# Back from Europe: $8000 bill (Virgin)



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Alberta man stung by cellphone bill of nearly $8,000*





> Jason Boutang says he was shocked when he opened the bill for his iPhone and saw he had racked up charges of nearly $8,000.
> 
> “It’s criminal,” said Boutang of his June statement saying he owed Virgin Mobile $7,763.70 after using the phone for three days while travelling in France.


(Read more at the Toronto Sun)


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

That's what happens when you lack attention to detail (or if you don't pay attention).


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

whats criminal is being such a moron that you missed every single story about all the dumbass americans who this happened to a few years ago when the first iphone launched. even late night talk show hosts monologues made jokes about this.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Boo hoo... this guy's an idiot. This is common knowledge, and has been for years. His fault for being a moron.


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## minnes (Aug 15, 2001)

So far it seems no one has any sympathy for this guy.
I see people blabbing away on heir cell phones for hours on end locally, just pointless chatter. I guess some expect the same concept to work over long distance too.

Am I the only one here that is offended by endless cell phone chatters in public?
Are people afraid of quiet moments?
It just seems rude to me.
You learn more with your mouth closed and your mind open.

Society has invented a lot of ways of separating people from their money, and giving them nothing to show: lottery tickets, legal gambling of any kind, smoking, drinking, cell phones, World Of Warcraft, Tim Hortin's etc.


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## Jason H (Feb 1, 2004)

Lars said:


> That's what happens when you lack attention to detail (or if you don't pay attention).





broad said:


> whats criminal is being such a moron that you missed every single story about all the dumbass americans who this happened to a few years ago when the first iphone launched. even late night talk show hosts monologues made jokes about this.





kloan said:


> Boo hoo... this guy's an idiot. This is common knowledge, and has been for years. His fault for being a moron.


Does it not say in the article that he did phone virgin to inquire about taking the phone overseas? I'm sure a person who doesn't care about all the details of the phone wouldn't know all the details of roaming charges etc. I cant believe he streamed radio for hours. :yikes:

Now that I've said that..... That guy is a moron. I'm sure a quick google search would have found him all the answers. I dont trust a thing any customer service rep says... ever... about anything. Every time I phone telus they tell me that I have to pay roaming charges while I'm in the states... which I dont... because they are included in my north american plan... but they dont get it.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

There are people out their that are willing to pay large amounts of money to use their phone overseas, within reason. This just highlights exactly how greedy telecom companies actually are. This guy only used about 100mb of data after all. How in gods name can Virgin justify charging $8000 for that? Its like having a beer at the ballpark, you know its going to be pricey, but you wouldn't expect to pay $200 per beer. Would you blame a person for complaining when he receives an $800 bill for four beers, just because he assumed that the price would be within reason?

I think telecom companies should be held accountable here and come up with some kind of explanation as to why they are charging such exorbitant roaming charges. It seems to me that they have simply set a trap for the uninformed. most people will just quietly pay a large bill for the one or two calls that they made, not wanting to bring light to their own carelessness. But, every once in a while there is a guy like this that really gets bitten, and it really brings this issue to light.


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## MomentsofSanity (Jul 9, 2008)

It's the stories like this that really irk me. Someone makes a mistake, or fails to understand and everyone is on them pointing out how stupid they were for not knowing. But let's be serious here. $8000 for three days is ridiculous.

The better part is the Telco saying they will look into it to see if there's anyway to soften the blow. Here's one. Charge him whatever your bundle plan was that he failed to sign up for or be made aware of if in fact that's the case. Instead it's a matter of "You didn't know about it so now you're stuck with it even though we could have charged you only 2.5% of what your bill came out to had you just signed up for this". This is after the fact that they lock your phone so you have no other option BUT to pay them their absurd roaming fees.

IMHO it should be mandatory that any Telco should be required to charge based on their package plans designed specifically for foreign charges when it comes to roaming charges whether you sign up for a specific one or not instead of trying to trap people into these massive bills, especially if they lock your device to their network eliminating your options. Yes people can look into these things but it's not always clear and it's not always easy to find.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

MomentsofSanity said:


> IMHO it should be mandatory that any Telco should be required to charge based on their package plans designed specifically for foreign charges when it comes to roaming charges whether you sign up for a specific one or not instead of trying to trap people into these massive bills, especially if they lock your device to their network eliminating your options. Yes people can look into these things but it's not always clear and it's not always easy to find.


I agree.


