# Apple hates Canadians



## angrycanuck (Nov 4, 2007)

I posted this to their discussion group last night, only to have it deleted.
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I bought my MBP back in March, only to have the santa rosa's come out a few months later (past the allotted time for renewal etc) Which I've learned to be ok with. So ok that I've even recommended my girlfriend get a macbook (especially with the newest revision.)

Now, I decided to have a little peek at prices. The Canadian Apple site has the price at 1249 CAD. I believe the price on the American Apple site is 1099 (1027$ Canadian dollars).

For those of you who don't know, the Canadian dollar is valued higher than the american dollar and has been pretty stable while the US dollar continues to fall.

On top of this, there is a 15% sales tax on products in my province. The additional 150$ equals 22.50$ extra in tax (In addition to around 140$). On top of a product that is already overvalued compared to it's identical american existence.

I have attempted to clarify why this reason is, but the apple store in town said there is no official reason as to why this is.

It seems that Apple is really making a pretty penny off of Canadian consumers. For that kind of price difference, we're looking at about an extra gig of ram (which is 165$ CAD compared to 150$ US)

Do you think this is right? Proper customer service? I'd like to see other people's opinions, because frankly I think this is a slap in the face to consumers.


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

If you use the search function on this forum you will find quite a number of previous discussions on the topic, offering a nice a variety of opinions.

Oh, by the way, welcome to ehMac.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

Are you an American? If not, where in any Constitution, Law Book, State Document, or otherwise, is it decreed that you are entitled to the same prices Americans pay on all products?

Does it suck? Sure. But it is not a right, God-given or otherwise, that we pay the same as our friends South of the border. Canada and the United States are different markets, with different pricing. Don't like it? Shop in the States. But by the time you drive to the US, pay duty at the border, and spend three hours of your time, you'll find the savings on that computer evaporate.

As for this:


> I bought my MBP back in March, only to have the santa rosa's come out a few months later (past the allotted time for renewal etc)


What does this have to do with American vs. Canadian pricing? You buy a computer, it's obsolete within weeks. I bought my MacBook two months before the Core2Duo came out. Was I pissed? No - it's been an awesome, rock solid computer, and I've never complained about "missing the boat" on the revision. I needed a computer in September, and have no regrets about not waiting.


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## Mr. Fartleberry (Dec 17, 2005)

But Macs have been reasonable at 10% markup in the past compared to 40-60% on many photo accessories. Of course as soon as the dollar hit parity a lot of things need to change. What burns me is the product I buy today will cost exactly the same when it reaches it's end of life in 18 months. I've seen some real retail scams trying to clear out of production Macs. 

I almost bought the Santa Rosa update MBP but having a burned out iBook beside me since June doesn't make me want to fork over another few thousand dollars for something may only last me a couple of years. I'll wait until the MBP is revised. It should have Blu-ray in it at that price.


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## meall (Aug 15, 2007)

The Apple discussion forums is for users helping users. Your post was not conforms with the forums rules, that's why it has been deleted. Not because you're canadian and don't like Apple policies on pricing and release dates of new product. 

If you have a complain do to, maybe you should send this at Apple (Canada) management. Or maybe [email protected]!


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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

Unfortunately, it is what it is. Apple can price whatever for however much they choose.

The above poster is correct that your post on the Apple forums contravened its rules. Regardless, you ought to have known that any criticism of a company on that company's own site is going to be made to disappear.

Apple is a business and the purpose of that is to make money. I agree with you that it bites and that the pricing cannot be considered fair in regards to the current currency rates. But, Apple calls the shots and few large companies give a damn what the consumer thinks as long as the money keeps rolling in.

And the money will continue to roll in......


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

Demosthenes X said:


> Are you an American? If not, where in any Constitution, Law Book, State Document, or otherwise, is it decreed that you are entitled to the same prices Americans pay on all products?
> 
> Does it suck? Sure. But it is not a right, God-given or otherwise, that we pay the same as our friends South of the border. Canada and the United States are different markets, with different pricing. Don't like it? Shop in the States. But by the time you drive to the US, pay duty at the border, and spend three hours of your time, you'll find the savings on that computer evaporate.
> 
> ...


I think he has a valid point. Consumers pay according to supply and demand. It's the simplest, most well know fact of economics. If prices on apple products BEFORE the recent rise of the Canadian dollar were 20-30% more, that 20-30% was reflective of the difference our dollar had against the american dollar. Now that our dollar is ABOVE parity with the american dollar, it should follow that the difference in price should be in OUR favor. Apple isn't playing by the rules. Apple (along with local resellers) is pocketing the difference. That's what's making people upset. He's not the only one who's upset about this. Our own finance minister has recently gone on a petition spree, asking retailers to reduce prices. Some big names have followed suit: Sears, Wallmart...why shouldn't apple? Maybe some of the resellers who bash people on this forum might have some input? I know they will after this post. Maybe they'd like to throw some insults my way as an "argument" against what i have to say?
But then, maybe I'm wrong; finance minister Joe Flaherty is wrong; Wallmart; Sears...along with every Canadian who holds a grudge against paying higher costs for consumer goods - just simply because it's Canada, eh, and not because of legitimate market forces that push or pull on prices?
beejacon


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## jakfunk (Sep 18, 2006)

Amen, Fuzzyface!


