# Have you driven a (Mayor) Ford lately?



## Lawrence

The Toronto Mayor Ford is now touting more of his brilliant solutions for Toronto.

Like Forcing the homeless into shelters this winter,
That'll be interesting considering a lot of them can't be forced into shelters because
they are mentally unstable and may lash out if they are forced into a shelter.

The war on the car is over apparently, Ford will put everything underground now,
Interesting to see how he's going to do it, Considering the contracts have been awarded already.

Underground streetcars?


----------



## Max

The man is bent. He doesn't have any other mode but aggro bentosity. He figures he can bull his way out of anything. In lieu of vision, he'll take action, even if it's a completely retrograde move.

Welcome to Fordtown!


----------



## adagio

Rob Ford is wrong. Let the homeless die. Poverty Inc will then have to find some other form of government handout. "Poverty" has become big business in Toronto. The money spent on the homeless issue could house every homeless person with their own condo. For those homeless folks who aren't completely nuts, hand them a broom or a shovel like they do in NYC in return for shelter.


----------



## Max

Let them die - but of course! May ten thousand roses bloom in the soil of their fetid, disgusting ashes. I can see them now, growing, always growing, rising splendidly upwards to the heavens; luxuriant growth sporting lovely, mesmerizing, multi-hued bouquets... a wonderful vision indeed; a bed of floral gusto ringing the heavily guarded perimeter of the fab new, massively large, infinitely cool, pyramid-shaped temple dedicated to the great man himself: Rob Ford, Saviour Of The COTU™.


----------



## Macfury

I agree with the subway plan and back Ford 100% in this. Write off the small percentage of the budget wasted on LRT and get back to underground infrastructure. It's a small price to pay for reversing the "Transit City" mistake.

I'm not sure you can force homeless people to go anywhere, but telling them to either get off the street or get into a shelter is reasonable. If he didn't force them inside there would be headlines about his heartlessness.


----------



## Max

You think the Shepherd subway will solve Toronto's transit woes? Really? Do tell. Sounds like the man's been snorting something - and it ain't fairy dust, much as he'd like Torontonians to believe in such a charming fable.

His insistence on strong-arming everything that doesn't naturally fit his vision will serve neither himself, nor the city, very well at all. That said, it does make for good theatre.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> You think the Shepherd subway will solve Toronto's transit woes? Really? Do tell. Sounds like the man's been snorting something - and it ain't fairy dust, much as he'd like Torontonians to believe in such a charming fable.


I think the Shepherd subway was an odd priority, but still prefer to see the transit underground. I'd rather see two or three additional stations to 100 miles of LRT.



Max said:


> His insistence on strong-arming everything that doesn't naturally fit his vision will serve neither himself, nor the city, very well at all. That said, it does make for good theatre.


If you liked what he was doing, you'd say he was a decisive leader. I happen to like it so far. A massive great antidote to wussy Miller and his NDP vision for Toronto.


----------



## Max

Glad we agree that the Shepherd line, as some kind of miraculous problem solver for the COTU's eternally botched transit plan, is an odd priority. Yet it remains enough for you to salute the man? Curious standard you're upholding there.

As for your second point: if you didn't like what Ford was doing, you wouldn't be such an apologist for him. Alas, you happen to like it so far - ergo, let the apologies commence. Drag in the past while you're at it, in the brash pretense that the new regime is somehow infinitely better than the previous one.

_Hoo boy._


----------



## Macfury

Max, it can't be _infinitely_ better a few days in--that would mean that there wasn't still much more of Miller's malfeasance to undo!

Regarding the subway--I mean that the original choice to branch off Sheppard (I can't believe I slavishly repeated the mis-spelling _Shepherd_ on your cue) would not have been my first choice. But that's what we've got to work with.


----------



## ehMax

Mrs. ehMax has driven a Mayor. 

*ZING!!!!!*

Sorry... it's a Friday night.


----------



## Greywolf

ehMax said:


> Mrs. ehMax has driven a Mayor.
> 
> *ZING!!!!!*
> 
> Sorry... it's a Friday night.


:clap: Shocking!


----------



## SINC

Hehehe, good one Mr. Mayor.


----------



## Max

MF: but you must admit it ain't much to work with, is it?

Leaving how the mayor deals with the homeless aside for a moment, the transit vision is rather screwy. On the one hand, he grandly declares that the war on the car is over (meaning the war on the bike, and everything else, is happily renewed), and on the other, he's informing us his grim intention to at least complete the Sheppard line (and yeah, my mistake on the spelling, ta for pointing that out - been out last night doing pints with my brother at the Strathcona)... it's not as if the approach is really one which embraces mass transit or meaningfully addresses how to move millions of cars around the GTA without adding any new infrastructure beyond a single subway line in the north end. I am simply not impressed. We'll leave aside for the moment his desire to ignore his councillors and his insistence that he alone can effectively represent the will of the city's inhabitants, though the pretensions of grandeur there are astonishing, given his electoral ploy of presenting himself as a man of the people.

But your contention that the mayor has his hands full undoing the malfeasance of the Miller years rings hollow to me. I suppose I must expect such a gambit though. This is rather like the pendulum-like liberal/conservative blame game which plays itself out on provincial and federal levels in a grand nod to history and an abiding trust in the public's short memory.

But back to homelessness. I'm waiting for Mr. Mayor to see the light about how forcibly cramming the homeless into their shelters at night might have some unpleasant repercussions he's not foreseen in his rush to be the COTU's turnaround king. For starters, there's the high rates of infectious disease and petty crime in the shelters... not to mention the problems associated with getting the mentally ill to "see the light." I wonder how the cops will play into his envisioned scenario. Will a new detachment of them be created and given special new uniforms - to sweep the ugly homeless people off the street as each and every night falls, thereby saving them from themselves? WIll a new team of lawyers be put to work dealing with the trampling of human rights stemming from forcibly rounding up this sorry lot and stuffing them into their special nocturnal holding pens?

At this point I am not convinced that Ford is eager to understand the problems governing this city presents him - he's more into sound bytes and optics - politics as usual. I imagine that if he does start to grok it all, he'll be humbled somewhat and begin to sound some more conciliatory notes - provided it's in him to do so, I might add. Meanwhile Ford plays to the suburban belt, them whut brung him in, and he's scoring points with that crowd. That part of the political game he well understands.

But a mayor of the people, with a subtle, nuanced grasp of what makes this city tick? No evidence of that so far.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Leaving how the mayor deals with the homeless aside for a moment, the transit vision is rather screwy.


In NYC Rudy Giuliani dealt with this by declaring that either the derelicts on the street were unwilling to enter shelters by choice or were there because they were mentally ill, so he made sure the mentally ill were placed in facilities that cared for--the mentally ill. The rest were told to go to shelters. I suspect a similar proposal might work here.



Max said:


> Leaving how the mayor deals with the homeless aside for a moment, the transit vision is rather screwy. On the one hand, he grandly declares that the war on the car is over (meaning the war on the bike, and everything else, is happily renewed), and on the other, he's informing us his grim intention to at least complete the Sheppard line (and yeah, my mistake on the spelling, ta for pointing that out - been out last night doing pints with my brother at the Strathcona)... it's not as if the approach is really one which embraces mass transit or meaningfully addresses how to move millions of cars around the GTA without adding any new infrastructure beyond a single subway line in the north end.


I thought you might have seen Rob Ford--just for a second anyway--as your shepherd. Ford did not promise to build massive new roads--only to stop drivers from being bullied and having roads shrunk by LRT systems and ill-advised bike lanes (the Jarvis Street debacle). The removal of the hated VR fee for Toronto drivers only was a great step toward that. If he actually makes the roads themselves better, I will buy him a small halo and declare him a saint.



Max said:


> We'll leave aside for the moment his desire to ignore his councillors and his insistence that he alone can effectively represent the will of the city's inhabitants, though the pretensions of grandeur there are astonishing, given his electoral ploy of presenting himself as a man of the people.
> 
> But your contention that the mayor has his hands full undoing the malfeasance of the Miller years rings hollow to me. I suppose I must expect such a gambit though. This is rather like the pendulum-like liberal/conservative blame game which plays itself out on provincial and federal levels in a grand nod to history and an abiding trust in the public's short memory.


I had reason within the realms of my employment to listen to Miller speak in person and essentially had to force myself not to throw eggs every time he spoke about bringing "good union jobs and other jobs to the city." Miller was a man for all good citizens--of the left--and if he ever represented my vision it was a curious accident. 



Max said:


> But a mayor of the people, with a subtle, nuanced grasp of what makes this city tick? No evidence of that so far.


There ya go. 48 hours in office and Max has got him pegged as a loser. I wasn't even that quick with Obama.


----------



## Macfury

ehMax said:


> Mrs. ehMax has driven a Mayor.


But then there's that little matter of the whore on cars...


----------



## groovetube

Here I was thinking the idea was to reduce the number of cars downtown, allowing the ones that need to drive there freer traffic. Silly me.

ANd here my car in the garage and a transit pass in my pocket.

The war on cars is over! Hot damn I'm gonna drive to work every day now then!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Here I was thinking the idea was to reduce the number of cars downtown, allowing the ones that need to drive there freer traffic. Silly me.
> 
> ANd here my car in the garage and a transit pass in my pocket.
> 
> The war on cars is over! Hot damn I'm gonna drive to work every day now then!


The little man is free to take the transit, while men of serious mien will drive.


----------



## Max

MF: Again with the little men schtick. It sounds like a complex you've been nurturing.

48 hours? You mustn't have been paying very close attention to my posts during the campaign; I offered my opinion long ago that Ford was a buffoon. I'm hoping he's a buffoon capable of learning something and eating humble pie; that remains to be seen. He has some time on his side and I'm content to wait and watch how he does. On the other hand, I am tickled that you are eagerly preparing to buy Ford a "small" halo - once again, your famed generosity of spirit shines like a beacon. I would expect no less from one who possesses the titanic force of will to restrain himself from pelting eggs at public officials holding high office. Huzzah for you, sir!

Presuming Ford wants to see mentally ill homeless people streamed into proper facilities, I wonder how he proposes to fund that. He doesn't strike me as the kind of man who wants to spend money on health care for the indigent and mentally ill - he just wants them out of sight because they're unpleasant and make him feel uncomfortable. So far the man is all about cutting funding, freezing funding, cutting zero services, taming those unions, making the city work but spending no extra funds while doing so. That's more than a few rabbits to pull out of the proverbial hat.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> MF: Again with the little men schtick. It sounds like a complex you've been nurturing.


Little men take the transit, Max. It's a well known fact. Oh, and if your car is busted and you can't find a cab.



Max said:


> 48 hours? You mustn't have been paying very close attention to my posts during the campaign.


I couldn't beat my way through the throngs to hear all of it.



Max said:


> I offered my opinion long ago that Ford was a buffoon. I'm hoping he's a buffoon capable of learning something and eating humble pie; that remains to be seen. He has some time on his side and I'm content to wait and watch how he does. On the other hand, I am tickled that you are eagerly preparing to buy Ford a "small" halo - once again, your famed generosity of spirit shines like a beacon. I would expect no less from one who possesses the titanic force of will to restrain himself from pelting eggs at public officials holding high office. Huzzah for you, sir!


Well, then we differ. I hope he eats no humble pie and keeps blasting his way across the political landscape. It will take the next lefty four years just to collect the pieces of the city as welfare state. Regarding Miller, I _was_ pretty proud of myself for not heckling the guy.



Max said:


> Presuming Ford wants to see mentally ill homeless people streamed into proper facilities, I wonder how he proposes to fund that. He doesn't strike me as the kind of man who wants to spend money on health care for the indigent and mentally ill - he just wants them out of sight because they're unpleasant and make him feel uncomfortable.


I guess I missed the speech where he said the mentally ill are so unpleasant he wants them scooped up like trash. Must have made the papers. Thankfully, hospital costs are borne by the province.



Max said:


> So far the man is all about cutting funding, freezing funding, cutting zero services, taming those unions, making the city work but spending no extra funds while doing so. That's more than a few rabbits to pull out of the proverbial hat.


That's a platform I can really get behind. Very succinctly put. So far... so good!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> In NYC Rudy Giuliani dealt with this by declaring that either the derelicts on the street were unwilling to enter shelters by choice or were there because they were mentally ill, so he made sure the mentally ill were placed in facilities that cared for--the mentally ill. The rest were told to go to shelters. I suspect a similar proposal might work here.


sounds like that could be rather pricey. where is toronto going to get the funds for that?

in fact, isn't taking public transit back underground even more costly? doesn't expanding the subway cost vastly more money then the proposed LTR? (not to mention the wasted money already spent).

Wasn't ford about fiscal responsibility?


----------



## Macfury

The "Transit City" LRT plan was budgeted at $8.15 billion.

Ford will replace it with a $3.5 billion Subway line. Looks like a good trade to me, even with the $130 million already spent.



i-rui said:


> sounds like that could be rather pricey. where is toronto going to get the funds for that?
> 
> in fact, isn't taking public transit back underground even more costly? doesn't expanding the subway cost vastly more money then the proposed LTR? (not to mention the wasted money already spent).
> 
> Wasn't ford about fiscal responsibility?


----------



## kps

I got the perfect place for Ford to put all the derelicts and mentally ill homeless persons. Let him round them all up and place them in Queen's Park for the night...after all, the place is empty by 3:00pm and no one shows for work until 10:30am.

Since Bobby Rae closed all the mental health centres and created lax release rules some 20 odd years ago and since Harris, Eves and McGuinty haven't done a single thing in the area of mental health, I think they should shoulder some of this city's burden with this problem.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> I got the perfect place for Ford to put all the derelicts and mentally ill homeless persons. Let him round them all up and place them in Queen's Park for the night...after all, the place is empty by 3:00pm and no one shows for work until 10:30am.
> 
> Since Bobby Rae closed all the mental health centres and created lax release rules some 20 odd years ago and since Harris, Eves and McGuinty haven't done a single thing in the area of mental health, I think they should shoulder some of this city's burden with this problem.


Who is building that gigantic Queen Street Mental Hospital complex, then?


----------



## Lawrence

i-rui said:


> sounds like that could be rather pricey. where is toronto going to get the funds for that?
> 
> in fact, isn't taking public transit back underground even more costly? doesn't expanding the subway cost vastly more money then the proposed LTR? (not to mention the wasted money already spent).
> 
> Wasn't ford about fiscal responsibility?


Heh...Skippy says it all in his blog (Caution language is colourful)

Heh...How about that the link won't work because of ehMac's language laws,
The link has the "F" word in it, So it won't open the link from here.

You get a word like ****ing instead in the link, Which won't work,
Oh well, If you want to read the blog, You'll just have to search the site.


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> Who is building that gigantic Queen Street Mental Hospital complex, then?


So you think all the mentally ill homeless are slated to be slotted in there, then? I see. Can't say as I agree there's going to be room for them all in that one facility. Pie in the sky!


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> So you think all the mentally ill homeless are slated to be slotted in there, then? I see. Can't say as I agree there's going to be room for them all in that one facility. Pie in the sky!


How many "mentally ill homeless" are there Max? Define the scope of the problem please.


----------



## Max

Kps: love your suggestion re Queen's Park. They have lots of space in that rambling complex.... plus there's the added benefit of the pols rubbing shoulder with MF's beloved little people! That way everyone involved can stay in touch with the priorities of each and every camp and, you know, stay real.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The "Transit City" LRT plan was budgeted at $8.15 billion.
> 
> Ford will replace it with a $3.5 billion Subway line. Looks like a good trade to me, even with the $130 million already spent.


you're comparing the whole transit city plan to just the sheppard line cost. The LRT for sheppard was budgeted at 1 billion. He's just more than tripled the cost.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> you're comparing the whole transit city plan to just the sheppard line cost. The LRT for sheppard was budgeted at 1 billion. He's just more than tripled the cost.


Exactly what I'm comparing. He's scrapping the entire Transit City in favour of additional subway stations. Where they're located is not the point.


----------



## Max

MF isn't interested in equal comparisons, i-rui. That's for the _little people_, silly! Note also that he has resounding faith in Ford as a magician. A touching sentiment, really. I await Ford's stage of destroying everything so he can rebuild it all - another thing MF is on record for fervently believing in.

Kewl.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Who is building that gigantic Queen Street Mental Hospital complex, then?


These guys?



> As a public hospital, CAMH receives its operating funds from the Toronto Central Local Health Integration Network (TC LHIN). Research grants and funds for special programs are received from the University of Toronto, Foundations and other granting and funding bodies.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> MF isn't interested in equal comparisons, i-rui. That's for the _little people_, silly!


The cheapest way to serve patrons on the former LRT plan site would be to provide bicycles--that's an equal comparison. My point is that LRT only provides service for the little people at the expense of traffic. To me, its a non-starter unless it runs across an unused field somewhere. Wait--maybe we can run the LRT underground!



Max said:


> I await Ford's stage of destroying everything so he can rebuild it all - another thing MF is on record for fervently believing in.


I never suggested I wanted anyone to rebuild it "all." I said that the next lefty who comes to power will feel the need to re-create from the ashes of destruction. It's _my_ fervent hope that whatever Ford busts stays busted.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> These guys?


Sure, but:



> Created by the Ontario government in March 2006, LHINs are 14 not-for-profit corporations who work with local health providers and community members to determine the health service priorities of our regions. .... As LHINs, we oversee nearly two-thirds of the $37.9 billion health care budget in Ontario.


----------



## kps

and I would image a lot of private enterprise money. The complex is a mix of public health care, commercial and residential space.

Does it not also result in closings of 33 Russel, Clark and some other facillities? After 150 years it needed a 'refresh'. It also does not mean this project will solve the problem of mental patients put out to the streets.


----------



## Macfury

I'm not sure how many it will hold, But you said:

"Harris, Eves and McGuinty haven't done a single thing in the area of mental health..."



kps said:


> and I would image a lot of private enterprise money. The complex is a mix of public health care, commercial and residential space.
> 
> Does it not also result in closings of 33 Russel, Clark and some other facillities? After 150 years it needed a 'refresh'. It also does not mean this project will solve the problem of mental patients put out to the streets.


----------



## kps

Just for you Macfury, allow me to rephrase that:

"Harris, Eves and McGuinty *have done very little* in the area of mental health..."


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> MF: Again with the little men schtick. It sounds like a complex you've been nurturing.
> 
> 48 hours? You mustn't have been paying very close attention to my posts during the campaign; I offered my opinion long ago that Ford was a buffoon. I'm hoping he's a buffoon capable of learning something and eating humble pie; that remains to be seen. He has some time on his side and I'm content to wait and watch how he does. On the other hand, I am tickled that you are eagerly preparing to buy Ford a "small" halo - once again, your famed generosity of spirit shines like a beacon. I would expect no less from one who possesses the titanic force of will to restrain himself from pelting eggs at public officials holding high office. Huzzah for you, sir!
> 
> Presuming Ford wants to see mentally ill homeless people streamed into proper facilities, I wonder how he proposes to fund that. He doesn't strike me as the kind of man who wants to spend money on health care for the indigent and mentally ill - he just wants them out of sight because they're unpleasant and make him feel uncomfortable. So far the man is all about cutting funding, freezing funding, cutting zero services, taming those unions, making the city work but spending no extra funds while doing so. That's more than a few rabbits to pull out of the proverbial hat.


yeah the little man thing is pretty humorous. But it's generally what macfury resorts to when someone makes a point that has the chance to make sense. He certainly wouldn't want to wade into lest he fail.

Performance anxiety? Who knows...


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The "Transit City" LRT plan was budgeted at $8.15 billion.
> 
> Ford will replace it with a $3.5 billion Subway line. Looks like a good trade to me, even with the $130 million already spent.


8.15 to move an awful lot of people downtown, getting more cars OFF the road.

3.5, to well we're not really sure, but based on the ridiculous billions spent on the subway to nowhere, we can take a small guess.

And Ford has been in city council for ten years. If you don't know by now what this liar stands for, it's perhaps time to catch up.

This is an interesting read. Strangely familiar isn't it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_O'Brien_(Canadian_politician)


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> 8.15 to move an awful lot of people downtown, getting more cars OFF the road.


Why are you so excited about getting cars off the road? That's where they belong.

Oh, I get it--you forgot that Miller is no longer mayor!


----------



## groovetube

because that's how you reduce gridlock genius.

Reduce the number of brilliants who drive solo downtown when they could take the transit, and help clear the smog and traffic congestion. Make it easier on the drivers who -need- to use a vehicle downtown.

It's amazing what you can think of when you consider the absolute obvious.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> because that's how you reduce gridlock genius.
> 
> Reduce the number of brilliants who drive solo downtown when they could take the transit, and help clear the smog and traffic congestion. Make it easier on the drivers who -need- to use a vehicle downtown.
> 
> It's amazing what you can think of when you consider the absolute obvious.


_You_ do the obvious. I'm driving.

I love it when a plan comes together.


----------



## groovetube

well then enjoy the gridlock and stop whining. Expecting the fat guy to fix things up for you and your car will be rather disappointing I'm afraid, but you'll find that out soon enough.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> well then enjoy the gridlock and stop whining.


I'm not whining. I'm happy with the way things are going.


----------



## groovetube

Oh I coulda sworn I heard the moans and groans about shrinking roads and bike lanes.

You just wait til more of the transit riders say P on this crappy transit system that got worse, I'll drive to work... and the cyclists who are pushed of the road ands back into cars. You think the gridlock is bad now? HAH! Ford will have to start razing houses and businesses to widen roads.

I bet the moans and groans will be epic.

I can practically walk to work if I had to from here, so your plight is of little consequence to me other than the continual pollution you'll be belching in spite of your insistence pollution is something we should consider above global warming.

The beliefs in the coming driver utopia is gonna come to a hard crash in a few years.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Oh I coulda sworn I heard the moans and groans about shrinking roads and bike lanes.


That's SO last mayor.


----------



## groovetube

Hopefully Toronto fares better than Ottawa did under O'Brien and his promises that were almost identical.

Funny how the right wing always think that spending tons of cash on other things and reducing revenue results in a balanced budget. And... they promise no reduced services.

lmao.


----------



## Macfury

To be honest, I want massively reduced services as well, which is why I have a little reservation over Ford. I wish he would promise them now so I don't have to wait in anticipation over the next year.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> To be honest, I want massively reduced services as well, which is why I have a little reservation over Ford. I wish he would promise them now so I don't have to wait in anticipation over the next year.


I'm massively curious as to which particular services that would be?


----------



## groovetube

nobody cares what YOU want macfury, unfortunately. Since the majority of Torontonians don't want reduced services, and when it happens will be pretty ticked, people like mr. Ford have to lie to get elected.

That whole cake and eat too thing, that's why mr. Ford will fail.

4 years, of treadin' water, and nothing will really actually improve. As it was already mentioned, his re-election will depend mainly on how well he can blame someone else for his failures/the gullibility of voters. Which is proibably pretty high based on this election.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> 4 years, of treadin' water, and nothing will really actually improve. .


Improvement is in the eye of the beholder, what works for some, doesn't for others.

Like the poor old fella who's house got expropriated for a new subway entrance on the Danforth probably doesn't see it as an improvement.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The cheapest way to serve patrons on the former LRT plan site would be to provide bicycles--that's an equal comparison.


that's not an equal comparison at all. A bike is not equal to a working public transit. It's ridiculous to even *pretend* to suggest so. A bike can't get from A-B as fast. A Bike doesn't offer cover from the elements. Disabled, elderly or sick people may not be able to ride a bike. You can't ride a bike while carrying 2 bags of groceries....etc...etc...



Macfury said:


> Wait--maybe we can run the LRT underground!


Hey that'd be great, and if we had endless money that'd be the ideal solution. But we don't, and i can't see how a mayor who got elected on the platform of cutting costs and fiscal responsibility gets off the hook when he unveils that as his public transportation strategy. Underground happens to be THE most *expensive* solution.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> that's not an equal comparison at all. A bike is not equal to a working public transit. It's ridiculous to even *pretend* to suggest so. A bike can't get from A-B as fast. A Bike doesn't offer cover from the elements. Disabled, elderly or sick people may not be able to ride a bike. You can't ride a bike while carrying 2 bags of groceries....etc...etc...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey that'd be great, and if we had endless money that'd be the ideal solution. But we don't, and i can't see how a mayor who got elected on the platform of cutting costs and fiscal responsibility gets off the hook when he unveils that as his public transportation strategy. Underground happens to be THE most *expensive* solution.


But hey he's RIGHT WING and promised to end the gravy train!!! YAAAAAYYY!!!!!

I think it's beer and wings night, gotta go.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> that's not an equal comparison at all. A bike is not equal to a working public transit. It's ridiculous to even *pretend* to suggest so. A bike can't get from A-B as fast. A Bike doesn't offer cover from the elements. Disabled, elderly or sick people may not be able to ride a bike. You can't ride a bike while carrying 2 bags of groceries....etc...etc...


Macfury was being facetious about the bikes...




> Hey that'd be great, and if we had endless money that'd be the ideal solution. But we don't, and i can't see how a mayor who got elected on the platform of cutting costs and fiscal responsibility gets off the hook when he unveils that as his public transportation strategy. Underground happens to be THE most *expensive* solution.


Classic chicken and the egg. Subways need huge numbers of riders to be sustainable while smaller LRS need less in both riders and infrastructure.

However, considering this area is to grow by another million people within the next 5-10 years, going underground is undoubtedly the better plan. This city should have already had an Eglinton line from the far reaches of Scarborough to Pearson International, perhaps a Woodbine line all the way to Markham and a Keel line straight into Vaughn. Think how much less traffic there would be on the DVP if a subway line would parallel it.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Macfury was being facetious about the bikes...


+1



kps said:


> Classic chicken and the egg. Subways need huge numbers of riders to be sustainable while smaller LRS need less in both riders and infrastructure.
> 
> However, considering this area is to grow by another million people within the next 5-10 years, going underground is undoubtedly the better plan. This city should have already had an Eglinton line from the far reaches of Scarborough to Pearson International, perhaps a Woodbine line all the way to Markham and a Keel line straight into Vaughn. Think how much less traffic there would be on the DVP if a subway line would parallel it.


Exactly. Even 7 subway stations in the right direction is better than triple the distance using the wrong type of infrastructure. Much of the year, we're a cold city with lots of problems keeping snow cleared from surface routes as well. Competing with surface traffic is not the solution if we're cramming more people into the same area. 


Next should be an Eglinton line extending west to Pearson from Eglinton West station.


----------



## Lawrence

I was trying to find a link, But I can't find one at the moment,
But didn't Mel Lastman sell the two tunneling machines that Toronto used to own?

If he did in fact sell them, Then that would mean that Ford would have to get new ones,
Or if possible lease some new ones somehow.

That's if Ford does in fact get the go ahead to start building subways.


----------



## Adrian.

Ford is an absolute idiot.

He will put this city in an enormous deficit and get us nowhere.


----------



## Lawrence

Adrian. said:


> Ford is an absolute idiot.
> 
> He will put this city in an enormous deficit and get us nowhere.


He does make me read more though

Just read this thread from start to finish.

They Heard The News Today, Oh Boy: Rob Ford Loves Subways Edition


----------



## Fac1

To those against Transit City, what are your thoughts on a Downtown Relief Line instead of an extended Sheppard line? It would serve far more people and actually has a chance at recovering some money, unlike Sheppard, which doesn't have the density to warrant heavy rail. Lastman's decision to start that line was a mistake and it would be a mistake to pour even more money into it when its density doesn't warrant such expansion. Beyond that, I have serious doubts as to how Ford's ideas on budgeting and time-line for this expansion. He claims it will be complete by 2015, yet the YUS expansion, approved around 3 years ago, hasn't even had tunnel boring begin and isn't expected to be completed until 2018. Ford's claims are just unrealistic... 



> However much less than $3-billion is in fact available to the city for subways, the province has made it quite clear that’s all there’s going to be. A recent TTC briefing document obtained by Post reporter Natalie Alcoba pegs the cost of the Sheppard subway expansion alone at $3.6-billion, plus up to $500-million for a new maintenance facility — and that doesn’t include Mr. Ford’s promise to extend the line west to Downsview station. The document pegs the cost of converting the Scarborough RT to a subway at an additional $3.1-billion. These plans differ somewhat from Mr. Ford’s, but all told that’s more than $4-billion more than he seems to have at his disposal!


To be insistent on heavy-rail is one thing, but putting this rail along a relatively low density route is a mistake. A combination of light-rail and heavy rail is needed. I'd prefer light-rail along Sheppard and heavy-rail for a downtown relief life, which obviously has the density to support it. Eglinton makes a lot more sense for subway expansion and Transit City does include a stretch from Keele to Laird which is underground because the density is too great for right-of-way LRT vehicles. Scrapping Transit City entirely just for an expansion on Sheppard is a mistake.


----------



## Macfury

Wichh Downtown Relief Line? The one planned in '85?


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Wichh Downtown Relief Line? The one planned in '85?


Perhaps the Queen Street line from Yonge street to the Beaches?
I think there is some work started on that line, But...I think they have a water problem.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> However, considering this area is to grow by another million people within the next 5-10 years, going underground is undoubtedly the better plan. This city should have already had an Eglinton line from the far reaches of Scarborough to Pearson International, perhaps a Woodbine line all the way to Markham and a Keel line straight into Vaughn. Think how much less traffic there would be on the DVP if a subway line would parallel it.


i agree with this, and if he was scrapping transit city to implement more subway lines *where they're neede*d i'd be ok with it. But for him to do this would be enormously expensive and would raise everyones tax dollars, and his supporters are just too shortshighted to understand this.

And so instead he will scrap a plan for a problem that *must be solved* and replace it with a different solution that does *nothing* about *the* problem.


----------



## Max

Ford is playing politics - it's certainly not to be confused with planning for the city's growth over the coming decades.

MF, meanwhile, is breathlessly anticipating new Ford promises. I can hear his fluttering heartbeat from way over here!


----------



## groovetube

there's one born every minute. The fluttering sound increases!


----------



## Fac1

Macfury said:


> Wichh Downtown Relief Line? The one planned in '85?


Along those lines, yes. The idea is to connect Dundas West with Pape with larger "U" so as to serve the various neighbourhoods in these areas (Roncesvalles, Parkdale, College West, Trinity-Niagara, Liberty Village, the waterfront, at which point it would cross downtown, and possibly connect with Union, before going east into St. Lawrence, Distillery, and Riverdale. Eventually, this two termini would be be expanded northwards as well, from Dundas West it could reach Eglinton and Keele, and possibly interface with a future Eglinton subway line, and in the east end, it could go from Pape up towards Thorncliffe and Leaside. 

The Yonge and Spadina lines are extremely crowded at the moment, and will get even worse with the northward extensions that will be completed in around 7-8 years. The city desperately needs a better way to balance these crowds, as anyone that uses the Yonge line, especially in rush hours, can attest to.

Having a better heavy-rail network in the city proper and building LRTs in the surrounding areas, whose density does not warrant a full subway line, makes much more sense and would be an improvement over the buses they currently take. Unfortunately, without significant government support, especially at the federal level, this won't happen any time soon. Toronto already has one of the highest farebox-recovery ratios in North America, something which won't change unless we suddenly attain the same density of Asian cities which are easily able to turn a profit, or we receive larger subsidies. 

Here is a good illustration of it:


----------



## kps

^^^That was a good plan...the sad part is we should have had this 10 years ago. Instead we got Lastman's boondoggle in the form of the Sheppard line.


----------



## Max

Agreed with the last two posts, big time. The Sheppard line was a purely political play - not part of an integrated plan meant to benefit commuters spread out across the breadth of the GTA.

In his quest to singlehandedly win the battle for cars, Ford will lose the war for a workable city. A dubious campaign if ever there was one.


----------



## Fac1

kps said:


> ^^^That was a good plan...the sad part is we should have had this 10 years ago. Instead we got Lastman's boondoggle in the form of the Sheppard line.


Not to mention the Eglinton West line which could have easily served Pearson, and which was under construction, until Eaves pulled the plug in 1995.


----------



## groovetube

Yep.

I've always said if money were spent on a subway, it needs to be along king/queen pretty much like the red line. It would relieve a serious amount of pressure on the bloor line, and likely quite a bit off the gardner if it were well connected to transit heading west and east.

But ford is way too stupid to figure this out.


----------



## Max

Groove: Ford's simply not interested. I wouldn't call him stupid; he's a shrewd politico with decent instincts. He's just playing to his own crowd - as long as he's got them on his side, he's fine with whatever he says and does in the public eye.

That strategy makes him just another average mayor in a long line of same. Perhaps the COTU simply gets what it deserves - no more, no less.


----------



## kps

Fac1 said:


> Not to mention the Eglinton West line which could have easily served Pearson, and which was under construction, until Eaves pulled the plug in 1995.


Yup, should have connected right to that massive parking complex on Viscount Rd. and the 409 where the airport monorail is serving all the terminals. Short sighted morons, all of them.


----------



## Fac1

groovetube said:


> Yep.
> 
> I've always said if money were spent on a subway, it needs to be along king/queen pretty much like the red line. It would relieve a serious amount of pressure on the bloor line, and likely quite a bit off the gardner if it were well connected to transit heading west and east.
> 
> But ford is way too stupid to figure this out.


It would relieve the Yonge and Spadina lines even more, not to mention the 501 (Queen) and 504 (King) streetcars, which should be of interest to those who want to stop "the war on cars." If the Sheppard line is indeed completed, can you imagine how overcrowded an already at-, or over-capacity Yonge line will be with all of the Scarborough commuters coming in at Yonge and Sheppard? XX)


----------



## Max

Would be nice to one day have a Queen or King line, an Eglinton line and a Sheppard line - and, in time, a parallel line further north.

When I grow webbed feet.


----------



## Fac1

Max said:


> Would be nice to one day have a Queen or King line, an Eglinton line and a Sheppard line - and, in time, a parallel line further north.
> 
> When I grow webbed feet.


You mean this? :lmao: (56k warning)


----------



## groovetube

it isnt like I'm screaming for a property tax freeze or cut. 

Put out a sane plan that makes transit in Toronto a real plan that works, and you'll see the real COTU (south of lawrence) get behind it.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> it isnt like I'm screaming for a property tax freeze or cut.
> 
> Put out a sane plan that makes transit in Toronto a real plan that works, and you'll see the real COTU (south of lawrence) get behind it.


You don't have to take a tax cut. The city accepts donations.


----------



## groovetube

sorry macfury, but there's no tax cut. In fact I can assure you it'll go up after he realizes freezing only made it worse.

you've been had. It's all going to go to a failed subway to nowhere somewhere in scarberia.

enjoy change.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> sorry macfury, but there's no tax cut. In fact I can assure you it'll go up after he realizes freezing only made it worse.


Not if he slashes spending--and he will. But I suspect you won't enjoy that change.


----------



## groovetube

macfury still hasn't figured this out yet.

no one slashes spending, not in a truly meaningful way. They simply divert it to what their friends, *cough* er, priorities are.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> macfury still hasn't figured this out yet.
> 
> no one slashes spending, not in a truly meaningful way. They simply divert it to what their friends, *cough* er, priorities are.


Ya sound like an old man talking, GT. Even if that old saw were true, I'd rather Ford's friends get it than Miller's.


----------



## Lawrence

Fac1 said:


> You mean this? :lmao: (56k warning)


Nice...I think I'll use that as a desktop picture for awhile.

Thanks


----------



## Fac1

dolawren said:


> Nice...I think I'll use that as a desktop picture for awhile.
> 
> Thanks


Good idea, I just made it my desktop too.

Here are a bunch of other fantasy TTC maps.


----------



## Macfury

dolawren said:


> Nice...I think I'll use that as a desktop picture for awhile.


The map says it's not to scale--so the time scale is off too.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> The map says it's not to scale--so the time scale is off too.


That's okay, I'll just stretch it to fit,
I'm sure that's what Mayor Ford would do.

Try to make it stretch to fit that is.


----------



## adagio

I'm drooling over those dream TTC subway maps. We can laugh and giggle all we want over them. That's what it is going to take to get cars off the road. 

Just supposing right now it's -10C. I have a choice of taking 2 buses and approx 1.5 hours of my time, freezing my backside with frost bitten toes to go to the mall OR get in my car and drive. Driving time is 15 min max in rush hour. It's a no brainer which mode of transport I'd chose. If I had a subway at my door the whole game changes. It's nice to dream.


----------



## groovetube

15 min max downtown?

you're dreaming.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> 15 min max downtown?
> 
> you're dreaming.


Yeah as opposed to 1.5 hours... Riiiiiiight


----------



## groovetube

If I drive to the eaton center, vs taking the subway, driving is not only double, but parking costs are insane.

This like when ford was belching about city council's free zoo passes costing taxpayers 20 MILLION dollars.

The nonsense is just hilarious. And people buy it.


----------



## adagio

groovetube said:


> 15 min max downtown?
> 
> you're dreaming.


Where did I say it was to downtown? You make assumptions based on your myopic view of the City of Toronto. Yours is the mentality of the downtown dwellers and the reason why Ford won the election by a landslide. You really don't "get it".


----------



## groovetube

No, YOU don't get it. Because downtown is where transit is needed.

We don't need to spend BILLIONS of dollars for yet another subway no one takes to nowhere.


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> I'd rather Ford's friends get it than Miller's.


Oh good, a further refinement of the macfurian ideal: not only are you anxious for Ford to wreck everything, you want his cronies to make off with the public loot!

Now _that's_ vision.

____________________________

That striking Transit City map, and people's noted enthusiasm for it, reminds me of how chicken and egg the whole deal is. Most people avoid the TTC at all costs and I can't say I blame them. They'd only want it if it's already in place, is clean and fast and efficient. No one wants to wait 40 years for this thing to happen. Even once it was in place there's no guarantee it would work well or that the people staffing it would be on the case (remember the snoozing TTC dude in his booth?). I look at this 2050 map and I see Montreal right now - it works and it moves a lot of people around fairly efficiently - in many places significantly deeper underground, too, with more connecting lines. With less outdoor/above ground stations, the Montreal metro doesn't feel anywhere near as chilly in the wintertime... and those rubber wheels don't scream bloody murder as the trains hit a curve. I'm sure the system has its own problems and it hasn't seen any fresh extensions in a long time either, but it remains a useful comparison.

Back to the hapless COTU, though. If the city can't get its public transit act together - if reliance on the car truly is our grand plan - then we deserve everything coming to us.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Oh good, a further refinement of the macfurian ideal: not only are you anxious for Ford to wreck everything, you want his cronies to make off with the public loot!
> 
> Now _that's_ vision.
> 
> ____________________________
> 
> That striking Transit City map, and people's noted enthusiasm for it, reminds me of how chicken and egg the whole deal is. Most people avoid the TTC at all costs and I can't say I blame them. They'd only want it if it's already in place, is clean and fast and efficient. No one wants to wait 40 years for this thing to happen. Even once it was in place there's no guarantee it would work well or that the people staffing it would be on the case (remember the snoozing TTC dude in his booth?). I look at this 2050 map and I see Montreal right now - it works and it moves a lot of people around fairly efficiently - in many places significantly deeper underground, too, with more connecting lines. With less outdoor/above ground stations, the Montreal metro doesn't feel anywhere near as chilly in the wintertime... and those rubber wheels don't scream bloody murder as the trains hit a curve. I'm sure the system has its own problems and it hasn't seen any fresh extensions in a long time either, but it remains a useful comparison.
> 
> Back to the hapless COTU, though. If the city can't get its public transit act together - if reliance on the car truly is our grand plan - then we deserve everything coming to us.


perhaps Max, but the actual COTU voted almost enmass -against- Ford, for obvious reasons. We knew this clown was a liar and is going to waste whatever little dollars we have on some grand plan that will do very little.

But, some are rather gullible, rather, you know, like this...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






and macfury's insistance he's ok with Ford's buddies getting our money, well, there's the crack in his libertarian game.


----------



## Macfury

adagio said:


> Where did I say it was to downtown? You make assumptions based on your myopic view of the City of Toronto. Yours is the mentality of the downtown dwellers and the reason why Ford won the election by a landslide. You really don't "get it".


Yep, if you're talking about getting from Sherbourne and Carlton to the Eatons Centre, it's a whole different ballgame, and certainly one which has the downtown set discombobulated. They assume everyone can actually SEE the Eatons Centre from where they live. Transit expansion? Great! It helps them to get from downtown to wherever they need to go! They never want to see property taxes reduced because they're too used to seeing them poured into the never-satisfied maw of the downtown beast. Perhaps they'll have a little monument placed at the end of their street... a traffic calming zone.. perhaps a fancy artist-rendered bike rack nearby, or nice little festival to which they can take the kiddies.

Speaking of ball games, even when I go to the Rogers Centre to take in a Jay's game, the notion of taking the transit is laughable to me. Even if I wind up paying $20 for parking, I can save an hour (minimum) in transit time and, after counting up TTC costs, end up paying perhaps a $5 premium for the privilege. Added to that, I can stop off anywhere I want on the way back.

I can get downtown in about 15 minutes from where I live, and it isn't downtown. If I combine hoofing with transit, I can get to the same spot in about 45 minutes to an hour if they're not experiencing "unavoidabe delays." I only pay about an extra 50 cents for that privilege.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Oh good, a further refinement of the macfurian ideal: not only are you anxious for Ford to wreck everything, you want his cronies to make off with the public loot!


You're being disingenuous. I said that _if_ GT's old man ramblings were correct and that the election only shifted the slate of buddies getting the cash, well then better Ford's buddies get it than Miller's. I do not believe it will be the case.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Yep, if you're talking about getting from Sherbourne and Carlton to the Eatons Centre, it's a whole different ballgame, and certainly one which has the downtown set discombobulated. They assume everyone can actually SEE the Eatons Centre from where they live. Transit expansion? Great! It helps them to get from downtown to wherever they need to go! They never want to see property taxes reduced because they're too used to seeing them poured into the never-satisfied maw of the downtown beast. Perhaps they'll have a little monument placed at the end of their street... a traffic calming zone.. perhaps a fancy artist-rendered bike rack nearby, or nice little festival to which they can take the kiddies.
> 
> Speaking of ball games, even when I go to the Rogers Centre to take in a Jay's game, the notion of taking the transit is laughable to me. Even if I wind up paying $20 for parking, I can save an hour (minimum) in transit time and, after counting up TTC costs, end up paying perhaps a $5 premium for the privilege. Added to that, I can stop off anywhere I want on the way back.
> 
> I can get downtown in about 15 minutes from where I live, and it isn't downtown. If I combine hoofing with transit, I can get to the same spot in about 45 minutes to an hour if they're not experiencing "unavoidabe delays." I only pay about an extra 50 cents for that privilege.


the ironic thing about this post is macfury doesn't realize that he's just shown a case study for -improving- downtown transit.

And if anyone has actually driven to the rogers center downtown and looked for and gotten parking and tried to get out of said parking place, and drive through the ensuing mess afterwards, would know 15 minutes is a complete lie.

Right up there with the zoo passes for city council costing us 20 million...
:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> No, YOU don't get it. Because downtown is where transit is needed.


See adagio. Morrrrrrrrre money for downtown! We neeeeeeeeed it! Sounds like they're already having withdrawal symptoms from the cash crack they've been consuming.


----------



## groovetube

looks like macfury is realizing that a city the size of toronto, requires dollars to maintain and improve it.

good boy macfury.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> the ironic thing about this post is macfury doesn't realize that he's just shown a case study for -improving- downtown transit.
> 
> And if anyone has actually driven to the rogers center downtown and looked for and gotten parking and tried to get out of said parking place, and drive through the ensuing mess afterwards, would know 15 minutes is a complete lie.
> 
> Right up there with the zoo passes for city council costing us 20 million...
> :lmao:


Typical downtown myopia. I'm happy with the situation and already GT is moaning that _I _need better transit. The short-sightedness is alarming. The Ford cure is going to be a tough pill for you to swallow GT, but trust me, you will probably get through it.



> looks like macfury is realizing that a city the size of toronto, requires dollars to maintain and improve it.


I will certainly agree to this. The downtown wants that cash and they're not going to let go of it without a lot of yowling and creeching!


----------



## Lawrence

Mel Lastman and Miller solved the transit problem,
They put everything downtown, Within a stones throw of public transit.

Course that didn't solve the DVP and Gardiner congestion problem.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Typical downtown myopia. I'm happy with the situation and already GT is moaning that _I _need better transit. The short-sightedness is alarming. The Ford cure is going to be a tough pill for you to swallow GT, but trust me, you will probably get through it.
> 
> 
> 
> I will certainly agree to this. The downtown wants that cash and they're not going to let go of it without a lot of yowling and creeching!


I don't think anyone really cares that you're celebrating a liar for a mayor suckin your tax dollars into projects to nowhere.

That speaks volumes. It frames rather nicely your constant whining about politicians and their pet projects with our tax dollars.

In any case, let's see in 4 years. That's what I said about Harper, and look at the unaccountable lyin, spend like drunken sailors disaster they become?

oh yeah, rob ford is a one termer. Mark my words. my prediction is e basically tread water for 4 years. (while we -could- be doing something uselful)


----------



## Macfury

Whoa boy. Take it easy. The foam must be dripping from your mouth onto the keyboard. You sound like that old pappy that used to yell at the kids when his gout was acting up. "You mark my words, you rapscallions!"


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> oh yeah, rob ford is a one termer. Mark my words. my prediction is e basically tread water for 4 years.


GT, I don't think it's treading so much as bobbing.


----------



## whatiwant

mrjimmy said:


> GT, I don't think it's treading so much as bobbing.


Fat floats. You couldn't drown that guy if you tried.

Edit. Also theyll have to re-write the phrase "money talks, bull5hit waddles"


----------



## mrjimmy

Ford has cemented himself as a man of gimmicks by having Don Cherry be his 'special guest'. A pompous windbag proclaiming Ford and himself as men of the people versus all those 'artsy elites'. 

Such divisive blather coming from a couple of elite snake oil salesmen. 

Make 'em believe we're one of them Don but don't let 'em get too close.


----------



## Macfury

I love the emphasis on appearance from Ford's detractors. Classy.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I love the emphasis on appearance from Ford's detractors. Classy.


:lmao:

A stinging criticism from Mr. High Road himself!


----------



## Max

Indeed. On the high road, the little people seem so... far away.

It's fitting that Don Cherry be the man to usher in the Ford era. I think it frames up Ford's plans nicely!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Whoa boy. Take it easy. The foam must be dripping from your mouth onto the keyboard. You sound like that old pappy that used to yell at the kids when his gout was acting up. "You mark my words, you rapscallions!"





Macfury said:


> Typical downtown myopia. I'm happy with the situation and already GT is moaning that _I _need better transit. The short-sightedness is alarming. The Ford cure is going to be a tough pill for you to swallow GT, but trust me, you will probably get through it.
> 
> 
> 
> I will certainly agree to this. The downtown wants that cash and they're not going to let go of it without a lot of yowling and creeching!


speakin' of foam...

more stinging criticisms from mr sane himself as well! :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Indeed. On the high road, the little people seem so... far away.
> 
> It's fitting that Don Cherry be the man to usher in the Ford era. I think it frames up Ford's plans nicely!


oh yes. Mr opportunistic mouthpiece. A great Canadian, apparently, tough, we're not really sure why. Fitting indeed.


----------



## i-rui

no one could ever accuse Ford of being "the little man"!


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Indeed. On the high road, the little people seem so... far away.
> 
> It's fitting that Don Cherry be the man to usher in the Ford era. I think it frames up Ford's plans nicely!


Forget all about it, Max. Get into your little car and have a little breakfast. Or take the TTC to a publicly-funded street festival. It'll take your mind of these terrible things.


----------



## Max

On a more serious note, back to mrjimmy's observation that both these gents purport to be of the people and simple folks with the grace of the common touch... plus the added benefit of being millionaires!


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> Forget all about it, Max. Get into your little car and have a little breakfast. Or take the TTC to a publicly-funded street festival. It'll take your mind of these terrible things.


Wow seems like you're halfway to a fordstyle rage right now. Try not to hit any women around you...


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> On a more serious note, back to mrjimmy's observation that both these gents purport to be of the people and simple folks with the grace of the common touch... plus the added benefit of being millionaires!


Few who get to this level of politics are "of the people" or they wouldn't be where they are. But some of them get the job done.


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> Wow seems like you're halfway to a fordstyle rage right now. Try not to hit any women around you...


I don't use smileys when I rag Max. He gets it.


----------



## Max

Max said:


> On a more serious note, back to mrjimmy's observation that both these gents purport to be of the people and simple folks with the grace of the common touch... plus the added benefit of being millionaires!


MF: in order to take your patronizing advice, it would require me to take you seriously. I imagine you could at least comprehend for yourself what a quandary that would put me in.

No, better to write your last post off as yet another belated bleat from the north end.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> MF: in order to take your patronizing advice, it would require me to take you seriously. I imagine you could at least comprehend for yourself what a quandary that would put me in.
> 
> No, better to write your last post off as yet another belated bleat from the north end.


Quoting yourself, Max? Bad sign...


----------



## Max

That the best you can do?

[pinches nostrils, leaves room]


----------



## Macfury

It appears to me that what we're seeing here, once again, is the sour grapes from residents of a downtown core who resent that it will be treated as just one more neighbourhood in the city. Your needs be damned folks, learn to stand in line.


----------



## Max

The important thing to stress are the first four words of your post.... issued, I note in passing, by a veteran sour grapist who in turn airs his ire over _others_ who dare to gripe of grapes sour.

The irony is fine.


----------



## Macfury

I remained relatively silent over seven years of Miller time. 



Max said:


> The important thing to stress are the first four words of your post.... issued, I note in passing, by a veteran sour grapist who in turn airs his ire over _others_ who dare to gripe of grapes sour.
> 
> The irony is fine.


----------



## groovetube

indeed it is.

But I think it's lost on him.


----------



## Lawrence

Damn, Another Ford cartoon site missing in action,
I can't seem to connect to Artizans dot com anymore.

This is the Google cache, But the cartoons are blank

They were such good cartoons too, Damnit!!!

I hadn't finished collecting them all yet, I suppose it could be gridlocked,
Something Ford is doing to the Internet and Toronto streets, Who'd have thunk it?

Original link:
https://zone.artizans.com/cartoon/f/Ford.html

Edit:
Artizans is back up again!!!


----------



## Max

Dolawren, it looks like Ford's fiendish plan has already begun. You've gotta figure MF is rubbing his hands together in glee.


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> I remained relatively silent over seven years of Miller time.


"Relatively" is a relative term. How coy of you now to downplay your spirited contributions during the Miller era! Your derisive snipes and deadpan asides were certainly there in abundance.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> "Relatively" is a relative term. How coy of you now to downplay your spirited contributions during the Miller era! Your derisive snipes and deadpan asides were certainly there in abundance.


I did not scold him to the degree he deserved. Good union jobs aside.


----------



## Lawrence

Still Googling for more cartoons...
Found this in the interim:

*Fire Rob Ford*

Scroll down on the above website to see more about our fearless leader.


----------



## Lawrence

I had hoped to get the "Goldfinger" cartoon of Mayor Rob Ford.

The Rob Ford - Goldfinger connection

Oh well

YouTube - YOU EXPECT ME TO TALK?


----------



## kps

zzzzzzzzzzz, more chicken little "the sky is falling" crap.

Ford is what he is and he can't do a hell of a lot without kissing up to the province, the feds and his own council. That kissing up will come with concessions and compromises.

The result will be Groove's "treading water" term , some good or total f&^% up.

I'll wait and see.


----------



## groovetube

yeah.

I suspect some monkeys all hootin and clapping because city staffers have to water their own plants. And buy their own staples.

small things, amuse...

bleh.


----------



## Lawrence

I guess since it's a weekend, This thread isn't going to be that active,
I'm sure that during next week, When Ford is at work, Doing his normal silly things,
We'll get some more juicy bits to chew on.


----------



## Max

Count on it!


----------



## Lawrence

The Mayor was helping to give away turkeys at Honest Ed's yesterday,
He was wearing an apron with words saying "Honest Rob" on it.


----------



## Macfury

dolawren said:


> The Mayor was helping to give away turkeys at Honest Ed's yesterday,
> He was wearing an apron with words saying "Honest Rob" on it.


It was hand-painted by the same guy who hand paints all of the Ed's sales banners.


----------



## i-rui

dolawren said:


> The Mayor was helping to give away turkeys at Honest Ed's yesterday,
> He was wearing an apron with words saying "Honest Rob" on it.


he should give it back to whomever he stole it from.


----------



## John Clay

i-rui said:


> he should give it back to whomever he stole it from.


:lmao: Yep...


He's such a monkey in a man suit.


----------



## Lawrence

Wait until he gets a bigger office.

(The motherload for cartoons)

(Cartoon by: THEO MOUDAKIS/TORONTO STAR, NOVEMBER 09, 2010)


----------



## whatiwant

I don't doubt that the man will push some of his agenda through. I've seen enough kids whining and wailing loudly enough in the line-up of a grocery store or two and their parents usually do give in and let them have a candy bar. That's how some people get things done.

If there was EVER a whiner in Toronto politics it's this guy.


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> If there was EVER a whiner in Toronto politics it's this guy.


Really? looks more like he's barking orders. Miller on the other hand, wheedled and begged through seven years.


----------



## groovetube

jawknee said:


> I don't doubt that the man will push some of his agenda through. I've seen enough kids whining and wailing loudly enough in the line-up of a grocery store or two and their parents usually do give in and let them have a candy bar. That's how some people get things done.
> 
> If there was EVER a whiner in Toronto politics it's this guy.


yep, did you see the video of him about the fat f*? That whiney voice.

gah.

His -agenda- amounts to little more than grandstanding. That sort of thing appeals to a number of people until they figure out it's hot air.

"honest rob". Unfortunately, he hasn't been very honest about a number of things. But, like the federal conservatives, right wingers tend to not be honest like their government about the lies.

They're ok with that as long as they're not liberal.


----------



## Macfury

I LOVE it when a plan comes together!


----------



## groovetube

Unfortunately, I don't think there -is- a plan. Other than, apparently... there's gravy to be stopped. 

You've been had.


----------



## kps

Speaking of gravy...

From Dave's cartoon link...this is priceless and very close to the truth and a possible future. LOL!


----------



## whatiwant

The last time I stopped a gravy train it was cos I wanted seconds... Just sayin'... 
Wait, that was a gravy boat. Now I'm confused!


----------



## Sonal

YouTube - DEE DEE SHARP - GRAVY




+
YouTube - DEE DEE SHARP - GRAVY" title="View this video at YouTube in a new window or tab" target="_blank">YouTube Video






YouTube - DEE DEE SHARP - GRAVY">
YouTube - DEE DEE SHARP - GRAVY" />

ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## SINC

Sonal said:


> YouTube - DEE DEE SHARP - GRAVY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


There, I fixed it for you Sonal. If you compare your post in 'edit' mode to this post in 'quote' mode, you can see the difference in the code so you can post videos in future.


----------



## Lawrence

jawknee said:


> The last time I stopped a gravy train it was cos I wanted seconds... Just sayin'...
> Wait, that was a gravy boat. Now I'm confused!


You are on the right track...

YouTube - RMR: Tony Clement Gravy Boat

(I still can't seem to post YouTube video's on ehMac, We need a new faq)


----------



## whatiwant

dolawren said:


> You are on the right track...
> 
> YouTube - RMR: Tony Clement Gravy Boat
> 
> (I still can't seem to post YouTube video's on ehMac, We need a new faq)


Following the link (the old way) still works. Hehe. 



----------



## SINC

dolawren said:


> (I still can't seem to post YouTube video's on ehMac, We need a new faq)


Dave, it is so simple. Copy and past the YouTube url using the YouTube buttons provided. Then delete the lead part of the url beginning with http and ending with the '=' sign. Just click on "quote" in this post and see how I changed your quote below. It's dead easy.



dolawren said:


> You are on the right track...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I still can't seem to post YouTube video's on ehMac, We need a new faq)


----------



## Lawrence

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Got it...Thanks


----------



## Lawrence

Say goodbye to "Transit City" and Hello to "Subway City"

Ford meets McGuinty to implement 'subway plan'

Now all we need is a 24 hour subway


----------



## Lawrence

Don Cherry blasts 'left-wing pinkos' at mayor's inauguration

Lol...This just can't get any better.

Here's a snippet:



> In his introduction of the new mayor, CBC hockey commentator Don Cherry made explosive comments about the media and cyclists.
> 
> "I'm wearing pinko for all the pinkos out there that ride bicycles and everything," he said.
> 
> "I'm been being ripped to shreds by the left-wing pinko newspapers out there. It's unbelievable. One guy called me a jerk in a pink suit, so I thought I'd wear that for him too… These left-wing pinkos. They scrape the bottom of the barrel.
> 
> "(Rob Ford is) going to be the greatest mayor this city has ever seen, as far as I'm concerned," he added later on in the speech. "Put that in your pipe, you left-wing kooks."


Edit:
Here's the link for the rest of the story.

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

I loved the description of the shocked looks on councillors' faces! If David Miller were in a grave he'd be rolling in it now. After that speech, Ford can simply claim he's at least less extreme than Cherry!


----------



## groovetube

"I'm wearing pinko for all the pinkos out there that ride bicycles and everything"

awesome.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> "I'm wearing pinko for all the pinkos out there that ride bicycles and everything"
> 
> awesome.


It is awesome. It's so awesome that it feels like a setup. Who could imagine Cherry would be so idiotic. Love it!


----------



## Macfury

Perhaps it's a publicity stunt for the lefties, so that they'll be glad they've got a reasonable mayor like Ford in charge, instead of Grapes!


----------



## Ottawaman

Don Cherry just cinched his senate seat from Harper


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Perhaps it's a publicity stunt for the lefties, so that they'll be glad they've got a reasonable mayor like Ford in charge, instead of Grapes!


Cherry and Ford are inexorably linked by that delicious sound bite. One of many I'm sure but what an opener! 

Thank you Grapes!


----------



## Ottawaman

Rob Ford Has Sort Of A Financial Plan, Kinda


----------



## Dr.G.

Might someone explain what Transit City is all about in TO or the GTA? Merci.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Might someone explain what Transit City is all about in TO or the GTA? Merci.


Transit City was a plan to build a huge network of transit lines, LRT and subways across the city by 2050. The initial phase (already funded) would have been the construction of an LRT across part of mid-town Toronto, but that is being shelved in favour of additional subway stations.


----------



## i-rui

I love grapes, but he really is getting senile with age.

just more & more "oh gandpa" moments.



Macfury said:


> Transit City was a plan to build a huge network of transit lines, LRT and subways across the city by 2050. The initial phase (already funded *by the provincial government*) would have been the construction of an LRT across part of mid-town Toronto, but that is being shelved in favour of additional subway stations *in the east end not solving the midtown over-congestion, and currently has NO additional funding*.


the bold edits are mine.


----------



## Macfury

And none of the above additions have anything to do with Transit City, which is dead.


----------



## i-rui

not dead yet.

and the edits were added to give Dr.G the proper context of the situation and the controversy.


----------



## kps

Grapes is good entertainment value in sports...but he should stay out of politics. LOL

I don't know what value (if any) the Ford administration hoped to gain from this, but in my mind it was a fail.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> not dead yet.
> 
> and the edits were added to give Dr.G the proper context of the situation and the controversy.


Don't edit my stuff rui. Write your own


----------



## Ottawaman

kps said:


> Grapes is good entertainment value in sports...but he should stay out of politics. LOL
> 
> I don't know what value (if any) the Ford administration hoped to gain from this, but in my mind it was a fail.



You pinko!


----------



## whatiwant

Cherry should've been committed to a home long ago. It's kind've sad watching him get more and more senile in real time.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> the bold edits are mine.


There is no such thing as an "edited" quote.

To alter a quote is pure ignorance of the definition of the word "quote".

One quotes, then comments upon said quote.

Altering any man's quote in any way is unforgivable.

It also demonstrates no knowledge of the process "to edit".


----------



## i-rui

you should call the cops or something.


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> you should call the cops or something.


Better you boned up on what is right and what is wrong.


----------



## Lawrence

SINC said:


> There is no such thing as an "edited" quote.
> 
> To alter a quote is pure ignorance of the definition of the word "quote".
> 
> One quotes, then comments upon said quote.
> 
> Altering any man's quote in any way is unforgivable.
> 
> It also demonstrates no knowledge of the process "to edit".


My thoughts exactly.

I left the quotes as they were when I quoted Don Cherry,
The bad grammar just made it funnier.


----------



## i-rui

If anyone truly thought that Mac Fury wrote those terrible things (despite me clarifying the changes were my own) i apologize from the bottom of my heart. i now know how truly unforgivable such a thing is.


----------



## Ottawaman

Since this is the internet and not a journal I think that the *FTFY* rule applies.  You were upfront about the edit.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Transit City was a plan to build a huge network of transit lines, LRT and subways across the city by 2050. The initial phase (already funded) would have been the construction of an LRT across part of mid-town Toronto, but that is being shelved in favour of additional subway stations.


Merci, Macfury.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> not dead yet.
> 
> and the edits were added to give Dr.G the proper context of the situation and the controversy.


Thanks for this additional info, i-rui, but I am not sure I follow the implications of the bold text.

As one who was almost born on a New York City subway, way back when, I like subways.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ottawaman said:


> You pinko!


You should see Sinc's pink picture ........... it puts DC to shame.


----------



## SINC

Ottawaman said:


> Since this is the internet and not a journal I think that the *FTFY* rule applies.  You were upfront about the edit.


Hmm, another who has no concept of using the "QUOTE" function.

It's pretty simple guys. If you want to alter a quote, don't put it in the "QUOTE" special designation commonly used on the forum.

Repeat the altered 'quote' as your own statement and NOT a "quote". 

What's so difficult to understand about that?

Internet or not, there are certain things that are not forgivable.


----------



## Lawrence

Dr.G. said:


> Merci, Macfury.


Also to note...Cyclists hate streetcars, Especially their tracks when they are wet,
Which makes it hard to understand why the new Mayor hates cyclists.

I mean, They both don't want more streetcars and tracks,
You'd think they'd get along fine, Maybe it's because Miller loved cyclists.

Anything Miller liked seems to be hated by our newest Mayor.

I just hope he doesn't take away the H.O.V. lanes.


----------



## Dr.G.

dolawren said:


> Also to note...Cyclists hate streetcars, Especially their tracks when they are wet,
> Which makes it hard to understand why the new Mayor hates cyclists.
> 
> I mean, They both don't want more streetcars and tracks,
> You'd think they'd get along fine, Maybe it's because Miller loved cyclists.
> 
> Anything Miller liked seems to be hated by our newest Mayor.


Dave, I have never taken my bike over street car tracks, but in Waycross, Georgia, I did have to take my bike over train tracks that were imbedded in the street. Hated them with a passion.

"I just hope he doesn't take away the H.O.V. lanes." What is a HOV lane?


----------



## Ottawaman

I have a full concept. Take a chill pill.


----------



## SINC

Ottawaman said:


> I have a full concept. Take a chill pill.


One should appreciate that there is a right way and a wrong way to use the quote function.

One is valid and the other puts words in another man's mouth. I'll chill just for you this time, but it would be nice if others could simply be a man and admit a mistake and move on.


----------



## Max

Stand to reason. Miller was a huge, stinking, pinko, bike-loving freak. Any right-thinking person could figure that out.

________________________________________________________________

I'm still trying to figure out why Cherry wore pink to denounce all those loathed pinkos. I guess it really just amounted to another egotastic photo-op for the self-proclaimed pit bull.


----------



## kps

Settle down ...all of you. 

As someone who has now been labelled a "piko", I want to know where I can get a jacket like Cherry's?

Back to Rob Ford, "The Subway Builder"...someone tell me, how do I get on THAT "gravy train"...


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> As someone who has now been labelled a "piko"


One who likes pike?


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> One who likes pike?


LOL...please add and insert the nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

P.S. I prefer pickerel.


----------



## Max

Kps, just go to any tailor and ask for the "loud and tasteless special." They ought to be able to accommodate you. Make sure you bring a pair of shades with you so you don't inadvertently sear your own retinas when you go to try it on. You're welcome.

Interesting side note - in his upcoming bid to prevent the TTC from ever striking again, the speculation is that will result in higher wage settlements when each and every round of negotiations come up. Funny how that stuff works.


----------



## Ottawaman

kps said:


> Settle down ...all of you.
> 
> As someone who has now been labelled a "piko", I want to know where I can get a jacket like Cherry's?
> 
> Back to Rob Ford, "The Subway Builder"...someone tell me, how do I get on THAT "gravy train"...


It could be worse, you may have been branded a plinko lover.


----------



## kps

Now that he spent the day kissing Daltons behind...there'll be plenty of money for higher wages at the TTC...not to mention that new multimillion dollar TTC headquarters...

and thanks for the tip on the retinas. lol


----------



## kps

Ottawaman said:


> It could be worse, you may have been branded a plinko lover.


or a Sarah Palinko lover.


----------



## Max

i don't think he spent the day kissing Dalton's anything. More like Dalton saw the writing on the wall and was trying to accommodate the new realpolitik that's prevailing. Rob Ford is packing heat and McGuinty's low in the polls. He sounds pretty conciliatory to Ford, actually. Even city council is wary of tackling Ford head-on. The real test for Ford will ultimately be one of sheer endurance.


----------



## kps

Well let's hope he can pull at least one or two rabbits out of a hat. I favour the subway plan myself but I'm leery if this guy can pull it off without putting the city into a huge financial hole without a huge influx of capital from the province and the feds.


----------



## i-rui

Dr.G. said:


> Thanks for this additional info, i-rui, but I am not sure I follow the implications of the bold text.
> 
> As one who was almost born on a New York City subway, way back when, I like subways.


I like subways too. Pretty much everyone does. The problem is the cost in making new subway lines. Everyone wants them, but no one wants to PAY for them. Least of all the people who elected Ford on his promise to cut costs.

The Transit City plan had funding from the Provincial & federal Government - meaning that Toronto wouldn't have to pay for the vast majority of it. It took a lot of political maneuvering to make that happen as the cost was going to be around 8 billion for the planned first phase. Over a hundred million has already been spent. Over one billion has already been promised via contracts that the city signed (and may be on the hook for since i doubt the provincial/federal funding covered cancellation costs).

So Ford is now basically trying to axe 8 billion+ of funding for a plan that will cost Toronto (at least) 3.2 billion to extend a subway line in the east end of the city (which isn't where the pressing need for added transit infrastructure is needed).

Of course the irony of this buffoon who ran on a platform of "fiscal responsibility" spending 3.2 billion dollars (plus maybe an additional billion in contracts that can't be broken) and *LOSING 8 Billion in Funding* from the Province/Ottawa *BEFORE*his first day in office is lost on the people who elected him because he's also promised to axe a $60 vehicle registration cost (which will also cost the city a couple of million in revenue) which those individuals will now be able to pocket.

It's staggering how short sighted people are. Of course it would be great if we had new subway lines, but it isn't going to happen because the cost is too prohibitive and the city is in debt. I also *HATE* driving behind streetcars (it sucks), but i also understand that if you live in a city you have to make *compromises*. the more people who take transit the less cars will be on the road. 

Replacing a *flawed* solution with *no* solution is *not* a solution.


----------



## Lawrence

kps said:


> Now that he spent the day kissing Daltons behind...there'll be plenty of money for higher wages at the TTC...not to mention that new multimillion dollar TTC headquarters...
> 
> and thanks for the tip on the retinas. lol


You mean...
They are going to sell the TTC Davisville headquarters to Menkes Condo developers?

I could see that happening.


----------



## kps

dolawren said:


> You mean...
> They are going to sell the TTC Davisville headquarters to Menkes Condo developers?
> 
> I could see that happening.


All I know is that the TTC is building a new HQ...what they're planning to do with the old one I haven't a clue.


----------



## Lawrence

kps said:


> All I know is that the TTC is building a new HQ...what they're planning to do with the old one I haven't a clue.


It might be difficult to sell anyways,
It doesn't have any parking.


----------



## Lawrence

i-rui said:


> {begin snip]-/-/-/-/-[end snip]
> It's staggering how short sighted people are. Of course it would be great if we had new subway lines, but it isn't going to happen because the cost is too prohibitive and the city is in debt. I also *HATE* driving behind streetcars (it sucks), but i also understand that if you live in a city you have to make *compromises*. the more people who take transit the less cars will be on the road.
> 
> Replacing a *flawed* solution with *no* solution is *not* a solution.


Oh well, Guess we'll be getting out our bicycles for the next 4 years then,
I smell gridlock coming in the next few years, Time to ride the sidewalks.


----------



## Max

I think that riding bikes on the city streets will be fine. Just remember to bring your gun and everything will work out!


----------



## Macfury

dolawren said:


> It might be difficult to sell anyways,
> It doesn't have any parking.


Actually, it does have generous parking and much of the executive uses the lot, despite having their office built directly over Davisville Station.


----------



## Max

You can't seriously expect the TTC executives to act like the little people whose destiny they fiendishly control.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> So Ford is now basically trying to axe 8 billion+ of funding for a plan that will cost Toronto (at least) 3.2 billion to extend a subway line in the east end of the city (which isn't where the pressing need for added transit infrastructure is needed).


Why accept 8 billion dollars in funding--most of it supplied ot the provincial government by Toronto taxpayers, for the wrong plan? Just because it's money?

Also, consider the legacy cost of operating those LRTs. Toronto is on the hook for the operating expenses forever, once the line is operating. Better to use buses in those areas.


----------



## groovetube

buses aren't anywhere close to an LRT. But if you lived downtown, and took both, you'd know that.

Clearly, Ford is on track to waste an incredible amount of money on something stupid.

I love subways. If we could have the one that ran down the dvp, across the bottom of the city and back up to pearson, that'd be saaaahhhweet. Really.

But, how much would that cost? Take a guess?

Ah but it's more important to go to the freaking scarborough town center.

stupendous waste of tax payers money.


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> I like subways too. Pretty much everyone does. The problem is the cost in making new subway lines. Everyone wants them, but no one wants to PAY for them. Least of all the people who elected Ford on his promise to cut costs.
> 
> The Transit City plan had funding from the Provincial & federal Government - meaning that Toronto wouldn't have to pay for the vast majority of it. It took a lot of political maneuvering to make that happen as the cost was going to be around 8 billion for the planned first phase. Over a hundred million has already been spent. Over one billion has already been promised via contracts that the city signed (and may be on the hook for since i doubt the provincial/federal funding covered cancellation costs).
> 
> So Ford is now basically trying to axe 8 billion+ of funding for a plan that will cost Toronto (at least) 3.2 billion to extend a subway line in the east end of the city (which isn't where the pressing need for added transit infrastructure is needed).
> 
> Of course the irony of this buffoon who ran on a platform of "fiscal responsibility" spending 3.2 billion dollars (plus maybe an additional billion in contracts that can't be broken) and *LOSING 8 Billion in Funding* from the Province/Ottawa *BEFORE*his first day in office is lost on the people who elected him because he's also promised to axe a $60 vehicle registration cost (which will also cost the city a couple of million in revenue) which those individuals will now be able to pocket.
> 
> It's staggering how short sighted people are. Of course it would be great if we had new subway lines, but it isn't going to happen because the cost is too prohibitive and the city is in debt. I also *HATE* driving behind streetcars (it sucks), but i also understand that if you live in a city you have to make *compromises*. the more people who take transit the less cars will be on the road.
> 
> Replacing a *flawed* solution with *no* solution is *not* a solution.


Do you folks have an income tax as they do in New York City? All he has to do is to raise taxes on everyone's income, raise property taxes, tax essential services, tax renters and developers, and cut services. Why do you need weekly garbage pickups? Monthly will do. So, higher taxes, less services and the subway will pay for itself. Simple math, my friend. Simple math. 

For Christmas I shall send you to the Sarah Palin School of Higher Economics and Geograrphy. From their campus, you shall learn how to cut taxes, cut services and see Russia all in your first course. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Max

GT: what's wrong with the Scarborough Town Centre? Do you have any idea how many people live in the northern half of the COTU?

Geez man.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Why accept 8 billion dollars in funding--most of it supplied ot the provincial government by Toronto taxpayers, for the wrong plan? Just because it's money?
> 
> Also, consider the legacy cost of operating those LRTs. Toronto is on the hook for the operating expenses forever, once the line is operating. Better to use buses in those areas.


Why? Because something has to be done about the transit problem. Even the LRT as a transitional solution until these fabled new subway lines (that may never come) is a better solution than none at all.

Buses have a much higher operating cost than LRTs, and are worse for the environment, so even as a temp solution they don't work. Plus the LRT trains can be moved to other lines and even run underground in less congested areas. It's not like they'll go to waste if all the lines go underground.

The sad thing is years ago the Harris government filled in (at the cost of millions of dollars) subway lines that were partially built (costing more millions of dollars) and set the city's public transit system back decades.

Now years later ,another conservative is going to set the city's public transportation back another couple of decades. Round and round we go.


----------



## Ottawaman

Sell the roads, subways and transit system to private interests and be done with it. Right?


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> GT: what's wrong with the Scarborough Town Centre? Do you have any idea how many people live in the northern half of the COTU?
> 
> Geez man.


I've compared how packed the subways are sheppard and the bloor line.

No comparison.


----------



## Max

i-rui said:


> The sad thing is years ago the Harris government filled in (at the cost of millions of dollars) subway lines that were partially built (costing more millions of dollars) and set the city's public transit system back decades.


What lines were these? First time I'm hearing of it.


----------



## i-rui

Eglinton line. The Harris Government also gutted a plan to integrate the TTC & Go.


----------



## Max

Of course. I forgot it had ever happened. Like a nasty memory you bury.

They dug a hole. They filled it in. Might as well have filled it in with money.

Harris can't quite be blamed for the lack of merger between GO and the TTC... both orgs have fiefdom issues and would rather run things their own way. Not that this isn't a huge part of the problem, of course.


----------



## Macfury

I'm still angry that they dug a ditch and failed to continue the Allen Expressway downtown. Ohhh the wasted money--and it was already funded too!


----------



## Max

Not me. Glad they spared the Annex.

Watch that anger, MF - it'll eat you alive.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Not me. Glad they spared the Annex.
> 
> Watch that anger, MF - it'll eat you alive.


Think of it Max, another Don Valley Expressway--straight to Chinatown!!! Something worthy of a high-speed chase involving Pappy Doyle!


----------



## Max

I can see your point. The film community could get a lot of use out of it. Cronenberg could do _Crash II_ and shoot a lot of spectacular wipe-outs.

OK. I'm good with it. I don't live in the Annex anyway and I don't see why anyone else should.


----------



## kps

How about all those homes and other real estate they expropriated for the Spadina...does the city still own it or did they liquidate it...probably at a huge loss to those connected?

and Ford may revisit this...oh the horror, the horror.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> How about all those homes and other real estate they expropriated for the Spadina...does the city still own it or did they liquidate it...probably at a huge loss to those connected?
> 
> and Ford may revisit this...oh the horror, the horror.


They rented out the houses for years, then sold them on the open market a few years back.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> They rented out the houses for years, then sold them on the open market a few years back.


In that case, that puts an end to that, then.


----------



## Max

Kps, do you think that Ford will actually revisit the Spadina Expressway? I thought that issue was dead, dead, dead.

However, since he's willing to throw away tens of millions in cancelled contracts though, it's apparent he can speak out of both sides of his mouth. Perhaps he'll foist some kind of home-grown Big Dig on us and kick-start _subterranean expressways everywhere!_


----------



## kps

Max said:


> Kps, do you think that Ford will actually revisit the Spadina Expressway? I thought that issue was dead, dead, dead.
> 
> However, since he's willing to throw away tens of millions in cancelled contracts though, it's apparent he can speak out of both sides of his mouth. Perhaps he'll foist some kind of home-grown Big Dig on us and kick-start _subterranean expressways everywhere!_


No, not really, I was just stirring the pot a little, but my interest in what happened to the properties was legit. Wasn't sure whether the city still owned them or not.


----------



## Max

Ahh yes, stirring the old proverbial pot. Always good for a larf. Carry on then!


----------



## kps

Well as you very well know, I'm in the pro-burbial pot in Mississauga, but now that my saviour Ford is in getting rid of the car tax and possibly the land transfer tax...watch out...I may move back to COTU.


----------



## Max

Say it ain't so! Why come back to this festering cesspool? Your saviour Ford hates it!


----------



## kps

It'll be tough...at the current reale state prices I can't afford a TTC bus shelter (union costs and all), but perhaps in Ford's old riding of Rexdale there might be relief...


----------



## Lawrence

> Cherry's 'pinko' slur appears on T-shirts, buttons
> 
> Groups cash in on hockey commentator's addresses to Toronto council



Read more: CBC News - Toronto - Cherry's 'pinko' slur appears on T-shirts, buttons


:lmao: :love2:


----------



## Macfury

dolawren said:


> Toronto - Cherry's 'pinko' slur appears on T-shirts, buttons


That's great! Better they all identify themselves while enriching some right wing entrepreneur!


----------



## groovetube

It's funny how the right wing camp thinks there aren't any entrepreneurial left wing kooks.


----------



## Macfury

If they're entrepreneurial they're usually not kooks, just left wing.


----------



## groovetube

you don't get out much do ya.


----------



## Max

LOL

Let's just say he's steeped in theory.


----------



## groovetube

always the diplomat max.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> LOL
> 
> Let's just say he's steeped in theory.


You'd be worried if I faltered.


----------



## Max

i would! Consistency being a virtue and all.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> That's great! Better they all identify themselves while enriching some right wing entrepreneur!


I think that people who play centre make more money,
They just use the left and right wingers to help them win the game.


----------



## MacDoc

Classic right wing claptrap......talk about austerity....spend like Croesus...

Harper must be proud of his protege- let's invent a non-existent crime problem and then throw money at it....



> Mayor Rob Ford wants to hire 100 more police officers as soon as he finds the cash, but the Toronto Police Service doesn’t want them. With crime down about 30 per cent in Toronto since 2005, do you think we need more police officers?


familiar and tiresome refrain...



> '*Wishfulness,' 'yesmanship' and the Harper Conservatives *| rabble.ca
> 26 Aug 2010 ... The Harper Conservatives cannot accept that crime is going down. ... Building more prisons will not make future offenders less likely to ...





> *Harper Government Borrowing, Increasing Taxes, to Build Prisons .*..
> 9 Mar 2010 ... Critics have questioned the need for a prison-building boom in times of fiscal restraint and declining crime rates, particularly when they ...


and how big is Harpo's deficit??
Ford trundling right along with the party line......


----------



## monokitty

Well... Mr. Ford has made good on one promise I won't complain about:

Toronto's vehicle registration tax is dead - thestar.com.

RIP Vehicle Registration Tax. (Good riddance.)


----------



## groovetube

awesome. So I save 60 bucks and for this we have a doofus for a mayor.


----------



## adagio

Great news! Imagine, politicians doing what the electorate voted for.


----------



## groovetube

holy reduced expectations batman.


----------



## i-rui

I would agree that it was a bit of a cash grab tax (albeit Toronto needed it because it's broke), so i'm not sad to see it get the axe.

on the other hand anyone who voted for him solely based on a $60 payoff is a simpleton.


----------



## whatiwant

i-rui said:


> I would agree that it was a bit of a cash grab tax (albeit Toronto needed it because it's broke), so i'm not sad to see it get the axe.
> 
> on the other hand anyone who voted for him solely based on a $60 payoff is a simpleton.


Shhh, you might wake up a certain someone... :heybaby:


----------



## Adrian.

It's just a political move. They will recoup that money somewhere else.


----------



## kps

Adrian. said:


> It's just a political move. They will recoup that money somewhere else.


Well I hope they recoup more than that...perhaps they can start by getting rid of some of the 10,000 *additional* city employees Miller hired.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> I would agree that it was a bit of a cash grab tax (albeit Toronto needed it because it's broke), so i'm not sad to see it get the axe.
> 
> on the other hand anyone who voted for him solely based on a $60 payoff is a *simpleton*.


ouch!


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

Ah, such an entertaining thread this is. Thanks to the Ford Expedition I expect much humorous reading in years to come. Thank you Toronto.

A take on Don Cherry and his pro-Ford rant: Don Cherry is nothing but a phoney



> I thought I had said all I ever wanted to say about Don Cherry. But lately, the man has morphed into Glenn Beck in sequins, out to prove that he who shouts loudest is always right. It's always the same thing: the rage, the name-calling, the complete absence of reason.


----------



## Lawrence

kps said:


> Well I hope they recoup more than that...perhaps they can start by getting rid of some of the 10,000 *additional* city employees Miller hired.


They are going to widen the roads, Goodbye bicycle lanes, The war on the car is over.


----------



## Max

But the war on the city has just begun!


----------



## Lawrence

Max said:


> But the war on the city has just begun!


I suppose we could speculate on what he might do to increase the coffers,
Let's see, Mel Lastman brought everything downtown and now the Gardiner is crumbling

How can Ford pay to fix it?


----------



## groovetube

larry o'brien, here we come.


----------



## Max

I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. At the moment Ford is having a jolly good time. Be a shame to spoil it with nagging questions about money and where it might come from.

I look forward to the high grey drudgery of January and February, once the gloss has worn off of Hizzoner and his autocratic style.


----------



## kps

dolawren said:


> They are going to widen the roads, Goodbye bicycle lanes, The war on the car is over.


Don't know what that has to do with those 10,000 additional employees unless they were the ones painting those funky bikes all over the pavement.

Anyway, forget the frigging bicycle lanes...get rid of all the speed bumps (you as a scooter rider should appreciate that), re-programme the traffic computers so the lights are timed to move traffic and not hinder it, and get rid of the streetcars on King, College/Carlton, Bathurst, Roncesvalles and perhaps Broadview. Continue to keep them on Queen, Dundas, Spadina and since it cost so much money on St. Clair. Do not cancel the new streetcar orders, just cut it back in number ordered. That should prevent any contractual lawsuits or penalties.

Then start digging for the T.O Tube expansion...

That would be a nice start.


----------



## whatiwant

Coming soon: corporate sponsorship "Toronto land of the happymeals (TM)"


----------



## Lawrence

kps said:


> Don't know what that has to do with those 10,000 additional employees unless they were the ones painting those funky bikes all over the pavement.
> 
> Anyway, forget the frigging bicycle lanes...get rid of all the speed bumps (you as a scooter rider should appreciate that), re-programme the traffic computers so the lights are timed to move traffic and not hinder it, and get rid of the streetcars on King, College/Carlton, Bathurst, Roncesvalles and perhaps Broadview. Continue to keep them on Queen, Dundas, Spadina and since it cost so much money on St. Clair. Do not cancel the new streetcar orders, just cut it back in number ordered. That should prevent any contractual lawsuits or penalties.
> 
> Then start digging for the T.O Tube expansion...
> 
> That would be a nice start.


Actually I don't mind the speed bumps.
If I drive at exactly 32 km/hr then I don't even need to apply my brakes.

As for the streetcar tracks, I don't care, I commute uptown instead of downtown,
So I never see any streetcar tracks on my commute.

The traffic light signals are a challenge though,
I hate it when my motorbike can't trigger them to change at an intersection,
Then I have to make a U Turn in order to get around a red light. (Very annoying)


----------



## Max

Speed bumps don't bug me either. Generally if you're not speeding you can go right over them without braking.

But I don't know how effective they are either. I see plenty of people just zooming over them at top speed. Like a skier hitting a mogul. _Wheee_! Never a cop around when ya needs 'em.

Streetcar tracks can be tricky. Sometimes I can feel the car wheels being 'grabbed' by the tracks, especially in heavy rain or slick winter conditions. Again, I'll get by... drive at a sane speed and you're good. Replacing streetcars with busses is not going to make it any easier to haul out dead busses in the middle of rush hour, when gridlock rules.


----------



## groovetube

actually keep the speed bumps to stop the jackarses from racing through residential streets. Our street is the only one in this area without the 'speed calming' things, and we have trucks and cabbies flying through here all the time. It's only a matter of time before a child gets hit. (knock on wood)


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Speed bumps don't bug me either. Generally if you're not speeding you can go right over them without braking.
> 
> But I don't know how effective they are either. I see plenty of people just zooming over them at top speed. Like a skier hitting a mogul. _Wheee_! Never a cop around when ya needs 'em.
> 
> Streetcar tracks can be tricky. Sometimes I can feel the car wheels being 'grabbed' by the tracks, especially in heavy rain or slick winter conditions. Again, I'll get by... drive at a sane speed and you're good. Replacing streetcars with busses is not going to make it any easier to haul out dead busses in the middle of rush hour, when gridlock rules.


yeah the replace streetcars with buses is moronic. More, and more efficient transit gets more cars off the roads, less gridlock.

But it takes someone smart with a good vision to pull this off. spending billions on a subway to the scarborough town center is not this vision...


----------



## kps

I wouldn't say it's moronic. Some streetcar routes are obsolete...like Roncesvalles, Broadview, College/Carlton/Main for example. There are green buses available and they can go around accidents and obstructions --streetcars can't and god forbid there's road construction or something.

Problem with Toronto's transportation is that it's been totally ignored for the last 30years or more and is so far behind in modernizing the infrastructure that it'll take Boston's Big Dig equivalent to fix. Probably not in my lifetime and perhaps never.


----------



## whatiwant

kps said:


> I wouldn't say it's moronic. Some streetcar routes are obsolete...like Roncesvalles, Broadview, College/Carlton/Main for example. There are green buses available and they can go around accidents and obstructions --streetcars can't and god forbid there's road construction or something.
> 
> Problem with Toronto's transportation is that it's been totally ignored for the last 30years or more and is so far behind in modernizing the infrastructure that it'll take Boston's Big Dig equivalent to fix. Probably not in my lifetime and perhaps never.


Agreed. 

30 or so years ago when the car went from luxury item to entitlement?


----------



## Max

groovetube said:


> actually keep the speed bumps to stop the jackarses from racing through residential streets. Our street is the only one in this area without the 'speed calming' things, and we have trucks and cabbies flying through here all the time. It's only a matter of time before a child gets hit. (knock on wood)


It's a great combination of circumstances - drivers are perpetually in a hurry to get somewhere so they leave the clogged arterials, opting instead to bomb down residentials en route to another arterial. I see it on my own street all the time. They consider themselves intrepid sleuths, these hardy souls, having found the secret route that'll guarantee that they'll get to where they're going in what they've come to view as the idea time.

We have very young children on our street. I see cars and trucks zipping by 20K over the limit. Heaven help you should suddenly open your own parked car door or step out onto the street, looking the wrong way.


----------



## Max

To further the discussion about light rail vs. busses and subways... I read this in NOW mag the other day, and thankfully they have it up on their website.


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 30 or so years ago when the car went from luxury item to entitlement?


Cars were not a luxury item 20 year ago--or even 50 years ago. And they're not en entitlement, just a consumer good people are entitled to freely buy and use.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> And they're not en entitlement, just a consumer good people are entitled to freely buy and use.


The funny thing about that, is that your man Ford (given his record - dui in Florida -admitted though charges dropped because he's a manipulative weasel) should not even have the right to drive. If he were riding the bus now like every other scumbag with a dui on their record, I'm sure he'd see transit plans (and the amount of cars on the road) a little differently. Though I would argue that a man of his carriage should be forced to pay a double fare.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce

dolawren said:


> The traffic light signals are a challenge though,
> I hate it when my motorbike can't trigger them to change at an intersection,
> Then I have to make a U Turn in order to get around a red light. (Very annoying)


I've never tried this, although I've read that it works. Apparently the sensors for traffics lights are triggered by the large amount of metal in vehicles not weight, as I would have assumed. Cyclists have taken to gluing those really strong rare earth magnets on the underside of the bottom bracket of their bike frames (part of the frame between the pedals) and these are said to trigger the signals. Should work for a scooter too.


----------



## Lawrence

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> I've never tried this, although I've read that it works. Apparently the sensors for traffics lights are triggered by the large amount of metal in vehicles not weight, as I would have assumed. Cyclists have taken to gluing those really strong rare earth magnets on the underside of the bottom bracket of their bike frames (part of the frame between the pedals) and these are said to trigger the signals. Should work for a scooter too.


I've heard that that works in the states, Haven't heard of it working in Canada,
Although I have heard that shutting the engine off and restarting will trigger the lights,
But, Quite frankly, I can't be bothered to wait, I'm always in a hurry to get to work.

My best time to work at Yonge and Sheppard from Main and Danforth is 15 minutes.
That's, Mostly DVP and 401 travel though, The rest is side streets at 6:30 a.m.


----------



## Lawrence

But if I take Ford's Subway to work,
Then it can take me up to an hour to get to Mel Lastman square,
Then another 20 minutes to walk the rest of the way to work.

Taking the bike shaves off not only time, But money,
It only costs me $1.50 each way by motorbike.

Also I get to make a few stops on the way...Mmmm...Starbucks.


----------



## kps

Max said:


> To further the discussion about light rail vs. busses and subways... I read this in NOW mag the other day, and thankfully they have it up on their website.


Surprisingly for Now that seemed pretty balanced. 

One of my gripes would be that I don't believe buses cost 20 mil per kilometre. If they do, then there's something seriously wrong at the TTC....oh wait, there is.

The other piece about the LRT running underground would certainly push the cost nearing that of the subway. That bit just does not make sense.

What does make sense is that we need to take a serious look at what is viable, affordable and will work. I don't want to see another "last hurrah" subway boondoggle like the Sheppard line. 

GTA traffic and commuting woes costs private enterprise 8.8 billion a year in lost productivity...I don't know about anyone else, but that is a staggering sum. Consequently, I'm not beyond having private enterprise contribute to the cause. I figure most commuters are far too self absorbed during their commutes to notice the buskers and homeless at subway stops, never mind any corporate induced decor that may exist as a result. "Happymeals" here we come. 

We discussed some older scrapped subway plans earlier (Eglinton, downtown expansion, Lakeshore, etc). Plans that should have been implemented 15 years ago. I would support that over any LRT systems.

We're heading for a crisis staying with the current paradigms and the sooner the whole GTA and the province get at it, the better.


----------



## Max

We are in that very crisis you refer to, kps. I believe the GTA is suffering economically and an outdated transportation plan (chaos bomb?) is a large part of that.

Agreed, burying an LRT brings it within the realm of subways and their hideous expense to dig. But yeah, the other piece is pretty balanced.... nicely weighs the pros and cons of the competing methods of moving mass amounts of people.

This is where I don't get Ford. The man is supposed to be all about saving major coin and wisely spending what money the city does have, yet he's continuing with the Sheppard subway - and that's about the extent of his grand plans for the entire GTA. It makes zero sense to me. I still think LRTs (or at least busses with dedicated right of ways) is the way to go. They move more people per given hour than busses and they're much cheaper to build than subways.

Back to the crisis. It's being allowed to bloom because politicians at city and provincial levels are waging petty turf battles rather than actively attempting to solve things with one grand unified plan. Instead we have these piecemeal solutions that are not integrated with one another - and that's on a good day; most of the time it's a lot of jawboning about 'planning for the future.' Bit of a crock. The city is messed up and it's going to take at least a generation to turn it around - principally because we wasted a generation doing zip. Reaping what we sowed, I suppose. Until we can get past the internecine and parochial politics, we're screwed.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> We are in that very crisis you refer to, kps. I believe the GTA is suffering economically and an outdated transportation plan (chaos bomb?) is a large part of that.
> 
> Agreed, burying an LRT brings it within the realm of subways and their hideous expense to dig. But yeah, the other piece is pretty balanced.... nicely weighs the pros and cons of the competing methods of moving mass amounts of people.
> 
> This is where I don't get Ford. The man is supposed to be all about saving major coin and wisely spending what money the city does have, yet he's continuing with the Sheppard subway - and that's about the extent of his grand plans for the entire GTA. It makes zero sense to me. I still think LRTs (or at least busses with dedicated right of ways) is the way to go. They move more people per given hour than busses and they're much cheaper to build than subways.
> 
> Back to the crisis. It's being allowed to bloom because politicians at city and provincial levels are waging petty turf battles rather than actively attempting to solve things with one grand unified plan. Instead we have these piecemeal solutions that are not integrated with one another - and that's on a good day; most of the time it's a lot of jawboning about 'planning for the future.' Bit of a crock. The city is messed up and it's going to take at least a generation to turn it around - principally because we wasted a generation doing zip. Reaping what we sowed, I suppose. Until we can get past the internecine and parochial politics, we're screwed.


I'm driving!


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> I'm driving!


Get a flat ya bastad!


----------



## kps

Useless self serving politicians seems to have been the trend for a while as evident of the pickle the GTA is in, all of GTA including up to Newmarket, Burlington in the west and Whitby in the east. They issue development and building permits yet the only access is some old single lane roads and the new subdivisions come right up to the old narrow shoulderless road...beautiful. 

Read an article a while back dealing with commuting. One guy from Burlington was so unnerved by the thought of his 90minute commute home that he left the car in his office underground and took the Go-Train home for a few days.

Another Burlington resident says that by the time the Go Train stops in Oakville there's standing room only and they're packed in there like sardines. All enjoying the perfumed air and B.O. LOL.

Which is better then...smelly packed Go Trains or a 90min drive from hell?

The issue is not just COTU, it's the whole region and pathetically inadequate public transportation which has been neglected for far too long. 

There is one commute which I would find incredibly relaxing if it wasn't for the 4hr duration....and that would be the BC ferry from Vacouver island to mainland Van.


----------



## Max

Yeah, time out of your life you'd never get back. Add it into your workday and you don't have much of a private life after you've given 'the man' his daily due.

COTU or the region in which the COTU is the centre, it's all the same. An antiquated road network and too little money to tend to repairs/service for it. Bridges and overhead ramps are in particular need of regular work lest they fall down after one too many cycles of freeze/salt/thaw.

The GO used to be not too bad. Thirty years ago. Now it's as crazy as the TTC's Yonge and Bloor Station at rush hour... or Union Station.

Talking about body odour reminds me. As our cities grow ever more crowded and dense, we also keep moving the goalposts regarding what's tolerable in terms of personal space and various affronts to our individual sensibilities. That includes certain smells - cooking food, dope, cigarettes, perfume/cologne or the dreaded critical lack of same, and other pungent things. Sure, if mixing with the loathesome masses are not your cuppa, you can always pull a MacFury and drive in your tightly-sealed car and go 'lalalalala' all the live-long day, although you're still navigating on the same choked grid everyone else is. Whatever floats your boat.

Or you can leave the city altogether and find a life elsewhere. That's another topic altogether, mind. A juicy one.


----------



## kps

It's pretty clear that we will NOT get people out of their cars. We will certainly not get those that need to use cars/vans/trucks out of them either. It's also kind of tough to convince someone to take public transit when there isn't any. It's even tougher to convince an eighty year old couple to bicycle to the TGH for that CAT scan. Sure, if you live in the core even I, a dedicated motor vehicle driver, would probably use the "better way"...but, if you live north of Eglinton, west of Jane or east of Vic Park....ferrrgetit. 

I'm still thinking of my "shack in the woods" lifestyle far from the rotten city, but then I'd have to drive just to pick up my mail, I'd need a tractor to clear my 1/4 mi long driveway, burn many kilowatts to power the two freezers I'd need because the nearest grocery is 50km away, pay a fortune for satellite internet so I could keep in touch with all you ehMacers (or ehMacians as the Mayor calls us), cut down lots of trees for heat, spend a fortune on wind and solar power and hunt for my food.


----------



## Max

Exactly. That's why it would make an interesting thread. Because the choices are not exactly without negative consequences.


----------



## kps

Max said:


> Exactly. That's why it would make an interesting thread. Because the choices are not exactly without negative consequences.


Yeah, start one...I'm still pining for that and I know you visit Trent Hills and probably think...what if? Mind you, that's pretty much in the "middle of [email protected]#% nowhere". 

You're more eloquent than I, so g'head, might make for an interesting comparison.


----------



## Max

Well, we're in the midst of buying property out that way. So yeah, we think about it! 

Mind you, it's just as likely to be an investment property, nothing more. But it _could_ serve as a transitional stepping stone to getting us out of there. It's complicated; we are hard-core urbanites but we also have come to love a more pastoral/rural ambience... the truth is we enjoy getting the best of both worlds. We're no more ready to exclusively commit to a small hamlet in 'the middle of nowhere' than we are ready to live out the rest of our lives where we currently are. We're just entertaining options, y'see.

The foodie and culture junky in me loves the big city for obvious reasons. I also like to hang at my local with an old pal from my Mississauga days... I'm very lucky to have a very close friend I've known for thirty-odd years. Even better that we can go out for a weekly pint at a bevvy establishment so close to our respective abodes.

Yet the painter and muso in me wants more studio space and quiet. Someplace where I can get my groove on. Alas, life tends to make plans of its own. To ease the transition, we'll want a foot in both worlds, at least for two or three years - beyond that you have to make a commitment to one thing or the other; all the energy you spend juggling those different balls tends to drain one. Alas, one has to consider work prospects in either world.

Hmmm... got away from the topic just a tad, didn't I? Where does the Ford clan go when it wants some R & R, I wonder?


----------



## kps

Max said:


> Hmmm... got away from the topic just a tad, didn't I? Where does the Ford clan go when it wants some R & R, I wonder?


Rexdale, I think. A virtual cornucopia of culture and a bevy of urban wonders.


----------



## whatiwant

kps said:


> Rexdale, I think. A virtual cornucopia of culture and a bevy of urban wonders.


Hehehe. That is hilarious.


----------



## Max

! Good zinger, kps.

But come on now. Surely the Ford clan vacations somewhere in cottage country at least.


----------



## Max

Back to Ford.... kps, I agree with you that "It's pretty clear that we will NOT get people out of their cars." I believe Ford understands that, which is why he's shutting down that battle. I am not sure just what he intends to do to accommodate a burgeoning population that's still very much car-dependent. I am not even sure he's sure. I mean, we know what he _doesn't_ want.


----------



## kps

Not much of a choice but to give him time and see where he leads us to.

It may be a complete face plant or a graceful back somersault with a double twist.

...provided the spring board can support him...then there's always the question of the landing.


----------



## Max

LOL

Yeah, give him time. He's paying out the rope now. He can either do his bit to rescue the city or he can hang himself. I think the man's got some monster challenges facing him.


----------



## whatiwant

Max said:


> LOL
> 
> Yeah, give him time. He's paying out the rope now. He can either do his bit to rescue the city or he can hang himself. I think the man's got some monster challenges facing him.


if any companies are receiving monster orders for kevlar cables take note.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> ure, if mixing with the loathesome masses are not your cuppa, you can always pull a MacFury and drive in your tightly-sealed car and go 'lalalalala' all the live-long day, although you're still navigating on the same choked grid everyone else is. Whatever floats your boat.


Floats _my_ 1970s-era boat!


----------



## Max

Well, there you go. Take comfort in the fact that what goes around comes around! You can also tint the windows and smoke your bong/snort your coke/drink your champagne in peace without the sorry natives looking hungrily in on you. Pretty sweet deal all around!


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Take comfort in the fact that what goes around comes around.


Exactly. With that sturdy V8 it goes around and comes around with appalling dependability.


----------



## groovetube

Drivin a v8 around town here? Isn't that a little like peeing it all up a wall really?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Drivin a v8 around town here? Isn't that a little like peeing it all up a wall really?


Not at all. It cruises the length and breadth of this great land we call Canada! It is equally comfortable here as it is elsewhere.


----------



## Max

To each his own, and his life is his own! You know the creed by now.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> To each his own, and his life is his own! You know the creed by now.


Exactly. If you want to putt, putt, putt I support your decision... to leave more room for me!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Not at all. It cruises the length and breadth of this great land we call Canada! It is equally comfortable here as it is elsewhere.


Ever been to Newfoundland and Labrador?


----------



## Max

It matters not, Dr. G... it cruiseth and stayeth comfortable wherever its master bideth!


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Ever been to Newfoundland and Labrador?


I was thinking of doing just that, but--just the Labrador part. How costly would it be for my car to see The Rock?


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I was thinking of doing just that, but--just the Labrador part. How costly would it be for my car to see The Rock?


Take a ferry from North Sydney, NS to either Port aux Basques or Argentia. PaB gets you within about 1000km of Labrador, and about 200km from St. John's if you go to Argentia.

Drop in for a beer if you are in the area. Paix, mon ami. Bon voyage.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Exactly. If you want to putt, putt, putt I support your decision... to leave more room for me!


ha ha ha, well, since you wouldn't be driving in any more comfort than I, certainly not driving any faster downtown by any means, it's hard to imagine anyone being particularly proud of being fleeced for far more cash to drive anywhere downtown then me. But then you -are- rather unique in that regard, I suppose!

Though given your insistence many times it's the bad crap we put in our air instead of actual climate change we should be worried about, it is odd you'd also be proud of poisoning the downtown core with lots more.


----------



## Macfury

I find it economical and I enjoy the ride!


----------



## Max

Groove: methinks our friend is being too insistently jolly. Do you get that feeling? Like he's grinning like mad but it's a rictus grin.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Groove: methinks our friend is being too insistently jolly. Do you get that feeling? Like he's grinning like mad but it's a rictus grin.


Yeah!


----------



## Max

I see we share many of the same cultural references.


----------



## Macfury

If we had been two Edwardian gentlemen I might have responded with a woodcut of Mr. Toad, a la Kenneth Grahame.


----------



## groovetube

plenty of the holiday cheer if he thinks paying for twice or three times the gas I do to get somewhere.

A fool and his money... y'know.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> plenty of the holiday cheer if he thinks paying for twice or three times the gas I do to get somewhere.
> 
> A fool and his money... y'know.


Live life small--enjoy!!


----------



## groovetube

with all that cash flyin outta your wallet for all that gas for nuthin', I guess you'd have to wouldn't you!

Enjoy!


----------



## Max

Two men squaring off at each other, each grimly determined to smile each other to death. _Quel spectacle!_


----------



## groovetube

sometimes, it's too easy Max.

It's sorta like when I toss the little fuzzy ball for the kitty.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Two men squaring off at each other, each grimly determined to smile each other to death. _Quel spectacle!_


You can smile--while you eat my dust. I'm too busy going places to square off against anyone.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> You can smile--while you eat my dust. I'm too busy going places to square off against anyone.


McDonalds drive-thru, here you come


----------



## Max

Hey buddy, can I have some fries with that salt?


----------



## whatiwant

Max said:


> Hey buddy, can I have some fries with that salt?


And some plastic with that milkshake? Hehe


----------



## groovetube

oh don't tell 'im about the soy in the burgs. 

That'd just be plain mean.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> oh don't tell 'im about the soy in the burgs.
> 
> That'd just be plain mean.


Then again he could drive to swiss chalet for some (foodsafe) bleached chicken product?


----------



## groovetube

now -that-, would indeed be livin large!


----------



## Lawrence

The 5¢ bag is no more?
Could it be that the privately owned stores can no longer stuff their coffers?

Toronto Mayor aims to axe the bag fee

I remember when I was a kid,
The grocer used to say Paper or plastic?

Now they expect you to pay for plastic,
No mention of paper as an alternative.


----------



## Macfury

That would really be perfect. Another idiot idea from Mayor Plastic Bags completely undone--I think his was what he believed to be his legacy! Most small retailers actually give me the plastic bags for nothing anyway. They're never wasted but used as garbage bags in this household.

Maybe the foolish idea notion of trucking Toronto's garbage to Michigan will also be terminated.


----------



## groovetube

since the program was enforced, never have I seen so many stop using plastic bags.

If anyone thinks this is a good idea that we continue to fill our landfills with these piles of plastic, you are of the same intelligence as this mayor.

The brainless parade continues...


----------



## Max

I heard on the radio that the last truck loaded with waste left for Michigan a day or two ago. That scheme is now toast. Toronto is once again back to dealing with its own garbage.

And no, it's not a good idea to bury so much plastic. I believe the tariff worked - at least, for a large percentage of shoppers, who simply come equipped with their own cloth/canvas bags. If this is what Ford considers a bold move, I have to wonder about the fellow. Perhaps his grab bag of magic tricks is nearly empty.


----------



## mrjimmy

I think the fee for bag program is brilliant. I rarely see people getting bags anymore. Resuable bags abound. Good for Miller!

Now, if the cash generated could be directed into useful programs rather than lining the retailers pockets it would be a true success. 

Ford is using up his parlour tricks pretty quickly. He will soon be seen as the pro-garbage Mayor. Not an intellectual giant our Rob.


----------



## Lawrence

Maybe Ford will turn his focus onto the Hearn Generating station for burning Toronto's
garbage in the near future to generate electricity.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if he does decide to do that.


----------



## mrjimmy

dolawren said:


> Maybe Ford will turn his focus onto the Hearn Generating station for burning Toronto's
> garbage in the near future to generate electricity.
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if he does decide to do that.


It what the 905ers demand!


----------



## groovetube

appealing to the lowest common denominator, and convincing them what's good for the money, is good for them, seems to have worked for the "right" quite well for them.

Amazing to see them all line up for ' the good'.

Nationally we're looking at tax hikes to us and corporate tax cuts. And weeeeee LIKE it.


Here in Toronto, there's much dancing in the streets to spend BILLIONS on a subway very few will take, do nothing for transit practically overflowing at the seams, save 60 bucks on vehicle registration, and NOW, we can party that we will no longer spend *30 cents* at the grocery store for that mean, evil socialist plot!

You simply, cannot make this stuff up.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> I think the fee for bag program is brilliant. I rarely see people getting bags anymore. Resuable bags abound. Good for Miller!
> 
> Now, if the cash generated could be directed into useful programs rather than lining the retailers pockets it would be a true success.


It was never much of a success at anything.

Take: All of the plastic bags used by Torontonians in a year
Subtract: All used as garbage liners, to pick up dog waste or recycled
Subtract: All additional garbage liners now purchased to replace free bags.
Subtract: Environmental cost of producing reusable bags

Melt the remainder down, and the total volume "diverted from landfill" would be stunningly small. If you are a "guilty consumer" and feel good bout your tiny impact, you will declare the program a stunning success.

A huge program nickel and diming Toronto consumers for dubious benefit.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> appealing to the lowest common denominator, and convincing them what's good for the money, is good for them, seems to have worked for the "right" quite well for them.
> 
> Amazing to see them all line up for ' the good'.
> 
> Nationally we're looking at tax hikes to us and corporate tax cuts. And weeeeee LIKE it.
> 
> 
> Here in Toronto, there's much dancing in the streets to spend BILLIONS on a subway very few will take, do nothing for transit practically overflowing at the seams, save 60 bucks on vehicle registration, and NOW, we can party that we will no longer spend *30 cents* at the grocery store for that mean, evil socialist plot!
> 
> You simply, cannot make this stuff up.


When expressed by you, most ideas don't sound very good.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It was never much of a success at anything.
> 
> Take: All of the plastic bags used by Torontonians in a year
> Subtract: All used as garbage liners, to pick up dog waste or recycled
> Subtract: All additional garbage liners now purchased to replace free bags.
> Subtract: Environmental cost of producing reusable bags
> 
> Melt the remainder down, and the total volume "diverted from landfill" would be stunningly small. If you are a "guilty consumer" and feel good bout your tiny impact, you will declare the program a stunning success.
> 
> A huge program nickel and diming Toronto consumers for dubious benefit.


professor macfury has all the answers. It's as easy as one two three.

Unfortunately he can't account for the huge numbers of shopping bags that get tossed constantly because one couldn't possibly fill enough garbage and doggie poop to keep up with that amount of shopping bags.

Unless mr ford decides to cancel recycling and green too. We haven't wasted enough millions of dollars yet so that wouldn't be a surprise. The right LOVES to shriek fiscal conservatism and then spend gobs more in the process don't they.



Macfury said:


> When expressed by you, most ideas don't sound very good.


it unfortunately doesn't look good no matter who describes it in simple, truthful terms.


----------



## Adrian.

I'm going to have to defend MF on this one. I think the idea of the bags is bad. But, they are extremely useful for picking up dog crap, garbage bags, painting, household stuff etc. A better approach would have been to educate people on how to use them well.

What is going to happen is people are going to start buying bags or other products for the ones that these bags were used for!


----------



## groovetube

everyone I know including myself ended up with huge garbage bags full, of unused shopping bags all the time.


----------



## Max

Agreed. We have a kitchen stuffed full of those bags. For years we used them to deal with kitty litter (two cats here) but then we switched to the biodegradable bags for that particular task. I use the clear plastic bags for covering frozen berries until we're ready to make smoothies out of them the following morning... but beyond that, we still have absurd amounts of junk plastic bags kicking around; we use straw and cloth bags for the trips to the grocery store, too. Somehow the things seem to propagate themselves.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> everyone I know including myself ended up with huge garbage bags full, of unused shopping bags all the time.


These are recyclable--and bags full of bags is the ideal way to recycle them. However, you were always free to use a reusable bag.


----------



## mrjimmy

I agree that the bags provided far outnumbered the ones needed. If nothing else a fee per bag teaches restraint.

Also, shame on dog owners etc. who don't use biodegradeable bags. The landfill clogging non biodegradable plastic bag has outlived it's purpose. We have better methods. We've evolved.


----------



## Max

One might argue that it's not the business of the government to teach restraint. The very notion seems quaintly paternalistic.

But in this case I'm good with the charge... although I would lift it in another year or two.


----------



## kps

To be more environmentally responsible (and to avoid paying the ¢5 tax), I bought those reusable carry bags...now I have a closet full of these reusable plastic bags because I kept forgetting them in the closet.


----------



## mrjimmy

Max said:


> One might argue that it's not the business of the government to teach restraint. The very notion seems quaintly paternalistic.
> 
> But in this case I'm good with the charge... although I would lift it in another year or two.


One might and I'm sure he will weigh in soon.

If the fee dissuades people from using a potentially harmful product and the revenue goes to useful projects then it's a success that I would keep indefinitely.


----------



## Ottawaman

The fee goes to the store as far as I know.

edit

Toronto merchants can keep the 5-cent bag fee, city hall says http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/06/01/toronto-merchants-can-keep-the-5-cent-bag-fee-city-hall-says.aspx#ixzz19oPZl600


----------



## mrjimmy

Ottawaman said:


> The fee goes to the store as far as I know.


And where it goes after that is anyone's guess. Show me a store doing good work with the revenue and they will get my Shreddies and milk $$$.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> One might argue that it's not the business of the government to teach restraint. The very notion seems quaintly paternalistic.
> 
> But in this case I'm good with the charge... although I would lift it in another year or two.


given the overwhelming evidence that people have gone to using the reusable bags to avoid paying the 5 cents, Id say anyone trying to argue that one is blind deaf and mute. To be, charitable. 

However the goal here is to reduce the use of them, not -just- keep recycling. It seems in the ford mentality reduce doesn't exist.


----------



## Macfury

Just say that it helps "the children" and you can all have a good cry and carry on with Saint Miller's good work.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> It seems in the ford mentality reduce doesn't exist.


Trying-hard-not-to-make-joke-here...

Phew! Got by that one!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Just say that it helps "the children" and you can all have a good cry and carry on with Saint Miller's good work.


if you read this with Homer Simpson's voice it makes it almost... funny.


----------



## Macfury

It should be said In Homer's voice--as should most of Miller's policy statements.


----------



## groovetube

ah the 'i know you are but what am I' begins already.

My job is done. :lmao:

happy new year. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> ah the 'i know you are but what am I' begins already.
> 
> My job is done. :lmao:
> 
> happy new year. :clap:



Beginning 2011, a lonely man applauding yourself and "LOLing" your own jokes. Not an auspicious start...


----------



## ehMax

Macfury said:


> When expressed by you, most ideas don't sound very good.


And yet, another witty quip directed at another ehMac member, will get you the rest of the first day of 2011 off.


----------



## Macfury

Sure!


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> Just say that it helps "the children" and you can all have a good cry and carry on with Saint Miller's good work.


This is almost pathological - this whole moist-hands, guilt-in-dollops, snide insinuation that all who disagree with you are somehow mired in weakness.

It serves you ill, Macfury.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> given the overwhelming evidence that people have gone to using the reusable bags to avoid paying the 5 cents, Id say anyone trying to argue that one is blind deaf and mute. To be, charitable.
> 
> However the goal here is to reduce the use of them, not -just- keep recycling. It seems in the ford mentality reduce doesn't exist.


Unfortunately people are making themselves sick from using reusable bags,
Seems that that dripping raw meat that you bought from your previous purchase
doesn't react nicely with your newest purchase of goods in that reusable bag.

Just like that grocery store shopping store cart or basket isn't really that hygienic either,
After all it wasn't washed or cleaned after each use either.

I think that those single use plastic bags may have been a good idea after all.


----------



## groovetube

I think the sane thing, is to simply use a bag or 2 as needed, for the meat. Use cotton for the rest, and wash the cotton bags a little more often than once a year.

I hear the arguments against 'nanny states', but really, it seems people are almost crying for it...


----------



## Max

dolawren said:


> Unfortunately people are making themselves sick from using reusable bags,
> Seems that that dripping raw meat that you bought from your previous purchase
> doesn't react nicely with your newest purchase of goods in that reusable bag.
> 
> Just like that grocery store shopping store cart or basket isn't really that hygienic either,
> After all it wasn't washed or cleaned after each use either.
> 
> I think that those single use plastic bags may have been a good idea after all.


I don't agree. We appear to have morphed into such a germ-phobic society that our preventative measures are so as extreme as to actually serve to weaken our formerly robust immune systems. There is a persuasive argument in some circles that we have made ourselves progressively more delicate - our ancestors were of hardier stock.

Burt on to your claim about dripping raw meat: if I go to the local Loblaws and score a piece of beef, that's tightly wrapped in brown waxed paper. Neither does that get reused... I toss it, because I'm under the impression that waxed papers are not locally recyclable... perhaps I'm wrong on that score?

Similarly, if I go to the same store and buy two or three fresh fillets of, say, tilapia, it's tightly wrapped in a white plastic bag. Once it's home I don't wash or otherwise attempt to reuse that bag. It's tossed, rightly or wrongly. But at the checkout, that wrapped and sealed purchase goes into a straw or woven bag. It's not a full measure, admittedly, but it's better than doubling up on plastic bags.


----------



## groovetube

good god. Stuff like this you just can't, make up.

So, I save 60 bucks on registering my vehicle, only to see my monthly transit pass for the year go up by.... 60 bucks.

how many napkins did it take to figure this math out?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> good god. Stuff like this you just can't, make up.
> 
> So, I save 60 bucks on registering my vehicle, only to see my monthly transit pass for the year go up by.... 60 bucks.
> 
> how many napkins did it take to figure this math out?


The Toronto Transit Commission recommends its own rates. Now it's getting closer to a user pay system, something of which I approve. That money doesn't go into the general revenue, it goes to the TTC, so your napkin analogy is faulty.


----------



## i-rui

even if the money trail isn't directly/literally linked between the vehicle registration tax and the ttc fare hike, symbolically it is.

This is the budget strategy that ford has. to cut taxes on those who voted for him and transfer that shortfall to those who didn't. It's a political shell game.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> The Toronto Transit Commission recommends its own rates. Now it's getting closer to a user pay system, something of which I approve. That money doesn't go into the general revenue, it goes to the TTC, so your napkin analogy is faulty.


That's dead wrong, and your logic is beyond faulty.

The ttc does not operate in a vacuum, and if it doesn't have the money to provide the needed service, it has to get it somehow. It already is cutting back service on some 50 routes (here comes the less service for more tax money...).

As for the transit system being self sufficient, well beyond that being unrealistic which is hardly surprising from some right wing supporters, a quick overview on what transit system need and cover themselves shows The TTC recovers 71% of its operating costs from the farebox. Montreal 59%, NYC 55%, Chicago 33%, LA 26%

I'd say, we're already, doing far and above many other major centres. Maybe you'd be more satisfied with more subsidies being sent to encourage more cars on the road, creating even further gridlock.

My napkin analogy, stands.


----------



## screature

Max said:


> *I don't agree. We appear to have morphed into such a germ-phobic society that our preventative measures are so as extreme as to actually serve to weaken our formerly robust immune systems. There is a persuasive argument in some circles that we have made ourselves progressively more delicate - our ancestors were of hardier stock...*


+ 1. Absolutely. My dogs eat s**t I never could and suffer no ill consequences... partly because of rampant antibiotic use in humans to a large part, based on the research I have seen, and partly becuase of our genetic differences... 

Humans use WAY too many antibiotics and today's parents are just too protective... let your kids eat mud pie's...  in the short term it may make them sick but in the long term they will probably be better off for it....


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> even if the money trail isn't directly/literally linked between the vehicle registration tax and the ttc fare hike, symbolically it is.


Only if the symbols match up with your own personal ideas.



groovetube said:


> That's dead wrong, and your logic is beyond faulty.
> 
> The ttc does not operate in a vacuum, and if it doesn't have the money to provide the needed service, it has to get it somehow. It already is cutting back service on some 50 routes (here comes the less service for more tax money...).
> 
> As for the transit system being self sufficient, well beyond that being unrealistic which is hardly surprising from some right wing supporters, a quick overview on what transit system need and cover themselves shows The TTC recovers 71% of its operating costs from the farebox. Montreal 59%, NYC 55%, Chicago 33%, LA 26%.


The TTC should recover all of its money from the fare box. It kept the surplus it earned last year for unexpected increased ridership, and will now increase fares to make up its recent losses. It's on its way to becoming self-sufficient-that seems fair to me.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> + 1. Absolutely. My dogs eat s**t I never could and suffer no ill consequences... partly because of rampant antibiotic use in humans to a large part, based on the research I have seen, and partly becuase of our genetic differences...
> 
> Humans use WAY too many antibiotics and today's parents are just too protective... let your kids eat mud pie's...  in the short term it may make them sick but in the long term they will probably be better off for it....



I used to worry about the idea of feeding my dog a raw meat diet until I thought about him eating a two-week-old squirrel with no ill-effects. He's just enjoyed a nice plate of raw chicken hearts and gizzards.


----------



## Dr.G.

ehMax said:


> Mrs. ehMax has driven a Mayor.
> 
> *ZING!!!!!*
> 
> Sorry... it's a Friday night.





Wow!!!!!! And I thought that this was a family web site. Luckily The Shangri-la Clubhouse thread is the last bastion of peaceful and sensible, non-violent and non-sexual postings here in ehMacLand. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Only if the symbols match up with your own personal ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> The TTC should recover all of its money from the fare box. It kept the surplus it earned last year for unexpected increased ridership, and will now increase fares to make up its recent losses. It's on its way to becoming self-sufficient-that seems fair to me.


What a bunch of nonsense.

what, according to macfury? Did you not see the list of major urban centers, and the fact that the ttc already VERY significantly recovers far more than any of them already?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> What a bunch of nonsense.
> 
> what, according to macfury? Did you not see the list of major urban centers, and the fact that the ttc already VERY significantly recovers far more than any of them already?


Of course I did. How should that affect this city? Toronto is well on its way to 100% recovery. They should complete the process.


----------



## groovetube

Yes lets start charging 5 bucks at the turnstile, so even less people can afford public transit.

Brilliant macfury!

oh, while we're at it, since we shouldn't be subsidizing transit whatsoever, when you take your car out onto the road, you should really, pay a fee of at least 5 to 10 bucks for the privilege. Each ride.

I don't think those taking transit are interested in subsidizing the maintenance of your roads any further.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Yes lets start charging 5 bucks at the turnstile, so even less people can afford public transit.
> 
> Brilliant macfury!
> 
> oh, while we're at it, since we shouldn't be subsidizing transit whatsoever, when you take your car out onto the road, you should really, pay a fee of at least 5 to 10 bucks for the privilege. Each ride.


Well of course that figure is ridiculous, but the concept is correct, As we develop technology to move to user-pay we should. The TTC already has that ability.


----------



## i-rui

hmmm.... like a vehicle registration tax?

(not that i'm defending that tax, as it was poorly implemented...but that was basically the concept behind it)


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Well of course that figure is ridiculous, but the concept is correct, As we develop technology to move to user-pay we should. The TTC already has that ability.


is that your version of backtracking? I didn't think you'd be for road tolls.

Of course, the vehicle reg tax, could have provided a way for the city to recoup money spent on road and infrastructure (for drivers) but I recall you were all over that cut. But for yanking more out of transit riders!

Funny logic.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> hmmm.... like a vehicle registration tax?
> 
> (not that i'm defending that tax, as it was poorly implemented...but that was basically the concept behind it)


I'm guessing we won't see any kind of "100% recovery" from drivers under Ford anytime soon.


----------



## kps

Untie your knotted panties boys, the TTC rate hike was in the works long before the election and the killing of the car registration tax. Can't blame Ford for this one.

Metropass goes up by $5, cash fare remains the same @ $3...Ford may even kill this rate hike. Relax and...wait for it. If he does, will you haters cheer?

The TTC has long needed an enema. Typically, they cut services instead of cutting their over spending. Trim the fat and waste, not services...this is another wait and see.


----------



## groovetube

oh boy. Here we go with the "trim the fat" mantra again.

<barf>


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> <barf>


I'd hate to think what you'd have done if I said "gravy train"... lol


----------



## groovetube

I'd be on vacation lol.

This is better argued over guinesses. Where's the mose?


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Trim the fat


He's got a lot of....(trails off)

Never mind.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> is that your version of backtracking? I didn't think you'd be for road tolls.
> 
> Of course, the vehicle reg tax, could have provided a way for the city to recoup money spent on road and infrastructure (for drivers) but I recall you were all over that cut. But for yanking more out of transit riders!
> 
> Funny logic.


I'm more for privatized roads and far less for public transit. The vehicle registration tax was simply a cash grab that had little or nothing to do with roads. I approve of pay-for-use, not tax grabs.


----------



## groovetube

no you're not.

You're for letting other people pay the tax. 

For privatized roads?

pfffft. right.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> no you're not.
> 
> You're for letting other people pay the tax.
> 
> For privatized roads?
> 
> pfffft. right.


Privatized roads where possible, and privatized transit--just as Jane Jacobs advocated.

Makes more sense than everybody subsidizing everybody else when it's all our money in the first place.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> Trim the fat and waste, not services...this is another wait and see.


There is nothing to wait and see. The TTC has already announced they're going to cut service (several bus routes have been canceled)


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Privatized roads where possible, and privatized transit--just as Jane Jacobs advocated.
> 
> Makes more sense than everybody subsidizing everybody else when it's all our money in the first place.


oh yeah, privatizing roads is greeeat idea. *cough*407*cough*

It's the right wing mantra. Privatizing will solve everything. Somehow, if the private sector runs it, it will magically be run better, and solve out financial problems.

The same geniuses are the ones shrieking about the "nanny state". 

Your info says "toronto proper'. Is somewhere like Belleville "toronto proper?


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I'd be on vacation lol.
> 
> This is better argued over guinesses. Where's the mose?


Proly too busy with his new love interest. lol

We are overdue though...


----------



## groovetube

oh right. Forgot. A good beer and holler is good for the soul.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> There is nothing to wait and see. The TTC has already announced they're going to cut service (several bus routes have been canceled)


Low ridership due to the fact that they do not go anywhere convenient...like a subway perhaps? Now if they only built more subways...what then? Classic "chicken and egg" don't you think?


----------



## Max

Hey, I'm down for a pint. I'll be taking the TTC, too! Hopefully MF will feel it in his pocketbook.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> oh right. Forgot. A good beer and holler is good for the soul.


We should invite Rob Ford to our p*ssup...I think it would be a hoot.


----------



## Max

That would be entertaining. We should invite him but keep the media out of it. That would be one way to take a measure of the man.


----------



## kps

I'd leave the measuring to mrJimmy. 



> He's got a lot of....(trails off)
> 
> Never mind.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> oh yeah, privatizing roads is greeeat idea. *cough*407*cough*
> 
> It's the right wing mantra. Privatizing will solve everything. Somehow, if the private sector runs it, it will magically be run better, and solve out financial problems.
> 
> The same geniuses are the ones shrieking about the "nanny state".
> 
> Your info says "toronto proper'. Is somewhere like Belleville "toronto proper?


It is not the mantra of the right wing... unless you consider Jane Jacobs a right-winger.


----------



## groovetube

well that's funn, because that's what I hear from most of them, including, you.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> We should invite Rob Ford to our p*ssup...I think it would be a hoot.


indeed. It would be fun to get down to brass tacks. In the process perhaps he could explain himself.

Pints, definitely. I'd say a few more, hopefully I don't have a gig that involves a few tub of beer the night before.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> I'm more for privatized roads and far less for public transit. The vehicle registration tax was simply a cash grab that had little or nothing to do with roads. I approve of pay-for-use, not tax grabs.


The war against the car is over, The war against the pedestrian begins.

I just hope Ford leaves the motorbikes alone.


----------



## Macfury

dolawren said:


> The war against the car is over, The war against the pedestrian begins.
> 
> I just hope Ford leaves the motorbikes alone.


Looks like Ford is giving bicyclists dedicated bike lanes guarded by a curb. Not bad for non-drivers.


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> I'd leave the measuring to mrJimmy.


There's no tape large or small enough kps.


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> There's no tape large or small enough kps.


Bring a GPS...we'll use latitude and longitude.

I was listening to 1010 yesterday and Jim Richards was making fun of Ford's inflection while speaking --when his voice goes up an octave or two at certain points. Then he kept replaying Ford's budget speech over and over.


----------



## whatiwant

dolawren said:


> The war against the car is over, The war against the pedestrian begins.


I had to go up on my tiptoes to avoid being hit by a car turning right onto church from king last night. I left a firm impression of my boot on his rear panel. Toronto has some of the worst drivers I've ever witnessed.


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> Bring a GPS...we'll use latitude and longitude.
> 
> I was listening to 1010 yesterday and Jim Richards was making fun of Ford's inflection while speaking --when his voice goes up an octave or two at certain points. Then he kept replaying Ford's budget speech over and over.


There is much chatter around the interwebs about how a few of our glorious leaders, namely Ford and Hudak, have begun to adopt an Obama type speech pattern. Perhaps our new Mayor is still working out the kinks with his voice coach.

The very nature of Ford lends itself to merciless mocking. His ticks, weight and low brow bluster are easy targets. I'd say get ready for more where that came from.


----------



## mrjimmy

jawknee said:


> I had to go up on my tiptoes to avoid being hit by a car turning right onto church from king last night. I left a firm impression of my boot on his rear panel. Toronto has some of the worst drivers I've ever witnessed.


Their sense of entitlement and lack of awareness is astounding. We're in line to be in direct competition with Mexico or at the very least, Quebec.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> There is much chatter around the interwebs about how a few of our glorious leaders, namely Ford and Hudak, have begun to adopt an Obama type speech pattern.


That would be extensive use of the word "uhhh," which I believe Obama has, uh, copyrighted for his personal use.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> That would be extensive use of the word "uhhh," which I believe Obama has, uh, copyrighted for his personal use.


Seems to have, uhhh, influence. 

I think it's all about pausing and inflection though you Obama hater you.


----------



## Lawrence

jawknee said:


> I had to go up on my tiptoes to avoid being hit by a car turning right onto church from king last night. I left a firm impression of my boot on his rear panel. Toronto has some of the worst drivers I've ever witnessed.


You got that right, Imagine how I feel on the DVP and the 401,
I could tell you stories, Maybe next riding season I'll mount a video camera.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Seems to have, uhhh, influence.
> 
> I think it's all about pausing and inflection though you Obama hater you.


Blame David Letterman for this one:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Joker Eh

jawknee said:


> I had to go up on my tiptoes to avoid being hit by a car turning right onto church from king last night. I left a firm impression of my boot on his rear panel. Toronto has some of the worst drivers I've ever witnessed.


Well now you will have to watch out for street cars.

Pedestrian struck, killed by streetcar | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


----------



## whatiwant

Joker Eh said:


> Well now you will have to watch out for street cars.
> 
> Pedestrian struck, killed by streetcar | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


eww. Sounds grisly


----------



## mrjimmy

I think Rob just used his 'Get Out Of jail Free' card:



> TTC fare hike off as city comes up with the money - thestar.com





> “The mayor’s very happy there will not be a 10-cent fare hike for TTC riders,” said Adrien Batra, spokesperson for Mayor Rob Ford. She dismissed suggestions that the threat of a fare increase, followed by relief, was engineered to make the mayor look good.
> 
> 
> 
> “It’s really unfortunate that certain councillors are suggesting that, because I think everybody wanted to know how this money was going to be found and it’s been found and the fact that there is not going to be a 10-cent fare increase is very good news,” she said.
> 
> 
> After the announcement, rookie Councillor Josh Matlow tweeted: “I’m delighted TTC fares won’t be hiked. But how did the city manager (find) $16 million in 30 hours? Now that’s magical gravy.”


And what about Rob himself?



> Ford has been a critic of such surprise turn-arounds in the past. Last March, when then-mayor David Miller announced a surprise $100 million budget surplus, Ford told a radio host it was evidence of either “corruption” or “major incompetence” in city budgeting.
> 
> 
> “He made the media look like fools and he made everyone else that followed his little game look like fools,” Ford said.


Fools you say?


----------



## groovetube

He just mouths off, and people buy it.

He's simply discovered the stupidity and amnesia of voters.


----------



## kps

kps said:


> Metropass goes up by $5, cash fare remains the same @ $3...F*ord may even kill this rate hike. Relax and...wait for it. If he does, will you haters cheer?*
> .


...I guess not. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Well, wasn't this the guy who stood up and said we'd all have more money in our pockets?

Hmmm. It seems everything is going up, and we're getting service cuts. Funny enough, that's precisely what the "pinkos" said would happen!

Mr. Ford Lied.

Can't til 2012. Bet we have, LESS money in our pockets.


----------



## kps

I didn't hear Ford announce any service cuts or rate increases...I did however hear him threaten city department managers who didn't meet plan. The guy's been Mayor for some 40 odd days, give him a chance to prove himself or fall on his face, either way, too soon to say.


----------



## Lawrence

When will Mayor Ford stop listening to Mike Harris and give up on union busting?
Leave the unions alone, Privatizing the garbage pickup is the wrong way to go.


----------



## adagio

dolawren said:


> When will Mayor Ford stop listening to Mike Harris and give up on union busting?
> Leave the unions alone, Privatizing the garbage pickup is the wrong way to go.


That's news to those who live in Etobicoke. Night and day difference in service. I'll let you guess which one is better.


----------



## Sonal

dolawren said:


> When will Mayor Ford stop listening to Mike Harris and give up on union busting?
> Leave the unions alone, Privatizing the garbage pickup is the wrong way to go.


I've never been heavily pro-union or anti-union, but once the City introduced usage fees for multi-residential buildings, we switched to private for all the buildings, and have been saving a significant amount of money.... and this is even with having to privately pick up recycling and organic waste, and no longer getting a credit back from the city.

Not to mention we don't get nearly as many billing errors, and we save a lot of time in sorting those out. 

Raises the question: if the private guys are so much cheaper, for the same service, why does public cost so much?


----------



## Macfury

sonal said:


> raises the question: If the private guys are so much cheaper, for the same service, why does public cost so much?


u-n-i-o-n


----------



## SINC

Yeah, there's a lot of truth in that old saying, "Union makes us long" (for much better service).


----------



## Macfury

I've seen the difference for businesses in Toronto who switched to private service. Night and day.


----------



## groovetube

the building I was in didn't see any difference. We were supposed to save money, didn't.

Anyway, I'm on the fence about it, proof is in the pudding as they say. When/if they privatize, we'll see.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> the building I was in didn't see any difference. We were supposed to save money, didn't.


The condo building I live in probably wouldn't benefit from privatizing... at our last AGM, we were actually getting a little money back from the city, but then our usage (and costs) suddenly went up. Not sure if the city made some billing errors or if everyone simultaneously decided to stop recycling or what.


----------



## adagio

I don't particularly care if there is little savings. The bonus is there will be no chance of a repeat performance of old folks being harassed trying to drop off garbage during a strike. The union goons brought this privatization on themselves. Did they think the citizens would forgive and forget? 

Just as an aside, Toronto is one of a tiny few municipalities that don't outsource garbage collection. Other cities seem to do just fine using private collection.


----------



## kps

They can only privatize half of it...so the plan is everything west of Yonge st. to the Etobicoke border to be privatized.

The city will continue to collect east of Yonge St. Apparently they can't privatize all of it because of some "job for life" clause in the city contract under which some of these collectors fall. Who was the putz who signed off on that deal? 

Three hundred of the garbage collectors will be affected and probably offered jobs with the private sector contractor if they want it...probably at a slight reduction in pay and benefits but I'll bet you it won't be a great difference. The only difference now will be that they'll actually have to work a bit harder and meet new productivity standards.


----------



## adagio

kps said:


> The city will continue to collect east of Yonge St. Apparently they can't privatize all of it because of some "job for life" clause in the city contract under which some of these collectors fall. *Who was the putz who signed off on that deal?*


Miller. Price he paid to end the last strike. #*&^%$(*&^%$


----------



## Macfury

adagio said:


> Miller. Price he paid to end the last strike. #*&^%$(*&^%$


Well, Miller has his legacy. A bunch of overpaid garbage pickers with jobs for life. Fitting.


----------



## i-rui

adagio said:


> Miller. Price he paid to end the last strike. #*&^%$(*&^%$


actually it was Mel Lastman.

Anything else you guys want to erroneously blame on Miller? Cancer? Rainy Days?


----------



## whatiwant

i-rui said:


> actually it was Mel Lastman.
> 
> Anything else you guys want to erroneously blame on Miller? Cancer? Rainy Days?


Harper's hairdo?


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> actually it was Mel Lastman.
> 
> Anything else you guys want to erroneously blame on Miller? Cancer? Rainy Days?


It's always somehow Miller's fault.

Though despite the usual nonsense of saving tons of money, I can't say I'd miss the garbage strike crap.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> actually it was Mel Lastman.
> 
> Anything else you guys want to erroneously blame on Miller? Cancer? Rainy Days?


Miller granted jobs-for-life to more than 400 garbage pickers in 2005 to avoid a garbage strike.


----------



## i-rui

"The so-called jobs-for-life clause was negotiated by former Mayor Mel Lastman in his first term as mayor, and the city unsuccessfully attempted to have the clause removed from the contract in 2002, kicking off a 16-day strike."

InsideToronto Article: Privatized garbage collection could become reality


----------



## Dr T

I never thought much about the correlation of garbage pickers (as you call them) and jobs-for-life before reading this thread, but it makes a lot of sense to me. Somebody has to clean up the mess that others make, and it can't be a pleasant job, and you can't expect your mother to go out and clean up the streets after she is finished cleaning house after you make a mess there. So if the profession of garbage picking at least comes with tenure, an increasingly rare privilege in our society, then it means we could have reasonably content and reliable garbage pickers who come and take away that smelly mess that you generated but do not want to touch. How can anyone scoff at that?


On a slightly different take: what Torontonians lump together as one smelly heap of garbage is carefully separated where I live. In this small, rural community, we have recycling, we have composting, we have a free book room where you leave your previously enjoyed books and magazines for someone else to enjoy next, and that just leaves a small residue that goes to the landfill. The "garbage pickers" then turn out to be people with various areas of expertise. Some are very thoughtful people who devote their time to devising methods and practice of waste reduction. The recycling staff must sort the incoming stuff into many distinct streams of re-usable material. Once you accept the concept of composting, you will find it easy to separate the material that will rot and smell next time the garbage pickers go on strike. You don't even have to compost yourself - just learn to separate and isolate the bits that will rot.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> "The so-called jobs-for-life clause was negotiated by former Mayor Mel Lastman in his first term as mayor, and the city unsuccessfully attempted to have the clause removed from the contract in 2002, kicking off a 16-day strike."


Yes, but then it applied only to workers with more than 10 years seniority. In 2005, Miller extended the coverage.


----------



## Macfury

klokeid said:


> How can anyone scoff at that?


Because the jobs are being offered at well in excess of market value.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford has asked for a list of city assets to sell to help balance the budget when he attempts to kill the toronto land transfer tax (which is expected to pull in a cool 220 million). When ever I see one doing that, you just know what they're doing simply isn't sustainable or realistic.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Because the jobs are being offered at well in excess of market value.


It seems as though the definition of market value in this case is the average wage the majority of 'garbage pickers', as you call them earn. It stands to reason that the private collection companies are likely paying below market value.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> It seems as though the definition of market value in this case is the average wage the majority of 'garbage pickers', as you call them earn. It stands to reason that the private collection companies are likely paying below market value.


Your understanding of "market value" is incorrect. Market value is not some arbitrary price that union leaders say is fair. 

Market value is the price at which people will take the jobs. The City of Toronto offers wages in excess of that amount. People running private garbage companies have no trouble hiring at lower wages. If nobody responded to their ads, then they would be paying below market value.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Rob Ford has asked for a list of city assets to sell to help balance the budget when he attempts to kill the toronto land transfer tax (which is expected to pull in a cool 220 million). When ever I see one doing that, you just know what they're doing simply isn't sustainable or realistic.


It may not be what you want to see, but it is realistic. And I applaud anything that will kill the land transfer tax.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Your understanding of "market value" is incorrect. Market value is not some arbitrary price that union leaders say is fair.
> 
> Market value is the price at which people will take the jobs. The City of Toronto offers wages in excess of that amount. People running private garbage companies have no trouble hiring at lower wages. If nobody responded to their ads, then they would be paying below market value.



So what_ you're saying_ is that 'market value' is some arbitrary price that private contractors say is fair.

In order to take this post seriously, please provide links that verify the following:



> People running private garbage companies have no trouble hiring at lower wages


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> So what_ you're saying_ is that 'market value' is some arbitrary price that private contractors say is fair.
> 
> In order to take this post seriously, please provide links that verify the following:


No, it has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with the value of the labour.

The fact that private services are already handling much of Toronto's garbage collection is proof that they are able to hire enough workers at market wages to complete the contracts.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> it has nothing to do with fairness.


Never a truer word spoken. That's why unions exist.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Never a truer word spoken. That's why unions exist.


In fact it is true and I'm not ashamed to say it. Fairness has nothing to do with it. Is it fair that people pay more to have their garbage hauled away because union garbage pickers are making $25 per hour? When we attempt to impose "fairness" on one part of the equation, we impose unfairness on another. At least market forces deal with this rationally and impartially.

Most of the problems caused by unions are the result of rebranding personal greed as "fairness."


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Yes, but then it applied only to workers with more than 10 years seniority. In 2005, Miller extended the coverage.


yes but Lastman was the "putz" who signed off on it. The majority of workers on this clause are still from his original deal, ergo it's his "legacy", not Miller's.

I live in etobicoke. The privatized collection for the most part is good, but they also constantly leave bins all over the street. Yard waste collection is atrocious as they don't even try to empty the leaves out of my bins and get most of it on the street. (not sure if yard waste is privatized).

I think what most people misunderstand is that just because it's privatized doesn't mean there can never be a strike. Workers can still form a union. There may be fines, but the corporation will get hit with them, not the workers. And as with anything in the corporate world they would make a monetary decision on the cost of breaking the union vs the cost of paying the fines.

The other thing is how the work is done. I'd want a privatized collection to still be as ecologically responsible as how the city handles it. Corporations do have a history of cutting corners, especially on environmental concerns. So while the city may save several millions, do we factor in cost of a watchdog service to make sure the company is doing everything up to spec? How about a city complaint line that has to forward all the calls for poor service to the company? (because the people will call the city, not some company when their garbage isn't picked up). Point is there is hidden costs.

Not that i have a huge problem with privatization if there is substantial savings. In most cities it seems to work, and to be honest the last strike rubbed most of the city the wrong way so in a sense the union has it coming. But i don't mind having a smaller city force still under pay if for nothing else to be a check on the companies contracted to do the work, so we always have a comparison to the quality and cost of the work done in house.

As for Ford selling city assets....it's probably not a great idea. The 407 sure hasn't worked out very well for ontario...


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> yes but Lastman was the "putz" who signed off on it. The majority of workers on this clause are still from his original deal, ergo it's his "legacy", not Miller's.


A shared legacy of foolishness.



i-rui said:


> I live in etobicoke. The privatized collection for the most part is good, but they also constantly leave bins all over the street. Yard waste collection is atrocious as they don't even try to empty the leaves out of my bins and get most of it on the street. (not sure if yard waste is privatized).


So exactly like the city service, but cheaper!



i-rui said:


> As for Ford selling city assets....it's probably not a great idea. The 407 sure hasn't worked out very well for ontario...


For whatever reason, the province sold it at a price far below market value. Obviously some thought needs to go into the price.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> For whatever reason, the province sold it at a price far below market value. Obviously some thought needs to go into the price.


yet that never happens.

But the point is, he can't balance the budget so he's resorting to a temporary fix. That'll work maybe for a couple years. Then, we'll see how well things go, and just how much money we're gonna save.

4 years from now, it'll be interesting to see how things went down.


----------



## Lawrence

*Ford declares war on Wall Art in Toronto*

That'll be a very sad day,
What a guy, The war on Art begins for Ford.

Maybe it stems from Toronto not having an Art Gallery,
Is he ashamed that this is cheaper than admission to the A.G.O.
Street Art has always been Toronto's low budget Art gallery.

I've always been a firm supporter of wall art,
He'd better keep his grubby hands off our walls.
Quick, Someone hide the Cameron House.

Someone call Rick Mercer and tell him they are going
to erase his broadcasting studio backdrop.

Source of news on Ford:
Street Art Battle article in NOW


----------



## whatiwant

dolawren said:


> That'll be a very sad day,
> What a guy, The war on Art begins for Ford.
> 
> Maybe it stems from Toronto not having an Art Gallery,
> Is he ashamed that this is cheaper than admission to the A.G.O.
> Street Art has always been Toronto's low budget Art gallery.
> 
> I've always been a firm supporter of wall art,
> He'd better keep his grubby hands off our walls.
> Quick, Someone hide the Cameron House.
> 
> Someone call Rick Mercer and tell him they are going
> to erase his broadcasting studio backdrop.
> 
> Source of news on Ford:
> Street Art Battle article in NOW


Don't forget that he has now threatened to "unleash Ford Nation" on Dalt if he doesn't pony up more money for the city... wait, wasn't he going to make a ton of cuts in order to make this sort of begging disappear? 

Well, at least I've got an extra 60bucks for... something... this year.


----------



## Lawrence

jawknee said:


> Don't forget that he has now threatened to "unleash Ford Nation" on Dalt if he doesn't pony up more money for the city... wait, wasn't he going to make a ton of cuts in order to make this sort of begging disappear?
> 
> Well, at least I've got an extra 60bucks for... something... this year.


I think the Toronto housing recipient at the latest TCHC meeting said it best,
"We wanted a Cadillac for Toronto, But ended up with a Ford instead"


----------



## groovetube

jabba the ford finds out them figures are pesky suckers.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> jabba the ford finds out them figures are pesky suckers.


Does this mean there's still gravy to get got?!


----------



## groovetube

apparently, he thought the province might help pour some that he ate


----------



## Lawrence

Maybe Ford wants to clean up Toronto for the next "Doors Open"
It'll be his first as Mayor.

I hope that his clean up crew accidentally rubs out all those commissioned murals as well,
Wouldn't that be a funny thing to happen, I'd just love to see that happen.
All the "Sewing Circle Art" rubbed out from the great walls of Toronto.


----------



## da_jonesy

Seriously, it feels like Batman Returns and someone has elected the Penguin Mayor of Toronto.


----------



## Lawrence

Just when you thought Case Ootes was gone,
Think again, He's back as the next possible leader of the previously failed TCHC

Source:
Ford seeks to replace TCHC board with Case Ootes


----------



## whatiwant

Hey a least I got 60 extra bucks this year! 30 of which I'll put toward the recent #FORDNATION cost increase for a marriage license...


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> Hey a least I got 60 extra bucks this year! 30 of which I'll put toward the recent #FORDNATION cost increase for a marriage license...


Unless you marry frequently, you're way ahead--since the car needs to be licensed each year.


----------



## Sonal

I've never been much of a Ford fan, but what was dug up on TCH is pretty ugly.

Honestly, they are some of the worst landlords in the city, and I have seen some pretty terrible landlords.


----------



## Lawrence

Sonal said:


> I've never been much of a Ford fan, but what was dug up on TCH is pretty ugly.
> 
> Honestly, they are some of the worst landlords in the city, and I have seen some pretty terrible landlords.


Yes they are, But so are the City Officials.

Back in 1984 when I applied for City housing in the Beaches,
I found out that there were city officials living in subsidized housing.

That same housing had a waiting list to get into.
After a year of waiting on their list they said they lost my file and I had to reapply.

They are all corrupt, I'm glad they are gone, Now to get rid of Ford and his cronies too,
It's only a matter of time before he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar.


----------



## Macfury

dolawren said:


> Yes they are, But so are the City Officials.
> 
> Back in 1984 when I applied for City housing in the Beaches,
> I found out that there were city officials living in subsidized housing.


Jack Layton and Olivia Chow were living in Toronto Co-op housing for years until they were driven out because--clearly--they were way above the income exemption.


----------



## whatiwant

dolawren said:


> It's only a matter of time before he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar.


nyuk nyuk nyuk


----------



## adagio

dolawren said:


> They are all corrupt, I'm glad they are gone, Now to get rid of Ford and his cronies too,
> It's only a matter of time before he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar.


Will you be upset if he doesn't?


----------



## Lawrence

adagio said:


> Will you be upset if he doesn't?


I'd certainly be surprised.


----------



## groovetube

the same was said about the federal cons, who rode the wave of "we're goodys". Now we're finding out different.

Ater hearing things like donating salaries etc etc, my first thought was, people don't do this sort of stuff, for nothing.


----------



## Lawrence

Back to local Toronto news...
Mayor Ford gears up to rub out Rick Mercer's broadcasting studio backdrop.


----------



## Macfury

Oh, dear heaven! Mercer's backdrop???!!!


----------



## Max

I wonder if Ford really does believe all that claptrap he's spouted about ridding the city of graffiti.

Nawwww. He's just playing politics.


----------



## Macfury

Personally, this one doesn't play either way with me. It's dead neutral.


----------



## i-rui

it's actually a huge waste of money.

WAY TO GO FORD!


----------



## Ottawaman

Ford team fills $100,000-a-year job without candidate search



> As the new president and CEO of Toronto Transit Infrastructure Ltd., Dr. Chong, a dentist and former city councillor who collects a municipal pension, will earn the equivalent of a $100,000-a-year salary to prepare two applications to a federal public-private partnership fund for financial aid for Mr. Ford’s Sheppard subway plan.
> 
> The first, due in June, will be a request for $250,000 for engineering and environmental studies. The second, for an unspecified amount that could become available later in the summer, would go towards the project itself.
> 
> Dr. Chong, who’s been on the job for two weeks and will fill the role on an interim basis, will also have a $500,000 budget provided by the city and the TTC to hire planners, economists and engineers as he builds a business plan to assess the viability of a $4.2-billion, privately operated subway.
> 
> Citing preliminary feedback from various financial institutions, he said it is possible, though not probable, that the expert studies will conclude the project won’t fly. “We wouldn’t have embarked on this if they didn’t have a sense that it would have a positive result,” he said.
> 
> He said Toronto Transit Infrastructure Ltd. is unlikely to make the business case public before it is submitted to the federal government.
> 
> Dr. Chong is the third high-profile member of Mr. Ford’s transition team to find paid positions in the mayor’s administration; the others include Case Ootes, now the sole board member of the Toronto Community Housing board, and Amir Remtulla, Mr. Ford’s chief of staff.
> 
> Some critics characterized Dr. Chong’s appointment, orchestrated by the mayor’s office and approved by TTC commissioners Doug Ford and Norm Kelly, as a departure from the TTC’s standard approach to hiring individuals for senior posts.



" the third high-profile member of Mr. Ford’s transition team to find paid positions in the mayor’s administration" 

Something about gravy and trains?


----------



## Macfury

JFK hired his brother to be Attorney General.


----------



## Ottawaman

I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Rob Ford, you're no Jack Kennedy. 

Sorry Dr. G.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> JFK hired his brother to be Attorney General.


did he campaign promising to end this sort of thing?

doncha love it when the righteous right start screaming fraud! Patronage! gravy train! and then they turn around and do it even worse?

Seems to be a winning formula though. Wonder why.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> did he campaign promising to end this sort of thing?


In all fairness, groovetube, what could Ford do about something that happened in the 1960s?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> In all fairness, groovetube, what could Ford do about something that happened in the 1960s?


The 60s made Ford hand off a 100k job like that?

Man. That must have soooome 'cid.


----------



## i-rui

gravy train time machine.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ottawaman said:


> I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Rob Ford, you're no Jack Kennedy.
> 
> Sorry Dr. G.


No need to apologize, O-man. I'm not Lloyd Bentsen, and I am not running for VP. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## whatiwant

i-rui said:


> gravy train time machine.


Does anyone know where that there gravy train was stopped? I need some of that brown gold.


----------



## Max

I love this little piece 'o art.* Justice!*


----------



## whatiwant

Hearing to decide audit of Toronto mayor's election expenses deferred until next week - The Globe and Mail

Mayor's calendar shows few appointments - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Ford?s approval rating at 70 per cent, poll finds - thestar.com


----------



## adagio

Some folks just don't get it. Just like Iggy and the Liberals didn't get it. The electorate doesn't give a damn about scandals. They care about results and how policies affect them and their pocket book.


----------



## Max

Oh, sure. I mean, everyone was delighted with Adscam. Sure, no one cares.


----------



## Sonal

Scandal usually has a way of dying out.... you get currency out of a scandal if it's well-timed... Adscam was well-timed.


----------



## adagio

Adscam was about misuse of taxpayer's money. (see my comment about pocket book). How many really care about how much Ford spent of his OWN money? Other than a few folks here who didn't vote for him anyway, I gather not many.


----------



## i-rui

who cares about rules & laws!?!?


----------



## adagio

i-rui said:


> who cares about rules & laws!?!?


I think you'd be amazed how few do.


----------



## adagio

Just read this article in the G&M which ties in with what I was trying to say. The electorate assumes politicians are crooked and accepts there are shenanigans no matter which party it is. There has been so much finger pointing at each other the voters have in effect tuned it out. This applies at all levels of government. Opposition should be wary of digging up scandal. It seems to have the opposite desired effect. Look at the municipal election. The Toronto Star threw everything it had at Ford. Every single tidbit of dirt was thrown at him. It was over the top bias. The G&M wasn't much better. They continue to paint Ford as bad. What happens? His popularity goes up, not down. If an election were held today he would have MORE votes, not less. 

Here's a quote from today's G&M analysis about the federal election. 

"Meanwhile, Mr. Ignatieff’s reiteration of the ethical issues that dogged the minority Conservative government appears to have fallen largely on deaf ears. Many of the study’s participants noted that any party could point a similar finger at any other contender." 


Public tired of games


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Oh, sure. I mean, everyone was delighted with Adscam. Sure, no one cares.


ha ha ha . I think you had a silencer on for this one 

70% eh? Well, miller had 80% at this point, so ford sucks I guess. 

Well he'll be popular after he spends triple the amount to put trains underground instead of above, the downtown transit which is currently busting at the seams really falls apart in 4 to 8 years when not much was done at all, and the city is broke from all that subway building particularly extending the one no one takes now anyway. On and it took years longer to build. and of course, as with EVERYTHING, it's cost, even more.

property taxes go up, ford approval rating, go down.

In other news, water is wet, and the sun is hot.


----------



## adagio

GT, you could very well be right. Ford's popularity hinges on what the municipal economy is like but you missed my point. No one gives a rats arse about scandals unless it costs them personally.


----------



## Max

I believe Ford expects great things from the Feds, now that they are ideologically far more harmonious in their views and desires. In his view, he has done some considerable work in delivering 905 voters to HarperCo and and he rightly expects payback for his efforts. He will get some of the things he wants, but not all of it. Harper has a lot on his plate and servicing the COTU will take place within the larger framework of servicing the country - especially his power base in the West and Ontario as a whole, not just the big old COTU.

__________________________________________________

I think Sonal's view is more to the point. The public almost always harbours a latent taste for scandal, but it's a junk food thing - a lot of binge and purge. Scandals get old very quickly and fresh ones are. well, fresh. What we call 'scandals' are often the work of various media interest mechanisms designed to make one group look good while elevating some other special interest. In other words, to a certain degree such things are manufactured for public consumption.

__________________________________________________

As for Mayor Ford himself, I think the best we can hope for is that the man grows more capable and learns his lessons well... that he will moderate his positions somewhat and resort less to bluster. I believe a certain Stephen Harper can serve as a mentor in this regard.

Don't know if Ford is ultimately up to the task, but hey - we got time on our hands.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> ha ha ha . I think you had a silencer on for this one
> 
> 70% eh? Well, miller had 80% at this point, so ford sucks I guess.
> 
> Well he'll be popular after he spends triple the amount to put trains underground instead of above, the downtown transit which is currently busting at the seams really falls apart in 4 to 8 years when not much was done at all, and the city is broke from all that subway building particularly extending the one no one takes now anyway. On and it took years longer to build. and of course, as with EVERYTHING, it's cost, even more.
> 
> property taxes go up, ford approval rating, go down.
> 
> In other news, water is wet, and the sun is hot.


too bad he couldn't stop the police 'gravy train' :

Ford's costly police deal a 'rookie mistake,' critics say - thestar.com

the irony is now that he's made the TTC an essential service they'll be looking for a similar raise. The meathead may just have cost the city $50+ million a year.


----------



## Max

Indeed... the Ford way looks to become a real financial boondoggle for a city which can ill-afford one.


----------



## whatiwant

i-rui said:


> too bad he couldn't stop the police 'gravy train' :
> 
> Ford's costly police deal a 'rookie mistake,' critics say - thestar.com
> 
> the irony is now that he's made the TTC an essential service they'll be looking for a similar raise. The meathead may just have cost the city $50+ million a year.


Ouch, now we'll need a new hero to stop the coffee'n'doughnuts train


----------



## i-rui

more gravy for the boys in blue :

Penny-pinching Doug Ford defends $5.2 million police paid duty perk - thestar.com


----------



## whatiwant

i-rui said:


> more gravy for the boys in blue :
> 
> Penny-pinching Doug Ford defends $5.2 million police paid duty perk - thestar.com


$65/hr That is some sweet coin.


----------



## i-rui

Ford ended the "war on cars" only to begin the "war on drivers" :

Road toll ?reality check? stirs up Toronto council - thestar.com

it's always a shame when that pesky thing called reality has to crash into electoral promises based on a catch phrase.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Ford ended the "war on cars" only to begin the "war on drivers" :
> 
> Road toll ?reality check? stirs up Toronto council - thestar.com
> 
> it's always a shame when that pesky thing called reality has to crash into electoral promises based on a catch phrase.


That was Gordon Chong's idea, not Ford's. Today Ford reiterated that no existing road would face toll under his watch.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/05/30/ford-camp-slams-brakes-on-toll-talk


----------



## i-rui

so no-go on the subway?

this is where reality crashes into everything Ford campaigned on. Subways are great, everyone rather have them, but they cost money. lots of it. At some point basic math has to come into the equation and people realize someone has to pay.

(Not that i care about the sheppard line. If the choice is between tolls that will gridlock the entire city or a subway line extension in the east end that will have minimal impact, then the choice is clear)


----------



## Macfury

I would also choose to nix the eastern subway. I hope that will be the decision if the funding can't be lined up.


----------



## groovetube

Next stop: ‘Spadina-McDonald’s’ station? - The Globe and Mail

Someone stop these clowns. Seriously, these idiots shrieked to high heaven about the virtues of slashing the 60 dollar reg fee.

Now they're chasing their tails looking desperately for revenue. Sorry boys, you're just gonna have to start slashing and burning. And then face the electorate then.

Then see what a great idea cutting revenue and coming up with these hairbrained spending plans was.


----------



## i-rui

Gravy Train™


----------



## adagio

I couldn't care less what name they add to the station as long as the original name remains as well. If the city can grab some corporate bucks then I say go for it.


----------



## Macfury

This sounds like a great idea. How is it a gravy train?


----------



## groovetube

so when the, er, 'gravy train' of name grabbing ends, what happens next?

This is the problem with the conservative way of thinking. It just isn't sustainable long term. At all.

Enjoy yer 60 bucks y'all. 

pfffft.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> so when the, er, 'gravy train' of name grabbing ends, what happens next?
> 
> This is the problem with the conservative way of thinking. It just isn't sustainable long term. At all.
> 
> Enjoy yer 60 bucks y'all.
> 
> pfffft.


I think you misread my question. We weren't talking about Ford keeping his promise of rescinding the unfair vehicle registration tax. We were talking about selling naming rights. It isn't a "gravy train" which implies that the money is being stolen by the parties involved.

The naming rights are not simply sold for all times. They represent a consistent stream of income. What happens next? What happens next is that even more money comes in. Money for which the taxpayer is not shaken down.

Any more questions?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> This sounds like a great idea. How is it a gravy train?


you're missing the ™ at the end of 'Gravy Train'.....as in Rob & Doug ford could buy the name rights for the entire TTC and rename it Gravy Train™. Since it basically won them the election, they may want to keep it at the forefront since they certainly haven't been able to uncover the huge pubic spending waste they campaigned on recovering to the public's coffers.


----------



## groovetube

macfury seems quite happy to support the fleecing in another form. Don't burst his bubble.


----------



## Lawrence

I find it funny that the Mayor is not able to af"Ford" proper housing for the poor,
Yet he and his council think they can Af"Ford" a Hockey arena for 40 million dollars.

Well...One that is in debt for 40 million dollars that is.

Nice guy...

Let's impeach him.


----------



## kps

Lawrence said:


> I find it funny that the Mayor is not able to af"Ford" proper housing for the poor,
> Yet he and his council think they can Af"Ford" a Hockey arena for 40 million dollars.
> 
> Nice guy...
> 
> Let's impeach him.


Why are you spreading pure BS?

It was the previous administration that guaranteed the loan to the Etobicoke Lions Club to build and run the arena. Stupidity and inexperience on the part of the service club running of the facility resulted in leaving the city on the hook for 37million out of 43 million.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> This sounds like a great idea. How is it a gravy train?


I agree. Make the name holder also responsible for the cleanliness of the station and any public facilities therein. If they fail they lose the naming rights. Everyone knows the TTC maintenance people can't keep the stations clean.


----------



## Lawrence

kps said:


> Why are you spreading pure BS?
> 
> It was the previous administration that guaranteed the loan to the Etobicoke Lions Club to build and run the arena. Stupidity and inexperience on the part of the service club running of the facility resulted in leaving the city on the hook for 37million out of 43 million.


Yet it's in the papers, Stressing that council is considering it.
The sale of public housing at the same time is just too well timed.

Steal from peter to pay paul?

We know the Mayor is sporty.

Can he resist this tempting hook?


----------



## kps

Lawrence said:


> Yet it's in the papers, Stressing that council is considering it.
> The sale of public housing at the same time is just too well timed.
> 
> Steal from peter to pay paul?
> 
> We know the Mayor is sporty.
> 
> Can he resist this tempting hook?


If you seriously care for the poor, then you should support this initiative. There are 77,000 on a waiting list for social housing, there's a 650 million repair backlog in inhabitable units in multi unit dwellings (apartment buildings). How come Miller the socialist didn't do anything about this?

The city owns 900 single unit dwellings in the form of houses, many of which are boarded up and inhabitable due to needed repairs. It costs a lot more to fix and maintain single unit dwellings than multi-unit dwellings on a unit per unit bases...none of which is being done.

The city plan is to raise more than $400 million with the sale of these single unit dwellings so they can repair the vacant units in multi-unit dwellings and have some of those 77,000 waiting get a place to live.


----------



## groovetube

nothing being done? There's a lot of nothing being done in regent park for starters.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> The city plan is to raise more than $400 million with the sale of these single unit dwellings so they can repair the vacant units in multi-unit dwellings and have some of those 77,000 waiting get a place to live.


If one supports public housing then this makes perfect sense. The dilapidated house has no value, but the property does. Why should the money be tied up in the property underneath an uninhabitable single family residence, when the money could support multiple units in a multi-family dwelling?

Anybody who craps on this plan is doing so only because they can't abide seeing Ford do a better job of running social assistance programs than Miller.


----------



## groovetube

but Ford hasn't done a damn thing. Or, are we going to be treated with yet more atom smasher presumptions.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> but Ford hasn't done a damn thing. Or, are we going to be treated with yet more atom smasher presumptions.


If he hasn't done anything with social housing yet, why are y'all so angry then? Nothing to see here folks--same as David Miller's plan.


----------



## Sonal

Toronto Community Housing was a mess, and frankly it's entirely stupid of them to hang on to unliveable housing that they cannot afford to repair... particularly single-family housing in a time when city planning supports increasing density. Their rules (as I recall) were that they cannot sell the condemned housing until they replaced it with new and similar housing... but they could not afford to repair, much less buy. It's a rule that did not make sense.

Sell off the condemned buildings at market value and start repairing. It's well-known that Toronto Community Housing has buildings in some of the worst repair records in the city. 

Frankly, I am not in favour of the city owning the buildings at all.... they don't do a good job. Let the create long-term agreements with private landlords to for the city to lease all units in a building and let the city rent/subsidize to whomever they see fit. A lot of private landlords would be very happy to get guaranteed one check every month from the city to cover all units in the building, the lower-income tenants can use the clout of the City to advocate for any repair issues... everyone is happy. 

There is a huge need for socialized housing in the city of Toronto, and from what I can tell, city planning is so locked into old ways of doing things that they have missed out or misused so many opportunities take advantage of the developers building condos to get new housing. It's like arguing with a brick wall.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> nothing being done? There's a lot of nothing being done in regent park for starters.



They've taken a huge section of it apart and replaced it with mixed income housing, including social housing. Have you been asleep?


----------



## groovetube

no, I live down here and drive by it all the time. Are you asleep? Or just busy smashing atoms...


----------



## adagio

Sonal, wonderful reply. You're bang on with your assessment of the problem of public housing. The city currently has hundreds of unusable homes and also have many of them located on prime properties such as at the Beach. I haven't understood the mindset at city hall for years. I don't get why anybody would be against plans of selling these properties and using that money to renovate some high density dwellings so more poor can get some subsidized housing. Only those on an anti Ford rant for any reason would think this is a bad plan. It makes so much sense you have to wonder why it hasn't already been done. So many things that have been done in the past need to be examined and see if another approach would be better. Think outside the box instead of maintaining the status quo.


----------



## groovetube

however, the cynic in me, now call me crazy, I see a mayor who has painted himself into a corner and is desperately needing some revenue for budget shortfalls. So, I can just see it... "yeah, tell the unwashed doofuses we're gonna do something good for the poor.... pfffft. They won't know or care in the end really."

Yeah, that's probably a little closer to the truth.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> however, the cynic in me, now call me crazy, I see a mayor who has painted himself into a corner and is desperately needing some revenue for budget shortfalls. So, I can just see it... "yeah, tell the unwashed doofuses we're gonna do something good for the poor.... pfffft. They won't know or care in the end really."
> 
> Yeah, that's probably a little closer to the truth.


