# HDTV/HD Televisions



## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

Anyone out here aboard on this initiative?? As much as I want to get the set, I just don't like how they display the regular signal: the black bands on the side, the stretched look and whatever else they do w/ a non HD signal are not that hot.

But on top of that, they're making the sets so attractive to purchase: their new pricing is on a downward sprial. 

Ironically, the G&M just had a good piece in today's paper. 

Not in a hurry on the programming, but I do like the sets. I've been trying to convice myself not to get one though.... But I am sick of the CRTs. Do you know how heavy they are?? Plus, their footprint rivals only GodZilla's. Had to take my 27" in for a repair recently and I nearly fainted... 

Anyhow, just looking for some comments/experience out here. 

H!


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

I would love to get a flat panel TV. But the reality is that when put side by side with a CRT style TV there is no comparison in 
Quality.
The difference, for me, is still as dramatic as the difference between NTSC and HDTV. Not so dramatic with smaller LCD's though. It is a matter of time before flats are as good as CRT but my first HD purchase will be CRT. Flats seem more status than substance.


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

Hello,

Somehow I doubt I'll be upgrading from my free 13" mono Sanyo TV with bunny ears any time soon. It's funny that the TV is smaller than my iBook screen or my wife's eMac. I guess we have _other_ priorities.

James


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

> I would love to get a flat panel TV. But the reality is that when put side by side with a CRT style TV there is no comparison in Quality.


iPetie, I find that hard to believe. I have a 14" flat screen Toshiba stereo TV in my motor home, and its picture puts any of the other three CRTs I own to shame. (CRTs: 27", 13" and 6".)

As far as I am concerned, "flat's where it's at"!

Cheers


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## Carex (Mar 1, 2004)

james_squared, that sounds familiar. Should have seen the look on the kids face at Radio Shack when we went looking for rabbit ears a couple of years ago. ????? We get 5 channels, two of them a little fuzzy at times. I don't miss TV and haven't had cable for many years. I of course don't get to participate in many 'cultural' conversations about reality TV and Idol shows, but you know what, I DON'T GIVE A FLYING UKNOWWHAT about it.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Oops, and here I sit with a GPS satellite locating dish in my motor home so I can get 500 channels where ever I am.

Mind you, being retired, I have two or three hours a day with nothing to do!

Incidentally, I never met a reality show I could stand. 'Cept maybe Candid Camera when it was a b & w newsreel in the theatre at the Saturday matinee.

Cheers


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

> iPetie, I find that hard to believe. I have a 14" flat screen Toshiba stereo TV in my motor home, and its picture puts any of the other three CRTs I own to shame. (CRTs: 27", 13" and 6".)


Yes Sinc, 
I also qualified that the smaller LCD's were pretty good. But I challenge you to go to a retailer and look at a 42" Flat and CRT showing an HDTV (signal is important, must be HD)signal. You will be shocked by what you see. Regular NTSC signal, they will look the same.

That's why the Tube, plasma's and projection are never together or side by side. Well, never say never I suppose.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Aha, yet another retailing trick to be wary of, eh what?

Cheers


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Right now the sets are better than the media  
Even HDTV is still only about 50% of the quality a full 1080i can display.

I've been dealing with HD since 1982 when I saw my first sets.  
22 years later the sets are phenomenal but there is not enough media in my mind and DVDs don't come close to HD quality.

There is a ton of info here

http://digitalhomecanada.com/forum/index.php

and echoing the sentiments above there are in my mnd only two technologies to consider.
CRT either rear projection ( best for the money right now - as low as $1200 for a terrific 40=45" sets ) or direct view ( expensive but stunning.

or

DLP - go into any high end sotre with HD and look a DLP and you'll see why it won Best New Technology for last year from Pop Sci.
Just astounding and getting better with some new antialiasing tricks BUT

not enough material. If you can eke out your owl set for a year do so.
If not opt for a decent $1300-$2k crt based unit and for sure get HD in your area - it's cheap now.

The newer sets have excellent filters for poor signals but the best setup is upscaling from the HD receiver. It's a trick but it works. Make sure you get the best HD/digital box you can from the supplier and DON'T buy it.

I see a low cost upscale DVD unit is out - that would a good buy - I'm sourcing one myself.

It's all getting there but it's waiting in blue light DVDs.  

But be careful, these toys are not cheap and you may well be disappointed.
Having a CRT professionally calibrated a week or so after purchase is also worthwhile tho many are pretty good these days at alignment.

One of the best things with the DLP technology they are soooooo crisp and bright with deep blacks. Text looks painted on the screen


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

It looks to me like the DLP sets are already starting to take the market by storm. A year ago, the only one you could find was samsung and they cost a fortune. Now, you can find the 3rd generation samsung, panasonic, toshiba, LG, RCA and more and the price has plummetted, now about twice the price of a low end rear projection CRT, and maybe 25% more than a better quality one. I bet these prices intersect by next spring.

I have seen DLP side by side with RP CRT, and I think the DLP blows them away - brighter whites, better contrast, no sign of a scan line, phenominally clean diagonal lines with no sign of jaggies, and very rich vibrant colours. Finally, the boxes are a fraction of the size an weight.

I would wait until the next generation of DLPs, or longer, but I believe DLPs and/or LCOS sets will be the predominent technology in large screen sets by this time next year, and RP CRT sets will be disappearing.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The one reason I think you are wrong on CRT/RP is longevity of the light source.
It works, and the sources last for a long time.

DLP and others have light source life issues that are NOT small change.
RP benefits from the same screen improvements DLP benefits from. It just uses a more long lived and proven light source.
That counts in my mind.

There are new RPs that are only 7" deep.  

ALL TVs will be HD enabled shortly - there is zero reason to buy anything that is not right now ( short of the tiny sets ).

Just don't jump for the big goodies quite yet.
A CRT or CRT/RP is a good long lived cost effective purchase that WILL blow the average TV viewer away with the right source at an amazing low price.

I guess one clear piece of advice, get your source figured out first. Sound, HD, DVD even room lighting and seating make the experience.
Even the best screen looks and sounds awful with a poor source and a cheap sound set.

It's all part of the revolution that is slowly getting here........22 years........sigh.









But don't jump off the deep end......just yet.  

Cuz here be......


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

> The one reason I think you are wrong on CRT/RP is longevity of the light source.
> It works, and the sources last for a long time.


Yes and no. You have an important point that the lamp in a DLP will burn out afer a few 1000 hours of use. These cost a few 100 to replace. On the other hand, the picture will be as bright on the day the lamp burns out, as on the day you brought it home. CRT (and plasma) burn in, so the picture gradually deteriorates and dims from use.

The 7" deep sets are not, I'm almost 100% sure, CRT based. Either DLP, LCD or LCOS.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

MMmmmmm burn in on a CRT is very marginal compared to other benefits and the technology is very well proven.
You may be right on the crt projection depths, but super thin is over played in my mind.....as it is on the desktop.

I think people are unaware of the costs of light system replacement. DLP is in the 10k range I think - still not a huge life.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Like others on this thread I recently had to do a side by side comparison and plasma/LCD lose out big time except when shown specific sources (e.g. pixar films) on very large screen sizes.

I live in a small place so I was keen to get a flat screen, but the quality just wasn't there. In the end I got a very good deal on a 16x9 with digital tuner. Probably the best picture you can get get outside DLP. I am now considering a DLP projector on the ceiling with electric projection screen so that both can be made invisible when not in use. Issues around location, tuner etc. slow the process down but we'll get there...

Also, I read in a techno review a few months ago that Philips had patented what looked like the next big leap in LCD-type screens. In a sotre near you within 3 years


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

wow...


still confused, I know about Plasma, LCD but can someone define DLP for me?? A friend who deals with flat panels for show all the time suggested against looking @ Plasma as he said that they die faster than LCDs (?!!?), and were always being sent to the shop.

Re: sidexside, providing that you have the HD signal, these flats are  - just stunning. Spent a little while @ the Sony store. This is the deal that had me thinking:

This deal: 










42" Grand Wega + a $600 shelf, and DVD-Recorder and 24 month of Express vu= $3999. 

I need none of the bonus additives, and would simply sell them off. 

Thoughts?

H!


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

> DLP - go into any high end sotre with HD and look a DLP and you'll see why it won Best New Technology for last year from Pop Sci


I fully agree with your comment on DLP.

I've been eying these puppies for some time now and I have decided that my next TV purchase will be a DLP TV.

I was looking for a massive screen and here's what I found:










Samsung
HLP6163W
61" Widescreen HD DLP TV

Features

TV/Video
DLP (Digital Light Processing) TV
    - Compact Light-Weight Design - Fits Where Others Won't

Samsung Cinema Smooth Gen 3 HD Third Generation Light Engine
    - Single Panel Digital Micro-Mirror Device (DMD) Design for a Crystal Clear
      Picture without any possibility of convergence errors
    - High Output 0.55" DLP Technology by Texas Instruments
    - Smooth Film-Like Pixel Free Images
    - 1500:1 Contrast Ratio with Outstanding colour and Deep Black Levels
    - 30% Quieter Operation (48db)

Samsung's Latest Generation DNIe Video Enhancer
Samsung's Cinema Smooth Film-Mode 3:2 Pull Down powered by Genesis
1280 x 720 Digital Format converter for all inouts
New HDMI and DVI input for True digital Performance
No Screen Aging or Burn-in Effects for worry-free enjoyment
Audio
30 Watts Stereo Audio System with SRS TruSurround XT

MSRP: $5,699.99

Of course a purchase like this won't be until HDTV really becomes standard. Right not there are not enough channels to justify getting a new TV.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

Ohenri,

DLP = Digital Light Processing.

It is the same technology that high end ceiling mounted projectors use. However, this technology is fairly new in TV's. But it is still proven technologt.

DLP produces vivid colours and deep blacks. personally I think it is better than Plasma or LCD any day. And far cheaper too.


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## sketch (Sep 10, 2004)

If I was in the need to buy a new tv (I use an old CRT), I wouldn't buy the widescreens until they fixed the problem with burn-in since all the tv shows are in 4:3 format. I'm also an avid golden age cartoon collector so most of my DVDs are in 4:3 format.

A cousin of mine has a widescreen tv and he's fine with stretching the 4:3 picture. I can't help but think that all that money and technology is put to waste to get a distorted image.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Ooohhh, one of my favourite topics, HDTV. I got my rear projection Toshiba 51" CRT HDTV 2 years ago which was a bit early as HDTV was just making it's inroads in the Canada market. But once you've gone to HDTV, you'll never go back. The picture is so sharp, crisp, and colorful. I think the first thing I started recognizing was the color of the actor's eyes and the detail in the picture. This fall I finally bought Roger's HDTV PVR which now allows me to record HD content which is great when I'm watching one show and there's another show on, or I'm not at home. And the PVR works great with Roger's interactive guide. So I'm now fully set up in HDTV. HDTV content from the various Canadian broadcasters is getting better although, I'm sure for most programs they are just funnelling the HD signal from the US source channel through their channel. CTV, Global, City-TV, Discovery and TMN all have HD channels. CBC seems to be the only holdout. All US channels are HD now. I hear there is also talk of movies coming out in HD on DVD, either through HD-DVD or Blu-ray DVD.

As for what HDTV's do with standard definition pictures, well, it's getting much better. HDTV seem to be able to "stretch" the picture without it really looking stretched in my opinion and they seem to be able to clean up the picture a bit more than regular TVs. I'd say I watch about 70% HD and 30% SD - prime time is all in HD. The 30% is stuff like the Learning Channel, Space Channel, and some other stuff.

I also noticed that most stores have bad cable signals and sometimes the TVs aren't set up properly so it's really hard to see what an HDTV is going to give you when you see it in a store.

[ December 07, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Kosh ]


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

There is no "burn in " issue and zoom is not stretch. Zoom fills the entire screen with a bit clipped top and bottom.
Many TV shows are now 16:9 or 14:9. Many movies are also in differing formats - TVs an DVD players accommodate.

I'd stay off both LCD and Plasma for different reasons.

The WEGA is terrific but that's a lot of money. I'd check out the Toshiba Cinema wide at less than half the price for a 42" - on an HD feed you'll be astonished.

It also depends a lot on ambience lighting and room size as to the correct set.
Do some more homework - personally I would NOT drop $4k right now tho the SONY is good the DLP is better in the same price range.
The SONY will likely last a long time however with good results.

I just question $4k as start point when $1.5k on HD will blow you away and you then have funds for the source.  

••••

Kosh has a very accurate assessment - I also have a Toshiba CRT/RP 42"- they are leaders in cost/performance.
It's stunning already and neither of us have seen it in 1080i which it is capable of but there are no current sources for.

His mix is about the same as mine - 70% HD. Some channels like NatGeo are terrific even when not on HD - sports on HD is amazing - others like OLN suck.

It's funny to see some of the shifting sizes on HD as stations try to get commercials and programs and their own feed working together


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

> It's funny to see some of the shifting sizes on HD as stations try to get commercials and programs and their own feed working together


Yeah, I get a laugh out if it too. On some channels, if you leave the black bars on the right and left, the width of the black bars will be about 3 inches, on other channels the black bars will be 1.5 inches (about half the size), on some other channel the right and left bar are different sizes.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

> I also noticed that most stores have bad cable signals and sometimes the TVs aren't set up properly so it's really hard to see what an HDTV is going to give you when you see it in a store.


Are you referring to big box stores? if so, I would stay away from them. Like you said, the TV's aren't set up properly so it is hard to get an accurate representation of what the TV is really like.

