# Why is Shawn King'S show listed as a Podcast?



## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

*Why is Shawn King's show listed as a Podcast?*

Can someone please tell me how Shawn King's show _Your Mac Life_ can be listed as a Podcast on the iTunes Music Store when it can't be copied onto an iPod?

I wanted to listen to it, so I subscribed, downloaded the latest episode, and then of course I tried to copy it onto my Shuffle.... impossible.  

Is it just a stream? How can a streamed file be listed as a Podcast?  

Just wondering what you all thought. Should it be removed from the list of Podcasts on the iTMS?


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

Well, the Itunes show is really not the "your Mac Life" show that is two and half hours long. However, still worth a listen and I do this on my Ipod all the time in the car.

I listen to Your MacLife show every Saturday morning from my deck on my Ipod. I download the content from Audible.com...IMAO it is the only podcast I am willing to pay for. The guys (and girls) do a great job. What you get on the web site is the streaming feed. If you somehow captured this feed you could put it on your Ipod, however, I would suggest you step up and pay for the audible feed or listen to it live when you get video as well. You will not be disapointed. 

A happy listener....


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

I was never in favour of Shawn's move to Audible. I used to listen to the show religiously, but now I just tune in occasionally. I have found other free podcasts to listen to, but I find it funny that Shawn and Jay now have a podcast, Trashtalk, on itunes. What's funny about this is that until itunes started supporting podcasts, Shawn stated he would not do a regular podcast because he didnt have enough interesting stuff to fill a show with. With YML already locked into Audible, it seems Shawn had a change of heart.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

Shawn will pipe in any moment, as he is a member of ehMac.

He has a Podcast called - Trash Talk - which is a podcast that is downloadable.

I have also seen him post a stream of 'Your Mac Life' this is not downloadable because it is a stream directly from the 'Your Mac Life' servers. And thus you can not take it on your iPod.

You will need to subscibe to audible.com to get the 'Your Mac Life' show on your iPod.

Shawn King's 'Your Mac Life' is worth purchasing at audible. IMHO
But this podcasting thing is a tough market, especially for a show like 'Your Mac Life'

http://www.yourmaclife.com/

Shawn King is Canadian! And his American wife has a sexy voice.


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

Please understand that my issue is the somehow his streaming show has wound up on iTMS as a Podcast.

I was unaware that he was selling previous shows or had a legitimate Podcast.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

Alirio said:


> Please understand that my issue is the somehow his streaming show has wopund up on iTMS as a Podcast.


Yeah, kinda like a fakecast... I see your point.

hmmmmm.

I don't care as long as Shawn King refers to ehMac.ca on his next show.

Hello, Shawn, thats ehMac.ca - ehMac dot ca - yes that's it ehMac.ca !


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

*A workaround*

*Try this to get YML to your iPod: (It's quite easy)*

1. Stream YML on your windows computer (_I've not tried on Mac_)
2. Open Volume Control (My Programs>Acessories>Entertainment>Volume Control)
3. Click Options
4. Select Properties
5. Select recording
6. Make sure Record Mixer (or similar is checked)
7. Click OK
8.The Recording Control Menu is now showing
9. Select Record Mixer


10. Open Roxio SoundStream (I have Version 5)
11. Click Spin Doctor
12. After adjusting (you may have to read help, or you can e-mail me), hit the record button. 
13. Set Spin Doctor to stop after 2,5 hr (or whatever length you desire)
14. Go have fun, away from computer.
15. File will be waiting for you, ready to transfer to iPod.

I'm sure there are workarounds for Mac, as I know of software that can reccord any audio playing on your Mac.


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

Heart said:


> Yeah, kinda like a fakecast... I see your point.
> 
> hmmmmm.
> 
> ...


 Please define for me what a " legitimate podcast" is. I seem to be missing the point of this discussion


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

You listen to YML on a Windows PC.....I really am missing something here.....It is a show about Macs!!!!


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

pent675 said:


> Please define for me what a " legitimate podcast" is. I seem to be missing the point of this discussion


What I mean by a legitimate podcast is that once subscribed, you can DOWNLOAD new episodes onto your computer and then copy them to your MP3 player of choice.

I went on to iTMS and found that Shawn King's Your Mac Life was listed as a Podcast. I subscribed. When I "downloaded" an episode it actually downloaded a file that allowed me to access a stream of the show. The stream aspect obliges me to listen to the episode on my computer because it requires an Internet connection. I cannot listen to the episode on an MP3 player like an iPod.

If you can't listen to it on an iPod, is it a Podcast?

That is, I believe, the point of the discussion.


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

pent675 said:


> You listen to YML on a Windows PC.....I really am missing something here.....It is a show about Macs!!!!


Like others in this forum, I am very comfortable with Win. I use my PB much more, though. I listen to YML on either platform, I just use Win to convert the stream to mp3 for listening on the road, or wherever...


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Alirio said:


> Can someone please tell me how Shawn King's show _Your Mac Life_ can be listed as a Podcast on the iTunes Music Store when it can't be copied onto an iPod?


Is there a reaosn you didn't ask me directly? 


> Is it just a stream?


Yes - that particular version is *just* the streamed file.


> How can a streamed file be listed as a Podcast?


Well, the definition of what a podcast is seems fairly loose. 

Actually, we started out doing a podcast called "Trash Talk" and put it under the Your Mac Life "banner". Some folks couldn't seem to understand that J and I have a life outside of Macs and they complained about the "adult nature" of the Trash Talk podcast so Trash Talk has now been <b><a href="http://trashtalkpodcast.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">moved to its own web site.</a></b>


> Just wondering what you all thought. Should it be removed from the list of Podcasts on the iTMS?


