# Visual recession....what are you seeing



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Went out the other day and noticed traffic seemed light. Did not think of it.

Went out a few days later, traffic on the QEW - normally iffy around Oakville during the day...moving along briskly, no sign of clog in either direction.

Was going to lunch with a friend .....quizzed him......is it my imagination????

Nope, he says he's noticed it - he's in Burlington - another busy area......he noted trucks missing.

Was cruising the 407 today where there are usually kilometers of parked transmodal flatbeds on the parallel rail line.
Nearly all gone ........instead - km after km of parked car carriers ( rail version ).....

Of course every largish empty lot is packed with new vehicles.

Every time I'm in the bank......it's quieter......

It feels weird as we're still quite busy ( especially this week ) but when I get out.........just a tad disconcerting.

Anyone else notice changes ........


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

It hasn't hit Victoria yet (really), we're all just kind of praying that the stronger (at the moment) US dollar lasts through tourist season so we get a lot of tourists here this year.

The only obvious sign I've seen is some building projects (read: housing developments) have slowed or stopped due to credit issues.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Other than all those boxcars full of men in caps with rolled up sleeves not much.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I was in West Edmonton Mall yesterday afternoon at the Apple store. The traffic was so busy that the normally 20 minute drive from home took 40 minutes and it took me another 10 minutes to find a parking spot. The mall was so crowded, walking the corridors was a chore. It reminded me of Christmas. When I got to the Apple store, I had an appointment at the Genius Bar for 1:45 but they were still dealing with three others in front of me and I had to wait. The store was so packed that there were no where near enough sales reps to look after people wanting to buy. It surprised me as all I read about is doom and gloom, but I think that is media driven. Consumers here apparently have no idea there is a recession. The logic board in my MBP was toast on top of it all. A month ago the super drive gave up. Sigh.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

I'd have to say that out here in Saskatchewan, the recession is affecting us :clap::clap:

This article headlined *CNN plug boosts hits on Sask. job website* goes on to say:



> SASKATOON — Suddenly, Saskatchewan is on the map for job-seekers in all 50 United States.
> 
> An article about Saskatchewan posted on CNN.com this week with the headline "Saskatchewan a jobs hot spot in Canada" has attracted record American visits to the SaskJobs.ca website.
> 
> ...


and



> "Saskatchewan continues to be a light in a dim global economic situation," said Rob Norris, the province's employment and labour minister.


Everybody I talk to says that the way to keep the economy moving is to "keep it moving" - if you have a good job and want a new tv but don't buy it because you've heard that there's a recession, you're contributing to the problem. 

But nobody I've talked to has a degree in economics, so what do we know.

Margaret


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

No difference in Toronto. The bank was so busy the other day I was worried there might be a run on cash. Likewise the Apple Store. I'm standing in line everywhere and trucks and construction vehicles keep blocking traffic. I'm not a huge moviegoer, but have heard that major films are seeing record attandance.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

The malls have less people buying, but home sale prices are actually up a bit and the market is still warm. We never heated up re home prices here in St.John's, so it has been a gradual and steady upwards trend.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Margaret, I read that CNN article on Saskatchewan when it first was posted. Found it interesting in that most Americans could not find SK on a map of Canada if asked, I would venture to bet, let along spell Saskatchewan.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I think realtors are trying the brave face "never a better time" trip here but people are sitting tight according to the Star.
That was overdue anyways. People are re-evaluating their shelter costs.

Alberta's always a little slow to catch on 

I do think Canada is well positioned and sans the car industry issue we'd not have a major crisis and it might be time to actually shrink gov payroll with the economy. 

One can hope vested interests from all levels will recognize their pampered status and take some cuts with grace.

Certainly clients with US exposure are seeing problems and a couple almost went under 

Because we are at a auto industry highway bottleneck right here ( Oakville and Oshawa trucks funnel right along the QEW ) that might account for the lighter traffic.

Grocery stores seem busy. Not many for lease signs yet tho a few in prominent spots that normally would fill quickly.

I recall the depth of the 82 recession the strip industrials were just flat out empty - maybe 1 in 10 filled....very spooky.
So many businesses went under.

The low interest rates this time make a big difference to survival.

The retiree - retiring segment being so large this time has some play as well.



> I'm not a huge moviegoer, but have heard that major films are seeing record attandance.


That occurred in the 30s too.
I wonder how the Danforth looks on a Friday or Saturday night - I recall in 92 the Danforth came roaring back to life and I knew the worst was over.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> I think realtors are trying the brave face "never a better time" trip here but people are sitting tight according to the Star.
> That was overdue anyways. People are re-evaluating their shelter costs.


I think people are not so much evaluating shelter costs as deciding that they can wait before moving to "Exclusive Area X." I think a lot of it is based on ideas about status.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I don't.
Party is over...that was soooo 80s.

People are starting to figure out what it means to sign up for the "average" house at $400k.



> *Shell-shocked consumers ignoring lowered rates*
> 
> THE CANADIAN PRESS
> OTTAWA – Jim Rawson says it's a great time to buy a house. The regional manager of Invis mortgage brokerage firm in Toronto has been in the business since 1978 and has never seen interest rates, both variable and fixed, so low. Pair that with falling housing prices and it's a no-brainer.
> ...


TheStar.com | Business | Shell-shocked consumers ignoring lowered rates

The con game has lost its allure. 'Bout bloody time.


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

I once read that 1 out of 3 jobs in Southern Ontario are directly or indirectly related to the auto industry. So, the decreased truck traffic that MacDoc is noticing is probably real. Less cars being built, less parts being moved.

Here, in Central Etobicoke, the most obvious visual sign of recession is the for sale signs that stay up for months. Used to be weeks or even days.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

The housing market has definitely slowed in our area. As hhk says For Sale signs are staying up a lot longer. I can't say that I am seeing more of them, it is just taking longer to sell, part of being a buyers market, people can't get the price they are looking for so instead of selling they are holding on.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

There's a lot of great buys in apartment buildings out there.... prices are down. Financing is a bit tougher to get--the banks are way more stringent than they used to be, perhaps absurdly so in some cases--but interest rates are low. We're a bit overextended at the moment, but otherwise we'd likely be acquiring. 

A colleague of ours just financed a building at 3.5%. That is unheard of for commercial rates--it's practically free money. I'm in the process of refinancing another building, so I am hoping for something similar.... on a large mortgage, this makes a huge difference.

Plus, renting is up, since a lot of people have been put off buying. (Despite it being a great time to buy.) 

Vacancy is down, prices are down, interest rates are down.... It's a good time to be in this business.... or get into this business.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> I don't.
> Party is over...that was soooo 80s.


In Toronto it hasn't stopped. Location is everything and people are still playing musical chairs to move up to he area they want--just a little more careful about it.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

I dunno... the Gardiner Expressway (west bound) is still packed solid everyday.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

I am noticing significant changes even in Calgary. New housing starts are way down, many large commercial projects have been slowed or halted mid project. Many O&G companies have massively reeled in their cap ex for this year, opting to focus on merely maintaining the holdings they have now. Layoffs have begun, but so far are minor compared to previous down cycles. 

Real Estate continues to dog it. Prices are still lowering, but seemingly at a slower rate than the last 6 months...is it stopping? I don't know, but I'm betting not. But those whose incomes rely on being able to move real estate are saying so and already singing the song of prices rising. I anticipate waiting at least another year before putting any more equity into real estate. 

Discretionary/luxury spending has visibly been reined in....I notice this the most in restaurants - where a year ago there would be a long wait at the door to get in to these establishments, now, I can be seated in a few minutes if not immediately.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

In Southern AB, things are pretty much unchanged so far. On a recent roadtrip I also saw very little difference in MT and WY. 