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## thadley (Jul 8, 2008)

Yeah, he did call Virgin, though. A responsible CSR would be like "So, if you do pretty much anything with your phone abroad, you will be charged tons of money. Here's out super awesome data plan where you get 10 WHOLE MEGABYTES for the low low price of $500!"

Or at the very least warn him certain activities are data-intensive. It sounds like this guy doesn't really understand how data works. I mean, you've got to know that streaming a radio station is pretty data intense.

I do feel for him, however. I warn everyone while traveling to be careful with their phones and to make sure data roaming is off.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

thadley said:


> you've got to know that streaming a radio station is pretty data intense.


My question is: who in their right mind LOVES radio THAT much that they need to stream it from Europe...?!

Ridiculous. hehe


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## brockster (Mar 14, 2008)

It's pretty much common knowledge even to those that are not very tech savvy that you don't use data when travelling to another country unless you buy a plan before you go and know it's limitations.

It's good that this happens to a few morons like this so the story can get out to other morons and prevent future moronic stories like this.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Virgin charged that much because the European carriers charged Virgin almost that much. As long people continue to pay that much, this won't change.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Article says he's a car salesman. I wonder if he shares the same stance on overcharging when he's selling undercoating and "admin fees" to his customers? ;-)


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## mkskud (Oct 27, 2007)

He's an idiot. He's on the other side of the world, he openly admits to streaming radio, using the gps to drive to different locations. Where did he think the internet was magically coming from?


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

hayesk said:


> Virgin charged that much because the European carriers charged Virgin almost that much. As long people continue to pay that much, this won't change.


Who the hell is paying $8000/$100mb??? This is just robbery plain and simple. This happens all the time. My buddy just got back from Italy, where his friend brought his iPhone as a cheap GPS solution. He checked a few emails whilst there and ended up with a $375 bill. Don't think that most people know this stuff, because they don't. An just explain to me why a service provider can supply a decent amount of data to a local for about $40 per month, but when a tourist roams through the price is jacked sky high??


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Can we get back to why he was streaming radio while in EUROPE?! who in the frig does that!? You're in EUROPE. yeesh


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## brockster (Mar 14, 2008)

jawknee said:


> Can we get back to why he was streaming radio while in EUROPE?! who in the frig does that!? You're in EUROPE. yeesh


That Calgary Radio station he was streaming must be like the cocaine of streaming radio ;-)


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

hayesk said:


> Virgin charged that much because the European carriers charged Virgin almost that much. As long people continue to pay that much, this won't change.


Exactly - the price is what it is.
You can't expect to pay the same price for a service if you are in another country than what you are used to paying when at home.
When I call Europe, I pay 2 cents a minute for a call, but people in Europe pay a lot more per minute when they call me.
And calls to a cellphone in Europe ar 18 cents/minute (2 cents/minute is to a land line)

If Virgin gives the guy a break, they will be eating the difference in price - they are not going to get a break from the European carriers.

And as to the comment to automatically apply a plan retroactively that the guy could have bought.......I don't really know what plans are available from Virgin for overseas roaming, but consider that Canadian cell phone providers don't even do that within their local territory.
When I ended up with a larger bill than expected because of text messaging and being charged for each message individually (because I didn't sign up for a plan), there was no option to sign up for a text messaging plan retroactively even though that was well within the cell phone providers control - no other company involved.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

andreww said:


> Who the hell is paying $8000/$100mb??? This is just robbery plain and simple. This happens all the time. My buddy just got back from Italy, where his friend brought his iPhone as a cheap GPS solution. He checked a few emails whilst there and ended up with a $375 bill. Don't think that most people know this stuff, because they don't. An just explain to me why a service provider can supply a decent amount of data to a local for about $40 per month, but when a tourist roams through the price is jacked sky high??


Because they can. It's that simple. The carriers have agreed to pay each other extraordinary fees when they carry each other's customers. It's likely a holdover from when data really was expensive. Until one carrier gets mad and has enough clout to change the minds of all of the other carrier's, it's not going to change.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

krs said:


> Exactly - the price is what it is.
> You can't expect to pay the same price for a service if you are in another country than what you are used to paying when at home.


To their credit, the person suggesting that they pay a different rate was referring to the rate of the roaming data package... ie. (on Robbers) $225 for 75MB with $3/MB overage.

I don't see why that would be unreasonable to ask. If the carriers are offering these packages they're obviously not paying the amount they charge you w/o them. How can we speculate this? Because they've never in their existences done anything that didn't benefit them in some way.

