# Cuba and Sex Tourism: Bush Lied, Of Course...



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

While gagging on my dinner and choking on my indignant rage listening to Bu(ll)sh(it) accuse Cuba of trafficking in women and minors, the thought that he's going to try something in advance of the election moved further up my list of probable acts by a desperate regime.

So it is with some pleasure I discovered the following from the LA Times, which surprisingly went and did some actual journalistic research...



> In a hotel conference room in Tampa, Fla., on Friday, Bush told law enforcement officials that Fidel Castro was brazenly promoting sex tourism to Cuba.
> 
> "The dictator welcomes sex tourism. Here's how he bragged about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the cleanest and most educated prostitutes in the world.' "
> 
> ...


Source: LA Times. Abbreviated version of this article: Newsday. Turnbull's paper is available as a downloadable PDF.

So Bush uses a 12-year-old misquote of Castro to exacerbate a blatant lie about Cuba. He continues to exemplify the example of a dishonest, unethical power-hungry and unpleasant politician.

For other articles on this topic, visit the Canadian Network on Cuba.


M.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

As someone who has lived and worked in Cuba for long periods of time (versus just visiting, like most Canadians)...

And who has actually been engaged to a Cuban (a lady Doctor with no less than TWO PHD's, by the way) and who has, as a result, been allowed into the inner circle of a real Cuban family...

I would just like to point out the following facts:

Prostitution is VERY MUCH alive and well in Fidel's socialist workers paradise.

On many MANY occasions, I was approached by young...(sometimes VERY YOUNG) girls who asked me if I wanted to purchase sex for a shockingly low price.

Since I was already engaged to a breathtakingly beautiful lady who was far smarter and more interesting than I could ever imagine, and who I loved dearly, I always politely declined.

No way was I ever going to screw up the best relationship that I have ever had. Besides...why would a guy stop for a cheap snack when he was on the way to a fine evening out with the lady of his dreams?

Not me...I'm old enough to know better. I know when I have it good. And I know what would mess up this situatiuation, but GOOD.

Trust me on this.  

But they just kept on coming at me. All the time! Even when I was sitting with my beautiful fiancee at a pallidar! (what passes for a Cuban restaurant outside of Havana and the usual tourist areas)

Prostitution may be technically illegal in Cuba...but it's also rampant. It's EVERYWHERE!

The vast majority of the very well educated Cuban population chooses NOT to sell their bodies for money. Make NO mistake about this. They have class.

I have lived and worked all over Latin America. Cubans have earned my undying respect and admiration. They are, as a group, an outstanding people. They have far more class and self-respect than most anyone else I have met in Latin America. (I LOVE that place! So does anyone who has ever been there!)

But there are still thousands of young people who will do ANYTHING to get enough to eat each day...and can think of no other way to do so!

And...I met a whole BUNCH of guys who had come there just to enjoy that very treat. Lots of Canadians, quite a few Europeans (especially Germans) and even a few Americans. It was slightly disgusting.

I made efforts to distance myself from this crude behavior at every turn.

But I can't blame the slavering hordes from descending upon Cuba for this sordid pastime, after all.

The girls are breathtakingly beautiful...and the prices seem to be ridiculously cheap...and Fidel himself is well known for having a taste for fifteen year old teens.

The Canadian oil executive who I worked for in Cuba has some serious connections to the higher parts of the Cuban Government...and he claims he has witnessed a steady stream of young teenage girls pouring through Fidel's private quarters.

Apparently, this has been going on for the last forty years or so. Must be a perk of the office of "Absolute Leader" or something. (Completely disgusting, if you ask me).

Bottom line?

If Fidel wants to really damp down the rampant prostitution that seems to be such a big part of current Cuban life, then he should pay doctors and lawyers and other professionals more than a dollar per day.

Or...let the fees for the services of pretty much EVERYONE in the country slowly equalise with the rest of the world. (Chemical engineers get about thirty cents per day. A teacher or a masters degree geologist makes about fifty cents per day. A Medical Doctor makes a whole DOLLAR per day! WooHOO!!)

But...that would END his fabulously succcessful "revolution"...wouldn't it?

Free schooling (teachers make less than fifty cents per day) and free medical care (Doctors make about a dollar per day) would suddenly END, if things became real in Cuba, the day after tomorrow.

Or...they could just keep things as they are.

And deal with the fact that many well educated professionals...and pretty much ALL of the people who are NOT well-educated... will end up selling their bodies in order to the highest bidder in order to get enough food to live, day-to-day.

Because they are not given enough ration cards by Fidel's Revolutionary Government to allow them enough food to really survive. They go to bed hungry each night.

They must put up with this, and put up with the cries of their hungry children...every single day of the year, with no hope in sight...