However when I drove I-25 from the CO/WYO border to Denver the change was quite dramatic. Normally this is a white-knuckle stretch, bumper to bumper at 70 MPH and at some point you could bet on having a semi in front, one behind and one beside leaving you in a sandwich of death. This time there was one point where no semis were in view or in the mirrors in either direction. This continued for well over a mile! Traffic itself was so much lighter that drivers were giving themselves a 3-5 second gap. That is a really visible change.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

Haven't noticed any real change. Last few flights I've taken have been packed to the gunnels. (Most of the passengers were either returning from or on their way to vacation, lucky sods, while all my travel is business related). Still can't find a decent hotel in Alberta or Saskatchewan with less than a week's notice. Car rental places are still regularly fully booked. Good restaurants are still busy. If anything it's taken some of the pressure off, and driven a few of the fly-by-night operators out of business. People are still spending, but just a bit more thoughtfully. Just not quite as frenetic, but the economy out here was overheated* anyway, so getting back to 'normal' will be good for everyone. 

(*$140BBL was the economy on crack.)


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

The condo market has really collapsed. I know of several people who put deposits down on investment condos are now trying to get out of them. On the bright side, my neighbourhood association has been fighting a condo project that is twice as big as allowed on the "official plan". Looks like the economy won the fight for us.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Condominiums to me have always been the investment vehicle of last resort for people afraid to miss out on a real estate boom--they're also the first to collapse.


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## Smoothfonzo (May 17, 2007)

Here in Sudbury, we're getting hit really hard due to the decline in the nickel industry since there's less demand for it due to the decline of the auto industry. Tons of jobs are being cut.

Heh, I was looking for an article about the nickel industry and came upon this:

Alberta no longer holds bragging rights among provinces for economic growth*-*Investing Canadian Press Business News - Sympatico / MSN Finance

Anyway, here's the one I was looking for:

reportonbusiness.com: Vale says layoffs don't violate jobs deal


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

MLeh said:


> Last few flights I've taken have been packed to the gunnels. (Most of the passengers were either returning from or on their way to vacation, lucky sods, while all my travel is business related). Still can't find a decent hotel in Alberta or Saskatchewan with less than a week's notice. Car rental places are still regularly fully booked. Good restaurants are still busy. If anything it's taken some of the pressure off, and driven a few of the fly-by-night operators out of business. People are still spending, but just a bit more thoughtfully. Just not quite as frenetic, but the economy out here was overheated* anyway, so getting back to 'normal' will be good for everyone.
> 
> (*$140BBL was the economy on crack.)


We've noticed that flights are packed to rafters too - but have you noticed that the airlines are typically flying the smaller planes and offering less flight choices? 

We've seen notices of auctions of rental cars ...these in themselves aren't usual, but the number of cars in them is. I wondered if the car companies were paring their inventories down in response to a downturn of business. I don't know.

Edit: addendum: Plus a real life example is the difference in response to a career ad for the same (geologist) position within my husband's group. 5-6 months ago, the ad generated 5 responses - none of which were even remotely qualified, nor worth interviewing. Last week, the exact same ad ran....62 responses so far and already at least a half dozen worth interviewing.


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## imobile (Oct 6, 2007)

*Most American's could not find Canada on a map!*



Dr.G. said:


> Margaret, I read that CNN article on Saskatchewan when it first was posted. Found it interesting in that most Americans could not find SK on a map of Canada if asked, I would venture to bet, let along spell Saskatchewan.



Nasty?
Not really.

I spent a lot of time in California in the last few decades!
Was asked a number of times, how long does it take to drive a big rig to Canada? A week?
When I said Sacramento is but 15.5 hours ( LA 23 ) from Blaine , Wa ( u know, up near Seattle ~ where the Seahawks play! ) they were stunned! ( Of course a lot of Angeltos didn't really know where Sacramento was either! )

And then there was the mature aged 'college student' in a bar in Yakima, Wa who said he was studying History and he proudly knew Canada was not a democracy because it was 'ruled' by a monarch?
I asked, was that not a 'butterfly'?

Trying to explain the Westminster system of governance, Durham Report , Confederation debates, The BNA Act etc was a waste of a few Samuel Adams!
( must confess defending an 'appointed' Senate was NOT possible! )

Then again, I've met proud BC 'ers (who trash American's for their insularity) who have never been south of Seattle and never heard of 'Manifest Destiny' ...... ummm a Kentucky Derby winner eh?


As for Canadian geography knowledge.
Still recall a Gr 10 Social's class where in early 1980's I gave the kids a blank map of Canada on Day 1 in September and asked them to match a list of 25 places with the 1 to 25 on the map!
Was not a 'test' per se, just wanted to know where they were 'at' .
Class was really upset when a new arrival from Hong Kong ( via three years in Sydney) beat em all!

End of rave!


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

My business (sunscreen) last month has doubled it's sales compared to last year. This is due to people going on vacation as MLeh stated. They are not just buying one bottle. 4- 6 is the average. Although most of my customers are coming from Alberta and BC. Ontario is coming up second with a few from the east.

I was out looking for a car yesterday and all of the domestic lots were empty. The foreign lots had a few people in them, but the busiest were the used lots.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

I've seen a different visual angle - sales.

it seems like a ton of stores are having sales:

- I'm getting emails from Staples with deep discounts on electronics
- grocery stores saying they're 'holding prices' and their clothing/toys/dvd & games sections with big sales
- Zellers has a bunch of tables in the aisles with heavily discounted items
- tv commercials.

It would be all marketing ploys, but that's what i'm seeing. I'm just waiting for deep discounts on tvs 

Speaking of transportation, I recently took a trip back to Northern Ontario and did comment that they didn't seem to be as many transports on the road. It's weird not to encounter an insane amount.

Cheers,
Keebler


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well hells bells I find myself agreeing with macfury.

What we're seeing in real estate in Toronto is hardly surprising. Housing go boom, housing go bust. on and on. This time round, some differences than say the 90s bust. late 80s, housing prices soared over a short period of time, and busted in a short time, hard. I also remember those expensive condos, which plummeted and crashed really hard. 

This time round, the rise was far more gradual than the late 80s. I bought in 99 in the east end, and over 10 years, as opposed to over 3 years or less, it rose. We just sold in November, still did very well $$ wise, bought in downtown in December, and go one for quite a bit less than original asking. Like 90k less. Killer location.

What I saw, first off, no longer were there bidding wars. Right there on a 400k+ house, a drop of 25 to 60k right there. Houses started getting offers 10-20k less than asking. The houses that listed too high, never sold. Once you list too high, HUGE mistake, and many are still making it. We listed according to market, great house, bang, in a couple weeks, sold.

I think we'll see a continued softening, but it'll be particularly harsh on the kazillions of cookie cutters in the suburbs (already being hard nailed), bad locations, million+ houses, and I am waiting to see what happens to the condo market. When the 'speulator' segment starts freaking, that's when we'll see a crash I'm thinking.

I agree on this though. Location, location, location. That will hold on in value well, and when we see a recovery, whenever that will be, prices will again, go even higher than we saw in 07. I predict, waaay higher.

Business wise. I just hired a fill time guy, and we're looking at taking on another programmer. Business hasn't been better. Of course we're being conservative, and bracing somewhat.


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## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

I was in our local mall the other day, quite a few empty stores.

Yesterday we were in Yorkdale, the place was packed, almost as bad as Christmas. Lots of people window shopping but very few people holding purchases.....

Kevin


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> it seems like a ton of stores are having sales:
> 
> - I'm getting emails from Staples with deep discounts on electronics{/quote]
> 
> ...


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

taxes? You mean we'll be paying as much as mississauga?


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> > Invested in any roads, schools, libraries universities lately??......oh wait - they are not speculation targets....hmmmmmm
> 
> 
> Invested in any apartment buildings lately? No?
> ...


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

The malls around here have tons of empty stores in them - and downtown, well, is it empty and dumpy looking as usual, though I must say, there is lots of new chipboard up on some of the windows.

Of course, there is still the same amount of smog, despite the fact that US Steel Canada is closed...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

EvanPitts said:


> The malls around here have tons of empty stores in them - and downtown, well, is it empty and dumpy looking as usual, though I must say, there is lots of new chipboard up on some of the windows.


I hear someone is thinking of opening a Scotch Tape store in one of the malls.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Invested in any roads, schools, libraries universities lately??......oh wait - they are not speculation targets....hmmmmmm
> 
> I suppose we could do what some enlightened places do and tax the speculative gains to the tune of 90% the first year ( declining 10% a year ) and build roads, schools, libraries universities
> 
> Win win situation.......


