# iphone secret file tracks you



## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

> Security researchers have discovered that Apple's iPhone keeps track of where you go – and saves every detail of it to a secret file on the device which is then copied to the owner's computer when the two are synchronised.
> 
> The file contains the latitude and longitude of the phone's recorded coordinates along with a timestamp, meaning that anyone who stole the phone or the computer could discover details about the owner's movements using a simple program.
> 
> ...


iPhone keeps record of everywhere you go | Technology | guardian.co.uk


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

The same and extra videos are here if you are interested.
Researchers find evidence iOS 4 records all your travels, again (updated) -- Engadget

Hmm, makes me wonder now, if you send you backup to the cloud like MobileMe, Apple now has your location for the last year. If you jailbreak your phone this info is available to developer of app and cna then copy it. 

What they don't mention is if you turn off Location Services does it still record your location.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Joker Eh said:


> The same and extra videos are here if you are interested.
> Researchers find evidence iOS 4 records all your travels, again (updated) -- Engadget
> 
> Hmm, makes me wonder now, if you send you backup to the cloud like MobileMe, Apple now has your location for the last year. If you jailbreak your phone this info is available to developer of app and cna then copy it.
> ...


Probably does. Turning off location services doesn't turn off your gps chip, just stops providing that data to apps. At least this is my assumption. The chip stays on and actively recalculates it's position so that it doesn't have a monster lag time when you actually want to use it.

As mentioned in the article, you do have an option to encrypt your back file which would make pulling the data more difficult. If you're a drug dealer or other nefarious individual, you might want to use said encryption. Once the authorities have subpoena'd your computer, they will be able to confirm your location at specific times.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

if you are guilty or a criminal it should bother you.. otherwise what ever... it does not bother me...
I figured they track me by my iphone or by my black box in my car or they track me by what I surf or when I purchase travel tickets on line or the 'check in ' feature in facebook.... few more.. by my passport ( it is digital you know ) and by the 100s of money in my pocket ( not like i have any but yes money is digital too ) not to forget when I use my credit cards...
there is so many ways of tracking not sure what the issue is..

so who cares... LOL

I thought it was cool to see where I have been...


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Side question to this.

I wonder how the data would hold up in court? I checked the file from my 3G (no gps) which can only locate itself by wifi signal. The data is relatively accurate where there is plenty of good, strong wifi but is useless where there is very little.

I went snowboarding at the a resort on one side of a mountain and my phone reported that I was miles away, at a resort on the other side of the mountain as this was the best it could figure with limited information. I have never been around to the other side. 

Obviously, with newer phones the gps is there and the data will be more accurate but it only takes a minor glitch in a single digit of the data to misrepresent your location by feet or miles.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Macified said:


> I wonder how the data would hold up in court? I checked the file from my 3G (no gps) which can only locate itself by wifi signal. The data is relatively accurate where there is plenty of good, strong wifi but is useless where there is very little.


3G iphones DO have GPS....perhaps you mean the original iphone? (2G).


Back to the original post. Apple shouldn't be doing this in secret. I have no problem with it being an option that users can turn on or off, individual privacy should be left up to the individual user.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

macintosh doctor said:


> if you are guilty or a criminal it should bother you.. otherwise what ever... it does not bother me...
> I figured they track me by my iphone or by my black box in my car or they track me by what I surf or when I purchase travel tickets on line or the 'check in ' feature in facebook.... few more.. by my passport ( it is digital you know ) and by the 100s of money in my pocket ( not like i have any but yes money is digital too ) not to forget when I use my credit cards...
> there is so many ways of tracking not sure what the issue is..
> 
> ...


All true but your data is not available to the average person or to police. Only available to police if they get a court order. That's the issue. So if I got hold of your backup or your iphone I could know your whereabouts and rob you of all your 100s in your pocket and your credit cards. :lmao:

And second is Apple giving you any discount when they collect this info and use it for ads? Nope.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Joker Eh said:


> All true but your data is not available to the average person or to police. Only available to police if they get a court order. That's the issue. So if I got hold of your backup or your iphone I could know your whereabouts and rob you of all your 100s in your pocket and your credit cards. :lmao:
> 
> And second is Apple giving you any discount when they collect this info and use it for ads? Nope.


Facebook is the worst for keeping your data - private.. they always keep it public and it is up to you not post your personal info like DOB, ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBERs - then select private unless you forget or unaware.. so I still say FACEBOOK is way worse...

also - remember - info is only current if you sync your phone.. so facebook is more current.

but I guess if someone is paranoid.. I have a few rotary phones for sale.. $80 bucks as the value was just increased after this info hits the news.. 

(as for my 100s - wife has beaten you to the punch  )


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

If you follow the links in the story you get to iPhone Tracker, an executable, downloadable OSX program, written to show you the actual data that is being kept.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

rgray said:


> If you follow the links in the story you get to iPhone Tracker, an executable, downloadable OSX program, written to show you the actual data that is being kept.


I thought it was pretty cool to see everywhere I have been.. :clap: save me the time of making a pin cushion map on the wall


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## twolf3232 (Jan 26, 2006)

In Soviet Russia, *you* track iphone secret file!

