# Home renovation thread



## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi gang,

How about a home renovation thread on here? Reason I ask is, we're about to undertake major renovations to our small bungalow in Cliffside, Scarborough [Warden & Kingston Rds] by adding a second storey.

The house is just 21 x 33, two bedroom, with a smallish galley-style kitchen and barely usable dining area [once a table is in there, no room for chairs]. Living room and main bedroom are sizable but the space is not laid out as we would like. It *is* a 1940s house after all.

We bought in 1995 and by 2000 had replaced almost all of the old walls, insulated and upgraded the electrical and plumbing. I just completed the basement after two years off and on working on it. Did almost all of it myself, hiring an electrician for the new breaker panel installation.

Our two girls, 7 and 9, share the smaller of the two bedrooms, with a bunk bed. They are really looking forward to their own rooms.

We are planning an open concept living area on the main floor, with just a half height wall at the entrance to separate the front room, and slightly enlarging the ground floor bathroom by taking the tub out, leaving more floorspace.

The plans were done this spring, we received our permit last week, we've lined up a great contractor who has done several houses in our area and everyone speaks well of him, and we've submitted our plans to Rona for quoting on the lumber and supplies. My wife did a lot of planning of her own, adjusting the architect's drawings of "what needs to go where" with "how I want it done" to reach a middle ground that will pass inspection.

All going well, if the lumber is delivered in 3 weeks, the builder will do the work the first or second week of July.

Will keep you posted. I'm working out how to get my digital cam set up across the street for the 3-4 days of major framing work to be captured on time lapse. Now, *that* would be a cool thing to have.

It's exciting I'll tell ya - YAHOO!!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacAndy, sounds like a grand plan. Hopefully, your marriage is strong and you children are patient. The only advice I shall share with you is "expect the unexpected" and put away 10% above and beyond what you plan to spend for emergency situations.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Marriage has survived all of the renovations so far. Kids are easy to please and they know what awaits them - rooms the size of our main bedroom now. As for funds, we have a line of credit that is almost double the estimate, so we're OK in that dept. too. I plan to do all of the electrical and drywalling, saving about $12,000. We're putting what we save here into better windows and bathroom.

Don't worry - I've got it all plannnnnnnned out.

Stay tuned for posts when the fun begins! ;-)


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacAndy, re your contention that "Don't worry - I've got it all plannnnnnnned out", there is an old Yiddish saying that goes something like this -- "When man plans, God laughs". Bon chance, mon ami.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"We're putting what we save here into better windows and bathroom." This is VERY smart. Along with the kitchen, this helps to add value to a home.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Good luck with the reno. Since you have already done work on the house, you won't be surprised when issues pop up. Obviously you are planning on moving out for a few months, be ready for daily visits to the site in addition to your regular schedule.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

we bought our house here in TO 5 years ago. Since I gutted the main floor, and made it open concept with exposed brick, and new solid oak floors. Currently we are just finishing a complete gut of the kitchen and rebuild, the granite tops are coming next week, and the bathroom upstairs was gutted and that'll be done in a few weeks. 

Complete insanity for anyone living in the middle of it.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Actually, the framing takes 3-4 days, and that's not a dream I had, they've done house in our area. And *no* it's not Second Storey Additions - they were far to expensive and I hear they rush things and are crap.

There shouldn't be any major surprises since, yes, I've done all the renos so far. Sad to see my new[er] ceilings come out, but all in the name of *really* new, and higher, ceilings. Since I did all of the electrical, I know where everything is. Once I cut the power to the overheads, we can continue to use the baseboard electrical. And I'll be running two lines up to the new level just for the workmen. The newer circuit panel has plenty of open spaces.

The basement is renovated, so we *could* survive a week in there though it might be too dusty. The entrance is easily blocked to help that. But, our neighbour across the street is away most of July and my brother is around the corner, so if we have to go running, screaming for the exits, we have places to go.

Once the new ceiling/floor is in place, the main floor is usable again within a few days.

Again, I have it all plannnnnnnned. Now sit back and laugh when I report on the actual events!


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

groovetube said:


> we bought our house here in TO 5 years ago. Since I gutted the main floor, and made it open concept with exposed brick, and new solid oak floors. Currently we are just finishing a complete gut of the kitchen and rebuild, the granite tops are coming next week, and the bathroom upstairs was gutted and that'll be done in a few weeks.
> 
> Complete insanity for anyone living in the middle of it.


Yes, but ain't it fun too? Congrats on the renos, you must post some pics.

A house just south of us on Warden, similar to ours, with a similar new roof design, just went on the market for $499K. Holy smokes.

We plan to stay in the area for at least another 10-15 years, until the girls move out. Though, kids tend to stay a lot longer these days don't they?! ;-)


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Nice way to spend the summer...and your kids education fund.  

I'm going a major reno right now. This weekend will be spent installing 800sq ft of hardwood flooring, so I'm getting close to finishing the second and third floor. My back will feel it on Monday. LOL!

I'm recording it for posterity and putting it together as a web diary. Not much there yet some preconstruction photos and week one photos.

http://www.ikarl.com/


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

This seems to be the year for renos!  We are going to have the crawlspace under our kitchen excavated, and turned into a usable basement, with direct access to the outside. We're also pulling an old porch off the side, and having a wrap around verandah built to match the nearly century-old character of the front part of the house. Thank goodness for a generous father-in-law! :clap: 

We're still working on the timing, but I hope to have it all done by the end of the summer by a local contractor who has a really good reputation. I've seen some of their work, and it is excellent!

Can't wait for the start....


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

i hope it all goes well for you MacAndy, let's just hope the unexpected "issues" are minor.

As someone who has completely renovated two houses now (first one was built in the 1850's and had gas lights hidden in the walls as well as knob and tube wiring and a gravity furnace) I'm fairly certain there will be a few surprises, but by the sounds of it nothing big since you've already done most of the big stuff. i can commiserate with you about the new ceilings being ripped out. i finally finished the siding on my house, and just replaced the roof and now my wife says we should put a second storey above the garage - Yikes.

life is an adventure.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

Damn - you guys can GET contractors?
The construction industry is so hot around here that if you can even find a crew willing to do a "small" job, you risk them not showing up , because someone else offered them $5 an hour more to take their job.

Don't underestimate the strain of living in a construction zone, especially for kids whose space and privacy are being invaded. We rented a RV and parked it in the driveway as the kids' temporary 'home' while the worst of the ground floor work was being done.


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

No contractors here, doing it all myself. it takes a little longer sure, but it is WAY cheaper.


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## Ena (Feb 7, 2005)

Speaking of the unexpected when renovating. I was putting in built-in shelving in a clothes closet and ended up having to put up new drywall. The funny thing was that tucked away were some pretty smutty books. The previous owner of the house had been a fairly high up minister in a church.

Have been doing reno's for years. At least now when I go into a lumber yard the clerks don't serve me last and then ask me if I'm sure that's what my husband wanted. Sorry for the derail


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

kps said:


> Nice way to spend the summer...and your kids education fund.
> 
> I'm going a major reno right now. This weekend will be spent installing 800sq ft of hardwood flooring, so I'm getting close to finishing the second and third floor. My back will feel it on Monday. LOL!
> 
> ...


Great, thanks for posting kps. I too will be looking at hardwood flooring, but the stuff in my price range looks like colour laser-copied wood pattern on particle board! It has come down in price in the past few years. But will likely bite the bullet and end up spending $3-4 sq. ft instead of under $2 for the pseudo-wood stuff.

We'll have our quote from the contractor soon and the quote from Rona early next week. Then the fun begins...

"Money, spending money, spending lots and lots of money, MONEEEEEEY" - to the tune of Letterman's "Letters, we get letters..."


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Wow, just saw all of the other posts *after* kps' that I replied to.

I doubt there will be any big surprises, simply because I've already gone through the house. I am, in fact, demolishing walls I put up 8-10 years ago. But those were done on the cheap, by myself, on strapping that was nailed to the double-bricked walls. Now, we're going to frame it with studs, properly, and have real insulation, not foamboard [that's all that would fit].

Now, with the second storey and all of the inspection that goes with it, I will have to do things by the book. And *that* I have absolutely no problem with. Though the contractor already pointed out our back deck needs a higher railing! The inspector will be inspecting E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

We have had an energy efficiency evaluation done on the house. Anyone who is doing major renos to a house that hasn't been upgraded since the mid-70s should have this done. The standards from about 1978 are much higher, more stringent. But that doesn't preclude someone like me just putting up drywall against barely-insulated walls - the majority of mistakes are done by do-it-yourselfers. When the work is done, they run the evaluation again and determine what rebate you can get from the government. A $70K renovation and the government *might* give you $1,000 back. Sheesh.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Ena said:


> Speaking of the unexpected when renovating. I was putting in built-in shelving in a clothes closet and ended up having to put up new drywall. The funny thing was that tucked away were some pretty smutty books. The previous owner of the house had been a fairly high up minister in a church.
> 
> Have been doing reno's for years. At least now when I go into a lumber yard the clerks don't serve me last and then ask me if I'm sure that's what my husband wanted. Sorry for the derail


Alas, the only thing I found when tearing out previously-done renos was an old Labatts blue beer can in the basement washroom ceiling. It spoke volumes as to the quality of the work and the labourers.

