# Mac OS X Lion With 250 New Features Available in July From Mac App Store



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Apple today announced that *Mac OS X Lion*, the eighth major release of the world's most advanced operating system with more than 250 new features and 3,000 new developer APIs, will be available to customers in July as a download from the Mac App Store for $29.99. Some of the amazing features in Lion include: new Multi-Touch gestures; system-wide support for full screen apps; Mission Control, an innovative view of everything running on your Mac; the Mac App Store, the best place to find and explore great software, built right into the OS; Launchpad, a new home for all your apps; and a completely redesigned Mail app. 

“The Mac has outpaced the PC industry every quarter for five years running and with OS X Lion we plan to keep extending our lead,” said Philip Schiller, Apple's senior vice president of Worldwide Product Marketing. “The best version of OS X yet, Lion is packed with innovative features such as new Multi-Touch gestures, system-wide support for full screen apps, and Mission Control for instantly accessing everything running on your Mac.”

New Multi-Touch gestures and fluid animations built into Lion let you interact directly with content on the screen for a more intuitive way to use your Mac. New gestures include momentum scrolling, tapping or pinching your fingers to zoom in on a web page or image, and swiping left or right to turn a page or switch between full screen apps. All Mac notebooks ship with Multi-Touch trackpads and desktop Macs can use Apple's Magic Trackpad.

Full screen apps take advantage of the entire display and are perfect for reading email, surfing the web or browsing photos, especially on a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro. With a single click your app fills the display and you can swipe from one window to another, between full screen apps, or back to your Desktop, Dashboard or Spaces without ever leaving full screen. iWork and iLife apps, as well as Safari, iTunes, Mail, FaceTime and others, all take advantage of Lion's system-wide support for full screen apps.

Mission Control combines Exposé, full screen apps, Dashboard and Spaces into one unified experience for a bird's eye view of every app and window running on your Mac. With a simple swipe, your desktop zooms out to display your open windows grouped by app, thumbnails of your full screen apps and your Dashboard, and allows you to instantly navigate anywhere with a tap.

The Mac App Store is built into Lion and is the best place to discover great new Mac apps, buy them with your iTunes account, download and install them. Apps automatically install directly to Launchpad, and with Lion's release, the Mac App Store will be able to deliver smaller “delta” app updates and new apps that can take advantage of features like In-App Purchase and Push Notifications.

Launchpad makes it easier than ever to find and launch any app. With a single Multi-Touch gesture, all your Mac apps are displayed in a stunning full screen layout. You can organize apps in any order or into folders and swipe through unlimited pages of apps to find the one you want.

Lion includes a completely redesigned Mail app with an elegant widescreen layout. The new Conversations feature groups related messages into an easily scrollable timeline, intelligently hiding repeated text so the conversation is easy to follow, and retaining graphics and attachments as they were originally sent. An incredibly powerful new search feature allows you to refine your search and suggests matches by person, subject and label as you type. Mail includes built-in support for Microsoft Exchange 2010.

Additional new features in Lion include:


Resume, which conveniently brings your apps back exactly how you left them when you restart your Mac or quit and relaunch an app;
Auto Save, which automatically and continuously saves your documents as you work;
Versions, which automatically records the history of your document as you create it, and gives you an easy way to browse, revert and even copy and paste from previous versions; and
AirDrop, which finds nearby Macs and automatically sets up a peer-to-peer wireless connection to make transferring files quick and easy.
Pricing & Availability 
Mac OS X Lion will be available in July as an upgrade to Mac OS X version 10.6 Snow Leopard® from the Mac App Store for $29.99 (CAN). Lion will be the easiest OS X upgrade and at about 4GB, it is the size of an HD movie from the iTunes Store. Mac OS X Lion Server requires Lion and will be available in July from the Mac App Store for $49.99 (CAN).

Lion requires an Intel-based Mac with a Core 2 Duo, i3, i5, i7 or Xeon processor and 2GB of RAM. The Lion upgrade can be installed on all your authorized personal Macs.

The Mac OS X Lion Up-To-Date upgrade is available at no additional charge via the Mac App Store to all customers who purchased a qualifying new Mac system from Apple or an Apple Authorized Reseller on or after June 6, 2011. Users must request their Up-To-Date upgrade within 30 days of purchase of their Mac computer. Customers who purchase a qualifying Mac between June 6, 2011 and the date when Lion is available in the Mac App Store will have 30 days from Lion's official release date to make a request.


----------



## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

So does this mean it wont be available as a disc like previous versions of OS X?


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

wonderings said:


> So does this mean it wont be available as a disc like previous versions of OS X?


Nope. Only through the Mac App Store.

Which also means people who are still on Leopard on Intel Machines (core2+) need to upgrade to Snow Leopard first - and then to Lion via the Mac App Store (as the App Store's not part of Leopard at all).


----------



## Chimpur (May 1, 2009)

fyrefly said:


> Nope. Only through the Mac App Store.
> 
> Which also means people who are still on Leopard on Intel Machines (core2+) need to upgrade to Snow Leopard first - and then to Lion via the Mac App Store (as the App Store's not part of Leopard at all).


I hope there is some way around this by letting us burn it from a disk image file to DVD. Or some other creative way to back up a 4GB OS download.


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

this is stupid. how are you supposed to boot from a disc that doesn't exist to verify/repair your hard drive? 

i also don't understand how tiger/leopard users are supposed to upgrade either. 

i also feel for people who have small caps and/or use rocket sticks etc for their connectivity. nothing about this decision strikes me as being cool


----------



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

*Mac OS X Lion Server for $49.99!*

Holy Cow!!! *Mac OS X Lion Server for $49* through the App Store!


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes, there are still many people around the world with limited download speeds. I see customers from time to time who travel to south America a lot with their macs and are always looking for software on discs because only dial-up is available. Maybe they will offer a little upgrade kiosk at Apple store for people who don't want to cut into their data limit.


----------



## Chimpur (May 1, 2009)

broad said:


> this is stupid. how are you supposed to boot from a disc that doesn't exist to verify/repair your hard drive?
> 
> i also don't understand how tiger/leopard users are supposed to upgrade either.
> 
> i also feel for people who have small caps and/or use rocket sticks etc for their connectivity. nothing about this decision strikes me as being cool


If you have a laptop, there is always free wifi available at libraries, public spaces, "restaurants" like McDonalds...


----------



## sharkman (Nov 26, 2002)

fyrefly said:


> Nope. Only through the Mac App Store.
> 
> Which also means people who are still on Leopard on Intel Machines (core2+) need to upgrade to Snow Leopard first - and then to Lion via the Mac App Store (as the App Store's not part of Leopard at all).


Yep. Still on Tiger here. No App store access for me.


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

I don't really feel that bad for tiger users. At $30 fro snow leopard and $30 for lion, getting to lion for $60 gives you quite a lot of added features when compared to tiger


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

broad said:


> this is stupid. how are you supposed to boot from a disc that doesn't exist to verify/repair your hard drive?


Lion creates a recovery partition on your drive - that's how it installs itself, and that's what you can boot from to verify/repair (though, yes, this is less useful if you whole drive is borked).

There also used to be TechTool Deluxe that came with Applecare - but I can't seem to find it on the site anymore (it went from bundled DVD-ROM to download post-AppleCare registration - but now seems to have vanished... weird.)



broad said:


> i also don't understand how tiger/leopard users are supposed to upgrade either.


Buy Snow Leopard. Install. Update. Launch Mac App Store. Voila.

Yep, it's cumbersome, but I really don't understand the outrage on Twitter this afternoon. You skipped an OS Release... and you want to be able to jump from Leopard to Lion for $29? Not likely.



broad said:


> i also feel for people who have small caps and/or use rocket sticks etc for their connectivity. nothing about this decision strikes me as being cool


Yeah, that is definitely an issue. But with Wifi being so ubiquitous - if you're really worried - spend an hour in Starbucks/Apple Store/McDonalds/Local Library and download it there.


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

fyrefly said:


> Lion creates a recovery partition on your drive - that's how it installs itself, and that's what you can boot from to verify/repair (though, yes, this is less useful if you whole drive is borked).


I haven't read anything about this. Do you have a link? This surprises me, I would have expected something different.


