# Politically Correct Best Wishes for the Holiday.



## Heart

_Via an email I received, Author unknown._

Best Wishes for the Holiday Season

This seems perhaps more politically correct. 

I wanted to send out some sort of holiday greeting but it is so difficult in today's world to know exactly what to say without offending someone. I met with my attorney today, and on his advice I want to say to all of you:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2003, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make Canada great (not to imply that Canada is necessarily greater than any other country), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, or sexual preference of the wishee.

By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

So. . . Best Wishes for the Holiday Season!

Heck with the lawyers!

Merry Christmas and a
Happy New Year to all!


----------



## MacDoc

Cute and too true.
I use Merry New Year and Happy Holidays as a matter of course and that generally covers it all including my own comfort level.
The Grinch may grumble a bit but even he can't argue with those.

BTW for all the Wickens - Happy Winter Solstice. That's my favorite celebration for this time of year. The days getting longer is REAL good news.


----------



## ehMax

Really funny comics over at Joy of Tech:










Lots more really good funny Mac / Christmas comics there! Check it out!


----------



## sniper

i, myself, being of an unrecognized religion have trouble with this matter. i don't want to feel fake or complacent by giving in to the christian majority (no offence to the christian majority), nor do i want to get drawn into a long conversation aboot my religious beliefs, as simple as they are, to every close minded person i say goodbye to. i've found the best way to handle this situation is to simply let them say whatever they use (merry christmas, happy hanukkah, etc.) and just tack on a "you too" and smile. so all of you out there looking to avoid uncomfortable situations this time of year, feel free to use the sniper approach.


----------



## MacDoc

Sniper I hear ya.... I find Merry New Year gets a laugh and also avoids the issue. My coping mechanism.


----------



## Jordan

Hear, Hear, Sniper. It's the only way I deal with this time of the year.

Happy Winter Solstice!!


----------



## Chealion

I like my Merry Christmas... taking Christmas out of the season leaves you wondering, why on earth is their even a holiday? Theres Hanaukah but that has nothing to do with Santa or the rapid commercialization and selling in order to buy your children with gifts...

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
If you take offense, its your own fault and you can sue yourself. (Blunt, but I'm sick and tired of the debate... If we get rid of the holiday, then it'll be one more workday and no more rush to buy products...)


----------



## sniper

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chealion:
*If we get rid of the holiday, then it'll be one more workday and no more rush to buy products*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'm not saying the holiday should be removed, i'm just saying that i wish everyone would open their eyes to the rest of the world and realize that there's more out there than what they believe. it's been my experience that 99% of people give the holiday wishes that they want to receive, not that the person they are talking to wants to receive. i think it's impolite to be, for example, talking to someone you know is jewish and say "merry christmas." unless you don't know them, it's subconcious intolerance to push your religion on them. i know it's not a big deal, but you can't say they don't notice.


----------



## ehMax

I think its all way too out of hand. It would be like me not wanting my kids to go out for Halloween because I don't believe in its roots as a pagan event. My kids like to dress up in scarry costumes and get candy. 

I think Christmas is the same way. Even if you don't celebrate "Christ mass" in the true sense... at the very least its a fun holiday the celebrates family, giving and goodwill to all, with Santa and reindeer and holiday specials on TV etc... 

I feel I can comfortably say Merry Christmas to anyone and not feel I'm "Pushing a religion" down someones throat. That's ridiculous.









So let me say whole heartedly to everyone at ehMac: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!


----------



## MacDoc

"I like my Merry Christmas... taking Christmas out of the season leaves you wondering, why on earth is their even a holiday? There's Hanaukah but that has nothing to do with Santa or the rapid commercialization and selling in order to buy your children with gifts.."

Chealion you have an intuitive grasp of the issues and indeed you should ask "why on earth is there a holiday ?- it's an important point. EhMax refers to the issues obliquely with his Halloween conumdrum. ( btw reading about the rise of Santa is also an interesting tale)

I'm not going to get into the entire structure as there is plenty on the web to read.
This is one http://www.bektek.net/beck/mia/writing_christianity.htm http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch07.htm 
and then we come full circle to a new paganism trying to bust loose from Christian roots









Basically, and historically accurate,in order to spread sucessfully many of the earlier rites and festivals were "co-opted" and transformed by the Christian church..
It's interesting as the Catholic Church has seen that phenomena in Africa very recently with an attempted blending of tribal rites with Catholic practice.
Fundamentally this "season" has become a family time as well as an enormous economic engine.
With Hannuka, Winter Solstice, and other "festivals" or celebrations around the same time I think there is a an attempt to make it far more culturally inclusive and that's where someof the debate is arising.
There is also a "backlash" against the heavy commercialism of the "season" which in the US basically goes Thanksgiving to New Years.
Lots of sometimes conflicting forces at work in this.
But one message seems a universal constant and very important right now.

