# buying a 3 series on monday!



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Never think of the price of your car in terms of the monthly payment. Dealers and banks will play with interest rates, number of payments, etc. to make it seem like you are getting a good deal. Now the dealer is your friend so hopefully he isn't out to screw you over.

From what you said, you are getting it for $28520 for a demo. It's approximately $10K more new. How many km's on the vehicle? And according to their web site, the 323i is only available with a luxury package (at least that's all there is in the Build Your Own section), so the dealer isn't giving you extra here.

But still, if it doesn't have too many km's, it sounds like a good deal.

Oh yeah, and get the black.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Odd that. A "bimmer'? Always thought they were a "beemer". Whatever, they are overpriced and overrated snob machines. But hey, if that's your bag, go for it. Me? A Japanese, well built reliable, well performing car at near half the price does me just fine. Take your pick, Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, or even a now well built Korean Kia is a far better buy. Oh, and hang onto your wallet when you need service. Ever wonder why so many "beemers" cost as much as a "merc" to operate?


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Black cars look nice, but they have caveat - they look dirty constantly, and swirl marks and white scratches are an eye sore. (And they will come - believe me.) I've never owned a black car and never will for that those very reasons. White is better and easier to maintain, but bland and boring in my opinion - BMW loves their black, white, and several shades of grey for their vehicles - adding some colour seriously wouldn't hurt. My Mazda3 is a graphite grey - looks quite nice actually (metallic paint) when it's clean and shining and doesn't show paint imperfections nearly as badly as black vehicles do.

Nice choice on the car.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

To answer your question about the car: the 3-series is always a solid choice. A lot of the bugs of the E90 (the generation of 3-series you are looking at) have been ironed out for the 2011s, and the CPO warranty is one of the best in the business. Not to mention, the inline-six is a bulletproof motor, and I'm sure you already know the driving pleasure that goes along with the 3-series. As far as driving in the winter, I never had any issues with the 3-series, provided you have a good set of snow tires. I prefer rear-wheel drive, and as long as you drive responsibly, the stability control does the rest.

However, you aren't really getting a _deal_. BMW dealers work on ginormous gross margins (mostly to pay for the ridiculous overhead they have at their massive dealerships), so the actual principal (or MSRP) of that 323i is much higher than it should be. What makes the deal attractive, is the financing that BMW Canada offers to wrap it up in an eloquent package. Where else can you get 0.9%? It's all mathematical magic, as BMW buys down the interest rate with $8000+ gross profits. Now, it sounds like they are selling the car to you at roughly $28k-30 with those numbers, which isn't out of line, but there are a few factors at play here. Are you looking at a new BMW from the dealership because of the financing?

Reason I ask, is because if you secure good financing outside of BMW, there are far better deals to be had on used 3-series. You could get into a 2007 or 2008 328i (a large step up from the 323i) for similar money, and incur less depreciation over 4 years. The 3-series have a funny way of really keeping their value, especially the 328i and 335i. If you are someone that likes to change vehicles every 4 years or so, that depreciation factor may be important. You also may want to explore leasing. The beauty of the 3-series is that maintenance costs over the term are affordable (sometimes better than the Japanese), as long as you keep up, which makes used 3-series attractive. It may be worth it to take a peek through some AutoTrader listings before Monday.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

I concur about black. I've owned a black vehicle for years and if dirt and 'swirls' bother you in the least, go white. I think my Jeep has only looked clean twice.

Congrats on the purchase. Sounds like an excellent deal. Those who look down their noses are only jealous.


----------



## macuserforlife (Oct 30, 2004)

Nice choice on the 3 series. I'm going through this decision right now. The only difference; I'm half way through the deal on a 5 series. I'm going from an Audi A4 so I decided on the 5 series because I wanted the extra room and I'm getting the XI because I don't want to give up my AWD.

I will know in the next couple of days but, by this time next week, my Audi A4 (which I love, by the way) should be replaced by a fully loaded 535XI.

Good luck on the 3 series. Don't worry about repairs, your 160k warranty will cover that but see if you can get the maintenance package where all your servicing is covered for the first 80k.


----------



## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

You'll love it.

I test drove a many cars before deciding on an '07 335 coupe. (Guess I need to change my nickname on the site LOL). It's solid, well designed and engineered.

There were many Japanese cars I tested and none held a candle in terms of fit/finish/quality feel. The "snob" FUD is just that - usually from the uninformed type who judge most books by their cover. 

Service is included in the first 4yrs/80K. Beyond that, the service intervals seem expensive ($200 or so) but considering you need to have it done once every 26,000KM it's not really that expensive.

You'll really enjoy the ride. Congrats.





spiffychristian said:


> i'm going to buy a bimmer on monday!
> 
> it's a 2011 323i (it's a demo so it counts as CPO so i get a 6 year 160,000km warranty!)
> 
> ...


----------



## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

Oh, and I'd do the white. Looks amazing with a nice tint on the windows.

I agree with Lars and mrjimmy - black cars (especially BMW's metallic black) look amazing on the lot, and for a few hours after you wash them...but you see all the dust that settles...water spots, etc. And then the swirls and fine lines. 

Some manufacturers use a ceramic paint technique (Merc) that's supposed to eliminate that. Don't know if it's true...

Congrats again!



spiffychristian said:


> uh under 10,000kms (he said most likely under 5,000kms)
> 
> (0.9% purchase financing for 4 years) ($490 a month with a $5000 down payment - but like i said i will probably double that down payment and it's called balloon flexible or something so if i want to pay it all off in 3 months i can)
> 
> ...


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

SINC said:


> Odd that. A "bimmer'? Always thought they were a "beemer". Whatever, they are overpriced and overrated snob machines.


Some would say that about Macs too.



> But hey, if that's your bag, go for it. Me? A Japanese, well built reliable, well performing car at near half the price does me just fine. Take your pick, Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, or even a now well built Korean Kia is a far better buy. Oh, and hang onto your wallet when you need service. Ever wonder why so many "beemers" cost as much as a "merc" to operate?


It's the price for a luxurious and more exciting driving experience. A Honda or Toyota are fine cars, but a boring drive. FYI, my wife and I have only ever owned Hondas and Toyotas, but I won't pretend they're the most exciting cars in the world.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

spiffychristian said:


> and black - are you sure? i really do like the white better. why do you say that?


Black is my personal preference, well, between white and black anyway. I've never seen a white car that looks good - to me, but that's just my preference.

Oh yeah, it sounds like a great deal. I'd go fot it!


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Why would you consider buying obsolete technology? I have owned Mercedes (300 Diesel) and BMWs in my past but I've owned hybrids since 2001 and could never go back and support dead technologies. My Prius gets 1000 kms on a $38 tank of gas and emits only 10% of a 'normal' car in its class. It should be all about emissions not fast and flash...

If you are spending that much on a car, why not spend less and/or at least test drive a hybrid. They are very Mac-like - the computer manages the power between the gas and electric motor. It helps educate the driver to drive more efficiently (not slowly). 2 motors give it plenty of power - more than most of us should ever need.

I could never go back to supporting old technology. My cars have not idled when stopped since 2001 - why does yours?

There are now 3 Prius' in my immediate family - my son just bought a new one - it's white and looks very nice. And it has the lowest cost of ownership of any car in its class (and almost any class). My next car will either be an all-electric Nissan Leaf or a Plug-in Prius (100 mpg) due out next year.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

jef said:


> Why would you consider buying obsolete technology? I have owned Mercedes (300 Diesel) and BMWs in my past but I've owned hybrids since 2001 and could never go back and support dead technologies. My Prius gets 1000 kms on a $38 tank of gas and emits only 10% of a 'normal' car in its class. It should be all about emissions not fast and flash...
> 
> If you are spending that much on a car, why not spend less and/or at least test drive a hybrid. They are very Mac-like - the computer manages the power between the gas and electric motor. It helps educate the driver to drive more efficiently (not slowly). 2 motors give it plenty of power - more than most of us should ever need.
> 
> ...


Why do some people still spin vinyl records using outdated analogue technology? Why do some people still paint/enjoy paintings when there is photography, even digital photography? To each their own and as long as there are options there is no political tyranny/mind police to control our decisions. Thank Goodness!!!


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

spiffychristian said:


> also, the reason i don't buy a hybrid is because the ActiveHybrid 7 BMW is $132,300 and the ActiveHybrid X6 is $99,900 and i want a BMW. That's why.


Prius or BMW? Which would Jesus drive?


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

jef said:


> Prius or BMW? Which would Jesus drive?


Really.....?


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

screature said:


> Why do some people still spin vinyl records using outdated analogue technology? Why do some people still paint/enjoy paintings when there is photography, even digital photography? To each their own and as long as there are options there is no political tyranny/mind police to control our decisions. Thank Goodness!!!


Vinyl records don't have significant environmental/emissions issues or have massive industries milking every last cent from them (anymore). Paintings have no negative affect on the world economy like oil and the oil driven economy/dependence etc. The world's largest company doesn't sell paintings.

I would argue that there is a lot more media/mind control involved in promoting the sex/status/snob appeal of a BMW than there is promoting cleaner or alternative technologies and their benefits. Choice is good - but some choices are better than others - and better _for_ others.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

jef said:


> Vinyl records don't have significant environmental/emissions issues or have massive industries milking every last cent from them (anymore). Paintings have no negative affect on the world economy like oil and the oil driven economy/dependence etc. The world's largest company doesn't sell paintings.
> 
> I would argue that there is a lot more media/mind control involved in promoting the sex/status/snob appeal of a BMW than there is promoting cleaner or alternative technologies and their benefits. Choice is good - but some choices are better than others - and better _for_ others.


Without oil you couldn't even enjoy your Prius. Do you realize that? Most of the parts and their manufacturing in the Prius rely on the availability of oil. Do you also realize that you are effectively demonstrating your own particular snobbery?


----------



## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

screature said:


> Without oil you couldn't even enjoy your Prius. Do you realize that? Most of the parts and their manufacturing in the Prius rely on the availability of oil. Do you also realize that you are effectively demonstrating your own particular snobbery?


