# Toronto blueprint?? fewer cars, better city



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

What others are doing. I really like that Curitiba system. :clap:

I am buying a Honda Silverwing today I hope if all goes well and plan on much more extensive use for casual run errands as it has good storage.
I was talking to one of the dealers and they said new models are sold out until next year :shock: 
Saw a older husband and wife running about on a pair of scooters as well.
Now this might be common for Europe but for suburban Ontario....it's a big change.

Here are some brilliant solutions I wish Toronto would take note of



> *Super travel systems*
> By ELIZABETH TAI
> 
> The hike in the price of oil has successfully done what environmentalists have been trying to do for decades: forced the public as well as the Government to seriously consider public transportation options.
> ...


Super travel systems


----------



## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

I voted yes to the tax, but there should be a qualifier that the money be used to ramp up public transit in some way. London has such a tax; NYC recently voted down the tax. Let's face it: the move towards energy independence/efficiency will be more painful for some than for others. Somebody I know of in Portland is wedded to cars, yet can't afford one, and had a vehicle repo'd. He would never dream of taking that nifty train.


----------



## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> I voted yes to the tax, but there should be a qualifier that the money be used to ramp up public transit in some way.


I'll agree to the qualifier. I'd only ever support taxes that effectively target those creating the problem, have a finite period outlined for their execution, and that are dedicated to a specific plan. Needless to say not many taxes are like this so there are few I can heartily support.


----------



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Growing up in NYC, when the population was just over 8 million, I only knew one friend who owned his own car. I used the subway system extensively, buses at times, and cabs about once a year. Still, I was surprised to hear that the tax plan was voted down in NYC.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Toronto has been so responsible with its money so far, why not trust it again?


----------



## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> Growing up in NYC, when the population was just over 8 million, I only knew one friend who owned his own car. I used the subway system extensively, buses at times, and cabs about once a year. Still, I was surprised to hear that the tax plan was voted down in NYC.


Hence the paradoxical phrase, "Nobody drives in New York, there's too much traffic."

It is surprising that that was voted down in NY but I wonder if maybe people assumed it would affect Cabs as well? Can you imagine if cab fare in NY doubled? I'm not sure what the details were of the NY tax.


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Macfury said:


> Toronto has been so responsible with its money so far, why not trust it again?


Exactly. Our city council in Toronto is so spend happy, so ready to throw money at useless endeavors, and so eager to burn money as if there was no tomorrow, there is NO doubt that this system would solve almost nothing (but I still support the idea).

The reality is that Toronto has been far to generous to car drivers.

There should be ZERO free parking in Toronto ANYTIME, ANYWHERE. I see side streets used all the time for people to leave their cars all day. Add to that the latest news that parking tickets aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and now you have a system where anybody can park for free!
TheStar.com | GTA | The Fixer: Parking tickets vanish


> Anyone who receives a $30 Toronto parking ticket can almost certainly dodge the fine by applying for a court date.
> 
> Since the start of 2006, figures provided by Toronto's court services show it accepted about 250,000 requests from drivers to contest a $30 parking ticket, but trial dates were issued for only about 4,300. In 2008, drivers have so far requested more than 37,000 trials for $30 parking tickets, but no court dates have been issued.


That settles it for me! I'm no longer going to pay for public parking, if the City of Toronto can't clean up it's act.


----------



## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

cap10subtext said:


> Hence the paradoxical phrase, "Nobody drives in New York, there's too much traffic."


A large percentage of the traffic in NYC is delivery trucks, cabs and buses.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Toronto has been so responsible with its money so far, why not trust it again?


If Toronto continues being irresponsible with its money it will become such a cesspool of crime and filth it will be difficult for you to stay and indeed, those same conditions can negatively impact the sale of your home once you've decided to bug out.

Not imposing congestion controls of any sort just might appease people who decry the wanton wasting of public funds, but on the other hand it fails to address the problem of too many cars on our streets. Let that problem worsen and various economic and services factors which make a large city viable as an industrial and economic base can also slide into disrepute and wither away. The good work and the money it brings into the city - not to mention the the people themselves, the movers and shakers with the smarts and resources to make a difference - will decamp to other cities more driven than Toronto to make themselves work. Hello, cesspool.

It doesn't have to be that way. Nor does a congestion tax automatically mean the city will continue to squander public money, simply adding the new tax to the cushy pile. We as citizens can fight that.

I don't see how doing nothing will solve the problem. Perhaps a congestion tax is not the best solution and perhaps a combination of tools can work to ease the gridlock and frustration out there. But doing zip because you think the city is already irresponsible and unaccountable? Seems terribly defeatist to me.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Such whining. Drivers will choose or not choose to drive on the streets by themselves, based on how pleasant or unpleasant they find the experience. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE! Pass the hair shirt please.

