# So it turns out I'm an idiot......



## Applelover (Mar 6, 2005)

I went to Compusmart yesterday to buy a copy of Virtual PC Version 7 for mac. I didnt know much about this program except that I could use Win xp apps on my mac. When I went in, the gentlemen at compusmart handed me the copy (it said "standalone" version on it). So I took it home and tried installing it.....little did I know that I needed a copy of Win xp with it!! I thought this was included in my copy that I purchased at compusmart. I paid $199.00 for this copy and the full version that I need is $329.00. Now since the software has been opened, it's against Compusmart's policy to return or exchange opened software. I called the manager today and spoke to him, they said it's ok if I return it and upgrade to the full package....AS LONG AS I HAVE MY RECEIPT! Problem is....I think I threw it out yesterday by accident :-( I'm so screwed! What should I do?


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

what to do.... well, far be it from me to suggest you 'download' xp... but there's always that option..


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## Applelover (Mar 6, 2005)

Yea i would download Win xp pirated...but I'd lose sleep at night knowing I'm stealing Bill Gates' money ;-) LMAO


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

MS is getting tougher on activation codes when upgrading Windows. So, there may be hassles in your future if you use a pirated copy.

This is a major bummer, Applelover... and take it as a learning experience


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Applelover said:


> AS LONG AS I HAVE MY RECEIPT! Problem is....I think I threw it out yesterday by accident :-( I'm so screwed! What should I do?


Only pitched it _yesterday_? CRACK OPEN THAT GARBAGE CAN AND START DIGGING!


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

HOW could you lose the reciept?!?!? always keep reciepts for EVERYTHING you buy, its better to be safe then sorry.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

good luck running xp and apps anyway.. it'll be slow as hell. virtual pc sucks imo.. better off to get a cheap pc..even a p3 would run laps around it..


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Go to those mom and pop computer stores and buy a mouse and OEM version of WinXP Home for like $120 altogether. Problem solved.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

Does it have to be XP? Windows 2000 runs way faster under VPC, and you'll find that for much less on eBay or whatever.


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## trump (Dec 7, 2004)

you can definitely find a copy of XP or 2000 for less than the cost of upgrading the VPC package

EDIT: do literal Mom and Pop computer shops even exist? lol


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## DBerG (May 24, 2005)

I can send u XP, i got like 10 copies right here on my desk. Whatever just download it. Microsoft is making you pay two times for one crap OS. Bill Gates deserve it. I thought that VPC comes with the indicated OS. Now that's a rip off.


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## someone (Jun 14, 2005)

I don't think running XP on VPC7 is a good idea anyways. Win2k or even better WinNT4 is much better suited for this purpose.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

someone said:


> ...even better WinNT4 is much better suited for this purpose.



WinNT4? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Wait...wait....

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

Oh please...my sides are hurting...oh wow...

HA HA HA!!!


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## DBerG (May 24, 2005)

Actually, I'm loving each of your microsoft bashing posts guytoronto, keep posting! 


guytoronto said:


> WinNT4? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
> 
> Wait...wait....
> 
> ...


ROFL LMAO!!!!!!!!!!


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

I'll bet the guytoronto's laughing at the severly outdated Win NT (no USB support, IIRC, as just one example) _being suggested_, and not laughing at Win NT, itself (which was fine in its day -- fine for Windows, that is).


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> I'll bet the guytoronto's laughing at the severly outdated Win NT (no USB support, IIRC, as just one example) _being suggested_, and not laughing at Win NT, itself (which was fine in its day -- fine for Windows, that is).


Yes, WinNT was great in its day...but that was a LONG time ago. In a galaxy far, far away...


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

How did you pay for it?
If it was by debit or credit card you do NOT need the receipt. Compusmart will have a record of the transaction. Produce the card and ID and they will play along. Stores will insist on you having the receipt because it's a pain for them to go through records etc. But you have rights as a consumer. If you go and insist that they have a record it is up to them to prove they do not.

If you paid by cash, well, tough.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Pelao said:


> If it was by debit or credit card you do NOT need the receipt. Compusmart will have a record of the transaction. Produce the card and ID and they will play along. Stores will insist on you having the receipt because it's a pain for them to go through records etc. But you have rights as a consumer. If you go and insist that they have a record it is up to them to prove they do not.


