# gaming PC or mac pro?



## monster and machine (Aug 22, 2005)

it's just about time for me to indulge my inner geek again and splurge on a system. i have a dualcore 2 GHz powermac that has been MORE than meeting my needs for audio production and has performed flawlessly, but i also want something for gaming. i was just going to get one of the next gen consoles, but then i would also have to buy an HD tv to take advantage of the graphics, and since most if not all of the games i would get are PC games as well, and since because of mods i enjoy PC games more than console games, i figured i might as well buy a computer for gaming. 

i have been looking at some gaming PCs and have discovered that the old adage that macs are more expensive is simply not true anymore. so, either i keep my powermac and buy a PC for games, or i sell my powermac and buy a mac pro. so my question is, will the mac pro and an upgraded graphics card running windows be able to handle the latest games on the highest settings?


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## saxamaphone (May 18, 2004)

put in the x1900xt video card and the mac pro is a very good gamer, but ram is expensive. i dont play the latest games but i have tried quake 4 and doom 3 and they all ran without a hitch on my box (4x2.0GHz, 4GB, X1900XT, AP/BT)


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## Wako (Oct 11, 2006)

Im running an iMac C2D 2.0 17", and I dont regret trading my gaming PC for it. I run BF2 at 35-45FPS, and other games like a charm too. and thats with an X1600. with an x1900XT, im seriously thinking you cant get better on a PC. Wait for Leopard tho!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

one thing to remember is that if u go the dual boot macintel route u will not be able to work and game at the same time

one advantage i found of having a 2nd PC for windows gaming is that i can leave my mac on for emails and support work while i just pause the game

if your mac is doing the job well for u i think u should consider a windoze pc for gaming
you can easily get a used 2 ghz system and upgrade the video card
of course you'll need room for 2 computers, 2nd keyboard/mouse and 2nd monitor, but it would let u work and play at the same time

the reason i am forced to run games via bootcamp is i am in a temporary residence while my home is re-built and there is absolutely NO ROOM for a 2nd pc

i would still have bootcamp on my macbook for supporting my mac and windows clients


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## Darien Red Sox (Oct 24, 2006)

I would get the Mac for gamming. Even though you would need boot camp it whitch may seem like a disadvantage it could be an advantage once you are in Mac OS doing work it is less tempting to start Gamming for a "little wile" and then rember that you have that paper, ext. due tmorow. With boot camp it would be more likely that you would finsh up your work. If you wanted E-Mail to be open you could leve your outher Mac on.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

get an xbox... you can get a VGA cable for it and connect it to any old monitor.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

Or get a PS3 and hook it up to a DVI equipped LCD with a DVI to HDMI cable or adapter. If you already have such a screen, a DVI switch will allow you to switch back and forth. Get a DVI/USB KVM switch and you can use the same keyboard and mouse from your Mac on the PS3 for applications/games that support it. Would make for a nice clutter-free setup.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

But XBox has like over 100 games like Gears of War, NHL 07, Ghost Recon, Call of Duty 2 and 3, the upcoming Halo 3...

Plus it has a pretty cool online community.

And your keyboard and mouse would also work with XBox.

You would need an LCD screen that supports VGA or component input though.  

Otherwise XBox over PS3 anyday.


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## zen.state (Nov 29, 2005)

you're asking this on a mac site.. 

obviously get the mac pro


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## Luc Tremblay (Jul 5, 2005)

zen.state said:


> you're asking this on a mac site..
> 
> obviously get the mac pro



Sartre had a great reflexion about it in a book... "L'existentialisme est un humanisme" if I remeber well.

Basicly, he said that when someone asks for help, you can analyse why he chose to seek YOUR help insted of someone else's help. That gives the "helper" an intervention guideline.

In this case, I guess our fellow member wants to be supported in his choice to buy a new Mac 

Luc


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

I'd also say just go with an xbox 360.


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## sccoaire (Feb 11, 2005)

dona83 said:


> But XBox has like over 100 games like Gears of War, NHL 07, Ghost Recon, Call of Duty 2 and 3, the upcoming Halo 3...
> 
> Plus it has a pretty cool online community.
> 
> ...


Don't know if I should make another thread or not, but here goes: I have a spare 19" LCD now that I have my new iMac. I would like to play my PS2 and XBOX360 on my 19" LCD. I don't know what kind of cable I'm looking for, like, how do I ask for it at the store? I understand that I need a component video (yellow) at one end and VGA or DVI on the other, correct? My LCD has both so it doesn't matter which one... unless DVI would be better for gaming?


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## phuviano (Sep 14, 2005)

dona83 said:


> get an xbox... you can get a VGA cable for it and connect it to any old monitor.


Ditto on that. Hook up an xbox 360 to a monitor.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

You can get an Xbox360 (core) and a Wii (if you can find one) for the price of one PS3.


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

And if you get the xbox 360 be sure to give us your gamertag!!


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

MACinist said:


> You can get an Xbox (core) and a Wii (if you can find one) for the price of one PS3.


XBox 360 Core is a complete rip-off. Add the hard drive option and just 1 year of XBox Live Gold online play and you're spending more than for a PS3 20GB, and you still don't have wireless controllers, an HD movie player, HDMI port or Gigabit ethernet, and it'll cost you another $60 per year to keep playing online!

