# RRRrrrr Time to replace the car



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

OK... I've about had it with our 1999 Chrysler Intrepid. The other day the battery cable broke and took a good portion of the wiring with it, leaving my wife on the QEW with no power whatsoever (not even the blinkers). $400 later I have now drawn a line in the sand. If I have to put more than $2000 into it, we are going to get rid of it. 

Now to replace it... In an ideal world I would replace it with a Prius, Civic hybrid, Camry hybrid or VW TDI. Unfortunately none of these vehicles are often ever on sale or available as recently used. What are my other options? 

I understand the Yaris is very economical and this really is just for a second car. BTW... I do not see vehicles as an investment, they are a depreciating asset at best. Any thoughts? 

PS... I'll never buy a Mazda again.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

da_jonesy said:


> BTW... I do not see vehicles as an investment, they are a depreciating asset at best. Any thoughts?


At last, someone who has the same view of cars that I do. 

My first question would be, what are you looking for in a car? Is it just a question of price, or are there other factors?

That said, I have had good experience with Nissan cars--my 10 year old Altima is my second (I've driven it for 7 years) after a 10 year old Stanza, which my brother and I drove for 8 years. 

I am horrible at keeping my car probably maintained, and yet, I've had very few mechanical problems with the Altima. In fact, it was just this year that I've had any major repair expenses since after 10 years in Toronto, parts start to rust out and need replacing. 

Granted, I no longer drive very much (about 130K on my car) but the Stanza was close to 200K when it died--due to improper maintenance. (Timing belt wore out; my brother is no better at maintaining a car than I am.)


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

I am an Avid Toyota and Honda Fan...and like good computers (Apple) foreign cars hold thier value for a number of reasons. To find one on sale is always the challenge! I would look into a good used TDI from VW they are awesome runners too but make sure the timing has been done and it's been well maintained. The TDI's will go forever and you can find them for a decent price around the GTA and out here in Guelph, KW etc.

The newer Hondas and Toyota's that re hybrids are expensive and I never buy brand new if I can help it. You might look around and find one used if your lucky


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

> PS... I'll never buy a Mazda again.


How come?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

buying a 2 yr. old car usually gets you a good deal as someone else has paid the depreciation

i'm BMW fan so i can really comment on your choices


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Can't go wrong with a Toyota. We bought a Corolla as our second vehicle and I absolutely love driving that car. Superb on gas, great resale plus it has the fit and finish of a car well above its budget line. Great dealer service, too.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

We are a two scooter family.
My girlfriend has a Vespa LX150 and I have a Derbi Blvd 150,
The gas is cheap, Insurance is cheap and the parking is free.

Trouble is...We can't drive them in the winter,
But we now have lots of scootering friends though.

Dave


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## Jason H (Feb 1, 2004)

I'm going to suggest you take a look at the Dodge Caliber. The new world engine/CVT looks like a good combination.

I'm sorry to hear about the Intrepid :-( I'll give her a good home and nurse her back to health  

Interesting bit of trivia: The Chrysler designers went to Japan to study the boys at Honda before designing the LH series of cars (Chrysler LHS, Dodge/Chrysler Intrepid) LH is rumoured to stand for Last Hope  

Thankfully they weren't inspired by Honda engines.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

You'll rarely go wrong with Toyota or Honda. My friend just bought a new Toyota Matrix AWD and it's very nice. Considering the snow & ice you have to contend with in your neck of the woods, AWD would be a big plus. Personally, I will only buy a 4x4 or AWD vehicle from now on.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

Check out prices on a used Honda CRV. It's my next purchase. Realtime AWD and great on gas. 

I'm in an 01 Civic right now.. love it. 250,000 kms on it, mind you.. I had to replace the transmission a month ago. Runs like a dream now.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

My 2001 Suzuki Grand Vitara Limited 4 x 4 has had nothing but oil and filter changes. Trouble free and great in winter conditions. Also a fun off road rig to explore the back country when out camping.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

Check out www.CanadianDriver.com for all your car-advice needs. 

That said, what you buy depends largely on your preferences and price range. Since you mentioned the Prius and its ilk as being out, I'm guessing you're looking somewhere in the ~$20 000 range?

Fortunately for you, there are plenty of great cars in that range right now.

Honda Civic - available as an oh-so-sexy coupe, or a very nice looking sedan, with bulletproof reliability and great gas mileage. Don't be turned off by the digital dash, it only takes a little getting used to.

Honda Fit - smaller than the Civic, with a smaller engine. Amazingly configurable seats that move in a million different ways so you can carry a bike in the back seat... check out their website for more info on the "magic seats", but suffice to say, they rock. Also reportedly a lot of fun to drive.

Mazda3/Mazda3 Sport - You said you'd never buy another Mazda, but if you stick to that mantra you're missing out on what might be the best compact car on the market today. Give them a chance. 

Hyundai Elantra - Hyundai's recent offerings have been stellar, and various awards show they're rapidly approaching or have caught up with Honda/Toyota in terms of quality and reliability. Can't go wrong here.

Hyundai Accent - Smaller and cheaper than the Elantra. 

Nissan Sentra - the new Sentra is leaps and bounds ahead of the old one, but still not as good as the Civic/Corolla/etc.

Toyota Yaris - ridiculously popular, great on gas, and reliable as rock. Still, most tests have put it behind the Honda Fit overall.

Toyota Corolla - a perennial favourite, there's no denying the Corolla is a good car. Boring to drive, but it will likely run forever with little worry. Can't go wrong there.

Volkswagen Rabbit - lots of power, three or five door configurations, and a real German driving experience. Well equipped for a good price, too.

