# Breaking news: Shooting at Parliament Hill Ottawa



## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

It's all over the news - Parliament under lockdown, gunman still at large.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

CFRA reporting the gunman has been killed.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Ottawa Public Safety Live Audio Feed


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## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

MacGuiver said:


> CFRA reporting the gunman has been killed.


There's only one MP saying that. Nobody seems to confirm it.

Cheers


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

tilt said:


> There's only one MP saying that. Nobody seems to confirm it.
> 
> Cheers


been listening to the live feed.. may sound like two shooters..
one in pursuit on a motor bike travelling at 140/KM/h


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

macintosh doctor said:


> been listening to the live feed.. may sound like two shooters..
> one in pursuit on a motor bike travelling at *140/KM/h*


that's it. I would have thought he would go faster.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Now saying multiple shooters in other parts of the city.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

All OK with you screature?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrGqoISd-do

Some amazing footage of actual shots being exchanged.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Hoping screature, and any other ehMac'ers in Ottawa are okay.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Bit of a scare at first, my niece used to work in the Rideau centre, but she was transferred to another mall.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Really stupid observation by police spokesman @ 19:35:



> Canadian police say the attack "caught us by surprise". *A spokesman said: "If we had known that this was coming we would have been able to disrupt it."*


M'bold.

No $hit, Sherlock...

Very comforting in a time of need.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> All OK with you screature?





Sonal said:


> Hoping screature, and any other ehMac'ers in Ottawa are okay.


Thanks for the concern, but I am fine just in lock down.

We are told not to even open our office door.

Apparently they are starting to evacuate some buildings but we just have to sit tight and wait our turn. Lucky thing for us we have a washroom in our office.

Trouble for me is that even if we get evacuated they have the bridges closed so I can't go home and neither can my wife as she is at work in Ottawa as well.

Depending on how long they keep the bridges closed for I imagine we are going to have a few packages left for us at home by our doggies.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Heartbreaking image....*


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Canada's Coverage of the Ottawa Shootings Put American Cable News to Shame*

The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation today gave a master class in calm, credible breaking news reporting.

Anchored by the unflappable Peter Mansbridge, news of the shootings in Ottawa unfolded live on the CBC much like they do here in the United States: lots of sketchy details, conflicting reports, unreliable witnesses, and a thick fog of confusion. All of that was familiar. What was less familiar was how Mansbridge and his team managed that confusion, conveying a concise and fact-based version of fast-moving events to viewers across Canada and the world.

This live bit of level-headed reporting by Mansbridge, from around 11:10am Wednesday, should be given to journalism students around the country. It basically contains everything you need to know about why CBC did its audience proud:

_MANSBRIDGE:_ And so, the situation is, as we say, tense and unclear. And it's on days like this—we keep reminding you of this and it's important—it's on days like this, where a story takes a number of different pathways, a number of changes occur, and often rumors start in a situation like this. We try to keep them out of our coverage, but when they come, sometimes from official sources, like members of Parliament, you tend to give them some credence. But you carefully weigh it with what we're also witnessing. It's clear that the situation is not over. It is clear the police are in an intense standby situation and continue to be on the lookout, and until somebody blows the all-clear on this we will continue to stay on top of it and watch as the events unfold.​
(MotherJones)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

In fact, all Canadian news media did a much better job of reporting than would American news networks.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

it is confirmed the shooter was an ISIS extremist.. I hope now people wake up and open their eyes .. stop pretending that we don't have a problem.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> *Canada's Coverage of the Ottawa Shootings Put American Cable News to Shame*
> 
> The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation today gave a master class in calm, credible breaking news reporting.
> 
> ...





Macfury said:


> In fact, all Canadian news media did a much better job of reporting than would American news networks.


In our office we were flipping back and forth between CTV and the CBC. IMO they were doing very comparable jobs of reporting.

Still stuck in lock down...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> *it is confirmed the shooter was an ISIS extremist*.. I hope now people wake up and open their eyes .. stop pretending that we don't have a problem.


I have not seen or heard that.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

screature said:


> I have not seen or heard that.


Michael Zehaf-Bibeau: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> it is confirmed the shooter was an ISIS extremist.. I hope now people wake up and open their eyes .. stop pretending that we don't have a problem.



Seems this group would like to be taken seriously. Seems this group needs to be taken out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> Michael Zehaf-Bibeau: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com


It doesn't say he is an ISSI operative it says that the photo was tweeted by an ISSI media account. So nothing definitive there as yet. But it could very well be the case.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Now been here for 12 hours. No end in sight as yet.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Now been here for 12 hours. No end in sight as yet.


CBC is reporting the lockdown on the Hill is ending. Hope that means you'll be able to leave soon.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

screature said:


> It doesn't say he is an ISSI operative it says that the photo was tweeted by an ISSI media account. So nothing definitive there as yet. But it could very well be the case.


He was communicating with the other person who ran over two soilders 
So if you believe he is not, I am deeply bothered by how people living in denial
That there is not an Islamist problem with Isis.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

macintosh doctor said:


> He was communicating with the other person who ran over two soilders
> So if you believe he is not, I am deeply bothered by how people living in denial
> That there is not an Islamist problem with Isis.


*Actually*, the link to Heavy.com provides us with this:

_Military Studies told Heavy.com that the same Twitter account was followed by Martin Couture-Rouleau. On October 20, Rouleau killed a Canadian soldier by hitting him with his car. Rouleau was a recent convert to Islam and told a 911 operator that he performed the act in the name of “Allah.”_​
Insofar as I'm aware, following a twitter account isn't exactly communicating. Perhaps there was communication - but that's not what the page you linked to indicates.

We need facts, not conjecture and supposition.

And a little less of your personal concern with others "living in denial". Condescending, it is.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Ah, just followed that link to "Military Studies". Their source for the "communicating" bit? * Fox News.* _Of course._

https://twitter.com/ArmedResearch


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CBC did nothing more than Global or CTV. The difference is they did it free to the people of Canada, not like the blood sucking tax grab that CBC and Mansbridge have been riding for much too long.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Video of the suspect captured just moments after murdering Cpl. Nathan Cirillo





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yep, all 10 seconds of some guy getting into his car that provides no clear shot of his face. An accidental lucky clip that proves nothing that they claim is somehow relevent?


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

SINC said:


> Yep, all 10 seconds of some guy getting into his car that provides no clear shot of his face. An accidental lucky clip that proves nothing that they claim is somehow relevent?


Well you're right in that perhaps it's not relevant as it won't help anyone catch him because he's (thankfully) dead, but that is 100% the shooter.

Here's why:

1. at the very beginning of the clip, the 7s mark, if you look directly on the right of the frame, you see the cenotaph which is the north part of the War Memorial. The Tomb Of the Unknown Soldier, where Cpl. Cirillo was shot, is just south of that...by mere yards.
Also, in this photo: Cenotaph, War Memorial, Ottawa, Ontario (Ont) Photo - Listings Canada
you'll see the Chateau Laurier on the far right hand side. In the video, that is the building to the left in the background.

2. when the video slo mos him getting into the car, you see him put something which looks like a firearm into the car. I've held firearms that exact way, lifting with one hand. Is it definitive? Perhaps not, but I'd bet money on it.

3. This is the key - that car is the one he left running as he stormed the Parliament Buildings.

Does the clip mean much? Not really although I question one thing - it's pointing East and the Parliament Buildings are slightly West so he must have done a U-turn or something to go back the other way.

Cheers,
Keebler


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

On CBC TV, Reg Murphy's "Point of View" segment was excellent re this tragic event. One of his best in my opinion. Made me even prouder to be a Canadian. Paix, mes amis.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

SINC said:


> CBC did nothing more than Global or CTV. The difference is they did it free to the people of Canada, not like the blood sucking tax grab that CBC and Mansbridge have been riding for much too long.


I didn't give the CBC the satisfaction of a single click. Interestingly, I was following the continually updated news feed on BBC but received the best information from an article on the Daily News from NY.

It's been updated a number of times since I first read it but it had the most info by far when I went searching this morning.


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## skippythebushkangaroo (Nov 28, 2012)

Yep CBC showed why it matters to Canadians. Job well done online, radio and TV in both official languages. Bravo indeed.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep CBC showed why it matters to Canadians. Job well done online, radio and TV in both official languages. Bravo indeed.


What's great is that CBC can do what is relevant to you for less and less money, Skippy. Another round of cuts over the next year and they will be damn near perfect!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

keebler27 said:


> Well you're right in that perhaps it's not relevant as it won't help anyone catch him because he's (thankfully) dead, but that is 100% the shooter.
> 
> Here's why:
> 
> ...


This is the part that I don't get: he left the car running on the front steps and then proceeded to walk into the building. I seem to recall security being there to greet every single person who comes into the building at that front door when I was there in May. Where did the security go? Were they so frazzled by the shooting at the cenotaph (perhaps a diversion) that they left the front door wide open to an intruder? The mind boggles.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep CBC showed why it matters to Canadians. Job well done online, radio and TV in both official languages. Bravo indeed.


