# Able limbed drivers abusing disabled parking permits



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

seems a high correlation between price of car and having a permit under false pretenses

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/175536

i do park illegally and risk (and usually get) a ticket but NEVER have I taken up a handicapped parking spot


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

Just remember that not all handicaps are immediately visible.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

The stipulation for handicap in a parking scenario is not based on visible handicap. My wife was issued a temporary handicap after a very serious knee injury and the only real criteria on the application form was related to the persons ability to move a certain distance in a given amount of time. At first I thought that an odd basis but in reality it is a determination of a persons ability to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. The criteria was quite simplistic and practically any leg related injury (even minor sprains would qualify) but you do need a doctor's note indicating that the condition is real and not going away any time soon. As a driver I could get a handicap sticker if my child suffers an injury or I am required to drive anyone with a certified handicap condition (senior, etc.) as well.

All of this is not to say that abuse doesn't occur. I have seen many drivers who use the certificate when the handicapped party is not present. Having had a temporary need for the certificate I fully understand why others get so upset about folks pulling this one. I have even confronted drivers on this issue by politely asking if they are picking someone up as they speedily walk away from their vehicle. Misuse is a basis for cancellation of the certificate and can be reported.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

I used to drive my mother around all the time before she passed, she had a handicap permit and really needed it. There were countless times I would see people abuse this right, I would watch them effortlessly get out of their cars/trucks/SUV's without the aid of a wheelchair, walker, cane, or even a person, while I would struggle to get my mother out of the car. If you don't need any of those to aid you in walking then you don't need a permit, if you can walk around a mall fine then you can walk the extra amount to a regular parking spot. Really if a person can drive a car without it having modifications to aid in your disability, you really don't need the permit.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

Heart condition which limits walking to a few dozen or hundred feet, for example of a non-visible handicap. 

Also, the handicapped person does not have to be the driver, but could be a passenger. 

Obviously, the rules state that the handicapped decal may only be used when the handicapped person is in the car and in need of the benefit.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

My girlfriends mother is handicapped and when someone is parked in a handicapped parking spot
that doesn't have a permit then she toothpicks them.
(She puts toothpicks in their car door locks)

Dave


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## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

I enjoy the Star as compared to some other papers, but they do like resorting to the sensationalist-style journalism to get Torontonians going...


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

CanadaRAM said:


> Just remember that not all handicaps are immediately visible.


is selfishness now a handicap?


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

CanadaRAM said:


> Heart condition which limits walking to a few dozen or hundred feet, for example of a non-visible handicap.


Sure, but if you can't walk around too much then you should then be using personal mobility vehical, and not park in a disabled parking spot and then walk around in Costco for 2 hours. 

These people in the article with knee replacements is just wrong, especially if they are working on it all day. If you are still rehabbing, fine, but fully recovered, is just ignorant, I don't care how cold it gets.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

An interesting editorial in the Star today. It seems Ontario has issued *500,000* permits, including *78,000* in Toronto.
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/176072

Thses are the latest stats I could find for the rest of Canada. (Interesting, no number of permits is listed for Ontario.)

British Columbia 90,000 valid permits
Alberta 70,000 valid permits
Saskatchewan 30,000 valid permits
Manitoba 25,000 valid permits
Quebec 92,000 valid permits
New Brunswick 7,500 valid permits
Nova Scotia 6,500 valid permits
Prince Edward Island 3,000 valid permits
Newfoundland & Labrador 10,000 valid permits
Northwest Territories 230 valid permits
Yukon 400 valid permits
Nunavut 0

http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/acc/accf/accessECMTagreement.htm

There are, if the number are anywhere accurate, more handicapped drivers in Ontario than the rest of Canada *combined*. I think Ontario has a problem with their system or a hugely disproportional mumber of disabled people. 
(Example Ontario 12,687,000 people = 500 000 permits / Quebec 7,651,500 people = 92 000 permits )


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

JumboJones said:


> Sure, but if you can't walk around too much then you should then be using personal mobility vehical, and not park in a disabled parking spot and then walk around in Costco for 2 hours.


Wow! Who's jumping to conclusions here?!?

There are a number of conditions that leave a person perfectly fit to drive, but with limited personal mobility. You don't propose that all of those people should trade their cars in for motorized wheelchairs, do you? Think of the mess on the 405... 