LOL Well, we have done, and will do, podcasts that fit into what seems to be your definition of what a podcast should be. For example, we will be one of the few North American organizations at the Apple Expo in Paris next week and will be doing "traditional podcasts" from there.

So, I think it should stay but I'm biased.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

pent675 said:


> IMAO it is the only podcast I am willing to pay for.


Wow. We are honoured!


> What you get on the web site is the streaming feed. If you somehow captured this feed you could put it on your Ipod, however, I would suggest you step up and pay for the audible feed or listen to it live when you get video as well.


It's a shame not everyone feels this way. As this thread proves, plenty of people are out there who are happy to show and tell people how to "steal" our show.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

andreww said:


> I was never in favour of Shawn's move to Audible.


Well, a guy's gotta make money somehow.


> I find it funny that Shawn and Jay now have a podcast, Trashtalk, on itunes. What's funny about this is that until itunes started supporting podcasts, Shawn stated he would not do a regular podcast because he didnt have enough interesting stuff to fill a show with. With YML already locked into Audible, it seems Shawn had a change of heart.


You may have heard me incorrectly. i said there wasn't enough *Mac stuff* to talk about for a daily podcast that *wouldn't* take away from the Wednesday night show.

Trash Talk is about everything *but* Macs. And there's lots to talk about there. And J and I are pretty funny guys.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Heart said:


> But this podcasting thing is a tough market, especially for a show like 'Your Mac Life'.


Naw. Podcasts are easy to do. Getting recognized for quality is what is hard to do.


> Shawn King is Canadian! And his American wife has a sexy voice.


LOL She blushes and thanks you.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Heart said:


> I don't care as long as Shawn King refers to ehMac.ca on his next show.
> 
> Hello, Shawn, thats ehMac.ca - ehMac dot ca - yes that's it ehMac.ca !


LOL Fine, fine! I will!


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

If I were to ask you directly, I don't think it would have fostered the kind of debate I was looking for in the first place.

You state that the definition of a Podcast is loose. I heartily disagree with you, as does the Oxford English Dictionary:

podcast: noun; a digital recording of a radio broadcast or similar programme, made available on the Internet for downloading to a personal audio player.

I believe a stream should be disqualified from being labeled as a Podcast. 

Thank you,


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

TheBat said:


> *Try this to get YML to your iPod: (It's quite easy)*


And for every person that does that, rather than listen to the free version we post or pay for the Audible.com version, we lose money. Thanks. Appreciate you being an ass.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

pent675 said:


> You listen to YML on a Windows PC.....I really am missing something here.....It is a show about Macs!!!!


Lots of folks listen to the show on Windows machines. Lots of Mac users use Windows at work. We've even got a few hundred listeners who don't even own Macs who tune in to the show.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

ShawnKing said:


> Wow. We are honoured!
> 
> It's a shame not everyone feels this way. As this thread proves, plenty of people are out there who are happy to show and tell people how to "steal" our show.


While I haven't listened to this show much (I've heard alot about it from all the Mac forum and news sties, though) I can't understand how recording a free audio stream of a show is stealing, as long as it's for your personal listening pleasure. After all the stream is free, if I record that to listen to it later, it should still be free. I can't go sharing it or giving it to anyone else, though.

On the other hand if you as a business, record your show, package it up as a podcast or a CD and sell it, I can see paying for that, as you have gone to the work of recording it, packaging it, and making it easy to use. 



Alirio said:


> You state that the definition of a Podcast is loose. I heartily disagree with you, as does the Oxford English Dictionary:
> 
> podcast: noun; a digital recording of a radio broadcast or similar programme, made available on the Internet for downloading to a personal audio player.
> 
> I believe a stream should be disqualified from being labeled as a Podcast.


I think I agree with that definition. 

If you're providing a stream that's a different entity that's already been defined as a internet audio stream, or some such thing. Of course the internet is a lovely free-for-all that doesn't seem to have any hard rules or definitions, it seems.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Alirio said:


> If I were to ask you directly, I don't think it would have fostered the kind of debate I was looking for in the first place.


Ah...didn't realize you were looking for a debate. That's the room down the hall. 


> You state that the definition of a Podcast is loose. I heartily disagree with you, as does the Oxford English Dictionary:


Well, as we mentioned on the show, the Oxford definition is wrong - or, at least, "incomplete".

By the above definition, only shows that are "traditional" radio broadcasts qualify. Also by that definition, we (Your Mac Life and its previous iterations) have been "podcasting" for the past 10 years. 

And the Oxford definition leaves out what may be the most important part - that of software automatically downloading the files to MP3 players. *That's* what makes podcasting special.


> I believe a stream should be disqualified from being labeled as a Podcast.


If that's all it were, you *may* be correct. But it's not. <b><a href="http://www.yourmaclife.com/index.php?topic=podcast" target="_blank">See this page</a></b> for a list of the other podcasts we have done. And we'll have more from Paris next week.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Kosh said:


> On the other hand if you as a business, record your show, package it up as a podcast or a CD and sell it, I can see paying for that, as you have gone to the work of recording it, packaging it, and making it easy to use.


After a fashion, that's exactly what we do. That's why the show is available on Audible.com as a downloadable file.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Kosh said:


> While I haven't listened to this show much (I've heard alot about it from all the Mac forum and news sties, though)


BTW, you should give it a try. We're pretty entertaining.


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

Shawn,

Do you think a stream should be listed as a Podcast in iTunes the same way as a downloadable file?

If not, I reccomend you request Apple remove the streamed version of Your Mac Life from the Podcast section of the iTMS.

Thanks,


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Alirio said:


> If not, I reccomend you request Apple remove the streamed version of Your Mac Life from the Podcast section of the iTMS.