This rant is getting close to" Get off my lawn!"

Seriously--you haven't seen any of the massive redevelopment at Regent Park? It's been in all of the newspapers for the past three years. Lots of construction equipment?


----------



## groovetube

I think macfury, I was the one who brought that to your attention.


----------



## Macfury

'round and round ya go, eh groove? Pffft!


----------



## Sonal

I didn't vote for Ford and I still think he's a blowhard, but the problems in Toronto Community Housing are not Ford's problems.

My two favourite stories of lost opportunities for the city, one from observation and one from experience:

Observation: Minto built 2 50-story condo towers at Yonge & Eglinton. At the same time, Minto built a high-rise rental tower in the same area. (I lived next to the construction site, and one of the buildings I manage is in that area.) As Minto does not build rental, I assume that this was part of a deal for them to get their condo towers built. Great deal, since there's almost no new rental being built. Terrible deal in that the City did not (and could have) stipulated that the rent there be affordable, or at least median rent in the area... instead, it's a luxury rental building. Helps no one. Missed opportunity.

Another from experience: We had a rental townhouse complex in Scarborough. 27 of those townhouses front onto the street. We wanted to covert them to freehold and sell them to the tenants--we would credit them some of their rent as their downpayment, and their carrying costs (mortgage and taxes) would be cheaper than their rent. We had letters of support from the tenants, since they would be able to own instead of always renting. City turned us down, citing preservation of rental stock. They liked everything we had to say, agreed it would be great for the tenants, and then said "preservation of rental stock". We offered to replace the rental stock, found a site not far away, and determined that we could put 60 stacked rental townhouses--not good enough, since it would not be identical to the existing 30 year old townhouses. My dad's assessment of the situation: by not allowing renters to turn into owners, the city wants to keep poor people poor. Again, they could have had affordable ownership housing, affordable rental housing, and instead they chose the status quo.

I also have a story in progress about how the City is blocking us from severing land from an apartment complex (that complex sits on 7 acres, most of which is unused) which we will sell to Habitat for Humanity so that they can build affordable housing, but we're still working on getting that one sorted out. But they turned down Habitat for freaking Humanity?!?!? Are you kidding me?

Quite honestly, this is not Ford's doing... under a Ford government, you would think that we would be able to do all of this since it results in developers (us) making money... and the first two stories are pre-Ford anyway.

(And, as an interesting anecdote which is not at all relevant to the above, I actually was at a dinner where Rob Ford was an honoured guest on Monday night... he shook my hand and gave me his business card... Mike Harris was there too. I think I was the only person in the room that did not vote for either of them and was not singing both of their praises. Very odd experience.)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> My dad's assessment of the situation: by not allowing renters to turn into owners, the city wants to keep poor people poor.


Bingo. Clients, rather than cittizens.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I didn't vote for Ford and I still think he's a blowhard, but the problems in Toronto Community Housing are not Ford's problems....


I don't disagree, and I wouldn't suggest that it is.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> 'round and round ya go, eh groove? Pffft!


you just keep on testifying there brother.


----------



## adagio

I have personally spoken with Rob Ford twice, once before the election and once since. Yes, he does return phone calls. I found him personable and professional. My local councillor on the other hand, Mark Grimes is a twit. He doesn't even respond to e-mails never mind actually calling someone. He's really good at glad handing at community barbecues before elections though.


----------



## groovetube

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






I find him, entertaining, if not a bit pathetic to be honest.


----------



## Sonal

adagio said:


> I have personally spoken with Rob Ford twice, once before the election and once since. Yes, he does return phone calls.


Friend of mine found that our pre-election, when he called up Rob Ford's office to leave a voice mail to ask him (paraphrasing) why he's such a tool... then Rob Ford called back to him what it was that he wished to discuss.


----------



## Lawrence

Let the tunneling begin...


----------



## i-rui

just when you think he couldn't get any dumber, he rejects free nurses from the province :

Free nurses? No thanks, says Mayor Rob Ford - Healthzone.ca


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> just when you think he couldn't get any dumber, he rejects free nurses from the province.


I agree with his decision. If the salaries were to be paid directly by the province as provincial hirees, sure. However, the province wants the city to hire them, then give the city grants to cover the salary. I've seen how difficult it is for the city to get rid of people once they're hired. That funding will stop one day--perhaps as early as after the election--leaving the city with the legacy costs of firing/laying off two employees.


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> just when you think he couldn't get any dumber, he rejects free nurses from the province :
> 
> Free nurses? No thanks, says Mayor Rob Ford - Healthzone.ca


*facepalm*


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I agree with his decision. If the salaries were to be paid directly by the province as provincial hirees, sure. However, the province wants the city to hire them, then give the city grants to cover the salary. I've seen how difficult it is for the city to get rid of people once they're hired. That funding will stop one day--perhaps as early as after the election--leaving the city with the *legacy costs of firing/laying off two employees.*


nonsense.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> nonsense.


This is your rebuttal? Maybe that works in your household. Not here.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I agree with his decision. If the salaries were to be paid directly by the province as provincial hirees, sure. However, the province wants the city to hire them, then give the city grants to cover the salary. I've seen how difficult it is for the city to get rid of people once they're hired. That funding will stop one day--perhaps as early as after the election--leaving the city with the legacy costs of firing/laying off two employees.


So don't hire them as employees, but as independent contractors, with their contract expiring at the end of the grant, and renewal contingent on receiving further grants.

Then when the province cancels the grant, Mayor Ford (or whoever) can just say "Well I would love to keep them, but those fatcats at Queen's Park, yadah, yadah, yadah..."


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> This is your rebuttal? Maybe that works in your household. Not here.


Absolutely no different than yours. Whatsoever. Guess that flew right over you. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Absolutely no different than yours. Whatsoever. Guess that flew right over you. :clap:


Always funny to see a guy applauding himself!


----------



## i-rui

Sonal said:


> So don't hire them as employees, but as independent contractors, with their contract expiring at the end of the grant, and renewal contingent on receiving further grants.
> 
> Then when the province cancels the grant, Mayor Ford (or whoever) can just say "Well I would love to keep them, but those fatcats at Queen's Park, yadah, yadah, yadah..."


yep. from the article :



> Filion called Ford’s fear “nonsense.” The nurses would simply cease their work if the provincial funding ever expired, he said.
> 
> “It’s a bizarre situation, it’s completely unprecedented, and I can only assume it’s based on one of two things: complete ignorance of the facts of the situation, or a deliberate case of using ideology to trample on the most vulnerable in society,” Filion said.


----------



## Macfury

At worst, once the details are fully disclosed, Ford just saved the province a couple hundred thousand.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Always funny to see a guy applauding himself!


actually, if you look closer, I was applauding that you missed the irony.

brainless blanket post responded to by an equally brainless post.

More news at 11.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> At worst, once the details are fully disclosed, Ford just saved the province a couple hundred thousand.


and the lack of medical services in some sectors leading to further problems costing the province even more money in the healthcare system.

more libertarian math-o-matics at work!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> At worst, once the details are fully disclosed, Ford just saved the province a couple hundred thousand.


As Mayor of Toronto, his duty is to serve the City of Toronto, not save the province money.

It's not like the province is going to say, oh, well since Mayor Ford saved us a couple hundred grand in nurses, we'll just give him a little extra for roads, because it's not like that money was earmarked or anything.


----------



## Lawrence

I hear the city just bought a huge homeless shelter,
The bonus is that it comes with 4 skating rinks.

That Ford is such a nice guy.


----------



## Macfury

Ford says: 


> “If they want to fully fund it, guaranteed for the term of the contract or the length of the time they are working at City Hall and they are going to pay for it, fine."


----------



## kps

Nothing is free....

Good for Ford for not falling for McGuinty's bs play. Remember how Dalton [email protected]#& Miller?


----------



## groovetube

anyone with details? Or are we just yakking.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> anyone with details? Or are we just yakking.


Those are the details. Ford says he wants a guarantee, or the deal is off. Good on him.


----------



## groovetube

one wasn't given? The province didn't offer to pay the length of the contract? Were they to be hired only on contract? What?

Where are the details? Surely you don't fall for politicking grandstanding in the news.

naw not you...


----------



## i-rui

Ford wanted the guarantee on paper, signed by McGuinty, in his own blood!!!

p.s. stop the gravy train!!


----------



## Sonal

Doug Ford is suggesting he may attend the Pride Parade, and will try to drag Rob back with him.

Ford to skip Pride parade, critics say it sends the wrong message - thestar.com


----------



## adagio

I'd skip the parade too if I had a cottage to go to. It's Canada Day long weekend for cripes sakes. Long weekends are precious and not so long ago I spent every single one up north. If I could flee the city now I would. I hope Ford doesn't cave to the whining.


----------



## Macfury

adagio said:


> I'd skip the parade too if I had a cottage to go to. It's Canada Day long weekend for cripes sakes. Long weekends are precious and not so long ago I spent every single one up north. If I could flee the city now I would. I hope Ford doesn't cave to the whining.


I've seen the Parade too. I've never been so bored. In November you know that there's at least a pay-off for sitting through the whole thing when Santa show up.


----------



## groovetube

adagio said:


> I'd skip the parade too if I had a cottage to go to. It's Canada Day long weekend for cripes sakes. Long weekends are precious and not so long ago I spent every single one up north. If I could flee the city now I would. I hope Ford doesn't cave to the whining.


well I guess that depends if you can deal with being in public office as the mayor. If you can't give up some weekends at the cottage to attend important functions, well perhaps it's time to rethink your choice of jobs. Saying it's boring is just BS, how many public functions do you have to attend as mayor that can be said to be boring? I bet lots!

And anyone who's really attended gay pride, wouldn't say it's boring.


----------



## i-rui

adagio said:


> I'd skip the parade too if I had a cottage to go to. It's Canada Day long weekend for cripes sakes. Long weekends are precious and not so long ago I spent every single one up north. If I could flee the city now I would. I hope Ford doesn't cave to the whining.


i don't have a problem with him not being at the parade if he legitimately is going to be at a pre-planned vacation with family.

but..... :



> Ford’s office later confirmed the mayor has, at the moment, no plans to attend any of the 10 days of Pride events, and no designate at the parade. Deputy Mayor Doug Holyday said he has no plans to attend.


he can't attend *any* event over the 10 days? he's the mayor of the city. There are certain duties associated with mayor, and if he can't find the time to show up for even *one* event of the city's biggest festival, then he probably shouldn't be mayor.

but it's not surprising considering that he's on record saying some pretty ignorant things about HIV and the gay community.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> And anyone who's really attended gay pride, wouldn't say it's boring.


I've attended. Dishwater dull.


----------



## groovetube

perhaps you were the sour puss on the fringe somewhere who couldn't bring himself to smile and join in the obvious fun and celebration that pretty much everyone there enjoys.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> perhaps you were the sour puss on the fringe somewhere who couldn't bring himself to smile and join in the obvious fun and celebration that pretty much everyone there enjoys.


Some people like their pleasures reallllllly simple. Sort of tribal. Perhaps this is you.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Some people like their pleasures reallllllly simple. Sort of tribal. Perhaps this is you.


you're zoning out again.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you're zoning out again.


I zoned right in on that one.


----------



## Lawrence

Looks like the Mayor would rather have fun at the cottage,
Instead of doing his Mayoral duties in Toronto like all the Mayors previous to him did.
(Well, Since amalgamation anyways, You know, That P.C. Mike Harris thing)

I wonder if his cottage is in Clement's riding.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Looks like the Mayor would rather have fun at the cottage,
> Instead of doing his Mayoral duties in Toronto like all the Mayors previous to him did.
> (Well, Since amalgamation anyways, You know, That P.C. Mike Harris thing)


He'll probably wind up pandering to them in some way.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> He'll probably wind up pandering to them in some way.


Well, I hope he can swim,
Has all his user fee's paid up for swim classes.

God knows, Less fortunate people can't seem to be able to afford to learn how to swim.
Although, Ford probably never needed to learn how to swim, He's unsinkable.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Well, I hope he can swim,
> Has all his user fee's paid up for swim classes.


Huh? There have always been user's fee for swim classes.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Huh? There have always been user's fee for swim classes.


Not back when I was a child,
Swim classes were free.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Not back when I was a child,
> Swim classes were free.


That must have been a longgggg time ago. We paid when I was a kid, in several cities.


----------



## groovetube

ah user fees. The hidden "non tax" the conservatives like. Or simply claw back the services but you still pay the same for them.

I hear fighting a parking ticket will cost you if you lose. So think twice about fighting that parking ticket dammit! Pay your user... er fine.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> That must have been a longgggg time ago. We paid when I was a kid, in several cities.


So you are just a young one then,
So you see, Time changes and so do values.

User fees don't save lives,
They destroy more than they provide.

Had those children had free swim classes,
Then perhaps they may never have drowned.

I'd pay more taxes to save the lives of the poor that can't afford user fees.


----------



## adagio

I never had free swim classes and neither did my daughter. Only the original city of Toronto had free classes. It's simply amazing that my kid is an excellent swimmer while never attending a swim class. Most people I know learned to swim in the lake with their moms/dads teaching them. 

Oh, I forgot... this a nanny state now where parents no longer have to worry about parental duties.


----------



## groovetube

nanny state "now"????

I had free swimming when I was kid, pretty long time ago. Used to go myself with friends. Was it a nanny state then too?


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> nanny state "now"????
> 
> I had free swimming when I was kid, pretty long time ago. Used to go myself with friends. Was it a nanny state then too?


I had a nanny when I was in New York city as a child,
I think she was a rental though, Parents dropped me off at the zoo in central park.

No nannies in Toronto though,
I grew up in the rough part of town.

It was called "Midtown Toronto" back then that was "Bathurst and Bloor"

We even had a milk wagon that delivered milk everyday,
The horse used to lean over our fence to eat the grass, Made the mesh fence bend over.


----------



## groovetube

you had milk DELIVERED???

Man you lived in a NANNY state my friend!!! I have to go to the store and get mine!!!


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> you had milk DELIVERED???
> 
> Man you lived in a NANNY state my friend!!! I have to go to the store and get mine!!!


One of my many brother-in-laws worked at Silverwoods at Bathurst and Dupont in the 60's as a delivery driver. He told me they had one old timer still delivering with a horse and wagon till he retired as he never had a license. There's a good chance that was the guy delivering milk to Lawrence at Bathurst and Bloor.


----------



## kps

Considering how much Rob Ford is loved by the gay community, they're making an awfully big deal about it. LOL

He should raise the flag on Monday and head for the cottage Fri afternoon.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> you had milk DELIVERED???
> 
> Man you lived in a NANNY state my friend!!! I have to go to the store and get mine!!!


We even had a bread wagon, Also a fruit wagon that we would see pass by, But never stop,
Can never forget the junk man wagon, I miss hearing his song, Bring out your junk!!!

I even remember throwing hockey stick cut offs into the chestnut tree's to get chestnuts,
That's so that we could take an old shoe lace,
Thread it through a good sized chestnut and play a good game of "Conkers"

Don't play that game nowadays I bet,
Don't see a good shiner that's made it through the championships of the schoolyards.

Never mind the "Top Fights" we use to have,
Those were the tops that you spun off your hand with a rope of thread.

Not those stupid "Whizzers" that came out later and destroyed the game.

Then along came the Subway, It changed everything,
They pulled up the streetcar tracks on Bloor street and we could no longer go to see
the baseball games at Christie Pit's by streetcar anymore.

We ended up walking to Christie Pit's after that.

Loved that place, Loved the merry go round that was suspended on a pole and used
push and pull bars to make it swing in a circle, Far too dangerous to be in a modern playground nowadays.


----------



## Lawrence

kps said:


> One of my many brother-in-laws worked at Silverwoods at Bathurst and Dupont in the 60's as a delivery driver. He told me they had one old timer still delivering with a horse and wagon till he retired as he never had a license. There's a good chance that was the guy delivering milk to Lawrence at Bathurst and Bloor.


It was Borden Milk, I remember them well, Loved those old glass bottles.
We used to have stables in the neighbourhood for horses across the street.

Used to love going over to the stables to see them.


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> It was Borden Milk, I remember them well, Loved those old glass bottles.
> We used to have stables in the neighbourhood for horses across the street.
> 
> Used to love going over to the stables to see them.


Live down the street from it now. Love this area used to rent room and kitchen here when I was younger and even mouthier.


----------



## Macfury

I remember my cousins in Weston having bread and milk delivered. At the age of three i saw ONE milk horse in London, ON. There were stables in Toronto on Merton street in the 1950s.

Still have a knife sharpener come by a couple of times a month.

I paid for swimming lessons at Dufferin and Lawrence, which was North York, so it must have been a local Toronto aberration.

I think that Christie Pits merry-go-round was still there a few years back--2003.


----------



## adagio

Free swimming lessons didn't exist outside of "Toronto" before amalgamation. 

I remember bread and milk delivery at Keele and Wilson. Milk was best in the winter when you could scoop the frozen cream from the top of milk in the bottle.


----------



## Lawrence

Saw on the news that a recommendation has been made that swimming
classes be made mandatory for children 5 and under in schools.

There have been too many fatalities in the last year


----------



## Lawrence

Here's hoping that the Premier of Ontario shows up for all the events,
Ha ha, Wouldn't that put Ford in his place.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Here's hoping that the Premier of Ontario shows up for all the events,
> Ha ha, Wouldn't that put Ford in his place.


I hope he goes too. As long as McGuinty attends the parade, he can't do any harm as premiere.


----------



## groovetube

no Hudak is priming himself up to do plenty of that to Ontario.

Move over doofus McGuinty, he's merely Hudak's valet in that department.

It'll be interesting in about 6 years from now, as both conservative governments start to unravel. To see the conservative supporters scratching their heads wondering where all the money went. Just like the liberals in majority, and the conservatives before them.

Insanity is...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Insanity is...


Voting NDP.


----------



## groovetube

since it's never been done federally, you lose.

The fact that you glossed over the obvious, nails you down, just perfectly along with the rest of the sheeple herded into majority governments.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> since it's never been done federally, you lose.


Some people have voted for the NDP federally... they're just ashamed to admit it.


----------



## groovetube

I have in every federal election since the first liberal majority. I voted liberal that first go, and never have since.

I think it would have been more accurate to say it isn't something to boast about voting in the swine at the trough currently, and the ones before them.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> I have in every federal election since the first liberal majority. I voted liberal that first go, and never have since.
> 
> I think it would have been more accurate to say it isn't something to boast about voting in the swine at the trough currently, and the ones before them.


Amen


----------



## Lawrence

I hear they are selling "I am a Gay Mayor in the closet" costumes on...
News flash...Gay riots in the streets, Parade goers are burning...Back to the scheduled program.

Possible?

Lol...The future could be fun.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> I hear they are selling "I am a Gay Mayor in the closet" costumes on...
> News flash...Gay riots in the streets, Parade goers are burning...Back to the scheduled program.
> 
> Possible?
> 
> Lol...The future could be fun.


Why would they make fun of homoisexuality like that?


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Why would they make fun of *homoisexuality* like that?


Whether they would or whether they wouldn't,
We may never know what they might do, That's why we speculate.

The future can only be seen when the present is past.


----------



## groovetube

Toronto to announce new buyout package for about 50,000 city workers - The Globe and Mail

I recall Ford promising me my taxes being cut, with no reduction in services. Interestingly enough we're hearing some similar lies federally.

I'm guessing, Ford is just yet another right wing liar. There's no way services won't be cut drastically, and I can guarantee, my taxes will go up.


----------



## kps

When Miller increased the city work force by 10,000 employees, did you see an increase in city services? Many of these will be redundant management...good riddance. Hang in there Groove, it may not be all doom and gloom.


----------



## groovetube

I sure didn't see them decrease. 

This fat screwball is a liar. He has billions and billions in projects he needs to figure out how to fund that will go into major cost overruns. Ford will go down as the biggest flailer of cash in Toronto history. Mark my words.

He'll make Miller look like a tight fisted conservative. Unfortunately, it'll take Toronto years to recover from it.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> When Miller increased the city work force by 10,000 employees, did you see an increase in city services? Many of these will be redundant management...good riddance. Hang in there Groove, it may not be all doom and gloom.



Exactly. There was an increase in pork, not services. I cant believe my good fortune that Ford is actually planning to go through with this. These people can go on to live productive lives doing real work that builds value in the private sector.


----------



## Macfury

Take a look at this figure: 



> Currently, over $4.6-billion – or 45 per cent of all city operating expenditures – goes directly into employee pockets in the form of salaries and benefits.


Yow!


----------



## groovetube

Expensive to run a city there macfury, as our good friend liar ford is quickly finding out. Scrambling as to what to slash now that he has some monster billions of dollars in boondoggles to fund. That makes you happy too I suppose.

Can't imagine your good luck!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Take a look at this figure:
> 
> 
> 
> Yow!


that's in line with most business. salaries are often 50% of expenses in similar work to what a civil servant would do.

but what happened to all the gravy he promised he'd find? wasn't city hall just oozing it?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Expensive to run a city there macfury, as our good friend liar ford is quickly finding out. Scrambling as to what to slash now that he has some monster billions of dollars in boondoggles to fund. That makes you happy too I suppose.
> 
> Can't imagine your good luck!


This is the place to slash! I don't enjoy most of the services offered by the city.


----------



## whatiwant

i-rui said:


> but what happened to all the gravy he promised he'd find? wasn't city hall just oozing it?


$60 a year! Huzzah!


----------



## Macfury

It took Miller years to create this monstrosity--I don't expect Ford to be able to dismantle it overnight without the screams and protests of councillors and a few citizens like groovetube who have grown dependent on free niche services.


----------



## Max

If nothing else, your faith in Ford is touching.

As for your insinuation that the last mayor is to blame for all that is rotten in the COTU, isn't that just a bit silly? Many of this city's problems been festering away for years, after all. Our transportation woes alone stem from decades of neglect, mismanagement, and ostrich-like behaviour.

I believe that for every cut Mayor Ford instigates he will find a way to reward loyal cronies.


----------



## groovetube

Have a look boys, the "libertarian" wants us to think he believes miller created "the monstrosity".
:lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> Have a look boys, the "libertarian" wants us to think he believes miller created "the monstrosity".
> :lmao::lmao::lmao:


I accept his apology on behalf of the soundbite.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> If nothing else, your faith in Ford is touching.
> 
> As for your insinuation that the last mayor is to blame for all that is rotten in the COTU, isn't that just a bit silly? Many of this city's problems been festering away for years, after all. Our transportation woes alone stem from decades of neglect, mismanagement, and ostrich-like behaviour.
> 
> I believe that for every cut Mayor Ford instigates he will find a way to reward loyal cronies.


Miller is not responsible for all of it--just a large part of the mushy section.


----------



## groovetube

the funny (sad) part of all this, is the right desperately trying hard not to see their saviour isn't doing the very same thing, but making the 'boondoggle' far, far worse.

Apparently burning billions on er, other priorities" is far more accountable and has so much more respect for our tax dollars.


----------



## Max

MF, what's mushy is your unseemly embrace of Ford as your saviour. It's a peculiar thing, given your penchant for critical thinking.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> MF, what's mushy is your unseemly embrace of Ford as your saviour. It's a peculiar thing, given your penchant for critical thinking.


Check my earlier posts regarding this. Disposing of 50,000 workers is my kind of thinking. I'm actually shocked to see something so positive occurring.


----------



## Max

Oh, I realize you do love disposal.

My expectation is that for every dollar the Ford admin wrings out for the sake of shrinking the budget, they'll be braying at the province and Feds for additional money just to continue to run the city. For every buck saved in one department he'll spend it on another - more police and security, perhaps a new Ford- branded Ministry of Fear... maybe even a much-needed Ministry of Media (management). You know, stuff like that. The COTU citizenry needs to be shielded from its own worse impulses and what better men to do it than the Brothers Ford? You know they just love us all to bits.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Oh, I realize you do love disposal.
> 
> My expectation is that for every dollar the Ford admin wrings out for the sake of shrinking the budget, they'll be braying at the province and Feds for additional money just to continue to run the city. For every buck saved in one department he'll spend it on another - more police and security, perhaps a new Ford- branded Ministry of Fear... maybe even a much-needed Ministry of Media (management). You know, stuff like that. The COTU citizenry needs to be shielded from its own worse impulses and what better men to do it than the Brothers Ford? You know they just love us all to bits.


Miller had already created enough such departments that continuing them under new names won't impact the budget at all.

Right now Ford is cleaning house. Miller charged into office braying about creating "union jobs." I will judge Ford on what he does, not on what you fear he will do.


----------



## groovetube

correction, what he IS doing...

Ford isn't cleaning house I'm afraid. He's simply moving money over to another hungrier bank account. This is what he is currently engaged in.

He just suckered people into this "stopping the gravy train" crap he knew people would swallow.


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> Miller had already created enough such departments that continuing them under new names won't impact the budget at all.
> 
> Right now Ford is cleaning house. Miller charged into office braying about creating "union jobs." I will judge Ford on what he does, not on what you fear he will do.


Nice, MF. You will also cut him more slack because he falls better within your ideological parameters. Put in a way you can better appreciate, you will judge him based on your expectations of how he will benefit you directly. I will judge him on how well he benefits the city.

I agree with Groove. If you think Ford is doing anything but shuffling money from one black hole to another, I have a lovely bridge to sell you. What you seem to care about has more to do with ideology and optics than practical, pragmatic concerns. Shiny surfaces, wot?


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Nice, MF. You will also cut him more slack because he falls better within your ideological parameters. Put in a way you can better appreciate, you will judge him based on your expectations of how he will benefit you directly. I will judge him on how well he benefits the city.
> 
> I agree with Groove. If you think Ford is doing anything but shuffling money from one black hole to another, I have a lovely bridge to sell you. What you seem to care about has more to do with ideology and optics than practical, pragmatic concerns. Shiny surfaces, wot?


Of course it fits into my ideology. What's wrong with that? But it's an ideology I think is practical.

"For the good of all" is the biggest black hole of them all. A child's fairy tale and one also based on ideology. I love the way that people exempt their own feelings from any ideological bent. They have the right attitude, because it is free of ideology! 

I don't see any morality in paying for programs I don't support and will never use, except for the very poorest among us. Gutting the city's civil service is great start.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Miller is not responsible for all of it--just a large part of the mushy section.


except there isn't really a "mushy section" :

James: Rob Ford?s gravy train running on fumes - thestar.com



> The consultants begin their report on the public works and infrastructure department with this: “The vast majority, 96 per cent . . . are core municipal services.”


thank god Ford spent $350,000 of toronto's money to find out there really isn't any gravy after all. 



Macfury said:


> Check my earlier posts regarding this. Disposing of 50,000 workers is my kind of thinking.


the buy out is being offered to 50,000 workers. most of them won't accept it. the only ones that will are the ones with the most to gain (i.e the ones who well cost the city the most to buy out).


----------



## Macfury

They won't be "core services" for long.


----------



## groovetube

however, Ford campaigned on providing the same services and reducing my taxes. He said all he had to do was stop the gravy train!!!

I maintain, that Ford is a liar. Ford has his own gravy train to fund. I will get far less services, and my taxes will go up to fund his brainless boondoggles. How anyone living in the city of Toronto and paying taxes could be ok with that, is anyone's guess.

Shiny ball!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I maintain, that Ford is a liar. Ford has his own gravy train to fund. I will get far less services, and my taxes will go up to fund his brainless boondoggles.


Give it six months.


----------



## Max

Core services will of course be redefined as the fiscal noose tightens. This in turn will be absorbed into the greater wave of 'the new wealth is not being dead' phase we'll be entering. No one will complain overly much because they'll have other concerns.

What core services remain will still be subject to scrutiny by the Fordists, eager to bang the outsourcing drum - who will of course be happy to overlook their own perks and will continue to look after their own ridings, as councillors before them have always done. That's a special kind of mushiness all its own. It smacks of hypocrisy and double-standards but what the hey - politics is a dirty business and its incumbent of all participants to do their utmost to ensure that when they smile for the cameras, no trace of mush remains at the edges of their jowls.

Meanwhile, in other non-news, the alleged outsourcing savings will strangely fail to materialize and making certain services mandatory (and therefore strike-free) will in time help enshrine salary and benefit increases significantly beyond the current outrages. The aforementioned savings become systemic, crippling expenses. Ideological triumph again! Bring me another flagon of wine, slave.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Give it six months.


no need. It's already in progress. If you're keeping up macfury.

Core services are being looked at to cut, we already know this is happening, and already there is a clear indication that taxes will indeed go up.

It's never good to keep your head in the sand reciting libertarian love songs.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Core services will of course be redefined as the fiscal noose tightens. This in turn will be absorbed into the greater wave of 'the new wealth is not being dead' phase we'll be entering. No one will complain overly much because they'll have other concerns.
> 
> What core services remain will still be subject to scrutiny by the Fordists, eager to bang the outsourcing drum - who will of course be happy to overlook their own perks and will continue to look after their own ridings, as councillors before them have always done. That's a special kind of mushiness all its own. It smacks of hypocrisy and double-standards but what the hey - politics is a dirty business and its incumbent of all participants to do their utmost to ensure that when they smile for the cameras, no trace of mush remains at the edges of their jowls.
> 
> Meanwhile, in other non-news, the alleged outsourcing savings will strangely fail to materialize and making certain services mandatory (and therefore strike-free) will in time help enshrine salary and benefit increases significantly beyond the current outrages. The aforementioned savings become systemic, crippling expenses. Ideological triumph again! Bring me another flagon of wine, slave.


ha ha. That's a pretty well written summary Max.

Of course, I don't know that it would have been a whole better under other candidates, though I'm not sure the others would have been dumb enough to embark on the subway to nowhere boondoggle.


----------



## Max

I am not suggesting we have anyone better out there to manage this burg, Groove. I am merely suggesting that the brothers Ford will not save the city from its own ingrained problems. They are in fact busy concocting fresh problems... which they will in turn market as solutions.

_Plus ça change._


----------



## kps

Ingrained problems resulting from years and years of neglect? Well someone needs to take the first steps. If "RoDo" (Rob & Doug) want to take it on, let them...I don't think they can screw it up any worse than the predecessors.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> I am not suggesting we have anyone better out there to manage this burg, Groove. I am merely suggesting that the brothers Ford will not save the city from its own ingrained problems. They are in fact busy concocting fresh problems... which they will in turn market as solutions.
> 
> _Plus ça change._


no, I didn't think you were. And right you are. Too many see the Fords as some sort of get things done the right way sort of nonsense, and it's understandable that people would really want that. The Fords simply saw an opportunity to capitalize on that.

That's all.


----------



## Max

Probably not. But I don't expect that the brothers Ford will address all of the problems stemming from years of neglect - rather, they will cherry-pick the ones they feel most comfortable about. They will, as per custom, stonewall on all else.

Stage-managed bluster and jolly girth aside, neither do I believe that they have what it takes to rise above the performance of mayors and administrations preceding them. They will bungle on, albeit in their own inimitable manner.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Ingrained problems resulting from years and years of neglect? Well someone needs to take the first steps. If "RoDo" (Rob & Doug) want to take it on, let them...*I don't think they can screw it up any worse than the predecessors.*


really? Ha ha yeah. What could possibly go wrong lol...


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> really? Ha ha yeah. What could possibly go wrong lol...


Ye of little faith...


----------



## kps

Max said:


> Probably not. But I don't expect that the brothers Ford will address all of the problems stemming from years of neglect - rather, they will cherry-pick the ones they feel most comfortable about. They will, as per custom, stonewall on all else.
> 
> Stage-managed bluster and jolly girth aside, neither do I believe that they have what it takes to rise above the performance of mayors and administrations preceding them. They will bungle on, albeit in their own inimitable manner.


True, they already stumbled on a few things...like the cop budget raises, but I'm still in the wait and see camp.


----------



## groovetube

Mayor Ford votes against every community grants program - thestar.com

The sheer stupidity, of simply opposing everything, regardless of the importance of programs in this city, is enough to make you puke.

Go back to Etobicoke Mr. Ford, there's a big city here with big city problems which he clearly, has shown he can't understand.


----------



## Macfury

I love to see the people sucking on the teat of these "entitlements" wringing their hands and beating their chests. Dance, groove, dance!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I love to see the people sucking on the teat of these "entitlements" wringing their hands and beating their chests. Dance, groove, dance!


but all these "entitlements" passed.
by a *monstrous* margin. 
Even Ford's lackeys couldn't side with him.


----------



## groovetube

entitlements?

Clearly you have no clue what this is about. And neither does Rob Ford.

As Max said, simply blanketing this with your ideological misguided one offs means zip here. The funny thing is, while people with your beliefs love to scream about socialists and why that wouldn't work, it's precisely why your version is doomed to fail if not even worse.

But it'd never, ever dawn on you.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> entitlements?
> 
> Clearly you have no clue what this is about. And neither does Rob Ford.
> 
> As Max said, simply blanketing this with your ideological misguided one offs means zip here. The funny thing is, while people with your beliefs love to scream about socialists and why that wouldn't work, it's precisely why your version is doomed to fail if not even worse.
> 
> But it'd never, ever dawn on you.


Keep dancing! That's entertainment!


----------



## groovetube

I don't need to macfury, because as i-rui pointed out, even ford's own right wing lackeys can see the sheer stupidity of that position.

Make of that what you will.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I don't need to macfury, because as i-rui pointed out, even ford's own right wing lackeys can see the sheer stupidity of that position.
> 
> Make of that what you will.



Hmm. Tell me more. This is fascinating.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> but all these "entitlements" passed.
> by a *monstrous* margin.
> Even Ford's lackeys couldn't side with him.


If it isn't happening, why is 'groove in agony?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> If it isn't happening, why is 'groove in agony?


i don't think he is in agony. i think he was just pointing out that Ford's ideology trumps reason & common sense.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i don't think he is in agony. i think he was just pointing out that Ford's ideology trumps reason & common sense.





groovetube said:


> maintain, that Ford is a liar. Ford has his own gravy train to fund. I will get far less services, and my taxes will go up to fund his brainless boondoggles. How anyone living in the city of Toronto and paying taxes could be ok with that, is anyone's guess.


Since nobody is apparently siding with Ford, none of this will come to pass...


----------



## mrjimmy

So 50,000 down to 17,000. None of which have to accept.

Seems like 50,000 is a bit of wishful thinking.

City offers buyouts to 17,000 employees - thestar.com


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Since nobody is apparently siding with Ford, none of this will come to pass...


no one sided with Ford on stopping to fund community grants programs.

That's a separate issue then dealing with the Budget shortfall. That has to be dealt with by either revenue or cuts. I doubt Ford will get to cut and fire everything/one he wants, but he'll be able to get some cuts through. What's more worrying is him selling off public assets and privatizing certain services. Any public assets sold will undoubtably be sold for a song to some corporation, and any public service privatized will most likely provide worse service at minimal savings.

But Groovetube is right. Ford's entire campaign was a lie, and anyone who actually bought it was politically naive. The idea that he could simply "stop the gravy train" and not have to cut services or raise taxes is pure fantasy. He probably should have actually looked at the books before repealing the vehicle registration tax.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> But Groovetube is right. Ford's entire campaign was a lie, and anyone who actually bought it was politically naive. The idea that he could simply "stop the gravy train" and not have to cut services or raise taxes is pure fantasy. He probably should have actually looked at the books before repealing the vehicle registration tax.


The vehicle tax was one of the planks he was elected on. He knew the shortfalls it would create and was confident he'd make it up with the slash and burn campaign that's coming next.

Although I say that as if he was some kind of strategist. I think it was simply what Doug told him to do. He is Tommy-Boy after all.


----------



## groovetube

some people like tommy boy, and the sort of logic that he has. They're more comfortable with that kinda "we're not gonna take it!" thing.

Actually using some real thought and providing leadership on this just isn't his strong suit.

Which is rather unfortunate given he's mayor of Canada's biggest city.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> some people like tommy boy, and the sort of logic that he has. They're more comfortable with that kinda "we're not gonna take it!" thing.
> 
> Actually using some real thought and providing leadership on this just isn't his strong suit.
> 
> Which is rather unfortunate given he's mayor of Canada's biggest city.


Did David Miller sign your T-shirt on his way out?


----------



## groovetube

No I signed his.


----------



## Max

Ba-dum-_BOM._


----------



## Macfury

BOM indeed.


----------



## Max

Breed only maggots?
Best on meatloaf?
Bred Only Masterfully?
Bank On Meagreness?


----------



## SINC

Before other men?


----------



## mrjimmy

Bombastic Opinionated Male


----------



## Max

Boned on Monday?
Blasted on moonshine?
Broken over melbatoast?


----------



## whatiwant

Bottle or more 

(wine + DUI)


----------



## Sonal

Big Oaf Mayor.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Big Oaf Mayor.


(Sung to Camptown Races)

Big Oaf Mayyyor sing this song,
Doo-da, doo-da,
Big Oaf Mayor's belt eight feet long,
Oh, de doo-da day


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy that's a real mess of a parody.

It's the _Camptown ladies_ who sing the song. So for proper parallelism, the mayor "sings" the song--though why he would be singing about his own belt is beyond me.

The meter is way off in the third line. You might try "The Big Oaf's belt is eight feet long."

The Doo-da parts are fine.


----------



## groovetube

anyone see the latest? Ford confuses costs with revenue.

Yeah this is the guy with his fingers on our money, he's not sure what column to put them figures... glad there's enough people in city hall to vote him out on his stupidity.
Ford’s financial numbers don’t add up - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> anyone see the latest? Ford confuses costs with revenue.
> 
> Yeah this is the guy with his fingers on our money, he's not sure what column to put them figures... glad there's enough people in city hall to vote him out on his stupidity.
> Ford’s financial numbers don’t add up - The Globe and Mail


Marcus Gee is still wetting his pants over Miller's demise. Taking Ford's comments out of context does not serve him well. Another guy clawing at his hair shirt over cuts. 

Too bad.


----------



## groovetube

out of context?

ha ha ha. Right. Sort of like you declaring government run healthcare keeps to many people alive.

oops.  Then the oh you didn't understaaaaand maaaaan... heh heh.


----------



## Macfury

Speak English. This isn't Yorkville in 1971.


----------



## groovetube

I was 6 years old then.

I think it's quite clear.


----------



## Max

Here I am, back from a fine swim up at Lake Simcoe, wondering just what was wrong with Yorkville circa 1971 and why MF found the dialect so difficult.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Here I am, back from a fine swim up at Lake Simcoe, wondering just what was wrong with Yorkville circa 1971 and why MF found the dialect so difficult.


Not difficult--sad.


----------



## Max

Why so sad, man? Such a great day out there. No sense in hanging in Bummertown.


----------



## i-rui

looks like ford is gong to raise the property tax by 3%.

i wonder how all the sheep who voted for him feel now that the reality hits of there not being a big fat juicy gravy train that could magically be tapped in to fix the city's problems.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> looks like ford is gong to raise the property tax by 3%.
> 
> i wonder how all the sheep who voted for him feel now that the reality hits of there not being a big fat juicy gravy train that could magically be tapped in to fix the city's problems.


He never said that he wouldn't raise property taxes _EVER!_

The gravy train is most of the employees collecting fat salaries for doing sweet nothing on the taxpayer's dime. He's doing fine buying them out and laying them off.


----------



## Ottawaman

Buyouts only make sense if you target them at services you will no longer provide. If workers take buyouts in departments that will be retained their positions will have to be refilled. This across the board approach shows no thought or planning has taken place.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> He never said that he wouldn't raise property taxes _EVER!_
> .


he said he would never raise property taxes more than inflation. core inflation is @ 1.8%.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> he said he would never raise property taxes more than inflation. core inflation is @ 1.8%.


He said not more than inflation, not "core inflation." The current inflation rate is 3.7% and he promised an increase of no more than 3%.


----------



## whatiwant

So he essentially moved the $60 vehicle tax to property instead. Gotcha.


----------



## groovetube

it's all about getting the fools to buy his lies.

The truth is, he isn't going to be saving any money or "not raising your taxes" (as he actually promised...), he's simply going to move money from one set of priorities, to another set. He'll make this big grandstanding thing about 'stopping the gravy" which will continue to be bought by the right wing fools, but it's just taking money from one "gravy boat", and putting into another one. And he'll need to raise taxes to help pay for his upcoming multi-billion dollar boondoggle that end up costing us twice what they said it would, and we'll still be left with a transit system in the downtown core that's way over capacity. Just wait 5 years to see what will happen... you think grid lock and the "war on cars is bad now?

Heh.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> He said not more than inflation, not "core inflation." The current inflation rate is 3.7% and he promised an increase of no more than 3%.


the core inflation rate is @ 1.8%. core inflation is adjusted to factor out volatile things like food and oil.

is property tax food or oil?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the core inflation rate is @ 1.8%. core inflation is adjusted to factor out volatile things like food and oil.
> 
> is property tax food or oil?


 Is the cost of energy part of the cost of running the city? Yes. Therefore, this arbitrary focus on the "core inflation rate" is not relevant.


----------



## groovetube

henceforth Rob Ford has his big excuse for lying to everyone in his campaign.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> henceforth Rob Ford has his big excuse for lying to everyone in his campaign.


He said he would stick to the "core inflation rate?" Find that for me.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Is the cost of energy part of the cost of running the city? Yes. Therefore, this arbitrary focus on the "core inflation rate" is not relevant.





Macfury said:


> He said he would stick to the "core inflation rate?" Find that for me.



Metro - With Rob Ford, freezing property taxes is job one



> Ford had campaigned on a platform that included an inflation-based tax increase of about 1.8 per cent, while making deep cuts to city spending.


Rob Ford's tax hike: Granatstein | Columnists | Opinion | Toronto Sun



> But Ford said he will hike property taxes about 1.8% annually, the rate of inflation - the actual rate, not the David Miller rate that plopped in between 2.9 and 4%


so you're trying to say ford campaigned on the exact same rate of property tax hikes as Miller?? Awesome. Love the conservative non-logic.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> He said he would stick to the "core inflation rate?" Find that for me.


he clearly said on every television network that we would save money on our taxes and he wouldn't slash our services.

Full stop.

Excuse away.


----------



## Macfury

The promises only said he would base it on the inflation rate. He froze taxes in 2011.


----------



## groovetube

so you're saying is, there was some fine print, and that he largely deceived the masses with those sweeping promises of tax savings and no service cuts.

I think he has even ensnared you into swallowing his promises of better fiscal management. You've been all excited about cutting spending money on these services, but you won't see any tax savings at all, in fact you'll end up paying more (which you seem pleased about oddly enough), even making things up like excusing him to doubling the tax increase. And then he'll just light it all on fire somewhere else on some other boondoggle he chants everyone wants him to spend on.

Funny funny stuff.


----------



## Macfury

If that's how you see it, you'll be one delighted lefty. Meanwhile, in the real world...


----------



## groovetube

you've wrongly assumed I'm not for efficient spending.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you've wrongly assumed I not for efficient spending.


No. "You for" efficient spending--but on items worthless to me.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> mrjimmy that's a real mess of a parody.
> 
> It's the _Camptown ladies_ who sing the song. So for proper parallelism, the mayor "sings" the song--though why he would be singing about his own belt is beyond me.
> 
> The meter is way off in the third line. You might try "The Big Oaf's belt is eight feet long."
> 
> The Doo-da parts are fine.


Well my word, I didn't realize we have Rogers and Hammerstein in the house.

While I admit I threw it together in haste, I think most here got the gist.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Well my word, I didn't realize we have Rogers and Hammerstein in the house.
> 
> While I admit I threw it together in haste, I think most here got the gist.


More of a Sammy Lerner.

Compose in haste, repent in leisure.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> No. "You for" efficient spending--but on items worthless to me.


That's the funny thing macfury. Often in this funny funny world where there are lots of people, with different needs, wants, and agendas, you end up having to make some compromises. You seem to think the world revolves around macfury, and if it doesn't matter to you, well, tat should be tossed.

There's a big gulf between full on socialism, which doesn't work any better than libertarianism, (largely for a lot of the same reasons interestingly enough), and pure selfishness.

It's the sort of outright selfishness I see happening in the US right now, where the elite rich feel that the debt reductions shouldn't have to cost them a dime, it should all end up on the backs of seniors and hard working families. And the very same scream endlessly how "socialism" doesn't work.

You don't say...


----------



## Macfury

You want too much ti be given to you, but you excuse it by saying it's for everyone else.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You want too much ti be given to you, but you excuse it by saying it's for everyone else.


what?

That had to be the lamest story telling nonsense I've seen from you yet.

define what it all is that is "too much I want given to me".


----------



## i-rui

The Grid TO | Top five Ford truthiness fact checks of the week

i love how they just make this stuff up. zero research or preparation. all talk, no thought.


----------



## FeXL

i-rui said:


> i love how they just make this stuff up. zero research or preparation. all talk, no thought.


Hey! Is this the greenhouse gas thread?


----------



## groovetube

no we're busy trashing the numbskull we have for the COTU mayor.


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> The Grid TO | Top five Ford truthiness fact checks of the week
> 
> i love how they just make this stuff up. zero research or preparation. all talk, no thought.


I was thinking, what if they combined the libraries and the Tim Horton's franchises? I'd love to grab a coffee when I pick up my holds.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> no we're busy trashing the numbskull we have for the COTU mayor.


My mistake. Carry on...


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I was thinking, what if they combined the libraries and the Tim Horton's franchises? I'd love to grab a coffee when I pick up my holds.


Probably get stuck with Coffee Time.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> Probably get stuck with Coffee Time.


More of the same hot ****. Mmmmmm.


----------



## whatiwant

jawknee said:


> More of the same hot ****. Mmmmmm.


The **** is p-i-s-s.


----------



## groovetube

if this guy can't get his story straight on a -revenue- cut of 70 million, just wait til he gets his peanut butter covered chubby fingers on billions for his subway boondoggle.

Why is it always the ones that screech fiscal conservatism the loudest that screw things up the most? Then somehow it's a lefties fault.

Funny, funny stuff people take for gospel.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> if this guy can't get his story straight on a -revenue- cut of 70 million, just wait til he gets his peanut butter covered chubby fingers on billions for his subway boondoggle.
> 
> Why is it always the ones that screech fiscal conservatism the loudest that screw things up the most? Then somehow it's a lefties fault.
> 
> Funny, funny stuff people take for gospel.


Stop the GRAVY TRAIN! No more GRAAAAAAAAAVY! :S


----------



## groovetube

I think Ford has the almost sure potential to outdo Lastman on being the biggest fool of a mayor in Toronto history.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I think Ford has the almost sure potential to outdo Lastman on being the biggest fool of a mayor in Toronto history.


Miss those downtown entitlements much?


----------



## Sonal

Well hey MacFury, just hop on the TTC and come on down, you can enjoy the entitlements too.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Miss those downtown entitlements much?


you know macfury if you actually made any sense, there could be maybe a bit of a conversation.

But I'm afraid you're just going to have to explain what the hell you're talking about.


----------



## Max

Let me try to explain it, Groove: MF is attempting to suggest that you are a leftist crybaby who feels the world owes you endless favours.

I know, it's ridiculous. But that's our MF - tarring and feathering with boundless joy.


----------



## groovetube

So it would seem, though it'd be helpful if we knew what favors he thinks I'm assume I'm entitled to.


----------



## Max

Irrelevant. It's about broad strokes and not proving any allegations. Makes it easy, don't you know!


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Irrelevant. It's about broad strokes and not proving any allegations. Makes it easy, don't you know!


Exactamundo. Why even bother with specific allegations when the age of the Ford apocalypse is upon us? Chest beating, clawing of hair shirts and scattering of ashes is the new order of the day.

I feel a haiku coming on:

Hero to the burbs
But foes of Ford lament, he's
Rotten to the Core


----------



## Sonal

The burbs signed up for
better than this. There is less
gravy than once thought.

Ford is not the man
to solve real problems: running
a city is hard.

Balance the budget,
keep the services. Run it
all efficiently.


----------



## Ottawaman

Gravy train platform
Toronto city weeping 
Evil Ford laughing


----------



## groovetube

the first stage is denial, lookout he's gonna angry soon.

I'd be pretty ticked if the one I backed so much turned out to be dumber than tommy boy. 

i voted for ford!
oops the guy is a big fool
better luck next time


----------



## Max

core vs. suburbs:
vile rants, sour angst yet no peace~
Ford has no comment


----------



## Macfury

Burbs versus centre
Downtown is down at long last
Shoe's on other foot


----------



## groovetube

so desperate to make this an us and them.

fight! fight!

sad. And rather childish really.


----------



## Sonal

There once were two brother's named Ford,
who were hungry and exceedingly bored.
"Let's run for Mayor
there's gravy there,
and we'll grab it while spreading discord."


----------



## groovetube

Not bad


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> There once were two brother's named Ford,
> who were hungry and exceedingly bored.
> "Let's run for Mayor
> there's gravy there,
> and we'll grab it while spreading discord."


Nice one!


----------



## whatiwant

mrjimmy said:


> nice one!


+3


----------



## Max

I bow to Sonal
she of the piecing insight
on all things Fordish


----------



## Sonal

*curtsey*


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> so desperate to make this an us and them.


I've never spoken about the "real Toronto" or secession or the "905ers" who voted for Ford. And I live in the Old Toronto,

There has always been an us vs. them undercurrent in Toronto, but it's been kept rather civilized and quiet--that is until the downtowners found out they had lost "most-favoured" status. Now the yowling and creeching has reached epic proportions.


----------



## kps

What a silly thread this is turning out to be...

First of all using "905er" even as a "figure of speech" to refer to residents of the other Toronto boroughs is using the WRONG figure of speech.

That's like telling someone who lives in Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island or the Bronx that they're' not a New Yorker because they do not live in Manhattan.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> What a silly thread this is turning out to be...
> 
> First of all using "905er" even as a "figure of speech" to refer to residents of the other Toronto boroughs is using the WRONG figure of speech.
> 
> That's like telling someone who lives in Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island or the Bronx that they're' not a New Yorker because they do not live in Manhattan.


Yes, it is. This is the leap of logic being made by these people. The old jokes about the COTU expressed as though it were fact.


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> What a silly thread this is turning out to be...
> 
> First of all using "905er" even as a "figure of speech" to refer to residents of the other Toronto boroughs is using the WRONG figure of speech.
> 
> That's like telling someone who lives in Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island or the Bronx that they're' not a New Yorker because they do not live in Manhattan.


As one who grew up in the Borough of Queens, I always resented getting on the Long Island Expressway westbound to see signs saying "To the City" ........ as if Queens was not part of NYC. tptptptp


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I've never spoken about the "real Toronto" or secession or the "905ers" who voted for Ford. And I live in the Old Toronto,
> 
> There has always been an us vs. them undercurrent in Toronto, but it's been kept rather civilized and quiet--that is until the downtowners found out they had lost "most-favoured" status. Now the yowling and creeching has reached epic proportions.


the only reason is because rob ford and his supporters made it an issue.

End of story.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> the only reason is because rob ford and his supporters made it an issue.


By getting Ford elected, I imagine.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> the only reason is because rob ford and his supporters made it an issue.


Yes, because under normal circumstances, downtown ignores the existence of the 'burbs, except as people who need better transit access so that they can get downtown lest they never truly understand what 'real' Toronto is all about.

The disharmony is on both sides.


----------



## Max

Yet it remains a story.

What was it the argument was allegedly supposed to be about again?


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> What was it the argument was allegedly supposed to be about again?


Dreadful haiku.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Yet it remains a story.
> 
> What was it the argument was allegedly supposed to be about again?


I think I had it as Ford is an idiot, but does voting for Ford make one an idiot?


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> I think I had it as Ford is an idiot, but does voting for Ford make one an idiot?


Only if you continue to believe what he says.


----------



## Max

That's abou the size of it.

Now that he's in, he's a different beastie.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Yes, because under normal circumstances, downtown ignores the existence of the 'burbs, except as people who need better transit access so that they can get downtown lest they never truly understand what 'real' Toronto is all about.
> 
> The disharmony is on both sides.


sure, but it's only natural for people in a given area to be concerned about where -they- live. Since I live in the Annex downtown, I don't go around championing the street signs being upgraded in North York.

But the guy who is supposed to lead all regions, is busy capitalizing on this disharmony you speak of.

And this is something macfury, simply can't grasp.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> That's abou the size of it.
> 
> Now that he's in, he's a different beastie.


And I'm sure that'll change in about 3.5 years again.


----------



## groovetube

CTV Toronto - Cuts to Toronto's transit service, crossing guards proposed - CTV News



> c
> onsidering one-officer patrols instead of the current partnership model
> reducing or eliminating the school crossing guard program
> ending the need for police officers to be posted at construction sites
> transferring parking and by-law enforcement to another department
> Thursday's report further suggests closing some of the city's library branches and cutting hours at others, selling some of the city's off-street parking facilities as well as selling the Toronto Zoo, Exhibition Place and at least one of the city's theatres, specifically the Sony Centre for the Performing Arts.
> 
> KPMG also suggest eliminating a public health program that funds AIDS and drug prevention as well as student nutrition.
> 
> Previous recommendations from the core services review over the past two weeks have included:
> 
> 
> eliminating city-run childcare
> cutting farm and zoo attractions
> sending more trash to landfills to cut down on costly recycling
> further privatizing garbage collection
> cutting down on how often streets are cleaned and snow is plowed
> eliminating fluoridation of Toronto's water supply
> eliminate funding for public art programs
> cutting heritage grants available to historical buildings.


I recall this fat * promising he could cu the gravy, save us ax money, and NOT having to cut services.

Now they're proposing to make cops walk the beat alone, cut the school crossing guards for our children, as well as a host of other important services?

This has to be a joke.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> This has to be a joke.


_
Oh for the love of heaven! By all the saints! This can't be! Oh, the children!!!!_

Seriously groove, this is mostly a list of items suggested by KPMG.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> sure, but it's only natural for people in a given area to be concerned about where -they- live. Since I live in the Annex downtown, I don't go around championing the street signs being upgraded in North York.
> 
> But the guy who is supposed to lead all regions, is busy capitalizing on this disharmony you speak of.
> 
> And this is something macfury, simply can't grasp.


I see a lot of anti-Fordites increasing the disharmony by insulting those who voted for him. Not exactly helpful. I've never known attacking someone to be an effective way to create harmony between you and them. (Not speaking about you specifically, unless of course someone else wants to go to the trouble of hunting down examples.)

But the really need to upgrade the street signs in the Annex. Drives me nuts when I'm looking for a street and I can't see the damn sign until I'm passing it. Seriously, there are drivers downtown too. That one thing that the 905 (the real 905) gets right.

I dunno. I come at this from a weird perspective. Grew up in North York under Mayor Mel, moved downtown but work in the 'burbs where everyone I'm related to lives, drive daily but would prefer not to, have beat my head against the brick wall that is Urban Planning more than once, have some minimal knowledge of community housing and its related social issues, volunteer at the Library, and with the apartment buildings we probably pay more in property taxes than all of you because single family home rates are cheap. 

What I see is a City Hall grown so massive and full of silos that to accomplish anything slightly different from "doing what we've always been doing" smacks you up against conflicting objectives so that you start something because the City's policy is "Let's do XYZ" but they can't approve such a venture because it's against their other policy. It's pure stupidity and a huge loss of opportunity for the City because they could make approvals contingent upon all kinds of hoops that they need people to jump through to accomplish other aims. 

THAT is a problem that needs fixing--what's the City's vision for Toronto, and how do you implement that vision from start to finish. 

Instead we have bickering over what kind of an idiot would vote for Ford. You know what, this is the same example of the silos that don't work in City Hall, except they are Old City of Toronto vs. Everyone Else. Doesn't help anyone. Doesn't matter who started it either. 

I don't think Ford is the man for this job. I think if he keeps putting his ideological policies ahead of the fiscal conservative platform he was elected for he's doomed, but I don't think he's taken such a terrible initial approach--if you don't know where the alleged gravy is, you get someone to independently study and measure the problem to find it. That the report turned up really wonderful things that are not actually essential to the running of the city? Not a surprise. That people want to discuss the idea of cutting them? Not a surprise either. That doesn't mean that they should be cut, but hey, is it such a bad thing for the entire City to learn that 97% of everything we pay for is actually essential? I don't think so.


----------



## Macfury

I have to agree with you Sonal--when even looking at where money is spent is cause for alarm, we have a problem.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I see a lot of anti-Fordites increasing the disharmony by insulting those who voted for him. Not exactly helpful. I've never known attacking someone to be an effective way to create harmony between you and them. (Not speaking about you specifically, unless of course someone else wants to go to the trouble of hunting down examples.)
> 
> But the really need to upgrade the street signs in the Annex. Drives me nuts when I'm looking for a street and I can't see the damn sign until I'm passing it. Seriously, there are drivers downtown too. That one thing that the 905 (the real 905) gets right.
> 
> I dunno. I come at this from a weird perspective. Grew up in North York under Mayor Mel, moved downtown but work in the 'burbs where everyone I'm related to lives, drive daily but would prefer not to, have beat my head against the brick wall that is Urban Planning more than once, have some minimal knowledge of community housing and its related social issues, volunteer at the Library, and with the apartment buildings we probably pay more in property taxes than all of you because single family home rates are cheap.
> 
> What I see is a City Hall grown so massive and full of silos that to accomplish anything slightly different from "doing what we've always been doing" smacks you up against conflicting objectives so that you start something because the City's policy is "Let's do XYZ" but they can't approve such a venture because it's against their other policy. It's pure stupidity and a huge loss of opportunity for the City because they could make approvals contingent upon all kinds of hoops that they need people to jump through to accomplish other aims.
> 
> THAT is a problem that needs fixing--what's the City's vision for Toronto, and how do you implement that vision from start to finish.
> 
> Instead we have bickering over what kind of an idiot would vote for Ford. You know what, this is the same example of the silos that don't work in City Hall, except they are Old City of Toronto vs. Everyone Else. Doesn't help anyone. Doesn't matter who started it either.
> 
> I don't think Ford is the man for this job. I think if he keeps putting his ideological policies ahead of the fiscal conservative platform he was elected for he's doomed, but I don't think he's taken such a terrible initial approach--if you don't know where the alleged gravy is, you get someone to independently study and measure the problem to find it. That the report turned up really wonderful things that are not actually essential to the running of the city? Not a surprise. That people want to discuss the idea of cutting them? Not a surprise either. That doesn't mean that they should be cut, but hey, is it such a bad thing for the entire City to learn that 97% of everything we pay for is actually essential? I don't think so.


the one question I have is, how much is it costing us to find this out? 

Truthfully, as you pointed out plainly, Ford is clearly not the man for the job. This, has been what I've been saying from the start (and so have a whole lot of people who agree with you), but it has gotten turned around into, 'well now you know what it's LIKE!!! As if I somehow, planned and secretly devised some devious plan that made sure those damn 905ers (or whatever you want to call them) is gonna get left out by jesus and the downtown will reign supreme.

That's the sort of insanely unbelievably stupidly brainless foolish nonsense that will of course cause these sorts of childish spats, because that's all it really is, childish.

No one actually wants other regions to be excluded, why would they. I wouldn't want the upper north east to be excluded from beneficial programs and services for much of the same reasons I don't want to see the downtown core excluded or ignored. If that's what happened well since I don't live in the north east, I wouldn't know the extent of it. And nor would I gloat the next election like some suckling little child that we got a "downtown mayor". That some posters would reduce it down to that level, is just insulting.

I do get what you're saying, and I agree. But never once would I ever think the downtown is far more important at the expense of other regions.

Taking a review of city services and spending takes a lot of balls, and brains. Both of which Rob Ford seems deficient in. I suspect we'll end up paying more for less under his brainless moves, and that affects all of Toronto, not just the downtown core.


----------



## Max

Back in the pre-amalgamation days, various mayors represented various cities and they had their own posse of councillors. I'm sure there was still the fractures of regionalism and petty turf wars back then, too - but at least we didn't have this distracting, inane 905 vs. 416 thing. Or burbs vs. the core or whatever you wish to call it. Now we have too large a city to be effectively managed - or is it a question of old rivalries still steering the boat, old paradigms still holding sway? Perhaps the city isn't too large after all. Perhaps we're suffering under a failure of leadership, imagination and courage.

One way to cut costs is to cut the number of councillors - make it a third to a half less. Think they'll go for that plan? Nope? Neither do I.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> One way to cut costs is to cut the number of councillors - make it a third to a half less. Think they'll go for that plan? Nope? Neither do I.


Doesn't make it any less of a good plan though.

The KPMG report only identified what services were essential. It didn't say anything about whether the cost of providing any particular essential service is excessive. That's something worth studying further--and yes, even spending money to do it.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube;1114212... that affects all of Toronto said:


> And only the downtown will scream.


----------



## groovetube

the atom smasher just keeps on trying.

Sorry pal the childish stupidity isn't welcome. I'm not expecting you to get it.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Back in the pre-amalgamation days, various mayors represented various cities and they had their own posse of councillors. I'm sure there was still the fractures of regionalism and petty turf wars back then, too - but at least we didn't have this distracting, inane 905 vs. 416 thing. Or burbs vs. the core or whatever you wish to call it. Now we have too large a city to be effectively managed - or is it a question of old rivalries still steering the boat, old paradigms still holding sway? Perhaps the city isn't too large after all. Perhaps we're suffering under a failure of leadership, imagination and courage.
> 
> One way to cut costs is to cut the number of councillors - make it a third to a half less. Think they'll go for that plan? Nope? Neither do I.


I'm not convinced having less councillors will really solve much of anything. The blood from that will just be messy.

They're going to have to have a more tougher look at things like management in ttc, etc., to get costs like that in line, for example. But they don't do that they simply make service cuts... There's gravy perhaps to be found, but making small ideological cuts is going to amount to flip all but a bunch of ill will. Which is where I see this going anyway.


----------



## Sonal

The thing is, there is a really big cultural divide between downtown and the 'burbs. (I'm not calling it the 905... that name is reserved for the actual 905, i.e., the G in GTA.) When a kid from Scarborough ventures 'downtown' on a Saturday night, they mean Yonge & Eglinton... that ain't downtown. 

Seriously, I grew up here and through my teenage years, downtown meant the Eaton's Centre. Ossington? Never heard of it. Dufferin? Yeah, that's that street out by Yorkdale. Ask half my cousins where the Annex is, and they've never heard of it. Ask my ex-in-laws (from Scarborough) about Cabbagetown and saving Riverdale Farm and they have no clue what you mean. But say Agincourt and they know exactly what you mean. 

It worked the other way too. I went to a private school in what is now midtown Toronto. Most of the students there were from Forest Hill, Rosedale, etc. I tell them I live near Don Mills and Finch, and they have no clue where Don Mills road is. (Finch is at least the last subway stop, but they never go up that far.) I would say, well, it's the next major street after Leslie... they don't know Leslie. Bayview, made some sense to them. Heck, it's not just kids... I remember trying to describe where I grew up to my first boss (who lived in the Beaches) and the best he could conceive of was "not that far from the IKEA".

It goes east/west too. I know my way around Scarborough no problem, but Etobicoke is kind of hazy. Make that very hazy. Works the other way too.

If we as a city don't even know where all the major streets and landmarks generally are, how on earth can we be expected to appreciate what we all have and need within this diverse-in-every-sense-of-the-word city of ours?


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> The thing is, there is a really big cultural divide between downtown and the 'burbs. (I'm not calling it the 905... that name is reserved for the actual 905, i.e., the G in GTA.) When a kid from Scarborough ventures 'downtown' on a Saturday night, they mean Yonge & Eglinton... that ain't downtown.
> 
> Seriously, I grew up here and through my teenage years, downtown meant the Eaton's Centre. Ossington? Never heard of it. Dufferin? Yeah, that's that street out by Yorkdale. Ask half my cousins where the Annex is, and they've never heard of it. Ask my ex-in-laws (from Scarborough) about Cabbagetown and saving Riverdale Farm and they have no clue what you mean. But say Agincourt and they know exactly what you mean.
> 
> It worked the other way too. I went to a private school in what is now midtown Toronto. Most of the students there were from Forest Hill, Rosedale, etc. I tell them I live near Don Mills and Finch, and they have no clue where Don Mills road is. (Finch is at least the last subway stop, but they never go up that far.) I would say, well, it's the next major street after Leslie... they don't know Leslie. Bayview, made some sense to them. Heck, it's not just kids... I remember trying to describe where I grew up to my first boss (who lived in the Beaches) and the best he could conceive of was "not that far from the IKEA".
> 
> It goes east/west too. I know my way around Scarborough no problem, but Etobicoke is kind of hazy. Make that very hazy. Works the other way too.
> 
> If we as a city don't even know where all the major streets and landmarks generally are, how on earth can we be expected to appreciate what we all have and need within this diverse-in-every-sense-of-the-word city of ours?


which is exactly why I think it should be separated.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> which is exactly why I think it should be separated.


Once again, let's put that on the list of things that are unlikely to ever happen, particularly given the historical inevitability of amalgamations.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I'm not convinced having less councillors will really solve much of anything. The blood from that will just be messy.


Why do we need two per ward then?

Fewer councilors, I think, will force people to take a geographically broader view of things.


----------



## groovetube

I honestly don't see that as accomplishing very much. Just my humble opinion.

As for amalgamation, I know. Wishful thinking. But it was a brainless idea to begin with. Unless we can be lucky enough to actually get a good mayor which, given the last crop of geniuses, I'm not holding my breath for.


----------



## Max

_Fewer councilors, I think, will force people to take a geographically broader view of things._

I'm with Sonal on this. I think we have too many reps in the city, all waging turf battles, all jostling for media attention, currying favour from the mayor, etc. It's too many people and from here it looks like a case of too many cooks in the kitchen.

Mind you, it won't solve the city's many deeper problems - nor will it address the great divide between the suburbs and the core. But it's a start. The group running the city are part of a top-heavy conglomerate. Things should change up.


----------



## Macfury

Seriously, Sonal, I know the city pretty well--and I know a lot of people throughout the city. They don't have it in for the core, but their perception is that they've been supporting the city without seeing the benefits, which have been lavished on the downtown. They will not bat an eyelash to see service levels overall cut if it means property taxes will stabilize (never mind the cries of "it's impossible" or "Ford lieeeeeed to ya!"). David Miller ran the city for 7 years on behalf of the more urbanized areas of the city. A sudden call that we need a "mayor for everyone" is disingenuous. I never heard the NOW Magazine crowd in the Annex or Cabbagetown complain that Miller had overlooked Etobicoke or Scarborough. 

It's tiring to hear the calling of a state of emergency and calls for Ford's impeachment or calling Ford voters fools or idiots. A lot of people suffered quietly through Miller's reign and this sort of talk is going to backfire monstrously. Ford is a lot smarter than his opponents believe and this period--while it may appear chaotic--is what it looks like when everything gets tossed on the table for a good looking over. It would be necessary regardless of who took office.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> _Fewer councilors, I think, will force people to take a geographically broader view of things._
> 
> I'm with Sonal on this. I think we have too many reps in the city, all waging turf battles, all jostling for media attention, currying favour from the mayor, etc. It's too many people and from here it looks like a case of too many cooks in the kitchen.
> 
> Mind you, it won't solve the city's many deeper problems - nor will it address the great divide between the suburbs and the core. But it's a start. The group running the city are part of a top-heavy conglomerate. Things should change up.


fewer councillors, the allure of cash saved, though it's a drop next to the budget shortfall they face. I'm not against it. To be clear before the atom smasher loses his crap.

I think its really asking a lot to expect a geographically broader view of things. I don't think that's ever going happen regardless of the pruning. 

But yes, deeper problems exist, far out of reach from oily fingers caught in the gravy that's supposed to be vanquished.


----------



## Sonal

I don't disagree with you, MF, about the perception of Miller and his spending decisions. I don't think he was a Mayor for everyone any more than Ford is.

Downtown's issues just aren't the same as suburban issue. I finally saw my first homeless guy in Scarborough, panhandling outside the Walmart superstore, but there's at least 3 'regulars' within a block of me. And what use is clearing windrows in a condominium building? 

But I still think we do, as a city, need a Mayor for everyone if this city is going to actually get it together.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> But I still think we do, as a city, need a Mayor for everyone if this city is going to actually get it together.


As city's go, Toronto has it reasonably well together--it has a lot going for it. But we do need to rationalize costs and spend in areas that will benefit everyone. While the downtown core benefits the rest of the city in certain ways, it's disingenuous to expect people accept the notion that they should be happy to see the trickle-down goodness flowing their way.

One good thing that began in Miller's day was a rationalization of building codes and city by-laws. It's impossible to ensure that all areas of the city receive equal treatment without it, but that process has not yet been completed. 

If we must have more transit, I believe that a busy snowbound city like Toronto should invest in underground LRT or subways. However, protesting a subway line on principle simply because the intention is to run part of it through Scarborough "a transit line to nowhere" is not going to bind this city together. Some money is going to be spent east or west, like it or not.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> One good thing that began in Miller's day was a rationalization of building codes and city by-laws. It's impossible to ensure that all areas of the city receive equal treatment without it, but that process has not yet been completed.


Agreed, though it will still be a few years before that is done--it's a hugely complex issue, with many different types of structures to account for. 

I actually think a good comprehensive transit/transportation plan (that includes roads and parking, by the way--have you noticed every downtown lot is now a condo? And that no one from the burbs can parallel park?) is probably the best bet for this city to come together and benefits to any particular area to spread over more citizens. If people can get anywhere easily, then it matters less where (geographically) money is spent.

Transit City was a pretty good plan. Subways would have been preferable even in Transit City, but I think the frustration is that Ford has cut a reasonably comprehensive much-better-than-we-have, actually-likely-to-happen plan to replace it with a singular subway which he can't quite fund.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Agreed, though it will still be a few years before that is done--it's a hugely complex issue, with many different types of structures to account for.
> 
> I actually think a good comprehensive transit/transportation plan (that includes roads and parking, by the way--have you noticed every downtown lot is now a condo? And that no one from the burbs can parallel park?) is probably the best bet for this city to come together and benefits to any particular area to spread over more citizens. If people can get anywhere easily, then it matters less where (geographically) money is spent.
> 
> Transit City was a pretty good plan. Subways would have been preferable even in Transit City, but I think the frustration is that Ford has cut a reasonably comprehensive much-better-than-we-have, actually-likely-to-happen plan to replace it with a singular subway which he can't quite fund.


To be fair, most of Transit City was funded by dream dollars--it was to take place over decades.

A transit/transportation plan that offers something to everyone--including cars would be a fair sell. Again, the core sees all downtown transit programs as a slam dunk and can't see why the rest of the city doesn't applaud. Road-building? Horrors!

I'm not suggesting this for a moment, but if, for example, a streetcar line were replaced with a subway, car owners would see something improve for them while benefiting the transit system. A program where each side would see an improvement would be a better sell.


----------



## kps

That is what you get when an overgrown village with a mentality to match starts to think of itself as a world class city...keep repeating that lie year after year and pretty soon people start believing it.

If Los Angeles can get it's business done with 15 councillors, why does Toronto need 42?


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Agreed, though it will still be a few years before that is done--it's a hugely complex issue, with many different types of structures to account for.
> 
> I actually think a good comprehensive transit/transportation plan (that includes roads and parking, by the way--have you noticed every downtown lot is now a condo? And that no one from the burbs can parallel park?) is probably the best bet for this city to come together and benefits to any particular area to spread over more citizens. If people can get anywhere easily, then it matters less where (geographically) money is spent.
> 
> Transit City was a pretty good plan. Subways would have been preferable even in Transit City, *but I think the frustration is that Ford has cut a reasonably comprehensive much-better-than-we-have, actually-likely-to-happen plan to replace it with a singular subway which he can't quite fund.*


frustration, yes. And surprise why something this simple is so obvious. And, it wasn't funded by dream dollars.

Are people actually starting to ride that expensive underground on sheppard yet? Just wondering since people freaked out when I referred to the scarborough extension to the one people still don't use that much as the subway to nowhere.

Really surprising given people's sensitivity to overspending billions on something, *cough*, foolish.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> That is what you get when an overgrown village with a mentality to match starts to think of itself as a world class city...keep repeating that lie year after year and pretty soon people start believing it.
> 
> If Los Angeles can get it's business done with 15 councillors, why does Toronto need 42?


have you spent much time in LA?

nothing, gets done


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> A transit/transportation plan that offers something to everyone--including cars would be a fair sell. Again, the core sees all downtown transit programs as a slam dunk and can't see why the rest of the city doesn't applaud. Road-building? Horrors!
> 
> I'm not suggesting this for a moment, but if, for example, a streetcar line were replaced with a subway, car owners would see something improve for them while benefiting the transit system. A program where each side would see an improvement would be a better sell.


We do need at least some road building. Take the Gardiner Expressway--number one, it's falling apart. Number two, there's no other reasonably fast way for getting from one side of the city to the other, and the Gardiner is packed solidly in both directions in the morning and evening rush. Going east/west across the city centre is invariably an ugly drive.

To replace a streetcar with a subway doesn't give us a more comprehensive transit system, though in the case of the St Clair dedicated streetcar track, it would be a vast improvement. That was a bad decision.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Are people actually starting to ride that expensive underground on sheppard yet? Just wondering since people freaked out when I referred to the scarborough extension to the one people still don't use that much as the subway to nowhere.


Rode it during the morning rush a few times from Yonge/Sheppard to Don Mills to get to work. It was pretty full going eastbound, and the trip was WAY faster than it used to be taking the bus as I did back in the day.

There's been a massive amount of condo development around that line too--people are using it more and more.


----------



## groovetube

I would hope so, I took it for a bit on a project that lasted a little while, and I was surprised how lightly used it was in rush hour. You could fire a canon in some of the cars in the peak.

A far cry from waiting about 4 or 5 subways before being able to sardine in on the bloor 

Again, if people are so uptight about spending, given the requirements of the next 10 years, slap me upside the head for speaking out about it. While people start talking about cutting crossing guards, or cutting all night buses people actually take.


----------



## Sonal

This kind of development takes time. Look at 'downtown North York'. For a couple of decades it was an urban wasteland. Now it's packed full of towers of people. The Sheppard subway will spark the same--there is a massive condo complex going up at Don Mills and Sheppard. 

Make fun of Mel all you want, but the man had vision. (Visions of people needing to buy Bad Boy furniture for their condos?  )


----------



## groovetube

I understand. But there is one huge problem

Now, even though I think the city should be split, and that's my opinion, it ain't gonna happen. And because of this, the upper regions, have inherited a big, crumbling expensive mess (downtown), that is about to get really bad.We can thank Mike Harris for that brilliant piece of ingenuity. Have you taken transit west on king/queen/dundas? Have you tried to get on a subway at 8:30 on the bloor line? Perhaps you have and you already know this. Bu there's a serious mess. And that, is about to get waaaaay waaaay worse as more and more of those condos, that you see all those cranes currently still building, all come on line.

I don't profess to know what the best solutions here are. It's only natural for someone who lives down here to be alarmed when I hear rob ford talk about cuts, reduced spending, and then wiping out transit city which, would have been a few drops of water on a fire beginning to burn, and discuss fleecing the province for billions (and private) to build a subway, in order to have "vision" for the next 30 years.

I don't begrudge another region getting a subway, but I keep hearing these right wing lemmings chanting we can't spend more money. Truthfully, I pay a crap load of taxes with a big house and a business downtown, and it means paying more taxes to address these problems, so be it.

But I only ask that we aren't insulted with this monkey exercise of wondering if we need crossing guards or night buses, or if 60 bucks a year in a vehicle reg tax is too much (if you can't afford that with a car sell the flippin thing) Should we cut councillors? I don't know. Actually, I don't care. Sure.

But there needs to be some sanity here that recognizes the immense needs that exists in all the regions, and that -that-, is going to cost money. I hope this forum communication which isn't very good (for me it seems hence the mouthy simpleton joke) was enough to express this, and that a) it doesn't offend anyone in scarborough, and b) it doesn't make someone go apecrap and repeat the same stupidity I've seen in the last few pages.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Have you taken transit west on king/queen/dundas? Have you tried to get on a subway at 8:30 on the bloor line? Perhaps you have and you already know this. Bu there's a serious mess. And that, is about to get waaaaay waaaay worse as more and more of those condos, that you see all those cranes currently still building, all come on line.


I have, actually. Used to commute from Don Mills and Finch to King and Dufferin. 

Have you ever tried to get on the Finch bus from Finch station in the evening rush? 
Or commuted via transit from Scarborough to downtown every day? 

The biggest difference in commuting downtown via transit versus in the burbs is that downtown is way more compact. Took me a long time to get my head wrapped around that when I moved... even when I moved from midtown to downtown. To get from one major street to the next is not such a big distance down here. In downtown Toronto, I always have the option of walking. Even if it's a matter of walking to the next streetcar line or the next subway stop, instead of walking all the way to wherever you are going.

I can walk across the core in about the same amount of time it would take me just to get to Finch subway if I was really, really lucky and the bus actually showed up right away and there wasn't any traffic. In the amount of time it would take me to walk from where I lived to the nearest subway station (Finch--this was back before there was a Sheppard Line) I could walk from Pape station to Bathurst. That takes you a fair way across the city core.

But if I drove--I can be downtown in 20-30 minutes, even in rush hour. (Now if can only find parking.)

I discovered this in the midst of the TTC strike of 1999, when my 2 hour TTC commute (one direction) was first replaced by a 45 minute drive (through city streets) and then a 20-30 minute drive (via the Gardiner/DVP.) Seriously, in about 2 hours I can get about anywhere in the core and even the outer core on foot. 

So does it suck to live downtown and pay a premium on a house and therefore property taxes and not be able to use the transit system that you pay so much for and have to walk instead? Yes. It does. But outside of the core, there is no other option except to drive, and frankly driving is almost always a better option for those that can afford it.

To me, it's a contest of overloaded vs non-existent. I vote in favour of creating something where it's non-existent. If nothing else, it'll spur condo development further away from the core and spread out some of the density. It'll make living in the core less advantageous in a good way, because some of that advantage can be spread around. 

It will take time for people's habits to change to start using new subways... the TTC has served those areas of the city so poorly for so long, it'll take time before it gets seen as a viable option. But taking a long view of infrastructure development, I think it's absolutely necessary.


----------



## groovetube

I'm going to have to disagree here. Placing priority dollars somewhere else isn't what I'm suggesting, and nor do I think it's a plan at all. It's really only going to end up costing more down the road while a "vision" gets realized north of the core, and no one is going to leave the core and magically cause this rebalancing you suggest may occur as a result.

My property taxes are likely lower than surrounding areas. I'm suggesting really doing what needs to be done is going to cost money. And the endless parade of mouthy politicians placating fools with "lower taxes" just isn't going to solve anything in my opinion.

When was that commute to dufferin and king? A whole lot has changed in the last couple years. People now have pretty given up on transit as it has become well known, it's faster to walk. On almost all routes west. That's now. Just wait 5 years...

It isn't about creating a vision to "build it and people will come", it's about fixing a near crisis in transit already beginning to occur. I suggest you have another look.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> My property taxes are likely lower than surrounding areas. I'm suggesting really doing what needs to be done is going to cost money. And the endless parade of mouthy politicians placating fools with "lower taxes" just isn't going to solve anything in my opinion.


You may be in the enviable position where adding a few thousand to your property taxes each year doesn't put your family under water, Got news for you--for many families and property owners it will. Most people cant afford to say; "Go ahead, dig a little deeper into my pocket--it's worth the pain."



groovetube said:


> It isn't about creating a vision to "build it and people will come", it's about fixing a near crisis in transit already beginning to occur. I suggest you have another look.


There is no "crisis" just because the NOW Magazine crowd is having a fit. I have never found the TTC suited my needs or schedule. As a student it occasionally suited my budget. Make your own choices--walk, drive, bike, cab or take transit.


----------



## Sonal

People are coming into the city every day. I'm not suggesting that people will move out of the core (I am sooo never leaving) but rather, that more people can conveniently live outside of the core. That short strip of Sheppard subway intensifying daily, and frankly, there's more room to build to house more people up there than down on Bloor. 

I don't disagree that trying to go east/west by any means in the city is difficult. On the other hand, ever try to get to York University by transit?

If we are going to get more value out of the Sheppard line, it can't be the only suburban subway line... there needs to be more.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> You may be in the enviable position where adding a few thousand to your property taxes each year doesn't put your family under water, Got news for you--for many families and property owners it will. Most people cant afford to say; "Go ahead, dig a little deeper into my pocket--it's worth the pain."


I never said thousands. Now who is creating the crisis now?




Macfury said:


> There is no "crisis" just because the NOW Magazine crowd is having a fit. I have never found the TTC suited my needs or schedule. As a student it occasionally suited my budget. Make your own choices--walk, drive, bike, cab or take transit.


It's right there bub, NOW magazine (which I haven't read in years) has nothing to do with it. Nice try though.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> People are coming into the city every day. I'm not suggesting that people will move out of the core (I am sooo never leaving) but rather, that more people can conveniently live outside of the core. That short strip of Sheppard subway intensifying daily, and frankly, there's more room to build to house more people up there than down on Bloor.
> 
> I don't disagree that trying to go east/west by any means in the city is difficult. On the other hand, ever try to get to York University by transit?
> 
> If we are going to get more value out of the Sheppard line, it can't be the only suburban subway line... there needs to be more.


I hope I was being clear that I wouldn't suggest that the burbs shouldn't be invested in.

Nothing could be further from the truth. But what I am saying is, if Ford is going to make this big tax cut myth nonsense like the rest of the tories who screech tax cuts only to spend more and put us into further debt, I am a little more than concerned that what little money there is goes to investing in the future and not much goes to address a crisis in transit already currently occurring, and is about to get beyond ridiculous. It's really just the beginning and many down here know it.

As I said, investing in "build it and they will come", -and- addressing something that MUST be be addressed NOW, will cost money. And if the macfurys can't afford a few hundred more a year to bring taxes in line with the burbs then perhaps they should consider somewhere where they can afford it.

As it was mentioned before, living downtown isn't cheap, and I wouldn't suggest for a minute the downtown expect other regions to pay for their problems.

and vice versa.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I never said thousands. Now who is creating the crisis now?


A few hundred is not going to fund any major initiatives--like making the transit work for the good people of the Annex. The only thing that will make that work is charging what the ride is worth and building a better system with the proceeds. A system subsidized by the government will only encourage more riders, then require more subsidies to carry the increased load.


----------



## Sonal

I don't agree with a self-funding transit system will lead to money for better infrastructure--every time fares go up, the TTC loses riders. I think government needs to invest in better infrastructure for the good on the city as a whole, which in turn will encourage ridership since it will actually be convenient to use the damn thing.

I do think, though, that there's a significant labour savings available by cutting or reducing ticket booth collectors. Most major systems these days seem to be mostly unmanned and automated stations. I see nothing wrong with that. There's no sense in raising fares if there are greater efficiencies to be found in the system itself.

But property tax in Toronto is low--compare and contrast, we have a low residential tax rate. The assessed value of our housing is high (location, location, location) but the tax rate itself is low.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I don't agree with a self-funding transit system will lead to money for better infrastructure--every time fares go up, the TTC loses riders. I think government needs to invest in better infrastructure for the good on the city as a whole, which in turn will encourage ridership since it will actually be convenient to use the damn thing.


We're told ridership has increased, even as fares have gone up. Charge just enough extra so that you neither increase or decrease the number of riders and use that money to improve the system--a voluntary tax.

(Of course, in a real-world transportation service, the price is decreased to encourage more use while enriching the company).

The KPMG report was also right regarding WheelTrans. It has become a cab service for people who have other options--and I'm not talking about people who are in wheelchairs.

Likewise, double the price of night service after 1:00 a.m.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> A few hundred is not going to fund any major initiatives--like making the transit work for the good people of the Annex. The only thing that will make that work is charging what the ride is worth and building a better system with the proceeds. A system subsidized by the government will only encourage more riders, then require more subsidies to carry the increased load.


macfury, you need to either learn to read posts, or stop being such a child. Seriously.

you seem to have this desperate need, to make this about one person wanting something for themselves. That seems to be about the only way you can relate to anything in this thread.

I have far more concern for the transit areas that I don't take, or no longer take now to be more accurate. The benefits to improving those will benefit me, probably about as much as improving the eglinton transit, or york university, or whichever one we can cite that is in bad need of attention.

When you have learned to step back from the 10 year old politic of "nyah nyah screw you losers' sort of politic that you seem to so admire in rob and doug ford, then perhaps it might dawn on you that this sort of thing benefits no one.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't even really -need- transit, I can walk to pretty much anywhere I need to go, and if I have to carry a load of items I can't carry, I have a car.

If my property taxes went up a few hundred (which would go a long ways btw...) I'm not not going to cry rivers because I don't have a gas guzzler I'm lighting money on fire to keep filling so I go ballistic when someone suggests I pay 60 bucks a year for veh reg tax to increase revenue to pay for the needed improvements.

grow up.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I don't agree with a self-funding transit system will lead to money for better infrastructure--every time fares go up, the TTC loses riders. I think government needs to invest in better infrastructure for the good on the city as a whole, which in turn will encourage ridership since it will actually be convenient to use the damn thing.
> 
> I do think, though, that there's a significant labour savings available by cutting or reducing ticket booth collectors. Most major systems these days seem to be mostly unmanned and automated stations. I see nothing wrong with that. There's no sense in raising fares if there are greater efficiencies to be found in the system itself.
> 
> But property tax in Toronto is low--compare and contrast, we have a low residential tax rate. The assessed value of our housing is high (location, location, location) but the tax rate itself is low.


exactly. Everytime I hear someone down here whine about property taxes I think yeah, go live in the burbs, and whine there about their higher rate.

The truth is, the core isn't cheap, it has many infrastructure requirements especially given the neglect which is really coming to roost, promising people tax freezes, or lower taxes, is plain stupid. As the core needs this, we have to pay the piper, and as you said, if people leave the core because they can't afford it, so be it. There'll be thousands right behind them that can afford it and will.

I'm not excited about paying more taxes, but I'm just not stupid enough to think with our lower tax rate the core can have their cake and eat it too. Which to me seems to be the basis of right wing politicians platforms.

Funny enough on the news last night, I saw our mayor steadfastly repromise his campaign promise that there will be NO services cut!

5 seconds later a clip of the deputy mayor laughing, saying oh yeah there's gonna be services cut. 

Almost as much comedy as SunTv...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> you seem to have this desperate need, to make this about one person wanting something for themselves. That seems to be about the only way you can relate to anything in this thread.


Do I recall: 



groovetube said:


> Have you tried to get on a subway at 8:30 on the bloor line?





groovetube said:


> This, has been what I've been saying from the start (and so have a whole lot of people who agree with you), but it has gotten turned around into, 'well now you know what it's LIKE!!!


I've read pages and pages of whining from you about how the rest of the city outside the Annex and Downtown should be cut off from the true city of Toronto--and suddenly you've become the diplomat? Sorry. Won't cut it.



groovetube said:


> If my property taxes went up a few hundred (which would go a long ways btw...) I'm not not going to cry rivers because I don't have a gas guzzler I'm lighting money on fire to keep filling so I go ballistic when someone suggests I pay 60 bucks a year for veh reg tax to increase revenue to pay for the needed improvements.


Right. And the moment there was even an inkling of property tax rising by _any_ amount, you were calling Rob Ford a liar--even though he never promised that there would be no future tax increases.



groovetube said:


> I'm not not going to cry rivers because I don't have a gas guzzler I'm lighting money on fire to keep filling so I go ballistic when someone suggests I pay 60 bucks a year for veh reg tax to increase revenue to pay for the needed improvements.


What does this have to do with people who are struggling to meet their current tax burden? You can afford an increased tax burden--just shoot the city a cheque. They accept donations.



groovetube said:


> The truth is, the core isn't cheap, it has many infrastructure requirements especially given the neglect which is really coming to roost, promising people tax freezes, or lower taxes, is plain stupid.


Already we're back to groovetube land again--the core, the core THE CORE! We must feed the core!!! Truth is, the infrastructure in the core isn't crumbling at all. Sewer and water are self-funding through utility rates and roads are in decent shape.



groovetube said:


> As the core needs this, we have to pay the piper, and as you said, if people leave the core because they can't afford it, so be it. There'll be thousands right behind them that can afford it and will.


There's a plan! Drive those middle-income and marginal people out of the core and replace then with people who can afford higher taxes! Hell, why not drive them all out of the city so we can get things done?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Do I recall:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've read pages and pages of whining from you about how the rest of the city outside the Annex and Downtown should be cut off from the true city of Toronto--and suddenly you've become the diplomat? Sorry. Won't cut it.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. And the moment there was even an inkling of property tax rising by _any_ amount, you were calling Rob Ford a liar--even though he never promised that there would be no future tax increases.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this have to do with people who are struggling to meet their current tax burden? You can afford an increased tax burden--just shoot the city a cheque. They accept donations.
> 
> 
> 
> Already we're back to groovetube land again--the core, the core THE CORE! We must feed the core!!! Truth is, the infrastructure in the core isn't crumbling at all. Sewer and water are self-funding through utility rates and roads are in decent shape.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a plan! Drive those middle-income and marginal people out of the core and replace then with people who can afford higher taxes! Hell, why not drive them all out of the city so we can get things done?


Oh macfury is mad now.

It's really very simple man o'fury and anger.

I've brought atention to the fact that there is a looming crisis that no one seems to think is important. We seem to think it's a great idea, to spend billions on a build it and they will come idea, while at the very same time, preaching fiscal responsibility, living within ones means, doing what needs to be done.

it's really very simple macfury, all regions require attention. And it's going to cost money. Now I know in la la libertarian 'we'll never have to find out it's BS land it's difficult to understand having to pay for things that have to be done, and you prefer to fall for this nonsense of tax cuts and gravy and all that jazz you so desperately desire, but in the real world, there is crumbling infrastructure that ends up actually costing more if not addressed soon, and it just plain costs money no matter how your libertarian little heart bleeds. 

As Sonal said, transit city wasn't perfect. It didn't give everybody the big lavish subway shiny ball cloud in the sky stuff you neo cons go ga ga for while casting a judgemental eye on those who dare breathe the word 'tax' in order to pay for such things. But it was about as best we can do for now to address as many things we could for a somewhat reasonable cost if it could be considered that.

So yes, I am pointing out something very important to this city in general that's hardly being addressed while an obscene amount of money is proposed on something there isn't even ridership for yet. If I may be so bold as to suggest we need more revenue, to address all regions, so no one is left out, which is something that seems out of reach from your libertarian 'it's all about meeeee' mind, infrastructure simply costs money. Regardless of all the rob/doug fords whispering sweet little neocon nothings into your needy little ear.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Oh macfury is mad now.
> 
> It's really very simple man o'fury and anger.
> 
> I've brought atention to the fact that there is a looming crisis that no one seems to think is important. We seem to think it's a great idea, to spend billions on a build it and they will come idea, while at the very same time, preaching fiscal responsibility, living within ones means, doing what needs to be done.
> 
> it's really very simple macfury, all regions require attention. And it's going to cost money. Now I know in la la libertarian 'we'll never have to find out it's BS land it's difficult to understand having to pay for things that have to be done, and you prefer to fall for this nonsense of tax cuts and gravy and all that jazz you so desperately desire, but in the real world, there is crumbling infrastructure that ends up actually costing more if not addressed soon, and it just plain costs money no matter how your libertarian little heart bleeds.
> 
> As Sonal said, transit city wasn't perfect. It didn't give everybody the big lavish subway shiny ball cloud in the sky stuff you neo cons go ga ga for while casting a judgemental eye on those who dare breathe the word 'tax' in order to pay for such things. But it was about as best we can do for now to address as many things we could for a somewhat reasonable cost if it could be considered that.
> 
> So yes, I am pointing out something very important to this city in general that's hardly being addressed while an obscene amount of money is proposed on something there isn't even ridership for yet. If I may be so bold as to suggest we need more revenue, to address all regions, so no one is left out, which is something that seems out of reach from your libertarian 'it's all about meeeee' mind, infrastructure simply costs money. Regardless of all the rob/doug fords whispering sweet little neocon nothings into your needy little ear.


Uh, we're not in a crisis. There isn't even one looming. That's your number one mistake right there. Typical of the breed.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Uh, we're not in a crisis. That's your number one mistake right there. Typical of the breed.


see there is the problem. You haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

So master atom smasher from the comfort of his gas guzzlin' air con monstrosity speeding (or not speeding given the gridlock) declares there to be no transit problem at all in the downtown, none whatsoever, and the next 10 years, it'll all be just... fine. Even though there's hundreds of thousands of condo units about to go online on top of the other hundreds of thousands just recently built, all on one little streetcar line.

Sure thing pal. Just keep listening to those sweet little neocon nothings ford keeps whispering in your ear, and it'll be all ok.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> see there is the problem. You haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
> 
> So master atom smasher from the comfort of his gas guzzlin' air con monstrosity speeding (or not speeding given the gridlock) declares there to be no transit problem at all in the downtown, none whatsoever, and the next 10 years, it'll all be just... fine. Even though there's hundreds of thousands of condo units about to go online on top of the other hundreds of thousands just recently built, all on one little streetcar line.
> 
> Sure thing pal. Just keep listening to those sweet little neocon nothings ford keeps whispering in your ear, and it'll be all ok.


Clearly there's a crisis in the Annex or you wouldn't be getting so excited. A heads up on transit needs? Sure! City-wide _crisis_? No way.


----------



## groovetube

speaking of drunken word salads, I think you need to clarify what the hell that was.


----------



## Sonal

Here: 
Mayor Ford invites residents to tell him what to keep, cut - The Globe and Mail

You all can tell him what's wrong personally. You've got 5 minutes. 

While you're at it, I have this one tenant who works for the city that really gets under my skin.... if labour cuts need to be made, I'm just sayin'


----------



## groovetube

and here I thought he just said on tv last night, and all through his campaign, that he will not cut services, period.

I'm thinking 'liar' isn't too far off the mark.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Here:
> Mayor Ford invites residents to tell him what to keep, cut - The Globe and Mail
> 
> You all can tell him what's wrong personally. You've got 5 minutes.
> 
> While you're at it, I have this one tenant who works for the city that really gets under my skin.... if labour cuts need to be made, I'm just sayin'


Hmm, a City worker who rents. Doesn't sound like gravy wages to me.


----------



## Macfury

Interesting to see what some people consider "services"--a cultural event, such as a parade, is not a service, for example. They can be cut entirely without affecting service levels. Neither is charging an extra 50 cents to use a swimming pool a cut in service.

Not all spending cuts are service cuts.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> Hmm, a City worker who rents. Doesn't sound like gravy wages to me.


He actually makes about half-again more than I do, spends it on travel and other stuff, saves none of it, and then falls into arrears. 

When he works, he pretty much hangs out at home doing very little. I know, because if I need to see him for something he says things like "Oh, I'm working that day, so drop by the apartment anytime--I'll be there."

Yeah, he's about the worst representative ever for the city union....


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> He actually makes about half-again more than I do, spends it on travel and other stuff, saves none of it, and then falls into arrears.
> 
> When he works, he pretty much hangs out at home doing very little. I know, because if I need to see him for something he says things like "Oh, I'm working that day, so drop by the apartment anytime--I'll be there."
> 
> Yeah, he's about the worst representative ever for the city union....


Which department?


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> Which department?


Animal Services. He's on call, so in theory he can be anywhere.

Still, from my perspective he doesn't seem to work very often, and he has some serious seniority...


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Animal Services. He's on call, so in theory he can be anywhere...


And why shouldn't that be on his back in bed watching satelliteTV? Can't a man earn a living wage?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Interesting to see what some people consider "services"--a cultural event, such as a parade, is not a service, for example. They can be cut entirely without affecting service levels. Neither is charging an extra 50 cents to use a swimming pool a cut in service.
> 
> Not all spending cuts are service cuts.


it's amusing to watch neocons squirm and slyly support raising city revenues particularly on families after just finishing ranting about a slight rise in property taxes.

That pretty much nails it well right there. Raise all the user fees affecting ONLY families and double the ttc fare for those who work shift work, but goddamit DON'T RAISE MY PROPERTY TAXES!


lol.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> That pretty much nails it well right there. Raise all the user fees affecting ONLY families and double the ttc fare for those who work shift work, but goddamit DON'T RAISE MY PROPERTY TAXES!


To be accurate--shift the costs of those things people use to the user wherever possible. And don't call a parade or another damned street festival a service.


----------



## groovetube

that's your opinion. It's pretty numbskull to not fund major events that bring massive numbers ($$) into the city. That simply makes sense.

Though I suppose if you don't like them island people or queers, I guess it makes all the sense in the world eh?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> To be accurate--shift the costs of those things people use to the user wherever possible. And don't call a parade or another damned street festival a service.


How about the library, daycare, parks and rec... are these services?


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> that's your opinion. It's pretty numbskull to not fund major events that bring massive numbers ($$) into the city. That simply makes sense.


If that works, then why not fund the city entirely through parades and festivals? If this works, the organizers should find a way to monetize their events and count on the supposed beneficiaries of the "multiplier effect: to fund these events.




groovetube said:


> Though I suppose if you don't like them island people or queers, I guess it makes all the sense in the world eh?


I didn't think you would stoop this low.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> How about the library, daycare, parks and rec... are these services?


I would call daycare a program, the rest services.

However, even offerings such as libraries can be cut without reducing services. If you have a large depository of unused books sitting somewhere and all the patrons do is use the computers to access the internet, some branches could be cut and consolidated into smaller internet centres, for example. Usages change, as do needs.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If that works, then why not fund the city entirely through parades and festivals? If this works, the organizers should find a way to monetize their events and count on the supposed beneficiaries of the "multiplier effect: to fund these events.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't think you would stoop this low.


apparently our mayor did. Don't play games macfury, we're not 5.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> apparently our mayor did. Don't play games macfury, we're not 5.


I am not Rob Ford. Your accusation is appalling.


----------



## groovetube

I'm sure it is. It's always appalling when something is called out. A little too straight up for you I suppose.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> However, even offerings such as libraries can be cut without reducing services. If you have a large depository of unused books sitting somewhere and all the patrons do is use the computers to access the internet, some branches could be cut and consolidated into smaller internet centres, for example. Usages change, as do needs.


Yes, if that were the case...


----------



## groovetube

in macfurys world, no one uses the libraries anymore, transit in downtown is great, property taxes should be slashed, families should be paying through the ying yang for anything they dare use, and frankly screw you if you get sick and can't afford to get help.

This should clear things up rather quickly.


----------



## Lawrence

Toronto will become another Detroit if this keeps up,
Ever been to Detroit?, You may not like it.

Already people are moving out of the downtown core.

Too many bums and crack heads are moving into the condo area's.

It's becoming a feeding ground for easy pickings.


----------



## Sonal

Someone should let the TPL know that we don't have the busiest library system in the world according to MacFury....


----------



## Lawrence

Apparently the best way to kill Mayor Ford's future is a vote of non confidence,
But will council think of doing it?


----------



## groovetube

or after voters begin to figure out the man is just doofus and a big liar.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Someone should let the TPL know that we don't have the busiest library system in the world according to MacFury....


Busy because of internet use. The floor space requirement is no longer the same for computers as it was for acres of bookshelves.


----------



## groovetube

well, at least you can say he's persistent.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Busy because of internet use. The floor space requirement is no longer the same for computers as it was for acres of bookshelves.


So all those people browsing bookshelves when I'm at the library every week are what, figments of my imagination?

Incidentally, the library does continue to keep up with technology to allow online access to its databases, eBook borrowing, digitizing archival material, etc. And because things can be reserved and sent to any branch, that reduces the number of books needed. But lots of people still browse and borrow the actual physical book. 

Though really, in some sense books take up less floor space than allowing for computer use, in that you can stack a lot of books in the space required for one computer desk.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Busy because of internet use. The floor space requirement is no longer the same for computers as it was for acres of bookshelves.


Why even have a library at all then?
Why not just have a server with virtual use only?

No more cooling centres, Bums can just die in the streets,
Maybe some famous mum or dad to someone that may have invented a cure for something,
Oh well, Who cares, We'll save our pennies and laugh about it in the cemetery later.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> So all those people browsing bookshelves when I'm at the library every week are what, figments of my imagination?
> 
> Incidentally, the library does continue to keep up with technology to allow online access to its databases, eBook borrowing, digitizing archival material, etc. And because things can be reserved and sent to any branch, that reduces the number of books needed. But lots of people still browse and borrow the actual physical book.
> 
> Though really, in some sense books take up less floor space than allowing for computer use, in that you can stack a lot of books in the space required for one computer desk.


Most of the books and information are available from every terminal. Example: Toronto Stars Pages of The Past online vs. 10 cabinets full of microfilm. The interest in books is largely in children's books, current literature and bestsellers. MY local library continues to sell off the books that no longer circulate enough to justify keeping them in the system.

It's not fair to compare a stack of books against one computer kiosk. That book disappears form every library in the system. We may well wind up with the same number of branches, but they will have smaller footprints--or some of the branches will become book repositories while others will go all-virtual.


----------



## Sonal

Every major branch sells books that go out of circulation. When a new hot book comes out, they get hundreds of copies to keep up with the demand. When demand for that book drops, they sell off copies so that they only need to store the number of books they need.

There's 400 copies of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo right now. Give it a few years, and there will be maybe 100 copies--for example, the Da Vinci Code is now down to 125 copies. Why? Demand for that particular book drops.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Every major branch sells books that go out of circulation. When a new hot book comes out, they get hundreds of copies to keep up with the demand. When demand for that book drops, they sell off copies so that they only need to store the number of books they need.
> 
> There's 400 copies of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo right now. Give it a few years, and there will be maybe 100 copies--for example, the Da Vinci Code is now down to 125 copies. Why? Demand for that particular book drops.


Sonal, how much space do you think 400 copies of the Girl With the Dragon Tattoo are going to take up in 5 years? I'm a big supporter of libraries, but physical books are losing their importance.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Sonal, how much space do you think 400 copies of the Girl With the Dragon Tattoo are going to take up in 5 years? I'm a big supporter of libraries, but physical books are losing their importance.


My point was that in 5 years, they will have reduced that to fewer copies. 

And that's not solely because no one wants a physical book (though the libraries are adapting to that) but because that *particular* book will be in less demand.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> My point was that in 5 years, they will have reduced that to fewer copies.
> 
> And that's not solely because no one wants a physical book (though the libraries are adapting to that) but because that *particular* book will be in less demand.


The top 100 bestsellers in 2016, then. They will take up no space at all.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The top 100 bestsellers in 2016, then. They will take up no space at all.


I think you underestimate Luddites like myself.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I think you underestimate Luddites like myself.


I'm a Luddite myself, Sonal, just realistic. I have never read an e-book--not one. My house is crammed with thousands of books, which I love. Visual aesthetics, touch, smell. I have three copies of the same book if the covers are different and beautiful. When the libraries let books go, I'm first in line to buy them.


----------



## groovetube

So we've finally realized that people actually -use- the library? Why is it the right constantly just waves their hand and lies? 

I'm reading my first book with the ipad. I'm giving it a real try. I tried with the iphone, and it was a failure. I can't imagine doing that again. The ipad, well I think it's possible. But I also like the experience of reading a real book, and keeping it in my selves which now I need another one...

pdfs etc. simply doesn't come close to this, and it doesn't, quite obviously from the reality of our library usage, for quite a lot of people.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> So we've finally realized that people actually -use- the library? Why is it the right constantly just waves their hand and lies?


They're not called lies anymore GT, they're called 'Fordisms'.


----------



## groovetube

Right. I noticed Ford is now back-pedalling furiously convincing his supporters that there isn't going to be service cuts, it's "finding inefficiencies".

Right. Lie, then when you're caught in it, simply redefine the lie. The liberals were masters at this I thought, but the right has clearly perfected it.

from the news:


> But if Torontonians aren't willing to make cuts, Ford said, then the only other option will be raising property taxes.


Gee, that's funny. I distinctly recall him promising lower taxes and NO service cuts.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> So we've finally realized that people actually -use- the library? Why is it the right constantly just waves their hand and lies?


I don't want to even address a comment as banal and thoughtless as this, but it does deserve to be showcased. Is this what passes for discourse in some circles?


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I don't want to even address a comment as banal and thoughtless as this, but it does deserve to be showcased. Is this what passes for discourse in some circles?


It merely summarized your constant mewling about how no one really is using the libraries anymore, and they're really something to be phased out.

Sorry once again, if that was a little too close to things.


----------



## adagio

I don't recall it being suggested that ALL libraries be shut down. I think there are some that could be. I know of one barely used that could easily be shut and almost no one would notice.


----------



## Macfury

Unbelievable.


----------



## Macfury

adagio said:


> I don't recall it being suggested that ALL libraries be shut down. I think there are some that could be. I know of one barely used that could easily be shut and almost no one would notice.


Exactly adagio. However, some people believe that doffing even a single book represents a cut in services. One could easily move the few remaining functions carried on by marginal branches to another library without cutting services. I can honestly tell you that many of the libraries I have visited over the past few years are underused. Typically absent now are school kids who once did their homework in libraries and are now using the Internet to access content. There's no after-school crush of users.

Occasionally I see libraries practically begging people to use them as community centres or as computer training centres. This may not be the best use for the buildings or staff time.


----------



## groovetube

And they still try.

Sorry macfury, but don't reduce it to "doffing one book". The response was to what was being suggested, so some backpedalling now is hilarious.

Provide us with some more redefinitions...


----------



## Macfury

adagio, an intersting stat gleaned from TPL:



> TPL says the big jump in library usage is due to a number of factors including, the economic downturn, library renovations* and free wireless internet access in every branch.*


I'd like to see what would happen to numbers if the last item was removed.


----------



## groovetube

you mean to tell me, they improved the library so studying and doing research etc. in one place made sense, and you wanna show then left wing pinkos they can take their studyin' crap and there internet access to go with access to books for school work and cut'em ALL OFF!

Yeah we'll see how smart they are then when you bring that libertarian gavel down! How dare they...


----------



## Macfury

Excellent post groovetube!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Embarrassing.


I would say it is indeed.

After mouthing off about how toronto libraries are goin down, to find out they're the most used in the world?

Yeah I'd hide my tail too...


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Excellent post groovetube!


And an excellent edit MF. Leaves almost no trace!


----------



## groovetube

that's ok, I was emailed his original post 

I can see why he'd wanna cover his tracks. I bet Rob Ford wishes he can edit his campaign promises right about now eh?


----------



## Macfury

I liked your first edit better: the one where you mis-spelled "Embarrassing":


----------



## groovetube

Yeah on the oh so great iPad, I missed erasing the E from excellent to replace it what you originally posted from forum email.

A bit of irony here given your original post where you said "embarrassing". Unfortunately ms fury ( the iPad wants to spell check you to ms fury ha ha ha) everyone subscribed to the thread would have gotten your original post. Lol.


----------



## Macfury

Sure. It all sounds reasonable to me. _(Backs away to a safer vantage point)._


----------



## groovetube

they say the ipad is rather intuitive.


----------



## i-rui

Toronto News: Rob Ford accused of giving mother and daughter the finger - thestar.com


----------



## Macfury

That's great--_The Toronto Star _has been reduced to reporting on Facebook threads. What's even funnier is that the writer contacts the OP and says she "corroborated" her own allegations. Supporting interviews? No: just quoting other people's Facebook comments. 

Welcome to journalism 2011.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> http://www.thestar.com/news/article...of-giving-mother-and-daughter-the-finger?bn=1


Mayor Rob is so photogenic!


----------



## i-rui

The Star article was just an excuse to post the pic. that image of Ford hunched over in a mini van says it all. what an ogre.


----------



## Max

Just you wait... Facegoog+ will replace all that stuffy old journonsense very soon now. Be your own publisher, denier, edutter, corroborator, etc. Fun times for all!


----------



## mrjimmy

While I agree with MF that using a FB post as a source is pretty sketchy, it's no more sketchy than a politician saying 'Canadians have asked us to do 'X'. If they can use this flimsy camouflage to not take responsibility for their own actions, then the Star can use FB.

Besides, if it's infotainment the people want...


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Just you wait... Facegoog+ will replace all that stuffy old journonsense very soon now. Be your own publisher, denier, edutter, corroborator, etc. Fun times for all!


It may well come to that--the _Toronto Star_ is hastening its own demise. 

At one point when reporter ethics meant something, _Toronto Star_ writers were told that they should not use the word "miraculous" to describe any event, unless they could prove that God had participated in the outcome. An editor would have been raked over the coals for approving an article like that even a decade ago. 

They should have just provided a link to Facebook and let the readers be their own journalists.


----------



## Sonal

Oh yes... I am infotained by all of this...


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> While I agree with MF that using a FB post as a source is pretty sketchy, it's no more sketchy than a politician saying 'Canadians have asked us to do 'X'...


...so the Fifth Estate is to be held to the same low standards of political hacks?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It may well come to that--the _Toronto Star_ is hastening its own demise.


Wishful thinking MF. They'll be fine. This is an experiment. Let's see how well it works.

Speaking of ethics, read The Sun lately?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Speaking of ethics, read The Sun lately?


No.


----------



## i-rui

in defence of the Star they say it's an allegation, and they specify the source as a facebook post. They're not trying to cloth it as anything else besides what it is.

this certainly wouldn't be the first time Rob Ford has acted like an ass in public.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> ...so the Fifth Estate is to be held to the same low standards of political hacks?


All's fair... 

Look how well taking the high road against attack ads has worked. The rules are changing. Politicians have sufficiently lowered the bar that this has become the norm. Swim or die.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> No.


Wise. It's trash.


----------



## Max

I'm happy to see the mighty Fifth Estate taken down a peg or two by mixing with the lowly new breed of soc-net types. I find it a bit refreshing - in a way, it's a good deal more honest than the usual pompous tone. I mean, it's not as if the newsies were ever objective, were they? It's always been a stance. Accommodating Facebook into its news flow is simply acknowledging how much ground they have lost by pretending it didn't matter.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> in defence of the Star they say it's an allegation, and they specify the source as a facebook post. They're not trying to cloth it as anything else besides what it is.



I understand. Printing a story gleaned from Facebook is like saying "overheard in the subway."


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I understand. Printing a story gleaned from Facebook is like saying "overheard in the subway."


no it's not. they link the facebook post in the article (so everyone can judge for themselves) and they contacted the mayors office but received a "no comment".

if the mayor feels the need to dispute the allegation i'm sure the star would print that side of the story as well.

this is news because Rob Ford has a history of this type of behaviour in public.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> no it's not. they link the facebook post in the article (so everyone can judge for themselves) and they contacted the mayors office but received a "no comment".


So receiving a "no comment" makes it news? Got it.

Beautiful.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> So receiving a "no comment" makes it news? Got it.
> 
> Beautiful.


no, it's news because (as i said before) he has a history of acting like an ass in public.

The fact that the Star did reach out to get the Mayor's comment shows they did try to cover his side of the story.

and again, they didn't try to pretend it was anything else but an allegation on facebook.

Social media is part of the modern world. Stories DO break out first in that medium (such as Weinergate).


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> So receiving a "no comment" makes it news? Got it.
> 
> Beautiful.


What's getting your goat here MF, the fact that The Star has 'lowered' it's journalistic integrity or that they are attacking the Lord Ogre of Toronto? 

Ford invites this upon himself. Sit back, relax and enjoy the show. If he really is the man you believe him to be, he'll rise above it.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> What's getting your goat here MF, the fact that The Star has 'lowered' it's journalistic integrity or that they are attacking the Lord Ogre of Toronto?
> 
> Ford invites this upon himself. Sit back, relax and enjoy the show. If he really is the man you believe him to be, he'll rise above it.


The fact that they have lowered their journalistic integrity. Essentially now, anything they find on Facebook is news, and becomes reportable if they got to the source and receive a "no comment."

Supposing i-rui, they found a comment on Facebook indicating that an illustrator produced pornography as a sideline. Supposing a rival illustrator commented on FaceBook--"He's done this before." The newspaper calls up the illustrator, who doesn't know what's going on, to confirm or deny the allegation. He manages to mumble: "No comment."

It's a wrap! Ready for print.


----------



## Max

I'm guessing Ford _did_ give the finger.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> I'm guessing Ford _did_ give the finger.


Maybe he did. When Trudeau used to do it, they would report on it when there was proof.


----------



## Max

Time will tell, I suppose.


----------



## Sonal

Fact Checking the Fords

If anyone is interested....


----------



## groovetube

c'mon guys, give the man 6 months...
:baby:


----------



## i-rui

I'll have to break this down by points :



Macfury said:


> Supposing i-rui, they found a comment on Facebook indicating that an illustrator produced pornography as a sideline.


oh no, what have you heard?!?!?, but seriously pornography isn't illegal (well the kind between 2 (or more) consenting adults isn't), so that's not news.

Unless.... that illustrator was also the mayor! Or a city councillor or other very public figure. So for the sake of argument let's say he is....



Macfury said:


> Supposing a rival illustrator commented on FaceBook--"He's done this before."


but wait, that's not what happened here. the "he's done this before" is well documented in Ford's case. He is on record at city hall telling other councillors :

“She’s a joke. She’s a waste of time. A waste of skin."

or calling George Mammoliti "Gino-boy".

But specifically he's done this before to regular citizens in public places.... such as this gem :

“Who the **** do you think you are? Are you a ****ing teacher? … Do you want your little wife to go over to Iran and get raped and shot?"

when he was drunk at a Leafs game.

Ford admits lying to media about drunken outburst - Toronto - CBC News

ofcourse he lied when he was confronted about that night. eventuallly he fessed up. At least he's learned *something* in the meantime by having the good sense to shoot out a "no comment" until they can gauge the political ramifications of giving a 6 year old girl the finger. (although he may want to rethink the "ROBFORD" vanity plate if he wants to drive around flipping people off.....all allegedly of course!)



Macfury said:


> Maybe he did. When Trudeau used to do it, they would report on it when there was proof.


well this is pretty silly. much of the news (and not just the Star) works on disseminating information that initially doesn't have any proof.

Bill Clinton getting a hummer from Monica Lewinsky was just hearsay when the news broke. Was there proof when the US war machine said Saddam had WMD? What about the sexual assault allegations against Julian Assange? (i must've missed your attacks on the news outlets that carried that story).

If the Star had presented this story as a police report, or something that had various eye witnesses, then you may have had a point....but they didn't, and they were straight up that this was simply an allegation by a woman on facebook.


----------



## Sonal

From Rob Ford's Twitter:



> @TOMayorFord Mayor Rob Ford
> A story published that while I was on the phone I made a rude gesture to a fellow driver is not accurate. This is a misunderstanding.


There you have it, straight from the man himself in 140 characters or less....


----------



## groovetube

what he -really- meant, was * u -and- the horse you rode in on.


----------



## i-rui

he meant "give me *ONE* second and i'll be off the phone M'am"


----------



## BigDL

...or merely failed to use all five fingers when he waved.


----------



## mrjimmy

Perhaps he simply uses his middle digit as a spindle to hold donuts. 

As there seems to be more Libraries than Tim Hortons at Spadina and Dundas, the Mother and child were simply witnessing an empty spindle.

Mystery solved.


----------



## groovetube

or maybe he was mad at the "orientals that work like dogs".

(his words...)


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> or maybe he was mad at the "orientals that work like dogs".
> 
> (his words...)


Nah, it's got to be the spindle...


----------



## Sonal

Toronto News: Doug Ford blasts Margaret Atwood over libraries, says ?I don?t even know her? - thestar.com


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Toronto News: Doug Ford blasts Margaret Atwood over libraries, says ?I don?t even know her? - thestar.com


See what you've done Sonal???


----------



## mrjimmy

From the article:



> “Well good luck to Margaret Atwood. I don’t even know her. If she walked by me, I wouldn’t have a clue who she is,” said the councillor and advisor to his brother, Mayor Rob Ford.


The brothers Ford make Jethro Bodine look like a Rhodes Scholar. They should maybe brush up on their 'book lurnin'.


----------



## groovetube

Apparently you have to get elected or shut up!


----------



## Max

For the brothers Ford, not knowing what Margaret Atwood looks like would be a badge of pride.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> See what you've done Sonal???


I made Doug Ford reveal that he doesn't use the library?


----------



## mrjimmy

A little wisdom from Animal House for the brothers:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> I made Doug Ford reveal that he doesn't use the library?


That and so much more!


----------



## groovetube

Saw this on twitter today:



> "Fordstones ... meet the Fordstones ... they're the modern, stone age famileeeeee ..."


----------



## groovetube

Ford admits to phone use while driving, but flipped finger a ‘misunderstanding’ - The Globe and Mail

Hey listen, I may have put people's lives in danger by using my phone, but I did NOT, flip da bird!


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Ford admits to phone use while driving, but flipped finger a ‘misunderstanding’ - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Hey listen, I may have put people's lives in danger by using my phone, but I did NOT, flip da bird!


I'm quite sure he also flipped the mother and child the bird as well. He's certainly stupid enough to do it.


----------



## Macfury

So dumb he hijacked the election from the downtown intelligentsia.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> So dumb he hijacked the election from the downtown intelligentsia.


Oh he has handlers MF. Also, it doesn't take a genius to appeal to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## groovetube

it's a good thing another right wing guy didn't run, like say john tory. Which is very likely why he didn't, since he knew full well they'd both lose to smitherman.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> it's a good thing another right wing guy didn't run, like say john tory. Which is very likely why he didn't, since he knew full well they'd both lose to smitherman.


Tory is just a smidge to the right of Smitherman. Ford would have kicked both their asses.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Tory is just a smidge to the right of Smitherman. Ford would have kicked both their asses.


But we'll never know that, will we.

Tory was the one of the only righties that I could stomach.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> But we'll never know that, will we.
> 
> Tory was the one of the only righties that I could stomach.


Too lefty for my stomach.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Too lefty for my stomach.


Maybe that's why I liked him.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Tory is just a smidge to the right of Smitherman. Ford would have kicked both their asses.


no he wasn't, he was further right as his last mayoral campaign showed, and he would have sucked the life right out of Ford's campaign but both would failed. WHy do you think dumb and dumber celebrated when they found out Tory wasn't going to run?

I guess even tommy boy knew more than you.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Maybe that's why I liked him.


I have a feeling, that Tory is sitting back waiting until ford has finished making a complete fool of himself, and it would be shooting fish in a barrel in the next election.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I have a feeling, that Tory is sitting back waiting until ford has finished making a complete fool of himself, and it would be shooting fish in a barrel in the next election.


Ford will have done that well before the next election.


----------



## Macfury

Tory is just another squishy "progressive." Hope he never comes back to politics.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Ford will have done that well before the next election.


he relishes in it it appears. The best is yet to come.


----------



## Sonal

I don't know that Tory would have taken it in this past election, but he'd have certainly made things more interesting.


----------



## Sonal

Margaret Atwood is ‘a great writer,’ says Doug Ford | Posted Toronto | National Post

First, Rob was misunderstood about the whole flipping the bird thing. Then, Doug was misunderstood about the whole "Margaret AtWho?" thing. 

The brothers Ford really need to work on their communication. Perhaps there's a book about that at the local library.


----------



## mrjimmy

Here's a good read:

Ten Things About Rob Ford - Torontoist


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Margaret Atwood is ‘a great writer,’ says Doug Ford | Posted Toronto | National Post
> 
> First, Rob was misunderstood about the whole flipping the bird thing. Then, Doug was misunderstood about the whole "Margaret AtWho?" thing.
> 
> The brothers Ford really need to work on their communication. Perhaps there's a book about that at the local library.


Buffoons.


----------



## Sonal

I love Twitter...



> @chaptersindigo Chapters Indigo
> Know this woman? Atwood who? Toronto councillor wonders - Arts & Entertainment - CBC News Indigo loves Canada’s libraries! Thru Jul.31 show your library card in-store for 30% off @MargaretAtwood


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> I love Twitter...


30% off? Thanks for that bit of info!


----------



## MacDoc

More Mikey Harris stupidity from the right wing...sounds familiar - say anything to get elected ( no service cuts and no tax increase)
Do the opposite.....is it something genetic in the right wing crowd.........



> MARCUS GEE
> *Is the tide turning against Toronto Mayor Rob Ford?*
> MARCUS GEE | Columnist profile | E-mail
> 
> 
> Published Wednesday, Jul. 27, 2011 8:58PM EDT
> Last updated Thursday, Jul. 28, 2011 11:44AM EDT
> 
> In the first seven months of his four-year term, everything went Rob Ford’s way. His moves to trim minor expenses, cut an unpopular tax and expand the contracting-out of garbage pick-up sailed through with relative ease. Kept under tight control by his staff, he avoided the verbal bloopers and dubious behaviour that marked his 10-year run as a dissident city councillor.
> 
> In the past few weeks, though, things have been going sideways. The mayor’s inexplicable decision to boycott all of Pride Week gave off a whiff of intolerance and alienated many voters. His ham-handed conduct of the budget review at city hall is making even fiscally conservative residents wonder about his leadership.
> 
> City councillors are hearing from voters who are alarmed over all the talk about cutting back on street cleaning, closing children’s attractions such as Riverdale Farm or shuttering some libraries. Reacting to more than 300 messages against library closings, TTC chair Karen Stintz, a leading member of the mayor’s administration, made a point of declaring publicly on Wednesday that she could not support shutting library branches.
> 
> “A week ago somebody came up to me on Mt. Pleasant and said, ‘What the heck is this guy doing?’ ” said North Toronto Councillor Josh Matlow.* “ ‘I voted for lower taxes and no service cuts. That was what I was promised.
> Meanwhile, the mayor is suggesting more taxes and lower services.’ ”*
> 
> If things were not bad enough for the mayor’s camp, his brother, Councillor Doug “The Smart One” Ford, poured oil on the book pile by declaring he would close at least one Etobicoke library in a “heartbeat.” Reminded that novelist Margaret Atwood had joined a save-the-libraries campaign, he declared that “she could walk by me, I wouldn’t have a clue who she is.” It did not help that he has the habit of dropping one of the R’s when he says “libraries,” pronouncing it “lie-berries.”
> 
> The next day, he tried to explain himself to Global News. “What I was saying is, everyone knows who Margaret Atwood is. But if she were to come up to 98 per cent of the people, they wouldn’t know who she was. But I think she’s a great writer and I look forward to her input.” Ms. Atwood must be grateful for the endorsement.
> 
> The very same day that Doug Ford was getting in hot water, his brother the mayor was caught up in the affair that Twitter is calling “fingergate.” A local artist, Ottilie Mason, says she was driving on Dundas with her young daughter when she saw Mr. Ford talking on his cellphone in his van. When she made a thumbs-down gesture to indicate he should obey the law against phoning while driving, she says he gave her the finger.
> 
> The mayor’s press secretary now admits that he was on the phone – “He is a very busy guy; the phone is ringing constantly” – but “he did not give anyone a rude gesture. That’s where we believe the misunderstanding took place.”
> 
> Of course, when Mr. Ford was caught shouting drunken insults at an out-of-town couple during a 2006 hockey game, he denied that too, only to admit it later and apologize. An extended middle finger is not easily misunderstood. Someone is not telling the truth here.
> 
> The mayor’s handlers seem to realize that things are getting out of hand for their guy. As city hall prepared for a big meeting on budget cuts, they sent Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti to the press gallery to try to explain the mayor’s driving lapse and change the channel back to budget issues.
> 
> Unlike many public officials, Mr. Mammoliti explained, the mayor drives himself around in his van and can’t make calls while others chauffeur him. Mr. Ford, he offered, is a “different” kind of mayor.
> 
> He can say that again.


Is the tide turning against Toronto Mayor Rob Ford? - The Globe and Mail

now about that recall petition.....


----------



## i-rui




----------



## dona83

Wow, Toronto does have too many libraries. Vancouver is well served with 1 library per 40,000 people. Toronto can close a third of the libraries and still be ok if you ask me...


----------



## Sonal

dona83 said:


> Wow, Toronto does have too many libraries. Vancouver is well served with 1 library per 40,000 people. Toronto can close a third of the libraries and still be ok if you ask me...


Over 37,000 Torontonians disagree with you.
Toronto's libraries are under threat. Tell city council to keep them open & public #savetpl


----------



## mrjimmy

dona83 said:


> Wow, Toronto does have too many libraries. Vancouver is well served with 1 library per 40,000 people. Toronto can close a third of the libraries and still be ok if you ask me...


Doug, is that you impersonating some guy from Mission wearing a hardhat?


----------



## Joker Eh

Sonal said:


> Over 37,000 Torontonians disagree with you.
> Toronto's libraries are under threat. Tell city council to keep them open & public #savetpl


of course they don't want them closed. You expect employee to say "yep we need to close locations"?


----------



## MacDoc

Just a few disgruntled Torontonians.....




> Live: Overflow crowds at budget debate given separate committee room
> 
> Tanya Suvendrini Lena attended the executive committee meeting with her son Shamduring. Suvendrini Lena said as a physician she has a good income and is willing to pay more taxes to maintain or improve services.
> CARLOS OSORIO
> *More than 280 Torontonians will appear before the executive committee today and Friday, to let councillors know what they think of suggested budget cuts. *The Star's City Hall Bureau will be filing live updates throughout the marathon session.


News, Toronto, GTA, Sports, Business, Entertainment, Canada, World, Breaking - thestar.com


----------



## Sonal

Joker Eh said:


> of course they don't want them closed. You expect employee to say "yep we need to close locations"?


You realize that the now over 38,000 people who signed that thing aren't all library employees or union members, right?

But here, from the library users:
Toronto News: Constituents to Ford: Lose our library and lose our votes - thestar.com

Oh, and while we're at it, a Toronto Sun reader poll.
Poll | Toronto Sun
Currently shows 69% saying "no, there aren't too many branches."


----------



## Ottawaman

> The mayor’s climb-down from this position will not be remembered as one his more graceful maneuvers. A post on his Twitter account—written in the first person by a staffer—explained that the account was “not accurate,” and while not denying that it happened, explained that “this is a misunderstanding.”
> This led many to ask exactly what kind of misunderstanding it could have been. Perhaps it was a culture gap, in which the motorist didn’t realize that in northern Etobicoke, extending the middle finger is actually a good-luck gesture, wishing the recipient fruitful progeny and smooth roads. It might have been a nasty finger-cramp, or a game of itsy bitsy spider gone tragically awry. Eventually, some journalists cobbled together a theory under which Ford thought his finger worked as a cell phone antenna, and that he’d get better reception if he extended it and waved it around a bit. At that moment, he was simply struggling to use voice dialing function. “DIAL… MAMMOLITI! (wave, wave, frown) DIAL MAMMO– ”
> It was that, or Ford had totally flipped off a six-year-old and was trying to fudge his way out of it.
> So it was that a CTV’s Naomi Parness, sitting in his office, tried to ask the mayor what had really happened. The mayor turned pink and started laughing. His press secretary did the only reasonable thing under the circumstances: She started waving her hand in front of the camera. Batra’s plan was to spike the footage, and render it unsuitable for air. We know this, because she explained what she was doing as she did it.
> “You’re done!” she said. (Wave, wave.) “See? You’re not going to be able to use it, because I’m just going to keep talking.”
> 
> CTV aired it anyway.


Losing It | Toronto Standard | News, Media, Art, Business, Technology, Fashion, Events

Funny stuff.


----------



## Ottawaman

Live feed of The Executive Committee makes recommendations on Council's strategic policy and priorities, governance policy and structure, financial planning and budgeting, fiscal policy including revenue and tax policies, intergovernmental and international relations, Council and its operations, and human resources and labour relations.

Executive Committee - July 28 2011 - Toronto - Rogers TV


----------



## dona83

What were Ford's election promises?


----------



## monokitty

I didn't even know people still went to B&M libraries anymore. Hello, computer. iPad. Kindle. iPhone. You name it. Really - IMO, the library's time is close to up.


----------



## Sonal

dona83 said:


> What were Ford's election promises?


Stop the gravy train, the war on the car is over, no service cuts and lower taxes.


----------



## Sonal

Lars said:


> I didn't even know people still went to B&M libraries anymore. Hello, computer. iPad. Kindle. iPhone. You name it. Really - IMO, the library's time is close to up.


There are line-ups to get in at my local library at opening time. 

But in any case, library visits are up, and 18,000,000 visits to the 99 branches in 2010 shows that a lot of people disagree with you.


----------



## dona83

And a majority of Torontonians believed that Ford could cut taxes AND not cut services?? 

The social liberal side of me says libraries are great, they will continue to serve its purpose for decades to come. The fiscal conservative side of me says tighten that belt. Example I don't think night bus service should go either but Vancouver cut night bus service over a decade ago to save costs, then brought it back five years ago with a more efficient system. Buses are packed with very good farebox cost recovery. Run core routes where people can get to as close to where they need to go as they can get and let them taxi the rest of the way.

Shut down redundant libraries and enhance the existing ones. The more people you have sharing one library, the better the collection you can provide and the more services, without the cost overhead of running too many libraries.


----------



## Sonal

He did repeal the Vehicle Registration tax right away... which in turn created a deficit. 

I do agree that efficiencies can be found in all of Toronto services. But Torontoians use their libraries very heavily--this is the busiest urban public library system in the world. Over 72% of the city citizens use the library. 

Among the ways Ford promised to reduce the so-called gravy was to work to cut council. Haven't heard a peep out of him about that.


----------



## Lawrence

Seems that the first thing on the agenda is a pay raise, Then a pay cut for everyone else, It's B.S., If the city needs more money because it is bigger then ask for more from downloading, If it can't get it then become smaller and De- amalgamate.


----------



## Macfury

dona83 said:


> And a majority of Torontonians believed that Ford could cut taxes AND not cut services??


No. Ford said he would cut waste and not cut services. He said he would hold the line on property taxes in his first year, then limit its growth to no more than the rate of inflation in subsequent years.


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> Seems that the first thing on the agenda is a pay raise, Then a pay cut for everyone else, It's B.S., If the city needs more money because it is bigger then ask for more from downloading, If it can't get it then become smaller and De- amalgamate.


De-amalgamation will never happen. It's a pipe dream of a few, but the historical reality is that as cities get bigger and closer together, they amalgamate.


----------



## Lawrence

I don't think a Mayor in Toronto's history has garnered so much attention, If it was a Premiere of Ontario, Then Mike Harris is the only one that has topped him for attention.


----------



## dona83

That makes more sense. I guess I'm going to gain even more haters when I say that closing ~15% of libraries out there is not cutting services, it's cutting waste.


----------



## Lawrence

Sonal said:


> De-amalgamation will never happen. It's a pipe dream of a few, but the historical reality is that as cities get bigger and closer together, they amalgamate.


...and yet we still have all these defunct left over city centre/city halls,
Why isn't Ford selling them to make up for our short falls?

Doesn't make sense,
I think he just wants to punish the Poor, Disabled and Infirm,
He's just a sick dumb f'r like his idol Mike Harris.


----------



## Sonal

dona83 said:


> Shut down redundant libraries and enhance the existing ones. The more people you have sharing one library, the better the collection you can provide and the more services, without the cost overhead of running too many libraries.


For comparison (stats from wiki and the TPL site)

Cardholders in Toronto: 1,250,000 
Cardholders in Vancouver: 275,000

Branches in Toronto: 99
Branches in Vancouver: 22

Items in the collection in Toronto: 11,000,000
Items in the collection in Vancouver: 2,200,000

Population of the City of Toronto: 2,500,000
Population of the City of Vancouver: 600,000

Proportionately, we seem to be pretty much the same. About 4.5 times the number of cardholders, 4.5 times the number of branches, 5 times the collection size, 4 times the population....


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> ...and yet we still have all these defunct left over city centre/city halls,
> Why isn't Ford selling them to make up for our short falls?


They are all in use. Seriously.

We have a really, really big number of city employees. Do we need them all? Truthfully, I don't know. Every department I work with in the City seems stretched and understaffed, but how much of that work is redundant?


----------



## monokitty

Sonal said:


> There are line-ups to get in at my local library at opening time.
> 
> But in any case, library visits are up, and 18,000,000 visits to the 99 branches in 2010 shows that a lot of people disagree with you.


Certainly surprising.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> No. Ford said he would cut waste and not cut services. He said he would hold the line on property taxes in his first year, then limit its growth to no more than the rate of inflation in subsequent years.


He gave the impression that he would cut taxes and not cut services.

That's how he got elected. If he doesn't do it, he won't be re elected. Which suits me just fine.


----------



## Lawrence

Sonal said:


> They are all in use. Seriously.
> 
> We have a really, really big number of city employees. Do we need them all? Truthfully, I don't know. Every department I work with in the City seems stretched and understaffed, but how much of that work is redundant?


IF we have amalgamated and as Mike Harris said "Gotten rid of the red tape and duplication"
Then why have we still got duplicity, We have one City hall downtown,
Surely that's all we need in a one amalgamated city,
All the other towns have just one city hall.

Seems to me that we are not amalgamated at all then.

East York for instance according to the Passport office doesn't exist anymore,
Yet there is still an East York municipal office and city centre.

I was born in East York, But now according to Passport Canada, I was born in Toronto,
East York no longer exists, So if my birthplace no longer exists,
Then why should the municipal offices of East york still exist?


----------



## dona83

Ah but City of Vancouver is just one of 20 cities towns and districts in our un-amalgamated region of Metro Vancouver. 

City of Vancouver - pop. 578,000, 22 branches, 26,270 p/lib
Central Cities (Cities of Burnaby, New Westminster, & Richmond) - combined pop. 448,000, 9 branches, 49,800 p/lib
Tri-Cities (Cities of Port Moody, Coquitlam, & Port Coquitlam, Villages of Anmore & Belcarra) - combined pop. 205,000, 4 branches, 51,250 p/lib
North Shore (City of North Vancouver, Districts of North Vancouver & West Vancouver) - combined pop. 172,000, 5 branches, 34,400 p/lib
South of Fraser (Corporation of Delta, City of Surrey & Langley, Township of Langley) - combined pop. 618,000, 19 branches, 32,500 p/lib
Ridge Meadows (Town of Pitt Meadows, District of Maple Ridge) - combined. pop 85,000, 2 branches, 42,500 p/lib

Total - pop. 2,106,000, 61 branches, 34,500 p/lib
Total (except CoV) - pop. 1,528,000, 39 branches, 39,200 p/lib

City of Vancouver has one main nine storey library and 21 small community libraries, most which are almost not worth going to when you know that the main branch will have everything. However it is great for the kids.

City of New Westminster has a population of 58,000 people and is well served with just one big library. 

Township of Langley has 93,000 people but has 6 libraries as the population is very sparse and divided into six main communities surrounded by vast farmland. In comparison, City of Surrey with 414,000 people has 9 libraries.


----------



## groovetube

dona83 said:


> What were Ford's election promises?


all one needs to do is look at what happened with Larry O'Brien in Ottawa. Almost carbon copy, he even cancelled the transit plans everything.

Total, disaster.


----------



## dona83

While Edmonton and Calgary are moving forward to expand LRT.

The world's turned upside down!!!


----------



## Lawrence

I love Vancouver,
If only I could afford to live there.

It's just a stones throw to my true love...Hawaii.


----------



## groovetube

i'd love to live out west. I'll be on a sailboat around the island in a couple weeks starting from nanaimo. cant wait.


----------



## Sonal

dona83 said:


> Ah but City of Vancouver is just one of 20 cities towns and districts in our un-amalgamated region of Metro Vancouver.


Much like City of Toronto is one city in the unamalgamated region of the GTA, which has a total population of around 5,500,000, and contains the libraries of the roughly 25 or so cities and municipalities within the regions of Peel, Durham, Halton and York. 

But I wanted to keep things apples-to-apples.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> i'd love to live out west. I'll be on a sailboat around the island in a couple weeks starting from nanaimo. cant wait.


When I win the lottery, I'll give you a call.

I'll be the anonymous millionaire with the keys to your boat,
Me, I just want a houseboat.


----------



## Joker Eh

Sonal said:


> You realize that the now over 38,000 people who signed that thing aren't all library employees or union members, right?
> 
> But here, from the library users:
> Toronto News: Constituents to Ford: Lose our library and lose our votes - thestar.com
> 
> Oh, and while we're at it, a Toronto Sun reader poll.
> Poll | Toronto Sun
> Currently shows 69% saying "no, there aren't too many branches."


And how many of those 69% actually went to a library in the last 5 years. I would say less than 5%. They don't need a library on every block. They never said close all library but cut some unneeded ones.


----------



## Joker Eh

Sonal said:


> They are all in use. Seriously.
> 
> We have a really, really big number of city employees. Do we need them all? Truthfully, I don't know. *Every department I work with in the City seems stretched and understaffed*, but how much of that work is redundant?


:lmao: Government employee overworked? :lmao:


----------



## Sonal

Joker Eh said:


> And how many of those 69% actually went to a library in the last 5 years. I would say less than 5%. They don't need a library on every block. They never said close all library but cut some unneeded ones.


72% of all Torontoians use the library, 1.25 million Torontoians have a library card (which has to be renewed annually, by the way), and there were 18,000,000 visits to the 99 branches of the Toronto Public library in 2010. Library usage increased between 2009 and 2010.

They did exactly 0 research to determine which branches, if any, are unneeded and what impact that would have on the community each branch serves, and how to mitigate that impact.

It's really easy to scream "CUT" and really hard to actually look at the numbers and the data and determine which cuts make sense.


----------



## Joker Eh

Sonal said:


> There are line-ups to get in at my local library at opening time.
> 
> But in any case, library visits are up, and 18,000,000 visits to the 99 branches in 2010 shows that a lot of people disagree with you.


Library provide free internet? Cut the internet from the library and see what happens to the numbers. Never mind the visit numbers watch the uproar. Didn't that happen a few years ago.


----------



## Sonal

Joker Eh said:


> Library provide free internet? Cut the internet from the library and see what happens to the numbers. Never mind the visit numbers watch the uproar. Didn't that happen a few years ago.


32,000,000 items were borrowed from the library in 2010. That's not free internet usage.


----------



## groovetube

wow. That's see, 5 divided by... carry the 6, hmmm well that's almost 6 books for every man woman and child in the entire GTA!

take away their internet and we'll show them left wing pinkos!

Sorry I'm cranky tonight.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> wow. That's see, 5 divided by... carry the 6, hmmm well that's almost 6 books for every man woman and child in the entire GTA!
> 
> take away their internet and we'll show them left wing pinkos!
> 
> Sorry I'm cranky tonight.


I like doing the numbers by cardholder... 25.6 apiece!

Noting, of course, that you can't borrow all materials, and you can't borrow anything from the Toronto Reference Library.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> 32,000,000 items were borrowed from the library in 2010. That's not free internet usage.


Nope. A lot of people rely on the library to get them the latest potboilers for free.


----------



## Macfury

Joker Eh said:


> :lmao: Government employee overworked? :lmao:


Overparked, maybe.


----------



## groovetube

just watched as ford moved to limit the Q time to only a minute. Barely enough time to do anything.

Watch for the next move to drop the time to a minute and a half to speak.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> just watched as ford moved to limit the Q time to only a minute. Barely enough time to do anything.
> 
> Watch for the next move to drop the time to a minute and a half to speak.


It was Mammoliti's doing. Ford's little toady boy.


----------



## groovetube

oh to have the forum rules relaxed for a post or two.


----------



## MacDoc

There is always the worth a thousand words approach....










ye olde tar and feathering....subject of said can be left to imagination....


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

All of this had wringing and tearing of hair shirts by some EhMacers and entitled citizenry is really something to behold. Definitely worth it to have voted for Rob Ford. Next stop: sackcloth and ashes (provision of sackcloth is no longer a subsidized Toronto service, alas, but you can pick up free ashes as part of the privatized trash removal).


----------



## groovetube

yeah sarcasm that nails it really irks the atom smasher! How dare they balk! 

Do you have any idea how ironic your post is after that? Or perhaps you're playin us. Either that...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> yeah sarcasm that nails it really irks the atom smasher!


Who used sarcasm "that really nails it"? Would be interesting to see.


----------



## groovetube

I give up.... where?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> All of this had wringing and tearing of hair shirts by some EhMacers and entitled citizenry is really something to behold. Definitely worth it to have voted for Rob Ford. Next stop: sackcloth and ashes (provision of sackcloth is no longer a subsidized Toronto service, alas, but you can pick up free ashes as part of the privatized trash removal).


I'm impressed at how the Ford boys are beginning to rally the troops. Better hand wringing than apathy, which is what they really want. The more bluster and buffoonery, the more mobilization.

The Fords really make fiscal conservatives look bad. I'm sure the higher conservative powers in this Country are sending in their spin doctors and image consultants to attempt to tranquilize the great Lummox.

I say keep going boys! The cracks are beginning to widen. You will be the architects of your own undoing. 

Oh and as a side note, your post really smacks of a _getting even_ kind of sentiment MF. Is that what it means to be a Ford supporter?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Oh and as a side note, your post really smacks of a _getting even_ kind of sentiment MF. Is that what it means to be a Ford supporter?


Getting even with who?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Getting even with who?


With the hand wringers and hair shirts. Anyone who is not _you._


----------



## groovetube

Just watch the sneering on doug fords face, the don cherry "left wing pinko kooks" thing.

Here's the Ford problem in a nutshell. They're morons. You see, many conservatives think that all you have to do is promise the world on low taxes and no service cuts and BAM! you're elected. Then you just steamroller everything to "get things done" (which usually means rape all programs to line the pockets of some big corporate interests as one speaker pointed out...) but, there's a missing ingredient in the Ford thing...

Intelligence. Now I never liked Mike Harris, or Harper. Certainly not their minions who were well know to be buffoons and lie without any shame whatsoever. But the real difference between the Fords and Harris/Harper is the Fords are truly, stupid. Harris/Harper are shrewd calculating politicians who are not stupid (well not as stupid as I wish they were but...) You may get away with pulling the wool over the eyes of staunch conservative 905, but this is Toronto we're talking about, and Toronto will only entertain pure stupidity for so long.

This is where I will agree with Sonal that even Lastman was far more intelligent, even though my fingers hurt typing that out...  Which is likely how he ended up being mayor as long as he was. (that and the lack of any credible opponent.)


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> With the hand wringers and hair shirts. Anyone who is not _you._


No, just noting the histrionics, which were absent from those opposing David Miller during his tenure. _[edit: see above]_. Opposition, yes, but not this. It's such a stark contrast in attitudes. One could argue that Ford is "getting even" with David Miller I suppose, for helping to foster such a sense of dependence.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> No, just noting the histrionics, which were absent from those opposing David Miller during his tenure. _[edit: see above]_. Opposition, yes, but not this. It's such a stark contrast in attitudes. One could argue that Ford is "getting even" with David Miller I suppose, for helping to foster such a sense of dependence.


If you say so but it feels more like the hand wringing of the wicked witch sneering 'We'll get you my pretties'.

But you know, it's the sentiment that some would say was manufactured by the right to win the election. Creating divisions. The unions are taking money out of your pockets! The downtown elites aren't like you and I! Special interest groups are pillaging us! It's a soundbite. It's a call to action without substance. This house of cards is wobbling.


----------



## groovetube

I wasn't aware that David Miller was doing the divide and conquer thing, perhaps that's why the lack of histrionics?

That sort of thing generally results in a lot of noise. Which I have to guess is what Ford truly wanted. He seems to enjoy the "yeah screw you lefties I'll show you!!!!"

Great way to lead a city.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> He seems to enjoy the "yeah screw you lefties I'll show you!!!!"
> 
> Great way to lead a city.


For sure he does. He, his brother and their toady boy Mammo.

But they are also idiots. We definitely have that going for us.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> If you say so but it feels more like the hand wringing of the wicked witch sneering 'We'll get you my pretties'.
> 
> But you know, it's the sentiment that some would say was manufactured by the right to win the election. Creating divisions. The unions are taking money out of your pockets! The downtown elites aren't like you and I! Special interest groups are pillaging us! It's a soundbite. It's a call to action without substance. This house of cards is wobbling.


The divisions have always been there. Miller favoured a left-based agenda openly. I don't know how many of his speeches I listened to where he promised to bring "good union jobs and other jobs" to Toronto. However, prior to this only one side of the division was concerned about it, and they never had the ear of David Miller. 

I voted for Ford on the belief that he would scrap the vehicle tax, hold the line on taxes in the first year, and then not raise taxes by more than inflation subsequently. I suspect I'll get that. 

I was never concerned about services, since I don't consume many of them beyond roads and schools. I believe that many of the departments at City Hall could be sent off into space wholesale without affecting services.


----------



## Ottawaman

"Rob Ford sleeps through today's deputations"


----------



## The Doug

Quick, someone wave some onion rings under his nose!


----------



## Sonal

To be fair, it was a 22 hour long process...


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> To be fair, it was a 22 hour long process...


Don't let that get in the way of a photo op. Seriously, even the gesture of listening to citizen speeches is an honourable one.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Don't let that get in the way of a photo op. Seriously, even the gesture of listening to citizen speeches is an honourable one.


Yes, and it would be cool to believe that it will have any impact...

There was a big laugh apparently when some crossing guards started talking about the dangers of driving while on the cell phone. Mayor Ford was not in the room, though. (Deputy Mayor was on deck for that.)


----------



## dona83

Sonal said:


> Much like City of Toronto is one city in the unamalgamated region of the GTA, which has a total population of around 5,500,000, and contains the libraries of the roughly 25 or so cities and municipalities within the regions of Peel, Durham, Halton and York.
> 
> But I wanted to keep things apples-to-apples.


A city of 578,000 vs. a city of 2.5 million is not exactly apples to apples, maybe McIntosh apples to Spartan apples. Clearly different types of apples.

Metro Vancouver as a whole has about the same population as Toronto, so now it's Fuji apples to Spartan apples.  Some people can't tell those apples apart.

But I guess Metro Vancouver vs. GTA would be Fuji apples to Fuji apples.


----------



## Paddy

I honestly never thought I'd be sitting here wishing that John Tory was the mayor. 

Toronto News: City Alliance urges investment in environment, immigrant services - thestar.com

Anything but the evil triplets Ford, Ford & Mammoliti.


----------



## mrjimmy

Paddy said:


> I honestly never thought I'd be sitting here wishing that John Tory was the mayor.
> 
> Toronto News: City Alliance urges investment in environment, immigrant services - thestar.com
> 
> Anything but the evil triplets Ford, Ford & Mammoliti.


I feel the same way. The 'I want my vote back' sentiment is going to grow I'm sure. 

Be thankful. The Fords are beginning to shake up voter apathy and get more people involved in the process. They treating people like they're stupid because they (The Fords) are stupid. People are catching on.

The sideshow routing is beginning to wear thin. They'll be carrying them out screaming 'the gravy! We've got to find the gravvvvvvvyyyyyyyyy'.....


----------



## Sonal

Sigh. I know Mammoliti. He's a politician in every sense of the word.


----------



## whatiwant

mrjimmy said:


> The sideshow routing is beginning to wear thin. They'll be carrying them out screaming 'the gravy! We've got to find the gravvvvvvvyyyyyyyyy'.....


I'm thinking that by now whatever gravy they've found, has been slathered over fries from the chip truck out front on Queen St. and consumed with zeal.


----------



## mrjimmy

jawknee said:


> I'm thinking that by now whatever gravy they've found, has been slathered over fries from the chip truck out front on Queen St. and consumed with zeal.


Imagine the Ford bros when they were younger lighting blue angels and having belching contests. 

I'm sure gravy has played an integral role in their lives from day one.


----------



## Sonal

This is a good report of yesterday's marathon meeting.
The Grid TO | I love the smell of democracy in the morning...


----------



## Sonal

And for all the people only use the library for the free internet, there was this deputant.



> There was 14-year-old Anika Tabovaradan, who wept through the entirety of her speech because of her fear of public speaking, explaining that the computers at Willowdale library are her only chance to do homework: “I’m no taxpayer but by working on the computers at the library, one day I can get a good job”—at which full grown men and women in the press gallery cried. (Really.)


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> And for all the people only use the library for the free internet, there was this deputant.


Good for her, Sonal ................. and to you. Excelsior, mon amie.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And for all the people only use the library for the free internet, there was this deputant.


Which is why I was saying, perhaps it's time to create some computer-only libraries and some libraries focusing on books.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> Good for her, Sonal ................. and to you. Excelsior, mon amie.


Dr.G., quite seriously, I have been increasingly moved by how this has all turned out. How often do you see thousands of people coming out of the woodwork in passionate defense of an institution such as the library?

So many people are telling stories about what the library does for them and means to them. It's amazing.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Dr.G., quite seriously, I have been increasingly moved by how this has all turned out. How often do you see thousands of people coming out of the woodwork in passionate defense of an institution such as the library?


Since the time of Benjamin Franklin?


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Dr.G., quite seriously, I have been increasingly moved by how this has all turned out. How often do you see thousands of people coming out of the woodwork in passionate defense of an institution such as the library?
> 
> So many people are telling stories about what the library does for them and means to them. It's amazing.


This is exactly why I said good for you. Yes, it is amazing and it is a worthy fight, win or lose. Bonne chance, mon amie. :clap::clap::clap::clap:


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Dr.G., quite seriously, I have been increasingly moved by how this has all turned out. How often do you see thousands of people coming out of the woodwork in passionate defense of an institution such as the library?
> 
> So many people are telling stories about what the library does for them and means to them. It's amazing.


I agree. We have to thank the Fords for this.

(and you and that writer - whatshername)


----------



## Macfury

Would this be a fair precis of the submissions?

a) don't cut my program
b) don't cut my program and raise everyone's taxes to pay for it
c) don't cut my program and raise my taxes to pay for it.

Did anyone say: "Don't cut my program. I'll pay for it personally?"


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Which is why I was saying, perhaps it's time to create some computer-only libraries and some libraries focusing on books.


I actually have no problem in principle with making changes to the way the library operates--I do think that it's an inevitable result, though I'm not sure that day is here right now. On the other hand, I also do think that the library itself is very good at continuing to evolve and adopt different technologies to increase its usage. Already, you can borrow eBooks without physically entering the library. 

On the other hand, I still see a lot of physical books in use. I'm at a large library weekly as a volunteer, and at my very tiny local library 3-4 times a month, and there's still a whole lot of physical books being browsed, borrowed and returned. 

But I do have a really, really big problem with waving a shallow-analysis report and saying "let's close some branches, surely we don't need all of them" without even a cursory look at actual library usage, impact on the community or even whether there is support from the voters. 

I mean shoot, Doug Ford went on record saying nobody would miss the Northern Elms branch in his Ward, and his own voters say differently.... shouldn't he have asked first?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Would this be a fair precis of the submissions?
> 
> a) don't cut my program
> b) don't cut my program and raise everyone's taxes to pay for it
> c) don't cut my program and raise my taxes to pay for it.
> 
> Did anyone say: "Don't cut my program. I'll pay for it personally?"


There was also a lot of "Don't cut my program--it makes money for the City" and "Don't cut my program--it saves lives" and just a wee little bit of "Don't cut my program--cut council."


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Don't let that get in the way of a photo op. Seriously, even the gesture of listening to citizen speeches is an honourable one.


so what's the point of holding that meeting if he's going to sleep through what's being said? if he was too tired he should have adjourned it.

ultimately i know that the reality of that session had *zero* to do with actually listening to what was being said, but was simply lip service to say that they *did* listen.

Now they will try to slash & burn, but so far there hasn't been the acceptance by other councillors to follow Ford on every vote, and i imagine the negative press will also stop the extreme cuts his posse want to enforce.

the next 3 1/2 years will be Toronto grinding to a halt. Little will get done, and whoever replaces the oaf will have to spend a fortune to kick start everything back to speed.

Just in time for the Pan Am games in 2015. The city will NOT be prepared, and will be an absolute mess to try to live and work in during that time.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> There was also a lot of "Don't cut my program--it makes money for the City" and "Don't cut my program--it saves lives" and just a wee little bit of "Don't cut my program--cut council."


The lunatic right really needs people to know it's merely people looking for handouts. If they ever let go of this and actually saw things how they really are, they're entire position would collapse.

So, they just keep repeating it, over and over, like a machine. Hoping, someone will listen to them. Some will, until often it becomes clear what a sham it is.

And so it goes.


----------



## Lawrence

There seem to be a trend happening here...
First it's where the homeless are lining up to find a place to live,
Now it's where the homeless go in the day time to do research on library computers.

What is it with the homeless?
Why is Ford so hell bent to make their lives a misery?


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> There seem to be a trend happening here...
> First it's where the homeless are lining up to find a place to live,
> Now it's where the homeless go in the day time to do research on library computers.
> 
> What is it with the homeless?
> Why is Ford so hell bent to make their lives a misery?


The homeless don't pay property taxes. d'uh.


----------



## groovetube

yes, so, if you need to degenerate a topic into a slam dunk "why the hell should I pay for..[insert program here]", just say something about the homeless, handouts and socialists, and people's eyes should glaze over and just take what you say as true.

Rinse, and repeat.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> The lunatic right really needs people to know it's merely people looking for handouts. If they ever let go of this and actually saw things how they really are, they're entire position would collapse.


Their position wouldn't collapse--but I'll bet you would!


----------



## groovetube

removing the basic premise and it wouldn't collapse?

Sure thing macfury. lol.

The minute you hear a right winger go off on about the homeless, handouts, and socialism, you -know- they're lying.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> removing the basic premise and it wouldn't collapse?
> 
> Sure thing macfury. lol.
> 
> The minute you hear a right winger go off on about the homeless, handouts, and socialism, you -know- they're lying.


Then you collapse.


----------



## groovetube

it'll be ok. Really.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> it'll be ok. Really.


No, apparently, until Ford is recalled.


----------



## groovetube

That would be good to evert his uncontrolled urges to spend and destroy city services. He promised not to do either.

But he promised you a trinket, so it's all ok.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> That would be good to evert his uncontrolled urges to spend and destroy city services. He promised not to do either.
> 
> But he promised you a trinket, so it's all ok.


And 60 bucks don't forget.


----------



## groovetube

Yeah eh a steak dinner wid da trimmings!


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> Yeah eh a steak dinner wid da trimmings!


That's what the 60 smackers is fer!


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> No, apparently, until Ford is recalled.


FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily

That sounds about right.


----------



## Macfury

The skyyyyyyyyy is falling, isn't it boys? I love the attitude. "Do what you want, Mr. Mayor. Just don't cut my programs--I'm too used to having other people pay for what I like. Cuz you know, the program I like _(insert name of entitlement here)_ makes Toronto what it is."


----------



## groovetube

macfury apparently has trouble reading.

Since I pay a crap load of taxes with my large detached house and a business, no one is paying for anything for me thank you.

So, I'm not sure what you are talking about in terms of "cutting MY programs" that other people are paying for. Once again, the desperate need to frame this as a bunch of homeless hippies looking for a handout.

Once again, lying.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> macfury apparently has trouble reading.
> 
> Since I pay a crap load of taxes with my large detached house and a business, no one is paying for anything for me thank you.
> 
> So, I'm not sure what you are talking about in terms of "cutting MY programs" that other people are paying for. Once again, the desperate need to frame this as a bunch of homeless hippies looking for a handout.
> 
> Once again, lying.


+1
Yep.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> macfury apparently has trouble reading.
> 
> Since I pay a crap load of taxes with my large detached house and a business, no one is paying for anything for me thank you.
> 
> So, I'm not sure what you are talking about in terms of "cutting MY programs" that other people are paying for. Once again, the desperate need to frame this as a bunch of homeless hippies looking for a handout.
> 
> Once again, lying.


If I'm to understand MF's position, he doesn't wish to contribute through taxation, regardless how infinitesimal, anything that he won't benefit from. He has no desire to contribute to the greater good of the community. Everyone is either suckling the public teat or ripping him off somehow. There is no grey area. 

Have I got this right?


----------



## groovetube

basically. However there's more to it. He would prefer the "sucking the public teat" be allowed to corporate execs salivating at lining their pockets with bonuses etc., on the upcoming boondoggles he has planned.

Sort of like the suckers who buy that lowering corp taxes more and taxes on the upper crust rich will somehow, create jobs.

There' one born every minute.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> If I'm to understand MF's position, he doesn't wish to contribute through taxation, regardless how infinitesimal, anything that he won't benefit from. He has no desire to contribute to the greater good of the community. Everyone is either suckling the public teat or ripping him off somehow. There is no grey area.
> 
> Have I got this right?


Of course you don't have it right. When I feel my tax money is being well-managed I say little or nothing.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Of course you don't have it right. When I feel my tax money is being well-managed I say little or nothing.


_'Of course'!_ I love it!

Can you better explain yourself as to what constitutes 'well-managed'? Please cite specific examples.


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> Of course you don't have it right. When I feel my tax money is being well-managed I say little or nothing.


Which would be, let me guess... never?


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Which would be, let me guess... never?


Well, for it to be well-managed, it would just about never be spent on things that MacFury doesn't use or could afford to pay directly out of pocket for his individual share.

So if they maintained the roads, plowed the snow, and kept some police, fire and EMT services for emergency use... that would be sufficient.


----------



## groovetube

well managed. Under Ford?


ha ha ha ha ha!

A fool and his money... y'know


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Which would be, let me guess... never?


Not at all true. However, I have no truck with the floppy, happy world of a groovetube where money flows like water and as long as he's happy with how his money is spent, why shouldn't everyone else be happy too?


----------



## Max

How very silly of you. You two have never even met, yet you've each harvested a grab-bag of lazy-headed terms to allegedly describe the other. He's floppy and happy, is he? At least that's new. Don't forget your old dependable 'squishy.'

Mind-boggling.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> How very silly of you. You two have never even met, yet you've each harvested a grab-bag of lazy-headed terms to allegedly describe the other. He's floppy and happy, is he? At least that's new. Don't forget your old dependable 'squishy.'
> 
> Mind-boggling.


We can take 'em both out for beers, sit back, and watch the sniping happen live.

I'll get on the Twitter. Can you set up a webcam? You film, I'll tweet.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> How very silly of you. You two have never even met, yet you've each harvested a grab-bag of lazy-headed terms to allegedly describe the other. He's floppy and happy, is he? At least that's new. Don't forget your old dependable 'squishy.'


He's not squishy. Floppy and happy is really good, don't you think?



Sonal said:


> We can take 'em both out for beers, sit back, and watch the sniping happen live.
> 
> I'll get on the Twitter. Can you set up a webcam? You film, I'll tweet.


I would probably feel so hopeless I would beat the crap out of him and get thrown in the slammer. No thanks.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I would probably feel so hopeless I would beat the crap out of him and get thrown in the slammer. No thanks.


what's the jail sentence for smashing someone's atoms??


----------



## groovetube

first I'm the one who's whining my programs are being cut and someone else is paying for them.

Now, money flows like water (I freaking wish!) and I'm floppy happy.

There must be SOME reason I see the benefits of many of our programs and services and why I'm not content to sit back while some liar takes all that investment and pours it down some other drain that'll benefit probably nobody.

It's quite perplexing I would imagine.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> what's the jail sentence for smashing someone's atoms??


It really is quite painless--but they scream anyway.


----------



## Max

Sonal, I dunno. I think it would me like matter meeting antimatter. Perhaps it's best to keep these two entities apart!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> There must be SOME reason I see the benefits of many of our programs and services and why I'm not content to sit back while some liar takes all that investment and pours it down some other drain that'll benefit probably nobody.


Yes. The reason is that you are wrong about it.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> How very silly of you. You two have never even met, yet you've each harvested a grab-bag of lazy-headed terms to allegedly describe the other. He's floppy and happy, is he? At least that's new. Don't forget your old dependable 'squishy.'
> 
> Mind-boggling.


I may consider his position silly, untruthful, and delusional. But I haven't a clue whether he is personally "squishy", a poor guy wanting handouts, a rich b* who doesn't care about others, etc etc.

The best I can figure is someone who lives slightly out of the core and doesn't fully comprehend the reasons for such investments because it doesn't seem to directly relate to him (could you imagine if we all ala cart'ed our property taxes...) and considers an attack on our current mayor as a carte blanche acceptance of the alternatives.

The whole, 'you're either with us, or against us' thing that has gotten us into a whole heap of trouble as it is.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Yes. The reason is that you are wrong about it.


well you've done a rather P poor job of addressing that so, you need to resort to characterizing me and my life to explain why I could possibly have such a position.

FAIL.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Not at all true. However, I have no truck with the floppy, happy world of a groovetube where money flows like water and as long as he's happy with how his money is spent, why shouldn't everyone else be happy too?


Still waiting to hear what you consider to be 'well-managed' in terms of your tax dollars.


----------



## Macfury

Simply put: identifying something that makes you feel bad and requires the application of other people's cash to make you feel better about it is not a moral argument for other people to contribute.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Simply put: identifying something that makes you feel bad and requires the application of other people's cash to make you feel better about it is not a moral argument for other people to contribute.


What was that in response to?


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> It really is quite painless--but they scream anyway.


You should get in on the Live Drive with John Tory,
His blog would really get your blood pumping,
This thread is childs play compared to that stuff


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> You should get in on the Live Drive with John Tory,
> His blog would really get your blood pumping,
> This thread is childs play compared to that stuff


I don't have much interest in John Tory or his show. Too mild for my taste.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> I don't have much interest in John Tory or his show. Too mild for my taste.


That's too bad, I've gotten some real whoppers on the line recently,
I always find it funny how people thought that Mike Harris was a saint.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> That's too bad, I've gotten some real whoppers on the line recently,
> I always find it funny how people thought that Mike Harris was a saint.


He was no saint, but he revived Ontario's economy in a hurry. Now Ernie Eves as Premiere--that was another matter. A tool.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> He was no saint, but he revived Ontario's economy in a hurry. Now Ernie Eves as Premiere--that was another matter. A tool.


Yes, He certainly did, Let's recap,
He killed a lot of people in Walkerton, He Introduced workfare, He sold a major highway,
He let people build houses on the fragile moraine....the list goes on.

Yeah sure, A real red nosed saint...Not a saint for sure.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> What was that in response to?


I think it's speaking in incomplete sentences now.

Did you actually expect anything of value in response? :lmao:


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I think it's speaking in incomplete sentences now.
> 
> Did you actually expect anything of value in response? :lmao:


I knew it would get dodged, but I tried anyhow.


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> Yes, He certainly did, Let's recap,
> He killed a lot of people in Walkerton, He Introduced workfare, He sold a major highway,
> He let people build houses on the fragile moraine....the list goes on.
> 
> Yeah sure, A real red nosed saint...Not a saint for sure.


Harris didn't rev the economy. You'd have to be pretty delusional to believe that.

Though like other conservatives I see, he applied the usual right wing lower revenues and spend to the point where you're going into debt despite the hot economy. Which we found out after they were tossed.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> Harris didn't rev the economy. You'd have to be pretty delusional to believe that.
> 
> Though like other conservatives I see, he applied the usual right wing lower revenues and spend to the point where you're going into debt despite the hot economy. Which we found out after they were tossed.