> These people in the article with knee replacements is just wrong, especially if they are working on it all day. If you are still rehabbing, fine, but fully recovered, is just ignorant, I don't care how cold it gets.


My point is: don't presume to judge the person who is getting out of a vehicle with a handicapped sticker who does not have an obvious visible handicap. You don't know if they are going to Costo to shop for 2 hours, or hobble to the Pharmacy for their medication. You don't know if they are recovered or not. 

Yes there are people who will abuse it. But don't assume everybody does.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... There were countless times I would see people abuse this right, I would watch them effortlessly get out of their cars/trucks/SUV's without the aid of a wheelchair, walker, cane, or even a person, while I would struggle to get my mother out of the car. ..."

We don't know for sure simply by observation that they are abusing it. Do you expect that a handicapped person would be waiting in the parking lot for their ride from a relative?

If they have the permit, they have the permit. There's not much you can or should do about it. We can't know everything about people's circumstances.

If they don't have a permit, and park in the handicapped spot, get on your cellphone and get them a ticket. If your municipality offers an early payment discount for parking tickets, lobby your civic administration to remove that discount for illegally parking in handicapped spaces.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

gordguide said:


> " We don't know for sure simply by observation that they are abusing it. Do you expect that a handicapped person would be waiting in the parking lot for their ride from a relative?
> 
> If they have the permit, they have the permit. There's not much you can or should do about it. We can't know everything about people's circumstances.
> 
> If they don't have a permit, and park in the handicapped spot, get on your cellphone and get them a ticket. If your municipality offers an early payment discount for parking tickets, lobby your civic administration to remove that discount for illegally parking in handicapped spaces.


Ontario seems to have a disproportionally large number of permits for their population compared to the rest of Canada. This leads to one of two conclusions. Either Ontario has more handicapped people that in all the rest of Canada combined or there is a fundamental problem with how permits are issued. 

We all understand, I think, that not all handicaps are readily visible. The point of the story in the Star was that too many people seem to have permits when there was no real justification medically for them. The one for a person who broke her leg a year age but still had a permit valid for, what, two more years was an example.

Handicap permits are there for people who really need them. Based on the story and the sheer number of permits that have been issued there would seem to be a very large number of people who are in possession of permits for no real medically valid reason. This in turn deprives those who are trully handicapped of the opportunity to use the spaces. Ontario needs to do a proper investigation, remove those permits that are not medically valid, and tighten up what seems to be a very loose system for issuing permits.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

CanadaRAM said:


> You don't know if they are going to Costo to shop for 2 hours, or hobble to the Pharmacy for their medication.


You can certainly notice a hobble, most people who abuse the system don't even make the effort to go that far. And yes if you see the person in line 2 hours later I do know how long they were there.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Instead of all this politically correct worrying about whether someone might have a hidden handicap or not, I favour the insane mob violence approach, such as in the episode of Seinfeld where George parks in a handicap spot, and his car gets trashed by enraged mall patrons. That'll learn'm, eh?


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## i<3myiBookg4 (Mar 17, 2006)

I had a knee injury and used a cane for a bit. I didn't get a disabled parking permit though, it seemed like too much of a hassle. It happened right when I started community college. People are very rude. Just walking around school took me forever and I had people slam doors in my face and everything while I was trying my best to carry my books without dropping them! I finally decided I had to make some arrangement in the parking lot, it was near impossible to get a space (they had so many school parking permits and you had to have one to use the parking lot, but for some reason there were hardly ever any empty spaces). So they made me a sign for the car. It helped so much, and as soon as I was better, I gave it back. After that experience, it was like living someone else's life for awhile. It was so hard.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... Ontario needs to do a proper investigation, remove those permits that are not medically valid, and tighten up what seems to be a very loose system for issuing permits. ..."

That's exactly right. Judging by the comments here, I'm confident that all the Ontario residents here have already phoned their MPP? Right?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

i<3myiBookg4 said:


> People are very rude. Just walking around school took me forever and I had people slam doors in my face


No they didn't. They just didn't notice you. Nobody slams a door in somebody else's face when they have a cane. Paging Dr. Drama Queen.



gordguide said:


> " ... Ontario needs to do a proper investigation, remove those permits that are not medically valid, and tighten up what seems to be a very loose system for issuing permits. ..."
> 
> That's exactly right. Judging by the comments here, I'm confident that all the Ontario residents here have already phoned their MPP? Right?


