# Alberta Leadership Vote



## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

CTV



> Dinning, the province's one-time provincial treasurer, had 5,545 votes with about 20 per cent of the ballots cast.
> 
> The second-place candidate is rookie backbencher Ted Morton, standard-bearer for the hard right of the party, with 4,706 votes. Ed Stelmach, a former cabinet minister, had 3,193 votes.


So does the "anyone but Dinning" vote go to Morton or Stelmach next week?


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

Update:



> Dinning, the province's one-time provincial treasurer who has been out of elected politics for a decade, had 29,470 votes with all of the province's 83 constituencies reporting.
> 
> The second-place candidate is rookie backbencher Ted Morton, standard-bearer for the hard right of the party, with 25,614 votes. Ed Stelmach, a farmer and former cabinet minister, had 14,967 votes.
> 
> ...


I found out earlier this week that Morton was likely to finish second but I had no idea how close he would be.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

That is much closer than I expected. AB leadership contests are very free-wheeling, though. With those numbers, new signups before Dec. 2 can make a big difference.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

This is starting to get interesting.

Both the "Anyone but Dinning" and the "Anyone But Morton" camps might put Stelmach down as their second choice, which could cause him to get in if neither Dinning nor Morton can get a majority on the second ballot. Both Dinning and Morton have a polarizing effect, but nobody seems to fussed about Stelmach.

A number of candidates that fell off on the first ballot have thrown their weight behind Stelmach as well.

Whoever wins this will be the next premier of Alberta - and likely for a little while, at least. I doubt the NDP will be able to break out beyond their few pockets of support in Edmonton and the North, and the Liberals don't stand a chance in their current form - although they *might* pick up some support if the new Tory leader is unpopular, provided that they can distance themselves from the federal Liberals.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

PenguinBoy said:


> I doubt the NDP will be able to break out beyond their few pockets of support in Edmonton and the North, and the Liberals don't stand a chance in their current form - although they *might* pick up some support if the new Tory leader is unpopular, provided that they can distance themselves from the federal Liberals.


The Liberals will never win for one reason, and here it is:


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

Morton would probably be the best thing that ever happened to the Alberta Liberal Party.

Dinning is pretty much a Liberal (at least as close as you can get to one in Alberta).


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

SINC said:


> The Liberals will never win for one reason, and here it is:


Taft is a smart guy - but he does come across as an "angry man on a rant at times", which doesn't help, but I figure the biggest hurdle the Liberals face in Alberta is the association with the federal Liberals. Of course the fact that they haven't won an election since 1917 doesn't exactly make them look like they are ready to form a government.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

> Taft is a smart guy - but he does come across as an "angry man on a rant at times",


I don't think he comes off as angry, he's just not a very dynamic or charismatic speaker.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

Did anyone else watch the leadership debate tonight?

I was surprised by a couple of things:

1) Ed Stelmach was, imo, terrible. He didn't strike me as someone I would want to send off to Ottawa for a First Minister's Conference.

2) Ted Morton, who came across as both a strong leader who I would want representing the province at a First Minister's Conference.

Jim Dinning was underwhelming.

To sum up:

Ed Stelmach: I...I..I believe you have my stapler
Jim Dinning : If you vote for me, all of your wildest dreams will come true.

The only caveat I have with Morton is his stance on healthcare as I have always supported a public system.

On that issue, I didn't trust how Dinning phrased his answer and suspect he would privatize elements of it as well.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Unfortunately I missed it - I usually like to watch this sort of thing.

Unlike the "Liberals elect next Prime Minister" mentioned in another thread, this really *is* about electing the next premier of Alberta. The results of this leadership race will most likely determine the direction the provincial government takes for the next several years.

In a way this race is more significant than a provincial election.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I heard a report today that there was "interference" from the Federal Cons in this procedure - I did not get details but it seemed to me to be passing strange that teh Federal Gov is stepping into a provincial affair.
Anyone enlighten me as to what this might be about.

Something about federal ministers......yada yada - just caught brief bit on the radio.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

The only thing that I have heard is that some Conservative MPs have endorsed Morton.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

CBC



> Only a handful of Alberta's Conservative MPs are publicly endorsing any of the three candidates running to replace Ralph Klein as leader of the provincial Progressive Conservatives.





> Jim Dinning has three dozen provincial MLAs on his list, but only a couple of Alberta's 28 Tory MPs, including St. Albert's John Williams.





> None of the MPs have come out as being in Ed Stelmach's camp, although the leadership hopeful says some MPs have pledged their supporter.





> Ted Morton has southern MPs Myron Thompson, Rob Anders and Jason Kenney all endorsing him.


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## Mugatu (Mar 31, 2005)

In my opinion, Morton is far too right, Stelmach will get thumped by Ottawa and Dinning just comes across as a sleeze ball.

