# Fidel Castro should be arrested!



## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I have spent quite a bit of time living and working in Cuba. I came within a hairsbreadth of marrying into a Cuban family. I have never spent a single day in a Cuban resort like Varadero. I am relatively fluent in Spanish....and have talked with a great many Cubans about their lives and what they see for the future.I have lived and travelled to parts of the island that most North Americans would never see. Not in a lifetme...believe me.

Here is what I've learned..


There is no question that Fidel has imprisoned many thousands of his own people during his tyrannical reign over the population of Cuba. This has been well documented. He has never given the Cuban people the chance to express their will at all...there have been no free elections since 1959!

Many thousands were shot in the early days, and tens of thousands are currently in prison for disagreeing with his ideas. Many families and individuals have had their life's work rendered useless because Fidel has stolen all that they have worked for. He has left them penniless and destitute. 

He, and his henchmen, have siezed all that is of value in this poor country and kept it for themselves. They contend that this was done to "EQUALIZE" the different classes.


Bullsh*t!!!


Despite all of his efforts over a forty year period...there are still terrible distortions in the workplace. Busboys and baggage handlers at the national airports make one HUNDRED times the wage that doctors and engineers make.

Most of the people of Cuba make just slightly less than it takes to live with some degree of comfort. Cubans have to pay their electric bills to Fidel in American dollars. But they are paid in wothless Cuban Pesos. They have to find some nefarious way to make the US dollars that they need to pay the bills that are due in US dollars. This leads to some serious desperation. Anythng goes...believe me.

If you are in Cuba....you cannot buy a Television set or any other electronic device, in Cuban Pesos. Only American money will work for these big ticket items. The same goes for your electric bill. That means that you have to earn some American dollars SOME way.

Prostitution is everywhere! Even thougn I was with my Cuban girlfriend everywhere, I still was apprroached by (sometimes VERY YOUNG girls)almost everywhere I went. They were rather persistant. It was pretty sad, really.I kept saying that I HAD a namorada...but they didn't seem to care.

The average Cuban family does NOT have a telephone. (there is usually one in the same city block....but it is very rare to see one ina Cuban home.) The average Cuban has never had a car. Many of them have never even RIDDEN in a car. Some have Television sets....but there are only TWO channels, and one of them is "All Fidel, all of the time". The other one is dominated by either twisted news reports or soap operas called "fotonovellas"

My girlfriend....who is a Medical Doctor with two PHD's...has never owned a car...has no telephone...and had a broken black and white TV when I met her. She makes one dollar a day. Her two brothers are both engineers and they barely make that much per day. She has to make her own cltohes because she can't afford to actually BUY them. We are talking about a DOCTOR here.

Most Cubans have never even SEEN a computer....let alone USED one. They were illlegal, until about two years ago. There are computers now, in the local libraries....there is about ONE computer for every THREE HUNDRED PEOPLE.

Think about THAT for a moment...

The current status of the Cuban people is "equally poor", instead of "Equal". Some people are making out like bandits, while the average Cuban is wallowing in a form of poverty that is unknown almost anywhere else in the world. And there is no hope of change....until Fidel dies, or is disposed. He is not likely to leave on his own, because he would almost certainly 
be arrested as soon as he gave up power. He is no different than any other despot, at this point....and must answer fort his crimes.


Socialism isn't working here any better than it has anywhere else in the world. Big surprise. 

Unfortunately....while Fidel and his henchmen live like kings... Doctors, engineers, and teachers have to exist on a pittance per month.Teachers make less than 15 dollars per month and engineers make about twelve dollars per month....when they can find work. 

Is this FAIR?Most Cubans don't think so. And, what's more...they are NOT allowed to leave the country. It's somewhat similar to East Germany (or any of the other former Communist countries) 

Cubans can be shot or imprisioned for even ATTEMPTING an exit from their particular version of hell.

But they Do have free medical care! (remember, that the doctors are captive, and are paid almost nothing.) I wonder how long this artificial situation would last if the doctors, or the teachers, were free to leave?

But, for now, at least...they have a free medical plan. And good schools. They have nothing else at all....but, what the heck.... 

Hot diggety damn! Sign me up!

Sometime soon, Fidel will be gone. He will die or be disposed when he can no longer do the job. At that point, the Cubans will have some serious questions to ask themselves. The SAME questions that Russia and all it's client states had to ask themselves about a decade ago.

Wonder what the answers will be? Does anyone really think that the Cuban people want to continue this horrible charade? Go and ask a Cuban....they sure are ready for a change.

Fidel HAS to go!

Anyone care to make any comments?


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

Fidel has to go
Saddam has to go
Osama has to go

They all need to have an "accident"

Short and sweet, thats all I think.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDaddy,

Add Bush to that list.

As for MacNutt...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
He has never given the Cuban people the chance to express their will at all...there have been no free elections since 1959!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I refer the reader to http://www.nscuba.org/Docs/Democracy/august.html for information on (and ordering info for) the book "Democracy in Cuba and the 1997/98 Elections" by Montreal author Arnold August. A slightly newer and perhaps more accessible book is Peter Roman's "People's Power: Cuba's Experience with Representative Government" (Westview Press, Boulder Colorado). Both describe in great detail the participatory nature of Cuba's political system. A few points:

- The communist party does not (and is forbidden by law) propose candidates for election. Only the people living in each neighbourhood may choose who will stand. Candidates do not have to be members of the communist party (the actual number of card-carrying members of the party is not very high), nor do they become party members by taking office.

- There is no equivalent of our "campaigning" for office in Cuba. Residents of a neighbourhood propose candidates. Candidates have summaries of their resume, contributions to their community, education, etc., posted in a publicly-accessible space. On the day of the election, residents cast a secret ballot, which are counted in front of their own eyes at the end of the day. Candidates must receive 50%+1 of the vote to take office. If not, there is a byelection.

- Cuban citizens have the right of recall. If they don't feel as though their representative is fulfilling his/her duties, they can yank 'em back to the neighbourhood for an accountability session and/or dismissal. A byelection would follow to fill the vacant post.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Many thousands were shot in the early days, 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many people convicted in public tribunals of the worst crimes (murder, torture) under the U.S.-supported Batista regime were sentenced to death by firing squad. Others who committed less serious crimes were given jail terms. Most of those jailed for lesser offences served their time, were educated and were integrated into Cuban society.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Many families and individuals have had their life's work rendered useless because Fidel has stolen all that they have worked for. He has left them penniless and destitute.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, no, actually. If you mean by "life's work" the enrichment of certain families to the detriment of others, then yes. However, the vast majority of Cubans, particularly blacks and seasonal farm labourers, benefitted enormously from the Revolution. There are many farmers who still own the land their families had for generations. Yup, private farmers in a communist country - imagine that. "Penniless and destitute" is a distortion of the truth. No-one is penniless... all have guaranteed jobs, or at least guaranteed income. It may not be much, but they survive without having to scavage through garbage dumps (like on the outskirts of most Latin American cities), sell their children into prostitution, sell an organ, etc. They also have an extremely stable society and the lowest crime rates in the Americas.

Did you know that the majority of Cubans own their own home? Again, it may not be much - but they are not indebted to landlord who becomes wealthy off the rents. If Cubans do pay rent (to the state), it is capped at 2% of their monthly income. My monthly rent in Halifax was 23% of my income. Plus my phone bill, power bill, and if I chose to have cable or hi-speed internet... whew!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
He, and his henchmen, have siezed all that is of value in this poor country and kept it for themselves. They contend that this was done to "EQUALIZE" the different classes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAH!

Where on earth did that come from? Kept what for themselves? Show me the Swiss bank accounts, brother. That allegation has never been propagated in the 43 years of the Revolution! Even that deeply flawed Forbes magazine article claiming Fidel was a wealthy billionaire didn't go that far (they just attributed all wealth in the country to him, since he is a "dictator" in total control of everything).

Much was nationalized, certainly, and the "wealth" (assets, natural resources, etc.) is now in the control of and managed by the state. Priceless art collections? In the national museums. Go to Havana and see El Museo de Bellas Artes. Incredible. What you have done is, using western capitalist value systems, avoided seeing the socialization of what wealth exists in this developing nation, where all are theoretically supposed to be equal.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Despite all of his efforts over a forty year period...there are still terrible distortions in the workplace. Busboys and baggage handlers at the national 
airports make one HUNDRED times the wage that doctors and engineers make.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In reality, Cubans were in very good shape until 1989, when their socialist trading partners disappeared (or started demanding payment in U.S. dollars). Then the country lost approx. 45% of their international trade overnight. What do you think would happen in Canada in a similar situation? They were forced to undertake economic development measures which were not on their agenda.

Those who work in the tourist industry do indeed make huge wages in dollars by working in the tourist industry. Those workers are also heavily taxed, in an effort to lessen the disparities of income. What these workers do have is access to tips in dollars, and access to foreigners who can be hustled / married. This has placed a huge burden upon the State, which is trying to keep professionals in their jobs and not on the beach, or driving the taxis, etc. 