This is exactly what we need. Our government has TONS of money for this type of thing. If we can spend an extra million or so cracking down on this, well, we might lose a program or two, but at least people with handicaps will be able to park two spots closer!

Why do we need handicap parking anyway?

Banking? Everything can be done online. It's the 21st century.
Grocery shopping? Shop online.
The Mall? If you are fit enough to walk around the mall, you are fit enough to walk across a parking lot. But, but,but...I need that dress on sale at Holt Renfrew!
Hospitals? I'm figuring if you are parking at the hospital, the majority need a close parking space, not a select few.

I knew a guy who had one of those "non-visible" handicaps. Bad knee or whatever. He would park on the street, right in front of the office front door, and not pay parking, because he could. He would walk 7 blocks in the morning for his Starbucks, but would tie up a parking spot our clients could have used. Nice!

NOTE: I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I don't hate handicap people. Well, not all of them anyway.


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## i<3myiBookg4 (Mar 17, 2006)

Of course they seen me, I am not invisible and they rushed past me.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

i<3myiBookg4 said:


> Of course they seen me, I am not invisible and they rushed past me.


And they looked at you, saw that cane in your hand, and SLAMMED the door in your face. Mr. Drama Queen...it's time for your closeup!

If you honestly think anonymous people should pay attention to you, you need a reality check.

Oh, and grammar counts - "saw", not "seen".


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## i<3myiBookg4 (Mar 17, 2006)

guytoronto said:


> And they looked at you, saw that cane in your hand, and SLAMMED the door in your face. Mr. Drama Queen...it's time for your closeup!
> 
> If you honestly think anonymous people should pay attention to you, you need a reality check.
> 
> Oh, and grammar counts - "saw", not "seen".


I'm not a mister.
My profile picture is of me, and do you think I am that ugly?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

i<3myiBookg4 said:


> I'm not a mister.
> My profile picture is of me, and do you think I am that ugly?


I don't make it a point to read people's profiles. If you want your gender to be properly identified, maybe put your picture up as your avatar, or select an avatar that implies you are female.

Still, you are a drama queen if you honestly think people you don't know intentionally close the door in your face.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> No they didn't. They just didn't notice you. Nobody slams a door in somebody else's face when they have a cane. Paging Dr. Drama Queen.
> 
> This is exactly what we need. Our government has TONS of money for this type of thing. If we can spend an extra million or so cracking down on this, well, we might lose a program or two, but at least people with handicaps will be able to park two spots closer!
> 
> ...


You are right. People just don't notice handicapped people. They become invisible. People avert their eyes or just ignore you. I know someone who has to use a walker. She opened a bathroom door in a public washroom and was trying to get out. Several people used that as an opportunity to push their way passed as if she was holding the door open just for them and not struggling to keep it open so she could manouver her walker out. Also some people rush to get to a door first but not to hold it open, of course. That said, there are some decent people out there who will notice people who are handicapped and act with courtesy and decency. Too bad they weren't all like that.

You say you are "just playing devil's advocate here." If you really knew anyone who was genuinely handicapped, I suspect you wouldn't be playing " devil's advocate". If you had to deal with a real handicap yorself, you would know what they were really going through and would understand that most would give up their permit in a second if they could go back to living a normal life with normal mobility. 

And yes, Ontario should spend the money to reform their system. As it is, there system is morally indefensible if there are hundreds or thousands of people who have been issued permits frivolously or without valid reason.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Voyager said:


> You say you are "just playing devil's advocate here." If you really knew anyone who was genuinely handicapped, I suspect you wouldn't be playing " devil's advocate". If you had to deal with a real handicap yorself, you would know what they were really going through and would understand that most would give up their permit in a second if they could go back to living a normal life with normal mobility.


Oh, get off your high horse.



Voyager said:


> And yes, Ontario should spend the money to reform their system. As it is, there system is morally indefensible if there are hundreds or thousands of people who have been issued permits frivolously or without valid reason.


Sounds like a sure fire way to waste tax-payer dollars. Lord knows we have lots of money to throw around.


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## i<3myiBookg4 (Mar 17, 2006)

Voyager said:


> You say you are "just playing devil's advocate here." If you really knew anyone who was genuinely handicapped, I suspect you wouldn't be playing " devil's advocate". If you had to deal with a real handicap yorself, you would know what they were really going through and would understand that most would give up their permit in a second if they could go back to living a normal life with normal mobility.