...and I can't wait until the militant hybrid-evangelists begin to soften their words when we reach our next environmental disaster...what do do with stockpiles of defunct batteries from hybrid cars.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

screature said:


> Without oil you couldn't even enjoy your Prius. Do you realize that? Most of the parts and their manufacturing in the Prius rely on the availability of oil. Do you also realize that you are effectively demonstrating your own particular snobbery?


I didn't say anything about not using oil at all. However, using 10% of what a normal car will use its its lifetime is significant. My next car will be a Nissan Leaf - all electric. I know that oil is involved in its manufacture and in electricity generation to power it, etc but as a whole, electric is a much more efficient and cleaner use of fossil fuels and can be supplemented with hydro, solar and wind alternatives.

Reduced emissions and reduced dependence on oil will be a long transition. It's better to invest in the transition now and help rather than supporting obsolete and inefficient technologies that are marketed the same way they were in the '60s (fast & flash). 

I don't mind if you think I'm being snobbish. Reduced emissions alone are reason enough to question why someone would buy an expensive vehicle that is manufactured and marketed for primarily for status. (Yes, I know they are fun to drive - but so is a Prius - try one!) The very snobbish hybrid BMWs that Spiffychristian mentions don't count - they are not true hybrids because they have a huge gas power-plant supplemented with an electric motor and are not designed for emissions reduction and only minimally reduce overall fuel consumption. Honda and other cars with the hybrid designation are also not as well engineered for emissions - but they are getting better. BMW is behind the engineering curve with hybrids - let's hope they jump ahead with something fuel efficient and cleaner soon.

Every little thing we can do to help have a less polluted future is important (yes, I have children) and will take considerable investment. Investing in old, inefficient automotive technologies is no longer a reasonable way to progress.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Jeepdude said:


> ...and I can't wait until the militant hybrid-evangelists begin to soften their words when we reach our next environmental disaster...what do do with stockpiles of defunct batteries from hybrid cars.


Batteries are recycled - not that there have been many to recycle yet. Toyota pays $200 plus shipping to return batteries to its recycle plant:

_Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery._

There is a lot of FUD published about hybrids! People often ask me how often I have to change the battery in my hybrid. It's a 2001 and has 180,000 kms on the original battery. The battery was recently checked by Toyota at 98% of new capacity. Toyota (not sure about other manufacturers) expect the battery to last for the life of the car and then recycle it. 

So I don't plan on having to soften my voice...


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

jef said:


> Every little thing we can do to help have a less polluted future is important (yes, I have children) and will take considerable investment. Investing in old, inefficient automotive technologies is no longer a reasonable way to progress.


It is indeed honourable that you are so concerned about what "we leave to our children", but in the end, just like individual human beings, we all die and the human species will almost certainly cease to exist. I think the most logical reason for this will come from an extraterrestrial source and nothing man-made... a la the dinosaurs for whom, had we existed, we each individually be only one chip in a bag of chips.

In the end we are here for a short time but (hopefully) a good time... enjoy while you can for the end is closer than we think/hope for. 

I know I am coming off in the extreme in terms of being hedonistic but in the end I believe we will not be the authors of our own demise in terms of our species. I simply don't think we have the power. But we will cease to exist at some point in time. Obviously to try and have the best quality of life while we are here and to non-selfishly think of the lives of future generations it is important to be wise with the consumption of anything we consume but I don't believe it is important enough to stigmatize and belittle those with whom we currently live.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

screature said:


> It is indeed honourable that you are so concerned about what "we leave to our children", but in the end, just like individual human beings, we all die and the human species will almost certainly cease to exist. I think the most logical reason for this will come from an extraterrestrial source and nothing man-made... a la the dinosaurs for whom, had we existed, each individually be only one chip in a bag of chips.
> 
> In the end we are here for a short time but (hopefully) a good time... enjoy while you can.


There is one other consolation. My son has confided in me that his new Prius is a 'chick magnet' - it was something he was concerned about....


----------



## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

Hasn't it been proven time and time again that with hybrids you never recoup your initial outlay through gas savings?


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

chasMac said:


> Hasn't it been proven time and time again that with hybrids you never recoup your initial outlay through gas savings?


Written about, yes - proven - I don't think so...

There are lots of articles that have been written that attack hybrids that have all kinds of misinformation. It is true that if you buy a, for example, BMW hybrid, there is minimal payback, if any. You are buying status/style (and a nice vehicle to drive) but not a system designed and engineered for fuel efficiency and reduced emissions. Only the Prius, and to a lesser extent, the Camry Hybrid, have been designed that way. Honda is getting better now - they are better now with fuel economy, they no longer idle when stopped - but not so much on emissions. The US hybrids still have a long way to catch up.

If you want payback for your hybrid investment, you need to stick with a Prius, Insight or Civic hybrid - most others are just electric motors added to a gas engine to earn the Hybrid badge and do not reduce fuel consumption more than 10 to 20%. You do get extra power though and this is a bit counter to the reason for hybrids in the first place. So these hybrids should not count in the studies on payback.

However, the Prius is consistently a top performer in terms of total cost of ownership studies because it has been designed for fuel efficiency first with the added engineering for low emissions. Currently I average about 1,000 kms on a 40 litre tank (last fill up was $38). My car is a 2001 and I received a PST rebate when I bought it. Do the math - I have saved a lot of money! I also save cold hands at the gas pump in the winter because I don't have to go there very often. That is why my mother bought one - she does not have to stop for gas as often as she used to.

Cost of ownership is also based on maintenance and in early cost studies, the cost of battery replacements was factored in. However, batteries have lived up to Toyota's claim 'for the life of the car'. There are very few cases of battery failures - one well documented Vancouver Taxi had 450,000 kms on it with the original battery - Google 'Vancouver Prius taxi' to see the stories about the taxi and the owner.

Having 2 motors also extends the life of the car - there is less wear and tear on 2 as there would be for one. The electric motor provides the torque until the gas motor kicks in, easing the load on both. The gas engine does not idle when stopped so it saves idle time which is most inefficient. There is no transmission to fix (it has a power-split device instead - these are holding up as well), I don't need to change oil as often (Screature - I use synthetic oil  ) and I have had no repair expenses on the car other than regular maintenance and tires. 

There are cost of ownership studies done by all the major automotive publications (google it) and the Pruis comes out on top; likewise for most customer satisfaction polls. (the headlines for these annual polls tend to downplay the Prius on top with things like: Ford fares 80% better in customer satisfaction this year...etc)

I can say with confidence that the car has more than paid back what I expected - both financially and knowing that I paid for a very nice car that emits about 10% of the pollutants of a regular car in its class. I would buy one again if a) there was anything wrong with the one I have b) they come out with a plug-in model (rumored for next year) or c) if Nissan can't get its all-electric Leaf to market next year and the wait is too long. I'm happy to keep my 2001 until one of the above happens.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Nice choice... is $490 lease or finance? Sounds like a lease but I could be mistaken. Stick or auto?


----------



## a4racer (Jan 24, 2006)

SINC said:


> Odd that. A "bimmer'? Always thought they were a "beemer". Whatever, they are overpriced and overrated snob machines. But hey, if that's your bag, go for it. Me? A Japanese, well built reliable, well performing car at near half the price does me just fine. Take your pick, Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, or even a now well built Korean Kia is a far better buy. Oh, and hang onto your wallet when you need service. Ever wonder why so many "beemers" cost as much as a "merc" to operate?


A MERCedes, or a MERCury? Hahaha, just kidding.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

jef said:


> Prius or BMW? Which would Jesus drive?


Jesus rode a donkey. Emits maybe 100x less CO2 than a Prius and a bit of dung along the way, dung that can be used for manure. I don't see Priuses contributing to vegetable production.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

dona83 said:


> Jesus rode a donkey. Emits maybe 100x less CO2 than a Prius and a bit of dung along the way, dung that can be used for manure. I don't see Priuses contributing to vegetable production.


“In New York City alone at the turn of the century, horses deposited on the streets every day an estimated 2.5 million pounds of manure and 60,000 gallons of urine, accounting for about two-thirds of the filth that littered the city’s streets. Excreta from horses in the form of dried dust irritated nasal passages and lungs, then became a syrupy mass to wade through and track into the home whenever it rained. New York insurance actuaries had established by the turn of the century that infections diseases, including typhoid fever, we much more frequently contracted by livery stable keepers and employees than by other occupational groups, and an appeal to the Brooklyn Board of Health to investigate resulted in the institution of new municipal regulations on stables, compelling more frequent removal excreta and disinfecting of premises. Medical authorities stated that tetanus was introduced into cities in horse fodder and that an important cause of diarrhea, a serious health problem among children at the time, was ‘street dust’ consisting in the main of germ-laden dried horse dung. The flies that bred on the ever present manure heaps carried more than thirty communicable diseases, and the unsightliness and stench of the stable meant that most urban owners of horses ‘boarded and baited’ them at public facilities at inconvenient distance from their residences. In addition, traffic was often clogged by the carcasses of overworked dray horses that dropped in their tracks during summer heat waves or had to be destroyed after stumbling on slippery pavements and breaking their legs. About 15,000 dead horses were removed from the streets of New York each year. . . . These conditions were characteristic in varying degree of all of our large and medium-sized cities.”

- James Flink, The Automobile Age (Cambridge, MA: The MIT Press, 1993), p. 136.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

SINC said:


> Odd that. A "bimmer'? Always thought they were a "beemer". Whatever, they are overpriced and overrated snob machines. But hey, if that's your bag, go for it. Me? A Japanese, well built reliable, well performing car at near half the price does me just fine. Take your pick, Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, or even a now well built Korean Kia is a far better buy. Oh, and hang onto your wallet when you need service. Ever wonder why so many "beemers" cost as much as a "merc" to operate?


A honda for half the price, where are you shopping? Go price out an full loaded accord or civic and see the price. A full loaded accord coupe is $37K. A full loaded civic coupe is $27. So where you at with your $$$$? And if you offer anyone a choice between a civic or bmw, I think most will take a bmw.


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> A honda for half the price, where are you shopping? Go price out an full loaded accord or civic and see the price. A full loaded accord coupe is $37K. A full loaded civic coupe is $27. So where you at with your $$$$? And if you offer anyone a choice between a civic or bmw, I think most will take a bmw.