I guess if was forced to pick, I'd pick Dinning. He doesn't seem to have any real weak points ... or strong points either.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Alberta's Conservative MPs are publicly endorsing any of the three candidates


isn't that a bit odd appealing to a Federal MP for endorsement for a provincial leadership contest


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

I haven't heard any allegations of "interference", I would be interested in any links on this.

I doubt it is the endorsements, some of the federal MPs have been publicly endorsing either Morton or Dinning since at least Summer, so I would think that anyone that objected to an endorsement would have made their views known months ago.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It was an interview with one of the candidates and he was the one claiming interference and sounded disgruntled so likely just sour grapes at garnering no endorsements.
Just was a surprise to me and the interviewer.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> isn't that a bit odd appealing to a Federal MP for endorsement for a provincial leadership contest


The media has pointed it out, but hasn't made a big deal about it. I don't know how common it is.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

Mugatu said:


> In my opinion, Morton is far too right, Stelmach will get thumped by Ottawa and Dinning just comes across as a sleeze ball.


That is how I feel about the three candidates as well.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Mugatu said:


> I guess if was forced to pick, I'd pick Dinning.


Since I'm not a member of the Conservative party I don't get to pick any of them - just as well, since I'm not sure who I'd pick.

Dinning is a bit too tied in with the party establishment for my liking.

Morton seems like he would be a bit more likely to "kick over the anthill", and has solid academic credentials, but is a bit of a hard line social conservative.

Stelmach seems like he would be a bit out of his depth at this point - but he wouldn't polarize the party like the other two.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

Link

Above is a link to the debate.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I hope Morton doesn't win but, from Alberta's perspective, he may hold the knife to Ottawa's throat, so to speak.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Geez - went to that link and what pops up.



> Poll
> 
> A Calgary woman was recently told by her family doctor to go elsewhere to get a prescription for the birth control pill. Should a doctor's religious beliefs be allowed to dictate whether they prescribe the pill?


http://www.canada.com/globaltv/calgary/index.html#

scary....for any number of reasons..


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## Mugatu (Mar 31, 2005)

Ugh, I just heard some tag lines from the debate on the CBC this morning. Dinning's responses where absolutely hilarious. 

'I sit down at the table and talk about 'love', 'respect', 'blah', 'blah', 'blah' with my children. And this is the sort of relationship I want to have with the PC party. <voice cracks a little bit>'. 

Sheesh! I thought he was about to cry. I mean the above is paraphrased a little bit, but come on! He wants to be the 'father' of the PCs? Ugh. I think you can get diabetes by listening to that guy.

St..St...St... Stelmach.. couldn't spit out a cohesive thought.

Morton was actually pretty articulate. Too bad he's hard core. Actually, really sad since he seems by far the best candidate for dealing with Ottawa (especially when/if the Liberals get back into power).


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

I thought more about Morton and have changed my mind, I don't want him representing Alberta on the national scene.

Pulling out of the equalization program without federal provocation would probably increase the likelihood of Ottawa taking some kind of regressive action against the oil industry.

It would be better to keep that option off the table unless or until Ottawa starts talking about a carbon tax or other program not in Alberta's interest.

Morton had more answers than Dinning and certainly addressed some critical issues, like infrastructure funding, but I've heard some comments in the media that we might still be 18 months away from an election if Morton wins and I am not sure I would want him in power that long before going to the people of Alberta for a mandate.

I think I would prefer Dinning (actually, I would prefer the Liberals but that will have to wait).


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I'm not sure what is meant by pulling out of equalisation. The program is run with federal revenues and provinces have no say in the matter (aside from standard political stuff) except to ensure that the intent in the constitution is met.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

Beej said:


> I'm not sure what is meant by pulling out of equalisation. The program is run with federal revenues and provinces have no say in the matter (aside from standard political stuff) except to ensure that the intent in the constitution is met.


I just did a quick review on this and you are right, these payments are made from the federal treasury from federal tax dollars. I don't see how we can opt out of this program.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Maybe he meant quasi-equalisation programs like CPP and EI. Could also be intentionally misleading (provs are known to do this on all things "fiscal imbalance") or that he just doesn't get it.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

Beej said:


> Maybe he meant quasi-equalisation programs like CPP and EI. Could also be intentionally misleading (provs are known to do this on all things "fiscal imbalance") or that he just doesn't get it.


He has mentioned setting up an Alberta Pension Plan, so has Stelmach, but I haven't heard anything regarding EI.

Grandstanding against Ottawa is a good way to get the rural vote, even if what you are saying can't be done. Klein was good at that.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Beej said:


> I hope Morton doesn't win but, from Alberta's perspective, he may hold the knife to Ottawa's throat, so to speak.


I can't see Morton "holding a knife" to Harper's throat - but I could see that changing if the Federal Liberals were in power.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> It would be better to keep that option off the table unless or until Ottawa starts talking about a carbon tax or other program not in Alberta's interest


How is a carbon tax not in Alberta's interest when the oil companies themselves are asking for caps and controls so they can start making money from the carbon market.

