# Pissed at Adobe



## Superchicken (May 17, 2005)

(I also posted this on MacNN but I'm posting it here as well)

Frustrating thing is I still love photoshop but right now I'm considering ever buying another one of their products again.

I decided since I might be doing an internship with my church this coming year that while I still will have my student discount available to me for buying products I would see if there is any sort of prices available for non-profit organizations like churches etc. So I visited Apple's site and they have some stuff about essentially you're eligible to purchase from the Apple education store if you're a non-profit. I though OK not that great but I can live with that.
Then I think well Adobe would be the next big vendor I'd really care about getting something from. Well I visit their site and do a search for non-profit. And great it comes up with this gift program or something where you can either request four adobe products a year or a whole Creative Suite. I was like, wow that'd be awesome. So I download the application PDF to see, and on the bottom of the first page I read this, 

"Adobe does NOT support: individuals, religious organizations, churches, temples, seminaries, political organizations or private foundations. Also, Adobe does not support any organizations having unlawful discriminatory practices. Organizations with a secular designation (that is a separate 501(c)(3) status from the religious organization) that provides services to people regardless of their religious beliefs and does not propagate a belief in a specific faith are eligible for this program. Example: A food bank that is a separate 501 (c)(3) organization from a church that provides food and meals to anyone who qualifies for services, regardless of religious belief would qualify.) "

I had to re-read this several times before I really got a hold of how bloody offended I should be. I kept thinking it should be Adobe supports... but nope it says NOT in there. Not just Adobe does not support, but rather Adobe does NOT support. Individuals OK whatever, religious organizations... wait a second... churches, what? Temples? Seminaries (I believe Harvard has a Seminary for those that don't know these are simply schools that focus specifically on theology, biblical studies, counselling and a few other areas of study).

Then they go on to say that they would support a secular food bank, but if a church is trying to feed the homeless but feeding the exact same people Adobe does not want to offer them any help and would rather the food bank foot a bill for photoshop!

The absolute ultimate hypocrisy of it is that Adobe states they will not support any organizations that have unlawful discriminatory policies. Granted I don't think it's illegal to discriminate against organizations based on religion, it is illegal to discriminate against people for being religious! I'm Sooo freakishly offended right now it's not even funny!
I've already called Adobe and complained, and I hope that some of you even if you are not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Scientologist, Mormon, JW, Wiccan, whatever will consider phoning and telling Adobe that you too are pissed off that they're being so bloody bigoted.

I know personally I am trying to figure out if I want to buy their products any more. It's one thing to tell people that A P4 is better for video than an older G4... it's quite another thing to tell people a secular/atheistic view is better than having faith in anything! (For the record atheism/secularism on a world view is a much smaller belief system the biggest would be Christianity then Islam, after that if you group everyone who isn't sure together you might get the next biggest block, it's debatable but either way this policy is essentially someone part of at most 16% of the world's population saying my view is better than yours to the other 84%!).

If you want to take a look at the PDF check it out at http://www.giftsinkind.org/pdf/adobe_web.pdf

As well if you're pissed like I am, I used the number, 800-833-6687 which I got off their contact page http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/contact.html

... I'm still genuinely pissed about this... I really don't know if I'll be able to stomach buying another adobe product. And worst of all they're merging with Macromedia now so there goes another good company into this bigoted beast... though who knows how good macromedia was...
Either way... I now need to figure out my moral stance on piracy in light of this fact... is it better to buy, pirate, or simply abstain from using a product sold by a company that shows open contempt for God and His people...

Edit: I should Add M$ practically gives our church software...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Different companies have different policies - and it's their right. 
I'm trying to find out why you feel so entitled to a "discount". 

Where do you draw the line? I do a lot of pro bono work, should I get free versions of software? 

The other is why does your church "need" Photoshop, is this more of a personal pet project? can you find alternatives (GIMP comes to mind)?...


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## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

i don't think religions or churches should be considered charities either.