Wait, that doesn't work.


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

rgray said:


> If you follow the links in the story you get to iPhone Tracker, an executable, downloadable OSX program, written to show you the actual data that is being kept.


Thanks for posting this url.

I have had an iPhone for only a short time, during which time it has not left my house except when in my own pocket, so I know exactly where it has been, and I find it interesting that the data would place the iPhone several times aboard a ferry on a route that I have not travelled on for a few years. It also places the iPhone repeatedly in a nearby town reachable only by a ferry that I have not travelled on in weeks, and certainly not since I bought the iPhone.

The data that iPhones are storing could not stand up in court - not if it is so easy to find examples where it is so wildly inaccurate. That's not to say that the data could not be abused.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

macintosh doctor said:


> if you are guilty or a criminal it should bother you.. otherwise what ever... it does not bother me...
> 
> I thought it was cool to see where I have been...


While I agree it is cool to see where you have been. Such data falling into the wrong hands, whether or not you have something to hide, is an invasion of privacy. You probably noticed several errors in the data - GPS, WiFi location is not 100% accurate. Suppose such data pegged you at a strip club, or a street where prostitutes hang out?

That said, it hasn't been proven Apple or anyone has accessed this data, but it's disconcerting that it is there. I can't think of a single reason why it should be there without the user having a use for it.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Dr T said:


> Thanks for posting this url.
> 
> I have had an iPhone for only a short time, during which time it has not left my house except when in my own pocket, so I know exactly where it has been, and I find it interesting that the data would place the iPhone several times aboard a ferry on a route that I have not travelled on for a few years. It also places the iPhone repeatedly in a nearby town reachable only by a ferry that I have not travelled on in weeks, and certainly not since I bought the iPhone.
> 
> The data that iPhones are storing could not stand up in court - not if it is so easy to find examples where it is so wildly inaccurate. That's not to say that the data could not be abused.


I ran this on my own data and was interested to see it only had a single 'pin' in New Brunswick and a few clustered around my home area - odd considering the phone has been as far west as Tofino, BC, and down into the states. Go figure.....

My iPhone is a 3G that I've had since shortly after they came out.


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

Dr T said:


> ...
> I have had an iPhone for only a short time, during which time it has not left my house except when in my own pocket...


Yikes, I just notices that the iPhone 4 data has only 4 pinpoints on the Island I live on, and 2 of those are in places that are generally inaccessible. The other 2 are places that I might have taken the iPhone to (for the record, just to clear the air about this, neither one is a strip joint or house of prostitution, or for that matter, a public library.). Most notably, NONE of them lies closer than 5 km to where I live (and one is about 20 to 25 km away), and my home is where the iPhone has received almost all of its use these past 8 days...

Looking even more closely, I see two pins on Islands that I have never been to in my life.
And one in Brentwood Bay. But I have not visited pm-r in many many moons...


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

hayesk said:


> While I agree it is cool to see where you have been. Such data falling into the wrong hands, whether or not you have something to hide, is an invasion of privacy. You probably noticed several errors in the data - GPS, WiFi location is not 100% accurate. Suppose such data pegged you at a strip club, or a street where prostitutes hang out?
> 
> That said, it hasn't been proven Apple or anyone has accessed this data, but it's disconcerting that it is there. I can't think of a single reason why it should be there without the user having a use for it.


LOL - you are funny.. as a father of 2 kids plus i have a wife that is more demanding with list of errands and responsibilities in a day than Stephen Harper would have in a week..

having my iphone say I was at a strip club or seedy street location is comical, as everyone knows I have limited time to even stop to get a pee break :lmao: So if we can conclude that the locations/spots are not accurate than we are all making mole hills of the matter.
 - once again the conspiracy theorist at taken the matter to height of global proportions. I stand by my original comment.. this is only the icing on the cake of ways you can be tracked not a big deal... ( that said if my iphone says I was at a strip club - do they take credit card? if so that would confirm i was there.. as carrying a pocket full of lonnies would rip holes in my pants.. )


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2011)

More info on this: willclarke.net » Apple is not “recording your moves”

I'd be more worried about this personally: ACLU: Michigan cops stealing drivers' phone data | Crave - CNET


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Dr T said:


> I find it interesting that the data would place the iPhone several times aboard a ferry on a route that I have not travelled on for a few years. It also places the iPhone repeatedly in a nearby town reachable only by a ferry that I have not travelled on in weeks, and certainly not since I bought the iPhone.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See, Mrs. T, he wuz nowhere near that place.


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## Paul82 (Sep 19, 2007)

Personally I'm not worried in the least about it, as mentioned if you aren't jailbreaking the file is not easily accesssible, from checking out my data a couple things were pretty apparent... ( which seem to have been confirmed from what I've read online) 1. This has only started since iOS 4, so June of 2010, and two it is NOT location services data (gps and wifi) that is being logged but cell tower data, this is the reason that it is so inaccurate, as cell town data really can't pinpoint you, but it can provide a fairly accurate fix in urban locations where they are close together, in more rural areas not so much as the tower you are connected to will likely be several km away...


