# Crips Gang Co-Founder Executed in Calif.



## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

At first I hoped for clemency, due to Stanley "Tookie" Williams efforts to turn young people against gangs, and gang violence. Then I heard a description of the crimes he was sentenced for, and it got a lot more difficult for me to come to terms with how I felt. It doesn't much matter about this particular case, he's gone, but here's a link that offers an interesting perspective on the death penalty, and perhaps on forgiveness too...

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1395059

Will we ever evolve enough to figure this out? I struggle because I can see both sides, yet I doubt that taking a life can ever be justified despite the circumstances.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

This is really a tricky one: as a member of Amnesty I cannot condone the death penalty under any circumstances and, No, killing him won't do anything either for the victims or their families.

The interesting angle on this one is that as a gang leader, life was cheap and nobody would have batted an eyelid if he had been gunned down at the time of arrest (I don't know the details).

So at a primal level I'm happy that the guy is dead: he did not respect many lives, his life will not be respected. At a social level, I think that opposition to the death penalty cannot suffer exceptions, except perhaps when someone *asks* to be executed. There have been - and there continues to be - so many wrong state killings. Saving Williams would have been right as a matter of principle, even if he did not deserve it.

Finally two thoughts:

- Redemption is not the same as expiation. The fact that he wrote children's books against gang violence is not an excuse against capital punishment. If you have a twisted logic, you can argue that Williams' execution was a reinforment of his warning to children...

- The ABC journalist's account is harrowing and so it should be: premeditated state murder is hard to watch. Again, our gilt on that issue should not form part of the debate regarding the validity of capital punishment.


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## JPL (Jan 21, 2005)

Indeed, this is one of the most difficult questions facing western democracies. In open societies there will always be those who take extreme measures to resolve their problems and take advantage of a judicial system designed to be weighted in favor of the transgressor.

It appears that as our legislation becomes softer the problems increase. We are faced with some daunting social and economic problems. On the one hand rehabilitation is best for the individual and society, but is rehabilitation realistically achievable and on the other hand at what cost do we suffer the attempt. 

Personally, I am in favor of the death penalty, in some situations, and I am ante the young offenders act. I know this sounds harsh and is contrary to "political correctness", but I am disheartened by the disrespect and violence shown by many our youth and I believe this contributes to their behavior as adults.

I offer no stats to substantiate my claim, it's simply my feeling as I read the papers, watch the news and interact with the kids at scouts and in the school, where I volunteered.

OK flame away


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I don't support the death penalty, even for people like Bernardo and Homolka (nor do I support cable TV and parties for that kind of person). 

For a system that does have the death penalty, Williams seemed like a prime candidate from the little I know.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Murder is Murder - be it state sanctioned or not.

So, how does it feel knowing that Tookie was nominated 5 times for the Nobel Peace Price? 4 times for the Nobel Literature Prize? 

The death penalty is a revenge. Revenge is something you want to do when you feel powerless. When you have all the power and kill someone, like the state is doing, then it becomes something else....


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> Murder is Murder - be it state sanctioned or not.
> 
> So, how does it feel knowing that Tookie was nominated 5 times for the Nobel Peace Price? 4 times for the Nobel Literature Prize?
> 
> The death penalty is a revenge. Revenge is something you want to do when you feel powerless. When you have all the power and kill someone, like the state is doing, then it becomes something else....


How does it feel knowing that a former gang member who founded one of the world's most infamous gangs? A man who has killed without remorse or taking responsibilities for his own actions? That he had shot another man twice in the back as well as a husband, wife and their daughter with a shotgun while robbing their store...

How does it feel to know that while he was incarcerated, he spent considerable time (about 6 years) in solitary confinement due to assault on several guards and other inmates?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> How does it feel knowing that a former gang member who founded one of the world's most infamous gangs? A man who has killed without remorse or taking responsibilities for his own actions? That he had shot another man twice in the back as well as a husband, wife and their daughter with a shotgun while robbing their store...
> 
> How does it feel to know that while he was incarcerated, he spent considerable time (about 6 years) in solitary confinement due to assault on several guards and other inmates?


I have no problem with what he did in prison or the fact that he co-founded the Crips. When it comes to the murders he has been accused of, he has maintained his innocence. 

State sponsored murder is the lowest form of revenge approved by blood thirsty often ignorant population.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Glad the SOB got what was coming to him. A tougher stand should be taken on all forms of crime from top to bottom. Its easy to see why kids get into crime. Steal a car when you are 15 and get a slap on the wrist. Start punishing the first time offenders and discourage them from becoming 2nd time offenders. 

As far as this piece of $hit goes, enjoy your lifetime term in hell punk!


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

andreww said:


> As far as this piece of $hit goes, enjoy your lifetime term in hell punk!


And I'm sure you have read his autobiography? 
Have you read about how he has worked towards his redemption? 
Or have you just read a few headlines and made the association "black + gang member = bad"?

I'm glad you seem to believe in Hell - the Vatican has this to say:


> At the Vatican, Pope Benedict XVI's top official for justice matters denounced the death penalty for going against redemption and human dignity.
> 
> "We know the death penalty doesn't resolve anything," Cardinal Renato Martino told Associated Press Television News.
> 
> ...


http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/13/williams.execution.ap/


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> And I'm sure you have read his autobiography?
> Have you read about how he has worked towards his redemption?
> Or have you just read a few headlines and made the association "black + gang member = bad"?
> 
> ...


Too little too late. Its amazing how many death row inmates miraculously turn their lives around. You let that prick walk today and somebody is a victim by friday.

As far as me basing this on him being black, I didn't know that he was, but surprise surprise. Ain't that a shock!


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

andreww said:


> As far as me basing this on him being black, I didn't know that he was, but surprise surprise. Ain't that a shock!


Are you drunk?


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

ArtistSeries you come off sounding like you personally knew the guy.

And enough with dropping the race card at the drop of a hat. Geez!

Look the guy was no freaking angel. He did some bad things when he was younger and he wanted to save his skin by becoming an official spokesperson against gangs. I congratulate him for writing and speaking towards the youth but in the end you can't wipe away all the past $h1t and come out smelling like a rose. His death will send a powerful message to young children hopefully making them think before they act in an unlawful way.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

andreww said:


> You let that prick walk today and somebody is a victim by friday.


This was never a case of letting him walk - having a death sentence commuted is not letting him walk. Not that subtlety is your strong point.




andreww said:


> As far as me basing this on him being black, I didn't know that he was, but surprise surprise. Ain't that a shock!


That comment says so much.....


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Bajan said:


> ArtistSeries you come off sounding like you personally knew the guy.
> 
> And enough with dropping the race card at the drop of a hat. Geez!
> 
> Look the guy was no freaking angel. He did some bad things when he was younger and he wanted to save his skin by becoming an official spokesperson against gangs. I congratulate him for writing and speaking towards the youth but in the end you can't wipe away all the past $h1t and come out smelling like a rose. His death will send a powerful message to young children hopefully making them think before they act in an unlawful way.


deterrent? more like revenge



> The death penalty is not a deterrent; those who are against the death penalty claim that recent studies in the US do not support the view that capital punishment acts as a deterrent. [12]. It is also argued that anyone who would be deterred by the death penalty would already have been deterred by life in prison, and people that are not deterred by that would not be stopped by any punishment. This argument is typically supported by claims that those states that have implemented the death penalty recently have not had a reduction of violent crime. A stronger variant of this argument suggests that criminals who believe they will face the death penalty are more likely to use violence or murder to avoid capture, and that therefore the death penalty might theoretically even increase the rate of violent crime.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment

education, jobs and having a good life would be the best (and I argue the most cost effective) "message" to "young children"


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

miguelsanchez said:


> Are you drunk?


No, why? You don't think the majority of US inmates are of color? You don't think the majority of gang members are of color? You don't think the majority of perpetrators of weapon related crimes are of color?

Ooops, sorry, I forgot we are not allowed to keep stats on such things.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Bajan said:


> I congratulate him for writing and speaking towards the youth but in the end you can't wipe away all the past $h1t and come out smelling like a rose. His death will send a powerful message to young children hopefully making them think before they act in an unlawful way.


The death penalty has not and never will be a deterrent.


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

> deterrent? more like revenge


Ahhh...How I agree to disagree with you.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> This was never a case of letting him walk - having a death sentence commuted is not letting him walk. Not that subtlety is your strong point.


Ok lets have a show of volunteers who will donate the costs of keeping guys like this in prison for a lifetime. I choose not to contribute.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> The death penalty has not and never will be a deterrent.