Umm...are you making this stuff up as you go?

Where are you pulling these facts from? Rights as a consumer? It's up to them to prove they do not? You are WAY out in left field here.

If Compusmart's policy is that you must retain your original receipt as proof of purchase, it doesn't matter if God-himself came into vouch for you. If you don't have your receipt, you have ZERO legal standing in trying to refund or exchange the product.

Heck, you've opened it, and that usually is enough for most stores to say "Sorry, your bad. Buyer beware." Sounds like Compusmart is being reasonable in letting you move up (if you had the receipt).

Please don't tkae the advice of anybody on here that insists you have rights that you don't, and that the store doesn't have rights that they do.


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## davidslegend (Jan 6, 2004)

Quote: "Where are you pulling these facts from? Rights as a consumer? It's up to them to prove they do not? You are WAY out in left field here." Quote

Not sure about rights as consumers but, I kind of think in logical terms is if you can produce a Interac bank statement for the purchase price or definately a credit card statement of the value of a product in question why the hell wouldn't a company credit you with such proof of purchase?!!?

Rant: Think of the paper trail these days left behind...companies love to track us & find out what the hell we like to spend our money on...So why the heck wouldn't this be a bit advantageous (spell?) for us to help us with refunds....We've all lost receipts...we get them mixed in with all the bank machine statements & all the other crap we buy...a receipt for a chocolate bar...& end up accidently trashing a few important ones at times....clutter...busy...lifestyles!! ARghh.....Finish Rant

I've done it before & gotten at least a store credit...but, ya stores don't like it too much! But, then again your the customer & they shoud do all they can to accomidate you, right?!?  

Best of Luck!

davidslegend


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

I would go back to the store and keep at them. How many copies of VPC did they sell in the last few days/months?
1! (probably).  
Plus, what Pelao said makes sense.


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## enaj (Aug 26, 2004)

What are the XP apps do you need to run on your mac? I would look for a similiar mac program. VP7 is too slow to run anything complicated.

What are the apps?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

davidslegend said:


> ... if you can produce a Interac bank statement for the purchase price or definately a credit card statement of the value of a product in question why the hell wouldn't a company credit you with such proof of purchase?!!?


That statement only indicates how much you spent. It does not indicate what was purchased.


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## someone (Jun 14, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> WinNT4? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
> 
> Wait...wait....
> 
> ...


It's not like you would run any modern programs with VPC. A dinosaur computer should always be accompanied by a dinosaur OS...


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Umm...are you making this stuff up as you go?
> 
> Where are you pulling these facts from? Rights as a consumer? It's up to them to prove they do not? You are WAY out in left field here.
> 
> ...



you call there, you tell them that in your credit statement, bank history, whatever, 
you got charged for something you did not buy, in an hour they will call you to come look at your signed receipt, you go and get the exchange.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

It's people like you who make retail the living hell that it is.

A retailers copy of a sales receipt is for their purposes only. Not yours.

You, as a customer, have the responsibility to adhere to a retail establishments return policy. If that policy states you must have the original receipt, there is no debate.

Often, an original receipt is required to prevent shoplifting (go pick one off the shelf and oops! I lost my receipt, but you guys have a copy).

If you can't live with the rules, too bad.

If you think the world needs to accomdate you because you can't follow the rules, too bad.

If you think that making up your own rules will solve your problems, too bad.

Really? What is so hard about "Original receipt required for refund"?

How does that translate into "Original receipt required, unless you lose it, so it's okay if you get mad at us, and then we'll bend over backwards to make you happy."


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> It's people like you who make retail the living hell that it is.


Nah, I think its just an intrinsic thing.

Perhaps it is thee, guytoronto, jaded dog, who create such consumers who hate retail and thus search for ways to destroy your life?

Alright that was a bit of silliness (I've watched too many period movies lately )

In all seriousness, though, why not try to help a consumer if you can? I never understand people who stand in a position where they can do something but choose not to. Perhaps by creating a slight inconvenience for yourself you can save someone else from an exponentially larger one? And yes, I have worked in retail (I do right now) and its not really that bad: Wow, sometimes you have to deal with people who get mad about their purchase and what you can or can't do to help them, oh my, how will I cope with the stress?


