# Quebec Mosque Shooting: 5 Dead



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*5 dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque*

A shooting at a Quebec City mosque Sunday night has left five people dead and others wounded.

It occurred at the Centre Culturel Islamique de Quebec, the mosque’s president told media. Local reports say the 911 call came in around 7:55 p.m. ET.

“Why is this happening here? This is barbaric,” said the mosque‘s president, Mohamed Yangui.

Police say two people have been arrested, but have not confirmed the number of dead or wounded. They also say the situation is now under control and RCMP and the Sûreté du Québec are helping with the investigation.

Reports say there were dozens of people inside when the shooting occurred. Police say the occupants have since been evacuated.

** * *​*
...a witness told Reuters that up to three gunmen fired on about 40 people inside the Quebec City Islamic Cultural Center.

** * **​
The Centre, which is located in the Sainte-Foy neighbourhood of Quebec City, was also the target of vandalism last summer when a pig’s head was delivered to it during Ramadan.​
(Global News)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Cowardly bastards!


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

At least 11 people taken to hospital (Globe & Mail)

*Two suspects* taken into custody; one at the scene, another following a police pursuit. (CBC)

Witness says *3 gunmen* opened fire on people during prayers. (Global News)


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

This is so sad!

5 dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque

I have just finished a fairly hard but very cheerful working day (doing PA) in a Belgian Antwerp District (Berchem) where Flemish, Turkish, Moroccan and whatever people contrive to make up a fine neighbourhood.

The band was composed of Flemish residents, one Paraguayan the rest Cubans, who reside in Berchem, Belgium. All residents.

Simply having a new year's drink amongst ourselves.

Nobody is ever prepared for this. Should we be scared, No.
Should we fight this yes!

HOW? I dunno!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Cowardly bastards!


Strongly agree with you here, mon ami. Paix. :-(


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Police arrest two students over Quebec mosque killings | Daily Mail Online


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Frankly I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner. We seem to be in an age of reaction and intolerance. While this is sad, expect more to come. I'm not sure how to stop this, not even sure if we can. We are in a period where to protect our freedoms we have to have less, to keep our rights we need to loose some, we are not in a state of peace and the war has started........


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Monday update: 18 wounded, 6 dead (CBC)


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Rps said:


> Frankly I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner. We seem to be in an age of reaction and intolerance. While this is sad, expect more to come. I'm not sure how to stop this, not even sure if we can. We are in a period where to protect our freedoms we have to have less, to keep our rights we need to loose some, we are not in a state of peace and the war has started........


The inter-religion war began a long time ago and won't end until the human family can finally totally expunge the stupid delusional notions of religion and the various sky-daddy myths ....... my two cents....


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Stalin wasn't killing 20 million of his own because of religion. It's a delusion to believe that atheism would solve the problem. Better to look at what we can do now to prevent tragedies such as this.



rgray said:


> The inter-religion war began a long time ago and won't end until the human family can finally totally expunge the stupid delusional notions of religion and the various sky-daddy myths ....... my two cents....


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow it's been an entire day and Turdeau has not yet introduced new gun control legislation. 

Still I think we can safely say: "It's coming very soon to a Parliament near you. It will not be carefully thought out, and there will be zero input from the general public."

Big question is: Was it wing nuts or a crafted attack to justify gun control?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Suspects identified as:

*Alexandre Bissonnette*, originally from Cap Rouge, Québec. Student in Anthropology & Political Science at Laval University.










Heavy.com pulled some info from his Facebook page:


> Bissonnette likes the Facebook pages of U.S. President Donald Trump and French far-right leader Marine Le Pen, but he does not express support for them elsewhere on his page. Other likes include the Israel Defense Forces, United With Israel and Parti Québécois of Université Laval.


Bissonnette left the scene of the shooting, later calling 911, saying he wanted to turn himself in. Cops found weapons in his vehicle, and arrested him without incident.

*Mohammed El Khadir*, of Moroccan descent, not known if he was born in Quebec or abroad. Also a student at Laval.

No photo has been released yet.

Khadir was arrested near the scene of the shooting.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*UPDATE:* Quebec police now saying that only one of the two men taken into custody is a "suspect" - the other is considered a 'witness'. They are not identifying either of the men. Given that Bissonnette was earlier identified as the man who called 911 and surrendered to police, it seems likely that he is the suspect in question. (Globe & Mail).

Twitter and other online sources were all excited (yep, that's the word) that an apparent muslim was linked to the shootings. This one is pretty representative:


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Meanwhile, _*The Rebel*_, with all the journalistic integrity it's intrepid "reporter" Faith Goldy can muster (i.e., none), suggests it's just mosque-on-mosque violence at play here.

Where's the emoticon for rolling your eyes so much they create a black hole whirlpool effect and your head explodes? C'mon, it's _*The Rebel*_. We *really* need that emoticon....


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## 18m2 (Nov 24, 2013)

CubaMark said:


> *UPDATE:* Quebec police now saying that only one of the two men taken into custody is a "suspect" - the other is considered a 'witness'.


