# Rogers "not very far" on iPhone for Canada: CFO



## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Bad news, boys and girls...

Electronista | Rogers 'not very far' on iPhone for Canada

Canadians hoping to get the iPhone are likely to see a significant wait, according to cellular provider Rogers. Company CFO Bill Linton has recently confirmed at a conference that his employer was in talks with Apple to bring the device to Canada but that the iPhone creator wanted to focus first on establishing American success before shifting elsewhere, reserving its full contract negotiations for the aftermath of the June 29th release.
"The truth is we aren't very far with Apple," Linton says. "They're concentrating on this launch and the U.S., and when they decide to turn their mind to other markets, we'll be in line."

Apple has so far announced plans to bring the iPhone to Europe before the end of the year and for Asia in 2008 but has so far declined mention of Canada, which frequently shares devices and features with its American neighbor. Rogers is the only major carrier in the country to support the GSM networks used by the iPhone and would be Apple's only practical choice to carry the device.

In addition to new contracts, however, Rogers and others will also have to make significant software changes to get full support. Apple has not said whether some iPhone-specific features such as random-order voice mail will be offered in other countries.


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## sharkman (Nov 26, 2002)

Déjà vu a la iPod/iTunes initial introduction.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

Its worse than that because...
At least if you had a friend or family member in the US you could use their credit card and pay them back for all the songs you bought on iTunes. CBC Radio host Andy Barrie said he did this before the Canada iTunes store opened.

In contrast with the iPhone, sure you can buy it in the US and it *will* work in Canada but you will be paying huge roaming fees. You cannot change to a Rogers SIM and you cannot unlock it. Perhaps can buy one in the US and turn off the wireless - but then you just have a cool iPod. Maybe thats enough?


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

SK, how do you know it cannot be unlocked? Granted it may take specially made hardware and software to do it, but there is a chance it will be possible; it may take time before this is possible.


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## Cuzz323 (May 3, 2007)

*It Will Be Unlockable*

By law cell phone carriers in the state have to unlock the phone by request of the customer with no extra charge, and currently every single phone that AT&T carries they say they can unlock it for you after purchase over the phone. so no software is needed just the subsidiary lock code.


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## King Chung Huang (May 31, 2007)

Cuzz323 said:


> By law cell phone carriers in the state have to unlock the phone by request of the customer with no extra charge, and currently every single phone that AT&T carries they say they can unlock it for you after purchase over the phone. so no software is needed just the subsidiary lock code.


Yes, unlocking the phone shouldn't be a problem. The only real barrier that I can see is getting out of the 2-year plan if that's an absolute requirement.


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## krug1313 (Apr 27, 2007)

I can guarantee there will be at least a 2 year contract with the phone. Rogers etc.. don't really make their money from selling the phones but from the services every month. AT&T will use this to their advantage when it comes to people wanting to bring the iphone back to Canada. What I would do is go on a contract with them and cancel right away. I know with Rogers there is a $200 charge but just think that could be 2 months worth of usage if you were to stay in a contract with AT&T. I personally am very disappointed with the decision not to bring the iphone out in certain geographical areas such as Canada. I do understand they want to target the big market but I think they are forgetting about their faithful apple users around the world that may not be included in the "Big MArket". What would it hurt to bring the phone to Canada the same time as the USA? I mean they will only make more money. Just my thought on this.


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## jdurston (Jan 28, 2005)

Canada is bad country to be a paying cell phone user anyways. I think we have one the highest costs per phone in the world. (according to some study that was announced on the radio last year  )

Sour grapes.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Cuzz323 said:


> By law cell phone carriers in the state have to unlock the phone by request of the customer with no extra charge, and currently every single phone that AT&T carries they say they can unlock it for you after purchase over the phone. so no software is needed just the subsidiary lock code.


What law are you talking about here?

Cingular/AT&T will only unlock phones under certain conditions. Here they are:



> Unlocking your Cingular Phone
> If you want to unlock your Cingular phone, you have to call Cingular customer service and ask them for the subsidy unlock code. It is important that they understand what you want so that they don't confuse your request with assistance to get the security PIN or PUK code to unlock your SIM card. The subsidy unlock code is for your phone, not for your SIM card. Therefore, if the customer service representative doesn't understand what the subsidy unlock code is, sometimes it is necessary to explain that you are going overseas and you want to be able to use a foreign pre-paid SIM card in your Cingular phone and that's why you need to unlock it.
> Cingular will take your information and will request a subsidy code for you to a different department. This department will send the unlock code back to the CS. CS should then return your call (about 5 to 7 days later) with the unlock code and specific instructions on how to enter it. You can request they email you the information as well. Once CS receives the code, they can to pull the subsidy code immediately. Therefore, if they don't email or call you back, you can call them again and ask for the code. If they have it, they should be able to give it to you right away.
> There are two requirements to meet before Cingular will give you the unlock code:
> ...


