# Do you know your times tables?



## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Some canned goods were on sale at Sobey’s today. The price was good so I picked up a whole case worth of one product.

At the check-out counter the 19-20 year old asked how many cans were in the case. Surprised that she couldn’t figure it out herself in a second, I replied, “Let’s see, 3 times 6” as I ran my finger down one side, then the other.

She keeps looking at me, waiting for me to continue. I assumed I didn’t need to and resumed loading up my groceries.

“So… 21?” she finishes for me.

“Uhhh, no… 18.” I say, watching her face to see if she is kidding. She is not. In fact she squints her eyes in doubt. 

“3 times 6 is 18” I confirm, for assurance. 

She purses her lips.

“6 plus 6 is 12...plus another 6 is 18, right?” I reiterate, laying my hand on each row of six as I say this.

What did she do next? You guessed it. She counted each one with her finger. 

Yup, 18.

Holy multiplication failure! How can these kids make it through junior high math let alone high school math without knowing their basic times tables?? I was never a math whiz but at least I knew the basics.

Do math teachers test for basic skill competency at all levels? If not, maybe they should. Perhaps the trouble a struggling student is having is due to the lack of a fundamental skill? 

I think I’ll run the resident teen through her times tables when she gets home from school today……this has me both alarmed and intrigued.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

KC, my son goes to one of the Toronto schools that scores well in provincial competency tests. Learning times tables by rote is not part of the current requirement--it's up to me to make sure that happens.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I had to have extra help to learn times tables by rote in school. 

It wasn't part of the curriculum, but I had a middle-school math teacher that used to give us drills on quickly estimating things--that was among the most useful things I'd learned in math that year.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

The only thing I remember is that when multiplying by 9, the digits in the answer add up to 9. Why yes, I have a degree in the liberal arts.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

We had to memorize the multiplication tables frontwards and backwards. We were pushed with the warnings that "Russian school children are doing this, and they have the bomb!!!!". After math, we would do air raid drills, and "drop, tuck and cover". The fact that where I lived in New York City was in the first strike zone, and would be dust, was not what worried me for some reason. The fact that I was hiding under a wooden desk when the fireball hit worried me, since it would be kindling. 

I was a product of the old math, as opposed to the new math, as opposed to today's new new math. We did "gozinters", "summerwitches" and "eagles" in school and at home. To this day, I can do my income tax without a calculator and still get it totally correct.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Memorizing the times tables were a fundamental part of early elementary school and serve me well to this day.

As far as I am concerned, they still should be a mandatory part of the curriculum. The number of young people who cannot count, never mind add, multiply etc., is appalling and is a sad reflection of a school system that failed them.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Macfury said:


> KC, my son goes to one of the Toronto schools that scores well in provincial competency tests. Learning times tables by rote is not part of the current requirement--it's up to me to make sure that happens.


I agree Macfury. It's up to the parent(s) to reinforce this type of learning at home. This was done (ad nauseum) when my daughter was in grade school. Perhaps it bears repeating in middle school and again in high school.

She made it safely past the Multiplication Monster Mom at the door today. One never knows though when it may strike again. Mwaaahahahahaaa.

One would think Math teachers could spot the lack of fundamental skills, especially when teaching the higher math curriculums. Maybe this the result of an over-reliance on calculators?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

They don't allow calculators in elementary school here, but they don't expect a knowledge of the multiplication table either. My understanding is that post-secondary schools have a devil of a time teaching remedial math at the elementary school level.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

KC4 said:


> I agree Macfury. It's up to the parent(s) to reinforce this type of learning at home. This was done (ad nauseum) when my daughter was in grade school. Perhaps it bears repeating in middle school and again in high school.
> 
> She made it safely past the Multiplication Monster Mom at the door today. One never knows though when it may strike again. Mwaaahahahahaaa.
> 
> One would think Math teachers could spot the lack of fundamental skills, especially when teaching the higher math curriculums. Maybe this the result of an over-reliance on calculators?


I keep telling my students that your assessments of strength and needs should guide your instruction. Granted, this is in literacy, but I feel the same should hold true in math. "Mental math" is coming back into the curriculum of some schools here in NL. Not sure if they will call this the "old new new math" or not. It was so much easier dealing with the mathematical concepts of "gozinters", "summerwitches" and "eagles".


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> We had to memorize the multiplication tables frontwards and backwards. .


Same here, although there are days I have to think real hard to remember the odd combination. :lmao:


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

kps said:


> Same here, although there are days I have to think real hard to remember the odd combination. :lmao:


Same here, but I think that this comes with age. My son got upset with me when I had him do the whole routine of "gozinters", "summerwitches" and "eagles". Still, he was able to get grades of "A" in high school math.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

While I am starting to see the value in having memorized the times tables up to 12x12, I certainly can see why the inability of current students to preform these sorts of rote tasks is the least of our problems.

