# Terrorist Cells in Canada



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060603.wwarrants0603_3/BNStory/National/home

Does anybody really have any doubts that we could be a target of home grown terrorism?


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Interesting to say the least. Home grown terrorism? Scary indeed. What is so wrong with our country that it warrants this? Some people need their heads examined.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


----------



## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

guytoronto said:


> Interesting to say the least. Home grown terrorism? Scary indeed. What is so wrong with our country that it warrants this? Some people need their heads examined.


Nothing, despite our vast differences across the land and some examples of things I'd like to our country be better global citizens about, we are a good and generous country. We pose no threat to anyone unless they pose a threat to us through demonstrated actions.
I don't get it, I guess it's the company we keep to the south. Guilty by association.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Vandave said:


> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060603.wwarrants0603_3/BNStory/National/home
> 
> Does anybody really have any doubts that we could be a target of home grown terrorism?


Yes and no. 

What I like to know, is who are those arrested, the article doesn't say and I don't want to speculate at this point. I will say that we (Canada) are a very, very "soft" target for anyone determined enough.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

iPetie said:


> Nothing, despite our vast differences across the land and some examples of things I'd like to our country be better global citizens about, we are a good and generous country. We pose no threat to anyone unless they pose a threat to us through demonstrated actions.
> I don't get it, I guess it's the company we keep to the south. Guilty by association.


I guess you missed the Taliban Commander's threats to kill Canadians "one by one".


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I've been warning about this for YEARS. Whenever I mentioned it I was scoffed at and told I was paranoid. One person suggested I look for boogymen under my bed too. This is something I'm not happy to be right about. It sounds like the info I had from a lovely Pakistani woman was bang on. She told me right after the 9/11 episode there were those right here in the GTA who held similar beliefs. She said young Canadian born men were being brainwashed to hate by some individuals.

If they nabbed 17 persons you can bet there are more. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

iPetie said:


> I don't get it, I guess it's the company we keep to the south. Guilty by association.


I don't think so. This is an issue that has affected most European countries. For example in Holland, a terrorist cell killed a filmmaker and his cell planned to kill some MPs. France has had some issues as well. Neither of these two countries are directly associated with the US. 

Spain, England, Russia and Bali have all had terrorist attacks carried out by Muslim Extremists.

Ahmed Rassam considered blowing up a Jewish neighbourhood in Montreal before finalizing plans to attack the airport in LA. This was well before the current turmoil in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't see the terrorisms acting is response to specific actions by the US or the West. I think they are brainwashed first with an evil idiology. They are taught that the Liberal Democracies are evil and that our lifestyles are evil. That makes us a target.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

kps said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> What I like to know, is who are those arrested, the article doesn't say and I don't want to speculate at this point. I will say that we (Canada) are a very, very "soft" target for anyone determined enough.


Their names and ages are listed in some articles.


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Vandave said:


> Their names and ages are listed in some articles.


Yep, and surprise, surprise, look at their names - they're all foreign sounding (if they're Canadian, chances are theie parents or grandparents aren't). They sound like they're all middle-easterners. No surprise there. No racism intended, either, but how many Canadian or U.S.-born Jakes, Toms, or Sarah's plan terrorist attacks? The other side world really does have a problem with us.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Lars said:


> Yep, and surprise, surprise, look at their names - they're all foreign sounding (if they're Canadian, chances are theie parents or grandparents aren't). They sound like they're all middle-easterners. No surprise there. No racism intended, either, but how many Canadian or U.S.-born Jakes, Toms, or Sarah's plan terrorist attacks? The other side world really does have a problem with us.


No surprise that Muslim extremists have Muslim names.

But I don't agree terrorism is limited to Muslims. For example, Tim McVay was a christian with an anti-government idiology.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Scary indeed. What is so wrong with our country that it warrants this? Some people need their heads examined.


Hey, you should be happy, we can now fear the Islamist terrorists - nothing like a little propaganda to tweak our fear level. 

Invading another country and killing it's citizens in one reason some may be mad. Going from peacekeepers to warmakers another.

Scary for you, because you are the target audience, it makes me laugh - how long until our colour coded terror alerts?

When will the Liberals get blamed for this?


And remember, they are not convicted yet, the investigations were started during the Liberals time in power....


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Hey, you should be happy, we can now fear the Islamist terrorists - nothing like a little propaganda to tweak our fear level.


Huh? So you're saying this raid is just a propaganda trick?

If only that were so.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

adagio said:


> Huh? So you're saying this raid is just a propaganda trick?
> 
> If only that were so.


Ya, these are just toys the RCMP put on display:


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Invading another country and killing it's citizens in one reason some may be mad. Going from peacekeepers to warmakers another.
> .


You really think that's a major cause? It is way beyond any simplistic notion of 'we deployed therefore we're a target'. For the real extremists (not intellectual criticts of 'the west'), it doesn't matter. Some real nuts want liberalism to die. Universal sufferage, economic productivity etc...all bad ideas to the looneys. 

Unless we completely turtle and appease, we will be a target. Even if we do completely isolate ourselves, we may still be a target. This is not about how to walk on eggshells. 'Warmakers' rhetoric makes for glib posts, nothing else.

Actually analysing what is happening is much more depressing. Inaction is not an option; how we act is. Head in the sand, guns blazing or something more Canadian (whatever that is), but Canada is not a neutral country nor has it ever been in major conflicts. Of course, cheap shots are easy from here. I expect one or two to stick to that framework because they have nothing else.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Beej said:


> Of course, cheap shots are easy from here. I expect one or two to stick to that framework because they have nothing else.


And to those two, I would ask:

What will it take for you to recognize that Islamic Extremism is a serious threat to all Liberal democracies?


----------



## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

(quote): _What will it take for you to recognize that Islamic Extremism is a serious threat to all Liberal democracies?_
---------
While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I would couch it a different way; What will it take for us to realize that any religious extremism is a serious threat to all liberal democracies?

Religious fanatacism or extremism is by its very nature unthinking. Currently, the "big one" is Islamic, but I have spoken to Christian and Jewish extremists who are just as deluded and frightening. Anytime a tribal appeal is made ("we" are good, "they" are evil) bad things happen to innocent people. History is replete with examples.

Sadly, I don't think these arrests will be the end of it.


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Chris said:


> (quote): _What will it take for you to recognize that Islamic Extremism is a serious threat to all Liberal democracies?_
> ---------
> While I don't disagree with the sentiment, I would couch it a different way; What will it take for us to realize that any religious extremism is a serious threat to all liberal democracies?
> 
> ...



Chris... that was a brilliant reply. :clap: Well Said.

Extremism is just that... you can put any adjective on it you want... religious (pick your flavour) extremist, political extremist, economic extremist, etc...

It's way to easy to point a finger at single group and claim guilt by association... which is clearly evident in the tone of many of the replies here in this thread.


----------



## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

The timing of the raid was certainly fortuitous for Harper, since he already had a massive press event scheduled for today, swearing in new recruits and handing out medals. Not that I really blame him for pushing this to happen at a convenient time. That's politics. I'm looking forward very much to what comes to light during the trials.


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

On this topic...

If in fact these people were planning to use these materials to harm others Kudo's to the RCMP, CSIS and police authorities for stopping it before something happened. It makes me feel good to know smart capable people are hard at work making us safe.

My fear now that this has happened... is that it will become politicized and used to further one agenda over the rights and freedoms we enjoy.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> Chris... that was a brilliant reply. :clap: Well Said.
> 
> Extremism is just that... you can put any adjective on it you want... religious (pick your flavour) extremist, political extremist, economic extremist, etc...


You can use whatever adjective you want, but we are not talking about other types of extremists. The big threat to Liberal Democracies right now is from Islamic Extremism. Does that mean other groups haven't used terrorism in the past or won't in the future? Of course not. 



da_jonesy said:


> It's way to easy to point a finger at single group and claim guilt by association... which is clearly evident in the tone of many of the replies here in this thread.


I gotta call you on that. Please list the 'many' replies where this is evident.


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Vandave said:


> You can use whatever adjective you want, but we are not talking about other types of extremists. The big threat to Liberal Democracies right now is from Islamic Extremism. Does that mean other groups haven't used terrorism in the past or won't in the future? Of course not.


Some could successfully argue that economic and political extremists are responsible for starting the war in Iraq. And if you live in Iraq, and your neighbours house is leveled by a misguided JDAM you probably have a different opinion of who the terrorists are.



Vandave said:


> I gotta call you on that. Please list the 'many' replies where this is evident.


Ummm have a look at *However's*



However said:


> Well, they sure "look" guilty...


And as you yourself correctly pointed out, *Lars's*...



Lars said:


> Yep, and surprise, surprise, look at their names - they're all foreign sounding (if they're Canadian, chances are theie parents or grandparents aren't). They sound like they're all middle-easterners. No surprise there. No racism intended, either, but how many Canadian or U.S.-born Jakes, Toms, or Sarah's plan terrorist attacks? The other side world really does have a problem with us.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> Some could successfully argue that economic and political extremists are responsible for starting the war in Iraq. And if you live in Iraq, and your neighbours house is leveled by a misguided JDAM you probably have a different opinion of who the terrorists are.


I agree, the Bush Admin does have extremists within it. The whole Iraq War was based on lies and it had little to do with the fight against Islamic Extremism. I think it had the most to do with politics and the desire to reshape the Middle East (ala.. New American Century types).

Unfortunately, innocent people die in war. The US military is very careful when implementing force and does all in their power to minimize collateral damage.



da_jonesy said:


> Ummm have a look at *However's*
> 
> And as you yourself correctly pointed out, *Lars's*...


I don't see anything wrong with what However said. He isn't claiming a whole group of people are responsible for anything. He only said they looked guilty. Are you assuming he concluded this based on their names? If so, that's an unfair judgement and a big leap. I think he said they looked guilty based on the evidence released so far.

Lars is correct that a lot of people in the world do not like the west. However, I think home grown terrorists are the bigger threat. A certain percentage of teenagers are always attracted to the wrong crowd. For whatever reason, many kids don't feel a part of society. Some kids get attracted to gangs, drugs or other negative cultures. In the case of Islamic Extremists, young adults who don't feel a part of society can become brainwashed by extremists at the Mosques.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The big threat to liberal democracies is certain elements over reaction. 

There are a number of risks, I dare say crystal meth has and will kill more people.

This is no different than any threat of harm to citizens - it needs to be dealt with at a variety of levels by appropriate response and not gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands.
The key word is "appropriate".

Letting even the plans of terrorism affect your life in any way means they win. No one is "invading" North America - terrorists will try and invade your mind.

I was NOT impressed with the show and tell and quotes from the RCMP which looked very self serving.
I would have been far more pleased with a flat statement of facts as understood and not speculation of the most inflammatory nature.

I'd be very interested to hear from the Canadian Muslim community on this. I'm sure they are very dismayed and are also in the very best position to help authorities deal with it.

Inappropriate responses and reaction by authorities or citizens can isolate and radicalize a growing segment of the Canadian mosaic.
Muslims make up 1/3 of my riding and I welcome them and hope they will help authorities deal with the very few radicals in their midst.

Canada has the potential and really is a model for cultural peace - it's hard to build and too easy to ruin.
Responsibility lies with ALL communities to keep the trust and the peace and not let terrorists achieve their goals of creating fear and conflict.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> There are a number of risks, I dare say crystal meth has and will kill more people.


Crystal meth is a choice, being killed by a terrorist isn't.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Spare me -crystal meth is a huge and present threat to communities and kids and it's very profitable for criminal elements.
I'm talking about allocation of resources and appropriate responses to actual risks not over blown melodrama.

There are a variety of risks to citizens and a segment of public servants paid to identify and reduce those risks.
Let them get on with it without the melodrama.



> Which is more dangerous in Canada: being a cop, or being a wife? The answer is: wife. By a long shot.


http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml?x=23367

at least somebody understands real risks and the need for resource allocation that is "appropriate".

There was always a retaliatory risk if Canadian troops confronted radical Islamists in a miltary manner. Goes with the choices made by the government.
Whether it was direct or indirect the situation in Afghanistan increased that risk.

That the potential violence was tracked and acted on speaks well for the government at a number of levels - they are doing the job expected.

Too much grandstanding and self back patting for my taste. They are fear mongering and that's the worst thing to do as it feeds directly into radicals hands.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Spare me -I'm talking about allocation of resources and appropriate responses to actual risks not over blown melodrama.


For God's sake spare us your overbearing pomposity.

Your condescending attitude apparently makes you right and everyone else on this board wrong?

Want to do something really "appropriate"? Take a break from posting until your lofty ideology comes back to earth. 

Sometimes I think MacNutt was right when he sparred with you. Sorry, but that's the way I feel about it all tonight.

*end rant*


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Sometimes I think MacNutt was right when he sparred with you. Sorry, but that's the way I feel about it all tonight.
> *end rant*


Please leave the memory of MacNutt out of this.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> And to those two, I would ask:
> 
> What will it take for you to recognize that Islamic Extremism is a serious threat to all Liberal democracies?


I'm guessing that this in aimed at me....
:yawn: 

These arrest became Harp-ortunists in nature when Pork-in-a-vest used them for political gains....

Such big words for such a meaningless statement.... beejacon


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> I'm guessing that this in aimed at me....
> :yawn:


Yup.



ArtistSeries said:


> These arrest became Harp-ortunists in nature when Pork-in-a-vest used them for political gains....
> 
> Such big words for such a meaningless statement.... beejacon


I am not following you here.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> IFor example in Holland, a terrorist cell killed a filmmaker and his cell planned to kill some MPs.


Theo van Gogh was killed by a jihadist for his 10 minute movie "Submission". Mohammed Bouyeri was part of the Hofstad Network.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Vandave said:


> Crystal meth is a choice, being killed by a terrorist isn't.


Having just seen a friend's life pretty much destroyed by it, I strongly dispute the word <i>choice</i>. Hmmm... maybe I'll start another thread on that....


M


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> Ummm have a look at *However's*


It's ridiculous to quote my first line without the text that follows.



> Well, they sure "look" guilty...
> 
> But until they're convicted of anything, they remain _alleged_ terrorists. Or have the laws changed in Canada overnight?


Or are you still upset about the ostrich thing?


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> I am not following you here.


Let’s go back a few years and think about if we really needed to worry about a terrorist threat. Did we really need to see the U.S. mobilize so much effort for what is relatively a small chance?
Have we not blown it out of all proportion? Al-Qaeda was a very amateurish group that got lucky and made a big splash. Their attack on 9/11 succeeded spectacularly well but was really nothing very sophisticated. 
What have been the consequences since then? Well two wars for starters (Afghanistan and Iraq) but also an over reaction (innocents in jail, a sense of fear, domestic spying). Would you not say that we have been manipulated by the media and political agendas?

Terrorism is a technique used because these groups are weak – they don’t have the means or manpower for anything else. They achieve maximum impact with a minimal amount of effort. 
I have said that more Americans die every month from guns than did on 9/11 but we don’t see a “war on guns”. Surely this would be less expensive than the present “war on terrorism”. 
The Islamist terrorists are a very small group whose power is needlessly exaggerated. The American reaction to 9/11 has given fuel to this small group and helped recruit more into their fold as well as inspire others. 
The Arab world is a disaster for various reasons and, yes, there is an Islamist project that is undertaken to give hope to many Muslims. Islamists are a political movement in many countries. 
The goal of Islamist is quite ridiculous but in their frame of optics, I would guess reasonable to them. 

Let’s take a look at Afghanistan. The Taliban were able to take control because the country had fallen apart after years of war. Some say they were lucky because Afghans wanted any government after years of war. Furthermore, the Taliban received help from the Pakistani government via the (ISI agency) looking to stabilize that region after the Soviet retreat. 
The “utopia” they tried to create there was a disaster. In the Muslim world, these same Islamist radical carried out certain attacks but certainly made little political gains.

It’s ironic how world powers used these extremist political movements for their own use.
Israel helped Hamas as an opponent to the PLO. 
In Afghanistan the USA backed Islamists with money and weapons. The goal was for Russia to be backed into supporting the government in Kabul. Warlord attacked the Kabul government. The fight against the Russians in Afghanistan because a magnet for young radicals who gained experience there. We can thank the CIA for helping organize Bin Laden and his ilk as they wanted to defeat the Soviets. 
The Islamic revolution that you think threatened the Western world was mostly dead. To help get their revolution under way, what better way to rally the troops than get the more powerful nation drawn into attacking them?
Lessons of Vietnam are not lost on these terrorists – America won almost every battle there yet still lost the war. What better way to win the hearts and mind of people of a certain country to your ideology than to have foreigners use overwhelming force against you?
Bin Laden focused on attacking the West and the US in particular (a few bombing here and there with a focus on the attack in the NewYork). In trying to gain more followers to his Islamist project. It’s been said that Osama hoped for a U.S. invasion of Afghanistan as this would mobilize followers from every Muslim state to his cause. The U.S. over-reacted and the net effect has been positive for the Islamist project. 
There still has not been a massive revolt in Muslim countries against their governments and a replacement of regimes by the zealots – in that sense Bin Laden has failed. What we call al-Qaeda is a high-profile group but with very little power.

Now most of this should have been handled differently except that in the U.S. the neo-cons had their own agenda. The attacks on American soil were an excuse for full _Pax Americana _and PNACs plans.

And that sound you are hearing? It is us getting sucked into a quagmire…


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

HowEver said:



> It's ridiculous to quote my first line without the text that follows.


I suppose you should get points for that, others would have convicted them on site by virtue of their looks.




HowEver said:


> Or are you still upset about the ostrich thing?


LOL... I've been called worse by better


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Canada has the potential and really is a model for cultural peace - it's hard to build and too easy to ruin.
> Responsibility lies with ALL communities to keep the trust and the peace and not let terrorists achieve their goals of creating fear and conflict.


:clap: 

Yes. And it is going to be tough. Your focus on 'appropriate' was also notable.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> And that sound you are hearing? It is us getting sucked into a quagmire…


:clap: 

A good and long post; worth thinking about. 