Volkswagen City Golf/City Jetta - the last generation Golf and Jetta are back, for a lot less money. Underpowered an riding on a decade-old design, they're still solid cars, and deliver a lot more bang for the buck than anything else in their price range.

Dodge Caliber - ugly, cheap, and coming from a company with historically poor reliability. Only attraction imo is the All Wheel Drive trim.

Ford Focus - popular choice, can be had for cheap, and decently reliable. Not the best car for your money, but not the worst, either.

Chevrolet Cobalt/Pontiac Pursuit G5 - A good car that got left in the dust by the wave of new models from the Japaneses automakers. While it would have competed well with the previous-gen Civic, it's simply not up to the standards of the new one. That said, you can probably get a good deal on it, and again, there are worse cars for you money.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Check out a new or used Hyundai the market still hasn't caught up with there improved reliability. I had a 2002 Accent GSi up to last year when I traded it in for a my Santa Fe the Accent was reliable and cheap on gas, and on the 120,000k's that I put on it I only changed the timing belt at the 100,000k mark and changed the brake pads at 85,000k mark other than that the oil was changed at every 5,000ks. Now for some advice Hyundai's are good cars now but anything before 2002 should be gone over with a fine tooth comb.

Laterz


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Demosthenes X said:


> Ford Focus - popular choice, can be had for cheap, and decently reliable. Not the best car for your money, but not the worst, either.


Great list and I agree with most of it, I had a 2000 Focus ZX3 and there are huge problems with the 2000-2001 range but after that it's smooth sailing and there were updates in 2004. Be carefull on the Ford side find yourself a good dealer otherwise your experience could be catastrophic like mine was that I will never buy another Ford product ever again.

Laterz


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> BTW... I do not see vehicles as an investment, they are a depreciating asset at best. Any thoughts?


then buy the vehicle with the lowest depreciation vs. purchase price that you can afford.

will likely be the Civic (i bought the 2006 model with the digital dash last summer) or the Corolla.

the Civic is made is Alliston Ontario, so no need to listen to the Ford thugs who will try to tell you that you're a traitor to your country.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

How about a vehicle that is almost a car:
http://www.mp3.piaggio.com/index_eng.html

You get free street parking with this one in the Toronto area.

Dave


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Lars said:


> How come?



My 2001 Mazda MPV is horrible. Underpowered. I literally have rust (ie. holes) on the trim on both the Passenger and drivers side doors. In this day and age I find it abhorrent that external body parts would show visible rust perforation.

Soooooo.... No Mazdas ever again (too many Ford components).


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Thanks for the feedback folks... it has confirmed some of the things I've been feeling.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

da_jonesy said:


> OK... I've about had it with our 1999 Chrysler Intrepid.


Trust me you are not the only one who has had problems with their Chrysler. My friends intrepid has had nothing but consistent electrical problems, sensor replacements, and a whole lot more. What finally did them in was when the engine finally gave out. Apparently when he to the Chrysler dealer he was notified that Chrysler is currently under a lawsuit with regards to the intrepids serious reliability problems. 



MACSPECTRUM said:


> buying a 2 yr. old car usually gets you a good deal as someone else has paid the depreciation
> 
> i'm BMW fan so i can really comment on your choices


My neighbor has a BMW and I must say it is one of the nicest riding cars that I have ever been in it reminds me of the Volvo S80's ride characteristics. BMW, Volvo, and Mercedes all make fabulous automobiles! My mothers Mercedes which I will be driving this year back and forth from college and home is a fabulous ride. Solid, dependable, safe, and excellent gas millage. The only thing is I find the suspension is just a little....little too tight. The BMW has a more cushiony ride which makes it an excellent candidate for long trips. 




imactheknife said:


> I am an Avid Toyota and Honda Fan...and like good computers (Apple) foreign cars hold thier value for a number of reasons. To find one on sale is always the challenge! I would look into a good used TDI from VW they are awesome runners too but make sure the timing has been done and it's been well maintained. The TDI's will go forever and you can find them for a decent price around the GTA and out here in Guelph, KW etc.
> 
> The newer Hondas and Toyota's that re hybrids are expensive and I never buy brand new if I can help it. You might look around and find one used if your lucky


Honda and Toyota both make a reliable product. Between the two though I was told Toyota was better, but I could be wrong. I am not overly familiar with Honda or Toyotas track record for reliability.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

K_OS said:


> Check out a new or used Hyundai the market still hasn't caught up with there improved reliability. I had a 2002 Accent GSi up to last year when I traded it in for a my Santa Fe the Accent was reliable and cheap on gas, and on the 120,000k's that I put on it I only changed the timing belt at the 100,000k mark and changed the brake pads at 85,000k mark other than that the oil was changed at every 5,000ks. Now for some advice Hyundai's are good cars now but anything before 2002 should be gone over with a fine tooth comb.
> 
> Laterz


I'll never buy Hyundai again.

My 2001 Santa Fe is the biggest POS on the road. Here is a list of problems:

• New transmission
• New O2 Sensors
• New Speed Motion Control Sensors
• New ECM
• Transmission failing again
• Need to replace the steering pump.

Not to mention all of the little problems I've had. Hyundai's are designed and built in Korea. this means they are not meant for Canadian winters. everything corrodes on them including the wiper arms.

While they are inexpensive and have a great warranty, the problems that go along with them are not worth it. I do have to say though that they do make an engine that lasts.


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

da_jonesy said:


> OK... I've about had it with our 1999 Chrysler Intrepid. The other day the battery cable broke and took a good portion of the wiring with it, .......