MacNutt, I would be extremely surprised if Cubans have to pay their electric bills to the State electricity company (not to Fidel) in U.S. dollars, since even the Cuban minister of the economy has said that 60% of Cubans do not have access to dollars.

Cuban pesos are not worthless. At the official exchange rate, they are 27 pesos to the dollar, last time I checked. This, by the way, is better than the exchange rate in Jamaica the last time I was there.

With pesos you can buy food and goods at the state stores on your ration card, and vegetables and meat at the local farmer's markets, which are everywhere. The daily newspapers are sold in pesos, as is public transportation (ridiculously cheap, even by Cuban standards). Heck, when I'm in Havana, my main mode of transport are those great old '55 Chevys and Bel-Aires, which cost ten pesos for a trip halfway across the city (that's about 50 cents USD).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Prostitution is everywhere! Even thougn I was with my Cuban girlfriend everywhere, I still was apprroached by (sometimes VERY YOUNG girls)almost everywhere I went. They were rather persistant. It was pretty sad, really.I kept saying that I HAD a namorada...but they didn't seem to care.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This really burns my butt. Cuba has prostitution! Call out the morality squad! Send in the troops! Oh, but of course, when the "troops" (read: U.S. soldiers) were treating Cuba like the Caribbean brothel it had become prior to 1959, that was no problem (just like it's no problem in the Philippines or Thailand today).

I remember when Cuba first began to seriously pursue tourism in the early- to mid-1990s (the economic crisis bottomed out in 1994. It was _bad_, man). Some Cuban women (and men) turned to prostitution to make a buck from foreign tourists. What were Cuba's critics in the U.S. screaming? "Castro is exploiting Cuban women!" Over the next year or so, Cuba began passing bylaws (which hadn't been needed until the tourists showed up) to deal with the prostitution problem. The cops began arresting prostitutes, they were dealt with through social services, some went back to respectable jobs, others kept on going for the easy money, the restaurant dinners, the clothes, etc. So when Cuba began enforcing anti-prostitution bylaws, what was the response by Cuba's critics? "Castro is repressing Cuban women!" Christ, you just can't win!

And to all those who harp on the prostitution issue: Glass houses, amigos. Take a walk through Vancouver's red light district, through New York city, through any decently-sized community in the world, and you'll have prostitution. What people continue to avoid discussing, curiously, is the fact that Cuba had virtually no prostitution for over 30 years, due to other economic opportunites (jobs, education, etc.) which the Revolution gave to Cuban women after 1959. No, none of *that* matters now... hypocritical b+++++ds!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
The average Cuban family does NOT have a telephone. (there is usually one in the same city block....but it is very rare to see one ina Cuban home.) 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cuba, a developing nation, has fairly typical telephone-per-person ratio. I have friends who share one telephone line with several neighbours in their building. Going a whole city block without a phone? That's stretching it...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
The average Cuban has never had a car. Many of them have never even RIDDEN in a car. 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cuban planners have focused on (a) providing cars to people who need them to do their jobs, and (b) on providing mass-transit for commuters. There are Cubans who live in the deep countryside and mountains who likely use horses, etc. for transport more than cars (a phenomenon which was much higher in the mid-1990s, when there was no money to buy gasoline or parts for vehicles), but this is becoming less and less the case. 

There are more than two channels. CubaVision (soap operas, news, political commentary, variety programs), another which is mostly entertainment, a third which started last year is a national distance-education channel (english language, others). So what would be acceptable? 10 channels? 20? 400? What would it take for people not to point at Cuba's 'two channels' and claim that it's an enormous human rights violation? What value system are you using?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
or soap operas called "fotonovellas"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, "telenovelas". My favourite was "El Rey de Ganado" (loosely translated, it mean "the cattle king"). Brazilian. Originally shot in portuguese, overdubbed in Spanish. My english brain had a heckuva time sorting that out (lips didn't match the words!). The Cuban novela was very interesting... it dealt with contemporary social problems, youth marrying foreign tourists, the impact of tourism on the culture, etc. Very enlightened and analytical programming!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
My girlfriend....who is a Medical Doctor with two PHD's...has never owned a car...has no telephone...and had a broken black and white TV when I met her. She makes one dollar a day. Her two brothers are both engineers and they barely make that much per day. She has to make her own cltohes because she can't afford to actually BUY them. We are talking about a DOCTOR here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And without the Revolution, what would she be? Entertaining yankee sailors on a nightclub stage (or worse)? Working in a maquiladora (Mexican-style mega-factories which were devastatingly exposed in the film, "The Global Assembly Line") for pennies a day, while it pumps toxic waste into the "stream" which runs through her shanty town? She's a DOCTOR. Her brothers are ENGINEERS. The fact that they don't make a salary equivalent to what those professions demand in our country is a reflection on our values, not Cuba's.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Most Cubans have never even SEEN a computer....let alone USED one. They were illlegal, until about two years ago. There are computers now, in the local libraries....there is about ONE computer for every THREE HUNDRED PEOPLE.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now you're on _my_ territory, chico.

- Cuba has computers in EVERY school in the country
- The National Youth Computer Club has had community computer centres in every one of the 169 municipalities, open to the public, since the early 1990s. The first 200 centres were opened before 1989... that's before the World Wide Web was even a glint in that Swiss dude's eye. 
- Cuba has begun opening electronic "post offices" all over the country to facilitate domestic and international communication.

The ratio of computers-to-people isn't important. This is a socialist state, remember. It's the accessibility that is driving Cuban IT development, not getting a computer into everyone's home. As you noted, the average Cuban could not afford one anyway. Those that do receive $$ from relatives abroad (or the CIA) to buy one gain an advantage over their neighbours, which is anathema to Cuba's sense of equity. Providing public access for all to the same technology is the moral way to develop the nation, from the Cuban perspective.

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Some people are making out like bandits, while the average Cuban is wallowing in a form of poverty that is unknown almost anywhere else in the world. 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd laugh if that weren't so sad. The "poverty" which people from the west see when they travel to Cuba, even as enlightened tourists, is far removed from the reality of (let's stick with) Latin America.

Look at the struggles for land by the MST (landless worker's union) in Brazil, where people risk their lives to occupy fallow farmland so they can scrape out some weeds to feed their families, always afraid that the landlord's henchmen will show up to shoot them. Or the children on the streets of major LatAm cities, who have been known to show up dead in the morning, either due to the glue they've been sniffing or the bullets pumped into them by off-duty corrupt cops working for local businessman tired of these kids stealing for food, drugs, etc. Let's look at the favelas - the shanty towns - outside any Latin American city, which regularly collapse under the rains which wash away the hillside muck upon which they were built.

Cuba has no homeless. Cuba has no-one uncared for. Cuba has no child without milk, no person without access to education, no community without medical care. Cuba has no death squads. Cuba has no foreign banana company displacing farmers and then conspiring with the CIA and State Dept. to overthrow the government. Cuba has no farmers forced to grow coca for the crack market because import-substitution policies which would have made their crops viable have been banned under IMF loan requirements, nor drug barons threatening them with death unless they help to feed the enormous U.S. addiction.

Yeah, Cuba sure is a hell-hole, isn't it?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Unfortunately....while Fidel and his henchmen live like kings... 
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prove it. There are no palaces. There are no personal bank accounts in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands. There is, I think, a single Armani suit given to Fidel by one of his admirers. As politicians go, Fidel lives a comparably austere life. The government has a few black Mercedes sedans around for when the Latin American heads of state come to visit, and to service the hotel industry, but otherwise....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Doctors, engineers, and teachers have to exist on a pittance per month.Teachers make less than 15 dollars per month and engineers make about twelve dollars per month....when they can find work.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I've covered in an earlier post the fallacy of claiming how poor Cubans are who make "only $10 USD per month", when there is an entire "basket of goods" which is available for pesos to each Cuban. It does not cover their needs, certainly, but it ensures that no Cuban starves.

And if there exists a lack of jobs for Cubans in their profession, they have access to retraining (see the current huge undertaking with sugar plant workers) and they all receive unemployment benefits, which unlike Canada, don't run out after a few months with ridiculous qualification rituals.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Is this FAIR?Most Cubans don't think so. And, what's more...they are NOT allowed to leave the country. It's somewhat similar to East Germany (or any of the other former Communist countries)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair? Nope. Is it the government's fault? Not entirely. The U.S. economic blockade is very significant in its immediate and secondary impact.

Cubans ARE allowed to leave the country, as I have explained umpteen-times before. Some professionals must commit to working in their field for a certain number of years (they were, after all, educated for free... why should Cuba train doctors who will end up working in America? Helluva use for scarce resources of a developing nation).