If I were to spend that kind of money I would go to a speciality shop where they have a knowledgeable sales staff. I usually shop at East Hamilton Radio. They have always treated me right, no matter what I was purchasing. And they stand behind what they sell.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I would agree for spending big $$ go to a specialist.

That said Best Buy's have a good feed and it's real easy to see the difference with say DLP. It just knocks you out.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

Well, I have read that a CRT is down to 50% brightness after 30K hours. For most people that would be many years. If it is linear and you lose 25% after 15K hours, that would be 10 years at 4 hrs a day.

What would be more of a concern for me would be those stupid badges that every network now shows at the bottom corner of the screen all the time, and the grey bars during 3:4 viewing. These could cause uneven burn in more quickly.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

> I wouldn't buy the widescreens until they fixed the problem with burn-in since all the tv shows are in 4:3 format.


Burn in only affects phosphor based sets (plasma or sets with CRTs). No burn in with LCD, DLP or LCOS.

I saw 50" DLPs advertised at future shop last wkend for $3.8k, including a $500 gift certificate. $4k for a 42" sony, with stuff you don't want, doesn't seem like a good deal in comparison. I bet 42" DLP is under $2,000 by this time next year. The prices have been plummeting.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

[No message]


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The grey bars aren't on too often and I and others I know use the zoom to eliminate them for many programs.

Badges are annoying but many now dissolve and most are in different spots PLUS rear projector CRTS are not subject to burn in as far as I know, Screens will yellow and age over time - but look how badly an LCD shifts.

Again it's a cost/benefit curve. As DLP costs drop and life span lengthens that's the technology that's my pick.....just not yet.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

> Are you referring to big box stores? if so, I would stay away from them. Like you said, the TV's aren't set up properly so it is hard to get an accurate representation of what the TV is really like.
> 
> If I were to spend that kind of money I would go to a speciality shop where they have a knowledgeable sales staff.


Yes, I was referring more to big box stores and department stores. Sears in my area is really bad. They have these beautiful big beasts out with surround sound and then have the worst TV signal I've ever seen. How are you goin' to sell that? They'd be better to play a DVD. Most specialty stores seemd to be okay. For example, Sony, I just didn't want to mention Sony because their stuff is rather expensive.



> Burn in only affects phosphor based sets (plasma or sets with CRTs). No burn in with LCD, DLP or LCOS.


True. But the thing with LCD and DLP sets is they haven't been around for long and haven't proven themselves yet. The CRT sets are old proven tech and you know what to expect from them in 5-8 years. LCD and DLP haven't been out more than 1 or 2 years. I'm not saying they aren't good.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

> But the thing with LCD and DLP sets is they haven't been around for long and haven't proven themselves yet. The CRT sets are old proven tech and you know what to expect from them in 5-8 years. LCD and DLP haven't been out more than 1 or 2 years.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but DLP has been around for some time in the stand alone projectors.

The only difference between the projector and the set is the manner in which the light is reflected.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yes DLP has been a long term Texas Instrument technology I've been following for years.
Absolutely brilliant piece of engineering.
It scales up as well to theatre size.
All the Digital theatres are DLP.

It's my choice of new technology - CRT my choice for value/long life.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

> Yes DLP has been a long term Texas Instrument technology I've been following for years.


That's good to know, if I'm ever looking for a new TV - besides the new Toshiba 51" HDTV I have, I still have an old tiny 4:3 RCA 27" (I can't watch it anymore, now that I'm used to the HDTV). I read a paper magazine lately, describing the 3-4 technologies, and I thought it said this was fairly new tech, but maybe I got it mixed up with the LCD or maybe they meant it's new in TVs, like Maxpower said.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

Gotta love ehMac....

Getting some excellent direction & needed info here. Sounds like DLP is what I need to look @, Funny thing is that not too many retailers I cam across ever listed DLP as the TVs feature - making me believe that they were far and gew between, Until I took @ look a recent BayBloorAudio pullout. They have a few DLPs. 

Will investigate more. But pls, by all means, more input!







.

H!


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Last time I went to a one of the big block stores, I think most rear-porjection HDTVs were DLP. You'll notice quite a difference between CRT and DLP rear-projection HDTVs. CRT rear-projection HDTVs are 19 - 25" in depth. DLPs seem to be less than 18" in depth.


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## rollee (Feb 26, 2003)

i had the sony 50" DLP for 10 days now. all i can say is its amazing, the contrast, colours and detail is simply so outstanding. the picture is so bright.
before this i have never thought to spend so much on a tv which i hardly watch, now i hardly sleep! lol!

i played with HDTV, 16:9, zoom and strech etc. i got used to it now and i think the strech is done very well, i didn't notice too much difference in picture distortion.
the black and grey bars no longer bothers me. macdoc its funny you brought up the difference in HDTV picture during commercials, i was surprised when it first happened.
not all programmes are HD wide, and older shows still look bad under HD with side bars, i guess there's nothing can be done.
i will be picking up an upscan 1080i DVD player next week, will be looking forward to seeing the difference of full HDMI 1080i output.
i got mine from a professional specialty store, the knowledgable staff really made a difference.

i suggest to go for the biggest screen your budget allows, it is an unreal experience yo uwill have to experience on a personal level.
eg.when you watch news (in HD), the anchor person is like real life in front of you! i now wish i had spent another 1k to go the 60"... IMHO don't go for 42" and under it is too small.

ohenri, i got the sony package, apart from bell expressvu, you will need the stand (looks/ matches beautifully) and the DVD recorder. i just recorded amazing race 6 on DVD, gorgeous.
it never occurs to me these toys are so fun when i don't have them, now i cannot be without those.
i was laughing when you mentioned fainting while moving your 27" CRT, i too nearly passed out while moving my 32" for sale.

*if anyone needs a referral to a tv/home theatre pro store i can recommend the one i visit. HDTV in richmond hill (GTA). excellent pricing, great service.
















too much tv....

[ December 08, 2004, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: rollee ]


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## vacuvox (Sep 5, 2003)

ok - I'm interested. can't see a Toshiba 42 but FutureShop has a 46 for $1700. seems like a good deal. any leads on a good dealer in central TO with a Toshiba 42? what sort of price am I looking at?

And now... a total noob question. I've noticed these sets have a DVI connection. Can I plug it into my Mac????


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

> iPetie, I find that hard to believe. I have a 14" flat screen Toshiba stereo TV in my motor home, and its picture puts any of the other three CRTs I own to shame. (CRTs: 27", 13" and 6".)
> 
> As far as I am concerned, "flat's where it's at"!
> 
> Cheers


a 6" tv?????? the screen on my palm Tungsten E is bigger than that...

my buddy has a 57" Hitachi HDTV, its crt. the picture is amazing, even with regular satellite(not HD). the stretch really doesn't make things look all that weird. and besides on dvd movies you still get black bars on the top and bottom. He just got HD satellite and it looks killer. The picture clarity is amazing and 5.1 surround for everything. he claims that after a few years he will get a HD prjector.


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## rollee (Feb 26, 2003)

i'll try maybe bestbuy or sears for your 42?

it is not recommended to connect a computer to the DVI port of a television, there is a warning advising against this with my sony. i remember reading somewhere earlier as to the reason, i just know not to do it.
perhaps someone with more knowledge in this departmant can fill us in on this?


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> my buddy has a 57" Hitachi HDTV, its crt


 

I hope that he has no intentions of moving that anytime soon. whoa...

I just went to big box FS to see what they have listed under a search for DLP TVs. This is what resulted of the search. A little out of the range that most outlined. Is the DLP feature somehting that will not come up immediately in a search??

H!


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

As well, in my search, I found a site offering an outline and comparaison between DLPs and LCDs here.

Are they correct?? 

H!


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Hmmm it seems that they are comparing apples & oranges: small screen sizes are very seductive. A 15" LCD will normally look better than a CRT, whereas a 32" CRT still has the edge. If you start to compare different sixes, then it's difficult not to be very biased. All I can say is that DLPs do seem to have a smaller sweet spot; but nowhere as bad as old projection TVs.

I would be interested in Macdocs' views on projector DLP v. TV box DLP. It seems to me that the former is vastly superior but it must also be easier to screw up adjustments. 

Regarding 16x9 and side banding, many broadcasters here now routinely shoot in 16x9 and broadcast either in dual format (ie 16x9 on digital channels and classic on analogue channels; or they send everything in 14x9. From a personal POV, I really notice deformation, so I prefer to use the 14x9 zoom function that keeps proportions right. It is rare that you lose significant information from top/bottom. Besides, leaving the 2 black bands means a very small picture. Not good.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

O'Henri that information is out of date - top end contrast ratios are 3000 and 5000:1 and even 6000:1

But you are focusing on the monitor and technology and not on your source.

THEY ARE ALL GOOD on HD - a $1700 CRT rear projector is fabulous with a top notch source.

Unless you are prepared to get in deep into source quality there is little to be gained in spending large amounts at this point on the set itself.

For where you are I'd HIGHLY recommend a Toshiba Cinemawide with the matching Colorstream DVD and get good cables and the best HD receiver for your supplier ( ie Rogers or Bell ). Also get a good surround system.
It's the total experience that makes it great.
Toshiba has been and is the leader in the field.
It's standard ( part of a conglomerate with NEC and others) has been accepted for upcoming HD DVD.



> HD-DVD Status:
> 
> How the format is going to be is not yet decided but there is a strong will among the film studios and electronic makers that the format should arrive sooner rather than later. The earliest we can expect HD-DVD content is 2004 but 2005-2006 seems more like it.
> 
> ...


It's a safe purchase, cost effective and very enjoyable.
Sony is also safe in the CRT/RP or directview line tho I'm not fond of Sony reliability over time.

I'd avoid getting into the DLP/LCD wars - I can't tell you why as it's a long story but I have no faith in LCD over time and I've been evaluating HD for 20 years+

DLP IS the best technology over time but great source is too scarce in my mind to justify the jump right now as we've not tapped 1080i yet - upscaling is a big factor for both DVDs and regular broadcast and is not a part of the set itself.

As to projection - IF you have the right room apparently it's awesome and cost effective BUT the bulbs are costly and you need absolute dark.

Because the HD DVD format is not entirely settled and source is scarce - go light on the set spending at this point as they get better real fast over the next 18 months and concentrate on source and getting to know the field better.

DigitalHome is excellent and you could get a complete Toshiba set up from him and know you are being well served.

http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forums/index.php

For what's it's worth I would not touch an LCD.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

When I first came back home to Canada, in feb of 2001, I had a pawn shop 20 inch Zenith portable. And I live way out in the bush...so I had a coat hanger out on the grape arbour for an antenna. Two clear local channels and three more that were very fuzzy (I live right between two mountains.)

Then...9/11 happened.

Suddenly, I needed to see what was going on. In great detail. So I bought a slightly used Sony 32 inch CRT and got myself a sat system.

MUCH better!

Then, a buddy of mine offered me a Hitachi 32 inch CRT. So I set it up right beside the big Sony for a week or so. Just to compare.

I flogged the Sony shortly afterward. Couldn't compare to the vivid sharp picture of the Hitachi.

THEN...I picked up a vintage Sansui tube amp and jury-rigged it to produce surround sound. I added a set of big Pro-Linear speakers and a second set of really nice Sansui five ways for the back channels.

Now...all of my friends want to come over and watch movies on my amazing TV setup. It's like being in a theatre. And it only cost me about three hundred bucks, so far.

Next step is a better TV. Something with a 16 by 9 ratio. An an HD decoder for my sat system.

Thanks to what I've learned on this thread...it will probably be a DLP. Not a Plasma. Nor an LCD.

And it certainly won't be a Sony.

But it might be a Hitachi or a Panasonic.

I've learned that all on my own.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

wow.

Yea, I do have a set-up that is ready for the addition of a good TV set. I currently run a Panasonic 5.1 digital receiver with JBL 5. 1 separates. I added a Panasonic DVD (all of which were grabbed as closeout/open box models and thus @ massive savings). I'm back into the full movie experience and thought that I could dip into a new set.

I'm challenged by space so I thougth that a Flat Planel might be where i should go + the small footprint etc... 

This thread has opened my eyes quite well, so the search will continue. Can ppl post their models for reference?? would love to see what ehmacians are using.  

H!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

How much distance to the viewing area - it's really important to your screen size choice.
A standard DVD player is only 420 - nowhere close to HD tho progressive scan helps smooth things out.
I'd not buy high end on DVD viewing as your main media.

Look for good filters.
Sounds like a big Direct View or a 40-50 RP. 45" Toshiba sounds right for a small area. I use a 42" and I'm in a decent size area tho for sure the next one will be the 50-52.

BTW I disagree on the "biggest" as flaws are very obvious in source unless you can get back from the screen.
Again there are guidelines - screen size to distance.

Once you SEE HD you get spoiled for quality.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

BTW Disney have just announced they were going to support Sony's Blu-Ray. The have not however said that they would NOT support DVD-HD


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Here we go again  Beta versus VHS ....sigh


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

> a 6" tv?????? the screen on my palm Tungsten E is bigger than that...


Yep, 6" is what they called it when I bought it in 1983. It's a GE with a fabulously clear picture. The screen measures about 5.75" on the diagonal and the screen is about 4.5" wide x 3.5" deep.

My Palm screen measures 2" wide x 2.5" deep. You obviously have the "Supersized" Palm, do you?

Cheers


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

> it is not recommended to connect a computer to the DVI port of a television, there is a warning advising against this with my sony. i remember reading somewhere earlier as to the reason, i just know not to do it.


Yeah, my Toshiba 51" has the same warning. It doesn't say why, either.

