# Chretien Book Rips Martin For Afghanistan War



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Finally the real truth about exactly who put our troops into a war zone and it wasn’t Harper:

*OTTAWA -- Former prime minister Paul Martin is responsible for Canadian troops ending up in the "killing fields" around Kandahar because he took too long to make a decision, former prime minister Jean Chretien charges in a new book.*
In a memoir likely to rip open old Liberal wounds and exacerbate divisions within the party only days before a possible plunge into a federal election, the former Liberal leader attacks Martin on several fronts, from his scheming to force Chretien out of office to Martin's handling of Canada's Kyoto environmental protocol commitments. He also argues that Martin has only himself to blame for the grief he suffered as a result of the sponsorship scandal.
And the former prime minister offers intriguing tidbits about such figures as former media baron Conrad Black and Queen Elizabeth II.
But Chretien, long described as a political brawler, takes off the gloves when it comes to Martin. He says manoeuvring by Martin and his supporters to push him out of the prime minister's office actually steeled his resolve to stay on.
He doesn't mince words.
"I was damned if I was going to let myself be shoved out the door by a gang of self-serving goons," Chretien writes after describing the hurt and betrayal he felt upon learning in the spring of 2000 about a meeting Martin supporters had held in a Toronto airport hotel. "By trying to force me to go, they aroused my competitive spirit, ignited my anger, and inadvertently gave me the blessing I needed from Aline (his wife) to fight for a third term. For that, ironically, I owed Paul Martin a great deal of thanks."
*Chretien also recounts that after the Taliban government of Afghanistan was overthrown, he carefully engineered things so Canada's soldiers were stationed around the safer area of Kabul, helping to rebuild the Afghan capital.
"Later, unfortunately, when my successor took too long to make up his mind about whether Canada should extend our term with the International Security Assistance Force, our soldiers were moved out of Kabul and sent south again to battle the Taliban in the killing fields around Kandahar," Chretien writes.*

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourn...=c0e1afee-7aa2-47df-92bd-776b5820ac4f&k=19818


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Come on Sinc, you know that this will be spun to blame Harper some how.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Finally the real truth about exactly who put our troops into a war zone and it wasn’t Harper:


You are quite thick aren't you? 
Harper is the one who wants to keep the troops there and quite happily so. 

But let's sidetrack, 'cause you know, that's what you and MF like to do so often.


> Our role in Afghanistan really about ties with U.S.
> 
> By appointing his new advisory panel on Afghanistan, Prime Minister Stephen Harper has inadvertently underlined what this war is about. It is not about Afghanistan. It is about the U.S.
> 
> ...


http://www.thestar.com/News/article/266634


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

JumboJones said:


> Come on Sinc, you know that this will be spun to blame Harper some how.


Harper could have pulled our troops out
So welcome to the big chair

"the buck stops here" comes to mind


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> Harper could have pulled our troops out
> So welcome to the big chair
> 
> "the buck stops here" comes to mind


It's so easy to blame Libs for all. Like Harper always lies that GHG were on the upswing... except that they had stabilized under the Libs (even the intensity targets were down).
http://www.ec.gc.ca/pdb/ghg/inventory_report/2005/2005summary_e.cfm


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Let me do it:

You know those bunch of Harpocrites...blah, blah...body bags...blah, blah..."Herr Harper...blah, blah...tax on Canada's poorest...blah, blah...Kyoto Accord...blah, blah...back to the Liberals...blah, blah...spinmesiter...blah, blah...Karl Rove...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Oops...I hit the "send" button too late!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

JumboJones said:


> Come on Sinc, you know that this will be spun to blame Harper some how.


Naturally JJ, "they" are never wrong about anything.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Oops...I hit the "send" button too late!


unfortunately we can't say the same about Herr Harper


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> unfortunately we can't say the same about Herr Harper


We can say that Paul Martin was too late in making up his mind, however.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

And why do you keep calling the Prime Minister "Herr Harper?"


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> We can say that Paul Martin was too late in making up his mind, however.


so you support Chretien and anoint him as expert?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Macfury said:


> We can say that Paul Martin was too late in making up his mind, however.


