# Challenger to the iPod Suffle



## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

http://www.walkman.sony.co.jp/index.html

I think it looks fantastic! Price-wise, it's very similar to the iPod shuffle, but it boasts a display, longer battery life, and a FM tuner. don't complain about the lack of software integration either, SONY has been working closely with lots of software companies in Japan (often used exclusively in Japan) to have their ATRAC format in their music jukebox programs (similar to iTunes). 

what do you think? i want one.


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## dru (Nov 17, 2003)

*yeah right*

if its anything like any of sony's other products.. it will probably be like a gazillion dollars too much.... and atrack 3 compression is a marketing ploy....

I think I will stick with my 3g ipod... it blows both the shuffle and this sony product out of the water...


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## Bajan (Apr 11, 2004)

Yawn.....I'll stick to the iPod.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I think of it the same as that web site. Way too friggin cluttered.


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## PeterBarron (Sep 21, 2004)

What's the price? I couldn't make head nor tails of that site, and I don't think it'll ever make it to Canada.
I'll support Sony, love my PS2 and my Trinitron...


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Any player I buy must support Audible content. If this can do it for a reasonable price, it would be better for me than a shuffle. The display would make it much easier to manage listening to multiple audio books, etc.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

too.... much........ _FLASH!!!_

.... must..... *stop it! ....*











I think that the on-the-stick display is kinda cool, but the only games in town for secure file formats are Apple's AAC and MS's Janus -- and that's even a stretch for Janus.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

I like it. The shuffles are nice for some people but I could never buy one for myself because they have no screen.

These Sony ones would need MP3 and AAC support before I'd seriously look at them, though. And even then there's not much of a chance of me dumping my iPod.

For those who don't want to go to Sony's site, <A HREF="http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-media/sony/index.php#sonys-nw100-series-launches-035244" Target="_blank">Gizmodo</A> has a story on it.

<IMG SRC="http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/nwe505.jpg">


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## farfisa (Nov 5, 2003)

I think it'll do well in Japan, especially with girls, where the iPod mini totally cleaned up. Looks like a small bottle of perfume and the almost seamlessly integrated display is cool.

But woah, that site is a nightmare!


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## PeterBarron (Sep 21, 2004)

So no mp3 support, too bad, I may have bought one otherwise. I think the PSP will support mp3, I thought this was Sony finally giving up on ATRAC.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Folks, that "the-stick-_is_-the-display" thing is damned sweet. I gotta say... that is something you'd think Apple would have done.

Like, I'll be the first to drink the Cupertino Kool-Aid, but I always thought that iPod Shuffle not having a display is stupid. To me, it's the ultimate of Apple capitalizing on the iPod phenomena to sell a bad idea. And frankly, I kind of feel the same about the Mac Mini, what with no k/m (at least). It's like Apple will cut a corner... but it's in the oddest of places  if some unknowing person buys a Mac mini off the rack at BestBuy (um... someday) and just takes it home... and he's got PS/2 input devices... well, you got yerself one big matzo ball there.

Anyway, I think Sony's efforts will fail because of ATRAC and it's just too late to make a huge dent in the market (does that sound familiar to any of us here?). The janus platform has a better chance of giving Apple a run for its money.


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## PeterBarron (Sep 21, 2004)

Whoops, it does support mp3 according to the site....


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## iZac (Mar 6, 2005)

The display is pretty nice! But I wonder if it actually supports drag and drop of mp3s onto it. Usually the Sony network walkman players all need to be used with their own music program (I forget what it's called... it's like their version of iTunes, i guess). And if that program can't be installed on a mac... I wouldn't be able to use it even if i wanted to


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## Derrick (Dec 22, 2004)

I definitely looks pretty sweet ... I already have a Shuffle and am extremely pleased with it ...

Sony may be trying to compete with the Shuffle ... however, according to the following article, the cost of the 1 GB Sony model is double that of the Shuffle.

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/5180/


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I use my shuffle in my car, hooked up to a cassette adaptor. The fact that it doesn't have a screen is a major bonus in that use. If I don't like a song, I skip to the next. Seriously, if you want a screen, don't buy a shuffle, its not as though Apple tricks you into thinking there's a pokey, unreadable screen on the thing. The release of the shuffle has had a major affect on flash player prices. They've all come down 20-40%. Everyone should be happy about that.

For me, Apple has me virtually hooked on iTMS. I think this will be the case for many. Once you build a significant collection of iTMS songs, the tie-in is strong. Not that this is in any way a good thing, but that's what all of the on-line stores are trying to do and Apple is way ahead. So, even if the OLED display is neat, it doesn't work with the iTMS and so its not a consideration for me. My loss...... (nah).


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

How many songs do you realistically put on it? Is it the 512Mb or 1GB Shuffle? I see not having a display being a hinderance if you had a lot of songs on it... but you USE the thing. So, you'd know better.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

Macaholic, I'm with you 100% about the shuffle screen. I just don't buy Apple's explanation of "we couldn't come up with an interface that we liked, so we just got rid of the screen alltogether".

YOU'RE APPLE FOR %$*#SAKES! And you couldn't figure out an interface for it? If anyone could I would think Apple could.

