# iPhone without a phone? Would it work.



## jdurston (Jan 28, 2005)

The iPhone is great for people who need a convergent device, but something inside me would rather the iPhone as a video iPod and Apple PDA with 802.11 wireless for some internet connectivity.

Do you think forcing people to buy into a phone and related contract is going to hurt this device's success?

It'd be cheaper too without the phone functionality.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

jdurston said:


> It'd be cheaper too without the phone functionality.


I'm not so sure of that, part of the reason the price of the iPhone is lower than I expected is because you're locked into a multi-year phone contract. Without that contract subsidy the iPhone would be at least a few hundred dollars more.


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

I really hope that a true Wifi video iPod comes to be. But Apple is going to sell tons of this iPhone device and the cellphone market worldwide is huge, so they may just never bother with it as a PMP. If you want the phone without the contract, shell out the cash. If not, get the better deal, and pay for the service monthly according to the plan. Right now, I am looking at other options. The Archos Wifi seems pretty cool. 4.5-inch widescreen at 720X480, touchscreen and web browsing, with 30GB hard drive and $30 U.S. for a replacement battery. I saw them as low as $399. I am picking up a Sony PSP as a PMP and already got the LocationFree base at a good price. The PSP is a decent option at $199. Much bigger to lug around, but good size screen and web browsing. And the memory cards have dropped in price. My 2 cents.


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## jdurston (Jan 28, 2005)

I guess a two year contract is worth $200-$300 in phone discounts. I just don't like paying monthly fees for more things than I have too and I'm not really a cell phone person. I have a Blackberry that I can use for personal use from my employer but would never pay for one myself.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Who would want a cell phone with only five hours talk time and 16 hours standby? Mine does well over 24 talk and a week standby.

If they rely on heavy cell phone users, this thing will be a total flop.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

SINC said:


> Who would want a cell phone with only five hours talk time and 16 hours standby?QUOTE]
> 
> 16 hours is quoted for music playback, not standby.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

SINC said:


> Who would want a cell phone with only five hours talk time and 16 hours standby? Mine does well over 24 talk and a week standby.
> 
> If they rely on heavy cell phone users, this thing will be a total flop.


I don't know about that. Reading news articles, checking reactions from phone manufacturers and competing companies at CES - this has gold-mine written all over it. You have to remember, no one really has got the Smart-Phone down. HP iPaq's are buggy, Palm refuses to include WiFi and Blackberry is really only tailored to corporate and none have the innovation that the iPhone includes (200 patents!). I have never seen this reaction to a product from Apple, ever from such a wide audience. This was even on the local news here at 6pm (CP24) which usually doesn't air stories like this. Interviewing common people on downtown TO streets who all knew about the announcement and most wanted one. 

I don't doubt for a second, that Apple will use this form factor and touch-screen UI for the next video iPod as long as they can keep the cost down. 

Does anyone know who is manufacturing the touch screen for Apple on these?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Fine, but I know guys who use over that five hours daily. What attraction would it have for them? Especially if they used the other functions between calls?


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

mikeinmontreal said:


> I really hope that a true Wifi video iPod comes to be. But Apple is going to sell tons of this iPhone device and the cellphone market worldwide is huge, so they may just never bother with it as a PMP. If you want the phone without the contract, shell out the cash. If not, get the better deal, and pay for the service monthly according to the plan. Right now, I am looking at other options. The Archos Wifi seems pretty cool. 4.5-inch widescreen at 720X480, touchscreen and web browsing, with 30GB hard drive and $30 U.S. for a replacement battery. I saw them as low as $399. I am picking up a Sony PSP as a PMP and already got the LocationFree base at a good price. The PSP is a decent option at $199. Much bigger to lug around, but good size screen and web browsing. And the memory cards have dropped in price. My 2 cents.


I think a new video iPod is coming... the current Video Ipod will now be lacking when the iphone is out. A new iPod would have MacOS X, Wifi, a widescreen, probably touchscreen...


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

I want to see the case that'll protect that screen. Sorry I missed your call, but I had case navigation issues.


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

And a good PIPSC discount, Kosh


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Yeah, I was actually kinda wondering the same thing... why no mention of the screen? If they had any sense.. and it seems like they do, somtimes.. they should've made that screen REPLACEABLE (modular) so that when it does get scratched up a simple replacement would bring it back to life.

I'm also a little disappointed it isn't going to be 'upgradeable', as in capacity, battery or software add-ons.. I think it's starting to look a little shortsighted now....


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

SINC said:


> Fine, but I know guys who use over that five hours daily. What attraction would it have for them? Especially if they used the other functions between calls?



I agree, there may be some battery life quirks and concerns at the beginning but the hype and momentum that this is going to produce before release in June will sell enough for Apple at launch to deem it a huge success and then improve the battery life for the next gen iPhone. iPods gained significant battery life improvements every generation. I'm not a psychic but I asked my 8-Ball 5 minutes ago and it said - "signs point to yes".


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## tintin (Sep 19, 2005)

Frankly, I think it sucks and I'm a HUGE iPod fan and mobile phone user.

Two major flaws - battery life - you could feel the air sucked out of the auditorium when Steve lauded the 5 hour talk time. No mention of modular batteries - can they be removed / charged with extras?

Second - capacity - again, dead silence for a 4 / 8GB model. WTF am I going to do with a widescreen iPod and a wimpy 8GB capacity? Maybe 5 years from now when there's enough cheap wireless bandwidth and content for streaming video/audio that doesn't eat local storage.

If you want a 3.5 inch touchscreen phone w/4GB storage etc. etc. go buy a UTStarcom 6700 and a $50 SD card. Heck, spend more and put an 8GB SD card in it. Removable battery, great screen, sliding keyboard or on-screen keyboard, full HTML browser (what's this 'first HTML browser' BS?), POP email etc. etc. etc.

