# I Gave Lion A Good Try, But It’s Not For Me



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Well, as the title says, I gave Lion a good try (for three weeks), but it’s not for me.

Why?

Let me count the ways.

First and foremost the loss of the “save as” function has literally destroyed a work pattern I had developed over many years, that worked very well for me to write columns and maintain the updates on my website every day.

The loss of that function and the inappropriate “locking” of all my personal files by Apple via Lion is simply unacceptable. It added hours every week to my normal work flow. I am sick to death of seeing this Microsoft-like warning and having to deal with it on 99% of the files I use daily:

http://homepage.mac.com/plmnice/.public/unlock bull**** copy.jpg

Then there is the template system I had developed and relied upon for many long years. Files I used as templates were simply opened, copy changed, copied and pasted into RapidWeaver and the file closed, but not saved, yet left intact for use tomorrow. Lion changed all that (with that ridiculous auto-save thing that some propellor-head deemed would be “better” for me to work with) and any alterations I made were immediately “saved” and destroyed my self-devised system. Oh, I know. If I wanted to make a few extra steps and do it a new way, it would become 'natural' to me. Bull****e. Why add keystrokes to accomplish the same darn thing?

Then Lion went on to ruin Netflix for me. I watch Netflix a lot on my 37” Samsung HDTV via my MBP, but as soon as Lion got involved, I got a notice telling me I could no longer watch Netflix unless I upgraded Silverlight by clicking here and downloading the new program. I did just that a dozen times and no joy. Lion didn’t like it. So I called Netflix help and they passed me off the *shudder* Microsoft help. I contacted them three full days ago and still no call back nor email. Why am I not surprised? That after calling Netflix back after 24 hours without a response to tell them Microsoft was doing nothing for their customers. So no more Netflix with Lion.

Then I ran into the wall called YouTube and Flash. I got the same type of “you cannot watch YouTube videos unless you upgrade to Flash 10.3. I did that too. About a dozen times again and still no joy. Lion does not like it. So, no more YouTube with Lion.

And don’t even get me started on my Java experience. Reinstalled and updated Java until I was blue in the face and still it would leave half the Java based stuff on web sites blank.

And before anyone blames the installer of Lion, I downloaded and re-installed it three times to be sure it was no the OS, but to no avail with no change in all the symptoms above.

Then there was scrolling backwards. I gave that a try for a full week and it is just wrong when one is not on an iPad or iPhone. Putting on a computer was likely the thinking of some horse’s ass at Apple. Yeah I know, I can change it and I did, but I still could not get back the arrows in the scroll bars. I liked them and used them a lot. Lion does not like it. So, no more scroll arrows.

And all those fancy moves with your fingers on a track pad drove me crazy. I just want to scroll or click and no matter how I tried to set the track pad, it did strange things to my computer that I could not even get out of via the good old reliable “escape” key. Lion did not like it. So, I wound up having to quit programs and restart them to fix an inadvertent finger movement on the track pad. One more time waster extrordinaire.

So As I type this on Lion on my external HD, SuperDuper is copying my Snow Leopard clone back onto my MBP.

Oh I saved a clone of my Lion HD first just in case Apple suddenly comes to their senses and makes Lion a computer operating system, not some bastardization designed to try and make a computer a semi-iPad.

Disappointment does not adequately describe this mess called Lion for me. Your mileage may vary.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Thanks for your brutal honesty, SINC. It makes me feel better about the rationale for my choice of not upgrading yet, since it sounds like much of this OS is perhaps not-quite-ready-for-prime-time. One wonders if Microsoft may come back at Apple with some well-timed Windows 7 vs. Lion commercials. Too many changes in one shot, I guess.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks for the info SINC. I will do the same and hold back and stick with SL for now.


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

Sinc your post is a real eye opener, it seems all the other posts I read here and there, only gush about how great Lion is.


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## yamawho (Jan 10, 2010)

I was going to install it on my mini last week but decided not to. I didn't want to fall victim as a early adopter. 

How long will they support SL for ?


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## Rounder (Aug 9, 2008)

I turned off that feature that "locks" your documents... kinda silly I thought. Not sure why you had such a tough time with installing things like Java / Flash...


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

I can't speak to the Save as feature as i haven't run into a problem with it just yet but this speaks about some possible work arounds.

Save As Command Gone with Lion and New Apps

As for Java and Flash i'm not sure why you're having issues there. I installed both on my MacBook without any issue. You can also restore the scrolling back to the old way if you prefer (I did) but there's nothing wrong with Snow Lion so if that's your preference then use it.

What hardware are you installing this on?


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## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Sadly.. we are going to miss the days of usable computers. Especially Mac.. everything is pointed to iOS on everything.. Apple seems to have turned its back on the 'pro or prosumer' market.. I can understand why - they sit back and collect the millions in profit from the iphone and ipad - no need to develop the mac market anymore - so the logic is lets just make it the same..

I am still on SL myself, but the issue we have is every new computer we sell and install has Lion.. so in all my reluctance we will have to install Lion for support reasons as much as I hate too..

I may just need to have two computers on my desk now.. one for playing and doing support ( lion ) and the other that I actually use to pay the bills and make money with 10.6.x ( there are still a lot of apps that are not compatible, i can not afford to make the jump just yet. )


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## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

Lion seems ok for home use, but I cant imagine using it at work, and as Sinc mentioned, it destroyed his work flow. I can see that for mine to. I am very picky about how I work, and up till Lion, Apple was coming out with good solid updates to OS X that only improved my work flow. I was always excited to see what Apple had up its sleeve since day one when I installed 10.0 on release date, and every other OS update since then. 

I will wait this one out and see how apple deals, or doesnt deal with customers, especially pro users, who like me, need to make money with my computer.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

I find myself confused at the OP.

Of course you have your own workflows. Of course you have your own way of doing things that you've developed for years.

But "Versions" and other "features" of Lion have been descirbed in detail and included in OS promo material since the First Lion Preview was released to Developers on October 20, 2010.

That's 10 months ago. 

I don't like Versions either - I'm just lucky that none of my professional workflow involves Preview or iWork. 

Otherwise, most of what annoyed you can be turned off, or seems to be a one-off issue (Java, Flash and Silverlight have all worked for me on the three machines I've tried them on). Scrolling (as mentioned already) can be changed back.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## brucemlloyd (Sep 4, 2008)

I've watched Netflix with Lion (now 10.7.1), YouTube, Vimeo and else where. Certainly Silverlight needed to be updated, and it works without problems. Maybe a backup, reformat and complete install might be wise.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

fyrefly said:


> Otherwise, most of what annoyed you can be turned off, or seems to be a one-off issue (Java, Flash and Silverlight have all worked for me on the three machines I've tried them on). Scrolling (as mentioned already) can be changed back.


As the OP mentioned, in regards to scrolling, the lack of the scroll arrows is what picks him, so just how do you change back and regain these arrows?
I too believe that apple by making OS X similar to iOS is trying to gain by capturing new users, all those who have jumped on the iPhone-iPod bandwagon, they probably feel most existing users will tough it out and stick around in the end.


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## brucemlloyd (Sep 4, 2008)

jamesB said:


> As the OP mentioned, in regards to scrolling, the lack of the scroll arrows is what picks him, so just how do you change back and regain these arrows?
> I too believe that apple by making OS X similar to iOS is trying to gain by capturing new users, all those who have jumped on the iPhone-iPod bandwagon, they probably feel most existing users will tough it out and stick around in the end.


System Prefs > General > Show Scroll Bars

In all honesty, this is precise what Apple needs to do. They technically have two OSes, iOS and Mac OS X. They need to come together. It's an issue when on one device you scroll down and the content moves in the opposite direction, and on the other, it does the opposite. If you know anything about Apple it's they want everything to be consistent. 

A year from now you'll all be wondering how you got along without Lion.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Choosing Duplicate and then Save in Lion is the same as Save As. I honestly don't see the big deal.

