# General Hillier: Tim Horton's = Good Morale



## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

_Hillier also said it would be a big morale booster to have a Tim Hortons franchise in Kandahar.

"We need a Tim Hortons franchise where those 2,000 plus soldiers and sailors and airmen and air women live in Kandahar," he said.

Hillier invited the CEO of Tim Hortons to accompany him to Kandahar and set up a coffee shop. The company issued a statement making no promises but saying it would look at ways of fulfilling the general's request._

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/02/24/hillier060224.html?ref=rss

I just wanted to post this 'cause it's funny, quaint, and true all at the same time.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Tim Hortons? Our soldiers deserve better than that swill (or it just shows the lack of class they have).
What next, MacDonald's for them? Maybe we could get it setup and have a system similar to what the American's often do...


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Try to put up a Starbucks in a Canadian military base, and they'll use it as a target for grenade practice. 

So I suppose Canadian soldiers "show the lack of class they have" then. In your view, anyway, not mine.

Sounds like "RIGHT BY ASSOCIATION" from Conversational Terrorism (see http://www.ehmac.ca/showthread.php?t=37630)

_"I have observed that those who disagree with me on the next point tend to be unsophisticated, and those who quickly recognize the validity of the point to be more educated."_

Sounds very similar too: "I have observed that soldiers who disagree with me about coffee tend to be lacking in class, and those who quickly recognize the validity of my coffee choices tend to be more classy."

So much for *that* opinion....


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

I feel you just don't like to be disagreed with... 


Ooooppss... did I say "feel"... I meant "think"...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> Try to put up a Starbucks in a Canadian military base, and they'll use it as a target for grenade practice.


How about, the comment about wanting a Timmies in Kandahar by Hillier was something rather stupid for a General to say? Does that make it better for you?
I would hope that Mr. Hillier would be able to say something more intelligent than that. It makes it sound as if our little boy soldiers are spoiled brats. The next thing you know, he'll be asking for McDonalds or more x-boxes for the boys

Here is a man who just said that the army needs about three quarters of a billion dollars just to sustain the present Canadian Forces asking for a Tim Hortons for troop morale. There is something wrong with the administration of our army if in fact a Tim Hortons franchise would make such a difference in morale. Hell, if that's all it takes to make the little boy soldiers happy, scrap the money and just set up a Tim Hortons franchise - it would be a lot less expensive. 

As for Tim Hortons, the coffee is great if your idea of coffee is something akin to brown crayola in hot water with a dash of cigarette ashes, milk and sugar.
I found this quote rather apt at describing Timmies:


> For those of you who have no idea who Tim Hortons is, it’s a Canadian coffee and snack chain that has somehow managed to insinuate itself into the collective national consciousness as something “truly Canadian”, like hockey, snow, beavers, mounties, and horrifyingly bad pop idols.
> 
> Manufactured patriotism, especially that with purely commercial intent, is an act worthy of repeated slaps about the face and head region with a large sack of coffee beans.


http://www.beatnikpad.com/archives/2004/03/05/rantings_of_a_coffee_fanatic


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> There is something wrong with the administration of our army if in fact a Tim Hortons franchise would make such a difference in morale.


You have no idea how much morale means, but how cheaply it can be procured.

You would be surprised what a little thing like a familiar drink can do for a homesick soldier. Given the culture, there are even fewer creature comforts in Kandahar than most places. No alcohol. No clubs. General Hillier may be "grandstanding" for his troops here, but I've spoken with returning soldiers, and high of the list of things they've missed is stuff like their favourite coffee.

Imagine getting up every morning in an unfamiliar land, doing a job that can be tedious, or stressful, or dangerous. And you aren't waking up to the faces of your wife and kids, either. You wake up, and you are _*already at work*_. If you could make that morning just a bit easier, how could you do it?

General Hillier has a good guess.

The preference for Tim Horton's by Canada's soldiers is an easily explicable phenomenon. Do you see steelworkers, miners, or truckdrivers crawling into Starbucks or Second Cup? No? But you do see them in Timmies. Why?

Tim Horton's is the coffee of the Canadian working man. It's that way because Tim Horton's are established on the highways and in the industrial districts. They don't sneer at you if you show up in your soiled workpants. They don't keep the washroom under lock'n'key to keep the dirty peasants out.

Oh, and they fix your coffee for you, too. The working man is in a rush, and they know it. I can't believe how expensive Starbucks is, but they still can't manage to spare the time to put cream and sugar in the cup. Instead, I'm steered over to a grimy counter, with spilt coffee and sugar everywhere. When I'm on my way to work, I shouldn't have to stop to fix my own coffee.

Go to Tim Horton's, and you can buy some donuts for work, to share with colleagues. Or a bagel'n'cheese. Or some chili. At those "fancy" coffee places you can buy _*a*_ muffin provided you don't need lunch money for the rest of the day.

As for the taste? It is a personal thing. I do prefer Tim's.



> Manufactured patriotism, especially that with purely commercial intent, is an act worthy of repeated slaps about the face and head region with a large sack of coffee beans.


Those "little boy soldiers" are the reason we have a country to be patriotic about.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

What I find offensive about the whole thing is that this was leaked to the press a couple of weeks ago, and Tim Horton's management was ambushed. 

There are any number of reasons why a company would be crazy to send staff to a war zone or set up operations there. By publicly leaking (whoever it was) and then announcing that it would be a good thing, the Armed Forces has put Tim Horton's in an impossible situation. They either have to agree and go into a (probably) money losing propostition, or they get pummelled in public opinion by saying that they are not interested in taking the risk.