I'd say it would be in Alberta's interest to pre-empt the Feds on that account as the states are doing in the US ( Supreme court lawsuit by Mass. against the Fed for not acting ).

Anyways I guess we need to see the player who wins first both in Alberta and the Libs.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

zoziw said:


> (actually, I would prefer the Liberals but that will have to wait)


I don't think I would prefer the Liberals, but I would like to see a credible alternative to the Provincial Conservatives.

I don't see why the Provincial Liberals don't take steps to make themselves more palatable to Alberta voters, starting with distancing themselves from the Federal Liberals - any association (even in name only) with the party of PET or JCl is enough to scare off most Albertans.

Given that they haven't won an election in almost 90 years, their current approach certainly isn't working.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

> How is a carbon tax not in Alberta's interest when the oil companies themselves are asking for caps and controls so they can start making money from the carbon market.


When I talk about a carbon tax, I mean a tax on companies based on their carbon dioxide emissions. With the already high costs associated with developing the oilsands in northern Alberta, adding another expense is not something that I can see companies heavily involved with the oilsands supporting.

A very large amount of carbon dioxide is emitted from these operations.

Given that many Albertans view the oilsands as our meal ticket for the next 20 years, anything that would slow production is going to be taken in a very bad light.

With Alberta already running surpluses that rival the federal government, adding another provincial tax to the industry would not go over well. If the federal Liberals added this tax the premier would likely invite the US military to Edmonton and then declare Alberta independent.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

> I don't think I would prefer the Liberals, but I would like to see a credible alternative to the Provincial Conservatives.


What did you not like about their platform last election?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Given that many Albertans view the oilsands as our meal ticket for the next 20 years, anything that would slow production is going to be taken in a very bad light.


Bad light by who......Albertans or the rest of Canada and the world. The latter already view the whole oil sands operation in a bad ight from a pollution standpoint.

*hey Z - set up another thread on this and I think it's a critical issue.- don't want to derail this one*
If NL is required to abide bylaws governing polluting the oceans out their drilling platforms why should Alberta be exempt for air pollution.

I'd be thrilled if an Alberta leader tackled this head on yet no where does it seem in play in the campaign ( maybe I missed it ).
Yet it's a big issue in other political campaigns all over the world.

Is this because of fear of Alberta voters??
Are we out east to believe it's the Albertan voters that are unconcerned or is the Albertan government??

( thinking by comparison the Bush willingness to ignore climate versus the groundswell in the public attention )

The lack of discussion is kind of puzzling viewed from the outside.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

> Bad light by who......Albertans or the rest of Canada and the world. The latter already view the whole oil sands operation in a bad ight from a pollution standpoint.


The context of this thread would be Alberta.



> hey Z - set up another thread on this and I think it's a critical issue.- don't want to derail this one


I'd largely agree with you that implementing some kind of control mechanism on carbon dioxide emissions would be a good thing. I am trying to give some perspective on how PCs in Alberta feel.

Actually, now that I think about it, I am pretty sure the provincial tories put a fairly decent environmental policy into law a few years ago aimed at reducing GHG emissions. It was more robust than the federal Conservatives original plan, I'll see if I can track down that info again.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

zoziw said:


> What did you not like about their platform last election?


That's a big part of the problem - I don't even remember what their platform was, and I follow politics reasonably closely!

I do know that Taft is against pretty much everything that Klein ever said or did - hence my "angry man on a rant" impression. I know that a big part of the role of the opposition is to oppose the government, but they also need to get their message out.

Harper did a good job of this in the last Federal election with his "Five Priorities" - you may or may not like him, but at least you knew what his platform was.

Edit: I don't believe there is any official association between the Federal and Provincial Liberals in Alberta, I believe that the Provincial Liberals would do well to emphasize this fact.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Are we out east to believe it's the Albertan voters that are unconcerned


I believe that many Albertans are quite concerned about environmental issues - look at the relative strength of Green Party support out here as evidence of that.

That said, I expect that there would be broad opposition to any policy that was seen to unfairly target Alberta's interests, especially if it was imposed by Ottawa.

Any meaningful attempt to reduce GHG will need to hit more than just the oil sands. For example, the transportation industry, the auto industry, etc.


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

My prediction for today:

No one can win on the first vote.

More of Stelmach's people will support Morton than Dinning.

I predict a Morton victory.

After reviewing their platforms, and despite his awkwardness on TV, I like Stelmach best, followed by Dinning.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Are first choice results publicised separately, or do they just count second choice (if necessary) and release both results at once?


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## zoziw (Jul 7, 2006)

Here is a link to that environmental legislation I mentioned.