You're kidding, right? When did you get appointed to the "Podcast Police"?

As I've said, if that's *all* we were doing, you *might* be right. But, let me say it again in case you've missed it the first two times.....we *do* have other podcasts available and we *will* have more in the future - most recently, from the Apple Expo in Paris next week.

Sorry - I can't make it any plainer than that.

Now, if you want our podcasts removed because you don't like it or find it objectionable, then just say it. Wanting it removed simply becasue you can't download it to your iPod seems....well...a bit silly....


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> You're kidding, right? When did you get appointed to the "Podcast Police"?


Please do not misinterpret my firmness for aggression. No, I have not been appointed to the Podcast Police.




ShawnKing said:


> As I've said, if that's *all* we were doing, you *might* be right. But, let me say it again in case you've missed it the first two times.....we *do* have other podcasts available and we *will* have more in the future - most recently, from the Apple Expo in Paris next week.


Are you adding downloadable files to the Podcast listed on the iTMS as Your Mac Life? Right now all that is listed is a stream called _Your Mac Life for September 7th, 2005_.

If so, great. If not, it does not qualify as a Podcast.




ShawnKing said:


> Now, if you want our podcasts removed because you don't like it or find it objectionable, then just say it. Wanting it removed simply becasue you can't download it to your iPod seems....well...a bit silly....


What would you say to someone with a non-Apple related booth at Apple Expo Paris?

What about someone selling sugar pills in a bottle labled Advil?

I'd like to be as clear as possible here. So everyone interested can read it.

*What should be done if one presents the public with something called a Podcast in a medium devoted to distributing Podcasts, yet the content delivered is NOT a Podcast?*


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Alirio said:


> Please do not misinterpret my firmness for aggression.


Hmmm....you are "calling for" our podcasts to be removed from the iTMS. Sounds pretty aggressive to me.


> Are you adding downloadable files to the Podcast listed on the iTMS as Your Mac Life?


Dear God.....are you ignoring my posts on purpose? For the 4th time, we *have* other podcasts available and we *will* have more in the future.


> Right now all that is listed is a stream called _Your Mac Life for September 7th, 2005_.


And you asume that is all there has ever been or will be, right?


> If so, great. If not, it does not qualify as a Podcast.


According to who? You? Again, you're trying to be the Podcast Police.


> What would you say to someone with a non-Apple related booth at Apple Expo Paris?


"Welcome". There are several "non-Apple related booth" at every Macworld And Apple Expo.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

i thought the very heart of the definition of PodCast was the fact that you can listen to it on your portable audio device??? making it different to say a RSS feed or other streams?

http://www.ipodder.org/whatIsPodcasting



> Think how a desktop aggregator works. You subscribe to a set of feeds, and then can easily view the new stuff from all of the feeds together, or each feed separately.
> 
> Podcasting works the same way, with one exception. Instead of reading the new content on a computer screen, you listen to the new content on an iPod or iPod-like device.


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

OK...

I understand you may feel slighted by my posts, but let's try and get through this without our feelings getting in the way.

When you write "other podcasts" do you mean episodes to _Your Mac Life_ or other podcasts as in "shows"? 


I, at present, *am *assuming that the _Your Mac Life_ Podcast will remain an outlet exclusively used to distribute your stream because there is only one episode listed.

Most Podcasts I have seen listed on iTMS have more episodes listed.

Finally, this all started because I wanted to listen to your show on my iPod as I do other Podcasts. I was mislead by whomever decided it was acceptable to place a stream in an area devoted to downloadable files.

If your contention is that a stream beloings in an area devoted to downloadable files (Podcasts) than we should be debating the merits of such a position, not whether or not you will have other content under different titles or under the same title.

I am not ignoring your posts, nor am I obtuse enough to believe that I have dominion over what is permitted to exist on the iTMS.

I am however offended by the idea that you, or anyone else for that matter, can distribute a stream as though it were a real podcast and expect noone to notice.

Why not respond to this, rather than *ignoring *it?
_What should be done if one presents the public with something called a Podcast in a medium devoted to distributing Podcasts, yet the content delivered is NOT a Podcast?_


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

_*Alirio*_, the problem here is that you and _*Shawn*_ have DIFFERING opinions on the definition of PodCast. i agree, and i believe most would as well, that part of the definition of being a PodCast is being able to download the content to your computer and onto your portable audio player, be it a iPod or any other mp3 portable device.


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## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

Tomatoe, tomato, lets call the whole thing off


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2005)

I can feel the love.


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## darkscot (Nov 13, 2003)

MacME said:


> _*Alirio*_, the problem here is that you and _*Shawn*_ have DIFFERING opinions on the definition of PodCast. i agree, and i believe most would as well, that part of the definition of being a PodCast is being able to download the content to your computer and onto your portable audio player, be it a iPod or any other mp3 portable device.


Exactly! Until the put an airport card in my iPod so I can stream music to it, streams should not be called podcasts, cuz they're not pod-able. 

Maybe they couldn't find a better place to put it?


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

I concede that the argument is deadlocked.

My apologies to anyone I may have obfuscated in the process of expressing my strongly held beliefs.

I rather enjoy Shawn's show, when I find the time to listen.

I was VERY disapointed to see that it wasn't available as a free download.

Peace everyone!


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

For anyone interested in the debate, I'll be openning a thread in _Everything Else, eh?_ about what can be called a Podcast...


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MacME said:


> i thought the very heart of the definition of PodCast was the fact that you can listen to it on your portable audio device???


