# Great news for Toronto!



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

Very good news for Toronto was announced this morning, new airline service is begining at the Toronto Island Airport,



> Porter Airlines will be based at Toronto's City Centre (Island) Airport and will fly the 70-seat Q400 turboprop aircraft built by Bombardier Aerospace. The company has ordered ten of the aircraft and taken out options for an additional ten. The total contract is worth US$500 million.
> In a related decision, the Toronto Port Authority said it would build a new ferry passenger terminal and acquire a new ferry to improve access to the airport. Air Canada says it intends to boost its operations at Toronto City Centre, including more flights to and from Ottawa.
> Porter Airlines plans to offer short-haul flights to Canadian and U.S. cities with a 500-mile radius of Toronto. Destination cities and flight schedules will be announced at a later date.


http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/285319638411929.php

This is in conjunction with a greater expansion of the Toronto Island Airport that will begin later this year, this expansion includes a new ferry and ferry terminal that will allow passangers to go from the ferry to the terminal without having to go outside.

The airport expansion can be read about here in the environmental impact statement, the airport expansion will later include an all new terminal.

http://www.torontoport.com/EAforms/Nov4%20TPA%20EA%20Report%20-%20Final%20Draft.pdf

The new service by Porter Airlines will be opperated with the Bombardier Q400, the largest aircraft of its type, which can seat 70 passangers and fly 2200km at 667km/h.










This expansion was originally to be accomplished by the construction of a bridge, this $24 million dollar project was killed at a cost of $35 million dollars because of political bull**** on the part of the Toronto mayor who was ignorant of the implications of the project.

The new ferry that will serve the island was financed out of the $35 million dollar settlement.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I am not into this news at all. I hope Harper dismantles the infernal, interfering Port Authority and we kill this cross-purpose nonsense as soon as possible.


----------



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

Harper doesn't care. Neither does Queens Park. Miller is on his own.

He can chain himself to the bulldozer or something.


----------



## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

I don't follow municipal politics too closely, so someone enlighten me: didn't Miller campaign to block any expansion of the Island Airport?

The airport is right across the street from me, so I remember the endless discussion about the issue from neighbours.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Ottawa flights right into Toronto would be great for me. Although, I'm not sure you want Ottawa folks being given easy access to your fine city.

A good and affordable downtown airport can foster commercial services business if, for example, big U.S. cities can be reached.


----------



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

he campaigned against the bridge, and sucessfully blackmailed the federal government into footing the bill for the $35 million dollar out of court settlement that resulted from it.

He does not have the authority to prevent the expansion of the airport, he didn't have the authority to stop the bridge either. He was able to blackmail the liberal government to cooperate and foot the bill. 

The conservatives won't give him the time of day,


----------



## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Trevor... said:


> he campaigned against the bridge, and sucessfully blackmailed the federal government into footing the bill for the $35 million dollar out of court settlement that resulted from it.
> 
> He doesn't have the power to stop it.


He had the power to blackmail the federal gov't, but can't stop airport expansion?

What a strange world.

btw, I don't care either way about airport expansion.


----------



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

The Toronto Port Authority is a federal agency, not a civic one.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Maybe I'm a skeptic, but this looks to me as though RegCo (and TPA) is setting itself up to sue the city (again - except the first time the papers weren't served). While I have nothing against a new company trying to do business, this one just seems fishy. If the company is willing to imdemnify Toronto for any costs/losses associated with their business as long as the city does not act maliciously* to impede said business, then kudos to it.

*Miller will very probably be re-elected in November. It will be interesting to see if this becomes another election issue.


----------



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

I seriously doubt Miller will be re-elected, and if he is going to campaign on this in the midst of everything else going on in Toronto it won't even be close.


----------



## draz (Jun 13, 2005)

i love the island airport...who needs to leave the core now?


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Trevor... said:


> I seriously doubt Miller will be re-elected, and if he is going to campaign on this in the midst of everything else going on in Toronto it won't even be close.