"Peace on earth.........


----------



## sniper

i agree that you have forced this issue out of hand, ehmax. i said it wasn't a big deal, yet you're getting over excited. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ehMax:
*I feel I can comfortably say Merry Christmas to anyone and not feel I'm "Pushing a religion" down someones throat. That's ridiculous.









So let me say whole heartedly to everyone at ehMac: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!







*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'm saying that the fact that you can comfortably say "merry christmas" to anyone is the problem. you're in the majority, and it's brain washed you into thinking that everyone feels the same way you do.

i didn't say it is pushing a religion down other's throats, just pushing it. as in pushing it to the front, or spotlighting it. i don't think this is fundamentally wrong, but to do so personally to someone who is of a different religion is rude.

i had gone through this discussion without feeling offended until you said, "So let me say whole heartedly to everyone at ehMac: Merry Christmas." while we're having a discussion aboot why i felt that was unappropriate to say, you shout it just because you disagree.
that's intolerance.

i'm sure you're preparing to over react and call my thoughts and opinions rediculous again, but before you do, let me remind you that while that may be the christian thing to do (so hard to tell these days) it's not very nice.


----------



## MacDoc

ehMax - remember how strongly you reacted to the discussion about the proposed law in the US??
Sniper feels that way about certain aspects of religion and so do I.
So while we don't doubt your sincerity you cannot KNOW who you might be making uncomfortable.
In a majority situation it's even more important to be aware of differing headspaces.
Sniper copes by never offering a seasonal greeting but returning one in kind.
I cope with a somewhat humorous twist or a bland Happy Holiday.
Especially in Toronto which is extremely mulitcultural in more than just an ethnic origins sense, sensitivity to alternate views is critical and what makes the city so terrific in that sense. Different belief structures can co-exist as long as respect and sensitivity is shown.

What sniper just asked was to realize that what seems a harmless holiday greeting for you has a different impact for him, and for me.
Just as "Geez" I'm sure is an irrating bit of slang for you.

Bottom line, you can't know so you have to be considerate. That's I think what sniper is saying and so am I.  

and a Merry New Year to you your honur


----------



## Clockwork

We used to have this debate in school. I find it very odd because most people that celebrate Christmas are not Christian. I would say a good majority are not Christian. You dont have to be Christian to cellebrate Christmas. Secondly a lot of people that are not Pegan go out for Halloween, there not Pagans but the enjoy the rituals and celebrate Halloween. Same with Easter, not everyone is Christian and so forth. Christmas is for everyone regardless of what religion you are because you still get the day off or most people do. December 25th is Christmas on the Calendar and I dont think we should change it. Regardless if your a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc enjoy the time off and spend it with your family. This politicaly correct world is for the birds


----------



## Aurora

Well, when I saw this thread, I was going to wish all ehMacians the best of the season but it seems that there are some thin skins out there. Too bad


----------



## sniper

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aurora:
*Well, when I saw this thread, I was going to wish all ehMacians the best of the season but it seems that there are some thin skins out there. Too bad*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it is too bad that you're unable to deliver secular wishes


----------



## MacNutt

A Very MERRY CHRISTMAS...and A HAPPY NEW YEAR from your resident *******!    

And I sincerely hope that ALL of you have a very happy new year....HONEST!

Political Correctness be DAMNED! Best of the season to ALL of you!!


----------



## MacDoc

and in sniper's style
Nollaig chridheil agus Bliadhna mhath yr!
to you Macnutt


----------



## Heart

HO, HO HO


----------



## Chealion

Well, sniper, you have a VERY good point, I just see that quite a few see that Christmas is so engrained within our culture, and its lost much of its religious roots (eg. Santa Claus and the commercialization) has vetoed the need for this political correctness. The nice thing about being democratic is that we can debate about anything. Personally I really dislike the political correctness pushing (Happy Holidays is ok, but "On the first day of giving" is too far). Thats my 0.02 and no offense was ever meant if any was taken.

And if my first post seemed really blunt, I blame it on the worst cold I've ever had... normally I'm not like that.


----------



## MacDoc

Chealion this season doesn't have Christian roots it has pagan roots.  ask you local Wiccan.
And no we will never forgive you for speaking your mind  That's the idea here. Blunt is okay, passionate is okay - "culd in nuz wid hedach" okay too.