And if it's just the extra step that's a pain, you could write an AppleScript that tells the app to do it for you and put it in the AppleScript menu. Then assign a keyboard shortcut to the AppleScript.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

brucemlloyd said:


> System Prefs > General > Show Scroll Bars


Did you actually read either the OP's or my post?
What part of the word "arrows" do you not understand?
We are all aware you can turn of the magical disappearing scroll bar and get a scroll bar (of sorts) back, but it is the missing scroll arrows, you know, the little pointy things at the end of the scroll bars that we are talking about here.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I keep reading about all the workarounds for the new features in Lion. Folks, when users are relying on workarounds so much of the time, you've got to wonder if your product is really doing what it's supposed to do. I thought Apple's basic philosophy was to "delight the customer" and help them solve problems.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

SINC said:


> Then there is the template system I had developed and relied upon for many long years. Files I used as templates were simply opened, copy changed, copied and pasted into RapidWeaver and the file closed, but not saved, yet left intact for use tomorrow. Lion changed all that


In Lion, I would just open, duplicate, change copy and close, saying yes to save. Is that really that different or more cumbersome?


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

jamesB said:


> What part of the word "arrows" do you not understand?


I thought that's why we all owned mice with scroll wheels by now.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> I keep reading about all the workarounds for the new features in Lion. Folks, when users are relying on workarounds so much of the time, you've got to wonder if your product is really doing what it's supposed to do. I thought Apple's basic philosophy was to "delight the customer" and help them solve problems.


My feelings exactly, sure you can apply a command line hack here and there to make things sort of work somewhat like what we're used to, change this and that back to something similar to SL, but in the end what do you have, and operating system full of hacks and patches that maybe works something like the last good version of OS X.
It's easy to see why anyone who has to do real work would revert back to a solid functioning system such as Snow Leopard.
And say what they will, there was never this much outcry in regards to SL or any previous OS X version, Lion is in a class all of it's own when it comes to "fail".


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> I keep reading about all the workarounds for the new features in Lion. Folks, when users are relying on workarounds so much of the time, you've got to wonder if your product is really doing what it's supposed to do. I thought Apple's basic philosophy was to "delight the customer" and help them solve problems.


I think when someone accidentally fumbles Cmd-A, random key around the S on the keyboard, Cmd-S, they are less than "delighted." I've seen it happen more than once. It was probably one of the inspirations for auto-save/versions.

I know I'm delighted by versions. Other people who accidentally save over their work will be delighted too.

Some of the power users will complain because they've honed their workflows around difficult (relatively) UI that has been around for years and will have to change, and I get that, but you have to look at the big picture, and the long run. Should Apple stop trying to make their OS better for others? No. Who should decide when they should stop? Apple. And will the painful change now not result in improvement in the long run? If the answer for you is no, then don't upgrade and send Apple feedback. They've changed their mind before based on feedback, they can do it again.

All of these new features are written with usability in mind. That means the computer does more for us, requiring less computer tasks for the user. That's what "the computer for the rest of us" philosophy is about.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

jamesB said:


> .
> And say what they will, there was never this much outcry in regards to SL or any previous OS X version, Lion is in a class all of it's own when it comes to "fail".


BS. There was huge outcry when MacOS X was released because it didn't exactly mimic the MacOS 9 Finder. There were even people complaining that they couldn't allocate RAM to their apps any more because they were used to the old way and refused to learn about how MacOS X managed memory. They didn't want to believe the new way is much better.

With Tiger people complained about Spotlight.

People complained about Stacks in Leopard. 

There are still people running Leopard on their Intel Macs because they think Snow Leopard is worse. Heck some people refused to upgrade because they didn't like the look of the Dock.

The only difference is I see people complaining multiple times. There's more noise, but not more people complaining.


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## seyDoggy (Aug 13, 2011)

Change isn't for everyone, but honestly change is inevitable. Thankfully we are humans with opposable thumbs, who can adapt, evolve, learn... 

Admittedly I am a power user so I tend to work more with unix underpinnings more so then the finer points of the OS proper, but all this new stuff took me less then a shift to get used to. It then took me another two days to really nail down how I was going to work new features in or out of my work flow, and maybe another day to assign what I felt were relevant hotkeys, gestures and hotcorners to the stuff I thought I'd use. All while happily carrying on with daily tasks.

Nothing has really slowed me down though, and while some stuff does make me think twice from time to time, I think just about all of the new stuff is worthy additions to an already great OS. 

You question why Apple is doing all of this. Because they've spend millions on usabilty and human user interface. They are looking for efficiencies in the way we interact with our computers and our software.

We get used to the way we've done things for years, not because it's the most efficient way, but because it's what we've been given. Now apple is flipping some of that on it's head in hopes of making things more efficient down the road.

Hiccups? Sure. Moreso for some then others, but really, give things a fair shake. We weren't all mousing wizards when that bit of IO kit first came out.


---
- REAL MEN DON'T USE MENUS. I WANT TO KNOW HOW TO USE POWER COMMANDS.


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## crawford (Oct 8, 2005)

Lars said:


> I thought that's why we all owned mice with scroll wheels by now.


Seriously... besides, the OP has a a MBP with a track pad. I can't imagine having to move my pointer over to the arrows every time I wanted to move up or down in a document.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Try moving up 1000 emails with your gestures alone......XX)

Sinc and I can do in heart beat - you can't.

I'd die for a home button at times.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Try moving up 1000 emails with your gestures alone......XX)


Dragging the scroll bar manually is WAY faster than pressing down on the scroll bar arrows. And Lion still has those.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

brucemlloyd said:


> A year from now you'll all be wondering how you got along without Lion.


Not a chance in hell.



hayesk said:


> Choosing Duplicate and then Save in Lion is the same as Save As. I honestly don't see the big deal.
> 
> And if it's just the extra step that's a pain, you could write an AppleScript that tells the app to do it for you and put it in the AppleScript menu. Then assign a keyboard shortcut to the AppleScript.


All that does is create another document with the same issues when I open it next time. Save As allowed me to change what I wanted OR NOT. Lion changes anything I type within ANY document and saves it, whether I want it to or not.



fjnmusic said:


> I keep reading about all the workarounds for the new features in Lion. Folks, when users are relying on workarounds so much of the time, you've got to wonder if your product is really doing what it's supposed to do. I thought Apple's basic philosophy was to "delight the customer" and help them solve problems.


Apple is going the wrong direction in spite of the fanbois who say different. Lion is NOT giving me the freedom of choice I have enjoyed with Apple for years now. Who the hell gave them the right to 'lock' all my personal documents?



hayesk said:


> In Lion, I would just open, duplicate, change copy and close, saying yes to save. Is that really that different or more cumbersome?


I used to open, change copy and close without saving. That way my template stayed the same. Why should I have to make extra keystrokes to please some airhead at Apple?



MacDoc said:


> Try moving up 1000 emails with your gestures alone......XX)
> 
> Sinc and I can do in heart beat - you can't.
> 
> I'd die for a home button at times.


Aw, someone else with 'some legs' that sees the real issues.

And for those who thought my hardware was the issue:

MBP Matte - Dec. 2009 - 2.66 GHZ - 500 GB HD- 8 GB RAM


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

FYI - FWIW - Mac OS X 10.8 isn't going to reverse what Lion introduced. And no new Mac from yesterday forward is going to run anything below 10.7. I'd honestly try to embrace Lion more unless you plan to upgrade to Windows 7 or Linux.

You can't stay in Snow Leopard forever no matter hell bent angry you are at Lion.


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## crawford (Oct 8, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Try moving up 1000 emails with your gestures alone......XX)


1000 emails? There's your problem 
But seriously: how do those little arrows help navigate such a long list of emails?


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2011)

Lars said:


> I thought that's why we all owned mice with scroll wheels by now.


Sorry but that doesn't work really well when you have to scroll through things with very large numbers. Going from the top to the bottom of a list of thousands of items it pretty painful manually scrolling it all the time when it could be done with a single click.

As for the Save As workarounds I feel your pain SINC. None of the proposed workarounds are a single key command anymore either, now you jump through hoops.

Turning back on the scrollbars just made Lion a much happier place for me, I don't think I had even looked inside the General system pref panel in years  Thanks for the tip.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2011)

hayesk said:


> Some of the power users will complain because they've honed their workflows around difficult (relatively) UI that has been around for years and will have to change, and I get that, but you have to look at the big picture, and the long run. Should Apple stop trying to make their OS better for others? No. Who should decide when they should stop? Apple. And will the painful change now not result in improvement in the long run? If the answer for you is no, then don't upgrade and send Apple feedback. They've changed their mind before based on feedback, they can do it again.


