# Decorum on ehMac.ca....



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Let's keep the decorum on ehMac.ca a little more friendly, please.  

Just browsing through a few threads this morning I read a few posts with nasty tones that seemed to come out of nowhere. 

The Everything Else forum has a lot of threads regarding issues that have strong opinions from members on the left and right. Many topics have been discussed and debated ad nauseam, such as youth crime, elected judges, etc... 

These topics can continue to be discussed and debated, but if posts are going to continue to be personal, condescending attacks, threads will be closed or members given some time off. 

- ehMax


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## duosonic (Jan 7, 2004)

Thank you, Mr. Mayor - perhaps if people discuss the issues rather than descending to personal attacks, more people will feel comfortable joining in.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

ehMax said:


> Let's keep the decorum on ehMac.ca a little more friendly, please.


I agree. It is entirely possible to discuss strongly held beliefs without getting into personal insults and digs. The anonymity of sitting behind our computers on the internet make it easier for all of us to flame each other. It's usually the little digs that escalate into bigger flames. I would probably contribute more if the atmosphere was more convivial. Most of the time now I just look at the usual suspects bashing each other back and forth and just sigh ...


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I would probably contribute more if the atmosphere was more convivial. Most of the time now I just look at the usual suspects bashing each other back and forth and just sigh ...


Ditto.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Here, here!

I've slowly come to the ghastly realisation that there are folk around here who are prone to taking things far too seriously, as a sort of hobby. I have a theory about that.

And another thing. I'd put them all in a room together, with pencils and paper, and set them to work trying to square the circle. It's a beast of a question, and the sooner it's answered the better for all of us.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> And another thing. I'd put them all in a room together, with pencils and paper, and set them to work trying to square the circle. It's a beast of a question, and the sooner it's answered the better for all of us.


"Go not thou about to square either circle (God or thyself)." 

Here is this thread about being nice and you take a shot at some of us


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

Gerry MacNutt is looking down at us and laughing his butt off.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

gwillikers said:


> Gerry MacNutt is looking down at us and laughing his butt off.


Gerry was actually (in most cases) the prime example of what ehMac.ca should be. He would come out with very long, elaborate posts and debates and would argue his point of view fiercely, but in most cases, would never make it personal... and if he did, it was mostly tongue in cheek ribbing. 

He'd drive me nutts with his ideas and persistence, but in most cases he argued the ideas, not resort to personal attacks. 

The founding idea of ehMac.ca was to be a brightly lit, friendly place on the web to discuss and debate Mac stuff and Canadian life. To be an online community. 

I'm not looking for some utopia of shiny happy people holding hands and singing. I love fierce debates on all topics, and nothing is off-bounds. The very clear distinction is debating an idea vs attacking a person for holding an idea.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ehMax said:


> Gerry was actually (in most cases) the prime example of what ehMac.ca should be. He would come out with very long, elaborate posts and debates and would argue his point of view fiercely, but in most cases, would never make it personal... and if he did, it was mostly tongue in cheek ribbing.
> 
> He'd drive me nutts with his ideas and persistence, but in most cases he argued the ideas, not resort to personal attacks.
> 
> ...


ooohhhhh?
I'll have to write this one down


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Mayor, did Beej get a time-out recently? I haven't seen him post for a number of weeks now.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Vandave said:


> Mayor, did Beej get a time-out recently? I haven't seen him post for a number of weeks now.


Beej? Didn't you know?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

What the... I too want to know what happened to the formerly ubiquitous Beej.

I agree that MacNutt would have been laughing his @ss off at we mere mortals down here, still jawing away, still posturing and grunting our approval and disapproval at every little thing. But that's also what makes us human, I suppose.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Vandave said:


> Mayor, did Beej get a time-out recently? I haven't seen him post for a number of weeks now.


I don't think so. His status is clear.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

I hope he hasn't been given a permanent time-out. Lest we forget: 

beejacon beejacon beejacon beejacon beejacon beejacon beejacon beejaconbeejacon beejacon beejacon beejacon beejacon beejacon beejacon


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ehMax said:


> I don't think so. His status is *clear.*


you mean he's a Scientologist?
that would explain much


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> ooohhhhh?
> I'll have to write this one down


Why? Besides topics that are outlined in ehMac's T's & C's, what topic hasn't been alllowed on ehMac.ca?