Neither is going to jail in Canada.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

andreww said:


> Ok lets have a show of volunteers who will donate the costs of keeping guys like this in prison for a lifetime. I choose not to contribute.


Do you live in the US?


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

There isn't much that is. Put them in jail and make it as comfortable as possible.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Do you life in the US?


What does that have to do with it?


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

andreww said:


> Ok lets have a show of volunteers who will donate the costs of keeping guys like this in prison for a lifetime. I choose not to contribute.


If I had my choice between a few dollars of good old Toronto Hydro attached to a metal chair or hundreds of thousands of dollars of money going to keep *some* criminals warm and fed, I think that I'd choose the first.

Then again...forget the hydro, anyone got some spare rope in the garage?


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

LOL, people don't realize the pain that these people have caused the friends and families of every victim they created. Not just the ones he is charged for, but from the first car he jacked to the last guy he killed. Every single victim. I bet this guy could have easily filled a football stadium with the people who's lives were affected negatively by him.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

I take it we still haven't learned from all of the overturned convictions that this nation has had of late?


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Overturned convictions on death row are rare to say the least. And just because something is overturned, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person was innocent.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

andreww said:


> Ok lets have a show of volunteers who will donate the costs of keeping guys like this in prison for a lifetime. I choose not to contribute.


if you have a look at the costs for the state to reply to all the defence motions to migrate the sentence to life imprsonment, you might be surprised how much an actual death sentence costs.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> if you have a look at the costs for the state to reply to all the defence motions to migrate the sentence to life imprsonment, you might be surprised how much an actual death sentence costs.


Too many liberal bleeding hearts in this world. See what kind of deterrent the death penalty would become if arrest to death happened within a year instead of taking decades.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

andreww said:


> Too many liberal bleeding hearts in this world. See what kind of deterrent the death penalty would become if arrest to death happened within a year instead of taking decades.


wow - an attitude of ignorance and stupidity all rolled into one...


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> wow - an attitude of ignorance and stupidity all rolled into one...


What the??? Typical reaction of someone with no point to his argument, call the other side names. Dude, I pray that you never become a victim of crime, but I honestly believe that at some point, you, I, and many others will be. Our justice system is a f___ing joke. 

Gang violence and crime in general is spreading like wild fire and nobody gives a $hit. I don't know how old you are but I remember when toronto homicides could be counted on your own fingers. It was a shock when places like Detroit an NY had murder rates that climed above 100 in a year. Look at the states dude, were just 10 years behind them, thats all.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I am afraid that I don't think there is any forgiveness for deliberately taking a life. Death is irreversible..........so is the damage done to the families and friends of the murdered person. The fellow made the concious decision to kill someone...........no regard or respect for anyone affected............It is too late afterward to ask for forgiveness or to think.......gee, shouldn't have done that...........people need to have respect for life and to think before doing something so irreversible and damaging to so many. 

I don't believe in taking anothers life, but I don't believe that everything is forgivable either. This fellow chose his fate thru disrespect for others. I don't feel sorry for him...........maybe he was sorry and did try to repent...........but after taking anothers life it is too late for that. Too many people hurt......

So, don't really know the right or wrong here about his execution..........but very curious as to how he was nominated for noble peace prize????????????


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> Murder is Murder - be it state sanctioned or not.
> 
> So, how does it feel knowing that Tookie was nominated 5 times for the Nobel Peace Price? 4 times for the Nobel Literature Prize?


Reminds me why I think the Nobel Prize has become a crock.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

While as a Catholic I can't support the death penalty, I can certainly understand why Tookie, who never admitted or apologized for the killings, was a prime candidate.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

andreww said:


> What the??? Typical reaction of someone with no point to his argument, call the other side names. Dude, I pray that you never become a victim of crime, but I honestly believe that at some point, you, I, and many others will be. Our justice system is a f___ing joke.
> 
> Gang violence and crime in general is spreading like wild fire and nobody gives a $hit. I don't know how old you are but I remember when toronto homicides could be counted on your own fingers. It was a shock when places like Detroit an NY had murder rates that climed above 100 in a year. Look at the states dude, were just 10 years behind them, thats all.



what if you are the friend/family member of someone that was erroneously executed or don't those people have feelings?



> In 2002, in a stunning and controversial move, Illinois governor George Ryan commuted the sentences of all the state's death row inmates, saying that conviction errors and unfair imposition make capital punishment “arbitrary and capricious.”


http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0857173.html


I never realized that Japan still had the death penalty.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

andreww said:


> Overturned convictions on death row are rare to say the least. And just because something is overturned, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person was innocent.


They are rare, because the person is dead. All of the overturned capital cases in this country of late have been people who, if we had the death penalty, would have been already dead. And if they were, of course, it's unlikely anyone would have bothered to keep pushing for proper justice.

And yes, the lack of a conviction means a person is innocent. By definition.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

quote...."Gang violence and crime in general is spreading like wild fire and nobody gives a $hit. I don't know how old you are but I remember when toronto homicides could be counted on your own fingers."
The neighbourhood I grew up in in Toronto - Jane and Finch - I wouldn't go near now........heard too much about gangs and drugs.........and too many other cities having the same problem.........where is the deterrent? Go to Jail?


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

My only complaint is they should have given him the needle over 20 years ago!!!!

I don't care if it's a deterrent or not. Why keep someone like that alive? Did he care about the lives of his victims?

I wish we had the "needle" here. As a family member of a violent crime victim I'd have NO remorse watching the creep die.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

NBiBooker said:


> While as a Catholic I can't support the death penalty, I can certainly understand why Tookie, who never admitted or apologized for the killings, was a prime candidate.


Why should he have apologized for something that he says he was innocent?




> COSBY: Why have you not expressed remorse for the four killings which you've been convicted of?
> 
> WILLIAMS: Well, because as you and I both know, conviction does not denote guilt. And I've been proclaiming my innocence for the longest. So for me to express remorse or an apology, that would, as I stated before, connote culpability, which I'm not. In fact, it would be disingenuous on my part.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10252436/


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

And the governor was a legal expert who in detail studied every case, and believed that he knew more than ever, attorney, judge, witness, and citizen that sat on the jury. Did he commute those sentences based on his own beliefs or the beliefs of the constituents?


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Cameo, they don't even spend much time in jail. They're all out on bail.


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> Why should he have apologized for something that he says he was innocent?


Please provide a detailed response as to all the evidence that you personnaly have to prove this guy was innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Bajan said:


> Please provide a detailed response as to all the evidence that you personnaly have to prove this guy was innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt.


The standard is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, not innocent.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

adagio said:


> My only complaint is they should have given him the needle over 20 years ago!!!!
> 
> I don't care if it's a deterrent or not. Why keep someone like that alive? Did he care about the lives of his victims?
> 
> I wish we had the "needle" here. As a family member of a violent crime victim I'd have NO remorse watching the creep die.


And others said similar things. I disagree, because I belief that life has value.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

He WAS proven guilty beyond shadow of a doubt.


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

RevMatt, if only every person on earth believed that every life had value then we would not even be discussing this. Unfortunatly we as a human race have not yet reached that ultimate goal.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

It's just as well the majority believe life has value. Could you please inform all the murderers and rapists that they have it all wrong?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

andreww said:


> Ok lets have a show of volunteers who will donate the costs of keeping guys like this in prison for a lifetime. I choose not to contribute.


The "debate" is about capital punishment but since you seems to have used the cost of keeping a prisoner versus the cost of capital punishment....



> "Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."


http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Why are we putting Canadian values on something that happened in a U.S. state? He was found guilty of his crimes, and exhibited violent behavior until 1993 (at least overtly... he hadn't received an infraction since then, or so I've read.) He spent six and a half years in solitary confinement for attacking guards and fellow inmates! So what... he writes a couple of children's books (that I've never heard of until now), and was nominated for a Nobel prize and that magically makes it better?

He fully understood killing was wrong, yet chose to do so. He also understood he was going to be executed for his crimes in the state of California, yet wasn't willing to take responsibility for it.

You reap what you sow.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

adagio said:


> It's just as well the majority believe life has value. Could you please inform all the murderers and rapists that they have it all wrong?


I chose to demonstrate my belief by not taking life, and by not institutionalising murder and the disrespect of life.

The discussion was quickly brought around to whether we should have executions here, MannyP.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Bajan said:


> RevMatt, if only every person on earth believed that every life had value then we would not even be discussing this. Unfortunatly we as a human race have not yet reached that ultimate goal.