I deal with second, third and fourth year science students who can't construct a grammatically correct english sentence. And worse, they can't comprehend why I might see this as a problem. If they need to turn to their calculators to do basic arithmetic, that's bad enough, but the fact is that they cannot then express the meaning of their answer in a coherent sentence, nor can they recognize when their answers are nonsensical (e.g. "the functional groups are -18.4 nanometers squared apart") is what really disturbs me.

I teach biochemistry, and my students often object that "this is not English, so grammar shouldn't count." My reply is that if you cannot express your answer in a way that is clear and unequivocal in its meaning, your answer is effectively wrong.

I used to write on exams things like "This sentence no verb", but no one got the joke, so I gave up.

With the number of students I have to deal with (without teaching assistants or other support), there is no way I can evaluate significant written answers on tests or assignments, but I'm trying to find ways to require both mathematical and writing skills be demonstrated in all my courses.

It both appals and baffles me that our students are not only permitted to graduate high school while so demonstrably lacking these basic skills, but many of them are graduating with outstanding grades, and yet clearly unable to preform even the most basic arithmetic operations or express themselves in written or spoken english.

While the obviously desirable solution is to improve instruction at the high-school level, in the short term, I really think schools have to start failing/holding back a lot of students until they can demonstrate mastery of these basic skills.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> in the short term, I really think schools have to start failing/holding back a lot of students until they can demonstrate mastery of these basic skills.


Bingo! But they won't or they'll be sued by angry parents. They're all superlative! It's mathematically impossible for everyone to be above average--but they all are!

Education is now "outcome based"--a passing grade for all and kudos for showing up some of the time!


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## Aurora (Sep 25, 2001)

Try dealing with a young retail clerk when the bill comes to $5.37 and you give them a ten dollar bill plus 37 cents and watch the confusion in their eyes.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

My concern is that, having accepted them into university (and having taken their money for tuition), and passed them in their first year courses (which are all evaluated multiple-choice based exams), we have effectively taken some moral responsibility for their ability to complete a degree.

Perhaps I'm still naive and idealistic, but when I'm failing substantial populations of my students in second year biochemistry because they can't manage to calculate a ratio, don't know what a logarithm is, have no clue what pH means (despite having passed 4 intro chemistry courses that are prerequisite for my course), and can't construct a sentence that I can interpret (hell, to be honest, I can't even figure out what letters the marks they make on the paper are supposed to be much of the time), I feel like we've betrayed a trust, and ought to have to refund their tuition.

But not only do these kids (and their parents) think they're entitled to a degree if they show up to class now-and-then, they (and their parents) come down on me (and the department chair, and the dean) like a ton of bricks when they don't get A's because they're goin' t' med-skool don'cha know, and any one who fails to recognize their brilliance is going to face the wrath of the helicopter parents and all their lawyers.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc: I feel for you on this. They should be turfed out gently, but that won't happen. 

I recall a student who was accidentally placed on a scholarship list despite her poor grades. When the parents saw that she had received a letter explaining the error, they demanded that the school give her a scholarship anyway. Unbelievable.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

> While the obviously desirable solution is to improve instruction at the high-school level, in the short term, I really think schools have to start failing/holding back a lot of students until they can demonstrate mastery of these basic skills.


My wife works at a local high school and she's sickened and appalled at what's going on with the students. Teachers there aren't allowed to fail or punish students so they let them slide though life learning nothing about responsibility so it doesn't surprise me what so ever to hear they're also not doing well in post secondary.

All that said wasn't it Einstein that said never let school get in the way of your education? I have two young girls and we fully intend to make sure they're well educated no matter what they learn in school along the way.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"I teach biochemistry, and my students often object that "this is not English, so grammar shouldn't count." My reply is that if you cannot express your answer in a way that is clear and unequivocal in its meaning, your answer is effectively wrong." Amen, brother.

I have been teaching either pre-service or practicing teachers literacy methodology courses for my 33 years here at Memrorial University. Now, teaching web courses since 1997, I am exposed to undergrad and grad students from all provinces here in Canada. When I was a high school teacher, I did not have the constraints that Andrew Pratt's wife faces when he wrote that "Teachers there aren't allowed to fail or punish students so they let them slide though life learning nothing about responsibility so it doesn't surprise me what so ever to hear they're also not doing well in post secondary." Still, many of my students who are teaching across the country from grades 7-12 are facing these very same situations.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Aurora said:


> Try dealing with a young retail clerk when the bill comes to $5.37 and you give them a ten dollar bill plus 37 cents and watch the confusion in their eyes.


I was going to mention that one as well. Even more terrifying if you give them $11.10 when the bill is $6.05. Don't know why that should be confusing but apparently it is.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

eMacMan said:


> I was going to mention that one as well. Even more terrifying if you give them $11.10 when the bill is $6.05. Don't know why that should be confusing but apparently it is.