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## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

RicktheChemist said:


> A company that does not believe in religion? Go Adobe! I think that is a politically correct stance to take in today's world where there are so many different religions.. and faiths...
> 
> Adobe chose to not support any of them.. or it would have to support them all....
> 
> RtC



As a company that tries to provide 'universal' tools it is wrong for Adobe to make distinctions based on religion, and provide 'incentives' because of that. creates an ethical mess that they don't want to deal with, I guess...


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## Rob (Sep 14, 2002)

Superchicken, your complaints are just silly. There's no reason to expect a discounted price yet you seem to be demanding one. If you don't like the price then don't buy it.
Maybe you could complain to a higher power, but I'm sure he/she/it has heard enough whining about nothing.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I still dont understand why a church needs adobe software, never mind a discount...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Maybe they are reading the writing on the wall.......

Today's Globe



> Globe & Mail poll
> 
> Do you take part in religious services on a regular basis?
> 
> ...


So let's get this straight.

Adobe is doing what IT believes is correct for society and considers religion and politics divisive and so chooses to support secular organizations only in it's gifting.

YOU think religion is "okay" and that Adobe should also think it's "okay".

Why?

You can buy their product.
If you want it free you follow their rules.

Turnabout seems fair play.


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## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Maybe they are reading the writing on the wall.......
> 
> Today's Globe
> 
> ...


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

*Poll?*

SuperChicken
I think from these responses that the results might be predictable, but just to satisfy your curiosity, you may want to post a "Religion Discount/No Religion Discount" poll here on ehMac.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

errata - societies have mores....individuals have ethics.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ethics_or_Morals



> Ralph Waldo Emerson made much of this distinction over two hundred years ago in his essay, "Self-Reliance." He railed against the political sycophants and religious hypocrites of his day, pointing out that their values obtained to self-aggrandizement and social popularity, but not to the general good. Therefore, they were untrue to themselves.


Maybe Adobe has been reading Emerson lately.


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## rodkin (Jan 7, 2003)

I think you're all missing Superchicken's main point here. He's pissed off at Adobe's hypocrisy - the fact that they do "not support any organizations having unlawful discriminatory practices", while at the same time they're discriminating against a number of groups and organizations. 

I agree, this is being hypocritical, especially when they support a food bank "that provides food and meals to anyone who qualifies for services", yet they won't support a religious organization that does the same thing.

And by the way, for all of you who thought this was simply a religious/non-religious issue, it is not. Adobe also includes individuals, political organizations and private foundations among those it does not support.


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

Superchicken, go there and use your student discount to get CS2 et 329.95$ instead of 769.95$.
That is 57% discount.
Personnaly, I don't think you need more than one copy. Meanwhile, figure out how to justify to your church the purchase of a professional tool of that nature. 
If they approve, get also World of Warcraft and Doom3. It will help venting your anger.

http://www.camelot.ca/fr/search.html?words=photoshop&submit=Logiciel


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The focus of Adobe's prohibition certainly appears to limit it's support to organizations NOT espousing specific religious or political points of view but rather ONLY performing community service NOT under the aegis of any religious or political affliation.

It must be a distinct legal entity.

Foundations by definition has a viewpoint to support by offering grants.


> with the purpose of distributing grants to support causes in line with the goals of the foundation.


Foundations may...... support a foodbank with a grant but only the foodbank qualifies.
A political party.......
A religious organization may........
A individual may.............

But only the organizations directly providing the secular service to the community be education, foodbank etc qualified for Adobe's help.

I suspect the "Gifts in Kind" tag has a specific meaning.

It likely provides Adobe some tax advantages

http://www.inkindcanada.ca/en/part/part_faq.html#criteria

I suspect Adobe does NOT want to be associated with any specific religious or political stance so chooses to stay secular AND non political within the guidelines set for Gifts in Kind.

Is that so hard to understand.

If Adobe had a big WWF support sign on it's site would you criticise them for NOT supporting some other cause????

*It's their choice*.......it's corporate citizenship aspect of their company and they direct it as it fits corporate philosophy AND government guidelines.