The major blockage for the majority of Cubans who wish to travel / emigrate is securing the visa from the RECEIVING country, not from Cuba. Those of us with white skin and Canadian passports have no idea how difficult international travel is for 90% of the people on this planet.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Cubans can be shot or imprisioned for even ATTEMPTING an exit from their particular version of hell.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa.. cue the hystrionics. Try crossing the U.S.-Canada border at any place that isn't a border post, without showing any documents. And try doing it while being Arab. See how far you get. Better still, try being a Mexican trying to cross into Texas or California. In any country, illegal migration is a crime punishable by a jail sentence or fine. Or are we holding Cuba to a different standard? 

Sigh. So much for my thesis this weekend....

M.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Hey CubaMark, I think macnutt was fishing to open a new front with you....







That said, Cuba is an interesting anachronism/model depending on your point of view. Over the years, things have mellowed to a degree but the economic migration continues. Elias Goncalves was a case in point and the Americans actually did the right thing against (local) popular opinion in Little Cuba. It was sickening to see a kid be manipulated by both sides though.

The key question though is whether Cuban's truly have self-determination. It certainly didn't start that way, but after 40 odd years, its sad to see the government still clamping down when surely its the people who should decide their fate. Protecting them from the "wrong" decision is no excuse.

Hope your thesis is going well. To bait macnutt: what topic would you write a thesis on? Here are a couple of ideas for one line theses:

1. Evidence for the inate intelligence of **** sapiens gleaned from the words of George W. Bush.

2. Examples of the fairer sex that failed to divert Bill Clintons carotid blood flow.

3. Subjects Jean Cretien and Ralph Klein talk about when they meet in the washroom.


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## SpanishJoe (Jul 9, 2001)

Cuba's economic position is a direct result of the US's dogged embargo, and the collapse of other socialist institutions. 

Of course, the best way to "overthrow communism" is to INCREASE trade. The best way to entrench socialist structures is to isolate them. 

Capitalism is based on a class system based on greed and exploitation... if the US really wants Castro gone, they have to take the opposite tack and create the social strata that they've estabilshed at home. Make a few people very wealthy, and the whole thing comes down. It's hard to work in a sugarcane plantation when your overlords are driving flash cars and are living in white palaces. Of course, in the States, that sort of thing is taken for granted, and nobody seems to want to rebel against it. Yet.

You see, what holds a corrupt capitalist system in place are threefold:

1) The illusion of democracy. In a small scale, democracy works quite well. In a larger system (hundreds of millions of voters), the individual voice is quashed. What you get is a system of sheep and shepherds, with a rich, overpriveleged white male at the top. Always.

2) The illusion of the American Dream. In a nutshell, this philosphy says that anyone who works hard enough can become wealthy. Lotteries, "Rich and Famous" celebrity mags and constant get-rich-quick success stories are constanty paraded to the American masses. In reality, this breeds a differnt kind of malaise, where the poor are seen as lazy, stupid and worthless, and are cast aside by the society as a whole.

3) The illusion of easy access to material goods. The conumer culture in America generates wage slavery seen nowhere else in the world. The populace is encouraged to apply for and recieve more interest-intensive consumer debt to puchase luxury items that are far beyond their means. Rent-to-own. Finance a car. Buy a TV. Get more credit. As a result, the average person is saddled with a huge debt which results in longer hours and much less pay. 

There are more examples, but I'll just stick with this for now. A socialist system (which Canada is, by the way) is not an evil monster to be destroyed, but a system which can be adapted to take on the best qualities of both a free market economy as well as a strong social safety net. A totalitarian system is present in both Cuba and the US. Pehaps we should look at improving them both.

-SJ.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacDaddy:
*Fidel has to go
Saddam has to go
Osama has to go

They all need to have an "accident"

Short and sweet, thats all I think.*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, I wonder if ehMac is making some flags go up on the FBI's keyword filters.  If I start seeing a car hanging around my front yard with two dudes in suits and ear pieces, I'm closing this forum.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

CubaMark, I loved your post. As someone who has travelled to Cuba almost every year since 1987 I can attest to what you have to say. Compared to other Caribean and Latin American countries I have visited, Cubans enjoy a wonderful quality of life. It's unfortunate that the majority of tourists try to place their ideals (ie:capitalism) on these folks. We here in North America are obsessed with the idea that the possesion of material goods is the be all end all and a sign of how well one is doing in the world. I have found this to be refreshingly absent from the vast majority of Cubans.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

EhMax: As Noam Chomsky once said in response to a question about whether he uses encryption on his email to keep the FBI / whomever out of it, (paraphrased) : No, I do everything publicly. That way no-one can accuse me of hiding anything.

JWoodget & Spanish Joe: appreciate your insights. And you're right - making both of them better should be the ultimate aim. Fidel has said on many occasions that Cuba's socialism works _in_Cuba_. It's not the system for everyone, and given the historical particulars of, for example, Canada and the U.S., Cuba's version of socialism is not for us. But there are lessons to be learned...

Adagio: Thanks, man. Whenever I come across someone who has taken their first tourist visit to Cuba (usually Varadero or Guardalavaca), they say they had a great time, people are friendly, but "oh, the _poverty_". My first question in response is usually, "Have you ever been off-resort in any other country in the developing world?" That's one of the reasons NSCUBA http://www.nscuba.org and other Cuba friendship groups try so hard to inform Canadians, so that they look beyond the surface. It's unfortunate that, apart from the tourism workers, the Cubans that most tourists encounter when they go off-resort are those Cubans who actively seek out foreigners for whatever reason. These people are not exactly portraying their country in a realistic manner... a hustler will more likely relate "how horrible" it is to live there, with an aim to illiciting sympathy from the tourist in order to obtain money, consumer goods, or in far too many cases, marriage prospects (you wouldn't believe how many emails we get in a year, asking for advice on how to import a Cuban boyfriend / girlfriend / spouse).

Hasta la próxima,
Mark.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I certainly seem to have stirred up a little sh*tstorm here,eh?

Too cool!  

Jwoodget: Actually, the reason I started this particular thread was because I was seriously steamed about a couple of emails that I had just recieved from Cuba. Apparently....CubaMark take note here, please....Cubans_ARE_ still being jailed for disagreeing with Fidel and his ideas. More on this later.

The fact that this subject caused Mark to blow an O-ring was just a side benefit. I think I heard the explosion from wayyy out here.  

Firstly....."Democracy in Cuba"

Now _that's_ a laugh! Sure, Fidel has tried to legitimise his hold on the whole country by setting up a mock version of "free elections". This was done for years in the old Soviet Union and even Saddam Hussein has "elections" but....you know something....it's _always_ the same guy running the show when the smoke clears and all of the votes are counted.

Doesn't that seem a bit odd to all of you?

Local representatives ARE elected to the National Assembly in Cuba. You can see hordes of them in the big arena fidgeting in total boredom, as Fidel conducts one of his rambling six hour speeches on Cuban TV. This gives the illusion that the average Cuban actually participates in their own government. To the outside world, that is. The Cubans themselves are fully aware that it is all a scam.

Don't believe me? Then ask yourself this question....

The National Assembly, ostensibly, is the governing body that chooses one person who will lead Cuba. A Nationa Leader. A President of Cuba. 

In all the years that this "National Assembly" has existed, each time it has voted, Fidel Castro got ONE HUNDRED PER CENT OF THE VOTE!!

Not even a SINGLE dissenting voice!

Now THAT"S a consensus! Man...I wish we had that sort of agreement about who will be running Canada for the next half-decade! 

Fidel must be quite comfortable in the knowledge that all of the people are 100% behind him, all the way. I mean, it really let's him know that he's on the right track....especially when there are so very many people who regularly try to flee from his triumphant revoloution. Not to mention the hundreds of Cuban citizens each year that he has to jail for speaking out about the poverty and repression that he has forced on them.

Yep...it must be a great comfort to the old dictator to know that, despite all of this, he can honestly say that he has ALWAYS recieved 100% of the vote.

Now...on to the rest.

"Most Cubans own their own home"

Of the two-dozen-odd close friends I have in that country only two actually own their own homes. Both of them predate the revoloution. Most people are housed in little rabbit warren apartments that the Russians built (less than four hundred square feet of space and no elevators or AC...they frequenly collapse, as well)

Home ownership is a distant dream for virtually all Cubans unless they were lucky enough to have something that was already theirs when the revoloution happened....something not seized by the leaders of the revoloution for their own use. And that also depends on what criteria you use to define the term "own". 

A buddy of mine, who lives there permanently, married into a Cuban family several years ago and they were lucky enough to have a small farm. He decided to upgrade the shanty house that all seven family members were forced to live in and discovered what almost everyone who has ever dealt with a socialist government has also discovered....it was theirs "in name only". If they wanted to do ANYTHING to change it, then they were looking at huge amonts of paperwork and permits. Even then, he needed to wait for "official permission" to fix the roof! Most Cubans simply go ahead and do it without bothering to notify the government 

(IF they can beg, borrow, or steal the materials....you sure as heck can't BUY them!)