Or they will get together with their friends and family and cobble together some sort of a water-borne craft in order to float themselves out of this so-called worker's paradise.

THAT is the cruel reality of life in Cuba.

Live without a telephone, a computer, a car..and never hope for anything more. Go to bed hungry every single night of your life. Even if you are a Doctor!

Or...Sell your body on the street to foreigners for cash money. In order to get enough real money to feed yourself and your family. (We are talking American Dollars here. Cuban Pesos are worthless...even in Cuba.)

Or...strap yourself to an inner tube and launch yourself toward Florida to escape the madness and despair. Along with all of your family and all of your neighbors.

Such is life in Fidel Castro's continuing revolution.   

No wonder that everyone is trying to LEAVE..and NO ONE is trying to get IN! 









[ July 28, 2004, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Hrmm...interesting...do you think that the economic sanctions that the US has imposed on the country have anything to do with the dire situation faced by Cubans?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Not a bit.

Cuba trades openly with more than 175 nations on this planet. Anbd you can legally buy anything you want to in Cuba at "US Dollar Stores" (owned by Fidel and family).

I bought a brand new Panasonic TV set for my fiancee's family in a town very far from the bright lights of Havana. But I had to do it with US dollars (Cuban Pesos, as noted earlier, are pretty much useless...even in Cuba)

When in Havana, I noted that you can buy pretty much anything you want with US dollars in all sorts of stores (All of which are owned by Fidel and Co.). Reebok Sneakers, Big Screen TV sets, any sort of hair care product...you name it. Everything is there. 

I even bought Pepsi at a fast food place in Havana. Legally.

The so-called embargo is a huge pile of steaming crap. It only exists to allow Fidel to explain away some of the many shortages to sympathetic foregners.

Cubans know the real truth about this scam.

Perhaps that's why tens of thousands of them are busily working to escape this socialist paradise each and every year, and bypass all of the nonsense that Castro has forced upon them in the name of the "glorious revolution".

Gee...do ya think?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I bought a brand new Panasonic TV set for *my fiancee's* family


do my eyes deceive me?
is the nuttster getting hitched?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

BTW...George W. Bush didn't lie about the sex tourism at all.

Not one little bit.


Don't believe me? Then go there and see for yourself.

But you'll have to spend some serious time AWAY from the established resorts of Varadero and Havana (and Coco Cay, etc.) in order to find the truth.

Cubans, after all, are rather scared of telling foreigners how it REALLY is in their wasted country. You have to live there long enough to gain their trust.

It takes a while.

If they speak the wrong words to the wrong people, they risk a LONG jail sentence, after all.

But they will try to sell you sex. Probably right after you get off the plane.

And you would be foolish to think that Fidel isn't getting his cut of this trade.

He has a chunk of EVERYTHING that happens in this country, after all.

The whole place belongs to him, after all.

That's certainly how the Cubans see it. And they're not too happy about that, when all is said and done.

Change is in the air. Watch and see.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

So, if it's a total failure why continue with it? It hasn't worked since 1961 and it's only contributing to the misery of the population. BTW, how do u explain Batista?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

No, Michael. That relationship ended almost three years ago. I have said as much in my posts here.

I couldn't get her out of Cuba no matter WHAT I did. And, BOY did I try!

She is an outstanding Doctor and Fidel just won't let her go.

Even if I married her and she had a Canadian exit visa and if we had three kids together, she would STILL be denied permisiion to leave. No way she was getting out of that island prison.

I paid out big bribes, played golf with top Cuban officials at some of the luxury estates that are secreted away across that impovershed land (and let them win), and found them a whole BUNCH of oil that they didn't know they had. For a few years, I was a serious asset to Cuba. I rubbed shoulders with the Cuban Revolutionary Elite (the RICH GUYS).

But..after all of that...she STILL wasn't leaving. No way.

No way in hell.

So we split up. It wasn't one of my happier moments.

And I will cheer louder than anyone else when that old despot finally breathes his last and those noble people are finally free to make their own way in the world.

They certainly deserve it.

Especially a certain lady doctor who has worked long and hard ever since she was in her mid teens.

And who didn't even have a telephone or a TV set or a car until I showed up.

Cubans are long overdue for a bit of bright light in their drab and desperate lives. Here's hoping that they get it in the next year or two.

Like about ten million Cubans, I'm praying that Fidel dies. SOON!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Ironmac...

You have no idea.

Fidel Castro and his henchmen hold the whole country at the point of a gun. Just like the old Soviet Union.

There is no "free vote". Not on ANY subject!

But Fidel DOES somehow manage to get 100% of the vote 100% of the time. Odd about that. eh?

People live in fear of saying the wrong thing and of doing the wrong thing. They can't even travel to other parts of the country without written permission (Although things are sometimes pretty slack because even the police and military are often reduced to hitchiking to their posts because of the shortages of fuel and vehicles...and there aren't many cars outside of the capital city).

