# So... WHICH Sony is the iPod killer again?? & iTunes rip-off



## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Talk about throwing enough spaghetti against the wall hoping some sticks, after announcing that "Sony Bean" thing a couple of weeks ago, they yesterday announced a new "Walkman 'A' Series" player. (more here http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050908-5287.html )

SO, which one's the iPod killer? I'm not sure even Sony knows.

And to boot, Sony released a "redesigned" -- make that "reverse engineered" -- Sony Connect PC program:












Look familiar? 

Meanwhile, over in that techno hotspot, Korea, Korean manufacturers are "sulking" over the fact that Apple got an awesome volume deal from Samsung on Flash memory. That's what happens when someone else buys more than you do. It's called "free enterprise", folks.


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## macsackbut (Dec 15, 2004)

I don't know about you, but I find all this both hillarious (especially the sulking Korean manufacturers) and puzzling. I mean, if Apple can design something like the nano, what's stopping the competition from coming up with something half decent? They've had a couple of years at it; you'd think they'd have SOMETHING by now?! But no, nothing that really approaches the sexiness of the nano. Apple keeps raising the bar. If the other guys want to keep up, they're going to have to start thinking 18 months ahead. But hey, what do I know about business...


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Thing is, all the asian electronics manufacturers, marketing guys, distributors and record labels ALL had YEARS before the iPod came out to develop the market and define the state of the art. Instead, they built dyslexic and cryptic hardware and interfaces, marketed to geeks only, while the record labels were only interested in fighting to keep music distribution rooted in the dark ages or limply offered up neutered, half-hearted lame excuses for online stores with inconsistent and restricting usage rights.

Today, they all enjoy a far more positive environment for them to succeed, thanks to the unbelievably difficult job Steve Jobs had in establishing the first reasonably fair and consistent music distribution model AND showing them all how attractive and easy to use an MP3 player could be... and showing them all what they SHOULD have done when they all had their unique chance instead of keeping their heads in the sand -- or in worse places:










makes me wonder how much snickering went on when the first iPod came out -- made by who? APPLE??!  "RIGHT. SURE!" I bet they all thought.

Those guys had their chance. They failed to take advantage of it. Now, they're desperately playing catch-up while Apple has all the momentum and isn't letting up. it must be brutal -- JUST BRUTAL -- in those other baordrooms, man.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

macsackbut said:


> I don't know about you, but I find all this both hillarious (especially the sulking Korean manufacturers) and puzzling. I mean, if Apple can design something like the nano, what's stopping the competition from coming up with something half decent? They've had a couple of years at it; you'd think they'd have SOMETHING by now?! But no, nothing that really approaches the sexiness of the nano. Apple keeps raising the bar. If the other guys want to keep up, they're going to have to start thinking 18 months ahead. But hey, what do I know about business...


I don't find it puzzling at all. 

Apple succeeds time and time again fron an aesthetic design perspective because of the culture of the company. Consumer electronics manufacturures are not concerned with design from the outset. Engineering teams are given a budget and are required to design that product within said budget within a specific period of time. That system hardly embraces innovation in electronics or design for that matter. It's completely marketing driven.

While Apple is a significant marketing company, the culture stems from the top down to build "insanely great products". Most if not all Apple employees adhere and embrace this culture. When your CEO says that we have to make a profit to support our ability to design our products the way we want them, it fosters that culture.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

More on the korean makers and the market:

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/biz/200509/kt2005090919201311880.htm


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## macsackbut (Dec 15, 2004)

iPetie said:


> I don't find it puzzling at all.


 Well, as I said, I'm no business expert. I guess it always amazes me how conservative corporate culture is, especially in the computer business, where you snooze you lose. It's survival of the fittest at work.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

Apple has put together (what I would say) is one of the best marketing ploys of all time. But, did it correctly. 