We'll see - personally, I'd put his chances at 90%. BTW, do you have any disclosure to make regarding the REGCO, the TPA or the island airport? If not, fine and sorry for asking, but your interest in promoting this business has been rather laser focussed.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

> Full Citizen
> 
> Join Date: Feb 2003
> Posts: 828
> ...


Nor would they want to, I expect, other than to have the at least the appearance of currying favour with citizens of Toronto, many of whom did not vote for Harper. But that's not the reason I suspect Harper would put the Port Authority under Toronto's jurisdiction (or pave the way to gut it altogether)... I think that it has more to do with the shadowy cabal which runs the PA are all Liberal appointees from way back. Or so my neighbour's take on it... makes some sense to me, given how long the Liberals have ruled the Federal stage and their penchant for plum assignments to recalcitrant government bodies acting like pseudo-fiefdoms.

Nor do I expect Harper to do cozy up to Miller, although it would be marvelous... but I'm guessing that'll happen when hell freezes over. Too, Harper probably doesn't want to wade very far into Toronto politics, for a variety of reasons - but if the opportunity presented itself for him to make a symbolic demonstration of his loathing for Liberal corruption and its wanton spoils, the gigantic and spectacularly useless entity that is the Port Authority would be a perfect target.

I don't personally care for island airport traffic expansion, but I can live with it - as I can a variety of things I don't love about Toronto but put up with anyway. What's absurd to me is a Federal body which serves its own interests failing to work with the city itself on an important chunk of land _in that city_... an opaque, arrogant body which excels at nothing other than proving it can lose money like nobody's business.

This city needs some fixing and its waterfront presents some excellent opportunities to do some really cool stuff; we've already seen how strong visions can get watered down by plodding, dim-witted bureaucrats and functionaries - witness Harbourfront and its stellar curtain of grey hiding the waterfront from downtown Toronto; witness the fact that we never got wise and buried the Gardiner.

It _would_ be lovely to see leaders with a bold sense of imagination and the steely commitment required to carry their visions through - but it sure won't happen when the principal players, an overpaid, unaccountable lot, are busy endlessly squabbling and defending their petty little egos, fighting nasty territorial skirmishes while the city and its taxpaying base hemorrhages money.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

> What's absurd to me is a Federal body which serves its own interests failing to work with the city itself on an important chunk of land in that city... an opaque, arrogant body which excels at nothing other than proving it can lose money like nobody's business.


Max, I think we should leave it in the Fed's hands. Why would Toronto want to take over this body when we're struggling with a budgetary deficit? Just so Toronto's high 'n mighty mayor can stop the airport expansion? There is commercial lake traffic, and other responsibilities this federal body controls. I don't think it's wise or cost effective for Toronto to take on the responsibility.
Let's be careful for what we wish for, because Harper may just throw the responsibility and the costs into Miller's lap.

McGuinty plans to build a gas power generating station in the portlands, cargo ships still come into the Port of Toronto, I don't see cruise ships making a port of call here. LOL!

Condo developers are salivating at the potential, and money talks in this town. Don't think that all of the portlands will become public parkland. If we bulldoze the island airport for a public park, then let's bulldoze the island homes too.

Personally, I was for the bridge and I'm for a commuter airport to remain on the island. It makes sense for a city that *aspires* to be "world class".


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Yo, kps. I'm not so naive as to think that the Portlands will be nothing but parkland. LOL! No way that would ever happen. Land's too valuable and it's in the east end that there are more opportunities for big commercial projects as well as large, intensive urban residential redevelopment. As far as the PA's concerned, they strike me as inefficient and complacent. They are losing money and the Canadian taxpayer's footing the bill... but the people heading up the PA don't give a rat's patootie because their salaries are still being drawn. Maybe our fellow Canucks not in the GTA are annoyed that they're footing the bill. I don't know. Yeah, Toronto's still an operating port. Why can't the city have control over that jurisdiction? Even if we start to get serious homeland security heebiejeebies like our southern neighbours, the feds can have partial jurisdiction. The way I see it, no one's winning now.