As a Canadian, unless you live in the U.S. and meet these conditions, you will not get your Cingular/AT&T phone unlock code from Cingular/AT&T.

Also, there are phones that are not unlockable. You have no idea if the iPhone is one of those phones. Simply believing that it is does not make it happen.



krug1313 said:


> I can guarantee there will be at least a 2 year contract with the phone. Rogers etc.. don't really make their money from selling the phones but from the services every month. AT&T will use this to their advantage when it comes to people wanting to bring the iphone back to Canada. What I would do is go on a contract with them and cancel right away. I know with Rogers there is a $200 charge but just think that could be 2 months worth of usage if you were to stay in a contract with AT&T. I personally am very disappointed with the decision not to bring the iphone out in certain geographical areas such as Canada. I do understand they want to target the big market but I think they are forgetting about their faithful apple users around the world that may not be included in the "Big MArket". What would it hurt to bring the phone to Canada the same time as the USA? I mean they will only make more money. Just my thought on this.


Unless you are grandparented, and your contract with Rogers has been unchanged since before January 31, 2007, the cancellation fee is $20 per month until the end of the contract, to a maximum of* $400* and NOT $200.

Any new contract with Rogers will have the $400 minimum cancellation fee. It matches Bell, but is less than Telus' maximum, which is about $720, i.e., the entire life of your three-year contract. You'll want to find out how much AT&T's cancellation fee will be, and how you will use the iPhone's special features on a network that isn't set up for them yet, with a phone locked to AT&T...

Apple and Rogers are actually working to bring the iPhone to Canada as soon as possible, but the technical side requires much more than for other phones and no doubt Industry Canada must approve the device. It has nothing to do with the "geographical" size of Canada; Rogers is already Canada's largest digital network; they won't be building a new network.

Sigh.


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## Cuzz323 (May 3, 2007)

*Hmmm*

All GSM Mobile Phones Are Unlockable, Name a GSM phone that you say can't be unlocked and i'll prove you wrong, I'm an American living in Canada i have a New Jersey address , So getting the phone won't be an issue and next week i will be in New York picking up two 8GB models ,

one for me and one for E-bay Canada and screw the contract i'll ask them to unlock the phones onces i get the subsidy lock codes for the phones and they work on FIDO then i'll call them and tell them that i lost my phones, and make them cancel my service and stick it to em, i've done it to rogers many times, and if the phones don't work and just go and get a refund,Simple

what i really hope that happens is that Rogers act like the dicks they are and don't work out the deal that works for Apple and the Canadian iPhones are straight to retail
unlocked phones.


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## imachungry (Sep 19, 2004)

Only in Canada. Sheesh. How ridiculous.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

Cuzz323 said:


> what i really hope that happens is that Rogers act like the dicks they are and don't work out the deal that works for Apple and the Canadian iPhones are straight to retail
> unlocked phones.


If that were to happen the iPhone would likely be well over $1200 CDN *and* have no visual voicemail (or any other infrastructure-driven goodies forthcoming).

Reason: the carrier buys the phone from Apple for a lot more than the price you pay from them - they make up the difference with The Contract. In other words that $600 iPhone from AT&T likely cost them double that.... US.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

So "screw the contract" you plan to defraud AT&T, lie about "lost" phones, and have done this many times to Rogers in the past?

Anybody dealing with you here would have no reason to believe they wouldn't be treated the same.

Edit: as well, there will be a *10% restocking fee *at AT&T and Apple. Having fun yet?




Cuzz323 said:


> All GSM Mobile Phones Are Unlockable, Name a GSM phone that you say can't be unlocked and i'll prove you wrong, I'm an American living in Canada i have a New Jersey address , So getting the phone won't be an issue and next week i will be in New York picking up two 8GB models ,
> 
> one for me and one for E-bay Canada and screw the contract i'll ask them to unlock the phones onces i get the subsidy lock codes for the phones and they work on FIDO then i'll call them and tell them that i lost my phones, and make them cancel my service and stick it to em, i've done it to rogers many times, and if the phones don't work and just go and get a refund,Simple
> 
> ...


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## Cuzz323 (May 3, 2007)

*lol*

HOW OLD ARE YOU ? 

defrauding my ass :yawn: :yawn: :yawn: :yawn:


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## jhollington (Jan 29, 2007)

"Defraud" - _to deprive of a right, money, or property by fraud_

"Fraud" - _deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage._

What you want to do is ultimately up to your own personal moral and ethical code, but let's not play word games and try to suggest that this is anything _other than_ fraud in the purest definition of the term.