This is becoming an increasingly moot point as most cashiers these days, minus a few businesses still, have a machine in which you can input the amount given to them by the customer and it will tell you what change is required. No thinking, math skills, or really any skills at all required. It saves times, and more importantly prevents mistakes made by your own calculations in your head no matter how basic and easy the equation.

I'm also curious to know that if a cashier looks stumped when you give them extra cents to round it off to an even dollar, if the cashier is confused by the math, or just simply doesn't understand why you're giving them the extra cents in the first place - believe it or not, it could very well be the latter, especially if you hand them a bill, and then a minute later go, "Oh, I have 37 cents, just a second." (Particularly young people, first-time cashiers.)

And then, some people flat-out have a genuine difficulty with math regardless of really anything - no one's perfect, and it truly isn't the end of the world, or your problem.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Lars said:


> This is becoming an increasingly moot point as most cashiers these days, minus a few businesses still, have a machine in which you can input the amount given to them by the customer and it will tell you what change is required. No thinking, math skills, or really any skills at all required. It saves times, and more importantly prevents mistakes made by your own calculations in your head no matter how basic and easy the equation.
> 
> I'm also curious to know that if a cashier looks stumped when you give them extra cents to round it off to an even dollar, if the cashier is confused by the math, or just simply doesn't understand why you're giving them the extra cents in the first place - believe it or not, it could very well be the latter, especially if you hand them a bill, and then a minute later go, "Oh, I have 37 cents, just a second." (Particularly young people, first-time cashiers.)
> 
> And then, some people flat-out have a genuine difficulty with math regardless of really anything - no one's perfect, and it truly isn't the end of the world, or your problem.


Actually this was despite the register that does the calculations for them. Just total confusion if you give them any thing but a straight bill. Been at least one occasion when I gave some one a twenty to pay a total of about $10 and had the cashier incorrectly enter $40 and try to give me $30 in change.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

In Alberta knowledge of your multiplication tables is in the curriculum. Starting in grade 3 students must know up to 5x5 and up to 9x9 by grade 5.

In addition, a teacher cannot fail a child. The teacher may recommend for failure but the parents must agree. If they don't, the child is moved ahead anyway despite not having passed the grade level requirements. 

This is called denial and leads to a whole host of issues later on for student, teachers, parents, university professors, employers, _et al_ by creating grade 12 graduates who do not possess basic math and language skills.

Said denial should be dealt with swiftly by bringing said parents to class to deal with said student's lack of accomplishment so that said teacher is not frittering away precious time teaching grade 3 math to someone who is in grade 8.

(edit) Yes, I do know my times tables up to 16x16 as well as a number of other combinations up to x24. In another life I worked in a warehouse as a shipper/receiver and it just helped to be able to look at a 14 block and know that 5 layers = 70 cases (one pallet of Classico spaghetti sauce).


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Lars said:


> I'm also curious to know that if a cashier looks stumped when you give them extra cents to round it off to an even dollar, if the cashier is confused by the math, or just simply doesn't understand why you're giving them the extra cents in the first place - believe it or not, it could very well be the latter, especially if you hand them a bill, and then a minute later go, "Oh, I have 37 cents, just a second." (Particularly young people, first-time cashiers.)


I suspect they're confused by both. They certainly don't see an advantage between handing back a Loonie or 97 cents in change. But yes, the younger they are, the less they know about math.

I remember once seeing a cashier who, worried they would run out of change, was offering up all of the lowest denomination coins first--I assume because they had more nickels and pennies than dimes and quarters.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

chasMac said:


> The only thing I remember is that when multiplying by 9, the digits in the answer add up to 9. Why yes, I have a degree in the liberal arts.


Nine is SUCH a cool number. Not only do they add up to 9, but for multiples of nine up to 9 x 10, it is a fun thing - the first digit in the two digit answer goes up one, while the second digit goes down one.

so
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9

and

9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0

put 'em together and you get

09
18
27
36
45
54
63
72
81
90

(and the simplest way to remember multiples of nine is just multiply the number by 10 and then minus that number from the sum - so for 6 x 9 = (6 x 10) - 6)

Umm ... okay, I'm a numbers geek. I spend far too much time while I'm driving figuring out the next prime number to come up on my odometer. 

And yes, I do know my multiplication tables, although I have mental shortcuts that make even doing large numbers very simple. It's also useful for doing conversions from metric to imperial, and knowing how much you're actually paying for something in a foreign currency.

(My daughter also knows how to multiply, but it's just one of those natural things - we didn't have to use flashcards or memorize or anything like that. Numbers just make sense - a two doesn't wake up one morning and decide "I think I'll be a three today", so it's way easier than dealing with _people_.  )


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Someday I may teach you the secret number patterns in a Sudoku puzzle. Patience required.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

MLeh said:


> Nine is SUCH a cool number. Not only do they add up to 9, but for multiples of nine up to 9 x 10, it is a fun thing - the first digit in the two digit answer goes up one, while the second digit goes down one.