But...I divest, We are talking about Mike Harris's apprentice, Rob Ford,
After all, It is Mike Harris that is whispering into Ford's ear.

If Ford was smart, He'd legalize street hockey,
Then he wouldn't need costly speed bumps to slow down traffic on our back streets,
We'd have our children acting like speed bumps, What a bonus, Free speed controls.

Then he could sell all the school yards and parks to condo developers,
In the true P.C. fashion, We'd have a Detroit styled city in no time,
Then all the people would move out of the downtown and we'd have hot real estate for the corporations.

Now that would be fantastic, Ford could balance his budget and get a bullet proof car at the same time.

{Insert sarcasm here}


----------



## groovetube

no need, getting rid of the crossing guards will provide plenty of speed bumps for goofs driving minivans talking on their cellphones.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> I think it's speaking in incomplete sentences now.
> 
> Did you actually expect anything of value in response? :lmao:


It's a sunny day, The patio's are full...
Who wouldn't be sitting outside with a pint right about now.

I keep coming back inside to cool off


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> no need, getting rid of the crossing guards will provide plenty of speed bumps for goofs driving minivans talking on their cellphones.


Actually I find it's the BMW drivers are the worst,
Why is that, Don't BMW salespersons tell these people that they aren't the king of the road?


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> no need, getting rid of the crossing guards will provide plenty of speed bumps for goofs driving minivans talking on their cellphones.


Oh...Wait...I just got that,
Mayor Ford was caught recently talking on his cellphone while driving a minivan, 
Is that what you meant?

Well, He wasn't caught, But he did admit it while he was reporting about being threatened,
Yet he wasn't charged, Amazing, I want to be mayor too so I can't be charged either.


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> Actually I find it's the BMW drivers are the worst,
> Why is that, Don't BMW salespersons tell these people that they aren't the king of the road?


it seems like a real generalization, but yeah. You're right. I find the worst are the larger BMW SUV ones. A mini van/BMW thing combined 

And yes that was what I was referring to, ford on his cell and the crossing guards.

There's simply NO excuse for cellphoning and driving. I'm uber connected in what I do, and if I can follow the rules, so can he.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> He was no saint, but he revived Ontario's economy in a hurry. Now Ernie Eves as Premiere--that was another matter. A tool.


That's not revival, You don't sell assets to make a profit for a province,
I'm just glad he didn't get a chance to sell our utilities and beer/liquor stores.


----------



## MacDoc

> Originally Posted by *Macfury*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _He was no saint, but he revived Ontario's economy in a hurry. _


what a crock - Rae didn't cause the recession and Mikie didn't end it and Mikie still was in hole despite trying to cover it up by selling off the 407 for chump change.......and killing a few people by cutting water quality services......

That's just right wing dogma not good management.......

Bill Davis was the last small c Conservative in Ontario and HE managed it well.

Canada is suffering from Dutch disease thanks in part to misguided corporate welfare for the oil farts.

That is killing manufacturing in Ontario and Quebec due to the high dollar.

Harpo doesn't care.....his oil buddies are getting rich....that's all that matters. XX)
Now if we stuck a $50 a barrel carbon tax on then maybe things might improve. Done wonders for Norway.....course they don't let the oil barons run things.


----------



## Lawrence

MacDoc said:


> what a crock - Rae didn't cause the recession and Mikie didn't end it and Mikie still was in hole despite trying to cover it up by selling off the 407 for chump change.......and killing a few people by cutting water quality services......
> 
> That's just right wing dogma not good management.......
> 
> Bill Davis was the last small c Conservative in Ontario and HE managed it well.
> 
> Canada is suffering from Dutch disease thanks in part to misguided corporate welfare for the oil farts.
> 
> That is killing manufacturing in Ontario and Quebec due to the high dollar.
> 
> Harpo doesn't care.....his oil buddies are getting rich....that's all that matters. XX)
> Now if we stuck a $50 a barrel carbon tax on then maybe things might improve. Done wonders for Norway.....course they don't let the oil barons run things.


It's kind of sad there on the federal front, They should have kept Stéphane Dion,
His carbon tax concepts would have kept us out of the mess we are now in.

It's a shame that the dice fell where they may.


----------



## Lawrence

The sooner people realize what P.C. means the better.

They are Para Cites!!!


----------



## whatiwant

Lawrence said:


> The sooner people realize what P.C. means the better.
> 
> They are Para Cites!!!


Hiyo!


----------



## Lawrence

jawknee said:


> Hiyo!


They are very soul destructive, It's a shame that they can't be constructive,
Canada could be the happiest country in the world,
Yet they choose to constantly torment us instead.

We need to cut this....We need you provinces to accept less....We need you to ...

Bla bla bla....It's always the same crap,

They can't balance the country, They are just too lazy to have vision.

Just like our Mayor Ford, It's just too much work, 
It's easier to bust the unions and hire minimum wage earners with no benefits instead.

That is just so Mike Harris, Typical, It's a disease.


----------



## whatiwant

Lawrence said:


> They are very soul destructive, It's a shame that they can't be constructive,
> Canada could be the happiest country in the world,
> Yet they choose to constantly torment us instead.
> 
> We need to cut this....We need you provinces to accept less....We need you to ...
> 
> Bla bla bla....It's always the same crap,
> 
> They can't balance the country, They are just too lazy to have vision.
> 
> Just like our Mayor Ford, It's just too much work,
> It's easier to bust the unions and hire minimum wage earners with no benefits instead.
> 
> That is just so Mike Harris, Typical, It's a disease.


A
Men


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> what a crock - Rae didn't cause the recession and Mikie didn't end it and Mikie still was in hole despite trying to cover it up by selling off the 407 for chump change.......and killing a few people by cutting water quality services......


Yes, Rae dug us into the recession and Harris dug us out.


----------



## groovetube

Rae did NOT dig us into any recession anymore than Harper did. Harris merely squandered the good times on his buddies.

The lunacy of the right shrieks again.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Rae did NOT dig us into any recession anymore than Harper did. Harris merely squandered the good times on his buddies.
> 
> The lunacy of the right shrieks again.


That's right groove--because anyone who doesn't agree with the left must be a lunatic. Well argued. You should bind these into a volume: _Pensées_ by groovetube. One chapter could just be a series of lines that say "lol."


----------



## groovetube

I think anyone rational can see Rae didn't bring about the recession macfury.

I'm not sure that I even need to bring up the term lunacy here...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I think anyone rational can see Rae didn't bring about the recession macfury.
> 
> I'm not sure that I even need to bring up the term lunacy here...


Read it again, big boy--I said he dug us into the recession. Exacerbated it. I imagine if Rae had tried to create a recession he might have flubbed it and brought about an economic renaissance.


----------



## groovetube

Backpedalling is ok macfury


----------



## Max

It's not back-pedalling when MF does it... it's merely spinning a fresh excuse.

this is how it works:
spin your tale, hope it succeeds~
deny all later


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> It's not back-pedalling when MF does it... it's merely spinning a fresh excuse.
> 
> this is how it works:
> spin your tale, hope it succeeds~
> deny all later


Nope. During that recession Bob Rae was responsible for creating unusual suffering in Ontario--entirely attributable to him.


----------



## Max

Sure thing, MacFury!
spin and spin and spin and spin~
doesn't make it so.


----------



## groovetube

It was all Rae's fault.

Even the lefties aren't dumb enough to blame Harper for all of the recession's ills. 

There's pills for this apparently.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Even the lefties aren't dumb enough to blame Harper for all of the recession's ills.



Really? Take a look at most of the threads here.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Nope. During that recession Bob Rae was responsible for creating unusual suffering in Ontario--entirely attributable to him.


Here I thought it was Davis, Remember the rhyme..."Save us from Davis"


----------



## mrjimmy

Lawrence said:


> Here I thought it was Davis, Remember the rhyme..."Save us from Davis"


It's whoever you want it to be to support your argument.


----------



## groovetube

It wasnt Davis I disliked, it was Peterson that truly screwed things up. That is one egotistical jackarse.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> It wasnt Davis I disliked, it was Peterson that truly screwed things up. That is one egotistical jackarse.


Or how about "To Hell with Wells"


----------



## groovetube

Ontario hasn't had a really good premier in a very long time. And Hudak won't be any better than we've seen in some time either.

Yet another lyin clown.


----------



## Macfury

Hudak simply isn't interested in cutting the deficit. He made that clear in his party position paper.


----------



## i-rui




----------



## groovetube

Good for him. It's about time he showed some support, perhaps the backpedalling he had to do on gay pride taught him a much needed lesson.

And not to worry macfury, at some point, hudak will whisper enough sweet nothings in your ear for you to mark your x for him.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Good for him. It's about time he showed some support, perhaps the backpedalling he had to do on gay pride taught him a much needed lesson.
> 
> And not to worry macfury, at some point, hudak will whisper enough sweet nothings in your ear for you to mark your x for him.


I will vote for him just because he isn't McGuinty--their platforms on the deficit are identical.


----------



## Sonal

A bit earlier in the year, I had a hunch Hudak would be in so long as he stayed fairly quiet and continued to be "not McGuinty".

But I now I wonder a bit... it's been a bad week for Rob Ford here in Toronto, and in turn affects sentiments towards conservatives like Hudak. If he sounds too Ford-esque, a lot of voters would hesitate. It's still too early to say, though.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> A bit earlier in the year, I had a hunch Hudak would be in so long as he stayed fairly quiet and continued to be "not McGuinty".
> 
> But I now I wonder a bit... it's been a bad week for Rob Ford here in Toronto, and in turn affects sentiments towards conservatives like Hudak. If he sounds too Ford-esque, a lot of voters would hesitate. It's still too early to say, though.


It hasn't been a bad week for Ford at all. What do you suppose happened that Ford didn't like?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> It hasn't been a bad week for Ford at all. What do you suppose happened that Ford didn't like?


That many people who voted for Ford are not happy with his recent behaviour, and consequently he's losing some of his support. I don't think Ford likes that much at all.

It's still pretty early in all this, but if this continues, it's not going to bode well for him next election.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> That many people who voted for Ford are not happy with his recent behaviour, and consequently he's losing some of his support. I don't think Ford likes that much at all.
> 
> It's still pretty early in all this, but if this continues, it's not going to bode well for him next election.


Do you think he was shocked that Torontonians want to keep everything the are currently consuming and want more to boot?


----------



## Max

Do you include yourself in that broad fusillade you just made with that trusty blunderbuss of yours?


----------



## MacDoc

Perhaps if Toronto actually got back in value the taxes it sends off to Ottawa they could and then some.

Ottawa is truly a lovely city with good services......thank you Toronto.....my daughter enjoys your benefice.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> Perhaps if Toronto actually got back in value the taxes it sends off to Ottawa they could and then some.
> 
> Ottawa is truly a lovely city with good services......thank you Toronto.....my daughter enjoys your benefice.


Why shouldn't I get back what I pay to the city MacDoc? The truth is that most people get less back than they put in.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Do you include yourself in that broad fusillade you just made with that trusty blunderbuss of yours?


No, because my statement did not cover all Torontonians. I want about half of what is currently offered on my behalf--and probably a little less than that.


----------



## Max

Of course you want less. _Of course _you do!

In any case, I'm glad to hear that the Torontonians your'e railing against exclude those of your own particular ilk. I was beginning to worry about you.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Do you think he was shocked that Torontonians want to keep everything the are currently consuming and want more to boot?


No, I think he was shocked that cutting gravy is actually hard and requires a more thoughtful analysis than he has done.

The complaints I'm hearing from Ford voters is that they did not want or expect him to cut services or programmes... they expected him to figure out how to make these things run more cost-effectively. 

Break up or disempower the unions, lower pay, cut council and its associated staff, streamline processes and bureaucracy, find and eliminate places where discretionary expenses are unreasonably high, even find (gasp) cheap energy saving solutions... my dad keeps commenting on some city tennis courts that have lights on even when it's raining--a rain sensor would stop that and save money. (Who plays tennis in the rain?)

THAT is what the majority of Ford voters expected when they heard "Stop the gravy train." Not cutting services.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> THAT is what the majority of Ford voters expected when they heard "Stop the gravy train." Not cutting services.


I expected him to cut some actual level of service without canceling the service itself.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> No, I think he was shocked that cutting gravy is actually hard and requires a more thoughtful analysis than he has done.
> 
> The complaints I'm hearing from Ford voters is that they did not want or expect him to cut services or programmes... they expected him to figure out how to make these things run more cost-effectively.
> 
> Break up or disempower the unions, lower pay, cut council and its associated staff, streamline processes and bureaucracy, find and eliminate places where discretionary expenses are unreasonably high, even find (gasp) cheap energy saving solutions... my dad keeps commenting on some city tennis courts that have lights on even when it's raining--a rain sensor would stop that and save money. (Who plays tennis in the rain?)
> 
> THAT is what the majority of Ford voters expected when they heard "Stop the gravy train." Not cutting services.


 you might have blown a fuse there somewhere.


----------



## Macfury

Has your fuse blown again, groovetube?


----------



## Lawrence

I'm just glad this thread has lasted this long,
The Hudak thread will probably get better in the fall.


----------



## groovetube

I predict it goes like this:

Hudak's a liar. (duh)

No he isn't.

Yes he is.

No he isn't 

Yes he is

No he isn't 

Yes he is...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I predict it goes like this:
> 
> Hudak's a liar. (duh)


Is that you saying "duh"?


----------



## Dr T

*Duh, did you just like say "Duh"?*



Macfury said:


> Is that you saying "duh"?


Does this posting on this thread represent the accumulated wisdom of the members?

Excuse me while I put out my candle and crawl back into my hovel.


----------



## groovetube

I think he's hit the "why" stage. The upside often they grow out of it.


----------



## Macfury

Dr T said:


> Does this posting on this thread represent the accumulated wisdom of the members?
> 
> Excuse me while I put out my candle and crawl back into my hovel.


See ya!


----------



## Macfury

It's surprising to see how well Ford has orchestrated this sideshow. It's diverted the efforts of a lot of the people who consider themselves "activists." 

As a friend pointed out to me, some of the crazy presentations point out just how mixed-up some of the citizens of this great city are. If you promote the idea that libraries, for example, are a great thing because they save people from exposure to the cold or heat then you have a very poor concept about the best allocation of resources. As much as people want all of their libraries to remain open all of the time, I haven't seen a single reasonable analysis of why they should all remain open: aggregate figures don't tell the story of specific branches. Do most of the users borrow bestsellers so they can avoid paying for them? Are the libraries used primarily by adults or children? Are the standards of having food and drink at a library being relaxed simply to encourage more people to use them? Probably time to close down a marginal branch or two and fold its collection into the nearest branch that has some architectural or historical merit.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> It's surprising to see how well Ford has orchestrated this sideshow. It's diverted the efforts of a lot of the people who consider themselves "activists."
> 
> As a friend pointed out to me, some of the crazy presentations point out just how mixed-up some of the citizens of this great city are. If you promote the idea that libraries, for example, are a great thing because they save people from exposure to the cold or heat then you have a very poor concept about the best allocation of resources. As much as people want all of their libraries to remain open all of the time, I haven't seen a single reasonable analysis of why they should all remain open: aggregate figures don't tell the story of specific branches. Do most of the users borrow bestsellers so they can avoid paying for them? Are the libraries used primarily by adults or children? Are the standards of having food and drink at a library being relaxed simply to encourage more people to use them? Probably time to close down a marginal branch or two and fold its collection into the nearest branch that has some architectural or historical merit.


Likewise, there's been no reasonable analysis about what, if anything, should be cut and why, nor what impact it would have on that particular community if it were cut.

In any case, the library collects these stats and figures for their own usage and planning--who uses the library, when, how many and what types of research requests are handled by librarians, what programs are offered by each branch, how many people use these programs, etc. 

Shouldn't be too hard for the city to go through the numbers and build a case if the data is there. Most constituents seem to strongly object to their local branch being cut... if nothing else, it would be politically wise to conduct some analysis before saying off the cuff "oh, I'm sure no one would miss THAT branch."

If Ford is determined to cut services, he needs to spend more time actually examining these issues.


----------



## Macfury

All cuts will have an impact on someone who is used to getting that service for nothing.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> All cuts will have an impact on someone who is used to getting that service for nothing.


Yes. So what's the problem with trying to put some thought into what that impact would be.

At my building, one of my larger annual non-mandatory expense is the superintendent. Not only do I have to pay a super, but I (usually) have to provide an apartment from which I could otherwise generate revenue. Not every building requires an on-site super. Many of my tenants assume that the super does very little and collects a free apartment and wonders why that's necessary.

If I cut the superintendent, or outsource some of the super's functions, it will have an impact on that building... but I still need to see if that impact makes sense for the building. Will my repair costs go up? Will my cleaning costs go up to keep the building at an acceptable level? Will my leasing costs go up? Will I need to provide more security? Will my building be a less desirable place to rent for not having an on-site super? Will I have to charge lower rent or endure higher vacancies if there is no super? Will my other resources (my time, the office, etc.) be available to compensate for the lack of a superintendent? Will using some of those resources to compensate for no superintendent have an impact on other areas of the business? And overall, does the benefit of having a superintendent outweigh the costs?

That kind of impact has not even been looked at by Ford & Co.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> That kind of impact has not even been looked at by Ford & Co.


Nothing has been cut.


----------



## groovetube

I pay pretty handsomely for these services, I don't need any libertarian telling me I have to pay more for less thankyou.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Nothing has been cut.


There's also been no indication that there will be any actual analysis prior to making the decision to make cuts in September.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> There's also been no indication that there will be any actual analysis prior to making the decision to make cuts in September.


In fact, no indication of what will actually be proposed for cutting or whether council will vote to cut it.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> In fact, no indication of what will actually be proposed for cutting or whether council will vote to cut it.


Sure there's been an indication of what will be proposed--the KPMG report is an early indication of what will be proposed.

And Doug Ford is on record saying that he would close a library branch in a heartbeat. So that's one fairly influential vote on council for closing branches without giving it any real prior thought.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Sure there's been an indication of what will be proposed--the KPMG report is an early indication of what will be proposed.
> 
> And Doug Ford is on record saying that he would close a library branch in a heartbeat. So that's one fairly influential vote on council for closing branches without giving it any real prior thought.


One vote. 

For my money, the KPMG report was a pretty poor job, by the way. The kind of stuff anyone could come up with after a week of chatting over coffees.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> For my money, the KPMG report was a pretty poor job, by the way. The kind of stuff anyone could come up with after a week of chatting over coffees.


Mammoliti will vote with Doug Ford. Two votes. 

Some of the other traditional Ford supporters are being swayed by public outcry, so that's up in the air....

I agree with you that it was a poor report, and it's pretty shameful that Ford is using this as a basis for deciding what needs cutting. A far better analysis could have and should have been done...


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I agree with you that it was a poor report, and it's pretty shameful that Ford is using this as a basis for deciding what needs cutting. A far better analysis could have and should have been done...


I agree as well. For example, I think it would have been far better to say, for example that all budgets will be cut by 0.5 per cent across the board and allow the departments involved to simply make the cuts as they see fit.

I would say that the low quality of KPMG report was probably a major disappointment to the cost-cutting crew in that they can't simply point to it and say that someone else made a good case for it.

Some idiot suggested that Riverdale Farms sell the eggs that are laid to raise money--those eggs have been for sale for years already! I really love Riverdale Farm, but I see no reason that it shouldn't be treated as a small zoo. Have some free hours and charge a toonie to see it at other times. 

There wasn't a lot of creativity in that report.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I agree as well. For example, I think it would have been far better to say, for example that all budgets will be cut by 0.5 per cent across the board and allow the departments involved to simply make the cuts as they see fit.
> 
> I would say that the low quality of KPMG report was probably a major disappointment to the cost-cutting crew in that they can't simply point to it and say that someone else made a good case for it.
> 
> Some idiot suggested that Riverdale Farms sell the eggs that are laid to raise money--those eggs have been for sale for years already! I really love Riverdale Farm, but I see no reason that it shouldn't be treated as a small zoo. Have some free hours and charge a toonie to see it at other times.
> 
> There wasn't a lot of creativity in that report.


Cuts across the board make a lot more sense, especially if you allow the departments themselves use their own domain expertise to figure out how they can do that effectively, or as you suggest, more creatively. A twoonie to see Riverdale Farm doesn't sound unreasonable, especially coupled with some free days and hours.

The other thing I would like to see is a change to how the City does its accounting. Right now, everything goes into "General Revenue" so if they do make a change like charging user fees, they have no accurate way of measuring if it's actually working. Change that, and you'll be able to better see what is and isn't justifying its costs.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The other thing I would like to see is a change to how the City does its accounting. Right now, everything goes into "General Revenue" so if they do make a change like charging user fees, they have no accurate way of measuring if it's actually working. Change that, and you'll be able to better see what is and isn't justifying its costs.


I agree with that as well. 

I think there's a big difference overall in running a city in such a way as to benefit people on lower incomes than to run it in such a way that those people become the raison d'etre for every program, funding, decision, etc. Both sides need to de-entrench themselves a bit to arrive at a decent compromise where dollars are spent effectively to achieve actual goals--not philosophical or ethical purity.


----------



## Rps

You know this is a classic ploy by politicians to influence their platform. Give the world all the doom, then what ever comes in, as long as it is less than projected ( and it usually is ) we all flood behind them like lemmings saying how lucky we are. Why should Mayor Ford be any different in his budget concerns that any other branch of the government ... it could be worse ... just check out the debates south of the border on finances. I find it amazing how much like Obama, Ford has become .... so I ask the question for all who truly hate him as Mayor ( and I don't live in his jurisdiction so I'm not trying to pick political sides here ) but what has he done to invoke so much ire ..... I mean what has he actually done, not what the media or even his office states he is going to do, what has he really done to deserve such an aggressive response.......


----------



## groovetube

This city isn't run specifically to cater to people on lower incomes.

The ridiculous assumptions continue.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> ...what has he done to invoke so much ire ..... I mean what has he actually done, not what the media or even his office states he is going to do, what has he really done to deserve such an aggressive response.......


This is beyond me. I have watched people here doing the equivalent of foaming at the mouth and falling backward and repeating; "Liarrrrrrrrrr" like they were pod people from the 1978 _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_.

At the very least, Ford has done the city a great service by at least putting everything on the table.


----------



## groovetube

it could be, because he's proposing to do exactly, what he said he wouldn't do. Torontonians elected him based on these promises. 

That, makes you a liar!

If he thought he would have to cut services, then he shouldn't have promised not to! He was a councillor for 10 years, and he can't excuse himself for not knowing anything.


----------



## Lawrence

Rps said:


> You know this is a classic ploy by politicians to influence their platform. Give the world all the doom, then what ever comes in, as long as it is less than projected ( and it usually is ) we all flood behind them like lemmings saying how lucky we are. Why should Mayor Ford be any different in his budget concerns that any other branch of the government ... it could be worse ... just check out the debates south of the border on finances. I find it amazing how much like Obama, Ford has become .... so I ask the question for all who truly hate him as Mayor ( and I don't live in his jurisdiction so I'm not trying to pick political sides here ) but what has he done to invoke so much ire ..... I mean what has he actually done, not what the media or even his office states he is going to do, what has he really done to deserve such an aggressive response.......


Where have you been?

Nobody should have to recount all the dumb things he's done or proposed to do.


----------



## Rps

As I mentioned, I do not live in Toronto, so it doesn't matter where I've been but where I am ....... and as for proposed, he hasn't done them yet ( I presume ) or they wouldn't be proposed. I could propose I'm going to the moon, but I haven't ..... so just what has he actually done as a Mayor to invoke such hate .... I'm curious... I ask the question because I don't really know what he actually has done.


----------



## Lawrence

Rps said:


> As I mentioned, I do not live in Toronto, so it doesn't matter where I've been but where I am ....... and as for proposed, he hasn't done them yet ( I presume ) or they wouldn't be proposed. I could propose I'm going to the moon, but I haven't ..... so just what has he actually done as a Mayor to invoke such hate .... I'm curious... I ask the question because I don't really know what he actually has done.


It might be a good exercise for you then, You can peruse this thread or you can use google,
I'm not going to reiterate everything this man has done or is planning to do.

Have fun


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> As I mentioned, I do not live in Toronto, so it doesn't matter where I've been but where I am ....... and as for proposed, he hasn't done them yet ( I presume ) or they wouldn't be proposed. I could propose I'm going to the moon, but I haven't ..... so just what has he actually done as a Mayor to invoke such hate .... I'm curious... I ask the question because I don't really know what he actually has done.


I don't think to many people are interested in sitting around watching him do what he proposed.

Perhaps you're into voter apathy, we're not.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> As I mentioned, I do not live in Toronto, so it doesn't matter where I've been but where I am ....... and as for proposed, he hasn't done them yet ( I presume ) or they wouldn't be proposed. I could propose I'm going to the moon, but I haven't ..... so just what has he actually done as a Mayor to invoke such hate .... I'm curious... I ask the question because I don't really know what he actually has done.


So far: frozen property tax for the first year, cancelled $60 vehicle registration tax, ordered KPMG report on potential cost-cutting targets, privatized some of Toronto's garbage services.


----------



## Rps

Well, I think I've worked for or covered enough elections to understand politics and platform. It seems to me that Ford came across as the evil of the two lessors. Now that he is in all the ills of the past seem to be his fault. Contrary to Lawrence's view, I have read this thread and mostly it seem to contain bickering between the pro and con camps for Ford. My only concern with the man is he and his brother in council makes for a potential conflict of interest which should have been addressed prior to the election. I never worry about what someone proposes as it seldom takes root as stated ... there is a council after all. My only concern with him is that he seems to think he is immune or maybe above might be a better term, political consequences of his thoughts.

There are two types of ignorance in this world, ignorance of just not knowing and willful ignorance .... in Ford's case I'm not really sure which one it is. By the way, I'm not an apathetic voter .... groovetube, but that's a fair comment in this day and age. It's a good sign that someone calls the question.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> Well, I think I've worked for or covered enough elections to understand politics and platform. It seems to me that Ford came across as the evil of the two lessors


It was Smitherman's election to lose and he did so with flying colours. For an electorate that had tired of weak-kneed David Miller, only the downtown area wanted to see Miller Lite in office.


----------



## groovetube

not to mention, wasting millions and millions cancelling a transit plan that was likely one of the best solutions we can use for now to deliver real improvements at a reasonable cost, in favour of diverting untold billions and billions into what likely will be a lengthy boondoggle lining plenty of buddies with ridiculous wads of cash in cost overuns, etc. Declaring a war on cyclists since, he believes any cyclist under the wheels of an SUV probably deserved since it's always their fault, showing a clear desire to wipe out services without any thought whatsoever as to the impact it might have.

So you have conveniently left out out some important things, which may explain your clear misunderstanding of why people are very concerned over where things are, and may go.

No I'll side with Sonal that what's needed is some sanity, and some brains in city hall to deal with out budget problems, and the needs of the city without this BS of dividing regions and pitting "hardworking Torontonains against lazy hippes wanting handouts"

Only fools would buy this nonsense.


----------



## Sonal

Rps, Ford came into office with a fiscal conservative policy, but so far, many of the moves he's made were more ideologically conservative.

For example, the Jarvis street bike lanes. The money was spent under Miller to put them in. The fiscally conservative thing to do would be to leave them alone, but Ford made a decision to spend twice as much as they cost to put in, to take them out. He did so based on the ideological idea that "the war on the car is over." He claims that he took them out because they slowed down traffic... I had my student tell me how great it was that he did this because of how much traffic gets slowed down because of the bike lanes, and yet she never drives on Jarvis street and I do several times a week... traffic has not noticably slowed that I can see, and independent studies have shown that the slowdown is about 4 minutes. Was that 4 minutes worth the $200,000? I don't think so.

Transit City is another contentious issue. As a plan, Transit City was ready to go, had its funding in place, and it was a fairly comprehensive transit structure that would serve a much larger area of the city. Ford cancelled it, and replaced it with a more expensive, still not yet fully funded and considerably less comprehensive extension of the Sheppard subway line... why? Because "the war on the car is over." Again, ideology over fiscal conservatism... keep in mind that I drive through the city every day, so it's not like I don't know what traffic is like.

Public Health is another issue. Even as a councillor, Ford has consistently voted against providing public health services to deal with AIDS related issues, even when he was the lone dissenter, and even when such services are funded by other entities (e.g., the Province) and cost the city nothing. Why? Again, ideology over fiscal conservatism.

Finally, there's a big cultural clash. Toronto is one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. We attract more immigrants of all elasticities than just about any other city in Canada, we have the largest gay community in Canada, etc. Ford has said some incredibly ignorant and offensive things over the years about various ethnic groups and sexual orientations. How can we trust him to represent and understand all of Toronto's diversity as Mayor, when he himself has repeatedly shown himself to be ignorant to the point of being utterly offensive to various groups?

I'm fairly centrist and certainly more pragmatic in my political thinking than not. For the record, I think it was good that he was able to privatize some of Toronto's garbage pick-up. But much of my ire is that I simply do not trust this man to do right by Toronto, and many of his moves so far have not inspired much further confidence.

Now if he would go on to cut council and leave most other things alone, I might change my mind about him....


----------



## i-rui

he also gave the police an 11% raise over 4 years. that's some nice gravy. it's funny where the anti-union rhetoric starts & stops with fiscal conservatives.


----------



## Ottawaman

> Policing costs account for a significant portion of the city's operating budget. The proposed 2012 police operating budget currently stands at $969.7 million. For 2011, it's $914.9 million.
> 
> There are currently 5,598 Toronto police officers and 2,068 full-time civilian staff. McCormack said the force stands to lose some 250 officers and another 50 civilians by the end of 2012 through attrition.


Police association head worried about cuts - Toronto - CBC News

That seems like a lot of police when crime rates are at a 30 year low.


----------



## Rps

Thanks Sonal for the update. Being a resident in 4 cities ( lately ) I can understand the issue with the bikes. It's not the riders who are responsible that slow the traffic down but the poor ones who take advantage of their town becoming bike-friendly. I have seen this in other cities .. unless the whole city is in on the bike thing it doesn't seem to work well. I do agree that sometimes reversing the spent funds looks like a waste, but sometimes its the future costs that they are trying to avoid.

For the AIDS issue. I sort of see his point. If Toronto is cash strapped shouldn't the Feds and Province ( who under the BNA has medical jurisdiction ) be the likely source of funds. If you are looking to cut costs the first thing I would look at is who has governance over the issue ( and yes I understand this comment will cause some debate...that said the excess money spent on the bike path could have funded the AIDS issue.

As for Transit City ..... I have a problem with anything having to do with the reporting of funds with public transit. The money just doesn't add up and I have often asked myself where the money goes ( take the number of people who take the TTC each day. I know it's a capital intensive business but was there no future planning in that organisation. I can see your point on ideology over touting being a fiscal conservative ..... I would submit that for many they are one and the same. To me he looks like a one termer, unless he has a change of view. 

From my view, is the 416 enough to defeat the 905? Not sure.


----------



## Sonal

RP, you misread. Ford recently turned down public health nurses that ARE funded by the province. No cost to the city. 

He's the only one of 35 mayors who were offered this by the province to do so. Makes no fiscal sense whatsoever.

He reversed the Jarvis street bike lanes very early on in his mayoralty. There was no thought, no analysis, no explanation except, quite to say "The war on the car is over." He's not justifying it as "oh, well it will cost us more down the road", he's explaining it as "roads are for cars, period." Again, ideological, not fiscal reasoning. Frankly, his power base is out in the 'burbs, and I guarantee most of those people DON'T ever drive on Jarvis Street at all. It's not like there weren't cyclist there before there were bike lanes.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> RP, you misread. Ford recently turned down public health nurses that ARE funded by the province. No cost to the city.
> 
> He's the only one of 35 mayors who were offered this by the province to do so. Makes no fiscal sense whatsoever.


On the grounds that the city could be made to pick up the legacy costs of employing extra nurses when funding ends--which does make some sense.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> On the grounds that the city could be made to pick up the legacy costs of employing extra nurses when funding ends--which does make some sense.


Not if you make their employment contract dependent on provincial funding.


----------



## groovetube

I believe you've already pointed this out Sonal. Twice, I believe...


----------



## Rps

I see your point Sonal, it is a little dumb on his part not to go along with this .


----------



## Ottawaman

So why did the TPS deserve an above inflation raise for the next 4 years? They're already the highest paid force in Canada. Why did the Mayor support this "gravy"?


----------



## groovetube

Well, there's good gravy, and bad gravy.


----------



## mrjimmy

You're going to need those cops when the poor have nowhere left to go.


----------



## groovetube

that's ok, if you pull funding for the disease prevention treatment etc., and bicycle safety, amongst other helpful things, a general culling of the poor will solve that.

I mean we all know a finance exec works way harder and deserves far more services than a father of a family struggling with a low paying job. To hell with that poor b*...


----------



## Lawrence

Harper saying to Ford, Hoping for a hat trick this fall,
Yea right, Last time we had bad water was during the Mike Harris reign in Walkerton,
Then later in Chalk river by Harper's negligence, Does radioactive water count as being bad water?


In any case, I hope these two fishing buddies catch the one that got away.


----------



## dona83

Good gravy:









Bad gravy:


----------



## BigDL

Lawrence said:


> Harper saying to Ford, Hoping for a hat trick this fall,
> Yea right, Last time we had bad water was during the Mike Harris reign in Walkerton,
> Then later in Chalk river by Harper's negligence, Does radioactive water count as being bad water?...


Your call! Is glowing in the dark necessarily a bad thing?


----------



## Macfury

The Metro Reference Library has got to be one of the ugliest structures in existence.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The Metro Reference Library has got to be one of the ugliest structures in existence.


I agree in regards to the exterior but I always found the interior to work. It does however feel incredibly dated.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> The Metro Reference Library has got to be one of the ugliest structures in existence.


and it's not edible to boot


----------



## Max

The interior is lovely. The exterior, not so much.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Why all the harsh reaction to Ford?

Small minded

Short-sighted

Declaratively ignorant

Loud

Basically the type of person I do my best to avoid. Ottawa went through 4 wasted years under a similar philistine named Larry O'brien. Unfortunately now it's Toronto's turn magnified by a larger city influenced by additional opinions of all the 905ers who like to think of themselves as Torontonians, I was at a wedding in Montreal recently and was introduced to a couple who said they were from Toronto...I asked them where abouts? She replied "Oakville".



The New Philistinism isn’t for anything like that. It’s reactionary, it’s small-minded, it's short-sighted and it’s declaratively ignorant. It's also very loud.


----------



## Max

That's a bit different, Jimbo... if I lived in Streetsville or Malton but was at a wedding in Winnipeg, I just as easily might say I'm from "Toronto," just so folks knew for sure what neck of the woods I'm from. But if I were back on home turf, I'd likely be saying anything _but _Toronto. Territorialism.

Oakville


----------



## Lawrence

jimbotelecom said:


> Why all the harsh reaction to Ford?


Doh!!!...The man is a moron, Jabba the Hut would make a better mayor.


----------



## mrjimmy

Lawrence said:


> Doh!!!...The man is a moron, Jabba the Hut would make a better mayor.


And a slightly skinnier one.


----------



## whatiwant

mrjimmy said:


> and a slightly skinnier one.


hiyoooooooooooo!


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> And a slightly skinnier one.


As one who is trying to lose weight, comment about his politics and policies, but not his weight. Merci, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> That's a bit different, Jimbo... if I lived in Streetsville or Malton but was at a wedding in Winnipeg, I just as easily might say I'm from "Toronto," just so folks knew for sure what neck of the woods I'm from. But if I were back on home turf, I'd likely be saying anything _but _Toronto. Territorialism.
> 
> Oakville


Exactly.


----------



## adagio

Anyone who is worldly and travelled at all would realize that folks usually name the closest large city centre when asked where they live. My family who lives in King City will always state Toronto as a general landmark when out of province or country. That in no way implies they wish to be part of Toronto or get involved with it's politics.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> As one who is trying to lose weight, comment about his politics and policies, but not his weight. Merci, mon ami.


Dr.G.,

I generally find the mocking of human frailty to be unacceptable but in the case of Rob Ford, I make an exception.

His are the politics of ignorance and divisiveness and for this he invites scorn.

Taking the high road is ineffective as this was not the road taken to get him elected.

In your case and others, I applaud you and wish you well.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> I generally find the mocking of human frailty to be unacceptable but in the case of Rob Ford, I make an exception.


Sensitive when it is easy to be sensitive. but all bets are off when it becomes a challenge, huh?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Sensitive when it is easy to be sensitive. but all bets are off when it becomes a challenge, huh?


You judge as you see fit MF.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> You judge as you see fit MF.


I'm only asking--you're the one who admits to acting willingly as the judge of human frailty. 

However, I see little value in maintaining a civilized demeanour only when one finds it easy to do so. The true test of character is when it becomes difficult.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I'm only asking--you're the one who admits to acting willingly as the judge of human frailty.
> 
> However, I see little value in maintaining a civilized demeanour only when one finds it easy to do so. The true test of character is when it becomes difficult.


Ah I see. You are the judge of human character.

What can I say? I explained myself clearly. Your opinion means nothing to me.


----------



## adagio

I'm glad DrG spoke up. Discuss politics or policies all you want. Physical attributes whether it's being overweight or a crooked mouth or whatever have no bearing on the person's attributes. I was disgusted when folks made fun of Chretien and I'm equally upset when others are made fun of. I learned in my almost 60 years that appearances mean squat about a person. Paul Bernardo was a good looking man.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Dr.G.,
> 
> I generally find the mocking of human frailty to be unacceptable but in the case of Rob Ford, I make an exception.
> 
> His are the politics of ignorance and divisiveness and for this he invites scorn.
> 
> Taking the high road is ineffective as this was not the road taken to get him elected.
> 
> In your case and others, I applaud you and wish you well.


I have to agree with Jimmy here. It's Ford who very clearly drew the battle lines. Unfortunately the "left wing KOOKS" can play ball too.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I have to agree with Jimmy here. It's Ford who very clearly drew the battle lines. Unfortunately the "left wing KOOKS" can play ball too.


So then call him a right wing kook.

What's an antonym for "pinko"? Bike-riding pinkos. Car-driving _____.?


----------



## mrjimmy

adagio said:


> I'm glad DrG spoke up. Discuss politics or policies all you want. Physical attributes whether it's being overweight or a crooked mouth or whatever have no bearing on the person's attributes. I was disgusted when folks made fun of Chretien and I'm equally upset when others are made fun of. I learned in my almost 60 years that appearances mean squat about a person. Paul Bernardo was a good looking man.


How about mocking one's nationality? Say for instance, when Robby Boy called George Mammoliti 'Gino Boy'. 

Taking the high road with this type of individual is pointless. If you do, he will only mock you for it. The more negative press for the brothers, the better.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Dr.G.,
> 
> I generally find the mocking of human frailty to be unacceptable but in the case of Rob Ford, I make an exception.
> 
> His are the politics of ignorance and divisiveness and for this he invites scorn.
> 
> Taking the high road is ineffective as this was not the road taken to get him elected.
> 
> In your case and others, I applaud you and wish you well.


Mrj, mock his "politics of ignorance and divisiveness" .............. that's fine with me. Just leave weight out of the mocking. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> So then call him a right wing kook.
> 
> What's an antonym for "pinko"? Bike-riding pinkos. Car-driving _____.?


normally, I'd agree with you. Just not in Ford's case. Like I said, he called it first.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> Mrj, mock his "politics of ignorance and divisiveness" .............. that's fine with me. Just leave weight out of the mocking. Paix, mon ami.


Dr.G., with the utmost respect to you, I can't make any promises. Until this scourge has been eradicated from the city I love, the attacks will be relentless.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Dr.G., with the utmost respect to you, I can't make any promises. Until this scourge has been eradicated from the city I love, the attacks will be relentless.


"With all respect" to Dr. G becomes a meaningless term in that context. You do not respect Dr. G. if you continue to attack people because of their weight.


----------



## groovetube

he isn't attacking "people". He's attacking Ford.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> How about mocking one's nationality? Say for instance, when Robby Boy called George Mammoliti 'Gino Boy'.


Giorgio Mammoliti got offended by that when he thought it might damage Ford's reputation and get him more votes in his mayoral campaign, and then joked it off as "oh, he was kidding" when he saw the way the wind was blowing and successfully inserted himself as Ford's right-hand man.

Let's not get offended on Mammoliti's behalf when Mammoliti himself only declares offense or brushes it off based on political expediency.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Dr.G., with the utmost respect to you, I can't make any promises. Until this scourge has been eradicated from the city I love, the attacks will be relentless.


Well, to each their own form of attack. I personally would rather attack someone like Ford on his policies and positions on certain issues rather than on what he looks like or what he weighs. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> he isn't attacking "people". He's attacking Ford.


Zackly.

MF's broad attempt to discredit as he defends RF should be admired though. He is his boy after all.


----------



## Macfury

Dehumanizing those one disagrees with has been tried before. It's a dirty business and leads to no good.


----------



## groovetube

sure, just ask Rob Ford all about it. He is the master at that.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Dehumanizing those one disagrees with has been tried before. It's a dirty business and leads to no good.


As for Ford, He was elected blindly and allowed to rule as he likes,
Hopefully he gets impeached for lying to the public to get elected.

If he is left unchecked, Then he could destroy all the services we have worked so hard to get,
The very fabric of our social network is being threatened by a big cry baby complaining about gravy.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> If he is left unchecked, Then he could destroy all the services we have worked so hard to get.


He will hopefully cut some of the services I work so hard to support. Many voters elected him to do just this. It's supposed to be a safety net--not a hammock.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> He will hopefully cut some of the services I work so hard to support. Many voters elected him to do just this. It's supposed to be a safety net--not a hammock.


How sad it is that the certain few take advantage of the net when it is in place,
While the disadvantaged suffer when the net is gone.

It's like politicians that rented low income housing units that were under rent controls in the 70's,
While those that legitimately needed housing were left to get on a waiting list for housing.

There will always be the few that take advantage of the many,
Punishing everyone is not the answer.


----------



## Macfury

If you have an extremely broad definition of "neediness" then everything appears as suffering. I have no problem seeing someone pay 50 cents to see Riverdale Farm or being asked to pay the full cost of their belly dancing program.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> sure, just ask Rob Ford all about it. He is the master at that.


Ain't it the truth GT, ain't it the truth.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> He will hopefully cut some of the services I work so hard to support. Many voters elected him to do just this. It's supposed to be a safety net--not a hammock.


Absolutely, wrong.

He was elected to cut waste and maintain services.

Thats what he promised, and that's what voters will expect. He'll take a severe beating if he doesn't deliver.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> Absolutely, wrong.
> 
> He was elected to cut waste and maintain services.
> 
> Thats what he promised, and that's what voters will expect. He'll take a severe beating if he doesn't deliver.


I agree, Poor bashing and making the poor pay for services is not the answer,
Typical of P.C. type policies, Just look at what Mike Harris did to the disabled and the infirm.

Just despicable 

If he wants to cut services to the rich, Then fine,
Maybe it'd be better if they never get their roads repaved,
Although, It might be too late for Forest Hill.


----------



## groovetube

It's beyond what macfury thinks ideologically, it's what he promised. Period.

That's what torontonians voted for.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> It's beyond what macfury thinks ideologically, it's what he promised. Period.


it's true. his campaign promise was no cuts to service, and no layoffs in the public sector (the workforce would be reduced through attrition) while also reducing taxes.

in other words : pure BS.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Giorgio Mammoliti got offended by that when he thought it might damage Ford's reputation and get him more votes in his mayoral campaign, and then joked it off as "oh, he was kidding" when he saw the way the wind was blowing and successfully inserted himself as Ford's right-hand man.
> 
> Let's not get offended on Mammoliti's behalf when Mammoliti himself only declares offense or brushes it off based on political expediency.


I get offended by Ford's words only. As some here are offended by mine. As I am of theirs and so on.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> pure BS.


Check.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Dehumanizing those one disagrees with has been tried before. It's a dirty business and leads to no good.


Sounds familiar. Isn't that what you attempt to do to GT when you disagree with him? (which, I believe is always).


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Sounds familiar. Isn't that what you attempt to do to GT when you disagree with him? (which, I believe is always).


Nope. I have implied that GT doesn't _get_ some things when he misunderstands the issue or question being discussed, but he's human as everyone else.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> it's true. his campaign promise was no cuts to service, and no layoffs in the public sector (the workforce would be reduced through attrition) while also reducing taxes.
> 
> in other words : pure BS.


I elected him in the belief that he would cut the level of services, without eliminating those services. Many people are counting on him to do just that.


----------



## groovetube

No, he promised not to cut services.

Period.

In order fund his pie in the sky plans and balance the budget with less revenue, well good luck in the next election.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Nope. I have implied that GT doesn't _get_ some things when he misunderstands the issue or question being discussed, but he's human as everyone else.


Oh we've seen some rather hilarious examples of 'misunderstanding the issue' from you despite your bleatings of 'it's way out of my league'.

Some basic 101 level stuff too. Perhaps you should take your own advice of not embarrassing yourself. Likely sage advice...


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> I elected him in the belief that he would cut the level of services, without eliminating those services. Many people are counting on him to do just that.


Oh...I see now, You voted for him because you wanted him to not cut the service completely,
But to cut the amount of service that was offered,
In other words, You wanted the budget service over the deluxe service.

If you like, There are people that perform services like this for you,
They'll even do it for you in your home, They are are called idiots!!!.

What the hell are you thinking?

Punish me...I'm not worthy of good services.


Good god man get a grip, We pay taxes for this crap, Bring on our crap, I want my crap!!!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I elected him in the belief that he would cut the level of services, without eliminating those services. Many people are counting on him to do just that.


his exact words were :

"we can reach this target by cutting waste, we do not need to cut services".

Your belief may have been different or more realistic, but those were the words he campaigned on. 

"cut the level of services, without eliminating those services" is still cutting services.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury is content to pay the same taxes and get less while they shovel the money somewhere else.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> Macfury is content to pay the same taxes and get less while they shovel the money somewhere else.


"Visions of pork roast BBQ's dancing in their heads"

Man...If only I liked Pork, I could've been the perfect candidate to run the GTA


----------



## Max

I think it's pretty clear... Ford campaigned on a bold promise to vigorously cut waste - not cut services.


----------



## Ottawaman

I'm waiting to see if we get the Harper, Hudak, Ford trifecta. Truly a scary thought.


----------



## Max

We may yet; there's a first time for everything.


----------



## whatiwant

I want smoked pulled pork now thanks. Arg.


----------



## groovetube

The trouble with that, as I mentioned, if ford and hudak start looking like losers which, we all know is likely, Harper may face a less than enthusiastic Ontario for conservatism.

Ontario sorta funny that way.


----------



## Max

Dalton's not exactly pulling in new fans and the NDP are in disarray. I dunno. I think there's great chances for conservatives in Ontario. Not that I'm happy about it, mind.

Ford is already showing his true colours, so I see him as a lesser threat, especially as the days roll on. Hudak is largely an unknown to me. But Dalton? Man, the guy has been spinning his wheels for years now.


----------



## groovetube

no Dalton's done. He was never a good premier to begin with. He simply took it by default.

Same for Hudak. He's just, "the other guy". But Ford will be in complete flail mode, and people will have scratched their heads wondering what they did picking Hudak in a few years, and here come's the federal election in 2015.


----------



## Sonal

Unless something changes drastically, we'll see Hudak as Premier. All the guy has to do is sit quietly and not be Dalton McGuinty to win.... his error so far is that he actually tried to reveal a platform, expecting people to vote on issues, but fortunately most seem to have forgotten all about that.

Dalton's best hope--and it's still a slim one right now--is campaigning on "I'm nothing like Rob Ford" and "see? see? Rob Ford is what you get when you let conservatives into power!" but I think that's premature. Ford voters, while less happy with him overall, aren't totally against him yet, and Ontario is much more than Toronto... I don't know how "I'm not like Rob Ford" plays in the actual 905 and beyond.

We are going to see a Harper-Hudak-Ford trifecta unless there is some really big media gaffe for Hudak between now and then.


----------



## groovetube

certainly. And when he gets in, he'll scream the province is more broke than he thought, so he'll have to cut all our services such as healthcare, so if your mom needs heart surgery well, she'll just have to wait.

Because you know, that 100 dollar tax cut is more important than anything you could possibly imagine. It's the new conservative way.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Because you know, that 100 dollar tax cut is more important than anything you could possibly imagine. It's the new conservative way.


Well yes. With that $100, I will spend and invest and spend and invest and create amazing economic stimulus for a long time to come.

Or... I will buy a pair of shoes and maybe a new hat.


----------



## groovetube

and I trust you will ensure that pair of shoes and hat was wholly manufactured here in Canada. Otherwise, we'd just be stimulating China.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> and I trust you will ensure that pair of shoes and hat was wholly manufactured here in Canada. Otherwise, we'd just be stimulating China.


With $100? How am I supposed to afford Canadian-made shoes and hats with $100?


----------



## groovetube

was going to comment on that, but boy how unCanadian would I be?


----------



## whatiwant

$100 gets you a helluva lot of Canadian made gravy. Maybe 1/2 a nice shirt or 3/8 of a pair of pants.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Ford voters, while less happy with him overall, aren't totally against him yet, and Ontario is much more than Toronto... I don't know how "I'm not like Rob Ford" plays in the actual 905 and beyond.


Not a scientific poll by any means, but I've seen Ford play really well to the 905ers who are happy to see Toronto being forced to live within its means.


----------



## groovetube

too bad that isn't actually true.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Not a scientific poll by any means, but I've seen Ford play really well to the 905ers* who are happy to see Toronto being forced* to live within its means.


The politics of spite and vindictiveness.

World class.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Not a scientific poll by any means, but I've seen Ford play really well to the 905ers who are happy to see Toronto being forced to live within its means.


I would believe that.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Not a scientific poll by any means, but I've seen Ford play really well to the 905ers who are happy to see Toronto being forced to live within its means.


Maybe they should create a new city, He can be their Mayor.


----------



## Max

Capital idea! What shall it be called, though? Suburbio? Ford-On-Burb? Oakmissunmarkville?


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Capital idea! What shall it be called, though? Suburbio? Ford-On-Burb? Oakmissunmarkville?


Well, if we're Toronto, they can be the Greater Area.

Though I prefer the nickname "North of Bloor"


----------



## Lawrence

...


----------



## i-rui

Backtracking on transit, Ford seeks a handout - The Globe and Mail

looks like Ford is starting to realize that his ideology takes a back seat to reality.


----------



## Macfury

I believe the reference was to the Toronto taxpayer. Toronto has traditionally gone begging to Ontario and the feds. That system needs to be dismantled from the top down. It can't be dismantled by failing to apply for available grants that will go to other projects in other communities.


----------



## groovetube

I think ford made a point of saying he'd balance budget without looking for handouts from the province.

I guess ten years of sitting on city council wasn't enough for Tommy boy to figure things out


----------



## Lawrence

i-rui said:


> Backtracking on transit, Ford seeks a handout - The Globe and Mail
> 
> looks like Ford is starting to realize that his ideology takes a back seat to reality.


Shouldn't that read "Horse Trading", Because that is what he's trying to do, Right?


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Shouldn't that read "Horse Trading", Because that is what he's trying to do, Right?


I think so.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> I think so.


Stop the presses....Start the Car!!!!
Macfury agree's with me.


----------



## Macfury

Hey, I agree or disagree with you on case-by-case basis--not as a matter of policy!


----------



## Lawrence

Will Mayor Ford rub out the chalk on city hall?

It's defacing public property, Will they have to fine City hall?

(Not meant to be in bad taste, principles only here)


----------



## mrjimmy

Lawrence said:


> Will Mayor Ford rub out the chalk on city hall?
> 
> It's defacing public property, Will they have to fine City hall?
> 
> (Not meant to be in bad taste, principles only here)


I suspect Mother Nature will take care of it first. Even Ford isn't stupid enough to do that...


----------



## groovetube

he's been surprisingly quiet lately.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> he's been surprisingly quiet lately.


Recovering from the Atwood assault. 

Also, when the city is teary-eyed over Jack Layton, it's a really bad time to start spouting non-Laytonian sentiments. 

Give him a week or two.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Also, when the city is teary-eyed over Jack Layton, it's a really bad time to start spouting non-Laytonian sentiments.


He's busy engineering non-Laytonian plans.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> He's busy engineering non-Laytonian plans.


Hmm... I've never pictured Ford as a man who 'engineers' anything.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Hmm... I've never pictured Ford as a man who 'engineers' anything.


He engineered an incredible victory over Smitherman.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> He engineered an incredible victory over Smitherman.


I'm not sure "incredible" is the word for it. That whole list was full of DBs.


----------



## groovetube

I never thought there was much incredible about having no clue, or bald faced lying to the public to get elected.

I've seen politicians lie before, but man rob ford really took that to a new level.


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> I'm not sure "incredible" is the word for it. That whole list was full of DBs.


Even though he was clearly a DB as well, that election was Smitherman's to take,


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> He engineered an incredible victory over Smitherman.


About as incredible as poking a hornet's nest with a stick. That's some fine engineerin'!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Even though he was clearly a DB as well, that election was Smitherman's to take,


I don't know... I live deep in the heart of Smitherman country, and I wasn't so sure about him just taking the election. Of course, it could be that I wasn't paying much attention then, and typically when I discuss politics I'm at work in FordNation.

But I do think a big part of Smitherman's downfall was that he thought it was his election to take.... I don't remember much of a campaign out of him until Ford started actually looking like a threat. Seems to be a mistake in politicians these days... they forget that they actually need to campaign and ask for votes, not just assume they have them.

And as a total side note, I wonder how Layton's death will affect Hudak's campaign. Should be interesting.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And as a total side note, I wonder how Layton's death will affect Hudak's campaign. Should be interesting.


Do you mean, divert some support from the Ontario Liberals to the NDP? I don't see that any Conservative voter would be likely to see this as a vote-changing event.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Do you mean, divert some support from the Ontario Liberals to the NDP? I don't see that any Conservative voter would be likely to see this as a vote-changing event.


No, I was thinking more that it would keep some of the Red Tory types from going Conservative and hanging on the to Liberals... I don't the Ontario NDP have much of a force. (I don't even remember who's running for them.)

As I said a few months ago, all Hudak had to do was keep his mouth shut and not be Dalton McGuinty, and he'd probably take this one, because nobody likes Dalton McGuinty.

However, Hudak has been opening his mouth and actually presenting a policy. The recent Ford antics in Toronto has made voters wary about a Conservative/right-wing hat trick. And ghost of Jack Layton looms. 

I don't know that we've hit a tipping point in all this yet, but I'm starting to wonder if Dalton might just be able to hang on.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I don't know that we've hit a tipping point in all this yet, but I'm starting to wonder if Dalton might just be able to hang on.


He might be able to hang on. Of course this is purely anecdotal, but I can tell you that no Conservative I know has been moved by Layton's death to skew their vote to Liberal.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> He might be able to hang on. Of course this is purely anecdotal, but I can tell you that no Conservative I know has been moved by Layton's death to skew their vote to Liberal.


I wouldn't expect any Conservatives to skew their vote to Liberal.

But up until fairly recently, I was expecting a lot of Liberals to go Conservative this election... now, not I'm so sure.


----------



## Max

I'm thinking along the same lines, Sonal.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> I'm thinking along the same lines, Sonal.


Interesting glimpse into a psyche that's completely alien to me--a very emotionally based type of voting.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Interesting glimpse into a psyche that's completely alien to me--a very emotionally based type of voting.


It's the new normal. It's what got Ford elected.


----------



## Max

Badda bing.

MF, are you channeling bryanc now?


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> It's the new normal. It's what got Ford elected.


Agreed. And in fact, I think most elections are decided emotionally....

Back on topic (sort a) again:
Toronto News: Atwood on Ford fight: ?I don?t need it? - thestar.com

I think Margaret Atwood has given the Fords a face-saving way to back down from this, if they choose to take it.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> It's the new normal. It's what got Ford elected.


zing indeed, and very true.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Badda bing.
> 
> MF, are you channeling bryanc now?


Who is bryanc?


----------



## Max

Uh-huh.


----------



## Macfury

Is it that actor from _Malcolm in the Middle_?


----------



## Max

Roger that, over.


----------



## mrjimmy

Max said:


> MF, are you channeling bryanc now?





Macfury said:


> Who is bryanc?


I think that's a yes.


----------



## Max

Oh, I concur, mrjimmy.


----------



## groovetube

Ford office aiming to take over Port Lands development - The Globe and Mail

Here comes a real smorgasbord of gravy for the developer friends to quickly slap up a disaster of a cold concrete mess on the waterfront.

man people are gullible.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Ford office aiming to take over Port Lands development - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Here comes a real smorgasbord of gravy for the developer friends to quickly slap up a disaster of a cold concrete mess on the waterfront.
> 
> man people are gullible.


Paula Fletcher's comment tells the tale:



> Area councillor Paula Fletcher said the city needs to be cautious about jumping from one model for development to another. “There is a desire to go faster. Is that possible? I don’t know,” she said. “We have great expectations for the waterfront. It belongs to Toronto. It doesn’t belong to one councillor.”


Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee want a football stadium with all the fat laden gravy that goes with it.


----------



## Max

Given half a chance, the brothers Ford will eff up the waterfront in a jiffy. Gravy train, indeed.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Given half a chance, the brothers Ford will eff up the waterfront in a jiffy. Gravy train, indeed.


Beginning what process that hasn't been steamrollering it already? That monstrosity popping up alongside the Distillery District is as bland and pathetic as anything you could dream up by throwing blueprints for any Mississauga subdivision in a blender and pouring them on the sidewalk.


----------



## groovetube

I think I said something about the gullible.

Yes I did.


----------



## mrjimmy

Just thought of a good description of the brothers:

Divisionaries. 

Perfect!


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Just thought of a good description of the brothers:
> 
> Divisionaries.


Oh for the old days when David Miller brought us all together...


----------



## mrjimmy

I can see the graphic now, Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee with Doug's and Rob's faces;_ The Divisionaries_ printed underneath in a heroic comic book type font. If I had the time I'd put one together.


----------



## Lawrence

mrjimmy said:


> Paula Fletcher's comment tells the tale:
> 
> 
> 
> Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee want a football stadium with all the fat laden gravy that goes with it.


Great, Let's cut affordable housing in favour of unaffordable housing.

Typical and despicable.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> I can see the graphic now, Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee with Doug's and Rob's faces;_ The Divisionaries_ printed underneath in a heroic comic book type font. If I had the time I'd put one together.


Who would buy it? You've pretty much played out the joke here in one or two lines.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Who would buy it? You've pretty much played out the joke here in one or two lines.


Oh I think the visual will appeal to many. Many times over.

Who said anything about selling? Free distribution to all! This is meant to discredit them further and discredit it would.

Must it always be about the money with you?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Oh I think the visual will appeal to many. Many times over.
> 
> Who said anything about selling? Free distribution to all! This is meant to discredit them further and discredit it would.
> 
> Must it always be about the money with you?


It certainly mustn't be about money if it involves your labour. Go for it!


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It certainly mustn't be about money if it involves your labour. Go for it!


Not labour MF, love...


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Not labour MF, love...


Show the love, mrjimmy, by publishing the fruits of your passion on EhMac. Oh how the supporters of Robert Ford will gnash their teeth when they see the full force of your love on display!


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Show the love, mrjimmy, by publishing the fruits of your passion on EhMac. Oh how the supporters of Robert Ford will gnash their teeth when they see the full force of your love on display!


One day MF, one day. 

Although, if there are those out there who have greater PS skills than I (many I'm sure) and who share the same feelings about the Dee and Dum, perhaps you could give it a whirl. You never know, it could go viral!


----------



## Macfury

Translation: your love has not overcome your inertia.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Translation: your love has not overcome your inertia.


Not today anyway.


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> Beginning what process that hasn't been steamrollering it already? That monstrosity popping up alongside the Distillery District is as bland and pathetic as anything you could dream up by throwing blueprints for any Mississauga subdivision in a blender and pouring them on the sidewalk.


Oh, I don't think it's as bad as all that. I applaud that tower, and the one that sprang up before it. Glad to see infill residences going up in the centre core - means people want to live here, work here, do business here. I find that promising. Besides, its aspect is no worse than 90% of the stuff that's been going up in the GTA over the last several years. This city isn't exactly on the cutting edge for realizing cool buildings. We try, sure, but we have a long way to go. And as far as Mississauga goes, one of the best high rise projects the GTA has ever seen is being finished up there now... the base ain't too purdy (different architect, apparently) but those curving, dancing towers are very nice indeed. Daring stuff that the downtown could more often emulate, methinks.

Ford would love some football stadium down at the waterfront. That's about the extent of his vision; that and cozying on up to some developer pals to throw up some cheap condos and get out while the getting's good. If he gets his way, we'll have the same sort of blocky grey debacle that characterized the development of Harbourfront, back in the early 80s.


----------



## i-rui

interesting :

Toronto News: ?Gravy train? architect Kouvalis now trying to fight it - thestar.com



> The irony that Kouvalis is now fighting the gravy train is not lost upon opposition councillors.
> 
> “Nobody in Toronto believes in the gravy train anymore and now we’re finding out Nick Kouvalis never did,” said Gord Perks.


----------



## Macfury

It was a marketing firm, for Pete's sake. They would try to prove aliens run the NDP if you paid them to.


----------



## i-rui

exactly. the entire "gravy train" motto (and by extension Ford's entire campaign since he never delved deeper than uttering the phrase) was complete marketing and not based in any reality.


----------



## groovetube

sure got the sheep all excited.


----------



## groovetube

Ford support falls as Toronto residents overwhelmingly reject service cuts: poll - The Globe and Mail

Well perhaps he shouldn't have lied to Torontonians to get elected. He may go down as the biggest failure of a mayor in recent Toronto history.


----------



## Max

Glad to see that the FordCo brand of shiny, sweaty hucksterism is becoming all too apparent to the COTU masses. In many ways, this guy resembles a terrible stereotype - a throughly corrupt small-town politico who talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Hope for the Portlands, after all.

About the only thing I can agree with is that the process is taking too long. That said, the Fordmayors look more and more like keeners salivating for a massive land grab. They promise to do it all in a decade but that's just window-dressing. They have development buddies. They're wheeling and dealing. What else is new? Transparency? Bah. Respect for taxpayers? Good sound bites, that's all.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> About the only thing I can agree with is that the process is taking too long. That said, the Fordmayors look more and more like keeners salivating for a massive land grab. They promise to do it all in a decade but that's just window-dressing. They have development buddies. They're wheeling and dealing. What else is new? Transparency? Bah. Respect for taxpayers? Good sound bites, that's all.


Too long is hard to judge. Part of the delay was early flipflopping on what to do with the Portlands, and part of it is simply that it's a very difficult piece of land to develop property--we have strong flood protection bylaws in Toronto, and former industrial wasteland at the mouth of the Don River is environmentally challenging to protect and develop. Everything has to be studied and cleared before anyone would be allowed to live there, and that process takes years. (Or else, you get properties that very few people will finance and insure, because there are known and unresolved environmental issues there.)

We have a building out in St Catherines that we picked up dirt cheap because you can't get a clean environmental report on it. There were no environmental problems--the work to remediate the site had been done before the building was built--but there was a multi-year process to register this fact with the Ministry of the Environment and Environment Canada. Consequently, very few investors would touch it, because you can't get conventional mortgage financing on it, and unconventional or private financing is expensive. Similar situation in the Portlands--all of that has to be done before anyone can buy and sell and develop per usual. And it's a slow process.

Friend of mine points out a contrast to the development in and around Downsview Park, which is considerably easier to develop, but has been moving much more slowly than the Waterfront, largely because the city agency in charge there keeps ordering more studies and more consultant reports and delaying.


----------



## MacDoc

*Recall anyone?*



> The poll found that:
> 
> - 77 per cent agreed or strongly agreed that their councillor should vote to protect services rather than heed the mayor’s wishes.
> 
> -* 27 per cent said they would vote for Mr. Ford as mayor if elections were held tomorrow, while 60 per cent said they wouldn’t vote him.*
> 
> - 54 per cent said their opinion of the mayor grown worse, 29 per cent said their perception of him hadn’t changed and 17 per cent said their opinion of Mr. Ford had improved.
> 
> The discontent isn’t limited to Ford-averse zones like the city’s centre or the Beaches.
> 
> In the mayor’s old ward – Etobicoke North, now held by his brother Doug – 64 per cent voted for Mr. Ford in the last election. Now only 45 per cent would cast a ballot for him again, a significant drop, even within the 6 per cent margin of error for results in that specific ward.



Ford support falls as Toronto residents overwhelmingly reject service cuts: poll - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Max

Sonal: don't get me wrong: I would rather it take too long than have it done wrong in a hurry. The Fordmayors want it all, now.


----------



## groovetube

nothing says beautiful waterfront like an american style bloody mega mall. Can't they build one of those in etobicoke?

And a monorail. That simpson's episode I posted during the toronto election actually came true! oh I wonder about how 'rails' were involved in this planning session.


----------



## Sonal

Max, no worries, I get you... just pointing out that it's a bloody long process no matter who is doing it. 



groovetube said:


> nothing says beautiful waterfront like an american style bloody mega mall. Can't they build one of those in etobicoke?


They're trying to do that. It's stalled for a few years now. Evidently, the Ford-supported megamall that was going to save Rexdale isn't getting enough traction from the private sector to move forward fast enough.

Toronto News: Ford-backed Woodbine Live! megaproject stalled - thestar.com


----------



## Max

Seems to be a pattern there. Ford loudly proclaiming that the private sector wants something and will gladly fork over the money - the public on the hook for squat. Alas, reality paints a different picture.

Sonal: I sense that the FordMayors are simply impatient. They want to cash in on the Portlands while the city is on _their _watch. I don't think they give a fig about flood control, or naturalizing the mouth of the Don, or making a truly fantastic waterfront for the city of Toronto. That environmental stuff is not their cuppa.

Byt the way, has anyone in the COTU seen the cover of the latest Now magazine? It's a classic.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Seems to be a pattern there. Ford loudly proclaiming that the private sector wants something and will gladly fork over the money - the public on the hook for squat. Alas, reality paints a different picture.
> 
> Sonal: I sense that the FordMayors are simply impatient. They want to cash in on the Portlands while the city is on _their _watch. I don't think they give a fig about flood control, or naturalizing the mouth of the Don, or making a truly fantastic waterfront for the city of Toronto. That environmental stuff is not their cuppa.
> 
> Byt the way, has anyone in the COTU seen the cover of the latest Now magazine? It's a classic.


I saw that cover on Twitter. 

Everyone gets kudos for starting a plan. No one gets anything for the long annoying process of implementing a plan, except perhaps a lot of criticism for it taking a long time.

My hunch when the megamall thing was first proposed was that someone had approached a Ford about it, since up until then, I don't think either of them had paid an iota of attention to a such a downtown-project like the Portlands--after all, they could say that Downsview Park was taking too long and build a megamall and a ferris wheel and an monorail there for the benefit of all those people in west North York. Et voila. (I also have a hunch that there was some gravy in it for them.  )


----------



## Sonal

Oh, and an interesting read for all:

Toronto Portlands Letter


----------



## groovetube

This is for those truly gullible to fall for the privatization scam.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Max

That was _beautiful_. Beautiful! Love how Ford pinched it off at the end. Gate closed, horse already bolted.


----------



## groovetube

we need someone with a brain like Adam Vaughn instead of the fool we have now sellin out the store like an idiot.

It's amazing how many people fell for his sheer stupidity, but thankfully, it appears many are starting to wake up. Many, but not all I bet.


----------



## groovetube

it's funny to see the right and ford supporters suddenly go quiet.

I bumped into someone I know who argued with me that ford is the right thing for the city, and he's going to clean it up. He seemed to have a completely different view today.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> it's funny to see the right and ford supporters suddenly go quiet.
> 
> I bumped into someone I know who argued with me that ford is the right thing for the city, and he's going to clean it up. He seemed to have a completely different view today.


I think everyone is off eating their humble pie.


----------



## Macfury

I stop in occasionally, but turn away from the lefty circle jerk.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> I stop in occasionally, but turn away from the lefty circle jerk.


Gonna deposit your gravy elsewhere huh?


----------



## groovetube

Yeah people get excited when they discover a total scam on tax payers macfury. You may want to avert your eyes because a lefty discovered it.

But you're with ford all the way I bet.


----------



## Max

MF is just in sour grapes mode.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> MF is just in sour grapes mode.


No, I'm pretty happy, actually.


----------



## Max

Oh yeah, that explains your happy circle jerk comment.

Yeah.

Happy happy joy joy!


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Oh yeah, that explains your happy circle jerk comment.
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> Happy happy joy joy!


Why can't I be happy while showing disdain for socialists?


----------



## Max

A rhetorical question, doubtless.


----------



## Macfury

Not at all. Let me transform it into a statement:

"I can be happy while showing disdain for socialists."


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> MF is just in sour grapes mode.


Oh I doubt it. To do so would be to admit he fell for a snake oil salesman who whispered sweet libertarian nothings into his ear, like several other conservatives so far. He still actually believes politicians further left would have spent more money despite all the evidence to the contrary.

It'll always be someone else's fault, which is pretty much how most libertarians I see defend themselves.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Oh I doubt it. To do so would be to admit he fell for a snake oil salesman who whispered sweet libertarian nothings into his ear, like several other conservatives so far. He still actually believes politicians further left would have spent more money despite all the evidence to the contrary.
> 
> It'll always be someone else's fault, which is pretty much how most libertarians I see defend themselves.


No. To be fair, I believe MacFury felt that politicians to the left would not have cut his vehicle registration tax, and on that basis he is probably correct.


----------



## Max

MF: I hope you're not being too fey when expressing your disdain; people will talk. Do remember to get up into a high dudgeon about it, will you? That will doubtless help.


----------



## i-rui

jawknee said:


> Gonna deposit your gravy elsewhere huh?


lol


----------



## Sonal

Oh dear...
Toronto News: Doug Ford accused of ?horse-trading? for Port Lands vote - thestar.com

Keep in mind that councillor Matlow is neither a Fordie nor an anti-Fordies... he's among that mass in the middle.


----------



## Max

The brothers Ford should keep on doing what comes naturally to them.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> MF: I hope you're not being too fey when expressing your disdain; people will talk. Do remember to get up into a high dudgeon about it, will you? That will doubtless help.


Don't you support fey rights?


----------



## Max

If you need to be fey, then heck, I'm going to support your right to feydom. That's just the kinda guy I am.


----------



## Sonal

Toronto News: James: Ford poised to lose Waterfront vote - thestar.com



> Councillor Lee says Doug Ford tried to intimidate him into voting for [Ford's Vision for the Portlands] and other issues the administration wanted to implement. Doug threatened to unleash automated robo calls in Lee’s local ward to rally support against Lee.


----------



## groovetube

This is what happens when you unleash these dumb* conservatives with some power. In fact I wouldn't even call them conservatives anymore, that's too respectful a label for these bullies.


----------



## groovetube

Toronto takes tough service cuts off the table after all-night meeting - The Globe and Mail

I wonder how much of this is coming from up above telling to cool their jest about cuts in services etc until the provincial election is over.

damn robbie yer scarin the people!


----------



## Sonal

I was keeping up the the meeting via Twitter. My favourite moments were Del Grande losing it over the deputant who showed up dressed as Santa, and the deputant who used to be on a football team coached by Rob Ford who said he was a schoolyard bully back then too.


----------



## Sonal

Toronto News: Ford gives up goal of seizing Port Lands - thestar.com


----------



## Max

Not terribly surprised that this has happened, given the admittedly astonishing events of late; but grateful all the same.

Best thing that could happen is that the development of the Portlands gets speeded up somewhat - something the Fordmayors wanted all along. They may have been handed a defeat but there's still a teensy bit of room for them to spin a positive story.


----------



## kps

You peasants...where's your vision?....what have you got against ferris wheels anyway?

Toronto could have been another London or Vienna or Beijing.


----------



## groovetube

I'll take Chicago for starters.

But besides Chicago, the water front would have been an absolute flipping disaster under those doofuses.


----------



## Max

Peasant? Really, Kps.

Toronto is not London, or NYC, or anyplace else. Time Toronto just came into its own and stopped the inane, insecure comparisons.


----------



## kps

Max said:


> Time Toronto just came into its own and stopped the inane, insecure comparisons.


That was the point ....LOL

You weren't taking that post seriously now, were you Max?


----------



## Max

I was!

Hey, we don't hear from you that often lately. Plus I haven't gotten the first cuppa joe down my gullet yet.

Those are my excuses and I'm sticking to them.


----------



## kps

Then I hope your fist cuppa was a strong one...


----------



## Max

No, it'll be medium-strength. I save the kick-2ss jolts for the weekend.


----------



## Max

So now that a compromise has been reached and the need for speedier execution has hopefully been passed along to the main planning agency, things will shape up nicely for the eastern waterfront. This area has served as my personal playground for the past 12 years or so and its sheer size and potential has always made me feel that great things will happen there, one day. It's as large as the central business district and it's ridiculously close by. It offers stunning views of the city skyline and, even in its present state, offers tremendous value as a recreational place. Between the Porlands and the Leslie Spit, there are plenty of attractions for bladers, runners, cyclists, birders and other naturalists, photographic hounds like myself, film crews.... the list goes on. As I continue to frequent the intimate nooks and crannies of the Portlands, I keep thinking that it's a place in held in an erie sort of suspension - that it will be unrecognizable in half a generation.

We may not get a ferris wheel but we just might get something that truly rocks.


----------



## Sonal

I hope so, Max. Finally took a walk in my own backyard and explored the Spit more of the Port lands area last weekend. It's incredibly huge. 

I used to think the best view of the skyline was from the Toronto Islands, but I've changed my mind... it's from the Spit.


----------



## Max

Indeed. Welcome to one of the best-kept secrets of the COTU, Sonal. It's truly amazing that this preserve is so close to Canada's largest city. It's such a weird hybrid - the product of continuous landfill, utterly artificial - yet an important migratory spot for so many ornithological species. That's just one of its charms. For me it's the fact that it's not terribly manicured and over-packaged; it has its own rugged charms and yes, it's large - it's quite the distance from the entrance to the lighthouse. If you're walking, it's something of a commitment.

Another thing which fascinates me - among other things, the Spit is made of the crumbled bones of many a building that once graced Toronto's skyline - edifices great and small. So much water-washed masonry, concrete, rebar, porcelain, tile... all that building material giving way to another kind of "build" altogether.


----------



## Sonal

I live where it's just a bit far to walk to the Spit and a bit close to drive (and I don't bike, but that would probably be better way to go.) 

We walked to Leslieville for brunch, then down the Spit to the lighthouse and back, across the Martin Goodman trail to Cherry Street and then up and through the Distillery and back over to my place by the Market. Picnicked on what looked like some broken concrete telephone poles by the water. Had a beer at the Cherry Restaurant, which has been really beautifully renovated. Total distance 20 kms. 

But an incredible walk. Didn't see a lot of birds, but did see a lot of butterflies. And I did love how so much wildness has grown up over so much broken down man-made structure. What struck me at first when we began was how little of broken bits and pieces of things you see and how much plant life... it was on the way back through the south arm (where we went off the path and through the part that's still used for dumping) that I saw more of what I expected I would see. Plus, I always forget how enormous Lake Ontario really is when my view of it is usually for Toronto to the Islands...


----------



## groovetube

In the 80s I had a job driving a truck loading up reno refuse, and I made many a trip with "clean fill" to the spit. I'm glad to hear the doofus duo has abandoned (for now) their ridiculous plans.


----------



## kps

It's so sad how these two are becoming the epitome of the "mangiacake" Torontonian. More like Bob & Doug than Rob & Doug. LOL!

Anyone pining for the days of Lastman yet?


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> In the 80s I had a job driving a truck loading up reno refuse, and I made many a trip with "clean fill" to the spit. I'm glad to hear the doofus duo has abandoned (for now) their ridiculous plans.


Oh gawd, another ex pebble hauler.


----------



## groovetube

it was crappy work. Shovelling reno crap onto the truck and hauling 8 loads a day.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Anyone pining for the days of Lastman yet?


Hey, it was Lastman who put this Waterfront Toronto gig together. 

I grew up in North York. Lastman was the only mayor I ever had until Miller. And now Ford. So of the three...


----------



## Max

kps said:


> It's so sad how these two are becoming the epitome of the "mangiacake" Torontonian. More like Bob & Doug than Rob & Doug. LOL!
> 
> Anyone pining for the days of Lastman yet?


I don't miss Mel one iota. How could I, when Rob and Doug are in play? These guys are their own worst enemy.

Although Mel's boiling cauldron quote was comic gold, I admit.


----------



## i-rui

Fletcher pitches de-amalgamation of Toronto | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

i hope this gets a lot of support.


----------



## Lawrence

Hi, I'm new here, Wanna buy a Zoo?
I can give to you for less than the Brooklyn bridge.

Interested?


----------



## Sonal

Is Toronto broke or not? « Spacing Toronto

Interesting and informative.


----------



## BigDL

I have to say you gotta be some kind of ar$ehole to come up with a reaction and explanation as lame as the ones Rob Ford provides.



CBC News said:


> Rob Ford calls 911 after CBC comics visit home
> 
> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford called police after a crew from CBC's satirical show This Hour Has 22 Minutes showed up unexpectedly outside his house to interview him.
> 
> "I came out of my house and I was ambushed," Ford said.
> 
> Actress Mary Walsh, playing the character of journalist Marg Delahunty, was trying to interview Ford for a regular segment on This Hour Has 22 Minutes, in which Delahunty approaches politicians for surprise comedic interviews. Scores of Canadian politicians, including former Ontario premier Mike Harris, Quebec Premier Jean Charest and former prime minister Jean Chrétien, have been subjected to Walsh's surprise approach. Most try to endure the questions in Walsh's mock interviews with good humour.
> 
> But Ford was not laughing after Walsh's visit.
> 
> It was dark, Ford told reporters Monday evening, and two people who didn't identify themselves came running out of a car parked outside his home in Etobicoke and stopped him from getting into his car.


*"It was dark"* It was dark? In which Provence west of Ontario?

Listen to the audio clip of Rob Ford press conference as well as the video clip


----------



## i-rui

> "I'm open to the media, but when you come to my private house early in the morning and ambush me, I think that crosses the line."


what joke. he's been ducking the media since he took office.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> I have to say you gotta be some kind of ar$ehole to come up with a reaction and explanation as lame as the ones Rob Ford provides.
> 
> 
> 
> *"It was dark"* It was dark? In which Provence west of Ontario?
> 
> Listen to the audio clip of Rob Ford press conference as well as the video clip


Have you ever seen the sword that Marg D carries?????????? Call 911??? He should have shot them as they stood in his driveway .......... that would have served them right for being so funny. :lmao:XX)


----------



## Macfury

Is that show still on? No wonder he didn't know what was happening.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Is that show still on? No wonder he didn't know what was happening.


That explains one thing. 

Ford must have been on love potion #9, "because he couldn't tell if it was day or night" maybe that is why he's so confused!


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> That explains one thing.
> 
> Ford must have been on love potion #9, "because he couldn't tell if it was day or night" maybe that is why he's so confused!


Even on Love Potion #9, he didn't kiss Mary Walsh.


----------



## CubaMark

I doubt the Mayor watches CBC anyway - all full of lefties and commies and such... didn't his pal Harper defund it already? Need to make room for another channel of Fox news so he doesn't have to flip the dial so far around to get back to it...


----------



## groovetube

they've already shovelled half a billion to quebecor, but the righties are quite ready to face that one yet it seems.


----------



## Max

Heard a rumour HarperCo is getting ready to outlaw humour. It's what the super-prisons are for. They're really reaching out on this one: Rob Ford is being given the nod to spearhead the legislation. They'll be issuing armbands for all CBC types, too - makes it easier to identify the transgressors. In fact, they're thinking of building a humongous left-wing registry. Word is it'll cost about a trillion dollars but they promise it'll make the homeland safer for all.

it's going to be great.


----------



## groovetube

Just saw the video of it. So she goes up to rob ford with a camera crew in broad day light, with a microphone that says "this hour has 22 minutes".

And he calls the cops. Did he tell the. Ops the left wing pinkos were attacking him??


----------



## Lawrence

Pssst....Wanna buy some Toronto Hydro shares?

NEWSTALK 1010 - IN-DEPTH RADIO :: Toronto Hydro For Sale? - Local News :: Local News Stories


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Heard a rumour HarperCo is getting ready to outlaw humour.


Then the CBC is safe!


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Pssst....Wanna buy some Toronto Hydro shares?
> 
> NEWSTALK 1010 - IN-DEPTH RADIO :: Toronto Hydro For Sale? - Local News :: Local News Stories


I'm buying, Hydro is sucking me dry so at least I'll get a little back.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> Just saw the video of it. So she goes up to rob ford with a camera crew in broad day light, with a microphone that says "this hour has 22 minutes".
> 
> And he calls the cops. Did he tell the. Ops the left wing pinkos were attacking him??


lets be some what fair.. they jumped out of a van screaming "we got you now" - did this at his home with his 5 year old kids in tow.. 
if I were Rob Ford I would of belted them with a bat... ( for traumatizing the kids )
sorry but leave the stupidity of politics at the office - home should be his sanctuary, remember Ford has had a few loonies threaten his life.. so how would you react? sorry he did the right thing...
if it was me - i would ran them over or use a weapon of my choice to protect my family on my private property...


----------



## Max

Why say sorry when you aren't sorry?


----------



## Sonal

A friend of mine (paramedic) pointed out the irony of Rob Ford calling 911 over This Hour has 22 Minutes showing up when these are the very services he wants to cut...


----------



## Max

He wants to cut it for _us,_ Sonal, not for himself. It's different!


----------



## i-rui

macintosh doctor said:


> lets be some what fair.. they jumped out of a van screaming "we got you now" - did this at his home with his 5 year old kids in tow..
> if I were Rob Ford I would of belted them with a bat... ( for traumatizing the kids )
> sorry but leave the stupidity of politics at the office - home should be his sanctuary, remember Ford has had a few loonies threaten his life.. so how would you react? sorry he did the right thing...


did you even watch the video? it's obvious there was zero threat to anyone.

I actually don't have a problem with him ignoring them, going inside and even calling the police (on the regular line), but no way he should have called 911 because that's for emergencies, and as a public servant he should know better.



macintosh doctor said:


> if it was me - i would ran them over or use a weapon of my choice to protect my family on my private property...


...and you would be put in jail. this isn't america.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> He wants to cut it for _us,_ Sonal, not for himself. It's different!


I suppose neither you nor I are in danger of being ambushed by Marg. Sigh.


----------



## Lawrence

.


----------



## i-rui

^lol


----------



## mrjimmy

Lawrence said:


> .


:lmao:


----------



## Max

Sonal said:


> I suppose neither you nor I are in danger of being ambushed by Marg. Sigh.


Sad but true. Ford is great for sheer entertainment, however. Bull in a china shop.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Sad but true. Ford is great for sheer entertainment, however. Bull in a china shop.


I got rid of my cable TV. I now follow municipal politics largely for it's entertainment value. 

Certainly beats Jersey Shore....


----------



## Max

Yep! Cable is a burn anyway. And with Rob Ford, it's all about truth being stranger than fiction. At least he still thinks he's a great mayor. Gotta hand it to the man - that certain combination of maverick confidence and delusion.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Yep! Cable is a burn anyway. And with Rob Ford, it's all about truth being stranger than fiction. At least he still thinks he's a great mayor. Gotta hand it to the man - that certain combination of maverick confidence and delusion.


Hay, Max--do you think you're a pretty great voter?


----------



## ehMax

I loathe Mayor Ford. Despise him. But I'm afraid I'm on his side on this one. I think going to his house in the morning with his kids present is way crossing the line. If a stranger came up to me like that at my house when I'm about to take my kids to school, s*** would get real in a hurry.


----------



## Max

Hey, MacFury - chillax dude. It's all good. I laugh at Ford, you laugh at me. The world keeps spinning. Or is your skin as thin as Mr. Ford's?


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Hey, MacFury - chillax dude. It's all good. I laugh at Ford, you laugh at me. The world keeps spinning. Or is your skin as thin as Mr. Ford's?


I thought my question was a laugh.


----------



## mrjimmy

ehMax said:


> I loathe Mayor Ford. Despise him. But I'm afraid I'm on his side on this one. I think going to his house in the morning with his kids present is way crossing the line. If a stranger came up to me like that at my house when I'm about to take my kids to school, s*** would get real in a hurry.


According to Mary Walsh, his daughter wasn't with him.

From The Toronto Star:



> Walsh said the mayor’s daughter wasn’t there when she showed up in his driveway in character as the outlandish, loudmouthed Marg Delahunty.
> 
> “There was no child at all,” she told the Star. “I mean, was she inside his suit jacket? We never saw any children.”
> 
> Ford’s daughter was with him but fled back in the house crying and “freaking out,” the mayor told Newstalk 1010 Tuesday evening.
> 
> In the clip that aired on CBC’s This Hour has 22 Minutes on Tuesday night there were no children in sight outside Ford’s home.


Seems like Ford may be using his child as an excuse for his over reaction. A play straight out of his own handbook. About as credible as that sea of gravy....


----------



## Lawrence

The CBC Ambushes Ford and his 5 year year old daughter





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## BigDL

Lawrence said:


> The CBC Ambushes Ford and his 5 year year old daughter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.





mrjimmy said:


> According to Mary Walsh, his daughter wasn't with him.
> 
> From The Toronto Star:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like Ford may be using his child as an excuse for his over reaction. A play straight out of his own handbook. About as credible as that sea of gravy....


Ford said child was there and apparently no child, he also said it was dark. My question is what kind of camera is 22 Minutes using to make night look like day.

Hollywood would shoot film back in the day and use filters to darken the scene to look like night. 

How could the video look like daylight? Did Rob Ford misrepresent the facts?


----------



## groovetube

ford misrepresent the facts?

His fans will yell NOOO!!


----------



## Macfury

I agree with the video when it asks whether we're still paying for this tired CBC schtick.


----------



## groovetube

It's fascinating not one right wing soldier has said a peep about the half billion in Quebecor's pockets.


----------



## groovetube

ehMax said:


> I loathe Mayor Ford. Despise him. But I'm afraid I'm on his side on this one. I think going to his house in the morning with his kids present is way crossing the line. If a stranger came up to me like that at my house when I'm about to take my kids to school, s*** would get real in a hurry.


sure perhaps a private citizen.

But in public life, if this makes someone uneasy, there's always an easy return to private if it suits.

As was mentioned he misrepresented the situation to make it sound worse than it was.


----------



## groovetube

..


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> sure perhaps a private citizen.
> 
> But in public life, if this makes someone uneasy, there's always an easy return to private if it suits.
> 
> As was mentioned he misrepresented the situation to make it sound worse than it was.


Groove, they crosses the frigging line. Ford may be a putz and I don't care if he's overplaying it, the fact remains that a non-news crew complete with a nutcase with a plastic sword dressed up as a viking has no right to invade anyone's privacy and trespass on their property. They didn't do it with all the others they ambushed previously, makes you think why...doesn't it?


----------



## ehMax

Even if his daughter wasn't there, or she was inside, it's the guys house and should be off-limits. I don't care if he's in public office, nobody should deserve to have the front of their private residence filmed and put on national TV nor ambushed stepping outsider their door in the morning. 

As for being dark, they said they were there at 8AM. The sun rises at 7:45 AM these days, and it still could of been fairly dark. Cameras these days can make it look a lot brighter. At dusk or dawn, pull out your iPhone, turn on the camera and look how bright it records it. 

I think the guys a meathead, and I'd love to see comedians stick it to him, but anywhere besides coming to his private home uninvited. 

Anyways, I think they crossed the line. 

Also, while I do really like the CBC, This Hour has 22 minutes has got to be thee least funny show on television. The majority of their jokes are embarrassingly unfunny. They're so bad, they make me feel uncomfortable.


----------



## Macfury

ehmax said:


> even if his daughter wasn't there, or she was inside, it's the guys house and should be off-limits. I don't care if he's in public office, nobody should deserve to have the front of their private residence filmed and put on national tv nor ambushed stepping outsider their door in the morning.
> 
> As for being dark, they said they were there at 8am. The sun rises at 7:45 am these days, and it still could of been fairly dark. Cameras these days can make it look a lot brighter. At dusk or dawn, pull out your iphone, turn on the camera and look how bright it records it.
> 
> I think the guys a meathead, and i'd love to see comedians stick it to him, but anywhere besides coming to his private home uninvited.
> 
> Anyways, i think they crossed the line.
> 
> Also, while i do really like the cbc, this hour has 22 minutes has got to be thee least funny show on television. The majority of their jokes are embarrassingly unfunny. They're so bad, they make me feel uncomfortable.


+1


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> Groove, they crosses the frigging line. Ford may be a putz and I don't care if he's overplaying it, the fact remains that a non-news crew complete with a nutcase with a plastic sword dressed up as a viking has no right to invade anyone's privacy and trespass on their property. They didn't do it with all the others they ambushed previously, makes you think why...doesn't it?


Freedom is another word for nothing left to lose, And nothing ain't worth nothing but it's free.


----------



## kps

BigDL said:


> Freedom is another word for nothing left to lose.


Ok Janice...


----------



## Lawrence

.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Groove, they crosses the frigging line. Ford may be a putz and I don't care if he's overplaying it, the fact remains that a non-news crew complete with a nutcase with a plastic sword dressed up as a viking has no right to invade anyone's privacy and trespass on their property. They didn't do it with all the others they ambushed previously, makes you think why...doesn't it?


sorry I don't agree, I don't think his driveway is off limits at all. W5, etc do it all the time.

Perhaps if they walked into his backyard or something you'd have point.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> sorry I don't agree, I don't think his driveway is off limits at all. W5, etc do it all the time.
> 
> Perhaps if they walked into his backyard or something you'd have point.


W5 is not a comedy show, there is a distinction as I mentioned...that's just for starters.

My other issue is that Ford is the only one of their _ambushees_ that they went after at his home. 

Sorry pal, but total fail on their part.


----------



## groovetube

It doesn't matter what the distinction is. We could debate all we want whether it was a good idea or not for 22 minutes to walk on ford's driveway with a camera crew. I say, if you're the mayor of toronto, and you have a problem with a camera crew on your driveway, step down. PERIOD. Don't give me this stupidity of lies about it being dark and there was child scared. C'mon.

There are conservative blogs out there calling for ford to have kicked her in the face. It's unbelievable the crap I've seen about this it makes your head spin. Ford simply hates the CBC and lefties. End of story.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> It doesn't matter what the distinction is. We could debate all we want whether it was a good idea or not for 22 minutes to walk on ford's driveway with a camera crew. I say, if you're the mayor of toronto, and you have a problem with a camera crew on your driveway, step down. PERIOD. Don't give me this stupidity of lies about it being dark and there was child scared. C'mon.
> 
> There are conservative blogs out there calling for ford to have kicked her in the face. It's unbelievable the crap I've seen about this it makes your head spin. Ford simply hates the CBC and lefties. End of story.


So you have no issue with anyone trespassing on your property, is that correct? Good, I'll send a few Occupy Toronto folk to camp out on your front lawn. :lmao:

It doesn't matter if you're in public life or not. Ford, even though he's a doofus, is also a citizen entitled to privacy the same as you or I and who cares if he hates the CBC, what has that got to do with anything.

There are ways to get access to public figures and there are places where they can also be "ambushed" without compromising their privacy.

If that was me, it wouldn't be a 911 call that crew would be running away from...lol


----------



## Lawrence

Source: Newstalk 1010



> Mayor Accused of Yelling Profanity at 9-1-1 Dispatchers
> Posted By: Michelle Rosa · 10/27/2011 6:02:00 AM
> 
> WARNING: this article contains language that may offend some
> 
> There are allegations that Toronto Mayor Rob Ford used a string of profanity when he called 9-1-1 Monday morning to get police to his house because of the stunt by Mary Walsh of the comedy show, "This Hour has 22 minutes."
> 
> The CBC has quoted several unnamed police sources as saying Ford called 9-1-1 twice and asked for public assistance. When he called back the second time he was very agitated.
> 
> These sources say the Mayor turned on the dispatcher and yelled *"You f--king bitches. Don't you f--king know? I'm Rob f--king Ford, the mayor of this city."* He allegedly used the f-word liberally throughout.
> 
> The CBC claims that there are recordings of the call. Officially Mark Pugash of the Toronto Police Service says they cannot discuss a private call to the 9-1-1 service. Allegedly the recordings of the call have spread throughout the police service. When the CBC contacted Mike McCormack, the president of the Toronto Police Association, he would not discuss the matter either.


:clap::lmao:


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> So you have no issue with anyone trespassing on your property, is that correct? Good, I'll send a few Occupy Toronto folk to camp out on your front lawn. :lmao:
> 
> It doesn't matter if you're in public life or not. Ford, even though he's a doofus, is also a citizen entitled to privacy the same as you or I and who cares if he hates the CBC, what has that got to do with anything.
> 
> There are ways to get access to public figures and there are places where they can also be "ambushed" without compromising their privacy.
> 
> If that was me, it wouldn't be a 911 call that crew would be running away from...lol


I don't know how we got from someone bothering me wih a mic to someone actually living on my property. Where did conversation go there? If someone showed up at my door you can bet I wouldn't be a doofus running screaming aargh it's the cee bee ceeeeee! Screaming and dialing 911. Jesus what a doofus.


----------



## BigDL

kps said:


> So you have no issue with anyone trespassing on your property, is that correct?


 It is not trespassing to walk onto a person's property in the front yard to ask the person a question, (If you are the Mayor Canada's largest city you should reasonably expect this when you ran for office) it is trespassing when you are asked to leave and refuse to comply with the landowners request.



kps said:


> It doesn't matter if you're in public life or not. Ford, even though he's a doofus, is also a citizen entitled to privacy the same as you or I and who cares if he hates the CBC, what has that got to do with anything.


 Is the Mayor of Toronto a volunteering position or a paid position. Should protesters show up at his home? IMHO No! 



kps said:


> There are ways to get access to public figures and there are places where they can also be "ambushed" without compromising their privacy.
> 
> If that was me, it wouldn't be a 911 call that crew would be running away from...lol


Apparently this Mayor doesn't have the wit nor wisdom to use humour to his favour. Many politicians go with the schtick and are shown in a good light. 

And then there's Rob Ford or his other brother, as they appear as buffoons to send up Toronto's political leadership.


----------



## Macfury

Really, who could use that tired old Walsh schtick to their favour? It's a lose-lose all around.


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> It is not trespassing to walk onto a person's property in the front yard to ask the person a question, (If you are the Mayor Canada's largest city you should reasonably expect this when you ran for office) it is trespassing when you are asked to leave and refuse to comply with the landowners request.
> 
> Is the Mayor of Toronto a volunteering position or a paid position. Should protesters show up at his home? IMHO No!
> 
> Apparently this Mayor doesn't have the wit nor wisdom to use humour to his favour. Many politicians go with the schtick and are shown in a good light.
> 
> And then there's Rob Ford or his other brother, as they appear as buffoons to send up Toronto's political leadership.


he would have been far smarter to play it up and simply laugh at them. 

But clearly he's just pants peeingly terrified of the CBC so I guess that opportunity for him went up in smoke.

Now he'll have to contend with the jeers, the fun poking, and now the hilarious 911 tapes. "I'm Rob effing FORD!

love it  Thanks Mary Walsh...


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> he would have been far smarter to play it up and simply laugh at them.
> 
> But clearly he's just pants peeingly terrified of the CBC so I guess that opportunity for him went up in smoke.
> 
> Now he'll have to contend with the jeers, the fun poking, and now the hilarious 911 tapes. "I'm Rob effing FORD!
> 
> love it  Thanks Mary Walsh...


It's kind of a pattern for Toronto's Mayors to over react. Mel calling the Army to shovel snow, Rob calling 9-1-1 to swear and demand assistance for a property complaint, involving a tricker treater and some sort of buffoon.

Perhaps some voters should have to pass a test to be allowed to vote.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Really, who could use that tired old Walsh schtick to their favour? It's a lose-lose all around.


I know one who couldn't and then go to great lengths to let it be known afar and wide how to handle such a situation badly. 

Great managerial skills there Rob. From the jaws of victory you snatched defeat. Way to go. Your supporters must be proud.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> I know one who couldn't and then go to great lengths to let it be known afar and wide how to handle such a situation badly.
> 
> Great managerial skills there Rob. From the jaws of victory you snatched defeat. Way to go. Your supporters must be proud.


His supporters think he stood up for himself in front of a comic hack. They're not thinking of it days later, like his detractors.


----------



## Lawrence

More video feed from Yahoo dot com

No sign of a 5 year daughter in this video feed either

Love it

:clap:


----------



## SINC

The CBC is well on the way to obscurity and that tired old woman who runs around in a Halloween costume harassing public figures has worn out her welcome with viewers, much like her network.


----------



## Lawrence

SINC said:


> The CBC is well on the way to obscurity and that tired old woman who runs around in a Halloween costume harassing public figures has worn out her welcome with viewers, much like her network.


They really should have sent in Rick Mercer,
Even Harper enjoyed clowning around with Rick.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

Mercer would have had a chance. Not tired old Walsh.


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> They really should have sent in Rick Mercer,
> Even Harper enjoyed clowning around with Rick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



Classic Rick Mercer, and PM Harper was great as well.


----------



## Lawrence

*Should Mayor Ford Apologize to the 9-1-1 operators?*

(You may be surprised by the poll results, Vote and look)


----------



## Lawrence

*Source Close to Mayor's Office Denies Profane Tirade to 9-1-1*

(Hopefully we'll get to hear or read the original transcript soon)


----------



## groovetube

I think if we want to see the definition of obscurity one needs to look no further than the other network we throw half a billion at that runs sunTV


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> I think if we want to see the definition of obscurity one needs to look no further than the other network we throw half a billion at that runs sunTV


Actually I just heard on the news at five that there is a copy of the original 9-1-1 phone call,
It's floating around the Police call centre, Also there is an investigation to contain it.

I hope it leaks out to the Internet, If it does, I'll be trying to get a copy of it for sure.

:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

well there was that leak that Layton was found in the rub and tug, surely the same leak will occur


----------



## Lawrence

Edit ehMax... Watch the language please. Photo removed


----------



## groovetube

ha. This one ain't gonna go away for the rest of his term. It'll make the rounds next election.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> ha. This one ain't gonna go away for the rest of his term. It'll make the rounds next election.


The sound bites from the 911 call alone. He just gets better and better.


----------



## groovetube

just a year in. The chest of goodies will be full in no time.


----------



## Lawrence

BY POSTCITY.COM STAFF



> It’s me, bitches: 11 ways that Rob Ford could have better dealt with emergency dispatchers
> 
> 
> 
> Guess who?
> 
> So it’s looking like Rob Ford is probably wishing he had put his foot in his mouth. Again. According to the CBC, the mayor apparently unfurled some expletives at a 911 dispatcher during that 22 Minutes ambush on Monday. It seems like dispatchers got a taste of Rob “The Jock” Ford. How predictable. Actually, busting out any other personality would probably have been better. Here’s a list of suggestions.
> 
> The Rhett Butler: "Frankly, you bitches, I don't give a damn."
> The Snoop Dogg: “Yo… biznitches! It's me, the top dogg of the T-sizzle."
> The Nero: "You… plebians. Don’t you know? I am the almighty, all-knowing, all-seeing overlord of the fiefdom known as 'Toronto.'"
> The Darth Vader: “You… I am your mayor.”
> The Emeril Lagasse: "Don’t you know? I'm your mayor. BAM!"
> The Sarah Palin: "Am I your mayor, bitches? You betcha! [Wink!]"
> The Will Hunting: "I'm your mayor, bitches. How do you like THEM apples!?"
> The Scholar: “You… ignoramus. Is it not apparent? This is the democratically elected, benevolent and the occasionally — unjustifiably — criticized¹ mayor of Toronto.”
> The Mercutio: “I am thy mayor. Didst thou not know? A plague on both your houses!”
> The James Bond: “Ford. Rob Ford. Bitches!”
> The Yoda: Bitches you are, hmmm that you don't know. The mayor of this city am I. Rob f---ing Ford.


----------



## Lawrence

Apparently this isn't the fist time he's thought of using the "B" word





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Lawrence

Lawrence said:


> Edit ehMax... Watch the language please. Photo removed


I can't post a link to that actual photo,
It's on Yfrog and photo links won't work for that site.

Oh well.


----------



## Lawrence

.


----------



## Lawrence

Ford Can Release 911 Tape If He Wants: Police



> Ford Can Release 911 Tape If He Wants: Police
> Posted By: Russ Courtney · 10/28/2011 2:20:00 AM
> 
> If the audio of Rob Ford's 911 call, following an ambush at his home by a CBC comedian, is to be released, it'll be up to the mayor to give the word.
> 
> Toronto police say Ford can get the tape if he wants and can then do whatever he wants with it.
> 
> Ford said Thursday he didn't know the decision to release the audio was up to him.
> 
> "I haven't talked to the police about it. I thought it was up to the police, I'll talk to the police."
> 
> The CBC has reported (and is sticking with the story) that during the call he unleashed a string of f-bombs on the 911 operators that answered and called them bitches.
> 
> Ford has admitted to using the f-word while speaking to 911 operators during the incident but says it was out of frustration and denies calling anyone a bitch.
> 
> Do you think the audio of the tape should be released?


----------



## kps

We know there's no love between the two, but Police chief Blair confirms Rob Fords account of the 9-1-1 call.



> “The content of those conversations has been misrepresented by what are claimed to be ‘several anonymous sources,’ presumably from within the TPS, in which case I have to set the record straight,” Blair stated. “I have listened to the three emergency calls. The mayor did not use the word ‘bitches,’ attributed to him by those ‘several anonymous sources.’ The mayor did not describe himself as the original account claimed.”
> 
> Ford said Thursday he didn’t use the word “bitch” or proclaim “I’m Mayor Rob f---ing Ford” to Toronto 911 dispatchers after This Hour Has 22 Minutes ambushed him in his driveway.


Blair backs Ford's account of 911 calls | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

No comment from the CBC? LOL, no surprise there.


----------



## SINC

Once again the lefties at CBC TV news are fabricating a news story, just like they did back in 1978 when I denounced and exposed them in a column at the time. They are liars and should be cut off from all taxpayer funding. :clap:

Looks good on the bums!


----------



## Lawrence

That's no good, I already have the sign printed up for my front lawn,
Even a FN Mayor Ford Halloween costume with a bitch'n 9-1-1 phone

Now what am I going to do with them.


----------



## kps

Lawrence said:


> That's no good, I already have the sign printed up for my front lawn,
> Even a FN Mayor Ford Halloween costume with a bitch'n 9-1-1 phone
> 
> Now what am I going to do with them.


Change them to "Vote for Me! I'm Mayor Rob F***ing Ford, You Bitches!"


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Once again the lefties at CBC TV news are fabricating a news story, just like they did back in 1978 when I denounced and exposed them in a column at the time. They are liars and should be cut off from all taxpayer funding. :clap:
> 
> Looks good on the bums!


So while our idiot of a lying disgrace to the city mayor lies his face off about all of it, then makes it worse and embarrasses himself (and toronto) with his I'm mayor rob effin FORD!! nonsense on 911, you're concerned that the CBC, -may- have gotten one of the swear words incorrect?

And how about the half billion in tax money to the other media conglomerate that runs the liars at sunTV?

crickets...


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> So while our idiot of a lying disgrace to the city mayor lies his face off about all of it, then makes it worse and embarrasses himself (and toronto) with his I'm mayor rob effin FORD!! nonsense on 911, you're concerned that the CBC, -may- have gotten one of the swear words incorrect?
> 
> And how about the half billion in tax money to the other media conglomerate that runs the liars at sunTV?
> 
> crickets...


Sigh, the TO police chief says it didn't happen that way and the CBC fabricated a portion of their story.

Get it now?


----------



## Sonal

Toronto News: Ford outsources business cards to his family?s firm - thestar.com


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> Toronto News: Ford outsources business cards to his family?s firm - thestar.com


If I recall, during the mayoral election it was ascertained that Deca Label was/is an authorized City of Toronto supplier for many years. So the only issue may be the extra cost for the Mayor and his staff?


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Sigh, the TO police chief says it didn't happen that way and the CBC fabricated a portion of their story.
> 
> Get it now?


oh I got it. But you'll have to excuse me when I chuckle at the indignation if the CEE BEE CEEE -may- have gotten one word wrong in a string of obscenities that never should have happened, and, after our mayor bald faced lied about the circumstances of the incident. He even tried to lie about the obscenity laden 911 call until someone probably told him he couldn't get away with that.

The indignation at the cbc, falls a wee bit flat here. :yawn:

I can guarantee this will be just one of many things that will haunt this clown.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> If I recall, during the mayoral election it was ascertained that Deca Label was/is an authorized City of Toronto supplier for many years. So the only issue may be the extra cost for the Mayor and his staff?





> Mayor Rob Ford has outsourced the printing of business cards for himself and his staff to his family’s printing company, *billing taxpayers up to four times as much per card as councillors who have them printed by the city.*


respect for taxpayers money as long as it gets funnelled back in his pockets.

Hey, he's mayor Rob effin FORD baby!!!


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> respect for taxpayers money as long as it gets funnelled back in his pockets.
> 
> Hey, he's mayor Rob effin FORD baby!!!


Ok, so the star reported on his and the lowest...what's in between and is there anyone higher? Guy may be a clown, but doesn't deserve lies and misinformation spread about him if they're exaggerated or down right falsehoods.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Ok, so the star reported on his and the lowest...what's in between and is there anyone higher? Guy may be a clown, but doesn't deserve lies and misinformation spread about him if they're exaggerated or down right falsehoods.


So if it's a conservative it's the lefties who are spreading lies, but goddam if it's a liberal well they're crooks?


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> So if it's a conservative it's the lefties who are spreading lies, but goddam if it's a liberal well they're crooks?


Did I say that? We're talking about Ford here, no one else.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The indignation at the cbc, falls a wee bit flat here. :yawn:


When a national news agency funded by tax dollars deliberately omits or adds information to further their own leftist agenda, or to put people they dislike in a worse light than they really are, there should be real concern from citizens. This has been a common practice by the CBC's TV news for decades.


----------



## Max

Thankfully, SUN TV is in place, ready to deliberately omit or add information to further their own right-wing agenda, or to put people they dislike in a worse light than they really are - and as such should, really, be of no real concern to citizens.


----------



## SINC

Max said:


> Thankfully, SUN TV is in place, ready to deliberately omit or add information to further their own right-wing agenda, or to put people they dislike in a worse light than they really are - and as such should, really, be of no real concern to citizens.


That of course is fine in an independent one-town market as their station is unavailable across the country. Last time I checked, they were also not funded by Canadian taxpayers.


----------



## BigDL

By all means let's deflect to the supposed left when the right's way is called out. Surprise tactic.

Reporting what sources provide is always manufacturing news then is it?


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Ok, so the star reported on his and the lowest...what's in between and is there anyone higher? Guy may be a clown, but doesn't deserve lies and misinformation spread about him if they're exaggerated or down right falsehoods.


The Star article says that there is nothing in the rules stopping a councilor from purchasing cards from a firm they have an interest in, and since the cards themselves are fancier (gold lettering, slightly raised print) the extra cost is not so surprising. 

And really, we're not talking big money here. Ford had 20,000 cards printed for a little over $1,500. 

Still... bad optics on this one.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> When a national news agency funded by tax dollars deliberately omits or adds information to further their own leftist agenda, or to put people they dislike in a worse light than they really are, there should be real concern from citizens. This has been a common practice by the CBC's TV news for decades.


Sinc, this is stale. Really. I know you were in the news business, so this really shouldn't come as any surprise toy you. As I've mentioned several times, I have seen another network who has been stuffed with half a billion and is quite well funded from our tax dollars pull some of the most unbelievably classless nonsense almost daily (while moaning about the other network getting tax dollars...), yet I don't hear many cries of indignation there. It seems if they support your politic, well it's just fine.

The real story here to me is Ford's blatant lying, not once, nor just one detail as the CBC has allegedly done (we'll see when the tape comes out...) but on many details.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> The Star article says that there is nothing in the rules stopping a councilor from purchasing cards from a firm they have an interest in, and since the cards themselves are fancier (gold lettering, slightly raised print) the extra cost is not so surprising.
> 
> And really, we're not talking big money here. Ford had 20,000 cards printed for a little over $1,500.
> 
> Still... bad optics on this one.


bad optics indeed. This is the champion of the gravy train reduction, who so far has reduced office budgets with the fanfare of the biggest peacokke (sp...) in the land! And then he springs for real fancy business cards?


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Sinc, this is stale. Really. I know you were in the news business, so this really shouldn't come as any surprise toy you. As I've mentioned several times, I have seen another network who has been stuffed with half a billion and is quite well funded from our tax dollars pull some of the most unbelievably classless nonsense almost daily (while moaning about the other network getting tax dollars...), yet I don't hear many cries of indignation there. It seems if they support your politic, well it's just fine.
> 
> The real story here to me is Ford's blatant lying, not once, nor just one detail as the CBC has allegedly done (we'll see when the tape comes out...) but on many details.


Release the tape!

(unedited of course )


----------



## groovetube

that would simplify things, and all ford has to do is say yes...


----------



## Macfury

The disappointment here is palpable. You see, SINC, the REAL story is not the one that the usual suspects have salivated over for the past two days.


----------



## groovetube

I would think for strong ford supporters it would be!

this blogger wrote a good piece on this. Apparently there are reports that 911 operators have files grievances for the abuse from the mayor.

SchadenFord - Dawg's Blawg (Blog)


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The disappointment here is palpable. You see, SINC, the REAL story is not the one that the usual suspects have salivated over for the past two days.


No disappointment at all.

This is simply one more slice in the giant buffoon pie that is Rob Ford.


----------



## groovetube

oh and there will be puh-leeeenty more !


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> We know there's no love between the two, but Police chief Blair confirms Rob Fords account of the 9-1-1 call.
> 
> 
> 
> Blair backs Ford's account of 911 calls | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun
> 
> No comment from the CBC? LOL, no surprise there.


where does it say the CBC said "no comment"?

if they got it all wrong then why doesn't Ford release the tape?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> where does it say the CBC said "no comment"?
> 
> if they got it all wrong then why doesn't Ford release the tape?


Because he's not playing to the bonehead audience salivating over this?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Because he's not playing to the bonehead audience salivating over this?


so then the CBC didn't get it all wrong did they?

maybe he did or didn't say the word bitch or bitches, but i'm certain he comes off as an ass.

no matter what spin the right wing tries to put on this that will never change.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> bonehead


Funny, I was just about to apply this to anyone foolish/ naive enough to still support Ford. 

The well of indoctrination is deep.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> Because he's not playing to the bonehead audience salivating over this?


When a liar is caught out on his or her "facts" the question for any reasonable person should be; did he or she ever start telling the truth. Where is the corroboration for Mayor Ford's contentions for the tone of language spoken on the 9-1-1 call. A recorded conversation exists. This fact is agreed upon.

So the detractors of Mayor Ford's story are what then?

The supporters of Mayor Ford's story are what then?


----------



## groovetube

hmm. Let's recap.

Ford lied about it being dark. He lied about his daughter being out there. He lied about it being assault. He then lied he didn't use profanities only to quickly change his story.

Yet the cbc, -may- have gotten one of the profanities (among the ones that were confirmed) wrong, and the right screams "bonehead"?

yup. :baby::baby::baby:


----------



## Sonal

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...-here-let-the-networks-decide/article2218017/


----------



## Macfury

The bonheads are the ones who think this is important news.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> Ford lied about it being dark.


He must have put his clocks back early this year


----------



## groovetube

ha ha. 

Now everybody, if you think it's news that the mayor disgraced himself with his reaction, yer a bonehead. 

apparently.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> ha ha.
> 
> Now everybody, if you think it's news that the mayor disgraced himself with his reaction, yer a bonehead.
> 
> apparently.


GT, you may have heard 'bonehead' but that was actually the moo of the Fordus blindus supportus, commonly known as the Gulli-Bull.

You can usually find it grazing in the 905 region, sniffing the cheap ink from The Toronto Sun. Although some have been spotted downtown.


----------



## mrjimmy

I guess any press is good press...

Toronto News: Olbermann dubs Ford ?worst person in the world? - thestar.com


----------



## Macfury

What is Olbermann? A leftist leaflet?


----------



## Lawrence

mrjimmy said:


> I guess any press is good press...
> 
> Toronto News: Olbermann dubs Ford ?worst person in the world? - thestar.com





> Olbermann read all but the first remark on-air as he railed against Ford and named him the worst person in the world, edging out Glenn Beck.
> 
> “Toronto’s Rob effing Ford The mayor of his effing city. Today’s effing worst person in the effing world,” said Olbermann in conclusion.



That's amazing, Feel kinda sorry for the guy, Not an easy label to live with,
If only he'd been less like Mike Harris and more like himself...Oh wait...He is himself.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> That's amazing, Feel kinda sorry for the guy, Not an easy label to live with,
> If only he'd been less like Mike Harris and more like himself...Oh wait...He is himself.


Seriously, do you think Ford is losing sleep over this?


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Seriously, do you think Ford is losing sleep over this?


The guys in Mexico, Probably drinking gut loads right now.


----------



## Lichen Software

I cannot edit the bottom of this on y iPad, so it get a little disjointed. sorry

I am watching this thread and it is like a left wing, area code 416, feeding frenzy.

This fellow is the mayor of a large city

1.) That has a budget that not so long ago would have been equal to that of the province of Ontario as a whole and

2.) not so long before that would have had a budget similar to that of the country of Canada as a whole

3.) that does not get the protection afforded heads of state and heads of provinces

4.) that will have to make some very unpopular decisions as quite frankly, Toronto has been sucking the rest of the province dry with it's expenditures, and it cannot go on

5.) who by the way has already had death threats.

Yes, he called 911. Yes he was anxious. He has a security circus going on outside his home. He may or may not have been pleasant about it.

Get over it. CBC is wrong. They had absolutely no business being there. They messed up. Ford is right. In the same position, I personally would have gone ballistic.

nd from another thread, typing this on an iPad sucks.



I am sure he is a big boy and bought into this. His wife and kid. The other hand did not.

CBC came to his house. Not a public place. They involved his whole family without his consent. hey created a circus which would be a security nightmare.... And he called 911... And was anxious and upset about it.


----------



## Lawrence

Lichen Software said:


> Yes, he called 911. Yes he was anxious. He has a security circus going on outside his home. He may or may not have been pleasant about it.


He should have called 905, He may have had a quicker response.


----------



## groovetube

Sucking the rest of the province dry?

What's in the glass and how many were consumed?

I think our area code here is 416, and none of us are that far into the bag as to think our budget approaches the country's...

This mayor is a proven moron and, a liar. We don't need a leftie, or a rightie, we need someone with a brain, and the ability to lead a city without playing tommy boy in the sandbox screaming he's king of the castle.

Though I suppose, some may be fine with that.


----------



## Lawrence

Let's have some fun with Fords way of thinking



> Mayor Rob Ford contracted out the printing of his business cards and those of his staff to his family company. Taxpayers spent 7 cents for each of the first 15,000 cards and 6.2 cents each for another 5,600. Last December, Councillor Josh Matlow''s office paid 1.6 cents for each of his business cards produced in-house by the city's printing office.


Source: Star dot com article


----------



## mrjimmy

Lawrence said:


> He should have called 905, He may have had a quicker response.


Good one!


----------



## BigDL

Lichen Software said:


> I cannot edit the bottom of this on y iPad, so it get a little disjointed. sorry
> 
> I am watching this thread and it is like a left wing, area code 416, feeding frenzy.
> 
> This fellow is the mayor of a large city
> 
> 1.) That has a budget that not so long ago would have been equal to that of the province of Ontario as a whole and
> 
> 2.) not so long before that would have had a budget similar to that of the country of Canada as a whole
> 
> 3.) that does not get the protection afforded heads of state and heads of provinces
> 
> 4.) that will have to make some very unpopular decisions as quite frankly, Toronto has been sucking the rest of the province dry with it's expenditures, and it cannot go on
> 
> 5.) who by the way has already had death threats.
> 
> Yes, he called 911. Yes he was anxious. He has a security circus going on outside his home. He may or may not have been pleasant about it.
> 
> Get over it. CBC is wrong. They had absolutely no business being there. They messed up. Ford is right. In the same position, I personally would have gone ballistic.
> 
> nd from another thread, typing this on an iPad sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure he is a big boy and bought into this. His wife and kid. The other hand did not.
> 
> CBC came to his house. Not a public place. They involved his whole family without his consent. hey created a circus which would be a security nightmare.... And he called 911... And was anxious and upset about it.


The Mayor blatantly lied when no threat existed, well except the threat of the press accurately reporting the Mayor's lies.

If, l repeat, *IF* the Mayor felt threatened by Mary Walsh and crew from Halifax Film, (the company responsible for the production of 22 minutes) not CBC, in his driveway. What imminent threat lingered inside the safety of the Ford home to cause the Mayor to call 9-1-1 repeatedly and act so reprehensibly?

So another one feels right justified to attack the reporter not the politician acting badly. People can feel justified in their support for the Mayor.

An actor made no threat well except for the possibility of mockery and the Mayor managed to ridicule himself most admirably


----------



## SINC

Mary Walsh and her CBC crew had no right to swoop down upon him before 8:00 a.m on his own property and it's time their childish brand of humour is squashed like bugs and the pests that they are. At city hall is one thing. At his home is a violation of his privacy. Not to mention a horrid waste of taxpayers dollars.


----------



## Lawrence

SINC said:


> Mary Walsh and her CBC crew had no right to swoop down upon him before 8:00 a.m on his own property and it's time their childish brand of humour is squashed like bugs and the pests that they are. At city hall is one thing. At his home is a violation of his privacy. Not to mention a horrid waste of taxpayers dollars.


I think they had a measuring tape and measured from the centre of the road to his house,
In fact, I think it's city property at the bottom of our front porch steps to the centre of the road.



I think she may well have been on city property,
Maybe the Mayor should get a wall built with barbed wire and a gatehouse.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> What is Olbermann? A leftist leaflet?


Olbermann in action


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Mary Walsh and her CBC crew had no right to swoop down upon him before 8:00 a.m on his own property and it's time their childish brand of humour is squashed like bugs and the pests that they are. At city hall is one thing. At his home is a violation of his privacy. Not to mention a horrid waste of taxpayers dollars.


It's now gone beyond the issue of whether they should have gone on his driveway or not, Ford himself has turned this into a circus with his lying and stupidity.

Btw if you think the CBC is fading into obscurity you might do well to check how they stack up to other news channels.

It may be a bit of a shock...
:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> I think they had a measuring tape and measured from the centre of the road to his house,
> In fact, I think it's city property at the bottom of our front porch steps to the centre of the road.
> 
> 
> 
> I think she may well have been on city property,
> Maybe the Mayor should get a wall built with barbed wire and a gatehouse.


It is city property right to my front steps as well. Pretty much common to most houses I know here.


----------



## Lawrence

Rob Ford–versus–22 Minutes fracas is now officially a tempest in a gravy boat


----------



## Lichen Software

Rob Ford runs a city with a budget of $9B. He and his supporters are making changes. That in and of itself makes him a target. And he has had death threats. He does not have the security in place that both provincial and federal leaders have. You do not show up at 24 Sussex without an invite. CBC showing up at his door is a circus and hence a security and privacy nightmare for him and his family. There are both safety issues and issues of targeting his family, none of whom is the mayor.

As for lying, the Chief of police has issued a statement that he has personally reviewed the tape and cannot substantiate the CBC claims.

I have no problem with 22 Minutes tackling Ford, but do it where privacy and security are not a concern.


----------



## groovetube

apparently you are missing more than half of the story.

1.If you live in Toronto for as long as Ford has and don't know what the CBC is nor who Mary Walsh is, you're an idiot. Or, a liar.

2. Ford LIED about it being dark, and that his kid was there.

3. Ford then LIED that he used profanities in the 911 call, only the recant later.

4. If you don't think there's a favor going on on the police services then you were born yesterday.

At one point, there was a discussion about whether it was a little over the line what the CBC did. It may have been. But his incredibly stupid pants peeing reaction along with his several blad faced lies has turned this into a circus. That's his fault, no one else's.

AS for the budget, well, he hasn't done very well has he...


----------



## Lichen Software

groovetube said:


> apparently you are missing more than half of the story.
> 
> 1.If you live in Toronto for as long as Ford has and don't know what the CBC is nor who Mary Walsh is, you're an idiot. Or, a liar.


Mary Walsh is not the issue. If I am stalking Rob Ford, to injure or kill him, and I want to get away with it, I want to strike during a moment of confusion in a place where he has no protection. Just the fact that they showed up at his home presents a security risk to him and his family.



groovetube said:


> 2. Ford LIED about it being dark, and that his kid was there.
> 
> 3. Ford then LIED that he used profanities in the 911 call, only the recant later.


I can't comment on those things. I do not know.



groovetube said:


> 4. If you don't think there's a favor going on on the police services then you were born yesterday.


Classy... Assume the chief of police is corrupt and will lie in an open statement to the media, so he is also stupid.



groovetube said:


> At one point, there was a discussion about whether it was a little over the line what the CBC did. It may have been. But his incredibly stupid pants peeing reaction along with his several blad faced lies has turned this into a circus. That's his fault, no one else's.
> 
> AS for the budget, well, he hasn't done very well has he...


His reaction is totally appropriate. He has no secret service staff but is having a security incident. Again, Mary Walsh is not the direct threat, she and her crew are just presenting opportunity to unknown third parties. I like Mary Walsh. The set up this time was just dumb and it blew up in all directions.

As for the budget, that is the total budget for the City of Toronto. It is just a figure. The purpose was to give an indication of the magnitude of responsibility of the position, and perhaps the potential magnitude of his enemies, that's all. He is not the mayor of FlatRockDribble, ON.


----------



## Ottawaman

The police chief has no credibility after lying during the G 20. Release all the tapes if there's nothing to hide Mr Ford.


----------



## groovetube

Lichen Software said:


> Mary Walsh is not the issue. If I am stalking Rob Ford, to injure or kill him, and I want to get away with it, I want to strike during a moment of confusion in a place where he has no protection. Just the fact that they showed up at his home presents a security risk to him and his family.


oh please. It was on his driveway and the mic said "22 minutes". It was also reported that Ford's office was contacted for an appearance. The whingers everywhere are howling and screaming about possible disaster. It was Mary Walsh doing what she has done for a long time with public figures. 



Lichen Software said:


> I can't comment on those things. I do not know.


\no need, the facts are facts and there is the video to prove it. Ford LIED. Multiple times.



Lichen Software said:


> Classy... Assume the chief of police is corrupt and will lie in an open statement to the media, so he is also stupid.


All Ford has to do is release the tape. It ends all speculation. Blair also said there were no complaints from the dispatchers. This is now coming out as possibly untrue.



Lichen Software said:


> His reaction is totally appropriate. He has no secret service staff but is having a security incident. Again, Mary Walsh is not the direct threat, she and her crew are just presenting opportunity to unknown third parties. I like Mary Walsh. The set up this time was just dumb and it blew up in all directions.


Really? Appropriate? It seems he was the ONLY one to ever react this way to this show. Calling 911 because the CBC was on your driveway? This is appropriate? Nonsense. It was an over-reaction, and he is getting roasted for it. If you watch the video, you'll see him smiling a little bit. This, doesn't seem like an appropriate reaction whatsoever. I suspect, since he already was aware of the attempts to interview him, the call to set one up, the attempt at city hall which missed him, but instead got his brother, he was well aware of this possibility. He likely already thought about this beforehand and the 911 call was an option. Unfortunately, being a doofus he botched the whole thing by lying about it being dark and his kid being there and thought he could get away with making the cbc look bad. All it accomplished, was making him look like a liar, and simply preached to the chior about the evil cbc....


Lichen Software said:


> As for the budget, that is the total budget for the City of Toronto. It is just a figure. The purpose was to give an indication of the magnitude of responsibility of the position, and perhaps the potential magnitude of his enemies, that's all. He is not the mayor of FlatRockDribble, ON.


If he's not up to the uh, er, "magnitude of the job", then perhaps he should step aside and let some who is. This is not an excuse to lie multiple times about this incident. He would have had far more credibility if he didn't act like a screaming lying lunatic because the cbc showed up on his driveway. Which seems to be something some people are missing.

Somehow, the 'magnitude of the job' is an excuse for his unacceptable behaviour. As a tax payer in this city, I expect far more of my mayor, regardless of -what- you feel about the cbc and it's actions. Period.


----------



## mrjimmy

Ottawaman said:


> The police chief has no credibility after lying during the G 20. Release all the tapes if there's nothing to hide Mr Ford.


Exactly.

If history has taught us anything, it's not to blindly follow 'authority'.


----------



## groovetube

Ottawaman said:


> The police chief has no credibility after lying during the G 20. Release all the tapes if there's nothing to hide Mr Ford.


It's funny how the ones who railed against 'leftie' Blair are suddenly all down with him.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Somehow, the 'magnitude of the job' is an excuse for his unacceptable behaviour. As a tax payer in this city, I expect far more of my mayor, regardless of -what- you feel about the cbc and it's actions. Period.


GT, I'm thankful for Ford's inability to handle situations with deft, grace and smarts. It just digs him deeper and deeper.

Keep up the good work I say!


----------



## groovetube

Oh me too. I said in the beginning of his mayor term we'd be in for some real entertainment. I think we've merely seen the opening act.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> oh please. It was on his driveway and the mic said "22 minutes". It was also reported that Ford's office was contacted for an appearance. The whingers everywhere are howling and screaming about possible disaster. It was Mary Walsh doing what she has done for a long time with public figures.
> 
> \no need, the facts are facts and there is the video to prove it. Ford LIED. Multiple times.
> 
> 
> All Ford has to do is release the tape. It ends all speculation. Blair also said there were no complaints from the dispatchers. This is now coming out as possibly untrue.
> 
> 
> Really? Appropriate? It seems he was the ONLY one to ever react this way to this show. Calling 911 because the CBC was on your driveway? This is appropriate? Nonsense. It was an over-reaction, and he is getting roasted for it. If you watch the video, you'll see him smiling a little bit. This, doesn't seem like an appropriate reaction whatsoever. I suspect, since he already was aware of the attempts to interview him, the call to set one up, the attempt at city hall which missed him, but instead got his brother, he was well aware of this possibility. He likely already thought about this beforehand and the 911 call was an option. Unfortunately, being a doofus he botched the whole thing by lying about it being dark and his kid being there and thought he could get away with making the cbc look bad. All it accomplished, was making him look like a liar, and simply preached to the chior about the evil cbc....
> 
> If he's not up to the uh, er, "magnitude of the job", then perhaps he should step aside and let some who is. This is not an excuse to lie multiple times about this incident. He would have had far more credibility if he didn't act like a screaming lying lunatic because the cbc showed up on his driveway. Which seems to be something some people are missing.
> 
> Somehow, the 'magnitude of the job' is an excuse for his unacceptable behaviour. As a tax payer in this city, I expect far more of my mayor, regardless of -what- you feel about the cbc and it's actions. Period.


+1...

...but sadly GT those who like him like him a lot. They will excuse the facts and moral lapses on the part of *their MAYOR* If they're on the right sadly they back'em. 

As you point out if handling this situation with wisdom, wit and grace would the conversation still continue.


----------



## Lawrence

.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Olbermann in action


I remember that old man. He was fired from a major network a while back. Guess anyone can find a job in the vast cable universe these days.


----------



## Lawrence

.


----------



## mrjimmy

The top cartoon is a terrible likeness of Ford.

Although as Cartman... pure genius!


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I remember that old man. He was fired from a major network a while back. Guess anyone can find a job in the vast cable universe these days.


yeah. Even the likes of Michael Coren.


----------



## CubaMark

*Toronto Public Works: Living On Sidewalks, Streets To Be Banned*





> Toronto's public works committee has passed a motion to ban people from lodging or living on city sidewalks and streets.
> 
> If approved by council, it would essentially make it illegal for homeless people to reside in a public space.


(Huffington Post Canada)


----------



## Max

The Toronto cops are going to love that detail. Not.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> The Toronto cops are going to love that detail. Not.


Actually, the police _will _like it. They have to deal with moving vagrants constantly from one location to another as a public nuisance, so this actually clarifies the legal situation.


----------



## groovetube

oh yes I'm quite certain cops wake up in the morning thinking yeah, I can't wait to go and scrape homeless guys off city streets today!


----------



## Max

Exactly. I expect most cops feel they have better things to do.


----------



## John Clay

CubaMark said:


> *Toronto Public Works: Living On Sidewalks, Streets To Be Banned*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Huffington Post Canada)


If that goes through, it'll be the one good thing Ford has managed to do.

Now, if only he did the same thing about the morons setting up camp in the park...


----------



## groovetube

The "one good thing"?

Good grief. That sure speaks volumes doesn't it


----------



## Lawrence

Now if only they can get the sales of public housing banned,
Then people wouldn't be forced to sleep in the street.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> The "one good thing"?
> 
> Good grief. That sure speaks volumes doesn't it


Doesn't it?

Maybe when they round up these vagrants they can put them in labour camps and save on some of that public sector gravy. A win-win situation for The Readers Of The Sun™.


----------



## Lawrence

mrjimmy said:


> Doesn't it?
> 
> Maybe when they round up these vagrants they can put them in labour camps and save on some of that public sector gravy. A win-win situation for The Readers Of The Sun™.


Readers of the Sun?
I thought they just looked at the pictures.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> oh yes I'm quite certain cops wake up in the morning thinking yeah, I can't wait to go and scrape homeless guys off city streets today!


It's a good way to justify the City's inability to curb police spending. 

'See, we need them!' they'll oink.


----------



## Lawrence

Maybe that's why they have been sleeping in bank machine enclosures,
Besides it being too cold to sleep on the street, Bank machine enclosures are on private property.


----------



## Macfury

The officers I know appreciate the discretion in being allowed to to legally move the vagrants instead of convincing them to move along, move along, move along as business after business calls to complain.


----------



## Max

Still doesn't mean it's one of their top priority jobs, or that most officers will even remotely dig performing "vagrant duty." It's like they're being used as a last resort; the social system is broken so the cops are primed to sweep the problems off the street and out of sight. Classic band-aid solution.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Max said:


> Still doesn't mean it's one of their top priority jobs, or that most officers will even remotely dig performing "vagrant duty." It's like they're being used as a last resort; the social system is broken so the cops are primed to sweep the problems off the street and out of sight. Classic band-aid solution.


Maybe Ford will pull a Giuliani and round up the vagrants and dump them in Vaughn or Oshawa.


----------



## groovetube

Hell maybe even etobicoke


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Still doesn't mean it's one of their top priority jobs, or that most officers will even remotely dig performing "vagrant duty." It's like they're being used as a last resort; the social system is broken so the cops are primed to sweep the problems off the street and out of sight. Classic band-aid solution.


They are already doing "vagrant duty" and already get frequent vagrant calls from residents and businesses--but the calls occur over and over because they have no means to deal with the problem. With a law, they can move some of the problem vagrants with legal authority and cut the nuisance calls.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> They are already doing "vagrant duty" and already get frequent vagrant calls from residents and businesses--but the calls occur over and over because they have no means to deal with the problem. With a law, they can move some of the problem vagrants with legal authority and cut the nuisance calls.


Please elucidate all citizens of EhMacland, how "legal authority" eliminates vagrant problems within Canada.

Heaven forbid, EhMacland may one day have a "vagrant problem" to be dealt with and we should prepare well for that contingency.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Please elucidate all citizens of EhMacland, how "legal authority" eliminates vagrant problems within Canada.
> 
> Heaven forbid, EhMacland may one day have a "vagrant problem" to be dealt with and we should prepare well for that contingency.


It doesn't stop vagrants from being vagrants. Why would the law do that? It just gives the police the authority to move them away.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It doesn't stop vagrants from being vagrants. Why would the law do that? It just gives the police the authority to move them away.


That solves the vagrant problem how?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> That solves the vagrant problem how?


It solves the problem of vagrants bothering other people. You seem fixated on the vagrants themselves.


----------



## jimbotelecom

BigDL said:


> That solves the vagrant problem how?


C'mon now. This is part of a larger job creation initiative in the penal system. As new Fed prisons open up they'll need to fill the space. They can rent out rooms to the vagrants @165k per year. LOL!


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> It solves the problem of vagrants bothering other people


_Psssst. _When you're done prescribing imaginary solutions, I have a bridge to sell you.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> _Psssst. _When you're done prescribing imaginary solutions, I have a bridge to sell you.


It really galls you that moving them away actually solves the immediate problem doesn't it? Let's dither and moan instead because we haven't looked at it through the eyes of a social worker.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> They are already doing "vagrant duty" and already get frequent vagrant calls from residents and businesses--but the calls occur over and over because they have no means to deal with the problem. With a law, they can move some of the problem vagrants with legal authority and cut the nuisance calls.


is a libertarian really championing government laws to restrict free individuals from living their life how they want to?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> is a libertarian really championing government laws to restrict free individuals from living their life how they want to?


No. I support their right to live their lives as vagrants. I don't support anybody's efforts to block access to bus shelters or sidewalks.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> It really galls you that moving them away actually solves the immediate problem doesn't it? Let's dither and moan instead because we haven't looked at it through the eyes of a social worker.





Macfury;1143463The Canadian Political Thread said:


> He doesn't nail it at all. A big difference between Libertarianism and anarchy.





Macfury;1143580The Canadian Political Thread said:


> That's right. The Libertarian doesn't tell you how to live--he just asks you to live that way without bothering him about it. He might watch from the sidelines while people freely associate with other dependent types, as they all go down the drain at the same time. But he just respectfully declines to join you.
> 
> 
> 
> MacDoc that's the second time you've dragged out that chestnut (do you have a thing for pirates)? I enjoy living in a society of people who freely associate with each other. Next?





BigDL;1143533The Canadian Political Thread said:


> Especially if the Libertarian doesn't get to tell everyone how to live.


So apparently my thesis of the Libertarian getting to tell the vagrants and who ever else what to do is correct. 

Apparently an abridged motto of "my life is my own... so is every other life... as long as someone else does the dirty work for me."


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> No. I support their right to live their lives as vagrants. I don't support anybody's efforts to block access to bus shelters or sidewalks.


so you want some sort of *regulations* on being a vagrant? like having the government step in when sidewalks are being blocked and sending the offending person to jail?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> So apparently my thesis of the Libertarian getting to tell the vagrants and who ever else what to do is correct.
> 
> Apparently an abridged motto of "my life is my own... so is every other life... as long as someone else does the dirty work for me."



A Libertarian would call on the authorities to remove a person with a communicable disease from "the commons" just as they would ask to have a person removed who was interfering with someone's right to free passage. Simple now that it's explained, isn't it?

Again, the difference between Libertarianism and anarchy.


----------



## Sonal

It's very simple.... you can do pretty much whatever you like, just so long as you don't interfere in someone else's freedom to do whatever they like. If you interfere, then the solution is to do the minimum needed to stop the interference.

So you are free to be a vagrant, but if you are interfering with other people's lives by doing so, then apply the minimum response. So, if you interference is that you are getting in people's way on the sidewalk, the solution is to get you off the sidewalk. And that's it. You are still free to be a vagrant.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Sonal said:


> It's very simple.... you can do pretty much whatever you like, just so long as you don't interfere in someone else's freedom to do whatever they like. If you interfere, then the solution is to do the minimum needed to stop the interference.
> 
> So you are free to be a vagrant, but if you are interfering with other people's lives by doing so, then apply the minimum response. So, if you interference is that you are getting in people's way on the sidewalk, the solution is to get you off the sidewalk. And that's it. You are still free to be a vagrant.


Yeah and that goes for "fragrant vagrants" too.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> A Libertarian would call on the authorities to remove a person with a communicable disease from "the commons" just as they would ask to have a person removed who was interfering with someone's right to free passage. Simple now that it's explained, isn't it?
> 
> Again, the difference between Libertarianism and anarchy.


Hey anybody with a head cold for in truth we are talking rhinovirus here, your on the freedom lover's hit list. "A communicable disease from "the commons" don't you know. So long as somebody else does the dirty work. 

So where does the justified infringement on personal freedoms start, does the disease always have to be communicable? What about the anarchy of poverty, personal hygiene or homelessness how quickly can we infringe on personal freedom with a duly authorized third party to "move then along?"


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> So where does the justified infringement on personal freedoms start, does the disease always have to be communicable? What about the anarchy of poverty, personal hygiene or homelessness how quickly can we infringe on personal freedom with a duly authorized third party to "move then along?"


Not quickly at all. As Sonal says, the bare minimum required to stop the infringement of the freedom of others.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> It's very simple.... you can do pretty much whatever you like, just so long as you don't interfere in someone else's freedom to do whatever they like. If you interfere, then the solution is to do the minimum needed to stop the interference.
> 
> So you are free to be a vagrant, but if you are interfering with other people's lives by doing so, then apply the minimum response. So, if you interference is that you are getting in people's way on the sidewalk, the solution is to get you off the sidewalk. And that's it. You are still free to be a vagrant.





Macfury said:


> Not quickly at all. As Sonal says, the bare minimum required to stop the infringement of the freedom of others.


Wouldn't the minimum response to a blocked sidewalk would be to walk around the interference, not to insist that *your path always be clear(ed)* thereby you are free to continue on your way not waiting until some cleared your path? 

It is easier to walk around an obstruction than to walk over it or have it moved in my experience. 

Why is ok to pick my pockets to pay for the public officials to pass your desired authorizations and then to pay public agencies to clear a path for you when walking around is cheaper, faster, easier than clearing a path?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Wouldn't the minimum response to a blocked sidewalk would be to walk around the interference, not to insist that *your path always be clear(ed)* thereby you are free to continue on your way not waiting until some cleared your path?


In the aggregate, no.


----------



## Sonal

I can't quite go for Libertarianism because I think it's just too idealistic.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I can't quite go for Libertarianism because I think it's just too idealistic.


It is idealistic, but I find I'm happier to move things in that direction wherever possible. The system will always be a balance of ideas in constant flux.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> In the aggregate, no.


 No. To what? Which concept finds approval? Which concept find disapproval?


----------



## i-rui

The bare minimum of clearing a busy sidewalk surely isn't arresting someone. That's an egregious use of government power for something rather trivial. I think in reality panhandlers do not block the sidewalk and simply park themselves at the edge. Anyone sleeping on the sidewalk is doing it at night when it's not busy, and again it's not right in the middle of the sidewalk, but on the edge, out of the way of any pedestrian traffic.

What i do find amusing is the ability to justify *that* government regulation, but still being against things like environmental & financial regulations that are used as checks and balances against things that are much more of a public threat than a vagrant blocking a sidewalk.


Anyways, i think these laws have more to do with the municipality trying to find a way to shut down the occupy protests, which aren't about sidewalks at all.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> I think in reality panhandlers do not block the sidewalk and simply park themselves at the edge. Anyone sleeping on the sidewalk is doing it at night when it's not busy, and again it's not right in the middle of the sidewalk, but on the edge, out of the way of any pedestrian traffic.


Not in my experience. They beat on my car window, sleep in the path of pedestrians and stretch across all seats of a bus shelter. In the vast array of personalities, even among vagrants, a few sleep peacefully tucked away and remain undisturbed.


----------



## Lawrence

In the immortal words of Bob Dylan, "It's all over now Baby Blue"

Love sick Blues

You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last.
But whatever you wish to keep, you better grab it fast.
Yonder stands your orphan with his gun,
Crying like a fire in the sun.
Look out the saints are comin' through
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.

The highway is for gamblers, better use your sense.
Take what you have gathered from coincidence.
The empty-handed painter from your streets
Is drawing crazy patterns on your sheets.
This sky, too, is folding under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.

All your seasick sailors, they are rowing home.
All your reindeer armies, are all going home.
The lover who just walked out your door
Has taken all his blankets from the floor.
The carpet, too, is moving under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.

Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you.
Forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you.
*The vagabond who's rapping at your door
Is standing in the clothes that you once wore.*
Strike another match, go start anew
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.


----------



## Lawrence

All I can see is that, By taking away all hope from these people,
It will just make them more agitated and they'll seek to do repercussions.

Why stir up a hornets nest, The homeless are a result of a sick society.

Are you sure you want to fill the prisons with homeless people?

What's wrong with finding a solution,
Cutting and selling low cost housing is not the answer.


----------



## Sonal

I don't think this new law really does anything useful.


----------



## Lawrence

.




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I don't think this new law really does anything useful.


agreed, but it sure gets the "boneheads" excited.


----------



## BigDL

Macfury said:


> In the aggregate, no.


Am I to conclude that Macfury is in opposition to sidewalks formed of concrete? 

Possibly it is Concrete (as I've been to downtown Toronto and the sidewalks are made of concrete) sidewalks were the only substance made of an aggregate in the discussion. 

Whereas I understand from other MacFury's post he favours the Tar Sands and I haven't seen any sidewalks formed of asphalt, in Toronto Proper, and asphalt is an aggregate that is sometimes used in sidewalk construction.

Therefore I must conclude in the aggregate concrete, he can not abide by, when used in sidewalk construction.

Makes as much sense to me as any of the rest of his propositions.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Am I to conclude that Macfury is in opposition to sidewalks formed of concrete?
> 
> Possibly it is Concrete (as I've been to downtown Toronto and the sidewalks are made of concrete) sidewalks were the only substance made of an aggregate in the discussion.
> 
> Whereas I understand from other MacFury's post he favours the Tar Sands and I haven't seen any sidewalks formed of asphalt, in Toronto Proper, and asphalt is an aggregate that is sometimes used in sidewalk construction.
> 
> Therefore I must conclude in the aggregate concrete, he can not abide by, when used in sidewalk construction.
> 
> Makes as much sense to me as any of the rest of his propositions.


Rubbersidewalks, Inc.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Rubbersidewalks, Inc.


Yes, But are they snowplow proof?


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> It really galls you that moving them away actually solves the immediate problem doesn't it? Let's dither and moan instead because we haven't looked at it through the eyes of a social worker.


It really galls you that a reasonable man can simply disagree with you on any given point, doesn't it? Let's deflect and use straw men instead because we haven't looked at it through the sterling eyes of a libertarian.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> It really galls you that a reasonable man can simply disagree with you on any given point, doesn't it? Let's deflect and use straw men instead because we haven't looked at it through the sterling eyes of a libertarian.


No, it doesn't.


----------



## groovetube

ah the wave of the atom smasher's hand.


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> No, it doesn't.


Sure. And like I said, there's this bridge...


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Sure. And like I said, there's this bridge...


I need a bridge. Please PM details.


----------



## Max

Exactly! You do indeed need a bridge. A very big bridge. Oh, it's going to have to be very, very special, that bridge. There's going to be so much expected of it.

PMs are for chumps. I'll have my people contact your people. At the appropriate time, of course.

_______________________________

I'm with Sonal on this new measure to sweep the homeless off the streets. It's not going to do much good.

It's strictly for optics. Ford has this obsession about the surface of things. Get rid of the graffiti and the city will somehow be magically better. In the same vein, let's have the cops haul away those dirty, miserable rubbies - we'll sort out the details later! - and the streets will be safer, the city shinier, happier.


----------



## Lawrence

Toss a shoe at you know who

Great new online game


----------



## mrjimmy

Lawrence said:


> Toss a shoe at you know who
> 
> Great new online game


Fun!


----------



## groovetube

lapdog georgy


----------



## eMacMan

Am I the only one to notice that TOs mayor shares a name with the rotten coward who shot the unarmed Jesse James in the back?????


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> Am I the only one to notice that TOs mayor shares a name with the rotten coward who shot the unarmed Jesse James in the back?????


Or a great director of Westerns, the man who transformed the automobile industry, a President of the United States, and the man who played Han Solo--who, in edited film versions of _Star Wars_, did not fire first.


----------



## groovetube

That's *Gerald* Ford, not *Robert* Ford. And er, *Henry*... Ford.

Holy "I will defend Rob Ford with my dying breath!" batman.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Or a great director of Westerns, the man who transformed the automobile industry, a President of the United States, and the man who played Han Solo--who, in edited film versions of _Star Wars_, did not fire first.


I see a John and a Gerald and a Henry in that group but no Robert Fords.


----------



## Lawrence

What I'd like to know is, Will the Mayor give himself a raise after all the cutting is over.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> What I'd like to know is, Will the Mayor give himself a raise after all the cutting is over.


If he cuts, he deserves a raise. Hasn't done enough cutting to deserve one yet.


----------



## groovetube

no one deserves any raise, there's gravy afloat, and by golly we gotta find it we do! Giving unnecessary raises is like poking people in the eye.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> no one deserves any raise, there's gravy afloat, and by golly we gotta find it we do! Giving unnecessary raises is like poking people in the eye.


Would Ford be stupid enough to give him or his cronies raises? I only hope! The S#!+ storm would be epic.


----------



## Lawrence

I was watching the Remembrance day service on CP24,
Mayor Ford came on and the cable blacked out shortly into his speech.

That was strange, Premonition? Could be.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> I was watching the Remembrance day service on CP24,
> Mayor Ford came on and the cable blacked out shortly into his speech.
> 
> That was strange, Premonition? Could be.


Yep. It's a preview of the lock-out that will start next January.


----------



## Sonal

I have a hunch that Mayor Ford is going to win back a lot of popularity during union negotiations.


----------



## Lawrence

Rob Ford Voodoo dolls


----------



## Lawrence

Operation: Sunset
Is now in effect.

:clap:


----------



## Lichen Software

Lawrence said:


> Operation: Sunset
> Is now in effect.
> 
> :clap:


It is absolutely amazing to watch this. You have a city with a 700+ million dollar deficit. You have to cut. Yes - that means services, jobs and perks. Yes - the guy who actually does it will not be popular, especially with unions. 

Everybody else in municipal government has been saying "Say it isn't so" while they squander the wealth of the country's largest city. The other media outlets have also been saying "Say it isn't so".

It's so. Get on with it. The longer you leave it, the worse it gets.

Don't pillory the newspaper that is actually supporting the elected mayor, elected by the majority of the people in the city, elected to get a handle on your mess, so that you can pay your bills.

It reminds me of the Republicans in the States, past caring about anything else except the fact that the are no longer in power and can no longer do as they please without end, taking the strategy of seek and destroy at all costs.

There is work to be done in your fair city. Sit back and watch someone actually do the job.

Nope. Not going to be pretty. It would have been prettier if someone had started five to ten years ago - but they wouldn't. It interrupted Latte Time. 

It will be a lot uglier if you wait five to ten years from now.


----------



## groovetube

perhaps having been in city council and knowing full well what the budget situation was, he shouldn't have lied to Torontonians by saying he won't cut services and will reduce our taxes by simply finding "gravy".

Little detail Ford supporters tend to conveniently forget.


----------



## Sonal

There is a lot of debate as to whether or not there actually is a 700+ million dollar deficit--Ford's method of calculating this has been questioned by many.
The incredible shrinking budget gap « Ford For Toronto

Moreover, this isn't a unique 'budget crisis', and it has been solved year after year since amalgamation without massive service cuts.
The Grid TO | From $350 million surplus to $774 million deficit in one Ford year?


----------



## Sonal

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...racy-program-in-budget-crunch/article2244564/

There's talk of cutting the adult literacy program. I've been a volunteer in this program for the past 5 years. This is not an ESL program (though some learners are ESL) but adult literacy--adults who are fluent English speakers, but who cannot read or write (in any language) sufficiently to cope in today's working world. That is a surprisingly high number of people. (About 40% of Canadians.)

Even cutting the hours reduces the program, since if the library is not open, then the program cannot run. (Proposed cuts will affect my student.) And the program already runs in very limited hours and locations, because that's all the funding there is. Most of the hands-on work is through volunteers. The Toronto Public Library tends to handle the learners at the lowest levels of literacy... there's not a lot else out there for them.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...racy-program-in-budget-crunch/article2244564/
> 
> There's talk of cutting the adult literacy program. I've been a volunteer in this program for the past 5 years. This is not an ESL program (though some learners are ESL) but adult literacy--adults who are fluent English speakers, but who cannot read or write (in any language) sufficiently to cope in today's working world. That is a surprisingly high number of people. (About 40% of Canadians.)
> 
> Even cutting the hours reduces the program, since if the library is not open, then the program cannot run. (Proposed cuts will affect my student.) And the program already runs in very limited hours and locations, because that's all the funding there is. Most of the hands-on work is through volunteers. The Toronto Public Library tends to handle the learners at the lowest levels of literacy... there's not a lot else out there for them.


Truly sad news if true, Sonal.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> Truly sad news if true, Sonal.


At this point in time, it's just a proposal.

The Library Board was tasked with reducing their budget by 10%. They've already reduce some by layoffs. The Chief Librarian then suggested the rest could be made up by reducing hours, which the Board was not in favour of. One Board member suggested cutting more staff, but this was also not supported. So then they are left with programs like Adult Literacy.

Or, they can go back to Ford and say, this is the best we can do, and see what happens....


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> At this point in time, it's just a proposal.
> 
> The Library Board was tasked with reducing their budget by 10%. They've already reduce some by layoffs. The Chief Librarian then suggested the rest could be made up by reducing hours, which the Board was not in favour of. One Board member suggested cutting more staff, but this was also not supported. So then they are left with programs like Adult Literacy.
> 
> Or, they can go back to Ford and say, this is the best we can do, and see what happens....


Well, for the sake of all of those adult learners, let's hope for the best. I volunteer with new Canadians learning English, but this program is supported by the federal and provincial government.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> Well, for the sake of all of those adult learners, let's hope for the best. I volunteer with new Canadians learning English, but this program is supported by the federal and provincial government.


The Adult Literacy program at the Toronto Public Library does receive provincial funding, but evidently not enough. (This particular program is for fluent speakers of English.)


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> The Adult Literacy program at the Toronto Public Library does receive provincial funding, but evidently not enough. (This particular program is for fluent speakers of English.)


So, this is not a formal ABE Level I program ........ but rather, a program to help an adult learner with literacy?


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> So, this is not a formal ABE Level I program ........ but rather, a program to help an adult learner with literacy?


I couldn't say exactly, but I think so.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> I couldn't say exactly, but I think so.


Well, any cuts to literacy programs, be they for pre-schoolers, school age students or adults, is a step in the wrong direction, in my opinion.


----------



## i-rui

apparently literacy is gravy.


----------



## groovetube

no need for no books nor figures.

Who the hell is Margaret Atwood anyway?


----------



## SINC

If it's an across the board rollback via cuts, literacy like any other program should be expected take the hit. If it's selective and other programs are not being cut, that is quite another story.


----------



## Sonal

It's kind of neither. The Mayor told every department to cut 10%, whether or not they can actually find 10% to cut. A few departments--most notably the police--have been able to tell the Mayor that they just aren't going to do it, and got away with it.

Torontonians have very strongly indicated that they do not want cuts to the library. Most seem to reject closing branches outright, are pretty pissed off about reducing hours, and don't want to reduce staff if it will reduce services. So the Board is kind of stuck about what they can do. 

So it's cut branches, cut hours, or cut even more staff which reduces services and prevents delivery of programs. 

Or tell the Mayor, sorry, this is the best we can do, and hope he doesn't overrule everyone and come up with his own plan for cuts. (My understanding is that this is how the Urban Affairs branch was closed, but I wasn't following closely at the time.)

Article: Toronto News: Library board refuses to cut branch hours - thestar.com


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> It's kind of neither. The Mayor told every department to cut 10%, whether or not they can actually find 10% to cut. A few departments--most notably the police--have been able to tell the Mayor that they just aren't going to do it, and got away with it.
> 
> Torontonians have very strongly indicated that they do not want cuts to the library. Most seem to reject closing branches outright, are pretty pissed off about reducing hours, and don't want to reduce staff if it will reduce services. So the Board is kind of stuck about what they can do.
> 
> So it's cut branches, cut hours, or cut even more staff which reduces services and prevents delivery of programs.
> 
> Or tell the Mayor, sorry, this is the best we can do, and hope he doesn't overrule everyone and come up with his own plan for cuts. (My understanding is that this is how the Urban Affairs branch was closed, but I wasn't following closely at the time.)
> 
> Article: Toronto News: Library board refuses to cut branch hours - thestar.com


Well, let's all hope that cuts to the literacy programs and the libraries are not made .............. since if it can happen in TCoTU, it can happen anywhere. We shall see.

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## Lawrence

I hear the Fords now want to build a 75 storey building at #10 York street.
I hope they are planning on putting aside a few of those floors for the homeless,
Considering they are selling all those run down city housing lands to eliminate "Gravy".


----------



## groovetube

He got elected on the same conservative bullcrap we get in other levels of government. Tell people there's gravy, they're gonna cut taxes and no they wont cut services.

And people go right off the cliff like lemmings for it.

Ford's no different, he simply lied. That's all there is to it.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> At this point in time, it's just a proposal.
> 
> The Library Board was tasked with reducing their budget by 10%. They've already reduce some by layoffs. The Chief Librarian then suggested the rest could be made up by reducing hours, which the Board was not in favour of. One Board member suggested cutting more staff, but this was also not supported. So then they are left with programs like Adult Literacy.
> 
> Or, they can go back to Ford and say, this is the best we can do, and see what happens....


We could start by paying a heck of a lot less than $40/hr to the staff for doing nothing (knew someone who worked there). 

Do we really need 100 libraries in the amalgamated city, with some just a few short blocks away from each other? 

Seriously...in this age of digital information and the internet on every phone is it really necessary to maintain all that costly real estate? There's a huge cost in terms of maintenance, repairs, staffing and impact on the environment.

From what I've seen when I did stop in at a library, we could probably do with half of that. Of course book worms an those who gain monetarily from the libraries are going to be upset, but let's face it, times are different.

As far as the literacy programme is concerned, why do you need the library and any sort of funding? You volunteer, the adult needing instruction can purchase their own notebook and pen for $2 and all you need is a church basement for instruction. Just like in the old days...


----------



## groovetube

it's already been shown that toronto libraries are among the most used in the world. We didn't vote for cuts, he lied. If he was honest about doing all these cuts I doubt he would have been elected.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> it's already been shown that toronto libraries are among the most used in the world. We didn't vote for cuts, he lied. If he was honest about doing all these cuts I doubt he would have been elected.


Really? Wonder where that statistic came from. Well we know about statistics, don't we?

As far as lying goes...well so did Dalton...twice...and still got elected. Must be a southern Ontario thang. LOL 

Yeah, he probably did lie, but that does not mean some cuts don't need to be made. As long as it's not my programmes, pet projects or wages that'll get cut, right?


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Really? Wonder where that statistic came from. Well we know about statistics, don't we?
> 
> As far as lying goes...well so did Dalton...twice...and still got elected. Must be a southern Ontario thang. LOL
> 
> Yeah, he probably did lie, but that does not mean some cuts don't need to be made. As long as it's not my programmes, pet projects or wages that'll get cut, right?


it was all over the news. 

And Ford's lie to me was far worse, he didn't lie a little, he took people for idiots.

No cuts to services, and tax cuts. When, it'll be higher taxes, and lots of cuts to services.

The man makes McSquinty look honest. And man that's saying something...


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> As far as the literacy programme is concerned, why do you need the library and any sort of funding? You volunteer, the adult needing instruction can purchase their own notebook and pen for $2 and all you need is a church basement for instruction. Just like in the old days...


The library, like for many programs, offers a centralized point in the community to reach out to adults who are struggling with literacy. 

As for funding, for starters, books specific to adult learners, copyrighted training materials, learning games and tools, computers, software, trained staff to conduct assessments of the learner's abilities and skills, volunteer training & co-ordination, learner co-ordination, etc.

Staff (non-union, by the way, if it matters) is stretched very thin--my one staff person covers two locations, which means each is only open for a couple of days a week, and I volunteer at one of the largest libraries in the city. (North York Central). Only a handful of libraries that offer an adult literacy program... other libraries or literacy organizations refer people here. If we're talking about cutting this, we're talking about scraping the bottom of the here.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> As for funding, for starters, books specific to adult learners, copyrighted training materials, learning games and tools, computers, software, trained staff to conduct assessments of the learner's abilities and skills, volunteer training & co-ordination, learner co-ordination, etc.
> 
> .


Honestly, I'm not trying to be a "dick" about this, but yikes, that's pretty high-tech and complex for something we've been doing for thousands of years with a black tablet and a piece of chalk.

As with most things today, we complicate and specialize simple things to the point where it becomes so convoluted as to become out of reach for those that could benefit the most.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Honestly, I'm not trying to be a "dick" about this, but yikes, that's pretty high-tech and complex for something we've been doing for thousands of years with a black tablet and a piece of chalk.
> 
> As with most things today, we complicate and specialize simple things to the point where it becomes so convoluted as to become out of reach for those that could benefit the most.


I'm sure Dr.G. can explain this better...  

But adult learners have a much, much harder time learning to read and write than children. Some learners don't respond well to chalk and blackboard which may be part of why they are struggling with literacy as adults--a lot of adult learners went to school as children, but still came out of it without learning to read or write. If they just don't learn well that way, it doesn't do much good to keep trying to teach them that way. 

But there are other reasons why adult learners often need specialized materials.

For example, one of the best ways to help someone read is to give them something interesting to read. One challenge with adult learners is that they have adult interests but a child's reading level. If you are, say, a 50 year old man, do you really think something like "The Cat in the Hat" is particularly interesting to you? Do you think that as a 50 year old man who cannot read well that you might get embarrassed or ashamed that you are struggling to read a children's book and that this might interfere with your ability to learn? That's not to say that we don't use children's books--we do--but it is more effective to have material that is interesting and relevant to adults. But those are relatively specialized books. (One day, I think I should try writing smutty romance novels in easier language--I know some learners who would love those.)

Assessing exactly what someone's reading ability is, and where they need help, and how to help them is also a specialized skill. Simply knowing how to read and write doesn't make you able to figure out how to break down everything into pieces for the learner. That's why volunteers need training, and why there needs to be trained staff available too. 

We also, in Canada, need a much higher level of literacy to function than some other places in the world. I don't need a computer to help a learner to write her address. I do need a computer to help someone learn to send an email. And it's things like having to suddenly know how to use email at work that often drives people into literacy programs--suddenly they are unable to do their jobs because there is a change in how something is done. 

One example: at North York Central library, there are automated checkouts. This means they can reduce library staff saving everyone money. Fantastic. But the instructions for how to use it are written on a computer screen, which means that a person who struggles with literacy cannot use it. If you go to the desk, they tell you to follow the instructions on the screen. So my learner who has been happily taking out books to practice at home now has a problem. 

But this isn't an issue of it being my pet program. 40% of Canadians struggle with literacy skills that are necessary in the modern workplace. If a big chunk of our workforce has a hard time coping with basic skills, that's an economic problem for all levels of government to solve.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> I'm sure Dr.G. can explain this better...
> 
> But adult learners have a much, much harder time learning to read and write than children. Some learners don't respond well to chalk and blackboard which may be part of why they are struggling with literacy as adults--a lot of adult learners went to school as children, but still came out of it without learning to read or write. If they just don't learn well that way, it doesn't do much good to keep trying to teach them that way.
> 
> But there are other reasons why adult learners often need specialized materials.
> 
> For example, one of the best ways to help someone read is to give them something interesting to read. One challenge with adult learners is that they have adult interests but a child's reading level. If you are, say, a 50 year old man, do you really think something like "The Cat in the Hat" is particularly interesting to you? Do you think that as a 50 year old man who cannot read well that you might get embarrassed or ashamed that you are struggling to read a children's book and that this might interfere with your ability to learn? That's not to say that we don't use children's books--we do--but it is more effective to have material that is interesting and relevant to adults. But those are relatively specialized books. (One day, I think I should try writing smutty romance novels in easier language--I know some learners who would love those.)
> 
> Assessing exactly what someone's reading ability is, and where they need help, and how to help them is also a specialized skill. Simply knowing how to read and write doesn't make you able to figure out how to break down everything into pieces for the learner. That's why volunteers need training, and why there needs to be trained staff available too.
> 
> We also, in Canada, need a much higher level of literacy to function than some other places in the world. I don't need a computer to help a learner to write her address. I do need a computer to help someone learn to send an email. And it's things like having to suddenly know how to use email at work that often drives people into literacy programs--suddenly they are unable to do their jobs because there is a change in how something is done.
> 
> One example: at North York Central library, there are automated checkouts. This means they can reduce library staff saving everyone money. Fantastic. But the instructions for how to use it are written on a computer screen, which means that a person who struggles with literacy cannot use it. If you go to the desk, they tell you to follow the instructions on the screen. So my learner who has been happily taking out books to practice at home now has a problem.
> 
> But this isn't an issue of it being my pet program. 40% of Canadians struggle with literacy skills that are necessary in the modern workplace. If a big chunk of our workforce has a hard time coping with basic skills, that's an economic problem for all levels of government to solve.


Sonal, you said it quite well. No need for any help from me. 

I wish I could post a short assignment I usually give to my students to demonstrate what it is like to know that you are unable to read. I made up my own orthography, gave them some clues that any child might pick up in their environment (e.g., ^+=# means stop). Some students are able to master this new orthography slowly, and they sound like students who have just learned to read. Others sound like they are non-readers. It is a humbling experience, and students who I had 34 years ago still talk of this experience.

The key point is that you are correct that workplace literacy is a national problem, basic literacy is a national problem, and while there is no easy solution, there are activities and places that help make learning to read and write effectively, regardless of the age, possible.

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## kps

Okay, I'll leave it to you experts, because I see that in today's world it's necessary to dissect it into complicated and extended bits (such as workplace, basic, etc.). I was under the impression we were discussing the rudimentary "read'n 'n writ'n" skilz.....

'sides, we've been down this path be4...http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/62124-40-illiteracy-rate-canada.html


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> Okay, I'll leave it to you experts, because I see that in today's world it's necessary to dissect it into complicated and extended bits (such as workplace, basic, etc.). I was under the impression we were discussing the rudimentary "read'n 'n writ'n" skilz.....
> 
> 'sides, we've been down this path be4...http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/62124-40-illiteracy-rate-canada.html


Actually, we all need to be involved and concerned about this issue. A literate electorate is able to vote more intelligently, a literate workforce is able to work more effectively, a literate person is able to function in the community in a more involved manner. 

Thus, we can't leave it to the "experts" to show us the way, but we need to get involved in some manner, no matter how big or small, is needed to help keep "Canada strong and free".

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> Actually, we all need to be involved and concerned about this issue. A literate electorate is able to vote more intelligently, a literate workforce is able to work more effectively, a literate person is able to function in the community in a more involved manner.
> 
> Thus, we can't leave it to the "experts" to show us the way, but we need to get involved in some manner, no matter how big or small, is needed to help keep "Canada strong and free".
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


+1!