One quick point: Al-Quaeda may have gotten 'lucky', but when you try enough (first WTC attack, USS Cole, more?), something is going to happen...and keep happening (UK, Spain, Indonesia...were these all Al-Quaeda?) That group clearly needed/needs stopping. The means are tricky, but certainly should not have involved Iraq. That was a separate issue for the UN to handle.

The quagmire line is interesting. I don't disagree with it, but don't think it's a reason not to participate. This is a quagmire that must be handled and Canada can help cool the hotshots.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Please leave the memory of MacNutt out of this.


Gerry was my friend and I will refer to him and his memory whenever and wherever I so please.

By the way, when were you appointed a moderator? I must have missed the announcement. tptptptp


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> One quick point: Al-Quaeda may have gotten 'lucky', but when you try enough (first WTC attack, USS Cole, more?), something is going to happen...and keep happening (UK, Spain, Indonesia...were these all Al-Quaeda?) That group clearly needed/needs stopping.


Osama bin Laden went back home (Saudi Arabia) in 1990. At the time Iraq invaded Kuwait and he offered to help defend his country from Iraq if need be. He was no fan of Iraq (too secular for him) but inviting the Americans (infidels) to Medina and Mecca was too much for him. He too refuge/residence in Sudan and only after the Taliban took power in Afghanistan did he return there. 

Al-Qaeda members did get training in Afghanistan but by the nature of terrorist cells, very little contact (if any) after. It's not so much an organization as "method". Think of it as little independent franchises. 

There were bomb attacks on U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya but for the most part the al-Qaeda we think about did very little. 
The reaction to 9/11 from the Americans and the rest of the world succeeded for Osama beyond his wildest dreams. The only Islamist regime in the world was overthrown but there has not been the "awakening" the he hoped for. 
Slowly and mostly because of blunders in the aftermath of 9/11 there has been an increase. Iraq was a mistake.


> When it is over, if it is over, this war will have terrible consequences. Instead of having one bin Laden, we will have a hundred.


Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak 2003
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0331-01.htm
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/31/iraq.egypt.mubarak.reut/


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Gerry was my friend and I will refer to him and his memory whenever and wherever I so please.


If you want to use MacNutt to make a point, then don't be surprised if he get denigrated then.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Al-Qaeda members did get training in Afghanistan but by the nature of terrorist cells, very little contact (if any) after. It's not so much an organization as "met


Agreed and, after Afghanistan, the implication was for more covert work and much international cooperation (Interpol-heavy?). 

More security was needed (we got a lot of appearances...safety blades anyone?) but, of course, some loud groups just complained about everything that remotely went against their own non-existent concept of 'freedom'. Result: some sensible opposition to the measures being taken were marginalised. Oh well, it could be worse. At least, going by the news, something seems to be working.


----------



## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

kps said:


> I guess you missed the Taliban Commander's threats to kill Canadians "one by one".


No, I didn't miss that one. Just the way I feel. His justification is not based on any logic the average Canadian would understand, myself included. Yes we did "invade" his country. Only after his country and government was given every oportunity to disband and force and or hand over the the terrorists.


----------



## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Vandave said:


> I don't think so. This is an issue that has affected most European countries. For example in Holland, a terrorist cell killed a filmmaker and his cell planned to kill some MPs. France has had some issues as well. Neither of these two countries are directly associated with the US.
> 
> Spain, England, Russia and Bali have all had terrorist attacks carried out by Muslim Extremists.
> 
> ...


You are right of coarse. However, the terrorist logic doesn't compute for Canadians. For me to bring the US into my statement was wrong in this context.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Ya, these are just toys the RCMP put on display:


You do realize that the bag of fertilizer was for "display" only and not seized during the raid - I guess they needed visual aids.... nothing like a like marketing..


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> Terrorists are alive and well in Vancouver.
> 
> They sell drugs and stolen property and Vancouvers corrupt police force protects them.
> 
> ...


You should move to Iran. I hear it is great there. 

Or, you and Macspec could move in together. I have a feeling the two of you would get along quite well.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

HowEver said:


> Right.
> 
> They didn't feel like dragging the three confiscated tonnes to the press conference. Shame on them.


Why even have a visual aid? 

Granted, ordering 3 tonnes of the stuff is stupid and sure to raise red flags.


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Gee, I wonder if that firearm was registered...

/derail.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Why even have a visual aid?
> 
> Granted, ordering 3 tonnes of the stuff is stupid and sure to raise red flags.


No, they got caught with 3 tonnes. It wasn't 'on order'.

The visual aid is to show people what they found. 

I am not sure that kind of activity raises red flags in our country. Look at all the meth labs and grow-ops we have. All sorts of chemicals, supplies and extraordinary amounts of electricity are purchased for that and yet... no red flags.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> I am not sure that kind of activity raises red flags in our country. Look at all the meth labs and grow-ops we have. All sorts of chemicals, supplies and extraordinary amounts of electricity are purchased for that and yet... no red flags.


Wrong and wrong and wrong again...
Ordering large amounts of fertilizer, chemicals and your pattern of electricity use are red flags.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I feel safer when criminals are morons. Growing up on Bond movies and 80s euro-villians (e.g. Die Hard), one could get very worried given that the heroes seemed a lot less intelligent, just clever. And then someone orders 3 tonnes of fertilizer or tries to light their shoe...


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Wrong and wrong and wrong again...
> Ordering large amounts of fertilizer, chemicals and your pattern of electricity use are red flags.


A good example of a law-enforcement tool that 'violates' privacy: utilities reporting unusual electricity use. Also a good idea. Perhaps the Vegas casinos should have been lead advisors on security -- security is their game and livelihood, not just a buzzword. If nothing else, it would make for cool TV.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Wrong and wrong and wrong again...
> Ordering large amounts of fertilizer, chemicals and your pattern of electricity use are red flags.


Prove it.beejacon


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Beej said:


> A good example of a law-enforcement tool that 'violates' privacy: utilities reporting unusual electricity use. Also a good idea. Perhaps the Vegas casinos should have been lead advisors on security -- security is their game and livelihood, not just a buzzword. If nothing else, it would make for cool TV.


Utilities can't report unusual electrical use due to privacy laws. I could spend $1000 a month in my condo and it won't raise any flags. I can go and buy 500 high watt bulbs and as much tinfoil as Spec buys in a week and that won't raise any flags either. The biggest source of intelligence for grow-ops are concerned neighbours. They know what is going on and report it to the police/city. 

Security and intelligence are two very different creatures. Security is generally 'after the fact', or 'while in progress'. Intelligence involves information collection and assessment, of which the casinos do little.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Vandave said:


> Security and intelligence are two very different creatures. Security is generally 'after the fact', or 'while in progress'. Intelligence involves information collection and assessment, of which the casinos do little.


Security often has a preventative role (bouncers  ), but I see the point. I consider security and intelligence as a combined activity. Securigence or Intellity. So the casino would need help from the intelligence community to make their security advice more effective and thus provide the government with Intellity.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Vandave said:


> I can go and buy...as much tinfoil as Spec buys in a week and that won't raise any flags either.


VanDave: Like the bishop in that Monty Python skech about sherry, I've heard Spec orders direct from AlCan.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Macfury said:


> VanDave: Like the bishop in that Monty Python skech about sherry, I've heard Spec orders direct from AlCan.


Of course, how could I forget.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Will someone call me cruel and low if I laugh at that?


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

:lmao:


----------



## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Hope this isn't racist backlash, but it sounds like it.

Extremists of all stripes are the biggest problem. They breed their own opponents with their actions. I hope that the arrested are able to get transparent and speedy trials to either convict or exonerate them as is appropriate. That is the only hope for anything good to come of this in the long run.


----------



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Extremists of all stripes are the biggest problem. They breed their own opponents with their actions." Amen, brother Matt. Amen.


----------



## Jacklar (Jul 23, 2005)

The funny thing about this is people are never told the real reason people do this? Apparently its because we believe in democracy and all that other blah blah crap. If that is true why isn't Sweden being attacked? Terrorism is the work of cowards but it doesn't mean we shouldn't ask why these people feel they need to attack us and it's not always reasons the government tell us.

My girlfriends parents immigrated to Canada over ten years ago and are Canadian Citizens. I was talking to her one day and she said "I think Canada is a place for people to go who are sick of war, violence, fighting and hate." I never thought of it that way but I'd like to think its true. Too bad people try to bring their fight to Canada. 

Thank god, noone was hurt and this was stopped before anything was able to happen. But remember fear should never be used to make decisions. You are more likly to kill yourself then to die in a terrorist attack.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Jacklar said:


> ...it doesn't mean we shouldn't ask why these people feel they need to attack us...


And if you found out why they wanted to, you would...?


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

HowEver said:


> I'm not being critical of what you said, but yes, people are unhappy everywhere--although of course, for the most part, most people are not that way.


I'm not being critical about what you posted, but there is more to the story than just posting that Oussama Kassir is a Swedish terrorist. A quick Google will give you the "rest of the story"....


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Seems I'm not the only one dismayed by "theatre and melodrama"



> "A good spectacle ... theatrical atmosphere ... like 24 ... an awards show."
> Reviews for a Mirvish production, right? Maybe a Hollywood blockbuster or fast-paced new action series on Fox?
> Wrong. It's how several lawyers and security experts describe the sombre, indeed frightening, events which transpired in the GTA over the past weekend.
> At a news conference Saturday, a dozen of the highest-ranking police officers in the province gathered to announce that an alleged terrorist cell had been shut down before it could explode a truck bomb three times more powerful than the device used in Oklahoma City. They were circumspect about Operation O-Sage, arguing time constraints in the preparation of evidence as well as police procedure.
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...3&call_pageid=1149329604487&col=1149329604479


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Interesting to say the least. Home grown terrorism? Scary indeed. What is so wrong with our country that it warrants this? Some people need their heads examined.


Now that the big scary headlines have faded, it's time to look at the facts of this "plot".
Maybe nxmx can give us the definition of entrapment in the context of a sting operation. We should take the announcement in context of a government keen on manipulating the message to push a controversial agenda.

As for their motivation, this seems quite reasonable


> According to sources close to the investigation, the suspects are teenagers and men in their 20s who had a relatively typical Canadian upbringing, but — allegedly spurred on by images of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan and angered by what they saw as the mistreatment of Muslims at home — became increasingly violent.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...044&call_pageid=976163513378&col=969048863474
Heck, I'm appalled at the treatment and cold blooded murder of Muslims by invading forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

The fertilizer was indeed one delivery


> *RCMP behind bomb material*
> Massive sweep | Investigators controlled the sale and transport of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate in an undercover probe of an alleged homegrown terrorist cell


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...834&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Harper's pronouncements after the arrests seem a little odd and tainted after knowing more of the story....


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Now that the big scary headlines have faded, it's time to look at the facts of this "plot".
> Maybe nxmx can give us the definition of entrapment in the context of a sting operation. We should take the announcement in context of a government keen on manipulating the message to push a controversial agenda.


The facts are that they purchased 3 tonnes of ammonia nitrate. Do you think they were considering a career in farming?

Nice accusation against the Conservatives. Prove it. You do realize the RCMP and the federal government operate separately, right?

Why can't you just admit these terrorists were a real threat?


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

You are the perfect NeoCon VD. 
The message was geared towards you and it's given you some kind of "high".
No amount of reasonable talk will convince you that otherwise. If this is not reminiscent of the fearmongering to the south then you will never "get it".

Yes VD they purchased fertilizer and yes they may have had intent to harm Canadians.

But in your desperation for a boogeyman you are ready to forgo any critical thinking. Reminds me of those idiotic fools in 1984....
If you read Harper's little speech, I'd hope that you would also laugh at the Bush-like key phrases.

The facts of this case is slowly coming out - yet I'm sure that you would have these men up against a firing squad if you could. 

There is nothing wrong with bringing up questions about this operation - after all don't you want to know the truth?

These "criminals" had to be extremely stupid buying 3 tonnes of fertilizer and something does not smell right about this story. The accounts vary from they had been planning this for years and only now started to buy the bomb making material? 

The press conference with the visual aids looked suspicious - and adding the fake bag of fertilizer only added to the farcical element. Wonder if any other props were fake?

The dialogue from Ottawa is slowly changing and the fear factor has been pumped up. 
When it comes to an element of trust, sadly there is one lacking in this government. Yes the people involved may have done a good job but in the context of empty rhetoric.

I'm still waiting for the facts to emerge from these arrests. You have gone into "they want to kill us all" panic mode....


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I find some comments from people like MacDoc and AS hilarious. I guess short of strapping them to the bags of ammonium nitrate themselves they won't believe it. Oh wait, this is Harper's secret agenda! 

As to the "sting". The fertilizer companies have been in cahoots with the police for a number of years. It would take only one call from a distributor to set the ball rolling. A legitimate order was called and delivery arranged. The shipment was intercepted at source by the police. That's not entrapment. An order went through by persons yet to be named.

AS, I don't see anyone panicking here. I do see some common sense dialogue. Interestingly, none of my Muslim friends were one bit surprised at the news. They've been expecting it. It remains to be seen who of the 17 are proven guilty but the fact remains if not this bunch then others to follow.

BTW, I live only a mile from speculated targets. I'm grateful the police have done their work.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

adagio said:


> I find some comments from people like MacDoc and AS hilarious. I guess short of strapping them to the bags of ammonium nitrate themselves they won't believe it. Oh wait, this is Harper's secret agenda!
> 
> AS, I don't see anyone panicking here. I do see some common sense dialogue.


I doubt they would believe it if something happened. They would probably claim it was a conspiracy.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

adagio, please point out where I said that there was no intent?

There is nothing wrong with a little caution before branding them all terrorists...
Given the series of "war of terror" arrests this weekend and Condi praising us, the timing can be seen as suspicious. 

We don't have all the facts - I've heard the target was parliament, you are telling me near your house. Just another reason to wait and find out what the facts are.

Given that we seem to be looking for boogeymen to appease/justify a war on terror and forgetting the global picture. 


> *The raid that raised more questions than answers*
> Lawyers for two men arrested in an anti-terror raid in east London spoke out angrily as mystery deepened about the circumstances surrounding the operation which left one suspect with a gunshot wound
> 
> Recent police raids in Britain
> ...


http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article625091.ece


So my cynicism should be viewed as a little caution lest we end up with another Maher Arar of our own doing.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> I doubt they would believe it if something happened. They would probably claim it was a conspiracy.


You know VD, with the way you are distorting my statements to suit your little mindset, I'm sure you'd do great working for the ministry of truth.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Why can't you just admit these terrorists were a real threat?


and just how far down the rabbit hole is a "pre-emptive war?"


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Adagio you appear to be unable to read. I find your incomprehension "hilarious".

Several in newspapers commented on the over the top circus the police put on as well and it's the hyberbole I'm commenting on - not the reality of the conspiracy. Security forces have a job to do - they did it - I don't need nor does society need the back slapping and hooraa - guns and leg irons nonsense from the police.

And Muslims here are not "surprised" either - they are the best Canadians to aid in sorting out issues with violence arising within their community.
You get this hoopla and then you get the crazies on the other side all worked up and you get mosques trashed. Brilliant 



> Police chief urges calm


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...geid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1149420427711

He stirs up the conflict with his own foolish show and then urge calm.......spare me 

•••

There are many "threats" to society and resources need to be utilized accordingly, not according to a knee jerk reaction to a security "show and tell circus".
There are many more dire and immediate threats than terrorism and they don't get the high profile nonsense accompanying this. Why can't YOU understand that?


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

and who is to say the gentleman quoted here is not correct??



> One Muslim leader suggested the arrests may have been timed to coincide with upcoming Supreme Court of Canada hearings into the constitutionality of security certificates, which allow the authorities to indefinitely detain, without charge, anyone considered a threat to national security.
> 
> “The timing is a little troubling,” said Zafar Bangash of the Institute of Contemporary Islamic Thought.
> 
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...geid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1149420427711


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

It appears to me that the police raid itself was more frightening for certain people posting here than the intent of the people who were arrested. Very interesting.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Several in newspapers commented on the over the top circus the police put on as well and it's the hyberbole I'm commenting on - not the reality of the conspiracy. Security forces have a job to do - they did it - I don't need nor does society need the back slapping and hooraa - guns and leg irons nonsense from the police.
> 
> And Muslims here are not "surprised" either - they are the best Canadians to aid in sorting out issues with violence arising within their community.
> You get this hoopla and then you get the crazies on the other side all worked up and you get mosques trashed. Brilliant


MacDoc, I can agree, the RCMP probably went a little too far is releasing details of the raid. Valid criticism yes, but.... I think it's missing the larger point, which is that we are definately a target and that terrorist elements exist in our country. The RCMP deserve to be applauded for their hard work. 

I don't understand the criticism of the Conservatives on this issue by some here. The Conservatives are not directly involved in the actions of the RCMP. I don't think we should politicize this issue. 

And yes... the Muslim community has a serious role to play here in addressing violence within their community.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

One might crticize the PR play of the raid, however, even police forces have to play this game now in order to "prove" that they're doing something. Because we've become such a media hungry society, EVERYBODY has to play to the glass eyeball to justify themselves.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> I can agree, the RCMP probably went a little too far is releasing details of the raid. Valid criticism yes, but.... I think it's missing the larger point, which is that we are definately a target and that terrorist elements exist in our country. The RCMP deserve to be applauded for their hard work.


The details of the "raid" is what is fishy here.
These had to be the stupidest terrorists ever (it does not negate that they can be potentially dangerous). Ordering 3 tonnes of fertilizer? Wonder if they received a discount or incitement? The RCMP delivering the fertilizer? They should come around my place, the grass ain't doing to well.
So how did this deal go down? A bunch of angry Muslims see what we are doing overseas, they start to "organize". The RCMP gets wind of this. Maybe plant some informer, suggest that they buy fertilizer. They do and they get arrested. But would they have acted without this help? This could be conjecture, we'll only know after we get more details.... 


And the why arrest them with what looks like very little evidence? If they were under such surveillance, they could of waited until they had a little more "evidence". 

From the FLQ to Air India, we have always had a "terrorist" element VD. 
From what you have posted, it seems to reveal more about your insecurities. 