Not at all. If that's all it took, they should be called "YMLCasts" - we've been making our show available for download to "portable audio devices" for more than 5 years.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

"Podcast are radio shows that are downloaded over the Internet. You can find a wide variety of posdcast in the Podcast Directory. Subscribe to then and iTunes will automatically download new episodes" - iTunes information screen

Of course everyone and their mothers are using the latest greatest marketing buzzword "Podcast", from Rush to our friend Shawn for any recording. Problem is that most of it should be labelled cr**.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

Alirio said:


> For anyone interested in the debate, I'll be openning a thread in _Everything Else, eh?_ about what can be called a Podcast...


alright! let's go to another forum and *SHOUT AT EACH OTHER* some more!!!


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Alirio said:


> I, at present, *am *assuming that the _Your Mac Life_ Podcast will remain an outlet exclusively used to distribute your stream because there is only one episode listed.


You are "assuming" even in the face of evidence to the contrary.


> I am not ignoring your posts, nor am I obtuse enough to believe that I have dominion over what is permitted to exist on the iTMS.


I completely disagree. That's *exactly* what you are doing. In trying to decide, for Apple, what should and shouldn't be listed in*their* directory.


> I am however offended by the idea that you, or anyone else for that matter, can distribute a stream as though it were a real podcast and expect noone to notice.


Well, your taking offense to something so completely trivial is unbelievably ridiculous. Have all the world's or even your problems been solved that you have to be "offended" by something so completely insignificant?

What about Video podcasts? Are you offended that they can't be played on your iPod? What about podcasts that are simply rehashed from TV shows? Do they offend you? Explicit podcasts?

Where does your "offense" end?


> Why not respond to this, rather than *ignoring *it?


LOL Pot, meet Kettle.


> _What should be done if one presents the public with something called a Podcast in a medium devoted to distributing Podcasts, yet the content delivered is NOT a Podcast?_


Ok....let me make this clear one more time....

WE HAVE HAD OTHER PODCASTS ON THE iTMS. WE WILL, BEGINNING NEXT WEEK, HAVE MORE FROM THE APPLE EXPO IN PARIS, FRANCE.

Clear enough for you?


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

I had prepared a vitriolic response.

I've reconsidered.

I've given you ample opportunity to realise that this isn't personal, yet you continue to espouse that I think myself above the Podcast law so to speak.

Enjoy Paris, it's beautiful this time of year.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2005)

where are things going on this forum? Do mods (have to start getting heavy handed?)

Can you take this to a different forum or PM's already?


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

Alirio said:


> I had prepared a vitriolic response.
> 
> I've reconsidered.
> 
> ...


i applaud your decision.

on a side note, does this forum have an ignore list like on other forums?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Alirio said:


> I had prepared a vitriolic response.
> 
> I've reconsidered.


LOL Good.


> I've given you ample opportunity to realise that this isn't personal,


Dude....*you* may not think it's personal but you are trying to start a campaign to have *my* show removed from the iTMS. You don't think that makes it personal to *me*?


> yet you continue to espouse that I think myself above the Podcast law so to speak.


I have said no such thing but, if it makes you feel better to think so, you go right ahead.


> Enjoy Paris, it's beautiful this time of year.


I won't have time to "enjoy Paris" - I'll be PODCASTING.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

mguertin said:


> where are things going on this forum? Do mods (have to start getting heavy handed?)
> 
> Can you take this to a different forum or PM's already?


Wha....? I didn't realize someone was forcing you to read these posts.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MacME said:


> on a side note, does this forum have an ignore list like on other forums?


Why do people seem to have such a hard time *not reading* those posts not of interest to them? I honestly don't understand that.


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Why do people seem to have such a hard time *not reading* those posts not of interest to them? I honestly don't understand that.


We finally agree on something...  

Thank you MacME for bringing Shawn and I together.


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Dude....*you* may not think it's personal but you are trying to start a campaign to have *my* show removed from the iTMS. You don't think that makes it personal to *me*?


Campaign? Over-reacting aren't we???


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2005)

It was of interest to me until you started ranting about it all Shawn. I was coming back to read (potentially) interesting information, not rants from you being personally attacked by everyone. I say that I agree that you're show is not a podcast if it can't be downloaded and moved to an iPod (notice the Pod part of the name?).

This forum is going downhill ...


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

I would like to apologize to everyone if this should have been posted in a differnt forum.

My intent was to debate the legitimacy of the label Podcast with regards to a stream.

I chose to use Shawn King's show as an example because it is the "Podcast" that made me think to post this thread to begin with. 

I thought posting it in the Anything Mac or iPod forum was OK because it has to do with Podcasting and therefore iPods.

Please feel free to request this thread's demise (deletion) if it's gotten too far out of hand.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

mguertin said:


> It was of interest to me until you started ranting about it all Shawn.


What ranting?


> I was coming back to read (potentially) interesting information, not rants from you being personally attacked by everyone.


Never said I was being attacked by everyone. *One* person is trying to have my show removed from the iTMS. You don't think that's something I should defend?


> I say that I agree that you're show is not a podcast if it can't be downloaded and moved to an iPod (notice the Pod part of the name?).


*One* example of what we do is not a "podcast" (which no one has even bothered to define correctly, BTW).

If any of you bother to listen to the show, you'd hear the explanation of why the stream of the show is included on the iTMS (hint: for the convenience of the audience). If you bothered to go to the web site I linked to, you'd see we've done a bunch of podcasts (and have beeen doing them since at least November of 2004).

And, finally, if you bothered to read what I posted, you'd know we will be doing more podcasts as soon as next week from the Apple Expo in Paris.


> This forum is going downhill ...


Don't blame the forum for the action of its participants.


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

I am confused as to why you need to use $50 dollar words to discuss a topic about free downloads....regardless of the name. 

I suggest we open a discussion to debate why the never ending story is only 2 hours long. I am guessing this would keep you busy for years.... 

Think about that.....