Well put!


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> Actually, we all need to be involved and concerned about this issue. A literate electorate is able to vote more intelligently, a literate workforce is able to work more effectively, a literate person is able to function in the community in a more involved manner.


I find it sad and ironic that my learner likes and supports Mayor Ford....


----------



## groovetube

dr.g. said:


> actually, we all need to be involved and concerned about this issue. A literate electorate is able to vote more intelligently, a literate workforce is able to work more effectively, a literate person is able to function in the community in a more involved manner.
> 
> Thus, we can't leave it to the "experts" to show us the way, but we need to get involved in some manner, no matter how big or small, is needed to help keep "canada strong and free".
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


+1


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> +1!
> 
> Well put!


Merci, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> I find it sad and ironic that my learner likes and supports Mayor Ford....


Still, that is her/his democratic right. Most of the new Canadians I tutor actually said that they would have voted for PM Harper in the last federal election. We had a grand time discussing why, and while I disagreed with them, I did not try to sway anyone's opinion, but used it as a great opportunity for an open discussion in English.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> I find it sad and ironic that my learner likes and supports Mayor Ford....


Sounds like a smart individual, you should have no problem making your learner literate enough to run for the opportunity to be the next mayor.


----------



## groovetube

Service cuts coming in January affect Toronto transit agency's busiest routes - The Globe and Mail

awesome. Brought to you by the liar who said, no service cuts.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> Service cuts coming in January affect Toronto transit agency's busiest routes - The Globe and Mail
> 
> awesome. Brought to you by the liar who said, no service cuts.


It's seems to be his 10% solution for everything,
What the significance of 10% is, Is anyones guess.

What was Sherlocks Holmes % solution?
Seems that Mayor Ford requires even more to satisfy his folds of gravy.


----------



## groovetube

I believe his exact words were "no services would be cut, “guaranteed"

Liar.


----------



## BigDL

*Cut the fat woops Fords into the marrow*

So much for cut the fat and no tax increases.


CBC News said:


> Toronto residents will face a 2.5 per cent property tax increase in a draft budget unveiled Monday by Toronto Mayor Rob Ford that targets "out of control spending."



You can tell when Rob Ford is lying his lips are moving


----------



## groovetube

As I predicted. This liar delivers higher taxes, and less services.

Funny how that always works out eh?


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> So much for cut the fat and no tax increases.


He said taxes would not increase faster than inflation--12-month inflation figure: 2.9%. Tax increase: 2.5%.


----------



## groovetube

yeah, under his breath. But that's not how he made it sound.

He also said NO service cuts. Can't wriggle out of that one either.


----------



## Lichen Software

I think that here in Barrie, we can look forward to about 3 percent ...again. I fail to see the problem. You are drowning in debt. Pay your bills and get on with it, instead of saying "say it isn't so". Even Cotu hs to pay the bills sometime.


----------



## groovetube

but that's not what he ran on. He ran on NOT cutting services. Just the other day we heard we will have reduced service on toronto's busiest lines that are already stuffed to the gills, often you stand there as 5 or 6 streetcars go by with people practically hanging out of the doors.

And fares are going up. For starters. You fail to see the problem? Likely because you live in Barrie. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not begrudging the property tax hike. Services have to be paid for somehow.


----------



## Lichen Software

groovetube said:


> but that's not what he ran on. He ran on NOT cutting services. Just the other day we heard we will have reduced service on toronto's busiest lines that are already stuffed to the gills, often you stand there as 5 or 6 streetcars go by with people practically hanging out of the doors.
> 
> And fares are going up. For starters. You fail to see the problem? Likely because you live in Barrie.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not begrudging the property tax hike. Services have to be paid for somehow.


I don't fail to see the problem. You are failing to look beyond your borders, specifically due south and to the east. All of the cities south of you are in the Rust Belt. The only thing that stops you from being there is the border. I have been waiting for this for years ( and no not with any enthusiasm - I like Toronto).
If you look to the East of you, along Lake Ontario, Rust Belt Ontario is happening. These were vital communities that are now in stasis.

What he ran on, and what the books are telling him may be two separate things. He has to get expenses under control now. If he has to hurt someone's feelings - too bad. I have maintained that if he actually does his job, and it appears that he is trying to do it, he will be vilified and pilloried.

It is time for both Toronto and the Ontario government to batten down the hatches. Internationally, it is going to be a rough ride, but if finances are in order, a minimum number of people will get hurt.

Sorry, I am not just posting to be a thorn. I sold real estate for 20 years, up until 1998. I think the lowest rate I saw in all of that time was about 8%, with a more typical rate being 10 - 14%. Cripes, I was getting 14% on term deposits at one time. If things go bad, rates will go up. Current debt levels are not sustainable. Double the interest rate and they are totally out of control and no room to maneuver.

Things can happen really quickly in this arena as crisis follows crisis.

I hope I am wrong. But I would rather be wrong this way than the other way.


----------



## groovetube

Lichen Software said:


> I don't fail to see the problem. You are failing to look beyond your borders, specifically due south and to the east. All of the cities south of you are in the Rust Belt. The only thing that stops you from being there is the border. I have been waiting for this for years ( and no not with any enthusiasm - I like Toronto).
> If you look to the East of you, along Lake Ontario, Rust Belt Ontario is happening. These were vital communities that are now in stasis.
> 
> What he ran on, and what the books are telling him may be two separate things. He has to get expenses under control now. If he has to hurt someone's feelings - too bad. I have maintained that if he actually does his job, and it appears that he is trying to do it, he will be vilified and pilloried.
> 
> It is time for both Toronto and the Ontario government to batten down the hatches. Internationally, it is going to be a rough ride, but if finances are in order, a minimum number of people will get hurt.
> 
> Sorry, I am not just posting to be a thorn. I sold real estate for 20 years, up until 1998. I think the lowest rate I saw in all of that time was about 8%, with a more typical rate being 10 - 14%. Cripes, I was getting 14% on term deposits at one time. If things go bad, rates will go up. Current debt levels are not sustainable. Double the interest rate and they are totally out of control and no room to maneuver.
> 
> Things can happen really quickly in this arena as crisis follows crisis.
> 
> I hope I am wrong. But I would rather be wrong this way than the other way.


To be honest, I'm not really sure what any of this, has to do with Toronto's budget. 

Honestly, if there is over spending, I'm for, cutting that out. I don't know why wanting there to be no service cuts, automatically makes one -for- overspending. This is completely false.

I don't buy for a second Rob Ford looked at the books and suddenly went, oh no, it's worse than I thought. He was in council for 10 years, and knew full well what the budget situation was. 

There's a difference between cutting out the 'gravy', or overspending, and ensuring services, especially things like IMPROVING a really stuffed to the gills transit system. That, is going to get out of control, really fast, if we continue to have a mayor who insists on spending far more on solutions in only certain parts of the city.

Battening down the hatches, well it would have been smarter to opt for a transit plan that got the most improvements for more areas of the city for less money.

I just don't think Ford, is the right man to lead the entire city.


----------



## Lawrence

I want to know why he's taking money from the poor and kept #10 York street,
Beside the fact that it is really hot city owned real estate and the occupy people haven't occupied it yet.


----------



## groovetube

Ford asks court to set aside decision to audit his election expenses - The Globe and Mail

ah yes. Another conservative soapboxing on honesty, not overspending etc., well except when it comes to them I guess. Breaking some rules, well, it's ok eh.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> I want to know why he's taking money from the poor and kept #10 York street,
> Beside the fact that it is really hot city owned real estate and the occupy people haven't occupied it yet.


Which money has he _taken_ from the poor. Do you mean by not increasing the amount that the poor get from the city?


----------



## groovetube

I think you have to actually follow the issue a little more closely. If you're even asking the question, then it shows you haven't.


----------



## groovetube

Josh D. Scheinert: Toronto's Dangerous Mayor

ouch.



> A grown-up, a mayor no less, feels he is entitled to behave like a child who won't stop crying until he gets his way, no matter what he breaks by banging his fists in the process. Many will say, "I told you so." But this is a new low.


yep. This in one year.


----------



## MacDoc

You underestimate Ford's depths.....

Toronto News: Doug Ford suggests schools explore UFC-linked program - thestar.com

of lunacy :yikes:

one wonders what was in the drinking water on election day...


----------



## Dr.G.

MacDoc said:


> You underestimate Ford's depths.....
> 
> Toronto News: Doug Ford suggests schools explore UFC-linked program - thestar.com
> 
> of lunacy :yikes:
> 
> one wonders what was in the drinking water on election day...


They could marry this plan with the plan proposed by Newt Gingrich in the US -- he proposes doing away with child labor legislation and have kids as young as 9 years old work as janitor assistants. The TO schools could have UFC clubs and actual matches in the schools, and the kids could be hired to clean up the blood and guts that get spilled at some of these matches. A real money-maker for the schools and a way to employ kids. This way, TO could cut some funding to the schools and collect income tax from kids who are now working. Does TO have an income tax like NYC???


----------



## i-rui




----------



## groovetube

oh my.


----------



## BigDL

i-rui said:


>


I now see the resemblance, Jabba the Mayor.


----------



## Lawrence

Mayor Ford debut's in the Nutcracker as himself...A fool.


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> Mayor Ford debut's in the Nutcracker as himself...A fool.


Maybe he has found a whole new career. Next stop, Broadway.


----------



## groovetube

awesome. bon voyage!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> awesome. bon voyage!


Well, since this is only his second on-stage performance, a few terms as mayor of TO would be needed to get him ready for The Great White Way.


----------



## groovetube

that was mean.

Though it doesn't appear he'll get his second term at this rate.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> that was mean.
> 
> Though it doesn't appear he'll get his second term at this rate.


Three or four terms in TO to lead the GTA back to its glory days ............. and then on to Broadway and maybe even a Tony Award. We shall see.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Well, since this is only his second on-stage performance, a few terms as mayor of TO would be needed to get him ready for The Great White Way.


The stage may be where the Mayor indeed shines, so The Great White Way might be the goal.

He might give up his day job. 

The Mayor seems to be quite camera shy and apparently not a morning person, so TV and Film, are likely out of the question.


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> The stage may be where the Mayor indeed shines, so The Great White Way might be the goal.
> 
> He might give up his day job.
> 
> The Mayor seems to be quite camera shy and apparently not a morning person, so TV and Film, are likely out of the question.


There are plans for a revival of "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof", the fine play by Tennessee Williams. Mayor Ford could play Big Daddy Pollitt. The original Broadway production, which opened in 1955, had Burl Ives as Big Daddy.


----------



## BigDL

Just as long as it doesn't happen to His Honour
"A little bitty tear let me down, spoiled my act as a clown
I had it made up not make a frown, but a little bitty tear let me down."


----------



## Dr.G.

BigDL said:


> Just as long as it doesn't happen to His Honour
> "A little bitty tear let me down, spoiled my act as a clown
> I had it made up not make a frown, but a little bitty tear let me down."


A classic Burl Ives song, BigDL. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Lawrence

I could understand making cutbacks for the rich or even the middle class,
But not the poor and especially not to the children of Toronto.

It's despicable

Source:
I need your help: City Budget 2012 - Here's what you need to know.


----------



## Sonal

Slightly celebratory afternoon at my adult literacy tutoring session this afternoon, since yesterday the Board decided not to cut the program, and to tell Mayor Ford that a 5.9% reduction is all they are going for. I couldn't attend the Board meeting, but sent in a written deputation, as did a number of other volunteers and learners. 

Found out that one learner (who sent in a written deputation protesting cutting the literacy program) defends Ford vigourously but blames the potential cuts to the program, the upcoming fare hikes to the TTC, etc, on McGuinty.... this learner was very surprised to find out that these were not provincial decisions. Might have to start using newspapers as learning material.


----------



## groovetube

one very good reason why I think Hudak's campaign mysteriously went south.

A real, head scratcher that!


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> Slightly celebratory afternoon at my adult literacy tutoring session
> <snip>
> Might have to start using newspapers as learning material.


First, congrats on the continued tutoring...

Next, good idea re the newspapers as long as you do not use the Star...


----------



## groovetube

well that student likely learned the horsecrap from the sun.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> well that student likely learned the horsecrap from the sun.


hehe


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Slightly celebratory afternoon at my adult literacy tutoring session this afternoon, since yesterday the Board decided not to cut the program, and to tell Mayor Ford that a 5.9% reduction is all they are going for. I couldn't attend the Board meeting, but sent in a written deputation, as did a number of other volunteers and learners.
> 
> Found out that one learner (who sent in a written deputation protesting cutting the literacy program) defends Ford vigourously but blames the potential cuts to the program, the upcoming fare hikes to the TTC, etc, on McGuinty.... this learner was very surprised to find out that these were not provincial decisions. Might have to start using newspapers as learning material.


Good to hear, Sonal. Small victories lead to bigger things down the road, especially when it pertains to literacy education. Kudos, mon amie.


----------



## groovetube

Let's play.... Juxtapose! 

first...
Ford optimistic deal can be reached with union | CTV Toronto

and then!
CP24- Union accuses city of bargaining in bad faith


weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


----------



## Lawrence

I hear Ford say that he's already campaigning to go for Mayor of T.O. in 2014.

Fat chance!!!


----------



## i-rui




----------



## Lawrence

More of the same...Sort of...


----------



## Lawrence

...




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Lawrence

911 is busy because the Ford family is using it again,
But it isn't Rob Ford that is calling this time...It's the Mother in law.

Rob Ford household in the news yet again on Christmas Day.

I thought hearing about Paris Hilton or even Lindsey Lohan all the time in the news was bad,
But, This is getting ridiculous with Rob Ford.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Someone got stuck in the chimney dressed up as Santa?


----------



## Dr.G.

jimbotelecom said:


> Someone got stuck in the chimney dressed up as Santa?


XX)


----------



## mrjimmy

I see a tabloid style scandal in Toronto's future.


----------



## i-rui

mrjimmy said:


> I see a tabloid style scandal in Toronto's future.


like this ? :

Toronto News: Rob Ford?s sister?s ex-boyfriend charged with threatening death - thestar.com


----------



## RobotGuy

Poor Mayor Ford. When will Mary Walsh and that other "intruder" learn that he just doesn't want to be bothered?


----------



## Lawrence

RobotGuy said:


> Poor Mayor Ford. When will Mary Walsh and that other "intruder" learn that he just doesn't want to be bothered?


I agree, But really, He should put the wheels back on his house.

beejacon


----------



## Lawrence

Just take a number and call me in the morning... LOL!!!





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

this idiot has turned city hall into romper room.

nice.


----------



## i-rui

lol at the donors list


----------



## Dr.G.

Give Ford credit for trying to lose 50 pounds. I am down 30 pounds with another 35 to go, and it is NOT easy. I don't agree with his policies, but I do support his efforts to cut his waist line down a bit. We shall see.


----------



## i-rui

i would if i thought his motivation was genuine. IMO it's a PR stunt to divert attention from his absolute failure to follow through on his ridiculous campaign promises (i.e. cut spending but not services)


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> i would if i thought his motivation was genuine. IMO it's a PR stunt to divert attention from his absolute failure to follow through on his ridiculous campaign promises (i.e. cut spending but not services)


+1000

It couldn't be clearer here what this is about. However, I wish him well on his weight loss, as carrying around -that- much weight is really hazardous to one's health.


----------



## Joker Eh

i-rui said:


> i would if i thought his motivation was genuine. IMO it's a PR stunt to divert attention from his absolute failure to follow through on his ridiculous campaign promises *(i.e. cut spending but not services)*


All I heard was Stop the Gravy Train. 

But you expected to cut spending but not lose services and not raise taxes?


----------



## groovetube

he clearly said many times NO SERVICE CUTS *GUARANTEED *.

That's why people bought it.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






BALD FACED LIAR


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> lol at the donors list


Most of those were eliminated. 

This morning I tried pledging $10 to the Toronto Public Library Foundation. It wouldn't let me, because I had used a blocked word... evidently "Library" is a dirty word.

(I'm not kidding, I seriously did try and I seriously was blocked.)


----------



## Lawrence

Blame it all on amalgamation, If only Toronto was a smaller city,
Just think how much easier it would be to balance the budget and keep all the services.


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> Blame it all on amalgamation, If only Toronto was a smaller city,
> Just think how much easier it would be to balance the budget and keep all the services.


You can blame amalgamation all you want, but it was inevitable. No real point in wishing things were the way the would never end up. 

I would think, however, that amalgamation would make it easier on the old city of Toronto--a larger tax base to draw from, and there is a concentration of services in the downtown core. (There's a lot more shelters within a short walk of me downtown, then there are by my parents place in North York.)

This, however, is what got Ford elected... there still aren't many Torontonians with a view of the city as a whole. We still think in terms of Toronto vs all the surrounding cities. That isn't helpful.


----------



## i-rui

Joker Eh said:


> All I heard was Stop the Gravy Train.


then you didn't listen closely enough. as Groovetube already posted a video you can see he did say that. incase you think that was out of context here's Ford's very own campaign video (jump to 4:10)





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






"we can reach this target by cutting waste. we do not need to cut services"

i can understand why you thought all he said was "stop the gravy train" since he repeated it like a mantra when journalists questioned him on what exactly that "waste" was and how he could possibly cut so much and leave services untouched.



Joker Eh said:


> But you expected to cut spending but not lose services and not raise taxes?


me? god no. i knew he was a liar once i heard the ridiculous proposition.

unfortunately a lot of toronto bought the BS he sold.


----------



## i-rui

Sonal said:


> Most of those were eliminated.
> 
> This morning I tried pledging $10 to the Toronto Public Library Foundation. It wouldn't let me, because I had used a blocked word... evidently "Library" is a dirty word.
> 
> (I'm not kidding, I seriously did try and I seriously was blocked.)


lol.

library is a bad word in the Ford administration.


----------



## Joker Eh

groovetube said:


> he clearly said many times NO SERVICE CUTS *GUARANTEED *.
> 
> That's why people bought it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BALD FACED LIAR


I expect all politicians to lie. I remember Dalton's pedges and yet he keeps getting re-elected. I have no answer how they get in and change their mind but they all do. 

The only one I remember keeping his promise was Mike Harris and his promise to remove those speed cameras in vans. Remember those?

Other than that they are all the same they have to get you to vote for them.


----------



## Lawrence

City Hall is now like Fort Apache, News at eleven.
Boy, That's a lot of upset people.


----------



## groovetube

Toronto budget passes as protesters arrested - Toronto - CBC News



> 'They see money in front of them, it's like putting food in front of a dog.'


You just gotta love when the right shrieks about the incivility of the left.


----------



## Sonal

It's a good day in Toronto. Was watching the whole meeting go down via Twitter.


----------



## Sonal

And.... quite predictably, we are in a position to go to strike or lockdown in 17 days....

Toronto News: Toronto union lockout countdown to Feb. 5 begins as minister issues ?no board? report - thestar.com


----------



## groovetube

i have a feeling this could be a really long one if it happens.


----------



## Lawrence

If there is a strike, I hope people start dumping there garbage at City Hall.
We are sick of them putting it into the skating rinks and open areas of our parks.


----------



## Macfury

Ford never said he would not cut the level of some services--he said the services would remain. He's kept that promise, though I wish he would cut out some of the services entirely.

After the promised strike--good on Ford. Time for a showdown with the unions.


----------



## Sonal

I'm happy the overturned the cuts to the services (amounting to a about 0.2% of the city budget, but whose counting?  ) What's most important about this is that council is starting to act independently of the Mayor--changes things politically, and let's people know that if you rally enough supporters, it may actually make a difference. Important messages, regardless of your political preferences.

As for the potential upcoming strike, it seems the sticking point is the so-called 'jobs for life' provision which the City wants removed. I support that. 

I'm a sometimes uncomfortable anti-unionist, since in many ways I lean left and because there is and has been a lot of value in labour organizations. But the City of Toronto union employees overall seem a very poor example of the benefits of unions in that they appear to protect privileges that most other working people do not enjoy. I can't get behind that.


----------



## kps

Just two quick thoughts...

Glad it's cold outside and glad that the prevailing winds blow east and i live west of Tranna.

Good luck my TO friends, have at 'er.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> I'm a sometimes uncomfortable anti-unionist, since in many ways I lean left and because there is and has been a lot of value in labour organizations. But the City of Toronto union employees overall seem a very poor example of the benefits of unions in that they appear to protect privileges that most other working people do not enjoy. I can't get behind that.


Does that include the library workers? 

Another problem and one that afflicts many large cities across North America is that cronyism and nepotism are rampant in their hiring practices. In some cases it spans 3 or more generations.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Does that include the library workers?


In fact yes. The program I volunteer in is staffed by non-union employees.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Ford never said he would not cut the level of some services--he said the services would remain. He's kept that promise, though I wish he would cut out some of the services entirely.
> 
> After the promised strike--good on Ford. Time for a showdown with the unions.


he did NOT say, "some" services. He did not make any distinctions. He clearly said he would not cut services, "guaranteed". Those were his words.

That is a lie. And Ford was forced, to keep his promise. Otherwise he tried valiantly to break it.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> he did NOT say, "some" services.
> 
> That is a lie. And Ford was forced, to keep his promise. Otherwise he tried valiantly to break it.


I love to see this pants-pissing! You keep saying he lied. He didn't and that may be tough for you to accept.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I love to see this pants-pissing! You keep saying he lied. He didn't and that may be tough for you to accept.


it's only "pants-pissing" to you because here's another example of your inability to engage in dialog.

When someone says NO service cuts... guaranteed, it means, NO service cuts. If he goes back on this, it's either a lie, or a broken promise. But it seems it's only that, if a liberal is involved.

If service cuts and spending cuts were desired, then he should not have lied to the public during his campaign. He was a city councillor for 10 years and knew very well what the budget situation was. Let him run on the honest truth of what he intends to do, rather than deceiving voters.


----------



## groovetube

CP24- Ford brothers shed pounds in first week of dieting

Look! Shiny ball! Generally a strategy that has worked well before eh?

Mayor Ford’s weight-loss secret: Exercise and ‘eating like a rabbit’ - The Globe and Mail



> The brothers refused to answer a question regarding recent comments from TTC Chair Karen Stintz, who has stated that burying the entire Eglinton LRT as Mr. Ford has planned isn’t feasible.
> 
> “Not talking about that today,” Mayor Ford said curtly.


Don't you see we're not here to discuss politics.. oh LOOK! Shiny BALL!


----------



## Macfury

Somebody here seems fascinated with the mayor's balls.


----------



## groovetube

Try to stay on topic.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Try to stay on topic.


He's distracted by the Mayor's shiny balls....


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> He's distracted by the Mayor's shiny balls....


That's what I thought. :clap:


----------



## Sonal

And so.... the union-busting begins.

Official City Memo:
http://www.toronto.ca/bargaining/pdf/memo-city-manger-030312.pdf

I have a personal interest in this, as my most irritating tenant is a member of this union, and while it's an unlikely scenario, I dream of the schadenfreude of his losing his job and being unable to pay the rent, which would in turn lead to his eviction. Or even a very long strike.... that might work too.


----------



## Macfury

Let the union-bashing begin!


----------



## mrjimmy

To the bottom we race.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> To the bottom we race.


Last one there is a rotten union-card holder. Still, as they say, if you don't know where you are going, any road shall get you there. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> To the bottom we race.


I personally don't see any reason to support the 1%--city workers who have gold-plated benefits and pensions--with my hard-earned dollars.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> And so.... the union-busting begins.
> 
> Official City Memo:
> http://www.toronto.ca/bargaining/pdf/memo-city-manger-030312.pdf
> 
> I have a personal interest in this, as my most irritating tenant is a member of this union, and while it's an unlikely scenario, I dream of the schadenfreude of his losing his job and being unable to pay the rent, which would in turn lead to his eviction. Or even a very long strike.... that might work too.


For the love of God...where's your empathy????


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> For the love of God...where's your empathy????


Oh, he'll be devastated. The life he's known--the job, the apartment he loves--for over 25 years will change. It'll be a huge shock and a major adjustment for him, and probably quite terrifying. It's highly unlikely that he will find another job that pays so well, and virtually a given that he will not find another apartment affordable enough and large enough to contain his many family heirlooms. This would probably one of the biggest changes of his life and it will be entirely involuntary, and I wouldn't be surprised if it took him a few years to figure out how to start over. It will be horrible.

I doubt he's going to look at the bright side of it, which is that I'll be rid of him.


----------



## i-rui

it'd be awesome if they get a big fat raise just so Sonal is stuck with her tenant forever. 

Hopefully he'll have a massive party in the apartment with hookers, drugs and donkeys. just to rub it in.


----------



## groovetube

:greedy:In a break from my communist leanings, I think the unions do need a little taste of some "no" here. Given that Ron ford has so far been a bit of a joke for the most part, if any good could come out of any of this song and dance, maybe this could one.

But he may even screw that up too. Here's to hoping.

I wonder though if those who have been such staunch supporters of filling exec's backpackers with piles more money so that we have to swallow this inane idea that we have to squeeze those greedy seniors in poverty more, are so vocal and insistent that Canada's new government slash and burn their obscene golden pensions as well.


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> it'd be awesome if they get a big fat raise just so Sonal is stuck with her tenant forever.
> 
> Hopefully he'll have a massive party in the apartment with hookers, drugs and donkeys. just to rub it in.


I'm already stuck with him forever, pay raise or no pay raise. 

Mind you, Ford & co are offering a pay raise. The unions are saying no pay raise. So sure, let 'em take the pay raise. 

(In actual fact, he has enough seniority that even under the Ford offer, he's in no danger of losing anything. But a girl can dream.)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal, I think you mentioned him before--the guy that takes off huge swaths of time when he's supposed to be at work?


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> :greedy:In a break from my communist leanings, I think the unions do need a little taste of some "no" here. Given that Ron ford has so far been a bit of a joke for the most part, if any good could come out of any of this song and dance, maybe this could one.
> 
> But he may even screw that up too. Here's to hoping.


On a more serious and less practical note, while I have no issue with the idea of organized labour in general, when you have a situation where the union is protecting privileges that most people don't have.... I can't support that. 

I also can't buy the argument that what's good for union employees is good for non-union employees. If they were actively lobbying for changes to labour law so that everyone in Ontario would enjoy these privileges I might be able to get on board....


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Sonal, I think you mentioned him before--the guy that takes off huge swaths of time when he's supposed to be at work?


That's the one.

If someone wants to defend the rights of workers, he' s not the example you want to pick....


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> That's the one.
> 
> If someone wants to defend the rights of workers, he' s not the example you want to pick....


Ah...yet he's the untouchable wearing the teflon.


----------



## Sonal

http://www.toronto.ca/bargaining/pdf/benefits_tceu_416.pdf

They have some mighty fine benefits at CUPE 416.


----------



## SINC

Toronto, union reach tentative contract deal - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

that was awfully fast. WOnder who caved.


----------



## Macfury

The city always saves gobs of money during a strike, so the deal must have been good for the city, SINC.


----------



## Sonal

The deadline was extended by the mediator to 2 AM, and then a tentative deal was announced.

I have a hunch it was the union who gave in. The City doesn't have a lot to lose right now by giving in, so it would be bizarre if the did.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> The deadline was extended by the mediator to 2 AM, and then a tentative deal was announced.
> 
> I have a hunch it was the union who gave in. The City doesn't have a lot to lose right now by giving in, so it would be bizarre if the did.


For CUPE to give in to Ford shows team RODO just might be doing something right.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> For CUPE to give in to Ford shows team RODO just might be doing something right.


We'll see what the final deal is, but I think they handled the negotiations well. Helps that public opinion is strongly against the union right now due to last summer's garbage strike, but the unprecedented move of unilaterally imposing conditions was a smart one.

To force concessions out of the CUPE requires being a bit of a bully. This is their strength. They are likely going to win back a lot of public support over this one... well-timed, with transit issues coming to a head soon.

Of course, all this depends on what the final deal is.... if the City gave in on a lot, they are going to look like idiots.


----------



## groovetube

with public opinion against the unions, I think any mayor with 3 neurons to fire in unison could stand up to them.

Also, the union didn't have 35 degree heat for a nice garbage strike to help.

It'll be interesting to see what the terms ended up being.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> with public opinion against the unions, I think any mayor with 3 neurons to fire in unison could stand up to them.
> 
> Also, the union didn't have 35 degree heat for a nice garbage strike to help.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what the terms ended up being.


Except that the union was also aware of public opinion... they were asking to maintain the status quo, no wage increases, no benefit increases, etc. That would have been an easy deal to make, without either side appearing to give in.

But if Ford & Co have managed to get them to give up job security, then they will be seen as victors here. 

I'm very, very curious about what this final deal is.


----------



## kps

Yeah, should be interesting. Could be that CUPE is picking its battles and this is not one of them or the timing is off. We'll see how this pans out.

or...

*It's a trap!*


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Yeah, should be interesting. Could be that CUPE is picking its battles and this is not one of them or the timing is off. We'll see how this pans out.
> 
> or...
> 
> *It's a trap!*


There's still the contract with the much larger inside workers union to be dealt with.... but at least the garbage still gets picked up.


----------



## Sonal

Rebellion at City Hall
Toronto News: TTC chair Karen Stintz submits petition that could resurrect light rail plan - thestar.com

Karen Stintz, after attempting to work out a face-saving (for him) compromise with Mayor Ford and getting turned down flat, goes for broke. She was pretty much guaranteed to lose her role as TTC chair beforehand anyway, so I guess she's going out swinging.

Apparently, the provision she used that allows councillors to bring motions to council independently of the Mayor has never been used. Everything at City Hall is unprecedented these days.


----------



## Max

Things are heating up. The significant news of the union settlement over the weekend might well be eclipsed by the battle shaping up over the city's transit priorities. Good on Stintz for leading the charge.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Except that the union was also aware of public opinion... they were asking to maintain the status quo, no wage increases, no benefit increases, etc. That would have been an easy deal to make, without either side appearing to give in.
> 
> But if Ford & Co have managed to get them to give up job security, then they will be seen as victors here.
> 
> I'm very, very curious about what this final deal is.


as am I. It wouldn't be the first time Ford lost out and still stood up to declare it a win.

The transit battle should be interesting.


----------



## Sonal

Toronto News: Hume: Hardcore Ford supporters will be irked by city labour deal - thestar.com

Some tentative details on the labour dispute. Nothing released by official sources yet.


----------



## BigDL

The only problem with this "deal" is democracy. The rank and file union members, aka city employees may or may not vote for the deal.

It would not be the first time a tentative deal is voted down by the workers.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> as am I. It wouldn't be the first time Ford lost out and still stood up to declare it a win.
> 
> The transit battle should be interesting.


I tend to agree, I liked transit city,
Also, Comparing it to St.Clair west is definitely wrong.
The centre of the road in these instances are definitely different.


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> I tend to agree, I liked transit city,
> Also, Comparing it to St.Clair west is definitely wrong.
> The centre of the road in these instances are definitely different.


Speaking of St Clair West, last time I was in the area businesses seemed active and humming.


----------



## Lawrence

LOL...Mayor Ford got defeated by city council, Transit city gets the go ahead.
Mayor Ford was spotted riding the rails late last night trying to get support from the riders.


----------



## Lawrence

I like this comparison


----------



## groovetube

I'm loving this. Watching Ford stamp his feet trying to screech "irrelevant!' the wishes of the councillors voted for by the citizens of Toronto.


----------



## Lawrence

Yep, All those cutbacks on TTC bus routes may be moot now.

I love it.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I'm loving this. Watching Ford stamp his feet trying to screech "irrelevant!' the wishes of the councillors voted for by the citizens of Toronto.


If this is 'irrelevant', can we bring back the bike lanes?


----------



## groovetube

I think we should reconsider a few 'irrelevant' items


----------



## mrjimmy

Boy, the Ford Bros give Cirque De Soleil a run for their money as far as entertainment value.

Really looking forward to what comes next. Now that he has been humiliated by council, it's stands to reason that he and Dougie may very well _go rogue._

The Brothers Ford. Masters of their own undoing.


----------



## kps

I don't blame Ford for what has been a 30+ year neglect of the Toronto transit as a whole.

Subways are the way to go, except there's no funding and by the looks of it, never will be. So, Torontonians are going to be stuck with the clusterf**k that will be surface light rail.

Happy commuting y'all...


----------



## groovetube

I don't know that it's the clustercrap you say it is. I think the long debacle that st clair was is a bad example, spadina seems to be running quite well.

If you want clustercrap, you just wait another 5 or 10 years while ford spends 9 billion bucks doing one subway while the rest rots in hell waiting.

You'll get clutercrap. It's already there. The south end of the city is saturated.


----------



## Ottawaman

kps said:


> I don't blame Ford for what has been a 30+ year neglect of the Toronto transit as a whole.
> 
> Subways are the way to go, except there's no funding and by the looks of it, never will be. So, Torontonians are going to be stuck with the clusterf**k that will be surface light rail.
> 
> Happy commuting y'all...


Blast from the past anyone? 



> The Eglinton West subway was a proposed east-west subway line in Toronto, Ontario, Canada along Eglinton Avenue West. It was to start from the existing Eglinton West Station on the Toronto Transit Commission's Yonge-University-Spadina line and terminate at Black Creek Drive in its initial phase. City of York Mayor Fergy Brown, Metro Toronto Chairman Alan Tonks, Ontario Premier Bob Rae, Ontario Minister of Transportation Gilles Pouliot, and TTC Chair Mike Colle broke ground on the project in a ceremony on 25 August 1994 at Eglinton Avenue and Black Creek Drive;[1] however, work was halted in 1995 when the newly-elected Government of Ontario under Mike Harris cancelled the project. The excavation under Eglinton West intended to be Allen Station was subsequently filled in.


Eglinton West line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## kps

Ottawaman said:


> Blast from the past anyone?


Exactly!
The Eglinton subway would have been that vital link to Pearson Airport, thank you Mike Harris, big fail on his part for not throwing in a few bucks.

The Eglinton subway is still the most important link in the transit plan today...think about it.


----------



## groovetube

didn't you guys in ottawa have the same sort of genius (O'Brien I think) that did exactly what ford did, the whole gravy train BS and cancelled transit plans etc., and it ended in pretty much a disaster in Ottawa until you guys finally kicked the idiot out of office?

4 years is about as much as we can handle of this complete doofus.


----------



## Ottawaman

groovetube said:


> didn't you guys in ottawa have the same sort of genius (O'Brien I think) that did exactly what ford did, the whole gravy train BS and cancelled transit plans etc., and it ended in pretty much a disaster in Ottawa until you guys finally kicked the idiot out of office?
> 
> 4 years is about as much as we can handle of this complete doofus.


Yes we did, set back transit 20 years in Ottawa.


----------



## groovetube

lovely. We have our own mayor O'Brien right here too. From what I read, Ford's 'mandate' is almost carbon copy of the fool you guys just had.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> Exactly!
> The Eglinton subway would have been that vital link to Pearson Airport, thank you Mike Harris, big fail on his part for not throwing in a few bucks.
> 
> The Eglinton subway is still the most important link in the transit plan today...think about it.


IMO they should proceed as planned with transit city, burying the eglinton line west of the DVP, but the one change i hope they make is they burrow the tunnels so they're big enough for subways. They can use LRTs for now, but down the road if they need to switch to subways at least they'll have that option (versus tearing up the tunnels a second time to make them wider, which would be a massive waste of money and cripple the line for the work).

I realize that adds a lot of money to the project, but i rather they future proof all the downtown lines, even at the expense of not doing a finch line. outside of the core there is absolutely no reason to bury the lines.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> IMO they should proceed as planned with transit city, burying the eglinton line west of the DVP, but the one change i hope they make is they burrow the tunnels so they're big enough for subways. They can use LRTs for now, but down the road if they need to switch to subways at least they'll have that option (versus tearing up the tunnels a second time to make them wider, which would be a massive waste of money and cripple the line for the work).
> 
> I realize that adds a lot of money to the project, but i rather they future proof all the downtown lines, even at the expense of not doing a finch line. outside of the core there is absolutely no reason to bury the lines.


Didn't Stintz get on the wrong side of RODO (Rob & Doug) for suggesting to put the proposed Eglinton line above ground west of Jane or something like that?

The only problem I see with just burying the lines in the core is that the city is expected to grow by another 5 million in 10 years. If that is true, then I think that it is imperative to burry everything as you'll have huge movement between suburbs and not just within the city.


----------



## i-rui

kps said:


> Didn't Stintz get on the wrong side of RODO (Rob & Doug) for suggesting to put the proposed Eglinton line above ground west of Jane or something like that?


it was the other way around. Stintz was trying to get Ford to compromise and have the line above ground east of the DVP and Ford wouldn't budge, so she went above his head to council.



kps said:


> The only problem I see with just burying the lines in the core is that the city is expected to grow by another 5 million in 10 years. If that is true, then I think that it is imperative to burry everything as you'll have huge movement between suburbs and not just within the city.


it's a matter of something being better than nothing.

We'd all rather have subways, but thats just not feasible. IMO it's better to just dig a tunnel once, that's why i say dig them wide enough to use subways just in case.

The above ground lines can eventually be replaced with below ground 20,50 or 100 years down the road as needed. But at least they'll be running until the money is there (and also be able to run WHILE new tunnels are dug)


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> IMO they should proceed as planned with transit city, burying the eglinton line west of the DVP, but the one change i hope they make is they burrow the tunnels so they're big enough for subways. They can use LRTs for now, but down the road if they need to switch to subways at least they'll have that option (versus tearing up the tunnels a second time to make them wider, which would be a massive waste of money and cripple the line for the work).
> 
> I realize that adds a lot of money to the project, but i rather they future proof all the downtown lines, even at the expense of not doing a finch line. outside of the core there is absolutely no reason to bury the lines.


the near the lake lines are in serious trouble as all those thousands and thousands more condos come online. Ever try the queen or the king lines? fuggedaboudit.

Not to mention attempting to get on a bloor line at 8am. Suddenly, all those insane images from India transits with hundreds hanging off the sides don't seem far fetched.


----------



## i-rui

oh, toronto transit is screwed, no doubt.

but at this point council has to be as smart as they can and do the best they can with limited funds.


----------



## Macfury

The City of Toronto forced private lines serving Queens Quay to cease and desist. It isn't about moving people, it's about controlling the movement of people.


----------



## groovetube

Oh yeah, privatization. The right's dream. Too bad it never ends well.

Maybe we should get kpmg to study it like they did in the example Vaughn discovered because we know how well that turned out.


----------



## Lawrence

groovetube said:


> the near the lake lines are in serious trouble as all those thousands and thousands more condos come online. Ever try the queen or the king lines? fuggedaboudit.
> 
> Not to mention attempting to get on a bloor line at 8am. Suddenly, all those insane images from India transits with hundreds hanging off the sides don't seem far fetched.


They really need a monorail, Maybe they could build it into the side of the Gardiner expressway,
It could even act as a reinforcement to keep the Gardiner from falling down.


----------



## Lawrence

NOW Won't Apologize for Controversial Image of Mayor


----------



## Lawrence

Actually that photo depiction is incorrect,
Mayor Ford should be shooting himself in the foot and then dialling 911


----------



## kps

Lawrence said:


> "NOW Won't Apologize for Controversial Image of Mayor


NOW is a rag full of idiots. When even Adam _Giamboner_ thinks it;s wrong, you just know they jumped the shark on that one.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> NOW is a rag full of idiots. When even Adam _Giamboner_ thinks it;s wrong, you just know they jumped the shark on that one.


Typical leftist self-indulgence. They're on the side of goodness, dontchaknow, so they can do no wrong.

There's a publication that exists almost entirely on the advertisements of exploited prostitutes and the pimps who exploit them--such a vehicle of sterling principles.

The photo isn't distasteful because it involves Rob Ford. It's simply distasteful to exploit a suicide pose for the magazine's political purposes.


----------



## Lawrence

Ford is now saying that it's up to the Province to have a referendum on the Subway because
Fords election was his referendum and he got elected to build Subways, Well, Council got
elected too and they voted against Ford's Subway. Last time I checked I didn't vote for a dictatorship.


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> Ford is now saying that it's up to the Province to have a referendum on the Subway because
> Fords election was his referendum and he got elected to build Subways, Well, Council got
> elected too and they voted against Ford's Subway. Last time I checked I didn't vote for a dictatorship.


small detail eh? Somehow Ford seemed to think being voted in mayor meant absolute power.

And as for the now, shame on them for publishing a picture that sums it up succinctly. Listen, it's ford doing it to himself, they just told it, *cough*, like it is.

heh.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> small detail eh? Somehow Ford seemed to think being voted in mayor meant absolute power.
> 
> And as for the now, shame on them for publishing a picture that sums it up succinctly. Listen, it's ford doing it to himself, they just told it, *cough*, like it is.
> 
> heh.


I wouldn't have so much an issue with that image if it wasn't for NOW being a bunch of fervent anti legal gun ownership, pro long gun registry weenies who spew horsesh*t about how the long gun registry prevents suicides (which is false) and here they go picturing the mayor of Canada's largest city with a restricted firearm pointed at his head. Bunch of losers as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> I wouldn't have so much an issue with that image if it wasn't for NOW being a bunch of fervent anti legal gun ownership, pro long gun registry weenies who spew horsesh*t about how the long gun registry prevents suicides (which is false) and here they go picturing the mayor of Canada's largest city with a restricted firearm pointed at his head. Bunch of losers as far as I'm concerned.


I think if you stand back for a second and remember rob ford is likely one of the gun nuts, it'll make perfect sense.

Anyway, the image sure did it's job!


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I think if you stand back for a second and remember rob ford is likely one of the gun nuts, it'll make perfect sense.
> 
> Anyway, the image sure did it's job!


I don't think so on both counts. It reflects badly on only one and that is NOW.

If I was trying to portray the political suicide of the Mayor, I'd likely just have the _shadow_ of a noose projected on a wall behind Ford's image. That would have been a great way to *foreshadow* <--get it? his potential downfall. 

Also think mine would be a lot more createve than that photoshopped P.O.S. they published.


----------



## groovetube

oh I think you would have still b-ed and moaned


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> Actually that photo depiction is incorrect,
> Mayor Ford should be shooting himself in the foot and then dialling 911


That would have been way better.

I tried reading the Giambrone article, but he lost me on "CUPE won in the court of public opinion" and I couldn't read further.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> oh I think you would have still b-ed and moaned


Wrong-o buckaroo, I think team RODO have some serious problems.


----------



## groovetube

oh don't go switchin the goal posts now.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> oh don't go switchin the goal posts now.


I still think he's better than Miller...perhaps tied with Lastman.:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

better than miller?

I wouldn't say miller was the greatest by any means, but whether you like him or not, miller isn't just stupid fool like ford.

Lastman, despite the fact I think he nearly bankrupted toronto before miller got there, wasn't stupid either. 

Ford is just quite simply, an idiot. He simply got lucky at a time where chanting the right phrases got him elected. I wonder how long that'll work for him.


----------



## Lawrence

Wait until the other shoe drops, When they actually want to power all those new LRT's
and Toronto Hydro turns them down with the excuse that Toronto didn't give them any
money to increase the Toronto Hydro infrastructure.

I hope they take that into consideration and set money aside during the planning stages.

:lmao:


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> better than miller?
> 
> I wouldn't say miller was the greatest by any means, but whether you like him or not, miller isn't just stupid fool like ford.
> 
> Lastman, despite the fact I think he nearly bankrupted toronto before miller got there, wasn't stupid either.
> 
> Ford is just quite simply, an idiot. He simply got lucky at a time where chanting the right phrases got him elected. I wonder how long that'll work for him.


Lastman did well by North York for a long time. Not sure if he was at a point in his mayoral career to take on a new challenge like Toronto.... it would be a bit like Hazel McCallion coming in as mayor of Toronto. And Lastman, at least, knew enough to reach out to all sides.

Miller managed to put together a shovel-ready plan for improving transit. He got the plans, the approvals and most importantly the funding ready to go. 

Ford? I got to wonder about a guy whose running around at midnight after losing the vote trying to drum up popular support for his transit plan, when he could have:
a) Put his MOU to council about a year ago, at which time he likely would have gotten council approval
b) Been realistic about the actual technical challenges of his plan, e.g., tunneling under the Don River
c) Spent the year actually finding funding for his idea

It's like he's more concerned with being popular than he is with, um, doing his job as mayor. It's like as long as people are smiling at him and saying "Great job Rob!" he's happy.

He'd make a great small town mayor. (Well, small towns as I imagine them to be.)


----------



## Lawrence

It is kind of scary that Rob Ford is in the news more than Paris Hilton lately.


----------



## i-rui

Toronto News: James: The TTC subway report Mayor Rob Ford doesn?t want you to read - thestar.com



> Mayor Rob Ford has been sitting on a TTC report that shows job growth projections are so far off target in North York and Scarborough that it’s not advisable to build a subway linking the two centres.
> 
> Sources say Ford was given the analysis almost a year ago, after he demanded to know why the TTC wanted to build a light rail transit line along Sheppard, and not the subway it favoured 25 years ago.
> 
> The 11-page report, obtained by the Toronto Star, concludes it is ill-advised to build subways when job numbers, office development and transit ridership are so low.
> 
> “The world changed,” a source told the Star. “The mayor got the report,” but it has not gone public because “they don’t like the answer they got. The information is important because it explains why the TTC’s opinion is different today than in 1986.”
> 
> For example, planners projected 64,000 added jobs would come to the North York Centre, near Yonge and Sheppard, between 1986 and 2011. In fact, as of 2006, employment had grown by only 800 jobs over the two decades, the report says.
> 
> Scarborough Centre, at McCowan and Highway 401, was forecast to grow by 50,000 jobs. Figures for 2006 reveal a net loss of 700 jobs and a total of 13,700.


----------



## The Doug

Lawrence said:


> It is kind of scary that Rob Ford is in the news more than Paris Hilton lately.


I know. And they are so hard to tell apart.


----------



## kps

So what's up with CUPE 416? They pounded Miller into the ground, but acquiesced with team RODO? Actually accepted concessions? 

What's this world coming to....


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> So what's up with CUPE 416? They pounded Miller into the ground, but acquiesced with team RODO? Actually accepted concessions?
> 
> What's this world coming to....


Our public sector unions are starting to see that they have a teeny-tiny PR problem.... though there's still the inside-workers contract to hammer out.


----------



## groovetube

yes. It's a question of timing. Ford is benefitting from the fact that the unions went too far and took out their public opinion advantage in a big way.

larry curly and moe could have taken on the union at this point. Er, did.


----------



## kps

I don't know guys, that's a pretty radical local that has never really given a crap about PR and they loved Miller compared to Ford, so I still think some off the record backroom dealings were involved. It's down right bizarre.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> I don't know guys, that's a pretty radical local that has never really given a crap about PR and they loved Miller compared to Ford, so I still think some off the record backroom dealings were involved. It's down right bizarre.


If we all had guns in the City of Toronto,  I'm figuring a lot of those guys would have been shot and added to the stinking garbage heaps during the last strike. People were pissed at the union for striking, and pissed at Miller for giving in to union after they took us hostage. Add in a bad economy, and the notion of someone else having life-long job security when you don't becomes pretty enraging.

Aside from a few diehard pro-union folk, I don't think there's an ounce of sympathy left for them. 

I do think Ford&Co played this one smart by a) timing things to come to a head in winter and b) choosing the rare option of unilaterally imposing terms instead of locking them out. The union might have garnered some sympathy if they were locked out, but not if they decided to strike.

But largely, timing had a big role in this. If the union could have gone on strike without much PR damage, I don't think Ford&Co would have been able to get anything from them. CUPE416 blew their advantage under Miller.


----------



## groovetube

yup.


----------



## kps

Well according to the antis don't all Torontonians pack guns? Don't we have a gun crises and bloodshed in the streets? lol

I might have lost some of the _closeness_ when I moved to the burbs in 2007, so perhaps you're right, and they don't dare to antagonize the citizenry any further. 

I think the inside workers and library workers will follow, but you never know for sure.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Well according to the antis don't all Torontonians pack guns? Don't we have a gun crises and bloodshed in the streets? lol
> 
> I might have lost some of the _closeness_ when I moved to the burbs in 2007, so perhaps you're right, and they don't dare to antagonize the citizenry any further.
> 
> I think the inside workers and library workers will follow, but you never know for sure.


no, that was according to the conservatives. Hence the whole soft of crime nonsense and well you know the rest.

Short memory you have sir


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Well according to the antis don't all Torontonians pack guns? Don't we have a gun crises and bloodshed in the streets? lol
> 
> I might have lost some of the _closeness_ when I moved to the burbs in 2007, so perhaps you're right, and they don't dare to antagonize the citizenry any further.
> 
> I think the inside workers and library workers will follow, but you never know for sure.


Remains to be seen what's going to happen with the inside workers. They may still have some sympathy left on whether or not they can strike, and unlike with garbage, the City can't time this one to fall on a less inconvenient time for a work-stoppage.

And Toronto's made it very clear that we love our libraries staying open. 

I live in (what was) Smitherman country and work in Ford Nation--I get a view from both sides. And they are often different.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> no, that was according to the conservatives. Hence the whole soft of crime nonsense and well you know the rest.
> 
> Short memory you have sir



Talking about memory....Didn't know Miller was a Conservative... LOL


----------



## groovetube

I was talking federally. Miller was just a mayor, there isn't much he is going to do about gun crime really, other than some PR moments.


----------



## Sonal

Went a-googling.... blog post one day into the last strike. Note the comments and how many of them had ZERO sympathy. Even those who were okay with the strike were pissed off at having listen to protests at the transfer stations delaying people getting rid of their garbage. 
Toronto Garbage Strike: Smells like Summer

They blew it under Miller. If they'd conceded then, they might have had some leverage now. Instead, they pissed off the public to such a point that they actually voted in Ford.


----------



## groovetube

Peter Griffin coulda got them to concede.

It was shootin fish in a barrel. Still interested in how much they conceded (I haven't looked). Ford in general seems to be batting a zero in many places.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I was talking federally. Miller was just a mayor, there isn't much he is going to do about gun crime really, other than some PR moments.


This is a thread about Tranna politics and not fed politics.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Peter Griffin coulda got them to concede.
> 
> It was shootin fish in a barrel. Still interested in how much they conceded (I haven't looked). Ford in general seems to be batting a zero in many places.


'jobs for life' clause only applies to those with 15 years or more of seniority.

The last offer/counteroffer I saw was 22 years by the City and 5 years by the Union. 

That was the big concession that the City was trying to get.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> Went a-googling.... blog post one day into the last strike. Note the comments and how many of them had ZERO sympathy. Even those who were okay with the strike were pissed off at having listen to protests at the transfer stations delaying people getting rid of their garbage.
> Toronto Garbage Strike: Smells like Summer
> 
> They blew it under Miller. If they'd conceded then, they might have had some leverage now. Instead, they pissed off the public to such a point that they actually voted in Ford.


I'm hearing that the current coroner's inquest regarding the cardiac victim the paramedics refused to attend to until cops arrived has something to do with the union taking a more gentler approach.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> I'm hearing that the current coroner's inquest regarding the cardiac victim the paramedics refused to attend to until cops arrived has something to do with the union taking a more gentler approach.


Possibly. But I don't know how much that incident has filtered through to people's consciousness the way the stench of the garbage heaps has.

I have a friend who is a paramedic... they are pretty pissed off with the deal that CUPE 416 struck for them, even though they supposedly represent them.


----------



## Sonal

So are we all cool with Ford&Co moving to fire top TTC bureaucrat Gary Webster (among others) for doing his job and providing facts and stuff despite the so-called Mayoral mandate? A possible half-million dollar severance is respect for taxpayers, I guess?
Toronto News: James: Knives are out, and not just for Gary Webster - thestar.com
Toronto News: TTC transit chief Gary Webster may not be only one to lose job: Di Giorgio - thestar.com

If this goes through, I hope Metrolinx hires Gary Webster (and others) and puts him in charge of implementing Toronto's transit strategy. He certainly has relevant experience.


----------



## Lichen Software

It's not pretty, but in business it happens all the time. When the executive team is out of step with the board of director's vision, the executive team is replaced. That is exactly why there is so much severance involved. That is also the reason for the old saying, "The closer you are to the top, the closer you are to the door." It's true. You are watching a Toronto Sea Change.

Remember Lee Iaccocca: "Lead, follow or get out of the way." This is the 2012 version.



Sonal said:


> So are we all cool with Ford&Co moving to fire top TTC bureaucrat Gary Webster (among others) for doing his job and providing facts and stuff despite the so-called Mayoral mandate? A possible half-million dollar severance is respect for taxpayers, I guess?
> Toronto News: James: Knives are out, and not just for Gary Webster - thestar.com
> Toronto News: TTC transit chief Gary Webster may not be only one to lose job: Di Giorgio - thestar.com
> 
> If this goes through, I hope Metrolinx hires Gary Webster (and others) and puts him in charge of implementing Toronto's transit strategy. He certainly has relevant experience.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> So are we all cool with Ford&Co moving to fire top TTC bureaucrat Gary Webster (among others) for doing his job and providing facts and stuff despite the so-called Mayoral mandate? A possible half-million dollar severance is respect for taxpayers, I guess?
> Toronto News: James: Knives are out, and not just for Gary Webster - thestar.com
> Toronto News: TTC transit chief Gary Webster may not be only one to lose job: Di Giorgio - thestar.com
> 
> If this goes through, I hope Metrolinx hires Gary Webster (and others) and puts him in charge of implementing Toronto's transit strategy. He certainly has relevant experience.


Perhaps he's getting some pointers from his federal cousins on shuttin people the hell up.

I haven't been following this that closely. But it seems Ford has no problem blowing half a mil to shut someone up with too many facts, all I can say is, I hope it involves giving him some more rope as we approach the next election.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> So are we all cool with Ford&Co moving to fire top TTC bureaucrat Gary Webster (among others) for doing his job and providing facts and stuff despite the so-called Mayoral mandate? A possible half-million dollar severance is respect for taxpayers, I guess?
> Toronto News: James: Knives are out, and not just for Gary Webster - thestar.com
> Toronto News: TTC transit chief Gary Webster may not be only one to lose job: Di Giorgio - thestar.com
> 
> If this goes through, I hope Metrolinx hires Gary Webster (and others) and puts him in charge of implementing Toronto's transit strategy. He certainly has relevant experience.


This is another nail in the coffin of Broford. So utterly self serving. The backlash will long haunt them. Especially when the ill-effects of the firing become clear to the public.


----------



## Sonal

Lichen Software said:


> It's not pretty, but in business it happens all the time. When the executive team is out of step with the board of director's vision, the executive team is replaced. That is exactly why there is so much severance involved. That is also the reason for the old saying, "The closer you are to the top, the closer you are to the door." It's true. You are watching a Toronto Sea Change.
> 
> Remember Lee Iaccocca: "Lead, follow or get out of the way." This is the 2012 version.


In business sure. But I question the notion of running a government as a business.

But in any case, this is a situation where the Chairman of the Board (Mayor) is at odds with the Board (Council) and after the Board formally outvotes the Chairman he retaliates by replacing the executive team in order to impede the Board's decision. Huh? 

It would be different if the Board and Chairman were on one side, and the executive team was on another. That's not quite what's happening here.


----------



## mrjimmy

Shameful firing further alienates Mayor Ford - The Globe and Mail

Knee jerk reactions don't jive well with big picture thinking. 

This will be one large thread in Ford's unravelling.


----------



## groovetube

Half a million to fire someone without cause? This isn't going to look good in the end. So much for all that money he save in office expenses... now he'll start to blow it all in vanity moves.


----------



## Macfury

I could find plenty of cause to turf those TTC imbeciles. Good riddance.


----------



## groovetube

Let's hear them.


----------



## cap10subtext

Macfury said:


> I could find plenty of cause to turf those TTC imbeciles. Good riddance.


And even better one not to. Turf them before their contract is up and the get a hefty severance. Add another half a mill to the tax payers tab. Thanks, Ford.


----------



## groovetube

The right loves to trumpet respect for taxpayers dollars except when they don't like something. Then it's spare no (taxpayer's) expense!

I'm sure anyone can compile a list of errors on any human in that building if they wanted to. But what I'm interested in, is if there's items that warrant firing.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I could find plenty of cause to turf those TTC imbeciles. Good riddance.


Gary Webster was a highly regarded civil servant. It seems in this instance (in many actually), Ford and his cronies take the imbecile prize.


----------



## Lawrence

It's a plot by Mayor Ford, First knock them off balance and get them disorganized,
Then try to ruin all chances of them getting the 8.4 billion for Transit City.

Dumb part of this plan is that if Mayor Ford succeeds,
Then that doesn't mean that the Premiere will give him the money for subways.


----------



## groovetube

It seems what I predicted for Rob Ford, just just be another Ottawa's Larry O'brian is actually occurring.


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> I could find plenty of cause to turf those TTC imbeciles. Good riddance.


This from the man who couldn't wait until Ford got in power so he could wreck everything. _Hoo boy._

Watching the Fordmayors in action is like witnessing a spectacular train wreck. I'd make popcorn if the outcome wasn't so wretched.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> This from the man who couldn't wait until Ford got in power so he could wreck everything. _Hoo boy._
> 
> Watching the Fordmayors in action is like witnessing a spectacular train wreck. I'd make popcorn if the outcome wasn't so wretched.


Make the popcorn anyway, Max. We may as well enjoy this trip in this handbasket.

To me, the issue is not so much whether or not Gary Webster is competent--he certainly appears to be, however, and being the first Chief General Manager of the TTC that was promoted from within gives him some particularly domain-specific expertise that is useful as Toronto embarks on major transit projects. 

We can argue about whether or not TTC-specific experience is a good thing, but that decision was made, and his contract was expire in a little over one year anyway. If at the end of his contract it was believed that he was not up to the job, they could simply not renew him. To fire him now is (at best) very suspicious timing. 

To me, the crux of this issue is the Mayor takes it upon himself to fire city staff for not supporting his political agenda. How are we to expect staff to give honest recommendations to council if their jobs are on the line every time? There's always some degree of politics in being a top bureaucrat, but shouldn't council at least attempt to keep a line here?

Even Councillor John Parker, who has been voting with Ford very consistently, voted against firing Gary Webster for this exact reason. And frankly, the Mayor can't afford to alienate his allies.

Overall, it's just dumb. Spiteful and politically stupid.


----------



## i-rui

Sonal said:


> Overall, it's just dumb. Spiteful and politically stupid.


sounds like the dictionary definition of Rob Ford.


----------



## Max

Sonal said:


> Make the popcorn anyway, Max. We may as well enjoy this trip in this handbasket.


Howdy, Sonal. I guess the popcorn will be a nice contrast to the bitter pill our current mayor is trying to ram down our throats. Ford's bully-boy tactics and penchant for behind-the-scenes deals flies in the face of earlier stages in his political career, when he made pious calls for greater government accountability and transparency. His massive hypocrisy is astounding. But the man's continued deeds and words are simply digging him further into a morass. What a small-minded man to lead this city. You couldn't make this stuff up.

My only consolation is that, slowly but surely, the man is losing his political allies. I am hoping he will render himself more or less impotent. Only then will the city be able to begin licking its wounds and getting on with proper business.

Ergo, rock on, Mr. Ford! Keep up the good work.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Howdy, Sonal. I guess the popcorn will be a nice contrast to the bitter pill our current mayor is trying to ram down our throats. Ford's bully-boy tactics and penchant for behind-the-scenes deals flies in the face of earlier stages in his political career, when he made pious calls for greater government accountability and transparency. His massive hypocrisy is astounding. But the man's continued deeds and words are simply digging him further into a morass. What a small-minded man to lead this city. You couldn't make this stuff up.
> 
> My only consolation is that, slowly but surely, the man is losing his political allies. I am hoping he will render himself more or less impotent. Only then will the city be able to begin licking its wounds and getting on with proper business.
> 
> Ergo, rock on, Mr. Ford! Keep up the good work.


I gave up cable--municipal politics is now my absolute favourite soap opera. The fact that it's all so real is what makes the drama so gripping. 

My other consolation is that council is waking up and realizing that we have a weak mayoral system, and that they can vote independently of the mayor. Plus--under Mayor Ford, more people (I'm one of them) are paying attention to municipal politics than ever before. I hardly have named my own councillor a few years ago.

There is hope for democracy yet.


----------



## Macfury

Goodbye Transit City!


----------



## groovetube

You're right, and I'm glad to se it. Hopefully if people are a little more engaged less will fall for the "no gravy train not gonna take it! chants and look a little closer at the candidates.


----------



## Max

Sonal said:


> I gave up cable--municipal politics is now my absolute favourite soap opera. The fact that it's all so real is what makes the drama so gripping.
> 
> My other consolation is that council is waking up and realizing that we have a weak mayoral system, and that they can vote independently of the mayor. Plus--under Mayor Ford, more people (I'm one of them) are paying attention to municipal politics than ever before. I hardly have named my own councillor a few years ago.
> 
> There is hope for democracy yet.


I think you're right. Certainly I'm following municipal politics a lot more than I used to. But I think it also coincides with being a home-owner and taxpayer.

The weak mayor system is something I feel a bit more ambivalent about. In this case I think it's great... if Ford can be somewhat hobbled or his worst inclinations neutered, I'm all for it. I shudder to think what the man would do otherwise. But on the other hand, if we had a strong mayor system and Ford wasn't the man at the top of the food chain, we might get some things done around the joint.

But in the end, I'd rather the mayor not be able to act unilaterally (although Ford is still behaving as if he's the only show in town).


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> I think you're right. Certainly I'm following municipal politics a lot more than I used to. But I think it also coincides with being a home-owner and taxpayer.
> 
> The weak mayor system is something I feel a bit more ambivalent about. In this case I think it's great... if Ford can be somewhat hobbled or his worst inclinations neutered, I'm all for it. I shudder to think what the man would do otherwise. But on the other hand, if we had a strong mayor system and Ford wasn't the man at the top of the food chain, we might get some things done around the joint.
> 
> But in the end, I'd rather the mayor not be able to act unilaterally (although Ford is still behaving as if he's the only show in town).


For me, it's more the drama. But for a 2 year break, I've been a homeowner and taxpayer for the past 10 years. If anything, it coincides with my signing up for Twitter. 

I'm not sure how I feel about the weak mayor system, since certainly if I had a mayor I liked more, I'd want that mayor to push through every policy I thought worthwhile. And even though I do not like Ford, I can't see help but see how the Mayor and the council battling it out time and time again with special meetings and such simply wastes a lot of time--even if it's bringing things closer to what I would like to see. 

I have a hunch that while popular support is largely with council and against the Mayor, if we end up with a constant back-and-forth, support is going to go against all of them. As entertaining as the infighting is, ultimately, people prefer to see things get done.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> For me, it's more the drama. But for a 2 year break, I've been a homeowner and taxpayer for the past 10 years. If anything, it coincides with my signing up for Twitter.
> 
> I'm not sure how I feel about the weak mayor system, since certainly if I had a mayor I liked more, I'd want that mayor to push through every policy I thought worthwhile. And even though I do not like Ford, I can't see help but see how the Mayor and the council battling it out time and time again with special meetings and such simply wastes a lot of time--even if it's bringing things closer to what I would like to see.
> 
> I have a hunch that while popular support is largely with council and against the Mayor, if we end up with a constant back-and-forth, support is going to go against all of them. As entertaining as the infighting is, *ultimately, people prefer to see things get done.*


As I mentioned before, the case is similar to Larry O'Brien of Ottawa. Similar sort of thing, he cancelled a transit plan, had big grandiose plans, in the end, it was 4 years of inaction, and the money savings weren't worth the paper he wrote the promises on (actually I think he made a bit of a mess.)

I am glad that he is hobbled. Max you did predict this before, when I was not happy about the election results. You were right.


----------



## Max

Agreed. This is the weakness of the weak mayor system... council and Mayor can dither over stuff 'till the cows come home and it makes for tough slogging in terms of achieving actual progress as far as running the city goes... and city-building, for that matter.

For the same reasons I am against making it too easy to depose/impeach our leaders - whether that be on a municipal, provincial or federal level. The more time the populace rejects its leaders, the more time we waste not deciding on and implementing decisions which can directly impact our lives. It's all too easy to get very infantile about this stuff and begin to habitually reject anything or anyone we don't like.

Like you, I would applaud a strong mayor system only during such times as I happened to agree with any given mayor's vision for the city. The rest of the time you'd simply have to grit your teeth and suck it up.


----------



## Sonal

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/22/hefty-severance-for-ex-ttc-honcho

No thought. No planning. Just reaction. And as a consequence, we're paying Gary Webster for an additional 8 months to do nothing, and we still have to hire a new CGM.


----------



## groovetube

fellahs, it's too rough to feed ya...

I think in the next verse it was 'fellahs, it's been good, to know ya'.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Max

Great tune. The Rheostatics used to do a lively cover of that one. I'm thinking of a memorable version at the Albion Hotel in Guelph, back around 1990. I still prefer the original, of course.

____________________________

The battle continues. Both sides are sharpening their knives and further showdowns between council and Hizzoner the mayor are coming down the road. The latest 'hurricane west wind' arrives in early March.

Sonal is right; this is gripping stuff.


----------



## Macfury

The Dandy Warhols did a real oddball rendition.


----------



## Sonal

Toronto Public Library union requests 'no board' report | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

I have a hunch that library workers are riding high on the library love-fest Torontonians gave them this year. They may be misreading the situation. We like our libraries open. Anyone who closes them, for whatever reason, is probably going to be branded the enemy.


----------



## Max

Yep. Torontonians are getting mighty fed up over labour disputes. What measure of good will which was extended to library staffers (by a rallying public when the FordMayors were on a mission to torpedo book-learnin') is in real danger of being squandered by the threat of staffers going on strike.


----------



## groovetube

That would be a win for Ford.


----------



## Max

Certainly it wouldn't hurt him, would it?


----------



## groovetube

CP24- Ford: McGuinty faces 'political suicide' over subways

OMG. Ford states that if McGuinty doesn't support his subway boondoogle, it'll mean political suicide for McGuinty.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> CP24- Ford: McGuinty faces 'political suicide' over subways
> 
> OMG. Ford states that if McGuinty doesn't support his subway boondoogle, it'll mean political suicide for McGuinty.


He'll unleash Ford Nation™ on him! Oh wait...


----------



## groovetube

After meeting developers, Ford claims unanimous support for subways - The Globe and Mail

This just makes me laugh. Real hard.

Get ready for plenty of tax grabs, levies, etc., while Ford desperately makes us all pay for his boondoggle.

Respect for reaching deep into our backpockets.


----------



## i-rui

> It remains unclear how Mr. Ford intends to finance his subway plan without relying on road tolls and other new sources of revenue that he has adamantly opposed in the past. Several councillors confirmed that in private meetings the mayor has even floated the option of bringing back the vehicle-registration tax – and jacking up the annual fee to between $80 and $100 from the $60 charge that was killed last year.
> 
> Councillor Mary-Margaret McMahon said Mr. Ford mentioned a VRT of between $80 and $100 as he ticked off a list of possible revenue tools, including road tolls and parking levies, during a meeting last week with her and fellow centrist councillor Ana Bailao.


looks like the war on the car is back *on*!


----------



## groovetube

Even more so if they bring it back and actually raise it.

Priceless...


----------



## Macfury

So far, I've been perfectly happy with things. He's tried to cut budgets, but the lefty weasels in Council won't pass those cuts. But if he brings back and raises a car levy, then the war on Mayor Ford would be waged from this base.


----------



## groovetube

Interesting. All the bluster and hot air, the ridiculous stumbling, billion(s) dollar boondoggles, but hey, if he brings that 60/year VRT back, it's war.

It's incredible how the right sees things. But oh yeah, the lefty weasels!

It's sort of like the federal thing. All the huge wasteful spending could continue til the end of time. Defence after defence because, well, they killed the gun registry!

And some are annoyed by my "shiny ball" comments. 

Hah.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> And some are annoyed by my "shiny ball" comments.
> 
> Hah.


It's more sad than annoying.


----------



## groovetube

All that matters is it riles you.

That's enough!


----------



## groovetube

CP24 Mobile

This is an odd piece of news.


----------



## Sonal

Paul Madger is the same guy who fought the government (and lost) for the right to open his fur store on Sundays, decades before Sunday Shopping was lawful. Toronto News: Fur flew, but the furrier stood firm - thestar.com

I have a hunch that his lawsuit against Ford isn't going anywhere.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Paul Madger is the same guy who fought the government (and lost) for the right to open his fur store on Sundays, decades before Sunday Shopping was lawful.


I remember him. Drove around in a big purple 1950s boat.


----------



## groovetube

ah, it's been updated as to who the homeowner was.

I remember well Paul madger and his epic fight for sunday shopping. His long time shop finally closed a little while ago, I used to bump into him often on spadina since my studio was a couple doors down.


----------



## Sonal

Just saw on Twitter that it's actually a different Paul Madger.... no relation to the furrier. So um, nevermind what I said before.

https://twitter.com/#!/reporterdonpeat/status/179207575429062656

I still have a hunch this isn't going anywhere, though I'll be in a meeting during the press conference... will have to catch up afterward.


----------



## Sonal

Toronto News: Could Mayor Rob Ford be removed from office over a conflict of interest? - thestar.com

Actually, it may not be so useless.... but we shall see.


----------



## groovetube

> According to Ruby, if the judge does not accept Ford’s explanation, removal from office is mandatory. From there, the judge has discretion whether to ban Ford from running for office again and for how many years.


wow. Now wouldn't that be a super early xmas present!


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> wow. Now wouldn't that be a super early xmas present!


There's some commentary out there that this may not be a great idea. Ford does the "everyone is against me" thing very well. Losing his position due to a technicality over a donation to a charity is going to play into that nicely. 

And if the recent transit meeting in Scarborough is any indication, he still has a lot of very vocal supporters.


----------



## groovetube

removed from office, and banned for years from even running?

I'm totally on board with this.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> removed from office, and banned for years from even running?
> 
> I'm totally on board with this.


What stops Doug from running in his stead? Nada. SSDD.


----------



## groovetube

perhaps, but I see it as one down, one to go. But if Robbie goes down on this, it'll make it harder for 'dougie' to get past just the fist pumping fools that love the ford's after the last year.

All that's needed, is a good strong candidate that whispers sweet nothings in the ears of those conservatives. They seem to like that. John Tory could pull it off.


----------



## Sonal

It won't make it harder for Doug.... it makes it easier for him to play into the whole "the lefties are out to get me!" rhetoric. ("Oh, the things my brother could have done if only those union-pal lefties hadn't used a technicality to force him out of office.... elect me, and I'll carry on for him!") The Ford brothers may not know how to run a city, but their weaknesses in governance are their strengths in campaigning. 

I don't think John Tory will run. He opted out in 2010. I doubt he's going to pick it up in 2012. But without knowing who'd run for Mayor against Ford, I'm not so sure that Doug Ford would not be elected in Rob's place--assuming Rob is barred from re-running.


----------



## groovetube

anything is possible, though, only his most fervent of supporters would really see this as a 'technicality'. There was a strong desire in the city to elect a 'stop the gravy train' mayor, and now that we've seen what that actually means, and if they can make the 'technicality' as an example of what a liar he really is, then, I can't see either them getting the level of support they got last year.

But it does, really depend on who runs.


----------



## Macfury

John Tory--a cold potato. I wouldn't vote for him unless Miller were running again.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> anything is possible, though, only his most fervent of supporters would really see this as a 'technicality'. There was a strong desire in the city to elect a 'stop the gravy train' mayor, and now that we've seen what that actually means, and if they can make the 'technicality' as an example of what a liar he really is, then, I can't see either them getting the level of support they got last year.
> 
> But it does, really depend on who runs.


Same level of support, no. He's definitely lost a chunk of voters. But his supporters are loyal and loud, and take his words as gospel. For an example:
At Scarborough Civic Centre, a subway vs. LRT debate goes off the rails | OpenFile 

Depends on who goes up in opposition. Karen Stintz could possibly win it, especially now, but she's been pretty clear in saying she's not running in the next election... that may be entirely political, but for the moment I'd take her statement at face value. (And if she runs, the whole election will turn into a transit vote.)


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> John Tory--a cold potato. I wouldn't vote for him unless Miller were running again.


I tend to agree about John Tory being a cold potato. He's been out of politics too long... I think his political capital has been spent. 

I wonder sometimes about Glen Murray (former Mayor of Winnepeg, took over Smitherman's spot provincially) dropping out provincially and running for Mayor of Toronto. Hard to say which way he will go: trying to move up the ladder provincially, or dropping out of that to try to take on Toronto. 

I also like Shelley Carroll for Mayor. Not sure if she's well-known enough, or has the campaigning strength to do it though.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I tend to agree about John Tory being a cold potato. He's been out of politics too long... I think his political capital has been spent.


I've had the misfortune to hear him dithering on his radio program. I don;t want that sort of ambiguity in office.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I've had the misfortune to hear him dithering on his radio program. I don;t want that sort of ambiguity in office.


I've heard him many times on the radio--one of my co-workers insists on keeping talk radio on all day. (Fortunately, she's only part-time now.) He's fine on the radio, in that I can easily tune him out.


----------



## groovetube

yeah john tory needs a winning slogan... like i donno, 'stop the gravy' or, something, like that. And just repeat whenever necessary.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> yeah john tory needs a winning slogan... like i donno, 'stop the gravy' or, something, like that. And just repeat whenever necessary.


It's a secret to a good campaign. I don't even remember what Smitherman's campaign was.... 

Sure, campaigning and governing are two different skills. But you don't get to do one without the other.


----------



## groovetube

smitherman was a mess. Not to mention the large amount of baggage (e-health etc.) he was carrying around with him. Yet despite all that, and ford's advantage of tapping into the desire for more restraint in city hall at the time, smitherman's numbers were still, surprisingly good.

This is why I would wonder about ford's success (either) should there be even a relatively sane desirable candidate.

Doug ford is currently bragging about his kick boxing skills and how he woulda kicked some courier's arse. His problem is, like his brother, he has too big a mouth.


----------



## Sonal

I live deep in the heart of Smitherman country (in fact, he was my MPP before giving up his seat to run for Mayor) and work in Ford Nation. A lot of Smitherman voters took his win as a given--it simply did not occur to them that there was any other viable candidate. E-Health gets hardly a mention. And down in Smitherman country, Rob Ford's history of ignorant, racist and homophobic statements was well-known.

Contrast that to Ford Nation, where they knew all about eHealth and nothing about Ford's big mouth. 

We truly do have a cultural urban/suburban divide in Toronto. It's going to be some time before we have a candidate who's able to bridge that.


----------



## groovetube

Ford urged to consider tax hike to pay for subway | CTV Toronto

ah, where Ford (and his supporters it seems...) are finding out that doing budgets on a napkin isn't such a great idea afterall.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> We truly do have a cultural urban/suburban divide in Toronto. It's going to be some time before we have a candidate who's able to bridge that.


David Miller was also not that man.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> David Miller was also not that man.


No, he was not.

I do think TransitCity is a good plan, and that it benefits the inner suburbs very well. But Miller and Giambrone did an pisspoor job of selling it outside of the downtown core. We might be in a better place, transit-wise, if this had been handled better.

Mind you, I don't think Miller anticipated and his successor would unilaterally cancel the whole thing on the first day....


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I do think TransitCity is a good plan, and that it benefits the inner suburbs very well. But Miller and Giambrone did an pisspoor job of selling it outside of the downtown core. We might be in a better place, transit-wise, if this had been handled better.


It's because Miller didn't care about the rest of the city. He was more interested in plastic bags and unions than Etobicoke.



Sonal said:


> Mind you, I don't think Miller anticipated and his successor would unilaterally cancel the whole thing on the first day....


I'd have loved to see Miller's face at that moment!


----------



## groovetube

one extreme to the other?

Great news for the city in general.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I'd have loved to see Miller's face at that moment!


It's the same look Ford has had in all his successive failures since then.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> It's the same look Ford has had in all his successive failures since then.


Right, but I would have liked to see it on David Miller's face--because I hated Miller.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Right, but I would have liked to see it on David Miller's face--because I hated Miller.


Sad to hate a politician. You should go for more walks. It might cheer you up.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Right, but I would have liked to see it on David Miller's face--because I hated Miller.


I'll bet the look was similar to when McGuinty double crossed him....:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Bu-bu-but Miller!

Miller Miller Miller!


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Bu-bu-but Miller!
> 
> Miller Miller Miller!


Your needle is stuck...


----------



## groovetube

yes it does seem that the needle is stuck, thank you!


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Sad to hate a politician. You should go for more walks. It might cheer you up.


Never heard of multi-tasking? 

Miller's policies made life personally difficult for me. It wasn't just a general sense of malaise emanating from him.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Never heard of multi-tasking?
> 
> Miller's policies made life personally difficult for me. It wasn't just a general sense of malaise emanating from him.


Multi-tasking... you can hate and post in internet forums at the same time!

If you think Miller's policies made life difficult, just wait until the mayor elect reneges on all that he has promised. Taxes, road tolls, user fees of all stripes. It will leave us looking desperately for that broom of Miller's. Although, the courts might make a clean sweep first.


----------



## mrjimmy

Toronto News: Library strike a messy dilemma for Mayor Rob Ford and negotiators - thestar.com



> The Fords risk appearing like book-hating simpletons carrying out a vendetta.


Appearing?


----------



## Sonal

The strike is a bad move for the library workers. Toronto's love of libraries does not necessarily extend to library unions, and in time this will squander all that goodwill they stirred up--that'll be bad for them come budget time.

If they can make a deal within a week or so, I don't think it will damage them much, but if it goes on, this will not be good for them.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The strike is a bad move for the library workers. Toronto's love of libraries does not necessarily extend to library unions, and in time this will squander all that goodwill they stirred up--that'll be bad for them come budget time.
> 
> If they can make a deal within a week or so, I don't think it will damage them much, but if it goes on, this will not be good for them.


 I agree. This plays right into Ford''s hands--particularly that the major sticking point is "job security" a luxury reserved only for golden municipal workers.


----------



## mrjimmy

Play right into Ford's hands - what a laugh. Ford has a backlog of bad a mile long. It will take a lot more than libraries being temporarily shut down -_after March break_- for a meaningful reversal of fortune.

Toronto voters know that library workers aren't _the gravy._


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> Play right into Ford's hands - what a laugh. Ford has a backlog of bad a mile long. It will take a lot more than libraries being temporarily shut down -_after March break_- for a meaningful reversal of fortune.
> 
> Toronto voters know that library workers aren't _the gravy._


I disagree with you. I think there's a strong feeling in Toronto that union salaries and benefits ARE gravy. We want our libraries open, yes, but I don't think the majority of voters cares much who staffs them. 

There is no way that the next budget will not come with more cuts. This plays into Ford's hands in that if the strike goes on for some length of time, the TPL will lose some support, making it easier to insist on cuts to their budget.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> I disagree with you. I think there's a strong feeling in Toronto that union salaries and benefits ARE gravy. We want our libraries open, yes, but I don't think the majority of voters cares much who staffs them.
> 
> There is no way that the next budget will not come with more cuts. This plays into Ford's hands in that if the strike goes on for some length of time, the TPL will lose some support, making it easier to insist on cuts to their budget.


Are you suggesting a better strategy for Library workers would be to accept whatever the city has to offer in terms of a contract? Seems like they are in a bit of a lose-lose situation then. 

No one thinks labour action is a good thing, just at times, a necessary thing.

Ford is in a hole. Forcing the library workers out on strike may be some strategist's solution to this but as with all things Ford, it will backfire. Time will tell.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> I disagree with you. I think there's a strong feeling in Toronto that union salaries and benefits ARE gravy. We want our libraries open, yes, but I don't think the majority of voters cares much who staffs them.
> 
> There is no way that the next budget will not come with more cuts. This plays into Ford's hands in that if the strike goes on for some length of time, the TPL will lose some support, making it easier to insist on cuts to their budget.


How poorly treated should the library's employees experience before the public would sympathize with their lot? 

Is it reasonable for workers to fall to that level before taking action to remedy their lot in life?


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> Are you suggesting a better strategy for Library workers would be to accept whatever the city has to offer in terms of a contract? Seems like they are in a bit of a lose-lose situation then.
> 
> No one thinks labour action is a good thing, just at times, a necessary thing.
> 
> Ford is in a hole. Forcing the library workers out on strike may be some strategist's solution to this but as with all things Ford, it will backfire.


As there's been little solid information from either side as to what the contract terms currently are, or what's been proposed, I'm in no position to judge whether they should take the terms or not. 

But since the issue of job security keeps coming up, I do think there is very little sympathy in the general public for protecting this, since that majority of us are non-union workers who have little to no expectation of job security. Consequently, any labour action by a public sector union, which inconveniences the public, to protect a benefit that the majority of the public does not have, is going to result in a loss of support in the public's eye for that union. 

Public sector unions have to manage how they appear carefully, because ultimately it's the voters who influence this the most, at least in the long run. (Hey, we elected a union-hating mayor, and Miller lost a heck of a lot of support over how he handled the garbage strike.) That they want to fight for this is understandable, but they should understand that this fight--if it goes on long enough--will cost them.

The library workers have, in my opinion, misjudged support for the library as support for the workers, and that will not serve them well. Whether or not this improves things for Ford is not really the issue here--it's what is going to happen at the next budget when Ford wants to cut the library's budget again. You **** off the public enough now, and there will not be the same kind of mass outpouring of support come budget time. 

There's still time to recover from this, but I think they've shot themselves in the foot.


----------



## Sonal

BigDL said:


> How poorly treated should the library's employees experience before the public would sympathize with their lot?
> 
> Is it reasonable for workers to fall to that level before taking action to remedy their lot in life?


The public first needs to believe that they ARE poorly treated. 

Right now, the perception is that any City union employee is comparatively well-treated in terms of their pay, benefits and job security. If they want to use the public's ire to advance their cause by going on strike, they need to at least understand and work with the prevailing perceptions so that this ire does not get turned back on them.

Workers can do whatever they want to take action to remedy their lot, but they also need to understand that in a public sector union, the union vs. management fight does not exist in a vacuum. They need to ask themselves if this is the hill they want to die on. 

Certainly, I think the outside workers may regret striking over banked sick days, when that hurt them badly in the most recent set of negotiations.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Public sector unions have to manage how they appear carefully, because ultimately it's the voters who influence this the most, at least in the long run.


Agreed. Although, this shouldn't dissuade them from labour action if they are dealing with an unreasonable employer.



Sonal said:


> The library workers have, in my opinion, misjudged support for the library as support for the workers


That's very difficult to determine. 

Margaret Atwood or no Margaret Atwood, I believe they would have voted this current offer down. To suggest that they are choosing to strike based on their current popular standing would suggest they are simply taking an opportunistic stance, which I believe unfairly diminishes their credibility.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Toronto voters know that library workers aren't _the gravy._


They actually are part of the gravy and many Toronto voters know it.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> They actually are part of the gravy and many Toronto voters know it.


Toronto voters don't believe in gravy. This is evidenced in Ford's approval rating.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> That's very difficult to determine.
> 
> Margaret Atwood or no Margaret Atwood, I believe they would have voted this current offer down. To suggest that they are choosing to strike based on their current popular standing would suggest they are simply taking an opportunistic stance, which I believe unfairly diminishes their credibility.


Perhaps. But I'm not the only person who sees it this way. While this is the first strike since amalgamation for the library workers union, they seem to be taking on all the baggage generated by their city-union brethren. This may be unfair, but it's still a perception they need to manage better. 

Marcus Gee does a good job of showing where the library workers' union is going wrong in their rhetoric.
Fearful librarians and vague officials a recipe for unrest - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Toronto voters don't believe in gravy. This is evidenced in Ford's approval rating.


They believe in gravy, but aren't impressed with Ford's ability to eliminate it.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> They believe in gravy, but aren't impressed with Ford's ability to eliminate it.


Or his inability to discover it...


----------



## Macfury

Plenty was discovered, but loud hollering circumvented stemming the gravy flow.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Plenty was discovered, but loud hollering circumvented stemming the gravy flow.


Nonsense.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Nonsense.


One man's public sector sweet cream is another man's gravy. You simply see it as the normal cost of doing civic business.


----------



## Sonal

Mayor Ford's hunt for gravy was a shallow search. You can't just look at the pot and see if it's labelled 'gravy' or not... you actually need to look inside.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Mayor Ford's hunt for gravy was a shallow search. You can't just look at the pot and see if it's labelled 'gravy' or not... you actually need to look inside.


There's far more gravy to root out--he just went for the easy stuff. The "Economic Development" department wastes millions in attempting to bribe companies to locate here.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Are you suggesting a better strategy for Library workers would be to accept whatever the city has to offer in terms of a contract? Seems like they are in a bit of a lose-lose situation then.
> 
> No one thinks labour action is a good thing, just at times, a necessary thing.
> 
> Ford is in a hole. Forcing the library workers out on strike may be some strategist's solution to this but as with all things Ford, it will backfire. Time will tell.


The union may have to play their one real "ace in the hole" -- Leonard Cohen. We shall see.

Leonard Cohen - Solidarity Forever (The Union Makes Us Strong) - YouTube


Still, it is sad to see any library, just like any school, closed due to a labor dispute.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> There's far more gravy to root out--he just went for the easy stuff. The "Economic Development" department wastes millions in attempting to bribe companies to locate here.


I wouldn't count on him looking at the hard stuff.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> Still, it is sad to see any library, just like any school, closed due to a labor dispute.


The Adult Literacy program is also closed as a consequence, since we use library space to run the program. I hope they were able to tell all the learners.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> The Adult Literacy program is also closed as a consequence, since we use library space to run the program. I hope they were able to tell all the learners.


Sorry to hear this, Sonal. The adult literacy program for which I volunteer works out of the Association of New Canadians office.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> One man's public sector sweet cream is another man's gravy. You simply see it as the normal cost of doing civic business.


One man's core service is another man's gravy.

Ford platformed on gravy and the core service's review found none. Or to be fair, _little. _Time to reframe the debate.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> One man's core service is another man's gravy.
> 
> Ford platformed on gravy and the core service's review found none. Or to be fair, _little. _Time to reframe the debate.


The core services review was a shoddy look at the City's expenses. It only examined what services we must provide, and not whether those services can be provided in a more cost-effective way.

The gravy that most Ford voters that I know expected him to find was in a) union salaries and benefits and b) services that could be provided in a more cost-efficient manner.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> The core services review was a shoddy look at the City's expenses. It only examined what services we must provide, and not whether those services can be provided in a more cost-effective way.
> 
> The gravy that most Ford voters that I know expected him to find was in a) union salaries and benefits and b) services that could be provided in a more cost-efficient manner.


Shoddy or not, it was but the beginning of his undoing. 

Funny, I don't know may Ford voters anymore. The embarrassment that is RF knows no bounds.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> Shoddy or not, it was but the beginning of his undoing.
> 
> Funny, I don't know may Ford voters anymore. The embarrassment that is RF knows no bounds.


In the office, I stand on the thin moral high ground of having not voted for Ford. 

Mind you, my coworker from Scarborough thinks they should leave the poor guy alone so that he can actually get stuff done. 

He's lost popularity, for sure, but he's not nearly so unpopular as you might think.

And... he's got 2.5 years left. A lot can happen in that time.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> He's lost popularity, for sure, but he's not nearly so unpopular as you might think.
> 
> And... he's got 2.5 years left. A lot can happen in that time.


I wouldn't trade Miller back for Ford, that's for sure.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I wouldn't trade Miller back for Ford, that's for sure.


Fortunately for you, I don't think Miller's planning on running in 2014.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I wouldn't trade Miller back for Ford, that's for sure.


Nor would I.

Back to the loser that is our current mayor:

Toronto News: Mayor Rob Ford?s subway plan suffers setback - thestar.com


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> Nor would I.
> 
> Back to the loser that is our current mayor:
> 
> Toronto News: Mayor Rob Ford?s subway plan suffers setback - thestar.com


Here's Moeser's letter
A letter supporting LRTs from Scarborough East Ward 44 Councillor Ron Moeser » » Karen Stintz


----------



## groovetube

why are we bringing up Miller when afaik he is not running now or in the future?


----------



## Max

Were it a contest between Miller and Rob Ford, I would vote for Miller - especially given the track record of the current mayor. Ford makes Miller look like a genius - quite the feat, considering.

But all the same, I'm glad Miller's not coming back. Time to move on and get new blood in there. Now if only Ford would stop making such a stupendously pigheaded spectacle of himself and simply step down. Fat chance!


----------



## groovetube

Agreed.

It's really too bad that responsible management of our budget and services for the city had to come in the form of a complete doofus.


----------



## Max

I was thinking "giant goof," but "complete doofus" will do nicely.

I stand in awe of Rob Ford's mastery of thick obstreperousness. But credit is also due to the other FordMayor, Doug. Together, they are truly a wonder.


----------



## Dr.G.

How is Mayor Ford's diet coming along these days? I am really curious, in that I too am trying to lose weight, so I am not asking this as an insult to Mayor Ford.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> How is Mayor Ford's diet coming along these days? I am really curious, in that I too am trying to lose weight, so I am not asking this as an insult to Mayor Ford.


He's lost 22 lbs. He plateau'd for a while though.

.: Cut The Waist Challenge :.


----------



## Macfury

Even if Ford winds up doing absolutely nothing, I will be grateful. No new spending intiatives are what I'm hoping for.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> He's lost 22 lbs. He plateau'd for a while though.
> 
> .: Cut The Waist Challenge :.


Wow. Far more than me. Good for him.


----------



## groovetube

*cough* subways *cough*

Ford reportedly considering property tax hike to pay for Sheppard subway - CityNews


----------



## Max

Can't wait until tomorrow's decision. Ford will doubtless be offering more choice soundbites. Looked at from a certain angle, he is the best thing that's happened to Toronto in many years. That's about as charitable as I can get at the moment.


----------



## Lawrence

Just glad I'm not studying for my final exams right now with all the libraries closed,
You can bet the university and college students are going start voicing an outcry pretty soon.


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> Just glad I'm not studying for my final exams right now with all the libraries closed,
> You can bet the university and college students are going start voicing an outcry pretty soon.


What, Robart's doesn't cut it?

Nor any of these?
List of libraries | University of Toronto Libraries
Ryerson University Library and Archives
York University Libraries
Home - GBC Library Learning Commons
Humber Libraries
Seneca Libraries
Centennial College Libraries
Dorothy H. Hoover Library


----------



## groovetube

Would you personally pay $1,210 to build the Sheppard subway? | The Grid TO



> Option A (“Transit City”): $0 per person, $0 total for the Keenan family.
> Option B (“Ford Plan”): $1,209.68 per person, $6,048.35 for the Keenan family.
> Option C (“Ford Plan, Pasternak Deluxe”): $1,806.45 per person, $9,032.25 for the Keenan family.
> Option D (“Mammo Proposition”): $5,354.84 per person, $26,774.20 for the Keenan family.


Didn't I hear some furious hand waving about how Ford was only raising property taxes to the rate of inflation?

It's funny, whenever you hear conservatives yelling about fiscal conservatism, it generally means the opposite.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Would you personally pay $1,210 to build the Sheppard subway? | The Grid TO
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't I hear some furious hand waving about how Ford was only raising property taxes to the rate of inflation?
> 
> It's funny, whenever you hear conservatives yelling about fiscal conservatism, it generally means the opposite.


Nice. Official figures directly from the Kennan family. You must have friends in high places.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Nice. Official figures directly from the Kennan family. You must have friends in high places.


A head in the sand comment if there ever was one.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Nice. Official figures directly from the Kennan family. You must have friends in high places.


Hey, he's retweeted me. We're pals.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> A head in the sand comment if there ever was one.


Those are Keenan's own numbers and don't represent all of the options.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Those are Keenan's own numbers and don't represent all of the options.


Including that "Do nothing and let's not spend tax dollars" option?


----------



## groovetube

ha ha. Squirming at it's best.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Including that "Do nothing and let's not spend tax dollars" option?


Yes.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Yes.


Progress!


----------



## Macfury

To reiterate: Even including the do-nothing option, the list of options is not complete.


----------



## groovetube

Well let's hear it. Enough furtive glances and winking.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> To reiterate: Even including the do-nothing option, the list of options is not complete.


Please enlighten us!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Well let's hear it. Enough furtive glances and winking.


Winks and glances from you are hardly an encouragement to write a full essay on the topic.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Well let's hear it. Enough furtive glances and winking.


At this point, does it matter?

Council has voted for the Eglinton LRT to go above ground east of Laird, for the Finch LRT, and to replace the decrepit SRT with LRT. 

At this point, the question left is Sheppard East--LRT, subway or both and in the case of the latter two, how to fund it.


----------



## groovetube

no, but I wanted the entertainment anyway


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> At this point, does it matter?
> 
> Council has voted for the Eglinton LRT to go above ground east of Laird, for the Finch LRT, and to replace the decrepit SRT with LRT.
> 
> At this point, the question left is Sheppard East--LRT, subway or both and in the case of the latter two, how to fund it.


Personally, I would use the available funds to build one Sheppard subway stop, then spend the rest on however far the LRT can go.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Personally, I would use the available funds to build one Sheppard subway stop, then spend the rest on however far the LRT can go.


A version of that has been proposed (well, 2 stops: Consumer's Road and Vic Park, I think, and then LRT) and will hopefully be debated today, though as it stands, it would require the city to raise some money through taxation. If I recall, building the two stops leaves pretty much nothing left for LRT to go further into Scarborough.... need to re-check the numbers.

The Mayor's been stubbornly against this compromise, which is to his detriment.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The Mayor's been stubbornly against this compromise, which is to his detriment.


Agreed. But subways still make the most sense as a permanent form of transportation in a city beset by snow half the year. Slow but sure progress here is welcome to me.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Agreed. But subways still make the most sense as a permanent form of transportation in a city beset by snow half the year. Slow but sure progress here is welcome to me.


LRT has been successfully implemented in cities beset by snow.

One of the issues with subways is that they are more expensive to operate--if there is not enough ridership (and it will be decades before there is), we will have to subsidize the operating cost of the subway for a very long time.... as we currently do with the Sheppard line.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> LRT has been successfully implemented in cities beset by snow.
> 
> One of the issues with subways is that they are more expensive to operate--if there is not enough ridership (and it will be decades before there is), we will have to subsidize the operating cost of the subway for a very long time.... as we currently do with the Sheppard line.


Of course, I would privatize the whole mess anyway, so my opinion on how available public transit dollars should be spent is probably redundant. There shouldn't be one service price for the entire city. If you live in the sparsely populated boonies, you should pay more for a bus ride than someone living in the core.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Of course, I would privatize the whole mess anyway, so my opinion on how available public transit dollars should be spent is probably redundant. There shouldn't be one service price for the entire city. If you live in the sparsely populated boonies, you should pay more for a bus ride than someone living in the core.


Good luck selling that plan in Scarborough.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Good luck selling that plan in Scarborough.



They should just just dig a ditch along Victoria Park Avenue, and fill it with alligators.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> They should just just dig a ditch along Victoria Park Avenue, and fill it with alligators.


:lmao:

Memo to Mayor Ford --
When you are up to your ass in alligators, it is difficult to remember your original mission was to drain the swamp. ... If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> They should just just dig a ditch along Victoria Park Avenue, and fill it with alligators.


That could get awkward when they get down into the Beaches.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> That could get awkward when they get down into the Beaches.


Cut back east when you hit Kingston Road. Upper Beaches me arse I say!


----------



## groovetube

privatize! Privatize PRIVATIIIIIIIIZE!!!!!

I just loooove it. :baby:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Cut back east when you hit Kingston Road. Upper Beaches me arse I say!


Yep. There's that li'l chunk worth saving from the gators to around Fallingbrook.


----------



## Sonal

I have a soft-spot for Scarborough.... I was born there. It's not so bad.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I have a soft-spot for Scarborough.... I was born there. It's not so bad.


I lived the dream for several years. It's so bad.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I lived the dream for several years. It's so bad.


Well, it's definitely not for everyone. 

My ex-in-laws lived in Malvern for quite a while before moving on up to Woburn. They like it.


----------



## groovetube

As council debates Toronto transit plan, Liberal MPPs push for subways - The Globe and Mail

Oh my. The liberals want to spend the money on subways!

What was that about bedfellows?


----------



## Sonal

The Liberals are hedging their bets. "Yes, Scarborough voters, we think you deserve subways too, but alas, we must follow the will of council."


----------



## Max

_Ugh. _Terrible move by the Ontario Liberals. Not _too_ cynical, innit.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> _Ugh. _Terrible move by the Ontario Liberals. Not _too_ cynical, innit.


It's very easy to pledge support for something that you have no control over and can't really influence anyway. 

Hey, Harper likes subways too, but offers no additional money and says that he is bound by the will of council. Everyone can milk this equally.


----------



## Max

Oh, no question it's an equal-opportunity thing. It's just... the longer this transit debate plays out, the more all sides look moronic and childish. It's a comedy of errors.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Oh, no question it's an equal-opportunity thing. It's just... the longer this transit debate plays out, the more all sides look moronic and childish. It's a comedy of errors.


At least it's a comedy, I guess?


----------



## Max

Sort of, Sonal. Although the joke's on Torontonians... and to a certain extent, Ontarians. As long as this city's transit remains a disaster, the entire province remains adversely affected.

But seriously - the amount of petty infighting and bickering we've seen over this matter is pathetic. Precious few politicians are stepping up to the plate.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> Sort of, Sonal. Although the joke's on Torontonians... and to a certain extent, Ontarians. As long as this city's transit remains a disaster, the entire province remains adversely affected.
> 
> But seriously - the amount of petty infighting and bickering we've seen over this matter is pathetic. Precious few politicians are stepping up to the plate.


There's been a couple who have impressed me on this. Actually, more than a couple. Though they don't necessarily get a lot of media time.

But John Parker, Ron Moeser, Raymond Cho, Karen Stintz.... there's others, but those come to top of mind on transit issue. Even with all the petty infighting, there's been a number who seem to be looking carefully at the facts and numbers and making decisions accordingly. 

Even Del Grande, with his last motion to create a perpetual fund from transit and look into other options beyond Sheppard. The motion itself (pay for it with a parking levy) is not well thought out. But the idea of earmarked funds for transit growth is a good one that should be investigated further.


----------



## groovetube

Ford just wants a subway. He doesn't really know how he'll pay for it, and he doesn't seem to care.

It's lie a little kid in the store that wants the biggest fire truck just so he can brag. This was the best we could come up with?


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Ford just wants a subway. He doesn't really know how he'll pay for it, and he doesn't seem to care.
> 
> It's lie a little kid in the store that wants the biggest fire truck just so he can brag. This was the best we could come up with?


What's interesting is that it looks like at the last second, Ford's allies got together and cobbled up a few different plans without him.

So now council's left, right and centre are all working around him.

Ford strikes me as wanting to be a folk hero, some guy who can stroll into Scarborough and be cheered on as the guy who gave them the subway and didn't inconvenience anyone. Doesn't quite work that way though.


----------



## Sonal

After Mayor Ford disintegrated into a frothing ball of streetcar-hatin' rage this morning, the result was predictable. LRT on Sheppard passes, 24-19.

They are going to look at various 'revenue tools' including parking levies, etc., to see if we can build a perpetual fund for future transit growth.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> As long as this city's transit remains a disaster, the entire province remains adversely affected.


What a COTU attitude. I also think the rest of the province will suffer unless we have another theatre for avant garde dance.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> What a COTU attitude. I also think the rest of the province will suffer unless we have another theatre for avant garde dance.


I agree. More avant-garde dance!


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> I agree. More avant-garde dance!


:clap::clap::clap: Be sure to fund a bilingual Theatre of the Absurd et Théâtre de l'Absurde.


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> :clap::clap::clap: Be sure to fund a bilingual Theatre of the Absurd et Théâtre de l'Absurde.


I will buy season's tickets if they are subsidized of course.


----------



## Sonal

Just think of the employment opportunities for avant-guarde dancers! The government can pay all of them to provide us with a service--dance!


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> I will buy season's tickets if they are subsidized of course.


Hey, what are taxpayers dollars for in not to subsidize various things in the community???


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Just think of the employment opportunities for avant-guarde dancers! The government can pay all of them to provide us with a service--dance!


A fine idea, Sonal. :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> Hey, what are taxpayers dollars for in not to subsidize various things in the community???


+ one million!


----------



## mrjimmy

I just listened to Ford's closing remarks prior to the vote. What an uninspiring man he is. 

His voice is like stale air being released from a tire. You just want it to dissipate quickly so you can start again fresh.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Just think of the employment opportunities for avant-guarde dancers! The government can pay all of them to provide us with a service--dance!


The theatre must be located at Brimley and Sheppard, however.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> The theatre must be located at Brimley and Sheppard, however.


It will take forever to get there!


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> What a COTU attitude. I also think the rest of the province will suffer unless we have another theatre for avant garde dance.


Ahh, but you jest. COTU it ain't. Much as you may be loathe to admit it, Toronto is the province's main economic engine. Or would you rather deny that?

[you can join your ideoflawgical partner here - clap your hands over your ears and loudly chant: subways! subways! subways!]

Seems pretty logical: the biggest economic engine of the province is hobbled by gridlock and abysmal transit . Surely you don't think that these factors _*help*_ the province as a whole.

Anyhoo, I notice a trend in you. First you couldn't wait for Ford to wreck everything. Now you've dialed it back to you're being happy if Ford merely does _nothing._ Like, what's up with that, dewd? Watch out, now - next thing you know you'll have the temerity to expect Ford to do some actual good! You're bound to be disappointed there. The man is too angry to do any good now.


----------



## groovetube

...sorta like a cat on a leash.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Anyhoo, I notice a trend in you. First you couldn't wait for Ford to wreck everything. Now you've dialed it back to you're being happy if Ford merely does _nothing._ Like, what's up with that, dewd? Watch out, now - next thing you know you'll have the temerity to expect Ford to do some actual good! You're bound to be disappointed there. The man is too angry to do any good now.


This is the function of my diminished expectation. He isn't the wrecking ball I had hoped for.


----------



## groovetube

well, the "right" has had their shot at the mayor thing, too bad it was wasted on a bumbling fool.

May be a tough sell now.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> This is the function of my diminished expectation. He isn't the wrecking ball I had hoped for.


Nor the fiscal conservative you hoped for.

He is a wrecking ball, however, that's largely been directed at his own self.

Still.... 2014 is a ways aways.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> It will take forever to get there!


Not when we have LRT! :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## groovetube

I especially loved when Ford was practically foaming at the mouth ranting how all the transit projects have never come in on budget. Not ONE!

So yes let's go with spending 5 times as much on a project that so far has no funding, with take many many more years to complete (if at all) for a line that has been repeatedly shown not to have the density to support such an expense for many many decades.

Some wrecking ball.


----------



## Lawrence

...
VIDEO: Toronto City Council Votes in Favour of LRT on Sheppard
Source: 1010 News Blog





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






Councillors that voted in favour of an LRT include: Maria Augimeri, Ana Bailão, Shelley Carroll, Raymond Cho, Josh Colle, Janet Davis, Glenn De Baeremaeker, Sarah Doucette, John Filion, Paula Fletcher, Mary Fragedakis, Mike Layton, Chin Lee, Gloria Lindsay Luby, Josh Matlow, Pam McConnell, Mary-Margaret McMahon, Joe Mihevc, John Parker, Gord Perks, Anthony Perruzza, Karen Stintz, Adam Vaughan, Kristyn Wong-Tam.

Councillors voting against an LRT include: Paul Ainslie, Michelle Berardinetti, Gary Crawford, Vincent Crisanti, Mike Del Grande, Frank Di Giorgio, Doug Ford, Rob Ford, Mark Grimes, Doug Holyday, Norman Kelly, Peter Milczyn, Denzil Minnan-Wong, Frances Nunziata (Chair), Cesar Palacio, James Pasternak, Jaye Robinson, David Shiner, Michael Thompson 

Councillors Giorgio Mammoliti and Ron Moeser were absent.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Not when we have LRT! :clap::clap::clap:


LRT's save the day!


----------



## Macfury

Headline in NOW Magazine:
_*
LRT saves day as downtown audiences flock to avant garde LGBT dance revue at Scarboro venue*_


----------



## Max

Macfury said:


> He isn't the wrecking ball I had hoped for.


Pity. But still, it strikes me as a curious legacy to seek. Who among us wants the accolades of being seen solely as a wrecker? Sounds just a tad negative. Most aspire to be remembered for positive achievements.

Regardless - what qualities in the man made you ever think he was capable of moving beyond the pantomime of flush-faced bluster? He's a great campaigner, I'll give you that. And his single-mindedness is both his greatest strength and most trafic liability.

As an aside, in the early years of the Soviet empire, one of the charges the ever vengeful and paranoid politburo liked to trump up on troublesome individuals they didn't like was "wrecking." You know, as in various forms of sabotage - for instance, wrecking the formidable industrial machinery of the great Motherland so as to weaken the empire and make it look bad in the eyes of the world. Bad move! Off to the frigid gulag with you, chum.


----------



## Dr.G.

Max said:


> Pity. But still, it strikes me as a curious legacy to seek. Who among us wants the accolades of being seen solely as a wrecker? Sounds just a tad negative. Most aspire to be remembered for positive achievements.
> 
> Regardless - what qualities in the man made you ever think he was capable of moving beyond the pantomime of flush-faced bluster? He's a great campaigner, I'll give you that. And his single-mindedness is both his greatest strength and most trafic liability.
> 
> As an aside, in the early years of the Soviet empire, one of the charges the ever vengeful and paranoid politburo liked to trump up on troublesome individuals they didn't like was "wrecking." You know, as in various forms of sabotage - for instance, wrecking the formidable industrial machinery of the great Motherland so as to weaken the empire and make it look bad in the eyes of the world. Bad move! Off to the frigid gulag with you, chum.


An interesting take on this matter, Max, and an interesting analogy. Not living in the GTA (I am here in Canada's "frigid gulag" -- St. John's), I am not familiar with the depth of the issues. Still, I do know a bit about those early days in the Soviet empire and find this analogy interesting.

In the final analysis, what might be best for Motherland Toronto is for everyone to step back a moment and reflect upon their decisions (hopefully before making them). That video clip of city council did not seem to show this. Still, TO could alway build both systems, making everyone happy .................. but leaving little funding for the library system.  We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Headline in NOW Magazine:
> _*
> LRT saves day as downtown audiences flock to avant garde LGBT dance revue at Scarboro venue*_


The illustration will be a variation of _The Little Engine That Could,_ with Ford's face at the front, beet red and scowling and a train load of happy centrists waving.


----------



## mrjimmy

Toronto News: Sheppard subway showdown?s #BestofTwitter - thestar.com



> David Rider (@dmrider): Standing back for a sec and realizing Ford allies are desperately fighting for a tax the centre-left won’t give them.


----------



## groovetube

The irony is fantastic.


----------



## Sonal

This falls somewhere in that nether region between in poor taste and funny. Not embedding for that reason.
The Downfall of Rob Ford's Subway Vision - YouTube


----------



## Max

That tweet is indeed ironic. Pretty rich.

But in the end, a tax (sorry, I meant "revenue tool") of some sort is just what would free up this logjam and actually allow more freakin' expensive subways to be built.

I love how Ford stood aside and let his buddies propose taxes for this very purpose but wouldn't touch them himself. A man of principle, he. No, simply allow the measly proposed two subway stations that are currently financially covered to be built - and lo and behold, the subway stations shall instantly multiply and the masses will be free to move up and down the magical new lines in abiding prosperity. A heart-warming tale if ever there was one. You just gotta have faith!

_Hey buddy... can you spare me a subway?_


----------



## Sonal

Max, I believe his exact words were "Get out the shovels and dig. The money will flow." Um. Right.

The kind of investment Toronto needs in transit infrastructure is, IMO, currently higher than we can hope to raise operationally. I'm glad that the province has (so far) committed to this 8.4B, but there will be more needed to get us where we should be for a city this size.

That said, I do think a transit reserve fund is a good idea. It would be nice to one day not have to perpetually go begging the province or the Feds. 

I've heard that Ford believes that Minister Flarherty will cough up some money after the next Federal budget. We have other projects we can use that for too.


----------



## Max

Sonal said:


> This falls somewhere in that nether region between in poor taste and funny. Not embedding for that reason.
> The Downfall of Rob Ford's Subway Vision - YouTube


Sonal: it's in terrible taste but it's quite funny. Goes on a bit too long but there are some killer lines in there. Outlines Ford's miserable mis-steps in an uncanny manner.

Man, this is one giant issue in our town these days: transportation hell (and how to best extricate ourselves from it and how soon we can do it).


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Man, this is one giant issue in our town these days: transportation hell (and how to best extricate ourselves from it and how soon we can do it).


Build more self-financing toll roads.


----------



## Max

Change that to _build more self-financing rapid public transit_ and I would agree with you.

I think roads, no matter how impressive, tend to fill up almost as soon as they are built (mind you, toll roads seem to be much better - how is the 407 for capacity these days?) Roads in general are not the most efficient people-movers to serve a bustling metropolis that's densifying in its core. They often encourage sprawl, with all of the inefficiencies that brings with it - giant development costs for sewage and power infrastructure, for example.

Anyway, we've been down this particular road before. It leads to a lovely cul de sac, nestled in a bunch of pretty coiled roads, all of them studded with rows of identical homes. Dulcet music playing in the background, natch.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Change that to _build more self-financing rapid public transit_ and I would agree with you.


The problem is always that the TTC riders seem to need someone else to pay for part of their ride. If they built a great lovely subway to the Airport for example, and charged people $20 to ride it, I would surely pay.

Likewise with roads.

However, I'm no being facetious when I suggest that self-driving automobiles will be commonplace in 20 years, leaving expansive transit plans sidelined, and ending a large amount of gridlock, simply through calculated traffic efficiency.


----------



## Max

Self-diving automobiles are coming, yes. Although that change will go a long way toward killing the romance of the car and erase the pleasure some drivers _still_ get from driving their own vehicle. Nor will the existing network of roads be enough in twenty years - even if every car _is_ driven by a computer nav system and the spaces between rapidly-moving units is mere millimeters.... there's just going to be many, many more of us in this town by then. Nor do I share your confidence that other transit plans will be effectively sidelined. Too many unknowns at this point.


----------



## kps

Instead of putting that technology into self driving cars, it should be put into infrastructure that allows people to work from home. No need to funnel in to the core by 9 and funnel out by 6. Staggered hours, telecommuting and reducing a companies presence in the core can solve quite a bit of the issues. 

I detest most toll roads because they do nothing but increase the overall cost to everything. However, there are some toll roads that do work...but at a cost and one has to learn to bite the bullet for the convenience.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The problem is always that the TTC riders seem to need someone else to pay for part of their ride. If they built a great lovely subway to the Airport for example, and charged people $20 to ride it, I would surely pay.
> 
> Likewise with roads.
> 
> However, I'm no being facetious when I suggest that self-driving automobiles will be commonplace in 20 years, leaving expansive transit plans sidelined, and ending a large amount of gridlock, simply through calculated traffic efficiency.


For $20 I could take the Airport Express and arrive closer to where I actually live (in fact, the driver will sometimes stop right at my door since it's en route), making for a shorter round-trip with more comfortable seats. 

But it depends on ridership. As I understand it, the Yonge line carries enough riders that the operating costs (including long-term capital costs of maintaining the line) are covered. The Sheppard line, not so much.

Good transit also supports the economy. Brings up property values, brings up rent, makes locations more attractive for businesses, etc. 

Plus, there's also the warm and fuzzy value of unifying the city and making it a nice place to live.


----------



## Macfury

I've been stuck in traffic on the way to the airport many times. If you typically show up at the airport 5 hours early, Airport Express is for you!




Sonal said:


> For $20 I could take the Airport Express and arrive closer to where I actually live (in fact, the driver will sometimes stop right at my door since it's en route), making for a shorter round-trip with more comfortable seats.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I've been stuck in traffic on the way to the airport many times. If you typically show up at the airport 5 hours early, Airport Express is for you!


I typically show up at the last possible second. No problems. 

You must have bad traffic luck.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I typically show up at the last possible second. No problems.
> 
> You must have bad traffic luck.


I've even had a cab stop on the 401 due to some malfunctioning gauge and missed my flight.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I've even had a cab stop on the 401 due to some malfunctioning gauge and missed my flight.


That is some bad luck.

I drive across the 401 in rush hour to pick up my folks from the airport, and can time it so I'm there within minutes of them picking up their bags.


----------



## groovetube

yeah. If one has lived here for any length of time they know how to time things at the right time of day.

Never had a timing issue heading to pearson from downtown. Traffic? Sure.


----------



## Sonal

And for the lighter side of local politics.
City staff given lesson in pole dancing technique - The Globe and Mail

I saw the video. It's tasteful. 

And in other news, the libraries are open, half the inside workers bargaining units are back at work, with long-term care workers undergoing binding arbitration (essential service) and part-time recreation staff still negotiating.


----------



## mrjimmy

Toronto News: Change course or we?ll quit, female members of Rob Ford?s executive say - thestar.com



> Robinson criticized Ford at length on Monday. She said he lacks a “vision, strategy and plan,” has taken a “last-minute, knee-jerk” and overly ideological approach to issues, has been unwilling to seek consensus, and is prematurely focused on campaigning.


----------



## Lawrence

*Rob ford KFC*

...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

He was ordering a salad?


----------



## i-rui

salad with gravy.


----------



## Lawrence

Take the Subway, It's the Better Way!!!


----------



## mrjimmy

Lawrence said:


> Take the Subway, It's the Better Way!!!


Look how much fun he's having!

Uh oh, this may put a damper on the pool party:

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford can not buy slice of land next to his home, conservation authority rules | Posted Toronto | National Post



> “I don’t care if you’re the mayor, a doctor… we don’t sell parkland,” said Toronto councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker, who blasted Mr. Ford for even trying to buy it. “This is a violation of the public trust.”


----------



## da_jonesy

How did this get elected in the first place?

Toronto plastic bag ban is 'people's fault,' says Ford - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

The bag ban is insane.


----------



## mrjimmy

da_jonesy said:


> How did this get elected in the first place?
> 
> Toronto plastic bag ban is 'people's fault,' says Ford - Toronto - CBC News


Ford's continued undoing has been nothing short of spectacular!


----------



## i-rui

a ban is going too far, but there was no reason to repeal the fee. it was working. people were using less plastic bags. what was the problem?

it is hilarious how it blew up in Ford's face.


----------



## cap10subtext

Good riddance. http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/04/27/plastic-garbage-oceans.html


----------



## mrjimmy

cap10subtext said:


> Good riddance. Plastic garbage in oceans 'vastly' underestimated - Technology & Science - CBC News


That's what I say. Quit yer whining and adapt.


----------



## Macfury

cap10subtext said:


> Good riddance. Plastic garbage in oceans 'vastly' underestimated - Technology & Science - CBC News


Toronto's bags are entering the Pacific Ocean?


----------



## cap10subtext

Macfury said:


> Toronto's bags are entering the Pacific Ocean?


Silly me, assuming you'd read that hippy tree-hugger propaganda. Here let me scroll halfway down and click on that link for you so you can skim that headline too...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2010/04/16/tech-atlantic-garbage-patch.html

I mean it's not like Toronto is anywhere near a major water source of it's own anyways... And we've officially banned tourism. So you're right. Physically impossible that Toronto's bags be considered part of the problem... Never mind. Nothing to see here.


----------



## Macfury

cap10subtext said:


> Silly me, assuming you'd read that hippy tree-hugger propaganda. Here let me scroll halfway down and click on that link for you so you can skim that headline too...
> 
> Atlantic plastic garbage patch found - Technology & Science - CBC News
> 
> I mean it's not like Toronto is anywhere near a major water source of it's own anyways... And we've officially banned tourism. So you're right. Physically impossible that Toronto's bags be considered part of the problem... Never mind. Nothing to see here.


Most of Toronto's bags wind up in landfill, where they decompose. But jeepers, it's pretty upsetting to think that tourists are taking Toronto's bags and throwing them in the ocean of their choice.


----------



## cap10subtext

Macfury said:


> Most of Toronto's bags wind up in landfill, where they decompose. But jeepers, it's pretty upsetting to think that tourists are taking Toronto's bags and throwing them in the ocean of their choice.


It's about time we looked more closely at what "most of" and "decompose" really mean for our quality of life in 10 to 20 years and instead of trying to fix it long after it's too late, try a little preventative maintenance for a change.


----------



## Macfury

If we're going to do that, we wouldn't even be recycling, which is a tremendous waste of energy and resources--but feels s-o-o-o-o-o good.


----------



## Lichen Software

*Shopping bag rant*

Lets see, 

1. The bags don't degrade - Umm Perfect - No leachate. They just sit there. No environmental hazard to see here. Move right along.

2. Bad for the ocean - So in Ontario, maybe the ban should be in Moosonee and Winisk. Or perhaps educate on the environment three R's for bags - Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

3. They are not recyclable, just petroleum products. Well not recyclable today, so you say. But think of it, you are creating a totally benign petroleum mine. You want a transfer of wealth, take all of the petroleum in Saudi Arabia and make bags, lots and lots of bags. Then bury them and wait until you have a really efficient method of turning them back into oil. Yes, you will have recycled oil. It has already been used at least once. Yes the oil will be for the price of reprocessing. No supertanker needed. The technology is there now. It is really only a matter of price and volume. Think of your landfill as a resource storage depot or a local mine. We are mining the organics (food) for compost now. We are mining the metals. Petroleum will come sooner rather than later.

This idea is nothing new. This is Bucky Fuller's view of garbage dumps and scrap heaps from probably the mid 1950's. It should not be a revolutionary concept today. Oh, I forgot, Toronto the Good does not have dumps. Their garbage is for some one else to have.

4. We must reduce our plastic consumption. Ok, every grocery bag in our house gets used at least twice - Once to bring groceries home and then again to put garbage into. I would never just throw out such a valuable resource. Of course, now you Torontonians are going to go out and buy kitchen catchers - at about 4 times the price, which will go to the landfill and umm just sit there. But these are special, because you are in Toronto and paid a premium price for them. 

Lets add bags for dirty diapers, scooping out pee soiled cat litter, stoop and scoop. You are going to have more special purpose bags at premium prices than you ever imagined. 

Now, these are the mundane uses for packaging material. My mom used to squeeze a penny till the Queen's head hurt. She cut up every bread bag, milk bag and left over shopping bag into rings and knotted them together to make plastic yarn. Then she crocheted shock mats. After about 10 years they would break down. We used them around the wash machine and at the back door and the cottage. Great to clean. Take them out and hose them down.

There is a reason shopping bags are popular. They are extremely efficient and stable and versatile. they should be receiving an award for best design in class.

5. Also, you will contribute to the clear cutting of the Boreal Forest, you know, for the paper for the paper bags. I lived in a paper town. To feed that mill for a couple of weeks it took a pile of trees five tree lengths wide by about 120 feet tall by a quarter mile long. That was the Cranko Crane set up to feed the mill.

6. We will reduce our carbon footprint. Yup. That's what they yelled at MacDonald's so they would go away from Styrofoam to cardboard packaging. When they did the math it turned out the original packaging was very efficient. But hey, the screaming green Illiterati was happy.

7. But they are providing re-usable bags now. Right. Quite frankly, I do not want to bring home chicken in a cotton bag. I do not want my salad greens this week sitting on the chicken blood from next week. I do not want the added footprint of running these suckers through a wash machine and a drier. The bag is not with me unless I plan every shopping trip. This totally trashes the convenience factor.

8. This will hamper the day to day activities of those who already live green. My daughter and her husband live in Victoria with no car. They get around by foot and on bike. Their biggest complaint is no plastic shopping bags. You cannot get off work and pick up a couple of bags of groceries on the way home. Paper bags rip and the do not have handles. They are just so happy when their groceries spill out on the sidewalk. Victoria is tiny compared to Toronto. Multiply that misery.

9. It is just a start. You can look forward to milk bags next. Then you can buy that premium priced 2 liter carton. Once they have bags on the brain, they will keep looking.

This is going to cost people a ton of money for absolutely nothing. It is going to make their already hectic lives even more so due to the inconvenience. And make no mistake, they will be inconvenienced every day in a hundred little ways.

Rob Ford was right. It is the people's fault. They should have stood up on their hind legs and yelled like hell with the initial charge. Like BobLoblaw needed more money. And they should stand up and yell now. This is especially true if you are either environmentally conscious or poor. It is going to cost and it is going to be a huge inconvenience for no reason.


----------



## i-rui

they should've increased the fee to 10 cents instead of banning plastic bags.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> they should've increased the fee to 10 cents instead of banning plastic bags.


The city is going to incur a lot of legal fees defending the bag ban position.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The city is going to incur a lot of legal fees defending the bag ban position.


Only because they did this spontaneously instead of investigating first as is normal for policy decisions. But other cities have banned bags without issue. We aren't the first.

I'd have preferred leaving the fee (or increasing it) and requesting retailers donate it to preserving Toronto's tree canopy, as was the original plan. The fee did reduce costs of disposing of bags in landfill, saving the City money. 

But we'll adjust to an outright ban, like we did bans on smoking in restaurants, bans on pesticides, etc.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> But we'll adjust to an outright ban, like we did bans on smoking in restaurants, bans on pesticides, etc.


Just taken a passive pill, Sonal?


----------



## Dr.G.

"I'd have preferred leaving the fee (or increasing it) and requesting retailers donate it to preserving Toronto's tree canopy, as was the original plan. The fee did reduce costs of disposing of bags in landfill, saving the City money. " An excellent idea, Sonal. Here in St.John's, the major grocery stores just implemented the five-cents per bag fee and most people started to use the larger reuseable bags which cut down on our non-biodegradable waste from these bags.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Just taken a passive pill, Sonal?


No, just aware that a plastic bag ban isn't a sign of the Apocalypse, and that neither shopping in Toronto nor the global environment will be irreparably destroyed as a result.

Other modern cities manage without plastic bags. We'll be fine. The sooner the grumbling over this stops, the sooner we can get on with bigger issues in this city.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> No, just aware that a plastic bag ban isn't a sign of the Apocalypse, and that neither shopping in Toronto nor the global environment will be irreparably destroyed as a result.
> 
> Other modern cities manage without plastic bags. We'll be fine. The sooner the grumbling over this stops, the sooner we can get on with bigger issues in this city.


The sooner the right to dispense plastic bags is resolved, the sooner it will stop.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The sooner the right to dispense plastic bags is resolved, the sooner it will stop.


Well, I suppose the roughly 100K we saved annually in waste management fees by disincenting people from using plastic bags via a small fee will amply cover any legal challenges that might come up from banning bags altogether.

Though I'd rather see that money used for other things.


----------



## dona83

What's wrong with the brown bags? 

And was the 5 cent fee imposed by the city? Superstore, Shoppers Drug Mart, Home Depot, etc. all charge plastic bag fees regardless of municipality.


----------



## Sonal

dona83 said:


> What's wrong with the brown bags?
> 
> And was the 5 cent fee imposed by the city? Superstore, Shoppers Drug Mart, Home Depot, etc. all charge plastic bag fees regardless of municipality.


I suspect that you can thank Toronto for that.

The City of Toronto passed a bylaw requiring all retailers to charge a 5 cent fee on plastic bags--due to some legal issues, the City was not allowed to collect this directly, so it went to the retailers. 

But many retailers liked the policy and began charging 5 cents for plastic bags everywhere, whether there was a bylaw or not.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Well, I suppose the roughly 100K we saved annually in waste management fees by disincenting people from using plastic bags via a small fee will amply cover any legal challenges that might come up from banning bags altogether.
> 
> Though I'd rather see that money used for other things.


Do you really believe the 100K figure? I don't. The city has been woefully negligent in its accounting for both waste collection and its recycling program.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Do you really believe the 100K figure? I don't. The city has been woefully negligent in its accounting for both waste collection and its recycling program.


I don't disbelieve that we are saving money by diverting fewer plastic bags to landfill.

Though having had to try and sort out invoices with the City about their waste collection, yeah, I agree, their accounting sucks. They can't tell you anything about anything.


----------



## Lawrence

Toronto should just turn the Hearn Generating station into a safe scrubber type incinerator,
Burn the garbage and generate power at the same time, Then watch, They'll make you be wasteful.


----------



## mrjimmy

One is the loneliest number.....

Toronto News: Mayor Rob Ford votes against ?free money? for gang prevention - thestar.com


----------



## mrjimmy

Howard Stern they're not. Ignorant and bigoted they are:

Toronto News: Doug Ford apologizes for using ?Polack? to describe Rob Ford?s wife - thestar.com



> “Anyways — well, you’re married to the Polack, so you gotta cheer for the Polish team.”


----------



## mrjimmy

A late breaking news item from 2008:

China bans plastic shopping bags - CBC News

Hmm, I guess if the People's Republic can deal with it....


----------



## Max

That just means that Toronto city council would have us all be a bunch of no-good commie bag-haters.


----------



## Sonal

Max said:


> That just means that Toronto city council would have us all be a bunch of no-good commie bag-haters.


Yep.

As started by that commie nogoodnik Cllr David Shiner. Former Lastman Budget Chief, member of that commie hotbed the Conservative Party of Canada... he's got pinko written all over him.


----------



## mrjimmy

Max said:


> That just means that Toronto city council would have us all be a bunch of no-good commie bag-haters.


Although Rob has shown an affinity toward our neighbours from the east.

From his Wikipedia page:



> At a council meeting on March 5, 2008, Ford said, "Those Oriental people work like dogs. They work their hearts out. They are workers non-stop. They sleep beside their machines. That's why they're successful in life. I went to Seoul, South Korea, I went to Taipei, Taiwan. I went to Tokyo, Japan. That's why these people are so hard workers (sic). I'm telling you, the Oriental people, they're slowly taking over."


Perhaps what he meant by 'working like dogs' was the struggle to get their shopping home.


----------



## i-rui

Mayor twists ankle at final weigh-in - 680News

video here:

Thestar.com - VideoZone


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> Mayor twists ankle at final weigh-in - 680News
> 
> video here:
> 
> Thestar.com - VideoZone


I guess this publicity stunt more than backfired.


----------



## Sonal

OneCity Transit Plan for Toronto | Councillors De Baeremaeker & Stintz

Thoughts? Comments?

This CVA Uptake deal is interesting. Evidently, it makes property taxes work more the way I had thought they actually worked.


----------



## cap10subtext

I totally support this but honestly, if city hall had just been allowed to implement transit city in the first place we could have had our cake and eaten it too.

Instead we are staring at between $65 and $116 million in kill fees depending how you slice it just so we can hire the same companies to build according to a nearly identical blueprint. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/12/13/toronto-transit-city-cancellation-costs.html

Queen's park (I can't believe I'm saying this) is absolutely right. Put a shovel in the ground already otherwise why should they believe this plan is "the one" over the other three before it?


----------



## groovetube

Toronto Mayor Ford tries to clarify his comments on gun criminals and immigration - The Globe and Mail

This is truly embarrassing. The mayor of the biggest city.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Toronto Mayor Ford tries to clarify his comments on gun criminals and immigration - The Globe and Mail
> 
> This is truly embarrassing. The mayor of the biggest city.


To think he is a leader to some and a role model to others is frightening.


----------



## OldeBullDust

Yes, Toronto's Mayor is just a little confused. 

I think he jumped on the shooting problem hoping to score points, but ended up demonstrating his lack of understanding of the issues.

A reader's comment sums it up quite well:

_"If you had a scan of Rob Ford's brain you would see 2 monkeys fighting over a peanut..."_


----------



## i-rui

completely unfit to hold public office :

Raw Video: Ford won't explain why he voted against community funding - News Hour - Videos | Global Toronto


in reference to this :

Mayor Rob Ford silently votes against every community grants program, again - thestar.com


----------



## groovetube

The idea that you just bullheadedly ram your ideology down everyone's throats without any thought or regard to what the consequences may be is just inexcusable for a mayor of Toronto.

Wasn't there a fred flinstone episode where they had clones where they just yes yes yes! no no no!

To lead a city like Toronto (or the country for that matter) it requires far more than what Ford possesses.


----------



## Macfury

If Ford believes the money would be poorly spent by the recipients, he's certainly withing his rights to vote with his conscience against them.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> If Ford believes the money would be poorly spent by the recipients, he's certainly withing his rights to vote with his conscience against them.


No one is disputing his right to be an imbecile...


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> No one is disputing his right to be an imbecile...


It would be imbecilic to allocate money to organizations that one believes to be incompetent.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> It would be imbecilic to allocate money to organizations that one believes to be incompetent.


If anyone knows incompetence, Ford does.


----------



## i-rui

the irony is Ford actually *COST* taxpayers *MORE* money by forcing votes on the grants - time is money and city hall had to devote extra time so Ford could go on record as the *ONLY* vote against.

He couldn't get any of his political allies to vote against them. Not even his own brother agreed with him. It was an empty exercise in political ideology.

And then on top of ALL that he doesn't say *WHY* he voted against them. He puts a stop on the grants so he can vote against them, and then doesn't say a word. WTF? If he's going to take some "stand" against the grants at least make your point. Have a discussion to further your cause.

But with Ford there was none of that. Because he doesn't have a legitimate point that he can competently communicate.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the irony is Ford actually *COST* taxpayers *MORE* money by forcing votes on the grants - time is money and city hall had to devote extra time so Ford could go on record as the *ONLY* vote against.


Nothing like democracy to get in the way of progress.


----------



## i-rui

nothing like a futile gesture to cost tax payer money.


----------



## Macfury

Never let a vote get in the way of a well-oiled machine.


----------



## i-rui

never let "a point" get in the way of a vote against.


----------



## Sonal

While I don't like Rob Ford, and I don't agree with his vote against the community grants, he has every right to do so, and no obligation to explain why.

But advantage of having the full council vote on community grants is that it puts it very clearly on record that Rob Ford is against this.


----------



## i-rui

i'm not suggesting he did anything "illegal", but i completely disagree that he doesn't have a duty to explain his vote. he's the mayor. he's supposed to be leading city council, not just grunting out votes against.

and he certainly shouldn't be surprised that the media will be holding him to the fire if he doesn't explains his actions.


----------



## Sonal

I'll grant you that his inability to explain why he votes as he does shows him to be a bad leader, particularly in a weak-mayor system like Toronto council, but he's free to be a bad leader.

Likewise, the media is free to point that out and question him on it.


----------



## cap10subtext

Just as we should be free to fire him for incompetence, ineffective management and uninformed leadership. That's democracy. Time to practice it.


----------



## Macfury

cap10subtext said:


> Just as we should be free to fire him for incompetence, ineffective management and uninformed leadership. That's democracy. Time to practice it.


Well, not yet. The time would be Monday, October 27, 2014.

Hopefully a real fiscal conservative will show up. Only the return of George Smitherman or David Miller could get me to vote for Ford again.


----------



## Max

Mayor Ford. A train wreck on steroids.

Yes, hopefully someone who knows the value of a buck and who actually knows how to knit this wacky city together. But I'd also like to see someone who could work with the feds and the provincial muckey-mucks to give the transit file some much-needed coherence and juice.


----------



## Lawrence

I think Mayor Ford would look great in a cowboy outfit twirling his pearl handled guns.


----------



## mrjimmy

Lawrence said:


> I think Mayor Ford would look great in a cowboy outfit twirling his pearl handled guns.


It would have to be a bit too tight with a tiny cowboy hat... Maybe in purple.


----------



## groovetube

Max said:


> Mayor Ford. A train wreck on steroids.
> 
> Yes, hopefully someone who knows the value of a buck and who actually knows how to knit this wacky city together. But I'd also like to see someone who could work with the feds and the provincial muckey-mucks to give the transit file some much-needed coherence and juice.


amen. I don;t know that any of the choices in the last election could step up to that. But at least we wouldn't have had such an embarrassment of a mayor. Hopefully someone with brains does show up next time round.


----------



## jimbotelecom

If you can't hug a thug....embrace a fascist instead!

Priceless!

Rob Ford takes heat for New Year?s levee photo with neo-Nazi | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


----------



## mrjimmy

jimbotelecom said:


> If you can't hug a thug....embrace a fascist instead!
> 
> Priceless!
> 
> Rob Ford takes heat for New Year?s levee photo with neo-Nazi | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


He is truly such a fool.


----------



## jimbotelecom

I thought TO had learned their lesson after electing Mel Lastperson but sometimes you have to stumble twice. Good thing council is bigger than Robbie.


----------



## i-rui

Mayor Ford admits to reading while driving on Gardiner - 680News


----------



## jimbotelecom

Jeez Louize! He can read!?


----------



## groovetube

who knew?


----------



## kps

Thank god he wasn't eating KFC..some would start calling for the mayor's defenestration!!!!!


----------



## i-rui

> I’m busy. I try to catch up on work and, you know, I keep my eyes on the road, but I’m a busy man... - Toronto Mayor Rob Ford


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


>


THAT is funny!


----------



## Max

Love how Hizzoner justified his latest stunt by simply claiming he's busy. The mind boggles.


----------



## Macfury

Max said:


> Love how Hizzoner justified his latest stunt by simply claiming he's busy. The mind boggles.


He should be busy haphazardly deconstructing the bureaucracy--but he's too lazy.


----------



## groovetube

He doesn't seem as lazy as he seems to lack the mental capacity to do anything beyond his failed nonsense.


----------



## Sonal

Ford simply lacks understanding of the fact that this is a weak-Mayor system... everything works on consensus, and he has no idea how to build consensus. You can't dismantle a bureaucracy from within without understanding how it works.

That, and seems to miss out on the idea that complex problems usually require thinking.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Ford simply lacks understanding of the fact that this is a weak-Mayor system... everything works on consensus, and he has no idea how to build consensus. You can't dismantle a bureaucracy from within without understanding how it works.
> 
> *That, and seems to miss out on the idea that complex problems usually require thinking.*


:lmao:


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Ford *simply lacks understanding* of the fact that this is a weak-Mayor system... everything works on consensus, and *he has no idea* how to build consensus. You can't dismantle a bureaucracy from within *without understanding how it works*.
> 
> That, and seems to *miss out on the idea* that complex problems usually require thinking.


In other words:



groovetube said:


> he seems to lack the mental capacity


----------



## Sonal

You know, I don't think you have to be super-intelligent to be a good Mayor. So long as you can put the the right people together to discuss issues and come up with feasible plans, you don't have to be the brightest crayon in the box. 

But you have to be a consensus-builder. And in this, Ford stinks.


----------



## Dr.G.

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford refuses driver - Toronto - CBC News

Good for him. Now, if the good folks in the GTA would donate some money and get him a course at Young Drivers of Canada, maybe he would not drive and read at the same time, or pass a bus with open doors.


----------



## kps

Dr.G. said:


> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford refuses driver - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> Good for him. Now, if the good folks in the GTA would donate some money and get him a course at Young Drivers of Canada, maybe he would not drive and read at the same time, or pass a bus with open doors.


My understanding is he's refusing a "new hire" to be his driver, he's saying there should be someone in the department to do it. Oh and he's also refusing the 3% raise him and the council are to get. So yeah, good for him.

and it's streetcars you can't pass when the doors are open...not buses. Buses stop at the curb, just like in St. John's.


----------



## JAMG

Toronto has a weak Mayoral system, and Rob Ford should realize that City hall can not be run effectively without the consent of the children of fondly remembered local television reporters....

but he should get a driver... not a new hire, an existing member of his staff.
Mayor Ford has refused his salary increase, the rest of council...not so much.


----------



## Dr.G.

kps said:


> My understanding is he's refusing a "new hire" to be his driver, he's saying there should be someone in the department to do it. Oh and he's also refusing the 3% raise him and the council are to get. So yeah, good for him.
> 
> and it's streetcars you can't pass when the doors are open...not buses. Buses stop at the curb, just like in St. John's.


Oops. Mea culpa.


----------



## jimbotelecom

So long Robbie!
Marcus Gee: Toronto Mayor Ford only has himself to blame - The Globe and Mail


----------



## cap10subtext

I always figured Ford was ignorant but I'm shocked that the Mayor of Toronto doesn't know what a conflict of interest really is. I work at a university and the number of times i've had to turn down work because it violated the unions conflict of interest regulations i couldn't tell you. I'm an artist and a technologist. I can tell you what a conflict of interest is. What is his excuse? So sure, $3,150 doesn't seem like enough to eject a democratically elected official from his post, but what other deals has he put through that are a flagrant violation of rules he doesn't seem to grasp even the very spirit of: that you can abuse your power as an employee of the city, whose salary is paid buy taxes, to give charities, business and individuals a consistent unfair advantage over others in a way that makes it difficult if not impossible to draw the line between social niceties and illegal kickbacks. This is the very "gravy", shady backdoor contracts and funneled tax payers money, that Ford was up in arms against. He just doesn't have the common sense to see it.


----------



## Lawrence

*The Strange and Savage Fall of Etobicoke Slim*

Let's read Skippy and his take on all this

skippy-posts, The-strange-and-savage-fall-of Etobicoke Slim

A brief history of complaints against Ford
Courtesy of the Torontoist


----------



## i-rui

more political theatre from this buffoon:

Mayor Ford bails on executive committee meeting to be Coach Ford | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

even the Sun can't put a shine on his turds any longer.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> more political theatre from this buffoon:
> 
> Mayor Ford bails on executive committee meeting to be Coach Ford | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun
> 
> even the Sun can't put a shine on his turds any longer.


And still, I am better off than when David Miller was in charge. That's a sad statement on Toronto politics.


----------



## groovetube

Given that Ford has one vote and has often not gotten his grandiose ill thought out plans through, that speaks well of the current council.

Imagine if we had a mayor with a brain...


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Given that Ford has one vote and has often not gotten his grandiose ill thought out plans through, that speaks well of the current council.
> 
> Imagine if we had a mayor with a brain...


If I Only Had a Brain - The Wizard of Oz (4/8) Movie CLIP (1939) HD - YouTube

He should go and ask the Wizard for a brain.


----------



## groovetube

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford?s office aides help run his football teams - The Globe and Mail

Now there's some real respect for taxpayers dollars. Respect in that he respects the resources he can use for his own interests.


----------



## groovetube

surprisingly quiet about Ford's misuse of city resources all of a sudden.

How about this bizarre exchange:
'Are you going to be sleeping with me tonight?' Mayor Rob Ford's bizarre football exchange in Chicago - thestar.com

The people in Chicago must be just laughing at Toronto with this buffoon running around with business cards repeating that Toronto is 'open for business'.


----------



## i-rui

it turns out being mayor has it's perks for your family business...

Mayor Ford refuses to take questions about family business road repairs - The Globe and Mail


----------



## groovetube

hey we're better off! Somehow!

Metrolinx to hire private operator to run new Toronto LRT lines, not TTC | Posted Toronto | National Post

Yes we all know where privatizing things ends up...


----------



## groovetube

Ford?s office asked province about money for football field - thestar.com

It seems every week or so something is surfacing. Where there's smoke, there's fire...


----------



## i-rui

more :

Ford interfered with civic appointments process, ombudsman says - 680News


----------



## groovetube

man, for the next election, Ford has been handing potential candidates just gold to rip him with.


----------



## groovetube

excellent piece in the grid.
Rob Ford?s big lie | The Grid TO

The fantasy land of low taxes, yet not cutting services. Sounds familiar doesn't it!

In Ford's case, he wants to sends unbelievable amounts of money on subways where they aren't really needed, yet anyone who tries to get anywhere in the king queen corridor, you want to talk about gridlock???

Just imagine how that section will fare in about 5 or so years after this do nothing fantasy land mayor wastes our time.


----------



## dona83

Has there ever been a Canadian mayor who attracted this much national attention? This is great entertainment, at the expense of Torontonians unfortunately, but you can't even make this stuff up.


----------



## Sonal

dona83 said:


> Has there ever been a Canadian mayor who attracted this much national attention? This is great entertainment, at the expense of Torontonians unfortunately, but you can't even make this stuff up.


There's a book: Ivor Tossel's _The Gift of Ford._


----------



## kps

Just to balance out some of this negativity. lol

Rob Ford's success measured in money saved




> TORONTO - With two tumultuous years at the helm of the city under his belt, Mayor Rob Ford says he never ever thought those opposed to his “respect for taxpayers” agenda would get so “desperate.
> 
> “They’re in complete rage and it’s only getting worse,” he told me Thursday.
> 
> The attacks from his detractors — who still can’t get it through their thick heads that he won fair and square — have been relentless, puerile and regularly vicious. Their campaign to create a sideshow that will take the focus off the hard work Ford has done, has bordered on zealous.





> I will grant Ford this: He has done more than Mel Lastman and David Miller combined to return City Hall to some hope of fiscal sanity and to mop up the messes they left behind.
> 
> Lastman put in the jobs for life provision for employees with 10 years of service or more in CUPE’s first contract and faced a strike in 2002 when he tried to take it out.
> 
> Miller extended the jobs for life provision to all CUPE employees in 2005 — who still brought the city to a standstill in 2009 with a 39-day strike.
> 
> Neither mayor had the “balls” to kneecap the unions.
> 
> But when the Ford regime — with capable deputy mayor Doug Holyday as the point person on the file — stood up to the CUPE bullies, they folded like a bunch of cheap suits. A four year deal was struck which greatly reduced the job protection provisions.
> 
> There were no strikes.


Rob Ford's success measured in money saved | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


----------



## i-rui

yes, Sue-Ann Levy & the Toronto Sun is the bastion of credible journalism.


----------



## groovetube

She apparently self destructed on twitter the other night.

She really is, a piece of work.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Just to balance out some of this negativity. lol


I would STILL take Rob Ford over David Miller in a heartbeat.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> Just to balance out some of this negativity. lol
> 
> Rob Ford's success measured in money saved
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rob Ford's success measured in money saved | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


messes they left behind? Nonsense. Ford won by basically creating some big boogeyman "gravy train" horsecrap that enough people bought. And a lot of (smart) people are starting to figure out, that Ford simply, isn't smart enough, to be mayor. It doesn't take brains to say, 'no', and certainly, it'd be easier to deal with unions in a big economic downturn. They are also finding out that this big boogeyman gravy train was a lot of stupidity.

As usual, the lunatic right (and I say lunatic when referring to the likes of the ford brothers and don cherry screaming about big bad boogeyman bike riding left wing pinkos...) have created a big us and them scenario, because, generally people with that level of IQ can only really understand this. I don't think many people can argue with being fiscally responsible, nor keeping spending in check. But really, what an absolute sham this whole respect for tax payers dollars has been!

The truth is, Ford is a bumbling one dimensional fool. He may have trimmed a handful of things, but in the process, has shown pretty much everyone, he has practically no understanding of the process, working in a team, or even what the role of being mayor is in the first place. If his disdain for tax payers dollars by using city resources/staff for his own pet projects isn't enough, he wants to spend WAAAAY more money, billions and billions on subways up in areas that won't even use the capacity for decades, while now suddenly realizing that there is a looming near crisis in transit in the south end of the city. I don't think people quite realize, just how much Ford is really going to -cost- this city. Perhaps transit city, is going to start looking reeeeally good. And cheap in comparison. Meanwhile the Ford brothers are yammering about ferris wheels...

Trust me, perhaps those who live way up north may not be aware, but there is a looming massive spending crisis that will hit Toronto with both barrels, and after mr respect for tax payers dollars has saved a handful of millions only to blow billions and billions more than what say Miller would have, (guess who'll be paying for this...) we are going to once again, wake up with that horrible conservative hangover. You know, the one where after we have been promised peaches and unicorns and we magically will get tax cuts, only to discover years down the road, that not only are we broke from the ridiculous spending, but we are also in a huge crisis for someone else to clean up as well.

Then we can hear from the right wing how it was the guy trying to clean it up's fault. Sound familiar?

yeah.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I would STILL take Rob Ford over David Miller in a heartbeat.


Of course you would. You have a clear unbroken track record here, of choosing the one that spends the most, each time.


----------



## kps

I love it when anti Ford lefties start circling the wagons. LOL

Sue-Ann at least specializes in City Hall reporting, so I'll give her some credence.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> yes, Sue-Ann Levy & the Toronto Sun is the bastion of credible journalism.


As credible as the 'Red" Star. The Sun isn't any less credible than the other biased rags available to us.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> I would STILL take Rob Ford over David Miller in a heartbeat.


Was there ever any doubt?


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> I love it when anti Ford lefties start circling the wagons. LOL
> 
> Sue-Ann at least specializes in City Hall reporting, so I'll give her some credence.


I have read her columns about city hall for years, and know full well of her nonsense and spin, it's well known. Her adulation of Ford isn't surprising.

It isn't just the left that's circling wagons, even his own supporters are walking away.


----------



## kps

Is she lying in what she wrote? 

All reporters put their own spin on their stories along with their biases, but so what, most of us be it righties or lefties, can filter the BS.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Is she lying in what she wrote?


No, but she's not entirely accurate either. (And the Sun has had to print retractions for her statements multiple times in the past.)

I haven't fact-checked every detail, but the column implies that Ford was responsible for bringing Andy Byford on to head up the TTC. 

Byford was Gary Webster's choice for a successor after Webster's contract ran out, which would have been about 18 months after he was fired. (Incidentally, the City still has to pay him this money.) 

To credit Ford for this hire is not accurate. If anything, it was Gary Webster who brought him in to train him to take over once Webster left in a year and a half anyway. At best, Ford accelerated this process.

I think Andy Byford is the right guy for the job, and if he manages to pull off getting the Downtown Relief Line (which is getting a lot of positive press right now) then Toronto will benefit from his presence for decades to come. But how his succession took place was not right.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> No, but she's not entirely accurate either. (And the Sun has had to print retractions for *his* statements multiple times in the past.)


His? Now I know that Sue-Ann is openly gay...but do you know something we don't?


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> His? Now I know that Sue-Ann is openly gay...but do you know something we don't?


Whoops. Been working on school assignments for the past 16 hours.... clearly, I need to take a break.


----------



## groovetube

I've written her a few times over glaring inaccurate facts. She doesn't seem to care much for facts. She has a bit of a reputation for this, but then again, she writes for the Sun. Not so much about Bias, just the inability to get the facts.

Saw this:
Mayor Rob Ford wants to eliminate city watchdog offices - thestar.com

Now there's a classic move. Perhaps he's learning a thing or two from his peers in Ottawa. Oops did I say peers? That may have been optimistic.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> I've written her a few times over glaring inaccurate facts. She doesn't seem to care much for facts. She has a bit of a reputation for this, but then again, she writes for the Sun. Not so much about Bias, just the inability to get the facts.
> 
> Saw this:
> Mayor Rob Ford wants to eliminate city watchdog offices - thestar.com
> 
> Now there's a classic move. Perhaps he's learning a thing or two from his peers in Ottawa. Oops did I say peers? That may have been optimistic.


Priceless. According to you I'm to dismiss Levy and the Sun, but accept the written word of the Star who has had a running battle with Ford even prior to the election? Yeah, OK.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Priceless. According to you I'm to dismiss Levy and the Sun, but accept the written word of the Star who has had a running battle with Ford even prior to the election? Yeah, OK.


I wouldn't dismiss the Sun entirely--Don Peat covers city hall (news, not op-ed) is very good. Here's his article on the same story:
Mayor Rob Ford, Doug Ford broke council's code of conduct, integrity commissioner rules | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

About midway down is the quote from Ford about how we don't need the city watchdog positions. It was on Ford's radio show, which most of the reporters on the city hall beat seem to listen to. Same story is in the Globe and Mail.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> I wouldn't dismiss the Sun entirely--Don Peat covers city hall (news, not op-ed) is very good..


Amazing, isn't it?


----------



## groovetube

So what if it was in the star, it's true and reported by everyone else.

Funny how the report in the star had more credibility than Levy. Which perhaps isn't saying a whole lot.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> No, but she's not entirely accurate either. (And the Sun has had to print retractions for her statements multiple times in the past.)
> 
> I haven't fact-checked every detail, but the column implies that Ford was responsible for bringing Andy Byford on to head up the TTC.
> 
> Byford was Gary Webster's choice for a successor after Webster's contract ran out, which would have been about 18 months after he was fired. (Incidentally, the City still has to pay him this money.)
> 
> To credit Ford for this hire is not accurate. If anything, it was Gary Webster who brought him in to train him to take over once Webster left in a year and a half anyway. At best, Ford accelerated this process.
> 
> I think Andy Byford is the right guy for the job, and if he manages to pull off getting the Downtown Relief Line (which is getting a lot of positive press right now) then Toronto will benefit from his presence for decades to come. But how his succession took place was not right.


And speaking of the Sun and retractions, I was reading about the Sun News network and a recent dustup involving Ezra Levant and his racist rants now possibly leading to charges. I recall someone joking when Ezra Levant joined the Sun they also bolstered their legal team.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Amazing, isn't it?


Well, I'd still dismiss Sue-Ann Levy, but she's not a reporter; she's a columnist. Her job is to write her opinion, not report facts. So if she's saying that Ford is doing a great job, well, that's her opinion. 

But I follow most of the city hall journos on Twitter--it's pretty rare that they aren't reporting the same things, because they're all at the same events and seeing the same things. There's usually not a lot of difference between them.


----------



## Dr.G.

"Two TTC buses were pulled from their routes, abandoning passengers, to pick up the players of Toronto Mayor Rob Ford’s high school football team on Thursday.

Ford had missed about 2½ hours of Thursday’s council meeting to attend the semifinal football game of the team he coaches."

Those abandoned passengers should have walked ........... the exercise would have done them some good. 

TTC buses pulled off routes to pick up Rob Ford's football team - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

On the subject of Sue-anne Levy, there's a piece on her self destruction on twitter, and Sun news distancing itself from her: Sue-Ann Levy Tweet Suggests Obama Might Be Muslim

I guess the Sun news is getting rather used to stepping away from it's writers and er, 'journalists'.


----------



## i-rui




----------



## groovetube

pretty much sums up his performance as mayor so far.


----------



## Sonal

The Sun is not too happy with the Mayor right now:

Mayor Rob Ford targets the messenger at his libel trial | Home | Toronto Sun


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


>


He didn't even get hit from his blind side. Guess he will not sub for the Argos Sunday.


----------



## Rps

Dr.G. said:


> He didn't even get hit from his blind side. Guess he will not sub for the Argos Sunday.


Didn't know Harvey played football.


----------



## Lawrence

...









Four legs good...Two legs bad.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> The Sun is not too happy with the Mayor right now:
> 
> Mayor Rob Ford targets the messenger at his libel trial | Home | Toronto Sun


oooooh boy. Smooth move.


----------



## groovetube

‘Olivia Chow is no Jack Layton,' Councillor Doug Ford says of Mayor Ford's potential rival - thestar.com

even smoother move by the brother.

You're all class there Doug, real class.

I love how there is the possibility that he would run for the provincial conservatives. If I were in that party, I'd keep that mouthpiece of a walking disaster far, far away from my party.


----------



## i-rui

gotta love the internet!


----------



## groovetube

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford’s job at stake as conflict of interest ruling due | Posted Toronto | National Post

It would be too good to be true...


----------



## Rps

groovetube said:


> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford’s job at stake as conflict of interest ruling due | Posted Toronto | National Post
> 
> It would be too good to be true...


Grove do you think he's done? If he survives this one do you think he'd loose the next election or is it tooooooo far to matter?


----------



## ehMax

i-rui said:


> gotta love the internet!


I LOL'd. :lmao:


----------



## Sonal

Rps said:


> Grove do you think he's done? If he survives this one do you think he'd loose the next election or is it tooooooo far to matter?


I don't think he's done on Monday. I think it will likely declared a conflict, but it's unlikely the judge will have him removed from office, considering that the amount is small and for a charity. 

And even if he is done... well, it's not as though Ford's opponents have rallied around a likely candidate yet. He may still be able to run and win.

Next election, it's hard to say. Depends on who is running, though in this early stage I have a good feeling about Olivia Chow, should she choose to run.


----------



## Rps

Sonal, I'm not so sure Ms. Chow would run, my thinking is the glamour might be coming off the NDP bandwagon and she might be looking at the national leadership of the party...........although she could park herself as a mayor for some political cred across the country ( not that she needs any that's for sure ).


----------



## Lawrence

Toronto is too messed up, I don't think Olivia would want to entrench herself with
the extensive cleanup needed after Ford's bumbling to get this city back on track.
Whoever takes the position on in the future is going to have a lot of sleepless nights.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Sonal, I'm not so sure Ms. Chow would run, my thinking is the glamour might be coming off the NDP bandwagon and she might be looking at the national leadership of the party...........although she could park herself as a mayor for some political cred across the country ( not that she needs any that's for sure ).


I don't know, I think the opposite, the ndp isn't the party she signed up for anymore under Mulcaire, I doubt he'll let the reins loose anytime soon, and perhaps she's looking elsewhere like the Toronto mayor's job. Especially if council galvanizes behind her and she slides into easy victory.

I don't think Ford will be removed from office either on Monday.


----------



## Sonal

Rps said:


> Sonal, I'm not so sure Ms. Chow would run, my thinking is the glamour might be coming off the NDP bandwagon and she might be looking at the national leadership of the party...........although she could park herself as a mayor for some political cred across the country ( not that she needs any that's for sure ).


She's softened her position from "No way" to "I'm not ruling anything out."

Hard to say though. It's a good time for the NDP federally, but I don't know that Olivia Chow is in the centre of things these days.


----------



## Rps

Sonal said:


> She's softened her position from "No way" to "I'm not ruling anything out."
> 
> Hard to say though. It's a good time for the NDP federally, but I don't know that Olivia Chow is in the centre of things these days.


Exactly! She will not be contaminated. If we had mid-terms like the U.S. it would be interesting to think the voting results. I would be shocked if the NDP can sustain itself nationally. However I don't mean to derail the purpose of this thread, I think Ford has destructive tendencies and he will most likely unseat himself ... especially if there is a change in government Provincially.


----------



## i-rui

More trouble for Rob Ford?

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford arranged meeting between client of family firm, water officials - The Globe and Mail

He's like a Möbius strip of controversy.


----------



## Lawrence

i-rui said:


> More trouble for Rob Ford?
> 
> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford arranged meeting between client of family firm, water officials - The Globe and Mail
> 
> He's like a Möbius strip of controversy.


Ford quotes as saying in that link:


> “I don’t discuss clients.” He said that he objected to The Globe and Mail making a number of inquiries about Deco’s affairs and promised to criticize the newspaper on his weekly radio show.


Talk about being a control freak, Ford has promised to criticize the Globe and Mail now.


----------



## groovetube

> Is this journalism?


ha ha ha yeah Robbie, just not the kind you like.


----------



## Rps

Eagerly awaitng the 10:00 am ruling................. just like Christmas Eve.............


----------



## ehMax

WOW!!! Guilty and ordered to be removed from office!  :clap:


----------



## CubaMark

That's a stunner...

Rob Ford Court Ruling Boots Toronto Mayor From Office


----------



## jimbotelecom

ehMax said:


> WOW!!! Guilty and ordered to be removed from office!  :clap:


How the heck are they going to extract him?


----------



## groovetube

AWESOME!!!!!!!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

So conservatives, how's that accountibility stuff working out for you now! HA HA HA HA HA.



> Judge found he showed "stubborn sense of entitlement" and broke conflict of interest rules


Amazing how it's the liberals that are always accused of this.

The sad news? Which party isn't?


----------



## Rps

Arrogance has its price!


----------



## ehMax

jimbotelecom said:


> How the heck are they going to extract him?


A fork lift is loading him onto a gravy train. 

He's locked in the City of Toronto printing room though right now quickly printing off some new business cards. 

First the Grey Cup, and now this! Early Christmas for Toronto!


----------



## Lawrence

How can he be the Mayor in the Grey Cup parade if he isn't the Mayor anymore?


----------



## cap10subtext

Lawrence said:


> How can he be the Mayor in the Grey Cup parade if he isn't the Mayor anymore?


This post is relevant to my conflicting interests.


----------



## Dr.G.

By law, Hackland could have barred Ford from running again for office for a period of up to seven years.

However, the judge did not place any such restrictions on his ruling "beyond the current term." Council would either have to vote to appoint someone to the mayor's office to serve until the 2014 municipal election or vote to hold a byelection for the office of mayor.

Ford can now apply to stay the judgment. If successful, he could remain as mayor until an appeal process is exhausted.

He could also be the one they appoint ................ thus, meeting the letter of the law, but having him continue to guide the "ship of state" on the Good Ship GTA. We shall see.




CubaMark said:


> That's a stunner...
> 
> Rob Ford Court Ruling Boots Toronto Mayor From Office


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> How can he be the Mayor in the Grey Cup parade if he isn't the Mayor anymore?


He's not officially removed for 14 days to allow for administrative transition. So he's still Mayor and still can be in the Grey Cup parade.


----------



## Dr.G.

Maybe they will bring back Mel Lastman ............... especially if the GTA is facing a rough winter with snow this year.


----------



## Dr.G.

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford says that if an ongoing renewal challenge results in him losing his job, he will seek to regain it at the first opportunity.

Could TO be in for a bloodless coup d'etat???


----------



## Sonal

Here's what I would like to see happen:

Council appoints someone as interim Mayor to finish up. Election in 2014 as usual.

As much as I dislike Rob Ford, we have too much to do in Toronto to get bogged down in a by-election. Let him go off to the side and finish up with all of his legal troubles while the rest of the city council gets down to the business of getting stuff done.


----------



## Lawrence

Dr.G. said:


> Maybe they will bring back Mel Lastman ............... especially if the GTA is facing a rough winter with snow this year.


Maybe Ford will call in the army.


----------



## jimbotelecom

Globe and Mail says he's appealing. Frankly I find him revolting.


----------



## Sonal

His appealing this is entirely in character.


----------



## jimbotelecom

More from Ford's scrum: "I'm going to appeal it and carry on with my job," he said. "I'm a fighter and I've done a lot of great work for the city and sometimes you win some, you lose some."

"This comes down to left-wing politics. The left-wing wants me out of here and they'll do anything in their power to."

Yeah like the left-wing judge! Whopper!


----------



## Ottawaman

USED FORD FOR SALE


----------



## Lawrence

That's....Rob [email protected] Ford, The [email protected] ex Mayor of [email protected] Toronto!!! Bitches!!!





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> That's....Rob [email protected] Ford, The [email protected] ex Mayor of [email protected] Toronto!!! Bitches!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


You do NOT want to get on the bad side of Warrior Marg.


----------



## SINC

Lawrence said:


> That's....Rob [email protected] Ford, The [email protected] ex Mayor of [email protected] Toronto!!! Bitches!!!


Is there really a need to post that kind of language? It does nothing to make ehMac any better.


----------



## groovetube

it's an oft repeated phrase here in TO, some of that from Rob Ford himself. But probably more an in joke here.


----------



## Lawrence

SINC said:


> Is there really a need to post that kind of language? It does nothing to make ehMac any better.


It's actually what Rob Ford said on the telephone when he called 911 to complain
about being harassed by the comedian in the video.

It's a slogan that is well known in this part of Canada,
Everyone that reads it knows right away that it refers to Mayor Rob Ford.


----------



## Dr.G.

A TALE OF TWO CITIES (1859), Charles Dickens
''It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.''


----------



## Dr.G.

I hope all you left-wingers out there in ehMacLand are satisfied now. Soon, you may not have Rob Ford to kick around anymore.  

Richard Nixon's Goodbye Speech - YouTube


----------



## Ottawaman

Pinko bike riding facts are biased against Ford Nation Dr G.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ottawaman said:


> Pinko bike riding facts are biased against Ford Nation Dr G.


Yes, those damn pinkoes. Why don't they go back where they belong. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

shades of Larry O'Brien from Ottawa.

Rob Ford and his brother constantly touts all this money they saved Toronto, when in fact it was really, rather insignificant compared to the looming cost of inaction on city transit downtown.

Anyone try to drive, or take transit from yonge/queen west lately? 

THAT, is where the subway needs to go. It's already at crisis levels, just you wait until the massive numbers of condos and housing comes on line soon. In about 5 years or so, its going cost Toronto, very, very dearly. And someone, will have to come in, and clean up that mess and it'll cost Toronto, billions and billions of dollars to fix. And in the meantime, it'll cause severe havoc.

While Rob Ford squanders untold billions north of the city on a subway that will for decades cause an operating loss for the ttc, a major crisis is looming...


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> As much as I dislike Rob Ford, we have too much to do in Toronto to get bogged down in a by-election. Let him go off to the side and finish up with all of his legal troubles while the rest of the city council gets down to the business of getting stuff done.


What is it they were working on getting done again? I've been very happy to be free of their "big thinks" for awhile.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> What is it they were working on getting done again? I've been very happy to be free of their "big thinks" for awhile.


Well there's the overcrowded Yonge subway line and the crumbling Gardiner Expressway that need to be dealt with. 

We also have the Pan-Am games coming up.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Well there's the overcrowded Yonge subway line and the crumbling Gardiner Expressway that need to be dealt with.
> 
> We also have the Pan-Am games coming up.


All of these things are being dealt with at a departmental level. The Yonge Subway crowd can go to hell. "Bawwwww! I moved downtown, sold my car and now I need the government to help me get places!"

Some nice bike lanes on Sherbourne!


----------



## John Clay

Macfury said:


> All of these things are being dealt with at a departmental level. The Yonge Subway crowd can go to hell. "Bawwwww! I moved downtown, sold my car and now I need the government to help me get places!"
> 
> Some nice bike lanes on Sherbourne!


That's a very simplistic way to look at it.

As a driver, I look at efficient public transport as fewer people biking or driving, which gives me an easier time getting around the city.

I'm all for sensible public transportation, both in terms of financial cost and driver sanity. There's a fine balance between the two.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> All of these things are being dealt with at a departmental level. The Yonge Subway crowd can go to hell. "Bawwwww! I moved downtown, sold my car and now I need the government to help me get places!"
> 
> Some nice bike lanes on Sherbourne!


No, if you moved downtown and sold your car, you don't need the Yonge line. It's those people who didn't do that who are being crowded out.

And none of those can be dealt with in a substantive way at the departmental level without more money. How that money comes about is something council needs to decide upon.


----------



## Macfury

John Clay said:


> I'm all for sensible public transportation, both in terms of financial cost and driver sanity. There's a fine balance between the two.


My balance: user-pays actual cost, both road and transit.


----------



## Dr.G.

Ford should have declared today at TO Argos Day .................... and then declare himself mayor for life. It would have been a bold move and then if he could only gather a big enough "security force", he could maintain power. The only thing that would then get him out of his position of power would be a one-on-one confrontation with Marg, Princess Warrior .......... unless he is able to rally the RCMP to his side.

22 Minutes: Marg Princess Warrior vs. The RCMP - YouTube 

22 Minutes: Marg Delahunty Montage - YouTube


----------



## John Clay

Macfury said:


> My balance: user-pays actual cost, both road and transit.