I was pleased with their coverage. They did not have the franticness that one sees on CNN when there is a similar tragic event. Paix, mon ami.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Editorial Cartoon | The Chronicle Herald

Lest we forget.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Rex Murphy on the Ottawa shooting - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News

CBC.ca posted the Rex Murphy clip for those who missed it or who want to watch it again. In my opinion, it is well worth the viewing time. Paix, mes amis.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

I am sorry when a event like this happens and all national Canadian tv stations move to regular programming after a few hours of coverage is a complete failure. Who gives a sh$t about Dragons Den on a day like yesterday.

It is a failure.

And I am not talking about in the evening I am talking about like 4 in the afternoon.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Well, well, well...

Suspected killer in Ottawa shootings had a disturbing side



> Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the slain 32-year-old suspected killer of a Canadian Forces soldier near Parliament Hill, was a labourer and small-time criminal – a man who had had a religious awakening and seemed to have become mentally unstable.
> 
> Mr. Zehaf-Bibeau was born in 1982 and was the son of Bulgasem Zehaf, a Quebec businessman who appears to have fought in 2011 in Libya, and Susan Bibeau, the deputy chairperson of a division of Canada’s Immigration and Refugee Board.


More:



> Zehaf-Bibeau, who had a criminal history for drug trafficking in Montreal and robbery in Vancouver, was born in Quebec as Michael Joseph Hall but recently converted to Islam, CBS reported.
> 
> Sources told the Globe and Mail that he had been designated 'high-risk traveler' and government had seized his passport


So, when you can no longer travel outside the the country, you start waging jihad inside your country.

Round 'em all up, send 'em all to Gitmo.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Dr.G. said:


> Rex Murphy on the Ottawa shooting - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News
> 
> CBC.ca posted the Rex Murphy clip for those who missed it or who want to watch it again. In my opinion, it is well worth the viewing time. Paix, mes amis.


he said it well.. 
Islamist extremists are cowards and this is the world we are faced with now..
yet no other islamist state has spoken against the actions of these cowards.. instead full of 
excuses that they are mis-interpreting, mis-representing the religion..enough with the excuses..


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## 18m2 (Nov 24, 2013)

FeXL said:


> So, when you can no longer travel outside the the country, you start waging jihad inside your country.
> 
> Round 'em all up, send 'em all to Gitmo.


Taking the passport away before the suspected jihadist tries to leave Canada is flawed. Why not buy them a ticket to their destination of choice and then cancel their passport.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

18m2 said:


> Taking the passport away before the suspected jihadist tries to leave Canada is flawed. Why not buy them a ticket to their destination of choice and then cancel their passport.


i say tie them to under carriage of cf-18 and when they get over there drop them from the sky and say here you go.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

FeXL said:


> So, when you can no longer travel outside the the country, you start waging jihad inside your country.
> 
> Round 'em all up, send 'em all to Gitmo.





18m2 said:


> Taking the passport away before the suspected jihadist tries to leave Canada is flawed. Why not buy them a ticket to their destination of choice and then cancel their passport.





Joker Eh said:


> i say tie them to under carriage of cf-18 and when they get over there drop them from the sky and say here you go.


Any one or all of these are fine by me.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

18m2 said:


> *Taking the passport away before the suspected jihadist tries to leave Canada is flawed.* Why not buy them a ticket to their destination of choice and then cancel their passport.


I have yet to comprehend the logic in taking away someone's passport who hates the people or the country their in.

Just makes more sense to do what you suggest.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Joker Eh said:


> I have yet to comprehend the logic in taking away someone's passport who hates the people or the country their in.
> 
> Just makes more sense to do what you suggest.


agreed.. let them go.. keeping them, will only encourage what happened in Ottawa..
at least, once they are gone, we can observe them overseas and their contacts.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

SINC said:


> Yep, all 10 seconds of some guy getting into his car that provides no clear shot of his face. An accidental lucky clip that proves nothing that they claim is somehow relevent?


Actually you can see the scarf that he was wearing SINC. I thnk it is pretty clear. As well the car is the same plateless car.


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## 18m2 (Nov 24, 2013)

Descriptive video from the BBC of the shooter's run to the Centre Block

BBC News - Ottawa shootings: Video of Zehaf-Bibeau attack released


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Aome good response from Canadian Muslims:

Canadian Muslim group calls Ottawa attacks "repulsive" | Toronto Star


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Nathan Cirillo's Dogs Wait For Master To Return (PHOTOS)

Sadly, he leaves behind a wife and a young son as well. Such a tragic and senseless loss of a fine person.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Aome good response from Canadian Muslims:
> 
> Canadian Muslim group calls Ottawa attacks "repulsive" | Toronto Star


Indeed.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Dr.G. said:


> Editorial Cartoon | The Chronicle Herald
> 
> Lest we forget.


For those who didn't click to see - Bruce Mackinnon's Editorial Cartoon has been garnering compliments worldwide...










After his powerful artistic response to tragic events in Ottawa, it seemed everyone wanted a piece of Herald cartoonist Bruce MacKinnon on Thursday.

His cartoon was not only trending on Twitter but requests for use of the cartoon came in from CNN, Fox News and The Independent, the UK publication which ran an online editorial below the cartoon.

Even the Canadian War Museum came calling.

Watercooler conversations throughout Nova Scotia seemed to be all about the cartoon and the feelings it evoked about the cold-blooded murder of a 24-year-old reservist in front of Canada’s National War Memorial.

Simply stated, for the few who may not have seen it, the cartoon suggests the coming to life of the bronzed First World War soldiers that sit atop the memorial. One soldier is bent over, supporting Cpl. Nathan Cirillo’s body. Others are reaching down as if to help, while still others stare stoically forward.

His feet, complete with Argyll and Sutherland Highland socks and white spats, are the only part of the young soldier showing.

“That’s the part that touched me – the feet,” said Ian Thompson, associate publisher of The Chronicle Herald.

“(And) I guess it’s the notion of those folks in the statue coming to the aid of that young soldier.”​
More at The Halifax Chronicle-Herald


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> For those who didn't click to see - Bruce Mackinnon's Editorial Cartoon has been garnering compliments worldwide...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good. 

I applaud the artist.

Well done. 

Heavy sigh.... :-(

Thanks for sharing Mark, I had not seen that before.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> Nathan Cirillo's Dogs Wait For Master To Return (PHOTOS)
> 
> Sadly, he leaves behind a wife and a young son as well. Such a tragic and senseless loss of a fine person.


Indeed Marc, my sentiments exactly...

You can just tell by the photos of him that he was a good and happy person...

It is just too sad.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Sgt.-at-Arms Kevin Vickers, minutes after taking out the Parliament Hill killer.*



There is new weight on Vicker's shoulders following this incident... 

_He's being called a hero for shooting a rampaging gunman dead on Parliament Hill - and it may mark the first time Sergeant-at-Arms Kevin Vickers has ever fired a gun in the line of duty.

"This the first time in his career that he's shot anyone," said Erin, Vickers' niece._ (Sun News)​


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## Bobby Clobber (Aug 26, 2008)

This is worth a listen, but make sure you have a hanky nearby. Woman recalls efforts to save Cpl. Nathan Cirillo at War Memorial | As It Happens with Carol Off and Jeff Douglas | CBC Radio


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## skippythebushkangaroo (Nov 28, 2012)

Yep. CBC at its best. Stellar public radio broadcast coast to coast to coast. Lest we forget.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. CBC at its best. Stellar public radio broadcast coast to coast to coast.


CBC radio at its best was around 1943 and downhill from there. You'll see in about a year that you will hardly miss the next round of cuts!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yep. CBC at its best. Stellar public radio broadcast coast to coast to coast. Lest we forget.


Good point. I agree. The main battle is our home is whether CBC One, CBC Two or some of the CBC Speciality channels on radio are on all day. Classical Serenity usually wins out most of the time.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Thank goodness for CBC or the classics would be lost forever. 

I believe a pay model is the way to go here.



Dr.G. said:


> Good point. I agree. The main battle is our home is whether CBC One, CBC Two or some of the CBC Speciality channels on radio are on all day. Classical Serenity usually wins out most of the time.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

I just wanted bring up a point.. that was made by the globe and mail which I agree with.. 
after the terrorist attack in ottawa - the green party leader - tried to pawn it off as a person with mental illness and no connection to other groups. 
Thank God, the green party is only one seat in parliament.
"Don't equate religious extremism with mental illness: psychiatrist; Dr. Raj Bhatla, Psychiatrist-in-Chief and Chief of Staff for the Royal Ottawa Health Care Group"


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The green kook fringe discredits itself by trying to turn the story backwards. 



macintosh doctor said:


> I just wanted bring up a point.. that was made by the globe and mail which I agree with..
> after the terrorist attack in ottawa - the green party leader - tried to pawn it off as a person with mental illness and no connection to other groups.
> Thank God, the green party is only one seat in parliament.
> "Don't equate religious extremism with mental illness: psychiatrist; Dr. Raj Bhatla, Psychiatrist-in-Chief and Chief of Staff for the Royal Ottawa Health Care Group"


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Can we please not turn this thread into another ****ing anti-CBC rant? 