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

LOL...your killing me!


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

mguertin said:


> It was of interest to me until you started ranting about it all Shawn. I was coming back to read (potentially) interesting information, not rants from you being personally attacked by everyone. I say that I agree that you're show is not a podcast if it can't be downloaded and moved to an iPod (notice the Pod part of the name?).
> 
> This forum is going downhill ...


Actually he was only being attacked by one person....not everyone. I suggest if you don't like this stuff then go and create what ever you feel is a "real" podcast and let us stand in judement until then @##%[email protected]#$#$%......


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2005)

Waaaaa, it wasn't even me complaining about it, I was bitching about all the bitching

waaaaaa.. don't pick on my podcast .... waaaaa... it is a podcast ... waaaaaa ... it's a personal attack ... waaaaaa... no it's not ... waaaaaaa

that all adds up to a lot of waaaaaa's ... I'm gone, got better things to do with my time.

As for a real podcast, stay tuned and you may be surprised what I can come up with personally.  Is everyone happier? Have I kept up the whine content enough in this post to be worthy of this thread?


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

I see podcasts as the proverbial soapbox. A chance for everyday people to express themselves to the masses. The danger in itunes carrying shows that do not "technicaly" qualify as podcasts, is that the soapbox will become lost amongst the "big name" made for profit shows. 

Amongst the top 10 podcasts on itunes right now I see, CBC (2 listings), FOX, Ebert & Roper, BBC, and Al Franken. 

Yes, these are the pioneers of podcasting! 

I, do however give Shawn his dues as one of the first real podcasters, however, I really don't think YML should be listed as a podcast. Podcasts, IMHO, are free shows that can be downloaded and played on an ipod. Shawn made the decision to take his show commercial and go the Audible route, and I don't think Apple would allow it to be listed if it were available through any other service than Audible.


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> ... plenty of people are out there who are happy to show and tell people how to "steal" our show.


Wow this thread has strayed far from the mark!! If I record a TV show to watch at a time that suits me (and only for my personal use), is that stealing??

If I record a radio broadcast onto a cassette, again for my personal use, at a time and place that better suits me, is that stealing??

Shawn, I will continue "recording" your very enjoyable show, to listen at a time and place that is convenient to me (like on my daily commute to work). 

If you discontinue the free stream, I will then have the option of _*buying *_the Audible download. You have chosen to broadcast the free stream - don't get upset at those of us who use this free stream for our personal enjoyment and enlightment - _isn't this what you want?_


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

*To ShawnKing*

Go blow your show.

I'm new to this thread, but the back and forth is ridiculous.

As they say in the biz, you're an interested third party.. therefore it's my interpretation that you're not in a position to provide an unbiased definition of what a Podcast is.

They call it a "Pod" cast, not a "web" cast, which to me means it should play on my "Pod", not just my "web".

I've never listened to your show.. and your display here has cemented that that will never happen.

Do yourself a favour, and give yourself an alias, so you can shamelessly promote your show without damaging your own reputation.


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> Go blow your show.
> 
> I'm new to this thread, but the back and forth is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


 Wow..what a truly uninformed comment. If you have never istened to the show why would you even comment. And I have nothing to do with the show what so ever. 

If you copy this show and put in on an Ipod it is now a podcast by definition.....


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

I am streaming last weeks show right now.


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## TheAnalyst (Sep 8, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> Go blow your show.
> 
> As they say in the biz, you're an interested third party.. therefore it's my interpretation that you're not in a position to provide an unbiased definition of what a Podcast is.
> 
> Do yourself a favour, and give yourself an alias, so you can shamelessly promote your show without damaging your own reputation.


I find it interesting that Shawn King posted as himself.
I have visited his website and lacked any interest in it. I did not enjoy his musings - either.
But, I think that it's honerable that he has tried to defend his show. Obviously it's very dear to his heart. I'm glad he is not hiding under some fake name.




ShawnKing said:


> Dude....*you* may not think it's personal but you are trying to start a campaign to have *my* show removed from the iTMS. You don't think that makes it personal to *me*?


Sure it does but it also shows a lack of confidence in what you are doing. In a strange way adding credence to your "foe".


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

pent675 said:


> Wow.. If you copy this show and put in on an Ipod it is now a podcast by definition.....


Um, yeah thats right!


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

pent675 said:


> If you copy this show and put in on an Ipod it is now a podcast by definition.....


Hey, I'm no Podcast expert.. but isn't that what ShawnKing didn't want to happen? Wasn't he arguing that recording the stream and putting it on an iPod defeated the Audible download, which is an income source for him?

If I've made a complete gaff, then I apologize.


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

TheAnalyst said:


> I find it interesting that Shawn King posted as himself.
> I have visited his website and lacked any interest in it. I did not enjoy his musings - either.
> But, I think that it's honerable that he has tried to defend his show. Obviously it's very dear to his heart. I'm glad he is not hiding under some fake name.


I totally agree that it is honerable.. just maybe not *smart* in the following sense:

Shawn will suffer from what every public figure does.. the general public will develop an opinion about his work based not only on the content and quality of his work, but how he is perceived in general..

..many celebs fall victim to these issues.. you're tried in the public court of opinion..

I'm just suggesting that while interesting for us, Shawn might better protect himself by getting into arguments with the use of a pseudonym..

After all, his job is to maximize his potential listening audience (i.e. revenue source).

Alienating potential listeners is not good business. (And please.. no comments about "yeah, but it's more important that he be true to himself"... blah!)


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> Hey, I'm no Podcast expert.. but isn't that what ShawnKing didn't want to happen? Wasn't he arguing that recording the stream and putting it on an iPod defeated the Audible download, which is an income source for him?
> 
> If I've made a complete gaff, then I apologize.


