# Hurricane Katrina



## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Yikes, another hurricane to hit Southern Florida. Gotta help but feel sorry for them.  CNN  has excellent Hurricane coverage. The weather seems to be getting weirder and weirder by the season.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Florida may be hit with 15+ inches of rain.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

2 people have been killed aswell.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Poor flarrida.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

I've always wanted to experience a hurricane up close and personal. Call me crazy, but I think it would be an interesting experience.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I think it would be awesome, provided the appropriate safety measures were in place.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

andrewenterprise, I was caught in a hurricane while in Tampa, Florida back in 1974. It was not a very desructive hurricane, as I recall, but I could not believe the amount of rain and constant wind strength that fell and roared on past during the time it went over us.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

The tornado that hit us up north a few years ago was quite enough thank you. You don't see or hear anything til its over.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Cameo, I was in two tornadoes in Georgia, and the smaller of the two sounded like a New York City subway coming into the station.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Must have been from a different direction - the one that hit us - the water that was hitting the windows muffled everything so well that we didn't hear 8 of our hundred year old trees hit the ground - one only missed the house by 100 ft. Other places weren't so lucky, trees on peoples roofs, boats, all across the road - no power for a week in some areas. Boats that started out in the water on land etc.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Cameo, if you saw the movie "Twister", remember when they were under the bridge and hanging on as the tornado went over them. This is similar to the sound of what I experienced.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

What a bad movie!
I loved the special effects though!
That scene was excellent! To bad the movie was ruined by the horrible sub plot.

If I believed in God I'd think he was trying to tell Florida something. As a former resident of Florida I think the message sould be obvious.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

martman said:


> If I believed in God I'd think he was trying to tell Florida something. As a former resident of Florida I think the message sould be obvious.


Yikes! I almost sound like Pat Robertson here!



Pat Robertson said:


> I would warn Orlando that you're right in the way of some serious hurricanes, and I don't think I'd be waving those flags in God's face if I were you.
> -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program, August 6, 1998, on the occasion of the Orlando, Florida, Gay Pride Festival 1998


Of course the message I give to florida would be more like this:
Stop electing Bush(s) all of them!


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Looks like it has really picked up strength in the past few days. Now a category 3 aiming to make landfall sometime early next week.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Has anyone ever noticed that the US seems to get more than its fair share of natural disasters? Earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, brushfires, tornados, drought.

Canada had the ice storm, Manitoban floods, fires in B.C, and so on. But it seems that the US gets more in a year than we get in a decade.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Yeah, I have noticed that too. We get our fair share, and also get twisters around here (last twister was 20 mins away from my house in fergus). I also think that Canadian natural disasters get far less publicity than disasters in the US.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

now upgraded to a cat 5:



> MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 160 MPH...WITH HIGHER GUSTS.
> KATRINA IS A POTENTIALLY CATASTROPHIC CATEGORY FIVE HURRICANE ON
> THE SAFFIR-SIMPSON SCALE. SOME FLUCTUATIONS IN STRENGTH ARE LIKELY
> DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS.
> ...


click here for the storm's predicted path










call me crazy, but i also have always wanted to experience a hurricane. i have a fascination with thunder- and lightning-storms going back to when i was a little kid. during the big storm we had a week and a half ago, i had this urge to stand outisde in our parking lot and watch it roll in over the airport. the lightning show was fantastic!


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

You and me both Miguel. 

Category 5, headed straight for New Orleans (so says NOAA). This storm is more Powerful than Camille back in 1969.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

lpkmckenna said:


> Has anyone ever noticed that the US seems to get more than its fair share of natural disasters? Earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, brushfires, tornados, drought.
> 
> Canada had the ice storm, Manitoban floods, fires in B.C, and so on. But it seems that the US gets more in a year than we get in a decade.


We get a natural disaster annually. It's called winter!


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## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Yes, but by standard of most of the United States, winter would rate as a natural disaster. Ever see the news clips of what happens when it snows in SC or GA. LOL


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

looks like God is a Democrat


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Always thought she was!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

iPetie, I experienced some snow and ice "storms" in my 3 years in Athens, Georgia and 2 years in Waycross, Georgia. It is not a pretty sight to see people trying to drive through these sorts of conditions.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Katrina is going to pound New Orleans, I fear. It is such a beautiful city, but over half of the city is below sea level, and the levy system may not hold back all of the storm surges. We shall see.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Just an update on this storm. The city of New Orleans has been ordered evacuated by it Mayor.


From the New York Times:


Threatened with a potential catastrophe, the mayor of New Orleans ordered people in the city to evacuate today as Hurricane Katrina gained strength. President Bush has already declared an emergency for Louisiana and Mississippi, which along with other parts of the northern Gulf coast states lie in the direction of the hurricane.

The city's distinct terrain makes it particularly vulnerable to the storm surges, heavy rains and high winds of a hurricane. With more than a million people in its suburbs and center, the city is surrounded on three sides by water, and lies below sea level in a bowl-shaped basin. Pumps would fail if the storm surge of up to 25 feet overwhelmed the city's levees.

People trying to leave New Orleans on Sunday morning ran into heavy traffic.

"That's why we are taking this unprecedented move," Mayor Ray Nagin said at a news conference that was broadcast live. "The storm surge most likely will topple our levee system."

In an interview later with CNN, the mayor also referred to the potential impact the hurricane could have on the oil supply from the vulnerable area.

"The real issue - that I don't think the nation is paying attention to - is that through the city of New Orleans, through the Gulf of Mexico, we probably deal with almost a third of the nation's domestic oil that is produced. And that will most likely be shut down," Mr. Nagin said.

"So, this can have a significant impact on oil prices going forward," he added.

As the hurricane, with winds of about 175 miles per hour, headed toward the area this morning, thousands of people in New Orleans jammed freeways leaving the city, while others nailed boards over the windows of their businesses. Stranded tourists and others unable to leave are able to use the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter. With a state of emergency declared, federal emergency assistance was being deployed and national guard troops were being prepared.

In televised remarks today, President Bush urged people in threatened areas to evacuate to safe ground. "We cannot stress enough the danger this hurricane poses to Gulf Coast communities," Mr. Bush said, adding that everything possible would be done to help them.

Many of Louisiana's national guard forces are currently deployed to Iraq, but the general in charge of the Louisiana troops "has 1,500 troops ready to be deployed, with another couple of thousand that they can tap into pretty quickly," Mr. Nagin said in the CNN interview.

The National Hurricane Center said in a statement today that the hurricane has gained "potentially catastrophic" strength and issued a warning for the north-central Gulf coast region, from Morgan City in Louisiana to the Alabama-Florida border, meaning that the storm is expected to strike those areas within the next 36 hours. Early this morning the hurricane was about 250 miles south of the mouth of the Mississippi River.

"We are facing a storm that most of us have long feared," Mr. Nagin said in the news conference.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Interstate 10, which was converted Saturday so that all lanes headed one-way out of town, was totally gridlocked, according to The Associated Press.

Hurricane Katrina is a Category 5 hurricane, which means its storm surges are generally greater than 18 feet above normal and that its winds exceed 155 miles per hour. Only three hurricanes of this strength have ever hit land in the United States since the category was recorded: the Labor Day Hurricane of 1935, Hurricane Camille in 1969, and Hurricane Andrew in 1992, the hurricane center said.

The hurricane's landfall could still come in Mississippi and affect Alabama and Florida, but the storm looked likely to come ashore Monday morning on the southeastern Louisiana coast, said Ed Rappaport, deputy director of the National Hurricane Center in Miami, The A.P. said. That put New Orleans squarely in its sights, the agency said.

Hurricane Katrina churned through the Gulf of Mexico on Friday, after cutting a swath through southern Florida and leaving seven people dead. Three people who died in the hurricane were crushed by falling trees. One man lost control of his car and rammed into a tree. Three others drowned, including two who tried to ride out the storm in a houseboat.

The storm brought Miami and other cities along 70 miles of the coast to a near standstill for much of Thursday and Friday.

Hurricane Dennis, the first storm of the year for Florida, hammered the Panhandle and sections of Alabama and Georgia in July, bringing less wind damage than expected, but widespread flooding.

The Panhandle was hit hard last year by Hurricane Ivan.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Radar images of this hurricane look ominous. I fear for the worst for those folks in and around New Orleans.


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## mactrombone (Nov 3, 2004)

Funny thing is, here is the weather forecast from the weather network for New Orleans: http://theweathernetwork.com/weather/cities/usa/pages/USLA0338.htm

On Monday, "Rain at times heavy". Can you spell "understatement"?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

This could very well turn out to be one of the worst disasters in U.S. history. I sure hope not, but I too fear for the people of the south.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I have seen the levy system surrounding NO, and I cannot see how it can stand up to 25+ feet storm surges. We shall see. A prayer or two sent their way might be helpful.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

The latest radar pics of this storm are amazing to see, but the reality of what it shows will only be known tomorrow. The storm is the size of Texas!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

National Geographic wrote this a while back 



> The Louisiana bayou, hardest working marsh in America, is in big trouble—with dire consequences for residents, the nearby city of New Orleans, and seafood lovers everywhere.
> 
> 
> Get a taste of what awaits you in print from this compelling excerpt.
> ...


How bang on is this going to be....???

*Guess what........IT'S WHEN*


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, while I don't think the death toll shall reach 50,000, there is actually talk of "re-placing", as in relocating, New Orleans from its current location. We shall see.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The tighter and more uniform the eye - the worse the storm....!!!










Yes that's an actual ( tho colour enhanced ) image.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

That is an incredible shot, MacDoc. God help those in its path.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

They are all available here

http://www.stormtracker.noaa.gov/stormtracker-katrina.htm


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, its like watching water go down a drain, with the nearly perfect circle in the center of the counter-clockwise swirl. Deadly.....


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

With winds well over 165mph, this storm is being described as a 200 Mile wide F3 tornado  
The tornado alone can cause major damage, let alone the 200 Mile wide Hurricane. Add in New Orleans being 6ft below sea level.......wow . I was watching CNN earlier, and they were talking about how people having to leave their pets. I just thought to myself how impossible it would be to leave my dog home while I evacuated, if I were to be in that situation. The emotional despair with a storm can be just as devastating as the physical damage, if not more so. Especially for people leaving pets and losing loved ones, not to mention all of the lost things that people lose with their house and some of their most priceless possessions (family photos and such). Truely sad for all.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

I'm not a religious person by any means, but I'm praying for the people of Louisiana and Mississippi.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

People are actually being advised to let their pet free rather than caging them up and putting them on the top floor. 

I agree with iPetie that we should send some prayers, positive karma or hope to those folks that are in harms way.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Yes Dr.G, it is looking very bad at this point. A cat 5 going to hit dead on.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I have been following the NOAH links that MacDoc sent. A real monster!!

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/FLOAT/IR4/20.jpg


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I am using my "Radar in Motion" widget to track it and also tunned into CNN for live coverage.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I fear the most for the French Quarter, which is way down in the "bottom of the bowl" which is NO.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

I'm watching it right now on my bigscreen. This big screen really brings out the anxiety that is happening right now in New Orleans. Truely tragic.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

If the storm surge goes over the levys, there is no way for the water to be drained from the NO area......other than to break down the levys, which could take weeks.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

AE, im coming over! Your TV is bigger.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sadly, this shall not be a prett sight to watch on any TV.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Alright, see you soon.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Don't forget your PowerBook!


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Ok, i'll hop in the car and drive down the street- see you soon.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

PS-I'll bring the beer!


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Alright, sounds good.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I have arrived at AE's house for the best Hurricane coverage on 52" Plasma TV. Larry King is making as fool out of himself (as usual) with his idiotic remarks and questions surrounding Katrina.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Larry is quite the loof.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Aww, no more Larry.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Larry: "Is there any chance of this growing to a category six John?"
John (live on location, Hurricane expertt): "Uh Larry there actually is no such thing as a cat 6 hurricane...."

Me:ROTFLMAO


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Hopefully everybody gets out of harms way before it hits.