Well.. an entry level Honda, Toyota or Mazda will be about half the price of a '3 series BMW - not the high end models, however. My Mazda3 GT was bordering on $29K when all said and done.


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

jef said:


> Why would you consider buying obsolete technology? I have owned Mercedes (300 Diesel) and BMWs in my past but I've owned hybrids since 2001 and could never go back and support dead technologies. My Prius gets 1000 kms on a $38 tank of gas and emits only 10% of a 'normal' car in its class. It should be all about emissions not fast and flash...
> 
> If you are spending that much on a car, why not spend less and/or at least test drive a hybrid. They are very Mac-like - the computer manages the power between the gas and electric motor. It helps educate the driver to drive more efficiently (not slowly). 2 motors give it plenty of power - more than most of us should ever need.
> 
> ...


Oh please. Drive on the highway and you are no different you just think you are.

When you battery no longer holds a charge where do you think it goes when its old technology after 9 years in your car and you have to replace it? How much will that cost you? And if no one wants to spend the money to replace a battery on 9 year old car where does the car go? It goes to the same place all cars go.

Old technology? LMAO. You still have a gas motor in there, do you not pump gasoline into it?


----------



## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Lars said:


> Well.. an entry level Honda, Toyota or Mazda will be about half the price of a '3 series BMW - not the high end models, however. My Mazda3 GT was bordering on $29K when all said and done.


Exactly.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

Joker Eh said:


> Oh please. Drive on the highway and you are no different you just think you are.
> 
> When you battery no longer holds a charge where do you think it goes when its old technology after 9 years in your car and you have to replace it? How much will that cost you? And if no one wants to spend the money to replace a battery on 9 year old car where does the car go? It goes to the same place all cars go.
> 
> Old technology? LMAO. You still have a gas motor in there, do you not pump gasoline into it?


The batteries are recycled - at no cost to me - see the previous post about this. Mine is 9 years old and the battery is still good and should be for the life of the car. Then it will be recycled.

Yes, I pump gas into it - but far less than a non-hybrid. And it has only 10% of the emissions. 

I would prefer not to use any gas - but we are not there yet - but soon.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I have no doubt that the Prius is a great car, when I rented one I was doing my best to keep the average gas use below 3.8L/100km. Phenomenal car, but I don't think you have a right to judge us. BMWs are enjoyable cars to drive, unfortunately they are a status symbol now but the old BMWs from 20 years ago were awesome cars. If you want archaic technology, I drive a manual transmission, I love my stickshift and clutch and won't give it up anytime soon. The Honda CR-Z would be a great car but with two seats it doesn't suit my needs. Fortunately my six seater Mazda 5, it's fun to drive and practical. 

However that and my Toyota Celica mostly sit at home, my wife and I take transit to work. I could judge people for not taking transit to work but I don't, my CO2 emissions as a transit user is only mildly better than a single occupant car, meaning it's still way up there.

If we TRULY want to be better for the environment, you would live working distance from work, cycle for longer distances, and travel around the world by sailboats, but for most of us that's unrealistic right? Live the life the way you want it, your ethics are yours alone. 

By the way, the Prius does NOT have 10% the emissions of other cars. Maybe when the plug-in with EV mode comes in sure and only in the city not on the highway, or maybe in extreme stop and go traffic. The Prius still burns 4L/100km which would be about 40-60% of the typical compact to midsize vehicle, every L of gasoline burned will produce the same CO2. 

To add, Subaru makes Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle versions of some of their gasoline only cars. Mazda also released some of their vehicles with i-Stop technology in Japan which turns off an engine when the car is stopped without batteries, and to start it again all you need to do is step on the gas. Ingenious, eh? I have to say though that I am just as excited about the Nissan Leaf, it will make an excellent second car for short around town trips.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

jef said:


> Why would you consider buying obsolete technology? I have owned Mercedes (300 Diesel) and BMWs in my past but I've owned hybrids since 2001 and could never go back and support dead technologies.


I just bought a sub-compact car for the purposes of saving fuel on my daily commute - I drive 60km each day, mostly 80km for a few minutes, stop at a stop sign, repeat. I considered a Prius, but did not purchase one for the following reasons:

1. Hybrids are advantageous on a specific driving pattern, mine was not it. If it was mostly stop and go, rarely more than 60km, then it'd be different.
2. Even though Toyota will recycle your batteries free, you still have to pay for a new set of batteries when the old ones go.
3. You pay a $10K premium for a hybrid. It's simply not economical yet, unless you drive around the city all day.
4. The performance is not there. For a $30+K car, I'd expect to be able to quickly accelerate in emergency situations. The Prius doesn't.

I'm glad you like your Prius, I really do. But let's quit with the moral relativism. Your car is not the best choice for everyone.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Hybrids do not have a $10k premium, it's more of a $4k to $5k premium...


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I went from an RS4 to a Civic. I can't handle a car with no guts. Getting a 2011 BMW M3 next week. Sorry, but once you get a car like that, you can never go back.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

dona83 said:


> Hybrids do not have a $10k premium, it's more of a $4k to $5k premium...


Fair enough - the price of hybrids came down a bit, but the argument still holds. It takes a lot of driving to make up for $5K in savings, and that is if you fit the driving pattern that a hybrid takes advantage of. Top it off with the decreased power, and it simply isn't worth it yet for a lot of people.


----------



## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Just bought a pre-loved hyundai last week. Having owned various luxury vehicles in the past, I decided to try something a little more economical. I must say that I'm very impressed with it, and Hyundai has come a very long way since the days of the Pony and Excel. Bimmers are beautiful cars for sure, and I'd love to own one at some point, but at this point in my life I'd rather save a lot of money and give up a little horsepower.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

jef said:


> Prius or BMW? Which would Jesus drive?


Neither. Jesus would walk.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

dona83 said:


> By the way, the Prius does NOT have 10% the emissions of other cars. Maybe when the plug-in with EV mode comes in sure and only in the city not on the highway, or maybe in extreme stop and go traffic. The Prius still burns 4L/100km which would be about 40-60% of the typical compact to midsize vehicle, every L of gasoline burned will produce the same CO2.
> 
> To add, Subaru makes Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle versions of some of their gasoline only cars. Mazda also released some of their vehicles with i-Stop technology in Japan which turns off an engine when the car is stopped without batteries, and to start it again all you need to do is step on the gas. Ingenious, eh? I have to say though that I am just as excited about the Nissan Leaf, it will make an excellent second car for short around town trips.


The Prius is rated as a SULEV:
Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) is a U.S. classification for conventionally powered or gasoline-electric hybrid vehicle designed to produce minimal emissions of certain categories of air pollution at their point of use, typically 90% less than that of an equivalent ordinary full gasoline vehicle for the controlled pollution categories.

90% less = 10% of a regular car.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

hayesk said:


> Fair enough - the price of hybrids came down a bit, but the argument still holds. It takes a lot of driving to make up for $5K in savings, and that is if you fit the driving pattern that a hybrid takes advantage of. Top it off with the decreased power, and it simply isn't worth it yet for a lot of people.


I would argue that a BMW in 2010 has a huge premium - you pay a fortune for the badge & the status appeal that comes with it. And there is no payback: only depreciation.

I did love my BMW 2002Ti back in the days when they were ahead of the engineering curve with extremely efficient 4 cylinder cars that could keep up with the Detroit muscle at a fraction of the mpg.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

hayesk said:


> Fair enough - the price of hybrids came down a bit, but the argument still holds. It takes a lot of driving to make up for $5K in savings, and that is if you fit the driving pattern that a hybrid takes advantage of. Top it off with the decreased power, and it simply isn't worth it yet for a lot of people.


At $70 to $80/week to drive an SUV (my neighbour pays that much), it doesn't take long to get money back - plus the resale value of the Prius is one of the highest. It does make sense financially. 

I don't know what driving pattern you mean. Even on the highway, the fuel consumption is better than all cars and tied with a VW diesel. But should be all about emissions anyway...

What decreased power are you referring to? Drive one - they are not slow compared to most sedans in its class. It does over 160kms/hr on the highway - not that I've tried.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

jef said:


> *But should be all about emissions anyway...*


So you presume to speak for everyone from some sort of moral imperative that not everyone adheres to? I guess you are a fan of tyrants, because that is the modus operandi of all tyrants.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

screature said:


> So you presume to speak for everyone from some sort of moral imperative that not everyone adheres to? I guess you are a fan of tyrants, because that is the modus operandi of all tyrants.



Nooo, not a fan of tyrants. But when people make expensive and important choices that do affect others based on mis-information, as evidenced by a lot of posts here repeating the anti-hybrid myths, I think it is important that these choices be made with accurate information. People keep telling me all kinds of things about why they won't consider a hybrid and most of the information they are working with is simply incorrect.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

jef said:


> Nooo, not a fan of tyrants. But when people make expensive and important choices that do affect others based on mis-information, as evidenced by a lot of posts here repeating the anti-hybrid myths, I think it is important that these choices be made with accurate information. People keep telling me all kinds of things about why they won't consider a hybrid and most of the information they are working with is simply incorrect.


Ok fair enough, but in your posts so far you have had a penchant for telling people what they "should" do based on an imperative that you hold to be true that they may not. This kind of communication crosses the line of offering information and clarification to that of personal bias and zealotry.

By way of analogy, if what you said in your post is true then you should write like a reporter and not a columnist/editor. People tend to take little exception with reporters when they simply state the facts without adding any moral or ethical imperative, moral or ethical imperatives are the domain of columnists and editors. The choice is obviously yours, but being that you are not a reporter, columnist or editor here on ehMac whose stated purpose is to be a community... a la the tag line, _Canada's Mac Community_ you might want to consider your tone when speaking to others.

That being said, I know that I am "strong drink" for some people here and I tend to regret it when I am because I do so more times than not out of emotion and not with due deliberation. So I have to admit to sometimes being guilty of the very thing that I am being critical of with your posts in terms of tone. 

Let's all (myself included) just try to get along without p**sing people off or coming off as condescending, holier than thou or pretentious and ehMac will be a happier place.  Peace out.


