# Dead pixel = no exchange?



## tacsniper (Aug 27, 2007)

So I just bought a 13" MBP last night, went home loaded Safari and noticed a dead pixel on the screen so I brought it into the Apple store today for an exchange. I was told at the Genius Bar that they normally don't exchange/repair if its one deal pixel and that I will be exercising my 14 days return/exchange policy and I shouldn't expect to get the same thing if dead pixels appear after 14 days. :yikes:

I was kinda surprise by that comment because after spending $1,300 I believe I should receive a flawless computer! I expect an exchange no questions ask (at least for today) since obviously it is a manufacturer defect. I don't know you but after spending $1,300+ on a laptop knowing there is a defect I am sure it will be in your mind as long as you own the laptop if they are not willing to exchange/repair it.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

It's pretty common not to replace a screen with one or even a couple of non-clustered dead pixels...


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## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

It's an old scam with LCDs - dead pixels mean nothing unless you have more than 14 of them, or if you can show that the dead pixel will somehow impede scientific use of your machine. In a way, that's why it is better to buy a used machine - simply because you can check things out. Hopefully the dead pixel isn't in some important location on the screen.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

So, did you exchange it?

I would have.

Their tolerance of dead pixels is supposed to be much lower for laptops than stand-alone monitors. I'd ask again.



tacsniper said:


> So I just bought a 13" MBP last night, went home loaded Safari and noticed a dead pixel on the screen so I brought it into the Apple store today for an exchange. I was told at the Genius Bar that they normally don't exchange/repair if its one deal pixel and that I will be exercising my 14 days return/exchange policy and I shouldn't expect to get the same thing if dead pixels appear after 14 days. :yikes:
> 
> I was kinda surprise by that comment because after spending $1,300 I believe I should receive a flawless computer! I expect an exchange no questions ask (at least for today) since obviously it is a manufacturer defect. I don't know you but after spending $1,300+ on a laptop knowing there is a defect I am sure it will be in your mind as long as you own the laptop if they are not willing to exchange/repair it.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

I remember reading somewhere that applecares repair policy for displays is 5 dead pixels clustered within an inch.


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## tacsniper (Aug 27, 2007)

Ya I got it exchanged but I have not inspect the new one yet as I am at work right now. I hope nothing is wrong with it.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

All manufacturers have a "Pixel Anomaly" policy of some sort. The story is, if the manufacturers demanded 100% perfect LCD's for their computers, the price of LCD's would be exorbitantly higher. 

Here is Dell's Pixel policy. 

Here is Apple's, but they are a little more vague about the amount of pixels. Apple doesn't have a policy per se, but here's a bit of advice.... "The squeaky wheel gets the greece"  Ultimately, its Apple's call.


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

One more reason for buying EVERYTHING at BestBuy..... :lmao::lmao: Just take it back and get a new one.



On that note, to end this once and for all.

Is it legal for a retail computer store in Canada to sell a computer without the operating system discs or someway of reloading via a restore partition or cd creation routine? 

Be it Mac or PC. 

Anyone know for sure?


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

absolutetotalgeek said:


> One more reason for buying EVERYTHING at BestBuy..... :lmao::lmao: Just take it back and get a new one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes it's legal... OEM licensing allows for this.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

tacsniper said:


> So I just bought a 13" MBP last night, went home loaded Safari and noticed a dead pixel on the screen so I brought it into the Apple store today for an exchange.


Is the pixel actually "dead" (no colour) or "stuck" (a colour)? "Stuck" pixels can generally be fixed.



> I was kinda surprise by that comment because after spending $1,300 I believe I should receive a flawless computer!


A flawless SCREEN I could go along with -- a flawless COMPUTER?? You're smoking the crack. 

No mass-manufactured product is flawless. None. Not your car, not your toaster, not your Apple. That sometimes the flaws in a given product are invisible or irrelevant to your use doesn't mean it is free of them.

Please note that I am NOT saying you should live with the dead pixel (if it's actually dead).


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

absolutetotalgeek said:


> One more reason for buying EVERYTHING at BestBuy..... :lmao::lmao: Just take it back and get a new one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I though you do not support any one but applestore - now you support best buy?

BTW - return/exchange policy is based on individual stores and management.. so ask before purchasing.. 1 dead pixel does not count for an automatic return/exchange ( it depends on the manufacturer ) but if you are buying from an independent - like a dealer.. we will service it regardless to keep clients happy - and if you are nice to us.


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## Trevor... (Feb 21, 2003)

Believe it or not Future Shop has a dead bug in the screen replacement policy,


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

what does dead bug mean?


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## Brianl (Apr 6, 2008)

What is your return policy?

Check out Best Buys Return Policy. States "not happy for any reason"


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

absolutetotalgeek said:


> Is it legal for a retail computer store in Canada to sell a computer without the operating system discs or someway of reloading via a restore partition or cd creation routine? -


If the machine is being sold as pre-owned, they can sell it with or without anything they desire, power cord included, never mind system discs. (As long as what is and isn't included is explained to the customer prior to purchase.)


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Actually, most bargain-basement PCs *don't* come with full restore or OS discs. That's one of the reasons they're bargain-basement, and it's a right PITA when the inevitable occurs.


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## Darien Red Sox (Oct 24, 2006)

absolutetotalgeek said:


> One more reason for buying EVERYTHING at BestBuy..... :lmao::lmao: Just take it back and get a new one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not in the US, every time I have needed to return something they have found some way to refuse it saying "talk to the manufacture, it is there problem not ours" despite the fact the sails person who sold it to me told me I could return it no problem. They also have a habit of trying to sell you stuff you don't need or want and if they don't carry it it is not made, or that you don't want it. I went in looking for a universal power adapter for a portable DVD player and the guy kept on showing me the portable DVD players and telling me that I relay needed a new player and that my DVD player was toast (this was the Geek Squad guy by the way), I say no and walk out being able to tell that he was relay mad, and go to a dollar store next door and get a working adapter for $5 and the ting works fine. Another time my grandfather went in looking for a small affordable TV to replace a dead one in there kitchen and the guys kept on trying to talk him into buying a big flat screen TV until he ended up walking out. I will never shop at Best Buy again.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

So i just received a 15" Unibody MBP as a gift.... and unfortunately it has 1 dead pixel in the top left corner ....sigh...

I don't have the receipt but the serial # shows it was bought June 6th. I wonder if the apple store will give me grief if i try to have it replaced. Also , seeing as it was purchased a couple of days before the new macbook pros were announced i wonder if i can pay a restocking fee and get a new model...


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

1 dead pixel isn't that bad , every store and every brand has a policy against taking back dead pixel laptops , this played out in the 80's or 90's when LCD's came out in laptops and people started suing , some law was passed to allow a manufacturer to have up to 10 or so pixels.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

shredder said:


> 1 dead pixel isn't that bad , every store and every brand has a policy against taking back dead pixel laptops , this played out in the 80's or 90's when LCD's came out in laptops and people started suing , some law was passed to allow a manufacturer to have up to 10 or so pixels.


No such law was passed, or would have been, or would be passed.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Dead pixels don't bother me as much as stuck pixels... having a pixel always red or green just blaring itself in my line of sight.... man that drives me crazy.

LCDs have been around long enough that the manufacturers should have perfected the way they make them, or come up with a way to repair faulty pixels right there on the assembly line. The fact that we still have to put up with this BS is inexcusable.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

i-rui said:


> I remember reading somewhere that applecares repair policy for displays is 5 dead pixels clustered within an inch.


I was told 4 dead/stuck or grey pixels in an area is enough for a repair. What you need to do is get a case # and discuss with customer relations if you are not satisfied even if beyond the 14 days.

It occurred to me a few years ago (after 1 or so years), and they said they could not do anything. It was a bright red stuck pixel off centre in the middle!

What I reminded them is that I use my computer in many meetings with business people (which I do), going over graphics, etc. I'd hate to have to point out the stuck pixel on my Apple to ever person that sees my laptop. They replaced it after hearing that... and said it was "an acceptation this time".

You could also sit out in front of the Apple Store and show people, and warn them not to buy Apple because of their support policy / quality. But that may bring over the Mall Cops to have you removed like in the movie !


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

zlinger said:


> You could also sit out in front of the Apple Store and show people, and warn them not to buy Apple because of their support policy / quality. But that may bring over the Mall Cops to have you removed like in the movie !


bad advise.. all display manufactures have the same policy... actually that is the policy force on to apple from them, so instead of protesting in front of apple fly to China and protest in front of LG/Samsung/Panasonic etc

I bought a Pioneer plasma once, it had 3 dead pixels.. likely i bought on my visa platinum...called and claimed it.. but visa stepped in and got Pioneer to swap it out, because i am sure visa did not want that bill


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Ontario also has legislation that will let you make returns unfettered for 10 days, so if you are inside that 10 day period, I don't think that Apple's little "oh, that will deduct from your 14 day period" bunk would stand. If they are going to hassle you, just dump the machine, get your cash - they can't restrict you if you are in Ontario - then go to a decent place to buy an Apple.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

EvanPitts said:


> Ontario also has legislation that will let you make returns unfettered for 10 days, so if you are inside that 10 day period, I don't think that Apple's little "oh, that will deduct from your 14 day period" bunk would stand. If they are going to hassle you, just dump the machine, get your cash - they can't restrict you if you are in Ontario - then go to a decent place to buy an Apple.