I just learned that Cpl. Cirillo was a single father. His 5-year-old son's name is Marcus. 

And my heart just broke a little bit.

*Cpl. Nathan Cirillo loved life, especially being a dad*


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Can we please not turn this thread into another ****ing anti-CBC rant?


Just like you turned the Ebola thread into an anti-FOX rant? You seem to have no capacity for introspection.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

screature said:


> Indeed.


I would like to offer my two cents here, and I preface this by sayIng I am not anti-Muslim.

The comments by a few Canadian Muslim communities doth not a shock of horror make. Many of these communities have brought in what security agencies call radical speakers to address their youth .... Where is the outrage here.

When a cartoonist drew cartoons of the prophet there was worldwide indignation by the Muslim communities (many of which did not see the offending cartoons), where are the world wide protest. Are Muslims all over the Middle East and the rest of the World condemning Radical Islam, or ISIS ? Or is what we are seeing just reaction to a civil war. What I don't want this to become is a war on Islam ...... But in order for this to not to become one, the Muslims of the world need to step up from Clerics on down and denounce the thought of radical views most vocally and visually .... Until we see this we can only assume that we go along with it. This, I am afraid may then have implications and retaliations on those Canadians who practice the Islam faith who are good law bidding and patriotic Canadians.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> I just wanted bring up a point.. that was made by the globe and mail which I agree with..
> after the terrorist attack in ottawa - the green party leader - tried to pawn it off as a person with mental illness and no connection to other groups.
> Thank God, the green party is only one seat in parliament.
> "Don't equate religious extremism with mental illness: psychiatrist; Dr. Raj Bhatla, Psychiatrist-in-Chief and Chief of Staff for the Royal Ottawa Health Care Group"


The RCMP has indicated there is no connection yet to ISIS or ISIL, despite your assumptions. 

He was a disturbed man who actually got kicked out of a mosque in Vancouver and it is quite possible he was on crack at the time of the shooting, forensics will let us know if that is the case.


Ottawa shootings: No Islamic State link found

Details of Michael Zehaf-Bibeau’s life paint a picture of a man troubled by drugs and crime


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

screature said:


> The RCMP has indicted there in connection yet to ISIS or ISIL, as much as you want there to be. He was a disturbed man who actually got kicked out of mosques in Vancouver and it is quite possible he was on crack at the time of the shooting, forensics will let us know if that is the case.
> 
> 
> Ottawa shootings: No Islamic State link found
> ...


Yes, this has been reported. That is why we need to take care about our actions and reactions.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> I would like to offer my two cents here, and I preface this by sayIng I am not anti-Muslim.
> 
> The comments by a few Canadian Muslim communities doth not a shock of horror make. Many of these communities have brought in what security agencies call radical speakers to address their youth .... Where is the outrage here.
> 
> When a cartoonist drew cartoons of the prophet there was worldwide indignation by the Muslim communities (many of which did not see the offending cartoons), where are the world wide protest. Are Muslims all over the Middle East and the rest of the World condemning Radical Islam, or ISIS ? Or is what we are seeing just reaction to a civil war. What I don't want this to become is a war on Islam ...... *But in order for this to not to become one, the Muslims of the world need to step up from Clerics on down and denounce the thought of radical views most vocally and visually ....* Until we see this we can only assume that we go along with it. This, I am afraid may then have implications and retaliations on those Canadians who practice the Islam faith who are good law bidding and patriotic Canadians.


I have said this before in another thread Rps so I am in complete agreement.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Rps said:


> I would like to offer my two cents here, and I preface this by sayIng I am not anti-Muslim.
> 
> The comments by a few Canadian Muslim communities doth not a shock of horror make. Many of these communities have brought in what security agencies call radical speakers to address their youth .... Where is the outrage here.
> 
> When a cartoonist drew cartoons of the prophet there was worldwide indignation by the Muslim communities (many of which did not see the offending cartoons), where are the world wide protest. Are Muslims all over the Middle East and the rest of the World condemning Radical Islam, or ISIS ? Or is what we are seeing just reaction to a civil war. What I don't want this to become is a war on Islam ...... But in order for this to not to become one, the Muslims of the world need to step up from Clerics on down and denounce the thought of radical views most vocally and visually .... Until we see this we can only assume that we go along with it. This, I am afraid may then have implications and retaliations on those Canadians who practice the Islam faith who are good law bidding and patriotic Canadians.


they will never denounce it..have you not noticed the mass exodus of Christians from the middle east?
Good luck, i hope you are not holding your breath for a condemnation.. instead they will continue on the broken record of these are individuals of misrepresentation or misguided.. well let me just state a fact.. over 1 billion muslims and it maybe 15% that 'misrepresenting.' but 1 billion times 15% - my math scares me.. 
that said, has any one of those community leaders step up to educate their community or those outside of their own? has any one of those countries offered to assist ?
not yet, probably never.

watch this video.. watch the question then fast forward to : 4mins for a great answer.
The female panelist answered it amazingly.




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## skippythebushkangaroo (Nov 28, 2012)

CBC coverage is unsurpassed. Period.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CBC coverage is unsurpassed. Period.


Agreed. Very balanced and complete.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> CBC coverage is unsurpassed. Period.





Dr.G. said:


> Agreed. Very balanced and complete.


No it isn't all!

Both Mansbridge and Solomon had it wrong!

In their ignorance they tried the best they could to try and portray that Michael Zehaf-Bibeau ran across the lawns of Parliament which he clearly didn't....

Sorry to break your collective bubbles.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Two questions that I am quite certain are being asked by investigative agents that will lead to telling answers:

How did he get the car?

How did he get the gun?


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## Dr_AL (Apr 29, 2007)

screature said:


> Two questions that I am quite certain are being asked by investigative agents that will lead to telling answers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How did he get the best up Toyota? Could have bought it for next to nothing or stolen it. Since it seems like there was a key for it my guess is he just bought it for next to nothing in a private sale, maybe and sketchy private sale. 

Since he was apparently not allowed to own a gun that question is more puzzling but since he's been across the country it could have been stolen from anywhere. 


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Daily editorial cartoons

In the latest USA Today newspaper


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

While I appreciate the sentiment of that political cartoon, I am not sure that Wednesday's attack is best described as an act of terrorism, which implies some type of collective organization behind it. At this point, all arrows point to being a whack job one man show. 


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

fjnmusic said:


> While I appreciate the sentiment of that political cartoon, I am not sure that Wednesday's attack is best described as an act of terrorism, which implies some type of collective organization behind it. At this point, all arrows point to being a whack job one man show.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't agree. He was a converted extremist. That doesn't happen over night
Not to mention he attempted to get a Libyan passport, then the gun and car. 

Yes just my 2cents.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> While I appreciate the sentiment of that political cartoon, I am not sure that Wednesday's attack is best described as an act of terrorism, which implies some type of collective organization behind it. At this point, all arrows point to being a whack job one man show.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





macintosh doctor said:


> Don't agree. He was a converted extremist. That doesn't happen over night
> Not to mention he attempted to get a Libyan passport, then the gun and car.
> 
> Yes just my 2cents.


It is a bit of both IMO.

He was clearly a troubled man and was searching for somewhere to belong to and something to believe in. But he radicalized himself. No one converted him to anything. He made the decision to convert/change on his own.

But if it wasn't for the hate speak of ISIL in all media he may have taken a different path. We can't know for sure what he might otherwise have done. But it most likely wasn't going to be anything good. His past is evidence of that.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> Don't agree. He was a converted extremist. That doesn't happen over night
> 
> Not to mention he attempted to get a Libyan passport, then the gun and car.
> 
> ...



A wannabe terrorist maybe, but he was still living and working and committing smaller crimes right here in Canada. He may have had aspirations to join a terrorist organization, but so far it seems he was acting alone. That in fact might be an even scarier prospect and in keeping with ISIS philosophy: do your own thing, man.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

screature said:


> Two questions that I am quite certain are being asked by investigative agents that will lead to telling answers:
> 
> How did he get the car?
> 
> How did he get the gun?


Was there Scopalamine in his blood?

Who radicalized him? After all the Canadian Muslim community did absolutely nothing for 13 years until the puppet masters told Harpo to go into Iraq. Suddenly we have radicalized Muslims giving him the excuse he needs. It all seems too convenient to me.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

*Conspiracy Theory at it's best/worst... in the end it is all the same...*



eMacMan said:


> Was there Scopalamine in his blood?
> 
> Who radicalized him? After all the Canadian Muslim community did absolutely nothing for 13 years until the puppet masters told Harpo to go into Iraq. Suddenly we have radicalized Muslims giving him the excuse he needs. It all seems too convenient to me.


