# Hey guys.. Looking to switch!



## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

Hey everyone.. I have been on the PC train for my entire life. I have given up on Windows and have been running Ubuntu for the better part of the last 6-8 months. 

My 5 year old system finally gave up the ghost, and I am tired of updating to get back to "Good enough".

We have been looking at an iMac, and I have been going into stores to get the "PC vs. Mac" argument to cover all bases. Surprisingly, 4/5 sales guys have completely 100% suggested the Mac. The "odd ball" gave us a pitch tonight against them. He showed us a PC that was really impressive. Linky!

Now, I get the fact that a PC needs more specs to run the bloated cow that is windows. I understand it.. 

The hangup I have is that I see the wicked video card, the 5.1 dolby sound card and a quad processor and I have to admit I am getting "_Spec Envy_". The 4GB of DDR2 would be comparable to the 2GB of DDR3, so no worries there. I have a terabyte external drive, so I don't care about that..


My question is this:

*Why should I get the 20" iMac when I could get this "blistering" system for $400 less?*

I am not "hating" on the iMac, I just want re-assurance that going Mac is the way to go. I am not a "power user" by any means, but I do do alot of photo editing and graphical editing. 

Thanks guys! I appreciate the input.
Matt


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## petercockroach (Apr 23, 2009)

If you do a lot of photo/graphics work, specs are out the window. OS X is (as I'm sure you're already aware) far more powerful/stable than Windows.

It sounds like you're already "open" to using a new OS if you've been using Ubuntu. MacOS is like a polished version of Linux. Yes, it may be more expensive than a Windows machine, but you won't really understand how much better a Mac is until you get one. Also, Macs hold their resale value so if you decide in a few months that you want to go back, you shouldn't have any problems reselling.


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## Thom (May 10, 2005)

M_Portiss said:


> *Why should I get the 20" iMac when I could get this "blistering" system for $400 less?*


Because if you don't, you'll have a PC again.....


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## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

That's the whole issue though, isn't it.

With a PC, you get the SPECS.

With a Mac, you get the Mac experience.


From what I see, this is what it comes down to in all the debates, people value one over the other. And the decision comes down to what you value more.

You said yourself you're getting spec-envy, however from most of your post you talk about constant upgrades, only being "good enough", and things you need to do with your computer.

And only one paragraph comparing specs.

I'd hazard a guess that you value "what can I do and how well can I do it?" over "how many bogomips can I crank out of my CPU?"


Personal anecdote here, I used to be that "specs" and "tinker with my kernel" guy. Then, when I made the deicsion to go away to Europe for a couple of years, I needed a laptop to serve me as a main machine all throughout. I didn't need something to tinker with. I didn't need something that needed constant babying and upgrades. Something I had to get down and dirty and fix and maintain.

I needed something that worked out of the box, had good battery life, had support all around the world (and boy was it useful when I was in Tokyo...).. I needed something I could use for various projects.

My choices came down to a 600$ Linux laptop, or a 1600$ Macbook (with Applecare 2 year extension). Guess which one I chose  Guess how much I regret my decision? No regret at all. Why? Cuz I get stuff done, rather than spend my time compiling the latest nvidia drivers or apt-getting the latest packages that'll break my workflow and make me spend 2 hours watching them update and crossing my fingers it'll work.

Plus the machine is way more beautiful, more portable, lasts longer, is quieter, still as snappy now as in June 2006, MORE useful with Leopard and all the apps I acquired over the years and the workflow I developped...

Cuz things just work without tinkering.

You don't get that with SPECS. With specs you just get... specs you can brag about until 2 months later when the new CPU comes out.


Of course opinions are gonna be biased pro-mac on here, but still, for me, it's sealed, and everyone of my friends who saw my contentment with my Macbook and ended up themselves getting one... Would never look back either.

Patrix.


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## imobile (Oct 6, 2007)

*Save your $400*



M_Portiss said:


> Hey everyone.. I have been on the PC train for my entire life. I have given up on Windows and have been running Ubuntu for the better part of the last 6-8 months.
> 
> My 5 year old system finally gave up the ghost, and I am tired of updating to get back to "Good enough".
> 
> ...


Give it to Norton et al... bye bye


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

I was in your shoes a couple of years ago...and bought an ASUS laptop due to cost and spec...and regretted it. Ended up realizing I was just delaying the inevitable and sold the ASUS and bought the MacBook Pro. Ended up costing me more then it should as I took a hit selling the ASUS but three years later my MacBook's still very capable and with the new solid state drive installed its faster then anything else I've used...incl my brand new high end IBM at work (what a dog that thing is )


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

M_Portiss said:


> Hey everyone.. I have been on the PC train for my entire life. I have given up on Windows and have been running Ubuntu for the better part of the last 6-8 months.
> 
> My 5 year old system finally gave up the ghost, and I am tired of updating to get back to "Good enough".
> 
> ...


See that big ugly tower? Quite unnecessary, really. The 20" iMac is so much more economical, ergonomical, and impresses the ladies. No matter how "cool" of a PC you put together, it still has to run Windows. 'Nuff said.


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## ScanMan (Sep 11, 2007)

imobile said:


> Give it to Norton et al...


Good one.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

M_Portiss said:


> *Why should I get the 20" iMac when I could get this "blistering" system for $400 less?*


Because:

1. The integration of the OS to the hardware

2. The polish of the extremely advanced OS

3. The *vastly* (can't overstate this enough) superior software included

4. The lack of viruses, poor UI design and general user aggravation

5. The included screen, camera, firewire and keyboard

6. The superior video card

7. The general superiority of Mac third-party software (excluding games)

8. The highest-rated customer service and after-sale support in the industry

9. The thought, vision and care that goes into making the entire experience and

10. The kinder, gentler, smarter and more fun Mac community

are worth way more than $400.

PS. and reason #11 -- the ladies love a Mac man!


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## sae (Feb 13, 2008)

I moved over from PC to mac just over a year now. I know that initially I felt the same way as you did in regards to thinking I got a lower spec'd machine for more money. I also bought my mac before ever using one for more than a few minutes in the store. I got a 20" imac and I cannot tell you the amount of times I have loved the integrated design. No messy cables (just one - the power) and if you need to move it it only takes two seconds and 1 cable instead of 8 million ugly cables and 8 hours to move it. 

The imac is truely a very nice machine and I honestly doubt that you will regret buying it. I have heard VERY few people that go back to a beige windows box. Plus the resale value is so good that if you don't like it you can sell it on Kijiji and only be out a few hundred bucks. I highly doubt that's going to happen though!


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## Z06jerry (Mar 16, 2005)

M_Portiss said:


> I just want re-assurance that going Mac is the way to go. I am not a "power user" by any means, but I do do alot of photo editing and graphical editing.
> 
> Thanks guys! I appreciate the input.
> Matt


Apple - Get a Mac - Watch the TV Ads


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## polywog (Aug 9, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> ...No matter how "cool" of a PC you put together, it still has to run Windows. 'Nuff said.


Or BSD. Or Linux. (Or a host of others.) Just because it's a PC doesn't mean it has to be hobbled


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## polywog (Aug 9, 2007)

M_Portiss said:


> *Why should I get the 20" iMac when I could get this "blistering" system for $400 less?*
> 
> Matt


With the $400 you save, you also have to buy (to get what you'd have with the iMac out of the box.)

* A monitor
* A webcam
* Decent Photo management / video editing found in iLife (not to mention garageband.)
* Something decent to manage Contacts and Calendars
* (EDIT : Forgot to mention WiFi, and Bluetooth.)

At that point, there isn't much difference at all. Add up the hours of hassles you'll have maintaining a windows system, and the choice is clear.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

M_Portiss said:


> *Why should I get the 20" iMac when I could get this "blistering" system for $400 less?*
> 
> I am not "hating" on the iMac, I just want re-assurance that going Mac is the way to go. I am not a "power user" by any means, but I do do alot of photo editing and graphical editing.


Then the 20" iMac will not suit your purposes - since it has the cheap 6-bit LCD rather than the decent 8-bit LCD that the 24" iMac has.