This is Apple playing MAJOR catch-up with Microsoft on the smartphone front. For $600 US I expect WAY more. Yes, it has a wicked UI, and looks sleek. Just wait till you hold it up to your sweaty face for a 10 minute phone call and it cooks the side of your head with the heat the CPU will generate and your DNA is left all over that magic touchscreen.

And what, no camera? Who makes a phone without a freakin camera these days?

This is the Newton of the 21st century.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

well the bigger problem is 5 hours battery life for talk time OR movies OR browsing.

So don't load on and watch a 2.5 hour movie if you plan on talking later, don't surf for too long if you plan on watching TV shows and don't get stuck on a call with your lonely Aunt Frida if you plan on calling your chatterbox girlfriend later.


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## MBPlover (Oct 22, 2006)

tintin said:


> And what, no camera? Who makes a phone without a freakin camera these days?
> 
> This is the Newton of the 21st century.


The iPhone does have a camera, it's located at the back of the phone in the top left hand corner (it's a 2mp without a flash).


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## Mrsam (Jan 14, 2006)

Seriously why is 5 hours talk time such a big problem? I get 2 hours 2.5 MAX on my blackberry pearl.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

tintin said:


> Frankly, I think it sucks and I'm a HUGE iPod fan and mobile phone user.
> 
> Two major flaws - battery life - you could feel the air sucked out of the auditorium when Steve lauded the 5 hour talk time. No mention of modular batteries - can they be removed / charged with extras?
> 
> ...


Comes with a 2 megapixel camera. 

MotoQ - 3.9 hours of talktime 
Samsung BlackJack - 5.5 hours of talktime
HP hw6945 - 4 hours of talktime
Cingular 8525 - 4 hours of talktime
I would say 5 hours talktime is above average no?

I'm sure the FCC will not approve the product in the next two months if it brands your face with Widget imprints.

It's not a SmartPhone, it's an iPod with phone/communicator functions. Windows Mobile 5.0 is finally less buggy then all previous versions which were a joke. I don't see much catching up to do. Palm OS is much better then Windows Mobile.

I have issues with;

No expandable memory.
No removable battery.
No Exchange or Office support.

But it won't stop me from buying it as I would never spend $749.99 on a iPaq hw6955 (Rogers no contract).


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

I'm surprised no one has said this yet ........
........4GB or 8GB??? Does this seem a little light for a device that touts a sharp, bright screen, perfect for video playback? I can honestly say I was expecting a much larger capacity.....I cannot squeeze the video content that I want on my 30GB iPod 5.5G.


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

DrewNL said:


> I'm surprised no one has said this yet ........
> ........4GB or 8GB??? Does this seem a little light for a device that touts a sharp, bright screen, perfect for video playback? I can honestly say I was expecting a much larger capacity.....I cannot squeeze the video content that I want on my 30GB iPod 5.5G.


If it gets 5 hours video playback with solid-state flash memory I can't imagine how little playback time it would get with a hard-drive.


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

I agree totally on that. So it seems that we've determined that the battery is one MAJOR flaw with this thing. I personally won't be buying it....I've no apparent use for a PDA, I have an iPod that suits my video watching needs much better than this (due to capacity and battery life) and lastly, I have no desire to involve myself in any way with Rogers.


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## macguy.nielsen (Sep 18, 2004)

I think this is a great phone, now one thing you have to remember is that this is a first gen system, which honestly...hit the mark for the marjority of people. They are marketing towards the smartphone crowd not the kiddies that want to be stylish with a krazr. 

I have been looking at getting a blackberry 8703e for my photography business and as soon as I saw the iPhone knew that was my phone that I needed.

My only issue:

USA - June
Europe - 4th Quarter
Asia - 2008
Canada - ? Very small market compared to those other ones.

Steve wants a 1% market share very quickly so of course they would go after the largest markets first. I don't see the iPhone coming to Canada anytime soon unfortantely...


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## tedj (Sep 9, 2004)

oh, c'mon. Every Apple fan has gossiped for almost a year-- maybe more-- with bated breath for the "iPhone" and now that its here, with the long-awaited touchscreeen, we must complain about the (most necessarily) limited battery life?! It plays videos and text-messages and Google-earths, oh my!


Let us praise Stevus awhile before we start to complain that it takes batteries to do such miraculous works.


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## phuviano (Sep 14, 2005)

SINC said:


> Who would want a cell phone with only five hours talk time and 16 hours standby? Mine does well over 24 talk and a week standby.
> 
> If they rely on heavy cell phone users, this thing will be a total flop.


24 hour talk time?? I'll calling bs on that. what phone do you have?? I just went to palm's website, and the treo 750 is rated @ 4 hours of talk time. 

I also took a quick glance at nokia's website, and I did a phone comparison on their site with random nokia phones. I looked at all the rated talk times, and they were all around 4 hours. 

Tell, me what phone you have, and show me proof of this so called 24 hour talk time.


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## optical (Dec 31, 2006)

I think it's funny how history repeats itself. Take a look at all of the comments made on the original slashdot.org article about the original ipod launch from 2001. Complaint after complaint after complaint with the occasional "sounds cool" tossed in there. Honestly I'm going to keep my mouth shut until I have a finished product in my hands.


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

I remember on the anniversary of the iPod recently I made fun of a lot of the comments that were made back in 2001. To this end, I've been very careful with my comments on the iPhone. I've not suggested that it will fail or that its a white elephant or anything like that.....I just don't see how it could be of use to me in tis current iteration.....likewise I didn't have an iPod until the 3G.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

i think this is a great device for business travelers in trains, buses, planes, etc.

and for upscale students too

i assume that, with time, price will come down and features will go up like the storage capacity

i'm not an iPod guy, since i'm not a music guy, but if i was a business traveler and wanted to be cool, this would be a great product since you can entertain yourself (audio/video), do business via internet and email and phone all in one device

oh and i just can't wait for this device to hit Canada so Bell can realize they backed the wrong network

I was very surprised by all the media buzz from nightline to CNN about this device

i think younger business types and non-poor students are all over this product

it's exactly what the american urban consumer likes


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

Bell certainly doesn't feel like CDMA was the wrong choice.....neither does Verizon.....or Sprint...and last I checked EVDO has a MUCH larger market penetration and availability than any 3G GSM technology.

