# Mac Mini a good deal?



## •MACMAN• (Dec 9, 2002)

So just a little bit of a gripe.

The Mac Mini looks like a good deal to lure in new users... BUT... when you do the math it's really not that great of a deal.

You're basically getting a repackaged CPU from a current eMac or a previous generation iMac without the required peripherals to actually do anything.

I did as close of a feature for feature comparison as possible on the BTO Apple Canada store and this is what I came up with.

A new Mac Mini at 1.42 Ghz with a 80 GB drive, 256 MB Ram, Superdrive, 20" Cinema Display and a wired Mouse and Keyboard comes out to $2206.

The 20" iMac G5 is $2399. So for an extra $193 I'm getting the same Ram, same Superdrive, same size monitor, and the keyboard and mouse. In addition to that I'm getting an upgraded G5 processor at 1.8 Ghz, double the hard drive space at 160 GB and running as a serial ATA, and a vastly better NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra w/64MB video memory. Not to mention the ability to run 64 bit programs, hardware that is not already obsolete, more (and cheaper) Ram upgradeability, stereo speakers (does anyone know if the Mac Mini has a speaker?), more IO ports and less cable clutter on my desktop.

Not sure about you but that sounds like pretty good value for a measly $193!

Just my opinion though. I'm sure it'll make sense to the countless thousands that'll snatch them up like hot cakes. Go Apple! I fully support them offering computers like this to appeal to switchers but to me the math just doesn't add up.

Macman.


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## The Great Waka (Nov 26, 2002)

For a product like the mac mini, you really have to look at exactly the target market. It is not for the already mac user. 

It is for the average joe PC user that is fed up with all the problems that go along with the Windows world. They want to surf the net, check their email, write documents, etc. without having the stupid thing crash every few minutes/get hundreds of virii. 

They heard enough about to mac platform to understand that it is what they want, and they are on the border of switching. But they have already invested money in that newish LCD monitor that they heard would be better to look at for extended periods, or have a CRT monitor that they are happy with. They also have this nice keyboard and mouse. They want to switch, but they don't want to throw down +$1000 and wasting that monitor. 

Enter the mac mini. The right performance for average joe, with all the perks of the mac world. And the price to rival the budget computer that they would be looking at as their next computer. 

Will existing mac users buy mac minis? Probably not. But it is the perfect solution for the market that Apple has left untapped for so long.

My applause to Apple.


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## farfisa (Nov 5, 2003)

I agree, it's totally a switcher machine. The "instructional" images even say "hook up your old PC keyboard, mouse and monitor." 

I don't even use the mouse or keyboard that came with my mac, but I paid for them... I think they're on to a good little marketing switch here--most macs come with everything, and people say "wow they're expensive," then one comes along with nothing and people say "wow, it's cheap," and they won't realize they have to buy everything until the salesman moves to the "add-ons" section.

Though having DVI and therefore the ability to use the cinema displays is pretty sweet, I don't think that's what most people will do.


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## agent4321 (Jun 25, 2004)

I'm curious why the Mac Mini doesn't sport a G5 processor? Seems kinda weird. The all-in-one iMac G5 has one and it seems to be about the same width as the Mac Mini? Hmmmmmm...  

I guess they couldn't fit enough fans into the Mac Mini to cool down the G5 processor?

Anyone know why Apple would go with the G4 and not the G5? Maybe it's in the keynote speech which I haven't seen yet...don't mind me just babbling. :nuts:


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Even if you did buy it with a 20" display, you'd have bought something that a lot of people value: the ability to replace the computer in a few years without ditching a perfectly good monitor.


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## •MACMAN• (Dec 9, 2002)

iMatt said:


> Even if you did buy it with a 20" display, you'd have bought something that a lot of people value: the ability to replace the computer in a few years without ditching a perfectly good monitor.


This is a good point. What is kind of ironic though is that if I bought a Mac Mini today and wanted to use my current "perfectly good monitor", which is a previous model Cinema Display LCD, I'd also have to buy a $129 Apple DVI to ADC Display Adapter. Too funny!

Macman.


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## cottageboy (Apr 15, 2004)

The purpose is to get those that already have a monitor to purchase the mac mini, to get iPod users who love the "mac" interface on the iPod and are familiar with iTunes over to the mac platform. Those people already have a Windows PC (all personal computers, even macs are PCs, but the name has been synonymous with Windows computers for ages), and so they have a separate monitor, mouse and keyboard ready to go.

If you bought the 2-" Cinema display, you would have what looks to be a larger monitor than on the 20" iMac, and i think if you look at buying that, you will also consider the iMac. Or you won't source your monitor from Apple, you'll go to another vendor for a cheaper LCD, perhaps Formac.


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## Betty Fooz (May 2, 2003)

I will be buying a Mac Mini. I presently have an iMac G4. When I first bought it I thought the LCD screen was great, after further use it started to annoy me. I started off doing a little bit of graphic design on it (this being the reason I originally "switched"), I do a lot more now and it is really hard to adjust the LCD to be colour correct. I am happy with the processor speed and hard drive space I have now but I would love a nice 19 inch CRT that can be callobrated easily. I would also like a superdrive. 

Betty Fooz


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## Urban_Legend (May 29, 2003)

I'm having a hard time understanding the average Mac user today when they heard the news of the Mac mini.

The most number one requested future from ALL and EVERY Mac bulletin board that exists on the web from last year wanted:

A headless Mac so that they can hook it up to their already available LCD or CTR monitor, keyboard and mouse. This wasn't even big news or that big of a request from PC users. This came from sites like MacNN, Macworld, MacAddict and even here at ehMac and that is only a short list of sites. Then there is ZDnet who also had requests from Mac users and many digital photo sites also talked of a headless Mac and that was the number one request.

The Mac mini is for the person who owns a monitor, keyboard and mouse and is looking for a cheap starter Mac, cheap alternative, cheap add on to a home network etc.. Most likely the PC users will play an important role in the market as they are always looking for a cheap priced computer. That is the bottom line and Apple is not marketing towards those that want to start from scratch, that's why they have the iMac line up or the eMac line up.


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## 2063 (Nov 9, 2003)

*mac mini is great*

The mac mini is not meant for YOU! It's meant for that 80% of computer users who only use it for basic stuff. More specifically the family and friends of mac heads (us) and those who have said the oh so popular phrase "I think i'd get a mac if they were cheaper".

This is the call to those people to keep the display, keyboard and mouse... BYODKM... and buy a sweet mac that they can either lightly use and be happy with, or with any luck, use for the iapps and realize the benefits of the higher end macs, and then of course buy an imac or emac or ibook... whatever..

If marijuana is the gateway drug (which I'm not entirely convinced it is)

Then mac mini is the gateway mac (and I'm glad they've decided to fulfill this niche that, let's face it, wasn't being filled by apple before)


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## Ryan1524 (Sep 27, 2003)

it's also good for mac users who already ahve a powerful computer and just need somethign for the family, say their kids, or they parents to use on. for example, my mom uses a pc to do excel, word, browse web, check mail, etc. this is the perfect opportunity to get her to stop complaining about that POS, and let her use a mac instead. 

with a little nudge from me, i'm pretty sure the last PC in our house would be gone soon, replace with the mini.


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## stargurl (Oct 27, 2004)

ravijo said:


> This is the call to those people to keep the display, keyboard and mouse... BYODKM... and buy a sweet mac that they can either lightly use and be happy with, or with any luck, use for the iapps and realize the benefits of the higher end macs, and then of course buy an imac or emac or ibook... whatever..


 As a non-Mac user, I'm confused by this statement. 

iBooks: 1.2-1.4ghz, 512k l2 cache @ processor speed, 133mhz bus
mini: 1.25-1.42ghz, 512k l2 cache @ processor speed, 167mhz bus
iBooks: base 256mb pc2100 ram
mini: base 256mb pc 2700 ram
iBooks: base 30-60gb HD
mini: base 40-80gb HD

How is the iBook a step "up"? As far as I can tell, eMac vs. mini stacks up about the same. Am I missing something?

I plan to buy a mini ASAP, I've always wanted a mac but didn't want to put out the amount of cash necessary all at once (like others have said, I already have an LCD, etc. and didn't want to replace it for no reason)

I haven't used a Mac in years, so forgive me for asking another basic question. Should I bother paying to add-in bluetooth or airport now if I have no immediate need for either? I assume it would cost more to add-in later on?


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

We have lots of spare monitors, KBs and mice at work: we also have a need for a computer to be used by staff in the lunchroom so they can access private mail, surf etc. The Mini is perfect for this task. It could also create a few switchers...

My dad needs a computer for his cottage. Again, this is perfect as he is a classic iLifer: mail, surfing, photos etc.

There is also scope here for the Ed and corporate markets. For everyday tasks this machine is fine. In terms of power it's pretty much like an eMac. An external HD is an inexpensive way to add more space if needed.

For the target markets it's a great deal.

My only gripe is the usual one: installed RAM is too low and in this case it can only be changed by a dealer. A straight 512 would have made it much more effective.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

I`ll probably buy one as well as I have the necessary hardware to go along with the Mac Mini from my PC, like everyone the bummer is the 256mb of ram and the memory not being able to be replaced by the user is a kick in the ass as well.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

It's still early for this product and we all know that profits are made in the
introduction stage, Impulse buyers just have to be first to get something new.

I'm sure that Apple will start with some promotions soon like rebates on RAM
upgrades or discounts on Final Cut Express HD etc.

One thing for sure though...Love the price of the warranty on the MacMini.

Dave


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## 2063 (Nov 9, 2003)

stargurl said:


> I haven't used a Mac in years, so forgive me for asking another basic question. Should I bother paying to add-in bluetooth or airport now if I have no immediate need for either? I assume it would cost more to add-in later on?


Firstly, the emac does have roughly the same specs, however, as I already am a mac user, the eMac means that I get my computer all in one (CRT, and speakers is a huge thing for me) and my keyboard and mouse are given to me. Also, the eMac has a number of things, like two firewire ports, an audio in, and an easier to upgrade optical.

you WILL get a discount on both AP and BT if you install them BTO. I didn't bother with BT because I likely wasn't going to use it (still haven't needed it yet). BT is pretty much something you choose to get built in or not have at all. Whereas AP you can add anytime.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

*Add the BT option if you can...*



ravijo said:


> BT is pretty much something you choose to get built in or not have at all.


I would put both bluetooth and AP in at the time of order. The wireless benefits are awesome and can be activated when you're ready.

Mac Mini + wireless keyboard and mouse = clean desktop
Mac Mini + Airport Express base station = wireless printing anywhere in your home/office and music through a real stereo.


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## stargurl (Oct 27, 2004)

Again, as a non-mac user, I'd choose the mini over an emac any day. The eMac is far too big for my workspace, and I wouldn't miss audio in or a second firewire port. I've got both on my PC, and I've never used either. 

As a PC user, I already have a monitor, wireless mouse/kb set and speakers that I've invested in. I _like_ the fact that I'm not paying to get these items bundled in, as I would have no use for them.

I think the only changes I'll make will be to up the ram to 512mb and add an Airport card.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

while i tend to agree this machine will be great for switchers, i think it would be good for existing mac users who just need a machine for home use and detest the all in one concept.

i have an icekey, logitech mx700 wireless mouse, and 21" apple studio display. up till now, it was these items which prevented me from considering a low end new mac for home use.

the fact that the mini mac does not accept regular airport cards through an accessible slot is a bit of an annoyance to me. the ram options are crap too.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

stargurl said:


> Again, as a non-mac user, I'd choose the mini over an emac any day. The eMac is far too big for my workspace, and I wouldn't miss audio in or a second firewire port. I've got both on my PC, and I've never used either.
> 
> As a PC user, I already have a monitor, wireless mouse/kb set and speakers that I've invested in. I _like_ the fact that I'm not paying to get these items bundled in, as I would have no use for them.
> 
> I think the only changes I'll make will be to up the ram to 512mb and add an Airport card.


Maybe I'm missing something, but if you already have a wireless mouse and keyboard, shouldn't you definitely be getting Bluetooth built-in?


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## mactrombone (Nov 3, 2004)

Money, money, money. Cost, cost, cost. 

