# Matrix: Reloaded - first reaction (long)



## iLabmAn (Jan 1, 2003)

Well. I have NOT seen the movie yet, but after reading a Time article and today's Toronto Star, I am in fear that the Wachowski bros have sold us out. As my friend Garth Franklin reports:

We've been kind of spoiled lately in regards to major action/fantasy movie sequels with both "The Two Towers" and "X2" proving as good as if not better than their predecessors, and now along comes 'Reloaded' which sadly fails to join that category. 1999's "The Matrix" was a visually cool fusion of Hong Kong action, leather, and genre sci-fi which surprised many people - sure it followed the same 'chosen one discovers himself' religious metaphor storyline which many a sci-fi adventure had trodden countless times before, but there was something compelling about its questioning of existence and its setup that reality was just a computer program designed by machines to keep humans under control. The action from an initial rooftop chase to a kung fu dojo fight had a feeling of freshness about it and added to the story which admittedly got a little heavy on the exposition at times but set things up pretty clearly and cleverly.

'Reloaded' on the other hand, whilst having some jaw dropping sequences, is a rather convoluted mess which alternates between long gaps of spelled out plot-driven dialogue or pointless philosophising, and action packed fight sequences of such an elaborate nature that their concept is ultimately more exciting than their very slick but somewhat flat execution. Like 'Two Towers' this throws you right into the action and expects you to not only remember the big points but lots of small details from the first one so the average punter who has not watched it in a while should rewatch the old one otherwise they'll get lost quite quickly. 

Lets start with the most basic problem before we move into the more detailled ones, and that is simply that the Real World is so much more boring than the Matrix. With the exception of the very start, the opening 40 minutes is set in and around Zion - a kind of 'Beyond Thunderdome' post-apocalyptic world where various characters from the jealous military commander to standard elderly bureaucrat talk, and talk, and talk some more although they really have nothing to say - from the annoying kid with hero worship and the oh so woeful 'we will resist' rallying speech to the badly acted pissed off wife who doesn't like her husband being out on duty so much, this feels more like a really dull "Star Trek" bottle episode than one of the most expensive movies ever made (in fact without the standard and somewhat cartoony "Star Wars"-esque establishing scenery FX shot every two minutes this is almost "Days of our Lives Underground"). The tribal-rhythm themed rave party scene swaps between transparently clothed sweaty body grinding to the underwhelming one-on-one sex between the pale black-haired emasciated waifs Neo & Trinity (who are starting to look so much like brother & sister it's kind of creepy).

Thankfully the story quickly picks up as Neo enters the Matrix and starts his quest although its not a very linear one as the objective of the characters seems to change about every half hour. Along the way though the supporting characters are what really help make this a memorable adventure, the most notable of which being Hugo Weaving who's returned as the now free agent Smith who has a new ability to copy himself and its this rogue nature which makes him not only unpredictable but one of the few 'fresh' things about the movie. A scene in which at first a dozen, then twenty, then over a hundred copies of Smith battle it out on a vacant lot with Neo is easily the most impressive and enjoyable action sequence of the whole film (even the freeway chase lacks the quirkiness this scene brings to the table) and the character utilises his screentime quite well.

Newcomers also add to this - Monica Bellucci as the somewhat dark seductress Persephone and Lambert Wilson as the arrogant Merovingian appear and dominate the screen for about 20 minutes in the film's most unusual sequences which plays more like a European comedy than comic book sci-fi but oddly enough in between the French cursing and dessert gag it actually works. Randall Kim makes the essentially small Keymaker role into something quite likable, however the much touted 'Twins' are one-note henchman with about one line of dialogue and nothing special short of their overly used immaterial ghost trick and a penchant for old fashioned barber razors as weapons. Jada Pinkett-Smith did better than I expected and has a well-kept fierceness to her character, whilst Helmut Bakaitis does an interesting job in the strange and philosophy heavy meeting scene with 'The Architect'. The rest of the supporting cast from Clayton Watson as the kid to Steve Bastoni as Capt. Soren are a complete white wash though - it really gets like bad sci-fi cable TV at times in Zion.

The regulars lack the spark or fun of their previous encounter. The wise Morpheus has just become a grandstander interested only in the sound of his own voice. All the growth and change Neo went through in the first film seems to have been retracted somewhat and his character stays essentially the same throughout. Trinity has gone from cool stylish babe with a heart to ice queen extraordinare. Short of the aforementioned Weaving, the only one who continues to impress is Gloria Foster who makes a welcome one scene return as the wise but humoured Oracle - it's not till her scene in fact the movie starts having any real life (she's preceeded by a useless fight scene between Neo & her aide 'Seraph').

The action is ultimately disappointing - with the sole exception of that Neo vs. many Smiths fight, the kung fu action is impressive technically but feels so rehearsed and stilted that you don't care. It is also overused to the point that everything settles in a predictable pattern so that you get one at least every 20 minutes and none of them really have any heft as they become overused and monotonous. The freeway chase is long and flat - from the bad blue screen of a truck top fight to a car interior fight with a Twin it all seems like overkill - the sole exception is Trinity and the Keymaker's motorbike chase into oncoming traffic, its probably because it is a wild real stunt rather than FX trickery that it at least gives the impression of real danger. The FX though for all their wildness are of top quality and its really hard to spot any seams or rough edges to them.

There's a penchant for philosophy even more this time around - the first film was all about the nature of existence, this time it all about the nature of free will and choice, with various characters from The Oracle to Merovingian to The Architect going on and on about it in more increasingly complex ways. Up till near the end I had no problem understanding it even though others around me were scratching heads, when the film explodes into one of the longest monologues you'll ever hear it does get somewhat jumbled though I got the point, but even those with a penchant for existentialism will have difficulty keeping up let alone the general public. As the Wachowski's are well known for loving the subject, these frequent complete stops in the story to indulge in some banal attempt to explain Life, The Universe & Everything feels like a big indulgent wank on their part to the point I was worried this was turning into something along the lines of that utter piece of self-loving sh*t that was "Vanilla Sky".

The anti-climactic ending may also upset some as it really ends at an odd spot (a few minutes earlier would've been better). I know people are going to use the old excuses 'it is only half a movie' or 'the middle part of a trilogy' to cover some of the faults but that's an utter cop out - those wannabe filmmakers who do tend to use it should watch more multi-year arcing genre television, they may learn a thing or two about effective linear storytelling). The "Star Wars" and "Back to the Future" movies ended on cliffhanging second movies and yet everyone is more than happy to judge their film entries separately. 'Reloaded' should stand on its own, and it does albeit on creaky legs. The ordinary heavy rock score and quick cut editing don't help though.

Am I being too hard on it? Maybe. As much as there's some glaring faults there's also quite a bit to like here. The first hour may be almost a total wash but the rest can get quite compelling at times. It's overly talky, looks great, feels somewhat cold, most certainly indulgent and will no doubt make a lot of money as despite its problems I would go see it again soon in an effort to try and see if I missed anything that may help comprehend it better. The first film I wasn't majorly impressed by the first time I saw it in a cinema either, it took several post-hype viewings on DVD before I really appreciated it and came to look above its faults. It's just a little sad when the spectacular teaser for 'Revolutions' at the end of the credits was better than anything in 'Reloaded'. So compared to the first film and the hype it's a disappointment, compared to the average Summer blockbuster it's at least trying to be something more but does it in the wrong way, compared to movies this year so far its better than average. Entertaining with a few eyebrow raising moments but ultimately nothing special. Skip the first 45 minutes and learn up your Jean-Paul Satre or Friedrich Nietzche and you'll probably enjoy it more. Its got some great moments but the Gestalt theory doesn't apply here."

We will have to wait and see.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

The one thing Hollywood has always been good at is recognizing an opportunity to make money while wrapping themselves in the shawl of "artistic expression."

It's all about power, politics and money.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

2 hours and 20 minutes or so actually.

The first 40 minutes is alright, but it did not have the "feeling" of The Matrix, this is more than likely because it is in Zion, not the Matrix.

The next 100 minutes, primarily inside the Matrix, got me back somewhat.

I have to say I am a little underwhelmed. Maybe my expectations were a little high, or maybe the films would have been better made as a trilogy as originally intended, but somehow this one was missing something. Oh yeah, an ENDING.










