# Is it too soon to sound the death knell for Dell?



## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

I think it's time to turn Michael Dell's quote about Apple on him, "Dell should sell off the company and give the money back to the share-holders". :lmao: 

Consider in the last two years:
Apple's stock has been on a steady climb and is up over 300%
Dell's stock has remained flat and is down over 20%










Like Gateway, I think Dell will be put out to _pasture_  in two years.  

Link for reference.

- "...a record-setting recall of notebook batteries, the disclosure of a federal accounting probe and a 51 percent decline in second-quarter profit."

- "Dell's competitors have gotten better..."


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

"Dell's stock has remained flat and is down over 20%"

I think Microsoft has fared even worse for the last few years.
Is Microsoft going away any time soon? (Oh, but we can wish!)

I believe the great unwashed masses will continue to order DELL systems, just maybe in fewer numbers than previously.


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## mac_mark (Apr 19, 2004)

I hope Dell is around for a long time. 

They have great monitors. Amazing prices and great performance. As well, their sales are a good time to pick up peripherals.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

Dell is too big and established to just fail. They'll sort themselves out at some point. They may never have as big of a marketshare as before though. They were innovative at one time and found ways to sell more for less. Others have learned to do the same.


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## 9mmCensor (Jan 27, 2006)

decline in profits for dell yeah, but im pretty sure they still arent losing money. profitable companies continue to exist.


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

I just installed the lastest beta 1.1 bootcamp drivers for windows...now that isight is supported in windows and everything is tickity boo running on a Mac I have no reason to believe Dell needs to exist any longer....Apple is superior to Dell in every way...and hopefully people will see that...

my step brother and his wife are both in architecture and both love the Al powerbooks. They couldn't buy one because they need Auto cad..well I am now proud to tell them that they can Run, DON'T walk to your local Apple store and buy a shiny new macbook pro! SWEET


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

I just reviewed their Q1 FY 2007 financial statements...they aren't going anywhere...but I didn't really need to review them to know that.  

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/corporate/sec/10Q07Q1.htm


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## CompGuy (Sep 19, 2004)

Dell isn't going anywhere. The Windows PC market is at a very mature stage currently and hence the slowdown in Dell's sales. I do however think they should explore more niche markets and focused areas as a way to boost sales in a mature market downturn. I'm sure the eventual release of Vista will help but there really is no substitution for innovation - Apple has shown the world that. I agree with one of the previous posters in that I think Dell makes a good product (especially the monitors) albeit it is boring product from a design perspective as compared with Apple (I personally use my Macs 90% of the time). I will say that when called upon, my Dell PC running XP Pro has been very reliable. I do think Dell will continue to be a strong computer company but their days of huge sales numbers are probably gone for good as people do not feel the need to upgrade machines when what they currently have is fast and works fine for the things they do. It could be that Dell will have to try to make more inroads in the business market (Servers, Storage, Switches etc.) and not be as reliant on the consumer market as in the past.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

mac_mark said:


> I hope Dell is around for a long time.


Me too! I have a couple of Dell PowerEdge servers and they are rock solid, excellent performers and dirt cheap.

I guess the real question is what will happen to Apple's share price when Steve Jobs retires or is forced out by his illness.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

Steve's not sick, let's get that one straight.


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## monster and machine (Aug 22, 2005)

> I'm sure the eventual release of Vista will help


yep. with any luck it'll be out by the time we have finished teraforming mars with an atmosphere capable of supporting human life.


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

Dell has some serious issues:

- artificially propping up EPS (earnings per share) numbers by buying back stock (which has also decreased in value over the past couple years)
- SEC investigation for 'revenue recognition'
- no longer have preferential pricing with Intel - and have moved to AMD two years too late
- margins continue to shrink in a competitive environment Dell has never seen before - Hewlett Packard, Lenovo and Apple are cutting into their sales on the high end and Gateway / eMachines are hitting them in the low end
- delays in Vista and reluctance of corporations to install it even if it is released on schedule
- recall of 4.1 million laptop batteries - bound to impact notebook sales

In the past, Dell simply lowered prices to ride out any rough patches ... they don't have that luxury anymore due to already razor thin margins and because the competition has caught up with them in terms of costs of production.

Death knell? ... not yet ... serious market share loss? ... absolutely.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Spoke to my Mum (who's in her 70's but you'd never know it) over the phone (she lives in the UK) this weekend and she relayed a 90 min phone call from a distant relative who is rarely in touch. The relative kept going on about how her son only buys Dell because they are the best and she uses Skype to save lots of money and Dell is perfect, blah, blah. My Mum responded that she doesn't own a PC but she does use something akin to Skype but with video. The distant relative had no idea about the Mac.

Being a marketshare leader brings you lemming attitudes (no one was fired for buying IBM) as Apple is currently finding with the iPod. However, Dell is fundamentally equivalent to several other PC makers. The company's ability to innovate is limited and the components are largely commoditized. That's why they've recently being buying into higher end companies (Alienware and their XPS range) but that market cannot sustain a company the size of Dell. Even Microsoft is buying into the vertical integration model of Apple, recognizing that it is necessary for consumer uptake of otherwise complicated interfaces and services. The question is whether Apple can grow faster enough to reap the rewards of an integrated hardware/software model before Dell works out how to differentiate itself before it slips back into the sea of generic PC makers.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

SoyMac said:


> I think Microsoft has fared even worse for the last few years.
> Is Microsoft going away any time soon? (Oh, but we can wish!)


From what I've read in Apple101's post, "I Am Running Windows Apps Without Windows!" we may get our wish sooner than later.  


CompGuy said:


> I do however think they should explore more niche markets and focused areas as a way to boost sales in a mature market downturn.


Well it ain't goin' to be the DJ Ditty. That baby has just been killed off (like its big brother, the DJ) which means Dell is officially out of the personal digital media player business (way to innovate tptptptp ).
And! Now this, "Dell losing support on Wall Street".


> Filings show major shareholders trimming stake in No. 1 PC maker as analysts downgrade recommendation; _some focus criticism on CEO_.


Bong, bong... :lmao:


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## hungryhouse (Feb 2, 2005)

*giveaway*

3 of my friends have recently signed on with Telus and the "free Dell" deal. I've been naging my Mac-less friends to delve into the Apple world, but it's hard to compete with free. Anyways, my point is they're giving them away, is that strategic marketing or what?


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

Day by day, there is more erosion to Dell's business. Who'd have ever thought we'd see this, "Mac Pro beats Dell on price". Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Let's start the rumor that Dell is being bought out by HP-Compaq. Or even worse MDG. :lmao:


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## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

9mmCensor said:


> decline in profits for dell yeah, but im pretty sure they still arent losing money. profitable companies continue to exist.


Unfortunately you don't know the dirty little secrets Dell has been using for years in order to _gain_ the market share in the first place. Trust me, there's a little a bit of red ink to be digested with those market share reports. Dell's Aquisition Division explains that easily enough <img src="http://www.ehmac.ca/images/smilies/wink.gif">.

Dell, General Motors, and Microsoft are just three examples of how a big corporation lets their American ignorance get the better of them. All three stopped innovating (wait a minute, did Microsoft _ever_ innovate?) as each was way ahead of the competition. The old saying, "what goes around, comes around" is always in effect. And now it's coming around to bite them in the ass.


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## duper (May 7, 2006)

Bjornbro said:


> Like Gateway, I think Dell will be put out to _pasture_  in two years.


But Gateway is still around.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Apple is too innovative for the masses.

They can't leave 'good enough' alone. Their frequent changes in design & function require learning; learning that the average Joe has no time or patience for.

Most corporations (major purchasers of computers) have guidelines on what to purchase for their employees. The people who write these guidelines prefer Dell (and the like) because their technology doesn't make significant changes from year to year.

Apple on the other hand, over the last 4-5 years has sold G3, G4, G5 and Intel-based systems; each with their unique properties and limitations. Additionally, Apple has massively overhauled their OS. It's a great upgrade - but these changes are a major headache for an enterprise-level environment.

Another area that Apple burned themselves is in their supply cock-ups (eg. the G5 launch, Motorola processor-supply fiasco).

Even though Dell has had exploding batteries - it's still egg on Apples face that they too didn't control their quality. (Doesn't Apple pride itself on having higher standards? Well -they're no better in this regard!!!)

For the reasons above, Apple is in no position to take corporate sales away from Dell (and their kind).

Even though I love macs - I would have second thoughts about deploying 10,000 of them.


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## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

ice_hackey said:


> They can't leave 'good enough' alone. Their frequent changes in design & function require learning; learning that the average Joe has no time or patience for.


I'll admit that Apple makes "upgrades" to Mac OS X frequently, but in most cases everything is backwards compatible, and generally speaking, upgrading isn't necessary. Sure there are many differences between Panther and Tiger, but the differences don't change how the overall operating system works. Unless you have a serious lack of common sense, you should be able to get around Tiger just as well as Panther. The learning curve is pretty flat. And as mentioned, upgrading is an option. If Panther is running fine, why spend for Tiger? Just as many IT departments are still running Windows 2000. Want to talk learning curve? Windows XP versus 2000 is a much steeper learning curve.



> Most corporations (major purchasers of computers) have guidelines on what to purchase for their employees. The people who write these guidelines prefer Dell (and the like) because their technology doesn't make significant changes from year to year.