But then, a cheap PC will end up coming with a vastly inferior monitor.

The screen problem is something you will really want to consider, especially since you will need to move or adjust lighting because of the superpolished glossy screens they use. Colour matching will be a real problem with a 6-bit screen, since all of your pictures will be dithered over.

But then, a Mac comes with many of the tools you will need to handle photographs; while on a PC you will end up having to heap up a bunch of software, none of it integrated and all of it dependent upon the Evil Empire's cheezy BMP format...


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I agree somewhat with Evan on the 20" monitor. It has cost Apple a whack of sales and not everyone can afford the extra bread for the admittedly sweet 24" monitor. 

The biggest concern for most users is preparing photos for printing at home or at your local lab. It is pretty much impossible to judge how well an image will print because of that cheap monitor. 

Also viewing has to be pretty much dead centre on the vertical axis as fall off is very noticeable. Your spouse won't be able to peak over your shoulder and get a clear picture.

Another alternative would be the MacMini. The specs aren't nearly as impressive but boot from a fast external 800Mhz Fire Wire drive and you will be amazed how fast these puppies are. Nice thing
is this way you have direct control over monitor quality. 

Only time you need to worry about specs anymore is video editing, gaming and autocad applications.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

All I gotta say is I made the switch to Macs just over 'a year ago from 15 yrs of PCs and I'd never go back to a microshaft product no matter how cheap it is. You get what you pay for too.

I love my Macs, I have a big old G4 desktop that I got for free and it's a great machine. I love my little iBook laptop too.

Funkynassau


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

Been in the same position myself a few years ago. I always upgraded my PCs, having the best gaming system among my friends, running Linux on other systems, etc. Didn't want a 'all-in-one' because they are not upgradable, etc. Bought a Powerbook and never looked back. I've since bought a 20", then 24" iMac, then a MacBook pro (keeping both a desktop and notebook at one time). 

My old desire/need to keep up on what PC hardware was changing, what was the best deal, etc. is done with. Mac may be costing me more, but I don't miss the old way of saving a buck.


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## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

Thanks for the replies and PMs guys. BTW, my wife loved the "chick-magnet" approach.. LOL

I am most definitely to the "I just want it to work" stage. I am all kernaled out and tired of hunting for more efficient video drivers. 

As far as the 20" monitor goes, is it really that bad? The ones I have played with in the stores look phenomenal. I have a Samsung 21" that I would be keeping so I guess I will have that to compare. I have used it for a few years for photos and nothing ever came out wonky there. (Wow, Firefox has no issue with the word "Wonky" apparently it is a real word.... anyway, I digress....)

The only issue I have to the "You get what you pay for" argument is the fact that I paid $500 for my system 5 years ago, and all I have have _had_ to replace is the video card and the power supply. But, add to that the COUNTLESS re-installs and the ridiculous amount of time I have spent tracking down trivial malware and tricky viruses...... My time adds up. Having a 10 month old, I have no time for that stuff anymore!

I got a little demo of "iMovie" today. I am absolutely blown away by the simplicity of that software. Hard to believe it _comes_ with the system. Wow, does the keyboard ever annoy me. The system really is a beautiful piece of kit.

_*This may require a new topic, but I figure I would give it a shot....*_

How does iPhoto stack up against "aperture 2"? 

I have watched demos on the apple site, and it seems as though aperture 2 is really user friendly. I have always found CS3 and even CS4 clumsy and overbearing. I have been using Gimp for the better part of a year now, and I am glad Ubuntu had it off the hop. 

Thanks for the link to the commercials. I really think Apple has done a great job in marketing here lately. I must admit, if it were not for my recent iPhone pick-up and the hilariously common sense advertising, I would not even be considering a Mac. 

Thanks again for all you guys' input.

**edit**

Just remembered another requirement I have.. Software.

I need the following programs...

A SOLID FTP program.
A newsgroup reader.
I am not sure if I need a video converter. Seems like iMovie is sufficient, but I am not sure.
A "Magic-disc" like program for mounting and un-mounting. 

Thanks again.

Matt


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

Re: the Aperture question - I'm a Lightroom user, but both it and Aperture are truly professional tools and far more powerful than iPhoto. I've never been much of an iPhoto fan - I don't like the lack of control over how it catalogues stuff etc. I've been an extremely happy Lightroom user since December. It helped me keep my sanity as I organized and edited over 8000 photos (mine and dozens of other parents) for my son's school yearbook and I'm looking forward to having more fun with it with my own photos. I hardly use Photoshop any more for basic corrections - and when I do, I find its interface clumsy when compared to Lightroom. (I do use Photoshop for lots of other things though) I chose Lightroom over Aperture because I liked the integration with CS4, but it was a real toss-up. I think you'd be happy with either.

If you want to compare iPhoto and Aperture, there are several comparisons online:

Aperture 2 Impressions from an iPhoto User | MacApper
Aperture vs Iphoto - The Photo Forum - Photography Discussion Forum

BTW - iPhoto comes with an iMac, and you can download the free 30-day trial version of Aperture to see how it compares first hand. Adobe also offer a 30-day trial version of Lightroom. Adobe Lightroom Free Trial - Lightroom 30 Day Free Trial Download | PhotoshopSupport.com

There are a number of very good FTP programs for the Mac - I like and use Transmit, which is shareware ($25, I think). Fetch is another one - it's $10. And there are a number of free ones as well, including Cyberduck, Classic FTP and FileZilla, as well as a nifty Firefox plugin called FireFTP.

I know there are a number of good newsgroup readers for the Mac - but I'll let those who use them weigh in on that.


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## greydoggie (Apr 21, 2009)

Some people say they notice a difference between the 20" and 24" monitor but a lot of people don't. When I was looking for a iMac 1st I wanted a 20" one but then after hearing about the 24" ones being better I started looking at them instead. And since I'm going to be keeping it for a while I didn't want to end up getting stuck with a 20" monitor when everyone else is getting 24" ones or bigger. Since you are using a 5 year old $500 computer now even one of the cheaper iMacs would probably work for you. I would just look at what programs you want to use and look at the macs on apple's website or in a store and go from there. And if you are stuck with a program that needs windows you can always use it on your old computer or put windows on the mac.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

M_Portiss said:


> Thanks for the replies and PMs guys. BTW, my wife loved the "chick-magnet" approach.. LOL


See??



> As far as the 20" monitor goes, is it really that bad?


No, it's not. It's just not the best quality available. Compared to almost any older consumer monitors, it looks great. It's only when you stack it against the 24" iMac or something using the same screen technology that the 20" low viewing angles and older/cheaper colour dithering become obvious.

Contrary to what EP and others claim, commercial artists have been producing print-ready, colour-accurate ads/photos using the same technology (or worse) for years. It's obviously better to have the best, but in the real world that's not always what you have to work with. Earlier LCDs were WAY worse than the 20" iMac today.



> I got a little demo of "iMovie" today. I am absolutely blown away by the simplicity of that software. Hard to believe it _comes_ with the system.


Wait till you explore the rest of the iLife suite. It's all pretty phenomenal. The current version of iMovie got a rough start but the 09 version is pretty darn wonderful.



> How does iPhoto stack up against "aperture 2"?


It doesn't really, they are aimed at two entirely different markets. iPhoto is a great, easy-to-use photo organiser that features some surprisingly good -- but very basic and limited -- correction/enhancement tools, but the entire package is CLEARLY aimed at consumers.

Aperture is part of a workflow solution for professional and semi-pro photographers. It offers superior technology for organising and comparing photos, and some tools to correct photos, but is in no way intended to replace Photoshop, more to act as a complement (Adobe's own Lightroom competes directly with Aperture in this market, and if you fit the profile of someone who needs this level of program you should compare both to see which should get your money).



> Thanks for the link to the commercials. I really think Apple has done a great job in marketing here lately. *I must admit, if it were not for my recent iPhone pick-up and the hilariously common sense advertising, I would not even be considering a Mac.*


I'm saving that for future use. 



> I need the following programs...
> 
> A SOLID FTP program.
> A newsgroup reader.
> ...