As for the HD-DVD vs Blu-ray war, yes it may turn out like VHS vs Beta or it may turn out like the war of DVD+R/RW vs DVD-R/RW where both technologies win out and devices support both.


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

> Yep, 6" is what they called it when I bought it in 1983. It's a GE with a fabulously clear picture. The screen measures about 5.75" on the diagonal and the screen is about 4.5" wide x 3.5" deep.
> 
> My Palm screen measures 2" wide x 2.5" deep. You obviously have the "Supersized" Palm, do you?
> 
> Cheers


it was a figure of speech SINC.



> I hope that he has no intentions of moving that anytime soon. whoa...


thats not even the funniest part!!! 
















when he bought it about 2 years ago he found a **slight** problem while trying to put it in his house. it just so happened that it was about 6 inches wider than the door was. so out came the door jam and some dry wall, just for the tv. he has double doors that go out onto his deck, so he can move it no problem, and he made his new door 8 inches wider than the old one







.

why can't you hookup your computer to the DVI port on a HDTV?? i know you can hookup hdtv and some dvdplayers with(my buddy uses his for hdtv) but why not a computer??? difference in signal type maybe? i have seen projectors with DVI plugs, is the same thing go for them?


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

> quote: _
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> my buddy has a 57" Hitachi HDTV, its crt
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _
> ...


Actually, as long as your not moving them from one floor to another floor they are quite easy to move. You just roll them on their rollers - the reason they come on rollers. My Toshiba 51" rear-projection CRT is over 180 lbs, I think, and I can move it with one hand. 

It's also interesting to see the insides of the TV. The top part of the cabinet where the screen is, contains almost nothing except the screen and mirror. The bottom part below the screen is where all the guts are. The repairman that fixed mine under warrantee this fall had my HDTV in parts in about 15 minutes - all he used was an electronic screwdriver. He took the bottom third of my TV to the shop to repair.


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## rollee (Feb 26, 2003)

when moving my new sony 50 DLP, it really felt feather light, very pleasant surprise.
while we are on the topic of home theatre, i believe on the biggest screen you can afford, but more importarntly it is the sound.
the thundering roars of gun fire and silence of a breeze on trees, to a live musical performance where every stoke is clearly bare. sound enhances the experience more than the visual image portrays.
i use a pioneer elite surround amplifier pairing with a jamo 5.1 thx system, although not top-of-the-line, but its a great investment.


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## Jordan (Jul 20, 2002)

I just bought a Toshiba 26" Theaterwide HD TV for $600, after doing a lot of research the Toshiba had the best reliability and bang for the buck.
The picture is amazing.
I bought this small widescreen CRT for the simple reason that DLP, LCD and Plasma will be dropping drastically in price in the next 2 to 5 years. When that happens the 26" will go to the rec room and a nice Plasma or LCD will be in it's place [at a reasonable price]

I had a Sony 32" Trinitron that has left a bitter taste in my mouth [which I just gave away after paying $1500 for it  ]. After fighting with Sony for almost a year now and finding out the "Truth" about Sony TV's................. I pity anyone who buys a Sony thinking it's good quality!!

I'm not sure what all this "burn in" talk is about with widescreen TV's, if a person chooses to use the "Normal" 4:3 setting on a 16:9, well, that's their problem. Not sure why anyone would do that.

My Toshiba has 5 screen settings, I keep it on #1 TheaterWide1 which projects the picture normal at centre and then slightly stretches to the sides, not even noticeable and It looks normal.

DVD's are unbelievable now, the detail is amazing.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Smart move - the direct view Toshibas are terrific amd what a bargain.  
Excellent strategy.

HiDef DVDs are pretty close - once the dust settles it's a DLP for me. I'll hang on to my still excellent Toshiba Cinemawide til then.

Battle of the Blues - HDDVD versus Blu-Ray 

If you can't access it let me know.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

I am wondering why, MacDoc, you counsel so strongly against buying DLP now. Is it just price?

From what I can see, a good quality 50" HD RP CRT (WXYZ!) costs about $2,400 now and the same size DLP costs $3,500. For the extra $ you get a materially better picture and a way smaller and lighter box (i.e. something many people can put into their home without turning the living room or family room upside down, not to mention incurring less feminine wrath).

Personally, I am disposed to wait until next spring, by which time (I anticipate) the next generation of DLP sets will be available, and the price difference between the technologies will be minimal. 

Rather than buy CRT now, presumably for a relatively long term, would it not make more sense to:
1. Wait a few months and buy DLP, if you don't need a set right now;
2. Buy DLP now if you need a set now?


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

i love my 27" sony wega. its worked perfectly since we got years ago. has nice sound, nice picture, i







it.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I don;t think you'll find a good 50"+ DLP under $5k and there are very good CRT/RP well under $2k.

The point is there is not enough good material out there to get the advantage of the DLP and you continue to burn and expensive bulb on the DLP - the market moves forward whiel we wait 12-18 months for the HD DVD wars to settle.

THEN pop for the machine that will get you the real enchilada. Right now 720p is about the best source around.

That's why - 

Most people are used to buying a CRT with along life - the DLPs and LCDs burn through light sources.
On 720p and most often 420 or perhaps upscaled to 720 the real distinctions are lost.

I'd say my existing HD gets a "workout" with some decent source maybe 10% of the time. ( DVDs are NOT decent source -compared to HD ).

My guess is $1400-1800 now then $2500 in 18 months less what you get for the CRT/RP ends you with a better unit thatn $5k now and waiting for the source material to arrive.


In the first case you get the THEN CURRENT technology when the source arrives.

In the latter you get the NOW CURRENT technology which may well be not as good - most likely not as good.

If this is your first steps in upper end TV I'd go cautiously, get your feet wet and concentrate on source quality and the sound/environment/seating/lighting now.

When the source material gets available THEN hit the high end screen.

Hey I CAN afford a DLP - I KNOW how good it is. I've got 20 years dealing with HD.
I 'm not buying yet. That's gotta tell you something.

I'm watching a high end source right now on a 3 year old Toshiba and it looks like 35 mm film. The same Cinemawide is out there under $2k.
When the source is good -right now THEY'RE ALL SPECTACULAR.

Only when the really good sources arrive will the highend pull away.


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

My roommate has an HD Sony TV with the Bell HD Dish and honestly, I am not all that impressed. 
Granted the HD shows look much better than SD versions, but a lot of the stuff is just up-resed for HD, so its still not the quality it could be. Not to mention the fact that on our 8 HD channels, half the stuff is still broadcast in SD!

Its cool, but I will save my money till there is more HD than SD!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Exactly - reality is - there's just not enough good source out there.  
I mean there's only so much Desert Speaks you can watch









Many so called HD shows are not even shot in full HD format. You know it immediately when you see it.

Some shows the some of the camera's are HD others not - - ugh. Sports in particular are uneven yet a live sports HD broadcast is eye popping when done right.

I reallllllly wish Nat'l Geo was all HD - for that I night snag the DLP.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm with Jordan and a few others on this.

I have had some very high end Sony gear over the past few years. Including their very best big screen TV's and three of their top of the line broadcast quality 3CCD video cameras (I am the team photographer for a Top Fuel drag race crew).

Know what?

Nowadays, most of the SONY stuff is all junk with a fancy name on it.

My Sony big screen TV's have all had soft fuzzy pictures with slightly muted colours. Several of them have broken expensively. Right after the warrantee expired. I replaced my SONY big screen with a far superior Hitachi. My slightly smaller screen bedroom TV with a super sharp and super reliable Panasonic.

My dads 4500 dollar Sony big screen cost him almost five hundred bucks to fix...only one month after the warantee expired. It has since completely died. At the grand old age of six years.

My Sony editing deck spent far more time in the shop than in my hands. Smoke used to pour out the back of it with some regularity. I finally abandoned this 1400 dollar piece of garbage at the fifth repair shop it landed in. Three years after I bought it. I got about four real months of use out of it in three years. the rest of the time it was being fixed...or I was arguing with Sony about having to fix it. (they hang up on you a lot, and are not too terribly helpful. To say the least.).

My three multiple CCD broadcast quality SONY video cameras were a total nightmare. I was lucky if any of them were actually running when the drag races were on. I got to know the technicians who fix this stuff really well. REALLY Well.

The SONY people were of the opinion that, if you actually took their sainted cams out of the box, and tried to shoot any video with them, then you were probably in violation of some obscure segment of their multi-page warrantee.

When I went to buy a 27 inch CRT for my bedroom, I faithfully checked out all of the brands. I talked to several salesmen who seemed to know what they were talking about. I finally picked one salesguy who seemed to be a cut above the rest, and told him that he would get my business, now and later...if he could point me to a really nice 27 inch CRT that wouldn't crap out on me within a few years. And has a really good picture.

He showed me the Panasonic, right off the bat. He also told me that "with Sony these days, you are just paying a premium for the name. They actually have the shortest warrantee in the business. And their picture quality is not exactly at the top of the heap"

(No sh*t. Check for yourself)

So...I bought the Panasonic. It's been an outstanding TV. Which doesn't surprise me...I replaced all of my totally dysfunctional SONY gear (3CCD video cameras, etc.) with PANA gear some time ago. And it all works. Beautifully! Fantastic picture...and ZERO problems!

I have no idea who handles Panasonic warrantee work. I've never had any occasion to call up Panasonic for ANY warrantee work. EVER.

Despite having about twelve thousand dollars worth of their TV/Video gear. Some components of which go through pure HELL. Regularly.

It's as reliable as a rock. Unlike SONY.

Just my thoughts...and my experiences...on this.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I concur both fronts. Panasonic - rock solid - even when I was in the audio biz over 25 years ago the goods were top notch. 
Pioneer too. Sony - not a hope, good technology, good looks, terrible service/reliablility record.
Even in the Mac end we have far fewer issues with IBM and Dell with Sony tubes than ever with Sony branded CRTs - and the latter only carries a one year warranty - gotta tell you something.

I was always leery of Toshiba as a "lower brand" and it's true they do not cater to the ultra-high end. What they do is bring leading or even beyond leading edge - early adopter stuff at very reasonable prices.

I find Panasonic stays a bit back but Tosh WILL go go out ahead and actively create new markets.

I think it's no coicindence Sony and Phillips tend to hook up - both - too many toys - too little real value in terms of reliability. I'd almost say the old "built in obsolence" is alive and well at both marques.  

Pioneer, Matsu****a gear seem like the Energizer bunnies of the field.

I've never been fond of Hitachi gear either sound or video - never seemed to stack up to the others tho they appear reliable.
Sony consumer I avoid like the plague.
Sony Pro has been pretty solid - has to be given their dominance in broadcast. Too bad it doesn't carry over.

Whatever the marque - tread cautiously spending big $$ right now.


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

I've had a DLP front projector for about 18 months and I couldn't be happier. My main complaint is the limited amount of HD programming available.

The heart of the DLP system is the digital micromirror device (DMD). It's an array of very small mirrors and it's the same device that's at the core of the optical switches that the Telecom companies use.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Sony Pro gear is considered top notch by a lot of the video guys in the field. I was shooting drag races right beside the SpeedChannel guys last summer..and they all had Sony 3CCD cams.

At one point, we were all in a mobile hoist overlooking the dragstrip when a huge rainstorm blew in. The controls on the mobile hoist screwed up and we were all stuck up there for 45 minutes. Getting royally hosed by a torrent of cold rain. The two Sony cams died and their operators both said "Damn!...Back to the shop AGAIN!"

My seven year old Pro Panasonic 3CCD cam just kept motoring along. Didn't miss a beat. That thing is an anvil. You just can't kill it!

When we were finally rescued from the stuck hoist and were returned to terra firma...we all went back to the editing den and checked our footage. Mine was sharp and clear and had really vivid colour. Their footage...from the SONY pro cams, was nowhere near as sharp...and had slightly muted colours. Everyone in that trailer commented on this.

And my camera was still working after the big hosedown. Theirs were both DOA.

Later on, over a few brews, I got asked a lot of questions about Panasonic Pro gear from a couple of very committed Sony shooters. I can safely say that they went back to Ontario as true believers. (Watch for sharper and more vivid footage from SpeedVision in the very near future, folks.)

Sony Pro gear? Great rep. Mediocre picture. Poor reliability. (downright fragile actually...almost as bad as Canon Pro gear. But with a slightly better picture).

Bottom line on Sony Pro stuff? Pretty much the same as their crappy, overpriced and underperforming, consumer junk.

Avoid like the plague.

Buy Panasonic.


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## Jordan (Jul 20, 2002)

My Sony 32" Trinitron lasted 4.5 years with about 12000 hours of use, far short the 36000 hours Sony claims a TV should last as a minimum.

Through my research I found that a minimum of two Sony Trinitrons 27" and 32" that were the first of the "flat screen" [although they still had a slight curve] TV's had reconditioned factory seconds tubes. Rebuilt in Texas then shipped to Mexico for assembly.
How many other Sony's have reconditioned or factory second parts??!!
I contacted Market Place and gave all the info, but had no reply. I guess it's because they have quite a bit of Sony equipment.

One thing I noticed about a widescreen TV, when compared to a regular 4:3 some programs on the 4:3 have missing info on either side.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Odd about that Jordan. My Dad's horrribly expensive big screen Sony had to go into the shop just after the warantee ran out (as noted earlier). It's now dead as Beta, after only six years of use (as noted earlier).

When it first hit the shop, I went into the back and chatted with the guy who was fixing it. He pointed out that "A WHOLE BUNCH of the stuff in here is Mexican crap. No wonder it quit!".