----------



## sniper

you never offended me, chealion.
i wasn't pushing for political correctness as much as personal respect.
my point wasn't that you should never say "merry christmas." it's that if you know the person is not christian, it's best to say what they like to hear.
nobody here can say that everyone, regardless of religion, celebrates christmas. that's simply not true. different people have different beliefs and traditions. taking notice of these is just plain nice.


----------



## MacDoc

seconded


----------



## Britnell

Screw the Politically Correct bull****.

We live in a society that is determined to celebrate diversity and to be tolerant.

The sword cuts both ways. If you want me to be tolerant of your belief system, you had better damn well be tolerant of mine.

While it is well known that this time of year was selected by the early Church in order to co-opt established festivites and to "Christianize" them, the reality is that Christmas is a Christian celebration. Christmas is from Christ's Mass. 

If you are not Christian, say what you want. If you are Christian, and wish to celebrate the season in a Christian fashion, do so.


----------



## Chealion

Macdoc, yes the timing has roots due to the winter solstice and the Druids, but what I meant to say was that the holiday was/is (depending on person) based on the birth of Christ.

Britnell, b/c Chrisitanity is seen as the majority, theres no need for "protection" for it as a religion as its not a minority. Of course, look many places where it is a minority, its not given protection...
4 days till 2003!!!


----------



## MacDoc

"Screw the Politically Correct bull****.

We live in a society that is determined to celebrate diversity and to be tolerant.

The sword cuts both ways. If you want me to be tolerant of your belief system, you had better damn well be tolerant of mine."

Hmmm that's a pretty militant and arrogant stance for someone professing "tolerance". You are asserting "ownership" over a seasonal holiday that has a different meaning for many - some far predating Christianity. In fact, even a good portion of Christians don't choose the December date to celebrate "Christ's Mass"..
Your actual attitude to the issue seems most apparent here

"Screw the Politically Correct bull****."

and it's out of that, discomfort arises.


----------



## ehMax

My apologies Sniper. I agree, if you know someone is uncomfortable with the phrase "Merry Christmas" one should be considerate. 

It is hard for me to accept that anyone would be offended by it because its basically a well wish by someone. I don't think anyone saying it has even the slightest intent on pushing a religious belief on someone. They are simply saying "I hope you are happy during this holiday". 

Tolerance is accepting diversity and celebrating it, not pushing it off to the side and trying to sanatize it as to not offend anyone. I'm more than happy if someone would wish me a Happy Hanukah or whatever... I would wish the same back to them. We are talking about friendly, well wishing phrases.

And Macdoc, that's a little different than saying Geez...(Which I'm not offended by in the least) I think you're referring to my post earlier about editing blasphemy. Blasphemy is totally different than saying a well wishing phrase like Merry Christmas. And debating about the phrase Merry Christmas certainly isn't the same as debating abortion. 

But anyway... I hope everyone had a Happy Holiday, and a Merry Christmas, and a Happy Hanukah, and got presents from Santa or has chestnuts roasting by the open fire.


----------



## MacDoc

Mayor of all the world







Good attitude "Geez" doesn't bother you but I'm sure you know those it might - and you maybe not seriously -but you KNOW that's a slang corruption of an expletive that would annoy you or the worse one of the J. F..... C. variety.
My point is that there is a spectrum of sensitivity that can often be missed in "casual" "assumptions. I LIKE Sniper's approach and I also appreciate his view point and his thinking that others are simply unaware.
It's rarely the intent that's a problem. It's just the assumption. I got quizzed by a grocery clerk about trees and presents and








I just smiled and said nothing. I wasn't going to get into why we have weaned our kids ( pretty much) off the big time focus on gifting in this season in order to shfit the feeling and sentiment involved to a year round headspace that is heightened by it's spontanaeity and surprise.

Anyway Happy New Year unless you are Chinese, or Jewish, or Islamic or .......


----------



## Britnell

I'm sorry that you misunderstood me, MacDoc. I am not exerting ownership over "the season", I am standing up for my right to be a practising Christian, to greet people in a manner that I see fit. If you really must know, the term "good-bye" is from the phrase "God be with ye, or God be with you", an very Christian parting.

I have no problem with someone wishing to celebrate the solstice or any other pagen festivity. 

I do, however, find it offense that I am being tacitly asked to renounce my religion and belief system in order to have an "inclusive" season. Chistmas is about the celebration of Christ's birthday, something that is ironic given His desire to tear down the established religious order of the day. 

