# Mexico flu



## arminia (Jan 27, 2005)

BBC NEWS | Have Your Say | Mexico flu: Your experiences


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## arminia (Jan 27, 2005)

*Swine flu in Canada*

CTV Winnipeg- 4 confirmed swine flu cases in N.S., 2 more in B.C. - CTV News, Shows and Sports -- Canadian Television


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

And just when we were busy slaughtering all those pesky birds, the pigs move in and sideswipe us!


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## 401402 (Apr 12, 2009)

heard them detain a guy at YVR airport last night due to bad coughing and other people ..........think they let them go after quarintine of a few hours....man


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

The tinfoil hat types are convinced that this is a genetically engineered variety of flu. 

The fact that Al Gore and good old Rummy have big time investments in Tamiflu could lend just a bit of credence to the theory. Rummy in particular would look at a few million deaths as just a side benefit.beejacon


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Chicken Little and the gang are hard at work promoting a pandemic.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

SINC said:


> Chicken Little and the gang are hard at work promoting a pandemic.


SINC, I agree with you on this one.

I've been reading both the NY Times and The Toronto Star, and The Star is blowing it hugely out of proportion to both the NY Times and the WHO. For example, there were only 22 confirmed deaths, and 86 believed deaths. The Toronto Star says that there were 86 confirmed deaths.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

More people probably dies of common colds during the same period.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

A pandemic has nothing to do with the number of deaths...



> Pandemic: An epidemic (a sudden outbreak) that becomes very widespread and affects a whole region, a continent, or the world.


There could be zero deaths and it's still a pandemic.

Some 50,000 die every year of influenza anyways.

The risk they are guarding against is a mutuation.

Swine flu is normally not transmitted between humans so this has already mutated once and is composed of human, bird and swine flu and so far does not have a high death rate after infection - even in Mexico where there may be complicating factors.
SARs was 20% death rate 
H51 bird flu kills 60% but has almost zero spread.

The wider the spread - the greater risk of mutation into a deadlier form - that's the goal is to halt the spread so reduce the risk of mutation to a deadlier version.
There is no over- reaction - WHO has not raised the classification above Phase 3.
This flu is not prevented by the current flu shot.
Tamiflu does work if taken within an early period.

A real concern is that this varient does kill healthy young adults in Mexico which is what the 1918 flu did so a mutation to a more virulent form poses risk of that...the wider the exposure the greater the risk of that mutation occurring particularly in SE Asian where pocket of H51 are still present..

The positive aspect is that a mild pandemic provides an immunity pool.....that may help against a more virulent form down the road.

Your knee-jerk anti-science nonsense gets wearisome.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

eMacMan said:


> The tinfoil hat types are convinced that this is a genetically engineered variety of flu.
> 
> The fact that Al Gore and good old Rummy have big time investments in Tamiflu could lend just a bit of credence to the theory. Rummy in particular would look at a few million deaths as just a side benefit.beejacon


If you can't make your money with oil you've got to do something!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> A pandemic has nothing to do with the number of deaths...
> 
> Your knee-jerk anti-science nonsense gets wearisome.


And your assumptions get just as tiresome. The comment was directed at the media and their overblown and inaccurate coverage of the situation. (See Adrian.'s post.)

You might want to try actually reading before typing.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

SINC, with that strong wind blowing from Mississuga, we'll have to see what sort of plague is spreading now.

I would hope to see an apology but that isn't something we've come to expect.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

we know someone who is in a Halifax hospital under surveillance - because he returned from Mexico..

all this makes me laugh..

When Toronto, was going through SARS.. they shut us down hard..
people in the US are sick and Mexico is out of control.. Not even a Travel advisory... go figure - WHO, plus USA/Mexico has favoritism going on.. You know if this was at all a Canadian start.. they would of built walls around Canada again.

during the SARS outbreak.. when i was on vacation, with wife; people found out we were from TO, they would get up and move.. what a joke..  - so I guess I should stop eating from TACO bell


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Macdoc,

I agree, it is a very disturbing virus in terms of mutation. It is comforting to see the rapid mobilization of the army in mexico. I think the world learned from SARS. 

My parents are there right now, and I have plans to go visit them soon so I hope it cools down in the next month.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> I agree, it is a very disturbing virus in terms of mutation. It is comforting to see the rapid mobilization of the army in mexico. I think the world learned from SARS.


The world learned that Toronto was extremely lucky that its inadequate preparation and response didn't result in something far worse, that's for sure!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> I agree, it is a very disturbing virus in terms of mutation. It is comforting to see the rapid mobilization of the army in mexico.


The cat is already out of the bag. Too late for the army to do much but keep order.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Macfury said:


> The cat is already out of the bag. Too late for the army to do much but keep order.


What is the army going to do?
LOL
run around and shoot people with the virus? it is not the army they need for that.. they should of used the army for the drug war they are facing not the medical problem.. 

they should have doctors on the street handing out free flu shots instead.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> they should have doctors on the street handing out free flu shots instead.


The wonderful thing about a new virus strain (at least from Rummy's point of view) is that it takes several months to develop the vaccine. In the meantime Gore and Rummy sit around the old mansion watching Tamiflu sales & stock sky rocket, as they sing: "My God How The Money Rolls In"


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

macintosh doctor said:


> What is the army going to do?
> LOL


The army would chiefly be there to quell public unrest, should the panic deepen and take hold. Riot control, if you will. Protection of government offices and leaders.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Protection of government offices and leaders.


Bingo! They're probably too effete to look after themselves.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> What is the army going to do?
> LOL
> run around and shoot people with the virus? it is not the army they need for that.. they should of used the army for the drug war they are facing not the medical problem..
> 
> they should have doctors on the street handing out free flu shots instead.


They are using the army to face the drug war. Nothing will stop the drugs until the Americans stop consuming them. 

As emacman said, there is no vaccine yet, so the army is distributing surgical masks and keeping public areas vacant to avoid spreading the virus. What else can they do until a vaccine becomes available? 

This is just how the earth cleans itself of the biggest problem it has ever faced: people.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> This is just how the earth cleans itself of the biggest problem it has ever faced: people.


This is pure nonsense. The earth doesn't have feelings, emotions--or a plan.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Adrian. said:


> This is just how the earth cleans itself of the biggest problem it has ever faced: people.


I guess it must have learned that it's plan to wipe out the dinosaurs was a little over the top?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

This is the core of the concern....a mild first wave followed by a killer....



> n the 1918–1919 pandemic, a first or spring wave began in March 1918 and spread unevenly through the United States, Europe, and possibly Asia over the next 6 months (Figure 1).* Illness rates were high, but death rates in most locales were not appreciably above normal. *
> 
> A second or fall wave spread globally from September to November 1918 and was highly fatal. In many nations, a third wave occurred in early 1919 (21). Clinical similarities led contemporary observers to conclude initially that they were observing the same disease in the successive waves. The milder forms of illness in all 3 waves were identical and typical of influenza seen in the 1889 pandemic and in prior interpandemic years.
> 
> ...


an informative read 
1918 Influenza Pandemic | CDC EID


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> This is pure nonsense. The earth doesn't have feelings, emotions--or a plan.