Going to the U.S. and buying an iPhone and connecting it on AT&T is one thing. I'm not even ruling out that possibility myself.

However, subsequently lying to them about a lost phone in order to get out of a contractual obligation is very clearly fradulent by _any_ practical or literal definition of the term.

Ultimately, you won't be able to _activate_ the iPhone without an AT&T account and a two-year contract, and it's unlikely the AT&T is going to let you out of a two-year contract quite so easily. All current indications is that the iPhone will be a brick until it's activated (via iTunes) with an AT&T contract. What will happen after that is anybody's guess, of course, but chances are good that there may be some code in the SIM card itself that locks the phone's use to AT&T. While the SIM _technology_ is supposed to be standard from a hardware point of view, there is nothing preventing activation keys from being stored on a SIM card and read by the phone.

Beyond that, there is no evidence that these phones will in fact be "unlockable" or usable on any network other than AT&T's at this time. Other phones are traditionally unlockable as they have been _designed_ to be carrier-neutral in the first place. The iPhone is the first phone ever designed to work exclusively with carriers who have placed Apple's infrastructure within their environment (as evidenced by features like "Visual Voicemail" and iTunes Store activation integration). They might very well _be_ unlockable, but there's an equal chance that it might be quite a bit more complicated than this.


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Cuzz323,

Have you checked out the requirements for activation of the iPhone in the U.S.?

I hope you have a U.S. SS# in order to activate your iPhone along with a U.S. address for your credit card check.

Good Luck!


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

MacGYVER said:


> Cuzz323,
> 
> Have you checked out the requirements for activation of the iPhone in the U.S.?
> 
> ...


He's an American so he likely has a SS#, and he has an American address in New Jersey if you read his post.

See Cuzz I'm not out to get just you, I'm out to get everyone equally.

By the way, you're opportunistic and we get that, just... don't brag about it?


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Well in that case, he should be fine 

I still wonder if it will work here?


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## Cuzz323 (May 3, 2007)

*You Have It All Wrong*

Their is no code in the sim to lock you in, the sim is the mobility of the network thats just retarded because if you burn out your sim card im sure they didn't make a **** load of iphone specific sims for AT&T that would just cost to much and make no sense AT&Ts angle is to have you using their network you can use any AT&T sim in any unlocked phone , 

phones are only locked with subsidiary lock which is what the phone will ask you for if you put in any other sim while the subsidiary code is active along with the networks logos and other branding thats put in the software,and since the iphone being locked is all software and it all OSX someone will port an unlocked version of iPhones OSX if AT&T doesn't want to give up the subsidy lock code.

but most of what you've read about being locked in is just B.S on paper, if you've toyed with gsm phones and networks since the 6th grade like i have you would know that their are certain standards that won't change.

GSM mobile phones Specifically (other networks make no sense)

Hardware: portability through swappable sims which makes the device more valuable over the years

Software: Can always be flashed/upgraded & hacked to your desire

Network: The Network is On The sim not the phone, if your iphone broke all you gotta do is take the sim and put it in a another gsm phone, no need to call the provider and update all that IMEI bull**** 

with that said the reason why the iphone is unlockable is simple because eventually the exact same phones will be sold in Canada with service from rogers
which Rogers would have to flash the phones with their branding and own subsidy lock on the phones once they get them, if it turns out that their is a stockpile of phones that are out dated they have discontinued the phones what Rogers does is debrand the phones and remove the subsidy lock and sell them to a wholesaler

So All GSM Phones Are Unlockable its just a matter of getting the subsidy lock code for that specific phone or new software to flash it with.

But next week we will all know for a fact what can be done to the iphone.

you people talking about fraud and defrauding you all sound like your in your 30s, what about Rogers switching up all of my lovely fido plans and turning the Customer service in to hell, F*ck rogers but i have no choice but to use their service because they have my preferred network but if the opportunity arises i will milk them as much as i can, I'm sure they say the same about their customers to their share holders.


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## jhollington (Jan 29, 2007)

Actually, I'm also intimately familiar with GSM and SIM card technology. I'm not saying the _hardware_ in the SIM is branded to the iPhone -- I agree that this would be ridiculous, and I further agree that it's not practical to do, particularly since the SIM technology itself is a defined standard.

However, a SIM card is also basically just a memory card. Therefore, there is nothing preventing Apple from loading an authorization _key_ onto the SIM as part of the iTunes authorization process that is required in order for the phone itself to be active (ie, to function in _any mode_). In this case, it wouldn't matter one bit about subsidy lock codes... If the authorization key isn't present in the SIM card, the iPhone doesn't even turn ON.

