# What is your electricity bill?



## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

When my mother was alive and living at home, it was around $115US a month. After she spent weeks in the hospital, it fell to $95 a month. I just received an update from the power company, telling me it will be $80 a month - an adjustment.

This year, I haven't used the dryer and hung a clothes line outside. Nor the air conditioner, except for one hour. I sleep downstairs where it's cooler next to the fan. Suits me fine. I will try shutting down my computers at night and see how much juice that saves. Almost all of my light bulbs are fluorescent. A friend pays $69 a month, and I want to go there, or lower. 

I am very thrifty and green, and the savings feels good. This is my green power-down challenge. What is your bill?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Normal bill for our 1100 sq. ft. home averages $185 month in summer, $240 in winter.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

SINC said:


> Normal bill for our 1100 sq. ft. home averages $185 month in summer, $240 in winter.


I have oil heat, and the bills come to $400+ a delivery. Very scary, and I'm wondering how I can reduce that.  

Your .gif bug makes me itchy.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Thankfully I live in the lap of luxury...a townhouse with all utilities included.

It will be a nightmare when I have a real house and I have to worry about those little bills.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MissGulch said:


> I have oil heat, and the bills come to $400+ a delivery. Very scary, and I'm wondering how I can reduce that.
> 
> Your .gif bug makes me itchy.


Natural gas heat here is $152/month year round on budget billing.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> I have oil heat, and the bills come to $400+ a delivery. Very scary, and I'm wondering how I can reduce that.....


Miss Gulch, when we first bought this 100 year-old house, which looked structurally quite sound. we were spending over $500 a month on natural gas in the winter, and the house was still absolutely freezing. We slept under all the blankets and down sleeping bags that we owned, plus fully-clothed.  

I considered selling because I couldn't afford to heat the place. :-( 

Luckily, the electrician was fishing wires from attic to basement and remarked that we had no insulation in our walls.  
This turned out to be good news, as it meant we could then do something about our temperature catastrophe!

We had cellulose insulation blown in to all the walls and attic. This cost $1,200 - less than three months heating bills.

Our heating costs are now about $150 a month. :yawn: 

Shocking!

Advice: Insulate.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> I have oil heat, and the bills come to $400+ a delivery. Very scary, and I'm wondering how I can reduce that.


For heating, homes lose a lot of energy through the ground and roof. Make sure that you have good insulation in both those areas. If your furnace is old, a new one will likely be much more efficient.

For electricity, refrigerators and freezers are major energy consumers. Newer models are significantly more efficient than older ones. Also look for the power "vampires". These are all the electronic items with standby lights, clocks etc. They are never off and always suck up power. To the extent that you consider it reasonable, unplug them when not in use (a powerbar is more convenient to turn off, though) and, when you are looking to replace them, pay attention to standby power usage on the new item.

CFL light bulbs are also quite popular and cheap. They use about 1/4 the power of incandescent bulbs. You may also have fixtures in the bathroom and dining room that have far more bulbs than are needed. Remove a couple.

Reduce hot-water usage with a low-flow showerhead and, when the hot water tank needs replacing, consider an on-demand system or a highly efficient conventional tank system.

For many of the above, talk to your electric utility or check out their website. They often have programs to help out. It may be only $50 or so, but it's something.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

I now have what is known as a 'navy shower'......you wet yourself, turn off the shower, soap up for as long as you like then turn on the shower again to rinse off......I've noticed a distinct drop in our gas bill even during the summer.

My wife still can't help herself to long hot shower....but as she's pregnant I don't like to complain


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## djstp (Mar 10, 2006)

Loafer said:


> My wife still can't help herself to long hot shower....but as she's pregnant I don't like to complain



:clap: 

hell hath no furry like a pregnant woman scorned


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## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

I think if I average it out, I pay $75 every 2 months for Hydro; 1 person, 1100 sq. ft townhome. Nat. Gas if I average it would be about $100 a month...


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

... I pay $21 a month in equalized payments on my condo, don't know if it may end up being higher as I just moved into the place but this is based on the average of the previous year for the previous owner. It may be higher as I have way more gadgets than the previous owner. In my old apt I paid around $27/mo on average. 

Gas heating and hot water is part of the $277/mo strata fees. They put a new 99% efficient Viessmann condensing boiler last year which apparently have been saving them a heckuva lot of money. I wish heat and hot water was metered suite by suite so I'd have incentive to save money there. The first thing I did was replaced all the incadescents with fluorescent lights. I also looked at ordering some motion sensor light switches for the hallways. I'm planning to get energy saving appliances for the kitchen soon as well.