Please explain what you mean.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

ArtistSeries said:


> Please explain what you mean.


This:



> "Later, unfortunately, when *my successor took too long to make up his mind *about whether Canada should extend our term with the International Security Assistance Force, our soldiers were moved out of Kabul and sent south again to battle the Taliban in the killing fields around Kandahar," Chretien writes.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> It's so easy to blame Libs for all. Like Harper always lies that GHG were on the upswing... except that they had stabilized under the Libs (even the intensity targets were down).
> Canada's 2005 Greenhouse Gas Inventory - A Summary of Trends


This story is about a Fib blaming a Fib, or has Jean been converted to Conservative Blue?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> so you support Chretien and anoint him as expert?



I guess I have to give Chretien some credit for knowing what happened. He's been PM longer than I have.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> so you support Chretien and anoint him as expert?


No ones better an expert on PM than JC, right hand man turned back stabber.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

It's funny how the fright-wingers on this board used to blame Chretien for putting us in Afghanistan. 



> "As for Afghanistan, *Chretien suggests that Martin is partly to blame* for casualties because he "took too long to make up his mind" about Canada's role, and troops ended up being sent "to the killing fields around Kandahar."


A slight change of emphasis.... 

So, someone who has been accused of being a dirty fighter takes aim at his rival.. Okay then, it's the gospel according to Chretien is seems...

While dithers may have been dithering on this question , it remains to be seem how Canada did end up in Kandahar -


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I guess I have to give Chretien some credit for knowing what happened. He's been PM longer than I have.


He also said there was no much about AdScam....


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Macfury said:


> And why do you keep calling the Prime Minister "Herr Harper?"


Because Harper is a Nazi, right MS? So clever you are.

Better to have a set and be Herr Harper, than be sackless and be Stephanie Dion.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> While dithers may have been dithering on this question , it remains to be seem how Canada did end up in Kandahar -


I think it had something to do with us being members of a little group called NATO. As a conservative individual, I personally never had a problem with the Liberals decision to put us in Afghanistan. I think it was the right thing to do to honor our commitment to NATO.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacGuiver said:


> I think it had something to do with us being members of a little group called NATO. As a conservative individual, I personally never had a problem with the Liberals decision to put us in Afghanistan. I think it was the right thing to do to honor our commitment to NATO.


That it was - it is what the mission has become....


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> And why do you keep calling the Prime Minister "Herr Harper?"


because I still live in sort of a free country


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> because I still live in sort of a free country


Right, we allow anyone to show disrespect.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

JumboJones said:


> Because Harper is a Nazi, right MS? So clever you are.
> 
> Better to have a set and be Herr Harper, than be sackless and be Stephanie Dion.


bet ya Hitler and Stalin "had a set"
nice companytptptptp


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Right, we allow anyone to show disrespect.


even those that call a prime minster; "Mr. Dithers"


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> even those that call a prime minster; "Mr. Dithers"


While there was no punctuation to indicate that was a question, I'll guess it was indeed one.

Answer: Exactly.

Although a nickname based on one's inability to make a decision versus the use of a Nazi title intended to be a slur, are not even remotely connected.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't believe that most of the people you're tilting at had a problem with Chretien sending troops into Afghanistan, AS. They're merely pointing out the similarity of the policies of Mr. Martin and Mr. Harper in terms of troop commitment.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> even those that call a prime minster; "Mr. Dithers"


Pulling out the Hitler reference against somebody who doesn't share a belief is getting really old. It's also disrespectful to all the people who fought and died in WWII.

You can't compare that reference to something like Mr. Dithers. Completely different.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Vandave: Of course it is disrespectful and inappropriate--it's astonishing how little historical perspective some people have that they'll devolve to the Nazi references so quickly. I suspect it has something to do with a feeling of disempowerment when the majority of Canadians disagree with their political perspective.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vandave said:


> Pulling out the Hitler reference against somebody who doesn't share a belief is getting really old. It's also disrespectful to all the people who fought and died in WWII.
> 
> You can't compare that reference to something like Mr. Dithers. Completely different.