Agreed. And I believe that we can't get there without a conscious effort. That effort needs to include refusing to further the culture of violence and disrespect for life by enshrining murder in the law.

Edit - I am, to be honest, frankly astonished at the opinions expressed here. I don't believe I have ever encountered such vehement expressions of hatred and vengeance around this issue, and I work in the church. I know that there are some parts of society who are still supportive of the death penalty, as there always will be. They are, blessedly, significantly the minority in this country. I just hadn't realised there were so many on this board.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

RevMatt said:


> Agreed. And I believe that we can't get there without a conscious effort. That effort needs to include refusing to further the culture of violence and disrespect for life by enshrining murder in the law.
> 
> Edit - I am, to be honest, frankly astonished at the opinions expressed here. I don't believe I have ever encountered such vehement expressions of hatred and vengeance around this issue, and I work in the church. I know that there are some parts of society who are still supportive of the death penalty, as there always will be. They are, blessedly, significantly the minority in this country. I just hadn't realised there were so many on this board.


Stop demonizing those who don't agree with your opinion. Everyone's got one, take it with a grain of salt.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

NBiBooker said:


> Stop demonizing those who don't agree with your opinion. Everyone's got one, take it with a grain of salt.


I am demonising the opinion, because I believe it to be flawed, and based on underlying behaviour that stems from fear and hatred. That the individuals are prey to their biases makes them no different from any other individuals. But I refuse to be told I cannot comment on a position I find frightening and misguided (to state it as mildly as possible).


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

RevMatt said:


> I just hadn't realised there were so many on this board.


Revmatt, take solace in that there are actually very few who support this kind of blatant revenge sentiment. Unfortunately the ones who do support this nonsense also happen to be the loudest. Thinking that capital punishment deters criminality is the same mentality that makes some think that torture will provide the truth.

Be thankful that we live in Canada, and that the likelihood of capital punishment every being reinstated here is remote.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

What kind of message do criminals get when they can do anything they want: Kill any amount of people, steal as much as they want, destroy anything and everything and only serve time in jail? We've seen how criminals live in Canada's corrections facilities... what kind of rehabilitation is that? Killers are allowed to walk freely after serving a pittance of time in jail.

Here, the RCMP are afraid of biker gangs not to mention the increasing gun-related crime in our cities... what should we do? Throw legislation at them and hope for the best? We're imposing our own moral compass on those who do not care.

If you're going to act like an animal, be prepared to be treated like an animal... you can only turn the other cheek so many times before it starts bleeding.

Or worse.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

« MannyP Design » said:


> What kind of message do criminals get when they can do anything they want: Kill any amount of people, steal as much as they want, destroy anything and everything and only serve time in jail? We've seen how criminals live in Canada's corrections facilities... what kind of rehabilitation is that? Killers are allowed to walk freely after serving a pittance of time in jail.
> 
> Here, the RCMP are afraid of biker gangs not to mention the increasing gun-related crime in our cities... what should we do? Throw legislation at them and hope for the best? We're imposing our own moral compass on those who do not care.
> 
> ...


Where do think getting bent over in the shower at Kingston and being given the big one up the exit chute as being a cakewalk? Criminals do hard time in an unimaginable environment where almost every right and freedom is taken away from them.

No one is saying anything about making prisoners lives easier or reducing their sentence... what we are saying is that Capital Punishment serves no purpose beyond exacting revenge upon an individual for their crime. It is NOT a deterrent.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Death penalty support in Canada is much stronger than many seem to assume, although I can't remember when the last poll was.

One source, for what it's worth.
http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Beej said:


> Death penalty support in Canada is much stronger than many seem to assume, although I can't remember when the last poll was.
> 
> One source, for what it's worth.
> http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php



The visceral response from a poll is not entirely shocking, however the fact that Canada has seen a reduction in the violent crime rate only goes to show that Capital Punishment is NOT required or of use as a deterrent.



> Canadian research on the deterrent effect of punishment has reached the same conclusion as the overwhelming majority of US studies: the death penalty has no special value as a deterrent when compared to other punishments. In fact, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has stated: "It is futile to base an argument for reinstatement on grounds of deterrence".


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

RevMatt said:


> I am demonising the opinion, because I believe it to be flawed, and based on underlying behaviour that stems from fear and hatred. That the individuals are prey to their biases makes them no different from any other individuals. But I refuse to be told I cannot comment on a position I find frightening and misguided (to state it as mildly as possible).


I guess that fear-mongering is the credo for many.

I found this interesting:


> Studies continue to show disparities in the imposition of capital punishment (it is most likely to be imposed if the victim was white and the defendant is black, but is least likely to be imposed if both victim and defendant are black) and to cast doubt on its bearing on future homicides, and criticism of the practice in the United States and abroad has been increasing markedly.


http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0857173.html


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

That's the quote I was going for, jonesy  

AS, interesting link. Do you, or does anyone, know anything about the organisation behind that site? I do try and not take the internet at face value, at least every now and then


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

da_jonesy said:


> The visceral response from a poll is not entirely shocking, however the fact that Canada has seen a reduction in the violent crime rate only goes to show that Capital Punishment is NOT required or of use as a deterrent.


Any stats to back that up? From what I've read from StatsCan, crime overall is on the decline, violent crimes are on the rise.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> The visceral response from a poll is not entirely shocking, however the fact that Canada has seen a reduction in the violent crime rate only goes to show that Capital Punishment is NOT required or of use as a deterrent.


The U.S. has also seen a reduction in violent crime. There are much more significant factors at play, similar to in the gun-death statistics.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

andreww said:


> Laughing my F___ing a$$ off!



Thanks to Beej for pointing out the obvious...

"Contrary to predictions by death penalty supporters, the homicide rate in Canada did not increase after abolition in 1976. In fact, the Canadian murder rate declined slightly the following year (from 2.8 per 100,000 to 2.7). Over the next 20 years the homicide rate fluctuated (between 2.2 and 2.8 per 100,000), but the general trend was clearly downwards. It reached a 30-year low in 1995 (1.98) -- the fourth consecutive year-to-year decrease and a full one-third lower than in the year before abolition. In 1998, the homicide rate dipped below 1.9 per 100,000, the lowest rate since the 1960s."


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Violent crime: Homicide rate continues downward trend
The violent crime rate has generally declined since the early 1990s after increasing throughout most of the three previous decades. Since 1993, it has fallen 11%, and in 2003, it remained virtually unchanged.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040728/d040728a.htm

Something similar happened in the U.S. data.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

da_jonesy said:


> Thanks to Beej for pointing out the obvious...
> 
> "Contrary to predictions by death penalty supporters, the homicide rate in Canada did not increase after abolition in 1976. In fact, the Canadian murder rate declined slightly the following year (from 2.8 per 100,000 to 2.7). Over the next 20 years the homicide rate fluctuated (between 2.2 and 2.8 per 100,000), but the general trend was clearly downwards. It reached a 30-year low in 1995 (1.98) -- the fourth consecutive year-to-year decrease and a full one-third lower than in the year before abolition. In 1998, the homicide rate dipped below 1.9 per 100,000, the lowest rate since the 1960s."


Where did this info come from?? Also there is a danger in using "Rates" as opposed to actual numbers. You are using population figures from an entire country and crimes from several small pockets. You can make numbers say whatever you want them to. Show me a graph of the actual number of murders in toronto over the past 25 years. My guess is you would see a mighty steep ski hill.


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

RevMatt said:


> AS, interesting link. Do you, or does anyone, know anything about the organisation behind that site? I do try and not take the internet at face value, at least every now and then


MacSpectrum liked there before me...

http://www.infoplease.com/aboutip.html


> Information Please has been providing authoritative answers to all kinds of factual questions since 1938—first as a popular radio quiz show, then starting in 1947 as an annual almanac, and since 1998 on the Internet at www.infoplease.com. Many things have changed since 1938, but not our dedication to providing reliable information, in a way that engages and entertains.
> 
> Information Please is part of Pearson Education, the largest educational publisher in the world and owner of Prentice Hall, Scott Foresman, Addison Wesley Longman, and other distinguished imprints. Pearson also owns the Financial Times and Penguin Putnam publishers.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

andreww said:


> Where did this info come from?? Also there is a danger in using "Rates" as opposed to actual numbers. You are using population figures from an entire country and crimes from several small pockets. You can make numbers say whatever you want them to. Show me a graph of the actual number of murders in toronto over the past 25 years. My guess is you would see a mighty steep ski hill.


i would guess that a similar graph showing the population increase in Toronto of the last 25 years would also show growth

with population growing, "rate" is a valid statistic


----------



## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

andreww said:


> Where did this info come from?? Also there is a danger in using "Rates" as opposed to actual numbers. You are using population figures from an entire country and crimes from several small pockets. You can make numbers say whatever you want them to. Show me a graph of the actual number of murders in toronto over the past 25 years. My guess is you would see a mighty steep ski hill.


