# Ottawa to lose an Apple retailer?



## UnleashedLive (Aug 9, 2004)

The Mac Group is "slowly dying", this coming from someone who works there.

yay! good riddance to that horrible place. :clap: They gave Apple a bad name.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Disgruntled workers are known to criticize their place of work, though.  "Slowly dying" is vague at best.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Really? They seem to be doing well enough to give their site a complete overhaul.

They've always been good to me.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

*i disagree...*

I disagree that it's a horrible place and i think it's sad that people may lose their jobs if the rumour is true.

i've found their staff to be knowledgeable and friendly.

I think what hurts them is.... Apple.

i don't know the ins and outs, but from the small bits i hear, Apple's reseller agreements aren't very good for the reseller wrt to small kickbacks margins and stringent policies. ie. to buy another interal HD from the macgroup was about $250 more than buying it at another store. i think they are handcuffed into certain price points. I could be wrong though...

another reason is apple's online store. free shipping (usually pretty quick too) and the refurb store makes it hard to just drop it and buy stuff.

time will tell i guess.

Cheers,
Keebler


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

> i don't know the ins and outs, but from the small bits i hear, Apple's reseller agreements aren't very good for the reseller wrt to small kickbacks margins and stringent policies. ie. to buy another interal HD from the macgroup was about $250 more than buying it at another store. i think they are handcuffed into certain price points.


Pretty much.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I think that's why they also deal with used Macs. They probably make more off of old models than they do from new ones.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

I've done well at The Mac Group, with what I've bought there. I also found the staff to be friendly and helpful. And they're close by. 
I hope they're around for a long time.
A street-front location would sure help, instead of that second-floor walk up.


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

I've had good dealings with them, as has my sister-in-law (a switcher!), so I hope they're around for a long time yet!


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

I've been pretty disappointed with Mac retailers generally. I find their pricing overpriced or outdated.

Half of The Mac Group's web site under construction. Has it always been this way? I just moved to the Ottawa region and would love to find a great Mac retailer but this doesn't instill any confidence.

Also, not to pick on them but on the Carbon web site, the have a Sonnet Crescendo/PCI G4 700MH $399.95. Do they know this is going for US$149 directly from Sonnet Tech? They also have the Sonnet Crescendo/PCI G4 800MHz for $529.95 but Sonnet is selling their 1 GHz model for US$199. I noticed these only because I'm considering one for my old PM9600. Maybe when the Canadian dollar was at 70 cents, this pricing made sense but certainly not today when you can buy a refurb Mac Mini from Apple for around $500.

Also, in their "Specials" section, I dunno...maybe it's my 19" LCD monitor but the ads are just too small to read. Can anyone else read them or is it me.

Lastly, at Accurate-Tech, they're selling a XServe G5/2GHz Server for $2299. Don't they realize that Apple. ca has Intel Xeon refurbs for $2599 with twice the RAM, bigger HD, etc.

I could say more but why bother? When Mac retailers complain about how Apple treats then unfairly, etc., I just look at their operations and I'm not surprised by their inability to compete.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

The Mac Group's web site looks pretty finish to me, with the exception of a few pages.

The Mac Group | Ottawa's Apple Authorized Reseller

The only parts that have anything about being under construction is under the products. It seems they haven't finished updating their 3rd party stock.

The best thing you can do is simply visit the store (Carbon or MG for that matter) or call. Prices tend to change faster than the web can keep up. I find most Canadian retailers don't commit as much in the way of resources for their on-line presence (unless it's a big-box operation) as most of their clientele, I'd wager, are walk-ins.

~

On a separate note... does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that people are getting more and more dependent on web shopping--specifically when it's local businesses?

Why do some people limit their product research to just web sites and not taking the steps to contact the reseller and ask them why something costs a certain price if they notice a discrepancy? Don't be afraid to make human contact.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

not really, I always research stuff online, and hate waiting on hold just to get a price on something that should be on their site. I'm sure they'd rather I get the price online rather than them having to go answer the phone.

Come on now, I thought with iWeb even the busiest of people should be able to enter a few lousy numbers!


Hell even macdoc keeps his site updated with recent prices...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

even??...sigh....damned with faint praise ..


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

That's one of the reasons I deal with Macdoc. Prices up front and centre and great service to go with the package.

My new MBP in the spring like the one I have now, will come from his shop. No doubt about it.

We never see eye to eye on issues on the board, but that has no influence on my decision to buy from David.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

aw gee shucks...thanks.


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## UnleashedLive (Aug 9, 2004)

I've always like the organized hysteria that is the MacDoc site.  The packages they put together always look neat, I've never bought from them, but I'd consider it if I was looking.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

MannyP Design said:


> The only parts that have anything about being under construction is under the products.


Well, seriously, what else is there to the site?  The "About Us" and "Reach Us" could easily be combined to a single page and if I want a MacPro or iMac or whatever, I can just as easily buy from Apple.

You know, there's an old saying in business, "know your customer." I go to these retailers because I want to buy something I can't buy from Apple. When half the links under "Products" aren't there, it totally defeats the purpose of having a site and makes them uncompetitive.

Personally, what I do for a living is help businesses compete better and leverage technology to do so. When I see some of the web sites that computer retailers have, I just shake my head and wonder how long before they're out of business.



MannyP Design said:


> On a separate note... does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that people are getting more and more dependent on web shopping--specifically when it's local businesses?


I think it's actually a related note.  I totally agree with groovetube. Look, we're in 2007 quickly heading into 2008 and I dare say that any retailer without a strong web presence is in jeopardy of not surviving or being killed off by a competitor who's on the ball. That's just life. That's the society we live in.

All retailers, especially computer stores, need a strong web presence and an up-to-date site. Period. It's just a bad, bad sign when a computer store, of all places, has under construction pages, outdated prices, etc.



UnleashedLive said:


> I've always like the organized hysteria that is the MacDoc site.


Yeah, I find the site really cluttered and messy. It's like going to Winners vs. a boutique. I guess maybe that works for his clients. Doesn't work for me.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Chaotically so....meant to make you call or email ...it's a plot. 