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2011)

I think it was happening before 2010, I just looked at mine and it had history going back to 2008. I remember reading about this quite a while ago but now that someone has figured out how to find and parse the data it's made a new resurgence into the public eye.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

mguertin said:


> I think it was happening before 2010, I just looked at mine and it had history going back to 2008. I remember reading about this quite a while ago but now that someone has figured out how to find and parse the data it's made a new resurgence into the public eye.


It shouldn't as I think that file started with iOS4 release.


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## MomentsofSanity (Jul 9, 2008)

And now it's being explained as a "bug". Not sure I buy that one...

AppleInsider | iOS location tracking file likely a bug, Apple could address issue with next udpate


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*android is tracking you too, and european privacy laws*



> iPhones and Android phones building vast databases for Google and Apple
> Italy, France and Germany to investigate smartphone tracking software amid privacy concerns





> Apple and Google are using smartphones running their software to build gigantic databases for location-based services, according to new research following the Guardian's revelations that iPhones and devices running Android collect location data about owners' movements.
> 
> iPhones and Android smartphones swap data – which does not contain information directly identifying the user or the phone – back and forth with their respective companies if the user agrees to use "location services".
> 
> ...





> However, even if users disable location services, the iPhone and Android phones are believed to continue storing locations of cell towers and wi-fi networks in what is known as a "neighbour list".
> 
> Google's list is limited to the most recent 50 cell masts and 200 wi-fi networks, while Apple's list is retained for up to a year. Sources close to Apple have suggested the long-term retention may be an error which it will correct in a future software update.





> In Germany, the Bavarian Agency for the Supervision of Data Protection said it would examine whether and why Apple's devices were capturing the information, and that it had asked Apple for more information.
> 
> "If it is true that this information is being collected... without the approval and knowledge of the users, then it is definitely a violation of German privacy law," Thomas Kranig, the agency's director, told the New York Times.
> 
> Italy and France are expected to do the same. France's data protection authority suggested that a major source of concern would be over whether Apple transferred any of the data to any commercial partners. "If the information is marketed without the knowledge of the consumer, it is much more serious," Yann Padova of France's CNIL said.


iPhones and Android phones building vast databases for Google and Apple | Technology | The Guardian


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

*iPhone data is wildly inaccurate*



Macfury said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> See, Mrs. T, he wuz nowhere near that place.


Since I have had this iPhone for just a short time, there is relatively little data. Besides the fact that it does not include any record of the 10 or so phone calls between myself and Mrs T, which we made just ti test the thing out, I notice a very curious pattern in the data: the pinpoints fall in straight east-west lines. Only 2 or 3 points are anywhere near places that I actually had the iPhone. These straight lines are for data in both rural and urban areas.

One of the attached shows the town of Duncan, which lies a good 30km away from anywhere I have had the iPhone. Another shows Victoria, with pints in straight lines -places I was never in, like on a cruise ship, or in Esquimalt, or swimming with the iPhone off Dallas Road. One ma is centred on my own property, where the phone has spent most its time, and where I have made by far the most use of it.


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## Theseus (Jun 6, 2006)

The dots were placed on a widely spaced grid by the program's authors - the actual data is much more precise.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

i think it's a conspiracy by Apple in conjunction with the US military to get a free iPhone in the hands of Osama Bin Laden so they can finally track him down.

if he's still alive....



on a serious note, I'm not surprised that this has happened.


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## boukman2 (Apr 6, 2009)

*npr analizes phone data*

npr has a good article analyzing the data on the author's iphone.



> Most of the focus has been on a table called 'CellLocation' within a database named consolidated.db. While some tables were empty, other tables also contained location data. This includes the WiFiLocation table and CellLocationLocal. WiFILocation is worth noting because in my case, it had the most data (111,751 rows). This has likely garnered less attention because the location data is likely GeoIP based, which means they are less precise. Entries in the WifiLocation table that were from my home were widely inaccurate, while an entry from the Las Vegas Convention center was spot on. A final note on the WiFILocation table is that it captures MAC addresses, not IP addresses.


Sifting Through An iPhone's Geo Data, Row By Row : All Tech Considered : NPR


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

MomentsofSanity said:


> And now it's being explained as a "bug". Not sure I buy that one...


It could be. It could simply be a location cache that's meant to only store that last few readings and simply isn't clearing out the old ones.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

At least no one can access the information (not that I care if people know where I've been), but at least it's not sending the data to Google every couple seconds like that Android phones.... still wouldn't really care, but whatever.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Elric said:


> At least no one can access the information


No one can access the information??? 



rgray said:


> If you follow the links in the story you get to iPhone Tracker, an executable, downloadable OSX program, written to show you the actual data that is being kept.


In fact anyone who can get a copy of the backup and a copy of iPhone Tracker can read your data.... It doesn't seem that the data is all that accurate based on some posts above but that doesn't stop it from being read by pretty much anyone who wants to who can get at it.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> if you are guilty or a criminal it should bother you.. otherwise what ever... it does not bother me...
> I figured they track me by my iphone or by my black box in my car or they track me by what I surf or when I purchase travel tickets on line or the 'check in ' feature in facebook.... few more.. by my passport ( it is digital you know ) and by the 100s of money in my pocket ( not like i have any but yes money is digital too ) not to forget when I use my credit cards...
> there is so many ways of tracking not sure what the issue is..
> 
> ...