----------



## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

I hope you enjoy your new BM. Our 3 series is a disaster. With less that 100,000km the trans lost all drive and spewed its fluid all over the laneway - $5000 and three weeks to get a used unit put in, no help from BM. It has already needed brake work (of course at BMW premium prices). Then the stereo overheated so badly it smelled like fire - it was only because I was gearhead enough to know to pull the fuses and how to figure which ones to pull that saved us from losing the whole car. Three "toasted" stereos later the dealer figured out there was a short in the door (?). At least the dealer covered that one. Still less than 100,000km and the sidemarkers are falling off and the front corner lights are full of condensation. The "ultimate" driving experience doesn't even include cruise. A simple oil change costs $100+ at the dealer. It eats gas. I hate the thing.

OTOH, my 96 Accord has 350,000 km and is all original except for the usual consumables and runs pretty much as new. Oil change costs $28.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

jef said:


> The Prius is rated as a SULEV:
> Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) is a U.S. classification for conventionally powered or gasoline-electric hybrid vehicle designed to produce minimal emissions of certain categories of air pollution at their point of use, typically 90% less than that of an equivalent ordinary full gasoline vehicle for the controlled pollution categories.
> 
> 90% less = 10% of a regular car.


BTW, isn't the Prius rated PZEV? Well it's Tier 2 Bin 3 for sure.

The Subaru Legacy PZEV Edition and it's not a hybrid. PZEV meets SULEV emissions in addition to emitting zero evaporative emissions. 

I'm not disputing your claims but I hope you don't get smug about that rating... burning 1L of gas will emit a certain amount of CO2. You may be emitting less pollutants overall but your greenhouse gas contribution is still up there is what I'm saying.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

rgray said:


> I hope you enjoy your new BM. Our 3 series is a disaster. With less that 100,000km the trans lost all drive and spewed its fluid all over the laneway - $5000 and three weeks to get a used unit put in, no help from BM. It has already needed brake work (of course at BMW premium prices). Then the stereo overheated so badly it smelled like fire - it was only because I was gearhead enough to know to pull the fuses and how to figure which ones to pull that saved us from losing the whole car. Three "toasted" stereos later the dealer figured out there was a short in the door (?). At least the dealer covered that one. Still less than 100,000km and the sidemarkers are falling off and the front corner lights are full of condensation. The "ultimate" driving experience doesn't even include cruise. A simple oil change costs $100+ at the dealer. It eats gas. I hate the thing.
> 
> OTOH, my 96 Accord has 350,000 km and is all original except for the usual consumables and runs pretty much as new. Oil change costs $28.


Yep, pretty much sums it up. Ultimate driving machine my a$$.


----------



## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

rgray said:


> I hope you enjoy your new BM. Our 3 series is a disaster. With less that 100,000km the trans lost all drive and spewed its fluid all over the laneway - $5000 and three weeks to get a used unit put in, no help from BM. It has already needed brake work (of course at BMW premium prices). Then the stereo overheated so badly it smelled like fire - it was only because I was gearhead enough to know to pull the fuses and how to figure which ones to pull that saved us from losing the whole car. Three "toasted" stereos later the dealer figured out there was a short in the door (?). At least the dealer covered that one. Still less than 100,000km and the sidemarkers are falling off and the front corner lights are full of condensation. The "ultimate" driving experience doesn't even include cruise. A simple oil change costs $100+ at the dealer. It eats gas. I hate the thing.
> 
> OTOH, my 96 Accord has 350,000 km and is all original except for the usual consumables and runs pretty much as new. Oil change costs $28.


Luxury cars are kind of like Macs. You pay a premium. I've had 2 defective Macs in a row since "converting" in 2007, bad luck I guess. No problems with pc's in the many years prior. But I still continue to buy Apple; I just like using them. Same could be said for a luxury German car.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

chasMac said:


> Luxury cars are kind of like Macs. You pay a premium. I've had 2 defective Macs in a row since "converting" in 2007, bad luck I guess. No problems with pc's in the many years prior. But I still continue to buy Apple; I just like using them. Same could be said for a luxury German car.


Difference is that Apple likely repaired or replaced both machines free. Try that with the ultimate driving machine.


----------



## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

SINC said:


> Difference is that Apple likely repaired or replaced both machines free. Try that with the ultimate driving machine.


Well, Apple didn't replace the machine, they fixed it free of charge in both cases. Every car I've ever bought has come with service plans which I can extend to say 7 years for a little extra. I've never paid for a car repair in my life (and I've had your average amount of issues with them).


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Fact remains as rgray pointed out that Beemers are so very expensive to have repair work done, not to mention the "normal" service work raping the owners who can afford them.


----------



## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

SINC said:


> Fact remains as rgray pointed out that Beemers are so very expensive to have repair work done, not to mention the "normal" service work raping the owners who can afford them.


Let me be honest here: I have a BMW and a Honda (something of a Honda fanboy). Thing is, whenever there is an issue, I take the vehicle in and it gets fixed, I've never been gouged by either of them, it's all free. Both have there problems over time, none more so than the other. rgray has related one owner's experience, I am relating another.


----------



## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

> At $70 to $80/week to drive an SUV (my neighbour pays that much), it doesn't take long to get money back - plus the resale value of the Prius is one of the highest. It does make sense financially.
> 
> I don't know what driving pattern you mean. Even on the highway, the fuel consumption is better than all cars and tied with a VW diesel. But should be all about emissions anyway...


Lets be fair though comparing an SUV vs a small econobox isn't fair regardless of what system it uses. A Hybrid Escape gets 45 MPG vs what mid 20's for a MazdaSpeed 3 so it can go both ways if you want to.

Lets look at a real world example though...

2010 Prius 
Gas Mileage of 2010 Toyota Prius

2010 Fit
Gas Mileage of 2010 Honda Fit

Using that site it costs on average $1250 vs $774 for the Prius per year to operate for most people...(debatable about what average really is but lets roll with that for now). So over 5 years you've saved $2380...but paid $15,000 for a base Fit and almost $28,000 for the Prius. 

There's plenty of reasons to choose a hybrid but cost isn't one of them.


----------



## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

Tyrant? Zealotry? Communist???

We are talking about cars, let's not get carried away! I'm loving the discourse here though, and i'm learning quite a bit. Too often people make big decisions based on word of mouth, brand recognition etc. It's great to see a lot of people who are smart enough to do enough research when making a large purchase such as a car.


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

jef said:


> I would argue that a BMW in 2010 has a huge premium - you pay a fortune for the badge & the status appeal that comes with it. And there is no payback: only depreciation.
> 
> I did love my BMW 2002Ti back in the days when they were ahead of the engineering curve with extremely efficient 4 cylinder cars that could keep up with the Detroit muscle at a fraction of the mpg.


Sorry, what's changed today? BMW is still ahead of the engineering curve, with technologies ranging from EfficientDynamics to their excellent M-DKG gearbox with DriveLogic. And what's changed with Detroit muscle? BMW six-cylinder engines still produce far more hp per litre than equivalent American or Japanese engines. How can BMW squeeze over 320 hp (also, BMW always states their figures to the rear wheels, factoring in energy loss in the drivetrain, unlike other manufacturers) out of a 3.0 litre engine (the N54B30, if you wish to look it up), and produce a car that can go 0-100 km/h in 5.0 seconds (135i, again if you wish to do some research), when GM, Ford and others struggle to achieve that performance with a V8? Oh, and I did I mention that BMW can do it at a fraction of the fuel consumption and emissions?

I test-drove a 2000 BMW 323i the other day, a car that you can pick up in good nick for about $9000. That's almost an *eleven* year old car for close to $10k! The car was about $40k new, giving it a residual value of 25% after 11 years. I can name quite a few American cars that would _love_ to get residuals that high after _three_ years.

And to make the argument all the sweeter, the car still gets 7.5 l/100km on the highway at 120 km/h. And it will overtake a Prius in a straight line every time, and run circles around it in the corners. It has six airbags, dynamic stability control, active head restraints, and a transmission that automatically adapts to your driving style (among other things). Did I mention it's eleven years old? Suddenly, Prius owners appear to have the snobbish attitude. Nothing personal, jef, just trying to make a point.



SINC said:


> Fact remains as rgray pointed out that Beemers are so very expensive to have repair work done, not to mention the "normal" service work raping the owners who can afford them.


SINC, there once was truth to this statement, but having had two BMWs in the family, and worked with dozens more, there is a lot of misinformation out there. BMWs are expensive to repair _if you go to a BMW dealership_. As I mentioned in a previous post, the dealer overheads are nicely covered by $160/hr technician service charges, and so-called preventative maintenance. The typical BMW buyer is affluent, and these dealers are in business to make money.

That said, there are a million independent mechanics that will work for half of that cost. Unless you have a 7-series, Z4, M5/M6, or something beyond the knowledge of your nearest German-car mechanic, there's nothing complicated about the typical 3-series or 5-series. Especially for E46 and early E90s, the parts are readily available in North America, and I can't think of many parts that would be pricier than Japanese counterparts. 

And maintenance? The only thing you really _need_ to do with a BMW is oil changes. If you do them every 15k (instead of BMWs recommendation of 25k, which is part of the reason leased BMWs have higher incidents of repair), the rest is pretty good. Brakes can last up to four years, depending on your driving style. Overall life-time maintenance costs are on average cheaper with a BMW 3-series than the Audi A4, Acura TSX, and Cadillac CTS. I'm not sure of rgray's circumstances, but I would certainly say it isn't the norm for 3-series, which is the car this thread is about, after all.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

,


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

That makes more sense. The numbers you posted originally didn't look quite right for a 2011 certified series car from a BMW lot. 

If you are looking for features, and a payment around $500, I would suggest looking at 2007 or 2008 certified series cars (328i), or perhaps find an independent leasing company (I know a contact at Addison Leasing if you need one) to purchase a car from a dealer at wholesale cost. Again, that's assuming you are alright with the idea of looking at used cars. Remember, Certified Series cars _exist outside BMW dealerships_.

You will get screwed if you walk in to a new car dealership (BMW or otherwise) and try to finance, unless you know the car business well enough to out-negotiate the price. The 2011 you were mentioning is probably worth about $29000 wholesale, so that $9000 balloon payment at the end coincidentally is their profit on the car.