We always have a big week when Apple opens a retail store :clap:

••

You clearly have little understanding of the channel and yes Virginia, Apple is playing the big bad wolf

TMO Reports - Apple Dealers Launch 'Tell On Apple' Web Site || The Mac Observer

Opening a retail boutique in the face of Apple's retail presence is slow or fast suicide depending on burn rate but it is suicide.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Opening a retail boutique in the face of Apple's retail presence is slow or fast suicide depending on burn rate but it is suicide.


Obviously true on many levels but there are ways to compete. The problem is, people want to continue doing what they've always been doing instead of adapting. Having an amateur web site is suicide. Poor service is suicide. Not adapting product lines and service offerings to meet large competitors is suicide.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Hey, not every retailer can have their website at 100% with respects to listing their stock. It's not easy considering the amount of products one can carry--especially if you're very busy. Not everyone can afford a inventory system that broadcasts their stock to their web site in realtime.

Regardless, it is very much possible to survive without a web site--businesses have done so for a millennia. Why should it be different now? I know of a few that do really well with walk-in clientele alone; their site is nothing more than a business card that tells people how to get to their store and their phone number. Some things need to be experienced in person in order for a sale to be made. A web site is not a personal experience... it doesn't offer the wiggle room that sales people can give in order to make a sale.

A web site can't give you that edge no matter what you believe.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Paradime you have no idea what you are talking about.
You clearly don't know Apple history, channel history in general or specific to Apple.

Do you really think that retailers getting new product WEEKS *after* the Apple Stores are stocked is accidental??? Just one of those things??

Luckily there are many that stick with their retailers out of loyalty and understanding and are willing to wait.

Do you really think Apple's out of this world corporate margins are accidental?
There are many here on this board that understand only too well what Apple has done to it's dealer base over the past 5 years.

Better you should consider what happens when you have no choice.

If Apple provided a level playing field in terms of product price, policies and availability and ran it's retail stores without corporate life support then maybe an Apple only Specialist retailer would have a fair shot at it.

It's NOT a flat playing field, Apple wants to dominate retail traffic and will do what's necessary to maintain that.
Apple is fighting a battle for market share far above the retail space and retail exposure and margins is just one weapon it has and wields regardless of collateral damage. There are casualties in war and independent Apple retailers are often one of them.

I'm not a retailer, have no interest in it.

However, when you want something done on Labour Day as 1/2 dozen clients needed today or at 3 am tho as this grateful client illustrates....










..we do our best.

..and we really don't give a tinkers damn what it LOOKS like. That's Apple's thing and they do it very well.

The big box stores wouldn't do it....so Apple has set the standard and have the highest sales per sq' of any retailer in North America ( large scale ),


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Also, as Canadians, keep in mind that the corporate Apple Stores, in Canada, are run out of Cupertino. That's why you get very different answers when calling Apple Canada and visiting the stores, about warranty issues. Always worth both calling _and_ visiting when necessary, and when possible.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> You clearly don't know Apple history, channel history in general or specific to Apple.


Actually, I do know what I'm taking about. I have a number of clients with storefronts (not run out of their house like some people). For example, I'm currently working with a group of retailers who are threaten by a big box store opening in their neighbourhood. It's not exactly the same situation but certainly similar. And I do know what Apple's doing with its retailers. It's common knowledge.

There are a number of successful Apple retailers with storefronts, like CPUsed, Carbon, CSC, and a few others. They do things Apple doesn't...like take trade-ins. They also do workshops, training and other value-add services. There are ways to compete. Also, their web sites are pretty good and usually up-to-date. It's easy for people to go to their site and get prices on exactly the items they're looking for without too much confusion.

However, I don't really hear any suggestions from you, MacDoc. What's your advice since you think you know what you're talking about. Of course, you have a vested interest in seeing these retailers fail, right?

Oh, and spamming people on this forum isn't always a good strategy for gaining new clients.  



MannyP Design said:


> Hey, not every retailer can have their website at 100% with respects to listing their stock.


Sure they can if they use the right software and infrastructure. I think a good example of this is Canada Computers. Even when they only had a couple of stores, they had a POS system that was synced with their web site (as far as I could tell) and fairly up-to-date. It doesn't even have to be real-time. Even if it's updated once a day or even once a week, that's certainly better than once a year.  

Anyway, it's not a question of if they can...it's something they have to do in this day and age to stay competitive. It's the cost of doing business.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Sure, if they can afford it or have the time and resources. It's not a simple matter, by any means.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I think macdoc needs to have a real snazzy full on flash experience, and oh yes you know, I can help.

It'll cost, oh, about what one of them snazzy 17" macbook pros I'm eyeing right now costs, or, there abouts.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

MannyP Design said:


> Sure, if they can afford it or have the time and resources.


I think that's a bit of a cop out because it's the price of doing business. It's like opening a store and saying you don't have the money for a neon or lit sign or shelving units or whatever.

Again, the inventory and pricing doesn't have to be produced in real-time. It just can't be months and months old.



MannyP Design said:


> It's not a simple matter, by any means.


No...it's definitely neither simple, cheap or quick to do. No doubt about that.



groovetube said:


> I think macdoc needs to have a real snazzy full on flash experience, and oh yes you know, I can help.


That would definitely be a good place for him to start.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Paradime said:


> I think that's a bit of a cop out because it's the price of doing business. It's like opening a store and saying you don't have the money for a neon or lit sign or shelving units or whatever.
> 
> Again, the inventory and pricing doesn't have to be produced in real-time. It just can't be months and months old.
> 
> ...


Any chance you could give me the name of your store? Or retailer?

I'd like to make a note of it to avoid locations with your attitude.


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## hUssain (Aug 10, 2007)

I wouldn't mind seeing a mac retailer in easily accessible retail environment, Mac Doc seems like a basement business, he's all about the clients, which is a good thing. But if your going to run like a normal retailer, then do so like one.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I can see why MacDoc does business the way he does and why his website looks like it does. There are many many customers who would rather just buy what they want, at better prices, who trust there will be follow-up service because they've received it before. They would rather not have to pay their seller's overhead, and the un-fancy website gives the impression that he isn't spending a lot of money on web design. That said, a simple homey website that is always available online works on that range of people who are his customers, or, I'm guessing, that website would be replaced.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If you call 2000 sq' and an 22 year multimillion dollar business -- basement sure.....that's my style indeed. Love it.
BTW I still have my first client from then and he was in yesterday dropping $2k and chatting for a couple hours over coffee.