That's one of the stupidest statements I've read in a long time ... how can someone be a witness to such an act and not be culpable.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

18m2 said:


> That's one of the stupidest statements I've read in a long time ... how can someone be a witness to such an act and not be culpable.


By definition; _Culpable_ is being deserving of blame. If you are culpable of a crime, you are the culprit, or the one who did it.

To claim a witness who did not commit the act is culpable falls in the extreme twisted logic category. Such logic is worthy of a monument of jackass skulls as tall as the parliamentary tower.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

18m2 said:


> That's one of the stupidest statements I've read in a long time ... how can someone be a witness to such an act and not be culpable.


I don't understand your reasoning. On the face of it, it appears the police mistakenly arrested a man who fled the mosque following the shooting, believing he was involved.

There were dozens of people there who were witnesses and were not culpable.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

18m2 said:


> That's one of the stupidest statements I've read in a long time ... how can someone be a witness to such an act and not be culpable.


It has been rumbling around that at least two of the victims tried to stop the attacks....culpable?........


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I saw that, Rps... one fellow who tried to tackle the gunman was shot square in the face 

Latest detail to emerge: Bissonnette was a "nice, quiet kid" who frequently visited his parents in Cap Rouge. He also has a twin brother.... wonder if *that's* going to play a role if there's ever a criminal trial. The fact that he called 911 and turned himself in, expressing feelings of remorse for his actions... perhaps an indication that he'll plead guilty to whatever charges he faces...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Frankly I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner. We seem to be in an age of reaction and intolerance. While this is sad, expect more to come. I'm not sure how to stop this, not even sure if we can. We are in a period where to protect our freedoms we have to have less, to keep our rights we need to loose some, we are not in a state of peace and the war has started........


Sadly, that is all too true Rps. But just to add the war started a long time ago now, in our country mostly underground and the occasional lunatic.

But now it seems we have anti-Muslim lunatics carrying out mass murder as well. Previously it was a war of words and now it is real life and death on both sides. 

Hopefully this is just another anomaly in this country and not the start of something bigger and more widespread.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Stalin wasn't killing 20 million of his own because of religion. It's a delusion to believe that atheism would solve the problem. Better to look at what we can do now to prevent tragedies such as this.


All too true, Amen, etc. A great post MF!


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I find this both interesting and disappointing. I mean... Bissonnette called 911, confessed, and surrendered. How much more open-and-shut could a case be for prosecutors?

*Why no terrorism charges in Quebec mosque shooting? It would place extra burden on prosecutors: experts*



> Within 24 hours of Sunday’s shooting in a Quebec City mosque, 27-year-old Alexandre Bissonnette stood in a prisoner’s box as the 11 charges against him were read aloud.
> 
> By then, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had already condemned the killing of six worshippers as a terrorism attack. Other political leaders, federal and provincial, also called it an act of terror.
> 
> ...


(NP)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

What difference would it make in sentencing? Five murders will put you away for just as long.



CubaMark said:


> I find this both interesting and disappointing. I mean... Bissonnette called 911, confessed, and surrendered. How much more open-and-shut could a case be for prosecutors?


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

Macfury said:


> What difference would it make in sentencing? Five murders will put you away for just as long.


Yes, though I have no issue if it was indeed terrorism by definition, which is what we have to go by. Does not matter if Trudeau or anyone else says it is, we have to go by definition of the word and the law. Not sure someone committing a terrorist act (by definition) would really attempt to hide it after the fact anyways. Seems many are vocal, or groups are vocal after to take credit for it.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

wonderings said:


> Yes, though I have no issue if it was indeed terrorism by definition, which is what we have to go by. Does not matter if Trudeau or anyone else says it is, we have to go by definition of the word and the law. Not sure someone committing a terrorist act (by definition) would really attempt to hide it after the fact anyways. Seems many are vocal, or groups are vocal after to take credit for it.


I have no problem with prosecuting on terrorism, but if the verdict is mental illness/drug interaction/broke up with girlfriend or something short of terrorism then perhaps they won't get their conviction.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> I find this both interesting and disappointing. I mean... Bissonnette called 911, confessed, and surrendered. How much more open-and-shut could a case be for prosecutors?
> 
> *Why no terrorism charges in Quebec mosque shooting? It would place extra burden on prosecutors: experts*
> 
> ...





Macfury said:


> What difference would it make in sentencing? Five murders will put you away for just as long.





wonderings said:


> Yes, though I have no issue if it was indeed terrorism by definition, which is what we have to go by. Does not matter if Trudeau or anyone else says it is, we have to go by definition of the word and the law. Not sure someone committing a terrorist act (by definition) would really attempt to hide it after the fact anyways. Seems many are vocal, or groups are vocal after to take credit for it.





Macfury said:


> I have no problem with prosecuting on terrorism, but if the verdict is mental illness/drug interaction/broke up with girlfriend or something short of terrorism then perhaps they won't get their conviction.


I understand where Mark is coming from, "what is good for the goose should be good for the gander". However, in the most recent acts of politically motivated murder the perps were either killed or committed suicide, so this is the first time that we are facing this kind of question in the 21st century.