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## draz (Jun 13, 2005)

Hey if you used your Debit or redit card for 2 bucks you can order a hard copy with the actual financial transaction code which is a legal reciept in under canadian consumer laws. Then it is just up to them ot find that transaction code (which they all have) in their system. 

Stupid gates, I told him last week to cut out that stand alone crap. He and Melinda are still to narrow minded when it comes to effective price policy on fringe products. He could use this as a stepping stone to attract new users.

Another option is to go into the store, talk to the manager and pull the "Im am totally out of my mind routine" IT works great on a saturday afternoon of friday after work, when the store is packed. Just start out saying 'i really just want to mmghMMM AAARRRGGH H ...Firey ANTS ARE KILLING MY Brains ..ng ALL I WANT IS YOU TOOO LISten AArg... MY Penis is growing... ITS TOOO HOT.. AAAhhhhHAHAJJ EEHHE EH MONKEYS RUN THIS STORE YOU SAY....ehhhhhhhh' Then fall down and start to fake a sezure, with lots of drooling and flailling. THen simply pay the difference, thank the manager, ask the cute cashier for her number and go home and enjoy.

Easy as pie.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Folks, guytoronto has a good argument, and y'all should drop the wishful thinking. Receipts are the hard and fast evidence of a purchase. Debit or credit card histories _might_ work, but there are -- like trying to exchange without a receipt -- loopholes that could be taken advantage of. Having said all that, I HAVE exchanged goods without a receipt in the past, but I considered myself lucky. And if it works for anyon else, consider _yourself_ lucky. Give it a whirl, but don't come down on the retailer too hard if they don't go for it.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Draz? *LMFAO!*


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## draz (Jun 13, 2005)

Nothing gets attention like CRAZY

hahaha


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## dmpP (Jun 1, 2004)

Macaholic said:


> MS is getting tougher on activation codes when upgrading Windows. So, there may be hassles in your future if you use a pirated copy.
> 
> This is a major bummer, Applelover... and take it as a learning experience


or find someone you know with a corporate key... from what I gather... all the corporate keys are identical... essentially... you can reg. win xp with the corporate key on unlimited computers... although... it would not be legit to do so


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Note to self: avoid shopping in same stores as Draz...and carry a taser.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Yeah... but it would be fun to watch!


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

draz said:


> Nothing gets attention like CRAZY


You must get quite alot of attention then


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> It's people like you who make retail the living hell that it is.
> 
> A retailers copy of a sales receipt is for their purposes only. Not yours.
> 
> ...



Man, take it easy!

i'm not Osama ben Laden.

i'm not planning to blow the cn tower. On your head.

And i play by the rules. On the other hand, you have missinterpreted what the rules are there for. The "spirit" of the rule of exchange with original receipt, means that they will honour the exchange policy to "real" customers as opposed to any Joe that walk in a store. If , for instance, i blow the cn tower, and your receipt gets lost in the rubble, or you lost it; there is always the hardcopy trail to keep the world moving. I was just suggesting to use that option, most merchants will honour it.
Granted, some retailers, will not, and will flash in your face the sign "original receipt", and they have the right to do that. It's bad bussinnes, but can happen.
ces't la vie. 

in what line of bussinnes do you work?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

gastonbuffet said:


> in what line of business do you work?


Retail management.

Been in the business almost 12 years. I have seen almost every con people try to use to swindle businesses.

Saw a woman claim she lost her receipt, and in the bottom of the box was a Future Shop receipt.

Saw another woman claim she lost her receipt, and her little boy pointed out the fact that she didn't buy it from our store, but from another retailer (Future Shop coincidentally). She was not happy with her kid.

Had a couple come in with a product saying they had bought it the week before, and that it doesn't work and they wanted their money back (no receipt). Did a product history search, and we hadn't sold it in 4 months.

Had a customer come in with a photocopy of a receipt, saying that he had surrendered the original with a previous refund, but now he had to refund another product. Video tape revealed he had picked a product of our pegs, and was trying to refund it. A further investigation revealed he had hit a number of company stores with the same story.

Those are just the examples of people without receipts. I could go on about all the other absurd customer stories.

A lawyer who bought a book, then wanted to refund it because a newer edition came out, and he just wanted to borrow it so he could photocopy the updated pages.

A woman who thought that because we didn't have the model she wanted in stock, we should give he the next model up (the more expensive one with more features) for the same price as the lower end model.