He wanted to follow all of the rules (like a good little Canadian) and went ahead with the masses of paperwork required to add two rooms and an inside toilet (and a new roof) to the existing house that his family "owned". A year and a half later he still had not managed to get permission from the many levels of government. That's when he began to notice that several of the officials were suggesting to him that they could "expedite" things a bit ....for a fee.

This is NOT big news if you are familiar with the way things work in Latin America....but he was a little surprised because, like CubaMark...he was of the opinion that Cubans lived in a singularly equitable society, and that the revoloution had put Cuba on a different path from the rest of the corrupt governments that rule Central and South America.

Apparently not.

Now, seven years after he first moved there, he will tell anyone who cares to listen that Cuba is, as he so colorfully puts it..."just the same old sh*t in a different pile". Like me, he has worked and lived extensively in the southern hemisphere. His take on Cuban society? "Good schools and pretty fair hospitals, but the biggest difference I've noticed is this....in most Latin countries you have the VERY rich and the VERY poor. In Cuba, there are no VERY rich, just VERY poor.....except Fidel and his close compatriots. And they hide it pretty good when the cameras are around." 

This guy is pretty crucial to drilling activities in Cuba, and he has been to the palaces that Mark says do not exist. He has played golf on huge private golf courses and heard all sorts of insiders speaking about offshore accounts full of ready cash for "retirement". He has seen the wealth that is kept so very well hidden. The wealth that many Cubans suspect is there, but no one has any real proof of. That proof will come, once Fidel has gone. The very same thing happened when the old Soviet State collapsed. It shouldn't be news to anyone who isn't totally blinded by ideology.

One last thing on housing. My girlfriend's family pays 19% of their combined income for a rather sparse apartment. I have no idea where you get the 2% figure, unless it's from government propaganda. The 19% is rather a signifigant sum for them....especially since there is no phone on their floor, only one of the four elevators actually works, the water stops running so often that they keep a barrel in the bathroom, and....as it is in most of Cuba....there is no electricity much of the time.

And this is, let me remind you, a place that is occupied by three engineers and a doctor (plus two others). Did I mention that there are only three electrical outlets in the whole apartment? Doesn't matter...because like I mentioned...the power is off a lot of the time.

When you ask them how they can live like this, year after year, they just look wistfully and stroke their chin (simulating a beard) and say ..."someday...someday..."

BTW-They, like everyone else I know down there, are required to pay their electrical bill in US dollars. Both the BBC and "Sixty Minutes" have noted this fact in recent TV articles on Cuba.

Or are you still buying the government propaganda, Mark?

On Cuban Pesos:

They don't work in most stores...if you can even FIND a store outside of Havana. You can NOT buy a television set or a refrigerator, or most anything else, for Cuban Pesos. They are worthless wastepaper outside of the country. Cubans can't afford the unspeakable luxury of a new TV set or refrigerator or an air conditioner anyway. (besides...the power is off for several hours each day) No more than they could afford to buy a car....or the gas to put in one. Most of the appliances they have date back to the time when the Soviets were financing Fidel's experiment in Caribbean socialism. Once they pulled out there was no cash for new stuff and it's all starting to break down now. That's another reason that I maintain that this whole sordid mess is _unsustainable_.

The only way to keep it going is to let more and more capitalism into the socialist system, and that will cause even bigger distortions than we see today. People who have spent six or eight years at university will be on foot watching busboys and waiters drive around in fancy cars. This will fuel an already growing resentment among the Cuban population, and that will eventually lead to the end of the revoloution and the socialist experiment in Cuba. It's already started. If Fidel weren't tossing people in jail or harassing them for speaking out about it (or if he were _gone_) then the experiment would already be history.

Think he isn't throwing people in jail and harassing them for speaking out? Here is a link for you from Dr. Elena Mederos, who was a vocal opponent of the former Batista regime and was Fidels first "Minister of Social Welfare" in the 1959 revoloutionary government. (see bottom of page)

How about one from a German human rights organisation? 

Or one from the Netherlands?Dutch Human rights Organisation

Or we could always try the most famous of them all Amnesty International report on Cuba

I have LOTS more of this, if anyone is interested....and surprisingly enough, almost NONE of it is based in the USA....or paid for by the CIA. 

Fidels abuses of human rights are quite real and well documented by lots of people who are not Cubans living in Miami. People who catalog human rights abuses in every country on this planet. They are NOT being paid to say these things. It's all real.

And it's the only way that Fidel can stay in power. It's certainly the only way that he can continue to get 100% of the vote in every single election! It's the only way that socialism maintains it's(his) grip on this island nation.

He can't keep it up forever....especially with capitalism popping up everywhere around the edges. It's only a matter of time until he dies, or is overthrown and arrested.

He is mortally afraid of being arrested, because then his crimes would be exposed for all the world to see. So would the wealth.

Don't believe me? Read an interview with one of his former bodyguards, Capt. Lazaro Betancourt, who says "Castro lives in fear of being arrested by a foreign government while traveling overseas. We were directed to use deadly force, no matter what the cost, if this should occur" Castro's ex-bodyguard

There are many more things that he has done in the past that would be exposed, once he was arrested. I'll leave those for a future post.

In an interview with Barbara Walters two weeks ago she asked the old dictator why he would not allow any dissent or demonstrations against his total control of the Cuban government?

He answered (with a straight face, I might add) "I don't _have_ to prevent such demonstrations...because there _aren't_ any! None whatsoever!"

Yeah, 

Some of the above links had to be removed because they did not work when I tested them. Quite frustrating.

Here is the long form for Elena Mederos (the Former Minister of Social Welfare of Cuba) www.elenamederos.org 

International society of Human rights (frankfurt) is... www.ishr.org/countries/cubahtm 

Statements from Fidel's ex bodyguard about the dictator's mortal fear of arrest is here...
www.nocastro.com/archives/ebodygr.htm


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

A few final notes here to some of the other ehMac citizens who posted on this subject. Cubamark spent so much time on his post that I felt it required a pretty detailed reply....so I may have shorted some of the rest of you. Sorry. This post is a reply, in slightly more detail, to Jwoodget and Spanish Joe (I enjoyed reading the comments that both of you made....keep em coming!)

Jwoodget:
On your proposed thesis subjects...

1)George W is, obviously, not a particularly gifted public speaker (although I found his post 9-11 address to Congress to be a stirring oratory and I think it will be noted by historians of the future) He works well "under pressure" but the rest of the time he searches for words and seems a little nervous. I suspect that I would be too, if the whole world were watching. I am far more disturbed by someone like Bill Clinton (AKA "Slick Willie") who seemed to be more like a transplanted Arkansas mobile home salesman than the President of the most powerful country in the world. Probably why he let Hillary do most of the heavy lifting behind the scenes.

George W. Bush is, actually, a graduate of both Harvard and Yale. Pretty high-end schools, no matter how you look at it. Sure, Dad's money and influence probably got him in, but you gotta do the work in order to get the sheepskin in one of those places. You, of all people, surely know that.

Plus....and this is something that everyone seems to forget....he has one of the most intelligent and experienced Cabinets in US history helping him to make all of his decisions. And, by all accounts, he listens closely to their counsel. He is not one lone man running a country, however he sees fit (like Fidel). His cabinet is the most diverse in US history as well. 

I worked in the Texas oilpatch in the latter half of the seventies, which was the same time that George Jr. was there as a "landsman". I never met him, but I know quite a few people who did. (BTW-his Dad was nowhere near the Vice-Presidency at that point). All of the people I have spoken with who had dealings with George Jr. say exactly the same thing..."he is a singularly _honest_ man, with an ingrained natural sense of right and wrong."

This differs, somewhat, from his predecessor....and I feel that we are in the best possible hands right now. So, apparently, do the vasty majority of Americans. AND Canadians! An IPSOS-Reid poll conducted a few months after 9-11 found that, if George W. were to run against Jean Cretien in a Canadian election, George would win two to one.

2)Short answer to this one: NONE

BTW-This same thesis subject could be made much more interesting by sustituting the name "Hillary" for "Bill".
You could write volumes on THAT subject. In fact, there have been a few books on it already.


3)This meeting would never occur because Ralphie, like any good western male, prefers to pee outdoors....and Jean Cretien just retains it all. Note his healthy skin color and permanent grimace.


On to Spanish Joe.....

"Cuba's economic position is a direct result of the US's dogged embargo, and the collapse of the other socialist institutions"

The "other socialist institutions" (you _did_ mean "the other Marxist/Stalinist dictatorships, didn't you?) collapsed under the weight of the debts that they had accumulated by trying to provide all things to all people while spending massive portions of their budgets on bombs and guns (the Soviets were, we know now, spending 75% of their income on weaponry near the end) 

Something had to give, and the Soviets had to start cutting back on frills if they wanted to continue to develop the latest killing machines....so they stopped paying some of their workers, and long lineups formed at their hospitals. The failures of central planning were obvious when we saw the long lineups at government food distribution centers. People would line up whenever they saw a line starting, not knowing what was available sometimes... just knowing that waiting in line for the basic necessities (and being FIRST in line) was one of the sad realities of life under a totalitarian socialist system.