If you are charged with a crime in Cuba, you will almost certainly go to jail. The courts are run by Fidel (just like everything else). Jail terms for questioning the revolution are typically in the ten to twenty year range and EVERYONE knows someone who has been sent to prison.

SEPSA...the Secret Police...show up in the middle of the night and haul people off to jail all of the time. Sometimes whole families. I have seen this with my own eyes.

Cuba has more political prisoners per capita than China or North Korea. Check any Human Rights website if you don't believe me.

On the other hand, Canadians and other foreigners get away with anything short of murder...and can go anywhere they want.

Cubans live under horrific restrictions. And eat from rationing cards. Unless they are somehow connected to the tourist trade.

It's not like anywhere you've ever been. Or would ever like to live.

Trust me on this.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

macnutt,

Macnutt,
your character begins to make some sense to me now you have explained your past a little. I would like to know something though....why do you think the American government hasn't overthrown Castro ?
The way you describe him and his regime it sounds very much like Hussein and, well, we all know what happened there.

Would it, excuse me if I speak out of turn here, be because Cuban doesn't have the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world ?

I really don't want to get into a whole arguement about justification and such, I have read all your posts from the MM post. I'm just curious to know your thoughts on why Saddam Hussein and not Castro without talking about threats to the free world because with all the latest reports it would appear that never regime was in anyway a threat to the 'free' world.

Keep up the good work by the way....I find your posts (although I'm not in total agreement with everything you say) I find them informative and often very amusing.

oh...sorry, I'm rambling,also I was wandering why would Bush singled out Cuba on his "War On Prostitution" ? I have been to Thailand and Holland (I was so ashamed of the way people thought the only reason I was there was to have sex) and was just curious as to why you think other nations weren't mentioned by Bush ?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

sadly, suffice it to say;
"With communism, man abuses man. With capitalism it's the other way around."

the gross extension of either theory has led to the death and suffering of millions over the last 100 years

i think that Canada with a, for lack of a better phrasae, "socialized capitalism" is and will be the model in the future

businesses still prosper and people suffer less, unlike what right wing think tanks (read: schills for the corporate agenda) would want you to believe

even the stronachs seems to be doing well

with a reasonably healthy and well fed society, the urge for unstability, and therefore the need to surpress prospective revolution, lightens the long term financial burden
never mind the need for respoinsible foreign policy (read: not meddling for corporate gain) that pre-empts the need for massive military spending that can be much better put to use on social programs (read: not having to choose between rent and Rx drugs)

a happy population is a good long term goal for prosperity and peace in a country and that's for all the population, not just 95% of it

in today's age of instant gratification and just in time delivery, the need for speed (read: runaway capitalism) somehow outweighs the need for a social conscience

runaway capitalism kills off all but the fittest
how many of us can claim to be the fittest?
[/end rant]


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

When the border was closed between Hong Kong and China 85% of those who "escaped" went back.
Why?? At least they could count on food and housing in China.

MacNutt conveniently forgets the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. 1 in 10 of its citizens are involved directly or indirectly in law enforcement.

He still thinks wealth is high property values.

A stable, healthy educated society where extreme gradients between haves and have nots are reduced IS the common weal.
Opportunity without exploitation.
Canada's mix is pretty good, can always be better.

I'm VERY impressed with McGuinty's progress is rebuilding Ontario infrastructure. He's taking a 30 year view and that's what it will take for renewal and to accommodate the upcoming growth.

Cleaning out the abcess left by the PCs gets more odiferous every time new rock is turned over.  
They weren't the only villians in letting Ontario drift, just the last of them.

I've always found it amusing that the US could trade with China and not Cuba. Can we say "hypocrisy".

Fidel's final act should be to have a vote to have Cuba join Canada as our 11th province  
We need the sun, they need a friend in the G8.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*Fidel's final act should be to have a vote to have Cuba join Canada as our 11th province *

!

If this were to happen, shouldn't they be a territory?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Pretty damn big territory. Traditionally territories are thinly populated with an undeveloped infrstraucture and government.

Cuba would be about the size of Quebec in population with a GDP of approximately 40 billion Cdn dollars.

I'm only slightly tongue in cheek here.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> have Cuba join Canada as our 11th province


canada missed a grand opportunity when Turks and Cacos were interested in becoming a Cdn. province

good bye florida, hello Caribbean
and health care to boot
would have been a brilliant move

recoup cdn. tax dollars leaving the country in the form of snow birds
warm weather retirement and vacation spot for canadians in cdn. dollars.... 

i never have head a good reason for why the cdn. gov't didn't let them join (sigh)


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I am stunned by the vitriol that spews from Salt Spring Island. Gerry, I would not discount your personal experiences, however, neither can I reconcile what you say that you've experienced with my own experiences, my research, and the reality that my Cuban friends experience. 