There's a reason that rates are relevant. Show me a graph of anything from TO, whether it's murders or coffee purchases, and you will se a huge uphill slope. There are more people there, so of course the raw numbers go up. Sorry, but a graph of the actual numbers would be meaningless. And the info in question came from the Amnesty International link further up-thread.

edit - oops, missed it the first time. apologies to Mac spectrum. And thanks, AS. One would have thought I could have been smart enough to find that info on the site


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

andreww said:


> Where did this info come from?? Also there is a danger in using "Rates" as opposed to actual numbers. You are using population figures from an entire country and crimes from several small pockets. You can make numbers say whatever you want them to. Show me a graph of the actual number of murders in toronto over the past 25 years. My guess is you would see a mighty steep ski hill.



That came from the article that Beej pointed us to...

http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php

And when you balance the actual number of murders against the population growth of the GTA you see a pretty direct correlation.

Part of the problem here is the increase of media coverage on the subject. It honestly makes people feel unsafe when in fact crime rates are not increasing beyond population growth rates.

My advice to you is that it is safe to walk the streets of Toronto and turn off that TV at 6:00pm and stop reading the Toronto Sun.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

da_jonesy said:


> That came from the article that Beej pointed us to...
> 
> http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php
> 
> ...


http://www.fradical.com/Violent_crime_statistics_Canada.htm

This first chart will show that in my lifetime the violent crime rate has increase by about 500%. Thats "Rate" It does show a slight drop of over the past 10 years but a rise over the past few. I see the biggest rise in the period since the death penalty was abolished.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Two groups, both with clear, and clearly opposing, ideologies, reach opposite conclusions, and both claim the same data source. Guess it comes down to whom you trust more.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

da_jonesy said:


> That came from the article that Beej pointed us to...
> 
> http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php
> 
> ...



What? 
No more page 3?


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

andreww said:


> http://www.fradical.com/Violent_crime_statistics_Canada.htm
> 
> This first chart will show that in my lifetime the violent crime rate has increase by about 500%. Thats "Rate" It does show a slight drop of over the past 10 years but a rise over the past few. I see the biggest rise in the period since the death penalty was abolished.


What the hell is that site? 

That same page further down has an article that says...

"Murder rate lowest since '67"

I'm sorry but I contest the veracity of that information from that website. I'll take Beej's link to Amnesty International any day of the week.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

da_jonesy said:


> My advice to you is that it is safe to walk the streets of Toronto and turn off that TV at 6:00pm and stop reading the Toronto Sun.


Gee... not making any broad assumptions, there, are ya?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

« MannyP Design » said:


> Gee... not making any broad assumptions, there, are ya?


Gee, I think he was being facetious.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

My point is that no matter what side of an issue you support, you can find data that will support your case. It's not good for cities, countries, police departments, etc to report that crime is on the rise, but living in toronto you would have to be a total idiot not to realize that violent crime has skyrocketed over the past quarter century.

This debate however has nothing to do with numbers, evidence or anything else. It comes down to the fact that some people have no problem with an "eye for an eye" form of punishment. Others can't bring themselves to go beyond sweeping a problem under a rug and pretending there is no problem at all.

We have a big problem with gang related crime in this city, and its going to get worse. Really, I would be happy to be rid of the death penalty, but we have to be much harsher with first time offenders and on juvenile crime. I mean MUCH TOUGHER.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> Gee, I think he was being facetious.


D'ya think?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

da_jonesy said:


> What the hell is that site?


I was not sure if the site was a joke or not - I read a few of the "articles" and decided it was poorly written parody.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

andreww said:


> My point is that no matter what side of an issue you support, you can find data that will support your case.


Comes a time when data is conclusive - as with the death penalty.

It seems that we think that these are more violent times - a little history will show you that we may actually be in more peaceful times. 




andreww said:


> This debate however has nothing to do with numbers, evidence or anything else. It comes down to the fact that some people have no problem with an "eye for an eye" form of punishment. Others can't bring themselves to go beyond sweeping a problem under a rug and pretending there is no problem at all.


Two different conclusions inherent in faulty thinking. 
I have not heard anyone say that we should sweep a problem under the rug. 
Gang violence is on the rise in Toronto - okay what next? Different debate.




andreww said:


> I would be happy to be rid of the death penalty, but we have to be much harsher with first time offenders and on juvenile crime. I mean MUCH TOUGHER.


We don't have the death penalty in Canada.
Sweeping justice reform is another debate. Is your cry for tougher laws in the spirit of revenge or the spirit of justice and how will it be applied?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

RevMatt said:


> And I believe that we can't get there without a conscious effort. That effort needs to include refusing to further the culture of violence and disrespect for life by enshrining murder in the law.
> 
> Edit - I am, to be honest, frankly astonished at the opinions expressed here. I don't believe I have ever encountered such vehement expressions of hatred and vengeance around this issue, and I work in the church.


Thank you. Well said.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

ArtistSeries said:


> I was not sure if the site was a joke or not - I read a few of the "articles" and decided it was poorly written parody.



Thank you... I knew that I couldn't be the only who found that to be bizarre.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Violent crime rates are higher than mid-20th century. The views are looking at different timelines, and are basically from the same data source.
Since the 1990s, violent crime rates are down, since the 1960s they are up.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Its easy to dismiss data when it disagrees with your position. Regardless of the article or the website, the charts are from statistics canada.

But coming from somebody with my ignorance and stupidity its easy to see why someone with your superior intellect would pooh-pooh it.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> > Edit - I am, to be honest, frankly astonished at the opinions expressed here. I don't believe I have ever encountered such vehement expressions of hatred and vengeance around this issue, and I work in the church.
> 
> 
> Thank you. Well said.


Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but categorizing those with differing views does nothing for you nor your stance. You can talk to anyone who knows me and they will not use those two words to describe who I am as a person.


----------



## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Beej said:


> Violent crime rates are higher than mid-20th century. The views are looking at different timelines, and are basically from the same data source.
> Since the 1990s, violent crime rates are down, since the 1960s they are up.


And in the past few years there has been a rise. So a brief period in the late 90s there was a decline.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

« MannyP Design » said:


> Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but categorizing those with differing views does nothing for you nor your stance.


:clap: 
.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

andreww said:


> And in the past few years there has been a rise. So a brief period in the late 90s there was a decline.


Could be...even time won't tell (crime data is notoriously difficult to connect back to a cause-effect relationship). 

It would be interesting (in a VERY scary way) if the 1990s crime trend were a blip and the 1960-1980s trendline resumed.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

andreww said:


> And in the past few years there has been a rise. So a brief period in the late 90s there was a decline.


The sky is falling... the sky is falling!!!

_"Police reported about 309,000 violent crimes in 2001, up 7,000 from 2000. This nudged the violent crime rate up 1%, the second consecutive increase after seven years of decline from 1993 to 1999. Prior to 1993, the violent crime rate had risen each year since 1977. The 2001 violent crime rate was 6% lower than a decade ago, but 52% higher than 20 years ago.

Minor assaults account for almost two-thirds of all violent crimes each year. In 2001, the rate of minor assaults advanced 1% and was the key factor in the rise in the total violent crime rate. The more serious categories of assault - assault with a weapon and aggravated assault - increased 5%, mainly because of a 7% increase in Quebec and a 14% jump in Saskatchewan."_

The fact of the matter is that NONE of this is alarming or out of the norm. Certain NONE of this supports any position that Capital Punishment will deter any of this violence.

PS... lets see those numbers for 2003 and 2004?


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

da_jonesy said:


> The more serious categories of assault - assault with a weapon and aggravated assault - increased 5%, mainly because of a 7% increase in Quebec and a 14% jump in Saskatchewan."


An increase of over 5% over a single calendar year is not alarming to you? And this coming in the period where the crime rate was in decline??

Thats what is wrong about classifying violent crime as anything from a bar fight to murder. The numbers of the bad crimes are hidden.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

« MannyP Design » said:


> Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but categorizing those with differing views does nothing for you nor your stance. You can talk to anyone who knows me and they will not use those two words to describe who I am as a person.


Again, I am describing the position, not the individual.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

andreww said:


> An increase of over 5% over a single calendar year is not alarming to you? And this coming in the period where the crime rate was in decline??
> 
> Thats what is wrong about classifying violent crime as anything from a bar fight to murder. The numbers of the bad crimes are hidden.


