# No Apple Store for Vaugh Mills?



## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

OK so what follows is just a simple deduction but bear with me, I think it makes sense (at the very least it is, as they say, a "testable" hypothesis).

The Mills corp is a big US retail co that owns and manages large shopping centers south of the border. The specialize primarily in malls that are anchored around big box discount outlets and in general have a very "value oriented" approach to marketing.

They are behind the huge Vaughn Mills center that is going up (very fast) in Woodbridge and aiming to be open for the holiday season. It was originally slated to open in '01 but the economic slow down torpedoed that.

This is also one of the long rumoured locations for the first Canadian Apple retail store (along with Yorkdale and the Eaton Center). It has not figured in the most recent rumours on AI but had been mentioned in the past up here as a possible site.

I don't think there is going to be an Apple Store in the new Vaugh Mills for a couple of reasons. First of all there is not a single Apple retail store in any of their malls in the US (you can see the US retail list for Mills Corp here and the list of Apple retail locations here, there is no overlap - zero - Apple is not a Mills corp client in the US). The second reason relates to the first. Apple stores just don't fit with the retail approach of the typical Mills mall, can you see an Apple Store in the same mall as a Winners? The Apple store is a boutique not a big box discounter. One more reason is that I would have expected by now, with the hundreds of tradespeople traipsing in and out of the VM mall in preparation for its opening next month that something would have leaked out by now of an impending Apple Store opening at that location.

Here's the VM profile article that got me thinking about this.

My guess: no Apple Store in Vaughn Mills, Apple Canada is waiting for the right location in Yorkdale (which very much fits with the typical retail environment that you find an Apple Store in, IMHO).

We'll see on November 4







.

[ October 25, 2004, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: mycatsnameis ]


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

i've said this many times before but i don't think apple has a retail strategy for canada. i don't think apple would put it's first canadian store in a wasteland like vaughan mills - i think the first retail store would be downtown, like at yonge and dundas, although i've always thought a better location would be right across from the much music building on queen st.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

*i've said this many times before but i don't think apple has a retail strategy for canada.* 

They do. 100% gaurantee.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> They do. 100% gaurantee.


i call your bluff. what is it?


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Last time I was at Yorkdale, they were building 40 more stores. Slated for a Spring '05 opening. Based on Apple's pattern in the US, I'd say Yorkdale would be a good spot, IMHO.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Queen Street (CityTV) is a hip area, but it doesn't fit the demographic target customer or traffic.

IMHO, there's no equivalent of New York's SOHO District in Toronto, nor Tokyo's Akihabara (sp?) district.

Yorkdale is very similar to the Walden Galleria in Buffalo. Upscale but balanced retail presence with no discount retailers as anchor tenants (i.e. Target, Walmart).

Apple Canada was hiring a retail marketing manager within a year ago. (I considered applying.)


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

My father is working at Vaughan Mills right now. He took a walk around on Friday and told me there is currently no Apple Store there.

He did say, however, that there are still some empty stores.

I am thinking that downtown Toronto might be a better location.


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

> My father is working at Vaughan Mills right now. He took a walk around on Friday and told me there is currently no Apple Store there.
> 
> He did say, however, that there are still some empty stores.
> 
> I am thinking that downtown Toronto might be a better location.


This makes sense. I figured that if they were going into a brand new mall it would be very very hard to keep the whole thing a secret. You'd have all the general trades going in and out for all the stores and wouldn't be able to hire your own band of "sworn to secrecy" trades to run the whole show (like they might be able to do behind a walled off store front in an established mall).


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

> i've said this many times before but i don't think apple has a retail strategy for canada.
> 
> They do. 100% gaurantee.


Hmmm, maybe ehMax has been snapped up for one of the genius bar positions for Yorkdale or the Eaton Centre.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

Bloor Street (around Bay) would be an ideal location....similar to Chicago's Golden Mile (or whatever). But from what I can see.....there isn't many empty stores ready to be snapped up by Apple.

Dundas Square is also prime stuff for them.

I put my bets on one or the other....I think Yorkdale would be a secondary location to be honest. I couldn't imagine opening a flagship Canadian store way up there......and it really will be the flagship store in Toronto i reckon.