At least show me what song is playing, it would bother me all day if iTunes randomly loaded my 120-song shuffle from my 6000+ song iTunes library and I didn't know what song was playing.

Anyway, I'm not as mad as I was before I saw them. They are cool and there is definately a market for them, just not me.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

OK.. let me translate. the product comes in 2 models and 4 colours each (1 model with no FM tuner, and one with), so 8 colours in total. they come in both 512mb and 1GB configurations. the unit costs around 19,800 yen, or the equivalent of about $160-170 for the 512GB. (http://www.jp.sonystyle.com/Product/Paudi/Nw-e500/Store/index.html)

If you're familiar with electronic products in Japan, you'll notice how similar Apple is moving in the same direction as Japanese products years ago. The packaging, the marketing, the style of the product... I think it all comes into why Apple is so successful in the Japanese market. As it blends in to their image of products and it's from America.... 

the battery lasts longer... the unit is better looking.. the entire display is the stick, as someone said. i think this unit will do very well in Japan. 

let's not criticize this unit only because it's not from Apple. think about what SONY has done that Apple should do better next time!


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

ehmax.. the website isn't cluttered at all if you understand the language. it's won the UK design award for the best website design of the year i believe....


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

There's too much flash in that site, howing. It's coo-coo!


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Macaholic, it's a 512 Mb shuffle and its always full (using the AutoFill option on iTunes 4.7.1). My bet is that the shuffle2 will have an OLED display (on the higher end). Apple doesn't seem to worry about saying one thing and then doing the other later on. As the capacity increases, so does the need for a screen. But 120 songs? The shuffle is simply a storage container for music (and data).

I hope Sony does well with this player (real competition is good and the iPod needs real competition, not knock-offs) but its going to be significantly more expensive than a shuffle (almost the same as a 4Gb iPod mini). At the low end of the market, price matters a lot more. 

By the way, the battery on my shuffle (and my wife's) lasts longer than 18 hours. Apple claims 12 hours.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Just to throw in my 2 cents...

The USB-no-screen-el-cheapo-MP3-keychain market has existed long before Apple threw it's gauntlet into the ring. In Asia, people don't like the full-size iPod, cause it's like carrying around a boom-box to them.

Apples Shuffle is cute.

If you're brand-blind you'll love it... but there are better players in that market segment.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

for those complaining about that one being expensive, SONY offered today a cheaper alternative.. for 10,000 yen = $110.00CAD, you can get a 1GB one with 70 hours playback and a display! it just looks like a hockey puck.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

macholic.. that's how japanese websites are! they throw tons of animation into it to look cool..  i guess we got used to it. and for one reason why i think this SONY will sell well in Japan, is because it really fits in with our culture and our overall perception of good product design. for that, it has to be two things. first, it has to be small. secondly, it has to be cute. by that, i mean colours! pink, light green, blue, yellow, etc.. the iPod mini was right on the money in that respect! Americans are not very fond of colours. they love silver.. and that whole professional look. the Japanese are totally different. American's don't mind carrying iPod photos, we do. It's heavy and it's useless to us. We can display our photos on most of our mobile phones in 2.4" SVGA displays (that's better than the one in the iPod photo mind you) 2 years even before the iPod photo rolled out. Why do you think the iPod photo is a dud in Japan?

if you're in Japan and you see the wealth of electronics in Japan. you'll start to see what you've been missing, and how much Apple is actually filling that gap and calling it "innovation".


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Well, some emperical data is on on current Apple product demand:

http://ehmac.ca/showthread.php?p=200002#post200002

iPod Shuffle's are hot-hot-hot!


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

depends on where. just because it sells well doesn't necessarily mean it's because it's the best out there. as someone pointed out, these units from SONY are likely to never fall into the hands of people outside Japan. the MP3 market is much more diverse in Japan, and Asia for that matter, because of their choices.


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## Bosco (Apr 29, 2004)

I got a Koss 256 MB MP3 player for Christmas and it has a display. I can't imagine using a player without a display. 

I was considering the Shuffle for one of my kids but the lack of a display is a deal breaker for me. I guess that's how they were able to offer it at such a low price. The 512 shuffle is 10 bucks more than my Koss. Maybe the next generation Shuffles will have one.

Is it just me or does Apple seem to be offering products with less standard features to keep the price down? It's gonna be like buying an American car. "Would you like a steering wheel with that?"


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

ice_hackey said:


> If you're brand-blind you'll love it... but there are better players in that market segment.


Depends on your definition of better. If you like to have your song information always on display or feel the need to listen to FM (not AM) radio then yes. However, in my experience of talking to people even though a player has feature Y does not mean feature Y is ever going to be used. It reminds me of "Mine is bigger then yours" syndrome (between the companies, not owners) I'd much rather having something practical.

howing - When the devices actually hit Canada and we get the real MRSP I think we can determine which ones will be better or not, but my gut instinct says that Sony's stuff will be more expensive, but they are viable alternatives if you aren't married to AAC and can stomach having to use a PC and using *shudder* ATRAC.

Apple's innovation often comes into question but what is wrong with taking existing ideas and doing it a different way or combining them in a way not thought of before? Does that not define innovation?