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## fazer (Aug 8, 2005)

Apparently one of the other reasons why prices in Canada are typically 14% higher than those in the US is due to the higher costs of doing business in Canada. We have higher minimum wages and stricter regulations that drive up the cost of business.

Prices for products such as cars will naturally fall because automotive sellers have a higher incentive to compete with US prices. 

I think that if our dollar stays above parity for some time, prices will naturally adjust.

Eh?


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

fuzzyface said:


> Apple isn't playing by the rules. Apple (along with local resellers) is pocketing the difference.


Not the resellers, dude. Canadian Apple resellers are still attempting to survive on pitiful 2 - 6% gross profit margins that Apple allows them to make. Literally on some products, if you use a charge card (which the merchant pays 1.8% - 3% to accept) on some Apple products the reseller loses money.

Also, shipping costs in Canada are obscene. Fuel surcharges keep going up. A subwoofer speaker that costs $200 can easily cost the reseller $60 additional to ship it from Mississauga to the West coast.


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

CanadaRAM said:


> Not the resellers, dude. Canadian Apple resellers are still attempting to survive on pitiful 2 - 6% gross profit margins that Apple allows them to make. Literally on some products, if you use a charge card (which the merchant pays 1.8% - 3% to accept) on some Apple products the reseller loses money.
> 
> Also, shipping costs in Canada are obscene. Fuel surcharges keep going up. A subwoofer speaker that costs $200 can easily cost the reseller $60 additional to ship it from Mississauga to the West coast.


So...you're telling me that resellers aren't buying apple products for less than they were when our dollar was 65-85% of the US dollar?  
IF that's so (and I don't think resellers are that meek that they would accept that), then maybe resellers should get on the bandwagon as well and advocate for lower prices. I don't have any sympathy for resellers who claim they aren't makin money. If they weren't, then they should sell something they can make money from...like windoze PCs or chainsaws, or...whatever. 
Transportation costs are high everywhere. Our minimum wage isn't so high that it accounts for the difference (waht about Alberta?). 
:greedy: Canadians are being gouged, and there's a groundswell of opposition behind what I'm saying. So much so, that the Canadian government is getting involved; recognizing that it's unfair to consumers, and it's unfair to businesses that buy from suppliers that try to charge a 20-30% premium when our dollar is above parity.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

What was the price of the MacBook in Canada vs the US six or eight months ago?

Same as now if I'm not mistaken (maybe somebody can correct me).

But if that is true; the loonie has appreciated by just over 25% against the greenback in that period and I doubt if any of the attracted selling costs have increased by anywhere near that amount during that same period - so the argument about smaller market, higher transportation costs, higher minimum wages, higher cost of doing business and what ever else is being quoted doesn't hold water unless that cost was less in Canada six months ago than today.
So if the reseller is still buying at the same Canadian price they paid six or nine months ago, then the distributor or Apple is pocketing the difference.

I wonder if emails to the addresses meall suggested would make a difference - sure can't hurt since I doubt any senior executive from Apple reads these forums and the complaints people have about the pricing.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

fuzzyface said:


> I think he has a valid point. Consumers pay according to supply and demand. It's the simplest, most well know fact of economics. If prices on apple products BEFORE the recent rise of the Canadian dollar were 20-30% more, that 20-30% was reflective of the difference our dollar had against the american dollar. Now that our dollar is ABOVE parity with the american dollar, it should follow that the difference in price should be in OUR favor. Apple isn't playing by the rules.


Please don't throw terms like Supply and Demand around if you don't know what they really mean. The value of the Canadian dollar does not automatically change Supply or Demand of products in Canada - America and Canada are different markets, and their Supply/Demand equilibrium will be different. Pricing in Canada is not set according to US pricing, it's set based on market conditions that are specific to Canada.

The value of the currency only has a roundabout effect on our local pricing: we see cheaper American pricing and assume we are entitled to the same (which sadly is not the case). People for some reason assume that Apple Inc. sets prices in America, then adjusts them for the exchange rate to set Canadian prices. This is not the case - price setting is independent in the two countries, and there are far more factors than the exchange rate involved (CanadaRAM points out a few).


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Demosthenes X said:


> Please don't throw terms like Supply and Demand around if you don't know what they really mean. The value of the Canadian dollar does not automatically change Supply or Demand of products in Canada...