Good job man, the Prima donna conspiracy theorist until the bitter end.

You are very consistent indeed.

Very well done.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

eMacMan said:


> Was there Scopalamine in his blood?
> 
> Who radicalized him? After all the Canadian Muslim community did absolutely nothing for 13 years until the puppet masters told Harpo to go into Iraq. Suddenly we have radicalized Muslims giving him the excuse he needs. It all seems too convenient to me.


Seemed passing strange on Monday afternoon's Question Period the PMO had a softball question from a Conservative Backbencher regarding terrorists when Warrant Officer Vincent and the other solider were attacked by a hit and run driver in Quebec late Monday morning.

Even stranger the Minister or junior Minister did not handle the question. 

The SQ did not even finish the investigation of the incident and OGL had the answers at the ready.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Yes, Laureen was directing the whole thing with a walkie-talkie behind the bushes. There's your aluminum-foil wrapped smoking gun.



BigDL said:


> Seemed passing strange on Monday afternoon's Question Period the PMO had a softball question from a Conservative Backbencher regarding terrorists when Warrant Officer Vincent and the other solider were attacked by a hit and run driver in Quebec late Monday morning.
> 
> Even stranger the Minister or junior Minister did not handle the question.
> 
> The SQ did not even finish the investigation of the incident and OGL had the answers at the ready.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

And so it begins. A convicted extremist as you guys are saying working alone LOL seems to be a lot of them :/

https://m.facebook.com/events/1721410708083563?acontext={"ref":3}&aref=3


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

ISIS posting videos to recruit and convert Canadians. 
http://ht-mobile.cdn.turner.com/cnn...-kaye-isis-recruiting-canadians.cnn.qtref.mov

Still think they are working alone?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> ISIS posting videos to recruit and convert Canadians.
> http://ht-mobile.cdn.turner.com/cnn...-kaye-isis-recruiting-canadians.cnn.qtref.mov
> 
> Still think they are working alone?


Alone in the sense that they take it upon themselves to do something for the organization, even though they may never meet the organization in person. This is how ISIS works; it inspires DIY terrorism, unlike Al Queda, who prefer to gather the people first and then give them their mission. So said the guy on CBC radio anyway.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_Or... he could have been a longtime drug addict with other mental health issues who 'fell through the cracks' in the system. The latter I don't believe, since the system isn't really designed to address root problems, but to punish. What might have happened had Zehaf-Bibeau been imprisoned and treated?_

*Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, Ottawa gunman, asked B.C. judge to send him to jail*



> At Zehaf-Bibeau's bail hearing, he told the judge himself that he wanted to serve time.
> 
> 
> 'I'm a crack addict and at the same time I'm a religious person... I want to sacrifice freedom and good things... so when I come out, I'll appreciate the things of life more and be clean.'
> ...





> Zehaf-Bibeau had walked into the Burnaby RCMP detachment on Dec. 15, 2011, at around 9 p.m. and asked to speak with police about an armed robbery he committed 10 years earlier, for which he wasn't punished, but now wanted to be.
> 
> An officer tried to help him, but couldn't find any record and refused to arrest him. Zehaf-Bibeau was detained under the Mental Health Act, but was released when it was determined he was neither ill nor intoxicated. He told police he was homeless and wanted to go to jail.
> 
> ...


(CBC)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Or, mentally ill AND a jihadist. There's a lot of room on the spectrum.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> And so it begins. A convicted extremist as you guys are saying working alone LOL seems to be a lot of them :/
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/events/1721410708083563?acontext={"ref":3}&aref=3


What exactly does this prove? Nothing.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

What if they had just given him his damn passport? Would things have turned out differently?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Exclusive: Ottawa shooter Michael Zehaf-Bibeau was ‘at odds with the world,’ mother says

Also contained in the link above:

Susan Bibeau's letter to Postmedia News

Some people here seem to want to be judge, jury and executioner before they know all the facts.

I am not one of them, even though this incident affected me more directly than anyone else here.

I want to know the truth and not just spread FUD as some here want to do.

Finding the truth takes time and knee jerk reactions, suppositions, ignorant assumptions, conspiracy thories, etc. do not provided anything of value in the pursuit of the truth.

In fact they hinder it.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

screature said:


> What exactly does this prove? Nothing.


It proves that a convicted Terror [ that is not working alone] suspect is protesting against Canadian Troops.. everyone here thinks the 'wackos' are individuals.. they are part of an organization.. its tragic to think otherwise.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> *It proves that a convicted Terror [ that is not working alone] suspect is protesting against Canadian Troops.. *everyone here thinks the 'wackos' are individuals.. they are part of an organization.. its tragic to think otherwise.


What are you trying to say..? I really have little idea. You need to review what you post before you hit the Submit Reply button....

Just to add, what you posted previously proves nothing, as I said. it is completely irrelevant as to whether or not Michael Zehaf-Bibeau was involved with ISIL... not in any way.

The discussion at hand (or at least part of it) is whether or not Michael Zehaf-Bibeau was connected to ISIL in any direct way. The evidence thus far indicates that he was not.

Do you really think that you have read anything that the RCMP, CSIS and other security agencies around the world have not??

I day say at the very least they have a plethora of information finding methods that you simply have no access to.

Yet they have not come to the same conclusion as you have and yet you seem to think have some special gift for finding out the truth?

I think you need to start reading farther afield and even mainstream media.

Then start to think about the evidence at hand and not simply make knee jerk and prejudiced posts.

It is OK to have suspicions. But it is not OK to maintain them in the face of hard evidence and facts to the contrary or that disprove/invalidate your suspicions.

That is just pure partisanship/prejudice/bigotry.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

As far as I can tell, he's an unstable guy motivated by messaging from ISIL/ISIS/Al Qaeda. While that's troublesome in itself, it is not as if though these organizations were in direct contact with him or supplying him with weapons.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Macfury said:


> As far as I can tell, he's an unstable guy motivated by messaging from ISIL/ISIS/Al Qaeda. While that's troublesome in itself, it is not as if though these organizations were in direct contact with him or supplying him with weapons.



Mark the calendar. I agree with everything you've said here, Macfury. 👍


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)




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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> As far as I can tell, he's an unstable guy motivated by messaging from ISIL/ISIS/Al Qaeda. While that's troublesome in itself, it is not as if though these organizations were in direct contact with him or supplying him with weapons.





fjnmusic said:


> Mark the calendar. I agree with everything you've said here, Macfury. 👍
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with what Macfury said as well.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


>


I saw that today as well but I have to say it is a very bad likeness of Vickers. This likeness makes him at best look like a teenager and not a 58 year old man.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> I saw that today as well but I have to say it is a very bad likeness of Vickers. This likeness makes him at best look like a teenager any not a 58 year old man.


They're Hallowe'en costumes for kids.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> They're Hallowe'en costumes for kids.


Ahh... Stupid me . I get it now...

In that case the likeness isn't all that bad.

I guess every once in a while editorial cartoonists can rise above being blithering idiots.

This seems to be one of those cases after all.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Family, friends, dignitaries gather for Nathan Cirillo's funeral*

Anyone wishing to contribute to the Cirillo family can donate by going to *any TD Bank branch* and asking to give money to the *Marcus Cirillo Trust*. One can also donate to the military family support agency *True Patriot Love Foundation*. Those wishing to donate electronically can go to *truepatriotlove.com* and earmark funds for Cirillo or to *standonguardfund.com*​
(Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> *Family, friends, dignitaries gather for Nathan Cirillo's funeral*
> 
> Anyone wishing to contribute to the Cirillo family can donate by going to *any TD Bank branch* and asking to give money to the *Marcus Cirillo Trust*. One can also donate to the military family support agency *True Patriot Love Foundation*. Those wishing to donate electronically can go to *truepatriotlove.com* and earmark funds for Cirillo or to *standonguardfund.com*​
> (Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


I watched much of the funeral today. It was very well done.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

screature said:


> I watched much of the funeral today. It was very well done.


I agree, Screature. I feel for his family, especially his young son. :-( Paix, mon ami.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

RCMP declared the shootings as terrorist attack. 
Interesting.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

macintosh doctor said:


> RCMP declared the shootings as terrorist attack.
> Interesting.


And odd. His history certainly doesn't lend itself to that designation. Will be interesting to see this video the cops say he recorded.... Even if it is full of pro-muslim extremist ISIS crap, his mental state surely must be taken into consideration.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> ...his mental state surely must be taken into consideration.


For what? He shot & killed an innocent, unarmed man & was heading off to repeat the deed. 

No huggy, kissy, poor terrorist because he had psychological problems & society let him down or some other such nonsense. He received his just reward.

That is the _only_ consideration.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

In CM's defense, his mental state must be taken into consideration as to whether he is a terrorist or simply a maniac.