Customers who think that returning a product without packaging is fine, because the product is fine and "nobody will care if there is no box."

Customers who don't want to pay a restocking fee because they wrote all over the manual and think that charging to replace the manual is absurd.

Customers who want to write cheques. (Good lord!)
Some get quite nasty when I explain we don't accept personal cheques (does anybody anymore?)

This is why retail is the living hell that it is.

I will give a word of advice to all customers. If you go into a store, and you know you screwed up (lost the box, receipt, whatever), be kind, accept blame, and ASK if there is anything the retailer can do for you.

If a customer comes to me willing to accept the consequences of his actions, I will usually try to bend the rules a bit to accomodate him. Obviously, this is a customer we want to keep.

If a customer comes to me DEMANDING satisfaction, ignoring policies, saying they are stupid, etc., that customer gets ZERO sympathy from me, and I will often hold them to the letter of the policy.

I once banned a customer from our store because he wasn't satisfied with his product after 4 months of use, and the first thing he said was "If you don't make me happy, I'm going to take you to court and sue you for damages."


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> Umm...are you making this stuff up as you go?
> 
> Where are you pulling these facts from? Rights as a consumer? It's up to them to prove they do not? You are WAY out in left field here.


Nope. That's how it works. Of course there are the cons out there, and you have helpfully listed many.

However, in Ontario at least, the consumer is entitled to the full protection of the law as long as purchase can be proved. The consumer can prove this any way they like, including demanding that the store produce their copy of the transaction.

Having said that, in this case it would not mean a refund because stores do have a right to refuse a refund on certain types of goods - in this case software. But the discussion was not about a complete refund, but an exchange.

My point was that Compusmart indicated they would let him upgrade as long as he had the receipt: if he went along and explained the receipt was lost, and could they check their records, it seems likely they would help. 

Most experienced retailers can detect a con pretty quickly.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Pelao said:


> However, in Ontario at least, the consumer is entitled to the full protection of the law as long as purchase can be proved. The consumer can prove this any way they like, including demanding that the store produce their copy of the transaction.


Here is the law. Found at http://www.cbs.gov.on.ca/mcbs/english/260a_38a.htm



> Many people believe stores are required by law to take back goods but, actually, there is no legal requirement for most stores to offer refunds or exchanges. Refunds and exchanges are customer service policies some, but not all, stores adopt. Check what the refund and exchange policy is and get it in writing. If you want a refund or exchange based on unfair practice, you have legal rights and the retailer must address this issue.





> Find out:
> If the store gives full or partial refunds, exchanges or credit notes.
> If seasonal items can only be returned within a certain period of time.
> What personal items, such as jewelry or lingerie, are excluded from the store’s policy.
> ...


Read the full Consumer Protection Act at http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/02c30_e.htm

Unless a retailer makes a "false, misleading or deceptive representation" of a product or service, the Consumer Protection Act can do nothing. The customer is bound by the retailers refund/exchange policy.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Well, there ya have it. NEXT THREAD!


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

so, i'm not the reason why retail is the hell it is?

i re read my original post, and i understand why you want me shot. But i wasn't trying to con the store, i was just saying the "fastest" way to get a store to produce a record:

there are two ways:
a) being nice, asking for it, : that could take minutes to a few days....or
b) saying you did not buy it: that will produce the copy in minutes. (because you did, they now it, and they quickly go: here's your receipt, moron!)


BUT, in any case, i was posting this assuming that the item was bought legit, in a big store like "compusmart", so once the copy of the receipt is produced, then you can adhere to the store policy, whichever that is. 

sorry to keep typing yadayadayada here, we are all in the same page here (if you reread all the post, we are all saying the same(even draz), it's just that i don't like being acussed of things i'm not.

What i'm dying to know is the outcome of all this thread: did applelover get a copy of the receipt and upgraded, or not?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

gastonbuffet said:


> so, i'm not the reason why retail is the hell it is?


Not you personally. If you adhere to the store policies, and don't whine and gripe about them, then you are a decent customer.

It's the ones that don't get their way and try to make a scene out of it.


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## iNeedhelp (Oct 23, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> Only pitched it _yesterday_? CRACK OPEN THAT GARBAGE CAN AND START DIGGING!


Agreed!