Speaking of nonsense... the earth doesn't require emotions, or a plan.

It simply reacts naturally to man's actions, and if man is stupid enough to say 'nothing we do will result in consequences', well, whether the earth has feelings, is irrelevant.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

So far in Mexico (as of the morning papers) there have been 103 deaths. Schools are shut down everywhere. Here in Zacatecas, all public events are called off, schools are closed, etc. Coming back from my girlfriends' place this morning, I'd say 1 in 10 people on the street are wearing surgical masks).


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Speaking of nonsense... the earth doesn't require emotions, or a plan.
> 
> It simply reacts naturally to man's actions, and if man is stupid enough to say 'nothing we do will result in consequences', well, whether the earth has feelings, is irrelevant.


Read the post. The Swine Flu is not "the Earth cleaning itself." It is not targeting humans deliberately.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Crap! ...*and now Mexico City was just hit by an earthquake*... awaiting details... (12-noon Mexico Time, Monday)

*Update 1:* Preliminary report - centered in the state of Guerrero (where Acapulco is). Richter 5.6.

*Update 2: * Richter 6.0


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Sheeesh! Stay safe CubaMark and Adrian's Parents! !


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## DS (Oct 7, 2004)

Don't forget me!

I'm living in Querétaro, and apparently schools and stuff are being shut down here as well. We went out to get a bite to eat last night and it was eerily quiet, we were the only ones in the restaurant when we got there. Only one other person showed up, and they were wearing a surgical mask.


Dun dun dun. Didn't feel any of the earthquake here though, mind you I just woke up about 5 minutes ago to a ringing phone!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

KC4 said:


> Sheeesh! Stay safe CubaMark and Adrian's Parents! !


+1

and DS!


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

DS said:


> Don't forget me!
> 
> I'm living in Querétaro, and apparently schools and stuff are being shut down here as well. We went out to get a bite to eat last night and it was eerily quiet, we were the only ones in the restaurant when we got there. Only one other person showed up, and they were wearing a surgical mask.
> 
> ...


That's where my parents live!

My dad said they are not allowing people into to any of the Commercial Mexicanas without masks on and are requiring people to apply sterilising fluid to their hands before entering.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

From UPI.com

MEXICO CITY, April 27 (UPI) -- An earthquake rattled central Mexico Monday causing buildings in the capital, Mexico City, to sway, local officials said.
The quake registered 6 on the Richter Scale and was centered some 130 miles southwest of the capital, the U.S. Geological Survey reported.

There were no immediate reports of deaths or injuries, or of damage to buildings.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> The World Health Organization raised its global pandemic alert level from three to four on Monday, meaning the global health body feels the virus causing the swine flu outbreak can easily transmit between people.
> 
> Dr. Keiji Fukuda, the WHO’s assistant director general, confirmed the move during a briefing from Geneva.
> 
> Level four "indicates a significant increase in risk of a pandemic but does not necessarily mean that a pandemic is a forgone conclusion," says the WHO website, which details the six-level alert system


WHO boosts pandemic alert level to 4


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Read the post. The Swine Flu is not "the Earth cleaning itself." It is not targeting humans deliberately.


You said all of that in your post?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Follow the thread, kiddo.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Follow the thread, kiddo.


which part. The part where you are pretty sure the earth doesn't have an evil plan, or that you're dad-de-o.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

groovetube said:


> which part. The part where you are pretty sure the earth doesn't have an evil plan, or that you're dad-de-o.


Don't bother, it really doesn't go anywhere.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

This part:



Adrian. said:


> As emacman said, there is no vaccine yet, so the army is distributing surgical masks and keeping public areas vacant to avoid spreading the virus. What else can they do until a vaccine becomes available?
> 
> *This is just how the earth cleans itself of the biggest problem it has ever faced: people.*


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

MacDoc said:


> WHO boosts pandemic alert level to 4


Where can I get a batch of Tamilflu... if it even works? It's just a matter of time before it spreads across the world by air travel. :yikes:


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

zlinger said:


> Where can I get a batch of Tamilflu... if it even works? It's just a matter of time before it spreads across the world by air travel. :yikes:


CBC Radio said this morning that most stores have no more tamilflu. 1) because people have bought it all up; 2) apparently when we hit level four, governments get first priority on all production. So the Canadian government is buying it all from Roche AG. 

This is all very frightening. Apparently, if we move to level 5, then we are pretty much guaranteed a level 6. Level 6 is full out pandemic. 

I wonder if they would ground all air travel. I can see how there are advisories to Mexico and the US, but the virus has already spread to other countries. There has to be at least a few hundred cases in Toronto alone by now.

I was listening to a guy on CBC talk about why Mexico appears to have a much higher death rate ratio than other countries with the flu, and the man, who chiefs a disease and virus containment firm, said it is probably because other governments don't want to induce panic and also because panic has already hit Mexico. 

For example, my girlfriend's sister is in the hospital in Ottawa after she returned from San Francisco and she clearly has swine flu (vomiting, diarrhoea, fever, coughing, sore throat etc.). However, they won't diagnose her with the swine flu. So, there are definitely more than six cases in Canada, it is just a matter of documenting it. 

Your thoughts?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that this flu is a cross between Swine, Avian and Human flu types, yet the "experts" claim it to be a natural mutation. Especially as they were screaming potential pandemic before it had really hit the ground. 

Personally I suspect nature was helped along by people in white coats. Greed can be very adept at over-riding ones conscience. Notice how Tamiflu is already being reserved for the politicos and their big banker puppeteers? This before we even know how deadly or weak this particular virus is.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> For example, my girlfriend's sister is in the hospital in Ottawa after she returned from San Francisco and she clearly has swine flu (vomiting, diarrhoea, fever, coughing, sore throat etc.). However, they won't diagnose her with the swine flu. So, there are definitely more than six cases in Canada, it is just a matter of documenting it.
> 
> Your thoughts?


My thought is that your girlfriend's sister may have some other kind of flu, that's not necessarily swine flu.

I came back from Peru with many of the same symptoms. I don't have swine flu. I have remnants of traveller's diarrhea that started earlier in my trip and I have a cold from getting soaked through a few times on the Inca trail. In any case, it's mostly better now, no one around me seems to be getting sick with anything...

Sorry, I don't buy into conspiracies easily.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> CBC Radio said this morning that most stores have no more tamilflu. 1) because people have bought it all up; 2) apparently when we hit level four, governments get first priority on all production. So the Canadian government is buying it all from Roche AG.
> 
> This is all very frightening. Apparently, if we move to level 5, then we are pretty much guaranteed a level 6. Level 6 is full out pandemic.
> 
> ...


Breathe. Don't panic. Repeat.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

mrjimmy said:


> Breathe. Don't panic. Repeat.


Thanks!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Influenzas are never pretty, but most of them don't just pick off otherwise healthy people. To me, the SARS crisis was encouraging because it showed me that even a severe illness could run its course in a fairly short time despite massive incompetence in attempting to contain it. Individual common sense will go a long way toward dealing with this.

In the U.S., about 10 per cent of Americans have TAMIFLU on hand--all the time, just in case. There's never enough to go around in an emergency because it's produced to meet the demand of individuals who want to keep it on hand, not the entire population.