----------



## Chimpur (May 1, 2009)

Would that then take 4GB off of my boot drive? I sure hope this gets cleared up.


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

jwootton said:


> I haven't read anything about this. Do you have a link? This surprises me, I would have expected something different.


Mac OS X Lion Adds Recovery Partition Support [Gallery] | Cult of Mac

OS X 10.7 Lion’s Recovery Partition changes the way the OS repairs itself | 9 to 5 Mac



Chimpur said:


> Would that then take 4GB off of my boot drive? I sure hope this gets cleared up.


According to comments under the second link - the partition itself is about 750mb. I'm guessing maybe it's able to download the other files it needs in the BG.


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

broad said:


> this is stupid. how are you supposed to boot from a disc that doesn't exist to verify/repair your hard drive?
> 
> i also don't understand how tiger/leopard users are supposed to upgrade either.
> 
> i also feel for people who have small caps and/or use rocket sticks etc for their connectivity. nothing about this decision strikes me as being cool



+ + +, for all points mentioned.


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

pm-r said:


> + + +, for all points mentioned.




I'll also mention that Lion is $29.99 for all your computers. No more $$, family packs or weird Windows-like licence keys for multiple installs.

"Install on all authorized computers

When you purchase Lion from the Mac App Store, you can install it on all your authorized Mac computers. Just sign in to the Mac App Store from each Mac and download Lion from the Purchases list."


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

fyrefly said:


> Mac OS X Lion Adds Recovery Partition Support [Gallery] | Cult of Mac
> 
> OS X 10.7 Lion’s Recovery Partition changes the way the OS repairs itself | 9 to 5 Mac
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links. I like that it is less than a gig, it must be mostly tools and it would redownload lion if you were doing a reinstall, I guess


----------



## Chimpur (May 1, 2009)

fyrefly said:


> I'll also mention that Lion is $29.99 for all your computers. No more $$, family packs or weird Windows-like licence keys for multiple installs.
> 
> "Install on all authorized computers
> 
> When you purchase Lion from the Mac App Store, you can install it on all your authorized Mac computers. Just sign in to the Mac App Store from each Mac and download Lion from the Purchases list."


So 4GB dl per computer eh? Hmmm....


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah, if you have more that 2 computers in your house, that can take a bite out of your usage limit. I just got teksavvy cable and get 300gb a month, so not an issue here, but I know many people on rogers lite that only have 15gb a month


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

a recovery partition is great if you are having software trouble. those are pretty infrequent though, and as mentioned above, a recovery partition isnt going to do jack for you if your drive is pooched.


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

So you cant install a fresh copy of lion then? If I upgrade my hard drive, I guess I would have to clone the drive as there would be no convenient way to put a fresh copy of lion on a drive, that is a little annoying.


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> Buy Snow Leopard. Install. Update. Launch Mac App Store. Voila.


this seems so wasteful and illogical though. are they going to continue making 10.6 discs? that would sort of fly in the face of the way its been done in the past, and if thats the case why? if you're going to be producing physical discs for 10.6 why not just make 10.7 discs? 

seems moronic to me


----------



## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

fyrefly said:


> Mac OS X Lion Adds Recovery Partition Support [Gallery] | Cult of Mac
> 
> OS X 10.7 Lion’s Recovery Partition changes the way the OS repairs itself | 9 to 5 Mac
> 
> ...


Very nice. Thank you for that.
:clap:


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

broad said:


> a recovery partition is great if you are having software trouble. those are pretty infrequent though, and as mentioned above, a recovery partition isnt going to do jack for you if your drive is pooched.


I there isn't some provision available for installing the 'recovery disk' partition onto another drive, that would be real "rectal-cranial inversion" thinking!!!


----------



## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


----------



## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

jwootton said:


> I don't really feel that bad for tiger users. At $30 fro snow leopard and $30 for lion, getting to lion for $60 gives you quite a lot of added features when compared to tiger


You are forgetting it was $69 for Leopard. Not a massive chunk of change, but it's hard (I know) to shell out money for an upgrade you know will make a lot of your programs stop working.

Upgrade to Leopard was painless, did have a couple programs that needed to be repurchased but nothing to extreme.

Snow Leopard has made my perfectly good printer obsolete (thanks a lot, Apple and Lexmark, you are BOTH to blame) and made quicktime API performance into a joke.

Honestly, Lion could go either way...


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

Dennis Nedry said:


> I thought the recovery "partition" was actually a recovery image- ie, a DMG file, and that boot.efi had been modified to support booting from disk images? Ie, you're not booting from an actual partition per-say- but a bootable mini-system contained inside it's own DMG file somewhere in /System.
> 
> If the developer previews are any indication, then the Mac App Store is only used for _distribution_. What you get is a 4GB DMG file that *can* be written to a USB flash drive and *can* be installed onto an empty system (no existing OS). Of course you can just as well mount that DMG file locally and launch the installer from there inside your existing OS.
> 
> ...


I hope this is the case, but I fear that this was done just for the preview.


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

broad said:


> a recovery partition is great if you are having software trouble. those are pretty infrequent though, and as mentioned above, a recovery partition isnt going to do jack for you if your drive is pooched.


For sure - but the thing is that you should always have the recovery disks/Stick that came with your Mac. Therefore, if you want to do recovery, you don't need a Lion disc, just use the disk that came with your mac.


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

fyrefly said:


> For sure - but the thing is that you should always have the recovery disks/Stick that came with your Mac. Therefore, if you want to do recovery, you don't need a Lion disc, just use the disk that came with your mac.



But it sounds like these discs are not going to exist anymore. New macs will likely come pre-installed with the lion partition and no install disks.


----------



## greydoggie (Apr 21, 2009)

Wow I can't believe it's a cheap price again.

I would have guessed that they would sell the DVD in store for probably $35 or something more then it costs from the app store. I like having the discs that come with the computer when you buy them, but windows computers usually don't come with them either. With the HP in our house you can either make a dvd from the restore partition or you can buy the DVD from HP if you want it.


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

cap10subtext said:


> You are forgetting it was $69 for Leopard. Not a massive chunk of change, but it's hard (I know) to shell out money for an upgrade you know will make a lot of your programs stop working.
> 
> Upgrade to Leopard was painless, did have a couple programs that needed to be repurchased but nothing to extreme.
> 
> ...


leopard was $129 iirc


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

fyrefly said:


> For sure - but the thing is that you should always have the recovery disks/Stick that came with your Mac. Therefore, if you want to do recovery, you don't need a Lion disc, just use the disk that came with your mac.


yeah that sounds freaking awesome. restore to tiger, then install 10.6, then run updates to get to 10.6.6 to get app store, then download lion and install. 

8 hours later, kiss your day off goodbye!


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

fyrefly said:


> :
> 
> "Install on all authorized computers


What does authorized computers mean, or better - what is an "unauthorized" Mac?


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

broad said:


> i also feel for people who have small caps


At one location I have a cap of 2 Gigs, every Gig over is $8.00.
Two Gigs were more than enough for browsing and email...but suddenly no more???


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

jwootton said:


> But it sounds like these discs are not going to exist anymore. New macs will likely come pre-installed with the lion partition and no install disks.


I can't see them discontinuing the restore disks that are bundled in with new machines. If anything, they'll all go to the USB sticks that the new MacBook Airs have.



broad said:


> yeah that sounds freaking awesome. restore to tiger, then install 10.6, then run updates to get to 10.6.6 to get app store, then download lion and install.
> 
> 8 hours later, kiss your day off goodbye!


Or just do regular backups and restore from there. 

But yeah, it's cumbersome. But I'd say that if your drive's borked, and you didn't back anything up - you've got more to be worried about than a cumbersome re-install (AKA all your data is gone.)



krs said:


> What does authorized computers mean, or better - what is an "unauthorized" Mac?


"Authorized" means any computer you've signed into the Mac App Store on/"authorized" to use your Mac App Store account.

I do wonder if Lion might be far too easy to pirate... I in no way advocate piracy, but if I buy it for $29. Then sign in to the Mac App Store on my friend's computer and then download and update. And then sign out of the Mac App Store - it's not like Apple can just disable Lion? Who knows. Be interested to see how they sort that out.



krs said:


> At one location I have a cap of 2 Gigs, every Gig over is $8.00.
> Two Gigs were more than enough for browsing and email...but suddenly no more???


