# Which 20" LCD would you buy for an imac?



## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

I am considering the option to add a larger LCD to my 17 "imac. I am looking at the LG L204WT for $269.00 at Future Shop and the Samsung 206BW for $359.99

Any suggestions on which brand is better. Also how do I tell if these are standard TN panels or S-IPS, or should I just stop reading info on the net. My tired eyes appreciate the help.


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

You can change the LCD on an iMac???


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

Hmm ok, I meant to add to the side with the Mini DVI adapter, I find the 17" too cramped and hard on my eyes


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

Although I think that the L204 is a good monitor and outstanding for gaming because of its ultra-quick response time, its viewing angle is just so poor that I can no longer recommend it. The contrast is extremely good and the whites REALLY white, though. There is also little backlight bleeding and solid color across the spectrum. Although it's a TN panel, I believe, from my eyes, that it is a true 8-bit color display, not 6-bit + dithering. 

I'd recommend an equivalent Samsung with a better viewing angle or the current Dell, which many admit is clearly better for everything other than gaming.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

I am definitely not a gamer, except maybe Bugdom from the old days..What I use it for is light photoshop and video editing, and of course internet. Are most of the Samsungs 8 bit? It's new news to me that most LCD's dither to get the full colour range of 16.2 million colours. Anyone know if the imacs dither?


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

Can you do dual-monitor with an iMac, or does it disable the primary screen to send the output to another? 

If it disables, wouldn't it be counter-productive? Sell the 17" iMac and get a 20 or 24-incher....


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## Digital_Gary (Sep 18, 2003)

Intel iMac's can do extended desktop. Some PowerPC iMacs can be hacked to do the same but out of the box, if they had video out, it was for mirroring only.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

vapour said:


> I am considering the option to add a larger LCD to my 17 "imac. I am looking at the LG L204WT for $269.00 at Future Shop and the Samsung 206BW for $359.99
> 
> Any suggestions on which brand is better. Also how do I tell if these are standard TN panels or S-IPS, or should I just stop reading info on the net. My tired eyes appreciate the help.


As for that money you should be able to get a good quality 22-inch wide screen.
An Acer one is $260 right now
Anitec.ca - Acer AL2216Wbd (Black) 22" Widescreen LCD
but there are others in the $270 to $360 price range.

For 6 vs 8-bit colour, just pull up a detailed spec sheet on google. I once had the same Dell LCD side-by-side, one with a 6-bit panel and the other with an 8-bit panel. Although the 6-bit panel looked fine by itself, when you had them side by side you could definitely tell the difference.

And before someone wonders - yes, Dell was selling the exact same monitor with two different panels - one from AUO and the other from Samsung.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

Aren't all of the 22" LCDs TN panel based?


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## UnleashedLive (Aug 9, 2004)

I use the L204WT as an external for my MBP and love it! I use it for Photography, I find the colours are much better than the MBP.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

mikef said:


> Aren't all of the 22" LCDs TN panel based?


As opposed to what? S-IPS?

I think S-IPS is in a totally different price category.

The Acer 22-inch I linked to above is an 8-bit panel. Somewhere I read that all TN panels are 6-bit, but I don't know if that is really true.

I think with an LCD you have to check it out in the store nad try the settings/features important to you. Just looking at specs won't cut it.
I wanted one that scaled well to a different than native resolution - there was a huge difference between LCD monitors how well tat worked - many top brand names were very poor at that.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

I did a quick Google search and did not find anything that indicates this is an 8-bit TN panel, so I can only conlclude that it's 6-bit (like the rest of the 22" displays out there).

The Anandtech reviewer mentions in this article that they are unaware of any 22" display that doesn't use a 6-bit TN panel.

You may want to read this Wikipedia article about LCD display technology as well:

TFT LCD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

mikef said:


> I did a quick Google search and did not find anything that indicates this is an 8-bit TN panel, so I can only conlclude that it's 6-bit (like the rest of the 22" displays out there).


It says right on the link I posted in ehMac that this is an 8-bit panel.
They call it 24-bit, ie 8-bit for each of the three colours and they clearly show 16.7M colours - 6-bit would be 16.2M.
Maybe the spec is wrong - but here is what's shown:


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Actually - if you go to the Canadian Acer website, it's shown as an 8-bit panel as well:
Acer - Canada - Products

And the Anandtech review you posted a link to shows this monitor as an 8-bit monitor as well, right in the specs they posted in the review; not sure what the Wiki is supposed to add.