The major advantage of GSM is international interoperability and frankly Bell doesn't care what goes on outside their market. They don't care what people wanna do in the EU or Asia, they care about Canadian revenues in Canada


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

DrewNL said:


> Bell certainly doesn't feel like CDMA was the wrong choice.....neither does Verizon.....or Sprint...and last I checked EVDO has a MUCH larger market penetration and availability than any 3G GSM technology.
> 
> The major advantage of GSM is international interoperability and frankly Bell doesn't care what goes on outside their market. They don't care what people wanna do in the EU or Asia, they care about Canadian revenues in Canada


Well.. I don't know about you guys.. but my cell dies after about 2.5 hours talk time.. it's great on standby (which Apple hasn't mentioned for the iPhone). But seriously.. it's not being used.. so, it should be.

This product launch is perfect for someone like me. I have a 4GB iPod Mini.. and I rarely fill it when I use it. I just fill it before I go.. it takes about 5 minutes to put the music on there that I'd like to listen to.

I use the phone in my car a lot.. guess what.. I already have a phone charger in the car right now that will work with the iPhone. And, I have a Auxiliary input on my CD Deck that will allow me to play the tunes (And, possibly even take calls over my system, super sweet!) 

I don't have many pictures.. but, I have some that I like. It will be nice being able to carry my digital wallet on my iPhone.  And, take a few as I go with the built in camera.

It will also be nice to be able to rip some of my movies at home and put them on there for entertainment. I don't know about storage.. but, I can make a movie fall in around the 700MB mark.. 3 movies would be just over 1.5 gigs.. I can't say that I'd even have that many on my phone.. I don't have that much time.. that's what my Apple TV is going to be for when I get home for the evening. 

Google Maps :yikes: .. Nuff said.

I will be buying one.. even if I don't use it as a phone. Someday.. I may want the phone feature.. and well, I'll take it somewhere and get the SIM card put into it.. but, I think without the phone.. it's still a killer device. Perfectly suited for my needs.


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

That all makes perfect sense. Can't argue with any of it. Thanks for the great perspective Vexel. I definitely see where there is a market for this thing, especially - as you said - for 4-8GB nano owners


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## Gabbadude (Nov 17, 2005)

Is there a calendar app with it? A palm is often use to sync with your calendar. Maybe I missed it.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

SINC asked: " Fine, but I know guys who use over that five hours daily. What attraction would it have for them? Especially if they used the other functions between calls? ."

It replaces the Blackbury eMail messaging system with a free service. Phone power users are sometimes Blackberry power users. It has the camera; business users (and journalists) find this handy. It works with mobile cellular and WiFi networks and acts as both a cellphone and a VoIP phone.

I do see much in this phone that would be very useful to a power user. Having said that, as a GSM phone (which means Rogers or Fido in Canada), it will use a smartcard type activation system. So, you could pop the smart card into another phone if necessary; perhaps the one you already have. So, I don't see anyone being stuck with no phone for business use, if for some reason the iPhone should die on them prematurely.

Right now, it's not for me and I wouldn't expect it to be for everyone. Yet.

But, if we can rewind our very short memories, the 1G iPod was, to me, underwhelming as well. 5 Gigabytes was enough to store roughly 9 CDs (I don't use mp3s). And it was $500+. Compare that to today's 80GB 5G device, where I could store all my music (just barely) in Apple Lossless format on one; equivalent to a 24x improvement in storage capacity, and it costs a bit less, perhaps by 20%. I think it's a great device, but I don't own one and am not planning to buy one. Still, my self-imposed financial restraints are not Apple's fault, and the product, such that it is, is perfectly good; I can admire it without owning it.

I only came to own a 3G by accident; I wouldn't have bought one new at that time either. Still, I like it (I've permanently installed it in my truck, as a supplement to FM radio and Sirius).

Here in Canada most of the news has focused on the threat to Blackberry, because that is the Canadian firm who is directly targetted and threatened by it, which, I think, is a first for an Apple product. Previously, it's been Redmond or South Korea or the music industry or the film industry who have borne the brunt Apple's effect on markets.

I think that in one or three years, the people who have some issue with this or that missing or inadequate feature will be finding themselves drawn to it. I certainly expect biger hard drives, better batteries, etc as we normally see with technology.

In particular the VoIP feature, which is automatic (it switches to VoIP from cellular if a network is available) is a killer feature and one that Nokia et al could not introduce into the phone market today or yesterday, even though it's technically well within the ability of most modern cellphones.

They were prevented from enabling or even talking about such a feature, due to serious resistance from their customers, who, you must realize, are not you and me but the phone companies themselves. I can easily imagine a "fly-on-the-wall" perspective of a meeting between, say, representatives from Nokia, and Rogers, where Ted Rogers, swearing like a sailor, makes it perfectly clear that they will never, and I mean never, buy a single product from Nokia again if they introduce such a cancer into the market. The telecom equivalent of "you'll never work in this town again, baby!"

It probably will force them to offer a similar feature, but I also think they hate the idea so much they will face internal resistance (basically, "until our VoIP service is ready to be integrated into our cellphone network and phone package"). Which will probably be too late.

Still, broadly speaking, for SINC and his buddies, it means you will get VoIP phone integration sooner rather than later. Nokia and Erikson and Motorola now have a dim, but visible, green light to introduce a VoIP capable cellphone. In other words, even if they never buy an iPhone and hate the iPhone, the iPhone will save them money when they are able to buy what the phone companies don't want to sell.