While doing my brother's house around the corner an old pack of ciggies dropped to the floor. It contained two hits of something - something I know not of. ;-)


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

My husband and I get talking about renovations to our house and it goes from 'new carpet in the family room' to 'throw a stick of dynamite in middle of the room, close the door, and run away' (for the kitchen) to (my preference) 'drive a D-9 CAT through the whole thing' in about 15 minutes. (The house has a lot of issues - not enough electrical outlets, single pane windows, floors that aren't level, ceilings that droop, small bedrooms, etc., etc., etc.. But the lot is 1/2 acre, level, well treed, and it's close to stuff. So here we stay...)

I wouldn't mind hiring a contractor to do the whole thing while I'm in Mexico, or something, but I don't cope well with construction debris. And finding a good contractor here is impossible. Even getting an electrician to upgrade the electrical service took months and months of waiting - they're just too busy with new construction to want to bother with a 'one day' job. *sigh*


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Don't go too cheap on the hardwood, you can get decent stuff for under $5, but the real cheap stuff is hard to work with and poor quality. Hardwood comes in several grades. The "top-of-the-line" graded stuff is just too good...it actually looks fake. LOL! Go for a lower grade, even two grades down and your floor will have a bit of character and still look good. Don't go for the "tavern" grade stuff.

I got mine from Brampton Hardwood Flooring. It's natural finish red oak, which the manufacturer calls "Traditional" grade. It has some small knots and some mineral streaking, but overall the floor looks good. Since I'm doing it myself, I'll open many boxes and hand pick the planks for highly visible areas.

You must check around the many suppliers and get quotes based on volume (square footage). 

BTW, added some more picks...week 2 and 3.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

kps said:


> Don't go too cheap on the hardwood


I'm 100% in agreement on that!

I would go with 3/4" site finished hardwood if at all possible. It looks good, and if it gets damaged it can be refinished several times. With any car at all it will easily last 50 years or more.

This is one area where the skill of the installers makes a big difference, especially sanding with a drum sander which is a bit of an art.

Good luck with you renos. I've done a number of renos over the years, but always working within four walls -- nothing as ambitious as adding a second story!


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

don't discount wood laminate flooring entirely, it does have it's uses.

we had really old hardwood in our last "century" home and we refinished it to get rid of some staining and scratches. it looked really nice, except for the areas where the dogs would turn when running through the house. those areas got pretty scratched up pretty fast. in our current house, we went with a really good quality laminate and even right in front of the main entrance where all the traffic is and the dogs are constantly running and turning, it still looks like new after almost 10 years. for us the laminate is great in this location.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Laminate is okay for some applications, but it also has it's share of issues. Some low cost laminates have porous fiber backing which will easily absorb spilled liquids causing the floor to warp, buckle and damage the seams. Laminates will scratch and dropped objects can chip the surface. There have also been reports of enviromental emissions from such flooring causing issues for people with sensitivities. Final point: you can't refinish the floor later, you can't change it's colour with a stain and it may not be solid enough if you don't use an adequate sub-floor--think 3/4" T&G plywood on top of the existing 1940's subfloor. 

Speaking of sub-floors, in my house it's full 4/4 T&G pine planks, which I sanded down using a rented flooring sander to level it off and smooth it out, eliminating the need for an additional plywood overlay before the 3/4" hardwood goes down. I also screwed it down to eliminate any squeaks --into the joists every 16", one or two screws per plank. About 1500 screws for the 550 sq feet of living space.

Talk to your contractor or a flooring guy to determine if you need a new subfloor before you spend the money.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

thatcomputerguy said:


> don't discount wood laminate flooring entirely, it does have it's uses.


Agreed - all floor coverings have their place.

Something like natural hardwood can be a "permanent" part of the house, so I wouldn't cut corners on this. Other materials, like carpet, that you expect to change in a few years due to wear and tear, change of colour, etc. can be a little cheaper if, like most of us, you need to live within a budget.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi gang,

Very interested in the thread on hardwood flooring, as I will be venturing down this path in the near future. My attitude, as with pretty much everything else is, don't go cheap but don't overdo it either. I really don't want hardwood floors that look like a bowling alley. Someone did a house just south of us with glass-like hardwood and quite frankly I think it's a cold and inhospitable look.

So it likely won't be laminate but I don't think it'll be more than $4 sq/ft either because that's just out of our price range.

I can't wait to strip all the old flooring and fasten down the planks and remove any and all squeaks. That's the one thing right now that drives me nuts.

Can't sneak in late after an all-nighter ;-)


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Here are pictures of our floor as of this morning (Sunday). Getting ready for the hard parts, getting close to the wall where the flooring nailer can't fit. LOL!

Anyway, it gives you an idea of the natural finish red oak, which is a grade down from "select & better". No 'bowling alley" look, instead a random order of natural wood. You still put some really 'bad' pieces aside and save them for the closets.

In some pictures you can see the rough sanded subfloor including spots with floor leveler. A good prepjob makes a big difference.

Back breaking work, if you're not used to it, but well worth it.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hey kps, looking great. That wood looks perfectly fine, almost bowling-alleyish without the cost, right? I am salivating at the idea of being able to do my best Tom "Risky Business" Cruise impersonation *without* splintering my feet!

Where did you buy and how much? I'm probably 3-4 months away from installing hardwood. We'll no doubt look at anything and everything before we settle on the final choice.

Heating specialist arrived this morning, I am told, to pick up the plans to get the drawings done. Installation can't proceed until the plans are approved. My wife has decided to move the furnace further back, almost to the middle of the house, where I had installed two doors as access to my *workshop*. This is probably a good move because my brother's furnace, almost identical house just two blocks away, has the furnace in the middle and the bathroom and bedrooms are much warmer because of it.

We hope to have the contractor and Rona quotes momentarily.

Then, I will decide if this is going to kill me or not... ;-)


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

It *will* kill you...but keep telling yourself it's all worth it. Whatever the quote is, tack on another 20-30%.  

I got the hardwood at Brampton Flooring (Bramalea rd north of Steeles) for $4.74 sq/ft. Installations generally run $2.50 per sq/ft. Since I have most of the tools, it was worth doing myself, but as I said earlier, it's back breaking work. I have no problem saving over $3000 for the total installation. Window and base trim is also my deal, and that's where that big 12" DeWalt is going to shine.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi gang,

Well, I bring great news... we got the Rona quote and boy am I astounded. Based on other projects we had heard about, and the fact that we are doing a custom roof cut on the front - sloping with *two* dormers - we had guesstimated the supplies in an around $30K. I was surpringly well over, by about $10K. Rona quoted the entire project, including siding and shingles [though we are not likely ordering these from them] and complete, with taxes and delivery - $24K. So, take out the roofing and siding and we're under $20K.

Very pleasant news for us, the project is within budget on the very first quote.

Hope to discuss the Rona quote with the contractor this evening and get firm pricing on everything he is doing. So far I only have a verbal "$20/sq.ft. for framing." That's about $12.5K for the second storey - 640sq.ft x $20/sq.ft. Since I am gutting the main floor but it is double-bricked, I am hoping the framing of the main floor is much less.

Will keep you posted.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

I advise anybody proceeding with a renovation to watch this movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040613/


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> Hey kps, looking great. That wood looks perfectly fine, almost bowling-alleyish without the cost, right?


That *is* a nice looking floor kps!

I believe one of the differences between the medium good grades and select grade is the length of the pieces of wood. The medium good grades approach "bowling-alleyish", but the pieces are relatively short, select grade has longer pieces.

Cottage grade is cheapest, but a bit "rustic" looking, with lots of flaws in the wood.


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

If anyone is looking for professional tile or painting give me a shout. I am in Guelph and my # is 519-826-8118. Any jobs I get from ehmac I will donate 5% to ehmac for referrals from ehmac and will paypal ehmac direct. My temp web site...

http://web.mac.com/cartesiantandp/iWeb/cartesiantandp/Home.html

Ehmax, if this is against the rules please let me know....Mark Trites


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

This is a great thread. 

I'll be renovating this 100 year-old, Ottawa house until I die  , but it's fun to be in an historic part of the nation's capitol and to imagine all of the history that has gone on around this place.
The latest: We got a bricklayer for a small addition (mudroom), after only 4 months of looking!
I'm waiting for him to finish the job. As he said, breathlessly, "I'll get back when I can. I don't know when that will be." I thanked him profusely.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

A small update...

Contractor who said he might have an opening in July is now booked until September, but that's fine, we don't want to rush it.

Heating guy said his planner [guy who draws up the plans] suffered a stroke and is out of action. Found another heating planner, hopefully coming on Monday.