What a load of crap. Imagine the poor saps who happen to be in the vicinity of the next WTC or Murough building. Convicted simply because their iPhones said they were there. tptptptp


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> What a load of crap. Imagine the poor saps who happen to be in the vicinity of the next WTC or Murough building. Convicted simply because their iPhones said they were there. tptptptp


Now THAT's a load of crap lol


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

rgray said:


> No one can access the information???
> 
> 
> 
> In fact anyone who can get a copy of the backup and a copy of iPhone Tracker can read your data.... It doesn't seem that the data is all that accurate based on some posts above but that doesn't stop it from being read by pretty much anyone who wants to who can get at it.


LOL
Well yes, they'd have to get my computer, true.

If you want to know where I've been, I'll email you my file 

If you want to know where I am, you can request friendship on Google Latitude  (Yeah, I authorized it EEK!)


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

Theseus said:


> The dots were placed on a widely spaced grid by the program's authors - the actual data is much more precise.


It's not the data, you say, just the programmer's authors' interpretation of it. That would explain why so many points in my iPhone's data are at last 25 km from where the iPhone has ever been, and absolutely none are any closer to where it has resided for the longest and been used the most?


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

In this day and age, if any of you actually believe that your lives are completely private, you are in for a rude awakening. 

My credit card company has called me on a couple of occasions to verify charges, once when I travelled up to my parents place in Elliot Lake for a weekend, a trip that I had done many times before. The difference this trip? I had rented a van for the weekend, and not knowing it's gas consumption and knowing that one of the two gas stations in Elliot Lake was closed for renovations, I made a couple of extra stops for gas on the drive up, not letting the tank get below 1/2 full. 

I seem to recall seeing a billboard across from the Apple Store in San Francisco, near the Moscone Center, that said something like "you've been photographed, xx number of times in the past 10 minutes, don't you want to look your best?" in reference to the incredibly high number of security cameras that a person comes in contact with on a simple 10-15 minute walk in a downtown area. 

During the recent controversies with the large group lottery wins, it came out that the Ontario Lottery Corporation can tell most buyers purchasing habits and uses them to help establish true identity of the purchaser of a winning ticket. 

Anyone that uses any form of loyalty: Aeroplan, Airmiles, etc. leaves an electronic trail. 

Our laptops probably leave an electronic trail of networks that they have used. 

Those of you that have GM vehicles with OnStar in them, wouldn't you think that there is probably some form of tracking that is stored either in the vehicle itself or on the OnStar servers?

As others have pointed out, the information that is found in the file on the iPhone devices is not 100% accurate. 

And if someone did get the information, what are they going to do with it? To me it is a risk reward. The risks involved with having that information stored are outweighed by the advantages that I have with the location services that are in the applications that use it.

And I've got a more embarrassing thing... my golf GPS app allows me to store where I hit shots from and how far the shot went. So if someone were to get that data, they'd see that while I hit two really nice shots on the 17th hole last Wednesday (in Punta Cana where it was warm), it took me 4 chips to get on the green, and then I 3 putted for a horrible 9 that destroyed an otherwise nice round of golf!


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Anyone see Steve's response to all of this?

One MacRumors reader emailed Apple CEO Steve Jobs asking for clarification on the issue while hinting about a switch to Android if adequate explanations are not forthcoming. Jobs reportedly responded, turning the tables by claiming both that Apple does not track users and that Android does while referring to the information about iOS shared in the media as "false".

*Q:* Steve,

Could you please explain the necessity of the passive location-tracking tool embedded in my iPhone? It's kind of unnerving knowing that my exact location is being recorded at all times. Maybe you could shed some light on this for me before I switch to a Droid. They don't track me.

*A:* Oh yes they do. We don't track anyone. The info circulating around is false. 

Sent from my iPhone

Well.... there you have it. :lmao:


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

ehMax said:


> Anyone see Steve's response to all of this?
> 
> One MacRumors reader emailed Apple CEO Steve Jobs asking for clarification on the issue while hinting about a switch to Android if adequate explanations are not forthcoming. Jobs reportedly responded, turning the tables by claiming both that Apple does not track users and that Android does while referring to the information about iOS shared in the media as "false".
> 
> ...


He's right though, Android phones send that info to Google every fews seconds, the info on your iPhone gets sent nowhere (but yes, it SHOULD be encrypted)

Paranoid people shouldn't have Cell Phones to begin with, ALL cell phones can be "located" at any time by the right people.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

*A: Oh yes they do. We don't track anyone. The info circulating around is false.*

Yeah, I believe this......


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

rgray said:


> No one can access the information???
> 
> 
> 
> In fact anyone who can get a copy of the backup and a copy of iPhone Tracker can read your data.... It doesn't seem that the data is all that accurate based on some posts above but that doesn't stop it from being read by pretty much anyone who wants to who can get at it.


If they can get that, they can get any file on your computer. There's likely data on your computer that is a lot more sensitive than where you've been.