FeXL said:


> For what? He shot & killed an innocent, unarmed man & was heading off to repeat the deed.
> 
> No huggy, kissy, poor terrorist because he had psychological problems & society let him down or some other such nonsense. He received his just reward.
> 
> That is the _only_ consideration.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

FeXL said:


> No huggy, kissy, poor terrorist because he had psychological problems & society let him down or some other such nonsense. He received his just reward.


I have no problem with the fact he was taken out by the police / Vickers. 

Holy friggin' hell, you right-wingers are impossible to talk to. There is a serious question to be asked, though impossible to answer: what if this guy had gotten the detox program in a Federal prison that he wanted - and had a history of committing crimes in a (misguided) attempt to do just that?

But no, rather than look at social causes of criminal behaviour, you guys just go immediately into black & white mode: he was a bad guy, end of story, it just happened. 

Because... I dunno.... God. Or Aliens... can't be blaming God for any of this... 

It's the complete lack of any compassion or willingness to explore motivations / social causes that leave Conservatives absolutely incapable of setting coherent and relevant social policy (for the sensible of you out there, please forgive the generalization).

*MF:* :-( Thanks, man. That got me right in the feels. (is that how the kids say it these days?)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yep, coddle them, give 'em a hug, complain about righties, release them and watch them kill innocent people.

What a plan!


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> Holy friggin' hell, you right-wingers are impossible to talk to. There is a serious question to be asked, though impossible to answer: what if this guy had gotten the detox program in a Federal prison that he wanted - and had a history of committing crimes in a (misguided) attempt to do just that?


Pot, meet kettle. 

We can idly speculate about shoulda, woulda, coulda 'til the cows come home & still end up with sweet FA. What if this, what about that. Who cares? He didn't & now two people are dead. Do you really think that anyone that close to the deep end isn't going to jump in, no matter what?



CubaMark said:


> But no, rather than look at social causes of criminal behaviour, you guys just go immediately into black & white mode: he was a bad guy, end of story, it just happened.


I'm a great believer in identifying cause & effect because there are far too many laws out there that address the effect, rather than dealing with the cause. However, not every cause out there can be fixed by a hug or another billion dollar social policy. Many are just going to kick you in the nuts for your effort and laugh when they do it. I have no issue giving a hand up to anyone who truly wants it. I'm not convinced he did.



CubaMark said:


> Because... I dunno.... God. Or Aliens... can't be blaming God for any of this...


Don't have any empirical evidence of either God or Aliens. However, as an agnostic, I keep an open mind about such things.



CubaMark said:


> It's the complete lack of any compassion or willingness to explore motivations / social causes that leave Conservatives absolutely incapable of setting coherent and relevant social policy (for the sensible of you out there, please forgive the generalization).


I have no shortage of compassion for the victim, his family or his friends. As to the perpetrator, screw him. He's made his bed, I hope he finds 72 syphilitic, bacon-fat smeared, smelly old goats in it. He crossed a line that no amount of hugs, therapy & social policy was going to fix. The unfortunate but realistic truth is that some people simply cannot be reached.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what sort of social policy you would consider to be coherent & relevant to this particular situation? I'm all ears...


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

not sure what thread we should put this one in.. Elizabeth May says its not a terrorist act LMAO - as she is tweeting that she supports Jian the womanizer. LOL

now she is retracting her support for Jian and blaming her PTSD blaming the shootings for her supporting Jian.. Good thing she only has one seat in Parliament. The other shocker is Trudeau is on side with Harper that it is a terrorist act .. my is mind blown, since he does not support our planes in the fight against terror


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

What I want to know, and I hope the police are investigating, is who took this photo:









This is clearly him in the act of shooting Nathan Cirillo and he is even looking at whoever took the photo.

There seems to be little to no discussion about it. 

Was it just an innocent bystander, or was it someone who knew about his plans and was there to document it?...

Inquiring minds want to know...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> I have no problem with the fact he was taken out by the police / Vickers.
> 
> Holy friggin' hell, you right-wingers are impossible to talk to. *There is a serious question to be asked, though impossible to answer: what if this guy had gotten the detox program in a Federal prison that he wanted - and had a history of committing crimes in a (misguided) attempt to do just that?*
> 
> ...


You said it yourself CM, it impossible to answer, thus logically the answer to the question is not worth pursuing.

IMO there is no such thing as a "social *cause*" per say, there are only social *indicators*. Different people react differently depending on their own personal character.

It is for this reason that it is really quite irrelevant to look at "social causes" as to why someone acts they way they did when it comes to such violent crime. 

For example what were the "social causes" for Justin Bourque to shoot 3 police officers dead in Moncton? There seems to be none, at least none indicated. 

It may be interesting to pursue the question on an academic level but certainly not in terms of public policy or legislation as it is simply inconsequential in terms of the crime he committed. An academic investigation is only that, academic.

In the real world 3 police officers are dead and an academic investigation is not going to change that or prevent such crimes from being perpetrated again because the reasons (motives) are on a case by case basis and not some generalized "social cause". 

However, when it comes to popularized extremist political/religious views then it can be a question worth perusing. But even then one has to examine very carefully what are the questions that really need to be asked to come up with any real *potentially* productive answers that can be addressed by public policy and legislation.

I think on some level you on the left are looking for an excuse to at least partially forgive such terrorists/criminals for what they did based on their past experience or upbringing.

Everyone has choices in life and for those that chose a path of crime/evil, no matter their past, it is still their choice.

Unless you can get off with a NCR plea... like Luka Magnotta who is currently attempting to do just that.

Please. Give me a break. 

The instances of true NCR cases are probably about 1 in 1M or so (pure speculation on my part as many of the "crazies" "off" themselves as well but it seems about right) but defence lawyers are paid handsomely to pursue such a plea nonetheless and thus why they do.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

"Guilty and insane" always struck me as a great way to bridge the distance.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> "Guilty and insane" always struck me as a great way to bridge the distance.


Yes, but in certain circumstances there can be a good reason to separate the two... as I indicated it doesn't happen often but in very rare instances it does/can happen.

BUT... I think the defence of NCR has to be proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. 

If it cannot then the full force of the law should be applied.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

screature said:


> IMO there is no such thing as a "social *cause*" per say, there are only social *indicators*. Different people react differently depending on their own personal character.


As an academic, "social indicators" mean something completely different than what I think you're saying here. Also: FYI "per se". Cool?



screature said:


> It is for this reason that it is really quite irrelevant to look at "social causes" as to why someone acts they way they did when it comes to such violent crime.


That hurts my brain. How can it be of no use, policy or otherwise, to seek the root causes of violent crime? In the case of the Parliament shooter, and I don't know how I can be any clearer on this point, this person had a history of drug addiction and petty crime; he specifically asked the judge in 2011 for federal remand so that he might enter a addiction treatment program (refused). This does not sound like a political / religious radical bent on attacking the state or Christian society. 



screature said:


> For example what were the "social causes" for Justin Bourque to shoot 3 police officers dead in Moncton? There seems to be none, at least none indicated.


Very different situation. Bourque - if you followed the sentencing hearing this week - quite obviously was a half-wit anti-state paranoid gun nut (and his circle of friends - revealed in FB posts and further RCMP arrests - indicate a bunch of half-wits with similar states of mind).



screature said:


> It may be interesting to pursue the question on an academic level but certainly not in terms of public policy or legislation as it is simply inconsequential in terms of the crime he committed. An academic investigation is only that, academic.


We academics don't just do this because it's "fun". We perform research with an aim, in many cases, to inform public policymaking. How else are you going to create public policy without evidence-based research? 



screature said:


> In the real world 3 police officers are dead and an academic investigation is not going to change that or prevent such crimes from being perpetrated again because the reasons (motives) are on a case by case basis and not some generalized "social cause".


I strongly disagree. Rampant drug addiction without social / health policy to address it very much results in real-world crime (theft, robbery, burglary, assault, murder). Of course it won't bring back the dead - but policy changes that plug the holes through which people fall can head off future anti-social behaviour. That ain't rocket science.



screature said:


> I think on some level you on the left are looking for an excuse to at least partially forgive such terrorists/criminals for what they did based on their past experience or upbringing.


That's insane. And as offensive as every previous post in this thread about us "on the left" wanting to "hug it out" with these characters. Nothing "just happens" in terms of human behaviours. We are shaped by environment, genes, upbringing, life events, etc. We don't want to "forgive". We want to be informed, and try to find ways of ensuring it doesn't happen again. That means *not* treating these acts on a "case by case basis" because that gets you nowhere. [/QUOTE]


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CM, that's a well-expressed post. Finding out why people do things need not be the same as excusing them for those things. Likewise, devoting some resources to heading off aberrant behaviour at the pass does not necessarily mean either engaging in hugs or breaking the bank.


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> We academics don't just do this because it's "fun". We perform research *with an aim, in many cases, to inform public policymaking*. How else are you going to create public policy without evidence-based research?