Au contraire mon ami--it seems the CDN dollar has created much demand for price-adjusted goods from the U.S. :lmao:


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## WorldIRC (Mar 7, 2004)

MannyP Design said:


> Au contraire mon ami--it seems the CDN dollar has created much demand for price-adjusted goods from the U.S. :lmao:


I know I'm in the USA every weekend and now it is costing me very little every weekend to "live there". Making money based on my Canadian income and spending it at 93cents per buck  And to add, stuff is already cheaper down there! Life is great!


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

Demosthenes X said:


> Please don't throw terms like Supply and Demand around if you don't know what they really mean. The value of the Canadian dollar does not automatically change Supply or Demand of products in Canada - America and Canada are different markets, and their Supply/Demand equilibrium will be different. Pricing in Canada is not set according to US pricing, it's set based on market conditions that are specific to Canada.
> 
> The value of the currency only has a roundabout effect on our local pricing: we see cheaper American pricing and assume we are entitled to the same (which sadly is not the case). People for some reason assume that Apple Inc. sets prices in America, then adjusts them for the exchange rate to set Canadian prices. This is not the case - price setting is independent in the two countries, and there are far more factors than the exchange rate involved (CanadaRAM points out a few).


So...tell us all what those "market conditions" are, and how they would have eaten up the difference when our own dollar appreciates 30% against the US $. How DOES Apple set prices, if currency rates aren't a factor - or at least a principle factor? 
Perhaps Apple spends more on white paint for their stores in Canada? Perhaps Apple spends more on heating (as it never gets cold in the US)? 
Enlighten us! Please! 
How have "market conditions" prevented Apple from lowering prices like Wallmart, or Sears (just to name a few)? 
What market conditions are specific to Canada?
What explained the 20-30% premium BEFORE our dollar rose 20-30% - to a dollar that's above parity with the US? What were market conditions then, have they changed, and how have they changed - if at all?
Oh, and how does "supply and demand" not affect pricing?


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Demosthenes X said:


> People for some reason assume that Apple Inc. sets prices in America, then adjusts them for the exchange rate to set Canadian prices. This is not the case - price setting is independent in the two countries, and there are far more factors than the exchange rate involved (CanadaRAM points out a few).


Apple actually does do that to a large degree if you look at Apple pricing in other countries.
There were a few comparisons a while back on ehMac, but people forgot that the sales tax (or VAT) is already pert of the price in European countries and the VAT is around 20%, so the supposedly much higher European prices aren't that much higher than US prices converted once you take out the VAT.

One other point - in a sense Apple shot themselves in the foot by making Leopard pricing the same in Canada as in the US - so naturally, people are expecting that on other Apple products as well.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

This is why I encourage you not to "drop" terms like Supply and Demand with understanding their meaning. Apple sets pricing where the Supply/Demand is at equilibrium (where possible). In Canada, that S/D equilibrium is higher than in America. Demand is defined as what the market is willing and able to pay. What does it all mean? In short, Canadians are willing and able to pay more than in Americans. Why we're willing to do so is down to a number of factors, including less competition than in the States, but the crux of the matter is that we generally accept higher prices as a given.

This is changing with dollar parity, because all of sudden we've realized we're being charged a lot more than our neighbors.

But the long and short is, Canadians accept higher prices than Americans. Apple sets pricing according to what we will pay - period. The value of the currency has no direct affect on pricing - prices are set for Canada, not Canada in relation to America. Dollar parity has an indirect affect as I've described, but stop assuming pricing is set according to the currency. If this was the case, Apple's prices would change every minute as the dollar traded.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

CanadaRAM said:


> Also, shipping costs in Canada are obscene. Fuel surcharges keep going up. A subwoofer speaker that costs $200 can easily cost the reseller $60 additional to ship it from Mississauga to the West coast.


Which brings up the question why is Carbon Computing insisting on becoming the exclusive retailer in Canada for BBP Bags and Axiotron ModBooks when us westcoasters get reamed up the Firewire port in shipping charges.


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

*Buyers remorse*

Boo hoo hoo. If you buy something that you think is overpriced, but buy it anyway....hows that anyone's fault but your own? 

ALL technology costs more now than later. So either wait for them to adjust their prices (and thereby deprive them of revenue) or just deal with it. 

Ed


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I agree with smashedbanana. Do you expect retailers to have realtime price adjustments based on the currency? "$289.12 for the iPod? But the sticker said $286.69!" "Sorry but the American dollar just rose 0.85 cents in the past 10 minutes since that sticker was posted. If you wait another couple of hours, a reduction of interest rates might see the iPod drop to less than $280."


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

dona83 said:


> I agree with smashedbanana. Do you expect retailers to have realtime price adjustments based on the currency? "$289.12 for the iPod? But the sticker said $286.69!" "Sorry but the American dollar just rose 0.85 cents in the past 10 minutes since that sticker was posted. If you wait another couple of hours, a reduction of interest rates might see the iPod drop to less than $280."