--PB

[ May 16, 2003, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: PosterBoy ]


----------



## Tomac (Dec 31, 2002)

I completely agree about the first 40 min being a wash. Chatter chatter chatter. It did not have the “feel” of The Matrix. The remainder got me back in the groove.

[ May 16, 2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Tomac ]


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

1st 40 min. was a wash, but 2nd half was better
80 min. movie?


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

The "Ending" is in the can awaiting your next $15 price of entry. The movie made over US$42 million on Thursday alone. That ending is secure.....


----------



## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

Not nearly as good as the first one. I would have to say 9 for the effects and a decent movie if someone was going for effects only. 5 for the storyline. Overall I would give it a 6 it is just an above average movie. I was hoping it would be a little better. One of the major problems I had was how ultra unrealistic it was. Fighting the hoards of guys and flying kinda downgraded it for me.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

After reading the seemingly endless reviews on the net (not necessarily here), I've come to the conclusion that most people have no perception of a good movie.  

I was completely ready to be underwhelmed by what seemed by most to be initially 40 minutes of unecessary exposition... to the contrary, I think Reloaded is an absolutely *fantastic* movie!

Chatter be damned.

I think Reloaded allowed the audience peek into what was then unseen -- only talked about (Zion and it's history, way of life, etc.) and provided a good "face" to what Neo et al were fighting for.

The acting was at par, hell better in a lot of cases, to the original Matrix and the new characters provided some depth (which a lot of sequels tend to lack, IMHO).

Reloaded held my attention and captivated me from start to finish. It's definitely a movie I will go see again -- very soon. Some people have mentioned LOTR2 and SW:EP2 as superior sequels... to that I say: poppycock!









Aside from my obvious enjoyment of the movie (gush, gush) there are some things that kind of stuck out:

</font>
*The Lighting:* For some reason or another, people have voice that they felt Reloaded "looked" different, that it wasn't as dark as the Matrix. I found it particularly odd. I think it has the very atmosphere that the Matrix conveyed -- even with new places like Zion. Oh well.</font>
*Burly Brawl:* I think most people could tell when "real" Neo appeared, and when "CGI stunt double" Neo appeared. Not to diminish the work the Visual Effects folk had done -- it was amazing despite the negative remarks by those who generalize digital imagineering as a "push-button", off the shelf movie in a box. However digital Neo did look a little less... detailed? It seemed that Neo was slightly out of focus from time to time -- or the textures used for Neo wasn't high-enough resolution when it came time to render the scenes.

Which leads me to...</font>
*CGI Stunt doubles:* Some folk were disappointed with the alleged over-use of digital stunt doubles. Personally, I think the film-makers pushed their actors as far as they could short of putting them in mortal danger. There are some scenes (such as the Freeway chase) that were so real, that it wasn't until the camera pulled a physically impossible angle (like during the scence when Trinity is on the crotch-rocket heading towards highway traffic that I suddenly realised that the camera had just passed underneath a transport and continued through the rear-tires -- between the center axle. Up until that point, I thought the scene was completely real -- which is saying a lot. I'd like to pride myself on being able to pick out CGI elements due to my intense interest and (although amateur by Matrix standards) experience in CGI graphics.</font>
*Cave Rave:* Some people thought it was excessive... it didn't bother me at all. I thought it fit perfectly -- to quote one reviewer:

_The celebration at Zion is something entirely different, and I?d even argue that it?s crucial, just like the love scene that unfolds at the same time. There is a war going on... man versus machine... and these people in Zion have things that they can share that the machines will never understand, no matter how long they study us. Things like simple physical pleasure, emotional release, and sexual chemistry. Neo and Trinity don?t just bond over shared danger or a common purpose. There?s genuine heat between them, and in the face of possible death, it makes sense to reaffirm the charge of life that comes from intimacy with someone else. That?s what those people are celebrating. That?s what makes them dance. No machine would ever think to dance as a way of expression. It?s not logical. It?s not reasonable. It?s pure visceral emotion, and even if the scene goes on too long for its own good, it manages to establish that there is joy in this world, something good worth fighting for._</font>
*The Score:* I believe a reviewer or two from Aint it Cool News thought the soundtrack was, at times, drawing attention to itself and stuck out like a sore thumb. I loved it -- very much akin to the original Matrix.</font>
*Link:* Again, some other folk thought he was a useless piece of story mechanics (comedic element with no real use) and felt that Tank would have been a much better character. Maybe Tank would have been better -- but we'll never know; I do know that Link was a solid character played by a solid actor whom did no harm to the story. He added a much needed side of humanity to contrast the main characters.</font>
Aside from that, judging from the last 15-20 minutes of the movie, Revolutions is going to take us in an amazing, and mind-bending direction. I know for a fact that some people will scratch their head and say _Huh, what the [email protected]$%? is this crap? Oh, that's a stupid ending!?!_. I can just sense it. (Anyone catch 314?  )

Anyway, as long winded as my 2 pennies may be... if anyone says that the Wachowski brothers were looking to make a sure buck (ie Selling Out), then they wouldn't have spent so much time and energy with such a rich story based in Theology, Mythology blended with worldly cultures and ideas. They earned every penny they made/make from the Matrix/Animatrix movies.

*Ten-fold*

Anyway, just go see it. Make up your own mind.

[ May 16, 2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: mannyp ]


----------



## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

I went and saw the Matinee today, and well it isn't the first movie, as everything has changed now. And well, it was an ABSOLUTELY AWESOME movie!!!







Can't wait for the third. Like the original, you'll most likely either love it or hate it.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

I never meant to convey that I didn't like the first 40 minutes, just they they felt different. The real world didn;t seem as harsh as it did in the first movie. Also, the blue tinge either wasn't as prominent or wasn't there at all in Zion (it was there in the real world after Zion).

As to the CGI, the nay-sayers about it can bite me. Sure, you could always tell when it was CG and when it wasn't, but ask them one question:

"When before have you seen anything else that good?"

I did like the further explanations of the Matrix and its inhabitants and I also have some theories about the next movie. Needless to say, I am quite excited to see the next one.

--PB


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I should have added a proviso in my post that my concerns of reviewers comments predominantly had to do with those on other entertainment sites or message boards.  

It was seeming that everyone was sharing the same opinion of Reloaded and it wasn't looking very bright for the Matrix's future.  

Good reviews seemed few and far between.


----------



## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Will we see more or less of this?

Escape 'The Matrix,' Go Directly to Jail

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1323-2003May16.html

"n January, while sitting in his cell in the Fairfax jail, Malvo made drawings and wrote notes around them. In two pages obtained by The Washington Post, he wrote: "Wake up! Free your mind, you are a slave to the matrix 'control.' . . . The outside force has arrived. Free yourself of the matrix 'control.' Free first your mind. Trust me!! The body will follow. Remove fear, doubt, distrust, watch the change then."


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

I can hear the commerical now...

"Have you been unduly influenced by "The Matrix? Do you believe you have stepped through the 'looking glass?'
Call 1-800-MATRIX1 !
We'll direct you to the nearest telephone booth and zip you into our office to meet with our specialized lawyers.

You ARE the one."

[cue heavy sounds of judge's hammer]


----------



## iLabmAn (Jan 1, 2003)

Well, I am planning to see the Matrix: Reloaded Monday with a ton of my friends so that should be a blast. We're all the same age (34) and we weaned on Blade Runner-ish type films.

I guess the reason for my trepidation lies in the fact that my students - aged 13/14 are all planning to go see it because they think the Matrix is cool and yeah. They are treating this like any other bubble gum movie. Their eyes glaze over with talk of alternate realities and also balk at my attempts to tie the themes to earlier (and in some case, better) films like:

- Dark City
- Blade Runner
- Minority Report

and stories like:

- Farenheit 451
- 1984

They live in such the hear and now it sickens me. And then I recall how I was when I was that age and....

...realize again that 13 and 14 year olds in this time need a serious kick in the ego.

Oh. I reeaaallly ticked them off Friday when I said that the story was written for my age and a little younger and not for kiddies like them.


----------



## Peter Scharman (Jan 4, 2002)

Well, I went to see the movie with my Sci-Fi loving wife. We were both riveted to the screen for the entire movie. The first half hour was not so action packed, but was hardly boring. Quite the visual and mental experience.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

So the darling miss M is still hooked on Sci-Fi eh.
Ask here if she's read the Kushiel's Dart series by Jacqueline Carey yet........and see if she blushes









If she hasn't she's in a for a treat


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

People who expected something really similar to the first film had (or have) skewed expectations. You can't establish the same mood because we know what the matrix is now (or at least we think we know and, in any case, we definitely do know more).