I don't care if anyone engages in speculation--that's a bug up your butt, but it's no grief to me. If people decide en masse that they all want to live in one city or one part of the city all at once, then it's up to me to decide not to get in on that. If someone wants to take advantage of such a market, by all means let them. Much of this isn't just speculation anyway--just individuals getting hyped up about buying a house.

I agree with Groovetube's approac. Decide where you want to live, make reasonable real estate decisions and respect the current market with your asking and offering prices. 

Your "win-win" is just designed to make you feel better. It's like saying "take away all of the speculators' profits to build a hydrogen grid." It's just two disconnected thoughts.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I check the MLS listing every day and some of the asking prices are still "stupid". But I'm seeing the properties on there for months.

I sold my house in High Park November 07 for 80k more than the asking price in 4 days. No regrets. Happy to rent while prices drop.

Saw an older Mississauga bungalow for sale last month. It sold for 25k more than the asking price and it sold in one day. Not surprising considering the price was about 150k less than the average price of properties in that location...but it needed as much in renovations. Still, people saw a bargain and fought for it.

I considered buying a legal triplex or even a sixplex in a good location. Live in one and rent the other units, but I don't know if I want the hassles of being a landlord.

I'd prefer 20AC in the country and a board and baton shack completely off the grid.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

KC4 said:


> We've noticed that flights are packed to rafters too - but have you noticed that the airlines are typically flying the smaller planes and offering less flight choices?


Nope. 99% of the time I'm on Westjet. All 737s.  Haven't really noticed much change from this time last year for flight frequency. (January - April is typically a slower travel period anyway.)


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

MLeh said:


> Nope. 99% of the time I'm on Westjet. All 737s.  Haven't really noticed much change from this time last year for flight frequency. (January - April is typically a slower travel period anyway.)


Hmmmm, interesting. We usually fly A/C or Continental and have sure noticed it.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

In My Car Dealership we do not get nearly the amount of customers we used to (And we own a japanese Car Dealership) but this also plays part with the winter, no one wants to buy cars in -14


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Your "win-win" is just designed to make you feel better. It's like saying "take away all of the speculators' profits to build a hydrogen grid." It's just two disconnected thoughts.


No it's not but we know where the disconnect twixt ears lies on that.
GT as fellow mindset.!!!????.....you wish. 

You'd like your own little chunk of the 401 to milk in MFworld.
Wannabe Afghan warlord.
•••

Talked to a client today who drives a fair bit and he's noticed a traffic drop in his travels about the GTA.

Busy in Longo's this morning - no change at all BUT I've noticed fewer sales in the food sections as if profitability is being focused on rather than marketshare or growth. That may extend from the food processors also not promoting "deals".

Certainly fruits and even most vegetables seem a tad on the up side on pricing - might be time of year too.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I hear someone is thinking of opening a Scotch Tape store in one of the malls.


Perhaps, though a better idea would be for a Bankrupcy Trustee to open up shop, which would save on the commuting. They could put a Sheriff's Office there to, it would be convenient.

As for retail, I think the retailers fragged themselves, mostly by offering bad service and having poorly trained and poorly motivated staff. Last Christmas really took the cake for me. All of the retailers kept complaining that sales were down and that things were going recession - but try to buy a digital photo frame from one of them. Sure, I can see them on the shelf, but there was no one around to get me the real product. It was such a hassle. Not to mention the cordless telephone that I wanted to buy, which was on sale but has been "out of stock" for the past three months. So much for Christmas presents.

I don't think Scotch Tape would do much for Hamilton, perhaps gaint rolls of hard core, WWII style duct tape, of the kind they used to tape tanks together with...

Hamilton has been in a visual recession ever since the 1981 Recession - and it has never recovered from that one properly, even in the salad days when every business was getting tons of cash from the Government to relocate to Brantford. It was obviously more important that Hamilton got an old, rusted out ship rather than business and jobs - thanks Shiela!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> No it's not but we know where the disconnect twixt ears lies on that.
> GT as fellow mindset.!!!????.....you wish.
> 
> You'd like your own little chunk of the 401 to milk in MFworld.
> ...


MacDoc, you've launched yourself into outer space again. That's not a post, it's a word salad.


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

One thing to look at with the traffic in malls is how full are their arms. Malls can quite often be used as free recreation.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Oakbridge said:


> One thing to look at with the traffic in malls is how full are their arms. Malls can quite often be used as free recreation.


Thats so true. I used to show my work at art festivals years ago and you'd often see throngs of people but nobody buying. We used to call them ice cream lickers since they were often browsing along with an ice cream cone pushing a baby stroller. Malls can be exactly the same. People passing the time browsing the new goodies they can't afford or really don't want. It can look busy but sales are scarce.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Anyone in the Beach???



> *Recession toppling businesses in Beach*
> COLIN MCCONNELL/TORONTO STAR
> 
> he signs that the economic tsunami has hit the Beach are everywhere.
> ...


more
TheStar.com | GTA | Recession toppling businesses in Beach


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I'm close to the Beach. Businesses with strong hooks in the community and a reputation for service and other 'value-added' niceties are hanging in... it's businesses which were built on less robust foundations which are toppling. These days, if you want to remain viable you have to really work at it. Some businesses are simply not prepared to meet these greater challenges. You might also have to downshift your target demographics a tad - stuff aimed only at the top percentile of the 'hood's wealthiest citizens might not do so well nowadays.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I was just down there, I just moved from that area, I agree. Most of the 'regulars' all seemed to be open.

Certainly it's tough in retail, no question, but the media needs a swift punch in the face and can it with the sensationalism.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

groovetube said:


> Certainly it's tough in retail, no question, but the media needs a swift punch in the face and can it with the sensationalism.


I think it has already bit them in the a** with the layoffs and huge drop in ad revenue. Just watch how quickly they'll change their tune. All except the CBC of course.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> can it with the sensationalism.


 

I suggest you catch Passionate Eye ( was on tonight ) and watch *Inside the Meltdown.*

Clips
YouTube - (Pt. 1 only) PBS Frontline - Inside the Meltdown
YouTube - FRONTLINE | Inside the Meltdown | Sneak Peek 2 | PBS

and tell us again about sensationalism.........

You clearly have NO idea......

•••

We are VERY fortunate in Canada - it's hell out there elsewhere....and we are far from immune..


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macdoc, there is a big difference, between being very keenly aware of what's going on, and tiring of the doom moaning over such items as queen east.

Give me a break.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

besides. Buffet says it'll all be alright.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

I've noticed that traffic on Deerfoot trail in Calgary has been a *lot* lighter since Christmas.

I think a lot of companies are laying off a few at a time as projects wind down - so we don't see many stories of mass layoffs, but over time the job losses are significant.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah the economy is much larger and robust than in the 30s and there are far fewer kids in the pipeline.
I'm seeing a little crumbling here and there - in many respects it's a long overdue catch of reality with pipedreams but it's gonna hurt many, a few deservedly.

I want to see how the pampered and protected fare when the teat goes dry.

THIS I like



> Staying at home so others don't have to
> 
> Four-day week growing way to stave off layoffs in a declining economy


TheStar.com | Business | Staying at home so others don't have to

Do you think maybe a voluntary pay cut by politicians????

••

BTW here is the link for the entire *Inside the Meltdown*

FRONTLINE: inside the meltdown: watch the full program | PBS


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> I want to see how the pampered and protected fare when the teat goes dry.


Well, as they are pampered AND protected, I think they will fare quite well.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Y
> THIS I like
> 
> 
> ...


During a radio interview with the director of the Daily Bread Foodbank she said that there is an increase in demand --not from jobless or laid-off workers but from those whose *hours were cut.* There are many who can't do that.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

One thing I've noticed is that the backlit advertising space up and down the length of each subway car isn't filled - there's plenty of white space.

I don't know if it's because the agency that has the contract to manage the advertising on the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) has been unable to sell the space due to economic reasons or if it's seasonally slow this time of year. I don't recall that much empty advertising space at any time of the year during the last few years though.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

one conversation with my real estate agent, he told me about a guy who has a 700k mortgage, over 300k on his line f credit, and 30k in credit card debt. He has a beautiful house, 3 expensive cars, goes on trips 3 times a year, and lives it up. After oohing and ahhing at the insanity, the stupidity as far as I see it, he said, you'd be surprised how common that is.