You should read these stories:

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2007/11/02/retailers-loonie.html

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2007/11/02/dollarrise.html

Our dollar hit 96.7 cents vs the US dollar in July. It's been on a steady increase all year long. It's now November, and economists are calling for 1.10 vs the US $. Am i calling for up-to-the-minute pricing? How about pricing that reflects the dollars climb within the last 5-6 months? Is that too much to ask? Am i alone on this one? Please!


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

dona83 said:


> I agree with smashedbanana. Do you expect retailers to have realtime price adjustments based on the currency? "$289.12 for the iPod? But the sticker said $286.69!" "Sorry but the American dollar just rose 0.85 cents in the past 10 minutes since that sticker was posted. If you wait another couple of hours, a reduction of interest rates might see the iPod drop to less than $280."


Of course not. But then again, how long has it been since retails adjusted the prices to reflect the dollar from one month ago... two months ago ... three months ago? How long does it take before we see a ripple of price adjustments? Some independent businesses have already offered price adjustments on their products without any sort of delay. Some bookstores charge the US cover price.

That said, I've noticed that there seems to be an increase in rebates and sales for goods--especially electronics. I have a suspicion that some big-box retailers are offering rebates to offset the CDN dollar. We've been shopping for a big-screen television for the last year or so, keeping an eye out for deals and such, and it seems like there's been a flurry of deals.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

fuzzyface said:


> You should read these stories:
> 
> Prices fall though retailers warn deep cuts won't arrive until 2008
> 
> ...


The fact that the Canadian dollar has risen so far so fast is a good reason not to adjust prices. It's great for shoppers now, and the Canadian dollar likely will hit $1.10 - but it is not sustainable. The Canadian dollar is already overvalued ~7-10¢ than what fundamental factors suggest it should be. Once the US economy passes this hurdle, the loonie will fall back to 97¢ or less (my personal guess is an 85¢ dollar in the future, but only time will tell).

The speed and fluctuation of the loonie makes it very, very hard to adjust pricing. Big props to those retailers that have done it. But retailers buy their product months in advance, so for them to buy it at the 85¢ dollar and reduce prices will mean less profit. Some retailers have decided the increase in sales is worth it, but this will not be the case for all retailers (especially smaller ones - Walmart and Sears are massive, and can stomach this crunch until suppliers adjust their pricing).

The general theory is that it takes ~2 years for a currency change to be reflected at the retail level. The speed at which the Canadian dollar has climbed has led some retailers to adjust prices in the face of consumer pressure, but it is not nearly so easy as people assume.

Most products we buy in Canada are bought from Canadian distributors, who buy from American suppliers, who buy from overseas. Big, local chains like Canadian Tire might have their own overseas suppliers, but for most products, they're likely going through an American parent company. It's the American-side supplier whose reaping the most reward, having not adjusted pricing. It does take time for the savings to trickle down through all levels to reach the end user.

Yes, prices should be adjusted. But please do not assume it's as easy as changing the sticker on a product.


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

Demosthenes X said:


> The fact that the Canadian dollar has risen so far so fast is a good reason not to adjust prices. It's great for shoppers now, and the Canadian dollar likely will hit $1.10 - but it is not sustainable. The Canadian dollar is already overvalued ~7-10¢ than what fundamental factors suggest it should be. Once the US economy passes this hurdle, the loonie will fall back to 97¢ or less (my personal guess is an 85¢ dollar in the future, but only time will tell).
> 
> The speed and fluctuation of the loonie makes it very, very hard to adjust pricing. Big props to those retailers that have done it. But retailers buy their product months in advance, so for them to buy it at the 85¢ dollar and reduce prices will mean less profit. Some retailers have decided the increase in sales is worth it, but this will not be the case for all retailers (especially smaller ones - Walmart and Sears are massive, and can stomach this crunch until suppliers adjust their pricing).
> 
> ...


Right. 
There are a few approaches:
1. Peel the sticker - take the chance you could damage the packaging.
2. Stick a sticker on top of the sticker - take the chance someone could peel off the top sticker before realizing that the sticker underneath has a higher price, and then try to stick the sticker back - leaving an unsightly mess (is this one of the market conditions you spoke of)?
3. Use a steamer to take the sticker off the product packaging, then wait for said product packaging to dry - but you also risk damaging the packaging?
4. Use a felt tip market to alter the price on the sticker, but then you risk making a mistake (see #2)?
5. Use the barter system, and risk ending up with a goat or a 12 toasters you can't use.
You're right - it's almost impossible! There are too many variables (though, how did Wallmart Sears and others do it?).
Oh wait! Canadians are willing to pay more! We have wealth that even the Saudis are jealous of.
If small retailers can shift their prices to parity, then so can Apple. Period.
FYI: I watched a CBC report on the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the states (and it really is a crisis). They're just at the tip of the iceberg. Within the next two years, over 900 billion dollars worth of sub-prime mortgages will come to term. So, 900 billion dollars worth of mortgages will change rates from 6-9% to 16% or more. People are losing their homes in droves and in the next couple of years it's going to get much, much worse. The sub-prime crisis in the states has been cited as one of the factors our dollar is doing so well. Their economy is in the doghouse. In two years, they're going to lose their doghouse. Honestly, in light of that news, I'm more worried about that than how much a Canadian ipod costs over its US counterpart.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

Wal-Mart and Sears are massive companies - even if it means selling at a loss, they can afford to do it while they wait for pricing to adjust. Wal-Mart is so massive that they're virtually a manufacture, supplier, and reseller in one.

