# Lion. Are we there yet?



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Wanted to check on experiences with lion and using it as a work machine. I know there are lion fans who say it flies, but any developers (not apple specifically please) interactive, etc. finding lion a good os, no freezes beach balls that I've been hearing.

I use most of the adobe stuff, eclipse, various video tools, etc.


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## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

using 5.5 here.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I'm sticking with 10.6.x...probably forever.

Not happy with Apple's direction, at all.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Yeah but apple is insisting on lion only newer versions of Xcode. I'm seeing other apps lion only now too.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I'm happy for Apple's current success, but I think it came at the cost of alienating many long time (meaning old) Mac users. Most, I think, will adapt to whatever Apple throws at them, but a great number will abandon the platform, especially the pro users.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

i haven't upgraded my mac pro (where i do most of my work) to lion as of yet, but i have installed lion on my macbook pro.

There are a few issues with it, bit overall i enjoy the experience....at least for the majority of what i use my macbook pro for...which is mostly browsing and email. 

Still , overall i like Lion, but i'm still waiting for another release before i switch my mac pro to it.


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## Coriolis99 (Jun 20, 2011)

Works fine but I prefer Snow Leopard.

I'm a mac newbie... but even I can tell lion is terrible. I got a Macbook Air and had to spend a half hour to de-crapify Lion.

Haven't had to do that since my last windows laptop with all its bloatware.


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## spoonie (Nov 25, 2007)

SL on my mac pro (Logic works when using 32 bit plug-in bridge) - i've heard that in Lion, if it can't validate a plugin, it simply will not allow it to be activated. At all. That's unacceptable.

Using Lion on the MBP, no issues but i'm not really throwing too much at it (Logic Mainstage for live use).


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## zen.state (Nov 29, 2005)

My girlfriend runs Lion on her 2007 MacBook 2.0GHz and with 3GB RAM it certainly feels more sluggish than Snow Leopard. The impression I get from Lion is Apple wants to slowly turn even desktops into big ipads which doesn't excite me at all. 

I fully admit I am more oldschool than most Mac users (being one since 1991) and I still run all PowerPC hardware. I have no interest in one day dragging my fingers around like an ape on a desktop system. It doesn't suit the pro market at all which is Apple's most loyal customer base and the very people that kept the company alive in the lean 90's. 

My point to all this is that if you want a more standard OS X experience and performance then use SL but if you want the impractical bleeding edge of finger dragging type computing then try Lion.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I've tried Lion and refuse to use it for my daily work. It's completely counter-intuitive. I will probably become one of those types who will stay put for as long as possible on the best machine that runs Snow Leopard, just to avoid the crappification of the Apple user experience wrought by Lion.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Some fairly strong reactions here, one way or another. I was concerned about losing some of my favourite apps, but to be honest, AppleWorks is about the only one I miss having easy access to, and that was running pretty slow on Snow Leopard anyway. I can access AW if I need to by simply changing my startup disk to Snow Leopard which I Carbon Cloned to an external disk and the I still have access to all my Snow Leopard and earlier stuff. Kind of like the old days of dual-booting between OS9 and OSX. You have to re-orient yourself to the scrolling changes though.

I figured that rather than whine and moan about Lion's perceived flaws by some, I might as well embrace it, since all the cool syncing features I've gotten used to with MobileMe will no longer be around after June 30. It's like any major OS shift, and yes it's a pain in the arse at first, but whatever doesn't kill us first only makes us stronger. My Five and a half year old iMac is still quite peppy after all these years running Lion, and overall so far, so good. I even managed to get Logic Express happening in 32-bit mode without having to ante up yet for Logic Pro. And my ten year old Tascam US-428 hardware/DAW controller still works like a charm in Lion—the main thing I was worried about, actually.

For those who are afraid to take the plunge, I recommend CCCing your Snow Leopard drive before switching to Lion, and then start familiarizing with the new OS. It may take a while, and you're pooched a little bit if you're relying on MobileMe services right now come the end of June. Change sucks sometimes, but like Rafiki said: you can run from it, or you can learn from it.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

Macfury said:


> I've tried Lion and refuse to use it for my daily work. It's completely counter-intuitive. I will probably become one of those types who will stay put for as long as possible on the best machine that runs Snow Leopard, just to avoid the crappification of the Apple user experience wrought by Lion.


what do you find counter-intuitive?