The third movie is really going to determine my final opinion because there are numerous hints of possibly brilliant and wonderful things going to develop. 

The effects are great in _The Matrix Reloaded_. Some of the dialogue is cheesy and so are some of the subplots but the movie is more about stylish special effects and intriguing ideas anyway.

I'd be interesting in engaging in a critical discussion of ideas such about the Oracle, the Architect and the possible matrix inside the matrix.

For any PS2 or XBox users, *Enter the Matrix* is a fun game with 1 hour of extra movie footage in it! In fact, the Wachowski brother's wrote the script, which extends and intertwines with the plot of _Reloaded_.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

See, I thought Reloaded had (generally speaking) the same mood as the first, but it was evolving (like the story/characters). It was introducing new elements, but to me stayed true to the original. Remember seeing the monitors in the first Matrix, how they would occasionally show you key scenes, like Neo's interrogation, which then would pass through into the scene itself? I never thought about it until I saw Reloaded where we are shown where those monitors are, and who's watching.   (Another interesting, but mind-bending plot point). Don't blink... or you'll miss something.







 

Sometimes you'll see movie sequels that look out of place, like they don't belong in the same universe. I think the Matrix isn't one of them. I noticed that in some key scenes, the Wachowski's used similar lighting techniques and in some cases -- coloured the overall scenes with a slight "green" tint.

Aside from that, I loved the conversation between the Oracle and Neo... it gave the machines a near-human face and showed that no matter what side you're on... there's no such thing as a black and white, good or bad. Not everyone wants total power or control over another... anyway, I'd like to post more about it, but I don't want to spoil it for those who have yet to see it.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Possible spoilers - warning - if you haven't seen the movie, you may wanna skip this.... (I've tried to keep it oblique).

I also thought it was a great movie. Of course its abstract and full of questions (like why the Caddie drove so well with so many bullet holes....). Agent Smith and the twins were cool too. In fact, I thought the twins were a neat effect.

But there was a deeper undertow to this movie. Very near the end, Neo did something, but he wasn't in the Matrix. How was that "possible"? When he triggered the alarms by exiting the door in the Source, what were the consequences to the Matrix? The "boring" talk scenes as well as the scheme with the Oracle discussed several views of existentialism. Cause and effect. Control. Symbiosis, etc. These were somewhat out of place until you heard the Source. Neo said something was a lie. So what will replace that lie? I've trying to figure out some of the bigger picture (going back to the title). If this was number six, why did it takes the machines so long? What is wrong with a frontal assault? There were other bits that I didn't catch in time (such as a comment by Neo at one point that it "felt like the corridor").

Anyway, I like movies that leave me asking questions. The reason, I think, that some didn't think this movie compared with the first movie is because it is of course, based on the same premise. It was the careful explanation of that initial premise that made movie 1 so compelling. Movie 2 fills in additonal gaps but injects more anomalies which have to be dealt.

The only thing that I wasn't too impressed with was the delivery of dialogue by some of the players. It reminded me of Princess Amitola or whatever her name was in Episodes 1 and 2 of Star Wars.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I've slept on it and I'm still putting bits together. Like Persimone. Is there more to her? What was with the kiss (a future wedge, to determine whether there was more to the Matrix). Why did she use only one silver bullet? How can a person become infected? Hopefully, these questions won't be a wasted distraction. I also saw Insomnia last night on TV. Bad sign....









Go see it people! Get out of it whatever you want. The Wachowski brothers wil get their cut no matter...


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

You know how they referred to Werewolves, Ghosts and such? Well, Persephone is a Vampire -- of emotions (not to mention another tie to mythology). With a single touch, she can feel exactly what the person she's touching can feel. Most likely a loose referral to the myth of Persephone's abuduction by Hades, etc.

A silver bullet is what kills Werewolves.  

If you get a chance, get Time's special Matrix Issue. They talk about all things Matrix-ish.


----------



## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

Well, everyone seems to have liked it for the most part. I thought Reloaded was an absolutely horrible movie. For the first hour I felt like leaving the theatre. Then it got a little better. I can't quite put my finger on what was wrong with it, but it felt like a cheesy action movie. The editing was way off, especially in regards to constantly switching between CG stunt doubles and live actors.

The movie had cool ideas, a very neat story in its pure form, but the presentation of that story was terrible. All the actors, Keanu, Carrie-Ann, Laurence, they just sucked. I don't know, maybe it wasn't their fault, maybe it was just the weak script.

The "love" between Neo and Trinity, as far as I can tell, its not there. They barely said a word to each other, or even looked at each other the whole movie.

And whats up with Smith... it seems like they brought him back for absolutely nothing at all, just because he was cool, "was" being the key word there. But maybe he will make more sense in the next movie.

The action sequences seemed forced. Especially the first few, the one with the agents, the one the Oracle's body guard, and the one with Smith.

Whats up with Kernel Sanders? I kept expecting 'The Architect' to offer Neo a bucket of wings or something.

The execution of the plot is just stupid. Basically for the movie to make any sense you have to justify to yourself with various excuses why, for example Neo has all these abilities yet he can't re-open one of those hacked doors to get back to the previous location. The justification works, but I shouldn't have to do this as often as it is needed in this movie. Again, though, some of these things might get fixed in the next movie, but I doubt it.

I wish they had never made this movie. The entire thing is laughable. I felt like crying after seeing it, as I had waited for almost three years to see it and was severely dissapointed. I want my 2 hours and 20 minutes back.

I enjoyed the Animatrix far more, and can't wait for the DVD release, I believe next month.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

> Well, everyone seems to have liked it for the most part. I thought Reloaded was an absolutely horrible movie. For the first hour I felt like leaving the theatre. Then it got a little better. I can't quite put my finger on what was wrong with it, but it felt like a cheesy action movie. The editing was way off, especially in regards to constantly switching between CG stunt doubles and live actors.


Horrible? That's a strong word. The Clone Wars was borderline horrible. LOTR2 was getting pretty dull. Reloaded was a rare treat with the sub-par sequels we've been getting lately (X2 included).

The editing was fine -- especially given the fact that a lot of the visual effects were cutting edge and that nothing like this has ever been attempted; unfortunately the integration of the CG actors was indeed a little off and quite noticable in some instances.



> The movie had cool ideas, a very neat story in its pure form, but the presentation of that story was terrible. All the actors, Keanu, Carrie-Ann, Laurence, they just sucked. I don't know, maybe it wasn't their fault, maybe it was just the weak script.


I thought they were fine, same for the script. IMHO. Although I tend to reserve the suck category for anything Rob Schneider related.  



> The "love" between Neo and Trinity, as far as I can tell, its not there. They barely said a word to each other, or even looked at each other the whole movie.


What does Neo need to do? Quote a sonnet? Maybe send her some roses?  I think the writers were banking on the hopes that you at least saw the first Matrix... so they didn't need to hammer the lovey-feeley stuff for another 2 hours.



> And whats up with Smith... it seems like they brought him back for absolutely nothing at all, just because he was cool, "was" being the key word there. But maybe he will make more sense in the next movie.


Agent Smith is now a virus that threatens Zion and the Matrix's world. He is the antagonist.







What I would like to know is the story behind his ressurection and how he got into the back doors.



> The execution of the plot is just stupid. Basically for the movie to make any sense you have to justify to yourself with various excuses why, for example Neo has all these abilities yet he can't re-open one of those hacked doors to get back to the previous location. The justification works, but I shouldn't have to do this as often as it is needed in this movie. Again, though, some of these things might get fixed in the next movie, but I doubt it.


The answers that you are looking for will be addressed in the next movie.

I think a lot of people read WAY too much into the ending of the first Matrix movie. I mean, he becomes "the One" and we are left with his ability to fly, fight faster than any agent, etc. ... since when did he become an omnipotent force that can do everything? Now how good would the movie be if Neo spent the first hour smashing and crash through every barrier imaginable... how entertaining would it be to see the protagonist breeze through everything?



> I wish they had never made this movie. The entire thing is laughable. I felt like crying after seeing it, as I had waited for almost three years to see it and was severely dissapointed. I want my 2 hours and 20 minutes back.