 I wasn't there, but the only way I can visualize that happening is if the battery or the starter fell out. If that's what happened, the car wouldn't be to blame - just poor maintenance.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Gerbill said:


> I wasn't there, but the only way I can visualize that happening is if the battery or the starter fell out. If that's what happened, the car wouldn't be to blame - just poor maintenance.


I wonder how many people actually follow the manaul's maintenance schedule? Probably few to none, save for myself. I follow it to a "T", and never had a problem with my Mazda.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Lars said:


> I wonder how many people actually follow the manaul's maintenance schedule? Probably few to none, save for myself. I follow it to a "T", and never had a problem with my Mazda.


arrogant padawan


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

He's no Jedi.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Lars said:


> I wonder how many people actually follow the manaul's maintenance schedule? Probably few to none, save for myself. I follow it to a "T", and never had a problem with my Mazda.


Your car is two years old.

Following the schedule or not, you shouldn't be having problems with your Mazda within two years.

Report back when you car is 10 years old.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

My Suzuki is six years old and I have followed the maintenance schedule, also with no problems.

Anyone who does not, and who fails to maintain the schedule even after the warranty has expired, is simply asking for trouble.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Gerbill said:


> I wasn't there, but the only way I can visualize that happening is if the battery or the starter fell out. If that's what happened, the car wouldn't be to blame - just poor maintenance.


148,000 KM on a car bought new in the fall of 1998 (so not even heavily driven). Every 5000K Oil change... and a rotating schedule of service based on what the Chrysler dealership recommended.

So that um service would prevent the broken clips and window motor that caused the drivers side window to come up askew? And the service would have prevented the burnt out fuse which prevent the fan control knob from working?

Apple101 has already pointed out that the electrical system on this model is prone to trouble and NO amount of maintenance would prevented the issues I am having.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

We have been following the maintenance schedule for our '04 Suzuki Aerio, as well as having babied the engine for the first 2000 k, and we have had no significant problems with the drive train or engine. We've had the car's cabin heater fixed once and the door trim on driver's door had to be fixed but that's about it. I doubt I would have followed the schedule on my own but the missus wouldn't have it any other way... and I'm actually glad of it. Following the schedule hasn't been rigorously demanding (nor hideously expensive) and if it's saved us some grief then I really can't complain.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Sonal said:


> Your car is two years old.
> 
> Following the schedule or not, you shouldn't be having problems with your Mazda within two years.
> 
> Report back when you car is 10 years old.


He doesn't have that long to wait... 2001 Mazda MPV... new alternator in 5 years and rust perforations within 6... Again regular maintenance does not prevent those issues.


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## Jason H (Feb 1, 2004)

I see a recurring theme in this thread: CARS SUCK.


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## Strimkind (Mar 31, 2005)

1 word: Volvo


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Strimkind said:


> 1 word: Volvo


Three words: Expensive and overrated.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

I'm narrowing things down to a Civic Hybrid (Prius is too expensive), A Yaris (will know more after a test drive), or a VW City Jetta (Would prefer the TDI, but too expensive).

The Civic is $26,250 (less $2000 Ontario Sales Tax Credit)
The Yaris Sedan is $18,745
The City Jetta is $23,120

To be fare, the Yaris is not in the same class as the Civic or Jetta, but to it's credit it does rate highly in terms of milage.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I would stay far, far away from a VW Jetta:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/vw_jetta.html


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

da_jonesy said:


> I'm narrowing things down to a Civic Hybrid (Prius is too expensive), A Yaris (will know more after a test drive), or a VW City Jetta (Would prefer the TDI, but too expensive).
> 
> The Civic is $26,250 (less $2000 Ontario Sales Tax Credit)
> The Yaris Sedan is $18,745
> ...


Between all three your best bet would be the Jetta. Its not only a much safer car then the other two but Volkswagen is suppose to make a very reliable product. SINCS post however detests this.




Strimkind said:


> 1 word: Volvo


YEAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!



SINC said:


> Three words: Expensive and overrated.


Three words quality and safety. My friend has an S90 it rolled over 150000 miles (It was purchased in the states) and its still going strong. Thats 241,401 KM. Thats pretty dam good. Also were do you get the idea that they are over rated?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Apple101 said:


> Between all three your best bet would be the Jetta. Its not only a much safer car then the other two but Volkswagen is suppose to make a very reliable product. SINCS post however detests this.


I hardly "detest" it. I merely pointed out that VWs carry a reputation for unreliability and expensive repairs.



Apple101 said:


> Three words quality and safety. My friend has an S90 it rolled over 150000 miles (It was purchased in the states) and its still going strong. Thats 241,401 KM. Thats pretty dam good. Also were do you get the idea that they are over rated?


I fail to see what a "dam" has to do with a car, but I digress. I have known Volvo owners since the early 70's and time and again they tell me that the car is overrated. Many have found similar quality, safety and comfort in cars costing much less. Hondas and Toyotas especially.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> I fail to see what a "dam" has to do with a car, but I digress. I have known Volvo owners since the early 70's and time and again they tell me that the car is overrated. Many have found similar quality, safety and comfort in cars costing much less. Hondas and Toyotas especially.


No need to be a smart aleck. My parents have known Volvo owners since the 60's in fact one of them still has their P1800 and their Amazon. One of the clients that my dad has dealt with owns a Volvo S80 Executive and he has nothing but good things to say about the car. I have a number of friends who drive Volvos and they have told me it is their car of choice compared to their Lexus, Acura, or Subaru just to name a few. Also you will never find a Honda or Toyota that is as structurally durable then a Volvo or BMW and Mercedes for that matter. Honda and Toyota cant even touch them. You let me know how many Honda or Toyota saved my life stories there are in high speed collisions then get back to me. Also you still haven't answered my question as to why you think they are overrated. I am looking forward to your response.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Apple101 said:


> Also you still haven't answered my question as to why you think they are overrated. I am looking forward to your response.