I do have to add though, that the addition of an OLED screen the new Sony players look slick, but I'd never buy one due to the other constraints on the player.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Bosco said:


> Is it just me or does Apple seem to be offering products with less standard features to keep the price down? It's gonna be like buying an American car. "Would you like a steering wheel with that?"


It's not you, bud.


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## Bosco (Apr 29, 2004)

Macaholic said:


> It's not you, bud.


Were you a little ticked off for having to pay extra for a KB/Mouse for your new Macmini? That got to me. That's what reminded me of the "steering wheel" option.

What's next? An extra 10 bucks for a 30 cent power cord?


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

We overlook that Apple has put some serious constraints on their product too!

You need proprietary software to load songs? ICK!
Can't copy from player to computer, out-of-the-box? ICK!

The ones in Asia are just drag and drop.. very simple.

In Hong Kong you can plug your usb player into a "POP Machine" to buy MP3s.. I'm guessing that Apple doesn't let the Shuffles work with this system - cause they want you to buy from THEIR store.

Apple are greasy!


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Well, yes and no:

Yes because I wanted the Apple Pro keyboard. No, because I wanted a non-Apple mouse 

Although Apple has cut prices on their mouse and wired keyboard, I think that they should have a rock-bottom price for them as an optional bundle along with the Mac Mini. Yes, some people will have k/m to move from old comp to mac Mini, but most of those I'll wager are PC/2. Or, they will indeed have USB stuff... or they might want to keep using the PC. And then, there are many who will hate he one-button mouse -- and no scroll-wheel.

There are so many permutations here that shipping it without a keyboard or mouse kind of logical. but they should have made a CHEAP bundle that wouldn't hurt as much if people needed it.



> What's next? An extra 10 bucks for a 30 cent power cord?


Yeah. Just like no Firewire cable with new ipods.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

ice_hackey said:


> We overlook that Apple has put some serious constraints on their product too!


Don't blame Apple alone.



> You need proprietary software to load songs? ICK!


Almost any legal acquisition of music online requires _something_ proprietary. Besides, iTunes works great!



> Can't copy from player to computer, out-of-the-box? ICK!


You think that's Apple's decision?



> The ones in Asia are just drag and drop.. very simple.


iTunes is even easier.



> In Hong Kong you can plug your usb player into a "POP Machine" to buy MP3s.. I'm guessing that Apple doesn't let the Shuffles work with this system - cause they want you to buy from THEIR store.


Dunno about the music machines, myself. Seems kind of a novelty thing to me. As for that flexibility in the first place, again don't blame just Apple.



> Apple are greasy!


No they're not (really). If Apple hadn't pushed the labels for a year and a half to go with the iTunes Music Store and the most liberal usage rights ever (remember, the labels did mount some limp attempts in online music retail before iTMS. They SUCKED) we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Blah blah blah, your name is "Macaholic".. I wouldn't expect you to understand. 

Overseas you can buy devices that are platform agnostic, support more audio formats and loading/unloading methods. Plus they are cheaper. Smaller. Better looking.

To me - this is a better option than the Apple.

As for the music-buying "novelty" I mentioned, it's called a "business model". Maybe you'll see apple steal this idea in 5 years or so?

I like some of Apple's products... but this one seems like it's late to the party. Mobile phones have better MP3 players than this now! Check out the SonyEricsson K750i or W800.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

ice_hackey said:


> Blah blah blah, your name is "Macaholic".. I wouldn't expect you to understand.


Whatever. The trends say otherwise. Don't they?


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

People _also_ buy crack instead of their groceries - it doesn't make it the wiser option.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Good one! 

Kind of the same analogy I use of people buying McDonalds burgers (PC) than the best burger run by that family business down the road (Mac) due to marketing and a domineering presence.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Bosco said:


> Were you a little ticked off for having to pay extra for a KB/Mouse for your new Macmini? That got to me.


This is a no-win for Apple.

Before: "Why does Apple force me to buy its crappy keyboard and mouse? I'm just going to toss them in a drawer and use a superior product by _______."

After: "Why does Apple force me to buy my own keyboard and mouse? So cheap!"

Lesson: you can't please everyone. I do like Macaholic's solution of offering a discounted KB+mouse bundle for Mac mini buyers, but I don't see it happening: prices for these items are already quite a bit lower than before.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Bajan said:


> Yawn.....I'll stick to the iPod.


Agreed. My 3G iPod will suit me just fine. 

* Back on topic, that thing looks _ugly_ compared to the iPod Shuffle.


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## yatko (Oct 9, 2004)

My prayers have been answered (weird for an atheist guy )

Although I would rather have a shuffle with an OLED display, this jean pocketable (in summer where do you put/hide your MP3 player, right?) Sonys will do just fine.


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## ArtificiaLard (Feb 8, 2005)

Meh... I dunno, it just doesn't look right to me at all. I'm no fan of the shuffle, but at least it boasts a clear minimalist look that pretty much anyone can like. I usually like Sony designs but this looks a bit 'over-designed' if anyone knows what I mean. 