----------



## jef (Dec 9, 2007)

AppleAuthority said:


> Sorry, what's changed today? BMW is still ahead of the engineering curve, with technologies ranging from EfficientDynamics to their excellent M-DKG gearbox with DriveLogic. And what's changed with Detroit muscle? BMW six-cylinder engines still produce far more hp per litre than equivalent American or Japanese engines. How can BMW squeeze over 320 hp (also, BMW always states their figures to the rear wheels, factoring in energy loss in the drivetrain, unlike other manufacturers) out of a 3.0 litre engine (the N54B30, if you wish to look it up), and produce a car that can go 0-100 km/h in 5.0 seconds (135i, again if you wish to do some research), when GM, Ford and others struggle to achieve that performance with a V8? Oh, and I did I mention that BMW can do it at a fraction of the fuel consumption and emissions?
> 
> I test-drove a 2000 BMW 323i the other day, a car that you can pick up in good nick for about $9000. That's almost an *eleven* year old car for close to $10k! The car was about $40k new, giving it a residual value of 25% after 11 years. I can name quite a few American cars that would _love_ to get residuals that high after _three_ years.
> 
> ...


I think (my opinion, Screature - I'm not forcing you to agree) your perspective shows that marketing has had a much bigger impact on car buyers decisions rather than anything related to reality. If you do use the power as advertised in cars today, you'll be arrested - or kill/injure yourself, or your teenage kid trying to impress his friends, or someone else. It happens every day. Even the 120kph you mention above is technically illegal in Canada although most cars on the road today are capable of much higher speeds. Why do we spend so much for something we will never use or should never use? Where is the logic in that? (yes - a certain amount of acceleration is necessary for safety - but we now have on the road now is way beyond what is reasonable at the speeds we drive).

My 18 year old son has seen 2 of his school friends buy fast cars and crash them within a couple of months of purchase. I lost 4 friends in high school to high speed crashes in their parent's fast cars. What message are we sending to kids when adults are buying 320hp cars because they go from 0 to 100 in 5.0 seconds? Why can't engineering and, more importantly, marketing, focus on keeping people alive, using less oil and keeping the air cleaner? (yes - cars are safer today but no safety measures can help if the cars are actually doing the speeds they are capable of)

Oh - my 2001 Prius was $24,000 new - its resale value today is between $7,000 & $9,000 and its emissions are still only a fraction of an 11 year old 3-series... but it doesn't go as fast - and I'm very happy about that because it does go fast enough!


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

jef said:


> I think (my opinion, Screature - I'm not forcing you to agree) your perspective shows that marketing has had a much bigger impact on car buyers decisions rather than anything related to reality.


Insinuating that someone with different needs than yours is swayed by marketing is simply arrogant and insulting; how is that not forcing your opinion? Believing you'll get the fuel economy that the Prius advertises in all driving patterns is being swayed by marketing as well.


> If you do use the power as advertised in cars today, you'll be arrested - or kill/injure yourself, or your teenage kid trying to impress his friends, or someone else. It happens every day.


You are equating power to "drive as fast as you can." Acceleration speed is very important, not the top speed, especially for driving in busy traffic. And if a car is capable of a higher speed, it often means it runs better in legal speeds.


> Even the 120kph you mention above is technically illegal in Canada although most cars on the road today are capable of much higher speeds.


And yet, people have been pulled over for driving 100 in the left lane on the 401 for impeding the flow of traffic. While technically illegal, driving 120kph is sometimes necessary, not just for efficiency, but for safety. Anyone who has spent time driving the 401 amongst a pack of 40+' trucks will agree with me that sometimes you have to exceed the speed limit and acceleration is very important.


> Why do we spend so much for something we will never use or should never use? Where is the logic in that? (yes - a certain amount of acceleration is necessary for safety - but we now have on the road now is way beyond what is reasonable at the speeds we drive).


There have been times when I got out of a jam with my Accord (V6) that wouldn't have been possible with a small car or a Prius. I think that's the point for most people to buy a more powerful car. Most aren't out to drive 200+ kph.


> My 18 year old son has seen 2 of his school friends buy fast cars and crash them within a couple of months of purchase. I lost 4 friends in high school to high speed crashes in their parent's fast cars. What message are we sending to kids when adults are buying 320hp cars because they go from 0 to 100 in 5.0 seconds? Why can't engineering and, more importantly, marketing, focus on keeping people alive, using less oil and keeping the air cleaner? (yes - cars are safer today but no safety measures can help if the cars are actually doing the speeds they are capable of)


Red herring. A teenager can easily kill himself in a Prius too. Nobody said we should buy powerful cars for children.

Engineering is making cars safer, using less oil, and keeping the air cleaner. But it's a waste to point in pushing beyond what people will buy. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for promoting more efficient use of vehicles, but there's a fine line between promotion and pushing an agenda.


> Oh - my 2001 Prius was $24,000 new - its resale value today is between $7,000 & $9,000 and its emissions are still only a fraction of an 11 year old 3-series... but it doesn't go as fast - and I'm very happy about that because it does go fast enough!


A quick search on auto trader and you'll see a BMW 3 can go anywhere from 10 - 20K, but that's not really relevant.

The point is not that you shouldn't buy your car, the point is your car doesn't meet everyone's needs, and you shouldn't claim that someone is falling for marketing because they have different needs than you. To lecture someone because your car has less emissions or uses less gas is moral relativism at its finest. Why don't you drive a Smart Car? Or ride a bicycle? Those are even better options than your Prius. Cheaper too.


----------



## hhk (May 31, 2006)

jef:

You are somehow mistaking slow with safe. Any teenage kid can kill himself in any car, regardless of horsepower or 0-60 ratings. My first car was a 70hp, 1972 Volkswagen 412. Rear motor, absolutely nothing in the front. It couldn't get out of its own way. 0-60 was something like 14 seconds. But that didn't stop me from learning advanced stunt driving moves. I could turn that thing around in a phone booth with a j-turn (drive in reverse as fast as you can, hit the brake and swing the front of the car around).

Clearly some people enjoy driving and working on cars beyond calculating L/100km and bragging about zero emissions. We enjoy the engineering, the handling, the aesthetics.

Your utilitarian argument can be applied to everything in life. 

Why can't we just eat the basic nutritional ingredients of a healthy diet instead of chowing down on a ribeye?

Why can't we just procreate with a genetically suitable and healthy mate? What's this "love" nonsense?

Why don't we live in pre-fab concrete boxes that are stacked in energy efficient arrays?

I think there's a word for this - Killjoy.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

spiffychristian said:


> so 29,000 + 9,000 = 38,000 + 13% tax = about $45,000 or so.
> 
> he did not mention that the Certified *pre owned* would cost me the same as a new car.


That's too bad. So much for adage "a car loses thousands in value as soon as you drive it off the lot."


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Andrew Pratt said:


> Lets be fair though comparing an SUV vs a small econobox isn't fair regardless of what system it uses. A Hybrid Escape gets 45 MPG vs what mid 20's for a MazdaSpeed 3 so it can go both ways if you want to.
> 
> Using that site it costs on average $1250 vs $774 for the Prius per year to operate for most people...(debatable about what average really is but lets roll with that for now). So over 5 years you've saved $2380...but paid $15,000 for a base Fit and almost $28,000 for the Prius.
> 
> There's plenty of reasons to choose a hybrid but cost isn't one of them.


You're comparing an econombox with rollup windows with a loaded midsize car. A more fair comparison would be a base Honda Insight with a top of the line Honda Fit. 



hayesk said:


> Insinuating that someone with different needs than yours is swayed by marketing is simply arrogant and insulting; how is that not forcing your opinion? Believing you'll get the fuel economy that the Prius advertises in all driving patterns is being swayed by marketing as well.


With the right driving habits you can indeed get 3.8L/100km in the Prius in the city. 



hayesk said:


> There have been times when I got out of a jam with my Accord (V6) that wouldn't have been possible with a small car or a Prius. I think that's the point for most people to buy a more powerful car. Most aren't out to drive 200+ kph.


My 1900lb 76HP Civic certainly never felt inadequate getting out of jams on the freeway, just knock it down to 3rd or 2nd gear and let er rip. Same with my 3450lb Mazda 5 with a 4 cyl 153HP engine. Maybe with an automatic transmission I wouldn't be able to say the same thing. 



jef said:


> My 18 year old son has seen 2 of his school friends buy fast cars and crash them within a couple of months of purchase. I lost 4 friends in high school to high speed crashes in their parent's fast cars. What message are we sending to kids when adults are buying 320hp cars because they go from 0 to 100 in 5.0 seconds? Why can't engineering and, more importantly, marketing, focus on keeping people alive, using less oil and keeping the air cleaner? (yes - cars are safer today but no safety measures can help if the cars are actually doing the speeds they are capable of)
> 
> Oh - my 2001 Prius was $24,000 new - its resale value today is between $7,000 & $9,000 and its emissions are still only a fraction of an 11 year old 3-series... but it doesn't go as fast - and I'm very happy about that because it does go fast enough!


As hayesk said, kids can kill themselves no matter how many HP is under the hood. It's just a peril of being a new driver, you're too inexperienced to know how and know any better.

As I said I don't drive to work... I hate the stress and I want to do my part to reduce my commuting carbon footprint by 20%. However there is nothing more stress relieving than driving on a wide open mountain road, rowing gears, hugging corners. There are a lot of cars out there that are for people who no longer enjoy driving and the Prius is certainly one of them. BMWs and Mazdas are for drivers who love to drive.


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

dona83 said:


> There are a lot of cars out there that are for people who no longer enjoy driving and the Prius is certainly one of them. BMWs and Mazdas are for drivers who love to drive.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

The OP wants a BMW. He wants one for a reason. The Prius really shouldn't even be a topic of discussion here, perhaps more suitable to its own thread.


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

So - did the OP go with white?


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Couple of observations. If someone can afford a BMW they can afford to pay for the repairs if someone slides into them in icy conditions then drives off. They can also afford the insurance hit.

The brakes on BMWs are excellent but also expensive to maintain. Again if you can afford the car...

A $9000 buyout of a $40000 car, after four years is big time depreciation. Seriously a four year old $20,000 Toyota will probably sell for at least $9000. 