When I lived with my dad I was responsible for the gas bill which I paid $183 a mo on equalized payments for. Thanks to the fact we kept the boiler off until November and replaced the hot water tank with a newer mid efficiency one, we got a $1400 refund at the end of the year and his new equalization payments are a lot lower this year.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

It's funny this should come up because I went through all our old utility bills a few weeks ago and put them into Excel. Nerdy yes, but interesting none the less.

Our electricity useage went up after our son was born, went up a little when we moved to a bigger house then spiked in the winter in a our drafty new house that has baseboard heaters in the basement.....we had to keep them on to stop a pipe freezing.

For some reason at our old house we had an electricty spike in February and I can't figure out why, we had all gas heating then and gas cooking so the only thing I can think of was a lot dryer usage

Anyway, I showed my wife and I think seeing it in a graph form made it sink in just a little that we'd have more money to spend on ourselves if we were a bit more careful with stuff.

We haven't used the dryer in a while now and she used to be obsessed about having soft towels!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

$105 a month in winter, and about $200 in the hottest summer months.


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## anal-log (Feb 22, 2003)

$88 electricity and $151 for gas, both on monthly equal payments.
This is for our 2200sq ft home.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

$325 monthly on an equal payment plan. $29 dollars of that is HST. My power bill says I used 72 kW hours a day for June. Our June was cool and rainy. 
3 floors developed, about 1800 sq feet. Dehumidifier on in the basement constantly, and a heat exchanger. 
My bill for June if I wasn't on a an EPP would be $241 including HST.
I hate that our government charges HST on an essential like electricity. Bah!tptptptp


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ErnstNL said:


> My power bill says I used 72 kW hours a day for June.


An important point. To track your progress in conserving energy, you should look at the amount consumed. It does involve estimates (some places do not read meters monthly) but with a couple years' data you can get a good idea. For heating, a quick check of "heating degree days" should also be done for more accuracy and "cooling degree days" for those with air conditioners.

Just looking at price can be misleading.

Also, 72 kwh sounds high, but I don't know what kind of energy a dehumidifier uses. Was the heat on a lot in June and was the temperature often below about 10 degrees?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

My dehumidifier draw 1500 watts, the same as an electric space heater. That can add up in a hurry.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

That is a lot. If it runs at full power half the time, that's over 500 kwh per month.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

ErnstNL said:


> I hate that our government charges HST on an essential like electricity. Bah!tptptptp


I'm guessing that HST does not stand for Happy Sales Tax.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Isn't harmony a happy thing?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

End-Use Consumption of Electricity by End Use and Appliance

Some general information on how much energy the things in our homes use. The data is from the U.S., so things related to space heating and cooling are not so useful.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

$225 or so a month on 3000 sq' with gas heat. Bullfrog will add about $70-90 to that for zero carbon.
My goal is to get it back down around $200 a month. A bit hard with all the computers, aquarium and a hot tub.

I never use the full oven, use microwave and convection oven and post










stickers all over. 

Getting a techie 16 year old to be power smart is a cat herding problem. Using Bullfrog at least takes some pressure off.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

My electric bill for June 20th to July 23rd was $115.68. Part of this was due to the fact that we had to heat the back bedroom with electric heat to keep eight four-week old puppies warm during the coldest June in recorded history here in St.John's. I believe in the policy that if you don't need to use electricity, don't use it. Thus, whole parts of our house are dark. In a 3500 square foot home, with just two adults and 14 dogs, we don't need to light every room. This drives my wife crazy, but it does make sense. 

Cooking is also a way to save on electricity. If one has all sorts of salads and fresh veggies, they don't need to be cooked.


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## vimy (Apr 18, 2006)

Wow just the tread I was looking for. 

Renting a University house. Its probably 1100 sq feet. It has had nobody in it for the past three months yet we are getting just electricity bills for $150.

So thats 150 for nobody in the house for one month with everything "off"

I went down to the house just today and found it was our water heater using this up and had a plumber tell me that was normal because the water heater was in a cold basement. 

I would love your opinion on this. Is it normal for a water heater to burn $150 in actual electric usage for a month with nobody actually using any of the water?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I have a cold basement as well, but I wrapped out hot water tank and turned down the thermostat. Saved a fortune on heat, especially when my son takes a few showers a day some days. The water is just hot enough for showers and washing dishes and clothes. 

Save your money and turn down the thermostat on the water heater.


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## vimy (Apr 18, 2006)

it is currently set at 120. 

I wasnt sure if that was normal. 

Nothing like a first house to break me in on all these little details.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

How old is the water heater? That is a good temp and the basement can't be that cold in winter. Make sure that no one else is tapping in to your electricity.


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## vimy (Apr 18, 2006)

Yah thats what we were thinking. It did not really seem like there was anyone tapped in. Then again I wasnt sure of what I was looking for. 