Vandave said:


> I don't understand the criticism of the Conservatives on this issue by some here. The Conservatives are not directly involved in the actions of the RCMP. I don't think we should politicize this issue.


The issue was politicized when Harpo seized it and started sounding like Bush Junior. The talk of terrorists in Canada seems to be in high gear since the Cons took office. Coincidence or timing? 



Vandave said:


> And yes... the Muslim community has a serious role to play here in addressing violence within their community.


What violence are you talking about? 
Easy to point a finger maybe you should show a little vigilance and talk about the example set with our abandoning the Geneva convention in Afghanistan, or show some disgust at Haditha.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

No they don't "need to" and it leads to the kind of crazies reactions that resulted.
Credit to you that you see the "circus aspect".

I suggest to anyone who thinks how police behave is not also a societal threat to watch *Two Days in October* and you'll see the kind of damage that resonates 40 years later.

The real threat is in changing liberal democracies to "accommodate" the self righteous law and order element while disregarding hard won freedoms and multicultural peace.

This is an embarrassment for the Muslim communities and I'm quite sure they don't appreciate the circus show either.

I would have been much more impressed with the security forces if this had been covered as the criminal matter that it is than the sensationalizing that went on.

••

AS - this is the best detail I've seen.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...ageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Macfury said:


> It appears to me that the police raid itself was more frightening for certain people posting here than the intent of the people who were arrested. Very interesting.


Actually, not fear - ridicule. Everything from the phoney bag of fertilizer to the one gun for 17 suspects... Even the two in prison at the time of the arrests.... 
If I lived in fear, I'd be talking like VD...


Wonder why those who vandalized a Mosque were called "ignorant idiots" instead of terrorists. It's all for show....


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> And the why arrest them with what looks like very little evidence? If they were under such surveillance, they could of waited until they had a little more "evidence".
> 
> From the FLQ to Air India, we have always had a "terrorist" element VD.
> From what you have posted, it seems to reveal more about your insecurities.


They have 3 tonnes+ of evidence. You don't know what other evidence they had. I am sure they didn't release it all.

I'm glad you admit there is a terrorist element in this country. Insecurities?? Please elaborate.



ArtistSeries said:


> The issue was politicized when Harpo seized it and started sounding like Bush Junior. The talk of terrorists in Canada seems to be in high gear since the Cons took office. Coincidence or timing?
> 
> 
> What violence are you talking about?
> Easy to point a finger maybe you should show a little vigilance and talk about the example set with our abandoning the Geneva convention in Afghanistan, or show some disgust at Haditha.


You just don't like the fact that the Conservatives have been right on this issue from Day 1. 

You're right... I shouldn't have used the word violence because we haven't had any (luckily). A better way to word it would have been to say, "Extremist Idiology". 

I am disgusted by Haditha. Why would you suggest I wasn't? We haven't abandoned Geneva.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> This is an embarrassment for the Muslim communities...


Can you elaborate MacDoc?


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Maybe nxmx can give us the definition of entrapment in the context of a sting operation. We should take the announcement in context of a government keen on manipulating the message to push a controversial agenda.


Entrapment - http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e024.htm

I think that was the best explanation I found, there are many short definition which don't explain what is and is not entrapment. Basicly it comes down to intent. Did the police persuade the alleged criminals to do the criminal act.

I certainly believe Canada could be the plot of a terrorist threat. I certainly believe we have terrorists in this country. We let too many people into this country without a background check I think. The Khadr family is a perfect example of that, they go back to their country and fight with the Taliban, and then come back here to hide. I'll wait to see the evidence in this case.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> TYou just don't like the fact that the Conservatives have been right on this issue from Day 1.


Right about what? And what would be different from any other political party? I have no clue what you are talking about.

PS Thanks Kosh


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

MF - Elaborate??....if you don't understand why then I certainly can't elaborate.

••

VD - Cons right about what specific to this case??

and I see you think it's luck having no violence. 

There are dozens of communities with potential for violence and there have been violent acts - Air India notably, Tamil Tigers, Sikhs, the list is long where there are violent elements amongst the vast majority of peaceful immigrants.
There are violent elements in the First Nations as well.
Hey Orange parades were sanctioned not that long ago.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> MF - Elaborate??....if you don't understand why then I certainly can't elaborate.


You may choose not to, but of course you can.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

No MF if you don't comprehend the statement as it sits then nothing I say will provide that comprehension. Lacunae self evident.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

It's OK MacDoc. I can see you're rattled.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Macfury said:


> It's OK MacDoc. I can see you're rattled.


Don't you have a mosque to go vandalize?


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Don't you have a mosque to go vandalize?


Maybe it's time for the moderators to help out with the debate.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Ohh I see that the Beej is rattled beejacon


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Beej said:


> Maybe it's time for the moderators to help out with the debate.


What can the moderators add to it? AS naturally exposes himself as being ignorant.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Ohh I see that the Beej is rattled beejacon


Disgusted would be a more accurate word. Still not quite accrurate. 

These could be funnier in a more private setting (a few lads throwin back some beers), but this is quite clearly out of place on ehmac.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

VD, care do answer any previous questions? 
Seems that you prefer to live in you little la-la land full of boogeymen and terrorists. It is a good excuse to run up to Big Daddy Harper and have him protect you....

Beej, if you are truly offended click on the red exclamation mark to your left.
Mods will destroy the post, I'll get a slap and be told to play nice with some of the kids around here....

If you find MF constant derailing of every post here with asinine comments acceptable than I'd be surprised. You for one called for better debate here and less bullying. Oddly, you seem to align yourself quite easily with that style of what passes for debate. Maybe a more pedantic style would suit you?


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Vandave said:


> You just don't like the fact that the Conservatives have been right on this issue from Day 1.


Actually... that is kind of goofy to point the finger like that. Admittedly many of us have issues/concerns about Harper and the Conservatives. To make the statement that "The Conservatives were right" implies that the Liberals, BQ and NDP were somehow wrong. 

Clearly the authorities have been following this group for an extended period of time (at least since August of 2005 when two of them were picked up trying to smuggle guns across the border). So why couldn't you say, Thank god that the Liberals enacted Bill C-157 and formed the CSIS in the first place in 1984 and that CSIS and the RCMP were monitoring these folks under the last Liberal government?


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

ArtistSeries said:


> If you find MF constant derailing of every post here with asinine comments acceptable than I'd be surprised. You for one called for better debate here and less bullying. Oddly, you seem to align yourself quite easily with that style of what passes for debate. Maybe a more pedantic style would suit you?



Wow... Beej, It looks like you just got owned. :lmao:


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Right about what? And what would be different from any other political party? I have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> PS Thanks Kosh


The Conservatives have been right about identifying terrorism as a threat to Canada. In the past you have downplayed this threat. For example...

Originally Posted by ArtistSeries...And you need to get a brain....Has Bin Laden ever really been a threat to Canada? Or has the media, politicians and hawks greatly blow this out of proportion? Has our reactions had the opposite effect? Have we not really created a self-serving boogeyman (or boogeymen)?.

And from Macspectrum...more surveillance, guns and "diligence" won't solve the terrorism problem the problem will be ongoing until military hardware manufacturers and other war profiteers are removed from power - but i doubt in my lifetime again, and i keep repeating myself, military types have always said that if someone is willing to kill themselves in order to conduct violence, it is almost impoassible to stop them and again, for an example of how more "diligence" ain't working, just check out Israel


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> VD, care do answer any previous questions?


I never dodge a question. Any others I haven't answered?


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Vandave said:


> The Conservatives have been right about identifying terrorism as a threat to Canada. In the past you have downplayed this threat. For example...
> 
> Originally Posted by ArtistSeries...And you need to get a brain....Has Bin Laden ever really been a threat to Canada? Or has the media, politicians and hawks greatly blow this out of proportion? Has our reactions had the opposite effect? Have we not really created a self-serving boogeyman (or boogeymen)?.
> 
> And from Macspectrum...more surveillance, guns and "diligence" won't solve the terrorism problem the problem will be ongoing until military hardware manufacturers and other war profiteers are removed from power - but i doubt in my lifetime again, and i keep repeating myself, military types have always said that if someone is willing to kill themselves in order to conduct violence, it is almost impoassible to stop them and again, for an example of how more "diligence" ain't working, just check out Israel


The Conservatives aren't doing anything than the Liberals did... And ArtistSeries and MacSpectrum are both right in the quotes you have provided.

MacSpectrum assessment is pretty accurate, I think he missed two points... One, that those planning to do violence might be feeble minded (not sharpest tools in the shed)... ordering three tones of ammonium nitrate is a bit suspicious unless you own a pretty big farm. Two, that security keeping us safe might in fact be pretty clever at entrapping those who might want to do us harm. 

Bin laden is not targeting Canada... he has bigger fish to fry. That's not to say that there is some extremist activity taking place here. I'm sorry but I have confidence that the authorities guarding our safety are doing their jobs... Friday is only a case in point... 

Now on the other hand if you doubt their efforts and feel that they cannot keep us safe, feel free to panic... just don't bring us down with you, because when you panic you've let them win.

Me I'm not looking at this as a Canadian political issue... If these were bad guys, then CSIS, RCMP and the police did what they are paid to do. Job well done. My life, my outlook, my beliefs will not change.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> If you find MF constant derailing of every post here with asinine comments acceptable than I'd be surprised. You for one called for better debate here and less bullying. Oddly, you seem to align yourself quite easily with that style of what passes for debate. Maybe a more pedantic style would suit you?


It's pretty clear we don't see eye-to-eye on this. You're quite adept at "asinine comments" and "derailing" too.

As for 'aligning' and 'derailing', you seem to label as derailing what you disagree with, feel that I'm aligning when I point out a very absurd (let's use that word) post by you and, in general, just spin it to suit (you also label as spin things you disagree with). As for assinine comments, I'll take your opinion on those with a grain of salt.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Beej, if you are truly offended click on the red exclamation mark to your left.
> Mods will destroy the post, I'll get a slap and be told to play nice with some of the kids around here....


Careful Beej, he appears to have some Mod granted right to insult whoever he pleases with impunity.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm not sure I understand this business about "derailment" either. When I ask a question, it is to a purpose. Sometimes the questions are short because they deal with one important point in which I'm interested.

I'm reminded that some here frequently tell people to block their posts. They are also certainly free to block the posts of those members whose posts derail their trains of thought.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Careful Beej, he appears to have some Mod granted right to insult whoever he pleases with impunity.


SINC, glad to see you are advancing another statement without any proof or facts to back up that claim. Something that is not surprising from you. Disinformation is nothing new with you, to the point where some of your postings read like some bad fiction. 

Like all, I am subject to the same rules. As this is a private venture, I have no qualms with being banned by the mayor. I have on occasion been at odds with our host but the exchanges done with respect.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> Wow... Beej, It looks like you just got owned. :lmao:


No political bias in that evaluation. :clap: I seem to recall you being woefully wrong recently when tossing out a similar statement. This time, of course, you are right, er left.  

Careful or you'll be derailing the thread with assine comments that align with the wrong sort.


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Beej said:


> No political bias in that evaluation. :clap: I seem to recall you being woefully wrong recently when tossing out a similar statement. This time, of course, you are right, er left.


my memory isn't what it once used to be in my advanced years...  when was I recently the subject of being owned?


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Like all, I am subject to the same rules. As this is a private venture, I have no qualms with being banned by the mayor.


I agree. So why make an issue of someone pointing out an 'absurd' post of yours? They are subject to the same rules. Or is it that you don't agree on something and want to respond. But that's derailing, or was the original absurd post the derail, or is this the derail? Seems easier if derail (and spin) = what one doesn't like. No need to use proof, facts, context or to consider relative magnitude then. Just whip out the term, maybe throw in 'neocon' here and there, and move on. beejacon


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> my memory isn't what it once used to be in my advanced years...  when was I recently the subject of being owned?


You can't be owned, aren't you a communal-hippie-type? beejacon 

My memory sucks too. Sad, really. I can't even remember the day I was born, although I can remember what day my parents said my birthday was.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> As for 'aligning' and 'derailing', you seem to label as derailing what you disagree with, feel that I'm aligning when I point out a very absurd (let's use that word) post by you and, in general, just spin it to suit (you also label as spin things you disagree with). As for assinine comments, I'll take your opinion on those with a grain of salt.


Poor Beej - can't admit when he wrong or totally off the mark....

I have disagreed with a few, yet never felt that I had to do mental gymnastics to try and figure out their convoluted bizarre logic. Maybe because they based their arguments on some kind of thought process and not "feeling" or just knee jerk reactions. 
MacDoc and I don't agree on nuclear power, UFOs or alternative medicines but I still respect him. I don't agree with Macsprectrum on most subjects but still try and see his point of view. I don't agree with nxmx on certain subjects but will defer to him and find his posts intelligent and witty. 
When it comes to a few, a simple statement such as "the sky is blue today" turns into a perverted inquisition where the conclusion is that the Liberals did it.


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Beej said:


> You can't be owned, aren't you a communal-hippie-type?


_communal-hippie-type?_ :yikes: Nope not me... I like my stuff too much.

I am more of a "for the good of the commons" or "good of the dominion" type guy. Now where is my Canadian Flag, I feel the need to wrap myself in it.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> No need to use proof, facts, context or to consider relative magnitude then.


What's the point when it mostly gets ignored? 
This seems the style of MF, yourself, and a few others (include Spec). 
You could write the most erudite essay here and it would get derailed by a few for the simple reason of who wrote it.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

da_jonesy said:


> Wow... Beej, It looks like you just got owned. :lmao:


Now try and get him to admit it


----------



## DS (Oct 7, 2004)

Vandave said:


> as much tinfoil as Spec buys in a week and that won't raise any flags either.


:lmao:


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

ahem - back on subject ...

I'm no fan of Rosie Dimanno but she's right on track with this



> From isolation can come rage
> Jun. 5, 2006. 08:21 AM
> ROSIE DIMANNO
> 
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...7&call_pageid=1149329604487&col=1149329604479

Promoting dissent between communities works perfectly in the fundamentalists hands.....and that includes both sides.
There are far too many "white bread Canada" closeted or not about.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> The Conservatives have been right about identifying terrorism as a threat to Canada. In the past you have downplayed this threat. For example...
> 
> Originally Posted by ArtistSeries...And you need to get a brain....Has Bin Laden ever really been a threat to Canada? Or has the media, politicians and hawks greatly blow this out of proportion? Has our reactions had the opposite effect? Have we not really created a self-serving boogeyman (or boogeymen)?.


VD, I don't see where the Cons have been right compared to the previous masters.
If you call putting the threat in it's proper perspective and not exaggerating it downplaying it, then yes, I have "downplayed" it. 

My above reaction and comments still stand as well as these:
http://www.ehmac.ca/showpost.php?p=409212&postcount=35


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Poor Beej - can't admit when he wrong or totally off the mark....
> ....
> I have disagreed with a few, yet never felt that I had to do mental gymnastics to try and figure out their convoluted bizarre logic. Maybe because they based their arguments on some kind of thought process and not "feeling" or just knee jerk reactions.
> MacDoc and I don't agree on nuclear power, UFOs or alternative medicines but I still respect him. I don't agree with Macsprectrum on most subjects but still try and see his point of view. I don't agree with nxmx on certain subjects but will defer to him and find his posts intelligent and witty.
> When it comes to a few, a simple statement such as "the sky is blue today" turns into a perverted inquisition where the conclusion is that the Liberals did it.


I have no problem admitting that. Of course you... Gee, that's an easy argument.
....
I guess we'll just have to disagree on this whole discussion. Although we align (  ) on many points, we seem to disagree on to whom they apply most. 

No big deal. Cheers.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> You could write the most erudite essay here and it would get derailed by a few for the simple reason of who wrote it.


Wow, once again we have a similar view, but apply it differently. Neat.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Perspective and appropriate responses are absolute keys.

The entire concept of terror implies unreasoning fear.
The ideal from a terrorist view point is to spend almost nothing in materiel and self imolation by believers and inflict terror on a massive scale provoking costly and inappropriate responses and also provoking conflict for further marginalization of those who may be potential recruits.

There are always threats, there are always dangers to any policy foreign or internal. Keeping perspective on those is critical as is keeping checks on internal forces that would restrict freedoms and privacy by blowing risks out proportion to serve their own goals.

A few quotes to keep in mind



> Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
> ~Benjamin Franklin





> War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious.
> ~General Smedley Butler





> Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificually induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear.
> ~General Douglas MacArthur





> We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.
> ~Dwight D. Eisenhower


from those most in a position to comment and understand the *internal dangers*.....not just the external ones.

and at the heart of too much of the conflicts....



> The greatest crime since World War II has been US foreign policy.
> ~William Ramsey Clark
> About the quote: William Ramsey Clark was US Attorney General under Lyndon B. Johnson
> 
> ...


...a path I do not want to see Canada follow.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> ahem - back on subject ...
> 
> I'm no fan of Rosie Dimanno but she's right on track with this


Ya, good questions. How much tolerance do you give to intolerance? 

And at what point do you start to challenge religious fundamentalists? It seems everybody feels free to criticize Christians, but it ends there. If fundamentalist values are diametrically opposed to Canadian values such as equality and freedom, then I think we should denouce said fundamentalists. The tough part is drawing the line... very subjective...


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well some overdue self examination :clap: but not without the usual we attached .

It's easy VD - break the laws and suffer the consequences - criminality and extremism that result in violent acts get treated as they should be and not overplayed as in this case.
For the rest of it - dialogue and acceptance and downright celebration of differences............ *within the law and Charter*. Not an us/them mentality.

Now comes the reminders that should not have been needed if the circus wasn't put up in the first place.
From the Globe Editorial



> From Monday's Globe and Mail
> *Terror in Canada: Perspective, please*
> Here? In Canada? Right in our midst?
> 
> ...


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.weterror05/BNStory/Front


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Forgive me if this was posted already, but... did anyone see the front page of the Star today? One of the alleged wannabe terrorists stars in his very own QuickTime movie, no less. The Star reproduced the QuickTime window with telltale upper left red-yellow-green circle buttons and all.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Well some overdue self examination :clap: but not without the usual we attached .


