# Live at home after high school or move out?



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

*.*

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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

There's a fine line between "helping the kids out" and "doing everything for them so they never learn to do on their own" and a lot of parents cross it.

In one of my buildings, I attract a lot of mid-to-late 20-somethings. Most of the time, this is their first apartment. I made a joke about fuses on the thread where this came up, but it happened... I had a tenant whose fuse burned out. The super showed her what kind of fuse to get, where to pick up up and how to install it.... she freaked out, said she had no time for this, she can't deal with this, it's too stressful, and then spent 10 minutes fussing at the super over this. It takes less time to go pick up the fuse and change it.

I get tenants who find it stressful to get a letter from me and want an apology from me for causing them this much distress. Um. How about you don't give me a reason to give you a letter?

I've had tenants say "Oh my god, I didn't know there was construction here, it's noisy, it's dusty, I can't bear this, I want to move" and then I say didn't you see the disposal bin out front, the units that are at the bare stud stage, and aren't you in a newly-renovated unit yourself? How did you think that happens? "I don't care, I want to leave, give me all my money back." No. Sorry. You don't like it here, you can give appropriate notice and move out, but in the meantime you pay rent like everyone else.

Sometimes, though, it's the parents. Kid sees the apartment, loves it, starts measuring it for furniture, has a job and credit, puts down a deposit and rents it on their own.... mom and dad come see the apartment, don't like it, and then magically the kid doesn't want the apartment any more, gives no reason, wants their money back, argues with my super and I about it and then the parents start screaming about small claims court. (I had 1 of these last week.) How about let the kid handle this one? If he's old enough to rent an apartment, let him decide on it by himself.

Don't get me wrong, some of them are great. But a lot of them are used to having mom and dad do a lot for them that they should be capable of doing themselves.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

Like everything else in life, it's a balance. You want to support them when they need it, but not shelter them from every little bump and lump in life.

Children learn from their parents' example - not what they say, but what they do. Too many parents refuse to take responsibility for their own choices in life, blaming others for everything, and likely the children will learn to do the same thing, based upon that example.


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## Mckitrick (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm with MazterCBlazter on this one. 

I think it's a cultural thing as well though. 

I, personally never understood parents who wouldn't really help their kids out on their way through life. IMO, it seems that the very well-off parents are often the worst for this. The attitude of "Well I made it on my own and so should you" always strikes me as incredibly arrogant. Yes, you were successful but don't be so quick to dismiss how much luck played into the equation. There are many people who had the same education, talent, etc., put in as much work and didn't have the same luck as you and so aren't as successful.

I've worked very hard since I was in my early teens and spent a lot of time in school, etc. but a lot of my personal success (at least monetary) has been "right place at the right time" and I believe that's true for a lot of people. I'm not dismissing preparation, hard work and vision but not matter how hard you work, it won't guarantee success without a bit of luck as well. It bugs me when people don't acknowledge it.

/rant


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I stayed at home for three years after high school while I was in school... moved out on my own when I knew it was time. The independence thing clicked. Got a place with two roommates, we kept the place together and clean, studied our butts off, had nightly NHL 2005 games, it was a fun year. Graduated from tech college and moved on.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I think it's important for socializing and learning life skills to get out and live with room mates in stead of parents.

I have one of each - daughter living on her own since uni at 16 and thriving. Finished her last exam today and signed up for job or masters which ever arrives first.

Son still home at 19 and behind on the socialization curve and independence tho getting to be financially independent and paying off his debts..

I don't think there is a one size fits all.....but I think a living on own soon after high school - even if it's not permanent is a good life experience.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

The first action in my hidden agenda will be enacting mandatory military service. These kids today need discipline.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> I think it's important for socializing and learning life skills to get out and live with room mates in stead of parents.
> 
> I have one of each - daughter living on her own since uni at 16 and thriving. Finished her last exam today and signed up for job or masters which ever arrives first.
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Living at home had no effect on my social life, I was a social bug throughout college. Living on my own, I had to work an extra shift each week to pay rent, combined with 30 hours of week of classes and 30-45 in studying, I had less social time.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

My oldest has just arrived back for the summer from his first year away at university. We pay for his tuition, books and room and board - he's responsible for everything else. This summer he has a better job than last (13 or 14 weeks, instead of 7) - we may get him to help pay for his books and some of his food. Last year he lived in res, next year it will be a townhouse on campus and he's said he'd rather cook for himself.