I doubt a recovery is going to happen in '09, and I'd be very surprised if it happened in '10.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Amiga2000HD said:


> One thing I've noticed is that the backlit advertising space up and down the length of each subway car isn't filled - there's plenty of white space.
> 
> I don't know if it's because the agency that has the contract to manage the advertising on the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) has been unable to sell the space due to economic reasons or if it's seasonally slow this time of year. I don't recall that much empty advertising space at any time of the year during the last few years though.


interesting note, that's what struck me when I moved back to Toronto in 94. It was really noticeable after leaving TO in 89.

I also remember thinking, 2 dollars?? Holy rate increase...

4 dollars anyone?


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

kps said:


> During a radio interview with the director of the Daily Bread Foodbank she said that there is an increase in demand --not from jobless or laid-off workers but from those whose *hours were cut.* There are many who can't do that.


One company a friend of mine works for has been offering voluntary time off whenever they find themselves overstaffed relative to customer demand, so that staff can go home early unpaid. The voluntary time off was an attempt at cost containment, and my friend's frequently off work early and that's hit his disposable income hard and even made paying the bills difficult some months. Worse, apparently the voluntary time off wasn't reducing costs satisfactorily so 200 people got axed a few weeks ago.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

At least they are trying -

seems the "pain" is global as the bubble suds squeeze out



> U.S. Downturn Dragging World Into Recession
> *Report Says Global Economy Will Shrink for First Time Since 1940s*
> 
> Washington Post Staff Writer
> ...


washingtonpost.com

••••

Friend/client of ours is way underwater and having to sell all the toys and house.....thought the good times would never end.....

oops.....


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Sounds like your friend/client over-extended himself and didn't save for a rainy day. Oops indeed.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Hey but our Canadian Banks are hanging in there better than others.
Here's an interesting article. 

Yay for Canadian conservatism - once mocked, now lauded. :clap:


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

KC4 said:


> Hey but our Canadian Banks are hanging in there better than others.
> Here's an interesting article.
> 
> Yay for Canadian conservatism - once mocked, now lauded. :clap:


Funny enough, mocked by, the conservatives.



MacDoc said:


> At least they are trying -
> 
> seems the "pain" is global as the bubble suds squeeze out
> 
> ...


I know another company doing what I do, down the hall. They last year, hired 20 guys, signed a 5 year lease on a 5000 sq ft space in a prime building and bought untold number of toys. 

You have to be realistic.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

Just thought of another thing I've noticed - the number of stores on Yonge St. in North Toronto (ok, ok, "Midtown" for those of you who've bought into the marketing department BS) between Davisville and Lawrence that have eviction notices on their front doors has spiked sharply over the last 8 months.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

And generally what follows a wave like that is landlords adjusting their rents accordingly to keep their holdings occupied. There's usually something of a lag time between empty storefronts and landlords clueing in that perhaps they've priced themselves a little too steeply for tough times. Perhaps commercial rents don't go down so much as landlords offer other incentives as part of a package deal - parking arrangements, shared costs, etc.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> And generally what follows a wave like that is landlords adjusting their rents accordingly to keep their holdings occupied.


I have often walked that strip (Yonge Street, mid-town) over the past five years and have noticed a regularly high turnover is fairly normal. The ones that are leaving are usually marginal restaurants, and accessory or clothing stores that seem to cater to no particular market.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Yonge St. in particular is bad that way... yeah, turnover is relatively high and has been for decades, especially in the area below Bloor. It's really quite a carnival of a street. Strange shops you'd not find elsewhere. There's this music shop I sometimes pop into that offers cut-rate prices on some nice electric guitars, but the junky, claustro shop is so crammed with equipment and the guitars hung so closely together it just looks like a disaster in the making. It's a wonder every guitar isn't scratched by its too-close neighbour. There's still some dusty old used bookshops hanging in too and I'm amazed they can afford the rent... it's crazy. Yonge St. has long had a fairly high rate of churn.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I'm kind of interested.....who has acres of new vehicles parked in odd spots near them........???

could not resist this hard time Ronald


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Acres of cars on Allen Expressway at Sheppard on the old airfield.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Cross section today: 
1) Went to local butcher who thanked me for my regular business and knocked a couple of dollars off the bill.
2) Went to look for chicken jerky for my dog. Big chain pet food place selling for $10. Normal price at grocery store: $6.50.
3) Decided to look for vitamins nearby. 
a) First store help threw a brand at me, then got on the phone to discuss something with a supplier. Wouldn't answe rmy questions. I left the bottle on the counter and walked out.
b) Second store offered "Vitamins and Bulk Food" on big sign outside. I went in and saw no vitamins. Proprietor told me to go next door. He doesn't sell vitamins???!!!
c) Third store supposed to open at 9:30. At 10:10 nobody there yet.

The butcher gets it. The others aren't hurting I guess.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Macfury said:


> Cross section today:
> ...
> c) Third store supposed to open at 9:30. At 10:10 nobody there yet.
> 
> The butcher gets it. The others aren't hurting I guess.


He's on "Hippy Time". Relax he will emerge from the drug induced stupor and will be happy to serve you at 9:30 "Hippy Time".

HT is not so common anymore as most of the proponents have died from various causes including strangulation.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Could not resist this one










_Toronto homes sales dropped 32 per cent in February, compared with the same month in 2008._

YourHome.ca - Real Estate - Scenes from the real estate recession , A year ago, Toronto real estate was still on fire: A wacky seller's market dominated by bidding wars and rampant speculation. With sales and prices both way down, everyone is bracing


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

back to double posts again......grrrrr....


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yeah, the board is not working right. Many threads show a recent post on the menu page, but you cannot access the post. Was happening all day yesterday too.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I have a copy of the market report. Says 6k houses were sold last feb, 4k this time round. If you read all the real info, I'm surprised you wouldn't have pounced on january. the figures would have made for far, far more dramatic effects. January was almost dead, but feb showed a bit of a rebound.

We know well there is a drop. And there'll continue to be falls. But to put things into perspective, and get away from the sensationalism, once again. 07 and 08 for the most part, were out of control hot markets.

Perhaps try comparing to saner years, and things aren't quite so Orwelian.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It hasn't been "sane" since the mid 90s when income and shelter costs were somewhat aligned.

Wages need come up or housing come down the two medians get into closer alignment, that pressure will ALWAYS be there......just saying someting is "not quite as bad" is a joke.

Shelter costs are hurting families across Canada and one reason 30% of families in the GTA are under the poverty line.

Stuffing three families to a house as happens in neighbourhoods in Brampton and elsewhere is just indicative of how predatory the situation is. 

There should affordable 4 and 6 plexes on every corner on every transit way and that should be a mandated part of the developers permission to build.

••

Canada has a tiny social housing core - 5% compared to 20% in some Scandavian nations. Nothing better could be done than to funnel stimulus money to the co-op and mixed housing sector like St. Lawrence Market - put the death spiral construction sector back to work and get some sanity into shelter costs...



> *"One -in -five Ontario tenant households are still spending more than
> half of their income on housing," *said ONPHA Executive Director, Sharad Kerur.
> "Many of these households are one paycheque away from losing their homes. I am
> really worried that as the economy moves deeper into recession, more and more
> ...


CNW Group | ONTARIO NON-PROFIT HOUSING ASSOCIATION (ONPHA) | Affordable Housing Need Grows in Eastern Ontario

Wellesley Institute | Three strikes and affordable housing in Canada is officially out!


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I think think you're on a different conversation here.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Nope.....it all goes back to lack of prevention/damping of speculation.....and poor control of development.
With the recession the downward pressure is only going to get higher to bring the two medians in alignment.

We were not immune to the subprime mess either - this was just in the Globe...

Canada's dirty subprime secret


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

if you think wages will head up to reach housing levels you're nuts. Wages are going down. That will be made worse when the inflation machine kicks in, and interest rates will skyrocket.

Then, you will see a real freezing of the housing market.

I'm not sure what will result in terms of pricing for the bazillions of gobs of cookie cutters built in suburbia, and the hordes of condos built in every nook and cranny in all parts of the gta.