That's very cool, MLeh. I'd never noticed that. I'm going to point it out to my son who's still a little wobbly on the 9x tables.



> the simplest way to remember multiples of nine is just multiply the number by 10 and then *minus* that number from the sum - so for 6 x 9 = (6 x 10) - 6)


Sorry to be pedantic, but this is one of my pet peeves (and it relates to the topic of otherwise bright people needing to work on their writing skills). 'Minus' can be a noun, adjective or preposition, but never a verb. Same with 'times'. I cringe whenever my students say (or write) that they "timesed" two number together to get some value. The verbs are 'subtracted' and 'multiplied'.

Cheers


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> I cringe whenever my students say (or write) that they "timesed" two number together to get some value. The verbs are 'subtracted' and 'multiplied'.


"Jethro, show Mr. Drysdale your ciphering...."


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

bryanc said:


> That's very cool, MLeh. I'd never noticed that. I'm going to point it out to my son who's still a little wobbly on the 9x tables.


Another cool fact: If you're doing accounting, totalling columns, and your columns aren't adding up, if the difference between the sums of the different columns is a multiple of nine, it means you've transposed two numbers in one of the columns. (ie if you wrote 96 instead of 69. 96 - 69 = 27. 27 is a multiple of 9.) The difference between any number subtracted from its transposed counterpart will always be a multiple of nine.

Not so relevant now-a-days with most people doing accounting on computers, but back when I kept a manual synoptic journal for my business, or when doing manual reconciliation of my bank statements, knowing this made it easier to find errors.



> Sorry to be pedantic, but this is one of my pet peeves (and it relates to the topic of otherwise bright people needing to work on their writing skills). 'Minus' can be a now, adjective or preposition, but never a verb. Same with 'times'. I cringe whenever my students say (or write) that they "timesed" two number together to get some value. The verbs are 'subtracted' and 'multiplied'.
> 
> Cheers


Hmm ... you're right - I should have used 'subtract' in that particular sentence construct. (I'd edited it a few times to make it make mathematical sense and missed that.) Although I could be pedantic in return (what's a 'now'?), but I won't.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Someday I may teach you the secret number patterns in a Sudoku puzzle. Patience required.


I am doing Sudoku puzzles right now, not because I have difficulty completing them, but because I want to finish all of them without guessing. I recognize that there are certain patterns there, and I can accurately predict some of the numbers I know will fill the squares but I need to know exactly why this is mathematically ironclad.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

MLeh said:


> what's a 'now'?


Gah! Typo. Fixed.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Sorry to be pedantic, but this is one of my pet peeves (and it relates to the topic of otherwise bright people needing to work on their writing skills). 'Minus' can be a now, adjective or preposition, but never a verb. Same with 'times'. I cringe whenever my students say (or write) that they "timesed" two number together to get some value. The verbs are 'subtracted' and 'multiplied'." I hear you, bryanc. I try to demonstrate this concept in my literacy classes, especially to the elementary grade teachers-in-training, since word problems are first introducted in grades three and four. None of them were products of the old math, and did not have a clue about "gozinters", "summerwitches" and "eagles" until I demonstrated what these were all about, mathematically-speaking. Paix, mon ami.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> None of them were products of the old math, and did not have a clue about "gozinters", "summerwitches" and "eagles" until I demonstrated what these were all about, mathematically-speaking.


Okay, I'll bite. I've never heard of any of these either. I assume they're drills for improving numeracy of some sort? Care to elaborate?


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## Kazak (Jan 19, 2004)

.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

bryanc said:


> Okay, I'll bite. I've never heard of any of these either. I assume they're drills for improving numeracy of some sort? Care to elaborate?


Keep in mind that I was of the first generation of "baby boomers" attending New York City schools. In the primary grades, classes of 40+ students were not uncommon. Thus, we learned in rote and went row after row after row calling out these figures. The letter "g" was usually in the back of the second row of students, and, as my last name begins with the letter "g", this is what we heard when it came to math and "gozinters", "summerwitches" and "eagles"

"Two gozinter four twice ..... three gozinter nine three times".

"Four plus seven eagles eleven ............. nine plus four eagles thirteen."

"Six plus four the summerwitch is ten."

I recall a close friend of mine, David Rothman, being sent to the principal's office at the ripe old age of 7 when he said, "Three plus four the sunovabitch is seven." We never saw or heard from him again. XX)


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## SD-B (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm 51 tomorrow but not a parent but am shocked to hear kids aren't being taught to memorize the math tables. We had to do that when I was in school and i believe it is the ONLY reason I know them so well today. I, like most females in those days did not do well in math but I can certainly multiply and basic math without calculators as any one should be able to do.
A bit more complicated and yes, I do need a calculator but I don't fret about it but i was shocked to read one or two parents here saying these were not taught to kids today.