EDIT: That said, the guy IS an idiot.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Lots of comments on the CBC article
CBC News - Calgary - $7K iPhone roaming tab irks Alberta man

Pretty much zero sympathy.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

jawknee said:


> To their credit, the person suggesting that they pay a different rate was referring to the rate of the roaming data package... ie. (on Robbers) $225 for 75MB with $3/MB overage.
> 
> I don't see why that would be unreasonable to ask. If the carriers are offering these packages they're obviously not paying the amount they charge you w/o them. How can we speculate this? Because they've never in their existences done anything that didn't benefit them in some way.
> 
> EDIT: That said, the guy IS an idiot.


It would be interesting to find out what the bill would have been with the appropriate Virgin roaming package.
I assume streaming a Canadian radio station for hours on end would still not be that cheap - streaming at 128 kb/sec equals 57 MB/ hr, so for five hours that would be $855 at Rogers based on the rates above.

Can't quite figure out what Virgin's plans are when I look at their website.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

There should be no way for carriers to charge that much. Their roaming packages/rates should be automatically applied if you go abroad.

Having said that, I agree that this guy is a moron. He had to go into settings and turn ON data roaming, otherwise he would've had no data connection. He had it coming!


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

hayesk said:


> Because they can. It's that simple. The carriers have agreed to pay each other extraordinary fees when they carry each other's customers. It's likely a holdover from when data really was expensive. Until one carrier gets mad and has enough clout to change the minds of all of the other carrier's, it's not going to change.



Thats just it, when using Rogers or Virgins data roaming package as a guide we can safely say that the data this guy used was expensive, but certainly not $8000. The phone companies are f__King guys like this every day. You cant say that data has this much value for this person, and this much value to another. It costs them a certain amount per GB to deliver, in Canada for instance, Rogers delivers 6GB for $30. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that works out to about .5 cents per mb, and we know that Rogers must be making a profit on that. So how can anyone with any kind of conscience say that they are okay with this guy being charged $60 per mb?


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

This is why someone like me must never buy and use a cell phone.

Although, to be honest, long before I took a phone to a foreign land and racked up thousands of dollars in fees I was unaware of, I would have left the phone in my bicycle basket/on a cafe table/park bench/dropped it in the lake/dog would have chewed it, etc..


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## KMPhotos (Jun 17, 2008)

kevleviathan said:


> Having said that, I agree that this guy is a moron. He had to go into settings and turn ON data roaming, otherwise he would've had no data connection. He had it coming!


THANK YOU!
He had to go into settings and turn roaming on. Under data roaming is a nice warning about using data services when abroad and how it can be really expensive. 
This idiot should have been forced to pay the entire bill - not the $2000 it was knocked down to. Although when he was told this, he still wasn't happy. He thinks he shouldn't have to pay even though the bill's been cut by about $6000.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Data Roaming is off by default? And obviously "Turn data roaming off when abroad to avoid *substantial* roaming charges when using email, web browsing, and other data services" is in plain sight.

And he probably has made thousands extra in one month upselling cars or packages to his customers. What comes around goes around. He makes his money with packages, cell phone companies make money with roaming or data, or in this case roaming AND data.


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## jakey (Jul 8, 2008)

andreww said:


> Thats just it, when using Rogers or Virgins data roaming package as a guide we can safely say that the data this guy used was expensive, but certainly not $8000. The phone companies are f__King guys like this every day. You cant say that data has this much value for this person, and this much value to another. It costs them a certain amount per GB to deliver, in Canada for instance, Rogers delivers 6GB for $30. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that works out to about .5 cents per mb, and we know that Rogers must be making a profit on that. So how can anyone with any kind of conscience say that they are okay with this guy being charged $60 per mb?


True, but the 6GB for $30 hasn't been offered in awhile. (Those who did lock in when it was offered, such as myself on Fido, will probably keep it as long as possible.)

They make money, sure, but I remember hearing that the average usage was around 2GB per month, which is why, for instance, AT&T in the US now only offers data plans up to a max of 2GB per month. And currently on Rogers or Fido, you can get 5MB for something like $60.

$60/mb is highway robbery, admittedly, but a) the providers have boosted their rates over time, and b) the guy is a moron to use that much data while roaming.

p.s. Where the **** is the news on the iPhone 4 launch for Canada? It's too damned hot and I'm grumpy.