I use the word 'we' to mean Canadian society (that means all people). That verbage is inclusive, which is the opposite of what you are suggesting. Please don't insult me by assuming the worst.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

I was wondering when Harper would start using fear mongering on this one... and allusion to the nazis... 


> Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, obviously this government is against any act of vandalism against any religious group in this country.
> 
> I should add that police officers have informed me that they have the support of all cultural and linguistic communities in their investigation of this occurrence.
> 
> ...


http://www.parl.gc.ca/39/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/033_2006-06-05/HAN033-E.htm#Int-1568167


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

AS: In the statement you provided, Mr. Harper has done a good job of pointing out that we can't lash out at the faiths and cultures invoked by violent people to justify their acts. 

Trying to "spin" this into Nazi fearmongering seems to be the purpose of YOUR statement, not Mr. Harper's.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

"they hate us because of our freedoms" has been used by Bush, Blair and now Harper.
It's nonsense, of course, but plays very well as a soundbyte.

Eric Margolis had this to write


> But before we rush to judgment, it’s worth remembering the score of Pakistanis arrested in 2003 allegedly for plotting to blow up the nuclear reactors at Pickering. After a huge media uproar and lurid claims the charges were dropped and the accused deported on minor visa irregularities.
> 
> The Bush Administration has been putting enormous pressure on Canada to `get tough’ with a wide assortment of Muslim groups and individuals protesting US policy in the Muslim World.
> 
> ...


http://www.bigeye.com/foreignc.htm


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Hey, why buy a newspaper when Margolis' column is delivered here?


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Voices: Worried by terror
> Jun. 5, 2006. 01:24 PM
> 
> We asked whether we should be worried about home grown terror cells? Here’s what you have to say:
> ...


real people feedback........
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...l_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

I must admit I'm finding the "storm the hill and behead Harper a tad over the top as a "serious threat".

The NYT is reveling in the lurid details of course 



> *Details of Canadian Plot Emerge From Hearing*
> 
> By CHRISTOPHER MASON
> Published: June 6, 2006
> ...


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/06/w...&en=b6b2bc0882697569&ei=5094&partner=homepage


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

> an 8-page synopsis presented in court by prosecutors described plans to blow up the Canadian Parliament's buildings in Ottawa, storm the studios of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, demand the release of Muslim prisoners, and behead hostages if the government did not comply.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/06/w...&en=b6b2bc0882697569&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Add beheading Harper and it's not so far removed from any Tory/Liberal chat room....

These "terrorists" seem politicized by our involvement in Afghanistan and our treatment of Muslims in countries we invaded. Hardly the "we hate the West for their values" sentiment echoed here...


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> These "terrorists" seem politicized by our involvement in Afghanistan and our treatment of Muslims in countries we invaded. Hardly the "we hate the West for their values" sentiment echoed here...


Of course they are going to jump on the Afghanistan issue. What do you expect from an Extremist Islamic idiology?

I would have thought the threat against the CBC would have gotten you turned around on this issue.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> These "terrorists" seem politicized by our involvement in Afghanistan and our treatment of Muslims in countries we invaded. Hardly the "we hate the West for their values" sentiment echoed here...


Part of the communications 'war'; terrorists will grab any lever they can. I recall one of the real looneys talking about the rightful return of Spain. It's what they're doing and the real reasons (as we were getting into a while back) not whatever they think will 'sell' best.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Of course they are going to jump on the Afghanistan issue. What do you expect from an Extremist Islamic idiology?
> 
> I would have thought the threat against the CBC would have gotten you turned around on this issue.


I'll try and simplify this for you - 
Yes there is an Islamic movement - it has not been very strong and their goal was to involve the West into a war with them. Laden got his wishes and the US fell for his "trap".
Because of the extreme overreaction by the US, this has contributed to mobilizing and strengthening what was a weak movement. 
This "home-grown" terrorism is a direct reaction to our behaviour and policies.

This is not to minimize the dangers but it should be put in proper perspective.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> I'll try and simplify this for you -
> Yes there is an Islamic movement - it has not been very strong and their goal was to involve the West into a war with them. Laden got his wishes and the US fell for his "trap".
> Because of the extreme overreaction by the US, this has contributed to mobilizing and strengthening what was a weak movement.
> This "home-grown" terrorism is a direct reaction to our behaviour and policies.
> ...


And I will try and simplify it for you.

The home grown reaction you refer to is not by "a direct reaction to our behaviour and policies", rather they are traitors to our country. They were born here as Canadians and they chose to support some Islamic doctrine as dictated by some fanatic in the middle east.

They are the very lowest kind of scum and should be treated accordingly for their actions. They should be jailed for life, or better yet face a firing squad. There is not and should not be a place in Canada for people whose sole purpose in life is to end the lives of peaceful Canadians.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

:yawn: SINC is funny


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> :yawn: SINC is funny


I am astounded that you can sit by and yawn at traitors in our midst. Must be an artistic reaction.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Big words... oh my god traitors and people that want to harm us.... 
It's a neocon wet dream.... now we can be scared... :yawn:


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Big words... oh my god traitors and people that want to harm us....
> It's a neocon wet dream.... now we can be scared... :yawn:


No, it's not. In case you missed it, it is reality. And if you are not scared by things like traitors and bombs and fellow Canadians driven by some religious fanatic in the middle east instructing them to kill their fellow citizens, then you sir are an AS.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

For someone in the News business, you are rather uninformed.
So did you tingly in your jeans when Harper announced the news?


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

SINC said:


> No, it's not. In case you missed it, it is reality. And if you are not scared by things like traitors and bombs and fellow Canadians driven by some religious fanatic in the middle east instructing them to kill their fellow citizens, then you sir are an AS.


Exactly. Open your eyes ASs. 3000 people died on 911. It can happen again, or even worse things could occur.

Nobody is saying we should live in fear, just accept reality and prepare for it as best we can.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Yup, the CIA could be covering for Nazis....
That would be worst....


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> For someone in the News business, you are rather uninformed.
> So did you tingly in your jeans when Harper announced the news?


Like I said, you're an AS.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Yup, the CIA could be covering for Nazis....
> That would be worst....





Vandave said:


> Exactly. Open your eyes ASs. 3000 people died on 911. It can happen again, or even worse things could occur.
> 
> Nobody is saying we should live in fear, just accept reality and prepare for it as best we can.


Even others believe you're an AS.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

You can say "ass" here if you want.

It's odd how the con cornflakes seem to rally under illusion of big bad scary "terrorist"... some have called these "terrorist" nothing more than weekend warriors with loud mouths. I'd say the truth is somewhere in the middle.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> You can say "ass" here if you want.


Not in my understanding you can't, but the fact of the matter is that I didn't say it. I simply referred to you by your initials.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Wow SINC, you really are childish. At least take responsibility...


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Fine, live in your little fantasy world. Tell me I'm wrong when the first bomb goes off killing hundreds of Canadians. Could be Toronto, but could be Montreal just as easy. Any major city is vulnerable.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Nobody is saying we should live in fear,


Yet it's "okay" for many thousands of residents in my riding, 1/3 in fact to live in fear and have police parked at their schools and gathering places??
That's "acceptable"?? 

Why? because of an overhyped dog and pony show put on by authorities they already are nervous about.
You think the study showing systemic racism in police forces is limited to blacks???

If the people involved committed criminal acts then deal with in the normal course of dealing with any criminal activity instead of turning it into this stupid harmful circus.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Yet it's "okay" for many thousands of residents in my riding, 1/3 in fact to live in fear and have police parked at their schools and gathering places??
> That's "acceptable"??
> 
> Why? because of an overhyped dog and pony show put on by authorities they already are nervous about.
> ...



Trying to smother yet another thread with intellect are we?

One day when the smoke clears in the GTA after something goes very wrong, you may have a much different view of the authorities and their handling of this case. You may even be grateful they stopped this one.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It has gone wrong - thousands of my neighbors are living in fear and exactly because of the neaderthal attitudes like yours.
Look to your own murderous city for comparison   

Don't start preaching to me about NeoCon policies when you live in a bloody war zone in the richest province in Canada.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The way MacDoc is talking, you'd think Burlington just declared war on Alberta!!!


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Now here's a key person.



> The friendly zealot
> All the Muslim kids hanging out in the parking lot of Meadowvale Secondary School know about Qayyum Jamal. 'He's the nicest man I ever met,' one said. Yet even before the 43-year-old was accused of plotting to blow up parts of Southern Ontario, some parents were beginning to worry about his growing influence over their teenagers.
> 
> GREG MCARTHUR , OMAR EL AKKAD and JOE FRIESEN
> ...


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060606.TERRORYOUTH06/TPStory/

Now let's compare if he was instead bring a bunch of teens into building a meth lab as has happened in a few BC towns.
If that same size of group had been caught with the paraphenalia for the lab - there would be nowhere NEAR the kind of coverage.



> Crystal Meth in B.C.
> Canada's crystal meth problem is the worst in British Columbia. The number of deaths there related to methamphetamine has risen from three in 2000 to thirty-three in 2004. Most of those deaths have been drug overdoses or car accidents in which the driver was high on meth.
> 
> READ ABOUT TWO B.C. TOWNS WITH A CRYSTAL METH PROBLEM
> ...


In both cases it's criminal conspiracy that has the potential to harm many people and teens being manipulated for the ends of another ideas, poltical or monetary - it's criminal activity - not some harbringer of doom.

The parents involved in the area of the activity would "keep a closer eye" in the same way.
But they would NOT be in fear of backlash fomr other communities.
Treat radical violence like the crime level that it IS - not some lever for political gain....at the expense of a minority 



> Qayyum Jamal was conspiring something like this, then my hat's off to those parents for looking ahead and thinking about it. Everyone should be careful."


Be it drugs or violent ideologies it's the community involved that is most able to deal with it - and to do so means making EVERY community a welcome part of the Canadian mosiac and that they feel supported and safe working with the authorities.
Too often that is NOT the case.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> It has gone wrong - thousands of my neighbors are living in fear and exactly because of the neaderthal attitudes like yours.
> Look to your own murderous city for comparison
> 
> Don't start preaching to me about NeoCon policies when you live in a bloody war zone in the richest province in Canada.


Well given the opportunity by your post, there has been one murder in our city boundaries in the past 20 years. Not bad eh?

And you might want to consider being grateful that fear has been instilled in your area. It tends to keep residents on edge and alert for suspicious activity. That in itself is a good thing. Think of it as bringing neighbourhoods together in a common cause.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

In the aftermath of the attacks on the World Trade Center, the psychological mood in the US and certain other countries was such that draconian measures could be imposed on the population. The "war on terror" was such as absurdity that key players were almost blatant in their lies in selling their propaganda. The NeoCons in the US were rather brazen about invading Iraq under any pretext. It was never a question of "if" but "when". 
If the US had stayed in Afghanistan were it had reason to be, things would be very different now. 
The scenario should of been the US wins in Afghanistan, UN troops mop up the Taliban and reconstruction starts (with bags of money from Western countries). 
What happened is that the US restricted it's hunt for Bin Laden and his followers and decided to go after Iraq.
In the book "Against All Enemies: Inside America's War on Terror ", Richard Clarke writes 


> "Do you know how much it will strengthen al Qaeda and groups like that if we occupy Iraq? Beers rage. "There is no threat to us now from Iraq, but 70 percent of the American people think Iraq attacked the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. You wanna know why? Because that's what the administration wants them to think!


In Canada, seems that many want to believe the marketing hype about made in Canada terrorists...


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You are part of Edmonton - don't play the local yokel crap and no it's not a reason whatsoever to be "suspicious" - that's your schtick. 

The problem is neither the neighbourhood, the community nor even the conspiracy - the major problem is how ridiculously it's being over hyped, over played and in very very harmful ways.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Be it drugs or violent ideologies it's the community involved that is most able to deal with it - and to do so means making EVERY community a welcome part of the Canadian mosiac and that they feel supported and safe working with the authorities.
> Too often that is NOT the case.


Drugs = choice

Terrorism = no choice

Think about it.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Drugs = choice
> 
> Terrorism = no choice
> 
> Think about it.


What are you talking about?


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> What are you talking about?


MacDoc's attempt at moral equivalence.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> And you might want to consider being grateful that fear has been instilled in your area. It tends to keep residents on edge and alert for suspicious activity. That in itself is a good thing. Think of it as bringing neighbourhoods together in a common cause.


This is rather 1984ish... thanks for the perfect example of Oligarchical Collectivism.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> MacDoc's attempt at moral equivalence.


Thanks VD -


----------



## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

Time to take a step back and look at the bigger picture:

Suspects seem strictly second-rate



> It appears that a good many knew the police were on to these suspects. Harper knew. So did Toronto Mayor David Miller. So did some of the suspects' neighbours. So did many near the ill-fated Ramara Township "training camp," who told the Star later that police asked them to keep their mouths shut.





> The arrests also come at a time when Parliament is conducting a mandatory five-year review of Canada's new anti-terror laws. Before the arrests, there was a possibility that parliamentarians might recommend that the Harper government ease up on some of those laws. That now seems unlikely.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> You are part of Edmonton - don't play the local yokel crap and no it's not a reason whatsoever to be "suspicious" - that's your schtick.


Wrong again.

St. Albert is and remains a city unto its own. Other than we happen to share a boundary line with Edmonton, we are NOT part of Edmonton.

For example Edmonton has its own police force and transit system. Likewise St. Albert has its own police force and transit system. 

We also share a boundary with the County Of Sturgeon. By your logic, we are part of Sturgeon County too? Not bloody likely.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

miguelsanchez said:


> Time to take a step back and look at the bigger picture:
> 
> Suspects seem strictly second-rate


Thanks miguelsanchez, but I think that this will all be lost by the voices that are afraid of our "terrorists"....beejacon


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Thanks miguelsanchez, but I think that this will all be lost by the voices that are afraid of our "terrorists"....beejacon


This writer makes a good point. We should run IQ tests on our inmates and release everyone that scores below average since stupid people are too inept to manage to kill or harm anyone.  
I wonder if Timothy McVeigh was an alumni of Mensa?

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Being stupid does not make you less dangerous - just look at some politicians...


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Being stupid does not make you less dangerous - just look at some politicians...


Well AS the author of that article doesn't seem to share your concern for stupid people.

And yes we've had our share of stupid politicians. No argument there.

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Small difference MacGuiver. 
As terrorists these guys barely qualify.
The article does bring up some good points.


> If these guys are terrorists, they aren't very good ones.
> 
> Their so-called training camp turns out to have been a swath of bush near Washago, where their activities — shooting off firearms and playing paintball — were so obvious and so irritating that local residents immediately called police.
> 
> This is not quite the image that the government and police are portraying of the 17. They paint the suspects as part of an efficiently sinister conspiracy devoted, in Harper's words, to destroying "freedom, democracy and the rule of law."


I'm sure that these facts will be lost to the scary headlines....


----------



## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

So then, terrorists are only terrorists when their plans succeed. It's a little too late then. Kinda like the crazy ex-boyfriend/ex-husband; Sorry, we can't do much until he kills you.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Thanks VD -


there's 2 words I'd never thought I would see together.
next thing someone will be thanking STD


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

mikeinmontreal said:


> So then, terrorists are only terrorists when their plans succeed. It's a little too late then. Kinda like the crazy ex-boyfriend/ex-husband; Sorry, we can't do much until he kills you.


so better pre-emptive wars like Iraq?
how many have died in that war?
slippery slope indeed


----------



## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

I never mentioned anything about war.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

mikeinmontreal said:


> I never mentioned anything about war.


how's that Afghanistan "peace mission" going so far?

pretty soon Harpo et al will be quoting '6/3' (or some other cute phrase) as the reason for anything they do like Bushco quotes 9/11


----------



## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

Funny, I didn't mention anything about that either. What color is the sky in your world?


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> how's that Afghanistan "peace mission" going so far?


Yeah lets go home and let the Taliban take control again. Afghanis were much better off under their control. 


Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> how's that Afghanistan "peace mission" going so far?


Heroin production is at an all time high. With all those foreign planes coming in and out exports and GDP are up also!


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

mikeinmontreal said:


> Funny, I didn't mention anything about that either. What color is the sky in your world?


His sky is silver from all the tinfoil.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> His sky is silver from all the tinfoil.


Coming from your tenuous grasp of reality, I can't help but laugh out loud.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Hey VD this should make you feel safe - it's a new addition to the web site

http://www.csis.gc.ca/en/index.asp

To report information regarding activities which could pose a threat to national security, please call:
1-800-420-5805



Apparently, complaining about present the Con regime is not funny to these guys...

Let the fear begin - watch your neighbour....


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Man, this has got to be the wierdest thread I've read on ehMac. 

Some people here obviously have no problem with someone blowing up the CN Tower, the Parliament buildings and the TSE along with any buildings in the area! Do you realize how many lives would have been lost if these people hadn't been stopped? We shouldn't be worried about that? And you wonder why the RCMP did their dog and pony show! It might have something to do with getting through your thick skulls and registering what could have happened!!! 

Oh let's bee nice to the cutesy-wootsey terrorist. They won't look so cute when you find out what they were attempting to do. Oh, Mr. XYZ was a nice guy who played soccer with the children. What do you expect him to do? Kidnap and kill the children with a machetti? Terrorists are going to meld into the background and stay unnoticed until they strike. The terrorists of 9/11 weren't noticed or reported for anything until 9/11 happened. 

You don't have to fear each day of work - like we did when 9/11 happened. But don't stick you're head in the ground and ignore it either.

Okay, flame away!!


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Kosh, I do have a problem with someone wanting to blow up little bits of Canada. The demonizing of these amateurs is what I find unsettling. Many looked at what happened south of the border in the aftermath of 9/11 and saw mass manipulation of the American psyche. Odd how we so readily accept it when we thinks it affects us directly. 
Think of these "terrorists" and the accusations hurled against them - it's rather farcical that these braniacs would even know where Ottawa is...

Hardly ignoring the threat of terrorism in Canada but these guys were not it.
They were hardly in the background - they posted on the internet, they ran around in army fatigue playing little war games and placed an order for 3 tonnes of fertilizer from undercover agents. 