I didn't have time to reread it.

http://www.canlii.org/ab/laws/sta/c-16.7/20050211/whole.html


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

*Ted Morton An American Draft Dodger?*

Writing about Ted Morton, Edmonton Journal columnist Paula Simons:

"A former American left-wing student radical who drew a "lucky" draft lottery number, then moved to Toronto to complete his graduate degrees while his peers were off in Vietnam -- but who now holds himself out as a model of hawkish, right-wing virtue.
An elitist urban academic, who arrived in Calgary in the 1980s, but who now portrays himself as a folksy man of the rural people.
A guy who's imported his political ideology from the United States via Toronto -- and who now has the temerity to tell us that we're the ones who don't have mainstream Alberta values.
A guy who's never run a business, farm, charity, government ministry or town council, but who now expects to run our province."

I had no idea Morton was an American, did anyone else?

Full column:

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/columnists/story.html?id=0fb38ebd-e84d-428a-ab61-893ea82934a4


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

it's a coup


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

All I seem to remember was him being an "elected" senator (senator in waiting). Is that true? 

I don't care where he was born, but politics is a strange career. Many seem to assume you can handle senior political positions with no experience, unlike almost every other job.

..........
parliamentary staffer or a backbench MLA, who now bemoans the evils of big government.
..........

That's some experience, so it isn't just blind populism. I still don't want him to win.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yeah, he was indeed elected as a "senator in waiting".


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sleeper cell  ......and to think THEY almost slipped into Ottawa.

So Sinc who is the right guy and why?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Sleeper cell  ......and to think THEY almost slipped into Ottawa.
> 
> So Sinc who is the right guy and why?


Morton, an American religious fanatic would be the very worst we could do.

That leaves Dining and Stelmach.

Ed is a nice guy, but has the personality of a milk can and is a poor public speaker with no clearly defined policy.

That leaves the best of the worst in Dinning who is smooth, likable and intelligent. He was treasurer under Klein when the really tough calls had to be made and he either is given credit for those moves or disliked because of them.

He's the best of the current lot. Sadly some of the best of the best, did not make the second ballot.

I have met Dinning many times and our daughter taught his children in school when he was treasurer and a single Dad to boot after his wife left. I admired how he kept his children first in his life in spite of his position as treasurer, including serving on the parents school committee and making every meeting.

I guess his performance as premier would be based on those same sets of values and that is not all bad.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Good synopsis.
How many political entities in the world hand over the car keys to the kind of finances Alberta has


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I am awaiting the result of the second vote ballot, but it looks very much like Ed Stelmach will win.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Is it online anywhere?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

No blow by blow but here are a couple:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...124/klein_goodbye_061125/20061126?hub=QPeriod

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/edmonton/story.html?id=9bc8ac30-8b4d-4625-90b1-ae6dc2beb8fe&k=0


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

It's official - Ed Stalmach won the leadership:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/story.html?id=99d4f59a-587d-40fd-8337-51cf61285fa7

Kind of like the "other" leadership convention in some ways, in that he wasn't one of the front runners throughout the campaign.

Looks like both the "anyone but Morton" and "anyone but Dinning" camps put him as their second choice - and he'll certainly be less polarizing than either of the other two.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I worry about his ability to communicate on behalf of the province on the national stage. If you watched his acceptance speech, he is NOT an accomplished public speaker. His handlers will have to work on that weakness if he is to earn any respect outside the province.

A nice, homegrown Alberta boy who hopefully has not been promoted out of his comfort zone.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Maybe he was the beneficiary of all those One day Conservatives.

Apparently Liberals were signing up to vote to defeat Morton 

Perhaps a bit less "abrasive" Alberta leader might be a good idea.
The country could use a little ahem "sober" second thought 

Interesting the direct 1:1 voting instead of delegates.
The Lib convention turned down the motion for that.
I'm not clear which is better.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I got a call this morning from a couple who have been friends for years, one on each phone. They told me to look in my mail box. When I asked why, they told me there was a garlic sausage in it. When did you put it there?, I asked. Ha ha they said in unison. There's one in every mail box in Alberta this morning now that Stelmach is our premier. The joy of this Ukrainian couple at a leader they consider to be "their" kind was obvious.

Geez, even MACSPECTRUM will now have to be careful of insulting Ukrainians if he rants about our new premier like he did against old Ralphie.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

:clap: that's hilarious and very endearing as a community trait.

Sounds like a tale from "direct democracy's" roots in Greece.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

SINC said:


> I worry about his ability to communicate on behalf of the province on the national stage.


I think if he's strong, nationally, behind-the-scenes that would be plenty. Alberta can lead the nation by example with a whole series of reforms, from more savings in the heritage fund, tightening spending even when it doesn't "need" to (would easy pressure on SK and BC) and all sorts of things. Environment, health care etc.

If he sounds like a weakling announcing announcing big ideas that rearrange provincial politics, people will take notice. B.C. and AB, that combined have more people than Quebec, could make a formidable emerging power centre with bigger ideas along the lines of their recent trade agreement. There are many ways for provinces to cooperate, save money and show Ottawa how it's done. But that's optimism. I don't know enough about the guy to be realistic.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

The truly interesting thing about the Alta. Tories's direct voting scenario is how it co-ops non-Tories into the party, giving them a vested interest in how the party does in an election.