Lets do the math people:

*PS3 20GB model: $550*
Includes 20GB hard drive, Blu-Ray drive, Gigabit ethernet, wireless controller, no games, FREE ONLINE PLAY.
Add: 2nd wireless controller: $60
Add: 2 games: $130
*Total cost after 5 years: $740+tax
*
*PS3 60GB model: $660
*Includes 60GB hard drive, Blu-Ray drive, Gigabit ethernet, wireless controller, 802.11g wi-fi and standard memory card readers (SD, CompactFlash & MSPD), no games, FREE ONLINE PLAY.
Add: 2nd wireless controller: $60
Add: 2 games: $130
*Total cost after 5 years: $850+tax
*
*XBox 360 Core: $400
*Includes 2 games.
Add: 20GB hard drive: $130
Add: 2 x wireless controllers: $120
Add: 2 x Rechargeable Battery Packs: $30
Add: 2 x Play & Charge kit: $40
Add: 5 years of XBox Live Gold (for online play): $300
Add: HD-DVD add-on: $200
*Total cost after 5 years: $1220+tax
*
*XBox 360 Pro: $500
*Includes GRAW and Arcade, 20GB HD, wireless controller.
Add: 2nd wireless controller: $60
Add: 2 x Rechargeable Battery Packs: $30
Add: 2 x Play & Charge kit: $40
Add: 5 years of XBox Live Gold (for online play): $300
Add: Wi-fi option: $130
Add: HD-DVD add-on: $200
*Total cost after 5 years: $1260+tax
*
In the above examples, you get to pick whichever games you want for the PS3, whereas you're stuck with the games that come bundled with the XBox 360, regardless if you like them or not.

Even if you leave out XBox 360 accessories like the Wi-Fi option and HD-DVD drive, it'll still cost you far more to own and use an XBox 360 (either model) than the top end PS3, which still has features you can't even get on the 360 like gigabit ethernet, bluetooth, HDMI, etc.

Don't believe all the BS people, the XBox 360 is only cheaper because it comes with far less and Microsoft will make it all back and more from you with all the add-ons and annual online play tax.

If you prefer the XBox 360 because of it's looks, or the selection of games, or you just think it's more fun, fine, but stop spreading lies that it's cheaper, because it isn't, not by a long shot.

I'd expect Windows users to fall for the Microsoft pricing smoke and mirrors FUD, but as Mac users, we should all know that you get what you pay for with Microsoft products. What looks like a lower up-front cost, always ends up costing you far more in the long run.


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

One thing in your total cost after 5 years, I doubt anyone will buy only 2 games in 5 years  . I agree that you do get more bang for your buck with the PS3, but I won't buy it until there are more games available. I'll buy PS3 when MGS4 comes out, but for now I think Gears of war is the best game available for a console.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

Mrsam said:


> One thing in your total cost after 5 years, I doubt anyone will buy only 2 games in 5 years  . I agree that you do get more bang for your buck with the PS3, but I won't buy it until there are more games available. I'll buy PS3 when MGS4 comes out, but for now I think Gears of war is the best game available for a console.


Yeah, I left out additional games because I figured they'd be about the same price, and how many games someone buys varies from person to person. The point was to demonstrate the basic cost of the system with similar options and the ability to play online, which most people will do since most games are geared towards some great online experiences.


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

Gotcha, on a sidenote has anyone actually tried PS3 online yet? I'm curious to see how it is.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

Mrsam said:


> Gotcha, on a sidenote has anyone actually tried PS3 online yet? I'm curious to see how it is.


I have, though not a lot. I can't compare it to XBox live, since I don't have a 360 and don't know anyone that does. It's very good from a performance and ease of use standpoint. I played COD3 and RFOM with a crapload of people and I don't think I experienced lag even once. Very smooth, even with lots of players. With Need For Speed Carbon, I noticed a tiny bit of lag which manifested itself in opponents cars shifting slightly, but not enough or often enough to interfere with gameplay at all. It didn't happen too much.

The one thing I will say as a Mac online gamer, without a keyboard, there isn't a lot of communication going on, unless people have headsets. Even with headsets (I got a bluetooth headset to game with), people don't talk too much. I could see it being more useful if you are playing with people you know to coordinate tactics, but I miss the chats and banter that you'd get in a game like Ghost Recon or Rainbow Six 3 on the computer. But it is early, and I suspect not too many people have headsets, plus there aren't a lot of people online yet with PS3 since it's only been out a month and a half and supplies have been short. Like anything, I'm sure it'll improve as more experienced players start showing up online.

As for stuff like buddies and ranking, the PS3 allows you to see a list of people you've met online and add them to your buddy list or block list. You can send messages to other players as well and you have an inbox where you can see messages that others have sent you. Ranking is handled by individual games though and not system-wide. The games that utilize this feature usually have a website where you can track your rank compared to other gamers.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

madgunde:

1) wasn't comparing the value, I was simply saying that you could have TWO platforms instead of one for nearly the same price. 

2) Current Prices at BB:
499.00 for 360 Premium version and 2 games, 1month live subsricption, wirelss controller, headset, 20gb HDD 

The point is mute to MAC users' like us but for the majority of Windows PC users' that have Windows XP Media Centre, the 360 is a full fledge Media extender. Hook it up to any TV and you can stream media all media from your PC and watch/record television. 

549.99 PS3 (20gb), no games. Let's add 2 more games ($60 ea), well now you are looking at 679.99. Let's forget that there is no HD cables included (component/HDMI) and let's forget that there is no headset either for online play. 

Look at that! a 179 dollar difference. If you took the core, even bigger difference. I agree on one thing, the 360 core without a harddrive is useless. 

