# Any electricians in the house?



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Having a VERY weird problem at my house.  The power keeps flickering in my house. All of a sudden my computer will shut off or the lights will flicker upstairs. Sometimes I can hear a weird bzzzzt sound from our breaker box.  We called in the hydro company, and they came to the house and took a look "at their end" but didn't find anything and said we should call a electrician. 

Well, being a guy, I thought perhaps I could diagnose the problem. Though maybe it was the christmas lights causing a short or something. Unplugged all of those but still got the flickering. 

The flickering is a real pain, because it's really intermittent so it makes it really hard to diagnose. 

We recently had a a couple of elements on our stove not working. Where the elements plugged into the stove had eroded, so I want to Home Depot  and got a replacement part. Plugged everything in and the stove was working fine. Thought maybe I did something wrong with wiring, so I had unplugged stove for the day, but we still got flicker with it unplugged. 

It's a real pain in the arse. Should of called the electrician, because now the misses is all worried that a fire will start in relation to the smell and arcing sound from the panel. 

I should call a technician, but to come out tonight will probably cost a fair bit, and well,







is  . 

Do breakers ever start to just react weird? I can't think of what is different in the house that would cause the panel to overload or anything. I've eliminated the 2 things that have changed slightly regarding electricity (Christmas lights and oven), and the problem is still there. 

Maybe little mice? 

Any advice, or should I just call a professional? ( I think I know the answer but maybe someone has a genius suggestion)


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## Peter Scharman (Jan 4, 2002)

If you hear a buzzing, you likely have a bad connection or breaker contact. Any chance you have aluminum wiring (70s vintage house)? I live in Kitchener and have an electrical background, so I'll be glad to help you out. No charge! E-mail me you [phone number and a time I can call. I'm going out now and won't be back till midnight


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I have no idea how old your house is, ehmac. And I don't know if you have Aluminum wiring. Or rats.

Age, aluminum wiring (VERY popular in the mid seventies) or vermin can cause these problems. It sounds as though something has corroded down to the point that there is a hot spot in the wires or possibly vermin have eaten the insulation and there is an intermittent arc happenning between two big wires. Because the system is AC (alternating current) you will have a buzzing sound and flickering lights. If it were DC (Direct Current) you would have a howling soud and constantly bright lights until something failed.

Or until something caught fire!  

EhMax...is it posiible for you to shut off the panel at the main breaker and still survive the night? If not...then I strongly recommend that you hit the main switch and head for a motel or a relatives house until you can get it checked out. By a professional. First thing tomorrow. 

It's just not worth risking your precious family for.

I'm serious.

[ December 16, 2003, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## jtmac (Apr 23, 2003)

I'm with Macnutt.
Be very careful.
Do not even touch the metal of the breaker box.
Sounds like a bad main breaker or bus bar connection.
The buzzing is the current jumping.
This should get checked ASAP.

This is not that uncommon a problem, especially where panels are sometimes placed like garages and damp basements.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Move your family and your pets (and your Mac) to a safe location right NOW! Kill the main breaker with something non conducting. While wearing rubber shoes.

Then evacuate. Don't take any chances.

Get it checked out first thing in the morning. Do the above right NOW!

I'm not kidding.


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## yoyo (Aug 3, 2003)

I am an electrician, here is what you can do.
Turn off the main breaker to the panel or main disconect, depending on the vintage. Once all the power is off and with a good flashlight in hand, take the cover off the portion of the panel where all the breakers are located. Not the cover plate that houses the main breaker as that is still live on one side.
Visualy inspect the connections to the breakers and also to the white(neutral) wires to see any burning at the connections. Also take a screwdriver and tighten all the connections as they will work loose over time. If the problem you are having is on more then one circuit it is a loose neutral somewhere, eighter in the panel or at a device box somewhere in the house.
If you have aluminum wiring the chances are good that the problem is at a device, a switch or recepticle that has a large load.
If all fails then call an electrician. We don't bite...........
hard.

Feel free to email, advice is free.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Thanks for all the advice folks! I think I will call a electrician in the morning.









House was built in the early 70's so might have been aluminum wiring. Mrs. ehMax actually heard one of the Ontario Hydro folks mention aluminum wiring, but they didn't actually inspect the panel. (Not their problem) 

It's been really intermitant the last two days. We won't evacaute the house, but I will be shutting everything off tonight to be safe, and we have lots of good working fire alarms all throught the house, so we'll be ok.









Will let you know how it goes. Thanks again.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Aluminum wiring is a bad idea. It's still approved for new construction in the US, though.

The problem is that Aluminum oxidizes upon contact with air. Well, so do many metals, including copper.

Except, Aluminum oxidizes immediately.The oxide coating is actually a barrier to corrosion, which is why aluminum can be shiny (the oxide is thin and the shine comes through) even though it's always coated in a thin layer of oxidation.

It is physically impossible to make an oxide-free connection with aluminum; we're just not fast enough to beat the inevitable chemical reaction with oxygen, even if we scrape or polish to bare metal immediatly before we try.