It's like me announcing on TV that You have generously donated $500 to support orphaned children. If you say, "no I didn't agree, nobody asked me, and I won't fork out $500 for what I never agreed to", people will think you are a jerk and you hate children. The other option is to give up the $500. It's a form of blackmail by public relations.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

What I find amusing is that several of my friends and relatives who are in the military that were/are stationed in places like Bosnia, Afghanistan, and the like all would have LOVED to have a Tim Hortons on base. Why?

Because to them it's like a little piece of home... a familiar place that isn't the mess hall where they can detach themselves from their surroundings, briefly, and relax.

The fact of the matter is Tim Hortons is extremely successful. Every morning there are lineups out the door of people waiting to get their morning coffee. You can go to any TH at any time of the day and you will find people having a conversation.

I mean, what the F*** is wrong with giving our soldiers a little piece of "Canada" if it'll make their day a little less mundane?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Our "little boy soldiers" are paid to do a job. 
In times of peace, army life can be quite mundane. When you are in a war zone, it should not be a country club just like home. You have a rec room, mess hall to relax. You set up satellite TV, phone, internet to keep in touch with the family. If you want to see your kids or your wife's face every morning, don't join the army or you should at least be aware of the facts of the job. "Creature comforts" are not part of the job in a war zone.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Who said anything about a country club? Now you're just talking out of your ass.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> Our "little boy soldiers" are paid to do a job.
> In times of peace, army life can be quite mundane. When you are in a war zone, it should not be a country club just like home. You have a rec room, mess hall to relax. You set up satellite TV, phone, internet to keep in touch with the family. If you want to see your kids or your wife's face every morning, don't join the army or you should at least be aware of the facts of the job. "Creature comforts" are not part of the job in a war zone.


Thank god you're not the Chief of Defence. You don't even understand how crucial high morale is to operational success.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

CanadaRAM said:


> What I find offensive about the whole thing is that this was leaked to the press a couple of weeks ago, and Tim Horton's management was ambushed.


Do you have a link to this story?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> Thank god you're not the Chief of Defence. You don't even understand how crucial high morale is to operational success.


If high morale is a Tim Hortons franchise near or in the army base in Afghanistan than our troops priorities are seriously skewed. 
Our top general pushing for a Timmies shows the Army in a petty light. I'd be more worried about not getting our boys back in body bags than courting the CEO of Tim Hortons.


> The country's top soldier is prepared to personally escort the boss of Tim Hortons to visit Canadian troops in Afghanistan if it will help get a Tims running over there.
> American troops in Afghanistan have access to fast food from Pizza Hut and Burger King, but the Canadians can't get fresh Timbits.
> "I invite the CEO of Tim Hortons to come with me to Afghanistan and see the powerful implications that would come from that."


http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/National/2006/02/25/1461967.html
Why is he even wasting tax dollars for something like that - grandstanding at it's worse. It a supposed to be a war zone. 



> The Canadians are spread out in multiple locations, with the front-line combat guys grousing that they are tucked way off on the periphery, more than a kilometre from the ball hockey court, the Internet stations and the 24-hour gymnasium.
> It is also quite the hike to Canada House — the two-storey soldiers' lounge shaped like a giant Yule log — which last night hosted what surely is a first, Curling Night in Kandahar, thanks to a satellite link to Canada's Olympic coverage.
> When it is not buzzing with a major sports event, Canada House offers a DVD library and heaps of magazines and paperbacks free to the soldiers, or just a place to hang out and play foosball.
> Canada House hosts one of three tiny Canadian army stores offering tax-free cigarettes and assorted sundries. These venues have the market cornered on certain Canadian habits, yet all pale against the American PX, a Wal-Mart-sized warehouse offering everything from bowie knives to wide-screen televisions to thermal underwear, plus DVDs, video games and mountains of pop and snacks.
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...ageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

Country club indeed - but contrast that with:


> Military can't afford basic bullets and beans, despite government promises
> OTTAWA (CP) - The Canadian Forces are still short of money for basics - bullets, beans and buildings - despite rosy political promises, says the country's top soldier.


http://www.canada.com/topics/news/n...=4c7fabc1-c91a-4b48-ac8c-04ecba50ff04&k=91793


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## VVA88IT (Aug 21, 2005)

Probably much easier for the Military to have and operate its own "on the go, portable TH Franchise" ... just need the equipments and a baker.

Cheers


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

VVA88IT said:


> Probably much easier for the Military to have and operate its own "on the go, portable TH Franchise" ... just need the equipments and a baker.


Now that's creative thinking! With all the profits it would make from running it's own TH franchise the army could buy decent equipment!


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> If high morale is a Tim Hortons franchise near or in the army base in Afghanistan than our troops priorities are seriously skewed.


There you go again: wanting Timmies in Kandahar is "seriously skewed priorites," because you don't like Timmies. :yawn: 


ArtistSeries said:


> Our top general pushing for a Timmies shows the Army in a petty light. I'd be more worried about not getting our boys back in body bags than courting the CEO of Tim Hortons.


It's not an either/or situation. A general can do both.

"...Canada House offers a DVD library and heaps of magazines and paperbacks free to the soldiers, or just a place to hang out and play foosball. Canada House hosts one of three tiny Canadian army stores..."

That sounds like a "country club" to you?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> There you go again: wanting Timmies in Kandahar is "seriously skewed priorites," because you don't like Timmies. :yawn:


Ohh please - it could be Timmies, Wendy's, Harvey's, McDonalds or any other perceived icon of the "Canadian working man". 
Our top general pressuring for a TH franchise is bad form on every level. 