The weight of all this finally brought them down. The same lineups and huge bureaucracy, shortages and work stoppages, spelled an end to overall socialist thinking in Britain. Thatcher came along and changed their world, for the better. Britain is a much better place these days. Sweden and the Netherlands are also experiencing the same problems with their socialist systems, and they are also dismantling them as we speak. So is much of the rest of Europe, because no one can figure out how to actually pay for all of the promises that were made.

We, here in Canada, are experiencing the same sort of problems with our socialist health care system. Lineups and shortages and work stoppages are the order of the day. It CANNOT continue as it currently is....and we will see some radical changes to it in the next decade or so. 

Socialism is a _great_ idea on paper...too bad it didn't work.

You state that "capitalism is based on greed and exploitation and only works well on a small scale"

Couldn't disagree with you more, on this one!

Capitalism works just fine, on almost every scale. It is based on the simple human urge to improve one's lot in life, and that of their offspring. It feels _good_ to improve your life and leave something of real value to your offspring.

This is something that is _not possible_ under a socialist system. Under socialism, you are provided for-but cannot accumulate anything. It pre-supposes that we are all equal. We are NOT. 

Humans should always be treated equally, and given equal opportunities, but they should not be held back by a system that penalises those with real drive and rewards those who just "show up and do the job". 

Socialism makes everyone equal.....equally POOR!

If North America had been originally settled by a totally socialist system, then we would all still be a "developing Nation" and would, most probably, still be engaged in subsistence agriculture. Instead we are able to talk to each other via computers and we are able to travel to the far corners of the earth at short notice. On a normal wage. We can solve medical problems that would have killed us at an early age just a generation ago. Ask yourself how many great medical discoveries have been made in the so called "developing Nations". Then ask yourself if you would rather have grown up in one of those, instead of the modern world.

No wonder everyone in the world wants _into_ the kind of country we live in....and _out of_ the developing Nations. No one ever escapes _from_ North America....they escape _TO IT_.

I submit to you that capitalism works quite well on almost every scale (which indicates a certain amount of success) and it is _socialism_ that works well on a small scale. It functions very well, indeed, in a family situation, or even in a small group like a village. Someplace where everyone involved knows each other. When it is tried on a large scale it has _always_ failed, because everybody thinks that somebody else is paying all of the bills. Some anonymous, faceless person or persons is coughing up the big cash for your expensive operation or an extended leave of absence from work or whatever. Hey...the Government's got LOTSA money...THEY can pay for it! Hey it's FREE...why not use it...or abuse it!??

Well, guess what? WE ARE the government! WE pay the bills. And WE are not able to continue this charade without taxing everybody to death...and THAT results in a flight from this particular society. Or worse. It often results in extensive borrowing to pay the bills....and THAT leaves the interest ,and the debt, for a later generation.

That's a little different from the promise of capitalism...don't you think?


That is why socialism is failing in Cuba, and is dying out all over the world....and it's also why capitalism is replacing it every where you look. 

Check it out....and tell me I don't speak the truth.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Macnutt, I don't understand your fascination and trust in George W. I don't subscribe to the view that he didn't get elected fairly - that's water under the bridge and it's history. That said, I am never reassured by anything that George W. utters. The fact that he may have good speechwriters is beside the point. He doesn't come across as being a listener and his ineptitude in the arts of persuasion suggests he ignores advice he doesn't agree with. I've also yet to hear of one good idea or initiative from this administration. It's reactionary. His passing off of the Enron and WorldCom scandals suggests he is nervous of offending important friends and his persistence at singling out Iraq while the rest of the world points at many other problems indicates his single-mindedness.

Bush is only half way into his term. I hope he is able to demonstrate true statemanship - no one would wish the events of the past 14 months on any politician. In my view, being more dove-like and less hawkish in the face of world turmoil would take true courage for the President of the US.

P.S. Thanks for explaining the reason JC always looks in pain.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Jim...trust me when I say that I have no innate fascination with George W. He would not have been my first...or even my second choice if I had happened to be God during the time of the US elections. (although Dick Cheney would have been right up there in the top ten. Most Americans feel the same way about this....or, at least, they did at the time) 

But....given the alternative...I would say we made out allright, all things considered. And please don't mistake Dubya's Cabinet for mere "speech writers". It doesn't work that way in the US of A....and Dick Cheney is no soft touch, believe me! I used to work for an oilfield service company that he ran (NL/Baroid division of Halliburton Services) and I'm here to tell ya that this guy is crafty and _very_ smart! He is (like our late and not so lamented Pierre Trudeau) about four chess moves ahead of everyone else in the game. He is, most definitely, NOT the average lame duck US Vice President. This guy _knows_ what's happening and just how to deal with it. You BET George Jr. listens to him....and listens good. Everybody at Halliburton knew this guy was in a league of his own, trust me. So does George Jr.

Condoleeza Rice is also no slouch! She may just be one of the most intelligent and most well-informed individuals of her whole generation. Same goes for Colin Powell, and Rumsfeld, et al....All very experienced and canny players in this big game. It is truly a Republican 'wish list' of the perfect team to back George Jr. in order to fill in any gaps he may have (and there are MANY)...and to help him steer the big ship down the straight and narrow.

If it were a hockey team, then it would be an OLYMPIC CLASS hockey team. This is one of the main reasons that I think that things will turn out well in the end. No matter what George, himself, may try to do that is wrong. His crew won't let him screw up, and there is a whole lot more at stake than his own personal reputation. It is now a FAMILY thing! 

BTW-you Do know that there is another George Bush waiting in the wings, don't you? He is very young, very charismatic and very hispanic. His name is George P. Bush and he might just be a future candidate for president someday. A day, not so far off, when a third or more of the US electorate is of hispanic origin. Think about what this means to George W. and George Sr. and the rest of the clan. George W. is going to temper any ill-concieved and reckless moves with all of this in mind....and that is why he hasn't made any sudden attacks on Iraq yet. Despite all of the rhetoric. He has the best advisers that we could possibly hope for and a whole political dynasty that doesn't want him to screw up...won't LET him screw this up.

Al Gore would have been playing the appeasement game by now and stuff would be blowing up all around us. He would probably have been on ProZac and be hiding under the furniture by this point.

George W.....all things considered, is a godsend, by comparison.

Apparently, most of the American people share my views on this....as do a majority of Canadians, if the polls are any indication.

Will George Jr. get a second term? Hard to say at this point. If the election were to be held today, it would be a landslide, no question. Who knows where the votes will go in two years, though. Lots could happen between here and then. Too many variables to guess the outcome with any sort of certainty at this point.

I will say something about this though....if he has to go up against AL Gore, then I am predicting a clear majority for Bush, no matter what happens in the next two years.

Clearly, he was the best possible choice for these times. Despite his flaws (his MANY flaws) George is the right guy for the job right now. Especially when Al Gore was the only real alternative.

I shudder when I think of what Al Gore would have done during these difficult times. Imagine a cross between Jimmy Carter and Bill/Hillary Clinton....but without the clear and concise decision making(!?) abilities of either and with an even foggier vision of foriegn policy. ( is that even possible? Arf Arf) You could probably throw a little Captain Kangaroo into the mix and not be very far off, as well.

Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing....for what it's worth.

Who would YOU rather occupy the Whitehouse right now? George or AL? I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on this. Please feel free to speak out....

Or....we could get back to the subject of this thread and discuss exactly how and when to arrest Fidel Castro for his multitude of crimes against the Cuban people.


Say! I just had a thought! Perhaps CubaMark could switch the subject of his thesis to "Fidel in the 21st Century Reality" and use this forum to polish the final draft. Now THAT would be worth reading and posting about!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Nobody?? No comments on this? C'mon people...here's your chance to rip me apart with facts and evidence. 

If you can.


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## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by macnutt:
*...you know something....it's always the same guy running the show when the smoke clears and all of the votes are counted.

Doesn't that seem a bit odd to all of you?*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. It feels all too familiar. Take a look at our own country. Jean Cretin has been "in charge" for HOW long now? And do you think ther eis any chance that, barring him actually stepping down of his own free will, or dying, that we are going to see a different Prime Minister any time soon?

I think the only saving grace is that he is way too incompetant to be an effective dictator. That and we'd probably riot as a country. As a country, we may be easy-going, but even we have our limits...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I agree with you 100% when you note that we in Canada are in a near-dictatorial state, StrongBlade (and welcome back, by the way!)