Are you sure that is the reason? I beg to differ. Two things: Dell makes just as significant changes year to year as any other PC manufacturer, if not more. The minute Intel has a new chip, you can bet Dell will have it in one of their machines. Apple on the other hand, while getting better at upgrading faster, we are still waiting for at least one Merom based Mac. Also, Apple's product is quite streamlined, and each unit offers high level componentry. Not one Mac comes with a Celeron. Dell on the other hand, is so focused on low pricing, they'll go for what ever Pentium 4s Intel still has in their stockpiles, and release a machine just barely over cost. They've played this game for the past several years, and now the computer industry has come to suffer. Gone are the days when you actually made money selling computers.

Number two, based on your "guidelines" comment, it has nothing really do with that at all. I read an article by David Pogue a while ago, and he was spot on... IT departments won't recommend Apple. That's suicidal. If Macs don't get viruses, or crash, or whatever else, they have just eliminated the need for an IT department. That's why Dell will always have the corporate world.



> Apple on the other hand, over the last 4-5 years has sold G3, G4, G5 and Intel-based systems; each with their unique properties and limitations. Additionally, Apple has massively overhauled their OS. It's a great upgrade - but these changes are a major headache for an enterprise-level environment.


Yes, each interation of the PowerPC and now the Intel transition had their own "unique properties and limitations". However, Apple has done a remarkable job of making each transition as seemless as possible. This latest Intel transition has gone very well, with a slew of new Universal software being developed, and the Rosetta technology taking care of anything that falls through the cracks. That is more than I can say for when Microsoft told the world Windows 98 was dead, and everyone can now move on to Windows XP (which is NT based). Sure there is a lot more to worry about when we talk Windows (much more software), but nevertheless compatibility issues arose. And let's not forget, Microsoft is a massive company... Oh wait... I think another big transition is coming. How many corporations are going to replace all their machines just to run Windows Vista?



> Another area that Apple burned themselves is in their supply cock-ups (eg. the G5 launch, Motorola processor-supply fiasco).


Would you rather it have been the other way around?
_Always better to have more demand than supply._ <img src="http://www.ehmac.ca/images/smilies/greedy.gif">




> Even though Dell has had exploding batteries - it's still egg on Apples face that they too didn't control their quality. (Doesn't Apple pride itself on having higher standards? Well -they're no better in this regard!!!)


I'll admit that Apple's quality isn't always perfect, and rightly so. However, it is unfair to say it's Apple's fault about the latest 1.8 million battery recall, that Dell is also suffering. The manufacturer of the batteries are the same between Dell and Apple. Neither company is in the battery business. Sure the word "recall" looks bad, but the reality is, these latest recalls don't mean a thing about either company in terms of quality.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

AppleAuthority said:


> Unless you have a serious lack of common sense, you should be able to get around Tiger just as well as Panther. The learning curve is pretty flat.


_Lacking in common sense?_
You've just described "most people".

_Adopts poorly to change?_
Humans are creatures of habit, we don't like change.



AppleAuthority said:


> Are you sure that is the reason? I beg to differ. Two things: Dell makes just as significant changes year to year as any other PC manufacturer, if not more.


If necessary, Dell could send me 60 workstations with NO operating system, so I can run my old copies of WIN2K if that's what I want to do.

Can Apple provide me with 60 workstations with NO operating system, so I can run my old copies of OS9? Nevermind why I want OS9. _I just want it_.

Can Apple make it happen? No. Of course not. Apple hasn't made a maching capable of *BOOTING* that OS in a long time.
Do you enjoy forced upgrades? I don't.



AppleAuthority said:


> IT departments won't recommend Apple. That's suicidal. If Macs don't get viruses, or crash, or whatever else, they have just eliminated the need for an IT department. That's why Dell will always have the corporate world.


That's nothing more than fanboi conspiracy theory. :lmao: 
You think Macs don't crash?
You think Mac hard-drives don't die?
BAHAHAhahahaHHAAHhaaHHAAha!! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: 



AppleAuthority said:


> Apple has done a remarkable job of making each transition as seemless as possible. This latest Intel transition has gone very well


Yes - the Intel changeover is _hot stuff_:


...or should I have said "_It's going swell_"?

...or should I have said "these guys are on fire!":




AppleAuthority said:


> with a slew of new Universal software being developed


Please tell me - did Adobe ever launch the UB of Creative Suite?
Oh yeah, _that's right_... no they didn't.

How can Mac be "the creative choice" when the leading creative software company can't keep pace with their frequent system revisions?



AppleAuthority said:


> Rosetta technology taking care of anything that falls through the cracks.


*Plenty* has fallen through the cracks, and Rosetta isn't that great.
In many situations, the new Intel Macs are more capable at running Windows!!
For example, you could take a look at all the performance surveys of Photoshop in Rosetta vs. running XP.



AppleAuthority said:


> Would you rather it have been the other way around?
> _Always better to have more demand than supply._ <img src="http://www.ehmac.ca/images/smilies/greedy.gif">


If I was trying to buy a G5 at launch, of course I'd prefer to have an over-supply. It would get me a better price!!! And I wouldn't have to wait 6 months for the top-end workstation.

You'd prefer to pay a premium and wait?  



AppleAuthority said:


> I'll admit that Apple's quality isn't always perfect, and rightly so. However, it is unfair to say it's Apple's fault about the latest 1.8 million battery recall, that Dell is also suffering. The manufacturer of the batteries are the same between Dell and Apple. Neither company is in the battery business. Sure the word "recall" looks bad, but the reality is, these latest recalls don't mean a thing about either company in terms of quality.


Irrelevant!! The fact that Apple and Dell both use the same manufacturer, and both missed the DEVISTATING production flaw indicates that they are both lacking in quality control.

If they actually caught this problem - it might be an opportunity to turn some heads. Apple dropped the ball!!!!

I digress...

My point is that Apple does not belong in the corporate world.


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## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

ice_hackey said:


> _Lacking in common sense?_
> You've just described "most people".
> 
> _Adopts poorly to change?_
> Humans are creatures of habit, we don't like change.


Is that why General Motors is still making the same cars as they've made for decades? (hence, I didn't use the word "sell")



> If necessary, Dell could send me 60 workstations with NO operating system, so I can run my old copies of WIN2K if that's what I want to do.
> 
> Can Apple provide me with 60 workstations with NO operating system, so I can run my old copies of OS9? Nevermind why I want OS9. _I just want it_.


Let's take a step back for a moment. Corporations would be _switching_ to Mac. Thus I don't see any reason for them to want OS 9 machines. You know that is not a fair argument. 



> Do you enjoy forced upgrades? I don't.


Did Apple force anyone to upgrade? I don't think so. Even if you bought a new PowerPC Mac that only booted into OS X, the Classic environment still existed. And it worked. Also, OS 9 was based upon the same OS released in 1984. It was time for change.

As far as OS X goes, forced upgrades aren't really an issue. You don't have to buy Leopard. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And speaking of forced upgrades, do you think you're going to get away with upgrading to Vista and take advantage of all it has to offer with those commercial IBM boxes complete with 16 Megs of integrated video? I think not. The good thing about Vista however, is that it might finally get the computer industry selling computers and making money again. That is if anyone wants Vista.



> You think Macs don't crash?
> You think Mac hard-drives don't die?
> BAHAHAhahahaHHAAHhaaHHAAha!! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


Did I say I thought such a thing? Of course Macs crash, of course hard drives die. They are comptuers. However, Apple's latest ads and the fact that OS X is a UNIX based OS are enough to suggest it will fail _less_. At least, it's an assumption. Regardless, media has a way of swaying minds, and I'm sure it would be enough for an IT department to worry about losing their jobs if these Macs are so _wonderful_.



> Yes - the Intel changeover is _hot stuff_:
> 
> 
> ...or should I have said "_It's going swell_"?
> ...


Apple shipped 1.3 million Macs this 3rd quarter alone. How many of those Macs had swelling batteries, or bursted into flames? I think the Service Providers on this forum can answer that for me.



> Please tell me - did Adobe ever launch the UB of Creative Suite?
> Oh yeah, _that's right_... no they didn't.


It isn't Apple's fault Adobe is slacking off.



> How can Mac be "the creative choice" when the leading creative software company can't keep pace with their frequent system revisions?


I think many creative companies out there are doing just fine with their Power Mac G5 Quads that they invested large amounts of cash in.
I had a large electronics corporation in Toronto a week or so ago in desperate need for a Mac to do circuit board comparisons. No big deal. There's enough G5s in the reseller chain (and at Apple) to sell until Adobe gets their act together.



> *Plenty* has fallen through the cracks, and Rosetta isn't that great.
> In many situations, the new Intel Macs are more capable at running Windows!!
> For example, you could take a look at all the performance surveys of Photoshop in Rosetta vs. running XP.


Plenty? Do you have any figures for that statement? Rosetta seems to do a fine good job of dealing with most PowerPC apps. And you can't compare an emulated version of Photoship with the native XP version. If you need to run Photoshop now, load XP on your Intel Mac and do it.

That's more than I can say for companies that need to run Win9.x apps on machines that need access to the internet. Only Win2k/XP offers the security to go online. But alas, they don't support legacy software. I've had pretty limited success with XP's so-called "compatibility mode". Rosetta (and Classic for that matter) fares much better.



> If I was trying to buy a G5 at launch, of course I'd prefer to have an over-supply. It would get me a better price!!! And I wouldn't have to wait 6 months for the top-end workstation.
> 
> You'd prefer to pay a premium and wait?


Oh sure the consumer sees it that way. But I doubt you had to wait 6-months for your order. And still, we all know what Apple was like when it had an oversupply of product. Just use a Time Machine and go back to 1997 when we all thought Apple was on the verge of bankrupcy.



> Irrelevant!! The fact that Apple and Dell both use the same manufacturer, and both missed the DEVISTATING production flaw indicates that they are both lacking in quality control.