> You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use ehMac to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by ehMac.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ehMax said:


> Why? Besides topics that are outlined in ehMac's T's & C's, what topic hasn't been alllowed on ehMac.ca?


how do I mention said topic when mentioning said topic might lead to a "time out" for me?

start the clock - 60 seconds to figure out the riddle....
tick, tick, tick....


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> Beej? Didn't you know?


Oh no. He punched someone while wearing those really swell looking rings and now he's in jail!


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> how do I mention said topic when mentioning said topic might lead to a "time out" for me?
> 
> start the clock - 60 seconds to figure out the riddle....
> tick, tick, tick....


Remember when you PM'd multiple times about removing a post about you and your company that you thought was defaming your reputation? 
Yes, that follows under ehMac.ca's T's and C's and was removed at your request. 

What you're referring to above I believe, is when you posted defaming remarks about the company that hosts ehMac.ca. That started out when ehMac.ca was being attacked by hackers and the person who owns the company that hosts ehMac.ca was working like crazy to protect ehMac.ca, and in doing so, had to shut the site off momentarily. You took the very unprofessional liberty of contacting my web hosting company directly in an oh-so-pleasant manner. He got mad at you and told you where to go. You found it necessary to repeatedly bring this up and defame the company that hosts ehMac.ca... which yes, is against the T's and C's of ehMac.ca and was removed. 

Defamation, libelous statements etc...are something that I do treat very seriously, as ehMac.ca has been on the receiving end of several letters from lawyers. Litigation is not really my thing. If it was on something of principle that I was passionate about, I'd stand up for myself, but it many cases, removing said posts is a lot easier. 

----

The whole thing is about internet forums... its really easy for people to think they are anonymous. There are so many internet tough guys, typing away on a keyboard in the comfort of their homes hundreds or thousands of km's away from the person they are replying to. 

People have to remember, they are replying to a real human being, not some text on a screen. 

----

The whole point is this thread is asking nicely that we all try to refrain from posting derogatory comments towards other members.


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

ehMax said:


> Gerry was actually (in most cases) the prime example of what ehMac.ca should be. He would come out with very long, elaborate posts and debates and would argue his point of view fiercely, but in most cases, would never make it personal... and if he did, it was mostly tongue in cheek ribbing.
> 
> He'd drive me nutts with his ideas and persistence, but in most cases he argued the ideas, not resort to personal attacks.
> 
> ...


Sounds crystal clear to me! Thank you for providing this place...


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

ehMax said:


> The whole thing is about internet forums... its really easy for people to think they are anonymous. There are so many internet tough guys, typing away on a keyboard in the comfort of their homes hundreds or thousands of km's away from the person they are replying to.
> 
> People have to remember, they are replying to a real human being, not some text on a screen.


Well said ehMax. :clap:


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ehMax said:


> Remember when you PM'd multiple times about removing a post about you and your company that you thought was defaming your reputation?
> Yes, that follows under ehMac.ca's T's and C's and was removed at your request.
> 
> What you're referring to above I believe, is when you posted defaming remarks about the company that hosts ehMac.ca. That started out when ehMac.ca was being attacked by hackers and the person who owns the company that hosts ehMac.ca was working like crazy to protect ehMac.ca, and in doing so, had to shut the site off momentarily. You took the very unprofessional liberty of contacting my web hosting company directly in an oh-so-pleasant manner. He got mad at you and told you where to go. You found it necessary to repeatedly bring this up and defame the company that hosts ehMac.ca... which yes, is against the T's and C's of ehMac.ca and was removed.
> ...


yeah, being sworn at by a web host always brightens my day
and you amazingly fail to mention how unprofessionally the host acted and sent me disturbing and somewhat threatening emails as such
and yet that fact goes un-mentioned by you

and yet I have repeatedly tried to steer you to a great host that I use for my clients and my site, a canadian host in fact

they have yet to send me threatening emails unlike the current ehmac host that must go nameless

so now I get it
me posting emails showing the state of mind of the owner of the hosting company falls under ehmac T's & C's

riiighhhtt....

message received skipper - oh so loud and oh so clear


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Send an unprofessional message, get an unprofessional reply?

To tango takes two it does.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> yeah, being sworn at by a web host always brightens my day
> and you amazingly fail to mention how unprofessionally the host acted and sent me disturbing and somewhat threatening emails as such
> and yet that fact goes un-mentioned by you
> 
> ...


MS, I'm not going to stoop to your level.