But I do know, that the downtown resale, and likely some location location location condos, will rebound stronger in 5 to 10 years. It always has, and always will, eventually.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc, you're spouting nonsense here. Public housing just drives governments into a deeper hole--it's not "a firewall against poverty" but just another tax or transfer of wealth. It transfers the risk and liability of property ownership to people who don't live in those homes.

Similarly, just deciding arbitrarily that spending a certain percentage of income on housing is somehow wrong or out of whack is also playing a semantics game. When you can't "afford" something it generally means you don't have the money to pay for something, not that you'd rather spend the money on something else.

Of course, you could be like your favourite role model, Paris, and bankrupt the entire city.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Made me laugh



> The economist John Kenneth Galbraith once said,_ “The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable.”_


from a long article in the NYT



> Has the Economy Hit Bottom Yet?


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/weekinreview/15vikas.html?_r=1

Good rule of thumb from the article



> Barry Ritholtz, a professional investor who writes the popular economics blog The Big Picture, has a simpler, more subjective, approach: Assume a young couple earning two modest incomes is looking to buy a two- or three-bedroom starter home in a middle-income neighborhood in your city. Can they qualify for a mortgage and afford to buy it?
> 
> “If the answer is no, then you are not at a bottom in housing,” said Mr. Ritholtz, who estimates that the decline in national home prices is only half-complete.


at a 50k median family income - I think we know the answer for Canada....more for sale signs...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

> Barry Ritholtz, a professional investor who writes the popular economics blog The Big Picture, has a simpler, more subjective, approach: Assume a young couple earning two modest incomes is looking to buy a two- or three-bedroom starter home in a middle-income neighborhood in your city. Can they qualify for a mortgage and afford to buy it?
> 
> “If the answer is no, then you are not at a bottom in housing,” said Mr. Ritholtz, who estimates that the decline in national home prices is only half-complete.


If the answer is "no," then they are not in the middle-income bracket. Or the area is not really a middle-income area.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> It hasn't been "sane" since the mid 90s when income and shelter costs were somewhat aligned.
> 
> Wages need come up or housing come down the two medians get into closer alignment...


I agree 100% with this part.

According to my crystal ball, prices will continue to fall for a while, then flatten out or even rise slowly in absolute terms, but not in real terms. Eventually we will get back to the point where the average family can afford the average house with historically normal affordability. This would probably mean an average house would go for 2 - 3 times the average income in the area. This probably won't happen overnight - I figure that this whole process will take another 5 - 10 years.

I feel for all the overleveraged young couples who are about to get b!tch slapped by the invisible hand of the market in the meantime tho...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Adam Smith was wrong...

aside from that - I think a little faster - it took 4 years in the early 90s.

If we collectively applied a Nash equilibrium....my my sellers nightmare.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Adam Smith was wrong...


In what way was he wrong? Supply and demand will reach an equilibrium as he said.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Victory gardens redux....



> *Dollars from dirt: Economy spurs home garden boom
> *
> By GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writer Gillian Flaccus, Associated Press Writer – Sun Mar 15, 7:36 pm ET
> 
> ...


Dollars from dirt: Economy spurs home garden boom - Yahoo! News

anyone here planning to up their home grown.....ahem.......fruit and veggies......this year...

The previous tenant had this terraced space obviously was growing some stuff for consumption.....I have such a black thumb tho ....pity the plants.

This might be a positive addition to the whole slow food, local food interest.....given the price of mixed salads in the grocery just now even I might try my hand at butter lettuce etc.

Hungy teen has discovered he likes salads......has a 25 lb weight drop to show for it :clap: His diabetes doc was mighty impressed.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Macfury said:


> In what way was he wrong? Supply and demand will reach an equilibrium as he said.


Of course Smith was wrong. Although no one really realised it until much after he died. How many true liberals are around any more? There are those crazy libertarians in the US, but they don't do much.

Withou Smith, Marx would have never written Das Kapital and the 20th century wouldn't have been nearly as exciting.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

We've experimented with vegetables each year, Always, thyme, sage, lettuce, rosemary, green beans. In some years, corn, potatoes, carrots, broccoli, rhubarb, peppers. Fruit has always failed--pears, apples, grapes. What little we grew was stolen by raccoons.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> Of course Smith was wrong. Although no one really realised it until much after he died. How many true liberals are around any more?


How many people are doing a good job predicting the economy? Smith would have told you the housing bubble was going to burst, while many of Northt America's brilliant were predicting it would go on and on.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Ahhh yes, the raccoons. They like certain things we grow, too... they tend to leave most of the herbs alone, though. But even when it's not growing season the raccoons like to let us know that they're our neighbours too. Couple of them had a fight last night around 3 am, shortly after I'd gone to bed. I could hear them scuffling and making their pleasant battle noises, a few feet right over my head. It's like the Swiss Family Robinson over here. Might as well live in a treehouse.

On a more grounded note, some of the soil in South Riverdale is so tainted with lead it's not wise to grow your own stuff... better to go container and reap the benefits. It's certainly nice to prep a good meal with ingredients fresh from your own garden - the fact that you're not paying for those herbs and veggies at the local greengrocer is a plus.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max: I also enjoy hearing that wickering noise they make before laying into each other. Last year, though, one of them fell through a trellis and landed right on top of my dog. He had it in a death embrace but I feared those hind claws would disembowel him. I had to boot the raccoon out from under him, no mean feat if you saw the way they were going at it.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Apropos to the thread topic, I'll tell you something that I haven't seen but would dearly like to: Bank executives publicly and humbly apologizing for driving the economy off a cliff in their blind gluttonous frenzy of greed. Preferably followed by Seppuku.

The fact that these greed-heads are not only being allowed to run free, but are actually collecting their mulit-million-dollar bonuses is infuriating.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

They can certainly be fierce, MF - and quite dangerous if cornered. Not that I haven't at least _entertained_ from time to time the notion of booting one into the next universe, mind you. I think I'd have to be wearing the right protective clothing before I got all up-close and personal.

Yes, that noise is indeed a whickering noise, isn't it. Weirdest damn thing. I ought to record it one night. Set it to a techno beat and do some smart fusionismic multiculti stuff with it. Call it "Raccoon Ragga" or something like that.

Or maybe not. Alvin and the Chipmunks can't be topped.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Bryanc: it's always tempting to play the blame game but the "greedheads" at the banks still needed doofuses to buy in, didn't they? Come on, spread that dubious glory around, man!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> Apropos to the thread topic, I'll tell you something that I haven't seen but would dearly like to: Bank executives publicly and humbly apologizing for driving the economy off a cliff in their blind gluttonous frenzy of greed. Preferably followed by Seppuku.
> 
> The fact that these greed-heads are not only being allowed to run free, but are actually collecting their mulit-million-dollar bonuses is infuriating.


That will come when the politicians, particularly in the U.S., apologize for the legislation that paved the way for all of this and encouraged it. The best we've seen so far: "I didn't mean to."

Max is right as well: I never bought into that big green easy chair riding a rollercoaster up and up and up....


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Max said:


> Bryanc: it's always tempting to play the blame game but the "greedheads" at the banks still needed doofuses to buy in, didn't they? Come on, spread that dubious glory around, man!


Yeah but pushers are (and should be) punished much more severely than junkies. If only the same were true here as well.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Maybe, screature. But individuals usually have a choice going down the junkie road. Once you've gone down it, it's easier to throw up your hands and claim victim status - or do more junk - than it is to own up to your transgressions.

Not letting the banks off of the hook, mind you - just saying we're talking about a series of interdependencies here, not some black and white morality tale of a bunch of evil suits stiffing the innocent masses.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Oh I agree, but I think you can follow the logic of my analogy as well. Greed is a "drug" in it's own way and those that prey on people's base desires should be held accountable.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Maybe we're more in agreement than anything else. 

But as for significant punishment for the banking system's most egregious transgressors, I don't think it'll happen. Sure, there will a bit of theatre for public consumption - a certain amount of noise and and fussing with smoke and mirrors, but in the end the guys who made off with a lot of dough will have, for the most part, sufficiently insulated themselves from both nasty prosecution and public opprobrium. Money can buy a lot of insulation, provided you socked away enough of it while the looting was good.