Your Consumer Protection Rights - Government of Ontario (Canada)

That 10 day period applies to purchases made in your home, of services, contracts or goods for more than $50.

No such protection applies to items bought in stores--at all. Many, many items you buy--most items you buy--are final sale unless the store has a different policy. In the case of Apple, as anywhere else, you can buy according to their policies, or shop elsewhere.

You might want to look this stuff up before posting.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

HowEver said:


> No such law was passed, or would have been, or would be passed.


ok not a law , a standard for the lcd panels, same effect as the law because this is what the judge would refer to if you had an argument in court against dell or someone who sold you dead pix. ISO 3000 something


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

shredder said:


> ok not a law , a standard for the lcd panels, same effect as the law because this is what the judge would refer to if you had an argument in court against dell or someone who sold you dead pix. ISO 3000 something


For the purposes of buying stuff from stores, this does not, in fact, exist.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> Ontario also has legislation that will let you make returns unfettered for 10 days, so if you are inside that 10 day period, I don't think that Apple's little "oh, that will deduct from your 14 day period" bunk would stand. If they are going to hassle you, just dump the machine, get your cash - they can't restrict you if you are in Ontario - then go to a decent place to buy an Apple.


This is the funniest horse fecal matter i ever read. 

cool off period only applies to people who purchase new homes and condos and door to door sales men...

Each retail store has its own policy - read the sign post on the wall or at the register, or just ask before purchasing.. 

My wife and i shop at safety super store, for kids stuff, even though they have a no return only exchange if defective policy for 14 days - they make you sign the contract too not to mention you do not get your money back - only in store credit.. - yes annoying but they are in the right to do those rules..

each retailer is different.. so never assume anything - ask before buying any where.

I bought a car once - it was so problematic in the first week i returned it and got my money back  ( even though i phoned the OMVIC and manufacturer they both said good luck you own it. - but i had some good conversation skills when i was younger and the owner agreed with me  )


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

shredder said:


> ok not a law , a standard for the lcd panels, same effect as the law because this is what the judge would refer to if you had an argument in court against dell or someone who sold you dead pix. ISO 3000 something





HowEver said:


> For the purposes of buying stuff from stores, this does not, in fact, exist.


Umm... yes it does:
ISO 9241-307:2008 - Ergonomics of human-system interaction -- Part 307: Analysis and compliance test methods for electronic visual displays

While this is a guideline standard, not a law, if you were to take it to court, shredder is correct, this is the document the court would refer to when making their decision.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

G-Mo said:


> Umm... yes it does:
> ISO 9241-307:2008 - Ergonomics of human-system interaction -- Part 307: Analysis and compliance test methods for electronic visual displays
> 
> While this is a guideline standard, not a law, if you were to take it to court, shredder is correct, this is the document the court would refer to when making their decision.


Which begs the questions: has anyone taken a company to court for one or more dead pixels? Have they won? Would they ever? Did it cost them anything to sue? Is it easier to buy somewhere with a better return policy?


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

HowEver said:


> Which begs the questions: has anyone taken a company to court for one or more dead pixels? Have they won? Would they ever? Did it cost them anything to sue? Is it easier to buy somewhere with a better return policy?


 
the short answer is no , that is what I mentioned above , you can't take them to court since that ISO standard is what sets the spec of an LCD. Basically it says that an LCD panel is not a perfect thing and it could have a certain amount of dead pixels. As ehmax mentioned if the market demanded 100% flawless LCD panels the price would be considerably higher as the MFCT would have to destroy a lot of them.

of course this would only apply to a company or a mfct because person to person deals are already considered as is all sales final unless preceded by a contract. So unless someone draws you a contract that says you will get a LCD with 0 dead pix you can't do a thing , person or company.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

HowEver said:


> No such protection applies to items bought in stores--at all. Many, many items you buy--most items you buy--are final sale unless the store has a different policy. In the case of Apple, as anywhere else, you can buy according to their policies, or shop elsewhere.


Even though the law states that this is up to store policy - the law also states that it is the responsibility of the business to fully disclose such policies, and unless such pixel damage was fully disclosed to the consumer at the time of purchase, then the consumer can seek redress, which under Common Law, is to reset to the status before the contract was entered. Thus, if the store did not explicitly state that the machine had bad pixels, or has some clearly indicated policy that is related to and understood by the consumer - then they are open to having to pay out the damages of a contract that they didn't follow through on.

And because it is applied by Common Law, the store can't just offer $10 or something - the status must be reset to the state prior to the contract, which would indicate a full refund. The 10 day period that is written explicitly into newer laws stems from the old Common Law precident of allowing 10 business days for the consumer to make a written application to the other contracting party, which in turn is given 15 days to follow through with a solution.

It is silly to say that people have to put up with dead pixels because "it would make LCDs too expensive". All that "dead pixels" mean is that unscrupulous manufacturers are releasing defective good that are sold without the defect being revealed, and thus, there is already a remedy under Common Law.

Dead pixels are a defect - shoddy goods in other words, so unless the system was sold explicitly "As Is", or is less than $50 - I don't think the store really has a leg to stand on. If they want to keep the customer, they will swap the machine for a working system, because a lost customer is a customer and a pack of friends that will not return to purchase that junk again.

As for the dead pixel defect - I think if it is in the extremes of the screen, it is less of a problem - but if it is in the working part of the screen - then the consumer really has a case, especially if the store does not have a sign posted that clearly indicates that they are selling defective LCD screens, and if the store just handed a sealed box over without giving the consumer time to inspect the goods - it makes for an even stronger case.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> As for the dead pixel defect - I think if it is in the extremes of the screen, it is less of a problem - but if it is in the working part of the screen - then the consumer really has a case, especially if the store does not have a sign posted that clearly indicates that they are selling defective LCD screens, and if the store just handed a sealed box over without giving the consumer time to inspect the goods - it makes for an even stronger case.


There is an ISO (international standard) in respect to LCD "dead pixels", therefore, as long as the product is within the guidelines of the standard, there is no need to post or indicate that the item has a "defective" LCD screen (as, in accordance to the standard, the screen is not classified as "defective").


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

shredder said:


> As ehmax mentioned if the market demanded 100% flawless LCD panels the price would be considerably higher as the MFCT would have to destroy a lot of them.


By the same token then, a processor manufacturer would entitled to sell defective processors that may not even work, or that if you buy a CD from WalMart and find it is scratched through and won't play, or skips tracks, or if you buy a car that is missing a cylinder and won't run, because we can not expect 100% flawless product.

If LCDs were so bad that they were riddled with flaws and dead pixels, then people wouldn't have stopped buying CRTs. The fact is, very few LCD panels are defective, so scrapping those panels that are defective becomes a small part of the cost of doing business. Besides, we are not talking some cheap discount brand piece of crud that is like $200 - we are talking about a new Mac which comes with a premium price tag. When one is paying double or triple the price of a lame, cheapo brand - one expects a high degree of fit and finish, and one expects the machine to run as advertised. If it cost an extra $2 to make sure every LCD is usable - that is chump change compared to cranking out unusable crud that will end up in a landfill in a few months.



> So unless someone draws you a contract that says you will get a LCD with 0 dead pix you can't do a thing , person or company.


No so, one has the expectation as a consumer to buy a fully working machine - not a machine that is riddled with manufacturing defects that make it unusable for all intended applications. If the store does not have such a policy clearly posted, or has not made the policy clear in the verbal agreement to purchase, and has not allowed the consumer to inspect the product first - then they have nothing to stand on, and the law will insist upon reverting the status to the state prior to the contract.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> Dead pixels are a defect - shoddy goods in other words, so unless the system was sold explicitly "As Is", or is less than $50



actually it isn't a defect as far as the standard goes . that is why the standard exists to tell the difference between what is a defect and what isn't ,and the ISO 3xx standard makes it clear that up to a certain amount dead pixels are not a defect.

If the standard didn't exists the mfct would include a piece of paper to cover its back , it is hard to not have manufacturing defects when making anything with 1,000,000 sections. the bottom line is the mfct can sell whatever they want


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> By the same token then, a processor manufacturer would entitled to sell defective processors that may not even work, or that if you buy a CD from WalMart and find it is scratched through and won't play, or skips tracks, or if you buy a car that is missing a cylinder and won't run, because we can not expect 100% flawless product.



No entirely different thing , that too has its own standard , the ISO for making discs and cpu chips is not the same as LCD panels. I hear what you're saying but this is different , making LCD's has never been a perfect thing , and don't think of it as $2 , the maker likes to markup 10x-50x to put its brand on something so the $2 the mfct charges the laptop maker could mean $100 to the consumer.


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## Polygon (Feb 6, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> By the same token then, a processor manufacturer would entitled to sell defective processors that may not even work, or that if you buy a CD from WalMart and find it is scratched through and won't play, or skips tracks, or if you buy a car that is missing a cylinder and won't run, because we can not expect 100% flawless product.


Shredder is correct; different standards apply to different products, for good reason. A 1440x900 LCD panel has 3888000 subpixels, so a faulty pixel still means that at least 3887997 are functional. A faulty processor on the other hand will bring down the whole system.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

Imagine getting a music CD and a few of the notes are missing.


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## Polygon (Feb 6, 2009)

_Shine on you Crazy Diamond_ would be noticeably less epic. XX)


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

shredder said:


> ... and the *ISO 3xx* standard makes it clear that up to a certain amount dead pixels are not a defect.


It's ISO 9241-307.