Apple Stores - these are probably some of the nicest stores on the planet.. it's all in how things look, these stores are probably designed just as well as the machines that the company sells. (Yes, Sony has stores.. but what do you hear of them? In fact, the one we had here.. closed.)

Branding - The Apple logo has to be one of the most significant logo's out there today. Even when you're in public, using your iBook/powerbook.. it's a glowing beacon to anyone passing by. Not to mention the iPod... all the way down to the white headphones being an icon and something they've branded.

Commercials - Apple's commercials are stunning, off the wall, and usually catchy. Using a song from a popular group at the time helps too. Really nice job on that part.

Quality - Apple is gaining momentum with the iPod's success because of it's quality. More people are taking a look at Apple's Computers now.. because of the iPod.. that's no small deal. "If their Mp3 player is this good.. maybe I should see what OS X is all about." Then you move to the switch campaigns... (integration )

Integration - All of Apple's products seemlessly work with one another, iTunes and iPod are completely 1 unit as far as I'm concerned.. and that's the way it should be. You can never have a second "first impression." This grabs a LOT of people on it's own. On top of that, iTunes is an amazingly simple but powerful music jukebox.. MOST of the PC users I've shown have never looked at another jukebox again. It just works.. and it's simple.  (And now it looks great too )

All in all.. Apple has spent a LOT of time and money on their brand. Getting it out in the public eye is only the first step in getting things rolling. Keeping a supply of Innovative, Sexy, Fun and Quality hardware and software is what keeps them ahead of their game. Making people want to "Buy" again. Apple is great at this.. and FWIW, I hope they are for a long time.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

macsackbut said:


> Well, as I said, I'm no business expert. I guess it always amazes me how conservative corporate culture is, especially in the computer business, where you snooze you lose. It's survival of the fittest at work.


Well, you can extend it even further. I believe that this is the driving reason why Apple was such an important and long sought after design win for Intel. The computer industry, and the PC industry in particular desperately needs innovation. They know they're not going to get innovation in design and function from Dell, Toshiba, Lenovo and HP.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vexel said:


> Apple has put together (what I would say) is one of the best marketing ploys of all time. But, did it correctly.





Vexel said:


> Apple Stores - these are probably some of the nicest stores on the planet.. it's all in how things look, these stores are probably designed just as well as the machines that the company sells. (Yes, Sony has stores.. but what do you hear of them? In fact, the one we had here.. closed.)


The stores look great, but I still will only support smaller retailers. I still get better selection/services/prices from the small guy. There is only one Apple store in Canada, I don't think that cutting out the middleman in Canada will help in the long run. 




Vexel said:


> Quality - Apple is gaining momentum with the iPod's success because of it's quality. More people are taking a look at Apple's Computers now.. because of the iPod.. that's no small deal. "If their Mp3 player is this good.. maybe I should see what OS X is all about." Then you move to the switch campaigns... (integration )


Uhmm... the halo factor is helping sales, but I'm surprised at the lack of quality control from Apple lately. Everything from the new computers to the mighty mouse seems to suffer from this. I'm really surprised at all the tales from people who have had to return their units at least once...


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

ArtistSeries said:


> I'm surprised at the lack of quality control from Apple lately. Everything from the new computers to the mighty mouse seems to suffer from this. I'm really surprised at all the tales from people who have had to return their units at least once...


I'm forced to agree. iPod batteries, laptop problems (a few different ones in recent years), G5 iMac heat issues ( the G5 CPU itself with its inability to scale without burning up). I'd blame some on outsourcing parts and manufacturing, but some are also design flaws from Apple's own hand.

What's up with the Mighty Mouse? Did I miss a memo?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Macaholic said:


> What's up with the Mighty Mouse? Did I miss a memo?


The first person that I know using it, has already had to return for an exchange. Waiting on others to see what will be happening.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> The stores look great, but I still will only support smaller retailers. I still get better selection/services/prices from the small guy. There is only one Apple store in Canada, I don't think that cutting out the middleman in Canada will help in the long run.