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## zen.state (Nov 29, 2005)

re: the Darwin quote..

Change is only worth it if what you're changing to is better or evolved in some way. Not change for the sake of change. The iOS experience doesn't belong anywhere near Mac OS for laptops and desktops as it's a barley passable gimmick interface IMO. Most of it's popularity is the awe it inspires in simple minds. 

I'm not a simple minded ape.. I'm a human being that wants to compute without pathetic gimmicks getting in the way. Anyone who posts in the section called "Mac Masters" should get that.


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## okcomputer (Jul 18, 2005)

Using Lion on my 2011 MBP and iMac. MBP is my work machine, but I do a lot of work at home. 

CS 5.5 mostly - Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects, Premiere, and a bit of InDesign and Audition. Keynote and Pages every day. ScreenFlow weekly. iMovie, GarageBand, Aperture, and iPhoto quite a bit, too. 

No major issues, except for the wifi not reconnecting after sleep sometimes, but that seems fixed in 10.7.3 / iMac update. Haven't upgraded the MBP, still on .2. 

Love iCloud, PhotoStream, iTunes Match, full screen apps, and Mission Control.


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## Aceline (Feb 21, 2012)

Photoshop CS4


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

steviewhy said:


> Photoshop CS4 hangs with regularity if that's any help.


Ugh, stab me in the eyeball... I think it's going to be cheaper for me to start using two computers than it would be to upgrade all the Apps Lion will probably break on me.

Which means having to buy another one because my core duo can't run lion. Fun! XX)


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## zen.state (Nov 29, 2005)

I find CS3 the best overall to use as it runs perfectly on every OS from 10.5 - 10.7. I run it myself on 10.5 very well and a client of mine is getting by great with 3 on Lion.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Well, there it is, Apple's Ultimatum... iOS 5.1 is Xcode 4.3 which means Lion. Which means $1200 of new software which probably won't work in 10.8.

tptptptpXX)


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

zen.state said:


> I find CS3 the best overall to use as it runs perfectly on every OS from 10.5 - 10.7. I run it myself on 10.5 very well and a client of mine is getting by great with 3 on Lion.


This is good to know... I do have a copy of at least some of my cs3 software kicking around. Looks like Flash, Photoshop are the biggest offenders. Suppose I could muddle along with cs3 for a while longer. There seems to be some serious tom-foolery involved in getting Flex Builder 3 working on Lion... Which may be simpler than jumping (at this point) into Flashbuilder 4.6 for project compatability. Hmmmm... I definitely have to get this done before June when MobileMe bites it...


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

The more I use Lion, the more I dislike it. It has some neat ideas baked in like iCloud and Mission Control. Even Launchpad is not so bad, except for the seemingly random way it orders apps. But there are so many small bugs that drive me nuts. My Apple trackpad freezes every time I switch users, requiring a restart of the pad. FaceTime keeps muting my 3rd party camera (but iChat doesn't). The system is slow as hell, thrashing the disk hard and locking up for minutes at a time. I'm just tired of all the little cruft that has snuck in, new OS or not. Snow Leopard was fast and stable and polished -- I regret installing Lion and I'm too busy and nervous about trying to downgrade. 

Yes, I tried doing a clean install or whatever they call it now. Didn't help for long.


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## zen.state (Nov 29, 2005)

The issue with OS X since about 2007 is that Apple each year since then has put more and more resources into iOS development and out of OS X. The Mac sadly no longer really defines Apple. They seem to have gadget and gimmick priorities these days.

All the true Mac computer users that got Apple to the position of having extra resources to design phones and tablets are now pretty much forgotten and I wonder if by 2015 there will even be a finder anymore.


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

I think the Mac still defines Apple, otherwise Apple wouldn't be in business to begin with. I think what has happened is that the entire computing industry has slowed down over the years and there is no need to catch up to numbers like it was in the 90's and early 2000's, where every company was playing leapfrog on the processor speed etc. for that time period.

We are now looking at computers that barely go passed 3Ghz and I guess if we thought like we did 6 years ago maybe we should be at 64 Ghz in speed in 2012? :lmao: I'm not sure. The new number game is Quad core or Six or Eight or maybe 16 core systems in the future? Who knows? For now I don't see the competition flying ahead and killing off the Mac anytime soon.