This is another tempest in a teapot. A non-issue.


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## hbp (Apr 18, 2007)

I actually like it (assuming nobody can access it unless they have physical access to my computer).

Kinda neat checking up where I've been (especially after traveling).


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Offical response from Apple

Apple - Press Info - Apple Q&A on Location Data

I am happy with their response.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

hayesk said:


> If they can get that, they can get any file on your computer. There's likely data on your computer that is a lot more sensitive than where you've been.
> 
> This is another tempest in a teapot. A non-issue.


No kidding, if they are in my house taking info from my computer, where I have been would be the very least of my worries.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

hayesk said:


> If they can get that, they can get any file on your computer. There's likely data on your computer that is a lot more sensitive than where you've been.
> 
> This is another tempest in a teapot. A non-issue.


It's not just about someone breaking into your house and getting at that file. What about a spouse or a room mate or a sibling. What an employer tracking a work phone? Just because they can get at your computer shouldn't mean that they can use this file to track your (approximate) whereabouts. Another situation that someone on a podcast pointed out is what about abusive relationships? That's the keys to a whole bunch of nastiness again there. What if you're looking for a new job and your work decides to track where you've been going during off hours or on your own time and it adversely affects your job? And not that I condone this, but what about the preverbal "cheating spouse"?

This is not a tempest in a teapot, this is a serious issue. It's not as bad as some have made it out to be but it's most assuredly a very large oversight on Apple's part to not encrypt this and most likely because of that a pretty serious invasion of privacy. If it was encrypted even with something simple it would be a moot point, but the fact is that it's not encrypted and there's now easily attainable software that does all the hard work for you. For me personally it's not a huge deal, for others it could be a very very serious issue.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

mguertin said:


> It's not just about someone breaking into your house and getting at that file. What about a spouse or a room mate or a sibling. What an employer tracking a work phone? Just because they can get at your computer shouldn't mean that they can use this file to track your (approximate) whereabouts. Another situation that someone on a podcast pointed out is what about abusive relationships? That's the keys to a whole bunch of nastiness again there. What if you're looking for a new job and your work decides to track where you've been going during off hours or on your own time and it adversely affects your job? And not that I condone this, but what about the preverbal "cheating spouse"?
> 
> This is not a tempest in a teapot, this is a serious issue. It's not as bad as some have made it out to be but it's most assuredly a very large oversight on Apple's part to not encrypt this and most likely because of that a pretty serious invasion of privacy. If it was encrypted even with something simple it would be a moot point, but the fact is that it's not encrypted and there's now easily attainable software that does all the hard work for you. For me personally it's not a huge deal, for others it could be a very very serious issue.


In any (all?) of those cases, turn location off entirely. Or *gasp! pass on any phone with a GPS built in...


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Everyone read the info from the link I provided and also the Mayor created a new thread about it. Apple is not tracking anyone.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

Joker Eh said:


> Everyone read the info from the link I provided and also the Mayor created a new thread about it. Apple is not tracking anyone.


we already knew that from the original discovery, the info is just on your computer (and they're fixing it to only 7 days)


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Elric said:


> In any (all?) of those cases, turn location off entirely. Or *gasp! pass on any phone with a GPS built in...


Turning off location services doesn't remove this file (yet) but supposedly will in a "future update" to iOS. Even if you turn off the services now the phone will have your entire location history stored on it, not to mention on your computer in every phone backup. In that regard the damage is already done unless you are going to manually trash every single backup of your phone, every single copy of your own personal computer backups, etc.

Secondly, why should anyone have to disable features or buy inferior hardware to protect their right to privacy??!? I really really don't understand these arguments. Should we just throw away all of our other constitutional rights while we're at it?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Elric said:


> we already knew that from the original discovery, the info is just on your computer (and they're fixing it to only 7 days)


They are only going to "fix" the fact that there will be no new copies of the data transferred to your computer. All of the existing data in all the backups, your computer backups, etc, will all still be there until/unless you manually delete all of your backups. As I said above, the damage is done, this is just damage control and future proofing. They also are not addressing the bigger issues of why this data is not encrypted until the next major iOS release.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

mguertin said:


> They are only going to "fix" the fact that there will be no new copies of the data transferred to your computer. All of the existing data in all the backups, your computer backups, etc, will all still be there until/unless you manually delete all of your backups. As I said above, the damage is done, this is just damage control and future proofing. They also are not addressing the bigger issues of why this data is not encrypted until the next major iOS release.


+1

This is what we have come to expect from M$, which should clearly show just how bad the whole idea is.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

They are not tracking your location is not about data on your phone, home computer or where ever. Its not your location its the location of the cell towers to which you are connecting.



> 3. Why is my iPhone logging my location?
> The iPhone is not logging your location. Rather, it’s maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location, some of which may be located more than one hundred miles away from your iPhone, to help your iPhone rapidly and accurately calculate its location when requested. Calculating a phone’s location using just GPS satellite data can take up to several minutes. iPhone can reduce this time to just a few seconds by using Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data to quickly find GPS satellites, and even triangulate its location using just Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data when GPS is not available (such as indoors or in basements). These calculations are performed live on the iPhone using a crowd-sourced database of Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data that is generated by tens of millions of iPhones sending the geo-tagged locations of nearby Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers in an anonymous and encrypted form to Apple.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Interesting that Apple said they weren't and wouldn't be tracking anyone yet at the same time were collecting data for future traffic systems.