Ensuring that only the rich will be able to drive is the typical government elitist solution. Just watch this blueprint repeated in Dion's carbon tax proposal--under which only the rich will be able to afford the unmitigated used of fossil fuel.


----------



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"It is surprising that that was voted down in NY but I wonder if maybe people assumed it would affect Cabs as well? Can you imagine if cab fare in NY doubled? I'm not sure what the details were of the NY tax." Miss G. might know this fact.


----------



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"A large percentage of the traffic in NYC is delivery trucks, cabs and buses." And don't forget about grid-lock certain times of the day.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Such whining.


This would be you whining that I am noting your crusty, almost reptilian predilection for whining about doing anything with taxpayers' money, then. Duly noted.


----------



## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

It wasn't so long ago that Toronto was the envy of North American cities. With it's clean streets, low crime, and efficient public transit.

Unfortunately, it has not handle the growth of the past 15 years very well. People fail to realize a subway line takes time to build. Had someone had the vision and balls to push ahead back then, we wouldn't be in such bad shape we are today.

It takes civic leadership. Something I don't see in Miller and his band of wasteful councillers.


----------



## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> "It is surprising that that was voted down in NY but I wonder if maybe people assumed it would affect Cabs as well? Can you imagine if cab fare in NY doubled? I'm not sure what the details were of the NY tax." Miss G. might know this fact.


I have no idea, DrG, but I do know that if the cab fare were to double, I'd take a cab once every decade instead of once every five years.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> This would be you whining that I am noting your crusty, almost reptilian predilection for whining about doing anything with taxpayers' money, then. Duly noted.


Whining is only for the beggars with their hands out, counting on others to help them live their little man dreams.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

satchmo said:


> Had someone had the vision and balls to push ahead back then, we wouldn't be in such bad shape we are today. It takes civic leadership. Something I don't see in Miller and his band of wasteful councillers.


Voila! I give you the Sheppard Line!


----------



## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Use those Gardiner pillars for an El. beejacon 

And run them all the way to Pickering in the East.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Give Miller more money to run around the world on his junkets?

NO WAY!!!!!


----------



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Miss G., what is the fare on the NYC subway these days? When I started to be allowed to ride on my own, it was 15 cents. Do they still use the tokens with a hole in the middle?


----------



## i stole this name (May 9, 2005)

No cutting back on driving until all TTC employees are fired and/or truncated and replaced by respectful, good-natured human beings, please.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Whining is only for the beggars with their hands out, counting on others to help them live their little man dreams.


Eloquent, I'll give you that. You could set it to music and it could be folksy ditty Bob Roberts might perform during his next run at the presidency. But you are indeed whining... for your own special handout, natch -a naked plea be pitied as the poor little ineffectual man being stripped of money through endless taxes. It rudely clashes with the other sides of yourself you are wont to present to us.

Whining - an equal-opportunity trait, open to all the lesser men of the world.

I stole:

The TTC people won't ever become as nice as you want them to be. I think that's like asking the parking police to never be malevolent idiots (oh, I but I do wish for that, far too often!), or for cops never to pull you over when they're in a bad mood. A nice idea, perhaps, but good luck with it ever happening. Maybe we can tap our shoes together and wish for the best!

Thing is, if you're using TTC personnel comportment as the chief reason for never using the TTC, that's your business but it sounds like a lame excuse to me. Crappy service times, overcrowded vehicles - that I can understand. In my experience, you're more likely to have run-ins with disgruntled passengers than you are with streetcar and bus drivers. Commuters can be an ugly lot.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

And schay, what do mean by "truncating?" Decapitation, perhaps? Well, that'll learn'em, big time! A bit like the Monty Python decree "to be hanged by the neck until you cheer up." Well, nothing else is working... might as well give it a shot, wot?


----------



## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Sorry, but I do not agree with adding a tax to drive within Toronto. That is absolutely the worst way to produce fewer cars in Toronto. Have you looked at the gas prices lately? People are still paying to drive, no matter what the cost. So, who cares about a tax, unless it is going to cost me $1000 per trip to enter Toronto the tax is going to be pointless to most people. A cash grab for the city for sure, but nothing that will change the problem.

Vancouver has been busy building more tracks around the Lower Mainland to improve its Sky Train service. When I left the city over 4 years ago, they had just finished and were still building newer lines. What has Toronto done in the mean time to get more people using public transit? Nothing! 