Agreed for the most part. I do have problems with it when they take away things for no good reason though. There's absolutely no reason I can think of why Save As and versions can't co-exist in harmony, but someone decided "let's just rip out this whole type of functionality because this new way is much better, " or so it seems anyway. I really honestly can't think of why there would be a technical issue with Save As still existing along side versions. It's also not that it's some old legacy thing that just needs to go away either ... it's a very long-standing method, tried and true, but again it feels like they just thought that versions is somehow a replacement for it(?) Did they really need the real-estate in the File menu back so badly that they had to remove that whole level of functionality in their apps?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Apple - Mac OS X - Feedback




Seriously, please send your feedback to Apple.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Thanks for posting this Sinc.

I was considering selling my Windows 7 laptop and getting back into the Mac world. For now, you've changed my mind.

I laughed at MS for years until circumstances forced me to buy a Windows computer. It works, does what I ask of it, stays out of my way and works how I think a computer should work. 

This reminds me of the first time I tried to use OSX. It was so different than OS9 and I hated it. I couldn't get it to do what I wanted, I couldn't find things, it was terrible. The next few incremental upgrades smoothed out the rough spots and I could stand to use it while I figured out new work patterns.

Come to think of it, there was a similar adjustment to OS7 from OS6 and then again to 8 from 7 and I don't think anyone was happy until 8.5.

I can still remember computing on punch cards.

Margaret


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

hayesk said:


> With Tiger people complained about Spotlight.
> 
> People complained about Stacks in Leopard.
> 
> There are still people running Leopard on their Intel Macs because they think Snow Leopard is worse. Heck some people refused to upgrade because they didn't like the look of the Dock.


Spotlight still sucks, 3 generations later.

Stacks sucks, but you aren't forced to use it if you don't want. I don't.

The reason I still run Leopard instead of SL is because of print drivers. 

Versions? Give me a break. That's like people who need an idiot light to find neutral; people who have far larger issues than not saving often enough. Like maybe they shouldn't have a computer in the first place. Or sharp scissors...

Not every feature in an OS upgrade is an improvement; I don't care what some propeller head @ Apple sez. In Lion's case, it appears to have taken several giant steps backwards.

I am not interested in an OS for idiots on my desktop (iOS).

We've been looking to upgrade our desktop. If we're going to experience the kind of crap that many people have come up against, I'll pick up a two year old 8 core & run it for the next couple of years until Apple gets their poop in a group. If they never do, well, I guess I'll have to look at alternatives. Don't get me wrong, I like our Macs. However, they are just a means to an end & I ain't married to any of 'em...


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

ehMax said:


> Seriously, please send your feedback to Apple.


Seriously, Apple needs to think twice before they implement some of this garbage...


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

mguertin said:


> I don't think I had even looked inside the General system pref panel in years  Thanks for the tip.


That could be because there wasn't a "General" pref panel before, at least SL does not have one, not sure about earlier versions.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Lars said:


> FYI - FWIW - Mac OS X 10.8 isn't going to reverse what Lion introduced. And no new Mac from yesterday forward is going to run anything below 10.7. I'd honestly try to embrace Lion more unless you plan to upgrade to Windows 7 or Linux.
> 
> You can't stay in Snow Leopard forever no matter hell bent angry you are at Lion.


You seem to be missing the point, Lars. Why would someone embrace something that is making things worse instead of better? Why must one conform or else? This sounds a lot like the 1984 mentality of IBM that Apple was confronting when the first Mac ad appeared.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Lars said:


> FYI - FWIW - Mac OS X 10.8 isn't going to reverse what Lion introduced. And no new Mac from yesterday forward is going to run anything below 10.7. I'd honestly try to embrace Lion more unless you plan to upgrade to Windows 7 or Linux.
> 
> You can't stay in Snow Leopard forever no matter hell bent angry you are at Lion.


You seem to be missing the point, Lars. Why would someone embrace something that is making things worse for them instead of better? Just love me! I'll make you love me! Why must one conform or else? This sounds a lot like the 1984 mentality of IBM that Apple was confronting when the first Mac ad appeared.


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

FeXL said:


> Versions? Give me a break. That's like people who need an idiot light to find neutral; people who have far larger issues than not saving often enough. Like maybe they shouldn't have a computer in the first place. Or sharp scissors...


As a software developer, I spend most of my day working with tools that allow me to go back in time to a "known good" version. I can try something out and if it doesn't work I can easily revert to an earlier version. No advanced planning or "saving as" necessary. 

Now that Lion will let me do that with my word processor or spreadsheet? AWESOME.


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## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


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## Caillou (Jun 9, 2003)

... And I thought that I wanted to upgrade !! 

Thx SYNC—and all others that have commented here. Very useful info to take my decision NOT to move over to Lion yet (I thing that the word "upgrade" doesn't quite apply...).


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## Dejan22 (Aug 17, 2011)

Thats crappy.. 

I haven't had any of those issues, youtube, netflix, etc. all worked fine since first try on my late 2008 iMac...

I haven't had much experience with the "Save As" feature, but again I work with Adobe products so I wonder if the "Save As" will be applied to them as well, or if it will stick to more generic programs like word, etc.

Anyone know how far the "Save As" function will go?
I would imagine that Adobe would have to "OK" that feature on their end with their programs, much like how not every "iMac APP" can be viewed "full screen". They have to be enabled from the developer's end.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

For those fussing about "Save As"/Autosave and using documents as templates, it's really not all that hard. Instead of making changes and THEN using "save as", DUPLICATE the document, save it and close the original. Done. Yes, it requires a slight rethink, but it has its advantages. You're not likely to inadvertently save your changes to a document that you wanted to preserve as a template, for instance. (Done that...)

Anyway - re: Adobe - they'd have to add AutoSave to their applications. I doubt they're going to do something that will make any of their apps substantially different in functionality to the Windows versions in such a basic way. Graphic Converter apparently just released a new version for Lion with AutoSave and Versions available, _but turned off by default._ Let's hope that other software developers, including Adobe, follow suit if they want to keep everyone happy. And if Apple is listening, perhaps they'll do likewise. There is thread on the Apple forums at the moment with 290 posts discussing how to turn AutoSave off and why people don't like it.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Paddy said:


> For those fussing about "Save As"/Autosave and using documents as templates, it's really not all that hard. Instead of making changes and THEN using "save as", DUPLICATE the document, save it and close the original. Done. Yes, it requires a slight rethink, but it has its advantages. You're not likely to inadvertently save your changes to a document that you wanted to preserve as a template, for instance. (Done that...)


What you're missing is that it forces you to duplicate documents EVERY time. When one opens, edits and closes dozens of photos and documents daily, you wind up with thousands of unnecessary duplicate files on your HD. It's an abomination.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Paddy said:


> For those fussing about "Save As"/Autosave and using documents as templates, it's really not all that hard. Instead of making changes and THEN using "save as", DUPLICATE the document, save it and close the original. Done. Yes, it requires a slight rethink, but it has its advantages. You're not likely to inadvertently save your changes to a document that you wanted to preserve as a template, for instance. (Done that...)
> 
> ....


AKA the OS-X Two Step. Why do things in one step when you can use two or three Still all those extra files are sure to come in handy when you need to delete something to clear up disc space. 

Truthfully I was hoping that with the coming of Panther, the OS-X Two Step was forever behind us. Seemingly no such luck. Given the span of time it took Apple to solve the original Two Step problem this should resolve itself somewhere around OS-XI


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Paddy said:


> For those fussing about "Save As"/Autosave and using documents as templates, it's really not all that hard. Instead of making changes and THEN using "save as", DUPLICATE the document, save it and close the original. Done. Yes, it requires a slight rethink, but it has its advantages. You're not likely to inadvertently save your changes to a document that you wanted to preserve as a template, for instance. (Done that...)


Who wants to revert to the level of moron user? It would be like eliminating urinals because it's too hard to decide whether to stand or sit.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

fjnmusic said:


> You seem to be missing the point, Lars.


Nah, I'm really not. You can't stay stuck in SL no matter what and no matter how much you love it and hate Lion.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Lars said:


> Nah, I'm really not. You can't stay stuck in SL no matter what and no matter how much you love it and hate Lion.


Actually you can stay where you are for as long as the system and equipment continue to serve your own needs. Had Leopard resolved the Spotlight Issue I would have added some more RAM and updated in a heartbeat. In the meantime Tiger continues to serve me well on this "antique" eMac.