Same reason they all ship with paltry amounts of RAM. They need to keep the cost down to appeal to those who are buying the units.

Macman did the cost comparison at the top of the post and you can see why they don't ship with the G5. They want to get people to switch and those that already have a monitor, keybooard and mouse don't want the allinones because of stuff they already have. Enter the mini.

There were the same gripes about the G5 iMacs not shipping with BT or airport or more RAM or whatever but they had to keep the cost down somehow to appeal to consumers.


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

I think the Mac Mini is great value.

My dad *just* bought an eMac - but he really didn't need the monitor. This would have been great for him, but I think he's really liking the new machine.

I bought a Power Mac G5 about 5 months ago. The *main* reason why i bought it (as opposed to an eMac or an iMac) was the lack of a built in display. I use a USB KVM and did *not* want a display. I would have looked at the Mac Mini carefully - it may have fit me perfectly. 

I also suspect that the used G4 market will have a considerable drop in reaction to this introduction.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Unplug windows machine. Plug in mac mini. Get on with life.

I'd definitely consider one for my parents, who use an old PC.


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## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

I want one. I need to update my aging G4/450 and this is a great idea.

Now I just have to have the MONEY... After buying my ibook at christmas, well, funds are painfully in the red...

*SIGH*


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## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

ice_hackey said:


> Unplug windows machine. Plug in mac mini. Get on with life.
> 
> I'd definitely consider one for my parents, who use an old PC.


DITTO

I just hope your parents have USB keyboard and mouse ... a lot of brand new PCs still use PS/2.

Finally a Mac that comes with the latest software and is under $650. I'm pretty pumped about Pages, too, since NeoOffice/J is clunky and MS Office is expensive, so this also lowers the cost of switching.

I also look forward to seeing what the prices and specs will be next year. Could be a nice speed upgrade for me at a time when my PowerBook reaches the age of three, as I don't think I'll ever again spend as much money on a computer as I did on that PowerBook.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

This is obviously the 'killer hardware' that our parents and grandparents need.

I can't count the number of times that my dad and father-in-law both had major problems with their PCs with virii, spyware and other MS-targeted malware.

Trouble is, they're using 15" CRTs and probably have PS/2 keyboards and mice.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Who might want to consider it:
Current PC users
People with unused but not useless hardware laying around (monitors, kb's, mice) or available on the cheap
Current Mac users who want a second or supplemental machine
People interested in the "Media PC" direction
People whose PC or Mac experience consists of simply using the stuff they get with the machine or with a very few inexpensive programs (ie MS Works, AppleWorks)
People who owned or own a Cube and love it
People who use a laptop as a dual-purpose or desktop replacement (plug the Notebook into your KB, mouse + monitor now at home).
People who want to build telephone, print, mail, web, or security systems. A single 1.25GHz/100BaseT system is perfect for many load levels where G5/Gigabit is overkill.
Education markets with PC hardware investments; could drive some iBook Education programs; the cost to implement with desktop support just went down

Who it's not for:
People who need a desktop Mac for specialized work (ie work with expansion cards)
People who currently own an iMac or eMac
Gamers

Looking at the Mac lineup today, we see a very mature product offering:

Mac Mini $630 G4
eMac $1000 G4
iMacs $ 1600~2400 G5
G5's $ 1900+ G5
xServes $ 3800+ G5

Some nice possibilities with the Mini:
Mini + 20" Cinema Display $1830 vs $ 2400 iMac 20"
Your current desktop + KVM switch + Mini

A bizarre, but not totally crazy application:
Inexpensive cluster for college departments, schools, small research, small video render farms, etc. 6 Minis = 1 basic xServe (6x 1.25GHz G4's vs 1x 2.0GHz G5). $10K budget gets you switches, monitor, KB, mouse, and 12~14 Mini's.

Just, for fun, I will drag out a dreaded term from the past:

Apple is also throwing a bone to it's beleaguered dealer network; just like unsophisticated users in the PC market drive in-store software sales, Kb/mouse/monitor sales, and Service Department revenue with upgrades, so will the Mini.


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

viruses, people!

it's not virii!

arrrgh! (sorry, pet peeve)


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

stargurl said:


> As a PC user, I already have a monitor, wireless mouse/kb set and speakers that I've invested in. I _like_ the fact that I'm not paying to get these items bundled in, as I would have no use for them.


stargurl, you sound like you're the perfect candidate for the mac mini. exactly who apple are aiming at  enjoy!


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

KOS, you can upgrade the RAM stick yourself. I doubt you can install anything else though. The size of the beast is perfect for people who have a PC. It's almost like an external HD (use a KVM switch to flip between them). Makes me wonder whether there is (warning - sacriligeous statement coming up) a market for a PC mini for Mac users..... :yikes:


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

*I don't know how appealing the mac mini is to cube owners...*

I own a cube, and I don't find that the mini is really that enticing of an upgrade. Here's why I still prefer the cube (just an opinion, some other cube person might have already ordered theirs):
-Cube has a larger L2 cache=increased performance
-One more firewire port (firewire hubs are expensive)
-Easily user upgraded- Harddrive is a 3.5" (From what I have heard the Mini MAY have a 2.5" meaning you can upgrade to a 7200 rpm)
-Supports more RAM (3 DIMMS, meaning you don't have to shell out a ton for a 1gb stick, on the other hand, its slower RAM)
-If something goes wrong, theres a larger chance that I might be able to fix it myself
-upgradeable graphics
- a ton of upgrading options (enclosures etc.)) from third party vendors

However, I do see some of the benefits:
-smaller
- faster than most cube's 500 mhz processors (but smaller L2 cache, see above)
- new with warranty (my cube is old, i guess it could die tomorrow or 3 years from now)

Although the mac mini is a great addition to the Apple line (gives some peace of mind to peple owning older mac as well, at least if my cube dies I can order one of these and not pay a ton for a new mac) it still wouldn't lure me from my cube...maybe its an obsession though...


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## jonmon (Feb 15, 2002)

i already have a lcd, kb and mouse hooked up to the family pc

however if i do buy a mac mini, i would still want to buy an apple kb and cinema display


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

gordguide said:


> A bizarre, but not totally crazy application:
> Inexpensive cluster for college departments, schools, small research, small video render farms, etc. 6 Minis = 1 basic xServe (6x 1.25GHz G4's vs 1x 2.0GHz G5). $10K budget gets you switches, monitor, KB, mouse, and 12~14 Mini's.


I don't think that's a bizarre idea at all. I could see this becoming popular in schools. They already have kybd, mouse, monitor, network wiring etc. - the only problem is that all of this great stuff is connected to crappy Dell PCs. The network admin at my kids school was seriously dissappointed when Dell won out over Apple. Now that the complaints about the computers are rolling in, a cheap mac would work well. Heck, they could take it one step further and do custom minis with no optical drives and a smooth face (what do you really need the CD/DVD for in a school setting?).


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## dmpP (Jun 1, 2004)

farfisa said:


> I agree, it's totally a switcher machine. The "instructional" images even say "hook up your old PC keyboard, mouse and monitor."
> 
> I don't even use the mouse or keyboard that came with my mac, but I paid for them... I think they're on to a good little marketing switch here--most macs come with everything, and people say "wow they're expensive," then one comes along with nothing and people say "wow, it's cheap," and they won't realize they have to buy everything until the salesman moves to the "add-ons" section.
> 
> Though having DVI and therefore the ability to use the cinema displays is pretty sweet, I don't think that's what most people will do.


 I disagree... it's not a switcher machine... it's a a low-end poor excuse for a machine... for someone who doesn't use the computer for anything else than typing and internet. Anyone with half a brain who's into the online gaming, tech stuff, app dev., web dev, design, etc. will NOT be getting the lame-ass mac mini. It's sole purpose is to get people who barely use a computer to buy it.


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## stargurl (Oct 27, 2004)

iMatt said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but if you already have a wireless mouse and keyboard, shouldn't you definitely be getting Bluetooth built-in?


They're not bluetooth, they use a USB receiver.

I think even VISA wants me to buy the mini, I checked my balance online and they've upped my limit by pretty much exactly the cost 

I plan to purchase by the weekend.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Let's say I subscribed to Shaw/Cogeco for High Definition Digital TV, what is the laundry list to make this a killer Home Theatre/media PC??

- Motorola DCT-6420 Decoder box with firewire
- Mac mini w/DVD-RW
- Plasma/LCD display with DVI inpu
- Elgato EyeTV 500 HD PVR

Anything else?

Final Cut Express HD, Bluetooth Keyboard and mouse...


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

dmpP said:


> I disagree... it's not a switcher machine... it's a moron machine... someone who doesn't use the computer for anything else than typing and internet... It's sole purpose is to get people who barely use a computer to buy it.


I resent that you think that my parents and grandparents are morons. I think that you could have more tactfully indicated that it's not for advanced computer users.


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## Jackthemeangiant (Jan 24, 2004)

I have a question about the mini, as I am not too sure how Apple's specs compare to PCs.

If I got the Mini along with the Griffin iMic USB Audio Interface, would this computer be half decent for audio recording? It comes with iLife wich does multitrack recording. If the recording quality is half decent, this could be perfect for me, so I wouldn't have to lug my hugh, heavy PC back and forth to my drummers house.


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## dmpP (Jun 1, 2004)

used to be jwoodget said:


> KOS, you can upgrade the RAM stick yourself. I doubt you can install anything else though. The size of the beast is perfect for people who have a PC. It's almost like an external HD (use a KVM switch to flip between them). Makes me wonder whether there is (warning - sacriligeous statement coming up) a market for a PC mini for Mac users..... :yikes:


 I've been building micro-atx (MATX) systems for a few years now... this is not a new concept...

antek, aopen, nikao, shuttle, and soltek are just a few of the manufacturers that make the mini cases.... BTW... there are tons of MATX motherboards out there that can handle 3 sticks of ram, etc. 

here are a few links to photos of mini pc cases


http://sys.us.shuttle.com/Models.aspx (probably one of the leaders in this area) 
http://60.248.100.194/soltek/image/qbic_images/Qbic_Mania.jpg 
http://60.248.100.194/soltek/image/qbic_images/Qbic_Spring.jpg 
http://60.248.100.194/soltek/image/qbic_images/QbicII.jpg 
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=15130 
http://global.aopen.com.tw/products/Housing/H360series.htm 
http://www.canadacomputers.com/products/cases/full/case_plasma.jpg 
 Granted... none of them are as sleek... but still...


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## dmpP (Jun 1, 2004)

my apologies... how's this...

non-daily computer users....


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## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

dmpP said:


> I disagree... it's not a switcher machine... it's a moron machine... someone who doesn't use the computer for anything else than typing and internet. Anyone with half a brain who's into the online gaming, tech stuff, app dev., web dev, design, etc. will NOT be getting the lame-ass mac mini. It's sole purpose is to get people who barely use a computer to buy it.


Troll.

It's constructive to say who the machine is for and who it's not for. gordguide already did that. It's not constructive to make snobby, reckless dismissals like the one you just made.

So ... if there is a PC user with a $750 budget for an upgrade who does use their computer a lot, what do you suggest they do?

Personally, I get a lot of productive work done and have a lot of fun on my 12" AlPB 867. I am a very advanced geek with a complete brain, and when I'm home I like having a machine that looks good and meets my home/hobby computing needs.

It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it.


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## tedj (Sep 9, 2004)

> I disagree... it's not a switcher machine... it's a moron machine... someone who doesn't use the computer for anything else than typing and internet. Anyone with half a brain who's into the online gaming, tech stuff, app dev., web dev, design, etc. will NOT be getting the lame-ass mac mini. It's sole purpose is to get people who barely use a computer to buy it.


Bull. It's about time mac-loving people who can't justify blowing two-months wages on a system they have no sufficient use for were able to own a mac, the same people who don't call sitting in front of a monitor for two-thirds of the day a good time. This will be a wonderfully affordable upgrade for all the 5-year-old imacs sitting around that are just about to blow their monitors. Macs don't have to be elitist; they can appeal to the masses now, too.


P.S. You think those who don't "use the computer for anything else than typing and internet" are the morons? C'mon, now.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

dmpP said:


> my apologies... how's this...
> 
> non-daily computer users....