This is partially a product of our political system which, as I have pointed out before, does not have a sober second body through which to filter all of the decisions sent down from on high by Commandante Cretien. He is from the "old school" of Trudeau era Liberals and does not allow any dissent among his back benchers or cabinet. His word is law. 

The Senate that we currently have has no power and is simply a retirement/reward for old Liberals. If the Senators were actually _elected_ by the people of Canada (and had real powers) instead of _appointed_ by Jean Cretien, then we might just see a different type of government here in the Great White North.

One that actually reflected how we, the people of Canada, really wanted to our country to be governed....instead of how one old corrupt man wants us to be governed.

And one that could actually censure or even REMOVE an obviously corrupt old man who had assumed near-dictatorial powers.

This is where I have to point out to everyone who is living in Central Canada that _you_ are the only people who can actually change this and give us a shot at real democracy. Outside of Central Canada, Jean Cretien and Co. have been coming in dead last in every Federal election since the early nineties. We in the West have been voting against his band of theives for a decade now....but still he remains. We have also wanted a Real Senate for a very long time...but he's not interested in sharing power with anyone.

There is only one party out there who are committed to giving Canadian voters a sober second body to moderate the dictatorial powers of the PMO. And it ain't the Federal Liberals!

Think about that the next time you vote in a Federal election. The rest of Canada is depending on you. We need a real democracy. We need it now.

You want a change? You have a vote.

USE IT!


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## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by macnutt:
*I agree with you 100% when you note that we in Canada are in a near-dictatorial state, StrongBlade (and welcome back, by the way!)*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks. Although I never actually left, I have just been very quiet over the past few months. My work schedule hasn't helped for posts either, but hopefully I will be more active again now.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Right on! We _need_ you around here as a sober second body to filter all of our many diverse thoughts and opinions...

(can't believe I just said that...I gotta quit snortin bug repellent)

BTW-still packin that rubber fish?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

So....just to get back on topic here....anybody care to hear some real evidence that the revoloution in Cuba was actually unnecessary? Want to hear how much better off Cubans would be today if Fidel had actually called the nationwide vote that he publicly promised all of them in 1961...instead of inflicting an ill-concieved form of Stalinism on those poor people for the last four decades? Would they be (as they are now) a very poor developing country, or would they be the richest most progressive country in the region...perhaps in all of Latin America?

Ever ask yourself why more than a million people have fled that island paradise since 1959.....and almost NOBODY left _before_ Fidel's "triumphant' revoloution? Wonder why that is?

You don't suppose that it just _might _ be because people aren't really very happy there, do you?

Anyone want to hear more? I have _lot's_ of hard data on this subject that I would like to present here for your consideration.

Fidel should be arrested. Immediately. For his crimes against the Cuban people, and for his crimes against the people of El Salvador, Guatemala, Angola and so many others. He was never elected to speak for, or act for, the Cuban people....and no one who examines the data can really believe that he honestly represents their best interests. There are no reliable polls to confirm that his interests are the same as those of his people. He won't allow them. He also won't allow any opposition parties to exist and has even had the audacity to pass laws that condemn the Cuban people to a socialist style government long after he is gone. It is currently _illegal_ for anything but a stalinist/socialist government to be sworn into power in Cuba. Forever. No matter what the people think or want.

Think he's just a benign old dictator who is truly harmless? Then go and see the big billboards outside of the major cities in Cuba that say "Socialism or DEATH"

There should be a third option.....

ARREST FIDEL!


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## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by macnutt:
*Right on! We need you around here as a sober second body to filter all of our many diverse thoughts and opinions...

(can't believe I just said that...I gotta quit snortin bug repellent)

BTW-still packin that rubber fish? *<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I can't believe you said that either. And yes, I am always armed with rubber aquatic wildlife of some kind. I've expanded my arsenal to include 3 trout, a bass, and an enchanted marlin.

As for Castro... Well, I can't say I am overly fond of the guy, but I also think we have far worse dictators out there... Saddam and Osama should probably be taken down first. But then, that's just my barely-educated opinion.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

An _enchanted marlin_??!?

Dare I even ask......?


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## Strongblade (Jul 9, 2001)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by macnutt:
*An enchanted marlin??!?

Dare I even ask......?*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a Marlin +3.

Does +3 damage and gives me +3 to hit.

I was going to get the optional heat-seeking feature (for better flame-war targetting) but the upgrade price was too steep.

Besides, I'm saving up for a Stealth Barracuda.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

There was a good well balanced History Channel look at Cuba just on. Just caught the last. The Cuban commentator reflected both viewpoints here. Things gained by the revolution, things lost. He thinks it's time to regain some of the aspirations to a better life WITHOUT losing the foundation of education and medical access.
Sounds like common sense instead of ideology.
If the US would just gets it's economic thumb off Cuba then the Cuban people can make their own destiny.
The US is as much to blame for the current situation as Castor is.
Ideology....bah.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

MacNutt wrote "Think about that the next time you vote in a Federal election. The rest of Canada is depending on you. We need a real democracy. We need it now.
You want a change? You have a vote.

USE IT!"

For who...sorry but your alternative has no cohesion at all. Now give me a coalition goverment of a liberal minority with both a strengthened NDP AND a common sense unbigoted western conservative element and you'll have me shouting hurrah.

Historically when the country has prospered Ontario has voted Conservative in the Province and Liberal Federal.
What we need is a regional government system - 5 regions with representation by popular vote - 50 seats per region- you get 40% of the popular vote you get 30 seats- not by winning in a riding by 1%.
Then we will get some new viewpoints and some dynamics.
Right now Ontario straddles mild versions of the two central ideologies with wider variations of ideologies in the rest of the country who really end up with little voice.
Ontario on it's own is the 11th largest economic power in the world. If Canada has to sleep beside the 900 lb US gorilla then the rest of Canada is bedded down on either side of the 300 lb Ontario gorilla.
I know this will get Macnutt going but I sincerely feel Martin will be very good for the country, he is a statesman, he doesn't have the "little guy" syndrome of Jean, he listens and very very important he has Quebec's ear and support.
That rift needs healing.
He has stated he wants to look at political reform.
He's proved himself to the country and on the world stage which even MacNutt can't deny. The other foreign finance ministers really respect Martin.
Bitch and whine all you like but he's a shoo in. Make the best of his willingness to listen.

I'm really concerned with Ontario - McGuinty strikes me as the worst combo of opportunistic politician and lawyer and while Eves has softened some of the harder aspects of the Common Sense Revolution...and I agree with much of what Mike Harris did....he is in a very difficult position on energy and ongoing excesses in the sector aren't helping.
The government is in a corner without an easy out.
Ontario Hydro needed reforming in the worst way - giving it to the private sector to do was NOT the right method.
I mean Eves just about straight out acknowledged it with the appointment of Bob Rae to the Hydro One board.
Now he's talking about rebates of a BILLION dollars.
Toronto has lots of problems, the provincial government is in corner. This big economic engine keeps rolling on but it's got some problems that requires a strong leader and there ain't one in sight I'm sad to say.;-(


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Actually, MacDoc, I agree with you that Paul Martin is a real statesman and I already have seen that he knows what he is doing. I honestly believe that he has Canada's best interests in mind....unlike some of the other Federal Liberals who would like to be King.

The problem I see is this:

Paul Martin will be "inheriting" a totally corrupt and well-entrenched group who will sabotage him early on if he does not allow them to continue operating the way that they have been for most of the last thirty years.

If he tries to make any real reforms then he will be shot down early on. Guaranteed. The big Liberal machine is addicted to the graft that they have been getting for a very long time now. It would be the same as if Tony Soprano's sucessor sat down with the whole "family" and said "we will NOT break the law any more....even if it means we don't get to make the big bucks anymore"

Think that is actually going to happen? Not likely.

Plus....and this is a BIG plus....

The Liberals, even under Paul Martin, are not planning to share power with the people of Canada by setting up a real elected and independant Senate.

The Liberals have copied their best ideas from the Reform/Alliance party, but they WON'T be copying this one, fer sure! They don't want to share power with ANYBODY! Especially the stupid voters! What do they really know anyway? Heck....you only have to seduce them into voting for you once every five years or so, and then you can go ahead and do whatever you want....without worrying about being second-guessed or even removed from power by a secondary house that answers directly to the people of Canada. And isn't actually _appointed_ by whomever is currently running the Federal Liberals.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Give them a vacation....and let us get a real taste of actual democracy in this country for a change! We deserve it!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

A footnote here on Cuba (which was, I believe, the original topic of this thread)....

I think that you are probably right. Most Cubans would like to see the high standards of education and good (free) medical care continue while moving forward into the modern world. Without Castro and all of the repression.

No one knows how this could be accomplished, unfortunately.