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## nick24 (Jul 11, 2006)

A storm in a tea cup? Personally, I think it is.

From the Q&A in the Globe and Mail > globeandmail.com: This really has nothing to do with pigs any more

"Despite all the media attention on swine flu, the run-of-the-mill seasonal flu is still a much greater threat to your health: Annually, influenza kills about 4,000 Canadians and leads to the hospitalization of another 20,000. So far, six Canadians have been confirmed to have swine flu, and all of the cases have been mild."


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's not this version that is worrisome....if it rolls out worldwide it's what it might transform to that is of concern.

The 1918 first wave was very mild and this version is related. So far I think response is appropriate and if it can be contained ( unlikely) then there is less risk of a nasty twist.

If it gets out in SE Asia that's a witches cauldron of strains already.

Decent assessment
TheStar.com | Opinion | Prudent response over swine flu


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## Chuck (Oct 17, 2003)

It was the next year that it became serious.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

eMacMan said:


> I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that this flu is a cross between Swine, Avian and Human flu types, yet the "experts" claim it to be a natural mutation. Especially as they were screaming potential pandemic before it had really hit the ground.
> 
> Personally I suspect nature was helped along by people in white coats. Greed can be very adept at over-riding ones conscience. Notice how Tamiflu is already being reserved for the politicos and their big banker puppeteers? This before we even know how deadly or weak this particular virus is.


Bring out your conspiracy theorists, bring out your conspiracy theorists......

Viruses of the same general family constantly recombine. They have in-built error-prone machinery to replicate their DNA (or RNA in the case of retroviruses). They have hyper-variable regions that spit out constant variations of peptides so that our immune systems can never quite catch up. They are genetically very similar and so when a cell is infected with two viruses, the genes swap and generate natural hybrids. They jump between species (accelerated by intensive human farming practices). This is nature. Viruses didn't pop up when we did. As for it being an escaped experiment, you have watched too many X-files and given scientists too much credit. Nature runs billions of experiments every minute.

This stuff isn't rocket science. Banning pork imports? Restricting travel when 12 million people have been exposed for over a month? This is stupidity. As for the differential in the mortality rates between Mexico and elsewhere, this IS something that needs to be investigated. It could be that there are actually 1 million infected people in Mexico and the people who have died are reflective of a low death rate similar to regular flu (4,000 Canadians die every year from flu, where is the panic?). Or there may be contributary factors such as co-infections, a substrain that has yet to spread, pollution, diet, ineffective treatment (making things worse), etc.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

This is good



> Decline in cases'
> 
> The number of flu cases under observation in Mexico has reached 1,614. Swine flu was confirmed in 20 of the 152 deaths.
> 
> ...


BBC NEWS | Americas | 'Too late' to contain swine flu

then again


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Two human cases of swine flu have been confirmed in Alberta, the province's chief medical officer of health said Tuesday.

Both individuals are male with a mild form of the illness. Neither was hospitalized.

One man from northern Alberta has fully recovered. A second man from Calgary is on the road to recovery."

Alberta confirms 2 cases of swine flu


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc: thanks - that's the graphic of the month, I think.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

that is a pretty funny graphic.. 
what is funnier, that no travel ban has been made or any mention of an earth quack on CNN... how bizarre
These Mexican's have some serious friends in high places.. over 150 dead because of a infectious illness.

What bothers me the most:
that Toronto was so damaged by Sars and the 40 that died.. over 150 dead in Mexico and no travel ban..
odd i would say.. Toronto was pushed into a recession, Theatre business was devastated and shut down, still yet to recover. Not going to even mention the tourism in TO is still recovering..

It is amazing how things operate and the double standards that occurs.

I hope that they do find a cure for this flu soon. But i guess i will never understand politics.

in the words of David Miller " if you have to sneeze, use your sleeve" LOL
good luck in China Town with that one. 
I used to work Downtown Toronto - China town, no one ever covered up.. also most of them held a parking metre with one hand and the other plugged one nostril and blew the contents of the other spraying every where..


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

I did hear they are working on developing a vaccine, so surely if this makes a "come back" next winter we should be ready if it follows the 1918 pattern as mentioned... 

I've never gotten a flu shot and have survived quite nicely, but it this instance I believe I would do so. I hope to think that our medical knowledge and technology has advanced enough to avoid another 1918 disaster.


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## iLabmAn (Jan 1, 2003)

http://imgur.com/27K39.jpg


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Updated info

Swine flu: What you need to know - health - 26 April 2009 - New Scientist


•••


Not a 15 minutes of fame one would seek...












> From Édgar, 5, Coughs Heard Round the World


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/world/americas/29mexico.html?_r=1&ref=global-home


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

WHO has just raised the pandemic alert to Level 5 (Level 6 is full-blown Pandemic).

Hmmm.... looks like I may need to change some flight plans... crap!


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> Hmmm.... looks like I may need to change some flight plans... crap!


do not worry - no travel ban has been issued yet.
only advisory....
now if this happened in Toronto, it would of been a travel ban ages ago...
XX)

i heard they are still fishing out all Canadians.. so you should be fine..
also Blue Cross said they are still covering people with Mexican Swine flu..
other insurances said good luck


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Why is this thread topic "Mexico flu"? Why not just "Swine flu"?


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

dona83 said:


> Why is this thread topic "Mexico flu"? Why not just "Swine flu"?


Agreed. It just happened to happen in Mexico.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

H1N1 is disparaging to neither Mexicans nor pigs.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> H1N1 is disparaging to neither Mexicans nor pigs.


Believe it or not, some pork producers have asked the government to stop calling it swine flu--as though we might be dissuaded from buying "swine chops" at the grocer.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

I think creating global hysteria around pigs is ridiculous considering the the fact that you don't catch H1N1 fro the pork chops in Loblaws. I say drop the swine and spare not only an industry, but thousands upon thousands of innocent pigs. At least if it's bacon, they've died for a reason.

Next thing you know they'll take Babe off the shelf in your local video store and erase Pig Pen from all the old Charlie Brown cartoons!


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

dona83 said:


> Why is this thread topic "Mexico flu"? Why not just "Swine flu"?


um, did it not start in Mexico? Yes it did - so therefore it is properly titled...
when it is a bird flu they called it Asian Bird flu - because it started there...

maybe they should call it Mexican Swine Flu - just to be correct...

I think the biggest joke was the mayor of mexico city saying it was Asian.. LOL now that is a joke - he is just trying to save the tourism and drug trade from going under :lmao:


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> he is just trying to save the tourism and drug trade from going under :lmao:


Hey! Those drugs are carefully inspected for infectious organisms prior to export!


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Macfury said:


> Hey! Those drugs are carefully inspected for infectious organisms prior to export!


you are right.. boiling it in a spoon kills off any viruses..


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

macintosh doctor said:


> um, did it not start in Mexico? Yes it did - so therefore it is properly titled...