Soldiers complaining that they are on "the periphery more than a more than a kilometre from the ball hockey court, the Internet stations and the 24-hour gymnasium" does sound like spoiled little soldier boys....
"three tiny Canadian army stores offering tax-free cigarettes and assorted sundries" - for what? 2000 soldiers at the moment boo hoo...
"Pull back the double-lined dust flat on just about any tent in camp and you are likely to see a soldier wearing a headset, lost momentarily on his laptop, playing DVDs or games. The new army is wired." - sounds so painful to be there. Again boo hoo - it's your job.

Yes it sounds like a country club. Sounds like the boys want it just like home, ignoring the fact that they are in a quasi-war zone.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

The only thing skewed is your perception of reality.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> Soldiers complaining that they are on "the periphery more than a more than a kilometre from the ball hockey court, the Internet stations and the 24-hour gymnasium" does sound like spoiled little soldier boys....


Try walking a kilometer, with all the heavy gear you need to be effective and stay alive. Then do it several times that day. Then remember Kandahar doesn't have the climate or friendly locals of Montreal. Then remember how much real spoiled brats like ArtistSeries appreciate your efforts and dedication, so much so that waking up to your favourite coffee is considered pampered.

Why do I waste my breath on you, ArtistSeries?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

The complexities of morale are extensively examined by most large employers. Companies have found that morale can be raised through seemingly simple and superficial things that still make a difference. Any good corporation will take these things seriously. Morale connects to productivity and reduces turnover. 

Now, looking at the military, where morale and productivity translate into physcial safety for the soldiers and civilians, not just dollars like corporations, I'd be very disappointed and concerned to think the upper-echelons weren't considering every feasible and potentially effective morale booster, regardless of who may sneer about it. If Timmy's helps, then great. What's the problem?


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> Because to them it's like a little piece of home... a familiar place that isn't the mess hall where they can detach themselves from their surroundings, briefly, and relax.
> 
> The fact of the matter is Tim Hortons is extremely successful. Every morning there are lineups out the door of people waiting to get their morning coffee. You can go to any TH at any time of the day and you will find people having a conversation.
> 
> I mean, what the F*** is wrong with giving our soldiers a little piece of "Canada" if it'll make their day a little less mundane?


:clap:


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

lpkmckenna said:


> Do you have a link to this story?


I'll look for it, I read it in the cellulose-fibre based news.

Here's one link from Jan 28. An armed forces spokesperson outed the story before any negotiations were concluded (or perhaps, even started) and Tim Hortons was blindsided.

Reaction here, blogger bycotting an "unpatriotic" Tim Hortons (2 days after the leak) because "Tim Hortons is _balking at the opportunity _to open a location to serve the Canadian heroes that are serving in Afghanistan".

There's no doubt the soldiers would enjoy it and it would be a benefit. 

But you don't go denying a company the freedom of choice how and where to do business any more than you draft citizens into the army against their choice.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Thanks, CR.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why people line up every morning, noon and evening at a TH.

The only redeeming quality their coffee has, is that it is hot.

Must be that people today can't get out of bed early enough to brew a real pot while in the shower and pour one for the road at a fraction of the cost.

That being said, if a small TH over there with our troops would boost moral, the forces should offer the space in a corner of the mess and be done with it. I doubt they would need the drive through for tanks option though.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

SINC said:


> I doubt they would need the drive through for tanks option though.


Oh, you don't mean that!


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

If the coffee is all they miss why not just buy them a Timmy's brewing machine and a healthy supply of ground up coffee and stick it in there mess hall, and by the way my dad laughed his ass off when he heard about this he wished he had any brand of coffee when he and his platoon were stuck in the middle of the Angolan jungle in the late 60's.

Laterz


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

lpkmckenna said:


> Try walking a kilometer, with all the heavy gear you need to be effective and stay alive. Then do it several times that day. Then remember Kandahar doesn't have the climate or friendly locals of Montreal. Then remember how much real spoiled brats like ArtistSeries appreciate your efforts and dedication, so much so that waking up to your favourite coffee is considered pampered.
> 
> Why do I waste my breath on you, ArtistSeries?


Taking it rather personally there lpkmckenna? 

It's a soldier's job to be in Kandahar. When you join, you know that there are risks involved - one of them maybe serving overseas under less than ideal circumstances. Mollycoddling our soldiers because it's too hard, too hot, too cold, coffee is not right. You left out the other perks that our soldiers have (like the 24 hour, Gym, internet access, duty free, Canada house. 
Our top General even trying to pressure TH via the media to set up shop there is asinine. 

As self-appointed philosopher king you should know that there is a difference between thinking that the TH request is ludicrous and being a spoiled brat. 

To be fair, I really did try understand why you thought this story was quaint and I did ask a few friends if TH coffee would make such a difference to moral. 

The closest I have been to serving in the army was working as a civilian at Longue Pointe. I learnt to pilfer from the best there and still have NATO codes etched in my memory. I asked my partner about this, she served as an officer in the Forces. She has regaled me with stories of her time in the army, more to my bemusement, but I do try to understand. We still attend a few army parties and my overall impression is that you have too many frat boy soldiers but there are some truly professional and dedicated people there.
Her answer was that it would be nice given that TH has targeted patriotism through it's associations with the military but that is was not necessary. Having the top general push for it was odd to her. 
I then asked my ex-roomate of over ten years (for some strange reason he enlisted twice). He has served in Cyprus. I can't relate what he told me after he stopped laughing as this is not a PG site. I also remember speaking to a member of my family who served as an MP after he came back from Bosnia - I don't think TH was high on his list of essentials. 