If we look back in time were the École Polytechnique murders an act of terrorism? What about about Denis Lortie in the Quebec Legislature? Was that terrorism?

I think the term terrorism has to be used very carefully and judiciously and not willy nilly otherwise the term becomes diluted in meaning and severity. To me terrorism is not the act of one crazy person but of a person who is doing so supporting a particular organized cause, like in the October Crisis or ISIL and their supporters etc.

I do not think that Alexandre Bissonnette was acting on behalf of any organized group to inflict terror on the Muslim community, but I do think it was a hate crime. The two are not the same and should not be used interchangeably.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Good post, screature. Well reasoned.


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## Aurora (Sep 25, 2001)

I agree with screature too. Very reasonable post.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

screature said:


> I understand where Mark is coming from, "what is good for the goose should be good for the gander". However, in the most recent acts of politically motivated murder the perps were either killed or committed suicide, so this is the first time that we are facing this kind of question in the 21st century.
> 
> If we look back in time were the École Polytechnique murders an act of terrorism? What about about Denis Lortie in the Quebec Legislature? Was that terrorism?
> 
> ...


I agree completely, however I think the charge should simply be murder. It probably was a crime of hatred, but when it comes to defining a hate crime some of the same limitations apply as proving terrorism. Also by defining it as hate we give the killer a forum to vocalize that hatred as he has every right to defense and part of that defense could well be explaining why/how he developed the hatred.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> I agree completely, however I think the charge should simply be murder. It probably was a crime of hatred, but when it comes to defining a hate crime some of the same limitations apply as proving terrorism. Also by defining it as hate we give the killer a forum to vocalize that hatred as he has every right to defense and part of that defense could well be explaining why/how he developed the hatred.


So if we follow your logic then there should be no such offense as a hate crime. Is that correct?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

screature said:


> So if we follow your logic then there should be no such offense as a hate crime. Is that correct?


That is a leap for sure. 

Sadly the answer is that a hate crime is so difficult to prove it is useless on the books. The very word 'hate' has so many different degrees it is not possible to count on a conviction. Best the crime is made what it really is, nothing more than a bias expressed in either anger or frustration and impossible to define for the purpose of prosecution.

I hate broccoli is very different from I hate getting out of bed in the morning or I hate Muslims.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

screature said:


> I think the term terrorism has to be used very carefully and judiciously and not willy nilly otherwise the term becomes diluted in meaning and severity. To me terrorism is not the act of one crazy person but of a person who is doing so supporting a particular organized cause, like in the October Crisis or ISIL and their supporters etc.


I have major issues with this being called terrorism whereas the attack by Michael Zehaf-Bibeau on Parliament Hill was not.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> So if we follow your logic then there should be no such offense as a hate crime. Is that correct?


I never agreed with "hate crime." Hating the victim doesn't make the crime worse.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Ok so to get us back on track with what is fact and not opinion, here are some facts:

METHODOLOGICAL ISSUES - Disproportionate Harm: Hate Crime in Canada



> 2. METHODOLOGICAL ISSUES
> 
> Before presenting statistics on the incidence and reporting rates of hate crimes, it is important to discuss the question of how to define a hate-motivated crime.
> 2.1 Hate Crimes: The Problem of Definition
> ...





> 2.3 Hate/Bias Crime Definitions used in Canada
> 
> Some police forces provided a clear definition in response to the Department of Justice Canada request; for others, the definition quoted below comes from bias crime guidelines provided to officers.[3]
> 
> ...


What is a hate crime? - Canada - CBC News



> Legislative Summary of Bill C-16: An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code





> 2.2.2 Sentencing Principles
> 
> Clause 4 of the bill amends section 718.2 of the Criminal Code, which sets out certain principles to be taken into account during sentencing for an offence, including that “a sentence should be increased or reduced to account for any relevant aggravating or mitigating circumstances relating to the offence or the offender.” Currently, under subparagraph 718.2(a)(i), the following is deemed to be an aggravating circumstance: “evidence that the offence was motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, or any other similar factor.” Clause 4 adds “gender identity or expression” to this list.


So the long and the short of it is there is no specific penalty or sentence for a "hate crime", it is just a term used in different ways to inflate the "severity" of the crime but without necessarily any real consequences. Except that the Liberals are now seeking to add gender identity or expression” to this list. Which may increase or even decrease the sentence.

So the appellation of the term "hate crime" is just basically an adjective that is applied to the offense that is committed and may or may not affect the sentencing of the crime that was committed when it is deemed that the offence was a bias-motivated crime in which the offender is motivated by a characteristic of the victim that identifies the victim as a member of some group towards which the offender feels some animosity.

So it has to be directed towards some identifiable group and not just one person, i.e. I hate my wife and that is why I killed her.

So in terms of the Quebec Mosque killings, the charge will still be murder and it is to be determined if it constitutes a hate crime which may or may not affect the sentencing of Alexandre Bissonnette. 

Clear as mud but that is how I read it.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

screature said:


> So if we follow your logic then there should be no such offense as a hate crime. Is that correct?