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## kent (Oct 18, 2003)

Sure Adobe's stance is technically hypocritical, but churches and religon are exponentially more hypocritical. I applaud Adobe's stance ... I wouldn't give any religion a friggin dime, let alone free or discounted software. Virtually every problem in the world today stems from religion ... don't get me started! Think about that hypocrisy the next time your church turns their back on someone of a different race, sexual orientation, or trys to tell you that evolution doesn't exist. I don't mean to offend, but when someone who's religious talks about hypocrisy it strikes a nerve.

QUOTED from SuperChicken "... The absolute ultimate hypocrisy of it is that Adobe states they will not support any organizations that have unlawful discriminatory policies. Granted I don't think it's illegal to discriminate against organizations based on religion, it is illegal to discriminate against people for being religious! I'm Sooo freakishly offended right now it's not even funny ..."

Dude ... how can you say this? Religious groups are among the most discriminatory groups on earth - if you don't see this, you might want to look into it or resist the brain-washing. If Adobe gave your church a discount [by your logic] they would also have to give the religious fundamentalists of the world a discount too, which sort of indirectly says "we support suicide bombing". Imagine if people got wind that Adobe gave Osama and his boys a deal on Photoshop - people would go postal.

The next collection at your church should go towards Adobe CS2 - now there's an idea ... you could probably get the whole creative suite!


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

At best. Adobe discriminates against Discrimination. Leave it there. As you can see, it doesn't help when you take corporate messages personally. This was not intended for 1 person, it was intended for a wide range of religious or non religious groups that don't meet the criteria for their discount.

They didn't say, We're not giving you a copy because your Christian. They said, We're not giving it because your group doesn't qualify for our discount. (BIG DIFFERENCE)


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## Roland (Aug 15, 2002)

I also don't see what the big deal is. If you really want to save money on the software buy a copy at full price and donate it to the church. As a donation to a charitable organization you will get around 30 percent of it's value back on your taxes.

It's tough for a company to qualify religious institutions.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Pissed at Adobe

did your church approve the title?


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## speckledmind (Jan 12, 2005)

To start things off in my reply, let me say, that I have No religious beliefs of any kind.
That should make me neutral on that ground, or I think it should.

First, why should any religious group have access to discouts of any kind ???

Second, all productivity software, such as QuarkXress, Adobe Suite and other kinds of software, are exactly meant to be what they state, productivity work = publications = to publish = $$$.

If for any reason, someone should offer there work for free, it takes away money from my pocket, and it takes away my work = no food on the table.

IT TAKES AWAY WORK FROM OTHER GRAPHIC DESIGNERS, WHO TRY TO MAKE A LIVING FROM THERE WORK.

Sorry about the caps, but to many people forget that we need to eat once in a while.

Regards,
Denis


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Andreww - Ah these earthy types 

•••

No religious beliefs??? - I do believe that would put you AND I beyond the pale.....y'know Great Satan n all


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## kent (Oct 18, 2003)

Macdoc and Andreww - none here either ...


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Andreww:

I would add that 'pissed' on its own is an Americanism. The correct form is 'pissed off'.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Man what a thread!

UCGrafix, someone taking away your business lately? This thread didn't even mention publishing, did it? Maybe he's editting a few church social event photos? Maybe he's printing a few church pamphlets. We do have the right to do our own work! Even, I as an individual, have the right to create and print off my club's newsletter (if I had a club). 

I think non-profit organizations, including churches, expect discounts because in general they are there to help the commmunity and there is no sense having the community tax itself, just like there is no sense having the government tax itself. They also (with maybe the exception of the Catholic Church) have very little money to do what they do. Of course you can all take your jibes at whether churches really do help the community, but some do. 

I could also probably even go a little farther and say, since churches are considered God's house, do you really want to charge God for work done for a church, the one who created everything, even us? Then there is probably the thing about doing good things for the church which makes sure you get into heaven.

By the way, I have no ties to any non-charitable organization and I haven't been to church since.... ummm... well, a long long time.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Seem to have double posted somehow... haven't done that in awhile too... must be God getting back at me


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Kosh said:


> Man what a thread!