The problem isn't that Toronto isn't capable of handling visitors, they just don't have a proper Public Transportation System in place for the 21st Century. Somebody obviously was sleeping all these years at City Hall.

Once again, look at where the people are coming from? Toronto is like a Hub just like our Toronto Airport is a hub for air traffic. If the airport didn't have Terminals or an Air Traffic Control tower along with gates to park the aircraft, you wouldn't be able to fly in without major traffic jams all over the place. The city of Toronto is the same thing. You have all these arteries going into the city, but no infrastructure to handle the major traffic. That's the number one problem right there. I would guess that more then 75% of the people commuting around Toronto each day don't actually live in the main core of the city. Hence, lets look to the outside and see where we can fix this problem. Traffic coming North from Toronto, should be put on rapid transit system. This should have been built years ago and should be in motion right now. Sadly it is not. Rapid transit systems should have existed years ago for ALL traffic coming from the West such as Kitchener-Waterloo, Cambridge, Guelph and perhaps London. Hamilton and area should have had rapid transit systems in place to accommodate the nightmare on the 403 in to Toronto.

To this very day the Province of Ontario and Toronto do not have a viable solution except perhaps for this ridiculous taxation crap, which by the way will not change the way of drivers on the road. If I need to get to Toronto, then I will drive as the train takes too long and costs more. The bus takes too long and not convenient. Plus if people are willing to pay to travel on the 407, you can bet they will pay whatever tax is given to driving into Toronto. Have you been on the 407 lately? busy as usual. Has it solved much? Not really at peak times. Traffic is still at its highest through put at whatever the cost. 

The city of Toronto needs to work with the Province of Ontario to come up with a more viable solution to the problem of too many cars in the city of Toronto. Adding a tax is not the solution and believe me, most people will pay, which means the problem still exists of being too many cars on the road!


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> But you are indeed whining... for your own special handout, natch


I hand out constantly and ask for nothing. 

You have admitted previously to being perhaps a mackerel in sauce, rather than a mere sardine person. Methinks I hear in your not-so-authoritative post, the language of the grunion.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

No argument that Toronto has done pretty much nothing to prepare for the future. Which is precisely why I think anti-congestion measures of some sort are inevitable. Toronto has been wrestling with the province over who has jurisdiction over what... their adversarial roles have not exactly helped speed up any solutions the city could apply to its ever-worsening traffic woes. 

To a degree I think we are getting caught up in nomenclature... whether we call it a tax or a series of laws or fees, it amounts to the same thing - more "user pay" is coming our way. If it's not a blanket tax then it might be a transponder toll placed on 400 series highways feeding into/through the GTA.

The thing about more 400 series roads is this: if you build it, they will come. People will flood onto them... it's been proven, time and time again. That just puts more cars on the roads... which might be fine if we weren't also becoming more concerned about air quality. Maybe once we get past the combustion engine stage we can have several more personal vehicles on the same roads we have now, albeit with more automation... less active driving, more computerized control of the vehicle, with fail-safe distancing between vehicles, higher overall traffic speeds, etc. Maybe.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

No argument that Toronto has done pretty much nothing to prepare for the future. Which is precisely why I think anti-congestion measures of some sort are inevitable. Toronto has been wrestling with the province over who has jurisdiction over what... their adversarial roles have not exactly helped speed up any solutions the city could apply to its ever-worsening traffic woes.

To a degree I think we are getting caught up in nomenclature... whether we call it a tax or a series of laws or fees, it amounts to the same thing - more "user pay" is coming our way. If it's not a blanket tax then it might be a transponder toll placed on 400 series highways feeding into/through the GTA.

The thing about more 400 series roads is this: if you build it, they will come. People will flood onto them... it's been proven, time and time again. That just puts more cars on the roads... which might be fine if we weren't also becoming more concerned about air quality. Maybe once we get past the combustion engine stage we can perhaps have several millions more personal vehicles on the same roads we have now, albeit with more automation... less active driving, more computerized control of the vehicle, with fail-safe distancing between vehicles, higher overall traffic speeds, etc. Maybe. Depends on how much personal control individual drivers are willing to give up... are drivers willing to shade over more into "passenger" status? Not many yet... most of us still favour the autonomy of personal automotive transport, no matter how much it costs us. Evidently we will follow this philosophy quite doggedly, for quite some time to come yet.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Bring back the delete post option! Uh...cross post.


----------



## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Max said:


> Maybe once we get past the combustion engine stage we can perhaps have several millions more personal vehicles on the same roads we have now, albeit with more automation... less active driving, more computerized control of the vehicle, with fail-safe distancing between vehicles, higher overall traffic speeds, etc. Maybe. Depends on how much personal control individual drivers are willing to give up... are drivers willing to shade over more into "passenger" status? Not many yet... most of us still favour the autonomy of personal automotive transport, no matter how much it costs us. Evidently we will follow this philosophy quite doggedly, for quite some time to come yet.


yeah I'm one of them if driving gets to that stage I think I minus well take transit it will be cheaper in the long run.