I think you pretty effectively answered your own question with your last post.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> I think you pretty effectively answered your own question with your last post.


No not at all I was asking you what YOU thought and your logic for thinking that way. I already knew my own answer, I simply provided you with the facts. Now take the time to explain to me in your own words to defend your position. Sorry eMacMan some times you are really lazy with your responses.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Why is it that when something like this happens, all the crazies think it's a good time to jump in and contribute to the hate?*

*Mosque vandalized in Montreal's Pointe-Saint-Charles neighbourhood*

A Montreal mosque was vandalized Thursday, the same day that thousands of people of different faiths attended a funeral elsewhere in Montreal for the victims of the Quebec City mosque shooting.

Police said that between 7 and 8 a.m. an employee at the Khadijah Masjid Islamic Centre in Montreal's Pointe-Sainte-Charles neighbourhood discovered a window had been smashed with a heavy object. The building had also been egged.

** * **​
Ahmad had attended the Montreal funeral for the victims of the Quebec City mosque shooting. When he got home, he told his 20-year-old daughter, Fatima Ahmad, that their mosque had been the target of vandalism.

"I was shocked and then scared," she told CBC News.

"I don't know what's going to happen next. Is this the end, or the beginning of something?"

Fatima Ahmad, a first-year student at McGill University, said that she saw an outpouring of support following the Quebec City attack Sunday. 

"But I also see the hate doesn't seem to end."​
(CBC)


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

SINC said:


> That is a leap for sure.
> 
> Sadly the answer is that a hate crime is so difficult to prove it is useless on the books. The very word 'hate' has so many different degrees it is not possible to count on a conviction. Best the crime is made what it really is, nothing more than a bias expressed in either anger or frustration and impossible to define for the purpose of prosecution.
> 
> I hate broccoli is very different from I hate getting out of bed in the morning or I hate Muslims.


Well put.

I am going to risk ruffling a few feathers and bring up Ernst Zundel as a reason I do not believe that hate crimes as such should be prosecuted. 

_While he has been painted as being a Neo-Nazi and anti-semetic, what he put on trial for was being a holocaust denier. As a matter of fact in his Canadian trials the prosecution failed completely in its attempts to establish the first two, and Zundel was able to present some very compelling evidence to support his holocaust views. 

In fairness it has to be pointed out that Zundel never denied the existence of labor and concentration camps or that Millions of Jews and Poles died within those facilities. He did question the 6 million number from three or four different angles.

First he pointed out that pre-war census had the total number of European Jews at around 5 Million. This should be dismissed partly because Poland was not considered in those figures, but also because the anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe predated Hitler. I strongly believe that many Jews would have chosen not to identify themselves on a census. Muslims today would be equally well advised to avoid that trap.

Secondly he accurately pointed out that Hitler hated Poles every bit as much as he did Jews and wherever records have been found from concentration camps, deaths of Poles and Jews were in roughly equal numbers.

Thirdly he attacked the stories of gas chambers at the Auschwitz camps. He pointed out that none of the blueprints found after the war included gas chambers, Further he had the worlds only expert on the subject examine the chamber at the main Auschwitz camp. This gentleman had designed gas chambers in US prisons. He pointed out that Cygon blue, the cyanide that was supposedly used should have but did not leave traces in the chamber walls. He also stated flat out that for a number of other reasons the chamber would have failed regardless of the gas used. Since or perhaps because of those trials, it has been admitted that the gas chamber was actually a 1950s Soviet reconstruction, though it is still passed off as the genuine article. I think one could be persuaded in either direction on gas chambers as real physical evidence is very slim indeed.

His most telling attack related to the cremations. The exact number and capacity of the Auschwitz furnaces is known. Over the period of time when one and a half million Jews were supposedly cremated the maximum capacity would have been around 150,000. An order of magnitude less. To get to ten times capacity the official narrative claims three things. The furnaces ran 24 hours a day, they cremated two bodies at a time, and reduced cremation times from an hour to 20 minutes. A crematorium owner in Calgary pointed out that typically you can do two cremations then you have to let the furnace cool for a couple of hours. Otherwise the firebrick lining is destroyed in as little as a month resulting in several days downtime. If you keep going after the lining is destroyed the entire assembly is destroyed resulting in much longer down times. Adding a second body to the chamber means a longer cremation time, especially when bodies are emaciated as fat aids the cremation process. So doubling the bodies and drastically cutting times just wont work. 

The last one is simple math, it is possible to find the numbers and do your own calculations. To accept the official narrative requires miraculous intervention to keep those furnaces going for over a year with zero downtime, and to accomplish each double cremation in about a 1/5th of the time normally required._

The point is his crime was challenging an official narrative. My thought is if the narrative is accurate it will withstand any challenge, if not it deserves to be destroyed. Zundel should never have been brought to trial. 