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## highapostle (Apr 21, 2004)

Going by Eaton Centre on a Dundas streetcar for the first time in a while, I noticed that the Dundas parkade has been demolished. Does anyone know if that space is earmarked for an expansion of the mall? If so, that would be a prime location for the store.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

Put me down for Dundas Square as well... seems like a perfect location for an Apple Store.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Dundas Square, that grey, barren block on the south-east corner of Yonge and Dundas, will not be the location of the Apple Store or any other store. It's ostensibly a public space for which you must line up and apply to hold various events... it's also patrolled by security cops so that no one has too much fun. What a joyless space... what a good idea gone horribly wrong.

As for the parkade to the West of the Eaton centre, on Dundas, that looks promising... but presumably you still need a parking lot, even if the whole shopping complex is slated for expansion. But I admit to a certain curiosity about what's going on there...

Which reminds me... even if the Eaton Centre or down my Muchmusic were deemed cool locales for a downtown store, the problem of traffic flow remains a grave one. You have a zillion cars already, plus streetcars and subways... not too easy for Joe Q. Consumer to pull up and load in that big 'ole box containing his new DP G5 tower. There's also a ton of pedestrians, adding to the fun of driving through that particular neck of the woods. It's one thing to hop over and pick up an iPod, even a PB... no, I'd be surprised if we get an Apple store anywhere downtown. Too many people will want to go check out the place in cars. Unfortunately, we're a car-dependent culture. That's why a shopping centre looks more likely to me... and yes, I agree that Apple probably wouldn't want to locate in a massive big box mall... sets up unpleasant associations. The snob factor holds a strong appeal for us Mac folks; after all, we like to think we're different. Apple=Walmart? Not.

(;->))

At any rate, I'd love to see the arrival of an Apple store in the GTA. Bring it on already!

[ October 26, 2004, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Max ]


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## highapostle (Apr 21, 2004)

Wasn't that Dundas parkade replaced by one under Yonge-Dundas square, next to the subway station?


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Enquiring minds need to know, sir  

Across from CityTV would be a cool spot, but Apple goes for the high traffic (Queens Street's got) _high income_ (Queen Street really no got) locales. But... there ARE more upscale fasshion stores along Queen Spadina, now. Or, BIG malls. Eaton Centre, or Yorkdale. Yorkdale is the busiest mall in the country, I believe. No further away from downtown than Yorkdale, however (good subway service there). But Vaughan Mills? It does _feel_ like not quite the right location.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> Queen Street (CityTV) is a hip area, but it doesn't fit the demographic target customer or traffic.


i kind of agree with you that the income level of the traffic on that stretch of queen is not that high, however they are mostly young people many of whom are in school and would buy ibooks or emacs. come to think of it i think this is a good demographic if you consider apples strategy of targeting young people over the last few years (garageband, itunes, ipod, ibook, etc)

also, every time the much vj's go outside the whole country is going to catch a glimpse of that big white apple logo.


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## Zim (Sep 9, 2002)

The corner of Bay and Dundas is going to be the new Business building for Ryerson.

http://www.ryerson.ca/build/business/

Here's what they say they're going to do:

The existing parking garage will be demolished and a new building constructed on that space through to the corner at Bay Street.

and the map here:
http://www.ryerson.ca/build/#BUS

My bet is on Yorkdale for an Apple Store. Just seems the best fit, although Yorkville is a definite possibility as well. Who knows they could do the full store and one of the new minis.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I'm still betting on Yorkdale come next spring. It has EVERYTHING that Apple wants in a retail location. I know, I've been to 2 stores and I know the atmosphere and clientele they are catering to.
Parking IS an issue and there has to be a place where someone can legally stop and load that heavy G5.

Yorkdale also has the ideal location. It's on the south side of the 401 and beside the Allen Expressway. Highway 400 is not very far to the west. In effect, it is easily accessible for almost anyone.

Apple assesses foot traffic and Yorkdale has all the other malls beat in that department. It's the oldest indoor mall in the GTA and still the most visited by locals and tourists alike.


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

> i call your bluff. what is it?