Are they or aren't they?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Joker Eh said:


> They are not tracking your location is not about data on your phone, home computer or where ever. Its not your location its the location of the cell towers to which you are connecting.


By tracking the cell towers you are connected to it's triangulating where you were. The only difference is the intent, the end result is the same.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

mguertin said:


> By tracking the cell towers you are connected to it's triangulating where you were. The only difference is the intent, the end result is the same.


I don't think so because as was evident by images and videos of people loading the location db, it showed dots where they were not even close to and no where near.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

mguertin said:


> Secondly, why should anyone have to disable features or buy inferior hardware to protect their right to privacy??!? I really really don't understand these arguments. Should we just throw away all of our other constitutional rights while we're at it?


You aren't sacrificing anything, either you want location and GPS in your phone or you don't, it's 100% your choice.

And considering what the file is actually FOR, this whole argument is ridiculous. If someone steals your car (assuming you have GPS), they will also know where you have been.

Really, if this is such a big problem for you, you have SOOOOOOO many other choices (I'm sorry that there are no cool phones that don't track your location, but at least it isn't transmitting your location like Google's phones, right?)

You know your options, you have the choice.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Elric said:


> You aren't sacrificing anything, either you want location and GPS in your phone or you don't, it's 100% your choice.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Having a piece of electronics that provides you GPS services and having a piece of electronics that tracks and saves the entire history of every single cell tower that you're device has registered with for it's entire history and then both storing them and copying them to your computer in an easily accessible un-encrypted format are *completely* different things! P.S. This has nothing to do with the actual GPS services, this is all about Apple's very specific implementation of their "location services". This issue is a direct result of Apple using the cell towers your phone has registered with to triangulate your position and then keeping a record of every single cell tower location your device has registered with in it's lifetime. This is not a result of the iPhone using actual GPS satellites to determine your position or provide you with directional info.



> And considering what the file is actually FOR, this whole argument is ridiculous. If someone steals your car (assuming you have GPS), they will also know where you have been.


So you're saying if someone steals my car they can somehow use my GPS to show everywhere I've been for the last 3+ years like the iPhone data on my computer does? They might be able to see _some_ of my final destinations by looking at the recently found history but there's a big difference. They won't have time and date stamps for the entire journey along the way.



> Really, if this is such a big problem for you, you have SOOOOOOO many other choices (I'm sorry that there are no cool phones that don't track your location, but at least it isn't transmitting your location like Google's phones, right?)
> 
> You know your options, you have the choice.


I am happy that it's not transmitting the info to Apple (or anyone), I will agree on that front 

I stated that it's not a specific problem for me, but it's a serious problem. They are dealing with it, which is good, but it's still an issue for me on how this slipped through the cracks in the first place.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

mguertin, what is the problem or security issue with storing the location of the cell towers to which you used? I know its not a problem with you but why you think its a serious issue.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Joker Eh said:


> mguertin, what is the problem or security issue with storing the location of the cell towers to which you used? I know its not a problem with you but why you think its a serious issue.


The problem is not that they store it, it's that it's completely un-encrypted and being copied to your computer where anyone with access to this data can track your (approximate) locations, right down to including time and date stamps.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

mguertin said:


> The problem is not that they store it, it's that it's completely un-encrypted and being copied to your computer where anyone with access to this data can track your (approximate) locations, right down to including time and date stamps.


Perhaps I'm still missing something here... maybe your computer isn't password protected? Because I still don't really see why you are so worried.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Elric said:


> Perhaps I'm still missing something here... maybe your computer isn't password protected? Because I still don't really see why you are so worried.


This goes beyond "my" computer. What about work computers and work phones? Workplaces literally "own" all of the data on the computer you use at work, including any potential "private" or "personal" data you might have on said computer(s). Is it not a privacy violation on that front, that your work now owns files that track your every movement for the duration of the time that you had the device power up and in your possession? 

I'll give you a hint ... if your work tried to require you to give them this data as part of your job description or for that matter even ask you about it they would be in serious legal trouble .. but thanks to Apple's bug they now have this data for every single person in their employ that synced an iPhone with one of their computers. Because of the way it was collected they would technically be able to look at all of that data and do what they please with it. I'm not saying that they will do this, but they now can do so without any legal barrier or protection for you.

Also take this into consideration ... depending on what type of work you do and what type of work your company does, the company may be required by law to retain this information for a duration of time as well (up to multiple years in fact). So not only does it violate your privacy by being on your work computer in the first place, but at that point the privacy violation is non-correctable in that they are not even allowed to delete this data from their backups and could be retained for years.

Let's also put this into a law enforcement context. Legally this type of data is protected but can be subpoenaed depending on what it's needed for, but in those cases there has to be just cause, it has to be signed off on by a judge, etc. But again, thanks to this bug this data is readily available to anyone that can get access to your data without any of the legal safeguards in place that are our right as part of our constitution.