Let's see what the polls will say about or involvement in the war in Afghanistan in a few months...


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

They also had at least couple of like-minded friends in Britain it seems.


----------



## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

But honestly, AS, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to acquire a weapon and shoot into a crowd at a public gathering. Ahmad Ressam and his buddies were just a "bunch of guys" according to CSIS who got together and bitched about this and that and played cards. But when he got back from Afghanistan, his trail got cold and whoops, there he was at the BC-Washington border with lots of niceties to play with. And the best part is that one of his buddies did time in jail in France for some terrorism activity and is now living happily ever after in NDG.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Hmmm... one of them was in the reserves http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe..._canada_update_060607/20060607?hub=TopStories

When I was in the reserves, though, I had more than a couple days training in firearms as discussed in this article. I had severals days training in firearms and that was just during the summer full-time months. And it was training on more than the rifle, it included machine guns and grenades (dummy grenades).



> they ran around in army fatigue playing little war games


What do you think army training is? It's the same thing. Remember the game "America's Army"? What do you think that was, but a recruitment and training tool. Fighter pilots train on "games" too.

The cell doesn't have to be large to do a lot of damage. And even a dumb terrorist can get it right sometimes. Although I admit they had to be dumb to buy 3 tonnes of fertilizer from the same place. Any smart person could have bought a few bags here and a few bags there. 

And of course Harper is going to use this politically, but why not, they're just terrorists, they shouldn't have Canada citzenship. It should be stripped from them. It's bad enough we treat our criminal prisoners like resort vacationers. Good ol' Chuck Guite is probably enjoying the sun and a book at some low-security prison.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Kosh, I do have a problem with someone wanting to blow up little bits of Canada. The demonizing of these amateurs is what I find unsettling. Many looked at what happened south of the border in the aftermath of 9/11 and saw mass manipulation of the American psyche. Odd how we so readily accept it when we thinks it affects us directly.
> Think of these "terrorists" and the accusations hurled against them - it's rather farcical that these braniacs would even know where Ottawa is...
> 
> Hardly ignoring the threat of terrorism in Canada but these guys were not it.
> ...


The guys who flew the planes on 911 were also described as idiots as well, yet they were able to kill thousands of people.

It doesn't take a lot of thought to fill a pickup bed with fertilizer, mix it with diesel and find something to ignite it. It's very simple to do.

Your point is ridiculous.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060605/terror_suspects_060605/20060605/

Some of these don't sound so dumb to me. We have a computer programmer (hacker?), a health sciences graduate of McMaster University (bio-weapons knowledge?), a business student at the University of Toronto's' Mississauga campus (finance person?), and a few others for muscle.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Kosh said:


> Some of these don't sound so dumb to me. We have a computer programmer (*hacker?*), a health sciences graduate of McMaster University (*bio-weapons knowledge?*), a business student at the University of Toronto's' Mississauga campus *(finance person?*), and a *few others for muscle*.


Who is the one jumping to conclusions and using conjecture?
BTW, I certainly fit over half the descriptions there - maybe you should have VD call that 800 number on me?


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Who is the one jumping to conclusions and using conjecture?


You.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

VD wants to believe so badly.... lol

You know, I'm hearing the exact same rhetoric Bush used a few years ago. 
It's too bad VD eats this up. 
So VD what's happened from the time Harper got into office that all of a sudden Canada feels like USA lite?

The more we find out about this case, the more is sounds like terrorism by entrapment - enjoy the scare VD, it's aimed at you....


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Some people here obviously have no problem with someone blowing up the CN Tower, the Parliament buildings and the TSE along with any buildings in the area! Do you realize how many lives would have been lost if these people hadn't been stopped? We shouldn't be worried about that? And you wonder why the RCMP did their dog and pony show! It might have something to do with getting through your thick skulls and registering what could have happened!!!


Connections a little rusty here???
How do you possibly arrive at the conclusion of "no problem with blowing things up"?? Don't be foolish as well as illiterate.

This potential threat needs to be dealt with as the criminal matter it is in the normal course of daily life in Canada - it's what the authorities concerned are paid to do - deal with potential threats. It's their job.

Spare the theatrics - it only hurts the case against the people accused and the way it was handled does immense harm to the hundreds of thousands of Canadians who are Islamic and the many thousands of whom live in my neighborhood.

That's real harm - tangible - not potential. We have an entire community fearing backlash because of the bozo handling of this.

The conspirators appear to be criminals who threatened violence for their own ends and we have laws to deal with them. Charge them, try them sentence them - leave the theatrics to Ed Mirvish 

There have been real bombs and real violence in the past for political reasons and for criminal reasons in Canada and there will be in the future.
That's what security forces are paid to suss out and hopefully defuse as they did here and in the past sometimes did not.

It is no reason whatsoever to pull the kind of fearmongering nonsense that coming a few days before the Supreme Court decision on security certificates just reeks of self serving political theatre.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> VD wants to believe so badly.... lol
> 
> You know, I'm hearing the exact same rhetoric Bush used a few years ago.
> It's too bad VD eats this up.
> ...


Believe what so badly? Reality?


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Sorry, double post.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Connections a little rusty here???
> How do you possibly arrive at the conclusion of "no problem with blowing things up"?? Don't be foolish as well as illiterate.
> 
> This potential threat needs to be dealt with as the criminal matter it is in the normal course of daily life in Canada - it's what the authorities concerned are paid to do - deal with potential threats. It's their job.
> ...


Such a storm of intellectual BS.

The threat was real and dealt with.

The ramifications may or may not affect other Islamics. My best friend is an Islamic and he said to me, we just have to suck it up. Did you feel fear or retaliation when a white dude shot 14 women?

Of course not and your argument is fraught with holes. Fear, schmear.

Any real Canadian will suck it up and get over it.

And on top of that, they will be much more aware of the potential for future episodes just like this one.

If Islamics in your neighbourhood live in fear, perhaps you should consider moving?


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/07/documents07062006.html
.......
There are new revelations about the alleged bombing plot by a group of Toronto-area men that led to a massive police sweep last week, in court documents made exclusively available to CBC News. 

According to the documents, the group is alleged to have been well-advanced on its plan to attack a number of Canadian institutions, possibly including the Houses of Parliament, the RCMP and the CBC.
......


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Cripes, Beej. Someone should call the CBC and tell them their story is all wrong. Just ask a few folks here. They'll tell you the raid came when it did to fit Harper's agenda.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Such a storm of intellectual BS.
> The threat was real and dealt with.


The only BS I see and smell if from scared and panicked little right-wingers who dropped a load in their pants. 


> How real was an alleged plot by a group of Toronto-area terror suspects to take over the Parliament building in Ottawa and behead Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper?
> 
> Sorting out the macho talk from the hard evidence of the suspects’ intent is likely to be a focus of the Canadian investigation and related court proceedings for months, if not years, to come.


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13190292/site/newsweek/page/2/
Of course SINC, VD and others are ready to line them up in front of a firing squad.





SINC said:


> The ramifications may or may not affect other Islamics. My best friend is an Islamic and he said to me, we just have to suck it up. *Did you feel fear or retaliation when a white dude shot 14 women?*


No, we received the gun registry as a response to it - something the con cornflakes decide to scrap 'cause the they believe every Canadian should be able to have a gun (except for the scary "terrorists" of course).
The internment camps during WWII helped also - too bad we can't bring those back. No element of Canadian society should have to "suck it up".... They are not second class citizen and the backlash is based on ignorance acerbated by spin and fear mongering. 



SINC said:


> Of course not and your argument is fraught with holes. Fear, schmear.





SINC said:


> Any real Canadian will suck it up and get over it.


You have a sucking fetish - maybe Big Daddy Harper will show you the way by restricting your rights (just like his hero GW Bush).



SINC said:


> And on top of that, they will be much more aware of the potential for future episodes just like this one.






SINC said:


> If Islamics in your neighbourhood live in fear, perhaps you should consider moving?


:yawn: :baby: 

What's an "Islamics"? I know of Islamist and Muslims - never heard of this mystical creature called "Islamics" -sounds like another figment of your overactive imagination.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Forget it. No one can reason with a know-it-all.

Apparently both you and Macdoc wish to dominate the board with nasty remarks promoting intellectual superiority over any member you choose to tread on, although in fairness, Macdoc's comments are far less abrasive than those of AS.

Carry on. Smother the competition to have your opinions rule every single thread. I'm tired of even trying to offer alternative views that are not subject to ridicule by the pair of you. It has ruined the ehMac experience for many.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> The only BS I see and smell if from scared and panicked little right-wingers who dropped a load in their pants.


Inuendo is fun, but can you back up your statements? 



ArtistSeries said:


> Of course SINC, VD and others are ready to line them up in front of a firing squad.


I don't believe in capital punishment. They deserve due process like every other Canadian citizen.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Inuendo is fun, but can you back up your statements?


I prefer not to, but I sure can smell it on the metro....  



Vandave said:


> I don't believe in capital punishment. _They deserve due process like every other Canadian citizen._


And that is a rare time when we do agree.

ps - I'll try and remember your position on capital punishment


----------



## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

Actually. the white dude's father was a Muslim. And he may have been one as well. Not that it makes a difference in the end.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Seems the only one that has mentioned intellectual or superiority is you Sinc and that's the retreat to ignorance - that good ol' "gut instinct" ala Bush roast seen here recently.

AS and I are hardly alone in our distaste for the dog and pony show - any number of letters and editorials have mentioned exactly the same issue.

Even the usually cautious prosecutor interviewed on CBC this morning mentioned the potential harming of the prosecution's case by these kind shenanigans tho he mentioned media circus which is only 1/2 of the truth.


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Now here is an interesting scenario... and completely hypothetical.

Was the timing of last weeks arrests (and the British arrests last month) at all associated with the killing of Al Zaquari yesterday? It would make sense, with the thinking that killing Al Zaquari might have been a trigger for these groups?

Just a hypothetical.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Not likely - this broke well before Zaquarhi.
Now that's a well deserved end tho his martrydom may continue to inspire others


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060608.wmuslim0608/BNStory/National/home

.....
Muslim leaders called Thursday for a summit by the end of the month among all three levels of government and community leaders to address youth extremism.

"Muslim leaders from across Canada are coming forward today in order to extend a hand to all Canadians so we can face together the problems of radicalism," said Karl Nickner, executive director for the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN).
.....


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

:clap:


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Beej said:


> .....
> Muslim leaders called Thursday for a summit by the end of the month among all three levels of government and community leaders to address youth extremism.
> 
> "Muslim leaders from across Canada are coming forward today in order to extend a hand to all Canadians so we can face together the problems of radicalism," said Karl Nickner, executive director for the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-CAN).
> .....


Dialogue is good.

I am impressed by some of the commentary that has come from the Muslim community.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Hey VD this should make you feel safe - it's a new addition to the web site
> 
> http://www.csis.gc.ca/en/index.asp
> 
> ...



can't wait for these to be made into fridge magnets
how very very Soviet

don't like your neighbour or your ex-spouse?

call 1-800....

offer void where prohibited by human decency


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Who is the one jumping to conclusions and using conjecture?
> BTW, I certainly fit over half the descriptions there - maybe you should have VD call that 800 number on me?


wanna bet someone already did?


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Any real Canadian will suck it up and get over it.


i see we are now being divided into real and non-real Canadians
those with accents, not speaking English, eating anything but steak n' kidney pie need not apply


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Vandave said:


> Inuendo is fun, but can you back up your statements?
> I don't believe in capital punishment. They deserve due process like every other Canadian citizen.


but according to SINC's definition they wouldn't qualify as "real Canadians"
do non-real Canadians deserve due process too?


----------



## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Here's a nice letter in the Washington Post about Canadian anti-terrorism efforts. You'll feel proud.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/07/AR2006060702066.html


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yep fair letter - too bad they didn't do it without the all the song and dance show to go along with it ....then I would have really been impressed.
But nice to have the kudos.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> but according to SINC's definition they wouldn't qualify as "real Canadians"
> do non-real Canadians deserve due process too?


Are you asking me this question? I already said all Canadians deserve equal treatment and due process.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MissGulch said:


> Here's a nice letter in the Washington Post about Canadian anti-terrorism efforts. You'll feel proud.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/07/AR2006060702066.html


First we deliver better health care at a lower price and now this....
Thanks for the link MissGulch


----------



## ComputerIdiot (Jan 8, 2004)

MissGulch said:


> Here's a nice letter in the Washington Post about Canadian anti-terrorism efforts. You'll feel proud.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/07/AR2006060702066.html



Thanks for the link, Miss Gulch. 

Just read my way through all 22 screens-ful. Wow, the things you miss when you're absent from this board for a while... :yikes:


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MissGulch said:


> Here's a nice letter in the Washington Post about Canadian anti-terrorism efforts. You'll feel proud.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/07/AR2006060702066.html


one down, 299,999,999 to go
Mr. Shulz better have his tax return in order


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> one down, 299,999,999 to go
> Mr. Shulz better have his tax return in order


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

damn VD, you have to stop posting your family pictures here...


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

*This is one reason to be afraid....*

Was wondering when the rhetoric and false conjecture would start. Good old Stockwell Day....


> Canada’s military presence in Afghanistan isn’t to blame for terrorists targeting this country, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day said Thursday, extremist Internet sites are.


http://www.canada.com/topics/news/n...=bd748028-8455-4cd7-8cfe-e1085df2b2a1&k=95529
So how long until more restrictions on that?




> Day said Canadian soldiers are doing good work in many areas, including *stemming the flow of heroin out of Afghanistan.*


If that's any measure of success, the Taliban were doing great, they had pretty much eradicated the problem.

Can't believe that Day is charge of security - that's the reason to be afraid. Once again, Mr. Walk with dinosaurs knows more than anyone else...


> His opinion also runs counter to an assessment by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service — obtained recently by CanWest under the Access to Information Act — which said activities in the war-torn country have increased Canada’s profile among terrorists.
> "Canada remains at the forefront in the fight to disrupt extremist activity, both domestically and internationally," it said.
> "Canada’s counter-terrorism efforts, however, including its well-publicized intelligence and law enforcement efforts and the deployment of military forces to Afghanistan, make it a high-profile target."


Of course, Day and many don't believe in causality, they prefer the boogeymen.

Here's another big scary headline


> *Auto thefts help finance terrorism, Day says*


and here is the actuality 


> To date, the RCMP know of no terrorist financing or money laundering involving vehicle theft in Canada, Sgt. Martin Blais, a Mountie spokesman, said later.


You have to love these "terror" insinuations...

Anyone else see something wrong the with reports that two 500lbs bombs were dropped on Zarqawi yet this morning some newspapers are running pictures of a rather unscathed man? Maybe he was superhuman after all. 

Michael Berg does but some of the pronouncements into perspective (his son was beheaded by Zarqawi)


> Under Saddam Hussein, about 30,000 deaths a year. Under George Bush, about 60,000 deaths a year. I don't get it. Why is it better to have George Bush the king of Iraq rather than Saddam Hussein?


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Under Saddam Hussein, about 30,000 deaths a year. Under George Bush, about 60,000 deaths a year. I don't get it. Why is it better to have George Bush the king of Iraq rather than Saddam Hussein?


because Halliburton stock is way up


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

*Wait, here's the reason for the fear mongering...*



> The Conservative government will revive plans to require telecommunications companies to build in increased access for Internet and telephone wiretaps.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060609.TERROREAVES09/TPStory/National
bye-bye privacy.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

_OTTAWA -- The Conservative government will revive plans to require telecommunications companies to build in increased access for Internet and telephone wiretaps, with a bill that probably will be tabled in the fall.

*A Liberal bill* requiring the new built-in surveillance capacity, as well as forcing service providers to keep more client records that could be obtained by police, died when former prime minister Paul Martin's minority government fell last November._

Ah, so it looks like this bill was a forgone conclusion no matter who won the election. 

Surveillance is inevitable. I believe a lot of monitoring is already going on, legal or not legal.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Yup adagio, the Liberal bill did not pass, did not even get close. So it's a moot point. It would have been _con_tested heavily.
When will we stop blaming the liberals for everything...


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> When will we stop blaming the liberals for everything...


1 more year to go. Next spring we win a majority and the Liberals won't be mentioned again for another 4 years.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> damn VD, you have to stop posting your family pictures here...


If Beej can get an icon beejacon, then I think we also need a tin foil hat icon.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

And another one for when you should get a 2xclue.....
Unless you are in agreement with bizzaro Day and do blame the internet for the terrorisst - 'cause you know even the security experts are saying he's out to lunch...

Better check under your bed VD - boogeymen there.....


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I wasn't trying to blame the Liberals.... just merely pointing out that some hatred of the Cons should be equally applied to the Liberals. They are hardly the darlings that some people make them out to be. The 2 parties are surprisingly the same and at this point, other than perhaps the same sex marriage issue, the party positions are similar.... almost laughable. In fact, I chuckle every time I see a post against a Conservative initiative. It would seem to me (not you necessarily) that if the Liberals were in power we'd hardly be hearing a peep about various issues because if a Lib implemented it then it's okay but if a Con tries to do something exactly the same then it's suddenly bad. It's a joke and a source of many a giggle for myself.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

adagio, I was against the beginning of this bill when it first surfaced. Still think it's a stupid idea.
The comments about Day and trying to blame terrorism on the internet is a stupid comment that skirts reality.
I'm trying to remember who wrote something akin to "the lies always precede the truth". This has been a media circus. The manipulation of information was a preface to the erosion of civil liberties in the USA. 
People remember the headlines, not the story.
The cons are subject to more criticism because they are in power - but you'll notice that the Libs are not immune to that (Iggy, Volpe, the vote on Afghanistan)


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

That's why I wasn't referring to you in my comments. I know you better. 

My dig was at those whose mommy and daddy voted Liberal and therefore I will too, no matter what, attitude. The same equally applies to the Cons or NDP. Some are so pig headed and blind.

Hey, look what happened when I pointed out about the Libs signing Canadian troops for their new role in Afghanistan? Where was the thread *last year* condemning the proposal? Heck, some didn't believe me when I posted about it recently and it wasn't until they heard it from the Liberal leader's mouth themselves that it finally sunk in. Too much bias for any single party is foolish and very unwise because the Cons are in now, but not forever.