When it comes to appreciating our soldiers, I may have written here how disgusted I was by Montreal's mayor not even being able to show up for a short ceremony on Remembrance Day this year....

Now, if our little boy soldiers really want TH, they should pressure CANEX to do something about that....


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

K_OS said:


> my dad laughed his ass off when he heard about this he wished he had any brand of coffee when he and his platoon were stuck in the middle of the Angolan jungle in the late 60's.
> 
> Laterz


Yep... I remember when graphics designers didn't have layers in Photoshop,or Flash animations in the mid 90's. Heck, using your computer to lay out text instead of doing paste-up boards by hand.

You little brats have it good.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

LP,

I generally tune out AS when ever he talks about the military, or politics, or well just about anything not Mac related.

As a former soldier, I can't explain in words the simple things that make life better when you've been hauling around for 22 hours straight in a day, doing patrols or doing training. Whether it's Gagetown or Kandahar, soldiers' lives can be made so much better, if only temporarily, by simple things like a hot meal, or a familiar coffee.

AS's (no pun intended,  comments about soldiers and arguably the best General Canada's had in a long, long time, show his ignorance of soldiering. He may know people in the biz or who used to be in the biz, but you can never really understand what it's like to be dead tired, dirty, sometimes bloody, and all you want is something simple to cheer you up, unless you've been there.

I used to like a Kit Kat after I finished driving an armoured vehicle for 16 hours straight. Covered in grime and my arms sore, a chocolate bar and maybe a Gatoraide was a nice treat.. A coffee (even out of a ration was divine, from TH's, was amazing in the morning (or rather after two hours of rest).

I don't expect a conversation on an Internet Forum to enlighten AS. Sure for some soldiers, a TH coffee is meaningless. I'm sure they're not thinking about it when an RPG is heading for their heads. But sitting in Canada House, sipping on a CANEX special, a TH coffee might sound prettty damn good.

Anyway, I've wasted enough electrons on this post.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

AS you're being a goof on this.
They volunteer for tough duty with few perks and if THEY want a TH I'm all for it. I don't think WE - outside the forces -should have a single damn thing to say about it.

I know just enough about culture shock to know why such things are very very important to being effective in a strange.....let alone dangerous..... land.


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

I'm all for giving our soldiers things that will make their job easier. I'm a big supporter of our military and if a cup of coffee helps - I'm all for it. 

I wonder if there is a way to send them coffee as a care package?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MBD said:


> I wonder if there is a way to send them coffee as a care package?


Yes there is. The DND can help you set it up (but nothing over 20kg I believe).


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

NBiBooker said:


> I used to like a Kit Kat after I finished driving an armoured vehicle for 16 hours straight. Covered in grime and my arms sore, a chocolate bar and maybe a Gatoraide was a nice treat.. A coffee (even out of a ration was divine, from TH's, was amazing in the morning (or rather after two hours of rest).


When it comes to getting comforts the military has ways better than having Hillier complain about it to the media. 
There exist a system in place, albeit not perfect, of getting goods and services to soldiers. TH or any other private company should not be placed in what can be a odd position marketing wise.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ummm that's why the Fourth Estate is there to provide a forum when "channels" don't work.
How is Tim's in a "problem". Makes no sense at all to me.

•••

*The only redeeming quality their coffee has, is that it is hot.* you ever noted the amount of caffeine in a "regular coffee" versus say an espresso??

There's part of your answer.....and it is always fresh. Comfort food from home has got to be a factor for stressed culture shocked troops.

Such a silly tempest in a coffee pot. 

Interesting informative report in the Globe today on Canada's role in Afghanistan http://www.theglobeandmail.com/afghanistan


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Ummm that's why the Fourth Estate is there to provide a forum when "channels" don't work.


Right - that's my problem. 

I have no issue with the armed forces negotiating a suply agreement with TH, that would be a good thing. 

My problem is going to the media to pressure the other party OUTSIDE of the negotiations by generating massive bad publicity for them if they don't cave to the demands (yes, I know politicians, eployers and trade unions do this all the time. It's just as bad in that context)

Hypothetical example: Say I am negotiating with MacDoc to buy a Mac Mini, and I want him to throw in 3 hours of onsite installation for free. MacDoc is reluctant (understandably), so I take out an ad in the newspaper stating that I am in the final stages of negoatiation for MacDoc to provide free installation to everyone in town who buys a Macintosh (no matter how unprofitable that would be). Now MacDoc is in the position of having to deny people who will be upset that they aren't getting what they were 'promised', that MacDoc isn't a patriotic Mac supporter any more, and they may as well go elsewhere if they are treated shabbily like that.

It's one thing for the Military to buy TH coffee and serve it. Fine. But the story that was outed was that TH would set up locations in a de-facto war zone, presumably providing equipment and staff as well as coffee and donut dough. That is bad-faith negotiating, and I reject the premise that the press is there to get what you want if you can't get it fairly.


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## mazirion (May 22, 2005)

It would seem to me that AS has never been offered what the cooks in the field call 'coffee'. It's not really their fault. Those big 100 cup percolators were never really good for making coffee. What pours out of the spigot would turn you off coffee in no time at all - especially when it sits percolating for 6 hours! I know - served a couple years in the Navy and also a few years in the Army. Molst of my time has been spent in the Air Force, where, due to my trade, I haven't been too far from home too often. 