Cuban doctors and teachers get paid a miniscule wage (between fifty cents and a dollar per day), and are not generally allowed to leave the country. Without the low paid teachers then there would not be a large amount of doctors coming out of their universities. Both would leave in droves if the borders were open to easy travel by Cuban citizens. That would end both the education system (as they currently know it) and the "free" universal medical care. Both exist in an artificial, captive situation.

Cuba has an enormous amount of catching up to do. The infrastructure is in shambles....just as it was in the old Soviet Union. For the very same reasons. The Soviets didn't have a "US embargo" to blame for all of their shortcomings, and Cuba can't lay all of it's troubles at the feet of America either. 

Cuba trades openly with Canada and more than one hundred other countries. Even the US is now selling Cuba lots of food and other items. The problem is this.....Cuba still works with a central planning system and that has NEVER worked! EVER! Not in ANY country in the world! It guarantees long lineups, shortages and poverty for the people who are forced to live under it. Note here that NO group has ever voted to re-instate that flawed system of supply. Not even once. 

Does that tell you something?

Cuba is almost all farmland. Go there and see. There are very few untouched wild areas and it's mostly flat with a long (almost perpetual) growing season, lots of rainfall, tropical sunshine and decent soil. And yet they can't possibly feed themselves! They have to buy large quantities of food on the open market with scarce US dollars that could be better spent on bringing their infrastructure into the twenty-first century. The old Soviet Union, depite all of their vast farmlands, was also unable to feed their own people. They had to spend signifigant amounts of scarce cash each year buying food from other countries. The state-run agricultural collectives are enormously inefficient and most of the food that is sold in the local farmers markets (the food that actually keeps the Cubans from STARVING to death) is produced by private farmers. Just like in the old Soviet Union. 

Does this indicate to you that central planning doesn't work....or is it because the USA is somehow at fault? Think about it. One system produces abundance and the other can't even feed themselves at a subsistence level. No matter how much land area is cultivated. 

The infrastructure in Cuba is so out of date and so broken down that it would take the better part of a decade just to string enough phone lines so that all Cubans could have the luxury of one single telephone per house! The electrical systems are so screwey that the government actually publishes schedules for "illuminations"....that's the short time each day when the power will actually be turned ON! Outside of Havana and the tourist hotels, Cuba is without electricity for most of each day. And it's not getting any better.

Compare this to the country that, in 1957, had more TV sets and more cars per capita than ITALY! A country where 57% of the citizens lived better than anyone else in Latin America. A country that enjoyed better literacy rates than seventy-five per cent of the other countries in the WORLD. A country that was known as "the Paris of the Caribbean" A country where more Corvettes were sold per capita than the United States! A country that almost no one ever tried to escape from.

BEFORE Fidel and his "triumphant" revoloution. 

That was Cuba. Before the revoloution. It was poised to become a very rich and influential power in the Latin world. It was ALREADY one of the richest and most influential Latin countries in the world.If Fidel had not appeared on the scene they would have, by now, been past the "developing country" state. Chile was almost in the same situation forty years ago and had a similar land area and population. Chile is almost ready to exceed the United Kingdom in their standard of living. Think about what that means in the Latin world.

Cuba remains desperately poor and undernourished. It's people are not allowed any of the simple freedoms that everyone else in the world takes for granted.. Under Fidel, they will NEVER move past the "developing country" state.

It's all too easy to blame someone else for the despair that is a part of daily life in Cuba. There really is only one person to blame. Fidel.

He must be arrested...now!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

MacNutt we can move this to another topic but you still don't give a viable alternative to Martin nor do you give a viable alternative for Cuba.
It's a sovereign state.
You are being a terrorist in advocating this course of action........


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I think we should start a new thread on this "Paul Martin or not" question. I will only say one more thing on this subject here and that is in answer to your question of possible alternatives.

There are at least two other parties that have a viable chance of defeating the Federal liberals in the next election. (I don't really think that the NDP or PQ are truly able to gather the necessary votes to form even a coalition government. Same goes for the Rhino party and Greens)

The alternatives are the Progressive Conservatives and the Alliance. Reform/Alliance has provided almost all of the good ideas that the Liberals have had in the last decade, and they are committed to giving us an Elected, Equal and Effective Senate. We need this to prevent the sort of abuses and corruption that is currently dominating Parliament Hill.

The Progressive Conservatives are barely a blip on the political map right now, but with the right leader an awful lot of people would switch over. From ALL of the other parties. The things they took the most flak for last time around....the GST and Free Trade....are still with us. The Liberals haven't changed any of it (even though that was a basic campaign promise of theirs) and much of Canada's current good economic performance (not to mention our newly-balanced budget) can be traced back to these very controversial policies implemented under Brian Mulroney's PC government.

Or you could vote for the same old dreck that we have now....with a brand new face on it. Behind the scenes everything will be pretty much the same....and we STILL won't have a true democracy except on voting day.

Your choice.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

On to Fidel.

It's an interesting question....this idea of "Sovreign States". Certainly Cuba, and Iraq for that matter, are sovreign states. But the men that have seized power in those sovreign states are , most certainly, not sovreign. They both rule with an iron fist and will not allow any dissent. The people of both countries are being held hostage by an unelected leader who has taken them down some pretty rough roads. The Iraqis are almost certainly ready for a change. We know that the majority of Cubans are as well.

Witness the thousands that brave the Florida straits each year trying to escape from Cuba. Cuba has a lottery each year where twenty thousand people are allowed to leave the country legally. Last year almost half a million people applied to get their names on that lottery. Over one million have already left.

It wasn't because of the bad weather, either.

What's more, the Cuban Constitution (drafted by Fidel, of course) allows for a petition to be submitted to the National Assembly to voice the demands of the people. The petition requires at least ten thousand names before it can be submitted. Such a petition has already been signed by way more than ten thousand Cubans asking for a real democracy. These people risked all sorts of abuse and the curtailing of the already precious few freedoms that they now have....just to put their names on a petition that they suspected Fidel would ignore. 

So far, he has ignored it. No surprise there.

Many of the Cubans who signed the petition have suffered serious reprisals from the military and police. But they remain firm on this question. They WANT a real chance to be heard. They want to change the way that their country and economy is being run.

They won't get it as long as Fidel clings to power.

So the question remains. Is an unelected leader who inflicts mayhem on his own people and destroys the economic viability of a whole country a legitimate head of state? Or is he just a criminal who holds a whole country hostage by force of arms? 

Would you consider it terrorism to remove the criminal and restore the country to the will of it's own people? What if the people of that country, both by their own actions and petitions, were _asking_ the rest of the world to help them regain control of their own destiny?

The people of Cuba are. Go live there and see for yourself.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Oh, MacNutt... how am I ever going to get any work done if you keep posting this stuff?

Cuba's sovereignty is an important example for the rest of the developing world. It shows, as James Wolfhson, president of the World Bank, once noted, that one can achieve significant levels of development in important sectors like health, education, social security, etc., without having to be tied to the intrustive and destructive "remedies" put out there by the global development & financial institutions.

I have already posted my reply to your allegation that Cuba is undemocratic, and would rather not fill up EhMac's servers with more of the same. Readers may refer to earlier posts.



> quote:
> Witness the thousands that brave the Florida straits each year trying to escape from Cuba. Cuba has a lottery each year where twenty thousand people are allowed to leave the country legally. Last year almost half a million people applied to get their names on that lottery. Over one million have already left.


I thought that I had settled this one. (a) Cuban economic migrants are no different in character than those from any other Latin American country, except (as the poor Haitians know too well) in their treatment by the U.S., which welcomes each and every Cuban with open arms (see "Cuban Adjustment Act"). This is an incentive for cuban migrants to risk death in the Florida Straits. The U.S. is even more complicit in the deaths of Cuban rafters because the U.S. refuses to issue the agreed-upon numbers of legal migration visas to applicants in Cuba. Ultimately the U.S. can point to the evening newscast and its video of these "desperate Cubans 'escaping' Castro's tyranny" when in fact it is a manufactured phenomenon used by the State department to further a foreign policy objective and justify continued hard-line policies such as the embargo. End of story.

The petition you mention, sponsored by the "Varela project," which is one of the many small (1-2 person) "dissident" organizations, is an attempt by one of those small groups to gain greater international recognition than do their competitors in this game of "which foreign journalist / U.S. politician will see me this week?".

Certainly it is a legal right of the Cuban people to submit a petition to the National Assembly. Guess what... it has been submitted. The National Assembly is dealing with it, discussing it. It has not been ignored. What is typical of outsiders is that they see something like this petition, and with their pre-conceived (and incorrect) assessment of the situation, expect the government to fall overnight, which of course it won't. The cuban parliament, made up of representatives of the people, will discuss the petition and the dissatisfaction among a portion of the population that it represents. Actions will be taken that are well-considered and appopriate. What exactly did you expect?



> quote:
> Many of the Cubans who signed the petition have suffered serious reprisals from the military and police. But they remain firm on this question. They WANT a real chance to be heard. They want to change the way that their country and economy is being run.