1. Plenty of solid FTP programs for the Mac, too many in fact (it should be mentioned that there is UNIX-level FTP and SFTP services built into the core OS, you can use the Terminal to access them). I've used a wide variety of the more "graphical" ones but keep coming back to Cyberduck (free, open-source) and Transmit or Forklift (about $30), but there are many options, including a number of cross-platform ones you may have used before (like Filezilla). Here's a handy list of some FTP apps, arranged in order of poplarity. Read the comments and see what you think.

2. My favourite newsgroup reader is by the same people who make Transmit, a company called Panic, and their newsreader is called Unison. It's not like any other newsreader you've EVER used, so it might be too "exotic" for you. With "traditional" newsreaders you can use everything from PINE up to Thoth. Here's a similar list of newsreaders for you to check out. Free ones include MT-Newswatcher (which is OLLLLD but still updated) and Pineapple.

3. Yes, you probably need a video converter. Since there are so many damn video formats out there, making your Mac read them all is a little tricky. First up, you need to add three free downloads to your arsenal: Flip4Mac Player (aka Microsoft Components for QuickTime), which allows most WMV files to play in the QuickTime player; Perian, which allows most other formats to play, and VLC, an alternate player with more features/versatility than the QuickTime player.

The best video converter I ever came across was iSquint/VisualHub (iSquint was the free version), but it is sadly discontinued. You might find a copy if you hunt. One uses these (or the free MPEG Streamclip etc) to convert various formats of video into the One True Format, mp4/h.264, which is used on many devices, most importantly the iPod. 

Other tools include Handbrake for converting DVDs to computer-friendly formats. The latest version seems to be claiming to do (almost) it all, that's great.

Your last request for a "Magic disc" like mounting/unmounting program I'll let others chime in on, as I'm not quite sure what you mean there. There is sufficient mounting/unmounting technology (for removables, drives and network drives) already in place in the Mac OS for my needs.


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## countryharvest (May 24, 2009)

*Macpro*

I would invest in a macpro because of its expandability, not worth buying a laptop or imac you'll always want to upgrade anyways...take my advice I've been using for a decade, buy a macpro (used ones are good too)


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

I switched a couple of years ago, and have never regretted it for one moment. I have a 24' iMac which is now two years old, and a MacBook Pro, which I bought last October, refurbed.
I agree with Evan on the 20"screen, though. 
I am a huge fan of refurb, just because it has worked so well for me. I would buy a 24" iMac from the refurb store and put AppleCare on it.
Once you have worked with the level of integration between the user interface and that lean, mean Unix OS, you will NEVER want to go back. I love the fact that my Macs just work. The only significant "support" work that I do with my family is on the PCs.


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## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

mc3251 said:


> I switched a couple of years ago, and have never regretted it for one moment. I have a 24' iMac which is now two years old, and a MacBook Pro, which I bought last October, refurbed.
> I agree with Evan on the 20"screen, though.
> I am a huge fan of refurb, just because it has worked so well for me. I would buy a 24" iMac from the refurb store and put AppleCare on it.
> Once you have worked with the level of integration between the user interface and that lean, mean Unix OS, you will NEVER want to go back. I love the fact that my Macs just work. The only significant "support" work that I do with my family is on the PCs.



Wow, that really throws a wrench in the works. 

The 24" refurb is the same price as the new 20". Considering I can get Applecare for the refurb, should I consider the refurb? It seems as though they are not the current "generation" however they seem comparable to the current ones. 

Should a refurb be considered? Agh, more questions!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

M_Portiss said:


> Wow, that really throws a wrench in the works.
> 
> The 24" refurb is the same price as the new 20". Considering I can get Applecare for the refurb, should I consider the refurb? It seems as though they are not the current "generation" however they seem comparable to the current ones.
> 
> Should a refurb be considered? Agh, more questions!


You are getting a full warranty so I see no reason not to consider a refurb.

It should be noted that many graphic artists and photographers continued to use CRTs as they waited for the "modern" monitor to improve. If your interest is in photography or anything that is colour critical go with the 24" iMac. You won't regret it.


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## mkolesa (Jul 22, 2008)

*~*

the recent changes to the imac line have been 'speed bump' updates meaning the processor speed has been moderately increased. so buying an older imac now will not be a significant compromise. however, keep in mind there's always something new coming and intel's next generation chip set is in the wings, although it may not be available until late in the year and then you still wouldn't have the option of going the refurb route (it takes awhile for machines to show up in the refurb supply lane). so if i wanted an imac now i'd have no hesitation going refurb and as you already know, getting applecare is a must!


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Get the refurb....all my Mac's have been purchased that way...cheaper and same warranty.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
iPhoto for general purpose use, while Aperture is for professional, heavy duty use. I find iPhoto to be quite satisfactory for most tasks, though cataloging is a stumbling block, so if you are going to deal with thousands and thousands of photos, or want additional built in processing, Aperture is a way to go.

I couple that with Graphic Converter X, which will do the most basic photo or graphcs editing, like scaling, cropping, sizing, changing the dpi for various uses, converting to and from other formats, etc.

Things like FTP and Newsgroups are easy peasy, there are lots to pick from. Use the standard sites, like the downloads section at Apple.Com, or mac.softpedia.com, or pure-mac.com, where there are lots of applications to be had.

iMovie will be entirely insufficient, since it handles only a small smattering of formats. You will need a few tools to keep you from getting too annoyed, the first being Perian, which will give you pretty much every Codec you will need. This will enable formats that are not in the standard core libraries. You may also want Flip4Mac if you need to view WMV. Converting is a big thing, especially since there are so many formats kicking around, and new ones all the time. VisualHub / iSquint are now discontinued, though still entirely valuable to have; but HandBrake is also excellent. You can easily convert formats like AVI or SWF to M4P, which will then easily play in iTunes, etc. You may also want VLC, so you can watch movies without having to import them into iMovie - many people use VLC for a wide variety of purposes.

Audio is pretty much a no brainer, the Mac is entirely at home with standard formats like AIFF, AAC, M4P and MP3. You may want the freeware XLD converter that will let you deal with FLAC files easily. You may also want something that can handle APE format, Googling will point the way to that end.

You don't need "magic disk" or any of that poop you get stuck with with Windoze. OSX automagically handles mounting and unmounting. Plug an external in, it will mount. When you want to unmount, you either highlight the drive icon and menu to Eject, or just pull the drive over to the trash can (which will change to the Eject arrow). Easy peasy. Sometimes a reluctant drive needs to be cajoled, which is a task for Disk Utility (which is built in), but normally that is for drives that are unformatted or drives that are failing or have some odd problem.

As for the monitor, don't fool yourself. Many aftermarket monitors that are "cheap" will also be 6-bit. It all comes down to what you want to do. If you want to do photo editing, colour matching, or simply want a rich display that actually renders the "millions of colours" mode correctly - then you will need to either buy an refurb 20" iMac that has an 8-bit LCD, or go with the 24" iMac (or go with a MacMini with your own 8-bit LCD monitor).

If on the other hand, you are mostly surfing the web, or typing letters, or e-mailing, or listening to music, a 6-bit monitor may be adequate, though you will not have the ability to actually use the "millions of colours" mode. It is like an audiophile, but in this case, a videophile. For casual users, who may be only looking at snapshots and sending them off to a lab with little or no processing, a 6-bit monitor may be fine. But if you want to be more serious, like a hard core amatuer or hobbiest, or simply someone that wants to have a high quality screen that has a wide viewing angle, then the 8-bit is the way to go. Of course, coming from Windoze, even a 6-bit Apple LCD will look awesome, since Windoze itself looks so bad and cartoonish with it's cheap 256 colour mode. With that, even the lowest Apple "thousands of colours" mode will look spectacular.

Another point is whether or not you can control the lighting situation. The newer Apple LCDs are super glossy, almost mirror like, which can be a real problem if you can't control or adjust lighting. You should consider this when you are checking them out, because in some cases, glossy is no problem (like at my friend's home office where we adjusted everything to minimize glare; to a very real problem (like at my other friend's workplace, where the computer is to the north, with a giant window opening to the south, which makes the monitor unusable for the afternoon.

