# Basement Flooring: Wisdom needed!



## Fink-Nottle

As we have a new baby coming soon we have decided our finish our basement. We're getting lots of conflicting advice on what to do with the floor, so any unbiased opinions here would be gratefully accepted. We own a semi-detached townhouse in Toronto. The basement is a mess but has no obvious moisture issues.

Originally our contractor recommended broadloom with a thick pad over the concrete. My wife wanted laminate but we were reluctant to add a wooden subfloor due to the expense and the loss of height. Although you can put laminate right over the concrete, it makes it more susceptible to moisture and cold to walk on in the winter. However, after doing some research I found a plastic membrane product called Delta-FL <http://www.deltams.com/deltafl/> which you can lay down, and then put the laminate right over. It cost 76 cents a square foot, or about $400 for our project, which is still within our budget.

Does anyone have any experience with this or similar products? Any recommendations, wisdom etc? Thanks!


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## mactrombone

I put laminate in our basement and used the Ikea products. They have a plastic barrier that you put down, then some type of fibre insulating material in a thin layer and then the laminate. We covered a roughly 10x15 foot room for around $750 four years ago. The floor still looks good and has held up really well albeit in a relatively low traffic area. No moisture problems and no problems with a slightly imperfect concrete floor. 

Good luck!


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## MACSPECTRUM

i woudl recommend against broadloom especially with a new child
the fumes that eminate from new broadloom can be highly influential on a child's respiratory system
i cannot even walk into a broadloom store with snezzing and gagging
i do not have any man made fibre broadloom in my home


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## Loafer

This is something I have been looking at for our TO home. Although our basement is lame because half of it is crawl space covered with plastic sheeting. So for the remainin 12' x 12' space I was looking into putting down a sub floor and then cheap Ikea laminate flooring. I don't think our concrete floor is flat enough to put the laminate straight down. But as it's a very small space the cost of the subfloor isn't really an issue.

I don't really have any input to give as I'm working out the same things...but I just wanted to let you know you're not the only one


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## MaxPower

I have some experience with flooring - carpet, laminate and tiles. As well, I'm on my way to becoming a seasoned father as well with one year under my belt.

That being said, If you like the look of wood laminate (floating floor) i would suggest that as your best bet. Basically you lay an under pad, similar to carpeting and then you lay your laminate. The Laminate helps reduce allergies your child may experience and you will be much happier with clean up due to all the spills, drool, vomit etc.


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## Chris

I used the Quick FL as an underlay beneath the plywood floor I was installing in my last house, and it worked just fine. There is also a product available at most home improvement stores where the underlay is bonded to OSB cut into 2 ft x 2 ft squares, with tongue and groove sides. I understand that these have been very successful, and greatly reduce any loss of head room. If you have any concerns with dampness, I'd put these down first, then cover with the finish of your choice (laminate, broadloom). They seem very simple to install.

A friend of mine installed a laminate floor in his basement almost two years ago, and it has stood up very well. He just put down the foam backer first, then the laminate. Took him a weekend to finish the project (it's a large basement) and he has had no problems since. Of course, he knew that he had a dry basement. He also reports that the floor feels warmer underfoot than the concrete did. It strikes me that almost any solution you go for will be an improvement. Good luck!


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## gordguide

It's a very good idea to have or install an anti-backup valve on your sewer line if you plan to finish the basement. Might lower your insurance cost as well.


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## thewitt

Did you know there are new 'all plastic' wood looking floors? Moisture isn't a concern.

I put pergo in my kitchen dinning area a couple of years ago. I'm on the bottom level of our strata building. And man... It can get cold. Even here in Vancouver. So 'something' under the flooring would really help.

Just a sheet of plastic helps with moisture, but if there is any substantial amount of water/flooding then it will come over the top of that.


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## gordguide

I've installed the laminate flooring but not in a basement. However, I do recall the instructions stated that a full coverage vapour barrier extending partly up the wall was mandatory for basement installations, and that the warranty was void if this was not done.