Quebec and Saskatchewan are not Toronto and vice versa. I highly doubt that the idiot who pulls a knife in a bar fight in Palookaville, SK would give any thought to his deeds if Capital Punishment is in place in Canada.

Seriously, we aren't doing that bad in the grand scheme of things. I'm sorry you think that Canadian society is falling apart around you. My advice to you is to start smoking a fatty once and a while and quit watching CSI Miami every night.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Da_jonesy, Grimsby is a long way from toronto when it comes to crime. Many a weekend pass with multiple shootings and deaths. In fact its becoming more the norm than the exception. There are parts of this great city that you can no longer walk after dark, or even in the day without extreme caution.

Whatever, puff away and pretend there isn't a problem, then take a stumble through Jane and Finch or Flemingdon park.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Jane and Finch is as bad as I heard? Sounds worse all the time. It was a normal neighbourhood when I lived there - course that was 25 years ago.

I don't condone the death penalty, but there needs to be a harder stance taken than at present with serious offenders.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

da_jonesy said:


> ...Criminals do hard time in an unimaginable environment where almost every right and freedom is taken away from them.
> 
> No one is saying anything about making prisoners lives easier or reducing their sentence... what we are saying is that Capital Punishment serves no purpose beyond exacting revenge upon an individual for their crime. It is NOT a deterrent.


You've got to be joking. Every right and freedom should be taken away from them. 

As for the other, umm punishment, it's an er, lifestyle choice.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

RevMatt said:


> Again, I am describing the position, not the individual.


But that's not what you said: _I am, to be honest, frankly astonished at *the opinions expressed here*. I don't believe I have ever encountered such *vehement expressions of hatred and vengeance* around this issue..._

Emphasis mine. You're not talking about the position... you're talking about the people who have voiced (various) opinions of agreement that clemency should not have been granted and/or advocate the use of the death penalty.

And if you believe that those who oppose your views are supporting the position that is based in hatred and vengence, then you have not been listening.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

RevMatt said:


> I am demonising the opinion, because I believe it to be flawed, and based on underlying behaviour that stems from fear and hatred. That the individuals are prey to their biases makes them no different from any other individuals. But I refuse to be told I cannot comment on a position I find frightening and misguided (to state it as mildly as possible).


That's great and I'm feeling free enough to dismiss your opinion as the kind of bleeding hearted liberal condescending "I know better than you" crap.

While I don't support capital punishment, I can understand why some people support it. Particularly those victims of violent crimes or thier family members. 

Anyway, carry on since your opinion is clearly more important than any one else's.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

RevMatt said:


> Again, I am describing the position, not the individual.


Sometimes that can get quite personal though. Describing a position as, for example, stupid, can be interpreted as reflecting on the individual who voiced the position. A more striking example would be labelling a person's position as racist. That can clearly have more meaning than assuming a strict divide between a person and their position. 

Each person has their own line here. The line where they feel it is more personal than, maybe, the writer intends. Given that the labels don't add anything to the writer's argument (maybe even detract from their ideas), minimizing labels seems like a good idea. 

They'll never be eliminated, but if we make the effort to focus on ideas and not labels of others' ideas, the results could be surprising.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Thats why the crime problem will never be solved. I could do it in a matter of a few years, but it would require racial profiling, stiff prison terms for anything aggressive, deportations and anything else that I could use.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

andreww said:


> Da_jonesy, Grimsby is a long way from toronto when it comes to crime. Many a weekend pass with multiple shootings and deaths. In fact its becoming more the norm than the exception. There are parts of this great city that you can no longer walk after dark, or even in the day without extreme caution.
> 
> Whatever, puff away and pretend there isn't a problem, then take a stumble through Jane and Finch or Flemingdon park.


Dude, I used to live downtown Toronto... granted it was a nice area (Yonge and Eglington) but I would have no problem going to Markham, Scarborough or Landsdown.

I also lived in St. Catharines and was there in the early 90's when young girls were being picked off the street.

This is Canada... it is not East L.A. I find your assumptions of Toronto and crime in Canada to be alarmist and counter productive.

You watch TOO MUCH TV.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

NBiBooker said:


> You've got to be joking. Every right and freedom should be taken away from them.
> 
> As for the other, umm punishment, it's an er, lifestyle choice.


My comment wasn't a criticism on the treatment of prisoners... It was an observation that criminals do time and rightfully so.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

andreww said:


> Thats why the crime problem will never be solved. I could do it in a matter of a few years, but it would require racial profiling, stiff prison terms for anything aggressive, deportations and anything else that I could use.


For the love of all that is holy, I hope that you are never put in a position of political influence here in Canada.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

andreww said:


> Thats why the crime problem will never be solved. I could do it in a matter of a few years, but it would require racial profiling, stiff prison terms for anything aggressive, deportations and anything else that I could use.


And who would you deport and where? 
Frankly your solution is patently racist, xenophobic and utterly without merit. It shows a knee-jerk reaction to the lowest vile emotions.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

andreww said:


> Thats why the crime problem will never be solved. I could do it in a matter of a few years, but it would require racial profiling, stiff prison terms for anything aggressive, deportations and anything else that I could use.


That wouldn't "solve" the problem. It would drive it underground, and likely feed it. If you doubt that, check out any one of the totalitarian regimes in the world.

Beej, you are right, of course, that questioning a position often feels personal to the one who holds that position, and it often is. But I am not defined by any one stance that I hold, and nor are most people. There are some stances I hold that, if I am brutally honest, are probably just as based in fear and hatred as the majority of the statements I have heard expressed here in support of the death penalty. Sometimes, someone can help me see that, and I can attempt to change them, but often that is not the case. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, before someone jumps on my tactics. I frankly have enough other walls to beat my head against, I don't need to do the same here.

If you honestly believe that I am assaulting your entire person because of one opinion that you hold, then I'm afraid there's not much I can do about that. If that's how you feel, then so be it. That is not my intent, and I believe I have stated my intent clearly. I am not, however, prepared to moderate my presentation any further than I already have. Not because my opinion is more important than anyone else's, but because I wouldn't want others pussy-footing around me in a similar situation. I believe that support for capital punishment, for the most part, come from one of the two sources that we have seen in this thread. Either the individual a) mistakenly believes that it is cheaper and/or an effective deterrent; or b) they are so consumed by fear and hatred for those who commit violent crime that they want revenge. Well, most of the time it's some combination of both, but one or the other is dominant. Nothing that I have seen in this thread has changed the way support for capital punishment appears to me.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

andreww said:


> Da_jonesy, Grimsby is a long way from toronto when it comes to crime.


Toronto the bad? HAHAHAHAHA


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

NBiBooker said:


> As for the other, umm punishment, it's an er, lifestyle choice.


I assume you are joking here, and not actually describing rape as a lifestyle choice.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Well put RevMatt, although I think you miss one reason for support of the death penalty. 

A basic feeling of justice as 'eye for an eye' is another source, and it doesn't necessarily stem from hatred or fear. It is more a basic belief for some, that if you do A to society, society does A back to you. No hate, no fear, no ignorance of the #s, just one interpretation of what justice is.

Another interpretation is forced time outside society (ie jail), and yet another would be rehabilitation. I don't think these different approaches are necessarily based on a deeper emotion, but they often are.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

RevMatt said:


> I believe that support for capital punishment, for the most part, come from one of the two sources that we have seen in this thread. Either the individual a) mistakenly believes that it is cheaper and/or an effective deterrent; or b) they are so consumed by fear and hatred for those who commit violent crime that they want revenge. Well, most of the time it's some combination of both, but one or the other is dominant.


I think that it's a fair assessment. I think that the death penalty may actually have a brutalization effect on society.


----------



## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Beej said:


> Well put RevMatt, although I think you miss one reason for support of the death penalty.
> 
> A basic feeling of justice as 'eye for an eye' is another source, and it doesn't necessarily stem from hatred or fear. It is more a basic belief for some, that if you do A to society, society does A back to you. No hate, no fear, no ignorance of the #s, just one interpretation of what justice is.


I was thinking of that when I said vengeance, but I wasn't very clear on that point.



Beej said:


> Another interpretation is forced time outside society (ie jail), and yet another would be rehabilitation. I don't think these different approaches are necessarily based on a deeper emotion, but they often are.


How do either of these positions lead to support for capital punishment? Death seems altogether different than time apart, and there can't be post-mortem rehabilitation. Or am I missing something here?