Exactly! Just like the Norwalk virus. It sucks, but at least your name isn't Lou Gehrig.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I agree. Everyone now knows it as the Mexican flu, so trying to rechristen it for PR purposes at this late stage is counterproductive to public safety,


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Excellent summary of the situation from a biological perspective

Understanding the outbreak: an influenza biology primer - Ars Technica


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Macfury said:


> I agree. Everyone now knows it as the Mexican flu, so trying to rechristen it for PR purposes at this late stage is counterproductive to public safety,


The biggest irony is that the pig farm that started all this which is 4 miles from Mexico City... is AMERICAN - ah ha ha ha... 

of course they did tests ( the american company ) they came up negative.. wow - i am not surprised... maybe a third party non related company should have done the tests...


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> The biggest irony is that the pig farm that started all this which is 4 miles from Mexico City... is AMERICAN - ah ha ha ha...
> 
> of course they did tests ( the american company ) they came up negative.. wow - i am not surprised... maybe a third party non related company should have done the tests...


Some are saying, I saw in an NY Times article a few days ago, that the pigs may have come from California.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sitting tight at Level 5

No evidence to raise pandemic flu alert level to phase six: WHO + Latest snapshot of swine flu crisis

Then again H5N1

NewsDaily: Egyptian woman dies of bird flu, 3rd fatality in a week


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Excellent summary of the situation from a biological perspective
> 
> Understanding the outbreak: an influenza biology primer - Ars Technica


So what about the cases of Swine Flu that originated in Canada/US, the last one being in 1988? Let's call it the Canadian Flu.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Those are some serious numbers posted on that website..
mind blowing.. 

Mexican Swine Flu killed: 150 died so far... that was quick... 
vs.
SARS killed :774 died. By late July 2003 ( that is after one year battling SARS)


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> Those are some serious numbers posted on that website..
> mind blowing..
> 
> Mexican Swine Flu killed: 150 died so far... that was quick...
> ...


There's some questions being raised about those numbers.... seems like some evidence is coming in to show that the death toll from swine flu in Mexico is lower than first believed.

Flu death toll in Mexico could be lower than first thought


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Macfury said:


> More people probably dies of common colds during the same period.


More people die hideous deaths simply because our hospitals are filthy, and no one can actually do a proper job cleaning them because of Union grievances, and management that spends more time thinking about what they are going to eat at their free luncheon rather than doing some actual management style work.

But people are entirely fixated on swine flu, or SARS or whatever comes along - and could care less if some old lady dies because the floors in the hospitals haven't been washed in a decade, and all of the equipment has a think crust of disease and contagion stuck to it...


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> More people die hideous deaths simply because our hospitals are filthy, and no one can actually do a proper job cleaning them because of Union grievances, and management that spends more time thinking about what they are going to eat at their free luncheon rather than doing some actual management style work.
> 
> But people are entirely fixated on swine flu, or SARS or whatever comes along - and could care less if some old lady dies because the floors in the hospitals haven't been washed in a decade, and all of the equipment has a think crust of disease and contagion stuck to it...


You are such a bitter person. I love you.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Adrian. said:


> You are such a bitter person. I love you.


:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Thank you!

Of course, it is the absolute truth. They had that case with the sick woman in Mexico that no hospital in the GTA would take in, and while the press was making it sound like the hospitals didn't want to end up with a flu carrier - we all know the truth, that the hospitals would look so bad if this woman ended up there, and died of the filth rather than the flu.

I might not be so jaded about hospitals if I hadn't seen how bad they are run up close. Like the night we got to spend there because a friend's girlfriend was peeing blood, but the nurses at the desk were far busier reading bridal magazines, and the doctors were busier trying to score with the nurses. Or the "cleaning" they were giving the beds on colonoscopy day, when I was waiting for my girlfriend to get out of surgery. Yeah, such a thorough cleaning, the dude stood around for twenty minutes talking to his bud about pirating some porn, then used a dirty rag and a bottle of water to swish the colonoscopy dirt around the bed, so it was ready for the next person. And on and on, the examples are manifold, just like the dysfunction that has settled into our publically run institutions.

The press is having a heyday, it's like some kind of revanche against the warm weather in Mexico. And it is all about doing stupid things, like the endless debate about renaming the disease so as not to affect the American pork industry, or getting people addicted to Tami-flu, rather than getting on with the job of informing people. It's all about going crazy, and my point is, if this flu actually comes from pigs, and is transmitted by pigs - then why do they have it in Israel, where no one has pigs or eats pigs?

It's the flu, the world has to get over it and stop trying to turn it into some cash grabbing industry, like all of the other diseases that have been converted into cash cows that will never see a "cure" until the cash runs out.

Of course, the Koreans have glowing beagles now, so that's something! beejacon


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## DS (Oct 7, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> the nurses at the desk were far busier reading bridal magazines, and the doctors were busier trying to score with the nurses.



:lmao:


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

This particular flu strain is media borne.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> The biggest irony is that the pig farm that started all this which is 4 miles from Mexico City... is AMERICAN - ah ha ha ha...
> 
> of course they did tests ( the american company ) they came up negative.. wow - i am not surprised... maybe a third party non related company should have done the tests...


Anybody notice that no cases of the H1N1 flu have shown up so far in any of the middle eastern countries the USA is at war with?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Which means....?


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Max said:


> Which means....?


It's a conspiracy to destabilize the enemies of democracy...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Which means....?


That if you live in Iraq or Iran, Mexico is not your favourite holiday destination--who wants to see more hot weather and date palms?


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

fjnmusic said:


> Anybody notice that no cases of the H1N1 flu have shown up so far in any of the middle eastern countries the USA is at war with?


do not take it there. 
Every one knows Muslims do not eat pork. 
So leave it at that. 
Do not hi jack the thread with non sence.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

macintosh doctor said:


> do not take it there.
> Every one knows Muslims do not eat pork.
> So leave it at that.
> Do not hi jack the thread with non sence.


Couple of observations:

1. It has been widely publicized that one cannot catch the virus by eating pork.

2. That makes the fjnmusic's observation legitimate and certainly not "nonsense".


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Perhaps, Sinc. But what threw me off is the fact that fjn referred to Middle Eastern countries the US is at war with. Please illuminate a link between war and pork consumption - I'm a little slow today. Even better would be fjn emerging and expanding on things a bit.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ah, I now see the your point Max. That didn't enter my mind, but the insinuation is indeed there. Mea culpa.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Please illuminate a link between war and pork consumption...


The secret documents regarding this link were lost in the collapse of WTC-7.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

I think there a LOT more countries (other than those that are at war with the US) that are not (yet) home to any cases of H1N1.
Map: Swine flu cases worldwide - Swine flu - MSNBC.com


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

four good articles

Swine Flu: The predictable pandemic? - New Scientist


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

SINC said:


> Couple of observations:
> 
> 1. It has been widely publicized that one cannot catch the virus by eating pork.
> 
> 2. That makes the fjnmusic's observation legitimate and certainly not "nonsense".


exactly my point... so why we even discuss or hi jack the thread with nonsense..
lets keep this topic/thread on track... and clean with out any religious or nationality issues..

other than it is a Mexican Flu ( source of origin )  ( removed swine - hence they found it did not come from that, so it safe to go back to petting and kissing back bacon.  )


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
First, it isn't a Pandemic because only a handful of people have it. Pandemics are like millions of people get it, and at least tens of thousands die of it. This is like a thousand people have it, and a handful actually die of it, while even more have it and die of getting soem disease caused by filth in unclean medical facilities.