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## jlcinc

Delta-FL looks like a great product. Where do you get it in the TO area? I installed a laminate floor in the bath of my loft 2 years it still looks great. Go to the big box stores and check out the sales of flooring some good deals. I wouldn't want my kid crawling around a basement carpet the laminate just seems cleaner. It is so easy to install yourself but you will need kneepads.

John


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## PosterBoy

Laminate, and real wood floating floors, can be laid right over concrete as long as you use some kind of underlay. Look around and see what the various places offer. If you can afford it, some places sell 1/4" thick rubber mats which absord the most of your steps (ergo less noise) and insulate the best.

Second choice, get high desity foam. Most places sell a high density and a low density foam underlay product. Without a doubt, get the high density. It's a little more expensive, but it does a 100% better job.

There are a few cheaper products out there that arent so much foam as they are fom beads sandwiched between two layers of plastic. Avoid these. If you are looking at these, do yourself a favour and at least get low density foam.

For a basement, over concrete, though, your best bet for results + price is going to be the high density foam underlay. I'd recommend it even if it is a touch out of your budget.

For the flooring, I'd recommend a real woood floating floor over a laminate floating floor if you can afford it. It's a lot more expensive, but it just <i>feels</i> better in the room when you are done. It's warmer, and doesn't make so much of a racket when you drop something on it (go to Ikea and drop your keys on their demo laminate floor to get an idea what I mean).

On the downside, real wood is far more succeptible to damage than most decent laminate floors, and since you have kids on the way this is a major concern. I don't like Pergo flooring, but that is mostly because of all the lame designs they use. Last I checked, their stuff used Low Density Fibreboard (LDF) as a backing insead of Medium Density Fibreboard (MDF). For the love of jebus, make sure whatever you buy uses MDF and not LDF. You can tell because MDF looks like smooth brown paper, LDF loos like bits of wood squeezed together.

The Ikea flooring (Tundra, i think it's called) is pretty decent stuff, and for the price it's hard to beat. Personally, I like Haro brand floating floors (both Laminate and Hardwood) but AFAIK the only reseller in Canada is here in the west coast.

And if you're wondering, for a time I used to sell the stuff.


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## PosterBoy

Addenda:

Haro flooring can be puchased at a place called Danta in Nova Scotia, (http://www.dantra.com/)

Which is new since I worked in the industry. Used to be you could only get it from The Finishing Touch here in the GVA (http://www.thefinishingtouch.com/)


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## Pamela

cork. 


*make sure whatever you buy uses MDF and not LDF*

yeah, use MDF if you want to give your new born children cancer. MDF should be outlawed. The glue they use is HIGHLY carcinogenic.


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## bopeep

They have done studies in the UK regarding the formaldehyde concentration in MDF. 

The study in the UK concluded: 


> t would appear that there is now sufficient evidence available to conclude that working with MDF presents no more, or less, of a health hazard than working with natural woods.


http://www.safety.ed.ac.uk

Vaccines contain a higher concentration of formadehyde ! 

That said, if this IS a concern to you, look into whether there is formaldehyde free MDF. 


Cheers
Bo


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## Fink-Nottle

Wow... thanks for the awesome advice everyone! Very Helpful! I got far better advice here than I got on the 'Holmes on Homes' site... Mac people must be smarter I suppose! 

MACSPECTRUM... thank you so much for the heads up on the carpet fumes. I didn't know about that and I certainly don't want anything that might not be good for a baby. Same on the MDF... I will watch for that too.

I'm really just trying to decide now if I need an underfloor product like Delta-FL or Dricore or can get away with just some foam and the laminate.

Thanks again all... and any more opinions would be great!