In fact, it isn't just teaching them that is important but repeating them daily, each and every day. Repetition is how one learns.

What is the reason given for students not being taught these today as we were in the late 60's and 70's


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

SD-B said:


> What is the reason given for students not being taught these today as we were in the late 60's and 70's


My impression is that these sorts of things are still 'taught' (if that's the operative word). The problem is that all students pass, regardless of how well or poorly they perform with respect to these, and any other item of the curriculum. It seems that the students who show up on a semi-regular basis get "A's" and everyone else gets "B's".

The problem persists at the University level, where administrators, fearing for lost tuition, take a dim view of faculty who fail significant numbers of students (especially in first and second year courses that are required for specific programs). So I'm trying to teach biochemistry to students who (with some exceptions), can't do basic arithmetic, don't know what pH means, have no idea about chemical bonds, and are completely baffled by exponents. Interestingly (to me), the exceptions (who do have these basic skills) seem to come largely from the francophone schools and from elsewhere in Canada or the rest of the world. So the most severe problems appear to be coming from the anglophone high schools in NB.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> "Two gozinter four twice ..... three gozinter nine three times".
> 
> "Four plus seven eagles eleven ............. nine plus four eagles thirteen."
> 
> "Six plus four the summerwitch is ten."


 Neverwoulda figgerd that oot on meown.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

An interesting perspective, bryanc. I have heard of this "non-failure" policy from other profs here at Memorial, and at other universities across Canada, especially in these pre-req early courses.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

bryanc said:


> Neverwoulda figgerd that oot on meown.


You would have to be there, bryanc, to appreciate what we heard in the back of the room. When the wind conditions were just right, and the front door open, we would get bits and pieces of info. I vividly recall the great debate those of us in the back of the room had when the word "Marsupial" came floating over our heads. All we knew was that it was science class and there was a picture of something at the front, which I could not see all that well with the waving of the hands of those in the front rows who were asking to be called upon with an answer pertaining to, I assumee, Marsupials.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc: My earlier reference was to the Beverly Hillbillies in which Jethro used to do "gazintas" to impress the people of Los Angeles. Even more quaint, he used to use the word "naught" for "zero"--hence his desire to be a "double naught spy" like James Bond.


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Bingo! But they won't or they'll be sued by angry parents. They're all superlative! It's mathematically impossible for everyone to be above average--but they all are!
> 
> Education is now "outcome based"--a passing grade for all and kudos for showing up some of the time!


You've hit the nail on the head. It makes me furious as a teacher to work in a system like this. Everything is now geared towards making things easy and entertaining for our "clients". It's so bad now that we're allowing students to walk across the stage at graduation even though they haven't really graduated -- just so they don't feel bad about being left behind. Call me crazy, but the symbolism of that is sickening.

Never underestimate the pressure your child's teacher is under to keep up those 99% pass rates. I wish the government would just get it over with and make it official: everyone shall pass high school! Everyone will graduate university by hook or crook. It would make my life easier if we could all stop pretending to have integrity as we tap dance around our inability to enforce any kind of standard without a brace of consultants, administrators, parents, bureaucrats and 'experts' of every stripe standing by to promote mediocrity.

Bah. I shouldn't care so much, but it I'm still idealistic enough to get mad about this issue.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Puccasaurus said:


> You've hit the nail on the head. It makes me furious as a teacher to work in a system like this. Everything is now geared towards making things easy and entertaining for our "clients". It's so bad now that we're allowing students to walk across the stage at graduation even though they haven't really graduated -- just so they don't feel bad about being left behind. Call me crazy, but the symbolism of that is sickening.


Puccasaurus: I first saw this attitude in an Ontario school in 1981. Students who had simply spent five years in school and had worn out their welcome received a "Certificate of Leaving" which was handed out with great ceremony alongside the real diplomas.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Puccasaurus said:


> You've hit the nail on the head. It makes me furious as a teacher to work in a system like this. Everything is now geared towards making things easy and entertaining for our "clients". It's so bad now that we're allowing students to walk across the stage at graduation even though they haven't really graduated -- just so they don't feel bad about being left behind. Call me crazy, but the symbolism of that is sickening.
> 
> Never underestimate the pressure your child's teacher is under to keep up those 99% pass rates. I wish the government would just get it over with and make it official: everyone shall pass high school! Everyone will graduate university by hook or crook. It would make my life easier if we could all stop pretending to have integrity as we tap dance around our inability to enforce any kind of standard without a brace of consultants, administrators, parents, bureaucrats and 'experts' of every stripe standing by to promote mediocrity.
> 
> Bah. I shouldn't care so much, but it I'm still idealistic enough to get mad about this issue.