Even daily users don't always need the latest and greatest. I make my living "just typing", and none of my Macs is as powerful as the Mini...and yet I don't need to replace any of them urgently. They do wireless LAN and Internet, they run the OS and Word at an acceptable speed, and they can hold lots of music. They're all just as fast as they were the day they were made, and I use at least one of them every day. 

I'm not necessarily in the market for a Mini, but I can definitely believe that there are plenty of professional users who can make good use of one. It's a question of what you need to do, what sort of gear you already have, your budget, and your space requirements -- not how smart you are.


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## dmpP (Jun 1, 2004)

elmer said:


> So ... if there is a PC user with a $750 budget for an upgrade who does use their computer a lot, what do you suggest they do?


 new mobo, ram, cpu, vidcard.... voila... done.... all for probably about $350-500 (depending on options)....


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

the only thing i find odd about the mini is apple's add saying that you can just hookup your pc's old mouse and keyboard. well about 70% of the time this can't happen. why? well only the very high end pc keyboards use USB, they are are still on PS/2. most mice are USB, but not keyboards. and i've never seen a PS/2 to USB adapter. just my 2 cents. otherwise, i am seriously considering picking up a mini.


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## dmpP (Jun 1, 2004)

oryxbiker said:


> the only thing i find odd about the mini is apple's add saying that you can just hookup your pc's old mouse and keyboard. well about 70% of the time this can't happen. why? well only the very high end pc keyboards use USB, they are are still on PS/2. most mice are USB, but not keyboards. and i've never seen a PS/2 to USB adapter. just my 2 cents. otherwise, i am seriously considering picking up a mini.


 the free kbd's the people get with their pc's are generally PS/2 only (not USB w/ a PS/2 adapter)... but USB kbd's can be bought for aobut $15 or so (for very low end ones) and a USB mouse for $5-10.... buch better deal than the apple mouse and kbd for like $100 or whatever they go for... I agree poor statement... Although... anyone with a kbd 3 or 4 years old would probably like a new one... nice... clean... etc...

For about 70 you can get a M$ wireless kbd & mou combo... but then again... you should probably also buy rechargable batteries and a charger too...


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## murbot (Mar 22, 2001)

dmpP said:


> I disagree... it's not a switcher machine... it's a moron machine... someone who doesn't use the computer for anything else than typing and internet. Anyone with half a brain who's into the online gaming, tech stuff, app dev., web dev, design, etc. will NOT be getting the lame-ass mac mini. It's sole purpose is to get people who barely use a computer to buy it.


Congratulations on having the Troll Post of the Day.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

oryxbiker said:


> the only thing i find odd about the mini is apple's add saying that you can just hookup your pc's old mouse and keyboard. well about 70% of the time this can't happen. why? well only the very high end pc keyboards use USB, they are are still on PS/2. most mice are USB, but not keyboards. and i've never seen a PS/2 to USB adapter. just my 2 cents. otherwise, i am seriously considering picking up a mini.


 Better get more serious and do some Googling: 

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=usb+ps/2+adapter&btnG=Google+Search&meta=


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

*Mac minies in the schools*

One untapped market is the educational market, especially the K-6 school. These schools do not have the space for an eMac lab, nor the money for an iMac lab. Still, they DO have a great many older keyboards, mice and monitors sitting around that could be utilized constructively rather than gather dust.


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## dmpP (Jun 1, 2004)

murbot said:


> Congratulations on having the Troll Post of the Day.


 TY...

controversy isn't bad...


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

dmpP said:


> new mobo, ram, cpu, vidcard.... voila... done.... all for probably about $350-500 (depending on options)....



LOL what a troll :lmao:. Where's iLife??? Where's the ability to edit HD video out of the box??? Where's Garageband with loop/sampled/real instrument composition and 8 track digital recording??? Hmmmm? Complete DVD authoring (yes with a bto DVDburner)?

Here's my favourite Navajo proverb fwiw - "You can't wake someone who's pretending to be asleep" . Think about it.


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

IronMac said:


> Better get more serious and do some Googling:
> 
> http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=usb+ps%2F2+adapter&btnG=Google+Search&meta=


good job IronMac. just a question, but if you were using one of those adapters, could you unplug it no problem like USB, or would it have the same rules as PS/2 that it would fry the thing if you unplugged it while the computer is running?

another lacking thing on the Mini mac is only 2 usb ports.


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## Ian Seyler (Nov 15, 2002)

I like the idea of these new Mac Mini computers. I am looking at getting one to replace my PowerMac G4 (Dual 867MHz). A 1.42GHz Mac Mini with 512Megs RAM will be fine for the light work I do. It will be nice to have a small, silent PC.

-Ian


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Normally, with USB, it's hot-pluggable, so you can plug and unplug willy-nilly without any problems. The only problem that may crop up is that the computer may or may not recognize the device without rebooting. But, I believe that that is very rare.

My Thinkpad T20 only has one USB port and I purchased a 4-port hub for it in order to widen my options. I will not get into a long story about that episode but it involved kitchen shears, blisterpak packaging and too-fat notebook HDs. :dead:


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## •MACMAN• (Dec 9, 2002)

gmark2000 said:


> Let's say I subscribed to Shaw/Cogeco for High Definition Digital TV, what is the laundry list to make this a killer Home Theatre/media PC??
> 
> - Motorola DCT-6420 Decoder box with firewire
> - Mac mini w/DVD-RW
> ...


I was considering the same option for a Mac Mini but upon further research it appears that the Mini isn't powerful enough to play the recorded content smoothly on a monitor or TV regardless of input connection. Seems the problem is that EyeTV relies solely on CPU processing to decode the recorded media stream, which is huge at about 8-10GB per hour. The minimum recommendation is for a fast G5 processor and dual G5 processors to ensure smooth playblack. Elgato apparently hasn't been able to tap into GPU acceleration due to Apple not releasing the the APIs for programmers to achieve this.

So, as much as the Mac Mini sounds like a wicked Media Centre idea (I was considering it) it doesn't look like it's powerful enough to fill those shoes. At least for video. It could serve as a nice digital music interface for the home theatre and perhaps even do for emailing and internet surfing on the TV in the living room.

Macman.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

•MACMAN• said:


> Elgato apparently hasn't been able to tap into GPU acceleration due to Apple not releasing the the APIs for programmers to achieve this.


Thanks for the reply. I suppose this could be the next iteration of the mac mini - a HT Mac mini with the HD EyeTV built-in.


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## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

oryxbiker said:


> most mice are USB, but not keyboards. and i've never seen a PS/2 to USB adapter. just my 2 cents. otherwise, i am seriously considering picking up a mini.


Actually, from all my years working in a computer store, many of the keyboards that are PS/2 came with a free little PS/2 to USB adapter.

As well, they are readily purchasable at any computer store. It's probably just something you've never felt the need to look for.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Most likely I will pick up a Mini as well but I will have to do some research, hopefully Apple did not cheapen out and install a 4200rpm with a small cache that will be very detrimental to the system`s performance.

Laterz


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

mycatsnameis said:


> LOL what a troll :lmao:. Where's iLife??? Where's the ability to edit HD video out of the box??? Where's Garageband with loop/sampled/real instrument composition and 8 track digital recording??? Hmmmm? Complete DVD authoring (yes with a bto DVDburner)?
> 
> Here's my favourite Navajo proverb fwiw - "You can't wake someone who's pretending to be asleep" . Think about it.


Well I guess that's the end of that ...


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## bandersnatch (Dec 26, 2004)

*as a potential switcher*

I am not impressed at all.

$629.99 for a mac with a 32 MB video card, no dvd burner, no keyboard and mouse and no network options?

Nope, not switching anytime soon.

Cheers!


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

bandersnatch said:


> I am not impressed at all.
> 
> $629.99 for a mac with a 32 MB video card, no dvd burner, no keyboard and mouse and no network options?
> 
> Nope, not switching anytime soon.


have you read ANY of the previous posts on this thread?  

take a hike.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> I am not impressed at all.
> 
> $629.99 for a mac with a 32 MB video card, no dvd burner, no keyboard and mouse and no network options?
> 
> ...


i think this is the wall apple is going to come up against. pc users who don't understand where the true value of the mac experience comes from (OS X and iLife, duh).


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## davidslegend (Jan 6, 2004)

*96% market share at Risk?*



tedj said:


> Bull. It's about time mac-loving people who can't justify blowing two-months wages on a system they have no sufficient use for were able to own a mac, the same people who don't call sitting in front of a monitor for two-thirds of the day a good time. This will be a wonderfully affordable upgrade for all the 5-year-old imacs sitting around that are just about to blow their monitors. Macs don't have to be elitist; they can appeal to the masses now, too.


I love this assertian-for far too long Mac's have been for the Rock Star ie. Sheryll Crow and many elitist who can afford 10 thousand dollars on a new G5 machine!!! Come on...here's an opportunity for ppl to experience the OSX devineness! For far too long normal "morans" have been excluded which translates to that 96% market share everyone likes to bitch about. Guess what...lot's of ppl choose a Celeron/Duron pc computer for budgetary reasons on the premise that they can't play all the latest games & such! 

Of course, I'm reading all this mac mini stuff 'cause I am questioning if it's time to sell my iMac G4 700 & move up to the mini! But, by the sounds of it, it may be too lackluster for me-slow hard drive? Low cache performance? What's the real scoop everybody??? 

Thanks!

davidslegend


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## stevieb (Dec 10, 2004)

The mini sounds perfect to replace my desktop machine where all I do is check email, use the internet, and use work. Occasionally I would do some graphic design stuff, but I do most of that on my ibook. Time to get rid of my windows PC!!!!


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## Mike Y (Nov 9, 2003)

I am wondering how many of you have bought an iBook or Powerbook so you could run back and forth from work to home? 

I just bought an iBook recently because I needed a way to go back and forth from work. I use a PC monitor at work and I unplug the ethernet from the PC. Really all I need is a Mini. For people who need portability from workstation to workstation this is great. I only wish I did not spend all of that money on a used wimpy iBook when I could have bought a good entry level Mac for a decent price. I am seriously considering selling my iBook and investing in a Mini.

I do not care what a lot of people are saying about the Mini. You simply are not in the same boat as me. I need:
a) portability between workstations
b) a decent price (they do not advertise it as cheap on apple.ca... keyword - affordable)
c) an entry level Mac
d) I want to use a portabile computer with a projector that is affordable


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

I can see a huge industry of small form factor accessory FW drives, travel cases, skins, docks, etc...


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## stevieb (Dec 10, 2004)

Mike Y said:


> I am wondering how many of you have bought an iBook or Powerbook so you could run back and forth from work to home?
> 
> I just bought an iBook recently because I needed a way to go back and forth from work. I use a PC monitor at work and I unplug the ethernet from the PC. Really all I need is a Mini.


I think I may have even done this for school - I got my iBook for almost the exact same reason, where the mini could have fit the bill!


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## bandersnatch (Dec 26, 2004)

yup, i did. kiss, kiss. 

opinion seems mixed on it.

i'd buy one (1.42GHz model) in a heartbeat if it came with 64 mb of ram on the video card, standard keyboard and mouse, 512 MB of RAM and integrated lan (on top of the default config) for $699.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

*Mac user upgrade*

Time to upgrade the wife. 
From a Pismo G3 400/512MB to the Mac mini

She never really moves it, when we got the Pimso she wanted the extented KB and a mouse, so they can go to the Mac mini and I have a monitor that I sometimes (rare these days) dual monitor with the Pismo.

I will put in the Airport, and up the ram to 512MB till the 1GB chips are cheap.

Apple was reading my mind.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

*P.s.*

I have not read any of his input yet but I will bet MacDoc does not like this unit. :dead:


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Were my ears burning  
Hey we LOVE Cubes and this is Cube II

I do like the unit for it's specific target which is switchers who have peripherals.

Our caution is to evaluate use against the very well priced iBook 12".

*Pluses* 
Choice of screen - Yay - we've got a basic bundle kb wireless mouse and 17" CRT at $770 that's excellent value given the software it comes with and it's a lot lighter and cheaper than an eMac 
Hey a 40 gig iPod is $500 guys.
That it will drive a 19" or even 21" is just a bonus. 