The doomers have been waiting a century for another "Spanish Flu". However, we actually know what causes the Flu these days - whereas back then, they had no idea what a virus was, never saw a virus, and had no idea what DNA was. The only reason why this stuff spreads these days is because of the filthy environments. We have many cases of airplanes which distribute some of the most disgusting diseases because the "recession" caused "cuts to service" which forced the people that actually clean the planes into the unemployment lines, so that CEOs can cash in large on bonuses. We have the same thing with anything else that is public access: filthy hospitals filled to the brim with germs and contagion where some CEO is scoring a huge half million a year while firing the janitors, and the same with buses, trains, etc.

As well, we now know that airplanes are loading up with low quality water, quite often infested with E Coli, because instead of investing in proper filtering and processing in third world airports, it's all about pumping in some Monteczuma's Revenge for people to drink. The perfect drink for someone dehydrated with flu.

If this is a "pandemic", it's because we caused it by not enforcing the regulations, and our neglect to insist on the fundamental right to clean water for all of the people in the world - even though we insist that all countries supply oil to the United States at the lowest possible cost.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> As well, we now know that airplanes are loading up with low quality water, quite often infested with E Coli, because instead of investing in proper filtering and processing in third world airports, it's all about pumping in some Monteczuma's Revenge for people to drink. The perfect drink for someone dehydrated with flu.


Evan, 

That is a pretty ignorant statement to make. The Aeroport in Mexico City is actually quite a nice one. Better than many in Canada, to be sure.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

EvanPitts said:


> ^^^
> First, it isn't a Pandemic because only a handful of people have it. Pandemics are like millions of people get it, and at least tens of thousands die of it. This is like a thousand people have it, and a handful actually die of it, while even more have it and die of getting soem disease caused by filth in unclean medical facilities.
> 
> The doomers have been waiting a century for another "Spanish Flu". However, we actually know what causes the Flu these days - whereas back then, they had no idea what a virus was, never saw a virus, and had no idea what DNA was. The only reason why this stuff spreads these days is because of the filthy environments. We have many cases of airplanes which distribute some of the most disgusting diseases because the "recession" caused "cuts to service" which forced the people that actually clean the planes into the unemployment lines, so that CEOs can cash in large on bonuses. We have the same thing with anything else that is public access: filthy hospitals filled to the brim with germs and contagion where some CEO is scoring a huge half million a year while firing the janitors, and the same with buses, trains, etc.
> ...


Your definition of a pandemic is actually incorrect. No-one has to die in order for a disease outbreak to be considered a pandemic. It also doesn't have to be wide-spread. 

*Definition:*

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), a pandemic can start when three conditions have been met:[1]

1. Emergence of a disease new to a population.
2. Agents infect humans, causing serious illness.
3. Agents spread easily and sustainably among humans.

A disease or condition is not a pandemic merely because it is widespread or kills many people; it must also be infectious. For instance, cancer is responsible for many deaths but is not considered a pandemic, because the disease is not infectious or contagious.


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## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Macfury said:


> I agree. Everyone now knows it as the Mexican flu, so trying to rechristen it for PR purposes at this late stage is counterproductive to public safety,


Really? Outside of this thread, I'd never seen/read/heard anyone call it "Mexican Flu". I always heard H1N1 on NPR, and Swine everywhere else.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bsenka said:


> Really? Outside of this thread, I'd never seen/read/heard anyone call it "Mexican Flu". I always heard H1N1 on NPR, and Swine everywhere else.


I've seen all of those scanning the news headlines.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Nassssty - what might have been....and if it hooks up with H5 might still be sometime in the future..

Capturing a Killer Flu Virus: Scientific American


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> I've seen all of those scanning the news headlines.


"51 *H1N1 flu* infections confirmed in Canada" - ctv

"WHO says 'no doubt' *swine flu* vaccine likely within months" -globe and mail

"*Swine flu* sickens 141 in U.S. | Where is it now?" - CNN

"About 300 people at a Hong Kong hotel are placed under quarantine after a guest tests positive for *swine flu*." - BBC

"Asia Reports First Case of *Swine Flu*, in Hong Kong" - NY Times

"Canada *swine flu* total rises to 51" - National Post


Current top headlines. No mention anywhere, of the, 'Mexican flu'.

Must be them news sources that tell you climate change ain't being real.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Associated Press:


> Pork producers are trying to get people to stop calling the disease swine flu, and Obama notably referred to it Wednesday only by its scientific name, H1N1. U.N. animal health expert Juan Lubroth noted some scientists say "*Mexican flu*" would be more accurate, a suggestion already inflaming passions in Mexico.


CBS News:


> Also on Wednesday, the World Health Organization raised its alert level for swine flu -- also being called *Mexican Flu* or H1N1 flu -- one level on fears that a global pandemic is imminent.


Science Insider:


> There’s even some debate about whether to call the outbreak “swine flu” or not, with WHO and others renaming it the less catchy "H1N1 virus," and some calling it the “*Mexican flu*.”


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Associated Press:
> 
> 
> CBS News:
> ...


uuuuh, your references still refer to it primarily as swine flu.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I have heard it referred to by all of those names--as I said. You're the one who seems fixated on which name is currently favoured.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

The media has been beating the crap out of Mexico's reputation and so have the Canadian and American governments to try and curb travellers from going and to spend their money locally. It is an old trick. Anyone remember the famous "Truman Travel Agencies" where there would be posters of crashing planes everywhere. 

This naming it the "Mexican Flu" is only a continuation of this trend. Why didn't they call it, "The American Swine Flu" considering that they were American pigs owned by an American company and imported from the US to the ranch in Mexico? 

It is just politics.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> I have heard it referred to by all of those names--as I said. You're the one who seems fixated on which name is currently favoured.


I must have missed something when I read you asserting that every knows it as the mexican flu, rather then the other names swine flu or H1N1, so why bother rebranding it.

When everyone, refers to it as the swine flu. But of course you'll try arguing that even though any half wit with an internet connection can see it.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> When everyone, refers to it as the swine flu. But of course you'll try arguing that even though any half wit with an internet connection can see it.


Anyone with an internet connection can see it is referred to by all of those names.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Anyone with an internet connection can see it is referred to by all of those names.


Macfury, you sometimes say things, and then forget you said them I think.

"Everyone now knows it as the Mexican flu, so trying to rechristen it for PR purposes at this late stage is counterproductive to public safety,"

Now you've changed your tune to, it's known as several names. Oh. well that's news now isn't it.

No, everyone knows it as the swine flu. Every news source refers to it primarily, as swine flu. They are trying to rechristen it as the mexican flu. So far, it hasn't taken very well.

Now, this is really too minor a point to spend going into one of your usual merry go rounds, so I think we can just leave it at that.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sorry, groove. At the time it _was_ being called Mexican flu. I think we can leave it at that.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Good lord. Gents, can we move on from the picayune squabble-fest?

Thanks.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Sorry, groove. At the time it _was_ being called Mexican flu. I think we can leave it at that.