These extreme weather events make you wonder if this is a symptom of global warming. If it is, I can't help but see the irony given that Louisiana relys so much on oil revenue (the potential cause of global warming) and that the US doesn't seem to be very willing to acknowledge the findings of most climatologists.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Yes, a major dose of irony for that area. Although, the majority of the people who will die in this hurricane will not be those benifiting from the oil business.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

They've said that there are about 1 million people who have heeded the warnings have left New Orleans.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

comprehab said:


> Yes, a major dose of irony for that area. Although, the majority of the people who will die in this hurricane will not be those benifiting from the oil business.


True enough, but nobody deserves to die.

I wonder if this will make people think twice about global warming.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Global warming is inevitable and hurricanes are natural occurances.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Holy shmoly this morning they said that the hurricane would be a class 2, possibly a class 3... but a class 5?? How'd that happen?? That thing's gonna rip New Orleans off the map.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Yes, i am staying up all evening to watch the coverage (I'm a news junkie, especially weather related.) It was JUST downgraded to a cat 4 storm and looks like it will be that way when it hits New Orleans. This is still going to be a devistating storm.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Although the Cat was downgraded, the size of the storm has not decreased, just the intensity. This still looks like it will be one of the biggest and most devistating storms to hit the US.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

They may have somewhat dodged the worst - the storm tracked east ( not by much mind you ) :clap: - not so good for those to the east but at last that's the weaker side of the storm - still the western eyewall with winds of 250 kpm looks to hit New Orleans.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, it is where the water will go (or stay) should the storm surge carry it over the levy. NO is in a bowl, and thus, the water will be trapped there as it was after Camille.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The western side of the storm has the winds counteracting the storm surge - that's why this such a positive thing for NO.
The wind will be high but the storm surge much much lower than to the east. That's the biggest plus factor.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

For their sake, let us hope so, because there shall also be a great deal of rain with this storm. We shall see.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

One cannot help but think of all those people as we begin our day. Good luck to them all.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I'm still tuned in to the CNN coverage-they a re doing an excellent job covering it. The flooding has started, already people going down the hi-way in boats. They have still not seen the worst yet.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I am always amazed at how CNN can get to places where no one else can get to with real coverage.


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## Denjira (Jan 23, 2005)

They have reporters all over the place.. Comprehab's been up all night.. hogging Andrew's tv..


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

one creepy thing i heard today, is that most of the dead in new orleans are laid to rest in mausoleums, since the ground is so swampy. if the mausoleums are flooded we could be seeing bodies, coffins, bones, etc floating around with all the other flotsam.

according to the latest track prediction, it looks likes southern ontario is going to get the remnants of the storm wednesday mid-day. hopefully it will have weakened by then.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

New orleans will likely be alright, the hurricane took a sudden eastward turn and the eye will pass to the right of NO, which is a very good thing. It is the area to the right of NO that is in big trouble at this point.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

We don't want it to weaken too much. I'd love to see wha Katrina has to offer, get a little taste of it. Not too much of course, but a little taste. However, we want it to weaken enough where there is no loss of life and little to no structural damage. Sometimes its inevitable, why not make the best of it?


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

andrewenterprise said:


> We don't want it to weaken too much. I'd love to see wha Katrina has to offer, get a little taste of it.


After being in Halifax the Night of September 28th and the Day of September 29th 2003.  I will never wish for active weather. That city is still not over Juan.

I would suggest you should take care with what you wish for.

Southern Ontario and parts East could be in for some very heavy rain as is. Hopefully not the winds.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Andrew, I am strongly in agreement with BigDL. There is no such thing as "a taste of it" when it comes to natural disasters.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

One of the radar/satelites is no longer working due to the hurricane so neither my radar widget or CNN can get a good picture of the western part of the hurricane


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

The doppler radar in Slidell has been totally knocked out, so they are using radar from Mobile, Alabama.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I have been to both Mobile, Alabama, and Biloxi, Mississippi, and I fear that they shall not fare well in this storm either. We shall see.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

i just heard that the roof of the superdome has been damaged and rain is now pouring in. let's hope the field doesn't flood! there's 10,000 people in there taking shelter.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

miguelsanchez said:


> i just heard that the roof of the superdome has been damaged and rain is now pouring in. let's hope the field doesn't flood! there's 10,000 people in there taking shelter.


The Super dome as a structure is very strong. There is room for 60K people in the concourses so they should be OK.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

yes that happened a few hours ago-a small piece of the roof has peeled off. Water and light is getting in but the people under the hole have been moved to a dry spot. I *think* people are off the field anyways because they feared the field would flood. 

The french quarter is flooded, water up to the wheel wells on the cars on the street-looks very bad. All the water is purely from rain...


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Yeah, they've since moved the people who are wet into areas where there is better protection. Its not surprising because the roof is so thin.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Excerpt from CNN

Authorities in Gulfport told CNN that 10 feet of water cover downtown streets.

"There is intense damage," said CNN's Gary Tuchman from Gulfport. "We are watching the dismantling of a beautiful town."

"We are watching these building deteriorate and break down before our eyes," he said. "Because the water is so deep, boats are floating up the street. There is extensive damage here. This is essentially right now like hell on earth."

In Biloxi, CNN meteorologist Rob Marciano reported that wind gusts topping 100 mph were starting to pull the roofs off of nearby buildings. (Watch video report from Biloxi, Mississippi)

Hurricane warnings are posted from Morgan City, Louisiana, eastward to the Alabama-Florida state line, including New Orleans and Lake Pontchartrain. This means winds of at least 74 mph are expected in the warning area within the next 24 hours.

A tropical storm warning and a hurricane watch are in effect from the Alabama-Florida state line eastward to Destin, Florida, and from west of Morgan City to Intracoastal City, Louisiana. A tropical storm warning is also in effect from Intracoastal City, Louisiana, west to Cameron, Louisiana, and from Destin, Florida, eastward to Indian Pass, Florida.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

is it a fabric roof? i read somewhere that it's made of polyurethane, but that doesn't seem right to me. it sounds like it would be too flimsy.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Floodwaters from the east would carry toxic waste from the "Industrial Canal" area, nicknamed after the chemical plants there. From the west, floodwaters would flow through the Norco Destrehan Industrial Complex, which includes refineries and chemical plants, said Ivor van Heerden, director of the Louisiana State University Public Health Research Center in Baton Rouge. Van Heerden has studied computer models about the impact of a strong hurricane for four years.

"These chemical plants [could] start flying apart, just as the other buildings do," said van Heerden said. "So, we have the potential for release of benzene, hydrochloric acid, chlorine and so on."( See the video report of how gasoline and unearthed coffins might worsen the situation)

That could result in severe air and water pollution, he said.

In New Orleans, which lies below sea level, gas and diesel tanks are all located above ground for the same reason that bodies are buried above ground. In the event of a flood, "those tanks will start to float, shear their couplings, and we'll have the release of these rather volatile compounds," van Heerden added.

Because gasoline floats on water, "we could end up with some pretty severe and large -- area-wise -- fires."

"So, we're looking at a bowl full of highly contaminated water with contaminated air flowing around and, literally, very few places for anybody to go where they'll be safe."
He went further.

"So, imagine you're the poor person who decides not to evacuate: Your house will disintegrate around you. The best you'll be able to do is hang on to a light pole, and while you're hanging on, the fire ants from all the mounds -- of which there is two per yard on average -- will clamber up that same pole. And, eventually, the fire ants will win."

The levees intended to protect the city vary in height, from as low as 10 feet above sea level to about 14 feet, he said. They too are vulnerable, because they are made of earth, he said.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Uptown New Orleans


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Truely remarkable images MacDoc. Where'd you get them from?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Just hunting about the web.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I'm still tuned into CNN. Something rather humerous happened-one of the CNN reporters fell over while trying to observe a downed tree in a huge gust.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Just goes to show how strong the wind gusts really are.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Water is as high as 12 feet on some roads now, a great day for boating


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## phil (Jun 7, 2005)

Anyone seen this guy?


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Yeah, Denjira showed us the link earlier today in the chat room-pretty funny!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

More pics








French Quarter damage










Hard to make out but those white things are curtains flapping on the Hyatt Regency in NO!!!! All the windows blown out!!!. Guests huddled in conference rooms.

Anyone got a pic of the oil platform, hitting the bridge  - we're talking BIG platform and a huge suspension bridge.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

What's with all of the Schadenfeude? It looks like N'Orleans dodged a bullet but was still hit pretty badly. The levys largely held but the masonry in the French Quarter is unlikely to resist much abuse - its so old and moist from the constant humidity. There's still a threat from the Mississippi valley flow over the next few days. The hotel damage is weird and suggests a design flaw - where air pressure was unable to normalize and popped one panel which lead to a series of failures. The city is incredibly resilient in mind and spirit though and I bet they're selling beignets at the Café du Monde within the next couple of days.....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If you look at the curve on that facade it's a pretty good airfoil at 200 KMPH ....and THAT would be the low pressure zone......POP goes the windows.
•••••

It's ain't over either. There is a TON of heat in the Caribbean












> Is global warming making hurricanes more ferocious? New research suggests the answer is yes.
> 
> Scientists call the findings both surprising and "alarming" because they suggest global warming is influencing storms now -- rather than in the distant future.
> 
> ...


Looks like the "future"....just arrived. Cat One in Florida - Cat 5 a few days later


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

phil said:


> Anyone seen this guy?


Someone's end-of-year evaluation is really going to suck...


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

And it's only a third of the way through hurricane season!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

One wonders at what point people in power realize that the extremes in our weather are getting more common due to what we have done, and continue to do to our global environment??? After this realization needs to come some action.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I think this week's Economist has a cover worth a thousand words or so on that subject Dr. G



















> *The oiloholics*
> Aug 25th 2005
> 
> 
> ...


:clap:


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Read somewhere that old George may still be on the sauce....


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> One wonders at what point people in power realize that the extremes in our weather are getting more common due to what we have done, and continue to do to our global environment??? After this realization needs to come some action.


Dr. G. With reference to your post I hope it wasn't intended as a rhetorical question. 

I once had the opportunity to ask Environment Canada's Weather guru David Phillips on a CBC radio phone in show a question about climate change. Phillips put on the skates and did not answer the question asked. He basically he said climate is what you expect and weather is what you get and it is a very difficult question. 

The question I have is when would one determine the start point for climate change be measured from? What is the period is it over 100 years or a 1000 years or longer? Who would make the call ie. an authority figure like the UN or a collection of governments (agencies) or the just the rest of us? 

Anyone have any thoughts or info with regard to how the call is/will be made (what is criteria) for climate change?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> NASA-led scientists say ocean data ties manmade emissions to warmer Earth
> 
> Researchers led by NASA’s James Hansen used the improved data to calculate the oceans’ heat content and the global “energy imbalance.” They found that for every square meter of surface area, the planet is absorbing almost one watt more of the sun’s energy than it is radiating back to space as heat — a historically large imbalance. Such absorbed energy will steadily warm the atmosphere.
> 
> ...


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7665636/

The long term trend based on this


> studies of the past million years indicate a repeatable cycle of Earth's climate going from warm periods ('interglacial', as we are experiencing now) to glacial conditions. The period of these shifts are related to changes in the tilt of Earth's rotational axis (41,000 years), changes in the orientation of Earth's elliptical orbit around the sun, called the 'precession of the equinoxes' (23,000 years), and to changes in the shape (more round or less round) of the elliptical orbit (100,000 years).
> 
> The theory that orbital shifts caused the waxing and waning of ice ages was first pointed out by James Croll in the 19th Century and developed more fully by Milutin Milankovitch in 1938. Ice age conditions generally occur when all of the above conspire to create a minimum of summer sunlight on the arctic regions of the earth, although the Ice Age cycle is global in nature and occurs in phase in both hemispheres. It profoundly affects distribution of ice over lands and ocean, atmospheric temperatures and circulation, and ocean temperatures and circulation at the surface and at great depth.


indicates we should be in a slight cooling trend as the planet heads towards a large scale ice age but there are some real complicating factors around tipping points in the climate based on ocean currents so warming could trigger a "little ice age" in Europe in particular.