If you don't want people questioning your business ethics, character or your state of mind, I suggest you not be so quick to dispense your opinion on others.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ehMax said:


> MS, I'm not going to stoop to your level.
> 
> If you don't want people questioning your business ethics, character or your state of mind, I suggest you not be so quick to dispense your opinion on others.


if an ehmac member used that sort of language, as did owner of ehmac host, towards another online, they would be banished in a nano second, not defended, but to each his own, and i remember the credo, "this ain't a public board", something I have never forgotten

it's private, your baby and you can obviously do as you wish

i am also interested why you never contacted the cdn. host i referred you to that was willing to host ehmac at a preferred rate

and by the way, they have never gone down...
and have yet to swear/threaten me via email
go figure, eh?

during power outages they have massive battery backup and standby generators


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

If people believe Ehmax runs Ehmac so poorly why do they continue to visit?

Who has taken away free will? :yikes:


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Good point, BigDL.. I guess the "DL" stands for "debatorum logicalis", a logical debater.


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## spicyapple (Aug 17, 2006)

...time for someone to move on.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

spicyapple said:


> ...time for someone to move on.


time for someone to change their avatar


looks a little bit crazy......


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> Good point, BigDL.. I guess the "DL" stands for "debatorum logicalis", a logical debater.


Since you asked. No DL actually are the initials of my given names Dana Logan.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Since you asked. No DL actually are the initials of my given names Dana Logan." THE Dana Logan, the Mac Maven from Metropolitan Moncton??? We have heard stories of your exploits as far east as St.John's. You are an Atlantic Canadian success story.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> if an ehmac member used that sort of language, as did owner of ehmac host, towards another online, they would be banished in a nano second, not defended, but to each his own, and i remember the credo, "this ain't a public board", something I have never forgotten
> 
> it's private, your baby and you can obviously do as you wish
> 
> ...


Again MS, I'm not going to stoop to your level. 

What happened, happened off of ehMac.ca, and was started because you thought it was professional to contact my web-host directly regarding ehMac.ca, and make false, defaming accusations. Defaming statements that you just repeated, with innuendo that my web-host's server went down, or that they don't have backup power. Those statements are inaccurate. You keep repeating them, thinking you are justified, because somebody (off of ehMac) swore at you. Yet, you are the first to cry fowl if somebody says the slightest thing about your business / reputation. 

You'll have to excuse me if I take little credence in your professional opinion / reputation, or recommendation for a web-host. 

No one is asking you to be here. If you can't even refrain from posting jabs in a thread specifically requesting people keep the level of decorum up, then perhaps you could point your browser elsewhere. Personally, my level of patience is full.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

BigDL said:


> If people believe Ehmax runs Ehmac so poorly why do they continue to visit?


I know a couple people who have left or stopped regularly visiting for this reason. Perhaps others feel a need to get the last word in?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

PosterBoy said:


> I know a couple people who have left or stopped regularly visiting for this reason. Perhaps others feel a need to get the last word in?


There have been many people *cough* who have made grandiose exits, only to return, or sign on with different user names.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

I never signed on with a different user name.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

PosterBoy said:


> I never signed on with a different user name.


only to return, *OR* sign on with different user names.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*sigh* So much for subtle humour.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

PosterBoy said:


> *sigh* So much for subtle humour.


 I can be a little slow on the uptake sometimes.


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

PosterBoy said:


> I know a couple people who have left or stopped regularly visiting for this reason. Perhaps others feel a need to get the last word in?


I was one of them ... 

I didn't make a loud and noisy exit, I just stopped posting and then I finally stopped even dropping by to see what was new because it was the same old condescending, know-it-all, "bullies" that felt that they seem to think that they know what is right for the rest of us and the rest of us can go to hell .. so much so that I just didn't want to come back.

Maybe I'll try to come back for a while but the shine is definitely worn off the chrome for me and if ehMac continues on it's path of the certain few controlling the conversations of the many then eventually it with just be those few left whining to each other on how great it used to be here (while they put each other down).


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ehMax said:


> Again MS, I'm not going to stoop to your level.


You could. 

You have to admit it would be fun to write an algorithm that would randomly lock his IP out for certain periods of time. If he thinks the ehMac server is unreliable, then he might as well experience it. :lmao:


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

simon said:


> I was one of them ...
> 
> I didn't make a loud and noisy exit, I just stopped posting and then I finally stopped even dropping by to see what was new because it was the same old condescending, know-it-all, "bullies" that felt that they seem to think that they know what is right for the rest of us and the rest of us can go to hell .. so much so that I just didn't want to come back.
> 
> Maybe I'll try to come back for a while but the shine is definitely worn off the chrome for me and if ehMac continues on it's path of the certain few controlling the conversations of the many then eventually it with just be those few left whining to each other on how great it used to be here (while they put each other down).


