# The depth of evil: CIA, waterboarding



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Stomach-churning details of CIA waterboarding crimes*





> The documents also lay out, in chilling detail, exactly what should occur in each two-hour waterboarding "session." Interrogators were instructed to start pouring water right after a detainee exhaled, to ensure he inhaled water, not air, in his next breath. They could use their hands to "dam the runoff" and prevent water from spilling out of a detainee's mouth. They were allowed six separate 40-second "applications" of liquid in each two-hour session - and could dump water over a detainee's nose and mouth for a total of 12 minutes a day. Finally, to keep detainees alive even if they inhaled their own vomit during a session - a not-uncommon side effect of waterboarding - the prisoners were kept on a liquid diet. The agency recommended Ensure Plus.


*And who is being tortured? Apparently, people who are not criminals:*



> Since October 7, 2001, when the current war in Afghanistan began, 775 detainees have been brought to Guantánamo. Of these, approximately 420 have been released without charge. In January 2009, approximately 245 detainees remained. This number further decreased to 215 by November 2009. (Wikipedia)


(BoingBoing)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

While I can understand waterboarding a guy who has planted a nuke somewhere, this sort of thing needs to be severely limited and observed.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

It's not on the same level Mr. Blazter.


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## Chimpur (May 1, 2009)

Thats amazingly horrible. Kinda blurs the line of who the "good guys" are. i think things like this serve to show that there are two sides to every coin....


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Please elaborate a bit.


I took it to mean that since the CIA are in effect working at the behest of the corporate fat-cats, that the CIA is still in the minors.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Please elaborate a bit.


I mean to suggest that the idea of waterboarding politicians for incompetence is pushing it. Obama would be soaked by this afternoon, and be handed a towel by George Bush on the way out.



MazterCBlazter said:


> Think the American economy is bad now? Just wait, no matter who they vote in, under the current system nobody will be able to fix it and things will just get worse and worse and more complicated. Already 30 of the American States are getting Governors voted in with Agendas to boost the individual States power and distance them as far as possible and in as many ways as possible away from Federal Power.
> 
> There are increasing numbers of people that want their states to become independent countries in themselves no longer part of the USA at all.


I disagree. I think the failure of the U.S. is rampant federalism. It's the bloated federal government that is bankrupting the country and attempting to impose its failed cookie-cutter solutions on areas of the country that neither want nor need them. On the other hand, in those areas where the federal government has the power to do something positive, it holds back.

One of the biggest problems in the U.S. right now is the rising cost of private health insurance. Unfortunately a health insurance policy available in one state is not available in another--there is little or no competition, and zero portability. The U.S. feds already have the power to legislate on impediments to "interstate commerce," but refuse to act.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

MazterCBlazter said:


> The USA is getting to be less and less, the good guys.


UMMM...... When, exactly, were they ever "the good guys"?

The list of U.S. intervention in the internal affairs of countries the world over is a very long one. My favourite example of how the United States has been shown to care more for corporations than democracy is Guatemala, 1954: 


> In 1954, the democratically elected Guatemalan government of Colonel Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán was toppled by U.S.- backed forces lead by Colonel Carlos Castillo Armas[5] who invaded from Honduras.
> 
> Assigned by the Eisenhower administration, this military opposition was armed, trained and organized by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency[6] (see Operation PBSUCCESS). The directors of United Fruit Company (UFCO) had lobbied to convince the Truman and Eisenhower administrations that Colonel Arbenz intended to align Guatemala with the Soviet Bloc.
> 
> ...


A truly fascinating account of this incident is found in Bitter Fruit: The Story of the American Coup in Guatemala.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Macfury said:


> I mean to suggest that the idea of waterboarding politicians for incompetence is pushing it. Obama would be soaked by this afternoon, and be handed a towel by George Bush on the way out.


I don't think he was suggesting incompetence as the reason. He was suggesting downright malice as the reason.

Obama is incompetent - if you feel someone trying to reorient the country's priorities to something that actually helps its citizens as incompetent, then feel free to subscribe to your puzzling definition of the word.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

hayesk said:


> I don't think he was suggesting incompetence as the reason. He was suggesting downright malice as the reason.
> 
> Obama is incompetent - if you feel someone trying to reorient the country's priorities to something that actually helps its citizens as incompetent, then feel free to subscribe to your puzzling definition of the word.