3) You cannot compare Xbox live to PS3 online interface with a straight face. If you never tried Live, then all i can say is that it revolutionized online gameplay. 

4) I sure have no care for PS3's BluRay nor 360's HD-DVD as I am in no rush to replacing my DVD collection with movies that cost 3x more and a ongoing battle of formats. 

Disclaimer: had a 360 (sold it), bought a PS3 (wish I didn't), want a Wii. 360 is too loud, PS3 is too big and no games. Both clog my arteries with lack of physical activity.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

madgunde said:


> Don't believe all the BS people, the XBox 360 is only cheaper because it comes with far less and Microsoft will make it all back and more from you with all the add-ons and annual online play tax.


This is not a comparison of VALUE! I was pointing out the OUT OF BOX ability to play on a platform! It's like comparing a MacMini to an iMAC! MacMini is the cheapest way of having a new MAC but the iMAC is the better value. Read the thread before you go on a fanboy rant.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

monster and machine said:


> i have been looking at some gaming PCs and have discovered that the old adage that macs are more expensive is simply not true anymore. so, either i keep my powermac and buy a PC for games, or i sell my powermac and buy a mac pro. so my question is, will the mac pro and an upgraded graphics card running windows be able to handle the latest games on the highest settings?


Personally, I would wait until next month and pick up a PC tower with Windows Vista and either a GeForce8 Series card or at the very least, a PCI-E slot and a 450 watt power supply.

If you are buying for the longterm, even the mediumterm, having a set up that will run DirectX 10 would be my recommendation. Currently, only the GeForce 8 Series cards can run that technology, no other card on the market can and it is a hardware requirement meaning you can't upgrade a card to DirectX 10.

The first optional uses of DX10 are due out in 2007 and are expected to add some nice bells and whistles...the kind of thing someone wanting to run the latest games on the highest settings would be looking for.

Required DX10 gaming probably won't start to happen until sometime in 2008.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

MACinist said:


> 1) wasn't comparing the value, I was simply saying that you could have TWO platforms instead of one for nearly the same price.


It's not a very useful point to make, when the point of the topic is to offer advice about which way "monster and machine" should go. My post was intended to demonstrate why your thinking wasn't very good advice and paint a more realistic picture of what the systems cost.



MACinist said:


> 2) Current Prices at BB:
> 499.00 for 360 Premium version and 2 games, 1month live subsricption, wirelss controller, headset, 20gb HDD


That's pretty much what I wrote, only I forgot about the headset, so add another $50 to the PS3 60GB model, it still doesn't change the fact that the PS3 is less expensive over time.



MACinist said:


> The point is mute to MAC users' like us but for the majority of Windows PC users' that have Windows XP Media Centre, the 360 is a full fledge Media extender. Hook it up to any TV and you can stream media all media from your PC and watch/record television.


I'm sorry, but the majority of Windows users DON'T have Windows XP Media Centre. I'm not even sure why you brought it up, but I'm sure just as many people will be interested in installing Linux on the PS3 as there are people who have a Windows XP Media Centre PC and are looking to get a 360 for it's media centre extending capabilities.



MACinist said:


> 549.99 PS3 (20gb), no games. Let's add 2 more games ($60 ea), well now you are looking at 679.99. Let's forget that there is no HD cables included (component/HDMI) and let's forget that there is no headset either for online play.
> 
> Look at that! a 179 dollar difference. If you took the core, even bigger difference. I agree on one thing, the 360 core without a harddrive is useless.


If you read my post again, you'll notice I added 2 games to both PS3 configurations to account for the games that are bundled with the 360. I even made a comment about how with the PS3, you get to choose your games. As for the cables, add another $30 for component or HDMI cable, the PS3 is still cheaper. The only way the 360 will be cheaper is if you don't play online, which really limits the capabilities of both systems.



MACinist said:


> 3) You cannot compare Xbox live to PS3 online interface with a straight face. If you never tried Live, then all i can say is that it revolutionized online gameplay.


This will depend on what you expect or want from online play I suppose, and I'm not arguing that, but you're paying $60/year to play on XBox Live. How many people buy a 360 not realizing they have to pay extra? No 360 fanboy ever seems to mention that when promoting the 360. It's an important detail that should be pointed out to any prospective buyer, expecially if you're going to make statements about the price of the two competitors. Wii's online play is free too, so why does Microsoft charge for Live?



MACinist said:


> 4) I sure have no care for PS3's BluRay nor 360's HD-DVD as I am in no rush to replacing my DVD collection with movies that cost 3x more and a ongoing battle of formats.


As I already pointed out, even if you remove the HD-DVD drive from the equation, the PS3 is still cheaper over time.



MACinist said:


> Disclaimer: had a 360 (sold it), bought a PS3 (wish I didn't), want a Wii. 360 is too loud, PS3 is too big and no games. Both clog my arteries with lack of physical activity.


I agree that in six months, when the PS3 has a bunch more games, it'll be a much better proposition, but it's off to a good start, and in 6 months, this will be a moot point. As for size, the PS3 is smaller than the XBox 360 with it's external AC power cinder block. What is "too big" anyway? It fits perfectly on any AV console shelf and is completely contained with it's internal power supply, so it's more convenient to move around than the 360. Sure, it's no Wii, but c'mon, comparing the Wii to the PS3 is like comparing a Mac mini to a Mac Pro. The PS3 is far more powerful and upgradeable than the Wii, so it's size has to reflect that. Unless you're installing your console in a car, or an 8 year old kid trying to move it around, I don't think size is much of an issue with the PS3.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

MACinist said:


> This is not a comparison of VALUE! I was pointing out the OUT OF BOX ability to play on a platform! It's like comparing a MacMini to an iMAC! MacMini is the cheapest way of having a new MAC but the iMAC is the better value. Read the thread before you go on a fanboy rant.