Point is, since the computer industry as a whole isn't making those gigantic leaps in speed and playing the number games (like they use too), companies like Apple are able to branch off into other areas and make a ton of $$ doing so. 

We are in different times, I guess if you need to run 6+ year old software, then don't upgrade to Lion?  Use the tool that works, when it no longer works then upgrade 

I on the other hand, love Lion! I happen to think the scrolling method is brilliant and why wasn't I scrolling like this years ago? :lmao:


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MacGYVER said:


> *I think the Mac still defines Apple*....


Their balance sheet alone would prove this statement to be wrong... It really does not matter how you start a race, it matters how you finish it and the Mac is now pulling up the rear end of Apple. The iPad alone beat out all desktop and laptop combined total revenues in Q4 2011 and iPhone related revenues almost doubled Mac revenues. Of their total Q4 2011 revenues Macs made up only 22%.

Macs are fast approaching being "niche" products in Apple's own ecosystem.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

zen.state said:


> The issue with OS X since about 2007 is that Apple each year since then has put more and more resources into iOS development and out of OS X. The Mac sadly no longer really defines Apple. *They seem to have gadget and gimmick priorities these days.*
> 
> All the true Mac computer users that got Apple to the position of having extra resources to design phones and tablets are now pretty much forgotten and I wonder if by 2015 there will even be a finder anymore.


Mobile communications and entertainment are not gimmicks, they are what people want and it has made Apple the most valuable company on the planet... it is hard to argue with success. They aren't here to make us old timers happy they are here to be in business and make things that people want and at that they are doing supremely well.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

They declared that the war over the desktop was already lost. They're on to the next big thing. And that ain't desktops.

That's just how it is I guess.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> They declared that the war over the desktop was already lost. They're on to the next big thing. And that ain't desktops.
> 
> That's just how it is I guess.


Agreed...


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

Oh, can I add the stupid new Quicktime Player that keeps opening seemingly every video I have ever played and won't let me close them. Every single time I launch it. 

It's definitely not as polished as previous OS's; nor do I get the sense they care. Snow Leopard had, what, 8 point releases? I think we'll be lucky to get 2 with Lion before they shove Mountain Lion and a whole new pile of bugs at us.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Puccasaurus said:


> Oh, can I add the stupid new Quicktime Player that keeps opening seemingly every video I have ever played and won't let me close them. Every single time I launch it.


System Prefs > General: (Uncheck it.)


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

Lars said:


> System Prefs > General: (Uncheck it.)


Ah, I tried that. It's been unchecked from the start -- no good. But thanks for trying!


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I've heard this same complaint in a lot of places. would like to hear a solution that works.


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## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


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## zen.state (Nov 29, 2005)

screature said:


> Mobile communications and entertainment are not gimmicks, they are what people want and it has made Apple the most valuable company on the planet... it is hard to argue with success. They aren't here to make us old timers happy they are here to be in business and make things that people want and at that they are doing supremely well.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree because IMHO iOS is a barely passable interface. People are too caught up in dragging their fingers around or using the motion sensor. It's fine for consumers that just need to get basic everyday stuff done and have a little fun with a game or two but this has guided Apple almost totally off the Mac path. 

I guess as an oldschool tech and content creator I am used to controlling everything with some device in my hand which controls rather than just my hand itself. Give me a mouse or a drawing tablet any day over my hand. iOS seems amazing and advanced to most but to my mind it seems quite primitive. 

Also... remember that just because something is popular that doesn't necessarily mean it's fundamentally a good thing. Do we need to make a list of all the horrible but popular things that have existed within human history?


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Dennis Nedry said:


> If you're not already on 10.7, there's no reason to upgrade.
> 
> Just wait until 10.8. There are a lot of issues in 10.7 that haven't been addressed by 10.7.4 DP, but have been in 10.8 DP1/DP2. The same thing is going on with their developer tools- we're being told to wait until 10.8 and Xcode 4.4 (which will require 10.8 to run) for fixes.
> 
> ...


Didn't have a choice, projects needing to be done and deployed to 5.1 couldn't wait.