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## Darien Red Sox (Oct 24, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> This is the funniest horse fecal matter i ever read.
> 
> cool off period only applies to people who purchase new homes and condos and door to door sales men...
> 
> ...


Check on the internet to see if there is a length of time which the store must honor returns. Some Providences states have a law like this but the stores but it is uasley not required that stores inform people of this law meaning that only people that know there stuff can take advantage of this. Threatening to report someone to consumer protection works most of the time unless the place of business has a long enough list of complaints filed that one more compliant won't hurt them any more.
Also just saying the word lawsuit will get you what you want most of the time.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

shredder said:


> No entirely different thing , that too has its own standard , the ISO for making discs and cpu chips is not the same as LCD panels. I hear what you're saying but this is different , making LCD's has never been a perfect thing , and don't think of it as $2 , the maker likes to markup 10x-50x to put its brand on something so the $2 the mfct charges the laptop maker could mean $100 to the consumer.


ISO standards are not the law, they are standards that industries can choose to follow at their pleasure.

In our system of Common Law, consumers are entitled to receive what they had contracted and paid for. There are exceptions: of the product was sold "As Is" or is less than $50, or if the store has a clearly stated and specific sign or specifically stated during the negotiation that dead pixels or other defects are not covered by any return or repair policy. Of course, As Is machines are generally not in a sealed box, and hence, can entirely be tried out prior to purchase.

As this is a new machine in a sealed box, and the customer had no chance of checking out the system in store, a judge would not accept the store's explaination of "oh, the ISO says that LCDs have dead pixels and defects so we won't replace it", because the onus is on the store to provide the product as contracted and as advertised.

Added to this is the fact that Apple does have a 14 day try out period - the customer tried it, the system sucked, they want a replacement. The store seems to be saying that "oh, we will swap that but we are going to take it out of the 14 day period of the new one, and if it has problems or defects, that's your gamble". Again, that would not be acceptable, since the store is not following through on the contract made with the customer of providing goods as advertised.

This would be a completely different deal if the store had a clear sign stating that dead pixels are not counted, and that is at the customer's risk; or of that was clearly explained by the salespeople prior to the contractual agreement. Having such a thing in fine print in a manual that is inside the box simply wouldn't count, as the box is sealed and the customer did not have time to have such documentation checked out by a lawyer.

The other point is a technical point. Manufacturers have different policies, and some LCD screens do have dead or stuck pixels - ones that mostly go unnoticed. As a general fact, if a dead pixel is noticable on a LCD screen, it is probably a clump of three or four dead pixels - and that is generally considered to be a defect by manufacturers. For example, Akai allows up to 7 dead pixels on a screen, but only 4 can be contained within a one inch square box, and none can be ajacent. Samsung on the other hand, has a 0 dead pixel policy, with free replacement up to 6 months if the screen has not been abused.

The same general rules apply to any item that is purchased, and that isn't exempted by specific legislation. People have attempted to make a parallel to cars. However, automobiles are covered under specific legislation that is quite a but different, and the same with many services, like funerals, wine making, distillation, food production, professional accounting services, etc.

In this case, I think it would be best of the store had simply made the swap under Apple's 14 day trial period, without the threats of "oh, if you swap it, you can't get any warranty service later", because such threats are really detested by judges.

Even if a store has a sign posted, even a clearly stated sign posted - judges will usually rule in favour of a customer if the store did not attempt to follow through on their end of the deal, and in this case, would be that the store provides a product that functions as advertised and is free of adverse defects, and that the store follows through on the existing policy of a 14 day trial period.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> ISO standards are not the law, they are standards that industries can choose to follow at their pleasure.
> 
> In our system of Common Law, consumers are entitled to receive what they had contracted and paid for. There are exceptions: of the product was sold "As Is" or is less than $50, or if the store has a clearly stated and specific sign or specifically stated during the negotiat




Evan I think this is all flying over your head here. You are missing the point , the ISO doesn't have to be a law , there is nothing anywhere that states an LCD panel of 1 million pixels must be all lit up. it has nothing to do with consumerism or laws , there is no harm to the consumer since the standard for the panel he just bought is not considered flawless by ISO and it is not up to the stores to inform consumers of ISO and manufacturing standards. 

You are assuming a standard for a flawless LCD panels exists but it doesn't so when a consumer buys a panel with dead pixels he is getting exactly what he paid for as long as it stays within the spec of ISO.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
No, my point is that the customer bought a laptop and does not fulfill that which is contracted, that the machine is brand new and functional. The ISO has nothing at all to do with it. Apple has a return policy, and the customer is dissatisfied not only at the material defects, but that the remedy is to "spin the wheel" on another machine that may not make the grade. And unless the store was specific in stating that screens can have so many defects, or the unit is sold as-is, this is nothing more than misrepresentation and fraud.

The law doesn't care how any pixels an LCD has, and whether or not they light up or not - what the law concerns itself with is that the contract (in this case, a retail purchase) is fulfilled. This is concealed damage, and if it was brought to court as a case, the judge would rule based on resetting to the status prior to the contract, that is, the store would hand back the cash for the product. I have never been in a retail store where there is a sign stating a policy on "dead pixels", nor have I ever seen a disclaimer in an advertisement stating a policy, nor have I ever talked to a salesperson who stated that such a policy exists.

The point on whether or not dead pixels can cause harm or not, or whether there is a specification registered to the ISO, makes no difference. It is all about the terms of the contracting parties, and the customer has the expectation that they will receive a fully functional machine free of defects, while the store has the expectation that the customer will pay in full. In this case, the customer did not receive the goods in good order, are dissatisfied with the defective product, and the store did nothing but threaten the customer about some policy that had never been disclosed.

Harm is another issue all together. If this was applied to say, a car, a customer could sign a contract with the dealership, which locks the customer into the deal, then the dealer could go carve up the dashboard with a knife, and make the claim that the car is entirely fine, since it runs, and that the carved up dashboard offers no harm to the customer. However, the law does not look at it that way. If the car was purchased new, the customer has the expectation to receive a car in good order, free of such defects, and that if the car does not make the grade, then the car company has to make the corrections in order to compensate for such defects. Now, if the car was used, and sold as-is, and the dashboard was carved up prior to sale and that damage disclosed to the buyer (who agrees to purchase anyways), then the situation is different.

The other fact is that the vast majority of LCD screens are entirely fully functional, and only after 7 years of on-the-road use (and being left in the car to roast in the summer or freeze in the winter), the screen is still fully functional with the exception of one stuck pixel at the top tip of the Apple stem, which stays green. I think few people have problems with dead pixels, and the assembly processes are vastly improved since the ISO cooked up a standard.

I think the customer, paying large money for a brand new sealed in box system, entirely has the right to not only expect a fully functional machine, but to recieve a fully functional machine - and if the machine is not fully functional, then it is up to the store to either exchange the unit for a functional machine, or to replace the LCD with a fully functional unit, or to dish out a refund.

Counting pixels is bunk, because they replace defective hard drives all the time, even though it may be a small, 1KB error in Track 0 - which on a 1TB drive is negligible. For a dead pixel to be apparent, it will be a clump of three or four dead pixels, which is a real defect by any measure.

For the sake of swapping a machine and keeping a customer happy - that store is surely loosing major sales because it is all about telling friends not to go there because of shoddy service or because they sell defective products. It's the same mentality that clobbered GM, with endless runs of defective cars that no one wants. This is such an unusual situation for Apple, since they pride themselves on their 14 day trial - and are miles above the shoddy service shoveled out by Dell, though Dell will entirely replace a defective LCD, especially if the dead pixel is in the meat of the screen, and not a solitary pixel out of the borderlands which would not affect the use of the machine.


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## Jacklar (Jul 23, 2005)

EvanPitts said:


> ^^^
> No, my point is that the customer bought a laptop and does not fulfill that which is contracted, that the machine is brand new and functional. The ISO has nothing at all to do with it. Apple has a return policy, and the customer is dissatisfied not only at the material defects, but that the remedy is to "spin the wheel" on another machine that may not make the grade. And unless the store was specific in stating that screens can have so many defects, or the unit is sold as-is, this is nothing more than misrepresentation and fraud.


Do a bit of research before posting random gibberish and spouting off your how your going to take big bad apple to court because of a bad pixel or two. If you don't like it, I'm sure you'll enjoy a Dell with Windows Vista. :lmao:

About LCD display pixel anomalies



> There are typically millions of these subpixels on an LCD display. For example, the LCD panel used in the Apple Cinema HD display is made up of 2.3 million pixels and 6.9 million red, green, and blue subpixels. Occasionally, a transistor does not work perfectly, which may result in the affected subpixel being turned on (bright) or turned off (dark). With the millions of subpixels on a display, it is quite possible to have a low number of faulty transistors on an LCD. Therefore, a certain number of subpixel anomalies is considered acceptable. *Rejecting all but perfect LCD panels would significantly increase the retail price for products using LCD displays.* These factors apply to all manufacturers using LCD technology--not just Apple products.


I guess its cool if you want to pay $12,000 for LCD's.