Just what part of this:



SINC said:


> I have known Volvo owners since the early 70's and time and again they tell me that the car is overrated. Many have found similar quality, safety and comfort in cars costing much less.


did you miss?

Volvo owners I know, including a dear friend who still owns a P1800 Station wagon, admit this freely.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> Just what part of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope your friends 1800 is in the high millage club as well. You must admit though they are a beautiful looking car  

I don't see how they are overrated. How do your friends seem them as over rated?

That reminds me of a few people I know how think Macs are expensive and overrated. I ask them how and they cant seem to give me a straight answer.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Sigh, simply put, friends who used to own Volvos and switched to other brands attained just as much longevity, comparable comfort and service from a vehicle costing thousands of dollars less, thus Volvos are overrated.

But it appears pointless to contest this with you as you are, from your signature at least which I just noticed, totally convinced they are better. Be my guest. Dream on:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/volvo.htm


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> Sigh, simply put, friends who used to own Volvos and switched to other brands attained just as much longevity, comparable comfort and service from a vehicle costing thousands of dollars less, thus Volvos are overrated.


Really?!?! Gee a few people I know couldn't say that about their element or RAV4. They were thankful that their lease was up and took my advice and got an XC90 because since then one 3 years and the other two years now both told me they would never even dream of going back. You cant tell me that an average joe car is going to have the same comfort as an executive luxury car. That kind of statement belongs on a comedy network.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Apple101 said:


> You cant tell me that an average joe car is going to have the same comfort as an executive luxury car.


It kind of depends on what you notice and what matters to you.

I have driven my father's Mercedes numerous times, usually on very long drives. And my car is a 10 year old Nissan. 

Honestly, I really don't notice the difference. It's not that there is no difference--it's just that I don't pay attention to it. I mean, the automatic lights and wipers are great, and the ride is a smoother, but the differences don't really register strongly with me. It doesn't matter to me. Luxury cars are wasted on me. 

But I'm very much a "cars are just for getting you from Point A to Point B" kind of a person.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Apple101 said:


> You cant tell me that an average joe car is going to have the same comfort as an executive luxury car. That kind of statement belongs on a comedy network.


I'm not trying to tell you anything. It is obvious you have been brainwashed to favour Volvos. Good for you.

My point, like Sonal's is simply that many people find far cheaper models to be just as comfortable and serviceable for thousands of dollars less.

I had the opportunity to lease a Mercedes or a Volvo in 2000 (and test drove both) and I wouldn't have traded either of them for my current ride at the time. It had just as many creature comforts and power as either of the others at a far cheaper price. It IS all relative and "European" does not automatically mean extra quality. But hey, if you can afford the ego trip, and that is mostly what it is, go for it.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

MaxPower said:


> I'll never buy Hyundai again.
> 
> My 2001 Santa Fe is the biggest POS on the road. Here is a list of problems:
> 
> ...


If I had those kind of problems with my Santa Fe I would also think again about buying a Hyundai but so far it's been smooth sailing compared to my Ford experience. You are right on the wiper arms I repainted the ones on my Accent and my dad's Elantra but the rest of the body if properly rust checked and maintained won't rust.

Laterz


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Sonal said:


> It kind of depends on what you notice and what matters to you.
> 
> I have driven my father's Mercedes numerous times, usually on very long drives. And my car is a 10 year old Nissan.
> 
> ...





SINC said:


> I'm not trying to tell you anything. It is obvious you have been brainwashed to favour Volvos. Good for you.
> 
> My point, like Sonal's is simply that many people find far cheaper models to be just as comfortable and serviceable for thousands of dollars less.
> 
> I had the opportunity to lease a Mercedes or a Volvo in 2000 (and test drove both) and I wouldn't have traded either of them for my current ride at the time. It had just as many creature comforts and power as either of the others at a far cheaper price. It IS all relative and "European" does not automatically mean extra quality. But hey, if you can afford the ego trip, and that is mostly what it is, go for it.




Ok first of all I have not been brain washed to think anything. Thats like me asking you why did you purchase a Mac (which is the Rolls Royce of computers) when you could of purchased a PC with Windows XP Home for much less and supposively is of comparable quality? 

I purchased my Mac because they are the most over engineered computers in the industry. Their superior hardware just goes beyond what the rest of the industry could even touch. But it just so happens when you buy a quality system you get a number of other awesome "luxuries" if you will. You pay a little more but you are getting a quality system. The same goes for a car. Mercedes and Volvo are one the most over engineered cars in the industry. (I believe BMW was the same way, I am not sure Macspectrum could probably answer that for you.)

Sure I might be a little over obsessive about Volvo but its because it saved my mothers life. Emergency services told her that if she was not in that Volvo she would of been dead. That to me is a good enough reason to stand by the brand. If it weren't for Volvo or Mercedes you wouldn't have what we have today in automobiles. Remember that.

Lets see a Nissan, Honda, or Toyota do this...

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w123-e-ce-d-cd-td-te-class/1300085-w124-torture-test.html

Also could your Nissan, Honda or Toyota withstand being crashed into the swedish mountains or pull an over 2 ton full size trailer in hell?

http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=880&fArticleId=3119850


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Apple101 said:


> Ok first of all I have not been brain washed to think anything. Thats like me asking you why did you purchase a Mac (which is the Rolls Royce of computers) when you could of purchased a PC with Windows XP Home for much less and supposively is of comparable quality?