I agree.
Then.....THEN when these kids get out in the real world and they aren't handed a free pass or paycheck for just showing up....they are so confused, so totally blown away and angry at the world because they know...*T**HEY K N O W* that they deserve it and have an entitlement to it.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Puccasaurus said:


> You've hit the nail on the head. It makes me furious as a teacher to work in a system like this. Everything is now geared towards making things easy and entertaining for our "clients". It's so bad now that we're allowing students to walk across the stage at graduation even though they haven't really graduated -- just so they don't feel bad about being left behind. Call me crazy, but the symbolism of that is sickening.
> 
> Never underestimate the pressure your child's teacher is under to keep up those 99% pass rates. I wish the government would just get it over with and make it official: everyone shall pass high school! Everyone will graduate university by hook or crook. It would make my life easier if we could all stop pretending to have integrity as we tap dance around our inability to enforce any kind of standard without a brace of consultants, administrators, parents, bureaucrats and 'experts' of every stripe standing by to promote mediocrity.
> 
> Bah. I shouldn't care so much, but it I'm still idealistic enough to get mad about this issue.


Good Lord, there *ARE* still teachers out there! Who'da thunk it? :clap::clap:


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

The Gozinters and Summerwitches were pretty self evident, but I did need help to cipher the "eagles = rednecked equals" bit.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

eMacMan said:


> The Gozinters and Summerwitches were pretty self evident, but I did need help to cipher the "eagles = rednecked equals" bit.


We did our "eagles" tables in unison. Mass confusion was heard when math pedagogy went from "two plus eight eagles ten" to "two and eight eagles ten". That was the start of the pre-new math ............. then came the new math ............. then the new new math .................. then to "estimation" (if you were close to the correct answer, that was fine, so long as the process was "accurate") ............ and now we are slowly moving back to "mental math", where you are able to do basic math in your head.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

One of the things that would've helped me deal with the rote memorization tasks as a kid would've been to understand that the process of memorizing something is like exercise for your brain. While in the case of the multiplication tables, or spelling, the actual facts are inherently useful, that's really beside the point. As is the case with weight lifting, the weights themselves aren't important, it's the exercise that has the value.

Wether you memorize the times tables, pi to 400 decimal places, or the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, it's the mental work-out of committing all that detail to memory that builds your intellectual capacity (not that rote memorization is essential to intellectual capacity, but it's part of the mental toolbox).

One of the things that many teachers really need to work on is explaining _why_ students need to do the work assigned. Often it seems very arbitrary and unrelated to the 'real world' and that makes it very difficult for most students to motivate themselves. Indeed, the apparent disconnect between coursework and the real world not only saps student motivation, it can be used as a justification to cheat ("it's all just a game anyway") or drop out.

Unfortunately, I strongly suspect many teachers have no idea themselves why the curriculum is structured the way it is, and, in many cases, the curriculum can't be justified because it hasn't been designed intelligently.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> One of the things that many teachers really need to work on is explaining _why_ students need to do the work assigned. Often it seems very arbitrary and unrelated to the 'real world' and that makes it very difficult for most students to motivate themselves. Indeed, the apparent disconnect between coursework and the real world not only saps student motivation, it can be used as a justification to cheat ("it's all just a game anyway") or drop out.


Which is why I believe that if you have to learn rote work anyway, it would be great to learn basic math and civics--two area that, once mastered, will hold a person in good stead for the rest of their lives.



bryanc said:


> Unfortunately, I strongly suspect many teachers have no idea themselves why the curriculum is structured the way it is, and, in many cases, the curriculum can't be justified because it hasn't been designed intelligently.


I once ran into my Grade 11 English teacher on the subway about 5 years after graduating high school. She had quit teaching and in a scathing 15 minute diatribe excoriated the Grade 11 English program she had taught as utter nonsense. Quite an eye opener.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Ah, bryanc, Coleridge's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" is brought back to memory. All I can recall is part of the first verse, and the ending which has the phrase "a sadder by wiser man". Never did understand "wherefore stopp'st thou me", since we did not talk that way in New York City.

"It is an ancient Mariner,
And he stoppeth one of three.
'By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp'st thou me?"


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

"And the wedding guest
He beat his breast
For he heard the loud bassoon"


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury, I can relate to your English teacher, having taught English and History at the high school level. Sadly, rote memorization of poetry, without understanding, is somewhat meaningless, just like memorizing facts in history. Comprehension is the key, at least in my opinion.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

bryanc said:


> One of the things that many teachers really need to work on is explaining _why_ students need to do the work assigned. Often it seems very arbitrary and unrelated to the 'real world' and that makes it very difficult for most students to motivate themselves. Indeed, the apparent disconnect between coursework and the real world not only saps student motivation, it can be used as a justification to cheat ("it's all just a game anyway") or drop out.
> 
> Unfortunately, I strongly suspect many teachers have no idea themselves why the curriculum is structured the way it is, and, in many cases, the curriculum can't be justified because it hasn't been designed intelligently.


