









:yikes:


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

The Mighty Mouse comes with every new desktop! 

...and as you may know, all Mac laptops have right-click capability built-into the touchpad (just configure in System Preferences).

M


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

patrix said:


> Safari is "aging" and hasn't seen updates in a while? IE (what, 5.1) still viable for some sites?


I can't update my Safari past 1.2, hence it is an aging product, though it still serves a purpose. But it does not have the capability of the all important triumvirate of add-ons: AdBlock, FlashBlock and StopAutoPlay - things that make web browsing bearable these days. (Most web sites are about the glitz rather than any actual content.)

Some sites will not run with Safari, but will run with Exploder 5.23 - mostly government sites but some other assorted brain damaged sites as well. Sometimes you just need Exploder to do these things, no matter how obsolete it is.



> Stop saying that kind of thing unless you KNOW the person you're addressing is still stuck in Jaguar or Panther


Last I heard or read, Jaguar and Panther are still considered to be OSX versions. As for "up to date", you could also say "bloated beyond all belief". Besides, the argument you put forward will just lead to yet another endless debate over elitism and elite system versus the practical systems that people will use on a daily basis.

So, if you think that people should be stuck in the one browser and that is Interblech Exploder mentality - perhaps you should stick with crummy old Fi$ta because that is what that platform is all about. On a Mac, people do have very real choices, and that should be encouraged because it makes for a much better system overall.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

biovizier said:


> Big gotcha is that at some level, many users assume OS X is a version of Windows made by Apple, instead of treating it as a different OS with its own conventions (usually with underlying rationale).


Years ago, I had a customer that was pretty sure they were running Windoze when they were actually running DosShell. Same mentality. Sometimes the clueless shouldn't be put in front of an operating system...



> ...and like Windows dialogues in general, they click through them without reading.
> 
> For example, the ones that can read don't accidentally lose a ton of data when moving a folder into a location that already contains a folder with the same name.


And no one read the all important line... Yes, Windoze lusers are their own worst enemy sometimes. No wonder why they get trojaned into submission, they just download whatever, willy-nilly, without even thinking about it. As for moving files, Windoze is filled with so many inconsistent dialogue boxes, and the average user is so annoyed at having to use it, they can even clobber their data by moving a file. It happens all the time at my girlfriend's workplace, where the fingers move much faster than the thought process.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

JSvo said:


> TI'd also add that right-clicking, an absolute necessity in Windows, is much less so in OS X, and is in fact even discouraged as evidenced by Apple's continued insistence on producing single-button mice (oh, Apple  ).


This would be incorrect.

Apple hasn't produced a single-button mouse in years. The current models may LOOK like single button mice, but are in fact two (actually four) button mice. You can SET them to be single-button if you want, but by default they are set for three-button (left-click, wheel-click and side-click) and you can turn on the "right click" by simply visiting the Mouse/Trackpad system preference pane.


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

I'll give you a pet peeve. 

It can't run my bloody SAP Netweaver software.

APPLE WHY CAN'T YOU GROW UP AND START DOING BIG BOY STUFF. (No Microsoft Office does not count)


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> Except that [iPhoto is] fairly useless for any kind of photo editing.


This would be completely incorrect.

EP, you really should preface all your posts with "I am about five versions behind the current version of OS X, as are all my apps, but ..." and then people would I think understand your perspective better. Safari is not an "aging app" unless you are on 10.3. And contrary to your assertion, AdBlock and other also-on-Firefox plugins work fine, many developers offer versions for both browsers.

iPhoto may not be as powerful a photo editor as GCX or even PSE6, but it has a wide range of tools beyond what the average "n00b" requires, as seen in this screenshot (and this is not the limit of iPhoto's editing ability!):










Since you evidently don't use iPhoto 08, I wouldn't expect you to know this, BUT any new person to the Mac WILL be using iPhoto 08 and so you not knowing this means you're actively giving out MISinformation.

You really should either update your information, or caveat in your posts that what you know applies to 10.3.x only.


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

chas_m said:


> iPhoto may not be as powerful a photo editor as GCX or even PSE6, but it has a wide range of tools beyond what the average "n00b" requires...


Agreed! While the first few versions of iPhoto weren't all that impressive, the last couple of versions are incredibly capable at not just photo management, but also photo editing. Heck, if it weren't for Aperture's white balance tool I'd still be using iPhoto.


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## Corbeau (Apr 25, 2008)

switchers, how long did it take you to stop doing "command-F-then-O" to try to open a file from within the application?


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

Corbeau said:


> switchers, how long did it take you to stop doing "command-F-then-O" to try to open a file from within the application?


Not very long, I got so bored and confused because my pinky would reach for the ctrl key instead that I just got lazy and started using my mouse.

You have to be persistent.


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## spitfire1945 (May 17, 2008)

chas_m said:


>


wow thats it? thats all that iPhoto got? Looks pretty useless too me considering your average n00b doesn't know what color saturation and hue saturation do to a photo... hell how man myspace and facebook photos do you see with correct brightness or even with correct focus.

PS. It seems like all your blues are underexposed and the rest of the colours overexposed. You may want to check your histogram.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

spitfire1945 said:


> wow thats it? thats all that iPhoto got?


"Photo may not be as powerful a photo editor as GCX or even PSE6, but it has a wide range of tools beyond what the average "n00b" requires, as seen in this screenshot (*and this is not the limit of iPhoto's editing ability!*)"

Emphasis for the comprehension-challenged ...


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## JSvo (Nov 12, 2007)

chas_m said:


> This would be incorrect.
> 
> Apple hasn't produced a single-button mouse in years. The current models may LOOK like single button mice, but are in fact two (actually four) button mice. You can SET them to be single-button if you want, but by default they are set for three-button (left-click, wheel-click and side-click) and you can turn on the "right click" by simply visiting the Mouse/Trackpad system preference pane.


Uh, *CubaMark* and I hashed this out a ways back already. Don't you read the _entire_ thread before posting?


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Yes I did, however I felt my post expanded on the information he offered, particularly since you didn't seem to be fully aware. CubaMark simply corrected you, I added specifics about how that works for your benefit and the benefit of others reading this thread who might also not have known. Cheers.


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## JSvo (Nov 12, 2007)

Chas, I was attempting to be friendly in my reply as I figured maybe you actually hadn't read every post here, no big deal, thus your redundant reply.

You may be surprised by this, but I do know what a Mighty Mouse is, how many buttons it has, how it functions, and what System Preferences is. rolleyes: )

I have two Macs, an early MBP, and an old G5, so I haven't bought a new Mac in a few years. As I explained to *CubaMark* (and the point that he, unlike you, understood), was that I wasn't aware of which mouse was being included with current computers. Unlike you, he understood that I'm not an idiot, just misinformed about current shipping practices.

You seem to have this habit lately of including a bit of condescension in your posts, whether intentional or not. My advice to you, if I may be so bold, is to *not* assume your audience is composed of total novices. Kay?


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