We try to teach both of our boys that they need to be responsible and while the older one isn't as good with money as the younger, he didn't run out (almost, but not quite) which was something, particularly as he ended up starting the year with a whole lot less than he'd intended on having. He doesn't drink generally (doesn't much care for it, thankfully) but last summer, when working in the US, he got somewhat pickled and his friends became concerned when he couldn't stop throwing up and carted him off to the ER. We had purchased health insurance for him - but of course, one of the things it DOESN'T cover is medical attention required because you got yourself drunk. So his two hours in the ER hooked up to a banana bag cost him a whopping $2,100, until he talked the billing office down to $1,400. He paid this himself and never once asked for help from us, which both surprised and pleased us - he clearly realized that it was HIS mistake and he'd have to deal with it. It was a hard lesson, but one he's taken to heart.

I do see a lot of parents who seem to coddle their kids - in their late teens they don't know how to cook or shop or budget or do their own laundry or deal with anything that doesn't work or even get themselves somewhere on the TTC. Both our boys have been cooking since they were little - the older one is a superb cook (his girlfriend loves that!) and the younger one loves to bake. Sometimes you have to back off and remind yourself that even though it's sometimes more work for you, letting them learn to do things for themselves is more important. When my older son's Macbook had some issues (under warranty) last year, I said "make an appt. at the Genius Bar" and he took it from there.

Both my husband and I are DIY-ers when it comes to most things, so our kids have learned by example. We don't hire people to do things we can easily do ourselves - so hopefully some of that self-reliance is rubbing off on the next generation. A lot of parents don't take that attitude though - they figure if they have the money, they might as well pay someone else to do the household maintenance, cleaning, gardening etc. So you get kids that haven't a clue how to do any of these things themselves, and Sonal has to deal with tenants who can't deal something as ridiculously simple as changing a fuse.

Our oldest has asked a couple of times if he could get a car (figuring he'd have enough for an older model) and we've said "sure - when you're making enough money to pay for gas, maintenance and insurance..." and that's the end of that discussion. I'm constantly amazed at the number of parents who buy their kids cars (with no real need for them to have cars) and pay for ALL of the associated costs with no input from Junior at all. And then they're shocked when Junior gets himself up to his neck in credit card debt. 

I don't think you should shove your kids out the door the minute they finish high school and refuse to help them at all (unless you REALLY cannot afford to help) but neither do I think you help them at all if everything is just handed to them. If they're old enough to have summer jobs, then certain things need to be their responsibility so that they learn the value of money and how to budget. If they're working full-time and living at home (as quite a few are these days) then they need to be contributing at least somewhat to household expenses, doing chores etc. You're not operating a hotel...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I put myself through university entirely on my own and it wasn't easy--worked 20 hours a week to keep myself going. I only discovered later that my father had quite enough money to at least make it a little easier for me to concentrate on school.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Macfury said:


> I put myself through university entirely on my own and it wasn't easy--worked 20 hours a week to keep myself going. I only discovered later that my father had quite enough money to at least make it a little easier for me to concentrate on school.


Same, but I never held him against it. There's no point really. I wish I could've done better in college but oh well, I graduated, but will have to retake some classes if I want to transfer on to university.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

dona83 said:


> Same, but I never held him against it. There's no point really. I wish I could've done better in college but oh well, I graduated, but will have to retake some classes if I want to transfer on to university.


I just moved on from it. But I was really pissed when he paid off my brother-in-law's school debts. I didn't qualify for more than a tidbit on the school loan program. It was his money to do with as he chose, but a little help--even a loan--would have made my schooling immeasurably more worthwhile.


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## singingcrow (May 6, 2005)

This topic has been brought up between me and my friends a few times over the last few months. I grew up knowing I'd be out by 18, not because my parents were pushing us out, but because that was the norm. I did have one benefit, and that was to live with them during the summers while I worked my butt off so I could save for the following year. They might not have paid for my school year in any way, but them giving me those few months rent free allowed me to go to school and not worry about working. I did come out with a school loan, but it was half of what it would have been had I not had that oportunity.