Missed the "devastating problem"? The symptoms haven't exactly been witnessed very often. I've haven't heard of many cases where an iBook G4 catched fire because of a short in the battery. I've owned two PowerBook G4 12" models, both with affected batteries, and neither showed any sign of a problem. I don't blame Apple if they didn't notice that Sony or whoever manufactured the battery did a bad job. And likewise, Dell isn't to blame either. They bought the cell from Sony. They will be going back to Sony. Sony will suffer a loss. Not Dell.


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## bandersnatch (Dec 26, 2004)

Thanks to Intel Core 2 Duo and Vista, Dell should have a nice jump in sales long term (next 1-2 years), imo.


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## bandersnatch (Dec 26, 2004)

> IT departments won't recommend Apple. That's suicidal. If Macs don't get viruses, or crash, or whatever else, they have just eliminated the need for an IT department. That's why Dell will always have the corporate world.


Actually, I think it has something to do with the fact there's a ton of corporate software available on Windows which do not run on Mac. Lotus Domino or Microsoft Exchange with Blackberry Enterprise Server is one good example. Or how about MS OneNote or SharePoint services? Or Citrix? Or Great Plains Software (now known as Microsoft Dynamics) which is well known for its CRM/SCM software... and so forth.

I'm sorry, I'd highly recommend a mac for home use but no way for corporate/enterprise use unless the business is involved with media/graphics/movie editing/etc.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Fortunately for Apple, they haven't lost their niche of creative businesses and fanboys.


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## davidslegend (Jan 6, 2004)

*Dell, is important! They employ of Canadians!*



mac_mark said:


> I hope Dell is around for a long time.
> 
> They have great monitors. Amazing prices and great performance. As well, their sales are a good time to pick up peripherals.


Hi,

Dell, built a big call/service centre in Ottawa (Kanata, ON) & I've even consider going to one of their job fares. I don't see Apple Computer hiring a lot of locals here. Just how big is Apple Canada anyways?

In fact, for a time I considered switching back to PC's for a while prior boot camp & the emergence of Windows possibilities on the Mac platform (games & compatibility issues)! I thought of rewarding Dell for having a huge local presence here. 

Still you can get a nice set up of a Dual core with a big hard drive & such for less then an iMac! Maybe, Dell helps Apple keep there prices in check anyway?!

Just another plain speaking opionion for you guys to flame bbq style~

 Cheers,
davidslegend


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## wdejong (Jun 15, 2006)

davidslegend said:


> Hi,
> 
> Dell, built a big call/service centre in Ottawa (Kanata, ON) & I've even consider going to one of their job fares. I don't see Apple Computer hiring a lot of locals here. Just how big is Apple Canada anyways?


Oddly, most of the Apple call centres in Canada are for Apple US, and most of the Canadian calls get routed to call centres in the states...weird, I know.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Actually, I think it has something to do with the fact there's a ton of corporate software available on Windows which do not run on Mac. Lotus Domino or Microsoft Exchange with Blackberry Enterprise Server is one good example. Or how about MS OneNote or SharePoint services? Or Citrix? Or Great Plains Software (now known as Microsoft Dynamics) which is well known for its CRM/SCM software... and so forth.
> 
> I'm sorry, I'd highly recommend a mac for home use but no way for corporate/enterprise use unless the business is involved with media/graphics/movie editing/etc.


and if you can have your cake and eat it too???........that's what we're finding now - booting both is a HUGE advantage. I'd say a good percentage of our systems now go out with both OSes especially portables.

Dell is in a bad squeeze - too dependent on others for their technology and overheads like the call centre mentioned are costly - Dell can't hit Apple's corporate margins and gets the fallout from any MS misteps.

They need to become Amazon like as a delivery system not as a primary tech force. Lenovo may easily give them a run for the money.

Look at the MacPro - Apple elegance, Dell pricing - a brilliant physical design and Apple is clearly pulling out all stops to surf the CoreDuo progess wave.

FINALLY Apple is not hampered by "behind the curve" processor technology.......G4 started at 500 mHz how many years back and we were at what just over 3 x that when it quit just last winter.
Now we have high clock and HUGE cache and balanced design :clap:.....oh yeah - low power consumption too.

.......the flaw for Apple.....cheaping out AGAIN....on video cards in the pro machines   ....idjits....

The Pro portables and iMacs on the other hand show better balance in that regard.


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## bandersnatch (Dec 26, 2004)

> and if you can have your cake and eat it too???........that's what we're finding now - booting both is a HUGE advantage. I'd say a good percentage of our systems now go out with both OSes especially portables.


This makes sense for those running home businesses and wish to have one PC for both home and office use. 

Otherwise, if I'm running a business or IT buyer where the PC's are going to be running Windows software 24/7, I'd go with Dell.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

There is bottom up pressure for a Mac at times - where the decision lies with the user rather than the IT Dept many know the advantages just in the online area alone.
When people can choose their own tools ( any many companies don't outright buy the machines but supply a "loan", the prestige of a Mac and the flexibility for platform choice is a strong incentive.

If I were buying POS terminals for a bank or grocery chain - yep you're right tho I'd consider Lenovo as well.
For the home user or mobile professional in any field or in edu the dual aspect combined with the value for money Apple offers in it's hardware/software offerings is a huge lure.
High residual values also help.

Where I think the battle lines will be drawn are away from the cookie cutter PC arena such as POS......and having TWO strong sources , one more nimble and flexibile the other bulkier and bigger makes for a positive force in the marketplace.
Keep em both from being complacent ( that;s waht happened to Apple in the 90s - they owned the edu market ).

Dell's strength - like LaCie is being able to cherry pick good products from other manufacturers - Apple is doing much of that as well through their third party sales.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

duper said:


> But Gateway is still around.


"Get Away From Gateway"
• "Gateway can't even produce decent returns on equity. It hasn't turned in a year's worth of positive free cash flow this century."


Shades of Apple 1997? "Dark Days At Dell"
• "They're a one-trick pony. It was a great trick for over 10 years, but the rest of us have figured it out and Dell hasn't plowed any of its profits into creating a new trick."
• "Instead of adapting, critics say, Dell cut costs in ways that compromised customer service and, possibly, product quality."
• Former employees say: "They don't feel they're part of something at Dell, and they generally leave because they feel frustrated... Dell is not a fun place to work, and it's less fun now than it used to be."

What will it take to turn Dell around? Well for Apple in 1997, the founder (Steve Jobs) returned to his rightful place as iCEO. Since Dell Computer's founder (Michael Dell) is _still_ employed as its CEO, maybe the solution is for _him_ to step down and let somebody else run things. :lmao: 


"Apple's Macintosh market share soars 16 percent"
• "Buoyed by ever increasing shipments of Macintosh computers, Apple has quieted its Intel transition detractors by posting double-digit market share increases. Two market research firms have pegged Apple’s growth at over 15 percent with one giving them a 16 percent increase."


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Apple could crack the corporate market if they shipped certain computers pre-installed with Windows XP, and maybe downplayed or removed OSX from the offering. Would be a brilliant move, IMO. Or leave it dual-booting, but let the primary system be Windows.

Ahh to dream.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

ice_hackey said:


> Apple could crack the corporate market if they shipped certain computers pre-installed with Windows XP, and maybe downplayed _*or removed OSX*_ from the offering.


Sure, and while we're at it, let's cripple a BMW with a Yugo engine. 



ice_hackey said:


> Ahh to dream.


Yeah, what a nightmare.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Showtime event 'just the start' of Apple CE push
> *Apple Computer's special event this Tuesday is just the start of a steady stream of consumer electronics announcements the company plans to make over the next 6 to 9 months*, according...
> 
> *Apple may hit majestic 1M mark for notebook shipments*
> ...


Fun reading for Michael Dell.....NOT 

http://www.appleinsider.com/


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

...and now after everything else, this.
Why Dell's Gone to Hell


> Founder Michael Dell has resumed the reins at his namesake company after the unexpected resignation of CEO Kevin Rollins. But it's not clear that Michael knows how to fix Dell.
> 
> From what Dell is saying, though, it's not clear that he's got a grasp on his company's problems. He seems to think that by leaning on suppliers and making manufacturing even more efficient, Dell can squeeze costs down.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

...ouch! Dat's gotta hoit!
Dell 4Q Earnings Slide 33 Percent on Weak Sales of Laptop and Notebook Computers



> Dell Inc.'s fourth-quarter profits plunged 33 percent because of weak sales of laptops and notebooks, and the computer maker still faces an unresolved federal accounting probe, customer service complaints, several shareholder lawsuits and stiff competition from rivals.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

This even more

TWICE the market cap of Dell and Apple is at 1/3 of Microsofts!!!!



> Apple now valued at over $100 billion
> 
> By Slash Lane
> Published: 01:00 PM EST
> ...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

'nuff said


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> 'nuff said


:lmao: :lmao: :clap: 
Perfect!

But interestingly, I met a Dell trainer this weekend and although we talked 'puters a bit, he never once said the words "Microsoft", or "Windows". 
However, when talking about his work, he did more than once utter the word "Linux".


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> *Dell takes huge hit as Apple laptop sales soar
> 'Halo effect' generated by demand for iPhones has caused a transformation in Apple's laptop sales*
> 
> By Jonny Evans, Macworld.co.uk, IDG News Service
> ...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Having owned 5 Dell computers and 5 Apple computers, I think that any "death knell" for either company is too premature. Both companies make very good computers. The main difference is which operating system is inside, which is another reason for Apple's rise in sales. Dell was smart when they refused to cut potential buyers off from Windows XP and be foreced to take Vista. 