 I would agree, however, this is a different issue. Don't confuse the need and right to make a living with the issue of what is or is not a podcast. I actually purchase he Audible content as I see value in the show and I am willing make a contribution via my Audible subscription. 

I am also amazed that no one has talked about RSS feeds. This is really the difference between "podcasts" and simply an audio file on an MP3 player.

Just my two cents....I am done on this issue..it has been fun.


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

pent675 said:


> Don't confuse the need and right to make a living with the issue of what is or is not a podcast.


No confusion, in my mind.. Of course you can record any audio and stick it on your iPod.. but that doesn't make all audio a "Podcast" does it?

In my mind, if it's on iTunes as a Podcast, then it should play on my iPod.

Plain and simple.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

pent675 said:


> I am confused as to why you need to use $50 dollar words to discuss a topic about free downloads....regardless of the name.


LOL Who are you talking to/about?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

andreww said:


> Podcasts, IMHO, are free shows that can be downloaded and played on an ipod. Shawn made the decision to take his show commercial and go the Audible route,
> And, as I have said *several* times, we *have* podcasts (by everyone else's definition) availaable.
> and I don't think Apple would allow it to be listed if it were available through any other service than Audible.


Our show is also availabe for sale from the iTMS as individual shows.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> Go blow your show.


LOL Same to you.


> I'm new to this thread, but the back and forth is ridiculous.


Why?


> As they say in the biz, you're an interested third party.. therefore it's my interpretation that you're not in a position to provide an unbiased definition of what a Podcast is.


I never said I was unbiased. I'm *completely* biased. But I also know what I'm talking about.


> I've never listened to your show.. and your display here has cemented that that will never happen.


Thanks. We really don't want close minded people to listen. It's not the show for them.


> Do yourself a favour, and give yourself an alias,


Unlike a lot of people on the web, I don't hide behind aliases.


> so you can shamelessly promote your show


If I was interested in "shamelessly promoting my show", I'd post more info about it in various places. You'll notice I never mention our show on these forums unless it has relevance to the topic at hand.


> without damaging your own reputation.


LOL I *really* don't care if people see me defending what we do and how we do it as "damaging our reputation". If you think that way, fine. Like I said, we don't want you listening to the show. It wouldn't be suitable for you.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Heart said:


> I am streaming last weeks show right now.


Hope you enjoyed it.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

TheAnalyst said:


> Sure it does but it also shows a lack of confidence in what you are doing. In a strange way adding credence to your "foe".


How so? I know Apple is *very* quick to pull shows people complain about. I've already gotten emails from "friends at Apple" giving me a heads up about complaints. If it weren't for them, the show may have already been pulled by some people's (unfounded) complaints.


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

Just like fishing...

...put bait in water... oh look! fish!

Human behaviour is so predictable.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> Shawn will suffer from what every public figure does..


LOL It depends on your definition of "suffer" in this context but I don't worry about it. I know what I know and I know the audience we are looking for understands what the show is about and how we go about ddoing what we do. If you don't, that's fine. I'm not going to convince you otherwise and, for those who don't listen because of what I post here, well, that's pretty silly but, as I said, we don't want people who feel that way to listen to the show to begin with.


> the general public will develop an opinion about his work based not only on the content and quality of his work, but how he is perceived in general..


And that's fine. I have no problem with that and don't "suffer" for it at all.


> I'm just suggesting that while interesting for us, Shawn might better protect himself by getting into arguments with the use of a pseudonym..


Nope. I think pseudonyms are cowardly. I stand behind what I say by using my own, real name.


> After all, his job is to maximize his potential listening audience (i.e. revenue source).


No offense meant but, no it's not. Our job is to provide entertainment and information to those who listen. We have never tried, nor will we, to please all the people all of the time. It's not possible. And, if you try, you end up with lowest common denominator pablum. That's not the show we are interested in doing.

We have opinions. We voice those opinions. We encourage people to have their own. Sometimes, those opinions differe from ours. That's great. But people who wouldn't listen to the show because of what I posted here (and what I've posted here is meaningless - there's been no name calling, smears or anything negative) are just being ridiculous. And we don't *want* them as listeners. It would be a waste of their time.


> Alienating potential listeners is not good business.


True but alienating people who don't appreciate what you do is meaningless. Those people wouldn't listen any way. So why not defend yourself and what you do in an open and honest way?

As to it being "good business", we are very lucky in that people who listen to the show tend to enjoy it and are very loyal to it. We have a core group of advertisers who appreciate what we do and how we do it and the loyal audience we bring to the table.

If listeners are happy and the advertisers are happy, you really can't ask for anything more.


> (And please.. no comments about "yeah, but it's more important that he be true to himself"... blah!)


Sorry but it's true.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> In my mind, if it's on iTunes as a Podcast, then it should play on my iPod.


Video podcasts or "vodcasts" don't play on your iPod. They are included on the iTMS. Should they be removed?


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Video podcasts or "vodcasts" don't play on your iPod. They are included on the iTMS. Should they be removed?


Uh.. as a matter of fact, I would expect the ability to play them on my iPod if it had video capability..

Again.. the logic here is PODcast = playable on iPOD.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> Uh.. as a matter of fact, I would expect the ability to play them on my iPod if it had video capability..


But your iPod doesn't....


> Again.. the logic here is PODcast = playable on iPOD.


Are you saying they shouldn't be playable on other MP3 players?


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> As to it being "good business", we are very lucky in that people who listen to the show tend to enjoy it and are very loyal to it. We have a core group of advertisers who appreciate what we do and how we do it and the loyal audience we bring to the table.
> 
> If listeners are happy and the advertisers are happy, you really can't ask for anything more.