I must confess to failing to understand how anyone could have bullied you or anyone else. Did they spit on your keyboard? Yank out the plug to your Mac? Come over and kick sand in your face whilst flexing their cruel biceps? No, they did not. We might do well to put all of this dissension into perspective.

Simply put - you don't have to tackle the people who rile you head-on. Just jump in and state your piece... in other words, ignore your detractors and stand your ground. Or don't - your preference, as always. But please don't put the blame on alleged bullies. If you don't make contributions to this place, it will be no own's decision but your own. For my own part, I find it useful to remind myself from time to time that these places existed before I discovered them and they will do quite fine without any future participation on my part.

I understand the occasional call for decorum but I abhor the tyranny of polite society and being squished under the big bland thumb of some presumed air of politically correct neutering of conversation.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Max said:


> I understand the occasional call for decorum but I abhor the tyranny of polite society and being squished under the big bland thumb of some presumed air of politically correct neutering of conversation.


There is a difference between neutering conversation and asking people to state their points without being a asshole to the other users.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Indeed there is. Except I fear that in many discussions here that already fuzzy line gets blurred further still.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

And therein lies the problem.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

LOL!

Aye.


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## ZipperZap (Sep 24, 2006)

Familiar comments.
:clap:


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I think the line is pretty simple. 

Debating a topic
*--------------*
Personal attack / insult


*Example 1:*

Religion is bad for society because...
*--------------*
You're a neanderthal for believing in God


*Example 2:*

Appointed judges make bad decisions, they should be elected because...
--------------
You're a dumb left winger who lives a sheltered life. Have fun when you get stabbed. 


*Example 3*

I believe that's incorrect and that hasn't been my experience. I've found that....
--------------
What? You should be nominated for idiot of the year award. What are you smoking?


Argue the topic, not the person is all I'm asking. I'm don't think I'm asking for political correctness.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Okay, good enough in principle - all I'm saying is that it's not always so clear-cut as you would have us believe. Let's face it - it's a forum; misreadings and the resultant amplification of tension/dissension happen all the time. One man's clear insult is another's veiled but passable dig.

Anyway, doubtless we'll be revisiting this topic time and time again.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Max said:


> Okay, good enough in principle - all I'm saying is that it's not always so clear-cut as you would have us believe. Let's face it - it's a forum; misreadings and the resultant amplification of tension/dissension happen all the time. One man's clear insult is another's veiled but passable dig.
> 
> Anyway, doubtless we'll be revisiting this topic time and time again.


I hear you. It is a forum with hundreds of posts and members. It will never be perfect. 

Some members are experts at pushing it just enough to be a personal jab. There are some grey areas, where it will be a judgement call. 

Its just like spam, it still creeps through on ehMac.ca, but there are probably 50 attempts a day that get thwarted before they ever see the light of day. 

Just trying to lessen the ever-increasing personal attacks and insults as much as possible.


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## duosonic (Jan 7, 2004)

ehMax, thanks for holding the line. There have been too many discussions recently that quickly deteriorated into name calling and personal attacks, rather than debating the issue. It really IS simple: speak to the issue; leave personal assessments aside.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Max said:


> Okay, good enough in principle - all I'm saying is that it's not always so clear-cut as you would have us believe. Let's face it - it's a forum; misreadings and the resultant amplification of tension/dissension happen all the time. One man's clear insult is another's veiled but passable dig.
> 
> Anyway, doubtless we'll be revisiting this topic time and time again.


I think that the misreadings and resultant amplification are definitely a factor.

For example someone makes a little jab, thinking it's ironic or funny, other poster takes offence and then slams the first one and the flames begin.

Maybe I'm just a little too sensitive but I actually feel hurt when someone takes a jab at me, impugning my intelligence for a point I've made. They may think that my opinion is wrong or biased, and it may well be in many cases, but when the words idiot or moron come out I find it difficult to not react. My usual first thought is to engage in the typical escalation. Fighting it out with some folks when I was new on ehMac taught me that it gets me nowhere. Likely many people are looking to generate a reaction with their jabs anyway.