Your association with "higher ups" at "luxury estates" is, to say the least, an interesting tale. These places do exist, it's true - constructed prior to the Revolution and maintained in many cases as multiple-family housing, schools, cultural institutes and in some cases maintained for recreation- and not reserved for the "elite" (a concept which one might be able to apply to the nouveau-riche bartenders and taxi drivers in the tourist industry, but not in any serious way to government ministers or bureaucrats). Cubans wouldn't stand for it.

On the matter of sex tourism, it seems that only you and a few deluded souls (and I use that term loosely) in Washington, Texas and Miami believe in that fantasy. Wayne Smith, former (8 years) U.S. top diplomat in Havana is one person who says it's bullsh*t. Saul Landau, a filmmaker and author, says ditto. There is no evidence that the Cuban government encourages or supports prostitution, and mountains of evidence that it has been doing everything possible to counter the emergence of prostitution as an economic choice for women. 

I am reminded of the first spectre of this slander in the early-to-mid-1990s, when the economy was in its most profound crisis. Prostitutes had reappeared on the streets of Havana for the first time in over 30 years. Cuba took its time formulating a response. Even the Federation of Cuban Women had difficulty, not wanting to impinge on women's personal rights, but also seeing the disastrous image prostitution was bringing back to Cuba.

So prostitution appeared in Cuba. U.S. critics said "Castro is selling Cuban women!". Then Cuba finally passed laws to deal with solicitation. The critics responded with "Castro is repressing Cuban women!" There's just no pleasing some people. 

Those who criticize Cuba for the phenomenon of prostitution are also, in my book *damn hypocrites* for holding Cuba to a different standard than the rest of the world.

Bush seems to be unaware that there are prostitutes in America. Funny, you'd think he'd know that from his time in the military... oh, waitaminute, _what time in the military?_ (Note that I do not intend to slander all servicepeople with the insinuation that military types are more frequent clients of prostitutes than the general public... oh, who am I kidding?).

He might also drop in on a little state they call NEVADA.

The incidence of sex tourism in Cuba pales to the levels of prostitution that exist in the United States. And Pedophilia? The Cubans I know would put aside their usual high moral ground and use bare hands to strangle any sonuvab**ch ****** who came to the island looking for kids. You do not mess with Cubans and their children, man.

BTW, the legislation Cuba did eventually pass to deal with prostitution criminalized the PIMPS, not the prostitutes. This is somewhat the reverse of North America's apprach t the problem.

Your hearsay slander of Fidel and the insinuations about children do not merit a response. Despicable.

And I see you have once again resurrected the red herring that is the illegal emigrant Cubans who attempt to cross the Florida Strait to reach U.S. shores. So a couple of thousand Cubans try to reach the U.S., where *they are given instant citizenship, no questions asked*, and thus you say they are escaping "Castro's tyranny." I guess that means that the *tens of thousands* of latin americans who cross into the U.S. every year from Mexico are escaping capitalist tyrannies? I mean, they must be even more desperate to leave, considering that many of them *die* while walking across the open desert and, if they are caught, are shipped back across the border... where they try again, and again, and again. Those people don't have the magnetic draw of the *Cuban Adjustment Act*, so why do they risk their lives?

I continue to be amazed at your inability to grasp basic macroeconomics in your dismissal of the reality of the U.S. economic embargo of Cuba. Yes, you can buy darn near anything in Havana, if you have the money. But how does Cuba obtain those goods?

- under the embargo, any ship that makes port in Cuba is not permitted to land at a U.S. port for six months, effectively rendering standard shipping lines unavailable.
<ul>

[*] non-standard shipping adds, it is conservatively estimated, another 1-billion dollars annually. That's not peanuts. 

[*] Foreign-based subsidiaries of U.S. companies are forbidden from trading with Cuba. In the area of technology, such as medical gear, this is a serious impediment. 

[*] Cuba's ability to use U.S. dollars on world markets is impinged by Washington's pressure.. a Swiss bank was recently fined several hundred million dollars for doing currency transactions with Cuba. 

[*] For Cuba's neighbours, it has long been documented that the U.S. has placed heavy diplomatic pressure with the goal of isolating the island. Some Central American nations were told point-blank: Trade with Cuba, and kiss your development aid goodbye. 
[/list]
The simple fact that the right-wing crazies claim there is no embargo indicates to me that (a) they have no credibility when it comes to formulating economic policy, and (b) they make zero sense when arguing that the embargo must be maintined, since they claim it does nothing. D'uh!

Anyway. We've been over this a zillion times before, so why bother doing it again.... 