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## kps

*A few thoughts.*

How old is the concrete floor and what condition is it in? This makes a big difference as to the best choice of flooring. How level it is, is the next consideration. If it was not leveled properly when poured, as is the case in many old homes (when basements were not considered "living space"), you may have a hard time laying down laminate strip flooring. The floor may feel spongy, you'll have gaps and with use, the joints may break. A new level subfloor should be built using 1x3 strapping (glued and Tapcon-ed) covered with a vapour barrier and 3/4" plywood screwed down on top, but you said that headroom is an issue. At best you'd lose 1 7/8" , but probably more in spots depending on how level the floor is. There are self leveling products available, but care must be taken in their use.

My suggestion is to consider ceramic tile. The nature of the installation itself will level out any small dips provided they are not too deep. If the original concrete is painted, that will be a problem for a tile installation.

Tile will be cold, but without a new subfloor so will the laminate. Area rugs will solve that.

This may not be in your budget, but a few years ago I broke up the old concrete floor in my 80+ yr old house and at some spots it was less than 1" thick. After we dug out the basement and replaced the old clay drain pipes with PVC, we poured a nice even 4" of new concrete and hand trawled it level. Cheap 12"x12" ceramic tile was installed after all the framing, plumbing, electrical, drywall and painting was completed. Wooden baseboards were the finishing touch. If I had more money back then, which I did not, I would have installed radiant heating imbedded in the concrete.


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## PosterBoy

The biggest danger from MDF is inhaling the sawdust when you cut it. It's very fine, and will get right down into your lungs. But a cheap mask solves the problem.


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## SkyHook

.


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## Pylonman

I work in the industry
The core of laminate flooring is HDF (High Density Fiberboard) not MDF. Almost all of quality laminate flooring sold in North America (Pergo, Snap, etc) is produced by manufacturers in Europe (Austria to be exact). Don't purchase Chinese-made laminate. I'm not bashing Chinese-made, it's just that the standards for laminate flooring is not high enough. As said by my works HO sales: 

_The HDF core of most Chinese flooring is of inconsistent density; hence the need for a thicker 8.3 mm core in order to attain stability. The Chinese green core is just regular grade HDF with a food colouring additive; it is not the equivilent of a low swell European core such as Aquastop (Quickstyle). Formaldehyde emissions of Chinese core meet minimum standards but are considerable higner that from European and North American made HDF._ 

An alternative suggestion, would be cork flooring: non allegenic, dust free, non static... perfect for computer rooms & offices, Thermal and acoustical insulation properties, Do-it-yourself installation. Floor “floats” does not require nailing down, prefinished with 4 coats of UV Urethane. An underlay is not required, but can be used. I used it in my spare bed/playroom and kitchen. It takes water quite well and is very comfortable to stand on for long periods od time. Windsor Plywood and Home depo does carry cork, under the brand Quickstyle Natur about $5.70 sq. ft.

Underlay: When I installed a engineered or floating floor in our home. I used an underlay called Quietwalk. Not only reduces noise, but has a vapour barrier on one side of the pad for added moisture protection from concrete floors. Comes in 100 Sq. ft. Roll @ $52.00 per roll
As mentioned earlier: Delta Subflor is another wise choice. It takes the chill out of those cold basement concrete slabs with subflor. Installs easily under your laminate, engineered wood, vinyl flooring or carpets. No glue or nails, 
panels interlock with a tongue & groove joint. Runs around $1.70 sq.ft.

Shameless plug,  http://www.windsorplywood.com


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## PosterBoy

Bah. HDF, I knew that. Stupid 5-years-out-of-the-industry.


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## Pamela

*
An alternative suggestion, would be cork flooring: non allegenic, dust free, non static... perfect for computer rooms & offices, Thermal and acoustical insulation properties, Do-it-yourself installation. Floor “floats” does not require nailing down, prefinished with 4 coats of UV Urethane. An underlay is not required, but can be used. I used it in my spare bed/playroom and kitchen. It takes water quite well and is very comfortable to stand on for long periods od time. Windsor Plywood and Home depo does carry cork, under the brand Quickstyle Natur about $5.70 sq. ft.*


See. I'm no dummy. This is what I said before. Cork is surprisingly beautiful and it comes in a million variations. They now have an easy tile system that you can do yourself and each piece snaps together just like laminate flooring.