I agree with ice hackey. The flash MP3 player has been prevalent outside of North America for a very long time. I admire Apple's marketing prowess in the iPod Shuffle, but the product itself is fairly unimpressive, except for the obscene demand it garners at the moment.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

If it had mp3 it would be a serious contender...

I've been using my shuffle for 2 months now and it is as pleasurable as on day one. I particularly enjoy it when skiing...


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Moscool said:


> If it had mp3 it would be a serious contender...
> 
> I've been using my shuffle for 2 months now and it is as pleasurable as on day one. I particularly enjoy it when skiing...


It does play MP3. it's just that its secue media format is their ATRAC thing.

Again, I think that the design and shape of the thing aint too good -- but that display technology? WAY cool!


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

icehackey, i agree with you completely. you're the only one that understands, i think, completely what i'm trying to get at here. maybe we're both from asia. after spending a great deal of time (my half-family's in HK) in Hong Kong, i was so amazed at their vending machines were you could buy songs with your Octopus pre-paid card (or mobile phone now in Japan) and just stick your MP3 player inside. The song could be loaded into the machine and played everywhere. I like that idea. If I paid to buy that song, why do you care where or how I play it? Would anyone care if I brought my CD to be played in anyone else's computer? Apple's iTunes has restrictions, and it's not entirely freefault from Apple. They want their music to be played solely by their iPod, don't anyone deny it. The refusal to let other players play their music downloaded from their stores is a great example, another is the refusal to play WMA files in their iPod's. it's all about turf war, and i think that's the wrong way to go. the main interest for Apple should be selling iPods, whatever they're worth, and stop it with the format war. they've lost that long ago... 

Macholic, you keep referring to statistics about trends and the hot sales of iPod's. notwithstanding the accuracy of such statistics, have you considered other countries where iPods are less popular and why? rather than indulging on the already known fact that it sells well in America. i'll say this and be the bad chap, but Western consumers aren't the brightest consumers in the world.... look at the rubbish they buy. TV's the size of sofas and mobile phones the size of a brick. they just don't have options! and part of that reason why is because the demand is so low. the average American consumer just wants cheapness. they're not interested in the quality of the product. why do you think you see so many rich people going to WalMart knowingly they could afford better? 

anyways.... i don't suppose you'd understand. but i'm telling you - many of the products that Apple is selling now, is very similar to the ones found in Asia, and particularly in Japan years ago. Case in point, the white design of their iBooks, so called revolutionary in the Western world.. hah! We've had that for years.... laptops were always white with a clear laquer layer. we also have it in pink, yellow, and light blue too.. nothing new.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

Macaholic said:


> It does play MP3. it's just that its secue media format is their ATRAC thing.
> 
> Again, I think that the design and shape of the thing aint too good -- but that display technology? WAY cool!


do you mind telling me what's wrong with the ATRAC format, other than the fact that it is secure (so is AAC, but I'm sure you won't mind that..  ), and the design fault of the E507? i'm curious.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

and the cheaper model, the E107 (one selling for $100-$120CAD) has arrived on the sony.ca website. good luck iPod.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

howing said:


> Apple's iTunes has restrictions, and it's not entirely freefault from Apple. They want their music to be played solely by their iPod, don't anyone deny it. The refusal to let other players play their music downloaded from their stores is a great example, another is the refusal to play WMA files in their iPod's. it's all about turf war, and i think that's the wrong way to go. the main interest for Apple should be selling iPods, whatever they're worth, and stop it with the format war. they've lost that long ago...


Couple of points: it's a format war versus Microsoft, and licensing fees are involved. How much would MS charge Apple to use WMA? How much are other vendors offering Apple for FairPlay? Those questions, to which neither you nor I have answers, are crucial.

Also, the digital download market is in its infancy, and Apple currently dominates it. They certainly have not yet lost this war. The only guaranteed way to lose it is to insist, forever, on leaving things as they are. Personally I'm convinced Apple has learned that lesson and will make a move at some point -- either to allow other players to play iTMS content, or to license WMA for the iPod (which means positioning such that MS begs to be let into the iPod, for free), or both. 

The question is: when is the right time for such a move? A lot of people think "two years ago" is the right answer (and I'll bet you're one of them), but I'd say it's more like "when the player market is essentially saturated and advances are merely incremental" and/or "when online music starts to be more than a blip in industry sales." Until then, I think it's strategically sound for Apple to wage its format war.

Another variable here is the Macintosh platform. Currently, protected WMA will not play on it. Microsoft and Apple can afford to keep it that way for now, but what happens if the Mac makes a serious comeback? How many times will Apple and MS have to deal with "why won't my WMA files play on my Mac?" before they have to do something? Eventually Apple and MS will have to find a way to settle the format war, and IMO Apple is correct to do what it can to build a strong position in anticipation of the arrival of that moment.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

icehackey said:


> Apple's iTunes has restrictions, and it's not entirely freefault from Apple. They want their music to be played solely by their iPod, don't anyone deny it.


iTunes has restrictions in that the purchased music uses DRM. That in and of itself is a different ball game then MP3s since MP3s are not restricted. However the point that only Apple's DRM (Fairplay) works on an iPod is valid and understandable, but why you can't do whatever you want to with a song you buy from iTMS is not entirely Apple's fault when you consider how the record companies and the general culture of the United States and dealing with technology of that nature. Asia doesn't have these problems and I suspect not having a DMCA or an RIAA helps a bit.