I think the real story WRT TH's is the matter of convenience. They are everywhere. Trenton now has 6 of them - the latest being in the CANEX parking lot. They may not make great coffee, but they are open 24 hrs a day. The Military operates on the same schedule. Or rather, TH's operates on the same schedule as us.

I am sure there is Timmies coffee over there now. The odd box here and there. It would be savoured like the elite savour truffles. Sure CANEX could do something for the troops - but that would (IMO) probably end up being not very much. Not having to make a Timmies all the time, and maybe getting a doughnut too woukd be amazing.

It really is the little things in life that make a HUGE difference.




Pete
CFB Summerside
HMCS Kootenay
CFB Edmonton
CFB Baden-Soellingen
CFB Petawawa
CFB Trenton
CFB Shilo, and now...
CFB Trenton (8Wg AR Flt)
(various TD's through the years)


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> We need a Tim Hortons franchise where those 2,000 plus soldiers and sailors and airmen and air women live in Kandahar," he said.
> 
> *Hillier invited the CEO of Tim Hortons to accompany him to Kandahar and set up a coffee shop. The company issued a statement making no promises but saying it would look at ways of fulfilling the general's request.*


This hardly seems threatening Tims with invasion. 

It's news - it's reported that way....as I said tempest in a coffee pot.

The bigger issue is the nature and size of Canada's role and where the money will come from.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> The bigger issue is the nature and size of Canada's role and where the money will come from.


I was surprised to see that many Canadians did not want our troops in Afghanistan. 

The only unease I have is in the seemingly small change from Peacekeeping efforts to a more aggressive role. I don't believe that we should be adjunct to the U.S. aspirations on the" war on terror". I think that our mission in Afghanistan suffered when the US invaded Iraq. If the war on terror had stayed in Afghanistan and real changes had been made there, there would not be that taint associated.



> Mr. O'Connor, who is a retired army general, acknowledged that the Afghanistan deployment is not like the typical United Nations peacekeeping mission that Canadians have been performing for years because the Afghan government is facing an insurgency.
> 
> A flourishing opium poppy trade compounds the problem, he said.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060227.wxafghanistan27/BNStory/National/home


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> Taking it rather personally there lpkmckenna?


Not really. And that's "conversational terrorism."  See: http://www.ehmac.ca/showthread.php?t=37630


> *LOOK AT YOU*:
> 
> After using any of the previous ploys, point out any physical manifestations of the other person's irritation as further proof that they are wrong.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I love that thread.  I expect to reference it a lot.


ArtistSeries said:


> As self-appointed philosopher king you should know that there is a difference between thinking that the TH request is ludicrous and being a spoiled brat.


You called our troops spoiled, so I turned it around on you. Fair's fair.


ArtistSeries said:


> I also remember speaking to a member of my family who served as an MP after he came back from Bosnia - I don't think TH was high on his list of essentials.


It's not an essential. But it would be worthwhile, regardless.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MBD said:



> I'm all for giving our soldiers things that will make their job easier. I'm a big supporter of our military and if a cup of coffee helps - I'm all for it.
> 
> I wonder if there is a way to send them coffee as a care package?


Look here: http://www.cfpsa.com/en/psp/Donations/index.asp

Letters are always appreciated, too: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/messageboard/index_e.asp


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Tim Horton's goes to Kandahar! http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/08/20060308-timmys.html?ref=rss

_In a news release issued Wednesday, Tim Hortons says it will convert a trailer and deliver it to the Canadian Forces for use in Afghanistan. Military personnel will be able to purchase selected baked goods and beverages, including coffee.

The Canadian Forces Personnel Support Agency, the morale and welfare arm of the Canadian Forces, will be responsible for staffing and training, and also for operation of the trailer._


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

That should distract that the boys are coming home in body bags...


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

...if the boys weren't already distracted by their "country club" lifestyle they enjoy out in the middle of hell on earth. :yawn:


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

I'm right there with ArtistSeries on this one. If they want to raise morale (and perhaps sensitivity) what about learning something about the culture in which they find themselves, rather than imposing Canadian culture (if Tim Horton's can be called that) on another country. Grow up (and make your own coffee).


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Wolfshead said:


> I'm right there with ArtistSeries on this one. If they want to raise morale (and perhaps sensitivity) what about learning something about the culture in which they find themselves, rather than imposing Canadian culture (if Tim Horton's can be called that) on another country. Grow up (and make your own coffee).


Grow up? LOL. Sage advice.

What makes you think the soldiers DON'T get involved in the community overseas and take in the culture? Obviously you've not talked to anyone who has served. Sounds like our boys should visit some museums! :lmao:

Then again, the last time someone interacted with the locals, he got an axe to the head. So much for that idea.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> Then again, the last time someone interacted with the locals, he got an axe to the head.


Which should lead to a debate of why the troops are there, no?
Don't feed the Harper/Bush line of asking about this is somehow unpatriotic. 
The role of Canadian soldiers is changing and it's asinine on the part of Harper and the Boys, as well as Hillier not to want to debate this. How long will they be there? Latest numbers was a decade or more. 

Traditionally, Canadians have been involved in peacekeeping missions. The axe to the head was a consequence of our soldiers being trained for peace. 


Now, instead of the military listening to Canadians, it dictates to politicians what it wants to do. 