Does this help to clarify why I feel this is an issue?


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

mguertin said:


> This goes beyond "my" computer. What about work computers and work phones? Workplaces literally "own" all of the data on the computer you use at work, including any potential "private" or "personal" data you might have on said computer(s). Is it not a privacy violation on that front, that your work now owns files that track your every movement for the duration of the time that you had the device power up and in your possession?
> 
> I'll give you a hint ... if your work tried to require you to give them this data as part of your job description or for that matter even ask you about it they would be in serious legal trouble .. but thanks to Apple's bug they now have this data for every single person in their employ that synced an iPhone with one of their computers. Because of the way it was collected they would technically be able to look at all of that data and do what they please with it. I'm not saying that they will do this, but they now can do so without any legal barrier or protection for you.
> 
> ...


Not really, common sense would dictate to NOT sync your personal phone at work, and if it's a work related phone then... it's their data to begin with.

I think you are making this way more complicated than it really is.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> Is it not a privacy violation on that front, that your work now owns files that track your every movement for the duration of the time that you had the device power up and in your possession?


if you dont want work to know where you are going with your work supplied cell phone that you sync with a work-supplied computer, get your own phone and use it on your own time. 

if its not a work supplied cell phone don't sync it with a work supplied computer. 

if you *have* to have a work supplied phone for your job and privacy is that important to you, get a non-smartphone

if you *have* to have a smart phone for your current job *and* privacy is that important to you then maybe you need to think about getting another job.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

broad said:


> if you dont want work to know where you are going with your work supplied cell phone that you sync with a work-supplied computer, get your own phone and use it on your own time.
> 
> if its not a work supplied cell phone don't sync it with a work supplied computer.
> 
> ...


That's my point exactly.
And for gods sake PASSWORD PROTECT YOUR COMPUTER!


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

broad said:


> if you dont want work to know where you are going with your work supplied cell phone that you sync with a work-supplied computer, get your own phone and use it on your own time.
> 
> if its not a work supplied cell phone don't sync it with a work supplied computer.
> 
> ...


Ok so if you have a work supplied smart phone then you should happily sign away your constitutional rights to privacy and due process ... and if you have to keep your phone on because you're on call you waive all your rights to privacy and due process ... whatever guys. If you don't think it's a big deal at least respect the feelings that others might value their privacy and the rights afforded to us by our constitution and due process.

I'll walk away from this whole discussion right now since you guys seem to have answers for everything as to why it's not a privacy violation even though I've given you irrefutable real world explanations as to exactly why it is.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Elric said:


> That's my point exactly.
> And for gods sake PASSWORD PROTECT YOUR COMPUTER!


Have you actually READ anything that I posted? Password protecting "your" computer has nothing to do with it. For god's sake Apple ENCRYPT YOUR SENSITIVE DATA AND STOP COPYING IT TO EVERYONE'S COMPUTERS.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

broad said:


> f you *have* to have a smart phone for your current job *and* privacy is that important to you then maybe you need to think about getting another job.


P.S. When they amend our constitution with those caveats as to how and why we have no more rights to privacy that might be valid advice, until then it's a privacy violation.


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## jenb (Jun 11, 2009)

Holy tempest in a teapot!


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> Ok so if you have a work supplied smart phone then you should happily sign away your constitutional rights to privacy and due process ... and if you have to keep your phone on because you're on call you waive all your rights to privacy and due process ...


like i said, if thats a problem for you find another job. there are 8374736476 careers and jobs out there, if this is an issue for you then DO SOMETHING ELSE. no one is forcing you to take or keep a job where you are required to use a smartphone that "tracks your movements"


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

I'm curious as to why people even _care_ what phone tracks you beyond the "it's a violation of our privacy" argument. Is there a real concern here? If people know I've been to the GTA and south-western Ontario this past month, good for them.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

and the information is where was the cell tower you were connected to, not which tower you are connected to right now.

Second you can encrypt you backup. The option is there.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

mguertin said:


> Have you actually READ anything that I posted? Password protecting "your" computer has nothing to do with it. For god's sake Apple ENCRYPT YOUR SENSITIVE DATA AND STOP COPYING IT TO EVERYONE'S COMPUTERS.


Have you READ any of the replies? We're trying to help you realize, a/ your information is incorrect, and b/ you are responsible for your own data

It has EVERYTHING to do with "your" computer being protected. You aren't being "tracked" and if your work requires you to have a smartphone that DOES track you, leave it on your desk at work and forward the calls to a non-smartphone (which ironically still CAN be tracked) or a home phone (which stays in the same location and also CAN be traced). 

You have an unbelievable amount of options out there if you are that paranoid that you think anyone cares which cell towers and wifi hotspots you use. (this statement is false if someone REALLY does want to find you by court order)

ENCRYPT "YOUR" DATA lol


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2011)

Elric said:


> Have you READ any of the replies? We're trying to help you realize, a/ your information is incorrect, and b/ you are responsible for your own data


Ok. Please point out to me exactly where my examples are incorrect then. Also point out to me exactly how I'm responsible for the data collected, by law, on work computers.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

mguertin said:


> Ok. Please point out to me exactly where my examples are incorrect then. Also point out to me exactly how I'm responsible for the data collected, by law, on work computers.