For those who are interested in a Canadian perspective on Cuba, I highly recommend Isaac Saney's recent book, "Cuba: A Revolution in Motion" which sold out its first run in the U.S., and has been adopted by several U.S. university classes as a foundation text.

<font size="1">EDITED TO FIX LITTLE TYPOS</font>

M.

[ July 29, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: CubaMark ]


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

......or simply go there. Warm beaches and every friend that has gone has said, a very warm welcome.  

Cuba has the only remaining pristine coral reefs - having been protected from exploitation and over fishing.

The Bush family on the other hand sees no problem in continuing to profit off the mehaden fishery which is destroying the Chesapeake Bay and other east coast fisheries even tho it's a use equivalent of soy.
It's a little cheaper to scoop up the irreplaceable food stock that is the bae of the food chain for larger species than to GROW totally renewable soy.  

Talk about prostituting....and rape. The US mega corps have no equal when it comes to the planet's resources.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Saney's book is available for $19.95, for those interested. Distribution in Canada is by Fernwood Books, while U.S. distribution is in the hands of Palgrave Books.

Here's a relevant excerpt:


> The emergence of prostitution in the 1990s, against the backdrop of the island’s extensive development of tourism, has elicited much discussion. President Castro has outlined the associated problems on several occasions:
> 
> "Our country is already being visited by nearly two million tourists [annually]. In general, these are respectable people, mostly Canadians and Europeans with exemplary behaviour. But there are always visitors, from various places, who travel for sex. Our people, particularly our children and teenagers must be protected, all the more so since the outbreak of diseases such as AIDS has led unscrupulous people seeking safe pleasure to believe that eleven, ten, eight- or seven-year-old boys or girls pose a lower threat than an adult. And there is always someone willing to push such services. We have also hardened our sentences against procuring, particularly against the corruption of minors. All the gold in the world is worth less than the purity and dignity of a Cuban boy or girl." (Castro 2000: 243–44).
> 
> ...


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Hmmm, the endless Macnutt-CubaMark ehMac Cuba debates continue.

Strange we have one person, who has spent a lot of time in Cuba saying one thing about the country and another who has also spent a lot of time in Cuba saying just the opposite. How do we, who don't have first hand experience, decide whose description is more accurate?

Well, one seems to back up his arguments with "I knew a guy who was well connected and *he* claims..." while the other makes reasoned arguments, quotes facts, provides links to them and the names of authors and others that back up his assertions. 

Hmmm ... who should we believe?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Considering how easy it is to poke holes in one of their arguments, I know which side I'd lean towards.

BTW, macnutt...went to Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International...they did not have Cuban political prisoners numbers freely available. If you could point me to info backing up your assertion about the number of political prisoners per capita that would be great. Thanks.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

The incarceration rate in Cuba is vastly higher than it is in the USA. (and most of the Cuban prisoners aren't incarcerated for theft or assault..they are sitting in the slammer because they disagree with their current government. And have dared to say so in public)

But getting real figures about how many prisoners there are in Cuba is rather troublesome, because it is a one-man-rule state, after all.

And that one man wants to put the very best face on his failed revolution, after all.

While tens of thousands of his subjects work VERY hard to flee from his socialist paradise every single year since he siezed power.

Tens of thousands risk life and limb to escape from Cuba every year....while hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world (and that includes more than fifty thousand Canadians every year) do everything they can to enter the USA for a better life.

Many of them try several times, until they finally manage to gain entry.

Oddly...we never seem to hear about hordes of people rowing themselves away from the USA in ratty boats to escape the political climate or persecution. Do we.

Those of us who have lived in both the US and Cuba for extended periods know just EXACTLY why this is. It's abundandtly clear to any thinking person who isn't completely blinded by preconcieved ideological notions.

Perhaps the rest of you need to give your heads a shake and take a deep breath before looking at this situation once again.

Just a thought.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> The incarceration rate in Cuba is vastly higher than it is in the USA.


it's 3 percent in the USA. what is 'vastly highter' than 3 percent?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

> But getting real figures about how many prisoners there are in Cuba is rather troublesome, because it is a one-man-rule state, after all.


So, you really can't back up what you've said about political prisoners right? *sigh*


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Just wanna get this straight.

Macnutt said:


> Cuba has more political prisoners per capita than China or North Korea. Check any Human Rights website if you don't believe me.


Then IronMac said:


> BTW, macnutt...went to Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International...they did not have Cuban political prisoners numbers freely available. If you could point me to info backing up your assertion about the number of political prisoners per capita that would be great. Thanks.


Then Macnutt said:


> The incarceration rate in Cuba is vastly higher than it is in the USA. ... But getting real figures about how many prisoners there are in Cuba is rather troublesome, because it is a one-man-rule state, after all.


But as Macnutt said in his first post in this thread:


> I would just like to point out the following *facts:* ... (a few paragraphs of personal opinion and anecdotes, and then) ... Trust me on this.