Finally anyone that seriously believes that a BMW, Mercedes or what have you is the only car for them will also need a house with a garage protruding from the front like a massive erection. The message that this kind of car is designed to deliver is: "My car is the most important thing in my life". The garage must deliver the same message.beejacon


----------



## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

spiffychristian said:


> okay, so i have horrible news. i didn't buy a 3 series today.
> 
> what the salesman told me were these exact words:
> 
> ...





Lars said:


> So - did the OP go with white?


I think the OP went with "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

dona83 said:


> You're comparing an econombox with rollup windows with a loaded midsize car. A more fair comparison would be a base Honda Insight with a top of the line Honda Fit.


Rumor has it Honda will release a Hybrid Fit next year - that would be a good comparison. Or compare a Civic EX with a Civic Hybrid since they are similarly equipped.


> With the right driving habits you can indeed get 3.8L/100km in the Prius in the city.


Yes, but stress the "with the right driving habits" part. If you don't match those driving habits, you can't get that economy. Now, that's the same for any car, but the advantage of a hybrid diminishes greatly with the wrong driving habits. From what I have read, my drive to work is not one of those "right driving habits." I have several minute-long runs at 70 - 90, then a stop sign, then repeat. It's too fast and long (and variable-speed) to run entirely on electric, but each segment is too short to maintain the momentum of highway driving.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

hayesk said:


> Yes, but stress the "with the right driving habits" part. If you don't match those driving habits, you can't get that economy. Now, that's the same for any car, but the advantage of a hybrid diminishes greatly with the wrong driving habits. From what I have read, my drive to work is not one of those "right driving habits." I have several minute-long runs at 70 - 90, then a stop sign, then repeat. It's too fast and long (and variable-speed) to run entirely on electric, but each segment is too short to maintain the momentum of highway driving.


My boss has a Highlander Hybrid and he finds that he gets the best fuel economy doing brisk accelerations. Brisk as in not slow, brisk as in no tires peeled. Just regular everyday brisk acceleration. Stops are best when planned. Aggressive drivers will get horrible fuel economy on hybrids but those who can tell what a stale green light looks like and puts their foot off the gas to regenerate energy will get the best fuel economy. Basically if you allow the batteries to recharge while you're stopping and reusing that power to accelerate, you will get the best economy. You cannot beat a hybrid in stop and go fuel economy. And with the fuel economy gauge right on the dash, I think it makes drivers very aware of their fuel consumption habits. I've been meaning to get a Scanguage II for my Mazda 5 for the longest time to track instantaneous and trip fuel mileage.


----------



## hhk (May 31, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> Couple of observations. If someone can afford a BMW they can afford to pay for the repairs if someone slides into them in icy conditions then drives off. They can also afford the insurance hit.
> 
> The brakes on BMWs are excellent but also expensive to maintain. Again if you can afford the car...
> 
> ...


I don't get this "if you can afford a BMW..." stuff. It's a misconception that is not even remotely based on fact.

I have owned two BMWs in my life. A 1988 325iX that I bought in 1999 for $10,000 and sold in 2008 for $6,000. I now drive a 2005 320i that I paid $20,000 for in '08 and is now worth, on a good day, $10k.

Similarly, the BMW club is full of guys of modest means who love driving a well engineered car with a sporting pedigree. I know few BMW guys who think their car is some kind of message. In fact, I would think this sort of attitude is more common amoung Prius owners.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

dona83 said:


> My boss has a Highlander Hybrid...


Isn't a Highlander Hybrid a bit of an oxymoron in terms of concept? Take a gas guzzling SUV and make it a hybrid....? Just seems like a silly marketing ploy to me... what's next a hybrid Hummer? Just seems like a feeble attempt at justifying a bad vehicle type choice in the first place.


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

hhk said:


> I now drive a 2005 320i that I paid $20,000 for in '08 and is now worth, on a good day, $10k.


Actually have you looked at the prices of E46s lately? It seems almost as if they appreciated $2000 over the summer. I know 2005 325i are going for $15k across the road. 

And second that on the community. Look at forums such as maXbimmer - Canada's Largest BMW Forum and you'll find some good similarities with ehMac.ca, but for BMWs owners of all shapes, sizes, and socio-economic status.


----------



## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

spiffychristian said:


> LMAO. sure did.
> 
> I will be getting a white BMW eventually. In the next two weeks I will be looking at some more. And some CPO 2007-2010s I will be looking at as suggested.
> 
> ...


When I first got my Toyota, a neighbor had a new BMW convertible. Over the winter, my Toyota just started and ran every day - the BMW convertible was in the shop a lot, sometimes for weeks. She finally traded it off on a BMW sedan, which turned out to be a bit more reliable, but still not anywhere near as good as my Toyota.

Maybe, as a Toyota owner, I miss out on the excitement of owning a "luxurious" car. However, getting where I want to go on a consistent and reliable basis must count as some sort of luxury.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

screature said:


> Isn't a Highlander Hybrid a bit of an oxymoron in terms of concept? Take a gas guzzling SUV and make it a hybrid....? Just seems like a silly marketing ploy to me... what's next a hybrid Hummer? Just seems like a feeble attempt at justifying a bad vehicle type choice in the first place.


The Highlander does get better city gas mileage than a lot of gasoline compacts and is probably the most fuel efficient 7 seater available.

One of the greatest advantages of not driving to work is that fuel efficiency and reliability while still important, drops down as a driving factor to what I buy.  I miss my Corolla's fuel efficiency but the Mazda 5 is much more enjoyable car to drive and it's also a lot more practical as well. My 1990 Celica is not as practical but also very fun to just toss around. Toyota just doesn't make cars like they used to.


----------



## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

CPO models are a much better value. Low KMs, extended warranty and someone else took the hit in depreciation. 

All service is included with the factory warranty, and it comes with the extra 2yrs/80K warranty.

You could get a 335i coupe like I did for much less than the 2011 323i you were looking at 

Amazing car to drive. I've really enjoyed it.

There's a bunch of great ones out here in Oakville, if you're in the GTA.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

spiffychristian said:


> the 335i coupes are beautiful, but it's not super practical for me, which is unfortunate, because they have nicer tail lights. what year is yours?
> 
> i'm going to look at more pre-owned models (2007-2008 is the oldest i'd go) i'd need a sedan, too.
> 
> ...




Mine is a 2007. Got it with about 40,000KM on it. The 335 sedan is great too. For the money, you can get a 328 or 335 - both of which have the options you're looking for (power-everything) and good performance as well. 

I did the balloon payment at the end, as it lowers my monthly payment, and I'll likely be in a position to buy out the loan before maturity anyway. Was a good way to keep it in check in the interim.

In talking to my salesperson, the maximum balloon payment is still less than the car is worth at the end, so should you choose to sell it privately before the balloon payment, you'll still walk away ahead if you have reasonable mileage on the car. It's structured like a lease, but you own it.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Jeepdude said:


> In talking to my salesperson, the maximum balloon payment is still less than the car is worth at the end, so should you choose to sell it privately before the balloon payment, you'll still walk away ahead if you have reasonable mileage on the car. It's structured like a lease, but you own it.


I always stay clear of balloon loans. I don't know about yours (it may be worth it for you), but I've noticed from most dealers that they hook you with low monthly payments but combine those with the balloon payment at the end, and you end up paying too much for the car.

Also, if I planned to keep the car past your loan, then why would I expect to have the balloon payment at the end of the loan, but yet I can't afford the monthly payments of traditional financing. Where will I get that money from?

If I plan to sell the car, what happens if the car is in an accident - the car just depreciated by a huge amount - will it be worth more than the balloon payment at the end?


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Gerbill said:


> When I first got my Toyota, a neighbor had a new BMW convertible. Over the winter, my Toyota just started and ran every day - the BMW convertible was in the shop a lot, sometimes for weeks. She finally traded it off on a BMW sedan, which turned out to be a bit more reliable, but still not anywhere near as good as my Toyota.
> 
> Maybe, as a Toyota owner, I miss out on the excitement of owning a "luxurious" car. However, getting where I want to go on a consistent and reliable basis must count as some sort of luxury.


Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron. My Honda Accord, also known for quality, broke down on the way home from the airport this summer. The transmission completely failed - it was like trying to drive in neutral. But I still don't dispute that Honda makes reliable cars.

It's best to look at statistics (and not the meaningless "initial quality" stat). Now I don't disagree that Honda or Toyota are at the top of the heap in terms of quality, but you have to balance the value of luxury vs. reliability. Why was your neighbour's BMW always in the shop? Mechanical problem, or a knob on the radio fell off? All of these factors must be considered.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

spiffychristian said:


> it sounds like you know what you're doing, lol. which is good help for me.
> 
> the only reason i'm hesitant to get one more than around 3 years old (thats why the cpo 2011s were so attractive - great warranty and the like and basically new) is because i would like to keep this 10+ years. for the amout of time i would have it do you
> 
> ...


Almost every car sold today should last at least 12 years. Assuming you maintain it properly and keep it under 25,000 KMs/year. That said maintenance will get more expensive as a vehicle ages. You can reasonably expect the last couple of years to see major work on the front end, belts and hoses, wheel bearings and even engine mounts. Even with the high cost of parts and labour on a BMW it would should hardly be a wallet buster as compared to $500/month payments. As to the tin lasting, depends more on how much salt they lay down on your roads combined with how much winter driving you do.

Obviously only you can determine if the premium you pay for any particular luxury/status/performance car is worth it.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Yah what's up with that, everytime I see a new 3 series coupe it doesn't click in my head that it's a 3 series.

Plus yah if you're planning to get the automatic transmission, don't consider the 323, it's not that the 2.5 is anemic but the Germans aren't known for good automatic transmissions and the 2.5 somehow gets the life sucked out of it. The extra power in the 3.0 definitely makes up for the transmission (esp the 335, 300 something horses you know you want it). I hope you're considering the manual transmission with whatever model you end up getting anyway, just makes the BMW driving experience so much better.