I completely agree, I personally would love to support my local resellers before the Apple store that happens to drop in. But, it still doesn't deter the huge amounts of sales Apple is gaining just by having these stores in open view of the public. A LOT of resellers are not so good at marketing.



> Uhmm... the halo factor is helping sales, but I'm surprised at the lack of quality control from Apple lately. Everything from the new computers to the mighty mouse seems to suffer from this. I'm really surprised at all the tales from people who have had to return their units at least once...


I agree with you here as well.. Quality Control probably has deminished a little with Apple.. but, they're still out-gunning ANY other PC maker according to a recent survey. 

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1851525,00.asp

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1851295,00.asp


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Vexel said:


> I completely agree, I personally would love to support my local resellers before the Apple store that happens to drop in. But, it still doesn't deter the huge amounts of sales Apple is gaining just by having these stores in open view of the public. A LOT of resellers are not so good at marketing.


Oh absolutely. I see them more as "outreach centres" to the huddled, unwashed masses  Seriously though, they are a crucial NEW element in growing awareness about Apple's stuff -- and nobody designs their store better.


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## macsackbut (Dec 15, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> The first person that I know using it, has already had to return for an exchange. Waiting on others to see what will be happening.


Any idea what the problem was? Just wondering what I should be looking for with mine, not that I've been having any problems.

But back to the topic at hand (as it is evolving in this thread). I've never been to an Apple Store, and here in Montreal we don't really have any great resellers. But I have to also say that my experience with the on-line store has been really fantastic for the most part. Now I have no idea how that compares with, say, Dell (I'm guessing Dell's pretty good in this department too), but it's all part of the Apple experience. 

But I STILL don't see why other companies (especially Sony... sheesh) aren't getting this. Maybe it's because, the iPod aside, Apple is still a relatively small player in the computer industry, so nobody sees it as a real threat. And yet all indications seem to point to the fact that they do, in fact, see Apple as a threat. So why do they have so much trouble changing their corporate culture to compete? Is it simply that <i>Titanics</i> like Sony and Dell are too big to turn around that fast?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> The first person that I know using it, has already had to return for an exchange. Waiting on others to see what will be happening.


Love my Mighty Mouse. Will be getting another.


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## joltguy (Apr 15, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> And to boot, Sony released a "redesigned" -- make that "reverse engineered" -- Sony Connect PC program:


  
That's ridiculous! I can't believe they could be so shameless. Blatant thievery! I mean, we're not talking about some fly-by-night here... it's Sony! They should certainly have the talent and the resources to do something more than a weak iTunes imitation. Its almost as though all of Apple's competitors in music actually *aim* for "slightly inferior to Apple", and then end up falling short of even that. 

I love how Apple keeps raising the bar on them too. They just can't catch up. As soemone in the press said, Apple has created a "moving target" for competitors in the music business with its constant iPod and iTunes upgrades.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

macsackbut said:


> Any idea what the problem was? Just wondering what I should be looking for with mine, not that I've been having any problems.
> 
> But back to the topic at hand (as it is evolving in this thread). I've never been to an Apple Store, and here in Montreal we don't really have any great resellers. But I have to also say that my experience with the on-line store has been really fantastic for the most part. Now I have no idea how that compares with, say, Dell (I'm guessing Dell's pretty good in this department too), but it's all part of the Apple experience.
> 
> But I STILL don't see why other companies (especially Sony... sheesh) aren't getting this. Maybe it's because, the iPod aside, Apple is still a relatively small player in the computer industry, so nobody sees it as a real threat. And yet all indications seem to point to the fact that they do, in fact, see Apple as a threat. So why do they have so much trouble changing their corporate culture to compete? Is it simply that <i>Titanics</i> like Sony and Dell are too big to turn around that fast?


I find it's more like trying to catch the racecar that had a 10 minute headstart and lots of fuel with a good driver. Chances are unlikely he/she will be caught.