I purchased a Mac because I needed a new laptop, did not want to 'upgrade' to XP because after many years as a Windows user I did not believe XP as a significant improvement over 2K, and at the time found that in terms of price/features, an iBook was a better value at the time than most PC laptops. But overall, I switched for the OS, not the hardware. I only cared about the hardware up to the point that it would be reasonably functional for my needs. 

But my point is, it's all about what you notice and what matters to you.

You see, I notice that the Mac is based on BSD and that I can open up a Terminal window and use UNIX commands. This matters to me, but does not matter to (for example) my father, who is not computer-savvy. To me, this makes a difference. To him, it doesn't. 

Similarly, I'd never buy a Benz because to me, it's way too much to spend on something that gets you from point A to point B faster and in more comfort than the TTC. My father has not owned anything BUT a Benz since 1984. To him, the status car makes a difference. To me, it doesn't.

Is a Volvo more comfortable than my old Nissan? Probably. Is my Nissan sufficiently comfortable for me? Yes. Does the increase in comfort between a Volvo and my Nissan justify the price for me? No. 

This is my longwinded way of saying that we all have different priorities in life, and for some of us, an overengineered car is not one of them.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

Sonal said:


> Is a Volvo more comfortable than my old Nissan? Probably. Is my Nissan sufficiently comfortable for me? Yes. Does the increase in comfort between a Volvo and my Nissan justify the price for me? No.
> 
> This is my longwinded way of saying that we all have different priorities in life, and for some of us, an overengineered car is not one of them.


Thats great! But if you haven't noticed, I was not making luxury the number one priority. One of the MAIN reasons as to why my father purchased my mother a Mercedes was because of safety, quality and reliability plain and simple. But it just so happens that it comes with a number of other features that some deem useful while others not so much. My mother being involved in a serious accident while she was in her friends Volvo as stated in my previous post is one of many examples of why having a vehicle that is over engineered is important because it may very well one day save your life. THATS what's important! If you only view those vehicles as a waste of money on luxury then I would suggest that you study about their innovations. Again I will reiterate; If it weren't for Volvo or Mercedes you wouldn't have what we have today in automobiles.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

And I am very happy for you that Volvo saved your mother's life, and that there are car companies who continue to innovate on safety. (And yes, I am aware of many of these innovations.)

For myself, however, I am perfectly content to take the less expensive and less engineered car, even though that means that I am less safe in my vehicle on the road. We all chose our own risks in life.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

Apple 101, the original poster is not going to buy a Mercedes or a Volvo. Shall we move on?

DaJonesy said:


> I'm narrowing things down to a Civic Hybrid (Prius is too expensive), A Yaris (will know more after a test drive), or a VW City Jetta (Would prefer the TDI, but too expensive).
> 
> The Civic is $26,250 (less $2000 Ontario Sales Tax Credit)
> The Yaris Sedan is $18,745
> ...


Why not just get the normal Civic? Costs thousands less, is the basically the same car, and not that much difference in the mileage (I can get 650km to the tank on the Hwy. Costs $35-40 to fill).

Plus, you get proven reliability, whereas the hybrid technology could turn out to suffer from problems we don't yet know about.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> Apple 101, the original poster is not going to buy a Mercedes or a Volvo. Shall we move on?
> 
> DaJonesy said:
> 
> ...


True, however with a loaded Civic Sedan costing close to the same as Civic Hybrid (after the $2000 tax credit) I'm thinking of go for the Hybrid.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> Why not just get the normal Civic? Costs thousands less, is the basically the same car, and not that much difference in the mileage (I can get 650km to the tank on the Hwy. Costs $35-40 to fill).


Good point. The hybrid technology is an advantage for lots of stopping and starting (regenerative braking) and idling. If the driving is primarily highway or low km total (DJ, I think you said your past vehicle was only lightly used) then hybrid may not be the best choice. If the environment is the issue, consider applying the saved cost difference to something (more productive) for the environment.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Beej said:


> Good point. The hybrid technology is an advantage for lots of stopping and starting (regenerative braking) and idling. If the driving is primarily highway or low km total (DJ, I think you said your past vehicle was only lightly used) then hybrid may not be the best choice. If the environment is the issue, consider applying the saved cost difference to something (more productive) for the environment.


That's a good point, I could spend the saved dollars on replacing all of our home's lights with CF bulbs (nope to late already did that... and it wasn't cheap).

I'd love to throw up a Windmill Boom or Solar Panels on the roof... which if there were viable vendor who offered this kind of stuff in our area I would seriously consider.

My thing with a Hybrid vehicle is that I believe in the efficiency of the device. It is the way all cars should be built. Personally a car is only a transportation device for us. As it is, I don't commute as I work from my home office. Unfortunate we are not in a position to move into Toronto proper where I could just forgo the second car altogether and take public transit.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Small scale wind and solar electric are available from a number of vendors but are still very expensive (particularly solar) and I'd recommend other options before them. Other options like more efficient appliances, space heating, insulation, water heating etc. can deliver good benefits per $. 

It would require specific calculations to find the best way (home financing may also be more expensive than car financing). Maybe hybrid is the best way for your situation, maybe not. 

If it's a matter of supporting the technology itself, that's another matter. There may be provincial programs to support your decision.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> Apple 101, the original poster is not going to buy a Mercedes or a Volvo. Shall we move on?


This thread got a little out of hand after SINC stated that those types of cars were overrated. I was not telling anyone to buy that type of car. In fact in my other post when da_jonesy listed the cars that he was looking at I recommended the Volkswagen.