> the main interest for Apple should be selling iPods, whatever they're worth, and stop it with the format war. they've lost that long ago...


How do you say Apple has lost the format war? As far as I can tell iTunes is outselling WMA based stores by quite a hefty margin. Doesn't sound like they are losing a format war unless we factor in MP3s. If we factor in MP3s there is no way the DRM'd songs can compete (paid and restrcited versus generally free and unrestricted) after all MP3 has been around for longer and you don't buy a WMA or an AAC player, you buy an MP3 player that can also play those formats.

Also, AAC is not secure. AAC is the audio portion of the MPEG 4 spec, but can be combined with a system like Fairplay to make them secure. In my experience working with ATRAC has been a pain, give me an MP3 instead, at least Sony is letting their players play MP3s instead of converting everything into ATRAC.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Howing, I'm with you.

The North American consumer has limited options. Unless they buy from other markets, over the internet.

Many of my friends who come from HK generally refer to our technology stores as "museums".

Apple has a lot of great designs under their belt, but a lot of mac-fans can't see past the apple logo, if you know what I mean.


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## retrocactus (Jun 17, 2003)

ice_hackey said:


> Many of my friends who come from HK generally refer to our technology stores as "museums".


That's so true...and funny. 

Just look in any of our stores (Future Shop, Best Buy, Staples, etc) in Canada, and they are very slow to introduce new technology....not to mention look very similar from a products-they-carry standpoint. I routinely head south to get a few more options but it's never enough compared to what's available in other countries.

But it should be pointed out that while there are a lot of cool tech being developed overseas, much of it isn't made with a non-geek consumer in mind. 

I don't know if there are more geeks per capita in Japan or Korea but I doubt there are too many Japanese grandma's with vending machine filled mp3 players. My mother-in-law has an iPod mini with music from ITMS on it...and I didn't have to show her how to do anything.

I've bought lots of 'new' things via ebay or the local import shops but honestly, many of them are cool but just aren't built to last. The big brand names like Sony, Samsung, Apple and others seem to be better made than some knock off drag and drop mp3 player (Wewa for example). Granted all these companies have production issues and returns, I've always been underwelmed by the product build quality. I guess a lot of it is meant to be disposible but how often do you want to replace these items?

Just speaking from first hand experience with these types of products. Yeah, I drink the apple coolaid but I still think about where I put my money.

You also have to consider the role iTunes (or for that matter any proprietary manager) plays in the new world of large capacity mp3 players...I sure wouldn't want to drag and drop a few gigs worth of music without having some easy methods of organizing it.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

do you mean using iTunes as the means of organizing the music? if so, there are many jukeboxes out there for the PC long before iTunes was even introduced. In Japan, we use something called SonicStage, and it's virtually built into every copy of Windows we have. No one complains about it just in the same way no one complains about iTunes being in every copy of Mac OS. The format is different, yes, because it works through WMA, OMG (OpenMG), ATRAC, and ATRACplus... that alone, is much better than the MP3/AAC iTunes in terms of compatibility. What people want is compatibility. They don't want to have to worry whether their files work across platforms. Imagine if Microsoft Office was never implemented on the Mac, do you have any idea how much people would be frustrated just with AppleWorks? I still remember those days... and it's still happening today. Apple's iTunes should allow every single format to play just to build up it's consumer base, and so should the iPod. When Apple has gained a bigger share of the PC industry, then they can limit their file formats. 

Get a grip. Apple makes good products, but don't be blinded by it. It's precisely those who defend Apple at every base that makes the entire company fall to a hault. Criticism is good. It offers an excuse to improve, don't you think? I reckon if the iPod mini comes with colour display, and keeps the same price, then the SONY will be a bit behind. Although, the size does factor in for many of us who do care about "size". 

You're perfectly right about North American stores being museums. I love visiting electronics stores whenever I pass one in Tokyo or Akihabara (our electronics district), and I can spend an entire day there looking at the 8 floors of electronics. When I was in Canada, I was so turned off by Best Buy (I think..), I just went to IKEA instead. Every single piece of technology are rejects from Asia.... I don't want to sound extreme, but it's quite true. Even if the technology is still around in Asia and is available in North America, there's always a 30% markup excluding your infamous 15% tax. 

Don't get me wrong about those cheap knock-off mp3 players... those have a totally separate market from the SONY we're debating about. The SONY is clearly headed towards another market... one where product design/image/size all matter. the cheap knock-off's are where price matters exclusively. we laugh that these are the only products that will ever make it to North America - given it's low price and how much better it is compared with what North Americans have.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

howing said:


> Macholic, you keep referring to statistics about trends and the hot sales of iPod's. notwithstanding the accuracy of such statistics, have you considered other countries where iPods are less popular and why? rather than indulging on the already known fact that it sells well in America.


Yeah. It's selling great in Europe, too.