We'll be using most of July to start disassembly and packing. We're on holiday in the middle of August. So September is probably just right anyways. I'm just hoping *his* September isn't September 30th and his *3-4 days* work isn't *3-4* weeks. I don't want to be doing this into November.

Will keep you posted.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

ditto on not using cheaper hardwood. It isn't worth the small savings. We had satin finish flooring installed select and better it looks great. There's another kind made in Quebec that looks great I believe home depot carries it as do others. Don't use Bruce. That stuff is crap in comparison, the installers were telling me they feel bad installing that horror story of flooring.
My kitchen is close to done, backsplash, paint, and a few baseboards and we're done!
The bathroom is in progress.


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## KreenysMac (Aug 23, 2005)

*Alternative(s) to Hardwood*

Been reading this thread ... I helped my parents out on their last reno. They put in this vinyl flooring, that unless you bend down and touch it, looks exactly like wood. It's great stuff and lasts forever -- and is pretty much the same price as a good-quality hardwood (not laminate). And the best thing - none of the warping issues of hardwood, easy cleanup, and since the colour goes all the way thru, any damage is TOTALLY un-noticable. They absolutely love it and have been recommending it to all their friends. I've been seeing it pop up all over the place, especially in commerical/retail places (The Bay @ Polo Park in Wpg has it).

My fiancee's family put cork in their kitchen reno -- and it's also amazing. I personally *hate* tile and really hard floors in the kitchen, it's amazingly tiring if you spend a lot of time working in a kitchen. The cork floors have just that *little* bit of give that makes all the difference on my knees when I'm over there helping out - like washing the good silverware and dishes by hand. Tile may look good, but try spending an hour on your feet cooking dinner - OUCH! (unless I wear my comfy shoes indoors)

Another thing if you're doing a kitchen - under-mounted sinks are a **MUST**! You wipe the counters straight into the sink and voila! No annoying crumbs stuck in the sink lip. My current apt doesn't have one, and I miss my parents under-mount like there's no tomorrow.

-- Kristine


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

Well, my project is getting started. We got our drawings done, and the final permits will come next week. Demolition starts Monday morning! :clap: 

Of course, I now HAVE to spend this weekend emptying out the porch before it comes down.  It'll be hot, but at least there's no rain forecast!


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

KreenysMac said:


> And the best thing - none of the warping issues of hardwood, easy cleanup, and since the colour goes all the way thru, any damage is TOTALLY un-noticable.


I've never heard of any warping issues with good quality 3/4" hardwood that was properly cured and installed -- not to say it's never happened, just that I've never seen it. Hardwood with a natural finish is very easily touched up, and the colour goes all the way through it as well. With modern finishes cleanup is easy as well.

About the only downside I can see to good quality site finished hardwood is that you need to be able to find installers that know what they are doing, which isn't always easy these days...


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

KreenysMac said:


> ...They put in this vinyl flooring, that unless you bend down and touch it, looks exactly like wood...


I guarantee I could tell it's vinyl before I even got inside the house.
But I'm *very* picky. Too picky? Maybe.


KreenysMac said:


> and since the colour goes all the way thru, any damage is TOTALLY un-noticable...


I like the damage and wear on wood.
I _love_ the patina of worn wood floors. I guess it's a matter of taste.


KreenysMac said:


> I personally *hate* tile and really hard floors in the kitchen, it's amazingly tiring if you spend a lot of time working in a kitchen. The cork floors have just that *little* bit of give that makes all the difference on my knees


I agree completely. Besides the leg and foot fatigue of standing on a hard floor all the time, another issue of tile in kitchens is the unforgiving nature of tile when a dish, glass, or bowl drops. Things _might_ break when they fall on a wood floor, but they're pretty much guaranteed to smash when they hit a tile. :-(


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## draz (Jun 13, 2005)

this is a funny thread as it all centers around hardwood flooring. Before i got into finance i started and ran a flooring and construction company (now the fiance does) and we did tons and tons of hardwood flooring. This is the main reason i have a bad back. But when everything is said and done, nothing is quite like the look and finish of gorgeous hardwood floors. I have done the fiances parents house in reddish hardwood. The parents main floor in light natural with the upstairs in caramel and am having the guys lay the basement this summer. Infact i did a friends large master bathroom in hardwood this weekend past. (she lives alone with no kids or pets)

You can indeed find decent hardwood for $4 a square foot, although not exotic or tropical stuff. You need to shop around, right now alot of the dealers are fighting on price point, so there are deals to be had. Some of the Ronas have sales on, and the Homedepot in Whitby has both dark chocolate, and a reddish natural in at $3.99 a square foot. (one of our guys sent me a sample of the stuff as he just installed some)

The big thing these days is bamboo, african, and birch (which i don't recommend as it is fairly soft but eventlhy grained) Aswell Bruce is not a terrible brand just one where you really get the grade you pay for. Shoot for b - c, or select.

McAndy if you want to have hardwood installed PM or email me as our guys do amazing work and are extremly competitive on price. I can fireoff some examples if you want of our work in the gta. 

In the end the install makes or breaks the floors and in the end you can always do them yourself with some guidance.


Cheers and good luck from someone who has renowed more houses then i would like to admit.

Draz


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

I saw "The Break Up" last night. (Not as bad as some make it out to be)
Their condo has gorgeous wood floors. I never thought I'd like narrow planks, but, whoa!

(Come to think of it, the _condo_ was the star of the movie.)


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Update "Stardate" 08092006 ;-)

Heating plans done. Only he didn't listen to a word we said. He is running two huge vents down the middle of our basement ceiling. I know we can have the cold air return run between the joists to the north side and into the existing cold air vent. So I will make it so! With the heating plans done all that remains is to pre-order whatever the framer needs to complete his part of the work - windows and doors, etc. Keep wondering if we should order now when it may not happen this fall.

Hoping that the contractor we want will call in early September to confirm that we are a "go". If not, I don't want to have this go into late October so we'll likely postpone until next April.

Went to my in-laws new condo that is being renovated before they move in. It has crap laminate flooring throughout and I can't help but feel I am walking on a not-very-permanent floor surface. It clacks everytime you walk on it. It's crap, I won't be doing that, that's for sure.

With all this on the horizon all I could do this past weekend was replace the gate latch and install new slide bolts on the shed I built a few years ago. At least that only took 20 minutes - I feel like I actually accomplished something!

Anybody else in the midst of any projects?


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

projects? oh yea.

We finished our new kitchen, (needs backsplash and range hood yet), put in a laundry room and my new studio )) in the basement, and are now doing the entire second floor, re configure and complete new bathroom, and remodel all 3 bedrooms. Looking forward to finishing early september, and less dust...


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> ... He is running two huge vents down the middle of our basement ceiling. I know we can have the cold air return run between the joists to the north side and into the existing cold air vent...


You're probably aware of this, but another way to gain basement ceiling height is to use the new, wider, flatter heating ducts that hug closer to the ceiling while providing the same amount of flow area.


MacAndy said:


> Anybody else in the midst of any projects?


Oh, man. My house is a hundred years old, so I'm in the midst of projects for the rest of my life! 
Just completed a mudroom addition, with brick. Well, still not wholly complete, some paint and trim still to do.
The TV room is being converted into a lounge/studio, and I finished the separating wall, with windows and transom to let light penetrate the whole room. Next, the built-ins. This week, I'm re-surfacing a food-prep surface for the tenants. This has led to some adventures with their pet bird, detailed in another thread. I'll post some photos of the renos this week, just so everyone else can feel better about their _own_ situations.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Not much around the house, as it is a rental. I have a door frame to fix, some wall holes to patch, that kind of thing. The big thing for us, if the money is there, is to build a proper 4x4 fort in the backyard. Floor 5' high, ladder, space for a slide (probably next year's budget), proper roof and the lot. And, since we won't be here forever, I need to build it in such a way that it can be relatively easily disassembled for moving. It shall be!


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

SoyMac said:


> You're probably aware of this, but another way to gain basement ceiling height is to use the new, wider, flatter heating ducts that hug closer to the ceiling while providing the same amount of flow area.


just be careful not to exceed the 4 to 1 aspect ratio of the duct. with a residential furnace you do not have much supply fan strength and any offsets and transitions create static which reduces your airflow. the straightest shortest distance is always best, otherwise you could impede the return airflow back to the furnace. make sure you seal all the joints on the ductwork too with foil duct tape, not the cloth crap - you can gain valuable cfm this way, sometimes enough to overcome the odd bad elbow or transition.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi gang!

The heating plans are revised and approved! I showed the plans to a heating contractor who will actually be doing the work and he agreed with my requests.

The cold air returns that were coming down from the upper level inside a wall outside the bathroom and from the main floor on the other side of this wall outside the bathroom will no longer run down the middle of the basement ceiling. These will be going across the basement ceiling between the joists, over to the north wall, and line up with the cold air return that is there now. The furnace is being moved 4-6ft towards the back of the house closer to these returns as well.