Whether or not they would go to this extreme is another story entirely, but it's certainly more than technologically possible, and in fact I have worked with specific models of phones from various carriers that are _designed_ with this technology for special secure applications -- a non-authorized SIM card causes the device to either lock itself down or wipe itself entirely.

What we definitely know at this point is that the iPhone will in the very least not sync content from iTunes unless it is activated for an AT&T account. That much seems readily evident. Whether the iPhone will power on and operate in _any_ mode until this activation sequence has been completed is still unknown.

However, since the phone also requires synchronization with iTunes, it would be a simple enough matter to check your account and authorization information each time you attempted to sync, and therefore either disable sync or disable the phone entirely if it was found to be activated on an "unauthorized" network.

While I have little doubt that many of these issues are going to be hacked around and solved eventually, it's likely going to take a while.... This isn't just some new model of Motorola or Nokia where the standards and code procedures are already _known_ -- it's an entirely new design, and a design that has an unprecedented level of integration both with a piece of desktop software (iTunes) and a back-end network system.


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## Cuzz323 (May 3, 2007)

*It Runs OSX just like Apple TV*

which has been hacked to bits , saying that the phone won't be usable with out iTunes sync sounds like BS on paper to me and their just saying that for easy operation and integration, what about the people who just want a phone to make a phone call but do not own a computer, which their are still many people who don't computers but still want a really good mobile phone.

but the iphone is starting to sound like the Sidekick2 no MMS and you could not see a menu screen until the phone was initially active on Danger network through The service provider which was developed for the device I don't think apple developed a network for the iPhone.

every revealing moment is becoming a sad one because this phone should be feature rich and open ,I'm just glad that Apple has streamlined the way software updates are done so once the complaining starts they just update the whole thing in one shot


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## jhollington (Jan 29, 2007)

The Apple TV was a bit more open in terms of the _hardware_, however, since an internal hard drive was included, and formatted with the HFS+ file system, it was a little bit simpler to hack.

The iPhone _might_ have a user-readable file system on its flash memory card, but it's going to be a much greater challenge to actually get access to this, as compared to plugging a standard hard drive into your computer. Again, not at all _impossible_, but also not something that the average person with a Mac Mini on their desk will be able to do either.

From what I've seen of the iPhone thus far (and trust me, I've been studying everything I can find about it in depth since January for obvious research purposes), Apple is not selling it for people who "just want to make a phone call but do not own a computer." What on earth would be the point of _that_? The iPod features would be useless, and the Internet communicator features almost useless (most people who want wireless e-mail access will also own a computer). I don't think Apple is honestly expecting _anybody_ to go out and buy a $500-$600 phone just to use barely 1/3rd of its feature set.

Apple has not developed a _network_ for the iPhone, but they've obviously integrated some technology very tightly into AT&T's infrastructure. The iTunes-based activate requires direct collaborative access between Apple's iTunes servers and AT&T's billing systems, and the Visual Voicemail feature, albeit likely developed more by AT&T than Apple, was still developed specifically for the iPhone, at this point at least.

The iPhone is very obviously _technologically_ capable of operating on any network, but the iTunes integration in and of itself allows Apple to preclude people from being able to use it anywhere they please. Sure, if you wanted to buy an iPhone, hack it to bits, and then never actually be able to load any content onto it, then that might make some sense. As far as I'm concerned, however, you'd be losing 80% of what makes the iPhone worthwhile in the first place.

I'm sure many of these issues will be overcome _with time_, but it's not like we're going to see wholesale firmware replacements or wide-open hacks for the iPhone in the first couple of weeks after its release, and even if the OS can be replaced or hacked wide open completely, there may still be issues that are protected by various proprietary protocols, algorithms, or encryption keys that have to be overcome. Just because it's "OS X" doesn't mean that everything in it is magically open to exploration....


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I think our average age is 30-35.


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## Cuzz323 (May 3, 2007)

*Interesting*

So I guess thats why there is only 13k members , I just turned 22 on the 1st.

I was wondering why most of you get all rowdy when curse on the forums and sometimes type in all caps an threats from moderators to delete me , it all makes sense.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Cuzz323 said:


> So I guess thats why there is only 13k members , I just turned 22 on the 1st.
> 
> I was wondering why most of you get all rowdy when curse on the forums and sometimes type in all caps an threats from moderators to delete me , it all makes sense.


Maturity?

Also, we won't know anything definite about the iPhone and it's unlockability until people have a chance to try it on the 29th - so why are we bickering about supposition?


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## Cuzz323 (May 3, 2007)

Chealion said:


> Maturity?
> 
> Also, we won't know anything definite about the iPhone and it's unlock ability until people have a chance to try it on the 29th - so why are we bickering about supposition?


Simply because we can, for six months we've been talking about the Jesus phone like it was an urban legend.


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