I'm not so much against Harper downloading more stuff onto an already over-wrought city fiscal structure as I'm against the PA and its strange lack of accountability and indifference to the concept of prudent, transparent planning. Maybe if the city had more control of the purse-strings and where our tax dollars are allocated we could dig ourselves out of our current mess. However, good point you make all the same about being downloaded a potentially huge headache. I have more concerns about all of this than I have answers and I don't mind admitting it.

As regards the airport question, as I understand it these are turboprops being purchased - the airport, such as it is, cannot accommodate jet traffic. If that means it will be quieter than it would otherwise be, cool. Like I said before, keep the airport - but let them take a ferry over. I don't want the bridge because I've heard it will cause difficulties with silt and dredging in the inner harbour.

And as far as "world class" aspirations are concerned, I'm so sick of that phrase and the pathetic pretensions it embodies. Toronto should just get on with being Toronto, not p!ssing its pants wondering what the rest of the world thinks. Cities find greatness in having a big imagination, not fretting and twitching in some corner, wondering what New York or Paris or London would do... LOL!


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Max said:


> Yo, kps. I'm not so naive as to think that the Portlands will be nothing but parkland. LOL! No way that would ever happen. Land's too valuable and it's in the east end that there are more opportunities for big commercial projects as well as large, intensive urban residential redevelopment. As far as the PA's concerned, they strike me as inefficient and complacent. They are losing money and the Canadian taxpayer's footing the bill... but the people heading up the PA don't give a rat's patootie because their salaries are still being drawn. Maybe our fellow Canucks not in the GTA are annoyed that they're footing the bill. I don't know. Yeah, Toronto's still an operating port. Why can't the city have control over that jurisdiction? Even if we start to get serious homeland security heebiejeebies like our southern neighbours, the feds can have partial jurisdiction. The way I see it, no one's winning now.


You know I would never imply that you're naive, Max. You know that part of town better than anyone. You also know that some of that land that's down there should *NEVER be disturbed*...LOL!

Yup, you're right on..."no one's winning now". I think we've had bad luck with out Mayors, I don't think Miller is very effective when dealing with the province or the feds.



> I'm not so much against Harper downloading more stuff onto an already over-wrought city fiscal structure as I'm against the PA and its strange lack of accountability and indifference to the concept of prudent, transparent planning. Maybe if the city had more control of the purse-strings and where our tax dollars are allocated we could dig ourselves out of our current mess. However, good point you make all the same about being downloaded a potentially huge headache. I have more concerns about all of this than I have answers and I don't mind admitting it.


Honestly ol'bud, I hope Miller doesn't go there. It'll bleed this city dry. Screw'em and let them remain in the fed's jurisdiction. Toronto Port Authority



> As regards the airport question, as I understand it these are turboprops being purchased - the airport, such as it is, cannot accommodate jet traffic. If that means it will be quieter than it would otherwise be, cool. Like I said before, keep the airport - but let them take a ferry over. I don't want the bridge because I've heard it will cause difficulties with silt and dredging in the inner harbour.


The number of aircraft flying in and out are said to be below the set limits. They are also said to be below the current noise limitations. The big issue which I believe will defeat Miller, is the fact that they'll be built in Bombardier's Toronto/Downsview plant. Pretty good strategic move there. LOL. It means jobs in Toronto and Miller would be stupid to piss-off any more people. Especially with the elections coming in November.

Better to put up with a few planes buzzing around the island than looking at a pile of concrete and steel rubble across from the Yorkdale Shopping Center, which is all that is left of the McDonnell/Douglas plant in Malton. In a few weeks even that will be hauled away to reveal the state of Canada's aerospace industry...an empty and muddy lot.



> *I'm so sick of that phrase and the pathetic pretensions it embodies. Toronto should just get on with being Toronto, not p!ssing its pants wondering what the rest of the world thinks.*


Brilliant! My sentiments exactly. LOL (that calls for a smiley) :clap:


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Yeah kps, that's so sad about Malton. So much for that industry. We caved in.

Well, maybe we can agree to disagree about the Port Authority. I think I'd have no problem with it if Harper came in and cleaned house, shook things up a bit. Maybe the PA would actually cooperate with the city in addressing port redevelopment. _Maybe._ I have no illusions about big city politics - too many rich opportunities for [email protected] corruption and slimey side deals - so I'm not going to hold my breath.