----------



## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

hayesk said:


> Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron. My Honda Accord, also known for quality, broke down on the way home from the airport this summer. The transmission completely failed - it was like trying to drive in neutral. But I still don't dispute that Honda makes reliable cars.
> 
> It's best to look at statistics (and not the meaningless "initial quality" stat). Now I don't disagree that Honda or Toyota are at the top of the heap in terms of quality, but you have to balance the value of luxury vs. reliability. Why was your neighbour's BMW always in the shop? Mechanical problem, or a knob on the radio fell off? All of these factors must be considered.


Try TrueDelta Car Reliability and Gas Mileage Information 

Look up reliability statistics for BMW 3 series and Toyota Yaris.These listings are based on reports by owners of the cars. Anecdotal too, I suppose, but based on quite a few data points.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

*Beamer Drivers 'Rudest'*

Britain's angriest motorists drive BMWs, poll reveals | The Sun |Motors


> BRITAIN'S angriest motorists drive BMWs, a poll revealed yesterday.
> 
> They are more likely to tailgate, make offensive gestures and break speed limits than any other road users, the survey found.
> 
> More than half of 3,000 drivers questioned said they had suffered a bad experience at the hands of a Beamer user........


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

rgray said:


> Britain's angriest motorists drive BMWs, poll reveals | The Sun |Motors


Can't say I've noticed that. Around here the rudest drivers tend to drive the biggest pick-ups.beejacon


----------



## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

This poll is likely as reliable as the "anecdotal feedback" in this thread.


----------



## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

I'd never own a BMW, simply because either the drivers can't/won't disable their anti-theft alarm when on the ferry, which causes headaches for anyone around them.

Invariably every time I take the ferry the announcement comes over the intercom "Would the owner of the silver* BMW please return to your vehicle. The alarm is sounding."

The motion of the ship sets off the alarms. There is a pre-boarding announcement that advises this.

Expecting pirates are we?



*nine times out of ten it's silver. It's _always_ a BMW.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

A nearby train can have the same effect. A pedestrian that loses his balance and leans against the car for support will do the trick as well.


----------



## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

There was a Porsche in the parking lot I used to use at University some years ago that had one of these alarms. It became a sport for students to kick a tyre going by to set off the alarm and this was a high pedestrian traffic area. Eventually one cold winter day the alarm had been triggered so often that there was not enough battery left to start the car at the end of the day. Apparently lesson was learned as the alarm was disarmed there after.


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

rgray said:


> Britain's angriest motorists drive BMWs, poll reveals | The Sun |Motors


In Britain, the 3-series has been one of the country's best-selling cars since 2003, trading positions as high as fifth place depending which statistics you prefer (sometimes ahead of the Ford Mondeo, the most popular family sedan in the UK, and the European equivalent to the Ford Fusion). 

My point being, it's pretty hard _not_ to eventually run into an "aggressive" driver behind the wheel of a BMW in the UK, given the chances of being near one are so high.


----------



## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> A nearby train can have the same effect. A pedestrian that loses his balance and leans against the car for support will do the trick as well.


The point being that they're TOLD the motion of the ship will set off the car alarms, but still they set them.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

MLeh said:


> The point being that they're TOLD the motion of the ship will set off the car alarms, but still they set them.


So what you are saying is; "You can't tell a BMW driver nothin' "

Seriously after the third train you would think they would get the message as well.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

MLeh said:


> I'd never own a BMW, simply because either the drivers can't/won't disable their anti-theft alarm when on the ferry, which causes headaches for anyone around them.


I don't understand people who won't buy things because they don't like other people that own those things.

It's like people who say "I won't buy a Mac because I hate the Mac fanboys." Huh? Buy whatever suits your needs.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> Can't say I've noticed that. Around here the rudest drivers tend to drive the biggest pick-ups.beejacon


Dodge drivers in general, particularly the ones who drive Chargers, Avengers, Magnums, and Rams, oh and the Chrysler 300.


----------



## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

hayesk said:


> I don't understand people who won't buy things because they don't like other people that own those things.
> 
> It's like people who say "I won't buy a Mac because I hate the Mac fanboys." Huh? Buy whatever suits your needs.


It has nothing to do with 'not liking other people who own those things'. I make decisions based upon what is best for me, not based upon what is going to impress others or because I don't like the 'type of people who own those things'. 

I take the ferry quite often. I wouldn't want to have to return to my vehicle on every trip just because:

1) it is impossible to turn off the alarm on the BMW (I don't know, is it? If it is ... then ... they're idiots)
or
2) the announcement is usually general enough in nature that I'd feel compelled to check and make sure it wasn't _my_ BWM disturbing others.


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

MLeh said:


> The point being that they're TOLD the motion of the ship will set off the car alarms, but still they set them.


I don't know how it works with BMW's, but on my Mazda3, the alarm is set automatically when the doors are locked via the key fob - there is no option to _not_ set the alarm unless you manually locked the doors, and even then I'm not sure if the alarm is disabled. Just a thought.

The problem with BMW's especially is that they have a Shock Sensor Alarm, which I think is pretty lame, and often useless. All it's good for is setting off the offensively loud alarm under every little vibration. The shock sensor in some vehicles can be adjusted, sensitivity wise, and some owners jack it way up thinking it'll help keep their baby better protected - which is a false misconception.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Car alarms and crying wolf: one and the same.


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

Wow ... what a huge off-topic conversation this has been LOL.

I drive a 7-series E38 (1999 740i w/ the sport package). It does 0-100km in approx 6 seconds, is around 300hp and is a V8. Do I drive it like a maniac? No. Is it a gas hog? If you drive it like a maniac, yes, but if you drive it reasonably, it's really no worse than my previous V6 vehicle was.

I am not a car snob, but I do appreciate the engineering and performance of this car .. much in the same way I appreciate the performance and engineering of Apple hardware and OSX. Yes I could drive a much more affordable japanese car, and I could also run a sub $300 Asus netbook and "get the job done," -- but I don't do either.

It's a wonderful driving experience .. the nicest car to cruise in I've ever had the pleasure of driving (and driving it is a pleasure), which is why I own it. As for repairs they are not really much more expensive than any modern vehicle if you go to the right place. I use Bimmersport in Mississauga and they are fantastic (which I found through the maxbimmer forum). I am also a member on maxbimmer that a previous poster mentioned that forum and he's right, it is much like ehmac in that it's a tight community that is very helpful. For example my wife had some problems while on a trip in montreal with our 7 series -- the alternator went kaboom on-route ... and before anyone complains .. that stuff happens on a 12 year old vehicle so get over it. A quick post on the forum and I got tons of user response within the hour. I found a great shop to repair it for a reasonable price that was close to where my wife was staying, I pre-arranged the repair, spoke with the person at the shop, got it diagnosed, and the parts ordered and replaced before she had to return home and with no intervention on her part aside from dropping the vehicle at the shop and picking it up the next day -- which is great as she's not a car person at all.


Lots of myths in this thread from the non BMW savvy ...

*Oil Changes*: The poster is correct, they are not cheap but you get what you pay for. Yes you can do a $28 oil change on your japanese import ... but you can also put in top notch synthetic oil and a high quality oil filter -- which is exactly what you get with your BMW oil change. The price is the same for quality regardless of the brand .. the only difference is that with the premium vehicle you get the premium oil and filters, you don't get the choice to put in the cheap stuff, which at the end of the day is a good thing for your vehicle.

*Repair costs*: Good parts cost more than cheap crap, that's just the way it is. For the most part BMW's are built with good parts so you pay a bit more for them. There are places to save money on them (lots of OEM solutions) if you choose to do so, but choose wisely. Personally I'd rather spend a bit more on a good part than using a cheap one and having to replace it again (and again). Also as someone else said ... dealerships repairs are expensive ... no matter what brand you're talking about. Once you're vehicle is past warranty find yourself a good affordable shop that does good work. No difference here just because it's BMW aside from the fact that you will have to find a shop that's got skilled labour available (instead of joe the mechanic who charges nothing for his crappy work).

*BMW drivers are snobs or more aggressive than other vehicle drivers*: Total crap. Yes there are bad BMW drivers, but there are bad drivers of ALL makes and brands out there. If you really want to stereotype you can swap out BMW in that statement for just about any other popular car brand, including other sporty vehicles, hybrids or whatever.

Lastly, as I stated previously ... I enjoy things that are well engineered and built and a pleasure to use. I use Apple products because of this and I drive a BMW for the same reason. If that makes me a snob, so be it -- but I don't look down on other people's choice of vehicles, computers, or whatever, which is what I think is paramount to snobbery. Do what you will, but don't tell me what to do (or you are in fact then the snob). I make my own educated choices and am typically happy with them because I took the time to do the research and don't just jump on something, especially as big and expensive as a vehicle, because it's a "good deal" (i.e. cheap) or someone said it was good


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

Lars said:


> I don't know how it works with BMW's, but on my Mazda3, the alarm is set automatically when the doors are locked via the key fob - there is no option to _not_ set the alarm unless you manually locked the doors, and even then I'm not sure if the alarm is disabled. Just a thought.


From what I remember, you could always disable the alarm in the BMW simply by holding the two buttons on the remote fob, or entering a certain sequence. I don't know for sure, but I doubt the new models (which some include the alarm as standard equipment, and some do not) are missing this feature.


----------



## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I started doing my own oil changes... OE filters and synthetic oil.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

MLeh said:


> 1) it is impossible to turn off the alarm on the BMW (I don't know, is it? If it is ... then ... they're idiots)
> or
> 2) the announcement is usually general enough in nature that I'd feel compelled to check and make sure it wasn't _my_ BWM disturbing others.


Fair enough. Although, as it has been pointed out, you can disable the alarm. So if I did that, I would not return to my car thinking it was mine.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

With current interest rates as low as they are, you should look carefully into the various financing deals. Leasing sounds good but unless you have a business and can write-off part of the payments, it just puts you into the position of replacing a perfectly good vehicle every 3 or 4 years (or paying a residual on an "old" car). The stealerships often ding you with exaggerated repair costs to bring the off-lease vehicle back to "showroom" quality. A car is a poor investment for most people no matter how you look at it as it’s a depreciating asset, but if it is essential (in that you rely upon a personal vehicle), you should probably own it.