Tell me in your wisdoms...simple question....you have say 50 orders for iMacs that you can't get but the Apple store down the street has them......how do you serve your client??

Meanwhile, rent, staff, advertising don't stop while you wait.....and wait.....and wait....

What do you do when you KNOW Apple has new iMacs on the way.....tell clients about them ahead of time??........stock the old ones??........

What do you do with the old ones when Apple's rebate on existing stock leaves still uncompetitive??

Tell us Paradime ..how long have you run YOUR business??...... that you pretend to advise those in hardware????

All businesses can do things better including Apple.......

That said they are in different battle and your local independeny retailer may well be a casualty.

Seen many independent hardware biz about lately??


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

hUssain said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing a mac retailer in easily accessible retail environment, Mac Doc seems like a basement business, he's all about the clients, which is a good thing. But if your going to run like a normal retailer, then do so like one.


I'd much rather use a "basement business" 3,000 km away than be ignored by the only Mac store in town.

As for a corporate Apple store, what a waste of time. The web based store has served me well online for years. And think of the money we've all saved without the overhead of "geniuses" and such. The only genius involved is Apple's using their "Apple Store Mania" for suckers who flock to their stores and make notes of their visits in their sigs.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> I'm guessing, that website would be replaced.


You guess right....we have two designers on staff.....

Here's one piece of their work

The Irwin Inn Resort on Stoney Lake - Ontario, Canada

I update the site sometimes hourly as things change and break.
Sometimes as with all sites things slip.

Those who know Macs tease the value out.....those that don't call or email - that's what we want as every client has different needs....sometimes they don't know what they need, sometimes they are ill informed.

Our staff don't turn over quickly we pay them a decent wage I wish was better but this biz ( not just the Mac side ) is brutal.

We have our model - we're content and it's paid kids through school and university, a few adventures and by and large I have WONDERFUL clientele. :clap:

It's shame the industry has lost a few good dealers - it's soooo sparse compared to the heyday of Apple dealerships.

A client was one of those but he got out at the peak and made millions in the sell out.

Tech is tough now. Prices change and drop daily. Models change weekly.
Easy to critique from the shore - far far harder to jump into the waves and swim.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

double post.


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## hUssain (Aug 10, 2007)

didn't think my basement comment would get that kind of attention, and it was relating to how basement business would want to keep their clients, and as Mac Doc has said he still has his first client. That's client support most companies don't have. Alot of retailers don't seem to care.

No offense meant MacDoc


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

We get it all the time and you'd be surprised the number that are still around that started in that mode and couple that wished dearly they perhaps had kept the client model instead of retail model.

No offense taken. Many of OUR clients run similar operations - far higher profile than ours.

Anyone care to list the Mac dealer casualties over time -chime in for your area.

Arkon was the first - long gone.

Solutions in Computing recently.

North Star??...not sure what their status is.

Micro Boutique was at one time a $100 million operation.

Place up in North York was huge - long gone.

Red Tag recently.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> If you call 2000 sq' and an 22 year multimillion dollar business.


Sure, sure...I've been to your house. My place is 2,850 sq.ft., so what? I've met you in person. I've seen your web site...it sucks and it always has. If you're doing millions, why not show some pride in your business and have a great web site or get a nice retail front? Heck, even I had a Bay St. downtown office. You say one thing but the appearances say something else.



MacDoc said:


> Tell us Paradime ..how long have you run YOUR business??...... that you pretend to advise those in hardware????


I've done well over the years. For the record, I started my business in the late 80s and incorporate in 1992. I have clients all over North America and I've won national and international marketing and design awards.

Sadly, this discussion has turned into a pointless pissing contest so if you have some credible advice for other Mac retailers, I'd like to hear them and I'm sure so would they.



MacDoc said:


> Easy to critique from the shore - far far harder to jump into the waves and swim.


Sure, easy to critique from the basement. Like I said, I'm working with retailers all the time to address these issues.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

SINC said:


> The web based store has served me well online for years.


Wow...that's funny! You said in your PM you don't agree with my point but here, you're saying exactly what I'm saying. Retailers need a strong web presence...that was my original point in this whole discussion!


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

After staying offline for the past 30 hours (which may be a record for me, certainly my personal best in 2007, I got caught up reading the posts in this thread. 

For a bit of background, I run a business consulting with businesses who use Macs and my goal is to assist them in using technology to improve the productivity. No I do not currently have a storefront or office space, I work out of my home. I don't sell Apple product and actually sell very little 'product' concentrating mainly on selling my consulting, training, and implementation services. However I've also had over 15 years working in retail, either directly in a store or working in the IT department or working for software developers who were developing retail IT solutions. None of it involved selling Apple products but I feel that with the experience I've had working in and with retailers, I am able to make some comments of my own. 

Yes I understand that Apple holds back product. Yes I understand that margins are slim. Yes I understand that it is tough to be an Apple Dealer. There have been changes that some long-time Apple Dealers have seen that they weren't planning for when they originally opened their doors. But here's a clue, it can be tough in any business, the successful ones are those that overcome adversity and find what works. Hmm, does this sound familiar? A certain 'fruit company' was looking at bleak times in the mid- to late 90's and what happened? They cleaned up a very confusing product line, focused their efforts on those parts of the business that worked, found new markets where they could profit, and turned things around. 

For years I was embarrassed to be a Mac lover in Southern Ontario. I'd sing the praises of the platform, and then whoever I would be talking to would say "okay where do I see one of these machines, where is the closest Apple retailer" and I would drop my head, kick the dirt, hum and haw and start to give directions to a place that was usually in the middle of nowhere (i.e. First Avenue) or explain that you had to visit during 9 to 5, not to try to visit on a weeknight, or a Saturday after 2 or 3 p.m. and certainly never on a Sunday. 

I don't know how many times I walked into some of the Mac dealerships all over Southern Ontario only to be ignored by staff to the point where I felt that I was intruding on them just to want to hand over some money for a product that I had found myself. There were other times when I was treated with such arrogance from some dealers that is was easy to understand why the rest of the IT world didn't understand us. 

Now I realize that these situations in many cases have improved, but they are still a long way from being ideal and yes I have experienced this during 2007. Criticize the Apple Stores all you want, but there is a vibe and enthusiasm that you get walking into them that is sadly lacking in many other retailers, regardless of the type of product they carry. They are also located in areas where people go to shop! Yes I know that very few businesses can afford to locate themselves in malls such as Sherway and Yorkdale. However why do companies like Carbon (downtown Kitchener, Queen St. East shopping area) and Creative Technologies (on a busy retail street in Burlington) find storefront locations that are easily accessible to potential customers? 