So no, you don't actually read the replies.

The data collected _should_ only be on _your_ home computer, so encrypt your backups AND password protect your user account on your computer.

Work computer? Delete the backup and never sync there.

This is getting rather redundant now, if you STILL don't get it, I can no longer help you, I'm sorry.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2011)

Elric said:


> So no, you don't actually read the replies.
> 
> The data collected _should_ only be on _your_ home computer, so encrypt your backups AND password protect your user account on your computer.
> 
> ...


I read all your replies, thanks, but this still doesn't point out where I'm actually wrong about anything. If you feel that I should only allow a phone to sync on my computer and that I should encrypt my data it's just proving my point that the data should have been encrypted int he first place and that it is truly a valid concern. The onus here should be on apple -- not the end user. This reply also does nothing to address the concerns of work supplied phones on work computers and the privacy issues that come along with that arrangement (and sorry, refusing to use a smart phone for work doesn't "solve" the issue -- it just avoids it and sadly not all of us have that kind of option of either refusing to use a smart phone or just quitting our jobs and finding a new one because Apple goofed up).

Let's just continue to ignore each other and call it a day on this one  We obviously have very different viewpoints about what is a privacy concern and all you're pushing in the direction of quitting jobs and limiting your computer and/or phone usage doesn't solve the root of the issue here (which is the fact that it should have both been encrypted by Apple AND not copied to a computer during backups) no matter how many times you say the same thing over and over again.


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

*Is Big Brother reading this?*



mguertin said:


> I... This reply also does nothing to address the concerns of work supplied phones on work computers and the privacy issues that come along with that arrangement (and sorry, refusing to use a smart phone for work doesn't "solve" the issue -- it just avoids it and sadly not all of us have that kind of option of either refusing to use a smart phone or just quitting our jobs and finding a new one because Apple goofed up)......



I am getting tired of reading this over and over. I hope to learn something new, but it's the same stuff over and over.


Your work situation is between you and your employer. If you do not like the arrangement, then either (a) take it to your union or (b) ask for another role with your employer that does not invade your privacy in some way that only you seem to understand, or (c) quit.

Apple is not your union, nor does Apple negotiate your individual job situation, nor does Apple force you to work in a job that makes you paranoid.

--sent from my iPhone in a secret location somewhere within a 700 to 800 sq km area centred more or less on Duncan, BC


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## jhuynh (Mar 21, 2011)

mguertin said:


> I read all your replies, thanks, but this still doesn't point out where I'm actually wrong about anything. If you feel that I should only allow a phone to sync on my computer and that I should encrypt my data it's just proving my point that the data should have been encrypted int he first place and that it is truly a valid concern. The onus here should be on apple -- not the end user. This reply also does nothing to address the concerns of work supplied phones on work computers and the privacy issues that come along with that arrangement (and sorry, refusing to use a smart phone for work doesn't "solve" the issue -- it just avoids it and sadly not all of us have that kind of option of either refusing to use a smart phone or just quitting our jobs and finding a new one because Apple goofed up).
> 
> Let's just continue to ignore each other and call it a day on this one  We obviously have very different viewpoints about what is a privacy concern and all you're pushing in the direction of quitting jobs and limiting your computer and/or phone usage doesn't solve the root of the issue here (which is the fact that it should have both been encrypted by Apple AND not copied to a computer during backups) no matter how many times you say the same thing over and over again.


There is no expectation of privacy for any work provided equipment and I'm sure one of the documents you signed when they hired you says this but you probably didn't read it.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

some people need a reality check in a big way.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2011)

jhuynh said:


> There is no expectation of privacy for any work provided equipment and I'm sure one of the documents you signed when they hired you says this but you probably didn't read it.


That's exactly the point that I'm trying to make, and that because of Apple's screw up they have handed all kinds of tracking information to employers.



broad said:


> some people need a reality check in a big way.


I couldn't agree more, although I'm sure you're thinking that it's me that needs the reality check and I wholeheartedly disagree. 

Why don't you all post your tracking files from your iPhones here for everyone to download if no one thinks it's a privacy violation? If no one is willing to do this then I'll have to assume that you do agree that it's a privacy violation.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2011)

Dr T said:


> I am getting tired of reading this over and over. I hope to learn something new, but it's the same stuff over and over.
> 
> Your work situation is between you and your employer. If you do not like the arrangement, then either (a) take it to your union or (b) ask for another role with your employer that does not invade your privacy in some way that only you seem to understand, or (c) quit.
> 
> ...


As am i tired of reading the same thing over and over defending a position but refusing to actually rebut any of the valid points I'm making ... is that not the point of debating things in the first place? 

Also if it wasn't a privacy violation in the first place, then why would Apple bother to both post an official statement regarding it and state exactly how they are going to fix the issue? If it was not a problem, as several posters are avidly insisting, but not backing up any of their claims, they why didn't Apple post what they are posting and say "encrypt your backups" and "if you don't like it with your work hardware just quit your job" ??


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

As much as I hate to say this.....mguertin is correct.


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