I think some people spend too much time digging up dirt on one particular party when you should be searching for crap on ALL of them. There isn't a single politician or party that doesn't have dirt hidden under the mat or under the bed. I hope those who spend their day digging it up on the Cons do so with equal zeal when the next party is in power. IMO, they ALL have a hidden agenda.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Update - Either new information is coming out (after the fact) or more spin...


> Zarqawi survived air strike: U.S. military
> 
> Terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi initially survived a powerful U.S. air strike and was found alive when Iraqi police arrived at the scene, U.S. military officials revealed Friday.


http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=b28a853b-1e57-42b8-a001-aee3815c54a2
Doubleplusgood

If anything, he was tenacious.


----------



## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

adagio said:


> It sounds like the info I had from a lovely Pakistani woman was bang on. She told me right after the 9/11 episode there were those right here in the GTA who held similar beliefs. She said young Canadian born men were being brainwashed to hate by some individuals.


This sounds just like the sort of thing your friend was describing:


> ...Indian doctor and cleric Zakir Naik, who suggested how Sharia law could help Western countries.
> 
> Naik talks about capital punishment for those who commit rape and also for a person who is "involved in homosexuality."


source: http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/09/conferences-muslim.html

While freedom of speech and religion are important, isn't there a law against promoting hatred against an identifiable group that would apply here?

We also *have* a system of laws which apply to everyone here. Working within the system to change laws is one thing, put suggesting the use of an alternative legal system (i.e., Sharia law) seems a bit much...


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well you have two legal systems in Canada anyway and there are those that would promote the same penalties for similar acts - unreason and radicalism is hardly limited to Islamists.

It's within people's lifetimes that vigilante hangings etc went on in North America. Inhuman acts are not restricted to any one group.


----------



## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Inhuman acts are not restricted to any one group.


Inhuman acts are not restricted to any one group, but they are *restricted* -- and the hate laws should be used to shut these jokers down if they are indeed promoting hatred as the CBC article would suggest.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yes and the best to identify the problem spots are those within the community where hate and violence is being fomented.

Those communities need to feel comfortable with authorities that they are acting in the communities best interest and sometimes the authorities are perceived and sometimes rightly so as a part of the problem.

Hate and violence find fallow ground when communities feel opportunity and egality are not passing them by.
But there will always be fanatics as history has shown and the need to deal with their violent tendencies. It's not going to be wished way.

The greater danger in my mind is blowback against specific communitues and impact on hard won freedoms for the vast vast majority.
Busting down doors at midnight on flimsy excuse is itself a form of terror too easily permitted when "national security" is invoked.
Due process is critical.
I have no issue with due process in this case as far as can be seen so far- I have an issue with dog and pony show of the announcement.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Bang on, PenguinBoy. Thanks for the link.

My friend was not necessarily referring to these conferences but rather the "secret" meetings.

Canada should have one law for all. I think part of our problems in the past were our general ignorance of Islam. Canadians want to be sensitive to those of different cultures. I think what may have happened is in many cases it's the aggressive extremists who got their voices heard by politicians. In fear of treading on toes I believe many a blind eye was turned to hateful language used by some. 

This has radically changed now but only because the quiet moderates are finally speaking up. I've always maintained the cure has to come from within the Muslim community itself. It's not politically correct for me, a white anglo "Christian", to tell these extremists they are out of line. That's a job best left to my Muslim friends.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> It's not politically correct for me, a white anglo "Christian", to tell these extremists they are out of line. That's a job best left to my Muslim friends.


Exactly :clap:

Also it's very important the police and authorities be seeen to be even handed in dealing with incidents as they are hardly free from blemish in this regard.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You seem to think Canadian laws are free from that - not hardly and tho it's getting better the family law system as it exists has many warts and inequities.

I think you refer to a deeper conflict between a secular supposedly rational democracy and a "handed down laws" authoritarian social contract.
There is an inherent conflict between a religiously driven/derived structure that is by nature resistant to change and evolving secular check and balance systems.

That the inherent conflicts are often over looked in practice doesn't mean the potential conflict is not there.
There is only a difference in degree with the various attacks on science and separation of church and state in the US which is drifting or being driven to a theocratic basis for the state.

I thought MacGuinty bang on the money to disarm the situation by tossing out the existing religious alternative courts.

Sharia in it's egalitarian issues needs to be taken on by moderate Islam and secular society needs to provide shelter for those caught up in any such radical practices from cults like the Raelians to religious sects attempting to subvert Canadian laws and the Charter principles in particular.


----------



## ComputerIdiot (Jan 8, 2004)

adagio said:


> *snip*
> 
> There isn't a single politician or party that doesn't have dirt hidden under the mat or under the bed. I hope those who spend their day digging it up on the Cons do so with equal zeal when the next party is in power. IMO, they ALL have a hidden agenda.


It's not hidden -- it's to get in power and stay there, whatever it takes.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

*update #3*



> Baghdad — U.S. officials have altered their account of the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, saying he was alive and partly conscious after bombs destroyed his hideout, and an Iraqi witness has raised the possibility that the wounded "al-Qaeda in Iraq" leader was beaten by American troops before he died.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060610.walzar/BNStory/International/home

Once again, you'd think the Americans would get their story straight the first time. If you are going to lie, get your "facts" together first. Of course beating up people is nothing new for the U.S. - especially wounded terrorists....

In other news


> Triple suicide at Guantanamo camp
> 
> White House spokesman Tony Snow said Mr Bush "expressed serious concern" at the deaths.
> 
> ...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068228.stm
Yup, Guantanamo is a fine example of that. Suicide is an example of warfare in this case? Way to go you Fascist state.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

I don't see the motive for the US to beat the guy to death. Getting him alive could reveal all sorts of useful intelligence.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Are you asking me this question? I already said all Canadians deserve equal treatment and due process.


Does this sound like equal treatment and due process VD?


> Lawyer Rocco Galati said his clients were being kept in rooms that are lit 24 hours a day and were denied access to the outdoors for the first five days.
> 
> "They have five minutes to eat their meals or they are taken away," he said.
> 
> ...


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/12/galati-client.html


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Yeah, you can tell what that loud mouthed lawyer is up to. He's trying to set his clients up to get off on technicality. Unfortunately, it may just work.


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

I have to dissagree with you adagio,
If the state has good evidence on these people then they should be able to proceed without the crazy and questionable tactics.
When the cops make these big shows of force in these terrorism cases there seems to be an inverse ratio: the more the show of arms and tv photo opps the worse the case the state has. I hope this is not the case here but considering the media is being shut out of the case already can't say I have any confidence that most if not all the charges are trumped up.
Again I hope I am wrong.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Does this sound like equal treatment and due process VD?


Depends on which point the lawyer raised.

1. "They have five minutes to eat their meals or they are taken away," he said.

Could be an exageration. If true, 5 minutes would be unfair.

2. "The accused are not aliens from another planet. They are Canadians accused under the Criminal Code. No more, no less."

No dispute, but this is only his commentary.

3. When being taken somewhere by guards, they must walk with their legs upright and torso at a 90-degree angle with their arms stretched out, he said.

Who cares? This doesn't affect the outcome of their trial, nor it is punishing in any way. The safety of guards comes first. 

4. Galati also claimed that security officials are leaking information, which could compromise a fair trial. He alleged Monday that "confidential police sources" were feeding information to the news media while lawyers were being kept in the dark.

I think they have released too much information. It would have been better to give a limited amount of details which would have still gotten the point across.


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

> # being in a room with a light on 24 hours a day;
> # being denied leaving this room for the first five days for even 30 seconds;
> # being given only five minutes to eat their meals - otherwise their meals are taken away from them;
> # not being allowed to speak to anyone, including the guards;
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...ageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

Sorry but I view this set of regulations as torture. 
As for the safety of the guards: Give me a break. these people are no more dangerous than any other prisoner in there at the time. There is no need for any of this. Three armed tacticle members. Remember these people are accused not yet guilty. If they are guilty than prove it and lock 'em up. But no darkness and keeping eyes on the floor at all times? No talking?

Since when is this how we run our jails?
I'm disgusted.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Torture? Give me a break. Like I said.... mouthy lawyer.

A quote from a story in today's Star:

"All our institutions are lit 24 hours a day," said Noonan, who added the lights are dimmed in the evenings. "For security reasons, we need to ensure that proper supervision is possible."
Twenty minutes of "fresh air and/or exercise" is also standard, and the "standard dimension" solitary cells are expressly built for "one person."


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

martman said:


> I'm disgusted.


And many of us are delighted that they are getting the treatment a suspected traitor should be getting.

Flame away.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Hate to break it to ya Marg but there's all manner of ways to break a man or woman, and some of these techniques include sensory deprivation and/or sensory bombardment... relentless white noise at high volumes, for example, is demonstrably effective at inducing serious mental and emotional instability. Depriving a body of proper circadian rhythms over a long enough period of time is also an excellent way to bring on physical and mental exhaustion in subjects.

You needn't ever use a truncheon or electrodes on a subject in order to dramatically damage them.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Max, If they are being tortured then every prisoner in solitary confinement is being tortured. Funny, up until this case I haven't heard a hue and cry about prisoners being tortured in Canada. It might not be the presidential suite at the Hyatt but it's perfectly legal and above board.

Just as some have accused the government of manipulating the media so too is this lawyer. He's a smart cookie because he has you all suckered in.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

LOL

Marg, please point out to me where I was saying that the gov is torturing these guys. I thought I was making a point that there are many different definitions of "torture." But if it suits you to think I'm a sucker, please go right ahead.


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

SINC said:


> And many of us are delighted that they are getting the treatment a suspected traitor should be getting.
> 
> Flame away.


This one is easy.
You said it yourself: "suspected traitor".
Sorry if this seems old fasion to you but in my Canada we presume innocence till after the trial. I'll add I see no reason to treat these criminals any differently than rest. We are supposed to be a civilized nation. This means that we don't torture our prisoners.


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

Max said:


> LOL
> 
> Marg, please point out to me where I was saying that the gov is torturing these guys. I thought I was making a point that there are many different definitions of "torture." But if it suits you to think I'm a sucker, please go right ahead.


24 hour lighting is torture. Note in the smoke screen posted above the jailer admits they dimm the lights for the rest of the population.
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html
It's not just a piece of paper it is a comitment to all people even "traitors" and especially suspected "traitors". If we can't honour this now then we are a bunch of sad hypocrites and we may as well become Americans. 

By the way these people have many charges against them. I'm pretty sure treason isn't one of them.
:yikes:

edit; removed the first sentance: He wasn't replying to me


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Well it seems that our PM and many in the public have decided that they are "terrorists" and they want blood. After making a big splash in the news, now there will be a publication ban. 
I don't think they will get a fair trial, but that does not matter because fairness is no longer a Canadian value....


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

adagio said:


> Funny, up until this case I haven't heard a hue and cry about prisoners being tortured in Canada.


Funny, up untill now I've never heard of a courthouse surrounded by police snipers for a bail hearring.
What is your point here?


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Well it seems that our PM and many in the public have decided that they are "terrorists" and they want blood. ....


What has Harper said that offends you so much?


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Well it seems that our PM and many in the public have decided that they are "terrorists" and they want blood. After making a big splash in the news, now there will be a publication ban.
> I don't think they will get a fair trial, but that does not matter because fairness is no longer a Canadian value....


Agreed.
This is embarassing. If they have a case then make it. I want to see what they have because every single time the US did this to someone they got off because the charges were BS. They have been caught they are no longer a threat so all this security hype is just prejudicial and exists for no other reason than to make everyone pre judge them.

I'll wait for the trial but if it is kept secret than I will never trust my government when they accuse someone of being a terrorist again. It is vital we see how these people were caught and what the evidence is against them.
We can't maintain self respect if we follow the American model and arrest thousands to get two convictions.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> What has Harper said that offends you so much?


Nothing to do with Harper directly - seems that they have been tried and convicted by the PM, many MPs (all parties), the media and general population.

So, do you think that it's fine to use torture techniques on the detainees?
Is this your definition of equal treatment? And do you mind if I go to your house and leave the lights on 24/7?


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Nothing to do with Harper directly - seems that they have been tried and convicted by the PM, many MPs (all parties), the media and general population.
> 
> So, do you think that it's fine to use torture techniques on the detainees?
> Is this your definition of equal treatment? And do you mind if I go to your house and leave the lights on 24/7?


If you can't provide a quote from Harper that is so wrong, then quit blaming him. 

Define torture? Leaving lights on and holding your arms up hardly qualify as torture to me.

I take back part of what I said regarding being treated like anybody else. I think a higher level of care and security are required for terrorism suspects. I think some forms of 'coercion' are acceptable. Pulling fingernails and physical violence are too extreme as is saying please. What's acceptable lies somewhere in between and requires serious discussion and open accountability. I think we need to create an international standard, much like the Geneva Convention.


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

Vandave said:


> I think we need to create an international standard, much like the Geneva Convention.


I gave you the link. Here it is again:
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html
It is callled the UN Convention against torture and we have signed it.
It it it makes it clear that 24 hour lighting is indeed torture and if you think otherwise I challenge you to stay in 60 watt of better lighting for a week and tell me how wonderful you feel. Constant light interfears with melatonin production and this affects dream sleep.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

If I recall correctly, for a period of time the Brits had much fun with IRA prisoners subjecting them to non-stop light and extremely loud fans blowing inches away from their heads while being tied up immobile. Try to imagine how annoyed you might be after a half hour of such treatment. Then extrapolate.


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

new quote from toronto star
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...497&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154


> "That torture includes being kept in a room that's lit 24 hours a day, being woken up every half-hour, being beaten by the guards, on and on and on," said Galati, who represents Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, a 21-year-old health sciences graduate of McMaster University.


How about being woken up every half hour in a constantly lit room?
Is that torture?
How about beating by the guards?

Oh I know, Roco is lying isn't he?
I doubt he is. Galatti is a very respected lawyer. Just because you dislike his clients is no reason to question his integrity. Remember in our legal system everyone needs a lawyer even the people you dislike.
I find the frothing at the mouth very upsetting.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> If you can't provide a quote from Harper that is so wrong, then quit blaming him.
> 
> Define torture? Leaving lights on and holding your arms up hardly qualify as torture to me.
> 
> *I take back part of what I said regarding being treated like anybody else. I think a higher level of care and security are required for terrorism suspects. * I think some forms of 'coercion' are acceptable. Pulling fingernails and physical violence are too extreme as is saying please. What's acceptable lies somewhere in between and requires serious discussion and open accountability. I think we need to create an international standard, much like the Geneva Convention.


http://canada.gc.ca/main_e.html
http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=1191

And suicides at Guantanamo are nothing more than a PR stunt....


> Suicides were 'good PR stunt'


http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,19450271%5E912,00.html

Glad to see that now you want something akin to the Geneva Convention... What's the matter, not enough room for torture in the Geneva Convention for you? 

VD, glad to see you going down that slippery slope.... keep on being manipulated and enjoy the fear...

These guys were nothing more than nitwits who have been demonized -


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

martman said:


> How about being woken up every half hour in a constantly lit room?
> Is that torture?
> How about beating by the guards?


None of this will "count" for VD - there are mean guilty "terrorists" and big daddy Harper was right. Right about what, who knows - but I'm sure our local con cornflake will tell us.

-corrected typo


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

martman said:


> new quote from toronto star
> http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...497&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
> 
> 
> ...


If we signed the UN convention, then we should live by it. If constant lighting is considered to be torture, then we should stop doing it.

Without evidence, I have trouble believing the guards are beating them.

He's a lawyer. That's enough to question his integrity.

Who's frothing at the mouth?


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> None of this will "count" for VD - there are mean guilty "terrorists" and big daddy Harper was right. Right about what, who knows - but I'm sure I'll local con cornflake will tell us.


Our court system is based on 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. We the public can judge people under whatever standard we want. I have seen enough evidence to believe they are guilty.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Our court system is based on 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. We the public can judge people under whatever standard we want. I have seen enough evidence to believe they are guilty.





Vandave said:


> Without evidence, I have trouble believing the guards are beating them.


So basically you are saying you don't need evidence because you believe.
Why not just forgot the trial and execute the traitors - it will make you feel better. 

Our course with your moral superiority, we don't need stinking rules. 
I have to laugh - I think you once said you were against the war in Iraq - yet when it comes to a similar set-up in Canada, it seems your brain is hard wired to fall into the same BS the American public bought... 

I guess we will never know what really happened - we can't handle the truth...


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

martman said:


> This one is easy.
> You said it yourself: "suspected traitor".
> Sorry if this seems old fasion to you but in my Canada we presume innocence till after the trial. I'll add I see no reason to treat these criminals any differently than rest. We are supposed to be a civilized nation. This means that we don't torture our prisoners.


And THAT was exactly my point, they ARE being treated the same as any SUSPECTED traitor or criminal. Their lawyers are grandstanding.

And no it does not seem "old fashion" to me, "Old fashioned" perhaps, but not old fashion which is I presume, a fashion show from the 1940s? 

Oh, wait, I forgot to glare at you like you did at me: 

There, that's better.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> So basically you are saying you don't need evidence because you believe.
> Why not just forgot the trial and execute the traitors - it will make you feel better.
> 
> Our course with your moral superiority, we don't need stinking rules.
> ...


You missed my point. Read it again.

Of course the court needs to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't need that level of care to formulate an opinion. Nor do the media or the public.

I believe strongly in fairness and transparency. That's why I wouldn't just execute them. In any case, I don't believe in the death penalty.

I don't agree with the Iraq war. There was no link between Iraq and Islamic Extremism or terrorism (aside from funding Hamas and suicide bombers perhaps). Why are you bringing this up? There is no logical link here. Verbal diarrhea comes to mind.


----------



## ComputerIdiot (Jan 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> You missed my point. Read it again.
> 
> Of course the court needs to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't need that level of care to formulate an opinion. Nor do the media or the public.
> 
> *snip*


If the courts find them not guilty, will you accept that as an accurate verdict?