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

You can go to those mom n pop computer shops and buy XP Home OEM for like less than $120 with a purchase of a system component such as a mouse. Or, I have an XP Professional license I'm not using anymore if you want to buy it.


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## CompGuy (Sep 19, 2004)

Which Compusmart location did you buy it at?

Speaking from experience, I purchased an item from Compusmart in downtown Toronto and ended up misplacing the receipt. I simply went into the store and requested a new receipt. They looked up my name and the purchase in their system and printed me out a duplicate receipt. I do not know if all locations are like this but perhaps you should ask.


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## iNeedhelp (Oct 23, 2005)

CompGuy said:


> Which Compusmart location did you buy it at?
> 
> Speaking from experience, I purchased an item from Compusmart in downtown Toronto and ended up misplacing the receipt. I simply went into the store and requested a new receipt. They looked up my name and the purchase in their system and printed me out a duplicate receipt. I do not know if all locations are like this but perhaps you should ask.


How long was the time period from when you lost the reciept to when you went to the store and requested a new reciept?


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

way to revive a thread from the dead..


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

CompGuy said:


> Which Compusmart location did you buy it at?
> 
> Speaking from experience, I purchased an item from Compusmart in downtown Toronto and ended up misplacing the receipt. I simply went into the store and requested a new receipt. They looked up my name and the purchase in their system and printed me out a duplicate receipt. I do not know if all locations are like this but perhaps you should ask.


Well, I think we have established this is not GuyToronto's store.

Even though there's no law that requires retailers to be nice to customers, it looks like the staff of that store chose to be helpful anyway. Go figure.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

/


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## iNeedhelp (Oct 23, 2005)

kloan said:


> way to revive a thread from the dead..


Woah! I made this thread cool again! Sorry, I was just searching and this came up. I didn't realize it was that old....


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

nxnw said:


> Well, I think we have established this is not GuyToronto's store.
> 
> Even though there's no law that requires retailers to be nice to customers, it looks like the staff of that store chose to be helpful anyway. Go figure.


A duplicate receipt is usually valid for warranty issues. Not for refund purposes.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

_Why would anyone want to buy Virtual PC???_ You can buy a complete Windows system for not much more, and XP will run sooo much better on that machine compared to Virtual PC on a Mac.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

guytoronto said:


> A duplicate receipt is usually valid for warranty issues. Not for refund purposes.


... and it's pretty good for being nice to your customers purposes, too... even though being nice to customers in not required by law.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Why not? It establishes the purchase was made, clearly. Not only that, but the store clearly acknowledges the purchase was made. Why would anyone shop there again then?


Here we go again...

A duplicate receipt indicates that a purchase was made, however, for fraud prevention purposes, many stores require the original receipt. Here is why...

A customer buys product A. Customer obtains a duplicate receipt. Customer returns product A with the original receipt. Customer then steals product A, and tries to refund it using the duplicate receipt. Wait...not all people steal.

Customer buys product B. Customer uses it for a couple of months and realizes he doesn't really want or need it. Problem is, the store has a 30-day refund policy. Customer buys another product B, obtains duplicate receipt, returns 2nd purchase with original receipt, and tries to return original purchase with the duplicate receipt.

In both circumstances, the store would be the victim of fraud. Many retailers now have policies in place stating specifically that only the original sales receipt may be used for refund or exchange purposes. This is to protect them.

A lot of people love to throw the term "customer service" around. Maybe more people should consider extending a little bit of that service back to the retailers.


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## kent (Oct 18, 2003)

kloan said:


> good luck running xp and apps anyway.. it'll be slow as hell. virtual pc sucks imo.. better off to get a cheap pc..even a p3 would run laps around it..


Good advice ... you could probably get a dell with LCD for $500 bucks. I'd rather pay $500 for a REAL PC instead of $329 for an excuse of a PC ... VPC does suck. It's miserably sluggish - not sure how it performs on a G5. AutoCAD is generally a very snappy program, using VPC it runs like OSX would on 64 MB of RAM. On my 6 year old PC it's fine.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

guytoronto said:


> A lot of people love to throw the term "customer service" around. Maybe more people should consider extending a little bit of that service back to the retailers.


Well, the customer IS always wrong.

Maybe you can tell us your store so we can all come by and grovel.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

> That's a ridiculous way to return a purchase. They would have just stolen the item in the first place.
> 
> People do lose their receipts, it happens. It happens also that we may choose to shop at places that recognize this happens.