This is fundamentally flawed thinking and is precisely why the AGW debate is in the state it's in. The conclusions were drawn long before experimentation ever started.

Research needs to be conducted in the most cold, objective, detached, non-partison fashion as possible. It is not up to scientists to form social policy or to even consider their work for such. Worse yet is when "scientists" find an ivory tower of their own to shout from. 

The job of a researcher, a scientist, is to glean cold, hard facts from empirical experiment & present them as clearly, concisely & objectively as possible in real peer-reviewed fashion.

The second the researcher starts thinking, "This work may/will form public policy" the required scientific impartiality flies out the window. Period.

Such is human nature...


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

screature said:


> What I want to know, and I hope the police are investigating, is who took this photo:


That photo was plastered all over the news sites the day of the shooting. My recall is a bit foggy but it seems to me that it was taken from a Facebook account of some sort & is a photo from a couple years back.

Sorry I don't have anything more.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

FeXL said:


> This is fundamentally flawed thinking and is precisely why the AGW debate is in the state it's in. The conclusions were drawn long before experimentation ever started.
> 
> 
> FeXL said:
> ...


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I think you may have mistaken my general disagreement with almost everything you say as a blanket policy on my part. It's actually a point-by-point disagreement--you just happened to have recently said some things which I can support, or which I believe were mischaracterized.



CubaMark said:


> MF:[/B] Are you ok? Does your left side feel a bit weak? Anyone checked on you lately? You and I are finding common ground far too easily these days. It's spooky.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> That hurts my brain. How can it be of no use, policy or otherwise, to seek the root causes of violent crime? In the case of the Parliament shooter, and I don't know how I can be any clearer on this point, this person had a history of drug addiction and petty crime; he specifically asked the judge in 2011 for federal remand so that he might enter a addiction treatment program (refused). This does not sound like a political / religious radical bent on attacking the state or Christian society.


Root causes, sure, not the same as social causes which was your first statement. 

A lot of time has passed since 2011, people can easily change in that amount of time. 

The RCMP say they have a video of him indicating he was radicalized, we shall have to wait and see.



CubaMark said:


> Very different situation. Bourque - if you followed the sentencing hearing this week - quite obviously was a half-wit anti-state paranoid gun nut (and his circle of friends - revealed in FB posts and further RCMP arrests - indicate a bunch of half-wits with similar states of mind).


Of course it was different that was/is my point. 

Looking for some generalized "social cause" for why *individuals* carryout deranged acts of violence is basically not worth the time because you can be poor or wealthy, hang out with goofs or geniuses, etc... these kinds of acts can be carried by anyone regardless of social status or the company they keep.



CubaMark said:


> We academics don't just do this because it's "fun". We perform research with an aim, in many cases, to inform public policymaking. How else are you going to create public policy without evidence-based research?





CubaMark said:


> I strongly disagree. Rampant drug addiction without social / health policy to address it very much results in real-world crime (theft, robbery, burglary, assault, murder). Of course it won't bring back the dead - but policy changes that plug the holes through which people fall can head off future anti-social behaviour. That ain't rocket science.



Academics can and do contribute to public policy and legislation in terms of background information, e.g. studies, being witnesses at Standing Committees, etc.

But in the instances that we are talking about, acts of extreme violence, studying the reasons for why they did what they did is not going to inform public policy or legislation because what they did was illegal and always will be illegal. 

Tell me how in your view knowing, in your terms, the "social causes" for their actions, is going to in anyway affect changes to the Criminal Code?

You are jumping to conclusions, we don't know if drugs were in anyway associated with his actions at this point. 

However, I do agree that hard drug use can and sometimes does lead to the types of crime that you refer to and yes that is a big problem in society and it has been studied voluminously, so I don't really see what your point is here. 

Like you say, "It ain't rocket science."



CubaMark said:


> That's insane. And as offensive as every previous post in this thread about us "on the left" wanting to "hug it out" with these characters. Nothing "just happens" in terms of human behaviours. *We are shaped by environment, genes, upbringing, life events, etc.* We don't want to "forgive". We want to be informed, and try to find ways of ensuring it doesn't happen again. That means *not* treating these acts on a "case by case basis" because that gets you nowhere.


I didn't mean to be offensive but you clearly did.

Partially, but we also have free will and make choices and that is a fact that those on the left (not saying you necessarily) seem to sometimes want to skim over and thus why it can and does at times come across as downplaying the perpetrators personal responsibility for the choices they made and the acts they carried out.

Sorry, but once again looking for overarching causes is not going to get you very far either when it comes such deranged acts of crime IMO.

Except when it comes to the point that I made that you didn't comment on:



> However, when it comes to popularized extremist political/religious views then it can be a question worth perusing. But even then one has to examine very carefully what are the questions that really need to be asked to come up with any real potentially productive answers that can be addressed by public policy and legislation.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> Cognitive disconnect. Discussion on researching social causes of criminal behaviour somehow related to AGW. Non sequitor. Process Aborted. _ Brrrzzzzttttt!!!!!_


It's a perfect example in contemporary science of the process of putting the cart before the horse. 



CubaMark said:


> Speaking of logic... where did that convoluted mess come from? Or did you confuse the word *inform* in my post with the word *form*?


I understood the word "inform" most clearly.

Show me the flaw in my logic.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Interesting read.

“Who have Eyes and See Not”



> October 22nd’s terror attack by Michael (aka Abdullah) Zehaf-Bibeau brings into focus an important question for Western counterterrorism efforts, as reports are now indicating that Zehaf-Bibeau, reportedly a Muslim convert, or having recently become religious, had been under Canadian law enforcement scrutiny prior to the attack, over fears that he may head abroad to join the Islamic State. This exact same set of circumstances also existed for Martin Couture Rouleau, who killed one Canadian soldier, and wounded another, in a hit and run terror attack on October 21st.


More:



> The point of mentioning these cases (and there are others) is not to blame law enforcement or intelligence agencies for failure, but rather to *highlight a key problem. Despite the ability to detect, surveil and identify jihadists, which has been largely successful, the ability to actually prevent their attacks remains woefully inadequate.* And even less is being done about the networks which indoctrinated these men, most of whom were recent converts, or men from largely secular families who had recently been re-introduced to their faith with a renewed zeal. Instead the relevant agencies watched, and listened… and then when the attacks occur, they were left to clean up the mess.


M'bold


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't think you'd find CM disagreeing with you here.



FeXL said:


> The point of mentioning these cases (and there are others) is not to blame law enforcement or intelligence agencies for failure, but rather to highlight a key problem. Despite the ability to detect, surveil and identify jihadists, which has been largely successful, the ability to actually prevent their attacks remains woefully inadequate. And even less is being done about the networks which indoctrinated these men, most of whom were recent converts, or men from largely secular families who had recently been re-introduced to their faith with a renewed zeal. Instead the relevant agencies watched, and listened… and then when the attacks occur, they were left to clean up the mess.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_*Here's part of the story on the media's involvement in linking - correctly or incorrectly - the Parliament Hill shooter to ISIS:*_

*The Story Behind the Picture ISIS Never Tweeted*










_"The first image of a gunman appeared to have been first released by what was purportedly an ISIL-related Twitter account." "ISIS tweeted out Michael Zehaf-Bibeau picture."

One week after the attack in Ottawa, numerous international media outlets continue to spread false information.

How can I be so certain? Because I was the first to publish this photo.

This photo was first published and identified on my 100 per cent news Twitter feed @Breaking3zero several hours before the traditional media got a hold of it.

But before I explain how the so-called ISIS-did-it theory was born, let me tell you the story behind this picture, How it landed on my computer screen and how I was able to identify it before sharing it with the world._

(HuffPo)


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Even the Conservative Minister for Public Safety admits this guy wasn't "just" a jihadist - and that mental health, drug addiction were part of the picture:

*"Explosive cocktail" of mental illness, drug addiction and extremist ideology behind Cirillo shooting: minister*

_The federal public safety minister suggests an “explosive cocktail” of mental health problems, drug addiction and extremist ideology prompted the killing of Cpl. Nathan Cirillo at the National War Memorial in Ottawa.

Steven Blaney told a security conference Tuesday that Canada must be vigilant about the threat posed by people who become radicalized “for whatever reason.”

“We saw the explosive cocktail that mental health, drug addiction and ideology — extremist-inspired — can provide,” he told the audience of security professionals. “So we need to adapt, adjust and reach out — take this opportunity as Canadians to be prepared. _

(National Post)​


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Even the Conservative Minister for Public Safety admits this guy wasn't "just" a jihadist - and that mental health, drug addiction were part of the picture:
> 
> *"Explosive cocktail" of mental illness, drug addiction and extremist ideology behind Cirillo shooting: minister*
> 
> ...



I agree he wasn't just a jihadist but it was an "Explosive cocktail" of mental illness, drug addiction and *extremist ideology *.