My last two purchases have been an Apple and Dell laptop. So, it is now Apple's turn. Would love the new iMac, but can't afford one, so I shall get a MacMini, which gets me iLife '08. Now, all I have to do is decide whether to wait for Leopard in the Fall or get one now. We shall see.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

A similar article that states that Apple is 3rd in marketshare in the US.

Macworld: News: Apple's notebook market share climbs to 17.6 percent


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## hUssain (Aug 10, 2007)

I would never purchase a Dell, I hate the Dell guy 

It's only a matter of time for Dell, HP, Toshiba, Gateway, etc. to be replaced by other companies. This is something that happens a lot in the computer world. It's no surprise that Dell is having all sorts of issues.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

To Go along with what MacDoc posted:





































Sources:
AppleInsider | Apple seeing "unprecedented" surge in MacBook demand

AppleInsider | Fourth quarter Apple Mac and iPhone sales ahead of expectations


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

duper said:


> But Gateway is still around.


Nope. As of now, Gateway is Acer. Goodbye Gateway. Who's next?...


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Bjornbro said:


> Nope. As of now, Gateway is Acer. Goodbye Gateway. Who's next?...


I read that. I can't believe Acer would take such a terrible company. It might tarnish Acer's growing brand name.


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

Kosh said:


> I read that. I can't believe Acer would take such a terrible company. It might tarnish Acer's growing brand name.


I wonder if they'll keep Gateway around, or swallow 'em up never to be seen again.

Of course, along with Gateway goes Amiga, IIRC.


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## hUssain (Aug 10, 2007)

BlueMax said:


> I wonder if they'll keep Gateway around, or swallow 'em up never to be seen again.
> 
> Of course, along with Gateway goes Amiga, IIRC.


I belive they will, as far as I can tell, Acer is poor brand name with a poor foothold in NA, Gateway on the other hand has a better brand name (I said better, not good) and a much larger foothold in NA. It seems Gateway and eMachine will continue their rain of cow spotted terror.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

Adding the "death of a giant?" thread for the sake of posterity. Tick, tock... beejacon

Meanwhile, Apple has recently opened a third store in New York, the only three-story retail location of its kind.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

This was front page news in today's Edmonton Journal:

900 jobs lost as Dell bolts

Rising wages offset cheap lease, tax breaks


EDMONTON - Dell Canada will close its Edmonton call centre after only three years, putting more than 900 people out of work.

The computer giant said the city's hot economy and the strong Canadian dollar were partially responsible for the decision to close the facility.

"This has been a difficult decision," Edmonton site leader Dave Vanden Bosch said in a news release. "We have a good team of people, and will do all we can to help them and our community partners through this transition."

Dell came to Edmonton after signing a 20-year lease deal at Edmonton Research Park, and has consistently touted the call centre as a top-performing global facility.

900 jobs lost as Dell bolts


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

It's interesting SINC, that Dull is blaming the red hot Alberta (esp. Edmonton) economy. Trouble with that scenario is the following:

1. It shows that they care nothing for the quality of people they employ.
2. They are closing all 140 odd mall kiosks in the US, regardless of location.
3. Their marketshare is going nowhere and they have entirely failed to succeed in a tangential market (even Microsoft has had some success with the Xbox).
4. Businesses are provided a North American call centre service whereas domestic buyers are relayed off-shore.
5. For months, they had the Edmonton employees actually train up call centre personnel from indonesia where the business will be transferred. The oil sands boom hasn't exactly crept up on anyone.

Dull stock has languished for months and even these severe cutbacks have failed to get a jump from the markets (job cuts are perversely associated with share price rises). Suggests that these moves are being seen as an indication that Dull's razor thin profit/high volume/low overhead model is on the decline. They're joining the ranks of commodity PC manufacturers.

Ironically, I very much doubt this move will encourage Edmontonians (heck, Albertans and Canadians in general) to spend their economic gains on Dull hardware and given the doldrums in consumer confidence in the US coupled to the dollar parity, I'd be chasing our market if i were a US based company.

P.S. Nice to see Peter Lougheed has been making the news lately. Now there's a guy with foresight.....


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

I forget the details but Dell recently announced they are canceling plans t expand their Ottawa call center.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Nice to see Peter Lougheed has been making the news lately. Now there's a guy with foresight..


maybe some Norwegian blood?? 
••

Dell is trapped - all they have is a business model that is easily duplicated - there is nothing proprietary about their products.
They are re-branding and up against majors with their own manufacturing and design and vertical structure.

Not enough room for them and the brand is not all that strong.
Be smart if they sold to a comer like Asis......


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

But it worked for Michael Dell for 20 years or so. The problem was that it wasn't the products that differentiated Dell, it was their JIT ordering, web-sales focus and lack of retail presence. Funnel everyone into the low cost portal which just happens to give you fantastic, accurate sales and component need data, and sit back. 10 years ago, Dell had the internet model for sales and logistical management down to a tee. They were their own SAP. In part, their overhead for the operation was small because it cut out the fat "macdoc" middleman  Of course, that's also why Dell became synonymous with low levels of support, poor matching of hardware to needs and all of the other value-adds that a retail channel supplies. Dell then realised that laptop sales increased if people could test them out, hence the mall kiosks. But its not as though any new Dell laptop is innovative in design or capabilities (Alienware excepted).

Will anyone notice if Dell disappears? At least Gateway had distinctive boxes.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Dell dropped the V from VAR, 

Caught between the cache of Apple ( and the subsequent profits for Apple Corp) and volume of manufacturers going direct.

HP seems to have found a good balance after floundering for several years.

I don't see the same for Dell unless they buy an emerging winner or get bought.

If the stock falls enough a Chinese manufacturer will snap it up.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Dell is becoming a victim of the market, not its own business or management.

The truth is that the Windows market has plateaued. Dell continues to make buckets o cash, but the reason their stock is flat is because they can no longer GROW in that market. Apple OTOH has nothing BUT growth room. Wall Street loves growth and hates stagnation, even if you're making a billion a month. It's crazy logic.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's only Dell's management fault in that they did not recognize that risk and partner up or move out of the trap earlier.

Continous sales means they are floundering all over the place. In my view they have no safe harbour at this point.

Buying Asus might be a smart move.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Now Dell introduced it's touch screen tablet-the Dell XT. It looks sooo ugly compared to the IBM-Lenovo ones. And they even made a desktop background that looks like Mac's!

But that's talking about PC's. For now, the best tiny mac is the MacBook Air. Maybe they will put a touch screen in it soon?


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

I hesitate to jump into the boiling water, so I'll keep it brief.
I've been running IT departments for more years than I'd like to admit, for big companies that have highly complex environments, including very large specialized Mac deployments.
The requirements are about the business, not about the technology. For that reason, the decisions that go into a deployment of hundreds to thousands of workstations that require flexible and varied business usage are fundamentally different than for smaller (or more specialized) deployments.
Anyone that thinks that macs would eliminate the need for an IT department is dreaming in technicolour. This site is filled with deeply knowledgeable technical resources who help each other wrestle through pile of complicated issues daily. Lets be clear....this is not the profile of the average computer user, including Mac users. I've watched my support staff deal with long time mac users in a major newsroom, and frankly the problems and issues and grumbling are very similar to what happens in a Windows environment.
In the corporate world, if you manage it well and have good practices then your technology will work for you, regardless of platform. If you don't manage it well, then it will be Hell, regardless of the logo on the machine.


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

I like Apple computers. Not so thrilled that replaceable video card options are so weak or nonexistent, and I've never met an Apple made mouse that I've ever remotely liked, but I think in a home environment they are great machines.

In a corporate world, without hesitation, I'd chose Dell\Windows deployments over Apple.

Repair, upgrade and replacement of Dell components are cheap and fast -usually next day, and I'm living on an Island.... You cannot say the same for an iMac or MBP.

Dell also has a pretty decent corporate discount for businesses. I don't think they are disappearing off the map any time soon.

Aside from ensuring software is fully compatible on an OS ( Active Directory, Exchange, SQL Server, Mitel VOIP software and other 3rd Party apps, etc for Windows, and perhaps iWork/QT projects developed on a Mac) there is also a need to lock and secure systems. IT needs to reduce software incompatibility conflicts, ensure users can't access certain files on the network, lock down a kiosk box in the front office, whatever it might be... I simply don't think OSX Server can match MS's desktop management thru Group Policy, MOM, and WSUS services. 

And when those days come where a machine simply misbehaves because of a corrupt configuration file of some kind, support.microsoft.com and MSDN has offered far greater troubleshooting resources than support.apple.com has given me.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

jicon said:


> Not so thrilled that replaceable video card options are so weak or nonexistent


I have never had the need to replace the video in any of my Apple systems. They work, they accomplish the job without muss or fuss. That is more than I can say about half the video card garbage that is available for PCs, where one must continually fool around with dain bramaged drivers and a myriad of incompatibilities.



> I've never met an Apple made mouse that I've ever remotely liked


Personal preferences. I really do like the Pro Mouse, well built and has never caused me any grief. I thought the Mighty Mouse was dorky, and the little 'scroll button' a waste. But again, that is personal preference. Apple's mice are far better than the dross that populates the PC world. I have been quite happy with my Logitech Mighty Mouse, which I purchased because it was a good price and I wanted a trackball in order to save the top of my desk. If you don't like Apple mice, then use a Logitech or something...



> In a corporate world, without hesitation, I'd chose Dell\Windows deployments over Apple.


If my job depended upon spending my days eliminating viruses and replacing parts in deficient systems - then I too would like crummy Dell machines with the Windoze Virus Oeprating System.