No it wasn't. A few countries just complained that swine was offensive, and asked that it be renamed mexican flu. It has always been referred to as swine flu, or sometimes H1N1.

So starts your stupid merry go round.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Max said:


> Good lord. Gents, can we move on from the picayune squabble-fest?
> 
> Thanks.


Now Max, you know how important it is assert the sky is brown.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groove, your interest in this is getting a tad unhealthy and I don't think anyone is really enjoying the amount of screen real estate being taken up here. I defer to public sentiment at this point.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

takes 2 to tango my friend.

Yes public sentiment is just fine.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

And now comes new evidence that this virus may have come from California...


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Adrian. said:


> The media has been beating the crap out of Mexico's reputation and so have the Canadian and American governments to try and curb travellers from going and to spend their money locally. It is an old trick. Anyone remember the famous "Truman Travel Agencies" where there would be posters of crashing planes everywhere.
> 
> This naming it the "Mexican Flu" is only a continuation of this trend. Why didn't they call it, "The American Swine Flu" considering that they were American pigs owned by an American company and imported from the US to the ranch in Mexico?
> 
> It is just politics.


if what you say is true.. then this is pay back for the many Canadians that were murdered in mexico just because.. while we are at it, why not add the pay back for the unfair treatment Toronto received during SARS..

hopefully Mexico will surviving this economic downturn from all the money they made on drugs and tourism..


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

If you're worried that you may have this flu, you can check here.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Thanks, gw. I can now rest easy ................


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

gwillikers said:


> If you're worried that you may have this flu, you can check here.


har


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> if what you say is true.. then this is pay back for the many Canadians that were murdered in mexico just because.. while we are at it, why not add the pay back for the unfair treatment Toronto received during SARS..
> 
> *hopefully Mexico will surviving this economic downturn from all the money they made on drugs and tourism.. :*)


You ignorant **beep**. Mexico has not profited at all from the drug wars. They have been ravaged by an incessant addiction of Americans who sell the drug lords the high tech weapons. 

More Canadians die of violent crimes in Toronto per year than in Mexico. Never mind the United States. 

I demand an apology and an admittance of the ignorance of that comment.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

People historically have resorted to socially ostracizing those who have suffered from diseases like typhoid and leprosy. It will be interesting to see if various countries do the same for those who have a severe case of the H1N1 flu. We shall see.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

The influenza seems to have originated in southern California. If that is the case, why is it first reported in Mexico? Is there some spin going on here?

Swine Influenza A (H1N1) Infection in Two Children --- Southern California, March--April 2009


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Is it no surprise that the US is quick to point the finger. They insist the 9-11 terrorists came through Canada... The 2003 blackout had the US pointing the finger at us... they were quick to stop importing of Canadian beef when we had a single isolated case of BSE in a calf despite the major problems they had.

C'est la vie.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

MannyP Design said:


> Is it no surprise that the US is quick to point the finger. They insist the 9-11 terrorists came through Canada... The 2003 blackout had the US pointing the finger at us... they were quick to stop importing of Canadian beef when we had a single isolated case of BSE in a calf despite the major problems they had.
> 
> C'est la vie.


Very true and don't forget to add the internet piracy.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

macintosh doctor said:


> ...hopefully Mexico will surviving this economic downturn from all the money they made on drugs and tourism..


Time to start attending some sensitivity workshops, and I recommend blocking the FauxNews channel from your TV.

Having spent three years now living in Mexico, I can assure you that Mexico has suffered immensely due to the huge market for drugs in the USA, and the lovely pile of high-tech weaponry that the gringos sell to the drug lords. Confrontations between the Zetas, for example, and the army, federal police, or the woefully unprepared local police are David-and-Goliath type events. The Zetas, originally a section of the military trained by the US (at the Fort Bening "School of the Assassins") to fight the drug lords, took their training and weaponry and decided to get themselves a piece of the action. The Zetas have been known to show up with, among other things, RPGs.

The psychological toll here is perhaps even greater than the (ridiculously high) body count. People talk about the "culture of fear" that led to all sorts of draconian measures being implemented in the USA post-9/11, but they have no idea what fear really means... not until you've had family members kidnapped (one little boy was taken and killed - they injected acid directly into his heart)... or when members of the Zetas, in full uniform, walk into your father's office and try to buy his allegiance under not-so-subtle threats against his family. How the hell can a society function like this?

Experiences like these are part of the reason why I am so perturbed by people telling me how "horrible" life is in Cuba. Whatever legitimate issues people may have with how Cuba operates (and there are few *legitimate* issues, frankly), it has *nothing* on Mexico.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> People historically have resorted to socially ostracizing those who have suffered from diseases like typhoid and leprosy. It will be interesting to see if various countries do the same for those who have a severe case of the H1N1 flu. We shall see.


Dr. G.,

I may be mistaken, but I believe level 6 from the WHO can include quarantining entire regions or countries. I highly doubt that would happen though. The economic ramifications would be likely to cause some form of violent conflict.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> Dr. G.,
> 
> I may be mistaken, but I believe level 6 from the WHO can include quarantining entire regions or countries. I highly doubt that would happen though. The economic ramifications would be likely to cause some form of violent conflict.


I don't think that we are quite at the stage of placing whole areas in quarantine. I feel that this whole situation is getting out of control. Certain ERs in parts of Canada are seeing healthy people coming in to get checked out to see if they might have the H1N1 flu. This is going to clog up the system in ER even moreso that it is today in some large cities. We shall see.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

(BoingBoing.net)


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

:lmao:


----------



## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

then Cuba Mark - if the drug gangs are so influential on the 'poor' public... they can then lend some money to keep the public afloat, during the trying times.

All these gangs/terrorists are full of cash, then they can share the wealth.. run for politics and who knows they might even win (like in Kosovo - known terrorist kills leaders then runs for politics, wins then separates from Serbia - backed by UN/Nato, Ireland, Palestine. )


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Interesting. I just heard from my aunt and uncle who are currently living in Mexico. 

They are making preparations to return to Canada for the time being. Not because of the N1H1 virus, but because the economy is being severely crippled by the response to it and residents are becoming unpredictably irrational. 

Many believe (not my relatives) that the US is about to close it's borders to ANY traffic commercial or otherwise coming from Mexico and are starting to panic. It's the panic that has my relatives rattled, not the rumor of a closing border, not the flu. 

FWIW, one of the prominent local theories going around in my relatives' area is that they believe that:
1) The flu thing is getting blown way out of proportion, 
2) The US is purposely getting everyone alarmed about it to punish Mexico for not complying with the truck unions in the US. Mx has stopped US corn and grain from coming into Mx because the US won't let Mx drivers bring their trucks across to the US and deliver their merchandize. The US unions are saying that they want US drivers only to drive in the US.

I find it hard to believe that much if any of this has much to do with a union dispute...but I would believe that union negotiators would take advantage of it.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

KC4 said:


> I find it hard to believe that much if any of this has much to do with a union dispute...but I would believe that union negotiators would take advantage of it.


Obummah is working a lot of sweetheart deals for the unions these days. Who knows?


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

Wow KC4, this IS getting very serious. 