Browsing and email aren't gonna go anywhere for you. We're talking about a 1-time 4GB Lion download.

What do you do when software updates come out like 10.6.6 --> 10.6.7. Those can weigh heavily on a 2GB Cap.

And in your case, I would suggest what's already been pointed out in this thread - go to a Starbucks/McDonalds/Second Cup/etc... and use their wifi to download Lion.


----------



## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

fyrefly said:


> "Authorized" means any computer you've signed into the Mac App Store on/"authorized" to use your Mac App Store account.
> 
> I do wonder if Lion might be far too easy to pirate... I in no way advocate piracy, but if I buy it for $29. Then sign in to the Mac App Store on my friend's computer and then download and update. And then sign out of the Mac App Store - it's not like Apple can just disable Lion? Who knows. Be interested to see how they sort that out.


I read somewhere today that you can authorize up to 5 Macs on one account. No idea how they'd limit that to one household.



> Browsing and email aren't gonna go anywhere for you. We're talking about a 1-time 4GB Lion download.
> 
> What do you do when software updates come out like 10.6.6 --> 10.6.7. Those can weigh heavily on a 2GB Cap.
> 
> And in your case, I would suggest what's already been pointed out in this thread - go to a Starbucks/McDonalds/Second Cup/etc... and use their wifi to download Lion.


Yeah, that'll work really well for someone with an iMac or a Mac Pro! 

There are a few poor souls out there limited to using dial-up because of where they live (and no, they're not all in some isolated hamlet in the Yukon either - there are places in Southern Ontario with no cable and no DSL - my sister-in-law lives in one of them) who are really going to need to be able to get Lion on a disk. Not many, for sure - but some, and I certainly hope Apple will realize this and make provisions for them.


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

fyrefly said:


> Browsing and email aren't gonna go anywhere for you. We're talking about a 1-time 4GB Lion download.
> 
> What do you do when software updates come out like 10.6.6 --> 10.6.7. Those can weigh heavily on a 2GB Cap.
> 
> And in your case, I would suggest what's already been pointed out in this thread - go to a Starbucks/McDonalds/Second Cup/etc... and use their wifi to download Lion.


That assumes there are never any problems.
I just spent several days moving data to a new Mini. MA would never complete the migration for reasons still unknown but I started each new attempt by wiping the hard drive clean, reinstalling SL and trying MA again. Sounds with Lion I would have to download the OS each time.
And using a public WiFi hotspot sounds theoretically reasonable but would only work for laptops; it is also more awkward and cumbersome than upgrading to a new OS at home.

I guess we'll all have to wait how this all shakes out in the end - I'm actually more interested to find out about all the things that break


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm hoping that they tweak up their distribution methods a little bit before it hit's the streets ... if it's the same as the current "authorized" computers then I'll either have to change my apple ID on some of my computers or figure out some other way to workaround this as I have more than 5 computers. I haven't really used the Mac App store as of yet either as I was not looking forward to having to download the same things over and over again in their entirety because they couldn't be bothered putting in a proper update savvy system ... thankfully they are now saying they will have delta updates in the new setup, which is very welcome.

Also I do hope that we'll be able to easily put the Lion installer onto alternate media. First and foremost I do NOT want the OS to just randomly decide to adjust my partitions for me on any drive if I have a say in it, I also really don't care to have to sacrifice 4G of every boot drive with an OS install partition that I don't need. Now if they let me put it on a USB stick or an external drive and run from there I'll be happy enough. Also not really looking forward to having to download the same installer over and over again for all of my machines in my household. I also hope that they don't do anything silly like lock the installer down to your personal Apple ID, etc. I look after a great deal of machines and it would really really suck to have to have a different OS copy for each Apple ID as required.

BUT ... until it hits the streets (the public ones) we won't know for sure. That's the way it goes with Apple, always has.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I wonder how well it'll run flash 

seriously though, this is a pretty exciting update, we haven't had an update/feature fix in quite a while. I love the new scrollbar hide thing, make that ugly thing go away. I hope all other browsers follow suit (or is this something that affects everything?)


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

groovetube said:


> I wonder how well it'll run flash
> 
> seriously though, this is a pretty exciting update, we haven't had an update/feature fix in quite a while. I love the new scrollbar hide thing, make that ugly thing go away. I hope all other browsers follow suit (or is this something that affects everything?)


Don't you mean you'll wonder IF it will run flash? It looks like iOSX to me ... you never know what will happen!


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

that actually would be bad, since that would mean apple would then be controlling what apps you can, and cannot have on your desktop. It;s one thing say on a phone, or small mobile device, but your computer?


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

groovetube said:


> that actually would be bad, since that would mean apple would then be controlling what apps you can, and cannot have on your desktop. It;s one thing say on a phone, or small mobile device, but your computer?


It's bad for both. I understand the need on mobile, but I don't have to like it.


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

mguertin said:


> Don't you mean you'll wonder IF it will run flash? It looks like iOSX to me ... you never know what will happen!


probably wont out of the box hahaha


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

mguertin said:


> I'm hoping that they tweak up their distribution methods a little bit before it hit's the streets ... if it's the same as the current "authorized" computers then I'll either have to change my apple ID on some of my computers or figure out some other way to workaround this as I have more than 5 computers.


There's a bit of confusion about the # of Computers allowed, but some sites (TUAW among others I think) are saying they think it's 10 for the Max.



mguertin said:


> Also I do hope that we'll be able to easily put the Lion installer onto alternate media. First and foremost I do NOT want the OS to just randomly decide to adjust my partitions for me on any drive if I have a say in it, I also really don't care to have to sacrifice 4G of every boot drive with an OS install partition that I don't need. Now if they let me put it on a USB stick or an external drive and run from there I'll be happy enough.


The recovery partition is only ~750MB, not 4GB. And as Denis Nedry pointed out - it's very possibly just a .DMG that the EFI can expand and boot from when needed (therefore not actually re-partitioning your drive on you).

And I've gotta assume there *will* be a way to put the installer on alternate media. Doesn't mean it'll be easy or accessible to the public the way an installer DVD is, but all of the Developer Preview Builds so far have been downloadable and then can be put onto a USB stick or external hard drive.


----------



## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


----------



## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

Does anyoe else think that it's hilarious what a "big feature" full screen apps has become?

Really?

Hasn't that been available in Windows since v1.0?


----------



## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

I really hope there is some sort of disc option, or an installer you can burn to dvd and use. I have 6 macs at the office and would hate to have to download the 4 gig file on each one to install OS X. And again so many people do not have high speed internet, or have bandwidth limits. This would be a slow download for many and just a real pain. This is the first version of OS X I will be standing back and waiting till I need to install, not like all the other versions from 10.0 which I installed on day 1 of release.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

mac_geek said:


> Does anyoe else think that it's hilarious what a "big feature" full screen apps has become?
> 
> Really?
> 
> Hasn't that been available in Windows since v1.0?


It was the first thing I was confused about when I bought my first mac some 10 months ago. How in the hell do I get Safari to go full screen? The someone on here told me it sized to the size it needs be. A bunch of hog wash I say. It doesn't bother me now and I am used to it but glad its in there now.

On another note, the 10 Lion features shown yesterday was nothing new that wasn't already shown as a preview at the last conference which was either for the Music or for the iPad I forget.


----------



## Maxime (Sep 10, 2007)

Only available on the app store. 

So only people with Snow Leopard installed on their mac can upgrade to Lion?

If I recall correctly. I couldn't install the app store on my Mac Mini running 10.5.8. It said I needed Snow Leopard.


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Maxime said:


> Only available on the app store.
> 
> So only people with Snow Leopard installed on their mac can upgrade to Lion?
> 
> If I recall correctly. I couldn't install the app store on my Mac Mini running 10.5.8. It said I needed Snow Leopard.


Correct.


----------



## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

It really needs to be offered in both formats, digital download or on disc. Just a download is limiting, not sure why would move away from a disc for an OS install.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Here is an idea for Apple, put iMessage in Lion, so while I am working on my Mac I don't have to go and pick up my iOS device to talk to someone.