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## Manatus (May 11, 2009)

Really though, why would a "zero tolerance" policy on visible dead pixels cause anything near that price jump? I mean the whole reason that people complain about them is that the vast majority of LCDs are perfect to the naked eye, so they feel hard done by if theirs has a dead pixel. If almost every LCD had a cluster of dead pixels, that would be the norm and no one would really get upset by it. Personally, I haven't ever seen one in over 10 years. With today's manufacturing capabilities, even if manufacturers were forced by law to take back and rework/scrap any device with visible dead pixels, how many would that really be, in proportion? They probably get more returns for excessive noise, cracked housing and other defects, it seems like a holdover from the days when quality was much worse and these things cost thousands of dollars each.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

Why can't they just swap a screen out at the store if there is a problem? I had an iPhone screen go on me, and they had it replaced in minutes.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Manatus said:


> Really though, why would a "zero tolerance" policy on visible dead pixels cause anything near that price jump? I mean the whole reason that people complain about them is that the vast majority of LCDs are perfect to the naked eye, so they feel hard done by if theirs has a dead pixel. If almost every LCD had a cluster of dead pixels, that would be the norm and no one would really get upset by it. Personally, I haven't ever seen one in over 10 years. With today's manufacturing capabilities, even if manufacturers were forced by law to take back and rework/scrap any device with visible dead pixels, how many would that really be, in proportion? They probably get more returns for excessive noise, cracked housing and other defects, it seems like a holdover from the days when quality was much worse and these things cost thousands of dollars each.


Very good point. Exactly why I think their excuse is BS when a customer has a complaint about a stuck pixel or two.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
A zero dead pixel policy would not lead to a dramatic increase in prices - as Samsung has shown by having a zero bad pixel policy, and their LCDs are entirely competitively priced in the market.

Most LCDs have zero deal pixels, and I think a poll of EhMacers would demonstrate this. I have 3 LCD displays (2 iBooks and my Benq monitor) - and I only have one stuck pixel on a 8 year old iBook that usually stays in the car summer and winter, and that pixel is at the top tip of the Apple stem, so no one notices it unless there is a Preview in Full Screen mode. Of my friends, I know no one that has a dead pixel on any of their Macs; and even at school, in the open labs that really get pounded, there was only one machine out of perhaps 90 or so that had a dead pixel - and that's where someone jammed their pen.

In this case, it is a brand new machine, with a dead pixel in the meat of the screen, with a 14 day policy in place - so the "oh, we can't swap your defective machine because of some policy that we don't tell people about and don't bother to put it on a sign, but if you want to try another machine, you are taking a gamble because it probably has more dead pixels and we won't swap that" just doesn't wash.

Not only is the store acting in a fraudulent and deceptive manner, they are building a reputation as a place not to go because of shoddy service and a place where there is a distinct absence of after sales service.


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## Polygon (Feb 6, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> Not only is the store acting in a fraudulent and deceptive manner, they are building a reputation as a place not to go because of shoddy service and a place where there is a distinct absence of after sales service.


"Fraud" is a very serious word. I hope you're not implying that the multitude of warranties and repair agreements should all be read out by the sales staff to everyone customer before any purchase is made, after all, there would then be no reason why dead pixel policy should be the only "deception." Could it be considered deceptive to not mention that hard drives fail, and you should back up your data? Or perhaps that the CPU can fry, and you should not stake your business 24/7 functionality? Should customers be aware that damage caused by lightning strikes invalidate warranty coverage on the affected parts?

Ostensibly, yes, but a store is not acting fraudulently or deceptively by not mentioning every section and bullet point of every agreement. It could be considered fraudulent if a store implied or guaranteed that a product would work perfectly and without fail, knowing that the warranty and repair programs exist because the opposite is true, but I've yet to encounter anyone this out-of-touch.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

Fraud doesn't apply here, not even the slightest bit , ISO does apply , right down to the last word. You are trying to argue a manufacturing defect but the defect is not considered one by any standard , hence there is no argument . Buying is your choice , they write on the box what standard it adheres to and it is up to you to inform yourself. 

A return policy is a contract , a contract can have a clause. The clause will state the store does not go above and beyond ISO standards. 

Samsung also makes the LCD , that is why they can have a zero policy , it costs them the same and the dead pixel ones go to other lesser known brands and the perfect ones they keep , and you will pay more for a samsung.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Polygon said:


> "Fraud" is a very serious word. I hope you're not implying that the multitude of warranties and repair agreements should all be read out by the sales staff to everyone customer before any purchase is made,


It is fraud simply because the system that was purchased did not come as advertised, and the store did not even bother honouring the 14 day trial guarantee. It is obvious that the customer is dissatisfied with the defective screen, so instead of issuing a replacement, or repairing the defective LCD; the store chose to dish out some lame excuse and making veiled threats that if the customer did swap the machine with another one - their would be no warranty on it.

The expectation is that a given unit works as advertised - Apple does not make commercials showing dead pixels, nor do they issue any disclaimer that their systems may come with dead pixels. 

Not only that, the store clearly is not honouring any warranty, since they refused to exchange the unit within the 14 day period that Apple allows, and they refused to replace the defective screen under warranty. Thus, the store doing what they did is acting in a fraudulent and deceptive manner.



> Could it be considered deceptive to not mention that hard drives fail, and you should back up your data?


It would be deceptive to and fraudulent to sell a defective hard drive, or CPU, or whatever, to a customer, and then not honour the warranty or take any steps to remedy the situation. It would be like saying "oh, hard drives have defects so we are not going to replace it, and if we do replace it and the new unit is defective, your stuck with it without a warranty."



> Should customers be aware that damage caused by lightning strikes invalidate warranty coverage on the affected parts?


Next to the fact that is common sense, many places will actually warn customers about lightning and surges when they suggest buying a surge protected power bar. In this case, it is not common sense that a screen that is partially burned out with dead pixels is somehow normal - and really, if the store had been up to par, they would have set the customer's machine up for inspection to make sure everything was fine. Instead, they handed out a sealed box containing the machine, and when the customer got home to try it out, they found the concealed damage. When the customer went to seek a remedy, the customer was railroaded by false excuses, even though Apple allows a certain trial period, and that the machine is entirely under warranty.



> Ostensibly, yes, but a store is not acting fraudulently or deceptively by not mentioning every section and bullet point of every agreement. It could be considered fraudulent if a store implied or guaranteed that a product would work perfectly and without fail, knowing that the warranty and repair programs exist because the opposite is true, but I've yet to encounter anyone this out-of-touch.


The problem is that the machine is defective - but the store will not offer a remedy that involves repairing the problem, either through a new machine that is free of defects, or by replacement under warranty. The store implied that the machine would be a fully working, brand new machine that is covered under warranty as well as the trial period - and then renegged.

Legally, the store is on the hook to fulfill their end of the contract, that the customer will receive a fully functional machine in good order - and if it is not in good order, that the machine would be covered under a trial period as well as a warranty. The machine in question is obviously not in good order, the customer is dissatisfied, and simply wants either a working machine or their money back.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

shredder said:


> Buying is your choice , they write on the box what standard it adheres to and it is up to you to inform yourself.


I don't know what computer box you have looked at - I have never seen a box that states that the machine contained inside may have a defective LCD riddled with dead pixels that is not covered under warranty because the ISO says that defects are fine.

As for informing - the customer became informed when they tried out their new computer and found concealed damage, and was further informed when they were railroaded when they requested replacement under the trial period and / or under warranty.



> A return policy is a contract , a contract can have a clause.


A return policy IS a part of the contract. If the bill of sale stated that the machine is sold "as-is", then it would be up to the customer to repair the machine at their own cost. But in this case, the machine is sold as new, and under warranty, which binds the store to replacing or repairing the damaged goods because new implies that the machine will be in good order and fully functional.




> The clause will state the store does not go above and beyond ISO standards.


I have no idea what you are talking about. Canada is not bound by ISO standards, nor are stores or manufacturers. If a company wants to sell product to the EU, then they need to comply with ISO standards. This is not the case at all, no one is selling a laptop to the EU. It simply is a clear case of a product that had concealed damage, and the store refuses to honour not only their warranty because of some lame, half baked excuse, but the advertised trial period in which the consumer is allowed to check out the goods to see if they like it or not.



> Samsung also makes the LCD , that is why they can have a zero policy , it costs them the same and the dead pixel ones go to other lesser known brands and the perfect ones they keep , and you will pay more for a samsung.


As I pointed out, this is not the case, and Samsung LCD monitors are entirely competitively priced in the marketplace. If a company buys "rejects" and puts those products into their own product - there are laws that clearly state that the product will have affixed a label that clearly states that the product is a second, and may contained reconditioned components.

I have also stated that for the vast majority of Mac users, dead pixels are not a problem because Apple generally uses high quality displays made by reputable manufacturers using modern production and inspection means. Thus, the customer can rightfully make a case that their machine is defective, since the vast majority of Apple laptops do not come with dead pixels, and that Apple entirely replaces machines that do have defective displays under the conditions of their warranty - just like Apple replaces other parts, like power supplies, inverter boards, logic boards, hard drives, batteries, etc. that may be defective.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> A return policy IS a part of the contract. If the bill of sale stated that the machine is sold "as-is", then it would be up to the customer to repair the machine at their own cost. But in this case, the machine is sold as new, and under warranty, which binds the store to replacing or repairing the damaged goods because new implies that the machine will be in good order and fully functional.
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about. Canada is not bound by ISO standards, nor are stores or manufacturers. If a company wants to sell product to the EU, then they need to comply with ISO standards. This is not the case at all, no one is selling a laptop to the EU. It simply is a clear case of a product that had concealed damage, and the store refuses to honour not only their warranty because of some lame, half baked excuse, but the advertised trial period in which the consumer is allowed to check out the goods to see if they like it or not.