Bottom line we keep pumping energy in and it will bust out in unexpected directions as with increasingly powerful hurricanes ( they are effectively heat pumps for the planet moving heat toward the polls. ).

It's the incredibly quickl changes in sea life and animal migrations and wintering habits that provide the clearest indicators of accelerating warming.

http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/nacc/education/alaska/ak-edu-4.htm

There is a ton here

http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-1428

and for Canada









http://www.naturewatch.ca/english/icewatch/



> Many scientists around the world have studied the freezing and thawing of ice on freshwater lakes and are concluding that the climate is indeed warming. Dr. John Magnuson, who was the lead author of an Ice Phenology study and recently published in the respected journal 'Science', was quoted in the Toronto Star newspaper:* "The results of the study, said Magnuson, "are not calculations," which are subject to bias and instrument error, but "direct human observations of a 150-year trend of ice freeze and thaw" that are difficult to refute.* "It is clearly getting warmer in the Northern Hemisphere," he said. "This is very strong evidence of a general warming from 1845 to 1995 in areas where there is ice cover." (Toronto Star, Sept. 8, 2000)
> 
> Seasonal differences in the ice cover of lakes and rivers can have a serious impact on Canadian ecosystems. For example, changes in the migration patterns and breeding seasons of birds, food supplies for fish and mammals, water temperature and water chemistry, can occur. Ice cover also affects national trade, transportation, outdoor recreation, and tourism.


The nations together did a reasonable job of dealing with the incredible threat of ozone loss....the jury is out on how well the nations will deal with this. 
So far????...... 

••••

The real question is manmade climate change so really it only impacts ince the industrial revolution starting in the mid 1800s when significant amounts of fossil fuel started to be burned and population of the planet soared.

There are of course long cycle climate changes based on the factors mentioned - but only we can change the "about to be castrophic" rise in a short time due to fossil fuel use.
The outside range is 10 degrees in 100 years.
The last time that happened ( due to volcanism releasing CO2 worldwide ) it was an 11+ degree rise and 98% of the life on the planet died out....and that was over 100s of thousands of years.
100 years.....???? 

Carbon sequestering is real strong hope....
http://www.climatetechnology.gov/library/2003/currentactivities/sequester.htm

but we'll need both dramatic reductions and perhaps extensive sequestering to keep the heat in control.

lots here

http://www.google.com/Top/Science/Environment/Global_Change/Carbon_Management/

This is a very interesting "double whammy"

http://www.eprida.com/hydro/


----------



## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Oh...here we go again...

"Let's all work VERY hard to reduce emisions and therefore to reduce the overall global temperature!!"  


Yeah, Mikey...like we could actually DO that! While half of ALL the world's population (mostly in India and China) is busily pollouting up a storm without ANY sort of emissions regulations at all, while industrialising their formerly socialist societies at a furious rate! With no end in sight, BTW.

Good luck on THAT!  

Sit down and eat your cheerios. And don't bother the adults with your whining...okay?

We got stuff to DO!


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Wow 30 dead in ONE apartment complex in Biloxi 

Wow some of the CNN reporters are realllllly reallly upset as they cover the destruction.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Hmm interesting change for Macnutt - NOW he acknowledges that humans ARE affecting the climate........maybe there are few neurons still firing correctly. Last time he was in complete denial......ala NeoCon dogma.

Yes it CAN be changed just as ozone was. But not by hand wringing idiots pointing fingers elsewhere. 

Lucky you weren't born Dutch..they'd fling you by the seat of your short pants out in the North Sea for saying "no we can't ".


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Hmm interesting change for Macnutt - NOW he acknowledges that humans ARE affecting the climate........maybe there are few neurons still firing correctly. Last time he was in complete denial......ala NeoCon dogma.
> 
> Yes it CAN be changed just as ozone was. But not by hand wringing idiots pointing fingers elsewhere.
> 
> Lucky you weren't born Dutch..they'd fling you by the seat of your short pants out in the North Sea for saying "no we can't ".


More likely misfiring due to lubrication from all that single malt he use's to ward off the evils of milk... I suspect that like a weather vane, his stance will change...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Hmm interesting change for Macnutt - NOW he acknowledges that humans ARE affecting the climate........maybe there are few neurons still firing correctly. Last time he was in complete denial......ala NeoCon dogma.
> 
> Yes it CAN be changed just as ozone was. But not by hand wringing idiots pointing fingers elsewhere.
> 
> Lucky you weren't born Dutch..they'd fling you by the seat of your short pants out in the North Sea for saying "no we can't ".


For about the last three and a half years here at ehmac, I have had EXACTLY the same stance on so-called "global warming".

Whoops! Hang on a sec...they've now changed it to "Global climate change"


QUESTION)-"Climate Change" (formerly known as "Global Warming") is the natural state for this particular planet. This is well established in the geological record. It's in the very rocks beneath your feet. Sometimes very rapid and RADICAL climate change. Almost ALL of this radical and VERY rapid planetary climate change happened well before we humans ever walked on the face of this planet. Certainly before we could have affected it's climate in any real way shape or form. 

Soo...what makes you think that THIS change is actually of OUR doing? And how in the HECK do you think we can alter this climate change one single iota?

ESPECIALLY when more than half of the population is pumping crap into the air and water without any controls or regulations at all? At an accellerating pace?

Is this just a natural cycle? One that we haven't been around long enough to measuer accurately yet? Or is it actually human-driven (that would be the first for this mudball, BTW).

AND...can less than half of we humans manage to limit this might-be-human, might-be-natural climate change...that MIGHT be happening, or might NOT...when more than HALF of us are not actually participating in the "limiting of polloutants?"

If so..HOW?

Please explain your position on this question. In detail. (bet you CAN'T)


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Wow, another MacNutt souflé....
A meteor is a pretty big climatic change, specially when it kills off most living things.
The difference is that is was a natural occurrence, not something caused by man...

..."half of the population is pumping crap into the air", so does that mean that you think we are affecting the climate or not? Or will you not answer a direct question.
KNOW YOU CAN'T


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Wow, another MacNutt souflé....
> A meteor is a pretty big climatic change, specially when it kills off most living things.
> The difference is that is was a natural occurrence, not something caused by man...
> 
> ...


As someone who spent several decades drilling deep into the eath's crust...and analyzing the results to a very fine degree...

I find your "meteor" comments to be very illuminating. A "meteor" is a spatial rogue body of less than planetary size that neveractually strikes the earth's surface. A "meteor" that strikes the earth's surface is known as a "meterorite".

I think you might actually be thinking of an "asteroid". Which is rather a larger spatial rogue body (defined as something not captured by a gravity field and then confined to a set orbit around a larger spatial body).

I'm sure that the Discovery Channel has you convinced that the only sudden climate changes that the earth has ever experienced were as a result of that one giant asteroid strike which supposedly killed off all of the dinosaurs about 65 million years ago, or so...

Too funny.
 

A bit of remedial schooling might be in order here.....

To say the LEAST!


----------



## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

Damn, I've got a tear running down my face... just now on CNN they showed a man wandering around with 2 young boys. He told about how his house broke apart, they were on the roof due to the rising water, and his wife was washed away. He held onto her as long as he could, but she told him to take care of the kids and to let her go. The reporter is in tears too. So very sad.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

It's just so sad, to try to even imagine the fear and loss and devestation these people are feeling right now.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

So MacNutt, you are saying the we shouldn't bother to cut down on our emmissions and the "unnatural" pollutions that we are causing and at least "try" to slow down global warming, that we should not care and just continue to do what we want and to hell with the consequences? I think the consequences are far too final to do that.

As humans, and I hope decent human beings I would hope that all of us would try to do our part. I am saying this knowing that I am not going to give up driving my car as it is a necessity - but I do keep the maintenance up on the car and if or when they come out with a car that doen't pollute I would certain drive one of those. The oil companies would never allow that to happen though would they.

I don't think it is a subject we can ignore or push under the blankets. We all feel so badly about those people suffering through the hurricanes and then we aren't going to do anything to prevent a disaster - not a natural one at that - and there won't be anyone left to feel sorry for us.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Cameo, I agree with your contention that we ALL need to start thinking about and doing something about this situation. We all need to challenge ourselves to stop using as much energy, from various sources, as possible. We can all recycle, reduce and reuse aspects of our environment to show that we respect and value all that we have.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacNutt said:


> As someone who spent several decades drilling deep into the eath's crust...and analyzing the results to a very fine degree...


That's right, I forgot, looking for oil makes you a geological expert on climate change....
My excuses Dr. MacNutt....


----------



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

gwillikers, I just saw that CNN clip and I am all choked up. That poor man looked so lost and bewildered. I hope to God that by some miracle his wife made it out of the flood alive.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

gwillikers said:


> Damn, I've got a tear running down my face... just now on CNN they showed a man wandering around with 2 young boys. He told about how his house broke apart, they were on the roof due to the rising water, and his wife was washed away. He held onto her as long as he could, but she told him to take care of the kids and to let her go. The reporter is in tears too. So very sad.


Stories like this are heart-wrenching.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

That would be terrible to loose someone in this tradgedy. I also feel sorry for the people who left there stores and property behind. I couldn't imagine what it would feel like if you had been robbed blind. All those people looting is not cool.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

This has NOTHING to do with long cycle climate shift or geology - the usual bull**** pseudo science from SSI.
Just put him on ignore - he understands nothing. Remember this was the guy predicting a NeoCon sweep . Tequila fumes.

•••

Dr. G if we do a combination of lowering our energy footprint AND reducing population by as much as 90% the planet MIGHT be a sustainable home for an advanced human civilization as well as a vibrant biodiversity.

The kind of storm we just witnessed is the planet's climate system addressing the higher heat inputs....and it will only get worse as the level of energy transferred increases.
The Arctic is getting hammered as the increased heat is pumped north so while the overall average is going up it's far worse in certain locales and what scientists don;t know is where the "tipping points" are that create havoc suddenly in ecosystems and the energy transfers in systems like the Atlantic conveyor.
Over 60% of all the tropical reefs were killed in 1997 by heat - reefs that had endured for 10's of thousands of years.

Sustainable is only achievable with way less of us using way less resources.

Katrina is Ma nature batting last. And as the consequences start to show now - the human cost and environmental costs are horrible.

I can't imagine what those chemical plants spewed into the Gulf ecosystem as they were overwhelmed by water.
The storm surge in Gulf Port was upwards of 25' with waves to 33' above normal and that area of the gulf is loaded with chemical plants and refineries.

and it's early in the season and it's going to get worse ...



> *Global warming is fueling nastier storms, expert says*
> By Dan Vergano, USA TODAY
> Posted 7/31/2005 1:30 PM Updated 8/1/2005 11:33 AM
> 
> ...


A good analysis of the consequences here

http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publications/warming_earth/potential_outcome.htm

But then West Nile virus moving north is just a "natural" cycle......what a crock.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Clockwork, I can't imagine having to make that choice. I still REALLY hope that by some miracle she survived.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, I am all for a sustainable world population. Population control needs to be a priority, or else more and more people will be needing/wanting more and more resources.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I remember reading somewhere, I think it was the National geographic which I find excelent regarding nature issues. If everyone was to live like the US and use as much resourses and energy we would need three earths. 

How would you go about controling the population. You could limit babies to one per couple, like the Chinese. This would and does cause more abortions murders etc when many Chinese couples don't have boys. I think people may also see it as a violation of personal freedom and rights. Maybe I am way off track to what you guys are thinking though. If limiting babies is the ideology, why should the young generation have to sacrifice are rights.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Clockwork, therein lies the dilemma. Who is to establish the rules and regulations re population control, and how is it to be inforced? I am not sure if this situation shall ever be easily decided upon, and I am amazed that China has been able to implement this regulation for as long as it has. Still, I personally try to do what I can to reduce, reuse, recyle, and remember what it means to re-value our Earth.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

I don't think that population control is the answer. North America needs to think of more efficient methods of transportation, manufacturing etc. Given our large landmass this can and will be quite difficult, but if achieved will have excellent benefits for our enviroment.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Andrew, what might you say to someone who lives way outside of a city and drives a big SUV or souped up fancy pickup truck to work each day? This to me is a totally inefficient waste of resources, in that a small gas-efficient car to carry one person to and from work makes more sense. Still, I have had this arguement with various people and everything I suggest falls upon deaf ears.