Apple was first out of the gate on this one.. with plenty of time ahead of the others. This leaves the others in the dust with the smell of freshly burnt rubber.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

I still say that Sony, Rio, and the rest along with the labels had ample chance to initiate such a wave for a few years before Apple got to work on it. They just don't know how to "Think Different™". And that's why we love the boys and girls of Cupertino


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

I think many of the naysayers with respect to Apple's dominance in the digital music arena were swiftly silenced with the announcements of Sept 7th ...

- over 1,000 accessories for the iPod ... competitors - almost zero
- iTunes now on a cellphone - more models eventually for sure
- 30% of new cars in the US will offer iPod integration in 2006
- 1.8 million songs downloaded from ITMS per day (the last total I remember being mentioned was 1.25 million/day)
- at least 600 million songs downloaded from ITMS (10 million accounts x avg of 60 songs per customer)

As unbelieveable as the iPod nano is ... the most amazing part is that Apple was willing to replace the iPod mini in the process ... the pundits keep saying that competitors will eventually catch up ... the flaw in their argument is that they assume that Apple will stand still ... the iPod nano drives home what we have known all along ... Apple is a swiftly moving target.

I think this is slowly starting to sink in on Wall Street.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> I still say that Sony, Rio, and the rest along with the labels had ample chance to initiate such a wave for a few years before Apple got to work on it. They just don't know how to "Think Different™". And that's why we love the boys and girls of Cupertino


Completely. 100% 



Derrick said:


> I think many of the naysayers with respect to Apple's dominance in the digital music arena were swiftly silenced with the announcements of Sept 7th ...
> 
> - over 1,000 accessories for the iPod ... competitors - almost zero
> - iTunes now on a cellphone - more models eventually for sure
> ...


Very true as well. Apple won't let themselves sit still ever... it's not their way. Innovating is the thing they do best.. I don't understand why anyone would think they would sit and wait for the rest of the market to stroll their lazy butts in.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Derrick said:


> 30% of new cars in the US will offer iPod integration in 2006


Conspicuously absent: The US Big 3; Some other sleepy corporations.



> As unbelieveable as the iPod nano is ... the most amazing part is that Apple was willing to replace the iPod mini in the process


It's like Seinfeld going out on a high.



> I thought of the following slogan for Sony last night and thought I would share it:
> 
> 1000 models. Impossibly complex.


LOL! Good one!


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

I thought of the following slogan for Sony last night and thought I would share it:

1000 models. Impossibly complex.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

First sign of the apocalypse: Macaholic quotes a message that is posted after his.... (I know, I know, but dang, Macaholic, you have got to get up for a pee at some point...).


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

LMFAO! 

You should see me bend spoons with my mind!


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## macsackbut (Dec 15, 2004)

joltguy said:


> That's ridiculous! I can't believe they could be so shameless. Blatant thievery! I mean, we're not talking about some fly-by-night here... it's Sony! They should certainly have the talent and the resources to do something more than a weak iTunes imitation. Its almost as though all of Apple's competitors in music actually *aim* for "slightly inferior to Apple", and then end up falling short of even that.


Exactly! I don't get it. Sure, Apple's a moving target, but there's a lot at stake here. I would have expected more out of the competition. Surely they realize that they have to think at least two steps ahead of Apple to stay in the game. Granted, that's a tall order, but there are a lot of smart people in this world, and not ALL of the geniuses are working for Apple.

Anyway, this IS a fun thread


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Quotes from a Sony exec in of the articles I referenced:

"it is Sony which first began selling music via the Internet"

Yeah. Too bad it sucked. (See? They -- and the others -- had their chance).

"We have a history of upgrading our brand value by proposing a new fashion and a new lifestyle."

Yeah. Like this:










That's a lifestyle I'll take a pass on.