Basically this one fuse in the house used 1000 actual kwh for the month. That seemed outragous because the house I am living with my family in for 5 people only had 700. 

So the best explanation we had was that it was a faulty water heater. The plumber said it was working fine after looking at it. It is 10 years old though. 

So would that be a case to call the landlord and ask to have the water heater replaced?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Something is wrong, but it could just be something to do with the timing of the meter read (or a mistaken meter read). Read your meter every day for a few days and find out how much power you are using.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Beej might be correct. It could be a faulty meter or a misread meter. You are using more electricity than we do with 3 adults and a 3500 square foot home.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Also, the bill could be for more than just one-month's water heat. It could be for multiple months and/or include connection fees. Look at the fees in detail and, where the kilowatt hours of consumption are identified, a date range should also be provided.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

You'd have to have a 3kW hot water tank running 24 hours a day for the entire month to have it rack up $150... how old is the tank? It's set for 120F and not C right? lol. A lot of tanks are left in cold basements yes. I'd say add foiled insulation wrap to wrap around the hot water tank -- including top and bottom. And if it's an empty house where no one's using the hot water and there's no danger of freezing, why was the tank not shut off?


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## Ravenclaw (Feb 18, 2007)

Our electricity bill is $82 month for our 1090 sq. ft. home. Our gas bill is on equalization billing of $213 per month with a yearly rebate of $300. We are two adults and three teenagers; kids sometimes shower twice a day. Over the last four years or so we have replaced washer, dryer, fridge, freezer, and water heater--all energy saver appliances but don't see much change in our bill.

Don't ask about grocery bill!


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

End of summer energy report:

I was able to find fluorescent light bulbs for my chandelier at Ikea the other day. They cost $8.99US for only two, but the savings will be worth it. 

My electricity bill has been cut by $15 per month since May. 

I bought a Yaris in July. I spent a total of $20 on gas this summer.

My air conditioner was only used once, for one hour, all summer. I slept downstairs where it's cooler, and used the fan which was surprisingly comfortable. 

Next, I have to concern myself with heat conservation for the winter. That's my report.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

before my fire with old wood paneling, old insulation in walls and ceiling and a pretty drafty house I was averaging about $2200 / year for electricity
I have not installed natural gas and don't plan doing so

since the fire I have doubled the insulation in the ceiling, replaced wood paneling with drywall, acoustic ceiling tiles with drywall, properly insulated the walls and properly vented the ceiling and installed two "whirly birds"
also installed remote control ceiling fans in every room except bathroom
NO AIR CONDITIONER
NO humidifier or de-humidifier

new applicances w/ energy star rating
microwave died in fire and didn't replace it

I also bought a 62" tv which is on quite a bit of the time and will use up more power

but so far power consumption hasn't been too bad so far
I suspect I will save about 10% or so
even got a small rebate/grant from feds for the work I did to insulate the house

low-e bulbs to work with remote control / dimmable ceiling fans to fit my fixtures haven't been invented yet, but when they do I will replace my lights ASAP

interesting to note is that on a cool night I can turn on a light and it does turn up the heat a bit

house is far more temperature retentive
holds interior temp far better than previous iteration of house
much slower to change to outdoor temp - a very good thing

also, i my home is in an area classified as rural seasonal and i think delivery fees and/or min. fees are higher


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

my hydro bill for a month averages down to $35.00, when we bought the house last year we converted as many items to natural gas as possible(stove, hot water tank, dryer). The house is roughly 1300sq ft with new wiring and all the light bulbs are energy efficient.

Laterz


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## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

Bought a nice new Energy Star-rated fridge in the middle of June, and my recent Hydro bill was down from the previous one (just prior to the fridge purchase) by about $12.00. 

This weekend I'll turn down the hot water heater by a couple of degrees - I find it too hot anyway. It'll be interesting to see if this saves a buck or two.

Elsewhere... I'm pretty careful / miserly with my electricity use. And I like the house dark.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

The Doug said:


> Bought a nice new Energy Star-rated fridge in the middle of June, and my recent Hydro bill was down from the previous one (just prior to the fridge purchase) by about $12.00.


If you calculate an average of 2000$ for a new fridge, it will pay for itself in 166 months...


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

Why, mine was only $1600.00 after tax.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

i feel like a poor cousin having paid $700 for my new fridge


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i feel like a poor cousin having paid $700 for my new fridge


Or the thrifty one....


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I don't even own a fridge. Yet I still maintain my lovely figure...thank goodness for the ultra-low home energy solution of takeout. Outsource your emissions today.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Electricity cost in Canada varies a lot from province to province.
I have a house in Ontario and anoter one in Quebec. Quebec Hydro is almost half of Ontario hydro.
I went for an oil-fired hot water tank many years ago. At that time it was much cheaper to run than an electric one and the recovery time is much better.