And if the phone companies resist, they will pay a very high price. So, I do see it as being revolutionary.


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## TrevX (May 10, 2005)

SINC said:


> Fine, but I know guys who use over that five hours daily. What attraction would it have for them? Especially if they used the other functions between calls?


My lame run-o-the-mill audiovox cell phone doesn't get 5 hours of talk time, and it doesn't have Wifi, bluetooth, and all the other buzzword compliant features that the iPhone has. I think people will be quite happy with 5 hours of talk time.

Trev


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

8 Gigs of space will give you approximately 26 feature-length movies, or about 1,200-1,500 songs.

WHAT THE F*CK DO YOU WANT?!?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Gabbadude said:


> Is there a calendar app with it? A palm is often use to sync with your calendar. Maybe I missed it.


Yes. It syncs with iCal.


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## KardnalForgotHisPassword (Oct 14, 2004)

gordguide said:


> In particular the VoIP feature, which is automatic (it switches to VoIP from cellular if a network is available) is a killer feature and one that Nokia et al could not introduce into the phone market today or yesterday, even though it's technically well within the ability of most modern cell phones.


I think you're reading too much into the wi-fi ability, gordguide. 

From what I got from the Keynote (and the media coverage afterwards) was that the wifi was just for web browsing, not VOIP. Now, that's not to say it won't change if someone finds a way to hack it to run Skype. (Or apple designs it so you can add OS X programs from your computer, something else that wasn't mentioned in the keynote).

I agree with your sentiment though, if the phone could you Skype or VOIP when a wifi network was available, that would be awesome.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm pleased that iPhone comes with a free Yahoo account. Oh, wait.



MannyP Design said:


> 8 Gigs of space will give you approximately 26 feature-length movies, or about 1,200-1,500 songs.
> 
> WHAT THE F*CK DO YOU WANT?!?


Tell us how you _really _feel...


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

HowEver said:


> I'm pleased that iPhone comes with a free Yahoo account. Oh, wait.
> 
> Tell us how you _really _feel...


I couldn't say without breaking the forums rules. It's a family board n' all.

But I wonder just how much space some folks believe they need. My iPod loaded with music, videos, and photos along with some files for backup... and it still has plenty of free space.

The iPhone has a lot going for it when you compare it to similar products.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

DrewNL said:


> Bell certainly doesn't feel like CDMA was the wrong choice.....neither does Verizon.....or Sprint...and last I checked EVDO has a MUCH larger market penetration and availability than any 3G GSM technology.
> 
> The major advantage of GSM is international interoperability and frankly Bell doesn't care what goes on outside their market. They don't care what people wanna do in the EU or Asia, they care about Canadian revenues in Canada


It must be great to NOT have all the phone models available for your network or you have to wait a year for a popular phone (like a Razr) to finally be produced with a CDMA chipset. It must be great that you are missing out on a market of people that buy their phone overseas and slide in their Rogers SIM Card for the service. Yeah...I'm sure Bell, Telus, Verizon is content with missing out on those key things but this is a seperate subject all together. International coverage, is pretty important too. Especially for Canadian travellers. Bell thought CDMA was going to be GSM and they invested so much money in it that they have to be content now. They can't easily switch to GSM without basically handing the torch to Rogers. I'm not defending Rogers as I hated when they bought Fido but I am totally defending GSM/3G - all the hardware innovation will come from there just because of the sheer market user size worldwide.


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

I think the people who are complaining about the non-removable battery and storage space aren't being realistic. How many people ever buy a second battery for their mobile phone these days? I'd hazard a guess: less than 5%, which is why the batteries cost as much or more than a new phone. The most popular iPod by a large margin is the iPod nano. How much memory does it have? 4 or 8 GB, both of which have non-removable batteries as well and still dominate the market.

So if you were designing a product that was targeted at the majority of the market, why the hell would you sacrifice design and cost to satisfy the small minority? Yeah it would be great if it had a terabyte of storage and was powered by nuclear fusion, but concessions have to be made in order to hit the desired price point and form factor. I know I'm over-exaggerating, but my point is the line has to be drawn somewhere.

The iPhone has far higher storage capacity than every other smart phone out there by several gigabytes, and it's battery life is VERY competitive, especially considering the size of the display, and the size of the unit. It makes no sense to bash the product when nobody else makes a product that meets the high expectations you are placing on the iPhone. The fact is if it had more memory and a removable battery, it would a) cost more and b) be bigger, uglier, less durable and/or have WORSE battery life.

Making a battery removable makes a device bigger because the battery needs to have it's own casing, the internals in the battery compartment need to be protected and the latch and clips that hold the battery in place take up space, as do the contacts for the battery. In a completely enclosed device, the battery is soldered directly to the circuit board.

If you have an 80GB+music and video collection, learn to make choices and learn to use iTunes smart playlists. There's no reason you need to carry 10 feature films and 10 seasons of TV shows along with 10,000 songs in your phone unless you plan to be stranded on a desert island with a solar charger for a while.

I personally think the iPhone is about as perfect as we could ever expect with today's technology. Battery life and storage will improve over time.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

madgunde said:


> I think the people who are complaining about the non-removable battery and storage space aren't being realistic. How many people ever buy a second battery for their mobile phone these days? I'd hazard a guess: less than 5%, which is why the batteries cost as much or more than a new phone. The most popular iPod by a large margin is the iPod nano. How much memory does it have? 4 or 8 GB, both of which have non-removable batteries as well and still dominate the market.
> 
> So if you were designing a product that was targeted at the majority of the market, why the hell would you sacrifice design and cost to satisfy the small minority? Yeah it would be great if it had a terabyte of storage and was powered by nuclear fusion, but concessions have to be made in order to hit the desired price point and form factor. I know I'm over-exaggerating, but my point is the line has to be drawn somewhere.
> 
> ...