We also moved one seemingly uselessly positioned floor vent on the north wall, just a few feet from another one under an adjacent window. We have moved this to the inside wall coming from the hallway so it points into the middle of the new space that will be opened up. No need to have two vents just two feet away from each other!

We are keeping our fingers crossed that the framer will call soon to say we're just a few weeks along his line up of projects and he can fit us in before it gets too cold. Otherwise, I'll be a lot quieter here until sometime next April!


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

As I posted, 'way back when this thread started, we're having some major work done on our abode, and it's pretty much finished! The crawlspace under the kitchen is gone, replaced with a great, full-height, DRY, basement, with direct access to the outdoors; the old enclosed porch is gone, replaced with a wrap-around veranda on the front of the house, and waterproofing the old (80-100yrs) foundation appears to have been successful - it's dry inside, too! Yea!  

The only problem we have had has been the extreme settling of part of the backfill around the new foundation. It wasn't really compacted, and the ground collapsed at all three of the eavestrough downspouts. This caused the pipe from the sump to the drywell to be disabled, and some patio area to wash out. My contractor stepped right up, however, and has brought in more fill, and extensions for the downspouts. :clap: Now I have to move all my stuff from the rental container, into the basement, and re-install the fences.

Of course, all this got done, when we noticed a growing carbuncle on our livingroom ceiling.  Yep, the bathtub drain line is leaking, so we're having our bathroom redone, starting tomorrow.


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

As I posted, 'way back when this thread started, we're having some major work done on our abode, and it's pretty much finished! The crawlspace under the kitchen is gone, replaced with a great, full-height, DRY, basement, with direct access to the outdoors; the old enclosed porch is gone, replaced with a wrap-around veranda on the front of the house, and waterproofing the old (80-100yrs) foundation appears to have been successful - it's dry inside, too! Yea!  

The only problem we have had has been the extreme settling of part of the backfill around the new foundation. It wasn't really compacted, and the ground collapsed at all three of the eavestrough downspouts. This caused the pipe from the sump to the drywell to be disabled, and some patio area to wash out. My contractor stepped right up, however, and has brought in more fill, and extensions for the downspouts. :clap: Now I have to move all my stuff from the rental container, into the basement, and re-install the fences.

Of course, all this got done, when we noticed a growing carbuncle on our livingroom ceiling.  Yep, the bathtub drain line is leaking, so we're having our bathroom redone, starting tomorrow. With any luck, it'll be finished by early next week.

I think I'll take a break, then. It'll take me the rest of the month to get the rest of the work I mentioned above done, then I'll be the master of my domain! (well, workshop).


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi gang!

The framer called - we're No.4 on his list which means it is possible they can start, weather permitting, as early as October 9, likely October 16!!

All contractors have been contacted and aside from finishing the bathroom floor in the basement so we have an uninterrupted bathroom, we're ready to go!! I hope to get the tiles this week and do it on Sunday.

The heating contractor is coming in October 2 to install a new furnace and the basement ductwork. He'll return when the second storey is framed to complete the ductwork. If the framer comes through that will be the last week of October, if not, he'll finish up in April when it does finally get done.

I am dreaming now of having a full size dining room in which to host the Christmas dinner!!

Will keep you posted.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

hey gang,

MacAndy, hope you get your xmas wish!!

I'm driving myself INSANE as I'm looking to get a house of my own. Of course, if the house needs a little work, you can get a better deal on it, so I'm looking at TONS of houses, but i find that I am not an expert in renovations cost in Canada/Downtown Toronto. Could all of you guys be more specific regarding ballpark figures of renos? For instance, Chris; how much did your dig under the kitchen to make it to a finished basement with an outside entrance cost you?

and MacAndy : Rona quoted you 24K, but if you add that to all the contractor's fees, construction work, etc , etc... what's a ballpark figure to put a second story in your home? will it include a bathroom upstairs? And if you did not do any work yourself, how much extra Ks would your renos cost you?

I'm just trying to get a better idea of actual costs, i don't know if any of you feel comfortable in giving out ballpark figures, but i hope i'm not putting anyone on the spot for asking.

A property i saw the other day i really liked, as it was an elevated property ( like 17 feet elevated) so once you climbed the stairs (imagine them with ice, oh well) it was AWESOME (i felt like ZEUS in the Olympus). The thing is that the house was not that great (small, dated; but full of potential). I figured i could extend the main floor towards the backyard (big open kitchen reno), and also extend the second floor on top (extra room and bathroom). The thing that turned it down for me is
a) accesability: how do you get construction materials up there (elevated, but there is a 4 foot wide side alley, but you still have to climb the stairs) .
b) it doesn't have a bathroom!!!!!!!  . (what it has is like a big closet in the kitchen with a sink, a plastic shower and a hole). So if i tear the kitchen and bath-closet down.......where am i going to.....in mid winter. ouch. I was thinking renting a place for a few months during renos, oh well.

any ideas on my predicament? any jokes? feel free to respond


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

I never noticed this thread before but since we just bought a house and it needs major repairs I tought I would chime in as well. The house is your basic 84 year old detached 2 floor with crappy electrical and plumbing. The 1st thing we're going to tackle is getting rid of the knob and tube wiring troughout the house and upgrading the 60 amp service to 100 amp, following the electrical we are going to renovate the upstairs bathroom with a bit of help from my dad and father in law. Also on the list to tackle is a total renovation of the kitchen, finishing off the basement, demolishing the existing deck and putting up a new one, the sunroom at the front of the house will need to be redone as well, and to finish it off there are plans to stucco the house, not a short list I know and it should keep us busy for a while.

Laterz


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

hey K-os, while you are at it, why not install 200 amps instead of 100? how much more would it cost?


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

gastonbuffet said:


> hey K-os, while you are at it, why not install 200 amps instead of 100? how much more would it cost?


I, too, highly recommend installing the 200 amp service. We will not be getting any less electrical in the future!

gastonbuffet, the problem with throwing out ballpark figures is that the ballpark is almost always inside another, bigger ballpark. 
One thing everyone does is spend waaaaay more money than they anticipated. 
The other thing we usually do is do lots more work than we thought we would. We pull out some wiring and then decide while we're in there, let's move or eliminate the wall. Oh, look! There is better light over here! Let's put the kitchen at this end!
Hmm, while we're putting in flooring, how about some higher baseboards? Ooops! Now we have to repair this old plaster wall!
You get the idea.
So if I was to give you an estimate of how much a project cost, I'd have to figure in all the extra costs associated with all the other things we did while we were working on the original plan.

 *This being SoyMac's 1,441st post, you win a Free Bonus!: 
SoyMac's advice to anyone about to do renos; *
Win the lottery. And not some dinky, ten thousand dollar scratch-and-win. Make sure the pay-out is in the millions. The more millions, the better.


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

gastonbuffet said:


> Chris; how much did your dig under the kitchen to make it to a finished basement with an outside entrance cost you?


That part of the project was about $38k + taxes. Remember, though, I'm not in the Toronto area. Given the higher costs in your part of the world, I imagine it would cost at least $45k + in your part of the world.

Frankly, if we hadn't had such a wet basement, we likely wouldn't have done such an extreme project. Of course, we are very pleased with the outcome. I get to set up my workshop next week! Yay! :clap:


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Chris said:


> Remember, though, I'm not in the Toronto area. Given the higher costs in your part of the world, I imagine it would cost at least $45k + in your part of the world.


Interestingly, we've been doing some major renovations at our properties in Toronto and in Niagara Falls. We've consistantly found that hiring people in Toronto, bringing them to Niagara Falls, and arranging for accommodations for them as needed (we manage apartments, so this is not difficult) is actually significantly cheaper than hiring locals in the Niagara Falls area: often between 1/3 to 2/3rd of the local contractor's price.

I would have thought it would have been far more expensive in Toronto, but no, far more expensive in Niagara Falls. (Less competition, perhaps.) Don't know if this is true everywhere, but it certainly was here.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

been pretty lucky with a local contractor here, who was reasonably priced, he is a fantastic drywaller, I watched him board and plaster a room, it was ready to paint at the end of the day. Sheetrock 20, no skim. Minor sanding.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi all, I'm not ignoring the other posts - great to see more of them - just wanted to respond to gastonbuffet's request on pricing...

Materials - the quote we got from Rona was $24K for EVERYTHING, they included shingles and siding which we are not getting from them, so I figure all of the framing, insulation, nails, etc is about $18K

Framer - he has quoted us $6-$10/sq.ft depending on complexity - a straightforward box is $6, the sloping roof on the front puts us in the $10 range, so all totalled the second storey framing of 640 sq.ft. is at the most $6,400

Roofer - haven't had a quote yet, likely in the $4,000 range including materials

Windows - pleasantly surprised, we should be in the $2,000-$2,500, I estimated double that

Siding - we're going with the sacrete finish which is likely much more expensive than aluminum siding but I can't stand the stuff, especially not on top of a brick base, need to get a quote on this yet, probably $4000-5000

Furnace - we got quotes all over the map but have, thankfully, found a great contractor who is coming soon to do the furnace and air unit, and when he has completed all of the ductwork we'll only part with $7500-$8000, 2-3000 less than some others.