Extremist ideology fuelled by ISIL and their sophisticated online networking capabilities.

If it wasn't for ISIL this incident would most likely never have taken place... he may have gone on to kill others any way... we will never know.

*But *... the actions he carried out were clearly political IMO, motivated by the hate speech and online presence of ISIL.

Why do I think that?

Because his first target was very carefully chosen. It was meant to be symbolic.

Then his next action was to attack the Parliament of Canada, also a political target... probably with the intent of killing the PM if he could... again we will never know, but to me, that seems to be a reasonable/plausible presupposition.

So CM I agree with you that it was an explosive cocktail of mental health problems, drug addiction and extremist ideology, but the evidence indicates thus far that it was extremist ideology that pushed him "over the edge" to do what he did.

Why do I say that?

Because before he did what he did he was still afflicted by mental health problems and drug addiction and he didn't do anything like what he did before he became influenced by extremist ideology.

That is why he should be referred to as a* terrorist *and not just some "common every day criminal or psychopath".


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

screature said:


> IThen his next action was to attack the Parliament of Canada, also a political target... probably with the intent of killing the PM if he could... again we will never know, but to me, that seems to be a reasonable/plausible presupposition.
> 
> So CM I agree with you that it was an explosive cocktail of mental health problems, drug addiction and extremist ideology, but the evidence indicates thus far that it was extremist ideology that pushed him "over the edge" to do what he did.


Right - but his untreated mental health issues, his untreated drug addiction, led him to be in a frame of mind where ISIS propaganda *may have* influenced his actions. Why is the weight of the discussion falling on radicalism as opposed to the possibility that this all could have been avoided had he found a sympathetic ear within his various interactions with the justice system?

And lets not forget - if I am remembering this correctly, the source isn't at hand (*EDIT: See below*), that he was recently denied a passport to travel internationally. I've seen reports that say he was travelling to join ISIS, and others that say he was desperately attempting to reach family members and attempt to battle his drug addiction within that environment. 

If the passport was the reason for his attack at Parliament, it is therefore not a political act inspired by radical ideology, but an attack in reaction to yet another rug being pulled out from under him.

And before certain other characters jump in here, I am in no way excusing his actions nor attempting to give his corpse a big warm hug. I'm just trying to present a plausible alternative to the 'radicalized muslim convert' meme that predominates much of the discussion these days.

*EDIT: * Found the link. CTV News report. 

_Although it’s not exactly clear what motivated Wednesday’s attacks in Ottawa, Paulson said the “passport issue was central to what was driving” Zehaf-Bibeau.

A man who was staying at the same downtown Ottawa shelter as Zehaf-Bibeau said the suspect had told him that *he wanted to get his passport, “get out of this country” and seek treatment for his drug addiction*.

When Zehaf-Bibeau initially applied for a passport, it seemed that he had wanted to travel to Libya, Paulson said. But his mother told investigators Wednesday that her son wanted to go to Syria.

Zehaf-Bibeau’s father is Libyan and his mother is Canadian. He may have had dual Canadian-Libyan citizenship, Paulson said._​


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> If the passport was the reason for his attack at Parliament, it is therefore not a political act inspired by radical ideology, but an attack in reaction to yet another rug being pulled out from under him.


Wah frickin' wah.

"Wul, they pissed me off because I didn't get my passport so I shot their ass..."

Seriously?

If you all are _this_ close to going Postal, it's no bloody wonder you want gun control.

This is not the rational response of an individual who could have been saved by the proper application of the "correct" social program. I'm not responsible for him killing an innocent person. Nor are you. Neither is the "system" for somehow letting him down.

He pulled the trigger. He & he alone is responsible. It's not someone else's fault & I'm certainly not going to sit here quiescently while you lecture about failed social policies & what may or may not have been his motivation...

As to the comment about leaving the country to get his drug addiction treated, I find that a crock. There are plenty of walk-in addiction treatment centers all over this country. I personally know several people who have done just that in southern Alberta alone. He'd been across the country at least once, from Vancouver to Ottawa. I'm sure he could have found one somewhere...


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

FeXL said:


> Wah frickin' wah.
> 
> "Wul, they pissed me off because I didn't get my passport so I shot their ass..."
> 
> ...


Nor is it ISIS/ISIL's fault if your logic holds true. I shall await your turn of thought as it seems emotions got the better of your thesis.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

FeXL said:


> Wah frickin' wah.
> 
> "Wul, they pissed me off because I didn't get my passport so I shot their ass..."
> 
> Seriously?


You are missing the point... _completely_. XX)

The point is, this is not a cut-and-dried "terrorist" attack. Simply put, there is quite a bit of information that points to this being anything but terrorism. 

I'm frankly enormously surprised that Harper allowed Stephen Blaney to make the public statement that included mental health issues with the shooter. 

But then, perhaps he doesn't have to, when there are so many of you willing to dismiss the reality of the matter and go off on your rants about terrorism, ISIS, jihadism, etc. 

Again, this is why Conservatives in general have a terrible time making social policy. They don't appear to even want to uncover the "why", and are content with the "what" and their violent reaction to it.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> Again, this is why Conservatives in general have a terrible time making social policy. They don't appear to even want to uncover the "why", and are content with the "what" and their violent reaction to it.


Two men are dead from gunfire. That's fairly violent. 

Talking about the event on a blog barely registers as remotely interesting to me but apparently qualifies as violent to some. I guess the only way you lefties can get anybody to turn their heads while you're talking is to turn up the histrionics. Nice.

You talk about discussing the reality of the matter. Do you have the inside track to a dead man's mind? What do you see? What is he telling you?

The murderer is not here to tell us why he did it, he hasn't left a note that anyone has found explaining why he did it & speculating about it on blogs or around office water coolers or in psychiatrists' offices until the cows come home ain't going to give an answer worth the paper it's written upon.

At this point the why will never be truly known. Spending more energy than it takes to bury the bastard is pointless right now, a waste of time & money.

You can't prescribe a social policy for an undefined problem.

And, does it really matter if this was a terrorist attack or not? What does that knowledge change in the big picture?

Know that we'll never understand the real reasons for the "why", learn what we can from the "what", then move on.

Yes, that's what Conservatives in general do. They don't waste time running around rending hair & screeching "What if?!" and "Society failed this poor, misunderstood boyl".


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

BigDL said:


> Nor is it ISIS/ISIL's fault if your logic holds true.


Where did I say it was?


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

FeXL said:


> The murderer is not here to tell us why he did it, he hasn't left a note that anyone has found explaining why he did it & speculating about it on blogs or around office water coolers or in psychiatrists' offices until the cows come home ain't going to give an answer worth the paper it's written upon."


He left a video. The RCMP have it. Whether or not we see it is another issue..



> And, does it really matter if this was a terrorist attack or not? What does that knowledge change in the big picture?


It absolutely matters. It's a label and labels change how we view something and what are willing to do about it. It's like dismissing someone as "just evil". It doesn't get to the root of the cause and somehow extinguishes that persons culpability in that we choose to believe they are different from you and me. 

This guy had 32 years before he went off. He was a son, a man, a Canadian. ISIS has only been in mainstream media for the last number of years...

It's quite possible this guy was suicidal. Islam does not allow suicide. He may have wanted to go join the fight as a way of checking out, without any violations to his belief system. The rejection of his passport might just have been his trigger to get the job done here... "Suicide by cop"

And if suicidal tendencies' aren't a mental health alarm, what is?

Either way discussion is important.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Implied here;


FeXL said:


> Well, well, well...
> 
> Suspected killer in Ottawa shootings had a disturbing side
> 
> ...


again implied here;


FeXL said:


> For what? He shot & killed an innocent, unarmed man & was heading off to repeat the deed.
> 
> No huggy, kissy, poor terrorist because he had psychological problems & society let him down or some other such nonsense. He received his just reward.
> 
> That is the _only_ consideration.





FeXL said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> “Who have Eyes and See Not”
> 
> ...





FeXL said:


> Where did I say it was?


You implied ISIS/ISAL by your links and your references to terrorists and jihad. 

I did not have to wait very long for the train of thought to reverse. Thanks for not disappointing.

SO at least we agree the actions of the shooter were the responsibility of the shooter and the shooter alone! 

As you point out we shall never know whether the motivation for the actions of the shooter were obsessive, irrational, psychotic, suicide by cop or an act of terror.

Dead is dead.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

BigDL said:


> Implied here;
> 
> again implied here;
> 
> ...


Bull$h!t. Pretty liberal interpretations.

I did imply that he may have been influenced by ISIS/ISAL. By no means does that place the blame on them. Ultimately, he pulled the trigger.

My position has not changed, nor will it.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

smashedbanana said:


> He left a video. The RCMP have it. Whether or not we see it is another issue..


Thx, didn't know that.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

I want to shake this Marine's hand...

A Lone Marine Ignores Death Threats to Stand Guard at War Memorial. What Happened There Haunts Him.