Independent resellers have a choice: cut prices, pressure their suppliers to lower their prices, and hope they get a boost in sales that will cover their reduced margins in the interim. I know MacDoc has been fighting with some of his peripheral suppliers for better pricing - it's a choice for any company like this to lower prices and wait for suppliers to come on board, or maintain higher prices until their suppliers cave.

Yes, Apple can afford to lower prices. But Canadians will keep buying Apple Products in the meantime, so why should they? You might not like it, but the fact is that Canada is a smaller, less competitive market, and we're used to and willing to paying a premium for a lot of products. Comments like " Oh wait! Canadians are willing to pay more!" only make you look like an idiot.

Why would Apple willingly reduce their revenue when Canadians will continue to buy their products at higher prices?


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

This discussion is gong nowhere, but you stated:



> Why would Apple willingly reduce their revenue when Canadians will continue to buy their products at higher prices?


They did with the pricing for Leopard.

Don't you think Canadians would have been happy to pay $C 149.-?

Anyway - I for one am not willing to buy another Mac until the price comes down to at least par. As I stated earlier, there is no reason for Apple and/or the distributer to keep Canadian prices at the current level other than to reap a greater profit at my expense.
All this "rationale" about smaller market, Canadians are willing to pay more etc, also applied when the loonie was at 85 cents.


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

Demosthenes X said:


> This is why I encourage you not to "drop" terms like Supply and Demand with understanding their meaning. Apple sets pricing where the Supply/Demand is at equilibrium (where possible). In Canada, that S/D equilibrium is higher than in America. Demand is defined as what the market is willing and able to pay. What does it all mean? In short, Canadians are willing and able to pay more than in Americans. Why we're willing to do so is down to a number of factors, including less competition than in the States, but the crux of the matter is that we generally accept higher prices as a given.
> 
> This is changing with dollar parity, because all of sudden we've realized we're being charged a lot more than our neighbors.
> 
> But the long and short is, Canadians accept higher prices than Americans. Apple sets pricing according to what we will pay - period. The value of the currency has no direct affect on pricing - prices are set for Canada, not Canada in relation to America. Dollar parity has an indirect affect as I've described, but stop assuming pricing is set according to the currency. If this was the case, Apple's prices would change every minute as the dollar traded.


Oh - the "Canadians are willing to pay more" line isn't mine, it's yours. It's your rationale for why Canadian prices are more for the same products that are sold for less in the US. 
So...i guess i can't claim the "idiot" prize. 
It's yours.
"What does it all mean? In short, Canadians are willing and able to pay more than in Americans. Why we're willing to do so is down to a number of factors, including less competition than in the States, but the crux of the matter is that we generally accept higher prices as a given.":clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: 

Why would Apple change their prices for a loss in revenue? What happened to your mystical insights into unique "market" forces that determine prices for the Canadian market? Is greed a market force that determines price differences between Canada and the US when currency value has nothing to do with it? Is that what your telling us?
Oh, and you didn't explain your whole take on "supply and demand" in relation to currency flutuation and pricing - why Canadian prices are more than the US. 
If it's because of the mystical, myriad of factors that you haven't yet explained, then please, explain away. If it's because of greed; a case of "well why would they decrease prices when the demand is there" even if our currency is worth more - then, I understand thatbeejacon !
Oh, and I too will not buy an Apple product until their prices are at par with our dollar. I don't buy the "small" market spin either.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

I think one of the key points that's being made in this discussion is the fact that pricing for Canadians has(had?) been on a roll at being on Par. The Refurbed AppleTVs were prices at $229 and $329 in the US and in Canada. Leopard was priced in line with US Pricing. Apple even reduced the price of .Mac in Canada, not to par, but more in line with reality (we were paying a $50 premium for .Mac).

I think people would still be complaining if Apple hadn't reduced pricing on soem other things, but the fact that they seemed on a roll to matching/making fair prices, at least on new products, with rise of the CDN vs. the US Dollar.

Why make some prices more on par, and leave others much higher than the US counterparts?