I guess we agree as I posted an hour and 45 minutes earlier:



SINC said:


> While there was no punctuation to indicate that was a question, I'll guess it was indeed one.
> 
> Answer: Exactly.
> 
> Although a nickname based on one's inability to make a decision versus the use of a Nazi title intended to be a slur, are not even remotely connected.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> While there was no punctuation to indicate that was a question, I'll guess it was indeed one.
> 
> Answer: Exactly.
> 
> Although a nickname based on one's inability to make a decision versus the use of a Nazi title intended to be a slur, are not even remotely connected.


you guessed wrong
it was a statement, not a question

"thank you, come again."
[in my best Apu, owner of Quik-E-Mart, voice]


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> you guessed wrong
> it was a statement, not a question
> 
> "thank you, come again."
> [in my best Apu, owner of Quik-E-Mart, voice]


Ah, and a poorly worded statement that led one to believe it might be a question.

Doesn't change the offensive use of the Nazi term Herr though.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Ah, and a poorly worded statement that led one to believe it might be a question.
> 
> Doesn't change the offensive use of the Nazi term Herr though.


nah, just a poor logic process on your part

Harper is a war monger, plain and simple
THAT'S offensive (if you excuse the double entendre)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> Harper is a war monger, plain and simple


I see--and as a result you think he is German...or a Nazi?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> I see--and as a result you think he is German...or a Nazi?


I hardly believe you "see" anything but a chance to troll...
[troll emoticon]


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> I hardly believe you "see" anything but a chance to troll...
> [troll emoticon]


I see this is another question you're too frightened to answer. No surprise here.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> I see this is another question you're too frightened to answer. No surprise here.


where are the 125,000 child care seats Harpo promised?

yeah, I know your reply; "Why do you keep calling Harper 'Herr Harpo?' "
note to SINC; "?" indicates a question


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Spec: Let's drop it. Your embarrassing yourself.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Spec: Let's drop it. Your embarrassing yourself.


MF-er, "you're" in need of spelling lessons


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm in need of a new keyboard. And you need to answer that question.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> I'm in need of a new keyboard. And you need to answer that question.


No, "you're" in need of spelling lessons.
Don't blame your poor keyboard for "your" ineptness.

Please review the above sentences as there will be a quiz on the usage of "you're" and "your."

And where are the 125,000 child care seats Harpo promised?
Harpo NEEDS to answer that question


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I would think that right now, the important question is not "Who is responsible for the troops being there?" but "When are arrangements to bring them home going to begin?"


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## Fink-Nottle (Feb 25, 2001)

Two points on this:
I agree that associating Harper with the NAZIs is in poor taste and trivializes the events of World War II. MACSPECTRUM, do you honestly see echoes of the concentration camps in Harper not delivering child care spaces or keeping troops in Afganistan?! Such comments can also backfire on you... I think the overblown rhetoric employed by the Liberals in the last federal election helped Harper win his minority government.
I would add that sticking the term 'Herr' in front of someone's name to imply he is a NAZI is offensive. This is the German translation of 'Mr'... I know you're not saying that all German men are NAZIs but that is the implication of using the term that way. The war finished 60 years ago and there's a lot more to German history than the Third Reich.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Fink-Nottle: I challenge this type of angry use of Nazi-by-association because it does a great disservice to historical perspective. Far better that people understand the true horror of Nazi-ism and Hitler's reign of terror, than to atempt to to score some petty insult points because:

a) the insulter has no historical perspective
b) the insulter has a beef about mere budget allocations.

It's like calling the local Post Office a group of Nazis because they said your package would be in--and it wasn't.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> Although a nickname based on one's inability to make a decision versus the use of a Nazi title intended to be a slur, are not even remotely connected.


Of course not.
So can I call Harper the little dictator?

Hey MF, happy that you are derailed another one? We should call you Rove North...
Your Faux-outrage is amusing.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

ArtistSeries said:


> So can I call Harper the little dictator?


Sure..it only diminishes the credibility of your posts.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Sure..it only diminishes the credibility of your posts.


His posts had credibility?


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Of course not.
> So can I call Harper the little dictator?
> 
> Hey MF, happy that you are derailed another one? We should call you Rove North...
> Your Faux-outrage is amusing.