I dismissed it at the time. This guy was NOT a Sony fan, as I found out while several major repairs were being made on some of MY Sony stuff, later on.

Cheap mexican junk being sold for a high price with a fancy name on it?

Hmmmm.....how the mighty have fallen.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

> I don;t think you'll find a good 50"+ DLP under $5k and there are very good CRT/RP well under $2k.


Looks to me that practically evey 50" DLP can currently be bought for about $3,500 - Sumsung, Panasonic and others. Even the Samsung premium "captain kirk" model is $4,000. I have not seen a price as high as $5,000 for several months.

I can understand you saying "don't buy one yet". That makes sense - in a few months they will be better, probably much cheaper, and have a wider range of programming. But buying an RP CRT implies a long term commitment to a technology that is on the verge of obsolescence.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Anything I have ever owned over the years with the name Sony, has performed horribly, and not lasted any real length of time compared to other manufacturers. It is a vastly over rated brand and I would never buy anything Sony again.

Cheers


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

nxnw - you may be right I have not checked retail since the summer and obviously there is a war on - 
Also apparently there is a next gen with some significant improvements in the next few months.

My comments on stay low right now are for those just getting their feet wet in HD. A CRT/RP will give many years of very enjoyable use at a low cost AND without costly tubes.
I consider it the right choice for those entering the HD realm just as the eMac is superb value in the Mac arena for entry level users.

Because of limited source AND limited experience it represents a "safe investment" over time.

For the upper end user I'd still wait if you can for the next gen and HD DVD for the reasons of limited source now and hot new cheaper technology in the next few month.
I would NOT recommend a CRT solution for the experienced videophile - they likely already have one.
I WOULD recommend nursing what they have for a bit longer unless they are convinced the current value/performance/source spectrum meets their requirements.

I'm not convince it's exactly the right time but I AM convinced it's real close to the right time. 6-9 months out - 12 at the most when perhaps there are some real bargains in top of line - last year ( 2005 ) DLP models to be had.

But you're right $4k for this - Zeiss lens pretty tempting tho 1500:1 is not current top end.










Samsung HL-P5063W 50" Widescreen DLP TV

The HL-P5063W 50" Rear Projection DLP TV defines high definition performance and is lighter and even more compact than previous designs. Its design offers endless placement possibilities since you can hang it, mount it, rest it on a stand or simply move it anywhere, anytime.

More Information 

FEATURES:
HDTV Ready: Fully capable of high-definition display when connected to an optional HDTV source. Conventional analog TV reception is provided via a built-in NTSC tuner.

DLP projection system employs a single, fully digital micro-mirror display panel for stunning picture in an ultra-light, ultra-thin cabinet.

*Carl Zeiss Multi Lens Optic System*

6000 hour 120 watt user replacement lamp.

No screen aging or burn-in effects.

SRS TruSurround XT

Cinema Smooth HD light processing engine creates pixel-free film-like images with outstanding colour and deep black levels, with a 1500:1 contrast ratio. 

Automatic digital format-conversion system accepts any DTV, analog TV or computer RGB input format and converts it to 720p progressive-scan widescreen display.

DNIe (Digital Natural Image Engine) incorporates a digital noise reduction and delivers enhanced contrast, white level and picture detail.

*Cinema Smooth film-mode 3:2 pull down eliminated motion artefacts found in 480i DVD video.

3D Y/C digital comb filter greatly reduces image artefacts and improves transition detail.*

2-tuner picture-in-picture lets you watch 2 shows at once without the need for a second video source.

30W MTS stereo audio system with SRS TruSurround XT delivers compelling virtual surround sound.

5 Preset Audio Modes: Sports, Movies, Music, Speech, Custom

5 Aspect Ratio Modes: Zoom 1, Zoom 2, Wide, Panorama, Normal

3 Picture Modes: Standard, Dynamic, Cinema

 pretty fine tho.


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## Jordan (Jul 20, 2002)

I was pretty choked MacDoc when I found out that info.

To replace the tube [which Sony suggested I do at my expense] would be $1200 US plus Labour!!  

There's a guy in the US right now that is starting a Lawsuit against Sony for this problem, he has [last time I looked March 2003] almost 2000 people on the list. I can't seem to find the site, I thought I saved all that stuff. I was probably so pissed off at Sony I must have deleted everything[delete them from my life, maybe  ]


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## Codger (Aug 1, 2004)

My neighbour has Faroudja DVP4000
http://www.faroudja.com/prod_dvp-4000.phtml
and their 50" plasma.
Now talking about getting 
http://www.faroudja.com/prod_fdp-dila2.phtml

The picture on the plasma is amazing, doesn't seem to matter if it's cable, satellite or DVD. All the sources somehow go through the processor that is in the DVP4000.
Looks great but I think that the tab for his system is a fair bit more than I want to spend.


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

Faroudja now you are talking. The consumer stuff that Macdoc is talking about is okay but once you get into stuff like Faroudja your going to see a big difference. 

My route of choice would be projector much more cost effective and a better lumen output than the comparable priced projection TV.

The downside to LCD and DLP is that they don’t do blacks very well.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Hunh?/ at 4000:1 or even 1500:1 contrast a DLP rear projector doesn't do blacks?? since when??

It's very different technology than LCD and every DLP I've seen does incredible blacks.

Ummm
http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5108443-4.html



> Samsung HLN617W DLP RPTV
> We've been talking about black levels a lot, so let's finish the discussion right here: *Aside from CRT models, DLP sets currently provide the deepest blacks* of any projection technology. Recent advancements in LCD have narrowed the gap considerably, but DLP still has a slight lead. DLP-based RPTVs also have a 1,280x720-resolution chip that shows every pixel of 720p HDTV, resulting in a very sharp picture with high-definition sources.


That was my understanding as well.
DLP does good blacks.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"_All the sources somehow go through the processor that is in the DVP4000._

That's the key a high end source and good upscaling. The new pixel handling technologies are getting incredible. Closer and closer to the "no grain" look of film even up close.

That's one argument I have against really big screens - unless you have either a flawless source or are far way the artifacts and pixel issues are too evident.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

> Samsung HL-P5063W 50" Widescreen DLP TV


I've seen that one for $3,500. For $4,000 You can get the better DLP with 2500:1 contrast. Next spring more contrast, less money.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"_Next spring more contrast, less money._"

Yep - next CES - look out - the HD wave becomes a Tsunami.  
Definitely will be my "treat" for 2005.  

Anyone want to buy a DVD collection


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Just think what it would take on a difficult topic to penetrate that thick scot skull  Small nuclear device maybe....  

••••

Anyone catch the BB flyer - Toshiba widescreen direct view for $600!!!!!

That would be an incredible starter system for HD


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Just think what it would take on a difficult topic to penetrate that thick scot skull  Small nuclear device maybe....  

••••

Anyone catch the BB flyer - Toshiba widescreen direct view for $599!!!!!

That would be an incredible starter system for HD in a small setting.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Actually, macdoc...a few small pieces of shrapnel HAVE actually penetrated this thick Scot skull over the years.

Luckily, they didn't have any real effect. Although sometimes my left leg seems to have a mind of its own. And my eyes no longer track on the same plane. And I can't see in colour sometimes. Then there's those grand mal seizures where they have to call out the SWAT team to get me back into my cage.

Other than that...I'm just fine.
















And...for what it's worth...I STILL Agree with you about waiting a few months for the next big thing in TV sets.

In fact...I plan on buying a fancy big screen 16X9, when the new ones come out. Once these guys in white suits actually let me out of the straightjacket. 

Buncha killjoys.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

MacDoc, 

That Toshiba - as well priced as it is, is still a CRT. Trying to stay away from those. I just can't stand the weight...  

Looks like I wil wait until the new year. The next CES is in LV. Jan 6th-9th. I wish...

H!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Any time I find myself about to agree with macdoc, I usually stop what I am doing...I take several deep breaths...then I go out back of my house and smack myself a few times upside the head with my favorite wood splitter. Then I go have a cold shower...and think about things, for awhile..

I then dip my head in a large barrel of stale sauerkraut. Several times. And place a personal call to Dr. Phil and spill my troubled guts. Sometimes I even contempate leaning over the sink and slicing open a main vein...

This usually cures the urge. 

But I have to say that, all things considered, I am WITH Macdoc on this. I honestly think that we are on the cusp of a major breakthrough in both price and technology when it comes to TV technology.

We are almost there right now...but not quite.


Six months from now...no more than twelve...we will ALL be marching down to the local electronics store to buy what is obviously the NEXT big thing!

And anyone that buys what is available today...will also be marching down there WITH all the rest of us.

They'll just be two or three grand poorer than the rest of us. Because they wasted their hard earned cash on some bleeding edge peice of gear that isn't quite really there yet.

But COSTS like it was.

Me? I'm waiting. 

But less than one year from this day I WILL have the best 16X9 TV set that this world has ever seen. Probably for less than three grand. Perhaps even for less than two grand.

Till then...my 32 inch Hitachi square screen crt (with it's incredibly sharp picture and vivid colour) will just have to do...


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

boxing day is 12 days away


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yep CRTs are heavy.
Wait on the DLPs then - the prices are plummeting.
What's your room size/seating distance?


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## Jordan (Jul 20, 2002)

I just bought that 26" Toshiba HDTV, and it's not that heavy!
Heck of a lot lighter than the 30 or 34", I can easily move it [26"] around by myself.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Jordan I think Ohenri is referring to the larger screens. I'd be interested in your feedback.
I assume you have a progressive scan DVD player and make sure you use the component input for the best picture.  

Anyone know if the video out on powerbooks/iBooks will do 16x9??


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

MAcDOC quoted Hunh?/ at 4000:1 or even 1500:1 contrast a DLP rear projector doesn't do blacks?? since when??

Cnet Quote
We've been talking about black levels a lot, so let's finish the discussion right here: Aside from CRT models, DLP sets currently provide the deepest blacks of any projection technology. Recent advancements in LCD have narrowed the gap considerably, but DLP still has a slight lead. DLP-based RPTVs also have a 1,280x720-resolution chip that shows every pixel of 720p HDTV, resulting in a very sharp picture with high-definition sources.

That was my understanding as well.
DLP does good blacks. 

Okay Macdoc notice the “Aside from CRT models“ quote.

The issue with DLP’s is that black is difficult to produce as the mirrors only detect light, they are unable to shut our light which effect the black level.

On a professional level we have been playing with these babies for years , now remember David we are trying these on up to 30’ screens and see things that you would not on a 40” screen. Neither LCD’s (active matrix, TFT, Poly-Si, passive) or DLP’s give you the richness and contrast levels of a CRT, although some are pretty good. 

CRT is still the best picture quality which is the reason when you see big TV control room setups everything is CRT, as the color has to 100% accurate. LCD’s tend to have problems with red and DLP’s can suffer from the rainbow effect

You can't really go by how a set looks in the store, especially for CRT sets, since they're never adjusted for optimum performance, nor is the store environment the ideal for showcasing a set's capabilities.

The DLP might look better in the store because it's brighter, sharper, and has no convergence issues. The CRT is most likely jacked up to 100% contrast, and the sharpness is likely set too high for an accurate picture. CRT images tend to be softer than LCD/DLP images due to their analog nature, but then so is the film you watch in the cinema.

For less money, the CRT, once properly calibrated, will look better in your room than any DLP or LCD can hope to. 20 minutes with AVIA or VE to set the user controls properly will get you 75% there. Doing a thorough convergence will get you even closer. If you want to go all the way, $500-600 for a professional calibration by an ISF technician will squeak the last ounce of performance out of your set (you're still looking at less $ than the DLP). Once you set the convergence initially, you should only need to do minor tweaks to it every few months, unless you move the set.

As for burn-in, as long as you're properly calibrated (meaning the contrast is cranked way down) and you don't keep static images up for extended periods (paused video games), burn-in won't be a problem. CRTs don't have problematic, expensive HID lamps or noisy fans, and most don't use scalers either, which are what lead to the audio sync problems on some DLP and LCD units.


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

I also just purchased the Toshiba 26 inch WS. I love the widescreen formate, and the picture quality is excellent. I have been very impressed with Toshibas quality. A friend just purchased a 51 inch rear projection widescreen HD tv, and we watched ROTK SE yesterday night, and all I can say is WOW the picture was so sharp and vivid. Wish I had the money for that system right now


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

> Anyone know if the video out on powerbooks/iBooks will do 16x9??


you sell macs for a living and you don't know that macdoc?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Nope - not a high priority item as wide screen presentation is not that frequent a topic.  
That it plays on a Cinema does not mean it will go out analogue.


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

Well i suspect that if you plug your mac into your tv, say using s-video, it will send a 4:3 ratio picture of the widescreen(16:9) movie. know your tv is a widescreen, it will probably take off the top and bottom black bars and display it normally. or atleast thats what i think. why doesn't someone just try it? come on macdoc you gotta have at LEAST one mac you could plug into your tv.


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

It may do anamorphic 16X9 but not true 16x9.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You don't know what you ask - plugging into an HD rig is not that straight forward and we are at double our normal sales volume.







40+ iPods today - 13 thanks to an enthusiastic ehMAc member.  

I suspect the 4:3 aspect with letterbox maybe will occur. Dvi should do it but I've heard there are issues there as well.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Thought I would revive this as the prices are spectacular  

From the http://digitalhomecanada.com board

Here are some good deals:

FutureShop:

Toshiba 51" HDTV $1,599

BestBuy:
Panasonic 53" WS HD TV $1599
*Samsung 43" HDTV DLP $2000* <<<<<<<http://www.tutorgig.com/store/PRB00009EFRC

Not sure the exact model numbers are. Probably they are:

TOSHIBA 51H84, $600 off regular price
Panasonic: PT53WX54, $300 off regular price
Samsung: HLN4365. Cannot find it on BB's site.