So what I started doing was typing my response in TextEdit and then waiting until the next day to see if I thought I was going overboard. Another thing that seems to work is that if I feel that the other person is getting personal I say something like "Why are you making a personal argument, I haven't done that to you?" I actually think that making ad hominem attacks only weakens someone's argument, nor do I think it's pleasant or funny to witness someone making an insult to another member, no matter how much I agree with their arguments. 

The other thing that I like to think I can do is to be always ready to apologize if someone takes what I post as a jab or insult. I'm not going to apologize for my opinions, but I hope I'll always be ready to apologize for the way I've presented them if someone finds that hurtful.

I'm certainly not infallible and I know that in my 50 years I've said a lot of stupid and hurtful things to people. I may never be willing to admit that my opinions are wrong or biased (of course they're not  ) but I hope I can be a big enough guy to say sorry if I've said something that's hurtful. I just think it's a matter of character and integrity, and ultimately about self-respect.



duosonic said:


> It really IS simple: speak to the issue; leave personal assessments aside.


:clap: What he said, — yes it really is simple.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

BTW, I'm really glad ehMax started this thread. I've felt that the insult level has been getting worse in the last year or so and it's made me less inclined to participate. I hope that this discussion will have some effect. Maybe it should be stickied?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

It is a good thread, but please, for the love of Mike, don't sticky it. Making a thread sticky is almost a guarantee that no one will read it anyway, but only be annoyed that it's there at the top, persistently in the way.

My opinion only... I understand there are notable exceptions (the untimely death of the one and only Gerry MacNutt comes to mind) but in most cases I find these stickies... ickies.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> BTW, I'm really glad ehMax started this thread. I've felt that the insult level has been getting worse in the last year or so and it's made me less inclined to participate.


I am inclined to agree - the level of decorum has bottomed out. It seems that if someone does not agree with something, they start flaming away with the personal attacks. This is not only limited to debates but to technical issues. Recently another user told me that I should be running Vista because he considers my Mac (which he has never seen or used) to be a waste of time, and considers Linux to be a kiddie system, all of which lead to personal attacks (which I ignored because they are a waste of my time).

This has happened multiple times on multiple issues - and really, if it continues, I'll just return to the work that my Macintoshes are made for. So it is good that the Mayor points this out, to clear the air of such nonsense, and return the Forums to what they were intended to be - Forums.

I do not expect people to agree with me, but I would expect a degree of decorum. People have their opinions, and that is why we have Forums. Perhaps people want to have the latest, fanciest and most expensive systems, and really, I have no problem with that.

I do not wish to have people put down the systems that serve my purposes just because of some personal vendetta against someone that is unknown except for the Avatar or something. My iMac may not be able to run Leopard - and really, I do not care about Leopard because I do not like any of the new features (except for Spaces which I would like). My Mac does the work it is assigned, does that work quite well, and suits my purpose.

I do not wish to hear any personal insults just because I choose not to have "the latest and greatest"; and I do not wish to hear lectures about Knuth because no matter what Knuth says, I do not wish to have my data ruined by poorly written operating systems cranked out by the fools at the Evil Empire. And I still do not want my data stored backwards because some engineer at Intel has a fetish - I like my PPC and hope that in the future, Jobs will see the light and return to the fold. And that is my opinion, with no personal attacks directed at any other users.

May the Mayor and the Moderators keep up the good work in providing a little space for Mac users to congregate and discuss things of common interest.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

EvanPitts said:


> the level of decorum has bottomed out.


Oh, I dunno. I haven't been around much lately but it seems to me that it was at an all time low back in 2003. That would be around the time that I first asked for there to be a line to cross.

Decorum on forums has ups and downs, but that's never been the problem with ehMac; the problem has always been the response to it. Don't get me wrong, I know that ehMax has always had the best intentions, I just think that this thread is long overdue.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Max said:


> It is a good thread, but please, for the love of Mike, don't sticky it. Making a thread sticky is almost a guarantee that no one will read it anyway, but only be annoyed that it's there at the top, persistently in the way.
> 
> My opinion only... I understand there are notable exceptions (the untimely death of the one and only Gerry MacNutt comes to mind) but in most cases I find these stickies... ickies.


Oh great, you had to bring Mike into it. Next you'll be saying "think of the children". 

But seriously, you're probably right about the sticky, it was just a thought off the top of my head.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Nahhh... don't sweat it... it's just my own finnicky response to the idea, that's all.

PS. Sorry to bring up Mike, really I am. Poor guy gets enough dumping on, doesn't he?