I'm suggesting that most of the malice results from incompetence, more than outright efforts to be evil. 

I don't agree with your statement that Obama is trying to re-orient the country's priorities to help the citizens. He is trying to reorient the federal government to be as large and powerful as it can possibly be. I have disagreed with 95% of his policies, but taken as a "to do" list, anybody who is able to deliver on as few of them as he has--with a majority in the House and Senate--has earned the label of "incompetent."


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> UMMM...... When, exactly, were they ever "the good guys"?
> 
> The list of U.S. intervention in the internal affairs of countries the world over is a very long one. My favourite example of how the United States has been shown to care more for corporations than democracy is Guatemala, 1954:
> 
> ...


The funny thing is, the US would have loved to have Arbenz after Somoza took power. 

A good article about how the US is creating a network of extraordinary rendition - "outsourcing torture" so to speak:

Annals of Justice: Outsourcing Torture : The New Yorker


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I think the USA is such a mess that it doesn't matter who gets voted in, the outcome will be a bigger mess.


Not sure what the percentage is but far too many Senators and Congressmen have sold their souls to one big corporate group and/or another. One need look no further than the disaster that BO is attempting to pass (off) as healthcare.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






I found this quite moving when I first came across it a year or so ago. I never really understood the distress one is under while being waterboarded. I always assumed it was an extremely disturbing experience, but to witness someone "quit" or essentially admit he was already under extreme discomfort so early in the process was rather scary.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Video did not load.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

SINC said:


> Video did not load.


Trust me, it's a waste of time. There's plenty of ways to torture people, it's been done for millennia by the good, the bad and the ugly. Like the CIA is an exception to all the others involved in such activities. 

But if you must SINC, here you go...




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

SINC said:


> Video did not load.


Sorry SINC! I posted (or tried to!) the video quickly then had to run. I didn't realize the link was not working.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*French village went insane after CIA spiked its bread with LSD*





> For 50 years, residents of the French village of Pont-Saint-Esprit have tried to understand the "cursed bread" incident, a moment of terrifying mass insanity and hallucinations that left at least five dead and dozens in asylums. Now the mystery is solved: the CIA secretly spiked the bread from the bakery with enormous quantities of LSD as part of its cold war mind-control experiments...


(BoingBoing)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

^^^^^^^^^^
Please note that while this one may prove to be true, these are still accusations only.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Amnesty International urges Bush probe over torture 'admission'*





> The London-based human rights organization, Amnesty International, is calling on the United States government to launch a criminal investigation into former President George W. Bush over his admission of authorizing torture methods.





> “Under international law, anyone involved in torture must be brought to justice, and that does not exclude former President George W. Bush. If his admission is substantiated, the USA has the obligation to prosecute him,” said Cordone. “In the absence of a US investigation, other states must step in and carry out such an investigation themselves.”


(Digital Journal)


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Forget about the Shrub.

With the House of Representatives dominated by the Republicans, I suspect the Excited States Representatives to be investigating the sitting Democratic President as they did during the Clinton administration.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> *Amnesty International urges Bush probe over torture 'admission'*


Once they deal with major human rights violators like Cuba, maybe they can deal with George Bush--sheesh!


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Once they deal with major human rights violators like Cuba, maybe they can deal with George Bush--sheesh!


Don't argue with CubaMark - he might come back and accuse you of supporting the inhumanity plaguing our planet and questioning how you can even think the way you do.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Lars said:


> Don't argue with CubaMark - he might come back and accuse you of supporting the inhumanity plaguing our planet and questioning how you can even think the way you do.


Sorry but evil is evil even when he masquerades as a shrub. The whole point of being the good guys is to supposedly give these pieces of 5#!t the flush they so richly deserve.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Bush sure didn't want to talk much went Matt Lauer asked him if waterboarding was legal for the US, was it legal for other countries to waterboard US soldiers if they were caught. He did, really want people to buy and read the book though. I find it pretty amazing, this was his very first TV interview, 2 years after he left office, which was obviously just to promote the book he is selling. 

*BUSH*: We believe America's going to be attacked again. There's all kinds of intelligence comin' in. And-- and-- one of the high value al Qaeda operatives was Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the chief operating officer of al Qaeda… ordered the attack on 9/11. And they say, "He's got information." I said, "Find out what he knows.” And so I said to our team, "Are the techniques legal?" He says, "Yes, they are." And I said, "Use 'em."