In talking to my friends, I'm finding that, first, it's a cultural thing. Many cultures in the East, Middle East, and Eastern Europe keep their kids at home until they've been traditionally married off. I find in Canada, when I was moving out, the kids with Asian, Eastern European, and Middle East backgrounds who were more than 2nd generation Canadian were also moving out, but those who were first or second generation Canadian, lived at home for longer. And no, I did not grow up in Montreal.

These days, I hear kids saying things like they expect their parent to allow them to stay home, one, because it's becoming the norm, and two, because they don't get that their parents don't have to let them stay, and could even be charging them rent. There's a sense of entitlement — no appreciation at all in some. Also some parent are not permitting them to learn life skills and are coddling them - trying to give them what they didn't have growing up, or hanging onto them. So I'd have to say it's a mix of these two, with a splash of culture.

And it's no all the younger generation, there are some that go out there and work hard and leave when it's appropriate for them (not necessarily at 18).

What really got my goat is when i read there was a study about this new generation of young adults having better saving skills then older generations. Ptff! I would too, if I lived with my parents and had no expenses!


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

My parents moved the east coast two months after I graduated high school. I ended up living with a friend and his dad and worked for the dad's company for 5 months. There were times that I couldn't afford my car insurance so I called my mom and she would send me the money to pay it. I ended up having to borrow about 5000$ in total in the first 5 years of independence. I didn't survive via my work ethic or knowledge, rather good luck and who I knew.

I was never taught any kind of budget and my first job wasn't until a week after graduation, but with thanks to my parents and friends I survived to have a modest living now. Just a month or so ago, I was talking to my father about them moving and knowing that I wouldn't move with them. He told me that they basically knew I wouldn't go and that's why they both agreed to help me out if I ever called them. He admitted to me that both my parents knew if I stayed living at home that I would probably high all the time and partying, which of course they were right, lol.

It was a tad stressful at times, but I am 30 with a house, 2 kids and a steady job. So it worked out for me.

As for my kids, I would encourage them to move out as soon as they are finished school, but as long as they are in school, they are welcome to stay (and pay rent after 18 of course).


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

*It's a 19 year lease and I don't renew*

That's what I used to tell my kids. 

They understood that they would be going off to school and from that point on they would only be visitors from time to time. The closest university was about 200 miles away. They picked the ones that were 400 to 600 miles away. For two of the kids, it was an 11 hour drive any way that I did it.

My wife and I thought it was really important that they be out on their own, make good friends that would give them support and become self reliant. That does not happen living at home.

The other side of the story is that we gave them as much support as we could. It was not good times in our family when all this took place. The town was dying and so was the business as a result. We moved out in the middle and went through our own changes. That being said, we went through $60,000 in RRSP's to keep their loans down. We never took any advantage of their tax deductions as students. But "High School Ended" abruptly and completely.

I believe that we tried to ride the middle road between what I see as two pernicious forms of abuse.

1. Stay and live at home and save some money.

a.) You do not leave high school. This is not a good thing.

b.) You live at a life style that you cannot really afford because the essentials are being paid for by someone else. This leads to a sense of entitlement and to bad habits. It's too hard to pay the real price.

c.) It skews your opportunities because the lens is always coloured by your freebee's. I saw kids turn down great summer job opportunities that would have put them in line for really good permanent jobs because they would have had to be away from their friends and they would have had to leave their comfort zone for the summer. It's a big country.

d.) It gives your parent "Helicopter Rights". They have already lived their lives. They have no right in any circumstances to also live yours.

d.) it leads to a form of sick co-dependancy between you and your parents. They are entitled because you are there and you are entitled because you are there. The water is muddier than a He said/She said divorce.

2. It's all up to me - My parents pay nothing

My experience with this one is the parents cry poverty while putting their children in a vice.

I ran into two bad cases of this. 

In one, a young girl comes into my friend's wood working shop. She is a close friend of his family. She is exhausted. She has worked all the time to pay for her education and is back from first year for a week and already working two jobs for the summer. No rest and frankly pretty run down. It comes up in the conversation that her parents can't afford to pay. I ask her if she has student loans. She tells me no. The government is unfair and she can't get them for some reason. I am the one who gets to tell her that the reason is that her parents are both working and her dad is a principal of a school and they are raking in over $100,000 per year and the mean government sees no reason that they should not sacrifice some of their lifestyle and hoof in some money. My friend had to tell her that I was not lying and that was exactly what was going on. It was a total revelation to her.