Laterz


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Depends on how much personal control individual drivers are willing to give up... are drivers willing to shade over more into "passenger" status? Not many yet... most of us still favour the autonomy of personal automotive transport, no matter how much it costs us. Evidently we will follow this philosophy quite doggedly, for quite some time to come yet.


I hope they never give up that mentality. Many people seem to have no problem rushing headlong into "client" status. Perhaps a thousand years from now, after cars are eliminated the sardine people will express their tiny anger by waving a fin at the way transit systems are ripping them off, or they can get really angry when the city imposes a curfew on its transit monopoly. I have no interest in being surrounded by one of those fey cultures that Captain Kirk had to visit from time to time, so he could kick their asses.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> I hand out constantly and ask for nothing.
> 
> You have admitted previously to being perhaps a mackerel in sauce, rather than a mere sardine person. Methinks I hear in your not-so-authoritative post, the language of the grunion.


Au contraire, your too-cozy contrarion. You ask for everything and hand out little but dusty platitudes and thin smiles. A dispensary of dischordant dolittledom.

You are the watchword of the craven nation, rather than a smitten wolf in pedant's clothing. Methinks I smell your snarly carnivorous quivers, all the rage in your filigreed garb.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> I hope they never give up that mentality. Many people seem to have no problem rushing headlong into "client" status. Perhaps a thousand years from now, after cars are eliminated the sardine people will express their tiny anger by waving a fin at the way transit systems are ripping them off, or they can get really angry when the city imposes a curfew on its transit monopoly. I have no interest in being surrounded by one of those fey cultures that Captain Kirk had to visit from time to time, so he could kick their asses.


Again I note your propensity to project onto the populace the same phobia you yourself possess in sad vibrancy. This too shall pass.

As for your aversion to clients, I'd have that looked at... it's an early symptom of something far worse. You also might look at diluting your deletion delusions.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Au contraire, your too-cozy contrarion. You ask for everything and hand out little but dusty platitudes and thin smiles. A dispensary of dischordant dolittledom.


So sorry to burst your fishy bubble. I hand out cash for all of the crazy schemes that the city can think of. I ask for nothing in return, yet all I hear is the cries of: "It was not enough! Dear heaven man, what you gave us was simply not enough!"



> As for your aversion to clients, I'd have that looked at... it's an early symptom of something far worse. You also might look at diluting your deletion delusions.


Did I hear a teeny-tiny client voice somewhere? Perhaps the Eloi have stopped by for lunch. Then again, might have been the wind.


----------



## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

"The wind" would be one word for it.









He must be a Ryerson English major.

beejacon


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Again with the denials! Talk about your Eloi... clearly they are on your mind, though you cannot bring yourself to admit the truth simmering beneath this sticky pensive predicament.

Forsooth, you ask for all, my chary freindlet.... you simply cannot bring yourself to admit this duality that croaks steadily away, far beneath your leathery hide, lodged next to that withered grey husk of a heart. This is a self-perpetuating condition you daily nourish... it is up to you to impose a strict diet on it... weaken it and strangle it into submission! You can, you can!


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

IJohn: G'day. Nay, not Ryerson. How steeped in wrongness you are, o livid, pear-shaped rat! You miscalculating vermin, you - linking to lame farticons; use words, man! Words!


----------



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

guytoronto said:


> Exactly. Our city council in Toronto is so spend happy, so ready to throw money at useless endeavors, and so eager to burn money as if there was no tomorrow, there is NO doubt that this system would solve almost nothing (but I still support the idea).


And to think, they are far more responsible with the money than the goofy council here in The Hammer, where they spent in excess of a half billion dollars to build 6 miles of road. They are back on the LRT thing again, and I am sure they will spend millions on special luncheons, and more millions on special consultants reports written by their political cronies - and it will once again be tossed out because no one wants an "EL" running through their neighbourhood, like in Brooklyn or Chicago. At least in Toronto, some money was spent on getting some business into town - whereas here, money was spent to drive it out of town.



> The reality is that Toronto has been far to generous to car drivers.


Generous in the way of... All you can handle gridlock, and monster sized potholes?!



> That settles it for me! I'm no longer going to pay for public parking, if the City of Toronto can't clean up it's act.