The location of your store and the hours that the doors are open need to meet the needs of your customers, both the current customer base AND potential new customers. It's back to school time, Mom and Dad have got running around to do to get everything on Johnny and Janey's lists, do you really expect them to drive out of their way to look for a computer that "their brother's wife's uncle's neighbor" says will be a better investment than what is available at the big box store? Only to arrive and find that the owners don't really care that Mom and Dad work for a living and can't make it from Monday to Friday between 9 and 6?

And if they do manage to find your location, and arrive before the doors are closed, don't treat them like a piece of dirt. I'm not looking for the false "hello my name is Steve and I'll be your waiter tonight" greetings that too many retailers insist their employees follow like little robots, but I would like a "hello" or "welcome". Anything to make me feel like they understand that without me walking in to their store, they'd be out of a job. And if Mom and Dad don't know about Macs, don't treat them like they've been stupid up to now. Be honest and helpful. Talk to them in language that they can understand. Explain the benefits of the platform, find out if they have any special requirements where ... gasp... a Mac might not be the right solution and if that's the case, tell them the truth!

As for the use of technology to accurately provide information regarding your products. You reap what you sow. For all of those retailers who think that there sites are 'good enough', let me ask you this, would you advise a customer that their site was 'good enough' if you knew that there were options out there? Of course you wouldn't. You shouldn't complain that 'this is unfair' or 'that is unfair' when you don't want to make an investment to improve your business. Those of us that are consulting to our customers on how to make the best use of technology or those that are selling any form of technology should 'walk the walk' and not just 'talk the talk'.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

gwillikers said:


> *Okay, I ran some tests on this thread, and this is what I'm seeing in the lab...*
> 
> View attachment 3636


:lmao:


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

So Paradime

2000 sq ' is the operational part not the whole place.

No mention of hardware there in your "record"......funny that. Bottom line - you still don't know, it's clear from your comments.
You moved from Bay St to a basement office - why was that?? - overhead costs perhaps??

$2 million in sales pays a decent wage to staff and myself - nothing more.....and the web site serves us quite well.

You haven't answered the question posed .......*what do you tell clients about the Imacs you can't get but are available down the street at the Apple Store through no fault of yours??*
You think it's a flat playing field??...it's not.

•••••••
Oakbridge


> For years I was embarrassed to be a Mac lover in Southern Ontario. I'd sing the praises of the platform, and then whoever I would be talking to would say "okay where do I see one of these machines, where is the closest Apple retailer" and I would drop my head, kick the dirt, hum and haw and start to give directions to a place that was usually in the middle of nowhere (i.e. First Avenue) or explain that you had to visit during 9 to 5, not to try to visit on a weeknight, or a Saturday after 2 or 3 p.m. and certainly never on a Sunday.


That is exactly why Apple decided to go retail to provide that look and buzz.



> Mom and Dad work for a living and can't make it from Monday to Friday between 9 and 6?


......and that holds true as you well know for self employed clients whose time is valuable and appreciate off hour and late hour times both for discussion and acquisition.

The thread is important so Mac buyers know the challenges hardware retailers - especially Apple only specialists face..and much is not of their choosing.

Retail in particular is based on local traffic not web driven traffic.
Some in remoter locations do both online presence and local store front.

Retail, versus VAR versus online laundry list has gone on long before the computer industry came along - will continue to present manufacturers and those that handle and recommend their products with a maze to solve.

Case in point.....nice $20k+ sale to a new client of all Mac product last week.......financed by......Dell Financial!!!??


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

This thread does beg the question, then, where do some resellers with no direct link to Apple get their new computers? Not that I'm going to ask that, of course.


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## nick24 (Jul 11, 2006)

Good debate going on here - including the MacDoc vs. Paradime supporting bout. I've visited the Mac Group on the recommendation of a colleague. Once I found it, climbed up the stairs, and swealtered in the non-AC'd environment, I found the staff to be great. I had a few questions that they helped with, but I felt they let themselves down in terms of product availability. If I recall correctly, they couldn't get hold of MacBooks or Pro models and that the best thing to do would be to go to the Apple Store in Toronto (I jumped in and told them that the closest would be Laval, saving the customer a good few hours in the car). On the one hand, this was a shame, as I'm sure they would have loved to have made a sale, but on the other hand, in my mind, this is great customer service, as they are helping the customer in their request for a product.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> So Paradime2000 sq ' is the operational part not the whole place.


Sure, sure...your 1,000 sq.ft. basement, a 500 sq.ft. upstairs den and the 500 sq.ft. garage as your warehouse. Are you also including your driveway and street as your 10 car parking lot?  Again, I've seen your operation first hand so save the banter for someone who hasn't.



MacDoc said:


> You moved from Bay St to a basement office - why was that?? - overhead costs perhaps??


Overhead costs? No, I have an accountant who tends to write these things off.  And who said anything moving to a basement? All the references here to basement operations have been towards you.

Anyway, the reason I don't have my Bay St. office anymore is that many of my clients are now largely American firms who never visit here. It didn't make sense after a certain point to have a fancy offices. Besides, I moved from Toronto to Ottawa.

...but you're running a retail operation. What's your excuse?

You say your web site has served you well but it's a joke. Sure, you've been in business for 20+ years and you have a core set of clients but how much new business have you lost out on? When I decided to buy my MacPro a few months ago, I totally ignored you because you looked so amateur. I just bought from a established (reputable) retailer.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

HowEver said:


> where do some resellers with no direct link to Apple get their new computers? Not that I'm going to ask that, of course.


You can get Macs from certain distributors, Ingram Micro or Tech Data-types, but the margins are really, really slim if you go this route. Usually not worth it unless you're a VAR and it's being bundled into a much larger solution.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Paradime said:


> You can get Macs from certain distributors, Ingram Micro or Tech Data-types, but the margins are really, really slim if you go this route. Usually not worth it unless you're a VAR and it's being bundle into a much larger solution.


Those distributors will not sell you Apple products unless you are Apple Authorized to resell them. Margins are slim both this route and directly from Apple. It really makes no difference where you get your Apple products from to resell them. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) That being said, this thread still then begs the question...