The Anandtech review is extremely technical, I bet you most people can't follow in detail what they are talking about.
What I find somewhat ridiculous in the review is that they compare this 22-inch monitor only with 24 and 30-inch monitor that are two and a half times to four times the price - what's the logic in that? Very misleading IMHO.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

Funny the spec sheet on the Acer UK website says it's a 16.2M colour, 6-bit panel:

http://www.acer.co.uk/acereuro/wr-resource/2002964253/upload/E0Entity0/9/Monitor LCD_UK.pdf

I've still yet to seen evidence of an 8-bit TN panel... maybe most people don't care about accurate colour, but I do. Forgive me for trying to raise this issue so it's not an after purchase surprise.


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

AFAIK, all of the new Phillips, LG, and Samsung TN panels are 8-bit. Here is an obscenely long and detailed thread on the L204: LG L204WT: 5ms and 2000:1 contrast - [H]ard|Forum 

Apparently, most North American L204 units come with the Chumba panel, not the LG. The former is reported to be 6-bit, but the one that I had looked too good to be dithered. If it does use dithering, then it does a mightily fine job. My only complaint about the LG and most TN panels is the viewing angle. Everything else is outstanding --colors (not as good as IPS but excellent anyway), brightness, sharpness, response rate, etc. 

I don't know if the iMac panels are MVA/PVA/TN or IPS but would be very surprised if the 20" and 24" are not IPS. The 17" appears to be MVA or PVA. It has a slight bluish tinge that shouldn't be there for an 8-bit panel.


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

mikef said:


> Funny the spec sheet on the Acer UK website says it's a 16.2M colour, 6-bit panel:
> 
> http://www.acer.co.uk/acereuro/wr-resource/2002964253/upload/E0Entity0/9/Monitor%20LCD_UK.pdf


I personally don't heed manufacturer specs because sometimes the marketing department doesn't know what it's writing about.


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## Godric (Nov 23, 2005)

The best 20 inch widescreen monitor available at a reasonable price is Dell's 2007wfp. Its S-IPS panel has true 8 bit color and has the widest possible viewing angle. Its predecessor, the 2005fpw used the same exact LCD panel as Apple's 20" Cinema. I don't know if this is the case for the 2007wfp but it should indicate that Dell's higher-end monitors aren't as crappy as its computers.

One step down are VA panels. Examples are the Acer AL2051W and the Viewsonic VX2025wm. I believe the 17" iMac uses a VA panel so you are likely to be familiar with its characteristics.

TN monitors are kind of blah. I suggest spending a bit more to get a VA or S-IPS since you will be staring at it for months, if not years.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

I never realized how frustrating buying an LCD monitor could be. There seems to be so many opinions and contradicting info about the various LCD's. I talked to the Apple store on my campus today and they did tell me they are getting some LG LCD's in that are the same as the 20" imac for $300, so I may wait and just get one of them, unless I see a good deal on a viewsonic.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

applebook said:


> I personally don't heed manufacturer specs because sometimes the marketing department doesn't know what it's writing about.


My point exactly! Even worse in this case is that Acer's own sites in different countries don't agree. Other reviews I found also seem to confirm that it's a 6-bit panel.



Godric said:


> The best 20 inch widescreen monitor available at a reasonable price is Dell's 2007wfp.


Also worth mentioning that it's on sale right now at Costco.ca for $359.99 including 5 year warranty.



vapour said:


> I never realized how frustrating buying an LCD monitor could be.


It's made even more complex if you don't know what to look for and then end up stuck with something that's sub-par down the road.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

Hey thanks, that tempting. Hmm I wonder if I need a costco membership to buy this.


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

I think you can buy online without a membership. The good thing with Costco is you can take anything back without question so it's good if something dies on you. Those Dells are pretty sweet.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

vapour said:


> Hey thanks, that tempting. Hmm I wonder if I need a costco membership to buy this.


No, but there's a 5% surcharge for non-members.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

mikef - 

You need to read all the detail on these websites.
On the Acer website it will tell you that this 22-inch model has *different specs in different countries*
So it's quite possible that the monitor sold in the UK uses a 6-bit panel.
The Canadian ad I linked to says 8-bit or 16.7M colours; the Canadian Acer website says 16.7M colours, the review that you yourself linked to says 16.7M colours.
Three separate independant places state it's 16.7M colours which means it has to be an 8-bit panel.
Forget what the UK site says, that's irrelevant.

