# Man was shot at Union Station



## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

A guy was shot by a sniper in the head. He was holding a hostage.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/08/25/hostage_union040825.html

Wow scary. Poor woman is going to have a rough little while.


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

Yeah I just saw that.

Sickening.

Could you imagine being that woman? Just going along your morning like usual....boy.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Yeah, that's pretty bad. At least that one police sniper knew how to end it rather quickly.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

She is going to need so much support and counselling. Unfourtunatly many end up very mentaly ill after ordeals like this. I feel for her and her family.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

another quiet day in TO.......and more fodder for macnut


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Combine this with the van-load of weapons and explosives found in Montreal, we gots ourselves a nice couple of parties happening in Canada.


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## Ingenu (Jun 4, 2003)

> Combine this with the van-load of weapons and explosives found in Montreal, we gots ourselves a nice couple of parties happening in Canada.


Yup, this van was about a thousand feets from my workplace.  

Must be bikers gang related.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

> Combine this with the van-load of weapons and explosives found in Montreal, we gots ourselves a nice couple of parties happening in Canada.


Tell me about it.

I had to walk through & around the area they had cordoned off last evening on my way to the train station. I asked a policeman what was going on and he said, "possibilité d’explosion" and showed me where the van was. It kind of surprised me that he would be so truthful about what was going on.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Ummm.... extrapolating or generalizing this isolated incident (when was the last time a sniper shot a hostage taker in Toronto - anybody?) is about as useful as predicting the next winner of 6/49 based on the characteristics of the last winner.

The news people love this as there were cameras on scene but it's one violent death among the 150 that occur every year in Canada with a population of 31 million (that rate hasn't changed in 30 years). Perspective is everything as the G&M PR people say.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I guess some of you missed the shootings that have happened in Vancouver during the past few days. It seems to be happenning with some regularity these days.

Nice to know that the billion dollar gun registry has been such a roaring success. Wait...it's much closer to TWO billion now.  

Guess it's becoming twice as sucessful, eh?  

Perhaps when the Liberals have wasted FIVE billion on it, we will all be able to breath a sigh of relief. But we will all be barricaded in our homes by that point, I'd suspect.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

i think this has more to do with mental illness than crime.

edit: i just realized how ridiculous that statement sounds. from reading the article describing the hostage taker's actions, it looked like he was mentally ill. although he did have a gun, so i guess he was probably a badass criminal long before this incident. it'll be interesting to see the profile and history of this man when it comes out.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Mental illness or not, a gun was used in this crime. Guns were used in the multiple shootings that have been happenning during the past weeks in Vancouver.

Massive amounts of guns were just found in a minivan in Montreal. (I don't suppose any of them were meant for recreational use, either).

The gun registry is NOT working. It is a giant waste of resources that could be better spent elsewhere. It has had ZERO effect on gun violence, but it has used up billions of tax dollars in the process. And the meter is still running!

What a crock.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

yes macnutt, most shootings do involve guns.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Yes...which is why our current Liberal Government has blown billions of dollars on a program to help deal with that.

Too bad it's not WORKING!  

But, considering from whence it came, I suppose we couldn't expect much more than huge bills and no results, after all.  

Same old, same old.


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

Well I'll just toss my two cents into the ring here, 'cause that's what I do...

The profile will be what ever is required from the general public's mood and pulse following the fall out the event. It always is generally speaking, city Police don't have real 'profilers' not really, not in TO anyway. What would be the definition of 'mentally ill' anyway as it applies here? Half the people standing on the corner of Bay & Queen wearing suits are by clinical definition 'mentally ill'. Ever worked on a trading floor? Now they should have allowed guns there..  

There is nothing wrong with guns, they have a use like any other tool. The problem, oh politically correct pussies, is that criminals know that committing a crime here with a firearm really doesn't have that much affect on their sentence should they be caught. You want to fix the problem, make the punishment for committing ANY crime with a firearm DEATH! No exceptions. You stick a gun in someones face you are trying to send that person a message that you will kill them if they don't comply. THAT is how you deal with guns in crime. And I'm not even talking about waiting until court, and the death sentence, we've wasted enough money on that crap, I'm talking about when the Police show up at the store you're robbing and they know you are armed, it's in the hands of the sharpshooters. In fact better if the Police didn't even make a big scene, just let you come out and drop you. If people knew that there would be no lights and sirens coming, but that somewhere outside there were snipers waiting and that they were going to shoot you dead, no arrest, no surrender, maybe you'd try a different line of work.  

Okay, well I'm going to get something eat now.... blood sugar is a little low I think.....


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Or, you could charge five thousand bucks per bullet as per Chris Rock's suggestion.  

_Man, someone hated this guy enough to get a second mortgage on their house so they could light him up? Damn!_


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

I would just like to make it clear that I wasn't trying to trivialize what this woman has gone through, because that just wouldn't be very cool. Hopefully she is one of those people that can take things in stride, deal with it and move on. 