I wholly agree with your comments about the "lowest common denominator", by the way.. sometimes a little controversy stimulates interest in listeners..

But do your advertisers agree with you alienating Mac-friendly listeners?

Or do they want you to maximize your listener base?


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## mac_geek (May 14, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Are you saying they shouldn't be playable on other MP3 players?


Man, that's a red herring..

You seem to be acting very defensive, albeit enviably fiesty!


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> But do your advertisers agree with you alienating Mac-friendly listeners?


"alienating"? No. But they are understanding of the fact that we are not pablum and that we *will* ruffle feathers from time to time.

Perfect example was a month or so ago. We interviewed one of the producers of the movie, "The Aristocrats". For those of you who don't know, it's a movie where about a hundred comedians tell "The world's Dirtiest Joke". Some listeners complained to our advertisers about the content. 2 of our advertisers said they loved the interview. 


> Or do they want you to maximize your listener base?


They don't care how big our customer base is. They want as many sales as possible. They believe, and have told us, that our show provides them the best bang for the buck.

Mac users are extraordinarily loyal to the platform. They are almost as loyal to companies who support the platform and they are almost as loyal to advertisers who support the things they enjoy on their Mac. There is no doubt that we have an extraordinarily loyal audience who have consistently shown their support for the advertisers of the show.

On our old forums, we had a thread about "How much has Your Mac Life cost you?" It was just a fun thread of what people had bought because they heard about it through the show. I added up the amount and, conservatively speaking, our audience had spent over $250,000 on products they had heard about on the show, either through advertisers or through interviews, in the past 6 months.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

mac_geek said:


> You seem to be acting very defensive, albeit enviably fiesty!


Not defense at all. Sorry if it came across that way. It is a legitimate question.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

I don't understand why someone couldn't charge money for people to listen to a podcast.. either way, it's a podcast. No?

I see no mention of "Free" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcast

It also mentions "Other" players.

Shawn has many "Podcasts" and a streaming show which inevitably turns into a "Podcast" which you have to pay for.. therefore, it's rightful place is in iTMS under the "Podcast" section. IMO.


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> LOL Who are you talking to/about?


Alirio foe such gems as "I had prepared a vitriolic response." He had a few other gems as well.

See, this is what you get when people develop a thesaurus widget.


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## darkscot (Nov 13, 2003)

will this become another schism in the Church of Mac? like the division between permission repairers and old school Mac 9ers? Like the iconoclasts and iconophiles? stay tuned...but make it downloadable to my 'Pod


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

pent675 said:


> Alirio foe such gems as "I had prepared a vitriolic response." He had a few other gems as well.
> 
> See, this is what you get when people develop a thesaurus widget.


Thesaurus Widget? Not likely.

I tend to hypervocabularize things when the terms I feel fit best are too close to vernacular.

Words are free! Podcasts should be too.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Why do people seem to have such a hard time *not reading* those posts not of interest to them? I honestly don't understand that.


i DON'T want to read your posts, so an ignore list helps filter your posts while keeping others in a thread of interest. is that too hard to understand? *shesh*


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

pent675 said:


> Wow..what a truly uninformed comment. If you have never istened to the show why would you even comment. And I have nothing to do with the show what so ever.
> 
> If you copy this show and put in on an Ipod it is now a podcast by definition.....


yeah and ShawnKing will call you an ASS to your face! LOL


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MacME said:


> i DON'T want to read your posts, so an ignore list helps filter your posts while keeping others in a thread of interest.


LMAO And yet....you do.....


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MacME said:


> yeah and ShawnKing will call you an ASS to your face! LOL


Wha....? You're just babbling now....


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Vexel said:


> I don't understand why someone couldn't charge money for people to listen to a podcast..


People do. We do it with the downloadable version of our show through Audible.com. And Apple is working on a way to have paid podcasts through the iTMS.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> LMAO And yet....you do.....


"meiow, meiow, meiow" said the cat, over the spilt milk.

now i'm babbling.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Wha....? You're just babbling now....


you don't remember your own comments made in this thread?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MacME said:


> you don't remember your own comments made in this thread?


Well, if you quoted them properly, I wouldn't have to.

I certainly don't remember calling anyone "an ass to their face" as you seem to think I have.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

I can't decide if this is the funniest thread on ehMac or the saddest.

Probably somewhere in between.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

CarbonKen said:


> I can't decide if this is the funniest thread on ehMac or the saddest.
> 
> Probably somewhere in between.


Why is it either? What is funny/sad about this thread?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> Why is it either? What is funny/sad about this thread?


Shawn chill - enjoy your time in France. Expensive meals and all (see I listen).
No need to get worked up. It's a joy to have you on this forum, would not want to loose you.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Shawn chill - enjoy your time in France. Expensive meals and all (see I listen). No need to get worked up.


It's a shame so many people think they know what someone is thinking or feeling simply by reading their words.

I am not "unchilled". I am not getting worked up over anything. I was simply asking a question. Don't assume you know what I'm thinking or feeling from the words that are posted here. 


> It's a joy to have you on this forum, would not want to loose you.


Huh? What makes you think this minor tempest in a teapot would make me leave this forum? Again, I have given no indication that I am upset. If you are reading that into my posts - stop.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Shawn King anyway?

Mel


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

ShawnKing said:


> Why is it either? What is funny/sad about this thread?


This thread is 10 pages long, 10 postes per page. Almost 100 posts back and forth.

That is funny.

And it is also sad.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Melonie said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but who is Shawn King anyway?


LOL Ummm...Me.... 

"I" am also a former quarterback for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, a former offensive lineman for the Baltimore Ravens and an Oscar winning composer.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Melonie said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but who is Shawn King anyway?