From my tenure at London Drugs I found out pretty quickly that there is a subset of the populace whose express purpose of shopping there was to rip off the company. (Camera Rental store for your vacation to Mexico?) People do lose their receipts and I've never seen a place that doesn't officially require the original proof of purchase (however many will bend the rules so long as the product is in good condition, the circumstances are understandable, it doesn't sound like you're making up a sob story that the staff doesn't care about).

I had people buy new phones and package their old phone back into the new package and bring it back. They never seemed too pleased when I popped open the box to do a quick look see at the contents (when you've opened enough it's easy to tell just by opening the top flap and not even needing to take anything out).

We forget our receipts, and it is nice when you get a person willing to do it without a receipt, but officially according to the store policies they shouldn't.



> Well, the customer IS always wrong.


I learnt that the customer isn't always right, but it doesn't mean they just don't understand. It's a balance between protecting (the company) one's collective ass with providing after sales support on a product the customer had a problem with.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

Chealion said:


> People do lose their receipts and I've never seen a place that doesn't officially require the original proof of purchase (however many will bend the rules so long as the product is in good condition, the circumstances are understandable, it doesn't sound like you're making up a sob story that the staff doesn't care about).


That reflects an effort to be fair and reasonable rather than operating from the premise that all customers are dishonest.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

nxnw said:


> That reflects an effort to be fair and reasonable rather than operating from the premise that all customers are dishonest.


Of course the customer isn't always dishonest. If the item in question is serialized, then a duplicate receipt should be good enough for a refund. It's really hard to be fraudulent when dealing with serial numbers.

There is a balance that has to be maintained. Customers do have to take some responsibility for their purchases, and realize that "I lost my receipt" does not mean the retailer has to bend over backwards to make you happy.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

guytoronto said:


> There is a balance that has to be maintained. Customers do have to take some responsibility for their purchases, and realize that "I lost my receipt" does not mean the retailer has to bend over backwards to make you happy.


 Sure. I don't expect a vendor to bend over backwards, but I really appreciate those who do. I also think it is fair for a customer to expect a vendor to make, at least, a bit of an effort to be helpful and reasonable. If there is no reasonable basis to suspect a customer is dishonest, he shouldn't be treated as if he is.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

nxnw said:


> Sure. I don't expect a vendor to bend over backwards, but I really appreciate those who do. I also think it is fair for a customer to expect a vendor to make, at least, a bit of an effort to be helpful and reasonable. If there is no reasonable basis to suspect a customer is dishonest, he shouldn't be treated as if he is.


Retailers also appreciate customers who adhere to posted policies. I think it's fair for retailers to expect a customer to make a bit of effort, in the way of retaining the original sales receipt. If there is no reasonable basis to assume the retailer is being unreasonable (i.e. requesting an original sales receipt for refunds or exchanges is not unreasonable), the retailer shouldn't be treated as if he is.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

guytoronto said:


> Retailers also appreciate customers who adhere to posted policies. I think it's fair for retailers to expect a customer to make a bit of effort, in the way of retaining the original sales receipt. If there is no reasonable basis to assume the retailer is being unreasonable (i.e. requesting an original sales receipt for refunds or exchanges is not unreasonable), the retailer shouldn't be treated as if he is.


Again, the presumption is that the customer is a lazy, inconsiderate jerk. Modern life is awash in pieces of paper, and some of them go astray. It happens to everyone.

As for "posted policies", they are no substitute for being fair and reasonable. Too often, "posted policies" are offered as an excuse for not being fair and reasonable. 

Any vendor who automatically says "no receipt, tough luck" in every situation is going to antagonize a lot of reasonable and honest customers. May I suggest that, if you felt the attitudes you have expressed were so defensible, you might have disclosed where you work.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

nxnw said:


> Again, the presumption is that the customer is a lazy, inconsiderate jerk.


Never suggested that. Receipts are sometimes considered not important. If people handled original receipts like $20 bills, I guarantee none would ever be "misplaced". Customers need to think of original receipts like that.



> Modern life is awash in pieces of paper, and some of them go astray. It happens to everyone.