You can say that again. 

I'm suprised at how many are willing to jump onto this thread and derail it to nothing more than bigoted opinions laced with stereotypes, painted with broad strokes -- and I'm not a religious person by any means. Odd, isn't it... that people who point their finger at "the church" for imposing their views on the world are willing to solicit their opinion at the drop of a hat? Let he without sin... but what would one expect from "enlightened" people. 

That's why I stay as far away from then general populace as much as possible. You're all a bunch of monkies.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Manny that was one of the worst attempts at what I'll loosely term "expression" I've run across in a Looooong time. 

The written equivalent of talking with your mouth full


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Manny said a whole lot of nothing in that one post. Perhaps he consults for politicians.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

MannyP - Did you love playing with fire when you were a child?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

*MacDoc:* I learn from the best, naturally................ I could have used exaggerated ellipses to.............. better convey a thoughtful pause................. if you like. 

*gmark2k:* I don't associate with vermin.



Chealion said:


> MannyP - Did you love playing with fire when you were a child?


Absolutely. 

J/K of course. Except the politicians, part... I really don't like them.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

« MannyP Design » said:


> You can say that again.
> 
> You're all a bunch of monkies.



EEEEEEK EEEEEEEK


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

andreww said:


> EEEEEEK EEEEEEEK


Except for you andreww... you appear to be a radioactive rabbit with a machine gun.


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

This has now turned into a complete and utter derailing. 

Monkies eh? We used to be monkies, now just naked apes!


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

eeek eeek Darwin eeek eeek

I can't believe he called me a monkey. There has to be some kind of rule about that?


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

"Must take digital picture before..."


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

[/QUOTE] I can't believe he called me a monkey. There has to be some kind of rule about that?[/QUOTE]

Hey, that thread starts with "Pissed".
I guess the rules went overboard sometimes yesterday.
And so did the main subject...


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Where is Macnutt when you need a good derailment?


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Derailing?


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

Moscool said:


> Derailing?


No, no, MOSCOOL. It's "De railing".
As in, "I leant against de railing on my way down de stairs".

Okay, maybe only if you live here in de Ottawa Valley.


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## cdnbacon (Feb 26, 2001)

Well, as one who formerly worked on staff at several churches, and currently volunteers my time at my present church, I can relate to your disappointment Superchicken. It's unfortunate that Adobe has such a policy, but being that they are a secular profit oriented company, they have every right to set their own policies, even if their policy seems discriminatory to you, just as your church and mine have every right to hold to certain beliefs. If it disturbs you so much, seek an alternative company to buy software from, but at the same time, feel free to communicate your opinions to Adobe in a well reasoned manner, and not just because they do or don't give discounts. Sure Adobe makes some great and unique software, but there are alternatives.

I consider any benefits, discounts, and tax breaks afforded to non-profit organizations to be considered as the exception, not the norm. They are "gifts" given by corporations and the government because they value the contributions that non-profits make towards the community, and because they realize that budgets are sometimes very limited for these organizations. Beggars can't be choosers!  When I was on staff and managing tight department budgets, sure, it was nice to find those discounts or breaks, but at the same time I had no problem paying a fair price for whatever was really needed to fulfill the goals at hand, provided the budget was there.

In my present work as a professional AV consultant, I do quite a bit of work for churches. Depending on their size, I may or may not give a church a discount for my services. If I feel their budget can support it, I have no problem charging my full hourly rate, after all, I have a family to provide for and bills to pay! Though I volunteer a lot of time for my own church, for their most recent renovation, they had no problem paying me for my time and services in spending three days of my time in coming up with an acoustical model and sound system design, because they value my expertise, and trust that I will specify the right equipment that will be appropriate.