Hey! Look at that, I AGREE with you ;-). (ref: ps3 vs 360)


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Don't fret people. There will always be people who want to rain on everyone's parade.

The iPhone is absolutely stunning. Hopefully Canada sees them shortly after the Americans.

Battery life is very decent. The amount of memory is fine.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... I think you're reading too much into the wi-fi ability, gordguide. ..."

Maybe, but I very much doubt it.

Jajah  (Mountain View, CA) claims to be in talks with Apple and they already have an OSX Address Book plugin that makes it very easy to use their ViOP software from the desktop. The iPhone runs OSX, according to Apple, and runs some version of Address Book. In fact, from the looks of things, the iPhone would work with Jajah out of the box; I'm not sure anything needs to be configured at all. All Jajah does is route the calls over the internet; you can use any phone wih it (cellular or landline). It's primarily for saving on long distance and roaming charges.

UPDATE: Jajah has issued a press release regarding the iPhone. Check it out.

I really would be surprised if other VoIP providers fail to take advantage of the iPhone's ability to find WiFi. I did read that the iPhone will switch automatically from cellular networks to WiFi networks and although I think the reference was to web browsing, I don't see how the phone company could know you want to use Skype instead of search Google. What has to be implemented? The microphone works, doesn't it?

I use Qualcomm Satellite Phones at work and although there are only a very few times when I've been near a tower, these phone automatically and seamlessly switch to a cellular network if one is available. I'm going to pick a new one up this week from the office and bring it up north, and I can assure you that here in town the cellular network will have priority; it always defaults to the least expensive network it can find. We've been using them for 5 years; this isn't new by any means.

Whatever the details, everyone's got until June, when the iPhone is supposed to be made available in the US, to announce them. I see no barriers at all, though: developer tools for the iPhone are available now.


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> 8 Gigs of space will give you approximately 26 feature-length movies, or about 1,200-1,500 songs.
> 
> WHAT THE F*CK DO YOU WANT?!?


8GB gives me 6-7 movies......have you ever ripped a dvd? Or downloaded a movie from iTunes? Not only that, but where does the OS reside?


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

MACinist said:


> It must be great to NOT have all the phone models available for your network or you have to wait a year for a popular phone (like a Razr) to finally be produced with a CDMA chipset. It must be great that you are missing out on a market of people that buy their phone overseas and slide in their Rogers SIM Card for the service. Yeah...I'm sure Bell, Telus, Verizon is content with missing out on those key things but this is a seperate subject all together. International coverage, is pretty important too. Especially for Canadian travellers. Bell thought CDMA was going to be GSM and they invested so much money in it that they have to be content now. They can't easily switch to GSM without basically handing the torch to Rogers. I'm not defending Rogers as I hated when they bought Fido but I am totally defending GSM/3G - all the hardware innovation will come from there just because of the sheer market user size worldwide.


Show me the stats for Canadian mobile operators.......show me that Rogers Wireless/Fido is a more viable/successful business in Canada that Bell Mobility, Telus Mobility, Aliant Mobility and Virgin Mobile. 

I'm willing to bet that they don't give a sh*t about what hardware they sell as long as the revenues increase every year...sure the trendy hardware will get you some customers but all the CDMA providers have proved that even if they have to wait a year for something like a RAZR the customers will come arunnin' when its released. Ask a rep from one of these providers if the RAZR was a failure in their market because Rogers had it out a year earlier......while you're at it, check and see how many GSM V3 models were recalled. 

Oh and finally, you need to disassociate the term GSM with the term 3G. They are not interchangable. We all know where the most widespread and reliable 3G solution is coming from right now.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Rogers is the largest digital wireless provider in Canada. In fact, it will be 100% digital by May 2007 since it is terminating its analog customer base (by giving them free upgrades to digital cell phones). (And again, no, I don't work for Rogers.)



DrewNL said:


> Show me the stats for Canadian mobile operators.......show me that Rogers Wireless/Fido is a more viable/successful business in Canada that Bell Mobility, Telus Mobility, Aliant Mobility and Virgin Mobile.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that they don't give a sh*t about what hardware they sell as long as the revenues increase every year...sure the trendy hardware will get you some customers but all the CDMA providers have proved that even if they have to wait a year for something like a RAZR the customers will come arunnin' when its released. Ask a rep from one of these providers if the RAZR was a failure in their market because Rogers had it out a year earlier......while you're at it, check and see how many GSM V3 models were recalled.
> 
> Oh and finally, you need to disassociate the term GSM with the term 3G. They are not interchangable. We all know where the most widespread and reliable 3G solution is coming from right now.


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## vapour (Feb 18, 2003)

The launch of the iphone reminds me a lot of the launch of the ipod. There was lots of complaining about lack of features and cost, but just as with the first gen ipod this version of the iphone gets the ball rolling and then the costs come down and new features will be added. I think the iphone really represents the next wave for portable computers which is why apple has simplified their name to just Apple. Basically the interface is the computer and it just went mobile.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... Rogers is the largest digital wireless provider in Canada. In fact, it will be 100% digital by May 2007 since it is terminating its analog customer base (by giving them free upgrades to digital cell phones). ..."

That does not mean Rogers will have an all-digital network. Since analog cellular has a much larger range than digital, all digital phones are both analog and digital and they all switch to analog when outside the digital range. To kill it's analog towers would have the effect of killing 80% of it's non-urban coverage area; I don't think that's either likely or desireable for anyone.

I believe the GSM phone was introduced simply because Cingular is the partner and they are the largest GSM network outside Europe. Along with the smaller players T-Mobile and Rogers, GSM has 37.8% of the North American market.

This will allow Apple to work out supply issues and perhaps teething problems before a larger launch. Keep in mind that although Apple is pretty good at building user friendly devices, they don't ask for feedback from customers or use focus groups when designing a product. There is bound to be issues that need addressing.