The other case was similar. In this one both parents had really good jobs and left her to hang. In addition, come tax time, they raped her deductions to lower their taxes. This is substantial over four years.

In both cases, because the parents cried poor, and no one called them on it, and the kid didn't know any better, the kid was left with no student loan capability and no support.

So, I think it is necessary for the kids to get away. Historically, the age of leaving for smart kids is the traditional age of apprenticeship - 13 years old. Leaving it until 18 or 19 is acceptable. Keeping on keeping on until 26 or 32 is not.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I would agree there isn't a one size fits all. Personally I pretty much jumped into the back of a touring vehicle the day I finished high school, and several years later when I needed a break I out myself through university. But tuition was far cheaper then than now, and it can depend on what city you want to study in. I think getting out there like I did can be a real wake up for anyone used to getting their laundry done and their being a full fridge when you walk in the door. I still have to keep filling that damn fridge.


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## singingcrow (May 6, 2005)

This is true, in order for me to get a student loan, my parents had to write a letter stating I was not a dependant. But then I had the balance of that no rent during the summers when I could breathe and have a chance to save some money too. I guess I was lucky, I had the best of both worlds, independence and support in finding it.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

I was out of the house and off to university at 18, but with the knowledge that my parents were there as a safety net if I needed it (and I did on a few occasions). My sister lived at home with our parents until she was 37. We're both perfectly capable people who are able to look after ourselves and no one was unhappy with the situation, so what's the issue.

There's no 'right' time for all kids to be out of the house; whatever works for the people involved is what's right.

It seems surprising to me that people have strong opinions about this.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

bryanc said:


> There's no 'right' time for all kids to be out of the house; whatever works for the people involved is what's right.
> 
> It seems surprising to me that people have strong opinions about this.


Best post in this thread. :clap:

I left home at 18 and worked and supported myself ever since.

Our oldest son left at 17, our youngest at 21. OTOH our daughter who is now 41 still lives at home. She has turned our basement into her own 'home within a home' and we are glad she chose to stay. She is a great help to us as we age and many tasks we used to enjoy, have become chores as we both suffer from arthritis. Gettin' old ain't for sissies.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

SINC said:


> OTOH our daughter who is now 41 still lives at home. She has turned our basement into her own 'home within a home' and we are glad she chose to stay.


Sounds like the same sort of situation as my parents had with my sister; she lived with them not because she wasn't capable of looking after herself, but because it was the in the best interests of everyone involved.

I know some people were appalled that she was still living at home at 37, but it was none of their business, and when individuals choose to move out is obviously a function of lots of factors that are going to be different for every person.

In lots of cultures, it's normal for an extended family to live in one house... grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, pets, etc. all benefit from being able to help one another. The north american "nuclear family" model is hardly normal, and I'd argue that it's far from optimal for most people.

That all being said, in general it's probably healthy for young adults to establish some independence from their parents, and parents who hover over their 20-something kids, making every decision for them and dealing with the details of life for them are doing the kids no favours.

Cheers


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Our daughter is a teacher and VERY independent. She makes her own decisions, comes and goes as she pleases and pitches in without being asked. We also look after her dog when she is gone and he keeps us company during the day when she works. It's a win-win for all of us. Thanks to me, she's an Apple user all the way too.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Obviously there are situations that work well for everyone. The root problem is the one where parents enable their children to overlook all responsibility and self-reliance. From the animal kingdom to the most primitive human cultures and the most advanced, teaching kids to get along in the world without their parents is a key responsibility of parenting.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

I think that people should leave the nest. High School should end. You go out and find out who you are and get some perspective. I know that there will be some exceptions.

From that point, yes I also think families should act as a unit if the personalities involved facilitate it ( I have seen one family where one sibling lived up north, one in Los Angeles and one in Atlanta ... and that was absolutely as close to each other as they could tolerate).

I also see no problems with kids and parents coming back together if it works for all. There can be some great happiness there. But it then is a true equal relationship with everyone winning.