A little bit of background on myself: many moons ago I worked as an intern for a VERY large church in the USA (over 5,000 members) that had quite a large staff and following, which produced a bi-weekly newsletter that was mailed out to the membership that supplemented what was taught on Sundays, and also communicated news of happenings within the church and upcoming events. About a dozen pages worth in each issue. They had paid staff (which included two graphic artists, writer, photographer, and editor) whose job it was to put this newsletter together, and do an excellent job for that matter. One of my responsibilities was to investigate this new Apple computer that had just come out, and perhaps put together a small network of computers to do something completely new...desktop publishing. I had the privilege of putting together one of the very first systems in the area, consisting of two Mac 512's and one 128, with external floppy drives, a LaserWriter and ImageWriter printer, and MacPaint, MacWrite, Aldus Pagemaker version 1 all hooked together with a LocalTalk network!! Very cutting edge for the time, and after figuring out the stuff myself, I had to teach the staff how to put together a newsletter without having to run to the neighborhood typesetter, then cut and paste everything together! This entire setup paid for itself in two years time with the cost savings they realized in not having to typeset and layout everything by hand! Not only that, but the creativity of the staff was increased many-fold with the tools that made the whole process more efficient. We paid full price for everything, and back then Macs seemed a lot more pricey than the stuff we get today. Some here may think this was wasteful, but for a church of this size, back then it proved itself as an invaluable method for communicating with everyone in the church and disseminating a common vision and purpose. Now it's a lot cheaper to do the same on the internet or other media!

Seems like this situation is the exception to the norm for most churches even today. Many churches I know have a secretary that puts together the church bulletin in Word or some simple desktop layout software, then photocopy it for distribution. A select few are more sophisticated and have someone within the congregation that can utilize the full suite of applications from Adobe or others to its fullest potential. This does not preclude them from contracting out the more complex projects to a professional graphic artist, I did so myself quite often despite having all the tools at my disposal over the years because I recognized the value of doing so for certain projects.

FWIW,

Arthur


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

:clap:


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## Superchicken (May 17, 2005)

I gota say... I'm brutally disappointed... I would have hoped that my fellow Mac users and fellow Canadians would have been more thoughtful... and less bigoted... apparently not. Sadly all the tolerance and what not promoted by our schools and stuff... only applies to everyone but Christians.

I didn't realize so many of you would be so small minded.

I should also mention my sister/lawyer said that this may be enough to have Adobe charged by the Canadian government with a Human Rights violation. Because of the fact that they offer this but withdraw support if a group is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever. I'll be phoning Adobe again within the next few days and telling them that they have a few days to change their policy otherwise I will be alerting finding out where I can make my complaint with the government.
Oh well, even if our citizens care for no one but themselves, at least our laws don't allow the government to be so careless... (Though they can waste billions of dollars no prob, go figure.)


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Superchicken said:


> I should also mention my sister/lawyer said that this may be enough to have Adobe charged by the Canadian government with a Human Rights violation.


Now, you just sound whiny....
No offence SuperChicken but your sense of entitlement is rather perplexing. 

The comments here are similar to what you received on another board. 
This should tell you something, no?


Does your Church REALLY need Adobe CS or is this a pet project of yours?
Are you giving a free intership to your Church? Or, will you be paid for it
You have not really given many details...


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

Superchicken said:


> Sadly all the tolerance and what not promoted by our schools and stuff... only applies to everyone but Christians.
> 
> I didn't realize so many of you would be so small minded.
> 
> Because of the fact that they offer this but withdraw support if a group is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever.


Superchicken, sit back. This is what you just told us.

Read in your own words, how it sounds. Those quotes are the beef of your statement. Do you not realize that they sound redundant? They revoke the right to get a discount, only when, it would deem the support as a promotion for ONLY ONE religion. If your Christian soup kitchen had Hindu's and Jewish people working there and didn't promote Christianity, they would have no problems with offering you a discount. 

Other religions get the same treatment.

If you think about it, why should someone who needs help, be subjected to a religion which they aren't/don't believe in? I don't think it's right and I don't think Adobe does either.

This is not a thrashing against your Christianity, it's simply not providing support where the end result only benefits one TYPE of individual or community. There are many and whose to say that Christianity is right?(Christians) Who says Hinduism is right?(Hindu's) 

Take it as you will.. but, it's how it is. On top of that, Adobe legal will have no troubles getting around this case, if one arises. You are going to find less support, if this board and another are any indication.