We still have an extremely obsolete LC 475 that continues to serve us well, in a very limited capacity.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

eMacMan said:


> Actually you can stay where you are for as long as the system and equipment continue to serve your own needs. Had Leopard resolved the Spotlight Issue I would have added some more RAM and updated in a heartbeat. In the meantime Tiger continues to serve me well on this "antique" eMac.
> 
> We still have an extremely obsolete LC 475 that continues to serve us well, in a very limited capacity.


Good God, Man... That just is not possible...

Don't you "KNOW" that Steve Jobs said OS9 was dead over a decade ago...

Tell that LC 475 to stop breaking the laws of time and space and die quietly like a good piece of obsolete flotsam...

:lmao::lmao::lmao::heybaby:


Actually, good on you, for keeping an old system in use.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Computers serve us, not the other way around.


----------



## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> Actually you can stay where you are for as long as the system and equipment continue to serve your own needs. Had Leopard resolved the Spotlight Issue I would have added some more RAM and updated in a heartbeat. In the meantime Tiger continues to serve me well on this "antique" eMac.
> 
> We still have an extremely obsolete LC 475 that continues to serve us well, in a very limited capacity.


Zactly, and this is my point. Macs have always been compatible with other Macs having newer or older OS's on them. They can still exchange files and be readable, depending on the limitations of the actual application. You might need a newer version of Word or Pages, for example, but the OS itself doesn't affect things.

Where this will begin to unravel is that iTunes/iCloud features like iTunes Matching are advertised as requiring Lion to work, which means unless you "upgrade" you won't have the ability to sync all of your digital music collection in iTunes, including songs you…er…_obtained_ from other sources. A great feature that will be (someday), but it makes no sense why the OS must be the newest, rather than the newest version of iTunes, especially since this feature which also work in Vista, an even older OS than Snow Leopard. This stipulation could change, but that is what the Apple website sates now.

Apple _really_ wants people to like Lion, and have priced it aggressively. But Microsoft could have also sold Vista for $29.99 and it wouldn't have changed Vista's shortcomings. Lion is something Apple needs to fix—and quickly—or at least offer the user the choice of which functions to deactivate, if it doesn't want people to consider other platforms entirely, never mind go back to Snow Leopard.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

This calls for 10.8 Snow Lion, next year, for $29.99.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

SINC said:


> Apple is going the wrong direction in spite of the fanbois who say different. Lion is NOT giving me the freedom of choice I have enjoyed with Apple for years now. Who the hell gave them the right to 'lock' all my personal documents?


I always enjoy those of us that have no problems with the software (through our own personal workflows not being impeded by specific changes in Apple's OS) being called fanboys and our opinions being tossed into the dumpster. But for those who's very specific and very personal workflows that Apple somehow didn't take into account among the Millions of OSX users are somehow glorified.

Is Apple going in the wrong direction by bringing some of iOS's stuff into OSX? Debatable to be sure. Should those who don't whole-hog agree that Lion is trash be instantly labelled "fanbois"... hogwash.

And to be clear - Apple now "locks" your personal documents in their application "Preview". Yeah, I agree that it sucks that you specific workflow has been f'd up. If you were to use a different application for your work - one that does not (yet?) support "Versions", you would have no such problem.

Again, I agree with the Mayor, in saying that complaining here is fine, but send your feedback to Apple. They could easily re-add "Save As..." back to Preview and render a lot of your issues with Lion moot. If they don't hear from users like you, they'll think they were right. We got the BL Keyboard back on the MBA... and I personally complained about the lack of BL Keyboard on the MBA several times via feedback.


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

dona83 said:


> This calls for 10.8 Snow Lion, next year, for $29.99.


with the icloud just around the corner, perhaps the Clouded Leopard


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

> You can lock a document at any time to prevent inadvertent changes. Two weeks after the last edit, OS X Lion automatically locks the document for you.* Tip: You can set the interval for OS X Lion to automatically lock your documents by clicking the "Options..." button in the Time Machine System Preferences* then choose what interval you want from the "Lock documents" pop-up menu.


(Robb Albright in the MacinTouch forum)


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

SINC said:


> What you're missing is that it forces you to duplicate documents EVERY time. When one opens, edits and closes dozens of photos and documents daily, you wind up with thousands of unnecessary duplicate files on your HD. It's an abomination.


Er...I was referring to the use of a template, which I assumed you would be duplicating/saving as (same end result). 

I would also assume that in most cases, when you edit a file, you DO actually keep your edits in the end, so AutoSave becomes moot (and in fact could save your bacon if you forget to save at some crucial point)?

Is there a reason you haven't used "Revert to Saved" or "Revert to Opened" when AutoSave has saved something you didn't actually want to save? Seems to work fine for me...

I guess I'm having a little difficulty understanding the howls of rage from some Lion users - as if Apple has betrayed them in some fundamental way. Yes, there are adaptations to be made. Yes, you may have to rethink how you do some things. No, everything is not quite perfect (is it ever?) but so far, I've experienced nothing that would cause me to abandon Lion and retreat to SL. But, to each his own.


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## MX-V (Feb 2, 2010)

Paddy said:


> Instead of making changes and THEN using "save as", DUPLICATE the document, save it and close the original. Done.


Why Apple didn't alter the "Save as" behavior to "Duplicate and close original" instead of eliminating it is beyond me.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2011)

Paddy said:


> Er...I was referring to the use of a template, which I assumed you would be duplicating/saving as (same end result).
> 
> I would also assume that in most cases, when you edit a file, you DO actually keep your edits in the end, so AutoSave becomes moot (and in fact could save your bacon if you forget to save at some crucial point)?
> 
> ...


A big problem, at least for me, is the increase of the amount of work to get the same results at the end of the day (and taking away the hotkey in the process). For me a big thing is that I used to be able to do it all without lifting my hands from the keyboard - shift-cmd-s and the job was done. Not anymore. Multiple mouse clicks and opening/closing new documents/windows all the time. Apple doubled the amount of everything involved with the process by replacing save as with a multi-step process. Next up (in the next OS release) they will brag that they 'streamlined' the process back to a single hotkey by adding a "Duplicate As" shortcut or something silly.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

Lars said:


> You can't stay stuck in SL no matter what and no matter how much you love it and hate Lion.


That's true, but you don't necessarily have to jump to Lion just because it's available either and the Snow Leopard replacement might not be Lion either. It just might be a Free BSD or Linux installation.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

mguertin said:


> A big problem, at least for me, is the increase of the amount of work to get the same results at the end of the day (and taking away the hotkey in the process). For me a big thing is that I used to be able to do it all without lifting my hands from the keyboard - shift-cmd-s and the job was done. Not anymore. Multiple mouse clicks and opening/closing new documents/windows all the time. Apple doubled the amount of everything involved with the process by replacing save as with a multi-step process. Next up (in the next OS release) they will brag that they 'streamlined' the process back to a single hotkey by adding a "Duplicate As" shortcut or something silly.


You have been able to assign hotkeys to any menu command on a global or app basis for years. Look in the keyboard system preferences. Then assign one to the Duplicate command.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

hayesk said:


> You have been able to assign hotkeys to any menu command on a global or app basis for years. Look in the keyboard system preferences. Then assign one to the Duplicate command.


So what do you do when the menu command is no longer there??????


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

eMacMan said:


> So what do you do when the menu command is no longer there??????


Assign a key to Duplicate. Then press that key, then Cmd-S - same as Save As. It's one more key press. And now that I look, many apps in SL didn't have a shortcut for Save As.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

hayesk said:


> Assign a key to Duplicate. Then press that key, then Cmd-S - same as Save As. It's one more key press. And now that I look, many apps in SL didn't have a shortcut for Save As.


One more step makes it the Leo Two Step. Times a hundred or a thousand makes for a slower work flow hence the complaints. I did not move to OS-X until they fixed the OS-X Two Step which was Panther. Looks like I'll be looking for a SL machine rather than buying new this round.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

FeXL said:


> Versions? Give me a break. That's like people who need an idiot light to find neutral; people who have far larger issues than not saving often enough. Like maybe they shouldn't have a computer in the first place. Or sharp scissors...
> ...
> 
> I am not interested in an OS for idiots on my desktop (iOS).


I'm not interested in having Apple develop for jerks who can't see the value of features - most of which can be customized or turned off - that will be useful to a lot of users who aren't idiots. Seriously, only a total loser calls people idiots over their computing preferences. Grow the hell up.