Official versions need to be challenged, whether they revolve around miraculous crematoriums. Buildings collapsing without sufficient cause, or man-made CO2 causing catastrophic global warming.
*
If you believe you should indeed defend your beliefs. If you are able to do that successfully you will strengthen your beliefs and perhaps persuade others to share them. Persecuting or prosecuting those who challenge those beliefs is a clear indicator that you do not think that particular belief will withstand close examination.
*


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Yep. It is more dangerous to prosecute an idea than it is to allow someone to express it.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Well put.
> 
> I am going to risk ruffling a few feathers and bring up Ernst Zundel as a reason I do not believe that hate crimes as such should be prosecuted.
> 
> ...


*

It seems that the majority of your post was italicized indicating that it was a quotation from someone else, if you could please provide the source of the citation it would be helpful because as it is now, your statement bares no validity in fact.

No it is not a matter of "belief" it is a matter of fact, to loosely quote a Looney Tunes cartoon regarding Christopher Columbus:

"The world she is flat.

No the world she is round.

No she is flat.

No she is round. 

No she is flat."

And so on...

He was an Italian so it was obvious he could get no financial support there and so he went to Portugal to get financial support there and was denied more than once. So finally after continually lobbying at the Spanish court and two years of negotiations, he finally had success in January 1492. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus

You have to "prove" it and then it needs to be validated. You did neither.*


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Yep. It is more dangerous to prosecute an idea than it is to allow someone to express it.


Really? So when ideas are wrong you should just allow the dominant faction to impose it and not put the idea on trial? Dangerous? Maybe. Difficult yes. But where would the world be if courageous people did not fight against wrong headed ideas. 

Slavery, Apartheid, Genocide, Women's Rights, etc., the list goes on and on.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

screature said:


> So when ideas are wrong you should just allow the dominant faction to impose it and not put the idea on trial?


The highlighted quote (can someone teach me how to ehmac?):
"It is more dangerous to prosecute an idea than it is to allow someone to express it."

Express and impose strike me as two very different things.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Beej said:


> The highlighted quote (can someone teach me how to ehmac?).


Can't use the quote button to repeat a quote already quoted. Must be cut and paste.




Beej said:


> Express and impose strike me as two very different things.


That's the difference I intended.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Macfury said:


> Can't use the quote button to repeat a quote already quoted. Must be cut and paste.


Says you. The system can be changed. Proof: beejacon


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Beej said:


> Says you. The system can be changed. Proof: beejacon


You can quote me but you can't quote the quote I quoted.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Macfury said:


> You can quote me but you can't quote the quote I quoted.


Your rules don't impress me. Freedom!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

No quotes for you!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Most of the early reports on this incident had witnesses describing at least two gunmen, so this is why some people are skepitcal:

http://archive.is/Vsp82
http://archive.is/vMTvg
http://archive.is/oRCV1


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Beej said:


> The highlighted quote (can someone teach me how to ehmac?):
> "It is more dangerous to prosecute an idea than it is to allow someone to express it."
> 
> Express and impose strike me as two very different things.





Macfury said:


> Can't use the quote button to repeat a quote already quoted. Must be cut and paste.
> 
> That's the difference I intended.





Beej said:


> Says you. The system can be changed. Proof: beejacon





Macfury said:


> You can quote me but you can't quote the quote I quoted.





Beej said:


> Your rules don't impress me. Freedom!





Macfury said:


> No quotes for you!


I hear what you are saying. I come from a political background where expression of ideas very often leads to imposition so in my defense that is where I was coming from. But yes you are both correct in that free speech should be just that until it eovkes hatred and acts of violence. Then it should be shouted down to fullest extent possible, which in itself can lead to violence and thus it becomes a vicious circle, a Catch 22 if you will.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Shouted down is fine with me. Imprisoning the voice is not.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Shouted down is fine with me. Imprisoning the voice is not.


Agreed... Unless the voice is in power and carries out acts or legislation that contravene basic human rights and or law.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> Agreed... Unless the voice is in power and carries out acts or legislation that contravene basic human rights and or law.


Yep.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*The Rebel’s reporting on the Quebec mosque shooting, annotated*

The Rebel, the website started by former Sun News personality Ezra Levant after the all-news network was shut down, likes to ask a lot of questions.

It’s good to ask questions. Journalism is about questions. Unfortunately too many of The Rebel’s questions are directed at its audience, rather than the people who would actually know the answers to its questions. The result is that the audience is left to guess at answers, and that doesn’t always lead to the truth.

* * *​
The Rebel seems to have difficulty accepting the idea that initial reports about a mass shooting can turn out to be wrong, despite years of examples of erroneous reports of second shooters, or mistakes like identifying the wrong shooter at the Sandy Hook shooting (which, like with this case, wasn’t about the media having bad sources, but police having information that turned out to be incorrect).



> Twelve hours after the attack, the official media narrative involved not one but two suspects who allegedly yelled, “Allahu Akbar!” while carrying out their murderous rampage.


There’s no “official media narrative”. Some news outlets picked up the “Allah akbar” thing, others didn’t, either because they didn’t see it or because they didn’t think the sourcing was strong enough to include in their stories. The two suspects part is correct, as two suspects were arrested. This is a good reminder of how “suspect” and “perpetrator” do not mean the same thing.