And, his final quote:

"Apple is like Sony in the old days and we have a lot to learn from them"

Seems you already have learned some things:


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

I just discovered a very interesting read:

http://www.nivi.com/blog/article/steve-jobs-to-studios/


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Derrick said:


> I just discovered a very interesting read:
> 
> http://www.nivi.com/blog/article/steve-jobs-to-studios/


Let's hope Hollywood got that.

I am pining for Apple to create a home digital media solution. When Apple announced the Intel move, I immediately thought about the future of home media consumption, that Hollywood will only pay ball if there's solid hardware based DRM, and that Apple would eventually want to be a part of that (I agree with Jobs about wee portable video players not being practical).

So, when Apple went Intel, with Jobs saying that IBM;s CPUs can't take us "where we want to go down the road" (Jobs' quote), I KNEW that he didn't just mean CPU clock cycles and low heat. The CPU will be the heart of the future of DRM, and Apple NEEDS to be in the game, lest they (and all us Mac users) get left at the digital media distribution train station.

and Intel's all over this stuff, it seems: their Pentium D CPU has DRM on it, and they recently announced a new line of CPUs, called "VIIV" that are designed for home media consumption. This is not an option for Apple to pursue.


here's an article on the VIIV:
http://www.betanews.com/article/print/Intel_Lifts_Veil_of_Secrecy_from_VIIV/1124914743

here's a boring video of the recent Intel Developer Conference where they discuss the VIIV processor:
http://news.com.com/1606-2-5843033.html
(it's only about three minutes long)

As time goes by, there's no way I want a Windows Media Center system to be my next-gen "TV" and movie player. I want an Apple solution for the job!


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

Macaholic said:


> I am pining for Apple to create a home digital media solution. ... As time goes by, there's no way I want a Windows Media Center system to be my next-gen "TV" and movie player. I want an Apple solution for the job!


I couldn't agree more ... no one has yet bridged the gap between computer and TV ... I hope Apple is the one to accomplish this ... 

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part  ... I see Apple creating an Airport Express A/V type of device rather than another Media Centre type box. Another breakthrough would be a remote control that is simple, seamless and doesn't cost a fortune like a Crestron (or similiar) touchscreen.

Many audio component manufacturers are trying to get into the 'music server' arena ... the problem is many of them cost at least a few thousand dollars ... and all you really get is a hard disk and a remote. I have accomplished the same thing with an iMac G5, iTunes, Salling Clicker and a Palm T2 PDA ... touchscreen control, color screen, full control over my music library from my listening chair.

I have had a friend of mine who works for a high end audio shop over to check the system out and has said several times that my setup blows the doors off the functionality provided by these systems that are coming on the market from audio manufactuers ... the kicker is that I didn't have to spend nearly as much (and a Mac mini would have worked just fine too) ... and I have a full Mac to use to boot.

I think the only thing delaying Apple from introducing a media type device is simply getting sufficient video content into ITMS ... once that happens ... I am sure we will be ready with credit card in hand.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

While I find the latest players Sony is coming out with rather unpleasant they do tend to have better battery life then most players out there.

Also, I'm curious how the new version of Connect can be a rip off of iTunes 5? iTunes 5 was released on Wednesday and well in a program like SonicStage you can't just change the UI to nearly represent iTunes 5 in less then 24 hours. Not realistically anyway. It may have been an attempt to cross SonicStage with the popular iTunes 4 look that happened to reveal what appears to be a iTunes 5 rip-off, but I doubt we can call Connect a true iTunes rip-off.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

Vexel said:


> Apple has put together (what I would say) is one of the best marketing ploys of all time. But, did it correctly. ...
> 
> Apple Stores - ... ..)
> 
> ...


Vexel, I found this an excellent analysis of the secret to Apple's success. 
Thanks for putting in to _words_ what I've always _felt_ since discovering/switching to Apple.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Chealion said:


> I'm curious how the new version of Connect can be a rip off of iTunes 5?


Eh?!