I still say Volkswagen


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## 10macs (Feb 14, 2004)

I've owned two new GM vehicles (pos's), three Hondas (excellent but expensive) and am on my first Hyundai (Tuscon). The quality and workmanship in the Hyundai (and Kia) is incredible. The Koreans are going to take over the world.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> I'm narrowing things down to a Civic Hybrid (Prius is too expensive), A Yaris (will know more after a test drive), or a VW City Jetta (Would prefer the TDI, but too expensive).


If Winter driving is a concern it might be worth adding a Subaru Imprezza to your list, as it is in the same size and price range as the others and Subarus with Winter tires make great snowmobiles.


da_jonesy said:


> My thing with a Hybrid vehicle is that I believe in the efficiency of the device. It is the way all cars should be built.


Even if you think all new cars should be fuel efficient and environmentally friendly, I don't think it is reasonable to suggest that all new cars should be hybrids as there are other approaches to building a green car and I don't think one implementation should be favoured over another.


da_jonesy said:


> As it is, I don't commute as I work from my home office.


If you don't commute, is most of your driving on the highway, or at off peak times when you don't encounter a lot of stop and go traffic? If so, then a hybrid might not be right for you.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

SINC said:


> I have known Volvo owners since the early 70's and time and again they tell me that the car is overrated. Many have found similar quality, safety and comfort in cars costing much less. Hondas and Toyotas especially.


There are considerations other than "quality, safety and comfort" - for example, if someone likes they way a Volvo (or any other car for that matter) looks, drives, impresses the neighbours, etc. I can see why they would choose it over another otherwise comparable car.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

PenguinBoy said:


> There are considerations other than "quality, safety and comfort" - for example, if someone likes they way a Volvo (or any other car for that matter) looks, drives, impresses the neighbours, etc. I can see why they would choose it over another otherwise comparable car.


Agreed, but please, give us a break and don't force feed me that your particular favourite Volvo is the end all. Most of us are smarter than that and can make our own decisions.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.canada.com/driving/story.html?id=42853d12-cca4-46c2-aa98-6ef053b8b804

Some information on Ontario's hybrid sales tax rebate.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Beej said:


> http://www.canada.com/driving/story.html?id=42853d12-cca4-46c2-aa98-6ef053b8b804
> 
> Some information on Ontario's hybrid sales tax rebate.


Thanks... that is good to know. I believe that my 1999 Intrepid wouldn't count as a high value trade-in. I'll be luck to get $2000 or $3000 for it. And if it did impact the rebate I'd just as likely put it in the auto trader (and probably get more for it anyway).

Our issue now is trying to figure out if we want to go new or for something around a year old (letting someone else take the initial depreciation hit). If we go that route than the Hybrid is right out as no one is selling them used. Then the dilemma is that is we stick with a Honda or Toyota, we will not be able to find a recent one where the real depreciation has happened because there resale value is so high. This was never an issue for us in the past because we have only bought Mazda, Chrysler and Hyundai previously.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

In used, your best value is going to be a last-generation Hyundai Sonata. Very decent car, and because they're still so underrated, inexpensive compared to the competition.

Buying a 2005 Civic right now would simply be foolish, since the 06 Civic is so many miles better than the old car and not well worth the extra expense. There are some 06 Civics for sale used, but they're few and far between, and not cheap. The same is largely true of the Corolla, because a new model has been recently released (iirc).


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

I have had superb service from my 2003 Kia Spectra. Excellent dealer servicing and it has just kept ticking along through more than 100,000 km. Yes, the initial depreciation hit is big, so looking for a one or two year old vehicle, of any make, is good financial planning. I have to agree with Demosthenes X in terms of the Koreans flying under the radar; their cars have been underrated. Based on personal experience and reading various reviews, I'd suggest that you consider Hyundais and Kias from 2003 onward.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Demosthenes X said:


> In used, your best value is going to be a last-generation Hyundai Sonata. Very decent car, and because they're still so underrated, inexpensive compared to the competition.


Just a quick note that the last generation Sonata's 2.4L engine was a rebadged Mitsubishi powerplant and was not that great of an engine to begin with as it would go trough allot of head gaskets and some owners reporting having to replace timing belts 10,000k's sooner than what was said in the owners manual, do not get the new Sonata's 2.4L confused with the old one as the new 2.4 is superior on many fronts compared to the old Mistu unit.

Laterz


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC,
you mentioned "European" isn't always better

I had a Honda Prelude that was practically dying of rust at about 180,000 km
even tho' a front wheel drive, the back end was always sliding in slippery weather
lots of expensive repairs and being a 4 banger it was loud at over 120 km

My current car is a 1996 BMW 328i with 204,000 km and it starts every day, drives like a dream and has one or two rust "spots" on it so far

it only revs at just less than 3000 rpm at 120 km per hour
sure, i've done break jobs, am religious with my oil changes (synthetic only please) done break job, but i've had this car since i bought it in 1999 with 55,000 and don't see myself selling it any time soon

every time i mention to my mechanic that i am thinking about selling it, he tells me i'm crazy and tells me my car is in great shape

and i still get people offering to buy my car from me

it's red with tan leather which is a very unique, and good looking in my opinion, combination


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> SINC,
> you mentioned "European" isn't always better


Michael, I am sure you have a fine BMW and you care for it properly which enhances the life of any car.

There are vehicles not manufactured in Europe that people depend on, enjoy and give good service. Not everyone can afford a Merc or BMW but I have heard horror stories on the service and repair cost of Mercs in particular.

As for your point on Honda, most Japanese cars are very expensive to repair as they age. Best to drive them to a certain point and then trade to avoid those expenses.