Please note, I agree with the points you have just made in your posting.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

Thats why the gas prices are so damed high. Too much waste of fuel. We need to adopt the English way and drive small compact cars. A van is good if you have kids but I fail to see the point for everyday drivers. I guess being communist has its good points when you can control the population. Either restrict to one child or off with your head  I think I'll keep my head thanks.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Lol, true. This goes further than just driving a small car. I think acquring smaller cars is only the tip of the iceberg with this issue. Adopting more efficient manufacturing methods would help a lot aswell.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> Andrew, what might you say to someone who lives way outside of a city and drives a big SUV or souped up fancy pickup truck to work each day? This to me is a totally inefficient waste of resources, in that a small gas-efficient car to carry one person to and from work makes more sense. Still, I have had this arguement with various people and everything I suggest falls upon deaf ears.
> 
> Please note, I agree with the points you have just made in your posting.


Sometimes a big SUV is necessary out in the boonies, just for winter.... Country roads are almost always last on the list to be plowed and you can get massive snow drifts even if its not snowing. Sometimes a more powerful SUV is the only way to make it into the city. I totally agree with you in the sense that "if you don't need it, don't buy it."


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

AE is correct. Out where i live, if yout not in a big 4x4 in the winter, your effed.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

This is a good solution for that situation. I really like the groundswell of support from grass roots. :clap:

http://www.terrapass.com/faq.html


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

andrewenterprise said:


> Sometimes a big SUV is necessary out in the boonies, just for winter.... Country roads are almost always last on the list to be plowed and you can get massive snow drifts even if its not snowing. Sometimes a more powerful SUV is the only way to make it into the city. I totally agree with you in the sense that "if you don't need it, don't buy it."


.

I wonder how many SUV/ 4x4 have 4 cylinder engines. Out in the deep snow of the country why do the BIG SUV / 4x4 need huge horse power? 

We shall see when Chrysler starts to market diesel powered Libertys how many of the BIG SUV /4x4 people flock to a more efficient engine in "BIG SNOW COUNTRY."


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

I remember being in Florida during Andrew and I wonder now if Americans will reduce the tariff on the soft wood lumber they will need?


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

BigDL said:


> .
> 
> I wonder how many SUV/ 4x4 have 4 cylinder engines. Out in the deep snow of the country why do the BIG SUV / 4x4 need huge horse power?
> 
> We shall see when Chrysler starts to market diesel powered Libertys how many of the BIG SUV /4x4 people flock to a more efficient engine in "BIG SNOW COUNTRY."


Try towing two snowmobiles on an enclosed trailer in 3 feet of snow with a 4 cylinder engine.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You guys are dreaming - the niceties of arguing human desires - Mother nature in one way or another will reduce our population. Either we manage it, or any combination of plague, famine and loss of resources will do it for us.

Rwanda went one direction , ( the first real Malthusian episode ) and Japan ( and Europe and Canada ) has gone another with kids simply choosing NOT to procreate for any variety of reasons.

IF we can educate and provide family planning for the wider population then maybe we can cruise over the 9 billion population hump and back down slowly to a billion or so which is sustainable if we are wise.

Providing the means and education for populations to control their fecundity and fighting the ignorance or institutions like the Catholic church and others in this matter is what everyone can do.
Supporting sustainable efforts and lowering energy footprint.
Supporting efforts like this
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/trans.html
by buying their products 

http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/concept.htm



> Sustainable agriculture integrates three main goals--environmental health, economic profitability, and social and economic equity. A variety of philosophies, policies and practices have contributed to these goals. People in many different capacities, from farmers to consumers, have shared this vision and contributed to it. Despite the diversity of people and perspectives, the following themes commonly weave through definitions of sustainable agriculture.
> 
> *Sustainability rests on the principle that we must meet the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. Therefore, stewardship of both natural and human resources is of prime importance.* Stewardship of human resources includes consideration of social responsibilities such as working and living conditions of laborers, the needs of rural communities, and consumer health and safety both in the present and the future. Stewardship of land and natural resources involves maintaining or enhancing this vital resource base for the long term.


There ARE people doing wonderful things - support them and fight the dogmatic nonsense and pseudoscience and wishful thinking.

One life boat - no alternate planet - we do this right or we'll be short chapter in the planet's history ;(


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## cheshire_cat (Aug 28, 2005)

I feel so bad for New Orleans and the surrounding states  

Toronto is supposed to get a little of it. Call me crazy but I've always loved a good rain storm.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

*
*
*
katrina photos
*
*
*


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Good photo's. I feel bad for the people down there but i feel no remorse for the looters breaking into grocery stores to steal booze-they are just making the situation worse.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I see this and it really affirms my support for SAR and Coast Guard spending over 'war weapons" in Canada.
Those guys are doing a terrific job :clap:

With climate change and people living in risk areas we're going to see many more of these.
I doubt very much this is a once in a 100 year event - more likely a annual or more event. 

The scale of this is incredible 

For once CNN does not have to magnify the news - it's too big to grapple with.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

cheshire_cat said:


> I feel so bad for New Orleans and the surrounding states
> 
> Toronto is supposed to get a little of it. Call me crazy but I've always loved a good rain storm.


Per your request consider yourself called "Your Crazy."  

Are now comfy?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

comprehab said:


> I feel no remorse for the looters breaking into grocery stores to steal booze-they are just making the situation worse.


It will get worse before it gets better. Poverty is a big problem down there, this is only a symptom of it. And, more likely than not, the less favoured had to stay in the city...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

CC, rain when it is needed, and does not cause damage other than getting people wet, is fine. I too like a good rain strorm. I have to admit that I never saw rain until I taught in Waycross, Georgia.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I am not saying it is right, but I can understand people going after whatever food they can find to feed their families as these are people who probably couldn't leave the city, had no where to go or too poor. Booze is not a necessity and if they are looting only cause they can get away with it then they should be punished just as if nothing had happened.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Cameo, we are in TOTAL agreement re the idea of looting. I have only seen looting up close once, and it was NOT a pretty sight.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

scary.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Cameo, it was more than scary. Imagine, three white teenagers in Harlem during a hot summer's day race riot................and we were on bikes. Amazingly, no one bothered us............and we headed back to the Triborough Bridge and back to Queens, NY, where we lived.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Cameo said:


> I am not saying it is right, but I can understand people going after whatever food they can find to feed their families as these are people who probably couldn't leave the city, had no where to go or too poor. Booze is not a necessity and if they are looting only cause they can get away with it then they should be punished just as if nothing had happened.


Food is one thing, all the pictures show them with big smiles on their faces and boxes of beer....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

This sort of looting is looting at its worst.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Indeed, it is.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Comprehab, actually looting for things like TV's is the worst kind of looting, at least in my opinion.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

I say stop the looting where and when you can but many of them have just survived one the worst natural disasters and don't know when normalcy will return. They have no where to go, the shelters they have set up have horrible conditions, no electricity, no news, no food, houses gone, maybe lost family members. I would be having a drink just about now...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

New Orleans is just plain drowning and looting is the least of the problems.
Those levees are collapsing and the water is rising steadily. 

There is only one way in and out of the city still open.

Someone in the Superdome committed suicide by jumping. I can't believe how deep some of the areas are - 20 feet plus of water.

One of the major FEMA officers thinks this is the worst natural disaster to hit the US. I have to agree.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> New Orleans is just plain drowning and looting is the least of the problems.
> Those levees are collapsing and the water is rising steadily.


NOLA has always lived under the fear of flooding - its subsidence has been a well known problem. People have been warning for years (well almost centuries)...
And it has finally happened....


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

"Food is one thing, all the pictures show them with big smiles on their faces and boxes of beer...."

Exactly - and that is the part I have trouble understanding. MacDoc is correct in that looting is the least of their problems, most stuff is ruined anyhow I am sure, but it galls me that some people just don't have an issue taking advantage of situations in a "nasty" way.

"but many of them have just survived one the worst natural disasters and don't know when normalcy will return. They have no where to go, the shelters they have set up have horrible conditions, no electricity, no news, no food, houses gone, maybe lost family members."

I agree, and for food I don't have an issue..........booze and other peoples property........that is just theft.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, when I read about the 20 foot levels in some parts of NO, I measured off some rope and dropped it outside of my son's window. It hit the ground with a few feet to spare. This was truly shocking to me to even try to imagine. I saw how Waycross, Georgia was flooded for a day or so when 4 inches of rain fell in a 24 hour period. But this!!!!!!!!!!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Authorities say now 80% of the city is under water and the water is still rising. They are considering evacuating EVERYONE!!! Two levees are broken.

One commentator just mentioned there are SIX WEEKS left in hurricane season. What would happen with another hurricane anywhere in the northern gulf 



> SATELLITE IMAGES INDICATE THAT THE AREA OF LOW PRESSURE LOCATED
> ABOUT 1550 MILES EAST OF THE LESSER ANTILLES HAS CHANGED LITTLE IN
> ORGANIZATION THIS MORNING. UPPER-LEVEL WINDS DO NOT APPEAR TO BE
> FAVORABLE FOR A SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT AT THIS TIME. HOWEVER...
> ...


Look at that concentration on the right.










That's maybe 10 days away.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, that is almost unthinkable to consider another hurricane of any size to hit over this area.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Oh my God, those poor people.........totally at a loss for words now.
I know what it is to struggle, as do many of us, but to lose everything and then not to have anywhere to go.......boggles the mind. Kind of beyond
comprehension..


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Cameo, I am hopeful that the people of the USA will be as generous in sending aid donations to NO as they have been to other foreign disaster areas. We shall see.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Dr. G - not so unthinkable. These are the historical storm tracks* just for Mississippi and just for September.*










http://hurricane.csc.noaa.gov/hurricanes/viewer.html

If you added in the other states nearby - ........!!!!!

Dr. G the scariest part - this note



> Hurricane Track Over 100 matching attribute records found. Only 100 can be displayed at a time.


.

There were MORE hurricanes in Sept for Mississippi than the map could show.!!!


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> NOLA has always lived under the fear of flooding - its subsidence has been a well know problem. People have been warning for years (well almost centuries)...
> And it has finally happened....


The French Quarter is relatively undamaged. It's the oldest part of the city and has some of the oldest buildings. But, its also on the highest ground. History lesson? For all of our technology and infrastructure, nothing, nothing can face a natural disaster such as a storm surge.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

I was reading a report dated 9/11/2001 about the great danger with the levees in NO.

Apparently three major catastrophes were predicted some time ago as well

1. Major earthquake striking San Francisco, causing massive damage
2. Terrorist attack in New York
3. Hurricane breaking levees and flooding NO.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I sure hope those living today continue to do so for some time. This is going to be one heck of a clean-up required... and will require some major planning to ensure it does not happen again.

I think only 3 billion was raised for the victims of the tsunami, which affected a much larger bunch of people.

I think the estimates I've read early this morning, is that this will cost 26 billion to clean up, and since flooding has continued today, I'd expect that figure to go up much more.

Sad day.

Another article from Dec 2001
http://www.hurricane.lsu.edu/_in_the_news/houston.htm


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's Gulfport that really got physically damaged.





































More photos here http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Long Beach looks even worse.  First pictures are just coming in on CNN. Alderman says the first 3 blocks are entirely leveled. He says "no structure standing".

http://www.wlox.com/Global/category.asp?C=69327










This is the best gallery I've seen so far - 110 photos.


















Yeah that's an oil rig. 

and the Interstate I-10


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

This in from Reuters 



> Hundreds feared dead on storm-ravaged U.S. coast
> 30 Aug 2005 20:23:08 GMT
> Source: Reuters
> 
> ...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Reports of shootings, carjackings and looting in the area near the Louisiana Superdome, New Orleans, a policeman tells CNN.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

There have been quite a few shocking eye witness accounts, but the most shocking one I have seen has been that of Harvey Jackson, who lost his wife due to the rising waters. 