If you want to celebrate something else, feel free. Just don't ask me to give up my religion.

Am I being militant? Not at all, I am simply not willing to give up my belief system. And I am not asking or forcing others to join my system or abandon their own.


----------



## sniper

you seem very confused, britnell

you claim to have tolerance towards other religions, and be accepting of their practices, yet you are unwilling to give any non-christian greetings to their members.

saying, for instance, "happy kwanza" isn't an abandonment of christianity, it's just being nice to someone you know is going to celebrate kwanza.

saying "have a merry christmas" to that same person, however, is not simply a polite gesture. just look at the words:  have a merry christmas. that is pushing christianity. it's saying "go celebrate christ's birth, and enjoy doing so."

to refuse to say anything non-christian, yet claiming to be tolerant is sheer hipocrisy.

you claim not saying "merry christmas" to everyone you see is like renouncing your religion and giving up your belief system. unless part of your belief system is atempting to convert all non-christians (i've met people like that), that statement isn't true.


----------



## Britnell

Actually, sniper, I think that you are the one that is confused. Or that we simply do not see the world in the same way.

I would never wish someone a Happy Kwanza, simply because I am not a North American Black, decended from slaves. But that does not mean I will tell those celebrating a holiday made up in the late 60's, to take a powder because I do not celebrate with them.

My Jewish friends and my Muslim friends celebrate their faiths in their own way. And if I am invited into their homes, I respect their culture and try to keep up with the rituals. 

Being inclusive does not mean forcing any one religion to give up or make way for another. If you want to wish me a Happy Solstice that is fine by me. But don't get your nickers in a knot if I wish you a Merry Christmas. BTW, If you are having ritual sex with the vestil virgins, give me a call, I'm sure I will be able to make room on my schedule to help you with that celebration. ;+)


----------



## sniper

i think what we don't agree on is what saying "merry christmas" or "happy kwanzaa" is saying.

do you think it means "i plan to enjoy celebrating (insert holiday)"?
i've always thought it meant "i hope you enjoy celebrating (insert holiday)."

that's the only way i can understand you being unwilling to say "happy kwanza" to a friend who you know is going to celebrate kwanza.

do you say "happy birthday" to people when it's your birthday or when it's theirs?


----------



## MacDoc

Sorry Britnell I'm totally onside with sniper here. You are welcome to practice whatever belief you like as long as it's not an "in your face" intrusion on my worldview.
What I consider rude, as does sniper is wishing someone NOT of your faith a happy Christmas, Easter , All Saints Day etc etc. It may not be welcome by the person despite your best intentions and it's insensitive not to be aware of that possibility.
If sniper wishes you a Merry Christmas that's sensitive as he KNOWS your beliefs and is sharing your happiness etc.

There are also differences in proselytising religions, of which Christianity is one, in which there is clear call to and history of imperialism and intolerance of other beliefs. In other words a call to convert others.
Many beliefs are not proselytizing - Judiasm for instance - believers just want to be left alone to practice as they see fit without interference - there is no call to convert others. If someone WANTS to join then they are welcome to as long as they are willing to follow and respect the rules of Judaic living and worship.
So there is an inherent caution when dealing with a proselytising belief structure. Combine a historical aggressiveness and a lack of sensitivity = discomfort with a religious greeting.
You may not intend militancy - but it's clearly there in both posts.
This of course is compounded by your approach to not sharing others "special days" when you are aware of them. Why wouldn't you wish somone you knew who celebrated a Kwanza festival "Happy Kwanza. Akin to not bowing in greeting in Japan. Impolite, insensitive.

"Merry Christmas" is NOT a neutral greeting like Happy Holidays or Happy New Year.

Salaam or As-sallamu aleykum! is neutral
La ilaha illallah is not.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM

david (macdoc),

the natural extension of your argument is that it would be rude to offer any sort of well wishes for this season at all

the chinese don't celebrate new year at this time for example, so "happy new year" would be pushing your Julian calendar belief system on them.

I could go on and show other examples, but suffice it to say that in a culturally diverse country such as Canada or the U.S., we may be forced to the lowest common denominator - "Have a nice day."

Although, those that practice "vamperism" may be upset at even that one.

End of rant.


----------



## sniper

these aren't universal policies we're proposing, they're just personal niceties.

it's not that you could never say "happy new year" just because chinese people exist, it's that you shouldn't say that to a chinese person.


----------



## ehMax

Along the lines of my previous post... Larry King interviewed Bono from U2 awhile back and he said some things I thought were interesting regarding religion. Here's and excerpt..

-----

KING: We're back with Bono. 