I'm jumping out of this thread , you seem to know absolutely nothing about laws or standards or courts or anything. Most of your comments are baseless bits which may make sense in other areas but do not apply in this case. If you tried to take any of this to a lawyer they would escort you out fast , if you tried to take it to court the clerk would dismiss it as baseless before a judge could even glance over your complaint.


Yes it is on the box , go and grab a monitor from futurehsop and you will find the ISO number on the box , it is your responsibility to make sure that the ISO meets your needs. If it doesn't don't buy it. 


Also your understanding of a return policy is poor , yes it is a contract and there are clauses and it could say anything reasonable .. Why would a store overrule an ISO authority and take responsibility for what the manufacturer won't. Stores know very little and are merely resellers , you can't seem to accept the fact that when a stores sells you an LCD they are selling you an ISO LCD , nothing above that , your imaginary ISO has not been drafted yet. 


When you can find an ISO which states there will be no dead pixels you will have a complaint and a reason to act on a return policy , until then educate yourself or just accept what I'm saying. It is all written in stone so you don't have to take my word for it , read the ISO , read our laws and you will see none of the stuff you mention applies.


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## Polygon (Feb 6, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> The expectation is that a given unit works as advertised - Apple does not make commercials showing dead pixels, nor do they issue any disclaimer that their systems may come with dead pixels.



A disclaimer.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

shredder said:


> I'm jumping out of this thread , you seem to know absolutely nothing about laws or standards or courts or anything. Most of your comments are baseless bits which may make sense in other areas but do not apply in this case. If you tried to take any of this to a lawyer they would escort you out fast , if you tried to take it to court the clerk would dismiss it as baseless before a judge could even glance over your complaint.
> 
> 
> Yes it is on the box , go and grab a monitor from futurehsop and you will find the ISO number on the box , it is your responsibility to make sure that the ISO meets your needs. If it doesn't don't buy it.
> ...


*THE ISO HAS NO JURISDICTION IN CANADA - IT IS ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY AND DOES NOT IMPOSE REGULATIONS THAT ALLOW COMPANIES TO SELL DEFECTIVE GOODS - NOR DOES THE ISO FORCE CUSTOMERS TO PAY OUT HUGE MONEY FOR DEFECTIVE, UNUSABLE EQUIPMENT*

You entirely do not understand the situation - the customer bought a brand new machine, covered under a trial period and warranty - the machine is defective - the store will not honour either the trial period, the warranty, and refused to replace or repair the defective machine, and refuses to give a full refund. Therefore the store is acting in a fraudulent manner, since any case where money is taken for services or goods, and those service or goods do not fulfill the original contract between the parties (ie. that the customer has paid for a working machine but instead received a defective machine), is clearly fraud and entirely illegal. The onus is on the store to provide that which was contracted for.

it seems to me to be a very simple case - that the machine is defective, and the store chooses not to undertake their end of the bargain. It is a simple thing, to either replace the defective screen with a properly functioning screen, or to swap the machine with a new machine, under the terms of the trial period offered by the warranty.

No matter what disclaimer Apple may happen to put on some obscure web site, the law is the law, and that the customer paid for a fully working machine, and that it is up to the store to provide that, or to give a full refund since they have shown they can not provide that which is advertised.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Polygon said:


> A disclaimer.


First - it is a US disclaimer, and most US jurisdictions have laws that regulate such things and Apple would entirely be obliged to either repair or replace the defective machine, or would have to provide a full refund.

In Canada, this kind of transaction comes under Common Law, which basically states that if a customer and a store have such a disagreement, then the contract is nullified and the previous state is restored - meaning that the customer is entitled to a full refund since the store can not provide the goods contracted for, that is, a fully functional laptop.

If this went to court, it would all come down to the expectation of the transaction, that the customer would receive a fully functional machine free of material defects, and of the store can not provide that, they shouldn't have entered into the contract in the first place. I think that the main crux of it would come down to the fact that the product was purchased in a sealed box, which could not undergo a presale inspection - and upon opening, the defect was uncovered. As the store chose not to provide a remedy for the defect, that is, through the replacement of the defective screen or unit, or through a full refund of the money paid - they are the ones in jeopardy, since it is the store that has not provided the goods as expected.

The judge would aslo look at the fact that the store did not have said disclaimer clearly posted, nor was it articulated as part of the sales process. The judge would also look at the disclaimer you found as being in an obscure site, not easily accessed by customers as part of the sales process, and that the disclaimer is one for the US, not the Canadian market. The fact is that obscure fine print can not override the rule of law - and the law is that if a store charges for a product, and that product is found to be defective, then it is up to the store to remedy the situation.


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## Polygon (Feb 6, 2009)

A retail purchase is not a contract. I'm out, but feel free to sway me with some actual documentation.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^


> Technically, any oral agreement between two parties can constitute a binding legal contract. The practical limitation to this, however, is that only parties to a written agreement have material evidence (the written contract itself) to prove the actual terms uttered at the time the agreement was struck. In daily life, most contracts can be and are made orally, such as purchasing a book or a sandwich.
> 
> Contrary to common wisdom, an exchange of promises can still be binding and legally as valid as a written contract. A spoken contract should be called an oral contract, which might be considered a subset of verbal contracts. Any contract that uses words, spoken or written, is a verbal contract. Thus, all oral contracts and written contracts are verbal contracts. This is in contrast to a "non-verbal, non-oral contract," also known as "a contract implied by the acts of the parties", which can be either implied in fact or implied in law.


Contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for fraud:



> Misrepresentation means a false statement of fact made by one party to another party and has the effect of inducing that party into the contract. For example, under certain circumstances, false statements or promises made by a seller of goods regarding the quality or nature of the product that the seller has may constitute misrepresentation. A finding of misrepresentation allows for a remedy of rescission and sometimes damages depending on the type of misrepresentation.
> 
> There are two types of misrepresentation in contract law, _fraud_ in the factum and _fraud_ in inducement. Fraud in the factum focuses on whether the party in question knew they were creating a contract. If the party did not know that they were entering into a contract, there is no meeting of the minds, and the contract is void. Fraud in inducement focuses on misrepresentation attempting to get the party to enter into the contract. _Misrepresentation of a material fact (if the party knew the truth, that party would not have entered into the contract) makes a contract voidable._


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Evan, it's true that Canada isn't bound by the laws of ISO, however, a retailer is certainly legally entitled to follow ISO regulations and if they print it on the box, it will hold up in court.

This has been going on since the beginning of retail LCD displays. Guess what, nothing's changed - LCDs are still allowed to have dead pixels and considered to be not defective.

If you disagree, prove it. Take the manufacturers to court. Let us know how it goes.


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

deleted double post


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

hayesk said:


> Evan, it's true that Canada isn't bound by the *laws of ISO*, however, a retailer is certainly legally entitled to follow *ISO regulations* and if they print it on the box, it will hold up in court.
> 
> This has been going on since the beginning of retail LCD displays. Guess what, nothing's changed - LCDs are still allowed to have dead pixels and considered to be not defective.
> 
> If you disagree, prove it. Take the manufacturers to court. Let us know how it goes.


ISO is a *standard* not a regulation or law, and it is an assurance that a company is adhering to Industry Standards and practices set out in the ISO documents. The ISO standard for dead pixels is only a guide line that is agreed upon by LCD manufactures. 



> To regulate the acceptability of defects and to protect the end user, ISO have created a standard for manufacturers to follow. ISO 13406-2 recommends how many defaults are acceptable in a display before it should be replaced, within the terms & conditions of warranty.
> 
> All reputable manufacturers conform to and support the ISO 13406-2 standard.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

hayesk said:


> Evan, it's true that Canada isn't bound by the laws of ISO, however, a retailer is certainly legally entitled to follow ISO regulations and if they print it on the box, it will hold up in court.


No where on the box does it state that the display may or will be defective, nor was the transaction for an "as-is" machine, nor was the display a "second", which would have to be disclosed prior to purchase.



> This has been going on since the beginning of retail LCD displays. Guess what, nothing's changed - LCDs are still allowed to have dead pixels and considered to be not defective.


Just because there were bad business practices in the past does not mean that the law can be flaunted by engaging in bad business practices now. Some manufacturers have a policy that allows a certain small number of isolated dead pixels, while others have a zero dead pixel policy. However, no matter what Apple's policy on this may or may not be, or whether that policy can be enforced or not, is not the point. More to the point is that Apple offers a 14 day trial period - the customer tried the machine and is not happy with it, and the store had renegged on that policy by not offering a replacement or refund.

As for a legal allowance for dead pixels, it is a debatable point, as a few manufacturers lost an important case in Europe on this very issue, even when they brought up ISO standards In Canada, the point wouldn't be whether or not there are dead pixels, but that the contract entered upon was in bad faith, since ths store did not follow there own policy and deliver functional goods as advertised, and the store did not follow through with their 14 day trial period and offer a replacement or refund.

Any time that I have seen this taken to Small Claims Court, the judge has always ruled in favour of the customer, since the store attempted no remedy of the situation, and judges really do frown on cases of concealed damage where the stores do not undertake a remedy.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

EvanPitts, can you provide any evidence of a court ruling in which someone has litigated over being able to return a laptop because it had a pixel problem, and a judge has ruled in their favour?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

This article is linked to off of Apple Canada's Support page.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

You are still missing the point , an LCD panel with a few dead pixels is not considered defective under the ISO spec , of course Canada isn't bound by it , but they are not bound by anything else either , they can sell you 50 dead pixels if they want , it just can't be labeled as ISO , those that meet it are labeled , your ISO of perfect pixels does not exist. Seeing that 10 people disagree with you and you are blabbering on about nonsense and things that don't exists why don't you prove us wrong by quoting a couple of court cases. Thousands of people get dead pixels every single day in Canada and the US, there must be thousands of cases against Acer, Dell, IBM Canada computers etc , show us 1 ..