Oh well. C'est la vie. Can't please everyone, I guess. At least you'll know not to bother with the next Revolutions.



> I enjoyed the Animatrix far more, and can't wait for the DVD release, I believe next month.


Yes, it should be pretty entertaining. "The Renaissance part 1" was quite amazing (although Part 2 is kind of pointless -- more like an after thought that wasn't really necessary to an already brilliant vignette)... as was "Detective Story".


----------



## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

I saw the movie and I must admit I was underwhelmed, While I don't think it was a horrible movie, I think there is a much better movie inside screaming to get out.

I posted more detailed thoughts here. There are spoilers there, so if you've not seen the film you might want to skip the link.


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

I agree with jfpoole that there was a better movie lurking within the film. I wonder if the scenes had been re-edited or some reshot, would the movie have been far superior. My compaint - as well as many peoples - is the first 40 minutes or so were rather slow and somewhat obvious. The love scene between Neo and Trinity was perhaps too flat but more so it took too long to come to pass. Another complaint a friend of mine raised, and I agree with him, is that the car chase scene went on too long. It was visually stunning but it took a long time to get back to the plot.

After watching the film a second time, I still enjoyed the ending of Reloaded. And now I think I enjoyed it more than the original movie. The original was a heart-warmer that tugged on my emotions and deep-dwelling romantic beliefs. However, it was unsatisfying with my cynical side that saw the original ending as re-instating predominant (bourgeois) values (such as. heterosexuality, Christianity, love conquers all, man over machine, etc.). I liked the ambiguity in the end of Reloaded. I liked that the machines and humans were well-rounded and didn't fall into the reductive categories of good or evil, wrong or right. I liked the complications and plot twists. Is it that some people like a clear resolution at the end of their films? Have we become to accustomed to nicely wrapped Hollywood endings? I myself prefer a challenge. I want to have to contemplate things. I won't go as far as to say that Reloaded was a deep thinking film but it did present various interesting and theoretical ideas. 

Ultimately I stick to what I said earlier. The next movie will make or break my overall opinion of Reloaded and perhaps the whole Matrix franchise. 

Interesting note: _Merovingian_ is the name of a group in France who claimed they were the direct descendents of Jesus.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

So, what's the evidence that Zion is not just another VR level of the Matrix?


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

I enjoyed the Movie. Yeah there were some boring moments, but I think some of them were needed to give some background.

I have to say the scene I really liked, was the gates of Zion, these big massive doors opening and this exoskeleton Mech guarding the gate with these two big rifles. I got a kick out of the Mech twirling the rifles before holstering them. Hey, what can I say, I really like Mechs.

The scenes inside the Matrix I really liked was the fight with the Smiths, the "superman" scenes, and the one scene where Neo says the corny line "Hey, upgrades" after fighting an agent I believe. 

I thought the idea of the prophecy being another mechanism of control was a good plot.


----------



## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

jwoodget, that is exactly what I found most exciting about this one, and why I shut my eyes, closed my ears and hummed quietly when the trailer for Matrix 3 came on after the credits.

The Oracle, the prophesies ... what is the evidence that they are just another level of control. Or is there evidence that they are something more? The Architect and the Oracle ... what are they, why do they seem on equal footing? Why can you only reach them through the Matrix?


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Ohhh... by the way did anyone else stay till the end of the credits (man there are alot of credits) to see the teaser for the next Matrix movie?


----------



## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

> The Oracle, the prophesies ... what is the evidence that they are just another level of control. Or is there evidence that they are something more? The Architect and the Oracle ... what are they, why do they seem on equal footing? Why can you only reach them through the Matrix?


Note sure if you wanted these questions answered, but, the proof that the Oracle and prophecies are another level of control is given out by the architect and prophet. The prohpet says she is just another program of the Matrix. This also answers why you can only reach them, or at least the prophet, through the Matrix as they are programs in the Matrix. They aren't real people. .... or are they? Actually, does the architect ever say he's a program?


----------



## VertiGoGo (Aug 21, 2001)

Special effects: Great!

Story: Yawn-city. There was no climax. And then it just ends. It would have been nice to have a bit of closure to something in Reloaded and then move on to the final installment. 

And something my partner and I didn't like was the gratuitous use of swearing that was simply not needed. The original Matrix did not have this and was a great film. This one added it and we thought it detracted from the characters. 

Suffice it to say, we will watch Matrix: Revolutions on video. 

Also...stick to the end of the really long credits if you want to see a teaser trailer of the final installment.


----------



## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

Was there that much swearing in TM:R? I didn't notice it, but then again maybe I've become desensitised over the years....


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I went again Monday to see Reloaded with a little more subjective mind and really pay attention to the story/dialogue and subtext.

I still love it. But, I began picking out more VFX anomalies that kind of stuck out (like Smith's "floating head over a double's body" trick at the end of the Burly Brawl when Neo left) and occasionally the "cloned" footage of Smith reappearing in the same frame from a different angle (various nuances repeated at times when Smith would turn, or walk -- you could tell the footage was the same, only shot from a different angle).

I think the architect is a machine, or program. It would only make sense since the first versions of the Matrix had been a failure. That's my guess.

However, the Oracle isn't (I believe) anywhere near the level of the Architect (or so one would be led to believe judging from the Architect's scroff at the title bestowed upon the Oracle). The Oracle was merely a program developed (presumably by the architect) to observe the patterns of the world that was created. My guess is that her program evolved to a point where she could anticipate the outcome of any given event which may have caused her to go in exile.

I think to an extent, the architect is supposed to be God. A bearded man observing the world he created who is visited by Neo who entered through a door of white light.

Anyway, those are just my theories... I'll have to get ahold of the script some time and maybe pay visit to the Matrix's site to read up on their Philosophy section.


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

The credits were dang long! And the trailer at the end was only a TEASER! The theatre employee told us there was a "trailer" after the film - not a teaser. 

The teaser didn't reveal much of anything.

The interesting implication is that Counsellor Hammond might have been a previous "One." It would fit with his discussion with Neo and what the architect says about the One being given the choice to rebuild Zion. Obviously all the previous Ones had chosen to rebuild Zion. This aspect still makes me wonder if Zion is real or VR. I'd assume the latter but Neo's ability to stop the machines in the end was too ambiguous for me to decide. Maybe there's a matrix inside the matrix or maybe Neo has formed a connection with the machines that carries into the "real" world.

As for control, the Oracle led Neo to the architect. Whether she was simply part of the Architects grand scheme or she had the hope that Neo would finally break the chain (and stop the Matrix 7.0 from being made) is as of yet unclear. As for the architect's identity, it was implied he was the master programmer, which would mean is either a program or an actual machine.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

CC, good point about Hammond being the previous One but then he would have known Zion was doomed. The choice in the Source room was akin to the pill choice in the first movie. That, coupled with the lecture on cause and effect leads me to think that there is a convoluted path that requires a series of unthinkable (human?) decisions that leads to a fatal vulnerability within the grand program (a bit like the exhaust vent on the Death Star....). In essence, the machines are still trying to learn about the essence of the human spirit and have to risk all (even if its a very small risk) to achieve the perfect matrix. We know that the first matrix was a failure (too perfect) but have versions 2-6 since been identical or have they evolved?

I think Neo will realise that the Zion world is as artificial as the Matrix and will start flying around in Revolutions, seeking to break out. Will the "freed" will believe him? Perhaps, the real world is not decimated. Perhaps earth is just fine "outside". Getting back to the real world is the ultimate challenge set not by the machines, but by some other entity. The machines are simply the walls. In other words, humanity has been trapped until it can overcome its dependence upon machines. Revolutions may end with a desert island....

One things for sure, the teaser didn't let on.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

re: Councillor Hammond being the previous One

Did anyone catch how many people wre sitting on the Zion Council? The architect told Neo he would have to choose a certain number of people to rebuild, 7 men and 6 women total I think it was. If that was the number of people on the council, that would be futher evidence in favour of the point.

--PB


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Actually, the number was more like 23 -- 7 men and 16 women... give or take.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

*** double post ***

Ehmax please delete.


----------



## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

How long would it take to populate a city of 250,000 people if you started from 16 women and 7 men? Quite a while, I would imagine, so I doubt anyone on the council was part of the original "23". Wouldn't there also be problems since the gene pool would be relatively shallow?