This is hardly an excuse. Think of how carefully you handle a winning lottery ticket, a doctors prescription, a $5 bill, directions to the Xmas party, that hot girl's phone number on a cocktail napkin, etc. It's all about perception. If it is perceived as trash, it will be treated as such. Original receipts should not be considered trash.



> As for "posted policies", they are no substitute for being fair and reasonable. Too often, "posted policies" are offered as an excuse for not being fair and reasonable.


*Honest Ed's* - No refunds or exchanges...ever!!!
*Computer Systems Centre* - All non-defective/damaged returns must be made within 7-days of receiving the product and must be FACTORY SEALED, in new and resalable condition, and include original packaging with all unmarked manuals, accessories, and warranty cards.
*Future Shop* - Simply return the product within 14 days for Computers, Monitors, Printers, Notebook Computers, Camcorders, Digital Cameras, Radar Detectors, Portable DVD Players and Air Conditioners, in its original condition and packaging (including all manuals & accessories) along with the original sales receipts. There will be a nominal charge for missing packaging, accessories or manuals.
[EDIT] If you consider the posted policy to be unfair and unreasonable, why would you ever shop there?

"Fair and Reasonable" is very subjective. What may seem fair to one customer may seem totally absurd to the next. Realistically, retailers have to draw the line somewhere, and unfortunately, there will always be customers who want more.



> Any vendor who automatically says "no receipt, tough luck" in every situation is going to antagonize a lot of reasonable and honest customers.


I feel very sorry for any vendor who has customers return stuff on a regular basis. Returns and exchanges should be few and far between. Let's look at the reasons people return stuff.

Didn't Need It / I Changed My Mind - shouldn't have bought it. You've wasted your time and the retailers time and resources.
Don't Need It / Don't Want It Anymore - retailers are not rental shops.
Didn't Like It / Doesn't Do What I Want It Too - should have done some research first off. Occasionally, there are situations where you need to have the product to validate it's usefulness, but again, this should be the exception, not the rule.
It's Broken - not a return issue. It's a warranty issue. Either repair or exchange based on policy.
My Husband / Wife Bought One Too - Need better communication with your spouse.

Notice how only one of these excuses has anything to actually do with the retailer (it's broken). All other excuses are 100% on the consumer. So why are we asking retailers to take responsibility for something that is totally out of their hands?



> May I suggest that, if you felt the attitudes you have expressed were so defensible, you might have disclosed where you work.


If I said I worked at Honest Ed's, would that change anything?
How about Canadian Tire, Zellers, The Apple Store? The very fact that I do have to defend retailers refund policies makes it clear that I can't disclose where I work. There is a segment of the population that would never shop from my store based on what I've stated here.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

guytoronto said:


> The very fact that I do have to defend retailers refund policies makes it clear that I can't disclose where I work. There is a segment of the population that would never shop from my store based on what I've stated here.


Maybe that "segment of the population" has a perspective worth considering. 

Pretty much every one of your posts sets up a straw man - the unreasonable, dishonest customer - to justify a harsh policy. But most of us are honest and not so unreasonable, so blind, universal application of the policy means we all get treated badly. That's not right.

I bet there is no store in Toronto that would devastate any of us if it disappeared overnight. On the other hand, what store can say it has so much business that it can afford to lose a "segment of the population". Like it or not, customers are your oxygen, not the other way around.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Like any other business, the bottom line is affected by fraud.

It is because there are segments of the population that are fraudulent, that retailers have to institute these policies. Retailers don't know if the next customer is honest or not. If they treat every customer as an honest one, it exposes them to fraud. If they treat every customer as suspect, people won't shop there. There is a fine balance.

The best way for a customer to be treated fairly is to earn the respect of the retailer. In my business, I see a lot of repeat clients, and a lot of "one-purchase-only-and-ever" clients. If one of my repeat clients loses his receipt, I can trust him. No problems. If somebody comes in, buys a VCR, and I have never seen that person, if he tries to refund it a few days later with no receipt, he is suspect.

The best advice I can give to customers is develop a relationship with the store you shop from. Whether it's the regular video guy at Future Shop, or the meat guy at the local Loblaws. That way, when you have a problem, they are WAY more likely to be flexible on their policies.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

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## jasonwood (Oct 19, 2003)

guytoronto said:


> I feel very sorry for any vendor who has customers return stuff on a regular basis. Returns and exchanges should be few and far between. Let's look at the reasons people return stuff...