I don't think you are in a position to be telling me to read the thread or calling me a fanboy. I've presented nothing but accurate unbiased information, whereas you're the one posting the misleading fanboy price comparisons.

If someone who was buying a new computer for the first time asked you to help them choose a new computer, would you make statements like "you can buy a Mac mini and a cheap PC tower for the price of the iMac"? I hope not. I hope you'd educate them to the fact that they would have to add a monitor, keyboard and mouse to the mini first to get an accurate price comparison. You might also mention the fact that the iMac has an iSight, which will cost extra on the Mac mini. You would also point out some of the other differences between the two, like the iMac's bigger hard drive, better video card and faster processor. I hope you'll agree that to do otherwise would be doing the person a disservice. So why do you feel it's good advice to make a price comparison between the 360 and the PS3 without doing the same? Furthermore, why would you chastise someone who does take the time to provide all the details?

The fact is, if you scour the 'net, every 360 fanboy is spreading the same fertilizer about the 360 being cheaper, and not wanting a Blu-Ray drive, yet none of them will be up front about all the additional costs they will have to incur to get the full use of the system. The reality for most players is they can get a PS3 with a Blu-Ray drive and it will cost them less money to own and use than a 360, and at the end of the day, you'll have a next generation Blu-Ray drive, even if you don't want to watch Blu-Ray movies.

I have no problem with people expressing their opinions about which system they think is better (ie: XBox Live vs. PS3 online), but please at least be honest about what the systems cost. If you think the 360 is a better system, then you should have no problems justifying the higher cost of ownership rather than trying to delude potential buyers into thinking buying a 360 will be cheaper.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

If you want an accurate comparison of console cost, you should do your homework. You can get the XBox 360 premium bundle for $399 - the best deal for an xBox has been $397 at Shoppers during their 20x Points Day, which would have given you $150 in Shoppers Drug Mart points. One year xBox Live Gold? $40 on eBay. At this point, anyone who pays full retail for anything xBox 360 is throwing away money. I'm not a PS3 hater, but you can get deals for xBox 360 that skew the price comparison significantly.

Oh yeah, and there are games you can play NOW on the xBox 360. Gears of War looks and plays way, way better than Resistance, currently the highest rated game of PS3. 

However, a more relevant comparison may be to the second gen X360 - see http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/05/the-second-xbox-360-revealed-codename-zephyr/


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

man, now i know how those "should i buy a mac now?" people feel

when i get the hdtv, i'll need to solve my gaming platform issue


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

milhaus said:


> If you want an accurate comparison of console cost, you should do your homework.


I'm comparing straight retail to retail prices, which I think is fair. You're always going to be able to find some deals, and that applies to the PS3 just the same.

As for the XBox 360 v2, sucks to be an early adopter. Who knows when this thing is going to be released? It hasn't been announced, so could be next month, 6 months from now, Christmas 2007. The PS3 has HDMI now, and you can upgrade the hard drive any time you want with any standard inexpensive S-ATA 2.5" drives if and when you want/need to.


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

milhaus said:


> However, a more relevant comparison may be to the second gen X360 - see http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/05/the-second-xbox-360-revealed-codename-zephyr/


Ok now I'm pissed....


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

madgunde said:


> I'm comparing straight retail to retail prices, which I think is fair. You're always going to be able to find some deals, and that applies to the PS3 just the same.


Let's see a "deal" on the PS3 then . . . If you want to wait a few months, maybe, but by then, the X360 will be cheaper as well.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

madgunde said:


> I'm sorry, but the majority of Windows users DON'T have Windows XP Media Centre. I'm not even sure why you brought it up, but I'm sure just as many people will be interested in installing Linux on the PS3 as there are people who have a Windows XP Media Centre PC and are looking to get a 360 for it's media centre extending capabilities.


This response alone makes you officially a lost cause. Nevermind the rest of your "truthiness". Happy New Year!


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

milhaus said:


> Let's see a "deal" on the PS3 then . . . If you want to wait a few months, maybe, but by then, the X360 will be cheaper as well.


Well that's the thing, and I'm happy to admit it. The XBox 360 has been out longer, so you have the benefits associated with it being over a year old. The PS3 is newer technology and has only just been released, so it'll take a year to get to where the 360 is in terms of availability, and discounting, but you get more state of the art hardware. But at the end of the day, even with discount pricing, the 360 is at best, just as expensive as the PS3, but not any cheaper. Plus, now that we know a new XBox 360 is coming out, potential buyers are going to have to make a choice to either wait for it for god knows how long, or buy the existing one knowing full well it could be replaced any week now. Not a great position to be in.

As far as I'm concerned, both systems have their own merits and people need to decide what's more important to them. If you already have a 360, there is no real reason to run out and buy a PS3, but if you don't, there's a good opportunity to buy a more current product with higher end specs that will cost you a bit more up front, but probably save you money in the long run. Plus, if you're a computer hobbyist, you'll have a spare box you can fiddle with Linux on at no extra cost. If all your friends have 360's and you want to play with them online, then get a 360. If they've got or are getting PS3's, then get a PS3. There is no right answer for everyone.