Hmmm ... maybe I better throw off those ol' ideological blinders of mine and just learn to trust. I mean, what did CubaMark present, except a bunch of quotes, references, footnotes, links, and rational argument anyway. How can that possibly stand up to the blinding truth of *"Trust me on this"?*


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> How can that possibly stand up to the blinding truth of "Trust me on this"?


aye laddie, that's the Lagavulin weaving its magic....

*In Macnutt we trust?*

might as well be God

[ July 30, 2004, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: MACSPECTRUM ]


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*The incarceration rate in Cuba is vastly higher than it is in the USA.*

Some incarceration rates I have found:

Stalin's Russia vs. contemporary America.

USSR (1950): ~1425 per 100,000
USA (2002): ~2300 per 100,000

Incarceration rate for Black Men in Contemporary America and in South Africa before ANC rule.

South Africa (1993): ~850 per 100,000
USA (2002): ~7150 per 100,000

I can't find a link directly to these numbers, but here is a table with sources listed.

I did some googling around for information about Cuba's incarceration rate, the newest number I've found so far is ~300 per 100,000 in 1997. Far, far lower than than the rate per 100,000 in the USA.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

In fairness to MacNutt, he is talking about political prisoners and not about the general incarceration rate.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

True enough. 

Are there _any_ political prisoners in the USA?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

On the matter of prisons and incarceration rates...

Inside Cuba's prisons


> The goal of the Cuban prison system is to return people to the community as productive contributors as soon as possible. Therefore the focus is not on punishment, but rather on rehabilitation and re-education. Perhaps this goal would be a useful addition to the prison system that has evolved in the United States.


M.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"any political prisoners in the USA"....no they are kept in Cuba........ironic eh.









" Perhaps this goal would be a useful addition to the prison system that has evolved in the United States"

too much money to be made......prison labour AND private prisons......how disgusting can it get.???
The stats for California on prison spending versus education are appalling.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

My esteemed colleague, CubaMark has spent a good deal of his spare time in Cuba. Of that there is no doubt.

He has a real love for the island and it's people. Of that, there is also no doubt. None whatsover.

But he has never lived there. He may have done some good charitible work there (of this we have no doubt, as well)...but he has never called that island home, for months or years at a stretch, or derived his primary income from work he performed within it's iron-gated borders.

And ALL of his contact with Cuba has been through Canadian/Cuban "friendship organisations" that are run by groups that have strong connections to Fidel and his revolution.

There is no doubt about THAT, as well. 

And I'm betting that he was never engaged to a Cuban National for several years. Or accepted into her family. Or confided in by same family about how things REALLY are in that wasted excuse for a country that masquerades as a social experiment in progress.

Or equally accepted by a large group of friends of that family (of doctors and engineers) as a long term member who could be trusted with the truth.

I recall a teacher friend of mine who was terribly interested in the Soviet Union, back in the late seventies. He was always visiting Russia back then. Went several times each year, for weeks at a time.

He used to come back with glowing accounts of how wonderful the place was. Of how well-managed the resources were and of how all of the people were working toward a commmon goal of total equality. Wonderful schools, free hospitals, a better WAY...in every way.

Or so he thought.

But...then again...when he visited the Soviet Union, he was ALWAYS a special guest of INTOURIST. Which was an integral part of the tyrannical government that ran that empire with an iron fist. They only ever showed him the very best that they had, and carefully guided him on his daily travels. Often when he wasn't even aware that they were doing so.

It was an important part of the complex propaganda machine that was churning out clever lies for more than seventy years. Just to cover what was really happenning in the Soviet Union.

And...for some people...especially the ones who really 
_WANTED_ to believe..it actually WORKED!

For a while, anyway.

But then the whole rotten system collapsed under the weight of it's own massive failures.

And...in case you are wondering... my friend has been back to Russia many times since the total collapse of communism.

He has had his eyes opened to the true reality.He now sees the truth..and some of the very same people who used to cheerfully lie to him about that land are now tearfully confessing the truth. He now knows that he was duped...in a very big way. By a carefully controlled government propaganda machine.

And he doesn't like to talk about it much, these days.

He still loves that country, and he says there is much hope for the future these days. I tend to agree with him.

At least NOW I do...I sure didn't feel this way about that place twenty five years ago. Back then, it was dead in the water and busily lying about pretty much everything, in order to cover all of the failures. Back then.

And throwing massive numbers of it's own people into jail for questioning the failed system. Failing and dying and lying about it.

Just like Cuba is, today.

ALL of the former commmunist countries have similar tales of the final days of this dead-end system. It is a litany of grief all around. And terrible times for the poor citizens who were forced to endure this particular horror.