*Yes they are Canadian prices*

••••

This was an interesting image - confirms my opinion on DLP


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> What's your room size/seating distance?


I must be just over 10ft away (eyes/ears to screen). Room size?? somewhere in the 13x16. Maybe just over that... 

I really like the price on that Samsung. + I will sorta wait to see how prices drop. I figure:

CES + new product annoucement = price drops =









I'll be patient - although I just came across an accounting irregularity: some extra ca$h! But I have those damn Apple LCDs in sight...  I hope Elliot Spitzer & the SEC don't come knocking!

BTW MacDoc, good looks (aka thanks) on the digi/canada site: an immediate [apple D]!
H!

[ December 23, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Ohenri ]


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## rhino (Jul 10, 2002)

You are such a tease, macdoc. You're right, BB doesn't have it on their site, although your link provided an Amazon.com price of $2999.99 (US$, I presume). And then the link follows up with a "This item is not stocked or has been discontinued."

So where is the Canadian price?


> Yes they are Canadian prices


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

> Well i suspect that if you plug your mac into your tv, say using s-video, it will send a 4:3 ratio picture of the widescreen(16:9) movie. know your tv is a widescreen, it will probably take off the top and bottom black bars and display it normally. or atleast thats what i think. why doesn't someone just try it? come on macdoc you gotta have at LEAST one mac you could plug into your tv.


You can't get HD dimensions using s-video. If you use s-vidio you're going to get a 4:3 picture. To get HD dimensions you have to use the component, DVI, or HDMI inputs on a HDTV. In the manual on my HDTV it says not to connect a computer to the DVI. I don't have HDMI, so that would leave component. I haven't seen any adapter that would hook up to an ADC or DVI port and provide component outputs.


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

> I haven't seen any adapter that would hook up to an ADC or DVI port and provide component outputs.


There will never be an adapter made for ADC besides the Apple DVI to ADC adapter, ADC is dead, just live with it.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

While the $2,000 Samsung 43" DLP is an amazing price, it is also the discontinued HLN series. The current series is HLP, with a newer chip and better contrast. Even the HLP will probably be replace by the spring.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If anyone is looking for a superb low cost HD solution you can't beat this.










http://www.2001audiovideo.com/index2.html

with the LG upscaling DVD player. That's a truly amazing combo.

Anybody with a half decent screen or especially an HD should snag one of these for the holidays and if you want a good but cost effective combo - WOW!










The *LG DV7832NXC **employs Faroudja's de-interlacing technology, up-converting image resolution for crisper, clearer, finely detailed images on screen.* Enjoy better picture quality from your DVD movies on any HDTV compatible TV by simply connecting this LG DVD player via DVI or component video output jacks

Totally amazing and cheap. $239 I got mine for and it really does a number on making DVDs look like HD.
It's not the only one out there BUT if you have an earlier HD ready set with DVi inputs it's the only one that has component out with the upscaling.

I'm going to be cruising my whole DVD collection over the holidays - 
*cheap thrills indeed !*  

Find out more about Faroudja technology and if you are buying high end HDTV look for it. In the meantime it's yours real cheap in the LG DVD player.

http://www.faroudja.com/technology.phtml


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If you want to assess HD in all it's glory the Junior Hockey Championship is on TSN in full HD    

Excellent reference for how good it can be with the right source.


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## jrtech (Sep 24, 2002)

*Hdtv*

Just a quick note to thank all who have contibuted to this thread which helped a bunch when I was shopping. I settled on the 42" Sony Grand Wega with the stand that Ohenri had linked to way back on page 2. This decision did go against some of the opinions but was mainly fired by the fact that our local Sony store was closing and the price was right at $2999.00. This included the stand and extra Sony Care to boot. I reaally would have liked to have picked up one of their higher end bigger units but room and cash size were some deciding factors that kept coming up. I then was able to pick the LG DVD player up, yup the DV7832NXC that MacDoc had recently mentioned. I could not be happier with the end results, Thanks guy's.


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

Congrats on your choice. I have had the same 42" Sony Grand Wega for a little over a month now and it has been absolutly fantastic.


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## jrtech (Sep 24, 2002)

Thanks Bajan glad to hear you are also pleased, I watched Finding Nemo last night and I was more than happy with my purchases. I am now wondering about a universal remote to do away with the remote clutter I have. Not intending to hijack this thread but any opinions/recomendations on universal remotes would be appreciated. And anyone care to recomend any DVD's I should be watching I have not ventured into this media to much as my old RCA did not do them any justice.


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

The Logitech Harmony remotes seem to be very popular. Fairly easy to program but you'll have to check and make sure that all of your components are supported.


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## jrtech (Sep 24, 2002)

Just did a quick search on the new 880 model and was pleasantly surprised to find it supports mac. A definite plus and the color screen makes the Sony gray-scale I looked at a poor comparison. Will be doing some more research into this suggestion.

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/detailsharmony/US/EN,crid=2084,contentid=9933,detail=2

Thanks again Bajan.........


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

jrtech said:


> Just a quick note to thank all who have contibuted to this thread which helped a bunch when I was shopping. I settled on the 42" Sony Grand Wega with the stand that Ohenri had linked to way back on page 2.


Dude, congrats. This is my 1st time back in the Err-thing else forum since the re-deisgn, and I was shocked to see this thread still active. Anyhow, no matter the opinions or observed quality, if the $$ is right, a deal is a deal. Glad you were able to take advantage of a good one. 

I'm still looking around, but decided to hold on until I move to get the Flat Panel. @ that point, I will also look @ upgrading to more HD programming. My CRT is fine for now - although I need to take it in again as the tube is doing funny stuff...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Got an observation, and a question for all of you TV afficionados here.

I regularly spend time in both Victoria and Vancouver and I always check out the high-end electronics when I am off this rural rock. I go to smallish specialty stores and the big-box places. The only thing I look for is video gear and TV stuff because that's my passion.

I've seen countless "high-end" TV sets, both projection and plasma. Plus lots of flat screen CRT units. None of them have ever dazzled me.

Except one.

That was almost four years ago in, of all places Billings Montana. It was in a Best Buy big box store. I saw a bunch of people gathered around a single 32 inch crt TV set. It was an nondescript brand (I think it was an RCA or something) They spellbound crowd were ignoring all of the giant five foot 16X9 TVs and were marveling at this one set. I pushed in closer and had a look for myself...

It was a broadcast of some popular band playing before a live crowd. But what was most interesting...monumental, actually...was the picture quality. It was, quite simply, STUNNING!! It looked like a moving photograph! People kept reaching out in awe to touch the screen to see if it was real. Everyone was whispering like they'd seen the second coming or something. None of us could take our eyes off the damn thing!

Apparently, this was a dedicated HD sat broadcast on some sort of American DSS system. I still can't believe how good it looked.

And I have NEVER seen anything that even came close to matching it! Not in anyone's house, or in any store I've been to since!

That damn TV wasn't even a flat screen, fer cryin out loud!

When I visit my buddies and they tell me about the 5000 bucks they've spent on their high end TV systems, I just nod and smile because they look like crap compared to that HD setup. Even if they claim to have HD...it just doesn't even come close to that cheapo set I saw in Billings almost four years ago. 

So...what gives? Is the American HD sat system that much better? And, if it was that good four years ago...how good is it now?

And why are none of the HD systems I've seen up here able to match it? Or even come close? They all look like hell...especially up close! And I got within a foot of that American Hi-Def sat TV...and it still looked stunning! You literally could not see edges or pixels, no matter how close you looked at it. It was almost 3D. It was alive! 

Anyone got an explanation for this?

(note: please don't just tell me "You haven't seen a good TV recently" I've seen em ALL! I make a point of it. None even deserve to be in the same room with the set I saw in Billings that day. Which might explain why so many other customers were so dazzled that they ignored all of the bigger 16X9 TV sets as well)


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

That's how a few of my HDTV channels look... it looks like you could reach out and touch the flower. I especially find the travel show on the PBS station like this, it looks like your really there. It so vibrant and detailed. Some of the prime time shows, though, look a little grainy, I think it's because there isn't enough natural lighting. Actually it seems live programs look better than prime time recorded stuff - the JAG advertisement with the giant US flag in the background looked better than the show. Maybe it's a difference in the format being used to record the show - 1080i vs 720p or something like that.


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

REAL HD channels look amazing. Almost all channels that say they broadcast HD are just upmixed to a 1080i resolution. This is for very simple reasons. Pro level HD equipment and cameras are incredibly expensive. My buddy has satellite(3 dishs  ) and only has about 5 stations(out of over 1000 channels) that are pure HD, and they look AMAZING on his Hitatchi 57". He has a few hundred other channels that are just upmixed, ya they look really good, but not as good as pure HD format.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"_ single 32 inch crt TV set_.........that's why. 
Good feed, good blacks from the CRT, small image looks gorgeous. 
Just take a full screen hires image and reduce to 25% and it gets real crisp and clean. Reason a 12" iBook looks so gorgeous.
It takes end to end quality to get "touchable 3d look" and source is the MOST important.
The 5085 gets there once in a while in on something like Desert Speaks or live Football. The Junior hockey was spectacular. Takes excellent lighting as well as excellent camera's to provide a really clean well balanced feed.
THEN - small is good on top of that.
BIG does not = BETTER.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

As I have often thought, a bigger CRT (32 inch or so) whups the living HECK out of any of the more expensive sets when it comes to a dazzling picture.

My 32 inch Hitachi produces one of the most remarkeable TV pictures I've ever seen. People often comment on it.

I used to have a high-end Sony CRT with a larger screen in my livingroom. Then, a TV technician buddy offered me this recently repaired 32 inch Hitachi for only a hundred bucks(!). I originally bought it to take to the dragraces as a video monitor...but set it up in my livingroom beside the big Sony to make sure it wouldn't die after a few hours. After about a week of watching both of them side by side (and listening to all of my friends agree with my initial perception that the Hitachi was several orders of magnitude better than the Sony)....I flogged the big Sony, and kept the Hitachi.

I haven't regretted it for one minute. The Hitachi has a dazzling picture. The Sony was muddy and dull in comparison. (and, like high-end Sony 3CCD video cameras, the colour was not terribly lifelike).

As for the HD sat system that left everyone in awe down in Billings that december afternoon in late 2000...

The program that we were watching on that cheapo 32 inch CRT was a live HD broadcast of a popular band (not popular enough for me to have noted their name though). During an intermission in between songs, the MC noted that they were broadcasting in "true High Definition Televison" and the cameras certainly looked pretty high-tech compared to what I'm used to seeing. (I do a lot of video work)

The TV set was advertised as a 600 dollar (US) item and the sat system was said to be worth about another 900 US. The salesman kept reminding all of us that not many HD channels were available "at this particular time". Didn't matter...we were all spellbound by the quality. There was quite a crowd around that particular RCA 32 inch TV that afternoon, lemme TELL ya!!

That was, as I have noted, more than four years ago. Back when a G3 400 Pismo was hot stuff and still available at the Mac reseller. (I know, I bought one right about then)

Wonder how good HD is now, in the USA? It sure looked mighty fine back then.

Even on a cheap set.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

HD has not got "any better". HD was visually perfect since the early 80s. Japan has had some form since then.

Smaller sets that have a high pixel density and decent contrast do well on many sources and are spectacular on high end feeds. A standard non HDTV will not come close - the information cannot be displayed. It might be a good picture but it's not HD and can't get "out to the horizon" clarity that an "end to end" HD feed/display can.
HD camera's are remarkably inexpensive but only the top end camera's can cope with a variety of light conditions. The all look fabulous in daylight conditions.

What has changed is the ability of the big sets ot stay in the high contrast 2000-5000:1 range, high lumens and still "knock your eyes out".

The older large screens simply did not have the light generating ability - they do now and next round will be even better.
Sets with 5000:1 contrast and 6 million pixel count are in the works and even at 70" will be stunning. The 40s through 60s already are - too bad there is so little good source.
The feed on Rogers HD demo of the Canadian Music awards is very good considering the night time filiming.
When the lights are right it's terrific.

HD should look seamless as 35 mm film - that's the goal. The very high end large sets re just getting there.
The upper end intermediate and small sets ARE there when the feed is right.

Smart Travels is a good reference as it's shot in HiDef and had mainly outdoor lighting so it's crisp right out as far as the eye can see. Knowledgeable cameraman helps too.
If the horizon on a clear day looks as detailed as out your window.....and it can.....that's HD...and it's NOW.

It's what I saw at CES in 1982 and wanted ever since. It's finally arrived  even if the sources of really good end to end HD are still limited. ;(

Jump in .....the water's fine - you won't regret it.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

BTW American Idol on FoxHD has very good production values. Good reference. tho the early stages are bit "ear shattering" at times - the eye candy makes it bearable.....sort of.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

*DLP prices continue to plummet*

Tigerdirect.ca is selling a 61" RCA Scenium DLP, using the (currently) premium HD2+ chip, with cable card reader for $3500. It looks to me like this is a relatively new set, as it is the first I have seen that even has a cablecard reader (performs function of set top box, without the set top box). Other manufacturers will have to reposition to be price competitive, just as they had to a few months back when Sony started selling its 50" for $4000, with stand.