If you really want to find out how much electricity appliances, computers etc are using, I would suggest invest $25 and buy an energy meter at Canadian Tire.
It will track actual consumption over any period of time - that way you know which electric "items" to focus on.
Canadian Tire


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Or the thrifty one....


or just cheap

i didn't see the value of a fridge costing twice as much
is my beer and wine colder?
do my vegetables stay crisper?
does my frozen meat stay more frozen?

or does the salesperson get more commission?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MS, you put wine in the fridge?


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Forgot to mention that I keep the oil burner turned off most of the time now, as I just got socked with a $440US oil bill.  

I turn it on to take a hot shower, as a cold shower is a bit too Grizzly Adams for me. The thing was churning out hot water, 24/7, even as nobody was using it. I can't believe it took me so long to see the wastefulness of the thing.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

I've often wondered why hot water isn't heated 'on demand', rather than being heated and then stored hot in an insulated tank.

Why not just have a long heater (gas or electric) on a pipe, and when you turn on the hot tap, water flows through the pipe coming out hot at the end? I saw a set up like this when I was scuba diving from a wilderness camp in northern BC (Seymour Inlet). They had propane heaters for the hot water in the cabins, but no water was heated unless you turned on the tap, at which point the water flowed through the heater being brought up to temperature on the way to the tap.

Anyone with a high school chemistry understanding of thermodynamics knows that storing water (or anything else) at significantly above ambient temperature is just a waste of energy.

Cheers.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

On demand water heaters are not new, but are quite expensive in Canada. Home Depot's website probably offers a couple models. Searching for the term, "tankless water heater" should also yield results.

The top-end of the tank-based water heaters is quite efficient (very good insulation is just a part of that) but also expensive, so I suspect that the tankless technology will only gain in popularity.

One thing to note about energy efficiency: capital efficiency and energy efficiency are often at odds with each other. Note AS's comment about 166 months. People looking to improve their home's efficiency are probably painfully aware of this.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> MS, you put wine in the fridge?


white and zinfandels do well in the fridge
also on hot/warm summer nights I put youthful reds like my favourite merlot in the fridge and then decant before serving

yummy and well received


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MissGulch said:


> Forgot to mention that I keep the oil burner turned off most of the time now, as I just got socked with a $440US oil bill.
> 
> I turn it on to take a hot shower, as a cold shower is a bit too Grizzly Adams for me. The thing was churning out hot water, 24/7, even as nobody was using it. I can't believe it took me so long to see the wastefulness of the thing.


last summer i conducted a not so scientific experiment by turning off (via electric breaker) my electric water heater

it's only me and the cat at home and I have a very small (brand new - 2005- 12 gallon) tank but it was enough for 2 days worth of showers

seemed to make a difference

haven't done it this year tho
got worried about breaking my breaker
doubt they are designed for that much on and off use


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

On demand (tankless) water heaters are the norm in Europe.
When I lived there for four years - that's what we had and it worked fine.
However, for Canada there are some restrictions because of the cold winter. To heat water fast enough for *one* shower or *one* bath you need about 100 amps at 240 volts with an electric unit.
That will bring the temperature up to about 105 F from 40 F.
Using 100 amps for one appliance on a typical modern 200 amp circuit is stretching it a bit I find. If you run an electric dryer and maybe have a roast in the oven you're getting close to the limit.
And a gas powered model, which is the other option, can of course only be used if you have either natural gas or possibly propane - but propane tends to be expensive as a fuel.
Savings compared to the traditional electric water heater are listed at 30 to 50% - wonder what the saving is compared to an oil-fired water heater.
I think with the relatively low electricity rates in Quebec, these on-demand heaters will not pay for themselves except in special circumstances.


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

Union Energy ( I think it's changed its name to Reliance) is finally renting natural gas-fired, tankless hot water systems. They haven't come out to this part of the province, yet, but I'm on a waiting list. It's estimated to cost approx. 1/3 more to rent, but cuts gas consumption in half. Since my tank is in an unheated basement, I think I'll come out ahead. Probably won't be here until early next year, though.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

krs said:


> On demand (tankless) water heaters are the norm in Europe.
> When I lived there for four years - that's what we had and it worked fine.
> However, for Canada there are some restrictions because of the cold winter. To heat water fast enough for *one* shower or *one* bath you need about 100 amps at 240 volts with an electric unit.
> That will bring the temperature up to about 105 F from 40 F.
> ...


a couple of the Bosh tankless water heaters will heat enough water for 2 outlets but they are on the expensive side, I looked around and did the math for a tankless solution and still couldn't beat the traditional water heater hopefully whenever my natural gas tank lets go the tankless should be allot cheaper. If you rent in Ontario there is a solution coming as Enbridge is testing tankless water heaters now and they should be renting them soon at least according to a customer of mine that works as a Enbridge installer.