* * *​
Unlike many of my colleagues, I’m in no rush to shut down The Rebel or let an irrational hate of its contributors drive my knee-jerk judgments of it. Had they been serious about following the facts in an objective manner, they might have uncovered useful information. Unfortunately, it looks like they wasted money sending two people on a trip to Quebec City where they came back with some clips from a streeter, a failed interview request with police, an unanswered email to a university, and open questions that any random conspiracy theorist could have asked from anywhere in the world. Plus a lot of information gleaned from the websites of those same mainstream news outlets that The Rebel seems to disdain and mistrust so much.

But at least Faith Goldy asked those questions while standing outside in the cold near the scene. If The Rebel has learned anything from the mainstream media, it’s that appearing to be near the news is more important than actually getting the news.
(Worth reading the full story at Fagstein)​


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Fagstein?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Fagstein?


*About*

Hi. My name’s Steve Faguy. I’m a thirty-something geek freelance journalist who lives in Montreal. This blog is about my various thoughts.

* * *​
*The name*

“Fagstein” isn’t my name. It’s the name of the blog, and a username I use, and it’s derived from the nickname an old girlfriend had for me. You can call me Steve.

(Fagstein)​


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Then there is this.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Yes, I understand the genesis of that unfortunate name.



CubaMark said:


> *About*
> 
> Hi. My name’s Steve Faguy. I’m a thirty-something geek freelance journalist who lives in Montreal. This blog is about my various thoughts.
> 
> ...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Yes, I understand the genesis of that unfortunate name.


You seem oddly obsessed with it.

And typically, apparently, uninterested in the Analysis Steve Faguy presented.

But hey, I guess distraction / misdirection is just all part of your narrative, eh?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

If Fagsgtein says it's true, who am I to argue? Just glad you're now willing to accept bloggers as authoritative sources.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> If Fagsgtein says it's true, who am I to argue? Just glad you're now willing to accept bloggers as authoritative sources.


Bloggers are fine - if they actually do, y'know, *journalism* and cite their sources. 

I object to the blanket acceptance of bloggers who demonstrate that they've had no training in journalism, do not know the ethics of the craft, and exhibit an obvious bias.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Bloggers are fine - if they actually do, y'know, *journalism* and cite their sources.
> 
> I object to the blanket acceptance of bloggers who demonstrate that they've had no training in journalism, do not know the ethics of the craft, and exhibit an obvious bias.


That makes sense.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Alexandre Bissonnette to make court appearance this morning*










Security is expected to be tight for accused mosque shooter Alexandre Bissonnette's court appearance at 9:15 in Quebec City this morning where the Crown will hand over its evidence to the defence.

Bissonnette, 27, was charged Jan. 30 in connection with the Quebec City mosque shooting that killed six men and wounded 19 others.

He faces six counts of first-degree murder and five counts of attempted murder while using a restricted firearm.

** * **​
The entire court appearance is being called a formality that won't last long, according to Bissonnette's lawyer.

"It will last maybe 10 seconds," lawyer Jean Petit told CBC's French-language service Radio-Canada.

Petit is expecting to receive the results of the police investigation before entering the courtroom.

He said that it's too early to say if he'll be requesting a psychiatric assessment of his client.
(CBC)​


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

I object to the blanket acceptance of so-called "journalists" who demonstrate that they've forgotten everything they learned in journalism school (assuming they ever actually learned it...), have forsaken the ethics of the craft in the same dark hole as the aforementioned, and exhibit an obvious bias.



CubaMark said:


> I object to the blanket acceptance of bloggers who demonstrate that they've had no training in journalism, do not know the ethics of the craft, and exhibit an obvious bias.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Are you dissing Fagstein?



FeXL said:


> I object to the blanket acceptance of so-called "journalists" who demonstrate that they've forgotten everything they learned in journalism school (assuming they ever actually learned it...), have forsaken the ethics of the craft in the same dark hole as the aforementioned, and exhibit an obvious bias.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Macfury said:


> Are you dissing Fagstein?


Possibly. I haven't clicked on the link & read the complete article.

That said, in reading the furnished quote, he seems far more objective in his observations than the person who quoted him ever does. Kinda makes me wonder why CM quoted him in the first place. Fagstein actually comes across as...reasonable.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_Another attack against muslims in Quebec:_

*Car belonging to Quebec City mosque president found torched*

The head of the Quebec City mosque that was the scene of a mass murder last winter had his car torched in his driveway earlier this month.

Mohamed Labidi, president of the Centre Culturel Islamique de Québec, says his wife was roused around 1:30 a.m. on Aug. 6 when she heard small explosions outside. She looked outside to find the car engulfed in flames.

The car was destroyed before firefighters could extinguish the flames. Police seized the vehicle as evidence and say they believe the fire was intentionally set.

"This hateful crime against the president and his family add to a long list of hateful acts against our organization," the cultural centre said in a statement.

The attack came two days after Mr. Labidi and Quebec City Mayor Régis Labeaume announced they reached an agreement to build a Muslim cemetery in the city. A couple days after the fire, an unidentified person smeared excrement on the door of the mosque.
(Globe & Mail)​


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Brutal.