I was railing against the two extremes; The perpetual, cloying, helicopter parent stilting their kid's development on one hand and the lying absolutely non supporting parent robbing their child on the other.

The instances I have seen of each I guess have really disturbed me.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

I agree with SINC and Bryanc, every situation is different. Our daughter was in her degree programme while she stayed with us, there was little work for her so it made sense. She is working on her Masters and is living on her own, she has a part time job so the maturation process is kicking in and she has exhibited considerable "growth" during this period.

That said, some kids you need to have out of the house as soon as possible as staying at home hinders their maturity.
The bottom line......what works best for you is all that matters......


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## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

bryanc said:


> In lots of cultures, it's normal for an extended family to live in one house... grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, pets, etc. all benefit from being able to help one another. The north american "nuclear family" model is hardly normal, and I'd argue that it's far from optimal for most people.


It is the same in my culture. I grew up in India, and I never left home until I moved out of the country; and that was when I was 35. I finished school, university, started working, switched jobs a few times, got married, and still stayed at home. That's how it was done in India.

Then, when your parents get old, you continue to live in the same house, and you get to support them now. No putting people away in old-people's homes etc. or setting them afloat on an ice-floe 

Cheers


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Macfury said:


> I just moved on from it. But I was really pissed when he paid off my brother-in-law's school debts. I didn't qualify for more than a tidbit on the school loan program. It was his money to do with as he chose, but a little help--even a loan--would have made my schooling immeasurably more worthwhile.


When my brother wanted to go serve in Afghanistan, my dad decided to pay for his schooling (which he never finished) and buy him a brand new Toyota Yaris in 2006. Even though he's making a decent living as a financial consultant now, I don't know if he's learned the true value of money just yet. He has gone through 5 new cars since then (crashed the Yaris), mind you he is a two-car family with his fiancée but hopefully he's grown out of it by now. I am saving for my children's education to at least get them through the first year, but I would never buy a car outright for my children. I might match 50 cents to every dollar they save but I was able to buy my first car in grade 12 on my own using money saved from my job and a decent tax refund. It was a rust bucket, an 86 Civic wagon, but it was a great car. I bought it barely knowing how to drive stick but mastered it (mostly, I had a rare stall a couple of days ago), fixed her up, drove her everywhere.

Though I would've really appreciated help from my dad, I wonder if I would've squandered all the money anyway like all the other kids do on cafeteria food, lattes, and maybe would've kept my car insured so I could drive instead of taking the bus. I lived off of $600 a month, that was my share of rent and utilities, groceries for 9 months of nothing but stirfries, glorified mac & cheese, and toast eggs and fruit, and made my own coffee, bus tickets to get to my part time job (I lived a 15 minute walk from campus) and my cell phone. Because this budget continued when I started working after graduation, a month and a half later I was able to buy my first Mac in cash, the iBook. A nice graduation gift for myself.

Like you, really I regret not having a better post secondary experience, but I got through it ok and came out a responsible person, both with my finances and with my work.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> I put myself through university entirely on my own and it wasn't easy--worked 20 hours a week to keep myself going. I only discovered later that my father had quite enough money to at least make it a little easier for me to concentrate on school.


Same here, Macfury. We are similar here except my father had little money and moved out of our house when I was 14. Maybe we are not twins after all???  Sad, always wanted a brother. :-(

Paix, mon ami.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

I have to believe this is entirely situational.

I had some friends who had everything laid for and they were spoiled brats with no life experience. Others who turned out fine. I've also got friends who had to take a job in high school because their parents struggled to keep a roof over their heads. Some of them turned out just fine, others, not so much.

I would take the same approach my folks did. Their rule was they would let me live their as long as I was going to school, but that wasn't a hard and fast rules they were reasonable and surprised me when I told them I was really to move out and they invited me to stay longer. It was entirely me who decided to move out at 20, one year after college. They helped with college tuition out of high school. They also had my brother to worry about who was in a more off and on again line if work so he moved back home a few times.

I think I begrudge the parents who make it too easy on their kids more than the ones who would help but can't. I've see too many people who became "momma's boys" or parasites, living off the good will of their parents and ungratefully assuming life owed them.

Then again, throw a chick out of the nest too easy some just never get the chance to fly.


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