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

Invoking God's kingdom and your Christian faith to get special discounts will allways get the type of reactions we witnessed in this thread. 
It will anger and divide.
But I will remind you that you are in a Mac Forum.
You can consider its members as bigots if you want but and I can assure you that if you finally describe the type of work you or your church need to do, and your budget, you will see that many of the bigots will suggest solutions to fit both.
Already some suggested that the Adobe suite might not be the best tool for you or your church.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

When you offer a discount or promotion to one faith and not another it would be a violation of rights. Denying a promotion to all faiths is not. After all, anybody could start their own religion!

Happy festivus!


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

As andreww eluded to,
I'm sure in the end, Adobe did this to rule out any abuse on a technicality...

AKA, the church of latter day jicons , or the Jicon Witnesses.


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Well said andreww!


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## robert (Sep 26, 2002)

Great. Another person who wants to sue because they don't get there way. boohoo!
Screw it up for everyone so you can save a few bucks. 
Why don't you take responsibility for yourself and admit you are using the church to get a better deal on software. I am sure that after you are done with this church project, the software WILL STAY on the churches computer so others in the church can use it to its fulll potential in other future projects.
Be an adult and take responsibility for your actions.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## farfisa (Nov 5, 2003)

Just steal it, man. A little Old Testament justice!


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

Two things that should never be discussed in the Anything Mac and iPod: religion and politics. This discussion, imho, would be better suited for the everything else forum. 

I would like to say that the level of vitriol directed at superchicken and his opinion was a bit too much for my taste.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

Just a little bit of fuel here...

http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050617.gtadobe0617/BNStory/Technology/

Who knew? It looks like some people ACTUALLY pay for Photoshop.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Off the original topic, thankfully...

From the Adobe profit article "Microsoft is said to have a competing software in the works and also plans products to compete with Adobe's dominant Photoshop and Illustrator imaging software."

Oh, cool, Microcrap versions of PhotoShop and Illustrator. They'll go well with Microcrap Publisher - the bain of all printing companies the world over. I know, I've had to deal with PDFs created in Published. What a god awful app. Hey - I said "god." Back on topic then...


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

I'm just stepping back into this thread after keeping an eye on it to say the following:
1) Knee jerk reactions are as intolerant as the perceived intolerance they react to.
2) Assuming you deserve a discount doesn't work. Yet somehow everyone to some degree feel this.
3) Would have closing this thread earlier made any difference? I don't think so, and closing it now won't do anyone any good. It's mud everywhere and it's not going to clean up. We don't need members throwing mud at each other, but we don't need to stop discussions because members are throwing mud.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

Chealion, 

I agree that closing the thread probably won't do any good, but I would suggest moving to the everything else forum.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Seconded - better in Everything Else. :clap:


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## Superchicken (May 17, 2005)

For the record you guys would do well to not assume things. Lots of places give discounts to those who work their butts off for no pay for other people. And so if I can save money that can go towards something else when purchasing for my church I'll do it. I was not pissed that I didn't get the discount, I could have easily bought it with my student discount anyway.

And besides my church wouldn't have fit the bill even if it hadn't been for the religious requirement because as of right now we don't have anything like a soup kitchen or anything doing educational stuff.

That said, I am pissed that there could be organizations around that are doing exactly what Adobe claims to want to help, but would not be eligible because they actually believe in something other than secular humanism. (Which is in itself a pseduo religious belief system with lots of people). I also feel offended as a Christian because clauses like this make it clear that Adobe considers us to somehow be inferior to our secular counterparts. Which is not only an incorrect assertion... but a terribly prejudice one.


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## robert (Sep 26, 2002)

I think you just proved why Adobe adopted it's policy.
Your attitude and actions here are the very thing Adobe wants to distance itself from.
In not seeing the big picture, you have proven their stance to be a correct one.
Sadly, you will never see this.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## iMatvei (Apr 4, 2000)

I don't see why churches should get discounts also. It would mean anyone claiming to be of some religion would get the software for free/discounted.