Laterz


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

It's not really clear to me how much energy one saves with a tankless electric.
A US manufacturer states 30 to 50%, but I assume that is vs a traditional electric heater - I wonder how tankless electric ones measure up against traditional oil fired ones.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

My electric bill just came, and I received a notice that my bill is being cut to $54. BWAHAHAHAH! Shutting off the oil burner must have helped, as well as unplugging the computers at night.

I'm not quite off the grid here, but it's kind of a fun challenge seeing how low I can get the power bill. 

Edited to add:
Began at $104US
May cut to $95
August cut to $80
September cut to $54

BWAHAHAHAHA!


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Great work! Unless the power price is changing in the background, that is a huge accomplishment. If you have fixed charges on your power bill, that means that you likely cut consumption by more than 50%.

One thing to keep in mind is that if you have a furnace (oil?) your winter bills may be higher due to the furnace fan. So, if that is case, don't beat yourself up over your December bill.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Currently I'm paying:
Electricity: about $ 66/month ($66.87 for SE07)
Natural Gas: (home heating, water heater) $35/month on an equalized payment plan.
Water: $9/month ($8.94 for SE07)

Because of the way our utilities are calculated, I also pay for sewer ($2.31), flood insurance ($3.06), and infrastructure levies on sewer ($8.43), as well as a service charge per day for electricity (55.35 cents/day) water ( 16.77 cents/day) and sewer (also 16.77 cents/day). They add up to another $16/month.

Total (every little thing, taxes, etc) is $126.75 for Water, Sewer, Electricity and Natural Gas for September 07.

For comparison to other utilities:
Electricity: 445 KWh
Natural Gas: 27.2 cubic meters
Water: 201.3 cubic feet
Sewer: it's assumed to be the same as water used; ie 201.3 cubic feet for SE07.

201.3 cubic feet (that's what we're billed for for some reason) = 5700 liters.


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## ericlewis91 (Jul 12, 2007)

*parents are*

my parents are paying


Electricity: about $ 234/month
Natural Gas:$55/month
Water: $61/month


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

just got my latest bill in the mail from Hydro One (or Hydro Zero as we affectionately call them)

July 25 thru Aug 29, Residential High Density

electricity 371 kWh (341 x 1.092 adjusted) @ 5.3 cents = $19.66
delivery = $31.37
regulatory charges = $2.55
debt retirement = $2.38
GST = $3.36

======================

TOTAL = $59.32


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Opinions wanted:

The local utility, Keyspan, sent me an offer today for a new natural gas home heating system. According to their deal, I will get $1,200 off the price of the burner, plus 100 feet of service line free. 

At the moment, I am using an oil burner that's at least 20 years old. They promise the new equipment saves 30% in utility costs, burns cleaner, yada-yada. Do you think it's worth getting this, or perhaps a talkless burner that uses electricity? I recall 'SPEC says he uses this style. 

Problem is, oil, natural gas - both run on dino juice. I would like most of all to have a solar heating system, but that's out of my range. The net cost of the natural gas furnace according to the deal is $899US before taxes.

Edited to add: my oil delivery bill of last month was $465, which was quite ghastly. We hadn't had a delivery since April, but even so. I'm trying to make the oil last through next year.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Do you think it's worth getting this, or perhaps a talkless burner that uses electricity? I recall 'SPEC says he uses this style.


'SPEC doesn't use this system.
'SPEC had a new electric tank based water heater installed in 2005

'SPEC doesn't want any "dino juice" appliances in his home
one utility bill (electricity) is enough
I have my own well for water and my own septic system so electricity is my only util. bill

I don't trust the dino juice sellers to not obscenely raise their prices as the last 5 years have shown

everyone uses electricity and electricity was/is regulated in Ontario
when electricity prices go up, everyone complains since everyone uses electricity (except those off the grid)

when natural gas prices go up, I don't complain

the only dino juice I use is that for my car except the odd edible oil product


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> They promise the new equipment saves 30% in utility costs, burns cleaner, yada-yada


tell 'em to put it in writing


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> The local utility, Keyspan, sent me an offer today for a new natural gas home heating system. According to their deal, I will get $1,200 off the price of the burner, plus 100 feet of service line free.
> 
> At the moment, I am using an oil burner that's at least 20 years old. They promise the new equipment saves 30% in utility costs, burns cleaner, yada-yada. Do you think it's worth getting this, or perhaps a talkless burner that uses electricity? I recall 'SPEC says he uses this style.
> 
> ...