That would make transit prohibitive for many of the blue collar workers, and probably a fair number of white collar workers.

The real cost per ride is far higher than what users pay now.


----------



## Macfury

John Clay said:


> The real cost per ride is far higher than what users pay now.


Yes it is!


----------



## groovetube

And after Robbie had his way with building a subway up where there isn't the ridership, the cost per ride will get even higher!

Odd that those who so staunchly support Rob Ford also talk out the other sides of their mouth. Not, that I'm surprised!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> My balance: user-pays actual cost, both road and transit.


Toronto has one of the lowest (if not the lowest; don't have my stats handy) transit subsidies for public transit. And there is no built-in capital investment as part of this. And both roads and transit benefit residents of the city who do not directly use these services.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Toronto has one of the lowest (if not the lowest; don't have my stats handy) transit subsidies for public transit. And there is no built-in capital investment as part of this. And both roads and transit benefit residents of the city who do not directly use these services.


+1. And agreed on the fact that council must figure out the looming transit crisis, people think it;s bad now, just wait until another mil or so moves into lower downtown when the rest of all those cranes are done...


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And both roads and transit benefit residents of the city who do not directly use these services.


The cost to them should be reflected in the price of goods and services of users. As much as technically possible, users should pay.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The cost to them should be reflected in the price of goods and services of users. As much as technically possible, users should pay.


It's in part reflected in the property taxes of those who live in Toronto and benefit from such services.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It's in part reflected in the property taxes of those who live in Toronto and benefit from such services.


The portion that cannot be allocated should be reflected there. The rest should be user pay.


----------



## groovetube

apparently it hasn't quite sunk in that the ttc has one of the lowest government subsidies.

Wasn't this actually mentioned like many times here?

But hey, skyrocket the fares to 8 bucks a pop. See how that works out!

Libertarians have all the best solutions don't they!


----------



## jimbotelecom

Macfury said:


> My balance: user-pays actual cost, both road and transit.


I'd like to see the transport truck industry pay their fair share of the destruction of Canadian roads and Highways. The corporations get a free ride yet again.


----------



## groovetube

jimbotelecom said:


> I'd like to see the transport truck industry pay their fair share of the destruction of Canadian roads and Highways. The corporations get a free ride yet again.


How about corporations in general.

Seems they got all the big tax breaks while the rest of us wait for this fabled budget balancing.

Here's what Toronto needs. NOW. I bet this, at lest the lower portion would be paying for itself waaay faster than a sheppard subway. In case anyone is worried about, 'balance'.


----------



## jimbotelecom

groovetube said:


> How about corporations in general.
> 
> Seems they got all the big tax breaks while the rest of us wait for this fabled budget balancing.
> 
> Here's what Toronto needs. NOW. I bet this, at lest the lower portion would be paying for itself waaay faster than a sheppard subway. In case anyone is worried about, 'balance'.


No argument there. Corporate welfare bums they are.


----------



## Dr.G.

"A contrite Rob Ford acknowledged he could have done things differently in the matter that caused an Ontario judge to order him to relinquish the Toronto mayoralty, one day after attributing his ouster to left-wing politics.

"Looking back, maybe I could have expressed myself in a different way. To everyone who believes I should have done this differently, I sincerely apologize," Ford said in a prepared statement at a Tuesday afternoon news conference at city hall." 

I think now that he has said he is sorry they should let him be mayor again without any penalties.


----------



## groovetube

easy for you to say, you're provinces away 

he was told what he did, what the law was, he had every opportunity to resolve it. He thumbed his nose, and got bit.

Seeing his statement made me nearly lose my lunch.


----------



## Lawrence

Sorry for using the City's letter head?
Sorry for voting to get yourself off the hook to repay money gained by using city resources for his football team?
Sorry for not listening to other councillors that warned him about the connotations of his actions?
Sorry that he blamed the left for something that was his own fault?
Sorry that he still thinks that he did nothing wrong?
Sorry that he didn't get away with it?


----------



## John Clay

groovetube said:


> easy for you to say, you're provinces away
> 
> he was told what he did, what the law was, he had every opportunity to resolve it. He thumbed his nose, and got bit.
> 
> Seeing his statement made me nearly lose my lunch.


Same here.

Ford would be better placed outside of politics. He has no business running a city.


----------



## groovetube

John Clay said:


> Same here.
> 
> Ford would be better placed outside of politics. He has no business running a city.


At this point it's more about spite for him. Many have noted he's far happier doing his football coach thing.

And many are far happier without him as mayor. Win win!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> easy for you to say, you're provinces away
> 
> he was told what he did, what the law was, he had every opportunity to resolve it. He thumbed his nose, and got bit.
> 
> Seeing his statement made me nearly lose my lunch.


But he said he was sorry .....................


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> Sorry for using the City's letter head?
> Sorry for voting to get yourself off the hook to repay money gained by using city resources for his football team?
> Sorry for not listening to other councillors that warned him about the connotations of his actions?
> Sorry that he blamed the left for something that was his own fault?
> Sorry that he still thinks that he did nothing wrong?
> Sorry that he didn't get away with it?


No, just plain sorry. An honest act of contrition should enable him to get his position reinstated.


----------



## Dr.G.

John Clay said:


> Same here.
> 
> Ford would be better placed outside of politics. He has no business running a city.


For the last time .............. he said he was sorry. This is the same sort of attitude that made Lord Black's return to Canada so difficult.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> At this point it's more about spite for him. Many have noted he's far happier doing his football coach thing.
> 
> And many are far happier without him as mayor. Win win!


Win win would be if he was reinstated as mayor of TO and if he was able to bring the city together in harmony and prosperity.


----------



## Lawrence

Dr.G. said:


> No, just plain sorry. An honest act of contrition should enable him to get his position reinstated.


It didn't work for Nixon


----------



## Lawrence

Marg for Mayor


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Win win would be if he was reinstated as mayor of TO and if he was able to bring the city together in harmony and prosperity.


all he needs to do, is invite don cherry in to speak for his victory celebration.

That'll help.


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> Marg for Mayor


awesome.


----------



## BigDL

*How the Law and Order Agenda Now?*

For all of those upset with the verdict by the Judge in the Rob Ford conflict of interest case how do you feel about the rule of law now?

What do you think of minimum mandatory sentencing now that the Judge gave Rob Ford, in this case, the minimum mandatory sentence that being to be thrown out of the Mayor's Chair for the rest of this term?


----------



## groovetube

I hear a lot of 'it's a stupid law'


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> For all of those upset with the verdict by the Judge in the Rob Ford conflict of interest case how do you feel about the rule of law now?
> 
> What do you think of minimum mandatory sentencing now that the Judge gave Rob Ford, in this case, the minimum mandatory sentence that being to be thrown out of the Mayor's Chair for the rest of this term?


*smacks head* 

A 'minor sentencing' by a provincial judge on a municipal issue has nothing to do with your feigned Conservative 'minimum mandatory sentencing' federally.

Trying to create an issue again are we? Sorry: FAIL


----------



## groovetube

in case it isn't clear: Many conservatives here in Toronto, are very upset at the punishment, saying well it seems not a huge deal (well to them, it isn't but I suppose using city letterhead without approval to solicit funds for your charity from lobbyists is regular business?) but anyway. 

It seems, this minimum sentence isn't sitting well with conservatives here. bigDL is far from the first one to point this out here, or hardly the one to 'create' anything. It's everywhere here.


----------



## BigDL

I am speaking to the issue of discretion being taken away from a Justice. 

In the Rob Ford case after the Judge declared that Mayor Ford had violated the Provincial Act, the only course of action was to impose the minimum mandatory sentence.

You see minimum mandatory sentences are also in law(s), not created, by HSSMC Government™.

I find side stepping the issue of mandatory minimum sentences doesn't add anything.

Not posting is as useful as a reply that adds nothing to the discussion.


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> I am speaking to the issue of discretion being taken away from a Justice.
> 
> In the Rob Ford case after the Judge declared that Mayor Ford had violated the Provincial Act, the only course of action was to impose the minimum mandatory sentence.
> 
> You see minimum mandatory sentences are also in law(s), not created, by HSSMC Government™.
> 
> I find side stepping the issue of mandatory minimum sentences doesn't add anything.
> 
> Not posting is as useful as a reply that adds nothing to the discussion.


I see.

I suppose it adds about as much as this fantasy and completely phoney "trademark"?

*HSSMC Government™ *

Perhaps consider giving it a rest?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The portion that cannot be allocated should be reflected there. The rest should be user pay.


In that case, they should raise Toronto's disproportionately low single-family residential property tax. Why should commercial and industrial property owners subsidize all those services that single family home-owning residents of the city enjoy?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> I am speaking to the issue of discretion being taken away from a Justice.
> 
> In the Rob Ford case after the Judge declared that Mayor Ford had violated the Provincial Act, the only course of action was to impose the minimum mandatory sentence.
> 
> You see minimum mandatory sentences are also in law(s), not created, by HSSMC Government™.
> 
> I find side stepping the issue of mandatory minimum sentences doesn't add anything.
> 
> Not posting is as useful as a reply that adds nothing to the discussion.


it gets tiring being told what you can post, and not post.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> In that case, they should raise Toronto's disproportionately low single-family residential property tax. Why should commercial and industrial property owners subsidize all those services that single family home-owning residents of the city enjoy?


given I'm currently paying both single family -and- commercial property taxes, that would kinda suck. 

cest la vie. I'd be a hypocrite to complain.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> given I'm currently paying both single family -and- commercial property taxes, that would kinda suck.
> 
> cest la vie. I'd be a hypocrite to complain.


Multires is about the same as commercial, so I'm in the same shoes.


----------



## SINC

SINC said:


> Perhaps consider giving it a rest?


Or alternately, some find it therapeutic to nip over to Magic and rant, including using the F bomb several times per post to make them feel like real men.


----------



## groovetube

prices really skyrocketed on this street in the 3+ years after we bought, I was thinking, great! It's a single family 3 storey detached, we just got our phased in assessment, yikes. Like... YIKES.

You'll likely if you haven't already have seen this hike.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> prices really skyrocketed on this street in the 3+ years after we bought, I was thinking, great! It's a single family 3 storey detached, we just got our phased in assessment, yikes. Like... YIKES.
> 
> You'll likely if you haven't already have seen this hike.


Assessments were mailed out just before we took possession, so I haven't seen what it is. I can imagine though.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> In that case, they should raise Toronto's disproportionately low single-family residential property tax. Why should commercial and industrial property owners subsidize all those services that single family home-owning residents of the city enjoy?


Head tax.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Or alternately, some find it therapeutic to nip over to Magic and rant, including using the F bomb several times per post to make them feel like real men.


Is Mac Magic still operating? I remember it as a sinking "lifeboat" for bitter and angry EhMac refugees


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Oy Vey! Mr. Ford seems like quite an unsavoury character. I'm happy that the law has been applied and the ejector seat will be implemented shortly. Who in earth's name would have voted for such a scoundrel? They must be embarrassed now eh.

Skippy - YouTube


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Is Mac Magic still operating? I remember it as a sinking "lifeboat" for bitter and angry EhMac refugees


ah so you read it too do you? :lmao:


----------



## steviewhy

sudo rm -rf /


----------



## groovetube

steviewhy said:


> While still others prefer to stay here and act like prim & proper ladies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


:clap:

Generally I find some people prefer to hide under the skirts of 'the rules' (such as they are, which apply to some but not all).

The very idea of straight talk terrifies them


----------



## Lawrence

SINC said:


> Or alternately, some find it therapeutic to nip over to Magic and rant, including using the F bomb several times per post to make them feel like real men.


You have to admit, That there is less chance that you'll get tagged over there after posting something.
I'll have to admit, It is easier to post video's over there than here too.
They have embedding over there, Much easier than the archaic YouTube system they have on ehMac.

I like my little game conference over there, It's not very demanding,
Couldn't imagine ever being a moderator on ehMac.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> You have to admit, That there is less chance that you'll get tagged over there after posting something.


Seriously... it's still going?


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Seriously... it's still going?


Sure, Just click that little linky in my sig,
Then you can expand out from there.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Sure, Just click that little linky in my sig,
> Then you can expand out from there.


It's still there! Reminds me of what web sites looked like in 1999!!


----------



## bryanc

Macfury said:


> Seriously... it's still going?


It's interesting, isn't it, that you the rugged individualist prefer this more regulated environment to engage in on-line discussion than the more wild-west style tolerated over on MacMagic.

I also prefer a more civilized discussion forum, but I do think there are some around here who could grow a little thicker skin.

The point being, we all like rules, it's just a matter of where we draw the line.


----------



## Ottawaman

Faux outrage has garnered the desired outcome.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> It's interesting, isn't it, that you the rugged individualist prefer this more regulated environment to engage in on-line discussion than the more wild-west style tolerated over on MacMagic.
> 
> I also prefer a more civilized discussion forum, but I do think there are some around here who could grow a little thicker skin.
> 
> The point being, we all like rules, it's just a matter of where we draw the line.


I remember checking it out a long time ago. The Wild West is fine with me, but what fun is Dry Gulch, population 4?


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> It's still there! Reminds me of what web sites looked like in 1999!!


What, You mean like, Sanctuary and Magic?


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> What, You mean like, Sanctuary and Magic?


Where's the Doom II thread??!!


----------



## Sonal

I've popped over there now and then, recognized a few names saying more or less the same things being said over here. (If not by the same people, then by their better behaved analogues.)

It's more active out this way.


----------



## bryanc

Yes, EhMac is certainly a far more active forum. However, should something untoward happen here, it's nice to know Magic is still around and available as a refuge.

I don't particularly care about the difference in the decor.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Where's the Doom II thread??!!


Everything is going IOS these days,
What can I say, More and more people prefer to play with their phones.
The game forum is geared mostly towards iPhone games.

Rumour has it that the nest Mac OS will be more IOS friendly,
Hope that means that I'll be able to play all my iPhone games on my Mac.

Back to the thread...Old Mayor doo doo head.


----------



## Lawrence

Rob Ford on Bike lanes
...




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## bryanc

Lawrence said:


> Rob Ford on Bike lanes




A cyclist getting killed by a car and Ford says "it's their own fault"?!? WTF?!? How did this guy get elected in the first place?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Lawrence said:


> Rob Ford on Bike lanes


Sumo wrestlers are not suited for bicycles.

Skippy - YouTube


----------



## Lawrence

bryanc said:


> A cyclist getting killed by a car and Ford says "it's their own fault"?!? WTF?!? How did this guy get elected in the first place?


Rob Fords stance on cyclists while he was a councillor
(Don't need to watch the whole video to see what his opinion is on cyclists)
...




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Lawrence

Now Doug Ford wants to run for the Mayor's office if Rob Ford can't.
This whole saga is just too rich, I wonder if they'd thought of starting a T.V. show,
They could call it "All in the family"


----------



## groovetube

that was probably already in the cards before this happened. 

bush 1, then bush 2, here, ford 1, now...

ugh.


----------



## Ottawaman

Let's not forget this ticking time bomb...



> A forensic accounting company is auditing his campaign finances. Their opinion on whether he contravened the Municipal Elections Act is also expected in the next two months. If they decide he has, the city’s compliance audit committee could lay charges. One potential penalty under the law is removal from office.



The Rob Ford audit: Tips welcome, auditor says - thestar.com

Perhaps he'll be the first mayor to be kicked out of office twice?


----------



## groovetube

With the way things are going for him, it would not surprise me.

Of course, there's also the 6mil defamation suit currently going, and, something the globe dug up that it remains to be seen what that one goes.

The one thing about being a politician. You don't come into office and jab a hot poker in everyone's eye. You end up with very few friends, and the ones you do have, will likely be waiting for you to fall so they can take your spot. (which, apparently is already happening...) You will have a lot of enemies, who will take a jab the first chance they get. 

Who's fault is that? Rob Ford simply isn't smart enough, to even be a politician, beyond small town councillor stuff.


----------



## Sonal

Doug Ford is a tad bit smarter about playing within the rules. IIRC, I think Doug had advised Rob to pay back the money. (But I may be misremembering.) But if Doug goes for the mayor's job, he can't be an MPP when Ontario goes for an election. Tough choices for DFord.

The ironic part about the defamation suit is that there was likely something fishy in that deal, but Rob had no actual proof of it when he ran about crying corruption and skulduggery. Had he been a little more circumspect in his language, there's be no problem here.


----------



## groovetube

that sums it up really.

Rob simply doesn't understand politics. While some may find that, refreshing, it can also have catastrophic results when refuses to play by the rules. It's been said here many times over, I don't think many in Toronto was against having someone be fiscally responsible. Hell I want someone making sure all that tax money I pay every year is well spent. But Rob Ford isn't up to that job, as much as he tried to carry the banner.

Perhaps he makes a good councillor for his area. I don't know.

But Doug Ford definitely strikes me as the smarter, sneakier version. Though he has run his mouth off rather stupidly, he probably wouldn't step in it the way Robbie did.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> ah so you read it too do you? :lmao:


> :clap:


----------



## BigDL

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Sumo wrestlers are not suited for bicycles.
> 
> Skippy - YouTube


>:clap:


----------



## Dr.G.

Rob Ford's brother won't rule out Toronto mayoralty bid - Toronto - CBC News

Then, in 2014, it would be Ford against Ford.


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Rob Ford's brother won't rule out Toronto mayoralty bid - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> Then, in 2014, it would be Ford against Ford.


Perhaps they could take a lesson from the other Ford.

Lincoln seems to be a proper brand name in political circles, one of the Fords could market under that name brand recognition. 

As likely as not Ford will introduce a revised brand under the brand name Edsel. As perhaps more fitting.


----------



## Lawrence

Love it, An online countdown for Ford's demise as Mayor of Toronto.

Ford Countdown - Mayor Rob Ford Countdown Clock


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> Love it, An online countdown for Ford's demise as Mayor of Toronto.
> 
> Ford Countdown - Mayor Rob Ford Countdown Clock


Like the Phoenix, he shall rise again to even greater glory .............. much like his Lordship, Conrad Black. We shall see.


----------



## Lawrence

Petitioning ROB FORD 
ROB FORD: Demand that Rob Ford accept judge's verdict and step down


Petition by
Tax paying Concerned Citzens
Toronto, Canada


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> Petitioning ROB FORD
> ROB FORD: Demand that Rob Ford accept judge's verdict and step down
> 
> 
> Petition by
> Tax paying Concerned Citzens
> Toronto, Canada


A bunch of commie pinkoes trying to force an elected official out of office. I say he should stage a bloodless coup d'etat and not leave his office. Force the issue. The police force in TO will be behind him, thus getting the OPP behind him ............. and finally, the RCMP will join his cause. With a force like that, let someone try to present him with a paper petition.

"Death before dishonor".


----------



## Lawrence

Dr.G. said:


> A bunch of commie pinkoes trying to force an elected official out of office. I say he should stage a bloodless coup d'etat and not leave his office. Force the issue. The police force in TO will be behind him, thus getting the OPP behind him ............. and finally, the RCMP will join his cause. With a force like that, let someone try to present him with a paper petition.
> 
> "Death before dishonor".


Maybe if he gives the Police the raise they are asking for,
But otherwise, I somehow doubt it that they'd back him.


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> Maybe if he gives the Police the raise they are asking for,
> But otherwise, I somehow doubt it that they'd back him.


"Might makes right", Lawrence. The TO police force will be loyal to Mayor Ford ....... or maybe to his brother, Doug. Still, it should be a classic struggle and Mayor Ford should not go down without a true fight to the finish.


----------



## Sonal

He has a right to an appeal. The appeal is set for January 7th. Let him appeal.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> He has a right to an appeal. The appeal is set for January 7th. Let him appeal.


Let him stand his ground and stand firm, along with all of his many supporters. "Just like a tree standing by the water, we shall not be moved."

902. We Shall Not Be Moved (Traditional American) - YouTube


----------



## Dr.G.

It was interesting listening to the interviews the CBC did of residents in the GTA. They could not find many within the old boundaries of TO who support him, and few outside these boundaries who did not support him. Interesting demographics. Many in his riding wished him well and wanted him to come back to them for their support.

Will Ye No Come Back Again - YouTube


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> It was interesting listening to the interviews the CBC did of residents in the GTA. They could not find many within the old boundaries of TO who support him, and few outside these boundaries who did not support him. Interesting demographics. Many in his riding wished him well and wanted him to come back to them for their support.
> 
> Will Ye No Come Back Again - YouTube


This matches up almost perfectly with the election results. The city is divided.

Saw a stat the other day that 80% of people who voted for Ford believe that he should not have been removed from office.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> This matches up almost perfectly with the election results. The city is divided.
> 
> Saw a stat the other day that 80% of people who voted for Ford believe that he should not have been removed from office.


Yes, they showed a graphic of where his votes came from, and it was like a small block within a bigger block.

Well, if he loses the confidence of his supporters, he is through. We shall see.


----------



## Sonal

Good new, groovetube!

The Downtown Relief Line might be a thing. Metrolinx announces that it's in the next wave of projects. 
Metrolinx | Metrolinx Unveils Next Wave of Big Move Projects


----------



## Sonal

How Rob Ford's love of football has shaped his political career


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> He has a right to an appeal. The appeal is set for January 7th. Let him appeal.


Just because he can appeal...does it make him any more appealing?


----------



## Lawrence

...Mayor Robbie Boo Boo




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

i think having no mayor at all would be preferable to David Miller!


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> How Rob Ford's love of football has shaped his political career


Aren't these the solutions that involve more fares? Am I wrong on this? (I hope)


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

After the disaster Lastman, I was shocked that anyone could even think of voting for a rube like Ford. But lots of strange folk in the burbs combined with voter apathy in the core sometimes delivers disasters. Hopefully a lesson learned. 

Please grow up Toronto. There are so many great things in the city.

And if NHL hockey returns, get a new franchise and let Ford and Cherry cheer for the Loafs.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> After the disaster Lastman, I was shocked that anyone could even think of voting for a rube like Ford.


They voted in the disaster David Miller.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whoa! At this stage Miller time is preferable to the boar. We do need to accommodate minority rights though. Will you be voting for the rolling train wreck again? 

I think it's Chow time.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Whoa! At this stage Miller time is preferable to the boar.


To you perhaps. As poor a mayor as Ford has become, he simply isn't digging the fiscal hole that Miller was. Many Torontonians remain similarly relieved that Mayor Plastic Bags is a distant memory.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Macfury said:


> To you perhaps. As poor a mayor as Ford has become, he simply isn't digging the fiscal hole that Miller was. Many Torontonians remain similarly relieved that Mayor Plastic Bags is a distant memory.


Yes I understand the fiscal hole criticism. However replacing the fiscal hole with another kind of hole has really created a flatulent odour in the city. Surely Toronto can do better.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Whoa! At this stage Miller time is preferable to the boar. We do need to accommodate minority rights though. Will you be voting for the rolling train wreck again?
> 
> I think it's Chow time.


It's funny that some people always refer to this 'disaster', yet, things were actually running quite well! And to top things off, we didn't have robbie boo boo as a total international embarrassment to the city of Toronto.

This 'disaster' that they speak of, has never really been quite defined, other than the fist pumping 'stop the gravy train'! Though, we have really yet to find, this mythical gravy train.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> It's funny that some people always refer to this 'disaster', yet, things were actually running quite well! And to top things off, we didn't have robbie boo boo as a total international embarrassment to the city of Toronto.
> 
> This 'disaster' that they speak of, has never really been quite defined, other than the fist pumping 'stop the gravy train'! Though, we have really yet to find, this mythical gravy train.


Here he is in action, hopefully for the last time. An unmitigated bozo.

Rob Ford shouting match - Politics - CBC Player


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Yes I understand the fiscal hole criticism. However replacing the fiscal hole with another kind of hole has really created a flatulent odour in the city. Surely Toronto can do better.


I hope we can do better. But sadly, this has been an improvement.


----------



## groovetube

not to mention his brother, getting up and doing his usual intimidation routine.

What an embarrassment.


----------



## Rps

Okay so here's a question: I'm in my 60s, so I have followed Toronto politics since my teens ( as a casual interest ) to my adult years ( following as I lived near Toronto ). I can't really think of more than 2 mayors that have been very good to outstanding. So, here's the question:

Who do you think is/was Toronto's best mayor and why? When you consider that more people vote for the mayor of Toronto than any other elected position in this country you would think you would have had some better results....so who's the best....


----------



## Sonal

Depends on whether you count the mayors of the pre-amalgamation cities or not. We've only had 3 mayors in the current city of Toronto: Lastman, Miller and now Ford.

I grew up in North York under Lastman. He was a great mayor for North York. When he took on the post-amalgamation mess, well, it just didn't go well.... not sure that he truly did so badly so much as he publicly gaffed a lot. Ford could learn a lot from him about working with council to achieve consensus.


----------



## Rps

Hi Sonal, yeah I forgot about the amalgamation .... I was thinking anyone who was mayor in general. My grandfather was not a Lamport fan, nor Sewell, and really most mayors didn't hang around long .... I think Eggleton was in power the longest.... but since amalgamation your right, not much choice..... which begs the question do you vote for a different type of mayor in an amalgamated city?


----------



## SINC

Looks like the soap opera will continue:

Rob Ford cleared to run in byelection for Toronto mayor - Toronto - CBC News

Loved one comment that accompanied this story:

*Toronto, someone has to be honest enough to tell you. Your fly is down.*


----------



## Lawrence

Dec 1st 2012 | TORONTO | from the print edition

Model-T Ford breaks down

A city and its government are stuck in gridlock

Very good article :clap:


----------



## Sonal

Rps said:


> Hi Sonal, yeah I forgot about the amalgamation .... I was thinking anyone who was mayor in general. My grandfather was not a Lamport fan, nor Sewell, and really most mayors didn't hang around long .... I think Eggleton was in power the longest.... but since amalgamation your right, not much choice..... which begs the question do you vote for a different type of mayor in an amalgamated city?


He (mostly) predates me, but many good things have been said about Crombie.

Hard to say about a different kind of mayor. I grew up in the inner suburbs, but have a very urbanist mindset, which is why I now live downtown. There are big differences between the two--the issues, the concerns of people, the priorities, how people live, etc. So I don't know about a different kind of mayor, per se, but it's clearly a different kind of city to manage and run. 

For me, this is one of the reasons a very comprehensive transit system is vital for uniting the city. When I was up in the 'burbs, people around me went downtown rarely outside of work--it might be for the Eaton's centre, a few big Mirvish shows, and maybe Taste of the Danforth or the Santa Claus parade. There's considerable more to do in this city, but a) most of it is downtown, b) when you don't live downtown, you hardly hear about it, and c) when you don't live downtown, it's a pain to get there, park, etc. (Especially if you only go for big festivals that are super-crowded.)

But if people could get around more easily, I think that would open up the things to do in this city to more people. And then people would see more value in some of the arts programming that we do in downtown, and would likewise have a better sense of some of the problems here that need attention, because they would have more personal experience in it. And, by the same token, it would get a lot easier to move some of these festivals, programs, etc., out of downtown and into the suburbs because people downtown would not find it a pain to get there via transit.

So I do think that over time, transit will unite the city. Though in the mean time, it will hopefully help people get to work.


----------



## Lawrence

...Goodbye tribute to Rob Ford




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Lawrence

....From a concerned citizen




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## MacDoc

> I grew up in North York under Lastman. He was a great mayor for North York. When he took on the post-amalgamation mess, well, it just didn't go well.


understatement - he didn't go to one single meeting of the amalgamated metro.
Hazel should have mayor of the GTA - different outcome.


----------



## Macfury

MacDoc said:


> understatement - he didn't go to one single meeting of the amalgamated metro.
> Hazel should have mayor of the GTA - different outcome.


Yes. She would have been drummed out of office over her shady land deals instead.


----------



## groovetube

or perhaps the land deals wouldn't have flown in To, much like the one Robbie tired to pull on the parkland behind his house.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> or perhaps the land deals wouldn't have flown in To, much like the one Robbie tired to pull on the parkland behind his house.


Not much parkland behind his house,not much of anything actually unless he wants a piece of the Enbridge yard. lol


----------



## groovetube

Looks like there's quite a strip of it.

Guess he thought he could pull a fast one and get it.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Not much parkland behind his house,not much of anything actually unless he wants a piece of the Enbridge yard. lol


The land in question is beside Ford's house. Marked on top diagram.

Daniel Dale on what happened near the mayor


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The land in question is beside Ford's house. Marked on top diagram.
> 
> Daniel Dale on what happened near the mayor


Ford only offered to buy the parcel of land. Nothing illegal about that.


----------



## groovetube

amazing, how quick some politician's are defended!


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Ford only offered to buy the parcel of land. Nothing illegal about that.


Perhaps, But allowing him to buy a strip of that land would set a precedent,
Then anyone could ask to purchase a piece of a park, That in turn could escalate.

It'd be better to just tell Ford to move if he doesn't like the situation.


----------



## Sonal

Lawrence said:


> Perhaps, But allowing him to buy a strip of that land would set a precedent,
> Then anyone could ask to purchase a piece of a park, That in turn could escalate.
> 
> It'd be better to just tell Ford to move if he doesn't like the situation.


Anyone _can_ ask to purchase of piece of park. In practice, very few do--the TCRA handles maybe 1 or 2 requests like this every year. (Ford used to sit on this Board, which made him more aware of this than the average person.) 

In any case, he made his request based on a stated concern about security. TCRA has never granted a request to buy land for reasons of security. And thus his request was denied. 

Had it been granted, there would have been further public hearings about the matter, and then the TCRA Board would have to vote again, so it's not like there's some shady backroom process here.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> t'd be better to just tell Ford to move if he doesn't like the situation.


That's what he was told.


----------



## SINC

Mayor Rob Ford granted stay of ouster from office (video)


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> Mayor Rob Ford granted stay of ouster from office (video)


Perhaps they just could not find a fork lift big enough to do the job that would also fit through the door.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Mayor Rob Ford granted stay of ouster from office (video)


Despite the back-slapping form the _NOW Magazine_ crowd, it was a foregone conclusion that Ford would continue in office for quite some time until an appeal was launched and ruled on.


----------



## Sonal

Yep. Even on the day he was found guilty, only the truly naive would think that he would not appeal. 

From what I understand, the appeal is a one-shot deal, so we shall see what happens come January.


----------



## groovetube

I suppose Clayton ruby doesn't read the now.


----------



## Sonal

So if the appeal upholds the original decision, what do you all think the best outcome for the city would be? Appoint someone (and who?) or a by-election (remembering that Ford can run)?


----------



## groovetube

I think ultimately Ford winning the appeal will simply give Toronto more time to despise him.

win win really.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I think ultimately Ford winning the appeal will simply give Toronto more time to despise him.
> 
> win win really.


And if he loses the appeal?


----------



## groovetube

I guess it depends on what council decides, byelection, or a replacement until the next election.

Personally, we might as well see the rest of the term and say buh bye after Ford has shown us to the end he isn't capable of being the leader Toronto needs.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And if he loses the appeal?


 Doug Holyday.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Doug Holyday.


There's some speculations as to whether or not council could simply appoint Rob Ford as Mayor.

Holyday's not my personal favourite candidate, but I think he's the best choice, provided that Rob Ford doesn't spend from now until Oct 2014 raving about how council prevented him from running in a by-election.


----------



## Lawrence

This time...We didn't forget the gravy




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> This time...We didn't forget the gravy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


hah. Brilliant! :clap:


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> This time...We didn't forget the gravy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


The edited version of this cartoon shown on television stops with the dog buying the butcher shop--the end scene with the gravy is missing. Also missing is the explosion heard over the end titles.


----------



## Lawrence

...Do's and Don'ts 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Lawrence

...Rob Ford...Just monkeying around


----------



## Lawrence

Evaluating Rob Ford’s Budget Promises



> Save Billions of Dollars
> 
> Phrases like the “gravy train” and “efficiencies, folks” were big hits for Ford on the campaign trail. His campaign promised to achieve $2.05 billion in net cost savings by 2013, without service cuts. (The city budget in 2010 was $9.2 billion, so this would represent a 22 per cent decrease.)
> 
> Lo and behold, there haven’t been billions of dollars in savings, after all. The proposed operating budget for 2013 is $9.4 billion, slightly higher than when David Miller was in office, albeit less than the rate of inflation.


----------



## groovetube

I'm guessing the defensive response will resemble the tums commercial. 'oh! it has calcium! SOmething your body uses anyway!!'...


----------



## Macfury

Good news! Rob Ford will stay in office to serve out the remainder of his term!

Mayor Rob Ford wins appeal, will stay in office - thestar.com


----------



## steviewhy

sudo rm -rf /


----------



## i-rui

there's always the forensic audit of his campaign.....

**fingers crossed**


----------



## Macfury

As disappointing as Rob Ford's leadership has been to me, I would never trade him for David Miller. Having secondary "elections" fought out in court over picayune matters would have set a dangerous precedent.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> As disappointing as Rob Ford's leadership has been to me, I would never trade him for David Miller. Having secondary "elections" fought out in court over picayune matters would have set a dangerous precedent.


agreed.. except he is not disappointing.. he campaigned, then he implemented what he promised and now people hate him? LOL..
just wait 4 years and vote him out..
going through the courts is not democracy..


----------



## macintosh doctor

THANK GOD... FOR DEMOCRACY..

Rob Ford keeps job as mayor - thestar.com


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> agreed.. except he is not disappointing.. he campaigned, then he implemented what he promised and now people hate him? LOL..
> just wait 4 years and vote him out..
> going through the courts is not democracy..


I'm disappointed that he didn't dismantle more of the stinking pesthole that is Toronto City Hall.


----------



## Dr.G.

macintosh doctor said:


> THANK GOD... FOR DEMOCRACY..
> 
> Rob Ford keeps job as mayor - thestar.com


Democracy, 1 and Tryanny 0. :clap::clap::clap:

Now, if we could only get His Lordship, Conrad Black, back into the public eye all would be well with Canada. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> I'm disappointed that he didn't dismantle more of the stinking pesthole that is Toronto City Hall.


watch out.. the 416s is full of socialist that will come after you..
I moved to 905s for that reason was sick of the stupidity..

BTW- I am sick of them blaming 905s for his election.. It was impossible for us to vote for hiim.. I voted for a 90 yr old drinker.. which did worse than Ford..
Hazel broke the law.. having a meeting on her front lawn with her son and the land developers - now that is wrong

Rob Ford - tried to raise money for kids and people went nuts.. really.. come on.

as for Hazel, i would vote again for her.. because the alternatives are way worse..
hence I am contemplating selling my house while it is worth something still.


----------



## Sonal

Clayton Ruby is going to ask for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Sonal said:


> Clayton Ruby is going to ask for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court.


he is wasting time and money.. by the time he gets his say, it will be 2 years and then just vote..


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Clayton Ruby is going to ask for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court.


What an ass. At least he isn't wasting taxpayer money for the appeal.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> What an ass. At least he isn't wasting taxpayer money for the appeal.


+1
again I agree with you.. LOL
what a day- 2 for 2


----------



## Sonal

He's an ass for seeking permission of the Supreme Court to appeal?

Paul Magder and Clayton Ruby Trying to Appeal Ford Decision to Supreme Court | news | Torontoist

The appellate court found that Paul Madger was correct on all the facts--the two courts only differed on their interpretation of the powers of council. (That is, is it broadly defined or narrowly defined?)


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> +1
> again I agree with you.. LOL
> what a day- 2 for 2


I'll mark it on my calendar!


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> He's an ass for seeking permission of the Supreme Court to appeal?
> 
> Paul Magder and Clayton Ruby Trying to Appeal Ford Decision to Supreme Court | news | Torontoist
> 
> The appellate court found that Paul Madger was correct on all the facts--the two courts only differed on their interpretation of the powers of council. (That is, is it broadly defined or narrowly defined?)


Yes, they're both asses--and publicity hounds.


----------



## i-rui

macintosh doctor said:


> going through the courts is not democracy..


the courts are a fundamental part of our democracy. Integrity commissioners are there to hold checks & balances on our politicians. Conflict of interest is a serious breach of the public trust and the way Ford handled the matter exhibited shockingly poor judgment.

Ultimately Ford got off on a technicality (the integrity commissioner should have suspended his pay instead of ordering him to pay back the amount). Everything else was legally sound..... which brings us to the disappointing fact that Ford has still not been reprimanded for the misdeed.


----------



## macintosh doctor

i-rui said:


> the courts are a fundamental part of our democracy. Integrity commissioners are there to hold checks & balances on our politicians. Conflict of interest is a serious breach of the public trust and the way Ford handled the matter exhibited shockingly poor judgment.
> 
> Ultimately Ford got off on a technicality (the integrity commissioner should have suspended his pay instead of ordering him to pay back the amount). Everything else was legally sound..... which brings us to the disappointing fact that Ford has still not been reprimanded for the misdeed.


Well then .. in 2 years be sure not to vote for him again.. there are so many politicians that are breaking rules and laws - but all of a sudden they decide because Ford is doing what he promised they will go after him. That was my point.. its not like he was covering up millions of dollars like Dalton ....


----------



## Sonal

macintosh doctor said:


> Well then .. in 2 years be sure not to vote for him again.. there are so many politicians that are breaking rules and laws - but all of a sudden they decide because Ford is doing what he promised they will go after him. That was my point.. its not like he was covering up millions of dollars like Dalton ....


You're more than welcome to take Dalton McGuinty to court for breaking any rules and laws.

With such a high-publicity case, you could even get someone to represent you pro bono.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Sonal said:


> You're more than welcome to take Dalton McGuinty to court for breaking any rules and laws.
> 
> With such a high-publicity case, you could even get someone to represent you pro bono.


I know when not to waste time and money.. hence I wait for 2 years or less to decide..


----------



## Sonal

macintosh doctor said:


> I know when not to waste time and money.. hence I wait for 2 years or less to decide..


So you'd prefer to be governed by what you consider incompetence and corruption rather than attempt to change it, even though you believe that laws are being broken?


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> So you'd prefer to be governed by what you consider incompetence and corruption rather than attempt to change it, even though you believe that laws are being broken?


I would prefer not to set a precedent in which courts are constantly petitioned to overturn elections. McGuinty is an incompetent, but was voted in by more people than any other candidate. I prefer to endure his incompetence to election by judge.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> I would prefer not to set a precedent in which courts are constantly petitioned to overturn elections. McGuinty is an incompetent, but was voted in by more people than any other candidate. I prefer to endure his incompetence to election by judge.


OMG! - 3 for 3
again +1

also Jean C should behind bars as well then..
the list can go on forever..
that is my point.. do we rule like cuba? or do we rule like democracy?
I rather vote and it counts rather - I vote and someone else decides..
or be like an american, sue because I can..

lets be civil..


----------



## i-rui

back to work for Mayor Ford!


----------



## mrjimmy

I'm fine with the result, as a turfing would only bolster his base. Give him (and their) his two weeks of gloating and bleating about a left wing, undemocratic conspiracy.

Ford's term is like death by a thousand cuts. By the end, he will have sufficiently alienated most of his supporters. Those who are left would vote for the likes of him regardless of who was running.

The big question is, has Mammoliti rejoined the Executive Committee yet?


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> back to work for Mayor Ford!


This is what I had hoped for. He needs to tear up the stinkin' place!


----------



## macintosh doctor

i-rui said:


> back to work for Mayor Ford!


TECHNICALLY THIS PHOTO IS FAR FROM THE TRUTH..
He is an advocate of Subways.. so please repost with LRTs in his hands.. 
as for the CN tower crumbling, it may happen, it is was only good for 30 years when built..
it is 9 years past due LOL

WTF? fighter jets? Canada doesn't have any..


----------



## mrjimmy

mrjimmy said:


> The big question is, has Mammoliti rejoined the Executive Committee yet?


Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti says he might rejoin Mayor Rob Ford



> “I’m doing what I need to do to prove there’s a conspiracy,” by people from “the left,” said Mammoliti, who plans to take his findings to police.



:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti says he might rejoin Mayor Rob Ford
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


good god what a gong show. Really.

it's one thing to have a right leaning mayor that I may not agree with, but this embarrassment of a handful of fools mouthing off like this is just nothing short of foolish.

I agree mr. Jimmy, ford can be afforded more stumble time before the next election.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I agree mr. Jimmy, ford can be afforded more stumble time before the next election.


Much better in the long run.


----------



## i-rui

mrjimmy said:


> Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti says he might rejoin Mayor Rob Ford


from the article :



> Mammoliti hailed Ford’s appeal verdict as a victory for the administration’s cost-cutting agenda but noted that he has given the mayor some stern advice for moving forward.
> 
> “I told him you have to you’ve got to start acting like a mayor, the sideshows have to finish,” he said. *“I said to him you’ve got to start dressing like a mayor as well. I think people want to see that.”*


oh Mammoliti......so wise. Of course Mayor Ford could learn so much from someone with such a keen sense of fashion.... who could forget this ensemble :


----------



## Lawrence

Maybe Ford can explain who paid to get his editorial cartoon collection mounted
and framed in his office, Better not have been taxpayers money. 

https://twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/291590661411577856/photo/1/large


----------



## Lawrence

Ford brothers attack TTC chair Stintz over news stand contract



> When asked by NEWSTALK 1010, Stintz said that there was no way that the mayor could have been blindsided by the move.
> 
> "(The mayor's) staff go through the (TTC Commission briefing) agendas with me and (TTC CEO Andy Byford) in detail and ... at no time was I aware, from the mayor's staff or the mayor himself, that there was any concern about this deal," says Stintz.
> 
> She went on to add that Rob Ford has had ample opportunity to voice his opinions, adding that the news stand contract first came up at TTC meetings in October 2012.
> 
> "I personally left the mayor 2 messages on his cell phone, inviting him to contact me if he had any concerns," she says.
> 
> A lack of communication in the frosty relationship between Stintz and Mayor Ford seems to play into this dispute.
> 
> While both parties admit to being in partial communication through their staff and voicemail messages, the two still have yet to have a direct discussion about the news stand contract.
> 
> Saying that he is disappointed in how the Transit Commission handled awarding the deal, Rob Ford promises to 'look into' the process.


 Lol...What a moroon, He waits until after the deal is done before laying blame on others for his own incompetence.

As for Wynne, That'll be funny, A homophobic Mayor and an openly Gay Premier,
Oh yes, This could be interesting.

.


----------



## groovetube

Ford simply makes it up as he goes. He and his supporters need to invent the boogieman, just to appear relevant.


----------



## groovetube

Bailao pleads guilty to driving over legal limit | CP24.com



> In a statement released Monday afternoon, Toronto Mayor Rob Ford said that he looked forward to continuing to work with Bailao.
> “Coun. Ana Bailao did something wrong and she’s taken full responsibility for her actions,” he said. “I have faith in the justice system and the court’s decision regarding the appropriate consequences.”
> 
> 
> Read more: Bailao pleads guilty to driving over legal limit | CP24.com


I guess it's 'from one convicted drunk driver to another I understand'

wow.


----------



## Lawrence

So, That means she's now a criminal or an ex con,
Wow, Does that mean that criminals can now work at City Hall?


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> So, That means she's now a criminal or an ex con,?


Since the charges for the more serious offense were dropped, neither.


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Since the charges for the more serious offense were dropped, neither.


So I guess she was just a cheap date that Ford dumped by the wayside.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> So I guess she was just a cheap date that Ford dumped by the wayside.


Were they dating?


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Were they dating?


Shame she got sucked in and went to one of those little popup Ford showers.

Hopefully now she really is an EX Con


----------



## Sonal

Campaign audit shows Mayor Rob Ford broke election rules | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


----------



## iMouse

Rules are for commoners. 

If ignorance is bliss, Rob must be a ****ing saintly.


----------



## i-rui

shocking! who could've ever foreseen that Ford broke election campaign rules!?!?


----------



## Dr.G.

iMouse said:


> Rules are for commoners.
> 
> If ignorance is bliss, Rob must be a ****ing saintly.


True. That is the mantra of His Lordship, Conrad Black.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> shocking! who could've ever foreseen that Ford broke election campaign rules!?!?



Isn't 3% just a rounding allotment....

Now that he's 'out' he should man up instead of blaming others.


----------



## iMouse

Fine him the 40 grand, and move on.


----------



## Sonal

kps said:


> Isn't 3% just a rounding allotment....
> 
> Now that he's 'out' he should man up instead of blaming others.


Traditionally, that's not been his style.... he could learn from his brother Doug on that one.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Traditionally, that's not been his style.... he could learn from his brother Doug on that one.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1KtScrqtbc]THE HOLLIES - He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother - YouTube[/ame]

Oh, I thought you said that he could "lean" on his brother. Oops.


----------



## Macfury

This repeated effort by lefty activists to overturn the election through the courts will blow up on them big time. It's starting a very ugly precedent.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> This repeated effort by loefty activists to overturn the election will blow up on them big time. It's starting a very ugly precedent.


Well, maybe righty-activists should have done the same for Miller.

But the ugly precedent is in the repeated breaking of the rules.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Well, maybe righty-activists should have done the same for Miller.
> 
> *But the ugly precedent is in the repeated breaking of the rules.*


I don't know that that has ever dawned on them.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Well, maybe righty-activists should have done the same for Miller.
> 
> But the ugly precedent is in the repeated breaking of the rules.


Nope--if the rules are repeatedly broken, it is not a precedent. It's simply that the right hasn't attempted to overturn elections this way in Canada. It will, soon.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Nope--if the rules are repeatedly broken, it is not a precedent. It's simply that the right hasn't attempted to overturn elections this way in Canada. It will, soon.


Or perhaps that the rules were not broken before?


----------



## iMouse

Or perhaps there wasn't such a self-absorbed idiot in charge before?


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> Or perhaps there wasn't such a self-absorbed idiot in charge before?


There was--his name was David Miller.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Or perhaps that the rules were not broken before?


Please--that's an embarrassing stretch for you Sonal.


----------



## kps

Sonal said:


> Traditionally, that's not been his style.... he could learn from his brother Doug on that one.


Considering how the left likes to harass the man for just breathing air, I'm not surprised he is just a tad defensive. Nevertheless, man up, take a fine and carry on.


----------



## groovetube

Breathing is breaking the law?

Ford breaks the law and people after him for it. It's his own damn fault. If course it didn't help the day he took office trotting out don cherry poking everyone in the eye. Is it any wonder people don't like him?

That fords own damn fault.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Breathing is breaking the law?
> 
> Ford breaks the law and people after him for it. It's his own damn fault. If course it didn't help the day he took office trotting out don cherry poking everyone in the eye. Is it any wonder people don't like him?
> 
> That fords own damn fault.


When it comes to Ford, the leftards continually digging, scrutinizing, harassing after him sure think so. The man is a dart board...pukes like Magder and his ilk make me sick.

I already said he needs to own it, so let him.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Please--that's an embarrassing stretch for you Sonal.


You are right; Hazel McCallion has been in court over the same Municipal Conflict of Interest Act. And some of these mechanisms that have been used against Rob Ford--notably the Integrity Commissioner--are fairly new, as they were introduced by Miller.

But one doesn't have to be a good mayor to follow the rules. And if Miller broke the rules, someone should file a complaint and have him investigated. 



kps said:


> Considering how the left likes to harass the man for just breathing air, I'm not surprised he is just a tad defensive. Nevertheless, man up, take a fine and carry on.


Ford's been defensive about his behaviour even when he was just a councillor. Anytime he is called on something, he first denies it, then when proof is given he blames it on something else. Only when backed into a corner does he admit any wrongdoing.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And if Miller broke the rules, someone should file a complaint and have him investigated.


That sanctimonious attitude will result in a lot of schadenfreude. People will simply investigate everything, hoping to find something that will oust the elected official for whom they didn't vote.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> When it comes to Ford, the leftards continually digging, scrutinizing, harassing after him sure think so. The man is a dart board...pukes like Magder and his ilk make me sick.
> 
> I already said he needs to own it, so let him.


nonsense. Ford came into office and poked a huge stick in anyone he didn't like's eye. He had Don Cherry there to scream about leftards and he hadn't even begun. Ford himself makes the enemies, and drew the battle lines, so hearing him whine that he got his fingers bit, it's a little like seeing some dumb kid run over to a bee's nest (isn't that what city council is like?) and shove a big stick in it, and cry about the angry bees.

Cry me a river. He made his bed, and now he's having to lie in it is all.

If I had to hear one more person mewling about how Ford is the only one to be persecuted, I'd have to step a few hundred yards away to be clear of that 'stench'. If you're going to scream that you're gooder'n everyone else and jam sharp sticks up everyone's arses, you better make damn sure yours is damn clean and wiped.

ha ha. Clink!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> That sanctimonious attitude will result in a lot of schadenfreude. People will simply investigate everything, hoping to find something that will oust the elected official for whom they didn't vote.


Good. All the more reason for elected officials to keep their behaviour within the rules and aboveboard.


----------



## iMouse

Ignorance is Ford.


----------



## Lawrence

iMouse said:


> Ignorance is Ford.


Now available on a Radio Station near you.


----------



## Lawrence

> Mayor Ford back on the air amid new legal trouble
> 
> Mayor Rob Ford returns to the airwaves Sunday afternoon on NEWSTALK 1010's The City with fresh legal troubles on his mind.
> 
> On Friday, an auditor's report found that Ford broke rules in Ontario's Municipal Elections Act by overspending on his 2010 campaign for mayor and accepting corporate cheques.
> 
> The forensic financial audit showed that Ford exceeded the legal limit for campaign expenses by just over $40,000, or roughly 3%.
> 
> It also referred to 11 cheques worth a total of $6,000 that were collected by the Ford campaign from corporate accounts, violating other sections of the Act.
> 
> There is a chance that Rob Ford could be ordered out of office as punishment but such a move would be unprecedented in Ontario.
> 
> City Hall's 3-person Compliance Audit Committee will decide whether to drop the matter or move to punish the mayor at a meeting on February 25th.
> 
> Pursuing non-criminal charges could take as long as a year.
> 
> The City with Mayor Rob Ford airs at 1pm Sunday afternoons on NEWSTALK 1010.
> Local News


Source


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Good. All the more reason for elected officials to keep their behaviour within the rules and aboveboard.


So you want to see a system in which everything is legally investigated, without cause?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> So you want to see a system in which everything is legally investigated, without cause?


That's not what has happened here. 

People had cause, based on Mayor Ford's public actions, his public record in council, or Freedom of Information Act requests for other public documents. With cause comes an investigation. With the result of an investigation demonstrating problems comes possible legal consequences.

Personally, I thought transparency in government was a good thing.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> That's not what has happened here.
> 
> People had cause, based on Mayor Ford's public actions, his public record in council, or Freedom of Information Act requests for other public documents. With cause comes an investigation. With the result of an investigation demonstrating problems comes possible legal consequences.
> 
> Personally, I thought transparency in government was a good thing.


FOI will become the buzzword of the day. In the case of this campaign finance request, it came from two loser lefty activists who were simply fishing. They found a tiny oversight and hoped to overturn the election on it. I suppose enough fleas could eventually hinder an elephant, but this behaviour is going to change even the ease of filing FOI requests.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> FOI will become the buzzword of the day. In the case of this campaign finance request, it came from two loser lefty activists who were simply fishing.


Actually, it seems to have started with a Globe and Mail article.

But I did a bit of digging, and it turns out people made campaign audit requests of Mayor Miller too. It didn't turn into an audit, presumably because nothing was overtly suspicious.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Actually, it seems to have started with a Globe and Mail article.
> 
> But I did a bit of digging, and it turns out people made campaign audit requests of Mayor Miller too. It didn't turn into an audit, presumably because nothing was overtly suspicious.


You just need to dig far enough to find something you don't like. This tactic will now become de rigeur with nuisance filings and requests dogging every candidate.


----------



## groovetube

Anyone find it somewhat puzzling why the righteous right, who once trumpeted honestly, openness, and transparency, are now furiously backtracking on this? 

One of the problems with sticking a finger in your opponent's eyes, and calling or certainly alleging fraud on the parts of your opponents, pointing out the near thievery of 'the left' every chance you get, that someone at some point will take you up on your taunts and see just how honest you are!

I'm sorry, but the whining is rather hilarious. WHat are we learning? That Ford is just as sneaky and dishonest as the people he alleges are. Perhaps, he should either learn to keep his big mouth shut, or clean up his act.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> You just need to dig far enough to find something you don't like. This tactic will now become de rigeur with nuisance filings and requests dogging every candidate.


From what I can tell, campaign audit requests are already de rigeur and do seem to follow every candidate. 

Currently, the process is that it goes to a committee, who evaluates the request, then determines whether or not an audit is justified--that is to filter out nuisance filings. If the audit reveals irregularities, then the committee decides if it goes to legal proceedings. From there, it gets decided if this was an honest mistake or not.

This is nothing new, except perhaps that most people running for Mayor seem to be aware that their actions will be scrutinized and attempt to stay within the lines.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Anyone find it somewhat puzzling why the righteous right, who once trumpeted honestly, openness, and transparency, are now furiously backtracking on this?


Very true. What else are we supposed to do with transparency in government except use it to hold people accountable for their actions?


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> This is nothing new, except perhaps that most people running for Mayor seem to be aware that their actions will be scrutinized and attempt to stay within the lines.


It will be "nothing new" full steam ahead from now on. Just as well, I suppose, since I would rather see mayors occupied with defending themselves, than to conceive some big, costly ideas.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> It will be "nothing new" full steam ahead from now on. Just as well, I suppose, since I would rather see mayors occupied with defending themselves, than to conceive some big, costly ideas.


It's also nothing new in the past. Barbara Hall got into campaign expense hot water too. (Though the process was different then; council had to approve the audit.)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It's also nothing new in the past. Barbara Hall got into campaign expense hot water too. (Though the process was different then; council had to approve the audit.)


I'm not referring just to the audit procedure. I'm referring to grasping at all straws to overturn an election.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I'm not referring just to the audit procedure. I'm referring to grasping at all straws to overturn an election.


I don't think that's anything new either, but given that there are more methods of ensuring transparency now than before, they will continue to be put to use.

But a bit of poking around shows that cases filed related to the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act go back a long way.... Hazel McCallion was found guilty of one back in 1982, but the courts determined that it was a bona fide error in judgement. 

None of this is new.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Very true. What else are we supposed to do with transparency in government except use it to hold people accountable for their actions?


The irony here is dare I say it, almost sweet. There have been plenty of examples of others getting their hands burnt over breaking the rules, and since the righteous ones came in trumpeting more accountability, suddenly being held accountable is being framed as tossing out someone you didn't want in office.

You just can't make this stuff up can you.

I'm all for keeping them accountable. I don't care if it's ford or someone I may have voted for. But after ford pulled what he did, I'm laughing.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I don't think that's anything new either, but given that there are more methods of ensuring transparency now than before, they will continue to be put to use.
> 
> But a bit of poking around shows that cases filed related to the Municipal Conflict of Interest Act go back a long way.... Hazel McCallion was found guilty of one back in 1982, but the courts determined that it was a bona fide error in judgement.
> 
> None of this is new.


Individual cases are not new, transparency is good and rules should be followed. What is new is the degree to which they are being tested here.

However, it won't be new any longer.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Individual cases are not new, transparency is good and rules should be followed. What is new is the degree to which they are being tested here.
> 
> However, it won't be new any longer.


Yes, surely it will be a terrible thing for the electorate to actively engage in holding their elected officials accountable for following the rules. What will become of democracy?


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Yes, surely it will be a terrible thing for the electorate to actively engage in holding their elected officials accountable for following the rules. What will become of democracy?


The legal attacks will become more and more esoteric and unfounded. Democracy will be significantly hindered if each term in office becomes mired in fishing expeditions and an endless series of exploratory court cases. Again, not so much a problem for me, but certainly for those expecting their candidate to follow through on their campaign promises.


----------



## groovetube

If their campaign promises also include honesty and respect, then Ford has failed on all counts. Quite a few politicians have counted on the apathy of voters to simply let them get away with it.

Ford s simply getting his comeuppance for calling other frauds and thieves. Cry me a boatload.

But your basic understanding of the legal system is embarrassing if you think one could simply bring about an action regardless of it's validity.


----------



## Lawrence

I very much doubt Ford will get thrown out of office for this little bit of election fraud,
If anything he has just hurt his chances of ever being re-elected in the next election.

I'm all for what he is doing, The more controversy the better.

:clap:


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> I very much doubt Ford will get thrown out of office for this little bit of election fraud,


I don't even think it's deliberate fraud. Ford is just not attentive enough to these things. He's a big, well-meaning goof when it comes to these things.

Still, I am grateful he has provided an antidote to the David Miller years.


----------



## i-rui

I doubt Ford can count past 20 with his socks still on, let alone the $40,000+ he was over.....

But ignorance of the law is not an excuse.... and to clarify it wasn't just the overspending, it was illegal contributions and spending before it was legal to campaign. The triple threat!


----------



## groovetube

A big well meaning goof, who seems to get caught breaking the rules every few months. Doncha just love how breaking the law is just ok 'cause he's just a fun lovin good ole boy? 

That might fly in a small town, but running the largest city in the country simply takes more intelligence, and experience. None of which Ford has. In other words, he would be fired in any other job for being incompetent.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I don't even think it's deliberate fraud. Ford is just not attentive enough to these things. He's a big, well-meaning goof when it comes to these things.


I agree. I don't think most of Ford's troubles have been out of deliberate actions.

It would be refreshing, though, if when confronted with issues that he'd admit that he'd make a mistake (instead of denying it in often laughable ways) and act quickly to right it.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It would be refreshing, though, if when confronted with issues that he'd admit that he'd make a mistake (instead of denying it in often laughable ways) and act quickly to right it.


I agree.


----------



## i-rui

eh tu Giorgio?

Committee votes to bring in prosecutor against Mammoliti | 680News


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> eh tu Giorgio?
> 
> Committee votes to bring in prosecutor against Mammoliti | 680News


Oh, like anyone expected any different from Mammoliti?


----------



## Lawrence

Sonal said:


> Oh, like anyone expected any different from Mammoliti?


It's coming down like a house of cards.


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> It's coming down like a house of cards.


The trouble with this crew, which isn't much different than the nasty cons of Ottawa, is that they just aren't smart enough to cover their tracks, or keep as hidden from the public like Harper and co did. The whole quietly let it out that you're convicted right near xmas thing.

These jokers are not only crass, but just plain incompetent for the jobs.


----------



## med8or

Sonal said:


> I agree. I don't think most of Ford's troubles have been out of deliberate.


I disagree. I think these are VERY deliberate. He had a lot of advisers along the way- he was just hoping he wouldn't get caught. There were several questionable issues with his campaign both for Mayor and as councillor. Ford has always felt a certain level of entitlement and that the rules didn't apply to him (from personal experience).

Toronto got what they voted for. None of this should be a surprise to anyone.

Mammoloti needs to be turfed as well, IMO.


----------



## groovetube

med8or said:


> I disagree. I think these are VERY deliberate. He had a lot of advisers along the way- he was just hoping he wouldn't get caught. There were several questionable issues with his campaign both for Mayor and as councillor. Ford has always felt a certain level of entitlement and that the rules didn't apply to him (from personal experience).
> 
> Toronto got what they voted for. None of this should be a surprise to anyone.
> 
> Mammoloti needs to be turfed as well, IMO.


I agree with you. You don't work in these positions with advisors etc., and sleepwalk through it like that. That's just either not true, or absolute stumbling incompetence.

It's hard to believe that his admirers would be so quick to write this stuff after seeing their reactions to anyone they don't like in similar shoes.

And we wonder why we get politicians who pull these stunts? It's because they can, and they'll have their legion of fans who will rabidly excuse their incompetence.


----------



## Macfury

Here's a nice article on the lefty toadstool who is behind all of the recent judicial activism--and the reason for his antagonism. Poor blighter's contract for his sort-of-job as "vice-chair of the Toronto Library Board" was not renewed when Ford came into office:

Adam Chaleff-Freudenthaler is a thorn in Mayor Rob Ford’s side: DiManno | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

I knew there -had- to be a reason or someone to blame for all of Ford's blunders.

Phew! It all becomes clear now!


----------



## mrjimmy

Ford's foot soldier busy bolstering his (and their) image:

Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti arranged $200,000 loan through developer he helped | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

I read rob 'mouth off' ford has had to apologize for doing what he does best, tearing others down.

And he whines when people go after him...


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> I read rob 'mouth off' ford has had to apologize for doing what he does best, tearing others down.
> 
> And he whines when people go after him...


That's what bullies do.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> That's what bullies do.


yeeeees.... they do! :baby:


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I read rob 'mouth off' ford has had to apologize for doing what he does best, tearing others down.


I'm sure he was like a petulant little child; head down, hands clasped tightly together, body swaying, mumbling...

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Congratulations to Rob Ford for having passed the last hurdle placed in his way by toadstool activists.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Congratulations to Rob Ford for having passed the last hurdle placed in his way by toadstool activists.


I'm relieved actually. If Ford was ousted it ran the risk of him achieving martyr status. Now he can continue to be the oafishly inept mis-manager he is and be ousted by more 'conventional means' next election.

Olivia!


----------



## groovetube

Agreed. let him wear the "I saved y'all 60 bucks!'.


----------



## Sonal

My favourite outcome of this is how Mammoliti is crying that it's unfair because he's being audited and Mayor Ford is not.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> My favourite outcome of this is how Mammoliti is crying that it's unfair because he's being audited and Mayor Ford is not.


Calling Mammoliti a fair-weather friend would be high praise indeed.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> My favourite outcome of this is how Mammoliti is crying that it's unfair because he's being audited and Mayor Ford is not.


Happy to see Mammoliti shifting his 'fluid' support back behind Ford. Guilt and incompetence by association and all that. Between the audit and the shifty loans from the developer Ford might be looking for a new toady right about now. 

Wonder what the straw will be that will finally turn the tide of his 'base' (and I do mean...) support.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Calling Mammoliti a fair-weather friend would be high praise indeed.


Yes, indeed. We know Mammoliti better than many.

I didn't mention it at the time due to the mini-media furor, but the Toronto Star article that mrjimmy posted last week about developer loans to Mammoliti quotes me. (I was a bit discombobulated at the time... reporters don't normally call me.)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Yes, indeed. We know Mammoliti better than many.
> 
> I didn't mention it at the time due to the mini-media furor, but the Toronto Star article that mrjimmy posted last week about developer loans to Mammoliti quotes me. (I was a bit discombobulated at the time... reporters don't normally call me.)


You acquitted yourself well, Sonal.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> Happy to see Mammoliti shifting his 'fluid' support back behind Ford. Guilt and incompetence by association and all that. Between the audit and the *shifty loans from the developer* Ford might be looking for a new toady right about now.
> 
> Wonder what the straw will be that will finally turn the tide of his 'base' (and I do mean...) support.


The loans weren't shifty. 

The fact that he went asking for loans was not smart.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> The loans weren't shifty.
> 
> The fact that he went asking for loans was not smart.


That's more my point. It shows poor judgement. His lack of character has already been taken care of.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> You acquitted yourself well, Sonal.


Thank you.

I think that was my crash-course in media training.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> That's more my point. It shows poor judgement. His lack of character has already been taken care of.


Mammoliti's many bizarre antics in council have been well-known for a long time; Ford was a councillor for 10 years, he had to have seen that.

The fact that Mayor Ford gave Mammoliti any credence and put him on his executive is what brought on the media attention to Mammoliti, but he's always been like this.

So who shows the least judgement here? The guy who has always acted like a fool, or the guy who picks him for his executive committee?


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Mammoliti's many bizarre antics in council have been well-known for a long time; Ford was a councillor for 10 years, he had to have seen that.
> 
> The fact that Mayor Ford gave Mammoliti any credence and put him on his executive is what brought on the media attention to Mammoliti, but he's always been like this.
> 
> So who shows the least judgement here? The guy who has always acted like a fool, or the guy who picks him for his executive committee?


I think most will agree that there is an abundance of poor judgement coming from that camp. I say keep it coming!


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> I think most will agree that there is an abundance of poor judgement coming from that camp. I say keep it coming!


Recent polls suggest otherwise; last Forum poll has 48% approving of Ford.

I don't like him, but in no way do I think he's likely to be democratically ousted in the next election based on what he's doing now.


----------



## groovetube

It'll come down to if a real candidate with the goods to show up Ford enters the next race. If he or she did, Ford will have quite the fight to keep his job.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> It'll come down to if a real candidate with the goods to show up Ford enters the next race. If he or she did, Ford will have quite the fight to keep his job.


Yes, exactly.

So far, only Olivia Chow polls as beating him. And no one knows if she's running.


----------



## groovetube

At this point I'd even vote for john tory. I have no problem with even a moderately conservative candidate for mayor, I just want one with brains, and without the useless mean streak the further right that Ford seems to subscribe to has. Ultimately, one that knows how to work with council, and understand that each councillor was elected by their ward to represent them. That little important fact seems to escape Ford, who thinks being mayor allows him to be a bully (a familiar theme it seems). So let him finish his term. Let's see what his "accomplishments" will be. Likely he'll blame his inadequacies on others, and it'll be up to the electorate if they want to buy it.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Recent polls suggest otherwise; last Forum poll has 48% approving of Ford.
> 
> I don't like him, but in no way do I think he's likely to be democratically ousted in the next election based on what he's doing now.


I guess I should have said _most thinking people_...

beejacon


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Yes, exactly.
> 
> So far, only Olivia Chow polls as beating him. And no one knows if she's running.


I bet she will run. How could you pass up the opportunity to toss that arrogant train wreck out of office?

Enough time will have passed for her to jump back in to politics. Also, as the election looms closer, like the lead up in an action film, Toronto will need it's 'Batman' to snuff out the villain.


----------



## Sonal

mrjimmy said:


> I bet she will run. How could you pass up the opportunity to toss that arrogant train wreck out of office?


By taking a chance on the NDP continuing to be relevant federally for the first time in history....

Still, it may depend on Mulcair. If Jack Layton were still alive, I don't think Olivia Chow would even consider leaving federal politics.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford under fire, again, over football team claims | Posted Toronto | National Post

I don't have any comment as to the specifics here, but you would think, given what has just happened, that just a little care would have been taken -not- to solicit those on the lobbyist list. It isn't like it's rocket science.

But then, this is, Rob 'screw you' Ford.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> By taking a chance on the NDP continuing to be relevant federally for the first time in history....
> 
> Still, it may depend on Mulcair. If Jack Layton were still alive, I don't think Olivia Chow would even consider leaving federal politics.


The federal NDP is still running on the fumes of Jack Layton's personality. Applying Mulcair's sledgehammer "charisma" to an election would just about wipe out those memories.


----------



## mrjimmy

Nice way to start the day:

Olivia Chow says she’s ‘considering’ a run for Toronto mayor | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

Saw that on twitter.

The reaction from Doug Ford, 'she's no Jack Layton', was predictable. Hopefully they continue with the dumb as a bag of rocks responses.


----------



## mrjimmy

It seems that our nitwit Mayor even screws up the things he holds dear:

Catholic school board investigating Rob Ford’s ‘inaccurate’ Sun News interview | Toronto Star


----------



## Lawrence

Rob Ford blasted by Sarah Thomson for alleged crude comment | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun





> *Rob Ford blasted by Sarah Thomson for alleged crude comment*
> 
> BY DON PEAT ,CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF
> FIRST POSTED: FRIDAY, MARCH 08, 2013 06:36 AM EST | UPDATED: FRIDAY, MARCH 08, 2013 08:15 AM EST
> 
> Former mayoralty candidate Sarah Thomson posted this picture to Facebook, where she commented:"Thought it was a friendly hello to Toronto Mayor Rob Ford at the CJPAC Action Party tonight until he suggested I should have been in Florida with him last week because his wife wasn't there. Seriously wanted to punch him in the face. Happy International Women's Day!"
> 
> 
> 
> *TORONTO* - Mayor Rob Ford is under fire from an old election foe for his alleged party antics that included grabbing her butt.
> 
> Sarah Thomson is now demanding an apology from Ford for the incident.
> 
> It first came to light when Thomson took to Facebook in the wee hours of Friday morning to blast Ford for making a crude comment to her and touching her inappropriately at a Thursday night party held by the Canadian Jewish Political Affairs Committee.
> 
> The Women's Post publisher and former 2010 mayoralty candidate also posted a photo of her with a rough-looking Ford - the mayor's eyes were closed and he had a large stain on his shirt.
> 
> On Newstalk 1010's Moore in the Morning on Friday, Thomson accused Ford of touching her inappropriately after the photo was snapped.
> 
> "He grabbed my ass and I'm thinking what the heck is going on with him? I was so mad about it because this is somebody who knows how much I do for this city," Thomson told radio host John Moore.
> 
> She said she told Ford's staff to remove him from the room.
> 
> "I went to his handlers and said, 'Get him out of here,'" she said.
> 
> Thomson said Ford "completely crossed the line" Thursday night.
> 
> "He needs help if he's doing that to someone like me," she said.
> 
> "What he said to me and what he did is wrong."
> 
> Thomson said she's not planning on taking Ford to court over the issue.
> 
> "I'd like an apology," she said.
> 
> "He needs to address it."
> 
> Thomson first raised the issue on her Facebook page just after midnight.
> 
> *"Thought it was a friendly hello to Toronto Mayor Rob Ford at the CJPAC Action Party tonight until he suggested I should have been in Florida with him last week because his wife wasn't there," Thomson wrote on Facebook. "Seriously wanted to punch him in the face. Happy International Women's Day!"*
> 
> By 6 a.m. Friday the photo had more than 300 comments on it and had been shared several hundred times.
> 
> Thomson went on to add a few other remarks to the photo.
> 
> "I've never seen him so out of it. I know I shouldn't be pissed but after spending 10 months on the campaign trail together you expect a little bit of respect at the very least for my husband," she wrote.
> 
> She told another Facebook user to "guess where his hand was in this picture? I must go shower...."
> 
> "Anyone who talked to him tonight could see he was out of it - I'm venting because I thought on the respect for women level he was better than that," she told another Facebook commenter.
> 
> But then Thomson wrapped up her comments with what could be a fairly incendiary allegation.
> 
> "Is grabbing someone ass assault?" she wrote.
> 
> Mayor Ford's office has yet to respond to a request for comment about Thomson's claims.
> 
> Ford's Twitter account also mentioned the CJPAC party.
> 
> "Great night meeting some wonderful ppl @CJPAC action party" was posted on the mayor's official Twitter page just before midnight.
> 
> Thomson faced off against Ford in the 2010 municipal election but dropped out before Election Day to throw her support behind his biggest rival - George Smitherman.
> 
> She is currently the chair of the Toronto Transit Alliance.


----------



## i-rui

> The Women's Post publisher and former 2010 mayoralty candidate also posted a photo of her with a rough-looking Ford - the mayor's eyes were closed and *he had a large stain on his shirt*.


lol

what a mess.


----------



## Macfury

And yet, still a better mayor than Miller. Such a sad state for Toronto.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> And yet, still a better mayor than Miller. Such a sad state for Toronto.


To you and some 905ers maybe...


----------



## eMacMan

Hizoner only figures into this gaffe in a figurative way.

Yahoo! News Canada - Latest News & Headlines


----------



## iMouse

eMacMan said:


> Hizoner only figures into this gaffe in a figurative way.


He does look like he would slur "he's on her".


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> lol
> 
> what a mess.


My god. The mayor of the biggest city in Canada. In fact 4th largest in North America.

What mess, but also what an embarrassment.


----------



## i-rui

*Grabba the Butt*


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> *Grabba the Butt*


:lmao:

Get Jabba a white shirt (with a stain on it) from Mr. Big N' Tall and you've got yerself a spittin' image!


----------



## groovetube

So the latest is, Clayton Ruby will be asking supreme court to hear an appeal on the conflict of interest case brought against rob ford.

Perhaps this was brought on because rob ford is demanding they pay his legal fees, but personally, I think the point has been made, ford should be left to finish his own meltdown so we can get a real mayor in the next election, which can't come soon enough.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford says Sheppard subway a priority over relief line - Toronto - CBC News

I wonder how those who support his supposed 'respect for taxpayers' by spending billions and billions on a total waste of money, while completely ignoring the near crisis in Toronto transit.

This will end up costing everyone, a really huge amount of money in the end.


----------



## iMouse

Bullies love it when someone else pays.

And Olivia is breathing down his neck, from the front.


----------



## groovetube

It's interesting that I don't see people defending the guy anymore. (or the fed cons much anymore either for that matter).

This whole the right spends less and has smaller government and respects tax payer's money house cards is coming right down.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> It's interesting that I don't see people defending the guy anymore. (or the fed cons much anymore either for that matter).


You aren't reading the comments section of The Sun, are you?


----------



## iMouse

Sonal said:


> You aren't reading the comments section of The Sun, are you?


Even if he were, he would never admit to that gaff. 

And The Star has declared Rob persona non grata.


----------



## groovetube

Well I rarely read either, but there is a Facebook page that hilariously highlights the sun news commenters.

Good for a chuckle.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford says Star story about intoxication 'an outright lie' - Toronto - CBC News

It seems to me, that he's only going to be able to cry about these being lies so many times. Even supporters are going to start questioning things eventually. Well some of them will...


----------



## Lichen Software

groovetube said:


> Rob Ford says Star story about intoxication 'an outright lie' - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> It seems to me, that he's only going to be able to cry about these being lies so many times. Even supporters are going to start questioning things eventually. Well some of them will...


Yes, that is the essence of a smear campaign. Say it loud enough and long enough and from as many of your supporters as possible and then someone will believe it.

Of course some of the guests indicated that he did not even have a drink. 

I don't know where this actually is, but I cannot hep but think that if it were anyone else, it would be a non story.


----------



## Macfury

Lichen Software said:


> Yes, that is the essence of a smear campaign. Say it loud enough and long enough and from as many of your supporters as possible and then someone will believe it.
> 
> Of course some of the guests indicated that he did not even have a drink.
> 
> I don't know where this actually is, but I cannot hep but think that if it were anyone else, it would be a non story.


Yes, this sort of half-reporting and innuendo is really a new low for _The Star_.


----------



## i-rui

I doubt it's a smear campaign. There is certainly past evidence that indicates he has a substance abuse problem (DUI in florida, drunk & thrown out at Leaf Game for verbally abusing fans, 911 domestic disturbance calls), and his past M.O. has always been to deny, deny, deny, until confronted with undeniable proof.


----------



## Sonal

The thing is, based on the known history of events like his drunk driving charge and that time he was drunk at a hockey game and telling someone to send his wife back to Iran where she could be raped, it hardly strains credulity to assert that maybe the Mayor has a drinking problem.

In any case, the original Star story is much more detailed than that CBC link. And one councillor--who helped organize the even and who has largely been on Ford's side--does confirm that another organizer approached him about getting Rob Ford to leave, and that the councillor himself asked Ford's chief of staff to get him out of here. The councillor won't say why, but if Mayor Ford wasn't drunk, and his behaviour still warranted being asked to leave, well....
Rob Ford: ‘Intoxicated’ Toronto mayor asked to leave military ball | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

Lichen Software said:


> Yes, that is the essence of a smear campaign. Say it loud enough and long enough and from as many of your supporters as possible and then someone will believe it.
> 
> Of course some of the guests indicated that he did not even have a drink.
> 
> I don't know where this actually is, but I cannot hep but think that if it were anyone else, it would be a non story.


i-rui, Sonal is right. There is a growing list of incidents, more than just the star's reporting, that indicates a real pattern.

And yes, if it were someone else, it may be a non story. But this is the Mayor of Toronto, not only is that different, but we're also talking about someone who loves sticking a hot poker in anyone who disagrees with him's eye.

I have no sympathy for people going after him. He brought it on himself.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> The thing is, based on the known history of events like his drunk driving charge and that time he was drunk at a hockey game and telling someone to send his wife back to Iran where she could be raped, it hardly strains credulity to assert that maybe the Mayor has a drinking problem.
> 
> In any case, the original Star story is much more detailed than that CBC link. And one councillor--who helped organize the even and who has largely been on Ford's side--does confirm that another organizer approached him about getting Rob Ford to leave, and that the councillor himself asked Ford's chief of staff to get him out of here. The councillor won't say why, but if Mayor Ford wasn't drunk, and his behaviour still warranted being asked to leave, well....
> Rob Ford: ‘Intoxicated’ Toronto mayor asked to leave military ball | Toronto Star


I believe this Canadian academic has the best advice for the good Mayor of your fair city 



+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.




.


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> It seems to me, that he's only going to be able to cry about these being lies so many times.
> 
> Even supporters are going to start questioning things eventually. Well some of them will...


I read that with coffee this morning.

I am not a fan of Rob the bully, but everything they printed was 'this person said', 'that person said'. And to a man/woman, all of them without the gonads/ovaries to allow their name to be used, for "political reasons".

I get the distinct whiff of fear of litigation. This guy is a mean bugger when cornered.

Oh, my search of the LCBO site fails to find a mickey-sized Prince Russian vodka.


----------



## Sonal

Further detail from one of the reporters who wrote the story.

Behind the Rob Ford story | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Further detail from one of the reporters who wrote the story.
> 
> Behind the Rob Ford story | Toronto Star


Wow. This is beginning to sound far bigger than simply a handful of lefties out to get him. It appears we're looking at a car accident in slo mo.


----------



## SINC

Sonal said:


> Further detail from one of the reporters who wrote the story.
> 
> Behind the Rob Ford story | Toronto Star


So newspapers are using video now to try and spur sales with sensational stuff carefully staged? I suppose it beats the newsboy on the corner hollering 'EXTRA, read all about it'.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Man he's a drunkard too?!?!🐷🐷🐷🐷


----------



## iMouse

It helps him live with himself.


----------



## groovetube

Ford's drinking problem is not new news here in Toronto, it's pretty hard to miss.

I'm not sure how this is 'carefully staged'. Besides, ford picked a fight with the star, so I doubt they're going to be doing him any favors.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You would have thought someone could have learned from Ralph Klein? But no!
🐖


----------



## eMacMan

If he does not have a drinking and/or drug problem, then his behaviour would seem to indicate brain damage.

Either way if it impairs his ability to do his job, then it is up to TO voters to show him the door.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

At Ford - Quality is job 1!

🐖


----------



## iMouse

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> At Ford - *Quantity* is job 1!
> 
> 🐖


I fixed your obvious typo. 

*Second thought. * This line fairly screams for a photochop of the mayor holding a fifth of Prince vodka.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

imouse said:


> i fixed your obvious typo. :d
> 
> *second thought. * this line fairly screams for a photochop of the mayor holding a fifth of prince vodka.


🐷🐷🐷


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Ford's drinking problem is not new news here in Toronto, it's pretty hard to miss.


Yeah, I remember the photos from St Patrick's day a year ago that started this investigation; he was at a bar down the street from where I was living. And it's one of several that have popped up.

But between this:
‘Go ahead take me to jail,’ Rob Ford told police | Toronto Star

and this:
Ford admits lying to media about drunken outburst - Toronto - CBC News

EDIT to add: Oh, and this:
Questions raised over 911 calls to Ford's home | Metro

Plus various photos and reports that citizens have made over time.... well like I said, it hardly strains credulity.


----------



## iMouse

Sorry, you have me at a disadvantage.

I don't communicate in Skippy.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

iMouse said:


> Sorry, you have me at a disadvantage.
> 
> I don't communicate in Skippy.


Excellent work. Another free market entrepreneur caught at the trough.


----------



## iMouse

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Excellent work. Another free market entrepreneur caught at the trough.


Really? 

All that in 3 symbols? :clap:

And I thought Japanese cuneiform was puzzling.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

It's all in the symbols. The writing is on the wall!


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Personally I prefer my back ribs slow roasted a minimum of 5 hours. 🐷


----------



## mrjimmy

The sideshow is becoming the main event. I have the feeling the next misstep will be fabulous!


----------



## SINC

Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

ahhh, Blatch never fails you. Imagine being shocked that a politician with a drinking problem, with as many controversies and drinking related incidents involving police, not once but many many times, gets picked up in the press.

In a newspaper, that Ford shoved a hot poker into no less. 


Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa! They dun liiike me.


Really? :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> The sideshow is becoming the main event. I have the feeling the next misstep will be fabulous!


With these sorts of things, you generally will one day wake up to something just fantastic.

The best part is, all the furious hand waving of 'nothing to see here', will look hilaaaaarious at some point


----------



## Sonal

Unrelated to the alleged alcohol abuse....
Rob Ford: Parents at school where Toronto mayor coaches football meet to discuss if they want him to continue | Toronto Star

Rationale is a combination of the intense media attention and the fact that Mayor Ford has a habit of portraying the many other excellent programs at this school in a bad light--i.e., the reason for the turnaround is not solely due to football, and Mayor Ford frequently speaks as if it is.


----------



## Sonal

Also, Cllr Ainslie (Ford-supporter, on his Executive Committee) stands by his story that he ask Rob Ford to leave. 
Rob Ford: Ainslie email details what happened at Garrison Ball | Toronto Star

Plus, editorial by Rosie DiManno.
Mayor Rob Ford needs to explain his erratic behaviour: DiManno | Toronto Star


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> With these sorts of things, you generally will one day wake up to something just fantastic.
> 
> The best part is, all the furious hand waving of 'nothing to see here', will look hilaaaaarious at some point


Ford nation has never looked so desperate scrambling to forgive their messiah.


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Ford nation has never looked so desperate scrambling to forgive their messiah.


They should just leave him alone ................ and leave His Lordship, Conrad Black, alone as well. They have suffered enough .................. God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth. "He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart."


----------



## eMacMan

FWIW I would be very surprised if the mayor is not diabetic. 

If so and he continues to drink then he is incredibly stupid. Even if does not imbibe, out of whack blood sugar levels have caused more than one diabetic to fail roadside sobriety tests.


----------



## iMouse

I seriously doubt that Conrad was even humble In utero


----------



## Sonal

I seriously doubt that Conrad and Mayor Ford hang out much.... Lord Black doesn't strike me as much of a football fan, and he'd never be caught dead shopping at Walmart in his pyjamas. 
http://www.torontolife.com/daily/informer/toronto-politics/2012/08/02/rob-ford-walmart-book-pyjamas/


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> I seriously doubt that Conrad and Mayor Ford hang out much.... Lord Black doesn't strike me as much of a football fan, and he'd never be caught dead shopping at Walmart in his pyjamas.
> Spotted: a photo of what may be Rob Ford in his pyjamas at Walmart | torontolife.com


Yes, but both have been hounded unfairly by the courts, the press and the public. Both are shining examples to children what they might strive to achieve with some hard work, dedication to service and a bit of luck.


----------



## Sonal

Live chat with the Star reporter who broke the story, if anyone has any questions:

‘Intoxicated' Rob Ford: Live chat with reporter Robyn Doolittle - thestar.com


----------



## Kosh

Is it really news that the guy drinks? :yawn: I mean look at the guy.

The Toronto Star's got nothing better to write about?


----------



## groovetube

The Toronto star, writing about the Toronto mayor?

Who'd a thunk it!


----------



## JAMG

We interrupt this thread with breaking news.....

Rob Ford drinks....
the Toronto Star HATES Rob Ford...
Tomorrow will be Thursday...

Film at 11...
Stay tuned for further developments....


----------



## Lawrence

I really don't understand what the problem is, Mike Harris ran Ontario under the influence,
Who suffered then? Well, Never mind the mentally infirm and the Indians.

Under our great and right winged Mayor, So what, The homeless will always be homeless,
Maybe even more so now, But then, That is to be expected right? They are non tax payers and don't deserve to eat at the trough. Oink Oink...Welcome to Tornonto eh


----------



## Kosh

Alberta had a premier, Ralph Klein, that drank all the time and he was premier for an awful long time. You didn't see it in the news every day, did you?


----------



## BigDL

eMacMan said:


> FWIW I would be very surprised if the mayor is not diabetic.
> 
> If so and he continues to drink then he is incredibly stupid. Even if does not imbibe, out of whack blood sugar levels have caused more than one diabetic to fail roadside sobriety tests.


Excellent point. 

Undiagnosed or out of control diabetes can leave enough sugar in the body to ferment, into alcohol. High or low glucose levels can cause confusion, irritability, irrational behaviour such as mood swings as well.


----------



## Macfury

I believe the bigger story is the _Toronto Star_'s recent lay-offs and exceptional losses. This is just a sad way to drive up newspaper sales.


----------



## SINC

When rival journalists begin to pick apart the Star's approach and tactics, it rings alarm bells industry wide. It becomes obvious there is something rotten in Denmark, or is that the Star?


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> When rival journalists begin to pick apart the Star's approach and tactics, it rings alarm bells industry wide. It becomes obvious there is something rotten in Denmark, or is that the Star?


i'm not sure i'd qualify Christie Blatchford as a "journalist".... perhaps more of a commentator or columnist. I don't remember her ever breaking a story....

But more to the point, her paper (the national post) never garners anywhere near the awards the Toronto Star does every year. For instance, the latest nominations :

Finalists revealed for 2012 National Newspaper Awards | Newspapers Canada

so maybe it has something to do with jealousy? 

Here's a summery of the Live chat with one of the Star reporters who broke the story :

Rob Ford: Questions and answers about the Star’s ‘intoxicated’ report | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

The Blatch somehow represents "ringing alarm bells *industry wide*"?

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> i'm not sure i'd qualify Christie Blatchford as a "journalist".... perhaps more of a commentator or columnist. I don't remember her ever breaking a story....


Yeah, right. 

During four trips to Afghanistan in 2006–07, she reported on the experiences of Canadian soldiers. Based on these experiences, she wrote the book Fifteen Days: Stories of Bravery, Friendship, Life and Death from Inside the New Canadian Army. *The book went on to garner the 2008 Governor General's Literary Award in Non-fiction.*


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> The Blatch somehow represents "ringing alarm bells *industry wide*"?
> 
> :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


Yep industry wide. If you think journalists right across the country are not alarmed at the Star's tactics, you simply have no idea about journalism. Oh hell never mind, I am wasting pixels trying to convince you that you don't know more about how journalists think than they themselves do. Sorry, I keep forgetting you know it all.


----------



## groovetube

Well if it is, indeed 'industry wide', I'd be interested in other journalists and their expressions of alarm at the star's tactics.

Industry wide that is.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Yep industry wide. If you think journalists right across the country are not alarmed at the Star's tactics, you simply have no idea about journalism. Oh hell never mind, I am wasting pixels trying to convince you that you don't know more about how journalists think than they themselves do. Sorry, I keep forgetting you know it all.


I follow about every journalist on the City Hall beat on Twitter.... in all the chatter, none seem particularly concerned about the Star's reporting here.

And the CBC has independently investigated the story, and found another counsellor who went on record with concerns about Rob Ford's drinking.

As for Christie Blatchford, she enjoys stirring the pot... this is the same columnist who thought to criticize the widespread expressions of grief after Jack Layton's death.


----------



## i-rui

SINC said:


> Yeah, right.
> 
> During four trips to Afghanistan in 2006–07, she reported on the experiences of Canadian soldiers. Based on these experiences, she wrote the book Fifteen Days: Stories of Bravery, Friendship, Life and Death from Inside the New Canadian Army. *The book went on to garner the 2008 Governor General's Literary Award in Non-fiction.*


fair enough, but again i don't think i've ever see her actually "break" a news story (perhaps in her early days which would have been before my time?), so perhaps her opinion on what constitutes running or not running a story aren't terribly relevant to beat reporters.

Any other links from the newspaper industry condemning the Star on this story besides her editorial?


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I follow about every journalist on the City Hall beat on Twitter.... in all the chatter, none seem particularly concerned about the Star's reporting here.
> 
> And the CBC has independently investigated the story, and found another counsellor who went on record with concerns about Rob Ford's drinking.
> 
> As for Christie Blatchford, she enjoys stirring the pot... this is the same columnist who thought to criticize the widespread expressions of grief after Jack Layton's death.


I haven't seen any either, so I'm all ears on this.


----------



## i-rui

> i'm not sure i'd qualify Christie Blatchford as a "journalist"


perhaps i shouldn't have initially said "journalist", probably "reporter" would've been more accurate. I guess a columnist would still be considered a "journalist".

Doing a bit of research it seems the only actual reporting she did was early in her career as a sports reporter.

BTW, i'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a columnist, but it certainly is a different animal than being a reporter.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> s for Christie Blatchford, she enjoys stirring the pot... this is the same columnist who thought to criticize the widespread expressions of grief after Jack Layton's death.


Although I might not have expressed those sentiments at the time, I largely agreed with her views.



i-rui said:


> perhaps i shouldn't have initially said "journalist", probably "reporter" would've been more accurate. I guess a columnist would still be considered a "journalist."


A journalist is a writer for a journal. I think you're right that the more important difference is between a columnist and a reporter. A columnist does not pretend to objectivity... while reporters often pretend that they are objective.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Although I might not have expressed those sentiments at the time, I largely agreed with her views.


You also enjoy stirring the pot.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Watched the movie Primary Colours - loosely based on Bill Clinton.. [sex, drinking etc] but he still got elected and still had affaires and lied about it..

Cut Rob Ford a break.. he is doing a half decent job, getting what he promised to help the city out; while being surrounded by whining socialists.. who wouldnt have a few with a job like that. He is only human..

If you hate him so much.. we have something called elections - every 4 years.. vote him out.. simple.. what the Toronto Star and others are doing is more damaging than what he is actually doing.. IMHO


----------



## Sonal

Ivor Tossel breaks things down.
Rob Ford’s truth - Canada - Macleans.ca


----------



## Sonal

Oh, and as for many journalists alarmed at the Star's tactics:
Toronto Star vs. Rob Ford: Huzzah for ruthless reporters | Full Comment | National Post

(Note that a couple of Star journos have commented on Twitter that they were equally ruthless with Miller and Lastman.)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> (Note that a couple of Star journos have commented on Twitter that they were equally ruthless with Miller and Lastman.)


Lastman maybe. Miller got a free pass from _The Star_.


----------



## i-rui

Miller didn't suffer from foot-in-mouth disease like Lastman & Ford.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> Miller didn't suffer from foot-in-mouth disease like Lastman & Ford.


Small detail.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Miller didn't suffer from foot-in-mouth disease like Lastman & Ford.


He was quietly incompetent.


----------



## groovetube

Supporters must speak up for Metrolinx plan: James | Toronto Star

This sums things up quite well:



> Over three decades of watching this issue of shortfall in transit funding, a few clear realities emerge:
> One, those who say the private sector can build out the kind of transit future we need can’t be that stupid; theirs is a deliberate attempt to do nothing.
> Two, the citizens who say, “Wait till all the government waste is ended,” cannot be that insincere. Really, they are opposed to spending money on fixing the problem.
> Three, the politicians fixated on one funding tool over the other can’t be that close-minded. Rather, they lack the political courage to do the needful thing.
> That leaves you, the silent majority, hoping for change. Time to speak up.


----------



## iMouse

This will get his fat attention.

The courts have ordered him to pay costs to the plaintiffs, in the conflict of interest case, to the tune of $100,000.


----------



## heavyall

Sonal said:


> Oh, and as for many journalists alarmed at the Star's tactics:
> Toronto Star vs. Rob Ford: Huzzah for ruthless reporters | Full Comment | National Post


The transformation of the National Post has been astounding to watch. They went from unapologetically conservative under Conrad Black, to being the official newsletter of the Liberal Party under the Izzy Asper, to a brief flirtation with being (gasp) neutral under David Asper, to what we have now: far enough to the left that even the Globe and Mail appears conservative in comparison.


----------



## groovetube

That's pure nonsense.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> That's pure nonsense.


What part? Black is a staunch conservative, Izzy Asper was a prominent Liberal, and for the last year and a bit they have been militantly anti-CPC. Those are some pretty wide swings, and they all showed very clearly in their changing editorial slant. There is no question the Post is a left-wing paper right now.


----------



## groovetube

Left relative to what? I read the post everyday as I do many of the others, I don't find the post any further to the left than the globe by any stretch. 

Granted I see less conservative-ness about the paper in general, but not quite what you're describing.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Left relative to what? I read the post everyday as I do many of the others, I don't find the post any further to the left than the globe by any stretch.
> 
> Granted I see less conservative-ness about the paper in general, but not quite what you're describing.


it's not so much an ideology shift as it is a partisanship one. Calling them left-wing probably* is* a misnomer, what I mean is they are stridently opposed to the Conservative Party. Definitely more so than the Globe.


----------



## i-rui

lol

The National Post endorsed Harper in the last election. Not exactly a Left leaning paper by ANY stretch of the imagination.


----------



## groovetube

Well they're not the sun. 

LOL.


----------



## Ottawaman

Mayor Ford hires his old football coach as "director of operations and logistics"


----------



## groovetube

you guys up in Ottawa must be laughing at us after having gone through it with O'Brien.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> lol
> 
> The National Post endorsed Harper in the last election. Not exactly a Left leaning paper by ANY stretch of the imagination.


They were still transitioning from Canwest to Postmedia ownership then. The change was gradual. The Post's full court anti-conservative attacks didn't really start until Feb 2012.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> They were still transitioning from Canwest to Postmedia ownership then. The change was gradual. The Post's full court anti-conservative attacks didn't really start until Feb 2012.


Are you suggesting that to be critical of this current government makes you a liberal? 

From the unbelievable hypocrisies I've seen, I'd say that makes them credible. Not 'liberal'.


----------



## i-rui

Mayor Rob Ford accidently collides with cameraman at city hall | CityNews

he might want to try actually looking where he's walking.


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> Mayor Rob Ford accidently collides with cameraman at city hall | CityNews
> 
> he might want to try actually looking where he's walking.


A full day of casino deputations, and this is the story reported?


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> A full day of casino deputations, and this is the story reported?


i-rui, what do you have to say for yourself?


----------



## i-rui

I LOL'd

no apologies!


----------



## i-rui

alternate angle :





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






i have mixed emotions about this. On the one hand Ford walking directly into the camera gives us a great POV shot, but on the other hand if the cameraman wasn't there Ford would have walked directly into the wall, which i feel would've been even more hilarious.


----------



## iMouse

i-rui said:


> On the one hand Ford walking directly into the camera gives us a great POV shot, but on the other hand if the cameraman wasn't there Ford would have walked directly into the wall, which i feel would've been even more hilarious.


He's just an in-your-face (camera, wall) kinda guy. :baby:


----------



## i-rui

a star is born?





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> a star is born?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


oh that looks great on Toronto doesn't it.


----------



## Sonal

A mayor who refuses to lead - The GridTO

So Rob Ford, instead of attempting to participate in the discussion the province will have on revenue tools for transit (even if that participation was to say 'hell no'), instead chooses to defer everything until after the province has made a decision to impose upon the GTA.... presumably so he can blame the province afterward.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> So Rob Ford, instead of attempting to participate in the discussion the province will have on revenue tools for transit (even if that participation was to say 'hell no'), instead chooses to defer everything until after the province has made a decision to impose upon the GTA.... presumably so he can blame the province afterward.


Good for Ford. Calling them "revenue tools" is just another word for shakedown.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Good for Ford. Calling them "revenue tools" is just another word for shakedown.


So instead of deferring, why didn't he move to recommend rejecting all taxes outright?


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> So instead of deferring, why didn't he move to recommend rejecting all taxes outright?


Because it's better to blame the province for the shakedown than to be associated with it in any way.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Because it's better to blame the province for the shakedown than to be associated with it in any way.


So not a single person is going to think, well, you had an opportunity to try to stop it and did nothing....


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> So not a single person is going to think, well, you had an opportunity to try to stop it and did nothing....


It's hard to imagine anyone who could buy this sort of logic.

wait a second..


----------



## BigDL

.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> So not a single person is going to think, well, you had an opportunity to try to stop it and did nothing....


How do you suppose he's going to stop it? It's like encountering a thug who is going to rob you, but offering you a choice of weapons--he will either rob you by knifepoint or gunpoint. Getting into a discussion about it makes you complicit.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> How do you suppose he's going to stop it? It's like encountering a thug who is going to rob you, but offering you a choice of weapons--he will either rob you by knifepoint or gunpoint. Getting into a discussion about it makes you complicit.


Yes, unlike closing your eyes and saying, "Hey, I'm just going to stand here quietly so feel free to search me for every penny I have, including that emergency twenty I keep in my shoe.... in fact, I'm just going to have a nap, so take your time maxing out my credit cards and trying to brute-force my PIN number."


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Yes, unlike closing your eyes and saying, "Hey, I'm just going to stand here quietly so feel free to search me for every penny I have, including that emergency twenty I keep in my shoe.... in fact, I'm just going to have a nap, so take your time maxing out my credit cards and trying to brute-force my PIN number."


He's just waiting for the crime to be completed, so he can call the cops.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> He's just waiting for the crime to be completed, so he can call the cops.


"Sir, can you give a description of the individual who robbed you?"
"No, I deliberately closed my eyes so that I wouldn't be complicit."


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> "Sir, can you give a description of the individual who robbed you?"
> "No, I deliberately closed my eyes so that I wouldn't be complicit."


:clap:


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> "Sir, can you give a description of the individual who robbed you?"
> "No, I deliberately closed my eyes so that I wouldn't be complicit."


I said nothing while they robbed me. Now I'm reporting the deed.


----------



## groovetube

Mississauga says ‘yes’ to most transit tax options, and fie on Ford | Toronto Star

Mississauga mayor and councillors telling Ford off.


----------



## Macfury

These grandiose transit plans should be funded by rider fares. Pay what it costs.


----------



## iMouse

With everyone involved being selfish, it would *never* be built.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> With everyone involved being selfish, it would *never* be built.


with the attitudes I've seen, if they had them decades ago, we'd have no transit. We'd still have the clunky streetcars riding down all streets including bloor.

Can you just imagine the gridlock? It'd be faster to walk. I don't know what in anyone's fantasy land they think this will get paid for, but it has to get started.

It's rather unfortunate that our mayor has spearheaded building a subway up where the ridership will never support it.

That, is just incredibly stupid, even to those who worship the guy.

oh wait...


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> These grandiose transit plans should be funded by rider fares. Pay what it costs.


Seeing as proximity to transit brings up both house values and rent (both residential and commercial), by that argument a portion of property tax or land transfer tax or development surcharges (or some other fee upon land owners and developers) should also go to transit.... after all, they benefit financially from it.

Similarly, the Toronto Board of Trade estimates about 6 billion dollars is lost to congestion and supports mass transit as part of the solution.... guess if the corporations benefit, they should also pay for transit.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Seeing as proximity to transit brings up both house values and rent (both residential and commercial), by that argument a portion of property tax or land transfer tax or development surcharges (or some other fee upon land owners and developers) should also go to transit.... after all, they benefit financially from it.


The outrageous cost of decent housing in Toronto is not a good thing for most. Between thos it helps and those it harms, it's a wash.

This would be like me putting a Tim Horton's near one of your buildings, then coming to your door to demand a refund of some of the cost of building it, because I see your tenants enjoying the coffee and this clearly makes your property more valuable.



Sonal said:


> Similarly, the Toronto Board of Trade estimates about 6 billion dollars is lost to congestion and supports mass transit as part of the solution.... guess if the corporations benefit, they should also pay for transit.


Not directly. If they find their employees are not able to afford to take transit to get to work with rides sold on a cost-recovery basis, they should buy them tickets/passes or pay them more to get them to work.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Seeing as proximity to transit brings up both house values and rent (both residential and commercial), by that argument a portion of property tax or land transfer tax or development surcharges (or some other fee upon land owners and developers) should also go to transit.... after all, they benefit financially from it.
> 
> Similarly, the Toronto Board of Trade estimates about 6 billion dollars is lost to congestion and supports mass transit as part of the solution.... guess if the corporations benefit, they should also pay for transit.


It seems the pro ford crowd has trouble understanding all of this. I'm seeing that conservative thinking doesn't seem to include how to both balance the chequebook, and plan properly to deal with looming problems. They seem to have this simplistic idea, that if you pretend the problem isn't there, that someone else will hopefully deal with it.

WHich unfortunately ends up being the average taxpayer at the end of the day.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> The outrageous cost of decent housing in Toronto is not a good thing for most. Between thos it helps and those it harms, it's a wash.


It's outrageous because the market has determined that Toronto is a highly desirable place to live. People are willing to pay the cost of living here... one of the factors in that cost is proximity to transit. 

Already, in anticipation of the LRT, prices along Eglinton are starting to rise. Development is starting. It's still 8 years away in a best case scenario. People are already benefitting financially from this.



Macfury said:


> This would be like me putting a Tim Horton's near one of your buildings, then coming to your door to demand a refund of some of the cost of building it, because I see your tenants enjoying the coffee and this clearly makes your property more valuable.


To which I would reply that my residential building provides customers for you, thus improving your bottom line.

But in any case, you are not the City. You have no responsibility to me for managing zoning and planning and permissions to make the city a better place to live and do business. The City does.



Macfury said:


> Not directly. If they find their employees are not able to afford to take transit to get to work with rides sold on a cost-recovery basis, they should buy them tickets/passes or pay them more to get them to work.


But it works both ways. Companies want to be able to attract talented workers. Large corporate offices are now moving back into downtown Toronto from the 905 as more and more of their employees and potential employees do not want to work places that cannot be easily accessed by public transit, because employees prefer to work where the commute is shorter and does not require a car. 

Office rent is downtown starting to go into bidding wars. Nothing stops these companies from just paying their employees more, but instead, they are choosing the cost of moving and the higher rent because good access to transit is worth it for them.


----------



## Sonal

Looks like, (predictably) Council's taking matters into its own hands again. Casino debate also comes up that day... should make for an entertaining meeting.

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford ally Councillor Gary Crawford flip-flops on transit tax vote | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It's outrageous because the market has determined that Toronto is a highly desirable place to live. People are willing to pay the cost of living here... one of the factors in that cost is proximity to transit.


Uh huh--I know. However, I'm not living here as a real estate investment. Any increase in the value of my house merely costs me more in taxes. I don't see it as desirable. It's just a side effect of people's decisions, nit the purpose of them.



Sonal said:


> Already, in anticipation of the LRT, prices along Eglinton are starting to rise. Development is starting. It's still 8 years away in a best case scenario. People are already benefitting financially from this.


Developers perhaps. So what? 



Sonal said:


> To which I would reply that my residential building provides customers for you, thus improving your bottom line.


Just as your residents should provide the transit system with paying unsubsidized customers.



Sonal said:


> But it works both ways. Companies want to be able to attract talented workers. Large corporate offices are now moving back into downtown Toronto from the 905 as more and more of their employees and potential employees do not want to work places that cannot be easily accessed by public transit, because employees prefer to work where the commute is shorter and does not require a car.
> 
> Office rent is downtown starting to go into bidding wars. Nothing stops these companies from just paying their employees more, but instead, they are choosing the cost of moving and the higher rent because good access to transit is worth it for them.


They should keep doing that then. I see no reason to subsidize the others who are currently located away from transit. Nor do I see any reason that they should subsidize the sytem, except trough the wages of their worker-rider class.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Uh huh--I know. However, I'm not living here as a real estate investment. Any increase in the value of my house merely costs me more in taxes. I don't see it as desirable. It's just a side effect of people's decisions, nit the purpose of them.


Just because it's not cash in your hand, doesn't mean you haven't made money in net worth. One day, you or your estate will either re-finance or sell the property and realize the gain. You may not see this as desirable, but you still benefit financially from it.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Just because it's not cash in your hand, doesn't mean you haven't made money in net worth. One day, you or your estate will either re-finance or sell the property and realize the gain. You may not see this as desirable, but you still benefit financially from it.


Since I'm stuck in Toronto--no. I can only move to another similarly expensive home.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Since I'm stuck in Toronto--no. I can only move to another similarly expensive home.


I did say 'you or your estate'.  I'm fairly sure you're not immortal.


----------



## bryanc

It's also your choice to stay in Toronto, MF. You could sell and retire somewhere cheap. I know a few people here in Fredericton who've sold their homes in BC's Lower Mainland for large sums, moved here, purchased large, comfortable homes outright, and are now enjoying an early semi-retirement.


----------



## groovetube

indeed, staying in Toronto, is a choice, not matter how you frame it.

If you stay here even though you hate it, you only have yourself to blame.


----------



## Macfury

bryanc said:


> It's also your choice to stay in Toronto, MF. You could sell and retire somewhere cheap. I know a few people here in Fredericton who've sold their homes in BC's Lower Mainland for large sums, moved here, purchased large, comfortable homes outright, and are now enjoying an early semi-retirement.


Given that I've chosen to stay in Toronto for various personal reasons, how does an increase in the value of my home help me? By giving me the option to move?

That makes no sense.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Given that I've chosen to stay in Toronto for various personal reasons, how does an increase in the value of my home help me? By giving me the option to move?
> 
> That makes no sense.


By giving you an asset that you can take better financial advantage of should your circumstances change.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> By giving you an asset that you can take better financial advantage of should your circumstances change.


It has made my property taxes rise precipitously with no improvement in my quality of life.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> By giving you an asset that you can take better financial advantage of should your circumstances change.


not everyone can see those sorts of benefits. They're content to whine about having to pay for things.

They could try up way in conservo land where not only would you have lost in the real estate market somewhat in recent years, but you'd be paying far more in property taxes for the pleasure.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> It has made my property taxes rise precipitously with no improvement in my quality of life.


Assets are like that sometimes.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The strike is a bad move for the library workers. Toronto's love of libraries does not necessarily extend to library unions, and in time this will squander all that goodwill they stirred up--that'll be bad for them come budget time.


Interesting to see how much things have changed since we discussed the strike:

Toronto libraries lend fewer books to children and teens following increase in fines | Toronto Star

There's a consistent drop in borrowing across the board. The Star is assisting library supporters in suggesting that overdue fines are to blame, but seriously--this is their only response? They have to make it easier on people who return books late or not at all in order to spur borrowing demand?


----------



## iMouse

Libraries will soon become archives of the past.

eBooks are flourishing.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Libraries will soon become archives of the past.
> 
> eBooks are flourishing.


oh is the libraries the thorn in it's side du jour?

Always something. Why not teh learns?


----------



## iMouse

Not at all. I spent many happy hours as a young lad in the 2nd floor window seat of the one at Pape & Danforth.

Just being a realist, what with the burgeoning portable electronic revolution for fiction/non-fiction, and the Internet for everything else..


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> Libraries will soon become archives of the past.
> 
> eBooks are flourishing.


There are already libraries in the U.S. that are all-digital.

My son is reluctant to take out books from the library after it was discovered that people were bringing home bed bug colonies in library book bindings.

Too much work is being done now to turn libraries into community centres offering cheap room rentals in order to justify their existence. I would prefer the library system to concentrate on its core function of lending library materials. If some branches can't sustain themselves, they need to move to smaller quarters or combine with other branches.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Not at all. I spent many happy hours as a young lad in the 2nd floor window seat of the one at Pape & Danforth.
> 
> Just being a realist, what with the burgeoning portable electronic revolution for fiction/non-fiction, and the Internet for everything else..


oh I wasn't digging you John. 

However good ideas can fast become oh oh! when people discover how much it costs to digitize, run a huge framework to run such a thing. :lmao:


----------



## Sonal

You can borrow eBooks from libraries, though selection right now is very limited. A lot of publishers aren't yet converting their backlist to eBooks--plus there's a lot of author contracts to renegotiate about electronic publishing rights--and I think CanLit is particularly slow to adapt to eBooks. Also, the archival material--newspapers, etc--is largely inaccessible from the internet, though that has improved a bit. 

Still, every library I go to has been busy and full of people. Hard to find a place to sit a lot of the time. 

I am curious about this correlation between higher fines and borrowing. The Star article makes some references to this, but it's a bit vague.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Still, every library I go to has been busy and full of people. Hard to find a place to sit a lot of the time.


Yes. They have become community centres.



Sonal said:


> I am curious about this correlation between higher fines and borrowing. The Star article makes some references to this, but it's a bit vague.


I think this is the library board's feeble reasoning for the system's declining lending rates.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Yes. They have become community centres.


I actually don't have a problem with that, though for the most part, people seem to be sitting and working on things instead of interacting with each other, as one might expect at a community centre. 



Macfury said:


> I think this is the library board's feeble reasoning for the system's declining lending rates.


Well, if borrowing has gone up steadily for the past 10 years, and then dropped this year, it seems reasonable to assume something changed. What that was, however, it's hard to say.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I actually don't have a problem with that, though for the most part, people seem to be sitting and working on things instead of interacting with each other, as one might expect at a community centre.


I do. We have community centres already. I don't appreciate the duplication of services.

Libraries are primarily lending institutions, so let them live or die on that function.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I do. We have community centres already. I don't appreciate the duplication of services.
> 
> Libraries are primarily lending institutions, so let them live or die on that function.


Well if libraries are fulfilling the needs of community centres, perhaps we don't have enough community centres. 

Libraries are also research institutions.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Libraries are also research institutions.


Then let them reinstitute the "no coffee" rule.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Then let them reinstitute the "no coffee" rule.


The "no food or drink" rule is in place on the 6th floor of the North York Central Library, where all the microfiche/microfilm readers are.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> The "no food or drink" rule is in place on the 6th floor of the North York Central Library, where all the microfiche/microfilm readers are.


But not elsewhere, since it would reduce the number of "coffee clatch" patrons.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I actually don't have a problem with that, though for the most part, people seem to be sitting and working on things instead of interacting with each other, as one might expect at a community centre.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if borrowing has gone up steadily for the past 10 years, and then dropped this year, it seems reasonable to assume something changed. What that was, however, it's hard to say.


seems they are, as they always have been. I'm not sure why anyone would be shocked or dismayed at the social aspect of going to the library. Perhaps they need to get out a little more. Interact with... real... people.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> But not elsewhere, since it would reduce the number of "coffee clatch" patrons.


For the most part, I see a lot of people working with a coffee or a snack beside them, so it doesn't seem like much of a coffee clatch. 

Most of the floors of North York Central are dominated by quiet zones, where you are not supposed to chatter. (I have been shushed for answering my cell phone there--business call while I was researching.) How do you clatch without talking?


----------



## BigDL

> “Coffee klatsch” comes from German Kaffeeklatsch meaning “coffee chat.” This is a compound word of which only one element has been translated, with the other being left in its original German spelling.
> 
> Many people anglicize the spelling further to “coffee klatch” or *“coffee clatch.”* Either one is less sophisticated than “coffee klatsch,” but not too likely to cause raised eyebrows.
> 
> “Coffee clutch” is just a mistake except when used as a deliberate pun to label certain brands of coffee-cup sleeves or to name a cafe.


Coffee Clatch.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Coffee Clatch.


Thankfully the anglicized spelling is not too likely to cause raised eyebrows


----------



## Sonal

A pretty good summary of yesterday's massive mess.
Council transit funding debate: What the hell was that? - The GridTO

There's a few brave people, both for and against the issue, but an awful lot of rank cowards.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> A pretty good summary of yesterday's massive mess.
> Council transit funding debate: What the hell was that? - The GridTO
> 
> There's a few brave people, both for and against the issue, but an awful lot of rank cowards.


Sell. Tickets.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Sell. Tickets.


Popcorn too. Think of the revenue.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Popcorn too. Think of the revenue.


Sure. I'd pay to throw popcorn at the sardines in the commuter trains!


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> A pretty good summary of yesterday's massive mess.
> Council transit funding debate: What the hell was that? - The GridTO
> 
> There's a few brave people, both for and against the issue, but an awful lot of rank cowards.


it seems we have a rudderless ship.

But we knew that already.


----------



## mrjimmy

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford bolts from meeting to put fridge magnets on cars | Toronto Star



> Minutes after Mayor Rob Ford arrived at a contentious community council meeting in Etobicoke on Tuesday evening, he bolted out of his seat, sprinted up an aisle, and left the building — to wander around the parking lot and slap “Rob Ford Mayor” fridge magnets on the doors of cars.
> *When a reporter told Ford that some people might find his behaviour strange, he retorted that some people find the reporter strange.* Magnets in hand, he made no further comment.


:lmao:

I know you are but what am I?

He looks and acts like a used car salesman lumbering through the lot. Actually, we could only hope for a used car salesman...

The magnets will make nice collector's items when he is ousted next election.


----------



## Macfury

Nice to see that outsourcing garbage pickup has been a big success:

Garbage outsourcing generates fewer complaints than municipal collectors | Toronto Star


----------



## i-rui

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford bolts from meeting to put fridge magnets on cars | Toronto Star

magnets!


----------



## iMouse

Heard about that earlier this week, but more news today. 

Mayor Rob Ford under investigation for sticking magnets on cars | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

I thought we'd at least have gone upwards from 'nooooooobody!'.

what an embarrassment.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> Heard about that earlier this week, but more news today.
> 
> Mayor Rob Ford under investigation for sticking magnets on cars | Toronto Star


I wish all mayors would spend more time sticking magnets on cars instead of dreaming up expensive visions to be supported by residents.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I wish all mayors would spend more time sticking magnets on cars instead of dreaming up expensive visions to be supported by residents.


And this we will call progress!


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> And this we will call progress!


amazing the qualities people want in a mayor!

Some like them running around sticking magnets on cars, others prefer something a little more, productive. :lmao:


----------



## mrjimmy

Toronto casino: No news on hosting fee as Toronto council gets ready to debate | Toronto Star

Facing an almost certain defeat by Council, Ford decides to (basically) pull the casino plug and make it the Province's issue rather than his own. 

Now we all know that Ford certainly isn't bright enough to be that Machiavellian, so I wonder whose strategy this was. Was it brother Doug? Well is is making a run at provincial politics... 

If anything, our Mayor is, if nothing else, Big Machiavellian....


----------



## Sonal

It's a smart move for Ford to cancel the vote now, when he will certainly lose. 

If it goes to a vote, and is shot down, Ford will need to get a 2/3rd majority on council to re-open the issue... that's probably impossible. But if he delays the vote until conditions are favourable, then he might pass it.

My thinking is that he's betting on a provincial election between now and when the vote come up, hoping that Hudak will be in power and will give Toronto a special deal on casino hosting fees, which is the only possible way that this might pass.

I wonder who convinced him to follow this strategy.


----------



## iMouse

Dougie is the hand puppeteer.


----------



## John Clay

iMouse said:


> Heard about that earlier this week, but more news today.
> 
> Mayor Rob Ford under investigation for sticking magnets on cars | Toronto Star


Not sure how he thinks sticking crap on people's cars appropriate, yet here we are. Not touching other people's things is a pretty simple concept that even someone as dense as he should be able to grasp.


----------



## Sonal

http://gawker.com/for-sale-a-video-of-toronto-mayor-rob-ford-smoking-cra-507736569

You saw it here first. Make what you will of it.


----------



## i-rui

I just saw that as well..... Didn't want to post it since it's just a rumour, but it would explain an awful lot...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

😱😱😱


----------



## groovetube

hmm. I did hear something, well a few things through a few places, not about crack specifically though.

But the man is a, er, partier.

But this, would not surprise me in the least.


----------



## John Clay

Toronto Star is picking up the ball and running with it, from the looks of it.

https://twitter.com/robyndoolittle/status/335213402475593730


----------



## i-rui

John Clay beat me to it.....

watch this space :

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford smoked crack cocaine in a video, U.S. website alleges | Toronto Star


----------



## John Clay

i-rui said:


> John Clay beat me to it.....
> 
> watch this space :
> 
> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford smoked crack cocaine in a video, U.S. website alleges | Toronto Star


Excellent. Hopefully we can kick this moron out on his ass.


----------



## groovetube

Oohhh naughty naughty Toronto star.

Those leftie hacks.


----------



## mrjimmy

Duffy resigns, LCBO strike averted* and *Rob Ford smoking crack?

Sweet dreams everyone.


----------



## Sonal

Star story is up:
Toronto Mayor Rob Ford in 'crack cocaine' video scandal | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> http://gawker.com/for-sale-a-video-of-toronto-mayor-rob-ford-smoking-cra-507736569
> 
> You saw it here first. Make what you will of it.


Are you accusing him of being a liberal?


----------



## groovetube

man this like wildfire on facebook and twitter.

Even the ones who support ford all the time are howling about it.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> man this like wildfire on facebook and twitter.
> 
> Even the ones who support ford all the time are howling about it.


It will be interesting to see what lengths the apologists will go to this time around.


----------



## Sonal

We made Fox News.
Toronto Mayor Rob Ford reportedly caught on video smoking 'crack cocaine' | Fox News


----------



## John Clay

Sonal said:


> We made Fox News.
> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford reportedly caught on video smoking 'crack cocaine' | Fox News


Well, thats embarrassing.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> It will be interesting to see what lengths the apologists will go to this time around.


from what I'm seeing, no barrel is deep enough.


----------



## CubaMark

So.... Toronto has it's very own Marion Barry?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This is great -
https://www.youtube.com/embed/8oqrUPkW77k


----------



## i-rui

i don't know whether to laugh or cry.


----------



## Sonal

Crack-smoking Mayor Marion Berry comments on Rob Ford:
Toronto Mayor Rob Ford Smoking Crack: Lessons from Marion Barry's Case - City Desk


----------



## CubaMark

Gawker - the website that broke this story - is fundraising to purchase the alleged Rob Ford smoking crack cocaine video. The drug dealers want $200-thousand.... and the campaign is up to $60-thousand so far. On their first day of trying. On a weekend. I say they'll have the cash by Tuesday at the latest...


----------



## iMouse

Holy excrement, some people have more money than grey matter.

And that translates to a massive amount of hate for Uncle Rob.


----------



## mrjimmy

Who wants to bet that the brothers Ford raise the money first.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Who wants to bet that the brothers Ford raise the money first.


I'll bet you a fiver that the video will not be purchased by the Fords.


----------



## John Clay

30% of the way there, with 9 days left. Fingers crossed.

Rob Ford Crackstarter | Indiegogo


----------



## jef

Does the price of the video include HST?


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I'll bet you a fiver that the video will not be purchased by the Fords.


I'll take that bet. There is nothing I would put past Robbie and the inner sanctum.

The bet includes direct or _indirect_ purchase. Yes, it has been proven that they are stupid, but perhaps not that stupid as to do it themselves.

It won't be long before the Coen Bros get a hold of this script and the mockery will be etched in infamy.


----------



## John Clay

Chief Blair: Agent Ford successfully infiltrates drug ring - The Beaverton - North America's Trusted Source of News


----------



## mrjimmy

John Clay said:


> Chief Blair: Agent Ford successfully infiltrates drug ring - The Beaverton - North America's Trusted Source of News


Funny!

Have you seen this one?

Rob Ford Claims He Has Twin Brother - The Daily Currant


----------



## iMouse

I'd like to see how you prove indirect purchase, to win your bet. lol


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> I'd like to see how you prove indirect purchase, to win your bet. lol


If the Fords buy it, it will never be seen.


----------



## Sonal

Do-or-die meeting on downtown Toronto casino to proceed as councillors defy Mayor Rob Ford - The Globe and Mail

Casino debate carries on....


----------



## SINC

^

Link is 404.


----------



## Aurora

It's ok here.


----------



## mrjimmy

Sonal said:


> Do-or-die meeting on downtown Toronto casino to proceed as councillors defy Mayor Rob Ford - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Casino debate carries on....


The Mayor's influence isn't all that it's cracked up to be.


----------



## SINC

Aurora said:


> It's ok here.


Ane now it works here, go figure.


----------



## groovetube

Chief Blair: Agent Ford successfully infiltrates drug ring - The Beaverton - North America's Trusted Source of News

Somehow, there is something about this, that kinda wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## groovetube

Oh lookie it was already posted.


----------



## Sonal

Conrad Black comments:
Rob Ford like ‘an embarrassing guest,’ says Conrad Black | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

The embarrassment that rob ford was just showcased on jon stewart.

Toronto is becoming the laughingstock on nternational media everywhere now.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Toronto is becoming the laughingstock on nternational media everywhere now.


You say this like we had an international reputation beyond "That's in Canada, right?"


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> You say this like we had an international reputation beyond "That's in Canada, right?"


One also has to have a sufficiently cramped worldview to believe that Jon Stewart means "the big time."


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> One also has to have a sufficiently cramped worldview to believe that Jon Stewart means "the big time."


he has quite a wide audience, but if you prefer US network TV Jimmy Kimmel & Jay Leno also poked fun last night as well.

when a nation that voted for Bush back2back is making fun of who Toronto voted in office you know it doesn't reflect well on the city.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> he has quite a wide audience, but if you prefer US network TV Jimmy Kimmel & Jay Leno also poked fun last night as well.
> 
> when a nation that voted for Bush back2back is making fun of who Toronto voted in office you know it doesn't reflect well on the city.


hmm, and BBC, fox news, CNN, all throughout Europe, australian media is laughing at him, gawd how long do you have to be mommy's basement to come up with a croaker like that one? 

Bet that "Ford Nation" T-shirt is a bit of an embarrasment now hey? :lmao:


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> Bet that "Ford Nation" T-shirt is a bit of an embarrasment now hey? :lmao:


hipsters will want to wear them for their "ironic" value.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> hipsters will want to wear them for their "ironic" value.


:clap:


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> The embarrassment that rob ford was just showcased on jon stewart.
> 
> Toronto is becoming the laughingstock on International media everywhere now.


Jimmy Kimmel too. 

Rob Ford: U.S. late-night hosts take aim at Toronto mayor | Toronto Star


----------



## i-rui

amazing how inept his political team is :

https://twitter.com/KatieSimpson24/status/337231667792076800

not a good idea at the best of times, but even worse considering whats going on.

Apparently Doug Ford is set to talk to media very shortly


----------



## i-rui

press conference was a joke. statement read - mostly meaningless PR for the mayor, no questions taken.


----------



## mrjimmy

Something about a picture. Something about a thousand words....


----------



## groovetube

oh man.

Only thing left that would be worse, is if he was picking his nose.

Or holding a crack pipe...


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> oh man.
> 
> Only thing left that would be worse, is if he was picking his nose.
> 
> Or holding a crack pipe...


Or a pee stain.

All 3 things totally believable.


----------



## mrjimmy

The undoing continues:

Mayor Rob Ford dismissed as football coach at Don Bosco | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> The undoing continues:
> 
> Mayor Rob Ford dismissed as football coach at Don Bosco | Toronto Star


This is an outrage!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> This is an outrage!


I agree ............. unless he is being considered for a position as the Argos head coach ................. We shall see.


----------



## Sonal

It's not the first time he's been kicked off a volunteer coaching position.

Wonder what he'll do with his days now?


----------



## i-rui

Sonal said:


> Wonder what he'll do with his days now?


chase the dragon?


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> It's not the first time he's been kicked off a volunteer coaching position.
> 
> Wonder what he'll do with his days now?


Be mayor of TO????????


----------



## groovetube

sounds like a real hitting bottom to me.

I think he should probably get the help he needs, the mayor's position right now needs to be filled by someone who can do the job not just some of the time.


----------



## iMouse

He's heading the way of Chris Farley.


----------



## groovetube

https://twitter.com/KatieSimpson24/status/337232762467659776/photo/1

Apparently, Ford staffers at Peter Worthington's funeral, handing out Ford cards and magnets.

Now there's class. Real class.


----------



## iMouse

Why does the word whore come to mind?

At least they perform a time-honoured function.

How the Hell can these minions sleep at night?


----------



## Sonal

Mayor Rob Ford fires his chief of staff, Mark Towhey - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Mayor Rob Ford fires his chief of staff, Mark Towhey - The Globe and Mail


And you said the Mayor wasn't decisive!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> And you said the Mayor wasn't decisive!


Well, Mark Towhey should not have given Nigel Wright a check worth $90,172 to bail out Duffy. I have heard of the bond between the "Band of Brothers" formed by two chiefs of staff, but this was not well thought out.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> And you said the Mayor wasn't decisive!


I stand corrected. He's very decisive in his hiring and firing of his own personal staff.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> Well, Mark Towhey should not have given Nigel Wright a check worth $90,172 to bail out Duffy. I have heard of the bond between the "Band of Brothers" formed by two chiefs of staff, but this was not well thought out.


Say, now that Nigel Wright is out of a job, and there's an opening for a Chief of Staff in the Mayor's office...


----------



## i-rui

The Tyee – How Rob Ford's Meltdown Could Save Toronto

great article on the real reason T.O.'s politics are an absolute mess. I've been saying the same thing for years.


----------



## CubaMark

Now I finally "get" what people mean when they say _"...like watching a train wreck in slow motion..."_


----------



## groovetube

Just watched as the mayor ran off terrified of facing anyone on the way out.

Incredible. This just makes it look worse for him.


----------



## macintosh doctor

it is amazing when a mayor who is not a socialist is voted in what happens.. they attack him..
did you want another David Miller? who spent us to the poor house? Plus we still had work stoppages and Garbage strikes..


----------



## groovetube

so what you're saying, it's either david miller, or rob ford.

I'd like to see something in between. A mayor with brains, class, and knows how to lead a good team. Apparently, I guess that's too tall an order!


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Say, now that Nigel Wright is out of a job, and there's an opening for a Chief of Staff in the Mayor's office...


:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> it is amazing when a mayor who is not a socialist is voted in what happens.. they attack him..
> did you want another David Miller? who spent us to the poor house? Plus we still had work stoppages and Garbage strikes..


Yep, if the crack allegations turn out be true, I will have to stand behind an old joke line I used to deliver: "Even a crack head can do a better job than David Miler."


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> Yep, if the crack allegations turn out be true, I will have to stand behind an old joke line I used to deliver: "Even a crack head can do a better job than David Miler."


you know what? I have to agree with you.. crack or not.. he is still better for the city.. 
whats worse is we can have Barbara Hall back ..  - that is truly scary.. she did nothing for the city but lots for the unions.. signing what ever they wanted. 




groovetube said:


> so what you're saying, it's either david miller, or rob ford.
> 
> I'd like to see something in between. A mayor with brains, class, and knows how to lead a good team. Apparently, I guess that's too tall an order!


it will never happen, because the socialists will attempt to destroy them too.. plus the pay is peanuts.. 
Your better off being the mayor of Brampton - highest paid mayor in Canada.. 
not to mention the only thing you have to worry about is making sure developers build homes can house multi families in them at once.

Brampton townhouse development divides community | Toronto Star


----------



## Sonal

Truthfully, Rob Ford might make a better mayor in Brampton.... suburbs are more his thing.


----------



## Sonal

Someone just donated $10,000 to the Rob Ford Crackstarter campaign to buy the cell phone video.... a few people are wondering if it's Mark Towhey.


----------



## groovetube

holy crap, it's now past 145k.

The people have spoken!


----------



## CubaMark

*$156-thousand at 6:40pm EDT Thursday.* I was off in my prediction of Tuesday, but there looks like little doubt they'll hit the 200k mark. Next will be the very interesting "paying off drug dealers and getting the video" procedure... should be interesting!


----------



## groovetube

apparently they've lost contact with the video guy. But they think he's underground.

I bet there's a lot of people 'looking' for him. 

I'd have taken what I could get and scrammed, there's a lot of people that'd want to see him dead. Including that phone.


----------



## chimo

Sonal said:


> Mayor Rob Ford fires his chief of staff, Mark Towhey - The Globe and Mail


Should Tim Hudak's chief of staff be worried? That would complete the "hat trick".


----------



## iMouse

groovetube said:


> I'd have taken what I could get and scrammed, there's a lot of people that'd want to see him dead. Including that phone.


I was thinking the same thing.

It's all in the planning, but about 150K is certainly worth it. beejacon

I bet they hi-balled, and are shocked at the response.


----------



## heavyall

Something interesting:

*Looking for Rob Ford look alike/imposter in Toronto*



> Do you look like Mayor Rob Ford? I need someone who looks like Rob Ford to play the mayor in my film. It's a short shot of the mayor smoking a cigar and chuckling into the camera - as part of a montage. It's a dark comedy set in Toronto. Please send a photo for consideration and more information


Looking for Rob Ford look alike/imposter (Toronto) for sale in Toronto, Ontario Classifieds - CanadianListed.com

Ad was posted in January.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha ha ha ha

Fell for it.


----------



## CubaMark

Well now, that does make things interesting. If nothing else, it may provide some kind of deniability. Hopefully the filmmaker comes forward...


----------



## jef

groovetube said:


> apparently they've lost contact with the video guy. But they think he's underground.
> 
> I bet there's a lot of people 'looking' for him.
> 
> I'd have taken what I could get and scrammed, there's a lot of people that'd want to see him dead. Including that phone.


There is also speculation that Ford has already bought the video (he may have gotten a discount as a regular customer) and we may never see it...


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> Ad was posted in January.


ya, january.....2012

i guess the film makers had to wait over a year for industrial light and magic to finish the CGI before they "released" it.

incredible how far people will reach.


----------



## groovetube

jef said:


> There is also speculation that Ford has already bought the video (he may have gotten a discount as a regular customer) and we may never see it...


this would hardly surprise me.

If that's the case, then, he's definitely guilty of it.

What would be brilliant, is right in the middle of the lawsuits and shrieking, a copy surfaces.

But, the damage, is already done.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> ya, january.....2012
> 
> i guess the film makers had to wait over a year for industrial light and magic to finish the CGI before they "released" it.
> 
> incredible how far people will reach.


There was quite the knee slapping on this one, predicting how the 'right' would be all over this one like flies to honey.

Boy that was quick!


----------



## mrjimmy

heavyall said:


> Something interesting:
> 
> *Looking for Rob Ford look alike/imposter in Toronto*
> 
> 
> 
> Looking for Rob Ford look alike/imposter (Toronto) for sale in Toronto, Ontario Classifieds - CanadianListed.com
> 
> Ad was posted in January.


I love it! These knuckleheads (and I'm being kind) probably have bought into this as well: 

Rob Ford Claims He Has Twin Brother - The Daily Currant


----------



## Paddy

Rob Ford crack scandal: Gawker’s ‘Crackstarter’ campaign hits snag as it nears $200,000 goal, editor says | Toronto Star

So Ford just may get his (apparent) wish. No video...no need to 'splain.  (Anyone checked the Ford family bank accounts lately?)


----------



## groovetube

he's handled this really badly. Even if it weren't true, he's really only at this point made it look more true regardless of whether or not it is.

Only his real hard core supporters, will believe him, or defend him. And that number, ain't enough to re-elect him, especially if there is a good candidate next time around.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> ha ha ha ha ha ha
> 
> Fell for it.


"Fell for" what? An ad looking for a Rob Ford imposter? Posted long before this video was revealed?


----------



## i-rui

ouch!

looks like the Sun has decided to eat their own.










what a bloody lefty rag!


----------



## i-rui

cbc's take on this :

Toronto mayor fired chief of staff for telling him to 'go away and get help' - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> ouch!
> 
> looks like the Sun has decided to eat their own.
> 
> [what a bloody lefty rag!


How is reporting what the chief of staff supposedly said a political statement, left or right?

I'm laughing at all of the people who want Ford to "handle this" by falling on his sword for them. Whether the allegations are true or false, he's facing overwhelming odds against him, so seeing how this will play out is the best strategy.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> How is reporting what the chief of staff supposedly said a political statement, left or right?


I was poking fun at the responses I've already seen from Ford Nation and the ilk.



Macfury said:


> Whether the allegations are true or false, he's facing overwhelming odds against him, so seeing how this will play out is the best strategy.


Really? So you think that if it's true that he does have a substance abuse problem his "best strategy" is to wait and see? Not get help? Keep on being the mayor?

Wow.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> "Fell for" what? An ad looking for a Rob Ford imposter? Posted long before this video was revealed?


oh look around and see why I'm laughing.

It was pointed out by people on twitter and there was some knee slapping about how long it would take ford supporters to get all over this one.

It inly took you a few hours. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> I was poking fun at the responses I've already seen from Ford Nation and the ilk.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? So you think that if it's true that he does have a substance abuse problem his "best strategy" is to wait and see? Not get help? Keep on being the mayor?
> 
> Wow.


dear god, please let this whole thing not be true. He's such a swell guy, conservative and all, in it, for ALL the right reasons.

So really, the ONLY thing that's important to a conservative, is maintaining the illusion of lower taxes.

So WHAT if the mayor's a crack addict, so what if cons are passing money around and covering up each other's total theft of taxpayer's money. Just keep the low tax illusion going.

Dear GOD, please keep it going. ANything.

Just say no to drugs. Stay in school now. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Really? So you think that if it's true that he does have a substance abuse problem his "best strategy" is to wait and see? Not get help? Keep on being the mayor?


Yes, if he wants to keep his job, his best response--whether he does or does not have a substance abuse problem--is to do nothing at this point, except refuse to discuss it in any detail. He should see what happens with the purported video before responding.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> He should see what happens with the purported video before responding.


He knows what's going to happen with it; I'm sure he's watching it as we speak...

Later today, he'll get one of his talented wage slaves from Deco Labels to replace his head with that of Mammoliti's. 

Then the real video will be released.

:lmao:


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> holy crap, it's now past 145k.
> 
> The people have spoken!


What have the people said?

There is No video, if there was the crack head who made it would have taken $50Gs to feed his addiction. 

The bottom line is Ford should take the Star to task and sue them for millions for character assassination . . 
Let them prove they are innocent, they should of bought the so called video when it was first out if that is true. 

I am not buying it. The media have become a third rate school yard rumor spreading bullies.. That includes CNN and all of them - the art of journalism is dead.


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> What have the people said?
> 
> There is No video, if there was the crack head who made it would have taken $50Gs to feed his addiction.


Apparently, the crowdsourcing site that was raising the $200,000 says they have "lost contact" with the owner of the video now, and want to give the money to a drug rehab program instead.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> Apparently, the crowdsourcing site that was raising the $200,000 says they have "lost contact" with the owner of the video now, and want to give the money to a drug rehab program instead.


meaning it was all a farse and the guy must of got high off his own supply..
LOL

I CALLED BS FROM THE BEGINNING - may the downfall and burning begin of the media.in specific the toronto star.


----------



## jef

Macfury said:


> Apparently, the crowdsourcing site that was raising the $200,000 says they have "lost contact" with the owner of the video now, and want to give the money to a drug rehab program instead.


Not quite- they have lost contact since Sunday but they won't give the money (as they stated at the beginning) to a rehab program unless they cannot buy the video. They have not hit $200,000 yet; they have not given up. 

I think Ford already bought it...


----------



## Macfury

jef said:


> Not quite- they have lost contact since Sunday but they won't give the money (as they stated at the beginning) to a rehab program unless they cannot buy the video. They have not hit $200,000 yet; they have not given up.
> 
> I think Ford already bought it...


Whether they reach $200,000 or not, they need a seller.


----------



## eMacMan

Often proving innocence is impossible hence the requirement to prove guilt.

In this case our flying pig can prove his innocence. I am sure they can find one or two hairs on Mr. Ford's head which can be tested to see if he has used coke in the past 90 days.

Come on Rob. If you is really just a victim, take the test and prove it. Then you have all the evidence you need to go after those persecuting bat rastards in court.


----------



## groovetube

here's why Ford isn't saying anything.

They're desperately trying to get a hold of the video right away. Because if they can, and destroy it, he can deny, and go after anyone who dared say anything.

Because if he truly was innocent, he would have been fighting mad and denying it the whole way. 

Pretty easy to figure this out.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Yes, if he wants to keep his job, his best response--whether he does or does not have a substance abuse problem--is to do nothing at this point, except refuse to discuss it in any detail. He should see what happens with the purported video before responding.


His deputies and closet allies on council (except perhaps his brother) have been asking him to make a strong, emphatic statement that it's not him.

I honestly don't think that will do any good at this point. People have made up their mind, one way or another. 

And frankly, in the past when he has actually done stuff (DUI in Florida, getting drunk and belligerent and getting kicked out of a hockey game) his strategy was to emphatically deny everything ("I wasn't even in Florida!") only to be revealed as a total liar later. If he'd emphatically denied this, it's still pretty reasonable to wonder it's more of the same pattern... he doesn't exactly have a reputation for honesty in the face of scandal.

So at best, an empathic denial reassures a few people who are on the fence about him. That's a very small fraction. 

I do think that it's a bit strange that he's not loudly denying this, as that is his usual pattern, but perhaps his legal advisors have decided that Ford's mouth is his biggest liability.

There isn't really a way for him to be removed from his job--unless he goes to jail and is absent from council for 3 months straight, which seems highly unlikely even if the video does turn up--so really, he keeps his job by not voluntarily stepping down until the next election.


----------



## groovetube

that's the odd thing here. He always, hotly denies anything and everything.

This time, he is strangely silent. I think for the reasons I mentioned.


----------



## Sonal

I don't think he's nabbed the video. If he had, he could loudly deny everything since he's the one in possession of the damning evidence. 

He might be trying to get it, but who's to say that there would be no copies made? There's a lot more to be made in selling the video to Ford and then a copy to the media. But it doesn't make sense to me that this is the reason for his silence.

He says his lawyers have told him to keep his mouth shut. That seems the simplest explanation, and in my view the most likely.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> He says his lawyers have told him to keep his mouth shut. That seems the simplest explanation, and in my view the most likely.


Exactly. What difference will it make if he emphatically denies it today or a week from now? Better to understand fully what's stacked up against him, then ensure that the emphatic denial covers everything. Nothing worse than a series of statements that continue to evolve.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I don't think he's nabbed the video. If he had, he could loudly deny everything since he's the one in possession of the damning evidence.
> 
> He might be trying to get it, but who's to say that there would be no copies made? There's a lot more to be made in selling the video to Ford and then a copy to the media. But it doesn't make sense to me that this is the reason for his silence.
> 
> He says his lawyers have told him to keep his mouth shut. That seems the simplest explanation, and in my view the most likely.


Speculation is fun!

Word is though, that he fired his chief of staff because he told Ford to get help and go to a treatment facility.

I donno, but when someone in your corner is saying something like that, that speaks volumes here.


----------



## iMouse

Don't worry you little heads about Rob.

Big brother Dougie will take care of him, in his good old enabling way.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Yes, if he wants to keep his job, his best response--whether he does or does not have a substance abuse problem--is to do nothing at this point, except refuse to discuss it in any detail. He should see what happens with the purported video before responding.


completely disagree. the longer he stays silent the worse this becomes, and it won't be going away.

if the allegations are true the only way he could ever hope to continue a political career would be to stand up and admit he has a problem and seek help. Even if the video never surfaces, if he has a substance abuse problem things will never be getting better for him. Only worse.



jef said:


> I think Ford already bought it...


probably the only thing Ford could possibly do to make the situation worse would be to buy the video. (but i wouldn't put it past Ford since he constantly exhibits some of the worst judgment i've seen in a man)

First, there's the chance that proof of him buying it would leak out, in which case he's ruined.

second, the drug dealers almost certainly have copies of it, so if he buys it for $200,000 now most likely he'll have to pay another $200,000 (or double) in a few months. it's not like he'll be dealing with men who honour their word.

third, best case scenario - he buys the video and the drug dealers leave him alone, he still has a substance abuse problem that won't go away without serious help. Things will spiral out of control again in time.

What if the underworld has purchased the video? I think $200,000 would be a cheap price to pay to have the mayor in your pocket. I bring up that scenario because i've actually heard idiots from Ford Nation going off about "what does it matter what he does in his spare time?" I'm constantly shocked at how stupid a group of people can be - as if having a crack addicted mayor isn't of concern to residents of the city.


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> completely disagree. the longer he stays silent the worse this becomes, and it won't be going away.
> 
> if the allegations are true the only way he could ever hope to continue a political career would be to stand up and admit he has a problem and seek help. Even if the video never surfaces, if he has a substance abuse problem things will never be getting better for him. Only worse.


Marion Berry continues to hold elected office today.... and in fact, was re-elected for Mayor after being convicted for doing crack.

He might not be able to make it as Mayor--though that really depends on who runs against him--but I can easily see him being councillor in Etobicoke again. They love him.


----------



## i-rui

Sonal said:


> They love him.


not all of them. he was my councillor before he was mayor and I certainly never loved him.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> if the allegations are true the only way he could ever hope to continue a political career would be to stand up and admit he has a problem and seek help. Even if the video never surfaces, if he has a substance abuse problem things will never be getting better for him. Only worse.


*IF* they are true, then he need only say in a week or so how difficult it was to come clean, weep a little and enter rehab.


----------



## eMacMan

Like I said earlier, if the mayor is truly innocent he need only sacrifice a few of those sparse hairs on his head. A fairly simple test on those will show if he has been cracked in the last three months or so.


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> not all of them. he was my councillor before he was mayor and I certainly never loved him.


You've been outvoted for 10 years...


----------



## Sonal

Well he's speaking now, saying he doesn't smoke crack, and that he'd been silent so far based on legal advice.

This changes... nothing at all, really.


----------



## heavyall

Sonal said:


> Well he's speaking now, saying he doesn't smoke crack, and that he'd been silent so far based on legal advice.
> 
> This changes... nothing at all, really.


..except that his detractors can't say he "won't answer the question" anymore. Unless and until the video surfaces, there's no longer any reason for him to mention it further.


----------



## Sonal

heavyall said:


> ..except that his detractors can't say he "won't answer the question" anymore. Unless and until the video surfaces, there's no longer any reason for him to mention it further.


It's not like his detractors would believe his answer anyway....


----------



## i-rui

He didn't say he NEVER smoked crack, he didn't say he was NEVER in such a video and he wouldn't take any questions.

He spent more time talking about Don Bosco than the crack allegations FFS. Just shows how warped his mind is that he thinks people care about his football coaching career right now.

It doesn't really change anything. People who believe him still do, people who don't, still won't.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> He didn't say he NEVER smoked crack, he didn't say he was NEVER in such a video and he wouldn't take any questions.
> 
> He spent more time talking about Don Bosco than the crack allegations FFS. Just shows how warped his mind is that he thinks people care about his football coaching career right now.
> 
> It doesn't really change anything. People who believe him still do, people who don't, still won't.


The man's a professional politician. I admire his believers ability to stretch their imaginations to the max.


----------



## CubaMark

Question. Why did Ford need "legal counsel" to keep his trap shut this past week, if there's nothing to the story?

...that's been bugging me since the news conference this afternoon.... I also found it odd that his flunky had to ask the press to "respect" the mayor. Doesn't it seem rather odd to do this?


----------



## i-rui

eMacMan said:


> Like I said earlier, if the mayor is truly innocent he need only sacrifice a few of those sparse hairs on his head.


Lucky for us Rob Ford showed up with his hair buzzed super close to his scalp... Shorter then I've ever seen.

Shorter than the 1 inch minimum required for a drug test....


----------



## groovetube

funny that!

Next we'll hear the barber saved some strands...


----------



## Sonal

CubaMark said:


> Question. Why did Ford need "legal counsel" to keep his trap shut this past week, if there's nothing to the story?
> 
> ...that's been bugging me since the news conference this afternoon.... I also found it odd that his flunky had to ask the press to "respect" the mayor. Doesn't it seem rather odd to do this?


Because if it's entirely untrue, he might have a good libel case. 

And also, if a video does turn up, the police would likely want to talk to Mayor Ford about his activities.

Either way, good reason to talk to a lawyer.

I don't think that reading into his actions or his choice of tense is going to reveal much.... he's neither very legally savvy nor a particularly careful speaker.


----------



## BigDL

Sonal said:


> Because if it's entirely untrue, he might have a good libel case.
> 
> And also, if a video does turn up, the police would likely want to talk to Mayor Ford about his activities.
> 
> Either way, good reason to talk to a lawyer.
> 
> I don't think that reading into his actions or his choice of tense is going to reveal much.... he's neither very legally savvy nor a particularly careful speaker.


As I understand it the legal weasel words have been used on all sides of this "story."


----------



## CubaMark

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman..... Miss Lewinsky....."


----------



## heavyall

Lawyers tell clients not to talk because people with agendas like to twist other people's words. Even to the police (or a city council, or a senate committee...), the flat answer is do not talk, even if you have nothing to hide. In fact, ESPECIALLY if you think you've done nothing wrong. People with no fear of hiding anything are notorious for giving statements that sound like they could incriminate them.

This video is specifically about talking to police and the US constitution, but for most lawyers, the principles apply regardless of who wants you to talk:

Dont Talk to Police - YouTube


----------



## CubaMark

i-rui said:


> Lucky for us Rob Ford showed up with his hair buzzed super close to his scalp... Shorter then I've ever seen.
> 
> Shorter than the 1 inch minimum required for a drug test....





> *3.	What time period does hair testing cover? *
> 
> For head hair, Omega's standard window of detection is 90 days. However, longer and shorter timeframes are possible. Body hair samples are noted as an approximately 12 month timeframe.
> 
> *4.	How soon after use can a drug be detected in hair? *
> 
> It takes approximately 7-10 days from the time of drug use for the effected hair to grow above the scalp. Body hair growth rates are generally slower and cannot be utilized to determine a specific timeframe of drug use.
> 
> *(SNIP)*
> 
> *7.	How much hair is needed? *
> 
> A standard test with GC/MS, GC/MS/MS or LC/MS/MS confirmation requires 60+ milligrams of hair or approximately 90 to 120 strands. The thickness of different types of head hair (thick coarse vs. thinning fine) is the reason for this variation.
> 
> *8.	Can tests be run on people with little or no hair?*
> 
> Hair can be collected from several head locations and combined to obtain the required amount of hair. In addition, body hair may be used as a substitute to head hair. In the rare case where no hair is collectable, oral fluid or urine testing may be utilized.


(Omega Laboratories Hair Testing FAQ)


----------



## Sonal

heavyall said:


> Lawyers tell clients not to talk because people with agendas like to twist other people's words. Even to the police (or a city council, or a senate committee...), the flat answer is do not talk, even if you have nothing to hide. In fact, ESPECIALLY if you think you've done nothing wrong. People with no fear of hiding anything are notorious for giving statements that sound like they could incriminate them.
> 
> This video is specifically about talking to police and the US constitution, but for most lawyers, the principles apply regardless of who wants you to talk:
> 
> Dont Talk to Police - YouTube


There are two different issues here. Legally, it may be better not to talk. But from a PR standpoint, that may be the absolute worst thing you can do.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Lucky for us Rob Ford showed up with his hair buzzed super close to his scalp... Shorter then I've ever seen.
> 
> Shorter than the 1 inch minimum required for a drug test....


You're dancing at the edge of tinfoil hat territory there...


----------



## i-rui

i dunno...i've never seen him with shorter hair. just seems like weird timing....although i suppose a potential drug test is the least of his troubles...


----------



## i-rui

Globe investigation: The Ford family


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> i dunno...i've never seen him with shorter hair. just seems like weird timing....although i suppose a potential drug test is the least of his troubles...


it's funny a number of people were commenting how insanely short his hair was.

I've never seen it that short, ever. I never thought about the drug test thing, and I'm sure most who saw the more than usual cropped hair didn't either.

But I did wonder why it was so short. I wonder if his chief of staff, after telling him to go get help etc., told him well get a drug test and prove to the people you're clean if you're so ok then.

As I said, speculation is fun. But somehow, with Ford, you just know the possibility of it being true is higher than usual.


----------



## iMouse

Grab a handful of pubes :lmao: , unless he manscapes. 

_The horror, the horror .... _


----------



## groovetube

Globe investigation: The Ford family

I can't say I have much sympathy regarding this sort of attack journalism. Sure, do I care if a politician drinks or smokes pot? Of course not. I know many do. But the ones who stand up and jab a hot poker in everyone's eye and starts a war?

Sorry Robbie but you called 'game on' a long time ago. Cry me a river.


----------



## chimo

i-rui said:


> Globe investigation: The Ford family


I read that this morning. It's amazing they sat on the story for so long.


----------



## Macfury

chimo said:


> I read that this morning. It's amazing they sat on the story for so long.


I guess some of the Globe staffers were worries that the searching for the same ties to drugs might have been applied to themselves.


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> I guess some of the Globe staffers were worries that the searching for the same ties to drugs might have been applied to themselves.


Keep guessing.

Their legal team has probably blocked, it up till now.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Keep guessing.
> 
> Their legal time has probably blocked, it up till now.


wow that's weak. (your quoted) And that's being kind.

Funny, one of the major players in the article worked with my wife for some time.

Some interesting stories there too.

Funny how staunch conservatives, y'know tough on crime, don't do drugs, yadda yadda, are always found right in the worst of it.

Some people simply can't fathom how when certain people start standing on soapboxes and pointing the finger people will often end up calling them out on their astounding hypocrisy.

Just... can't... figure it out.


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> wow that's weak. (your quoted) And that's being kind.
> 
> Funny, one of the major players in the article worked with my wife for some time.
> 
> Some interesting stories there too.
> 
> Funny how staunch conservatives, y'know tough on crime, don't do drugs, yadda yadda, are always found right in the worst of it.
> 
> Some people simply can't fathom how when certain people start standing on soapboxes and pointing the finger people will often end up calling them out on their astounding hypocrisy.
> 
> Just... can't... figure it out.


You won't get any waffling from this Conservative. If Ford is guilty of doing crack he should step down and seek treatment. The incident should be investigated by the police and charges laid against all parties involved.
That said, if these allegations can not be verified, the mayor is within his right to sue the Toronto Star.
If Ford is deemed unfit for office due to the incident, in the spirit of fairness a zero tolerance drug policy should be implemented for all civic employees. Anyone failing a random drug test should be fired immediately.


----------



## mrjimmy

MacGuiver said:


> You won't get any waffling from this Conservative. If Ford is guilty of doing crack he should step down and seek treatment. The incident should be investigated by the police and charges laid against all parties involved.
> That said, if these allegations can not be verified, the mayor is within his right to sue the Toronto Star.
> If Ford is deemed unfit for office due to the incident, in the spirit of fairness a zero tolerance drug policy should be implemented for all civic employees. Anyone failing a random drug test should be fired immediately.


This story originated with Gawker.com, not The Star. The Star, along with The Globe, The National Post, The CBC, etc. etc. etc. picked it up after that. If Ford really wanted to poke at this particular hornet's nest, that's where he would go.

He won't.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> You won't get any waffling from this Conservative. If Ford is guilty of doing crack he should step down and seek treatment. The incident should be investigated by the police and charges laid against all parties involved.
> That said, if these allegations can not be verified, the mayor is within his right to sue the Toronto Star.


And as a libertarian, while I think drug use is incredibly stupid, I don't believe it is grounds for firing except if it interferes materially with performance of duty (this would be the issue), or...



MacGuiver said:


> If Ford is deemed unfit for office due to the incident, in the spirit of fairness a zero tolerance drug policy should be implemented for all civic employees. Anyone failing a random drug test should be fired immediately.


.. if it violates a pre-existing policy.

What I was trying to say earlier regarding the _Globe_ article is that previous drug abusers are often quite willing to attack others on account of _alleged_ drug use if they believe they can make a political statement. Now _that's_ hypocrisy!


----------



## MacGuiver

mrjimmy said:


> This story originated with Gawker.com, not The Star. The Star, along with The Globe, The National Post, CBC, etc. etc. etc. picked it up after that. If Ford really wanted to poke at this particular hornet's nest, that's where he would go.
> 
> He won't.


I haven't been following the story too closely. If Gawker.com are the source of the allegations, then that is where he should sue. If he doesn't sue, it would raise suspicion for me that there is some truth to the allegations. If I were faced with the same situation and innocent of the alleged offence, I'd be suing their asses off.


----------



## mrjimmy

MacGuiver said:


> I haven't been following the story too closely. If Gawker.com are the source of the allegations, then that is where he should sue. If he doesn't sue, it would raise suspicion for me that there is some truth to the allegations. If I were faced with the same situation and innocent of the alleged offence, I'd be suing their asses off.


Here's the originating story:

For Sale: A Video of Toronto Mayor Rob Ford Smoking Crack Cocaine


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> I haven't been following the story too closely. If Gawker.com are the source of the allegations, then that is where he should sue. If he doesn't sue, it would raise suspicion for me that there is some truth to the allegations. If I were faced with the same situation and innocent of the alleged offence, I'd be suing their asses off.


oh I doubt that would be very successful. Those papers has this run by lawyers before anything was published to be sure.

One story, fine, maybe 2 or 3. But when the whole thing is put together into one big picture, this is one thing I have no doubt much of it is true.

he Fords have started a war with the media, and they unfortunately, live in a glass house.


----------



## chimo

Macfury said:


> And as a libertarian, while I think drug use is incredibly stupid, I don't believe it is grounds for firing except if it interferes materially with performance of duty (this would be the issue), or...


I would add that if the person can be put in a compromising position, say with respect to public resources, then it would likely be grounds for dismissal. 

So going back to your earlier comment on the Globe reporters, if their "possible" previous drug use did not affect their reporting on this story and no public funds are at stake then you have no problem with the story.


----------



## iMouse

No, just on merit, but that is subjective, for him, methinks.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> And as a libertarian, while I think drug use is incredibly stupid, I don't believe it is grounds for firing except if it interferes materially with performance of duty (this would be the issue), or...
> 
> 
> 
> .. if it violates a pre-existing policy.
> 
> What I was trying to say earlier regarding the _Globe_ article is that previous drug abusers are often quite willing to attack others on account of _alleged_ drug use if they believe they can make a political statement. Now _that's_ hypocrisy!


I get your point and its a good one. Many of the fingers pointing at him are likely users or past users themselves of illegal drugs if not outright advocates for legalizing them.
I guess my point is that if Rob Ford is deemed unfit for mayor due to drug use then the same standard should be applied across the board. Pink slips would be flying I recon if we held all civic employees to the same standard.
That said, its been shown time and time again the many politicians have still been effective leaders despite addictions to drugs and alcohol. From what I know about Toronto, their books are in the best shape they've been in in years, unemployment is lowest in decades and the city is growing. Taxes are being held at bay. Despite his personal struggles and failings, it would seem he's done a good job of bailing a sinking ship.

Getting back to the legal issue. I think we need to start holding politicians to a higher standard or at least the standards that would be applied to Jane and Joe public. There's been a slide into corruption of late in politicians of all stripes but they seem to always get a pass. From Senators fraudulent expenses, MPs double dipping, cheating on taxes, provincial governments playing politics with power plants costing tax payers millions, there is no shortage of corruption and scandal. But nobody seems to get called out on it, fired, investigated and charged. That needs to change or the corruption will only get worse.


----------



## i-rui




----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> I get your point and its a good one. Many of the fingers pointing at him are likely users or past users themselves of illegal drugs if not outright advocates for legalizing them.
> I guess my point is that if Rob Ford is deemed unfit for mayor due to drug use then the same standard should be applied across the board. Pink slips would be flying I recon if we held all civic employees to the same standard.
> That said, its been shown time and time again the many politicians have still been effective leaders despite addictions to drugs and alcohol. From what I know about Toronto, their books are in the best shape they've been in in years, unemployment is lowest in decades and the city is growing. Taxes are being held at bay. Despite his personal struggles and failings, it would seem he's done a good job of bailing a sinking ship.
> 
> Getting back to the legal issue. I think we need to start holding politicians to a higher standard or at least the standards that would be applied to Jane and Joe public. There's been a slide into corruption of late in politicians of all stripes but they seem to always get a pass. From Senators fraudulent expenses, MPs double dipping, cheating on taxes, provincial governments playing politics with power plants costing tax payers millions, there is no shortage of corruption and scandal. But nobody seems to get called out on it, fired, investigated and charged. That needs to change or the corruption will only get worse.


except some of the politicians in question are the ones trumpeting the conservative law and order agenda, and drug enforcement.

Small detail...


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> except some of the politicians in question are the ones trumpeting the conservative law and order agenda, and drug enforcement.
> 
> Small detail...


I'm well aware of that. As I said, my criticism is of corrupt politicians of all political stripe.


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> I'm well aware of that. As I said, my criticism is of corrupt politicians of all political stripe.


Then why point out that there is the possibility that some of the reporters might use drugs themselves?


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Then why point out that there is the possibility that some of the reporters might use drugs themselves?


If the press wants to pillory a specific politician for _suspicion_ of drug use, they better not be using any themselves.


----------



## BigDL

heavyall said:


> If the press wants to pillory a specific politician for _suspicion_ of drug use, they better not be using any themselves.


It is interesting how the usual tactic of the right winged "Talk Media" has been used against one of the right wing's darlings Rob Ford.

The web site Gawker and all other media outlets have inoculated themselves from litigation with legalize weasel words. 

Rob Fords credibility has been destroyed, he says he can't defend himself on the advise of his solicitor. Who goes or takes advise from a "solicitor only" these days. Mostly people go to a lawyer who is a barrister and a solicitor. They seek and site that advise. 

Why does Rob Ford use legal weasel words? Isn't Rob Ford the straight talking, no non sense, shoot from the lip, type of politician? 

Why didn't Rob Ford just say on day one "this is ridiculous" *and* I'm suing The Star (and Gawker) into the stone age? Or some variation of this phrase. Rob Ford has not once mentioned litigation. Not once! Why not?


----------



## Macfury

chimo said:


> So going back to your earlier comment on the Globe reporters, if their "possible" previous drug use did not affect their reporting on this story and no public funds are at stake then you have no problem with the story.


I have no problems with the story period. I'm saying that for the _Globe_ to get on its high horse about the alleged drug use of individuals is hypocritical.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Rob Fords credibility has been destroyed..


Certainly not. I am waiting for proof, not speculation.


----------



## chimo

Macfury said:


> I have no problems with the story period. I'm saying that for the _Globe_ to get on its high horse about the alleged drug use of individuals is hypocritical.


Individuals perhaps, however, public figures with the power to significantly influence expenditures of a $14B annual budget need to be held at a higher level of scrutiny.


----------



## heavyall

BigDL said:


> Why didn't Rob Ford just say on day one "this is ridiculous" *and* I'm suing The Star (and Gawker) into the stone age? Or some variation of this phrase. Rob Ford has not once mentioned litigation. Not once! Why not?


If that isn't him on the tape, maybe he will sue. Letting those involved know of that plan might cause them to stop now, as opposed to continuing to build his case for him.

You make a good point though. I think politicians and public figures should sue more often when they are smeared by the press. Maybe we'd see the media start using some semblance of journalistic integrity, and actually confirm their sources before running with a 'scandal'.


----------



## Macfury

chimo said:


> Individuals perhaps, however, public figures with the power to significantly influence expenditures of a $14B annual budget need to be held at a higher level of scrutiny.


Seeing Ford has done a far better job with this budget than David Miller, it's hard to say.


----------



## John Clay

Macfury said:


> Seeing Ford has done a far better job with this budget than David Miller, it's hard to say.


:lmao:

Money isn't everything.


----------



## heavyall

Macfury said:


> Seeing Ford has done a far better job with this budget than David Miller, it's hard to say.


Yep. Even if ALL if this is true, the worst possible case scenario is like you joked about earlier: even a crackhead could do a better job than Miller.


----------



## i-rui

not really. the only people who think Ford is doing anything dramatically different with Toronto's finances are those who buy his BS :

Mayor Rob Ford

he's one vote on city council. most of his projects end up losing when it comes to a vote. the sad thing is he has stalled a much needed transit program in the city, and has shelved reports on our crumbling highways.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> If the press wants to pillory a specific politician for _suspicion_ of drug use, they better not be using any themselves.


I had considered that it might be difficult to understand what I said, but I -was- sorta kidding. Or perhaps you're simply being obtuse on purpose.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> If that isn't him on the tape, maybe he will sue. Letting those involved know of that plan might cause them to stop now, as opposed to continuing to build his case for him.
> 
> You make a good point though. I think politicians and public figures should sue more often when they are smeared by the press. Maybe we'd see the media start using some semblance of journalistic integrity, and actually confirm their sources before running with a 'scandal'.


Sure, and perhaps have politicians sue politicians. I seem to recall Harper smearing Ralph goodale during the election without proof. 

Unfortunately, things work both ways. 

But if you read the stars article on ford, you'd see that'd be a pretty tough case to win.

But saber rattling is fun I guess. Cons love that sort of thing.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Sure, and perhaps have politicians sue politicians.


That would be good too. You should not be allowed to lie to just make political points.

I don't recall the Goodale incident you refer to. Do have a link?


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> That would be good too. You should not be allowed to lie to just make political points.
> 
> I don't recall the Goodale incident you refer to. Do have a link?


I believe he's referring to these inflammatory words by Goodale:



> Deputy Liberal leader Ralph Goodale said the scandal now rests entirely at the feet of the prime minister.
> 
> "The issue is not Wright or Duffy or Wallin; the issue is Stephen Harper," Goodale said in a statement.
> 
> "The prime minister's wilful blindness is a travesty. All threads lead to him and only he can provide full accountability."


Nigel Wright, Stephen Harper's chief of staff, resigns amid Duffy scandal

However, I believe Prime Minister Harper will rise above it.


----------



## iMouse

Not unlike solid waste in a septic tank.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> That would be good too. You should not be allowed to lie to just make political points.
> 
> I don't recall the Goodale incident you refer to. Do have a link?


outlawing lying would be a pipe dream. But I'd love to see the government taken to task for all the lies I hear.

As for the goodale incident, I'm rather surprised that as someone so interested in politics, that you don't recall something that significant in the 2006 election. Something so significant in fact, that it likely swayed the election. Oh I know a few basement dwellers will croak that that couldn't possibly true, but it seems clear to me having watched tory fortunes improve after goodale was named publically in the RCMP investigation, perfectly timed right before voting.

I watched goiodale go after harper on the duffy/wright scandal, and I thought after what Harper pulled on him, which likely helped sway the 2006 election, I don't blame goodale one bit.

I hope goodale is the one to help harper wear this one, despite all the ones so quick to try and defend this scandal.

payback is a b!tch.


----------



## BigDL

Might go for some comedy relief until the Fords go on radio.












riotwire said:


> Rob Ford’s Legal Team: “Crack Expertise Required”
> 
> Disappointing some political supporters, legal advisors, and Sun News Media pundits, Rob Ford’s lawyer retaliated to accusations of smoking crack on video with the following, less than ideal, statement:
> 
> “I think unless one has expertise in crack cocaine smoking it is very difficult to gauge what a person is actually doing in an alleged video.”
> 
> And with that, a collective facepalm from every conservative in the GTA resulted in an earthquake of 5.2 magnitude on the Richter Scale.
> 
> And yes, Mayor Ford’s lawyer Dennis Morris just put “crack smoking” and “expertise” in the same sentence.
> 
> Personally, I would have gone with a “NOOOOO!!!!!!!” or perhaps a Bill Clinton-esque “I did not smoke crack with those minorities… the Somalis.”
> 
> One thing’s for certain, we should be on a city-wide —*perhaps even a world-wide*—*search for someone with an “expertise in crack cocaine smoking” and get them to analyze the tape.
> 
> Will somebody please think of the comedy?
> 
> Being one who has expertise in the English language, I took the time to break down how many different ways this statement was terrible, and not remotely a denial of anything.
> 
> DANNY MENDLOW’S EXPERT LANGUAGE BREAKDOWN:
> 
> “I think”*—*Right away, not a lot of confidence in the words about to follow.
> 
> “unless one has expertise in crack cocaine smoking”*—*Only ten words into the sentence and we’re already approaching borderline insanity levels of logic and reasoning. Clearly there is no such thing as a crack cocaine smoking expertise, unless you consider smoking a lot of crack to be a measure of expertise on the subject. In which case your expertise should surely be called into question, on account of how much crack you have smoked.
> 
> “it is very difficult to gauge”*—*Again, exceptionally soft, dodgy, rhetoric-filled language. Nothing definitive or concrete at all to deny the allegations. The words “Rob Ford Has Not Ever Smoked Crack Ever,” have yet to appear anywhere.
> 
> “what a person is actually doing in an alleged video.”*—*Sorry, what?! Even for evasive lawyer talk that one is a doozy. This statement in no way denies there is a video, nor does it address whether there is a man named Rob Ford who is smoking something in said video.
> 
> In short, the Mayor’s only real defence so far has been, “Maybe it’s meth!”
> 
> Here is an alternative sentence the lawyer might be wishing he had said instead:
> 
> “There is no video of Rob Ford smoking anything because Rob Ford does not do drugs. This whole thing is a lie. Go ahead and release the tape, because there’s nothing on it, because Rob Ford does not smoke crack. We will take legal action against those who have attempted to defame the name of our good mayor. That is all.”
> 
> But alas… no such luck.
> 
> All I can say is this: I think unless one has expertise in crack-smoking Mayors caught on tape, it is very difficult to gauge if Rob Ford will be Mayor next month.