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## milhaus (Jun 1, 2004)

eMacMan said:


> One more step makes it the Leo Two Step. Times a hundred or a thousand makes for a slower work flow hence the complaints. I did not move to OS-X until they fixed the OS-X Two Step which was Panther. Looks like I'll be looking for a SL machine rather than buying new this round.


 One more key press ≠ one more step. Simultaneous, except for the initial set up. So, really, it's +1 step, not repeated. Key commands always faster than finding it in the menu.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

milhaus said:


> I'm not interested in having Apple develop for jerks who can't see the value of features - most of which can be customized or turned off - that will be useful to a lot of users who aren't idiots. Seriously, only a total loser calls people idiots over their computing preferences. Grow the hell up.


If Versions could be turned off we would not be having this discussion. If I needed everything I did backed up every few minutes I would go with one of the Leopards and run Time Machine. Otherwise I would rather use a simple Save As to give me both old and new versions only at those points in time when it will or might be be useful.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

milhaus said:


> Seriously, only a total loser calls people idiots over their computing preferences. Grow the hell up.


Thank you.

May I have another?


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## okcomputer (Jul 18, 2005)

The workflow issues are sucky for sure. I have not been negatively affected in this regard. Quite the opposite actually. 

However, the Flash and Java issues may point to some bigger problems, as I haven't read of too many people with those problems. Lots of people on here give me flack about doing a clean install, but it could help issues like these.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

milhaus said:


> I'm not interested in having Apple develop for jerks who can't see the value of features - most of which can be customized or turned off - that will be useful to a lot of _*users who aren't idiots*_. Seriously, _*only a total loser calls people idiots*_ over their computing preferences. Grow the hell up.


Ironic.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> Ironic.


Love the font choice.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

mguertin said:


> Love the font choice.


Am I surprised?


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

eMacMan said:


> If Versions could be turned off we would not be having this discussion. If I needed everything I did backed up every few minutes I would go with one of the Leopards and run Time Machine. Otherwise I would rather use a simple Save As to give me both old and new versions only at those points in time when it will or might be be useful.


More specifically, if Auto Save could be turned off, and Apple chose to have Save As, we would not be having this discussion. Versions doesn't necessarily require either of those. Apple just chose to implement their own apps that way.

Versions itself is transparent to the user, it doesn't take away from your disk space because it's auto-purging. If nobody told you, you'd never know it's there. I now get the disappointment over Auto Save, but I just can't see the problem with using Duplicate, it's only an extra keystroke if you insist on naming the new document right away.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I'm straddling the two successfully with Lion on the Air and SL on the 17".

Lack of Rosetta is a problem for me specifically.

Mail on Lion is better in most ways but annoying in a couple - just getting a simple search on a name to do from is a pain but then it does multi-term searches finally so + and -. 
Dn't much like the here it is then not little boxes that pop up and auto spell is mostly a pain I don't need mcycle turned to cycle.....as it just did twice.....grrrr

Don't like the change in Dashboard - preferred the click anywhere but it's not a deal breaker.

The lack of resolution independence is really a downer.....

I guess the major issue is I've not seen any killer reason two switch tho Mail is close.
I cannot switch on the biz as I'm wedded to a couple of Rosetta apps that I'm not inclined to shift from.

The resume where you left off from after shut down is mostly cool and sometimes a pain.

I don't use gestures and find them annoying - the Cheshire scroll bars are erratic tho the window resizing is solid.

Browsers seem CPU hoggish but that may be due to the C2 Air.

I'm wishing Apple would make a lappie specifically optimized for long battery life.
The 3.06 Core2 on my 17" is plenty quick enough and gets way long battery life given it's close to 3 years old.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2011)

MacDoc said:


> I'm straddling the two successfully with Lion on the Air and SL on the 17".
> 
> Lack of Rosetta is a problem for me specifically.
> 
> ...


Lots of the annoying things you can turn off (auto correct, disappearing scroll bars).

Also I don't think that you understand fully what resolution independence was meant to be ... it's not about having a "virtual" screen size that gives you more pixels than your physical one does, it's about interface elements that stay a consistent size no matter what your resolution or DPI is. Apparently now it's called HiDPI mode and it's targeted for usage on things like retina displays but for computers. It's all about making interface elements _bigger_ (not making anything smaller which is what we all hoped for I'm sure). It's still not enabled by default (and you don't want it to be, it's pretty fugly with some stuff, not all artwork is ready for the enforced hi res stuff yet).


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I just bought an i5 13" MacBook Pro for a friend in Sask. who is coming over next week to learn how to set up a web site with RapidWeaver for his magazine. He asked me to buy it for him and purchase any programs he needs to set up his site. I've been busy doing just that and an external back up HD is on my list for today. He's a self admitted techno dinosaur, but decided to invest in the machine and finally learn. It's a refurb that set him back only $1,049 and a sweet little machine that is quick as a bunny. It has convinced me that my 15" MBP will be my last and when I replace it come November, it will be with an i7 13" model.

Here's the thing. It came with Lion installed and no start up disks. I disabled scrolling or it would drive him crazy, but other than that, Lion screams on this rig. No issues whatsoever with YouTube or Netflix or anything else that plagued my MBP's Lion experience. Makes me think I might have to do a zero out nuke and pave on mine and start over.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

OSX 10.7.1 still does not a fix the Safari browser problem,
I still don't have an option in Safari to not take me to the last page I was at when I quit.

What is wrong with Apple?

Do they really want people that use my account to see what I lasted viewed on the Internet?

It could be some really sick porno film. (That's just an example by the way)

Oh well,
Maybe the next update will have an option to take me to my homepage on a restart of Safari.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Lawrence said:


> OSX 10.7.1 still does not a fix the Safari browser problem,
> I still don't have an option in Safari to not take me to the last page I was at when I quit.
> 
> What is wrong with Apple?
> ...


That option has always been there, just not under Safari's preferences:

System Prefs > General > *Restore windows when quitting and re-opening apps*

Uncheck it.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

Lars said:


> That option has always been there, just not under Safari's preferences:
> 
> System Prefs > General > *Restore windows when quitting and re-opening apps*
> 
> Uncheck it.


Thank you Lars, Here I was hoping Apple would stick it in Safari as an option.

Silly me for waiting so long.

Thanks.


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## Brewmattster (Sep 27, 2004)

Wow! I knew I wasn't the only one!!! I tried Lion for about a week before pulling out my time machine backup and threw on my faithful spotted cat back in place!! The one thing that really did it for me was Lion losing my mouse, trackpad and keyboard! This was really weird! It started all of a sudden, out of nowhere, my mouse, trackpad and keyboard completely stopped working. What I discovered quite by accident was that If I started screen sharing from my other Mac, everything worked from there, but still no dice on the affected machine until I quit screen sharing, then the mouse, trackpad and keyboard resumed working. Really strange. I haven't had any of the wi-fi issues some others have had, but quite a few of my own! And yes, I do really miss my "Save As"! I'm also not sold on Apple's decision of going totally software based for this OS upgrade. Call me old fashioned, but I like to have the ability of booting off of a disk in case of a hard drive crapping out! I know you can get the USB now, but still!


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

rgray said:


> You can also disable Resume on a per application basis with defaults write commands, here is what you’d want to use to disable Safari:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


That's only if you are savy to that kind of intervention,
Me, I like options and preferences to be built in already.

I hate it when I have to hack the system to get what I want,
Besides, Having to do all that crap over again after a clean reinstall is a pain.


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## okcomputer (Jul 18, 2005)

SINC said:


> Makes me think I might have to do a zero out nuke and pave on mine and start over.


Do it! Do it!


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Don't like the change in Dashboard - preferred the click anywhere but it's not a deal breaker.


That's easily changeable by going to:

System Prefs --> Mission Control --> Uncheck the button for "Show Dashboard as a space". 

I did this first thing on all my Lion Machines. Prefer the Dashboard to be overtop - like when using the calculator so I can see what I'm trying to calculate, etc...



MacDoc said:


> The lack of resolution independence is really a downer.....