Actually as we look at what is being taught, the purpose is quite evident during the early years. As the grades progress there is more and more material that is learned and lost. That is once the test is given the student never uses the material again. Prime example of the latter is memorizing "epic" poems. Certainly a rational explanation might motivate the more intelligent to put forth the extra effort in those cases. 

FWIW: Much to the surprise of my English teacher, I did manage to memorize all of "The Cremation of Sam Magee" but still have to meet someone several times before their name sticks in my head.


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## Womprat (Jul 14, 2005)

First hand experience:
We get 2-3 coop students a year from local high schools and Senecca @ York U.

Most of them do not know basic math skills. I usually have to spend a weeks time going over basic math, cartesian coordinates before I can even get into design basics with them. There have been several exceptions where the students have been "high achievers" and tutored at home, and 2 that had immigrated to Canada and had undergone primary education outside our school system.

It is worrisome, and I can only hope that I'm seeing a very limited cross-section of today's students.

-Mike


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Underperforming students can't be failed and, as my wife and I found out recently, underperforming teachers don't get fired.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> The teachers are lax, because they would have to pay more to have good teachers replace them. Glorified substandard babysitting service.
> 
> If you can, get your kids into a private school ASAP.


Teachers in private schools don't necessarily get paid more than those in public schools. The myth that teachers require higher salaries to teach Johnny to read has been promulgated by teachers.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> To this day, I can do my income tax without a calculator and still get it totally correct.


:clap::clap::clap:

I tried this twice, my math is pretty good but I was still off. Guess I forgot to add line 150, mutliply it twice sideways and subtract the square root of line 86. 

I am quite surprised multiplication tables weren't standard for all. I was in elementary school in the 80s and I learned them inside and out!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> The school board doesn't want failing students repeating grades due to lack of budget in these areas. If the teachers grade honestly, they get fired. Why bother doing the work of overlooking schoolwork and grading? The talented students don't seem to get a chance to shine either, as the schools, teachers, and students don't care. As the teachers don't want lose their jobs, they go along with it and lose incentive to teach properly.


Right--paying them more or increasing the school budget won't change that.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

A function of my job several years back resulted in my having to deal with educators from overseas (nothing to do with ESL) on a day to day basis. Chatting with them I heard over and over their surprise at the weight Canadian schools give to Shakespeare and poetry and fiction, etc. This, as opposed to the basics of grammar and writing technique and of course maths and the sciences. I can't help but think that their feelings were well placed and that these are the disciplines through which an individual might make their greatest contribution to society.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Macfury said:


> Teachers in private schools don't necessarily get paid more than those in public schools. The myth that teachers require higher salaries to teach Johnny to read has been promulgated by teachers.


True. Knowing both private and public school teachers in Houston, it was common for the public school teachers' salaries to be at least 25% higher than those of private school teachers. Some exceptions applied.

Part of the perks for a private school teacher is a better working environment. Half the class size of public schools, bigger budget for supplies and activities, better facilities, higher percentage of post secondary educated parents, higher campus security, etc etc....


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I simply don't believe that, Mazter. The school budget continues to rise and there were never any cutbacks here--just slight slowdowns in budget increases.


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

chasMac said:


> A function of my job several years back resulted in my having to deal with educators from overseas (nothing to do with ESL) on a day to day basis. Chatting with them I heard over and over their surprise at the weight Canadian schools give to Shakespeare and poetry and fiction, etc. This, as opposed to the basics of grammar and writing technique and of course maths and the sciences. I can't help but think that their feelings were well placed and that these are the disciplines through which an individual might make their greatest contribution to society.


It used to be that both were taught, either in the same course or in two separate courses (i.e. Literature and Composition). Now the geniuses at the helm decided some time ago that grammar and spelling are not to be taught and barely to be noticed in student writing. All that matters is how they can relate to the text. An important consideration to be sure, but worthless in the long run if they can't effectively express that relationship.

One of the most shocking moments of my professional life came when talking to an elementary teacher friend who said he is the only one who teaches spelling and grammar in his school. It certainly explained a lot of what I see in high school. At that stage it's often too late to make any deep changes to a student's grasp of language. They simply don't have the 'ear' for what sounds right and wrong anymore. And they don't care anyway because they've spent a decade or more in a system that doesn't care either. A system that tells teachers not to mark with red ink, lest it scar the children forever. 

The result? A generation of students who cannot write coherently at all, who often don't even know themselves what they meant to say, but who will nonetheless want an A because "You know what I mean. I tried so hard!".


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Better for the students too.
> 
> Better job satisfaction for the teacher, plus better community integration, less stress and more satisfaction.


Private school is not necessarily better for the student overall. It depends on the student and the situation. There are pros and cons to both private and public education. 


Not necessarily better job satisfaction for the teacher in private school either. Usually not better true community integration than public schools. 