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ComputerIdiot said:


> If the courts find them not guilty, will you accept that as an accurate verdict?


Yes, I have faith in our court system.

Doesn't mean I still won't think they are guilty. OJ comes to mind.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Yes, I have faith in our court system.
> 
> Doesn't mean I still won't think they are guilty. OJ comes to mind.


Basically you are hard wired to believe they are guilty no matter what.
Onward neocon soldier...! 

guilty of what? Saying nasty things about some Canadians and insulting your mommy? Can't wait for Canada to use those security certificates.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Basically you are hard wired to believe they are guilty no matter what.
> Onward neocon soldier...!
> 
> guilty of what? Saying nasty things about some Canadians and insulting your mommy? Can't wait for Canada to use those security certificates.


Right, I see....they bought 3 tonnes of ammonium nitrate to grow flowers for their moms. Such a leap of faith on my part to think they had bad intentions. :lmao:


----------



## ComputerIdiot (Jan 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Right, I see....they bought 3 tonnes of ammonium nitrate to grow flowers for their moms. Such a leap of faith on my part to think they had bad intentions. :lmao:


Yep. After all, there's always _next_ Mother's Day ....


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> Such a leap of faith on my part to think they had bad intentions. :lmao:


Since when is bad intentions a crime? If that were so, our gaols would be full...


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Since when is bad intentions a crime? If that were so, our gaols would be full...


http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Intent


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

And how would actus reus and mens rea apply here? It still has to be proven...


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> And how would actus reus and mens rea apply here? It still has to be proven...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempt


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

VD, you have declared these "terrorists" guilty no matter what the courts decides. Is there any point of even discussing this with you? 

You are so happy to have found your boogeymen that one can sense the excitement about you. Thrilling is it not? What will likely amount to goading kids for the most part, is such excitement for you. You have your bad guys - would they have ordered (not that they all did btw) ammonium nitrate without the encouragement of our law officials? I'd like to know - but of course we won't because of the media ban. 

After the police parade their evidence to the media and turn the courthouse into a show for the latest in sniper equipment, it's decided to have a secret trial. This shall go over well with some - is the crown so afraid that we will laugh at what passes as evidence? I hope not...

You believe in the Justice system yet declare them guilty and don't mind that basics rights are being eroded. I'm sure you also get a kick at the show that the police and friends are doing. 

You have no qualms about lowering ourselves and standards because you think they are guilty - your intolerance is so telling - should we have exception to every objectionable group in the way they are treated? You have the same view on tolerances as the Taliban....


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> VD, you have declared these "terrorists" guilty no matter what the courts decides. Is there any point of even discussing this with you?
> You are so happy to have found your boogeymen that one can sense the excitement about you. Thrilling is it not? What will likely amount to goading kids for the most part, is such excitement for you. You have your bad guys - would they have ordered (not that they all did btw) ammonium nitrate without the encouragement of our law officials? I'd like to know - but of course we won't because of the media ban.
> You believe in the Justice system yet declare them guilty and don't mind that basics rights are being eroded. I'm sure you also get a kick at the show that the police and friends are doing.
> You have no qualms about lowering ourselves and standards because you think they are guilty - your intolerance is so telling - should we have exception to every objectionable group in the way they are treated? You have the same view on tolerances as the Taliban....


I feel no need to defend myself against your ridiculous assertions. 

Either your reading comprehension is non-existent or you are being wilfully deceitful and disingenuous. My guess would be the later. Either way, it doesn't bode well for you.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

LOL, from the time you started this thread you have been so happy in your fear about "terrorist" - You have used mostly convoluted logic to convince yourself of these boogeymen. 
One of the first to jump on "they hate use because of our freedoms" 
http://www.ehmac.ca/showpost.php?p=408940&postcount=8
Not once looking at causality - 
The biggest threat to Liberal Democracies are people that are afraid of terrorists, those that agree to erosion of civil liberties and are ready to march to a fascist drum beat. These threats will not come for other countries but within Canada and our collective reaction to fear mongering and manipulation. Welcome to Amerika lite.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> LOL, from the time you started this thread you have been so happy in your fear about "terrorist" -


Come back when you pass.

http://www.abcteach.com/directory/reading_comprehension/


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Is that the best you have? :lmao:
That explains your political allegiance. :yikes: 
Have a good evening and remember to look under your bed....


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

A few things that need clarifying:

1) Is, for example, 24/7 lighting considered torture? Extreme examples of torture are obvious, but is solitary confinement torture? Maybe not short-term, but at what point is it? Same goes for light -- 24 hours of light, 48, 72? These are not questions easily answered with self-righteous condemnation. Torture is not a black & white concept, so please try not to treat it as such. 

From martman's link:
.....
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person
..
It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
..... 

2) It almost seems like the law enforcement community is being convicted based purely on assertions by the defendants' lawyer that will be based purely on what the defendants told him. That's probably just my impression, but it seems a little far-fetched to question that due process is happening but condemn the law enforcement community without any process.

3) I've heard of less significant trials that banned the media from them. Does anyone know the standard/reasoning by which this decision is made?


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060613.TERRORTORTURE13/TPStory/

.....
Through their lawyers, the suspects say they are facing cruel and unusual punishment in solitary confinement, where the lights are always on. The lawyers also say it's unreasonable for prisoners to be allowed to leave their cells for only 20 minutes of exercise daily.

But officials say many of these practices are standard. "As you imagine, we can't have our cells in complete darkness, for security reasons," Ms. Noonan said, adding that lights are dimmed at night.

Some suspects are alleging they have been roughed up by guards, or chafed by handcuffs. "Under the convention against torture and other cruel and unusual punishment, the instances of mistreatment that defence counsel have cited as going on at the jail constitute torture," Rocco Galati, a lawyer for one of the accused, told reporters.

But another lawyer, James Silver, characterized things somewhat differently. "There are concerns about the manner in which the young men are being treated," he said. But he added that he has worked out some of these issues -- such as getting the suspects knives and forks, and arranging person-to-person family visits -- by calling Maplehurst directly.

Mr. Silver said he will wait until a June 26 hearing to raise other issues.
......


----------



## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

This thread is curing my insomnia. Yay! Just kidding, it's only 9:00 AM here in Montreal. Hey AS, you should start a new party here in Quebec. I'll back you up: we can call it the Bloc Canadien


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Beej, I'm no expert but I can think of a couple of valid reasons for a media ban.

I know from experience sometimes it's done to protect the victim. That doesn't apply to this case. There are other reasons such as protecting witnesses and sensitive material. Also, don't forget there are young offenders involved. Even though they will each have their own trial, their names and identities are bound to be brought up in terms with the other offenders.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> 1) Is, for example, 24/7 lighting considered torture? Extreme examples of torture are obvious, but is solitary confinement torture? Maybe not short-term, but at what point is it? Same goes for light -- 24 hours of light, 48, 72? These are not questions easily answered with self-righteous condemnation. Torture is not a black & white concept, so please try not to treat it as such.


What's the purpose of lights-on? What purpose does it serve? 
Given the vigilant-like response on this forum, how hard is it to believe that these suspect are being mistreated?
Why disperse with the rights and principles that we cherish so much? Is it because they are "terrorists"? 
I guess abuse of power and bending over backwards to apologize for shameful circus show are Canadian values now?

Beej, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Being accused of being a terrorist, limited access to outside help, lights-on: placed under immense stress. And what have you done? Who knows, because this feels like a show trial. 
Whatever happened to due process?


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> 3) I've heard of less significant trials that banned the media from them. Does anyone know the standard/reasoning by which this decision is made?


If you make big headlines with terrorists arrest, I expect to see your proof.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

AS, you will see/hear the proof.... after the trial is over.

In my mind this is not unlike the media circus which proceeded the Paul Bernardo trial and then the media ban placed on the trial. If you were around at the time you'd see striking similarities between these high profile cases.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> What's the purpose of lights-on? What purpose does it serve?


I believe the authorities said that was because the suspects were on suicide watch and you can't watch them via camera without light. The question is, though, are they complaining about a dim light or a sun blaring light. Some context is required.



ArtistSeries said:


> Given the vigilant-like response on this forum, how hard is it to believe that these suspect are being mistreated?
> Why disperse with the rights and principles that we cherish so much? Is it because they are "terrorists"?
> I guess abuse of power and bending over backwards to apologize for shameful circus show are Canadian values now?


Isn't being jailed or inprisoned about removing people's privileges, though. Why should they have the privilege to pray together, it's a privilege not a right. Why should they have the privilege to see their family? So far, except for some minor beating, I haven't heard of any abuse.

It's also worth noting that it sounds like they haven't been put in with the general prison/jail population. This may be why they are in solitary confinement and not allowed out, so that they are not in areas where the general prison/jail population can abuse them.



ArtistSeries said:


> Beej, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Being accused of being a terrorist, limited access to outside help, lights-on: placed under immense stress. And what have you done? Who knows, because this feels like a show trial.
> Whatever happened to due process?


Isn't this how we treat people who attempt murder. We imprison them without bail until their trial? Limit who they talk to. I wouldn't want an alleged murderer set free on bail, would you? In fact these people are worse than alleged murderers are they not, we could consider them people who have allegedly committed treason or consider these prisoners of war. As for due process, they have lawyers, they've been allowed to talk to their lawyer. They had their bail hearing. Sounds to me like due process is being followed.


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Basically you are hard wired to believe they are guilty no matter what.
> Onward neocon soldier...!


Coming from AS, thats the funniest "pot calling kettle black" statement I've read in days. In AS's world, its a crime to look at evidence and make assumptions or draw conclusions... unless of course that person happens to be either American or Conservative then you can make all the groundless accusations and assumptions you like. 

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Please MacGuiver....
You have VD saying that having seen a bag of "show" fertilizer that's the "terrorists" are guilty. 

Now go and dig up where I have accused Americans or Conservatives with groundless accusations....


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

Kosh said:


> So far, except for some minor beating, I haven't heard of any abuse.


Either you didn't read any of my posts or you are lying.
Being woken up every half hour is abuse. I challenge you to try and show me otherwise. 24 hour lighting is abuse. I do agree that if they are dimmed it is not the same but the indication is the lights are dimmed for the general population but not for these prisoners. Note: the corrections Canada official never claimed the lights are dimmed for these prisoners. 
24 hour lighting and being woken up every half hour, not allowed to talk even to guards, must look at the floor. 

Let see any one of you who say this is not torture to try all of this for a week.

I am very disturbed by the justification of "torture light" comming out of this forum.

Go vote for Ignatieff. tptptptp


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I am very disturbed by the justification of "torture light" comming out of this forum.
> 
> Go vote for Ignatieff.


:clap:


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Given the vigilant-like response on this forum, how hard is it to believe that these suspect are being mistreated?
> Why disperse with the rights and principles that we cherish so much? Is it because they are "terrorists"?
> ............
> Beej, put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Being accused of being a terrorist, limited access to outside help, lights-on: placed under immense stress. And what have you done? Who knows, because this feels like a show trial.
> Whatever happened to due process?


Could be, but some seem more willing to question the accusations against the alleged terrorists while accepting the allegations made by one of their lawyers. 

Note your wording:
Why disperse with the rights and principles that we cherish so much?

Seems to jump to judgement in the way that you are criticising jumping to judgement. It is just a language thing (I hope) but it gives the appearance of a double standard.
..........
That would be horrid but, as has been pointed out, people accused of dangerous crimes are separated from the public to remove the alleged public threat and proceed with due process. If unfair treatment has occurred it needs to be established and put through its own due process. It may turn out to be dramatically overblown claims, or even fabricated, or maybe the accused were treated unfairly. 

Maybe a technicality will end the process, either process, and we can forever be angry about something and criticise each other for not agreeing with the process (or lack thereof) that took place. beejacon I just don't know, the voices in my head just won't tell me. Sorry if you're looking for definitive statements, but we don't, in my opinion, have enough information to make too many of those.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

C'mon Beej - the cops are being bullies - better they were held by the RCMP.
Cop culture is NOT politically correct.......more's the pity.
Yes the lawyer is playing it up and they do need to be segregated BUT walking bent over at 90 degrees - that's unneeded and humiliating - these are accused CANADIANS - not convicted........
They have strong rights and more importantly the Muslim community needs to SEE those rights are being protected both before and after trial.

Robert Fisk has it right



> What is the term 'brown-skinned' doing on the front page of a major Canadian daily?
> 
> Published: 10 June 2006
> This has been a good week to be in Canada - or an awful week, depending on your point of view - to understand just how irretrievably biased and potentially racist the Canadian press has become. For, after the arrest of 17 Canadian Muslims on "terrorism" charges, the Toronto Globe and Mail and, to a slightly lesser extent, the National Post, have indulged in an orgy of finger pointing that must reduce the chances of any fair trial and, at the same time, sow fear in the hearts of the country's more than 700,000 Muslims. In fact, if I were a Canadian Muslim right now, I'd already be checking the airline timetables for a flight out of town. Or is that the purpose of this press campaign?
> ...


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article754394.ece


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> C'mon Beej - the cops are being bullies - better they were held by the RCMP.
> Cop culture is NOT politically correct.......more's the pity.
> Yes the lawyer is playing it up and they do need to be segregated BUT wlaking bent over at 90 degrees - that's unneeded and humiliating - these are accused CANADIANS - not convicted........
> ..........
> They have strong rights and more importantly the Muslim community needs to SEE those rights are being protected both before and after trial.


Then it needs to be followed up on. Yes there are many problems with local police, it is not just rumours. TO has documented questionable practices, EDM police got caught targetting a journalist (really dumb...recorded coversation) and more examples are out there. But, as with the accused terrorists, the court of public opinion is not enough. 

This shouldn't change the trial of the accused terrorists (legal strategy to encourage conditions for mistrial...possibly. Who 'leaked' the more sensational accusations against the alleged terrorists?).

Mistreated or not, were they planning what they were accused of? If so, time for jail. Maybe we'll have everybody accused of something in this situation being charged. A black-eye for legal enforcement, but mistreatment is not evidence of innocence.
........
Most definitely. All alleged wrong-doing needs to be looked into. Will everyone be satisfied with the results? :lmao:


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MD: If you're going to use a Fisk article, I'll use a Coyne response. Tit-for-tat. 

http://andrewcoyne.com/2006/06/fisking-fisk-first.php

I, however, will not post the text and am thus doing my part to protect innocents from exposure to unwanted opinions.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

A tarnished coyne indeed. Spare me the Toronto hack versus the most decorated journalist in the world.



> Robert Fisk (born 1946, Maidstone, Kent) is a British journalist, currently Middle East correspondent for the British newspaper The Independent.
> Described by the New York Times as "probably the most famous foreign correspondent in Britain",[1] he has over thirty years of experience in international reporting, dating from 1970s Belfast and Portugal's 1974 Carnation Revolution, the 1975-1990 Lebanese Civil War, and encompassing the 1979 Iranian revolution, the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war, 1991 Persian Gulf War, and 2003 Invasion of Iraq. *He is the world's most-decorated foreign correspondent*,[2] having received numerous awards *including the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year award seven times. Fisk speaks good vernacular Arabic, and is one of the few Western journalists to have interviewed Osama bin Laden (three times between 1994 and 1997).*


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> A tarnished coyne indeed. Spare me the Toronto hack versus the most decorated journalist in the world.


Awards or not, that piece is not a good one. Look at how he tries to make his point. The thesis may be worthy, but the body isn't. It's ok. Everybody has their off days.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk

The more I use wiki, the more useful it seems. Not always spot-on, but a lot of good information and some leads to aid further digging.

......
In particular Fisk's reporting of his 2001 encounter with Afghan refugees has encouraged commentators "to lump Fisk with Chomsky, Pilger, Naomi Klein in the category of anti-American loonies."
......

Not that's over-the-top, he can't be that stupid.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> MD: If you're going to use a Fisk article, I'll use a Coyne response. Tit-for-tat.


How the mighty have fallen.... Using a con fart catcher as a counterpoint to your argument  

I'm glad that you are coming around to Wiki - it can be a good source at times. 

As for the accusation against the "terrorists", if true then then deserve whatever they will get. If these are exaggerated claims by our government with specious and non-existant "proof" obtained by misleading ways, there will have been no justice and Canadians will be worse off.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> How the mighty have fallen....


I was mighty? From you that means that in reasonable terms I was all-knowing.  Just kidding, have a :lmao: , I'm not trying to start another round of random flamethrowing in this thread.

Coyne, no matter how much you hate him and his ideology that differs from yours (not as much as you may think), has a point in this case. Not eloquent because he is, after all, just a 'Toronto hack', but a point nonetheless. Go figure.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Gimme a break. Someone is getting desperate if they're trying to play the racist card. This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with terrorists, be they white, red, yellow, black, or green. As one person said we had the same media circus around the Bernardo trial and an even better example would be the Karla Homoca release. I didn't hear anyone claiming racism there. Let's call everyone who is part of a media circus racist. Let's call all those celebrities that complained about the seal hunt racists. Harassing the seal hunters, they have to be racist, they only went after seal hunters.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> Coyne, no matter how much you hate him and his ideology that differs from yours


I don't hate Coyne - just find him insignificant.
Yes he's a Libertarian and we do agree on strong (not big) Federal government. 

His "fisking" blog entry is puerile, illogical and poorly thought out crap.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> His "fisking" blog entry is puerile, illogical and poorly thought out crap.


And Fisk's column?

Either way, so be it. Back to the terrorist threat and rampant abuse of civil rights. beejacon


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Professional jealously comes to mind.... he's ...ahem...a provincial.

•••

Compare the "terrorist" hoopla to this



> Police lay charges in Boxing Day shooting
> TERRY WEBER AND TENILLE BONOGUORE
> Globe and Mail Update
> Toronto police have charged eight people — all with gang links — in connection with a shocking downtown Boxing Day shooting which claimed the life of a Toronto teenager, Police Chief William Blair said Tuesday.
> ...