 -Crack Expertise Required -riotwire/


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Might go for some comedy relief until the Fords go on radio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Crack Expertise Required -riotwire/


hilarious!

I hadn't heard the lawyer statements. Priceless.

Apparently, a 'former crack addict' has given his take on the whole Ford crack thing saying he doesn't think Ford did crack at all.

 I'm wondering how long it'll be before a con gleefully posts it.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Might go for some comedy relief until the Fords go on radio.


I guess the person who wrote that piece has never looked up the bizarre list of "expert witnesses" that make up various legal teams. Nothing like braying one's ignorance.


----------



## Sonal

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/25/whos-advising-him

From the Mayor's former press secretary.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/25/whos-advising-him
> 
> From the Mayor's former press secretary.


Cue the accusations of oh I donno, socialist, or maybe he's a drug user, or some other speculative reason why he isn't credible. But in the Sun? Wow, that's gotta hurt coming from probably the only paper that supports you...

I think at this point, it has gone far beyond whether one supports a left, or a right leaning mayor. Well, I suppose, at least for -some- people it has.

I'm perfectly happy with a fiscally responsible mayor. But is this an example of one? Is this, Toronto's only choice, for such a responsible mayor?

This guy, is a total car wreck. No, that's too kind. What I can't understand, is the ones who trumpeted accountability, responsibility, all the virtuous qualities that apparently, don't exist should you dare to either disagree or sit left of centre. Or even centre! Perish the thought...

The total defence of anything this mayor has done, or is doing, pretty much sucks the air out of anyone's sails regarding any of these virtuous qualities that were supposed to be some kind of second (or third?) coming of a messiah. Toronto has quickly become the laughing stock of media outlets worldwide (for those that read more than the Sun perhaps) and it has become increasingly clear, that many of his supporters haven't grasped the idea, that the mayor, needs to have the qualifications to actually _represent_ the city. 'He's a little rough around the edges', 'he dances to his own tune'. Well I can certainly accept this kind of thing from any good mayor. But Rob Ford has made those statements, a joke.

So sure, bring on a mayor who respects my tax dollars. Why wouldn't I want that? But bring on a mayor, who also respects the city of Toronto too. Because this one, clearly doesn't.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/25/whos-advising-him
> 
> From the Mayor's former press secretary.


Nothing like a press secretary scorned to bleed sour grapes.


----------



## eMacMan

To me the issue is not whether hizzoner is a crack head. I mean I am sure there are a few true blue cons who will stand by him even if they were standing beside him as the deals went down.

The issue is that the man who shares his name with Jesse James' murderer has behaved in a manner, which makes it all too easy to accept the crack allegations as factual.


----------



## groovetube

oh, and of course, rob and doug are not above accusing an innocent man of being a sicko who was taking pictures of their kids over the fence.

Just thought that was interesting given the cries of indignation.


----------



## Sonal

Some of you will find this very, very funny.
The Rob and Doug Ford Radio Recap: This is Your Radio on (Alleged) Crack | politics | Torontoist

(Others will not.)


----------



## groovetube

I actually heard the show today, I had to give it a listen. I couldn't take much more than about 15 minutes, it's hard to believe anyone relatively intelligent could get past that, they sounded like a pair of morons.

This represent Toronto? Seriously? It;s actually a lot worse than I thought.


----------



## i-rui

Warning : explicit lyrics :





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

yow^^

and so, it gets a little worse...
Toronto police spoke to Mayor Ford

I wondered about the guy who was gunned down. There hasn't been much said about the guy.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Some of you will find this very, very funny.
> The Rob and Doug Ford Radio Recap: This is Your Radio on (Alleged) Crack | politics | Torontoist
> 
> (Others will not.)


That's a pretty dull link, Sonal. This blogger doesn't really have a talent for comedy.


----------



## Macfury

From all the braying by Ford detractors, you would think some sort of meltdown in support was occurring:

Ford's support is virtually unchanged: poll | CP24.com




> "Rob Ford is really both the Teflon and Kevlar Mayor - nothing sticks to him and nothing penetrates his armour,” Forum Research President Lorne Bozinoff said in a press release


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> From all the braying by Ford detractors, you would think some sort of meltdown in support was occurring:
> 
> Ford's support is virtually unchanged: poll | CP24.com


Why would his support change? At this point people can see the media are really " larva" feeding on the innocent. 
Even with the drama that has followed him during his term, he got more done then Miller


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> Why would his support change? At this point people can see the media are really " larva" feeding on the innocent.
> Even with the drama that has followed him during his term, he got more done then Miller


I think this really fries the people down at the _Globe_ and _Star_. You can see they've truly lost it when they start to write reports trying to tie the Mayor's office to murder, interviewing unnamed staffers who won't vouch for the accuracy of their innuendo.


----------



## Sonal

True, my support for Mayor Ford has not wavered an iota since this video issue came up. It didn't affect my opinion at all.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> True, my support for Mayor Ford has not wavered an iota since this video issue came up. It didn't affect my opinion at all.


Yes, this is their point.

By the way, seeing the proposed financial debacle suggested by Metrolinx shows that Mayor Ford's strategy in keeping quiet was the correct one. That statist fool Kathleen Wynne needs to own this one.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Yes, this is their point.
> 
> By the way, seeing the proposed financial debacle suggested by Metrolinx shows that Mayor Ford's strategy in keeping quiet was the correct one. That statist fool Kathleen Wynne needs to own this one.


Yes, so he can bravely tell his supporters "The province was determined to ram a bunch of taxes down our throats, and I fought really hard to stay out of their way and let them."


----------



## whatiwant

Toronto police spoke to Mayor Ford


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Yes, so he can bravely tell his supporters "The province was determined to ram a bunch of taxes down our throats, and I fought really hard to stay out of their way and let them."


It's hard to imagine that anyone can't figure this out. You promise massive spending on subways, truly huge projects that require incredibly large piles of billions for each one, but have NO plan to actually pay for it. So if the premier considers ways of raising the cash, since I'm not aware of the fabled money tree the conservatives seem to think exists, it's ramming taxes down our throats.

The transit problem has been allowed to grow worse with a succession of governments who continued to do nothing and pass the buck forward, since no one wanted to be saddled with actually having to (gasp!) pay for it.

Perhaps Wynne should just say what Mike Harris did when he killed the eglington line, sorry no money mr. ford, you're cut off. Go raise your own cash.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Yes, so he can bravely tell his supporters "The province was determined to ram a bunch of taxes down our throats, and I fought really hard to stay out of their way and let them."


He needs to fight Kathleen Wynne in the coming election. Offering up Torontonians on the altar of government transit is no way to "engage" with this nonsense.


----------



## i-rui

so two of Ford's staff have resigned :

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford's press secretaries quit, sources say - Toronto - CBC News


perhaps related to Ford hiring more football pals on his staff?

Rob Ford hires Don Bosco assistant football coach for mayor’s office | Toronto Star

sure, city hall might not run as efficiently, but i imagine the special teams and defensive line will be much improved!


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> sure, city hall might not run as efficiently, but i imagine the special teams and defensive line will be much improved!


Good one!


----------



## groovetube

this whole Rob Ford thing has now really become a total crap show.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> this whole Rob Ford thing has now really become a total crap show.


Boss Hääwwg sure has buried all news of the latest Leaf meltdown with his familiy's antics.


----------



## groovetube

oh, just noticed that gawker, has passed their 200k goal.

I guess now to see if the video is still available and the Ford goons hasn't gotten to it yet.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> oh, just noticed that gawker, has passed their 200k goal.
> 
> I guess now to see if the video is still available and the Ford goons hasn't gotten to it yet.


Rob Ford video scandal: Ford staffer spoke with police homicide detectives | Toronto Star
Do you think the Ford's have hired thugs looking for the tape? Hopefully there's a digital copy on some server somewhere waiting for MacFury to enjoy watching it.


----------



## Macfury

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Hopefully there's a digital copy on some server somewhere waiting for MacFury to enjoy watching it.


Sure... bring it on!


----------



## groovetube

apparently word is, there's possibly more than one copy of it out there.

Rob Ford Video Copies Out There, Toronto Star's Robyn Doolittle Says

I would have been surprised that there wasn't.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> apparently word is, there's possibly more than one copy of it out there.
> 
> Rob Ford Video Copies Out There, Toronto Star's Robyn Doolittle Says
> 
> I would have been surprised that there wasn't.


Me too. If it's real, I'd be shocked if there were not many copies in many different people's hands.


----------



## CubaMark

The Star has another account of Towhey's firing... if true, it's arguably as disturbing as the crack scandal. Fired over the football coach thing? Really?

That's the guy who people want to see running Toronto? Good grief...

Rob Ford video scandal: Mayor’s two communications aides resign | Toronto Star


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> Me too. If it's real, I'd be shocked if there were not many copies in many different people's hands.


Well... there's $200-thousand for the first person to get in touch with Gawker! :heybaby:


----------



## groovetube

apparently a guy in his mid 20s was shot in the leg in the same apartment complex where the star viewed the video.

This just gets wilder by the hour.


----------



## CubaMark

Normally I'd jump to that conclusion, too... but is there a day of he week when someone _isn't_ shot in the Dixon neighbourhood?


----------



## groovetube

very true.

But when you have this many incidents occur in a short period of time with many coincidences, one has to wonder.

Man, I can't imagine supporting this buffoon, that'd be embarrassing.


----------



## groovetube

so someone made this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnT-ZI_zvdQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Is it possible? I suppose it -may- be, perhaps some video edit pros can comment. 

But the guy did admit there were a few challenges, like when ford got up and turned around, etc., which he didn't really bother to comment further on. It seems rather implausible to me, that they could find hi res footage to match so closely. If it were say a 10 second clip without much movement, then I'd say it was more plausible.

This will be seized upon I predict pretty quickly.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> so someone made this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnT-ZI_zvdQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> Is it possible? I suppose it -may- be, perhaps some video edit pros can comment.
> 
> But the guy did admit there were a few challenges, like when ford got up and turned around, etc., which he didn't really bother to comment further on. It seems rather implausible to me, that they could find hi res footage to match so closely. If it were say a 10 second clip without much movement, then I'd say it was more plausible.
> 
> This will be seized upon I predict pretty quickly.


This biggest issue for him was that he used himself as the faker model. He is so much thinner, and his head has no similar features, so he had to cut the entire head out for that floating effect. If he used another very fat guy (especially one with even remotely similar features), it would be remarkably easy to makes the imposition of the face seamless. 

The other thing he did wrong was to worry about the low quality of the source. What he needed to do was make his footage of similar lower quality, not try to up res the Ford footage. On a cell phone, you absolutely would not be able to tell.


----------



## groovetube

he also did a quick 3 second video without ford moving around, getting up and turning around.

As someone else loves to quote, hope springs eternal!


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> This biggest issue for him was that he used himself as the faker model. He is so much thinner, and his head has no similar features, so he had to cut the entire head out for that floating effect. If he used another very fat guy (especially one with even remotely similar features), it would be remarkably easy to makes the imposition of the face seamless.
> 
> The other thing he did wrong was to worry about the low quality of the source. What he needed to do was make his footage of similar lower quality, not try to up res the Ford footage. On a cell phone, you absolutely would not be able to tell.


Knowing there were enough fools willing to part collectively with $200,000 would make the effort of harvesting matching footage worthwhile.


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> he also did a quick 3 second video without ford moving around, getting up and turning around.
> 
> As someone else loves to quote, hope springs eternal!


I'm not hoping for anything, either way. He's not my mayor.

I'm just saying such a video would be pretty easy to fake.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> I'm not hoping for anything, either way. He's not my mayor.
> 
> I'm just saying such a video would be pretty easy to fake.


I guess you missed the part where it isn't so easy to fake. This guy proved nothing, beyond doing and easy 3 second movement, which didn't take into account many complexities of the original video (he quickly mentioned it, only to never address it...) that would require far more power to recreate.

I posted it because a) I thought it was funny someone would try, and b) I just knew it would be seized upon.

I was right, once again


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> I'm not hoping for anything, either way. He's not my mayor.
> 
> I'm just saying such a video would be pretty easy to fake.


Yes. I don't see how demonstrating that such a thing can be faked in just a few minutes makes a better case for people who are praying the video is real. A very sad case of pretzel logic.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford crack scandal: Fears Ford’s aide sought video spark police probe | Toronto Star

wow.

So my question is, if the video really is a fake, why would anyone need to try and retrieve it?


----------



## WCraig

Fake video? 

it is worth going back to the initial story from the Star:

Rob Ford in 'crack cocaine' video scandal | Toronto Star


> The video was taken on a smartphone by a person who said he has supplied crack cocaine to the mayor.
> 
> Throughout the video Ford’s eyes are half-closed. He lolls back in his chair, sometimes waving his arms around erratically. He raises a lighter in his hand at several points and moves it in a circle motion beneath the glass bowl of the pipe, then inhales deeply.
> 
> The Star reporters (Donovan and Doolittle) were shown the video on the evening of Friday, May 3, in the back of a car parked in an apartment complex at Dixon Rd. near Kipling Ave. in the north end of Etobicoke. The reporters were allowed to watch and listen to the video three times. After, both reporters separately made written notes of what they saw and heard. Both reporters, prior to watching the video, studied numerous city-hall-related videos of Ford and, to the best of the reporter’s abilities, they separately concluded the man in the video was Ford.
> 
> In the video, what appears to be afternoon sunlight is streaming through partially closed window blinds, lighting Ford’s face. The video ends with the ringing of a cellphone (it is not clear if it is the cellphone that is being used to video the scene). The ring tone, which is a song, startles the mayor, whose slitted eyes open a bit, and he is heard to say, “That phone better not be on.”


If fake, it is Osacar-worthy!

Craig


----------



## groovetube

WCraig said:


> Fake video?
> 
> it is worth going back to the initial story from the Star:
> 
> Rob Ford in 'crack cocaine' video scandal | Toronto Star
> 
> 
> If fake, it is Osacar-worthy!
> 
> Craig


I can't blame them for really wishing it's fake, you couldn't have predicted a more epic 'fail' for someone you defended so valiantly.

I posted that youtube mainly because I thought it was a total joke that anyone could think it'd be that easy.

Apparently, I was wrong :lmao:


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I guess you missed the part where it isn't so easy to fake.


Have you used those tools? I do that kind of stuff for a living, it is easy to fake. VERY easy.


----------



## Dr.G.

Happy Birthday, Mr. Mayor. Many happy returns of the day. Hope you get your wish if you blow out all of your birthday candles. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> Have you used those tools? I do that kind of stuff for a living, it is easy to fake. VERY easy.


I don't personally but work very closely with top guys in the field. They tell a slightly different story. Can it be faked? Yes, but no, not very easily without it being fairly easy to catch the odd weirdness.

I would however, love to see some examples, not 4 second examples, but a at least a minute and half, with a lot of body movements, as well as faking the voice.

Ultimately, is it possible it could be faked? I'd say sure, it's possible. In this case, is it plausible? I'd say probably not.

Especially when you line up all of the other events, lies, etc. But hopefully, we'll find out at some point if it was faked or not. I want to hear one way or another.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Happy Birthday, Mr. Mayor. Many happy returns of the day. Hope you get your wish if you blow out all of your birthday candles. We shall see.


:lmao:


----------



## BigDL

I am hearing reports and wanted to know Is it true that public transport is seriously delayed and there is grid lock in Toronto because a Ford cracked up around Nathan Phillips Square?


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> :lmao:


Now, now, gt, play nice on a person's birthday. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Oakbridge

heavyall said:


> Have you used those tools? I do that kind of stuff for a living, it is easy to fake. VERY easy.


If this was Stephen Harper, I'd cry fake along with all of his supporters (and I'm not a Harper supporter). Why? Because Harper hasn't gone down the deny deny deny route before only to suddenly remember, "oh yeah, I did get caught with a joint but I was remembering that I failed to provide a breath sample cause I was over the limit". 

At some point, we may all go "wow, he really didn't do it" but unfortunately for Mr. Ford, he's set a terrible precedent. Now if you were going to create a fake, he's the right guy to pick on but from what the reporters (who know his body language, speech patterns, etc.) have said, it is too accurate to be a fake.

Can it be faked? Yes. Can it be faked for the length of time on the reported video, with the accuracy? Probably not.


----------



## Macfury

Oakbridge said:


> Can it be faked for the length of time on the reported video, with the accuracy? Probably not.


What level of accuracy? Unless I see the video myself, I have no idea what a few eager beavers believe to be solid evidence. It's a lot like seeing spook photos from people who believe they've captured some excellent paranormal activity--belief is the main ingredient.


----------



## groovetube

Oakbridge said:


> If this was Stephen Harper, I'd cry fake along with all of his supporters (and I'm not a Harper supporter). Why? Because Harper hasn't gone down the deny deny deny route before only to suddenly remember, "oh yeah, I did get caught with a joint but I was remembering that I failed to provide a breath sample cause I was over the limit".
> 
> At some point, we may all go "wow, he really didn't do it" but unfortunately for Mr. Ford, he's set a terrible precedent. Now if you were going to create a fake, he's the right guy to pick on but from what the reporters (who know his body language, speech patterns, etc.) have said, it is too accurate to be a fake.
> 
> Can it be faked? Yes. Can it be faked for the length of time on the reported video, with the accuracy? Probably not.


these are all points that they're not quite willing to hear.

I think it's been pointed out numerous times that given the history, putting together all the past items and things that are beginning to come out now, it's less likely this video was a fake. Not impossible, but hey, I didn't make Ford deny deny deny all the past stuff.

I seem to recall a few posters that were pretty certain of Layton's guilt in the massage parlour. It was like they were, er, actually there! :lmao:


----------



## Oakbridge

groovetube said:


> I seem to recall a few posters that were pretty certain of Layton's guilt in the massage parlour. It was like they were, er, actually there! :lmao:


:lmao:


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> I seem to recall a few posters that were pretty certain of Layton's guilt in the massage parlour. It was like they were, er, actually there! :lmao:


We know for a fact that Layton was at that massage parlour when it was being raided for prostitution. Not only did the police notes get leaked, but Layton himself admitted he was there.


----------



## CubaMark

That's not what GrooveTube is getting at. Layton was there, yes, no question. The question is whether you believe he was there for a massage, or there for prostitution. What side of that question you come down on depends pretty much on your political leanings, it seems.


----------



## groovetube

heavyall said:


> We know for a fact that Layton was at that massage parlour when it was being raided for prostitution. Not only did the police notes get leaked, but Layton himself admitted he was there.


omg I think I got the hind leg bouncing and the tail wagging :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> That's not what GrooveTube is getting at. Layton was there, yes, no question. The question is whether you believe he was there for a massage, or there for prostitution. What side of that question you come down on depends pretty much on your political leanings, it seems.


perhaps rob ford thought that's the cool way to smoke tobacco, in a glass pipe! 

who knows, it cooooould happen!


----------



## groovetube

Digitizing a fake Rob Ford in a video is a technical impossibility | Toronto Star

A few video pros I asked said pretty much the same thing.

I'd still like to see some of the ones who do it for a living who said it's possible pull it off and/or show examples.


----------



## Macfury

heavyall said:


> We know for a fact that Layton was at that massage parlour when it was being raided for prostitution. Not only did the police notes get leaked, but Layton himself admitted he was there.


I said at the time that it was no business of mine if he frequented a rub and tug for a massage.


----------



## Sonal

Doug Ford says critics “can’t go after our fiscal record” – challenge accepted | Metro


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Doug Ford says critics “can’t go after our fiscal record” – challenge accepted | Metro


Good article. Doug ford was mostly correct.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Doug Ford says critics “can’t go after our fiscal record” – challenge accepted | Metro


the 'ford nation' just accepts blindly all of these lies, because they have to. The alternative is pretty gruesome.


----------



## iMouse

I must disagree with you on that point.

*THIS* is the definitive gruesome.


----------



## groovetube

Toronto residents resign, 2.6-million evacuated to Keswick | Yolk Region


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Good article. Doug ford was mostly correct.


by "mostly correct" do you mean "not really correct"?

because that's what i got from reading the article....


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> by "mostly correct" do you mean "not really correct"?
> 
> because that's what i got from reading the article....


:lmao::lmao::lmao:

close, but NO CIGAR!!!! ha ha ha ha ha :baby:


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> by "mostly correct" do you mean "not really correct"?
> 
> because that's what i got from reading the article....


No. I mean that the claims were substantially correct.


----------



## iMouse

Who's claims, and do you come to this fishing hole often?


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford and the blue-collar-millionaire myth | rabble.ca


----------



## groovetube

set your shedders on stun! To ensure maximum accountability!

Rob Ford’s former staffers’ emails, telephone records ordered destroyed: sources | Toronto Star


----------



## iMouse

I guess the City's business is everyone's business, except when it ain't?


----------



## Dr.G.

I think that they should just leave Mayor Ford alone and let him run the city. They don't want another Lord Conrad Black fiasco of sending an innocent man to jail. While the folks in ON are at it, they should back off Sen. Duffy as well. Bottom line -- the taxpayers of TO, ON and Canada should just keep quiet, work hard to earn their livings and pay their taxes, and let these folks do what they were elected/hired to do. 

Of course, if you buy this line of thinking, I have a great bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Paix, mes amis.


----------



## groovetube

from the looks of things, you may have a few prospective buyers G.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I have a great bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Paix, mes amis.


I still hold the deeds from the previous two sales you made to me of that particular bridge...


----------



## iMouse

Fine print is a bitch.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> from the looks of things, you may have a few prospective buyers G.


I shall make them a good price, gt. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I still hold the deeds from the previous two sales you made to me of that particular bridge...


I sold you the Williamsburg Bridge and the George Washington Bridge, Macfury. However, if you want the Brooklyn Bridge as well, that would leave you with the Triborough Bridge to round out your four aces. Interested???


----------



## iMouse

Something dropped out of your sleeve Marc.


----------



## groovetube

well he bought Harper, look what happened. He bought Ford's song and dance, and whoa, looky looky.

With odds like that I'm not sure I'd suggest buying a lottery ticket anytime soon.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> I sold you the Williamsburg Bridge and the George Washington Bridge, Macfury. However, if you want the Brooklyn Bridge as well, that would leave you with the Triborough Bridge to round out your four aces. Interested???


I want the 59th Street Bridge as well.


----------



## eMacMan

Dr.G. said:


> I think that they should just leave Mayor Ford alone and let him run the city. They don't want another Lord Conrad Black fiasco of sending an innocent man to jail. While the folks in ON are at it, they should back off Sen. Duffy as well. Bottom line -- the taxpayers of TO, ON and Canada should just keep quiet, work hard to earn their livings and pay their taxes, and let these folks do what they were elected/hired to do.
> 
> Of course, if you buy this line of thinking, I have a great bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Paix, mes amis.


Sorry but I have full title on that. Bought it back in the Raygun era.


----------



## whatiwant

Rob Ford video scandal: Mayor Ford said he knew where video was, sources say


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> Rob Ford video scandal: Mayor Ford said he knew where video was, sources say


So he knew where the faked video was being kept? Interesting.


----------



## i-rui

No, he knew where the video that "doesn't exist" was.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> No, he knew where the video that "doesn't exist" was.


That video that doesn't exist would be a video of Ford smoking crack. The video that does exist would be a fake, kept in the Dixon apartment. Simple!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> That video that doesn't exist would be a video of Ford smoking crack. The video that does exist would be a fake, kept in the Dixon apartment. Simple!


I know you hate backing down, particularly when you're having so much fun goading people into a froth, but you sound like you are getting into stretch territory.

If it's a fake, he could get ahold of it and have a few experts confirm it's a fake, and then have an excellent case for suing the Star and Gawker for libel.... I mean, someone faked a video to discredit him. What better proof of a media conspiracy than that?


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I know you hate backing down, particularly when you're having so much fun goading people into a froth, but you sound like you are getting into stretch territory.
> 
> If it's a fake, he could get ahold of it and have a few experts confirm it's a fake, and then have an excellent case for suing the Star and Gawker for libel.... I mean, someone faked a video to discredit him. What better proof of a media conspiracy than that?


I think this was pointed out a few times. But the interest in goading seems to be more important.

Which is as usual, too bad.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I know you hate backing down, particularly when you're having so much fun goading people into a froth, but you sound like you are getting into stretch territory.
> 
> If it's a fake, he could get ahold of it and have a few experts confirm it's a fake, and then have an excellent case for suing the Star and Gawker for libel.... I mean, someone faked a video to discredit him. What better proof of a media conspiracy than that?


How could he get the fake? He would have had to buy it!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> How could he get the fake? He would have had to buy it!


Maybe he could facilitate purchase for Gawker. They have the money, he has the connections... there's a deal to be made here.


----------



## i-rui

he could've got Doug to move a few bricks of Hash.

Money would be raised in no time!

P.S. this made me giggle :

https://twitter.com/80sDougFord


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> he could've got Doug to move a few bricks of Hash.
> 
> Money would be raised in no time!
> 
> P.S. this made me giggle :
> 
> https://twitter.com/80sDougFord


Some of those are funny. Twitter has a use, after all!


----------



## groovetube

Ontario Tories distance themselves from Doug Ford | Toronto Star

Hudak still excited to have Doug on board, though polls show the ford scandal is damaging the PC brand.

I say, yeah, bring him on board!!


----------



## i-rui

2 more resignations from Rob Ford's staff :

Two city hall staff members resign | 680News


----------



## Sonal

Hudak has been a lame leader for some time. That Dalton McGuinty still squeezed out a strong minority government last election only further substantiates his lame leadership.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> 2 more resignations from Rob Ford's staff :
> 
> Two city hall staff members resign | 680News


I love the way the CFTR site inadvertently puts it:



> Mayor Rob Ford’s Policy Advisor and Council Relations advisor Brian Johnston resigned on Thursday.
> 
> Shortly after that, Kia Nejatian, Rob Ford’s executive assistant also resigned.
> 
> *MORE TO COME*


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Hudak has been a lame leader for some time. That Dalton McGuinty still squeezed out a strong minority government last election only further substantiates his lame leadership.


He's not only lame, he's a lame-ass. Anyone who calls me about contributing to his campaign gets an earful from me. Last election I told him they required no financial help to deliver a budget virtually identical to that of Dusty Dalt.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I love the way the CFTR site inadvertently puts it:


lol

nice catch.

it'll be interesting to see see if Rob gets more football connections to fill in the staff holes, or if Doug will pull in more of his former drug syndicate. Probably a mixture of both.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> it'll be interesting to see see if Rob gets more football connections to fill in the staff holes, or if Doug will pull in more of his former drug syndicate. Probably a mixture of both.


If they'd formed their team that way to begin with, they'd have been in better shape!


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> If they'd formed their team that way to begin with, they'd have been in better shape!


Nothing promotes fiscal responsibility like a couple of broken legs if you don't deliver


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I love the way the CFTR site inadvertently puts it:


Nice!

Really though, does a part-time Mayor need that much staff? And if they quit, no severance to pay out! Think of the savings!


----------



## i-rui

it's better to laugh than cry. at least one young somali man is having some fun with the situation :





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Ford Must Go | Tell Rob Ford to resign


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## groovetube

Andy Byford surprised Toronto has no plan to ease congestion along waterfront | Posted Toronto | National Post

Why am I not surprised? Broad pronouncement about subways folks! without any real thought as to how to effectively spend money improving our transit system will simply lead to more billions wasted than rob ford could possibly save through cancelling plant watering services and increasing municipal parking fees.

And that will be an understatement down the -very soon- road.


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> Andy Byford surprised Toronto has no plan to ease congestion along waterfront | Posted Toronto | National Post
> 
> Why am I not surprised? Broad pronouncement about subways folks! without any real thought as to how to effectively spend money improving our transit system will simply lead to more billions wasted than rob ford could possibly save through cancelling plant watering services and increasing municipal parking fees.
> 
> And that will be an understatement down the -very soon- road.


Can you say condo-ghetto?


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> Can you say condo-ghetto?


It already is a condo ghetto. This exercise in densification seems to be an almost deliberate and perverse effort to make the city unlivable.

However, when private companies began to offer popular private bus service along the east west corridors close to the lakeshore, the city ordered them to suspend operations. This is not about solving transportation problems, this is about creating the problems, then grabbing the monopoly power of transit.


----------



## Dr.G.

Gawker reports Rob Ford alleged crack video may be 'gone' - Toronto - CBC News

Well this should put an end to the issue and allow Mayor Ford to get back to running TO. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Gawker reports Rob Ford alleged crack video may be 'gone' - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> Well this should put an end to the issue and allow Mayor Ford to get back to running TO. We shall see.


Ford and his goons got it. Many people noticed a distinct change in his attitude when he gave that statement towards the end of the week. It takes but a 5 year old to put 2 and 2 together. But, I have a feeling this is far from over. Beginning with the fact that apparently, there are a few copies of it. It's a question of when these come out. I'd prefer, perhaps a few months before the election.



jawknee said:


> Can you say condo-ghetto?


It will get there without a proper infrastructure to support it. But it would take a competent mayor to address it. Unfortunately the one we have, isn't the mayor of Toronto, but for just a part of it.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Gawker reports Rob Ford alleged crack video may be 'gone' - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> Well this should put an end to the issue and allow Mayor Ford to get back to running TO. We shall see.


It will not put an end to the speculations of people who were praying it was real. There will be endless suggestions that Ford bought the video, destroyed the video, or killed the owner of the video and ongoing suggestions that people are seeing fleeting glimpses of clandestine copies.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> It will not put an end to the speculations of people who were praying it was real. There will be endless suggestions that Ford bought the video, destroyed the video, or killed the owner of the video and ongoing suggestions that people are seeing fleeting glimpses of clandestine copies.


Well, Mayor Ford has enrolled in the Conrad Black School of How to Win Friends and Influence People, so he should survive this spat. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Macfury said:
> 
> 
> 
> It will not put an end to the speculations of people who were praying it was real. There will be endless suggestions that Ford bought the video, destroyed the video, or killed the owner of the video and ongoing suggestions that people are seeing fleeting glimpses of clandestine copies.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, Mayor Ford has enrolled in the Conrad Black School of How to Win Friends and Influence People, so he should survive this spat. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.
Click to expand...

I think you're right. The art of toying with the not so bright, knowing they'll believe anything.

I find it rather disturbing that anyone would think anyone was praying this was real. Especially since we know of the long string of incidents involving drugs and alcohol, which he also stubbornly denied until later he had to admit it. I have no doubt that it'll be only a matter of time before the truth on this one comes out, one way or another.

But I'm fa more concerned about the incredible mess and money Mr. Ford will end up costing Toronto in the end from his absolute inability to lead, or provide any intelligence when it comes to funding his misguided and incredibly expensive projects.

That will, end up costing Toronto more, than any other mayor's misdeeds.


----------



## Sonal

CBC suspects the police have it.
Gawker reports Rob Ford alleged crack video may be 'gone' - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## iMouse

Well, one guy pictured was murdered, so that actually makes sense to me.


----------



## mrjimmy

If it ever came out that the police actually had the physical evidence and were withholding info (even in the name of an active investigation) the resulting s#!+ storm would be monumental.

We always knew this would be entertaining.


----------



## iMouse

"Sorry Mr. Mayor, but a murder investigation takes precedence over your petty problems." - _Chief Blair_


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> CBC suspects the police have it.
> Gawker reports Rob Ford alleged crack video may be 'gone' - Toronto - CBC News


CBC _hopes_ the police may have it.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> CBC suspects the police have it.
> Gawker reports Rob Ford alleged crack video may be 'gone' - Toronto - CBC News


I did see that. If the police do in fact have it, it isn't likely to see the light of day.


----------



## iMouse

If so, perhaps Rob should move to legally change his name to Daley, as befitting Richard J. Daley.

He was rumoured to have had guys whacked too.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> If so, perhaps Rob should move to legally change his name to Daley, as befitting Richard J. Daley.
> 
> He was rumoured to have had guys whacked too.


In Daley's case, those same murder victims later voted Democrat!


----------



## iMouse

Sentient after death. Amazing.


----------



## groovetube

I'm sure this writer will be reduced to 'sour grapes' or some other er, 'sour grapes' waving of the hands, but this guy pretty much nails it.

Working with Rob and Doug Ford: At root, a failure of trust - The Globe and Mail



> He and Mayor Rob also spent time saving a hundred thousand dollars on sandwiches, while ignoring hundreds of millions wasted by the TTC on unnecessary capital spending, even while supposedly searching for subway funding.


There's saying you're saving money, and then there's actually being smart about it and actually pulling it off. I'm amazed that his supporters just don't get it.


----------



## i-rui

http://gawker.com/a-pipe-wielding-thug-stormed-the-rob-ford-crackhouse-s-511642073

yikes! this scandal keeps getting more and more seedy...


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> A Pipe-Wielding Thug Stormed the Rob Ford Crackhouse, Seeking Video
> 
> yikes! this scandal keeps getting more and more seedy...


You would have to be pretty gullible to think there's nothing to this whole story.

Anyone catch Doug Ford on city yesterday mouthing off and lying about a councillor who was absent for a meeting because she had a chest infection?

Not to mention the surplus which apparently was the first surplus in history where 70% went to capital costs for the following year... :lmao:

I don't know how anyone can support these lying scumbags.


----------



## Macfury

All we need to do is to find that guy called "the Source" and this case will be blown wide open!


----------



## FeXL

I found this comment remarkably prescient...



> The Toronto media, where a cop says the leader of a federal party visited a whorehouse, and you get crickets. But a drug dealer says Rob Ford used crack, and the media whips to a frenzy.
> 
> If this doesn't show how shallow they are, I don't know what will.


Linky.


----------



## CubaMark

Prostitution isn't illegal. Nor does the consumption of the service of prostitution impair one's mental ability. As for your "linky" - the plethora of animated advertising gifs for Ezra Levant and Sun News on that webpage nearly put me into an epileptic fit (and I don't have epilepsy). Always consider the source...


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Prostitution isn't illegal. Nor does the consumption of the service of prostitution impair one's mental ability. As for your "linky" - the plethora of animated advertising gifs for Ezra Levant and Sun News on that webpage nearly put me into an epileptic fit (and I don't have epilepsy). Always consider the source...


Hilarious. Bu bu but he was found in a whorehouse!!!!

Seriously?

I seemed to recall a fair amount of media surrounding that one. 

But I'm currently concerned about a completely inept mayor running Canada's largest city who was actually smoking crack, going around lying his face off about a 248 million surplus which, according to him, for the first time in Toronto HISTORY, 75% is going to a fund for capital projects.

Even though, it's city policy to do so, and the year before his taking office that would have been subject to the same policy.

Seems they are counting on their supporters not checking their er, 'facts'...


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> Hilarious. Bu bu but he was found in a whorehouse!!!!
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> I seemed to recall a fair amount of media surrounding that one.
> 
> But I'm currently concerned about a completely inept mayor running Canada's largest city who was actually smoking crack, going around lying his face off about a 248 million surplus which, according to him, for the first time in Toronto HISTORY, 75% is going to a fund for capital projects.
> 
> Even though, it's city policy to do so, and the year before his taking office that would have been subject to the same policy.
> 
> Seems they are counting on their supporters not checking their er, 'facts'...


So the inept mayor had a surplus of 25% of $248 million? How big were they in previous, more competent administrations? Toronto isn't my town but I'm curious given the flack this guy gets.


----------



## groovetube

google is your friend 

Rob Ford’s budget surplus no great departure from Miller era | Metro

However, his real ineptness, is going to cost Toronto billions in the future.

The old conservative yeah we're gonna do great big things, and cut taxes. Somehow, in the end, the math never adds up, and we end up stuck with the bill at the end. The hangover both municipally for us, and federally for everyone is going to be huge.

Not to mention McGuinty's ineptness as well. And he doesn't even have crack to blame it on. The scary thing for Ontario, is Hudak is a true one man wrecking ball that will take things for really bad to, it's time to sell the house and get outta dodge...


----------



## MacGuiver

groovetube said:


> google is your friend
> Not to mention McGuinty's ineptness as well. And he doesn't even have crack to blame it on. The scary thing for Ontario, is Hudak is a true one man wrecking ball that will take things for really bad to, it's time to sell the house and get outta dodge...


Where would you go? Seriously is there anywhere that isn't drowning in red ink? Even Alberta sitting on vast oil wealth can't balance the books. Nobody seems capable of living within their means.


----------



## iMouse

Whores are older than politicians, or is it the other way around?

It's so hard to tell the difference.


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> Where would you go? Seriously is there anywhere that isn't drowning in red ink? Even Alberta sitting on vast oil wealth can't balance the books. Nobody seems capable of living within their means.


I agree. I don't know. But the future for Toronto on this trajectory looks pretty bleak. Sure we need fiscal responsibility, who doesn't want that in a mayor and city council, but this guy is totally incompetent in leading a team and providing leadership behind smart planning. The whole crack thing, well that's simply icing on the cake. I don't care what party lines a mayor follows. I'd vote for John Tory at this point for mayor, at least the guy has a brain...

This brutal game played by politicians screaming about the other guy and low taxes and accountability and attack ads, it simply isn't helping the taxpayer one bit.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> Where would you go? Seriously is there anywhere that isn't drowning in red ink? Even Alberta sitting on vast oil wealth can't balance the books. Nobody seems capable of living within their means.


A break in massive tax increases in Toronto is helping me. If City Council would get out of the way and further cut spending, Toronto would be in great shape.


----------



## Sonal

Layton immediately gave a plausible explanation--that he was there, he didn't know it was anything but a legitimate massage place, the police approached him later to tell him not to go there again, and he didn't go. Whether you believe it or not, the story is plausible and fits the facts--he owned up to being there.

Rob Ford claims this is a massive conspiracy against him, involving multiple people and media outlets. It stretched credulity.

More to the point, he dragged on addressing the issue and when he did address it, he gave little explanation. Do I personally care what he had to say? No. But dragging it out and refusing to talk the way he did only added fuel to the fire.... it was very, very poor media handling.

Even the Sun is getting fed up with him.
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/24/fords-poor-week-ender


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Layton immediately gave a plausible explanation--that he was there, he didn't know it was anything but a legitimate massage place, the police approached him later to tell him not to go there again, and he didn't go. Whether you believe it or not, the story is plausible and fits the facts--he owned up to being there.
> 
> Rob Ford claims this is a massive conspiracy against him, involving multiple people and media outlets. It stretched credulity.
> 
> More to the point, he dragged on addressing the issue and when he did address it, he gave little explanation. Do I personally care what he had to say? No. But dragging it out and refusing to talk the way he did only added fuel to the fire.... it was very, very poor media handling.
> 
> Even the Sun is getting fed up with him.
> Ford's poor week-ender | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


In Layton's case, he really did frequent that Rub-and-Tug--that's why it made perfect sense for him to admit it.

Ford says he is innocent. What more should he say now? Do you suppose those who don't believe him will suddenly change their minds if he makes even more emphatic statements? That they'll simply leave him alone? As Levy says in the article, he will be hag-ridden until he's driven out of office or his term ends, whichever comes first.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Layton immediately gave a plausible explanation--that he was there, he didn't know it was anything but a legitimate massage place, the police approached him later to tell him not to go there again, and he didn't go. Whether you believe it or not, the story is plausible and fits the facts--he owned up to being there.
> 
> Rob Ford claims this is a massive conspiracy against him, involving multiple people and media outlets. It stretched credulity.
> 
> More to the point, he dragged on addressing the issue and when he did address it, he gave little explanation. Do I personally care what he had to say? No. But dragging it out and refusing to talk the way he did only added fuel to the fire.... it was very, very poor media handling.
> 
> Even the Sun is getting fed up with him.
> Ford's poor week-ender | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


Not only that, there isn't anyone who has said they actually seen Layton get services beyond what he has said. Of course it's more than plausible that there are massage places where, they run clandestine rub and tugs for some customers, while other customers simply get massages. Frequenting a known crack house, well, pretty tough to explain that one. There's now quite a bit of emerging evidence that Ford has frequented a crack house, and more than one person knows of the ford brothers ties to dope.

It is absolutely how Ford has handled this. I have no doubt at this point the allegations are true, and I bet more evidence will come out, Ford's best move would have been to admit, go to rehab, and I bet his for now strong base would have given him a pass.


----------



## Oakbridge

Macfury said:


> In Layton's case, he really did frequent that Rub-and-Tug--that's why it made perfect sense for him to admit it.
> 
> Ford says he is innocent. What more should he say now? Do you suppose those who don't believe him will suddenly change their minds if he makes even more emphatic statements? That they'll simply leave him alone? As Levy says in the article, he will be hag-ridden until he's driven out of office or his term ends, whichever comes first.


Ford maintained his innocence about being caught with a joint before finally "remembering". He swore he wasn't drunk at a hockey game then he "remembered".

And Ford did not say "I have *never* used crack cocaine", he said a couple of very carefully worded comments that any rookie lawyer would have challenged: "I do not use crack cocaine, nor am I an addict of crack cocaine."

Ford is tarnishing the city's reputation. Anyone who might be in the position of making a decision between cities (i.e. where to hold their next convention) who has seen at least some part of the story would probably lean away from Toronto. They may not say it was the number one reason, but it is going to factor into some decisions that will have a negative financial impact on the city AND the surrounding region.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> In Layton's case, he really did frequent that Rub-and-Tug--that's why it made perfect sense for him to admit it.
> 
> Ford says he is innocent. What more should he say now? Do you suppose those who don't believe him will suddenly change their minds if he makes even more emphatic statements? That they'll simply leave him alone? As Levy says in the article, he will be hag-ridden until he's driven out of office or his term ends, whichever comes first.


I agree that there is nothing he can say now... but had he said something immediately, and (preferably) gave a plausible explanation for what was seen ("Yes, I was hanging out with one of my ex-football players, and they gave me this weird glass ornament, what of it?") the story would have quieted down sooner.... no one would be running around to get him to answer questions because they would have been answered. Instead of days of speculating about why he won't answer, they'd have nothing to report but his answer.

He bungled the situation.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I agree that there is nothing he can say now... but had he said something immediately, and (preferably) gave a plausible explanation for what was seen ("Yes, I was hanging out with one of my ex-football players, and they gave me this weird glass ornament, what of it?") the story would have quieted down sooner.... no one would be running around to get him to answer questions because they would have been answered. Instead of days of speculating about why he won't answer, they'd have nothing to report but his answer.
> 
> He bungled the situation.


not only has he bungled the situation badly, but he carefully evaded the questions altogether, and now, evidence is steadily coming out such that, all you have to do is take it all into account, connect the dots, and we have a really really disturbing situation involving our mayor.

The comparison to Layton was pretty desperate imo.


----------



## iMouse

John Derringer came up with something on the Q this morning.

How about a Fordian Slip?


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> ...
> The comparison to Layton was pretty desperate imo.


They are called Cons for a reason. The tactic is of course called deflection. Deflection is a reliable indicator that Con perpetrator has absolutely no ability to tackle the issue in question head on.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> They are called Cons for a reason. The tactic is of course called deflection. Deflection is a reliable indicator that Con perpetrator has absolutely no ability to tackle the issue in question head on.


The attempts were pretty lame which is probably being really kind. :baby:


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I agree that there is nothing he can say now... but had he said something immediately, and (preferably) gave a plausible explanation for what was seen ("Yes, I was hanging out with one of my ex-football players, and they gave me this weird glass ornament, what of it?") the story would have quieted down sooner.... no one would be running around to get him to answer questions because they would have been answered. Instead of days of speculating about why he won't answer, they'd have nothing to report but his answer.
> 
> He bungled the situation.


If only he had said he was given a glass ornament--then our convention centres would be full again!


----------



## Sonal

If our international reputation has changed from "That's in Canada, right?" to "Wait, is that the city with the crack-smoking Mayor?" I don't think it will hurt our convention business much.


----------



## groovetube

well I guess we can scratch the whole law and order, kill the hug-a-thuggers thing off the list...


----------



## groovetube

The unanswered questions and Mayor Rob Ford’s answers so far in this scandal « Good Gravy

good questions, none of which Ford will ever answer, until he is forced to if more evidence comes out.


----------



## CubaMark

*Massive police raid launched in Toronto*





> The Rexdale home of one of the young men pictured with Mayor Rob Ford outside a suspected crack house was part of a massive multi-city police sweep early Thursday.
> 
> One police cruiser and two grey police identification vans pulled up outside Muhammad Khattak's home on Mercury Rd., a 10-minute drive northwest of the Dixon Rd. apartments.


(Toronto Star)


----------



## CubaMark

Gotta love Ford's response to media questions this morning about the raids:

*‘My cable was out’*
*Mayor Ford says he was unaware of massive police raid on complex connected to alleged video*

(NationalPost)


----------



## Macfury

I'm glad police knocked out that den of iniquity. It will make it easier for law-abiding citizens and mayors to do their work.


----------



## i-rui

but where will mayors score their crack?


----------



## groovetube

shhhh drink the kool aid they're passing around.


----------



## Sonal

Multiple news orgs are reporting on Twitter that the police were aware of the video before the Star story broke.

Correction: CTV reports this, others are re-reporting.
EXCLUSIVE: Toronto police probing alleged crack video linked to Ford weeks before story broke | CTV News


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Multiple news orgs are reporting on Twitter that the police were aware of the video before the Star story broke.


Glad to see the major news orgs coming out of the closet with that at this late date _on Twitter_. How the mighty have fallen.


----------



## Sonal

Twitter has become a part of how news is distributed now. Don't knock it.


----------



## groovetube

if it wasn't put though a printing press, it didn't happen!

da internets is just a fad I hear.


----------



## Sonal

Still, interesting how the police knew all about a video that doesn't exist....


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> but where will mayors score their crack?


Exactly what I was thinking. Ford might have to travel to Scarborough!


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Twitter has become a part of how news is distributed now. Don't knock it.


I'm laughing that you told me that it was being "reported on Twitte"--as opposed to just being reported.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I'm laughing that you told me that it was being "reported on Twitte"--as opposed to just being reported.


That was mostly because I didn't have a link to the full story yet.... I prefer to post sources.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> That was mostly because I didn't have a link to the full story yet.... I prefer to post sources.


You're just old-fashioned.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Still, interesting how the police knew all about a video that doesn't exist....


CBC just confirming from police that police are aware of the relationship between Ford and the surviving man in that infamous photo.

So much for, 'he takes pictures all kinds of people all the time...'

:lmao:

It;s quite possible, that the video becomes almost irrelevant in the end.


----------



## iMouse

Macfury said:


> I'm glad police knocked out that den of iniquity.
> 
> It will make it easier for law-abiding citizens and mayors to do their work.


And I thought you had no sense of humour?



Macfury said:


> You're just old-fashioned.


And you believe in supporting links, right?

Or are you just being funny again. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> Or are you just being funny again. :lmao:


Uh... yeah.


----------



## Dr.G.

Good to see Mayor Ford cracking down on the drug trade in the GTA. We could use a mayor like him in St.John's. Due to the influx of oil money, things are starting to get out of control re drugs. Granted, our mayor does not drink or smoke, but he seems more concerned about fostering development here in St.John's than anything else.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Good to see Mayor Ford cracking down on the drug trade in the GTA. We could use a mayor like him in St.John's. Due to the influx of oil money, things are starting to get out of control re drugs. Granted, our mayor does not drink or smoke, but he seems more concerned about fostering development here in St.John's than anything else.


:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Toronto Police investigating alleged crack video linked to Rob Ford weeks before story broke | CTV News



> CTV News has learned that Toronto Police were investigating the existence of an alleged video involving Mayor Rob Ford, several weeks before the story first appeared in the Toronto Star.
> As part of the investigation leading to the raids on Thursday, officers obtained telephone wire-tap evidence.
> A highly-placed source confirms to CTV News that on those wiretaps, persons of interest discussed that video in detail, and referred to the mayor's alleged presence in the video.
> 
> 
> Read more: Toronto Police investigating alleged crack video linked to Rob Ford weeks before story broke | CTV News


It seems more and more the existence of this video is being talked about in many different circles, including police.

This story is far more than the star or any media that supposedly has it out for him.

I'm curious as to what we'll see in the next few months, as there have been hints to much bigger stories down the line.


----------



## groovetube

Anonymous On Rob Ford's Alleged 'Crack' Video: It's In Our Crosshairs

Wow, now anonymous is in on this whole thing.

It may be time to get the popcorn.


----------



## iMouse

Finally, Rob is going to the "Big Show". :lmao:


----------



## kps

Pretty pathetic that even foreigners are playing up these rumours. Spreading the bull. 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Oh K. You'll have to try harder.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> Pretty pathetic that even foreigners are playing up these rumours. Spreading the bull.


The Rob Ford figure needs a little work, but I laughed my ass off.


----------



## kps

I found it an unfunny attack on all Torontonians not just Ford.


----------



## groovetube

I wouldn't really say it's funny either. It's sad actually.

After reading all of the clues, and connecting all the dots, I have to say it's really quite obvious, that Ford has a problem. And you know how these things go. The guy's only gonna white knuckle that for so long before the next incident.

That's just how it goes.


----------



## groovetube

Ford friend 'Dave' made calls to mayor's radio show - Toronto - CBC News
I can't say this is surprising really.


But this kind regarding plastic bags, is truly sad. Banning something is far from a 'left wing only' practice, and the charging of 5 cents for plastic bags led to a huge drop in the number of plastic bags which was the desired result. So are we to believe that the uh, right wing are for more and more plastic bags in our landfills?



> That, in my humble opinion, is fascism, and it's ludicrous that comrade [former mayor David] Miller and his merry band of big-brother, I know better than you, paternalistic, heavy-handed, Looney Tunes socialists should be setting the agenda of this great city of Toronto,” the caller said.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha ha. Cuts are ok as long as he's the one doing it and he's not on the receiving end.

Liberals tell Rob Ford they won


----------



## iMouse

I hope you're OK with your municipal taxes going up? lol


----------



## groovetube

they went up quite a bit last year already. It was called a 'reassessment'. I would expect that they will skyrocket over the next little while still as houses on my street rose by several hundreds of thousands just in the last 4 years.


----------



## iMouse

That is because you are finally getting closer to real market value assessment, just like the rest of us.

Toronto has been sheltered for years, by politicians to chicken to do what is necessary with the mill rate. It's political suicide in T.O.

Oh, just heard that New Housing Development fee might double, from $12,000 per to $24,000. <eek>


----------



## Sonal

There's a cap on how much they can raise property taxes. Strangely, ours didn't go up much though prices shot up over the last year, but then, it turns out they do something weird to average out the rise.... 

And frankly, we have low taxes and a city with diverse and pressing needs.... Money has to come from somewhere.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> That is because you are finally getting closer to real market value assessment, just like the rest of us.
> 
> Toronto has been sheltered for years, by politicians to chicken to do what is necessary with the mill rate. It's political suicide in T.O.
> 
> Oh, just heard that New Housing Development fee might double, from $12,000 per to $24,000. <eek>


yes, we -were- at one point. We had ridiculously low property tax rates. My house last year was pretty much brought up well past what we paid. If I recall it rises so much a year, so we're paying pretty much what anyone in 905 is, probably more.

I don't see Ford as some great keep taxes low hero by any means. He's saved us 60 bucks a year in vehicle reg fees.

Power to the people!

Probably the most entertaining was ford exclaiming that their 260 ish million surplus with 70% going to capital costs being the first in TO history.


----------



## iMouse

Sonal said:


> And frankly, we have low taxes and a city with diverse and pressing needs.... Money has to come from somewhere.


Yes, and city politicians cry that this is because people of all strips are drawn to arguably 'the best city in the World'.

Well, 'the best province in the World' is no longer willing to pay for Toronto's accolades.

Time to pay the piper folks.


----------



## groovetube

iMouse said:


> Yes, and city politicians cry that this is because people of all strips are drawn to arguably 'the best city in the World'.
> 
> Well, 'the best province in the World' is no longer willing to pay for Toronto's accolades.
> 
> Time to pay the piper folks.


perhaps the 'best city in the world' is tired of filling provincial coffers.


----------



## Sonal

iMouse said:


> Yes, and city politicians cry that this is because people of all strips are drawn to arguably 'the best city in the World'.
> 
> Well, 'the best province in the World' is no longer willing to pay for Toronto's accolades.
> 
> Time to pay the piper folks.


Then the best province in the world is just going to get dragged down with the city, so hope you enjoy the ride down. 

In any case, blame Harris for cutting and downloading so much on to us years ago...


----------



## iMouse

Declare yourselves a City-State, and collect your own Income Taxes.


----------



## groovetube

with probably 5 million plus in gta, we're bigger than most provinces.

So, no problemo. We have far less area/roads/blah blah to worry about then.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> they went up quite a bit last year already. It was called a 'reassessment'. I would expect that they will skyrocket over the next little while still as houses on my street rose by several hundreds of thousands just in the last 4 years.


GT, sorry for the derail, but when I hear about houses rising so much and so fast, a feeling of doom washes over me. Our house has pretty much doubled in 10 and I find that astonishing.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> GT, sorry for the derail, but when I hear about houses rising so much and so fast, a feeling of doom washes over me. Our house has pretty much doubled in 10 and I find that astonishing.


I know. When we bought this one in around the heavy drop 4ish years ago, everyone said we would lose big because the sky was falling. This isn't our first house by any means and I know the RE market a little better, but I'm really surprised how much things went up just since we bought in 09. 

Things sure have changed since getting our first house in the late 90s for a fraction of what houses are now. I suspect that between demand, and short supply things at worst will only temper briefly in a downturn. The 'house farms' in the suburbs however may not fare so well.

And yes, property taxes through reassessments will soar. Our next reassessments will start to head to hundreds of thousands past what we paid. Not a huge bonus unless you intend to sell. We love our place and the neighbourhood we're in.


----------



## mrjimmy

More antics from some Etobicoke High Schoolers....

Wait a minute...

Rob Ford's friend 'Dave' made calls to mayor's radio show - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## CubaMark

*Stay Mayor: free Android game based on Toronto Mayor Rob Ford's scandals*





> Stay Mayor is a free Android game based on the horrifying, hilarious misadventures of Toronto Mayor Rob "Laughable Bumble****" Ford. In order to win, you play the mayor "as he flees from reporters, avoids crack pipes, and tries to pick up as much cash as possible in order to buy the alleged video before Gawker gets it. The player can pick up footballs along the way and lob them at nasty cameramen who try to get in the mayor's way."


(Globe & Mail via BoingBoing)


----------



## groovetube

John Tory thinking about another run for Toronto mayor | Toronto Star

fiscally responsible, and has a brain!

Win win.

Buh bye ford.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> John Tory thinking about another run for Toronto mayor | Toronto Star
> 
> fiscally responsible, and has a brain!
> 
> Win win.
> 
> Buh bye ford.


Not so quick. Tory was once one of Ted Roger's henchmen when they bought our company. He was dumber than a bag of hammers when it came to simple understanding of our industry. Run a city? Not likely.


----------



## mrjimmy

SINC said:


> He was dumber than a bag of hammers/ Run a city? Not likely.


I would be satisfied if our current Mayor could at least achieve that...


----------



## groovetube

Well if John Tory is dumber than a bag of hammers, that doesn't bode too well for Ford...:lmao::lmao:

Though I think Rogers is a pretty successful business...


----------



## iMouse

If the measure of that is hate, I grant you that one.


----------



## iMouse

<Internet fart>


----------



## whatiwant

That was like a flower. A twolip.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Not so quick. Tory was once one of Ted Roger's henchmen when they bought our company. He was dumber than a bag of hammers when it came to simple understanding of our industry. Run a city? Not likely.


Heaven help us all. Tory is an idiot. I'd sooner see another term with Rob Ford in office. Only Olivia Chow could make me hold my nose and vote for him.


----------



## mrjimmy

Kathleen Wynne got Rob Ford fired as Don Bosco coach? ‘Ludicrous,’ Catholic board says | Toronto Star

Wow, these ninnies really must think we're stupid. 

Perhaps they're targeting their base. beejacon


----------



## i-rui

Guilty plea in killing of man linked to Rob Ford scandal - Toronto - CBC News



> Instead, Hashimi has agreed to a sentence of nine years in prison. In exchange, the Crown will not have to present disclosure to the defence, and the police evidence in his case — including wiretaps, surveillance, and any seized cellphones, laptops or videos — won’t be presented in open court.
> 
> Toronto criminal defence lawyer Edward Sapiano, who is not involved in the case, called the plea deal "unprecedented."
> 
> "In 20 years of practice I have never seen a guilty plea on a homicide without disclosure," said Sapiano. "And in less than three months! There is absolutely something going on here."


----------



## iMouse

Do you suspect the 'the fix' is in?

Can this get any uglier?

Well stay tuned people, watch, and learn.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> Guilty plea in killing of man linked to Rob Ford scandal - Toronto - CBC News


wow.


----------



## CubaMark

_*For those who haven't bothered to click the linky...*_



> The plea deal comes just over 2½ months after admitted killer Nisar Hashimi turned himself in to police in connection with the shooting death of Anthony Smith outside a Toronto nightclub in March. It also means evidence surrounding the crack video controversy won't have to be presented in open court.





> Toronto criminal defence lawyer Edward Sapiano, who is not involved in the case, called the plea deal "unprecedented."
> 
> "In 20 years of practice I have never seen a guilty plea on a homicide without disclosure," said Sapiano. "And in less than three months! There is absolutely something going on here."





> "The questions over Rob Ford's possible involvement [with alleged drug dealers] will remain unanswered as a result," he said.





> CBC News and other media organizations are bringing court applications in Toronto asking a judge to unseal various search warrants and police documents tied to the ongoing drug investigations, so that the public can know whether Toronto's mayor is in any way implicated in illegal activity.


----------



## groovetube

I bet there's a copy sitting somewhere, waiting for the next election...


----------



## mrjimmy

CubaMark said:


> _*For those who haven't bothered to click the linky...*_


I'll be shocked if they'll be able to keep this buried. It reeks of a cover up. The press are salivating, circling their prey.

And thank God for that. In a Harper media controlled world, the Ezra Levant's would be waving their hands saying nothing to see here.


----------



## groovetube

wow. only 9 years for 1st degree murder. 9 years for going up to someone and shooting him right on the street.

What happened to the whole law and order thing where this isn't supposed to happen? This reeks.


----------



## iMouse

He'll likely get a nice pay-day, when he gets out early, for 'good behaviour'.

It's called taking one for the Ford team.


----------



## groovetube

NEWSTALK 1010 - IN-DEPTH RADIO :: LISTEN: Media lawyers to get access to docs linked to 'crack video' - Local News :: Local News Stories

Looks like this has moved a step closer to finding out any details on Ford's possible involvement.


----------



## iMouse

Well, hopefully that will open it up to some sort of Freedom Of Information action.

What makes lawyers so trustworthy anyway? Are they making better ones now?


----------



## Macfury

Nine years seems like a pretty harsh sentence for first degree murder, by the standards of many Canadian courts.

But how would the Crown benefit by carrying water for Ford, a local politician?


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford reopens transit debate, calls again for Scarborough LRT to be replaced by subway line | Posted Toronto | National Post

There he goes again, making all kinds of grand announcements, that costs billions of dollars, but has no clue where the money will actually come from.

If he actually does get his way and things begin, we the toronto taxpayers are going to be stuck with one heck of a massive tax bill that some poor 'next guy' is going to have to either fill in the holes, or raise taxes in a big way.


----------



## Sonal

Cllr Matlow posted some numbers on changing from LRT to subway.
Scarborough rapid transit: The real costs of changing tracks now - Josh Matlow, Toronto City Councillor for Ward 22, St. Paul's


----------



## groovetube

This is truly hard to believe.

I have said from the beginning that this mayor will leave us in a fiscal mess beyond what any will have left us in recent memory. Hopefully council will sensibly override this wreckless mayor before too much damage is done.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Nine years seems like a pretty harsh sentence for first degree murder, by the standards of many Canadian courts.


First degree murder carries a sentance of life imprisonment in canada with the average incarceration being over 22 years. So no, 9 years (who knows how much time actually served) is nothing if it was indeed a premeditated murder.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> First degree murder carries a sentance of life imprisonment in canada with the average incarceration being over 22 years. So no, 9 years (who knows how much time actually served) is nothing if it was indeed a premeditated murder.


You're right, i-rui.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Whew boy. Hope he knows not to drop the soap when imprisoned.


----------



## groovetube

T.O.'s Board of Health approves report supporting safe-injection sites | CP24.com



> On his weekly radio show on NewsTalk 1010 on Sunday, Ford suggested safe injection sites would facilitate drug use in Toronto.


Ford once again shows his totally lack of any reasoning power.


----------



## CubaMark

*Is this the Rob Ford cracktape? - YouTube*


----------



## Macfury

Embedding disabled.


----------



## groovetube

Scarborough subway would require tax increase: report | CP24.com

Well. Stuff just got serious, especially to those who want lower taxes.

So, we have a mayor, who despite all the facts that say a subway will not only never have the ridership it should have for many decades (if ever) and will be close to half the people the LRT would be, have way less stations, and is shorter, STLL, wants to blow likely a billion MORE dollars, and is now agreeing to raise our property taxes, just so he can play politics with scarborough and get his subway.

Do I have that about right? I think I do. If anyone thinks that this is going to leave Toronto with just a faction percentage property tax increases and that'll pay for it, they're dreaming. I hear robbie is going to his buddy flaherty for half a billion, when we know the feds are blowing anything and everything out to try and stem the bleeding of their orgy of spending for the last 7 years.

Good luck with that.


----------



## iMouse

He's just trying to best McGimpey's gas-plant score.

Perhaps he was raised on Frogger, or some such game?


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## groovetube

Subway in Scarborough would be a transit mismatch: Cohn | Toronto Star

Hard to believe that Ford's supporters could possibly be behind an incredible waste of taxpayers dollars, and a property tax increase to fund it to boot.

Absolutely, unbelievable.


----------



## whatiwant

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_vCpKUNRBEw[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

I'm sorry but any card carrying fiscal conservative with an IQ above 60 who buys this mind numbing stupidity really should have a good long think about who they are supporting.

This will make any debacle previous pale in comparison to the sheer monstrosity of wasted billions, simply to buy votes.

Words cannot describe this.


----------



## i-rui

Visualizing Mayor Rob Ford’s 30-year debt plan for funding the Scarborough subway | Metro

good article on the true cost of what Ford is proposing. do the fiscally conservative voters really want a portion of their property taxes for the next *30 years * go to pay for a few subway stops in scarborough? especially when an LRT would do pretty much the same thing for less?

this isn't about financing public transit, this is about subsidizing Ford's re-election campaign. i have a huge problem with one penny of my taxes going to that.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i have a huge problem with one penny of my taxes going to that.


Transit financing should come out of transit fares. End of story.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> Visualizing Mayor Rob Ford’s 30-year debt plan for funding the Scarborough subway | Metro
> 
> good article on the true cost of what Ford is proposing. do the fiscally conservative voters really want a portion of their property taxes for the next *30 years * go to pay for a few subway stops in scarborough? especially when an LRT would do pretty much the same thing for less?
> 
> this isn't about financing public transit, this is about subsidizing Ford's re-election campaign. i have a huge problem with one penny of my taxes going to that.


It was clear from the get-go this guy was going to create the biggest financial mess any mayor has ever created. Just imagine fr a second if he got his way on everything he wanted. We'd be paying through the nose for the next century for this guy's colossal stumbles.


----------



## groovetube

Councillors vote for subway extension for Scarborough | CP24.com

Well fiscal conservatives, get ready to enjoy paying for this debacle for a while.

Starting with your property taxes. Enjoy. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

While I don't support any transit extensions that are not funded entirely by fares, an increase of 1.1 per cent to 2.4 per cent in all likelihood sits within Ford's promise not to raise taxes by more than the rate of inflation, so he is keeping his promise.

I'm amazed Ford was able to pull this one off, against all odds.


----------



## iMouse

He knows where the bodies will be buried.


----------



## Macfury

iMouse said:


> He knows where the bodies will be buried.


Everyone's talking about Scarborough subways now--and silent on crack habits!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> While I don't support any transit extensions that are not funded entirely by fares, an increase of 1.1 per cent to 2.4 per cent in all likelihood sits within Ford's promise not to raise taxes by more than the rate of inflation, so he is keeping his promise.
> 
> I'm amazed Ford was able to pull this one off, against all odds.


Given that this is all contingent on funding from the province and the feds, and given that the province has said they aren't coughing up any more for new projects and that the City will have to absorb all costs associated with fees, so far all he's pulled off is a delay that can spun into "It's someone else's fault!"


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Given that this is all contingent on funding from the province and the feds, and given that the province has said they aren't coughing up any more for new projects and that the City will have to absorb all costs associated with fees, so far all he's pulled off is a delay that can spun into "It's someone else's fault!"


Shades of Larry Obrien in Ottawa. 

The property tax increase will be over and above what they would normally be, and Toronto will be saddled with these huge costs for many many years. Not a peep from fiscal conservatives. Perhaps they're just standing there nervously side glancing wondering if this will blow over.

Classic case if another conservative yelling about fiscal responsibility only to waste time, more money, on an even bigger debacle.

I sincerely hope the 'other guys fault' occurs and we can go on with someone with more intelligence. In the meantime, Scarborough will have lost years and have to go without anything for a while.

Smart stuff.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Given that this is all contingent on funding from the province and the feds, and given that the province has said they aren't coughing up any more for new projects and that the City will have to absorb all costs associated with fees, so far all he's pulled off is a delay that can spun into "It's someone else's fault!"


He's pulled off a vote in City Council that was declared an impossibility.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## groovetube

Pretty much.

If that is some sort of victory, that's pretty sad.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> He's pulled off a vote in City Council that was declared an impossibility.


Really? To me, it seems that it's historically been rather easy to pass delays on the transit file....


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Really? To me, it seems that it's historically been rather easy to pass delays on the transit file....



If all they were doing was delaying transit spending, I would campaign for each and every one of them.


----------



## i-rui

this has little to do with transit spending, but everything to do with Ford trying to buy scarborough votes for the next election. Hence why he spent thousands on hosting his 'Ford fest' in scarborough.

If he wants to buy votes with hotdogs and burgers out of his own pocket thats one thing, but quite a different thing when he tries to buy votes with subways on the tax payers dime.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> this has little to do with transit spending, but everything to do with Ford trying to buy scarborough votes for the next election. Hence why he spent thousands on hosting his 'Ford fest' in scarborough.
> 
> If he wants to buy votes with hotdogs and burgers out of his own pocket thats one thing, but quite a different thing when he tries to buy votes with subways on the tax payers dime.


Like Miller ordering the expensive unified garbage can system as a payoff to unions.


----------



## i-rui

no, actually nothing like that at all.

Miller didn't throw BBQs for the union, and a portion of my property taxes weren't reserved for the program to service any debt for 30 years. not to mention that union members do not pose any significant # to sway an election....and are dwarfed by residents of scarborough.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> this has little to do with transit spending, but everything to do with Ford trying to buy scarborough votes for the next election. Hence why he spent thousands on hosting his 'Ford fest' in scarborough.
> 
> If he wants to buy votes with hotdogs and burgers out of his own pocket thats one thing, but quite a different thing when he tries to buy votes with subways on the tax payers dime.


Feels a bit like the liberals are doing the same thing. If they were sitting with a majority they likely would have told Ford to shove it.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> no, actually nothing like that at all.
> 
> Miller didn't throw BBQs for the union, and a portion of my property taxes weren't reserved for the program to service any debt for 30 years. not to mention that union members do not pose any significant # to sway an election....and are dwarfed by residents of scarborough.


Transit City, the gift to the left that Ford thankfully put the kibosh on.


----------



## i-rui

transit city served the entire city and wasn't localized to a specific area. it may not have been perfect, but it was at least some kind of solution to the city's transit problem.

3 subway stops in scarborough will do next to nothing to alleviate the traffic problem. it will just cost a tonne of money.


----------



## i-rui

mrjimmy said:


> Feels a bit like the liberals are doing the same thing. If they were sitting with a majority they likely would have told Ford to shove it.


provincial politicians have to respect municipal council votes (even when they're foolish).

i would draw a parallel to the liberals decision to cancel the gas plants. it was politics at it's worse, and cost everyone hundreds of millions just so they could buy a few votes.

a scarborough subway will actually cost more, although there will at least be something to show for it. not that i'd care. i imagine most torontonians will never set a foot in those east end stations.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> transit city served the entire city and wasn't localized to a specific area. it may not have been perfect, but it was at least some kind of solution to the city's transit problem.
> 
> 3 subway stops in scarborough will do next to nothing to alleviate the traffic problem. it will just cost a tonne of money.


By the time those stations are built the downtown core will be paralyzed from all the new development going in. Also, imagine the the highways...


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> transit city served the entire city and wasn't localized to a specific area. it may not have been perfect, but it was at least some kind of solution to the city's transit problem.
> 
> 3 subway stops in scarborough will do next to nothing to alleviate the traffic problem. it will just cost a tonne of money.


Well said. No, it wasn't perfect, but it would have improved things considerably much aster and fr much less money.

It's rather astounding to see the hard right lining up behind a (no) plan to spend billions in boondoggles that is nothing but a massive waste of money not result in good solutions, and only serve to line the pockets of them big bad unions they love to hate.

It makes you laugh pretty hard. It's as if they don't see their own hypocrisy!


----------



## CubaMark

*Rob Ford Kickstarter/Crackstarter Donations To Be Given To Canadian Organizations*



> Roughly $200,000 raised in the hopes of buying an alleged video appearing to show Toronto Mayor Rob Ford smoking crack cocaine will instead be going to several Canadian organizations.
> 
> U.S.-based gossip website Gawker had promised to donate the money collected through an online campaign if the video didn't surface.
> 
> Six weeks after reaching its fundraising goal, the site published a message Thursday saying the cash will be split between four Canadian organizations dealing with issues related to substance abuse.
> 
> It named the Somali Canadian Association of Etobicoke, the South Riverdale Community Health Centre, Unison Health and Community Services and the Ontario Regional Addictions Partnership Committee.
> 
> Each organization will receive about $46,200


(HuffPo)


----------



## CubaMark

Police investigating death of man in photo linked to alleged Ford video seized several cellphones from accused killer | National Post


----------



## Sonal

Man stabbed over alleged Rob Ford crack video | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

Seems like someone was trying to use the supposedly non-existent video to secure a plea bargain.... no dice.

Also, Warren Kinsella says he knows a few things:
The Rob Ford crack video: the truth | Warren Kinsella


----------



## Macfury

Siad should just have sold he video to Gawker do he could have hired a better lawyer.

Kinsella's explanation of his extraordinary knowledge of the video:



> That’s for me to know, etc.
> 
> If you dispute it, sue me. I dare you...


----------



## Lawrence

The photo that gets more incriminating all the time - The GridTO


----------



## groovetube

those media outlets and their smear campaign!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM37L88cjjk

"Slurring" Rob Ford causes stir at street festival | NOW Magazine


----------



## Macfury

After years of denying that he gets his left-wing news from _NOW Magazine_, we finally get the truth.


----------



## SINC

macfury said:


> after years of denying that he gets his left-wing news from _now magazine_, we finally get the truth.


:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Wow. Someone's bored... that's the link that was being passed around on twitter. It's everywhere.

You fellows keep on calling everyone liars turning this place into a craphole, while the rest of us act like adults and talk about news. k?


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Wow. Someone's bored... that's the link that was being passed around on twitter. It's everywhere.


Yep, saw it last night. Journos from G&M, the Star, the Sun, the Post, the Grid, Metro, NOW, etc. were discussing it.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Yep, saw it last night. Journos from G&M, the Star, the Sun, the Post, the Grid, Metro, NOW, etc. were discussing it.


So many outlets to choose from, and yet only one cited--the lefty bathroom reader: NOW!


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Yep, saw it last night. Journos from G&M, the Star, the Sun, the Post, the Grid, Metro, NOW, etc. were discussing it.


I see it now on the other news sources. The now link is the one I see posted everywhere on twitter and Facebook. (facebook is where I saw it originally)

But no surprise that all the other outlets are going to pile on to this. It's no longer a smear campaign by the left.


----------



## Macfury

What's shocking is that even amidst all of these allegations, Ford is still a better mayor than David Miller.

I wish people would stop going on about that dolt John Tory running for mayor again. That sad sack's political capital was expended long ago.


----------



## John Clay

Macfury said:


> What's shocking is that even amidst all of these allegations, Ford is still a better mayor than David Miller.
> 
> I wish people would stop going on about that dolt John Tory running for mayor again. That sad sack's political capital was expended long ago.


:lmao:

I'd take Miller back in a heartbeat.


----------



## Lawrence

Twitter has been busy, Mayor seen drunk at the Taste of the Danforth,
Possibly even drove home drunk, Movies are on Youtube.


----------



## SINC

Lawrence said:


> Twitter has been busy, Mayor seen drunk at the Taste of the Danforth,
> Possibly even drove home drunk, Movies are on Youtube.


And no one here, of course, has ever done either of these things in their lifetime?


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> And no one here, of course, has ever done either of these things in their lifetime?


Drunk at Taste of the Danforth or driven drunk? Had videos of me drunk posted taken and posted on youtube? No. Can't say I have.

But then, no one's ever wondered if I have a substance abuse problem either.


----------



## Macfury

I suspect that Twitter has become the ultimate leveler by turning men into the gossips they once accused women of being. Even that fey name-Twitter-is appropriate.


----------



## Macfury

John Clay said:


> :lmao:
> 
> I'd take Miller back in a heartbeat.


There's no accounting for taste! The city was going downhill under Miller. It's in a state of stasis with Ford, with a few small improvements made along the way. The next mayor really needs to kick some gravy train ass.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Drunk at Taste of the Danforth or driven drunk? Had videos of me drunk posted taken and posted on youtube? No. Can't say I have.
> 
> But then, no one's ever wondered if I have a substance abuse problem either.


ha ha ha, yeah me neither! :lmao:


----------



## SINC

Sonal said:


> Drunk at Taste of the Danforth or driven drunk? Had videos of me drunk posted taken and posted on youtube? No. Can't say I have.
> 
> But then, no one's ever wondered if I have a substance abuse problem either.


I meant simply 'been drunk' or 'driven drunk'. I doubt many here could not claim to never have done either, so why not Ford? He's human too.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> I meant simply 'been drunk' or 'driven drunk'. I doubt many here could not claim to never have done either, so why not Ford? He's human too.


Driven drunk? Never. And been as drunk as Ford appears to be? (i.e., walking around asking random people on the street where the party is.) Not since my early 20s if that. And my husband, in both cases, never. I can think of many other people in the same boat. 

As for why not Ford, well, sure, he has perfect right to go out and get sloshed if he wants. 

But as a public figure and one who has had numerous people publicly question whether or not he has a substance abuse problem, or ask him to seek help for a substance abuse problem, and who has a well-known public record of behaving badly when drunk, he should also expect to garner a lot of media attention for going out and getting sloshed.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> But as a public figure and one who has had numerous people publicly question whether or not he has a substance abuse problem, or ask him to seek help for a substance abuse problem, and who has a well-known public record of behaving badly when drunk, he should also expect to garner a lot of media attention for going out and getting sloshed.


Alcohol is not a substance!


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Driven drunk? Never. And been as drunk as Ford appears to be? (i.e., walking around asking random people on the street where the party is.) Not since my early 20s if that. And my husband, in both cases, never. I can think of many other people in the same boat.
> 
> As for why not Ford, well, sure, he has perfect right to go out and get sloshed if he wants.
> 
> But as a public figure and one who has had numerous people publicly question whether or not he has a substance abuse problem, or ask him to seek help for a substance abuse problem, and who has a well-known public record of behaving badly when drunk, he should also expect to garner a lot of media attention for going out and getting sloshed.


I was thinking the same thing. Even some of the waste cases I know haven't either. And they don't go walking around downtown like that either.

And none of them, are mayors of the largest city in the country attending a major city event too 

I mean wow, look at Toronto Sun right now, it's top header news!

Ford supporters must be proud!


----------



## John Clay

Macfury said:


> Alcohol is not a substance!


Are you being facetious? Alcohol is most certainly a substance.


----------



## groovetube

John Clay said:


> Are you being facetious? Alcohol is most certainly a substance.


of course. But stating obvious things like this gets attention.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Alcohol is not a substance!


In the same way that Ford is not a Mayor?


----------



## SINC

It's not a substance:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Alcohol (disambiguation).

The hydroxyl (OH) functional group with bond angle, in a generic alcohol molecule


Ball-and-stick model of the hydroxyl (OH) functional group in an alcohol molecule. The three "R's" stand for carbon substituents or hydrogen atoms.

In chemistry, an alcohol is an organic compound in which the hydroxyl functional group (-OH) is bound to a carbon atom. In particular, this carbon center should be saturated, having single bonds to three other atoms.[1]

An important class of alcohols are the simple acyclic alcohols, the general formula for which is CnH2n+1OH. Of those, ethanol (C2H5OH) is the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages, and in common speech the word alcohol refers specifically to ethanol.

Other alcohols are usually described with a clarifying adjective, as in isopropyl alcohol (propan-2-ol) or wood alcohol (methyl alcohol, or methanol). The suffix -ol appears in the IUPAC chemical name of all substances where the hydroxyl group is the functional group with the highest priority; in substances where a higher priority group is present the prefix hydroxy- will appear in the IUPAC name. The suffix -ol in non-systematic names (such as paracetamol or cholesterol) also typically indicates that the substance includes a hydroxyl functional group and, so, can be termed an alcohol. But many substances, particularly sugars (examples glucose and sucrose) contain hydroxyl functional groups without using the suffix.

In everyday life "alcohol" without qualification usually refers to ethanol, or a beverage based on ethanol (as in the term "alcohol abuse").


----------



## John Clay

SINC said:


> It's not a substance:
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> For other uses, see Alcohol (disambiguation).
> 
> The hydroxyl (OH) functional group with bond angle, in a generic alcohol molecule
> 
> 
> Ball-and-stick model of the hydroxyl (OH) functional group in an alcohol molecule. The three "R's" stand for carbon substituents or hydrogen atoms.
> 
> In chemistry, an alcohol is an organic compound in which the hydroxyl functional group (-OH) is bound to a carbon atom. In particular, this carbon center should be saturated, having single bonds to three other atoms.[1]
> 
> An important class of alcohols are the simple acyclic alcohols, the general formula for which is CnH2n+1OH. Of those, ethanol (C2H5OH) is the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages, and in common speech the word alcohol refers specifically to ethanol.
> 
> Other alcohols are usually described with a clarifying adjective, as in isopropyl alcohol (propan-2-ol) or wood alcohol (methyl alcohol, or methanol). The suffix -ol appears in the IUPAC chemical name of all substances where the hydroxyl group is the functional group with the highest priority; in substances where a higher priority group is present the prefix hydroxy- will appear in the IUPAC name. The suffix -ol in non-systematic names (such as paracetamol or cholesterol) also typically indicates that the substance includes a hydroxyl functional group and, so, can be termed an alcohol. But many substances, particularly sugars (examples glucose and sucrose) contain hydroxyl functional groups without using the suffix.
> 
> In everyday life "alcohol" without qualification usually refers to ethanol, or a beverage based on ethanol (as in the term "alcohol abuse").


sub·stance 
/ˈsəbstəns/
Noun
A particular kind of matter with uniform properties: "a waxy substance".
*An intoxicating, stimulating, or narcotic chemical or drug*, esp. an illegal one.
Synonyms
matter - essence - material - gist

Alcohol is intoxicating, and it is a chemical. Thus, a substance which can be abused.


----------



## SINC

The following websites, universities and the centre for disease control clearly separate alcohol from substances:

Alcohol & Substance Abuse, Addiction, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) Cult & Depression

Alcohol and Substance Abuse Measurement

Alcohol and Substance Abuse Center

Recognition of Alcohol and Substance Abuse - American Family Physician

http://brightfutures.aap.org/pdfs/Preventive Services PDFs/Screening.PDF

CDC - Workplace Health - Implementation - Alcohol and Substance Misuse


----------



## heavyall

You guys are sure lucky in Toronto to have a mayor who isn't afraid to just be a real human being. Most of the things I hear his opponents criticize him about are things that make me like him even more.


----------



## Sonal

I wasn't aware that we'd ever had robot-Mayors in Toronto, so they have all been real human beings.


----------



## Macfury

John Clay said:


> Are you being facetious? Alcohol is most certainly a substance.


"Substance" is a catch-all for something that leads to non-alcohol impairment.


----------



## i-rui

heavyall said:


> You guys are sure lucky in Toronto to have a mayor who isn't afraid to just be a real human being. Most of the things I hear his opponents criticize him about are things that make me like him even more.


you're a big fan of smoking crack and hanging out with criminals?


----------



## Sonal

I have to give Ford credit for this... this time, he got on the air and promptly addressed what happened. Said he'd a few drinks, and apologized if he'd offended anyone (no reports indicate that he had, so that was a nice touch.)

It's a marked change from his previous history of denying everything.


----------



## heavyall

i-rui said:


> you're a big fan of smoking crack and hanging out with criminals?


Let me guess, YOU have the tape?


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I have to give Ford credit for this... this time, he got on the air and promptly addressed what happened. Said he'd a few drinks, and apologized if he'd offended anyone (no reports indicate that he had, so that was a nice touch.)
> 
> It's a marked change from his previous history of denying everything.


In the case of the Tastes of the Danforth, he'd had too much to drink.

In the case of the alleged crack smoking incident, he says he didn't do it.

Why do you expect him to admit to something when he says he didn't do it?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> In the case of the Tastes of the Danforth, he'd had too much to drink.
> 
> In the case of the alleged crack smoking incident, he says he didn't do it.
> 
> Why do you expect him to admit to something when he says he didn't do it?


I wasn't talking about the crack incident. 

I was thinking back to that time he started screaming obscenities at that couple at the Leafs game, first denied he was ever at the game, then later admitted it happened... or the time he was denied being charged with a DUI in Florida, then admitted it but denied the marijuana possession, then admitted it....


----------



## kps

I love Ford because he drives so many of you lefties apesh•t.🍻

If I saw him at the Danforth I'd offer to buy him a third beer and a souvlaki. 🍺🍡...😇


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I wasn't talking about the crack incident.
> 
> I was thinking back to that time he started screaming obscenities at that couple at the Leafs game, first denied he was ever at the game, then later admitted it happened... or the time he was denied being charged with a DUI in Florida, then admitted it but denied the marijuana possession, then admitted it....


He's certainly had a long history of denying things that later were found to be true. 

And he said he 'had a couple beers'. There's no way, he had a couple beers. Not even a couple more... beers. If you watch that video, he was -wasted- drunk.

I really don't care much what he does on his own time, but walking around in public apparently around one of Toronto's big events like taste of the danforth, well, not only do I think that's highly inappropriate for the Toronto mayor, but once again, he still lied. No way that was a couple beers, and the video is proof.

Not to mention, that anyone who lives near that corner is well aware of the long time crack house right by the beer store. I first found out about it from a cop who told me about it, they've known about for years. Now I don't know if that's his intention that night, maybe not. But you'd think after all the controversy, he'd perhaps be a bit smarter.

I think we're going to continue to be entertained, and we'll find plenty more to be embarrassed about. Glad I didn't vote for the guy...


----------



## eMacMan

To be blunt I can handle a couple of beers a whole lot better than that and I have less than half the body mass of Hizawner.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> I love Ford because he drives so many of you lefties apesh•t.🍻
> 
> If I saw him at the Danforth I'd offer to buy him a third beer and a souvlaki. 🍺🍡...😇
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


did you see the video? If you got him another beer you'd need a stretcher. It likely would have been beer number 15... :lmao:


----------



## mrjimmy

Something old, something new...

Convicted drug dealer burst into Toronto mayor's home demanding money | Ontario | News | Ottawa Sun

Rob Ford sought meeting with inmate in after-hours jail visit - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Something old, something new...
> 
> Convicted drug dealer burst into Toronto mayor's home demanding money | Ontario | News | Ottawa Sun
> 
> Rob Ford sought meeting with inmate in after-hours jail visit - The Globe and Mail


But apparently, whether old or new, neither newspaper knows what to make of their respective stories...


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> did you see the video? If you got him another beer you'd need a stretcher. It likely would have been beer number 15... :lmao:


i think Tim Horton's need to pay him for the free advertising.. of him wondering around and taking public pictures with a large cup in hand LOL..

he did say few.. few as in a case or few in 3 bottles. so technically he is not lying. 

I really do think the news is taking it too far.. what if he went to pride and got drunk? would they make stink about that? it doesnt matter that he went and got slightly blitzed.. 
He went to support a Toronto event.. 
damned if you do or damned if you dont.. 

Like Mel Lastman was any more pleasant, screaming at the top of his lungs and his kleptomaniac wife. LOL .


----------



## Sonal

I actually like Mayor Mel. He did a lot of good for us in North York--pre-amalgamation, we had better city services and low taxes.

More importantly, Mel knew how to compromise and understood the importance of working with his opponents to reach consensus and get things done.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> More importantly, Mel knew how to compromise and understood the importance of working with his opponents to reach consensus and get things done.


Exactly why too much money was spent.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I actually like Mayor Mel. He did a lot of good for us in North York--pre-amalgamation, we had better city services and low taxes.
> 
> More importantly, Mel knew how to compromise and understood the importance of working with his opponents to reach consensus and get things done.


Ha! I did say Ford would make mayor Mel look really good, and you're right. For all the gaffes and things we like to joke about, he was a better mayor because if the reasons you cited.


----------



## mrjimmy

The plot, not the gravy, thickens...

Police probe friends of Rob Ford who sought crack video | Toronto Star

You are the company you keep.


----------



## Sonal

I read the story last night.

The Mayor's insistance that the video doesn't exist is increasingly less credulous.... well, that is, if one believed that in the first place.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I read the story last night.


_The Star_'s reporting is becoming increasingly screwy:



> “Where are the guys who made the video, Fab,” Lisi said, according to a witness who was present. “You know where they are.”
> 
> Fabio Basso, a quiet man, was nervous. “They’re gone. Out of town. Gone to Windsor,” said Basso. _The Star does not know what Lisi did with that information._


That last sentence is a corker. What information? The alleged information overheard by the "witness who was present"? Why even include that sentence?



Sonal said:


> The Mayor's insistance that the video doesn't exist is increasingly less credulous.... well, that is, if one believed that in the first place.


if there were people making fake videos, the Mayor needed to research the reason behind it. Good on him for taking on the expense himself using a private investigator, instead of calling the police!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> if there were people making fake videos, the Mayor needed to research the reason behind it. Good on him for taking on the expense himself using a private investigator, instead of calling the police!


And by saving money by using friends instead of an actual PI! And those friends who also save money by living in their mother's basements! Oh, the fiscal responsibility!


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> And by saving money by using friends instead of an actual PI! And those friends who also save money by living in their mother's basements! Oh, the fiscal responsibility!


Breaking good!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Breaking good!


Ed Keenan (I think) compared it to the Sopranos, except everyone lives in their mother's basement..... except for the Mayor.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

So is he hosting his annual BBQ this year?

Will Hudak or Harper show this year?

Fair weather friends. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## groovetube

Sometimes a Ford notion | The Grid TO



> At another point in the show, he said, “For the first time ever, in the history of Toronto, we have balanced the books.” He said it twice.* In truth, Toronto has balanced its books in every single year of its history—it is forbidden by law to run an operating deficit.*


Ford nation. :lmao:


----------



## Dr.G.

Hulk Hogan loses arm-wrestling match to Toronto mayor Rob Ford | Tampa Bay Times and tbt*

Next, the Toronto Star will say that Mayor Ford is on steroids.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford claims Left wants him ‘off campaign trail’ as council votes to appoint Holyday’s replacement | National Post

Actually, the "left" didn't see the point in spending 225,000 dollars of taxpayer money for Rob Ford to grandstand and campaign before he's actually allowed to.


----------



## Lawrence

Now that Mayor Rob Ford was alleged to have smoked crack as was captured on an alleged video.(Which allegedly can't be found)
Mayor Rob Ford now admits to smoking "a lot of pot in the past" on camera,
I guess that makes him the official "Crackpot" Mayor of Toronto

Who'd have thunk it?


----------



## Dr.G.

Lawrence said:


> Now that Mayor Rob Ford was alleged to have smoked crack as was captured on an alleged video.(Which allegedly can't be found)
> Mayor Rob Ford now admits to smoking "a lot of pot in the past" on camera,
> I guess that makes him the official "Crackpot" Mayor of Toronto
> 
> Who'd have thunk it?


He might be thinking about making a run for the leadership of the Liberal Party should Justin Trudeau crash and burn. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

I guess Trudeau is a bit of a role model for him.


----------



## SINC

Lawrence said:


> Now that Mayor Rob Ford was alleged to have smoked crack as was captured on an alleged video.(Which allegedly can't be found)
> Mayor Rob Ford now admits to smoking "a lot of pot in the past" on camera,
> I guess that makes him the official "Crackpot" Mayor of Toronto
> 
> Who'd have thunk it?


It makes him an honest man. Stupid to admit to being a user, but honest.


----------



## groovetube

it's too bad he hasn't been very honest about a lot of other things as mayor.


----------



## JAMG

It is so cute that people still think politicians should be honest....


----------



## i-rui

> When Ford was asked Thursday if he was confident the federal government will contribute, he suggested that the plan was still on track – although his choice of words may not have been ideal.
> 
> “*Things are unravelling like they should*, that’s what the taxpayers want,” he said.


lol

what a quote!


----------



## groovetube

JAMG said:


> It is so cute that people still think politicians should be honest....


with the big hooferah trumpets blaring and cymbals clanging of openness honesty and transparency, I think a lot of people fell for that song and dance.



i-rui said:


> lol
> 
> what a quote!


nice one!


----------



## mrjimmy

Rob Ford says he

I have the feeling that even if Ford admitted to using crack, it wouldn't matter to his 'base'.

This level of arrogance and contempt for the voter is interesting to say the least. It's good insight into the mentality (or lack of) of blind followers.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Rob Ford says he
> 
> I have the feeling that even if Ford admitted to using crack, it wouldn't matter to his 'base'.
> 
> This level of arrogance and contempt for the voter is interesting to say the least. It's good insight into the mentality (or lack of) of blind followers.


Marcus Gee is at it again. The increase in debt is the result of massive TTC purchases for contracts signed by David Miller.


----------



## groovetube

Scarborough subway extension is getting $660M from Ottawa: Jim Flaherty | National Post

Elected Ford because you thought he wouldn't raise property taxes for his pet projects or buying votes somewhere not in your area?

ha ha ha. And you just know this subway is gonna cost far more than what they project. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Mammoliti, Shiner get rent deals from Toronto developers - Toronto - CBC News

More from the 'rat pack'.


----------



## CubaMark

_Looks like there's still lots of life in the Rob Ford saga after all..._

*Mayor Rob Ford's friend Sandro Lisi, who sought video, one of two arrested in Etobicoke*



> At least two people were arrested shortly before 8 p.m. Tuesday in an Etobicoke raid that swept up Sandro Lisi, a man who was investigated for his attempts to retrieve a video that appears to show Mayor Rob Ford smoking crack cocaine.





> The two men were identified Wednesday morning in a Toronto police statement released on behalf of homicide squad Det. Sgt. Gary Giroux, who has been leading a police investigation into attempts by Ford associates to get the video.
> 
> Lisi, 35, of Toronto is charged with marijuana trafficking, possession of the proceeds of crime, possession of marijuana and conspiracy to commit an indictable offence.





> Councillor Gary Crawford, .... said he doesn’t know much about Lisi’s relationship but he said he doesn’t think the arrest will “impact anything at all down in Austin,” and he said Lisi was “just a part-time driver, as I understand.”
> 
> “The guy was just driving him around,” he said early Wednesday. “So, I mean, if that’s all he was doing, that’s fine. But we’ll have to see what these charges are, what the extent of it is.”





> Lisi was never a member of Ford's official staff and was never paid by the city.





> Lisi has a lengthy record of interaction with police including convictions for threatening and assaulting women. He has acted as an occasional driver and security guard for the mayor, showing up the morning the crack video scandal broke and shadowing the mayor as reporters sought comment.
> 
> He also drove the mayor to and from the Garrison Ball, an event where Ford was asked to leave because he appeared impaired.


(TorontoStar also see this expletive-laden report from BoingBoing)


----------



## groovetube

Oh there's plenty yet to come out of this.

It's like watching a slo mo car crash. Everyone except rob ford kinda knows the bottom is coming.


----------



## Macfury

Folks, this is clutching at straws. CM's list of aspersions is a sad collection of stuff, that looks no better collected than when presented apart. Good ol' Rob Ford is going to keep on chugging along through the rest of his term no matter how much it angers you.


----------



## CubaMark

"...angers you..." ? No, you have it all wrong. I could give a rat's ass. But I do find it highly entertaining.

And it's very telling that despite a number of ongoing police investigations, you characterize it as "clutching at straws".

That says quite a bit... about you.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> "...angers you..." ? No, you have it all wrong. I could give a rat's ass. But I do find it highly entertaining.
> 
> And it's very telling that despite a number of ongoing police investigations, you characterize it as "clutching at straws".
> 
> That says quite a bit... about you.


You put all of that stuff together and... you still got nothing. Mayor Ford has a certain wiliness that is serving him well.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> "...angers you..." ? No, you have it all wrong. I could give a rat's ass. But I do find it highly entertaining.
> 
> And it's very telling that despite a number of ongoing police investigations, you characterize it as "clutching at straws".
> 
> That says quite a bit... about you.


Oh we're angry! :lmao:

At this point I don't know that he can do a whole more more damage than he has, at this point you're absolutely right, the entertainment factor of watching the 'honest fiscally responsible' train wreck embarrass his supporters is more than I can hope for!

Thing should get a lot more interesting as things unravel.


----------



## Macfury

To paraphrase:


> Mr. Ford... he's the devil. You know, he is... he is smarter than you, he is luckier than you. Whatever... whatever you think is supposed to happen... I'm telling you, the exact reverse opposite of that is gonna happen, okay?


----------



## groovetube

Why is a senior cop involved in arrest of Ford friend on simple drug charges?: DiManno | Toronto Star

Indeed, a good question.

One line in the article, what's the common denominator in all this? Ford.

Funny that.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford, asked if he

Wow. What a total gong show.



> “I support the police investigation. I support the police…* I just hope the police aren’t working hand-in-hand with the Toronto Star*,” he told reporters at City Hall, noting if police leaked the Project Brazen 2 document to the media, “they would be breaking the law.”


:lmao:

D'aaaaaaaaaaaaaaar K louie.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford recruited man with history of violent crime to coach high school football - The Globe and Mail

Ford vouching for criminals to be in our schools.

Ford nation must be proud!


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> Rob Ford recruited man with history of violent crime to coach high school football - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Ford vouching for criminals to be in our schools.
> 
> Ford nation must be proud!


When I was working for a smaller than TO city school board, a fingerprint check through the local police service was part of the deal. This even though my job related contact with kids was almost nil.

I gather TO is too big to bother with this sort of thing. If the TO CSB does require fingerprinting the journalist needed to mention that along with how the scumball managed to get around the requirement. Publish the dodge and slow as the typical administration might be, the dodge will get plugged.


----------



## Macfury

Ford is certainly brazen and wily--and I think it will carry him safely through the end of his term.


----------



## groovetube

eMacMan said:


> When I was working for a smaller than TO city school board, a fingerprint check through the local police service was part of the deal. This even though my job related contact with kids was almost nil.
> 
> I gather TO is too big to bother with this sort of thing. If the TO CSB does require fingerprinting the journalist needed to mention that along with how the scumball managed to get around the requirement. Publish the dodge and slow as the typical administration might be, the dodge will get plugged.


Given the importance of keeping scumbags away from the kids in the school, it's hard to believe how anyone, certainly not the mayor, would bring in and vouch for this kind of person into our schools!

Whether or not you dislike, or like his policies in toronto government, this is a whole other major issue, if you support that sort of behaviour, then you're supporting allowing scumbags into our schools?

Man. It's amazing what ford supporters will overlook simply because they saved 60 bucks on their vehicle registration fees :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I gather TO is too big to bother with this sort of thing. If the TO CSB does require fingerprinting the journalist needed to mention that along with how the scumball managed to get around the requirement. Publish the dodge and slow as the typical administration might be, the dodge will get plugged.


Read the article. The Catholic school board misspelled the guy's name when they submitted it to police for a background check.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Read the article. The Catholic school board misspelled the guy's name when they submitted it to police for a background check.


In 2012, yes. 

In 2011, they dismissed him before the check was complete (he was brought back in 2012 at the request of the Mayor) although whether everything would turn up is debatable since he apparently uses a number of pseudonyms and not all of them are linked.

What happened prior to 2011 is a mystery.


----------



## Lawrence

*"Robbiecalls"*

Now it's time for a "Robbiecall"
It just keeps getting more and more messed up. When is it going to end?


----------



## groovetube

Dare to disagree? They will steamroller you. Ford nation will come for you!

Here's another little gem:

Downtown Toronto has ‘enough subways already,’ Mayor Rob Ford says | National Post

Clearly someone's never tried taking subways to work in the morning! Just wait another 10 years....


----------



## Lawrence

Tuesday will be an interesting day,
We'll see if the king bully gets shamed in public.


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Tuesday will be an interesting day,
> We'll see if the king bully gets shamed in public.


Who is the king bully supposed to be?


----------



## Lawrence

Macfury said:


> Who is the king bully supposed to be?


Love it, Ford says it was his brother Doug's idea.

Full-Width Video Player (570x321)


----------



## Macfury

Lawrence said:


> Love it, Ford says it was his brother Doug's idea.


Man, gotta admire that chutzpah!


----------



## groovetube

Lawrence said:


> Love it, Ford says it was his brother Doug's idea.
> 
> Full-Width Video Player (570x321)


while the ford nation is busy hottin and clapping their hands one of the little mentioned items and one which the Fords failed to mention was that the reason that counsellor voted against the subway wasn't so much that he was against the subway, he didn't support the tax increase coming to pay for it. How ironic is it, to see such fiscally responsible fist pumpers trash talk someone against a tax increase??? :clap:

Dig deep people. This is just the beginning of paying for Ford's little toy toys.


----------



## groovetube

hah! Nice!



> “All I want to do is to make sure people stand up and say ‘I’m proud of how I voted.’ I wish someone would come out and advertise my voting record to the entire city. I can justify it, I can tell you why I voted on the issues the way I did.”
> 
> Rob Ford, your wish is granted.
> 
> Of the 60 council votes deemed significant by Metro‘s Matt Elliott, the mayor has lost 28 of them. For context, in seven years, David Miller lost one. So Rob Ford is not that good at winning votes. Here’s a small selection of votes worth informing people about:
> 
> The mayor has voted: against his own budget, against funding the student nutrition program with investment earnings, to cut funding to the Tenant Defence Fund, against a review to make the budget process more transparent, against taking the end of the school year into consideration when moving TCHC residents whose homes are being sold, to implement service reductions on 56 bus routes and 6 streetcar lines, to increase the crowding limit on buses, to charge charities and churches for waste collection, against community grants for youth outreach workers (after the vote, Ford ran from a reporter who asked him about it), against provincially funded public-health nurses, to reject provincial grants to help preschoolers who stutter, against allowing people with disabilities to speak to council committees by video conference, and to relieve himself of responsibility for reimbursing lobbyists who donated $3,150 to his football foundation, if you remember that one.
> 
> That’s a long robocall.


The Rob and Doug Ford Radio Recap: RoboFord | politics | Torontoist


----------



## groovetube

Toronto needs a mayor: will this be a very bad week for Rob Ford? | Warren Kinsella

If anything, it will just be another amusing, and sad week in Toronto.

I suspect even some of his supporters know, it's really just a matter of time.


----------



## groovetube

Rob and Doug Ford drug-allegation press complaints rejected - Toronto - CBC News

well they can't control everything.


----------



## i-rui

Not in service | The Grid TO

good article on the subway mess.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Not in service | The Grid TO
> 
> good article on the subway mess.


I support any subway expansion funded entirely by riders. No other.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I support any subway expansion funded entirely by riders. No other.


well, mayor ford's plan will have you (and me!) paying more than the other options on the table.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> well, mayor ford's plan will have you (and me!) paying more than the other options on the table.


you just have to admire Ford's chutzpah! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Now while people are admiring that, they can enjoying paying for his billions of dollars boondoggle for many many years to come! :clap:


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> well, mayor ford's plan will have you (and me!) paying more than the other options on the table.


Mayor Ford's tax increase remains within the bounds of inflation as promised ...so far.

At this point, I'm still relieved that _Transit City_ has met its maker.


----------



## groovetube

What Scarborough’s subway means for taxpayers: James | Toronto Star
This spells things out nicely. That subway surtax will sit on top of regular tax increases. For the next 30 years. And that only if costs stay as projected (yeah right!! ) and it appears ford will have blown our brains out on this subway extention.

This, after we were promised tax increases in line with inflation (1.1% currently) and that subways won't cost us a dime.

It just makes you laugh. This was too easy to predict.

Watch the usuals shriek in hysteria when after all the prov/fed monies are blown out and in a few years down the road when the downtown transit crisis blows a gasket, when they have to slap bigger increases on top to cover that as well.

Somehow, it's hard to imagine anyone fiscally conservative would take this road over transit city which was fully funded and do a lot to ease transit problems in lots of areas in the city.


----------



## groovetube

After reading the news about Ford's standing up for convicted murderers, and guys charged with various things such as assault and drug trafficking, I had to chuckle when I recalled how some conservative leaning posters always loved to joke how left leaning posters would join "hug-a-thug" programs.

Well. Let me just have a wee chuckle here.


----------



## groovetube

Mayor Ford scrum on new aquarium opening | CityNews

LOL the guy looks fried.


----------



## groovetube

yfrog Fullsize - http://twitter.yfrog.com/j2y8vuqlj

Apparently tomorrows star, looks like things will continue to get more uncomfortable for ford. So ford was the target of the investigation, and his busses are getting popped. That can't make for good times all round, and you have to wonder when a few of them start talking.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Sounds like the police have THE video!

So long Ford!


----------



## CubaMark

*Rob Ford video scandal: Police have the video that appears to show mayor smoking crack, Blair says*

Toronto Police have recovered the video that appears to show Mayor Rob Ford smoking crack cocaine, Toronto police Chief Bill Blair said Thursday.

Blair said at a press conference, “The video files depict images that are consistent with what has previously been reported” in the media.

Ford has long denied the video existed.

* * *​
The details of an extensive police investigation into Ford’s drug activities come six months after two Toronto Star reporters saw a video showing the mayor, obviously impaired, smoking what appears to be crack cocaine and making homophobic and racist slurs.

In a heavily censored portion of the document, police said that the day after the world learned news of the video that appeared to show Ford smoking crack cocaine, top homicide detective Sgt. Gary Giroux was assigned to “investigate the existence of a cellular phone containing a video of Ford smoking crack cocaine.”​
(TorontoStar)

*Rob Ford dealing with reporters outside his home this morning:
*




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Paddy

Yeah, it will be interesting to see if he actually resigns now or not. Can't quite fathom how after (a)being involved in illegal drug taking (b)being videoed partaking (c)lying about it repeatedly, he could stay in office, but stranger things have definitely happened.

Meanwhile, I'm sure the Ford Nation is switching into high gear with "the video is a fake" and "it's all a conspiracy...the police/Blair/media/(insert scapegoat of choice) hate Rob Ford."


----------



## i-rui

I doubt he resigns. they'll have to pull him out of city hall in cuffs.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Police surveillance shot of Ford urinating on a tree!


----------



## CubaMark

Skippy, your dishonesty demeans all of ehMac! Mayor Ford is most certainly not urinating on a tree. From the angle of this image, it is probably that his urine is indeed falling directly into the empty parking space. The car parked to his left, and the tree to his right, are providing cover.

How dare you misrepresent the facts here! Horrible person!


----------



## groovetube

remember when it was the lefties dream that this non existent video surfaces?

Those were good times


----------



## Macfury

Just 11 months to go. Hang in there, Rob!


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Skippy, your dishonesty demeans all of ehMac! Mayor Ford is most certainly not urinating on a tree. From the angle of this image, it is probably that his urine is indeed falling directly into the empty parking space. The car parked to his left, and the tree to his right, are providing cover.
> 
> How dare you misrepresent the facts here! Horrible person!


yes! Clearly no tree is being urinated on. 

Damn leftie conspiracy at work again!


----------



## groovetube

"I have no reason to resign"

I'll guess that Toronto voters will help him with that. This won't deter the hard core Ford supporters, but that's going to start dwindling now that everyone knows, he lied.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

![ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHzCoUZG2Js]DON CHERRY and ROB FORD "...for all the PINKOs out there, that ride bicycles..." - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

Don Cherry is correct ...................."what you see is what you get". "Let's check out the video" as DC would say.


----------



## groovetube

seems it wasn't just "left wing kooks' who stuffed their pipe! :lmao:

Pretty unfortunate choice of words for mr. cherry...


----------



## groovetube

Levy: Rob Ford has lost my trust | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

Man, when Sue ann levy takes a swipe at you, you've hit the bottom of the barrel!


----------



## Macfury

Why should Ford quit?



> Blair told reporters there’s nothing in the video that would allow police to “form reasonable grounds” to lay a criminal charge.


There have been enough overt potheads in office who are given a free pass because they meet a political litmus test. Ford hasn't even been accused of anything.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> There have been enough overt potheads in office who are given a free pass because they meet a political litmus test. Ford hasn't even been accused of anything.


I get the impression, MF, that you live a very clean and pious life, and therefore may not be entirely aware of the subtle differences between a "pothead" and a "crackhead", thus leading to your blasé attitude on the Ford case.

And to be clear, Ford has been _accused_ of being a crackhead (among other substance abuses). He simply has not yet been charged. And from the looks of the less-than-stellar investigation performed by Toronto Police, he may never be.


----------



## Sonal

Cllr Mike Del Grande puts it well:

Rob Ford should ‘step aside,’ former budget chief Mike Del Grande says | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> I get the impression, MF, that you live a very clean and pious life, and therefore may not be entirely aware of the subtle differences between a "pothead" and a "crackhead", thus leading to your blasé attitude on the Ford case.
> 
> And to be clear, Ford has been _accused_ of being a crackhead (among other substance abuses). He simply has not yet been charged. And from the looks of the less-than-stellar investigation performed by Toronto Police, he may never be.


Ford has been identified as someone who appears in a video with a pipe in his mouth. The police say there are no grounds for laying a charge.

Some potheads openly admit they smoke the stuff, but don't feel obliged to step aside.

I have supported the legalization of all of them so I don't care. However, for users of one substance to get high-handed with _suspected_ users of another is disingenuous at best.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Cllr Mike Del Grande puts it well:
> 
> Rob Ford should "step aside"; former budget chief Mike Del Grande says | Toronto Star


Hardly an eloquent plea from a mayoral candidate-in-waiting.


----------



## MacGuiver

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Police surveillance shot of Ford urinating on a tree!


Will they be laying charges for this or was it released just for our entertainment?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Hardly an eloquent plea from a mayoral candidate-in-waiting.


That's a little unfair. Del Grande has given no indication that he has any intention of running for mayor next year.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> That's a little unfair. Del Grande has given no indication that he has any intention of running for mayor next year.


No. This is my personal accusation.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> That's a little unfair. Del Grande has given no indication that he has any intention of running for mayor next year.


this whole thing has been full of people slinging irrelevant mud. First it was a toronto star conspiracy, then, as other media joined, it started to become a media conspiracy, but glowing words for the sun, now, the sun is calling for him to resign (even putting out a "nightmayor" issue for free...) then now the cops are all part of it. If any candidates dare say anything on this, it's because they want to be mayor!

So, in conclusion, no one is allowed to go after or give a negative opinion. If you do, well you're [insert some kind of crap here]. 

I've seen many ford nation commenters everywhere only focusing on the fact that if ford did smoke crack, well he's not being charged so everything is ok so shut up. What?

Obviously no one listened to chief Blair or understands any of what's happening here.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> Obviously no one listened to chief Blair or understands any of what's happening here.


Actually I listened to chief Blair and paid close attention. Conclusion: mayor Ford was caught in surveillance as part of another drug investigation focusing on his sometimes driver. The police and then the crown found no criminal wrongdoing on the mayor's part and no criminal charges will be laid. What's not to understand about that?


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Actually I listened to chief Blair and paid close attention. Conclusion: mayor Ford was caught in surveillance as part of another drug investigation focusing on his sometimes driver. The police and then the crown found no criminal wrongdoing on the mayor's part and no criminal charges will be laid. What's not to understand about that?


They don't read the reports, SINC--just the headlines from their favourite bloggers.


----------



## CubaMark

The willingness of those who purport to be tough-on-crime to set aside their convictions and give Ford a pass here... well... it's a disappointing testament to character.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Actually I listened to chief Blair and paid close attention. Conclusion: mayor Ford was caught in surveillance as part of another drug investigation focusing on his sometimes driver. The police and then the crown found no criminal wrongdoing on the mayor's part and no criminal charges will be laid. What's not to understand about that?


with all due respect SINC, how closely have you been following this whole sordid affair?

There's much in these investigations that led police to BOTH ford and his driver (if you listen to Blair's words) Then there is this:



> Ford’s friend, Alexandro “Sandro” Lisi, is now facing extortion charges in relation to attempts to retrieve the video, Toronto police Chief Bill Blair said Thursday.


Now why do you think Lisi is charged with extortion to get the video? There were people who got shot in the head, and let's not forget Ford and a few of his office guys were questioned by police not long after the video allegations surfaced.

There is much Blair didn't say regarding ford, but they were both being investigated, and it seems the ball got rolling with Lisi and his other partner getting charged with trafficking, and now we've progressed to the extortion charge. He didn't say much more on ford because I bet that is ongoing.

Why do you think Lisi committed extortion to get the ford video? For a personal trophy? 

To me, this is where the real story is developing, the actual content of the crack video isn't criminal, and is a bit of a distraction for ford supporters it seems.

Watch the news reports and Blairs words become a little clearer...


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> The willingness of those who purport to be tough-on-crime to set aside their convictions and give Ford a pass here... well... it's a disappointing testament to character.


that's the height of it all for me. The next time I hear anyone getting high and mighty about drugs it's definitely going to tai the credibility out of them right there.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> The willingness of those who purport to be tough-on-crime to set aside their convictions and give Ford a pass here... well... it's a disappointing testament to character.


The crime is____________?


----------



## eMacMan

CubaMark said:


> The willingness of those who purport to be tough-on-crime to set aside their convictions and give Ford a pass here... well... it's a disappointing testament to character.


Funny how Lieberal pol's smoking pot will somehow destroy the planet, but it's quite OK for Con pol's to smoke crack. Guess as long as the pol has corporate sponsors all is forgiven.


----------



## SINC

I'm no Ford supporter and if he did commit a crime, he should be punished, BUT will someone please show me where he committed a crime? Anyone?


----------



## CubaMark

You are correct, SINC. We only know for a fact that Mayor Ford committed the minor crime of urinating in public.

Beyond that, we have simply a big ol' mountain of circumstantial evidence that he is in some way involved in Toronto's drug scene. The surveillance has shown ample evidence of his association with members of drug gangs and crack dealers. Not a crime, but certainly not the behaviour one would expect of a big-city Canadian mayor.

As groovtube alludes above, there are additional serious questions about Ford's interactions with his (orders to?) his pal and the search for this videotape - particularly since it included violent acts. 

But - if this were a Centrist or Left-leaning mayor, we all know very well the heights to which many characters in here would be screaming for blood.... I daresay we're being pretty tame in our slagging of Ford so far...


----------



## groovetube

that's been the line of the ardent ford supporter. It's a distraction from what's really going on.

Clearly, if you heard Blair speak, they aren't charging him with a crime because he was seen smoking what appeared to be crack in a video, because as anyone can figure out, it isn't a crime to smoke it, it's a crime to possess it. So if a police officer appeared in front of ford during that video, he would have been charged with possession. I think this is all really easy to figure out.

That is out for the court of public opinion. Would you vote for a mayor who was seen smoking crack in a video that was confirmed by police? Also, he is still mayor, and won't step down. He'll run again if he doesn't end up charged in the end.

But again, if you are following all the items you would see, that this isn't just about lisi selling some pot out the back of a dry cleaners. You don't put a top detective on it for something like this. This is an ongoing thing.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why the cops are so interested in ford, and the crime of extortion to retrieve the video.


----------



## SINC

Well CM, most of what gt posts is hearsay and without any foundation in fact and is just his opinion. You can't convict anyone on that type of misinformation. I still say the guy should step down until the air clears if he was an honourable man, but that is just my opinion. Without any formal criminal charges against him, all the sabre rattling in the world cannot force him from office that I can see.


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Well CM, most of what gt posts is hearsay and without any foundation in fact and is just his opinion. You can't convict anyone on that type of misinformation. I still say the guy should step down until the air clears if he was an honourable man, but that is just my opinion. Without any formal criminal charges against him, all the sabre rattling in the world cannot force him from office that I can see.


there's no heresy there SINC. It's based purely on what chief blair said. There's no charges laid, and there may never be.

But when everyone knows ford was desperate to retrieve the video, and we all know he announced to his people that it's been found, then later, one of his best friends was charged with extortion to get the video, is it really that much of a stretch to think ford was involved???

That's all I am suggesting.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> But - if this were a Centrist or Left-leaning mayor, we all know very well the heights to which many characters in here would be screaming for blood.... I daresay we're being pretty tame in our slagging of Ford so far...


I would be hoping that mayor would leave for the good of the city, simply because he/she was left-leaning or centrist. 

As far as drugs, I would probably call them a few names and that would be that.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> You are correct, SINC. We only know for a fact that Mayor Ford committed the minor crime of urinating in public.
> 
> Beyond that, we have simply a big ol' mountain of circumstantial evidence that he is in some way involved in Toronto's drug scene. The surveillance has shown ample evidence of his association with members of drug gangs and crack dealers. Not a crime, but certainly not the behaviour one would expect of a big-city Canadian mayor.
> 
> As groovtube alludes above, there are additional serious questions about Ford's interactions with his (orders to?) his pal and the search for this videotape - particularly since it included violent acts.
> 
> But - if this were a Centrist or Left-leaning mayor, we all know very well the heights to which many characters in here would be screaming for blood.... I daresay we're being pretty tame in our slagging of Ford so far...


+1 Well put.


----------



## Sonal

As I understood it, Chief Blair is not charging Ford with a crime because the videos and photos do not meet the standard of evidence that would allow for conviction beyond a reasonable doubt.... that is, you'd need someone or something to corroborate that it's actually crack in that pipe, or cocaine in those bags of white powder that Lisi put in his car. If Lisi throws him under the bus, all of this could get very interesting, but that hasn't happened.

Also, I believe that Ford is not the target of this investigation--at worst, he's just a user, not a dealer, not a distributer, not a producer, etc. He got caught up in this owing to his relationship with Lisi. If there is a larger crime element at work here, which it seems like there is, then it's not unreasonable that the police are focusing on bigger fish. 

So at this stage, it's unlikely that Ford will get charged with anything, and frankly I have no problem with that. 

But it's also likely, as the investigation and legal proceedings against Lisi and perhaps his other associates continue, that Ford's involvement in all of this is going to continue to make the news. How can it not? 

For the good of the city, it would be great if he stepped down, so that the City does not continue to get dragged into all of these issues. We have bigger problems to deal with. Nothing can force him to do so, however, and that he chooses not to shows a certain disdain for the city. Not unexpected, IMO, but still not the right thing to do.


----------



## SINC

You nailed it Sonal, that is exactly my perception to date.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> As I understood it, Chief Blair is not charging Ford with a crime because the videos and photos do not meet the standard of evidence that would allow for conviction beyond a reasonable doubt.... that is, you'd need someone or something to corroborate that it's actually crack in that pipe, or cocaine in those bags of white powder that Lisi put in his car. If Lisi throws him under the bus, all of this could get very interesting, but that hasn't happened.
> 
> Also, I believe that Ford is not the target of this investigation--at worst, he's just a user, not a dealer, not a distributer, not a producer, etc. He got caught up in this owing to his relationship with Lisi. If there is a larger crime element at work here, which it seems like there is, then it's not unreasonable that the police are focusing on bigger fish.
> 
> So at this stage, it's unlikely that Ford will get charged with anything, and frankly I have no problem with that.
> 
> But it's also likely, as the investigation and legal proceedings against Lisi and perhaps his other associates continue, that Ford's involvement in all of this is going to continue to make the news. How can it not?
> 
> For the good of the city, it would be great if he stepped down, so that the City does not continue to get dragged into all of these issues. We have bigger problems to deal with. Nothing can force him to do so, however, and that he chooses not to shows a certain disdain for the city. Not unexpected, IMO, but still not the right thing to do.


What are your thoughts regarding the new(er) charges of extortion to retrieve the video? it's quite possible that ford will skate by without no charges, but to me, this new revelation seems even more disturbing than him smoking crack.

Is it possible, that lisi, completely acted alone in this extortion? I'm seeing quite a bit out there on the issue of the extortion and coverup of this video.

I think the debate on whether ford will be charged re: him smoking crack on video is pointless. Of course he won't.


----------



## WCraig

Another element that hasn't had much attention here is Ford's veracity. There is now growing evidence that he lied about the video and lied about smoking crack. Many politicians get in more trouble for the lies they told in a cover-up than for the initial issue!

Craig
(If only he had stuck to stonewalling...)


----------



## rondini

Maybe Marion Berry can step in as Temporary Mayor!


----------



## groovetube

WCraig said:


> Another element that hasn't had much attention here is Ford's veracity. There is now growing evidence that he lied about the video and lied about smoking crack. Many politicians get in more trouble for the lies they told in a cover-up than for the initial issue!
> 
> Craig
> (If only he had stuck to stonewalling...)


yes, we're seeing that federally now aren't we.

In any case, speculations aside, it'll be interesting to watch what happens over the remaining 11 months of rob ford!


----------



## Macfury

WCraig said:


> (If only he had stuck to stonewalling...)


This is his most prodigious talent. People need to learn to play to their strengths!


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> What are your thoughts regarding the new(er) charges of extortion to retrieve the video? it's quite possible that ford will skate by without no charges, but to me, this new revelation seems even more disturbing than him smoking crack.
> 
> Is it possible, that lisi, completely acted alone in this extortion? I'm seeing quite a bit out there on the issue of the extortion and coverup of this video.


I think it's possible that Lisi acted on his own... given how often they talk and meet, any investigation of Ford related to this video would likely have fallout on Lisi. He may very well have been protecting his own butt by trying to obtain and destroy the video. Do I think that was the case? Not sure yet... there are more players in this drama than Ford and Lisi, and I don't know who figures in where.

But regardless of who initiated the search and extortion related to the video, I find it difficult to believe that Lisi and Ford never talked about it. The investigation shows that the two of them talk very frequently and they met quite often. It seems unlikely that this never came up in conversation.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I think it's possible that Lisi acted on his own... given how often they talk and meet, any investigation of Ford related to this video would likely have fallout on Lisi. He may very well have been protecting his own butt by trying to obtain and destroy the video. Do I think that was the case? Not sure yet... there are more players in this drama than Ford and Lisi, and I don't know who figures in where.
> 
> But regardless of who initiated the search and extortion related to the video, I find it difficult to believe that Lisi and Ford never talked about it. The investigation shows that the two of them talk very frequently and they met quite often. It seems unlikely that this never came up in conversation.


yes.

The speculation I'm hearing is, that the pot dealing was the small fry of this investigation. It's the extortion, the violence (which is likely what got the cops in this in the first place not the pot...) The question is was ford smart enough to cover his tracks on the attempts to retrieve the video. Personally, I don't see what Lisi has to gain by extorting to get the video, unless there's a piece of the story I'm missing there.

One thing is for sure, there's quite a bit to this segment that isn't known, and the cops aren't saying. That's the impression I get from Blair's statements.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> But regardless of who initiated the search and extortion related to the video, I find it difficult to believe that Lisi and Ford never talked about it. The investigation shows that the two of them talk very frequently and they met quite often. It seems unlikely that this never came up in conversation.


Ford has a very sympathetic ear. He's clearly a mensch as can be demonstrated by his many media huddles. He probably tried to talk Lisci into going straight at that gas station!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *yes, we're seeing that federally now aren't we.*
> 
> In any case, speculations aside, it'll be interesting to watch what happens over the remaining 11 months of rob ford!


It could very well be, but we don't know for sure yet.

One thing I do wonder about though is why is the RCMP investigation taking so long?


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> It could very well be, but we don't know for sure yet.
> 
> One thing I do wonder about though is why is the RCMP investigation taking so long?


Yes, the men in red serge are dragging their feet here for sure!


----------



## Macfury

Mayor's popularity rises in face of crack video scandal | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun



> A new Forum Research poll shows the mayor’s approval rating post Chief Bill Blair’s confirmation of an alleged crack video gained five points from 39% to 44%.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Mayor's popularity rises in face of crack video scandal | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


The Star wrote about the same poll. It also says that 60% of those polled think he should resign. 

70% think he hasn't addressed the drug allegations adequately.

Mayor Rob Ford's approval rating ticks upward with news of crack video | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

it's an interesting poll. There's definitely cracks showing in 'Ford nation', (pardon the pun) and the next few weeks will be interesting to watch as more information gets released.

But it's tough to understand a voter who thinks the police cheif should resign for saying such bad things about rob ford


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

such a hilarious way to tell the story!


----------



## groovetube

well, sue ann levy is done with you, and now the might Blatch has your number Christie Blatchford: Rob Ford appears to have few friends, only stooges, cronies and goons | National Post


----------



## groovetube

> At best, those concerned about government spending must find a more stable, respectable, presentable and trustworthy representative. Aligning with the extremists — Ford and Ford Nation — will sink an already damaged brand.


 Time for conservatives to cut Ford Nation fanatics loose: James | Toronto Star

I can't say that I'd be upset to see that brand damaged for a very long time to come in Toronto. So yeah hey, have at'er ford nation :clap:


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> well, sue ann levy is done with you, and now the might Blatch has your number Christie Blatchford: Rob Ford appears to have few friends, only stooges, cronies and goons | National Post


Christine Blatchford & the National Post should write a public apology to the Star before piling onto Rob Ford.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Christine Blatchford & the National Post should write a public apology to the Star before piling onto Rob Ford.


Christie. Why should they apologize to The Star?


----------



## i-rui

because she previously penned an article attacking the Star's journalistic principles while she trumpeting the abilities of an incompetent mayor . It turns out their investigative reporting has been true and accurate. nice of her to get on the bandwagon after the fact.....

-----

so rumours are swirling that the 2nd video the police recovered is a sex tape. just when you think the story can't get any more sordid. Rob Ford finds a way....


----------



## Macfury

The _Star_'s journalistic principles _were_ way off base. And the mayor, while not being as effective as I hoped, has been far from incompetent. Most of his ridiculous behaviour occurred long after the _Star_ began to hound him.

Toronto routinely gets handed a rather sad slate of mayoral candidates. That I am still thankful that George Smitherman is not mayor speaks to that dearth of talent.

So of the people you see hoping to become mayor, who would you vote for?


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> because she previously penned an article attacking the Star's journalistic principles while she trumpeting the abilities of an incompetent mayor . It turns out their investigative reporting has been true and accurate. nice of her to get on the bandwagon after the fact.....
> 
> -----
> 
> so rumours are swirling that the 2nd video the police recovered is a sex tape. just when you think the story can't get any more sordid. Rob Ford finds a way....


I recall. I'm glad the star reported what they did, the reporters saw it with their own eyes so blatchford looks like a twit now. 

A sex tape? Pleeeeease don't release that.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> The _Star_'s journalistic principles _were_ way off base.


why and how? virtually everything they reported has now been reinforced by court documents and statements by the police.



Macfury said:


> Most of his ridiculous behaviour occurred long after the _Star_ began to hound him.


that's simply not true. there was a clear history of his poor behaviour long before he became mayor. his supporters simply choose not to acknowledge it.



Macfury said:


> So of the people you see hoping to become mayor, who would you vote for?


umm....anyone other than Ford who has thrown or reportedly about to throw their hat in the ring. THAT speaks to how incompetent and embarrassing he has been for Toronto.


----------



## groovetube

Ford whether or not he wins the next election or not, will eventually put Toronto in an anyone but ford election, and that really isn't a good thing potentially.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> why and how? virtually everything they reported has now been reinforced by court documents and statements by the police.


Not "virtually everything." And the Star reported on items using innuendo when it couldn't prove something. That some of these items later proved to be true doesn't excuse the sloppy reporting.




i-rui said:


> that's simply not true. there was a clear history of his poor behaviour long before he became mayor. his supporters simply choose not to acknowledge it.


Boorish, but not crazy.



i-rui said:


> umm....anyone other than Ford who has thrown or reportedly about to throw their hat in the ring. THAT speaks to how incompetent and embarrassing he has been for Toronto.


That doesn't tell me which person you would vote for.


----------



## WCraig

Macfury said:


> Not "virtually everything." And the Star reported on items using innuendo when it couldn't prove something. That some of these items later proved to be true doesn't excuse the sloppy reporting.
> 
> ...


There was no innuendo; reporters gave their accounts of viewing a video multiple times. In it, Rob Ford appeared to be smoking crack cocaine while uttering racist and homophobic slurs. I haven't seen any evidence that any portion of that is incorrect. 

The Ontario Press Council examined complaints and found The Star “followed appropriate journalistic guidelines.”

The personal blog of a senior guy at The Globe thinks the Star team did a good job:

Good journalism matters | teamoakville

Craig


----------



## groovetube

I think it's because it suffered from the 'reporting for the star' syndrome, if blatchford said that's ok though.

I'm glad to see people like sue Ann levy and blatchford finally come around to calling out ford, because a lot of ford nation reads them.


----------



## fjnmusic

From my limited point of view, I've really got to wonder how solid this "evidence" is. Why did it go missing for so long? Has it been tampered with? Apart from the freak out in his own driveway, which was probably justified, Ford has maintained a pretty confident demeanor anytime I've heard him speak. Either that's because he is innocent, which I don't totally buy either, although he may be innocent of the particular charges leveled at him (maybe it was meth or heroin, not crack cocaine, which would make his denial truthful), or he is in very deep denial damage-control mode. Either way, he deserves to be tried fairly, not crucified in the newspapers. Many great leaders have plenty of personal flaws, including narcotics use.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SINC

fjnmusic said:


> From my limited point of view, I've really got to wonder how solid this "evidence" is. Why did it go missing for so long? Has it been tampered with? Apart from the freak out in his own driveway, which was probably justified, Ford has maintained a pretty confident demeanor anytime I've heard him speak. Either that's because he is innocent, which I don't totally buy either, although he may be innocent of the particular charges leveled at him (maybe it was meth or heroin, not crack cocaine, which would make his denial truthful), or he is in very deep denial damage-control mode. Either way, he deserves to be tried fairly, not crucified in the newspapers. Many great leaders have plenty of personal flaws, including narcotics use.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This. :clap:


----------



## Macfury

WCraig said:


> There was no innuendo; reporters gave their accounts of viewing a video multiple times. In it, Rob Ford appeared to be smoking crack cocaine while uttering racist and homophobic slurs. I haven't seen any evidence that any portion of that is incorrect.
> 
> The Ontario Press Council examined complaints and found The Star “followed appropriate journalistic guidelines.”
> 
> The personal blog of a senior guy at The Globe thinks the Star team did a good job:
> 
> Good journalism matters | teamoakville
> 
> Craig


The Star has been after Ford since Day One, long before the video. I also don't accept the Press Council as the last word on what is ethical.


----------



## groovetube

fjnmusic said:


> From my limited point of view, I've really got to wonder how solid this "evidence" is. Why did it go missing for so long? Has it been tampered with? Apart from the freak out in his own driveway, which was probably justified, Ford has maintained a pretty confident demeanor anytime I've heard him speak. Either that's because he is innocent, which I don't totally buy either, although he may be innocent of the particular charges leveled at him (maybe it was meth or heroin, not crack cocaine, which would make his denial truthful), or he is in very deep denial damage-control mode. Either way, he deserves to be tried fairly, not crucified in the newspapers. Many great leaders have plenty of personal flaws, including narcotics use.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think the fact that the highly sophisticated forensic team with the toronto police would likely be better than most be able to determine the validity of this video is pretty convincing. They also are pretty knowledgable when it comes to drug paraphenlia and what they're used for.

I think the more disappointing thing here isn't as much that he smoked crack, (or meth or heroin whatever the hell, because no one is going to use a crack pipe for tobacco...) it's that he lied that the video existed, all the while it was known he was busy with his pals looking for it.

Unless he's charged with something, he can continue to be mayor. But his actions have brought this on himself. His out of control actions have led to all this attention, his playing the poor me card doesn't fly. Any politician who acts like this, is going to end up as tabloid fodder.don't like it? Don't be a politician and carry on with what is quite obviously, a pretty bad drug problem.

Outside of the political opinions, he really needs to get help. Leave of absence, a treatment program, his base will forgive him. If he had done this a while ago. He'd be fine.


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> From my limited point of view, I've really got to wonder how solid this "evidence" is. Why did it go missing for so long? Has it been tampered with? Apart from the freak out in his own driveway, which was probably justified, Ford has maintained a pretty confident demeanor anytime I've heard him speak. Either that's because he is innocent, which I don't totally buy either, although he may be innocent of the particular charges leveled at him (maybe it was meth or heroin, not crack cocaine, which would make his denial truthful), or he is in very deep denial damage-control mode. Either way, he deserves to be tried fairly, not crucified in the newspapers. Many great leaders have plenty of personal flaws, including narcotics use.
> Tapatalk


Absolutely agreed. If he feels he's innocent, leaving office would be inane.


----------



## groovetube

I should add, someone said a while ago that it's a good thing that that court case removing him from office didn't succeed in the end. Because the longer he rides out his term, the more trouble he finds himself in because if his own stupidity.

Turns out they're right. With that in mind, I hope he doesn't resign. Of course he should continue the remaining year!


----------



## groovetube

Ford to make announcement Sunday, deputy mayor says after private meeting | CP24.com

Who knows what it will be, but I doubt it's a resignation.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

groovetube said:


> Ford to make announcement Sunday, deputy mayor says after private meeting | CP24.com
> 
> Who knows what it will be, but I doubt it's a resignation.


He's found god. Will give up drugs. And stop beating up Renata.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He's found god. Will give up drugs. And stop beating up Renata.


Maybe a jimmy swaggart kybosh!


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> He's found god. Will give up drugs. And stop beating up Renata.


I am a little taken aback by people who usually would be so harsh even on someone who may have smoked pot many many years ago, but suddenly they'd defend a crack smoker and binging alcoholic while being a mayor of a major city!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> I am a little taken aback by people who usually would be so harsh even on someone who may have smoked pot many many years ago, but suddenly they'd defend a crack smoker and binging alcoholic while being a mayor of a major city!


Maybe the old adage is true that "politics makes strange bedfellows"???

For the record, I do not think that Ford will resign. Maybe he will go on a short vacation/leave of absence? We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

yeah there's little doubt he isn't resigning. He'd need to be either dragged, charged or worse before that happens.


----------



## mikemchugh

Warning - RANT!

I simply cannot believe that anyone with any intelligence would ever vote for Ford in the first place, far less continue to support him.

His is a liar, and he has a long history of lying - remember the sports event where he threw beer over someone and then claimed that he was never even there? That was YEARS ago, and not an isolated example.

He is, simply, incompetent. He does not have the skills (political, business, technical) to run the city - or, as we say in Scotland, "he couldn't run a menage" (kind of like "he couldn't run a Tupperware party").

He is not a team player - his entire time in public office clearly demonstrates this. He has no idea how to build consensus, he only knows how to bully. The entire subway debacle is typical - it was one of his major platform promises, and he has singularly failed to deliver on that promise - if we ever do get a decent system (and I, for one, would be more than happy to pay for that through a tax increase) it will be DESPITE him, not because of him. YEARS after being elected he does not have a single idea for financing any plan - like a baby, all he does is whine "I want a subway, I want a subway ... but I don't want to pay for it, someone else should"

Stupid is a word I don't like to use - many people are not academically "intelligent", but that doesn't mean that they are stupid. However, someone who simply refuses to learn, and who actually FLAUNTS their lack of knowledge, claiming that this shows that they are just an "ordinary guy", INFURIATES me. He IS stupid, and he IS ignorant - and he is proud of his ignorance.

Ford's biggest accomplishment - and I wish to hell I knew how he does this - has been to persuade his supporters that he is one of them - an ordinary joe. HE IS NOT - he is a multi-millionaire who has never had to worry about a thing in his life - he's never had to look for a job, he's never had to worry about paying rent, or about putting food on the table ... he has no idea how any of those things feel - unlike many of his supporters.

He makes a huge issue of the fact that he is always available, and that he always returns voter's calls, gets things done - like getting pot-holes fixed, for example. I DO NOT want my mayor to spend time getting pot-holes fixed, or returning the calls of every citizen who calls him - any councillor can do that - I want my mayor to RUN THE CITY - you know, the job he was elected to do!

Finally, Ford NEVER takes responsibility for any of his actions; it's always someone else's fault, and denial is his knee-jerk response. Once again, he is clearly exhibiting this behaviour right now, deflecting from the real issues by claiming that it's all part of the anti-Ford "vendetta" rather than actually ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS. Even the police chief is part of that vendetta now, apparently! His scum-bag lawyer is even in on it - asking for the video to rereleased when he knows damn well that that's not possible at this time, trying to make political capital out of it ... someone really should call him out on that!

Ford obviously has substance-abuse problems (food, alcohol, weed at least). What he does in his own time is his own business, as long as it stays at home ... but it doesn't. Ford has only himself to blame for the media fracas that dogs him (though the media scrum outside his house really is objectionable).

How did we get to a place where a person of such limited skills and capacities can become mayor of the largest city in the country? Like many people these days, I am very, very cynical about elected officials - most of them are simply career politicians, very few of them seem to be there to serve the public. However, voting for someone like Ford really is cutting off your nose to spite your face - I want MY mayor to be SMARTER than me, not stupider! 

Voting is the the most important responsibility we owe society; I wish people took it more seriously. 

Mike McHugh


----------



## groovetube

mikemchugh said:


> Warning - RANT!
> 
> I simply cannot believe that anyone with any intelligence would ever vote for Ford in the first place, far less continue to support him.
> 
> His is a liar, and he has a long history of lying - remember the sports event where he threw beer over someone and then claimed that he was never even there? That was YEARS ago, and not an isolated example.
> 
> He is, simply, incompetent. He does not have the skills (political, business, technical) to run the city - or, as we say in Scotland, "he couldn't run a menage" (kind of like "he couldn't run a Tupperware party").
> 
> He is not a team player - his entire time in public office clearly demonstrates this. He has no idea how to build consensus, he only knows how to bully. The entire subway debacle is typical - it was one of his major platform promises, and he has singularly failed to deliver on that promise - if we ever do get a decent system (and I, for one, would be more than happy to pay for that through a tax increase) it will be DESPITE him, not because of him. YEARS after being elected he does not have a single idea for financing any plan - like a baby, all he does is whine "I want a subway, I want a subway ... but I don't want to pay for it, someone else should"
> 
> Stupid is a word I don't like to use - many people are not academically "intelligent", but that doesn't mean that they are stupid. However, someone who simply refuses to learn, and who actually FLAUNTS their lack of knowledge, claiming that this shows that they are just an "ordinary guy", INFURIATES me. He IS stupid, and he IS ignorant - and he is proud of his ignorance.
> 
> Ford's biggest accomplishment - and I wish to hell I knew how he does this - has been to persuade his supporters that he is one of them - an ordinary joe. HE IS NOT - he is a multi-millionaire who has never had to worry about a thing in his life - he's never had to look for a job, he's never had to worry about paying rent, or about putting food on the table ... he has no idea how any of those things feel - unlike many of his supporters.
> 
> He makes a huge issue of the fact that he is always available, and that he always returns voter's calls, gets things done - like getting pot-holes fixed, for example. I DO NOT want my mayor to spend time getting pot-holes fixed, or returning the calls of every citizen who calls him - any councillor can do that - I want my mayor to RUN THE CITY - you know, the job he was elected to do!
> 
> Finally, Ford NEVER takes responsibility for any of his actions; it's always someone else's fault, and denial is his knee-jerk response. Once again, he is clearly exhibiting this behaviour right now, deflecting from the real issues by claiming that it's all part of the anti-Ford "vendetta" rather than actually ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS. Even the police chief is part of that vendetta now, apparently! His scum-bag lawyer is even in on it - asking for the video to rereleased when he knows damn well that that's not possible at this time, trying to make political capital out of it ... someone really should call him out on that!
> 
> Ford obviously has substance-abuse problems (food, alcohol, weed at least). What he does in his own time is his own business, as long as it stays at home ... but it doesn't. Ford has only himself to blame for the media fracas that dogs him (though the media scrum outside his house really is objectionable).
> 
> How did we get to a place where a person of such limited skills and capacities can become mayor of the largest city in the country? Like many people these days, I am very, very cynical about elected officials - most of them are simply career politicians, very few of them seem to be there to serve the public. However, voting for someone like Ford really is cutting off your nose to spite your face - I want MY mayor to be SMARTER than me, not stupider!
> 
> Voting is the the most important responsibility we owe society; I wish people took it more seriously.
> 
> Mike McHugh


:clap:

Much of this most people know. Which is astounding given that we continue to be stuck with him, and live under the threat of having to live with him for another 4 years.

Definitely a movie to made about this one!


----------



## WCraig

fjnmusic said:


> From my limited point of view, I've really got to wonder how solid this "evidence" is. Why did it go missing for so long? Has it been tampered with? Apart from the freak out in his own driveway, which was probably justified, Ford has maintained a pretty confident demeanor anytime I've heard him speak. Either that's because he is innocent, which I don't totally buy either, although he may be innocent of the particular charges leveled at him (maybe it was meth or heroin, not crack cocaine, which would make his denial truthful), or he is in very deep denial damage-control mode. Either way, he deserves to be tried fairly, not crucified in the newspapers. Many great leaders have plenty of personal flaws, including narcotics use.


I agree that your point of view is limited!  The Chief of Police has confirmed at an official press conference that they possess the video that the Toronto Star team viewed. (In fact, today's story suggests that there may be more than one video featuring Rob Ford.) I tend to believe that the police will have taken considerable steps to ensure that the video (videos?) are authentic. 

He may yet get his day in court! In the meantime, Shakespeare couldn't have penned a better farcical comedy of a tragedy! 

Craig


----------



## Macfury

mikemchugh said:


> Warning - RANT!
> 
> I simply cannot believe that anyone with any intelligence would ever vote for Ford in the first place, far less continue to support him.
> 
> His is a liar, and he has a long history of lying - remember the sports event where he threw beer over someone and then claimed that he was never even there? That was YEARS ago, and not an isolated example.
> 
> He is, simply, incompetent. He does not have the skills (political, business, technical) to run the city - or, as we say in Scotland, "he couldn't run a menage" (kind of like "he couldn't run a Tupperware party").
> 
> He is not a team player - his entire time in public office clearly demonstrates this. He has no idea how to build consensus, he only knows how to bully. The entire subway debacle is typical - it was one of his major platform promises, and he has singularly failed to deliver on that promise - if we ever do get a decent system (and I, for one, would be more than happy to pay for that through a tax increase) it will be DESPITE him, not because of him. YEARS after being elected he does not have a single idea for financing any plan - like a baby, all he does is whine "I want a subway, I want a subway ... but I don't want to pay for it, someone else should"
> 
> Stupid is a word I don't like to use - many people are not academically "intelligent", but that doesn't mean that they are stupid. However, someone who simply refuses to learn, and who actually FLAUNTS their lack of knowledge, claiming that this shows that they are just an "ordinary guy", INFURIATES me. He IS stupid, and he IS ignorant - and he is proud of his ignorance.
> 
> Ford's biggest accomplishment - and I wish to hell I knew how he does this - has been to persuade his supporters that he is one of them - an ordinary joe. HE IS NOT - he is a multi-millionaire who has never had to worry about a thing in his life - he's never had to look for a job, he's never had to worry about paying rent, or about putting food on the table ... he has no idea how any of those things feel - unlike many of his supporters.
> 
> He makes a huge issue of the fact that he is always available, and that he always returns voter's calls, gets things done - like getting pot-holes fixed, for example. I DO NOT want my mayor to spend time getting pot-holes fixed, or returning the calls of every citizen who calls him - any councillor can do that - I want my mayor to RUN THE CITY - you know, the job he was elected to do!
> 
> Finally, Ford NEVER takes responsibility for any of his actions; it's always someone else's fault, and denial is his knee-jerk response. Once again, he is clearly exhibiting this behaviour right now, deflecting from the real issues by claiming that it's all part of the anti-Ford "vendetta" rather than actually ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS. Even the police chief is part of that vendetta now, apparently! His scum-bag lawyer is even in on it - asking for the video to rereleased when he knows damn well that that's not possible at this time, trying to make political capital out of it ... someone really should call him out on that!
> 
> Ford obviously has substance-abuse problems (food, alcohol, weed at least). What he does in his own time is his own business, as long as it stays at home ... but it doesn't. Ford has only himself to blame for the media fracas that dogs him (though the media scrum outside his house really is objectionable).
> 
> How did we get to a place where a person of such limited skills and capacities can become mayor of the largest city in the country? Like many people these days, I am very, very cynical about elected officials - most of them are simply career politicians, very few of them seem to be there to serve the public. However, voting for someone like Ford really is cutting off your nose to spite your face - I want MY mayor to be SMARTER than me, not stupider!
> 
> Voting is the the most important responsibility we owe society; I wish people took it more seriously.
> 
> Mike McHugh


It's because George Smitherman was run against him. Can't you see that?


----------



## mikemchugh

Of course I see that; that's where the cutting off your nose part comes in ...


----------



## groovetube

mikemchugh said:


> Of course I see that; that's where the cutting off your nose part comes in ...


:lmao:

The fear and terror of smitherman was such that many were flocking to vote a seedy drug addict into office, one who simply whispered sweet libertarian nothings into their ears.

A child with a silver spoon in his mouth, never had to work a day in his life, who passes himself off as an average joe on top of this!


----------



## Macfury

mikemchugh said:


> Of course I see that; that's where the cutting off your nose part comes in ...


Smitherman was already known as a big-spending loser with a history of drug-abuse, and host of personal problems. Having p*i*s*sed away a billion dollars on eHealth, he then saddled Ontario with enough green energy to make bills jump by 50%. A stellar record indeed.

So given two losers with personal problem and a history of drug addictions, many chose the more fiscally conservative one.


----------



## groovetube

Listened to the radio show on 1010. yep. We got the "I have siiiiiiiiiinnned!!!!!!!!" lament. Please forgive meeeeeeeee! From rob ford.

Pathetic. The truth is, he lied.


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> yep. We got the "I have siiiiiiiiiinnned!!!!!!!!" lament. Please forgive meeeeeeeee!
> 
> Pathetic. The truth is, he lied.


Pot, kettle. Again...


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> Pot, kettle. Again...


I need to take a screenshot of that one!


----------



## Macfury

Ford apologized for nothing in particular.


----------



## FeXL

Macfury said:


> I need to take a screenshot of that one!


Unbelievable...


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> Ford apologized for nothing in particular.


Seemed more like the general apology Canadians sometimes use as a substitute for the more traditional; "Eh!"

Pretty pathetic, but then I never thought that being a souse should be a resume requirement for politicians.


----------



## groovetube

I thought it was kind of amusing to listen to the 81 year old tell rob ford his family deserves better, and that his brother is an enabler.

Bang on!


----------



## groovetube

I just recalled the whole flap about rob ford wanting to fire the worker at a community center for sleeping on his desk. No word in whether it was his break or any details, but for was ready to fire him anyway.

And after having lied repeatedly about his behavior and having to cop to it over and over, we're supposed to just, forgive and move on? Really?


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> And after having lied repeatedly about his behavior and having to cop to it over and over, we're supposed to just, forgive and move on? Really?


I believe the precedent was set on these very boards...


----------



## groovetube

on topic...

Rob Ford: Still more bombshells in police document | Toronto Star

This should make for an interesting few months as more and more information gets released.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford Lied to our Faces: He Should Resign Immediately | Leadnow.ca


here come the petitions.


----------



## Dr.G.

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admits 'mistakes,' won't resign - CNN.com

Mayor Ford made the CNN news. It's now time to move on to the next news story.

Maybe Mayor Ford will find a way to get the provincial government in ON to stop the cancellation of the Oakville gas plant, at an estimated cost of between $675 million and $815 million, along with the cost of cancelling plants in Oakville and Mississauga, which caused this price tag to rise to between $950 million and almost $1.1 billion -- thus becoming the great savior of the GTA and ON taxpayer. How many people can say that they saved the taxpayers of a city/province over a billion dollars? What a PR coup that would be for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## i-rui

Dr.G. said:


> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admits 'mistakes,' won't resign - CNN.com
> 
> Mayor Ford made the CNN news. It's now time to move on to the next news story.
> 
> Maybe Mayor Ford will find a way to get the provincial government in ON to stop the cancellation of the Oakville gas plant, at an estimated cost of between $675 million and $815 million, along with the cost of cancelling plants in Oakville and Mississauga, which caused this price tag to rise to between $950 million and almost $1.1 billion -- thus becoming the great savior of the GTA and ON taxpayer. How many people can say that they saved the taxpayers of a city/province over a billion dollars? What a PR coup that would be for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ford already claims to have saved Toronto over a billion dollars. Of course the numbers and facts don't back that up, but since when has the truth been something that comes out of Ford's mouth?


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> Ford already claims to have saved Toronto over a billion dollars. Of course the numbers and facts don't back that up, but since when has the truth been something that comes out of Ford's mouth?


I don't know about TO/GTA politics, but I have heard a bit about this problems with the natural gas plants costing so much for the ON government.


----------



## Dr.G.

"The acts of this life are the destiny of the next" ~ Proverb


----------



## Dr.G.

Where is Frank Sinatra now that Mayor Ford needs him??? "Regrets, I've had a few ............ "

My Way - YouTube


----------



## groovetube

‘Just don’t drink as much’: Rob Ford repeats he’ll ‘curb’ drinking as deputy mayor says public apology ‘enough’ | National Post

Classic addict in denial. He's going to be white knuckling for a little while until he (*cough*) cracks.

But didn't he just say recently that he has smoked a lot of a pot?


----------



## CubaMark

I feel so sorry for his wife and kids....


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

The Danforth makes the big time in the USA![ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CUBx5umMw0]Toronto Crack Mayor Rob Ford - Daily Show - November 4, 2013 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> The Danforth makes the big time in the USA!Toronto Crack Mayor Rob Ford - Daily Show - November 4, 2013 - YouTube


Oh man.


----------



## i-rui

OMG Ford finally admitted to smoking crack!

apparently the media didn't ask the proper question back in may.

lol


----------



## John Clay

Hopefully this motion to limit Ford's power passes.


----------



## John Clay

...and finally the truth reveals itself.

Rob Ford : 'Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine.' | Toronto Star


----------



## CubaMark

That is just surreal.... Ford is copping to being an alcoholic, basically, who "probably" did crack while in a "drunken stupor".

_...and that's supposed to make Torontonians feel better about their Mayor? _ :yikes:

Doug Ford calling on the Police Chief to resign.... 

Man, you couldn't make this stuff up. Maybe this needs to be posted in another thread...


----------



## i-rui

I'm wondering if he got word that Lisi was going to roll on him to cut a deal with the prosecution, and this is Ford's way of preparing for the storm that is going to come out of that.


----------



## Dr.G.

Well, now we can move on to more important items. He apologized, so case closed.

“But, no — do I? Am I an addict, no? Have I tried it? Um, probably in one of my drunken stupors, probably approximately about a year ago.”

The mayor suggested that he hadn’t been lying when reporters previously asked him about the tape.

“So, I wasn’t lying. You didn’t ask the correct questions,” Ford said.

“No I’m not an addict and no, I do not do drugs. I made mistakes in the past and all I can do is apologize, but it is what it is and I can’t change the past.”

"Yes, I've made mistakes, all I can do now is apologize and move on," the mayor said.

"I can apologize to my family, my friends, my colleagues and the people of this great city."

Mayor Rob Ford: 'Yes I have smoked crack cocaine' - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## CubaMark

Denial ain't a river in Egypt, folks. Holy frikkin' cow....

GT posted this above, but let me embed it for the enjoyment of all...





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Denial ain't a river in Egypt, folks. Holy frikkin' cow....
> 
> GT posted this above, but let me embed it for the enjoyment of all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Just seeing that stupid-looking puss of Stewart next to that that stupid-looking puss of Ford makes me not want to push "play" at all.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Just seeing that stupid-looking puss of Stewart next to that that stupid-looking puss of Ford makes me not want to push "play" at all.


Jeez.... _somebody_ had bran flakes instead of cheerios this morning....


----------



## groovetube

ha ha.

Well. This just gets more surreal as each day goes by.

The truth is, if you're getting so hammered like that that often to the point where you can't even remember smoking crack, simply 'curbing your drinking' simply isn't an option there. He has a serious problem, and that not only is not going away, but is unfortunately, is going to blow up in his face.

As I said before, beyond this whole I like rob ford/I hate rob ford stuff, the guy on a personal level really needs to get help. His previous staff have said so, and it has become more publicly known that this is the case.


----------



## Macfury

Hang in there, Rob--11 months to go!


----------



## groovetube

John Moore: Rob Ford never was

Hah! This pretty much nails it. It generally is always the -idea- of fiscal conservatism, but in reality, it never really pans out does it?


----------



## rondini

Hang in there Toronto, 11 months to go!


----------



## groovetube

soooo, what was the point of the non announcement?

I knew he wasn't stepping down, resignation or leave of absence.


----------



## Paddy

Sympathy vote - mining the sympathy vote for all it's worth, GT.

"I'm sorry"? We're supposed to just forget the lying, the drugs, the alcohol, the racist/homophobic comments, the consorting with criminals...? (and God only knows what else - there are now reports that his office manager hired a hacker to retrieve the video) Does anyone really think he has "nothing left to hide"? And, so, the circus continues. Ring #1 - Toronto mayor, Ring #2 - the Senate.


----------



## Dr.G.

Paddy said:


> Sympathy vote - mining the sympathy vote for all it's worth, GT.
> 
> "I'm sorry"? We're supposed to just forget the lying, the drugs, the alcohol, the racist/homophobic comments, the consorting with criminals...? (and God only knows what else - there are now reports that his office manager hired a hacker to retrieve the video) Does anyone really think he has "nothing left to hide"? And, so, the circus continues. Ring #1 - Toronto mayor, Ring #2 - the Senate.


Well, he said sorry three times as well as crying when he apologized. So, the show is over and now it is on to bigger and better things.

"For the sake of the taxpayers, we must get back to work immediately."


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> soooo, what was the point of the non announcement?
> 
> I knew he wasn't stepping down, resignation or leave of absence.


"For the sake of the taxpayers, we must get back to work immediately."


----------



## Oakbridge

Paddy said:


> Sympathy vote - mining the sympathy vote for all it's worth, GT.
> 
> "I'm sorry"? We're supposed to just forget the lying, the drugs, the alcohol, the racist/homophobic comments, the consorting with criminals...? (and God only knows what else - there are now reports that his office manager hired a hacker to retrieve the video) Does anyone really think he has "nothing left to hide"? And, so, the circus continues. Ring #1 - Toronto mayor, Ring #2 - the Senate.


Ford is on the phone right now:

"Mr. Prime Minister, is that what you needed? Can I get a signed copy of the book?"


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> "For the sake of the taxpayers, we must get back to work immediately."


I know that I'm better off as a result of Smitherman not being elected. I wish that he had offered a fiscally conservative platform instead--at least he admitted to his drug abuse early on.


----------



## Paddy

Dr.G. said:


> "For the sake of the taxpayers, we must get back to work immediately."


Except that this is far from over - there is more stuff in all those redacted pages, and Lisi's trial and the ongoing investigations. And that's just what we know about. And he hasn't addressed any of his underlying problems: lying (again and again), substance abuse (are we to believe that this has nothing whatsoever with his ability to do the job, just because he said "sorry" three times?), consorting with criminals, possible criminal activity...

It's living in the land of unicorns if you think this is just going away 'cuz Ford said "sorry" "I love my job", "I love Toronto" and got a little choked up sounding. (he wasn't crying on the video I saw))

He has betrayed our trust. He should resign. But he won't - because he's so damned arrogant that he thinks he'll just be forgiven if he apologizes! He'd have been out on his ear if he'd been working in the private sector; why on earth are we so tolerant of this sort of thing in our elected and appointed officials? Are we that jaded? Sad.


----------



## groovetube

Paddy said:


> Except that this is far from over - there is more stuff in all those redacted pages, and Lisi's trial and the ongoing investigations. And that's just what we know about. And he hasn't addressed any of his underlying problems: lying (again and again), substance abuse (are we to believe that this has nothing whatsoever with his ability to do the job, just because he said "sorry" three times?), consorting with criminals, possible criminal activity...
> 
> It's living in the land of unicorns if you think this is just going away 'cuz Ford said "sorry" "I love my job", "I love Toronto" and got a little choked up sounding. (he wasn't crying on the video I saw))
> 
> He has betrayed our trust. He should resign. But he won't - because he's so damned arrogant that he thinks he'll just be forgiven if he apologizes! He'd have been out on his ear if he'd been working in the private sector; why on earth are we so tolerant of this sort of thing in our elected and appointed officials? Are we that jaded? Sad.


yes it is indeed far from over.

The truth is Ford's respect for taxpayer's money has been a total flop. His remaining supporters are merely parroting a bunch of spin, but it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

I want a true fiscally conservative mayor that has a vision. Someone who can actually turn rhetoric and divisive politics to real action and executing a vision, without turning Toronto into a laughing stock on the world stage.


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> yes it is indeed far from over.
> 
> The truth is Ford's respect for taxpayer's money has been a total flop. His remaining supporters are merely parroting a bunch of spin, but it's mostly smoke and mirrors.
> 
> I want a true fiscally conservative mayor that has a vision. Someone who can actually turn rhetoric and divisive politics to real action and executing a vision, without turning Toronto into a laughing stock on the world stage.


Hey any publicity is good publicity. 'Specially soused of the border where much of the population has never even heard of TO, and Kansas is generally considered to be the host of the centre of the known universe.


----------



## Oakbridge

If memory serves me correctly, this is a typical behaviour from people with any form of addiction. Addicts will often do a 'cleansing' and bare their souls about something... usually when they get caught or are so close to getting caught there is no way out. They do it often knowing that there is something much much worse that they are hiding. I believe that their logic is that they believe if they admit to one bad thing, nobody will ever find that deep dark secret. They think that others will stop looking at them suspiciously because they've just admitted something that was horribly embarrassing and difficult to admit. (i.e. "they have to trust me now because I bared my soul")

I think that the phrase "Folks, I have nothing left to hide." will come back to haunt him.


----------



## groovetube

oh when they release the wiretaps that aren't redacted, that might be sooner than you think


----------



## groovetube

‘If they have to dry out in jail


----------



## eMacMan

groovetube said:


> ‘If they have to dry out in jail


My Lard! he has now admitted to using crack. Way past time to trot out that tough love Hizahner was referring to.


----------



## Dr.G.

eMacMan said:


> My Lard! he has now admitted to using crack. Way past time to trot out that tough love Hizahner was referring to.


Well, he admitted his guilt, and "confession is good for the soul". He said he was sorry three times. He cried in public. It can't get much worse from this point. 

So, if Mayor Ford comes out publically to say that he has "found religion", as well as promising to stop smoking crack, there is no way this story lasts until next week ................. and no way he loses the next election. We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

"Mayor Ford's a lot of fun to ridicule, but my guess is, not a lot of fun to eulogize."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCxrEfJyRfg

The thing is about hard drugs, sometimes when users white knuckle it for a period, but then go out on a real bender, it can have fatal results.


----------



## groovetube

wooooo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q_uLzEljo8


----------



## i-rui

> "I reflected on it last night, and talked to my family. I came forward and admitted it. That's all I can do. I mean, I'm not perfect. Being in politics, you're in the spotlight all the time. I made a mistake. I made a major mistake. I really regret it." -- Rob Ford.


does that sound familiar? it wasn't from yesterday. it was actually from 2006, when a drunk Ford harassed people at a Leaf game.

of course he first vehemently denied that it ever happened and said he wasn't even at the game.

Only when irrefutable evidence emerged did he eventually own up to his conduct.



> "Was it wrong? Absolutely it was wrong and I made a mistake," "You learn by your mistakes."
> 
> “I am not perfect. I have never claimed to be perfect. But I believe this is a city that needs strong leadership.” - Rob Ford


that wasn't from yesterday either. it was from 2010 when Ford finally admitted to a DUI and drug possession charge in Florida. Once again he initially flatly denied the accusation, and only admitted to it once it was clear there was clear evidence to show otherwise.

Pretty clear pattern of conduct here. It was clear before he got elected, but his supporters chose to ignore it. I find it shocking that anyone could still choose to ignore this after what he has said over the last few months, but many of "Ford Nation" continue to enable his behaviour.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

39 Breathtaking Photos of North America's Most Photogenic Mayor


----------



## i-rui

More video fun!

latest Taiwanese animation :





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.







-----


Rob Ford Crack Rap :





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> More video fun!


The Taiwanese animations are hilarious. The rap thing not so much--too easy to produce that stuff now and it's raised the bar.


----------



## Dr.G.

Now this sort of "tragedy" has hit us here in St. John's. 

St. John's, NL - Following weeks of speculation, St. John's Police Chief Jason Jinglestars held a press conference today where he confirmed the existence of a cell phone video taken a month ago, on which St. John's Mayor, Dennis O'Keefe, appears to be smoking Atlantic salmon. Mayor Dennis O'Keefe did the honorable thing and resigned his position, in that he is facing charges that could result in a $375,092.83 fine and/or seven years in prison.  :-( 

Salmon off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador are big, and there is a catch limit of five pounds each day for personal use.


----------



## groovetube

ah, someone ran a similar story that a west coast BC mayor was found to have smoked salmon.

This rampant drug use is spreading! We need a war...


----------



## John Clay

Rob Ford caught in video rant | Toronto Star

Well, that's very revealing. Time for him to step down.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> ah, someone ran a similar story that a west coast BC mayor was found to have smoked salmon.
> 
> This rampant drug use is spreading! We need a war...


"Make love, not war". Of course, since Atlantic salmon is the finest in the world, many countries are poaching our salmon.


----------



## Dr.G.

John Clay said:


> Rob Ford caught in video rant | Toronto Star
> 
> Well, that's very revealing. Time for him to step down.


Video: Former WWE wrestler Iron Sheik challenges Rob Ford at City Hall - The Globe and Mail

Just because someone challenged him to an arm wrestle ...................


----------



## groovetube

John Clay said:


> Rob Ford caught in video rant | Toronto Star
> 
> Well, that's very revealing. Time for him to step down.


Ford nation must be proud. (and I have no doubt they are...)


----------



## heavyall

groovetube said:


> Ford nation must be proud. (and I have no doubt they are...)


I don't think that anyone approves of the behaviour. However, I do think that the harder the left goes after him, the stronger his voter support is going to continue to grow. Unless another more conservative option challenges him, a lot of his supporters will vote Ford specifically because it drives the lefties to distraction.


----------



## Sonal

heavyall said:


> I don't think that anyone approves of the behaviour. However, I do think that the harder the left goes after him, the stronger his voter support is going to continue to grow. Unless another more conservative option challenges him, a lot of his supporters will vote Ford specifically because it drives the lefties to distraction.


It really depends on the kind of conservative. The anti-government conservatives, sure, they're with him still. The fiscal conservatives, not so much. (And yes, there is a lot of overlap between these groups.)

A friend predicts that if another strong conservative runs, the vote will get split between Ford and the other person, allowing Olivia Chow or Adam Vaughn or some such to win.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> It really depends on the kind of conservative. The anti-government conservatives, sure, they're with him still. The fiscal conservatives, not so much. (And yes, there is a lot of overlap between these groups.)
> 
> A friend predicts that if another strong conservative runs, the vote will get split between Ford and the other person, allowing Olivia Chow or Adam Vaughn or some such to win.


yes.

There is a base, that will support him pretty right through this entire thing. All that matters to them, is that they 'think' he's doing a good job, they buy his line of 'I'm watching your tax dollars', and he's their man. Nothing will change for them.

But a fairly significant number of people supported him because they simply didn't want Smitherman, and they may have had good reasons for making that choice. It made sense at the time. If another fiscally conservative candidate runs, they're going to take most of those votes from ford.


----------



## i-rui

The Tyee – Along with Ford, Canada's Political Leadership Hits Rock Bottom

article which i agree with for the most part. i'm sure the usual parties will agree and disagree, but it's worth a read IMO


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

I wonder if the f'kin f'k is talkin about Stephen F'in Harper eh?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

F F F F F F F F F F F F ! Eh? FFFFFFFFF


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

lot's of f's eh?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Who is he talking about in the video? Steve Harper or Adam Vaughn?


----------



## BigDL

Dr.G. said:


> Now this sort of "tragedy" has hit us here in St. John's.
> 
> St. John's, NL - Following weeks of speculation, St. John's Police Chief Jason Jinglestars held a press conference today where he confirmed the existence of a cell phone video taken a month ago, on which St. John's Mayor, Dennis O'Keefe, appears to be smoking Atlantic salmon. Mayor Dennis O'Keefe did the honorable thing and resigned his position, in that he is facing charges that could result in a $375,092.83 fine and/or seven years in prison.  :-(
> 
> Salmon off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador are big, and there is a catch limit of five pounds each day for personal use.