> _Sinke, a Canadian-American dual citizen who lives in Canada, said “the murder of the young Cpl. Cirillo was so despicable and craven that I just couldn’t find it within myself to do nothing.” He arrived at the memorial… and stood guard by himself until the Canadian honor guard and eight Canadian police officers with fully automatic weapons joined him.”​_


Thank you, Major Sinke, Jr.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

FeXL said:


> Thx, didn't know that.


I posted that a while back now at #123

It was a long post so I can understand how you could have missed it.



> The RCMP say they have a video of him indicating he was radicalized, we shall have to wait and see.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*New info from CBC on the shooter, painting a very different picture of the man...*

*Michael Zehaf-Bibeau showed B.C. co-workers jihadi videos*

CBC has learned new details of Michael Zehaf-Bibeau's life in British Columbia that appear to challenge the picture of a homeless, drug-addicted drifter.

The account by a former supervisor and friend at a drilling company in Squamish, B.C. also reveals that Zehaf-Bibeau was open about his support for jihadi groups.

CBC has agreed not to reveal the man's identity.

The man first got to know the 27-year-old who called himself Mike Zehaf in 2007, when he arrived in Squamish. The work involved drilling and injecting shotcrete in underground tunnels. He worked closely with Zehaf-Bibeau as foreman of his small work crew for the next two years, until both were laid off on the same day when the project ended.

* * *​
At the time, Zehaf-Bibeau was sharing a rented house with two other young men, both locals. He was making more than $90,000 a year, but was very focused on saving money, said the foreman. He spent little and drove a 1994 Nissan Pathfinder he said had been given to him by a man at a Vancouver Islamic centre.

"The Mike Zehaf I knew was a nice guy," he told CBC News. "Kind, friendly, polite and appreciative. He always had good manners, like a guy who was trying to impress the parents of a hot chick."

Zehaf-Bibeau was also devout, said the foreman, praying five times a day, every day.​
(CBC)


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Nice selective editing.

He was displaying that he was self radicalized that many years ago...

So do you agree he was terrorist or not?

Based on your previous posts and then this one I am not really sure where you stand or what you are saying because you so often post links and quotes but don't that often post any commentary...

It is really frustrating on a communications front.

Why not add commentary to your post?

Are you really that busy that you can't? If you are then pay closer attention to that which is truly important to you and don't bother posting here at all until you really have the time to say something.

It is just MO.

Take care.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ah yes, the people's left-wing network trying to paint a better picture of a whacko and middle eastern influenced terrorist. Par for the course and typical of the CBC agenda. I am surprised Trudeau has yet to pronounce him to be treated with respect and dignity and not vilified.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

screature said:


> Nice selective editing.
> 
> He was displaying that he was self radicalized that many years ago...
> 
> ...


I agree, Justin Bourque, was a self radicalized Gun Nut and terrorist. He terrorized and who attacked our Nation and its Government by attacking its National Police Force.

The Crown just prosecuted him as a crazed criminal.

Of course it was in the further east. When it doesn't affect Ontario or Quebec, it seems, it matters little to you. When it doesn't fit a particular narrative it doesn't matter to you. Let's not address the issue. The issue self deluded whack jobs.

Lone whack jobs can't be controlled. Do you get yet?

Laws are not the problem. There are enough laws to handle the security threats presently, the security problem is lack of coordination and lack of resources.

A simple resource i.e. a lock on the door of Parliament and a security person to monitoring the exterior of Parliament and who enters could have stopped a whack job gunman from entering Centre Block.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I cam agree with you on this part.



BigDL said:


> Laws are not the problem. There are enough laws to handle the security threats presently, the security problem is lack of coordination and lack of resources.
> 
> A simple resource i.e. a lock on the door of Parliament and a security person to monitoring the exterior of Parliament and who enters could have stopped a whack job gunman from entering Centre Block.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I am not sure "terrorist" is the correct term for one guy acting alone and not on behalf of a recognized terrorist organization. A wanna-be terrorist perhaps. He was about as much a terrorist as Lee Harvey Oswald. A frightening Mofo, no doubt, should have been locked up early on, but it would appear he acted alone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

SINC said:


> Ah yes, the people's left-wing network trying to paint a better picture of a whacko and middle eastern influenced terrorist. Par for the course and typical of the CBC agenda. I am surprised Trudeau has yet to pronounce him to be treated with respect and dignity and not vilified.


The article does not paint a better picture of him at all.

Trudeau stood up and agreed with the conservatives in labeling the shooting a terrorist attack.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

smashedbanana said:


> Trudeau stood up and agreed with the conservatives in labeling the shooting a terrorist attack.


Trudeau on how to deal with terrorists : Prime time : SunNews Video Gallery

Trudeaus and Terrorism | The American Spectator


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

fjnmusic said:


> I am not sure "terrorist" is the correct term for one guy acting alone and not on behalf of a recognized terrorist organization. A wanna-be terrorist perhaps. He was about as much a terrorist as Lee Harvey Oswald. A frightening Mofo, no doubt, should have been locked up early on, but it would appear he acted alone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then you have no idea how much terror one gun nut, with a high powered rifle, loose in the environment can engender.

Please explain which terrorist organization a driver in Quebec and a gun nut with a winchester in Ontario were card carrying members of?

Definition of terrorist = a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.

Two individuals pissed off about not having a passport does not an organization make.

If anyone paid attention to the Moncton shooters reason's for shooting RCM police officers would know the shooter had political aims.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Agreed.



BigDL said:


> Definition of terrorist = a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.
> 
> Two individuals pissed off about not having a passport does not an organization make.
> 
> If anyone paid attention to the Moncton shooters reason's for shooting RCM police officers would know the shooter had political aims.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

smashedbanana said:


> The article does not paint a better picture of him at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau stood up and agreed with the conservatives in labeling the shooting a terrorist attack.



Trudeau and Harper can both be wrong, even wrong for different reasons. The Parliament Hill shooting was as much a terrorist attack as was the beheading on the greyhound bus a couple of years ago. In both cases there was a whack job acting on their own volition, not part of an organization. Just because someone terrifies you does not make them a terrorist, unless we've really watered down the meaning of the word in recent times. It all has to do with intent. Are school shootings acts of terrorism? They are arguably more destructive, since they kill children, but I've yet to hear a school shooting characterized as an act of terrorism. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

SINC said:


> Now saying multiple shooters in other parts of the city.



Did we ever get any confirmation on all these other "multiple shooters"? Or was this an erroneous report that made the incident sound bigger and more organized than it really was? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Before Parliament Hill attack, RCMP got 3 warnings, reduced patrols*










Mounties received at least three warnings of potential terrorist attacks on uniformed officers before last year's shootings on Parliament Hill, yet the RCMP wound down extra patrols around the parliamentary precinct just days before the tragedy, newly disclosed documents show.

The RCMP unit that patrols Parliament Hill, which shooter Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, 32, successfully stormed, was understaffed by at least 29 positions at the time of the attack.

An inside glimpse of the RCMP's security posture on Oct. 22 is contained in a 1,000-page dossier obtained by CBC News under the Access to Information Act, following an 11-month delay in its release.

* * *​
Yet a third warning to RCMP officers was issued the day before the Ottawa shooting "outlining security/prevention measures for police officers with regard to recent threats made by the Islamic State group towards law enforcement." Details of the third warning, from the RCMP's National Intelligence Co-ordination Centre and which followed an Oct. 20 terror-linked attack in Quebec, were censored in the package released to CBC News.

The Harper government's 2012 deficit-fighting budget cuts had already seriously eroded staffing levels for the RCMP's parliamentary force. An October 2014 human resources report shows at least 29 vacant positions, and as many 51 empty posts depending on the accounting method.

There were a total of 177 positions authorized for the unit, but only 126 "members available," Supt. Luc Lemire reported to his bosses.

An Ontario Provincial Police investigation into the Oct. 22 shootings also cited the resource-starved RCMP unit, although the exact staffing shortfall numbers were blacked out in the public version of the final report.

The RCMP dossier shows that despite chronic staffing issues, the RCMP managed to increase its patrols in the parliamentary precinct and on Sussex Drive, near the residences of the prime minister and the Governor General, after two security incidents in mid-October.

* * *​
...the RCMP launched "enhanced patrols" after the incidents — but stopped them on Oct. 20, two days before Zehaf-Bibeau's attack. He was shot dead after opening fire inside Centre Block on Parliament Hill.

The heavily censored public version of the OPP report from March 2015 does not refer to the terror warnings or increased patrols, but is highly critical of the minimal resources given to the RCMP.​
(CBC)


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Well at least that explains why barricades and police tape were already at the monument before the attack took place.

Still a couple of biggies that are not addressed. Why the four "witness" running to their marks then lolly gagging around for a few seconds waiting for the shooter to emerge from his car so they run for their lives.

How come no autopsy or tox-screen on the shooter???????????


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