Even though she had to put up with some asshole, mentally ill or not, grabbing her and sticking a gun to her head at least it appears she was spared a messy kill. By that I mean the guy looked like he just dropped, no messy bloody gore to deal with. I know that may sound strange but in traumatizing situations like this one the presence of blood hightens the experience to levels 6x greater than normal. So she has that going for her at least. 

Of course these friggin' idiots always have to grab a woman/girl/or a kid eh? 

Humans...nice engineering job there..


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

The guy got what he deserved...you go around pointing guns at people and take hostages...you die!

Radio is reporting that the woman hostage left the hospital with her family and in good spirits. Post trauma councelling is in order and should be arranged for her and the perps wife, who was the first victim.


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

Well that's good to here...

Be interesting to hear the 'gun' angle on this one. As in was it registered or not.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Yeah, right. If that gun was ever registered, it sure as hell wasn't registered to the guy who sawed off the barrel.....


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

I find it interesting that nobody is wondering what this guy's "story" is before they make such critical judgements such as "he got what he deserved".

I would hate to think that you could say he deserved to die before you find out what was happening, no? Talk about human engineering....


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

...before I find out what was happening? I know exactly what was happening...he fired off his gun at his wife, he missed, she ran and fell --hurting her head, he caught her and put a beating on her, he ran, cops spotted him, he took a woman hostage with a gun to her head, he pointed it at the cops and others.

What more do I need to know? The background? The fact that he might be mentaly ill? 

The situation needed quick and decisive action. The cops shot him to protect themselves, the hostage and the public. The events leading up to it and background is irrelevant. He did not need to do what he did, he could have dropped the gun after he attacked his wife, he could have surrendered to the first cop, he did not have to take a hostage....should I go on?


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> I find it interesting that nobody is wondering what this guy's "story" is before they make such critical judgements such as "he got what he deserved".


i did. it's sandwiched in between macnutts bitter ranting about the gun registry.


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

> should I go on?


You can talk all you want. I still think it's bull**** that one human says another one deserves to DIE. There is some pretty ****ty stuff that happens to people in life to make them behave the way they do. Punishment, sure. But, DEATH? I'm not so sure.

I'm sure the police did what was necessary and it makes me sick to think about all of the poor people involved in that situation. In fact, the human race makes me sick most of the time. Violence perpetuating violence, when will it end.

I missed your comment when skimming TMR...glad someone pointed it out.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm with Gretchen on this one...and I've been saying this for several years here at ehmac:

"If you choose to use a firearm in a violent way while committing a crime, there should be an automatic extra ten years tacked ON to whatever sentence that the lenient courts dole out to you. Simple as that. No negotiations. No plea bargains. Nothing!"

Or...if you choose to take someone hostage while using a gun, or are caught while committing a serious crime with a firearm, then the police should have carte blanche to erase your sorry ass from the general population while you have said weapon trained upon some innocent persons head.

Again...NO negotiations. No lawsuits. NO remorse.

This is the gene pool cleaning itself. Simple as that.

And...before any of the more wussie types out there get their sh*t all tied up in a knot about my above comments...let me again remind all of you that I have spent many MANY years living in countries where this sort of thing is a daily occurrence. It's so common in some of those places that it doesn't even hit the evening papers, most of the time.

But NOBODY in ANY of those places ever got used to it! I didn't EITHER!

And I came back here to Canada to get away from this sort of nonsense. It has NO place in anyone's daily life. NONE!  

I have no desire to see my beloved peaceful Canada devolve into a place where the violent use of firearms is somehow excused by some of the more softheaded amongst us.  

All of the criminals and ALL of the population in this wonderful land should KNOW...without a shadow of a doubt...that IF they choose to use a gun in any way outside of a recreational non-violent setting, that they will be dealt with swiftly and with great prejudice.

They (WE) should all know...at a very basic level... that they will either DIE while committing this crime, or rot in jail for at least a decade afterwards, if they choose to use a gun against a fellow citizen. No early release, no parole, no pardons, no "special circumstances" . NAAbleedinDAA.

This should be a no-brainer for everyone.

And we should also know that no lawyer in the land will be able to "get them off" of a gun charge. Holding up a store is one thing. Do it with a gun and you will pull serious hard time. Or be shot dead in the process.

Now THAT would be far more effective at preserving the public safety than the wasteful and ridiculous multi billion dollar Liberal gun registry.

Far cheaper too.

[ August 26, 2004, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## Griller (Jan 17, 2002)

*"He got what deserved."* That's what someone said, and *I agree.* You don't think it's right to say that? His history? Check out the various news reports about his background. The guy has a history and record of criminal behaviour.

The guy had already spent time in jail for related behaviour against his family. His wife and kids were so threatened by him, they FINALLY gathered enough courage to move out and leave after years of his abusiveness. In one instance, he kicked his wife out his front door and down the front cement steps of their house and put a knife against her throat and threatened to cut her. He'd also physically assaulted and threatend their daughter and son. They put up with him WAY too long. They finally had to move to a secret location from him.  