Chimney - we want to keep our main floor fireplace so extending the chimney is going to cost $4000. If we didn't and just had a high efficient furnace, would not have pay for this at an HE furnace requires just inlet and exhaust tubes.

So, to get the second storey framed and closed in, with new furnace, excluding all interior finishing, about... $45,000.

*****

Now, for the interior, I could wave a magic wand [or the pen to write a cheque] and be done for $30,000] but I am going the sado-masochist route and doing it myself.

Main floor framing - have been quoted $1500 and have decided to let the contractor do this rather than me. I can do it but they would be done in 1 day, me not so fast

Drywall - I've already estimated all drywall, all 5/8", to be about $1400 for both stories. Tape and undercoat likely another $400-500.

Electrical - I am doing, so probably only $200-300 [I did all of the house so far and only spent that on wiring and boxes, fixtures not included]

Plumbing - I have tackled all of the plumbing so far, but as the upstairs bathroom is a new installation, we are going to have someone do this, not looking forward to the quote though, probably $2000

Flooring - don't want to go there, we'll likely spend far more than I would like but be happier in the long run, both floors total 1200 sqft give or take a few, likely $4000-5000. Subtract the bathroom and kitchen areas so a bit less than that. I'll do ceramic in the bathrooms, haven't decided in the kitchen, but likely only $2-3 sqft there anyways.

So this is about $10,000 but doesn't include finishing paint, trim, doors, etc so I would guess at least another $5-6000.

All totalled, on the low side $60K, high side $70-75

I am hoping to keep about $12K aside with the money we save on the interior for me to restore my Mustang next spring ;-) Look, dear, see how much WE saved? WE can get the Mustang restored!

Get the straightjacket out!


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

This thread needs before-and-after photos.
I have decreed it.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

AWESOME figures MacAndy and Chris. True thanks, as all this will come in handy for me eventually.I know it.
And Soymac suggestion.......right on. Like Wham! said :..." if you wanna do it, do it right, do it for meeeeeee" 

I'm your fannnnnnn, I'm your fan!!! 

enough coffee already!!!!


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi SoyMac,

I will be posting pictures of our progress. Perhaps what I should do is post pictures of the house when we first bought it - holy smokes it was horrible. We immediately knocked out the kitchen and bathroom as they were unusable. The bedrooms were done the following spring [I don't know how we lived in that the first year!] But my wife and I saw the potential and we've never regretted buying the fixer-upper.

Before and after photos are a great idea, will do.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

gastonbuffet said:


> hey K-os, while you are at it, why not install 200 amps instead of 100? how much more would it cost?


I asked the same thing but the person who is in charge of replacing the electrical at my house assured me it wasn't necessary to go to 200 amp. The reason why it won't be necessary to go to 200 amp is that we are going with a gas stove and a gas drier so the extra juice will not be necessary.

Just an update on my house we got quotes around $7500.00 to redo the bathroom and that was just for labour after we told the contractors that we would supply all the materials for the job, after some deliberation between me, my wife, father in law and my dad we have decided to tackle the job ourselves. And the fun begins 

Laterz


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

hey, is it just me who sees something rotten in the advice given to K-os by his electrician? Of course you don't NEED 200 now, and I'm sure that in the future, when you do, he will gladly come again an re-do the electrical; but wouldn't it be great to buy a thicker copper cable and box for a few dollars more and forget about for decades to come (or even sooner if you decide to sell). Maybe it's just me,K-os, but i would ask in an electrician's forum to confirm that advice.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

K_OS said:


> I asked the same thing but the person who is in charge of replacing the electrical at my house assured me it wasn't necessary to go to 200 amp. The reason why it won't be necessary to go to 200 amp is that we are going with a gas stove and a gas drier so the extra juice will not be necessary....


Yep, and when gas is obscenely expensive and you convert your appliances to electric and you have plasma TVs in every room, and a kick-ass entertainment system and electronic devices (from Apple  ) that we haven't even dreamed of yet, and your electrical system isn't quite up to snuff, you can go through the joyous experience of re-doing your electrical system.  
Probably the biggest lesson I learned doing renos is that we _never_ regretted doing things the right way and the best way, even at some extra cost, the first time around.

Anyway, whatever your final decision, I promise I won't bug you about this again.


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

gastonbuffet said:


> hey, is it just me who sees something rotten in the advice given to K-os by his electrician? Of course you don't NEED 200 now, and I'm sure that in the future, when you do, he will gladly come again an re-do the electrical; but wouldn't it be great to buy a thicker copper cable and box for a few dollars more and forget about for decades to come (or even sooner if you decide to sell). Maybe it's just me,K-os, but i would ask in an electrician's forum to confirm that advice.


Yeah, i have to agree, the cost now to upgrade the panel and the larger wiring (slightly more labour involved due to the size of the conductors) will be a little higher, but the trenching will be the same no matter what size they are putting in - unless it's overhead, then forget about the trenching. Might as well do it now, the extra money will be well spent.
As an aside, most new houses are provided with a 200 amp service, the only time we specify a 100 amp service anymore is for apartments or condos or some townhouses. ( BTW, i work for a mechanical/electrical engineering firm)


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

As I now have 2 furnaces and 2 A/C condencers in the house, I went with 200amp service. 

A permit from Hydro is required before any work begins. Hydro will send an inspector to determine what is needed and who needs to do what. They will leave a "location report" in your mailbox for the electrician. 

Your electrician will then have to change everything Hydro says is your responsibility. This may include the meter (if required), the conduit for sure (2"), main cable, possibly the clevis (if hydro says so), and the box(es)...if more than one. Once the work is done, the permit will have to be closed off and the meter re-sealed. I can't tell you the exact cost as this was included in my total, but it's not cheap.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

UPDATE - November 2006

Not doing the addition this year. Just not in the cards.

We have had a run of bad contractors in the past two months - I can't find two contractors back-to-back who won't lie to us about their experience or cost. And these are from referrals - REFERRALS! Someone RECOMMENDED these people to us! Maybe our job isn't big enough for them and they don't care? My inlaws just went through this in August - October with a crapola contractor and he was just doing new walls and painting.

Anyways, I had a new furnace dropped off [literally, my wife had to help the bastard cart it down the stairs, why he didn't have help I don't know] and placed in the new room I built for it, and it is still sitting there, looking expensive and useless at the same time.

We have had good news, bad news for the past two months. Good news in that we have found an excellent source for windows and solid wood doors, bad news in that a project manager pointed out 2 key problem areas but also estimated the work would cost double what we had had quoted to us - he's way off, so we didn't hire him, he wanted too much and we just wanted it roughed in. Thankfully, one issue was resolved - the drawings called for a cinder block build up that would have added a week to the timeline, but the local inspector said wood was fine, second one - the architect did not allow for the chimney extension even though we were adamant this was to be done. He was a good architect and listened to us all along, and worked with my wife who did an amazing job planning the spaces. Now we have to see if this can be amended. We have a high efficient furnace which doesn't need a chimney, but then we couldn't use the groundfloor fireplace unless the chimney was extended.

So, looks like next spring. I can take my time finishing the basement bathroom, and we'll get the basement ductwork in place before the construction begins.

One other glimmer of hope... I wasn't too fond of the two dormers design on the front, but we saw another house this framer was doing, and the two dormers were attached with a common facing - I like this much, much better and feel much better about the front of the house looking like this and still fitting in with the neighbourhood.

We have all the money for this but nobody is willing to take it from us.

Sigh, guess we can relax through the cold weather instead of living on the edge.

Check back next year, hopefully I'll have better news.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

sorry to hear the bad news. I might be needing a contractor and I'm scared zitless!!

what's your source for doors and windows?


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Good luck with the contractor thing. I think most established contractors do not want to touch any job under $10K. Since we've hired the framer and we're buying the materials ourselves, everything else is pretty much under $5K for each segment of the project - ductwork, plumbing, roofing - and I am doing the electrical, drywall, flooring and finishing.

Good source for doors and windows - Discount Windows at Dufferin and Finch - I don't have their info handy but they're easy to find. Don't buy all of their solid wood interior doors, please. ;-) They have a warehouse of samples but apparently they make them all new, I thought we had to buy off the shelf if we wanted those prices but apparently not, someone told us after we visited, so we're going back to get a full quote for the entire house, not just the 2nd storey.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> ...We have had a run of bad contractors in the past two months - I can't find two contractors back-to-back who won't lie to us about their experience or cost. And these are from referrals - REFERRALS! Someone RECOMMENDED these people to us!...


I had the same experience here with an electrician, home inspector, and real estate lawyer! All recommended by a very knowledgeable housing guy, and all crappy.
We are lucky with our contractors though, Maybe because they came from the referral of relatives who are in the biz.