Natural gas is usually quite a bit cheaper than heating oil. If you're talking about space heating then go for it and try for a high-efficiency furnace (90%+). If it is just for water heating then be careful because natural gas delivery will very likely have fixed costs (~$20 per month) that can more than offset the savings from just water heating.

As for dino-juice, don't worry. 80%+ efficient natural gas use is far more efficient than the marginal power generation source -- often <50% efficient natural gas. 

Be careful about long-term price plans. Natural gas utilities are usually regulated to get no/minimal profit from the commodity so, if you can handle the price volatility, it usually ends up being cheaper than fixed price contracts, just like a mortgage.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Beej said:


> Natural gas is usually quite a bit cheaper than heating oil. If you're talking about space heating then go for it and try for a high-efficiency furnace (90%+). If it is just for water heating then be careful because natural gas delivery will very likely have fixed costs (~$20 per month) that can more than offset the savings from just water heating.
> 
> As for dino-juice, don't worry. 80%+ efficient natural gas use is far more efficient than the marginal power generation source -- often <50% efficient natural gas.
> 
> Be careful about long-term price plans. Natural gas utilities are usually regulated to get no/minimal profit from the commodity so, if you can handle the price volatility, it usually ends up being cheaper than fixed price contracts, just like a mortgage.


I want to be sure I understand your points Are you saying that the gas would be cheaper than an electricity-powered heating system? The burner would be a whole house heating system, not a space heater. 

The gas would come from the utility, so hopefully it would be low or no profit as you suggest. The oil I buy now is from a private home heating company that no doubt gets their cut. 

Good on ya, 'SPEC.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I thought that you were using oil heating, not electric. Either way, the gas commodity is much cheaper than electricity but, as I mentioned, there are fixed monthly costs. By space heating I mean the air temperature. By whole house do you mean air and water? If so then the fixed monthly costs could be well worth it. 

If you could specify your state I could get a better idea. Warm states require minimal space heating making the extra fixed monthly costs of gas onerous. Sort of like paying $30 bucks a month for a long-distance phone deal that you only use for 2 minutes per month.

Sidenote 1 -- if you love to cook: I have been told that gas stoves make a big difference. Personally, I do not see how they affect the pizza delivery time, but others seem to care. 

Sidenote 2: oil is generally cheaper than electricity and natural gas is generally cheaper than oil (btw, heating oil is pretty much diesel -- distillate is the common term). There are exceptions, but that's the normal pricing order for the commodities.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

I'm gonna take this one atta time.



Beej said:


> I thought that you were using oil heating, not electric.


I am. My thought was to perhaps buy an electric heating system in lieu of the oil.



> By whole house do you mean air and water? If so then the fixed monthly costs could be well worth it.


Yes, it would be air and water. The current system heats hot water that gets piped throughout the house, heating the air. 


> If you could specify your state I could get a better idea.


NY (Ontario south)  


> Sidenote 1 -- if you love to cook: I have been told that gas stoves make a big difference. Personally, I do not see how they affect the pizza delivery time, but others seem to care.


I just bought a new range, an electric ceramic cooktop. No pizza I can make can equal the NY pizza I can buy. The house has never received gas. The deal I mentioned will bring the gas line to the house. 


> Sidenote 2: oil is generally cheaper than electricity and natural gas is generally cheaper than oil (btw, heating oil is pretty much diesel -- distillate is the common term). There are exceptions, but that's the normal pricing order for the commodities.


Then you feel the savings, along with the inducements, make it a good deal. I am concerned with the ecology, in addition to the costs, and they portray it as an environmentally sound purchase.

My parents dealt with the oil burner company for more than 30 years. It will be a little sad, in effect, "firing" the burner people.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Moving from oil to gas is environmentally sound and it beats electricity too. Ask someone about the efficiency, though. I do not know much about your heating system technology (I'm accustomed to forced air furnaces). If you would like, I can look up the technology later this week. PM to remind me and to detail what you know about your system if you would like.

If the gas company is covering the full hookup charge and you are only left to pay for a portion of the boiler then my advice is to go for it. Keep in mind that this deal is not likely to be a one time thing and that you may want to try to squeeze another year or two of life out of your oil equipment. At 20 years, I think that you've got a good deal but I am not familiar with your finances. Also, does the total cost include carting away the old junk and completing all the necessary work to install the new junk? 

However, rest assured that when you switch you are making a positive environmental choice and very likely the right price choice. No guarantees on price because prices shift around a lot, but it is a bet with very good financial odds that most consumers have chosen (in cold markets) when given the option.

Natural gas only costs more than oil on occasion and, at that, the problems are far more likely north east of NY. If the uncertainty bothers you, then consider how certain you are about heating oil prices. 