Why put him in jail again? Just so he can exist and remain a threat and an ever constant danger to his family and you and I? Even +10 extra years for violating whatever conditions, once he gets out he's STILL a threat to his family and innocent bystanders as well, as we now know. The guy involved a random person by taking her hostage and threatening to kill her! This evil spirit will no longer haunt his wife and kids OR be a threat to you or I. That's one down, but at least it's one less that's for sure.

But I'm sure the effects of his assaults have left emotional and psychological scars on his family. I just hope they can heal now and realize they're free of him.

My best wishes go out to the woman and her children!!


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

> Violence perpetuating violence, when will it end.


When everyone's dead, sadly enough.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

At least the innocent victims were not shot. For once the bad guy got it.

Further to the Gun Registry: Do you think it was a registered gun that this guy pointed to her head? Do you think the billions of dollars wasted with the registry could have prevented this crime?

Absolutely not!

As I've said and macnutt has said, the gun registry is for honest citizens. Not the criminals it is intended to control. It's time to put an end to it and put that money into something to control the criminal element related to guns. perhaps something like Law Enforcement???????? Wow. There's a thought.


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

> In fact, the human race makes me sick most of the time. Violence perpetuating violence, when will it end


It will never end, I don't think that is possible it's just ineviatable that there will be people with 'crossed' wires. That's not to say that I don't sympathize with people that are 'mentally ill' but if they are of a state that they pose a danger to people then if they get into a situation such as this then action has to be taken, sometimes there is no real 'other' useful solution. I'm also not advocating 'death squads' here'

I'll take all sorts of [email protected]#t on this one but here goes..... 

It has been proven in studies, I will provide links when I can locate my old bookmarks folder, that 'men' by nature are violent creatures. That is, when put in certain situations men will gravitate towards a violent solution much quicker than women will. Men are, again by nature, aggressive. That's not an opinion it's a fact. It has in most cases in our so called civilized society been, for lack of a better term 'bred' out or directed towards work, business things of that nature. . But it's still there. And that is evident everytime an event like this takes place. How many times has a woman gone ballistic, grabbed a gun and taken someone hostage? I can't remember any of the top of my head. 

That's not to say women don't loose it as well, they generally just don't feel the need to take out innocent people and threaten society.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

> I'll take all sorts of [email protected]#t on this one but here goes.....


I'm not giving you S**t, but rather a counter point.

The statement while true in some respects is not absolute in all cases. Here's a couple of personal experiences:

Case 1 men are violent by nature

A former employee of mine had a thing for strip clubs. He was married but frequented the strip clubs. His wife (a police officer) pleaded with him to stop going to the clubs. He refused. She decided that she would become a dancer the club he frequented to see how he liked having his wife "on display". After he demanded that she stop, she refused, and found herself staring down the barrel of his shot gun. When she turned to run, he shot her in the back and then turned the gun on himself.

Case 2 Women can also be violent

A friend of my wife is in an abusive relationship. His girlfriend is a drug addict, and frequently beats our friend. He refuses to press any charges or retaliate.

So as you can see both sexes can be violent. It's how we control that violence inside us.


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

Obviously there are no absolutes in this, I certainly wasn't implying that women can't be violent or abusive physically. My point was that 'generally' men are quicker to assign a violent solution to a given situation that they can't control, feel threatened by, don't understand things of this nature.

Your 1st case is just such a cliche. Unfortunate and sad, but still a cliche. Why do they feel the need to kill the woman and then themselves? 

I will say this, I'm not sure why women, in general, have such a problem with men going to strip clubs. As long as they aren't there doing, well you know [i said I'd clean it up], what is the matter with that? I find it absolutely hilarious that men will pay to see a chick 'try' and dance on a rug, swing on a pole and just generally look really awkward while on stage. As long as I 'benefit' from it as the wife or girlfriend, what's the deal? 

Nothing like the sexually repressed, they're a laugh a minute..


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

You might not understand this Gretchen, but some people find it an issue of respect, not sexual repression.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Hmmm. A person's opinion [or belief] on a particular form of entertainment is something I can respect; their insistence that they control their significant other from partaking in said entertainment isn't. In most cases, from what I've seen, it's a matter of one party being jealous -- in some cases one would read the other the riot act for even _looking_ at another person in public, let alone attend these type of venues.

My wife has no problems with me going to a peeler bar (she's had her fair share of stagette parties) -- in fact she's come with me on one occasion. Obviously, there is an unsaid understanding that I, myself, wouldn't make it a habit of going out on a regular basis with the boys (actually, the _only_ times I've ever gone were for bachelor parties. However, there are some guys who cross certain lines.

One of my friend's girlfriend once said: _I don't care where he gets his appetite, as long as he comes home hungry{/i].  

That being said, it's been my observation that women are far more... er... "rambunctious" at male strip joints -- so much so they make the guys look tame. _


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

Pamela.... I like your dog by the way,







I assume it's yours. 

This is a topic that is so full of explosive areas that I’m not going to even touch it here. There is no point in getting into personalities and physical types and characteristics because someone always takes offence.