How about a rip-off of iTunes 1, then? This new software of Sony's looks exactly like the laytout of iTunes. Period. Not just iTunes 5.


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## TheAnalyst (Sep 8, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> Eh?!
> 
> How about a rip-off of iTunes 1, then? This new software of Sony's looks exactly like the laytout of iTunes. Period. Not just iTunes 5.


Perception is often deceiving. To many http://www.graphiccare.ca/ was not a rip-off of another site. http://www.ehmac.ca/showpost.php?p=219442&postcount=16

The dichotomy of perception and reality is often blurred due to lack of certain analytical skills . Please note that this does not imply stupidity, it can be a lack of knowledge or many other factors.

The fact that the makers of GraphicCare continue to use stolen creative work is echoed in the boldness of Sony echoing a well know interface. Many will not complain or care because it has no direct influence on them. 

Interesting, no?


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

TheAnalyst said:


> Interesting, no?


No.

(who let this guy in here?  )


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## TheAnalyst (Sep 8, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> No.
> 
> (who let this guy in here?  )


An honest answer, we need more of this and less platitudes. 

I am a long time lurker. I find most experiences interesting.
Please to meet you Mr. Macaholic.

And a very apt moniker, works well with my point about honesty and less banalities.


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## DBerG (May 24, 2005)

Apple's gonna kick the ass of XP Media Center. As said before, the Airport B/S could use A/V streaming to stream TV contents to the computer and vice-versa. Anyway, that's one great topic!


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

DBerG said:


> Apple's gonna kick the ass of XP Media Center. As said before, the Airport B/S could use A/V streaming to stream TV contents to the computer and vice-versa. Anyway, that's one great topic!


Agreed ... sales figures are proving that the Media Centre concept has not caught on ... 

There was a speech given at NAB earlier this year that I listened to which had a very interesting observation that almost no one tried to get content that they have downloaded to their computer to their TV ... why? ... because it is just a very painful process.

I can't wait to see what Apple comes up with in this arena ...


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

DBerG said:


> As said before, the Airport B/S could use A/V streaming to stream TV contents to the computer and vice-versa.


Technically, there's a way to go in this regard. The Airport Base Station isn't near the streaming power which is required for that kind of flow. We've seen it in the express, lots of people got a product called Airfoil (www.rogueamoeba.com) expecting to be able to watch DVD player with it. The lag which is created between processing the stream and sending it over wireless is just too much... about 2 or 3 seconds.. which in a movie coincidentally is a liftime.

Unfortunately, unless Apple finds a new way to stream it wirelessly, it can't be done as it sits right now. If it were, it would have been implemented long ago.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

TheAnalyst said:


> An honest answer, we need more of this and less platitudes.


Actually, in the broader context of life, you are correct that "many will not complain or care because it has no direct influence on them". The fact that Sony ripped off iTunes matters little in the context of life, as does the fervent frothing of us fanboiz about anything Apple.



> And a very apt moniker, works well with my point about honesty and less banalities.


And that moniker is why some unimportant things such as the topic of this thread get blown into some kind of "news event". Sad thing is, there are 37 replies to it  Seems I'm not the ONLY Macaholic around here.



> Please to meet you Mr. Macaholic.


Likewise. You're new here, and I've been lurking about your replies over the past few days, myself. Let me give you a piece of (free!) advice: be mindful of dispensing too much pompous wisdom







lest thou be prompted to heal thyself. M'kay?


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## TheAnalyst (Sep 8, 2005)

Macaholic said:


> Let me give you a piece of (free!) advice: be mindful of dispensing too much pompous wisdom
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A puking emocon, how drole... 

Works well with the image of self-imposed ignorance you also posted (head up ass shot).


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

TheAnalystWorks well with the image of self-imposed ignorance you also posted (head up ass shot).[/QUOTE said:


> Well, THAT was a shot of a Sony exec
> 
> I have to use these little web gems when I can, ya see.


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