I have to agree with this statement. Having a temporary injury really opened my eyes.

Ignorance is so rampant.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Oh, get off your high horse.


That's it? That's your retort? 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retort

I expected a bit more. 



guytoronto said:


> Sounds like a sure fire way to waste tax-payer dollars. Lord knows we have lots of money to throw around.


As opposed to funding a program that seems to have more more holes in it than swiss cheese? Or might it be preferable to just do away with the program and leave people with few alternatives to get out?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Voyager said:


> That's it? That's your retort?


Fine. I was just throwing out the "devil's advocate" position for the hell of it, but I guess you really want to push the issue.

I don't like it when the minority dictates majority.

The movie theatre near Yonge and Bloor had to shut down because it would have been too expensive to make it handicap accessible. Since they were required by law to do so, they decided the most financially sound option was to shut down. People out of work. A local landmark gone. Yay for progress!

A few years back a strip club in the US had to scrap its "stripper showers on stage" performance, because local law dictated that any public shower MUST be handicap accessible. The strip club would have had to put a wheelchair ramp to the stage just to satisfy the law. Yay for progress!

I have no problems with handicap spaces. I have no problems with people being heavily fined for using such spaces. I do have a problem when handicap people think the rest of the world should bend over backwards to solve their most minor inconvenience.

"Oh...there should be a big government investigation into illegal handicap parking permits. I don't care how much money it costs. I'm handicap. Look at me. Wa wa wa!"

Ya, I feel for you. I hold doors open for people who have problems with them. I stand up to let women and children have my seat on the subway. But I have a big problem with people wanting to waste tax-payer money because a few people nab parking spots closer to the mall. Life ain't fair. Deal with it.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

guytoronto, the thread started by MACSPECTRUM was in regards to able-bodied people abusing disabled parking permits. But, since you've widened it, let's go from there.

People have become disabled, usually through no fault of their own. Life can be hard enough when people have to live with diseases such as muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis, or have had accidents that reduce their ability to function normally. Does that mean they no longer have the right to live? That they have to stay home so the government and society doesn't have to fork out some money to make accomodations? Why should they be deprived of the things that the rest of us take for granted. Remember, they pay taxes too. 

I will agree with you that governments sometimes go too far in mandating things without considering all of the ramifications. But don't blame the disabled if things are taken to an extent you consider too far. Most, I suspect, only want reasonable accomodations so they can lead a somewhat more normal life. 

And you're right, life isn't fair but people never asked to have the handicaps they do have. Just be thankful if you don't need to use any of the adapted facilities or services. And you just might want to pray, metaphorically speaking of course, that you never will.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

just have people renew their handicap permit every 6 months with an interview like one would renew their passport

2 years is too long for "sprained ankles" and such

i would think the truly disabled would be up in arms over "pretend" or "former" disabled still using their handicap parking permits for conditions that were once valid


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Voyager said:


> guytoronto, the thread started by MACSPECTRUM was in regards to able-bodied people abusing disabled parking permits. But, since you've widened it, let's go from there.


I'm not the one who widened it. Read back in the thread.



Voyager said:


> People have become disabled, usually through no fault of their own. Life can be hard enough when people have to live with diseases such as muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis, or have had accidents that reduce their ability to function normally. Does that mean they no longer have the right to live?


Who the heck said that? Have you gone off the deep end?



Voyager said:


> Does that mean that they have to stay home so the government and society doesn't have to fork out some money to make accommodations? Why should they be deprived of the things that the rest of us take for granted. Remember, they pay taxes too.


Why should they be deprived? Because they are. The same way a poor person is deprived of steak dinners. The same way a dumb person is deprived of being a doctor. The same way a 90lb weakling is deprived of being a fireman. The same way a blind person is deprived of being able to drive themselves about.

Wait! We should have a government program where every blind person is issued a car and chauffeur!



Voyager said:


> I will agree with you that governments sometimes go too far in mandating things without considering all of the ramifications. But don't blame the disabled if things are taken to an extent you consider too far.


Things don't happen in a vacuum. If people never complained, things would never change. Who do you think complains? The people who are deprived! I'm all for making their lives a little easier. We've gone too far on some issues. 