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

steviewhy said:


> Yes, but you have to have server 10.6.6 or higher up and running in order to install Lion Server and that costs $500. So; ~$550 is more accurate and definitely not worth it given that Lion Server is crippled compared to Server 10.6.
> 
> Apple - Mac OS X Lion - Lion Server - How to Buy


That page makes it seems like that yes ... but I don't know how accurate it is. That page is literally (copy wise) pretty much an exact duplicate of the how to upgrade to Lion (client) page, they just jammed in the word Server after "Lion" and "Snow Leopard". They don't have a clear requirements page for Lion Server yet so we'll have to wait and see. 

All indications to date have been that there will be no more discreet server OS and that it was just an add on to the regular client OS. Time will tell!

Of note I'm wondering if they haven't just done away with the flat out purchase of Lion OS (as opposed to upgrading). Their current methods don't cover anything but an upgrade ... assuming it will come installed on new machines and that 10.6.8+ users can upgrade ... but that leaves a large hole in the OS-o-sphere that they haven't yet addressed and I think they will have to at some point. Enforcing a 10.5->10.6->10.7 installation path is ludicrous and 10.5 was the last "full" OS that they really sold as a full OS, with 10.6 they pushed it as an upgrade for the most part.


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

Joker Eh said:


> Here is an idea for Apple, put iMessage in Lion, so while I am working on my Mac I don't have to go and pick up my iOS device to talk to someone.


Or at least the ability to do iMessage<->iChat. I'm with you on that one.


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

wonderings said:


> It really needs to be offered in both formats, digital download or on disc. Just a download is limiting, not sure why would move away from a disc for an OS install.


Has anyone sent off a note to Apple about this?


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Well, fresh from TUAW here's how to burn a Lion Boot Disk:

How to burn a Lion boot disc | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog

Pretty darn simple - just grab the "InstallESD.dmg" from inside the installer file that downloads from the App Store. Burn using DIsk Utility. Or Image it to a USB Stick or External HDD.

And from what I've seen on the Developer Builds at least - that InstallESD.dmg file should install on any Hard Drive (even a blank one) - just like the Snow Leopard boot disk before it.


----------



## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

fyrefly said:


> Well, fresh from TUAW here's how to burn a Lion Boot Disk:
> 
> How to burn a Lion boot disc | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog
> 
> ...


Hopefully it stays that way with the final release. I do download software, like CS5 from Adobe, I like getting it right away rather then waiting for it in the mail, but I always back it all up to disc and keep it handy for re installs and such. Much easier then always going back to download such large files when moving to a new computer or doing a clean install. It would really add to the install time, and right now I like that I can get a mac up and running really quick with a clean install.


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

I feel like this thread has gone on a bit of a tangent and we seem to only be talking about how to install, let's get back to the features of the new OS. Seems like people are interested in it at least. My best takes from it are:

1. Autosave, I really like the idea of not having to worry about saving anything. I have been pretty good at it, but this feature is pretty cool. I like the time machine esque versions, they could be very useful. I'm a little afraid that this is going to use a lot of Ram or reduce the life of the hard drive though.

2. Air drop: this seems great for easy file sharing with my family without having to tweak their file sharing settings and find passwords just to transfer pictures. This feature is so simple, but I look forward to using it.

3. Mail: I habent looked at many of the features of this refresh, but I have become a little frustrated with how mail has worked recently and welcome a refresh.

4. The resume feature is also such a simple concept that I will like at first I think, but I would also want a kill button that deosnt remember all of it.


----------



## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

I'll be buying it, I still have one last computer left in the house that will run Lion,
All the other computers will run OS 1xx to OS X 10.6xx

But I am tempted to "Cut the P.C. cord" and just use my iPhone and an iPad.

If you are interested...

Here is a list of supported Mac's for Lion


----------



## WestWeb (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm looking forward to trying out the new touch gestures for Lion on my MBP. Really, I'm looking forward to all the new features that should make working on a computer more streamlined. Everything from finally being able to resize windows on any edge and Mission Control, to Resume and Versions. 

Also, I never did believe that Lion server was going to be free, but a 90% reduction in price is still incredible. I'll likely get a copy of that to try out, eventually. 

Love that idea of iMessage<->iChat messaging. That would be really handy for us "work at home" types. In fact, I'd ditch Skype, and replace it with iChat in a heartbeat, if Apple ever pulled that one out of the bag.


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2011)

WestWeb said:


> Love that idea of iMessage<->iChat messaging. That would be really handy for us "work at home" types. In fact, I'd ditch Skype, and replace it with iChat in a heartbeat, if Apple ever pulled that one out of the bag.


Apple's whole messaging approach is extremely fragmented right now. iChat, Facetime, and now iMessage. Let's hope they pull it all together sooner than later. I would love to see iMessage incorporate all of the above and run on all devices ... since the computer has now been relegated to just a "device" I don't think that this is too much to ask of them.

It's odd too that Facetime was touted as a "standards based" app, but no one has done anything with it, including Apple. The "beta" of Facetime for mac fizzled out pretty quickly, not to mention that you had to pay for it, WTF?!?


----------



## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

WestWeb said:


> I'm looking forward to trying out the new touch gestures for Lion on my MBP. Really, I'm looking forward to all the new features that should make working on a computer more streamlined. Everything from finally being able to resize windows on any edge and Mission Control, to Resume and Versions.
> 
> Also, I never did believe that Lion server was going to be free, but a 90% reduction in price is still incredible. I'll likely get a copy of that to try out, eventually.
> 
> Love that idea of iMessage<->iChat messaging. That would be really handy for us "work at home" types. In fact, I'd ditch Skype, and replace it with iChat in a heartbeat, if Apple ever pulled that one out of the bag.


I could see Apple's sales of Bluetooth touchpad's skyrocketing after the introduction of Lion,
That's if the Apple Bluetooth touchpad will allow all those features on the desktop computer.

Although, I can't see why not.


----------



## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

mguertin said:


> Apple's whole messaging approach is extremely fragmented right now. iChat, Facetime, and now iMessage. Let's hope they pull it all together sooner than later. I would love to see iMessage incorporate all of the above and run on all devices ... since the computer has now been relegated to just a "device" I don't think that this is too much to ask of them.
> 
> It's odd too that Facetime was touted as a "standards based" app, but no one has done anything with it, including Apple. The "beta" of Facetime for mac fizzled out pretty quickly, not to mention that you had to pay for it, WTF?!?


Maybe Apple will come up with iMessageBook, A spin off of Facebook,
Except it would include FaceTime for video chat and use iCloud for international usage.


----------



## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

mguertin said:


> It's odd too that Facetime was touted as a "standards based" app, but no one has done anything with it, including Apple. The "beta" of Facetime for mac fizzled out pretty quickly, not to mention that you had to pay for it, WTF?!?


There have been announcements by Qik and Fring that they'd have Facetime support by year end.. We'll see how that evolves though.


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

mguertin said:


> It's odd too that Facetime was touted as a "standards based" app, but no one has done anything with it, including Apple. The "beta" of Facetime for mac fizzled out pretty quickly, not to mention that you had to pay for it, WTF?!?


The "Beta" was free - and if you downloaded it - it's still free. The "Full" version (and I've seen little/no difference between the two) is $0.99 in the App store. Dumb, tho, I agree.

Facetime will be included Free on Lion as well, so that should at least help adoption by new users and upgraders.



Lawrence said:


> I could see Apple's sales of Bluetooth touchpad's skyrocketing after the introduction of Lion,
> That's if the Apple Bluetooth touchpad will allow all those features on the desktop computer.


It will. I've seen Lion on a 27" iMac with a Magic Trackpad and it's amazing.

The new DP4 of Lion is even better - and so close to a GM.


----------



## lookitsmarc (Feb 2, 2008)

I just want to clear up some confusion about iMessage. Here is the article I am referencing.

iMessage is not an 'app' in the sense that you launch it and use it for chatting. It is more something that runs in the background. Basically, you go about your text messaging the same way as before, only this time iMessage detects when someone you are texting also has iMessage. When this occurs, your message goes through Apple rather than your carrier. What this means is it does not count towards your monthly SMS allowance (if you have one). Another perk is it allows for features such as "tell me when the recipient has read the message". It also allows you to send messages with an iPod touch or iPad without 3G using your Apple ID.