How many non-Tories went to the party's polls yesterday, plopped down $5 for a membership, and voted for Dinning or Stelmach to keep Morton out of the premier's office? 

It was certainly easier to do it in a party leadership convention that it would have been in a provincial election.

And now, with a Tory membership card in their pocket, and a party leadership experience behind them, it should be easier for them to vote for Stelmach next time when it really counts.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Beej you've hit on something that always bugged me about Canada.
If we could really evolve into more balanced 5 regions I think making changes and making them fair would be far easier.

But Toronto on one extreme and PEI on the other as political entities really put a spanner in the works 

••••

BrS - interesting insight- never considered that aspect at the individual voter level - engaging in the political process of the opposition IS a way to move to cooperation as there is a stake holding for all.

It IS why I think a Con minority could be a good thing as it gives the right wing minority in the country a reason to engage instead of oppose.

So far not a lot of "meeting of minds" has come about and that's as much the fault of opposition parties as the Cons.

Your insight could be pretty potent on a national scale


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

If every party in the country used the same method of electing a leader as the one used yesterday by the Alberta Conservatives, Canada would have a much better crop of leaders in general and a lot of the so-called "back room boys" would be seeking other employment. The "open to all" preferential ballot served us very well.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

My wife, who was born in TO, but moved to Alberta when she was just one, and raised in Calgary and Edmonton, made an interesting observation. She feels that the selection of Stalmach represents the "breaking away" from the Calgary-centric mentality of the premier of AB. Just like there is a Toronto-centric view of all things in Ontario, when of course, that province is more than just TO, the same holds true for Alberta. Alberta is more than Calgary. While Calgary might represent the apex of the wealth generated in Alberta, that wealth is generated across the province. Thus, Stalmach represents more of the grass-roots of Alberta rather than just Calgary as the center of Alberta. 

This is my wife's view, but it makes sense.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah but Sinc that may only work where there is a large disparity as in Alberta.
Think about another situation where the opposition parties are closely balanced and it could far too easily break down as say "one day" voters tip the balance for one of the parties to the "weakest" opponent.

I think it only works in Alberta as a "check" on the dominant party getting too far in one direction as it did here.

One could equally say Dion's election served well - snubbing the back roomboys as well as Stelmach snubbing Calgary.

The "letting other party members" vote is fraught with minefields where a strong binary or multi party system exists as in Ontario with 3 parties andmaybe 4 ( Greens ).


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Yeah but Sinc that may only work where there is a large disparity as in Alberta.
> Think about another situation where the opposition parties are closely balanced and it could far too easily break down as say "one day" voters tip the balance for one of the parties to the "weakest" opponent.


If *all* parties had this system, things would balance out - and leadership conventions would become like little "mini" elections. I suspect that this would have a moderating influence on the leadership of the various parties, as they would tend towards policies that had grassroots support, rather than being ideologically driven.

The first time the Provincial Conservatives went with the "one member, one vote" style of leadership convention they ended up with Ralph Klein, who was very much a populist and got them the broad support needed to continue their dynasty.

At the time, Nancy Betkowski looked as though she would have won under a "delegate" type leadership convention as she was favored by the "elite" of the old Provincial Conservative party. If this had happened, there was a very real possibility that the Provincial Liberals under Lawrence Decore would have won the 1993 provincial election.

So opening the leadership vote to the general public (or anyone willing to buy a 5$ membership) results in very electable leaders. And how else would you get all those Liberal and NDP supporters to make a 5$ donation to the Conservative party


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Agreed, and well put PenguinBoy.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I supposed it surely would mean getting out the vote big time but I think if you work out the dynamics it would mean the weakest opposition leader would always be elected as if the majority party put in the effort.

If the Conservative leadership convention had been open to the same procedure and based on a popular vote right across the nation who do you think they would have ended up with.

I can almost guarantee you it would NOT have been Harper....might have been Stronach given the number of woman that could vote. 

Flooding key situations would be too easy tho an interesting concept in fund raising.

Hey tell you what - I'm all for the Cons doing it nationally next time 

So

The party picks the candidate slate 
and EVERYONE in the nation gets to vote on that slate??

or is there write ins 

I don't think you guys are thinking this through very well. You are too used to a mono-party state.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> I supposed it surely would mean getting out the vote big time but I think if you work out the dynamics it would mean the weakest opposition leader would always be elected as if the majority party put in the effort.
> 
> If the Conservative leadership convention had been open to the same procedure and based on a popular vote right across the nation who do you think they would have ended up with.
> 
> ...


You seem to be assuming a very large turnout. Even in AB, where it was an election for premier the turnout was about 150,000, I think. People have better things to do. 