Voyager said:


> Most, I suspect, only want reasonable accommodations so they can lead a somewhat more normal life.


And how does a parking spot 100 metres closer to the mall doors do that?



Voyager said:


> And you're right, life isn't fair but people never asked to have the handicaps they do have. Just be thankful if you don't need to use any of the adapted facilities or services. And you just might want to pray, metaphorically speaking of course, that you never will.


I hope I never will indeed.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Who the heck said that? Have you gone off the deep end?





> Why do we need handicap parking anyway?
> 
> Banking? Everything can be done online. It's the 21st century.
> Grocery shopping? Shop online.
> ...


Look familiar?




guytoronto said:


> Why should they be deprived? Because they are. The same way a poor person is deprived of steak dinners. The same way a dumb person is deprived of being a doctor. The same way a 90lb weakling is deprived of being a fireman. The same way a blind person is deprived of being able to drive themselves about.


And accomodations are made.The poor are given welfare. No steak, but more food on the table than they ever earned by their own labour. The dumb person is still given an education so they can function up to their limits, using public money. 




guytoronto said:


> Things don't happen in a vacuum. If people never complained, things would never change. Who do you think complains? The people who are deprived! I'm all for making their lives a little easier. We've gone too far on some issues.


Your too far is someone else's not far enough. That's also life.




guytoronto said:


> And how does a parking spot 100 metres closer to the mall doors do that?


As opposed to a parking spot at the other end of the shopping centre parking lot? For some people that's about as far, or greater, that they can walk without having to rest. I haven't noticed too many benches in parking lots. Also in cities, parking lots can be quite a distance from stores.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> just have people renew their handicap permit every 6 months with an interview like one would renew their passport
> 
> 2 years is too long for "sprained ankles" and such
> 
> i would think the truly disabled would be up in arms over "pretend" or "former" disabled still using their handicap parking permits for conditions that were once valid


That's a really good idea MACSPECTRUM. Maybe permits need to be divided into temporary and permanent ones, the temporary ones needing renewal after a predetermined amount of time.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

guytoronto said:


> Wait! We should have a government program where every blind person is issued a car and chauffeur!


No, but tax payers money does go towards seeing eye dogs, and special taxi services for the blind/disabled. Maybe we should stop waisting our time and tax money on those too. I'm glad other peoples misery is something you can make light of, must make you feel like a big man.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

JumboJones said:


> No, but tax payers money does go towards seeing eye dogs, and special taxi services for the blind/disabled. Maybe we should stop waisting our time and tax money on those too. I'm glad other peoples misery is something you can make light of, must make you feel like a big man.


That's weak. There is a difference between helping those in need and wasting taxpayers money.

Handicap people get their parking spots. Yes, some people abuse the system. We do not need to waste taxpayer dollars investigating people who are illegally parking beside a mall entrance.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... Maybe permits need to be divided into temporary and permanent ones, the temporary ones needing renewal after a predetermined amount of time. ..."

Well, I know they are in Saskatchewan. You need an annual form filled out by your doctor (and I believe the doctor charges for filling out the form, as well, which is not a violation of the Canada Health Act). Perhaps that hints as to why there seems to be so many Ontario permits?


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... Maybe permits need to be divided into temporary and permanent ones, the temporary ones needing renewal after a predetermined amount of time. ..."

Well, I know they are in Saskatchewan because I remember my dad having to renew his (and if he had to renew it I'm pretty sure everyone does; his legs were never going to grow back).

There are temporary permits that expire based on what your doctor says (could be one week, 30 days, 20 weeks, etc) and permanent permits that also must be renewed annually.

Only a physician can fill out the form, and it's typical that doctors here charge extra to fill out such forms (charging patients for forms is allowed under the Canada Health Act, by the way).

There is also the "Parking Placard Enforcement Committee" made up of (designated, approved) members of the public and reporting to the Saskatchewan Abilities Council, which has a priority relationship with parking enforcement officers.

Not only are most permits temporary, in Saskatchewan most handicapped parking spaces are temporary: anyone with a placard can apply to have a space on public roads in front of their home or workplace designated for as long as it's required. When there is no longer a permit holder at that location or residence, the parking space reverts to whatever it was previously. These also must be re-applied for annually or expire if the permit is temporary.