Very true.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

thank you' - one annoyance gone

- ugh switching down from 1920x1200 on the 17" to the Air is a pain.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)




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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

SINC said:


> I just bought an i5 13" MacBook Pro for a friend in Sask. who is coming over next week to learn how to set up a web site with RapidWeaver for his magazine. He asked me to buy it for him and purchase any programs he needs to set up his site. I've been busy doing just that and an external back up HD is on my list for today. He's a self admitted techno dinosaur, but decided to invest in the machine and finally learn. It's a refurb that set him back only $1,049 and a sweet little machine that is quick as a bunny. It has convinced me that my 15" MBP will be my last and when I replace it come November, it will be with an i7 13" model.
> 
> Here's the thing. It came with Lion installed and no start up disks. I disabled scrolling or it would drive him crazy, but other than that, Lion screams on this rig. No issues whatsoever with YouTube or Netflix or anything else that plagued my MBP's Lion experience. Makes me think I might have to do a zero out nuke and pave on mine and start over.


UPDATE:

Well, I spent six agonizing hours yesterday zeroing out my MBP. It's a Dec. 2009 2.66 Ghz with a 500 GB HD and 8 GB of RAM and had 350 GB of data on the drive. The zero out took a couple of hours and then I installed Lion which took about an hour and then it took three hours to transfer all my data back from my clone.

The result was amazing.

Netflix and YouTube run fine with no extra downloads of anything required. Java works seamlessly without issues. And all the little things that bugged me with windows opening in unusual places on the desktop disappeared. Everything I had set up in SL appeared exactly the same way in Lion.

I did switch to traditional scrolling as I will never get used to using a touch screen intended function on a computer and I did kill most of the finger swipe stuff to suit me.

Other than that, all is well and it runs much faster now than it ever did with SL.

My only gripe now is with 'auto save' and the missing 'save as' function, so all I can do is live with the extra keystrokes and frustration. Who knows, maybe Apple will come to their senses and make that 'auto save' and 'save as' optional in 10.7.2.

I'll give it another go and see how we get along this time.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Interesting news - I've seen many people wondering about whether Apple was going to do this...

*Mac OS Lion updated to 10.7.1 on Mac App Store*



> Apple has today updated Lion and the roughly 4GB installer to 10.7.1 on the Mac App Store. Apple will most likely carry on this new trend of releasing the delta update via SU first, followed by updating Lion in the Mac App Store for new downloaders.


(9to5mac)


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

CubaMark said:


> Interesting news - I've seen many people wondering about whether Apple was going to do this...
> 
> *Mac OS Lion updated to 10.7.1 on Mac App Store*
> 
> ...


This won't be for people updating from 10.7.x to 10.7.x (newer version). It's going to be for people coming from 10.6.6+ and want to upgrade to the newest version of Lion right off the bat, versus upgrading to 10.7.0 and then running Software Update thereafter. It makes good sense.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

SINC said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Well, I spent six agonizing hours yesterday zeroing out my MBP. It's a Dec. 2009 2.66 Ghz with a 500 GB HD and 8 GB of RAM and had 350 GB of data on the drive. The zero out took a couple of hours and then I installed Lion which took about an hour and then it took three hours to transfer all my data back from my clone.
> 
> The result was amazing...


This is good to hear, Don. Now if only there was a way to restore functionality to some of the other apps we've paid good money for not that long ago...including my Tascam DAW controller...I'd be in there too.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

CubaMark said:


>


ell ohhh frigging ellll

love the Tool reference in there too. :clap::clap:


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Background Auto Save has of course been around for sometime. AddressBook and iPhoto are examples that come to mind. 

OTH it certainly has no place as an uncontrolled part of Preview, an app many use for doing a quick review of photos. When reviewing photos and choosing which to trash, needless dupes and/or modified creation dates are hardly an asset.


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## RatsOnMacAttack (Mar 5, 2005)

This week in our store, Ive had 6 people come back and get me to revert their machines back to SL. Noone Ive spoken to really like Lion at all, and its unusable for most. I installed it on my wifes 2010 MBP to try it out when it was first released, she certainly doesnt think too much of it either.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

RatsOnMacAttack said:


> This week in our store, Ive had 6 people come back and get me to revert their machines back to SL. Noone Ive spoken to really like Lion at all, and its unusable for most. I installed it on my wifes 2010 MBP to try it out when it was first released, she certainly doesnt think too much of it either.


"unusable for most"? That's a _bit_ extreme, don't you think? As someone who has been using it for weeks now and today had to boot from an external drive with Snow Leopard (simply and only because all my files are on the external which is a clone of my home computer - I'm at the cottage with my laptop right now) I really can't say that Lion in any way, shape or form causes me difficulties, and I actually missed a few things when I was back in SL. Auto correct most of the time is quite useful, for instance...not always, of course, but enough of the time that I leave it on!

And kudos to Sinc for giving it another try. I hope it continues to go well.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sinc

a) why would you bother with zeroing out your drive? - complete waste of time.

b) it runs faster because it's optimized after the transfer not because it's Lion.

The fresh install doesn't hurt.....the rest is horsepucky.

Get Drive Genius or IDefrag and keep it quickl


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

MacDoc said:


> Sinc
> 
> a) why would you bother with zeroing out your drive? - complete waste of time.
> 
> ...


MacOS X has self-optimized on the fly for a long time. IDefrag is a waste of time. Lion has improvements to the file manager code that makes it faster.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

eMacMan said:


> Background Auto Save has of course been around for sometime. AddressBook and iPhoto are examples that come to mind.
> 
> OTH it certainly has no place as an uncontrolled part of Preview, an app many use for doing a quick review of photos. When reviewing photos and choosing which to trash, needless dupes and/or modified creation dates are hardly an asset.


Huh? Preview doesn't make dupes unless you tell it to, nor does it modify the creation dates when it saves. If it updated a thumbnail, the modification date is updated, but that's about it.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## Mythtaken (Mar 22, 2011)

I installed Lion a few weeks ago. I've been following the debate while getting used to it myself. At this point I can comfortably say I like it. I haven't run into any problems with it and my machines seem to run slightly faster. I don't have a problem with versions filling up my drives and I don't miss rosetta. I actually like the natural scrolling on my MBP, but use the traditional on my iMac without any confusion. 

As for the "Save As..." issue, I don't have one. I'll admit it may take some folks a bit of time to get used to doing things differently, but in my opinion it should have gone away years ago. Clicking Save As... is easy and quickly became a habit, but Duplicate and Save is the right way to do it. It forces good content management habits. I can't begin the count the hours I've wasted over the years resending document templates to people who intended to use Save As... after they made their changes, but forgot or got distracted and hit cmd-s instead. 

Overall, I'm pleased with the changes Lion brings. I categorize it as an incremental improvement rather than a radical change. Obviously not everyone likes it or can get their heads around the changes, but that's always the case. If change was easy, everyone would be doing it.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Using both on essentially identical set ups about the same amount of time each day I have to say I'm glad to get back to SL each time and when working in SL there is nothing I miss from Lion.

Mail needs a bit more work in Lion as it shows the most promise but the finicky to and from Cheshire buttons just drive me batty.
There is also zero need to have the X in the search field as a cheshire - just leave the damn thing visible. 

The resume function after shutdown gets annoying when it reopens 20 windows in three browsers. Needs to to have a command to opt out at restart.
On a slow internet connection the resume just is a killer.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> The resume function after shutdown gets annoying when it reopens 20 windows in three browsers. Needs to to have a command to opt out at restart.
> On a slow internet connection the resume just is a killer.


???

Lion has just that on my MBP. Just uncheck the box:


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

MazterCBlazter said:


> We pay a premium price for Apple products. I expected much better.


That's an interesting comment. So what did you expect? What would be "much better" in your opinion?

I upgraded to Lion because I know the under the hood changes will result in faster and more secure software. I don't like all of the UI improvements but the ones I don't like are optional, like Launch Pad and Full Screen on multiple screens. As for Versions, I like it: it's a safety net that doesn't get in the way. People complain about Duplicate+Save adding up to a lot of extra keystrokes as opposed to "Save As" but then they don't consider all the Command-S keystrokes that they no longer need because of Auto-save. It's a net benefit, in my opinion. I also think Mission Control is an improvement on Spaces and exposé.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

My iChat died. That's the only thing I miss.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

SINC said:


> ???
> 
> Lion has just that on my MBP. Just uncheck the box:


Sinc, I think the poster means by "opt out", like a preference setting, disable it once and it should stay that way, not default back every time you log out or restart which gets old very quickly.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

hayesk said:


> That's an interesting comment. So what did you expect? What would be "much better" in your opinion?
> 
> I upgraded to Lion because I know the under the hood changes will result in faster and more secure software. I don't like all of the UI improvements but the ones I don't like are optional, like Launch Pad and Full Screen on multiple screens. As for Versions, I like it: it's a safety net that doesn't get in the way. People complain about Duplicate+Save adding up to a lot of extra keystrokes as opposed to "Save As" but then they don't consider all the Command-S keystrokes that they no longer need because of Auto-save. It's a net benefit, in my opinion. I also think Mission Control is an improvement on Spaces and exposé.