Some dude once from TO that likes to talk about Macs, fishing and sounds funny in a Podcast(?) or should we label it something else.......


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

CarbonKen said:


> This thread is 10 pages long, 10 postes per page. Almost 100 posts back and forth.
> 
> That is funny.
> 
> And it is also sad.


I still don't get it. What is sad or funny about people posting, the amount they post or the number of posts in a thread? I thought the point of forums in general was to post about topics of interest to forum participants.

Is there a posting limit I'm not aware of? Are people supposed to post slowly? I don't get it.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Some dude once from TO that likes to talk about Macs....


LOL Wrong.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> LOL Wrong.


I edited my post... you are posting too fast... there is a limit you know...


uhmmm he's the host/producer of YML, the internet's #1 Mac Broadcast!


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

Please visit my thread in another forum if you would like to debate what constitues a Podcast... there is also a poll.

What is a Podcast? 

Thank you.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

ShawnKing said:


> I still don't get it. What is sad or funny about people posting, the amount they post or the number of posts in a thread? I thought the point of forums in general was to post about topics of interest to forum participants.
> 
> Is there a posting limit I'm not aware of? Are people supposed to post slowly? I don't get it.


my opinion is that it's sad. my opinion is that it is funny.

You can feel about it any way you want but I expressed my opinion, which was of interest to me, a participant of this forum.


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> I edited my post... you are posting too fast... there is a limit you know...
> 
> 
> uhmmm he's the host/producer of YML, the internet's #1 Mac Broadcast!


Okey-dokey.

Is Shawn Kink a Canadian or American? Really an ex-footballer and musician? I have a sense someone is pulling my leg on this...

Does he have a web site? Streaming video show or is it just this podcast thing that everyone is talking about (keep in mind I am an older female (not as old as SINC, mind you!  ) and not up-to-date with new technologies by a long shot.

Mel


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

From his signature:
Shawn King
Host/Executive Producer
Your Mac Life
http://www.yourmaclife.com

As for the rest, he will have to tell you.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Some dude once from TO that likes to talk about Macs, fishing


LOL Wrong on both counts. 


> and sounds funny in a Podcast(?)


Come on....I don't sound funny!


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

CarbonKen said:


> my opinion is that it's sad. my opinion is that it is funny.


Yes, I know. I'm asking you what you have that opinion and what that opinion is based on.


> You can feel about it any way you want


I don't feel any way about it. I'm simply trying to figure out why you are saying what you are saying.

See, I don't assume I know what you are thinking.  I come right out and ask you.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

OK fine, I'll bite.

I think it's funny and sad that each side of this debate (what is a podcast) seem to each want to get the last word, which is why a simple question for a thread title has become a 100+ post thread.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

CarbonKen said:


> I think it's funny and sad that each side of this debate (what is a podcast) seem to each want to get the last word,


No I don't care...


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## Melonie (Feb 10, 2005)

Thanks AS. Doh!

I'll check out his video stream when I get back to my high speed connection next week. His web site is dog-slow on dialup.

Mel



ArtistSeries said:


> From his signature:
> Shawn King
> Host/Executive Producer
> Your Mac Life
> ...


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Well, if you quoted them properly, I wouldn't have to.
> I certainly don't remember calling anyone "an ass to their face" as you seem to think I have.


enjoy!

http://www.ehmac.ca/showpost.php?p=280844&postcount=18


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MacME said:


> enjoy!
> 
> http://www.ehmac.ca/showpost.php?p=280844&postcount=18


Wha....? Seeing as we have never met, how could I have called him an ass "to his face"?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> Wha....? Seeing as we have never met, how could I have called him an ass "to his face"?


Hey Shawn has the last word!


nevermind...


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

ShawnKing said:


> LOL Wrong.


I thought you said you did live in Toronto for a short time? You obviously like macs, soooo?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

andreww said:


> I thought you said you did live in Toronto for a short time?


I lived there. I'm not *from* there. 


> You obviously like macs, soooo?


You said I liked fishing.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> You said I liked fishing.


You do - or is it just an excuse to get on a boat and drink beer..


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> You do


Wha....? Ummm...no...I don't.


> or is it just an excuse to get on a boat and drink beer..


I'm Canadian - I don't need an excuse.


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Wha....? Ummm...no...I don't.
> 
> I'm Canadian - I don't need an excuse.


 Now beer is something that really should be free...really I never keep it for long anyway.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Alirio said:


> Can someone please tell me how Shawn King's show _Your Mac Life_ can be listed as a Podcast on the iTunes Music Store when it can't be copied onto an iPod?


<b><a href="http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=73330641" target="_blank">Happy now? </a></b> (You may have to unsubscribe and resub to see that latest podcast. Seems to be some kind of glitch)


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

Now that's more like it!

Truth in advertising... or at least truth in nomenclature....


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

GOOD! now you two can kiss and make up now! LOL!


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## iBrodie (Sep 11, 2004)

Alirio said:


> .... nomenclature....


I have finally found a use of ctrl command D  Alirio its a good thing I have Tiger or I would have no clue what you said half the time.


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## Alirio (Sep 9, 2005)

I must be compensating for something...


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Alirio said:


> Now that's more like it!


LOL I *told* you we would have more up there. 


> Truth in advertising... or least truth in nomenclature....


LOL We still haven't agreed what the nomenclature *is*.


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## iBrodie (Sep 11, 2004)

ShawnKing
LOL We still haven't agreed what the nomenclature *is*. :)[/QUOTE said:


> Well Shawn I am going to asume you have Tiger, so just ctrl command D it


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## pent675 (Feb 5, 2005)

Alirio said:


> I must be compensating for something...


 This was my point way back when...Like I said thesaurs widget.....


----------