Yes it is on the box ,, it is called and ISO number , of course they can't write the whole story on the box because the thing is probably 100 pages , are they supposed to cut out a paragraph regarding dead pixels because that is the one you don't understand, what about the strength of the backlight and the viewable degrees , should they write all that on the box because some out there was expecting to read his LCD from 160 degrees angle.. Where do you see this on any product ? You look for the ISO label and research it yourself. Only buy if you accept the quality of that ISO , don't try to blame a store of a mfct for your lack of knowledge.

Also you know as little about manufacturing as law, you think a perfect LCD would add $2 to the cost.. try $5,000 ... This proves how little you know about this , the LCD panel will not pop the pixel right away, it may pop up 2 minutes after the build or in 2 months.. What is a company supposed to do , take the LCD off the press and have people view it for hours , then store , come back to it 1-2 days later, view it again , burn it in for another 72 hrs, store it, view it again , when does this stop , after 30 days ? then you want them to package it and take it back because it may pop another pixel is 2 months later on the shelf... You have just added 10, 000 workers to your LCD plant and an endless cycle of quality control. You are proposing a company hold a skid of panels for months and invest several man hours per LCD , the company wouldn't even be able to cover the rent for the floor space.. come on give your head a shake. If the market wanted this it would already exist.

Your 15" LCD is now $7,500 in store..


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

ehMax said:


> EvanPitts, can you provide any evidence of a court ruling in which someone has litigated over being able to return a laptop because it had a pixel problem, and a judge has ruled in their favour?




I doubt he can , the only time I ever heard of a dead pixel case back in the 90's was dismissed at the request for information stage of the hearing, and because the small PC store had to get a lawyer to answer to the frivolous claim they counter sued the customer for legal fees, which in this case would be evan.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

ehMax said:


> EvanPitts, can you provide any evidence of a court ruling in which someone has litigated over being able to return a laptop because it had a pixel problem, and a judge has ruled in their favour?


They do not have repositories of such cases which appear in Small Claims Court, where these issues are resolved. The biggest problem is that the store refuse to do an exchange under the 10 day period mandated by the Consumer Protection Act, and I would further be liable since they renegged on their 14 day trial period, nor did the store commit to repairing or replacing the defective product - which is what the case would be about in the first place.

Apple has a weak case - saying that there are bound to be defects when one is dealing with a few million transistors. If this was the case, memory, which is composed of billions of transistors, would be riddled with errors. This is not the case, and if a memory stick is to be found defective, it would be replaced under said warranties with no question. This is not some machine that has been used and abused - it is a brand new machine with concealed damage that was found when the box was opened, and should be replaced under the terms and conditions of the sale.

If anything, it just makes their product look shoddy, and after such an experience, where someone spent large money and received an unusable, defective machine, it's just creating an impression that Apple is just like some slip-shod company that is building their machines out of garbage parts, and does not honour their guarantees and warranty.

But beyond that, the onus is on the store to correct the situation, without resorting to threatening the customer as they did, and without the endless lies and misrepresentations that they dished out. The customer simply wants a working machine that they paid for, that works as advertised - and the store renegged...


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

shredder said:


> You are still missing the point , an LCD panel with a few dead pixels is not considered defective under the ISO spec


I don't care about the ISO or their point. The only concern is that the customer purchased what was supposed to be a fully functional machine, and that there are two layers of warranty to cover defects of materials and workmanship. The customer bought a machine, took it home, opened it up, found it to be defective - and was railroaded by the store. The ISO has nothing to do with it - Apple gives a 14 day trial period, and the computer was found to be defective, therefore the cutomer doesn't want it. It's a trial period, and Apple is entirely on the hook since it is their part of the contractual agreement.



> Thousands of people get dead pixels every single day in Canada and the US, there must be thousands of cases against Acer, Dell, IBM Canada computers etc , show us 1 ..


I don't think these things land in court very often - because once a corporate lawyer sees the case, they fold because it is obvious that the terms of the contract were broken by not replacing the defective machine. But it stands that the contract was entirely broken, the machine is basically only usable by connecting it to an external monitor, which doesn't make the machine very portable at all.



> are they supposed to cut out a paragraph regarding dead pixels because that is the one you don't understand, what about the strength of the backlight and the viewable degrees , should they write all that on the box because some out there was expecting to read his LCD from 160 degrees angle..


If a customer checked out a demo machine, and the viewing angle and brightness were entirely acceptable, but on the machine that they were given was found to have a defective screen with inadequate viewing angle and poor brightness - if what you say is true, then the store would not have to replace the defective screen or backlight. Of course, that is entirely silly, the store would certainly replace or repair the defect because it is a defect that was concealed. Same with dead pixels, so unless the demo machine had dead pixels which prompted a question about policy about dead pixel damage, then it is a case of misrepresentation.



> don't try to blame a store of a mfct for your lack of knowledge.


By the point you make here, only a fully qualified automotive engineer would be able to purchase a car, since the regular man on the street knows nothing about the SAE, or one would have to be a fully qualified audio engineer to purchase a stereo, and so on.



> you think a perfect LCD would add $2 to the cost.. try $5,000 ...


However, the proof is in the pudding - Samsung makes a vast number of LCD screens that are cost competitive and are dead pixel free. Out of the people I know with LCDs, I know of only one machine that has a single stuck pixel (and it is an 8 year old warhorse). I never paid $5000 for any LCD monitor, more like $250 or so in the day.



> roves how little you know about this , the LCD panel will not pop the pixel right away, it may pop up 2 minutes after the build or in 2 months..


We are not talking about pixels "popping" at some time in the future - we are talking about a machine that had dead pixels from the moment it was taken out of the box and powered up, and hence, is under Apple's own trial period.



> What is a company supposed to do , take the LCD off the press and have people view it for hours , then store , come back to it 1-2 days later, view it again , burn it in for another 72 hrs, store it, view it again , when does this stop , after 30 days ?


You are being silly. The expectation is that the customer receives the machine they paid for, that being a machine that is fully operational - and that if it is not fully operational, then the customer's expectation is that the machine is made operational, either by repairing the defect, exchanging it for a non defective unit, or by issuing a full refund.

It's just like anything, no one is saying that Apple has to drop by your house every day to make sure your hard drive is working properly - but if a defect is found, the expectation is that Apple will deal with that defect and make things proper.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> I don't care about the ISO or their point. The only concern is that the customer purchased what was supposed to be a fully functional machine,


No !!! they only purchased up to what is included in the ISO spec , nothing above that , and the ISO spec states dead pixels are as good as "A" ok. 

When you accept that your version of an LCD ISO doesn't exists you will understand, until then it is baseless to argue because you are giving way more inaccurate information each post. such as your excuse for not being able to find a court case , don't you think if only 1 existed every PC magazine would kill to publish the story if not the whole suit .

There is no law or policy or consumer act you can invoke if the product already meets ISO specs. End of story on that one. Try to complain to office depot that you can only get 700mb on a CDR.


PS: This didn't start at the consumer level so don't bother arguing it ,, don't you think that before a consumer ever got the 286 laptop with the dead pixel the OEM maker didn't get it first and try to return it to the MFCT to prevent a pissed off customer who paid $6000 to stare at an all black screen with stars on it.


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## AgentXXL (May 2, 2008)

Can't remember where I came across this or if it's even official. It does look like an Apple document but even if official, it is dated. It is a jpeg file but I have no idea if it's a scan, a screengrab or a fake. 

http://bayimg.com/image/eakmlaabc.jpg

EDIT: I guess I found it right here on ehmac last August:

http://www.ehmac.ca/anything-mac/6534-dead-pixel-policy-again-2.html#post714414


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

EvanPitts said:


> The biggest problem is that the store refuse to do an exchange under the 10 day period mandated by the Consumer Protection Act,


Ok, here's an easier one. Please find me documentation about Consumer Protection Act in Canada / Ontario which states stores must do an exchange within 10 days for consumer electronics.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> Stores and other suppliers are not legally required to offer refunds or exchanges. It’s important that you check each store’s policy before making a purchase – and get it in writing.


that is taken directly from the (apparently) oft-misunderstood ontario consumer protection website


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

shredder said:


> No !!! they only purchased up to what is included in the ISO spec , nothing above that , and the ISO spec states dead pixels are as good as "A" ok.


WRONG! The customer did not purchase an ISO specification - they purchased a laptop. Once they got home and opened the box, they found concealed damage, a non-functional , defective screen that does not work as advertised. It is absurd to state that "oh, the system works fine, so long as you connect it to some extenral monitor." The whole point of a laptop is to have portability, and having to lug around a giant external monitor does not make it portable.

Even Apple's own web site states that one can entirely return a product within 14 days, and that defective products are covered under warranty and will be repaired or replaced under that warranty.



> don't you think if only 1 existed every PC magazine would kill to publish the story if not the whole suit .


PC Magazine would have no interest in Small Claims Court cases, and no one could claim massive, multi-million dollar damages arising from dead pixels. Besides, I am sure that if the customer accelerated their complaint, and contacted Apple directly, they would end up with a positive result, that being a replacement machine that is fully funtional. And if this did not happen, then in a court, the customer would win based on the fact that the store misrepresented the customer by not informing them that they may receive a defective, unusable machine.