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

Lars said:


> Those distributors will not sell you Apple products unless you are Apple Authorized to resell them.


I was under the impression that it was easier to get authorized as a VAR and purchase from distributors vs. being a retail shop where you get better margins but you're expect to sell a certain volume per year.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Paradime said:


> I was under the impression that it was easier to get authorized as a VAR and purchase from distributors vs. being a retail shop where you get better margins but you're expect to sell a certain volume per year.


Requirements for VAR's (Value Added Reseller) are more stringent (at least in the beginning) than for AAR's (Apple Authorized Reseller). Both VAR and AAR's can purchase from both distributors and Apple directly (if they so choose).


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

Lars said:


> Requirements for VAR's (Value Added Reseller) are more stringent (at least in the beginning) than for AAR's (Apple Authorized Reseller).


Really? Hmm...you learn something new every day. Last I look into this many, many years ago, it was a little different.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Okay time for someone to moderate this thread as it's clearly run right off the rails. But before that happens, I'm going to chime in and say to "Paradime" [sic] that what you did in this thread is really bad form. 



Paradime said:


> Sure, sure...I've been to your house. My place is 2,850 sq.ft., so what? I've met you in person. I've seen your web site...it sucks and it always has. If you're doing millions, why not show some pride in your business and have a great web site or get a nice retail front? Heck, even I had a Bay St. downtown office. You say one thing but the appearances say something else.


Don't use a public forum like this to crap all over a small business owner just because you're looking to settle some petty score. As someone who claims to be in business, I would have thought you'd know at least a few things about manners. Or at least a little about applying common sense.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Originally Posted by MacDoc
> 
> _So Paradime 2000 sq ' is the operational part not the whole place._
> 
> Sure, sure...your 1,000 sq.ft. basement, a 500 sq.ft. upstairs den and the 500 sq.ft. garage as your warehouse. Are you also including your driveway and street as your 10 car parking lot? Again, I've seen your operation first hand so save the banter for someone who hasn't.


Yeah right...and no you haven't been here and no I don't run a retail operation so you're batting zero on all counts...and yes I have the records of YOUR purchase.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by MacDoc
> 
> _You moved from Bay St to a basement office - why was that?? - overhead costs perhaps?? _
> 
> Overhead costs? No, I have an accountant who tends to write these things off. And who said anything moving to a basement? _All the references here to basement operations have been towards you._


Yes we've noticed which is why you get it back. No we don't operate from a basement and you DO operate from a house for your own reason as we do for our own reasons yet you dump on us......my my how hypocritical....do your clients know you operate from a basement??? 



> Anyway, the reason I don't have my Bay St. office anymore is that many of my clients are now largely American firms who never visit here. *It didn't make sense after a certain point to have a fancy offices*. Besides, I moved from Toronto to Ottawa.


Oh I see conditions change and you adapt - remarkable insight.....so overhead costs that were unneeded....as I said.



> ...but you're running a retail operation. What's your excuse?


reading challenged ......*I don't operate retail, it's entirely by appointment and I have no interest in retail.*

I also have no interest in growth - our model works for us and our client base.
We do no formal advertising and let our help on forums and referrals from clients work for us...which it does. To maintain the same dollar level we automatically grow 10-20% in unit volume each year as prices drop in nearly all categories.

What YOU are peddling for your Services is perhaps appropriate to your corporate American Armani suit clients and not to the clients or the Mac specialists trying to cope with a not level playing field tipped Apple's way. 
Easy to keep up pretences from across the border I guess. 

So why do you pretend to advise hardware sellers from a position of knowledge which you don't have?

You don't understand hardware or the restrictions and you still dodge the missing iMac question.....

Nick24 has it in a nutshell



> I found the staff to be great. I had a few questions that they helped with, but I felt they let themselves down in terms of product availability. If I recall correctly, *they couldn't get hold of MacBooks or Pro models and that the best thing to do would be to go to the Apple Store* in Toronto (I jumped in and told them that the closest would be Laval, saving the customer a good few hours in the car). On the one hand, *this was a shame, as I'm sure they would have loved to have made a sale*, but on the other hand, in my mind, this is great customer service, as they are helping the customer in their request for a product.


There in is the heart of the independent Apple retailer plight....and for that matter the plight of many independent retailers.......

I purposefully try and support the independents where I can ( baristas in particular ) as I value diversity.

and regularly thank all those who have supported us over the years....
as I do just now. :clap: Thanks.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Oh I see conditions change and you adapt - remarkable insight.....so overhead costs that were unneeded....as I said.


If I ran a retail operation like selling computers, I'd definitely have commercial space and a good web site.  



MacDoc said:


> So why do you pretend to advise hardware sellers from a position of knowledge which you don't have?


Again, I'm consultant with some retailers (boutiques, specialty goods, etc.) as clients and not hardware sellers.

Do you actually read these posts because you keep misquoting or assuming things that aren't true. Are you as sloppy with your clients? You know, that's exactly why I don't do business with you. Every time I've purchased or gone to purchase something from you, you screwed things up.

Anyway, I've received a bunch of PMs from people and I have to tell you, you're really hurting your reputation by going on with this. You've actually offended some of your own clients who are self-employed or consultants such as my self with your boasting, criticisms, nonsense, etc. Great work! :clap:


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

(( p g )) said:


> Don't use a public forum like this to crap all over a small business owner just because you're looking to settle some petty score.


Actually, if you go back and re-read the thread without bias, you'd realize I was attempting to address the issue of how Mac retailers could improve things and compete better by leveraging things like the Internet and having up-to-date content and pricing. It was MacDoc who boasting about his 2,000 sq.ft. operation and multi-million dollar business. So, I'm not sure why you're quoting my response instead of his initial boast.

Besides, MacDoc has a vested interest in seeing all his competitors die. Maybe that's why he's attacking me. Whereas I have a vested interesting in seeing Mac retailers succeed because I depend on them for my computing needs.