Joe-blow starts his own religion: boom, free photoshop!

Tom Cruise and what's her name want to do a newsletter about their love: boom, free photoshop for scientologists!

Everyone would get it free, noone would pay, everyone would be happy but Adobe.

If you don't have a soup kitchen or recycled clothes outlet for the poor that is independant for proselythysing a particular faith, if all you do is sing songs and tell yourselves how righteous you guys are, then "boo hoo". Why should you get to make free adobe crap?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Just get Photoshop Elements and be done with it.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

*You say we're ALL in a religion...*



Superchicken said:


> ...That said, I am pissed that there could be organizations around that are doing exactly what Adobe claims to want to help, but would not be eligible because they actually believe in something other than secular humanism. (Which is in itself a pseduo religious belief system with lots of people). ....


So, SuperChicken, if we're religious if we're christian, and we're "pseudo religious" if we're not religious, I guess you'd want Adobe to give _everyone_ free or discounted copies of their software, since religious groups deserve the discounts, and we're all in a religion of some type or another?
No, wait. You want Adobe to give the religious organisations the break, but not the pseudo religious people?
I'm getting confused... 



When is EhMax starting the *Apple and Religion* section?


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## district (Sep 14, 2003)

Superchicken said:


> I gota say... I'm brutally disappointed... I would have hoped that my fellow Mac users and fellow Canadians would have been more thoughtful... and less bigoted... apparently not. Sadly all the tolerance and what not promoted by our schools and stuff... only applies to everyone but Christians.
> 
> I should also mention my sister/lawyer said that this may be enough to have Adobe charged by the Canadian government with a Human Rights violation.


I read the agreement, and I believe that the offer is only extended to not-for-profit non-governmental organizations (UNESCO is a good example). 

Your sister must be a poorly read lawyer, because human rights laws only apply to individuals and not entire sects. She's thinking of constitutional law. 



I very troubled by your bellyaching on behalf of the church. Essentially you are arguing that having to pay for Adobe products is a violation of religious freedoms, and thus human rights. Fair enough, but as I'm writing this religious groups are railing against same-sex marriage. A whole segment of society is being denied a basic right simply because of religious opposition.

So this is what I'm proposing. If you do that take your gripe to the highest court, offer an exchange. A free copy of creative suite for every church in exchange for unopposed passage of Bill C-38, it's only far.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Devil's advocate you say?........jolly good.


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## iKV (Oct 3, 2004)

> Adobe does NOT support: individuals, religious organizations, churches, temples, seminaries.....


You know what infuriates me??!!?  That Adobe is discriminating against mosques, convents, synagogues, etc. by not including them in their exclusion policy. Why do churches get to be included in their exclusion policy, but Muslim mosques are not included to be excluded???? I'm writing to Adobe to properly exclude the above buildings - or exclude the words churches and temples by including the umbrella term "religious buildings"!! This is outrageous!!!!!!!!!!!!  



Sorry, I avoided this thread for the longest time, but finally gave in and read it given the amount of posts, and then had to post after reading how low people on both sides of the argument could go on each other.


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## markceltic (Jun 4, 2005)

Well I wonder if the Catholic schools of any province get any discounts.  True they're an educational institution but with an agenda nonetheless.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Thread has been moved to Everything Else.



Superchicken said:


> Lots of places give discounts to those who work their butts off for no pay for other people.


But Adobe won't, because someone in the legal team felt that to be the most impartial and sensitive is to exclude anything that can be misconstrued as pampering to the dreaded R word, or since they are an American company, the dreaded T word that accompanies it. (R = Religion, T = Terrorism).

HowEver - Do you ever give benefit of the doubt? (In reference to why you question Superchicken's volunteering).