Its business... Apple is one of the world's largest companies and is also VERY VERY profit orientated. They have a plan for Canada. It all takes time..

Canada is a huge market.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Yeah. I've only been to Walden Galleria, and Yorkdale definitely fits the same profile. Even better than Walden, actually, with excellent public transit along with highway 401.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Appleinider.com is reporting that Canada will see Apple Stores in Canada in 2005:



> Canadians seeking a local Apple-branded retail store may have to look no further than Toronto in the coming months.
> 
> Sources tell AppleInsider that Apple Computer is close to inking a deal with realtors that would bring Canada is first Apple retail store, extending the company's retail presence to yet another country.
> 
> ...


Full story and more details here


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Ya know, you get out of the basement for just a bit and you get scooped on good news. I was JUST going to post that Apple Insider article, yer honor  

Very cool bit of rumor -- and I had my bets on Yorkdale


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

That wouldn't be the same AppleInsider that said Apple would open 4 stores in Canada before the end of 2004 would it?


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2002)

The Downtown Eaton Centre seems like the obvious place to me. It's also close to where most of the existing VARs are located. This is really a double edged sword.

The Eaton Centre is the tourist focal point for everyone visiting Toronto. It is a showpiece for every major retailer in Canada.
Yorkdale will attract Torontonians and those from the region, but it won't be an attraction for visitors from outside the GTA, US or overseas. There is far greater potential to reach a wider audience at the Eaton Center. This could translate into more total sales through the Apple online store and the retail store. 

The downside is that this would almost certainly kill many or all of the current VAR's. This would be a very bad thing since the VARs are much better equiped to do after sales service. That's very important for someone who makes their living from their computer. 

Apple has to ensure that the VARs can remain profitable or else they risk losing the professional market. Apple has already lost their advantage in the education market through some shortsighted decisions. I can easily see them making some equally dumb decisions and losing the pro market. 
Let's hope the iPod fad hasn't gone to their heads. Things can still go from boom to bust very quickly

Apple has to figure out how to make their retail presence help their VARs. Right now they are competing with them instead of growing with them. I don't see that this is going to get them anywhere.

[ October 28, 2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Rob ]


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

LOL! As the rumour mills churn...

I hope we see one in the GTA before I'm old and grey... all this tiresome speculation is wearing on me.... Apple Canada often seems to be utterly opaque and uncommunicative... it bows down to the mothership on a regular basis and acts essentially like a dumb terminal. We Canuckoid faithful are reduced to trawling through rumour sites for nuggets of _possible_ developments. It is to laugh.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> Dundas Square, that grey, barren block on the south-east corner of Yonge and Dundas, will not be the location of the Apple Store or any other store


Well, hate to break your heart, but I have an acct that is opening a store there in 2005. So, there will be some retail presence.

I personally will vote for Yordale as well, Makes too much sense. Great location/demo. Much better that Eaton Ctr if you ask me. 

To all who like to refer to Queen West as the coolest spot: you're hella right! Apple should not be out there as they have way better spots to pick from . But there is some $$ out here - for all who don't think. The boutiques here move merch. I know... I deal with several of them. + there are tone of cpu spots @ College + Spadina, so the $$ argument about Queen West is kinda weak if you ask me. Have you seen this area on weekends?? Bananas. Trafiic is nutty.

Someone mentioned Bloor. Next to Lacoste?? I like that idea. But the parking kills that spot - or lack there of. And again, Yorkdale is so much better, as is Eaton Ctr.

H!


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

Hello! Did anyone actually read the article? 



> Speaking to AppleInsider, representatives for the shopping center recently confirmed plans to host an Apple store by mid-2005, but declined to provide any specific information. Related parties also acknowledged that an agreement was pending, but would not comment further, citing non-disclosure agreements.


Wanna bet that Stevie terminates the agreement after reading that?



> Sources have also confirmed that the forthcoming Vaughn Mills Mall--Canada's first regional mall since 1990--will also host Apple as one of its first anchored tenants. The mall, which was previously slated to open in the Fall of 2004, remains under construction just outside of Toronto.