CDMA-2000 (either EV-DO or EV-DV) has 50.4% of North America, and is the dominant technology in Central and South America, the Carribbean, Eastern Europe, Australia, New Zeland, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, China, Taiwan, Thailand, VietNam, etc.

Also, Cingular is now rolling out it's "true 3G" network of W-CDMA phones (300,000 subscribers as of Q3 2006).


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

If you insist...

http://micro.newswire.ca/release.cgi?rkey=1501104374&view=5804-0&Start=0




> Rogers Wireless Communications Inc.
> 
> Attention Business/Technology Editors:
> Rogers Wireless to Upgrade Remaining TDMA and Analog Wireless Customers
> ...





gordguide said:


> " ... Rogers is the largest digital wireless provider in Canada. In fact, it will be 100% digital by May 2007 since it is terminating its analog customer base (by giving them free upgrades to digital cell phones). ..."
> 
> That does not mean Rogers will have an all-digital network. Since analog cellular has a much larger range than digital, all digital phones are both analog and digital and they all switch to analog when outside the digital range. To kill it's analog towers would have the effect of killing 80% of it's non-urban coverage area; I don't think that's either likely or desireable for anyone.


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

gordguide said:


> "Since analog cellular has a much larger range than digital, all digital phones are both analog and digital and they all switch to analog when outside the digital range.


This is false. I'm not quite sure about Rogers but I know that a lot of the CDMA phones coming out now do not support an analog network at all. Digital wireless circuitry is very mainstream now as it has been around for a decade and most providers are waving goodbye to analog. As a matter of fact, I'd guess that finding analog systems would be much harder and much more expensive now, especially with the power required to run them. I don't agree with your assessment of the range either. Analog is better received in areas where the provider has not invested deeply in Digital tech.....period.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... When Digital PCS subscribers travel outside of the Digital PCS coverage area, their calls are automatically switched to Rogers Wireless' extensive analog network. Currently, Rogers Wireless' analog coverage reaches well over 93% of the Canadian population and our digital coverage reaches approximately 83% of the Canadian population. ..."

-Rogers Wireless: About Rogers

SouthEast Ontario coverage map: Rogers

Rogers has completed adding digital transponders on all the existing analog towers in South East Ontario: why is the "analog" and "analog fringe" further than the digital coverage areas?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

That's out of date.

And Rogers no longer calls such subscribers "Digital PCS" customers.

Those analog towers are now digital, or will be by May 2007.



gordguide said:


> " ... When Digital PCS subscribers travel outside of the Digital PCS coverage area, their calls are automatically switched to Rogers Wireless' extensive analog network. Currently, Rogers Wireless' analog coverage reaches well over 93% of the Canadian population and our digital coverage reaches approximately 83% of the Canadian population. ..."
> 
> -Rogers Wireless: About Rogers


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## madgunde (Mar 10, 2006)

Sorry Gordguide, GSM is digital only. Rogers has been GSM for years now. They probably still support people with older non-GSM phones, but all new cell activations are GSM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gsm

If you remember, Fido was the first GSM provider in Canada, and they had a big issue with coverage because their phones couldn't use the then widespread analog service.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

DrewNL said:


> 8GB gives me 6-7 movies......have you ever ripped a dvd? Or downloaded a movie from iTunes? Not only that, but where does the OS reside?


You can't play ripped DVD movies on an iPod/iPhone unless they are compressed for iPod--end of story. They (feature-length movies) typically run around 300-400 megs each. tptptptp


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

gordguide said:


> .........GSM has 37.8% of the North American market.
> 
> CDMA-2000 (either EV-DO or EV-DV) has 50.4% of North America, and is the dominant technology in Central and South America, the Carribbean, Eastern Europe, Australia, New Zeland, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, China, Taiwan, Thailand, VietNam, etc.


http://www.3gamericas.org/English/News_room/DisplayPressRelease.cfm?id=2805&s=ENG

"3G Americas reports today that GSM technology has taken more than fifty percent of the market share in the Americas region, adding nearly 100 million new customers from June 2005 to June 2006. At the end of 2Q 2006, two billion of the world's 2.41 billion cellular subscribers used GSM/UMTS. Informa's World Cellular Information Service projects three billion GSM/UMTS customers by 2009, with 551 million of these subscribers using UMTS services. Clearly, GSM/UMTS has established global dominance." 

"The traction of GSM is indisputable as market share continues to grow. At 2Q 2005, GSM held 38% of the Americas market, having just taken its place as the #1 wireless mobile technology in the region. Twelve months later, that market share has grown to 51%, and in several key countries the market shares are even more impressive.

Some operators are transitioning their CDMA networks to GSM to take advantage of GSM's global roaming capabilities, technical evolution strategy, and economies of scale. These are the significant factors contributing to the massive uptake of GSM across Latin America and the Caribbean where it now represents 63% of the overall wireless mobile market, versus 22% for CDMA technologies."

You can read the rest...


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

DrewNL said:


> 8GB gives me 6-7 movies......have you ever ripped a dvd? Or downloaded a movie from iTunes? Not only that, but where does the OS reside?


(tsk, tsk) Someone didn't watch the keynote or at least wasn't paying attention. During the demo Stevie showed too many titles of movies, tv shows, songs and photos that one could not count them all as he whizzed by them so quickly while scrolling.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

DrewNL said:


> Show me the stats for Canadian mobile operators.......show me that Rogers Wireless/Fido is a more viable/successful business in Canada that Bell Mobility, Telus Mobility, Aliant Mobility and Virgin Mobile.


Didn't give you any statistical or factual data nor did I claim that Rogers is more successful even though "Rogers Wireless is the largest Canadian wireless communications service provider." 



DrewNL said:


> I'm willing to bet that they don't give a sh*t about what hardware they sell as long as the revenues increase every year...