Even after the storm has passed, waters continue to rise as the levees cannot hold back the water from Lake Pontchartrain.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Think about how bad it COULD have been if this had not occurred.



> *A gust of air cools a monster's wrath, just in time*
> 06:27 PM CDT on Tuesday, August 30, 2005
> By MATT CRENSON / AP National Writer
> In terms of economic damage and lives lost, Katrina may turn out to be one of the worst hurricanes in U.S. history.
> ...


----------



## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Scary. Its hard to think that it could be MUCH worse than it is down there now.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The attempt to plug one of the levees for New Orleans has failed and water is beginning to rise again - looking at depths of 15'.










••••



> uesday, 8:10 p.m.
> 
> By Ed Anderson and Jan Moller
> 
> ...


West Nile is a threat to those sitting out waiting for rescue.
A Louisiana official estimates there will be 1 MILLION people homeless for an extended period and the need to build a refugee camp with that in mind.

This is the most complete photo gallery I've seen for the City of New Orleans. The water depths are incredible and still rising 

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/photos/

Katrina is just start to drip Gulf waters on my roof.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Atlantis!


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

andrewenterprise said:


> There have been quite a few shocking eye witness accounts, but the most shocking one I have seen has been that of Harvey Jackson, who lost his wife due to the rising waters.
> 
> Even after the storm has passed, waters continue to rise as the levees cannot hold back the water from Lake Pontchartrain.


I feel so bad for this man. Three times I've watched the interview, and three times I've welled up.

Two other women from Biloxi were interviewed on NBC Nightly news. One was obviously not well off, but content so long as she had her son's pet rock (?)



And on the other end of the fence...
The other was a woman, 40ish... shown for over a minute, much the same, not well off, but hanging a flag from a tree... all the while, WEARING A TOM MILFIGGER T-shirt. Classy.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

jicon, I have not been able to go back to see that clip of the man who had to let go of his wife to save his children. It is a devastating piece of videography.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Man Katrina is dripping on us quite actively ( it's lovely right now ) yet it's still in the mid states 








what a monster.!!!!!

Y'know this nasty beast is going to trackright down the length of Lake Erie whose surface temps run in the 80s this time of year - that's quite enough to give the old girl quite a boost.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

andrewenterprise said:


> There have been quite a few shocking eye witness accounts, but the most shocking one I have seen has been that of Harvey Jackson, who lost his wife due to the rising waters.


I realize that there are many tragedies associated with this storm, but I just can't get past that brief CNN clip. I've been carrying it around in my head all day. I want to help, I want to make it "not so". It frustrates me somehow. I don't want people to have to hurt like that.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

GW, you have expressed exactly how I feel. I have been feeling rotten about my own troubles lately, and now I know they are petty feelings as they are as nothing compared to what these poor people are going through. If I had a wish for today I would wish Katrina never happened.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

gw, I too echo your sentiments re "I realize that there are many tragedies associated with this storm, but I just can't get past that brief CNN clip. I've been carrying it around in my head all day. I want to help, I want to make it "not so". It frustrates me somehow. I don't want people to have to hurt like that." I saw that clip again on the news last night, and even my 18 year old son was silent.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

Very frustrating feeling. If it was only a house lost, well... I'm sure aide, and perhaps a visit on Oprah would fix it all up in time.

But this guy and his children lost his wife. It makes me appreciate what I have... but no one should suffer what he's gone thru.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

jicon, I don't know how he was able to make that choice. I guess I would have made the same decision, but looking at that clip you could see the total sense of loss and bewilderment in his eyes and hear it in his voice. It keeps bringing me to tears every time I see this clip.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

i don't know if anyone posted this yet, but there's some good info, photos, and stories on this site:

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrina/


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

No, it hasn't been posted yet. Thanks for the link Miguel.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

"Sitting on a black barrel amid the muck and stench near the St. Claude Avenue bridge, 52-year-old Daniel Weber broke into a sob, his voice cracking as he recounted how he had watched his wife drown and spent the next 14 hours floating in the polluted flood waters, his only life line a piece of driftwood. "My hands were all cut up from breaking through the window, and I was standing on the fence. I said, 'I'll get on the roof and pull you up,'" he said. "And then we just went under."


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The death toll is soaring 
This could go into the thousands.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Yikes-With proper evacuation and better plans all these deaths could have been avoided. It's sad really.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's incomprehensible......there are ONE MILLION refugees. 

Many who died chose to stay in their homes and ride out the storm.










Looking threatening but the 15 hour image here - shows the potential storms breaking up a bit.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, this is the largest movement of "refugees" in the US since the Dust Bowl era of the 30's with the migration to California.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Unbelievably, there are now reports of sharks in New Orleans. Add that the the list with alligators and snakes.
I also heard a report where the rats are taking over the attics of these mostly submerged homes. Some folks had to fight off hordes of the things and had been badly bitten before being rescued.

This whole thing is a real life horror movie in action.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

adagio said:


> Unbelievably, there are now reports of sharks in New Orleans. Add that the the list with alligators and snakes.
> I also heard a report where the rats are taking over the attics of these mostly submerged homes. Some folks had to fight off hordes of the things and had been badly bitten before being rescued.
> 
> This whole thing is a real life horror movie in action.


Yikes!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"NBC Universal has scheduled "A Concert for Hurricane Relief," a benefit telethon to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina, the company announced in a press release Wednesday.

The hour long show will air Friday on NBC, MSNBC and CNBC."

A grand idea!!!


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Does anyone know what Canada is going to do to help out in the relief efforts? How bout other countries?


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I had wondered about the gaters and snakes as if the swamps are flooded they will travel, but hadn't thought about the rats. Chemicals in the water, the oil and gas whatever else will have an impact on the animal population as well.

geez.............


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

That would be scary, wouldn't wanna be there.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Newfoundland Power and Fortis here in NL have sent down crews to help restore power lines. We did the same for Quebec and Ontario during their ice storms.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I haven't heard of anything specific yet that canada is doing. Hopefully we will contribute something..


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

comprehab, FYI, Newfoundland and Labrador is Canada's 10th province, so someone in Canada IS doing something NOW.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Thank you Dr. G, i am aware of that. I meant to say i hope canada will contribute something significant-like we did with the tsunami. Restoring power lines is great and all but I'm sure canada can do something more than that.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I am sure that Canada shall, in that this is what helps to make us Canada (i.e., our generosity).


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

Indeed


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

I am just kind of shocked that we haven't heard of anyone offering support thus far. It is obviously apparent that help and support is needed RIGHT NOW.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Hopefully, we shall not be forgotten, as we were when Bush thanked all of the nations that helped out during 9/11. Later, he said that he just assumed that we were thanked, because of all we did to help out when the planes HAD to land somewhere. We here in NL were upset when the US Ambassador made amends and thanked all of the Canadian provinces that helped out during this crisis.............all the provinces except Newfoundland and Labrador. Of course, we only had 57% of ALL the Americans that were stranded in Canada here in our province (I opened up my home to a couple and their young child, but the mother was allergic to dogs, and we had three at the time), so I guess we needed to have over 75% to have had some impact. C'est la vie.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

i'm guessing that the federal gov't (ours that is) is waiting for assessment of facts on the ground before rushing in willy-nilly. i'm sure that the u.s. gov't will ask ours for specific items/people such as power restoration crews such as the ones dr g mentioned. 

i'm sure portable generating stations will be on the list and most likely the d.a.r.t. team will be sent down eventually, as they have experience and training in assessing and managing disasters such as this one. they also are very good at getting water filtration stations installed.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Miguel, Newfoundland Power and Fortis offered the services to the State of Louisiana and it was gratefully accepted.


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## comprehab (May 28, 2005)

I would like to see the Canadian government say that they will match all donations made by canadian citizens or something.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/31/news/fortune500/firms_hurricane/index.htm

Here is an initial list of US companies that are coming forth with some form of aid.


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Wow, thats great. I am sure that the list will grow in the days and weeks to come.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

The human spirit is a wonderful thing and a disaster like this only serves to bring out the good in people, countries and corporations alike! :clap:


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I agree, Sinc. Still, I think that it going to take a great deal more than money to get these communities functioning once again. We shall see.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

adagio said:


> Unbelievably, there are now reports of sharks in New Orleans. Add that the the list with alligators and snakes.
> I also heard a report where the rats are taking over the attics of these mostly submerged homes. Some folks had to fight off hordes of the things and had been badly bitten before being rescued.
> 
> This whole thing is a real life horror movie in action.


And don't forget the fireants... They float around in colonies, and rotate... those on top trade spots with those swimming on the bottom... very nasty biters.

From a Newsweek story I read... 

Expect a month to drain the water.
Another month to test soil, and ensure safety.
Electrical system may take up to a year to restore.
The water system needs to be flushed. Likely another month to three months.
Another round of insurance and other folks determining if houses will need to be destroyed or not. Most likely, many will be patched, then rebuilt in a year's time.

That water contains dead animals and human beings, industrial waste (apparently environmental enforcement is very lax in Louisiana), human waste... just bad, bad water that will easily cause infection. And, it has no where safe to go. It's going to have to be pumped in to the Gulf of Mexico. Expect more death and decay along the coast... and some 10 years for those chemicals to dissipate.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

SINC said:


> The human spirit is a wonderful thing and a disaster like this only serves to bring out the good in people, countries and corporations alike! :clap:



It is ironic however that after the Asian Tsunami the world rushed forth with aid for the region. We hear very little of this in regards to this disaster. I was with some of my american peers in NY this week and mentioned this to few of them. They were very gracious in terms of their understanding that they feel pretty much alone in dealing with this problem.

As much as I criticize american foreign policy, I certainly admire americans themselves...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Breaking news from the disaster zone: some idiot, likely wasted on looted booze, is out firing at the evacuation helicopters near the stadium. Officials have shut down the evacuation until they find this lunatic...

<img src="http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050901/050901_superdome2_hmed_6a7.h2.jpg" align="right">


<SMALL><b>CAPTION: Conditions inside and around the Superdome, such as this view Thursday morning, were said to be chaotic, with <u>medics pleading for help to curb people with guns in the area.</u></B></SMALL>


MSNBC Report




<div align="center">
<i><font color="RED">military would not fly out of the Superdome either because of the gunfire and that the National Guard told him that it was sending 100 military police officers to gain control. “That’s not enough,” Zeuschlag. “We need a thousand.” </FONT></i>
</div>

Yup... disasters do seem to bring out <i>something</i> in people...


M


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

There are going to be hundreds, thousands of stories coming out of this tragedy. This one struck me as being valuable in a number of ways. It highlights one of the underlying reasons for the high number of victims: Poverty. People just couldn't afford to leave.

An "evacuation order" is fine and dandy, except when you don't have bus fare, or a car, or ...


> Wednesday, August 31, 2005
> N.O. Inner-city teacher mourns
> 
> Name: Diana Boylston
> ...


There are more stories available from the NOLA Blog homepage


M


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Maybe it shows on other screens as well but the high def screen shows an enormous amount of petroleum slicks in just about every water shot including those where people are wading. 
You can see the slicks flowing from vehicles and buildings and sometimes just over the entire surface.


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## iHalo (Sep 1, 2005)

dam nature, why must we suffer!


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

I guess Canada's help is starting to take shape.

Bob Mann, an aide to the governor, said dozens of law officers are being brought in from around the country and Canada to help stop the looting. Officials said they hope the 4,000 National Guard troops already in New Orleans, who have been engaged in search and rescue, will be available for police actions.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> dam nature, why must we suffer!


Hello??!!!!!! You build a city on the flood plain BELOW sea level of the continents largest watershed where hundreds of hurricanes have hit over time.......THEN heat the planet to provide MORE energy for said hurricanes, AND screw up the delta marsh lands and barrier islands.......

and YOU BLAME NATURE!!!!!!??????

I don't think so.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Maybe it shows on other screens as well but the high def screen shows an enormous amount of petroleum slicks...


I noticed the slicks last evening on the news. Long, long after any biological health hazards & disease outbreaks have been dealt with, they'll still be dealing with oil and industrial contaminants in wreckage, the soil, and water table.


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

Gotta love ironic Google ads...