In converting from Windoze - you will find that you need less "stuff". Instead of endless numbers of codecs or converters that Windoze seems to need, a handful of standard programs will do the same but without the conflicts and crashes. Perian, HandBrake and VLC for Video; XLD or some other converter for Audio. Much usefulness is built in, so you don't need garbage like ACDSee because OSX has Preview built in; or the lack of need to download a ton of standard software because OSX will come with such usefulness as iTunes, QuickTime, Mail, Safari, iPhoto, etc. For those things that are inadequate, there are standard packages that are entirely acceptable, like FireFox, Thunderbird, etc., stuff you would need on Windoze anyways, but way easier to install and maintain.

The only other thing is system maintenance. Unlike Windoze which has tens of thousands of programs you may or may not need - there are some standard packages that are entirely useful for OSX, like Cocktail or Onyx for the items of maintenance that are not automagic for OSX, CandyBar to replace system icons with ones that are not as ugly as that which comes with OSX, etc. But then again, you will not have to do too much to maintain an OSX system once you get it going the way you want.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

A friend of mine is a total Mac lover and he is a graphic artist. He bought a refurb iMac for about $600 Canadian and he just loves it! It has the full warranty on it and there's been no problems with it. It came by courier and was delivered quickly. I'd buy a refurb if I was going to buy another Mac.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

chas_m said:


> 10. The kinder, gentler, *smarter* and more fun Mac community


Being a smug intellectual elitist, I see? And people here wonder why some are so reluctant to buy a Mac... 



chas_m said:


> PS. and reason #11 -- the ladies love a Mac man!



I'm pretty sure ladies love someone who spends time with them and just generally keeps himself polite and clean. Any women here can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that one's computer does not factor into the equation.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

polywog said:


> Or BSD. Or Linux. (Or a host of others.) Just because it's a PC doesn't mean it has to be hobbled


Or OS X. Some day, I will get my Thinkpad running Apple's OS, much like this guy did: 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3418/3188675868_e820f51b06.jpg


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

As a woman I like the brain of a guy who loves and appreciates Macs!


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

broken_g3 said:


> Being a smug intellectual elitist, I see?


Not a bit. It's a fact:

Are Mac users smarter? - CNET News

Mac News: Tech Buzz: Are Mac Users Smarter Than PC Users?

If you've got studies that contradict this, please present them.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

chas_m said:


> Not a bit. It's a fact:
> 
> Are Mac users smarter? - CNET News
> 
> ...


I would hardly call these "studies", these are more like "coincidences". Mac users tend to be wealthier and thus have more money to spend on overpriced hardware. Isn't it kinda like saying "Are BMW drivers smarter than Honda drivers?" Or "Are people who wear Burberry smarter than people who wear regular non-ripoff clothes?" Or, heaven forbid, "Are rich CEOs smarter than the Accountants who work tirelessly for them, but can never for the life of them get a bloody promotion because the rich f*cking CEOs always hire their damn incompetant kids to do the work?" Is it kinda like that??? 

Dammit, people wonder why PC users hate us so much or why so many people are so reluctant to try out Macs. We come across as a bunch of smug Starbucks sippers, and they don't want to associate with that!!!!


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

Boy I dont know where you get your theories from but the people I know who have Macs are not rich, and neither am I. The only person I know who bought a Mac brand new is my brother and even he got it on sale! Everyone else has used ones and I have two that I got for free!

I am not a latte drinker, never go to Starbucks, dont even like coffee no matter what you do with it. Nothing la de dah about me at all, just a down to earth, easy going, guitar playing, former hippy! I dont fit the mould you describe at all and neither do my mac friends.

I never hated mac people when I used a pc exclusively; I was curious about them (the computers) but that was about it. I love my Macs now that I have them, they just work, they dont give me grief, they function as they should and that's all I want.

I have a mac friend who told me - back in my pc days - that mac people pity pc people because pc people dont know how much fun and how easy a computer can be to use. I didnt get it then, but I get it now. I'm not trying to start an argument, just offering up my two cents worth.
Funkynassau


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

Funkynassau said:


> Boy I dont know where you get your theories from but the people I know who have Macs are not rich, and neither am I. The only person I know who bought a Mac brand new is my brother and even he got it on sale! Everyone else has used ones and I have two that I got for free!


Wow we are on different planets. Everyone I know who has a Mac are the people who either:

a) Have a lot of money to spend and splurge on the latest and newest model

or 

b) Fail at using computers in general and go to the Mac because they heard it has no viruses and they were too stupid to get AVG to scan ON AT LEAST ONE OCCASION. 

or 

c) Like shiny things and buy Macs because the people in groups a or b bought them

or

d) People who are like me, who have been using Macs before they were cool, back when Apple had the logo that looked like it was thought up by someone on speed, and just continue to buy them because we are used to the interface and cannot imagine our lives without at least one Mac, and Steve Jobs continues to sucker us in to buying something he made. 


It's interesting to see other peoples' perspectives on things... most people I know who are strapped for cash just go hunting for computers in Kensington market...


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

Back when I lived in TO I did shop in Kensington Market but now I live in Bruce County where men are men and sheep are nervous! This is a land of PCs here, my neighbour down the road and I are the only mac people around here, the next one I know of is my guitar teacher and he lives about 20 miles from me. It's impossible to buy Mac stuff around here, you have to go to Owen Sound as there's a new Mac store there, or south to Kitchener/Waterloo. 

I've been thru it all in 15 yrs of pcs and we still have one, and my husband uses it. When it dies it'll be replaced by a mac. Son has a Dell laptop that doesnt work right...all in all we have 3 pcs and 2 macs.

I am not a squirrel so I dont collect shiny things, I just like my Mac! It's got nothing to do with prestige as that doesnt interest me at all, and I am the least pretentious person you are likely to meet. I've had my share of the dreaded BSOD, I've done all nighters with geek pc friends who were fixing my pc for me when it died on me for no apparent reason. I've been hijacked, I've had a video card up and die in the middle of the magazine I was working on...I learned to change power supplies, dead RAM, add RAM, put in various cards, install CD ROM drives, all sorts of things, out of necessity. Cant say I liked it either. So far this old G4 of mine that I got for free from my Apple tech friend out west has been wonderful. He gave me an iBook too. 

For sure there will be those people who are show offs and get some sort of strange pleasure out of having the latest and greatest Mac and that's fine for them, but not everyone is that way. My brother is a cheapskate, and his pc died so he bought an iMac. He loves it. He is very resistant to change so this was a big deal to him, and hard to do, but he's very glad he did. 

I think we are on the same planet, just coming at it from different directions.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

broken_g3 said:


> Wow we are on different planets.


You are unquestionably on your own planet.



> most people I know who are strapped for cash just go hunting for computers in Kensington market...


If *cheap* is the bottom line, then one gets a *cheap* pos computer. I have owned many of those.

When one grows up a little, one begins to learn that sometimes paying a bit more for things of good ***value*** works out better in the long (and short) run. It took me a while to learn this lesson too, but strangely I have always found that the more you focus on good VALUE, the less you have to worry about the cost because you will probably be able to afford it. Maybe that's just me.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

IMO the Mac community and culture can be a totally separate question from the decision to buy or not buy a Mac. I for one do not appreciate being characterized or stereotyped because I own a Mac. I like good coffee, I'm far from rich and some days I'm not very smart at all. I'm a Mac user because of the inherent characteristics of the tool/platform. Tight integration between OS and user interface. Ease of use, maintenance and stability. Lack of viruses and malicious code. High quality, clean, well designed hardware. Snappy performance. Much better long term value than a garden variety PC.

Chas gave a list earlier in the thread which says it well, but whether one chooses to align him or herself with the Mac community is largely irrelevant in choosing to buy a Mac or not. It's a large family, but you don't have to marry into it to become a Mac user.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

chas_m said:


> If *cheap* is the bottom line, then one gets a *cheap* pos computer. I have owned many of those.
> 
> When one grows up a little, one begins to learn that sometimes paying a bit more for things of good ***value*** works out better in the long (and short) run. It took me a while to learn this lesson too, but strangely I have always found that the more you focus on good VALUE, the less you have to worry about the cost because you will probably be able to afford it. Maybe that's just me.