Maximum parking in any handicapped space, even for permit holders, is 24 hours. Designated spaces may have shorter maximum times, and if so they will be posted beneath the sign.

Parking is within the civic domain, so fines vary by municipality. In Regina the fine is $100 with a guilty/early payment reduction to $60. In Saskatoon the fine is $100 with a guilty/early payment reduction to $40. Most other parking violations in Saskatoon are $40 with a discount to $6.

The rules for a permit are based on the ability (or inability) to travel 50 meters (164 feet) unaided or without endangering a risk to health, and there is provision to consider snow and ice, so that some people can get temporary permits in winter. Of course, in winter Saskatoon streets are never down to bare pavement; winter always means walking on snow and ice every day. That would not be the case in Vancouver or Toronto.

Most permit holders who appear able bodied are recovering from heart or lung surgery or suffer from pulminory or cardiac disease, I'm told.

When I checked the Saskatchewan Abilities Council's information on the Enforcement Committee, I found they have some further information that might shed some light on the post.

They note that Handicapped Permits are only for permit holders traveling alone. If someone is driving or assisting you, the driver is required to drop the permit holder directly at an appropriate close location: eg: curbside, the entrance to a Mall or building, or a loading zone, and then park in a regular, non-designated spot, leaving the handicapped spot for someone traveling alone.

Able bodied helpers or drivers are not allowed to park in a handicapped spot, whether they are carrying a permit holder or not.

The handicapped person may be required to wait while the able bodied person parks, if assistance is needed within the destination. He or she may then retrieve the vehicle and again pick up the handicapped person while waiting at curbside, etc.

Parking tickets will not be given when assisting a handicapped person enter the vehicle if, for example, you are parked in a loading zone without the correct commercial or delivery license plate.

Of course, your regulations will depend on provincial legislation. Again, if you feel the regs are deficient somehow, contact your member of the legislature.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Voyager said:


> That's a really good idea MACSPECTRUM. Maybe permits need to be divided into temporary and permanent ones, the temporary ones needing renewal after a predetermined amount of time.


i think all permits should be subject to renewal
if you're too ill to renew a permit, maybe you're too ill to drive a car?

6 months for everyone

just think of all the civil servant jobs this will create !!!
where do i file my application?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

For all the authentic (although illegally used) permits, I wonder how many fake permits are out there.

The permit doesn't look too difficult to forge. I imagine there are a few people with computers in their basements charging $100 a pop for these things.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> For all the authentic (although illegally used) permits, I wonder how many fake permits are out there.
> 
> The permit doesn't look too difficult to forge. I imagine there are a few people with computers in their basements charging $100 a pop for these things.


I wouldn't be surprised if technology is out there that will allow the government to create a permit that is tamper proof - ie. it can't be easily copied. Also, if permits came with an ID number on them ( I know in Quebec they do) the numbers can be put into an accessable data base so police could easily check to see if they are valid. That might cut down on forgeries.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i think all permits should be subject to renewal
> if you're too ill to renew a permit, maybe you're too ill to drive a car?
> 
> 6 months for everyone
> ...


I can only go by the way things are done in Quebec. Permits, at least for permanent ones, are renewable every five years. However when a person is issued a permit, there are also yearly forms to be filled out by medical professionals to attest to that person's ability to safely drive a car. 

Also the permit is issued to the person so whether he/she drives is irelevant since the permit is to aid in that person's mobility. It can be used in any vehicle the handicapped person is in at the time. I believe that aspect also applies in Ontario.

I think, personally, some serious enforcement and tightening up of the issuing of permits is what needs to be done to minimize misuse. If anyone is found to have used a forgery, it, if it is not already done so, should be treated in the same category as forging official government documents such as birth certificates or drivers licences.


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## VO1NFLD (Jan 27, 2007)

If your disabled and are able to drive and walk around a store i think your able to walk a few more feet from your car . They no longer ticket people in the disabled spots here . and they no long issue the permits IIRC .


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Voyager said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if technology is out there that will allow the government to create a permit that is tamper proof - ie. it can't be easily copied. Also, if permits came with an ID number on them ( I know in Quebec they do) the numbers can be put into an accessable data base so police could easily check to see if they are valid. That might cut down on forgeries.


Seems like a lot of money and effort to combat a relatively small problem. A certificate simply has to pass a visual inspection, through the windshield of a car.