CSA approval was based on the physical deformation of aluminum when (for example) a screw terminal is tightened, scraping to bare metal as it cinches down. If they are in close contact, this metal-to-metal joint can be free of air and therefore free of oxide. Over time, though, the integrity of this joint can break down, introducing air to the crimp.

Aluminum isn't as malleable as copper, so over-tightening or movement/vibration can cause a break. You should always call an electrician if you are dealing with aluminum wiring because even people competant with copper can improperly connect aluminum wire and compatible hardware.

Another problem is it's an excellent heat conductor; the result is that it heats up and cools down much quicker than copper. This can cause small dimensional changes in the wire which tends to encourage loose connections over time.

I'm not sure what electricians use (it probably needs approval) but CAIG Pro-Gold is an excellent chemical corrosion barrier; it creates a conductive film between two metal-to-metal contacts. It's available at most electronic supply resellers.

Silver is the same; the problem is that Aluminum oxide is an insulator while silver oxide is an excellent conductor.

Incompatible materials can accelerate corrosion on Aluminum; which is why one poster gave you the excellent advice of having pretty much everything checked for non-aluminum compliant plugs, sockets, switches, lamp pigtails, etc.

The short answer is it's very expensive to replace all your Aluminum wiring with copper (much more than the difference in price had they used copper in the first place), which means for many it's not a viable option, but that's the only complete solution.

There is a process that uses a propretary connector and crimp tool (AMP corporation COPALUM) that can put copper pigtails on aluminum wire for connection to conventional switches, plugs, etc.

This process has the advantage that incompatible hardware won't be a problem, since they will now use a shorter copper wire to connect to your light fixtures and switches/plugs. The special tools and connectors must be used and it must be installed by an electrician or preferrably a contractor who has been certified by AMP.

You should check for twist-on connectors (either standard marettes or the purple Ideal connector) that mate two or more bare wires. These are not recommended and are a cause of failure in aluminum wiring.

Most electricians recommend the compatiblity check, periodic maintenance to insure tight connections, and testing for possible breaks or high-resistance runs. As MacNutt cautioned, don't take chances with Aluminum wiring; the symptoms you experience are a warning that should be heeded asap.

Consider yourself lucky; many people learn about aluminum wiring from the insurance adjuster.

If it turns out you have copper wiring and another problem, the good news is once you fix it you're probably OK. The warning about checking out any electrical fault quickly still stands; nobody wants a fire.

Done properly home wiring is safe, even aluminum wire provided the special installation practices are followed. Just keep in mind that all the wiring in any home is always heating up the space between your walls an easily measurable amount; it doesn't pay to ignore any electrical problem which can turn that wiring into a "better" heater.

[ December 17, 2003, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: gordguide ]


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Probably the working of the Devil (see thread above)...


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Well, I'm still here this morning.









My father-in-law is a foreman for a large construction company, and he has one of his electricians stoping by this morning. Will let you know the results.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Keep us all posted ehmax. You have gotten something started here wth this forum...and I'm not sure that it would be quite the same without you.


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## Peter Scharman (Jan 4, 2002)

ehMax, if you have a problem getting prompt assistance, my offer to come over still stands. When I read your problem, aluminum came to mind immediately. I was an electrician in the seventies and have installed and repaired many aluminum circuits. I never liked the wire, but it was CSA approved and price competition forced even those who mistrusted the wire to use it or lose their contracts. Only the custom home builders would pay the extra to install copper in those days. Having said that, the only real problem with aluminum (if not over-fused) was with the joints. Aluminum is soft and compresses with time, making joints and screw connections lose their tension. This creates a resistance which in turn creates heat and ultimately, arcing. That's where the fire hazzard is. The most problem prone joints are the ones that carry the most current, which usually means the ones closest in the circuit to the panel, or in the panel itself. In many cases, cleaning up the contact areas, restripping the wire and tightening the connection will do the trick. All devices (receptacles and switches) connected to aliminum wiring must also be approved for aluminum (CO/AL rated) as incorrect metal mixes can cause corrosion. Many a house was wired with the incorrect type before the regulation weas introduced. An anti-oxidant compound should also be used at all connections exposed to outdoor or humid air.
So, what does all this mean??? It means that if you discover that in fact the house IS wired with aluminum, every single device should be removed and checked, circuit by circuit, to ensure that they are the correct type and that all connections and joints are tightened. Then you'll have some peace of mind. If you have copper wiring, then the problem should be an isolated one. Turn off the breaker to the circuit that is flickering and/or making the buzzing. Keep the circuit OFFuntil inspected. Use an extension cord to another circuit for the computer if you have to. Good luck!


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Sounds like corroded aluminum wiring or a bad breaker switch or both. Do keep a careful eye on the electrical panel and make sure all your smoke alarms have batteries...I'm not saying that to scare you, rather just to be on the safe side. How many amp service is your panel? 200?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Electricians are here right now. No aluminum wiring in the house at all. One circuit had 18 amps (or is that volts?) running through it but was only a 15 amp breaker. We're fixing that right now, but cleaning up some wiring that the previous owner had setup which wasn't done to great. 