I used Command-S once per file, when I was done and ready to save it. Have done it that way for years with only the very tiniest percentage of lost work, so the extra keystrokes are real for me with zero benefit. 

As for Mission Control (and Spaces and exposé too) I never used them, nor will I ever.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

SINC said:


> I used Command-S once per file, when I was done and ready to save it. Have done it that way for years with only the very tiniest percentage of lost work, so the extra keystrokes are real for me with zero benefit.


If you lost only an hour of work over a year that's equivalent to about 10000 Command-S keystrokes saved. The argument that the extra step to Save after Duplicate (which according to your workflow, you don't even press until you are finished editing) makes affects productivity is getting pretty ridiculous.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

hayesk said:


> If you lost only an hour of work over a year that's equivalent to about 10000 Command-S keystrokes saved. The argument that the extra step to Save after Duplicate (which according to your workflow, you don't even press until you are finished editing) makes affects productivity is getting pretty ridiculous.


You conveniently forget the other extra keystrokes to 'unlock' every damn file that I never 'locked' and 'unlock' every damn picture that I never 'locked' and I do hundreds of them every week.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

SINC said:


> You conveniently forget the other extra keystrokes to 'unlock' every damn file that I never 'locked' and 'unlock' every damn picture that I never 'locked' and I do hundreds of them every week.


I didn't conveniently forget anything. We were talking about Save As vs. Duplicate+Save. You don't need to unlock anything when you are doing this.

But if you don't like your files being locked, why don't you unlock them all in one bulk operation and be done with it. Read here:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3236515?start=0&tstart=0
Customize the script as you see fit.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

hayesk said:


> But if you don't like your files being locked, ...


...I just won't bother with Lion.

This is such a crock. Why not have the option for the user to lock files, rather than incorrectly assume that we all want them locked?

As a photographer I have several hundreds of thousands of files backed up at least triplicate, if not more. This equates to at least a couple million files. I frequently delve into the archives from 5 or more years ago to retrieve & edit images. 

Script or no script, thx but no thx...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

hayesk said:


> I didn't conveniently forget anything. We were talking about Save As vs. Duplicate+Save. You don't need to unlock anything when you are doing this.
> 
> But if you don't like your files being locked, why don't you unlock them all in one bulk operation and be done with it. Read here:
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3236515?start=0&tstart=0
> Customize the script as you see fit.


Better yet, Apple can update Lion and remove 'their' locks from 'my' files, after all, I had nothing to do with locking them. 

For years now using Preview, I open file, resize, save and close file. Now because Apple says so, I should open file, create duplicate, resize, save and close file? I don't think so. I would much rather open file, resize, unlock, save and close than create another file, wasting more disk space. Who needs hundreds of duplicate files created every week? Not me.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

SINC said:


> Better yet, Apple can update Lion and remove 'their' locks from 'my' files, after all, I had nothing to do with locking them.
> 
> For years now using Preview, I open file, resize, save and close file. Now because Apple says so, I should open file, create duplicate, resize, save and close file? I don't think so. I would much rather open file, resize, unlock, save and close than create another file, wasting more disk space. Who needs hundreds of duplicate files created every week? Not me.


Sounds like your newfound fondness for Lion is waning a little, Don.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Not at all, other than the loss of 'save as' and the locking of all my files, the rest is fine.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

So Sinc, is Lion Apple's Vista? I was thinking of converting my SL to Lion on my mini and then decided against it as there does not seem to be a clear verdict as to whether Lion is a winner. It sounds if too many updates will be forth coming.... I think I'll just sit awhile and convert only when I have to. The problem will be when I buy a new laptop....since probably all will be Lion so I will have a mix of OS in the house.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I don't think it would be fair to call Lion Apple's Vista Rp. Sure it has some bugs like 'save as', 'locked files' and scrambled desktops on restart, but other than that is fast and so far reliable. And maybe mission control and launchpad are just so much useless eye candy when one is used to the apps folder in the dock and as one who never used spaces or expose anyway, they make no difference to my experience.


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## markw (Feb 27, 2008)

I am so glad I cloned my drive before Lion!
iTunes movie and TV playback sometimes looks horrible under Lion! For no reason at all my video looks like the frame rate has dropped! Instead of smooth action (even something as basic as a slow pan across a room) I get video that looks like it stutters! And this on my new i7 iMac with the 2GB video card!
I booted into my clone drive through FireWire and tried playing videos, everything was smooth as it should be!
Has Lion messed up how VideoRam is handled? I keep saying it, but iTunes behaves like the time I upgraded an old Pentium PC from Windows 98 to XP, suddenly my video playback looked like [email protected]!!
Maybe this coming long weekend I'll begin the process of reformatting my iMac drive and dropping Snow Leopard back on it! I'm tired of All my videos looking like they were shot by Tony Scott!!!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

^^

Did you 'zero out' your iMac's HD with Disk Utility before installing Lion? If you just 'upgraded' over the top of SL, there's your problem. Take a couple of hours to zero out that machine's HD while you still have your clone, then install Lion and see the difference. I did it both ways and the zero out works flawlessly.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## markw (Feb 27, 2008)

rgray said:


> Shoulda done a clean install for Lion!!!


Not sure if that would make a difference, I'm following a support thread where people are suffering the same problem with Lion on the Mac Mini. Including people who bought the new model with Lion pre-installed, now they are sad because they can't downgrade. 
Apple really needs to look at how Video memory is handled, I never had problems like this with my 4 year old 20" iMac Dual Core and it only had a 256 MB video card. I went for the biggest video card on my iMac so that it could handle anything I could throw at it! I didn't expect it to fail at simple iTunes TV shows!XX)


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

I can't honestly believe I'm hearing that there are this many issues with an upgrade install. What's the point of a nice easy app store download if you have to make a USB installer and zero out your drive?

Lion is starting to scare me a bit. Come on 10.7.2... Do your magic.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

lion seems to e the vista of os releases.

Visiting family my father in law who has used macs for years has had nothing but horrible problems with lion, he said it's the worst thing he's ever seen from apple, ever.

I'm not so excited about this release anymore...


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## markw (Feb 27, 2008)

One thing I forgot to mention is that everything else works fine in Lion! I had to reinstall iWork so that I could upgrade them for Lion, it wouldn't upgrade Pages and Numbers alone, that was an easy fix, now I can get fullscreen numbers!
But I also use my iMac as a personal entertainment centre, I'm quite comfortable putting on headphones and watching movies on the 27" screen, but that is the only thing Lion failed at. Also the loss of Front Row is disappointing, I enjoyed that interface!


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Groove, the question I have is when will I be forced to change? I see Apple moving to a single OS for all its hardware, this means that software ( and I don't buy a lot of it, but new stuff ) will be Lion only .... so I may be forced to change. Just wondering how long SL will be supported.... thoughts


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

cap10subtext said:


> I can't honestly believe I'm hearing that there are this many issues with an upgrade install. What's the point of a nice easy app store download if you have to make a USB installer and zero out your drive?
> 
> Lion is starting to scare me a bit. Come on 10.7.2... Do your magic.


I can recall similar issues when going from Panther to Tiger. Tiger really seemed to prefer its own partition mapping and with some computers at least, was not stable just doing an upgrade. Not at all sure if the computers in question had also been upgraded from Jaguar to Panther but that is certainly possible. 

I know I am in the minority here but I like to start fresh when installing any new version of OS. If nothing a fresh install encourages a general clean-up of both Apps and files. Migration Assistant is still an in between option between nuke and pave and straight upgrade.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Rps said:


> Groove, the question I have is when will I be forced to change? I see Apple moving to a single OS for all its hardware, this means that software ( and I don't buy a lot of it, but new stuff ) will be Lion only .... so I may be forced to change. Just wondering how long SL will be supported.... thoughts


My only advice? Complain, Complain, Complain. If there are _*genuine*_ problems with Lion, we need to be loud and consistent with the complaints. If you are using Lion, write Apple every day with bug reports, helpful suggestions about what would make a better user experience. I've seen a lot of stuff that needs fixing and I have faith it will get fixed eventually. If you are reluctant to upgrade then just don't. Wait until it's absolutely necessary and then... If there are still bugs? Complain, Complain, Complain. 