I have a friend who is frequently in Toronto, and he contests all of his tickets, and has been doing so for probably twenty years. As he is a musician and works nights, he really doesn't mind going to court as he can nap during the proceedings. If he is there, but the officer who issues the ticket isn't, it's thrown out anyways.

The problem in The Hammer isn't so much with parking meters, it is the fact that the hospitals and the university have inadequate parking, so people are forced to park on the streets, which clogs the streets for regular residents. Of course the university says that they want people to use public transit or walk to and from work/school, but with the prices for property within range, it is only something a full blown professor can afford.

This is unlike other places that just tow the car away, and if you want it back, you have to pay...


----------



## Rampant AV (Aug 2, 2005)

satchmo said:


> It wasn't so long ago that Toronto was the envy of North American cities. With it's clean streets, low crime, and efficient public transit.
> 
> Unfortunately, it has not handle the growth of the past 15 years very well. People fail to realize a subway line takes time to build. Had someone had the vision and balls to push ahead back then, we wouldn't be in such bad shape we are today.
> 
> It takes civic leadership. Something I don't see in Miller and his band of wasteful councillers.


I agree. Common sense and foresight are not so common anymore.


----------



## The Shadow (Oct 28, 2006)

*Bring on the tolls.*



Max said:


> To a degree I think we are getting caught up in nomenclature... whether we call it a tax or a series of laws or fees, it amounts to the same thing - more "user pay" is coming our way. If it's not a blanket tax then it might be a transponder toll placed on 400 series highways feeding into/through the GTA.


Max, I don't know if you approve of tolls, but I'm glad you brought it up because I would not mind seeing toll gates at all major entry points into Toronto. It will bring in revenue for road maintenance and get the cheap asses off the roads. 

I live just right off Kingston Road, 1 KM east of Morningside, and I'm tired of seeing the mass of smokey cars and traffic lumbering in from Durham region every morning. 

The people in the eastern GTA want to work in the city and use the roads, but they don't get stuck with the property tax bills that keep firing off into the high heavens cause of all increasing costs, of which road maintenance is a huge part. 

They get to live in the fresh air of Durham with white picket fences happily skipping along like Mary Poppins, but from Monday to Friday they ain't got no problems pumping the exhaust into our air.

Outsiders working in Metro Toronto ought to help us still living here foot the bill for road repair. I believe this wholeheartedly and advocate for road tolls. NYC's done it (the city and the NYC state thruway), the last time I was in Cleveland they started gating and tolling roads. London's doing the congestion tax thing. Something needs to be done.

What's gonna happen this summer in the downtown core once 36 and 37 degrees C comes and people start having respiratory problems. I never thought in my lifetime I would see downtown Toronto looking like Mexico City with clouds of sewage and moisture and general stank circulating in the air.

Man, I'm glad I gave up the corporate life. I would not wanna have to spend the summer working down there. I would feel like even more of an ass if I was stupid enough to buy one of those $550,000 townhouses right across the street from Ashbridge's Bay and the Sewage Treatment Plant. Kinda tough to enjoy that summer walk or BBQ on the terrace with the smell of shyte mixing it up with your chicken. 

Mmmmmmmm!


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

The Shadow said:


> Man, I'm glad I gave up the corporate life. I would not wanna have to spend the summer working down there. I would feel like even more of an ass if I was stupid enough to buy one of those $550,000 townhouses right across the street from Ashbridge's Bay and the Sewage Treatment Plant. Kinda tough to enjoy that summer walk or BBQ on the terrace with the smell of shyte mixing it up with your chicken.
> 
> Mmmmmmmm!


:lmao: 
:clap: :clap: :clap: 
Oh so bitterly true.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The Shadow said:


> Outsiders working in Metro Toronto ought to help us still living here foot the bill for road repair. I believe this wholeheartedly and advocate for road tolls. NYC's done it (the city and the NYC state thruway), the last time I was in Cleveland they started gating and tolling roads. London's doing the congestion tax thing. Something needs to be done.


I advocate toll roads in which the money collected goes directly to building, maintaining and improving the roads and nothing else. A city like Toronto would see it as a Christmas present for a wonderful spending spree and travel junket.

Also, remember that the cost of tolling the labour rolling in from Durham Region will put a little more cost pressure on Toronto businesses hiring them. You collect the toll, but then pay again when the costs trickle down into the price of goods.


----------



## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

The Shadow said:


> Kinda tough to enjoy that summer walk or BBQ on the terrace with the smell of shyte mixing it up with your chicken.


Whimp. Wait for a favourable wind. 



Macfury said:


> You collect the toll, but then pay again when the costs trickle down into the price of goods.


I have noticed that angry people seldom pay attention in Economics 101.


----------