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## lily18 (Oct 5, 2008)

Yikes. I make sure to disable data before I even leave the country. I thought everyone knew stuff like that.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Data roaming should be OFF no matter what.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

KMPhotos said:


> THANK YOU!
> He had to go into settings and turn roaming on. Under data roaming is a nice warning about using data services when abroad and how it can be really expensive.
> This idiot should have been forced to pay the entire bill - not the $2000 it was knocked down to. Although when he was told this, he still wasn't happy. He thinks he shouldn't have to pay even though the bill's been cut by about $6000.


Virgin is cutting the guy's bill by 75% ????

Wow - pity I'm not a Virgin customer - I'd be on their back to get my bill cut by 75% as well.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I watched the CBC video of this story.

1. First and foremost, I'm sorry, but this guy is CLEARLY A MORON. I don't mean "he's not a geek like us power-users," I mean I think he would have trouble with an abacus.

2. I agree that $8000 is highway robbery and that the company that let that happen should be publicly shamed and then "adjust" it down to whatever it would have been if he had not been such a moron and signed up for a foreign data package. Under NO circumstances should this knucklehead get off scot-free, but the $2000 is definitely more like it.

3. When I walk too close the shoreline, I get a message on my phone from Fido telling me that I'm now in America, and that my text and talk rates have just gone up dramatically. I find it a little hard to believe Canada's Sarah Palin there didn't get a similar message from his phone company that he was now roaming (at the very least).

4. I trust, judging from the other Albertans on this fine forum, that not everyone there is this thick.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

chas_m said:


> 1. First and foremost, I'm sorry, but this guy is CLEARLY A MORON.


So in Canada one now has to be a Moron to make the national news.

Well - I guess that's not really new come to think of it.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

chas_m said:


> I watched the CBC video of this story.
> 
> 3. When I walk too close the shoreline, I get a message on my phone from Fido telling me that I'm now in America, and that my text and talk rates have just gone up dramatically. I find it a little hard to believe Canada's Sarah Palin there didn't get a similar message from his phone company that he was now roaming (at the very least).


Even a warning like that is misleading without clarifying it with a dollar amount. Say I roam in to the states, and have an important message that I want to send. I'd figure it would be an expensive text and send it anyway, figuring that a couple of dollars would probably cover it. They could however, bill me for whatever they please, possibly hundreds of dollars! That is just BS, and total robbery. 

As to the guy being a moron, that really doesn't matter. There are plenty of dim people out there with phones, they should be protected.


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## thadley (Jul 8, 2008)

dona83 said:


> Data Roaming is off by default? And obviously "Turn data roaming off when abroad to avoid *substantial* roaming charges when using email, web browsing, and other data services" is in plain sight.
> 
> And he probably has made thousands extra in one month upselling cars or packages to his customers. What comes around goes around. He makes his money with packages, cell phone companies make money with roaming or data, or in this case roaming AND data.


Yeah, I was thinking, doesn't the iPhone have a popup when you go into roaming that warns you about data roaming? Or you get a text from Rogers or something? I'd assume Virgin has the same thing.

Quick link I'd share: Giz did an article a while back explaining why roaming charges cost as much as they do. Basically; the foreign carrier can and does screw the local carrier and vice versa. Apparently the way they do the billing the kind of complex.

Agreed, I'd like it to be cheaper, but the article makes a good case as to why it is so expensive.


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## JustAMacUser (Oct 21, 2007)

andreww said:


> As to the guy being a moron, that really doesn't matter. There are plenty of dim people out there with phones, they should be protected.


I agree, the guy wasn't too bright (it would seem common knowledge that roaming data is expensive--heck, roaming anything can be expensive). Nevertheless, the carrier should have some safe-guards in place.

My credit card company calls to confirm certain transactions that are outside of my normal spending--detailing the amount(s) and place(s) of the transaction(s). I think it should be reasonable for cell carriers to do the same: Have some software that monitors each user's habitual use; when a deviation occurs, suspend the account before the balance owning ends up being 100,000% percent of what's normal for that customer.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2010)

I think there was just some sort of regulation passed like that in the UK, that after you hit 50 euro in roaming/data charges they suspend your account until they can contact you. They really should have something like this in place for the "moron in a hurry" like this guy obviously was ... he did have to specifically enable data roaming in the first pace, despite the warnings on the phone ... but yes they should have some sort of stopper in place, the problem is where and who's responsibility is it? It would almost have to fall under the control of the telco that the user would be roaming with, which would make it very tricky.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

Data roaming is MOST DEFINITELY OFF by default. He's just whining.