Prove it. I recieve close to a hundred emails a day on Cuba, from a wide variety of sources. There have been no allegations... unless you are reading CANF's website? By the way, CANF (Cuban American National Foundation) is a supposed "non-profit, non-governmental" organization which was established by the administration of Ronald Reagan. There have been allegations and calls for an investigation into CANF's finances, since it received money from the government to operate, and then turned around and funnelled that money into Republican candidate's campaign coffers. 



> quote:
> So the question remains. Is an unelected leader who inflicts mayhem on his own people and destroys the economic viability of a whole country a legitimate head of state? Or is he just a criminal who holds a whole country hostage by force of arms?


As stated before, Fidel *is* elected. Just because it's not a slanderous, media-hyped, million-dollar campaign battle doesn't mean that it is an undemocratic system. Some see it as more democratic given that it is impossible to "buy" the election.



> quote:
> Would you consider it terrorism to remove the criminal and restore the country to the will of it's own people? What if the people of that country, both by their own actions and petitions, were asking the rest of the world to help them regain control of their own destiny?


Even the CIA and the INS admit that the majority of Cubans support Fidel and his government. When you say "the will of it's own people", are you referring to Cuban-AMERICANS in Miami?



> quote:
> The people of Cuba are. Go live there and see for yourself.


Been there. Done that. Many times personally since 1994. Once for a period of four months, living with friends, travelling the country, enjoying the famous Cuban hospitality. Arguing politics, loudly, without anyone being fearful of being overheard by the "secret police". Wonderful country. Wonderful people. Yes, everyone - go there yourselves!



> quote:
> Cuban doctors and teachers get paid a miniscule wage (between fifty cents and a dollar per day), and are not generally allowed to leave the country.


Again, MacNutt, we have covered this ground before. The "miniscule wage" is comparatively far more when one considers the ration card goods, the low (if any) rents, the free medical care and education, etc. etc. As for international travel, as I stated, Doctors are required to "pay back" the state's expenditures on their education by serving the nation, working in clinics and hospitals, fulfilling their roles within the highly-praised Cuban health care system.

Let me pose a question: If being a doctor is such a horrible thing in Cuba, why do so many Cuban youth bother becoming doctors? Could it be that they are motivated by something other than money.. like providing service to their nation and their people? (Or are you going to play the cynic, and say that they're all just waiting until Fidel's gone so they can jump ship to the U.S. and get that Beemer they've had their eye on?)



> quote:
> Cuba has an enormous amount of catching up to do.


Funny... from what I've read, they're actually teaching other people who need to do some catching up. Cuba is exporting knowledge of organic agriculture and urban agriculture to Mexico and other Latin American nations. Cuban vaccines for certain types of hepatitis and meningitis, among others, are sold at cost to developing nations (for a profit to western nations) because no one else in the world has been able to duplicate their successes. York Medical (A Canadian firm) was formed to market Cuban medical advances in this country, and someday in the U.S. Smith-Kline-Beecham has a deal with Cuba to do clinical trials on other cuban vaccines, with a future market in the U.S.



> quote:
> The infrastructure is in shambles....just as it was in the old Soviet Union. For the very same reasons. The Soviets didn't have a "US embargo" to blame for all of their shortcomings, and Cuba can't lay all of it's troubles at the feet of America either.


Actually, the most respected analysis of the Soviet Union's collapse can be summed up very easily: They were outspent by the West under the arms race. Untold billions of rubles lost in a stupid contest for global domination. The USSR was flat broke by the time the wall fell. It was inevitable. No "embargo" needed.... 



> quote:
> Cuba trades openly with Canada and more than one hundred other countries. Even the US is now selling Cuba lots of food and other items. The problem is this.....Cuba still works with a central planning system and that has NEVER worked! EVER! Not in ANY country in the world!


I'm reallllly getting tired of repeating arguments. The embargo is not just the fact that the U.S. doesn't trade with Cuba. Look at what has already happened due to the embargo: Canadian executives with Sherritt, Inc. (An Alberta (?) company) face JAIL if they enter the U.S., due to that company's business dealings in Cuba. Helluva disincentive to invest / trade, eh? And thats in Canada... imagine those countries who have, shall we say, lesser ability to resist U.S. pressure? And then there are the incredibly higher shipping costs, because cargo vessels from Europe and Africa are forbidden to stop in a U.S. port for six months after they dock in Cuba. They can't maximize efficiences on their routes... a ship goes to Cuba, it might as well go back home, 'cause it can't go to the States... This is an irrefutable fact, and it is criminal of those who continue to harp on the "Cuba can trade with everyone else" mantra to ignore reality.



> quote:
> Cuba is almost all farmland. [SNIP] And yet they can't possibly feed themselves!


During the worst years of the "special period" (mid-1990s), Cuba was unable to import sufficient quantities of oil, and almost no spare parts, to keep trucks and tractors running. They produced enough food by resorting to Oxen to plow their fields, but could not move the food to the cities where the majority of the population lives. What did they do? Read the "Food First Foundation"'s report on Cuba's incredible transformation in agricultural practice. Rather than fertilizers, they went organic, with great results. Getting food to the cities? Cuba now leads the way in urban gardens... Havana now produces more than 45% of its produce within the city limits, an unheard-of example of growing self-sufficiency.



> quote:
> The infrastructure in Cuba is so out of date and so broken down that it would take the better part of a decade just to string enough phone lines so that all Cubans could have the luxury of one single telephone per house! The electrical


You might want to go back and read the latest issues of Cuba Business. The telephone system has added hundreds of thousands of new lines in the last few years, and despite what you might guess, those have not all been in the capital nor in the tourist area. There is an equitable development process that ensures the rural areas are upgraded in tune with the urban areas. Cuba is developing - feel free to gloat that they are only able to do it through joint ventures with foreign capital, but at least they are developing their country by being in control of the process, not through the rapid and destructive privatization rage that has decimated the rest of Latin America.



> quote:
> "illuminations"....that's the short time each day when the power will actually be turned ON! Outside of Havana and the tourist hotels, Cuba is without electricity for most of each day. And it's not getting any better.


MacNutt, when were you last in Cuba? It's been years since this was the case. 



> quote:
> Compare this to the country that, in 1957, had more TV sets and more cars per capita than ITALY! A country where 57% of the citizens lived better than anyone else in Latin America.


Who owned those TV sets? Who owned those cars? The 57% who lived better than anyone else in Latin America were living better because they owned everything. The poor black and mulatto wage-labourers who worked on the very seasonal schedule of the sugar harvest sure as h___ didn't live like that. Statistics can be extremely deceiving if one doesn't include the other side of the coin.



> quote:
> A country that was known as "the Paris of the Caribbean"


Funny... I've never heard it described like that. "Whorehouse of the Caribbean" - now that, I've heard. Guess we move in different circles?



> quote:
> A country that almost no one ever tried to escape from.


Where would they go? The Cuban Adjustment Act wasn't in place back then.... no instant citizenship when setting foot upon U.S. soil. 



> quote:
> That was Cuba. Before the revoloution. It was poised to become a very rich and influential power in the Latin world. It was ALREADY one of the richest and most influential Latin countries in the world.


Sure... rich (one layer of society, at least). Run by the mafia. Their political activities overseen by the U.S. (who provided at least one of their leaders, helped draft Cuba's constitution (the old one), and wrote in their de facto ownership of the Guantanamo naval base). Yep, a real nice, dominated, unsovereign, country.



> quote:
> Cuba remains desperately poor and undernourished.


No. Haiti remains desperately poor and undernourished. The people who live in the shantytowns outside the capitals of America's 'friends' (aka "clients") in the region are poor and undernourished. Cubans are in a far better situation than the majority of their neighbours. You cannot point to the average income of country (x) as proof that Cubans are worse off, when the disparity between rich and poor is neglected.



> quote:
> It's people are not allowed any of the simple freedoms that everyone else in the world takes for granted.


Did you hear the latest? The new Press Freedom global survey is out. The U.S. came in 17th. Interesting...

Fidel? History will absolve him.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Where is the emoticon for a huge round of applause for CubaMark.

MacNutt in my eyes you are losing this debate big time. Partly I think you simply appear far too polemic and therefore parroting the US party line...doesn't sit right with this Canuck who is very very leery of the US and it's culture.

The Yanks have had one of the bloodiest histories ever given their short time as a major power. 
Roosevelt took central planning to new heights pulling the US out of the Depression. Monumental national works in planning and executing parks, dams and employment. And both the US and Britain were essentially run by about 8 people ( those in the Magic/Enigma loop) for the duration fo WWII and they undertook far terrific restrictions of human rights and travel.
Cuba has essentially been in a cold war with the US, a very unequal war, and yet has done quite well given the conditions. Many world wise friends have visited Cuba over the last few years and not one had a negative experience or comment. I'm going to be a visitor soon and I look forward to it..


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