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060613.w2creba06131/BNStory/National/home

Where's the big show by police??
The same howling vigilante mob was claiming gang members behind every dumpster 

Meanwhile the "good ol boys" in Calgary mow down a couple of pedestrians and there's barely a sniff........"boys will be boy's y'know....a little liqur at the corner store cain't hurt none"


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Yeah you're right MD, this IS big news. They finally caught the killers, I assume, in the brazen daylight killing in the middle of a crowded, popular area, that scared alot of Torontonians who were worrying that this type of crime could happen anywhere anytime. It's also good news if true. 

It may show the police are getting somewhere on gun crime in Toronto, or that will be the political spin on this most likely.


----------



## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

In light of all the allegations of torture coming from the terror suspects, its interesting to note that it could very well be a play right out of the Al Qaeda Training Manual.



> RISONS AND DETENTION CENTERS
> 
> IF AN INDICTMENT IS ISSUED AND THE TRIAL BEGINS, THE BROTHER HAS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE FOLLOWING:
> 
> ...


This is from a manual recovered during the Manchester bombings investigation.
You can see the contents here http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/network/alqaeda/manual.html

Cheers
MacGuiver


----------



## martman (May 5, 2005)

Perhaps but I still haven't seen the feds deny anything.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

martman said:


> Perhaps but I still haven't seen the feds deny anything.


Unfortunately all the rebuttals don't make the headlines like screaming "torture" does. With a bit of digging yesterday I did see a few of the media make some remarks. Here's one.

Here's a letter to the editor. It's anonymously signed but I've already figured what he wrote is probably true from speaking with folks I know who have been incarcerated.

"Jail isn't a country club

About 15 years ago, I spent quite a bit of time in our prison system. I grew up as a young man who craved the attention and "prestige" that a street lifestyle brought within my group of friends.

I spent about four years within the provincial prison system, and in holding facilities similar to the one where the 17 alleged terrorists are being held.

Their lawyers suggest they are being tortured. Well, welcome to jail!

The lights never go out for security reasons. The lights are dimmed so you can sleep, but when the correctional officers are making their rounds they have to see into the cells to make sure you are okay. Even in segregation, where I spent some time, there are no cells that don't have some sort of window. As for being awakened every half hour, a head count and well-being check is done every half hour on every prisoner. 


These men may feel they are being targeted but they are not. I, too, had trouble sleeping for the first month, then I slept like a baby -- I didn't hear noises or awaken when I heard the keys in doors anymore.

Yes, the prison system can be incredibly intimidating. It's meant to be. If it was designed to be a resort of some kind, do you really think people would be afraid of going to prison?

As for the allegations of physical abuse, I don't know. However, most guards I encountered would only put their hands on a prisoner if threatened themselves.

These lawyers need to give it a rest. While incarcerated, I did not have a moment's privacy. When I spoke to my attorney, there were always guards around. Yes, they are outside the door -- not to spy on you, but to protect you.

Deal with it, people. Keep your head down and take your fight into the courtroom on your day in court.

Today I work in a public field, where many people depend on me. I swear the one thing that saved my life was going to prison.

Name withheld by request


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Excellent post adagio. :clap:

I suspected their lawyers were "grandstanding" and it appears that just might be the case.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

SINC, I'm really glad there is a media ban now. No more grandstanding by anyone. This is Canada, not the US. Let the suspects be tried in court by judge and jury... not by the media. I never want to see an "OJ Simpson like" circus here.

The facts will come out in court. The media will be there taking notes. Nothing will be "hidden" from us as some people claim. I find it interesting that a few of the same people complaining of the dog and pony show and media circus so far also feel somehow entitled to a daytime drama event via live coverage of the trial. Sorry folks, you're going to have to wait to hear about the juicy bits for a couple of years.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> I find it interesting that a few of the same people complaining of the dog and pony show and media circus _so far also feel somehow entitled to a daytime drama event via live coverage of the trial_


support for that statement?


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> support for that statement?


Not you, specifically.

I don't have time to go back in the thread and pick out who said what. There ARE at least one or two who did complain about the media circus and have since complained about a media ban. They have claimed a desire to "see" the evidence presented.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Their lawyers suggest they are being tortured. Well, welcome to jail!


torture for alleged criminals - yeah, that's the hallmark of a mature society

why not just execute them now and be done with a pesky trial, due process, etc.?


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

adagio said:


> Not you, specifically.
> 
> I don't have time to go back in the thread and pick out who said what. There ARE at least one or two who did complain about the media circus and have since complained about a media ban. They have claimed a desire to "see" the evidence presented.


The police/politicians/officials made a big splash with their media circus. They presented "show" evidence. After putting on a "sham" display of goods and turning the courthouse into a display of the latest sniper apparel they want to stop the flow of information? 
If the evidence is so strong, they should have no qualms about showing it to the world.... 
Contrast the arrest of those accused in the Toronto boxing day shooting with the circus the big bad weekend "terrorists"....

The government came out grand-standing, turned the who affair into a media circus. When some journalist actually started doing their jobs, it seemed that there was a lot of fear-mongering for little boys playing paint ball.... 
Let the court decides their fates but let Canadians see the evidence.

It's enough that our security certificates seem like some dystopian invention....


----------



## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

adagio said:


> Name withheld by request


Great post, adagio. If you ever care to put a name to the story, you probably have a book and/or screenplay here. I know a writer when I see one.

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> torture for alleged criminals - yeah, that's the hallmark of a mature society
> 
> why not just execute them now and be done with a pesky trial, due process, etc.?


Man, you should become a journalist... the way you took that statement completely out of context and tried to spin it around would win you an award. Read the whole email Macspectrum. I think that letter dispells most of the alleged torture, except for the alleged beatings.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Adagio
Umm a media ban is a far cry from your daytime drama ala OJ hyperbole.
Justice must be SEEN to be open and transparent and "innocent until proven guilty.

Not as practiced by the prosecution with the crime drama show and tell nonsense. That bit of theatre has drawn rightful criticism from many around the world and many here in Ontario if you care to read the letters.

Poverty, lack of opportunity, criminal organization driven by drug profits, political ideologies, family disputes and other forces result in criminal acts that require a multi part justice system to deal with.
Police are not prosecutors.
Prosecutors nor defense lawyers are not judges.

The system can and has been subverted in working properly by media manipulation by Police or prosecutor or defence lawyers.
I am very much reminded of Stephen Truscott who came with in an ace of being hanged through a subverted justice procedure that took decades to correct.

There are 17 suspects that need to be seen to get fair and even handed treatment at all levels of the justice system.
They are Canadian citizens - not yet convicted of any crime.
Let the justice system with it's checks and balances work in a non-volatile atmosphere - not the howling mob style far far too much in evidence that has cops at my local schools and too many Canadians fearful of prejudice and bigotry.

THAT's the criminal act to date, that 1/3 of my community has to deal with and that's a done thing.

It's up to the justice system to see what the 17 accused actually are guilty of.
To some degree - worldwide and in the eyes of every immigrant and many Canadians like myself the Canadian justice system from end to end is also in the dock to be judged.

So far....it's not doing well in my eyes as "fair and balanced and worthy of respect" in this particular case.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I'm not disagreeing about what has already taken place. The circus was a disgrace.

I don't, however, have a problem with a media ban. There will be 12 jurors selected. It is THEY who will decide whether the evidence presented is proof of guilt. In the Canadian justice system it they, not you or I or anyone here, that makes that decision and so it should be.

If the evidence is bad, the suspects will be freed.... the same as any other criminal trial.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I think the media ban AFTER the show and tell by prosecutors opens the system up to questions - why now after all the hoopla.
Without the dog and pony show then perhaps a media ban would have been appropriate.
Once again it's about perception by those observing.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

PBS is currently showing a documentary on this terror plot.


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Thanks for letting us know. I set my PVR for the rerun at 1:00am in HD. I take it your talking about some TV series called Frontline which seems to have a documentary about terrorist cells North America. Maybe this will give an update on the case.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Kosh said:


> Thanks for letting us know. I set my PVR for the rerun at 1:00am in HD. I take it your talking about some TV series called Frontline which seems to have a documentary about terrorist cells North America. Maybe this will give an update on the case.


That's the one. Yes it gives an update on the Toronto terror cell. 

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/canada602/


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Recall that dog an pony show.....it is RAPIDLY disintegrating.....



> *Crown frees three in terror case*
> 
> OMAR EL AKKAD AND COLIN FREEZE
> Globe and Mail Update
> ...


how many is that now with charges stayed or dropped??? 

we're down to six and falling...from 18...and left twice that number radicalized by their treatment.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## 5andman (Oct 15, 2006)

Why can't people think for themselves and not follow blindly.

I'm hoping for a day when little space aliens drop by and announce that "they were kidding about the religion thing!"


----------



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Another ancient threat brought back to the fore...

Just demonstrates exactly how terrible our system actually is.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Pretty old thread but I will repeat myself.

The odds that I will be killed in a terrorist attack sometime in the next year are more remote than the odds of my dating a super model.  

It is twice as likely I will be struck by lightning as compared to being killed by a terrorist.beejacon 

It is about 10,000 more likely that I will be audited by Revenue Canada than die in a terrorist attack.:-( :-( :-( 

I will take my chances with terrorists and super models can take their chances on avoiding me. beejacon beejacon

I really need protection from those willing to compromise my civil rights in order to save me from terrorists.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

TheStar.com | Canada | 'Digimonster' plot alleged



Toronto Star said:


> A Canadian software developer designed a remote bomb detonator that was to be used in a plot to murder people in clubs, railway stations and a shopping centre in Britain, an Ottawa court heard yesterday.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...







MacDoc said:


> Recall that dog an pony show.....it is RAPIDLY disintegrating.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Awful lot of alleged in there....let's look how the crown is faring....



> *Witness talks of `fantasy' not terror *
> 
> June 18, 2008
> Thomas Walkom
> ...


then 



> *Crown turns on own witness*
> 
> ANDREW WALLACE/TORONTO STAR
> 
> ...


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

MacDoc, those articles predate the release of a lot of new information, not before publicly available. It will be interesting to see what happens next.


----------



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
This case is going to be a bigger farce that OJ Simpson...

I think this whole thing is less about actual crimes against the nation and people; and more about a group of psycho-nutcases that need some psychiatric assistance. I mean, the one dude joined Al-Qaida because his parents had to make mortgage payments on their house, which is "against" the Qur'an. I think someone that is that far disconnected from reality deserves a nice long vacation in Penetang...

It also helped that they were trying to make some kind of Oklahoma Bomb. Really, making a bomb and belonging to Al-Qaida is worthy of a very thorough "investigation", perhaps with a fire hose so they will learn to behave. In fact, it would be good to bring back tar and feathering, that would go a long way to showing these losers that we mean business. On the other hand, the Government really strives to protect all sorts of criminals, even Chretien and his goons, so why should we single out Al-Qaida when we are riddled with various Nazi war criminals, mafias, confederacies, gangs, and whatever.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Being in contact with the British cells who were massing the kinds of explosives and quantities similar to the Oklahoma bombings, and who did actually kill Brits on buses and subways, makes this deadly serious. If this is a farce to you, you're missing something. They weren't training to get better skills at camping.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

The comparison to car accidents and hospitals is, to be nice, ludicrous.

Ask someone wounded by a bomb on a British bus if they would rather have been hurt driving themself to the hospital, or being bombed. Just thinking about it destroys brain cells.

As for being despised by the Middle East, in most areas people can make up their own minds and equally hate their own despotic rulers--democracies (not that they're all they're cracked up to be) being in horrendously short supply.

In some areas though, when children are schooled to hate the US and Israel they hardly have a choice.

Absolutely the US has to stop attacking countries this way. No kidding. Nobody here (I hope) is suggesting that the US attack Iran. But continuing to decimate their nuclear capability seems like a really good idea.





MasterBlaster said:


> That is true However.
> 
> You must also look at how many people die in hospitals and car accidents. Far more people die form unsafe American vehicle rollovers in the USA alone. But hey, they look cool and it would slightly reduce profits on those vehicles. Large numbers of people die every year from various medical prescription and procedural screwups.
> 
> ...


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

MacDoc said:


> Awful lot of alleged in there...


The media typically uses the term "alleged" until it is proven the contrary. Sometimes they also use "accused". Nothing out of the ordinary there.


----------



## nicepaddy44 (Jun 24, 2008)

*anything is possible*

Where you have one group of people that are of one nationality or race or creed and they have one belief, then within that group, you will have various thoughts on how to achieve that belief....Some will want it done through political debate, others will want it through political action, still others will want it quicker through any means possible, either peacful or proactive...
In Canada, we have a very large group of people that form one particular branch of the ethnic world...Within that same group are various opinions..Please dont think that it isnt possible for some of them to harbour thoughts that are not completely peaceful and harmless...Most of course are peaceloving and have no other designs other than to live here and enjoy the country for what it is....
Having lived in Northern Ireland for much of my life and having lived through the turmoil of that little province, I know about which I speak....The only difference bewtween then and now is that terrorism in Ireland was "somewhat" more "civilised" than what it is today..The Irish suicide bomber was unheard of


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Most people and media cannot identify terrorism properly. Albeit, a definition is far from being developed and agreed upon, there are many characteristics that can broadly identify terrorism.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> I think you miss the point that the odds of being victim of a terrorist attack are very very small, the odds of being injured or killed in a vehicle accident or from a medical treatment mistake are several thousand times higher.
> That is very true and it is very sick.
> Americans are also brainwashed from childhood with indoctrination to a lesser extent that USA can do no wrong,etc. etc.


So if, based on odds, it was 6 billion to one that some disgruntled loser was on their way to see you, and somebody could stop them, with your luck of the draw example, the killer should be allowed to continue since the whole event was so unlikely, or because they were even more unlikely to hurt anyone else, having targetted only you?

Americans may be indoctrinated to believe their country is great, but there is also a massive tradition in the US for challenging authority, muckraking, protest, demonstration and civil rights--even if the powers that be pretend these don't exist and the right-wing media don't report it. There is far more dissent than here in Canada. More cause for it, maybe, but still far more dissent south of us than here.


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

MasterBlaster said:


> I think you miss the point that the odds of being victim of a terrorist attack are very very small, the odds of being injured or killed in a vehicle accident or from a medical treatment mistake are several thousand times higher.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, I´d hate Israel and the US if I was the bastard son of a Palestinian who got his land and country taken from by the Americans and the British and then had to live in the biggest open aired jail, the West Bank or the Gaza strip.

I do not think it is sick at all.


----------



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> Most people and media cannot identify terrorism properly. Albeit, a definition is far from being developed and agreed upon, there are many characteristics that can broadly identify terrorism.


I think it would involve terror...


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Adrian. said:


> Man, I´d hate Israel and the US if I was the bastard son of a Palestinian who got his land and country taken from by the Americans and the British and then had to live in the biggest open aired jail, the West Bank or the Gaza strip.
> 
> I do not think it is sick at all.


Would it be worse if you were one of the 100s of 1000s of similar people who lived, as you perhaps have always done, in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria or other Arab countries where you had absolutely no rights, no right to land, no right to protest your lack of rights, no civil rights, nothing? Well, screw that, go ask your sworn enemies, whose right to exist you don't recognize, to give up the land they were given--or took by force when your host country attacked them on some holy day or other. Better now?


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

You're absolutely right. Real terrorism is more of a problem than some hypothetical situation where someone is on their way to kill you, but might not. We'll give him a pass this time.

Still, being part of the effort to kill Brits on subways and buses, and plotting to kill Canadians, in Toronto, Ottawa, and elsewhere, remains a crime.

The US should not have created real terrorists in Iraq. Killing Saddam, if that was the goal, was certainly possible by other means.

And if the homegrown terrorists were in fact plotting to kill Canadians, here and now, they don't get a pass. They get to go to jail--directly.




MasterBlaster said:


> Its a matter of perspective I guess. I prefer to worry more about things that are more likely to be real threats. I'm not so worried about the 6 billion to one odds.
> 
> Much of the fear over terrorism is manufactured to make people think in a specific way according to the agenda of government and big business. If people didn't let terrorism worry them on a large scale it would disempower the terrorists. They thrive on your fear and that they are successful in altering your thinking habits. So does the government.


----------



## nicepaddy44 (Jun 24, 2008)

*Two wrongs, do not make a right*



HowEver said:


> Would it be worse if you were one of the 100s of 1000s of similar people who lived, as you perhaps have always done, in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria or other Arab countries where you had absolutely no rights, no right to land, no right to protest your lack of rights, no civil rights, nothing? Well, screw that, go ask your sworn enemies, whose right to exist you don't recognize, to give up the land they were given--or took by force when your host country attacked them on some holy day or other. Better now?


The Western part of the World, tends to think of itself as more "civilised" than other parts...Unfortunately the example they have set as land lords or occupiers, has at times been far from "civilised"
Not too many Countries, if any at all ,can boast that they give but didnt take.
It still does not justify anyone having the right to kill others in the name of revenge or religion or whatever excuse they call it..\
Terrorism idealology isn't just to prey on our fears, it is also rooted in disrupting normal everyday life, in way that does not allow your fears to subside..
How would you do that in Canada, with it being such a big country ??? I know how I would do it, but I have no wish of giving ideas to others who may not have thought of it and who may have designs on such goals and who may read these comments


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

You know, as much as we might sympathize, conspiracy to murder in Ontario and London doesn't get a free pass, indirectly or directly, nor is seen to get one, because you were hard done by some time ago far away.





MasterBlaster said:


> *NO!*​
> In Vancouver they make money stealing and selling stolen property and drugs. They are protected by the Vancouver Police who they pay a very lucrative commission to. The courts, lawyers, and politicians are on their payroll here.
> 
> Untouchables.​
> My woman and I were caught in the middle of that horrible mess. It was the most unbelievable nightmare. In the beginning of it I thought for sure it would be easy as pie to get those scumbags charged with a bunch of stuff. Eventually we got a bunch of them in a lot of hot water with student loan fraud, id theft, collecting welfare under multiple identities, Revenue Canada, and immigration. Some of them were deported. The rest are still thieving, and drug dealing in Vancouver with the blessing of the local police force and corrupt civil servants.tptptptp


----------



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

MB, I'm still not getting it. Why would preventing injustice in this alleged terrorist case be precluded by injustices having been perpetrated in other instances? So that similar and dissimilar evils can continue to happen? Really?


----------