It looks like DLP sets will be price competitive with RP CRT set within weeks.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Well, I've set up Rogers HDTV PVR. Picture quality on all channels is way better than std. digital and even the HD terminal from Rogers. I think the HD terminal just passed through channels that weren't HD so you had no advantages in the box other than access to HD specific channels. The PVR seems to upscale all of the channels but it obviously does best with the HD channels which do look good. 

Part of the initial setup is to determine which formats your display supports. As far as I can tell, my display supports all HD formats but it's a little vague in the setup as to whether I actually support 1080i. On the front of the PVR it displays what format is being output and so far every channel I have checked is coming out at 720p (even the upscaled std broadcast channels). I have tried setting the output to a different format but it's not documented well in the PVR software.

The downside to the PVR unit is that the firewire ports on the back (2) don't seem to be active. If they were I would be able to record some shows straight to my PowerBook hard drive for mobile viewing (going to the cottage, etc.). I downloaded some software that can do this but it doesn't see a stream and the PVR doesn't show up in the hardware profile of my PowerBook when it's connected. Oh well, someday.

Does anyone know if there are channels that are actually broadcast in 1080 so I can check them out?

I'll keep you all posted as I figure this box out and find new details.


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## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

i think cnn is is HD sometimes, or it just looks really good on my friends hd box.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Upscaled on a clean signal from a standard channel is very good. When you are over next try National Geo channel - very clean.

•••••

With Rogers there are two HD models - the better one upscales everything - gotta hunt for it -=3150 I think versus the 3000, worth the hunt.
The PVR likely has the same upscale as the 3150.

••

The 2+ chip is excellent BUT it's not all in the chip. You need to look at the other design and filter elements.

My Samsung 5085, a premium design, was $3990 in Dec so yes prices are dropping.

The 3 chip 1080i is also cheaper and will show up in lower end models. The 2+ Mustang is still considered 'higher end" than the 3 - go figure but the x3 due out will be the top of the line but BIG $$$$.

My bet is on DLP in the near term as the best technology over time. That's where I put my money and it's terrific.

LG has a sweet DLP unit as well.
The big gun x3 chip units will start in the 7k range!!!!

I'd stick with the 2+ rather than the 3 in the "budget" range tho you may want to look at reviews.

This will push CRT based HD even lower - a good thing - they are terrific tho damn heavy.
It's the "painted on the screen" look of text and no need for alignment that is a real attraction on DLP plus of course the enormous light output and contrast ratios.
Funny I used to be able to fall asleep with the TV on - the DLP is so bright I wake up when anything white hits - like daylight hitting your closed eyes!!!

Just watching the Australian open in HD - not as good as the Junior Hockey but much better than most sporting events from Australian which has so much compression introduced to get it here it's close to unwatchable.

This is very good just a bit softer than a local sprts HD broadcast.

It's weird....... it softens on movement then sharpens up real well on a slow moving or still.
Federer sure is a spectacular tennis player to watch.!!!!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Thought I would revive this as there is a new BIG GUN at a small price for HDTV lovers.










This thing is getting phenomenal reviews offering the very best technology at an astonishing price point.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/oppo_opdv971h_dvd_player.htm

The key part



> So what makes the Oppo OPDV971H DVD player so hot? While its form factor is sleek with a low profile and uncluttered look, *its digital performance is without equal at apparently any price based on the 2005 DVD Player Benchmark shootout by Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity that ended last month.* The Oppo OPDV971H digital output (DVI) beat 39 other DVD players from 11 other companies including Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, LG, Onkyo, Teac, Oritron, Harmon Kardon, and McCormack. *The price range of these products was $199 to $13,000. Guess who sells for $199 . . . Oppo. *(Scroll down to see specs and photos.)


One of those once in a while magical convergence of price and performance.

Mine is on it's way.

Lots more raves

http://www.dvdtalk.com/features/004343.html



> Initial buzz on the machine from the A/V community has been positively ecstatic, and right now it's one of the hottest DVD players on the market.


Cheap thrills indeed :clap: Under $300 landed plus tax


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

The Oppo looks nice, has great features (Faroudja up-conversion, etc) and is a great price but it does not have HDMI output (it has DVI instead). I'm not sure whether this player will have future compatibility with HDCP compliant media. I'm a dummy at this stuff so please correct me if this is irrelevant.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

At this price who cares  - by that time HD-DVD players will be out.




> High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is a standard, developed by Intel, designed to protect digital video and audio signals *transmitted over DVI connections *between two HDCP-enabled devices.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> At this price who cares  - by that time HD-DVD players will be out.


Yes, but DVI to HDMI does not allow transfers of HDCP content. HDCP only works over HDMI to HDMI. The DVI to HDMI cable is simply a receptacle adaptor. I do worry about these "standards". Makes me wonder whether we are quietly accepting draconian DRM and losing any say over content use. Next, we'll have redefinitions of the meaning of copyright and "fair use".


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

I have a Panasonic 53" HDTV. Rear Projection, but it has Excellent quality for both HDTV and regualr TV, aswell as DVD movies. With the prices of Rear Projections now a days, you could just look into one of those?
Spend that extra thousand bucks on a really good sound system, and you'll be glad you did. Thats what we did, and there is no looking back.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Umm AndrewE what are referring to???
•••

JW that's not the indication from the quote below


> transmitted _ [b[over DVI connections[/b]_ between two HDCP-enabled devices.[/quote


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

Original topic of the thread. Just sharing my input/experience.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It looked like you were referring to a specific post.. No harm.

Did you order your Oppo yet


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

^^^ Uh, _what?_

The fancy shmancy Pioneer DVD player that I paid more than $650 for not even five years ago just gave up the ghost.   

The Oppo is certainly attractive but I wonder if I shouldn't actually just buy a cheapo $130 Panasonic to go with my wonderful 32" GAOO -- this is a superb television from Panasonic, still absolutely flawless after about a dozen years. Were I looking to buy an HD television, the Oppo would be a no-brainer though.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Wow Pioneer stuff is usually bulletproof.

No use in the Oppo without an HD set. 

I've seen some LGs around that upscale for cheap ( and they have component - they were the hot ticket about 6 months back ) so you'd have a transition DVD player and you'd likely gain a bit of smoothness from the Farouja on your GAO.

I'll sell you mine if you want. I'd guess it has less than 20 movies watched on it.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Wow Pioneer stuff is usually bulletproof.


That's what I thought too, that's why I bought it. It started with a peekaboo disc drawer; I'd open it and it would immediately slide closed again before I could get a DVD disc in. After a few tries it would stay open like it's supposed to. I got used to that little game. But recently something else (I don't know what) started acting up; it won't play more than ten minutes and then the image goes BLINK! BLINK! BLINK! and I end up with a blank screen. Grrrrrr.....

Thanks for reminding me about the Faroudja DCDi thing - it's important. I guess I'll get a higher end Panasonic instead.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

> JW that's not the indication from the quote below
> 
> 
> > transmitted _ [b[over DVI connections[/b]_ between two HDCP-enabled devices.


Is the Oppo DHCP compliant? No mention of it. I don't think it can be without an HDMI-out.


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

HDMI/DCHP compliant is an issue when the studio’s get together and start putting out HD DVD’s which in my opinion will be quite awhile. 

Once these little gems hit the streets, the studios are going to have to convince Blockbuster etc. to carry them. The rental outlets won’t get involved until there is an agreed upon standard…

HDMI/DCHP compliant is an issue when the studio’s get together and start putting out HD DVD’s which in my opinion will be quite awhile. 

Once these little gems hit the streets, the studios are going to have to convince Blockbuster etc. to carry them. The rental outlets won’t get involved until there is an agreed upon standard…

The Battle Continues

Next in this long line of logic. The rental stores won’t carry them until there are enough units in homes to make it profitable to rent them.

Then and only then will the compliancy and copyright issue become and issues in the meantime go and buy what works well for you in your budget.

Next in this long line of logic. The rental stores won’t carry them until there are enough units in homes to make it profitable to rent them.

Then and only then will the compliancy and copyright issue become and issues in the meantime go and buy what works well for you in your budget.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

An interesting post.

To be sure.

An interesting post.

To be sure.


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

The OPPO arrived !!!! Hooked it up to my 61”CRT and both the sound and the picture where sooo much better than the Samsung I had. 

Can’t wait to take this baby for a run when my HD TV arrives next week.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

stinand said:


> The OPPO arrived !!!! Hooked it up to my 61”CRT and both the sound and the picture where sooo much better than the Samsung I had.
> 
> Can’t wait to take this baby for a run when my HD TV arrives next week.


What model of TV did you go for Andy?


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## Jacklar (Jul 23, 2005)

So if a LCD monitor had DVI inputs could the Oppo play on it? Playing DVDs or running a game console through it?


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

I bought a Toshiba 62hmx85 for a blazing price. I compared it to the rest and this one came out on top. I’ve also had an old 61” Toshiba which has served me well so I’m a Toshiba man again.

Jacklar
I don’t know if you can do that I might try it in the next couple of days.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

stinand said:


> I bought a Toshiba 62hmx85 for a blazing price. I compared it to the rest and this one came out on top. I’ve also had an old 61” Toshiba which has served me well so I’m a Toahiba man again.


Wow... I couldn't fit that into my door!!!!  Will you be selling popcorn?


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

Popcorn?? First I’ve got to get rid of my old Toshiba CRT 61” still a great set but it ain’t HD.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

used to be jwoodget said:


> Wow... I couldn't fit that into my door!!!!  Will you be selling popcorn?


That (170.0(W) x 104.1(H) x 46.4(D) cm) would fit through a door easily. It's only 18 or 19 inches deep. That sounds like it's smaller than my 3 year-old 51" rear-projection Toshiba HDTV. Of course mine is a CRT rear projection.

Congrats Stinand!


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

Got it and loving it ...The downside? The bad SD looks really bad !!!! I also find myself watching stuff I normally wouldn’t and remain mesmerized for hours.

I think the black surround works so much better than the current silver color that many companies are offering. 

I also bought a highly praised OPPO DVD player this renders DVDs onto a high def screen with phenomenal clarity and at less then $300.00 it’s a steal.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/features/004343.html


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Anyone have any experience using one of the new projectors for a main TV? I hear they have a very sharp picture and, unless I'm mistaken, a person could have almost any size screen they wanted. Depending on how big your wall is.

What brand is best? What type to avoid?


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> Anyone have any experience using one of the new projectors for a main TV? I hear they have a very sharp picture and, unless I'm mistaken, a person could have almost any size screen they wanted. Depending on how big your wall is.
> 
> What brand is best? What type to avoid?


Most will only display 1024x768 in terms of resolution (a few good ones will go up to 1200x960). The problem with all of these projection technologies is based around the longtivity of the Bulb. And the bulb is EXPENSIVE! $200-300 on avaerage. And they only last 2-3 years.

Call me a stick in the mud or a luddite, When I bought my HDTV I bought a Sony 34" CRT set (Toshiba and Panasonic both make good HDTV CRT sets as well). LCD (NOT LCD projection) and Plasma should have similar longetivity as CRT's (with the CRT edging them out).

Don't get me wrong... it would be fun to have a projector and do outdoor movies on a sheet hung from the garage door, but these home entertainment projectors are a ripoff as they have to down-convert the HDTV signal to match their resolution (so what was the point of HDTV in the first place).

I highly recommend going to www.digitalhomecanada.ca to look for answers to these kinds of questions.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Good stuff, daJonesy.  

But that link is non-functional. And I'd really like to learn more about this.....


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> Good stuff, daJonesy.
> 
> But that link is non-functional. And I'd really like to learn more about this.....


Sorry... www.digitalhomecanada.com

And make sure to check out the forums.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Cool! 

Thanks, da_Jonesy


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

Well - I'm a big CRT fan - but I'd be very surprised if you could actually resolve anywhere near HDTV resolutions on a 34" tube. 

On the topic of digital front projectors - with most current models - the bulbs normally last 2000-4000 hours. That's quite a bit of viewing in 2-3 years, but I guess anything is possible. 

Also - don't use a wall (unless it's been properly prepared) or a bedsheet if you want a good picture. You can make quite good screens for cheap or buy expensive ones - but the picture quality will be worth that hassle and/or the cost...


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

RobTheGob said:


> Well - I'm a big CRT fan - but I'd be very surprised if you could actually resolve anywhere near HDTV resolutions on a 34" tube.


Not at all... In fact I would say the exact same thing about every other technology except for CRT. My 17" CRT Monitor does 1600x1200... so it isn't hard to think that a 34" CRT could do easily 1900x1080 (which is 1080i), which BTW it does handle... 1080i, 720p and 480i (but everything does 480).


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I keep hearing amazing stuff about OLED's. How they are going to change the world and revoloutionise the whole TV/monitor world...

Anyone got any good info on OLED's?


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

Sony's is releasing smaller versions of their SXRD RPTV:

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000123054673/

I have seen the original 70" model a couple times ... drool!!!!

I currently have a Sony 34XBR900 ... absolutely love it ... just itchin' for a bigger screen


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

da_jonesy said:


> Not at all... In fact I would say the exact same thing about every other technology except for CRT. My 17" CRT Monitor does 1600x1200... so it isn't hard to think that a 34" CRT could do easily 1900x1080 (which is 1080i), which BTW it does handle... 1080i, 720p and 480i (but everything does 480).


Sure - I never argued that it wasn't possible. But virtually every 34" HD monitor that I've seen had very low resolution - due to the low res shadow mask. My front projector can take a 1080i signal just fine - but it can't resolve anywhere near that. 