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## Speediakal (Jun 9, 2008)

I can't believe people don't understand this concept yet. He has to of turn Data Roaming on for this to work. I can't believe that people even use Data Roaming. Isn't it cheaper to buy a SIM card overseas and use the data there?

This guy is utterly stupid. The translator is free, the connection to the internet to translate isn't. are you ****ing kidding me? How dumb can this guy be? And on top of it he streams radio...I'm surprised Darwin hasn't stepped in yet.

People are too careless in this world. When you go on vacation, you should research everything. This guy deserves to pay the whole $8K. Streaming radio for 5 hours at probably around 128kbps (16KBps) is gunna cost you big bucks. $0.80 a second. (Virgin says it's roaming is $0.05/KB). $48 a minute. $2880 an hour. Plus on top of that internet access for the translator. This guy is just whining his ass off 'cause he made a mistake.

This is like if I killed someone in France and came home and then was shocked to find the police knocking on my door and arresting me.


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## lnorman (Nov 12, 2007)

It seems I'm the only one on here with just a tiny shred of sympathy.
Should he have known better? probably. Is it his responsibility? Of course. But there should also be some element of fairness in pricing. And this seems to be absent here. These charges do not reflect a fair value, they are punitive and unreasonable. If I pull into a downtown parking spot and the attendant says, "by the way parking here can be expensive", if I find when I leave it cost $20 rather than $10 which might be usual in that part of the city, well, I was warned. But if instead the cost is $500, well that just isn't right.


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## Thundaboom (Jul 8, 2010)

See this is the reason why I turn off my iPhone 95% off the time on vacations.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

lnorman said:


> It seems I'm the only one on here with just a tiny shred of sympathy.
> Should he have known better? probably. Is it his responsibility? Of course. But there should also be some element of fairness in pricing. And this seems to be absent here. These charges do not reflect a fair value, they are punitive and unreasonable. If I pull into a downtown parking spot and the attendant says, "by the way parking here can be expensive", if I find when I leave it cost $20 rather than $10 which might be usual in that part of the city, well, I was warned. But if instead the cost is $500, well that just isn't right.


A number of people have already said that he shouldn't be charged $8000 but rather what the international roaming packages cost. So, no, you're not the only one with a tiny shred of sympathy. 

The guy is still an idiot though.


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## Speediakal (Jun 9, 2008)

lnorman said:


> It seems I'm the only one on here with just a tiny shred of sympathy.
> Should he have known better? probably. Is it his responsibility? Of course. But there should also be some element of fairness in pricing. And this seems to be absent here. These charges do not reflect a fair value, they are punitive and unreasonable. If I pull into a downtown parking spot and the attendant says, "by the way parking here can be expensive", if I find when I leave it cost $20 rather than $10 which might be usual in that part of the city, well, I was warned. But if instead the cost is $500, well that just isn't right.


It's not like Virgin doesn't show what their Data Roaming rates are. It's posted on their website and most likely in their brochures.

This guy deserves to pay every penny. He should've looked up Data Roaming rates. 100% his fault.

Your story should go more like this:
" If I pull into a downtown parking spot and the attendant says, "by the way parking here can be expensive*, it's $100/hour*", if I find when I leave it cost *$500, then that's what I should then pay*."

I don't know why people are surprised by this, the rate is shown, he got charged by the advertised Data Roaming rate by Virgin. There were no hidden costs.


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## lnorman (Nov 12, 2007)

jawknee said:


> A number of people have already said that he shouldn't be charged $8000 but rather what the international roaming packages cost. So, no, you're not the only one with a tiny shred of sympathy.
> 
> The guy is still an idiot though.


It's a long thread, I missed the posts that said the same thing.

Using his phone for data with no plan was careless, and an expensive mistake. It might be that this guy is a Moron, it might be that he really is very stupid. It might also be that he is a regular guy who did something careless. Nobody else on here ever done something careless before?, (besides the morons I mean). The reason it makes a news story is that the outcome of his mistake is expensive out of proportion to the mistake itself. This is due to lack of fairness in the costs of roaming data charges. You think maybe some of the $6000 Virgin is giving away on this is because they realize the PR impact of the exposure of this unfairness might hurt them, or do you think this corporation just really feels bad for this "Moron" and wants to do something nice for him?
Displaying unfair fees in advance might give you the legal right to collect them, but it doesn't make them fair.


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