Choice of KB and mouse - finally!!!!! Excellent move. Also Apple has dropped their ridiculous pricing in KB and mouse.

Size - maybe too small but that will provide some cool integration solutions.
That DVi can drive a HDTV.
It can also drive a small LCD/TV combo - we are looking at a 10" 16:9 TV/Monitor combo. 
That means vehicular use with an inverter - the detachable screen is a benefit in some situations over an iBook.

*Errata*
The cinema output means Steve's Year of the HD has some meat on it for convergence uses. Lot of potential there needs some thinking about.
With a honkin big FW drive a lot of movies can be ON Call.
Kiosk use, shows - much cheaper than tieing up a Portable. Detach the KB and mouse and let it run.

*Downsides*
RAM - awkward - 256 on board would have been great. Second slot even better.

DVD burner option too expensive.

32 meg video has some limitations on presentation and of course gaming.

I'd say an inch higher would not have hurt and made for some minor expansion flexibility. 

















What's with the image limitations?? ;-(


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## sputnik (Jan 6, 2003)

I love it.
I want it.
I do, though, wish the Video was a bit beefier. 32 even by Mac standards is too low now.


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## bandersnatch (Dec 26, 2004)

sputnik said:


> I love it.
> I want it.
> I do, though, wish the Video was a bit beefier. 32 even by Mac standards is too low now.


 do you think in six months or so, they'll be coming out with a 64 meg model?


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

bandersnatch - The Mac mini comes with 10/100 Ethernet. I'm not sure what other networking you'd be looking for. 1000 Ethernet? It's only on the pro Macs so far.

The Mac mini is a superb machine designed for switchers who already have the equipment and want to try the Mac (albeit a low end Mac). It's not a machine designed to encompass more then this rather large niche. Outside of that niche, the Mac mini isn't a very good choice (sans cost).

My only complaints I've stated before are the one memory slot, but in order to create something that small at that price, there has to be compromise.

Everyone I've talked to that's looked at the device either wants one or comments that they are going to sell like hot cakes.


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## rollee (Feb 26, 2003)

as much as i love the mac mini, i will not be buying it. it is not a product aimed for me.
the target of the mini are not avid mac users but pc switchers or a lower budget consumer wishing an 'extra' mac setup. use for something like basic ilife and office usage. or even just to sync your ipod.
i find the debate on upgradability and performance seems to be a bit out of place, if you need more power for your work, this is not a mac you should look into. there are other macs for the job.
let the mini be a great starting point or addition to an individual's computing experience.
on the other hand no one has done any 'real tests' yet, perhaps this little apple really performs to impress.
apple is not making a product to compete with its other lineup but expand its presence in the pc world.

*one thing comes to my mind. i will perhaps not bother to upgrade my beloved G4 cube anymore since the mini is a great substitute...macdoc?


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## Roland (Aug 15, 2002)

I just ordered my Mac Mini 

I figure I'll either keep the cute little bugger or sell him to a friend who I've talked into switching for their kids desktop. (Probably as a result of my being at their house for 2 hours cleaning off spyware from the kids computer.)

They actually love that there is less of that kind of stuff written for the Mac. Plus they love the user switching.

Can't wait to hear first impressions and reviews.


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

PS/2 --> USB can be a little hit and miss with the basic adaptors, the mouse or keyboard has to actually support USB on an electronic level. Lots do, some don't. The more expensive ones are more reliable, but usually more expensive than a keyboard to begin with.

But I bought a fairly good USB keyboard and mouse for $10 at Futureshop,

It is nice that Apple has finally come to terms with the new rules of the game where price is the first and often only criteria. But when your market share is approaching the point of joining the "Other" catagory, it becomes difficult to keep waiting for the world to come to you. 

I actually saw some clowns complaining about it on the grounds "people who shop at walmart will start buying macs, it will destroy the mac community" 

Other than not supporting Mac OS 9, the only complaint I have about it is the slot-loading drive, I HATE THOSE THINGS, have some iMacs on the shelf with wrecked slot-loading drives that can't be repaired because even non-Apple replacements are more expensive than the machine is realistically worth.


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## pimephalis (Nov 29, 2004)

Heart said:


> Time to upgrade the wife.
> From a Pismo G3 400/512MB to the Mac mini
> 
> She never really moves it, when we got the Pimso she wanted the extented KB and a mouse, so they can go to the Mac mini and I have a monitor that I sometimes (rare these days) dual monitor with the Pismo.
> ...


 I am in the same boat. My wife uses a Dell right now, which causes both her and I some degree of unpleasantness. I've talked with her about moving her to the Mac, and we had previously thought we'd hold out until I needed a new laptop, and she'd take on my old iBook.

These mini Macs are absolutely perfect for us. She already has a serviceable CRT and a KB and mouse that she loves (ergonomic and trackball, wireless). For us, the mini Mac represents the following advantages:
*interoperability with my ibook
*fewer worries and maintenance routines for viruses and spyware
*greater system stability
*far greater media-ability (she does a lot with photos -- not manipulation, but scrap-booking and album creation)
*great space savings

My thinking is the the people in the thread griping about value for money are missing two key points: first, that they are not nor were ever thought to be the target market for these machines; second, the Mac represents a certain series of intangibles at the moment, and many people (including myself, who's not rolling around in cash) are willing to pay a premium for those.


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## flytnx (Oct 9, 2003)

*well said!*

i totally agree. people are missing the point here. it's not just for people who want to switch from pc's. not all users are clueless. i once owned several mac's and lost faith in apple when they pulled sudden death on the g3 desktop which set its value at... well worthless. i then bought a pc just to run linux on as my desktop because i couldn't justify the price of a mac when i am no longer working in the media field. the mac mini is an incredible value for someone who wants a well built box which saves tons of space and just wants to beat os-x at it's darwin core period.

i think people need to re-evaluate the n00b statements and realise that this a whole new market share apple has just cracked open.

i placed my order last night, and i can't wait to re-join the mac world 



pimephalis said:


> I am in the same boat. My wife uses a Dell right now, which causes both her and I some degree of unpleasantness. I've talked with her about moving her to the Mac, and we had previously thought we'd hold out until I needed a new laptop, and she'd take on my old iBook.
> 
> These mini Macs are absolutely perfect for us. She already has a serviceable CRT and a KB and mouse that she loves (ergonomic and trackball, wireless). For us, the mini Mac represents the following advantages:
> *interoperability with my ibook
> ...


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## flytnx (Oct 9, 2003)

*whewps.*

heh i should have read this post befoure my last - well bloody said! 



tedj said:


> Bull. It's about time mac-loving people who can't justify blowing two-months wages on a system they have no sufficient use for were able to own a mac, the same people who don't call sitting in front of a monitor for two-thirds of the day a good time. This will be a wonderfully affordable upgrade for all the 5-year-old imacs sitting around that are just about to blow their monitors. Macs don't have to be elitist; they can appeal to the masses now, too.
> 
> 
> P.S. You think those who don't "use the computer for anything else than typing and internet" are the morons? C'mon, now.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

I am an avid Mac user. Always have been, probably always will be. I have a PowerBook for myself, an iBook for my kids. My wife works in a predominanty PC environment but has launched a Mac movement and uses a PowerBook. My mother-in-law (who lives in an in-law suite we built for her) has an old iMac 333. I think it's time for the iMac to go and will be replacing with a Mac Mini. I will also be adding a Mac Mini with 80GB and Airport to my media room and possibly home office. This type of system totally fits to fill in the little gaps that a large G5 or all-in-one cannot fill (either physically or financially). The power isn't an issue for most gap-stop uses.

On the other hand my sister, brother, parents and all other relatives use PCs. They would like to switch but couldn't justify the price. I see many doing so now.

Apple will do well with this little box.


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## RC51Pilot (Mar 26, 2004)

*Geez talk talk about late to the party...*

Obviously this has been a hot topic and of course I'm late into it, but what the heck.

I love the new mini. I don't know if I would replace my iMac G5, and I do pine for a PPC G5, but I can see a lot of PC users that were afraid of the price taking the leap. if I were thinking of switching - this definitely would have put me over the edge.

I have visions right now of students everywhere, rigging themselves out with the new iPod Shuffle and the Mini. I mean what a combination. A total Apple solution under $1K. (Barring any required expense for KB/M etc.)

I think these things are really going to sell well, and I hope bring Apple deeper into the PC market again.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Bandersnatch, Apple will undoubtedly refresh the mini to a higher memory video card. Probably in 6-9 months. 32 Mb is enough to run Quartz Extreme but not some of the Core video goodies in Mac OS X Tiger which will be released between April and July. However, the video card will drive 20 and even 23" lcds in cinema mode. This is NOT a gaming machine. Indeed, the potential for switching PC users who are primarily gamers to this Mac mini is nil. However, you'll notice the mini comes with iLife. If you use an iPod, a digital camera or a DV camera, this puppy is perfect. The difference in useability for digital media management on a Mac compared with a PC is **enormous**. Sure, you can upload, drag, exchange, launch various programs on a PC. On a Mac, you plug in the media device and the appropriate applicaiton opens and asks you whether you want to import. Take a digital camera with some pics on it with its USB cable to Futureshop and ask the sales guy to plug it into a PC and a Mac. It is night and day. Low-end Macs are NOT about the components or clock-speeds - they will never compete on that basis. But the sum is far greater than their parts. Pragmatism over specification.


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## GORDOOM (Jan 15, 2004)

(For the record, I have a 12" PowerBook G4 as my main machine, and a Sawtooth that I use as a router and storage box, among other things.)

If I didn't need portability, would I get this machine personally? Probably not. I like having the ability to run dual monitors. I like having the ability to put multiple huge hard drives in the unit and store lots of stuff. (For that same reason, I might replace the Sawtooth with a low-end MDD or later QuickSilver, models that have on-board large ATA drive support.) I like having the ability to add a second off-the-shelf network card and create a proper router/firewall setup that won't mess up my residence network. Things like that.

But that's me. This Mac is not for people like me.

This Mac is for people like my friend upstairs whose Windows install is self-destructing on her again, who just wants something she can use (and for whom small and cute is a major plus). It's for people like my dad, who is tired of having to fix their home PC when my little sister puts something on there and messes it up again. It's for people who want something simple, that actually works, and who have realised that PCs running Windows don't satisfy that need.

Now, is there any chance of resurrecting the "Switch" campaign or anything like it?
(And does anyone have a free/cheap OS-X-ready Mac to donate to me for use in a switching campaign in my res?)


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

All PC PS/2 Keyboards and mice work with those PS/2-USB adapters. They cost about a buck, if you can't find one for free; every non-USB 3rd party KB and mouse come with them. I've got a few laying around myself. Of course they work with Macs as well.


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## bandersnatch (Dec 26, 2004)

Chealion said:


> bandersnatch - The Mac mini comes with 10/100 Ethernet. I'm not sure what other networking you'd be looking for. 1000 Ethernet? It's only on the pro Macs so far.


 Ahh, thanks.

If only it came with 64 MB on video card and 512 MB on the higher model for around $699.


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

It's a wonderful deal, and they'll sell millions of them. Not just to Windows switchers either - there are still many, many Mac users with old beige boxes who are long overdue for an update, but haven't been able to afford it. Also, it makes an absolutely ideal second Mac.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

bandersnatch said:


> Ahh, thanks.
> 
> If only it came with 64 MB on video card and 512 MB on the higher model for around $699.


I think that a 64 mb card would make this computer a little hot,
Also I think that the idea is to have a nice quiet fanless Mini Mac.

Anyone notice that the Mini Mac is about the same size as an old 40 mb Apple external SCSI drive?


Dave


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

*iUnload*

Okay gang. Overall, I LOVE Mac Mini. It's definitely on my Recommendation List™. For a good chunk of typical Windows users out there, we all know how the app bundle with i/eMacs can serve them, and Mac Mini's got it all, too (thank God Appleworks is still there for basic Word/Excel compatibility).