The odd guy like Bernie Madoff (and what a massive exception he is!) will take the fall... the rest will slither away under the appropriate sheltering rocks.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

That may get tougher with the Swiss giving up on the secrecy thing.

It might be political capital to hang a few......or more.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

If the Swiss truly get serious about dropping the secrecy thing, expect another country or offshore entity to take up the clarion call. Money's like water... it finds its own level.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well Caymans are cleared out from what I understand - still the Swiss lent way too much prestige to the whole scam.

Like Capone maybe it's the IRS that will be the most effective weapon.....there is a lot of anger worldwide.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

The Swiss did very well with that whole prestige thing... for decades on end. I'm betting someone else will find a way to let people park their ill-gotten gains in a similar discrete fashion. IRS or no... public anger has an uncanny way of dissipating and that disgust, no matter how terrible and pronounced at its peak, runs in slow, lazy cycles.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I think that Israel already is providing that alternative. Pretty sure that's where MadeOff's billions are being kept for his families eventual use.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I noticed this shot taken a few days ago in southern California which speaks volumes about the continued closing of 150 year old plus newspapers in the US in recent weeks:


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Ouch! Great picture. Sad to comprehend what it means. All that vested tradition, rendered obsolete.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

SINC said:


> I noticed this shot taken a few days ago in southern California which speaks volumes about the continued closing of 150 year old plus newspapers in the US in recent weeks:


How sad. Tons of great writers quieted. I feel for them.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I echo your feelings and concerns, gw. How sad. Growing up in New York City, I recall that we had the NY Times, the NY Post and the Daily News in our house each day.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

This has been a long time coming because:
1) People aren't buying newspapers, a major reason why advertisers have left them. 
2) As advertisers depart, the cost of the newspaper skyrockets, since cover price pays only a fraction of the cost of cutting down all those trees.
3) The newspapers are already giving their content away for free online and updating it hourly.
4) Every other major form of media is faster at delivering news: net, radio, TV.
5) Newspapers no longer report news objectively--once their appeal. I can pick up any major daily and see one-sided, coy backhanded reporting that makes it clear exactly what the reporter and the newspaper thinks of the issue.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Max said:


> Maybe we're more in agreement than anything else.
> 
> But as for significant punishment for the banking system's most egregious transgressors, I don't think it'll happen. Sure, there will a bit of theatre for public consumption - a certain amount of noise and and fussing with smoke and mirrors, but in the end the guys who made off with a lot of dough will have, for the most part, sufficiently insulated themselves from both nasty prosecution and public opprobrium. Money can buy a lot of insulation, provided you socked away enough of it while the looting was good.
> 
> The odd guy like Bernie Madoff (and what a massive exception he is!) will take the fall... the rest will slither away under the appropriate sheltering rocks.


I think we are and yes you are no doubt right that "the rest will slither away under the appropriate sheltering rocks."


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

MF, I agree with all of your bullet points re why newspapers are going the way of the dodo, except the last one about objectivity. I don't think a practical attempt at objectivity was ever the day to day mandate of any newspaper, great or small. It's a cherished myth that the public is fond of bringing up from time to time, nothing more.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

I agree, though there are some rather vicious circles.

People gave up on papers because they became too loaded with advertising - thus, the papers needed even more advertising to make money - which drove more people away from the papers.

Some people wanted to read the paper in the morning, so the papers all went off the deep end, becoming morning papers, and thus, have no chance of having any timely news. So people that want timely news are forced to go elsewhere for news. Once most people became accustomed to getting their news elsewhere, the morning papers needed a new strategy - that of providing "in depth coverage". Which failed because with a decline in circulation, especially for the majority of people who actually sleep in the morning until they have to get ready for work, lead to cuts that saw an end to "in depth coverage", and thus, forcing even more people elsewhere.

Some other issues have become real syndromes in the business. The excessive application of "publication bans" spurred on development of alternate news outlets, notably off shore blogs which entirely circumvent the whole ban that shouldn't be in place in the first instance. For example, all citizens of this nation deserved to hear the truths uttered at the Gomery Inquiry, but knowing the truth is strictly verboten, and anyone that wanted to know was entirely dependent on a number of PodCasts published south of the border on a number of Blogs. The newspapers were out of the loop, entirely shackled when it came to presenting the news, and thus, were no longer the font of news for most people.

These days, many papers, like the Toronto Star, simply print out stuff that they happened to find on the Internet - and since most people have access to the Internet - they are redundant. Perhaps the only thing keeping some papers going is the inclusion of TV listings (the TV Guide is long deceased) - but they are even shooting themselves in the foot with this.

People also bought the paper when they were looking for work - but since most companies no longer bother advertising in the newspapers (preferring having their own web sites, or posting on job search engines, or scouting at job fairs) - this has declined precipitously.

Some other papers, like the Toronto Sun, fragged themselves when they eliminated the Page 3 Girls. Sure, they have one stuffed at the back, bot rarely are they as good as the Page 3 Girls of yore. They listened too much to the Judy Rebick Feminazis of the world, and pretty much threw the towel in by putting ugly girls at the back of the paper, rather than hotties at the front. And the Sun really did need to sell papers to the dudes that wanted to Horton before work and check out the goods.

Just like video killed the radio star - the Internet has slayed the papers, and the papers in turn have entirely folded by doing the exact things that drive more and more people to the Internet.

As for Editorial Opinion - they gave up on that long ago, and one can entirely, with 100% perfection, predict what the Editorial of any given paper will spout. Like in Hamilton, everyone knows that the Spectator will support pretty much any candidate that is Fiberal, no matter how many criminal charges or acts of scandal are against that candidate. A Conservative has no chance - they even thrashed honourable people like Lincoln Alexander; and they always have a grudge to grind against the NDP (and they rarely if ever discuss the Green Party at all). One also knows that they will be on the side of any criminal, and have spent a quarter century with their feeble attempt to exonerate the filthy Rollo who butchered his family for his own cheap thrills.

Papers are doomed, especially if they continue being run by glad handling retards that see nothing better than to suckle at the teets of their political masters, and act in collusion with them while avoiding the real injustices that go on in this country.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> MF, I agree with all of your bullet points re why newspapers are going the way of the dodo, except the last one about objectivity. I don't think a practical attempt at objectivity was ever the day to day mandate of any newspaper, great or small. It's a cherished myth that the public is fond of bringing up from time to time, nothing more.


There was never perfect objectivity by any means, and newspapers had obvious slants. But you wouldn't see a reporter referring to a politician's speech as "shrill" or making fun of their clothing, or making some assumption about their palpable discomfort saying one thing or another. That was the work of editorial cartoonists.

In the 1950s, _Toronto Star_ reporters were told not to use the word "miraculous" in referring to the escape of someone from a car accident, because that would imply a miracle had occurred.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
The papers of old were much more skewed than today - and really, would dish out pretty much anything. But then, communities generally had multiple papers. So the Tories read Tory papers - the Grits read Grit papers - Reformers read Reformer papers. But the cost of publishing caused many failures, and it has been more than 50 years since Hamilton has had the Herald, and even longer when Toronto used to have the Globe and the Mail (rather than the Globe & Mail).

Papers regularly shredded up politicians, and when one did, then the opposing paper would shred up an opposing politician in turn. Perhaps it looks bad these days because Parliament has become far more docile since the introduction of cameras, where everyone can watch the proceedings. So now, Question Period is less about roasting each other, and more about preening, looking good and avoiding answering questions.

Now Taiwan, that's the place for real Parliament, since debates are regularly punctuated by boxing matches...


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

MF: well, the 50s were plain weird.

Anyhoo, maybe the old newspapers didn't use words like "shrill' but they also were deadly dull reads. Excising excitable words for the good of the readership? Yikes. How patronizing.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Case study...



> *How I lost my Bay St. job and found true happiness*
> AARON HARRIS/TORONTO STAR
> 
> 
> ...


more - it's a good read and being played out around the world.....

TheStar.com | GTA | How I lost my Bay St. job and found true happiness

_The Star follows the successes and disappointments of five GTA workers as each gamely adapts to new economic circumstances._


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I can't feel too badly for her. She was probably making $250,000/year, stock options and a nice expenses account. She would have had investments and assets. I worry about the people who have been living paycheque to paycheque for some time.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
An insane article - since the woman was axed from Bell! How could life get any worse? I'd rather eat dirt out of gutters for a living than to work for that perverted corporate monstrosity.