A recent video is making the rounds. The Mayor of Digby NS was videoed eating Digby Chicks. The Mayor remain remorseless and unapologetic. 



> Digby Chicks is a name used for smoked herring in Digby, Nova Scotia, because they once replaced chicken for Christmas dinner for impoverished early settlers.


Places to Eat | explore digby


----------



## Paddy

i-rui said:


> The Tyee – Along with Ford, Canada's Political Leadership Hits Rock Bottom
> 
> article which i agree with for the most part. i'm sure the usual parties will agree and disagree, but it's worth a read IMO


Great article - and what I've been thinking/saying about US politics for years, and it's now crept north of the border. 

It's not new - it's just become much more endemic. Susan Jacoby wrote a great article in the Washington Post in 2008: The Dumbing Of America - Washington Post

The continued lack of rational thought from the likes of Ford Nation is a perfect example. 

How many well-educated people do you know who (almost proudly) proclaim that they don't read - even the newspaper? If they bother at all, they get their "news" from the TV, which as we all know, specializes in depth-free 30 second sound bites. 

People are so cynical about politicians (they're all crooks, dontcha know?) that some seem to figure that electing "regular Joes" is somehow safer. So...we end up with opportunistic but not very clever "regular Joes", with no vision whatsoever, doing and saying really, really stupid things and sometimes, it would appear, criminal things. How else to explain the popularity of people like GW Bush, Sarah Palin...and now, our own Rob Ford?

I consider it a minor miracle that the US elected Obama, who was constantly derided for being an elitist, simply because he spoke in complete sentences using words with more than two syllables, and didn't make major gaffes every time he attempted to hold an unscripted press conference. (Not that I think he's done a great job, unfortunately...) 

I AM disgusted - but we've made politics into a dirty, back-stabbing business. Most people with any brains don't want to run - and I can't blame them.


----------



## kps

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> 39 Breathtaking Photos of North America's Most Photogenic Mayor


They missed one Skippy…


----------



## heavyall

Paddy said:


> How many well-educated people do you know who (almost proudly) proclaim that they don't read - even the newspaper? .


“If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed.”


----------



## Macfury

Paddy said:


> I consider it a minor miracle that the US elected Obama, who was constantly derided for being an elitist, simply because he spoke in complete sentences using words with more than two syllables, and didn't make major gaffes every time he attempted to hold an unscripted press conference.


That' not true at all. Obama has frequently started to drop "g"s so he can sound like an ordinary Joe. He's famous for stammering "uhhh" as he speaks. And whenever he
speaks unscripted (without a teleprompter) he becomes unintelligible.

I wish he WAS an elitist!



Paddy said:


> How many well-educated people do you know who (almost proudly) proclaim that they don't read - even the newspaper? .


Nobody I know has made a claim like this.


----------



## groovetube

Well his mom and sister were on TV defending him. Apparently, he doesn't really need help, save for his weight.

So now it becomes clear how rob ford got to this state. Someone who actually gives a crap about him personally needs to get through that dysfunctional family, and get him help before he has an early death.


----------



## i-rui

the 5th estate is doing a special on Ford tonight @ 9pm on cbc


----------



## CubaMark

(Bruce Mackinnon / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## i-rui

Ford Nation fail:

Billboard supporting Mayor Ford goes up in Etobicoke | 680News



> The sign went up on Queen Elizabeth Boulevard in Etobicoke reading: “We support Mayor Ford. Ford = Fiscal Responsibility.”
> 
> A closer look at the sign shows the word “responsibility” is actually misspelled.
> 
> It’s not clear who is behind the sign.
> 
> The City of Toronto is looking into the unauthorized use of its logo on the sign.


lol


----------



## Macfury

I mightl support Rob Ford taking a short leave of absence for rehab--provided there's no chance George Smitherman will take his place in the interim.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I mightl support Rob Ford taking a short leave of absence for rehab--provided there's no chance George Smitherman will take his place in the interim.


I doubt that Ford could see any real progress in anything under 6 months, locked down. He has a blimp sized problem, and a family that has done him a huge disservice by enabling/tolerating his behaviour.


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> I doubt that Ford could see any real progress in anything under 6 months, locked down. He has a blimp sized problem, and a family that has done him a huge disservice by enabling/tolerating his behaviour.


I want the mayor to do little or nothing for the city, so he needs to come back in a hurry and do nothing, instead of allowing his deputy to do something during a long leave of absence. It was when Mayor Miller became ambitious that I most fully felt the pain of municipal government.


----------



## Paddy

Macfury said:


> Nobody I know has made a claim like this.


You've honestly never run into anyone who says "I don't have time to read books" or "I've not read a book in years" or "I don't read the newspaper"? Most of my friends and family are avid readers - but every so often I run into someone who says something like this and I'm astonished. But they really DO exist - and they're NOT confined to the uneducated segment of society, either.

See: Reading Statistics | Statistic Brain

And then add that only 9% of Americans get their news from print these days, and I'm betting it's not all that different north of the border, and you have a boatload of people _not reading_. I know lots of people who don't get any newspapers (most of my neighbours, here in a pretty affluent area of Toronto). Some do read the paper online now, but a lot of them don't even do that; they watch TV news.


----------



## Macfury

Paddy said:


> You've honestly never run into anyone who says "I don't have time to read books" or "I've not read a book in years" or "I don't read the newspaper"? Most of my friends and family are avid readers - but every so often I run into someone who says something like this and I'm astonished.


Perhaps I've already killed everyone who said it to me!


----------



## groovetube

Dear Toronto: You're Being Trolled By Ford Nation | Reginald Braithwaite

Bang on.


----------



## Paddy

David Olive hits the nail on the head in today's Star:

Ford has betrayed those who continue to back him: Olive | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

Paddy said:


> David Olive hits the nail on the head in today's Star:
> 
> Ford has betrayed those who continue to back him: Olive | Toronto Star





> Three years in which progress has ground to a halt on making Toronto the most eco-smart community in the world. Three lost years in cutting the cost and boosting the quality of municipal health and child care. Three lost years in eradicating GTA traffic gridlock that ranks among the worst in the world.


I don't want Toronto to be the most eco-smart community in the world, I don't want it boosting municipal child care or building transit that isn't supported entirely by fares. To date, Ford's tax increases remain within inflation. The largest single expense so far: paying for subway trains which David Miller ordered. So, Olive is simply wrong. Ford is doing what I want, despite his dreadful demeanour.

The "progess" he craves is simply taking more money from one group and giving it to another.


----------



## groovetube

Paddy said:


> David Olive hits the nail on the head in today's Star:
> 
> Ford has betrayed those who continue to back him: Olive | Toronto Star


bang on. People simply don't realize the costly damage of this mayor, and it will dawn on them down the road when people awake to realize the huge spending increases, and not to mention the added property tax hit that will be there -on top- of the yearly hikes at the rate of inflation, for oh, 30 years. Let's also remember how these big boondoggle type things run, it'll cost far more than promised, and we'll be paying for it in the end.

As long as the one line slogans ring true in the 'folks' ears, it'll be good enough for them. And then when a real mayor who gets it takes office, they'll be bewildered when suddenly the cost of this mayor begins to be realized.


----------



## groovetube

Scarborough LRT cancellation costs mount | Toronto Star

Oh and here we go, the cancellation costs could mount to several hundred million dollars! And that's just an initial estimate.

Haven't we heard this story recently and seen plenty of outrage on this??


----------



## Paddy

Macfury said:


> I don't want Toronto to be the most eco-smart community in the world, I don't want it boosting municipal child care or building transit that isn't supported entirely by fares. To date, Ford's tax increases remain within inflation. The largest single expense so far: paying for subway trains which David Miller ordered. So, Olive is simply wrong. Ford is doing what I want, despite his dreadful demeanour.
> 
> The "progess" he craves is simply taking more money from one group and giving it to another.


Well, I'm glad Ford is doing what you want, MF, because he sure isn't doing what I want. The me-first Ford Nation is going to be paying through the nose for their fearless leader's actions. He's sure no fiscal conservative - he can't even do basic math, it seems. 

Scarborough LRT cancellation costs mount | Toronto Star


----------



## Dr.G.

"Rob Ford will face a "public flogging" in Toronto city council tomorrow, according to his brother, Coun. Doug Ford, as the embattled mayor again faces a call for him to take a leave of absence and apologize to the city." Wow!!! The most our mayor here in St.John's can experience is being censured. A public flogging???? When did TO adopt Sharia law???

Rob Ford facing 'public flogging,' says brother - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Macfury

Paddy said:


> Well, I'm glad Ford is doing what you want, MF, because he sure isn't doing what I want. The me-first Ford Nation is going to be paying through the nose for their fearless leader's actions. He's sure no fiscal conservative - he can't even do basic math, it seems.
> 
> Scarborough LRT cancellation costs mount | Toronto Star


I never agreed with the LRT plan to begin with. I count these cancellation costs toward Miller, who devised that SNAFU.


----------



## groovetube

Paddy said:


> Well, I'm glad Ford is doing what you want, MF, because he sure isn't doing what I want. The me-first Ford Nation is going to be paying through the nose for their fearless leader's actions. He's sure no fiscal conservative - he can't even do basic math, it seems.
> 
> Scarborough LRT cancellation costs mount | Toronto Star


It will, and will always continue to be someone else's fault. See how that works? It means you can screw up royally, and it's never your fault!

Ford cancelling the deal and incurring costs is not his fault. Even though, he cancelled it.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> It will, and will always continue to be someone else's fault. See how that works? It means you can screw up royally, and it's never your fault!


Wow, pot, meet kettle!


----------



## i-rui

awesome, the goading and trolling has migrated to the Rob Ford thread!

what other threads can be derailed?


----------



## groovetube

I just ignore it. It's just what they do.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha ha, sorry, this is just so funny.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford’s evil Twitter twin reveals his true identity | canada.com

I was aware of 80s doug ford twitter, which has been pretty funny, but I wasn't aware of this one.


----------



## SINC

Hmmm, maybe things are not so bad after all:

Hundreds line up to buy limited-edition Rob Ford bobblehead doll | CTV News

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford bobblehead becomes instant collector's item


----------



## i-rui

yes, because the best gauge for effective governance is how well a bobblehead sells!

it's actually sums up Rob Ford perfectly. In the shadow of various substance abuse confessions as well as ties to various criminal elements he goes headfirst in to a campaign marketing blitz to Ford Nation selling a bobblehead that resembles the truth about as much as what he claims his fiscal record is. 

And sadly they buy both.


----------



## mikemchugh

Macfury said:


> I don't want it ... building transit that isn't supported entirely by fares.


What an idiotic comment, and so typical of the short-sighted "thinking" that all that matters is how little money I can get away with giving the government and how much of it I can keep in my own pocket. NO transit system in the world is supported by fares ... transit should be a SERVICE! Why is that so difficult for people like you to understand?

And before you retort that only users should pay for transit, then by the same token only drivers should pay for roads, and they sure as hell do not.


----------



## groovetube

As far as I understand it, TTC has a pretty low subsidy vs fares compared to many other cities. Anyone have this data I can't recall where I saw this.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> yes, because the best gauge for effective governance is how well a bobblehead sells!
> 
> it's actually sums up Rob Ford perfectly. In the shadow of various substance abuse confessions as well as ties to various criminal elements he goes headfirst in to a campaign marketing blitz to Ford Nation selling a bobblehead that resembles the truth about as much as what he claims his fiscal record is.
> 
> And sadly they buy both.


In a city of this many millions, I don't think it's too difficult to scare up a few hundred from "ford nation" to line up for one. These may fetch some dollars on eBay given ford's sudden not so flattering notoriety. 

Hopefully some good comes of it in any case for the united way, because Toronto is taking a real beating to the rest of the world.


----------



## groovetube

From across the pond!
Toronto Mayor Rob Ford 'weathering the storm' - video - Channel 4 News


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## Macfury

mikemchugh said:


> What an idiotic comment, and so typical of the short-sighted "thinking" that all that matters is how little money I can get away with giving the government and how much of it I can keep in my own pocket. NO transit system in the world is supported by fares ... transit should be a SERVICE! Why is that so difficult for people like you to understand?


Transit should be a service because you say so and because you don't like paying the full price? Thankfully we're moving away from that model.



mikemchugh said:


> And before you retort that only users should pay for transit, then by the same token only drivers should pay for roads, and they sure as hell do not.


Yes, drivers should largely pay for roads. We are almost at the point where we can bill drivers directly. Next?


----------



## groovetube

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford's refusal to step aside 'not acceptable', 72% of respondents say in new poll | CTV News

ouch.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford's refusal to step aside 'not acceptable', 72% of respondents say in new poll | CTV News
> 
> ouch.


After the Bobble head and t-shirt sales, I can no longer accept him as mayor of Toronto. This guy need some serious help. In to the rehab with him, after, let him finish his term and after that, let us finish him. I just hope that his replacement won't be a tax and spend leftie.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> After the Bobble head and t-shirt sales, I can no longer accept him as mayor of Toronto. This guy need some serious help. In to the rehab with him, after, let him finish his term and after that, let us finish him. I just hope that his replacement won't be a tax and spend leftie.


I am really curious to see if he mounts a re-election campaign!


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> After the Bobble head and t-shirt sales, I can no longer accept him as mayor of Toronto. This guy need some serious help. In to the rehab with him, after, let him finish his term and after that, let us finish him. I just hope that his replacement won't be a tax and spend leftie.


Me either. As it stands, we have a tax and spend (like hell) righty, he just makes up all this nonsense about not being tax and spend.

Sorta sounds a little familiar


----------



## i-rui

the latest stuff from the police investigation is even more damning :

Judge orders release of more material in Mayor Rob Ford investigation | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun



> Former special assistant of communications Isaac Ransom told police, according to MacKinnon, that he was summoned to City Hall about 9 p.m. on St. Patrick’s Day in 2012 and found Ford there with a few people including a woman he believed may be an escort. He said Ford had drank half of a 40 oz bottle of vodka and was talking about getting hammered and getting laid that night.
> 
> His staff tried unsuccessfully to convince him not to go to Bier Markt, according to Ransom. He said he did manage to stop Ford from smoking pot in his office before he left. He said he’s never seen him do cocaine.
> 
> MacKinnon said that according to the documents, a waiter at the Bier Markt told investigators that he believed Ford had snorted cocaine in a private room that night.
> 
> The waiter said he saw Ford and a woman with their heads down, trying to hide what they were doing, and then heard “two sniffs,” according to the documents. He was told by a Ford staffer not to tell anyone what he had seen - which he said confirmed for him that he had seen the mayor do coke.
> 
> According to the documents, there were four or five people in the private room including some women who didn’t appear to be staffers. About an hour and a half later, the waiter heard that Ford went to the dance floor and pushed people out of the way. The waiter said he later got in trouble from management for telling people Ford did cocaine in the private room of the bar.
> 
> But the Bier Markt manager told police he didn’t see Ford doing drugs that night and the mayor was not kicked out of the bar as some media later reported. A bartender told police he saw the mayor very intoxicated and witnessed him charging the dance floor. He was told by the waiter that Ford had done cocaine that night and the DJ had photos of the mayor “really f---ed up.”
> 
> When he got back to City Hall following his intoxicated evening at the bar, Ransom said Ford pushed staffers Brooks Barnett and Earl Provost because he was agitated they were telling him to go home.
> 
> MacKinnon said that Towhey told police Ford was very drunk on that St. Paddy’s Day at the Bier Markt and he was told by Provost that he saw Ford take OxyContin. Towhey was told Ford got into a physical altercation with two staffers back at his City Hall office that night.
> 
> Provost took him home in a taxi and when they got there, Ford then got into his car and drove off.
> 
> According to the documents seen by the media lawyer, Towhey told police he believes Ford is an alcoholic and was told Ford once bought a mickey of alcohol and then got behind the wheel, according to the documents. He said staff often buy Ford booze. He also said the mayor was incoherent and intoxicated by something on the night of the Garrison Ball but Ford angrily refused Towhey’s advice not to attend.
> 
> Ford’s staff told police that some women came to the mayor’s office saying Ford had told them they could have a job after they smoked joints with him outside of bars, MacKinnon says.
> 
> Staffer Chris Fickel told police, according to MacKinnon, that Payman Aboodowleh, who helped coach the Don Bosco football team, explained in December 2012 that he had stopped talking to Ford because he was worried the mayor was doing a lot of cocaine.
> 
> Fickel told police he believes Ford is an alcoholic and saw him drinking a mickey of vodka, chased down by Gatorade, while he drove them home once from a Don Bosco football game. Fickel said he demanded that he be let out of his car and took a bus.


----------



## groovetube

things are looking up for Ford!

Can only get better!

I read that piece, um, wow.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the latest stuff from the police investigation is even more damning :


What makes this worse?


----------



## groovetube

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford asked to 'reconsider' marching in Santa Claus Parade | CTV Toronto News

Hard to believe Ford is so belligerent and disrespectful that he would still consider being a part of this event for kids.

Oh wait!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> What makes this worse?


really? more allegations of alcohol and drug abuse are cumulative against Ford's public stance that he doesn't have a problem. Allegations of drugs physically being in the mayoral office is new, as well as possible sexual infidelity is also problematic.

Things are definitely getting worse for Ford.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> really? more allegations of alcohol and drug abuse are cumulative against Ford's public stance that he doesn't have a problem. Allegations of drugs physically being in the mayoral office is new, as well as possible sexual infidelity is also problematic.
> 
> Things are definitely getting worse for Ford.


I'm watching the twitter feed as they tweet the new information from the police investigations.

I'm seeing things like doing coke in bathrooms in restaurants with women, to escorts, to driving while drinking, and much more.

It's hard to believe anyone would even try to defend this. Really.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> really? more allegations of alcohol and drug abuse are cumulative against Ford's public stance that he doesn't have a problem. Allegations of drugs physically being in the mayoral office is new, as well as possible sexual infidelity is also problematic.
> 
> Things are definitely getting worse for Ford.


You're kidding me...


----------



## i-rui

maybe in Ford Nation it looked different, but in the rest of Canada today was a bad day for Rob Ford.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> maybe in Ford Nation it looked different, but in the rest of Canada today was a bad day for Rob Ford.


Seriously--you're looking at the possibility of adultery as a slam on Ford? When Bill Clinton was pulling down his pants daily it was "well that's his business."


----------



## i-rui

sexual peccadillos are problematic. I would agree that usually they are between and man & wife to resolve, but it will always affect the public's perception of a politician and usually results in their resignation (right or wrong). To pretend that public accusations won't hurt Ford's image is a bit obtuse. It's another problem that he'll have to deal with.


----------



## Macfury

I think the left sees them as problematic only when they occur on the right.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> sexual peccadillos are problematic. I would agree that usually they are between and man & wife to resolve, but it will always affect the public's perception of a politician and usually results in their resignation (right or wrong). To pretend that public accusations won't hurt Ford's image is a bit obtuse. It's another problem that he'll have to deal with.





Macfury said:


> I think the left sees them as problematic only when they occur on the right.


And vice versa!


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> And vice versa!


I see infidelity as problematic regardless of political stripe. I just think it's disingenuous to jump on Ford for even a hint of (unproven) infidelity, when so many lefty politicians have been caught with their pants down and excused.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> I see infidelity as problematic regardless of political stripe. I just think it's disingenuous to jump on Ford for even a hint of (unproven) infidelity, when so many lefty politicians have been caught with their pants down and excused.


Well traditionally marital infidelity tends to be the preferred transgression of those left of centre. The right side of the spectrum seems to prefer embezzlement.


----------



## groovetube

Ha ha.

I think ford nation is in shock. They are only focusing on tiny bits of this epic disaster, so when they do that, it doesn't feel so bad.

But seriously put this all together, it's THE most epic disaster politically I have ever, seen.


----------



## SINC

Hmmm, a hockey analogy . . .


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I see infidelity as problematic regardless of political stripe. I just think it's disingenuous to jump on Ford for even a hint of (unproven) infidelity, when so many lefty politicians have been caught with their pants down and excused.


i'm merely pointing out that these accusations hurt Ford's (already) damaged image. I'm shocked that you can even dispute this. 

I like Clinton. I certainly give him a pass for his sexual indiscretions, but i wouldn't pretend that his scandal didn't affect his image and reputation. that would just be silly.


----------



## groovetube

If all ford did was smoke pot or had an affair, this wouldn't be, the serious problem that it is.

Btw when did this become a 'leftie vs rightie' issue? How does that have anything to do with it?


----------



## groovetube

Poll: 62% of Torontonians wouldn't vote Rob Ford for mayor in 2014 municipal election 'under any circumstance' | CTV News

Man those aren't good numbers. Or wait, they're great numbers! Ha!


----------



## groovetube

and, ouch.
The most surprising allegation against Rob Ford is that he doesn’t appear to respect the taxpayers | National Post


----------



## Macfury

.


----------



## mrjimmy

Did he really just say that?

:lmao:

Near the end:

Rob Ford admits drinking and driving, says he’ll sue former staffers | Toronto Star

Perhaps the fun loving soul in MacFury's little GIF is doing PR for our outspoken Mayor.

:lmao:


----------



## BigDL

All that's left to say is:

Rob's World, Rob's World. Partyon! Excellent!

Party on Doug, Party on Rob!


----------



## groovetube

It's like the hetrocks from the flinstones has invaded our city to run it.


----------



## MacGuiver

I'm as Conservative as they come and I don't take issue with the direction the City was going however its time for Rob to step down and get help. I only hope there is someone with some moral fibre to take over and stay the course. This man is out of control.
I stood by him when the left tried to shame him for eating at KFC and allude to his unworthiness as a Mayor for his weight issues. I stood by him when they tried to have him removed form city hall for appealing for donations for underprivileged kids on city letter head. I even gave him the benefit of the doubt when allegations first surfaced of the crack video since we hadn't seen it and the left wing media has always frothed at the mouth to boot him out. 
Now however its time to go. His credibility is shot as allegations are met with denial and later followed up with an apology. I wouldn't accept this behaviour from any political leader be he right, left or center.


----------



## Macfury

MacGuiver said:


> I'm as Conservative as they come and I don't take issue with the direction the City was going however its time for Rob to step down and get help. I only hope there is someone with some moral fibre to take over and stay the course. This man is out of control.
> I stood by him when the left tried to shame him for eating at KFC and allude to his unworthiness as a Mayor for his weight issues. I stood by him when they tried to have him removed form city hall for appealing for donations for underprivileged kids on city letter head. I even gave him the benefit of the doubt when allegations first surfaced of the crack video since we hadn't seen it and the left wing media has always frothed at the mouth to boot him out.
> Now however its time to go. His credibility is shot as allegations are met with denial and later followed up with an apology. I wouldn't accept this behaviour from any political leader be he right, left or center.



I might cut him a little more slack if he was kicking budget ass, but that seems to have stalled. With all of the people he's suing now he may need the time off.


----------



## groovetube

MacGuiver said:


> I'm as Conservative as they come and I don't take issue with the direction the City was going however its time for Rob to step down and get help. I only hope there is someone with some moral fibre to take over and stay the course. This man is out of control.
> I stood by him when the left tried to shame him for eating at KFC and allude to his unworthiness as a Mayor for his weight issues. I stood by him when they tried to have him removed form city hall for appealing for donations for underprivileged kids on city letter head. I even gave him the benefit of the doubt when allegations first surfaced of the crack video since we hadn't seen it and the left wing media has always frothed at the mouth to boot him out.
> Now however its time to go. His credibility is shot as allegations are met with denial and later followed up with an apology.* I wouldn't accept this behaviour from any political leader be he right, left or center.*


I think that's where this is now. It's no longer an issue about his policies, right or left, etc etc. As for who best to take the chair should he resign or lose the next election (given there isn't a smitherman to run against this time a most likely result) I have zero problem voting for a fiscally conservative mayor, one who understands the problems of toronto, and one who can work with all regions without creating an 'us and them' scenario. It just isn't necessary in city politics really.


----------



## Macfury

If Olivia Chow ran for Mayor, I would still hold my nose and vote for Ford.


----------



## mrjimmy

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.










+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> If Olivia Chow ran for Mayor, I would still hold my nose and vote for Ford.


+1
Sadly there is no good candidates in Toronto.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> +1
> Sadly there is no good candidates in Toronto.


Do you live in Toronto out of interest?

there'll be other candidates who are not only fiscally responsible, but 1) drink drunk 2) smoke crack 3) lie about everything, including his own record which has been totally busted.

It's hard to understand why anyone would vote for anyone like the likes of rob ford, for any reason. His fiscal record, is totally bogus.


----------



## i-rui

jimmy kimmel is loving this:





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Wait until they get a hold of today's stuff.

I think Rob Ford has redefined the term 'sleazeball'.


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> +1
> Sadly there is no good candidates in Toronto.


Rob Ford is still the most fiscally conservative mayor we've seen in ages, despite the no-brain efforts to make it look like he is a heavy spender by people who don't know an asset from their asses. Paying for trains ordered by Miller is not something he can control.


----------



## i-rui

are you aware of his planned scarborough subway extension? how is that fiscally conservative? only a billion more than what was proposed!

what about the "gravy" in his office? creating a new $100,000 position for his brothers BFF. Is that fiscally conservative? how about making city staff run errands for his football team and change batteries on his children's toys? is that the best use for city dollars? how about offering raises for his staff once they all started to resign after his scandal(s)? is that a penny pinching mayor?

there are plenty of other fiscal conservatives on council. some have already announced they'll be running (Karen Stintz) others who have hinted they will (Denzil Minnan-Wong).

however they'll all be crushed should Olivia Chow enter the race. And Ford Nation fully deserves her to come in to City Council and run things in her own special way after putting this buffoon in office. maybe the half-wits who elected Ford will think next time on the ramifications of electing someone so thoroughly unqualified.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> the half-wits who elected Ford


You're being far too kind.

Oh, and I might add, _still support him..._


----------



## Rps

Say just saw Rob Ford on TV. We do not see him much here in Windsor. Looks like he's lost weight ..... Must be a new diet.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> are you aware of his planned scarborough subway extension? how is that fiscally conservative? only a billion more than what was proposed!
> 
> what about the "gravy" in his office? creating a new $100,000 position for his brothers BFF. Is that fiscally conservative? how about making city staff run errands for his football team and change batteries on his children's toys? is that the best use for city dollars? how about offering raises for his staff once they all started to resign after his scandal(s)? is that a penny pinching mayor?
> 
> there are plenty of other fiscal conservatives on council. some have already announced they'll be running (Karen Stintz) others who have hinted they will (Denzil Minnan-Wong).
> 
> however they'll all be crushed should Olivia Chow enter the race. And Ford Nation fully deserves her to come in to City Council and run things in her own special way after putting this buffoon in office. maybe the half-wits who elected Ford will think next time on the ramifications of electing someone so thoroughly unqualified.





mrjimmy said:


> You're being far too kind.
> 
> Oh, and I might add, _still support him..._


Apparently, it's simply too much to ask that a mayor can not only be fiscally conservative, but is able to function past this amoeba of a human being who from what I hear is driving while intoxicated, smoking crack, and all the rest of the crap, including using city resources to buy his booze and play off 'loyal friends' with 6 figure salaries.

No it's far too much to ask, no one else exists in this city who can do the job. Can you imagine actually believing that?

Ford and his multi billion dollar boondoggles of subways where there isn't the ridership for like 50 years, which will over costs, slamming our property taxes with a surcharge for what, 30 years? His lies of saving us a billion (when his spending is way up, wait til he adds all his subway plans...) is no where near being fiscally conservative. He shouts about it, but completely fails at actually delivering. On anything.

FAIL.


----------



## groovetube

Rps said:


> Say just saw Rob Ford on TV. We do not see him much here in Windsor. Looks like he's lost weight ..... Must be a new diet.


Apparently losing 5-60 pounds cures drug and alcohol addiction. Who knew?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Love to see Ford and Duffy in a Sumo match at the Kokugikan.


----------



## groovetube

That's not something people can unsee. Please no.


----------



## CubaMark

Re: Today's revelations. I said it before - needs saying again. His poor wife...and kids....


----------



## macintosh doctor

There might be light at the end of the tunnel. John Tory. He is testing the waters. 
The brainless wonders of Toronto better not screw this chance over to have a real politician with real experience.



groovetube said:


> Do you live in Toronto out of interest?
> 
> there'll be other candidates who are not only fiscally responsible, but 1) drink drunk 2) smoke crack 3) lie about everything, including his own record which has been totally busted.
> 
> It's hard to understand why anyone would vote for anyone like the likes of rob ford, for any reason. His fiscal record, is totally bogus.


I left and never looked back, when the nut jobs of Toronto voted Miller in instead of Tory. 
I knew then TO is not place to live in.


----------



## groovetube

Interestingly enough, Toronto soared!

The people who don't get it that yammer about the property tax increases don't quite understand that not only were much of our property taxes at like 1960 levels, but lastman froze any increases to get elected which created a real problem financially.

In 2000 I was paying less than 1500 a year on a big 3 bedroom house while north of us they were well above 3 grand already.

Our property taxes are still relatively lower than most, that is until Ford gets his way with more and more surcharges on top of everything including for 30 years on our property taxes for his subway boondoggles.


----------



## mrjimmy

> The only thing that gets me through the ridiculous amount of non-stop cunnilingus I have to perform is the sweet relief of crack.






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.










+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

A 400 pound Andy Dick running the city.

Brilliant!


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> Interestingly enough, Toronto soared!
> 
> The people who don't get it that yammer about the property tax increases don't quite understand that not only were much of our property taxes at like 1960 levels, but lastman froze any increases to get elected which created a real problem financially.
> 
> In 2000 I was paying less than 1500 a year on a big 3 bedroom house while north of us they were well above 3 grand already.
> 
> Our property taxes are still relatively lower than most, that is until Ford gets his way with more and more surcharges on top of everything including for 30 years on our property taxes for his subway boondoggles.


disagree.. our town home we had in etobicoke soared from $2600 to well over $6000 per year - during our time [ 5 years of ownership] which was before Ford and before and during Miller..
plus it was on a private road - which meant I was paying for services we never received and paid privately on top the taxes.. 
so your example is far from accurate..
we moved to the 'burbs and never looked back since..


----------



## groovetube

You were in etobicoke, which before amalgamation had property tax increases. I'm talking city of toronto before amalgamation and lastmans failure to even modestly bring up taxes to even close to the burbs after amalgamation.

It's accurate all right.

I don't think your experience of being on a private road is relevant to most city of Toronto home owners.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> You were in etobicoke, which before amalgamation had property tax increases. I'm talking city of toronto before amalgamation and lastmans failure to even modestly bring up taxes to even close to the burbs after amalgamation.
> 
> It's accurate all right.
> 
> I don't think your experience of being on a private road is relevant to most city of Toronto home owners.


I was in etobicoke as city of Toronto.. 
any way.. that is part of the reason.. inconsistency of bad services or services not rendered for fees applied..

Toronto is full of socialists that run up the bills and support hogs at the feeding trough - that the unions are.. 
The one time - fiscal conservative came to rein in on the spending.. they lam based him to the point of his personal failure in public.. 
So now they want Oliva chow back which will be another Miller and bend over backwards for unions and give them what they want.


----------



## groovetube

Oh rob fords criminal activity is the socialists fault! They made him drive drunk! They made him smoke crack and hang out with gangbangers! :lmao:

What a bunch of crap.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> Oh rob fords criminal activity is the socialists fault! They made him drive drunk! They made him smoke crack and hang out with gangbangers! :lmao:
> 
> What a bunch of crap.


I don't really care what Rob Ford did on his personal time.. Just like Bill Clinton - he played with 'felines' and got burned.. 

but I do care that the socialist are going to turn Toronto into the next Detroit


----------



## rondini

Lambasted


----------



## groovetube

Unbelievable.


----------



## i-rui

macintosh doctor said:


> disagree.. our town home we had in etobicoke soared from $2600 to well over $6000 per year - during our time [ 5 years of ownership] which was before Ford and before and during Miller..


in property tax? I don't see how that is mathematically possible in the time frame you're claiming. unless your property was dramatically reassessed.


----------



## groovetube

I thought the same thing. Our property taxes rose dramatically in the 2000s, but no where even close to that percentage, and over 10 years.


----------



## rondini

Did you know the house was on a private road when you bought it? If so, then purchasing it means you agreed to how the city was taxing it, private or not. If taxes went up, so what.
Boo-frickety-hoo!


----------



## macintosh doctor

i-rui said:


> in property tax? I don't see how that is mathematically possible in the time frame you're claiming. unless your property was dramatically reassessed.


That is why I left.. Miller was spending like a millionaire and they were raising our taxes like it was a cash cow for them..
so we made the choice not to part of the insanity any longer..

Plus our city consular was behaving like she was entitled to be in power
'gloria lindsy luby.. '


----------



## i-rui

i know pre-miller there was a 5%, and a 4.25%ish property tax increase (the previous 3 years they were frozen), and for the first 4 years of miller the increases were steady @ 3%. 

there is no mathematical way property taxes could more than double in 5 years.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> i know pre-miller there was a 5%, and a 4.25%ish property tax increase (the previous 3 years they were frozen), and for the first 4 years of miller the increases were steady @ 3%.
> 
> there is no mathematical way property taxes could more than double in 5 years.


Of course there is. Charges to a single block or what have you for special services, and your homes appraised value increasing more than the city average. 

The latter is because property taxes are a percentage of the appraised value. If your homes appraised value doubles while the average for the city remains stagnant, that alone would see your taxes double.


----------



## i-rui

yes, as i previously said :



i-rui said:


> in property tax? I don't see how that is mathematically possible in the time frame you're claiming. *unless your property was dramatically reassessed*.


but that is not the same thing as property tax increases. property reassessment is entirely separate and happens in all municipalities. if your home is reassessed to a dramatically higher value it means you were paying a greatly reduced amount compared to it's market value.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> yes, as i previously said :
> 
> 
> 
> but that is not the same thing as property tax increases. property reassessment is entirely separate and happens in all municipalities. if your home is reassessed to a dramatically higher value it means you were paying a greatly reduced amount compared to it's market value.


Nice spin, but it simply means your home has increased more in value than the average, and your property taxes have therefore doubled. This even though in all likelihood your ability to pay those taxes has not increased nearly as dramatically. 

A number of elderly folks in the Kensington area of Calgary suffered a similar fate when that area became yuppie haven and older homes were dozed and replaced with MacMansions. These old geezers, many on fixed incomes, could not even afford new roofs let alone the tax increases on the million dollar assessments for 80 year old 2 or three bedroom bungalows. To make matters even worse most were on fixed incomes, lived close to all the stores they need, had no desire to sell a home they had lived in for most of their lives, then buy in a location where they would have to drive or take a cab wherever they went.
*
English translation: If you're paying twice as much, your taxes have doubled.*


----------



## groovetube

It's not spin, it's the reality. We sold our last home where are taxes were almost 2000 less than the house we have now. 

It isn't dramatically larger, but is assessed at a much much higher value.

Blame the market and what people are paying for houses.


----------



## CubaMark

John Stewart's reaction to the latest Ford revelations was priceless...

Jon Stewart Open Fire Obama and Mayor Rob Ford - To day (14th November 2013) - YouTube


----------



## Dr.G.

Was reading this article in the Globe and Mail website -- "Rob Ford stripped of key powers in council vote -- Toronto mayor loses authority during emergencies".

What is going to happen if they get another snow emergency this winter????? Call in Mel Lastman who will call in the troops????

Rick Mercer Report : Special Report - YouTube


----------



## groovetube

There is the deputy mayor.


----------



## macintosh doctor

This whole situation reminds me of grade A losers who ran school consul. The ring leader is Wong who appeared
On CNN like he represents Toronto In anyway. 
No surprise anyway one with a brain would even want to run for mayor in Toronto. Hence the choices we have as mayor.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> There is the deputy mayor.


When TO is under attack with a major snow storm, will the deputy mayor have the foresight and/or the courage to call in the army??? We shall see.


----------



## groovetube

We'll he isn't likely to be in his basement wasted and useless!


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> This whole situation reminds me of grade A losers who ran school consul. The ring leader is Wong who appeared
> On CNN like he represents Toronto In anyway.
> No surprise anyway one with a brain would even want to run for mayor in Toronto. Hence the choices we have as mayor.


So, councillor Doug ford was just on CNN as well as if he represented Toronto.

Wong was the one as far as I know who brought forth the motion, why not talk about it on media?


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> So, councillor Doug ford was just on CNN as well as if he represented Toronto.
> 
> Wong was the one as far as I know who brought forth the motion, why not talk about it on media?


Well, Doug Ford has the support of his brother, and will be strong enough to take on Mother Nature and call out the troops, if needed, to save the folks of TO in the event of a major storm.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Was reading this article in the Globe and Mail website -- "Rob Ford stripped of key powers in council vote -- Toronto mayor loses authority during emergencies"


Robert Ford will walk down each street, clearing snow with his mighty frame as he passes.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Oh oh*

.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> So, councillor Doug ford was just on CNN as well as if he represented Toronto.
> 
> Wong was the one as far as I know who brought forth the motion, why not talk about it on media?


this whole situation is a massive gong show from the consulars to the media and the mayor - they all share the blame here..

its time for an election.. I JUST PRAY NO BARBARA HALL OR DAVID MILLERS show up or Toronto is finished for good and we should just file for chapter 11 right now.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

macintosh doctor said:


> this whole situation is a massive gong show from the consulars to the media and the mayor - they all share the blame here..
> 
> its time for an election.. I JUST PRAY NO BARBARA HALL OR DAVID MILLERS show up or Toronto is finished for good and we should just file for chapter 11 right now.


Weeeeeeee Chapter 11. What does that mean in Kanukistan? Weeee!


----------



## whatiwant

I've been walking around the house all week saying "Denzil Minnan-Wong" like Matt Damon in Team America.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUa5oHgYV2k]Matt Damon in Team America - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## macintosh doctor

jawknee said:


> I've been walking around the house all week saying "Denzil Minnan-Wong" like Matt Damon in Team America.
> 
> Matt Damon in Team America - YouTube


Hoping its made you sick as it has me.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Poor poor Robby!


----------



## i-rui

Enough to Eat at Home


----------



## Macfury

How does the image relate to the statement? Is that it? Just an endless loop of the head swinging?


----------



## whatiwant

It's certainly nauseating.


Macfury said:


> How does the image relate to the statement? Is that it? Just an endless loop of the head swinging?


----------



## whatiwant

macintosh doctor said:


> Hoping its made you sick as it has me.


Opportunists of all stripes are feasting on this one. Clearly the guy has to go, but yah.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> Enough to Eat at Home


His head is a wrecking ball. That special comment of his was the blow that knocked the 'house' down.


----------



## screature

Sorry, I am not resident of the GTA so I really shouldn't be replying here... but if RF was my Mayor I would want him to step aside based on his admitted lies alone. 

Regardless of admission and apology, he needs to go IMO.

At this point it seems he is only protecting his salary (self interest) and not representing the people of the GTA... Until he is gone there is far too much time being wasted in City Council on him that should be properly spent on other matters.

That is my take from a non-resident of the GTA.

All he needs to do to now make up for his lost income is get a ghost writer and publish a book...

He is internationally infamous now so the sales should be terrific. But somehow I get the feeling he isn't smart enough to realize the opportunity when it is starring him in the face.


----------



## macintosh doctor

screature said:


> Sorry, I am not resident of the GTA so I really shouldn't be replying here... but if RF was my Mayor I would want him to step aside based on his admitted lies alone.
> 
> Regardless of admission and apology, he needs to go IMO.
> 
> At this point it seems he is only protecting his salary (self interest) and not representing the people of the GTA... Until he is gone there is far too much time being wasted in City Council on him that should be properly spent on other matters.
> 
> That is my take from a non-resident of the GTA.
> 
> All he needs to do to now make up for his lost income is get a ghost writer and publish a book...
> 
> He is internationally infamous now so the sales should be terrific. But somehow I get the feeling he isn't smart enough to realize the opportunity when it is starring him in the face.


Problem is Rob doesn't need the money his family is well off, at this point he is being hard headed because of principal, I think the whole city consul and himself should step down starting with Wong and Ford. Next the media [the toronto star is very much to blame, as they had it our for him since day one.. socialist / leftist are winning.. ]


----------



## minstrel

"the toronto star is very much to blame,"

What...for reporting a story about a video, seen by two reputable reporters? A video that, much to the Ford's disappointment came to light as a result of a police investigation? A video that turned out to be just the tip of the iceberg that is Rob Ford's antics?

And why on earth should the entire council resign?


----------



## mrjimmy

Andrew Coyne: Rob Ford mess a monster born of divisive and condescending populism | National Post



> And of all his enablers, the most culpable are the strategists, the ones who fashioned his image as the defender of the little guy, the suburban strivers, against the downtown elites, with their degrees and their symphonies — the ones who turned a bundle of inchoate resentments into Ford Nation. Sound familiar? It is the same condescending populism, the same aggressively dumb, harshly divisive message that has become the playbook for the right generally in this country, in all its contempt for learning, its disdain for facts, its disrespect of convention and debasing of standards. They can try to run away from him now, but they made this monster, and they will own him for years to come.
> 
> Get help? He’s had plenty.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Andrew Coyne: Rob Ford mess a monster born of divisive and condescending populism | National Post


Two words: George Smitherman. Anyone with a track record even slightly less incompetent could have steamrollered Rob Ford in the last election.


----------



## groovetube

jawknee said:


> It's certainly nauseating.


And that's the point!


----------



## BigDL

mrjimmy said:


> Andrew Coyne: Rob Ford mess a monster born of divisive and condescending populism | National Post





> And of all his enablers, the most culpable are the strategists, the ones who fashioned his image as the defender of the little guy, the suburban strivers, against the downtown elites, with their degrees and their symphonies — the ones who turned a bundle of inchoate resentments into Ford Nation. Sound familiar? It is the same condescending populism, the same aggressively dumb, harshly divisive message that has become the playbook for the right generally in this country, in all its contempt for learning, its disdain for facts, its disrespect of convention and debasing of standards. They can try to run away from him now, but they made this monster, and they will own him for years to come.
> 
> Get help? He’s had plenty.


Seems many of the other right of centre commentators are running away from Rob Ford's connection to the Ontario Conservatives and Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government. 

"It is the same condescending populism, the same aggressively dumb, harshly divisive message that has become the playbook for the right generally in this country, in all its contempt for learning, its disdain for facts, its disrespect of convention and debasing of standards."

These commentators want us to understand there is no connection what so ever between Harper, Flaherty et al with Rob Ford.


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> Seems many of the other right of centre commentators are running away from Rob Ford's connection to the Ontario Conservatives and Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government.


What is the connection, BigDL?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> Seems many of the other right of centre commentators are running away from Rob Ford's connection to the Ontario Conservatives and Stephen Harper's Strong, Stable, Majority, Conservative Government.
> 
> "It is the same condescending populism, the same aggressively dumb, harshly divisive message that has become the playbook for the right generally in this country, in all its contempt for learning, its disdain for facts, its disrespect of convention and debasing of standards."
> 
> These commentators want us to understand there is no connection what so ever between Harper, Flaherty et al with Rob Ford.


yes there was that 'hat trick' video of the harper/flaherty appearances at the ford dynasty BBQ that apparently was being knocked off of youtube a few times.

heh heh, hat trick indeed!


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> yes there was that 'hat trick' video of the harper/flaherty appearances at the ford dynasty BBQ that apparently was being knocked off of youtube a few times.
> 
> heh heh, hat trick indeed!


It's free food - half of Toronto went - supports and non LOL


----------



## groovetube

I'm pretty sure Harper and Flaherty weren't there for the free food. LOL.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> yes there was that 'hat trick' video of the harper/flaherty appearances at the ford dynasty BBQ that apparently was being knocked off of youtube a few times.
> 
> heh heh, hat trick indeed!


HAT TRICK: THE VIDEO HARPER, HUDAK AND FORD TRIED TO SUPPRESS | Warren Kinsella


----------



## Macfury

That's hilarious. The horror-movie music in particular. 

Just typical glad-handing and political bushwah.


----------



## JAMG

I am interested to know if the rest of council, facing Rob's refusal to step aside, have considered resigning en-mass and call what would in essence be an election (mass of by-elections) with the only issue being Rob Ford as Mayor. Surely if they are right in the public mood it should be an easy referendum on Ford's ability to hold office. It would certainly change the story.

I am not from Toronto, but I enjoy watching the Fords turn existing city council into a mass of apoplectic hissy fitters. Watching Denzel "Too weak to be Mayor" cry for an apology was hilarious as was the immaturity of Councillors turning their backs and pretending not to hear Rob speak.

Council is broken and nothing short of a municipal election is going to change this train wreak.


----------



## BigDL

Now that's just too funny.

Rob Ford is not a problem. Rob Ford is not wrong, it's the rest of the council that is wrong.

Man what a cut up! :lmao::lmao: :clap:


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## macintosh doctor

JAMG said:


> I am interested to know if the rest of council, facing Rob's refusal to step aside, have considered resigning en-mass and call what would in essence be an election (mass of by-elections) with the only issue being Rob Ford as Mayor. Surely if they are right in the public mood it should be an easy referendum on Ford's ability to hold office. It would certainly change the story.
> 
> I am not from Toronto, but I enjoy watching the Fords turn existing city council into a mass of apoplectic hissy fitters. Watching Denzel "Too weak to be Mayor" cry for an apology was hilarious as was the immaturity of Councillors turning their backs and pretending not to hear Rob speak.
> 
> Council is broken and nothing short of a municipal election is going to change this train wreak.


OMG!! someone else who sees it my way. 
They are all grade A losers who need to be outsed !!!!
Starting with Wong!!!!!


----------



## Macfury

JAMG said:


> I am interested to know if the rest of council, facing Rob's refusal to step aside, have considered resigning en-mass and call what would in essence be an election (mass of by-elections) with the only issue being Rob Ford as Mayor. Surely if they are right in the public mood it should be an easy referendum on Ford's ability to hold office. It would certainly change the story.
> 
> I am not from Toronto, but I enjoy watching the Fords turn existing city council into a mass of apoplectic hissy fitters. Watching Denzel "Too weak to be Mayor" cry for an apology was hilarious as was the immaturity of Councillors turning their backs and pretending not to hear Rob speak.
> 
> Council is broken and nothing short of a municipal election is going to change this train wreak.


They would never do it--even over this obvious issue they face fear of having their own personal gravy trains interrupted. And yes, I agree that watching these impotent characters trying to position themselves in this mess is simply sad.

I'm still amazed that the Toronto police department is so turned against Ford that they would release hearsay evidence, not even collected under oath, on a legal matter currently in progress. As bad as Ford is, he doesn't deserve this sort of "special treatment" under the law.


----------



## minstrel

I was under the impression that the information was released by order of the Ontario Superior Court, not Toronto Police Services. Am I mistaken?


----------



## Macfury

minstrel said:


> I was under the impression that the information was released by order of the Ontario Superior Court, not Toronto Police Services. Am I mistaken?


I'm referring to Blair's initial release of information on Ford, when Ford was not charged with any crime. 

I also disagree with Justice Nordheimer's decision, however, except where the released information involves Lisi.


----------



## BigDL

*Facts Can Be Used To Prove Anything!*



minstrel said:


> I was under the impression that the information was released by order of the Ontario Superior Court, not Toronto Police Services. Am I mistaken?


There you go!

Introduction of facts to twist the narrative of the story towards a logical conclusion.

How dare you! Not submitting talking points to maintain the right. Rob is right, further discussion need not to be entered into. Repeat the right talking points until proof is no longer required.


----------



## Macfury

minstrel said:


> I was under the impression that the information was released by order of the Ontario Superior Court, not Toronto Police Services. Am I mistaken?


By the way it is Toronto Police _Service_. The Toronto Police Services Board is the oversight body.


----------



## minstrel

Of course it is. I wish autocorrect could actually fix blunders like that one!


----------



## Rps

I don't live in Toronto, but isn't the real issue here The city of Toronto Act and the fact they did not think of a removal process in the municipal government's design? I live in a town where we had a situation where we wanted to dump the mayor but there was no process to do so other than run out the term. Additionally, Ford has not been convicted of anything that would spark his removal ...... Not defending just pointing out his actions, while , at least to me to be deserving of removal, are not nor have they been proven in law ....... Just sayin.


----------



## BigDL

Rps said:


> I don't live in Toronto, but isn't the real issue here The city of Toronto Act and the fact they did not think of a removal process in the municipal government's design? I live in a town where we had a situation where we wanted to dump the mayor but there was no process to do so other than run out the term. Additionally, Ford has not been convicted of anything that would spark his removal ...... Not defending just pointing out his actions, while , at least to me to be deserving of removal, are not nor have they been proven in law ....... Just sayin.


Why bother with a natural justice process. No time to wait, let's throw the bums out, just lynch'em.

A method good enough for Stephen Harper and some bothersome senators. Why not for Mayor Ford? 

Because ignoring natural justice can produce strange fruit indeed.


----------



## groovetube

JAMG said:


> I am interested to know if the rest of council, facing Rob's refusal to step aside, have considered resigning en-mass and call what would in essence be an election (mass of by-elections) with the only issue being Rob Ford as Mayor. Surely if they are right in the public mood it should be an easy referendum on Ford's ability to hold office. It would certainly change the story.
> 
> I am not from Toronto, but I enjoy watching the Fords turn existing city council into a mass of apoplectic hissy fitters. Watching Denzel "Too weak to be Mayor" cry for an apology was hilarious as was the immaturity of Councillors turning their backs and pretending not to hear Rob speak.
> 
> Council is broken and nothing short of a municipal election is going to change this train wreak.


Clearly you're not from Toronto!

And it seems these democratically elected councillors have turned the tables, it's the fords now and their supporters all screeching and having hissy fits with cries of legal action etc.

If there is any clear example of dysfunction, oh sweet Jesus that would be the Fords!


----------



## groovetube

minstrel said:


> I was under the impression that the information was released by order of the Ontario Superior Court, not Toronto Police Services. Am I mistaken?


It was. But ford nation has now created the chief bill Blair boogie man to go with all the others now (can't keep track) and it apparently his fault the information was released.


----------



## Macfury

Rps said:


> I don't live in Toronto, but isn't the real issue here The city of Toronto Act and the fact they did not think of a removal process in the municipal government's design? I live in a town where we had a situation where we wanted to dump the mayor but there was no process to do so other than run out the term. Additionally, Ford has not been convicted of anything that would spark his removal ......


This is exactly the issue. He needs to be charged and convicted of a crime.




BigDL said:


> Why bother with a natural justice process. No time to wait, let's throw the bums out, just lynch'em.
> 
> A method good enough for Stephen Harper and some bothersome senators.


Your analysis reflects a significant lack of knowledge regarding historical detail. The Canadian senate suspensions have legal precedent, including Senator Andrew Thompson who was stripped of salary and benefits in 1998 by a majority senate vote. Stephen Harper did not suspend the senators in this case, the senate did. You may be angry over the decision, but you have the details all wrong.


----------



## i-rui

Rps said:


> I don't live in Toronto, but isn't the real issue here The city of Toronto Act and the fact they did not think of a removal process in the municipal government's design? I live in a town where we had a situation where we wanted to dump the mayor but there was no process to do so other than run out the term. Additionally, Ford has not been convicted of anything that would spark his removal ...... Not defending just pointing out his actions, while , at least to me to be deserving of removal, are not nor have they been proven in law ....... Just sayin.





Macfury said:


> This is exactly the issue. He needs to be charged and convicted of a crime.


not only charged and convicted, he actually has to be imprisoned. the process (after appeals) would take years. Definitely longer than the rest of this term, potentially longer than a 2nd term if he was to get re-elected (after appeals).

the reason the city of toronto act doesn't have the power to remove the mayor is because no reasonable person could have foreseen such a shameless individual as Rob Ford. Any rational politician would have stepped down after the first of Ford's numerous scandals. It's crazy that we now have to consider "Rob Ford proofing" our municipal acts!



Macfury said:


> Your analysis reflects a significant lack of knowledge regarding historical detail. The Canadian senate suspensions have legal precedent, including Senator Andrew Thompson who was stripped of salary and benefits in 1998 by a majority senate vote. Stephen Harper did not suspend the senators in this case, the senate did. You may be angry over the decision, but you have the details all wrong.


not really the same thing. Senator Thompson was suspended for contempt when he refused to show up at a special hearing regarding his conduct. The 3 recently suspended senators were suspended while co-operating with the senate's audits and hearings.


----------



## i-rui

colbert's bit on Ford was great :





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






the SNL opening was kind of disappointing :





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## eMacMan

Macfury said:


> This is exactly the issue. He needs to be charged and convicted of a crime.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your analysis reflects a significant lack of knowledge regarding historical detail. The Canadian senate suspensions have legal precedent, including Senator Andrew Thompson who was stripped of salary and benefits in 1998 by a majority senate vote. *Stephen Harper did not suspend the senators in this case, the senate did. You may be angry over the decision, but you have the details all wrong*.


At the King's Command so indeed one can say Harpo pulled the trigger.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> not really the same thing. Senator Thompson was suspended for contempt when he refused to show up at a special hearing regarding his conduct. The 3 recently suspended senators were suspended while co-operating with the senate's audits and hearings.


They were co-operating with an investigation --_in which they were guilty of malfeasance._ 

However, Thompson was stripped him of his privileges _before_ being suspended for contempt. Also, the Senate is not required to find contempt to suspend a Senator.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> colbert's bit on Ford was great :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the SNL opening was kind of disappointing :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


Yeah the Colbert clip was far better. 



eMacMan said:


> At the King's Command so indeed one can say Harpo pulled the trigger.


I think this is pretty obvious


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> It was. But ford nation has now created the chief bill Blair boogie man to go with all the others now (can't keep track) and it apparently his fault the information was released.


The police did not release any documents redacted or non redacted. The media went to the courts to have access to documents (previous court orders) normally available to the public. 

The courts agreed the document(s) should be revealed to the public and so ordered the release of the requested material(s) (with necessary redactions as required) on at least two occasions.




Macfury said:


> Your analysis reflects a significant lack of knowledge regarding historical detail. The Canadian senate suspensions have legal precedent, including Senator Andrew Thompson who was stripped of salary and benefits in 1998 by a majority senate vote. Stephen Harper did not suspend the senators in this case, the senate did. You may be angry over the decision, but you have the details all wrong.





i-rui said:


> not only charged and convicted, he actually has to be imprisoned. the process (after appeals) would take years. Definitely longer than the rest of this term, potentially longer than a 2nd term if he was to get re-elected (after appeals).
> 
> the reason the city of toronto act doesn't have the power to remove the mayor is because no reasonable person could have foreseen such a shameless individual as Rob Ford. Any rational politician would have stepped down after the first of Ford's numerous scandals. It's crazy that we now have to consider "Rob Ford proofing" our municipal acts!
> 
> 
> 
> not really the same thing. Senator Thompson was suspended for contempt when he refused to show up at a special hearing regarding his conduct. The 3 recently suspended senators were suspended while co-operating with the senate's audits and hearings.


I have to agree with i-rui statements.

Seems I have to disagree with some being selective with regard to the facts. Perhaps it's the "Ford Nation Effect." Blame the Police Chief so as to deflect the responsibility of wrong doing.

Say "it was the Senate" when in reality it was the Harper Strong Stable Majority Conservative Government's Bill that suspended the "Three Errant Senators" who where recommended to the Governor General for appointment. 

Yes, yes, indeed, *it was*David Johnson who appointed "Three Errant Senators." 

It's David Johnson's fault for appointing the "Three Errant Senators?" I should agree that GG Johnson, have exercised better judgement?


----------



## groovetube

BigDL said:


> The police did not release any documents redacted or non redacted. The media went to the courts to have access to documents (previous court orders) normally available to the public.
> 
> The courts agreed the document(s) should be revealed to the public and so ordered the release of the requested material(s) (with necessary redactions as required) on at least two occasions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to agree with i-rui statements.
> 
> Seems I have to disagree with some being selective with regard to the facts. Perhaps it's the "Ford Nation Effect." Blame the Police Chief so as to deflect the responsibility of wrong doing.
> 
> Say "it was the Senate" when in reality it was the Harper Strong Stable Majority Conservative Government's Bill that suspended the "Three Errant Senators" who where recommended to the Governor General for appointment.
> 
> Yes, yes, indeed, *it was*David Johnson who appointed "Three Errant Senators."
> 
> It's David Johnson's fault for appointing the "Three Errant Senators?" I should agree that GG Johnson, have exercised better judgement?


Well I think most people might figure out it wasn't the cops who released the info, but amazingly enough, people will believe what they want.

Soon that whole everyone's out to get me thing will get old


----------



## Macfury

BigDL said:


> The police did not release any documents redacted or non redacted. The media went to the courts to have access to documents (previous court orders) normally available to the public.
> 
> The courts agreed the document(s) should be revealed to the public and so ordered the release of the requested material(s) (with necessary redactions as required) on at least two occasions.


Chief Blair released evidence in his statements, not documents. Since Lisi was not featured in the "crack video " and Mayor ford was not charged with anything, Blair spoke out of turn.



BigDL said:


> Say "it was the Senate" when in reality it was the Harper Strong Stable Majority Conservative Government's Bill...


What Bill was that?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> They were co-operating with an investigation --_in which they were guilty of malfeasance._


don't want to side track too much since this is the Rob Ford thread, but i believe the senate motion was for 'gross negligence', and i'm sure the senators accused would disagree that they were guilty.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> don't want to side track too much since this is the Rob Ford thread, but i believe the senate motion was for 'gross negligence', and i'm sure the senators accused would disagree that they were guilty.


I'm sure they would disagree they were guilty. It does not change the legality of the vote.


----------



## i-rui

i wouldn't challenge that the senate vote was legal. i question if it was the right thing to do. i'm not going to lose sleep over it either way....


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i wouldn't challenge that the senate vote was legal. i question if it was the right thing to do. i'm not going to lose sleep over it either way....


I agree. My point was simply that the suspensions followed some sort of precedent and that they followed a vote, not en executive order of the Prime Minister or a Bill. I think we can both go to sleep now--but in separate beds.


----------



## SINC

So, Ford did indeed show up at the CFL eastern final today. What a guy, out supporting his team, although they did lose.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> So, Ford did indeed show up at the CFL eastern final today. What a guy, out supporting his team, although they did lose.


Damn! That's why he wasn't at the Santa Claus parade!


----------



## groovetube

The CNN guys pretty much have this all figured out, not that it takes much... 

In the heart of Ford nation with Toronto's embattled mayor - CNN.com


----------



## mrjimmy

Apologists and hypocrisy abound:

Law-and-order Conservatives offer only hugs for Rob Ford: Tim Harper | Toronto Star


----------



## CubaMark

*mrjimmy*, that deserves more than to be linked - it deserves to be quoted...



> The Conservative party of Canada, most significantly its Toronto ministers and MPs, is now defined by its silence over the tumultuous train wreck known as Rob Ford in the past two weeks.
> 
> “Conservative values are Canadian values. Canadian values are conservative values,’’ Stephen Harper told us after he won his 2011 majority.
> But watching those “values” daily trashed by a man his party embraced, Harper has remained silent. He has done what he so often does. He has merely made himself unavailable to any Canadian journalist while chaos engulfed Ford.





> But Conservatives only want to talk about Justin Trudeau, who admitted to smoking a joint at a dinner party and wants to legalize marijuana.
> In a leap of logic that is frankly dumbfounding, Justice Minister Peter MacKay tried to equate Trudeau’s joint smoking with Ford’s litany of self-confessed crimes, ranging from crack cocaine smoking, purchasing drugs and drinking and driving.





> Liberal drug talk is bad. Conservative drug use is a family matter.


----------



## rondini

Another reason that I have gone from a life long PC party supporter to an occasional Liberal.


----------



## macintosh doctor

watching the live debate today.. someone was taunting the mayor from the gallery so he rushed the audience like a line backer.. during his rush, he plowed over a frail old lady consular who tried to stop him LMAO..
is she really that dumb? he has two body guards plus his bro..


----------



## groovetube

yeah dumb lady, let's herself get pushed a couple feet from some big jerk, she should really think twice for standing somewhere eh?

She didn't 'try to stop him', sh was in the way, and in true Ford fashion he shoved her anyway. Filthy waste of skin pushes a woman like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1dJeMtb08

oh.
http://gamereax.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/fordcouncilmeeting.gif

Ford nation, must be proud.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> *mrjimmy*, that deserves more than to be linked - it deserves to be quoted...


Are you that obtuse? For the Conservatives, it's about _legalizing_ the drugs. Everyone already knew that Justin and his parent were notorious dopers.


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> watching the live debate today.. someone was taunting the mayor from the gallery so he rushed the audience like a line backer.. during his rush, he plowed over a frail old lady consular who tried to stop him LMAO..
> is she really that dumb? he has two body guards plus his bro..


Looks like he picked her up. He's a hero!


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> yeah dumb lady, let's herself get pushed a couple feet from some big jerk, she should really think twice for standing somewhere eh?
> 
> She didn't 'try to stop him', sh was in the way, and in true Ford fashion he shoved her anyway. Filthy waste of skin pushes a woman like that.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1dJeMtb08
> 
> oh.
> http://gamereax.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/fordcouncilmeeting.gif
> 
> Ford nation, must be proud.


disagree, she had time to move.. 
Iook at the video again.. LOL
also he did catch her and pick her up too..
looks like she said sorry too LMAO

he could of not..


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> disagree, she had time to move..
> Iook at the video again.. LOL
> also he did catch her and pick her up too..
> 
> he could of not..


no she didn't, clearly Ford not only ran right into her, -knowingly-, and continued to shove her out of the way. He only grabbed her because he knew it'd look even worse of she actually fell down.

What kind of a jerk shoves a woman like that, and what's more, who would even defend such a thing?

Yeah.


----------



## Sonal

That "old lady" is Councillor Pam McConnell.

And it took 3 requests from Cllr Fletcher before Ford apologized for knocking her over.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Looks like he picked her up. He's a hero!


I don't see him as a "hero", but I think that he accidently bumper her and then held her to prevent her from falling. She seems to try to calm him at the end.

I still feel that the council should do the legal way of getting him out of office -- a council that resigns en masse, and thus, no quorum for 60 days, necessitates that all seats are vacant and a new election needs to be held. Let the voters have their say as to whether he should stay or go.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> no she didn't, clearly Ford not only ran right into her, -knowingly-, and continued to shove her out of the way. He only grabbed her because he knew it'd look even worse of she actually fell down.
> 
> What kind of a jerk shoves a woman like that, and what's more, who would even defend such a thing?
> 
> Yeah.


spoken like a true NDP supporter LOL.. [ all the drama of he threw like a football and then trampled her and then kept going LOL - not what happened.. ]
he never once shoved her out of the way.. the whole time he had her in her grasp..


----------



## i-rui

He didn't "trample" her, but he did knock her over while being a jackass.


----------



## groovetube

I watched that video several times, there was nothing 'accidental' about it. He was going to go where he wanted and if she got in his way too bad.

But that just shows his attitude, and his anger. Any normal person would have stopped shoving like that.



i-rui said:


> He didn't "trample" her, but he did knock her over while being a jackass.


That's the polite version. He didn't trample her no. But shoving her out of his way, definitely.

So nice of him to make sure she didn't fall right over.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> spoken like a true NDP supporter LOL.. [ all the drama of he threw like a football and then trampled her and then kept going LOL - not what happened.. ]
> he never once shoved her out of the way.. the whole time he had her in her grasp..


 I don't care if if he held her from falling while he pushed her out of his way, or not. You can justify shoving a woman if you like, but I won't.

If that makes me an "NDP supporter" then I'll wear that with pride then.


----------



## Macfury

At last it comes out. NDP to the bone.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> I don't care if if he held her from falling while he pushed her out of his way, or not. You can justify shoving a woman if you like, but I won't.
> 
> If that makes me an "NDP supporter" then I'll wear that with pride then.


and there you have it..  - the truth is out... [also a few consulars are worried they are breaking the law too, plus concerns they are getting nasty letters from voters too, by behaving like communistic/ndp way of things ]

the fact is there was nothing to do with being a woman or not.. he choose a path and she happened to get in the way.. nothing to do with justification..


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> and there you have it..  - the truth is out... [also a few consulars are worried they are breaking the law too, plus concerns they are getting nasty letters from voters too, by behaving like communistic/ndp way of things ]
> 
> the fact is there was nothing to do with being a woman or not.. he choose a path and she happened to get in the way.. nothing to do with justification..


There won;t be any relenting until all of Toronto agrees that Rob Ford chose to knock over the woman deliberately.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> and there you have it..  - the truth is out...
> 
> the fact is there was nothing to do with being a woman or not.. he choose a path and she happened to get in the way.. nothing to do with justification..


For the record I don't support either party(s) consistently. And I'd be interested in what that actually has to do with Ford being an obnoxious bully, with the manners of a moron here.

As I said, I'm just so glad he was nice enough to make sure she didn't fall over and sustain an injury, you know while he shoved her out of his way.

It isn't too much to ask, I think, that a mayor is not only smart with our city resources, but also understands what being mayor actually means, and isn't a complete embarrassment to our city.

The fact that people didn't like Miller, (and attribute all sorts of myths and made up stories to him) or another candidate, does not mean we have to continue with this buffoon. I think we all get that everyone wants a fiscally responsible mayor, and I don't think too many people disagree with that, (if your IQ is above say, a gnat) but surely there is better than this.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> There won;t be any relenting until all of Toronto agrees that Rob Ford chose to knock over the woman deliberately.


won't surprise me that the consular shows up to work with a neck brace and crutches.. LOL
files a claim for 'dangerous work conditions' it would be the correct NDP thing to do.


----------



## groovetube

I'll guess that the "consular" doesn't.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> At last it comes out. NDP to the bone.


Check the avatar. Did you expect different from groovetom? :lmao:


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> I'll guess that the "consular" doesn't.


I will be filing a grievance with apple for pain and suffering of auto correct. LOL


----------



## Sonal

macintosh doctor said:


> won't surprise me that the consular shows up to work with a neck brace and crutches.. LOL
> files a claim for 'dangerous work conditions' it would be the correct NDP thing to do.


You didn't even know the councillor's name, let alone her political leanings and behaviours.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> I will be filing a grievance with apple for pain and suffering of auto correct. LOL


I think they would have that box overflowing by now.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> You didn't even know the councillor's name, let alone her political leanings and behaviours.


I think by this point, the entire city council is being branded "NDP".

It's some sort of hissing sound that follows, it seems like it's a dirty word to them I guess.

If it makes them feel better about their lot, I say 'you go girl' to them! 

If being "NDP" means less drinking and driving, less crack smoking, prostitutes, and and dealing with gang bangers, well sure thing then! NDP it is. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Check the avatar. Did you expect different from groovetom? :lmao:


I'll just record it here for reference purposes:


----------



## macintosh doctor

Sonal said:


> You didn't even know the councillor's name, let alone her political leanings and behaviours.


Councillor Pam McConnell - Council Members - Members of Council and Wards | City of Toronto

- not sure of her affiliation - I have created a google email alert..
will advise once it has been answered.


----------



## Sonal

macintosh doctor said:


> Councillor Pam McConnell - Council Members - Members of Council and Wards | City of Toronto
> 
> - not sure of her affiliation - I have created a google email alert..
> will advise once it has been answered.


Okay. But to update you on the situation so far, she's been icing her lip since, as it has swelled, though after Mayor Ford finally apologized he gave her a hug.


----------



## mrjimmy

Man, you think Toronto City Council is dysfunctional, welcome to ehMac....


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> You didn't even know the councillor's name, let alone her political leanings and behaviours.


Sonal, as a woman, how do you feel about people using the phrase: "You go, girl" as a pejorative to insult men?


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> I think by this point, the entire city council is being branded "NDP".
> 
> It's some sort of hissing sound that follows, it seems like it's a dirty word to them I guess.
> 
> If it makes them feel better about their lot, I say 'you go girl' to them!
> 
> If being "NDP" means less drinking and driving, less crack smoking, prostitutes, and and dealing with gang bangers, well sure thing then! NDP it is. :lmao:


well when you behave like communists and remove people from power when you have no authority too.. then NDP is dangerously over stepping their powers of the voters..

they all need to step down on mass and let the people decide.. that is the correct method..
Nor SHOULD A STEALING PROVINCIAL LIBERAL [NDP BACKED] GOVERNMENT BE ALLOWED TO SAY ANYTHING..
as the saying is 'he / she who has not sinned cast the fist stone' and let me TELL you.. after stealing $1.1Billion Kathleen should step down too..

you use seem to forget about that NDP federal rep in Quebec who was in Vegas getting blitzed during her win in Quebec. LOL


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford scandal is rubbing off on Stephen Harper, Thomas Mulcair says: ‘They

Mulcair keeps hammering this at Harper, and well he should, but the damage isn't going to be his base, since, from what I'm seeing, it seems like a lot of them are totally cool with Ford drinking and driving smoking crack and the whole rest of the story. 

Bu the swing vote, which I believe is really quite significant, hangs in the balance here. I doubt somehow that Mulcair would benefit much from that, but the Liberals would.

But seeing top Tories just squirming over being questioned on what they think regarding Ford's actions, is quite entertaining though


----------



## SINC

macintosh doctor said:


> you use seem to forget about that NDP federal rep in Quebec who was in Vegas getting blitzed during her win in Quebec. LOL


Not to mention Jack Layton's little tryst in the massage parlour! :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> well when you behave like communists and remove people from power when you have no authority too.. then NDP is dangerously over stepping their powers of the voters..
> 
> they all need to step down on mass and let the people decide.. that is the correct method..
> Nor SHOULD A STEALING PROVINCIAL LIBERAL [NDP BACKED] GOVERNMENT BE ALLOWED TO SAY ANYTHING..
> as the saying is 'he / she who has not sinned cast the fist stone' and let me TELL you.. after stealing $1.1Billion Kathleen should step down too..
> 
> you use seem to forget about that NDP federal rep in Quebec who was in Vegas getting blitzed during her win in Quebec. LOL


You seem to forget that each one of these councillors, were also democratically elected to represent the people in their ward.

And, people elected Ford -before- they knew about his mind glowingly disgusting habits. 

Best case scenario, Ford does the right thing, and steps away until the next election. Fine, let the voters decide then if they want to keep him. But Ford isn't going to do the right thing, and I think it 's pretty obvious this entire scandal has taken front row to a lot of important city business. So he has forced council's hand in trying to put city business back on track.

Not the other way around. One key thing to remember here, this was Ford's doing, not the *cough* NDP...


----------



## macintosh doctor

well we have choices there too.. A POT smoking liberal that supports mass murdering Chinese Communists LOL.. or NDP - which there is not much to say.. LOL


delusional much??


groovetube said:


> Not the other way around. One key thing to remember here, this was Ford's doing, not the *cough* NDP...


delusional much??
they could of excepted his apology and moved on..


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> well we have choices there too.. *A POT smoking liberal that supports mass murdering Chinese Communists LOL.*. or NDP - which there is not much to say.. LOL


if that's the case then I'd be careful what you write then. Because they will eventually get into power.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> well we have choices there too.. A POT smoking liberal that supports mass murdering Chinese Communists LOL.. or NDP - which there is not much to say.. LOL
> 
> 
> delusional much??
> 
> 
> delusional much??
> they could of excepted his apology and moved on..


yes, because an apology has always meant Ford stopped his behaviour in the past... :lmao:


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> if that's the case then I'd be careful what you write then. Because they will eventually get into power.


sadly the circle of 'lets try something else' theory will always happen.


----------



## groovetube

yes we're currently seeing that failure happening right now in Ottawa.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> yes we're currently seeing that failure happening right now in Ottawa.


Like American poultices we have the same issues, liberals and conservatives as our only choices. But with separatists and socialists thrown in for entertainment value. 
That's where you and I will ever agree.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> Like American poultices we have the same issues, liberals and conservatives as our only choices. But with separatists and socialists thrown in for entertainment value.
> That's where you and I will ever agree.


Sounds like you and few others need to figure out what Socialism really is.

It makes me laugh pretty hard when people toss that around.


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> Sounds like you and few others need to figure out what Socialism really is.
> 
> It makes me laugh pretty hard when people toss that around.


In canada - it means support the unions and keep paying them to do less and support their higer wages for no reason nor logic compared to private work force. 
Remember Rae days ? Or has that slipped your mind or mayor miller?


----------



## groovetube

yeah that's kinda what I thought.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You go *******.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Sonal, as a woman, how do you feel about people using the phrase: "You go, girl" as a pejorative to insult men?


What does my being female have to do with this? If you think it's sexist or inappropriate, YOU call it out. It would be a refreshing change.

(Frankly, after the last time, I'm not willing to engage in this type of discussion with most of the people on this board.)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> What does my being female have to do with this? If you think it's sexist or inappropriate, YOU call it out. It would be a refreshing change.


I think it's deplorable.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Makin friends.


----------



## CubaMark

*Has this been confirmed?*

*Rob Ford gives staff $5,000 taxpayer dollars each to stay on*

_Sources confirmed to the Toronto Sun that Ford gave every member of his mayor’s office staff $5,000 raises on Friday before council stripped him of his powers.

It’s a surprising taxpayer-funded pay hike given Ford’s penny-pinching persona_​
(TorontoSun via BoingBoing)


----------



## macintosh doctor

CubaMark said:


> *Has this been confirmed?*
> 
> *Rob Ford gives staff $5,000 taxpayer dollars each to stay on*
> 
> _Sources confirmed to the Toronto Sun that Ford gave every member of his mayor’s office staff $5,000 raises on Friday before council stripped him of his powers.
> 
> It’s a surprising taxpayer-funded pay hike given Ford’s penny-pinching persona_​
> (TorontoSun via BoingBoing)


are you seriously - asking ehmac to confirm news on this topic? after the heated exchange :lmao:
seriously ?!? google toronto star.. they seem be everything Rob Ford LOL


----------



## Sonal

CubaMark said:


> *Has this been confirmed?*
> 
> *Rob Ford gives staff $5,000 taxpayer dollars each to stay on*
> 
> _Sources confirmed to the Toronto Sun that Ford gave every member of his mayor’s office staff $5,000 raises on Friday before council stripped him of his powers.
> 
> It’s a surprising taxpayer-funded pay hike given Ford’s penny-pinching persona_​
> (TorontoSun via BoingBoing)


Don Peat is a very good reporter, and so I'd trust that.

In any case, sources confirmed the same to the Globe and Mail.


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> *Has this been confirmed?*
> 
> *Rob Ford gives staff $5,000 taxpayer dollars each to stay on*
> 
> _Sources confirmed to the Toronto Sun that Ford gave every member of his mayor’s office staff $5,000 raises on Friday before council stripped him of his powers.
> 
> It’s a surprising taxpayer-funded pay hike given Ford’s penny-pinching persona_​
> (TorontoSun via BoingBoing)


What happened to his pledge to "end the gravy train"???


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> What happened to his pledge to "end the gravy train"???


There was a reporter in the City Hall cafeteria today who discovered there was no gravy for his chicken dinner.
https://twitter.com/ivortossell/status/402573624478949376


----------



## Dr.G.

The coach of the Toronto Argos should hire Mayor Ford for their team next year ............. as an interior offensive lineman (e.g., center, tackle or guard). They way he plowed down that councilwoman, imagine what he could do to protect the blind side of his quarterback? Just a thought.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> There was a reporter in the City Hall cafeteria today who discovered there was no gravy for his chicken dinner.
> https://twitter.com/ivortossell/status/402573624478949376


Well, at least the Mayor kept his word on this count.


----------



## groovetube

Indeed, just as he was a man if his word when he apologized for his drunken violent behaviour at the ACC, and promised it would never happen again.

At the ACC anyway


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> *Has this been confirmed?*
> 
> *Rob Ford gives staff $5,000 taxpayer dollars each to stay on*
> 
> _Sources confirmed to the Toronto Sun that Ford gave every member of his mayor’s office staff $5,000 raises on Friday before council stripped him of his powers.
> 
> It’s a surprising taxpayer-funded pay hike given Ford’s penny-pinching persona_​
> (TorontoSun via BoingBoing)


I saw this a few days ago. It got lost in amongst the melee. It just never ends does it!

Stop the gravy train, except of course when they want to spend it on rewarding their friends with 6 figure non jobs and bonuses for loyalty to the ford cause.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> What does my being female have to do with this? If you think it's sexist or inappropriate, YOU call it out. It would be a refreshing change.
> 
> (Frankly, after the last time, I'm not willing to engage in this type of discussion with most of the people on this board.)


My reference certainly had little to do with women, it's a common thing in certain circles, and seemed right for the moment 

While I couldn't give a rats behind what that poster thinks. If you or another woman here were uncomfortable with it, I'd apologize, edit, and not use it again. 

Without the sort of circus I recently saw.


----------



## Macfury

It can't be tossed away with a wink and a cheap smiley.


----------



## SINC

Macfury said:


> It can't be tossed away with a wink and a cheap smiley.


A 'self-righteous, not me, I'm pure, always right attitude' might inflate the ego so much it will float off above the board. Oh, wait . . .


----------



## groovetube

Prime Minister's Office calls Rob Ford allegations 'troubling,' attacks Trudeau | CTV News

Bu-bu-bu-but Trudeau!


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> Prime Minister's Office calls Rob Ford allegations 'troubling,' attacks Trudeau | CTV News
> 
> Bu-bu-bu-but Trudeau!


Yeah I saw the same thing earlier. Such a classless thing to do. It took them forever to comment on Ford and when they do it seems the only reason was to take a shot at Trudeau.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Yeah I saw the same thing earlier. Such a classless thing to do. It took them forever to comment on Ford and when they do it seems the only reason was to take a shot at Trudeau.


How about a dose of reality? They're not running against Ford!


----------



## rondini

Reminds me of the Repub Bush defenders in the USA from a while back.
Bu-bu-bu- but Clinton!


----------



## CubaMark

*OMG! He did it! He played the Jesus card! The Conservatives have no choice now - they must embrace him or defy the Lord! *

*Rob Ford says he's quit drinking, has had 'come-to-Jesus' moment*

_In an interview with CBC News on Monday, Toronto Mayor Rob Ford said he's had a kind of "come-to-Jesus" moment and said he's "finished" with alcohol and doesn't do drugs.

Ford made the comments in an interview with CBC News chief correspondent Peter Mansbridge shortly after council voted overwhelmingly to slash his office budget and strip him of powers in the wake of a drug-use scandal._​


(CBC)


----------



## Dr.G.

CM, while I did not have a similar "Come to Jesus" moment, he has inspired me to start to lose some weight. I am certainly not a member of the Ford Nation, but it was an honest interview, to a point. I hope that in five months he does lose all the weight he is aiming for, as well as remain free of alcohol. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## fjnmusic

The man is ill and needs to take some time off before he does something he will REALLY regret. He effectively has no power now and he's not a very good figurehead either. He appears to be incapable of reading the writing on the wall, even if it's written in capital letters ten feet tall. The only honorable thing to do is resign or at least go on sick leave. Ralph Klein pulled all kinds of crap too, including throwing money at homeless people while drunk in the wee hours, but he had a certain charisma that allowed him to bounce back. Mr. Ford does not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mrjimmy

Dr.G. said:


> CM, while I did not have a similar "Come to Jesus" moment, he has inspired me to start to lose some weight. I am certainly not a member of the Ford Nation, but it was an honest interview, to a point. I hope that in five months he does lose all the weight he is aiming for, as well as remain free of alcohol. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Dr.G., with all due respect, as P.T. Barnum famously said...

Here are a few more of the brothers 'truths'.

A reality check on the Fords’ pants-on-fire U.S. media blitz | Toronto Star

Another (in)famous quote:

'If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.'


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Video: Toronto Mayor Rob Ford pantomimes drunk driving during City Council - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Dr.G.

mrjimmy said:


> Dr.G., with all due respect, as P.T. Barnum famously said...
> 
> Here are a few more of the brothers 'truths'.
> 
> A reality check on the Fords’ pants-on-fire U.S. media blitz | Toronto Star
> 
> Another (in)famous quote:
> 
> 'If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.'


Well, I wish Mayor Ford well in his weight loss. I would love to be able to say I was down 30 pounds in five months. We shall see how each of us is successful in this battle.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> CM, while I did not have a similar "Come to Jesus" moment, he has inspired me to start to lose some weight. I am certainly not a member of the Ford Nation, but it was an honest interview, to a point. I hope that in five months he does lose all the weight he is aiming for, as well as remain free of alcohol. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


The fact that Ford constantly flips this around to I just need to lose a few pounds whenever he's asked about his smoking crack or driving while drunk just shows the denial. 

Being overweight has absolutely nothing to do with any of Ford's issues. Whatsoever. Your struggles with extra pounds G is one shared by so many, regardless of political stripe, I struggle and work very hard to keep the pounds off because if I don't, within months I start packing it on just like anyone else in my age group often will. It's so easy to given food choices, and our lifestyles, especially if your job involves more sitting than moving around.

I saw that same interview, and while it may have contained a little less of the total nonsense he spews, it's still quite delusional. He has been held up by the right as some kind of poster boy of fiscal conservatism, a champion of those against the "elites", a new evil class created by ford nation as a enemy to fight.

I apparently, am one of those "elites". The thing is, I really dislike lattes, but as you know, I like to use a good coffee bean, and grind it fresh in the morning and use a bodum, I think that somehow must mean I am guilty of something here. I am one of those much vaulted taxpayers that the Ford brothers boast about, and boy do I pay enough of those. I own a detached house and my property taxes are high. I also own a business downtown, and pay even more on the lease agreement I have, (just renegotiating another now possibly...) I create good paying jobs, and there is no union in my business. I feel rather conflicted now...

Last night my wife reminded me, that I am in fact in a union. (this may cause certain quarters to lose their lunch, but that may be entertaining...) I had completely forgotten about this. The musician's union! Every 3 months, I pay the fees on my credit card, because I have to. I joined because it was the only way to be able to negotiate work visas to play in the US. You also must be a member to play on certain TV shows and radio performances, at one point I have suspended my membership since I hadn't needed work visas for a few years, and had to quickly reinstate because I had a string of TV I had to do. I don't really resent the musician's association for this since they do do a lot of work on behalf of musicians for visas and appearances, and they don't seem to be anything like the auto unions I read about. They're a pretty low key slim operation.

So, there you have it. I grind my own coffee, and had to pay union dues in order to do certain appearances, and I also pay more than the average joe for my haircuts. I'm pretty sure this makes me an enemy of the state, and also must mean I'm somehow "on the take" or really want to pay way more taxes so some city councillor can spend it up.

I have often seen threats of "I can take that line by line", only to really never see it, here's one on Ford's record:
Deconstructing Mayor Rob Ford's fiscal record | Toronto Star

It's really quite sad when you look at the bigger picture. The fact that we have to put up with the drunken crack smoking hug-a-thug... thug, just to realize a sad level of fiscal conservatism with no real vision for this great city, is really, really depressing.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> *OMG! He did it! He played the Jesus card! The Conservatives have no choice now - they must embrace him or defy the Lord! *
> 
> *Rob Ford says he's quit drinking, has had 'come-to-Jesus' moment*
> 
> _In an interview with CBC News on Monday, Toronto Mayor Rob Ford said he's had a kind of "come-to-Jesus" moment and said he's "finished" with alcohol and doesn't do drugs.
> 
> Ford made the comments in an interview with CBC News chief correspondent Peter Mansbridge shortly after council voted overwhelmingly to slash his office budget and strip him of powers in the wake of a drug-use scandal._​
> 
> 
> (CBC)


Apparently, now he's "Kuwait"! :lmao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cyammx-5sY

The threats just keep comin...


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

This one's good too.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHMDQcTdbHU[/ame]


----------



## groovetube

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

I notice that someone here has laughed at Mayor Ford's apologies and calls him a sexist blowhard--while demeaning women in this thread himself without apology. On behalf of EhMac, I am formally requesting an apology for these sexist comments, so at the very minimum, this person can rise to the level of Mayor Ford.


----------



## macintosh doctor

CubaMark said:


> *OMG! He did it! He played the Jesus card! The Conservatives have no choice now - they must embrace him or defy the Lord! *


It was a eureka moment, not that he said he was Jesus. 
So he said Jesus, big deal. Makes him human 

MEAN WHILE IN CHINA - Olivia Chow is worried about what the murdering communist are saying about our democracy.. 
seriously ??!!!

a socialist worried about what communists think about us???


----------



## groovetube

Phew. For a while there I wasn't sure if he was a human or something else!

If you are so disgusted by China's 'murderous dictatorship', I guess you have grave concerns about Harper's trade junkets to said murderous dictatorship.


----------



## mrjimmy

Andrew Coyne: Rob Ford doesn’t need to hear ‘get help.’ He needs to hear ‘get out’ | National Post



> ..it is time to put aside the therapeutic language, the Oprah-like pleas to the mayor to “get help” or “seek treatment.” We are long past that point. The mayor’s actions Monday were quite deliberate. They reflected the influence, not of intoxicants, but his own limitless ego and unformed character. As such it is not Ford who has the problem; it’s the city. The message he needs to hear, from every corner, is not get help, but get out.


----------



## macintosh doctor

this video explains when a conservative deals with a socialist..
Don't Argue With Idiots


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> this video explains when a conservative deals with a socialist..
> Don't Argue With Idiots


that's your answer to the taxpayer funded junkets to the 'murderous dictators'? :lmao:

Guess it stung.


----------



## SINC

A guy traveling through the USA on vacation lost his wallet and all of his identification. Cutting his trip short, he attempted to make his way home but was stopped by the Canadian Customs Agent at the border. 

"May I see your identification, please?" asked the agent.

"I'm sorry, but I lost my wallet," replied the guy.

"Sure buddy, I hear that every day. No ID, no entry," said the agent.

"But I can prove I'm a Canadian!" he exclaimed."I have a picture of Celine Dion tattooed on one side of my butt and Shania Twain on the other." 

"This I got to see," replied the agent.

With that, the guy dropped his pants and showed the agent his behind.

"By golly, you're right!" exclaimed the agent."Have a safe trip back to Toronto. "

Thanks!" he said. "But how did you know I was from Toronto?"

The agent replied, "I recognized Rob Ford in the middle."

:lmao:


----------



## whatiwant

SINC said:


> A guy traveling through the USA on vacation lost his wallet and all of his identification. Cutting his trip short, he attempted to make his way home but was stopped by the Canadian Customs Agent at the border.
> 
> "May I see your identification, please?" asked the agent.
> 
> "I'm sorry, but I lost my wallet," replied the guy.
> 
> "Sure buddy, I hear that every day. No ID, no entry," said the agent.
> 
> "But I can prove I'm a Canadian!" he exclaimed."I have a picture of Celine Dion tattooed on one side of my butt and Shania Twain on the other."
> 
> "This I got to see," replied the agent.
> 
> With that, the guy dropped his pants and showed the agent his behind.
> 
> "By golly, you're right!" exclaimed the agent."Have a safe trip back to Toronto. "
> 
> Thanks!" he said. "But how did you know I was from Toronto?"
> 
> The agent replied, "I recognized Rob Ford in the middle."
> 
> :lmao:


That's actually pretty funny


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> that's your answer to the taxpayer funded junkets to the 'murderous dictators'? :lmao:
> 
> Guess it stung.


nothing to do with that..
more to do with repetition that socialists pick a topic and beat to death until they think they proved a point. 
[kinda like what your doing now. ]


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> nothing to do with that..
> more to do with repetition that socialists pick a topic and beat to death until they think they proved a point.
> [kinda like what your doing now. ]


I wasn't the one repeatedly slamming 'socialists' with concern for the 'murderous dictators'.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> I wasn't the one repeatedly slamming 'socialists' with concern for the 'murderous dictators'.


No, but you are the one repeatedly slamming another for his views. Pot meet kettle.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> No, but you are the one repeatedly slamming another for his views. Pot meet kettle.


As if though a proud Mulcair supporter would be slamming socialists!


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> I wasn't the one repeatedly slamming 'socialists' with concern for the 'murderous dictators'.


question, how is your new 'website' anti ehMac competitor site doing? can't be doing that well if you have the need & time to hang around here slamming me for my conservative views. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> question, how is your new 'website' anti ehMac competitor site doing? can't be doing that well if you have the need & time to hang around here slamming me for my conservative views. :lmao:


hey I wasn't the one whining. 

I love how cons here get their panties in a bunch when some of their views are countered.

try to keep it on topic, not everyone can it seems, but perhaps you can buck the trend amongst the couple usuals who are obviously looking for a fight to jump on K?


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> question, how is your new 'website' anti ehMac competitor site doing? can't be doing that well if you have the need & time to hang around here slamming me for my conservative views. :lmao:


It's sinking like a stone thanks very much! But after mismanaging MacMagic, the job will not be complete until EhMac is brought down to the same level.


----------



## groovetube

oh here goes another thread derail.

Note the players.

Be back later when it gets back on track.


----------



## mrjimmy

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






You've got to give Mansbridge credit for attempting to be fair with these bozos. Matt wasn't as interested in entertaining their robo-rhetoric.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've got to give Mansbridge credit for attempting to be fair with these bozos. Matt wasn't as interested in entertaining their robo-rhetoric.


yes he did. For all the bashing of him (and the CBC) it wasn't the shellacking they could have gotten (and probably deserve).


----------



## SINC

Yep, 'bout right . . .


----------



## i-rui

Awesome, Ford Nation memes!


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> Awesome, Ford Nation memes!


Yes because we all know drinking/driving hanging with gang bangers buying dope smoking crack and doin lines in restaurants, is pretty much the same as having a few puffs of pot in your home with friends!

And we wonder why the war on drugs is such a failure!


----------



## CubaMark

Well, there goes Macintosh Doctor and MacFury, attempting to derail the thread by going after GrooveTube's non-ehMac activities.

Will they apologize for the thread derail attempt?

My money's on... _not._


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Yep, 'bout right . . .


Sure, but one of them promises to spend a lot more money on hand-outs, so Trudeau Claus gets a free pass.


----------



## CubaMark

Seriously, MF? A *crack cocaine*-using, alcoholic, drunk-driving, and who the hell knows what-else character like Ford is worse in your mind than a guy who admits to smoking a little bit of *marijuana* and who raises the possibility of opening the door to a conversation on marijuana decriminalization - something a significant portion of Canadians appear to agree with.

Man, the rose-coloured glasses are polarized as well...

Back to the main event here. *Rob Ford*. Looks like he's no longer embarrassed by his incredibly vulgar comments of last week:

Rob Ford Laughs At Jon Stewart's Reaction To Crude Remarks (VIDEO)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> Seriously, MF? A *crack cocaine*-using, alcoholic, drunk-driving, and who the hell knows what-else character like Ford is worse in your mind than a guy who admits to smoking a little bit of *marijuana* and who raises the possibility of opening the door to a conversation on marijuana decriminalization - something a significant portion of Canadians appear to agree with.


I support decriminalization of all drugs. However, as SINC's graphic points out, the media was asking Ford to resign over the drug use alone, and encouraging JT to run regardless. I say, let's avoid a replay of this Ford business by having a consistent media focus on admitted drug use.


----------



## fjnmusic

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Video: Toronto Mayor Rob Ford pantomimes drunk driving during City Council - The Globe and Mail


This was the biggest Chris Farley moment yet as far as I could tell. The difference is, Chris was an actor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> Seriously, MF? A *crack cocaine*-using, alcoholic, drunk-driving, and who the hell knows what-else character like Ford is worse in your mind than a guy who admits to smoking a little bit of *marijuana* and who raises the possibility of opening the door to a conversation on marijuana decriminalization - something a significant portion of Canadians appear to agree with.
> 
> Man, the rose-coloured glasses are polarized as well...
> 
> Back to the main event here. *Rob Ford*. Looks like he's no longer embarrassed by his incredibly vulgar comments of last week:
> 
> Rob Ford Laughs At Jon Stewart's Reaction To Crude Remarks (VIDEO)


I think the level of embarrassment for the right having one of their prolific own go down in flames in such an incredibly classless mess of gangs, crack, and all the rest of it, is just too much. I'm not going to pretend it has much to do with his politic of the right, but it's particularly embarrassing for groups that speak out so intensely against gangs and hard drugs such as crack. 

So, the attempts at linking Trudeau, whom they so desperately want to be the problem, not rob ford, start. It is surprising though, to see anyone smarter than the ford nation thugs actually fall for it, or even try.

But it's all about the pride. This just has to sting.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I support decriminalization of all drugs. However, as SINC's graphic points out, the media was asking Ford to resign over the drug use alone, and encouraging JT to run regardless. I say, let's avoid a replay of this Ford business by having a consistent media focus on admitted drug use.


SINC's graphic represents the situation inaccurately. 

The media is asking Ford to resign over the blatant lying, the consorting with criminals and concerns about possible links to the murder of Anthony Smith, and the general mayhem his antics have caused and continue to cause.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> SINC's graphic represents the situation inaccurately.
> 
> The media is asking Ford to resign over the blatant lying, the consorting with criminals and concerns about possible links to the murder of Anthony Smith, and the general mayhem his antics have caused and continue to cause.


I suspect they're smart enough to know that.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> SINC's graphic represents the situation inaccurately.
> 
> The media is asking Ford to resign over the blatant lying, the consorting with criminals and concerns about possible links to the murder of Anthony Smith, and the general mayhem his antics have caused and continue to cause.


Some of them were asking him to resign just over drug use alone.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Some of them were asking him to resign just over drug use alone.


Not that I've seen, and I gather my Rob Ford news from multiple sources.... mind, I can't account for where you might get your news.


----------



## macintosh doctor

SINC said:


> Yep, 'bout right . . .


But Trudeau supports and looks up to murdering communists. 
Maybe trying to date Olivia chow LOL


----------



## i-rui

so in one of yesterday's interviews Ford said he hadn't done any drugs in the last year. pretty sure February is less than a year ago...

Rob Ford: ‘Narcotic’ video made in February, police say | Toronto Star

add it the the very long list of RoFo lies...


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> so in one of yesterday's interviews Ford said he hadn't done any drugs in the last year. pretty sure February is less than a year ago...
> 
> Rob Ford: ‘Narcotic’ video made in February, police say | Toronto Star
> 
> add it the the very long list of RoFo lies...


Rob Ford has pretty much lied about every allegation brought against him. His credibility is completely gone. But then, many of the addicts I knew, pretty much exhibited the same behaviour. They can't help it, unless they go, and -get help-.

Anyway, I heard on the news just now, that Jason Kenny is calling for Rob Ford to resign.


----------



## i-rui

Sun News kills Ford Nation TV show after one episode - The Globe and Mail

sun news cancels the ford nation show less than 24 hours after it airs.

lol


----------



## groovetube

wow. Now that's a kick in the wahzoo.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> wow. Now that's a kick in* the wahzoo.*


I thought more appropriately it would be a kick in the "peek-a-boo" .

"peek-a-boo" is indeed kind of like the Liberal/NDP policy/handbook.

Sorry. You created the graphic, the irony seemed to escape you...


----------



## groovetube

what?


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

You go ********.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> what?


*.*


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

U go redneks


----------



## screature

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> You go ********.


You go bleeding hearts... see how that works.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> *.*


Oh I get it. "wahzoo" rhymes with "peek-a-boo". Sorta.

Clever!


----------



## mrjimmy

...........hic...


----------



## BigDL

CubaMark said:


> *OMG! He did it! He played the Jesus card! The Conservatives have no choice now - they must embrace him or defy the Lord! *
> 
> *Rob Ford says he's quit drinking, has had 'come-to-Jesus' moment*
> 
> _In an interview with CBC News on Monday, Toronto Mayor Rob Ford said he's had a kind of "come-to-Jesus" moment and said he's "finished" with alcohol and doesn't do drugs.
> 
> Ford made the comments in an interview with CBC News chief correspondent Peter Mansbridge shortly after council voted overwhelmingly to slash his office budget and strip him of powers in the wake of a drug-use scandal._​
> 
> 
> (CBC)





mrjimmy said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've got to give Mansbridge credit for attempting to be fair with these bozos. Matt wasn't as interested in entertaining their robo-rhetoric.





groovetube said:


> Rob Ford has pretty much lied about every allegation brought against him. His credibility is completely gone. But then, many of the addicts I knew, pretty much exhibited the same behaviour. They can't help it, unless they go, and -get help-.
> 
> Anyway, I heard on the news just now, that Jason Kenny is calling for Rob Ford to resign.


Given Rob Ford's complete denial of any addiction(s) and has played the "played the Jesus card" then the 7 deadly sins are surely applicable. 

We then must conclude Mr. Ford does not have a disease to be treated then he must have personality faults.

He is a liar. A critical review of his statements bears this out.

He is a glutton. For food, booze, drugs, punishment.

He is too proud to accept his responsibility.

Care to wade in on any other deadly sin(s) I may have missed.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Maybe he'll follow ORAL Roberts.


----------



## mrjimmy

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Maybe he'll follow ORAL Roberts.


Well he already has an oral fixation...


----------



## screature

mrjimmy said:


> ...........hic...


Have you been drinking...? It seems both you and gt may have been at early Christmas parties today.... I don't know, it just seems that way... 

What I find interesting is why don't the police release the video if it is so damning, and I am not saying it is not... I just wonder why?

Can anyone provide an explanation (and I mean this seriously) as I just don't quite get it... 

Other than that (perhaps they are not, but I suspect that they are) the police are extending their investigation due to Rob Ford's videotape that expresses he wants to kill someone and then someone died...

So because that someone died... who was connected to Ford? 

It would seem that the police are investigating Ford's connection to that death. Based on that presumption, it seems reasonable to me that is why the police would not release the video at this time...

I hope I am wrong... I really do, but Rob Ford may be way in over his head and so may be his brother.

I really hope that the connecting of dots that some are doing is not true, I really do, because it would be just so disappointing that anyone could stoop so low to cover their tracks as to "rub someone out".

I really hope there is a more innocuous explanation that accounts for everything.

I really do, for the residents of Toronto and for the Ford family... 

If there isn't... well... Then things have just begun.


----------



## groovetube

xmas party... we're talking about mayor ford, the topic of the thread. Despite several attempts to derail it that is...

Some of what you're saying is part of the story. The video is indeed not being released because it's apparently part of an upcoming court case, They tried to get it in court, and it was denied. Ford's best buddy is up on extortion charges. Yes, this can get really bad for Ford, but that remains to be seen. But, if you look at this reasonably, Ford is clearly the one that wanted this video off the streets, and here Ford's buddy, who 'owes him', is now charged with extortion. How obvious, is this???

There's much more to this whole thing, whether we'll ever know the full story, I don't know. But things down here are BAD. It has gone far beyond his politic, or any of his policies. His association with gangs, his HARD drug use/binge drinking (seemingly the smaller part of this...) and his credibility has made him pretty much unfit to lead right now. If ever.

He has lied about pretty much everything so far, so hearing him say he only smoked crack once over a year ago, can be pretty much taken with a grain of salt. They've already came out and said the video of him smoking crack, was less than a year ago...


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> xmas party... we're talking about mayor ford, the topic of the thread. Despite several attempts to derail it that is...
> 
> Some of what you're saying is part of the story. The video is indeed not being released because it's apparently part of an upcoming court case, They tried to get it in court, and it was denied. Ford's best buddy is up on extortion charges. Yes, this can get really bad for Ford, but that remains to be seen. But, if you look at this reasonably, Ford is clearly the one that wanted this video off the streets, and here Ford's buddy, who 'owes him', is now charged with extortion. How obvious, is this???
> 
> There's much more to this whole thing, whether we'll ever know the full story, I don't know. But things down here are BAD. It has gone far beyond his politic, or any of his policies. His association with gangs, his HARD drug use/binge drinking (seemingly the smaller part of this...) and his credibility has made him pretty much unfit to lead right now. If ever.
> 
> He has lied about pretty much everything so far, so hearing him say he only smoked crack once over a year ago, can be pretty much taken with a grain of salt. They've already came out and said the video of him smoking crack, was less than a year ago...


It was a joke gt, following from mrjimmy's all too obvious accusation of me drinking.

If you read my post again, without a rubber hammer being struck against your knee before you post simply because I made the former post, you will realize that I am not arguing with you but simply hoping it is not true because it would be so disappointing.


----------



## groovetube

And I wasn't arguing with you either. I'm not sure what the disconnect is there.

Just clarifying what I know.


----------



## i-rui

Yes there are many serious questions about Ford's links to the criminal element. Here's an interesting article on Peter Mansbridge's softball questions to Ford and what perhaps should've been asked:

Rob Ford’s unchecked lies to Peter Mansbridge | canada.com



> Later in the interview with Mansbridge, Rob Ford said he would not talk about his former part-time driver and friend Lisi, who is now facing extortion charges. Mansbridge gave him a pass on it.
> 
> “He’s in front of the courts right now and I’m not going to comment on Mr. Lisi,” Ford said.
> 
> “What about the police investigation?” Mansbridge then asked.
> 
> “My lawyer has advised me, do not be interviewed by the police,” Ford answered.
> 
> Then Mansbridge went back to soft questions about Toronto’s reputation.
> 
> Of course Ford would not talk about Lisi. Then he would have to answer why an accused felon is dropping packages into his car while he pretended not to notice. He might have to answer why he spoke to Lisi seven times when Anthony Smith was killed and again when the crack video was reported. He might have to answer questions about Lisi’s allegedly aggressive attempts (he is now being charged with extortion) to retrieve the crack video. He might have to actually steer from the narrative of victimhood.
> 
> Does the mayor know Anthony Smith? What was in the packages Lisi dropped into his car so secretively? Does the mayor still have connections with drug dealers? Did he pay the utility bills for a crack house? Did Lisi act on his orders or suggestions when he allegedly sought out the crack video? Do the mayor’s homophobic and racist remarks while under the influence reflect his true opinions?


----------



## macintosh doctor

i-rui said:


> Yes there are many serious questions about Ford's links to the criminal element. Here's an interesting article on Peter Mansbridge's softball questions to Ford and what perhaps should've been asked:
> 
> Rob Ford’s unchecked lies to Peter Mansbridge | canada.com


still better than Montreal if that is the case.. there they have 2 mayors in less than 4 months and all stole money and connected, not to mention GRAY TRAIN central!!!


----------



## i-rui

if murder is involved then you have a disturbing opinion of "better"


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Have you been drinking...? It seems both you and gt may have been at early Christmas parties today.... I don't know, it just seems that way...
> 
> What I find interesting is why don't the police release the video if it is so damning, and I am not saying it is not... I just wonder why?
> 
> Can anyone provide an explanation (and I mean this seriously) as I just don't quite get it...
> 
> Other than that (perhaps they are not, but I suspect that they are) the police are extending their investigation due to Rob Ford's videotape that expresses he wants to kill someone and then someone died...
> 
> So because that someone died... who was connected to Ford?
> 
> It would seem that the police are investigating Ford's connection to that death. Based on that presumption, it seems reasonable to me that is why the police would not release the video at this time...
> 
> I hope I am wrong... I really do, but Rob Ford may be way in over his head and so may be his brother.
> 
> I really hope that the connecting of dots that some are doing is not true, I really do, because it would be just so disappointing that anyone could stoop so low to cover their tracks as to "rub someone out".
> 
> I really hope there is a more innocuous explanation that accounts for everything.
> 
> I really do, for the residents of Toronto and for the Ford family...
> 
> If there isn't... well... Then things have just begun.


The more one digs into this, the less an innocuous explanation seems likely.

Given that this information about Mayor Ford (including the video) is part of an ITO from Project Traveller, and given that dozens of arrests were made in connection with Project Traveller, which have not yet gone to trial, it seems reasonable that not all the information--including the video--has been released.

That which has come out only did under court order, after the media made a legal challenge to release the information. The second round of information--yet another court order. The video itself has been reviewed by a judge, and some of the people who are supposedly in that video (they are in that famous crackhouse photo) have yet to stand trial, plus Sandro Lisi's extortion charge is allegedly related to the video... as such, it stands to reason that the release of this video might impact those criminal cases.

But at the same time... the house photographed is known to the police as a crackhouse (this is in the ITO) and is owned by a longtime friend of the Ford family. Kathy Ford is an admitted addict, was involved with former drug dealers and users which led to a violent confrontation. A convicted drug dealer (Kathy's ex) broke into the Ford's home and demanded money just last year. Randy Ford was convicted of kidnapping a known drug dealer. Rob Ford has written letters of recommendation for convicted drug dealers because they are personal friends.

Without connecting any dots, that's a highly unusual number of documented connections to drug dealers. 

As I said, it seems unlikely to be innocuous.


----------



## BigDL

groovetube said:


> ...There's much more to this whole thing, whether we'll ever know the full story, I don't know. But things down here are BAD. It has gone far beyond his politic, or any of his policies. His association with gangs, his HARD drug use/binge drinking (seemingly the smaller part of this...) and his credibility has made him pretty much unfit to lead right now. If ever.
> 
> He has lied about pretty much everything so far, so hearing him say he only smoked crack once over a year ago, can be pretty much taken with a grain of salt. They've already came out and said the video of him smoking crack, was less than a year ago...





Sonal said:


> The more one digs into this, the less an innocuous explanation seems likely.
> 
> Given that this information about Mayor Ford (including the video) is part of an ITO from Project Traveller, and given that dozens of arrests were made in connection with Project Traveller, which have not yet gone to trial, it seems reasonable that not all the information--including the video--has been released.
> 
> That which has come out only did under court order, after the media made a legal challenge to release the information. The second round of information--yet another court order. The video itself has been reviewed by a judge, and some of the people who are supposedly in that video (they are in that famous crackhouse photo) have yet to stand trial, plus Sandro Lisi's extortion charge is allegedly related to the video... as such, it stands to reason that the release of this video might impact those criminal cases.
> 
> But at the same time... the house photographed is known to the police as a crackhouse (this is in the ITO) and is owned by a longtime friend of the Ford family. Kathy Ford is an admitted addict, was involved with former drug dealers and users which led to a violent confrontation. A convicted drug dealer (Kathy's ex) broke into the Ford's home and demanded money just last year. Randy Ford was convicted of kidnapping a known drug dealer. Rob Ford has written letters of recommendation for convicted drug dealers because they are personal friends.
> 
> Without connecting any dots, that's a highly unusual number of documented connections to drug dealers.
> 
> As I said, it seems unlikely to be innocuous.


I have to wonder, how far up the food chain, are Rob Ford's acquaintances in the drug trade?

Did Rob Ford provide a full access pass to City resources for organized crime?

Given testimony from the Quebec's Commission of Inquiry of organized crime involvement with municipal government projects and the construction industry.

Testimony was given at the Quebec inquiry that Montreal was not the only large Canadian city that was infested with corruption from organized crime.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> The more one digs into this, the less an innocuous explanation seems likely.
> 
> Given that this information about Mayor Ford (including the video) is part of an ITO from Project Traveller, and given that dozens of arrests were made in connection with Project Traveller, which have not yet gone to trial, it seems reasonable that not all the information--including the video--has been released.
> 
> That which has come out only did under court order, after the media made a legal challenge to release the information. The second round of information--yet another court order. The video itself has been reviewed by a judge, and some of the people who are supposedly in that video (they are in that famous crackhouse photo) have yet to stand trial, plus Sandro Lisi's extortion charge is allegedly related to the video... as such, it stands to reason that the release of this video might impact those criminal cases.
> 
> But at the same time... the house photographed is known to the police as a crackhouse (this is in the ITO) and is owned by a longtime friend of the Ford family. Kathy Ford is an admitted addict, was involved with former drug dealers and users which led to a violent confrontation. A convicted drug dealer (Kathy's ex) broke into the Ford's home and demanded money just last year. Randy Ford was convicted of kidnapping a known drug dealer. Rob Ford has written letters of recommendation for convicted drug dealers because they are personal friends.
> 
> Without connecting any dots, that's a highly unusual number of documented connections to drug dealers.
> 
> As I said, it seems unlikely to be innocuous.


I really don't know the details of the case at all as I am only going by what I have read in the media in the last few weeks and Ford's own statements and behaviour and the fact that the police are not releasing the video. That is what led me to make my posts...

Pure speculation on my part, and I admit it and I still hope it isn't true. 

Not because I like Ford, I don't know him or his policies from Job, but for the people of TO and his family I would hope that murder is not involved, as I couldn't imagine it being much worse than that if it were the case...

Like I said a couple of posts ago (which were my first posts on the subject) I probably shouldn't be posting here as I don't live in TO and don't have all the facts (but then again I don't think the people living in TO do either)...

It was just a few thoughts that came to my mind due to recent events/findings...

Sorry to have offended those that are so much more in the know.


----------



## groovetube

I don't think anyone was offended screature. You're not far from Toronto.


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> ....I don't know him or his policies from Job, but for the people of TO and his family I would hope that murder is not involved, as I couldn't imagine it being much worse than that if it were the case...


Hey, even when I'm in Canada, I live half a country away from Toronto... and feel no compunction about posting here. This buffoon's behaviour is affecting Canada's image abroad, and thus is fair game for any Canadian to comment.

That said... what you note above is precisely why many of those who are not on the "right" find those who are on the "right" hypocritical. They are consistently "tough on crime" "three strikes you're out" "mandatory heavy sentences" for everyone until it affects someone they know or for whom they feel an affinity. 

How many people out there have suffered far more rapid and harsh "justice" simply because they were not white, did not have the personal / political connections, lived in a particular neighbourhood, etc., without receiving *any* of this leaning-over-backward sympathy trip that Ford has received?

And while you ponder that (though I doubt those of you who should, will), take the time to consider the extremes of this tough-on-crime policy as it manifests south of the border: Why Should Thousands of Prisoners Die Behind Bars for Nonviolent Crimes?. 

No thread derailment intended - but it is to the point of unequal "justice" and the privilege enjoyed by Rob Ford.


----------



## groovetube

I don't think anyone was offended screature. You're not far from Toronto.

Besides, I believe you guys had O'Brien. Another Ford, just sans the gang/crack etc.


----------



## Paddy

Even if you managed to ignore the lying, the drugs, the alcohol, the consorting with criminals, the ridiculous grandiose claims, his ludicrous behaviour during yesterday's City Council meeting was that of a 6-year-old with no impulse control. It was quite disturbing - and big brother Doug was no better. He was rude, disruptive and had absolutely no respect for the meeting in progress or his fellow councillors. I watched almost all of it - it just went from bad to worse. It was like watching a couple of out of control kindergarteners disrupt a business meeting being conducted by (mostly) adults.

A good portion of his behaviour is sociopathic. At the very least he's got some severe problems with immaturity and an out of control ego. Profile of the Sociopath



> Profile of the Sociopath
> 
> This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.
> 
> 
> Glibness and Superficial Charm
> 
> Manipulative and Conning
> They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
> 
> Grandiose Sense of Self
> Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
> 
> Pathological Lying
> Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
> 
> Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
> A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
> 
> Shallow Emotions
> When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
> 
> Incapacity for Love
> 
> Need for Stimulation
> Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
> 
> Callousness/Lack of Empathy
> Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
> 
> Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
> Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
> 
> Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
> Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
> 
> Irresponsibility/Unreliability
> Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
> 
> Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
> Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.
> 
> Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
> Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
> 
> Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
> Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.


I may not LIKE some of the members of council, but with a few notable exceptions, most of them conduct themselves like reasonably sane adults. Ford and his brother do not. They're disruptive, divisive and are doing absolutely NOTHING to move this city forward. I can only hope that the truth, whatever it is, comes out in the next few weeks/months and that they vanish from the political scene for good. Heck - even John Tory is looking mighty good to me right now, and I'm definitely no Conservative! I want to put a sign on my lawn that says "Anyone but Ford" - but then one does have to be careful about what one wishes for! (Just in case anyone in Montreal is thinking of sending a slightly used mayor in our direction!!!)


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Not because I like Ford, I don't know him or his policies from Job, but for the people of TO and his family I would hope that murder is not involved, as I couldn't imagine it being much worse than that if it were the case...


At that level, no one has all the facts. The police would have the most, but I'm sure they are missing a few details, otherwise there would hopefully be more charges laid.

Still, in February, the video was supposedly shot, and both Anthony Smith and Muhammed Khattak (along with a third man) appeared in the picture associated with that video. In March, Anthony Smith was gunned down outside a nightclub, and in the same event, Khattak was non-fatally shot.

In May, the crack video first surfaces, and the records show that night a flurry of phone calls between Lisi and Ford. There are also a number of phone calls between Lisi and the house from the photo where the video was supposedly recorded. That Ford called Lisi makes sense--they are friends, of course you call a friend when things go to hell--but why is Lisi then calling the crackhouse where this video was shot?

Shortly thereafter Ford's Chief of Staff took phone calls from people saying that the murder was related to the video, information that he immediately turned over to the police to be investigated. Friends of Smith believe he had the video on a cell phone.

Ford high school friend and resident of the crack house, Fabio Basso, was beaten (along with Elena Basso) by a man with a steel pipe who broke into the house a few days after the video story broke... the police were called at this assault in progress. 

In June, Nisar Hamishi was charged and sentenced to 9 years manslaughter of Anthony Smith, and also plead guilty to aggravated assault in relation to Muhammed Khattak.

Khattak and the third man in the photo were both arrested in the Project Traveller raids.

Two additional people arrested during the Project Traveller raids in June are friends of Anthony Smith, and claim to be threatened by Lisi in relation to the video, which is the basis of Lisi's extortion charge.

It's impossible to know who caused what and how everything connects but the lines keep crossing, and Mayor Ford keeps ending up in the middle of it all. It's a disturbing number of connections, and I haven't even dug deeply into this.


----------



## jlcinc

Sun TV has cancelled the Rob and Doug show not to be confused with the Bob and Doug Mckenzie show "good day eh"

Apparently it was to costly to produce?

What???


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> At that level, no one has all the facts. The police would have the most, but I'm sure they are missing a few details, otherwise there would hopefully be more charges laid.
> 
> Still, in February, the video was supposedly shot, and both Anthony Smith and Muhammed Khattak (along with a third man) appeared in the picture associated with that video. In March, Anthony Smith was gunned down outside a nightclub, and in the same event, Khattak was non-fatally shot.
> 
> In May, the crack video first surfaces, and the records show that night a flurry of phone calls between Lisi and Ford. There are also a number of phone calls between Lisi and the house from the photo where the video was supposedly recorded. That Ford called Lisi makes sense--they are friends, of course you call a friend when things go to hell--but why is Lisi then calling the crackhouse where this video was shot?
> 
> Shortly thereafter Ford's Chief of Staff took phone calls from people saying that the murder was related to the video, information that he immediately turned over to the police to be investigated. Friends of Smith believe he had the video on a cell phone.
> 
> Ford high school friend and resident of the crack house, Fabio Basso, was beaten (along with Elena Basso) by a man with a steel pipe who broke into the house a few days after the video story broke... the police were called at this assault in progress.
> 
> In June, Nisar Hamishi was charged and sentenced to 9 years manslaughter of Anthony Smith, and also plead guilty to aggravated assault in relation to Muhammed Khattak.
> 
> Khattak and the third man in the photo were both arrested in the Project Traveller raids.
> 
> Two additional people arrested during the Project Traveller raids in June are friends of Anthony Smith, and claim to be threatened by Lisi in relation to the video, which is the basis of Lisi's extortion charge.
> 
> It's impossible to know who caused what and how everything connects but the lines keep crossing, and Mayor Ford keeps ending up in the middle of it all. It's a disturbing number of connections, and I haven't even dug deeply into this.


Nice summary.

Yesterday watching the news, I listened to Norm Kelly explain what is occurring in the mayor's office and transitions. I couldn't help but think, despite not knowing very much about Norm Kelly, for once, it was nice to have an intelligent adult speak as what seems to be 'part mayor' for now. No half baked one liners, just straight conversation on the events.


----------



## Macfury

jlcinc said:


> Sun TV has cancelled the Rob and Doug show not to be confused with the Bob and Doug Mckenzie show "good day eh"
> 
> Apparently it was to costly to produce?
> 
> What???


SUN TV has a maximum viewership across Canada of 5,000 people--fewer than most amateur cable programs produced locally. It's run at a loss. Any program it runs costs too much money.


----------



## WCraig

Great post, Sonal!

I don't particularly like Heather Mallick, generally, but she is spot on in her column in this morning's Toronto Star asking why CBC and CP24 didn't ask more pertinent and penetrating questions when they interviewed Rob and Doug:



> ...the mayor has hard questions to answer. So ask them. I don’t mean moral ones, I mean specifics, such as “Why did your family have 26 ‘interactions’ with police in the past eight years? Explain.”
> 
> “In the rant video, who were you going to kill?”
> 
> “Why haven’t you voluntarily gone to a police station to answer questions?”
> 
> I don’t even understand why the police haven’t brought him in for an interview in the back of the cop car, stolidly protecting the top of his huge pink head as he slides into the back seat. We’ve seen it in cop shows. No one gives a toss what your lawyer says. You’re the mayor. Do it.
> 
> “What was in the envelopes and bags Sandro Lisi was photographed carting about in the vicinity of your Escalade? Why did you cut your hair super-short after the news of the video broke, and before you said your fellow councillors should be drug-tested? Were you worried about hair samples?”
> 
> “And, Mayor Ford, who is your friend ‘Alana’ who is not a prostitute? Where did you meet? At mayor school?”
> 
> TV and radio journalists have let slide Ford’s ridiculous claims of Toronto transformation. He did not save the city $1 billion. The Star’s Daniel Dale has meticulously destroyed that claim. Why didn’t Mansbridge’s producers hand him Dale’s story and ask him to refer to it?


OTOH, Ford has consistently lied about his past behaviour until confronted with irrefutable evidence:

"Were you charged in Florida for driving under the influence?" "No...err...yes"

"Did you verbally berate patrons at a Toronto Maple Leafs game?" "No, I wasn't at the game...err...I was at the game, but there was no confrontation...err...yes."

Etc...

Craig


----------



## Macfury

Years ago, SCTV ran some skits featuring a pair of argumentative brothers who run for various civic offices. I think more and more of the DiFilippo brothers when I see the Fords in action these days.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> Hey, even when I'm in Canada, I live half a country away from Toronto... and feel no compunction about posting here. This buffoon's behaviour is affecting Canada's image abroad, and thus is fair game for any Canadian to comment.
> 
> *That said... what you note above is precisely why many of those who are not on the "right" find those who are on the "right" hypocritical. They are consistently "tough on crime" "three strikes you're out" "mandatory heavy sentences" for everyone until it affects someone they know or for whom they feel an affinity. *
> 
> How many people out there have suffered far more rapid and harsh "justice" simply because they were not white, did not have the personal / political connections, lived in a particular neighbourhood, etc., without receiving *any* of this leaning-over-backward sympathy trip that Ford has received?
> 
> And while you ponder that (though I doubt those of you who should, will), take the time to consider the extremes of this tough-on-crime policy as it manifests south of the border: Why Should Thousands of Prisoners Die Behind Bars for Nonviolent Crimes?.
> 
> No thread derailment intended - but it is to the point of unequal "justice" and the privilege enjoyed by Rob Ford.


I really don't know what you expect? The man isn't charged with anything as yet plus he is not a federal politician i.e., he isn't the competition. 

This whole tough on crime bent that some on the left are taking is misplaced here at this point in time. If he eventually is charged with a crime then it will be appropriate until then this is all just about his bad behaviour and nothing more. 

As for your reference of the US, it is completely misplaced. This is Canada.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> I really don't know what you expect? The man isn't charged with anything as yet plus he is not a federal politician i.e., he isn't the competition.
> 
> This whole tough on crime bent that some on the left are taking is misplaced here at this point in time. If he eventually is charged with a crime then it will be appropriate until then this is all just about his bad behaviour and nothing more.
> 
> As for you reference of the US, it is completely misplaced. This is Canada.


except that he stood side by side with our police chief speaking out against gangs and crime, only to be right in there with them.

It is not misplaced at all Screature.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> except that he stood side by side with our police chief speaking out against gangs and crime, *only to be right in there with them*.
> 
> It is not misplaced at all Screature.


Well if that is the case (I thought they were only accusations at this point) I can see your point to a degree but it is still a municipal bent that you speak of and not federal. And again there are no charges as yet. So still, I don't know why anyone would expect the feds to be denouncing Ford at this point. 

That being said, MacKay did make a comment regarding Ford and setting a bad example a couple of days ago.


----------



## groovetube

screature, regardless of where a mayor politically sits, or whether that have stood side by side with the police chief during press conferences on statements against gangs etc., you don't want your mayor consorting with gangs and buying/doing hard drugs like crack with them.

Saying 'it sets a bad example', is the understatement.


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> *screature, regardless of where a mayor politically sits, or whether that have stood side by side with the police chief during press conferences on statements against gangs etc., you don't want your mayor consorting with gangs and buying/doing hard drugs like crack with them.*
> 
> Saying 'it sets a bad example', is the understatement.


Undoubtedly.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> At that level, no one has all the facts. The police would have the most, but I'm sure they are missing a few details, otherwise there would hopefully be more charges laid.
> 
> Still, in February, the video was supposedly shot, and both Anthony Smith and Muhammed Khattak (along with a third man) appeared in the picture associated with that video. In March, Anthony Smith was gunned down outside a nightclub, and in the same event, Khattak was non-fatally shot.
> 
> In May, the crack video first surfaces, and the records show that night a flurry of phone calls between Lisi and Ford. There are also a number of phone calls between Lisi and the house from the photo where the video was supposedly recorded. That Ford called Lisi makes sense--they are friends, of course you call a friend when things go to hell--but why is Lisi then calling the crackhouse where this video was shot?
> 
> Shortly thereafter Ford's Chief of Staff took phone calls from people saying that the murder was related to the video, information that he immediately turned over to the police to be investigated. Friends of Smith believe he had the video on a cell phone.
> 
> Ford high school friend and resident of the crack house, Fabio Basso, was beaten (along with Elena Basso) by a man with a steel pipe who broke into the house a few days after the video story broke... the police were called at this assault in progress.
> 
> In June, Nisar Hamishi was charged and sentenced to 9 years manslaughter of Anthony Smith, and also plead guilty to aggravated assault in relation to Muhammed Khattak.
> 
> Khattak and the third man in the photo were both arrested in the Project Traveller raids.
> 
> Two additional people arrested during the Project Traveller raids in June are friends of Anthony Smith, and claim to be threatened by Lisi in relation to the video, which is the basis of Lisi's extortion charge.
> 
> It's impossible to know who caused what and how everything connects but the lines keep crossing, and Mayor Ford keeps ending up in the middle of it all. It's a disturbing number of connections, and I haven't even dug deeply into this.


Thanks for the synopsis Sonal very informative. 

Why was Nisar Hamishi given only 9 years and how can shooting someone only be manslaughter and not first degree murder? I don't get that part.


----------



## screature

So Jason Kenney does what some here have been looking for from the feds:



> "I will say as an elected official that I think Mr. Ford has brought dishonour to public office and the office of mayor and his city," Kenney, the employment and social justice minister, said Tuesday as he left the House of Commons.
> 
> "I wished he had taken a leave of absence some time ago to go and deal with his personal problems. But not having done that, I personally think he should step aside and stop dragging the city of Toronto through this terrible embarrassment."


----------



## fjnmusic

Rob Ford will be gone by Christmas. There is only so long you can hang around with no powers and no respect. If he were wise he would go on a medical leave.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Macfury

fjnmusic said:


> Rob Ford will be gone by Christmas.


Want to put a fiver on it?


----------



## Sonal

screature said:


> Thanks for the synopsis Sonal very informative.
> 
> Why was Nisar Hamishi given only 9 years and how can shooting someone only be manslaughter and not first degree murder? I don't get that part.


He claimed he was intoxicated at the time, and alleged that Smith started the fight, so intent was difficult to prove... they worked out a plea deal and dropped the charges from 1st degree murder to manslaughter.

Digging into it a bit.... in April Hamishi came forward (before the crack video surfaced) and turned himself in to the police. (They were closing in on him anyway.)

As part of the plea--which was finalized about a month after the video surfaced, and after the Project Traveller raids--the evidence collected (wiretaps, surveillance, laptops, cell phones, etc.) will not be disclosed in open court, and therefore not disclosed to the public. 

CBC, among others, spoke to one criminal lawyer unrelated to the case who found this deal unusual, in the relatively light sentence, the speed in which it was wrapped up, and the lack of disclosure. Not being a criminal lawyer, I have no idea if that's accurate or not, though Hamishi's own lawyer also said that time served is the low end of the range.


----------



## whatiwant

fjnmusic said:


> Rob Ford will be gone by Christmas.


So long as the media and consumers of media give him attention (any kind of attention) he'll stay put in my opinion.


----------



## mrjimmy

The brother's Ford are delusional. They really don't think they have done anything wrong. They will continue their bulldozing until they hit either stone or water. Which it will be is the thing that will keep us watching.


----------



## eMacMan

One of the major nitworks did a phone in survey about which story viewers wanted more coverage on.

"The Ford bums" came in at 1%. The scary part is the offered alternatives were: "The Senate scandal" and "The Robocalls scandal" 

Clearly the puking caused by brothers Ford is not limited to that pair.


----------



## screature

Sonal said:


> He claimed he was intoxicated at the time, and alleged that Smith started the fight, so intent was difficult to prove... they worked out a plea deal and dropped the charges from 1st degree murder to manslaughter.
> 
> Digging into it a bit.... in April Hamishi came forward (before the crack video surfaced) and turned himself in to the police. (They were closing in on him anyway.)
> 
> As part of the plea--which was finalized about a month after the video surfaced, and after the Project Traveller raids--the evidence collected (wiretaps, surveillance, laptops, cell phones, etc.) will not be disclosed in open court, and therefore not disclosed to the public.
> 
> CBC, among others, spoke to one criminal lawyer unrelated to the case who found this deal unusual, in the relatively light sentence, the speed in which it was wrapped up, and the lack of disclosure. Not being a criminal lawyer, I have no idea if that's accurate or not, though Hamishi's own lawyer also said that time served is the low end of the range.


Thanks for the info Sonal.


----------



## Paddy

More arrests of those surrounding Lisi:
Rob Ford: Two more men arrested in drug investigation | Toronto Star


----------



## macintosh doctor

Paddy said:


> More arrests of those surrounding Lisi:
> Rob Ford: Two more men arrested in drug investigation | Toronto Star


reads like a HBO drama .. LOL
- but the did the police entrap them? when the cleaner said you must be a cop? and the cop laughed it off..


----------



## i-rui

macintosh doctor said:


> reads like a HBO drama .. LOL
> - but the did the police entrap them? when the cleaner said you must be a cop? and the cop laughed it off..


your knowledge of the law is as thorough and nuanced as your knowledge of politics.


----------



## screature

i-rui said:


> your knowledge of the law is as thorough and nuanced as your knowledge of politics.


It seems he was asking a question not stating something he believed to be the case. Anyway, pretty harsh.


----------



## macintosh doctor

i-rui said:


> your knowledge of the law is as thorough and nuanced as your knowledge of politics.


I never stated I am an officer of the law in my QUESTION!!! - seems your reading skills are weak..
But thanks for not answering my simple questions..

as for politics.. there is no straight answer as to, how to be or behave in politics - shows how perfect you are..


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## i-rui

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> +
> YouTube Video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


hooooooo boy. This just ain't gonna end is it!


----------



## CubaMark

screature said:


> I really don't know what you expect? The man isn't charged with anything as yet plus he is not a federal politician i.e., he isn't the competition.


I am not talking (yet) about penalties for breaking the law. I am referring to the statements and evasions provided by those, who are generally in favour of a hardline approach to criminal activity, in the Ford case seem very willing to excuse his behaviour when in any other instance in which the subject at the centre of the controversy would be lambasted on the flimsiest of evidence. What we have with Ford is far from flimsy (it is, in fact, admission). That's the hypocrisy of which I speak.



screature said:


> As for your reference of the US, it is completely misplaced. This is Canada.


No, it is not misplaced. I was discussing the ridiculousness of a tough-on-crime approach that leads to higher and unnecessary levels of incarceration for some, while those with privilege in society walk. It's as relevant in Canada as it is in the USA.


----------



## Sonal

macintosh doctor said:


> reads like a HBO drama .. LOL
> - but the did the police entrap them? when the cleaner said you must be a cop? and the cop laughed it off..


Entrapment is when the police trick someone into commiting a crime they would not ordinarily commit... For example, if the police told someone that they were setting up a business wholesaling dried oregano and then busted them for dealing pot. That's entrapment.

Saying you are not a cop is not entrapment--it's simply working undercover. In any case, given that these guys had been in discussion with the police for some time about marijuana, buying it, selling it, etc (and the whole thing came up because the dry cleaner asked about the rolling papers instead of just giving them back without a word) before the one guy joked about whether he was a cop--it's not entrapment.


----------



## screature

CubaMark said:


> I am not talking (yet) about penalties for breaking the law. I am referring to the statements and evasions provided by those, who are generally in favour of a hardline approach to criminal activity, in the Ford case seem very willing to excuse his behaviour when in any other instance in which the subject at the centre of the controversy would be lambasted on the flimsiest of evidence. What we have with Ford is far from flimsy (it is, in fact, admission). That's the hypocrisy of which I speak.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is not misplaced. I was discussing the ridiculousness of a tough-on-crime approach that leads to higher and unnecessary levels of incarceration for some, while those with privilege in society walk. It's as relevant in Canada as it is in the USA.


Who exactly are you talking about that are willing to excuse his behaviour?

"Tough on crime" differs from one jurisdiction to another, the devil is in the details. So no not relevant except by way of extrapolation to take a shot at a political party that you disagree with... it has nothing to do with the Rob Ford case.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Sonal said:


> Entrapment is when the police trick someone into commiting a crime they would not ordinarily commit... For example, if the police told someone that they were setting up a business wholesaling dried oregano and then busted them for dealing pot. That's entrapment.
> 
> Saying you are not a cop is not entrapment--it's simply working undercover. In any case, given that these guys had been in discussion with the police for some time about marijuana, buying it, selling it, etc (and the whole thing came up because the dry cleaner asked about the rolling papers instead of just giving them back without a word) before the one guy joked about whether he was a cop--it's not entrapment.


THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING  - you are a classy person for not being sarcastic as well for my lack of law knowledge .. 

i-rui you could learn from people like Sonal..


----------



## i-rui

yes, she has the patience of Job.


----------



## groovetube

screature said:


> Who exactly are you talking about that are willing to excuse his behaviour?
> 
> "Tough on crime" differs from one jurisdiction to another, the devil is in the details. So no not relevant except by way of extrapolation to take a shot at a political party that you disagree with... it has nothing to do with the Rob Ford case.


I think CM is referring to how often when we see the right standing on soapboxes screaming about the left being 'hug-a-thugs' etc etc, we often will very soon get to witness just how hypocritical they are. If the right spent less time pointing the finger at the left in their tough on crime rants, perhaps there'd be less to er, chuckle about.

It doesn't appear to me (or many others watching) that Ford is so separate from The fed cons, they've made no secret of their alliance with the 'ford dynasty', and I have yet to see Harper or his cabinet ministers say anything strongly beyond 'it sets a poor example'. Wow.

Only Jason Kenny has gone further to suggest he resign.

Boy that's tough on crime!


----------



## i-rui

so this is the "health professional" that RoFo is getting to help him with his issues :

Rob Ford fitness consultant a convicted steroid trafficker, banned from coaching in Canada | National Post

can he do *anything* right?


----------



## groovetube

of course. Thousands of great personal trainers in this city, and this is the one that trains rob ford?

Of course he is.


----------



## Sonal

i-rui said:


> so this is the "health professional" that RoFo is getting to help him with his issues :
> 
> Rob Ford fitness consultant a convicted steroid trafficker, banned from coaching in Canada | National Post
> 
> can he do *anything* right?


I'm sure his trainer came highly recommended by a friend.


----------



## CubaMark

Sonal said:


> I'm sure his trainer came highly recommended by a friend.


Well... have to be sure to catch Jon Stewart this evening, then....


----------



## mrjimmy

Some stats.

Ford Nation doesn't live in Etobicoke, according to Ipsos | Toronto Star



> Wright identified the hard-core supporters who will not abandon their mayor.
> 
> They are predominantly people with lower-income and lower education levels. Some 44 per cent of respondents who don’t have a high school diploma support Ford, while only 17 per cent of those with university degrees do.
> 
> People who make less than $40,000 per year are twice as likely to be part of Ford Nation than those who make $100,000 or more, according to his tables.
> 
> Ford Nation is also slightly more concentrated in the young and the old. Some 22 percent of respondents aged 18-34 still support Ford, as do 24 per cent of those over 55. Only 20 per cent of voters in the 35-44 age bracket support Ford.
> 
> “I think this is reflective of a younger, undereducated cohort who wants to ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent well,” said Wright.
> 
> Wright says Ford won election by combining his Ford Nation voters with higher-income and better educated people, a group he’s now “lost completely.”
> 
> “What’s happened is more-educated and higher-income voters, who may have been on board because they like the message of fiscal integrity and respecting taxpayers’ money, have gone away because they feel like they don’t like the behaviour,” he said.


----------



## groovetube

Ironically, those are the groups Ford has hit with increased user fees, less programs, in order to protect higher incomes from having to pay anything for them.

Typical con bait and switch.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Some stats.
> 
> Ford Nation doesn't live in Etobicoke, according to Ipsos | Toronto Star


Makes perfect sense. The working poor were hardest hit by Merry Miller.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Makes perfect sense. The working poor were hardest hit by Merry Miller.


Also the group for whom saving $60 a year on vehicle licensing makes a big difference... for all the cries of look, shiny balls.


----------



## groovetube

Isn't this the same group that likely uses a lot of things like community centers pools etc. for their kids, increased user fees etc., well, so much for that 60 bucks!


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Isn't this the same group that likely uses a lot of things like community censers pools etc. for their kids, increased user fees etc., well, so much for that 60 bucks!


Every group uses those things. 

But you can always do without taking your kids swimming. Hard to do without a car when you live in, say, Malvern. 

Especially if you need to car to take the kids to the pool, which is true in, say, Malvern.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Every group uses those things.
> 
> But you can always do without taking your kids swimming. Hard to do without a car when you live in, say, Malvern.
> 
> Especially if you need to car to take the kids to the pool, which is true in, say, Malvern.


Sure, but the low income working poor with families, this is going to hit them much more than the more well off.

My point here is, if Rob Ford really was about the little guy, this wouldn't have happened. He'd have more credibility if he stuck to things like, no free crack pipes.

er, maybe no free condoms... no, wait a second. Never mind.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> Sure, but the low income working poor with families, this is going to hit them much more than the more well off.
> 
> My point here is, if Rob Ford really was about the little guy, this wouldn't have happened. He'd have more credibility if he stuck to things like, no free crack pipes.
> 
> er, maybe no free condoms... no, wait a second. Never mind.


I don't think Rob Ford is truly about the little guy... he's about whoever calls his office complaining about the city not doing something like moving a pile of sand. 

But my point is that one of Miller's biggest failings was his inability to connect with voters outside of the downtown core. He may have been able to do quite a bit to help them, but he did a poor job of selling that.

And I think it's shortsighted to dismiss the people who still support Ford as being distracted by small things, instead of hearing them. These are the people to whom these things matter; it's worthwhile to take time to understand that. (I continue to get an earful from the staunchest Ford supporter I know about the 5 cent bag thing.... makes you wonder if the reduction in plastic bag use was really worth alienating a portion of the population and losing their political goodwill.)


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I don't think Rob Ford is truly about the little guy... he's about whoever calls his office complaining about the city not doing something like moving a pile of sand.
> 
> But my point is that one of Miller's biggest failings was his inability to connect with voters outside of the downtown core. He may have been able to do quite a bit to help them, but he did a poor job of selling that.
> 
> And I think it's shortsighted to dismiss the people who still support Ford as being distracted by small things, instead of hearing them. These are the people to whom these things matter; it's worthwhile to take time to understand that. (I continue to get an earful from the staunchest Ford supporter I know about the 5 cent bag thing.... makes you wonder if the reduction in plastic bag use was really worth alienating a portion of the population and losing their political goodwill.)


I don't disagree there. If Toronto is to stay amalgamated we're going to have to get used to dealing with ALL regions. I have been saying that for some time, though so many are posting petitions to de-almalgamate. That just ain't gonna happen.

What we really really need, is a mayor who is qualified to be the leader, of ALL regions, we don't need another downtown mayor, nor another region. We've tried the Millers, and Fords. 

Now it's time we recognized that the job description is much more involved. Perhaps Ford can just be that guy in city hall that answers the phones, and kicks some butt to get some action on needed items, if people need some sand moved, or a tree trimmed, or whatever.


----------



## Sonal

groovetube said:


> I don't disagree there. If Toronto is to stay amalgamated we're going to have to get used to dealing with ALL regions. I have been saying that for some time, though so many are posting petitions to de-almalgamate. That just ain't gonna happen.
> 
> What we really really need, is a mayor who is qualified to be the leader, of ALL regions, we don't need another downtown mayor, nor another region. We've tried the Millers, and Fords.
> 
> Now it's time we recognized that the job description is much more involved. Perhaps Ford can just be that guy in city hall that answers the phones, and kicks some butt to get some action on needed items, if people need some sand moved, or a tree trimmed, or whatever.


I think he'd be good in that role. Like, you call 311, you can't get stuff done, you escalate until you reach Rob Ford and he gets it done. (I have some tasks for him, in fact.) 

In hindsight--and I may be misremembering a bit--perhaps a better way to implement the vehicle registration tax would have been with exemptions based on lower income. Generally, if your income is low, you can't afford to live near decent transit, so a car becomes an expensive necessity.... financially penalizing such people for owning cars is not going to go over well.


----------



## groovetube

I'm totally fine with that. a 60 dollar reg fee is like 4 or 5 lattes 

Rick Mercer had a pretty pointed rant. What he says near the end, is something all mayor candidates need to think about if they sit anywhere left of centre politically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfdoLedAWWg


----------



## i-rui




----------



## i-rui

It’s now costing Toronto more to borrow money amid the ongoing scandal surrounding Mayor Rob Ford.

Video: Ford scandal could hurt Toronto


----------



## mrjimmy

Love that GIF!


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> In hindsight--and I may be misremembering a bit--perhaps a better way to implement the vehicle registration tax would have been with exemptions based on lower income.


Screw that. I'm tired of income-based punishments. Besides, the screening process would be cost-prohibitive.


----------



## groovetube

It just shows that these incoming "tax saver" liars generally have a bunch of myths they make up, and they know that if they just repeat it often enough, people will just believe it.

They also know, the same people will give them a pass on spending it up, 'cause y'know, he's their guy and he's doin a good job eh!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Screw that. I'm tired of income-based punishments. Besides, the screening process would be cost-prohibitive.


Hey, you choose to make money, you choose the consequences of you actions.


----------



## SINC

Hehehe:

Rob Ford makes Canadians proud: The Toronto mayor's antics make me feel less dorky.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Hehehe:
> 
> Rob Ford makes Canadians proud: The Toronto mayor's antics make me feel less dorky.


I think Americans are also relieved and happy that something so nutty is happening north of the border, instead of in the lower 48. Done wonders for their morale!


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Hehehe:
> 
> Rob Ford makes Canadians proud: The Toronto mayor's antics make me feel less dorky.


I just read that.

The writer is originally from Ottawa, and then moved to the US. Toronto can't help it if people from Ottawa feel dorky about where they are from.


----------



## mrjimmy

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube

Nicely done!


----------



## Macfury

Nahh. Not enough work went into it. Too much cribbing straight from the Farley coming attractions.


----------



## MacGuiver

I laughed my ass off at this one. I saw the original ad with Jean Claude Van Dam and thought it would be hilarious if you could superimpose Rob Ford instead with the same words. Well someone did it the next day. It would have been better though if they could have shown him from the waist up in a suit.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRdXOr-uYlU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRdXOr-uYlU[/ame]


----------



## rondini

The only epic split that Rob Ford ever mastered was the banana split!


----------



## groovetube

‘Gravy train’: Rob Ford’s reaction to possible tax increase ‘not good’ as council readies for a fight | National Post

ha ha ha yeah. Apparently he still believes in unicorns and rainbows when he maintains paying for the scarborough subway is actually free! :lmao:

Meanwhile, he likes his own gravy train, starting with handing out 5k bonuses to all his staff to buy their loyalty through the scandal, and giving his buddy a 130k/yr job to do, well we never really understood, what.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Oops posted


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

*Too bad someone doesn't beat the c... out Ford*

Rob Ford police investigation: 'Domestic assault' call at Ford home sidetracked police sting | Toronto Star


----------



## mrjimmy

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Rob Ford police investigation: 'Domestic assault' call at Ford home sidetracked police sting | Toronto Star


Add 'scumbag' to the list of Ford adjectives.


----------



## groovetube

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Rob Ford police investigation: 'Domestic assault' call at Ford home sidetracked police sting | Toronto Star


man. Anytime I read these reports it just makes me shudder.

Watching Norm Kelly on tv recently, it's just nice to see someone intelligent, calm, speaking candidly with the media. I don't care if he's conservative, just please be our mayor even temporarily.


----------



## whatiwant

skippythebushkangaroo said:


> Rob Ford police investigation: 'Domestic assault' call at Ford home sidetracked police sting | Toronto Star


Yep. "Nothing left to hide"

"I wasn't lying! I was implying I thought you knew about it!" Future comment.


----------



## BigDL

*Ballad of Rob Ford*

.[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHRiE1PtRa8]Chris Daughtry Sings "The Ballad of Rob Ford" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Dr.G.

What amazes me is what shall happen comes the next municipal election if Mayor Ford wins by a resounding majority???


----------



## SINC

Dr.G. said:


> What amazes me is what shall happen comes the next municipal election if Mayor Ford wins by a resounding majority???


After watching today's Toronto Global TV polls and approval ratings for Ford at 42%, that might just be what happens. 

Might be a lot of tight sphincters in this thread come October.


----------



## screature

BigDL said:


> .Chris Daughtry Sings "The Ballad of Rob Ford" - YouTube


That was ok, but this is funnier IMO:....




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> After watching today's Toronto Global TV polls and approval ratings for Ford at 42%, that might just be what happens.
> 
> Might be a lot of tight sphincters in this thread come October.


Ford's approval rating of about 40%-45% has been constant for nearly the entirety of his term... no surprise there at all.

It's all going to depend on who actually runs. Right now though, when polls put him in a match up with other candidates (two declared, two assumed) he loses in pretty much every combination. 

Rob Ford faces unlikely road to re-election as mayoral rivals Stintz, Chow and Tory all best him in new poll | National Post


----------



## macintosh doctor

Sonal said:


> Ford's approval rating of about 40%-45% has been constant for nearly the entirety of his term... no surprise there at all.
> 
> It's all going to depend on who actually runs. Right now though, when polls put him in a match up with other candidates (two declared, two assumed) he loses in pretty much every combination.
> 
> Rob Ford faces unlikely road to re-election as mayoral rivals Stintz, Chow and Tory all best him in new poll | National Post


Let us pray and hope TORY wins if he runs. Toronto needs it badly a respectable person and serious candidate.


----------



## Macfury

All of those candidates are bummers--including Tory.


----------



## mrjimmy

We need a Mayor who is going to refer to us as citizens over taxpayers.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> What amazes me is what shall happen comes the next municipal election if Mayor Ford wins by a resounding majority???


well I wouldn't be totally discounting ford in the next election. There are people who are all totally good with him drinking and driving, smoking crack and hanging with gang members who sell dope, amazingly enough. But there's not much I can do about that, really.



Sonal said:


> Ford's approval rating of about 40%-45% has been constant for nearly the entirety of his term... no surprise there at all. It may surprise me that they have words of encouragement for such a person, but well, that's their problem I guess.
> 
> It's all going to depend on who actually runs. Right now though, when polls put him in a match up with other candidates (two declared, two assumed) he loses in pretty much every combination.
> 
> Rob Ford faces unlikely road to re-election as mayoral rivals Stintz, Chow and Tory all best him in new poll | National Post


Precisely, because it was who was running last time that got Ford into the mayor's chair in the first place. His only real competition was Smitherman, and the anger at smitherman was such that many held their noses and voted for him to try and stop ford from being elected. But by the same token, the very same was true of many people who remembered Smitherman's primary role in eHealth and the gas plants fiasco. With the list of candidates that's shaping up for the next round, it appears at this time that Ford likely won't stand a chance facing real candidates.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> We need a Mayor who is going to refer to us as citizens over taxpayers.


hah! +1


----------



## i-rui

lets be honest here, a burning tire would be a better mayor than Ford. The idea that there isn't great candidates out there is silly. There's plenty, all of whom are light years better than Ford.


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> We need a Mayor who is going to refer to us as citizens over taxpayers.


Quite the opposite. I appreciate dropping the phony appeal that attempts to make picking my pocket look like a collaborative enterprise.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> lets be honest here, a burning tire would be a better mayor than Ford. The idea that there isn't great candidates out there is silly. There's plenty, all of whom are light years better than Ford.


Burning tire.

That's pretty accurate.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> lets be honest here, a burning tire would be a better mayor than Ford. The idea that there isn't great candidates out there is silly. There's plenty, all of whom are light years better than Ford.


Well no--not Olivia Chow.


----------



## macintosh doctor

i-rui said:


> lets be honest here, a burning tire would be a better mayor than Ford. The idea that there isn't great candidates out there is silly. There's plenty, all of whom are light years better than Ford.


burning tire is bad for the environment..
so in that case even a dairy cow is bad for the environment.. LOL [ too gasy like most political figures they are full of it!}

still until we find better John Tory is the only answer. currently we have Oliva Chow 
Stinz or Ford..

so Tory is much better.. he has had federal and provincial experience.. no one else has not to mention was a campaign manager / PR for Mulroney - which was the best PM we ever had.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Quite the opposite. I appreciate dropping the phony appeal that attempts to make picking my pocket look like a collaborative enterprise.


In that case, I want a bigger vote proportional to all the taxes I pay on rental property due to the higher market values and the higher mill rate.... which means that all of you don't count for as much as one of me.  beejacon


----------



## macintosh doctor

Sonal said:


> In that case, I want a bigger vote proportional to all the taxes I pay on rental property due to the higher market values and the higher mill rate.... which means that all of you don't count for as much as one of me.  beejacon


oh no, the 1% is getting excited and needy :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> In that case, I want a bigger vote proportional to all the taxes I pay on rental property due to the higher market values and the higher mill rate.... which means that all of you don't count for as much as one of me.  beejacon


I want a head tax. We're all equal here.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I want a head tax. We're all equal here.


Until that day, the term "citizen" is the only way you can be lexically equal to me. Because if it's "taxpayer", then under the current system, I outrank you. beejacon :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Until that day, the term "citizen" is the only way you can be lexically equal to me. Because if it's "taxpayer", then under the current system, I outrank you. beejacon :lmao:



Corporate taxpayer!


----------



## rgray

groovetube said:


> well I wouldn't be totally discounting ford in the next election. There are people who are all totally good with him drinking and driving, smoking crack and hanging with gang members who sell dope, amazingly enough. But there's not much I can do about that, really.
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely, because it was who was running last time that got Ford into the mayor's chair in the first place. His only real competition was Smitherman, and the anger at smitherman was such that many held their noses and voted for him to try and stop ford from being elected. But by the same token, the very same was true of many people who remembered Smitherman's primary role in eHealth and the gas plants fiasco. With the list of candidates that's shaping up for the next round, it appears at this time that Ford likely won't stand a chance facing real candidates.


Rick Mercer had something to say about this in a recent "rant" - Clips: Rick

I hope the voters in Toronto realise that this buffoon holligan is not only a major embarassment to the city but also to the whole country. And seems too stupid to step down on his own......


----------



## mrjimmy

rgray said:


> Rick Mercer had something to say about this in a recent "rant" - Clips: Rick
> 
> I hope the voters in Toronto realise that this buffoon holligan is not only a major embarassment to the city but also to the whole country. And seems too stupid to step down on his own......


The ones who still support him barely have enough grey matter to lift their head let alone have the ability to 'realize' anything.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> The ones who still support him barely have enough grey matter to lift their head let alone have the ability to 'realize' anything.


There's that empty egg of fiscal responsibility they seem to want to keep warm.


----------



## Macfury

They want to keep an empty egg warm? Well spoken, sir! IF Rob Ford had expressed himself this way, it would be on Jimmy Kimmel tomorrow night.


----------



## rgray

Crack-smoking Toronto Mayor Rob Ford is more popular than Obama and U.S. Congress, survey shows | Mail Online


----------



## Macfury

rgray said:


> Crack-smoking Toronto Mayor Rob Ford is more popular than Obama and U.S. Congress, survey shows | Mail Online


One reason to be grateful for the Big O's failed presidency!


----------



## macintosh doctor

rgray said:


> Crack-smoking Toronto Mayor Rob Ford is more popular than Obama and U.S. Congress, survey shows | Mail Online


he promised to pull troops out in his first term, forced insurance down peoples throats and threatened with legal follow up and spent more money then Bush ever did.. hmmm.. let me see and wonder why Ford is more popular LMAO:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Republican talking points just make me laugh.

If ya repeats it enoughs, it's true!

It's no different than people that actually think ford is spending wisely, and didn't misuse taxpayers money.

Doh!


----------



## FeXL

groovetube said:


> Republican talking points just make me laugh.


So, care to outline exactly which of these "Republican talking points" is erroneous?

Or are you going to just continue to troll all over these boards?

Hint: If you weren't trolling, making all these baseless claims and shoring your numbers with CFP's, nobody would be asking you these pointed, uncomfortable questions. By not addressing them, it's you who looks foolish, not the questioner. Fill your boots...


----------



## groovetube

Saw this on twitter today:



> I tried to get Doug Ford to explain why a 2.5% tax hike was an achievement when it happened before and an outrage now. No real answer.


And there likely will never be an answer. These two liars will continue lying to their ford nation because they know, the vast majority will never take the time to look back at the actual facts, and will just believe them.

Their support seems mainly based on their ford nation being duped into this idea that there's some big gravy train. They need to keep this rolling no matter how incredible the tales.

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford misleads voters with five big fibs: Editorial | Toronto Star


----------



## i-rui

the audacity of Ford to criticize a tax hike above 2% when it's *HIS* subway plan that will be hiking the tax an additional .5% is outrageous.

can someone explain to this crackhead that when you add a billion dollar subway plan someone (us taxpayers) have to pay for it.


----------



## Macfury

FeXL said:


> So, care to outline exactly which of these "Republican talking points" is erroneous?
> 
> Or are you going to just continue to troll all over these boards?
> 
> Hint: If you weren't trolling, making all these baseless claims and shoring your numbers with CFP's, nobody would be asking you these pointed, uncomfortable questions. By not addressing them, it's you who looks foolish, not the questioner. Fill your boots...


He's too busy laughing all the time to engage in any intellectual frippery.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> the audacity of Ford to criticize a tax hike above 2% when it's *HIS* subway plan that will be hiking the tax an additional .5% is outrageous.
> 
> can someone explain to this crackhead that when you add a billion dollar subway plan someone (us taxpayers) have to pay for it.


Right. The subway that wouldn't cost anything apparently.

If the right thing to do is to swallow the cancellation fees, and build a subway, fine. But don't pretend this isn't going to impact property taxes.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> the audacity of Ford to criticize a tax hike above 2% when it's *HIS* subway plan that will be hiking the tax an additional .5% is outrageous.
> 
> can someone explain to this crackhead that when you add a billion dollar subway plan someone (us taxpayers) have to pay for it.


I'm better off with Ford than with Miller. For once an elected official worked in my favour.

I hope with his limited powers, he can still knock the increase back to the 1.75% he specified, without council running roughshod over taxpayers.


----------



## groovetube

Ford decries tax proposal; storms out of Toronto budget meeting - The Globe and Mail

This is just beyond stupidity.


----------



## Macfury

Yes, how dare the mayor demand that taxes increase only 1.75%? Why not show the taxpayers real love and raise it a proper amount?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I hope with his limited powers, he can still knock the increase back to the 1.75% he specified, without council running roughshod over taxpayers.


Given that he specified this amount despite being repeatedly told by staff that it would be difficult if not entirely impossible, well, good luck with that.

If anyone has been riding roughshod here, it's the guy who keeps telling grandiose and bald-faced lies about his accomplishments and about what he can actually deliver.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I'm better off with Ford than with Miller. For once an elected official worked in my favour.
> 
> I hope with his limited powers, he can still knock the increase back to the 1.75% he specified, without council running roughshod over taxpayers.


he (still) only has one vote on council. things haven't really changed.

i'm sure you think that you're better off with Ford, but you may be missing the fact that this .5% tax hike is the first of 3 tax hikes that will be coming your way courtesy of his Crackness. after 3 years it's up to 1.6%, and that will be sticking around for the next three decades. Gone are the days of ever seeing tax hikes under 2% in Toronto.

Since i live in the west end it's a tax hike that gets me absolutely zero value. I'll remember it for the rest of my life as a gigantic waste of funds.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> he (still) only has one vote on council. things haven't really changed.
> 
> i'm sure you think that you're better off with Ford, but you may be missing the fact that this .5% tax hike is the first of 3 tax hikes that will be coming your way courtesy of his Crackness. after 3 years it's up to 1.6%, and that will be sticking around for the next three decades. Gone are the days of ever seeing tax hikes under 2% in Toronto.
> 
> Since i live in the west end it's a tax hike that gets me absolutely zero value. I'll remember it for the rest of my life as a gigantic waste of funds.


Essentially almost anything council spends money on, beyond absolutely essential services, is a waste to me--I receive zero value from it.

I've made it clear I have no love of taxpayer funded transit, but if it must be funded, then may as well build subways. If you build subways, then cut something else--council could do it if they wanted to. But they won't.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> he (still) only has one vote on council. things haven't really changed.
> 
> i'm sure you think that you're better off with Ford, but you may be missing the fact that this .5% tax hike is the first of 3 tax hikes that will be coming your way courtesy of his Crackness. after 3 years it's up to 1.6%, and that will be sticking around for the next three decades. Gone are the days of ever seeing tax hikes under 2% in Toronto.
> 
> Since i live in the west end it's a tax hike that gets me absolutely zero value. I'll remember it for the rest of my life as a gigantic waste of funds.


Man. If you dislike tax hikes for this sort of thing, this really is a major kick in the nads courtesy of captain respect the taxpayers!

30 years is a pretty long time, and you know how these things have a habit of going overtime and over budget...


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Essentially almost anything council spends money on, beyond absolutely essential services, is a waste to me--I receive zero value from it.
> 
> I've made it clear I have no love of taxpayer funded transit, but if it must be funded, then may as well build subways. If you build subways, then cut something else--council could do it if they wanted to. But they won't.


What would you consider to be "essential services" in TO? 

Here in St. John's we had a strange situation where snow clearance was deemed an essential services, and in the last election, our current mayor ran on a platform that included slightly higher property taxes to help improve snow clearance. He won with over 55% of the vote in what was thought to be a close election where he would lose. While I voted for his opponent I was in favor of slightly higher municipal taxes if they went to snow clearance of sidewalks and other infrastructure projects (e.g., fixing the roads of potholes, water main replacements, etc).


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> What would you consider to be "essential services" in TO?


Largely road, water, sewer, fire, snow removal. However, there's no reason to raise property taxes to deal with those effectively. Simply eliminate the non-essentials and it can be done within the existing budget. And, while one mayor may keep a promise to use a tax increase toward a specific purpose, the next one will likely place it general revenue.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Largely road, water, sewer, fire, snow removal. However, there's no reason to raise property taxes to deal with those effectively. Simply eliminate the non-essentials and it can be done within the existing budget. And, while one mayor may keep a promise to use a tax increase toward a specific purpose, the next one will likely place it general revenue.


Well as we learned from the KPMG report debacle of 2011, 94% of the city services are either legally mandated as essential or mandatory by the province. (5% are services traditionally covered by the city, and the remaining 1% are entirely discretionary.) And, according to the same report, such services are currently being delivered at or below standard.

So really speaking, they're legally required, and they are in many cases underfunded. 

Unless there is a steady stream of money coming in from higher levels of government, or some other alternative scheme for raising a regular stream of income, property tax increases are simply unavoidable.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Well as we learned from the KPMG report debacle of 2011, 94% of the city services are either legally mandated as essential or mandatory by the province.


Cut each of the legally mandated/essential service budgets by 1 per cent per year. Move TTC over to a user pay service in 5% increments.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Largely road, water, sewer, fire, snow removal. However, there's no reason to raise property taxes to deal with those effectively. Simply eliminate the non-essentials and it can be done within the existing budget. And, while one mayor may keep a promise to use a tax increase toward a specific purpose, the next one will likely place it general revenue.


Not sure if that would work here, in that our essential services include things such as social housing, food banks, culture, parks, busing for the general public and the elderly and disabled (special buses) and libraries, etc. 

Still, I see your point re essential services. Guess we just have different priorities. 

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Guess we just have different priorities.


I think we can agree on this.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> I think we can agree on this.


True. I too would love to see waste cut from municipal, provincial and federal budgets. I guess we might disagree somewhat on the allocation of waste, but we are both fiscal conservatives.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Cut each of the legally mandated/essential service budgets by 1 per cent per year. Move TTC over to a user pay service in 5% increments.


Given that many of these services are already underfunded, and have been for many years, and that the city's population (and associated needs) are growing, this seems unrealistic and in some cases (considering many outstanding state of good repair projects in the city) even dangerous.


----------



## kps

i-rui said:


> he (still) only has one vote on council. things haven't really changed.
> 
> i'm sure you think that you're better off with Ford, but you may be missing the fact that this .5% tax hike is the first of 3 tax hikes that will be coming your way courtesy of his Crackness. after 3 years it's up to 1.6%, and that will be sticking around for the next three decades. Gone are the days of ever seeing tax hikes under 2% in Toronto.
> 
> *Since i live in the west end it's a tax hike that gets me absolutely zero value. I'll remember it for the rest of my life as a gigantic waste of funds.*


Well I hope you'll also remember McGuinty and Wynn *stealing* one billion from the public purse to win 2 Liberal seats. At least with Ford's hikes Toronto will be getting something for the money.

Sonal is saying most services are under funded and Toronto will experience large growth in the coming years, so I'd think you'd be in support of Ford's hikes. I also think if it was someone like Miller proposing these hikes, you'd be in favour of them.

I no longer live in Toronto or give a rat's a$$, but I'm finding a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Given that many of these services are already underfunded, and have been for many years, and that the city's population (and associated needs) are growing, this seems unrealistic and in some cases (considering many outstanding state of good repair projects in the city) even dangerous.


They're not underfunded. The funds are poorly managed.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Given that many of these services are already underfunded, and have been for many years, and that the city's population (and associated needs) are growing, this seems unrealistic and in some cases (considering many outstanding state of good repair projects in the city) even dangerous.


An important point to consider, Sonal. There are some things about a city's needs that require prioritization and need to be funded.

Paix, mon amie.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> They're not underfunded. The funds are poorly managed.


This is where we agree as fiscal conservatives. While I don't know if this statement is true or not, I know that this was the case with the New York City Subway and Bus Authority back in the 1960's. More and more money was poured into the system needlessly as service got worse and worse.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> They're not underfunded. The funds are poorly managed.


While this may be true, it seems unlikely that we will be able to squeeze the hundreds of millions of dollars needed for state of good repair projects out of management efficiencies alone... particularly since we have been underfunding the capital budget for some time now by using the surplus and the reserves in the operating budget in order to keep taxes at some arbitrarily low point. 

I am all for finding management efficiencies, but not at the cost of city services and infrastructure. Fund it properly, and then hire an outside firm to carefully analyze city processes to find money-saving measures--if we are to assume that city department are poorly managed, I wouldn't expect them to be able to be find ways to save money themselves.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> If we are to assume that city department are poorly managed, I wouldn't expect them to be able to be find ways to save money themselves.


We do it by cutting their budgets and firing them if they don't meet performance objectives.


----------



## Sonal

Dr.G. said:


> This is where we agree as fiscal conservatives. While I don't know if this statement is true or not, I know that this was the case with the New York City Subway and Bus Authority back in the 1960's. More and more money was poured into the system needlessly as service got worse and worse.


Well, certainly for this example, the percentage to which the City subsidizes the TTC (which has historically been the lowest subsidy for any mass-transit system in North America) has been dropping, and services have had to be cut as a result. 

This of course, is the operating budget, as the TTC is in need of significant capital investment just to maintain its existing infrastructure, not to mention the new investment.

Much of the problem with the City funding the TTC is that the province used to split the subsidy with the city, but then to balance the provinces books dumped the full cost on the City.... which put quite a strain on the city coffers.

Compared to other transit systems, how we fund the TTC in Toronto is highly unusual in its lack of steady funding from higher levels of government, and its high dependence on the farebox. 

Toronto is highly unusual for similar cities of its size in how much of its budget comes from property taxes--most other cities get more funding from other sources. That we continue to operate the 4th largest city in North America with the absolute lowest property tax rate in the GTA with less outside financial assistance than most other large cities... well frankly, I think it's an indication that we actually manage better than most.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> We do it by cutting their budgets and firing them if they don't meet performance objectives.


And until we analyze each department, we really have no idea how much of a cut is realistic to make nor what those performance objectives should be.


----------



## Macfury

You are assuming they have no perfromance objectives. Meet existing performance objectives at a budget 1 per cent less.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> You are assuming they have no perfromance objectives. Meet existing performance objectives at a budget 1 per cent less.


You are assuming every department is overfunded.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> You are assuming every department is overfunded.


Yes, I am. Or if not overfunded, wasting at least 1% of the money they have at their disposal. I have worked with too many government bodies in business arrangements to believe that this isn't true. In most cases, I would probably have defunded and abolished large parts of these organizations if I had been given the power to do it. Nobody would have missed them.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Yes, I am.


I am not.

I assume some are overfunded and some are underfunded, and some could bring a great deal more benefit if they had more resources, and some could probably outsource what they do at lower cost.

I also don't know if some of these departments could become much more cost-effective with some one-time investment.

As such, I don't have enough information to know if the current performance targets, whatever they are, are good objectives to meet, nor do I know for sure which budgets could be reduced and which should be increased. Personally, I prefer it when people make informed decisions.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Yes, I am. Or if not overfunded, wasting at least 1% of the money they have at their disposal. I have worked with too many government bodies in business arrangements to believe that this isn't true. In most cases, I would probably have defunded and abolished large parts of these organizations if I had been given the power to do it. Nobody would have missed them.


Missed your edit. My experience with government has been much more of a mixed bag. And more to the point, it's unlikely that you or I have interacted with all parts of city government in enough of a way to have a complete sense of what is going on.

But sadly for you, the city cannot legally defund and abolish large parts of these organizations.