Also, I agree and I said this previous, this thread has definitely gone off the rails. If a moderator wants to lock it, they definitely should.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Paradime said:


> Actually, if you go back and re-read the thread without bias, you'd realize I was attempting to address the issue of how Mac retailers could improve things and compete better by leveraging things like the Internet and having up-to-date content and pricing. It was MacDoc who boasting about his 2,000 sq.ft. operation and multi-million dollar business. So, I'm not sure why you're quoting my response instead of his initial boast.
> 
> Besides, MacDoc has a vested interest in seeing all his competitors die. Maybe that's why he's attacking me. Whereas I have a vested interesting in seeing Mac retailers succeed because I depend on them for my computing needs.
> 
> Also, I agree and I said this previous, this thread has definitely gone off the rails. If a moderator wants to lock it, they definitely should.


Actually, I did read the entire tedious thread. You stopped making that cogent point of yours several pages ago. Now it's just petty and bordering on the absurd. 

So please...stop. It's just embarrassing.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Indeed... :clap:

•••••

The thread IS important despite the noise so that Mac buyers can make informed choices and understand why their fav supplier might not have stock or be able to match policies.

If you don't hear from other retailers lets leave THAT to the tin foil hat crowd 

•••

BTW supply of new machines is running at 20% of backorders at one major distributor.

Last week was told by another that out of 500 units ordered the distributor got 10 

Either Apple direct is having a gangbuster roll or supply is running far behind demand.....both good for marketshare - not so good for the individuals waiting.....

I mean Mac users never want *instant gratification* do they???


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

Paradime said:


> Sure, sure...I've been to your house. My place is 2,850 sq.ft., so what? I've met you in person. I've seen your web site...it sucks and it always has. If you're doing millions, why not show some pride in your business and have a great web site or get a nice retail front? Heck, even I had a Bay St. downtown office. You say one thing but the appearances say something else.
> 
> 
> I've done well over the years. For the record, I started my business in the late 80s and incorporate in 1992. I have clients all over North America and I've won national and international marketing and design awards.
> ...


you know Paradime, I may not have many posts here, but i read plenty of them and let's just say you don't pull any punches do you? I find your attitude disappointing to say the least which is my opinion.

You and MacDoc can continue to knock each other and make your points, but I have to comment on one thing you said about 'spamming people here', or along that line. i'm too tired to try and find the exact post b/c this is one long thread, BUT... if that was directed at MacDoc, which I think it was, I think a lesson on sales practices needs to be addressed. 

I just bought a refurb'd 24" (white) imac from apple.ca. MacDoc took the time to contact me when he saw a post I had wrt to a question on the imacs. I completely appreciated the time and would have done business with him, but unfortunately, my order was in the final stages and couldn't be cancelled. He was willing to deal and answered any questions I have.

So again, if that spamming comment was directed at him, you are completely 100% off base as that type of personal communication is appreciated and personalized.

I will make one more point - you talk about 'having pride' in opening a retail store. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I'm a solid common sense guy and if I was making great money working from my 'home' or 'basement'....why in God's name would anyone sane think about opening a storefront????? Just to sink tons of money into overhead which goes to waste? Some people like making their millions and keeping it that way. Why worry about having a storefront to get more clients if you have a consistent of REPEAT clientele....which btw, is the BEST type of clients to deal with. you don't have **** around with them to make a sale b/c you know each other and it's good to go.

The website 'sucking' is your opinion of course. I may not think it 'looks' the best, but in terms of finding information and getting contact with MacDoc, it does the job perfectly and that is all one needs for a website. The problem with today's website culture is they try to dress it up way too much and the overall goal of the site fails. MacDoc's site may not be pretty, but it works.

Now....continue to rant on.

Cheers,
Keebler


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> why their fav supplier might not have stock or be able to match policies.


Just wondering...since you run your hardware sales business out of your home, does your house have a commercial or residential rating. Obviously, this affects your property tax rates. Do you have commercial liability insurance on your house since you're running your business out of it?


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

keebler27 said:


> I find your attitude disappointing to say the least which is my opinion.


I've received a number of PMs agreeing with my assessment. The number 1 comment people make about MacDoc is that he's arrogant.

So, yes, I'm being a little too aggressive and I *apologize* to the members here for that but I'm not going to be bullied or whatever by Mr. multi-million dollar, 2,000 sq.ft. operations guy telling me I'm wrong or I don't know what I'm talking about.



keebler27 said:


> So again, if that spamming comment was directed at him, you are completely 100% off base as that type of personal communication is appreciated and personalized.


No, that' not what I was referring to. I posted an ad in the wanted section about purchasing a copy of Mac OS X Server (new or used). He responded to the ad asking me how much I'm willing to pay for a used copy. I said as cheap as possible. Well, what else was I suppose to say.  He never responded back. Fine...no problem. However, all of a sudden, I started receiving copies of his e-mail newsletter.

Now, to his credit when I e-mailed a cancellation request, it was honored but I didn't like the fact that I was automatically enrolled in the first place.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Why don't you stay on topic?
I've continually had to correct your disinformation about what independent Mac retailers face.
..and also disinformation about my own biz. If you call setting the facts straight boasting it just shows your lack of real understanding of the channel and of volume hardware business be Mac or otherwise.

You talk about boutique businesses - high margin with reliable supply can afford snazzy space online and in person and cater to RETAIL walk by traffic.
There are categories of buyers that appreciate that - most are new comers to the Mac and Apple has done an admirable job of attracting them to its stores....hence the high per sq' sales. Apple puts the stores in high traffic - high cost locations....it has a huge( by comparison to the industry ) corporate margin to work with.

Few communities have the density to support a Mac only retailer yet deserve having a local support.

Apple at one time promoted that and indeed there are numerous smaller suppliers - many of whom WE support...and they do indeed supply a local Mac presence.

A loss of any independent is a blow to the Mac community. In my view a balance between local access and corporate is best.

Apple and other primary manufacturers have searched and continue to search for the best balance of retail, specialist and support in communities of all sizes.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

An-y-how...

As a business owner, I had one experience with the Mac Group and I found they were reasonably okay. But I really think their location really hurts their chances of staying in the game in Ottawa for the long-term. As it stands right now, Ottawa-based Mac users have but a few choices for buying from a retailer: the BestBuy/Future Shop big box locations scattered around town, or the Mac Group. That's pretty much it as far as I know. Maybe there are others and if so, I'm sure I'll hear about it. But my point is this: Ottawa is a tough, tough town to make a successful go of it as a Mac retailer. The market share and penetration level is considerably smaller here than Montreal or the GTA. 