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

fyrefly said:


> I think one of the key points that's being made in this discussion is the fact that pricing for Canadians has(had?) been on a roll at being on Par. The Refurbed AppleTVs were prices at $229 and $329 in the US and in Canada. Leopard was priced in line with US Pricing. Apple even reduced the price of .Mac in Canada, not to par, but more in line with reality (we were paying a $50 premium for .Mac).
> 
> I think people would still be complaining if Apple hadn't reduced pricing on soem other things, but the fact that they seemed on a roll to matching/making fair prices, at least on new products, with rise of the CDN vs. the US Dollar.
> 
> Why make some prices more on par, and leave others much higher than the US counterparts?


They came out with new revised macbooks. No revised prices to match.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

fyrefly said:


> Why make some prices more on par, and leave others much higher than the US counterparts?


Hasn't their practice been to adjust each product as an update is released? It didn't happen with the Macbook, which is quite surprising, but usually that seems to be the way.

Although it's unrealistic to expect across-the-board price adjustments on a daily, weekly or even monthly basis, I don't blame people for being upset (or just put off) by the current spreads.


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

Here's a hypothetical question.

I live about 10 minutes from the US border. There's an Apple retail store in Bellingham, Washington about 45 km from my front door. So, getting to an Apple retail store in the US isn't a very time consuming task for me.

Suppose I need to purchase a lot of Mac equipment, say $10,000 worth. Needless to say, it will cost less in Bellingham than it will locally. 

Exactly what are the ramifications involved in jumping in my car, driving to the US, spending my $10,000 and returning? Canada Customs? Duty? Apple Warranty? Something I haven't thought of? 

Answers will be gratefully received, since this isn't, in fact, an entirely hypothetical situation - there's a distinct possibility that it might come to pass. Soon.


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

Where does the majority of Mac hardware come from? Is it the US? No, most of it comes from China. I'd be willing to guess that most of the components are made in countries other than the US. Has our dollar increased in value against the Chinese currency (forgive me I can't remember what it is). I don't believe that it has. Therefore Apple Canada is making the same amount of profit when it sells a Mac in Canada as it was before the US dollar fell.

That's right people, our dollar has not increased in value against the currencies around the globe. The US dollar has fallen. The problem is that Apple has failed to increase the price of it's products in the US to more accurately reflect the change in value to the US currency. 

Which products from Apple are on par, or close to par between the US and Canada. The OS, software (like iWork), and .Mac. Where are these products "manufactured"? In the US most likely because it is simply burning disks and this can be done in automated factories without the need for inexpensive labour. 

Have the prices for Apple products around the world dropped? No, because they are priced at similar prices to what they've always been priced, because their currencies have remained close to what they have been for years. 

If something is made in the US and all of it's components are also made in the US then you'd have an argument. The only argument that you have right now is that the US pricing hasn't caught up to what it should be. Apple is making less profit on machines sold in the US right now.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Gerbill said:


> Here's a hypothetical question.
> 
> Exactly what are the ramifications involved in jumping in my car, driving to the US, spending my $10,000 and returning? Canada Customs? Duty? Apple Warranty? Something I haven't thought of?


You'll pay PST and GST on your purchases. But don't forget that you will also be paying state tax on the purchase as well...not sure what the rate is for Washington.


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

Oakbridge said:


> Where does the majority of Mac hardware come from? Is it the US? No, most of it comes from China. I'd be willing to guess that most of the components are made in countries other than the US. Has our dollar increased in value against the Chinese currency (forgive me I can't remember what it is). I don't believe that it has. Therefore Apple Canada is making the same amount of profit when it sells a Mac in Canada as it was before the US dollar fell.
> 
> That's right people, our dollar has not increased in value against the currencies around the globe. The US dollar has fallen. The problem is that Apple has failed to increase the price of it's products in the US to more accurately reflect the change in value to the US currency.
> 
> ...


So...you would have us believe that Apple US isn't realizing an extra 20-30% pure profit on exchange (when they sell something online). You're blaming the price discrepancy that ONCE upon a time was explained by the difference between our dollars and are now blaming it on the strength of the Chinese yen? :yikes:  You resellers on this board will go to such extreme lengths to justify Apple's price gouging. Who believes this spin?:yawn: 
Do you think it's just the people on this forum that are upset? It's a hot national issue right now, and people are complaining in droves; driving south of the border to do their shopping. That's why retailers here are lowering their prices - to protect their marketshare here. That's why the government is getting involved - because it's a hot button issue, and the conservatives thing they will score some brownie points with the voters.
Maybe we should all just roll over and play dead because it's in your interest?


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

When it comes to international business with China, all transactions are conducted in $US. Even when a Canadian company imports from China they use $US, not $CDN. The majority of global transactions are done with $US or Euro$


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

adagio said:


> When it comes to international business with China, all transactions are conducted in $US. Even when a Canadian company imports from China they use $US, not $CDN. The majority of global transactions are done with $US or Euro$


OK. So, when Apple sell's a product for 20-30% more in canada, and then they convert Canadian $ into American $, they aren't realizing pure profit? 
Even if they're selling at par, they still make 10% on exchange when they convert Canadian $ into American $.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Oakbridge said:


> Has our dollar increased in value against the Chinese currency (forgive me I can't remember what it is). I don't believe that it has. Therefore Apple Canada is making the same amount of profit when it sells a Mac in Canada as it was before the US dollar fell.