> There is no law or policy or consumer act you can invoke if the product already meets ISO specs.


Again, you are wrong because you seem to think that the ISO is some kind of law - while we are talking about a deal between a store and a customer that went bad because the store will not live up to their end of the contract, that being the provision of a fully functional machine as advertised. The onus is on the store to provide a remedy to a contract that they broke, their options being the repair of the defective screen, the exchange of the unit for a fully functional unit, or a full refund of the cash. Otherwise, the customer ends up with an expensive piece of unusable junk while the store reaps the profits of fraud and misrepresentation.



> Try to complain to office depot that you can only get 700mb on a CDR.


If we use your ISO fixation approach - you can not fit 700MB on a CD-R, because ISO9660 defines a CD as 640MB. Thus, you could buy a whole spindle of disks there the outside tracks of the CD-R are damaged, but as long as it will fit 640MB, it would be absolutely fine. It wouldn't matter, in your world, that the discs could only hold 640MB, even though the box may state 700MB, because it is the ISO.

However, this is not the case. Stores will take returns on defective media simply because it is good for business and keeps customers happy, even though the media will comply with the 640MB specification of the ISO. They do this even though any product that is less than $50 is specifically exempted for the 10 day period. The only other exception would be if it was sold "as-is".



> don't you think that before a consumer ever got the 286 laptop with the dead pixel the OEM maker didn't get it first and try to return it to the MFCT to prevent a pissed off customer who paid $6000 to stare at an all black screen with stars on it.


Not sure of what you are talking about, since 286 based laptops used plasma screen, and in any case, if the laptop was found to be defective, it was covered under the terms of the warranty that applied at the time, and the store would have replaced or repaired such a machine, or be open to a legal challenge that the store would loose.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

broad said:


> that is taken directly from the (apparently) oft-misunderstood ontario consumer protection website



I am so glad you mentioned this. So many people have no idea what a sale is. 

it is optional to offer a return or warranty if they want to put confidence in the sale but totally not required for 99% of the stuff we buy.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> WRONG! The customer did not purchase an ISO specification - they purchased a laptop. Once they got home and opened the box, they found concealed damage, a non-functional , defective screen that does not work as advertised.
> 
> Even Apple's own web site states that one can entirely return a product within 14 days, and that defective products are covered under warranty and will be repaired or replaced under that warrantyy.



I never met anyone who is so wrong and a provider or false information to a forum , don't you have any sense of responsibility before leading on the readers with nonsense.

You say they didn't purchase an ISO spec , they purchased a laptop.. Well what is a laptop , me and my dad can build a laptop in the garage and sell it is one , and if it isn't built to ISO specs why would ISO exist and why is written on the box and on the manual.. You will find several ISO numbers in your manual , why ? just for fun ? There is no such thing as a laptop , I can fold a book and call it a laptop , there is a laptop made of ISO conforming parts but you can't seem to accept that. 

Think of how silly your comment is , a laptop isn't even a word let alone a definition for electronics. I could call my cat a laptop.

You should really educate yourself with ISO , nobody said it is binding or must be followed but if you actually want sell your goods it better meet ISO and be labeled as such or it will only sell in the 3rd world.. 

Also you still don't get that a return policy is a lengthy contract , when you get the bill from walmart it says on the bottom of the receipt that you are getting their version of a policy they wrote , not your version.. not the 3 words saying return in 14 days, that is the warning to tell you read the entire contract if you want to invoke it.

I could see the return policy saying such things as don't wear underwear and try to return it , do not brush your teeth with a toothbrush and try to return , do not burn a DVD and try to return it , do not return products that are not considered defective under ISO. 


What do you mean screen does not work as advertised ? 

That is a silly comment ,,, have you ever seen a future shop advertise such as thing as NO DEAD PIXELS .. this has never been advertised from anyone , to claim the screen does no work as advertised you must first prove that someone made such claim prior to the sale.. a black screen would be considered defective.
I have never come across an ad where they mentioned all pixels will be lit up. how would they advertise such nonesense since they don't open your box.

Evan go grab one of you manuals for a laptop or a LCD and read it , will you still deny it is manufactured to ISO spec after you read the manual and find the ISO numbers.

how are those court cases going , there isn't even 1 case in google mentioning a dead pixel lawsuit yet I can find the most obscure cases can in 2 seconds.

300 million people in our continent , not one case online..


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

shredder said:


> You say they didn't purchase an ISO spec , they purchased a laptop.. Well what is a laptop , me and my dad can build a laptop in the garage and sell it is one ,


Sure, so long as it complies with CSA standards for safety - you can build and sell whatever you wish to build and sell. However, if you tell a customer that your product will do some task, and the product does not actually do that task, it is a case of misrepresentation and fraud. The only variance is if the product was sold as-is.

If you build a laptop, lets say, and show the customer another machine that is capable of displaying millions of colours - and then sell that customer a machine in a sealed box that is capable of only displaying 4 colours, it is misrepresentation and fraud - even though a 4 colour display is defined under ISO standards. It comes down to the contract, and that contract is predicated upon the store providing a fully functional product that performs as advertised in exchange for an agreed price paid by the customer. If you had sold your homemade system in a sealed box, and the customer got home and found it did not perform to the specifications that you had sold it under, and then resorted to saying that "oh, 4 colours is in in the ISO, and that's what you bought, so tough luck", it is misrepresentation, as the machine can not perform to that which is expected in the negotiation phase of the contract.

By the same means, using your logic, if you went into a sub shop and ordered a roast beef sub, but they decided to give you a cheese sub without lettuce, and they said tough luck, a cheese sub without lettuce is on our menu - they would be in the same situation.

It is simple - the customer expects a fully functional machine, a machine that is covered by a trial period as well as a warranty. What the customer ended up with is a useless piece of garbage that does not meet the expectation set by the agreement of the sale.



> There is no such thing as a laptop,


That's a pretty crazy statement - it's like saying there are no cars that are sedans.



> there is a laptop made of ISO conforming parts but you can't seem to accept that.


Again, this whole thing has nothing to do with the ISO. The ISO did not misrepresent the customer, nor did they sell defective goods to the customer, nor did they reneg on their part of the agreement of sale since the ISO does not sell anything. A laptop is a product made up of parts, and those parts may or may not be built to some kinds of standards, whether ISO, CSA, UL, or whatever - but it is a product. The customer purchased the product and found that product to be defective, and simply wants the defect to be remedied. And that is what the law specifies, that unless the product is sold in as-is condition, it is up to both contracting parties to fulfill their obligations, meaning that the customer is obliged to pay the agreed price, while the store is obliged to supply a fully functional laptop.

If the customer fails to pay in full, like issues a rubber cheque, or cancels the payment on Visa or whatever, the store has the full right under the law to seek payment in full - and if the store fails to provide the product as advertised, the customer has the full right under the law to seek a remedy.



> I could see the return policy saying such things as don't wear underwear and try to return it , do not brush your teeth with a toothbrush and try to return , do not burn a DVD and try to return it , do not return products that are not considered defective under ISO.


If the bill of sale explicitly states that the display may be defective and is not covered under warranty, and that fact is made plain and clear to the customer during the negotiation phase, then such things would hold water because they are being sold as-is, free from any warranty or trial. However, this did not happen, because if it did, the customer would have demanded to inspect the machine prior to purchase. Again, the ISO has nothing to do with it - the display is defective because it does not function as demonstrated and advertised, and such policies were not disclosed, therefore the contract was made in bad faith, and is clearly misrepresentation.



> have you ever seen a future shop advertise such as thing as NO DEAD PIXELS ..


If you buy a machine from Future Shop and do not like it, you have the chance to return it within a specified time, that being the law as well as their customer service policy. They do not need to advertise the fact since they will follow through on their contractual agreement of supplying a fully working product, and of repairing or replacing a defective product.



> 300 million people in our continent , not one case online..


It's simple, Small Claims Courts cases are not published. If you want Small Claims Court cases to be published, then you should write your MPP to have a law put into place. Besides, I think that in the bulk of cases, manufacturers simply replace the machine in question under warranty, because it makes good customer service sense. A customer that gets ripped off and is stuck with an unusable machine is probably not going to return. And for the store to say - tough, we aren't going to remedy your defective product that had concealed damage, and that you can lug around a giant monitor with you so you can log in at HotSpots is entirely stupid.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> It's simple, Small Claims Courts cases are not published. If you want Small Claims Court cases to be published, then you should write your MPP to have a law put into place.


Yes they most certainly are. Cases are published in volumes periodically by Ontario Reports and collected in law libraries. Ontario Reports are the main Ontario case reporting service, run by the Law Society of Upper Canada.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

G-Mo said:


> Yes they most certainly are. Cases are published in volumes periodically by Ontario Reports and collected in law libraries. Ontario Reports are the main Ontario case reporting service, run by the Law Society of Upper Canada.



I was just going to say I read hundreds of small claims cases online , mostly from the US but still they around , also I would be happy with just to find a mention of a case , not even the court docket. 

And this wouldn't always be a small claims issue as Evan says , because if someone actually sold you his version of a defective LCD it could cause you direct financial loss by losing some work contracts or loss of use , you would no longer be suing just for the panel but for the damages that arise from it.. not small claims at all.