You mentioned being Christian, and...

BONO: Trying to be.

KING: ... trying to be. Are you -- do you like organized religion? Are you a Catholic? Do you go to mass?

BONO: Who in Ireland could have too much respect for organized religion? We've seen it tear our country in two. My mother was a Protestant. My father was a Catholic. And I learned that religion is often the enemy of God, actually. 

And religion is this sort of -- religion is the artifice, you know, the building, after God has left it sometimes, like Elvis has left the building. You hold onto religion, you know, rules, regulations, traditions. I think what God is interested in is people's hearts, and that's hard enough.

KING: So, especially in Ireland, you've seen it fail. 

BONO: Yes, yes. And now, we're watching it around the world. We're watching what religion can do. And you know, I think it's anathema, and see -- religion takes ideas. Religion often reduces the size of God. God is so big. It's a gigantic concept in God. The idea that God might love us and be interested in us is kind of huge and gigantic, but we turn it, because we're small-minded, into this tiny, petty, often greedy version of God, that is religion.

KING: And so, we raise money in his name and go to war in his name.

BONO: Yes. 

-------

Just an interesting view that kind of echo my sentiments on religion... that I started talking about about because of the Merry Christmas discussion, that started because of Heart's humourous legal document.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM

re: bono and religion

perhaps we need to seperate catholicism / protestants / lutherans / born again, etc from christianity in its purest form.

what that is exactly is for each to decide. i am certainly not a prophet.

bono's argument is like saying that my ford taurus was a bad car so all cars are bad.

i think that people too quickly condemn christianity due to the actions of one sect claiming to preach their version of christianity.

i am not a cleric, nor an expert in these matters but i do think if one can seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, we can start to have a better discussion

end


----------



## MacDoc

Michael - not at all - there are differences between secular greetings and religious greetings. Wishing another person happiness or peace or well being is universal and can be holiday related or not. Offering religious greetings within one's own belief community is not only reasonable but expected as part of the structure of the community.
Offering them outside the known community can be insensitive..that's our point.
I think the mayor has identified one aspect of the issue - some do not regard Merry Christmas as religious but more a general greeting like hello.
I contend it is not "generic" and I think the level of debate not just here but in the larger population indicates that.

In fact I think many Christians are afraid Merry Christmas has become or is becoming secular to the point of being meaningless in a religious sense.

Ehmax - too big a discussion but I dislike ALL proselytising belief systems so don't feel picked on. I don't have a high regard for Freudian analysis either desite it's trappings of respectability and "science".

I admire communities like the Amish in particular who live a life according to their beliefs and just want others to let them do so in peace. They care for the earth and their families in a self sustaining and long term manner. 

Contrast that with Bush's mouthing religious principles while his family rapes the oceans. Zealots like Bin Laden are calling this a religious conflict - under the rhetoric there is an element of truth in there.

Historically there are very strong and clear reasons for the separation of church and state in the most part to take away power from the "my way or the highway" zealots who would misuse political power for religious purposes.
"Merry Christmas" is a pivot point for the conflicting forces still at work in our society and around the world.

You've outlined, in particular the Irish situation, why "Christian" greetings don't sit well with some people.
Once again the point being if you don't know the person you can't know whether your greeting, no matter how well intentioned, is going to be received.

If you want a different example I think many pregnant women can tell you tales of strangers coming up patting their bellies, making inane or unwelcome comments because of "assumptions".
Some love the attention, others feel invaded, others are uncomfortable with their body changes, still others could be carrying a baby they are highly conflicted about....again the point is "you can't know" so as sensitive a caring human you let the other person give you cues.
Sniper's got a good approach...


----------



## ehMax

All good points Macdoc.  

Isn't being a Mac user being a part of thee most proselytising beliefs?  As a PC user, you're signature at the bottom of your message is a little offensive.


----------



## MacDoc

Yes you are correct and it's my income base to "convert" others to Mac but you do realize it's a pun on the original "Computers for the rest of us" which was Apple's first catch phrase for the Mac.
Also in keeping with "Mac to the Future" a similar twist on Back to the Future.

I mean we all use phrases like your "Darkside" in a pseudo-conflict style especially because we are the minority - gives our "tribe" some solidarity - gives us confirmation of our own choices.
My guess is you get irrated with the "oh you use a Mac, there's no software for those is there" snide comments all the time.

Unthinking, uninformed.....probably well intentioned tho'


----------



## sniper

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ehMax:
*Isn't being a Mac user being a part of thee most proselytising beliefs?  As a PC user, you're signature at the bottom of your message is a little offensive.