Should I mention one of these "cheap" computers was a G3 iMac? Had everything... keyboard, stupid hockey puck mouse, even OS X. Remember, it does not necessarily have to be a PC that someone has tossed...


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

mc3251 said:


> Chas gave a list earlier in the thread which says it well, but whether one chooses to align him or herself with the Mac community is largely irrelevant in choosing to buy a Mac or not. It's a large family, but you don't have to marry into it to become a Mac user.


What is funny is some of the people who consider themselves to be integral parts of this Mac community, this Mac family, were the same kind of people who were mocking me for buying a $3000 Macintosh back in 1997.


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

I've been on the edge of switching for a few YEARS now. It's been very hard to justify the extra money for a mac but a few things never go away:

I'm getting more and more frustrated with typical PC's. The noise of loud fans, having to reformat my hard drive every time Windows gets messed up, the big ugly boxes... I'm just getting sick of it. After 25 years, I've been ready to jump ship.... it's just the extra cost that bugs me... only because I just don't have the extra to spare. 

Somehow, I'm going to have to scrape up the extra few $hundred to get one because I want STYLE, Stability and **SILENCE**! To get a PC with silent parts would cost about as much as the mac anyway! 

Someone please tell me mac minis and iMacs are 99% totally silent! No fan noise... please! I can't stand computer noise any longer!

Now that the mini has the GeForce 9400, it can play some WoW for a little bit of fun on the side, which is all I really want. It'll be good to get away from all the Windows games I'm fairly addicted to.  No - I refuse to become a WoW addict too!


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

They are very nearly silent. :clap:


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

My neighbour has a Mac Mini and it's darn close to silent. Even my G4 is pretty quiet. The PC chugging away on the other side of my office is freakin' loud in comparison!


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

Would it be fan noise or hard drive klunking you hear on those minis? I can't stand fan noise any longer and I'm getting the impression that while they're quiet, they're not silent. This is in a very quiet room - I *DON'T* want to hear any more fans!!  XX)


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

I wanted to swap out the 7200 RPM hard drive in my iMac for a faster 10,000 RPM model, but then I remembered how noisy the dual SCSIs in my beige G3 were, so I kinda went down the "Errr... I'd rather not" route.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

BlueMax said:


> I've been on the edge of switching for a few YEARS now. It's been very hard to justify the extra money for a mac


I get this, but surely this ...



> The noise of loud fans, having to reformat my hard drive every time Windows gets messed up, the big ugly boxes... I'm just getting sick of it.


... has cost you more over the years?

In any event, you can put your curiosity to the test: just go visit a good independent Apple Retailer on a slow day (I'd have said visit an Apple Store, but they NEVER have slow days) and hang around the iMacs and Mac minis and listen for yourself. Though both devices have fans in them, the iMac in particular uses convection cooling (aka "heat rises") to keep the fans at an absolute minimum. The mini has to vent heat in the "normal" way but IME is -- particularly compared to most PCs -- very quiet.


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

chas_m said:


> In any event, you can put your curiosity to the test: just go visit a good independent Apple Retailer on a slow day (I'd have said visit an Apple Store, but they NEVER have slow days) and hang around the iMacs and Mac minis and listen for yourself. Though both devices have fans in them, the iMac in particular uses convection cooling (aka "heat rises") to keep the fans at an absolute minimum. The mini has to vent heat in the "normal" way but IME is -- particularly compared to most PCs -- very quiet.


Most stores are FAR too loud to hear a quiet fan so I'm leaning on you guys who own minis and iMacs. I'm after as close to silence as I can get... I would really, REALLY hate to spend the extra only to have it almost as noisy as the desktop Dell I'm using now. :-(


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

The only noise I hear from our iMac is the external backup drive as that case has a small fan that sometimes spins up...otherwise its silent. The mini I had was the same...they're very near silent.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah, my iMac is pretty quiet too. I was going to swap out the 7,200 rpm drive for a faster 10,000 rpm one, but then I remembered how annoying the dual SCSI drives in my beige G3 got when the room became silent at night. 



BlueMax said:


> I'm getting more and more frustrated with typical PC's. The noise of loud fans, having to reformat my hard drive every time Windows gets messed up, the big ugly boxes...


Strangely enough, I have only once needed to reformat one of my Windows computers. Most of the time major problems, I find, can be fixed with a quick trip to regedit. Before I got my iMac, my "powerful" computer was a Dell Dimension 8400. I didn't mind the way it looked, and I never really found it to be too loud, but then again it spent its entire life in a cubby under my desk, coming out only a few times to upgrade RAM and the graphics card.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
You are in the tiny minority, along with my girlfriend who has never had to reinstall Windoze. Most people have greivous problems with Windoze, and at the College, they somehow copy an image of Windoze over all of the machines on a daily basis, and the main drive is set to read-only, because otherwise, they would be down most of the time (not that they don't crash and burn regularly during the day).

When I ran Windoze for work a few years ago, I had innumerable problems with it, and usually ended up reinstalling the system every month or so. There was nothing wrong with the machine, after I had traded it, the guy has run Linux on it entirely stable for at least four years. However, one major problem wasn't caused by Windoze - it was caused by some proprietary software that had been written in Belarus that simply dispensed all kinds of viruses and trojans - so many that the system simply caved because of the conflicts. But because as an authorized dealer, we needed the information from the program, the system was continually afflicted with the Automatic Infant virus. That was settled in the end because of a lawsuit brought forth by the dealers in the US, which lead to the info being distributed by PDF, rather than proprietary virus dispensing software.

But I digress. If someone had been running a Windoze system that has been continually stable, it is simply because they installed everything at once, then has left it in that state. Uninstalling software usually has unintended consequences for Windoze, or installing too many pieces of software that conflict with each other, especially when it comes to different "drivers" that are needed for everything - since nothing seems to actually be built into core libraries like in a real OS.

For switchers - there are huge benefits for using OSX when it comes to anything Web related, as well as anything photographic or graphic. However, the downside is that CAD is pretty much absent from the OSX world, and there are some annoyances, like the lack of support for ASCII text, or the fact that it has a want of putting resource forks all over anything that is FAT formatted for Windoze. Not that the resource forks are so annoying, it is the time OSX takes to generate all of the forks and the creation of the .Trashes file - so irritating that I basically gave up on trying to use a Keychain drive to transfer data. But these are small things, overall OSX will offer far more than Windoze can ever possible give (with the exception of some niches like CAD/CAM, ASCII text).

Perhaps the biggest annoyance is the fact that developers regularly drop support for earlier versions of OSX, while equivalent software in the Windoze world generally will run on a much longer list of versions. I also find the installation of OSX to be inflexible, with irritating things like it's insistence on installing multiple languages that will never be used, or installing endless libraries of printer drivers that will never be used, or installing "features" that rob a system of performance wihout adding any benefit. But then again, Windoze is pretty much the same - it is just that there is a large set of hacks and programs that can remedy such things.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm actually really good at installing windoze, due to having done it enough times. But the PC we have now I bought, custom made for me, about 6-7 yrs ago and it's got a really early XP Pro on it that does not cause grief. There was no chance I'd upgrade to vista, you can keep that POS. If it aint broke, dont fix it.

My husband has often said the computer runs fine til you try to do something to it, like add new software or a new printer etc. Then all hell breaks loose. He's got that right! I recently wasted an hour or more trying to get the printer to work because son had unplugged it's USB cable and it lost it's brain...I had to uninstall it then go get a new driver and reinstall it and fiddle around with it. What a pain!

I'll stick to my G4 QuickSilver, it works fine.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

It never ceases to amaze me how many problems people have with modern Windows operating systems. I know people who have had trouble getting an old printer to install under Vista, which is Microsoft's fault for not paying attention to these details, but come on- unplugging a printer in XP and having it go haywire? How the hell do you all manage to do this? 