Re: your generous assertion that I know the area in question so well: thanks you, but - much as I'd like to think I know a lot about the portlands, I don't. I live near there, I've explored and snapped a fair amount of pictures there, but that's all. I haven't ever delved into the history of the lands. Bet that would be interesting.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

This might interest you:

Portlands

Have a look at the second PDF link, titled #2Presentation. (a whopping 17MB)

It has some old maps from the 19th century of the proposed development plans. The south parts were always slated for parkland...even then.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

kps: thanks a bunch! That's a lot of info on the Portlands, past and present. Pretty cool to see what they've got planned over the next 25 years in my own backyard... what a build-out! Maybe by the time I'm getting ready to croak the place will look completely different than the way I found it. Maybe something good will come of all this. Certainly the city deserves a great waterfront.

If we were to get the Olympics that would kick-start a great deal. _If._


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Yup, lot of good info there. Your images of the portlands will be good archival material in the future...keep shooting. 

I think they gave up on the Olympics. Now they're bidding on the Worlds Fair...tell me who still attends these silly leftovers from the '30s. LOL! A nice way to get a big debt because these fairs are not a money maker and cost more than they bring in. Just have a look at the last few of them.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I wasn't aware that they threw in the towel on the Olympics... too bad on that score. I'm with you about Worlds Fairs - the idea seem somehow so retro now. And I doubt you can whip up international excitement about the idea sufficient to pay off the bazillions required to mount such an extravaganza. No, let the city rebuild the Portlands in accordance to its own timetable. Maybe we'll see some cool stuff down the road. What a huge chunk of land... what a great deal of potential. Serious cleaning up necessary, though. They don't call them 'brownfields' for nothing... and even that term is too soft to describe the lands down there.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Hear ya on the 'brownfields'...that's why earlier I said that some of that land should never be disturbed. ;-)

Still some die-hard industry down there, like the scrap paper processing plant...Cascades I believe. Some other 'dirty' industries still making muck. After a couple of hundred years of environmental damage, it'll probably cost as much to clean up the toxicity of the soil as it'll cost to build all that's planned. Just a thought.

Wonder where Dalt the Dud will put the proposed powerplant...maybe where the film studio is...after all, the Yanks aren't getting as big a bang for their buck as they used to.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

No, I think that studio is definitely a go... FilmPort, it's called. Too much momentum to stop now, and most of the projects up here are still funded by American money. Besides, lots of Canadian TV production happening these days, too... the industry is growing up and roots are being put down.

I hear talk that they'll either retrofit the Hearn Plant or demolish it (titanic job that's going to be, although they've been steadily gutting it for a couple of years now) and put the new power plant in its place.

If you take a closer look at that massive .pdf you referenced, you'll see where they intend to put what projects... it's fairly thorough. Plenty of room for everything, really. I'm glad I've been snapping the old Portlands, the one that's going to vanish. Funny how these things go, though... I always get the feeling that there's a still older Portlands that's already vanished, many decades ago now... an era of horse-drawn carriages and rough bars and busy wharves and plenty of dirty industry down there. This is what cities do... mutate and gentrify.


----------



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

The fate of Hearn is unclear. Miller and Co. want it retrofit and put back on line. The "word class" crowd wants it turned into a museum ripping off the Tate gallery in London. The province wants to demolish it.

What the hell are they going to do with the old Brewery?


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I'm not a member of the World Class crowd but I'll tell you this: the Hearn is a freakin' cool building and, as a member of the city's arts community and a big fan of repurposed architecture, I would love to see it turned into a gallery. I don't care if it would be construed by some as a knock-off of something else, somewhere else. Turning that red brick behemoth into a gallery or cultural centre would be a bold move... the kind of things that really imaginative and confident cities do.

It remains to be seen whether Toronto is ready for such a move; I doubt it. There's already too much competition in the works to carve up the Portlands. I rather doubt the planners are all that interested in the arts. This is bound to be a mixed-use area. A little bit of parkland, a little bit of dense housing, a little bit of light industry, a little bit of heavy industry too. Shoreline promenades, more marinas, cleaned-up views of the city, the Leslie St. Spit, the islands... something for everyone seems to be the mantra.