I do indeed understand ‘respect’ issues Pamela. Respect and sexual repression have absolutely nothing to due with each other. They aren’t usually even mentioned in the same sentence. Why would they? My remark about the ‘sexually repressed’ wasn’t directed at anyone in particular, it was simply thrown in. 

Interesting that you would choose to associate them though. Hmmm… Kidding..relax.  

Oh  sorry about that, there’s my Psyhc degree rearing its ugly head again…


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I'd say it's up to the couple. It CAN be disrespectful OR out with the boys/girls night that is "jest fine thankee". Depends on the structure of the relationship.

Not sure you can generalize at all.

The guy played out the "helpless woman" stereotype and she seems to be fine. Good on her.
He's dead, she made it.

While not to the extreme I'm onside about hefty "armed and dangerous" penalties but I also think prisons just breed better criminals with no useful skills other than more criminal activity.

I really have no issue with a combination of hard time AND really intrusive tracking afterwards...ie electronic...blow your foot off.....the cops know where you are for violent crimes and three strikes for violent crimes = life.

Smaller facilities instead of criminal warehouses and tracking might help the marginal criminals.
There will always be hard cases and the mentally ill aspect is terrifically difficult......I know from personal experience how protective society is of "not being committed" by anyone other than yourself. My sister "might" have been a danger to herself or others but the line was very fine and even my dad couldn't quite settle on what to do.

This incident was likely a case for an equally speedy non lethal solution as it could have been a psychotic episode tho the history indicates otherwise.

We ARE primates after all and the only peaceful ones are the Bonobo chimps and they have a unique method of peace keeping not for this thread.


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

Well as I said there are too many areas that people can take issue with, it's a subject that I don't think is really worth the trouble it would create. 

Of course if someone's dumb enough to open the box... Don't say I didn't warn you.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I'm not sure what thee solution to violent crime is. For people such as this guy who took the hostage, I don't really think anything mentioned in this thread would of really been much of a deterrent. He had a sickening history of abuse of his wife and children. 

"He lived on a quiet suburban street in Ajax where neighbours had no idea what was happening behind closed doors. For example, the divorce papers say Brookes punched his wife, choked her and once carried gasoline into the house, threatening to burn it down.

The attacks reportedly got worse after Brookes was fired from his job at the Hudson's Bay Company in 2001. He took a severance payment of more than $100,000 and started a job delivering newspapers.

Marlene Brookes only recently started reporting her husband's violent behaviour to police. Before that, she lied to doctors about the source of her injuries.

The divorce papers say Brookes also took out his frustrations on his two children, once scouring Ajax, looking for his 16-year-old son with a fire poker in the car."

 

There's no joy for me thinking "He got what he deserved." Why did we have to get to that point? Why did his wife have to lie to doctors about abuse. Forget gun control... We need abusive husband control.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"_ Well as I said there are too many areas that people can take issue with, it's a subject that I don't think is really worth the trouble it would create. _

Start another thread with one or more of the "issues" as yes it could go off in areas not appropriate to this like Bonobo solutions.
Pick one - I'm game. Call it Pandora's box  pun intended
 

•••

ehMax I think the move away from extended families and close knit communities lets this kind of abuse fester.
It's a microcosm of the "sovereignity" issue when a govnerment is abusing it's citizens.

When and how to interfere is a difficult issue ( tho not in this case".

The Francois Truffaut film "Small Change" is a terrific work right on the subject of when should the state or neighbors step in to domestic situations.

Hangover from "his home is his castle" days


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

> I'm not sure what the solution to violent crime is


The Toronto police used the right solution yesterday morning.

Cheers


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

> There's no joy for me thinking "He got what he deserved." Why did we have to get to that point? Why did his wife have to lie to doctors about abuse.


This is what I was talking about. That's for spitting it out for me ehmax.


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

> ... "He got what he deserved." Why did we have to get to that point? Why did his wife have to lie to doctors about abuse. Forget gun control... We need abusive husband control.


I don't think it is a matter of _deserved_ I think it's more a matter of what was required at the time and the given circumstances. At that point I don't think 'who' the person is matters, it's what they are doing. Was he, is he just an abusive hateful person or is he mentally ill and doesn't even realise what he's doing. It doesn't matter then, by then he is an unresponsive menacing deadly human being that needs to be stopped quickly. Cruel and impersonal? Maybe, but do you think he saw his victim as a person? He just knew she was female and the Police wouldn't shoot her. The fact that he grabbed a hostage shows that he was coherent enough to understand what she was in the situation. His shield. Deserve has nothing to do with it. It was required.

You know you have it half right ehMax, there needs to be 'spouse abuse' control because whether you are aware of it or not wives abuse their husbands on almost the same scale. It's one of the most under reported forms of abuse there is.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I don't think it is a matter of deserved I think it's more a matter of what was required at the time and the given circumstances.


well put
much better than "deserved", unless of course you're a gun touting lifetime member of the NRA


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## Gretchen (Aug 16, 2004)

> Start another thread with one or more of the "issues" as yes it could go off in areas not appropriate to this like Bonobo solutions.


As I said, if someone is dumb enough to open it... I'll jump in.