As for Japan, it looks like the iPod did extremely well last year:

_"advance orders made Apple Computer's iPod mini the top-selling portable player three weeks before its July 24 release. *It still is (as of late November)*... (Sony's) operating profit from electronics, which account for about two-thirds of all sales, fell 83 percent to $70 million. Sales slipped 2.5 percent to $12 billion"_

And this sample for a publication called "Japan Consuming" has a little teaser headline (remember that this is a sample page) at the bottom of the page that says "iPod Japan's top brand". This sample page is dated January, 2005.

It's too early to tell how the Shuffle is doing, but for you to say "good luck iPod" -- as if *APPLE* will need it -- is absolutely _deranged_. It's SONY that needs the luck... plus a wing AND a prayer. Even at this early a stage, however, Wall Street _thinks_ that it'll be a good year for Apple:

Piper Jaffrey says: _"Demand for key Apple products ahead of expectations"_
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=941

Banc of America says: _"FY05 sales estimate for the company's iPod Shuffle product has been raised from 4.4 million to 5 million units"_ (they also think that Mac mini sales projctions should actually be 900,000 units for 2005 instead of the original thinking of 305,000 units:
http://www.newratings.com/analyst_news/article_710435.html

Also, refer to this article:
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501040913-692948,00.html
_("the iPod has quickly become Japan's most coveted portable music player")_

And this Google cache (hope that URL works) at the bottom of the page speaks of the japanese electronics firms challenges, how the mainland and South Korean makers are trying to beat _them_ down and how they're seemingly unable to take the iPod down.

I don't think that it will always be easy for Apple in in the Pacific Rim, but for you to try and float some crap that I'm using a narrow view about iPod's success and telegraphing it onto the Pacific Rim is LUDICROUS (_nobody_ can Google data for an argument like I can. _nobody_  ). So far the data says it all _"Apple's three iPods - the ¥26,000 mini, which stores 1,000 songs, and the larger 20-gigabyte and 40-gigabyte models - rank first, second and fifth respectively by sales for digital players in Japan, according to Gfk Marketing"_).



> anyways.... i don't suppose you'd understand. but i'm telling you - many of the products that Apple is selling now, is very similar to the ones found in Asia, and particularly in Japan years ago. Case in point, the white design of their iBooks, so called revolutionary in the Western world.. hah! We've had that for years.... laptops were always white with a clear laquer layer. we also have it in pink, yellow, and light blue too.. nothing new.


No one said that Apple invented the colour white. They also were not the first to release flash or disk-based portable music players, nor were they the first to try legal online music distribution. Seems they did _something_ right to cause such a paradigm shift, though. And the thing they did right has little to do with esthetics; it's ease of use is the issue, from online pit-of-sale through the jukebox down to the portable device, itself. Or... could it all be some kind of fluke?

As for ATRAC, it's the point that there's already one MAJOR DRM file format (secure AAC), with a MAJOR player pushing their own into wide use (MS's Janus). Real, ATRAC and any others are going to be casualties of a two sided war. It's nothing personal against Sony. it just makes sense. If I were Sony, I would have either tried to get a licensing deal with Apple for secure AAC (impossible -- and I think Apple is STUPID for not allowing other online _retailers_ to sell secure AAC), or license Janus from Microsoft. Anybody thinking that going it alone with [a]a third[/i] secure file format in light of the market is doomed.

As for the look of the new Sony device (covering all of your TARGETED questions to me), it's subjective. I think its headphone socket is unwieldily to the design (it looks like a perfume bottle with A BOLT on top of it -- which would be appeal to some people) and the buttons are too small (that will appeal to nobody). As I've stated, I do like the display, however, and I HAVE SAID in the past that Apple's no-display design decision was a bad one. They'll still sell boatloads of Shuffles, because -- like Microsoft in computers -- Apple commands a tremendous amount of public mind-share for portable and online music and can ride it. Is the iPod Shuffle the perfect flash-based player? I don't think so. Does it look better than Sony's? _I personally_ think so. If you have a problem with my sense of taste, tough!

And regarding your last post, iTunes wasn't the first for Windows of course... and it wasn't first for the Mac userbase either. And there are still several options on both platforms besides iTunes. When it comes to accessing the online store, however, you'd have to use iTunes -- just like you have to use only a Janus-compatible client app. And correct me if I'm wrong, but does not only Sony use ATRAC format? If so, is that not as proprietary as secure AAC? At least Sony is now including MP3 compatibility with their players. Come on; you have to admit that this was a very short-sighted policy of theirs.

So, now that I have addressed all of your concerns for my opinion, why don't you just back the hell off. Okay?


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Howing - Why is ATRAC such a great codec since you keep mentioning it? After all they made it for their MiniDisc players (superb idea but I never found the idea of having the lawyers insist to restrict the songs with that portion of ATRAC a good point), they had it part of their "MP3" players which recently were finally allowed to actually play MP3s natively instead of being changed.