> Repair, upgrade and replacement of Dell components are cheap and fast


And that you will do many, many times... I have only ever had a hard drive go in one of my iMacs, and I only busted the CD-ROM in my iBook because of my own malfeasance. But to each their own. Dell builds junk out of junk parts made by slave labour at the cheapest possible price - you get what you pay for.



> IT needs to reduce software incompatibility conflicts, ensure users can't access certain files on the network, lock down a kiosk box in the front office, whatever it might be... I simply don't think OSX Server can match MS's desktop management thru Group Policy, MOM, and WSUS services.


You are right, OSX Server can not match MS's lack of security and myriad of design flaws. "Group Policy", when will the Evil Empire ever get it and submit to the fact that UNIX based systems are far better in every regard...



> And when those days come where a machine simply misbehaves because of a corrupt configuration file of some kind, support.microsoft.com and MSDN has offered far greater troubleshooting resources than support.apple.com has given me.


Mostly because the Evil Empire is far superior in creating crummy soiftware that can so easily clobber itself. I have never had any major issues with OSX software, and I have never sustained any kind of crash, except for the time I inadvertently caused a kernel panic by selecting over a hundred large jpg files with Graphic Converter X, the rendering of which conflicted with the hard drive going south. Then I ran Windoze, I had a major crash at least once a month that would lead me to reinstall the whole thing.

So for IT people, well, a world without Windoze would be a world of unemployment for most of them. Most of the IT people I know can't keep a machine running for any length of time - something that pretty much every Apple user can do without thinking...


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

"So for IT people, well, a world without Windoze would be a world of unemployment for most of them. Most of the IT people I know can't keep a machine running for any length of time - something that pretty much every Apple user can do without thinking..."


I totally disagree with this. I worked in an environment where we had over 600 Macs running QuarkXPress and Adobe Photoshop, plus other specialized publishing apps; as well as about 800 PCs running Windows that were doing normal back office type stuff.
As far as hardware support/break/fix goes, the amount of effort and cost was about 60% PC environment; 40% Mac. So Mac had the edge.
As far as deskside user support went (which was a FAR greater proportion of our total workload) the Mac users needed as much or more support. We had the Windows environment highly standardized and locked down; and we had well defined perimeter defenses so viruses were basically a non issue. We weren't asking the windows machines to do anything really challenging, so the environment remained very stable. The Macs had to handle very challenging page layout, version control, and pre press software routines, and it took a lot of user support to keep things going.
This technology is complex on both platforms, and the average user is not a technophile. They got frustrated on both platforms.
In this environment I wouldn't have changed anything. The PCs were perfectly suited to the way we were using them, and the Macs were as well. 
It's all about the business. One can never consider the technology in isolation of the business use, particularly in a large corporate environment.

If we want to discuss consumer use, at home or in a small business, it's a totally different conversation.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

Oh, and one more thing....

The comment about most of the IT people not being able to keep a machine running is highly unfair and totally insulting.

I have had many years working with support staff who have extremely elegant diagnostic saavy and deep technical skill sets. They were excellent at maintaining and troubleshooting problems.

Where all IT staff (including Mac support staff) fall down is when they fall prey to the arrogance of the technically knowledgeable; ie, deciding the rest of the world is stupid because they don't speak Unix. These are the people who don't have much future, at least not where I work.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

mc3251 said:


> The comment about most of the IT people not being able to keep a machine running is highly unfair and totally insulting.
> 
> I have had many years working with support staff who have extremely elegant diagnostic saavy and deep technical skill sets. They were excellent at maintaining and troubleshooting problems.


Then you do work in a very unusual environment. Almost all IT people that I have seen are nothing more than people who just reinstall Windoze at any given turn. They do no real work, and no real system maintenance or diagnostics. They always say "it is just like that, it's the way it works", then go ahead an wipe everything out. If it is insulting, it should be, because the vast majority of people that call themselves IT people are nothing more than CD jockeys that can not, nor are qualified, to fix anything. This may or may not be peculiar to The Hammer. To be able to work in an environment that is not like that is at once unusual and refreshing, to say the least. ut then again, I would think twice about working in an environment that is utterly reliant on a virus based fake OS like Windoze.

I must say that I have never been able to use Windoze myself. I have never had the patience to attempt to get it to run, nor have I ever found resources to get it to run. I have always deferred to other enviroments: anything from nasty old CP/M, DOS, RT-11, VMS or whatever. But then again, I have never pawned myself off as an IT person, and I have never made gradiose claims to Windoze knowledge. I can only be witness to the lack of professionalism of those that I have witnessed that made a claim to know anything about IT. So for myself, based on my experiences with Windoze over the past twenty years, it is simply not a system that I will ever understand or be able to run.

Dell is in trouble because they are too closely linked to the while Windoze environment. They do not support Linux, which means that they will never really be able to get their machinery into professional computing environments or large networks. And the fact that they can no longr supply Windoze XP is a pretty major failure when it comes to Corporates, because Corporates are really thinking twice about being swindled once again by the Evil Empire. They have fairly new machines and huge investments - all torn up because Vista is incompatible with all of them. They also have a bad rap for poor warranty coverage and poor support - things which people do expect. Perhaps I should not pass judgement, since Dell has never made a machine that I would buy or use...


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

jicon said:


> And when those days come where a machine simply misbehaves because of a corrupt configuration file of some kind, support.microsoft.com and MSDN has offered far greater troubleshooting resources than support.apple.com has given me.


I like Apple's Support, it's quite supportful, never seemed to have problems. I've only had to go to Apple's support pages a few times to get some manuals. Since macs have less problems than PC's, you don't need to worry about online support. In a Windows Environment, I like HP's support best because it's easy to get to manuals and other stuff like that.

EDIT: And there's no configuration file on Mac's so that is not to worry about either.


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## VictorDTarsus (Sep 12, 2007)

All I know is that my old dead DELL Dimension 4550's power supply exploded into a shower of 1500 dollar fireworks out of the back of the computer. I lost three HDDs because they were toasted instantly and all my memory was reduced to crispy critters. I sold the GPU to a friend and was able to salvage one of the four drives I had in the machine to use as an external USB drive for my Mac Mini with a good external enclosure kit. I'll never buy another DELL anything, as with HP who;s crap computer was even worse than the DELL, but I don't care about that


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

This just keeps getting more and more sad... :lmao: 

Dell is apparently ready to take another beating in the portable music player market, according to this morning's Wall Street Journal.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Bjornbro said:


> This just keeps getting more and more sad... :lmao:
> 
> Dell is apparently ready to take another beating in the portable music player market, according to this morning's Wall Street Journal.


I didn't even know they made a portable music player! The iPod pretty much rules the roost, with a smattering of the Creative ZEN and the iRiver stuff at the bottom end. Oh, and the three Zunes that sold in Canada in the past few weeks since the big intro day. (The Zune is less popular since they disco'd the baby poo coloured model.)

Dell is being nibbled at by everyone, especially ASUS on the bottom end of the notebook market, and the fact that many people are considering Apple these days. Their business is also hampered by the reluctance of corporates to scrap all of their machines to make the move to Fi$ta, considering that they had to convince their Directors to scrap the Windoze 98 machines for XP. Plus, I think the "build your own" is a fairly popular option, especially with Gamers since Dell's machines are never up to snuff.


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## The Shadow (Oct 28, 2006)

Dell cuts great deals for corporate/educational customers. No, they're not going anywhere anytime soon.


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## The Shadow (Oct 28, 2006)

EvanPitts said:


> Then you do work in a very unusual environment. Almost all IT people that I have seen are nothing more than people who just reinstall Windoze at any given turn. They do no real work, and no real system maintenance or diagnostics. ...


EP, I don't think anyone troubleshoots Windows anymore, it's just not worth the time. Picking apart registry entries and kernel protection reports just takes too long and is not worth the money. Sometimes I wonder myself what the point is of becoming an MCP, MCSE, STD, OPP or XYZ. My partner and I recently landed a sizeable computer service contract for a large firm that has on its payroll a good number of computer "technicians" and IT personnel. 

Now don't get me wrong here, I appreciate the business they are sending our way. That business comprises mostly hardware and software troubleshooting/repairs. I'm wondering why is it that they got all this staff on hand who are, I guess I'll have to use the word allegedly, specialized in A+, CISCO, CRISCO, and all the other acronyms listed above, but still need us to do their work. The "technicians" don't even know how to do component-level testing or diagnostics. How can you be in the computer service business and not be able to analyze component-level defects on motherboards?

All in all, EP, I believe your viewpoint has merit. It is very likely that you don't see these "highly-trained" personnel perform any of the activities you mention because they may not know how to do it.

BTW, I am one of those people who reinstalls Windows regularly. I'm not gonna waste good time and money f**king around with registry entries, system logs or bother removing spyware by hand.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
It's all about having some letters after the name...

It irritated me to no end the few times I actually used Windoze, when I ran into a problem, none of the "experts" in "IT" knew anything. They couldn't even get my printer to run. They suggested reinstalling Windoze, which I had already installed and was just trying to get the printer to run. But then again, I have a severe dislike of Windoze, and I have had that since I first got stiffed running it for a Canberra NMR system twenty years ago.

I think the biggest problem with Windoze is the whole "registry", since it seems to be the root of many afflictions. And from my experience, other problems stem from all of those DLL files scattered around.

But the so called "techs" these days really are at a disconnect, seeing as most of them have never actually even assembled a computer, let alone knowing how they work. Included in that are those who have never used any other system but Windoze. When I started, one had to use a wide variety of systems, and for me at one job I had, I not only had to be able to use (though not administer) a large VMS system, but had to be pretty quick to pick up on RT-11, CP/M, and a number of old systems loaded from magnetic tape or even punched tape. So it is hard for me to think of someone that has only used a GUI like Windoze; when in my day, the he-men booted their machines by entering the appropriate machine language codes manually...