Also, for the Conservatives, don't forget that the riding system they used (kept from the PC merger) was to reduce the power of their largely Western grassroots. I think a wide-open Conservative competition would have resulted in Harper anyway.


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

Dr.G. said:


> My wife, who was born in TO, but moved to Alberta when she was just one, and raised in Calgary and Edmonton, made an interesting observation. She feels that the selection of Stalmach represents the "breaking away" from the Calgary-centric mentality of the premier of AB. Just like there is a Toronto-centric view of all things in Ontario, when of course, that province is more than just TO, the same holds true for Alberta. Alberta is more than Calgary. While Calgary might represent the apex of the wealth generated in Alberta, that wealth is generated across the province. Thus, Stalmach represents more of the grass-roots of Alberta rather than just Calgary as the center of Alberta.
> 
> This is my wife's view, but it makes sense.


I agree with Dr.G's wife... she hit the nail on the proverbial head! 

:clap: 

Also, in the event that Stelmach gets as someone else put it "thumped in Ottawa"... well then perhaps Alberta might consider a change from it's Conservative ways for a term or two. The oil sands... this Albertan cares! I don't know what to do about them... but I'm open to suggestions, the way it is now the pollution is intolerable and embarrassing to me as is Harper's attitude toward the environment.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dreambird said:


> Also, in the event that Stelmach gets as someone else put it "thumped in Ottawa"... well then perhaps Alberta might consider a change from it's Conservative ways for a term or two. The oil sands... this Albertan cares! I don't know what to do about them... but I'm open to suggestions, the way it is now the pollution is intolerable and embarrassing to me as is Harper's attitude toward the environment.


So, let me get this straight. Two Liberal governments under Chretien and Martin, do nothing for the environment and allow pollution to blossom well past Kyoto standards. Harper actually introduces legislation aimed at the very least starting the process and that embarrasses you?

Astounding to say the least.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Dreambird said:


> Also, in the event that Stelmach gets as someone else put it "thumped in Ottawa"... well then perhaps Alberta might consider a change from it's Conservative ways for a term or two.


Don't count on it. A much more likely scenario would be for Alberta to consider a change from Stelmach.

The "Natural Ruling Party" of Alberta is *very* good at reinventing themselves when they need to.


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

Harper's government repeatedly states Canada cannot meet it's 2012 Kyoto targets. 
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/11/13/climate-fossil.html

I don't recall Harper being overly enthusiastic about Kyoto though. I'm aware there is some "home grown" plan.


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

This is the kind of thing I'm worried about with the oil sands:

http://www.embassymag.ca/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2005/november/30/oilsands/

That was back when Stéphane Dion was Environment Minister... perhaps he didn't do such a good job under the Liberals then... eh... maybe. But I like his thoughts on the subject... being the leader now he could do something about it... I agree with his assessment that the industries involved should stay in Canada as there is no guarantee of improved scrutiny elsewhere. 

Give the guy a chance and just perhaps we can find a way to develop these resources w/o poisoning the whole place and w/o "ahem"... bankrupting Alberta... 



> The oil reserves of northeastern Alberta, which cover an area about the size of the state of Florida, are second only to Saudi Arabia's.
> 
> "I want these industries to stay in Canada," Mr. Dion, told reporters this week, saying there is no guarantee of improved scrutiny if operations move outside of Canada.
> 
> Mr. Dion vowed to make Canada a leader in innovative technologies such as carbon capture and storage, which traps harmful gases below the earth's surface or along the ocean floor.


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## daBoss (Jun 20, 2003)

Morton seems like he would be a bit more likely to "kick over the anthill" said:


> You wouldn't say that if you has the great misfortune of having him as a prof at university. Absolutely the most narrow-mined arrogant prof I ever had. Part of the sad and angry pseudo-intellectual cadre of profs that followed the godfather of the Republican Party north, Smilin' (not) Tom Flanagan.
> 
> As for this Quote:
> 
> ...


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## daBoss (Jun 20, 2003)

SINC said:


> Writing about Ted Morton, Edmonton Journal columnist Paula Simons:
> 
> "A former American left-wing student radical who drew a "lucky" draft lottery number, then moved to Toronto to complete his graduate degrees while his peers were off in Vietnam -- but who now holds himself out as a model of hawkish, right-wing virtue.
> An elitist urban academic, who arrived in Calgary in the 1980s, but who now portrays himself as a folksy man of the rural people.
> ...


I did. He wears the stars and stripes with pride. In class, most things Canadian were wrong while almost all things American were correct, or I should say 'right'.