I realize that pulling people from the matrix alleviates some of these concerns, but I don't think they were pulling people quickly enough for it to make a huge difference.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Yes, lots of genetic defects with a gene pool of 23..... 

If each Zion woman gave birth to 10 kids, then after 25 years the total population (excluding the unplugged ones would be 180). Add 20 unplugs to generate a total of 200. 25 years later, there would be a population of 1200 + say 300 new unplugs = 1500. 25 years later, there would be 9000 plus say 1000 unplugs. So, 75 years out (maximal age for the councillor/original One) the Zion population is only 10,000.

This assumes the unplugs are sexually active within a year, there are no homosexuals, premature deaths, etc. Not much of a life for the women....  

To reach 250,000 in 75 years would mean that 241,000 
would have to be unplugged.

[Whoops, this scenario assumes 15 women in the initial seeding, not 16 - but that would still only generate a population of 12,000 at 75 A.D. (after destruction)]


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

mannyp did you actually count how many council members there were? I don't recall exactly but to me it seemed like their were less than 23.

At any rate, I guess we won't know anything for sure until November.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

No, I didn't count the council members. There were definitely less than 23 (there are only 3 credited actors for the roles of councillors from what I can tell).

My post was referring to PosterBoy's Q about how many people would be used for the reconstruction of Zion (he mentions 7 men and 6 women) that it was said in Reloaded that there would be 7 men and 16 women (lucky devils).









Thank god that we only have to wait until November for Revolutions...







Three days before my 30th birthday!


----------



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I don't know... I guess I'm too simple minded... Movie made no sense to me.














So much so that it just made me frustrated for not having a clue what's going on. Even you guys talking about it, I'm amazed how you got all that out of the movie. 

I need the coles notes for this thing and then maybe it will make better sense to me. Maybe it has to do with me being dyslexic. I can't remember lots of little facts and things. 

Oh well, special effects are pretty neat. CG of Reeves was not good. I think it will be a long time before a CG of a person will look believable.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*ehMax said:
I think it will be a long time before a CG of a person will look believable. 
*

Well, Square managed to pull it off in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, and they have managed to pull it off in their last 3 or 4 Final Fantasy video games too.

Of course, they usually spend about 2 years massaging the CG to make it look so fantastic, and that is a little beyond the patience of Hollywood these days.

--PB


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

It is funny how _The Last Flight of the Osiris_ (which was made by Squaresoft) had better CG people than _Reloaded_ itself.


----------



## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

The computer graphics in _Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within_ were great, but I'm not sure I'd call the CG characters (if that's the right term) believable. The biggest problem seemed to be that the facial expressions didn't seem quite right; the CG characters had a lot of problems conveying subtle emotion through simple facial gestures.

Not that I'm saying the CG in FF:TSW wasn't impressive or amazing, just that there's still some work to be done until you could pass a CG character off as a real actor.


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

I agree with you jf but don't you think that Neo's CG version (when fighting agent Smith) was glaringly obvious as a CG. The facial expressions shouldn't have mattered for the fighting scene. And to Final Fantasies credit there were times when the facial expressions and movements were so good that I forgot they were CG or rather I would swear they were real. It is true though that for the most part the FF cast didn't quite look or move right.


----------



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

If you get a chance, sign up for an audible.com trial account and download the free interview of Robin Williams interviewing John Lassater, chief creative guy at Pixar. Fascinating and funny interview. They talk about realism and characters and how the better technology gets, the further the goal of truly realistic people with movement seems to get. 

We are so used to seeing human movement that the itsy bitsy tiniest inconsistency looks odd to us. Final Fantasy was close, but by no means could it fool anyone into thinking that they were real actors and real people. Neo and Harry Potter.. both films had CG versions of their characters and I could instantly tell when they were CG. They look sorta real, but it was their movement that especially gave them away. 

The most convincing CG I've seen was spiderman.. but there its really like an animated character. I don't have a good reference to what spider man flying through the streets at 300 mph looks like (except the old cartoons, and I think the movie captured it better) 

Both Neo and Harry Potter gave me this feeling like all of a sudden they were rubber people.


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

It is an uncanny feeling like seeing wax figures. I wonder if a generation who didn't grow up on computer graphics would be as critical or aware of modern day CG graphics?


----------



## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

CC,

There were times when it was obvious that Neo was a CG character (the one time that stands out in my mind was when Neo suddenly looked a lot thinner than normal). Of course, in FF:TSW the entire environment was computer-generated, while in TM:R it was a mixture of real-life and computer-generated, so I can see why TM:R might have had problems that don't exist (or are a lot easier to solve) in movies that are completely computer generated.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

For anyone who wants to dissect the message of the architect, the dialogue is on-line here.

The audience figures for weekend put the Matrix:Reloaded at #2 after Bruce Almighty (which had lousy reviews), at only about $40 million.


----------



## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

OK since I've seen the movie now I figure I can finally make a comment or two.

First of all I was also underwhelmed. I thought they should've taken a more "2001" approach and had the characters shut up a bit instead of all the verbiage.

A few randomw thoughts:

*EWOKS*: That's was my free association as soon as I saw the drum guys start up at the beginning of the cave rave. It was as bad as the ewoks in Episode VI for me. After that it was just a bad Nelly video. Conveying a culture is much more difficult than CGI effects. I know what they were trying to do but it just didn't work IMO.

*The Damn Cake* I think the boys are being given a bit too much free reign. I mean c'mon, it's like watching something dreamed up by Beavis and Butthead. Imagine the script session, " Heh heh, so then she gets this piece of chocolate cake but it's really like a program, heh heh. And then she eats it and she has an orgasm, heh heh. Yeah, that's so cool Beavis". Pathetic.

I guess it says a lot about me that I figured she'd get up and kill someone after she ate it.

GTG, got a meeting more observations later...


----------



## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

James Lileks has some interesting commentary about TM:R:

<blockquote>The Matrix may be fake, but so is lo-fat soft-serve dessert. Zion is that crappy homemade ice-cream that has chunks of salt and carob instead of proper chocolate. Everyone's commented on the infamous rave scene, in which the population of Zion crams into the Temple Of No Particular Faith and confronts their imminent death by dancing ecstatically. Big huge slo-mo close-up of feet squishing in the mud. All of a sudden I was channeling my inner Agent Smith. "I can't stand the smell", he said of the Matrix. Buddy, if you thought an average air-conditioned office was bad, try 3 AM in a huge nightclub packed with a quarter-million sweaty people who live on beans.</blockquote>

...

<blockquote> I knew I was disengaged from the movie when the Oracle told Neo to find "the keymaker," and I thought of Harold Ramis joining Sigourney Weaver to bring about the rule of Zuul. Come to think of it, the movie needed a big dose of Ghostbusting. Not in the gentle wisecracking Bill Murray sense. It needed plagues, ghosts, apparitions, giant Sta-Puft Marshmallow Men stalking down the streets in Matrixland. If Neo and his crew wanted to defeat the machines, why not play with the heads of everyone in the Matrix? Get inside the program. HACK IT. Use your [email protected] [email protected] skilz and give everyone a reason to disbelieve reality. But from what we see Neo et al have spent the last four years doing nothing but assembling a top-notch team of Scowling Operatives whose day jobs consist of crafting really cool sunglasses. Because, you know, you really need sunglasses on a planet with no sunlight.</blockquote>


----------



## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

... ooh the Sta-Puft Marshmallow man, I wish I'd thought of that. 

Anyway ... *back to the Ewoks* ... after watching the cave rave I had a terrible premonition that, at the end of Matrix Revolutions we're going to see a ghostly trio (Neo, Agent Smith and the Oracle) smiling and waving to the Zion hordes as they bump and grind to the Ewok drummers, please someone, tell me it won't be like that.

*Back to the annoying piece of cake ...* at first I was terribly irritated by the guy with the horrible French accent (I should add hastily that this was more than made up for by the presence of Monica Belucci in a transparent rubber dress ... what I'm really wondering it how you make rubber transparent? but I digress). Anyway, I then realized that (in this situation at least) the brothers have an out. You see, the guy (program, whatever) has clearly made the _choice_ to have his Matrix persona affect an 'orrible French accent and it is therefore not the brother's fault that they cast a guy who could not pull off a decent French accent. Am I making sense here ...? Probably not, but I think that's the point.