No one is saying that Asia doesn't have a commanding lead in what you can do with electronics, but the difference in culture combined with different market types make a big difference. Just because one is successful in one does not make it successful in another. The iPod is simple to use and compared to other players bare bones. You can get more from other manufacturer's but are you going to use the features and does it make the device more useful? Realistically instead of theoretically is huge, but often not seen. That's why the iPod shuffle can actually be a worthwhile product is because of the reality how some people use MP3 players.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

Macholic, your ignorance will never cease to amuse me. i'm so tempted to say honestly how ridiculous you are, but i won't go as low as you and let you beat me with experience. stay where you are, because i guess apple needs people like you in rough times. 

anyway, the atrac is not a bad alternative, that's all i'm saying. i never said once whichever file format is better than the other. atracplus (the newer version of atrac) file sizes are smaller and the quality isn't bad. it's what we got used to using for years now after the MD was released almost 8 years ago? we just kept using it.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

let me tell you something. the majority of people who buy iPods in Japan isn't because it's ease of use. grandma's can use sophisticated ionic steam-ovens for cooking that you'll never even see beyond Japan because of it's apparent "difficulty" in use. people buy iPod's because they're from Apple, an American company. We're so brand aware sometimes that we believe that foreign things (good enough to make it in Japan anyway) must be better than what we already have. there are cheaper, cuter, and more functional alternatives than the iPod. the only thing that's missing is the "Designed in California" logo at the back. Trust me.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

My 2 cents.

i'm no friends of Americans, but the Japanese can vite me. They make great stuff though, and i am a sony fan before an apple fan. 

And Macaholic knows a lot of stuff.

So what am i saying? 
nothing, as per usual.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Ignorance? I spend thirty minutes doing that post, researching my facts and you call that "ignorant"? Yeah. All those journalists, researchers and others _I REFERENCED_... all a buncha Apple humping ignoramuses. Right? Poor Sony; such a conspiracy against them









Meanwhile, all I've heard out of YOU is nothing but subjective talk. Sorry stranger, I've no idea as to your credentials to take your opinions seriously. So go foist them elsewhere. I don't think any ONE company will topple Apple's position. It'll possibly be several companies, all under the "Plays For Sure" banner -- EXACTLY where Sony should have gone to instead of stubbornly sticking to their own "niche" file format. And that's with Apple doing nothing about it. But "good luck Apple", you say? ROTLMFAO!



> let me tell you something. the majority of people who buy iPods in Japan isn't because it's ease of use. grandma's can use sophisticated ionic steam-ovens for cooking that you'll never even see beyond Japan because of it's apparent "difficulty" in use.


SO?! I can use Windows even though it's tougher (actually, I do -- every time I have to fix my sister's PC). I can put all my music into OGG vorbis if I wanted to. There are manyn things that I am technically knowledgable to dothat are MORE difficult than using a Mac. But _iPod/iTunes/iTMS is_ easier to use. Ease of use is _the ultimate goal_ for any technology. But in fact, I've not said anything complimentary about the Shuffle's functionality in this thread being better than the Sony ones. All I've said is that I don't like the look of it but LOVE the display and I don't like the secure ATRAC and that, by virtue of Sony's GLOBAL numbers when compared to Apple's GLOBAL numbers, I would have dumped secure ATRAC and gone Janus if I were Sony.

And you know what? WHY THE **** ARE YOU HASSLING ME? There are other guys in this thread who have been pissing on your Sony device. I have complimented the Sony devices display. I also have CRITICIZED the Shuffle for NOT having a display, and I'm THE ONLY GUY IN THIS THREAD who actually does some ****ing LEGWORK to back up his arguments. Now, unless you're going to get off your lazy virtual ass and offer up some form of "proof" behind your spewings and insults, SHUT UP.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

howing said:


> Trust me.


I see no reason to do that. You've offered opinions and nothing more.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

LOL! Just going back over the posts in this thread. You can jump on a half dozen otehr guys who simply wrinkled their nose and said "I don't like it" and that it'll fail and they didn't offer anything to back up their argument. GO BUG THEM. And reread my posts criticising Apple in this thread, _please_. but while I'm here, I couldn't help but be struck by your own self-denial:



> macholic.. that's how japanese websites are! they throw tons of animation into it to look cool.. i guess we got used to it. and for one reason why i think this SONY will sell well in Japan, is because it really fits in with our culture and our overall perception of good product design. for that, it has to be two things. first, it has to be small. secondly, it has to be cute. by that, i *--SNIP--*


So... lemme get this straight: you're saying that "you Japanese" have a perception of good product design (and wasn't that a lovely racial slur you made about North American intelligence)... and yet that flash bloated POS website of Sony's gets your approval beacuase all those moving things are "cool"? So, "busy" is cool. Right? "Gadgetty" is cool. Is that it? BULL! Simplicity and elegence is cool. "Cool" is not being so loud as to actualy flat-out say, "Hey everybody! I'm COOOOL." This is why I think that Apple's execution from iTMS thru to iTunes app to the iPod is COOL. It is easy, attractive, elegant, fast, dependable -- AND functional (aside from the Shuffle no display -- as i have said a million times).

THAT's what cool is.

Maybe -- some day -- when this dawns on you, you'll realize just how UNCOOL your TV shows are  (touché)


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

You guys are talking about two different things.. Macaholic is attached to the sales figures, howing is concerned that there are better options.