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## Boomcha (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi guys, I bought a home with my wife last year (our first home) and we are in the process of doing some fixing and slight renovations. Our home is pretty old (around 1930's) and there were issues that we tacked right away. My father in law is an electrician so we had him rewire the whole house, mostly because the old wire was aluminum and knob and tube and since we didn't want to deal with any safety issues. So all nice new copper for us.

There were some renovations done a couple years ago here by some idiots who didn't vent the new bathroom so we are redoing that this weekend. My brother in law is a plumber so he is well apt to do that. 

But speaking of doors and windows. I just got two new exterior doors installed last month. One is red in fibreglass (looks and feels like wood) and the other white and steel and the company did a great job. We got about 5 different companies to quote us and since these guys were members of the Better Business Bureau and had a good record we decided to go with them. http://www.gtawindows.com

I have a good window guy that did 2 windows on our house and my good friends whole house. Green Vision windows (416) 422-2620 Paul is the name. The thing is that he only does vinyl windows. Tell him that Jorge Chaves sent you.

I would've gotten him to do the doors but he doesn't do doors. Fantastic guy and great prices, knowledgeable too. He is the only person that I gave some beer to after he finished up.

Having a home is a great thing. Just seems that I always have some project to do. Not as much time to play. Always money to spend.

Jorge


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi, just a comment on the old knob-and-tube wiring - it's a misconception that this wiring is problematic. It's been in use since the turn of the century and can anyone remember the last time a house burned down because of it? Nope.

Now, the aluminum crap they put in houses in the late Sixties thru to the mid-Seventies - there is the problem. The wiring corroded because people mixed aluminum with copper, especially recepticles with copper contacts. Corrosion led to overheating, overheating led to fires. Use the correct recepticles with copper wiring and you should be OK.

Where most people run into problems is not understanding how runs of knob-and-tube wiring work. You can in fact have an entire floor running off the same neutral, with the positive on separate breakers, go figure. So when people started adding to the old wiring, they'd tap in at the most opportune location and not realize what they were doing to the service - overloading one long run instead of dividing it properly.

The knob-and-tube in my house, we had it for the first five years we owned the house, no problems at all. All of the aluminum wiring in the tarred coating with paper sheaths, what a load of garbage, could not wait to haul all of that out.

You could conceivably rewire a new house with knob-and-tube wiring, albeit more circuits and each on a separate fuse/breaker, and there would be no problem at all. It would just would be impossible to get it approved.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Actually, my understanding is that the bigger problem with knob and tube is finding an insurance company who will insure the place, even if the knob and tube is reasonably safe.

I'm told that there are a few that will do it if the house has been professionally inspected.


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## thatcomputerguy (Jan 13, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> Now, the aluminum crap they put in houses in the late Sixties thru to the mid-Seventies - there is the problem. The wiring corroded because people mixed aluminum with copper, especially recepticles with copper contacts. Corrosion led to overheating, overheating led to fires. Use the correct recepticles with copper wiring and you should be OK.


Andy - just to clarify. Aluminum wiring is not a bad thing, in fact it is still used a lot today, but mostly for main feeders, not branch circuit wiring. Improper installation is the problem, and as you eluded to, the combination of copper and aluminum wiring which mainly causes problems due to the dissimilar metals and also the rates at which they expand and contract when heated. There are numerous ways to fix the problem instead of ripping it all out, but it is best to leave that work to a qualified electrician.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

I thought I'd post this here instead of starting a new thread. 

Anyone have any experience buying new flooring? I'm looking for some new carpeting and hard wood, where is the best place to buy? Big box stores? Little guys? Should I leave that up to a contractor? Anyone have good or bad stories to share?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

JumboJones said:


> Should I leave that up to a contractor? Anyone have good or bad stories to share?


When we remodeled, I negotiated for and bought the hardwood separately, then had it installed by the contractor. I reasoned that I had cut out any opportunity for him to play middle man and take a mark up on the product.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Was it worth your while? Did you compair that to like an installed price by someone like HD or Sears?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

JumboJones said:


> Was it worth your while? Did you compair that to like an installed price by someone like HD or Sears?


This was done back in 1998. First I visited hardwood specialty stores and got prices on the product. I specifically did not request an installed price, rather I said I would be installing it myself.

Once I had the prices, and I did include some big boxes, I then selected the lowest two and phoned back asking for a price to install as I might change my mind about doing the work myself.

In both cases they quoted $1.25 a square foot if memory serves me right. I gave the information to my contractor and he agreed to install it for the same rate. 

In my mind I saved at least the 20% or so that I suspect he would have marked it up.


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## kwmike (Oct 25, 2006)

I am a professional Taper/Finisher if anyone needs one.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

*Second storey addition - here we go!!!*

Hi gang,

It's a GO!! The framing contractor is confirmed for the last week of April. Looks like our second storey is going to happen sometime this spring!

I have finished the basement so it is livable and hope to finish the installation of a shower stall in the basement this coming weekend so it is fully functional. We plan to live in the basement during the construction though may spend 2-3 nights at a local motel when the roof is off and the new floor goes in because the heat and electricity will be off those days.

We have a month to tear out the main floor and prepare for the roof coming off - I am not doing the roof but am doing all the other tear out. The bin is coming next week so we're going to be starting as soon as it is available. Starting with the bedrooms then living/dining room, then finally the hall and bathroom, lastly the kitchen and front hall. Tearing it out right down to the brick, it will be an empty shell.

The new furnace was installed the first week of January [remember how warm it was?] so it is roughed in at the front and back for the vertical feeds to the second storey.

Will keep you posted!


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

kwmike said:


> I am a professional Taper/Finisher if anyone needs one.


Hey Good to know! If I ever need you I will give you a call...do you texture ceilings?
There are lot's of times I need someone who is really good and if your good your paid good...

I do paint and tile work in Guelph, Waterloo, Kitchener and everywhere else pretty much...

www.cartesiantileandpaint.com


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Whenever the urge to renovate comes on I take several glasses of Scotch and go to bed. Usually, by morning, the urge is gone. If that doesn't work, I get out photos of past reno jobs (before, during and after) we have undertaken, that with more scotch always makes the feeling go away....


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

haha. I'll keep a bottle of scotch in the cupboard with that in mind.

We just got through a complete tearout to the studs of the kitchen w/ patio door install, tearout of the bathroom, 2nd floor total re plaster, remodel, laundry room, studio, stair refinish, oh a ton more crap.

the novelty has worn off.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Home renovation: a special kind of hell.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Max said:


> Home renovation: a special kind of hell.


You can say that again....


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Special kind of hell, yes. I always say to myself - I'm a graphic designer - I shouldn't be installing shower stalls and knocking down walls. But being a graphic designer has helped too, with an eye on design, angles, creativity, etc.

So, I plan to live in this hell for a few months, knowing that come September, definitely by Christmas, we'll have the house of our dreams, based on the inexpensive house we bought, all the while enjoying the same neighbourhood and allowing our kids to attend the same school.

And a little insanity helps too. ;-)

Looking forward to it!!


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I too am a graphic designer. Alas, I know my limitations. I can knock down walls... give me a sledge and watch me work out my inner demons... but I cannot reliably build anything useful. I work well in 2D - it's the third one that eludes me, every time. More power to you if you can manage to stay sane.

Me, I have contractors in my own house as I type this, fixing the stuff I can't be bothered to further destroy with my well-intentioned but fatally flawed "repairs."


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> - - knowing that come September, definitely by Christmas, - - -


Good luck with that!

The LAST reno job we contracted, the one that put us off ever doing it again, started in *June* estimated to take 6 weeks (July - hah!). A week in it actually looked more like a 4 week job easy (again, hah!). This was good because my wife had taken the kids to England to her mother's for the alleged duration. Then the contractor disappeared... then the workers threatened to put a lien on the house because the contractor hadn't paid them.... and everything ground to a halt until I threatened violence - I knew where the contractor lived......

To make a long, long story short, by *November* the windows in the kitchen were still a single sheet of plastic and I was sleeping with a staple gun under my pillow to affect repairs nightly whenever the wind ripped out that plastic... This with 2 kids under 6 in the house. It took threats of legal and physical violence to get the job done - which it never actually was.... I am still to this day finishing details, a task over which I procrastinate because it still results in rage as I have to undo work I paid for and redo it right...


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

I have heard the horror stories with contractors - shame it happens. My in-laws got shafted, and this even though he came highly regarded by friends.

The contractor we have lined up has done several houses in our area. He is contracted to do the framing only. This is key. If you put all your eggs in one basket there is far more that can go wrong. We have lined up all of the individual contractors to do the work I cannot. I am doing the interior finishing, so we only want an exterior shell with the plumbing roughed in.

The major delays we have had in the past have been due to money and a tight budget. Now, with a healthy line of credit in place, all funds are alotted and are available when needed. Rather than buy 4 or 5 sheets of drywall when I could afford them, we're having 120 sheets delivered in one shot, all ready to go.