And it is juts like The Star to talk about the "misery" of the wealthy, people that scored opulent, gold plated cheques for a "job" that amounts to spending the day loafing around a climate controlled office, drinking out of special water coolers, and being injured because of a slight paper cut.

Why don't they talk about the real misery, people that have lived pay to pay doing real work, perhaps scoring minimum wage or less, work that makes the bones ache, where taking a break to go to the bathroom can get someone fired, and a moment of inattention can lead to death or dismemberment.

One cal talk about "oh, I'd never work such a job" - but for those that have to make ends meet, well, it seems that no one ever thinks about them, or cares one iota about them. So the next time you sit down and eat mushrooms, or an apple - think about the agricultural worker that makes little pay for their labour, people that have no right to unionize, or even to obtain minumum wage.

And the next time you are in your automobile, think about the people that sweat their days and nights in a die casting factory, where they have to make at least a part a minute, perhaps tending four or five machines, all for minimum because if they ask for ten cents more, they are fired.

It was not that long ago when Belinda Stronach turfed 150 workers out of a plant because they refused to take massive pay cuts that would have seen them reduced to poverty - while she was plotting how to waste her $40,000 per week (plus bonuses, gratutities, benefits, discresionary funds, luncheons, steak dinners, etc.) income at Holt-Renfrew so that she should look good when she glad handled her way into the Prime Ministership of the nation.

No wonder why The Star disgusts me, with their pretentions and their utter disconnect from reality.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Did I read correctly that she got canned in mid August, two full months before the October crash and consequent downturn?

and now she's a poster child for what?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

That one is the very definition of the non story.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

SINC and kps I agree. The article was a pedestrian read about someone who really wanted to work with animals. When I saw the article the first time around I couldn't believe it was being touted as a "story of the recession" since no misfortune befell this dull woman at all.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

That article surely deleted a great deal of enlightenment from the pool of people that unfortunately wated time reading it. I'm going to sue The Star - I want my 97 seconds back...


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

jeez lots of pee in the corn flakes this morning it seems.

I didn't see any poor me in article, just a person who discovered the the big vp position wasn't all that it was cracked up to be.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> jeez lots of pee in the corn flakes this morning it seems.
> 
> I didn't see any poor me in article, just a person who discovered the the big vp position wasn't all that it was cracked up to be.


I guess you didn't read this part:

*"The Star follows the successes and disappointments of five GTA workers as each gamely adapts to new economic circumstances."*

It had bugger all to do with current economic circumstances.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

groovetube said:


> jeez lots of pee in the corn flakes this morning it seems.
> 
> *I didn't see any poor me in article, just a person who discovered the the big vp position wasn't all that it was cracked up to be*.


Exactly, and that's why it doesn't belong in this thread.

Enjoy your cornflakes.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Christ on a cracker people are thick.

In a time where people are losing big jobs, an article about someone who found satisfaction elsewhere is relevant. 

It's not all I'm right, no you're wrong conservatives suck no liberals are king. Christ lighten up!


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Easy there groove, watch that blood pressure. lol


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I think that cat avatar suits him to a T.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Meow!


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I wasn't the one getting in a huff about the article not being relevant?

Stories about someone finding happiness is upsetting?

My blood pressure is just fine. You'all need to put aside the pee and corn flakes and likely need some, er, bran or something.

Again, lighten up. The sun is shining.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Meow!


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## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

EvanPitts said:


> I agree, though there are some rather vicious circles.
> 
> People gave up on papers because they became too loaded with advertising - thus, the papers needed even more advertising to make money - which drove more people away from the papers.
> 
> Papers are doomed, especially if they continue being run by glad handling *retards* that see nothing better than to suckle at the teets of their political masters, and act in collusion with them while avoiding the real injustices that go on in this country.


Hey shouldn't you get banned for that particular comment. Eg the 'r' word??

All kidding aside, that was about the most misinformed post I think you have ever concocted and I've read enough of them already to make me wonder. Usually why I just ignore them all.

This business of the Star getting it's content from the internet is about the dumbest thing I think you'e continued to post to date. Just how did you come up with this tidbit of misinformation in the first place?

As for advertising, well duh that's a no brainer. But oddly there are people who may purchase a paper for the ads. Yeah go figure eh, but when I was into audio I would pick up a thursday Sun to read the stereo ads.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Niteshooter said:


> Hey shouldn't you get banned for that particular comment. Eg the 'r' word??


No, it is a valid word in the English language. Only the crackers that make up the "politically correct" would bother spending time attempting to trash an otherwise good word.



> This business of the Star getting it's content from the internet is about the dumbest thing I think you'e continued to post to date. Just how did you come up with this tidbit of misinformation in the first place?


Perhaps if you bothered to actually READ the paper - you would note that many of the bylines are actually pointers to various Internet sites, especially the entertainment section, which is largely culled from TMZ.COM, or the Travel section which is pretty much reprints from Travelocity.com or Expedia.com. And as much of The Spectator is copied from The Star, we get to see all of the Internet reprints in their full glory. Some articles are entirely copped from the Blogosphere - and they need to, considering that they have chopped most of the writers from their staff.

So check the bylines, and you will see that much of the stuff now printed in papers is just regurgitation that one can read for free on the Internet. And I don't know about The Star - but I know that The Spec regularly just prints things directly from the Wikipedia, probably because it is the source most relied upon by the high school co-op students that write the articles these days.



> But oddly there are people who may purchase a paper for the ads. Yeah go figure eh, but when I was into audio I would pick up a thursday Sun to read the stereo ads.


The problem that I pointed out wasn't that there is advertising in the papers - but that the quest for quick profits has filled the papers up with even more ads, pushing out the publication of actual news articles. So then people that want to read the news end up looking elsewhere, circulation declines, so the papers respond by committing even more of the paper to advertising. This in turn forces even more people away, meaning the papers need even more ads to be viable. Of course, they can increase the price of the paper, but guaranteed, that every time the jack the price up, they lose more readers - an entirely vicious circle.

And sure, some people cull the paper for ads - but the papers quite often overcharge for ad space - so retailers end up advertising by other, more effective means, and again, it lets these problems sink even further.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Stories about someone finding happiness is upsetting?


No, not upsetting at all, it was just wrongly advertised. It would be far more insightful if The Star had bothered actually finding someone that was facing the reality of life without a job, rather than someone who overcame their stress once they accepted the fact that they may have to live off of the interest they are scoring on their GICs.

As for leaving Bell - isn't that just automatic happiness these days? If it wasn't for Nortel, Bell would be the worst corporation in Canada...


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

EvanPitts said:


> No, not upsetting at all, it was just wrongly advertised. It would be far more insightful if The Star had bothered actually finding someone that was facing the reality of life without a job, rather than someone who overcame their stress once they accepted the fact that they may have to live off of the interest they are scoring on their GICs.
> 
> As for leaving Bell - isn't that just automatic happiness these days? If it wasn't for Nortel, Bell would be the worst corporation in Canada...


well damn them all to hell for finding someone who worked through losing the big job and finding something more rewarding.

We want blood! Tears! Gnashing of teeth!!!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> well damn them all to hell for finding someone who worked through losing the big job and finding something more rewarding.
> 
> We want blood! Tears! Gnashing of teeth!!!


Round and round he goes.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

didn't mean to spoil the circle er... fun.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Round and round he goes.


Like an endless game of Anchor rigged to lose by the volk over at the OLG.

If The Star was a real paper and wanted to write a real article, they should have showcased people that have real struggles and are facing some real poverty - rather than showcasing someone who may have to cut out one catered soiree per month at their Rosedale spread.

Here in Hamilton some years ago, they actually had a "real" article in The Spec about local poverty, with real stories about people who would like to earn more so that they could attain poverty. Of course, it was a big political embarrassment all around, and it is pretty hard to sell a deal on building a new stadium (for 8 football games per year), when over 56% of people in this city live below the poverty line. And it was no surprise when that Editor was canned after an appropriate length of time, oops, the Editor was sent to explore some new career horizons and maybe get a shot at the Second Career program...