> Few of the general's assertions, however provocative or dubious, seem to get challenged. His more memorable utterances are repeated often and scrutinized rarely.
> He is, apparently, an expert on complex geopolitical matters in faraway regions of the world.
> He knows exactly what the Canadian military should be doing, though logically in a democracy, military policy should follow foreign policy and should be determined by elected officials.
> He marches around the country lobbying newspapers, giving interviews and making speeches to anyone who will listen.
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...065&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

I think that until there is a proper debate in Parliament, let the boys come home in body bags -


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

ArtistSeries said:


> Which should lead to a debate of why the troops are there, no?


I thought this was about coffee? I guess it's difficult for you to hold your tonque in ANY conversation without bringin Harper and Bush into it, eh? :lmao:

Don't blame Harper... he didn't put them in Afghanistan.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

> Now Prime Minister Stephen Harper wants to stifle debate on why we have been drawn into George Bush’s war – perhaps because he’s really not sure. Listen to our Defence Minister Gordon O’Connor – “Canadian soldiers are not in Afghanistan to conduct combat operations”. Now listen to our Commander in Kandahar Lt. Col. Ian Hope – “we will continue to do the active offensive operations to counter our enemy”. And who can forget the eloquent explanation by our very Chief of Defence staff Rick Hillier – “We are heading to Afghanistan to kill scumbags”.


http://www.tbsource.com/Editorials/index.asp?cid=81042

I think that we should debate the expanded role that our forces are playing over there. Now if you go back a few pages, you'll see that I actually support our mission over there. If you prefer to drink Harpocrite kool-aid go ahead - it should not stop a legitimate debate. Our actions over there (from the treatment of prisoners to rebuilding schools) will dictate how Canadians are perceived.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> Our "little boy soldiers" are paid to do a job.
> In times of peace, army life can be quite mundane. When you are in a war zone, it should not be a country club just like home. You have a rec room, mess hall to relax. You set up satellite TV, phone, internet to keep in touch with the family. If you want to see your kids or your wife's face every morning, don't join the army or you should at least be aware of the facts of the job. "Creature comforts" are not part of the job in a war zone.



Maybe you should go over there and live their lives for awhile. Maybe then you could make an informed opinion.


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

Why, have you been over there, Cameo? How informed is your opinion? 

BTW MannyP, I was recently hospitalised with someone who HAS served over there (among other places). He was (is) suffering from PTSD. Don't assume that because someone disagrees with you, they know nothing.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I haven't stated my opinion have I?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> I thought this was about coffee? I guess it's difficult for you to hold your tonque in ANY conversation without bringin Harper and Bush into it, eh?


Okay Manny, how's this for tying it all up:
Tim Hortons and the Canadian military in Afghanistan? Makes sense, two formally owned Canadian institutions now controlled by American capitalist...


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

[


> Maybe you should go over there and live their lives for awhile


I don't know, sounds a bit like an opinion to me.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Cameo said:


> Maybe you should go over there and live their lives for awhile. Maybe then you could make an informed opinion.


Ahh the famous put yourself in their shoes argument.... 
Some, albeit popular, General strong-arming a corporation to set-up in a war zone on the pretext of "morale", was what I found stupid about this story (and still do). 
The solution that they came up with is fine - but I'm sure TH would of preferred the publicity without looking like it succumbed to media pressure.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Ahh the famous put yourself in their shoes argument....
> Some, albeit popular, General strong-arming a corporation to set-up in a war zone on the pretext of "morale", was what I found stupid about this story (and still do).
> The solution that they came up with is fine - but I'm sure TH would of preferred the publicity without looking like it succumbed to media pressure.


I got the impression from previous posts that you were criticizing the concept itself, not the strong-arming. Do you now not have a problem with something that may boost morale, even if it seems superficial? There seem to be a few threads to this: the idea itself, how the idea was publicised, and the broader question of Canada's role (which can be discussed without Harperitis, especially considering that to this point their role is 'Liberal'). I understand the concept of holding discussions (Liberals were not big on this either), but that's more of a 'why government does this' than 'why Harper does this'.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> Do you now not have a problem with something that may boost morale, even if it seems superficial?


Not at all. Just that the quest for Timmies seems to have overshadowed the actual mission. The question of priorities seemed rather distorted -


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> but I'm sure TH would of preferred the publicity without looking like it succumbed to media pressure.


That's NEVER a concern I would have for Tim's management decisions.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Wolfshead said:


> I'm right there with ArtistSeries on this one. If they want to raise morale (and perhaps sensitivity) what about learning something about the culture in which they find themselves, rather than imposing Canadian culture (if Tim Horton's can be called that) on another country. Grow up (and make your own coffee).


You are completely misinformed. Training on culture and history is a crucial part of the pre-deployment training that all Canadian soldiers undergo before being shipped-out. Beyond a doubt, every member of Canada's team in Afghanistan knows more about Afghani culture than any member of the House of Commons.


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

Ipkmckenna is right - I know soldiers in the Canadian military and it is truly impressive what they learn about history, culture and language of the area they are deployed in. It separates Canadians out from other forces in a very good way.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)




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## BooyaMcNasty (Feb 9, 2005)

A lot of things that have been said in this thread disgust me. 

This thread is a perfect example of a coward, an opinion and the internet. I bet that nobody here has the guts to walk onto a base or into an armoury and call a soldier "a little soldier boy" with "little class." If you think army life is soft or like a country club, then put your money where your mouth is and sign up. Get your son or daughter to sign up. 