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

Here's what someone posted on a comics/politics board that I visit:



> Only George W. "Dubya" "Shrub" Bush could start a war to secure cheap oil and then have the price double. I paid $3.49/gallon this morning.
> 
> *Oh, and the Bush administration keeps pushing multi-billion dollar tax cuts yet just last year slashed New Orleans' levee construction and maintenance budget to $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million.*
> 
> George W. Bush let North Korea get the bomb, let Osama bin Laden get away with murder, handed Iraq over to religious extremists and/or terrorists, and saved $25.1M with thousands of dead New Orleanians to show for it. How anyone can call themself a patriot and defend him is absurd.


I questioned why a levee would be a federal matter and he replied:



> All waterways fall under federal jurisdiction. The US Army Corps of Engineers is/was the responsible entity; most of their personnel, funds, and projects have been diverted to Iraq.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sow the wind ..........the whirlwind just arrived........maybe #2 is forming out over the Atlantic.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

Why is it that all i have to say on this matter,
is "that's a shame"

I remember when 9/11 made my heart ache. Today, i just don't care. Sorry. I guess is lots of resentment not allowing me to care.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

gastonbuffet said:


> Why is it that all i have to say on this matter,
> is "that's a shame"
> 
> I remember when 9/11 made my heart ache. Today, i just don't care. Sorry. I guess is lots of resentment not allowing me to care.



It's tough... on 9/11 what was done was perpetrated by other people. This was a natural disaster... but it was an accident waiting to happen, New Orleans as it was should never had existed. It is ludicrous to locate a major metropolitan city next to the ocean and have that city below sea level... it was only a matter of when this was going to happen not if.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Death count now going to be "in the thousands" according to Mayor of NO.

Bush is getting a lot of heat over this.........New Hampshire's *Union Leader* newspaper just roasted him in an editorial and they died in the wool Republican.

CNN said they have had some 600 letters and not one is saying the gov is doing it right.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

The response time is absolutely brutal IMO. They knew for 3 days it was coming and could have had a huge response ready to go. That is, if the armed service weren't all oversees fighting.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The Mayor is going to play Pied Piper and lead the citizens HIMSELF on foot out of New Orleans :clap:


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

If I read one more time in the papers how much money in taxes Mississipi is losing from the lost casinos, I scream.
The first intelligent words came a bit earlier when finally someone wrote that those casinos were providing jobs to 14,000 people in that state. Now I feel for them.

Even though I can't stand Dubya, I hope Canada will provide a huge contribution to this cause, on top of our 5B$ gift on another matter and even though this disaster was bound to happen and will happen again in New Orleans.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

DP004 said:


> If I read one more time in the papers how much money in taxes Mississipi is losing from the lost casinos, I scream.
> The first intelligent words came a bit earlier when finally someone wrote that those casinos were providing jobs to 14,000 people in that state. Now I feel for them.
> 
> Even though I can't stand Dubya, I hope Canada will provide a huge contribution to this cause, on top of our 5B$ gift on another matter and even though this disaster was bound to happen and will happen again in New Orleans.


I say our gift should be Softwood Lumber for rebuilding. There you go!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

iPetie, softwood lumber would be a grand contribution...............unless the US blocks this gift under some NAFTA provision that gifts to the US somehow undercut the US lumber industry.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

*Katrina's Real Name*

I haven't looked at this whole thread, so I apologize if this angle has been discussed or this article previously quoted.


> From the Boston Globe:
> 
> THE HURRICANE that struck Louisiana yesterday was nicknamed Katrina by the National Weather Service. Its real name is global warming. ...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"A rose by any other name...." or, a hurricane by any other name has the potential to be as desructive....


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> iPetie, softwood lumber would be a grand contribution...............unless the US blocks this gift under some NAFTA provision that gifts to the US somehow undercut the US lumber industry.


Well, it would be the ultimate symbolic contribution. It will be badly needed, charitable and the American government would not be able to justify not taking it. Profit off of this disaster, particularly, on the backs of the very poor people of Louisiana and Mississippi, will not go over well.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Put the US gov to shame - tell them Canada waives it's rights to the $5 billion being held IF it's contributed to the hurricane relief.
We'll see what they're made of then.

••••

Anderson Cooper is just about at the end of his emotional rope - lots of waver in his voice and wow is he pissed at the American Gov.

He just lit into one of the politicos for patting each other on the back when people are dying around him.
Honest reporter showing he's human in a horrible situation ( he's been in New Orleans just about from the beginning. )

He' gonna need some R&R after this stint.
He just got a nice boost - a family from New Orleans that had lost their baby and their 97 year old father ( in a nursing home in New Orleans ) since the storm hit - they found BOTH today within an hour of each other. Take about an emotional roller coaster thousands must be going through.

Gave Anderson a visible boost - said it was the best story he's heard today. I think he's a tad overwhelmed......with good cause.

•••••

The contrast between the communities not still under water and New Orleans is incredible.
The rest are getting on with things - New Orleans is sinking into complete chaos


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Fats Domino is still missing somewhere in NO.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Just saw a live report from CNN - the reporter on the ground says he's been told by police (and witnessed) gangs of young men roaming what's left of the city, shooting at people and raping women.

Doesn't take much for civilization to end.....


M


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

There was a map on BBC news showing huge areas of the Gulf of Mexico running at a temperature of over 30 degrees Celsius! This hot water is like adding Cajun spice to a mild storm. It is tragic that the poor and most vulnerable are suffering the most from this disaster.


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## darkscot (Nov 13, 2003)

sickening and infuriating, CubaMark. so many sad stories. 

if our gov't sucked that bad, i like to think they'd be out of jobs the next day.
God save us all


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

what?

i don't have a tv, and pretty much just work and sleep, and don't care much, so pretty much all i know is really bad down there (but i've seen these situations several times before, so it 's not new for me) but i just can't believe raping is happening in NO. if it is, then that society SHOULD be wiped out. There. I said it. If MURDER and RAPE are happening, in a country that has wealth coming out of their wazoo, because of a lot of rain, then what kind of moral authority would this Nation have to police the rest of the world?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

gastonbuffet said:


> what?
> 
> i don't have a tv, and pretty much just work and sleep, and don't care much, so pretty much all i know is really bad down there (but i've seen these situations several times before, so it 's not new for me) but i just can't believe raping is happening in NO. if it is, then that society SHOULD be wiped out. There. I said it. If MURDER and RAPE are happening, in a country that has wealth coming out of their wazoo, because of a lot of rain, then what kind of moral authority would this Nation have to police the rest of the world?


There is a great divide between the rich and the poor in the USA. Part of what is happening is due to that. I did spend a lot of time in NO and the poverty really struck me at the time. It does not excuse murder and rape, but put yourself in their shoes, you are poor, no where to go, never been outside of NOLA and your world has just vanished. In a way, reminiscent of the novel La Peste by Camus...


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Being poor is certainly no excuse for committing crimes against your fellow human beings. But sometimes it is a cause.

That said, there are consequences that occur when those who are the wealthy elite, allow a society to slide into a state of desperation for many of it's citizens. People who have had everything taken from them and have nothing left to lose can become very dangerous when pushed over the edge. A small minority of folks who have been kicked in the teeth their whole lives, left uneducated and unemployed, sometimes have a tougher time acting civilized. Take the economic security blanket away from a lot of wealthier folks and you might find a certain percentage of them don't act really nice either.

Those who choose to give more tax cuts to their rich buddies rather than invest in better infrastructure and emergency preparedness, not to mention attempting to create a better world for the poorer and less fortunate, bear much of the responsibility for the current mess that is occurring in Louisiana.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Did New Orleans Catastrophe have to happen?


> Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA (Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project) dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.
> 
> Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."
> 
> In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.


I assume Louisiana was a red state last November.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

CubaMark said:


> Just saw a live report from CNN - the reporter on the ground says he's been told by police (and witnessed) gangs of young men roaming what's left of the city, shooting at people and raping women.
> 
> Doesn't take much for civilization to end.....
> 
> ...


Same thing happened in the south central area of LA during the Rodney King riots.

Same thing happened during the craziness that was Somalia, during the nineties.

Same thing happened during the recent upheaval in Haiti.

Need I even mention Rwanda?

In some places civilisation is as solid as a rock. People help each other out when things go bad, mostly. Rebuilding begins as soon as the event is over.

In other places...civilisation ALWAYS hangs by a slender thread. And it doesn't take much to sever that slender thread and turn the residents of those areas back into a bunch of barbaric haywires, bent on self-destruction.

Very sad....


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

this guy actually drove down there to film the storm. he's got some amazing video that was featured on city-tv when he got back.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

The fellow mentioned earlier in this thread, who lost his wife, is featured in a follow-up story on CNN: (see "Hardy Jackson's Heartbreak", left column, 1/2 way down the page, on this page).

If it doesn't bring a tear to your eye...


M


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Same thing happened in the south central area of LA during the Rodney King riots.
> 
> Same thing happened during the craziness that was Somalia, during the nineties.
> 
> ...


a MOST revealing choice of illustrative events.....


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

*Mayor to feds: 'Get off your asses'*

i listened to this interview with the n.o. mayor this morning:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html

by the end, i thought he was just going to have a nervous breakdown. he's really not afraid to tell it like it is.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

40% of the New Orleans National Guard is on duty in Iraq. With the violence, loss of basic necessities and infrastructure, these poor guys are going to wonder what the heck happened to their home when they return. On the other hand, their first hand experience with insurgents, widespread poverty and desperation and immense destruction may have prepared them for the enormous task to rebuild. Given that rebuilding will take a decade (assuming no more hurricane hits), I wonder how quickly the plight of the people of NO will be forgotten (as attention shifts to the next celebrity trial or Lacy Peterson-like case)?


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

Republican through and through. Maybe not any longer...

Mel



GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I assume Louisiana was a red state last November.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

No need to worry now, the president has arrived. President Bush met some victims of Hurricane Katrina during his tour of Biloxi, Mississippi and told them to go to the Salvation Army center. God Bless America............God Bless President Bush........and thank God for organizations like the Salvation Army and the Red Cross. This was a photo op of the highest degree. These people need help, not to serve as a backdrop for his pictures.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

On-air editorial from Laura Flanders on her radio show:



> *Two Americas: Sink or Swim*
> 
> Hurricane Katrina is probably the worst disaster to hit our country in over a century. Its waters have covered streets and sidewalks and schools and homes and stores. Perhaps five million people are homeless, without access to healthcare, clean food and water, relief. Katrina’s covered not just one city – New Orleans – but several, and its taken no doubt thousands of lives.
> 
> ...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

GA, hard hitting and accurate if you ask me.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

..thousand words n all.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Still, you cannot fault Bush since he did say "Help in on the way". He forgot to quote John Kerry, but the comment was semantically correct, if not fully truthful. Eventually, even snails get to where they want to go.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I caught a report on Bush's press conference announcing the addition of 7,000 troops to New Orleans. In talking about the failure to respond adequately to the disaster, he made a pointed remark about the STATE and LOCAL government's ineptitude, he specifically avoided mentioning any FEDERAL culpability.

How surprising.

Also, more very disturbing accounts from survivors today on Reuters Alertnet:


> NEW ORLEANS, Sept 3 (Reuters) - People left homeless by Hurricane Katrina told horrific stories of rape, murder and trigger happy guards in two New Orleans centers that were set up as shelters but became places of violence and terror.
> ....
> Several residents of the impromptu shantytown recounted two horrific incidents where those charged with keeping people safe had killed them instead.
> In one, a young man was run down and then shot by a New Orleans police officer, in another a man seeking help was gunned down by a National Guard soldier, witnesses said.
> ...


...there are no words....

M.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

Not sure if anyone posted this video yet, but it's so sad it's almost funny.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Oh man... caught with a cart full of goodies. She is soooo busted. And what a lame excuse, "Looking for looters"! 

So that's why the streets of New Orleans are out of control - the cops are shopping...