But there are some nasty scenarios -- scenarios that I believe may be more prevalent than we'd like -- that will rear their ugly heads. Remember: there are MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of PC users out there who don;t know the slightest thing about computers. I posted a big rant about this over at thecomputermechanics.com, and _now that I've solved my login problems over here_, I'll copy/paste the thing here:



Ottawaman (from Th Computer Mechanics forum) said:


> I found this quote telling..
> ""We've seen the unveiling today of a case that will be studied for years to come: Lead with low-price-point products, generate foot traffic and make customers move upstream" to more expensive products, or at least to ones with better margins. "


Well, isn't THAT a novel concept? 

There's obviously the potential for a customer looking to buy the Mac Mini to be upsold. Every retailer hopes for that with every customer that walks in the door. The other scenario -- again not exclusive to Apple -- is that of Mac mini buyers replacing that thing a couple of years down the road with something bigger. The Mac Mini may not be on its knees trying to serve the user by then, but the user just might want to go there anyway. The Grand Plan of course is that -- hopefully for Apple -- once they go Mac, they never go back.

With this device, however, Apple should really STILL be selling a 17" LCD -- A CHEAP ONE. Or, even an Apple-branded 17" CRT. Given how they have molded their product line over the past years, Mac Mini seems obviously to be something that was NOT in the cards way back, and that the massive impact the iPod has had took even them by surprise. They saw the opportunity to release a cheapo Mac to take advantage of this mass interest (not to mention the growing frustration with Windows) and hopefully grow some userbase (this appears to be starting, as there have been a couple of users here interested, and there are a bunch down at ARS Technica looking to add Mac Mini to their PC world). But the rest of the product line appears lop-sided. Now, this isn't new, but they're selling NEC/Mitsubishi CRTs for as low as US$159.00. *But they are aliens within the Apple design landscape*, and something tells me that Apple is NOT planning a mea culpa on their own CRTs, Mac mini or not.

Ditto with their keyboard and mouse. It is now time for Apple to bundle them and sell at the current price of ONE device; say around $40.00. It's actually not THAT bad with their keyboards, however. Their wired keyboard is $29.00 -- but so is their mouse! Meanwhile, they're also selling 3rd party mice for much less -- AND you get two buttons and a scroll-wheel (Kensington pocket-mouse @ $15, MS Optical -- the slick looking "S+Arck" design -- for $20 and several more).

So -- like iPod Shuffle NOT having a display, Apple tries to spin their shortcomings into plusses: "No display? Let iPod Shuffle surprise you!" That one is viable. I love shuffle mode on my iPod. I think ipod Shuffle is acceptable, thanks to the low capacity of songs. I see people loading it up with songs SPECIFIC to the particular activities they'll be doing for the day. Then, reload it the next day. So, shuffle mode will probably be compatible with that small range of songs, yet most any song being compatible with the listener's mood. Of course, you can tun off shuffle and play down a preset playlist.

Now, about that $499.00 Mac? "Use that beloved, grody, pizza-stained *PS/2* keyboard and mou... uh-oh..." For some folks, Mac Mini _all by itself_ will be just right, right out of the box (but, there's that RAM again... more on that later) and they'll be able to use it according to Apple's playbook. For many others (how many cheapo PCs came with USB input devices??), the situation will be less than perfect -- ESPECIALLY if they get home with Mac Mini and ONLY THEN discover that their stuff is NOT USB. Just imagine the tech support calls:

UWS ("Unknowledgable Windows Switcher" -- there are tens of millions of them out there, and they do not hang out at online forums... they barely know how to change their printer cartridges): "I can't plug my mouse and keyboard in."

Apple: "Sir, you can use any USB device with Mac Mini."

UWS: "But I tried connecting my mouse and keyboard, but there's no matching hole on the back."

Apple: "What does the plug on your keyboard and mouse look like? Thin and rectangular? Or round?"

UWS: "Round."

*BUSTEEEEeeeeeD!!!!!*

Then, it's BACK TO THE STORE. And they won't be happy when they're upsold an Apple keyboard and mouse. Frankly, with one button on the mouse, they'll probably start feeling like they're being ripped off -- and I wouldn't blame them for feeling that way by then. Then, it's back to the house -- but, it AINT OVER YET!!

_*RIIIIIING.... RIIIIIING....*_

Apple: "Thank you for calling Apple Canada. How may I help you?" (for brevity, I'm skipping the "Press one for French" etc.)

UWS: "Okay, I connected my old keyboard and mouse to Mac Mini and started it up. Everything looks great -- and that music during the introduction is pretty cool. Now, I need to get my documents -- *AND MY OUTLOOK EXPRESS DATA AND EXPLORER FAVOURITES* on to the Mac. How do I do that?"










Wow. Unfortunately, Microsoft didn't make it easy for people to do that, because these critical files are BURIED DEEP within the innards of the drive. As I mentioned in another post (somewhere on TCM), Apple should DEFINITELY have bought or licensed Move2Mac! those guys have got it together!! *They even have two packages: one for PS/2->USB and USB->USB!*. Those guys thought it through.

Apple didn't.

_To ensure customer satisfaction_, Apple should include a PS/2 ->USB adaptor with every Mac Mini -- and it better bloody well be a 2-in-1 adaptor, rather than TWO adaptors, because once the "UWS" plugs the TWO adapted devices into the TWO supplied USB ports... there'll be no room for his printer... or his digicam... or his scanner.

Then, it's back to the store for a USB hub.

Speaking if "hub", seeing as the Mac Mini is an Apple™ computer, it's probably a "Digital Hub™". Right? What if this UWS never had speakers with his P.O.S. PeeCee? Gee, better pick up a pair of crappy speakers while at the Apple Store. Maybe they have some cheapo Labtec speakers for $15.00?










No? Great. The cheapest speakers they have are these for $50.00










_Available this coming MARCH!_









**sigh...**

Talk about birthing pains!

Welcome to Upsell Hell.

Further on the RAM issue: what will the impression of these people be when, with a heavy Safari session, Mail, iChat, iTunes and perhaps Appleworks loaded up (I'd say that's a fairly typical use of a computer in this day and age), that OS X starts paging to disk like a mofo? They'll go and think, "Gee, my PC geek cousin was right: *Macs ARE slow!"*.

Being concerned about the RAM in Mac Mini -- even for the casual user -- I booted up all that I believe a typical user might throw at it at one time: Safari, Email (in my case: MS Entourage. Not OS X Mail.app), iChat, Appleworks and iTunes... and Calculator. With OS X reading 2,000Mb of physical RAM (like I have to worry about it?), here's how the usage breaks down (highest readings for each):

Wired: 138Mb
Active: 169Mb
Inactive: 294Mb
TOTAL used: 602.76Mb

But, that also includes OS X's Activity monitor app, plus several 3rd party hackaroos I'm running. Total USED RAM once I take THOSE out of the equation:

*418Mb* used by Mac OS X alone and those several very typical apps...

and, when you consider that OS X does NOT quit apps after you close an app's last window.... that an app remains in RAM unless you actively QUIT the application... and people might prefer to put their comps to sleep (once the new Windows convert can understand that s/he CAN TRUST a Mac to wake up -- unlike Windows) which means that Halo might still be running in the background from a week ago (that's an exaggeration, folks), things will get pretty scary in the ol' RAM department.

Apple needs to GIVE IT UP and ship with 512Mb RAM, for God's sake.

(...184Mb of goop tossed in by my hand... holy jeez; I need to go on a diet  Thankfully, CPU load for these are light to nil.)

These two issues (PS/2->USB and 512Mb RAM) are two things Apple could have easily fixed. I don't know what the margins are on Mac Mini, but if I were Jobs I would have bit the bullet a little harder on this one. And Move2Mac SHOULD be bundled or at least DEEPLY DISCOUNTED by Apple at P.O.S. (it is no more expensive than Quicken which is bundled). Apple retailers will hopefully provide *a handy array* of CHEAP USB input devices and CHEAP monitors so that their excited "UWS" persons aren't calling back all pissed off.

People may be relieved to find that using a Mac is easier, more dependable and there's no bulls-eye on your back (well, not from the hackers. But Apple?? Sorry. Couldn't resist), but the road to Heaven can look like PURE HELL for a lot of people out there beyond the savvy -- and "slightly with-it" -- PC userbase.

/RANT


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## agent4321 (Jun 25, 2004)

*On The Fence*

I'm still on the fence about the Mini. I have high hopes that it will do well for Apple.

But most windows users and people in general want it all in one convenient package (CPU, monitor, keyboard, mouse etc) and ready-to-go out of the box. I know that us Mac users could care less and don't mind accessorizing our Macs and tinkering here and there. 

If I personally was to switch a Windows user I would steer them toward the iMac G5.

Just my thoughts :nuts:


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## sinjin (Jul 12, 2003)

Macaholic, including a PS/2 adapter and 512MB RAM standard would be great ideas. Hopefully Apple will get there with the next revision (but would probably have to bump all Macs at the same time). I think your worries, and Bill Palmer's, represent rare scenarios. 

Those "millions and millions of PC users that don't know a thing about computers" are not going to buy a Mac mini. They know so little about computers that they don't really equate Macs with what is on their desk, and if given a little info to the contrary would still fear that all their "stuff" wouldn't work with the Mac (and they may be correct). They are pretty much locked in out of fear and the knowledge that, for example, the software they've "borrowed" from work won't run on the Mac...and they don't know any Mac users to "borrow" software from. 

Those people are mostly non-starters. It's the "somewhat savvy" and the knowledgeable that will be buying Mac mini's in the greatest numbers, and they know if they have USB peripherals or not, they are not afraid. That whole scenario Bill Palmer laid out of the complete dolt (who evidently has to work at not swallowing his tongue) getting mad at Apple after a series of events surrounding the lack of peripherals (what, no keyboard? Uh the box is less that 12 inches cubed, what was your first clue?) with the Mac mini just isn't going to be very common. Someone who doesn't know how his/her peripheral interface with their computer is not going to be making any snap decisions at the computer store to drop their PC and walk out with a Mac.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Good post, sinjin. One thing is different in the mix of a PC users' sufficient knowledge to be able to discern the benefits of the Mac platform, and that is this:

_The iPod Halo Effect™_

From the Apple retail stores, right on down to Zellers (yes; ZELLERS), the iPod is the first Apple product since the 1980's to invade the awareness of the masses. Millions of people -- even my >70 year old in-laws -- know about the iPod. Now, it'll be interesting to see how far and wide the retail channels will be for Mac Mini (probably not Zellers), but if they dump millions into marketing (not their previous touchy-feely crap), this could be the beginning of a major renaissance for Apple. Dare we dream 7%??! That will not happen by them only appealing to savvy Windows users. As a matter of fact, those folks probably have reconciled themselves to the hassles of Windows (those guys that say, "I've never caught a Windows virus _because I know what how to use my PC"_. Well, there are millions of hapless PC users who are frustrated and at a loss as to their Windows systems. Those folks -- who ONLY think "price" and buy PCs off of a Costo palette, might make the switch. That's why this is Apple's most crucial hour to make a run for a bigger piece of the pie. And THAT'S WHY I'm concerned about the "birthing pains" I rambled on about, earlier.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Macaholic, I think you're forgetting that the first big potential switcher market to be conquered is the largely but not entirely clueless, price-conscious, frustrated Windows user <i>with a Mac-head friend or relative</i>. People who know what a Mac is, may have played with one, heard some friendly sermons , but always balked at the all-in-one concept and its pricetag. 

Their Mac-using friends are mostly going to be thrilled to help them get on the bandwagon and enjoy it. And the community is going to nip a lot of these elementary problems in the bud. Is Apple doing enough on its own? No, I agree they're not. But thanks to the existing Mac community, I don't think the number of highly negative Mac mini switch experiences will be catastrophic.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Oh, FOR SURE we all will be in there, saving souls  And those swung over will spread the word onwards.

Let's hope our commisssion cheques don't take too long in the mail!


EDIT: A Move2Mac rebate would REALLY help, I think.


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## Tomac (Dec 31, 2002)

In thinking about the Trading Post:

These Mac mini rigs will be super cheap to ship -- tiny box/lightweight. <<<When Windows switchers, etc decide to "move up" to a G5, etc.  

Of course, people might keep 'em. Yes indeed, a great 2nd, 3rd, 4th....... computer.