I'm an infantry soldier with the CF. I have many friends who have been over. I hope to go over myself. I am professional, well trained and I know my job. I train my soldiers as a team and expect the best from them. I go to the gym to stay in shape, this rucksack won't carry itself. I don't expect to be coddled. I know that I'm going to be catching mortar rounds, dodging suicide bombers and axe wielders. When I drop off books and pens at an Afghani school, I'm not suprised when the enemy burns down the school once we've left the area. The roads are probably mined and I hope all the soldiers in my charge make it back.

If the body politic has told me that our foreign policy is to rebuild a country with the hope that one day kids there will be afforded the same opportunities that were handed to all of us, then that's what I'm going to do. I don't think that a large double double and the right not to be harassed by the public is too much to ask. I do the best job I can.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

I'm glad they're only using a converted trailer. When I first read this, I got the impression they wanted to build an actual franchise Tim Horton's.. with the sign and all... that to me seemed like a big fat "put your bomb here" target. But a little ol converted trailer seems pretty harmless to me.. and Canadians sure do seem to like the Timmie's... I like it every once in a while when they don't overdose my cup with cream and/or sugar, which is pretty rare. Honestly, how f****ing hard is it to get a double-double right??


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

BooyaMcNasty said:


> A lot of things that have been said in this thread disgust me.
> 
> If the body politic has told me that our foreign policy is to rebuild a country with the hope that one day kids there will be afforded the same opportunities that were handed to all of us, then that's what I'm going to do. I don't think that a large double double and the right not to be harassed by the public is too much to ask. I do the best job I can.


And I for one applaud you for it sir! :clap: :clap:


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

SINC said:


> And I for one applaud you for it sir! :clap: :clap:


I second Sinc's applause! :clap: :clap:


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

When one lives in a city with many military residents and only 15 km from Edmonton Garrison, where most of those troops are based, one learns the effect it has on families and the sacrifices they too make.

Thus the applause.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

booya- While your message was admirable and appropriate perhaps your testosterone laden choice of nick reduced it's weight. Y'know - like Psycho.....


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

BooyaMcNasty said:


> A lot of things that have been said in this thread disgust me.
> 
> This thread is a perfect example of a coward, an opinion and the internet. I bet that nobody here has the guts to walk onto a base or into an armoury and call a soldier "a little soldier boy" with "little class." If you think army life is soft or like a country club, then put your money where your mouth is and sign up. Get your son or daughter to sign up.


Since you seem to be implying that I am a coward, I'll tell you that I have voiced my opinion with soldiers during a party with copious amounts of alcohol - and I did not get the ass kicking that you hoped for. This was with officers, so it may not be entirely fair. I was informed that anything to help morale would be good. 

Now, as for joining the army, I view it as job nothing more. Your sanctimonious tone is amusing but have nothing against my children joining the army if they desire. 






BooyaMcNasty said:


> I'm an infantry soldier with the CF. I have many friends who have been over. I hope to go over myself. I am professional, well trained and I know my job. I train my soldiers as a team and expect the best from them. I go to the gym to stay in shape, this rucksack won't carry itself. I don't expect to be coddled. I know that I'm going to be catching mortar rounds, dodging suicide bombers and axe wielders. When I drop off books and pens at an Afghani school, I'm not suprised when the enemy burns down the school once we've left the area. The roads are probably mined and I hope all the soldiers in my charge make it back.


I would hope that you know your job - and as you state it's a job - I would expect nothing less. If going to the Gym helps you perform you duties and be more efficient, then I'd hope that it's part of your training... 
As for the hazards of the job, what do you expect in a place where you are not unanimously welcomed? 
As for not expecting to be coddled, you are making part of my argument for me. 






BooyaMcNasty said:


> If the body politic has told me that our foreign policy is to rebuild a country with the hope that one day kids there will be afforded the same opportunities that were handed to all of us, then that's what I'm going to do. I don't think that a large double double and the right not to be harassed by the public is too much to ask. I do the best job I can.


Voicing an opinion is now harassment? 
I feel so much better knowing that while some are putting on their flak jackets they will take the time to take a coffee break and that a TH is such a priority for the Army. Can't wait to hear about the first Harvey's in Kandahar....

Now, as for rebuilding a "country" - how much of that is really being done? It is not more rebuilding a city?

I found the following interesting - 
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Today/2006/03/06/1474843-sun.html
-------
How do Afghans treat the Canadians?

The reception is very mixed. A small number of Afghans are trying to kill Canadians. Among the average people on the streets, some people smile and are friendly. Others throw rocks.

Do the Canadian soldiers do anything to make the base seem more like home?

They have a big tent they call "Canada House" where they can drink coffee, play foosball, borrow videos and watch TV. They also have a big cement pad where they play ball hockey. There is another big tent run by the American army where soldiers can play Xbox and eat free snacks 24 hours a day. They can also go shopping at an American store called a PX that has almost everything, including footballs, DVD players, Game Boys and CDs.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Geez AS.

That is one of the most offensive bits of drivel I have ever had the misfortune to see you post.

Get a grip.

They are there because WE sent them. 

Perhaps it is time to go to bed?


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Apparently they are there for a vacation, SINC 

Glad they are getting the Timmies. They deserve it.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

RevMatt said:


> Apparently they are there for a vacation, SINC
> 
> Glad they are getting the Timmies. They deserve it.


Since there is no "salute" emoticon, this will have to do RevMatt:

^5!


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> They are there because WE sent them.


Some would disagree with you SINC - of course Harper and friends refuse to even talk about that...