Should take them awhile.







 but will give peace of mind.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

It's amps ...and that's a good thing they caught that. While I'm sure it no fun having to shell out for an electrician (esp before Xmas), sounds like they're earning their keep. Shoddy electrical work can be lethal. When I bought my first house, I discovered that the previous owner had decided to do a little handyman electrical work in the basement. Among other things, he forgot to ground most of the light fixtures and had run the wiring exposed along the walls. For fear of that I might miss any more of this guy's goof-ups, I ended up pulling all the wiring in the basement and starting from scratch. 

Oh...did I mention that this particular handyman was a Nortel engineer?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Well, 6 hours later, and a freezing cold house, and they're done. Turns out there was more than just a little Amp problem. It's a bad sign when the electrician opens the panel and says "Holy $hit!"  and jumps back from the panel. 

One of the main wires coming into the house was totally fried and melted at the connector. 







 Had to get Hyrdo in to shut off the power, than electricians replaced the bad wires and connectors. They also fixed the over amp problem and several other bad connections that the previous "do-it-yourselfer" did. The electricians kept shaking their head at some of the things he did. Big dryer receptacle was not grounded. Several other receptacles all piggy-backed together. Gee... wonder what the problem was. 

Anyways, I'm really thankful to God my house didn't burn down. Maybe had a couple extra














watching us. 

I took some video of it and I'll try to get some pictures of the wire posted later. I think I'll sleep a lot better tonight. 

Although I asked them what it was going to cost, and they said the owner would send the bill. Not sure what the final tally is going to be, but I'll keep my fingers crossed. 

[ December 18, 2003, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: ehMax ]


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Image is from camcorder footage, so doesn't look to good. I took a picture, but with film based camera as I didn't have digital around. 

Left is what connector is supposed to look like. Right is melted connector.  Far right you can sort of see burn marks on the panel.


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## yoyo (Aug 3, 2003)

I've been a licensed electrician for 23 yrs and it still amazes me how many people will attempt home electrical. They just don't see the risk involved.
On a side note I don't understand why the incoming mains on your service would be spliced.
Good to see the problems are resolved in time for the holidays.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I'm really thankful to God my house didn't burn down.


Sounds like Christmas has come a little early at the mayor's mansion.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Holy crap!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> it still amazes me how many people will attempt home electrical.


i'm no electrician but even i know what a real "ground" is and how it is supposed to be setup

grounded to the outlet box is NOT grounding it

i always get a kick when i go do a home installation and see;
1. only 2 prong plugs in the house - inevitably the client asks me if using an adapter is ok -









2. i pull the plug out of the wall jack and see a spark - "is this grounded?" i ask - "sure" i'm told
"how did you ground it?" i ask
reply - sheepish look on face
"you should properly ground this elctrical outlet" i say
"call an electrician" i add
"i can do it myself" i'm told























and so the story goes


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Never leave *a* home without it!










I replaced all of the "knob & tube" wiring in my 80yr. old abode...now that was scary.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

My Dad was an aircraft electrician during WW2. He trained at Trenton Ont. and he was billeted off base in a very old house. He told me it had "knob and tube" wiring exposed across the walls and he also told me that he had trouble sleeping because he knew it was there.  

More house fires are caused by bad wiring than almost anything else, in my experience. That's why I recommended that you evacuate ASAP, just to be safe, ehMax.

Your family is irreplaceable.

Glad it all worked out and everyone is safe and sound.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Glad to hear it all worked out ehMax.

Our home, built in 1973, has aluminum wiring on the main floor. The basement, done years later is copper.

I had an electrician "pig tail" all the aluminum wiring ends with copper using a special flux or something to prevent corrosion and make our home a lot safer. I am glad I spent the money to upgrade it.









Cheers


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## jtmac (Apr 23, 2003)

I'm glad you got things sorted out too









I've never seen the mains melted like that. Must've been a bad connection?

Good thing you didn't play around with the box. It was probably intermittently "hot"


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## Peter Scharman (Jan 4, 2002)

Well, good to see you got that fire hazzard fixed before there was really bad news.  The irony in this whole affair is that the "do-it-yourself" problems were sharply criticized for their safety issues when the real hazzard was from a defective splice done by an electrician. Was the panel maybe once changed from a fuse type to a breaker type where the mains had to be extended? It makes no sense to have a splice in a mains feed, given the normally short (and inexpensive) run from the meter base to the panel. The grounding issue with the dryer, and fixtures was at best a potential shock hazzard, but not a fire hazzard...not to be taken lightly, but rather in context to the overall problem experienced. There are lots of older houses without grounded circuits and lots of devices that don't require a ground for safety certification. I think that ground-fault receptacles in outside or wet areas is a much greater safety issue. I could tell you some REAL do-it -yourself horror stories that I've had to remedy as well as some pretty shoddy "professional electrician" installations I've encountered. Unfortunately, you'll find a few bad apples in all the trades. There are also some really consciencious "do-it-youselfers" who do excellent work. 
Glad to see that the problems of both camps have been corrected and that you don't have aluminum wire to contend with.....hope the bill isn't too severe. Have a merry and safe Christmas!


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