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## daBoss (Jun 20, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> The country could use a little ahem "sober" second thought


ROTFLMAO


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

my "little bird" in AB tells me that Stelmach's election was due to Morton supporters choosing Stelmach as their 2nd choice as their process allows for that

Dinning had practically all of Klein's staff working for him and was an early front runner

it was a rejection of the urban slick Calgary based Dinning who lost because he wasn't the 1st choice of enough voters

Morton supporters, many of who are staunch Alberta seperatists, stomached Stelmach more than Dinning

voting lines ups were massive and this in -30 C temps
Albertans really wanted a change


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

As did the Liberals throwing out the old guard.

My frustration with the oil sands is that the even the oil companies have asked for caps so the playing field is level and they can earn $$ on the carbon market.

It's the lack of rapid action at the provincial ( including to some degree Ontario ) and Federal levels that is so frustrating ad the leverage on the sands for reducing GHG emissions is enormous given it's growth and method of extraction.

The lIbs at least paid lip service.
I'd like to see Alberta get the bit in it's teeth as California has done with vehicle emissions and lead the way not follow sullenly along.

And for now the perception of the Fed Cons and I'd Alberta as well is not one of leadership and rapid change.

When the oil companies call for change NOW - it's overdue.

How does that translate into action now?? Don't know.
Dion thinks he can get it moving.

I wish all of Alberta was clamouring for it as well as you have the resources.


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> my "little bird" in AB tells me that Stelmach's election was due to Morton supporters choosing Stelmach as their 2nd choice as their process allows for that
> 
> Dinning had practically all of Klein's staff working for him and was an early front runner
> 
> ...


I'd sooner chew glass than see Morton in office! He's in favour of the most radical Health Care changes including doctors practicing in private and public facilities at the same time... then I'm watching the TV coverage of all this a few days back and when questioned how he would handle abortion he dismissed the question as "stupid"... 
He refused to address the shortage of doctors in the Grande Prairie area or what effect his plans might have on that. My sis can't get in to see her own Doc. for up to 3 weeks. If it's an emergency you go wait at the hospital... The place is growing beyond belief... boom town gone nuts!

I can't remember when now or exactly where but I've already heard of one case of a woman being turned away from some pharmacy here when she presented a prescription for the day-after pill... she had to go elsewhere. That's enough for me!

We don't need a Morton around here...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> my "little bird" in AB tells me that Stelmach's election was due to Morton supporters choosing Stelmach as their 2nd choice as their process allows for that
> 
> Dinning had practically all of Klein's staff working for him and was an early front runner
> 
> ...


For the record MS your "little bird" is up his you-know-what. Stelmach won on the first ballot by 500 votes over Dinning and by a very hefty margin over Morton.

The second ballot, which he didn't even need pushed him to a 25,000 vote lead over Dinning. Those extra votes came from second choice for Dinning as Morton was off the ballot.

Next time maybe ask someone who pays attention to what really happened.


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> As did the Liberals throwing out the old guard.
> 
> My frustration with the oil sands is that the even the oil companies have asked for caps so the playing field is level and they can earn $$ on the carbon market.
> 
> ...


Honestly... I don't know what the story is with most Albertans but I'll tell you they are NOT interested in hearing about nor discussing doing anything about the filth around those precious oil sands! 'Nuff said... that'll probably get me pounced upon good enough... 

Chances are good Dion will get my vote in the next election...


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Dreambird said:


> Honestly... I don't know what the story is with most Albertans but I'll tell you they are NOT interested in hearing about nor discussing doing anything about the filth around those precious oil sands! 'Nuff said... that'll probably get me pounced upon good enough...


I would like to see steps taken to minimize the environmental damage caused by exploiting the tar sands. I also don't think this is the *only* cause of environmental damage in this country, nor the only area that should be cleaned up. I'm sure the auto industry in Ontario could stand some improvement, and I'm sure there are things other industries could do to clean up their act as well.

Individuals should also do their part, perhaps by choosing smaller vehicles, etc.


Dreambird said:


> Chances are good Dion will get my vote in the next election...


Why not the Greens? They stand about as much chance of getting elected in Calgary as the Liberals, but at least if they get enough of the popular vote they won't be excluded from the debates.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dreambird said:


> Chances are good Dion will get my vote in the next election...


You have my sympathy.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> You have my sympathy.



hmmm, Albertans openly supporting Dion
let me mark the date and time
 

dreambird, welcome to the light


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's strange DB ( good post by the way :clap: ).

Conservatism has it's roots in preserving the land for posterity and real small c conservatives should own that territory. Preston Manning said so and Mulroney did so.
The oil patch is asking for caps.
So I agree ...what's with the resistance 

As for Ontario - no question but $$ play a part and while it's a have province it's also in "needs refreshing mode" unlike Alberta's bags of dollars rolling in.

I'd love to see Alberta finance long term green projects ( Superfund idea ) and get a fair return on it.

If Siemens can see a return on building retrofits surely that's a good way to string out Alberta's riches far beyond oil.
Becoming an energy province can mean expertise in a dozen areasn not just mining oil and pissing out pollutants while doing so ( far worse than Saudi where it's basically just pumping - not so much extracting. )

Embracing, hell being the centre of the universe for the emerging carbon market is a terrific opportunity.