They plod through each day in grim determination. Half starved and bereft of all hope. Living with the certain knowledge that to speak out against the elite who hold them at the point of a gun is to risk losing what lttle they still have.

Prison, in a communist country, is a very special sort of hell, after all. And they all know someone who has been sent there for simply speaking out and questioning the terrible state of affairs in their own country. Especially in public.

In Cuba... the cool of the evening...after the day's labours are over, they sit back to watch the sun set ...and stroke their chins to simulate a beard (they dare not even utter Fidel's name out loud, even in the privacy of their own homes)..and they quietly say to themselves..." _Someday...SOMEDAY_ "

Someday, indeed. Someday soon, I hope.

Someday, our good friend and colleague CubaMark will finally realise just how badly he has been duped and misled, by a carefully organised government propaganda machine, into believing that a scam is reality. And that people who live every day of their lives in fear, are actually really happy where they are.

Despite the fact that thousands of Cuban citizens risk life and limb to escape from the place, every single year. Across hostile waters. On anything that will float.

Reality will eventually rear it's ugly head, and Cuba will experience the very same sort of massive change that all of the other communist countries have gone through in recent years. Fidel and his whole rotten system will be consigned to the ash-heap of history. And will be forgotten.

History will NOT "redeem him".

And I dearly hope that Mark and I will somehow remain friends after all of this has transpired. 

Because THAT is when Cuba will truly begin to find it's own place in the world. THAT is when it will begin to show how truly special and capable it really is. THAT is when the people of Cuba will begin to have a real future filled with hope of a better life for themselves, and for the next generation.

Someday. Someday soon.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Three days later and CubaMark has still not replied to this post.

Can't say as I blame him. Reality is a very cruel taskmaster, after all. It pulls no punches.

MUCH better to stick with the simplistic fantasy, instead.







 

Back to the subject of this thread....

Fidel has, by his own economic mismanagement of the country, actively encouraged widespread prostitution in Cuba.

Of this, there is no doubt. Go there and see for yourself, if you want to.

Fidel Castro takes a serious cut of EVERY single money making enterprise in the whole country of Cuba.

THIS is also not in any doubt (but, you may have to spend some serious time there to confirm this for yourself. It takes awhile to become trusted in a closed communist society.)

Foreign tourist dollars are the single BIGGEST source of real cash that the Castro Government has had, ever since the Russians pulled out more than a decade ago. 

And foreign tourist dollars are spent in a VERY big way for some of the more earthy pleasures in Cuba. This is NOT a secret to anyone. The place is a veritable brothel these days. 

And Fidel is well know to be a major fan of some of the more fleshy pleasures of this politically isolated and terribly poor tropical isle, as well. For...oh about...forty years or so now.

So, is it a terribly big leap to imagine that Fidel is getting some sort of a cut from all of this physical activity?

Or that he doesn't privately condone this massive influx of US dollars into his closed and carefully controlled (and totally BROKE) economy?

Still believe that Fidel doesn't actively encourage sex tourism in Cuba??

Too funny.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Several days later and macnutt still has no numbers to back up his earlier assertion about the number of political prisoners in Cuba.

Also, while Cuba is allowed to freely trade with over a hundred countries around the world, what is the effect of being barred from the world's largest economy that looms just over the horizon? I don't expect a sensible answer (or any answer, truth to tell) from macnutt but what would be the effect on his own water business if it was not allowed to sell water to people on Salt Spring Island but only to mainland customers?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Ironmac...and anyone else who happens to be reading this post...

Cuba trades openly and freely with almost ALL of the Nations on the face of this earth. With NO restrictions. None!

You can buy almost ANY item you want to in Cuba. Legally. In Government owned (Fidel owned) stores. Any time you want to.


But you HAVE to buy this stuff with American Dollars. Cuban Pesos are totally worthless in these Cuban Govenment stores. 

They are also totally useless when any Cuban citizen goes to pay their electric bill. To Fidel and Co.

Don't pay him in American dollars, and your already spotty electrical service ceases altogether.

The "Embargo" is a silly farce that is perpetuated by a dying regime to explain away all of it's manifold failings.

It makes good press for some of the more sympathetic leftish types in the rest of the civilised world. It gives them another excuse to forgive Fidel and his totally failed "Revolution".

And another reason to hate the USA.

But it is NOT the reality of the situation. Not by half.

Want Nike sneakers? Want a Panasonic TV set with a five foot wide screen? Want the latest refrigerator? A case of Pepsi? Want a brand new DVD player?

It's all available.

At Cuban Government stores owned by Fidel and Co. 

Legally. In Cuba. Right here and now.

BUT.....you have to buy this stuff with US dollars.

Don't believe me? Then go there and see for yourself.

Embargo? WHAT embargo!!??

It's a JOKE. 