I'm thinking too far ahead. Or am I?


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## sinjin (Jul 12, 2003)

Macaholic said:


> _The iPod Halo Effect™_


Yes, I think you are correct. Most of those that do end up feeling like victims of the Mac mini will likely come from this crowd.


Macaholic said:


> Well, there are millions of hapless PC users who are frustrated and at a loss as to their Windows systems. Those folks -- who ONLY think "price" and buy PCs off of a Costo palette, might make the switch. That's why this is Apple's most crucial hour to make a run for a bigger piece of the pie. And THAT'S WHY I'm concerned about the "birthing pains" I rambled on about, earlier.


Time will tell, but If my parents, friends, coworkers and acquaintances are any indication, I'm not that worried. They all have been plagued by Windows malware, instability and other PC-centric hardware problems yet believe that it "is just the way it is", "the Mac can't be <i>that</i> much better", "you [me] must be exaggerating" and "I have all this Windows software and other stuff I don't want to replace or relearn". It boggles my mind how much trouble they put up with, and then dismiss me when I suggest there are alternatives. My parent's virus ridden Compaq has spent more time unworkable or in the shop in the last 3 months than out. A close friend just replaced his virus ridden PC clone with a now virus ridden Dell even though he had a pristine iMac to compare it with (not mine). [Mind you, I don't push hard, that usually backfires]. These are not isolated events, either. These are the millions and millions of PC users. Price was only one reason, and the easiest one at that, to justify their fear of switching.

Anyhow, there is incredible resistance to change in those who aren't computer savvy. Microsoft takes that to the bank. 

I see the biggest markets for the Mac mini being all those users who have been complaining that "they'd buy a Mac in a heartbeat if they could get it cheap and use their own monitor and multi-button mouse." They complained that Apple "forced" them to buy their "crappy" keyboards and single button mice, etc., etc. The internet has been awash with them ever since OS X came out, now is their chance to put their money where their mouths are. I also see big markets with Mac users looking to add another Mac to their home or upgrade from G3's or earlier. [As an aside, the people now complaining that the Mac mini is overpriced once you add in the cost of a monitor and a good mouse and keyboard, are not the target audience and/or don't know who the target is and generally just don't get it].

I think Apple is going to sell a ton of Mac minis to mostly satisfied customers. I also agree that they will run into some of the trouble you are expecting, but I bet they adapt to it quickly.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

The Mac Mini is going to go far for sure, I'd buy one, But I really don't need it.

However hopefully Apple will have chosen a good manufacturer of the external
power supply, I'd hate to see another exchange program started again.

The power supply for the Mac Mini is the external brick type as seen here in the QTVR:

http://www.apple.com/hardware/gallery/mac_mini_pc_jan2005_320.html
(QTVR takes a few seconds to start running with DSL, Longer on dial up)

Dave


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

There are all sorts of potential buyers of the Mac mini but the single most important aspect of this product is that is blows away the myth that Macs are necessarily expensive. If it simply gets people on a budget to think twice, it will have worked. The details on PS2 adaptors, migration software, etc will rectify almost immediately with retailers understanding the issues. This is a 1st gen product and you can bet Apple is watching carefully. There may well be selective ad campaigns that show the yellow brick road away from viruses and spyware. You can bet there will be a slew of Dummy books on how to migrate to your Mac mini.

Apple has done its homework. The Mac mini will not cannibalize its higher ends - it will grow the market. The timing is perfect.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Amen sinjin.

I often am _amazed_ at what many Windows users indeed put up with as "just one of those things" of using a computer. It's like, if you;re fed a turd a day, eventually some of them will taste better than others. 

(... can't believe I just typed that...)

So yes, there's A TON of ignorance out there, and I tell folks pondering the switch that the biggest hassle of using a Mac... is telling _other people_ you use a Mac. tptptptp


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

> Apple has done its homework. The Mac mini will not cannibalize its higher ends - it will grow the market. The timing is perfect.


I'm not entirely sure if Apple has done all of their homework...
The Mac Mini suggests that you can hook it up to a T.V. but it doesn't really mention that you
can use it on a T.V. instead of a monitor.

Apple says that you can use an adaptor to hook it up to a T.V. but the spec's for that adaptor
say that the adaptor is for a G5, Just an observation but I think a bit more clarification is still
going to be needed here.

Ideally the Mac Mini would be a great computer for use in front of the T.V.,
Imagine having a wireless keyboard and mouse or joystick while playing Halo on your 30"+
HDTV while in your livingroom, Now that would be a nice idea.

Maybe next year.

Dave


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

dolawren said:


> I'm not entirely sure if Apple has done all of their homework...
> The Mac Mini suggests that you can hook it up to a T.V. but it doesn't really mention that you can use it on a T.V. instead of a monitor.
> 
> Imagine having a wireless keyboard and mouse or joystick while playing Halo on your 30"+ HDTV while in your livingroom, Now that would be a nice idea.


No need to imagine... If your high-end RPTV, LCDTV, Plasma or projector has either DVI-input or VGA-input then you can hook them up already. Depending on the resolution of the TV monitor, it may need upscaling or downscaling (by the TV). Of course, you would need an adapter for VGA.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

dolawren said:


> I'm not entirely sure if Apple has done all of their homework...
> The Mac Mini suggests that you can hook it up to a T.V. but it doesn't really mention that you
> can use it on a T.V. instead of a monitor.
> 
> ...


Hold up there, bud.

I don't think that Apple is _trying_ to spin anything in terms of using a Mac to _consume mass media_ other than music. Apple's focus for the past few years at least have been all about the end-user _creating_ their content (iLife) and not consuming mass media. Certainly, Apple's own software efforts are nowhere near the *MS* Media Center direction, despite there being a bundled DVD player (and Apple was even ridiculously late to offer a CDRW, if you recall). There's no "Media Center PC" functionality. No TiVO killer. They've never shipped a remote with any of their comps. Oh! Apple's Airport Express? A half-baked babystep. Digital audio out on the G5s? Another more decent babystep, but all insufficient to indicate a seismic shift in Apple's strategy. Sure, we can put 1+1 together and buy Elgato EyeTV, but that's US ENDUSERS digging around the web, including rooting up those video adaptors Apple seems to sell somewhere in their onlone store.

Checking out the CES keynote this week online (even with Conan O'Brien labouring under the monotony, it was STILL like watching a fly crawl up a drape -- No _RDF™_ generators there), it is very clear that Apple and Microsoft have taken different tangents from the digital hub. And frankly, I'm concerned that Apple seems to be choosing to ignore what I definitely see as being the future -- and, despite the *MS* Media Center strategy having gone through two still-births so far (and now shooting for a third), the trend will eventually firm up. Traditional cable's days are numbered, and Microsoft is trying as hard as it is able to to get the convergence right. As a matter of fact, Apple didn't CREATE the market for downloadable music; they just gave it a better solution than file swapping. _But the market -- and such activity -- was already there in spades._ Downloading movies and TV shows -- legally or illegally -- is not yet near as mature a trend as music is. Nor is it as convenient. Maybe Apple sees this and is choosing to wait for the groundswell to appear like they did with downloadable music?

The fact that the Microsoft Media Center approach has not been very successful to date doesn't mean that it never will be. Consider portable MP3 players: Apple was far from the first to do it, but they were the ones to do it right. I certainly wish they would train their mighty quills on coding the superior Media Center solution. Maybe when *Apple* thinks it's the right time, they will?


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## sinjin (Jul 12, 2003)

On the topic of Apple positioning Macs to be a media centre, for me that was the first thought I had when I saw the Mac mini (since I already have a Mac and am into uber control of media). It was like one more piece fell into place. I believe Apple is being very coy about it, and keeping a healthy market for 3rd party developers of software and hardware, but it looks like a long term goal at this point. 

Scenario: Sure, buy a mini as a computer...or take that EyeTV off your Mac and move it to the living room with a new mini, oh and the mini plays DVDs and games and streams music...and before you know it the mini is a permanent fixture in your entertainment centre. Eventually, "everybody's" got one, just like the iPod...

I think the mini's specs will be more up to the task in its next iteration but it is almost everything this journalist thinks it is right now:


> http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/01/13/HNmacworldanalysis_1.html
> ...
> Apple's got a unique set of assets that will never run dry: Image, ingenuity, creativity, brand loyalty, nerve, and cash. Tech industry analysts that chuckled over the iPod company's efforts to rack up real market share in computers now have to deal with a well-heeled Apple minus the humility and projected timidity of old. Apple's $500 Mac mini is going to eat the lunch of low-end desktops. But not just that: Tricked out with accessories that are on the Macworld Expo show floor now, Mac mini is a DVR (think TiVo) without capacity limits, intrusive advertising, or phone-home reporting of users' viewing habits. It's a Playstation with a hard drive, USB, FireWire, Ethernet, expandable memory, a keyboard, and a mouse. Mac mini burns CDs, plays DVDs, and puts out composite, S-Video, VGA, or DVI (LCD flat panel) video. QuickTime 7 does that HD playback and editing thing, and the system's performance is on par with Apple's newest PowerBooks. It really is everything other Macs are, just smaller.
> ...


Interesting times!


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## Urban_Legend (May 29, 2003)

Macaholic,

Bingo! Your last sentence is what Apple is all about. In my opinion they have the highest and probably the best R&D research teams out there doing their homework. 

Microsoft's Media Centre may be great to Microsoft, but you don't see everyone running out and buying one causing Microsoft to have none left on the shelves. There are a lot of pissed of Microsoft PC users out there, who up until now are slowly looking else where. The very thought of a Media Centre controlled by Microsoft scares the hell out of some people. 

The Media Centre is going to depend heavily on Longhorns architecture and performance. Longhorn is a good year away yet, Microsoft users will be beta testers of Longhorn like Mac users were of OS 10.0 when it first came out. This is crucial because it will be the playing field on how Microsoft's Media Centre turns out in the short term. How many years will it take Longhorn to mature? 3 or 4?

My guess, is that the Media Centre will go the way of the Tablet in the short term, and not until everyone is comfortable with Longhorn will they think of running out and buying a Media Centre to run their lives at home.

If the Media Centre was the hottest and latest technology, why then, doesn't every Microsoft user own one? The reason? They are not Mac users who thrive and live off of new technology faster than Apple can create it. Most of them are behind in the ways of what we as Mac users do on a daily basis with our Macs and software.

I'll give you an example, I take some digital photos, pop them into iPhoto, edit and fire it off to iDVD and make a kick ass slide show with music and what not and burn it to a DVD. How many Microsoft users do you know who own the software on their PC do the same and actually do that on a daily or weekly basis? Strictly speaking of home users here. 

I can take a digital movie, create a mini Spielberg quality movie in minutes using iMovie or Final Cut Pro fire it off to a DVD and done. How many Microsoft users do you know who own the equivalent PC software do this with all their movies they produce with their digital camcorders? The point is, PC users are not taking full advantage of the technology at their disposal such as we Mac users are doing on a daily basis. They would rather just dump photos into a hard cover album, shoe box, or take up HD space on their computer, or just dump it to a CD. They are not creating things with their PC. How that will turn into millions of sales for the Media Centre is beyond me, as the target market is going to be slow to adapt, unless forced into it by Microsoft. If they are forced into it, then they won't be using its full potential.

The Mac mini from Apple could very easily turn into some sort of Media Centre for Apple in the future. From what I saw from the CES videos, Apple does a much better way of using iDisk and .Mac. They could easily expand on that and do the same but with software instead of a piece of hardware. 

I think Apple will be the leader once again when the timing is right.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"*They've never shipped a remote with any of their comps.*.............hmmm....well seems you're very wrong.

I have a perfectly functional Apple Computer, quite a famous one, built in TV and FM tuner, incredible sound system, fully integrated multimedia with a remote for all the functions.
And that was going on 8 years back










You see any PCs around looking like this even now.








MS IS WAS AND ALWAYS WILL BE a follower.

The TAMs even now are excellent MP3 play systems, terrific sound while your travel photos roll by on the screen. 100 gig drives internal......Oh and did I mention drop dead gorgeous.
So you were saying about Apple and and media and remote controls????


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

MacDoc PULEEZE!