If long time users stop adopting the new OS so readily I'm convinced Apple will be a bit more careful trying to ensure the upgrade experience is a less painful one.

just my 2¢.


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## garf1108 (May 30, 2006)

I agree with "cap10subtext".
Have complained++ to apple. It's no use complaining only on the forums.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Rps said:


> Groove, the question I have is when will I be forced to change? I see Apple moving to a single OS for all its hardware, this means that software ( and I don't buy a lot of it, but new stuff ) will be Lion only .... so I may be forced to change. Just wondering how long SL will be supported.... thoughts


You'll be forced to change sooner than later. No new Mac from late-July onward can run Snow Leopard. (In other words, if it shipped with Lion pre-installed, it can't go backwards.)


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Lars said:


> You'll be forced to change sooner than later.


I may be forced to change.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll be going to Apple...

No, I don't say that lightly and yes, I mean every word.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

FeXL said:


> I may be forced to change.
> 
> However, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll be going to Apple...
> 
> No, I don't say that lightly and yes, I mean every word.


What do you dislike about Lion?


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Lars said:


> You'll be forced to change sooner than later. No new Mac from late-July onward can run Snow Leopard. (In other words, if it shipped with Lion pre-installed, it can't go backwards.)


If the used mac market explodes suddenly, we'll know why.  Maybe I'll hang on to my Core Duo after all. "For sale: old MacBook. Chip in screen, smells funny, every part replaced twice, smack it to turn on, hard drive on it's last legs. Runs Snow Leopard! $4000 obo."  kidding...


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Are you saying that Apple doesn't do a "clean install of Lion" for those, "Including people who bought the new model with Lion pre-installed, " ??? Hmmm???

I think you're exaggerating your "absolute must do" post for a clean Lion 10.7.x install for all Lion users. Just maybe???


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

pm-r said:


> Are you saying that Apple doesn't do a "clean install of Lion" for those, "Including people who bought the new model with Lion pre-installed, " ??? Hmmm???
> 
> I think you're exaggerating your "absolute must do" post for a clean Lion 10.7.x install for all Lion users. Just maybe???


And I think you are trying to make something out of nothing, but maybe that's just me.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

deleted


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Lars said:


> What do you dislike about Lion?


1. No Rosetta. I have a few applications I use on a semi-regular basis which have not been upgraded (and some probably never will be) from PowerPC days. Is this Apple's fault? No. Still a reason not to upgrade.

2. Resume, Auto-Save, Version Control. Stupid, stupider & stupidest. If you can't see the FUBAR in these three there is no hope for you.

3. The whole migration to iOS. I said it before & it bears repeating. I don't want an "OS for Dummies" (actually, the word I used was 'idiots'. Either way...). I don't care about iPhone/iPad adopters moving to a Mac laptop/desktop.

4. Absence of Save As. 'Nuf said...

5. Ugly Calendar interface and giant step back in Mail interface & function.

And that's just the features I use on a regular basis...


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

FeXL, it's one thing to not like a feature, but to claim that "there is no hope for" anyone who likes the feature is childish, wrong, and insulting. In my opinion Duplicate+Save is an improvement on Save As as it promotes a more accurate document editing workflow, but I don't claim there's no hope for anyone who disagrees with me.

And honestly if Apple gave an option to turn off autosave, but kept versions, nobody would notice until they needed it. And then they'd be thankful it was there.

Are we going around in circles now?


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Anyone who has ever lost data because of a poor "Save" routine will never repeat the error. Period. Locking files after a period of time is just plain...stupid. Like I said, I have over a million files that I access, I don't need some...stupid...lock on each & every one of them because I happen to be over the two week period. Or whatever. How am I s'pose to figger which of the 27 versions the system saved yesterday contains the edits I want? In 10.5/10.6 I may have done a couple "Save As", then today gone back & had a look to see which one I wanted to access, then delete the others (or not). I don't need disk space eaten up by dozens of versions of hundreds of thousands of files, no matter how cheap it may currently be. And, by the time you get finished buggering around with "Resume", you haven't saved any time anyways.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. You don't like my opinion? Fine. Express yours, just as you did & we'll agree to disagree. Sorry if I offended anyone's tender sensibilities. I just feel that strongly about them.

And, don't know nuttin' 'bout no circles...


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

I don't care about your opinion. It's the assertion that there's no hope for anyone who disagrees with you that I had a problem with. It's border-lining on personal attacks and detracts from mature debate.

By the way, this page tells you how to turn off auto-locking. It falsely claims that it disables auto-save too, but it does work on locking:
http://appleheadlines.com/2011/07/21/how-to-disable-auto-save-in-mac-os-x-lion/
And it's not a hack, it's a real preference.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

hayesk said:


> By the way, this page tells you how to turn off auto-locking. It falsely claims that it disables auto-save too, but it does work on locking:
> How to disable Auto Save in Mac OS X Lion | Apple Headlines - Mac, iOS, Apple News
> And it's not a hack, it's a real preference.


Thank you for that tip hayesk, you just made my day! :clap:


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

SINC said:


> Thank you for that tip hayesk, you just made my day! :clap:


Sinc,
CubaMark pointed this out in his post #57, you must of missed it.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Obviously, I did miss CM's post, thus my reaction. More to the point, why didn't Apple point this out in their 'click to unlock' window so users would know instantly the lock procedure was indeed optional?


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2011)

SINC said:


> Obviously, I did miss CM's post, thus my reaction. More to the point, why didn't Apple point this out in their 'click to unlock' window so users would know instantly the lock procedure was indeed optional?


Probably because they seem to have a pack of trained monkeys designing the new user interface (and all things that go with it). They've made some really really odd choices in terms of UI in Lion -- not at all on par with much of their previous work. Smells like a new "design" team to me ... hopefully they come to their senses sooner than later. They are walking upon a slippery slope.


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## doglips (Feb 28, 2001)

jamesB said:


> ...must of ...


Must have. You are writing the contraction most say "must've" which sounds like "must of".


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

doglips said:


> Must have. You are writing the contraction most say "must've" which sounds like "must of".


Gheese!!! Not another English grammer nip picker poster comment that really aint necessary and nuttin to do with the subject.

I think most got and understood the original post message thanks.

PS: Your picture reminds me of a very picky English teacher I had in private school.


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## doglips (Feb 28, 2001)

Well it's for those who think clear, concise and correct writing assists in communication. For those like you, lol 

As for my picture, sorry about your education.

And as for lion, thanks to the posters here I won't be using it until there's no other option!

I think you meant: "jeez" or "geez".


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

doglips said:


> And as for lion, thanks to the posters here I won't be using it until there's no other option!


I'm sorry, shouldn't lion have been capitalized?

Observing correct capitalization does lend itself to better communication, you know...


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

No, I meant "Gheese", a softer exasperation version than some but stronger than any usual Gee Wizz, and adding a "J" gets into a religious tone to me that I'd prefer to avoid.

And I have to agree with your Lion comments. As I've posted, I lasted 2 1/2 days and went back to my SL boot volume with things working as *I* want when using my iMac 24".


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## markw (Feb 27, 2008)

rgray said:


> Until you have a clean install of Lion you have no basis for trouble shooting. In my experience, it is *always* worth doing a clean install of what is essentially a new OS.


After a clean install of Lion, I still have video issues as I described earlier, iTunes now plays movies & TV shows with some kind of a lower frame rate, action seems to strobe in stead of being smooth. As I also said I never had this problem with Snow Leopard on my old 20" iMac with a video card 1/8 the size of what I have now!
Another annoying thing about Lion seems to me to be just Why did they make it so difficult to do a clean install? If a clean install is best, why is Apple not giving that as an option when I'm downloading the App?
As usual, I've also lost a bunch of stuff from this reinstall, my Rogers mail accounts in Mail are all jumbled, they worked last night but today keep asking for the password which I keep correctly giving (I'm going to have to call Rogers tonight and get it fixed)beejacon
I'll also have to fix up Safari to get all my Bookmarks back again, I am hoping that 2 things are not broken: my Windows Bootcamp partition and my iTunes authorization:yikes:
At least I've got time this long weekend to perhaps clone this new mess to another drive and then clone my Snow Leopard back:clap:


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