Big surprise there. I guess we'll see for sure in a week and a half. As I stated from the outset, I don't see the Mills Corp crowd appealing to Apple (note that I'm not quibbling with the location per se, just the discount focus of the shopping centre). Yorkdale OTOH has all the hallmarks of an Apple Store containing mall IMO.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

I *assure* you that they will not sneak an Apple Store into Vaughan Mills... it's not there now and the mall opens in just over a week.

I think you have the wrong impression of Vaughan Mills. It's not a Wal-Mart plaza. It's got all sorts of stores catering to people with money to burn.


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

No I understand that it is not a deep discount place. If you go through the links I posted you'll see a pretty typical clientele for a Canadian mall. But they are an American company with a very distinctive approach to marketing their properties (heavy on the value angle of having big box outlets anchoring the malls) and I think it is telling that there is not a single Apple Store in any of their properties. 

I don't see Apple deviating from that pattern for their first Canadian retail launch.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Max, not to worry. The wait is almost over.  

There WILL be a store in Yorkdale soon, mark my words. The TO gang can all get together for the grand opening and PARTY!!!


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Like I said earlier, Yorkdale makes the most sense for all the reasons mentioned by *adagio*, plus it's on the subway line to boot. 

*Rob*, tourist traffic at the Eaton Center would likely not translate into too many sales. Yorkdale's central location along with easy accessable routes and free parking will.










http://www.yorkdale.com/

To all potential Sherlocks: There's a huge construction project going on there. Go forth and put the rumors to rest by spying on the potential apple store location and nagging construction workers for info. 









Project is slated for a spring 2005 opening. Watch for possible job postings on Apple.ca in early 2005.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

When they do open in Toronto, ehMacians will have to take over the lineup and have a little party of sorts, and maybe we can go out for lunch afterwards.







Of course take lots of pictures and video for others who can't make it to see.


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## jlcinc (Dec 13, 2002)

Well this just out... on the appleinsider site.

http://appleinsider.com/article.php?id=722

Yorkdale and Vaughn Mills.

We will wait and see.

John


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> No I understand that it is not a deep discount place


Corrections: there will be some clearance retailers there. Some of the accts that i deal with are opening in VM + the ads have confirmed that - that I recall. 

I think that Apple would be wise to stay out of there. Although I have not seen the mall yet (and I'll be there for the opening), not sure that the discounter enviro is the best fit. But that's just me. Yorkdale all the way - if not Eaton Ctr. 

H!


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

I disagree.

I think Vaughan Mills is the perfect location for an Apple Store...

From the press release on the Vaughan Mills site:



> Specialty retailers that have signed on to date include the first Tommy Bahama Outlet, Town Shoes Outlet and Benetton Outlet in Canada, Nike Factory Store, Tristan & America Outlet, La Vie En Rose Outlet, Aritzia, The Sony Store, HMV, Music World, BCBG Max Azria Outlet, Nine West Shoes Outlet, Build-A-Bear, Buffalo Outlet, Esprit Outlet, Mexx Outlet, Purdy’s Chocolates, American Eagle Outfitters, West 49, Ecco Outlet, Fila Outlet, Aldo Outlet, Jacob Annex, Danier Outlet, Guess Outlet, Femme de Carriere Outlet, Timberland Outlet, Eggspectations, Johnny Rockets, and Fiorio Salon and Spa.


I don't equate outlets with discounters. That myth that outlets are discounters has long been dismissed.

The only Apple Store I have been in is the one in Valley Fair mall in Santa Clara, CA, so perhaps I don't know what I am talking about.

Subconciously, I am hoping it's Vaughan Mills... much closer to home and much less pretentious than Yorkdale.


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2002)

KPS I think you miss my point. Yorkdale would definitely generate a lot of sales in store, but it's just going to cannibalize many of those sales from existing VARs. 

Toronto is already reasonably well served from a Mac perspective. There are already several retailers to choose from to see and try all the latest equipment. Apple makes sure the prices aren't going to vary much (but that's another story).

Frankly, I don't see why anyone in the Toronto area would get too excited about an Apple Store.

I'm based down near Windsor. Apple has absolutely no presence in this area at all. I'm sure that most people down here don't even know that Apple still makes computers. Somehow, Apple needs to reach people from outside the Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal centers, if they hope to expand their business.

