# Purchasing home with finished basement without permits?



## apihome (Sep 5, 2010)

Hi, 

We have been house-hunting for almost 6 months and we finally came across a house that we fell in love with and can actually afford (Toronto, ON) b. There is one problem though, it has a finished basement with a bathroom as well as a bathroom in the second floor which were done without a permit. We are scheduling our inspection for next week, but we are still uncomfortable with the fact that the basement and upstairs bathroom where renovated without a permit. 

What would you do? Would you buy a house with renovations without permits?

Is there anyway for me to now get permits for a renovation that was done almost two years ago?

What kind of penalties or fees would I have to pay for buying a house with renos without permits?

Do you think there will be problems with the insurance company and mortgage company?

Thanks in advanced for all your help


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Why not make the city permits and inspection a condition of sale ON THE CURRENT OWNER? Why should you worry about it? If the owners want a sale, they should know they would have to have documentation from the city the work has been approved. Darned if I would pay for it.


----------



## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

SINC said:


> Why not make the city permits and inspection a condition of sale ON THE CURRENT OWNER? Why should you worry about it? If the owners want a sale, they should know they would have to have documentation from the city the work has been approved. Darned if I would pay for it.


It's Toronto. No owner would pay, there's always another buyer who won't condition, especially if the property is affordable.


----------



## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

This is an odd first post?! Why would you choose an Apple/Mac forum to register to post a question about Toronto building permits?!


----------



## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

apihome said:


> Is there anyway for me to now get permits for a renovation that was done almost two years ago?


Sure, but you're not going to like it. You would need to tear off the drywall and expose the work that had been done (structural, electric, plumbing), get it inspected, then repair the walls.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

You can get a permit after the fact; they will charge you twice as much as it would cost to get it beforehand. (How much that is varies by the square footage of the renovation.) Also, to get the permit passed, you would likely need to open up some walls, so there is some cost there in opening and repairing them.

Note that just because there is no permit, that doesn't necessarily mean that the work is bad. It's just that without a permit, you cannot be assured one way or another. But my point is that is may not be an expensive fix.

Honestly, I'd get an estimate about how much it would cost to get the permits done and cleared, noting that without opening stuff up, it will be very difficult to estimate this accurately. 

But if you can come to a rough figure, I'd see about getting the cost of the house lowered by that much, and then getting it done yourself to ensure that it's done right. (And hey, while you are at it, you could make a few improvements.)


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

In Quebec this would be completely the present owners responsibility and you would have nothing to worry about... too bad it is in ON.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

How would you even know it was done without permits? If I were buying a house, the last thing I would ask is to see the permits for any renovations, whether done two years ago or 25 years ago.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> How would you even know it was done without permits? If I were buying a house, the last thing I would ask is to see the permits for any renovations, whether done two years ago or 25 years ago.


I was wondering the same sort of thing... in QC the municipality doesn't inspect your house except even 10 years or so... and only very superficially.


----------



## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

Macfury said:


> How would you even know it was done without permits? If I were buying a house, the last thing I would ask is to see the permits for any renovations, whether done two years ago or 25 years ago.


You legally have to disclose that information when selling your home... You can't sell a home with a finished basement if it was done without permits...


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> You legally have to disclose that information when selling your home... *You can't sell a home with a finished basement if it was done without permits...*


So does not then not mean that even it they sold it, the cost of the after the fact permits would then be the responsibility of the seller?


----------



## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

screature said:


> So does not then not mean that even it they sold it, the cost of the after the fact permits would then be the responsibility of the seller?


Nope. As long as you disclose that the work was done without permits it's akin to selling with an unfinished basement (and the price usually reflects that).


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

G-Mo said:


> You legally have to disclose that information when selling your home... You can't sell a home with a finished basement if it was done without permits...


I'm not even sure that this is the law, and even if it is, that doesn't happen in practice. 

I could buy an apartment building that had been renovated top to bottom without permits, and would I know? Not unless I went looking for the information. (Yes, it's happened.)


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

What if a basement was finished without permits by a previous owner (not the current seller). Who would know that way? (unless the buyer asked and there was some detective work)


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> Nope. As long as you disclose that the work was done without permits it's akin to selling with an unfinished basement (and the price usually reflects that).


Linkie please.


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I find that buiding permit requirement a bit hard to swallow.

I did a major renovation about 20 years ago, got a building permit and had the inspections done.
I sure as heck don't have that paper work anymore - the township here has changed borders, name, the municipal offices have moved several times - do you really think they still have a record of that if I went looking.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Home inspections and permits mean nothing in a seller's market.

If you look closely at many listings, they'll specifically disclose that "retrofits are 'as is' and there are no implied warranties" which basically means the bathroom or basement was done by the home owner and/or without city permits by a third party. The only time a permit is necessary is when there are major structural changes to the house...such as an addition where the architectural plans may contravene city by-laws and therefore need approval prior to any work being performed. Retrofits of existing structures and spaces is not as stringent, provided they are brought up to current code. A permit under the latter scenario does not protect you from inferior work, it just indicates the work was done to minimal code requirements. 

If you have a rickety old garage and want to tare it down in order to build a new one, you'd need a permit, no ifs ands or buts, but if you are retrofitting a 30 year old bathroom you can get away with not getting a permit provided you bring it up to current code standards and you're not making structural changes (such as removing a load bearing wall). Most of these bathroom retrofits are cosmetic in nature, but need to be updated in proper placement and number of new GFI circuitry, plumbing vents, fans, etc.

Wait for your inspection and hope the inspector you hired knows what he/she is doing. I personally would not sweat the retrofits unless they are blatantly poor, shoddy and visibly not up to current code.