It is also bothersome when I can not even find a technician that can fix my girlfriend's system properly. I wish she could run an Apple, it would be so much easier for me. But then, it would be easier for me if she ran a VMS system, a PDP-11, a SunSparc, or whatever. Windoze absolutely baffles me to no end.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Another "clang" 



> Acer’s Everywhere. How Did That Happen?
> 
> nytimes.com — Acer, based in Taiwan, is on a pace to overtake Dell as the second-biggest PC maker, propelled by its low-cost laptops and netbooks.More… (Software)


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/technology/companies/28acer.html?_r=2&ref=technology

Notable - Apple is missing entirely in the discussion but hell that's okay - this thread is to diss Dell 

I wonder if Michael is cutting cheques to return the funds to share buyers.....


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm hardly a person to defend Dell -- I won't let ANYTHING with that name on it into my house -- but this "death knell" thread is three years old now. Dell isn't king of the mountain anymore, but they're evidently far from dead.

(Though they might have died a while back if they hadn't discovered a lucrative market selling good-quality monitors to cheapskate Apple users at bargain prices ...


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

*Dell on the knell?*

It is interesting to see all the Apple bandwagoners. First, let's put things in there proper perspective.....while Apple make computers, it is the OS that stands them from the rest....that being said, the markups to the rise in Apple stock have been due to iTunes, iPod, and most recently, iPhone....not computers.

It is only recently that Macs have been rising....remember the lean years....it wasn't all that long ago....remember the Microsoft capital infusion [ possible to avoid U.S. antitrust ]...also remember the Newton [ I think Apple gave up too early on that one ]....all industries have their ups and downs....The trouble with Dell, Gateway, HP/Compaq, et al is there is too much competition....and slim margins.

Apple's only real selling feature over these manufacturers is the OS. Let's see what happens with Windows 7. Vista was a bust, so we will have to see if Microsoft is a fast learner, then we can see what happens, as if it approaches the Mac OS, we'll see if that, and their "ours costs less" campaign will dent into Apple's sales on computers....which, I think, still is active in the contribution margin of the company.


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## ct77 (Mar 10, 2005)

Rps said:


> Apple's only real selling feature over these manufacturers is the OS.


You can't be serious. You get what you pay for. Apple makes quality hardware. There are very few PC manufacturers that can match Apple on design and hardware quality. Or do all the industrial design awards that Apple has won mean nothing?


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

*ct77*

I realise that Macs are an emotional issue on this site, but take a step back from your passion about Macs and look at the business case.

Apple is only now emerging from the perception that it is a niche market computer manufacturer....look at the global sales volume of PC compared to Macs...the numbers speak for themselves.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not a Mac basher, I agree they make great machines, but so do HP, IBM, ....what makes a Mac great [ style aside ] is the OS and how it seamlessly works with its applications.

Apple has grown some sales in the business sector, and that is where it counts, that means it is slowly moving to mainstreet.....which is a good thing.

It's whether it can stay there that is the rub.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Rps said:


> I realise that Macs are an emotional issue on this site, but take a step back from your passion about Macs and look at the business case.
> 
> Apple is only now emerging from the perception that it is a niche market computer manufacturer....look at the global sales volume of PC compared to Macs...the numbers speak for themselves.
> 
> ...


My dad's company switched to Macs three years ago for the office, production/shipping & receiving are on their own network and they use PCs. 

But, when moving his 37 computers to Mac in the office, he noticed that his IT bill (external company) dropped by about 45%, with less call ins. I talked to him about it, and he said that the occasional call when something major happens that can't be fixed by the user still happens, but the daily incidentals are non existent, much less frequent and in most cases are able to be fixed very quickly by the user. 

That is the point of view of a small business owner (~350 employees). It made a lot of sense for him to switch to Macs. Perhaps, when you have thousands of computers, the investment is too daunting. He just has an XRAID server. I suppose, if you had a very large, room sized server to work with PCs, it would be a different story.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

RPS - perhaps you need to go back and read the original post.

Then YOU step back and look at the financial condition of Dell versus Apple and tell me who exactly should be returning the shareholders investment back them and winding up the company.

Anything else you claim is irrelevant to that reality.

Dell's problem all along is all they are is a badge..



















As someone cracked...._Apple could buy all of Dell's stock with the loose change from their 25 billion in the bank, put it on a bonfire along with the rest of the company and it wouldn't even ripple Apple's financial position._

It would however open the university market a bit more....


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

ct77 said:


> You can't be serious. You get what you pay for. Apple makes quality hardware. There are very few PC manufacturers that can match Apple on design and hardware quality. Or do all the industrial design awards that Apple has won mean nothing?


I'd say that Apple quality has slipped significantly, and they are putting a lot more crud onto the market, like fake video systems and cheap 6-bit displays. But then, Apple does not compete with Dell. Dell is the cheapest, nastiest stuff made by the lowest possible bidder, with some of the worst customer service in the world. No wonder why Acer is overhauling them.

The OS is a major differentiation. Apple offers a progressive minded, modern OS based on UNIX - though in my opinion, it has become an overbloated with unnecessary frills that can't be shut off. Dell (and the PC makers) are stuck with cruddy old Windoze, retrograde in all respects, with little or no support for older (or newer) perpherals, with a hard to use GUI and some of the worst, most bloated software possible. Plus, with Apple, you actually get the real OS on disk - while PC makers usually stiff the consumer with some fake "restore" disk garbage.

When it comes to the majority of tasks, the Apple is clearly superior, especially when it comes to audio, video, graphics, word processing, and other general tasks, as well as providing a secure and easy to use system. However, the PC is much further ahead when it comes to certain niches, like CAD/CAM, or programming, or interfacing to data acquision boards or PLCs...

Apple is not without some major blind spots, like the lack of a Netbook, which is a popular category these days (or even a 12" laptop to replace the iBook would be nice), or a Minitower which would have some expansion room for media users without resorting to the high costs and giant volume of a MacPro. I think Apple also lacks some selection in devices. Like say if you want a 20" iMac - you can't get it with a good LCD, and you can't get it without the built in Camera garbage. Or if you want a MacBook but want FireWire, you are very limited on models to pick from, even though it could be a simple, $2 option for those that need to run external drives...

Dell is a big company with lots of corporates, and perhaps the main problem they are having now is the fact that corporates are generally not going to Fi$ta at all, meaning that giant sales of lots of systems to single corporate buyers has dried up. Windoze 7 won't fix it either, because the corporates are rejecting any changes to software, like not adopting DOCX, simply because the costs of conversion are far too high.

Apple doesn't have this problem because most older software will entirely run on newer versions of OSX, and those that don't have fairly competent migration routes. Apple also does not rely on big corporates either - their business is more about the home user, professional artists kinds of people - people that Dell does not cater to at all.


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## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

Rps said:


> ....Don't misunderstand me, I am not a Mac basher, I agree they make great machines, but so do HP, IBM, .....


I totally disagree.... IBM doesn't even make personal machines anymore. Its seems that Dells quality and competitive adavantage has completely gone away. I am typing on an HP right now, but I don't trust their products so much now because they just flood the market with a million different models with all similar parts. I think HP is more concerned about marketsharea and profits and not focused on the quality of the product. For example they fill their machines with tons of crapware, that cannot be removed easily.

In no way am I trying to be an Apple cheerleader or a basher of PC makers, but I find that Apple spends more time actually considering the final product, and I find it superior to a comparable PC even with both running windows.

With that said I am typing from an HP desktop, it runs ok... Can't read CD's because of the HP CD/DVD burner but can read DVD's, overall it runs well, its not a bad machine, but there needs to be more taken into account when they design and build models.

I had used an old Dell laptop, worked well, service was iffy, but I don't feel that they are the same company they used to be, seems more like they are struggling to keep afloat, I am afraid that they will sacrifice quality for sales.

Take this in no way as me challenging your opinion, just stating my own.


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## Niteshooter (Aug 8, 2008)

Wonder how their corporate sales are? We just re-equipped the newsroom with Dell cpus and monitors. IT seems to like them though the quality is not what it used to be. Granted so is Apples....

K


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

EvanPitts said:


> Apple is not without some major blind spots, like the lack of a Netbook…


Actually, Apple has been making well-functioning netbooks for a good three years now. They're called iPhones and iPod Touches. They also make a great pocket-sized Kindle. It's called an iPhone or iPod Touch. So, it's all good. Why mess with that?


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## jmlachance (Nov 6, 2005)

*Acer's on the way up...*

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/technology/companies/28acer.html?em


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Rps said:


> It is only recently that Macs have been rising.


This isn't true. A quick look at annual sales reports will show you (and anyone) that Apple has been managing a steady, slow growth since before Bush was in office. The pace quickened when the iPod, and then the iPhone, caught on -- but it was happening before either of those devices made it big.



> ...remember the lean years....it wasn't all that long ago.


I remember it well, as I was working for Apple at the time. The "lean years" were 97-99. That was over a decade ago, or an "eon" in the computer biz. 



> ...remember the Microsoft capital infusion [ possible to avoid U.S. antitrust ].


I cannot believe people still get this as wrong as they do. Sigh.

Rather than waste time typing it out again (honestly, I should make it a macro), I will instead refer you to Owen Linzmeyer's "Apple Confidential" for the *correct* story on MS and Apple during that period ... suffice to say it is not widely (correctly) known, even to most Apple diehards, because of a cascade of complete BS nonsense that the press have perpetrated ever since it happened.