You are asking for stats and now you are a betting man? Show me some stats! Canadian wireless marketplace is so competitive that I seriously doubt Telus, Bell or Rogers executives have your stance on missed revenue and market opportunities. 



DrewNL said:


> ...sure the trendy hardware will get you some customers but all the CDMA providers have proved that even if they have to wait a year for something like a RAZR the customers will come arunnin' when its released.Ask a rep from one of these providers if the RAZR was a failure in their market because Rogers had it out a year earlier......while you're at it, check and see how many GSM V3 models were recalled.


I can't even understand what you trying to say here. Rogers or GSM really has nothing to do with a recalled Motorola Razr (if there even was such a thing as my Rogers RAZR when it was first released was fine and I didn't hear of any recall). CDMA providers have only proved that when a RAZR comes out a year later, their current customers come running for hardware upgrades. Market-share growth is about maintaining current customers and signing NEW subscribers. 

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...cial+results&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=safari



DrewNL said:


> Oh and finally, you need to disassociate the term GSM with the term 3G. They are not interchangable. We all know where the most widespread and reliable 3G solution is coming from right now.


W-CDMA but that has nothing to do with the message of my thread. I'm NOT saying GSM is better but rather it is a smarter choice for carriers or manufacturers to use because it is a world standard with higher market/revenue potential. Hence, Apples' decision to use such a standard, puts them in the best position to make their product successful.

W-CDMA is protocol used in the UMTS system. In February 2006 Rogers announced that testing for their 3G/3.5G UMTS/HSDPA network would be complete by March 2006. The network was brought online for select markets on November 2, 2006, with further expansion during 2007.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Bjornbro said:


> (tsk, tsk) Someone didn't watch the keynote or at least wasn't paying attention. During the demo Stevie showed too many titles of movies, tv shows, songs and photos that one could not count them all as he whizzed by them so quickly while scrolling.





MannyP Design said:


> You can't play ripped DVD movies on an iPod/iPhone unless they are compressed for iPod--end of story. They (feature-length movies) typically run around 300-400 megs each.


Thank you!


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

MACinist said:


> I can't even understand what you trying to say here. Rogers or GSM really has nothing to do with a recalled Motorola Razr (if there even was such a thing as my Rogers RAZR when it was first released was fine and I didn't hear of any recall).


Rogers, T-Mob, Cingular and Orange had a massive recall - up in the millions - of handsets. Anyways, I know that has nothing to do with GSM as a technology, its more of a manufacturing issue with the chosen GSM chipset whem moto started production.....the reason I mentioned this was to denote that first to market does not always translate to best on market. Subsequent GSM models such as the V3i and V3x have been impeccable.

......I forget why I even brought this up in the beginning...I work too many night shiftsXX)


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

MACinist said:


> Thank you!


Could have sworn that the movies I got from iTunes were bigger than 400 MB, but I could be wrong. It HAS happened before .....I do completely understand the required compression though. I should pay closer attention. All I know is that I cannot fit the audio and video that I want on my 30GB iPod.

..and as for the keynote, I've not watched it....well I turned it on but was too distracted by Steve using a device to make calls when it has not been approved for use by the FCC, then I went right into wondering where the OS is stored on the device


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## imachungry (Sep 19, 2004)

madgunde said:


> I think the people who are complaining about the non-removable battery and storage space aren't being realistic. How many people ever buy a second battery for their mobile phone these days? I'd hazard a guess: less than 5%, which is why the batteries cost as much or more than a new phone. The most popular iPod by a large margin is the iPod nano. How much memory does it have? 4 or 8 GB, both of which have non-removable batteries as well and still dominate the market.
> 
> So if you were designing a product that was targeted at the majority of the market, why the hell would you sacrifice design and cost to satisfy the small minority? Yeah it would be great if it had a terabyte of storage and was powered by nuclear fusion, but concessions have to be made in order to hit the desired price point and form factor. I know I'm over-exaggerating, but my point is the line has to be drawn somewhere.
> 
> ...


Totally agree.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

DrewNL said:


> Could have sworn that the movies I got from iTunes were bigger than 400 MB, but I could be wrong. It HAS happened before .....I do completely understand the required compression though. I should pay closer attention. All I know is that I cannot fit the audio and video that I want on my 30GB iPod.
> 
> ..and as for the keynote, I've not watched it....well I turned it on but was too distracted by Steve using a device to make calls when it has not been approved for use by the FCC, then I went right into wondering where the OS is stored on the device


iTunes movies are 640 x 480 which is near-broadcast quality; but in order to play them on your iPod/Phone you need to reformat them down the appropriate 320x240 size.


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

iPods now accept 640x480, Manny.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

mikeinmontreal said:


> iPods now accept 640x480, Manny.


What's the point watching a video on a tiny screen when it can only display at 320x240?


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

MannyP Design said:


> What's the point watching a video on a tiny screen when it can only display at 320x240?


It means you don't have to re-encode just for the iPod or smaller device. My Palm TX plays MP4 at full res as well as the smaller 320 by 240. I don't bother re-encoding for the small screen.


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## KardnalForgotHisPassword (Oct 14, 2004)

gordguide said:


> " ... I think you're reading too much into the wi-fi ability, gordguide. ..."
> 
> Maybe, but I very much doubt it.
> 
> Jajah  (Mountain View, CA) claims to be in talks with Apple and they already have an OSX Address Book plugin that makes it very easy to use their ViOP software from the desktop. The iPhone runs OSX, according to Apple, and runs some version of Address Book. In fact, from the looks of things, the iPhone would work with Jajah out of the box; I'm not sure anything needs to be configured at all. All Jajah does is route the calls over the internet; you can use any phone wih it (cellular or landline). It's primarily for saving on long distance and roaming charges.


This is exactly why I don't think we'll see VOIP on it. No third party phone apps.