I'm just not lighting the fuse that blows the hinges off and lets out everyones hangups, deep seated neurosiess and insecurities... 

Got a match?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Fuse.......Aw c'mon...sort of a 'nitation ceremony eh







 

•••••

The police exercised "lesser evil" judgement as they are empowered to do and with the equipment they currently had. I'm sure anyone of them would have preferred a perfect immobilization without death solution.
Wasn't there, that's what they were trained to do and they did it.

I'm sure the officer firing the gun ALSO gets trauma counselling. I don't envy his job and I'm glad there are "last resort" officers available with appropriate equipment and training.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I co-facilitate an anger management and abusive relationship program with my father in law. The statistics are not to good once a person is in the system, but some people do change. There are the really sad cases in which no one reports it. Unfourtunatly in this guys case his time was up and he didn't change. It's sad to see how many people in society are. Unfourtunatly the law can only do so much. Verbal abuse and psychological abuse also happen often but no one can be charged for verbal abuse unless it is threatining. They send them to us when it gets out of hand and the end result often is physical or sexual abuse. We try our best to teach them about their anger history and then they have to take responsibility and do the work. No one can make you hit them. Regardless of what they do. You got to drill it into their heads. They make the choice, regardless of mental ilness or not. There are those rare cases in which people do not know what they are doing is wrong. Being deemed not guilty by reasons due to a mental ilness is few and far between. You have to prove that you did not know right from worng at the time of the act. It used to be called the insanity plea. It's going to take a long time for the family and possibly the hostage to heal. I think the police did the right thing in the end. Not because of his history but because of the situation. The situation could of been worse.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Some walking time bombs simply are a victim of both their genes and their home environment and can never change.
Damaged and dangerous goods.
This was a chilling docu

















Cops know of 40 murders - he claims over two hundred.

HIs pattern only exists in 1-2% of 1% of the population ( shizophrenic psychopath ). and THAT'S a good thing. Not a tale for the faint of heart.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/kuklinski2/1.html?sect=8


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

It was a bad situation. No question about it at all.

The police solved a LOT of problems for society by erasing the mutt when they did.

There is a very good chance that, had he been subdued without deadly force and jailed, he would have gotten back out onto the streets within seven or eight years or thereabouts. Perhaps even sooner.

Canadian courts and parole hearings are terribly lax. They tend to release even the very WORST offenders back out to live among us in less than a decade. One way or another.

Many re-offend.

Canada doesn't need any more specialised gun laws. We already have lots of those on the books. We also don't need a horridly expensive multi-billion dollar registry of long guns that only tracks about twenty per cent of the duck hunters shotguns, and nothing else. (What a terrible waste of money and resources THAT completely ineffectual program has turned out to be!!)









What we really NEED is more active enforcement of the gun laws we already HAVE in this country.  

Hold up a Tim Horton's and you will probably get a year or less in jail. Smack someone around while doing it and you might get a deuce less a day (Provincial time).

However, if you should choose to use a GUN in the commission of this act, you should get no less than TEN YEARS hard time! Injure or kill someone with said gun in the comission of this crime, and you should get LIFE with NO chance of parole. Period. Full stop. End of discussion.

No arguments for leniency, no lawyers deals and NO plea bargains. Just an instant and irrevocable hard time charge because you used a firearm in the comission of a crime. Simple as that.

And make damn sure that even the most crack-addled no-brain on the streets knows this basic fact, chapter and verse. Throw a bunch of his buddies in jail for a decade or so when they commit crimes with guns...just so's he really GETS the point, once and for all.

THEN watch the gun-related crimes drop off to nada.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

There are many who claim to be insane in the end. If you cover up what you are doing then you know it is wrong therfore how can you be insane (Not knowing right from wrong, not being responsible because of mental disease). In most cases that is what happens. Then there is also the question, if they are not insane how can they do these terrible acts. Jeffory Dahmer comes to mind. Pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity and they found him not insane. He was given 957 years in jail. In Canada how many years do you think he would get? People get confused about schizophrenia. It is a psychotic disorder, they are not psychotic (as in ready to kill someone). People see and hear things and are out of touch with reality but know right from wrong. They are not psychopaths. Some of them are, but I don not think there are that many around tha truly do not know right from wrong. Most people who suffer from schizophrenia never hurt anyone. The media makes things sound a lot worse and mental ilness is a prime target. It is very stimatized and this causes a lot of people not to seek help in particular men. As for the gene issue and enviromental. In the DSM, the book psychiatrists use to diagnose people. There is a whole section regarding, childhood, if the person is an alcoholic, if the person was a young offender, family history etc. People can change but it takes a lot of work. In the end I believe people allways choose to do what they do. If you don't choose to get help then you have made a choice regardless of your genes. Psychology and Criminology has interested me for many many years. I want to eventuly do private counselling, but I at one time wanted to work with the criminaly insane. As for gun laws we need to do something or there will be no more Rexdale. It is really getting bad the gang violence.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt while I agree in part on the stiffer penalties for armed crimes there still needs to be a back end solution so that the Prisoner Collegiate Graduate advanced studies programs don't get simply more time to train inmates.