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## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

EvanPitts said:


> No, it is a valid word in the English language. Only the crackers that make up the "politically correct" would bother spending time attempting to trash an otherwise good word.
> 
> Perhaps if you bothered to actually READ the paper - you would note that many of the bylines are actually pointers to various Internet sites, especially the entertainment section, which is largely culled from TMZ.COM, or the Travel section which is pretty much reprints from Travelocity.com or Expedia.com. And as much of The Spectator is copied from The Star, we get to see all of the Internet reprints in their full glory. Some articles are entirely copped from the Blogosphere - and they need to, considering that they have chopped most of the writers from their staff.
> 
> So check the bylines, and you will see that much of the stuff now printed in papers is just regurgitation that one can read for free on the Internet. And I don't know about The Star - but I know that The Spec regularly just prints things directly from the Wikipedia, probably because it is the source most relied upon by the high school co-op students that write the articles these days.


Actually if you happened to read these forums you might have noticed that another ehMac member was banned for using a derivative of that word either yesterday or the day before.

As for reading the Star, that's actually pretty funny since I'm the last guy in editorial to read the pages before they are released to platemaking in Vaughn so in a word NOPE you aren't even close to being correct.

I just went through the entire tuesday paper and checked all the bylines. Hmmm not one byline for the internet.

Of course if you haven't a clue what wire services are, such as Canadian Press, AP and Reuters then perhaps I can understand why you don't understand what you are talking about. But for the rest of the bylines, I seem to notice coworkers names like John and Ashante on the DVD and CD page.

*Hmmm tmz.com? You mean the tmz.com that is owned by Warner Communications and sends the identical press releases out to all media outlets in the form of press kits prior to the release of their films?*

As for travel that's a weekly section and just putting through last weeks I can't say I see any stories that you describe. Not ONE, though I know some of the freelancers who have stories published in that section.

So based on what you say you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> *Job seekers swarming to Atlantic provinces*
> 
> Unemployed drawn to opportunities, quality of life in region hit less hard by slumping economy
> 
> ...


continues

reportonbusiness.com: Job seekers swarming to Atlantic provinces

times change....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Wow - CBC has had profiles on various areas of the US.

California  I guess I can't believe how people get themselves in so deep.....$4k a month for a mortgage for a school teacher....

Poor business guy has to work from his home...gee whiz golly....he should have figured that out a while ago......

Interesting video.....what a mess......the great unwinding....
CBC.ca | The National | Archive | Hard Times Hard Choices | Red, White and the Economic Blues


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Came across this - might be fun for the GTA denizens.

TheStar.com | living | No money? No problem Dine out for under $10

I get the impression the Bank of Canada might be gearing for a harder longer fall than they initially thought.
Any more insights around your area??

We are seeing strong sales as Apple has but I don't think that is reflective of the situation.

I must admit the last couple weeks there seems LESS indication of a recession in terms of traffic and busy places......maybe it's just spring showing up.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm seeing nothing except a few marginal storefronts closing down. Mostly clothing and gift stores that I have a hard time remembering the name of after they're gone: "What was located there again?"


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

The only things proliferating these days is Hamilton are Shoppers Drug Marts (which are showing up everywhere), and all of the sites being handled by Murray Demolition. But the biggest thing happening in Hamilton is rust, because we all know rust doesn't sleep. If there was ever a world market for rust, Hamilton would be extremely wealthy...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

EP, McMaster University is in Hamilton, ON, so that is one bright spot for your city.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yes and a wonderful little nuclear reactor bubbling along merrily since the 50s. 

MNR.MCMASTER.CA


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

bout right....


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> EP, McMaster University is in Hamilton, ON, so that is one bright spot for your city.


You've never been, have you? They are really good at hyping themselves up, but once you get there, it doesn't live up to the hype at all.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

No, EP, I have never been to Hamilton or McMaster University. Still, I have heard good things about both so it can't be all bad.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> No, EP, I have never been to Hamilton or McMaster University. Still, I have heard good things about both so it can't be all bad.


Having lived in Hamilton and having worked at McMaster, it's not what it appears. Hamilton itself, if you subtract the monstrosity of rusting out industry in the north end, and double subtract the ghetto that the downtown has turned into - does have some nice things. Mac looks nice in all of the pictures, because the only pictures are taken in front of Hamilton Hall. The rest of the place looks like an overcrowded architects nightmare.

Mac is good at pretending - like they had all of this hoopla when Brockhouse won the Nobel, even though the only real connection is that Brockhouse stayed for a month one summer in order to calibrate his instruments, and the University had nothing at all to do with his research or achievements. I think they did this because one time at lunch, we were reading the calendar from CalTech, and noticed that at the time, they had 20 Nobel Laureates on staff and actively teaching. And not some obscure nonsense that no one ever uses - but real achievments, like the dude that invented the laser, and so on. I think it gave the profs some kind of envy, so instead of carrying on with those things that Mac was good at, it was all about trashing those things and finding those people who happened by, to calibrate instruments, or to give a lecture, or maybe just to step off the bus to take a poop - that is Mac, looking for any angle to score some hype, then not accomplishing anything with the hype. The only thing that is currently saving Mac is the lack of spaces at real universities, like Brock, Laurier, Waterloo, Western, Guelph, York and the UofT...

It's like the City itself - sure, it's a dump now, but they are all about hyping all of the artists that are going to "change it" and that somehow "high-tech" is going to come in and replace the jobs long lost in the steel industry. Of course, it is FutureHype - that this stuff won't be happening now, or tomorrow, but in the distant future (I guess after everyone migrates elsewhere to find work, and corporates start buying land Detroit style).

And if the University isn't bad enough - our College is going nuts in the same way, because really, it isn't that industry or business don't want college graduates anymore, or that the college courses are so weak and academic standards so low they are worthless, or that the administration undermines the instructors at every turn and lie to students on a continual basis - no, the problem with our College is that the entrance is on the wrong side of the building and there isn't a giant "MOHAWK" sign to create hype. So instead of spending money on actual education (or even spending a few bucks getting shop time for the students) - it's all about wasting it on useless hype, so they can sucker more students into wasting their time and cash on some worthless program, a program where the student will end up with something less than half of what was promised...

So if any of the profs at Memorial have an interest in the decline and fall of civilization - they can save cash by coming to Hamilton to see it happen in real time, rather than fooling around with trying to figure out what the ruins of Rome mean...


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

MacDoc said:


> Yes and a wonderful little nuclear reactor bubbling along merrily since the 50s.
> 
> MNR.MCMASTER.CA


Built when Diefenbaker was running things. They do some little things with the reactor these days, and I think they just make ends meet. But stuff like the Accelerator have long since been shipped off to Argentina. It's nothing exciting or even worthy enough to write home about - I think the University has spent more cash refurbishing the President's Residence and the Faculty Club in recent years.

Much of what is left to be hyped up concerns the Hospital, but even that has been blowing up on them since the University started threatening to close the Emergency department down, leaving those in the west end, west Mountain, Ancaster, Dundas and Flamborough dependent on heading up the highways to Brantford, Cambridge or Guelph for medical treatment. Not that that is so different, since people in the east end and in Stoney Creek get to go to Joe Brant or St. Catharines for medical treatment...


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

One thing is for sure, Sherway Gardens, Sq 1, Vaughan Mills.. they sure seem to have avoided any economic downturn..

Erin Mills has always been average type mall. ( in the words of Robert Ghiz, premier of PEI -there is no downturn, when we never had a up turn ) that pretty much describes erin centre. 

I still find traffic heavy - doing tons of onsite - it seems i never noticed the slow down in traffic.. but i do agree new car sales lots are packed.. seems they prefer the cars over cash


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## Glipt (Aug 7, 2003)

Advertising hasn't slowed down at all compared to last year. Actually up a bit here at the bottom end of advertising, that being local newspaper flyers. Of course all owned by Torstar who are using the 'Recession' as a reason to hack and slash rates. Most of their record loss posted last qt. is writedowns from a $100M+ buy into CTV, $40-$50M in automated flyer assembly machines and of course $8M for the CEO who "Resigned" over the record losses Torstar posted.


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