Apple VPs confirm no 3rd party iPhone apps


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

That's either classic "disinformation" or really unfortunate.

I choose between thousands of applications for my Nokia smartphone. Which would indeed make it smarter in some ways, despite Jobs' invocation otherwise.

But I'm betting the iPhone OS gets cracked and apps flow like candy...




KardnalForgotHisPassword said:


> This is exactly why I don't think we'll see VOIP on it. No third party phone apps.
> 
> Apple VPs confirm no 3rd party iPhone apps


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Macified said:


> It means you don't have to re-encode just for the iPod or smaller device. My Palm TX plays MP4 at full res as well as the smaller 320 by 240. I don't bother re-encoding for the small screen.


It's an incredible waste of space. This doesn't negate the fact that the iPhone still has tons of room. Whether or not you want to load your portable device with video that far exceeds the device's display capability and waste storage is up to you, I guess.

I'd wager that it also wastes energy as the device has to read twice as much info in order to play as well... but I could be wrong.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

On a device like this you aren't going to be carrying hours and hours of video. You'll have a couple of shows which you swap back and forth. Yes it takes up more space and yes it probably consumes more power but in the long run it takes less total space than storing two version of the same show/movie and consumes less power than encoding a show/movie twice. Also takes less time.

This is a secondary viewing screen which gives the carrier access to something to watch while on the bus, sitting in a waiting room, maybe on a plane, etc. I don't think anyone out there is loading up a handheld device with a whack of movies saying "I just can't wait to see these on my iPod". If the user is planning on viewing the video on a large screen with the iPod as the source (ie. taking a movie to a friends, etc.) then the larger format will probably give better results (can't confirm this though).

I really think that video on an iPod is a market that Steve Jobs is in very reluctantly. I seriously doubt the he thinks people "need" this technology and I doubt he has ever sat and watched a full feature length movie on an iPod. iPods are for music with video as an incidental and wow factor feature.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Macified said:


> On a device like this you aren't going to be carrying hours and hours of video. You'll have a couple of shows which you swap back and forth. Yes it takes up more space and yes it probably consumes more power but in the long run it takes less total space than storing two version of the same show/movie and consumes less power than encoding a show/movie twice. Also takes less time.


Oh really? It depends on the user. And you can, if you're smart about it. 

I have tons of video podcasts, movies, shows, music videos, and the like. I don't keep copies of the small version on my Mac, and I don't bother with large versions because a) iTunes movies aren't really available in Canada as of yet; b) I rip my DVDs specifically for my iPod; and c) large format videos are better played on large screens.

By the way, encoding Quicktime movies for iPod format doesn't take that long... it's when you rip a DVD to your iPod that takes a long time... even more so if you keep it at it's default size (720x480.) I fail to see any reason to keep video at large formats if it's only for a portable device.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

I see some vague hints that Apple is downplaying any comments about VoIP and the iPhone. Perhaps the connection with Cingular hamstrings Apple in some way with that. That might also explain why Apple felt it could not accomodate Cisco, which is betting heavily on VoIP for it's future revenue growth, at least in the consumer space (ie via Linksys).

Jajah and the like will work though (you just need web access to initiate the call; it routes the long distance over the internet but uses the local network, from cell or landline to another cell or landline phone. Once the link is established over the 'net, Jajah rings both phones and you pick up and start talking, paying for a local call to your phone company and free or very little to Jajah).

Phone companies have to do the same, or it's "curtains for them", as Edward G Robinson would say. Already in Africa and Italy the telecos route all long distance over the internet. The future of telephony is cellular to internet to cellular. I think Cisco knows that and wants to get people to buy routers, encouraging them to abandon the teleco altogether.

The truth is the phone company can nip this in the bud if they have the courage to do so. We all love our landlines and cellphones. I could make calls from my Mac 10 years ago, and I didn't use it much. I wouldn't want to pay a monthly fee to do it.

Now, a Mac makes an awesome answering machine, and I used that all the time. But, I preferred making calls with the telephone. The only time I used the Mac was when I knew I was going to be on hold. I would fire up the old Performa, make a call, and then run it through the home stereo speakers at a tolerable volume and tackle some worthy project, like the dishes. Bad muzak naturally should be associated with housework, not shopping or elvevator rides.

When the human finally picked up and started babbling "hello" I would walk to the phone and start talking. The Performa came with the original Apple Remote; I'd mute the hifi speakers and chat away on a "real" phone. Worked awesome, actually.

[Waaaay off-topic]: I'm convinced that everyone who calls the Performa 5215 a "road apple" never used it properly. It was, and still is, the most versatile Mac I've ever owned.

I still think the iPhone will be revolutionary. I don't think you will have to use one, or even like one, for that revolution to roll along. I don't even feel that Apple will necessarily be the beneficiary of the iPhone's success, whatever that may be. It won't be the first time Apple kicked some ass and got lost in the rush once everyone went "Ahah!" and woke up one morning, all clued in as if by magic.

I use my cellphone, and I won't tell you I would want to go back to the days before they existed; I don't. But, I like the old landlines best. Why, with that newfangled handset, they introduced hands free operation in 1930. And there is a a rather humourous take on the whole thing at the BBC website. Check it out.


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## Heart (Jan 16, 2001)

-








Mockups
Small size less battery consumption.
-
via Gizmodo and they have it via Digital Drops.




.


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

I think the iPhone is a slick device that is going to impact the computer and phone industry for sure but like many have said, I'd rather just use it as an iPod and wifi device. My phone is a communication device that I rely on for more than entertainment and social contact but for emergency use as well. I need something that has long battery life and if I have spent the battery entertaining myself, that could be a matter of life and death if I get into an accident somewhere.

However, it is very cool and for many people this will be a hot seller. I have not doubt it will be a success but I hope Apple brings out an iPod only version (I'm sure they will).

To me, this device is really a small OSX computer that also happens to have a phone in it.


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