Although the question does stand did Superchicken deserve a discount whether or not he works at a religious centre? Or are people forgetting that the original point of the topic back in the first post about how is it that Adobe is not supporting any non-profit organization that has something to do with a religious organization and how that looks like a double standard just because one soup kitchen is run by a church, the other by the exact same people but as a seperate organization.



iMatvei said:


> If you don't have a soup kitchen or recycled clothes outlet for the poor that is independant for proselythysing a particular faith, if all you do is sing songs and tell yourselves how righteous you guys are, then "boo hoo".


The Salvation Army is a "Christian" organization, but I don't see them outwardly proselytizing those that help. Also, the only righteousness of the Christian church I've ever seen is either perceived incorrectly, or you've been talking to someone who hasn't figured out or plain forgotten one of the fundamental points of the Christianity. (It's the same as saying all Muslims in the Middle East are terrorists who hate the West - albeit slightly different places in their respective faiths where it is seen to be wrong).


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> The Salvation Army is a "Christian" organization, but I don't see them outwardly proselytizing those that help.


  You have NO idea.......



> The Salvation Army sought to buy the right to discriminate from the White House in exchange for mounting an expensive and vigorous public relations offensive for the fbo bills. It is like Alice in Wonderland. First, you've got a religious organization pouring thousands, if not millions, into a PR campaign in order to receive federal funds for social services (instead of spending that money on social services). Second, you've got the Salvation Army agreeing to be the front man for the Bush Administration's agenda.





> Ironically, even as religious organizations pursue the equal treatment theme for themselves, many also have been quietly insisting that they ought to have a right to deny equality to others. That is, they insist on the right to discriminate in hiring for such social services — just as the politically powerful Salvation Army did, at least until its correspondence found its way into the hands of reporters. They want this right to discriminate even though the biggest selling point of the fbo initiative is that religious social services are intended to serve many beyond their own adherents.
> 
> The Salvation Army believes that homosexuality is sinful and therefore does not want its services delivered by homosexuals. The rhetoric in favor of discrimination is a bracing claim to the "right to practice religion freely."
> 
> ...


You think the military name is an accident............



> The case arose after The Salvation Army began to require all employees in its Social Services for Children division to fill out a form on which they: a) identify their church affiliation and all other churches attended for the past decade, b) authorize their religious leaders to reveal private communications to the Salvation Army; and c) pledge to adhere to the religious mission of The Salvation Army which, according to The Salvation Army, is to "preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
> Moreover, new job descriptions for every social services employee now require compliance with The Salvation Army’s religious mission statement. Previously, the social services unit had its own mission statement which was completely secular.
> The lawsuit asks the federal court to order the 136-year-old charity to stop these practices and to rule that the government funding of the Salvation Army’s faith-based discrimination against its social services employees in foster care, adoption, HIV, juvenile detention and other social services is illegal. Agencies for New York State, New York City and Nassau County and Suffolk County are named also as co-defendants.
> The NYCLU lawsuit was filed on behalf of 18 current and former Salvation Army employees of varying religious and non-religious backgrounds. They include many of the most respected senior managers in the agency.


Just google on "salvation army banned" for a eye opener.



> February 24, 2004
> Salvation Army Accused of Discrimination
> Current and former Salvation Army employees sued the organization famous for its red Christmas kettles Tuesday, alleging the government-funded group preached religious and sexual intolerance to its staff.


it goes on......and the fundamental mission statement



> The "Mission Statement" of the Salvation Army (SA) reads as follows:
> 
> "The Salvation Army, an international movement, *is an evangelical part of the universal Christian church*.


We spend billions to promote equality and rational thought then are expected to kowtow to organizations that are entirely antithetical to those concepts.

Adobe is right on the mark with their policy. Do good, don't preach.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

MacDoc - Maybe it's just here in Calgary then, as I know what the Sally Ann is supposed to stand for but never saw them doing anything. Sorry about that.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

I think everyone should be free to believe whatever superstitious nonsense they like, but it really pisses me off when someone starts to think that makes them "special" in some way and entitled to some kind of privileged treatment (such as discounts). Join the catholic church - they've got plenty of money. (Oh sorry, forgot about the cost of all those law suits)


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