I thought the 20th Anniversary Mac was slick, but even a Macaholic such as myself can be forgiven for forgetting such a forgettable failure. Interesting concept. BEAUTIFUL design ahead off its time. Ill priced. Quickly faded away. Jeez man, that was ELEVEN years ago, and the whole online thing was nowhere on the radar like it is now, which has changed the demands of the coders in a big way. You shake your head at me not remember the distant TAM. What about the gajillion other points I made?

(Next thing ya know, he'll take me to task for forgetting Pippin)


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Hmmmmm time/math challenged as well. 1997 +8 would + 2005.

It was also not the only Mac with a remote - plus almost any Performa could be turned in a media centre/TV tuner all with remote for $140.

The point being Apple has been in this game for a long time - when Gates was pushing code not hardware.

10,000 TAMs could hardly be a "failure" - it's a icon - still is. Mercedes gullwing comes to mind.

Biggest change will likely be avoiding the "not invented here" syndrome that marred Apple's early managment style.
Hooking up with the likes of Sony, Moto, Ericsson is the right move.

Offering seamless software is the key and Apple is miles ahead in that regard.
That Jobs is declaring the Year of HD shows clearly where the company is heading.









The mini is ONE piece of a year long effort. Stay ....ahem.....tuned.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Macaholic said:


> MacDoc PULEEZE!
> 
> I thought the 20th Anniversary Mac was slick, but even a Macaholic such as myself can be forgiven for forgetting such a forgettable failure. Interesting concept. BEAUTIFUL design ahead off its time. Ill priced.


Pricey? Yes, it was. Failure? Not really, it was never meant as mass market offering - it was a special limited edition and Apple sold every one.

As for another Mac with a remote, I recall the LC 630 had a TV tuner card with a remote control:









and of course the MacTV:


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Oooooooohhh both barrels at once  

BTW this Economist article may have been quoted elsewhere but it's worth a read in my mind.

*The halo effect*
Jan 12th 2005 
From The Economist Global Agenda

Using the phenomenal success of the iPod, Steve Jobs is having another go at the mass market for computers

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3555353

I'm a subscriber so if people cannot access it please ask for the full copy.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

The point I was trying to make is that Apple makes it look like you can hook up the Mini to a T.V., 
The imagination of the consumer soars from there.

My thoughts on it are is this just a T.V. out (Non keyboard control) or is it a T.V. with input use
by the Mini (Fully used by the keyboard and mouse via a desktop on the T.V., Like a monitor)

Sure...
I could hook up the mini to a T.V./Monitor LCD with built in tuner and I know that would work,
But these T.V./Monitors with tuners aren't going to be in everyones livingrooms, Right?
(It's funny I was seriously considering buying a 17" T.V./Monitor with built in tuner too a while ago,
But it wasn't going to be for the Mac Mini)

I watched the streaming keynote btw and liked the new Sony HD Video cam,
Now if they can only make it smaller.

Talk about ignorance btw...Steves Jobs mentioned about paying $100. a year for AAA batteries,
That comment was echoed here on ehMac about the shuffle, Just goes to show that ignorance can be taught.
Steve Jobs didn't even mention rechargeable batteries, Had I been there I think I would have
risked being kicked out just to interrupt him to tell him that there are alternatives to disposable
AAA batteries for use in the other MP3 players.

Dave


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## RyanB (Jul 13, 2004)

Sooo I'm thinking of one of these for my 72 year old mother in-law. Finally a Mac that I can talk her into as the price is in her budget. I am thinking that this would be a media centre for her den, would you folks recommend going the EyeTV route and making it a DVR, or going with a TV tuner LCD monitor? 
I am thinking that the Monitor may have advantages as it would work just as a TV turn monitor on and watce something, where the EyeTV would she would have to turn the whole computer on. However Eye TV she can record and playback/pause etc. I have never used either one, so I may not be acurate... please offer advice.
How easy is a EyeTV to use? if it is to complicated then she may not use it.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Wonderful, guys.

Ancient history.

All B.J. (before the return of Jobs). Life was different, then. (Remember Newton? Clones? And everything else?)

BUT, it does show that Apple did it before MS, and I'm happy you guys clarified that. I frankly should have remembered the tuners, but this stuff is nowhere on Apple's radar TODAY -- this millennium -- as we know it... unless wither of ya had lunch with Jobs this week.


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## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

The media centre isn't a bad idea for someone in a dorm room who only wants one screen. I used to watch DVDs exclusively on my computer back in the late 90s.

As for moving Outlook Express messages over, I'm sure great retailers such as Carbon will differentiate themselves by doing the transfer for the customer. Leaving out all peripherals also gives retailers flexibility. I already see some nice combos MacDoc has put up.

When you compare overall specs of the Mini to similarly priced PCs that are not based on laptop technology, it does get killed. So I'm not going around saying, "it's a great deal". I'm going around saying, "finally, an affordable new Mac". So many PC users are in a rut where they spend $300 or so every year upgrading this or that because their performance has magically gone down. Now they can think about getting out of that mess.

And it's not the same as buying a laptop, because you choose the screen and keyboard, and you don't have to deal with battery issues.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

No remote? If you've a BlueTooth phone or PDA, try Salling Clicker. There are also other options for remotely controlling a Mac but with Salling Clicker, you can control DVDs, iTunes, and any scriptable apps from your phone/PDA. No mouse or keyboard necessary......


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## rhythms (Sep 24, 2003)

*a pro use*

Hi guys,

good discussion, good points all around.

A possible pro music use was suggested to me yesterday: Logic Pro 7 network.

The latest version of Logic Pro (Apple's music app) allows you to hook up multiple computers on the network to use their processing power to process audio and virtual instruments.

Macaholic? What do you think?


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

used to be jwoodget said:



> No remote? If you've a BlueTooth phone or PDA...


No, the point was he said that Apple never shipped a CPU with a remote control included. In which, we've responded there are at least three units that have indeed shipped with remotes.

BTW, IF I hooked up the mac mini to a DVI-equipped home theatre monitor (lets say a Samsung RPTV or a HDTV plasma that does 1080p), what is the resolution of the DVD player software? Does it automatically upconvert to the resolution of the monitor? Or will it be 480i and the monitor will have to upconvert?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

gmark2000 said:


> No, the point was he said that Apple never shipped a CPU with a remote control included. In which, we've responded there are at least three units that have indeed shipped with remotes.


My point is that all current Macs with a BT dongle or built-in BT can be remotely controlled.



gmark2000 said:


> BTW, IF I hooked up the mac mini to a DVI-equipped home theatre monitor (lets say a Samsung RPTV or a HDTV plasma that does 1080p), what is the resolution of the DVD player software? Does it automatically upconvert to the resolution of the monitor? Or will it be 480i and the monitor will have to upconvert?


I think this depends on the video card in the computer rather than the software - although I couldn't find the actual stats anywhere. DVI supports UXGA (1600x1200) and 720p and 1080i but my guess is that you'd need at least a 64 Mb card for those resolutions (not counting up-conversion).


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

> How easy is a EyeTV to use? if it is to complicated then she may not use it.


I'd google it first, I know that there are still some bugs with this in OSX,
I just can't remember where I read it, Better to buy an LCD monitor with a T.V. tuner than to put
up with any possible frustrations with eyeTV down the road.

Dave


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The one bundle we are looking at has remote control with the TV/Monitor and as pointed out there are a number of routes to go with BT.

Convergence is coming - it's the automotive apps for the mini that may arise first. 12 volt powersupply eh.  

It's the heart of many unique uses - I WOULD have liked 1 inch taller and one more RAM slot.

BTW there were more newsfeeds on Apple ( aggregate on Google ) today than on the tsunami. :yikes: 

( a staff member is doing a Globe article and noticed ).  

For the hook up to HDTV ask the Q at http://digitalhomecanada.com/forum/index.php

I've been tempted to move the 5085 close enough to try a 50" DLP as a Mac screen. :heybaby:


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

used to be jwoodget said:


> I think this depends on the video card in the computer rather than the software - although I couldn't find the actual stats anywhere. DVI supports UXGA (1600x1200) and 720p and 1080i but my guess is that you'd need at least a 64 Mb card for those resolutions (not counting up-conversion).


I just read somewhere that commercial DVDs (MPEG2) have 480p resolution. So if I fire up a Mac mini to a plasma there might be pixelation of the movie. How does a DVD movie look on a 23/30 inch Apple Cinema Display??


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## BobbyFett (Jan 12, 2005)

I just ordered my mini.

I got a superdrive, 512mb and Airport in it.

Wish I'd done it yesterday, the shipping date just shifted two weeks to the 14th Feb. Gah!


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## stargurl (Oct 27, 2004)

I ordered yesterday and I'm also kicking myself for waiting!

This will be the first time I've used a Mac since 2001!


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## BobbyFett (Jan 12, 2005)

I can't wait! Aside from what I've worked on AT work (ie G4 Powermac), my only other domestic mac was my iBook 600, which I bought in Spring 2002. Just opening the thing was a pleasure.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Hey guys.

Been away all day. All I will say further to the Mac Media Center thing is that OBVIOUSLY _I know_ that there are several ways for a savvy mac user to kludge together a Mac Media Center. What I have consistently been talking about is what _The Mothership_ has been doing about it. In this Neo-Jobs era, the efforts on THEIR PART have been really nil. I don't care what Apple did before he came back, an neither does Jobs. 20th Anniversary Macs, Mac TV etc. were forward-thinking devices, but pale in comparison of what's being attempted in this day and age. Not to take away from those early attempts, but it IS a different age than those times.


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## Urban_Legend (May 29, 2003)

Macaholic,

I think we need to look at what the definition of a Mac Media Centre would be to us Mac users?

What does a Mac Media Centre have? What sort of technology or advances or ease of use would it bring us Mac users what we can't already do with our Macs now? Take a look at the G5 towers, then the portables and of course the mini, what is it that would make a Mac Media Centre blow right out of Cupertino and be revolutionary and sell like the iPod? 

Microsoft's Media Centre Windows XP version is like what we call iLife Suite, Final Cut Pro perhaps, however FCP is over the edge. I forgot to mention also we have .Mac and iDisk technology along with iSync. That is more powerful then Microsoft's Media Centre. Wow, now Windows users can burn movies to a DVD with ease. Welcome to us Mac users, PC users. That is what I am getting at, the MS Media Centre is what we Mac users have been enjoying for years. It's called integration of suites and ease of use.

Sure they have the TV side built into it, but who really cares about that option? There are 3rd party apps that we could use for the time being. 

The point is, we need to look at what Microsoft has done with the Media Centre, go take a look at their web site. Then look at us Mac users as a whole and decide where we stand against the MS Media Centre. Are we behind? Ahead? The same with regards to technology and how we can organize our photos? burn our photos to CD and DVD? Make slide shows of photos? All that is being hyped on with regards to MS Media Centre. The same goes with videos. We can do the same with wireless and a network of Macs in our homes, instead of a bunch of networked Media Centers from Microsoft.

The Media Centre from Microsoft is about integration of apps and how easy it is to do things. I say, we have been doing that for quite some time and I don't see a difference except for the TV thing.

So, please lets talk about what breakthrough, or advanced technology could Apple produce that is beyond what we use now? and is beyond Microsoft's all in one integration of apps called the Media Centre? Once Apple has figured that out, then we will see something on the horizon.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Personally, I think this little monster is going to sell like iPods. We are going to see all sorts of fence sitters take the cheap plunge into the Mac world via the mini. They'll love the OS and tell others. Just like all the rest of us do. Millions of new Mac converts will make software cheaper and more available for all the rest of us. It's a big win-win all around, as far as I'm concerned. Our favorite computer company is on a serious roll these days.

No wonder Apple stock is going through the roof.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

As I mentioned in my first post, Urban Legend, Apple's tack on "Media Center" is diffferent than Microsoft's. Trust me when I say I know of Apple's excellent integration acorss apps and the web; it's the major bragging point I use when telling people about iLife. But iLife is all about creating your own media.