For police to be able to search an online database, it would require them to go back to their cruiser to key the number in. 99.99% of cops and parking enforcment officials aren't going to bother checking the validity of a permit if it looks genuine. It would be a waste of money to implement such a system.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

guytoronto said:


> Seems like a lot of money and effort to combat a relatively small problem.


I'm guessing this is coming from a person who doesn't need one, I'm sure you would feel different if the shoe was on the other foot.



guytoronto said:


> For police to be able to search an online database, it would require them to go back to their cruiser to key the number in. 99.99% of cops and parking enforcment officials aren't going to bother checking the validity of a permit if it looks genuine. It would be a waste of money to implement such a system.


 Um, they look up lisense plates, why is this any harder? I'm sure the powers that be can put their heads together to sovle the problem easily. Maybe they could have bar codes on them that can be scanned. Parking enforcement are very eager to ticket expired meters, they get off on giving people tickets, I'm sure this would be no different.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

JumboJones said:


> I'm guessing this is coming from a person who doesn't need one, I'm sure you would feel different if the shoe was on the other foot.
> 
> Um, they look up lisense plates, why is this any harder? I'm sure the powers that be can put their heads together to sovle the problem easily. Maybe they could have bar codes on them that can be scanned. Parking enforcement are very eager to ticket expired meters, they get off on giving people tickets, I'm sure this would be no different.


Exactly. If the fine is worthwhile, the incentive to ticket is there. And no, I suspect not everyone who has posted here has had to deal with a real-life disability.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

JumboJones and Voyager...neither of you really understand exactly how much would be involved to implement this. You both seem to think there is an "easy" solution with a justifiable cost.

Checking the validity of a parking permit is not the same as ticketing an expired parking metre.

And cops can't "look up license plates" without just cause.

Now you have the idea to "scan barcodes" through someone's windshield? That would involve a new piece of gear. More money!


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> JumboJones and Voyager...neither of you really understand exactly how much would be involved to implement this. You both seem to think there is an "easy" solution with a justifiable cost.
> 
> Checking the validity of a parking permit is not the same as ticketing an expired parking metre.
> 
> ...


What I don't like is the it may cost something so let's not do anything about it attitude. If you have any solid facts on how much it will cost, please present them. I would like to hear what the *verified* estimated costs would be. 

There are thing that can be done to tighten up the program that would not cost exorbitant amounts of money. In fact I believe the Star article mentions that governments have been promising to look into the way the program operated for decades.
Quote: (emphasis added)



> *Despite decades – yes, decades – of promising to crack down on permit cheats, Queen's Park has failed to tighten a system that clearly has become too lax.* In the wake of the Star's most recent investigation, Transportation Minister Donna Cansfield has vowed to "revisit and revise" Ontario's disabled parking permit program to weed out those who abuse it.
> 
> Cansfield should act as fast as possible. Stunningly, some 500,000 permits are in circulation in Ontario, including 78,000 in Toronto. Yet the provincial government is doing astonishingly little to police the system.


I suspect what is lacking is political will.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... And cops can't "look up license plates" without just cause. ... "

Thanks for my laugh of the day. "Just Cause" (actually it's called "probable cause", but that isn't really important) is a concept entrenched in US law, and backed by the Supreme Court in the US. It carries the weight of law in that country, and can be used as a defense, or to render inadmissible any evidence in violation, in US courts. It also is grounds for an action to redress civil rights in the US civil and criminal courts.

Canadian jails are full of people who learned their law from American TV shows.

It doesn't apply in Canada. Here, they can look up whatever, whenever. Our justice system requires we adhere to "Habeas Corpus" which means our check on abuse is satisfied by the requirement to show why we should remain in custody by an appearance in front of a judge within 24 hours of our detainment (or more, provided all reasonable attempts were made to comply. It's rare for the police to need to ask the court's forgiveness for failing to obtain a judge's consent to custody in the recommended time, but it is legal, if, for example, a blizzard shut down the city for a day).

The short answer is they can detain you for any reason whatsoever, including no reason whatsoever, and release you within 24 hours, and that's the end of it. There is nothing you can do about it; it's perfectly legal. They don't have to even tell you why you are being held since you haven't been actually arrested yet (the judge will demand they lay a charge or he will order you released. They don't have to propose a charge until the moment you are before a judge). Detained does not equal Arrested.

