# Jobs Blasts Unions



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

Apple cofounder and CEO Steve Jobs on Friday spared no words in criticizing the state of public schools and the teacher unions, saying that schools were never likely to improve until principals could fire bad teachers.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/02/16/jobs.dell.share.stage/

Can't say I disagree with him. :clap:


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

I think Jobs should stick to what he knows and save his criticisms for dinner parties and the water cooler.

Criticism without offering viable solutions is useless IMHO.

Bring on the long drawn out debate....


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## Jeepdude (Mar 3, 2005)

mrjimmy said:


> I think Jobs should stick to what he knows and save his criticisms for dinner parties and the water cooler.
> 
> Criticism without offering viable solutions is useless IMHO.
> 
> Bring on the long drawn out debate....


Anyone in business knows what unions are all about. They create adversarial environments and protect the underperformers. 

He's bang on with his criticism--whether he's talking about private sector or public sector unions.

I think he's perfectly qualified to share his thoughts on something all business people know much about.


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

I tend to think Jobs has some insight into modern union dynamics in North America. Criticism hurts. Particularly when it may be valid.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Having had the misfortune to have to deal with a union shop once, Jobs is right on the money and entitled to an honest, and quite truthful, opinion. They no longer serve a useful purpose other than to entrench the underachievers long term.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Unions do not exist just to be the thorn in the side of the 'business man'. 

They also have yet to outlive their purpose.

Jobs does nothing by criticizing without offering us some kind of solution or insight. All he is doing is taking a potshot. Give us some facts Mr. Jobs.

Also what he is doing is trying to eliminate books in schools. Is this the way we want to future to head?

There are a few union related threads floating around that we could refer back to.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Michael Dell's (big businessman, big company) take:



> Dell, who recently took back the reins as CEO of Dell, responded that unions were created because "the employer was treating his employees unfairly and that was not good.
> 
> "So now you have these enterprises where they take good care of their people. The employees won, they do really well and succeed."
> 
> The report says Dell also blamed problems in public schools on the lack of a competitive job market for principals.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

I have done a fair bit of work inspecting varoius industrial and commercial facilities (100's). It doesn't take 10 minutes to see which places are run by unions and which ones aren't. And my observations have nothing to do with productivity or what they are doing. I can tell just by observing their attitudes and personalities. 

I find union people just have an overall negative energy about them. 

My wife is a teacher so I get to see some of the union dynamics that go on there. Most young teachers don't seem to support their unions. Rather, it's the teachers in their 40's and 50's. I think it is a generational thing rather than an age thing.

I predict that in 10 to 20 years, you will start to see many teacher unions dissolve. All governments have to do is make joining a union optional.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

The usual problem in a union environment is bad managers. Bad teachers don't have "Job(s) for life." They have bad managers who are unable to either make them better teachers or do the work properly to have them fired. And so it is often when unions are blamed for poor workers. There is almost always a way to deal with them, it's just too much "work" for their managers and employers.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Vandave said:


> All governments have to do is make joining a union optional.


That is one basic freedom that does not exist in this country and should. Bring on freedom of choice and watch unions die.


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## mclenaghan (Sep 27, 2002)

As a teacher I do think that there are good and bad sides to having the unions (federations). The teachers started that way maybe they should go back to that mind set. 

In Ontario it was Mr. Harris et al. that really made the unions out of the federations. When he removed the administration out of the unions his vision was to but business people on those positions rather then educators. I don't think I would want my bank run by someone who did not understanding banking or other business where the management has not concept of what it is really like in the classroom.

I would agree that maybe it is both sides, the teachers and the school boards who need to work together to ensure that teachers are at their best and striving to improve thier practice to better facillitate the education of the students.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

HowEver said:


> The usual problem in a union environment is bad managers. Bad teachers don't have "Job(s) for life." They have bad managers who are unable to either make them better teachers or do the work properly to have them fired. And so it is often when unions are blamed for poor workers. There is almost always a way to deal with them, it's just too much "work" for their managers and employers.


Absolutely. Unfortunately the unionized workers are always the most visible and therefore easily targeted. 

And it's true. Job for life is the propaganda spread by union haters and nay sayers. There is in fact no such thing. There are mechanisms in place to block random firings as you see in non unionized situations. As However says, bad managers do not know how to do the work properly to get them fired.


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

Jeepdude said:


> Anyone in business knows what unions are all about. They create adversarial environments and protect the underperformers.