I'd have to see an HD resolution test pattern on it to believe it...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I was just at a major electronics outlet the other day, checking out HDTV monitors. The one I was at had a Star Choice HD box set up as a feed. So the picture should have been awesome.

But it wasn't.  

It was fuzzy and a bit muddy. Even on the CRT's. I could have expected a fuzzy picture on the rear projectors...but on the flat screen CRT's???

What gives?

About five years ago I visited a Best Buy store in Billings Montana...not exactly the center of the electronics universe...and sat in front of a curved screen, non-16X9 34 inch TV set from RCA or Samsung or something (read: not "high-end") to watch what would officially be my very first exposure to HDTV. (they had an American SAT HDTV system hooked up to this nondescript monitor, BTW.)

I was blown away! So was everyone else in the room. We kept on trying to reach out and touch the screen because we couldn't believe how totally awesome the picture was!

The broadcast was of a band in concert. There were plenty of closeups of the musicians playing. I actually got up and placed my eyeball about three inches away from the TV screen...and the edges of the light and dark areas looked like they had been laser-cut! No active pixels or granulation in the darks. Nothing even REMOTELY resembling a fuzzy or soft edge!!

It was a friggin moving photograph!! With perfect lifelike colours!! I was dazzled!! 

The other two oilpatch techies who were with me were similarly moved. When we got back to the rig we all had important jobs to do...we were then in what is called the "zone of interest"on that particular well....but all we could talk about for the next two days was that unbelieveably lifelike HDTV that we had seen in the medium sized town of Billings, and how the picture seemed to be totally alive!

And on a cheapo TV set, too!

I've never seen anything that rivalled it up here in Canada. Or even came close. Every time I visit a major electronics outlet I spend time in their carefully darkened HDTV room...and I take a moment to get my eyeball right up close to the fanciest HDTV that they have. Just to see what the edge definition is really like (I have been deeply into video for almost two decades).

Verdict?

Junk. Fuzzy pixellated edges. Active pixels in the blacks...which aren't really very black unless you have a very good imagination. Colours are iffy, at best.

They always tell me..."You have to stand back about three to five feet to get the actual effect"....or..."we have too many TV's set up on this one system and the picture quality suffers because of it"... 

So....I ask again....what gives??

Why is so-called HDTV in Canada so prone to fuzzy pixellated edges and lousy blacks? Why does it not look very good when viewed from close up?

And why did that cheapo 4X5 TV set look so darned good in a place like Billings Montana almost six years ago?? To ALL who were there?? 

Anyone?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

No idea MacNutt. But Rogers HD in the GTA produces superb pictures on a range of stations (particularly PBS but also others such as TMN HD). It's so good that it beats out 3:2 upscaled DVDs over an HDMI connection on our TV. I'll admit blacks aren't the darkest on an LCD (compared to a plasma) but the resolution is stunning.

P.S. Isn't the above post a duplicate of a previous post? Déja vu?


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> So....I ask again....what gives??
> 
> Why is so-called HDTV in Canada so prone to fuzzy pixellated edges and lousy blacks? Why does it not look very good when viewed from close up?
> 
> ...


Here is my take on it... 

Satellite HD feeds are highly compressed as opposed to Cable (which has higher bandwidth and therefor less compression). The Absolute best option (if you live near a major urban center) is to get your HDTV signal free from an OTA (Over The Air) signal. OTA signals are not compressed so you get the full HDTV signal.

I use a Samsung 151 HDTV Tuner with a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenae with a Sony 34HS420 34" HDTV. The Picture is AMAZING... my problem is that the ONE channel I want (PBS from Buffalo) I can't get because of the Niagara Escarpment being in the way.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

RobTheGob said:


> Sure - I never argued that it wasn't possible. But virtually every 34" HD monitor that I've seen had very low resolution - due to the low res shadow mask. My front projector can take a 1080i signal just fine - but it can't resolve anywhere near that.
> 
> I'd have to see an HD resolution test pattern on it to believe it...


Sorry I was talking about a CRT Tube (I have the Sony 34HS420) as opposed to a CRT projection (which I admit to knowing little about).


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I have spent a great deal of my scarce spare time checking out HDTV. At every major and minor electronics outlet in this area. For the past five years or so.

But I've NEVER seen anything that has made me want to spend the extra cash to jump in. Not just yet, anyway...

And I have NEVER EVER sen anything that even comes CLOSE to that astoundingly good "moving-photograph" picture that I saw in Billings Montana, on a cheapo TV set, back in 1999.

The cost back then? 900 bucks for the American HDTV Sat system, plus monthly subscription costs. About six hundred for the cheapo 34 inch curved screen 4X5 HDTV set. Costs would have come wayyy down since then, I'll bet.

So...why don't we have anything like that here in Canada just yet? Almost six years later????


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

NOTE: (just to clarify...for anyone who didn't get it in the first pass...)

I have made it my business to check out every single HDTV display at EVERY SINGLE electronics outlet in this area...for the past five or so years...

NONE of them have EVER had anything that even comes close to what I saw in Billings Montana back in 1999. On display in a "Best Buy" big box store...

Why?


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

MacNutt said:


> I was just at a major electronics outlet the other day, checking out HDTV monitors. The one I was at had a Star Choice HD box set up as a feed. So the picture should have been awesome.
> 
> But it wasn't.
> 
> ...


You had an HDTV and a HD settop box, but was the signal or channel an HD channel? HD settop boxes, at least cable ones can pass both SD and HD signals, at least the Rogers ones. What you're describing sounds like a SD or digital channel on a HDTV. HD should be sharp, detailed and colourful. The best channel I've seen is Detroit PBS HD channel. I've NEVER seen a box or department store that's actually had a HDTV set fed by a HD channel. Usually they play SD channels or a DVD.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

What I and so many others saw that day in the Best Buy store was a cheapo Samsung or RCA (I can't recall) black 4X5 curved screen monitor that was hooked up to an American SAT HDTV box. One that was readily available to the buying public. For about 900 bucks.

And the picture that it delivered dazzled the living dogpoo out of everyone who was there.  

No crowds of people around the big widescreen TV's that day. Everyone was ignoring the early plasma TV's, as well.

We were ALL crowded around that 34 inch normal looking TV set that had the astounding resoloution! You could hear people whispering "WOW" under their breath...

To this DAY, I've never seen anything like it here in Canada.

And I've looked. Trust me on this.


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

Macnutt if you’ve been “deeply involved with video” you should have figured out that sticking your head close to the screen will not serve any useful purpose. Video screens having viewing distances depending on the screen and the type of technology used , they are usually measured in feet..


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Actually Andy...you are quite wrong on this...

I always take the time to sick my cranial apertures right up close to the HDTV screen. Just as I did that day back in 1999 in Billings, Montana. 

I'm looking for fuzzy edges, pixellation. Active pixels in the blacks. The usual suspects...

I want to see if the Canadian gear even comes CLOSE to measuring up to the American gear from almost six years back. Especially on a cheapo TV set. 

It never has. Not even close.

Anyone care to explain to me WHY????


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

Yeah okay I believe you? What was the source the picture of the Billings Montana HDTV.OTA ? Sat, cable?

Also what was the TV ? DLP ,CRT, Plazma?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> What was the source?


......

*The Fog of Tequila*......I bet even the local waitresses looked like movie stars too. 

••••

It's like comparing 35m film to a polaroid. The polaroid looks okay until you see the detail in the 35 mm - then the 35 mm looks great until you see the detail in a 5x4.

A current HD set with a clean HS feed is perfect right out to the horizon and way beyond what the best DVDs will produce. No non HD set will even come close.
Can it look "good"? - yes - so does a pointillist painting......will it have detail and colour range?.....no.

Sows ear, silk purse n all.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> I want to see if the Canadian gear even comes CLOSE to measuring up to the American gear from almost six years back. Especially on a cheapo TV set.
> 
> It never has. Not even close.
> 
> Anyone care to explain to me WHY????


I would guess that most of the stuff (like Plasma Screens) are not TRUE HDTV... they are in fact EDTV.

_
Digital Television (DTV) Vs. High Definition Television (HDTV)

Digital television can be a very confusing subject to the uninitiated. Many people are surprised to learn that a difference exists between Digital Television and High definition television. When surveyed many consumers simply do not know the difference.

We believe the inability of consumers to grasp the difference between DTV and HDTV, is a major reasons why HDTV is failing to become a mainstream offering in North America.

So what is the difference between DTV and HDTV?

Digital television is a generic term which refers to how a broadcasting signal is transmitted, but did you know that, the digital broadcast signal can actually be delivered to your digital monitor or television in 18 different formats?

The Digital television formats were defined by an organization called the Advanced Television Systems Committee or ATSC.

Although there are eighteen different digital television formats, there are two key types:


Standard definition formats (SDTV) - 12 types; 
High definition formats (HDTV) - 6 types. 

A “Digital television” can decode and display the 12 SDTV formats but only an HDTV can display all 12 SDTV and 1 or more HDTV formats.

The following is a brief overview of the SDTV and HDTV formats.

Standard Definition (SD) 

There are 12 SD formats. The primary difference in the 12 formats is how much bandwidth each format uses, and the quality of picture each format delivers. Generally speaking, the better the picture quality the more bandwidth required to deliver the signal.

*The most common SDTV formats is 480i and 480p (also known as Enhanced Definition television or EDTV). Despite being a digital format, SDTV is not a guarantee of excellent picture quality. In fact, most videophiles agree that a good quality analog signal far outperforms most SDTV signals.
*
High Definition (HD)

Although experts will argue over which HDTV format delivers the best picture quality, they all agree on the superiority of the 6 HDTV formats over analog or SDTV.

A discussion of the six formats is beyond the scope of this article, but if you’ve been investigating HDTV televisions you’ve probably learned of the two most common: 1080i and 720p.

The "i" and the "p" in the format names refer to how the picture gets on the screen. In interlaced scanning, every second line on the screen is scanned in a sixtieth of a second, followed by the remaining half of the scan lines in the next sixtieth. The odd lines are scanned first, and then filled in by the even lines. In progressive the lines are scanned sequentially. Very few sets on the market today support 720p.

From a consumer perspective, the following are the key differences when comparing the two types of Digital television:

1. HDTV delivers superior picture quality;
2. HDTV delivers superior audio quality;
3. SDTV programming is much cheaper to produce and deliver;
4. SDTV is much cheaper for consumers to display;
_


Half of the guys in futureshop don't even know what the standards are these days... many a time I see them selling EDTV Plasma's as HDTVs.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ummm DJ you are just confusing the issue. 

There are monitor capability standards and there are broadcast standards.

Most HD is BROADCAST in 720p with some 1080i.

Most sets sold these days are capable of 720p native and 1080i - very few and only expensive sets are capable of 1080p native and there is no broadcast of that standard.

DVDs are generally ouput to 480p and then upscaled either by the DVD unit or the HDTV set.
You cannot add information so the upscaling in theory just produces a more filmlike picture - much like a reformatted film does in an iMax theatre.
It looks good but does not have the information content of a work filmed in iMax.

There are all sorts of "in progress" changes going on as the broadcast and the emerging HDDVD field settle into a cost effective and good looking set of standards.

There are some good definitions here but little explanation.
http://technology360.typepad.com/technology360/2004/08/glossary_of_hdt.html

and much here which may leave you confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV.

Bottom line - ALL HD ready sets will give you a startling picture WHEN THE SOURCE IS GOOD.

There are some reference channels - Tracks Head, Smart Gardening and TSN live HD sports show how good it can really be.

DVD is not there yet offering only about 1/2 - 1/4 the quality level of 720p and up.

Yet within even that standard sets and DVD players will differ markedly in colour fidelity, saturation etc so its way more than just information content.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Good point da_jonesy. Most big box stores don't have a clue. But there some excellent specialist stores that do (at least in the GTA). Go to an expert unless you really know what you're doing.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Ummm DJ you are just confusing the issue.


No... It's confusing on it's own. Case in point....

42" Plasma 

or

13" LCD TV 

These TV's are advertised as being HDTV capable... but in fact they are EDTV... So Any HDTV signal they get is down-converted. And since these TV's have fixed pixel sizes (you can't change the size of the physical pixel in a Plasma or LCD set). 

Here is some more on EDTV...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDTV

All you have to do is look at one of these TV's next to a true HDTV set and you will see the difference. And to your point yes you can get a good picture with most modern sets, however for the REAL HDTV experience you need a true HDTV 720 or 1080 with an uncompressed HDTV source (either OTA or Cable).


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Why is it confusing????..... it clearly says EDTV on both items - not HD.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> Why is it confusing????..... it clearly says EDTV on both items - not HD.


Go into Futureshop and ask them to HDTV TV's... most of the sales guys will show them as HDTV sets... And often the end talkers will say that these sets are HDTV.

Generally... Big Box Stores will sell any LCD and Plasma TV as HDTV when in fact they are not.

Case in point... Look at the description for that 42" Plasma. It says it has a 852 x 480 pixel display. Well That is not 1920x1080 or even 1280x720. Yet it says it supports 1080 and 720.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

When are we going to get OLED's??

The promise with that particular technology is ...

Cheaper prices, longer screen life than plasma or LCD. No backlight needed (read: thinner). Better edge definition. Brighter colours.

Did I mention cheaper? Like about half of what a big screen flat TV costs today. From what I've heard, OLED's will put plasma screens out to pasture. Once and for all.

Anyone heard anything about this?


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

Not all Plasmas are EDTV there are many that are with resolutions of 1,280 by 768. So what’s your point ? EDTV is EDTV and HDTV is HDTV.