I actually support the mission there (unlike most Canadians) - at the same time, we should examine why they are there, how long they will be there and what it will cost. You can even expand it to see how this mission is different from past mission and how it will affect Canadian perception overseas (will we now because a terrorist target?). 

As for offence, next time I will try harder.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Geez, I thought they were over there fighting for OUR beliefs. 

These are people away from home, family and friends. They are living a life that to me would be a nightmare. I believe they are doing it for us as a nation. What if we let the world treat us like dirt, what if we did nothing and stated that it was "their problem". Unfortunately other peoples/nations problems CAN become ours if we don't stand up for our beliefs. These soldiers are doing just that and we are going to begrudge them a simple home comfort? I think not. I think that most of them are doing the best job that they can, to coin Booya's phrase, and that they deserve whatever help that we can give them for doing a job none of us are prepared to do.
I have no real idea of what these men and women live through, and I don't want to.
I don't want to see some buddy lose an arm or a life from a mortar shell or a land mine. I sure as hell don't begrudge them something as simple as a timmies coffee.


NOW, I have stated my opinion.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

And a fine opinion it is, Cameo.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Personally I'd rather see Canadian Forces in a peacekeeping and nation building role. Police and civil institution building as opposed to strictly military roles the US and Brits are generally masters at.

This latest role seems to fall squarely in that zone and I think there are valid questions as to taking on that task.
How it fits with Canadians own vision of Canada's role in the world and perception of that role by the rest of the world. 

As to the "job" aspect I agree with AS - firefighters and police risk safety and are required to be fit.

It's an important job and there is a "representative of Canada to the world" aspect.

As such the "testosterone" aspect in both the general in charge and evidenced here is disturbing.

Winning a military engagement versus winning the peace and subsequent nation building are different tasks - my preference is with the latter skills for Canadian Forces.
Not for us to viewed as *"threat"*.........rather as *"help"*


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## DP004 (Mar 9, 2005)

First, see page one of the thread for the original subject.
The logistic of this donuts idea appears quite complex, expensive and dangerous.
But the army has cooks, the basic ingredients and ovens.
Why not having T.H. share the recipe and whatever tools needed to get that distinctive taste. With strict agreement on trade secrets of course.
And I don't mind them using my tax money for Tim's boxes, cups and whatever objects that can help creating a brief but so welcome illusion.
I leave to the soldiers themselves the opportunity to create their own T.H. space on base.

This is just my suggestion.
I have the weird feeling that I am off topic after all I read so far...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Oddly enough, you are much closer to topic than most.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

For those interested the Star has a special report on the situation in Afghanistan



> War: Canadian-style
> Bringing the war home | A special report
> Mar. 12, 2006. 06:52 AM
> MITCH POTTER
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...253&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

The note from the editor is worth a read for it's insight and heart felt sadness as well

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...e&cid=1142118641327&call_pageid=1140433364397


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Excellent piece, well worth the read. Thanks for that, Macdoc.

Tim Horton's has several 'mobile' Timmies which they use at temporary events or while a store is being renovated. It shouldn't be to much of a logistical issue to send one to Kandahar. The cargo airline I work for moved large amounts of materiel to 'Camp Julian' when it was being built. I'm sure we would help with the supplies after.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Kandahar
> Mar. 12, 2006. 07:44 PM
> SUSAN DELACOURT
> OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF
> ...


Clear enough.... - good for him. :clap:


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Score one for the Conservatives.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Good article, thanks. Good read. Too much to absorb to say more now.

SINC, that kind of comment is why others describe the trip as little more than a photo op. I know you weren't totally serious, but still. Too many others in voicing that opinion would be.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yeah, I thought of that after I hit the post button, but to be honest it is a great thing for the PM to do, given the extreme danger of making the trip. They're not using pea shooters over there you know.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

I agree that it is a good thing for the PM to do, since he is our PM. Not only a good thing, but, I would argue, an obligation. But what party he is from is, at that moment, irrelevant. We can go back to the party bickering once he is back


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Score one for the Conservatives.





> *No plans to visit Afghanistan, Harper say*s
> Mar. 1, 2006. 04:02 PM
> CANADIAN PRESS
> 
> OTTAWA — Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he has no plans to visit Afghanistan but adds his government will not waiver in its support for Canada's military and humanitarian missions there.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...le&cid=1141214868091&call_pageid=968332188492
Makes him a liar....  - nothing new for the cons, right SINC?



> The problem is many Canadians are not aware of the nature of this campaign. If they were, they might be more supportive.
> 
> A recent survey for CTV and the Globe and Mail revealed that 62 per cent of Canadians polled were against the Afghan campaign, while 73 per cent thought there should be a vote in Parliament on whether to continue the mission.
> 
> ...


http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Opinion/Editorials/2006/03/11/1482466.html




> Hillier and others in Canada's hawkish defence lobby — generals, politicians, military analysts and defence contractors — are therefore delighted by the transformation of our military role in Afghanistan into one that includes war-making.
> 
> And they're determined to maintain this hawkish turn in our military policy by shutting down public debate about it.
> In this, they have the full support of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who last week rejected calls for a Parliamentary debate, arguing, bizarrely, that it would endanger the troops.
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...666&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Makes him a liar....  - nothing new for the cons, right SINC?


Nope. It makes him an astute leader who plans visits to war zones in secrecy for security reasons. 

Too simple for you to grasp is it?


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

No, to me it's more the planners & security handlers surrounding him that were responsible for the secrecy, and Harper's just the mouthpiece for it all. Nothing astute about it.


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