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

Max said:


> PS. Sorry to bring up Mike, really I am. Poor guy gets enough dumping on, doesn't he?


Well ya, except for Pete, that is.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

True enough. Everyone worries about poor Pete and his sake. But let's not overlook all those attention-grabbers, Tom, Dick and Harry.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

Each & every one of them too Max!


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

Heavens to Betsy. What the Sam hill?

Oh, interesting thread by the way.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

In my observation, it's the same few posters going at it for their own codependent amusement. In general, you tend to get back what you give out. A few times, people have tried to provoke me, but I don't take the bait. 

The fighting between members doesn't bother me much. CLICK-CLICK-CLICK and it goes away.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

MissGulch said:


> In my observation, it's the same few posters going at it for their own codependent amusement.


LOL! And a very astute observation it is. I love that line, "codependent amusement." Very apt for our times. May I borrow it?


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Max said:


> LOL! And a very astute observation it is. I love that line, "codependent amusement." Very apt for our times. May I borrow it?


Sure, for a small fee. :greedy:


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

MissGulch said:


> In my observation, it's the same few posters going at it for their own codependent amusement. In general, *you tend to get back what you give out*. A few times, people have tried to provoke me, but I don't take the bait.
> 
> The fighting between members doesn't bother me much. CLICK-CLICK-CLICK and it goes away.


Couldn't agree more MissGulch.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.


very appropriate for this thread in an ironic sort of way


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## med8or (Jan 18, 2002)

Just my two cents....I see this kind of arguement in different forms in many workplaces and organizations.

It has been mentioned in the past, that if someone doesn't like something said here....leave, that no one is forcing users to participate. I think that if we think in these terms, we haven't thought totally of the losses.

In my opinion, the strength of any kind of social platform (discussion boards being one form) is the wide variety of knowledge and opinions that are brought together. No two people have identical opinions and that's what makes this type of forum so wonderful.

I am concerned however, if the environment is such that it actually is pushing people away or creating reluctance to post. I also suspect, that we may not really know how much of a problem this really is? This is somewhat analogous to"Brain drain" that is a real reality for organization.

As I discuss in my mediations: don't attack the person, attack the problem (or the issue for debate). Attacking or blaming someone does very little to further resolving a problem (or in this case, expanding a debate.)

Be soft on the people (give the benefit of the doubt, no personal attacks, etc.,) and hard on the problem (use logic, rationale, resources/data and experience) on the problem.

JP


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

med8or said:


> Just my two cents....I see this kind of arguement in different forms in many workplaces and organizations.
> 
> It has been mentioned in the past, that if someone doesn't like something said here....leave, that no one is forcing users to participate. I think that if we think in these terms, we haven't thought totally of the losses.
> 
> ...


Wonderful post JP. Thanks. :clap: 

I do think level of interest in participating drops when threads are peppered with insults and jabs. I know its true for myself. 

My hopes is this discussion will help improve the atmosphere around ehMac.ca and encourage more members to get involved, and therefore making ehMac.ca a more interesting and informative place.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ehMax said:


> Wonderful post JP. Thanks. :clap:
> 
> I do think level of interest in participating drops when threads are peppered with insults and jabs. I know its true for myself.
> 
> My hopes is this discussion will help improve the atmosphere around ehMac.ca and encourage more members to get involved, and therefore making ehMac.ca a more interesting and informative place.


reminds me of the massive national hockey league expansion of the last few years

be careful of what you wish for, as you might just get it

milquetoast can be quite boring, but I guess that's why sit coms were invented

I'm going to google the words to "Kumbaya" so I can be prepared for the kinder and gentler ehmac.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> reminds me of the massive national hockey league expansion of the last few years
> 
> be careful of what you wish for, as you might just get it
> 
> ...


I wish your jabs at me and your continued attempts to derail this thread would would go away for awhile. 

*poof* 

Hey, wishes do come true.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ehMax said:


> Gerry was actually (in most cases) the prime example of what ehMac.ca should be. He would come out with very long, elaborate posts and debates and would argue his point of view fiercely, but in most cases, would never make it personal... and if he did, it was mostly tongue in cheek ribbing.


I’m actually worried that this is the example that you’d like us to emulate. Someone who you’d spew untruths, go one vilifying certain political parties, echo right-wing conservative talking points and basically lower any chance of debate. McNutt was a bully who intimidated newcomers. There was hardly any debate with him. 