MAcNutt... OLED seen small examples of it don’t hold your breath for it to show up at you local FS as the biggest screen is 21” and mucho dollaro. Kodak has some cameras and Pioneer I believe is making small units for cell phones.

I’ve looked really close at the OLED screen and all I saw was me.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

stinand said:


> Not all Plasmas are EDTV there are many that are with resolutions of 1,280 by 768. So what’s your point ? EDTV is EDTV and HDTV is HDTV.


Crap... how hard is this to explain? The issue is that the "average" consumer is often mislead into thinking that Plasma screens are HDTV compliant when in fact many are not. 

If you have a Plasma that has that resolution... sure it could be considered an HDTV even though the resolution should be... 1280x720 (and not 1280x768). But that isn't the point.

The point here was that Macnutt said he has not seen (to date) anything in local electronic stores that rivaled his first experience with seeing HDTV. My explanation is that often, lower resolution EDTV's are sold as HDTV's when in fact they are not.

One of the other reasons is that in many cases places like Futureshop hook up Analog or SD sources to HDTV's which many display poorly.

The point being that even the best HDTV set can look like crap with a poor signal.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Maybe a visit to the SSI optometrist is overdue? 

Certainly, many sales people will gloss over the specs. There is a huge range in price for 42" plasma TVs. Wonder why?


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

Personally I never shop at FS as it would seem that you should not .. A standard TV cannot show HDTV a EDTV unit can, so technically you are receiving and HD signal thus it can be called an HDTV. True its down scaled but you are still seeing the broadcast with better quality than a standard TV . I know one thing it ain’t a standard TV.

The electronics industry is full of these tricky little terms. You can now buy an HDTV antenna . Seeing as HD broadcasts on UHF the antenna is the same as a good old analog antenna .. 

Having just gone through the process of buying an HDTV it was frustrating to rarely be able to see a live HDTV signal . Some places have recorder a ball game on a PVR but after the signal has been split run through some DA’s it’s not the signal that you see at home . However at least I could compare pictures from the same source. 

Your point about 1280x720 vs. 1280x768 is minute at best ,and involves the overscanning of the original and the fact that most of what you see was originally 1080i anyway leaves you with some weird math.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

stinand said:


> MAcNutt... OLED seen small examples of it don’t hold your breath for it to show up at you local FS as the biggest screen is 21” and mucho dollaro. Kodak has some cameras and Pioneer I believe is making small units for cell phones.
> 
> I’ve looked really close at the OLED screen and all I saw was me.


The information I have is that OLED's (organic light emitting diodes) are being used in lots of cellphone screens right now, because they use little power and have a great picture. And I have also seen a report that claims a 30+ inch screen OLED TV has been demonstrated recently at a trade show in Asia. It was insanely thin, and the picture was terrific, according to the writer. "Better than plasma or LCD"...according to him.

That same writer claimed that a brand new factory in China was gearing up to produce big screen OLED's for the consumer television market. Perhaps as early as this fall/winter season.

If the promise of OLED's...which were originally developed in the late seventies by Kodak...is ever fully realised, then Plasma and LED screens will be yesterday's news.

Stay tuned...


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

I just read that that ISF calibration is mandatory to get the most out of your TV gear.
And so is owning the remote...
But I would like to know what it is, if it needs to be done by a technician and if there are more economical ways to optimized the set-ups on the TV. I know there are calibration dvd's and I would like to know if anyone used them with success.

I am trying to find out if I can trust my eyes or if a calibration tool would be better to optimize the picture .


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

I've been running an HDTV tuner for just over two years and am still very disappointed with the quantity and quality of available programming. It's really funny to have some sales droid talking about how great HDTV looks when the aspect ratio is screwed up or there is massive pixelation.

Funny like a clown, that is...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I agree.

One of the factors that has kept me from buying into HDTV is the lack of available content. And I have SAT TV. 

Another thing I don't like very much is the fact that the 16X9 TV's that I've seen running all seem to stretch the standard TV picture out till it looks a bit bizarre. 

Kirstie Alley looks like she weighs four hundred pounds on one of the newer 16X9's, instead of two-fifty. I can handle Kirstie at two-fifty....four hundred is a tad yucky. Takes my mind off of her comedic abilities, if ya know what I mean.

Also...How come the picture quality still seems to be pretty crappy? No matter what sort of HD system the store has attached to the HDTV? When I get my eye right up close to the screen, the edges are all soft and pixellated. Just like a regular TV set.  

Five years ago I sat down in front of a cheapo (square screen) HDTV set in a "Best Buy" store in Billings Montana, and witnessed an astoundingly good SAT HDTV picture. 

It was awesome! I got my eye right next to the screen...and I could NOT detect ANY softness or pixellation on the edges! It was a moving photograph with perfect colour. Razor sharp edges. Everyone in the store was absolutely dazzled...we all talked about it in hushed tones. As if it might disappear suddenly or something. There were crowds around that 32 inch TV set. Everyone was ignoring the big screens in the room...

So, why don't we have anything like that here? 

Are ALL of the electronics stores simply unable to display a TV picture of that quality? Even in their "specialty TV rooms"? Despite the fact that it would be an "instant-sell" for a rather large segment of the buying public? 

I keep on checking every major electronics outlet, each time I'm in the city. There is NOTHING like this on display in my area. Even five years after I first saw it in a smallish city in Montana.

What gives?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Jeez MacNutt, you're like a broken record.... That must be the fifth time you've retold that story.

16:9 HDTVs have options for stretching or zooming non 16:9 content BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THEM. Bit like cruise control in stop and go traffic......

Meanwhile, there is some excellent HD programming and if you have an upconverting DVD player, your DVDs will never look better.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Understood, Jim. And...like you...I have "heard all of that before"...

But I haven't actually SEEN what you refer to. Not EVER, here in Canada. 

I've seen a sort of weak imitation of it around here... at a buddy's house, when he first got satellite HDTV and a really BIG (expensive) monitor about a year or so ago....but it was still NOTHING like what I saw in Montana, that november afternoon in 2000. 

I sit here, waiting to be dazzled. Once again.

Not happening just yet.


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

For podcasting fans ... there is an HDTV podcast on iTunes that I have been listening for a few weeks:

Just search in iTunes for HDTV ... the name of the podcast is:

HDTV and Home Theatre Podcast

With respect to calibration ... I had my TV done when I purchased it a couple years ago ... I figured it made sense to spend a little extra to get the best performance.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

MacNutt said:


> But I haven't actually SEEN what you refer to. Not EVER, here in Canada.


 Try PBS-HD, TSN-HD, TMN-HD and Global-HD and CTV-HD (some programming such as CSI and ER, for example). Should be available over cable. It is in Toronto and Montreal.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's awful Macnutt - you don't want HD. 
Stick with the Brownie camera it's perfect, it's all the detail you can see.
And the built in flash...







.. is TRULY "dazzling".


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

RobTheGob said:


> I've been running an HDTV tuner for just over two years and am still very disappointed with the quantity and quality of available programming. It's really funny to have some sales droid talking about how great HDTV looks when the aspect ratio is screwed up or there is massive pixelation.
> 
> Funny like a clown, that is...



I’ve had my set now for two weeks and overall find the quality to be excellent. Some stations are using cheesy tricks up scaling the signal with mixed results. Last week I watched Rome on TMN and it was stunning... Is it as good as the HD material that we edit in the studio?? NO, but then again neither is the SD quality.

I also find the non HD material on the HD channels to be vastly superior to the same SD broadcast.



What set are you running?


Macnutt you refer to a square HDTV??? No such animal, don’t know what you where watching.


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

stinand said:


> I’ve had my set now for two weeks and overall find the quality to be excellent. Some stations are using cheesy tricks up scaling the signal with mixed results. Last week I watched Rome on TMN and it was stunning... Is it as good as the HD material that we edit in the studio?? NO, but then again neither is the SD quality.
> 
> I also find the non HD material on the HD channels to be vastly superior to the same SD broadcast.
> 
> ...


I run an ExVu 6000 on a DLP front projector.

There are plenty of 4x3 HDTV's (which many people would refer to as "square"). As long as the display can resolve 720 lines in a 16x9 window, it qualifies...

There is just too much compression applied which limits bandwidth per channel. Many people are "wowed" by HD, but after you point out the flaws, they usually say "yeah - I see what you are referring to, now". Most people prefer to live in the bliss known as ignorance..


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

I stand corrected, it makes no sense to me why anyone would want to watch a 16x9 native format on a 4x3 TV unless they just want to watch non HD digital broadcasts.
I have seen some rather marginal HD on Bell as they have some bandwidth issues due to their sat configuration. SC and Rogers is very good . 

Have you seen native HD as a comparison? What flaws are you seeing?


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Mac Doc (and others)... Is plasma or dlp etc. in HD signifcantly better? 

Explanation: I did the rounds for a new TV a year ago and was able to do A/B comparisons between CRT and the new (more expensive) technologies. On a standard good quality b'cast CRT is WAYYY superior to any flat screen or DLP. This is based on a digital signal in PAL format (ie half way between NTSC and 'low' HDTV). In the end I bought a 16x9 CRT with built-in digital tuner for about 70% cheaper that the equivalent LCD TV (prices have moved since, so the deference would probably be smaller now). Everything was better on the CRT: skin tones, edge definitions, refresh, bluriness, you name it.

I don't know if there are HD CRTs around, but if there are, would the comparison still hold?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Moscool,

HD capable CRTs are available. Indeed, I think CRTs still beat out LCDs, DLPs and plasma for overall colour depth and perceived image quality but large CRTs are extremely difficult to handle (weight) and the thrust of market is going big and thin. LCDs offer the best definition but their blacks are nowhere near a plasma black and motion artifacts are obvious in "action" movies. Plasmas offer CRT-like depth but I think these may have seen their heyday. DLPs seem like a good compromise (although the bulbs wear out, they are replaceable). I've no complaints about the 37" LCD I bought though (and prices are dropping significantly - 35% in a year). Makes for a stunning computer moniter too.


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## Ramboman (Dec 13, 2004)

I only jumped into this thread for the first time today and I would like to offer my personal experience:

I work for an electronics store and I have had the opportunity to attend shows such as CES and dealer shows from Sony, Panasonic, etc.. over the last few years and I have looked at all the technologies offered and I agree with most opinions on this thread (HDTV is exciting, thin is in, DLP is good alternative to Plasma/LCD, etc..). 

The bottom line is that no technology (currently being offered) has it all.
When it came time to purchase a new TV for home I settled for a 4:3 (square) CRT HDTV (32") as it offered the best compromised solution (other than thin!).

PROS: 
-HDTV
-Great color
-Regular TV looks good
-Price

Cons:
-Size
-16:9 is "shrunk" due to sizing bars (it can be zoomed without bars, but with side view loss)

As for Stinand's comment "it makes no sense to me why anyone would want to watch a 16x9 native format on a 4x3 TV unless they just want to watch non HD digital broadcasts." I would suggest one would want to watch a mix of non HD and HD broadcasts. If choosing a 16x9 set for this purpose, my experience is that the 4:3 broadcast looks horrible stretched on a 16:9 (ever after built in correction) but the 16:9 broadcast looks pretty damn good corrected (zoomed) on a 4:3 set.

From what Macnutt describes, I believe he saw a HDTV CRT that fateful day in Arkansas (or wherever he was...)

My two cents….


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Hallelujah! Some reason in this thread. The plain fact is that Direct View CRT offer the best Picture Quality/cost than any technology available today. And granted that my 34" 200 lb monster is big and heavy... I don't move my TV's that often (and I truly feel for the poor sucker who thinks he can steal my set... instant hernia if you try and lift it by yourself).

On a related matter... I finally gave up on OTA HDTV (Someone is coming tomorrow to buy my Samsung 151 HD Tuner and ChannelMaster 4228 Antenna). The Niagara Escarpment wins, and lo... I will not in the immediate future be able to get PBS in HDTV as the Mrs. has dictated an ascetics policy on our house so no UHF antenna's and/or Satellite dishes.

Curses to Cogeco for not picking up PBS HD... who cares about watching Friends in HDTV, Nova in HDTV would be truly awesome.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

CRTs are excellent both direct and rear projection but they will not do the contrast or daylight resistance of a DLP.

The CRT blacks are the very best tho the new DLPs with the shutters apparently do address that ( my only complaint with my Samsung the blacks are not quite as deep as they were on the Toshiba RP CRT BUT the text is incredible on the DLP , no need ever to align it and as said a good compromise and a long supported life.

I trust neither LCD or plasma in the long run and 8,000 hours on a DLP bulb is a long running time.
CRT and DLP are in my opinion both excellent long lived technologies with the CRT being the cost performance leader tho DLPs are sure getting there.


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## RobTheGob (Feb 10, 2003)

I personally don't see the problem with watching an HD broadcast on a 4x3 display. They will have a 16x9 mode that will be functionally the same as watching on a 16x9 display, only with black bars. I've been doing HT for very close to 20 years, so I have no problems with black bars... 

A 4x3 display only loses about 10% of it's size when displaying a 16x9 image, whereas a 16x9 display loses more than 20% when displaying 4x3. Don't get me started ranting about zoom modes...

I've watched SC HD quite closely in the past and never saw anything that would lead me to believe that it's anything better than BEV. I've never seen Roger's or Shaw's offerings...

A couple of other points...

CRT's offer much better black levels than any of the digital technologies. But they also a major PITA to setup and keep in tune.

DLP's do have replaceable bulbs, but so do LCD's! DLP's have a much higher fill ratio than LCD's, so there is not normally any screendoor effect with DLP, a problem on LCD that drives me crazy!


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