> also remember the Newton [ I think Apple gave up too early on that one ].


I can't argue with this, but it wasn't one of Jobs' projects, so when he got involved with the company, it (and all traces of the old regime) had to go. Palm was already killing the Newton anyway (irony!!), because *once again* the market said that "good enough and cheaper" was preferable to "outstanding but pricey."

Some have argued (me among them) that all Steve Jobs has _really_ done for Apple -- besides providing a pool of insanely smart NeXT execs, and some adult supervision -- is shown them with a way to make "outstanding" not SO pricey, and amp up the "cool" factor and the *value* to the point that affluent consumers no longer care about the remaining cost differential. This worked well in good economic times, and now the reputation (and continued excellence) is carrying them through the bad economic times ...



> The trouble with Dell, Gateway, HP/Compaq, et al is there is too much competition....and slim margins.


Because they don't actually MAKE things. They all just assemble various generic parts in slightly different ways, slap a sugarcoating of their own paint and bling on it, and call it a brand.

Apple continues to actually make _products_ (and higher-margin items like software), as in complete packages, that attract an audience. Dell and HP both make adequate Windows PCs, but are not really any different from one another.

To put it another way ... HP is McDonald's, Dell is Burger King, and Apple is the finest fresh-cut selections of beef lovingly seasoned and made into patties by specially-trained French chefs who then use the best possible grills to cook your burger into the finest, juiciest, most succulant hamburger you've ever had in your life, served to you by the most unbelievably charming and beautiful server you've ever encountered.

For roughly about $2 more than the pimply-faced emo kid working at MickeyD or BK will sell it to ya. 



> Apple's only real selling feature over these manufacturers is the OS.


Au contraire! You have clearly not heard the wistful longings of the G4 "lampshade" iMac fans as they rhapsodize about the stunning design -- tears coming to their eyes in nostalgic joy -- nor read the many pages of EhMac forum postings singing the praises of the Pismo's durability, the iMac's eerie silence, the MacBook Air's uncanny ability to attract chicks.

The OS is a big part of the attraction, to be sure, but the hardware is CLEARLY a cut above, and people of taste and intelligence value this, as well as some of Apple's other "intangible" differences. Nobody posts unboxing videos of a Blackberry Storm on YouTube, ya know what I'm sayin'?



> Let's see what happens with Windows 7.


Yes, let's give MS yet ANOTHER chance to lie to us about how much better it will be THIS time, because all the previous decades they've spent lying to us about how the problems will get fixed NEXT TIME WE SWEAR were all just practice and THIS time it will work, it will be glorious, virus-and-spyware-free, and besides -- typography and aesthetic design are overrated and for snobs anyway.

Hello, Charlie Brown? This is Lucy. I have a new football ...



> Vista was a bust, so we will have to see if Microsoft is a fast learner


Yes, because Vista was after all, to be fair, MS's first attempt at an operating system. I'm sure their second attempt will be WAY better. They're such quick learners down there in Redmond :lmao:



> and their "ours costs less" campaign will dent into Apple's sales on computers....which, I think, still is active in the contribution margin of the company.


1. It hasn't so far ... of course, I'm still puzzled at how those can't-miss Seinfeld ads didn't seem to catch on ... :lmao:

2. Naturally they try to work this angle during a severe recession, but even the poor can tell the overwhelming (inadvertent) theme of MS's latest ads, which is "Apple is the cool kid, and the one you really want. You may have to settle for something not as good, but at least it's cheaper."

3. People who have actually looked into the "ours costs less" idea closely (which, admittedly, many consumers don't do) have found this concept to be, surprise surprise, grossly exaggerated and financially misleading.

To be sure, many people will once again try to kick MS's football. And maybe they won't land on their backs in failure quite as hard (THIS time) as they have in the past. Win7 *has* to be better than Vista, by virtue of the fact that it really couldn't be any _worse_.

But even the best-case scenario presupposes that Apple will never get much beyond where they are right now with their own operating system, that they won't progress enough in the future, thus MS will, eventually, catch up and even surpass them on every widely-accepted score.

This is a highly flawed assumption, in my view. MS doesn't really have the DNA to surpass Apple's aesthetics, their CEO is a complete goofball (and lying maroon to boot) and Apple doesn't seem to have any plans to stop innovating anytime soon.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Oh dear, this is rather like shooting fish in a barrel isn't it?



Rps said:


> Apple is only now emerging from the perception that it is a niche market computer manufacturer.


A niche entirely invented by, and perpetrated by, the Windows-biased PC "tech" press. Of course, now that they all have iPhones and iPods ... oh look, their perception of Apple as a viable computer maker is changing! Fancy that! 

In point of fact, Apple's been in the top half-dozen or so of computer makers for years, if you compare it to individual brands rather than to the entirety of the rest of the computing industry as a whole ...



> ...look at the global sales volume of PC compared to Macs...the numbers speak for themselves.


Yes, let's look at the total number of non-Ford cars, then compare that to the number of Ford cars ... hmmm, doesn't look too good for Ford, does it? :lmao:



> I agree they make great machines, but so do HP, IBM,


LOL, hey how ARE things back in 1996? Damn I miss Clinton and Gore ...



> Apple has grown some sales in the business sector, and that is where it counts


Yes, there's no money in the consumer market. :lmao:

Seriously, what colour is the sky on your planet??

Apple doesn't give a flying crap about the business market, as illustrated by their dearth of business products, business computers and business focus. The reason is that the business market is run by completely idiotic IT nazis who care about price and job security above all, two things Apple will never, ever give them.

Most "business computers" are in offices where they serve as a combination of porn server, radio tuner, timekiller/gameplayer and occasionally for people to tap out BS sales estimates, spreadsheets, cooked accounting reports and other blah-blah for the pointy-haired boss. You don't need a Mac for that, heck most business could have stuck with DOS and gotten by just fine for the last 20 years.

Apple does very well with businesses where productivity actually directly equals money -- the self-employed, photographers, pro video and audio, print/advertising/publishing, freelancers etc. Where Apple *chooses* to compete, they generally do very well. They prefer to select a few key areas where they think they can make a positive difference (such as cell phones, music players and laptops) and tend to dominate in a smaller pond rather than do a mediocre job of being all things to all people (hello, MS!).

Even where Apple doesn't dominate, they have a strong influence. I remember when the xserve came out and the entire industry SCOFFED at the idea of ATA drives in them. Heh. Not to mention the scorn heaped on Apple by cell phone makers/telcos ... particularly for the notion of "soft" touchscreen keypads ... prior to the iPhone actually coming out ...

Apple wouldn't mind at all if smarter business people decided they wanted more Macs around because they don't get viruses/spyware, crash less often, can run any operating system you want and increase productivity, sure ... but that's CLEARLY not their goal, not what they are pursuing, and not where they seem to have found the billions and billions of dollars they make every quarter.

Apple seems to be under the (nutty!) impression that their "target audience" are well-educated, reasonably affluent consumers who are creative and internet-savvy and want devices that work well, operate harmoniously with the software and have an OS that acts as much as possible as an unintrusive extension of their own abilities. So far, this bizarro notion seems to be working out pretty well for them -- given the recent economy, it's even more impressive than it was this time last year! Looked at MS stock performance over the past few years lately??

Windows has its place, and its value, and I don't mean to denigrate that. Not every job requires a pretty, elegant, creative and human-centred operating system (in fact, many are better off _without_ those things) and so if Windows didn't exist and Macs were the only computers around, Apple would have had to have invented something not dissimilar (let's call it "Mac OS X Retarded") to fill the gap (though one hopes they would have made it at least more reliable than MS has!).

But inferring that Windows is equal to/superior to Mac OS X, or that PCs are equal /superior to Macs by virtue of their greater penetration and their lower price is like saying that there are no better hamburgers than McDonald's hamburgers. :lmao:


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

*Not to disagree but....*

MacDoc, you do have a point, as does EP, however you are looking at the consolidated report for Dell, and all manufacturer's for that matter when they report.

Apple does not report a financial for its computers and one for the other products...I would say that Apple is lucky to have been creative enough to produce iTunes, iPod and iPhone....if we could see the computer sales as a single report you may see that they are not to far from Dell and the others...this is a brutal market right now, who survives depends on how much liquidity they have built up


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
I think that Apple has really capitalized on things like the iPod, and have assumed the leadership position in that market, and of getting those products into traditional slaes outlets - which their computers really had not had in years.

With the gaps in Apple's lineup, there is lots of room for the competition, though the competition for the most part are Fi$ta only - which really is hurting them. I think the business market has really declined to take on Fi$ta, mostly because the costs associated with buying all now machines to handle it, as welll as having to scrap all sorts of peripherals. But then, Apple is not without looming problems - their deal with Intel will be running out, and they really have to find a processor that can step into the gap. Jobs had trashed the PPC because he couldn't get a 3GHz G5 into a laptop - but then his much vaulted Intel stuff took almost 4 years to get to that point, and it is barely at that point. Nothing has been heard from PA Semi either. It may very well be that Apple is more concentration on consumer devices like the iPhone, iPod and iTouch because they make big money and have market leadership, while allowing their computer products to become even more retrograde, and their OS to become quite bloated with junk.

There is a lot of talk about Windoze 7, but from the recent release candidates - MicroSloth is miles away from the Windoze 7even product that Gates had wanted to bring out into the market...