S-IPS panels are at least twice the price or more. The big practical difference is the viewing angle. For a computer monitor where you normally sit in front of it, not off to the side, this I don't think is a big issue.
From a practical user point of view, I would worry more about dead pixels than all this discussion about panel types. 
Bottom line, as I stated earlier, is to try out the monitor before you buy and make sure you have a solid return policy. Costco is excellent in that regard.

And BTW - If you read up on the net you will find that you are not guaranteed to receive an S-IPS panel with the Dell 2007WFP. Dell uses two panel types in this monitor. S-IPS and S-PVA. It is a completely random process so there is no way to know which panel you will receive. However, due to the much lower price of the 2007WFP compared to other S-IPS panel monitors, many are willing to take the risk for a cheap widescreen S-IPS panel.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

mikef said:


> Also worth mentioning that it's on sale right now at Costco.ca for $359.99 including 5 year warranty.


Where do you see that price? For me it comes up as $409.99

And I agree, the Dell Ultrasharp monitors are excellent. I have a 19-inch one I really like and my next LCD monitor will probably be another Dell. Need to go at least 22-inch in widescreen to get the same vertical height as a regular 19-inch.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

This page shows the discount in the short description, but it appears the deal might be over. The link showed the $50 off earlier this evening when I posted the URL.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

Here's a screenshot in case the site might be being changed.


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

Godric said:


> The best 20 inch widescreen monitor available at a reasonable price is Dell's 2007wfp. Its S-IPS panel has true 8 bit color and has the widest possible viewing angle.


KRS is about the 2007. Even though some panels might not be IPS, it still is superior to the L204, according to most people, so if price one is willing to spend a bit more over the LG, one should get the Dell, IMO.

Today I had a look at the latest LG 24." It looks very nice but without proper calibration, I cannot tell for sure. Also, it was running Vista (EW) and looked slightly washed out, but the viewing angles were very wide.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

applebook said:


> KRS is about the 2007. Even though some panels might not be IPS, it still is superior to the L204, according to most people, so if price one is willing to spend a bit more over the LG, one should get the Dell, IMO.


Seems you pretty much get what you pay for. 
And you need to do your homework ahead of time and jump on the monitor when it's on sale. I see that the L204 is back up at $300.- now.
So the price between it and the 20-inch Dell can vary from $50 to $150.

I agree with you - as far as I'm concerned, Dell monitors give you the best bang for the buck if you buy them during the Dell Deal Days. And I must say, Dell's customer service is great in my experience. I ordered the 19-inch Ultrasharp about a year ago when it was on sale. Didn't like the first one because the colours seemed a bit washed out - it had the AUO panel. Called Dell, they sent me a replacement which had the Samsung panel and was much better. Dell paid all the shipping both ways.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

Yes the prices seem to yo yo at Futurecriminals. How often are the Dell deal days? I guess I will see what comes up on sale. I also found a Samsung 205BW for $329 at Staples which seems to be pretty good....The Dell sounds like the deal but for some reason I have a bias against them. Evil Apple marketing, I guess

Thanks for the info


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

BlueMax said:


> Can you do dual-monitor with an iMac, or does it disable the primary screen to send the output to another?
> 
> If it disables, wouldn't it be counter-productive? Sell the 17" iMac and get a 20 or 24-incher....


Hows Lacombe these days? I remember the town well...had lots of friends there....


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

FWIW, the Dell 20" is on sale right now at Dell.ca for $359 (without the 5 year warranty that Costco included).


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## Godric (Nov 23, 2005)

TN panels often achieve 16.7 million colors through a bit of technical trickery. The result isn't as good as a true 8 bit panel. You can't infer "if 16.7M then 8 bit." The 22" Acer you linked to uses a panel sourced from Chimei. It is a 6 bit panel that uses FRC to give the appearance of 16.7 million colors. You'll be able to see dithering in gradients.



krs said:


> The Canadian ad I linked to says 8-bit or 16.7M colours; the Canadian Acer website says 16.7M colours, the review that you yourself linked to says 16.7M colours.
> Three separate independant places state it's 16.7M colours which means it has to be an 8-bit panel.