And, unless your heating technology is inherently inefficient (below 60%), do not switch to electric. This is with good reason: oil and natural gas are used to generate electricity at a ratio of about two or three units of oil/gas to produce one unit of electricity.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Thanks, Beej. You gave very good answers. I have until 12/31 to take advantage of this deal, so I'm going to let it ride for a couple of months. I want use the overpriced oil I bought in the interim. 

The cost of the new burner is only twice the cost of a single oil delivery, so you're probably right about the savings. The deal seems to include the entire setup - hookup and carting away the junk.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I suggest that you not switch mid-winter (July in Canada, maybe November in NY  ). I'm not sure about the price implications of getting a partial oil delivery to finish the winter off but, personally, I would worry about coordinating removing old equipment, installing pipe, hooking up new equipment and getting things running during a cold snap. This can involve multiple contractors, regulations and forms and, therefore, can be royally eff'd up. 

Have friends with plug-in electric heaters available for loan just in case something goes wrong should you choose to go for a mid-winter switch.

Meanwhile, enjoy this fun calculator:
http://www.heritagegas.com/converting/Home/ccalc.asp


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

I really enjoy the peace and quiet of the electric baseboard radiant heat.

Perhaps you should look into a wood stove as a way to defer petrol based products.

Wood is carbon friendly as the carbon dioxide released by burning wood is offset by the carbon dioxide absorbed and converted into oxygen during the life of the tree

I am lucky to live on a forested lot and therefore grow my own fuel.

I use electric baseboard heating (240 volt, not the plug in type) as my main source of heat and hope to re-install the wood stove that I had last year.

I use(d) it mainly as a backup heat source and supplemental heat source.

The wood stove is also very quiet and produces a wonderful heat.

You could look into the very modern pellet stoves that are very efficient using sawdust compressed pellets.

Again, very carbon friendly and the stoves have a hopper you fill up with pellets and the stove is self feeding.

I have a business associates in Quebec that rave about their pellet stoves.

As my father always said. Think about it 3 times and do it once.

The insulation/venting improvements will pay dividends when it comes to heating bills this winter.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> As my father always said. Think about it 3 times and do it once.


A very wise saying. Fortunately, I was able to let the Beej do some of my thinking for me.  

The house already has a fireplace that isn't used, and a lot of heat probably goes up the chimney. There's no room for a freestanding stove, as it's a postwar house in the 'burbs. 

I don't have a forest outside. My bucolic setting has a commuter bus at the corner, and the LIRR 8 blocks away.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MissGulch said:


> A very wise saying. Fortunately, I was able to let the Beej do some of my thinking for me. *1.*
> 
> The house already has a fireplace that isn't used, and a lot of heat probably goes up the chimney. *2.* There's no room for a freestanding stove, as it's a postwar house in the 'burbs.
> 
> I don't have a forest outside. My bucolic setting has a commuter bus at the corner, and the LIRR 8 blocks away.


1. better think about it 5 times then  

2. have a professional chimney company evaluate your fireplace/chimney - might be surprising to find out you have a nice heat source already in your house

purchasing wood isn't that expensive if you shop around and just think of the picture postcard moments as you partake of the nog of your choice during those cold winter nights not to mention making use of the bear skin run in front of a roaring fire :heybaby:


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

I read the fine print on the ad that I talked about before, you know, the gas burner installation package. There's a stipulation that the customer install the heating equipment, so it looks like it will cost much more than stated. 

Think three times, act once (repeat to self).


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MissGulch said:


> May I interrupt this twaddle with something on topic?
> 
> I read the fine print on the ad that I talked about before, you know, the gas burner installation package. There's a stipulation that the customer install the heating equipment, so it looks like it will cost much more than stated.
> 
> Think three times, act once (repeat to self).


I once again suggest you hire a professional to find out if your fireplace can be used for heating purposes.

Oh and in this specific case it would be "Think 5 times and act once."



Here is a link on fireplace inserts, natural gas and wood burning

turn that mantle into a cost effective heat source for your home
not just for propping up photos anymore


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

As far as heating costs are concerned. The actual costs depend on the jurisdiction you live in, the way pricing is set up and one's particular situation and requirements.
Natural Gas - Oil - Electricity is not necessarily the order from low to high.
Also, some people are nervous about Natural gas since it can explode, Oil requires on site storage which the other two don't, and Electricity lets you control the heat individually by room saving eating costs that way.
In Quebec, Electricity is relatively inexpensive compared to other jurisdictions.