For me it was the PS3 because I prefer the looks, design philosophy, higher specs and the free online play. I also liked that it has an HDMI port, which my TV has. I also have a PSP, so synergy with that is a bonus (ie: downloading PS1 games for the PSP). I know there will be killer titles for both, so I'm not worried. The 360 feels a tad out of date with it's slower ethernet, lack of bluetooth, smaller hard drive, lack of built-in Wi-Fi, tray loading drive and lack of next gen optical drive.

I was also turned off by what I perceive to be a nickel and diming strategy, having to pay extra for things like rechargeable controller batteries and charging cables which are included with the PS3 as standard. The PS3 just felt more like Mac hardware in terms of including lots of the latest industry standard features. The 360 reminded me of a cheap PC that doesn't have a lot of the cool features that Macs do, but you can always add on at an extra cost (but it won't be as nice). When I did the math, it just made far more sense to me to spend the money on the PS3.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

MACinist said:


> This response alone makes you officially a lost cause. Nevermind the rest of your "truthiness". Happy New Year!


I'm not sure exactly how I'm supposed to take that remark. Seems to me you just don't have a good response. If you feel my statement is inaccurate, then feel free to debunk it with a link some data which supports your position.

I've found this article which says this:


> "Today's shipment levels of PCs that serve as digital hubs in living room entertainment systems remain too low to be a factor in the overall consumer PC market. However, shipments of media center-equipped PCs are increasing at a phenomenal rate," says David Daoud, research manager, IDC's Personal Computing and PC Tracker Programs. "The proliferation of broadband in households worldwide is driving increased use of the Internet for media applications, including audio and video playback and downloading in a multitude of formats and quality levels. As a result, IDC finds that PCs are increasingly used as entertainment devices that complement the traditional living room entertainment system, not replace it."


That seems to support my point that currently, there isn't a huge market for the MCE feature of the XBox 360. If you got it, great, if you don't, then it's a completely useless feature. You can however install Linux on the PS3 and use it for pretty much the same thing, only with no need for a Windows Media Center PC.

If you have an intelligent rebuttal, I'm open to hearing it. If not, then Happy New Year to you too.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: the extra added value of the Xbox 360 being used as a media extender*

You say: "I'm sorry, but the majority of Windows users DON'T have Windows XP Media Centre."

Then YOU provide an article to support your point that says : "Today's shipment levels of PCs that serve as digital hubs in living room entertainment systems remain too low to be a factor in the overall consumer PC market. However, shipments of media center-equipped PCs are increasing at a phenomenal rate,". 

So MCE PC's that are placed in your living room to replace you DVD/PVR/AUDIO is low BUT PC's sold as actual computers are shipping with XP MCE at a "phenomenal rate". That would probably lead me to believe, that there are a "phenomenal" amount of people that are buying PC's with XP MCE. An average gamer or even OSX/Windows platform user with no knowldege of Linux will never even consider hacking a PS3 to install Linux (a foreign operating system to them), risk voiding warranty on their new $700 console and then using Linux as a Media Centre (because we all know that Linux is knows for it's slick Media Centre capabilities). Where you have a 360, and maybe you were one of the "phenomenal" people that bought an MCE pc, plug in the 360, hook up wifi and you have a instant out of the box extender with a simple clean interface that you may be familiar with as it looks very similar to the one on your computer that you use everyday. And let's forget, most consumer versions of Vista will have Media Centre capabilities built in. Apple surely thinks that making a media extender (iTV) is a worthy market to tap and so do the many mac user's that can't wait for it's release. 

Honestly, I don't want to trash this thread anymore with PS3 value vs 360 value anymore. You can have your last word but my last comment (repeat of my first) will be to MONSTERANDMACHINE, "You can get an Xbox360 (core) and a Wii (if you can find one) for the price of one PS3." (no value comparison intended - just off current retail and promo prices available in the market today).


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

M&M, you're going to have final say in this obviously. You might need a separate screen in the end because you might want to be able to use your computer at the same time as when you're playing a game, either via PIP or a second display. If that's the case then have your pick, PC, Xbox 360, PS3, or Wii. If you just want to use your existing equipment, PC and PS3 is probably your best bet. I think PC is a dying gaming platform and the cost of getting a gaming PC is pricey -- $1500+ for a mid-range gamer, $2500+ for a high end gamer, so in the end you're better off getting a console. I love my XBox 360 and would love new people I know to play against (MY GAMERTAG IS dona83 ADD ME!) but the PS3 is cutting edge, seems to have smoother graphics, and the game library will eventually grow. Your choice man. Cheers.


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## silentsim (Apr 15, 2006)

I have all 3 Next-gen consoles (PS3 hooked up HDMI, 360 Component, Wii Component)

Wii is a great system when friends are around..
360 is my fav of the high technology consoles. Games have a steadier framerate as of now. My ps3 controller is demonic(it is a known problem) at times it will just freak out in a game, causing major screwups.
PS3 online is exactly what you pay for(you pay nothing, it sucks).

Xbox live is incredible, well worth the 50$ a year.

360 is my fav console, and i play console games instead of PC gaming as i was tired of the "upgrading" scheme.

Also, a MCE pc is not needed for everything on the 360. A program called Connect360(had to pay a bit for it) Allows streaming movies, pics, and audio(this is a mac program). It is awsome. I also believe that you can do all that on Windows now over software like the Zune software.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

MACinist said:


> So MCE PC's that are placed in your living room to replace you DVD/PVR/AUDIO is low BUT PC's sold as actual computers are shipping with XP MCE at a "phenomenal rate". That would probably lead me to believe, that there are a "phenomenal" amount of people that are buying PC's with XP MCE.