If you invite them into your home or any other place they can stay there and search all of it for as long as they like. If you refuse, they can check anything they can see from their position outside your premises. Since I can walk down a street and view license plates without too much trouble, an officer can do the same.

If they can see it, they can investigate it. If they can observe anything from a public position, they can investigate it. If a crime is in progress, they can pursue suspects to any place. Once they have been in a place, they can investigate it, and they can continue or begin any investigation they feel is warranted.

You drive on the street? Your license plate is visible to all, and therefore requires no consent to search. There is no "probable cause" in Canada, so there is no test of probable/just cause to satisfy before they search.

The most obvious example is spot checks for impaired driving. In Canada, they are inherently legal, and away we go. In the US, they are inherently illegal (no probable cause when you stop everyone) and it took years of passing state laws, fighting challenges to those laws, revising laws, fighting challenges to the revised laws, and so on, for them to become legal at all. In most states, they are barely legal and operate under very restrictive conditions. In the rest, they are completely illegal.

Even if there was a requirement for "just cause" it's moot: evidence illegally obtained is fully admissible in Canadian courts. (In the US, they are inadmissible). There is a Constitutional requirement in Canada that any illegal evidence does not "bring justice into disrepute". That is a very broad test, and basically 99% of the time, it will be admissible. An example of bringing justice into disrepute might be a police officer killing someone while posing as a hit man.

An officer searching your car trunk without permission? 100% of the time, that has been allowed in Canadian courts. That does not bring justice into disrepute; the officer did not commit what would be a serious crime by a civilian, to search your trunk.

No probable cause? If they found something, go ahead and challenge. Once the officers of the court stop laughing, it will be declared admissible.

Running a check on a license plate? That is so legal it's not even funny; no-one will even ask why, and if they did, "because I want to" is a perfectly good reason, because it's one reason more than he needs.


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

Gotta love this story in today's Star. :lmao: 

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/179466


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

Transportation Minister Donna Cansfield must cringe when she opens up the Star these days. (emphasis added)



> As a start, Cansfield should make good on her promise to *start checking disabled parking permits against the government's own death records to catch out drivers who are unlawfully using a dead person's permit.* The province's auditor general proposed exactly such a safeguard six years ago, but the transportation ministry has inexplicably failed to act.


http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/179788

Oh, and nothing the editorial suggests is going to cost a huge amount of money, only political will, updated regulations, and proper oversight.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

To gordguide: while all that is essentially true, there have been cases where police officers looked up information for personal reasons, were caught, and were subsequently disciplined. There are some checks on what they do, even if they are rarely enforced, and practically never revealed to the public.


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## Rugger (Jan 28, 2009)

*Handicapped parking permit misuse...*

Handicapped parking permit misuse...
Hi everyone,I'm new to this site,I was surfing sites regarding my topic and this site seemed to offer discussions on my subject; once I joined I could not find the topic I was interested in, so forgive me if this is posted in the wrong section.
In a nut shell, this person across the street from me is CLEARLY abusing the use of a permit. His driveway can easily accommodate 7 auto's;8 if one goes into his garage,yet he insists on parking on the street some 70 ft away from his front door,usually right on top a snow bank.
The problem I am having is that it is extremely difficult to park my truck into my driveway,and always come pretty close to hitting his van!
I tried along with other neighbors to talk to him about this issue and basically he told us all to get lost.
The Parking authority cannot tag him because of his handicapped parking permit,yet clearly he has tons of space to park on his property and a LOT closer to his front door.
I placed calls to the Parking Authority Liason office but they do not return any of the massages I have left regarding this issue.
I am beginning to suspect my best option left here is to contact "Silverman" from CTV and have him launch a public inquiry into this mess.
If anyone has any info to share or ideas please let me know,any phone numbers or government depts to follow up with would be MOST HELPFUL.
I have documented through dated and time stamped photos for the last month the room he has on his driveway while he parks on the street.
I'm just fed up with having to deal with this issue on a daily basis.
Thanking all for any help offered!
PS I'm located in East York,Toronto.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

One thing I find amusing about wanting that parking spot at the door. Many times people are fighting for them only to get out of their vehicle and walk 3 miles in circles around their favorite mega store to pick up a few things. What's an extra 100 or 200 feet across a parking lot really when you think of the acreage you'll be hiking once inside. 

Cheers
MacGuiver


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