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> > I believe that support for capital punishment, for the most part, come from one of the two sources that we have seen in this thread. Either the individual a) mistakenly believes that it is cheaper and/or an effective deterrent; or b) they are so consumed by fear and hatred for those who commit violent crime that they want revenge. Well, most of the time it's some combination of both, but one or the other is dominant.
> 
> 
> I think that it's a fair assessment. I think that the death penalty may actually have a brutalization effect on society.


Not really, no. It's not. Not even close. Maybe some more demonizing of the opposition is in order?

How is the death penalty affecting our society any worse than the needless homicides that occur ever year, with the most recent being a slap in the face of the victim's families (Homolka)? I'd wager the hours of Fox programming showing the world's deadliest police chases, gun fights and endless episodes of Cops have a greater effect overall on society than one execution every other year. Heck, you hear more about brutal murders of innocent people!

You're barking up the wrong tree.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> And who would you deport and where?
> Frankly your solution is patently racist, xenophobic and utterly without merit. It shows a knee-jerk reaction to the lowest vile emotions.


dude it don't take a genius to read the papers and see where the gun play is from.

Jamaica & Asia


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> You're barking up the wrong tree.


And you have only shown a visceral response. Really nothing of value...

Shows such as Cops are part of a culture of violence, and it does propagate fear. 

It's not one execution every other year - it's a arbitrary haphazard state sanctioned murder.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

RevMatt said:


> I assume you are joking here, and not actually describing rape as a lifestyle choice.


I just don't feel free to condemn men who chose to have sex with men in prison. 

They aren't all rapes and to imply so shows an alarming prejudice towards the minority homosexual population who happen to be in jail. 

/ End sarcasm.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

RevMatt said:


> How do either of these positions lead to support for capital punishment? Death seems altogether different than time apart, and there can't be post-mortem rehabilitation. Or am I missing something here?


I was just providing examples of alternative forms of justice, none of which, including the death penalty, are necessarily based on fear, hatred or lack of knowledge of the statistics. 

They can be based on those factors, but I don't agree with the limitations set by your two categories for reasons behind supporting the death penalty. I think that someone can support the death penalty without fear, hatred and with full knowledge of the statistics.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> And you have only shown a visceral response. Really nothing of value...
> 
> Shows such as Cops are part of a culture of violence, and it does propagate fear.
> 
> It's not one execution every other year - it's a arbitrary haphazard state sanctioned murder.


What's the matter, eh? Perhaps you should revisit your comment and highlight some of your gems. You can nitpick every minute point of my posts until your blue in the face, it just shows your intolerance for people who don't share your views. :baby: 

From what I've read, the execution of Williams was not arbitrary. Perhaps HIS killing of innocents may have been... but whatever. What the [email protected] do you care, my comments are of no apparent value.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

As I stated earlier, I cannot feel sorry for this Tookie fellow after what he did.
I don't think that the death penalty is either a deterent or a solution either.

Eye for an eye?.........doesn't this just create a vicious circle? He did this so he deserves that.....then the next action is worse and round and round it goes til something absolutely tragic happens......and is anything solved in the end?


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## Robbie_Mac (Nov 20, 2005)

This is one bizarre thread. There are all of theses cute icons with bunny rabbits and fuzzy monsters and puppies and robots. And the discussion is murder, rape and prison sex and who deserves to have what done to whom. Talk about juxtaposition. Salvador Dali would be proud.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Robbie_Mac said:


> This is one bizarre thread. There are all of theses cute icons with bunny rabbits and fuzzy monsters and puppies and robots. And discussion is murder, rape and prison sex and who deserves to have what done to whom. Talk about juxtaposition. Salvador Dali would be proud.



Dude... I love you.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

I don't agree with the death penalty because innocent people slip through the cracks. If there was 100% proof a person was guilty of murder (e.g. caught on camera or whatever), then I think the death penalty is morally justified. I also think the victims family should have a role to play in this. Perhaps, they should have the final say on whether the punishment is life in prison or death.

I also believe in swift justice. It took something like 20 years for this guy to make it through the courts. What a waste of resources.

As far as it being a deterent, I don't think it is. Murder is usually committed by people who don't consider the consequence of their actions.


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## Robbie_Mac (Nov 20, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> Dude... I love you.



I love you too. But you already knew that.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Robbie_Mac said:


> I love you too. But you already knew that.


feels like a *Brokeback Mountain* moment


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## Robbie_Mac (Nov 20, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> feels like a *Brokeback Mountain* moment


Hey now!! That's something that is punishable by death in some countries.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Since I have yet to post in this thread, suffice to say that the chance of a mistake and putting the wrong person to death for a crime in my mind far outweighs any deterrent the death penalty realizes. Therefore I am not in favour of using the death penalty in Canada.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

See, this is how you know that we are capable of real, intelligent debate around here. Sinc and I agree! Sinc and left-wingers agree! Scary


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

RevMatt said:


> See, this is how you know that we are capable of real, intelligent debate around here. Sinc and I agree! Sinc and left-wingers agree! Scary


Will wonders never cease?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Will wonders never cease?


You are voting Liberal after all, no?


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> You are voting Liberal after all, no?


No need to rub it in, AS. 'tis uncomfortable enough to be both intelligent and conservatively inclined since the death of the PC party.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> You are voting Liberal after all, no?


Yep, might as well have a crook in our riding too. Share in the spoils so to speak. It's my way of protesting the Conservatives stupidity in keeping Harper around.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Yep, might as well have a crook in our riding too. Share in the spoils so to speak. It's my way of protesting the Conservatives stupidity in keeping Harper around.


Sinc, I think the Liberals just found their new tv ad.
They may be crooks, but they do pay up.
Expect a call and cheque coming your way soon.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Lol! :clap:


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

SINC said:


> Since I have yet to post in this thread, suffice to say that the chance of a mistake and putting the wrong person to death for a crime in my mind far outweighs any deterrent the death penalty realizes. Therefore I am not in favour of using the death penalty in Canada.


What about equipping police officers with firearms? The chance of any mistake of a person getting killed (regardless of guilt or innocence) is a possibility.

I don't understand the ideology that it's okay to have armed police officers, as well as our national armed forces. If it's not okay to kill a felon, what makes it any better to kill someone in the name of protecting the public, or killing for the purposes of war?

Where does one draw the line between acceptable and not acceptable?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

« MannyP Design » said:


> What about equipping police officers with firearms? The chance of any mistake of a person getting killed (regardless of guilt or innocence) is a possibility.
> 
> I don't understand the ideology that it's okay to have armed police officers, as well as our national armed forces. If it's not okay to kill a felon, what makes it any better to kill someone in the name of protecting the public, or killing for the purposes of war?
> 
> Where does one draw the line between acceptable and not acceptable?


A very tough question to be sure Manny.

If we disarm our police forces, the advantage immediately goes to the criminals who arm themselves with illegal handguns. Since the protection of society is paramount to police, it seems that handguns for them is a necessity, like it or not.

Likewise when mankind was faced with the evil of Hitler and the slaughter of millions of innocents, again guns were necessary to put him down.

I guess one has to weigh the good against the evil where the use of firepower is involved.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> What about equipping police officers with firearms? The chance of any mistake of a person getting killed (regardless of guilt or innocence) is a possibility.


Yes, but police officers receive extensive training as to when use firearms. They are not used (unless of police brutality) when someone is strapped to a gurney...



« MannyP Design » said:


> I don't understand the ideology that it's okay to have armed police officers, as well as our national armed forces. If it's not okay to kill a felon, what makes it any better to kill someone in the name of protecting the public, or killing for the purposes of war?


There are very difference circumstances. Armed police officers are for their protection and a deterrent. Before a police officer pulls out a gun, he thinks about it...
Does it make it better to kill in the name of protecting the public? Certainly not, and police officers do not have the mandate to kill perps - Yesterday there was an armed standoff in Laval, the police showed restrain and brought the situation to an end... without killing.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Yes, but police officers receive extensive training as to when use firearms. They are not used (unless of police brutality) when someone is strapped to a gurney...
> 
> 
> There are very difference circumstances. Armed police officers are for their protection and a deterrent. Before a police officer pulls out a gun, he thinks about it...
> Does it make it better to kill in the name of protecting the public? Certainly not, and police officers do not have the mandate to kill perps - Yesterday there was an armed standoff in Laval, the police showed restrain and brought the situation to an end... without killing.


But sadly, a female police officer was killed, was she not?