*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, everyone has to get a new computer anyway, and telling them that macs are better is just trying to help them shop wisely. people don't abandon their faith every few years and go out shopping for a new one.

and macdoc's signature isn't insensitive because this is a mac community. he knows that the only people who will read it are interested in macs. you can say "merry christmas" in church all you like.

you say that christmas has become a secular holiday with santa and rudolph, etc. i think you're partially right, in that many non-christians celebrate christmas. but i also think that's a major problem. too many people in this world are unaware of their religious beliefs. because of the constant pushing of the christian majority, many people have just gotten used to closed minded christians assuming everyone is christian and christianity is best.

several times i've asked a friend "what's your religion?" they all say some denomination of christianity. i then ask something like "do you believe in god?" and they think for a second and say no.

you don't like it when the windoze majority pushes you around. i don't like it when the christian majority pushes me around.


----------



## ehMax

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and macdoc's signature isn't insensitive because this is a mac community. he knows that the only people who will read it are interested in macs. you can say "merry christmas" in church all you like. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

T'was a joke.


----------



## Peter Scharman

ALL have brought forth very good points that need to be considered in our everyday "small world". May God be with you all! Oops, uuhhh.... have a nice day! (Was that generic enough, and yet full of sincerity??) And , with no offense intended, Happy New Year to you !


----------



## ehMax

I respectfully still think its a bit of a thin argument to get upset over phrases like Merry Christmas or Happy Easter (Who says Happy Easter anyway?) Both of these events with Christian roots have already been thoroughly secularized for those with religious sensitivities. I'm talking about Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, Frosty the Snowman etc... To think you know the beliefs of everyone that says Merry Christmas to you is presumptutious in my opinion. 

How far do you take it? When someone sneezes, often people say "bless you". That comes from a time when it was believed you were vunerable to evil spirits while you sneezed. Does anyone really say bless you thinking they are casting away evil demons?

Its my opinion that it is political correctness taken to far. I've been really self consious of it the last couple of days and noticed almost everyone says Merry Christmas to me first. While I think it would be kind of nice if all these people were Christians, I really don't think that's the case. It is a very, very common phrase. (Or maybe I just look like Ned Flanders and everyone assumes)









Macdoc you have a bone to pick with Christianity and are quick to point out negatives. That's fine, and quite understandable. There is a huge history of religion being a negative force in the world and denominations (or abominations as I like to call them) causing tremendous amounts of pain and suffering in the world. But these are actions of people over history not what the beliefs of Christianity are. That's like me condeming any scientific work because scientific research has produced guns, nuclear weapons, cars that polute the world, cancerous chemicals sprayed on our food, big machines to tear down our forests, machines that complicate our lives etc... 

Obviously this would be very silly as scientific research itself is not evil, its a process of discovery the truth. (Which ultimately, I would LOVE to know) Its human error, greed, lack of caring of the environment in our decisions and what have you, that have caused these negatives. 

Its the same with negatives in Christianity. There's nothing inherantly wrong with the belief. And whether one believes in Christ as the son of God or not, there was a real historical figure named Jesus who taught things and lived a certian way. And he was quite a cool person actually... as pointed out, quite against established religious leaders and rules and those high on themself and who thought they knew it all. He liked to celebrate, was a great poet and folk writer and always spoke of loving and forgiveness. 

There are so many positive things to Christianity. The bulk of all donations to charities are done by church goers. (Of course, lots of atheist donate too) So many people find so much joy in Christianity. There is so much volunteer work and help that is offered to the community. Many people feel joy and want to share it. And yes, in doing so some are rude and over-bearing. How many Mac users love their Macs so much they want to tell everyone to use a Mac. How many PC users are annoyed by us! Like I said before, a zealot of any belief or opinion is not a good thing. 

Anyway, my ramble is not to try to push any belief on anyone, but I just wanted to paint Christianity in a little more positive light. 

Its easy for any given person to get offended or feel threatend. Everyone, including Christians have to have opposing views and beliefs put "in their face". 

It is very nice to be polite and not step on peoples toes. I'm guilty of this occasionally but you have to forgive me, I do have size 14 feet.


----------



## Chealion

And the hours to 2003 count down ever so slowly...
I think Happy New Year is pretty neutral considering it was a holiday created in the 1700s when the Gregorian Calender was accepted.

Happy New Year to you all, best of fun in the New Year, who knows what crazy things shall happen?