Perhaps rather than sausages in the mailbox the relevant portion of the Stern report on emerging business opportunities in carbon and green industries.

But the whole country is behind Europe and even cities like Portland.
I don't know what it takes to get a fire lit ( a green fire that is  )
Those condo owners in Toronto saving $150,000 a year in energy costs due to retrofits sure understand the benefits. Why not more people? 

Gov does need to get really serious with carrot and stick legislation - that opens the opportunities up and creates a level playing field for innovation and seed money for change.
The latter is where I see Alberta could be a world leader.

Ontario could do more faster as well but it's a trickier process to maintain manufacturing competitiveness.....still the Ford plant in Oakville is very green by design.

I see amazing engineering projects around the world, that bridge in France is one, Japan's bullet trains, Hong Kong's airport to name just a couple.

Where is vision in Canada that built the nation's communications systems, the transport, the James Bay Project and the St. Lawrence Seaway.

It seems all we do it bicker and pay politicians too much for very little.


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

PenguinBoy said:


> I would like to see steps taken to minimize the environmental damage caused by exploiting the tar sands. I also don't think this is the *only* cause of environmental damage in this country, nor the only area that should be cleaned up. I'm sure the auto industry in Ontario could stand some improvement, and I'm sure there are things other industries could do to clean up their act as well.
> 
> Individuals should also do their part, perhaps by choosing smaller vehicles, etc.


Agreed... the oil sands are not the *only* cause of pollution and environmental damage in this country however they are a *major* contributor... 

Another quote from the link I posted on page 7:



> Rapid production of the Alberta oilsands will account for nearly half of the projected rise in greenhouse gas emissions in Canada by 2010, making it the country's fastest growing source of pollution, according to data released yesterday by the Pembina Institute.


So now would be a good time to consider ways of cleaning the process up.
Uuuhhmm... we are supposed to be part of the country of Canada yes? I personally get a little sick of pointing fingers anyway... either it's Quebec or it's Alberta. We have a mess here... it needs some cleaning up.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

There was a big article on the impact on the water in Alberta as well.
http://www.energybulletin.net/22348.html

This impact spreads to Sask and NWT and opens up Alberta to legal action ( ala the Great Lakes shared resources ).

I guess I find it most frustrating that the oil companies are on side for legislation for caps now ( so they say ) but then the Cons come up with a 2050 before mandatory caps.

That smacks of irresponsibility at best and surely Alberta doing it before the Feds is a REALLY SMART move.

What is the new leaders stance?? or is it off the radar entirely as you seem to indicate?


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

Thank-you MacDoc... you have some very interesting suggestions there!  :clap: 

As to what's the resistance here in Alberta?    

You got me! I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this place is still smarting over Trudeau and his NEP when they should be letting go of the past. I know on a personal level how important that is...  The province is ridiculously prosperous... there's plenty of funds to put back into research and development for the environment.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The NEP memory should be even more reason to pre-empt giving Ottawa a reason for acting.

I actually think there is some good research in this area at U of A....but "where's the beef"?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> What is the new leaders stance?? or is it off the radar entirely as you seem to indicate?


Here is a pretty thorough profile of the man. He is more a common man than a politician, but he has honour in all he has done:

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/story.html?id=b9b5fc9b-cafd-4587-8175-603702bd9224&k=0


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> There was a big article on the impact on the water in Alberta as well.
> http://www.energybulletin.net/22348.html
> 
> This impact spreads to Sask and NWT and opens up Alberta to legal action ( ala the Great Lakes shared resources ).
> ...


Wow... thanks for that link, I didn't know the magnitude of the amount of water that was being wasted and polluted... and that's besides the emissions.

It's too soon to know what the new leader's stance might be... but one can hope. I'm pleased with the result of that election so now we'll see. 

Myself... I agree with this from that link:



> It recommends a moratorium on further oilsands projects until the water problems can be solved.
> 
> The oilsands yielded more than one million barrels of oil per day in 2005. However, the study suggests the oilsands may be exhausted of oil by mid-century.


And yes... I also agree that "fear" of Federal intervention should be an impetus to moving the Provincial gov. I submit that fear will become real and gripping when Dion becomes PM next spring!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Good article - sounds like he has his head screwed on straight.
I like the anecdote about future PM - who knows.

So Sinc or anybody who are the "back room boys" in Alberta and are they "for him or agin him"??

Sounds like Dinning was their boy.

This has been a good education for me.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Embracing, hell being the centre of the universe for the emerging carbon market is a terrific opportunity.


A logical fallacy. It will be extremely expensive and Canada would bear the brunt of developing the technology without any guarantee of royalties or future economic benefit. Who would be Alberta's "customers" and how likely is it that they could protect the intellectual property they would develop?

If you want to sell this idea, sell it on real terms, not as a fairy tale.


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