The article says shipments of MCE PC's are INCREASING at a phenomenal rate, not that they have shipped at a phenomenal rate. That indicates that the number is growing, but makes no indication of how many are actually out there. If there were 0.01% last year, and 0.1% this year, that would be phenomenal growth, but very insignificant total number. Also, you misunderstood the quote. It wasn't distinguishing between 'regular PCs' shipped with MCE and PCs used in the living room. Read the whole article and you'll realize that. They are saying that right now, media center type PCs are not a factor in the overall consumer PC market PERIOD, but they are increasing significantly, so it will most likely be a factor in the future.



MACinist said:


> An average gamer or even OSX/Windows platform user with no knowldege of Linux will never even consider hacking a PS3 to install Linux (a foreign operating system to them), risk voiding warranty on their new $700 console and then using Linux as a Media Centre (because we all know that Linux is knows for it's slick Media Centre capabilities).


YellowDog Linux from Terrasoft Solutions is an authorized Sony OS developer. They have Sony's blessings and support in developing YellowDog for PS3. There is even an "Install other OS" menu option in the PS3 menu which is specifically there to facilitate this. No hacking required and it doesn't void your warranty. The install process is quite straightforward with step by step instructions. You partition the HD with the PS3's utility, transfer a file you downloaded using the PS3 utility from a USB memory key or USB hard disk, then pop in the install DVD which you downloaded and burned and install with a step by step gui. Once it's done, you have a full Linux installation, with a whole host of useful apps and a clean GUI interface. Anyone technically inclined enough to know how to set up and use Windows MCE can do it.



MACinist said:


> Honestly, I don't want to trash this thread anymore with PS3 value vs 360 value anymore. You can have your last word but my last comment (repeat of my first) will be to MONSTERANDMACHINE, "You can get an Xbox360 (core) and a Wii (if you can find one) for the price of one PS3." (no value comparison intended - just off current retail and promo prices available in the market today).


I might as well throw in my own price comparisons:

You can get a Wii for less money than 5 years of XBox Live Gold.
You can also get a PS3 20GB system for less money than 10 years of XBox Live Gold.
You can get a PS3 60GB system for less money than the total cost of just the following XBox 360 accessories which you would have to add to the XBox 360 Core system to get it at least CLOSE to what you get with the PS3 60GB model:
HD-DVD drive ($200)
20GB hard drive ($130)
Wireless Networking kit ($130)
Wireless controller ($60)
Rechargeable battery for wireless controller ($15)
Play & Charge kit for wireless controller ($20)
2 years of XBox Live Gold ($120)
So with the PS3 60GB model, it's like Sony is throwing in the base console FOR FREE! 
monster and machine, I'm confident you have enough information to help you make an informed decision between the two consoles.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Well then call me a sucker for thinking that XBox Live is worth $59.99 per year. I also think .Mac is worth $119.99 per year, though I'd be hesitant to pay the full $139.99 price. You have to try XBox Live to believe it for yourself, it's just easy.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

dona83 said:


> Well then call me a sucker for thinking that XBox Live is worth $59.99 per year. I also think .Mac is worth $119.99 per year, though I'd be hesitant to pay the full $139.99 price. You have to try XBox Live to believe it for yourself, it's just easy.


Please note that my previous post was in no way intended to suggest XBox Live isn't worth $59.99+tax per year. I was simply a price comparison, NOT a value comparison. 

By the way, online play on the PS3 is very easy too. I don't know why anyone might think it wasn't. You just choose multiplayer in your game, and you're automatically connected to a game based on your criteria (match type, # players, etc.). Also, one benefit of the PS3 method is there's less potential for lag because most games work point to point, rather than having to rely on one service for all games being played. It also gives the game developers more flexibility in deciding how they want to implement online play. Of course, the downside is that there's nothing stopping a developer from doing a poor job. On the 360, Microsoft probably plays a much more integral role in deciding how things are done, which could mean that if they have problems with their service, all games are going to suffer. PS3 online games would be much less susceptible to this kind of problem.


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## silentsim (Apr 15, 2006)

madgunde said:


> The article says shipments of MCE PC's are INCREASING at a phenomenal rate, not that they have shipped at a phenomenal rate. That indicates that the number is growing, but makes no indication of how many are actually out there. If there were 0.01% last year, and 0.1% this year, that would be phenomenal growth, but very insignificant total number. Also, you misunderstood the quote. It wasn't distinguishing between 'regular PCs' shipped with MCE and PCs used in the living room. Read the whole article and you'll realize that. They are saying that right now, media center type PCs are not a factor in the overall consumer PC market PERIOD, but they are increasing significantly, so it will most likely be a factor in the future.
> 
> 
> YellowDog Linux from Terrasoft Solutions is an authorized Sony OS developer. They have Sony's blessings and support in developing YellowDog for PS3. There is even an "Install other OS" menu option in the PS3 menu which is specifically there to facilitate this. No hacking required and it doesn't void your warranty. The install process is quite straightforward with step by step instructions. You partition the HD with the PS3's utility, transfer a file you downloaded using the PS3 utility from a USB memory key or USB hard disk, then pop in the install DVD which you downloaded and burned and install with a step by step gui. Once it's done, you have a full Linux installation, with a whole host of useful apps and a clean GUI interface. Anyone technically inclined enough to know how to set up and use Windows MCE can do it.
> ...