FYI to the other members here:

Mexico flu outbreak hits businesses big and small - Los Angeles Times


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

KC4 said:


> They are making preparations to return to Canada for the time being. Not because of the N1H1 virus, but because the economy is being severely crippled by the response to it and residents are becoming unpredictably irrational.


That's not dissimilar to what happened during the SARS crisis. I remember visiting old Chinatown in the midst of it to buy some decorations for the house. I have never seen that neighbourhood emptier... nearly every store we went into was empty but for a couple of employees.

What's sadder is that many businesses in New York's Chinatown were adversely affected by people refusing to go into the area for fear of SARS. There wasn't a single case of SARS in New York City.

And as best as I can determine, SARS was far more virulent and deadly than this H1N1/swine flu stuff.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

KC4 said:


> Interesting. I just heard from my aunt and uncle who are currently living in Mexico.
> 
> They are making preparations to return to Canada for the time being. Not because of the N1H1 virus, but because the economy is being severely crippled by the response to it and residents are becoming unpredictably irrational.
> 
> ...


Mexico has been living with the United States pounding on her back for 200 years. Mexico is better positioned than Canada to be neglected by the US. Mexico ever since NAFTA began to go sour about four years ago, started shifting more and more of its business towards Europe and Latin America. Above that, the Latin American multi-lateral bank (ALBA) has both enormous food and capital reserves to sustain the entire sub continent for about one year.

My father's business in Queretaro, Mexico is doing fine. Albeit he is involved in industrial, not commercial. I can see commercial being hit much more acutely. 

Also, KC4 anyone familiar with Mexican culture knows that blowing things way out of proportion and conspiracy theories are in common currency. So this "irrationalism" is perhaps a product of this, or your relatives are simple over-stating reality. 

However, as I said, the people running Mexico, especially now since the PRI was defeated with Fox, have been doing a very prudent job or protecting the country from the whims of the Americans. The clauses in NAFTA have all been ratified through WTO committees, and the WTO is the body responsible for dealing out fines. Though the Americans control much of the WTO, they can't very well go about undermining it. The truck dispute is no more than what the soft wood dumping incidence was here.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

macintosh doctor said:


> then Cuba Mark - if the drug gangs are so influential on the 'poor' public... they can then lend some money to keep the public afloat, during the trying times.


:yikes: Uh.. yeah, that's what people want to do, borrow money from drug lords... 

There are essentially two courses the narcos take down here: (i) some "good works" in the community, building parks for kids, etc., to generate local support by the people even as they go around murdering cops and bureaucrats; (ii) dropping grenades into the middle of public events to sow fear, panic and to demonstrate that the officials are unable to protect the citizenry, undermining government power.

I'm fortunate to live in a part of Mexico where, in my past three years, there have been only (!) three significant confrontations between the narcos and the various law enforcement bodies (and only one in which bullets came close to my home).


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> then Cuba Mark - if the drug gangs are so influential on the 'poor' public... they can then lend some money to keep the public afloat, during the trying times.


Because they are transnational criminals. They have absolutely no connection to any nation or nationality. They are profiting from a game that is destroying two countries and two peoples simultaneously. They don't care about the public.


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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

Adrian. said:


> Also, KC4 anyone familiar with Mexican culture knows that blowing things way out of proportion and conspiracy theories are in common currency. So this "irrationalism" is perhaps a product of this, or your relatives are simple over-stating reality.


Probably a little of both Adrian. My Aunt and Uncle have lived there over ten years - they are well acclimatized to and enjoy the local "telenovela" culture and colorful tale telling. This seems to have gone frighteningly beyond or is different than that. 

They reported than many resident Americans and Canadians have left or are preparing to leave like rats leaving a sinking ship. Their words, not mine.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Empty streets on a city of 20 million seems a bit more than cultural idiosyncrasy


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Round 2?



> *Human-to-swine transmission escalates mutation risk*
> 
> ANDRÉ PICARD
> From Monday's Globe and Mail May 3, 2009 at 9:25 PM EDT
> ...


globeandmail.com: Human-to-swine transmission escalates mutation risk

and



> China banned all imports of Alberta pork yesterday, according to the Canadian Pork Council, and farmers speculate that their major export market, the United States, may follow suit this week. Both countries have expressed concern that the flu strain – originally termed swine flu by health officials because its genetic code shows porcine origins – will contaminate domestic herds.


globeandmail.com: Pork industry in panic as pigs catch the flu

interesting times..




> Flu virus mutations are big concern for H1N1 experts
> Updated Sat. May. 2 2009 11:08 AM ET
> 
> Angela Mulholland, CTV.ca News
> ...


more

CTV.ca | Flu virus mutations are big concern for H1N1 experts

and snip



> Preliminary research suggests people 60 and older may already have some protection against the new swine flu, possibly because of vaccines they've received in the past.
> 
> Dr. Nancy Cox, the head of the influenza division at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control says work being done in the Atlanta labs shows older people have some antibodies that may offer protection against the swine H1N1 virus.
> 
> Cox says her team is seeing higher levels of antibodies against the virus in people starting at about age 50, but the rise is more noticeable in people 60 and older. She says the pattern of disease spread seems to support the idea, because most of the cases are in young people.


or because we've had a variation of this flu....
I can only recall one really bad bout and it was a nightmare as my wife and I both had it and despite being young and fit at the time we literally staggered into the doctors office after a week of trying to deal with it ourselves.
We were very ill and because of our isolation in an old farmhouse not easily accessed likely at more risk than we knew.
I still recall it decades later.....


----------



## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

MacDoc said:


> Empty streets on a city of 20 million seems a bit more than cultural idiosyncrasy


WHO is raising it to level 6... out right pandemic
I have gone to Rona and purchased a pitch fork ( any one show up at our front doors be prepared if you not fedex or purolator to be educated. ).. sharping ends and preparing for public pandaemonium and mayhem.

also buying 4 kits of the Canadian 72 hour home survival kits .. making a safe room with duct tape and plastic sheathing.( should last me 12 days )
hopefully by then i will come out to see the day of light and all will be well.

will fill up cars with gas - so not to give reason for gas stations to charge 1.99/l because of level six.

have I left anything else out? oh yeah - running to bank to cash out $2000 in 10s because the Canadian Government website says in sign of pandaemonium use some bills  LOL


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sounds like a wise plan, macintosh doctor. I would do the same except for the pitch fork. I am not one who likes the sight of blood, and a pitch fork can only take down one person at a time. I was able to obtain a mail-order fully automatic machine gun and 20,000 rounds of ammo from Jason Jinglestars General Store, Bait Shop and Gun Shop in Waycross, Georgia. A 30 second sustained burst of fire from that baby can take down a big tree. So, anyone coming to my door with the H1N1 influenza virus has a life span of about 3 seconds.

Keep the Faith, brother, and let's stamp out this H1N1 influenza virus from our country .............. and, while we are at it, let's get rid of any undesireables that might be ruining our country. We could turn the island portion of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador as a penal/leper colony. That way, we rid our country of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and our undesireables. A "two for one" sale, n'est pas?