You are very wrong in the case of recidivism for for violent offenders commiting another violent act.



> Ottawa - The National Parole Board's Performance Monitoring Report for 1999-2000 shows that the violent recidivism rate for offenders on full parole is down from 2.6 % in 1995/96 to* 1.8 % in 1999/00. Violent recidivism refers to offenders who were released on day parole, full parole or statutory release and were subsequently convicted of a crime of violence such as murder, attempted murder, sexual assault, forcible confinement and armed robbery. *


That's a vanishingly low rate and dropping.

Even overall about 1 in 8 re-offend but considering the high rate of conviction on drug use and fraud (a "skill" often learned in prison.) that's still not "huge".

The longer a person is in the system the less likely they are to re-enter society successfully.
Also the change in the Mental Health Act means many on the borderline end up in prison instead of in treatment.
High numbers of First Nations inmates also points to flaws in the "system". 

There will be and are "hard core" - getting the drug and mentally ill cases into the medical treatment side would throw resources into dealing with true hardcore criminals who do need to be separated from society and are very unlikely to change.

Clockwork you've got some good points but please break them up a bit into paragraphs - very hard to read.

Being mentally ill and being "not responsible for criminal behaviour due to insanity" are different things.
Without a doubt serial killers are mentally ill. The Ice Mans pair of mental illness kept him functional for many years in being a contract killer.
It didn't make him "not responsible" by way of insanity.

Some of the greatest artists are marginally insane and functional mental illness can often be an edge to success in certain fields.

Here's a surprising gallery






































http://www.twilightbridge.com/icons1/iconshomepage.htm

In some societies a man like Van Gogh and even Beethoven would be locked away. It's a hard line to determine.
The movie *Shine* is a good example.

Therea re no simple "nostrums" to deal with the ills of society. Hard work, dedicated professionals, watch dogs to guard the system from abuse and change over time.

Hey they used to lock away women at a certain time of month.....and being gay!!!  

No easy answers but losing handguns might be a start tho in this case it was a rifle so even that would be no help and many violent acts are committed with anything that comes to hand.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I don't know for certain anyone can say that all serial killers are mentaly ill, but most likely, most of them are. If you went to see a psychiatrist most people could get a diagnosis of some sort. I think everyone to a cetain degree could slide in somewhere. A psychiatrist could find anyone a spot. If you ever see a psychiatrist, even once you are on file forever. 

I think in some ways, saying someone is mentaly ill and that is why they did it, is kinda of a red herring fallacy. Instead of saying the guy/girl was just violent or just a mean spirited person, we try to make sense of it by making a simplistic reason/excuse. We don't want to admit that the person was just an ass, we have to analyze it and come up with a phony reason. I know what the statistics say, but there made up from the questions they ask which may or may not be really fair. Generaly there is alcohol/drugs involved in these people lives. 

I certinaly believe in a spiritual warfare. Not the old devil made me do it, but people give into the evil's of the world. I think as a society we are pulling away from God and the consequences are severe. I think the devil temps people all the time. Everyone has bad thoughts at times. Not everyone acts on them though. 

I was just simply getting at the fact that mental ilness and insanity are often blended too much together. Many people seem to get confused. Many people with mental ilness are famous. Van Gough it is believed had bi-polar disorder (formerly manic depression, he cut his ear off and then eventualy killed himself). The man who invented the modern day computer Allan Turing was gay, and was found with a young man. It was ilegal in England during the 30's or what ever time frame he lived and he was given the choice of drugs or a jail sentence. He took the drugs which made him depressed and he ended up killing himself. 

I think mental ilness becomes more stigmatized because of people allways blaming mental ilness for there behaviour. I for one dont buy mental ilness made people do it. I think many people become products of there environment and just hate. They end up not dealing with there issues and there anger and it ends up killing them. They turn away from the good in life and become self absorbed, caring little for others. Most of the people I work with who have severe mental ilness no right from wrong. I have seen some people abuse there disability and it is terrible to see that. 

There are many people who have had wicked parents, brutal abuse but they change. Not everyone goes out and does what has been done to them. Maybe they are mentaly ill because of the past, but certianly the majority of people don't become serial killers. There are way more people that I have met, that are far crazier then say a Ted Bundy or a John Wayne Gacey that are not killers. Most of these killers are bright, inteligent and have anti-social personality disorder not schitzophrenia (althought there are some like the iceman). Personality disorders are also very controversial.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"who have had wicked parents, brutal abuse but they change."

Abuse on its own, genetics on their own rarely have catastrophic effects on child and adult personalities, its the combination.

Comes a time you get a letter from a loved one saying her husband is killing her children with poison.
You just saunter up and say well what you are feeling is your choice  

People FAS ( Fetal Alcohol Syndrome ) do not have the brain structure that inhibits things like theft. It's like blaming a colour blind person for not being able to see different colours. They don't have the wiring.