*Speaking of choice ...* if the Architect was so damn smart and what he really wanted Neo to do was walk through the right door, restarting the Matirix and Zion, why didn't he just fake him out and lie. "Yes Neo, the door to the right leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species." End of problem.

... oh look at the time, another meeting. GTG.

-edit- misspelled Matrix


----------



## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

_...they cast a guy who could not pull off a decent French accent._

For what it's worth, the actor who played Merovinghan is French (which makes the bad accent even more amusing).


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

[Architect switching doors] But that would be cheating..... And programs can't cheat. Except for Agent Smith(s).

I thought the choccie cake was a much better diversion than the Zion Circus (where was the Glam Rock section?). I mean, eee was zupposed to bei faux Fwench, wozhinaat? If you wear a faux Fwench "enterfarce", wooden you ave a liddle beet of fern at the expense of zee laydees? Eez zis not the raison zat Les Francais ave not won a war since Napoleon met Josephine. Mak lurve, not war. Allons-y.

In the Revolutions teaser, there is another apparent show-down with the Smiths (in the rain). Hmmm.... Gene Kelly comes to mind.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

The whole point of the merovingian (sp?) was that he was a Pretentious, and trying to sound french. I thought it worked quite well.

You don't make rubber dress see through. Latex however, is a different story.  

--PB


----------



## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

> at the end of Matrix Revolutions we're going to see a ghostly trio (Neo, Agent Smith and the Oracle) smiling and waving to the Zion hordes as they bump and grind to the Ewok drummers


I really don't think it's going to be like that.  

I had no idea that was not a real French accent.  

Hopefully, they will come out with some kind of SimMatrix or SimZion game. Then we can all be the merovingian, (especially used to be jwoodget), speaking french and feeding magic potions to people.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I think the Merovingian was doing what the character himself would do: a british person who loves the French language, trying to speak the language or try to use the proper phonics (phonetcs?)... or at least that's what I thought since he mentions that "of all the languages I've assimilated, French is my most favorite..."

...or something along those lines.


----------



## levarg (Jan 23, 2003)

I want to take my kids to see the MATRIX, I heard in the U.S. they classified this movie as a 'R' rating. Would you say that it's too violent for 8, 9, and 13 years old??


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Check out the finalized trailer on the official website. It is cartoon violence. Almost no blood and any potentially nasty bits are actually off-screen. The sex scene is pretty lame/limp too (androidal actually). They might find some parts quite boring though as its over 2 hours long. My 15 year old son thought it was amazing of course.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the US rated this "Restricted" yet US culture is the most violent of the western world?


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Talking of the Matrix, I found an mpeg movie of the teaser for Revolutions but it won't play in QT6 Pro (or any of the other common players - Real, WMP, 3ivx). Is there an mpeg2 player for Mac OS X or do you have to buy the QT MPEG2 decoder ($30)?


----------



## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

Well if you read my convoluted reasoning about the Merovinghan, I was actually complimenting his ability to portray a French pr*ck. To tell you the truth, he kind of grew on me as the scene developed (mmmm, latex).

There is still no excuse for the cake/orgasm, however. That was lame lame lame! 

Turning to the CGI, I think that it was badly overhyped and I won't rehash the points that other have made. *My primary complaint about CG is not so much how it looks but how it moves.*

It seems like the graphics guys are so wrapped up in the quality of the frame by frame images that they don't pay enough attention to how the figures move. No one seems to care about physics.

Look at that scene in the first Harry Potter where Neville crashes his broom and drops from the flag pole to the ground. The feeling of acceleration is all wrong, it's too fast. Much of what was wrong with the overhyped "Burly Brawl" can be explained by a lack of attention to realistic physics IMO. 

In contrast I thought the slo-mo scene before Neo "takes off" was pretty good, he hyper flexes his legs and the ripple in the "ground" adds to the "realism" of the effect.

Same thing affects all the wire fighting stuff as well. The acceleration/decceleration in the leaps between the staircases in the Merovinghan's lair are too slow.

What Jeff Gaeta and ESC et al. really needs is someone on the inside to speak up when the emperor has no clothes and tell them to go back and fix it in post-production.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I agree with Cat... to expand on my theory on a contributing factor on the unrealistic nature of some of the CG is in due with the fact that the animators lack chaos.

By this I mean the movement of objects such as clothing, hair, and such is too smooth or "romantic". It's either too perfect, or lacks the real-world dynamics of how things interact and interfere with each other.

Example being the scene when Neo "spins" vertically over agent(s) Smith in a floating pirhouette [sic?]. The cloth fans out way to smoothly. It defies the dynamics of the real fabric worn by Neo. (Keanu)

These chaotic-less ideas are very evident in Episode 1 & 2 as well with their digital counterparts.

Not only do they need to "dirty" up the imagery, but the motion too. As good as Neo is, his digital counterpart is excessively agile -- moving smoother.

Micro-animating features of a character or object can bring them a higher level of realism. The feature from the EP2 DVD that talks about the use of digital stuntment reminds me of how the smalls things help build the overall picture. The scene with Obi Wan vs. Jango when Rob Coleman (animation director) notices an Obi Wan reaching for his lightsaber with the force is "wrangled" by Jango's tether dart. There is a brief moment when digital Obi Wan's head looks at the lightsaber as it passes by him as he is pulled away. Minor things that convey the very nature of reality -- either of an organic or inorganic nature.


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

They attemped such realism in Final Fantasy: Spirits Within. The main character has over 1000 separate strands of hair that move all on their own. The only problem is the amount of processor speed that such "realism" takes. I agree with what you're saying about more "chaos" or non-linear/non-uniform movement.

I think if they could have shot more of Keanu's fight scene with Agent Smith by using wires and stunt men it would have made it look more realistic.


----------



## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

Did anyone notice that the woman who had the "orgasm" cake was the "Woman in Red" that Mouse made for the simulations? He even had a "pullout" page of her before his death scene in Matrix 1.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Only somebody who made a similar "pull out" would have noticed that Strongblade!









At least this time she got to move her lips (off camera).


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Uh, I don't think it was supposed to be the same woman. Aside from the actresses being different (Tory Mussett played the special desert girl / Fiona Johnson played the lady in red accoring to www.IMDB.com) it wouldn't make sense for Mouse's creation to be released into the Matrix.

As an aside, anyone notice that the restaurant was called "Le Vrai"? My french is non-existant, but www.freetranslation.com translates it to "The True One".


----------



## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

Good point about "chaos" Manny. Our perception of what looks "realistic" is the summation of many factors. If you look at that Harry Potter scene I mentioned previously you'll also notice that the falling figure seems to become quite "gray" for lack of a better word, it lacks detail in addition moving in a way that doens't jibe with our intuitive understanding of gravity. The same thing happens during the Burly Brawl to Neo's cardinal-esque robes. Oddly I didn't seem to notice as many problems with all the Smith's.

Anyway, *I'm finally at peace with the fact that Reloaded sucked*. I can say it now without wincing. I really really didn't want it to suck and that's why it took me so long to "pull the wool from in front of my eyes".









Before the original Matrix I was convinced that Keanu was one of the worst actors alive and I was completely blown away by his performance. Unfortunately we they wrote the currnet one in such a way that some of his weaknesses are highlighted. Vis the climax (no, not the cake  ) where Keanu utters the imortal words,

*"Trinity, I can't let you go, I love you _to_ _damn_ _much!"* Ugh, that one hurt even in the theatre. Compare the reciprocal scene with Trinity in the first Matirx and the difference in acting chops really jumps out at you. (and don't get me started on the virtual CPR)

Someone else mentioned the soundtrack and I have to completely agree there too. One of the things that distracted me during the Burly Brawl was that odious, generic 70's/80's-sounding music. Made me think of Emergency or Adam 12 (perhaps it foreshadows the (good) joke that pops up later).

Even the electronica in the rest of the movie sounds like it fell off the cutting edge a few years ago and just distracted me while I was watching.

So the big question in my mind is, *How far into post-production on Revolutions are they? Can they save it or is it already too late*

OK that was two questions, but I think of them as equally big







.


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

I disagree that Reloaded "sucked." I enjoyed the Reloaded - although I agree if you were expecting something similar or as surprising as the first you'd be highly disappointed.

As for Keanu, I heard he starred in a Shakespeare play in Saskatchewan once and I can only imagine his acting was poor. He played the confused guy very well in the first Matrix but now that he has to be an action hero perhaps he falls a little flat. Luckily there are a lot of special effects and better actors around him to make up for it.