For the OP, BMW seem to be really pushing the 323i "luxury" edition as judged by the blanket adverts. If you really want a new car, then wait till January or February when the dealerships are quiet and still trying to move their 2010 cars. If you are not too worried about the options, then you can often make good deals for a car on the lot. If you order from the factory (~two month wait), you'll get it exactly as you wanted but will get less of a discount. If you like manual transmissions, that will save ~2K (the 6 speed manual in the 3 series is smooth) but since 90%+ of the cars sold are automatic, you'll have a harder time finding these. Note that there will be a new 3 Series released in the next year or so (F30). That will have an impact on resale value but also mean relative bargains for the current E90 models.

There are lots of great cars on the market. Test drive a few and always be prepared to walk away.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

used to be jwoodget said:


> With current interest rates as low as they are, you should look carefully into the various financing deals. Leasing sounds good but unless you have a business and can write-off part of the payments, it just puts you into the position of replacing a perfectly good vehicle every 3 or 4 years (or paying a residual on an "old" car). The stealerships often ding you with exaggerated repair costs to bring the off-lease vehicle back to "showroom" quality. A car is a poor investment for most people no matter how you look at it as it’s a depreciating asset, but if it is essential (in that you rely upon a personal vehicle), you should probably own it.
> 
> For the OP, BMW seem to be really pushing the 323i "luxury" edition as judged by the blanket adverts. If you really want a new car, then wait till January or February when the dealerships are quiet and still trying to move their 2010 cars. If you are not too worried about the options, then you can often make good deals for a car on the lot. If you order from the factory (~two month wait), you'll get it exactly as you wanted but will get less of a discount. If you like manual transmissions, that will save ~2K (the 6 speed manual in the 3 series is smooth) but since 90%+ of the cars sold are automatic, you'll have a harder time finding these. Note that there will be a new 3 Series released in the next year or so (F30). That will have an impact on resale value but also mean relative bargains for the current E90 models.
> 
> There are lots of great cars on the market. Test drive a few and always be prepared to walk away.


Agreed straight financing seldom costs much more than a lease and when its all over, for better or worse, you own the car. I know so many people who have been hammered at the end of a lease. One individual got charged $1500 for repainting the interior of the bed on a pick-up.


----------



## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

As I understand it from my sales rep, BMW released a bunch of exec-demo 323 and 328 sedans, and they're a pretty good value. They've also started .9% interest. Good time to take another look.


----------



## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

used to be jwoodget said:


> If you like manual transmissions, that will save ~2K (the 6 speed manual in the 3 series is smooth) but since 90%+ of the cars sold are automatic, you'll have a harder time finding these. Note that there will be a new 3 Series released in the next year or so (F30). That will have an impact on resale value but also mean relative bargains for the current E90 models.


Good advice. One thing to note, manual transmission E90s seem to take a much larger resale hit (more so than the E46s did) until the car is past the age of a typical four year lease. It seems to fluctuate for 2006/2007s between $2k-4k in the GTA for the difference between manuals and automatics. But look at the 2002/2003 E46s, and the differential is less. Of course, the manual is the way to go for the spirited driver.

When the E90 was about to come out, BMW had pretty good deals on the E46s. I believe they pumped out the "Executive Package" variant of the 325i, which had a pretty attractive lease option. I can't remember the details, but I believe it was a 39-month with a 50% or 60% residual, which ended up being attractive. But of course the market is different now. Keep your eyes open.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Just can't bring myself to buy an automatic and I don't lease. My son has a manual Nissan Cube and it's also fun to drive. My commute home in the evening is fun (morning is nose-to-tail). I'm not going to be in the market for quite a while as I bought one last December (E90 335). Will have to put on the winter tyre set in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

'Niuff said:

BMW drivers are angriest on road - Telegraph


----------



## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

SINC said:


> 'Niuff said:
> 
> BMW drivers are angriest on road - Telegraph


Been there, done that........... See post 91 this thread


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

rgray said:


> Been there, done that........... See post 91 this thread


They are two distinct stories, not a duplicate.


----------



## Guest (Oct 24, 2010)

SINC said:


> They are two distinct stories, not a duplicate.


And from the article I quote:



> More than half of all drivers said they had suffered a 'bad experience' at the hands of a BMW driver.
> 
> Much-maligned white van men came second in the poll, followed by Audi drivers and those who own Fords and Land Rovers.


Wow, sounds pretty scientific to me, it was also done in britain. I fail to see the relevance your honour. (sorry, been watching too much bad tv lately)  

You do a lot of driving SINC ... what's your personal experience on this? I've done my share of time on the road and I have suffered a "bad experience" at the hands of drivers of very many car/truck/bike brands. Some of the worst I can remember were often old beat up rust bucket Pinto's and K cars and the like -- but never that I can recall with the poll's runner-up, a white van man beejacon


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mguertin said:


> You do a lot of driving SINC ... what's your personal experience on this? I've done my share of time on the road and I have suffered a "bad experience" at the hands of drivers of very many car/truck/bike brands. Some of the worst I can remember were often old beat up rust bucket Pinto's and K cars and the like -- but never that I can recall with the poll's runner-up, a white van man beejacon


One thing I can say for sure is that the more expensive the ride, the more entitled the driver appears to become. 

(I am referring here to personal vehicles only, not things like motor homes by the way. Generally they are older folks who drive cautiously and let others pass and go. The exception will be a rented rig with a young family who have no idea how to properly drive something that big.)

If I get cut off, or someone insists on passing on the right when that lane is obviously blocked ahead and then trying to squeeze into the left lane at the barricade, it will be a Beemer or a Lexus or a Hummer.

Ditto for the lack of signal light use, my pet peeve.

I can’t say from my experience that BMW drivers stand out any more that Mercedes or any other brand for that matter, but the expensive car theory proves itself to me time and time again.

Try it yourself. On your next drive, note the brands of vehicles whose drivers are a bit pushy, arrogant or whatever in their driving behavior and decide for yourself if the entitlement trend exists.

As for the white van reference, guys who drive company trucks of any kind other than semis, seem to be on a mission to rush to every job taking far too many chances on the way. Oil field workers out west being a prime example.

There is truth in your “beat up” vehicle statement as well, but I think it stems from opposing causes to my expensive vehicle theory.


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

SINC said:


> One thing I can say for sure is that the more expensive the ride, the more entitled the driver appears to become.


Agreed. I see less of this behind the wheel of the Suburban but while on the motorcycle, all I have to do is see one of those expensive hood ornaments in my rearview mirror or one of the pricey trunk ornaments beside/in front of me and my self-preservation mode goes into overdrive.

I've put nearly 16,000 miles on the bike this year. Of the 7 semi major incidents I was exposed to this summer 3 were BMW's, 1 Mercedes, 1 Lexus, 1 Jeep SUV and a pickup truck. 

I don't know what causes it, but the mindset truly exists. Are all drivers of high dollar rides the same? I don't believe so. I just know that there is a preponderance to that.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

FeXL said:


> Agreed. I see less of this behind the wheel of the Suburban but while on the motorcycle, all I have to do is see one of those expensive hood ornaments in my rearview mirror or one of the pricey trunk ornaments beside/in front of me and my self-preservation mode goes into overdrive.
> 
> I've put nearly 16,000 miles on the bike this year. Of the 7 semi major incidents I was exposed to this summer 3 were BMW's, 1 Mercedes, 1 Lexus, 1 Jeep SUV and a pickup truck.
> 
> I don't know what causes it, but the mindset truly exists. Are all drivers of high dollar rides the same? I don't believe so. I just know that there is a preponderance to that.


If you want to see this attitude in action find the 4-way stop in Aspen, Colorado and hang around at a safe distance. You will observe that: The more expensive the ride the further the throttle is depressed as they approach the stop.


----------



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

If you notice, people with proper track or GT cars (ferraris, Lambos, Porsche GT series/Turbos, RS level Audis, M series BMWs, AMG class Mercedes) generally do not drive like idiots. That is because most of these drivers take their cars to the track to drive them. There are many private, member driven tracks in the GTA and I am sure they exist elsewhere. 

When I had my Audi RS4, I had a membership and my new M3 also has a membership at these tracks. Proper drivers know that the roads and conditions on the highways and roads are not meant for high speeds. The track that I attend has 28 degree tilted banks and the track is vacuumed daily.


----------



## Guest (Oct 25, 2010)

I have to agree with you on the "more entitled" reference SINC ... but I don't think we should blame the cars, it's the people driving them no matter what brand the vehicles are -- they just happen to drive the more expensive rides (which gives us good drivers that enjoy a nice ride bad names). And you're right that the drivers at the opposite end of the spectrum drive poorly for different reasons ... the expensive end feel more entitled while the broken down rust bucket end are just terrible drivers or their vehicles are unsafe and should not be on the road.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

It's cheap to stereotype people based on whatever they drive. Some of the worst cars on the road are the clunkers that their owners could not give a damn about. My old boss used to buy second hand cars as his driving was so bad he would invariably lose a bumper or dent a wing every time he was on the road (he parked by touch - literally). There are many bad drivers on the road and many who drive without a license or while under suspension.


----------



## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

I've put on 8000 km this past summer going back and forth between Barrie, Mississauga and Burlington, and I do see a pattern with 'luxury' marques being the more dangerous drivers. Specifically BMWs? Not really. If anything, the culprits are driving SUVs. BMW make two SUVs (possibly three if you count the X6), but as previously mentioned, these cater to a totally different market than the 3-series. 

Which brings us to the real argument here. If you really want to do empirical research comparing the wealthy drivers and their driving ability, I'm sure you'll find the very rich (driving cars above $100k) are not the ones cutting you off on the freeway. As the previous poster, the car does not determine the driver. It's ultimately the driver that determines the driving.

On a side note, we have such a mix of poor driving habits, excellent driving habits, and everything in between that I believe the overall driving experience suffers. In places like Germany, the correlation between poor driving and BMWs (or any other luxury marque) doesn't exist. In 2001, the death rate there was 27 percent lower (0.59 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled versus 0.81 per million for the U.S. interstates). That's the statistics for the Autobahn, a place where drivers of high-performance Teutonic luxury cars go 180 km/h or more on their daily commute.

Again, it's our drivers. The car really has nothing to do with it.


----------