Based on the four houses this contractor did last year in our area [he did several more elsewhere], the schedule works, and this contractor doesn't want the framing to take more than 4 days. We visited two sites regularly and discussed all aspects of the work because he knows we're working as our own project managers.

I'm not saying this will go entirely smoothly because it is the smaller contractors that can hold you up but we've also done over a year in planning and research so we're prepared. My holidays are at the end of May so I've got a whole week to get as much done as I can. I'm even hoping all the drywall will be in place by mid-May so I have that week to do the final sanding and painting.

Will post pics of the ongoing mess as they become available. My neighbour across the street even suggesed setting up a camera in his window on time-lapse since the roof comes off the first day, riser and floor goes in next, walls the following day and roof structure the 4th day, so it all happens very quickly.

It'll all work out fine - and besides, my bed at the institute won't be ready until at least December. ;-)


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Deconstruction has commenced. We have torn out the two back bedrooms to the brick walls, about 1/3 of the floorspace.

Removing the drywall was easy, I had put these walls in 11 years ago when we first bought the house. A 2' square chunk of the old ceiling - I had just covered it with drywall - weighs as much as an entire sheet of 4x8 drywall! So, not looking forward to tearing out the ceilings. Those will be done last, when we're ready to take the roof off.

We are now, as of Sunday, officially living in our basement. Thankfully, it is a full-renovated basement, and since we had the furnace replaced in January, it is very warm and comfortable. It was uninhabitable up until recently, so nice now.

My aim is to have the living and dining rooms and bathroom torn out this weekend, leaving just the kitchen and front hall.

Now, one hoop I have to go through... the attic insulation. There are strips of gypsum wool which is paper-bagged fibreglass, which lie between the roof beams. When you pull down the plaster, this stuff comes down too. Now, that would be OK to handle if it weren't for all the loose blown-in crap insulation that is covering all of that. We have a quote of $750 to remove the insulation but we have to find out if that includes the bagged stuff or was just for the blown stuff. If it doubles the quote to remove it, then I have another plan...

I'm thinking I might get up there with a leaf blower and force all the loose stuff out and into the small bedroom and shovel it into bags. My wife is getting some mattress bags from work - that'll do the trick!

Ask me again on Monday after I attempt this. If I haven't killed myself trying!


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> Now, one hoop I have to go through... the attic insulation. There are strips of gypsum wool which is paper-bagged fibreglass, which lie between the roof beams. When you pull down the plaster, this stuff comes down too. Now, that would be OK to handle if it weren't for all the loose blown-in crap insulation that is covering all of that. We have a quote of $750 to remove the insulation but we have to find out if that includes the bagged stuff or was just for the blown stuff. If it doubles the quote to remove it, then I have another plan...
> 
> I'm thinking I might get up there with a leaf blower and force all the loose stuff out and into the small bedroom and shovel it into bags. My wife is getting some mattress bags from work - that'll do the trick!
> 
> Ask me again on Monday after I attempt this. If I haven't killed myself trying!


That loose stuff will fly every where if you blow it... and takes forever to settle. I have tried something similar and suggest you get (rent?) an industrial size shopvac or the like. That way you are containing the mess rather than spreading it around and it is easy enough to dump into the large bags.

You have good masks I hope and I DO NOT MEAN those crappy useless white paper things. A proper rubber face fitting mask with quality filter cans, please....


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi, just got a response from my dad on this. He told me, son, turn the damn leaf blower around y'idiot! Well, not THOSE words. But the leaf blower is also a leaf sucker. Might take a helluva lot of loads of bags. Maybe I can hook up the blower to an even bigger bag?

I was thinking if I isolated the one small bedroom and blew it all down into that one room, then it could settle over a day or so before we bag it.

And yes, I have a full face mask with respirator and changeable filters. Those little paper masks are OK for working with drywall and sweeping, but beyond that they're useless.

We'll see how this plans goes...


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> Hi, just got a response from my dad on this. He told me, son, turn the damn leaf blower around y'idiot! Well, not THOSE words. But the leaf blower is also a leaf sucker. Might take a helluva lot of loads of bags. Maybe I can hook up the blower to an even bigger bag?


Brilliant! See? Us older guys do know some stuff...  

Remember the bag has to 'breathe' out the air while containing the crud like a filter... Plastic won't do, I don't think - it'll pro'ly just inflate..


> And yes, I have a full face mask with respirator and changeable filters. Those little paper masks are OK for working with drywall and sweeping, but beyond that they're useless.


Sounds like a decent respirator. I wouldn't trust those paper things to protect my lungs from anything - drywall dust is actually very fine - goes right thru regular vacuum filter bags (wrecks the motor) and those paper masks - you might as well wear a coffee filter. Another issue with the paper masks is they never fit tight. I used to work (between academic gigs) cleaning pigeon $h!t out of old buildings with all the hazmat suits and everything, and respirators were a very big deal.. Dust kills!!


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Yes, old guys rule. In fact, I owe my entire ability to meddle with my house to my dad.

They bought a house in the beaches in 1972 and spent 13 years renovating it, only to move in 1985. Go figure.

I learned drywalling, electrical and plumbing from dear ol' dad. Electrical I supplemented with working in the display department at Sears Gerrard Square. Renovated our house starting in 1995, finishing the basement two years ago, now starting all over again. Renovated my brother's house around the corner two years ago only to see him move to Ottawa!

I looked at my dad this past weekend while he was helping tear out the walls and said "This is the absolute last time I do this!"

Of course, they bought their latest house in Oshawa three years ago and proceeded to rip out each room one by one and redo them. Never learn...

By this weekend more than half of the main floor will be gutted, leaving just the kitchen and bathroom. If I have time, and energy, may take the bathroom out too.

Contractor should be starting framing of the second storey the first week of May.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi gang,

Here is a link to pics of our progress.

Renovations, April 2007

After just two weekends we are 75% gutted on the main floor. We are not taking out the kitchen until the framing contractor gives us his firm start date.

Insulation is coming out next Friday. Dominion Insultation can take out the blown stuff AND the bagged stuff all for $823, and frankly, I don't need the hassle of doing it myself. A few hours and it will done, then we can take the ceiling down the following weekend.

Stay tuned for further progress...


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi again,

OK, now for a little creative juggling in the next two weeks...

We're almost done demolition on the ground floor, might be finished this coming weekend.

Insulation is being sucked out on Friday.

We can then take down the ceiling plaster.

Need a new bin delivered on Friday too, first bin is 90% full.

Framer now says if the plans call for a cinder block riser, he wants a cinder block riser. He said previously that he's been doing wood with no problem. He must have gotten a call from our inspector when we questioned the inspector about it.

The decision to use cinder block or wood is the inspector's and he can only do that when the roof is off.

So, all going well, the roof is coming off in one week, possibly next Monday.

Cinder block riser going on next week.

Framing starts week of May 14.

And if rains heavy enough, this entire schedule is out the window!*

*and they can't be installed until the framing is done!


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Scheduling update...

Luckily, the framer is not coming next week, and we shifted the roof coming off until this weekend, block work next week, framing the week after that.

I have updated the pics with a second page, accessible via link from the first page:

Renovations April 2007

Only the kitchen remains, and is coming out in the next few days.

The entire floor area will be replaced as the floorboards are not good enough to reuse. Can't wait to get a complete new floor in place.

Still having fun!


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

*Work in progress...*

Check out the latest pics by clicking through to the third page...

http://www.inhouseproductions.on.ca/andrew/renovations07/index.html

We completely gutted the house this past weekend and the framer started installing the floor joists yesterday.

By the end of this week the walls will be up.

By the end of next week the roof will be in place and the finishing begins!

Will post more pics as they become available.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

So, you moved in yet? lol


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Define "moved in" Yes, we're living in the house, albeit in the basement.

The last of the framing, the ground floor and interior walls for the hall and bathroom, are going in TODAY!

After spending 3-4 weeks working on the electrical and plumbing to retrofit the old with the new, we are finally ready to do the electrical to the 2nd floor.

Hope to get structural inspection approved in two weeks to begin drywalling.

Will be posting more pics in a few days.

Still having fun!


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Just realized I hadn't posted some pics from quite some time ago - the house has certainly progressed since I last posted the link to the pics...

http://www.inhouseproductions.on.ca/familypics/renovations07/index.html

Follow through the pages to the 6th page and that is where we're at now.

A lot of main floor work will be done in the next two weeks, including the finished stairs which will be really exciting to see.

Hope you enjoy!

[anyone else doing any work on their house?]


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hi again, even more progress this past weekend when we installed the main floor front window [a bonus as this was the window for upstairs but the framer wanted a lower profile] and the french doors to the patio were installed too. See page 7 of the online pics!

Cheers!


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Howdy!

Has it really been 7 months since I last posted about our renovations????