Most of the ridiculous problems described here sound like the sh*t I had to deal with in Windows 9x, which is (thank God) now extinct. Maybe the problem is with poorly programmed device drivers and not the OS itself?


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

As much as the above is true about poor drivers, etc... sometimes Windows just does nutty things. I've done all my own tech work since the DOS days but I'm often installing and removing programs, changing hardware every so often... Sometimes things just don't work because of the many possible hardware combinations, I guess.

Surely apple is more stable for OTHER reasons than the lack of millions of hardware combinations? I'm sure Windoze would be more stable if there were only a half dozen motherboards and a few video cards to support. 

Still, I'm more interested in total silence. A silent PC costs as much or more than a mac unless it's an anemic Atom rig.


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## Mr.Tickles (Mar 25, 2009)

Ive never heard of a winbox having trouble with USB. I thought USB was supposed to ALLOW hotplugging and stuff no problem.

On the other hand, I've seen brand new XP boxes slow to a crawl for no apparent reason. My girlfriend's computer did that multiple times - it's not connected to the internet, nothing installed, and only Word and TV Tuner used.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm the one who's printer crapped out when son unplugged the USB cable. I was surprised at that too. It's an old Lexmark POS all in one I got from freecycle for hubby to use. I had to download the driver for it, XP didnt have it. I got it going and it was ok til it got unplugged. I was puzzled for sure, and checked it all out and in the end I had to uninstall and reinstall the driver. It's now working as well as a POS can.

Funkynassau


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## Mr.Tickles (Mar 25, 2009)

Lexmarks have never really impressed me, or at least the cheap ones.
I got an all-in-one from bestbuy a while ago, and when i bought my macbook, i discovered there's no OSX drivers for it... wtf.

So I have to run bootcamp in order to use it (so most of the time i just carry my computer over to the other printer, an HP.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

It is worth what I paid for it - nothing! Hubby only every printed text so it didnt need to be good for his uses, and it isnt. He had a lovely Canon printer that died when it self destructed after X # of cart. changes. Apparently you can only do that so many times before the print head dies. I learned that from a lot of online searching and talking to Canon. They wanted me to send them the printer and they'd replace the print head for $50. Well I only paid $60 for it in the first place and it was well past warranty, so I'd have to be a real fool to do that. So I put a plea on freecycle for a printer for hubby to use and took this lexmark. It's ok if you just want to print text. Me? I'll stick to my trusty HP.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

Until I got my iMac, I was still using my ancient Epson Stylus as my main printer. Though it was really old, it was super, super reliable, had good print quality, and very cheap to maintain. But, needless to say, I'm much happier with the networked colour laser I have now.


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## Mr.Tickles (Mar 25, 2009)

Color lasers are full of win.
If they didnt cost so much I'd buy one.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

I love the comment on the cost of color lasers. I'm probably (actually doutbtless) dating myself but they seem incredibly cheap to me today. I remember when HP Laserjet 300 DPI bw printers were two grand!
Besides, I think that ink jet printers actually produce a better image, dont they?


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

mc3251 said:


> I love the comment on the cost of color lasers. I'm probably (actually doutbtless) dating myself but they seem incredibly cheap to me today. I remember when HP Laserjet 300 DPI bw printers were two grand!


Yeah, they are ridiculously cheap compared to what even black and white laser printers used to be. My HP color LaserJet cost me $399.99 from Future Shop, and at the time I bought it they had some sort of mail-in rebate, so I got it for even less. The problem is the toner; my wife and I were going all printer-happy since I got it, then the time came to replace the toner. $109. Needless to say, I've been printer-frugal since.



mc3251 said:


> Besides, I think that ink jet printers actually produce a better image, dont they?


The image quality is either comparable or superior to any inkjet I've ever seen. The important thing to remember is that it can print high-quality pages much much much faster than any inkjet printer. On the topic of quality, I've noticed with my Epson stylus that some pictures I printed a decade or so ago have faded noticeably. Apparently, this is a common problem with inkjets.


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## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

Ok guys.. last question, I promise.... Then I will let you guys get back to your "superiority argument..." LOL

I have narrowed it down to the new 20" iMac and a refurbished 24" iMac. They are the same price, and the specs are pretty close...

Specs are:

20"
2.66GHz Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR3
320GB hard drive
8x Superdrive
nVidia 9400M

24"
2.8GHz Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR2
320GB hard drive
8x Superdrive
ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO



According to the Apple site, the 24" is only upgradable to 4GB of DDR2. The 20" is upgradable to 8GB of DDR3. Now, I am certain 8GB of DDR3 would be STUPID fast, however, would 4GB of DDR2 be satisfactory? 

I have read both ways regarding the video cards. Seems like some guys love the ATI and some guys love the nVidia. I have only ever used nVidia, so I am in a bubble.


Thanks for all the help!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

A no brainer for me. The 24" has the by far superior monitor quality, hands down.


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## BlueMax (Aug 8, 2005)

24" No question.


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## countryharvest (May 24, 2009)

*24"*

Faster processor will be ideal for snow leopard and graphics.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

If you are concerned about performance, the 24" is actually way better. It has a real graphics card, not integrated graphics in disguise. It's got a more powerful processor. My iMac has DDR2 800 memory, and my Thinkpad has DDR3 1066... I really do not notice any difference between them, except maybe in video games. Despite being less powerful, my Thinkpad can play video games as well as or better than my iMac.

The only thing that may bother you is the freakishly large screen. This is the only thing that made me buy a 20" back in January... I wanted a computer, not an HDTV.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

The 24" is by far a better machine.

As for memory - more memory does not make your computer "faster" - unless you have some gigantic program (like a crazy sized SQL database or some kind of video rendering or giant FFT matrix for convolution/deconvolution work) that swallows memory and is hitting the swap too much. Any possible advantage of DDR3 will be more than subtracted by the less raw instruction cycles available on a 2.66GHz machine.

Then it comes down to it - the advantage will entirely be ruined by a video system that shares the main memory, with lost performance as video is refreshed many times a second, and memory lost to the video and no longer being available for applications, not to mention the lost performace as the video processor has to work to dither the colours from 8-bit to 6-bit for the cheap 20" LCDs that don't make the grade.

If they are roughly the same price, the 24" is a far better deal, and will carry far more value into the future because many people will avoid the dithered 20" models because they are not good for any photgraphic style work, or anything were rendering is important...


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

When I bought my 24", 18 months ago I went to a local reseller and looked at them side by side. I took a disc of my own photos. Colour saturation, angle of view-the 24 had it hands down.
Mine is "old" now-it's a 2.4 ghz mid 2007 model-it is still plenty fast. 
I have never increased the memory beyond 2gb


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm in with the majority -- the 24" is the better deal for a variety of reasons. 4GB of DDR2 should do you nicely for a long time to come, and by the time you need a new machine again, the RAM spec will be (again) stupidly higher/better than it is now.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

chas_m said:


> and by the time you need a new machine again, the RAM spec will be (again) stupidly higher/better than it is now.


Naw, the RAM spec hasn't gotten too ridiculous. My G3 was using PC 66 RAM, and now they're up to DDR3 1066. One lousy gigahert in 12 years, what do you call that?


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## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

Well guys, just a quick update here..

Ended up picking up a refurbished 24" iMac for $1561 shipped to my door.

Should be here early next week. I went to my local Mac store tonight (The Mac Outpost) and spoke to the salesman about refurbed vs. new and he said I would be a moron to get a new one when I could get the refurb for that price.

Thanks to all that helped! Hopefully I can get past the learning curve! 

I'll update this thread when I get it and give you all a rundown.

Thanks again
Matt


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

THANKS for the update, and congrats! I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Please feel free to post questions. I might also suggest finding out if there's a Mac User Group in your area.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

Congrats on your new purchase! I bet you just love it. Sure it's a bit of a learning curve but I didnt find it too steep at all.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

the one thing I found was that I had to stop thinking like a Windows user in figuring out how to do stuff. There are some great resources "Switch 101", etc on Apple's website which can really help. I found that having worked with Windows for so many years their design philosophy was really entrenched in my thinking. This is what needs to change, and it's not hard as long as you remain open to thinking differently.