We had it in the last architecture office I worked at. It also had heated floors. I used to walk around in my socks..it was so wonderful  

PERFECT for kids and family room type applications....heck...perfect for ANY application!


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## PosterBoy

Haro makes Cork flooring too. http://www.haro.com/html/kork.htm

They make just about every type of flooring that isn't nailed down, actually. They have a veneer floor product that is essentially the backing for a laminate floor, but with a real wood veneer on top instead.


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## thatcomputerguy

*laminate is the way to go*

i would definitely recommend the laminate flooring over the carpet. i've replaced all the carpeting in my house with laminates of various types and brands and all are standing up well to the abuse of kids and dogs and all the disgusting things they can do to a floor. (try and get baby puke out of a carpet - go on, i dare you).
if you are worried about the uneveness of the concrete, use the 2'x2' plywood panels with the plastic backing - these are available at all the home fix it up type stores now, and can easily be adjusted with spacers while you are installing for the areas where the floor is really uneven.
make sure you put a vapour barrier around the perimeter of the room extending up the wall about a foot and under the new subfloor about a foot as well. that way moisture will not be an issue. after that you can put down the laminate of your choice. the bamboo laminates are very nice looking, long wearing, and an excellent renewable resource. (grows liike a weed)


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## nxnw

my 2 cents worth:

"It's a very good idea to have or install an anti-backup valve on your sewer line if you plan to finish the basement. Might lower your insurance cost as well."

May a good idea, but I have heard of drains bursting from the pressure where there are backflow valves. That would be really bad.

In similar circumstances, I passed on laminate because I was apprehesive that the absorbtion of water by the MDF/HDF in the event of water trouble would destroy the floor. Although I don't like broadloom (not a stitch of it on my main or second floor) that's what I went with. Warm. 

Cork - seems like a good alternative.

Ceramic - freezing cold and very hard. Toddlers fall down all the time (and also drop things.

Linoleum - also a worthwhile alternative. There are some pretty cool looking onees available. Will also be cold, though.

Finally, re water: In the noble tradition of insurance companies, your policy will cover you for many things you don't need, but will not cover things you probably should have, UNLESS YOU ASK! A case in point: sewer backup. The coverage doesn't cost much, and I know way more people who have had sewer backup than not.


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## thatcomputerguy

Sorry but i don't agree.

don't be mistaken by thinking that having carpeting down instead of laminate is going to be a better if you had a sewer backup, because it is not. if you sewer backs up for any reason the area of the carpeting that get exposed should be removed entirely due to the fecal matter that would now be embedded in the carpeting. no amount of cleaning will get that out entirely, believe me. many people in a older area of london had this happen to them a couple of years ago and ALL needed new carpeting in the basement afterwards, and carpeting can very very difficult to match the dye lots so you end up replacing all of a room, no just a small part.

don't get me wrong, laminate will not fair much better, it will need replacing too. but you can't plan for all scenarios and possible problems. if you want to do that. paint and seal the concrete, otherwise be prepared for the worst should you ever have a sewer backup. you have to go with what you likes the looks and function of. i still recommend dri-core and then laminate flooring.


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## nxnw

thatcomputerguy said:


> don't be mistaken by thinking that having carpeting down instead of laminate is going to be a better if you had a sewer backup, because it is not. if you sewer backs up for any reason the area of the carpeting that get exposed should be removed entirely due to the fecal matter that would now be embedded in the carpeting. no amount of cleaning will get that out entirely, believe me. ...
> 
> don't get me wrong, laminate will not fair much better, it will need replacing too. but you can't plan for all scenarios and possible problems....


I did not mean to suggest that carpeting will survive sewer backup better than laminate. My advice was to make sure you are insured for sewer backup, as it is not standard coverage. I do believe that carpeting will survive water better than laminate, however, and that it's much warmer on a basement floor.


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