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## gtgt (Jul 19, 2005)

I have the LG for one of my imacs (20") and it matches it great bright white screen and very sharp.
Got the Acer for my G5 tower to go with the 24" Dell and it sucks - blurry and not very bright.
Also have another 24" Dell to go with my 24" Imac and is a perfect match, although the imac screen is a tad bit brighter.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Godric said:


> TN panels often achieve 16.7 million colors through a bit of technical trickery. The result isn't as good as a true 8 bit panel. You can't infer "if 16.7M then 8 bit." The 22" Acer you linked to uses a panel sourced from Chimei. It is a 6 bit panel that uses FRC to give the appearance of 16.7 million colors. You'll be able to see dithering in gradients.


If a 6-bit panel uses FRC, it's always listed as 16.2 million colours, not 16.7 million colours. And this 22-inch Acer is spec'd at 24-bits in one of the spec sheets, the others just say 16.7 million colours.
See also
LCD Color: 8-Bit vs. 6-Bit

If you're really worried about the colour depth of the monitor, you can always use this test:
On a 16.7 million colour LCD (8-bit) each *second* row will show a smooth transition of the colour, with 6-bit and dithering you will see distinct steps.
Th other rows are colour blocks of course.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

mikef said:


> FWIW, the Dell 20" is on sale right now at Dell.ca for $359 (without the 5 year warranty that Costco included).


On Dell Days Deals, this monitor was $30 cheaper, but if you want it now, $359 is a a good price. The Costco sale is finished now, is it not? You still get a three year warranty with Dell.
Comp - Day 8, Mar 27: Dell's Days of Deals: 2007WFP $329, MX Revolution $69, Dell 5.1 $89 - RedFlagDeals.com Forums


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## Godric (Nov 23, 2005)

Alas, this used to true a few months ago. Since then, an updated form of FRC has been creeping into monitors. Dubbed Hi-FRC for "High Color FRC," it allows 6-bit panels to display an apparent 16.7 million color palette. It's just more marketing/dithering trickery.

I had to load up on all this useless knowledge a few weeks ago when choosing a monitor for a new PC build. In the end, I decided to wait until Leopard and/or a revised iMac to come out.  Brains are too finite in capacity to clutter up with all these factoids...

http://prohardver.hu/html/monitor/22col_tft_1/iccz/hi-frc.pdf



krs said:


> If a 6-bit panel uses FRC, it's always listed as 16.2 million colours, not 16.7 million colours. And this 22-inch Acer is spec'd at 24-bits in one of the spec sheets, the others just say 16.7 million colours.
> See also
> LCD Color: 8-Bit vs. 6-Bit


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

krs said:


>


Aw crap... 6-bit here. Nice to know at least.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Godric said:


> Alas, this used to true a few months ago. Since then, an updated form of FRC has been creeping into monitors. Dubbed Hi-FRC for "High Color FRC," it allows 6-bit panels to display an apparent 16.7 million color palette. It's just more marketing/dithering trickery.


I came across this "Hi-FRC" concept late last night.
Thanks for the pdf.
The question in my mind now is:" Does a 16.7 M colour Hi-FRC panel look the same and 'measure' the same as a 16.7 M 8-bit panel (assuming all other parameters are the same)? Haven't found an answer to that yet, but if it doesn't, this borders on fraud. Even the 16.2 M colour spec doesn't really make any sense.
Think about it, theoretically I'm "missing" 0.5 M colours which is only about 3% - I wouldn't expect that to be as noticable as it actually.
Here is a very detailed site on LCD panels, I think after you read some of this you sort of give up trying to make sense of it all.
They show the 22-inch Acer as having a Hi-FRC panel which would mean the Acer 24-bit spec is wrong.
AnandTech - LCD Buyer's Guide


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## Godric (Nov 23, 2005)

Yeah, I noticed that almost every important specification has been juiced up by one manufacturer or another. Colors, contrast ratios, response times, etc seem to have obscure little caveats buried inside. It's all quite mysterious and/or outright deceptive. The thing is, 99% of consumers probably don't care. I'm not all that sure I do either when it comes to real-world use. It's just that when I'm buying something, I get obsessed with drilling down to the product with the best price/features. It's frustratingly difficult to do so with LCD's. Even when you've found a solid product, there're still panel lotteries and dead pixels to deal with. 