Hard to explain-it's still early here and I'm on my first coffee. You'll see what I mean.
Enjoy.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

I know what you mean! I had a pc for 15 yrs so I truly had a windoze mindset so I had to learn to think differently, and actually think simpler too. It takes more steps to do something on a pc than a Mac, for the most part.

I was constantly blown away when learning how iWorks and iLife all worked together so you could easily do what you wanted to do. The fact it all just worked was a huge amazement to me!

Funkynassau


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Hey! Welcome to the Mac.

My post may be too late, but keep in mind that you do not need to buy the extended warranty at the time you purchase a Mac; it can be purchased at any time within the initial one year warranty. An advantage of getting the extended warranty earlier, however, is that Apple only gives 90 days of phone support with the factory warranty, whereas the extended warranty includes phone support as soon as you register it (whether inside the factory warranty term or not). This phone support ends when the extended warranty itself ends (so, you get three years phone support, all told).


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

Oh, and broken_g3's racial profiling of Mac users is absolute baloney.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

Macaholic said:


> Oh, and broken_g3's racial profiling of Mac users is absolute baloney.


First of all, I mentioned that *10 days ago*. I had to look through this thread to find the post. Can't we talk about something more recent?

Second of all, I was merely stating the facts as I saw them. I'm not "profiling", I'm telling you the current state of all the Mac users I know, including myself.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

broken_g3 said:


> First of all, I mentioned that *10 days ago*. I had to look through this thread to find the post. Can't we talk about something more recent?
> 
> Second of all, I was merely stating the facts as I saw them. I'm not "profiling", I'm telling you the current state of all the Mac users I know, including myself.


Yeah, you can't fault broken_g3 that he hangs out with extremely odd, atypical Mac owners (except for the rich part ... a lot of us *are rich actually!).


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

broken_g3 said:


> First of all, I mentioned that *10 days ago*. I had to look through this thread to find the post. Can't we talk about something more recent?


I find it amusing that you have no hesitation in hijacking a thread about aspects of using a Mac in order to trash its users and now think its fine to tell a person what they can and cannot respond to.

This thread was perfectly on topic until you posted.



> Second of all, I was merely stating the facts as I saw them. I'm not "profiling", I'm telling you the current state of all the Mac users I know, including myself.


"Facts"? lol. More arrogance. Try "opinion" and as such it's a pretty poor one that is NOT based on reality.

And finally, remember: the internet is forever so watch what you say.


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## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

Well guys, got it all set up today.

Love it so far. Hard to get use to, however.. Is there an easier way to maximize a window?

I am certain I will have more questions. This thing is HUGE and SILENT. I find the spell checker in Safari gives FAR to many choices.. I cannot believe the detail in the monitor. Best monitor I have ever seen for a computer. 

Thanks again all.. (Sorry for the brutal pic.. My iPhone is terrible in poor light.)


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

Wow! It looks nice to me! You'll get used to it. I've had my Mac G4 for just over a year. It didnt take long to get comfortable with it. Give yourself a few days and it'll be a lot easier. Before long you'll wonder why you didnt buy one sooner!


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

I like the dock!


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## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

Thanks guys.

The "Dock" is actually a corner desk I picked up at Zellers a few months back. There is a ipod cradle made by belkin built right into the desk. 

I am slowly getting use to it, but it has been kinda hard kicking the wife off the thing all night.. LOL

Thanks again

Matt


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## mkolesa (Jul 22, 2008)

M_Portiss said:


> Love it so far. Hard to get use to, however.. Is there an easier way to maximize a window?]


i thought i should just jump in quick to say congrats and respond to the quote above... if you're used to the windoze preferred mode of viewing one application at a time full screen may i suggest you try using the imac for a time more in the way it was intended and have more than one application at a time open on the screen but placed in such a way that they're tiled so you can click an edge here or a corner there to bring that app up to the top of the pile. alternately you can use 'command + tab' together to run through the open apps... and if the desktop seems to cluttered for a task you don't necessarily need to shut down something, you can use the hide command (command + H) to keep the app running but off the desktop.

good luck!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

M_Portiss said:


> Well guys, got it all set up today.
> 
> Love it so far. Hard to get use to, however.. Is there an easier way to maximize a window?
> 
> ...


Congratulations! Another satisfied customer.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

M_Portiss said:


> Well guys, got it all set up today.
> 
> Love it so far. Hard to get use to, however.. Is there an easier way to maximize a window?


As mentioned earlier, OS X doesn't have a way to maximize a window _right out to the edges_. The OS "sees" how much content is actually within the window you're maximizing (via clicking the green traffic light button) and sizes accordingly.

Wait until you get into OSX's "Expose" window management. Incredibly powerful -- especially given that you can drag items between windows via Expose.



> I find the spell checker in Safari gives FAR to many choices...


 btw the spell checker is not limited to Safari. OS X's spell checker is accessible across many apps, including many not written by Apple. MS Office, however, uses its own checker.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Macaholic said:


> Wait until you get into OSX's "Expose" window management. Incredibly powerful -- especially given that you can drag items between windows via Expose.


Exposé is one of the best user interface inventions Apple has come up with for a long time in my opinion. I've got a multi-button mouse with 2 of Exposé's functions on it, so I can have easy access to them.

That window-flipping thing they built into Vista is just a sad imitation.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






And as one of the YouTube comments states this came out in 2003, when XP users were waiting around for SP2. 

I remember going into a London Drugs in Vancouver after Exposé came out and flipping windows around with it in the store and watching people's jaws drop as they walked by.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

3:55 of that YouTube vid shows the GOLD!


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Macaholic said:


> 3:55 of that YouTube vid shows the GOLD!


Yup, I do that all day long without taking my fingers off the mouse. That's usability!


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

M_Portiss said:


> I find the spell checker in Safari gives FAR to many choices.. I cannot believe the detail in the monitor. Best monitor I have ever seen for a computer.


... and you can set it up as a Canadian spell checker, system-wide. No more underlines on colour, labour and cheques.

The big iMacs are certainly nice looking. I had the pleasure of giving a new Mac user the OS X tour on his new 24" iMac. Great monitor. Enjoy.


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## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

Just another "daily" update here. 

I picked up Aperture 2 for my photo editting, and I must say it seems like a VERY powerful program. Seems to be a bit of a learning curve coming from CS3, but I can see the potential. I have my old 21" monitor running tandem with the 24" iMac monitor. Wow, what a difference. The pictures just "pop" much more with the iMac monitor. 

The "help" videos on the aperture mini-site make things a bit easier. I need to setup my shortcuts for the program like some of the people in the demo videos do.

The loss of "ctrl X, C, and V" bug me. I use to fly through windows with the cut copy paste shortcuts. Are they just not there on a Mac, or is there a setting I have not found yet?

Expose is wicked. Spaces is also REALLY handy. I have a couple of corners setup to get back to the desktop, and one to go to expose. I figured out the "slow-motion" feature on accident. I am just pressing random button combinations to see what happens. I am still typing in English, but I was typing right to left for a while. So, no long-term harm done as of yet.

Another comment.. I really thought the little dinky keyboard would be annoying, but I actually find it easier and quieter to type on than my old Microsoft keyboard. I am glad it came with the numberpad, though. 

I have given up on the "Mighty Mouse" No weight to it and it just feels odd in my hand. The little remote control is a nice touch. When I get it setup to my HDTV, I can see it being really handy.

I have not really run into too many issues as of yet. Installing programs proved to be a bit frustrating. When I thought I had a program installed, A windows would come up and yell at me about it being a web-based application (Or something of that matter) I don't get the "Drag icon to Application Icon" thing. 

I am certain there are other things, but this is all I can think of right now. I have about 6 hours of seat time so far, and I am not struggling as much as I thought I would. 

Just a quick question.

Do you guys think they will be releasing an updated "All in one" with Snow Leopard? My iLife is the 2008 version, and I see no reason to upgrade to iwork AND iLife '09 if a bit of a price break would be coming in a couple of months.