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

*EP you make a good point.*

EvanPitts [ EP ] you make a good point about the processors. Not being a tekkie, I do understand about the vertigal integrated manufacturing process. While Apple is also a manufacturer....it probably doesn't make all its parts. I would suspect it is more or less an assembler of pcs [ pc meaning personal computer for those who make a distinction between Windows and Mac OS ]. 

That being said, wouldn't all producers of computers have this problem? With more and more of our consumer devices being akin to computers, surely any manufacturer of computer like products will face the same situation. 

I think what Apple really needs to do is unleash the hounds and have their OS run on any machine. I know this is a departure from the vision, and moving closer to a Microsoft like business model, but, the risks are in the manufacturing process. It seems to me that the current business plan has too many operation risks to sustain itself going forward.

Thoughts


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Rps said:


> That being said, wouldn't all producers of computers have this problem? With more and more of our consumer devices being akin to computers, surely any manufacturer of computer like products will face the same situation.


Apple has a set deal that has a duration of five years, so once that contract is over, Apple will have to find another source, or do what the rest of the industry does and buy the processors on the commodity market at higher unit costs. If Apple wants to move towards greater performance, they will need to delete Intel because Apple is really forced into cheap Intel integrated graphics rather than better performing real video chipsets, and to get rid of the Northbridge and Soutbridge chips that restrict I/O performance.

One can say that other manufacturers have these restrictions, which is true but other manufacturers are also pounded by the performance liabilities of Windoze...



> I think what Apple really needs to do is unleash the hounds and have their OS run on any machine.


What Apple really needs to do is make much of the bloat of their newer OS offerings option deletable - like put a real Find function back in and scrap Spotlight, or to have options top scrap garbage like Stacks or the 3D Dock... But then again, even with the bloat, OSX is miles ahead of retrograde garbage like Windoze...


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I bought an xbox 360 from Dell back in November and wanted a refund and they waited almost to the last minute before refunding me and it almost went to a dispute with Visa. The one and only time I dealt with Dell was a horrible experience. 

Not to be spiteful but I hope they go out of business because it serves them right as I found out later they are known for their terrible customer service. Anyway the only reason I am posting this is because they called me today to see if I got my refund on the xbox. I ordered it in Novmeber for goodness sake and it is June almost July. I won't be surprised if one day Dell files for chapter 11 as you can only stick it to people for so long. Realistically speaking they are there a bunch of shysters who will probably be around for awhile.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Rps said:


> I think what Apple really needs to do is unleash the hounds and have their OS run on any machine. I know this is a departure from the vision, and moving closer to a Microsoft like business model, but, the risks are in the manufacturing process. It seems to me that the current business plan has too many operation risks to sustain itself going forward.


:lmao:


Annnnd the real agenda comes forth. Nice try.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

*What a b*tch-slap to Dell...*

Apple Could Pay Cash for Dell



> Eleven years ago, Michael Dell, CEO of Austin, TX-based Dell Computers was asked what he would do if he were CEO of Apple Computers. His answer: “I’d shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders.”
> 
> It’s hard to know what Steve Jobs would say if he were asked the same question today, because he rarely speaks to the press. But if he wanted to, he could do the very same thing for Dell, Inc. shareholders tomorrow and still have about $10 billion left in the bank.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Bjornbro said:


> Apple Could Pay Cash for Dell


The report is over a year old. That said, the statement likely still stands true.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Lars said:


> The report is over a year old. That said, the statement likely still stands true.


Apples market cap today: $174.8 billion Cash on hand/short term securities: $34 billion
Microsoft market cap today: $252.8 billion
Googles market cap today: $173.6 billion
Intels market cap today: $104.6 billion
Dells market cap today: $29.16 billion
Motorola market cap today: $21.41 billion
Palms market cap today: $1.64 billion

Oh how the mighty fall...... Interesting article (linked in another post) in Fortune magazine naming Steve Jobs as the CEO of the decade.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Just an update....












> At $235 billion, the company is being valued at more than Sony, Research In Motion, Dell, Motorola, Nokia, HTC, SanDisk and Palm .*.. put together.* That assumes a lot.





> . Apple is already* worth more than* General Electric, Wal-Mart, Chevron or Procter & Gamble. It is worth nearly as much as Microsoft.


Seven Reasons Apple Shareholders Should Be Cautious - WSJ.com

Yikes...:yikes:

considering this...




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

I had to deal with a Dell order recently. I have not dealt with Dell for about 7 or 8 years. Back then it was reasonably efficient . This time the online order system was brutal and the phone support to get things right was even worse. I probably spent 4 hours on the phone. Lots of dropped calls. No record of my calls associated with the order number. Had to retell the story over and over again. Night and day when compared to dealing with Apple. The computer arrived and I opened it to make sure everything was as ordered and good to go...it was. The smell of cheap plastic was as bad a a new shower curtain purchased at a dollar store for 99 cents. I'm glad it wasn't staying with me.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

> As long as the competition acts like this, Apple will keep winning. But its success owes less to the genius of Apple than the incompetence of everyone else. And that's something you can't control.


as much as I do think apple is very smart and has put out fantastic products, I have to agree with this. I have said in another thread, that the blundering on music players, and perhaps phones is one ting, but when and if a major shift on computing platforms occurs, the knives will appear. I think the stage is already being set.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

groovetube said:


> but when and if a major shift on computing platforms occurs, the knives will appear. I think the stage is already being set.


What do you mean by shift on computing platforms?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Just an update....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that clip. It's amazing, really. His Great Steveness always seems to appear optimistic rater than despairing or alarmist. He instills confidence, and this was when he had just returned to the Apple fold from NeXT. I wonder if its because of his Buddhist nature? Anyway, he realliy is a leader, a quality lacking in far too many CEO's. Ballmer, take notes. Michael Dell, hope your retirement package is a good one.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Do you have a "Great Steveness" figurine on your alter?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Great clip, fjnmusic - well worth 12 minutes to remember where Apple was in the late '90s, and how far we've come. Performances like that certainly make one wonder what Apple will do once Steve is no longer at the helm.

On a related note... a few cringeworthy moments in the video. The audience was definitely not completely onboard the Apple-Microsoft bandwagon...


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

have a look at the tail spin M$ is in, with Bill gone.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Do you have a "Great Steveness" figurine on your alter?


You bet. Right next to the kool-aid.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Great clip, fjnmusic - well worth 12 minutes to remember where Apple was in the late '90s, and how far we've come. Performances like that certainly make one wonder what Apple will do once Steve is no longer at the helm.
> 
> On a related note... a few cringeworthy moments in the video. The audience was definitely not completely onboard the Apple-Microsoft bandwagon...


It was like the Hatfields and McCoys getting together for a marriage of their only children.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Dueling Market Caps: Apple and Microsoft
> 
> by John Paczkowski
> Posted on April 22, 2010 at 2:18 PM PT
> ...


Apple Bigger Than Microsoft by One Market Cap Measure | John Paczkowski | Digital Daily | AllThingsD


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> *Suit Over Faulty Computers Highlights Dell’s Decline*
> 
> *By ASHLEE VANCE*
> 
> ...


In Suit Over Faulty Computers, Window to Dell?s Fall - NYTimes.com


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

^^^^^^

That NY Times article is particularly devastating and it's been on the paper's "most read" list since it was published. All I know is I had a recent encounter with Dell's sales front when I was ordering a PC (shame) for an elderly person who did not want to make the transition to a Mac. It was a brutal multi hour experience just to ensure the PC had a wifi card built into it; Hours wasted, case file not recorded, so that I had to start the story from scratch over and over again. Dell has some serious problems to overcome. When I compare my sales and service encounters with Apple, it's a day and night experience.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

CubaMark said:


> ... make one wonder what Apple will do once Steve is no longer at the helm...


Well, we've already had a preview, when Jobs was on medical leave getting his Liver transplant.

By all accounts, Tim Cook did a commendable job in his stead, with Apple seeming to trundle on just fine.

I'd say the evidence so far is that Apple's commitment to quality is infused throughout the company, and not just coming from the top down.


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

The problem one tends to run in with Dell is specific product lines with severe problems and third world peasant customer service that is unlikely to connect you with a solution. Dell shipped a model last year known as the Studio 1737 all of which have a severely flawed BIOS. Dell support has been promising a fix since last fall but this has never come. But when it comes to trying to get something done with your problematic system you run up against a wall of third world morons who can't do anything. Worst of all these customer service peasants don't have access to Dell support resources so they might evaluate complaints, but they wouldn't understand them if they did. 

I have had some doozies with AppleCare over the years, usually involving machines smashed by their depot service contractor Flextronics. (Their specialty is putting screws through ribbon cables, breaking anchors and stripping screws) But I have never had Apple claim there are no known problems with the iBook!


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

SoyMac said:


> Well, we've already had a preview, when Jobs was on medical leave getting his Liver transplant.
> 
> By all accounts, Tim Cook did a commendable job in his stead, with Apple seeming to trundle on just fine.
> 
> I'd say the evidence so far is that Apple's commitment to quality is infused throughout the company, and not just coming from the top down.


that wasn't for a very long time, and Apple was already running on a major momentum built up. It took quite a while for M$ to start crumbling after Ballmer took over.

Unless a real visionary took his place, another at another company will take that role.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Trevor... said:


> But when it comes to trying to get something done with your problematic system you run up against a wall of third world morons who can't do anything.


My heart sinks when I am trying to get "live person" assistance on the internet and I realize I'm communicating with someone who has a series of standard English phrases they are allowed to cut and paste into the window: "I can help you with that!"

Last time that happened the person began mixing up the phrases. The more I ragged him/her about it, the worse it got.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

it's best to speak in incomplete sentences. At least, it's good for a chuckle and won't be a COMPLETE waste of time.


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