----------



## groovetube

amazing the assumptions based on pretty much nothing. A feeling. Dem government people are wasting 1%.

How much do private sector companies waste? The only way to force government departments to not waste a single dime, which is pretty much unrealistic given the size of say the TTC, etc., is to cut so drastically that running a shoestring budget causes massive service reductions, which would cause such a negative impact that this city would become pretty crap in short order.

Thankfully, enough people are smart enough to see past this facade of the ;gravy train', knowing full well it is mainly about redirecting money to another 'gravy train'.

The latest example of Ford running around like a 5 year old stamping his feet because he didn't understand basic math after shouting subways subways subways! If we thought there was a gravy train problem, just wait until (if) rob ford's inability to understand basic math creates far more debt and 30 years property tax increase commitments.

Much of the ford nation final conservative shouting is totally based on the assumption that the 'elites' (who the EFF is that anyway...) don't want a fiscally responsible government.

Total FAIL.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Missed your edit. My experience with government has been much more of a mixed bag. And more to the point, it's unlikely that you or I have interacted with all parts of city government in enough of a way to have a complete sense of what is going on.
> 
> But sadly for you, the city cannot legally defund and abolish large parts of these organizations.


Each department I have worked with demonstrated exactly the same attributes. I was shocked by their largesse. So I can't speak to all departments, just every department I have ever worked with at both the city and provincial level.

While they can't completely defund them, they can cut their budgets, and I believe it can be done with no pain, except on the part of the empire builders who run these departments.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Missed your edit. My experience with government has been much more of a mixed bag. And more to the point, it's unlikely that you or I have interacted with all parts of city government in enough of a way to have a complete sense of what is going on.
> 
> But sadly for you, the city cannot legally defund and abolish large parts of these organizations.


Perhaps I've worked with different departments. But I did a few feather large provincial projects, that every dime was accounted for, and I didn't get the sense there was any lax spending going on at all. Quite the opposite actually.

I haven't done any work with the city, but have a number of peers who have extensively. I don't see any lavish budgets there either.

Not saying it doesn't happen, I'm sure it does in some cases. But I think there's some assumptions being made based on, limited personal experience.

And you know how personal experience isn't well received around here...


----------



## Sonal

Certainly, my experience with buildings, planning and zoning suggests that they are very stretched. Given that Toronto's been having a building boom for quite some time, and that they have had to spend quite some time trying to amalgamate policies from the old cities into one consistent plan, that seems logical that they are understaffed.

On the other hand, given what I know about property management and looking at TCHC, it seems pretty clear that there's been a lot of waste, and now there is a huge repair backlog. Again, a big part of that was that the province downloaded close to half of backlog to begin with, but like virtually every other rental building in Toronto, the properties are for the most part at an age where major capital improvements are needed. Given that multi-res real estate is at an all-time high, one solution may be to sell off the properties, make some one-time cash, get the city out of the property management game, and let them instead pay a head lease to the owners and be advocates on behalf of the tenants.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Certainly, my experience with buildings, planning and zoning suggests that they are very stretched. Given that Toronto's been having a building boom for quite some time, and that they have had to spend quite some time trying to amalgamate policies from the old cities into one consistent plan, that seems logical that they are understaffed.
> 
> On the other hand, given what I know about property management and looking at TCHC, it seems pretty clear that there's been a lot of waste, and now there is a huge repair backlog. Again, a big part of that was that the province downloaded close to half of backlog to begin with, but like virtually every other rental building in Toronto, the properties are for the most part at an age where major capital improvements are needed. Given that multi-res real estate is at an all-time high, one solution may be to sell off the properties, make some one-time cash, get the city out of the property management game, and let them instead pay a head lease to the owners and be advocates on behalf of the tenants.


That's not a bad idea Sonal. 

Perhaps you should run


----------



## Sonal

Well there are possible problems in my plan.

1) I'm not sure what, if anything, the city makes from these buildings. TCHC tenants do have subsidized rent, but that does mean that some amount is coming in from the tenant, and if the city makes money from these assets, it may be short-sighted to sell. (Particularly if some investment in capital repair makes the property more efficient to operate--in my experience, that's often the case.) At the moment, the city is drawing money for the repair backlog from refinancing the mortgages on these assets, so down the road, that's another area where the city can draw capital.

2) I'm not sure how much control that the city can stipulate after selling these buildings to ensure that the rental space remains affordable housing. If they own it, they can ensure that forever. But should laws change down the road to become more landlord-friendly, who knows? Likewise, if the market changes and the landlord sells to someone who has (for whatever reason) no incentive to repair, again, who knows?

Still, with rental properties being sold at an all-time high, and the market in Toronto for any kind of rental property being really dry supply-wise, it's probably not a bad thing to consider. Those buildings are not going to repair themselves.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Certainly, my experience with buildings, planning and zoning suggests that they are very stretched. Given that Toronto's been having a building boom for quite some time, and that they have had to spend quite some time trying to amalgamate policies from the old cities into one consistent plan, that seems logical that they are understaffed.


It should be developer fee funded, not publicly funded. Typical wrong-headed approach by City Hall, failing to bring revenue in line with outlay.

I don't have much sympathy with their slowpoke approach to rationalizing the amalgamation. I saw some examples of what they were agonizing over. Shouldn't have taken more than a year. I attended a meeting with the last city planner, and it sounded like they just decided to grandfather a lot of it anyway.



Sonal said:


> On the other hand, given what I know about property management and looking at TCHC, it seems pretty clear that there's been a lot of waste, and now there is a huge repair backlog.


The city should not be in the housing business. Sell it all. If you think it's the city's job to subsidize low wage industries by keeping cheap labour in the city, then do it as rent subsidy.


----------



## Oakbridge

The problem that I see is that too often decision makers have switched from "what is the best overall decision?" to "what is the best decision on my watch?" This can make a huge difference, especially with regards to large areas of spending like public transit. It's probably been the major reason why the TTC is in the shape it's in. Nobody had the guts to make hard decisions years ago that would have put less of a burden on current spending requirements. 

Also the province dropping its portion of the funding was a huge mistake (another "let's make us look good today, damn the future" type decision). I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but I'd say that there is a measurable percentage of TTC ridership who are not Toronto taxpayers. They are 905ers. Although I probably use the TTC just a handful of times per year, I do use it and I'm in Oakville. I don't have an issue with my provincial tax dollars contributing to paying for transit in Toronto. Just as I don't have an issue with some of those same tax dollars paying for roads in Northern Ontario that I am probably funding. And we are paying for it. There are not enough tax dollars that are taken in on a regional basis to cover the costs in certain regions, even for barebones essential services. 

The scary thing that I see is that I don't think that anyone can expect to deal with this, either the municipal problems, the provincial problems, or the federal problems. They have become too big to resolve in one term of office, especially when reelection can take precedence over the right decision.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sonal said:


> Well, certainly for this example, the percentage to which the City subsidizes the TTC (which has historically been the lowest subsidy for any mass-transit system in North America) has been dropping, and services have had to be cut as a result.
> 
> This of course, is the operating budget, as the TTC is in need of significant capital investment just to maintain its existing infrastructure, not to mention the new investment.
> 
> Much of the problem with the City funding the TTC is that the province used to split the subsidy with the city, but then to balance the provinces books dumped the full cost on the City.... which put quite a strain on the city coffers.
> 
> Compared to other transit systems, how we fund the TTC in Toronto is highly unusual in its lack of steady funding from higher levels of government, and its high dependence on the farebox.
> 
> Toronto is highly unusual for similar cities of its size in how much of its budget comes from property taxes--most other cities get more funding from other sources. That we continue to operate the 4th largest city in North America with the absolute lowest property tax rate in the GTA with less outside financial assistance than most other large cities... well frankly, I think it's an indication that we actually manage better than most.


Valid points, Sonal. I know that in New York City, many are totally dependent upon public transportation to get to and from work.


----------



## Macfury

Oakbridge said:


> I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but I'd say that there is a measurable percentage of TTC ridership who are not Toronto taxpayers. They are 905ers.


If they pay what it cost to ride it, then this wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## CubaMark

I would pay serious money *not* to see this...

*Inevitable Rob Ford Porn Parody Is As Bad As You Might Think*



> The inevitable Rob Ford porn parody has finally arrived and, believe it or not, the story actually gets worse from there.
> 
> The website Wood Rocket has produced a sexually explicit video featuring two actors playing the infamous Toronto mayor (one for the bad jokes and one for the sex). In the clip, Ford makes Trailer Park Boys wisecracks, gets drunk, smokes crack and has sex with a prostitute (very NSFW link here).
> 
> More frightening, however, is a report from TMZ that porn studio Vivid Entertainment is making the real Ford an offer to appear in a sex tape. One of Vivid's actresses, Brandy Aniston, reportedly thinks Ford is "kinda cute."


(HuffPo)


----------



## groovetube

Oakbridge said:


> The problem that I see is that too often decision makers have switched from "what is the best overall decision?" to "what is the best decision on my watch?" This can make a huge difference, especially with regards to large areas of spending like public transit. It's probably been the major reason why the TTC is in the shape it's in. Nobody had the guts to make hard decisions years ago that would have put less of a burden on current spending requirements.
> 
> Also the province dropping its portion of the funding was a huge mistake (another "let's make us look good today, damn the future" type decision). I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, but I'd say that there is a measurable percentage of TTC ridership who are not Toronto taxpayers. They are 905ers. Although I probably use the TTC just a handful of times per year, I do use it and I'm in Oakville. I don't have an issue with my provincial tax dollars contributing to paying for transit in Toronto. Just as I don't have an issue with some of those same tax dollars paying for roads in Northern Ontario that I am probably funding. And we are paying for it. There are not enough tax dollars that are taken in on a regional basis to cover the costs in certain regions, even for barebones essential services.
> 
> The scary thing that I see is that I don't think that anyone can expect to deal with this, either the municipal problems, the provincial problems, or the federal problems. They have become too big to resolve in one term of office, especially when reelection can take precedence over the right decision.


Sure, but that is going to be the case in any major urban centre. This is why subsidies should come from the all 3 levels of government, not just the city itself. 

Transit is a very vital part of any healthy city, and as mentioned, the TTC is less funded than other similar cities in north america. That needs to change.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> If they pay what it cost to ride it, then this wouldn't be an issue.


Well you should be happy that ridership forms a substantially bigger portion of the TTC's funding than pretty much any other major transit system in the world.

But given that the economic benefit of the TTC goes beyond simple transportation for its users, and does tie directly to property values (among other benefits) it seems quite fair to add to its funding through money raised through property taxes and other government revune generators.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> But given that the economic benefit of the TTC goes beyond simple transportation for its users, and does tie directly to property values (among other benefits) it seems quite fair to add to its funding through money raised through property taxes and other government revune generators.


It does not seem fair to me. If I build a condominium near a shopping centre, should I expect them to subsidize the operation of the building because of the number of customers I've brought them? Should the owners of the Distillery District receive compensation for increasing land value in that area of the city? 

You're holding up an incidental benefit achieved by very few property owners and insisting that all taxpayers should band together to pay the city back for this great benefit reaped by Cadillac-Fairview. The City certainly never compensated property owners for a _decrease_ in property values spawned by some of their benighted projects.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> It does not seem fair to me. If I build a condominium near a shopping centre, should I expect them to subsidize the operation of the building because of the number of customers I've brought them? Should the owners of the Distillery District receive compensation for increasing land value in that area of the city?
> 
> You're holding up an incidental benefit achieved by very few property owners and insisting that all taxpayers should band together to pay the city back for this great benefit reaped by Cadillac-Fairview. The City certainly never compensated property owners for a _decrease_ in property values spawned by some of their benighted projects.


Well, the reason Cadillac-Fairview can build and manage such a wonderful mall is because the City allowed it... and we pay the city for that through increased tax revenue owing to assessed values rising. Likewise is the same for a condo development near a shopping centre, the development of the Distillery District in otherwise unused land (which the City is adding further value to through developing parks and roads), etc. 

But if values do go down due to city projects, well, that's a planning issue. So really, that demonstrates my earlier point of the value of planning going beyond developer services to be paid for solely by development fees. 

Granted, the current property tax system is a bit of a blunt tool in its complications (it tries to smooth out sudden rises and sudden dips) but the impact of changing that could be investigated.

But one of the reasons Toronto is an economically attractive place to live and do business is due to transit. So the value of transit--as stated earlier--goes beyond simple property values due to proximity. It affects the region as a whole.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> But one of the reasons Toronto is an economically attractive place to live and do business is due to transit. So the value of transit--as stated earlier--goes beyond simple property values due to proximity. It affects the region as a whole.


Then let those who use it and think it's great for their business pay for it.

And the reason Cadillac-Fairview can build that mall is not because the city allowed it--it's because the city decided not to prevent it. A big difference.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Then let those who use it and think it's great for their business pay for it.


I'd rather not rely on people's unfounded opinions over whether or not it's good for them. 



Macfury said:


> And the reason Cadillac-Fairview can build that mall is not because the city allowed it--it's because the city decided not to prevent it. A big difference.


Right, so the City didn't actively zone the area large-scale commercial and the City didn't approve the plans and the City didn't have to consult with the community, and the City didn't set the amount of parking required for that size of commercial space, and the City didn't agree to modify streets and curbs to allow access to the mall, and the City didn't have to agree to allow whatever was on the land previously to be demolished.... they just sat back and let it happen.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I'd rather not rely on people's unfounded opinions over whether or not it's good for them.


That's the basis of the current "progressive" philosophy that I find so odious--individuals are not to be trusted to do what is best for them. Not only that, they can't even begin to fathom what brings value to their lives.



Sonal said:


> Right, so the City didn't actively zone the area large-scale commercial and the City didn't approve the plans and the City didn't have to consult with the community, and the City didn't set the amount of parking required for that size of commercial space, and the City didn't agree to modify streets and curbs to allow access to the mall, and the City didn't have to agree to allow whatever was on the land previously to be demolished.... they just sat back and let it happen.


The city should not be so active in zoning to begin with. My opinion is that if you buy the land, have at it. Couldn't be much worse than the lakeshore condo wall achieved through intricate planning, or that monstrosity in North York on Yonge, between Sheppard and Finch.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> That's the basis of the current "progressive" philosophy that I find so odious--individuals are not to be trusted to do what is best for them.


I have no problem with individuals doing what's best for them if it affects only them. When it affects are larger populace, then government needs to step in to mediate competing interests and/or take the long view. 



Macfury said:


> The city should not be so active in zoning to begin with. My opinion is that if you buy the land, have at it. Couldn't be much worse than the lakeshore condo wall achieved through intricate planning, or that monstrosity in North York on Yonge, between Sheppard and Finch.


And the lakeshore wall of condos is a great example of what happens when you leave things to developers who buy the land and then go fight to override planning at the OMB and don't empower City planning with the ability to stop it. Or when the City does not have money and political will to make a better use of the land--we could have had a wonderful waterfront, but developers do not make any money that way, and so this is what we end up with.

North York's condo alley is by design. I don't think it's so bad.... but certainly, intensification like this along subway lines is most profitable to developers, as well as a way for which to achieve better density.... this is in sharp contrast to LRT where there can be more stops and low/medium rise development is still profitable to developers and still increases density. This is among the reasons planning recommends LRT, but was overrun by Mayor Ford.

Expect the same to happen in Scarborough when the subway is built, but to have an increase in low/medium rise along Eglinton following the LRT.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I have no problem with individuals doing what's best for them if it affects only them. When it affects are larger populace, then government needs to step in to mediate competing interests and/or take the long view.
> 
> 
> 
> And the lakeshore wall of condos is a great example of what happens when you leave things to developers who buy the land and then go fight to override planning at the OMB and don't empower City planning with the ability to stop it. Or when the City does not have money and political will to make a better use of the land--we could have had a wonderful waterfront, but developers do not make any money that way, and so this is what we end up with.
> 
> North York's condo alley is by design. I don't think it's so bad.... but certainly, intensification like this along subway lines is most profitable to developers, as well as a way for which to achieve better density.... this is in sharp contrast to LRT where there can be more stops and low/medium rise development is still profitable to developers and still increases density. This is among the reasons planning recommends LRT, but was overrun by Mayor Ford.
> 
> Expect the same to happen in Scarborough when the subway is built, but to have an increase in low/medium rise along Eglinton following the LRT.


We don't have much overlap at all. I'll just continue to fight the paternalism you embrace.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> We don't have much overlap at all. I'll just continue to fight the paternalism you embrace.


You mischaracterize me as a progressive. I'm a pragmatist. 

If everyone behaved rationally and reasonably all the time, if everyone informed themselves and thought critically, and debated things reasonably, there would be virtually no need for law or government. I'd love to live in that world, but outside of very small groups or short periods of time, that generally doesn't seem to be the case.... 

And so, I reluctantly conclude that we have to have some sort of law or governance in place.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> You mischaracterize me as a progressive. I'm a pragmatist.
> 
> If everyone behaved rationally and reasonably all the time, if everyone informed themselves and thought critically, and debated things reasonably, there would be virtually no need for law or government. I'd love to live in that world, but outside of very small groups or short periods of time, that generally doesn't seem to be the case....
> 
> And so, I reluctantly conclude that we have to have some sort of law or governance in place.


I didn't say you were a progressive--I like you well enough!

However, given the outcomes I've seen, I'm no longer pragmatic about paternalistic governments. This is not the city I signed up for.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> I have no problem with individuals doing what's best for them if it affects only them. *When it affects are larger populace, then government needs to step in to mediate competing interests and/or take the long view.*


This is where the value is. If people aren't willing to see the far reaching value of a well funded transit system, then many others will. It's impossible to make small groups of people happy in a large city, so that's why we democratically elect our councillors to represent the majority to do the things we want them to.

People like Rob and Doug Ford seem to constantly lament that the other councillors get in their way, and intimidate and threaten them at election time, but that's how things work, and thank god for that.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I didn't say you were a progressive--I like you well enough!
> 
> However, given the outcomes I've seen, I'm no longer pragmatic about paternalistic governments. This is not the city I signed up for.


I do agree that there are a number of instances where government goes too far, and is stupid. But they're only human, after all. 

That said, (this is not intended to be pointed, so I apologize if it seems that way) when I see people say they don't want to pay for things that help them because they don't think they are helped by them, when the evidence shows that it does help them--well, I'm likewise no longer pragmatic in that individual's ability make good decisions, particularly when such decisions affect society as a whole. That is also not the city I signed up for.

But it is absolutely a balancing act between the individual and the government.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> That said, (this is not intended to be pointed, so I apologize if it seems that way) when I see people say they don't want to pay for things that help them because they don't think they are helped by them, when the evidence shows that it does help them--well, I'm likewise no longer pragmatic in that individual's ability make good decisions, particularly when such decisions affect society as a whole. That is also not the city I signed up for.


I am not a fan of that sort of thinking. Does an increase in the value of my property mean anything if I can no longer afford to live in the house I love because property taxes have risen along with it?

Am I supposed to be excited about subway node developed if the grass in a formerly beloved park has been worn to muck from heavy foot traffic?

If you build some sort of community gymnasium near my house and I never use it because I enjoy other activities, people have told me that I should still be happy to pay for the joi de vivre it brings to others.

Should I be delighted to see my income constrained to pay for the pleasure of others when I'm having trouble making ends meet?

This is why I favour user fees over taxes. At least if I am running short of money I can avoid the activity that is putting me in the red. Almost all of the "societal benefits" I am receiving are those I would toss in the garbage can in a second.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I am not a fan of that sort of thinking. Does an increase in the value of my property mean anything if I can no longer afford to live in the house I love because property taxes have risen along with it?
> 
> Am I supposed to be excited about subway node developed if the grass in a formerly beloved park has been worn to muck from heavy foot traffic?
> 
> If you build some sort of community gymnasium near my house and I never use it because I enjoy other activities, people have told me that I should still be happy to pay for the joi de vivre it brings to others.
> 
> Should I be delighted to see my income constrained to pay for the pleasure of others when I'm having trouble making ends meet?
> 
> This is why I favour user fees over taxes. At least if I am running short of money I can avoid the activity that is putting me in the red. Almost all of the "societal benefits" I am receiving are those I would toss in the garbage can in a second.


If a mere increase in property tax makes your house unaffordable to you, I would suggest that the house has probably been unaffordable to you for some time now, and as such, you should be grateful for the increase value that allows you to achieve a greater profit when you sell and move somewhere else that better aligns with what you can afford. 

Some of your other examples are also examples of the kinds of short-sighted thinking that gives me less faith in the individual. Whether or not such things bring you joy isn't really the point. 

While it's true that local interests should be accounted for, and at times should override the larger interest, to always favour local or individual interest over society's interests makes for a society that cannot achieve very much on a big scale. And certainly, some projects need to be looked at a larger scale--certainly, water, roads, transit, urban planning, etc must take a macro view into account, which means that sometimes some local areas will have to take on for the team, so to speak. Otherwise, all we are left with is NIMBYism and nothing happens.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> If a mere increase in property tax makes your house unaffordable to you, I would suggest that the house has probably been unaffordable to you for some time now, and as such, you should be grateful for the increase value that allows you to achieve a greater profit when you sell and move somewhere else that better aligns with what you can afford.


Not at all. I have know many people who were living well and 15 years later, on a similar income, found they could no longer live well. Property taxes were the difference. Try this for instance. An electric company tells you that it is tripling the price of electricity. You balk because there are things you will no longer consider doing. The electric utility happily tells you that these activities are for the rich and that you have probably been living beyond your means for quite some time now. Alright with you?



Sonal said:


> I
> Whether or not such things bring you joy isn't really the point.


Someone else?



Sonal said:


> While it's true that local interests should be accounted for, and at times should override the larger interest, to always favour local or individual interest over society's interests makes for a society that cannot achieve very much on a big scale.


Society can, but not so expediently.



Sonal said:


> And certainly, some projects need to be looked at a larger scale--certainly, water, roads, transit, urban planning, etc must take a macro view into account, which means that sometimes some local areas will have to take on for the team, so to speak. Otherwise, all we are left with is NIMBYism and nothing happens.


Agreed to some degree. However, Pickering Airport comes to mind.


----------



## Macfury

I'm enjoying the thought exercise, Sonal. I always appreciate these exchanges with you.


----------



## macintosh doctor

I love it. Bills played at Rogers dome, got boo'd because Toronto is so classless. Then Rob ford shows up and the crowd went nuts and all the attention, is turned to him. People lined for photos and even the media on ground floor turned its attention to Rob. LOL
What made me even happier is the star is eating themselves alive with the article they wrote about how he still has support.
The Star is a horrible paper with a one mind track of hating Rob Ford.. I hope it their down fall. They even complained that he ate wings, seriously?! It's the weekend and football game.


----------



## groovetube

he's as popular as honey boo boo!

LOL


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> he's as popular as honey boo boo!
> 
> LOL


that is a direct reflection as choice the populous have.. You have Obama or you have Honey boo boo.. they chose the latter. it is a safer choice. .


----------



## groovetube

no the states actually -has- honey boo boo. Most popular tv show in America.

we have rob ford! Our very own, honey boo boo. No surprise he's popular, just for all the wrong reasons! :lmao:


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> no the states actually -has- honey boo boo. Most popular tv show in America.
> 
> we have rob ford! Our very own, honey boo boo. No surprise he's popular, just for all the wrong reasons! :lmao:


does not say much for Obama and his legacy..
"when Rob Ford a smack talking, crack smoking drinking mayor of Toronto is polling with greater numbers than Obama" LOL [ quote taken from Pierce Morgan, CNN]

not to mention : More Americans signed the petition to extradite Morgan back to UK than signed on to OBAMACARE... LOL


----------



## groovetube

That Rob Ford has been found to be a crack smoking fraud pains so much that every post about him magically turns into a Obama! Obama! Obama! screech, pretty much says everything.

American thread is over thataway>>>


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> That Rob Ford has been found to be a crack smoking fraud pains so much that every post about him magically turns into a Obama! Obama! Obama! screech, pretty much says everything.
> 
> American thread is over thataway>>>


YOU NEVER PROVIDED A LINK please do so and I shall copy and paste my post over there too.. :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

you know where it is. In the canadian thread you bitched about Obama, and now you're bitching about him here too. I know how threads can go on tangents here and there, but whoa, we get you dislike Obama now I think.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> no the states actually -has- honey boo boo. Most popular tv show in America.
> 
> we have rob ford! Our very own, honey boo boo. No surprise he's popular, just for all the wrong reasons! :lmao:


a more apt comparison would be Charlie Sheen. People still want to take pictures with him because his behaviour has made him infamous, and people want the keepsake for social media.

Rob Ford is our Charlie Sheen.

except without the charisma, genealogy or acting ability.

and in charge of a $9 billion dollar city budget and ambassador for Toronto.

 **face palm** 

----

a couple of great articles of Ford's fiscal record :

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford’s $100-million boondoggle: Editorial | Toronto Star

Rob Ford might have been out-saved by David Miller: James | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

So, a cross between honey boo boo, and charlie sheen!

Not sure that I'd open photoshop for that though


----------



## i-rui

thought this was an interesting watch :

Toronto?s Watergate? - Newsana


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> you know where it is. In the canadian thread you bitched about Obama, and now you're bitching about him here too. I know how threads can go on tangents here and there, but whoa, we get you dislike Obama now I think.


guilty as I was took your bait of Americana - when you brought up Honey boo boo.. so you started it :heybaby:


----------



## CubaMark

So.... murder, eh?

This just never stops....

*Rob Ford: Crack video motive for Smith murder, police told*












> The notorious crack video of Mayor Rob Ford was the motive for the murder of alleged gang member Anthony Smith, Toronto Police were told last May.
> 
> Newly released documents reveal this information surfaced in the early days of the scandal in statements to police detectives from Ford’s loyal “logistics director” David Price and former chief of staff Mark Towhey.
> 
> In one staggering claim, the police document states:
> 
> “Price disclosed that the cell phone containing the recording of interest belonged to the deceased (Anthony Smith) and that it was the motive for his murder,” the police document states, referring to claims Price made on May 17.
> 
> Smith, 21, was shot dead on King Street West on March 28, part of a gang dispute.
> 
> “Price stated that the male (Smith) died because of the phone,” the police documents state.
> 
> Based on newly released wiretap information, police intercepted calls on March 28 that made them dismiss the theory raised by Price.
> 
> Whether there is any merit today to this murder case connection and other claims Price and Towhey made in the early days of the scandal is unknown as Toronto police will not talk about their investigation.





> He was shot dead on March 28 near the Loki Lounge on King Street West in Toronto. Another man, Mohamed Khattak, was injured in the shooting. Smith, Khattak and a third man are pictured in a photo with Ford taken outside the Etobicoke crack house where the crack video was filmed on a cellphone in February.
> 
> The allegations in these Toronto police documents have not been tested in court.
> 
> The newly released documents are part of an application for a search warrant of Ford friend Alexander ‘Sandro’ Lisi, who faces charges of extortion in connection with his alleged attempt to retrieve the embarrassing video that shows his friend, the mayor, smoking crack cocaine and making homophobic and racial slurs. The Star does not know if Lisi acted on his own or if someone told him to track down the video.


(Toronto Star)


----------



## CubaMark

....and now there's this:

*Rob Ford wiretap documents involving crack tape released*

_*Toronto Mayor Rob Ford made attempts to buy the video* of him smoking crack and also allegedly used heroin in April of this year, newly released police wiretap documents suggest.

Ford allegedly offered Rexdale gang members $5,000 and a car in exchange for the video of the mayor "on the pipe," according to phone conversations between Dixon Road gang members intercepted by police in the Project Brazen 2 investigation.

Also on the wiretaps is a conversation about *Ford using marijuana and heroin in the early hours of April 20, 2013*.

The latest documents, including wiretaps from phone conversations, were ordered released by Superior Court Justice Ian Nordheimer. _​
(CBC)

*So he apparently tried to buy the tape that he hasn't seen or does not exist. Mmm-hmm.*


----------



## fjnmusic

i-rui said:


> a more apt comparison would be Charlie Sheen. People still want to take pictures with him because his behaviour has made him infamous, and people want the keepsake for social media.
> 
> Rob Ford is our Charlie Sheen.
> 
> except without the charisma, genealogy or acting ability.
> 
> and in charge of a $9 billion dollar city budget and ambassador for Toronto.
> 
> **face palm**
> 
> ----
> 
> a couple of great articles of Ford's fiscal record :
> 
> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford’s $100-million boondoggle: Editorial | Toronto Star
> 
> Rob Ford might have been out-saved by David Miller: James | Toronto Star


Not so much in charge anymore, I don't think. At least Charlie Sheen had tiger blood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## groovetube

pot and heroin 6 months ago?

Ford's lies are really catching up to him.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> pot and heroin 6 months ago?


Yep, we really ought to legalize crap like pot. It's part of the good times of life after all, isn't it?


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford may have offered $5,000 and car for ‘crack video’: new police documents | National Post


> The impunity felt by alleged drug traffickers and potential blackmail might explain why police took the allegations so seriously and highlight how Mr. Ford’s personal proclivities could impact his political role and made the mayor’s office vulnerable.


And that's where the real serious problems lie. So much for the theory that the police targeted him because he's rob ford...


----------



## groovetube

ha ha. Saw this on social media:



> "Did I shoot heroin? Probably... in one of my crack stupours."


----------



## Macfury

Maybe it was funnier when they told it.


----------



## i-rui

i thought it was pretty good. you can keep it going....

"did i try to buy back the crack video?...probably....in one of my heroin stupors"


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> i thought it was pretty good. you can keep it going....
> 
> "didi try to buy back the crack video?...probably....in one of my heroin stupors"


The gag is too old now--Ford's original was the topper.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> i thought it was pretty good. you can keep it going....
> 
> "didi try to buy back the crack video?...probably....in one of my heroin stupors"


He provides new entertainment every few weeks! Now come on I tells ya, what mayor has ever done that!


----------



## whatiwant

groovetube said:


> He provides new entertainment every few weeks! Now come on I tells ya, what mayor has ever done that!


Noooooooooooooobody!


----------



## kps

jawknee said:


> Noooooooooooooobody!


That needs a visual…


----------



## whatiwant

kps said:


> That needs a visual&#133;


Hahaha. Good one!


----------



## groovetube

That is pretty good.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> That needs a visual…


Somebody must have been smoking something when he made that crack about getting caught in the stew pot of African cannibals.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> Somebody must have been smoking something when he made that crack about getting caught in the stew pot of African cannibals.


That one was rich


----------



## fjnmusic

groovetube said:


> He provides new entertainment every few weeks! Now come on I tells ya, what mayor has ever done that!


Ralph Klein did all the time. An alcoholic rather than a crack smoker, his antics revealed themselves many times. There was the time he threw a bunch of pocket change at the homeless men in the Herb Jamison centre in the wee hours, for example (and I always thought he said he didn't believe in throwing money at the problem). He had a lot of supporters though. He also went from mayor to premier using the same shtick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sonal

Hey, good news.... probably not involved in murder!

It's come to this: “Our mayor’s gangster life? Yawn…”


----------



## rondini

fjnmusic said:


> Ralph Klein did all the time. An alcoholic rather than a crack smoker, his antics revealed themselves many times. There was the time he threw a bunch of pocket change at the homeless men in the Herb Jamison centre in the wee hours, for example (and I always thought he said he didn't believe in throwing money at the problem). He had a lot of supporters though. He also went from mayor to premier using the same shtick.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The big difference between Ralph and Ford, is that Ralph was not breaking the law in being a booze tank, and wasn't hanging around with felons!


----------



## Macfury

I _knew_ the Mayor wasn't a murderer!


----------



## i-rui

he's stopped the murder gravy train!!

(unfortunately the crack gravy train is running 24/7)


----------



## eMacMan

rondini said:


> The big difference between Ralph and Ford, is that Ralph was not breaking the law in being a booze tank, and wasn't hanging around with felons!


Uh he hung out with politicians. Those are just felons who became lawyers so they could stay out of jail. 

Other than blowing up and not replacing some hospitals at a time the need was sure to increase and indeed became critical, Ralph was a better than average premier. Not convinced the same can be said for Ford's mayoral stint but thankfully I do not live in TO, so I'm not really qualified to judge.


----------



## Paddy

eMacMan said:


> Uh he hung out with politicians. Those are just felons who became lawyers so they could stay out of jail.
> 
> Other than blowing up and not replacing some hospitals at a time the need was sure to increase and indeed became critical, Ralph was a better than average premier. Not convinced the same can be said for Ford's mayoral stint but thankfully I do not live in TO, so I'm not really qualified to judge.


Believe me, he's been a disaster as a mayor. We'll be paying through the nose for the Scarborough subway for years to come and his only "vision" for the city has been to stop the non-existent gravy train. His whole schtick is us vs them, suburb vs city/downtown "elites", "little guy" vs everyone else and not only has that served to further divide the city, it's making it dysfunctional. He wouldn't recognize true leadership if fell and hit him over the head.

Another real problem is that those who were cynical about politicians before all this happened are even more so now - which could result in even fewer people bothering to vote. And some are now so cynical that they might vote for him simply for the entertainment value.

A friend of mine was the AC Centre the other night for a game and came out after to find quite a crowd of mostly young people (20s/30s) around the entrance. He looked back to see that Ford was off to one side of the entrance against the wall, grinning like a madman, having his picture taken with all and sundry. He seemed to think it was because he was hugely popular, but my friend had the distinct impression that everyone was laughing AT Ford - that this was a lark, a picture with the class clown to post on Facebook and Twitter.

Really, when you stop to think about it - how completely ridiculous and utterly appalling is all of this? We've just become numb - as if beyond a certain depth, it really doesn't matter how deep the manure is. That's frightening - Toronto and its citizens deserve better and should demand better than this circus act thug and his evil brother.


----------



## JAMG

You will be paying for the Scarborough subway for years, because Scarborough is now Toronto.
I am disgusted by the sentiment that Scarborough does not deserve a subway because the downtown needs a relief line.

Someone suggested that you should go back to Transit City as it would put light rail all the way to Brampton.
as a Bramptonian, I can not take the Go because the few trains in the morning and the few trains at night don't match my schedule. Light rail might work in a neighbourhood but not across suburbs. 

Amazing watching council pretend that they are not covered in the crap they have been slinging since the last election.


----------



## whatiwant

JAMG said:


> You will be paying for the Scarborough subway for years, because Scarborough is now Toronto.
> I am disgusted by the sentiment that Scarborough does not deserve a subway because the downtown needs a relief line.
> 
> Someone suggested that you should go back to Transit City as it would put light rail all the way to Brampton.
> as a Bramptonian, I can not take the Go because the few trains in the morning and the few trains at night don't match my schedule. Light rail might work in a neighbourhood but not across suburbs.
> 
> Amazing watching council pretend that they are not covered in the crap they have been slinging since the last election.


I don't think that the OP doesn't think that Scarborough deserves a subway but rather that it 1) serves fewer people than the original plan given the few number of stops which are the existing RT and 2) will cost WAAAAY more than the original plan. It doesn't get anyone any further ahead in the long run, and we'll be paying for it for years to come.


----------



## groovetube

It's not about whether scarborough -deserves- a subway, that's just a bunch divisive crap game playing.

It comes down to what is the best bang for the buck that gives the most people a good transit line. When I listen to the fords screaming about streetcars on roads with cars, when clearly, there's no streetcars on roads in the proposed new scarborough LRT line, it takes the credibility of the fords right down to absolute, zero.

All the fords care about is their legacy, and getting Scarborough to vote for them, so that's why they're shovelling dung at people to create a wedge issue.

There are decent arguments for and against a subway in scarborough, it's just too bad the fords aren't capable of joining it.


----------



## Paddy

First off, to clarify - all of Toronto deserves decent transit. But all of Toronto shouldn't have subways - subways are best where the DENSITY supports them. The density of Scarborough does NOT support subways, and won't for a very long time, if ever. So, like the Sheppard Stub, it's not the best use of the limited resources.

The expected ridership of the Scarborough subway is about 40,000 per day. Do you realize that the Spadina STREETCAR carries more than 40,000 per day?

We had a good transit plan - with portions funded, and an enormous amount of study and effort put into it by those _who actually understand mass transit_. And suddenly, in a move that was purely and ONLY political, we get city hall, led by the Bozo Brothers, abandoning all that careful work by people who actually know what they're doing. It's breathtakingly stupid.

As for the "downtown" relief line - as Royson James has recently pointed out, the people this line would help are NOT the people who live downtown! It's all the people who live elsewhere and need to get downtown for work who would hugely benefit from it. Anybody who has ridden the Yonge St. subway line recently knows and understands the issues - it's horribly overcrowded during rush hours, with constant delays and apologies "for the inconvenience" - my husband rants about it almost daily. And it's only going to get worse when the Eglinton LRT dumps yet more passengers onto it, and the density on the entire Yonge St. corridor continues to increase as the city allows more and more monster condos along all the major arteries.

Transit City was a good plan - the piece-meal planning that is going on now, fueled by political bias, is going to be more expensive and less effective. If you want to see just how much more expensive and what we could have done with the money instead, see: Subway vs LRT: You Do the Math on Scarborough Transit | politics | Torontoist

I can only begin to imagine what my great-uncle, who was GM of the TTC during the 50s and responsible for much of the subway construction in that period, would have to say about Rob Ford and his cronies.


----------



## groovetube

Paddy said:


> First off, to clarify - all of Toronto deserves decent transit. But all of Toronto shouldn't have subways - subways are best where the DENSITY supports them. The density of Scarborough does NOT support subways, and won't for a very long time, if ever. So, like the Sheppard Stub, it's not the best use of the limited resources.
> 
> The expected ridership of the Scarborough subway is about 40,000 per day. Do you realize that the Spadina STREETCAR carries more than 40,000 per day?
> 
> We had a good transit plan - with portions funded, and an enormous amount of study and effort put into it by those _who actually understand mass transit_. And suddenly, in a move that was purely and ONLY political, we get city hall, led by the Bozo Brothers, abandoning all that careful work by people who actually know what they're doing. It's breathtakingly stupid.
> 
> As for the "downtown" relief line - as Royson James has recently pointed out, the people this line would help are NOT the people who live downtown! It's all the people who live elsewhere and need to get downtown for work who would hugely benefit from it. Anybody who has ridden the Yonge St. subway line recently knows and understands the issues - it's horribly overcrowded during rush hours, with constant delays and apologies "for the inconvenience" - my husband rants about it almost daily. And it's only going to get worse when the Eglinton LRT dumps yet more passengers onto it, and the density on the entire Yonge St. corridor continues to increase as the city allows more and more monster condos along all the major arteries.
> 
> Transit City was a good plan - the piece-meal planning that is going on now, fueled by political bias, is going to be more expensive and less effective.
> 
> I can only begin to imagine what my great-uncle, who was GM of the TTC during the 50s and responsible for much of the subway construction in that period, would have to say about Rob Ford and his cronies.


Good post.

The very fact that the doofus bros have found it necessary to blatantly lie (since no one, not even those two could be THAT stupid...) to make an argument for the scarborough subway should raise some red flags. It's not about what scarborough needs, it's about getting elected.

And everyone in Toronto will be paying for this expensive boondoggle for 30 years.


----------



## Macfury

Thank goodness Transit City is permanently off the agenda!


----------



## JAMG

The only people who like light rail are those who think they can campaign on having gotten more for less.

No one on public transit wants something that can be stopped by weather or a traffic collision. GO service is terrible during January and February when the track switches freeze.

As for population, as soon as the Subway goes to Scarborough, you will see more construction towers going up so fast that Adam Vaughn will want to change wards.


----------



## groovetube

Um. There's no traffic on the lrt.

Out of curiosity, how does the current lrt do in the winter? Streetcars even? 

I don't recall them being as bad as the GO train since well, they're not the GO train!

In any case, I think subways are great! But we just can't afford them. I'm amazed at the crowd who seem so frugal, and so intent that riders pay for them, be so for a subway, that will never pay for itself, and we'll all be saddled with about a percent hike every year for 30 years! :clap:


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> It's not about whether scarborough -deserves- a subway, that's just a bunch divisive crap game playing.
> 
> It comes down to what is the best bang for the buck that gives the most people a good transit line. When I listen to the fords screaming about streetcars on roads with cars, when clearly, there's no streetcars on roads in the proposed new scarborough LRT line, it takes the credibility of the fords right down to absolute, zero.
> 
> All the fords care about is their legacy, and getting Scarborough to vote for them, so that's why they're shovelling dung at people to create a wedge issue.
> 
> There are decent arguments for and against a subway in scarborough, it's just too bad the fords aren't capable of joining it.


nothing is worse for traffic than street cars and LRT splitting the street down the middle, not to mention [ nothing is faster than subways ]

every where there is LRT or dedicated streetcars - has killed business and made traffic a mess.. look at Roncy or St. Clair - its a jam and mess.. During the process of building dedicated transits - 10-20% of business half closed or in a downturn and headed for closing.. 

Any World Class City has subways, its the only logical transit, plus do you expect someone to jump on a street car and take 3 hours for their journey ? Lord have mercy, I would expect to be in a Tropical country after a trip of that length..


----------



## groovetube

That's fantastic since the funded LRT wasn't going to share the road with traffic!

And it might surprise you to learn when you travel that world class cities, also make extensive use of LRTs as well.

This line about world class cities only using subways is just another brainless one from Ford. But people will believe anything that proven liar says I guess!


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> Any World Class City has subways, its the only logical transit, plus do you expect someone to jump on a street car and take 3 hours for their journey ?


Even living within a short walk of a subway station, I can still get where I need to go faster by car, but I will take it on occasion when some damned street festival or other prevents me from driving where I need to go. Bus and streetcar? Forget it. If you must build something, then build dedicated underground systems--whether subway or FULLY underground LRT.


On the good news front for Olivia Chow, this loser just endorsed her:

George Smitherman, Deepa Mehta endorse Olivia Chow for mayor | Toronto Star


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> Even living within a short walk of a subway station, I can still get where I need to go faster by car, but I will take it on occasion when some damned street festival or other prevents me from driving where I need to go. Bus and streetcar? Forget it. If you must build something, then build dedicated underground systems--whether subway or FULLY underground LRT.
> 
> 
> On the good news front for Olivia Chow, this loser just endorsed her:
> 
> George Smitherman, Deepa Mehta endorse Olivia Chow for mayor | Toronto Star


can't watt till the star endorses smitherman for endorsing chow.. chow the one who was worried about our reputation in communist china because of Ford LOL..


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> can't watt till the star endorses smitherman for endorsing chow.. chow the one who was worried about our reputation in communist china because of Ford LOL..


I can't wait until convicted criminal Conrad Black endorses Ford. They seem to have a lot in common.

LOL


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> I can't wait until convicted criminal Conrad Black endorses Ford. They seem to have a lot in common.
> 
> LOL


at least they don't steal from the people but from themselves LOL
so I will take a stealing conservative rather than a Liberal or NDP who steals from tax payers. LOL
Wynn's Liberals killed 3 power plants and cost the us the people 1billion + and claims our electricity is the cheapest around LOL my bills have gone up over double they are so cheap since she came to power.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> at least they don't steal from the people but from themselves LOL
> so I will take a stealing conservative rather than a Liberal or NDP who steals from tax payers. LOL


I'm sorry you'll have to try typing that out again.

You haven't addressed Ford's lies that the scarborough LRT would interfere with traffic. When in fact it was to have it's own dedicated track much like the current one.

You didn't actually buy his load of crap did you? The one where it'll cost us billions more? 

And it appears you bought the line about world class cities only building subways. I suppose Rob Ford was counting on people never having actually visited those cities or looking into that lie eh?


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> at least they don't steal from the people but from themselves LOL
> so I will take a stealing conservative rather than a Liberal or NDP who steals from tax payers. LOL
> Wynn's Liberals killed 3 power plants and cost the us the people 1billion + and claims our electricity is the cheapest around LOL my bills have gone up over double they are so cheap since she came to power.


Remember that LRT was already fully funded--mostly by people living outside of the city!


----------



## i-rui

I can't wait until Olivia Chow gets elected in and Ford Nation's collective head explodes.

they'll deserve it for backing this loser through and through.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> I can't wait until Olivia Chow gets elected in and Ford Nation's collective head explodes.
> 
> they'll deserve it for backing this loser through and through.


No kidding. Let the sideshow be sidelined.

Although I'm sure the bellowing from he sidelines will be loud. This media monster will take some time to fizzle out.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> No kidding. Let the sideshow be sidelined.
> 
> Although I'm sure the bellowing from he sidelines will be loud. This media monster will take some time to fizzle out.


The howls and shrieks of 'socialism!' will be heard as far away as Calgary LOL.


----------



## JAMG

No way the former suburbs of Toronto elect Olivia Chow...
I don't think you will ever see a downtown mayor again.


----------



## groovetube

Tell us how the LRT is like streetcars again.


----------



## mrjimmy

JAMG said:


> No way the former suburbs of Toronto elect Olivia Chow...
> I don't think you will ever see a downtown mayor again.


Ahh, something about some last words being famous.


----------



## groovetube

They've drunk the screw you downtown Kool aid from Ford. They spout all this crap and lies, I suspect they even know it's bull, but it's just about stickin it to the latte sipping pinkos.

To me, most people I know around here, aren't really a whole lot different than way up there or to the side. I don't have any problem voting for a mayor if he or she is from the 'suburbs', it's all Toronto now.

I just want a mayor that isn't such a douchbag liar. Not much to ask really


----------



## macintosh doctor

Any transit that takes 3 hours to get somewhere is pointless. 
Subways are the way to go.


----------



## groovetube

The Scarborough lrt takes 3 hours? :lmao:


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford claims he was the target of a political vendetta by Toronto Police chief Bill Blair in new interview with Conrad Black | National Post

This guy is just insane. The police chief is out to get him. Never mind the fact that he was watched over and over picking 'packages' without getting arrested, which if convicted he'd be turfed from office apparently. 

It's because he just wanted to save money. See that's it. The big bad meanies want to get rid of him because he's the big angel of saving money. And there are lots of people, who desperately want to believe in a unicorn with wings, whispering sweet nothings in their ears.

This will make quite the movie...


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> The Scarborough lrt takes 3 hours? :lmao:


I remember when I was young - that was the issue, since then never looked back
Bought my first car at 20. 

Even today, every time I take it 1-3 hours. I must be lucky delays happen when I am on it.


----------



## Macfury

macintosh doctor said:


> I remember when I was young - that was the issue, since then never looked back
> Bought my first car at 20.
> 
> Even today, every time I take it 1-3 hours. I must be lucky delays happen when I am on it.


Same here. I will use the People's Republic of Tranist only in an emergency.Even with the city deliberately limiting street parking, I'm much happier driving.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> Same here. I will use the People's Republic of Tranist only in an emergency.Even with the city deliberately limiting street parking, I'm much happier driving.


my favorite delays are the driver stops in mid traffic and goes for a coffee. LOL
can't do that with a subway.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> Rob Ford claims he was the target of a political vendetta by Toronto Police chief Bill Blair in new interview with Conrad Black | National Post
> 
> This guy is just insane. The police chief is out to get him. Never mind the fact that he was watched over and over picking 'packages' without getting arrested, which if convicted he'd be turfed from office apparently.
> 
> It's because he just wanted to save money. See that's it. The big bad meanies want to get rid of him because he's the big angel of saving money. And there are lots of people, who desperately want to believe in a unicorn with wings, whispering sweet nothings in their ears.
> 
> This will make quite the movie...


police are "out to get" criminals....funny how that works....


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> police are "out to get" criminals....funny how that works....


At what point were the police supposed to arrest him during their surveillance?


----------



## i-rui

oh, i definitely think there's a case to be made they bungled the surveillance and missed opportunities where they could have searched his vehicle.

but I doubt you're *honestly* making the assertion that his activity was on the up & up.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> oh, i definitely think there's a case to be made they bungled the surveillance and missed opportunities where they could have searched his vehicle.
> 
> but I doubt you're *honestly* making the assertion that his activity was on the up & up.


Bungled or not, I'm asking whether you think he did something while under surveillance that warranted an arrest.


----------



## i-rui

they had reasonable grounds to search his vehicle after Lisi dropped off suspicious packages. if they had found illegal drugs, then that would have warranted arrest. I'm sure a high priced lawyer could get him off those charges, but it's pretty clear they could have charged him if they wanted to. 

Perhaps they didn't want to blow their cover on a lesser charge, and were looking for something more serious. but i'm still not sure why they didn't wiretap RoFo's phone if that were the case.


----------



## Macfury

So the police can arrest you over receiving packages? Interesting.


----------



## eMacMan

i-rui said:


> ...but i'm still not sure why they didn't wiretap RoFo's phone if that were the case.


CSET and NSA wiretaps were already sucking all the available signal? Da Mayor was using a disposable burner?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> So the police can arrest you over receiving packages? Interesting.


yes, they could arrest you for possession if those packages contained something that was illegal. as i said before a high priced lawyer would most likely get someone off in those circumstances, but the police have every right to charge and arrest someone for possession.


----------



## Macfury

If they thought those packages contained something illegal, they were obligated to arrest him.


----------



## groovetube

macintosh doctor said:


> I remember when I was young - that was the issue, since then never looked back
> Bought my first car at 20.
> 
> Even today, every time I take it 1-3 hours. I must be lucky delays happen when I am on it.


when was that, 1931? 

it doesn't take 3 hours to get anywhere anymore. Not unless you're in a car on the DVP or the Gardner. My nephew who live way the heck up in scarberia (the upper north part where they actually call it scarberia themselves...) works in a downtown auto dealer, it takes him about an hour and a bit. 3 hours is bull.

So lets recap on the mistruths. First we heard how we don't want the streetcar like thing that gets held up in traffic.

Except, there is not streetcar plan, and the LRT is on a dedicated line that does NOT share the road with traffic at all. Basically, just like a subway, simply above ground.

It takes 3 hours to get anywhere. Perhaps in 1930 in grandpas wind up studenaker. But otherwise bullcrap.

Everyone else was going to pay for the LRT. More stupidity, likely started by captain liar Ford. Because now not only are all Ontarians going to help pay for the subway, but so are the rest of all Canada, and on top of that, a double whammy for all GTA residents, because not only will we be paying for it through our federal, and provincial taxes, but we will also be treated to about a 1 percent (likely gonna be more...) property tax hike, _for the next 30 years._

There's suddenly (magically?) gonna be office towers and huge expansion because of the subway. 


Really? Ever take a gander at the huge expansion and office towers at the extended subway past cox well out to kennedy? Right! There is none! What makes you think they will do it past Kennedy? Right, maybe the Ford brothers told you...

And to top it all off, even by those rail against any kind of subsidies for transit, this subway, from the get go, is never going to get anywhere close to capacity. Not even close. Nor will ever sustain itself, becoming a huge cash sucker, which is going to add to that little property tax hit every year for 30 years. There are those who believe that somehow the attraction will bring more people to use it. A few problems. For one, the route the subway will take (as opposed to the LRT) will serve far fewer people. Because if there's one thing I know, having lived near subways stops (as I do now) if you don't live within a reasonable distance to it, that little 5 or 10 minute savings at the transfer point, is up in smoke.

Personally, I'm not against subway expansion. But the reasons, for spending so many billions of dollars needs to be talked about, based on facts, truth, not this pile of lies that gets trotted out each time. One of the very few points that was brought up by someone here some time ago that had any legs (by Sonal I believe) was the elimination of a transfer point. But I think it's a pretty expensive way to eliminate a transfer point, given all subways have transfer points to change lines.

So far, I haven't seen a well reasoned argument for spending all that money on a subway out in scarborough. One without the BS lies pouched by the Fprd brothers, who seem only too happy to spend billions of your tax money, simply to get re-elected.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> they had reasonable grounds to search his vehicle after Lisi dropped off suspicious packages. if they had found illegal drugs, then that would have warranted arrest. I'm sure a high priced lawyer could get him off those charges, but it's pretty clear they could have charged him if they wanted to.
> 
> Perhaps they didn't want to blow their cover on a lesser charge, and were looking for something more serious. but i'm still not sure why they didn't wiretap RoFo's phone if that were the case.


Absolutely. I'm not sure how anyone would wonder if police have a reason to search, if they are watching a known drug dealer handing packages to another person in a car. Police search vehicles if they even suspect the occupants might have drugs all the time.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford, Toronto Star battle hits incredible new low as paper says mayor called reporter a pedophile | National Post

Wow. Just how low will this human garbage go? Apparently pretty low!


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Rob Ford, Toronto Star battle hits incredible new low as paper says mayor called reporter a pedophile | National Post
> 
> Wow. Just how low will this human garbage go? Apparently pretty low!


"But, in the end, Ford outdid Lord with his ugly attack on Mr. Dale. The mayor said he doesn’t like it when his critics “get personal,” presumably about his drug use, deceptions and other misbehaviour. He showed no such scruples when he got personal about Mr. Dale and jeopardized a young man’s good name.

Watching him on TV, it was hard not to think of the famous words of lawyer Joseph Welch when he confronted anti-Communist crusader Joseph McCarthy at the Army-McCarthy hearings in 1954. McCarthy had accused a young attorney in Welch’s firm of having once been a member of a supposed Communist front group.

“Have you no decency, sir, at long last?” said Welch. “Have you left no sense of decency?”

In this case, the answer would appear to be no."

Shameful on the part of both Mayor Ford and His Lordship. tptptptp

Rob Ford, Conrad Black and the death of decency - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

Imagine how angry people would be if Ford actually called Dale a pedophile!


----------



## Paddy

Dr.G. said:


> "But, in the end, Ford outdid Lord with his ugly attack on Mr. Dale. The mayor said he doesn’t like it when his critics “get personal,” presumably about his drug use, deceptions and other misbehaviour. He showed no such scruples when he got personal about Mr. Dale and jeopardized a young man’s good name.
> 
> Watching him on TV, it was hard not to think of the famous words of lawyer Joseph Welch when he confronted anti-Communist crusader Joseph McCarthy at the Army-McCarthy hearings in 1954. McCarthy had accused a young attorney in Welch’s firm of having once been a member of a supposed Communist front group.
> 
> “Have you no decency, sir, at long last?” said Welch. “Have you left no sense of decency?”
> 
> In this case, the answer would appear to be no."
> 
> Shameful on the part of both Mayor Ford and His Lordship. tptptptp
> 
> Rob Ford, Conrad Black and the death of decency - The Globe and Mail


I loathe Black (I refuse to dignify him further with "Lord") and Ford - they're two peas in a pod, though Black has a better grasp of grammar. Both are completely lacking in the morality and decency department. Ford, in the 4 p.m. news conference today, says he "stands by every word" of the Black interview - just like all the other nasty bits of innuendo and bald-faced lies he and Doug have continued to spout.

It's too bad that the National Post gives Black a platform for his pompous nonsense - it's not as if he owns it anymore.


----------



## Sonal

Does Conrad Black still live on the Bridlepath? I suppose that means he's only a midtown elite.

And do you have to be south of Bloor to be part of the downtown elite, or does Rosedale count?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Imagine how angry people would be if Ford actually called Dale a pedophile!


Imagine if Ford had enough class & dignity to not imply it!


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> Imagine if Ford had enough class & dignity to not imply it!


True! Then there could be a real slander suit filed against him.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Does Conrad Black still live on the Bridlepath? I suppose that means he's only a midtown elite.
> 
> And do you have to be south of Bloor to be part of the downtown elite, or does Rosedale count?


I've been told that York Mills is the demarcation for Northern Ontario.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> True! Then there could be a real slander suit filed against him.


ah but he insinuated that Dale was taking pictures of his kids in his home. That starts to go past the grey area. Ford is playing a little game of words, but if he's not careful, he's going to get bit.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> ah but he insinuated that Dale was taking pictures of his kids in his home. That starts to go past the grey area. Ford is playing a little game of words, but if he's not careful, he's going to get bit.


True ........... but bitten he shall get for something he has/will say/do. We shall see.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> Does Conrad Black still live on the Bridlepath? I suppose that means he's only a midtown elite.
> 
> And do you have to be south of Bloor to be part of the downtown elite, or does Rosedale count?


Phew! I'm about 4 or so streets away from being a downtown elite! Or, am I screwed...?



Dr.G. said:


> True ........... but bitten he shall get for something he has/will say/do. We shall see.
> 
> Paix, mon ami.


Very true G. It seems he's playing some games skating the edge in his hatred for the star. But I don't think he's a very cunning linguist despite the bragging so that may get him into trouble.


----------



## Dr.G.

We shall see, gt. I do wish him well on losing weight, however.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> We shall see, gt. I do wish him well on losing weight, however.


Losing pounds is a super tough thing to do. I only had to lose a roll a few years back, and that was tough. I can't imagine losing 30 or even a 100 pounds. 

But in Ford's case, if he doesn't address his addiction problems, which it's pretty much a given he has it, -bad-... his weight will be the least of his problems. 

If he came clean about his drug addiction and alcoholism and took it on, even I, would send a tweet cheering him on.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> Losing pounds is a super tough thing to do. I only had to lose a roll a few years back, and that was tough. I can't imagine losing 30 or even a 100 pounds.
> 
> But in Ford's case, if he doesn't address his addiction problems, which it's pretty much a given he has it, -bad-... his weight will be the least of his problems.
> 
> If he came clean about his drug addiction and alcoholism and took it on, even I, would send a tweet cheering him on.


Well, I wish him well in becoming drug and alcohol free as well. We shall see.


----------



## JAMG

So after 3 or 4 years of media and politicians slinging innuendo at Ford, He has suddenly caused the Death of Dignity????

If you are looking for the death of dignity, turn around and look back a few years. Funny how quickly people cry for an apology when their tactics are turned on them. Ford is a train wreck, but he is still more popular over all than the rest of council. The funny part is watching the media try and fail to convince anyone to change their opinions. Ford Support is not changing, Ford Haters are not changing and everyone else wishes the media would just shut up.


----------



## groovetube

yeah all except what the media reported about ford was TRUE.

Then Ford's response is to accuse one of the media of taking pictures of his kids and insinuates that he's a pedophile?

Yeah that's the same thing...


----------



## i-rui

how dare the media report the truth!


----------



## Dr.G.

i-rui said:


> how dare the media report the truth!


.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> how dare the media report the truth!


No kidding! 

How irresponsible of them :lmao:. Unbelievable _anyone_ thinks this way.


----------



## groovetube

This one's gonna bite him in the ass, time to get some popcorn, because I have a feeling that whether or not Dale decides to sue Ford or not, in the next while this isn't going to play well for him.


----------



## groovetube

Look at the way he hands out candy to the kids. Nice...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjaN_rkzqvM#t=61


----------



## Macfury

Yep. He doesn't even hand out candy the way a mayor should. This is just turning into sour grapes from the Smitherman crew.


----------



## i-rui

i think all we're saying is it would just be nice if he was house trained...

you know, with him being mayor and all...


----------



## groovetube

apparently that's too much to ask!


----------



## Sonal

JAMG said:


> Ford is a train wreck, but he is still more popular over all than the rest of council. The funny part is watching the media try and fail to convince anyone to change their opinions. Ford Support is not changing, Ford Haters are not changing and everyone else wishes the media would just shut up.


Context:

Norm Kelly's approval rating higher than Mayor Ford | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun


----------



## i-rui

Doug Ford making it rain in a public housing complex :

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...g-out-cash-will-stick-to-gift-cards-1.2461797


----------



## groovetube

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...ale_tells_us_why_hes_taking_legal_action.html

And Daniel Dale is suing Rob Ford.

Good on him, anyone that makes public accusations like that unfounded, should be held to account without question in my opinion.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> Doug Ford making it rain in a public housing complex :
> 
> Doug Ford sorry for handing out cash, will stick to gift cards - Toronto - CBC News


At least these people got what they needed instead of what some progressive thinks is best for them.


----------



## groovetube

20 bucks eh. 

Just what they needed! 

In all seriousness, I don't think anyone can compare a gift card to timmy's, or 20 bucks, to what 'progressives' might consider important, things like housing, food, the basics to survive. None of which will do much with 20 bucks.

But this conversation is far more complex than merely talking about handouts. But then wasn't it the conservatives that killed a child care program and gave a 100 dollar credit and called that a child care program? Or perhaps thought moms should simply stay at home or something?

Personally, I'm more for systemic changes that allow people on the lower income side to take charge and pay for things themselves instead of handouts. But, just may be a bit too... progressive


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

Good dancer eh?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsQdgpRAcRU#t=54]Rob Ford @ Church - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## kps

The poor bastard can't take a crap without someone sticking a video phone in his face…or elsewhere.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Personally, I'm more for systemic changes that allow people on the lower income side to take charge and pay for things themselves instead of handouts. But, just may be a bit too... progressive


That's hilarious. "Taking charge" by taking handouts!


----------



## screature

groovetube said:


> Rob Ford: Daniel Dale tells us why he's taking legal action | Toronto Star
> 
> And Daniel Dale is suing Rob Ford.
> 
> Good on him, anyone that makes public accusations like that unfounded, should be held to account without question in my opinion.


He is suing him, but based on what Ford said I don't think Dale stands a chance of winning. The bar for proving defamation is set very high and based on what I saw and heard I think a judge will be pretty hard pressed to accept that as grounds for conviction.


----------



## groovetube

Really? Accusing someone of 'taking picture of kids', then going on to insinuate he a pedophile, he hasn't a chance at winning??


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> That's hilarious. "Taking charge" by taking handouts!


You need to read that agin. I suggested the opposite of handouts.

Your plan, encourages more to need handouts.


----------



## groovetube

kps said:


> The poor bastard can't take a crap without someone sticking a video phone in his face…or elsewhere.


Oh poor rob ford. He paints a big target on his back, and then whines people are after him! :lmao:


----------



## mrjimmy

kps said:


> The poor bastard can't take a crap without someone sticking a video phone in his face…or elsewhere.


Comes with the job.


----------



## kps

mrjimmy said:


> Comes with the job.


I'm just sayi'n. I have no respect for paparazzi like behaviour on the part of everyone who runs across Ford's train wreck of a term in office. Don't misunderstand that as defending him or his behaviour. As groove says, he painted a target on his back, but it does not mean you have to pull the trigger every time he steps into your sights.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> You need to read that agin. I suggested the opposite of handouts.


Programs and tax credits are handouts.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> Programs and tax credits are handouts.


once again, not all all what I suggested.


----------



## i-rui

Ford just apologized to Daniel Dale at council. 

"I certainly did not intend to suggest that he is a pedophile. I was merely commenting on the thoughts that went through my mind. I wish to sincerely apologzie to Mr. Dale if my actual words have caused any harm or personal offence."

quite the about face from a few days ago where he snorted that he stood by what he said. i guess his lawyer told him he was going to lose the libel case.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

What the hell?

Why don't we shoot politicians like this?
Why doesn't social services take his children away?

In isolated places thousands of miles away, they are laughing at Canada and Canadians due to Toronto's Ford Fiasco. The reputation of Canada and Canadians internationally is anything but positive, and continues to get worse every year.


----------



## groovetube

Perhaps he should also schedule a US news appearance since he mouthed off to the US public about this as well.

Bullies just never learn do they.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

Harper Conservatives claim to be anti - drugs, tough on crime, and want harsh consequences. When their own do it, well that is forgivable. The Fords should take lessons from their comrade Cocaine burner Baloney Mulroney on how to cover their tracks better. 

No wonder I never liked Toronto. Those POS Fords still have lots of support. What an embarrassment. They act like a lot of the people from Toronto that I despise. This piece of work would never get more than low single digit percentage support and only as a protest vote. In other places human garbage like him and his brother would have been charged and imprisoned long ago, and rightly so. The huge support these disgusting corrupt bullies still have says volumes about Toronto, none of it anything good either.

The Trailer Park boys really were running a major Canadian city. Good for city council for doing what they could to stop them. Watching Toronto City hall is worse than the Jerry Spring show. If Godzilla comes out of lake Ontario and does a romp through the city it would be less weird.

I hope that the police and legal system are able to lock up these two on serious charges for a long long time. Hopefully they are doing a big investigation on them and by not arresting them or charging them, they are giving the Fords more and more rope to hang themselves with.

The Fords might know of higher ups in the police department that are doing things they should not be doing. Are they keeping the pigs at bay with threats of exposing them for who knows what.

They want to replace what they call the gravy train with the Ford Garbage Truck. Al Capone was getting away with an endless string of crimes. While he got away with most of them they got him on tax evasion of all things. The Fords are doing so many things wrong that eventually they will get into serious trouble that they will not be able to get away with.

I feel sorry for the good sensible folks in Toronto that have to put up with this. No decent human being could be a Rob Ford supporter.


----------



## i-rui

wonderful blog on the many broken promises and lies of Rob Ford :

The Grid TO | The Keenan Wire

the man has the integrity of a broken condom.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> wonderful blog on the many broken promises and lies of Rob Ford :
> 
> The Grid TO | The Keenan Wire
> 
> the man has the integrity of a broken condom.


Yet despite all of this, I am better off under Rob Ford. Works for me!


----------



## macintosh doctor

I hope Ford's Lawyers teach Dale - a lesson in Court..
sorry but either Dale is a peeping tom or a child stocker and needs his ass handed to him.. [ no excuses ] 
being on public property does not give you the right to freak out Neighbors and Ford's family.. 
if you are researching about the land he was going to buy, then why do you need to look over fences and take pictures into private homes?


----------



## i-rui

The police already investigated the incident. They found that there was no evidence that Dale did any of what Ford claimed he was doing. To be specific, he was not leering over his fence, nor taking pictures of his backyard or children.

That's actually quite a bit of ammunition for Dale's lawsuit since it debunks Ford's claims of events. In fact, I'm pretty sure the evolving inconsistencies in Fords description of the event strengthens Dale's case as well as Ford's history of outright lying about incidents involving himself.


----------



## MazterCBlazter

Witnesses have said that Dale did not do anything that Ford accused him of. It was all typical Ford Bullying and BS.

Hopefully this will start a string of Ford getting dragged into court and losing again and again. Couldn't happen to anyone more deserving.


----------



## CubaMark

macintosh doctor said:


> I hope Ford's Lawyers teach Dale - a lesson in Court..
> sorry but either Dale is a peeping tom or a child stocker and needs his ass handed to him.. [ no excuses ]...


md, your post might lead one to suggest that you're a ________ and need your _______ [no excuses].

Either you didn't bother to read the earlier posts that related Ford's apology to Dale, or your membership in Ford Nation included a strong cup of the Kool-Aid....

Dale's filing of notice of libel provided Ford with a window in which he could apologize and thereby avoid going to court. Looks like this half-assed apology will serve the purpose.

Ford is now blaming his slander on his neighbour, claiming he (Ford) didn't see Dale doing what was alleged.


----------



## i-rui

no, Ford's half-assed apology is not going to cut it :

Daniel Dale Says Rob Ford’s Statement “Didn’t Come Close” | politics | Torontoist


----------



## groovetube

It's hard to imagine anyone would buy Ford's BS story, but there ya go


----------



## Macfury

I just hope he continues to show respect for taxpayers in his remaining months in office.


----------



## groovetube

ha ha ha. 'Canadians are much weirder than we thought'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07wUSx1DO74


----------



## Dr.G.

Mayor Ford found his groove.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Dr.G. said:


> Mayor Ford found his groove.


can I get an Amen!




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## mrjimmy

CubaMark said:


> Either you didn't bother to read the earlier posts that related Ford's apology to Dale, or your membership in Ford Nation included a strong cup of the Kool-Aid....





macintosh doctor said:


> can I get an Amen!


Amen!


----------



## groovetube

Toronto Star reporter won't sue Rob Ford after 2nd apology issued | CTV Toronto News

So apparently Ford did a second apology, in which he has apologized properly. So, he lied!

Is that a big surprise?? A bit of a downer perhaps for supporters that believed him perhaps...

But according to his twitter feed, he is still proceeding on vision TV.


----------



## Macfury

It was never going to happen. Ford foes were just getting stiff over nothing here.


----------



## groovetube

yeah that's why Ford apologized... twice. :lmao:

And that is a man who only admits and apologizes, when he's backed into a corner.


----------



## groovetube

And here is the retraction by Ford, you know, on the case that was never going to happen... 

Rob Ford's apology to Daniel Dale | Toronto Star



> This recollection of the incident is inaccurate in that I never saw Mr. Dale standing on bricks or cinderblocks, never saw Mr. Dale looking over my fence and never saw Mr. Dale taking any pictures. There is no basis for saying as I did on December 17 and in the past that Mr. Dale was “lurking” or “leering” near or over my fence or behaving surreptitiously and I should not have said that. In the interview with Mr. Black I was recounting what I had initially been told by a neighbour. There was a police investigation at the time and no charges were laid against Mr. Dale, who I understand told police that he never stood on cinderblocks, never looked over my fence and never took photographs of my backyard. There was no basis for me to say that Mr. Dale was ever in my backyard or on my property and I should not have said that. Accordingly, I apologize to Mr. Dale for the inaccurate manner in which I described the incident of May 2012.


I guess his lawyer must have warned him this wasn't going to end well.


----------



## Macfury

If Dale had any guts he should have gone forward with the suit.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> If Dale had any guts he should have gone forward with the suit.


He took the high road and avoided a spurious lawsuit... something I would think that you'd be in favour of... interesting....


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> He took the high road and avoided a spurious lawsuit... something I would think that you'd be in favour of... interesting....


Do you think the lawsuit would have been spurious?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> If Dale had any guts he should have gone forward with the suit.


It's not a question of guts. This is how most libel cases go--you file a claim, your claim demands certain things (such as an apology, a retraction, etc) and if you get them, you usually don't go to court.

It's like suing someone for money they owe you, and then after you serve them with the legal notice they pay you.... not really much need to go to court after that.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> If Dale had any guts he should have gone forward with the suit.


If Ford had *any* integrity he wouldn't have lied.
numerous times. 
about pretty much everything.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> If Ford had *any* integrity he wouldn't have lied.
> numerous times.
> about pretty much everything.


exactly. Now how did things get spun around to Dale??



Good on Dale for standing up to Ford disgusting bullying, and winning.

I guess we'll hear about ow it goes with vision TV because reports are, Dale isn't backing down on them yet.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It's not a question of guts. This is how most libel cases go--you file a claim, your claim demands certain things (such as an apology, a retraction, etc) and if you get them, you usually don't go to court.
> 
> It's like suing someone for money they owe you, and then after you serve them with the legal notice they pay you.... not really much need to go to court after that.


It would be for the supposed damages done to Dale's stellar reputation. However, looks like Ford's lawyers were able to get Dale out of his hot-headed claim of proceeding with a libel suit (that would probably not have gone to trial anyway).


----------



## groovetube

I'm hearing some sour grapes


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I'm hearing some sour grapes


That makes no sense. I thought one of Ford's opponents would have the guts to take him on. I shouldn't have been surprised to see Dale skitter off in retreat.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> It would be for the supposed damages done to Dale's stellar reputation. However, looks like Ford's lawyers were able to get Dale out of his hot-headed claim of proceeding with a libel suit (that would probably not have gone to trial anyway).


Yes, and with the full apology and retraction, the damage is undone... well, as much as damage can be undone in libel cases.

Dale clearly stated if he received an unreserved apology and full retraction, he would drop the suit. Ford's first apology was insufficient and there was no retraction. His second apology and retraction was better. 

Case closed.


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> I guess we'll hear about ow it goes with vision TV because reports are, Dale isn't backing down on them yet.


I heard last night that they also apologized to Dale and promised never to air that segment of the interview again, and from what I understand Dale accepted their apology.


----------



## Macfury

Looks like Ford is the teflon man again. No damage sticks to him permanently.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> I heard last night that they also apologized to Dale and promised never to air that segment of the interview again, and from what I understand Dale accepted their apology.


hadn't heard that. But great if so. Glad to see Dale get results, standing up to the bully successfully getting a full retraction!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Looks like Ford is the teflon man again. No damage sticks to him permanently.


only because he has no integrity and his reputation is already in tatters.

hard to "damage" those things when they're already beyond repair.


----------



## mrjimmy

i-rui said:


> only because he has no integrity and his reputation is already in tatters.
> 
> hard to "damage" those things when they're already beyond repair.


Precisely. Those who continue to support Ford clearly expose their desperation and/ or ignorance.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> only because he has no integrity and his reputation is already in tatters.
> 
> hard to "damage" those things when they're already beyond repair.


Damage in this case would be successful legal action against him--something he has evaded against all the odds.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Precisely. Those who continue to support Ford clearly expose their desperation and/ or ignorance.


This isn't going to dent the very hard core ford nation, which seems to be shrinking slowly but surely. Nothing short of being led out in leg irons and put away for years would stop them, and even then they'll continue to see Ford as a victim of the left.

It's not rob fords fault he's a crack smoking hug a thug liar disgrace to Toronto! It's someone else's fault!


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Damage in this case would be successful legal action against him--something he has evaded against all the odds.


Dale clearly stated he would drop legal action if Ford retracted his claims and offered a full apology.

There was no "odds" he evaded. He capitulated to Dale's demands to avoid going to trial.


----------



## groovetube

In ford world, even when you lose, you win!


----------



## SINC

i-rui said:


> Dale clearly stated he would drop legal action if Ford retracted his claims and offered a full apology.
> 
> There was no "odds" he evaded. He capitulated to Dale's demands to avoid going to trial.


I think he refers to the bigger picture in that Ford has escaped law suits against him on numerous occasions, not just this single case, so yes, the odds comment fits.


----------



## i-rui

he specifically stated "this case".



Macfury said:


> Damage* in this cas*e would be successful legal action against him--something he has evaded against all the odds.


----------



## Macfury

i-rui said:


> he specifically stated "this case".


He did not initiate a court case. So Ford got to say what he wanted, faked an apology and avoided any legal consequences. A good day's work for Mr. Ford.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> He did not initiate a court case. So Ford got to say what he wanted, faked an apology and avoided any legal consequences. A good day's work for Mr. Ford.


...and all without an ounce of credibility or integrity!


----------



## groovetube

oh let ford nation believe what they need to.

Like I said, when they lose, they win!!! Every day is happy day in ford nation! 

If they think it's ok to spread filthy lies about an innocent person, that says everything you need to know about ford nation. They can't be reasoned with. Their 60 bucks in repealed vehicle registration tax is all the thanks they need!


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Damage in this case would be successful legal action against him--something he has evaded against all the odds.


Technically, it was successful legal action against him.... one doesn't need to actually go to court to succeed in a legal action.

The first legal step in a libel proceedings is to serve a legal notice of claim. That notice typically provides opportunity for resolving the matter without going to court. 

Daniel Dale set out his terms, served the notice and got exactly what he asked for. Matter resolved in favour of Dale.


----------



## mrjimmy

Ford stands by every comment he makes...

Until he doesn't.


----------



## groovetube

"Did I lie? Maybe in one of my bulls**t stupors"


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Daniel Dale set out his terms, served the notice and got exactly what he asked for. Matter resolved in favour of Dale.


Rob Ford got what he wanted as well. Win! Win!


----------



## groovetube

Wow, even after sonal gave a little legal 101 too!


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Wow, even after sonal gave a little legal 101 too!


Guess you didn't understand it.


----------



## groovetube

Uh, yeah.

In other news, Ford says all you have to do is give yer lady a couple thousand bucks and she's happy!
Rob Ford giving wife cash for Christmas because 'women love money' | CTV Toronto News

Oh shutting right here.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Rob Ford got what he wanted as well. Win! Win!


Given that Ford a) kept talking it after the Black interview (which was the reason why Daniel Dale chose to sue for libel instead of letting it go), b) gave his initial half-assed apology a day after the deadline in Dale's notice, and c) only gave his full and complete apology and retraction after Dale said he was going to go through with the lawsuit.... well, to me, these do not look like the actions of a man who wanted to say bad things and then make a weak apology. They look more like the actions of a man who wanted to keep talking about it, but got smacked into taking it back.

That said, I wouldn't think that Ford is actually remorseful, mostly because based on the nature of most of his apologies and behaviour, I'm not sure he really knows what apologizing means. But hopefully he understands from this that he shouldn't do this again.


----------



## groovetube

He was threatened with getting sued, and publically whipped for being a sleazebag liar really. His first apology was rejected, so he was forced to publically admit, that he lied. (Again).

Clearly, Dale was less interested in the court case as he was in setting the record straight.

Dale got what he wanted.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> That said, I wouldn't think that Ford is actually remorseful, mostly because based on the nature of most of his apologies and behaviour, I'm not sure he really knows what apologizing means. But hopefully he understands from this that he shouldn't do this again.


It was an apology written by a lawyer. It also included insinuations that the mayor's neighbour might have seen the incident. 



> In the interview with Mr. Black I was recounting what I had initially been told by a neighbour.


While the apology noted that Dale did not take the photos Ford had insinuated, it mentioned that the photos were not taken only because the batteries in Dale's camera phone had died. 



> I understand from Mr. Dale that while he had attempted to take a photograph of land adjacent to my actual property, the battery power on his phone died at the time of taking a photograph and therefore no photograph of adjacent land was ever saved onto the phone.



If that keeps Dale happy, so be it.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> It was an apology written by a lawyer. It also included insinuations that the mayor's neighbour might have seen the incident. While the apology noted that Dale did not take the photos Ford had insinuated, it mentioned that the photos were not taken only because the batteries in Dale's camera phone had died.
> 
> If that keeps Dale happy, so be it.


No that's not what the letter said. Read it again.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> It was an apology written by a lawyer. It also included insinuations that the mayor's neighbour might have seen the incident. While the apology noted that Dale did not take the photos Ford had insinuated, it mentioned that the photos were not taken only because the batteries in Dale's camera phone had died.
> 
> If that keeps Dale happy, so be it.


Of course it was written by a lawyer. This was a legal matter. In fact it was his lawyer who advised him to apologize the first time, but Ford chose not to take his lawyer's wording then, and used his own. 

If all he wanted to do was fake apologize, he could have done that without the legal advice. 

In any case, the accepted apology also includes an admission that Rob Ford's retelling of the event was inaccurate, that he had no basis for accusing Dale of lurking or leering, that there was no basis for saying that Dale had been on his property, and that there was absolutely no basis for implying that Dale might have been attempting to photograph children. It also includes a full retraction of those statements.

Which is pretty much Dale asked for.


----------



## groovetube

The only reference to the camera battery was that the photograph (singular) taken of the adjacent property wasn't saved to the phone.

No insinuations of all the other stuff that Dale was concerned about. None. As Sonal said, dale got what he demanded.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> ...an admission that Rob Ford's retelling of the event was inaccurate, that he had no basis for accusing Dale of lurking or leering, that there was no basis for saying that Dale had been on his property, and that there was absolutely no basis for implying that Dale might have been attempting to photograph children.


He did not say that there was no basis for it--only that he had not personally seen it. (That neighbour, on the other hand...")


----------



## groovetube

> Finally *there was absolutely no basis *for the statement I made about Mr. Dale taking pictures of children, or for any insinuations I made. I should not have said what I did and *I wholly retract my statements and apologize to Mr. Dale without reservation for what I said*.
> I sincerely hope that Mr. Dale will accept my personal apology for my comments and all harm my words may have caused him.


Pretty clear. It seems you're seeing something, that just isn't there.

Ford nation is quite comical actually.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> He did not say that there was no basis for it--only that he had not personally seen it. (That neighbour, on the other hand...")


I think you are thinking of his first apology, not his second.


----------



## groovetube

Clearly he hasn't read the formal retraction and apology.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I think you are thinking of his first apology, not his second.


This one:


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> This one:


That's page 1. Take a look at page 2.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> That's page 1. Take a look at page 2.


Yes, I've read both pages--I posted that first page just so you would know we were talking about the same document.


----------



## groovetube

I think he insinuated that he's leaving office and starting a brothel.

On page 3.


----------



## i-rui

Sonal said:


> I think you are thinking of his first apology, not his second.


it's getting hard to keep track of *all* the apologies....


----------



## i-rui

groovetube said:


> I think he insinuated that he's leaving office and starting a brothel.
> 
> On page 3.


before or after he has another "jesus" moment?


----------



## groovetube

I heard the other day, he was super super super super sorry!


----------



## i-rui

i think it's wonderful that we now have to refer to what "page" something is on in this man's apologies.

how much of a screw up can one man become? it's next level.....


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Yes, I've read both pages--I posted that first page just so you would know we were talking about the same document.


Okay, well the neighbour part was in his first apology. And in the second apology, he does state he has no basis for a number of the statements he made.


----------



## groovetube

i-rui said:


> before or after he has another "jesus" moment?


No, after he loses 50 or so pounds!


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Okay, well the neighbour part was in his first apology. And in the second apology, he does state he has no basis for a number of the statements he made.


When Ford says he was recounting what was "initially told to him by a neighbour," he does not discount the neighbour's story--only says he did not view directly what he initially alleged. 

I suppose we disagree on whether that apology covers the neighbour's account, Sonal. I see it as very specifically discounting the mayor personally viewing the event, but not the neighbour's account.


----------



## groovetube

what the neighbour said or didn't say, had no bearing on anything.

The neighbour can make his own statements or accusations if he wishes. My guess, he'd probably decline.

Here's my guess: Neighbor calls Ford and says, there's a strange man taking pictures behind your property! (since Dale did try to take a photo of the land adjacent to ford's) Ford flips out and goes out there swinging and screaming, after finding out it's a guy from the Star, figures he'd get some real mileage over it, and starts making crap up about taking pictures of his kids and sicko blah blah, but in true brainless Ford style, takes it way to far and begins accusing Dale of being a sicko taking pictures of kids.

I guess he's learned there's consequences for this sort of thing, but I suppose he and his followers don't like that there's consequences for trying to destroy a man's reputation with lies.

Because you know, if you don't like someone it should allowed or something like that.


----------



## Lawrence

In with the brain washing...Out with the dirty bath water.


----------



## Lawrence

I really wanted a fridge magnet...Or a bobble head, Damn it Ford!!!
Emergency? What emergency, Here have a fridge magnet.


----------



## Lawrence

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford asked us to forgive and forget

Regrettably, forgiveness doesn’t come that easily.


----------



## kps

Lawrence said:


> Regrettably, forgiveness doesn’t come that easily.


However, forgetfulness does.


----------



## groovetube

pretty hard to forget his monumental screwups. 

Man for a guy that's from the whole law and order, there's consequences for that, blah blah crowd, it's kind of astounding to see the hypocrisy.

Really all that's needed in the next election, is a good alternative people will vote for. In the last one, Smitherman was his only real competition, and that's really how he won last time. He may not be so lucky this time round.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> pretty hard to forget his monumental screwups.
> 
> Man for a guy that's from the whole law and order, there's consequences for that, blah blah crowd, it's kind of astounding to see the hypocrisy.
> 
> Really all that's needed in the next election, is a good alternative people will vote for. In the last one, Smitherman was his only real competition, and that's really how he won last time. He may not be so lucky this time round.


Most people and I emphasize, most people, are obsessed with their personal lives and not this doofus, so yeah, they'll forget most of the bad stuff. It does not mean they'll vote for him. Can't wait for the candidate list.


----------



## groovetube

Sure, as it is in any election.

If Ford's only sin was getting drunk and being a doofus, he'd have no problem.


----------



## groovetube

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford is budget hypocrite-in-chief: Editorial | Toronto Star



> Finally, the average household would be stung for $13 in new tax to cover the cost of Ford’s Scarborough subway folly. A light-rail line could have been had for free. By the time Ford’s subway is done it will cost the average household at least $1,200. That’s the real gravy train. Thanks, Mayor Ford — hypocrite-in-chief.
> From now until the next election he will screech and preach about this budget. But, as with so much to do with Ford, there’s no substance to his bluster.


Now the ford morons want to cancel the new streetcars, likely costing us huge numbers. All because, they don't understand that the old streetcars have older systems that resulted in their being stopped for a day in the ice storm. Never mind that large sections of the subways were also down.

But also so they can drive their SUVs downtown thinking buses will make it easier.

These guys are going to end up costing Torontonians, huge dollars if they're allowed to keep up this stupidity.


----------



## Macfury

I wish they would cancel all of the transit plans, unless they're covered by fares.


----------



## groovetube

That's a big wish!

I wish for unicorns and pots of gold, but that probably won't happen either.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> That's a big wish!
> 
> I wish for unicorns and pots of gold, but that probably won't happen either.



No pot of gold for you….as far as the unicorn is concerned you don't want to know where I'am envisioning that horn going.


----------



## groovetube

Jesus did I **** in yer wheaties or something?


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Jesus did I **** in yer wheaties or something?


It was meant as a joke, I figured you'd get it. 

I see the wink, but I'll delete it if it offended you.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> It was meant as a joke, I figured you'd get it.


Absolutely! You meant the horn would go up groovetube's a-ss!


----------



## groovetube

Gold stars to macfury for figuring out the riddle!

Don't worry kps I too had a smilie.


----------



## Macfury

Smiley.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> Gold stars to macfury for figuring out the riddle!
> 
> Don't worry kps I too had a smilie.


I owe you one...


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> I owe you one...


What? Another unicorn horn up his a-ss?


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> What? Another unicorn horn up his a-ss?


I'm giving groove one Tit for Tat. I'm going to guess it'll be in a Harper or Ford thread...:lmao:


----------



## groovetube

well you moved out of ford nation, and I don't blame you.


----------



## kps

groovetube said:


> well you moved out of ford nation, and I don't blame you.


They confiscated my passport and revoked my citizenship, so I can never get back in.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> They confiscated my passport and revoked my citizenship, so I can never get back in.


Judging from some of the nutso ideas being floated around the city these days regarding non-citizens, that makes you an ideal voter in Toronto elections.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Judging from some of the nutso ideas being floated around the city these days regarding non-citizens, that makes you an ideal voter in Toronto elections.


I can't vote anyway, I moved out of elitesville. They also took me off the tax rolls.


----------



## kps

OK Macfury, what nutso ideas are being proposed down there? Haven't been following things in Tranna.


----------



## Macfury

They keep wanting to extend voting rights to non-citizens.


----------



## i-rui

i remember Ford thought he could banish criminals from the city.

that was pretty nutso.

and ironic.


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> They keep wanting to extend voting rights to non-citizens.


I thought that already existed in municipal elections. I might have heard some nutso taking it to a federal level a while back.


----------



## Macfury

kps said:


> I thought that already existed in municipal elections. I might have heard some nutso taking it to a federal level a while back.


Maybe they wanted to extend voting rights to people living in other countries, so Toronto can be a true world class city.


----------



## skippythebushkangaroo

How To Draw Rob Ford


----------



## kps

Macfury said:


> Maybe they wanted to extend voting rights to people living in other countries, so Toronto can be a true world class city.


Sounds about right…


----------



## groovetube

Duelling mayors Norm Kelly, Rob Ford dispute size of Toronto tax hike | Toronto Star



> In an interview, Kelly called on Ford to table his list of money-saving ideas right away.
> “Let’s transform rhetoric into reality,” Kelly said. “If you have suggestions, why not make them now? Why wait until the very end of the process?”


Asking the impossible. Rhetoric is all Ford has.


----------



## mrjimmy

Love how he's jumping on JT's bandwagon. 

Next he'll be claiming crack is medicinal and advocating for more drinking and driving,

Rob Ford speaks favourably of marijuana decriminalization | Toronto Star

What a vote whore.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Love how he's jumping on JT's bandwagon.
> 
> Next he'll be claiming crack is medicinal and advocating for more drinking and driving,
> 
> Rob Ford speaks favourably of marijuana decriminalization | Toronto Star
> 
> What a vote whore.


hmm. On the surface, I'd say it's kind of a smart move. However, in true Ford fashion, he took quite the shot at the federal conservatives in the process.

His approval rating rose after the ice storm, although he mostly knocked on doors and handed fridge magnets out to people. 

I think this whole scandal thing is going to have a lot more surprises coming up from reading between the lines. We another 10 months to go, should be interesting.


----------



## Lawrence

The truth about Ford

LOL...The link is censored by ehMac...Hah ha ha ha... Fill the stars in with the "F" word


----------



## rondini

Not a vote whore! Just a whore!


----------



## groovetube

The people's princess!


----------



## Macfury

Why is it supposed to be funny to call Ford a princess?


----------



## i-rui

because Ezra Levant compared Ford to Lady Di.


----------



## Macfury

Thanks for the reference. For a guy with a show that nets 8,000 viewers nationally, his quotes seem to get around.


----------



## Lawrence

500,000 Voters for a Rob Ford Free Toronto


----------



## Macfury

Why is Ford texting that old bag?


----------



## groovetube

It seems REALLY important to the fords, you should ask them.


----------



## Macfury

I guess I need to look at today's paper. Is Ford harassing some poor senior?


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> I guess I need to look at today's paper. Is Ford harassing some poor senior?


lol

gotta give credit on that line.

but seriously Ford is a tool. Wynne is going to talk to Norm Kelly. If Ford is lucky maybe they'll let him sit at the table with grown ups.

in other news 

Project Traveller trials could force viewing of Rob Ford video | Toronto & GTA | News | Toronto Sun

i wonder, if the video comes out for public viewing (which i'm not saying the article necessarily says it will) before the election does that affect Ford Nation at all? Does that weaken or strengthen his support. I honestly have no idea with the hardcore supporters. I think he'd lose a bit, but that hard candy core of the nation are in love.


----------



## i-rui

Macfury said:


> Thanks for the reference. For a guy with a show that nets 8,000 viewers nationally, his quotes seem to get around.


Ezra is like the Michael Jordan of saying stupid stuff. When he's says a gem like that it gets around.


----------



## groovetube

It was because it had to do with Rob Ford, which through his astounding antics as mayor (if you considering smoking crack astounding...) has achieved global embarrassment and gawking level.

You rarely hear much else Ezra has to say. But I think he has figured out that saying really stupid things gets people's attention, so, once in a while a real doozy will see the light of day.


----------



## aylwin

Folks in this thread might enjoy a website I've been running for a little over a year:

Is Rob Ford Still Mayor?


----------



## aylwin

Oops, forgot to mention - there's also a subsite:

How Is Rob Ford Still Mayor?


----------



## Macfury

Very clean layout!


----------



## Max

The second site kinda says it all.


----------



## groovetube

Yes it does!


----------



## aylwin

Thanks


----------



## CubaMark

*...here he goes again...*

*New Rob Ford video shows mayor speaking in Jamaican patois*

_Toronto Mayor Rob Ford is seen imitating a Jamaican accent and speaking in patois in a new video posted to YouTube today. 

In what appears to be the Steak Queen restaurant at 345 Rexdale Blvd. in Etobicoke, Ford is seen standing at the service counter speaking to a group. He is wearing a red tie, similar to the tie he wore on Monday.

Throughout much of the 1:06-minute video, Ford attempts to use Jamaican slang, using the word "bumbaclot" — profanity in patois — at least four times.

He is speaking to what appears to be staff at the restaurant about "counter-surveillance." The owner of the YouTube account claims the mayor is intoxicated.

The video also includes English profanity._





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

What's he doing wrong?


----------



## groovetube

Here comes some more drunken stupors!


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> Here comes some more drunken stupors!


Can't be. He doesn't drink anymore.

Unless he's lying, and we all know he does that.


----------



## whatiwant

mrjimmy said:


> Can't be. He doesn't drink anymore.
> 
> Unless he's lying, and we all know he does that.


maybe he was into the greenery he supports the legalization of.


----------



## mrjimmy

jawknee said:


> maybe he was into the greenery he supports the legalization of.






+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Paddy

Nope. Says he was drinking…

https://soundcloud.com/torontostar/rob-ford-on-new-video (at around the 6 second mark he clearly answers that he was drinking)

Meanwhile back in Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire Land, Doug is claiming that the video could not have been taken last night/early this morning because he talked to the mayor last night and he's heavier in the video than he is now.

"I'll repeat what he said 10 million times. (Since) the beginning of November, he hasn't taken a drink. So, very simple,” Doug Ford told reporters outside the mayor's office."

Nothing like getting your story straight before yakking to the press, is there Dougie?

Rob Ford: New video shows mayor rambling, slurring his words | Toronto Star

And the mind-boggling comedy just goes on and on...


----------



## groovetube

oh my. Gonna a be a bit awkward back at the Ford ranch right about now. :lmao:


----------



## CubaMark

Rob Ford admits to drinking 'a little bit' after new video surfaces - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## groovetube

after seeing the video, man, if that's a 'little bit', just wait til he has a real drunken stupor!


----------



## Macfury

jawknee said:


> maybe he was into the greenery he supports the legalization of.


I've heard that it can give people bad Jamaican accents, if it's from that part of the world.


----------



## whatiwant

Macfury said:


> I've heard that it can give people bad Jamaican accents, if it's from that part of the world.



Hahahahaha


----------



## i-rui

also, there's another video of Ford at the same restaurant with Sandro Lisi. not sure if it's been confirmed to be from the same night... but if it is, then just wow. the absolute lack of judgment from this clown is superhuman.


----------



## groovetube

I just saw that as well. We must follow similar sources. Lisi had a Canada goose jacket so obviously it was really cold..


----------



## Paddy

i-rui said:


> also, there's another video of Ford at the same restaurant with Rob Lisi. not sure if it's been confirmed to be from the same night... but if it is, then just wow. the absolute lack of judgment from this clown is superhuman.


The Star has posted it and if you pause the video as the person taking it passes Ford on the way out of the bathroom, you can see that Ford is wearing the same suit and tie he had on in the first video.

Yeah…lack of gray matter between the ears is pretty evident…

(I'm glad the unknown videographer chose to just wash his hands on the trip to the bathroom! It appeared to simply be a ploy to take him past Ford's table twice…)


----------



## macintosh doctor

i-rui said:


> also, there's another video of Ford at the same restaurant with Sandro Lisi. not sure if it's been confirmed to be from the same night... but if it is, then just wow. the absolute lack of judgment from this clown is superhuman.


best accent by a white guy.. leave it up to the germans LOL
[ame=http://youtu.be/v_UdhoLFJ0U]Official Super Bowl Commercial 2013 (Volkswagen Game Day) - YouTube[/ame]




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.





respect da bossman LOL


----------



## groovetube

John Tory preparing to enter mayoral race: Hepburn | Toronto Star

bye bye Ford....


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> John Tory preparing to enter mayoral race: Hepburn | Toronto Star
> 
> bye bye Ford....


Or, vote is split between Tory and Chow...


----------



## groovetube

I doubt Chow is going to run. She recently said that this year would be a 'relaxing one'.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I doubt Chow is going to run. She recently said that this year would be a 'relaxing one'.


The gods are smiling on Toronto then.


----------



## groovetube

You mean the gods are smiling on macfury.

I'm more than happy to have Tory as mayor. I bet after Ford a lot of people would.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I doubt Chow is going to run. She recently said that this year would be a 'relaxing one'.


Olivia Chow ‘seriously considering' Toronto mayoral run - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Sonal

I'm not counting on Tory until he says it himself.


----------



## groovetube

mrjimmy said:


> Olivia Chow ‘seriously considering' Toronto mayoral run - The Globe and Mail


Bu-but that's so last week 

Not sure about splitting the vote. Both Tory and Chow are really strong candidates and will siphon all of the swing votes and leave ford with his lunatic fringe.

If chow ran she'd likely clean up.


----------



## Macfury

I think Chow should continue to wreak destruction at the federal level where she can do less harm.


----------



## groovetube

So much damage as an opposition member. :lmao:


----------



## macintosh doctor

groovetube said:


> So much damage as an opposition member. :lmao:


she still has access to tax payers funds for $18 orange juices and first class travel


----------



## groovetube

and that apparently has you all hot and bothered.

I'd probably look at the government where they're likely wasting an awful lot of 16 dollar orange juices and expensive travel.

Just ask their buddies they handed senate appOINKtments to.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> appOINKtments


Prediction: this will not become the hot new word of the year.


----------



## groovetube

did you think -I- made that up?? :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> did you think -I- made that up?? :lmao:


You can take full credit:


----------



## groovetube

Oh I'd love to but I picked it up off someone else.


----------



## Macfury

No need to spread the blame around.


----------



## groovetube

My you seem very very concerned about this!


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## macintosh doctor

Alex, I take scandal for $800 and make it a true daily double 
Rob Ford gets laughs on Jeopardy! - YouTube


----------



## mrjimmy

CubaMark said:


>


Difference is, Laurel and Hardy were likeable.


----------



## Macfury

Too easy.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Too easy.


.


----------



## Macfury

That was funnier the 48th time you used it.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> That was funnier the 48th time you used it.


But it suits you so well!


----------



## Macfury

You should have sat on your response for awhile, had a coffee, then crafted a real stinger.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> You should have sat on your response for awhile, had a coffee, then crafted a real stinger.


Why? The truth is so much more straightforward.


----------



## groovetube

One can always be garenteed an eeyore of a response to any comic cartoon etc that in any way has even a sniff of 'leftist humor'.


----------



## Macfury

In your case, I would just start straight in with the truth. Humour is not your strong suit.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> In your case, I would just start straight in with the truth. Humour is not your strong suit.


Is this your 'stinger'?

:lmao:

You're so cute. Please refer back to the photo.


----------



## groovetube

well so far, I think most members here have been notified that 'humour isn't their strong suit'.

So I think it's starting to cancel itself out :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> well so far, I think most members here have been notified that 'humour isn't their strong suit'.
> 
> So I think it's starting to cancel itself out :lmao:


I've certainly told you as well. But I don't think that means you cancel out mrjimmy.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I've certainly told you as well. But I don't think that means you cancel out mrjimmy.


Welcome to Instant Rimshot


----------



## groovetube

I think he's told a pile of others as well...


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> I think he's told a pile of others as well...


Adrian.


----------



## groovetube

And cubamark...


----------



## groovetube

And macdoc...

Lol


----------



## groovetube

And bryanc..


----------



## Macfury

No. In their cases, I told them that whoever created the material to which they were linking had an underdeveloped sense of humour, or no flair for satire. cubamark and bryanc are actually sometimes funny.


----------



## groovetube

Well. As long as you think that, I guess that's what matters!


----------



## SINC

Seems that bryanc has abandoned ehMac anyway, last seen here Dec 17, 2013.


----------



## Macfury

SINC said:


> Seems that bryanc has abandoned ehMac anyway, last seen here Dec 17, 2013.


His final prank--that jocular fellow!


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford leaves trade board dinner after speech lambasting leadership | Toronto Star

Ouch.


----------



## i-rui

Rumors are swirling that Rob Ford may be facing some new legal troubles today...


----------



## groovetube

oh it's now more than rumour, check the ford thread.


----------



## SINC

groovetube said:


> oh it's now more than rumour, check the ford thread.


Uh, this IS the Ford thread and I don't see it here.

But if you folks are referring the the personal lawsuit brought against Ford by his former relative, a drug abuser, etc, it should hardly be called a big deal. It is likely more revenge than anything else and until a statement of defence is filed, meaningless. One man's word against another and all.


----------



## Sonal

It's genuinely hard to say who is more credible, a drug dealing criminal who shot a woman in the face, or Rob Ford. 

In any case:

Brother-in-law beaten in jail to keep quiet about Rob Ford's drug use, lawsuit alleges - The Globe and Mail

Oh, and the complete statement of claim:
Lawsuit alleges Ford ordered jailhouse beating | NOW Magazine


----------



## groovetube

SINC said:


> Uh, this IS the Ford thread and I don't see it here.
> 
> But if you folks are referring the the personal lawsuit brought against Ford by his former relative, a drug abuser, etc, it should hardly be called a big deal. It is likely more revenge than anything else and until a statement of defence is filed, meaningless. One man's word against another and all.


Oops, you're right, I somehow thought I clicked on another thread.

As for this whole deal, if you follow the information (most of it being sent out via twitter it seems before it hits the newspapers...) once again, the number of coincidences show the again, like just about everything else rob ford has been accused of, he's lying about not being involved.

The part about the guy who did the beating was a football player on rob ford's team? That pretty much cinched for me after the rest of it all.


----------



## groovetube

Rob Ford's new campaign slogan "I had nothing to do with that murder!".


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> It's genuinely hard to say who is more credible, a drug dealing criminal who shot a woman in the face, or Rob Ford.
> 
> In any case:
> 
> Brother-in-law beaten in jail to keep quiet about Rob Ford's drug use, lawsuit alleges - The Globe and Mail
> 
> Oh, and the complete statement of claim:
> Lawsuit alleges Ford ordered jailhouse beating | NOW Magazine


I read the statement of claim and it will be a tough sell. He needs to not only prove Ford ordered the beating, but that Ford and the administration (and other staff members) of the correctional facility conspired together to pull it off.


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> I read the statement of claim and it will be a tough sell. He needs to not only prove Ford ordered the beating, but that Ford and the administration (and other staff members) of the correctional facility conspired together to pull it off.


You know macfury you've made similar predictions when Daniel Dale went after Ford for libel and when the crack thing went down etc etc., now, I'm not much of a betting man, but I'd say Rob Ford isn't best horse to place bets on at this time. :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> You know macfury you've made similar predictions when Daniel Dale went after Ford for libel and when the crack thing went down etc etc., now, I'm not much of a betting man, but I'd say Rob Ford isn't best horse to place bets on at this time. :lmao:



Yes, it never went to trial and Ford delivered a qualified apology, which Dale accepted.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> Yes, it never went to trial and Ford delivered a qualified apology, which Dale accepted.


No, Dale accepted the 2nd, unqualified apology that came with a full retraction.... which is pretty much the goal of a libel suit.


----------



## groovetube

Sonal said:


> No, Dale accepted the 2nd, unqualified apology that came with a full retraction.... which is pretty much the goal of a libel suit.


Yep. Dale got exactly what he demanded.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> No, Dale accepted the 2nd, unqualified apology that came with a full retraction.... which is pretty much the goal of a libel suit.


I never saw that statement as a full retraction. There was some clever language in there and I'm sure Dale saw it.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> No, Dale accepted the 2nd, unqualified apology that came with a full retraction.... which is pretty much the goal of a libel suit.


Again as I pointed out, Ford did not say that the incident did not occur. He merely shifted the report of the incident to a neighbour.



> In the interview with Mr. Black I was recounting what I had initially been told by a neighbour.


Likewise, he allowed that Dale may have intended to take those photos, but could not have because his battery died: 



> I understand from Mr. Dale that while he had attempted to take a photograph of land adjacent to my actual property, the battery power on his phone died at the time of taking a photograph and therefore no photograph of adjacent land was ever saved onto the phone.


That's as much as Dale could expect and he accepted it. Unqualified, not so much.


----------



## Sonal

Full text of the apology.

Full text: Read Rob Ford’s (second) apology to reporter Daniel Dale | Globalnews.ca

Selected quotes, emphasis mine:


> *This recollection of the incident is inaccurate* in that I never saw Mr. Dale standing on bricks or cinderblocks, never saw Mr. Dale looking over my fence and never saw Mr. Dale taking any pictures. *There is no basis for saying as I did *on December 17 and in the past that Mr. Dale was “lurking” or “leering” near or over my fence or behaving surreptitiously and I should not have said that.





> *There was no basis for me *to say that Mr. Dale was ever in my backyard or on my property and *I should not have said that.*





> Finally *there was absolutely no basis for the statement *I made about Mr. Dale taking pictures of children, or for any insinuations I made. I should not have said what I did and* I wholly retract my statements and apologize to Mr. Dale without reservation *for what I said.


Given that the crux of the issue for Daniel Dale was the statement Rob Ford made about him taking pictures of children, and given that this part in particular was wholly retracted and apologized for without reservation, I think the important parts was adequately addressed.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Given that the crux of the issue for Daniel Dale was the statement Rob Ford made about him taking pictures of children, and given that this part in particular was wholly retracted and apologized for without reservation, I think the important parts was adequately addressed.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. Ford said that his own recollection was inaccurate, but never said that the neighbour's statement was untrue.


----------



## groovetube

what's to disagree about? Dale demanded a full retraction or it goes to court, and Ford gave a full retraction. I'm sure Dale preferred not to go to court, so he got what he wanted.

Case closed as they say.

Sounds like a little sour grapes macfury.


----------



## groovetube

I'm hearing via the twitter sphere that that interview Ford was refusing to give police, is apparently going to be a mandatory one now. 

hmmm. I'm hearing some other rumblings as well.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rob Ford admits jaywalking ticket in Vancouver, denies public intoxication - The Globe and Mail

Public intoxication, drug abuse, etc., are all bad .................. but jaywalking????????? That does it. He really needs to get his act together or else leave office.


----------



## groovetube

Robyn Doolittle's book is due out next week,. that should be an eyeopener...


----------



## mrjimmy

Speaking of which...

Crazy Town: The Rob Ford story, exclusive excerpt of Robyn Doolittle's book | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

I will admit that "The David Miller Story" would have been a brief pamphlet.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> I will admit that "The David Miller Story" would have been a brief pamphlet.


Is that really all you've got?


----------



## Macfury

mrjimmy said:


> Is that really all you've got?


If you want more, I will be taking requests later in the day.


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> If you want more, I will be taking requests later in the day.


Ok, I'll give you credit for that little chuckle. 

And now, should we continue going off the rails of the crazy gravy train?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> I will admit that "The David Miller Story" would have been a brief pamphlet.


Hey, I have a friend who was one of the twenty-five people at David Miller's book launch.....

Witness to a City: David Miller's Toronto | Cormorant Books


----------



## i-rui

mrjimmy said:


> Speaking of which...
> 
> Crazy Town: The Rob Ford story, exclusive excerpt of Robyn Doolittle's book | Toronto Star


Robyn Doolittle is supposedly going to be on the Daily Show this week (thursday feb 6)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Hey, I have a friend who was one of the twenty-five people at David Miller's book launch.....
> 
> Witness to a City: David Miller's Toronto | Cormorant Books


256 pages. Certainly more than a pamphlet! I can't imagine what they used to fill those pages--daily menus?


----------



## Lawrence

Three hour tour


----------



## CubaMark

Ford's latest escapades in Vancouver are providing lots of comedic fodder...


----------



## Dr.G.

CubaMark said:


> Ford's latest escapades in Vancouver are providing lots of comedic fodder...


Toronto Mayor Rob Ford reportedly said ticketing jaywalkers is a waste of taxpayer dollars, but he found out first-hand that's not the sentiment in a Metro Vancouver city: 

Ford, who is visiting the Vancouver area this weekend to attend a funeral, was handed a $109 fine for jaywalking near a Shell gas station, up the street from his hotel in Coquitlam Friday night.

http://cbc.sh/QUGXAsD

I agree. First he has to endure growing up "poor" (when compared to some), and then he has to dig into his saving to pay this fine. When will this injustice end???

The roots of Rob Ford: New book explores mayor's upbringing - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Sonal

The Rob Ford Sports Jersey curse. It's a real thing.

Yahoo News Canada - Latest News & Headlines


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting. He could be the secret weapon that the Leafs need if they manage to get to the playoffs in the race for the Stanley Cup.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting. He could be the secret weapon that the Leafs need if they manage to get to the playoffs in the race for the Stanley Cup.


The losing teams are projecting their loss backwards in time. Ford is sensitive to these temporal waves and this is reflected in his choice of sweater. You could not force a victory by forcing him to wear another sweater.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting. He could be the secret weapon that the Leafs need if they manage to get to the playoffs in the race for the Stanley Cup.


Yes but the fallout from him wearing the opposing teams jersey would be immense.

Not sure that 'ford nation' would figure out the scheme


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> The losing teams are projecting their loss backwards in time. Ford is sensitive to these temporal waves and this is reflected in his choice of sweater. You could not force a victory by forcing him to wear another sweater.


Well, it could not hurt the Leafs if he showed up at every home game wearing the jersey of the opposing team.


----------



## i-rui

Sonal said:


> The Rob Ford Sports Jersey curse. It's a real thing.
> 
> Yahoo News Canada - Latest News & Headlines


he also tried to blame his Jaywalking ticket on the fact that he wore a Broncos Jersey, saying that Vancouver cops were cheering for Seattle.


YAY SEAHAWKS!


----------



## Sonal

Trip down memory lane, anyone? (Ford-themed "We Didn't Start The Fire.")

Ford-themed take on We Didn't Start The Fire is effing amazing | NOW Magazine


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Trip down memory lane, anyone? (Ford-themed "We Didn't Start The Fire.")
> 
> Ford-themed take on We Didn't Start The Fire is effing amazing | NOW Magazine


There are too many repeats in that song to equal Bill Joel's scope of American history.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> There are too many repeats in that song to equal Bill Joel's scope of American history.


Ford's only been Mayor for 3 years. 

If he gets another term, I'm sure we can fill out the song with repeats. (Or, I suppose, if the song writer starts quoting from Crazytown.)


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Ford's only been Mayor for 3 years.
> 
> If he gets another term, I'm sure we can fill out the song with repeats. (Or, I suppose, if the song writer starts quoting from Crazytown.)


If Olivia Chow runs for mayor, then many of us will be forced to vote for Rob Ford--the song will be the richer for it.


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> If Olivia Chow runs for mayor, then many of us will be forced to vote for Rob Ford--the song will be the richer for it.


Cheer up. It's starting to sound like Denzil Minnan-Wong is gearing up for a Mayoral run. He doesn't like having stuff to pay for either.


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Cheer up. It's starting to sound like Denzil Minnan-Wong is gearing up for a Mayoral run. He doesn't like having stuff to pay for either.


What flavour of gravy does he dislike?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> What flavour of gravy does he dislike?


I think he's trying to position himself as "Rob Ford's agenda minus the drama." (Though he throws in a few bones to make himself appear more centrist.)

Toronto's next mayor needs these essential traits | Toronto Star


----------



## groovetube

Macfury said:


> If Olivia Chow runs for mayor, then many of us will be forced to vote for Rob Ford--the song will be the richer for it.


well you hope to...
Rob Ford investigation ‘active and continuing’ by Toronto police | National Post


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> I think he's trying to position himself as "Rob Ford's agenda minus the drama." (Though he throws in a few bones to make himself appear more centrist.)
> 
> Toronto's next mayor needs these essential traits | Toronto Star


I read it through, but found it a real mish-mash of conflicting ideas. 

I disagreed most strongly with this: "Municipal government is about operations, not policy." Policy sets operations, so this is just a nonsense statement.

The notion of the city made up of "clients" demanding "services" is also repugnant to me.


----------



## JAMG

Most of Council does not care who is the mayor... The election only decides who should rubber stamp their shopping lists.

They have already shown that the current rules are in their favour.


----------



## groovetube

yeah those unelected councillors. Damn them.


----------



## jef

*Robin Doolittle on the Daily Show*

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - Exclusive - Robyn Doolittle Extended Interview

Smart lady...


----------



## groovetube

it appears Ford's plan of losing 50lbs to deal with his addiction isn't working very well. Apparently he was in a vancouver bar, spent an hour in the bathroom and came out incoherent again.

This guy is going to end up dead.


----------



## CubaMark

groovetube said:


> This guy is going to end up dead.


You may well be right. It's becoming quite obvious that he's completely out of control and far from being back on the wagon. This guy needs rehab... locked-down rehab. 

Here's the Star article on his latest escapades:

*Rob Ford "talking gibberish" during late night B.C. pub visit*

_Mayor reportedly disappeared into tiny staff washroom for more than an hour, emerging incoherent and fidgety before ordering rounds of drinks.Ford 'talking gibberish' during late-night B.C. pub visit_

* * * 

It took some time before Ford was able to speak to restaurant staff coherently. When he could be understood, and after he was assured all patrons had left the Foggy Dew pub in Coquitlam, B.C., Ford ordered and enjoyed rounds of beers, rum-and-cokes and shots of Jack Daniels with three people, according to an account of the evening.

* * * 

Though there are larger washrooms for patrons in the pub area, Ford entered a small (less than two metres square) single-toilet bathroom used by male staff. He did not emerge for more than an hour. Staff were unable to use that washroom. The curly haired man visited him at one point. So did bouncer Jamieson.

When Ford emerged shortly after 2 a.m., according to the account provided the Star, he was incoherent. He was scratching his chest and the back of his neck and making “weird twitch-like movements non-stop with his hands,” according to an eyewitness. “You could not understand a word he was saying,” said the eyewitness.

The first words witnesses could understand from Ford were: “No pictures.”

(TorontoStar)


----------



## mrjimmy

Ah the gift that keeps on giving...

Ford's rage over rainbow flag brings city further humiliation - The Globe and Mail



> In some ways, this episode was worse than the other humiliations Mr. Ford has brought on his city. Those were about his dubious behaviour. This is about his dubious attitudes.


I wonder how his 'gay friends' feel about this latest misstep.


----------



## groovetube

CubaMark said:


> You may well be right. It's becoming quite obvious that he's completely out of control and far from being back on the wagon. This guy needs rehab... locked-down rehab.
> 
> Here's the Star article on his latest escapades:
> 
> *Rob Ford "talking gibberish" during late night B.C. pub visit*
> 
> _Mayor reportedly disappeared into tiny staff washroom for more than an hour, emerging incoherent and fidgety before ordering rounds of drinks.Ford 'talking gibberish' during late-night B.C. pub visit_
> 
> * * *
> 
> It took some time before Ford was able to speak to restaurant staff coherently. When he could be understood, and after he was assured all patrons had left the Foggy Dew pub in Coquitlam, B.C., Ford ordered and enjoyed rounds of beers, rum-and-cokes and shots of Jack Daniels with three people, according to an account of the evening.
> 
> * * *
> 
> Though there are larger washrooms for patrons in the pub area, Ford entered a small (less than two metres square) single-toilet bathroom used by male staff. He did not emerge for more than an hour. Staff were unable to use that washroom. The curly haired man visited him at one point. So did bouncer Jamieson.
> 
> When Ford emerged shortly after 2 a.m., according to the account provided the Star, he was incoherent. He was scratching his chest and the back of his neck and making “weird twitch-like movements non-stop with his hands,” according to an eyewitness. “You could not understand a word he was saying,” said the eyewitness.
> 
> The first words witnesses could understand from Ford were: “No pictures.”
> 
> (TorontoStar)


The whole twitching thing, yeah that's crack. Has to be. I don't think I've ever seen anyone come from the bathroom after they were doing lines twitching.

This guy, love him or hate, has to get some help before something bad happens.


----------



## Dr.G.

groovetube said:


> This guy, love him or hate, has to get some help before something bad happens.


I strongly agree, gt. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## eMacMan

I think that what the staff believed was gibberish was in reality Hizzoner speaking in tongues. I am sure the religious self righteous wing nuts will view this as a sign from God that they are now to become Ford men.


----------



## groovetube

Dr.G. said:


> I strongly agree, gt. Paix, mon ami.


I've lost too many people in life to this, I don't wish it on anyone.


----------



## i-rui

mrjimmy said:


> Ah the gift that keeps on giving...
> 
> Ford's rage over rainbow flag brings city further humiliation - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how his 'gay friends' feel about this latest misstep.


how adorable....our very own Putin!


----------



## groovetube

hoooo boy.


----------



## Macfury

Hang on there Rob--only a few more months to go!


----------



## mrjimmy

Macfury said:


> Hang on there Rob--only a few more months to go!


:lmao:

Oh don't you worry, he'll be all right. 

Being a private citizen again will completely suit his lifestyle. He can do all the blow and crack his little heart desires. Drive drunk, go on tirades, lie and take no responsibility for his actions and get hammered every night without any worry about calling in sick the next day to Deco. 

Dougie and his Mom will give him a pass.


----------



## groovetube

At this rate given his weight and drug of choices, I'm not sure how many months it'll be before his heart will give out.

If he has a **** at staying alive, and being mayor, he needs to check himself in. I doubt that that will hurt any chance he has at being re-elected. 

Saying hang in there is pretty selfish. Putting it mildly.


----------



## Macfury

groovetube said:


> Saying hang in there is pretty selfish. Putting it mildly.


Being mayor is a selfless pursuit.


----------



## groovetube

:lmao:


----------



## Lawrence

Star of Stage, Screen & Burlesque, the fabulous & ever lovely Robella Ford!


----------



## groovetube

ooooh dear... 

Well they're saying his approval rating is going down. I can't say it's a surprise, he milked the ice storm for some love while he probably tried his best to stay sober etc., but as I knew only too well, a man with his disease would never be able to white knuckle it for very long without real help and recovery.

And he won't be able to hold it together much between now and the election either, I just hope the man doesn't die before getting help.


----------



## Macfury

You know something folks, it's about time in the 21st Century that people stop thinking it's some sort of hilarious joke to "insult" a guy by photoshopping him as a woman.


----------



## groovetube

it was an insult??


----------



## Macfury

Being coy makes you part of the problem.


----------



## groovetube

I have no problem saying I think curvaceous women are beautiful. This world places to much praise on thin people.

Looks like there's gonna be a movie!!! Film rights acquired for book about Rob Ford | CP24.com

Wonder who will play Rob Ford? I think Kevin James would be perfect.


----------



## mrjimmy

groovetube said:


> I have no problem saying I think curvaceous women are beautiful. This world places to much praise on thin people.
> 
> Looks like there's gonna be a movie!!! Film rights acquired for book about Rob Ford | CP24.com
> 
> Wonder who will play Rob Ford? I think Kevin James would be perfect.


Or perhaps it will be a newcomer! They will have to start scouting Mandarins all over town.


----------



## Lawrence

Role Model


----------



## Lawrence

I wish I were an Oscar Mayor wiener... In other news, The Mayor of T.O. is going to the Oscars.




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## SINC

Rob Ford arrives in Los Angeles for Jimmy Kimmel appearance | Toronto Star


----------



## Paddy

And who's paying for this little jaunt, complete with 2 brothers, his chief of staff, his driver and his press secretary along for the ride? It better not be me or any of my fellow Toronto taxpayers. <_<


----------



## Dr.G.

Paddy said:


> And who's paying for this little jaunt, complete with 2 brothers, his chief of staff, his driver and his press secretary along for the ride? It better not be me or any of my fellow Toronto taxpayers. <_<


True. We should all shoulder this expense and not just the folks in TO. He is representing this country and should be paid to travel first class to let those in America know that we hold our politicians to higher standards than they do, and thus, pay to have them represent us on the international stage.

Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Paddy said:


> And who's paying for this little jaunt, complete with 2 brothers, his chief of staff, his driver and his press secretary along for the ride? It better not be me or any of my fellow Toronto taxpayers. <_<



Rob Ford to appear on Jimmy Kimmel show tonight - Toronto - CBC News



> The mayor’s brother said that they were paying for part of their trip, while Kimmel’s show was covering another part. "Taxpayers are not paying for a penny of it," Coun. Ford said.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Rob Ford to appear on Jimmy Kimmel show tonight - Toronto - CBC News


Of course taxpayers are "not paying a penny" of these costs since the costs will be far more than a penny. Still, if Mayor Ford gets paid for his speech before the Chamber of Commerce on how to effectively run a big city, or his appearance on the Jimmy Kimmel show, I am sure that Mayor Ford will not bill the city of TO. We shall see.


----------



## Macfury

Soon Toronto will be known by its reputation for fairness and tolerance regarding crack-smoking.


----------



## SINC

The bright side is he is giving Toronto a better rep than the Maple Leafs do.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> The bright side is he is giving Toronto a better rep than the Maple Leafs do.


:lmao::lmao:


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> The bright side is he is giving Toronto a better rep than the Maple Leafs do.


Meh. No one in LA pays attention to hockey anyway.

Well, aside from a few displaced Canadians.


----------



## SINC

Sonal said:


> Meh. No one in LA pays attention to hockey anyway.
> 
> Well, aside from a few displaced Canadians.


Oh no, hardly at all. Ever heard of the LA Kings, BTW?

Didn't they win a Stanley Cup just lately, as in 2012? When is the last time the Maple Leafs won?


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Oh no, hardly at all. Ever heard of the LA Kings, BTW?
> 
> Didn't they win a Stanley Cup just lately, as in 2012? When is the last time the Maple Leafs won?


Sure I've heard of them. How many people in LA have heard of them?


----------



## SINC

Well, you can rest assured no one in LA knows the Maple Leafs ever won the Stanley Cup. Hockey there was unheard of back in 1967!


----------



## Sonal

SINC said:


> Well, you can rest assured no one in LA knows the Maple Leafs ever won the Stanley Cup. Hockey there was unheard of back in 1967!


Yes. As I said in my earlier post. No one in LA pays attention to hockey anyway.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rob Ford Shows Up Early to Jimmy Kimmel Live - YouTube

Rob Ford appears Jimmy Kimmel show after Toronto Mayor Rob Ford attends Academy Awards - YouTube

Rob Ford appears on Jimmy Kimmel Live - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## Sonal

Olivia Chow is going to enter the race.

Olivia Chow all set to enter Toronto mayoral race: Hepburn | Toronto Star


----------



## Macfury

Sonal said:


> Olivia Chow is going to enter the race.
> 
> Olivia Chow all set to enter Toronto mayoral race: Hepburn | Toronto Star


Let my personal elimination round begin!


----------



## CubaMark

The "average" Mayor of Toronto....

*Help Spread the Message: Rob Ford is Actually a Multi-Millionaire*












> Rob Ford likes to present himself as a common man, a man of the people and as someone who understands the struggles of the lower class. And yet, he was born with a multimillion dollar silver spoon in his mouth and everything he ever asked for.
> 
> It's pretty hard to argue that you’re just another struggling average Joe when you grew up going to high class football camps with the Washington Redskins, your family owned multiple private residences, three Florida condominiums, three plots of waterfront Muskoka land, and a $100 million per year label printing company.
> 
> Rob Ford claims that he understands the hard working blue collar people of the GTA, but Rob has never worked a blue collar job in his life.
> 
> He has never had to worry if he can pay a bill on time, feed his kids or if there will be a job waiting for him in the morning. Rob Ford is a rich, disconnected multi millionaire who has lied to the people of this city, over and over and over.


(Rabble)


----------



## BigDL

Hey CM don't let the fact get in the way of a rippin' good yarn.

People that believe in Rob Ford don't need no stinkn' facts. 

Like Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart all the people need is faith and a rippin' good tale of the 'merican Deam. Poor boy makes good, but "I don't know where things went wrong...but now your all washed up."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABfsIInfXgU]Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young - American Dream - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## SINC

BigDL said:


> Hey CM don't let the fact get in the way of a rippin' good yarn.
> 
> People that believe in Rob Ford don't need no stinkn' facts.
> 
> Like Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart all the people need is faith and a rippin' good tale of the 'merican Deam. Poor boy makes good, but "I don't know where things wrong...but now your all washed up."
> 
> Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young - American Dream - YouTube




What has the 'merican Deam got to do witn a Canadian mayor? And WTH is a deam?


----------



## Macfury

The whole thing is ridiculous. It's just like mean-spirited and underperforming lefties to demonize success.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> The whole thing is ridiculous. It's just like mean-spirited and underperforming lefties to demonize success.


No, MF. What's ridiculous are incredibly privileged people putting themselves out there as average, hard-working joes.

What's even more ridiculous are the people who fall for it, and support them.


----------



## CubaMark

*Police take out new search warrant in Mayor Rob Ford case*

_Police have taken out a new search warrant in the Project Brazen 2 case connected to Mayor Rob Ford, the first court order since the Ontario Provincial Police assumed oversight of the year-long probe.

The warrant, filed in court Friday, is sealed. Unlike previous warrants, the Star was not able to determine what police are seeking. Previous warrants have related to a Toronto house, telephone records and access to data on an iPhone.

Police would not say what information the warrant, signed by a judge, will help them obtain. One possibility is that it is a further warrant related to the iCloud information connected to Ford’s friend and occasional driver Alexander “Sandro” Lisi, whose parents’ house was previously searched and whose phone was seized by the police.

There were close to 900 telephone calls, text messages and meetings between Lisi, an accused drug dealer, and Ford or members of his staff, according to a Star analysis of police documents already released._

(TorontoStar)


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> No, MF. What's ridiculous are incredibly privileged people putting themselves out there as average, hard-working joes.
> 
> What's even more ridiculous are the people who fall for it, and support them.


Again, with the false premise. His voters feel that he can represent an average Joe in the way that an elitist like Smitherman never could. It simply doesn't anger them that Ford comes from a privileged background in the way that it angers the likes of you.


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> Again, with the false premise. His voters feel that he can represent an average Joe in the way that an elitist like Smitherman never could. It simply doesn't anger them that Ford comes from a privileged background in the way that it angers the likes of you.


MF, would you be so kind as to define what "elitest" means to you, particularly as it applies to Smitherman and not to Ford? I'm getting some seriously confused messages from you...


----------



## Macfury

Spot on. Only Olivia chow could make me hold my nose and vote for Ford.


----------



## lcoughey

Rob Ford has been rather amusing to watch on the news and make fun of, I sort of like him. That said, if I were in Toronto and could vote this election, I'd be voting John Tory in hopes to maintain fiscal responsibility without the circus we've been watching for the past 3 1/2 years.


----------



## Macfury

Tory lost me when he supported public funding of all religious schools in Ontario. Right now his top issue for Toronto is more downtown subways, part of the misguided movement to increase downtown densification. 

I'll take the drug addict.


----------



## lcoughey

Macfury said:


> Tory lost me when he supported public funding of all religious schools in Ontario. Right now his top issue for Toronto is more downtown subways, part of the misguided movement to increase downtown densification.
> 
> I'll take the drug addict.


My interpretation with the religious schools funding is that if the Catholics can be publicly funded, why not other religions? But, that is not even an issue at the municipal level and is a provincial matter.

I don't live in Toronto and try to avoid going there as much as possible. Not because I have anything against the city itself, the traffic just annoys me.


----------



## Macfury

lcoughey said:


> My interpretation with the religious schools funding is that if the Catholics can be publicly funded, why not other religions? But, that is not even an issue at the municipal level and is a provincial matter.


I look at provincial behaviour when provincial pols go local. Just like Smitherman's $1 billion e-health debacle convinced me he had no place heading up the city.

My feeling on religious schools has been--if you're not publicly supporting any other religious school system, why support the Catholic system? And I'm a supporter of privately funded religious schools. I'm not sure that many of the Catholic schools are even Catholic enough to warrant funding them under the current regime.


----------



## lcoughey

Macfury said:


> I look at provincial behaviour when provincial pols go local. Just like Smitherman's $1 billion e-health debacle convinced me he had no place heading up the city.
> 
> My feeling on religious schools has been--if you're not publicly supporting any other religious school system, why support the Catholic system? And I'm a supporter of privately funded religious schools. I'm not sure that many of the Catholic schools are even Catholic enough to warrant funding them under the current regime.


I agree, I'd rather ditch Catholic funding than fund others. But, it seems that the Catholics have too much political pull, so it is all about being fair, rather than making sense.

My wife teaches my kids at home. Any funding out there for me?


----------



## Macfury

lcoughey said:


> I agree, I'd rather ditch Catholic funding than fund others. But, it seems that the Catholics have too much political pull, so it is all about being fair, rather than making sense.
> 
> My wife teaches my kids at home. Any funding out there for me?


Catholic schools have been grandfathered into the original documents of Confederation, so they would be hard to unseat. I think I would define what a Catholic school needs to do to be considered Catholic at this point. Bet you a lot of the schools wouldn't pass, and those could be turned over to the public system.

My preference is the voucher system, with public and private schools competing for "clients." Additional religious teaching would be on the parents' dime. Homeschoolers should be allowed to keep the money, provided the kids meet some minimal academic criteria. The test wouldn't be designed to unfairly target homeschoolers, just to make sure that ne'er do wells don't simply keep their kids at home to collect a cheque.


----------



## CubaMark

(Michael DeAdder / Halifax Chronicle-Herald)


----------



## Macfury

DeAdder is so far left he thinks the remaining centrist candidates are on the right! Talk about observer bias!!


----------



## Macfury

Rob Ford files defence in jailhouse beating lawsuit accusation - Toronto - CBC News

This sort of thing keeps the Ford story endlessly fascinating. What other mayor could raise a plausible defense involving Hulk Hogan?


----------



## CubaMark




----------



## Macfury

Yes, that's what I said.


----------



## fjnmusic

The new Ford Escort.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slipstream

First time I've visited this thread. My iPad is muted, but my ears are mentally wringing from the visual mayhem -- loud honks, buzzers, wheeee, bells, falling furniture, loud over-talking voices, crashing vehicles, breaking glass, general turmoil. Looking forward to spring, sitting under a green tree listening to birds chirping, dogs barking and kids playing.


----------



## SINC

So, the OPP closed the investigation on Ford and said there will be no charges. Nothing to see here, move along. 

But the Toronto police say they are going to keep hounding the poor guy. What's wrong with this picture? Yep, you got it. The Toronto police. They continue to seek vengence and that is all it can be called now.


----------



## Macfury

You got that right, SINC.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> You got that right, SINC.


A guy who has admitted to doing hard drugs, blackout-level public drunkenness, is very likely to have been driving while under the influence... yeah, it's just vengefulness on the part of the cops... 

I get the feeling that Ford could mow down a kindergarten full of toddlers while high as a kite and eight times the legal BAL and you guys would still paint him as a victim.


----------



## gwillikers

CubaMark said:


> I get the feeling that Ford could mow down a kindergarten full of toddlers while high as a kite and eight times the legal BAL and you guys would still paint him as a victim.


Now you're just being silly.  

:lmao:


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> A guy who has admitted to doing hard drugs, blackout-level public drunkenness, is very likely to have been driving while under the influence... yeah, it's just vengefulness on the part of the cops...
> 
> I get the feeling that Ford could mow down a kindergarten full of toddlers while high as a kite and eight times the legal BAL and you guys would still paint him as a victim.


Whenthe OPP is though with Ford, time for the Toronto police to drop the case.


----------



## eMacMan

SINC said:


> So, the OPP closed the investigation on Ford and said there will be no charges. Nothing to see here, move along.
> 
> But the Toronto police say they are going to keep hounding the poor guy. What's wrong with this picture? Yep, you got it. The Toronto police. They continue to seek vengence and that is all it can be called now.





Macfury said:


> You got that right, SINC.


So if this had been say Olivia Chow at the centre of this investigation, your reactions would have been exactly the same?


----------



## CubaMark

eMacMan said:


> So if this had been say Olivia Chow at the centre of this investigation, your reactions would have been exactly the same?


:clap:


----------



## SINC

eMacMan said:


> So if this had been say Olivia Chow at the centre of this investigation, your reactions would have been exactly the same?


Absolutely. 

When a police force as large, experienced and solid as the OPP says there is no case here, there is no case no matter the person involved. Toronto's police chief in particular and the force in general are politically motivated and that bias has now become obvious.


----------



## CubaMark

Don, I'm not trying to pick a fight here... but your stance on Ford surprises me, particularly given your very public contempt for anyone who does even "soft" drugs. How do you reconcile these contradictory positions?


----------



## SINC

I know that Mark, but this is not about his drug use and as you well know I do not condone that at all. This is however, about his right to be free from persecution. The OPP investigated, found nothing and dropped the case. The Toronto chief chooses to insist in continuing without any evidence and I think that is purely political. Maybe he wants Ford's job?


----------



## Macfury

eMacMan said:


> So if this had been say Olivia Chow at the centre of this investigation, your reactions would have been exactly the same?


I would have been less sorry to see her persecuted, but just as adamant that the persecution cease once the OPP dropped the case.


----------



## CubaMark

SINC said:


> The Toronto chief chooses to insist in continuing without any evidence and I think that is purely political. Maybe he wants Ford's job?


I'm obviously far and away from being clued in to Toronto city politics, but let's be clear - there seems to be ample evidence of Ford being involved in illegal activity (you know, like admitting to smoking crack cocaine) and a pile of circumstantial evidence of other probably illegal activities (late-night visits to gas stations in which his pal just happens to be nearby and drops envelopes -of what?- into his vehicle). Public drunkenness on top of that, as a representative of one of the country's major cities. And then there are the allegations (which sure as heck ring as possible/likely if not true) of arranging a jailhouse beating to cover his ass....

They may not have, currently, evidence which can be used to prosecute, but man, there's a good pile of evidence nonetheless.


----------



## JAMG

*Adam Vaughan to run for liberals in federal byelection*

Coun. Adam Vaughan to run for Liberals in federal byelection | Metro

This is more Municipal than Federal right now so I am posting it here.
The part I find the most ironic it the statement:

"His frustration with the circus-like atmosphere at city hall under Ford played into his decision to make the move"

He and his fellow Councillors being as, if not more responsible for the "circus-like atmosphere".

Ford is a train wreck but he is not a one man show.


----------



## BigDL

Seems Mayor Ford is going to rehab yes, yes, yes.

Rob off to rehab


----------



## CubaMark

Aaaaaand there's another video....

*Rob Ford takes leave as new drug video emerges*


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










_A second video of Toronto Mayor Rob Ford smoking what has been described as crack-cocaine by a self-professed drug dealer was secretly filmed in his sister’s basement early Saturday morning.

The clip, which was viewed by two Globe and Mail reporters, shows Mr. Ford taking a drag from a long copper-coloured pipe, exhaling a cloud of smoke, his right arm convulsing. The footage is part of a package of three videos the dealer said was surreptitiously filmed around 1:15 a.m., and which he says he is now selling for “at least six figures.”

Mr. Ford declined to answer questions from The Globe and Mail. Less than an hour after The Globe asked the mayor for comment, his lawyer, Dennis Morris, said Mr. Ford is planning to “take a break” from the mayoral election.

In one of the clips shown to The Globe and Mail on Wednesday, the mayor rapidly shifts his weight back and forth on the spot, talking into his cellphone and his right arm swinging at his side. When the camera pans around the room, a man that looks like Alessandro “Sandro” Lisi, the mayor’s former driver and an accused drug-dealing extortionist, can be seen in the background. Mr. Ford’s sister, Kathy, who has admitted in media interviews to being a drug addict, is sitting in front of her brother. In the last of three clips, Mr. Ford is holding the pipe and speaking to his sister._​
(Globe & Mail)


----------



## eMacMan

Sounds like he is now about to slither into rehab, although which facility is still undetermined.

Maybe the Betty Ford Clinic would be the prefect match.


----------



## thatleetboy

It's unclear whether he actually got into the USA to go to rehab!
Rob Ford turned back from United States - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

thatleetboy said:


> It's unclear whether he actually got into the USA to go to rehab!
> Rob Ford turned back from United States - The Globe and Mail


He got a better offer on rehab costs?


----------



## Sonal

Macfury said:


> He got a better offer on rehab costs?


His brother says Rob's in rehab (doesn't say where) and losing weight. 

I'm very puzzled by the emphasis on Rob's weight.


----------



## Macfury

That is odd. Fat makes people jolly.


----------



## eMacMan

Sonal said:


> His brother says Rob's in rehab (doesn't say where) and losing weight.
> 
> I'm very puzzled by the emphasis on Rob's weight.


I think the terminology needs clarifying. For either cocaine or alcohol addiction, the 28 days Ford is talking about is merely the time span required to detox, that is get the various substances completely out of his system. Rehab itself really does not start until after detox. In Ford's case figure at least 3 months post-detox to get to the point where he stands a snowball's chance in hell of staying clean.

Otherwise the change will be very much along the Obama line. That is, even more of the same.


----------



## CubaMark

I truly do hope that this guy is really in an actual honest-to-goodness rehab facility.

But forgive me for being suspicious. His lawyer's assertion that Rob Ford Is '100 Per Cent' In Rehab ...well... sure it's not 98%? I mean... what? That kind of exaggeration often is used to cover a flat-out lie.

Now, if in a few weeks Rob comes out of his basement, sees his shadow, and declares himself sober for life.... yeah, Torontonians probably would still vote for him....


----------



## FeXL

CubaMark said:


> ...Torontonians probably would still vote for him....


Yeah, funny that.

Things is, he's probably still the best choice for the job, warts & all...


----------



## Macfury

Given the dross running against Ford, I would have no trouble voting for him.


----------



## CubaMark

_My "man cave" rehab theory is looking less outlandish..._

*Rob Ford sightings case of mistaken identity, says Doug Ford*


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> Given the dross running against Ford, I would have no trouble voting for him.


Hey MacFury

What's your take on John Tory? I really don't know much about him but he claims to be a conservative and he's not a crack addict or an alcoholic (as far as we know ). I'll admit I don't know much of him or his policies but I don't see conservatives getting excited about him running. I must admit if I were in Toronto, if my choices were Chow or Ford, I'd hold my nose and vote for him but any viable conservative would trump him.


----------



## Macfury

John Tory is a mealy-mouthed faux conservative. One of those guys too eager to be well-liked by everyone. He doesn't get my vote unless it's the only way to beat Chow.


----------



## MacGuiver

Macfury said:


> John Tory is a mealy-mouthed faux conservative. One of those guys too eager to be well-liked by everyone. He doesn't get my vote unless it's the only way to beat Chow.


I see. Someone you figure not tough enough to do the right thing if it means a blow to his popularity.

I kinda get that sense with Tim Hudak. Lefties on my Facebook were gleefully posting Hudaks Campaign kickoff from Metalworks Music Studio as a fail where the press persistently grilled him on his vote against $45 million in cash to some music fund while standing in a music studio.
He kept trying to change message to the million jobs strategy but they kept at him on the vote. He ended up walking off like a dog with his tail between his legs.

That was where I think a strong leader would lay it on the line. Yes I voted against a 45 million dollar handout for making music. We are in debt to the tune of over $20,000 for every man, woman and child in this province and rising, 3 times worst that the teetering on bankruptcy state of California. Reality is we need to get our spending under control fast and unfortunately, funding music isn't a core service we need to be funding right now. 
Since Metalworks has never taken that government handout, site them as an example of how entrepreneurial spirit, producing a product or service people want and need is the formula for success.
Sure this would **** of many in the arts crowd since they're heavily invested in the socialist mentality so I don't see it affecting his chances in anything but a positive way.


----------



## Macfury

I agree. The lefties positively crow about sticking their hand in my wallet to give it to some marginal group they support, but when it comes time to proudly state that the money belongs in MY pocket, man conservatives can't bring themselves to do the same. Mike Harris was great at that.


----------



## MacGuiver

Yeah I miss him. We badly need a leader like Mike right now. I used to love when the fat cat teachers unions were promising his demise only to see him re-elected by the rest of us, not so privileged Ontarian's. 
Hudak will get my vote since he's probably the closest to my fiscal conservatism but they could have done better. Frankly when he lost to McGuinty last time around it was a clear sign his leadership style was a problem. That was one thing I admired about Ford is he wasn't afraid to take on the unions and the status quo. Unfortunately his personal life is a mess and getting things done is severely handicapped as a result.


----------



## Sonal

Karen Stintz and David Soknacki are both on the right-side of the spectrum, but neither of them are really of the "cut everything and let the free market rule" school of conservatism. Then again, for all the lip service to the idea, neither is Rob Ford...

Both are polling very low, though at this stage in the campaign, both David Miller (term 1) and Rob Ford were polling about as low, and then shot up near the end. 

Stintz fails to impress me, but I like Soknacki so far. 

John Tory is really good at sounding very good, but ultimately his ideas are pretty lame.


----------



## CubaMark

_I'm not ashamed to admit - I'm surprised as hell at this.... I really thought he was watching the Habs-Bruins games in his (or his sister's) basement all this time..._

Rob Ford in rehab, doctor confirms to CBC News - Toronto - CBC News



> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford is, indeed, in a residential treatment program for substance abuse at a clinic in North America and has been since last week, according to a supervising doctor at the facility who spoke with CBC News.
> 
> The health care provider, speaking with consent from the mayor, told CBC News that Ford arrived at the facility late on the night of May 1 and has been enrolled in an in-patient program there ever since. Ford left the facility last Saturday, May 3, after a medical exam and was taken to a hospital where he was admitted for four days before returning to the treatment centre on May 7, escorted.
> 
> The doctor told CBC that while in hospital Ford received “concurrent care” with the treatment facility.
> 
> “I have every assurance and confidence he was nowhere else,” the physician said.
> 
> CBC News was granted confidential access to Ford’s doctor in order to confirm his enrolment in the treatment program amid a week of rumoured sightings, speculation and demands by some on Toronto city council for confirmation that Ford was actually in rehab after months of revelations, lies and evasion about his drug and alcohol use.





> *In the words of Doug Ford:*
> 
> *Why strike a deal with the CBC?*
> 
> _Well first of all I respect the CBC. I believe they are one of the most credible organizations in Canada in the media, in my opinion. And that it will stop the speculation, for example, a 15-year-old young lady spotted Rob Ford at the Tim Horton's. Another person spotted him in Hamilton. Spotted him in Calgary. Spotted him everywhere. Just to stop the speculation to let the people of Toronto know that Rob is taking this seriously, is getting treatment and that he wants to continue coming back and serving the people._


(CBC)


----------



## BigDL

I personally believe the only proof of Rob Ford's stint in rehab, is for the Mayor, to show up clean and sober. 

If Mr. Ford does the hard work of remaining clean and sober that should be good enough for everyone.

I am confident that if Mr. Ford "fell off the wagon" the world would soon know. 

The old adage, do your job right everyday no one notices, screw up once and no one will forget, comes to mind.

I wish Mr. Ford well with his recovery.


----------



## Macfury

I don't even care if he's clean and sober, provided he keeps tax increases within the rate of inflation.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> I don't even care if he's clean and sober, provided he keeps tax increases within the rate of inflation.


How low have fallen the standards for public officials... :yikes:


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> How low have fallen the standards for public officials... :yikes:


I know clean and sober politicians who are monkeys on my back.


----------



## Dr.G.

Drop the Pop? Library Gets Request to Ban Dr. Seuss Book | NBC Chicago

Where is Mayor Rob Ford now that he is really needed? He would never allow this to take place in a TO library. He is the defender of truth, justice and the various Dr. Seuss books.


----------



## CubaMark

_More sad Ford tales...._

*Rob Ford: One wild night in March | Toronto Star*


----------



## CubaMark

_....so.... a rehab with an open door policy. Ok... equidistant from rehab and his family cottage.... interesting...._

*Rob Ford spotted in Bracebridge*












> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford has been spotted in Bracebridge, Ont., a town about an hour away from both his family cottage and an addiction rehabilitation centre.
> 
> Photos of Ford posing with people on the street also emerged on social media sites Twitter and Instagram.
> 
> Coun. Doug Ford told CBC News that he cannot reach his brother, but it is his understanding that the mayor is permitted to leave the rehab facility as long as he's accompanied.
> 
> Dennis Morris, Ford's lawyer, said he doesn't know the particular rules of this facility, but says rehab is not the equivalent of incarceration. Morris said it's not a surprise to him that Ford is out doing things, and it would be unfair to track him.





> The Ford family is known to have a cottage on nearby Fawn Lake, about halfway between Huntsville and Bracebridge.
> 
> The GreeneStone Muskoka addiction rehabilitation facility is located about an hour from Bracebridge, though it has not been confirmed that Ford is at that facility.
> 
> On May 9, CBC News confirmed with Ford's personal physician that the mayor was receiving treatment at a professional rehabilitation facility.


(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

He's not in prison. Non-story.


----------



## Oakbridge

Macfury said:


> He's not in prison. Non-story.


Yes it is a story as he is still being paid by the City of Toronto. 

I believe that most people, even those who can't stand the man would like to see him get help for any addictions he has. But he appears to be mocking the entire rehabilitation process. In my opinion, it's a slap in the face to those people who struggle with addictions and have had to deal with them and the consequences.


----------



## heavyall

It's not a non-story, it's a typically fraudulent story by the CBC. A hit piece, nothing more.


----------



## CubaMark

heavyall said:


> It's not a non-story, it's *a typically fraudulent story* by the CBC. A hit piece, nothing more.


So... you're saying he *wasn't* in Bracebridge posing for photos and chatting with the locals? :-O


----------



## Macfury

Oakbridge said:


> Yes it is a story as he is still being paid by the City of Toronto.
> 
> I believe that most people, even those who can't stand the man would like to see him get help for any addictions he has. But he appears to be mocking the entire rehabilitation process. In my opinion, it's a slap in the face to those people who struggle with addictions and have had to deal with them and the consequences.


Again, rehab is not prison. In his free time, he is visiting the locals.


----------



## CubaMark

*Man, a week cannot go by....* 

*Rob Ford's Escalade impounded, woman charged with DUI*



> A 36-year-old woman driving a black Cadillac Escalade, reportedly owned by Toronto Mayor Rob Ford, was arrested for impaired driving on Tuesday afternoon in Bracebridge, Ont.
> 
> The Ontario Provincial Police arrested Lee Anne McRobb of Muskoka Lakes Township and charged her with impaired driving.





> McRobb was the lone occupant in the vehicle when it was pulled over on Tuesday.





> A source at the rehab facility where Ford is receiving treatment told CBC News that McRobb had previously been a patient there, but was discharged in the past five or six days.
> 
> The source had no information on how she might have come to be driving Ford's SUV.





> he woman also claims to have been in rehab with Ford, but says she is "not anymore."
> 
> When asked on the video how she wound up behind the wheel of Ford’s SUV, the woman replied, “That’s for me to know.”
> 
> The CEO of the rehab facility said Ford has not been off the property in the last week except to attend, while supervised, an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.
> 
> The CEO also told CBC News that Ford has been "clean and sober" and that his vehicle has not been at the facility.
> 
> Both Ford's lawyer, Dennis Morris, and his brother Coun. Doug Ford said they were unable to confirm the report.



(CBC)


----------



## Macfury

Man, that's desperate reporting. A week can't go by without some sad sack reporter trying to keep Ford in the news.


----------



## Oakbridge

Macfury said:


> Man, that's desperate reporting. A week can't go by without some sad sack reporter trying to keep Ford in the news.


And if the politician in question was [_insert name here of someone you consider to be a lefty communist_] you'd be hailing the story as good investigative journalism and claiming that the citizens have a right to know where their tax dollars are going. 

If Ford had been truthful with his constituents from the very beginning, I'd be the first to say that if he's trying to get help that he should be left alone. But he has continued to lie and even went after the media claiming that they were the ones who we're lying. 

Rob and Doug Ford have created the circus that continues to cost the city money. Every stunt that he pulls is a distraction. I'd love to see an impartial auditor tally up the value in lost productivity from city employees when they've been unable to deal with their jobs because of all of the distractions. The lost value in paying a mayor who has not done what he was elected to do because he's either not shown up to work on time, or when he did show up he was holding press conferences that were not about city business. The costs for extra staff and security to handle the international press inquiries. 

Even though it would it would be interesting to know what this past year has cost the city, the expense to do the research would simply be another added expense. 

The Fords have wasted enough tax dollars.


----------



## Macfury

Oakbridge said:


> And if the politician in question was [_insert name here of someone you consider to be a lefty communist_] you'd be hailing the story as good investigative journalism and claiming that the citizens have a right to know where their tax dollars are going.


If someone else was riding Olivia Chow's bicycle and pulled over for being inebriated I would consider it a non-story as well.


----------



## CubaMark

Macfury said:


> If someone else was riding Olivia Chow's bicycle and pulled over for being inebriated I would consider it a non-story as well.


Drunk cyclists are unlikely to kill.

What is the liability with Ford's Escalade in the event of a serious accident? Is it his personal vehicle or does the City of Toronto insure it / etc.?

And MF - Oakbridge is right on. There's no question in my mind that a lefty politician in this situation would be receiving no charity from you.


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> There's no question in my mind that a lefty politician in this situation would be receiving no charity from you.


You happen to be wrong. I probably wouldn't even read the story beyond the headline. My interest with politicians is primarily how much they spend and on what. 

Example: when President Obama was being criticized by some for apparently refusing to place his hand over his heart during the pledge of allegiance, I defended him. It's too easy to pile on when you disagree with someone politically and I don't take part in that.


----------



## Oakbridge

Macfury said:


> My interest with politicians is primarily how much they spend and on what.


So have you figured out what the City of Toronto has spent in the past year on Rob Ford? Wouldn't that fall into the category of what a politician has spent?

Again if he had removed himself from public office, this would be a non-story for me. But he continues to collect a pay check. I would question whether part of the benefits he receives as a City of Toronto employee are going towards his rehab. There is a distraction at City Hall every time something involving him comes up. Even if it is just the receptionist or switchboard operator having to answer a call or the public relations office or mayor's office having to answer a question. 

If he had apologized to the people of the city that he serves and admitted that his actions were a distraction and were causing a loss of productivity, and that he was going to leave office to get help and to allow the remaining elected officials the opportunity to go back to running the city, I would have applauded him. 

But he continues to treat this all as a big joke. 

And the tab for his behaviour continues to grow.


----------



## Macfury

Oakbridge said:


> So have you figured out what the City of Toronto has spent in the past year on Rob Ford? Wouldn't that fall into the category of what a politician has spent?


I've estimated it. Overall I'm satisfied that Ford is spending less than that ninny Smitherman would have spent.

Even if a mayor built a throne in in the office and ate lobster daily, I would gladly put up with that in favour of an overall lower tax bill.


----------



## CubaMark

And there we have it, folks. Ideology trumps reality every time... :lmao:


----------



## Macfury

CubaMark said:


> And there we have it, folks. Ideology trumps reality every time... :lmao:


That describes the "green" environmental movement perfectly.


----------



## Oakbridge

Macfury said:


> I've estimated it. Overall I'm satisfied that Ford is spending less than that ninny Smitherman would have spent.
> 
> Even if a mayor built a throne in in the office and ate lobster daily, I would gladly put up with that in favour of an overall lower tax bill.


Wow. Your measurement is that he spends less than someone else.

So why not just have City Hall stop spending altogether? 

Roads? Eh who needs em. 
Public transit? Who cares, I've got a car.
Lights on the roads? Nah, I've got my own flashlight.
Garbage pickup? I'll just burn mine.
Parks? Bulldoze them under and put up another condo.
Police? Don't need em, I've got little Betsy in the night stand to take care of me.

Get rid of all of the above, and more and you'll have a much lower tax bill.


----------



## JAMG

Personally, I would be more appalled at how much was spent trying to force Ford out of office. I would be offended (if I were a resident of Toronto) at the lengths many Councillors and civil servants and city staff have gone to circumvent the last mayoral election. He was elected and if you had a just reason to force him to resign you would have used it a long, long time ago.

If you think electing Tory or Chow is suddenly going to erase 4years and bring back the civility and (hack) respect, anyone ever had for the office, you are crazy.
Toronto politics are going to be very ugly for a very long time...

Good luck,


----------



## Macfury

Oakbridge said:


> Wow. Your measurement is that he spends less than someone else.
> 
> So why not just have City Hall stop spending altogether?
> 
> Roads? Eh who needs em.
> Public transit? Who cares, I've got a car.
> Lights on the roads? Nah, I've got my own flashlight.
> Garbage pickup? I'll just burn mine.
> Parks? Bulldoze them under and put up another condo.
> Police? Don't need em, I've got little Betsy in the night stand to take care of me.
> 
> Get rid of all of the above, and more and you'll have a much lower tax bill.


That's a bit of an embarrassing salvo for you. Yes, I want a mayor to spend less, but I already specified that I cared what they spent the money on.

Ford spent less than Smitherman promised to while maintaining all services. I wish he would have cut more services, but there you go--can't have everything.


I specified that I cared what the money was spent on as well. I agree with your views on public transit. Make the user pay. I also agree that far less should be spent on all of the above.


----------



## Dr.G.

Welcome Back Kotter Theme Song HQ (Opening) - YouTube

Rob Ford will return to mayor's job on June 30 after rehab - Toronto - CBC News

Rob Ford returns: 5 post-scandal political comeback attempts - Toronto - CBC News


----------



## JAMG

This just in.... Rob Ford will speak publicly this afternoon.

Toronto Media who have maintained for years that nothing he says is good enough,
are upset that He has not invited them nor will he attempt to answer their questions.

John Tory, (running a poor third so far) demands that Rob Ford resign so he, (John Tory) won't be so humiliated in defeat that he won't be able to fall back in his cushy radio job. Vote spitting on the right is the only chance Chow has since she has no real support outside of Downtown.

This is going to be an ugly election and it has not even started yet. The people who think they have already won, have no clue as to how out of touch they are with the general public.


----------



## Macfury

Tory is such a monstrous, bumbling ass. The notion that he represents some sort of fiscally conservative force is ludicrous.


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting race brewing ................

"John Tory has taken the lead in the race for Toronto mayor, with Rob Ford trailing in third place one week after returning from rehab, according to a new poll.

The Nanos Research poll commissioned by the Ontario Convenience Stores Association found that if Toronto voters went to the ballot box today, John Tory would win with support from 39.1 per cent of decided voters, followed by Olivia Chow at 32.7 per cent and Rob Ford at 21.7 per cent. Both Karen Stintz and David Soknacki would receive less than 5 per cent of the vote, the poll indicates."

Poll has John Tory leading in Toronto's mayoral race - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Macfury

This puts me in a terrible position--I would have to vote for the bumbling incompetence of a John Tory in order to defeat the willful malfeasance of an Olivia Chow. I would feel much more comfortable voting for Rob Ford.


----------



## macintosh doctor

Macfury said:


> This puts me in a terrible position--I would have to vote for the bumbling incompetence of a John Tory in order to defeat the willful malfeasance of an Olivia Chow. I would feel much more comfortable voting for Rob Ford.


any choice is better than a financially incompetent Chow. But based on our imbecile voters that voted in the Provincial Liberals after stealing and lying I am not holding my breath for any logic in the outcome. Toronto deserves all the suffering it is experiencing. I left Toronto as I never understood how property taxes for a freehold town home [ which had to pay for private services ] could be over $6000/yr and then a home that is worth millions pays the same or less.


----------



## Macfury

The problem with Toronto is that when it experiences the pains associated with a left-wing urban government, it blames those problems on private industry--then begs for more government solutions.


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> This puts me in a terrible position--I would have to vote for the bumbling incompetence of a John Tory in order to defeat the willful malfeasance of an Olivia Chow. I would feel much more comfortable voting for Rob Ford.


An interesting voting strategy, Macfury. Bonne chance, mon ami.


----------



## Dr.G.

Interesting change in the TO election for mayor. Rob Ford has dropped out of the race, but is still running in Ward 2. He is encouraging his brother, Doug, to run in his place. Still, I wish him well in his effort to get better from his medical situation right now. We shall see.

Rob Ford's statement: 'My heart is heavy' - The Globe and Mail


----------



## Dr.G.

Embattled Toronto Mayor Rob Ford withdraws from race - CNN.com

This even made the news on CNN.


----------



## Dr.G.

Rob Ford withdraws from mayor's race, Doug files to take his place | Toronto Star

A dynasty in the making???????????


----------



## Macfury

Gives me an alternative to that left-wing loser, Ms. Chow. Thanks, Doug!


----------



## Dr.G.

Macfury said:


> Gives me an alternative to that left-wing loser, Ms. Chow. Thanks, Doug!


We shall see. Let's see ............. Rob Ford .......... Doug Ford .............. Sparkle Ford (Doug's daughter) ........... Farkle Ford (Doug's son) ............ yes, a true dynasty in the making.


----------



## screature

Dr.G. said:


> Interesting change in the TO election for mayor. Rob Ford has dropped out of the race, but is still running in Ward 2. He is encouraging his brother, Doug, to run in his place. Still, I wish him well in his effort to get better from his medical situation right now. We shall see.
> 
> Rob Ford's statement: 'My heart is heavy' - The Globe and Mail


I'm not sure that he wrote his statement (knowing what I do about politics) but I thought it was actually pretty good.

Despite his all too obvious and public faults I wish him all the best for a full recovery.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> I'm not sure that he wrote his statement (knowing what I do about politics) but I thought it was actually pretty good.
> 
> Despite his all too obvious and public faults I wish him all the best for a full recovery.


True. Say what you want about his politics, but I wish him a full recovery as well. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> We shall see. Let's see ............. Rob Ford .......... Doug Ford .............. Sparkle Ford (Doug's daughter) ........... Farkle Ford (Doug's son) ............ yes, a true dynasty in the making.


_Farkle_ is the last name Dr. G.


----------



## Dr.G.

macfury said:


> _farkle_ is the last name dr. G.


:d


----------



## Macfury

Dr.G. said:


> True. Say what you want about his politics, but I wish him a full recovery as well. Paix, mon ami.


I say that in general I like his politics AND I wish him a full recovery as well.


----------



## Dr.G.

Sorry to hear of this diagnosis. Interesting that Rob Ford make the lead item on CNN.com


----------



## SINC

Yes, I too wish him well, no one needs an aggressive cancer like he has.


----------



## Dr.G.

SINC said:


> Yes, I too wish him well, no one needs an aggressive cancer like he has.


All too true, Sinc.


----------



## Fox

Macfury said:


> I say that in general I like his politics AND I wish him a full recovery as well.


I say that I totally don't like his politics BUT I wish him a full recovery.


----------



## screature

Fox said:


> I say that I totally don't like his politics *BUT I wish him a full recovery.*


As do I.

I suspect that his political career is over, but hopefully for him, his family, friends and supporters, his life isn't.

Time will tell, but I wish him godspeed.


----------



## Dr.G.

screature said:


> As do I.
> 
> I suspect that his political career is over, but hopefully for him, his family, friends and supporters, his life isn't.
> 
> Time will tell, but I wish him godspeed.


Well said, screature. Paix, mon ami.


----------



## Macfury

He's still running for City Council and I suspect he will be elected.



screature said:


> As do I.
> 
> I suspect that his political career is over, but hopefully for him, his family, friends and supporters, his life isn't.
> 
> Time will tell, but I wish him godspeed.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> *He's still running for City Council* and I suspect he will be elected.


I know that, and he might very well be elected.

But, with all due respect to him, his family, friends and supporters this is not the time to discuss such matters in relation to the future of Rob Ford... 

First he needs to get well... which by the sounds of it will take a very long time... if ever...

I think this is a good time to just be a human being and not a politico.


----------



## Macfury

You said you suspected his political career was over, so I guess you wanted to bring up such matters.

I'm confident he will both win the seat AND recover from his illness.



screature said:


> I know that, and he might very well be elected.
> 
> But, with all due respect to him, his family, friends and supporters this is not the time to discuss such matters in relation to the future of Rob Ford...
> 
> First he needs to get well... which by the sounds of it will take a very long time... if ever...
> 
> I think this is a good time to just be a human being and not a politico.


----------



## SINC

About time someone called a spade, a spade. Language warning:

The Reaction to Rob Ford's Cancer Proves We Don't Take Addiction Seriously


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> You said you suspected his political career was over, *so I guess you wanted to bring up such matters.
> 
> I'm confident he will both win the seat AND recover from his illness.
> *


Actually I didn't. Fox did.

I was simply addressing him.

It wasn't a political statement but purely what I suspect based on what we "know". 

Your statement was completely political by talking about that he is still running for councillor.

You may be "confident", I am not, having lost many family and friends to cancer and other diseases.

So first he needs to get better, a long hard climb by the sounds of it.


----------



## Macfury

screature said:


> Actually I didn't. Fox did.


You did.



screature said:


> I suspect that his political career is over....


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> You did.





Fox said:


> *I say that I totally don't like his politics *BUT I wish him a full recovery.


No Fox did. I was talking to him not to you so get off your figginin' high horse.

God damn sometimes it seems like you aren't happy unless you are picking a fight with someone.


----------



## Macfury

screature, you are in one of your moods again. There's no sense talking to you when you are like this.


----------



## screature

Macfury said:


> screature, you are in one of your moods again. There's no sense talking to you when you are like this.


Parliament is sitting again, so yes I am grumpy. I apologize.

God, I need to find a different place to work...


----------



## macintosh doctor

screature said:


> Parliament is sitting again, so yes I am grumpy. I apologize.
> 
> God, I need to find a different place to work...


i guess if they aren't working 6 months of the year - they sitting down the other 6 LOL..
sorry had too.. 
i wish I had your job.


----------



## screature

macintosh doctor said:


> i guess if they aren't working 6 months of the year - they sitting down the other 6 LOL..
> sorry had too..
> * i wish I had your job*.


See that is a statement of ignorance... You simply have no idea. 

First, MPs come about as close as anyone I know to working 24/7/365.

Second, how presumptuous of you to think that you have the skill set to do my job (when you don't know what it is) and third, even if you had, unless you are sucker for punishment you wouldn't want my job.

You have no clue what my job is so how could you even begin to make such a statement?

Out of ignorance I guess.

I know you put the  at the end but it grows tiresome... other people thinking you have it easy because you work on the Hill.

It couldn't be further from the truth.


----------



## macintosh doctor

screature said:


> See that is a statement of ignorance... You simply have no idea.
> 
> First, MPs come about as close as anyone I know to working 24/7/365.
> 
> Second, how presumptuous of you to think that you have the skill set to do my job (when you don't know what it is) and third, even if you had, unless you are sucker for punishment you wouldn't want my job.
> 
> You have no clue what my job is so how could you even begin to make such a statement?
> 
> Out of ignorance I guess.
> 
> I know you put the  at the end but it grows tiresome... other people thinking you have it easy because you work on the Hill.
> 
> It couldn't be further from the truth.


Don't worry, stay 4 years and you will have the a pension that will take care of you..


----------



## screature

macintosh doctor said:


> Don't worry, stay 4 years and you will have the a pension that will take care of you..


I am not an MP, I simply work for Parliament, my pension plan is the same as every other PSAC union member except I am not a member of PSAC so I don't have their job protection. 

So no that is wrong and even then if I were an MP I would have to be an MP for 6 years before I could receive a pension, i.e. being elected at least twice, possibly more times in a minority government situation, a la when the Conservatives formed government in 2006.

If you were first elected in 2006 as an MP you would have to be elected 3 times to receive a pension and even then ones pension is still prorated depending on the number of years of service.

Not to mention under this government MPs contributions have been moved to a 50-50 contribution, something no other government did before them. 

Like I said, you simply have no idea, or you are at the very least you are seemingly willing to spread falsehoods (if you do have an idea how things work). But thus far you have not displayed an understanding of how things work.


----------



## macintosh doctor

screature said:


> I am not an MP, I simply work for Parliament, my pension plan is the same as every other PSAC union member except I am not a member of PSAC so I don't have their job protection.
> 
> So no that is wrong and even then if I were an MP I would have to be an MP for 6 years before I could receive a pension, i.e. being elected at least twice, possibly more times in a minority government situation, a la when the Conservatives formed government in 2006.
> 
> If you were first elected in 2006 as an MP you would have to be elected 3 times to receive a pension and even then ones pension is still prorated depending on the number of years of service.
> 
> Not to mention under this government MPs contributions have been moved to a 50-50 contribution, something no other government did before them.
> 
> Like I said, you simply have no idea, or you are at the very least you are seemingly willing to spread falsehoods (if you do have an idea how things work). But thus far you have not displayed an understanding of how things work.


You do seem wound up LOL 
but thank you for pointing it.. now I don't have to watch discovery channel - How its Made


----------



## screature

macintosh doctor said:


> *You do seem wound up* LOL
> but thank you for pointing it.. now I don't have to watch discovery channel - How its Made


What do you expect when falsehoods are made about you and your credibility? Just roll over and play dead?


----------