----------



## hya (May 16, 2011)

A problem!
OS X Lion will be downloaded via Mac App Store from Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan and Iran. In this summer I will travel to this countries! 

I have Apple ID and Credit Card and conected to App Store but I not sure that App Store working fine with this countries' IP!?


----------



## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

I have a 3.1 model white Macbook and I'm super disappointed that there won't be a DVD version of Lion available and that it is only available as an upgrade. I never liked upgrade installs for some reason and when I upgraded to Leopard, I backed up everything and went with a clean install + migrate.

Another lame thing is that all these multitouch gestures require a multi touch trackpad which only appeared one the macbook starting with the unibodies. However, on TUAV (or whatever the website is called), there is a means of modifying certain files to make a older "non multi touch" trackpad support multiple finger swiping and all that jazz. Aside from urging me to buy a more recent computer to make more $$$, why wouldn't apple include a software update that would make my trackpad multi touch since the hardware obviously seems to support it? I've always liked the fact that apple offered cool updates which made your hardware "better" but here they seem to leave it up to the user to use the console commands and go at it.

There you have it. I'm outraged! Outraged to the point that I won't include a smily face at the end of my post. Ok, I'll include one anyway but I'm still outraged tptptptp


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> However, on TUAV (or whatever the website is called), there is a means of modifying certain files to make a older "non multi touch" trackpad support multiple finger swiping and all that jazz.


link?


----------



## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

broad said:


> link?


Multi-touch coming to older MacBooks? Not so fast. | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog

It's at the bottom of the article. Actually, they got it from macrumors forum. You have to download a modified kext file and then go and move stuff and repair permissions. Dunno if I'd be game to try that.

I must say, it'd be a real bummer not to be able to use the really snazzy three finger slide in and out of full screen apps. I could always get an external multitouch trackpad but it's kinda lame to have a built in and external trackpad!

If this fix works and if apple makes it possible for me to clean install lion (even if I have to pay more for it), I'm gonna load up on some more RAM and go for it!


----------



## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Then again, if this really works, then why wouldn't big brother... I mean apple include it in a simple software update?


----------



## AquaAngel (Feb 16, 2007)

Nice, looking forward to have it installed on my Macpro this July.


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Multi-touch coming to older MacBooks? Not so fast. | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog
> 
> It's at the bottom of the article. Actually, they got it from macrumors forum. You have to download a modified kext file and then go and move stuff and repair permissions. Dunno if I'd be game to try that.
> 
> ...


from briefly scanning that article and the instructions it seems that what that is for is enabling multitouch gestures in 10.5.x *on machines that have the proper multitouch hardware*,. its my understanding that machines older than 2008 alu macbooks, late 2008 non unibody MBPS, unibody macbook pros and 2008 macbook airs (ie all plastic non unibody macbooks, 2.2/2.4Ghz MBPs and older) dont have the hardware to recognize more than 2 fingers. if they did then the multitouch gestures would work already, as the capability to use them is baked into the OS already. 

from everything ive read and seen there is no way to magically turn a non-mutlitouch trackpad into a multitouch...the hardware just isnt built for that


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

it even says 



> If you have a MacBook Pro manufactured before early 2008 or any plastic MacBook, then Snow Leopard or not, multi-touch isn't coming your way...


----------



## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

but it then says:



> ...But if you're like me and you do have one of the earlier multi-touch enabled machines, you don't have to wait for Snow Leopard to use the newer multi-touch gestures.


The part I seemeed to misinterpret was multi-touch enabled. So this is a "hack" for enabling the computers he listed to have multitouch before upgrading to Snow Leopard. I get it.

I hope I can reassing the 2 finger side swipe to show the desktop and switch between apps because I don't ever really nice to side scroll that much. Or even better, I wonder if a ctrl swipe or function swipe could work.

I guess I'm not gonna have all the cool functionality of Lion. There's no way for me to install it without installing a whole other OS first and then I only get some functionality. Here I go, I'm outraged again! I can't afford to spend 1000+$ to get a new lappy if my current MB works fine!


----------



## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

again, even if you install 10.6 and 10.7 you will not be able to use anything more than a 2 finger gesture. your machines trackpad doesnt recognize anything more than 2 fingers...bottom line. 

the sentence you quoted says "earlier multi-touch enabled machines". you do not have one of those. 

there's no point in being outraged. its a physical limitation based on the age of your hardware and what technology was available at the time when you bought your machine. when the macbook pros with LED screens came out do you think the owners of older CCFL models were outraged because apple couldnt flip some magic switch and add LED backlighting through software? 

it doesnt work like that...sorry


----------



## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

My big question still fuzzy is , once I have the LIon installer downloaded, will it install the complete OS on a clean hard disk? Or do i haveto go back and install all the old System and updates all over again and before i install LIon and then install the Lion updates.
This sounds horrible. My 2008 core 2 Mac came with 10.5, so i had to buy 10.6, install 10.5 again, install 10.6, update it, install 10,7 update it. Oye, this is incredibly painful, I just want to install 10.7 and Im willing to pay for the complete install , and i expect to do the updates, but for those of us on 3 year old Macs, this is almost not worth my time, I have been fairly happy with 10.5.8 and was thinking about going to 10.7, but only if the install is the full 10.7 and not all this insanity.. Anyone, will there be a complete OS installer of LION?


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

minnes said:


> My big question still fuzzy is , once I have the LIon installer downloaded, will it install the complete OS on a clean hard disk? ... ... Anyone, will there be a complete OS installer of LION?


From what I have read from some of the 'legit' Lion developer users, their Lion installers are complete 'stand-alone' installers and can be installed as such.

But that's for the developers versions and things can sure change with the final public release. ;-)


----------



## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

OK, Thanks PM-R, LION seems to be one of the more mysterious moves by Apple. I'll wait til they sell a physical Disc of lion to see how the fur flies.
I can wait 6 months if need be.


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

I can guarantee that I won't be one of the first to find out or install it as I'm still waiting on some of the Leopard OS version promises.

Let's see now... Apple advertised that Mac OS X Leopard 10.5 had 300+ new features... and followed with numerous updates, and then... Snow Leopard 10.6 was announced and released with " no new features" as an advertised advantage, with just some improvements that I and others are still waiting for with all its updates and then Apple announces some of 'all' the SL included "new features" that were included... Hmmm.

I suspect the same will happen with Mac OS Lion 10.7 and Apple's "Mac OS X Lion With 250+ New Features" announcements and it's following updates, and maybe when Mac OS 10.8 "Lioness" is released it will be the best Mac OS ever.

After all, isn't it the female lioness that does all the work and gets things working as they should??

Just a thought.... ;-)

Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard: the Ars Technica review has some interesting points on the pre-OS Lion versions.


----------



## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

I've used every version of MacOS from System 6.0.8 to 10.5, so i may do a skip over 10.6, that will be the first time I've skipped an OS version in 20 years. Well ok, I skipped 10.0 as well.


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

minnes said:


> OK, Thanks PM-R, LION seems to be one of the more mysterious moves by Apple. I'll wait til they sell a physical Disc of lion to see how the fur flies.
> I can wait 6 months if need be.


Methinks you're gonna be waiting longer than 6 months (AKA forever). Like the dropping of floppies, the intro of Thunderbolt and more, Apple's pushing people along in this regard. Software distribution will be via App Stores and the "cloud" in Apple's new vision. 

Heck, even the new Final Cut (which used to install off of SEVEN DVD's) is now gonna be distributed via the Mac App Store.



pm-r said:


> I can guarantee that I won't be one of the first to find out or install it as I'm still waiting on some of the Leopard OS version promises.
> 
> Let's see now... Apple advertised that Mac OS X Leopard 10.5 had 300+ new features... and followed with numerous updates, and then... Snow Leopard 10.6 was announced and released with " no new features" as an advertised advantage, with just some improvements that I and others are still waiting for with all its updates and then Apple announces some of 'all' the SL included "new features" that were included... Hmmm.
> 
> I suspect the same will happen with Mac OS Lion 10.7 and Apple's "Mac OS X Lion With 250+ New Features" announcements and it's following updates, and maybe when Mac OS 10.8 "Lioness" is released it will be the best Mac OS ever.