Interesting argument, but...

- The C$ actually *has* been rising against the yuan and most other currencies, only not as much as it has against the USD.

- Is there any evidence that Apple's Asian costs really are on the rise? If you're right, then the argument explains a lot. 

Even so, I would still expect Canadian and US prices to get closer as long as the C$ stays high. At some point, consumer discontent over the spread will hurt sales so much that there will be no option.


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## bishopandarlo (Mar 22, 2006)

The title of this thread reminds me of when Kayne West said "George Bush hates black people"...


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

fuzzyface said:


> So...you would have us believe that Apple US isn't realizing an extra 20-30% pure profit on exchange (when they sell something online). You're blaming the price discrepancy that ONCE upon a time was explained by the difference between our dollars and are now blaming it on the strength of the Chinese yen? :yikes:  You resellers on this board will go to such extreme lengths to justify Apple's price gouging. Who believes this spin?:yawn:
> Do you think it's just the people on this forum that are upset? It's a hot national issue right now, and people are complaining in droves; driving south of the border to do their shopping. That's why retailers here are lowering their prices - to protect their marketshare here. That's why the government is getting involved - because it's a hot button issue, and the conservatives thing they will score some brownie points with the voters.
> Maybe we should all just roll over and play dead because it's in your interest?


Check my signature, and my company's website. Oakbridge is not currently, nor has it ever been a reseller for Apple hardware. 

I'd like you to show me where Apple is charging 20-30% higher for a product in Canada than it is in the US. 

I'm getting tired of hearing all about this "our dollar has risen" stuff. Face the truth, our dollar, while it might have risen slightly over the other non-US currencies of the world has not risen as much as we would like to believe.

It is the US dollar that has dropped. There is a huge difference.

There are also differences in the costs associated to run a business in Canada vs. the US. Yes I know that with online ordering there is little if anything that anyone in Canada actually does to handle the transaction, but still there are the costs associated with running the support centre, and the Apple Stores, etc. 

Have you stopped to consider that the costs associated with any product that Apple sells in Canada are higher right off the bat than they are in most other countries in the world? How? Simply by having bilingual packaging and support staff. 

Canadian distributors have been gouging Canadian consumers for as long as I can remember. I bought my first portable CD player back around 1990 or 1991 in California. It was a Sony Discman and I paid approximately $225 for it after the exchange. That same model was selling in Canada for $360. There may have been duties on it but at the time I calculated that Sony Canada (which back then was 51% owned by an independent Canadian company, not Sony) was making a whopping mark-up. It was not the Canadian retailers. 

I'm not trying to defend anyone. I'm looking to purchase new hardware in the next few months as well and I'd love to see Apple reduce their hardware prices before I do. However I believe that Apple is probably one of the best companies for keeping their pricing as equitable as possible. Stop comparing out pricing to the US, compare it to what the UK and Australia are paying. 

For example, we're paying $129 for Leopard, the Australians are paying $143 and based on the current conversion rate, the price they should be paying is $150 so they are ahead by $7. A 20" iMac is $1599 for us and $1953 for the Aussies. Based on the same conversion rate, they should be paying $1860. We come out ahead.

In the UK, based on the conversion from our $129 Leopard should be 67 pounds but they are paying 72 pounds. That same $1599 20" iMac should be 823 pounds and on the Apple UK it is listed at 807 pounds. 

There you go, buy your copy of Leopard in Australia and buy your iMac in the UK and you'll be a winner.

There are always going to be discrepancies. It is never a simple case of taking price in one country and using an exchange conversion to set a price in another country.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

fuzzyface said:


> Oh - the "Canadians are willing to pay more" line isn't mine, it's yours. It's your rationale for why Canadian prices are more for the same products that are sold for less in the US.
> So...i guess i can't claim the "idiot" prize.
> It's yours.


Do you make a concentrated effort to be this daft? I said don't through phrases like "Canadians are willing to pay more!!!" around sarcastically when you have no idea what you're talking about. This is a statement of _fact_ - why do you think so many companies have got away with it for so many years? It's only recently, with the dollar at par, that Canadians have realized that we're being overcharged. Remember way back in the 1980s when the Canadian dollar was strong (relative to the ~200 $0.60 dollar, anyway)? Canadians would cross the border to shop in the US because it was cheaper - same as they're doing today. Higher prices in Canada are not a new phenomenon, things have been this way for a long, long time.

Do not insult my intelligence when I've explained several times why prices in Canada are higher. They are only "mysterious market forces" if you're too simplistic to understand that Canada and the USA are different markets: Apple sets American prices according to what Americans will pay, and sets 
Canadian prices according to what Canadians will pay.