A company I worked for years ago had a $1200 beef with a partner business , when the lawyer was finished it was around $6500 and it barely fit in small claims court. We claimed that their lack of fullfilment caused the trickle down effect , they settled for 50% of the $6500


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

shredder said:


> A company I worked for years ago had a $1200 beef with a partner business , when the lawyer was finished it was around $6500 and it barely fit in small claims court. We claimed that their lack of fullfilment caused the trickle down effect , they settled for 50% of the $6500


Small Claims Court in Ontario now handles claims up to $25,000.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

EvanPitts said:


> If the bill of sale explicitly states that the display may be defective and is not covered under warranty, and that fact is made plain and clear to the customer during the negotiation phase, then such things would hold water because they are being sold as-is, free from any warranty or trial. However, this did not happen, because if it did, the customer would have demanded to inspect the machine prior to purchase. Again, the ISO has nothing to do with it - the display is defective because it does not function as demonstrated and advertised, and such policies were not disclosed, therefore the contract was made in bad faith, and is clearly misrepresentation.


This one may hold the record for most gibberish spewed in once sentence. Print that out and try reading it to someone who passed grade 9..

Didn't you see the post above where it states everything is sold as is , this is the law of the country. You do not need to write on the receipt that is sold as is. 


Honestly have another drink , you make no sense at all , at least some people cut and paste a reference , you can't find one to back up the 10 or so false claims you made. Nothing you say is true , prove us wrong , try to sue for a dead pixel. If you need a judge or court clerk to read the last page of your manual so be it.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

G-Mo said:


> Small Claims Court in Ontario now handles claims up to $25,000.


Back then it was $10k or under


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> Yes they most certainly are. Cases are published in volumes periodically by Ontario Reports and collected in law libraries. Ontario Reports are the main Ontario case reporting service, run by the Law Society of Upper Canada.


I didn't know that Small Claims stuff was published at all - I should go back and check out all of the cases I have won so I can gloat about such things! I don't know if they make it into the online world - a lot of that stuff is by subscription so Google's crawler wouldn't be able to index them.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

shredder said:


> This one may hold the record for most gibberish spewed in once sentence. Print that out and try reading it to someone who passed grade 9..
> 
> Didn't you see the post above where it states everything is sold as is , this is the law of the country. You do not need to write on the receipt that is sold as is.
> 
> ...


shredder... while I'm on your side of the argument, please do keep discussions civil and not make comments like, "Have another drink" etc... 

Debate the issue, not the member.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

It's kinda hard to debate the issue when each post a new piece of false information pops up. The issue is over , it was debated in the first 5 posts. the last 60 were attempts to educate the member but he prefers his interpretation of the law and his specification of a laptop. So have fun , I like to help but there is no helping some people.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

shredder said:


> Didn't you see the post above where it states everything is sold as is , this is the law of the country. You do not need to write on the receipt that is sold as is.


If everything is sold "as-is" - it would be illegal for any company or store to offer warranty repairs, refunds, and recalls would be absurd. As-is generally refers to used items, and it has to be defined that way clearly to the customer. Non-disclosure is misrepresentation, which is fraud - as I pointed out earlier. If you buy a laptop that is covered under warranty and a trial period, it is obviously not "as-is", because "as-is" clearly defines the product of not having a warranty or trial period.

Concealed damage is considered to be fraud because it is fraud - the store would be selling a non functional product. If what you said was true of the law, then people that buy iPhones on eBay but end up with some dirty dish clothes instead would have no case, because it is "as-is". The contractual obligation stands, that the customer pays a certain amount of cash for a product supplied by the store. In this case, it is a new machine that is sold with a warranty, therefore the store is bound to the contractual obligations of the sale. If the contract is broken, then it comes down to a remedy, which in Common Law is to reset to the situation prior to the contract. This would mean that if the store was not willing to repair or replace the defective machine, then the store must issue a full refund in return for the product in question. If this ended up in Small Claims Court, then the store would end up not only issuing a refund in full, but would probably be stiffed with court fees.

Common sense just states that the store should repair or replace the defective machine, since this situation will only serve to drive other customers away. Even without common sense, the store is still obligated by the sales agreement to honour said warranty and said trial period, and if they are not able to, then they have to refund the money because the store is committing an act of fraud since it can not supply the product that was agreed to by the act of the sales agreement.



> If you need a judge or court clerk to read the last page of your manual so be it.


I have never seen a manual that states that the company will not honour their warranty because of a defect in manufacturing or materials, nor have I ever seen any printed materials from Apple that state their commercial advertising is bogus and one can not actually do any of the things demonstrated because the screen will not be fully operational.

I supplied a number of references earlier that you chose to ignore, while you have prattled on about some silly ISO standard that is not legally binding and does not apply to this case. The ISO does not regulate defects - the ISO does not state that customers are entitled to non-functional displays because, gosh darn it, displays are hard to make.

Following what you state, a customer may end up having to buy three or four laptops (or maybe more), because everything is sold "as-is", so a broken keyboard means buy another machine and try again, just like if the hard drive seizes, or the memory is defective and riddled with errors, or if the backlight is faulty. This clearly is not the state of affairs, products are regularly sold with warranties, quite often with policies that allow for a trial period or a return if not satisfied, and beyond that, a consumer has the Consumer Protection Act that allows for a 10 day period to uncover concealed defects, unless that product was specifically sold "as-is" or is under $50 in value.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

There are tons of definitions: 

Misrepresentation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Misrepresentation is a contract law concept. It means a false statement of fact made by one party to another party, which has the effect of inducing that party into the contract. For example, under certain circumstances, false statements or promises made by a seller of goods regarding the quality or nature of the product that the seller has may constitute misrepresentation. A finding of misrepresentation allows for a remedy of rescission and sometimes damages depending on the type of misrepresentation."

This is a case of misrepresentation since the seller said the machine would be brand new and completely functional - but it was not, once the concealed damage was discovered, and discovered within 10 days of the sale of goods, the seller did not undertake to remedy the matter.

And about remedy or rescission:

"The idea behind rescission is that the parties are restored to the positions they were before entering into the contract."

Thus, if the seller chooses not to repair or exchange the defective unit, the contract is dissolved, and the status is restored to the position prior to the contract, that being a full refund in exchange for the defective goods.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

I found no references from you , actually almost everything has been false.


Why wouldn't the ISO apply , it is the only thing that applies , if a standard has not been written there is no standard hence how could you take someone to court over an issue that doesn't exist , if the standard is not written or not adhered to it is only your imagination of the quality you should expect , and unless a company makes that claim of no dead pixels you have no case.. Think about it , what law do you plan to sue under that the other 1 million lawyers couldn't do before you.. 

Since you ignore the ISO , and you can't find one link to an advertisement stating no dead pixels what would be the actual wrongdoing ? nobody misrepresented anything . for misrepresentation to occur you would need an ad stating the claim 

"no dead pixels will found in this laptop"


Quote the lawsuit for 1 dead pixel claim in north america.. until then court is dismissed.. your previous excuse was that it isn't published but you now agree that is incorrect so where is it ? 

The only article I could find was from pcbytes on this issue and they said exactly what I said . Dead pixels are a bummer but there is no legal recourse of any kind , don't buy an LCD if you can't accept the terms of the build or better yet don't draft your perfect panel ISO and try to hold someone to it because it doesn't exist.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Your point is without merit. You are fixated on some ISO garbage - standards that do not apply because they are standards, not regulations. The only point is that the customer paid for a brand new, fully functional syustem - and did not receive that, and the store railroaded the customer by not providing a remedy for the situation.

Many manufacturers have a zero dead pixel policy, like Samsung - and none of their LCD screens are $5000 more than the competitions. Other manufacturers have generous policies when it comes to dead pixels, like Akai makes an allowance for up to 7 dead pixels, so long as they are not within 1 inch of each other, and do not interfere with notrmal use of the screen. You also do not understand that the customer has the option of returning the product, since Apple offers a trial period; coupled with the 10 day period mandated by the Consumer Protection Act.

End of case. I am no longer going to waste time on any of this ISO malarkey. If you have something useful to add, then do so, but if it is reference to some obscure ISO standard - standards that are not observed under the rule of law in this country - then it is not worth continuing.

So I really hope you get suckered into buying a defective unusable laptop at some time, just so you know what it is like to be a consumer who feels they are allowed to be robbed by corporates and their obscure fine print.


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## Tailrotor (May 8, 2009)

Funny, but in all the LCD monitors I've ever used, whether at work or at home, I can't honestly ever remember having noticed a stuck or dead pixel. 

Anyways, since people are talking about ISO standards, I thought it might be useful to post this link. I found it very interesting considering the discussion.

Note that according to the link, most manufacturers refer to Class 2 with respect to LCD monitor quality but that if they do not specify, then the monitor is Class 1 (ie, zero defects) by default. Given the article is dated March 2003, it may be this info is quite out of date given the improvements in manufacturing processes realized over the last 6 years.

Does anyone know whether Apple specifies Class 2 anywhere? Just for fun, I checked the box my Macbook came in and couldn't find any references to ISO anywhere either on the box or in the documentation that came with it.


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## shredder (Mar 15, 2009)

Tailrotor said:


> Funny, but in all the LCD monitors I've ever used, whether at work or at home, I can't honestly ever remember having noticed a stuck or dead pixel.


Not bad , class 1 and class 4 and widely ignored , nobody uses them. Class 4 would allow for 260 dead pixels. This ISO basically states that my monitor could have up to 6 dead pixels before I have a complaint.


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