I'm genuinely curious as to what "features" of 10.5 and 10.6 you are still waiting for? The only thing I can think of is the ZFS file system which was hyped up and then dropped.


----------



## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

I might just get a 10.6 disc and be happy , since I expect in about 2 years I expect to get a new Mac. That way, I can avoid the whole kettle of snakes.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

I just don't understand their thinking on this. So you put something to full screen, all other monitors are useless? hopefully this is a bug.

Users With Multiple Monitors: Lion's Full-Screen Apps Are Not For You - MacRumors.com


----------



## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

Joker Eh said:


> I just don't understand theri thinking on this. So you put something to full screen, all other monitors are useless? hopefully this is a bug.
> 
> Users With Multiple Monitors: Lion's Full-Screen Apps Are Not For You - MacRumors.com


I agree, I don't get it, I run a four monitor setup at work so this would be useless to me.


----------



## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Joker Eh: I highly doubt it will be viewed as a bug to fix. It's more likely just an easy way to deal with the use cases of what can happen on those screens when another app is full screen. Full screen also hides the menu bar from the screenshots.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Chealion said:


> Joker Eh: I highly doubt it will be viewed as a bug to fix. It's more likely just an easy way to deal with the use cases of what can happen on those screens when another app is full screen. Full screen also hides the menu bar from the screenshots.


What use cases? Other apps open on another screen, oh my god who would ask for such a thing?

I have been using multiple monitors for a long time in Windows and just purchased a new monitor to go along with my 13" MBP. Which now will make either the extra monitor or the MBP a pper weight will I use the other. I still don't see the complication or issue or why this is a new feature. This is the only thing I have never understood about Apple and Mac, why the fight against Full Screen, why make me manually resize the windows I want to the full size of the screen. If I have 4 screens I want 4 FULLSCREEN apps with a simple click of a button on each window while inside the screen its on.

Its so simple. It should just work. Isn't that an Apple saying?


----------



## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Joker Eh said:


> What use cases? Other apps open on another screen, oh my god who would ask for such a thing?
> 
> I have been using multiple monitors for a long time in Windows and just purchased a new monitor to go along with my 13" MBP. Which now will make either the extra monitor or the MBP a pper weight will I use the other. I still don't see the complication or issue or why this is a new feature. This is the only thing I have never understood about Apple and Mac, why the fight against Full Screen, why make me manually resize the windows I want to the full size of the screen. If I have 4 screens I want 4 FULLSCREEN apps with a simple click of a button on each window while inside the screen its on.
> 
> Its so simple. It should just work. Isn't that an Apple saying?


The use cases I can think of are if one app is full screen, how does one switch to the other application and access it's menu bar? Will users freak out because all the standard chrome has been hidden on the full screen monitor? What to do when switching screens - do the windows on the second screen with the full screen app stay on that screen?

I agree with you entirely that the fact they aren't making it usable sucks - each of the use cases I came up with can be easily answered but it looks like Apple chose to avoid them by making it so "full screen = one app mode". As a multiple monitor user I'm never going to use the feature unless I'm mobile on my laptop.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

Chealion said:


> The use cases I can think of are if one app is full screen, how does one switch to the other application and access it's menu bar? Will users freak out because all the standard chrome has been hidden on the full screen monitor? What to do when switching screens - do the windows on the second screen with the full screen app stay on that screen?
> 
> I agree with you entirely that the fact they aren't making it usable sucks - each of the use cases I came up with can be easily answered but it looks like Apple chose to avoid them by making it so "full screen = one app mode". As a multiple monitor user I'm never going to use the feature unless I'm mobile on my laptop.


Yep I have to agree with this as well. Each new release it seems more and more like they are catering more towards newbie home users than power users. I really don't like the way they seem to have approached this full screen == one app deal, makes it useless for me unless again, as you say, I'm portable and on my MBP.

Apple should have taken note from apps like Adobe Lightroom which does a very nice full screen implementation without messing with the other screens, and in fact it can itself use multiple full screens.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

Also worth noting this full screen approach is likely also done with their provided SDK, which means that any developer utilizing this full screen == one app approach will provide just that, more useless full screen apps for anyone with multiple monitors  Apple does make some pretty bad UI decisions sometimes. It really seems like we're getting iOSX 1.0 instead of OSX 10.7. It's fine to "learn" from things they did in iOS, but I really don't feel the need to copy them on my desktop -- they were designed for completely different uses and with completely different input devices.


----------



## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

broad said:


> again, even if you install 10.6 and 10.7 you will not be able to use anything more than a 2 finger gesture. your machines trackpad doesnt recognize anything more than 2 fingers...bottom line.
> 
> the sentence you quoted says "earlier multi-touch enabled machines". you do not have one of those.
> 
> ...


Clearly, reading comprehension wasn't your strongest subject in school. Reread my post and then maybe you'll realize that you are arguing a point that I just acknowledged. What I'm saying is that maybe I can tweak the preferences so that the three finger gestures can me reassigned to a two finger swipe. Or else it might have to be a keystroke (less cool).

Also, it seems you don't read too well into sarcasm. Of course I'm not outraged. It's just that the more I read into Lion, the more it seems that apple is making it impossible for me to run it on my machine. I'll chalk up all the cool multi touch gestures to "progress" but forcing me to install Snow Leopard and doing an upgrade install will have me say F* it altogether.

I'll just wait a couple of years until my logic board croaks and then I'll get an iPad 8, an iphone 10 and macbook air with 4 terabytes of RAM running on OS X velociraptor. That's right, velociraptors. Dinosaurs are the future of Mac OS. You heard it here first.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

minnes said:


> My 2008 core 2 Mac came with 10.5, so i had to buy 10.6, install 10.5 again, install 10.6, update it, install 10,7 update it.


Why did you have to do that? 10.6 was never an "update." All you have to do is install 10.6 once.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

minnes said:


> I've used every version of MacOS from System 6.0.8 to 10.5, so i may do a skip over 10.6, that will be the first time I've skipped an OS version in 20 years. Well ok, I skipped 10.0 as well.


Did you run System 7 Pro? Complete with PowerTalk server?


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2011)

hayesk said:


> Did you run System 7 Pro? Complete with PowerTalk server?


I ran System 7 Pro  I also ran (and still can run) AIX on the only Mac era Apple machine that shipped that was incapable of running MacOS (Apple Network Server). I also ran a hacked up version of System 7 Pro in A/UX (in the emulator) on my Iicx w/ a two page display.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

*Resume Feature: A Cautionary Tale*

Thinking about how Lion is some sort of merger of between OSX and iOS this is one feature that maybe should be given a little more thought and adjustment.

OS X Lion's Resume Feature: A Cautionary Tale - MacRumors.com



> Jeremy Laurenson, however, writes about a potentially embarrassing situation he ran into while running OS X Lion. Laurenson reports that he and his wife had been watching his wife's delivery in Quicktime Player and later quit the application. In OS X Lion, this saved the state of the video and windows, leaving him a surprise when he later launched a movie for a colleague:
> Imagine my surprise (and luckily nothing crazy was on screen) when I double-clicked to open a different video file to show a colleague and the ole delivery video popped right up as well.


----------



## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

mguertin said:


> Also worth noting this full screen approach is likely also done with their provided SDK, which means that any developer utilizing this full screen == one app approach will provide just that, more useless full screen apps for anyone with multiple monitors  Apple does make some pretty bad UI decisions sometimes. It really seems like we're getting iOSX 1.0 instead of OSX 10.7. It's fine to "learn" from things they did in iOS, but I really don't feel the need to copy them on my desktop -- they were designed for completely different uses and with completely different input devices.


it also makes me thing that a iMac touch is coming soon


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2011)

jeepguy said:


> it also makes me thing that a iMac touch is coming soon


I dunno about that one, ergonomically it doesn't make sense. It would suck to have to reach up and touch your screen all day long to get things done. They would be good for kiosk style applications, but other than that I don't really see it coming to a desktop near you.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

mguertin said:


> I dunno about that one, ergonomically it doesn't make sense. It would suck to have to reach up and touch your screen all day long to get things done. They would be good for kiosk style applications, but other than that I don't really see it coming to a desktop near you.