I wonder what people expected from a Hollywood blockbuster? It was entertaining; it was eye-candy. And it had an interesting premise. Nevertheless, all Hollywood blockbusters fall into dominant norms and play into audience expectations to varying degrees. Maybe I'm cynical but there's little to nothing innovative that comes out of mainstream Hollywood. The first Matrix was engaging and intriguing but it too ultimately ended by reinforcing dominant ideologies and giving the middle class North American audience what they apparently wanted. Reloaded was similarly upsetting and predictable as the second installment of a trilogy.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*jfpoole posted a part of James Lieks commentary:

I knew I was disengaged from the movie when the Oracle told Neo to find "the keymaker," and I thought of Harold Ramis joining Sigourney Weaver to bring about the rule of Zuul.*

Try as I might, I cannot resist the urge to nerd out and mentoin that Rick Moranis was the keymaster, and Sigourney Weaver was Zuul, the GateKeeper, and their joining was to bring about the rule of Gozer, the Destructor.

No one has any idea how much of a geek I really am.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Matrix Jabber.

--PB

[ May 30, 2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: PosterBoy ]


----------



## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

Cynical Critic commented...


> *Maybe I'm cynical but...*


You? CYNICAL? Naw... I would never have guessed...  

Hee hee.


----------



## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

PosterBoy rambled:


> *jfpoole posted a part of James Lieks commentary:
> 
> I knew I was disengaged from the movie when the Oracle told Neo to find "the keymaker," and I thought of Harold Ramis joining Sigourney Weaver to bring about the rule of Zuul.
> 
> ...


Excuse me, but...



> "Your girlfriend lives in the corner penthouse of spook central"
> 
> "She's not my girlfriend. I like her because she sleeps above the covers. Four FEET above the covers... She barks, she drools..."





> "Okay, good safety tip Egon... Never cross the streams..."





> "Ray... what did you do..?"





> "Who are you supposed to be? Some kind of cosmonaught?"
> 
> "Naw, exterminators. Someone saw a cockroach up on twelve."
> 
> ...


There. No one OUTGEEKS me when it comes to Ghostbusters... NO ONE!


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

While I am sure you do out geek me in terms of ghostbusters, you can sleep soundly knowing I am sure to out geek you in areas such as Star Trek, Babylon 5, and numberous other sci fi shows/movies and etc.

--PB


----------



## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

Ah Strongblade, those quotes take me back. I loved that movie! Watched it all the time, the cartoon too.

I especially like the brief yet incredibly humorous interaction between "pencil neck" and Bill Murray's character, who's name escapes me. I guess I have to watch that movie again.


----------



## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

> I disagree that Reloaded "sucked." I enjoyed the Reloaded - although I agree if you were expecting something similar or as surprising as the first you'd be highly disappointed.


[tongue firmly in cheek] Alas the precise definition of "sucked" is something that remains elusive despite terabytes of internet-based debate. Not wanting to open that can of worms yet again I will agree to equate "highly disappointed" within the context of my lofty expectations with "sucked". 



> As for Keanu, I heard he starred in a Shakespeare play in Saskatchewan once and I can only imagine his acting was poor. He played the confused guy very well in the first Matrix but now that he has to be an action hero perhaps he falls a little flat. Luckily there are a lot of special effects and better actors around him to make up for it.


Actually prior to that he also appeared in Kenneth Branagh's screen adaptation of Much Ado About Nothing and I think that it is safe to sumarize the response of audiences to his performance as "he sucked" although again I imagine that many were also (perhaps synonymously) "highly disappointed".



> I wonder what people expected from a Hollywood blockbuster? It was entertaining; it was eye-candy. And it had an interesting premise. Nevertheless, all Hollywood blockbusters fall into dominant norms and play into audience expectations to varying degrees. Maybe I'm cynical but there's little to nothing innovative that comes out of mainstream Hollywood. The first Matrix was engaging and intriguing but it too ultimately ended by reinforcing dominant ideologies and giving the middle class North American audience what they apparently wanted. Reloaded was similarly upsetting and predictable as the second installment of a trilogy.


As a card carrying member of the _bourgeoisie_ my firm opinion remains that, although I may have been ideologically gratified after seeing both movies, the second one sucked and the first one didn't. [/tongue out]


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Alesh, Bill Murray's character was (is) Dr. Peter Venkman, and "Pencil Neck" would be Walter Peck of the EPA.

--PB


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

mycatsnameis: sounds like you need to see "Finding Nemo" where your faith in goodnees and light (well reflected light) can be merged with fatherhood and a splash of Apple connectivity too. The Globe gave it ***1/2 and noted that it was remarkaqbly lacking in Disney sentimentality. Sounds like a winner. Good job Nemo wasn't an Atlantic Codfish or it would've been a long movie.


----------



## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

No kidding, apparently they'd only have found buckets of shrimp and harbour seals







.

There was a four star review for Finding Nemo in the Metro (not sure who they outsource that job to though) but Roger Ebert also gave it four stars and that's usually good enough for me.

I hear that there's abunch of carnivores turned vegetarians in the movie, you wouldn't think that Steve had a hand in that would ya?


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

The new veggies are sharks who drag their scared witless ex-prey into a 12 step psycho-analysis session. The animation is for kids, the humour for adults. A winning combination.....


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Don't tell me someone actually snuck some real creativity in to Eisner's "family values" dreck that passes for Disney fare these days.
Oh yeah.....Jobs was involved







- anyone see if there was a Eisner look alike amongst the more villainous sea denizens?? Wouldn't put it past Stevie...he and Eisner hardly see eye to eye.
I remember Disney was caught by surprise by the Little Mermaid success - never releasing enough copies to meet demand and surprised by the success of the film and the score.
From the actor that played Ariel
""Of course it takes 2 1/2 years, 'cause ours was the last hand-painted, hand-drawn, full length feature for Disney studios. There will never be another one. There are millions and millions of bubbles in this movie, and they're all hand-drawn. It's unbelievable. Now they do it with computers and stuff. Ours was the last of the dying breed, unfortunately. We'll never see that again.""  

I admit that Pixar has done a wonderful job on "animating" in 3D space but there is something in hand drawn cells that is magical.
Anyway looking forward to Nemo.  

Hmm let's see..
Eisner pisses off Katzenberg who then leaves to help found Dreamworks, produces "Shrek" which
a) is a big hit that Disney has lacked recently
b) "shreds"..pardon the pun....most the traditional Disney images with hilarious satirical "vignettes"

Eisner is now trying to "sneak in" additional Pixar films by claiming sequels don't count in the five film agreement with Disney. So now he's pissed off Jobs and by extension Pixar the one remaining bright light in Disney's creative malaise.

Can we say "time for new management" at the Mouse House"!


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

My pet peeve is obviously with the word "sucks." It means little and is used frequently. It just seems silly and meaningless to me. Nothing personal; I'd just prefer better word choice.







Oh no the English graduate part of me is sneaking out. . . stop it . . . aaaaahhhhh 

I guess my Grade 9 English teacher's influence has rubbed off on me.

As for Nemo, it sounds like it might be good like Shrek. Anyone know anything about Shrek 2, which is supposed to be in the works?


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Shrek 2 is going to tell the story of Shrek and Fiona going on their honey moon to see Fiona's parents. Hilarity will ensue due to the fact that Fiona's parents don't know she is an ogre.

Fun!

That is what I read anyway.

--PB


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

Will Eddie Murphy be reappearing as the talking donkey in Shrek 2?


----------



## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

PosterBoy bragged:



> *While I am sure you do out geek me in terms of ghostbusters, you can sleep soundly knowing I am sure to out geek you in areas such as Star Trek, Babylon 5, and numberous other sci fi shows/movies and etc.*


I wouldn't count on it, PosterBoy.

By the way, "How many fingers am I holding up?" (Star Trek III)


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*StrongBlade asked:
"How many fingers am I holding up?" *

"That's not very damn funny."

Interestingly enough, ST3 is the only one I have only seen once, and the only one I haven't seen recently. Wierd.

Perhaps we should stop this geek competition before it gets out of hand?

--PB


----------



## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

Posterboy suggested:



> *Perhaps we should stop this geek competition before it gets out of hand?*


"What's the matter Colonel Sanders? CHICKEN?!??!"

heh

(name the movie)

But on a serious note, i think it would make an excellent thread. I shall start it! For I am the KING OF MOVIE and TV QUOTES.