M


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> Oh man... caught with a cart full of goodies. She is soooo busted. And what a lame excuse, "Looking for looters"!
> 
> So that's why the streets of New Orleans are out of control - the cops are shopping...
> 
> M


One would think that, surely, those officers will be terminated just from the evidence on that video alone. But maybe not, seeing as there were huge numbers that refused to report for duty at all. Can't just go and fire half the police force. Or can you?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Keep your fingers crossed.



> The atmospheric and oceanic conditions favoring hurricane formation that were predicted in May are now in place. These conditions, combined with the high levels of activity already seen, make an above-normal season nearly certain (95% to 100%). There is only a 0%-5% chance of a near-normal season, and a 0% chance of a below-normal season. (see Background Information for NOAA’s definitions of above-, near-, and below-normal seasons)
> 
> An important measure of the total seasonal activity is NOAA’s Accumulated Cyclone Energy (ACE) index, which accounts for the collective intensity and duration of Atlantic tropical storms and hurricanes during a given hurricane season. The ACE index is also used to define above-, near-, and below-normal hurricane seasons. A value of 117% of the median (Median value is 87.5) corresponds to the lower boundary for an above-normal season.
> 
> ...


that another one or two big guns are not brewing up in the Atlantic. ....but then again


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

miguelsanchez said:


> i listened to this interview with the n.o. mayor this morning:
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/index.html
> 
> by the end, i thought he was just going to have a nervous breakdown. he's really not afraid to tell it like it is.


If you ask me, he's a hypocrite. He could have evacuated his whole city before the disaster even came. Why were there still people in the hospitals and care homes when they asked citizens to evacuate the town. The whole city should have been evacuated and he didn't lift a finger to help. You've got city transit buses I'd assume. Fill them up with those in the hospitals and care homes and get them out of the city. The mayor sat on his ass doing nothing for his citizens.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Kosh, they can't force people to leave. The mayor said this over and over. 
40,000 people without cars and so poor they can't afford a $40 fill up at the gas station. 

Even their right wing apologists are frothing at the mouth.
Fox News reporters Shep Smith and Geraldo Rivera are in New Orleans and are incredulous at the state of affairs they've seen:
Clips from Fox News


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Photo-Op Overrides Relief:

CBS News - Bush photo-op at levy brings equipment, which leaves not long after he does.

Yup.
M


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

ErnstNL said:


> Even their right wing apologists are frothing at the mouth.
> Fox News reporters Shep Smith and Geraldo Rivera are in New Orleans and are incredulous at the state of affairs they've seen:
> Clips from Fox News


Thanks for the clips, ENL.

I didn't realize that they were actually forcing people to stay in NO, with armed guards not allowing them to leave. It sounds like they need to set up a series of large refugee centres, in outlying areas and get those people out ASAP, barring that, they should allow them to just walk out, as Rivera says.

What possible interest could anybody have in allowing this horrific situation to continue?


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Canadians to the rescue:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/national/nationalspecial/04relief.html

Thanks, Canada.
Canada, Merci.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MissGulch said:


> Canadians to the rescue:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/national/nationalspecial/04relief.html
> 
> Thanks, Canada.
> Canada, Merci.


That's what friends are for.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Mayor of New Orleans speaks - mp3

Transcript of New Orleans mayor radio interview


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

*ultra conservative newspaper chides bush's lack lack of action*

when the right wingers get pissed (ya listenin' macnutt?) you know there's trouble
this ain't no michael moore, pinko, commie, tree hugging, left wing wingnut newspaper

New Hampshire Union Leader editorial 

_AS THE EXTENT of Hurricane Katrina’s devastation became clearer on Tuesday — millions without power, tens of thousands homeless, a death toll unknowable because rescue crews can’t reach some regions — President Bush carried on with his plans to speak in San Diego, as if nothing important had happened the day before.

Katrina already is measured as one of the worst storms in American history. And yet, President Bush decided that his plans to commemorate the 60th anniversary of VJ Day with a speech were more pressing than responding to the carnage.

A better leader would have flown straight to the disaster zone and announced the immediate mobilization of every available resource to rescue the stranded, find and bury the dead, and keep the survivors fed, clothed, sheltered and free of disease.

The cool, confident, intuitive leadership Bush exhibited in his first term, particularly in the months immediately following Sept. 11, 2001, has vanished. In its place is a diffident detachment unsuitable for the leader of a nation facing war, natural disaster and economic uncertainty.

Wherever the old George W. Bush went, we sure wish we had him back._


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Canadian Universities Open Doors to NOLA students

That's pretty nice of 'em, don't you think?

M.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

CubaMark said:


> Canadian Universities Open Doors to NOLA students
> 
> That's pretty nice of 'em, don't you think?


Damn straight. Also, the prime minister has sent a convoy of ships to Louisiana.

Touching on another topic, David Brooks, bi-weekly conservative columnist for the NY Times (yes! they exist!) says that a major political shift is on its way. He doesn't know what it will be, but insists it's coming, and Katrina is one of many major catalysts. 

I didn't want to give this article its own thread because it's a Canadian site, and there are so many Americancentric threads already.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MissGulch said:


> Damn straight. Also, the prime minister has sent a convoy of ships to Louisiana.
> 
> Touching on another topic, David Brooks, bi-weekly conservative columnist for the NY Times (yes! they exist!) says that a major political shift is on its way. He doesn't know what it will be, but insists it's coming, and Katrina is one of many major catalysts.
> 
> I didn't want to give this article its own thread because it's a Canadian site, and there are so many Americancentric threads already.


Unfortunately the American media has been asleep as the switch for several years now, the NY Times included.
They sold their souls when they were "in-bedded" with the U.S. military in Iraq.
Where was their outrage then? Pigs at the trough. Pure and simple or is that "fair and balanced?"
The NY Times is no longer a "paper of record."
Look to the 'net for unbiased reporting, cause you ain't gonna find it in mainstream American media.

You get paid to do the dirty deed. Expect people to call you a whore.

I fully expect Ann Coulter to still hate Canada, especially that part that speaks French and Tucker Carlson to still think of us as "Honduras without the good weather."


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

Dubya is to head the inquiry as to what went wrong in Katrina's emergency response.

It can't be more impartial than that.

Let's brace for a constructive and thorough analysis which will prove clearly that this administration can't be blamed for anything.
People just need to buy cars to escape.


----------



## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Well, the media spin and control machine was in full force yesterday. I'm sure by the time all is said and done, Dubya will go into the history books as a hero. I've never seen such a massive turnaround in treatment by the mass media. 

It really makes me wonder sometimes.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Speaking of spin.......cue Jaws









Kat 2


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Sorry if someone has already posted this, but Google Maps has posted a post-Katrina view of New Orleans on its pages for the city. Click the red "Katrina" button to see the before and after pictures.

Chilling.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Here's a very interesting, rather disturbing article from AlterNet on media coverage of Katrina's aftermath...


> "We don't have any substantiated rapes," New Orleans Police superintendent Edwin Compass said Monday, according to the Guardian. "We will investigate if the individuals come forward." The British paper further pointed out that, "While many claim they happened, no witnesses, survivors or survivors' relatives have come forward. Nor has the source for the story of the murdered babies, or indeed their bodies, been found. And while the floor of the convention center toilets were indeed covered in excrement, the Guardian found no corpses."


So.... were people making up the stories in an effort to hurry along the relief effort? Just what did happen at the Superdome?

M.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

The latest release from satirical Flash cartoonist Mark Fioré has been released: Whoopsi Gras. It starts out with his usual biting humour, and the ending... well, if you haven't already seen the clip of Aaron Broussard breaking down on-camera, this one will certainly hit you in the gut...

M


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Mark, that Aaron Broussard clip is heart-breaking. Imagine feeling abandoned by your country in a situation like this one???


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> Imagine feeling abandoned by your country in a situation like this one???


I don't think it's "feeling" as much as WAS abandoned. 
I'm mildly amused at seeing more "human" interest stories about folks going to rescue their pets and hearing Barbara Bush say that the poor are better off now...
Way to go Amerika....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I see your point, AA. I guess it is a matter of perspective. We are looking in, and these people are experiencing the reality of this tragedy every day........and for days and months and years to come. Paix, mon ami.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> The latest release from satirical Flash cartoonist Mark Fioré has been released: Whoopsi Gras. It starts out with his usual biting humour, and the ending... well, if you haven't already seen the clip of Aaron Broussard breaking down on-camera, this one will certainly hit you in the gut...
> 
> M


Wow, that Aaron Broussard segment just knocked me for a loop.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> The most active hurricane season on record occurred in 1933, when 21 systems reached tropical storm status or greater. There have been 15 such storms this year.


.......with many weeks left to go.



> Ophelia keeps north Florida on edge
> 
> Forecasters are unable to predict the path of storm
> 
> ...


At least it's not in the Gulf. Parked like that it just rains and rains and rains.....












> "The primary concern is very heavy rains," hurricane specialist Richard Pasch said. Five to 10 inches were expected over the next few days, with some isolated areas possibly getting 15 inches.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

*Like BushCo., like scammers*

After the Storm, the Swindlers

By TOM ZELLER Jr.
Published: September 8, 2005
Even as millions of Americans rally to make donations to the victims of Hurricane Katrina, the Internet is brimming with swindles, come-ons and opportunistic pandering related to the relief effort in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama. And the frauds are more varied and more numerous than in past disasters, according to law enforcement officials and online watchdog groups.

In Missouri, a much wider constellation of Internet sites - with names like parishdonations.com and katrinafamilies.com - displayed pictures of the flood-ravaged South and drove traffic to a single site, InternetDonations.org, a nonprofit entity with apparent links to white separatist groups.

The registrant of those Web sites was sued by the state of Missouri yesterday for violating state fund-raising law and for "omitting the material fact that the ultimate company behind the defendants' Web sites supports white supremacy."

Late yesterday afternoon, the Federal Bureau of Investigation put the number of Web sites claiming to deal in Katrina information and relief - some legitimate, others not - at "2,300 and rising." Dozens of suspicious sites claiming links to legitimate charities are being investigated by state and federal authorities. Also under investigation are e-mail spam campaigns using the hurricane as a hook to lure victims to reveal credit card numbers to thieves, as well as fake hurricane news sites and e-mail "updates" that carry malicious code aimed at hijacking a victim's computer.

"The numbers are still going up," said Dan Larkin, the chief of the Internet Crime Complaint Center operated by the F.B.I. in West Virginia. He said that the amount of suspicious, disaster-related Web activity was higher than the number of swindles seen online after last year's tsunami in Southeast Asia. "We've got a much higher volume of sites popping up," he said.

The earliest online frauds began to appear within hours of Katrina's passing. "It was so fast it was amazing," said Audri Lanford, co-director of ScamBusters.org, an Internet clearinghouse for information on various forms of online fraud. "The most interesting thing is the scope," she said. "We do get a very good feel for the quantity of scams that are out there, and there's no question that this is huge compared to the tsunami."

By the end of last week, Ms. Landford's group had logged dozens of Katrina-related swindles and spam schemes. The frauds ranged from opportunistic marketing (one spam message offered updates on the post-hurricane situation, with a link that led to a site peddling Viagra) to messages said to be from victims, or families of victims.

"This letter is in request for any help that you can give," reads one crude message that was widely distributed online. "My brother and his family have lost everything they have and come to live with me while they looks for a new job."

Several antivirus software companies have warned of e-mail "hurricane news updates" that lure users to Web sites capable of infecting computers with a virus that allows hackers to gain control of their machines. And numerous swindlers have seeded the Internet with e-mail "phishing" messages that say they are from real relief agencies, taking recipients to what appear to be legitimate Web sites, where credit card information is collected from unwitting victims who think they are donating to hurricane relief.

On Sunday, the Internet security company Websense issued an alert regarding a phishing campaign that lured users to a Web site in Brazil that was made to look like a page operated by the Red Cross. Users who submitted their credit card numbers, expiration dates and personal identification numbers via the Web form were then redirected to the legitimate Red Cross Web site, making the ruse difficult to detect. The security company Sophos warned of a similar phishing campaign on Monday.

"They're tugging at people's heartstrings," said Tom Mazur, a spokesman for the United States Secret Service. Mr. Mazur said there were "a number of instances that we're looking into with this type of fraud, both domestically and overseas," but he would not provide specifics.