I agree with most of what guytoronto has to say, but he has forgotten one very important thing in this list. When selling technical products, the dealer often knows, or ought to know, more about the products than the customer. 

The standalone copy of VPC is a classic example. Most customers would never imagine that they could buy VPC, take it home, and find that is unuseable out-of-the-box! 

I blame the manufacturer for not making the issue clearer on the box, but after being on the market for so many years, stores should be asking questions when this item comes up to the cash register. In fact, on products such as these, I think resellers should be putting flag up every time the product is scanned onto an invoice (so the sales guy can ask questions to ensure the customer is buying what they need).

While I would never imply that a reseller has an obligation to do all the things some are suggesting in this thread, it does make good business sense to try to find innovative ways to protect yourself from fraud while improving flexibility.

For example...

Design your POS system so that it does not allow the same item to be returned twice (there should be a relationship between the sales invoice and the return invoice, in software). I believe this would eliminate the concern about duplicate receipts being used fraudulently.

On high ticket items without a serial number, I'd put a tamper-proof sticker (can't remove without destroying) with a store-assigned serial number (hell, it could be the invoice number if you're willing to do it at the POS) on the box (under the shrink-wrap). Make it a bar code to make it even harder to copy. Then the relationship between the item sold and the bill of sale (whether the customer has it in their hand or not) can always be trusted.

There are a million creative ways to use modern database software to improve service while making your company more efficient and resistant to fraud at the same time. It's not an obligation, it's just a really good idea!


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

Nobody is an idiot for not keeping the original receipts.
Negligent, unwise, careless, sloppy, undoubtedly though.
Considering all that can be avoided by filing the original receipts in a paper folder to access it just in case, I must quote Nike: «Just do it».


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Everything GuyToronto says is completely reasonable. It's not his fault you lost your receipt, but you treat him like what he says is a personal attack. It may not be obvious to you, as a law-abiding citizen, but no receipt means he must start treating you like a crook, because the vast majority of the time, it's a scam of some kind that innocent folk can't imagine people would come up with. And, he hates treating what could be an innocent customer like a crook; he'd much rather you just kept the damn receipt. Okay?

You want a receipt? I can fabricate one in about 10 minutes, and so could you, and it happens every day. Maybe you don't know it, but retailers get tired of paying money for products to scammers when the inventory they bought is sitting on the shelf.

I've done my share of hunting down receipts for customers, in another life. I don't need to do it, I don't want to do it, and generally doing it is going to mean I give you money. Be nice, because it's a favor.

Me, after rooting through dusty boxes for 20 minutes. "I'm sorry, I can't find it."

Customer: "Oh, did I say <i>January?</i>. Must have been December. Or In the summer sometime. "
Off I go, 20 more minutes. Meanwhile, while I'm gone, he scowls impatiently at my staff at the 'till and volunteers to every customer who buys something:

" ... How hard can it be to just dig up a reciept? ..."

Well, I'll tell you how hard. Too hard. See ya.

Like I said. Be nice, he's doing you a favor.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

gordguide,

I feel your pain. I too have dug through boxes of receipts for customers. I would always love how impatient they would get. Sorry, I have to file thousands of receipts per week. How many does the customer have to keep track of?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

FutureShop: oh, you ordered that online and lost your receipt. Just go into your online account and print out another one. It's a .pdf.

That's how easy it is, and how easy it should be.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

HowEver said:


> FutureShop: oh, you ordered that online and lost your receipt. Just go into your online account and print out another one. It's a .pdf.
> 
> That's how easy it is, and how easy it should be.


That is easy. Fortunately, Future Shop has $$$, so they can spend money on a very functional system like that. Small businesses usually have to make do with what is available and affordable. Not usually a lot of options for customization.

Since we're talking about Future Shop, will they take stuff back without an original receipt?

_If for any reason you are not completely satisfied with your purchases, Future Shop will gladly give you a full refund or exchange. Simply return the product within 30 days (14 days for Computers, Monitors, Printers, Notebook Computers, Camcorders, Digital Cameras, Radar Detectors, Portable DVD Players and Air Conditioners) in its original condition and packaging (including all manuals & accessories) along with the *original sales receipts.*_

It would appear not. Anyone have experience that says otherwise?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

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