Or at least a Prince... Baron at least.


----------



## dibenga (Oct 30, 2001)

I see your shwartz is as big as mine!

SPACEBALLS!!


Gimmie PAW!!


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

That was an easy movie quote to identify. How about something more obscure?

Nothing springs to mind at present but I'm sure someone here can think one up.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Oi. What have I started?

--PB


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

BTW the collection "Animatrix" is PPV a collection of shorts the chronicle the story behind the Matrix...all in anime....hence the name aniMatrix. I'll let you know - I like some anime.
Princess Monoke was a terrific story and very interesting in the blurring of villain/hero roles.
I hear the current one from the same group is terrific too.
This is a cell from Mononoke - worth while









••••••• 1/2 hour later

Oh my Aminatrix is BETTER than the Matrix....this is what anime SHOULD be
This cell does NOT do it justice.

  








From Final Flight of Osiris
wow









more here
http://www.dvdrama.com/news.php?6446

[ June 07, 2003, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: macdoc ]


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

The Animatrix is quite good, well worth the 20$ purchase price.

As to what "anime should be", check out some of the tv series before passing judgment. Cowboy Bebop and Trigun spring to mind.

There is also a Cowboy Bebop movie, but it is better if you have seen the show. Also, the Tv series are all better watched in Japanese with English subtitles. Most North American voice over actors don't seem to be able to emote as well with their voices.

--PB


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"better watched in Japanese with English subtitles." 
Indeed! I find very few dubs that work well. Crouching Tiger in particular is far far better without the dub.

Good to see the migration of anime to the North American market.
Now if the US would import the attitude towards lawyers and war that currently prevails the world would be a better place.  

I'll check those out PB - thanks


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Just FYI,

Trigun and Cowboy Bebop are both 26 1/2 hour episodes long, Trigun comes on 8 DVDs (if you can find them)(6 DVDs in the Hong Kong Ripoff version) and Cowboy Bebop on 6.

Cowboy Bebop is by far the more popular of the two, and will be easier to find.

The big deal about Anime is that here in North America we make animated movies, in Japan they make movies that happen to be animated. There is a line that never gets crossed in North American animation, certain subject matter that almost never gets touched on. Not so with Anime.

Also, if you liked Princess Mononoke, check out Spirited Away (which again is better if you can find the Japanese with subtitles version to watch.

Also: Akira. The first Anime movie to really go mainstream in North America, and probably the most popular. For a lot of people, if you say Anime, they think Akira, so go check it out.

--PB


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Also, if you get a chance, check out Ghost in the Shell...  

I highly recommend it!


----------



## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

Spirited Away is quite good. A very nice story. I have both Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away. Spirited Away is the #1 box office hit in Japan of all time, in second is Princess Mononoke... I believe in third is that oh so horrible movie Titanic.... oh well. A very good show is The Vision of Escaflowne which YTV used to air. The movie Escaflowne: A Girl in Gaea is also very good. I saw that one at an anime festival in Waterloo. Ghost in the Shell, as mentioned is VERY cool. Especially the whole idea of a society where our brains are "wired". Macross Plus... very awesome. Think animated Top Gun. Thats all I can think of for now...


As to the Animatrix... well... aside from The Second Renaisance (which was awesome, the second part wasn't that good though), The Final Flight of the Osiris (for the eye candy) and maybe Beyond (for the neat idea) it was pretty lame.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ghost in the Shell was very good - I haven't seen Spirited but my daughter has and she liked it even better than Mononoke.
Her desktop is rotating anime pics some of which she has customized herself in PS,









I didn't get to the end of Animatrix and I agree it was uneven but Phoemix was worth the late night alone - THAT's the direction I'd like to see in a feature film.
Final Fantasy was generally lame although some parts worked and the facials were good on some of the characters - the older Dr. in particular, apparently they actually cut back on the realism on the characters. I found the pacing too sluggish and dreamlike - that's what I liked in Phoenix was the pace, the detail remained but the pace was wonderful.  
Still some of the other shorts were marginal.

It certaily fleshed out Matrix tho' - just makes me think they got too involved in the fight scenes and missed the BIG story.  

What I'd like to see is the technology and detail of the Matrix on the scale of Independence day.
Some of the shorts gave that scale.

Sort of a combination of the Terminator background history and the Matrix background history put into feature length anime on the same style as Phoenix.


----------



## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

Phoenix? You mean Flight of the Osiris?


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yes sorry


----------



## däycüs mäximüs (Nov 30, 2002)

has anyone catched the last one in the animatrix, "matriculated?" it was directed by the same guy who did aeon flux, peter chung. really good. makes you think, much more than the others in the set.


----------



## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

Anyone want to comment on whether Spirited Away is suitable for young kids (say 5 and up)? Any scenes that might be considered objectionable?


----------



## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

I can vouch for Trigun being an Awesome series, and Cowboy Bebop was also quite good.

And watching Japanese anime with subtitles is immeasurably better then watching the dubbed versions, where the entire dialogues have been changed. I know many conversions of Japanese to American are horrible, for instance in my brother's favorite card game Yu-Gi Oh, theres one card called Cyber Stein in the American version, but is real name in Japanese was Devil Franken, which one sounds cooler? The Japanese of course.

mcni - Its rated PG and is supported by Disney, so it should be okay for those over 5, but having not watched it yet, I'm not totally sure.


----------



## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

Anime... Such an interesting mixed bag of stuff.

Indeed, subtitled is usually alot better than the dubbed. There are a few exception, such as Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away, where there was great effort taken in the dubbed version.

Cowboy Bebop is indeed a great Anime series. I have the limited edition boxed set and I can honestly say that it was one of the better anime series of all time.

I haven't seen the movie, which actually takes place technically mid-way through the series (there is a reason for this, of course, but I won't spoil it) but I have heard good things about it.

Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away are superb examples. 

Ghost In The Shell is pretty good, although I understand the Manga is better, but it's mainly due to the fact that GitS has a limited run time, being a movie, whereas the Manga can delve deeper because it is a series of manga issues with no set limit.

Being probably more old-school anime than most, some older ones that are worth the viewing are:

Appleseed
Black Magic M-66
GunBuster
BubbleGum Crisis (original, not 2040)
Riding Bean

Note that none of these are really "family viewing" level, as some have adult elements and themes and often quick scenes of "fan service".

Another one I get a real kick out of, mainly because of the absurdity is Golden Boy. A six-part (available on 2 DVDs) series that is incredibly funny and silly.

I also picked up Animatrix this weekend and watched all nine parts. Overall, very good stuff. I loved the work done on Flight of the Osiris. Even if it was 50% eye-candy.

Interesting ideas and some neat extra stuff, such as references made in Reloaded regarding both the Osiris and "Kid's Story". As well, adds some excellent background stuff for the Matrix series in and of itself.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I loved the Ghost in the Shell manga... it was a long-running series created by Masamune Shirow, who also created Appleseed and Black Magic M-66, and Intron Depot.
http://www.asgard.gen.nz/anime/shirow/complete.html 

The GITS movie is barely a tip of the iceberg. Get the softcover compilation from Darkhorse (slightly diluted for American audiences due to some of the sexual situations). You can tell the movie was loosely based on the GITS manga series. GITS 2 is/has been released and should be good.

I also have the entire Appleseed collection as well as Dominion (Tank Police).









Akira, Vampire Hunter D, Appleseed, Crying Freeman and Robotech were really my first introduction into Manga.

(I LOVE RIDING BEAN!!!














)


----------



## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

mycatsnameis: I would think Spirited Away is suitable for such ages. There is one scene where a dragon is bleeding quite profusely, and another where a monster is puking some nasty vile out... it's pretty disgusting but I think it should be ok.


----------



## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

Speaking of Ghost in the Shell, there is a new Ghost in the Shell series which is still running in Japan. I have managed to watch the first six episodes, and it is quite cool.


----------



## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

Anyone here seen Chobits? 

It's a sort of futuristic romantic comedy, which is a genre I usually avoid but I enjoyed the series. The basic premise that that Persocons, which are synthetic people, are everywhere in society and they mainly serve as tools and workers. But the main character starts falling in love with one that he finds mysteriously tossed aside in a dumpster.


----------