I think that pricing structure you showed was unfair. Because you'd compare a premium 360(499.99, which comes with wireless controller, and HD, and play and charge kit at 20$ includes a battery...). The xbox live is not necessary.. you get what you pay for though, and yes hD-Dvd at 200 but thats another debate(Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD). I have both..i like both. Also, with a PS3, you are forced to buy the HD cable(either Component or HDMI, im a sucker so i bought MONSTER Hdmi..)


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

Did anyone else read the New york times article on the PS3? After reading that I'll be staying clear of that for at LEAST a year.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

silentsim said:


> I think that pricing structure you showed was unfair. Because you'd compare a premium 360(499.99, which comes with wireless controller, and HD, and play and charge kit at 20$ includes a battery...). The xbox live is not necessary.. you get what you pay for though, and yes hD-Dvd at 200 but thats another debate(Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD). I have both..i like both. Also, with a PS3, you are forced to buy the HD cable(either Component or HDMI, im a sucker so i bought MONSTER Hdmi..)


Hi silentsim,

Sorry, my mistake about the Play & Charge Kit, I thought it was just the cable. Darn Future Shop poorly documented product page!  The battery only costs $15, so I think if you add it up, the price will them come out to be the same. Still a very good comparison, IMHO.

I would agree that it's not a really fair comparison, I posted it in response to MACinist's statement of "you can get a Wii and 360 CORE for the price of a PS3" to prove how silly it is to make statements such as that. In my opinion, nobody would buy a Core system without buying at least a few of the accessories (like the Hard Disk), so there is little value in such simplified price comparisons. See earlier in this thread where I posted a much more comprehensive (and fair) price comparison. Sure, XBox Live is not necessary, but again, what semi-hardcore gamer is going to get a 360 and NOT play it online?

Any value or price comparison needs to be looked at from the individual's point of view. I think we've proven that no single price comparison is going to be valid for every person's situation. Someone will always have an objection. The important thing is that we have uncovered all the potential costs so that monster and machine can make an informed decision.

A word of advice to those who haven't made the mistake yet, don't buy cables from FS or BB. Monster cables are a complete and utter rip off. I picked up my HDMI cable from Canada Computers for $30 and it's a good quality cable with gold contacts. FS wants $160-$230 for the equivalent length "Monster" brand cable. It's such a scam!


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

I know I said I'd stop but I couldn't resist posting this article..

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm

Of course, I am also prepared for madgunde's own expertise phonebook threads in reply to every pro 360 comment made in the article. I do give you credit for being relentless and having such passion for something. I didn't know a "silly" comment like mine could spark such fury. Too bad it's wasted on a gaming console. I am in total favor of hearing more of your views but I think a new thread would be more appropriate for that.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

MACinist said:


> I know I said I'd stop but I couldn't resist posting this article..
> 
> http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm
> 
> Of course, I am also prepared for madgunde's own expertise phonebook threads in reply to every pro 360 comment made in the article. I do give you credit for being relentless and having such passion for something. I didn't know a "silly" comment like mine could spark such fury. Too bad it's wasted on a gaming console. I am in total favor of hearing more of your views but I think a new thread would be more appropriate for that.


Read the article, which makes some interesting speculation from a developers point of view, but most of what he's saying about the PS3 is just that, speculation. How do I know this? It's obvious this developer hasn't spent a lot of time using the PS3 yet, since he admits he hasn't actually tried the online play yet:


> Playstation 2’s online support sucked. They are now playing catch-up, trying to emulate Xbox’s model. But they had their hands tied just trying to make the PS3 work, it was incredibly ambitious (blu-ray etc.). *I haven’t seen it yet*, but I seriously doubt the quality will be anywhere to the level of XBOX 360.


A lot of the points made are not new, but are valid, regarding the PS3 being brand new, vs. the 360 that is over a year old, and they're fair points, just as the PS3 being better hardware value is a fair point. I think most people who decide to buy a PS3 are fully aware of this, and are OK with it, because they're only going to buy a certain number of games in the span of a year, and so only having 15-20 to choose from right now is not a big issue. By the time they run out of games they want, lots of new titles will be available to them. For example, I already have 6 titles for PS3 that I'm happy with (none of them sports titles, not interested in sports games). I have 2 games on order that I want scheduled for delivery in February, and another 4 scheduled for March. So in under 3 months, I'm going to have another 6 games in my library, which will probably keep me occupied until more new titles that I want are available. It's important to note that I'm talking about games that I am actually interested in. There are a lot more titles coming out in this timeframe that just weren't the type I'm interested in. My point is there are plenty of good games available and coming out to keep us PS3 users happy.

In relation to the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray drives, I'd like to point out something that seems to have been missed so far (wasn't covered in the article either). The main reason I valued the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 was NOT to watch movies. It was because of the additional storage it offers game developers. How many games for the 360 or even PC/Mac now come on more than one DVD? You'll probably NEVER see a multi-disc game for PS3 (at least not for years), but there are already several for the 360 from what I hear. I find swapping discs mid-gameplay to be very detracting from the gaming experience. This will become a more common problem on the 360 as games get bigger. It's an even bigger issue on consoles than computer gaming because games don't generally get installed to the hard disk on consoles.

As for pricing of games, yes, the 360 has an advantage given it's been out for a year, but I've read articles indicating that the first round of title price cuts for PS3 games are just around the corner, so this is again something that will only be an issue for the next couple of months. A year from now, this will hardly be an issue at all, especially as future cross-platform titles approach simultaneous release dates.