Also, if you do buy the home, do not attempt to obtain permit approval for these previous retrofits. You do not want to go down that road.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

kps said:


> home inspections and permits mean nothing in a seller's market.
> 
> If you look closely at many listings, they'll specifically disclose that "retrofits are 'as is' and there are no implied warranties" which basically means the bathroom or basement was done by the home owner and/or without city permits by a third party. The only time a permit is necessary is when there are major structural changes to the house...such as an addition where the architectural plans may contravene city by-laws and therefore need approval prior to any work being performed. Retrofits of existing structures and spaces is not as stringent, provided they are brought up to current code. A permit under the latter scenario does not protect you from inferior work, it just indicates the work was done to minimal code requirements.
> 
> ...


+100


----------



## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

*You must satisfy yourself*



G-Mo said:


> You legally have to disclose that information when selling your home... You can't sell a home with a finished basement if it was done without permits...


That is absolutely false. I sold l houses and appraised houses for 20 years or so. 

1. I estimate that perhaps 10% of basement renos had permits. They sold openly on the market. Apartments are another matter. Multi family housing conversion has serious safetly issures as you stretch out the utility of the existing systems.

2. The vendor has no obligation to declare. They do have an obligation not to deceive or lie. Realtors ask for disclosures from vendors and may give all sorts of reasons for it but the main reason is CYA. They want all responsibility and hence liability to lie with the vendor.

3. The purchaser does have an obligation to satisfy themselves. If you are spending a kazillion dollars, you do due diligence. Later on, if you do find that you have been hosed in some way, you also have an obligation to mitigate your losses. You cannot let a problem run rampant so that the house will fall down and you get to force the vendor to build you another.

4. If a vendor is forced to sign a disclosure I have long maintained that the proper disclosure is:

a.) I know nothing

b.) I hired this agent because I am firmly of the opinion that he knows less than me.

c.) Satisfy yourself.

d.) I warrant nothing.

See what the house inspector says. 

Your worries are primarilly 

- wiring (get yourself a polarity tester and test each plug yourself and see if the basement is on separate circuits or did they just cram off the existing when they did the work)

- plumbing (mainly wanting to assure yourself that it is properly vented. Leakage should be fairly self evident)

- structural (did they tamper with the main beam or bearing wall and if so, how).

If you want extra assurance, bring in your own carpenter, electrician and plumber.

Most work that I saw done by owners was actually of very good quality. There were very few jackpots and usually there would be signs. If they did one thing wrong, they most likely did everything wrong.

Do not even thing of asking for a guarantee that the property is up to current code. Codes change over time. There may be things in there that were absolutely top of the line as the time of construction (both of the original and the renos) that are no longer sanctioned.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

apihome appears none too concerned about checking in to read all of this sage advice.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

My concern would be if the house catches fire due to bad wiring or floods due to bad plumbing, will your insurance deny coverage if the work was not inspected?


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

My concern is that apihome has no interest in anything we might write.


----------



## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Okay, moving on without apihome....

Interesting that this subject arose as just the other day I had the final inspection cleared on my garage for the electrical. I talked to the inspector for a good while and we discussed a lot of what is being discussed here. Concerning home inspections he's surprised that more people here (Saskatchewan) don't call government guys like him rather than the privately run outfits. You can save about $200 or more by having a government electrical inspector, gas inspector and building inspector view the home vs all-in-one home inspection business guys. Plus if the business guy finds a trouble spot he can only "recommend" that something be done about it and the sale can go on without a hitch (if both sides still agree). If a government agent finds something that is not to code then he can legally demand that the repair be made and the house cannot be sold to anyone until such time that the repair is made.

So why wouldn't anyone go that route? Excuse #1 - it takes too long for the inspectors to show up. Baloney! Both times I called for my electrical inspection the inspector returned my call the same day and I had to wait no longer than 2 days. The last time I called he came that same afternoon. Excuse #2 - it's a seller's market and while waiting even 2 days for the inspector you might miss out on the buy. And? If I had any suspicions about the place I'd rather miss out than get stuck with a nightmare.

Like they say "Only fools rush in".


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

A quick look at the main box will usually tell you if there may be hidden electrical issues. 

Look for bigger than normal breakers on regular plug/lighting circuits. A sure indicator that the circuit is overloaded and the owner got tired of resetting the breaker.

Also look for breakers that have more than a single wire attached. A clear code violation and normally an attempt to avoid installing a bigger main service box.

Not the only things that can cause problems but people that make those basic mistakes probably made several others as well and those mistakes will almost certainly be hidden.


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I assume there official inspection records of some sort.
Where would these be kept and into how much detail do they go.

Say the basement is being refinished and the elctrical inspection os done. Does the inspector make a drawing or list that shows every outlet and light, and then ticks off every item individually?

Or forgetting about renovations, when you buy a new house or a resale, should the inspection reports that I assume were done when the house was originally built, be part of the sale package?
I have never seen one and I have bought and sold a few properties - everyone seems to be concerned about clear title and a valid survey.


----------



## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

krs said:


> I assume there official inspection records of some sort.
> Where would these be kept and into how much detail do they go.
> 
> Say the basement is being refinished and the elctrical inspection os done. Does the inspector make a drawing or list that shows every outlet and light, and then ticks off every item individually?


The inspector I dealt with stated that he had 3600 permits to inspect for this year alone. He estimates he will finalize maybe 1000. With that in mind I doubt there's much detail recorded in their average evaluation.

As for the permit's longevity on record, he told me that as far as he knows it stays in "the system forever".


----------



## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*globe article on permits*

the globe has an interesting article about building permits for renovations:
Renovating without a permit a costly mistake - The Globe and Mail


----------