Installed on the first work machine... Not thrilled so far.
1) "CSSmanagerService required Java Runtime to continue, would you like to download?" Some nonsense to do with CS4...
2) iCloud prompt. Sorry, this is a work machine with many people using it. No no no no.
3) had to reinstall flash, okay I get it, it's not included but I was surprised I just got a blank screen on a flash window, no prompt, not indication what was wrong, and it was already installed on this machine... okay let me go hunt that down.
4) Quicktime X, whaaa????. Opened a movie, went fullscreen, quit and reopened. So back into fullscreen... sorta






so I hit escape to go out of fullscreen. Quit the app. Open it again. Now the video window is checked, but clicking on the video doesn't reopen it... It's disappeared... ??????? Had to quit and reopen it.
5) Fullscreen safari... wait... on three monitors that defaults to putting grey over the other two monitors and putting Safari on one screen... Why would I ever use this feature???
6) ejecting a USB key, the key no longer shows up as "unmounted" in disk utility, so you can mount it. What's up with that??
Not impressed so far after 20 minutes of use...


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2012)

An addendum ... with Lion + any type of software RAID (created in Lion even), striped, concatenated or mirrored and ... disk utility it unable to verify or repair the disks -- even when booted from another Lion install. This has been a "known issue" since Lion's release and it's still not been addressed. The even more frustrating part of it all is that if you do it manually from the command line it works fine. This is the epitome of Apple not addressing things that need to be addressed. It feels like they are saying "Oh, you use RAID. People do that?" This just smells like being absolutely lazy on Apple's part.

Also when using RAID as your main setup you cannot have a rescue partition (it's not supported), which also means that you can't do all of the nice things that they included with Lion's rescue partition, meaning no disk maintenance (not like disk utility works but even command line), no re-install without jumping through a lot of hoops, no internet based rescue/install. You also can't use FileVault (not that I do, but it's another one of those things that have fallen by the waywide with Lion and RAID setups).

Having just spent an entire evening jumping through hoops last night in order to try and do some simple drive maintenance and repair made me realize just how long these issues have been there and are still not addressed. I ended up doing a clean install of Lion onto a different drive. Seems like overkill in order to do some basic filesystem maintenance.

P.S. Single User mode is not a viable way to do much of this stuff either from what I've read. Lots of people have had some serious issues when trying to do disk repair in single user mode due to some changes with the way journalling is handled in Lion (single user mode is incapable of "replaying" changes if required and if you try to repair without doing so you're asking for trouble).


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

mguertin said:


> An addendum ... with Lion + any type of software RAID (created in Lion even), striped, concatenated or mirrored and ... disk utility it unable to verify or repair the disks -- even when booted from another Lion install. This has been a "known issue" since Lion's release and it's still not been addressed. The even more frustrating part of it all is that if you do it manually from the command line it works fine. This is the epitome of Apple not addressing things that need to be addressed. It feels like they are saying "Oh, you use RAID. People do that?" This just smells like being absolutely lazy on Apple's part.
> 
> Also when using RAID as your main setup you cannot have a rescue partition (it's not supported), which also means that you can't do all of the nice things that they included with Lion's rescue partition, meaning no disk maintenance (not like disk utility works but even command line), no re-install without jumping through a lot of hoops, no internet based rescue/install. You also can't use FileVault (not that I do, but it's another one of those things that have fallen by the waywide with Lion and RAID setups).
> 
> ...


OMG... :yikes: That is huge news and thanks for sharing mg... maybe the new "kitty" will take care of that... probably not as Apple has given up on Pro users (when was the last upgrade to the MP...?)... we are less and less important to their bottom line so nothing will change....

Let's see if MS can fill the gap seeing as the coin has flipped.... it used to be MS was all based on mass installations..... now now with iOS, MS is the laggard and may need to look at another market... like the Pro market.

I "grew up" with MS and so if they can meet my needs better I can easily go to them again...

It is like the saying, "What have you done for me lately?"... as a Pro user Apple has done very little indeed.

Que MCraig and his "all you need is an iMac" comment....

1,2,3,4....


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2012)

I could never go back to MS stuff ... having been a *nix geek for close to 20 years now there's just no way I could manage having to write "batch files" again :/


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Well, upgrading my personal work machine now... Wish me luck...


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## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

Good reminder, DN. I'm seriously considering reverting back on my personal machine and going that route.

One thing I will concede to Lion, the mail app works better than it ever had for me in any previous version of OS X, but I realize I also had an atypical amount of problems in previous OS's.


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