Most of the rest of what the developer had to say had merit, but may also have been biased because it's obvious he has a lot more experience programming for the 360 (for obvious reasons), and his comments aren't really supported by what we're seeing in games that are actually out in the market. In any case it's not as bad as he makes it out to be, and again, as developers gain experience with the PS3 and the development tools mature, these issues will be ironed out. At the end of the day, you're going to have as much fun on either console, so buy the one that satisfies your desires/expectations/needs.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

There's one other point that I'd like to add in the never-ending console wars. The PS3 seems to have embraced digital game distribute more fully than the XBox 360. Currently (and this might change in the future, but when/if is not known), XBox Live Arcade titles at capped at 50MB in size, and even Microsoft is only selling it as being for smaller titles. That puts a big limitation on the complexity of inexpensive games you'll be able to get online for the 360.

The PS3 on the other hand has no fixed limit, and so downloadable games can be much more complex. I bought one very fun game called Gripshift, which was over 300MB, and it's a very complex 3D game on the level of complexity and size as you'd expect from a PS2 game, but with full HD graphics. This game could be a retail release title for $35, but instead it's available for download for just $10.99. I also picked up Lemmings, which is a on old favorite of mine and has been remastered for the PS3, which was around 80MB if I remember correctly, too big for XBox Live Arcade.

There are a lot of developers that are expressing interest and love the idea of developing shorter download only titles, but there will be a lot of titles for PS3 that just won't be possible for the XBox Live Arcade because of the size limitations. Although it's obvious, it's worth pointing out that the downloadable games for PS3 will help fill out the catalog of available games to play/choose from at a lower price point.

The Playstation Store also provides fully playable demos of retail titles for download. I'm not sure if the XBox lets you do this or not. I suspect it does, and that game demos aren't limited by the 50MB limit, but I don't know for sure. If someone could clarify, I would be interested in knowing. The downloadable demos are a great feature which lets you try out games before risking your hard earned money.


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## gruegoo (Dec 28, 2004)

Hey guys,

How about just starting a new PS3 vs 360 thread? The original question from this thread was:



monster and machine said:


> i have been looking at some gaming PCs and have discovered that the old adage that macs are more expensive is simply not true anymore. so, either i keep my powermac and buy a PC for games, or i sell my powermac and buy a mac pro. so my question is, will the mac pro and an upgraded graphics card running windows be able to handle the latest games on the highest settings?


and a lot of the posts seem to be a straight "which console is better".

monster and machine:

My friends are pretty hardcore gamers and they swear by their pc's, just because of the level of customization they can do. So I guess it really depends on how much you want to spend, and how you spend it. An expert pc modder will probably be able to build you a better system for the price, compared to buying a mac off the shelf.

Also, if you're looking to sell your old system and put that money towards a new intel mac, that's a huge price difference to getting a pc and keeping your old mac. If you have the money, it seems like a better option to buy a pc as a second computer, simply because... then you have 2 computers, one of which you can mod into a dedicated gaming system.

Do you have a budget in mind? That might help the decision making process.


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

Yes, you can download game demos and trailers from the Xbox marketplace for free, and there is no size limitation some of the demos are around 1.5gigs. I'm assuming the demos from the playstation store are free aswell?


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

gruegoo said:


> How about just starting a new PS3 vs 360 thread? The original question from this thread was:


I think the console discussion is valid, because the consoles were offered as an alternative to getting a dedicated gaming PC. If someone had challenged the choice to get a console instead of a PC, the discussion would probably go in a different direction. I'll offer up my opinion on the matter.

I used to play all my games on my Mac. Mostly first person shooters and the occasional RPG or RTS game. I had an XBox (the old one) but still found myself spending more time playing games on the Mac. I don't play a lot of games, but the few games I do play, I tend to get a lot of use out of. I have lost a lot of sleep playing Ghost Recon and the Rainbow Six series over the years, especially online. I considered myself a computer gamer, not a console gamer.

The PS3 has I think finally converted me over to the console side for the following reasons:

Games finally look as good and complex on my HD television as they do on my Mac (currently a Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro, which plays games great!). 
I'm tired of my Mac getting too out of date to play the latest games and having gameplay suffer for it.
I'm tired of waiting for great new games to make it to the Mac (obviously not a problem for Windows gamers).
The PS3 Sixaxxis controller has greatly improved accuracy and sensitivity over older generation console controllers. Although I played Halo 1 and 2 on my XBox, I never quite got used to the controller for FPSs. I find the PS3's controller to be a very good substitute to the mouse and keyboard (not as good, but quite good), and I found playing FPSs like Resistance and COD3 to be quite smooth and fun compared to my old XBox FPS experience. While I still prefer my keyboard and mouse for FPSs, I'm quite comfortable playing them on the PS3, and the huge screen and surround sound of my home theatre makes up for any frustration I might encounter due to the controls.
No installation necessary. My Mac's hard drive is full of half-finished games that I intend to get to at some point, but never seem to finish. This isn't an issue with consoles.
I would like to qualify inadvance that I'm specifically arguing the case for using a console over a PC, so the above points illustrate the pros of a console. There are plenty of pros for using a PC for gaming, but I'll let someone else argue that case. There is no one right answer, it depends on your individual tastes/gaming style as well as the available funds.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

Mrsam said:


> Yes, you can download game demos and trailers from the Xbox marketplace for free, and there is no size limitation some of the demos are around 1.5gigs. I'm assuming the demos from the playstation store are free aswell?


Yes, game demos are free from the Playstation Store and some of them are quite large. A bigger hard disk certainly is an asset in this case.


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