----------



## MACSPECTRUM

thank you for your well wishes.

realise that there is the Julian calendar, still in use by many around the world, add that to the Chinese calendar, the Hebrew calendar and others i may not be able to think of and one begins to get an idea of the cultural diversity around this little blue marble of life, we call Earth.

"Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards all men !"

(uh oh, now i have pissed off the 'war-mongers')


----------



## MacDoc

MIchael indeed if I had a goal in pursuing this post was to get people thinking outside their cultural norm, be sensitive to differences. Calendars are mutable too. I've often wondered if we switched to a 10 day week 10 hours work day with 4 day weekends how different things might be.
A lot of studies during WWII indicated a 10-12 hour workday with a significant break after 5-6 days was the most efficient - best work - least accidents and I think a number of emergency services have similar schedules.

Change comes from rethinking the norm. Jobs and Wozniak did.

Yur Honur...yes we know it was a joke









Sniper - keep on truckin' - it's often taken all too casual and do like your headspace and willingness to tell it as you see it. Take no prisoners.
That said, I find it interesting to cruise the letters and opinions about this topic on the web. There is a LOT of diversity of opinion and it's gets pretty strong on both sides of the fence - as it has here.
Some of it unfortunately is not very tolerant  
This issue ain't going to go away soon  

Happy New Year..... in this cutlural milieu


----------



## ehMax

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Some of it unfortunately is not very tolerant <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes to me, this is a funny word. I understand what you are saying, and this is a little off topic... but not every belief or opinion has to be tolerated just because someone else believes in it... even if the belief doesn't directly effect me. 

A lot of people (very wrongfully) tolerated slavery and racism. Some people thought that was just the way it was... others even twisted bible scripture to justify it. These people could of said to others who disagreed to mind their own business... if you don't like it, don't have slaves etc... its our country and its our choice to have slaves or not. We feed them and clothe them and give them a place to sleep etc.... 

It may not be a perfect analogy but somewhere in there is my point.. I don't have to be tolerant of everyone's beliefs and opionions especially when, in my opinion, their belief or decisions are being done for selfish reasons that hurt others.


----------



## sniper

slavery is an action. actions don't have to be tolerated. our criminal legal system is basically a list of all the actions that aren't tolerated.

you can believe in something that others find wrong, but as long as you don't act on your beliefs, there's no real problem.

take the KKK. a very racist group with beliefs that i think most of us here would disagree with, but as long as they don't start lynching people, they're pretty much left alone.

beliefs should be tolerated.
actions shouldn't.


----------



## Cynical Critic

I'm a little slow in replying but I've been busy with my family during the holidays. 

I liked the cartoon you posted ehMax! Thanks for the smile.  

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone!!!


----------



## ehMax

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> beliefs should be tolerated.
actions shouldn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about words? What if the KKK member started subtley conveying their "beliefs" on ehMac? What about on a street corner? What about at a school parking lot? 

They are not lynching anyone. Should I tolerate it?

I almoust sound like I'm almost coming full circle here as I'm thinking and agreeing on Macdocs point of proselytising beliefs.









Just to be clear, I'm FULLY in support of being tolerant. I read a phrase once that was something like: "I may not agree with what you believe in, but I'll fight with all I have for your right to believe it." Something like that... I kind of like it. 

Before it was mentioned about the Christian majority... I don't know where this Christian majority is, but I'd like to meet them.  Through my life in college and in the work force I certainly have always felt in the minority in my beliefs. Although, very rarely do I talk about my beliefs to other people... on ehMac is a rare exception as its somewhat interesting discussing them. 

But I've always felt in the minority and always cherished my freedom of belief in Canada and if I love those freedoms I've got to be willing to allow those freedoms to other people who believe in something different. 

I'm starting to ramble a bit but a couple of points I was thinking of regarding proselytising beliefs.... If someone does strongly believe in something isn't it a natural tendancy to want to promote it? 

And on another point regarding the difference between a belief and an action... don't mean to stir this debate again but... isn't abortion an action? 

I could tolerate someone believing a baby inside the womb in not a living person and is just a fetus, but its different because people are taking action and destroying what I believe is a child. 

The arguement is made that its a womans body and not my decision... But the same types of arguments could be and were used about slavery. Its not my country, its not my problem. At one time it was legal. People used the N word to describe a human as something less than a human. Its not quite the same thing but there are similarities I think. 