It's genetics AND birth factors AND environment that determine where you fall in the bell curve of human abilities and disabilities.
You can't MAKE yourself into a world class sprinter no matter how hard you try....you don't have the fast twitch fibres.

You can't MAKE yourself into a worldclass marathoner..you don't have the slow twitch - most of us have a mix of each. Exceptionally accomplished people and exceptional misfits are on the ends of the bell curve.

It's not an excuse it just IS - your skin is a certain colour, your eyes your hair.
Skin colour can determine cancer risks....

Perfectability of each human is nonsense. Society as a whole has to deal with those on the ends of the bell curve, both the brilliance and the violence, the healthy and the dysfunctional.

How our society goes about that is something we CAN change.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I'll just point out that the significantly harsher penalties for firearm use in a crime in the US has done bugger-all to reduce the use of firearms. All it has done is fuel a building craze in State prisons. Couple this with a relucance to provide adequate counselling to prisoners and the prisons simply harden the criminals.

We shouldn't confuse professional criminals, opportunistic criminals and psychopaths. The latter are irrational and will not be deterred by laws and sentences. Professional criminals may be deterred by enhanced sentencing but current laws do look at these people differently from opportunistic criminals. The opportunity criminals don't weigh up long term risks. They live by the hour. Dealing with them requires instillation of hope and a belief that they are not trapped with crime the only escape. Slapping them in a cell for a couple of years is not the answer.

As for the hostage taker, I doubt anyone has sympathy for him and many will applaud the fact that he has been "taken out". It's convenient and we won't have to pay his incarceration nor will future victims suffer. But this is not a solution for anything beyond an immediate action. Would it not also be convenient to euthanize anyone deemed a current or future risk (or burden) to society? The sharp-shooter did the right thing. He took a life to save a life in a split-second. But this action is otherwise irrelevant to our laws and our judiciary.

We don't and shouldn't take a human life unless critically forced to. Isn't that what sets us apart from the likes of Saddam Hussein?


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

Mental illness is not as simplistic as comparing it to being a world class athelete. Yes you need good genes and training to become a good athelete. Mental illness has many different theories and no one can claim they are completely right. Theories range from the pure biological fundamentalists, to the pure environmental fundamentalists, to the behaviouralists, to the cognitive behaviouralists, to the humanists, to the Freudians and so on. All with different ideology. Then there are the people such as myself that are some where inbetween all these ideas. I believe certain disorders such as bi-polar, schitzophrenia and some depression are largely biological in nature. The stress-diathisis model which is the person is predisposed to the illness such as bi-polar and a significant trauma such as stress triggers it off. Most people have a family history of illness. 

Then there is Personality disorders which are extremely controversal as is the whole field of mental health. I believe that (situational) depression is largely based on environmental factors such as a death in the family. That may or may not change the chemicals in the brain. Did the chemicals change or did the thinking change first. Medication only works on about 50% of the people. Many people feel better taking a placebo. Some people think it is all in your head. Some think it is chemicals. 

That is very rigid thinking to say that everyone who commits horrid crimes is mentaly ill. It is a bias and a sterotype, you are saying that no one who is of sound mind can commit a hideous crime. That is far from the truth, and I think there is many people who are not ill commiting horrible crimes. Look at gangs for example, some kill many people but I dont think that they are all mentaly ill. I consider that just as bad as what other people do. The example of a baby is a little extreme and no doubt the woman proably would have an illness. There is probably far more criminals who are not mentaly ill. But since the psychiatric field is so tainted by wanting reasons for why people do things, who knows what the truth is. 

Human beings are fantastic at rationalzing and justifing our behaviour. Im not completely arguing against the idea that most horrid crimes people do in fact have a mental ilness. I just think your not being open to the Idea that some people may in fact not be mentaly ill that commit horrid crimes. Maybe they are spiritualy ill? It is also completely different if you have brain damage, that is generaly a different sub-group in the mental health field. Most people with brain damage are not criminals.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well said. UtB

Only one small caveat "opportunity criminals".........are quite often FAS victims for whom it's literally "not an issue" as they lack the sense of distinguishing say picking up other people's property.

Gang related and "pro" criminal organizations do indeed need offsetting institutions to deal with them...more's the pity.
Keeping the gap between haves and have nots, creating a society where it's realistic to earn your way to a better life than steal your way reduces the burden crime extracts from society.

Taking a different approach to drugs use and abuse, taking out the profit motive also helps. Damn who would have thought the Fraser Institute would come out in favour o decriminalizing MJ.









I don't think there is one "solution" to antisocial and criminal behaviour in society.
First Nation communities are doing their part with creative sentencing keeping their culutral members out of prison and in their own communities.

Other "community appropriate" sentencing is working in some areas.
Drug use as a health issue is another.

We have only to look south for what NOT to do.

Crime is falling but that may just as well be a changing population demographic.

Petty crime is very low in Japan due to social differences. It's doubtful we could duplicate that here.

A "fair opportunity" society is the best overall panacea in my mind.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"That may or may not change the chemicals in the brain.".....sorry clinical depression however it is caused DOES cause chemical changes and ( newly interpreted - physical ) changes in the brain.