The lawsuit filed in Florida last Friday accused Robert E. Moneyhan, a 51-year-old resident of Yulee, Fla., of registering several Katrina-related domain names - including KatrinaHelp.com, KatrinaDonations.com, KatrinaRelief.com and KatrinaReliefFund.com - as early as Aug. 28, even before the hurricane had hit the Louisiana coast.

Mr. Moneyhan did not respond to numerous phone calls and e-mail messages, but the Web site names in question are now owned by ProjectCare.com, a loose collection of Web sites that is using the Katrina sites as an information center for hurricane victims.

Kevin Caruso, the proprietor of ProjectCare.com, said that he had offered to buy the sites from Mr. Moneyhan on Sept. 2, but that Mr. Moneyhan, distressed over the lawsuit, simply donated them to Project Care without charge. Mr. Caruso also said that after several phone conversations, he believed that Mr. Moneyhan, was "trying to help the Hurricane Katrina survivors, but did not have the experience to proceed properly."

The lawsuit, however, states that Mr. Moneyhan had tried to sell his collection of Katrina-related domain names on Sept. 1 "to the highest bidder." The suit seeks $10,000 in civil penalties and restitution for any consumers who might have donated to the Web sites while they were controlled by Mr. Moneyhan.

Jay Nixon, the Missouri attorney general, sued to shut one of the more bizarre fund-raising efforts yesterday. A state circuit court granted a temporary restraining order against Internet Donations Inc., the entity behind a dozen Web sites erected over the last several days purporting to collect donations for victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Also named in the Missouri suit, which seeks monetary penalties from the defendants, is the apparent operator of the donation sites, Frank Weltner, a St. Louis resident and radio talk show personality who operates a Web site called JewWatch.com.

That site - which indexes Adolf Hitler's writings, transcripts of anti-Semitic radio broadcasts and other materials, according to the Anti-Defamation League - attracted headlines last year when it appeared at or near the top of Google search results for the query "Jew." It remains the No. 2 search result today.

Most of Mr. Weltner's Katrina-related Web sites - which include KatrinaFamilies.com, Katrina-Donations.com, and NewOrleansCharities.com - appear to have been registered using DomainsByProxy.com, which masks the identity of a domain registrant.

However, Mr. Weltner's name appeared on public documents obtained through the Web site of the Missouri secretary of state yesterday. Those indicated that Mr. Weltner had incorporated Internet Donations as a nonprofit entity last Friday.

The various Web sites, which use similar imagery and slight variations on the same crude design, all point back to InternetDonations.org. There, visitors interested in donating to the Red Cross, Salvation Army or other relief organizations are told that "we can collect it for you in an easy one-stop location."

It is unclear whether any of the sites successfully drew funds from any donors, or if Mr. Weltner, who did not respond to e-mail messages and could not be reached by phone, had channeled any proceeds to the better-known charities named on his site. But the restraining order issued yesterday enjoins Mr. Weltner and Internet Donations Inc. from, among other things, charitable fund-raising in Missouri, and "concealing, suppressing or omitting" the fact that donations collected were intended "for white victims only."

"It's the lowest of the low when someone solicits funds" this way, Mr. Nixon said in an interview before announcing the lawsuit. "We don't want one more penny from well-meaning donors going through this hater."


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ohh Rita looks like bad news. For sure that will impact oil rigs under repair from Katrina.



















If this turns north ....



> *Mandatory evacuations ordered in Keys as Florida readies for Rita*
> 
> By Michelle Spitzer of the Associated Press
> & Andrew Ryan of sun-sentinel.com
> ...


What happens when the alphabets runs out - there are 6 weeks to go in hurricane season.  There are a couple more brewing in the Atlantic.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

global warming is just "fuzzy math"


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Mixed blessing for Cuba - the eastern end of the island needs rain big time - hopefully it just grazes the island but refills the reservoirs.
It appears they are well mobilized for it in any regard.
We may see a hurricane Aaron at this rate.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

*Harper's Magazine Article*

The Uses of Disaster

Notes on bad weather and good government

Posted on Friday, September 9, 2005. This essay on the relationship between disasters, authority, and our understanding of human nature went to press as Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast. The excerpt below is followed by a postscript, available only on the Web, that specifically addresses the disaster in New Orleans. Originally from a forthcoming issue of Harper's Magazine, October 2005. By Rebecca Solnit.


After the storm, 1865

In his 1961 study, “Disasters and Mental Health: Therapeutic Principles Drawn from Disaster Studies,” sociologist Charles Fritz asks an interesting question: “Why do large-scale disasters produce such mentally healthy conditions?” One of the answers is that a disaster shakes us loose of ordinary time. “In everyday life many human problems stem from people's preoccupation with the past and the future, rather than the present,” Fritz wrote. “Disasters provide a temporary liberation from the worries, inhibitions, and anxieties associated with the past and the future because they force people to concentrate their full attention on immediate moment-to-moment, day-to-day needs.” This shift in awareness, he added, “speeds the process of decision-making” and “facilitates the acceptance of change.”
....

To read the entire article;
http://www.harpers.org/TheUsesOfDisaster.html


.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

There are so many Katrina threads, hard to pick one to resurrect with this update. 

Here's a new article about the continuing failure by the U.S. government to provide support for victims of Hurricane Katrina: Displaced by Katrina and Edged Out of FEMA Trailer Parks

The richest, most powerful country in the world.... sigh.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Could be under the "for your own good" guise...

FEMA, Katrina trailers, cancer | Salon News

Frankly, the way America has handled their own is a reflection about how little the government can and will do for it's own people at home, while they don't seem to have a problem spending money on a war that shouldn't even be taking place.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> There are so many Katrina threads, hard to pick one to resurrect with this update.
> 
> Here's a new article about the continuing failure by the U.S. government to provide support for victims of Hurricane Katrina: Displaced by Katrina and Edged Out of FEMA Trailer Parks
> 
> The richest, most powerful country in the world.... sigh.


Richest? Last time I checked they owed more trillions than I can count on my hands and their citizens are getting evicted daily.

Maybe powerful.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I would suggest that Katrina is an example of what can happen when people depend on their governments to assist them. 

Why count on a bloated, addled uncle with arthritis to help you out when sudden trouble arises? Those likeliest to help are closest to the situation, but they've all given up their responsibilities to ol' Unk in the new, improved centralized system.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I would suggest that Katrina is an example of what can happen when people depend on their governments to assist them.


I respect this view, however as a multiple-hurricane-survivor myself, I disagree.

The Katrina debacle paints a picture of inequality between rich and poor. Too many people dismiss the fiasco as a racial problem (or, as Macfury, a dependency problem), but that was only a modest factor; it's a class problem.

Nawlins is a poor city with only one real industry: Tourism, particularly around Mardi Gras. Apart from a handful of other events (like annual bowl games), that's all you generally ever heard of New Orleans and that region. And when you are poor, you ARE more dependent on the government than middle-class and rich folks. That's nothing to do with a "culture of entitlement" though I'm not saying there aren't people who act/feel like that; I'm saying that tourism has an ugly side, and it is very low wages (ask any Floridian!) and a system that COUNTS on the safety net of government services to fill in where capitalism fails (ask any US Wal-Mart employee in Florida about THAT if you don't believe me).

Katrina was a "perfect storm" of three conditions: a disaster made worse by poverty and corruption, a poor population unable to escape (and in some cases actively _turned away_ by neighbouring white counties!) and finally with a Republican administration that loves power but hates to actually govern, and LOATHES poor Democratic voters, PERIOD FULL STOP.

I went there a year after the storm, ten months after Bush made his promises. His empty words and outright lies were AND REMAIN evident, not just in Nawlins but all along that coast. Any other major American city that had suffered that disaster (and I was not far from Miami when Hurricane Andrew hit, so I can in fact draw direct comparisons) would not have been handled so badly. Simple as that, really.

Many of you will recall that central Florida got hit with three hurricanes the year before Katrina. The first one (Charlie) was the worst but the cumulative effect of all four (the panhandle got hit with one that skipped our area) was roughly the same cost as Katrina.

FEMA was all over the place and completely on the ball in Florida under the leadership of Gov. Jeb Bush (I guess it helps to be the president's brother, eh?). Mississippi did a LOT better than Louisiana thanks to their Republican governor (power player Haley Barbour).

You can argue that Louisiana's state and local governments weren't great and maybe that's true -- but New Orleans' leaders aren't any worse than Miami's I assure you, and yet Miami came out of their multiple hurricanes over the decades just fine thanks. But "coincidentally," the Republican-controlled areas of LA and MS are visibly better off than the Democratically-controlled areas. Funny that.

Ultimately, the US government failed its citizens. It's really just that simple, and inexcusable. I specifically blame the Bush administration because a) the buck never stops with them and b) this would NEVER repeat NEVER have happened under the Gore administration. As many deniers conveniently forget, the government had just the year before run a simulation with (fictional) Hurricane Pamela that SHOWED what eventually happened. I don't think Bush ever even saw it, much less acted on it. And how many times has he acted directly on NO's behalf since 2005? Oh that would be ... zero.

Has he apologised for the trailer debacle? Has anyone? Um ... no.

Are the people there better off than they were three years ago? Hah!

Katrina -- and Bush -- are a national disgrace.

I haven't been in Canada very long, so I could be completely wrong -- but if something of that scale happened in this country (let's say in one of the poorer First Nation communities to make the analogy more accurate), would the Harper government and the citizens of unaffected provinces REALLY be as callous and uncaring as the Bushies? I don't think so.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> I would suggest that Katrina is an example of what can happen when people depend on their governments to assist them


I'd say it has more to do with the quality of the leadership, and the plans (or lack thereof) in place. As an example of excellent state preparedness & response, one need only look at Cuba, which routinely moves between 500,000 and 1.5-million people from the path of storms. Not only people... they also move livestock, personal belongings (catalogued and returned to the owners post-storm).

A poor, developing nation like Cuba can do that. And the USA? ...well....


----------



## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Macfury said:


> I would suggest that Katrina is an example of what can happen when people depend on their governments to assist them.


Even conservatives in the good 'ol USA depend and expect the government to lend a hand during times of emergency. That's what governments are for. Why else have them?

FEMA, the agency in charge of emergency assistance, was well-run and dependable when Clinton was president. It was systematically gutted and left in the hands of incompetent cronies like "Brownie" when Bush took over. Just another facet of the scarred landscape Shrub will leave behind on 01/20/09.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Ex-cop jailed eight years for Katrina shootings*


_(Photo may not represent the specific officer mentioned in this story)_



> Michael Hunter stood quietly as a judge sentenced the former New Orleans Police officer Wednesday to eight years in federal prison for his role in the coverup and deadly shooting of unarmed civilians after hurricane Katrina.
> 
> The sentence by U.S. District Judge Sarah Vance was the maximum allowed plus nine months.
> 
> ...


(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Resurrecting the thread, because injustices should never be forgotten...*

*Policeman 'fired at wounded men' in aftermath of Hurricane Katrina*












> A policeman sprayed gunfire at wounded, unarmed people and repeatedly stamped on a dying man on a bridge in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in 2005, a court heard.
> 
> Michael Hunter, a former officer, told the court in New Orleans that he was shocked when Sgt Kenneth Bowen leaned over a concrete barrier and fired an assault rifle at several people who had been shot by police on Danziger Bridge, less than a week after the hurricane struck.
> 
> ...


(UK Independent)


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

This took a very long time. At least the penalties are appropriate even if the actual charges sound rather lame.



> NEW ORLEANS (AP) — Five former New Orleans police officers were sentenced Wednesday to prison terms ranging from six to 65 years for their roles in deadly shootings of unarmed residents on a bridge after Hurricane Katrina.
> 
> Kenneth Bowen, Robert Gisevius, Anthony Villavaso and Robert Faulcon were convicted of firearms charges in the shootings. Retired Sgt. Arthur "Archie" Kaufman, who was assigned to investigate the shootings, was convicted of helping orchestrate the cover-up.
> 
> ...


5 ex-cops sentenced in Katrina killings case - Yahoo! News


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