Maybe we should remove the everything else and just talk about doxies and the Shang?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ehMax said:


> My hopes is this discussion will help improve the atmosphere around ehMac.ca and encourage more members to get involved, and therefore making ehMac.ca a more interesting and informative place.


I wish that if people are not interested in a particular thread to refrain from posting. 

I’ve seen it done when a newbie comments on something he/she likes only to be told the “when I was your age – insert comment on how things were so much better because it’s what I like”…


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> I’m actually worried that this is the example that you’d like us to emulate. Someone who you’d spew untruths, go one vilifying certain political parties, echo right-wing conservative talking points and basically lower any chance of debate. McNutt was a bully who intimidated newcomers. There was hardly any debate with him.
> 
> Maybe we should remove the everything else and just talk about doxies and the Shang?


I disagreed with 99.99% of the things MacNutt said or believed. The things he said were his beliefs and opinion. But (in most cases, as I stressed) he didn't resort to insults, and I would disagree that he was a bully. 

He wasn't perfect by any stretch, and you're probably right that he isn't the best example.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> I wish that if people are not interested in a particular thread to refrain from posting.


True. I've started several threads on something that is a *Huge* interest to me, the Toronto FC, only to get a repeated comment how watching soccer is like watching grass grow. 

We could do with less of the poo-poo platters.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ehMax said:


> I disagreed with 99.99% of the things MacNutt said or believed. *The things he said were his beliefs and opinion.* But (in most cases, as I stressed) he didn't resort to insults, and I would disagree that he was a bully.


So how does one debate when there is a drone from the "other side"?
In the past Beej has been able to shift my position, but at times there seems to be some that post in an omniscient manner that neither facts nor logic will change. Furthermore, there is an insistence to continue to post invalid information. 

BTW, I used to talk with MacNutt off ehmac, and he was quite different. Sure we still disagreed but his positions softened somewhat.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ehMax said:


> I wish your jabs at me and your continued attempts to derail this thread would would go away for awhile.
> 
> *poof*
> 
> Hey, wishes do come true.


:lmao:

You just made my day, sir. (Not the banning per se, but the post in general.)


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

ArtistSeries said:


> S
> In the past Beej has been able to shift my position,


Speaking of Beej, he hasn't posted in the last month... anyone know where he went?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Beej is on a self imposed exile from ehMac. I was in contact with him over the weekend and he is fine.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MasterBlaster said:


> How about a new forum category where anything goes?
> 
> Call it "Fight Club"


It's called Magic - Something Magic in the Air (and beejacon is sometimes spotted there)


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> So how does one debate when there is a drone from the "other side"?
> In the past Beej has been able to shift my position, but at times there seems to be some that post in an omniscient manner that neither facts nor logic will change. Furthermore, there is an insistence to continue to post invalid information.
> 
> BTW, I used to talk with MacNutt off ehmac, and he was quite different. Sure we still disagreed but his positions softened somewhat.


I think with your information about MacNutt you've hit on the nub of the issue. If we were all sitting in a cafe or pub and having these discussions, rather than behind anonymous IP addresses, I'm almost certain that the level of rancour would be much reduced. Sure some people might censor the expression of their ideas to avoid confrontation, but generally people would be careful to express their disagreements on positions without directly insulting each other. We would show each other basic respect, even if we disagreed. Anyone who starting yelling or fighting with each other would be a rare occurrence and most would agree that a doorman should escort them outside.

I live in a small community which has a good mix of political stripes from far right to far left. I never have any problem discussing issues with those who come from different sides of the fence from me as long since I try to do so with respect.

But I think you raise a valid concern in your original question. I'm not sure what the answer is although it is probably important to remember that the other side perceives a drone as well. Whatever the answer is I don't think that adding ad hominem attacks strengthen anyone's argument. I always have less regard for the points made by those who do employ personal attacks.

I think some people are missing the point that ehMax is trying to make. Showing respect for others doesn't make anyone's argument less strong or valid or mean that we have to hem in our political or philosophical opinions. I think it just means that we have to remember that there are actual human beings at the other end of those other IP addresses.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

> So how does one debate when there is a drone from the "other side"?


I am of the view the above comment is at the centre of all the personal attacks on this board.

If you know there is going to be "the drone form the other side" why engage it?

When I think of my post I try to use debating procedure of taking to Mr. Speaker. I phrase my comments as if I were in a public meeting, which this board is.