*LAUER*: Why is waterboarding legal, in your opinion?

*BUSH*: Because the lawyer said it was legal. He said it did not fall within the Anti-Torture Act. I'm not a lawyer., but you gotta trust the judgment of people around you and I do.

*LAUER*: You say it's legal. "And the lawyers told me." 

*BUSH*: Yeah.

*LAUER*: Critics say that you got the Justice Department to give you the legal guidance and the legal memos that you wanted.

*BUSH*: Well—

*LAUER*: Tom Kean, who a former Republican co-chair of the 9/11 commission said they got legal opinions they wanted from their own people.

*BUSH*: He obviously doesn't know. I hope Mr. Kean reads the book. That's why I've written the book. He can, they can draw whatever conclusion they want. But I will tell you this. Using those techniques saved lives. My job is to protect America and I did.

SNIP

*LAUER*: So if-- if it's legal, President Bush, then if an American is taken into custody in a foreign country, not necessarily a uniformed--

*BUSH*: Look, I --

*LAUER*: American -- 

*BUSH*: I'm not gonna the issue, Matt. I, I really--

*LAUER*: I'm just asking. Would it be okay for a foreign country to waterboard an American citizen?

*BUSH*: It's all I ask is that people read the book. And they can reach the same conclusion. If they'd have made the same decision I made or not.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Bush rarely responds to any questions about policy because they imply a criticism of the current President who holds many of the same policies. He will talk about his term of office but not this one.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks for that another typical awkward moment for the oaf. You'll never see these criminals travel into European and South American destinations for fear that they will be arrested and brought to the Hague and prosecuted.

I've always relished the thought that Cheney should be waterboarded with his pacemaker on - it would be shocking!


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Macfury said:


> Bush rarely responds to any questions about policy because they imply a criticism of the current President who holds many of the same policies. He will talk about his term of office but not this one.


Huh? His whole book he's promoting is about policy and the decisions he made. He answered a lot questions about policies and his decisions. For obvious reasons, he skirted this one, because of the obvious bad answer. If Bush and his own legal team says its legal to use this brutal method of torture, than its legal for other countries to torture US soldiers using the same method.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

ehMax said:


> Huh? His whole book he's promoting is about policy and the decisions he made. He answered a lot questions about policies and his decisions. For obvious reasons, he skirted this one, because of the obvious bad answer. If Bush and his own legal team says its legal to use this brutal method of torture, than its legal for other countries to torture US soldiers using the same method.


He's only talking about his own period in office. Bush doesn't believe that he forced the legal authorities to rubber stamp his decision. Lauer simply wanted him to make some sort of confession that Bush does not see as warranted. 

Again, Bush will not comment on what is considered legal now regarding what might happen to Americans abroad, because he does not want to be seen as criticizing or making policy for the current president. 

I'm no fan of George Bush, but he's been consistent in this since leaving office.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Thanks for that another typical awkward moment for the oaf. You'll never see these criminals travel into European and South American destinations for fear that they will be arrested and brought to the Hague and prosecuted.


Bush visited Brazil in 2009.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Macfury said:


> Bush visited Brazil in 2009.


I was unaware of that. I know he visited in 2007 and faced massive protests. I know he's been in Canada twice since leaving office. Why was he in Brazil last year?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I think it was just a speaking engagement on the same tour where he visited Canada.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Bring em on honcho...or should we say "chicken"...or maybe that's too insulting to chickens:

Bush cancels Europe trip amid calls for his arrest - War Room - Salon.com


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

> Bush cancels Europe trip amid calls for his arrest


I'm sure he'll always be welcome in Saudi, where he can sign the visitors' book previously signed by Idi Amin and, more recently, Ben Ali.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> I'm sure he'll always be welcome in Saudi, where he can sign the visitors' book previously signed by Idi Amin and, more recently, Ben Ali.


Indeed, and Egypt too judging from "Dick" Cheney's recent comments...

Cheney says Mubarak a good friend, U.S. ally - Politics - More politics - msnbc.com


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Looks like Obama has partaken of the "depths of evil." Info on Bin Laden's whereabouts was extracted from detainees through waterboarding.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I see Libertarians are just as "liberal" with the truth as the Bush-ites and Harper-ites...



> A former head of counterterrorism at the CIA, *who was investigated last year by the Justice Department* for the destruction of videos showing senior al-Qaeda officials being interrogated, says that the harsh questioning of terrorism suspects produced the information that eventually led to Osama bin Laden's death.