Hey, CM, you ever go to The Religion Of Peace website?

Some interesting reading, all kinds of statistics. For instance (I already posted this on another thread earlier in the year but you seem to have forgotten), during the Ramadan Bombathon earlier in the year, 1850 were killed by the ROP in a month. In July there were 179 attacks by the ROP resulting in 190 deaths & 233 injuries. In the last 30 days, there have been 152 attacks by the ROP resulting in 920 deaths & 1018 injuries. As a matter of fact, the ROP has carried out 31,567 deadly terror attacks since 9/11, resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths worldwide.

I'm sorry. How many Muslims were killed in this heinous attack in Kaybeck?

And how many Muslims have been killed by white terrorists during the same time period?

And how many rapes & sexual assaults have been committed against whites by Muslims since then?

And how many rapes & sexual assaults have been committed against Muslims by whites since then?

Maybe, just perhaps, a little perspective is required here...



CubaMark said:


> Another attack against muslims in Quebec:


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CM is a car aficianado.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Macfury said:


> CM is a car aficianado.


Then this must have put him into apoplexy:

Muslims set over 800 cars ablaze in France on New Year’s Eve



> _A total of 804 vehicles were set aflame in all of France on New Year's Eve, a 14.5 per cent decrease from the previous year, Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said on Twitter Friday.
> 
> The 2014-2015 celebrations saw 940 cars burned._​


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

FeXL said:


> Then this must have put him into apoplexy:
> 
> Muslims set over 800 cars ablaze in France on New Year’s Eve


Again with the wacko right-wing fringe sources again, eh, FeXL?

*Pamela Geller*. _Jeebus_.

Do you even bother to examine these critically, or do you just accept Geller's rabid frothing as gospel?

The article published on Geller's site:

*Muslims set over 800 cars ablaze in France on New Year’s Eve*
By Pamela Geller - on January 2, 2016

It’s how they “celebrate” New Year’s Eve. Hey, it’s what they do. Obama say, “respect it!”

_“Over 800 cars set ablaze in France on New Year’s Eve,” The Daily Sabah, STRASBOURG, January 2, 2016:

A total of 804 vehicles were set aflame in all of France on New Year’s Eve, a 14.5 per cent decrease from the previous year, Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said on Twitter Friday.

The 2014-2015 celebrations saw 940 cars burned.

Burning automobiles as a way to ring in the new year has grown into a trend in recent years, with mostly young men using it as a form of protest.

The ministry said 622 people were taken into custody by French authorities over New Year’s, twice as many as a year before.

The New Year’s Eve celebrations took place amid a heavy police presence seven weeks after the November 13 terror attacks in Paris_​
Here's what her source, The Daily Sabah, published:

*Over 800 cars set ablaze in France on New Year's Eve*

A total of 804 vehicles were set aflame in all of France on New Year's Eve, a 14.5 per cent decrease from the previous year, *Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said on Twitter Friday*.

The 2014-2015 celebrations saw 940 cars burned.

Burning automobiles as a way to ring in the new year has grown into a trend in recent years, with mostly young men using it as a form of protest.

The ministry said 622 people were taken into custody by French authorities over New Year's, twice as many as a year before.

The New Year's Eve celebrations took place amid a heavy police presence seven weeks after the November 13 terror attacks in Paris.​
:yikes:

So, I think to myself, gee - I wonder what Cazeneuve tweeted? 

So I checked: *He didn't tweet anything.* 

He made no tweets between 30 December 2015 and 05 January 2016. The "Friday" mentioned in The Daily Sabah article was January 1st, the day prior to the publication of this story.

XX)

You keep on posting these whack-a-doodle stories, pal. It's mighty entertaining to watch....


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

I could probably put this in any of the political threads here in ehMac, but I thought this one would serve the purpose. And while I am not a Trump supporter, this was sent to me by an anti-Trump activist, I find the slam against him just as biased as the subject matter. No matter, the real issue today with politics is the public who is uninformed, lazy in their research, and biased in their information choices.....aside from only reading headlines and not the full story. It also would appear that truth is measured by either how many likes one gets on a FB posting or at least reduced to how big the number is in the little red dot in the notification icon. I won't need to post the dates here as you are well versed in the proper time frame and who was in where doing or not doing what....I weep for the future....enjoy


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The American politics thread would do just fine! But I see your point. Just ridiculous how they couldn't even bother to line up the events to realize Obama was not president during Katrina.. and then get into arguments about it because neither side realizes the premise is wrong.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Good for you!

Add one more to your short, single digit list. Make sure you bookmark it for easy retrieval & frequent future reference, like you have the others.

That you were nearly as diligent with your own posts, starting with those in the Alternative Energy thread...

As to the absence of Tweets, is it possible that one was deleted & it doesn't show? I don't know. I don't use Twitter.