You will note I never said that currency has nothing to do with pricing, I said it only has an indirect effect on pricing. The strong dollar has caused Canadians to realize the extent we're being cheated, and has caused companies to lower their prices in reaction. But prices are not set by "set US price, adjust for exchange rate, that's the Canadian price". Which has been said multiple times, you simply chose not to see it.

But I'm done with trying to explain economic theory to a wall. You clearly aren't interested in fact, preferring to wallow in your own self misery and make wild assumptions about Apple's price policies and ignore anything that happens to contravene your theory - fact or not.

Enjoy.




> I'm getting tired of hearing all about this "our dollar has risen" stuff. Face the truth, our dollar, while it might have risen slightly over the other non-US currencies of the world has not risen as much as we would like to believe.


Honestly - where do you people come up with this ****? The Canadian dollar is one of the world's best performing currencies this year. We're up 13% against the Euro - that's not a "slight" rise. In fact, the Canadian dollar is up against every major currency in the world. I've heard it's up against every currency in the world save the Brazilian Real. Surging oil and gold prices have pushed the loonie up very quickly on the world stage, not just the North American stage.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

Oakbridge said:


> ...Canadian distributors have been gouging Canadian consumers for as long as I can remember. ....


I met a long-time (approaching retirement) Canadian wholesaler last week and he was telling me about the negative effects of the CDN $ on his Canadian retailers.
In the middle of the conversation, he casually mentioned that he and all wholesalers had _always_ price-gouged in Canada. He said it like it was accepted, agreeable, and everyone knew about it.
That may seem like a tangent to this thread, but reading through these posts and thinking of that conversation, I feel that as Canadians, we _have_ always been beaten with a stick, and we _have_ always begrudgingly accepted it as "just the way things are in Canada". 
All of a sudden I feel like our victim mentallity is part of the mysterious "Canadian Identity".

Anyway. Carry on.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

fuzzyface said:


> They came out with new revised macbooks. No revised prices to match.


That was kinda my point.  Prices on AppleTV's and Leopard were on a roll being on par -- why not the MacBooks?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

fuzzyface said:


> So...you're telling me that resellers aren't buying apple products for less than they were when our dollar was 65-85% of the US dollar?
> IF that's so (and I don't think resellers are that meek that they would accept that), then maybe resellers should get on the bandwagon as well and advocate for lower prices. I don't have any sympathy for resellers who claim they aren't makin money. If they weren't, then they should sell something they can make money from...like windoze PCs or chainsaws, or...whatever. .


No Reseller is asking for sympathy on how much money they make. CanadaRam just pointed out that its completely innaccurate that Resellers are pocketing the extra money. Resellers by directly from Apple and they set the cost. The cost of a product has not changed.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Demosthenes X said:


> Do you make a concentrated effort to be this daft? I said don't through phrases like "Canadians are willing to pay more!!!" around sarcastically when you have no idea what you're talking about. This is a statement of _fact_ - why do you think so many companies have got away with it for so many years? It's only recently, with the dollar at par, that Canadians have realized that we're being overcharged. Remember way back in the 1980s when the Canadian dollar was strong (relative to the ~200 $0.60 dollar, anyway)? Canadians would cross the border to shop in the US because it was cheaper - same as they're doing today. Higher prices in Canada are not a new phenomenon, things have been this way for a long, long time.
> 
> Do not insult my intelligence when I've explained several times why prices in Canada are higher. They are only "mysterious market forces" if you're too simplistic to understand that Canada and the USA are different markets: Apple sets American prices according to what Americans will pay, and sets
> Canadian prices according to what Canadians will pay.
> ...


I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if I'm singly you out...
But please, stay on topic and debate the facts. Do not start attacking the person you are arguing with.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

ehMax said:


> I haven't read the entire thread, so sorry if I'm singly you out...
> But please, stay on topic and debate the facts. Do not start attacking the person you are arguing with.


I will when other people do the same:



> _So...i guess i can't claim the "idiot" prize.
> It's yours._


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Demosthenes X said:


> I will when other people do the same:


Uhhh... Actually you (and other members) *WILL* stop. At least for the next week you will. Your choice after that if you want to come back and help maintain decorum. 

If anyone posts personal attacks on ehMac.ca, just like speeding and running red lights, you run the risk of getting caught with consequences. You may get away with it some of the time, but you won't get away with it all of the time.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Congrats to ehMax. Thanks for stepping in to maintain decorum. This is why I like ehMac, 'cause it's supposed to be a friendly community of Apple fans and friends.


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## Aaikau (Feb 22, 2005)

I was going to buy a iMac this week but I decided to boycott Apple Canada until they lower their prices to at least with parity to US dollar. This is nothing but corporate greed.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I think you need to let Apple Canada and Apple US know. They sure as heck are not reading any of these posts.


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