Using a fireplace is a non-starter IMHO. Unless it's designed with heatilators, a fireplace sucks more warm air out of the house than it delivers.
Great in an emergency though - when we had the ice storm in Quebec several years ago and there was no electricity at all for weeks, natural gas or oil or electricity wouldn't work at all (they all depend on electricity in the end), and we used the fireplace to try to heat the house so the pipes wouldn't freeze.
Well, the best the fire place could do in a two-story attached house, was to keep the temperature just barely above freezing, 34 Fahrenheit.
certainly not a viable option for a normal city house, not to mention the mess and the work hauling wood to keep it going.
Best way to keep the heating cost down is to make sure you have lots of insulation - I have added R-40 to the ceiling, use a setback thermostat and generally keep the temperature on the low side.


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## Aardvark (Sep 26, 2007)

*Electricity bills*

Very high...... was it that hot?!~ Got air but was it That HOT?! 
Hunting down old fridges and mostly empty freezers now...... Oops. BUT,
WAS it THAT hot to have 550.00 two mth bill for hydro when we use gas for hot water and cooking?!
I can see that all inclusive utiilities for renters being a thing of the past reall soon! My hydro has never been this much.... can a couple old fridges running in air conditioned home ( same ones as last few years) and a freezer found almost empty be the culprit or is there some tampering with the meters?! 

Confused Tune


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Easy enough to check the meter, just read it at regular intervals - especially when you think all the appliances that use electricity are off - and see how much electricity is being used.
Central air - if that's what you have - takes an obscene amount of power. When I run mine, the hudro meter spins so fast that one can hardly see the black section. I didn't use Central Air it this year at all because of the amount of power it uses.
Fans and an A/C in the bedroom did the job.
As to tampering with the hydro meter - I can see that tampering would slow it down - don't think tampering would speed it up no matter what you do.
For $20 or so you can buy an energy meter at Canadian Tire. It just plugs into the wall and you plug the appliance you want to check into the meter.
Great to get the true hydro consumption of many things that are only running part time like your fridge, freezer etc.


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## Aardvark (Sep 26, 2007)

*central air sucker or meter raider*

Yup, KRS is right...... central air sucks juice but it is better than the three window shakers we did have here! However, unless the mostly emply freezer I just unplugged and the old fridge I am about to unplug were real bad ....... we must have had the hottest summer in a few years?!


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## Aardvark (Sep 26, 2007)

*central air sucker or meter raider*

Yup, KRS is right...... central air sucks juice but it is better than the three window shakers we did have here! However, unless the mostly emply freezer I just unplugged and the old fridge I am about to unplug were real bad ....... we must have had the hottest summer in a few years?!

Maybe they are thinning out out electricity with "carrier volts" ..... kind of like the gas company uses "carrier gas " to thin out our natural gas so we think we are getting so many cubic feet of natural gas when in fact we are getting less. 

What can you do?! Move to Quebec? I think I am going to tunnel and tap into the neighbours power, he he.

" FREEDOM MEANS RESPONSIBILITY...... MOST MEN ARE AFRAID OF IT" I forget who said it but..........


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Aardvark said:


> Yup, KRS is right...... central air sucks juice but it is better than the three window shakers we did have here! However, unless the mostly emply freezer I just unplugged and the old fridge I am about to unplug were real bad ....... we must have had the hottest summer in a few years?!
> 
> Maybe they are thinning out out electricity with "carrier volts" ..... kind of like the gas company uses "carrier gas " to thin out our natural gas so we think we are getting so many cubic feet of natural gas when in fact we are getting less.
> 
> ...





> From scanning over Timothy J. Gorringe’s book Karl Barth: Hegemony, I came across this quote on freedom from a talk Barth gave in 1945:
> 
> “Freedom means responsibility, not running away from but taking responsibility oneself, responsibility of the spirit, of the heart, of thinking, of the conscience, of each individual and of the whole people…freedom is found where each individual makes themselves responsible for the leadership of the whole. It is there where the responsibility of each individual is for the benefit of the leadership, maintenance, and shape of the whole.”


A Bit on Freedom: Meandering Thoughts Late at Night « Baggy Overalls



> Freedom means responsibility; that is the reason why most people are afraid of it.
> George Bernhard Shaw


tememento.de :: View topic - Freedom means responsibility


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Aardvark said:


> Yup, KRS is right...... central air sucks juice but it is better than the three window shakers we did have here!


Are you sure?
I don't know what units you have, but here is a Central Air unit that draws 36 amps at 230 volts - the last portable I just bought only draws 8 amps at 115 volts.
The portable only cools a very large bedroom vs the whole house for the central Air unit, but power-wise, the Central Air uses 8280 watts compared to 920 watts for the portable, almost ten times as much.
And if you haven't recharged the refrigerant for a few years on the central Air, your effiviency and cooling power could be less than it should be.

You can look up the Cooling Degree Days for the city where you live and compare that to previous years - that will give you an idea how hot the summer was compared to the other years.


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