Anyway, thanks again guys for the help in the decision. Have any more "Cool Mac Things" to pass on?

OS 3.0 tomorrow.... Looking forward to that.. When do they typically release those things during the day? I would assume California time? Debating whether to stay up till midnight to snag it early. 

Thanks again
Matt


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## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

hehe we knew you'd love it. Once you go Mac, you can't go back! 



M_Portiss said:


> The loss of "ctrl X, C, and V" bug me. I use to fly through windows with the cut copy paste shortcuts. Are they just not there on a Mac, or is there a setting I have not found yet?


cmd-x, c, v.. Where cmd is the key with the Apple logo or the weird symbol (see http://maddagu.com/wp-content/cmd-key.jpg ). Unless you're talking about copying/pasting files in the Finder as you would do in Explorer.. I don't think that's possible, I've never done it and don't miss that "feature". You can however use "spring-loaded folders", for example when you click and drag a file or folder and hover over another folder or disk drive icon, wait a few seconds, and it'll open it up so you can see what's inside and navigate your folders like that and move it where you need.

Or you can try the column view in the finder too, which I find way more convenient. Some exploration for you to do, enjoy it! 



> I have not really run into too many issues as of yet. Installing programs proved to be a bit frustrating. When I thought I had a program installed, A windows would come up and yell at me about it being a web-based application (Or something of that matter) I don't get the "Drag icon to Application Icon" thing.


You have an Applications folder on your main hard drive.. This is where it is recommended to copy any application that you download (ie just drag its icon there), that don't come with .mpkg or installer apps. For example if you download Skype, open up the DMG (disk image) and you see the Skype icon. Drag it to your Applications folder (sometimes the app maker is nice enough to provide you with an alias to Applications right there in the disk image!), then you can eject (unmount) the disk image, and even delete the .dmg file if you want. The application is then available on your hard drive...

To uninstall it? Drag the application from /Applications to your trash. This works with most applications distributed this way. Note that applications distributed with a pkg or installer app, sometimes put files in other locations on your hard drive, so just dragging its icon to the trash won't always delete everything...



> Do you guys think they will be releasing an updated "All in one" with Snow Leopard? My iLife is the 2008 version, and I see no reason to upgrade to iwork AND iLife '09 if a bit of a price break would be coming in a couple of months.


No one knows. Some people say no, I'm just holding out and not making any predictions 


Patrix.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

I'd like to know how to set up the spell check in Safari for our Canadian spellings.

Thanks,
Funkynassau


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## Ottawaman (Jan 16, 2005)

System Prefs> International> Formats> Region


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## Choopi (May 23, 2009)

patrix said:


> cmd-x, c, v.. Where cmd is the key with the Apple logo or the weird symbol (see http://maddagu.com/wp-content/cmd-key.jpg ).
> 
> Patrix.


w00t!


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## Z06jerry (Mar 16, 2005)

patrix said:


> cmd-x, c, v.. Where cmd is the key with the Apple logo or the weird symbol (see http://maddagu.com/wp-content/cmd-key.jpg ).


Current keyboards no longer have the apple picture, just the word command and the weird symbol ...


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## johnb1 (Aug 6, 2006)

don't worry about the surround sound card. A griffin FireWave or some USB speakers will work just fine...

just my 2 cents

jb


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## dtaylor (Apr 4, 2005)

patrix said:


> <snip>
> cmd-x, c, v.. Where cmd is the key with the Apple logo or the weird symbol (see http://maddagu.com/wp-content/cmd-key.jpg ). Unless you're talking about copying/pasting files in the Finder as you would do in Explorer.. I don't think that's possible, I've never done it and don't miss that "feature".<snip>.


I'm not sure when the feature was added, but the current OS X Finder can copy files with cmd-C and cmd-V. The behaviour is pretty smart: Finder will copy the file if you paste into another folder, or simply paste the text of the file's name if you paste into a document or text box.


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

My friend is an Apple tech and he says that weird symbol is called the Splat Key!

Funkynassau


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

M_Portiss said:


> The loss of "ctrl X, C, and V" bug me. I use to fly through windows with the cut copy paste shortcuts. Are they just not there on a Mac, or is there a setting I have not found yet?


I know someone already answered your immediate question, I just wanted to point out that there's an extensive collection of keyboard shortcuts in OS X. The list is buried somewhere in Mac Help, but I always forget where it is. Here's an Apple Support Doc with the list on it.



> ⌘ (Command key) - Sometimes called "Apple key"; on Apple keyboards this key also has an Apple logo ()
> ⌃ (Control key)
> ⌥ (Option key) - "Alt" may also appear on this key
> ⇧ (Shift key)


The Command key is the big boss of the shortcuts and most of the main ones are combinations with that key. I couldn't live without keyboard shortcuts. For fun try ⌘ - Tab. And you'll notice that ⌘ -Q is right next door, which quits any app on your Mac.



M_Portiss said:


> Expose is wicked. Spaces is also REALLY handy.


Ain't it though?  I can't say I've integrated Spaces into my working patterns.



M_Portiss said:


> I have given up on the "Mighty Mouse" No weight to it and it just feels odd in my hand.


I agree with you here. I don't like the Mighty Mouse. I've been using 2-button scroll wheel mice for many years now. The Mighty Mouse is a poor design. Apple isn't perfect and even though their industrial design is usually great, they can't seem to make a decent mouse in my opinion. I currently use a Logitech wireless model with far too many buttons on it. There's an extra thumb wheel that really comes in handy for Exposé functions.



M_Portiss said:


> I have not really run into too many issues as of yet. Installing programs proved to be a bit frustrating. When I thought I had a program installed, A windows would come up and yell at me about it being a web-based application (Or something of that matter)


That's a warning that just reminds you you are about to run an app you downloaded from the web. If you know you downloaded it from a reputable site you can ignore it. If you didn't know you've downloaded it or if you are running something that you got from a questionable source, it might be a good point to think whether you actually want to run that app. I'd say the warning is worth an extra click of the return key.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

M_Portiss said:


> Love it so far. Hard to get use to, however.. Is there an easier way to maximize a window?


This is the number one question I get from PC switchers. You don't WANT to maximise the window (trust me, it isn't obvious now but it will be later).

But you can enlarge a window in any Mac app by grabbing the lower right corner of the window and dragging out.

There is a third-party program that will force the "green button" in the top left (which does not maximise as you've found) behave like the Windows equivalent, but try to get used to the Mac way of doing things first. As I say, you'll likely come to understand why we do it differently with time and practice.

PS. CONGRATS. Many of us are jealous!


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

patrix said:


> Unless you're talking about copying/pasting files in the Finder as you would do in Explorer.. I don't think that's possible, I've never done it and don't miss that "feature".


Actually, this feature has been around at least since Tiger, if not longer, and behaves EXACTLY like the Windows feature except for the lack of dopey animation to prove something happened. You can "cut" a file from one window and "paste" it into another using the (command) x, c, v keys exactly as one would be used to from Windows.

As a rule of thumb, any operation where you would have used the "ctrl" key in Windows you use the "command" key in Mac. Not always true, but 98% of the time true.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Funkynassau said:


> My friend is an Apple tech and he says that weird symbol is called the Splat Key!
> 
> Funkynassau


Your friend is having a laugh at your expense, or has decided to be deliberately ignorant of the proper terminology.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

chas_m said:


> Your friend is having a laugh at your expense, or has decided to be deliberately ignorant of the proper terminology.


Perhaps....but I like it! The "splat" key indeed!


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## Funkynassau (Apr 13, 2008)

Thanks for this tip, it's going to be very useful!
Funkynassau




The Command key is the big boss of the shortcuts and most of the main ones are combinations with that key. I couldn't live without keyboard shortcuts. For fun try ⌘ - Tab. And you'll notice that ⌘ -Q is right next door, which quits any app on your Mac.


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## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

And try cmd-｀ (that key that's normally to the left of 1, on a normal keyboard).. Switches between windows of the currently-focused application.

Combination of cmt-tab, cmd-｀ and exposé is what I miss hte most, in windows management, on other platforms...


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