At any rate, I'll be following the progress of the Hearn story. I'm guessing that a retrofit for power generation would be massively expensive... so perhaps tearing it down and using the considerable chunk of land it occupies (or a parcel adjacent to it) for another energy generation project will be the outcome. Even then, the cost of demolition will be huge.

We're going to be getting more power generating capacity, and the plant to provide it is going into the Portlands... on or adjacent to the Hearn site. I hope the grand old hulk gets to stand, but if they take that sucker down, I'll be out there with my camera, recording that particular gig.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Sorry, meant to answer your question about the old brewery. You mean the old beer distribution warehouse at Leslie and Lakeshore? Labatts, was it, or was it Molson's? It had closed up operation long before I moved into this neck of the woods. That's the only place I can think of that you might be referring to. You do know it's been leveled, right? We heard all sorts of stuff about what was going to go in there. First a Home Depot, as an anchor store, along with smaller commercial outlets. Then we heard that Crappy Tire was coming in. The latest my neighbour told me was that they kept trying to solidify the land there but it's no good... it keeps sinking (remember, all of that area is landfill only a few decades old). Consequently, he tells me, Crappy is backing out.

But who knows. All sorts of rumours can fly and few of them turn out to have any substance. All I can tell you for certain is that, right now, it's a giant lot dotted with great mounds of crushed rubble... it's a monument to potential.

(;->))

Just had a thought... are you perhaps thinking of the old Gooderham and Worts distillery? The buildings are still standing proud but the place is rapidly turning into a tourist destination. The film industry used to shoot down there all the time, and many a commercial has been shot there too - but that's behind us now, the money people started coming around just a few years ago, sniffing out some serious redevelopment potential. It's definitely an anchor neighbourhood for all of the building that will be happening immediately to the east, south and north of it. It will be a shopping and cultural zone amidst a bunch of new residential stuff.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Max, I was joking about the studio being replaced by the powerplant... and since you're in the biz, maybe you can tell me who's financing that venture, if and when it's built. Isn't there a big studio down there now? Lakeshore Studios or some such.

On a different note, there are big plans for the area which encompasses the Distillery District.

Have a look at the proposals for the West 
Don Lands project.

The architects have taken Paris FR as an inspiration, but the artist rendering of the West Don Park reminds me of Battery Park in lower Manhattan.

All in all I like what I'm seeing on paper...or in those PDFs. Time will tell how much of it will come to fruition.


----------



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

I am talking about Canada Malting, near the airport. It is basically a complete ruin and in complete disuse except for the odd rave.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Trevor, I didn't even know that place existed. Now you have me curious. Although the islands are close by, they are not part of a grand Portlands plan. However, since it's by the airport and the airport is indeed expanding, then perhaps they'll doze it down and expand the airport or related facilities.

Wait a second, though... you just twigged my memory. Wasn't that the one they wanted to turn into a pop music museum? The silos figured prominently in the redesign of the site... however, it's a plan that I'm not sure they ever got off the ground.

Just did some Googling... here's the deal: a couple of museums, it would appear. There is indeed some kind of music museum plan, but that's going to also include this museum, The Canada Malting Museum of Industrial Archeology and Process. Bit of a vast title, but very cool concept all the same. I wonder if they'll carry it through. Funding these kinds of things can often be the big obstacle.

Speaking of raves. The newish copshop on Parliament just above Front is built around a great old turn of the century industrial building, one which has since been nicely restored. It has to be the coolest copshop in town. I remember trespassing on the grounds when it was a dank, leaky, empty shell of a building, only seven or eight years ago. The fellow who took me on the tour was at the time a roommate of mine and he both dj'ed and attended raves in there over the years. I could see how it would be a seriously cool place for a rave... cavernous, enormously high-ceilinged, old and ghost-like. Perfect for people tripping on substances.