When posting comments mine are directed to someone with an open mind. The closed minded "opposition" will never be swayed even by the most eloquent and passionate argument. 

At the heart of a public meeting everyone "owns the meeting" and at a well run meeting everyone is equal and his/her comments are of value. 

EhMax is Mr. Speaker. He runs/controls the meeting. He rules what's out of order.

If you can't restrain yourself then there is always the ignore button. Cuts the length of threads and hard to be inflamed by what you can't read.

I have to say Mr. Mayor this is a good thread and very worthwhile.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

My personal views and opinions have changed a lot since I started ehMac.ca back in 1999. All changes of opinion and ideas have come from ideas that a member presented in a thoughtful, eloquent way. 

I can't recall one instance where my opinion has been swayed by someone who attacked me personally, was rude, or had an elitist attitude that they were right and knew it all, and if you didn't agree, you were an idiot. 

If I ever get to a point in my life, where I become constantly cantankerous, close-minded, and find my enjoyment in starting an argument with others for the sake of starting an argument for my amusement, I hope I'm taken out to pasture. 

Most internet forums out there that follow the status quo are full of self-righteous people just wanting to make themselves feel good by making others feel bad. 

I don't want to give off the wrong impression. I don't want a dull, boring, politically correct web site. I don't want a web site full of rules, and regulations. Just respect for fellow members (and myself), without the personal attacks on a members character, intelligence, business etc... Is that so crazy?

The original Steve Jobs Apple ads come to mind:

Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently.
They’re not fond of rules.
And they have no respect for the status quo.


> You can quote them


disagree with them, glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you can’t do is ignore them.
Because they change things.
They push the human race forward.
And while some see them as the crazy ones,
We see genius.
Because the people who are crazy enough to think
they can change the world,
Are the ones who do.

Keep being the crazy ones. Keep debating ideas and topics. Have open minds. Discuss. Respect. 

I wish I could find a way to articulate it better.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> ...If we were all sitting in a cafe or pub and having these discussions, rather than behind anonymous IP addresses, I'm almost certain that the level of rancour would be much reduced. Sure some people might censor the expression of their ideas to avoid confrontation, but generally people would be careful to express their disagreements on positions without directly insulting each other. We would show each other basic respect, even if we disagreed. Anyone who starting yelling or fighting with each other would be a rare occurrence and most would agree that a doorman should escort them outside.


GA, I've often wondered the same thing.

How many people from ehMac, in a face to face situation, would conduct themselves in a manner similar to how they conduct themselves on these boards and not expect repercussions? I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that explosion of emotions & subsequent results.

Film @ 11...


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

FeXL said:


> GA, I've often wondered the same thing.
> 
> How many people from ehMac, in a face to face situation, would conduct themselves in a manner similar to how they conduct themselves on these boards and not expect repercussions? I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that explosion of emotions & subsequent results.
> 
> Film @ 11...


What would be cool sometime, is to have a very, *VERY* big ehMac.ca get together for a day and meet face to face many of the members. 

Maybe a West Coast / Central / And East Coast meeting and we could link up via iChat.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

FeXL said:


> GA, I've often wondered the same thing.
> 
> How many people from ehMac, in a face to face situation, would conduct themselves in a manner similar to how they conduct themselves on these boards and not expect repercussions? I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that explosion of emotions & subsequent results.
> 
> Film @ 11...


The boys at Penny Arcade summed it up pretty nicely...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

FeXL said:


> How many people from ehMac, in a face to face situation, would conduct themselves in a manner similar to how they conduct themselves on these boards and not expect repercussions? I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that explosion of emotions & subsequent results.


I'm twice as rude in person.
I've also seen a few ehmacers in person - no blood was spilled but beer did flow.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> I'm twice as rude in person.
> I've also seen a few ehmacers in person - no blood was spilled but beer did flow.


A more admirable consequence I cannot imagine.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

ehMax said:


> ...get together for a day and meet face to face many of the members.


I'm not so sure this is a face you want to face. If the light's on, I've got trouble sneaking up on my water bowl...

If we did manage to connect somehow, I'd probably have to wear a face mask or sumthin'...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

FeXL said:


> I'm not so sure this is a face you want to face. If the light's on, I've got trouble sneaking up on my water bowl...
> 
> If we did manage to connect somehow, I'd probably have to wear a face mask or sumthin'...


I wore mine both times we had a brew!


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

SINC said:


> I wore mine both times we had a brew!


Yeah, but the hot pink bikini gave you away!


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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