CubaMark said:


> Blah, blah-blah, blah, blah-blah-blah...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Alexandre Bissonnette Charges In Quebec Mosque Shooting Do Not Include Terrorism*










A Canadian Muslim group says the decision not to charge the suspect in the Quebec City mosque shooting with terrorism highlights a double standard.

"There's no question that if a Muslim had walked into a church or a synagogue and shot up a bunch of people, that person would've been considered a terrorist by the Canadian public," Faisal Bhabha, legal counsel for the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM) told HuffPost Canada on Wednesday.

Earlier this week, Crown prosecutors announced they were bypassing a preliminary hearing and heading straight to trial for Alexandre Bissonnette, who is accused of fatally killing six worshippers in January.

The 27-year-old is now facing six counts of first-degree murder and six counts of attempted murder using a restricted firearm. Despite Prime Minister Justin Trudeau calling the shooting a "despicable act of terror" and Quebec provincial police treating it "as a terrorist act," Bissonette is facing no terrorism charges.

Prosecutor Thomas Jacques said the lack of terror-related charges was based on the evidence and laws the Crown had to work with.

"Pursuing terrorism charges against Mr. Bissonnette, though not likely necessary to secure a conviction and a lengthy sentence in this case, would have sent an important reassurance that Muslims are seen as equal victims of terror," Ihsaan Gardee, executive director of the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM) said in a statement.

(HuffPo)​


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Charging anyone with terrorism strikes me as daft. Charge them with murder or whatever act they actually committed.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*At the Quebec mosque shooting, this man risked his life to save others. Who will save him now?*










Six men died in January's attack on a Quebec City mosque, but Aymen Derbali barely survived after facing the gunman directly to draw fire away from others. He spent two months in a coma and will never walk again. Now, as he struggles to recover, his appeals for help starting a new life have gone unanswered.
(*Full story: *Globe & Mail)​


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_"Not Guilty" but found competent to stand trail. This should be interesting...._

*Alexandre Bissonnette, Quebec Mosque Shooting Suspect Pleads Not Guilty*
*Bissonnette faces six charges of first-degree murder and six of attempted murder.*


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_Bissonnette changed his mind. _

*Mosque shooting: Guilty verdict brings relief, but sense of loss remains profound* | Montreal Gazette


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

If there was any justice in Canada, he would be shot as mercilessly as those he shot.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*SINC:* _We are agreed._

Also - to top off this thread with some positive news....

*Aymen Derbali, paralyzed in Quebec City mosque shooting, receives $400K for new house*










Aymen Derbali was visibly emotional as he accepted a cheque for more than $400,000 on Saturday night.

After being left paralyzed from the chest down just over a year ago in a shooting at a Quebec City mosque, the father of three will never walk again.

But he will be able to live in an accessible home with his family thanks to a crowdfunding campaign launched in December by Toronto-based non-profit group DawaNet, which garnered $416,335 to help Derbali purchase a home adapted to his disability.

"Every second, I imagine myself playing with my children in the house," Derbali said. "This gives me strength."

He received the cheque in front of hundreds of community members in the very room where he was shot seven times, at the Islamic Cultural Centre of Quebec City.

"To be here after over a year of what happened, and to be part of something positive, something that Aymen can look forward to for his future with his family and kids… emotionally it was really heartwarming," said Tariq Syed, who worked with DawaNet on the campaign since day one.

(CBC)​


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

What a twisted worldview....


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_An interesting bit of evidence presented at Bissonnette's sentencing hearing...._

*Andy Riga, Montreal — Verified account*
*@andyriga* Apr 16
Evidence presented at Alexandre Bissonnette's sentencing hearing this morning includes a list of some of the Twitter accounts he was checking in the month before he killed six men at a Quebec City mosque.​


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

CubaMark said:


> _An interesting bit of evidence presented at Bissonnette's sentencing hearing...._


Not sure what you're getting at with the list but, assuming it's not some "polite" way to smear people, there are some interesting characters there.

Ben Shapiro - worth following, and his podcast is good for a social conservative perspective.

Tucker Carlson - informative show (including skepticism about Syria bombings), but it's not worth following his twitter.

Paul Joseph Watson - entertaining one-off videos, twitter is a mixed bag but often provocative.

Ann Coulter - funny on twitter, hit and miss elsewhere. 

Mike Cernovich - generally odd. Worth a try to see if you find him interesting.

Overall, if someone wanted to be exposed to a decent variety of "hot takes" on current events from a right wing and right-leaning perspective, the above are a good start.

The rest are a mix of unknowns (to me) or uninteresting.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

interesting milo yiannopoulos Never made the list.. lol 
either way i follow Milo, Ben, Tucker, Mike - does not mean i will shoot up anything. just more smearing of the right.. 
be honest with you CNN and their left are much more angrier. have you seen Como interview people he is disgusting and Don Lemon - race card comes out every 3 words from him.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I hear people who follow "Crooks and Liars" are maniacs.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

macfury said:


> i hear people who follow "crooks and liars" are maniacs.


Qed...


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

macintosh doctor said:


> interesting milo yiannopoulos Never made the list.. lol


It's a twitter list. He was banned.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMqZSxNgsE8[/ame]


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