And as others have pointed out, Apple doesn't exactly make it easy for any of them to stay alive to begin with. So here it's very much like trying to swim with both your arms tied behind your back. 

I exaggerate. But only slightly.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

Paradime said:


> I've received a number of PMs agreeing with my assessment. The number 1 comment people make about MacDoc is that he's arrogant.
> 
> So, yes, I'm being a little too aggressive and I *apologize* to the members here for that but I'm not going to be bullied or whatever by Mr. multi-million dollar, 2,000 sq.ft. operations guy telling me I'm wrong or I don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> ...


thanks for clarifying. sorry i read that wrong and i'm glad i was wrong.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

(( p g )) said:


> An-y-how...


Great...getting back on topic.  

I guess the question (maybe) is to ask how can smaller retailers improve their situation. Or is it just inevitable that Apple's retail chain will squeeze out everyone else?



keebler27 said:


> thanks for clarifying. sorry i read that wrong and i'm glad i was wrong.


No need to apologize. I didn't post the details as to why I was referring to MacDoc as a spammer so you had no way of knowing.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Ottawa is a tough, tough town to make a successful go of it as a Mac retailer. The market share and penetration level is considerably smaller here than Montreal or the GTA.


Yep - a 'tweener market. Not quite big enough but tempting.

YOU are in the best position to comment ......what are you looking for and does retail location actually influence your buying?

I'm sure availability would be one major criteria.......

Also how much does Mac only appeal??


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## jaline (Jul 7, 2007)

groovetube said:


> not really, I always research stuff online, and hate waiting on hold just to get a price on something that should be on their site. I'm sure they'd rather I get the price online rather than them having to go answer the phone.


Agreed. I'm not much of a talker and I always do extensive research online before I make big purchases. It is very helpful when a company has an online presence and keeps everything (especially prices) up-to-date.


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## jaline (Jul 7, 2007)

(( p g )) said:


> An-y-how...
> 
> As a business owner, I had one experience with the Mac Group and I found they were reasonably okay. But I really think their location really hurts their chances of staying in the game in Ottawa for the long-term. As it stands right now, Ottawa-based Mac users have but a few choices for buying from a retailer: the BestBuy/Future Shop big box locations scattered around town, or the Mac Group. That's pretty much it as far as I know. Maybe there are others and if so, I'm sure I'll hear about it. But my point is this: Ottawa is a tough, tough town to make a successful go of it as a Mac retailer. The market share and penetration level is considerably smaller here than Montreal or the GTA.
> 
> ...


Yup, pretty much.

As much as I would love to go to an Apple reseller, I always choose Futureshop and/or Best Buy for products because they're in a more convenient location.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> YOU are in the best position to comment ......what are you looking for and does retail location actually influence your buying?


Location is a *huge* issue. I'll gladly pay a little for the convenience of having a place that's easy to get to and has parking. A well-located indie store could use that as a great differentiator against the gridlocked big-box stores.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

What about Mac only??

versus say for instance Vistek ??

Is your goal info gathering or eyeballing a selection of product?


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## hUssain (Aug 10, 2007)

MacDoc said:


> What about Mac only??
> 
> versus say for instance Vistek ??
> 
> Is your goal info gathering or eyeballing a selection of product?


I'm a gadget guy, I love to see what's available in store, but it has to be convenient location. As P G said, I'd also like to support the retailers and local business', but they are in inconvenient locations, so I end up supporting the devil (futurebuy). As a browser, it's inconvenient. When I make a big purchase, I like it to be on hand and quick purchase, if I have to order and it takes the same amount of time as the online site, and I have to go out of my way, it's also inconvenient.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> What about Mac only??
> versus say for instance Vistek ??
> Is your goal info gathering or eyeballing a selection of product?


When I go looking for hardware, it doesn't matter to me whether it's an Apple product. Compatibility, on the other hand, is a big deal. 

Actually that's something that the Mac Group does rather well--show a good selection of products that are Mac compatible. It sure is a great draw for me and again it's something that the b-boxes seldom do. 

And it's too bad because nothing sells product quite like putting it right where the customer can see it and try it.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

My daughter is in Ottawa so I understand the location aspect - the damn city sure sprawls.

I too like browsing - I find Best Buy decent for the toys - mice etc.

Thanks for the insight.


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## nick24 (Jul 11, 2006)

Good to see that this discussion has now come back on-topic, although I have been enjoying the banter...

Apple Retail Stores have an amazing drawing power. Over the last month, I've been in the NYC 5th Avenue store, the NYC SoHo store and one in Syracuse. Why? I have no idea! I'm not in the market for buying a new machine (and when I do, it will be through the refurb store) but I could not resist going in to these places. OK, I'll fess up - the 5th Ave visit was just to see what the fuss was all about - and to get my hands on an iPhone - but the other two? No idea! But, each time I was in them, all were packed. Why? The hands on experience? The Apple experience? The 'I've got to check my email' syndrome?

(I guess we could say the same about Futureshop and BestBuy - I tend to find myself going into these stores to check out the electronics, but very rarely do I purchase, unless I have something specific to buy.)

What few of us are able to talk about with any degree of certainty is the retail side of selling Apple products. I have no idea what mark up MacDoc (etc) puts on his products. Indeed, I'm guessing retailers are pretty much told how much they have to charge for Apple goods, as you very rarely see major differences (either above or below) Apple online or retail prices. Operating in this environment must be tough where the retailer has very little (or zero) influence on product price. Granted, a Tim Horton's or McDonald's franchise has little influence either, but here we are talking about cheap items that sell in high volume, as opposed to expensive electronics. 

MacDoc obviously has a business model that works for him. Cool. My opinion is that the website could be a little better looking and perhaps more functional (for example, I clicked the link in the sig to find out more about Superduper, but couldn't find the info - PM me please, MacDoc, with some info - thanks). I don't like visiting website and seeing "call for a price" signs, as the reason I'm browsing is that I don't want to call. Mind you, there are hundreds of other websites like this which obviously work. Personally, I place a certain level of trust and reliance on the look and feel of this user experience, but maybe I am alone here.

Paradime obviosuly has done well in the past, but is coming from a different angle. Maybe he's right too, but you can't apply the same template to every business, and as a consultant, I'm sure Paradime knows this.

Sorry for the long post, I just got carried away!