In case you didn't notice we live in a democracy. Harper was rightfully elected Prime Minister by the Canadian people. The opposition is free to not support his platform and call another election.

See the difference?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Sure..it only diminishes the credibility of your posts.


and Harpo diminishes the PMO


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Vandave: Nothing will soothe some people's bad case of sour grapes.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Macfury said:


> Vandave: Nothing will soothe some people's bad case of sour grapes.


I wonder what they will say when Harper wins another government this Fall.

That said, I think the Liberals are running scared right now and won't show up for the vote. 

What will be the excuse for the usual lack of conviction by the Liberals?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Vandave said:


> That said, I think the Liberals are running scared right now and won't show up for the vote.


Vandave: That was suggested as a likely strategy in the _Toronto Star_ over the weekend. Make sure enough members hide, so that the remaining "red tide" can scream and carry on, impotently voting against any measures with impunity.

There's time for all that because Dion's rivals haven't finished sharpening their long knives yet.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MF: We really should be grateful to the Liberals for electing Dion as leader and assuring us of yet another Conservative government, likely a majority this time around.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Vandave said:


> In case you didn't notice we live in a democracy. Harper was rightfully elected Prime Minister by the Canadian people.


By how many? 
harper is the leader of the Conservatives and has acted that way. He has not acted like a PM yet.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

He has most certainly acted like a PM--but doesn't meet your definition because you haven't received a particular mix of free social programs.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> He has most certainly acted like a PM--but doesn't meet your definition because you haven't received a particular mix of free social programs.


he certainly has acted like a neo con
canadian casualties during his "reign" are 5x higher than under Martin
125,000 promised child care seats go empty
large increase in defence spending
doesn't want to answer questions from reporters
and there was that kitten eating incident...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> he certainly has acted like a neo con
> canadian casualties during his "reign" are 5x higher than under Martin


Still perpetuating the BS I see.

Forget that Martin put us there? 

And that if he was still PM the casualty count would be the same?

Oh, wait. I forgot. If Martin was PM it wouldn't be his fault.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I love Spec staying "on message" howling in outrage about those child care spaces. He's going to have a lot more to howl about when the country elects its second "Canada's New Government."


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Macfury said:


> I love Spec staying "on message" howling in outrage about those child care spaces. He's going to have a lot more to howl about when the country elects its second "Canada's New Government."


We won't have till wait too long, that is if the Liberals have the conviction to show up and vote.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Still perpetuating the BS I see.
> 
> Forget that Martin put us there?
> 
> ...


Gee, I even used the official language you seem most comfortable with to show proof that many more died under the Harper regime than under Martin and yet you still call it "BS."

And if Martin was PM and if the body count was that high, he'd be hearing from me often, as I make my opinion knows about the current Liberal war monger; Michael Ignatieff.

It was fun seeing him fall from grace during his leadership bid. He pi$$ed off a few too many people and lost his bid to lead the party, as the ABI (Anybody But Iggy) made itself heard. Money well spent in my opinion.

Cause and effect.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Iggy will be back!


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> It was fun seeing him fall from grace during his leadership bid. He pi$$ed off a few too many people and lost his bid to lead the party, as the ABI (Anybody But Iggy) made itself heard. Money well spent in my opinion.


In contrast to Dion falling from grace during leadership of the Liberal Party.

Money well spent indeed. :lmao:


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> Iggy will be back!


hopefully at Harvard


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Vandave said:


> In contrast to Dion falling from grace during leadership of the Liberal Party.
> 
> Money well spent indeed. :lmao:


Iggy's machine and money were massive
To defeat him and see him lowered to a shadow cabinet position was just desserts indeed


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

It's well understood that Dion is operating by Iggy's grace.


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## youngbd1 (Jul 2, 2001)

18,960 posts? Just popped in to say 'Hello'. I believe I'll retire (under withering fire).
youngbd1


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

youngbd1 said:


> 18,960 posts? Just popped in to say 'Hello'. I believe I'll retire (under withering fire).
> youngbd1


Hello to you as well. I lived in McMurray from 1981 through 1988.


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