To illustrate my point, I bought my daughter a brand new Firefly Turbo in 1988 (Suzuki built). She used it for university and gave it back to me when she bought a new Nissan in 1994. I then gave it to my youngest son, who in turn sold it to his older brother, who sold it to a friend. Last time I saw the car was in 2001 when the friend was visiting here. It had 338,000 km on the clock and had never even had a timing belt and still ran fine although it did burn a bit of oil. Never had a wrench on the engine, but did have the front end struts and steering replaced at about 250,000. A fine performance for a three cylinder and a turbo to boot. I lost track of the friend when he moved to BC, but I often wonder just how many klicks that little car did before it died.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> Agreed, but please, give us a break and don't force feed me that your particular favourite Volvo is the end all. Most of us are smarter than that and can make our own decisions.


SINC so you think Honda, and Toyota are all great huh?

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/honda_transmission.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/brown_honda.html
http://www.injuryboard.com/view.cfm/Topic=9952
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=article&storyid=719
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html (this ones a big one!)
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/nissan_sentra.html
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_safety.html

And the list can go on and on.... SINC anyone can copy and paste links to and from a forum. Having owned both north american (such as lincoln) and european the repair costs, and overall maintenance ran circles around the lincoln. Another myth some people seem to have is that European cars cost more to fix. Thats not necessarily true. Also if the car is reliable you shouldn't have to worry about repair costs. One thing to remember no matter who makes the car there will more then likely be that one year where they just have their quirks.




MACSPECTRUM said:


> SINC,
> you mentioned "European" isn't always better
> 
> I had a Honda Prelude that was practically dying of rust at about 180,000 km
> ...


:love2: :love2: I remember you mentioning the BMW that you had in another thread.. They are a very nice ride!!! You will get many years of it im sure!




SINC said:


> As for your point on Honda, most Japanese cars are very expensive to repair as they age. Best to drive them to a certain point and then trade to avoid those expenses.


Why would you want to do that? I thought they are reliable, and so great to maintain, and such a well engineered car? Hell a mechanic I know still has his 300E Merc from 93. Its over ten years old and the only issues he has had with it was a fuel relay sensor and a windshield washer pump. Talk about a low maintenance cost. Not to mention it only has 528,240 KM. Great on gas too. He drives it down to Florida, Texas, California allot so it racks up its millage easily.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Apple101 said:


> SINC so you think Honda, and Toyota are all great huh?


Geez, give it a rest. Like I said, I am not trying to cram any one brand down members throats. So you like Volvos. Good for you, but I don't happen to share your enthusiasm, nor am I promoting any particular brand. Simple as that. Now can we drop it and get back to the subject at hand?


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> Now can we drop it and get back to the subject at hand?


Sounds good to me. I apologize if I did get out of hand though.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

No apology necessary. You defended your opinion. Nothing wrong with that, just not the right place is all. 

I am a certified car nut and have collected classics for years so I too have my favourites, but that's another story.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> No apology necessary. You defended your opinion. Nothing wrong with that, just not the right place is all.
> 
> I am a certified car nut and have collected classics for years so I too have my favourites, but that's another story.


YOU LOVE CLASSICS TOO?!?!? KICK A**!!!

What are your favorites??

Mine is the 67 Corvette 427 roadster, 1970 Chevelle SS, 1966 Ford Thunderbird, 67 Corvette Coupe, and the P1800. 

Also is there a way to delete old posts because I feel like such an ass....


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I'm going to post a classic car thread so we don't derail this one.
See my reply there.


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## Apple101 (Jan 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> I'm going to post a classic car thread so we don't derail this one.
> See my reply there.


ALRIGHT!!! You the man!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> sure, i've done break jobs, am religious with my oil changes (synthetic only please) done break job,


i am shocked that not only did i mentioned brake jobs twice in one sentence, but misspelled it "brake" twice in one sentence as well

i am getting old


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I remember you mentioning the BMW that you had in another thread.. They are a very nice ride!!! You will get many years of it im sure!


a few weeks ago i was offered a 2001 740i with 180,000 km + 15,000$ ) + my car
the 740 has R255 tires and 20" rims
5 grand in rims and rubber alone
i took a test drive and was very tempted
a 120K$ car in my hands
something i never though i could afford, but alas, with my house issues (you all may have heard) i decided re building my home was more important than a car

but geez a 740 in my grasp....


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> a few weeks ago i was offered a 2001 740i...


Nice car! IIRC, that's the last year of the E38 body style which is much classier than the current Chris Bangle designed body style, IMHO.

These high end cars are bargains used can be bargains used, if you can afford the running costs and can maintain them properly...


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Update...

The Intrepid ever since the incident last week now has no speedometer. The mechanic hooked it up to the computer and everything checks out, however now the speedometer needle is all the way to the other side of the gauge... permanently.

I suppose that was just poor maintenance on my part  . If anyone can tell me how I should maintain my speedometer I'm all ears :lmao: 

Oh yeah... they figure that knock that occurs at highway speeds... that's just the axle (it has some play to it).


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## rondini (Dec 6, 2001)

If you want hybrid cars, then you willneed to check the differnce between the Honda version and the Toyota version. They are not the same. Toyota systems favours the electric motor over the gas motor. 
My wife got an 07 Yaris sedan in June and loves it. We joke that she fills it up once a month, whether it needs it or not. She had been driving a Mecury Mystique that was becoming a maintenance nightmare, considering it's age. 
My 99 Windstar, which I lovingly and expensively maintained, got totalled during icy post Christmas blast to the roads. I have acquired what I think is the most nearly perfect car. (Read a review that said much the same thing as well) That would be an 07 Camry SE. A truly remarkable vehicle. Same platform that the Lexus ES350 is built on, minus the overdone options and over-big engine. There is a hybrid available in the Camry as well. 