Well, things have gone well and not so well... From the outside the house looks finished. Inside, it's another storey - ha, pun intended!

We're still in the middle of drywalling. My plan had been to drywall in Sep/Oct. But, the architect was waaaaaaaaay off on his plans - plans that had the cold air return ducts from the second floor shoot right up in the middle of the kitchen. I found this out when wiring up the bedrooms upstairs and finding the middle of the centre wall between them was 2-3 feet further back from where we wanted the cold air returns to go down through the main floor to the basement.

Fortunately for us, and thankfully because I am able to do some framing myself, we were able to run the cold air returns together inside a slightly thicker wall on the backside of the kitchen and feed them to the front walls of each bedroom rather than to the middle walls.

Of course, changing this meant changing that, and so on and so on.

While it is taking MUCH MUCH longer than we had anticipated, we are thoroughly enjoying it. We're taking the time to work things out, and since we're living in the construction, we're able to see how the usable space works and have made adjustments along the way.

So, looks like it will be the end of February before all of the drywall is up, then another month of plastering and painting.

Looks like it is going to take at least a full year. Now, if you had said that to me before I started I probably wouldn't have started!!

Hope to post updated pics when I get a chance, maybe the spring of 2012!! ;-)


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

Any updates to the great renovation saga? Enquiring minds want to know!  

(Okay, okay, we're all just nosey!):lmao:


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hey there Chris,

It's going, but oh so slowly. The one advantage to me doing all the inside finishing is that we can adjust as we go along. I've had to move toilets and plumbing, even moved the stack pipe that was interfering with a closet wall, rerun wiring, move walls, etc, etc which is all fine and dandy, but in so doing, this has added months to the project.

Our next big step is the flooring. Any samples we've liked have suddenly become 'unavailable' when it came time to order. Is this a ploy stores use to get you in by saying the flooring is 50% off, only to find that's 50% off the most expensive flooring which means the sale price is still $2-3 sq.ft more than buying it at Rona? We're not being picky - we want a nice clean birch or beech with fine grain, not knotty like most oaks, in a warm toast colour, not orangey. It will come.

However... did get some good deals recently:
- frameless glass shower doors for my girls' bathroom so I can build a custom tile stall - framing is done, started with the beltline tile design, hope to finish this weekend, the doors cost just $200 [custom doors were quoted at $800+)

- acrylic 68" bathtub - we had the length for a 6' tub instead of the standard 5' but the width of 6' tubs is wider. Found a very expensive (when new) acrylic tub for just $175 at the ReStore on Burmondsey - recycled home reno materials. This was a $1400 tub and it's in absolutely perfect condition. Need to build the frame around it but it will look spectacular when installed.

- front and screen doors - acquired from another home reno around the corner, for free!

Will post more pics soon, but quite frankly, have been so busy with work and personal life, the house is slow going right now.

Thanks for being nosey!

Anyone else knee-deep in renos?

Question for yas... anyone here assembled a shower stall from scratch? I acquired the Kerdi foam base, cemented it in place, used Flexite thinset over this and laid the membrane down. But, seems to have cracked in a couple of places and the membrane will peel away from the Flexite - what the hell? I am probably going to use a bonding agent to affix the membrane, but what about the Flexite that goes over top to adhere the floor tiles to the surface - they sure as hell better not separate! Any help here would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

We've just renovated our kitchen. Started May 25th when the contractors arrived and cleaned it out down to the walls, removing the old cabinets, scrapped the stipple off the ceiling, and generally gutted the place. They had the ceiling completely refinished by the end of the next day with a lovely smooth finish. They put a new subfloor down, and then plastered and painted the walls. Flooring guys arrived the following day with the new vinyl flooring. The new cabinets arrived that weekend and were installed. The cabinets took a few days to install, with a bit of a delay when we discovered a wrong measurement so they had to get a different width cabinet - that slowed things down for a weekend until the proper cabinet arrived. 

Once the cabinets were installed and leveled, the countertop guy showed up and measured, and then it was a couple of weeks for delivery of the countertops (we went with granite). Countertops were installed on Monday this week, plumber showed up Tuesday and finished the plumbing. I came home from holidays yesterday. 

The only hiccoughs: the new window we ordered came with the opening to the wrong side, so we're waiting for that to arrive and it will be installed and then the trim around the window will be finished. We still have to pick out some lighting and tile for the backsplash, but wanted to see how everything looked before we picked out those final finishing touches. But that should be done before the end of the month if we can find some tiles and lighting we like.

All in all relatively painless, although we were without the kitchen for a total six weeks. I was gone for half of those six weeks on various business trips, and then took off for the last six days on a bit of a holiday. (I told my husband when I left on this last trip that I'd be back when we once again had a functioning dishwasher.)

And the only tool I picked up was the pen to write the cheque to the contractors. That's _my_ kind of renovation.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> Question for yas... anyone here assembled a shower stall from scratch? I acquired the Kerdi foam base, cemented it in place, used Flexite thinset over this and laid the membrane down. But, seems to have cracked in a couple of places and the membrane will peel away from the Flexite - what the hell? I am probably going to use a bonding agent to affix the membrane, but what about the Flexite that goes over top to adhere the floor tiles to the surface - they sure as hell better not separate! Any help here would be appreciated.


I am in the process of building a steam shower enclosure using the Kerdi system. So far it seems to be going well, although I am only about 2/3 through putting the tiles up. I'm not sure what "Flexite thinset" is, but Schluter recommends using unmodified thinset with Kerdi.

I bought a copy of "The Kerdi Shower Book" in PDF form here: The Kerdi Shower Book - Mold-free, Leakproof and Accessible Tile Showers, and found it to be a good reference. There is also a fairly active forum with lots of information on Kerdi here: Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile - powered by vBulletin

Good luck!


MacAndy said:


> However... did get some good deals recently:
> - frameless glass shower doors for my girls' bathroom so I can build a custom tile stall - framing is done, started with the beltline tile design, hope to finish this weekend, the doors cost just $200 [custom doors were quoted at $800+)


I wish someone would quote ~me~ $800 for custom frameless shower doors! I suppose when you live in a boomtown, you are stuck with boomtown prices...

I'm not sure what your doors or shower stall look like, but usually you measure for frameless doors *after* the tile is up, as it is very difficult to know the exact dimensions of the enclosure up front due to variations in the thickness of the thinset, tiles, etc.


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Hey there, thanks for the links, will consider the ebook.

Flexibond is the name, not Flexite, got it wrong. This is what was recommended by the guy at Rona because Mike Holmes uses it - for what that's worth. I am using the traditional membrane over the Kerdi base. No problem with cutting and adhering the base, that was straight-forward. No problem with the cement over the base though the nice angles of the bare base are now obliterated by the layer of cement. It's just that the membrane can lift up off the cemented base now. I am thinking of using an industrial adhesive to adhere the membrane to the base, but concerned about the cement over top for the surface tiles - if this doesn't bond then what?!

As for the cracks I heard when standing on the base, when I lifted the membrane, turns out it was just a few air bubbles that created some pockets, the edges of which cracked a bit. The entire surface itself is perfectly fine, no structural cracks.

I got the frameless shower doors off a craigslist post. Since all shower doors are 24" wide you pretty much have to build around them. The opening is 40". So I have built two wing walls, and the upper glass sections will sit on these. I left the opening 2" wider than the doors, allowing for the mesh, cement and tile thickness on each side, leaving about 1" opening that is 1/2" on either side for the clearance and the hinge sides.

Thanks.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacAndy said:


> Flexibond is the name, not Flexite, got it wrong. This is what was recommended by the guy at Rona because Mike Holmes uses it - for what that's worth. I am using the traditional membrane over the Kerdi base. No problem with cutting and adhering the base, that was straight-forward. No problem with the cement over the base though the nice angles of the bare base are now obliterated by the layer of cement. It's just that the membrane can lift up off the cemented base now. I am thinking of using an industrial adhesive to adhere the membrane to the base, but concerned about the cement over top for the surface tiles - if this doesn't bond then what?!


What do you mean by "traditional membrane"?

I would be hesitant to use anything but Kerdi membrane and drain with the Kerdi shower tray - these components are all engineered to work together as a system, and you do *not* want any water getting into that foam tray. Schluter recommends unmodified thinset, I have had good results with that. If you are doing anything else, I would suggest calling Schluter, or at the very least, checking the forum posted above.



MacAndy said:


> I got the frameless shower doors off a craigslist post. Since all shower doors are 24" wide you pretty much have to build around them. The opening is 40". So I have built two wing walls, and the upper glass sections will sit on these. I left the opening 2" wider than the doors, allowing for the mesh, cement and tile thickness on each side, leaving about 1" opening that is 1/2" on either side for the clearance and the hinge sides.


I'm doing a steam enclosure - so I need to have a custom door that fits tight in the finished opening. I'm jealous of your Craigslist deal though...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

SPAM, reported.


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

where is the spamola?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

"Twas deleted promptly. Don'tcha just love ehMac?


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