Just like Fidel Castro's failed government.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt:

A. _Cuba trades openly and freely with almost ALL of the Nations on the face of this earth. With NO restrictions. None!_

You seem to ignore (or don't know) that while Cuba welcomes trade with everyone else on the planet, that's not necessarily true of everyone else. In fact, the US embargo (or the Mack Amendment of 1990) can propose sanctions or cessation of aid to any country that buys sugar or other products from Cuba.

In order words, the US can punish any nation that trades with Cuba. This is the world's economic powerhouse but you should have gotten the idea by now. I don't need to play connect-the-dots do I?

B. _The "Embargo" is a silly farce that is perpetuated by a dying regime to explain away all of it's manifold failings. _

When I read this I thought you were talking about the American government! LOL








So, why doesn't the US get rid of it? Huh? Could it be that the American government wants to prop up Castro as a convenient "Communist bogeyman right off our shores"?

BTW, where are those political prisoner numbers you were touting?

[ August 06, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: IronMac ]


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

MacNutt,

Do not assume that my reluctance to pounce on and reply to everything you write is evidence that I have no answer to your (inaccurate) charges. The reality is simple: I grow weary of continuing to post the same information, backed up with documentation, that counters your allegations. But you have apparently learned, as has the "right wing," that repetition will eventually create a 'truth' in the minds of those who listen inattentively. This is where the "left" fails: rarely do we have the stamina to continue speaking truth to volume.

Now, once more, and finally, for the record:

*Cuba trades openly and freely with almost ALL of the Nations on the face of this earth. With NO restrictions. None!*

Again, I say that your comprehension of global economics appears limited.


Effects of the U.S. Embargo on CubaAlternatives, 7 Oct. 2003.
The Effects of the U.S. Embargo on CubaCETIM 2003
The Impact Of The U.S. Embargo On The Health And Nutrition In Cuba American Association for World Health Report 
Tightening the screws on Cuba


> The embargo does more than cut off American trade. It seeks to prevent all other commerce as well. Under the ever tightening restrictions, no ship that loads or unloads anything in a Cuban port can dock in America for six months. Food and medicine have been restricted. Foreign companies that do business with Cuba are discouraged or even prohibited from doing business in the United States. In other words, even though no other nations agree with our Cuba policy, we bludgeon them into acquiescing. Sound familiar?
> 
> Those measures are sinking to new levels of meanness under the Bush administration. Eager to curry the Miami extremist vote, the administration has eliminated all "people-to-people" cultural exchanges and university-related educational travel. Customs agents at airports in Canada, Mexico, and other third-country way stations have been alerted to nab any American tourists who might try to end-run the travel restrictions. The enforcement branch of the Treasury Department has beefed up its anti-Cuba surveillance, devoting 21 full-time employees to enforcing the Cuban embargo and travel ban. Only four track the finances of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.





*You can buy almost ANY item you want to in Cuba. Legally. In Government owned (Fidel owned) stores. Any time you want to.*

The variety of goods has improved in the past 20 years, and if you have access to U.S. dollars, you can of course purchase those goods from the Dollar Stores, owned by the Government of Cuba (not owned personally by Fidel, despite your repetition of that fantasy).

*
But you HAVE to buy this stuff with American Dollars. Cuban Pesos are totally worthless in these Cuban Govenment stores. 
*

Of course you have to buy it with American Dollars. Cuba has to have U.S. dollars in order to purchase those goods on the world markets. How else is Cuba going to obtain U.S. greenbacks? Particularly when the U.S. imposes huge fines against banks, companies and individuals who put those dollars into Cuban hands?

Cuban pesos are perfectly useful in the majority of stores in Cuba, where the goods necessary for basic needs are available. Pesos are used to buy food at government grocery stores, farmer's markets, etc.

*
They are also totally useless when any Cuban citizen goes to pay their electric bill. To Fidel and Co.*

Despite your repetition of this falsehood, it has not come true since the last time you posted it. Cubans pay their electrical bills in pesos, not dollars. Since only %20-%30 of Cubans even have access to U.S. dollars, such a scheme would be impossible. This is disinformation, plain and simple, on your part.

And to return to the original thread of this post, to remind those still reading, U.S. President George W. Bush lied to America when he said that Cuba was promoting child sex tourism. He mis-quoted a ten-year old paper written by an undergraduate student who has since admitted that he didn't have a source for his original quote (nor did he realize that such things were supposed to be 'cited'). Even the mainstream press has since exposed the lies of Bush, and pointed out that Alabama is far more deserving of the title "Child Sex Tourism Destination of the Year." Even the mainstream press has revealed that Cuba has been actively working to address the negative impact of prostitution which came into existence in Cuba after a 30-year absence.

So if you care to comment on this matter again, fine, but stay on topic: BUSH LIED ABOUT CUBA SEX TOURISM.

 
M


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