I think you're both right. No need for an eFight about it.

The way you guys talk about it - it's like you own the company or something. Sheesh.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Well here's the thing, ice_hackey: if it wasn't for the ATRAC format being the only secure format for Sony, it would be a better option than what it is currently. I have complimented this device's display and criticised Apple's (and other things that they're leaving out of the iPod and mac Mini lines). And I'm not JUST talking sales figures; I see the MS Janus format as _THE_ serious contender to Apple's position. Current and projected figures look extremely strong for Apple, but I in NO WAY think that it'll always be like that. but will they get down below 20%? Worst case scenario? That, I doubt.


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Like everyone I know - I use MP3 exclusively and won't likely ever play an AAC or ATRAC file. Those are a non-issue as far as most people are concerned.

I like the Sony display and I like their headphones too.
The NW-E507 is cooler than the Shuffle - period.

I could care less about Apple's market-share. It's just not interesting to me.


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## howing (Nov 14, 2003)

word.
i only play mp3 files as well, so both players are equally suited. however, being honest and with money to spare, i'd opt for the SONY.

oh please spare me your affection for apple macoholic, the only reason why i'm replying to your comments is because your comments are worth even more discussion. take that for whatever it is, and there was absolutely NO intention of any racial slur whatsoever. if you interpreted that as in anyway racist, i have no comment. i made the comment about the ionic microwave because someone said iPod's ease of use was the main selling factor, and that even their grandma has music purchased through the ITMS on their iPod's, that's it. 

and a word about the tv shows.. you don't see us downloading American shows with Japanese subtitles, or buying rights to our shows to have American versions do you (e.g. Iron Chef America)? 

anything apple makes will make you happy.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Howling, 

What bitrate are your mp3s?


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> there was absolutely NO intention of any racial slur whatsoever.


sorry bud. reread your post. you did insult n. american intelligence. however, as a witness to the decline of western civilisation i can't disagree with you ...

oh yeah, i think the sony thing and the apple shuffle both suck, but if sony ditched atrac, it would suck less, although it is ugly. the interface and the buttons seem jumbled up, aesthetically.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Ice hackey said:



> Apple's market-share. It's just not interesting to me


Well, for howing to say "good luck Apple", marketshare comes into play.

And howing? 



> you don't see us downloading American shows with Japanese subtitles, or buying rights to our shows to have American versions do you (e.g. Iron Chef America)?


No. They get dubbed into Japanese instead. And Iron Chef?? Yeah. Whatever. And you used the term, "word". Aint that a "black thing", or something? And why do all those American movie stars get hired for your TV commercials? (commercials they wouldn't be caught dead doing here). Face it: Japan loves American popular culture. Or, you can't avoid it (like we can't).

Anyway, we've strayed off course.

You ignore my points (including my criticisms of Apple). You offer nothing of substance in return. You're a waste of bandwidth. Your attempts to paint me as a blind Mac zealot are tiresome. I'm a _well read_ Mac zealot. There's a difference


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

This thread is getting increasingly out of hand, if things continue on the track they are going on, I will be closing the thread.

First of all, even though we are trying to discuss the points of Sony vs. the iPod shuffle the insults are not welcome. There is a difference in culture but this does not make one better then the other, just different.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

FWIW, I use Sony earbuds with my iPod


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## farfisa (Nov 5, 2003)

Woah, you guys still here?


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

And I got a great Sony ghetto blaster


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## Repeater04 (Nov 29, 2004)

I second that.

Just Think Different!


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

And hey! I got a Sony stereo, too!









Hmmm... maybe I'm a Sony zealot and I don't know it?









Actually, when my Mac Mini (FINALLY) gets here, it'll become the stereo, upstairs... and I use my iPod with the Sony blaster via it's line-in... so...

hmm...









Forget it. I'll stick with the Mac zealot thing.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

This thread should die, but I came across some very pertinent articles:

"Sony Exec Admits Mistakes" 

"Sony in Hot Pursuit of iPod" 

"Can Sony Get Its Mojo Back?"

What I find of particular interest is that, for the first time in Sony's history, a non-Japanese executive has been given the CEO chair in order to pull the company out of the ditch. It seems that Steve Jobs was too busy 

Ladies and gents, meet Sir Howard Stringer, CEO of Sony:












Who said this:

_"Incoming Sony CEO Howard Stringer told reporters the company under his leadership would be 'cool again'. ”_ (Read: find Sony's mojo).

The bottom line, howing, is that Sony doesn't seem to see the situation as you do... and they don't even consider themselves cool these days. I'll bet that they should be able to turn it around... or at least that they surely have _the capability_ to do so. What they need is proper guidance and vision from stem to stern. Sony, like Apple once upon a time, got blinded and lost sight of the ball. Years later, Apple got it back. Maybe Sony can do it, too?

Good luck, Sony.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Seems the New York Times wishes Sony luck as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/business/worldbusiness/13digi.html?oref=login


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## ice_hackey (Aug 13, 2004)

Hey Macaholic... what are you some kinda google addict?


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

http://www.macsurfer.com

and yes: Google for additional resource gathering. butt macsurfer is a great portal for mac and related info.


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