How about where the screen flips over and you can use it as a touch on a flat surface, but when you want a kayboard you flip it back and open it.

I think its going to happen with the Air.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Joker Eh said:


> How about where the screen flips over and you can use it as a touch on a flat surface, but when you want a kayboard you flip it back and open it.
> 
> I think its going to happen with the Air.


They've had PC tablets like this for a while. They didn't sell well. I don't expect Apple to do that - too gimmicky.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

hayesk said:


> They've had PC tablets like this for a while. They didn't sell well. I don't expect Apple to do that - too gimmicky.


Jobs has been quoted as saying



> "There are no plans to make a tablet," Jobs was quoted saying to Mossberg. "It turns out people want keyboards. ... We look at the tablet, and we think it is going to fail."


So put nothing past Apple. I think it is a natural progression for the Macbook Air.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

hayesk said:


> They've had PC tablets like this for a while. They didn't sell well. I don't expect Apple to do that - too gimmicky.


I agree. Likely, laptops will eventually just become tablets with the physical keyboard docking like the ipad is now. Hopefully though iOS will move more towards os x instead of the other way around.

I wouldn't miss the optical at all, I rarely if ever use mine, I'd be fine with a small external at home or office for the few times I do use it. Optical is so yesterday...


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

mguertin said:


> Also worth noting this full screen approach is likely also done with their provided SDK, which means that any developer utilizing this full screen == one app approach will provide just that, more useless full screen apps for anyone with multiple monitors  Apple does make some pretty bad UI decisions sometimes. It really seems like we're getting iOSX 1.0 instead of OSX 10.7. It's fine to "learn" from things they did in iOS, but I really don't feel the need to copy them on my desktop -- they were designed for completely different uses and with completely different input devices.


I think you're right about the fact that Tablets and desktops were designed for different uses and with completely different input devices.

Apple's pretty much said so - and there's been much made of Windows 8's proposed way of having a "touch layer"/widget-like startup and then being able to switch over to the full OS if you want it. Windows 8 is also being designed as one OS to run on both Tablets and PCs.

I tend to agree with the people who believe this approach is misguided. Apple's keeping iOS and Lion separate for a reason. Apple has patents for Touch screen enabled Macs and MacBooks... but they haven't used them yet. Time will tell if this changes, but Apple's clearly in favour of Magic Trackpad-like gestures for the desktop/laptop instead of touch-screen devices.

Your comments about the full screen apps tho -- I agree that it's dumb of Apple to disable the other screens software-wise when apps are launched into full-screen. Hopefully that's rectified in the GM build or in a 10.7.1 or 10.7.2 update...

However, it's not like all Applications will auto-launch into full-screen mode. Full screen has to be enabled by the user and then manually triggered by the user each time. So it's still a choice the user can make (unlike iOS where everything is natively full-screen all the time).



jeepguy said:


> it also makes me thing that a iMac touch is coming soon





mguertin said:


> I dunno about that one, ergonomically it doesn't make sense. It would suck to have to reach up and touch your screen all day long to get things done. They would be good for kiosk style applications, but other than that I don't really see it coming to a desktop near you.


You're right, ergonomically, it's hard to hold out your hand all day, touching a vertically placed screen. But Apple's solution (so far, as evidenced by their patents) is to have an iMac that works as a desktop normally, but then "flattens" down to be more of a giant stationary tablet:









SOURCE: The Mother Lode: Welcome to the iMac Touch - Patently Apple

Not sure it'll ever see the light of day, but this definitely shows that Apple's thinking about it.


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2011)

I still really don't think that they are going to come out with an iMac touch anytime soon, with or without any kind of tilt screen on it. It's just ergonomically bad in all senses. Holding your arms up to interact with a screen is bad, looking down at the table top for your monitor is bad, and having to move the screen in between both just do what you can do now with a standard setup is even worse. yes they have a patent they've applied for with it (a long time ago I might add) but it wouldn't be the first time that Apple didn't make something out of one of their patents ... at that point what's the difference between an iMac touch and just putting a big iPad on a swivel mount?


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2011)

Also just wanted to add that as an input device substitute (aka virtual keyboard) a touch screen device is also still pretty terrible. Anything I've read about good computer interfaces always state one important thing ... we _need_ tactile feedback for it to function well. All of those Minority Report type interfaces floating in the air and such just don't work in real life, and nether does a touch screen keyboard. About the only way i see things sort of combining here is a "touch screen" trackpad approach (like the Cintiq style tablets) where you can interact by touching things that you see right on the surface (but still controlling a standard type screen).


----------



## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

mguertin said:


> Also just wanted to add that as an input device substitute (aka virtual keyboard) a touch screen device is also still pretty terrible. Anything I've read about good computer interfaces always state one important thing ... we _need_ tactile feedback for it to function well. All of those Minority Report type interfaces floating in the air and such just don't work in real life, and nether does a touch screen keyboard. About the only way i see things sort of combining here is a "touch screen" trackpad approach (like the Cintiq style tablets) where you can interact by touching things that you see right on the surface (but still controlling a standard type screen).


Actually you would be surprised what kind of real work you could do this way, when I worked for Ford Motor Company back in the early 80's I did design work on a Pr1me Lundy workstation, it used a light pen, and you pointed and clicked at the screen. 



> Prime was heavily involved with Ford’s internal computer-aided design (CAD) product, Product Design Graphics System (PDGS). It used a vectorscope from Lundy for a display. At one time in 1980s it was the world largest integrated CAD system, spanning the US, Japan (Mazda was Ford's subsidiary/partner), and Germany. The creators of PDGS, located in building #3 of Fords Dearborn design headquarters, began working on the concept of parametrically driven geometry, which led to a PRIMEDesign system.


It was later replaced with HP Apollo series workstations running SDRC ideas with a mouse and keyboard.


----------



## Guest (Jun 21, 2011)

jeepguy said:


> Actually you would be surprised what kind of real work you could do this way, when I worked for Ford Motor Company back in the early 80's I did design work on a Pr1me Lundy workstation, it used a light pen, and you pointed and clicked at the screen.


It depends what you're doing I suppose. Design work with a pen is not a far stretch .. but on a different note I'd hate to try and pick out a single point in a complex line in illustrator with my finger on a touch screen.


----------



## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

mguertin said:


> It depends what you're doing I suppose. Design work with a pen is not a far stretch .. but on a different note I'd hate to try and pick out a single point in a complex line in illustrator with my finger on a touch screen.


I agree, fingers are not the best tools, this is one of the reasons I really wished apple would have made it a hybrid screen with an active pen.


----------



## jwootton (Dec 4, 2009)

Just saw this over at Macrumors. An apparent email from Steve Jobs. A clean install on a new drive will require on install of snow leopard first. Seems like there won't be a way to make a backup disc of lion. Hopefully this email is a hoax, but I fear this might actually be the case

Lion Clean Install Requires Snow Leopard Disk? [Updated] - Mac Rumors


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

jwootton said:


> Just saw this over at Macrumors. An apparent email from Steve Jobs. A clean install on a new drive will require on install of snow leopard first. Seems like there won't be a way to make a backup disc of lion. Hopefully this email is a hoax, but I fear this might actually be the case
> 
> Lion Clean Install Requires Snow Leopard Disk? [Updated] - Mac Rumors


This reminds me of installing Leopard 10.5.x onto our then working but "unsupported" 733 GHz G4 Quicksilver Mac a few years ago — not possible according to Apple, but quite doable if one had some extra drives available and a good cloning application available etc.

But I guess we'll just have to wait and see and then look into some other possible options once again with Apple's latest OS when it's released.


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

pm-r said:


> This reminds me of installing Leopard 10.5.x onto our then working but "unsupported" 733 GHz G4 Quicksilver Mac...


Unsupported doesn't mean 'won't install.' It means just that - unsupported. If you get it installed and it's buggy as all ever, as expected, you're SOL.


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Lars said:


> Unsupported doesn't mean 'won't install.' It means just that - unsupported. If you get it installed and it's buggy as all ever, as expected, you're SOL.


You're correct, but I was referring to the 'normal' 10.5 Mac install when attempting to do such an install on such a Mac model, only to be met with the Apple's 'install checker' announcement that "You cannot install this OS System on this Mac".