These two companies are CURRENTLY definitely going in different directions. Apple is more geared towards YOU creating media; MS is geared towards consuming mass media. MS is going after TiVo functionality, andd then dumping it onto your cel phone. I'm not even going to go into whether watching a TV show on a cel phone is a good idea or not; I'm only trying to ilustrate that MS is trying for a FULL suite of media consumptoin solutions. Yes, there is also a little bit of creation functionality built into Media Center, as there is media consumption built into Apple's overall offerings (yes, I knoww about iTunes on motorola cel phones). The EXTENT of these, however, hints at where these two company's heads are at, and they're different.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

It's not exactly the PlayStation/Mac that I had hoped to see and it may be a disappointment for some that think it is.
Maybe Apple should have taken a more entertainment style approach and gone the full nine
yards with the Mac Mini, It couldn't have hurt to add an extra capability to this thing, Might
have even been neat to play some hybrid Mac/Sony games on your T.V. with this thing.

Oh well... 



Dave


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2002)

Here's a link that has some pretty good reasons why a Mini is an attractive machine.
http://homepage.mac.com/metroxing/iblog/B1641024610/index.html 

I think they're right on the mark. The mini is at the price point the cube should have been. I can't see how this won't be a winner since even I am seriously considering one (I've only ever purchased used computers, PC or Mac).

I won't be jumping in right away however. I think it would be wise to wait till Tiger is released (so I don't have to buy an OS upgrade in a few months). I'd also like to wait till the second generation comes out so they have time to work out the initial bugs. Later this year seems the right time to make the jump.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Further to this conceit that _Apple_ *IS* doing media center stuff (which I obviously don't agree with), here are fresh comments from Jobs that shows that _he too_ knows they're not doing media center functionality... for the time being:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/17/technology/17apple.html?oref=login

Quotes:

_" if Mr. Jobs is thinking about a future role for the quirky computer maker in entertainment beyond digital music, he is holding his cards very close to his chest."_

Hmm... sounds like we're NOT in the media center frame of mind at this time.

_"That did not stop speculation that, with a minimum of modification, the Mac Mini would make a compelling interactive television set-top box, placing Apple squarely in competition with TiVo and Windows Media Center from Microsoft."_

LOL! I'll say!

_"In an interview after his presentation, Mr. Jobs demurred. The problem, he suggested, was not that Mac TV was not a good idea, but that the cable companies are monopolies. But he did not close the door entirely."_

Great!  Cause for hope -- and I too am hoping. But iLife/DVD Player/.Mac/EyeTV/WHATEVER aint mass media consumption a la Media Center/TiVO. Yes, WE can cobble it all together, and iLife is without peer for CREATING your own media, but Apple aint waving its magic wand over the Mac Mini to make the TiVo killer just yet...


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Urban Legend, without getting into who can execute better (we all know Apple can), the exact point is what Apple and Microsoft are putting the big push on. Although you can buy and network music playback and watch your DVDs and a paltry few Quicktime channels on a TV hooked up to your Mac that's NOTHING compared with where MS is trying to go. Can you program your Media Center Mac to record a show from your cel phone while away from the house? No. That's not because Apple tried and failed; it's because _Apple hasn't tried yet at all_. OTOH, you cannot create and share your own media as well with Media Center as you can with iLife.

LOOK at Apple's own iLife slogan:










It says YOUR LIFE; nothing about watching anybody else's "Surreal Life". 

READ iLife's opening pitch:

_"Take photos? Shoot video? Make or listen to music? Even if you’ve never considered yourself a creative person, iLife ’05 — a suite of tightly integrated applications that places no limit on your talent or creativity — makes it easy and fun to learn new skills.?_

It doesn't say:

_"Watch TV? Watch A LOT of TV? Hate missing your favorite shows when you have to -- UGH! -- *work?* Even if you're the busiest of tube fanatics, you'll never miss a Star Trek: Enterprise again with Apple's Get an iLife!"_


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## Ian Seyler (Nov 15, 2002)

I just ordered my Mac Mini on the weekend.

1.25GHz G4
512Meg RAM
80Gig HD
Wireless (Airport Extreme & Bluetooth)

I expect to get it sometime in February.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Maybe Apple should buy TiVo and have everyone guessing. Not sure about the Linux thing though.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

That thought about TiVO crossed my mind too, Gmark


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

It'll be interesting to see the MacCentral (MacWorld) or other reputable sites real world test of it,
In the meantime all we can do is countdown the days until it shows up in the showrooms.

MacCentral, Mac Mini: What you need to know 

(Keeping the Mac Mini thread alive)

Dave


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## yatko (Oct 9, 2004)

Macaholic said:


> Urban Legend, without getting into who can execute better (we all know Apple can), the exact point is what Apple and Microsoft are putting the big push on. Although you can buy and network music playback and watch your DVDs and a paltry few Quicktime channels on a TV hooked up to your Mac that's NOTHING compared with where MS is trying to go. Can you program your Media Center Mac to record a show from your cel phone while away from the house? No. That's not because Apple tried and failed; it's because _Apple hasn't tried yet at all_. OTOH, you cannot create and share your own media as well with Media Center as you can with iLife.
> 
> LOOK at Apple's own iLife slogan:
> 
> ...


Wow. Such dedication to a corny marketing slogan.


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## ssadams (Jan 17, 2005)

I ordered a mac mini. Im not expecting mericles, but since i have a monitor, kb and mouse, its a good deal. im just interested in the OS


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## ramopara (Apr 6, 2004)

Hello, 

Does anyone know if a Mac Mini Superdrive (4x) can be replaced by a 16x bought off the shelf at any computer store. If so, which model?


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## retrocactus (Jun 17, 2003)

Given the form factor, I'd guess that the superdrive isn't an off the shelf 5.25" optical drive but is actually the laptop sized optical drive in which case you wouldn't be able to get it at any computer store....they do have those powerbook/ibook drive upgrades though so you never know. 

I doubt you'd be able to go to Future Shop and get an upgrade though.

Time will tell once we get them in our hands.


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## KardnalForgotHisPassword (Oct 14, 2004)

Macaholic said:


> Quotes:
> 
> _" if Mr. Jobs is thinking about a future role for the quirky computer maker in entertainment beyond digital music, he is holding his cards very close to his chest."_
> 
> Hmm... sounds like we're NOT in the media center frame of mind at this time.


And that's where I call shinanigans. 

Jobs says a whole lot of stuff. What he means or believes is something else entirely.

The thing about Jobs is this: He's a true showman. Anyone who's seen him speak can attest to that. Magician's are great showman too, and not because they can break all kinds of rules of physics. It's because they know the power slight-of-hand.

Jobs' ability to pull a magical product out of a hat and wow everyone, is 50% Apple's Engineering ability, and 50% Jobs' ability to keep everyone else off the track long enough that Apple can get a good head start on them.


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## Turbobob (Oct 27, 2003)

*Mac Mini dual processor?*

I'd like to see if the macmini can be used as a part of a dual processor system. I would like to perform Live with Audio from my Powerbook and designate the mini processor to video. If anyone knows how or if it is even possible please send me an email, I'll get ya tickets for the show! Thanx again for a great resource everyone
Turbobob
drumattic.net :


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

KardnalForgotHisPassword, we're not talking about the future. We're talking about the past and how that past results in the COMMERCIALLY RELEASED Apple products and what their focus is. Hey, I hope to hell that Apple does a home entertainment solution, too!! But AGAIN my point is that there is little to no focus in that direction from Apple's products at this current time. Guesses as to the future are irrelevant to my point.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Anyone know of, or looked into some good/nice KVM switches that would be good for a Mac mini? Any ones with DVI?


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## stargurl (Oct 27, 2004)

I've started looking around for KVMs but haven't really decided on anything yet. The Belkin SOHO series certainly looks nice but carries a high price tag. I'm looking for something cheaper, no front-runner yet.


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## Ottawaman (Jan 16, 2005)

Are there any special requirements for a kvm to be mac/pc compatable?


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

Iogear MiniView Micro USB KVM Switch 



> MiniView Micro 2-port USB KVM w/ built-in cables - GCS52U*
> 
> Requirements
> 
> ...



Seen here at TigerDirect.ca 

USB keyboard and mouse would be nicer though.


Dave


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

That IOGear looks nice but the PS/2 keyboard and mouse connections aren't useful.

Hmmm, looks like there's a whole new industry for Mac-friendly USB KVM switches...

I'm waiting for the zero footprint firewire drives to come out...


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

I've been using a Startech USB KVM for quite some time now. Works great, I switch a keyboard, mouse, Powermate and Soundsticks between two Macs and two PC's.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

_I'm waiting for the zero footprint firewire drives to come out_

You mean to sit underneath the mini?? Not good value and the 3.5s would not fit.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

I think this is the one to get:

Iogear 2 Port MiniView Micro USB KVM Switch with Audio and Built-in Cable
http://iogear.com/main.php?loc=product&Item=GCS632U 








TigerDirect.ca Link $74.99

It supports keyboard switching from the Mac.

So it's much better looking than the old school switches:


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## retrocactus (Jun 17, 2003)

gmark2000: I've had that kvm switch and it seemed to work fine with my Powerbook but not my PC....something to do with the motherboard (while not bleeding edge, it was pretty new) and it wouldn't respond to requests to switch when in PC mode. 

I ended up 'settling' for the old school switch box you linked but even with a new box and cables, the quality degradation isn't worth it....

I've been searching for a KVM that would work across platform and always encountered one problem or another....either the PC side would work or the Mac side would but never both at the same time. Very frustrating.


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## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

Disk performance is similar to the iBook, no surprise.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to boot the Mac Mini from a firewire drive for performance, and just use the internal drive as a backup?
I guess it would only work if you didn't need the firewire port for anything else, but that's possible since it has USB 2.0.
A 7200rpm 120GB firewire drive is under $200 these days.
You could hide the drive away in a cupboard and really make the Mini quiet!


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

The silverlining of these Mac's is that when they fail (If they fail, eg: Logic board?)
they'll be easy enough to cannibalize and sell the parts or use them elsewhere.

I'm wondering now if the hard drive and/or the Superdrive will work in a laptop.

Dave


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Does anyone know if the Harman/Kardon Soundsticks I (USB) would work with the mini??


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

> Does anyone know if the Harman/Kardon Soundsticks I (USB) would work with the mini??


Why wouldn't they? Yes, they do.


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## PurpleConeFlower (Sep 21, 2009)

*Mac Mini 1.33 for $425 and I'm smiling from ear to ear*



•MACMAN• said:


> So just a little bit of a gripe.
> 
> The Mac Mini looks like a good deal to lure in new users... BUT... when you do the math it's really not that great of a deal.
> 
> ...


I have a used Mac mini PowerMac10,2 PowerPC G4 (1.5) 1.33 GHz L2 Cache 512 KB Memory: 1 GB, 148 Gig ATA drive, 167 MHz that my son's kajukenbo master had purchased new a few eons ago and after taking good care of it he it replaced with a new Mac he paid 1000's for and he let us have it for $125. I added a 1 terabyte MyBook for (I think) $150 and an external DVD writer which was about $150 and I plugged it into my existing flat screen and logitech mouse from my PC and an Apple USB keyboard I'd found at a garage sale for $0 which also has two extra USB hubs. Total cost $425 and it is not super fast but otherwise it works perfectly and I'm _VERY _happy... (no more reconfiguring my pc because of viruses etc...) the nightmare is over! 




































.............................................................


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Great deal for $125!



PurpleConeFlower said:


> I have a used Mac mini PowerMac10,2 PowerPC G4 (1.5) 1.33 GHz L2 Cache 512 KB Memory: 1 GB, 148 Gig ATA drive, 167 MHz that my son's kajukenbo master had purchased new a few eons ago and after taking good care of it he it replaced with a new Mac he paid 1000's for and he let us have it for $125. I added a 1 terabyte MyBook for (I think) $150 and an external DVD writer which was about $150 and I plugged it into my existing flat screen and logitech mouse from my PC and an Apple USB keyboard I'd found at a garage sale for $0 which also has two extra USB hubs. Total cost $425 and it is not super fast but otherwise it works perfectly and I'm _VERY _happy... (no more reconfiguring my pc because of viruses etc...) the nightmare is over!
> .............................................................


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Why do people resurrect 4 year old threads?


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## PurpleConeFlower (Sep 21, 2009)

ignorance


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