This clearly shows that to disarm police would be a huge mistake, even though they showed restraint when the gunman had killed one of their own. That speaks volumes to your point that they are well trained.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

and the scary part is that she was wearing a bullet proof vest


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

or that he had a <b>legal</b> shotgun in Canada...


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

The question I have (and forgive me, I haven't read every last post in this thread, but I don't think this has been raised) is this:

If the death penalty is a deterrent, then why does China lead the world in executions year after year? You'd think the criminals would be deterred by now, but apparently they're not. 

One poster also claimed that deterrent effects would increase if cases were expedited. AFAIK, the Chinese don't bother with nuisances like due process and appeals -- and yet the executions continue at a world-record pace.

I can only conclude that even in a brutal police state, the rewards of crime (or the power of anger, in the case of crimes of passion) outweigh even the risk of swift execution. I see no reason to expect different results in a democracy.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> Yes, but police officers receive extensive training as to when use firearms. They are not used (unless of police brutality) when someone is strapped to a gurney...


So you're saying it's okay for a police officer to kill someone if they deem it necessary because they are trained... we rely on their ability to judge a situation and administer, what they perceive to be, the correct response without needing a lawyer, judge or tribunal of any sort... potentially killing innocent(s), just as long as they are not already incapacitated.

And people are up in arms about Tazers being used? What a twisted sense of logic society, in general, has.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> and the scary part is that she was wearing a bullet proof vest


The vest only covers the torso... unfortunately.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

« MannyP Design » said:


> The vest only covers the torso... unfortunately.


According to what I heard, she could have been wearing five vests but it wouldn't have made a difference -- quote from the Montreal Gazette:



> _Laval police chief Jean-Pierre Gariepy says the high-powered rifle that was used was strong enough to kill an elephant._


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> So you're saying it's okay for a police officer to kill someone if they deem it necessary because they are trained... we rely on their ability to judge a situation and administer, what they perceive to be, the correct response without needing a lawyer, judge or tribunal of any sort... potentially killing innocent(s), just as long as they are not already incapacitated.
> 
> And people are up in arms about Tazers being used? What a twisted sense of logic society, in general, has.


MannyP, police will/should only kill when their immediate life is in danger. This is not the case with state sanctioned murder. 
Police are not trained to kill but to defend themselves - using a gun is a last resort. 
Equating self-defence with killing a prisoner is perverse logic indeed....


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Equating self-defence with killing a prisoner is perverse logic indeed....


Yeah, somehow it seems a bit of a stretch to even come close to being logical.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

My father was a police officer in Toronto......he hated pulling his gun and they did their best to resolve things without having to.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Cameo said:


> My father was a police officer in Toronto......he hated pulling his gun and they did their best to resolve things without having to.


So, we have something in common Cameo. My father was a police officer for 30 years following WWII. He too had no desire to ever have to use his gun.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> MannyP, police will/should only kill when their immediate life is in danger. This is not the case with state sanctioned murder.
> Police are not trained to kill but to defend themselves - using a gun is a last resort.
> Equating self-defence with killing a prisoner is perverse logic indeed....


First and foremost they will lethal force to stop potentially lethal conflict -- this is NOT limited to self defence. They have used lethal force in the past, and have continued to do so.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> First and foremost they will lethal force to stop potentially lethal conflict -- this is NOT limited to self defence. They have used lethal force in the past, and have continued to do so.


Pleeease Manny - Police in this country do not use the tactic of killing criminals to stop a conflict. It is a last resort. 

I don't assume you see the difference as to you criminal deserve to die and human life is something that the state should take away....


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

"First and foremost they will lethal force to stop potentially lethal conflict -- this is NOT limited to self defence. They have used lethal force in the past, and have continued to do so."

Don't swipe the entire force with the actions of a few........no police force, no organization, no political party, no job, no school, the list goes on.....is perfect, people can only do the best they can do and in this case - the majority of the police force shouldn't become tarnished because of a few "macho or arrogant" idiots.

I picked the wrong quote at first sorry.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Cameo said:


> "First and foremost they will lethal force to stop potentially lethal conflict -- this is NOT limited to self defence. They have used lethal force in the past, and have continued to do so."
> 
> Don't swipe the entire force with the actions of a few........no police force, no organization, no political party, no job, no school, the list goes on.....is perfect, people can only do the best they can do and in this case - the majority of the police force shouldn't become tarnished because of a few "macho or arrogant" idiots.
> 
> I picked the wrong quote at first sorry.


Who said swipe? Artist Series claimed Police could only use lethal force for self defense -- that is completely false. I didn't question the ethics of the police force or attempted to paint them as macho idiots.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> Pleeease Manny - Police in this country do not use the tactic of killing criminals to stop a conflict. It is a last resort.
> 
> I don't assume you see the difference as to you criminal deserve to die and human life is something that the state should take away....


Ooookay. Now it's getting retarded. Apparently people can't read anymore.

This, compounded with your criticisms of my earlier post, is just getting ridiculous. Trying discuss individuals' beliefs is an exercise in futility while listening to people flap their gums as they demonize other's opinions while they are labelled hateful or vengeful. It's obvious some people have no interest in debate, nor conversing... but just being an ass in general, so I'm withdrawing from this topic altogether.

Buh-bye! XX)


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I misunderstood - though, except for a few cases, I don't believe they resort to "lethal conflict" until pushed to do so. I am saying this with my own interprestation of "lethal conflict", so I would appreciate an explanation as to exactly what is meant by this.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> It's obvious some people have no interest in debate, nor conversing...


Take a valium... go for a walk.... and please come back and explain why you think capital punishment should be endorsed by the state with criminals.

I have read an re-read what you have written is this thread and it seems solely based on vengeance - so maybe you can clear this up?


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## JPL (Jan 21, 2005)

_If the death penalty is a deterrent, then why does China lead the world in executions year after year? You'd think the criminals would be deterred by now, but apparently they're not. 
I can only conclude that even in a brutal police state, the rewards of crime (or the power of anger, in the case of crimes of passion) outweigh even the risk of swift execution. I see no reason to expect different results in a democracy.[/QUOTE]_
To be a deterrent (I am not saying it is) the populace as a whole have to know about it, unlikley this is the case in a ridgid communist society.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

*** created separate thread ***


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## audiodan (Sep 26, 2005)

I think Tookie should be alive today, although he killed 4 people. Think of all the people he saved with all of his peace acts!


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## appleturnovercanada (Nov 2, 2005)

*Cultural Cannibal*

So long Tookie (an apt name for one who "took" so many lives) hope it was worth it.

The only thing that the state of California got wrong was letting an official (it apparently took the guards 11 tries to find a vien - in the neck it goes!) do the deed.

They should have held a lottery amongst the family members of his victims for the right to kill him. 

Additionally, the remaining victims and their families should not be isloated behind a glass wall but should be right up close to the scumbag to hear the final breath rattle out of him.

Good Riddance to you and those you have spawned you cultural cannibal. 

May your race hold you in disgrace forvever.

appleturnovercanada


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## Dudireno (Jan 17, 2005)

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/column/larryelder/2005/12/15/179161.html

I think this article was great. I love the last 2 paragraphs.

"Consider the following hypothetical. David Duke, former imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, murders, in cold blood, four innocent blacks. But, wait. Duke later renounces the Klan and pens children's books urging white kids to reject racism. But he refuses to accept responsibility for the murder of the four innocent blacks, claiming that a racist jury convicted him for his reputation, not for the murders. Imagine Snoop Dogg, Jamie Foxx, Ed Asner or the NAACP organizing a campaign to spare the "redeemed" Duke's life. 

Williams' life inspired the movie called "Redemption." But a truly redeemed Williams would have said: "This is what happens. This is where you end up when you think the rules do not apply to you; when, because of anger and rage, you kill innocent people. I accept responsibility for what I did. I apologize to the family members. Please understand that I was not a victim of a racist, unfair criminal justice system, and I urge all criminals to first look into the mirror before blaming the police, the judges, the system. I made choices that put me here. The lesson of my life is -- no matter your circumstances, your race, your class -- you are responsible for making proper moral decisions. It is your duty to do so." 

That's redemption. "


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Right on !! Excellent article. Thanks for posting.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Was wondering where our American Libertarian would pop up again...

And quoting from a Rush Wanne-be...

The debate is/was about the death penalty - and for the record, if this was David Duke the same rules should apply. But since David Duke is white, there is a lot less chances that he would get the death penalty (funny how the law works in the US)...


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## Dudireno (Jan 17, 2005)

If you go to deathpenatlyinfo.org and goto the execution database you can see that far more whites have been executed than blacks since the late seventies. 339 black to 579 white. Whats overwhelming is of those who were executed 80% of the victims were white. Tookie killed 3 asians and 1 white.