I guess we'll have to wait and see if the 10.7 "installer" does the same sort of thing without 10.6.8 etc. being already installed on the volume one wants to install it on.

Even if so, I'm sure some 'work-around' install methods will surface quickly after the official public Lion 10.7 release if such is to be the case.


----------



## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

None of this makes sense to me. It's like telling Windows users that they have to install Vista before they can install Win7. If Lion is supposed to be a full, standalone OS, why does it behave like an incremental update? Has Apple lost its mind? Or are all these emails purporting to be from Steve just a hoax?


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Paddy said:


> If Lion is supposed to be a full, standalone OS, why does it behave like an incremental update? Has Apple lost its mind?


Because it's available from the App Store which only comes with 10.6.


----------



## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

Lars said:


> Because it's available from the App Store which only comes with 10.6.


True, but that doesn't resolve the issue of trying to install from scratch on a new drive, or leave any opportunity for those who decided to skip 10.6 to go directly to 10.7. Clearly there are quite a few unanswered questions and much confusion, similar to the confusion surrounding iCloud and what it will and won't do.

The cynic in me is starting to wonder if this is all just a carefully orchestrated marketing ploy to keep people talking about Lion and iCloud right up until they're finally released. Nothing like a whole lot of free advertising.


----------



## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Paddy said:


> True, but that doesn't resolve the issue of trying to install from scratch on a new drive, or leave any opportunity for those who decided to skip 10.6 to go directly to 10.7.


Maybe I'm being cold, but I have little sympathy for those still on 10.5 who bemoan having to pay for 10.6 and then 10.7.

Did people really think they could "ignore" 10.6 and then just get 10.7 for $29? It's pretty ridiculous, imho, when Windows updates cost at least ~$100. Just buy 10.6 ($35) and then upgrade to 10.7. It's not that hard. Yes, it's time consuming. But lots of the people I see are bemoaning the $$ issue first.

Also, I've seen each one of the developer builds install as a fresh OS on a fresh HD. So, at least so far, the "InstallESD.dmg" that one would burn to a disc to keep as a backup after downloading Lion works on blank/fresh HDs.


----------



## Newf709 (Feb 4, 2008)

Check out this website showing you how to burn a Lion disc.
Creating a bootable OS X 10.7 Lion USB stick and DVD


----------



## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

I just have to say ... $29 bucks sounded like a great deal until you factor in the $200 Photoshop upgrade. Sorry, no deal, at least not at the moment.


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

fyrefly said:


> Maybe I'm being cold, but I have little sympathy for those still on 10.5 who bemoan having to pay for 10.6 and then 10.7.
> 
> Did people really think they could "ignore" 10.6 and then just get 10.7 for $29? ....


Maybe this is Apple's new method to bypass those who went directly from Tiger straight to Snow Leopard and bypassed any Leopard install for the total cost of $29.00??


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

pm-r said:


> Maybe this is Apple's new method to bypass those who went directly from Tiger straight to Snow Leopard and bypassed any Leopard install for the total cost of $29.00??


Or because there's no retail disc for Lion and the Mac App Store is only available on 10.6 where Lion will be sold. Just stating the obvious while the rest of you build conspiracy theories.


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Ooops, I forgot the tongue-in-cheek and/or the winking-smiley with my post. No conspiracy theory intended or meant.

Besides, I believe only the 2006 and 2007 Intel Macs came with any 10.4.x OS installed, and that's a long time to wait to install a recent $29.00 upgrade OS.


----------



## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

Lars said:


> Or because there's no retail disc for Lion and the Mac App Store is only available on 10.6 where Lion will be sold. Just stating the obvious while the rest of you build conspiracy theories.


No conspiracy theories here, either Lars. Just finding it interesting that Apple has gone this route, is all. Snow Leopard was never touted as being a huge leap into the future as far as features went - more of a speed-enhancement etc. as it became Intel-only and hence the $29 price tag - or so I understood at the time.

Lion is supposedly a full update as we saw with the 10.3 to 10.4, 10.4 to 10.5 updates. But the no-disk/online only, must-have-10.6 installed first requirement makes it a somewhat different beast. I'm not complaining about the price - nor do I feel sorry for those who are complaining that they have to pay $29 to update from 10.5 to 10.6, before they can get 10.7; it just seems oddly restrictive and the download-only option will be a barrier for some who are stuck on dial-up or with very low bandwidth.


----------



## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

Paddy said:


> it just seems oddly restrictive and the download-only option will be a barrier for some who are stuck on dial-up or with very low bandwidth.


Thats what I don't like about it. I like to have options, online or order a disc, but the choice is mine. I would pay more to have it on disc, and I don't want Lion making a partition on my hard drive. I heard there is a way to burn a bootable disc from the app store download of Lion, hopefully this can be done before installing it. I wont be installing this on release day and probably will just wait, for the first time ever since 10.0, until I have to upgrade to Lion, no killer features in it for me, and the download only option is not something I am fond of.


----------



## Guest (Jun 24, 2011)

I personally think Apple is just milking all this publicity for what they can get out of it and when it actually hits the streets they will announce something like "We have listened to you and will be providing a means of doing this without an internet connection and without having to install a previous OS first." If they said that now they would lose out on a gazillion conversations like this one where everyone is all aflutter about Apple. It's one way to keep up the "buzz" while they feverishly try to fix all the last bugs and get it out the door.


----------



## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

mguertin said:


> I personally think Apple is just milking all this publicity for what they can get out of it and when it actually hits the streets they will announce something like "We have listened to you and will be providing a means of doing this without an internet connection and without having to install a previous OS first." If they said that now they would lose out on a gazillion conversations like this one where everyone is all aflutter about Apple. It's one way to keep up the "buzz" while they feverishly try to fix all the last bugs and get it out the door.


 I noted my similar suspicions a few pages back...



> The cynic in me is starting to wonder if this is all just a carefully orchestrated marketing ploy to keep people talking about Lion and iCloud right up until they're finally released. Nothing like a whole lot of free advertising.


Time will tell.


----------



## Guest (Jun 25, 2011)

I think with all this hype that's currently going on for them, both good and bad, that they needed to hold something back until release day so it makes an even bigger "splash" when it hits the app store. Let's just hope this whole "playing with everyone's partitions on their hard drive" approach was well tested or there's gonna be a lot of screaming about losing everything.

Apple has to have SOME sort of bootable media strategy in place, them not doing so just makes no sense at all. Maybe they are trying to hold out for "netboot in iCloud" speeds for all of our installation needs .... hmmmm ....


----------



## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

I would have no problem paying $50-60 for a full install like the 10.5 disk. For those on 10.5, this makes us feel second class by having to go through hoops to get the new OS. Yep price is right, but very inconvenient. I just can't see them selling 10.6 for the indefinite future. Something will be done, this won't stand.
Also worth noting, that our bandwidth has increased in COst in the last few years, I'm sure that in the past, Bell and the Cable companies didnt always et limit, Bell suckered me at one point by making me switch packages, now I pay more for less.


----------



## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

minnes said:


> Also worth noting, that our bandwidth has increased in COst in the last few years, I'm sure that in the past, Bell and the Cable companies didnt always et limit, Bell suckered me at one point by making me switch packages, now I pay more for less.


You always have the option to not use Bell, and to use a provider with much higher caps - or none at all.

My internet has price has stayed the same for ages, and I get more bandwidth now than I did when I first signed up.


----------



## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

The local cable co Cogeco is the exact same price with similar cap, 
Not sure if Primus has caps.


----------



## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

John Clay said:


> You always have the option to not use Bell, and to use a provider with much higher caps - or none at all.
> 
> My internet has price has stayed the same for ages, and I get more bandwidth now than I did when I first signed up.


You're assuming that everyone _has_ choices. Some people don't - it's dial-up or dial-up. Or DSL or dial-up.


----------



## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

Paddy said:


> You're assuming that everyone _has_ choices. Some people don't - it's dial-up or dial-up. Or DSL or dial-up.


I have choices and they all collude to stick it to the consumer!
I can save money if i want a lot less service, but nothing unlimited unless I move.


----------



## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

I just checked Primus and they do have unlimited bandwidth at the same or slightly higher prices than I pay now, so hmmm, a very slight advantage to switch.


----------