> Jose Rodriguez ran the CIA's CounterTerrorism Center from 2002 to 2005 during the period when top al-Qaeda leaders Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (KSM) and Abu Faraj al-Libbi were taken into custody and subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques"





> Rodriguez's assertion drew criticism from the White House. "There is no way that information obtained by [enhanced interrogation techniques] was the decisive intelligence that led us directly to bin Laden," says National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor. "It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that bin Laden was likely to be living there."


 (TIME / Yahoo News)

See also:

Surveillance, Not Waterboarding, Led to bin Laden

Rumsfeld: Waterboarding Didn’t Reveal Bin Laden Location

and even

Republicans Split Over Waterboarding’s Role in bin Laden’s Death


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Chimpur said:


> Thats amazingly horrible. Kinda blurs the line of who the "good guys" are. i think things like this serve to show that there are two sides to every coin....


What if in the midst of the "war on terror" you become the terrorist? Do you follow through and declare war on yourself next? Terrorism is a BS term that always describes the other guy, never yourself. And it's a BS war that can never be won, because you can not win a war against an abstract noun. You can defeat a country (to a degree), but not a word.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> Indeed, and Egypt too judging from "Dick" Cheney's recent comments...
> 
> Cheney says Mubarak a good friend, U.S. ally - Politics - More politics - msnbc.com


Anybody else notice how much weight Cheney has lost?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> I see Libertarians are just as "liberal" with the truth as the Bush-ites and Harper-ites...


CIA head Leon Panetta on NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams. 

WILLIAMS: Are you denying that waterboarding was in part among the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to this successful mission?
PANETTA: No, I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees.
WILLIAMS: Enhanced interrogation techniques, which has always been kind of a handy --
PANETTA: Right --
WILLIAMS: -- euphemism in these post-9/11 years, that includes waterboarding?
PANETTA: That's correct.


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*torture didn't help*



> The U.S. government stopped using enhanced interrogation techniques such as simulated drowning, or waterboarding, on terrorism suspects years ago.





> "Initial information about the courier came from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed after waterboarding," said New York Republican Peter King, who leads the House Homeland Security Committee.
> 
> Waterboarding, also known as simulated drowning, is the most controversial of the interrogation techniques President Obama banned when he took office.
> 
> ...





> "It simply strains credulity to suggest that a piece of information that may or may not have been gathered eight years ago somehow directly led to a successful mission on Sunday,





> "No one has ever argued that intelligence can't be extracted through brutality," Wizner says, "only that brutality is much less effective than humane interrogation."


Harsh Interrogation Tactics: Did They Work? : NPR


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

a few interesting articles. the first 2 from Andrew Sullivan (who's a fiscal conservative... but not a right wing nut job)

The Big Lie, Ctd - The Dish | By Andrew Sullivan - The Daily Beast

The Big Lie: Torture Got Bin Laden - The Dish | By Andrew Sullivan - The Daily Beast

Torture Opponents Were Right - Conor Friedersdorf - Politics - The Atlantic


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*'Most tortured man in Guantanamo Bay' freed without charge*










A man who is widely regarded as the most tortured prisoner in the history of Guantanamo Bay has been released without charge after nearly 14 years.

Mohamedou Ould Slahi, a Mauritanian national who wrote a best-selling memoir about life in the detention centre, was reunited with his family after US officials ruled he did not pose a strong enough threat to national security to continue his detention.

The Guantanamo Bay Diaries, published in January 2015, provided the first in-depth account of ritual humiliation and mistreatment suffered by inmates in the controversial American military prison.

* * *​
Mr Slahi was arrested by US forces in Mauritania following the 9/11 attacks in 2001, accused of travelling to Afghanistan in 1991 and 1992 to join al-Qaeda’s fight against the communist-led government.

He was then taken to Amman by Jordanian armed forces where he was held in solitary confinement for seven months, before being flown to Guantanamo Bay in August 2003 on suspicion of involvement in a plot to bomb Los Angeles in 1999.

Mr Slahi's book, in which he also wrote about longing to be reunited with his children and starting a small business, made him the highest-profile Guantanamo detainee unconnected to the 9/11 plot.

He has reportedly been open about his actions in Afghanistan but publicly stated he had never been an enemy combatant against the US.​
(Independent)


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