Hardly any whites are executed for murdering blacks. I guess that is why you are drawing your conclusion that David Duke is less likely to get the death penatly. However, stats also show it is far more likely for black on white crime than white on black crime. I guess you could say the cops are all racists and therefore more black on white crime is reported. 

I personally believe that the black leaders in this country continue to thrive and perpetuate black anger towards white. I also believe that single female households are breeding grounds for criminals. Illigitimacy rate is over 70% in the black community. Can't blame that on discrimination.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

"I also believe that single female households are breeding grounds for criminals. Illigitimacy rate is over 70% in the black community. Can't blame that on discrimination.[/QUOTE]"

Are you talking about single black mothers or single black women, single mothers of any colour or single females of any colour? And please explain your statement.


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## Dudireno (Jan 17, 2005)

I was talking about single black mothers. But it applies to all color. I personally believe that without a father figure young boys are more likely to be criminals and participate in gangs. These gangs take the place of fathers in their lives. Your father not sticking around isn't exactly a pleasant idea for a child.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

As a single mother I find that thought very scary and I hope that you are completely wrong.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dudireno said:


> But it applies to all color. I personally believe that without a father figure young boys are more likely to be criminals and participate in gangs. These gangs take the place of fathers in their lives. Your father not sticking around isn't exactly a pleasant idea for a child.


You forgot to add the other stereotype where the single overbearing mothers will turn her boy to grow up and be homosexual and sing songs of Broadway...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dudireno said:


> If you go to deathpenatlyinfo.org


Link seems broken...


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## Dudireno (Jan 17, 2005)

I don't think I am wrong...but your children can turn out to be wonderful people. My wife and her brother did. 

My point is the racial thing is a weak argument when it comes to the death penalty. This man committed horrible murders...who cares if he is black or white. You really want to see what this man did goto michaelsavage.com(Another rush wannabe) and you can see his victims. I warn you its not pleasent. The media paints a picture of this guy being some kind of an author that changed lives. I heard he sold like 300 books. I could careless if he was killed or not. Let him rot in jail as far as I am concerned. But to feel compassion for the guy or nominating him for a nobel peace prize is ridiculous.


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## Dudireno (Jan 17, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> You forgot to add the other stereotype where the single overbearing mothers will turn her boy to grow up and be homosexual and sing songs of Broadway...


And the only discrimination you haven't thought of is anti-semitism but i am sure if I wait long enough you will accuse someone of that too.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dudireno said:


> My point is the racial thing is a weak argument when it comes to the death penalty.


The death penalty, should not exist. 



Dudireno said:


> This man committed horrible murders...who cares if he is black or white. You really want to see what this man did goto michaelsavage.com(Another rush wannabe) and you can see his victims.


Mr. Savage is amusing. ""I commend" prisoner abuse; "we need more" (thanks there Mr. Savage but don't be surprised when it comes around).
I have no problems with seeing the images - death is never pretty.




Dudireno said:


> I warn you its not pleasent. The media paints a picture of this guy being some kind of an author that changed lives. I heard he sold like 300 books. I could careless if he was killed or not. Let him rot in jail as far as I am concerned.


So, you have changed your stance on the death penalty? The point was to let him rot in prison.


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## Dudireno (Jan 17, 2005)

My comments never included whether the death penalty should or should not exist. My comments were a link that made a point about his redemption is weak and the media using discrimination to its advantage. You commented by accusing the US law system of discrimination. Then I showed you stats that show how far more whites are executed than blacks. Then I theorized why whites are usually the vicitims of those who were executed. Then you you bilittled the role of a father and made some homosexual comment. And finally I pointed out that supporting this guy is ridiculous whether you support the death penalty or not. 

And now you are acting like you are sticking to the point and playing semantics.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Dudireno said:


> You commented by accusing the US law system of discrimination. Then I showed you stats that show how far more whites are executed than blacks.


Actually no, the link still does not work.
http://www.deathpenatlyinfo.org/ = under construction



Dudireno said:


> Then you you bilittled the role of a father and made some homosexual comment.


Actually, you belittled the role of mothers and made a real asinine remark - can't fault you for that.


Dudireno said:


> I also believe that single female households are breeding grounds for criminals. Illigitimacy rate is over 70% in the black community. Can't blame that on discrimination.


Cameo is the one who took offence. I find the stereotype amusing as (in true neo-con manner) you don't explore the reasons...


Dudireno said:


> And finally I pointed out that supporting this guy is ridiculous whether you support the death penalty or not.


The support is against the death penalty. He may not be the poster child for clean living but it's not the point - This is about state sanctioned murder.


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## Dudireno (Jan 17, 2005)

Put a little thought into it. it was a typo....http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

What part of it is asinine? what exactly don't you agree with? Because let me tell you since I read Behavior health unit records daily I can assure you that all the children in the unit are either abused, neglected, or from single parent homes. I don't know how many times I read "patient has no relationship with father" Its not a stereotype. They are more likely to be sexually active, get involved with drugs, and participate in criminal activity. You are in denial if you disagree. 


Would you leave your child? If not why? Would you stay for yourself or would stay for the child? I think it is obvious that you would stay for the child and that insinuates the child needs you.

I don't know cameo's situation. I don't envy her responsibility. It is a much harder to be a single parent. She should be honored for doing a good job.

Don't try an spin this into me being a jerk. You demonstrated animosity towards me from the start.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Although I took my four boys and left my husband, some parents are single as the other passed away. Regardless, it is tough. 

Leave my child.........no way. Stay?...........- some situations are just not good for children and they are better and safer away from them and the bad influence caused by them.

Thank you for your words dudireno - I can only hope and pray that I have done a good job. I have tried to teach my children right from wrong, good from bad, consequences and responsibility. Your belief re single parent households is a terrifying one, I don't know enough about it to say right or wrong. I do know that my kids are not criminals, that they do not hang around in gangs, that they are generous and loving and "there" for each other, me, friends, that they care about animals and won't see anyone or anything suffer. 

This issue re: death penalty/jail sentences is soo complex. As I stated earlier, eye for an eye can create a vicious circle without resolution, in my own opinion. I don't agree with deliberately taking a life either. I don't care for my hard earned tax dollars supporting a murderer in jail. Yet the thought of an innocent being given the death penalty is also terrifying.

I don't feel any regret that this Tookie is gone, what he did was unforgivable and people, just as I have tried to teach my kids, have to learn to think about the big picture, consequences, how will it affect others. I cannot believe that anyone who murders another doesn't know it is wrong or that it hurts many others. But I cannot say that sentencing him to death did or will do anything positive either.

What is the solution? The world will be a tremendously better place once that is figured out.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I was sort of a reverse situation as Cameo. My wife suddenly decided she wanted to be on her own, and left me with a nearly four year old son and a profoundly disable seven year old daughter. I was a single-parent for nearly five years, and my children did not suffer because their mom decided to leave. I was NOT going anywhere, and if a child has a least one loving parent, as in the case of Cameo, then this is a foundation upon which to help a child develop emotionally/physically/intellectually.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

This is sort of off topic and on. It has been my belief - right or wrong - that a child should have the support of BOTH parents - whether the parents are together or not - and that if they do, if the parents divorce and if the child knows that it is not their fault and that both parents love them - then that child has as good a chance of growing up to be a good caring person. The child of only one supporting parent CAN still become that good caring person, who knows right from wrong, good from bad - to have respect for anothers life. I have had to hold onto that belief. Sadly, it seems from what Dudireno has pointed out - this may not be the norm, that many of the criminals are from single parent homes. With divorce rates going up I don't know what this states for the future. I knew that many criminals grew up in abusive/neglectful homes. Many of these I suppose may take anothers life - this seems to be happening to many at younger ages - seems we need to find resolution for prevention rather than enforcing capital punishment which from what has been stated throughout this thread does not seem to be a deterrent.


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## Dudireno (Jan 17, 2005)

I can agree with you that it is not much of a deterrent. I would think it doesn't offer much more of a deterrent than life in prison. Besides they might not be that scarred of death.

However, to say we might be killing innocent people is a equally weak argument. It can go both ways. For example Clarence Ray Allen if he was executed could have prevented deaths. He developed a scheme to kill people while in jail. Preventing the death of one may cost the lives of others including fellow prisoners and guards. Guards are killed in jail by convicted murderers.

I can acknowledge that there may be moral arguments to execution of murders. I just haven't heard a good one.


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