Paix, mon ami.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

This just in from CNN.com

"AURORA, Colorado (CNN) -- Gun shops across the country are reporting a run on ammunition ...." Might have to get a pitch fork or two to supplement my supply of weapons. We shall see.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

I was watching the news this morning.. CP24 - because my kids do not like CNN..
so i can not verify the numbers but death toll world wide of Mexican flu is only 27 - seems odd... Maybe the Mexican Officials were confused which died from the drug/tourism trade and which died from the flu... 

how do you go from 150 down to 27..?

if that is the case then level 5 seems a little high...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> if that is the case then level 5 seems a little high...


Number of deaths isn't the deciding factor--it's the spread of the disease.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

You also have to take into consideration the typical media rush to report sensational developments, even before the facts themselves trickle in and get tallied up. Bad news is good business, don't you know.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

macintosh doctor said:


> Maybe the Mexican Officials were confused which died from the drug/tourism trade and which died from the flu...


MD, do you intentionally make offensive statements, or does it just come naturally?


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Even so, there are less people with this flu than there are people with the HIV - and the WHO still hasn't conceeded that the HIV is a pandemic worthy of any real effort. Millions of people die of malaria, and they don't consider that a pandemic, so that basically tells me that the WHO is yet another UN organization that is nothing more than a money sucking tumor that has no practical use.

It goes without saying that millions, perhaps billions, of people are threatened or killed by poor quality water, and of basic diseases like Yellow Fever, Malaria, etc. - but it's all about these WHO people gettign everyone riled up about a dubious disease only because they are praying for the return of the Spanish Flu, so they can use that body count to justify their fat paycheques...

People are nuts. beejacon


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> MD, do you intentionally make offensive statements, or does it just come naturally?


He can't help it. Ignorance and bigotry go hand in hand. I wonder which one came first?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

macintosh doctor said:


> I was watching the news this morning.. CP24 - because my kids do not like CNN..
> so i can not verify the numbers but death toll world wide of Mexican flu is only 27 - seems odd... *Maybe the Mexican Officials were confused which died from the drug/tourism trade and which died from the flu... *
> 
> how do you go from 150 down to 27..?
> ...


You need to be much more mindful of your comments on ehMac. I got several admin alerts about an over-the-line comment, and before getting to the actual post, I guessed that the comment was going to be coming from you. 

Many of your comments are coming off as ignorant and offensive. They need to stop or be posted elsewhere.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

not sure how it is offensive or ignorant.. In 2008, more than 6,000 people were killed in drug violence in Mexico,
about US and Canadian 11 tourists killed in Mexico not by the Flu... 

so how is my statement offensive? How can the Mexican officials say at first 150 now say 27 died of flu? can they not tell the difference from bullet holes and flu death related issues vs over dose ?

if you do you find my statements offensive, then do not watch the news. 
It seems the officials drop the ball on the whole Flu as well, like they botch the investigation of the murders of Tourists.

sample of bad Mexican management. If I am paying over $3000 for my family to stay in a 5 star hotel/resort - i would hope i get that quality back in safety and service
when we stayed in Cabo San lucas ( Riu Palace - 5 star )... we had to line up every morning like a bread line ( at times 1.5 hours) to make our reservations, for the 5 star a la carte resturants we wanted to eat in, for that night only.. how is that service and 5 star or even relaxing.

not even in Cuba did we do that.

I have stayed in the jungles of Costa Rica and felt safer, God knows what lives in the bush.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> not sure how it is offensive or ignorant.. In 2008, more than 6,000 people were killed in drug violence in Mexico,
> about US and Canadian 11 tourists killed in Mexico not by the Flu...
> 
> so how is my statement offensive? How can the Mexican officials say at first 150 now say 27 died of flu? can they not tell the difference from bullet holes and flu death related issues vs over dose ?
> ...


What part of this don't you understand. We feel that your comments are ignorant and offensive because they are. Of course you have your fallacious justifications.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

This just in from CBC.ca --

"Saskatchewan has its first two cases of swine flu, the province's Health Ministry confirmed Thursday.

A teenage girl from Saskatoon and a woman in her 20s from the Regina area recently became ill with the H1N1 influenza A virus. Both had mild symptoms and didn't need to be hospitalized, the province said.

Until now, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador had been the only provinces without any cases of swine flu, which is believed to have originated in Mexico several weeks ago."

So, NL is now the last province in Canada to be H1N1-free. Stay healthy, mes amis.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Damn scary documentary running on National Geographic channel

Killer Flu, Tracking the Next Killer Flu - National Geographic Magazine


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## tlai (Oct 10, 2007)

I think the flu is not bas now, i don't hear it much on news or newspaper a lot


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's in a holding pattern - until a next wave appears or does not it's too early to make any call.

Good over view here

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/health/10chan.html?_r=1&ref=global-home


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc, between National Geographic and the NY Times, can't you find more credible sources??? Or, at least try to find some hopeful news ................. Merci, mon ami.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Dr.G. said:


> MacDoc, between National Geographic and the NY Times, can't you find more credible sources??? Or, at least try to find some hopeful news ................. Merci, mon ami.


I found the NY Times fairly credible in terms of mass media that is. Compared to anything we have here in Canada anyway.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The coverage in Canada has been pretty good - we are world leaders in this due to the experience of SARs and the medical community is well aware of the risks.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> I found the NY Times fairly credible in terms of mass media that is. Compared to anything we have here in Canada anyway.


Adrian, the NY Times is a rag. Go to Fox News if you want the real truth behind how this flu is actually a government conspiracy. You'll see. The truth is out there, but you won't find it in sources like the NY Times, the Washington Post, National Geographic, the AMA, etc, etc.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> The coverage in Canada has been pretty good - we are world leaders in this due to the experience of SARs and the medical community is well aware of the risks.



SARS was also a government conspiracy. Show us the real path to truth, MacDoc. Show us the way ...................

Paix, mon ami.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Seriously, both articles were quite an eye-opener as to the potentials of this and other flu outbreaks. One can easily see how a pandemic can/will spread throughout the world.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The key point of the NYT in my view was the need to clearly distinguish the spread of a pandemic with the risk the disease poses.

There is an enormous difference between mortality threat betwen H5 avian which cannot currently be a pandemic and SARs which could have and this one which arguably is but with few deaths.

It is the uncertainty which this NEW strain brings into play that has authorities most concerned.

Japan is rally trying to contain it entirely from entering the country. It's here in Canada.

The oddest situation is that it might be prophylatic in it's current form...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Just when you let your guard down



> *WHO warns of severe form of swine flu*
> 
> By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor – Fri Aug 28, 1:36 pm ET
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Doctors are reporting a severe form of swine flu that goes straight to the lungs, causing severe illness in otherwise healthy young people and requiring expensive hospital treatment, the World Health Organization said on Friday.
> Some countries are reporting that as many as 15 percent of patients infected with the new H1N1 pandemic virus need hospital care, further straining already overburdened healthcare systems, WHO said in an update on the pandemic.


more

WHO warns of severe form of swine flu - Yahoo! News


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

There doesn't appear to new any _new_ news there. Just basically a reframing of what the WHO has been reporting since they got a handle on this.

This was also in the news today:

HealthZone.ca

It seems as though no one really knows anything. All reports I've read regarding the flu season in the southern hemisphere was that things were essentially business as usual.

I think we need to be more afraid of the vaccine.


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