I'm probably just going to buy whatever Apple puts out from now on. The displays on the 20 and 24 inch iMacs look really sweet. I don't want to know more. I don't think it's worth the aggravation. "Hi-FRC" probably overwrote some important telephone number or childhood memory. 



krs said:


> Haven't found an answer to that yet, but if it doesn't, this borders on fraud. Even the 16.2 M colour spec doesn't really make any sense.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

Interesting! According to this pixel band test my 17" imac core duo is only a 6 bit monitor. I would have thought Apple used 8 bit.


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

imactheknife said:


> Hows Lacombe these days? I remember the town well...had lots of friends there....


Great place to live! Too bad housing has soared here... almost impossible to buy a home under $200K.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

It also shows banding on my MBP 15". I have my doubts about the validity of that test pattern.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

I found a more complete set of tests here LCD monitor test images


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

mikef said:


> It also shows banding on my MBP 15". I have my doubts about the validity of that test pattern.


You may be right - I'm wondering about that myself.
I always thought the 19-inch Dell Ultrasharp I'm using (with the Samsung panel) was 8-bit, but it does show the steps.

Anyone try this test and *not* get these 'steps'?


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

vapour said:


> I found a more complete set of tests here LCD monitor test images


Well - I tried the gradient test and I don't get any 'dithering' the way it's described on this webpage.

However, if I look up my Samsung panel on the Samsung webpage, it's listed as 16.7M colours (no 8 or 6-bit specified), but there are a number of discussions on the net about this panel arguing if it's 6 or 8-bit.
Some people claim the spec on the Samsung website is wrong.........

So I'm really no further ahead trying to figure out what I *really* have and how to tell 6 vs 8-bit by testing the monitor.

All I know is that the Dell 1907 with the Samsung panel looks much better, colours more vibrant, than the 1907 with the AUO panel. I had them both running side by side connected to the same Mac.


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

Nice and simple test  

I have no doubts that the 17" iMac and all MacBooks and the 15" (17" too probably) Pro are definitely 6-bit. Their viewing angles are far too poor to be 8-bit IPS panels.


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## mikef (Jun 24, 2003)

I personally doubt any Mac has a 6-bit panel.


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

The test pattern shows smoothly on both my brother's IPS Dell FP2001 and on my 20" Intel iMac


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

mikef said:


> I personally doubt any Mac has a 6-bit panel.


No IPS panel has viewing angles are poor as the 17" iMac and all portable Macs. You can believe whatever you want. 

Why does it surprise anyone that a laptop display would use 6-bit TN or M/S VA panels?


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

applebook said:


> The test pattern shows smoothly on both my brother's IPS Dell FP2001 and on my 20" Intel iMac


Which test pattern? The one I posted or the other one?


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

The imac does list as showing 16.7 million colours, so if it's a TN panel then there must be some fudging or dithering.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

vapour said:


> The imac does list as showing 16.7 million colours, so if it's a TN panel then there must be some fudging or dithering.


Does anyone know which particular panel the iMacs use? Manufacturer and product number?
Then you can look up if it's an 8 or 6-bit panel.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

krs said:


> Does anyone know which particular panel the iMacs use? Manufacturer and product number?
> Then you can look up if it's an 8 or 6-bit panel.


As far as I can recall, based on recent repairs on said iMacs, most, if not all iMacs (Intel included) use Samsung and LG -branded LCD panels. Sorry, no product number.


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## Godric (Nov 23, 2005)

The 17" iMac Core Duo uses an LG/Philips LM171W02. It's a 6 bit TN+FRC. This took a lot more Googling than I would ideally prefer. I believe the 20" and 24" iMacs use S-IPS panels. The former because I've seen it with my own eyes, the later because, to my knowledge, there aren't any 24 inchers that aren't s-ips.

Disassembled iMac (Core Duo) by KODAWARISAN_Page1

TFT Central - News Archive

http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/homeContain/jsp/download.jsp?fileName=LG_Philips_LCD.PDF


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I came across this site which lists very detailed specifications from many LCD panel manufacturers - more detail than you really want to know.
LCD Datasheet & LCD specification.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

Godric and Krs, Thanks for the info. I looked at the new 24" imac vs the 17" this morning and now I want one of those 24 " imac beasts.


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## applebook (Aug 4, 2004)

Almost all (maybe all?) 24" panels are PVA/MVA at the moment: 

Master Monitors List - WSGFWiki

You can easily tell if a panel is TN simply by viewing it from sharp angles and discerning if the colors darken. PVA/MVA panels tend to whiten and are generally much wider.


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