Anyway, sorry to bring up the abortion thing, but mentioned it as it relates to my discussion about tolerance. I can tolerate beliefs, but as an example, I will never tolerate abortion. I'm not saying I'll be remotely militant about it but it is something I will speak against.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by macdoc:
*MIchael indeed if I had a goal in pursuing this post was to get people thinking outside their cultural norm, be sensitive to differences. Calendars are mutable too. I've often wondered if we switched to a 10 day week 10 hours work day with 4 day weekends how different things might be.
A lot of studies during WWII indicated a 10-12 hour workday with a significant break after 5-6 days was the most efficient - best work - least accidents and I think a number of emergency services have similar schedules.

Change comes from rethinking the norm. Jobs and Wozniak did.

Yur Honur...yes we know it was a joke









Sniper - keep on truckin' - it's often taken all too casual and do like your headspace and willingness to tell it as you see it. Take no prisoners.
That said, I find it interesting to cruise the letters and opinions about this topic on the web. There is a LOT of diversity of opinion and it's gets pretty strong on both sides of the fence - as it has here.
Some of it unfortunately is not very tolerant  
This issue ain't going to go away soon  

Happy New Year..... in this cutlural milieu*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's not give Jobs too much credit for we all know the story of his "ephiphany."

As for Woz, I do agree.

As for the calendar 'issue', I was merely making a point that there are still many different views of the world. All not evil. 

Secularism is not the panacea that many believe it to be, not that the old entrenched religions are either.

What I am speaking to is a 'fundamental change of philosophy' as per the human (rat) race.

One day, we'll have the internet clock, one language and one corporate structure to run the world and the 5th edition of the NewSpeak dictionary will be the only book on the NY Times best seller list.

With any luck I will be "double-plus" dead by then.


----------



## sniper

well i'm pleased to say, ehmax, that this debate finally has me thinking in new ways. thank you for that. to address your points:

words are a bit of a combination of actions and beliefs, so this is a grey area. 
for them to be posted on ehmac, well that's pretty easy; ehmac is a private group and it's your call if that's allowed.
as for on a street corner, i'd say that it's okay as long as they're not being abusive or militant. people pass out flyers on the street, and talk aboot what they feel. i don't have a problem with that. to quote mitch hedberg, "when someone hands me a flyer on the street, it's like they're saying 'here, throw this out for me.'" it doesn't do any harm.

as for the christian majority, trust me, they're out there.







you probably didn't see it in college because that's a time for discovering one's self, and to do that one must question everything, including religious beliefs. that kind of self exploration is one of the things i'm most looking forward to next year.
you probably don't see it in the work force because that's not the best time to talk aboot religion. you said you don't talk aboot it much with people, so how can you know their beliefs? maybe they're all around you.

abortion is a tricky subject, but you know that. i think you've made a good analogy between your views on abortion, and the current views on slavery. now you need to ask yourself how much do you care? what are you willing to do to stop the actions that you feel are wrong? there's nothing wrong with you stepping in to try to stop what you feel is an injustice. just know that there's a price to pay in fighting. is it worth taking attention away from your family to protect unborn fetuses that you don't know?

you say you won't tolerate it, but you won't be militant against it. sometimes being militant is the only way to right a wrong. is that kind of machiavelian thinking outdated?

of course there's the question of whether there's a wrong to be righted, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.


----------



## Chealion

Just a point of clarification about this "Christian majority" which I brought up. Its a mjaority because a majority of people SAY they are Christian, but are not practicing Christians (You could say are three generalized groups: The say-we-are-but-never-really-serious-about-religion-and-just-answered-that-because-my-parents-were or something along those lines, the Christmas and Easter ones who see religion has a place but not something that is part of their lives and then we have the practicing Christians who can range from the Bible-thumpers (*shudder*, good intentions, scary way of doing it) all the way to the normal people who are and most likely like ehMax just want to show a little light into the darkness of the world to paraphrase a verse from the New Testament.

Statistically and culturally theres a majority if you are not Christian, and if you are a Christian its a minority because much of the culture and therefore the inbetween majority comes from the old-fashioned upbringing who hold some of the old values but are tolerant and therefore aren't truly Christian other then in name. 

Also to address what sniper said: "you say you won't tolerate it, but you won't be militant against it. sometimes being militant is the only way to right a wrong. is that kind of machiavelian thinking outdated?"
Sometimes militant action is the only way, the problem is that it tends to not work for a while, such as when looking at the United States when it had its little revolution, it took a good hundred years and a civil war before the country was truly settled back down to peace (on a grand scheme), so militant action may be needed (according to the patriots) but its hard to determine whether it will work out in the long run or not because peace is at the end of a long road, and easy to lose. So sniper, not outdated, just very controversial. You could also look at France since the Revolution... Took them forever to settle down under their republic government and have it stay in power...


----------