My daughter in law teaches a huge class of teens in one of the most challenging school districts in town. She gets immense job satisfaction from knowing that she makes a huge difference in these kids' lives. She is absolutely an integral part of their community. 

Private school teachers don't necessarily have less stress, just different kinds of stress. Just because students are in private school, does not mean that they are smart, easy to teach or fast learners. Try flunking one that needs to be held back for a do-over after their lawyer mommies and daddies have paid a substantial tuition for little Johnny to be there.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

As a lover of history, I've always despaired of the Social Studies program in Canadian high schools. A good educator, usually one who is themselves passionate about history will always sneak some in, but generally the program is little more than a register of crimes, follies and misfortunes committed by Canada and the west against minorities and other nations. That surveys continue to demonstrate that Canadians know or care little for our history is hardly surprising - it is simply deemed not worthy of being taught.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

chasMac said:


> As a lover of history, I've always despaired of the Social Studies program in Canadian high schools. A good educator, usually one who is themselves passionate about history will always sneak some in, but generally the program is little more than a register of crimes, follies and misfortunes committed by Canada and the west against minorities and other nations. That surveys continue to demonstrate that Canadians know or care little for our history is hardly surprising - it is simply deemed not worthy of being taught.


Sad, but all too true for some schools. Still, the social studies curriculum, at least here in NL, is revamping this curriculum. 

I remember that when I became a Canadian citizen, I recalled some of the questions and gave them to my students, who were in training to be senior high social studies teachers. I received a 100% on my test, which consisted of 50 multiple choice questions .......... the best any of my students could achieve was a 40% from 10 of the questions I could remember.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

chasMac said:


> As a lover of history, I've always despaired of the Social Studies program in Canadian high schools. A good educator, usually one who is themselves passionate about history will always sneak some in, but generally the program is little more than a register of crimes, follies and misfortunes committed by Canada and the west against minorities and other nations. That surveys continue to demonstrate that Canadians know or care little for our history is hardly surprising - it is simply deemed not worthy of being taught.


Been over 4 decades, but what I most clearly remember about Social Studies classes is the feeling that the primary intent was to cure insomnia. One could never accuse the creators of that curriculum of exerting the slightest effort towards making their subject interesting. 

Sad to hear that things have not changed all that much.beejacon After reading some of Grant MacEwans books, it became obvious to me that Canada does indeed have a very interesting history and it can be presented in a fascinating way. However even today there is seemingly no interest whatsoever in presenting it in an interesting manner.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

Dr.G. said:


> Still, the social studies curriculum, at least here in NL, is revamping this curriculum.


Given the breadth of NL's history, that is good to know.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

When I taugth social studies, mainly history and geography, at the junior and senior high school level, I was told that I had the highest attendance percentage in the school for my classes. I might have had one student per class cut class. Still, this took a great deal of hard work on my part and convincing the principal to let me start teaching American history backwards. Thus, we started from the first day of school and worked out way backwards towards the US Civil War. Students understood the significance and consequences of the history that we were studying.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

Dr.G. said:


> When I taugth social studies, mainly history and geography, at the junior and senior high school level, I was told that I had the highest attendance percentage in the school for my classes. I might have had one student per class cut class. Still, this took a great deal of hard work on my part and convincing the principal to let me start teaching American history backwards. Thus, we started from the first day of school and worked out way backwards towards the US Civil War. Students understood the significance and consequences of the history that we were studying.


American history, even under the harsh light of the revisionists remains fascinating, and a teacher would have to try very hard to make it boring. It is fascinating to such a degree that clubs for Civil War buffs have their ranks swelled by international members. I believe there is even a club here in Alberta.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

The same can be undertaken with Canadian history. I showed my undergraduate students this by going back from the first day of class all the way back to July 1st, 1867. The relevancy of history is for each country, and for each person.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

Dr.G. said:


> The same can be undertaken with Canadian history. I showed my undergraduate students this by going back from the first day of class all the way back to July 1st, 1867. The relevancy of history is for each country, and for each person.


Agreed it can. And yet I do find that one generally becomes more invested emotionally in studying major conflicts that have occurred on one's own soil, of which the Americans have had at least three. (good or bad, war consistently serves as a topic that draws people to the study of history)


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

chasMac said:


> Given the breadth of NL's history, that is good to know.


What this curriculum is doing is to try and start from the community level and work outwards to show how the community is part of the province, the province is part of the country and the country is part of a world community. It makes sense to me.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

The resident teen was immersed in US and especially Texas history while attending school (grades 2 - 7) in Houston. Yes, it is fascinating, but it struck me (while following her studies) that comparatively speaking, I knew very little about my own country's history.

We immediately took steps to remedy that: First step:

Canada: A People's History: Merchandise Home

This excellent CBC produced TV series of Canada's history are told in dramatic fashion from the perspective of the people living it. Good family TV time fare.


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