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## jasonwood (Oct 19, 2003)

nick24 said:


> I'm guessing retailers are pretty much told how much they have to charge for Apple goods, as you very rarely see major differences (either above or below) Apple online or retail prices. Operating in this environment must be tough where the retailer has very little (or zero) influence on product price.


Not exactly. In Canada it is illegal for a supplier to exert any sort of "influence" on pricing. That's why you see "Dealer may sell for less" so frequently when a manufacturer advertises a product that they don't sell directly.

Section 61 of the Competition Act:
"No person engaged in business or holding intellectual property rights directly or indirectly, by agreement, threat, promise or any like means shall attempt to influence upward or discourage the reduction of the price at which another business supplies or advertises a product."

This is very different from in the USA where at least MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) enforcement is allowed.

The reason Macs always seem to be priced the same is because there is almost no margin in them. You can make more on a minor upgrade than the whole computer.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

nick24 said:


> What few of us are able to talk about with any degree of certainty is the retail side of selling Apple products. I have no idea what mark up MacDoc (etc) puts on his products. Indeed, I'm guessing retailers are pretty much told how much they have to charge for Apple goods,


Funny...MacDoc has continuously said he's not a retailer. To quote him, "no I don't run a retail operation." Be he keeps taking like he does and often comments on things as if he is a retailer.



nick24 said:


> MacDoc obviously has a business model that works for him.


Yes, it's kind of cheating, isn't it. Pretending to be a retailer but saying you're not a retailer. Run a "multi-million dollar" business out of your house with 2,000 sq.ft. allocation with employees but doing it in a place that isn't zoned commercially (correct me if I'm wrong), therefore not paying the proper taxes. Also, not having commercial liability insurance (again, correct me if I'm wrong). No wonder his prices are so good. If I was the guy who owned Carbon or CSC or any other "real" Apple retailer, I'd certainly lodge a complaint.



nick24 said:


> Paradime obviosuly has done well in the past, but is coming from a different angle. Maybe he's right too, but you can't apply the same template to every business, and as a consultant, I'm sure Paradime knows this.


There's a really good series of books similar to this topic by Clayton M. Christensen on the concept of disruptive technologies. It's an excellent read for anyone who's self-employed


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## nick24 (Jul 11, 2006)

Semantics , dear Paradime, semantics. 

What "retail" is in your eyes obviously differs from MacDoc's view. To me, retail means to buy and sell items for a profit. I'm pretty confident that that's what MacDoc does - as in he purchases items and them sells them at a greater price to make a profit. (And you too, Paradime, sell your product - ie your design and marketing service - at a price that is great enough to cover your overheads and provide you with a profit).

In reading your above posting, I'd be extremely wary if I were you, because IMHO, they could be viewed as libelous.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

nick24 said:


> Semantics , dear Paradime, semantics.
> What "retail" is in your eyes obviously differs from MacDoc's view. To me, retail means to buy and sell items for a profit.


Maybe but he should just admit he's a retailer instead of saying that I'm wrong for calling him a retailer. He's not a distributor or a wholesale business, right? I don't understand what he is, then.



nick24 said:


> And you too, Paradime, sell your product - ie your design and marketing service


I don't sell products, I provide a service. There is a difference and even our taxation system sees the difference. When you sell products, you also charge PST. For a service, you only charge GST. Pretty simple.



nick24 said:


> In reading your above posting, I'd be extremely wary if I were you, because IMHO, they could be viewed as libelous.


That could go both ways. MacDoc saying that I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. especially when I do have retail clients could be view as libelous. If any of my clients come on this site and read those comments, it could impact my business relationship. It's one thing for him to say that he disagrees with me or that his experience is different from what I'm suggesting but to say I don't know what I'm talking about could be libelous.

Either way, one of my best friends who was in my wedding party is a lawyer (so is his brother) so legal action doesn't bother me. In fact, my friend might enjoy it.


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## nick24 (Jul 11, 2006)

OK, given that it was I who started the semantics line, perhaps I should have put the word product in quotes, but you know where I am coming from.

My post was in reference to you saying,



> Yes, it's kind of cheating, isn't it. Pretending to be a retailer but saying you're not a retailer. Run a "multi-million dollar" business out of your house with 2,000 sq.ft. allocation with employees but doing it in a place that *isn't zoned commercially *(correct me if I'm wrong), therefore *not paying the proper taxes*. Also, *not having commercial liability insurance *(again, correct me if I'm wrong).


It wasn't a dig, just me pointing out that if these allegations are incorrect, then you have committed libel and may well contributing to your lawyer friends' bank accounts over the next few weeks. As well as MacDoc's.

Help me with this question - I have friends who are lawyers, work for the RCMP and are accountants. Does that mean I can break tax laws, libel laws and any other law of the land and not fear any consequences?

I realize that I have posed a few questions here, but this p!ssing contest has gone on for long enough. This is the last time you'll hear from me on this topic. 

MacDoc - good luck to you with your business ventures.
Paradime - best of luck to you too.

Let's just rejoyce the fact that we've all seen the light and have chosen to spend our money - via a retail establishment or otherwise - on products designed in California.


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## Paradime (Jan 24, 2006)

nick24 said:


> It wasn't a dig, just me pointing out that if these allegations are incorrect, then you have committed libel and may well contributing to your lawyer friends' bank accounts over the next few weeks. As well as MacDoc's.


You're assuming that I can't also, in turn, bring libel suits against him for his respective comments. I wonder who's going to be paying whom.

Besides, I did ask him previously to answer these questions and his response was, "Why don't you stay on topic?" So, I took that as a "no" because I'm sure he would have responded in the positive otherwise.

Regardless, I'd still like to know because I wonder how his prices are so much lower than everyone else's. I've also purchased from him in the past and I believe my questions are legitimate as a previous client and general consumer. I want to know who I'm doing business with. I did preface my comment with "correct me if I'm wrong." I stand to be corrected if I'm mistaken and I'm willing to apologize accordingly. Simple as that.

Ultimately, I've received a number of PMs of people sharing their experiences with MacDoc. I'll take this as far as he wants to take it. If he wants to continue to throw in his cheap shots against me, I will continue. If he wants to end it, so will I.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

An-y-ways... I think this farce has gone on long enough. Everyone has put in their 2-cents and nothing constructive has come from it since. 

Maybe time for the mods to stitch it closed?


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