(;->))


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Kps, the scale of the Filmport is far beyond anything which currently exists. It's intended to take Toronto up into the big leagues. Vancouver already has facilities of a comparable size, which is why many big ticket features are shot there. You need freakishly huge soundstages to mount some of those projects, and the new facilities are meant to address that. It's actually multiple soundstages of various capacities. We already have the crews and the expertise up here; this will be a major project to provide us the infrastructure we need to compete globally - heck, even compete within Canada! But places like New Zealand and Czechoslovakia are also getting more business, too. Big marketplace, the world, and each competing site offers their own attractive incentive packages. Our dollar isn't what it used to be, true, but our crews are well-repected by Hollywood producers and investors and our union wage rates remain numerically lower than our American counterparts... this is true of IATSE, which represents shooting crew, painters, carpenters, set decorators and dressers, etc. but even my own 'affiliation,' the DGC, sets cheaper rates than my American counterparts in the DGA. These fiscal differentials add up when you're talking about multi-million dollar projects.

Here's a link; it's going to be the largest sound stage in North America. Go big or go home. Shovels go in the ground in a few months. This is great news for people in my line of work and all those whose ancillary industries depend on the film and television biz here in town.

Another link here on the considerable soil cleanup and foundation provisions... scroll down the page until you see the rather titillating shot of Lara Flynn Boyle (skinny as a rake, I might add) and read the text below it.

Finally, don't know if you've seen this, kps, but here's a small photographic slideshow I did about the Portlands a three years ago (about 6 Mb download)... the Hearn Plant is in the last frame.


----------



## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

Well it looks like their going to demolish it, that is if it doesn't fall down on its own first (a real possibility). Apprently it is also in its present state a real fire trap.

The closest thing to airport development that site might see is a parking lot. Given the lack of the bridge, atleast for the time being, pretty much all the new infrastructure associated with the airport expansion will be on the island. There is lots of space on the island for just about anything proposed or even conceived of at this point. 

I don't quite understand the giant sound stage, you could build that anywhere.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Trevor... said:


> I don't quite understand the giant sound stage, you could build that anywhere.


Yeah, but it wouldn't be as cool or trendy. lol

That missfit of a building, that is the Canada Malt plant, is apparently designated as a historic landmark by the city...go figure. It is an eyesore considering all that's around it, no matter what you do to it, it just will not meld into the neighbourhood.

*Max, *
Thanks for the links, your slideshow is too frigging cool...it's a keeper, dude.

Coincidentally I was just there a few hours ago. Had to see my mechanic again and afterward I tripped down Leslie, after grabbing a hot cup of Timmy's natch.



















Check out the "other" site for more...


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Trevor: I'm sure you could indeed build that anywhere, yes - but many film industry people are used to working in the east-central core - it's traditionally been the home of the industry for many years now, although there have been satellite operations in recent years in places like Etobicoke and Hamilton. Central-East-end Toronto, particularly with respect to burgeoning neighbourhoods like Riverdale and Leslieville, is home to a great many 'grunts' in the trade - carps, painters, construction coordinators, grips, camera crew, accountants, set decs, and the like - even directors and producers. Oh, and the talent, too!

Even more relevant, I suspect, is this: that by selecting a downtown site, the industry is attempting to signal to the city at large its relative importance as a considerable employer in the GTA. Too, the site is strategic in terms of accessibility... the Gardiner and the DVP are close at hand and also, many of the guest directors and 'talent' who come from abroad have close and easy access to their posh hotels downtown.

And yes - Karlito is absolutely right - there's an undeniable coolness factor. I understand how easy it is to downplay all of the self-important hype the industry likes to project, but at the same time I suspect I am not alone in thinking it's mighty romantic to take an old, disused industrial area and breathe new life into it. It's unabashedly romantic, yes - but I suspect it can also be a sound fiscal decision.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Karlito: thanks for the complements re the slideshow. As for your pix, skip over to Magic for my take on them - suffice to say, well done! But! Next time you're in the area, what say we meet for a beer? I know a fine place where we can park our asses and have a wee chat. PM me for details, bud.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Sounds like a fine idea...and probably more to our liking than YUK-dale was. LOL!

PM on the way...


----------