I can recommend either vehicle. Corolla a little too boring still, but Yaris is fun and a good city car. Camry good in city and on long highway trips.

You should also know that the "City" Jetta gets its price down by being a real bare bones vehicle. No AC for starters, which might matter to your wife.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Repeat post.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

> Your car is two years old.
> 
> Following the schedule or not, you shouldn't be having problems with your Mazda within two years.


[ I just had to correct this common misconception ]

Completely untrue. A car being new or brand-new does not mean regular maintenance can be ignored; too many people buy a new car and simply assume that because it's new with few kilmoters that the car can be abused and neglected and can continue to go without issues. I've heard many stories of drivers with new cars, such as high-end BMW's, who ignore maintaining them and blame the quality of the car when numerous parts begin to malfunction within 1-2 years of ownership. The higher-end the car, the more maintenance it requires; lower-end vehicles and sub-$30K vehicles require the least amount of maintenance.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

rondini said:


> You should also know that the "City" Jetta gets its price down by being a real bare bones vehicle. No AC for starters, which might matter to your wife.


While true, even a loaded City Jetta is still an awesome deal. If you don't need the power (and it is underpowered), it's a very solid car at a great price.

Lars: thank you! There are far too many people who assume that a car should simply "work", and that the more expensive the car, the less they have to do. Nothing could be further from the truth: expensive cars have highly technical engines, many of which require synthetic oils these days, and need to be well maintained in order to operate properly. There is more to owning a vehicle than putting gas in the tank, and so many people do not realize this.

A word to the wise: many manufacturers reserve the right to deny warranty claims if the problem arises because the maintenance schedule was not followed properly.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Lars said:


> [ I just had to correct this common misconception ]
> 
> Completely untrue. I've heard many stories of drivers with new cars, such as high-end BMW's, who ignore maintaining them and blame the quality of the car when numerous parts begin to malfunction within 1-2 years of ownership.


Just how long have you been a car owner Lars? (Not long from what I've read.)

We have an old expression here in the west:

"Your a$$ is suckin' sloughwater son."

It applies here.


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## rondini (Dec 6, 2001)

I read somewhere that one of the keys to relatively trouble free car ownership is to look in the manual for the maintenance schedule for vehicles in severe service, and follow that rather than the regular schedule. Apparently operating a car in Canada is considered severe service. I never did understand why the regular schedule for some cars has the oil filter being replaced every SECOND oil change. I don't get that at all. Clean oil, clean filter every time for me. Also LOF every 5000m/8000k at a minimum. Another thing that I find odd. People will spend lots of money on the mechanicals of a car, but nothing on the sheet metal. A trip to a body shop to correct surface rust, especially around the bottoms of doors etc. is money well spent. Body shops are not just for accident repairs. Should be part of the maintenance of the car as a whole.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

> A word to the wise: many manufacturers reserve the right to deny warranty claims if the problem arises because the maintenance schedule was not followed properly.


Even if the problem in question has nothing to do with regular maintenance, or lack thereof. In these cases, if the consumer (owner of the vehicle) can't disprove that regular maintenance would have prevented said problem, the decision over the issue is automatically given to the dealer which will subsequently deny warranty service in most cases.


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## Jason H (Feb 1, 2004)

Found these cartoons and had to share!
http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/SingerCars/


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

*Done Deal*

Well... It is a done deal. Just inked a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid. Would have gone with a 2007 but the dealer happened to have a new 2006 on the lot which he had to move so we got a very good deal on it.










http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/hybridtest3.htm


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Good choice. It will give you many years of good service.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

what is the gas mileage on the civic hybrid?

clicked on link and got;



> To cut to the chase, as I know everyone is interested in the mileage, the Civic Hybrid returned a combined 6.1 L/100 km (46 Imperial MPG) over the past 4,900 km. One long trip (1,500 km) returned 4.8 L/100 km (59 Imperial MPG), at speeds ranging between 90-115 km/h.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> what is the gas mileage on the civic hybrid?
> 
> clicked on link and got;


Honda's website claims 4.7 and 4.3 for City and Hwy, however almost every review I came across showed the actual milage to be less. The US site claims EPA city/highway rating of 49/51 mpg


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

EPA standards are known to produce low figures. I think they recently revised them, but I doubt it closed the gap with the "real world". I'm not sure about Canadian labels (unique or just conversions?).


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

Congrats on your new wheels!:clap: I hope it proves as trouble-free as conventional Hondas are known to be.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Congrats on the new wheels and I hope like many Honda's before it offers it's new owners many years of reliable service.

Laterz


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

da_jonesy said:


> Well... It is a done deal. Just inked a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid. Would have gone with a 2007 but the dealer happened to have a new 2006 on the lot which he had to move so we got a very good deal on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I noted this in my morning paper and given your recent purchase, I thought you might be interested in this little tip:

Civic hybrid can't take heavyweights

The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Friday, February 23, 2007

Heavyweights are being advised against sitting in the rear of Honda's 2006 Civic Hybrid until a potential electrical problem is repaired.

Transport Canada says that weight on the rear seat can compress a metal cover and rubber cap that protect an electrical terminal, causing a short circuit in the car's motor assist system.

The short circuit would cause a fuse to blow, which in turn would stall the engine.

Dealers will install a plastic cover over the rubber cap that covers the electrical cable.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

SINC said:


> I noted this in my morning paper and given your recent purchase, I thought you might be interested in this little tip:
> 
> Civic hybrid can't take heavyweights
> 
> ...


Hey Thanks... We pick the car up tomorrow and I will definitely mention this. Thankfully the kidlets are still small.

EDIT... Just emailed our dealer and asked for confirmation that this fix will be taken care of prior to us picking up the car.


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