I think you are muddling adherence to a moral code of conduct which is largely environment driven aided by being in the norm in the gene pool........agsint where anyone is on the bell curve of mental stability.

They are different issues.
The latter can impact your ability to adhere to the former.
The moral code and ameliorate the effects of the latter.

Most soldiers have to be trained to "split second kill" as it's not in the norm of the human psyche and so tends to attract those for whom it IS in the psyche.

Tell me directly how would you handle an FAS teenager who simply does not have the capability of distinguishing between their property and somebody elses??

It's not a choice they can make. How do you handle their "crimes"???


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

Unfourtunatly we are falling into our neighbours trap. Super jails have not worked in the US, but we decided to open our own. Then we hired Americans to run it. There is a good progarm in Brampton called OCI, Ontario Correctional Institute. People go there after they have served time. It is a rehabilitation program with a better success rate then jails. 

http://www.mpss.jus.gov.on.ca/english/corr_serv/mod_system/new_design.html

Supposed to make it safer by locking people up all day. Locking people in boxes. That sounds healthy. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0%2C3858%2C4769367-108101%2C00.html

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". People need to have some rehabilitation to give them a chance. Most of the people in jail were abused, had bad home lives and only know violence or what they were taught. Many people are in jail for smoking a joint or other peddy crimes. Then they go to jail and get abused there. Vicious cycle. You put a man in a cage and treat him like an animal that is what he will become (that was what one man said in a super jail from a show I watched). I have watched many shows regarding super jails and 23 hour confinement and they go crazy.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I was talking about situational depression that may or may not cause chemicals to change. Some people do not believe that any depression is chemical. There is no 100% proof. 

http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Depression_Information/causes2.htm

They have theories on seretonin levels and they know that some people do well when given SSRI'S or other anti-depressants. There are probably many people dont need them. Prozack at one time was the most perscribed medication. There is also many people who do need medication and it works for them. Your going on what you think rather then scientific evidence. There is no solid proof regarding chemical imbalances. Many people get help through psychotherapy alone. Many of those people have seen a psychiatrist who has said to them that it is a chemical imbalance. If it was a chemical imbalance for all depression then everyone would get help from pills. 

Depression is one of those things that some people believe that it is the negative thoughts that cause the depression. While others believe it is the depression causing the negative thoughts.

As for FAS teenagers that again is an extreme case. Those poor kids have brain damage not mental illness. There is also people who have frontal lobe damage who have impulse control problems. Or others who have damage to one hemisphere who can only see one side of any objects. They are not the same as mental illness. There is no proof of brain damage in most cases. Not at least that is solid. Two different things.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sorry gravity's a theory too, just because it's incomplete in all aspects doesn't mean it's "up in the air"









I don't think it could me much clearer than this.
What IS not known is the best methods of dealing with it, and there ARE multiple trains of thought on that and indeed the curative powers of the body are remarkable.
Drawing a hard line between mental illness and brain damage is at best specious.



> *Brain Changes Seen In People With Depression*
> 
> JACKSON--*A scientist at the University of Mississippi Medical Center has demonstrated for the first time that two types of brain cells are abnormal in the brains of people who suffered from clinical depression * and most of whom committed suicide.
> 
> ...


There is no question the changes are there, dealing with cause, management and cure will take longer.
My son can manage his diabetes but he's not "cured".

No easy answers.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

No easy answers at all. The brain is too complecated. Too many theories that end up going no where unfourtunatly. 

Something that you may be interested regarding diabetes.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-08/uot-uot081804.php


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah we are real excited about that. My wife works in the field and the feeling is about 5-10 years for a "cure".

My son wants the inhaler insulin like NOW for when his pump site comes out. The entire Diabetes milie is a model of how, public, private and citizen groups can work effectively toward solutions.
•••

One of the scarier aspects of the brain/chemical understanding is the possiblity of governments using the knowledge for a vareity of "less than desirable" purposes.

Like the LSD experiments in the past some times pure science can be divereted to socially regressive ends.  

Still a focusable disabling "brain disruptor" would have been useful in this case. The "stun gun" is still a ways off I think.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

> "These control subjects are valuable standards for comparison with the suicide victims,"


Yes, But there are other varibles involved here, Like depression
mixed with poverty or other diseases like A.A.D.D.

Or even those that commit suicide because they are driven to it
by the social structure that they have been forced to live in by
way of political control. (An unsympathic Provincial Government)

If the TTC had more elevators...imagine the delays.

D.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Given what people survice with the "will to live" intact and given the suicides in the "very rich" - living circmstances are not likely a "driven to" major factor.

Might contribute as with First Nation communities.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Pretty garbled post, macdoc.

With rather obtuse thoughts, as well.

Perhaps you'd prefer to sober up before posting. Just so's we can all have a good shot at following your twisted "logic" on this particular point.

It's always fun to play with your brain when you are cold sober. But...you are wayyy too easy a target when you're seriously hosed









It's like shootin fish in a barrel :lmao

And I'm not going to go there.


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