Be it Yorkdale, Vaughn, or Eaton Centre, they still need to figure out how to make the market grow. I think they're just going to move sales from the VARs to the Apple Retail Stores. The net benefit will be zero. That doesn't seem like a plan for success to me.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

If an Apple Storeopens in the GTA, I'll be there with bells on!


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

When and if this happens, I will be making the drive down from Windsor..

We will need to have a way for ehmac memebers to identify ourselves,, maybe like "ehmac backstage pass type" things.. We should do something anyways...


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Rob:



> KPS I think you miss my point. Yorkdale would definitely generate a lot of sales in store, but it's just going to cannibalize many of those sales from existing VARs.


Ya think? I think the Apple store will give Apple a new venue to showcase it's product. Most established Mac users will probably remain with their current VAR....at least I would think they would. The Apple store does not hold that great an attraction for me, but it is a sign that Apple is thinking of us up here in the frozen wasteland.

I know it's presumptuous of us to think that the first Apple store will be in Toronto (altho all info points in that direction) and if it is, it's a sign of recognition by Apple that there actually is a Mac market up here. That's why the buzz and excitement. 

I feel for you out there in Windsor not having a Mac reseller, but let's take one Mac store at a time...


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## lindmar (Nov 13, 2003)

Its not bad not having a store in Windsor....

Its just a short drive to the Apple Store in Detroit and also, University of Windsor is now an authorized seller,, lots of 3rd party products in the University Bookstore for anyone to buy!


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2002)

I don't hear any VAR voices on this thread (we know you're out there). Methinks that none of them are jumping for joy that Apple is going to open retail stores up here

If any of them thought that this would help expand the market they would be vociferously supporting it. If it was a well planned and cooperative venture there could be plenty for everyone.

Unfortunately, recent history shows that the greedy little buggers in Cupertino are more interested in getting a bigger chunk of the pie in the easiest markets. They did the same thing in the education market and they blew it big time. The pro market will likely be the next big loser. The Apple retail stores are not equiped to service and support these demanding customers. 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if the VARs can adapt to the new environment. It must not feel too pleasant to be continually screwed by your supplier. I'm sure glad I'm not one of them.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> I don't equate outlets with discounters. That myth that outlets are discounters has long been dismissed.


OK. Outlet=clearance (aka discounts). Do not expect the Nike Store to carry anything close to full retail price. It is likely to be like the (far from exclusively for) employee store in Scaroboro. BTW, the retail clients of mine recently took goods from us @ deep discount (aka clearance) to have in those locations. It is fact that they use these outlets to clear out the stock left over. Just like Orfus rd, HWY 7 + Weston (I think). I bought some click Tuxedo pants for $7 @ the CLub Monaco Outlet. 

Anyhow, I simply don't feel that it's a hot mix. Outlets + Apple retail being neighbors.

H!


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

I think we've beaten the "shopping environment" issue to death. An oriented outlet mall is just not where you find an Apple Store. Nov. 4 will tell us if Apple has changed their mind this time. We have one "insider" posting on the thread telling us it's not going to happen. I'm positive that it would've leaked out by now if it was there.



> When and if this happens, I will be making the drive down from Windsor..
> 
> We will need to have a way for ehmac memebers to identify ourselves,, maybe like "ehmac backstage pass type" things.. We should do something anyways...


Maybe someone can come up with a printable label and we can all be super-geeks and show up with customized name tags with our ehMac handles printed on them (maybe the mayor can rustle up a couple hundred used (taped) horn-rimmed glasses to go along with them





















)


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## carol ching (Jul 12, 2008)

vaughn mills is owned by the company Ontario Mills that owns a bunch of malls quite the same as vaughn .. none of them have apple stores that i know of... chances are .. not gonna happen...Location wise isn't as great.. besides i believe the flagship store is prolly gonna be their biggest focus... after all we have none..


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## carol ching (Jul 12, 2008)

btw i woork at the new banana republic factory store there the first out side of the states.. YAY


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## Chrispy (Jan 17, 2005)

Holy thread resurrection batman...


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

From the original poster 4 years ago to these recent posts, why can nobody spell VAUGHAN properly??


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