I've been saying this for years, having gone through a labour dispute at a young age. My experience is in the private sector. I feel that the union protects the lazy and favours the senior employees who have no heart, no passion and don't care. At the same time they hold back the young up-and-comers and prevent them from gains in the organiation. Judging your worth by how long you've been there is absurd, expecially when someone 20 yrs younger has 10 times more education and experience in a particular field.

D


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## apple4life (May 6, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> I think Jobs should stick to what he knows and save his criticisms for dinner parties and the water cooler.


Perfect. Well said, sir


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## jhollington (Jan 29, 2007)

Vandave said:


> My wife is a teacher so I get to see some of the union dynamics that go on there. Most young teachers don't seem to support their unions. Rather, it's the teachers in their 40's and 50's. I think it is a generational thing rather than an age thing.


My wife is also a secondary school teacher, and I would tend to agree with the above statement based on her own observations and experiences.

She's quite lucky to have joined the teaching profession just after the last bout of strikes, but the reality in Ontario is that the union position has done more harm to the reputation of the teaching profession than good. I honestly think that the majority of the negative attitudes that teachers now get from parents and students is based on the bout of strikes of the late nineties. Whether justified or not, they became their own worst enemies in that regard, and certainly in the last few strikes, the union's stance and decisions seldom truly represented the position of the rank-and-file teachers.

The danger, ultimately, is that the largest unions become self-perpetuating organizations that spend more time doing things to justify their own existence than actually helping their membership.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Our daughter is a member of the teachers union and is forced to pay hundreds of dollars monthly towards the retirement fund to "catch up" due to the strikes of a few years back. She is a second year member. No members with seniority are assessed this dreadful amount.

My wife is a member of the nurses union. She has never gone on strike as she believes the oath she took was to assist the sick. She is not the most popular member if you get my drift.

Neither would belong if they had a choice.

The public has zero respect for either union due to past strikes.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Unions, IMHO, are completely self-serving, political and aren't performing the same function they were intended to do. There are a lot of wastes of space who breeze through their "career" because unions make it difficult for employers to discard the deadwood.

There's a old school "graphic designer" at Treasury Board who I've met. His sole job is to make graphs in Adobe Illustrator--and that's it. He absolutely hated the notion of moving to computers for graphic design twenty-plus years ago and has fought it every single day with complete apathy and contempt. They can't fire him, so they just let him sit in his cubicle drawing a graph or two a week until he retires next year or so. And then when he retires he'll get a nice pension where he'll probably make about 65-70k a year for being an incompetent suck-hole.

Actually, scratch that... unions ARE good. They keep useless people from dying of hunger. That's a good thing. Right?

Right?

:lmao:


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## MattGrass (Jan 21, 2006)

As someone who is currently in the BC Teachers Fed and previously in the IWA from the sawmill industry, I can see that unions definately need to be revamped and improved upon. Ultimately they should be political in that they lobby for students/teacher to look for the best possible learning situations. In BC, we have according to the government only 80 classrooms this year with more than 32 students. Last year we had 650? So, the advocacy brought about by the union was a good thing for me as a teacher and my students. 

The problem, we often see inflated wages in some unions. I was paid $25/hr in the sawmills for some shifts when all I did was sweep sawdust and wander around with nothing to do. Thats kinda lame for sure. But, you also have a generation of people working in unions, making a livable wage that drives the economy. These people pay alot in taxes etc and support our way of life. As a teacher, I have 6 years of college/university and I feel that I make a huge difference in many kids lives. Unfortunately, If there were not unions, I would bet money that schools would be runs as corporate bodies.

Schools in affluent areas would be able to offer younger, energetic teachers who go to work to do their best for a livable wage that reflects the work they do. Other areas would get the opposite. Economics and social pressures would create a multi tiered system of education that would be a disservice to people like me when I was a kid. I went to a tough elementary school with a large Aboriginal/Vietnamese community. The white kids that went there came from lower blue collar workers like my family but we had good teachers that cared and I feel we had a level of education that was comparable to others in the school district because of unions in part. Unions allow for teachers to have prosperous careers. They also attract teacher to public schools. 

If we were de-unionized and I could either take a pay cut and stay at the rural school I work at now or apply for higher paying work in a private school for kids from more affluent backgrounds, I would have to leave based solely on my own families financial needs. Luckily, I am paid a fair wage for the work I do and I enjoy it immensely. Could our union be changed for the better, obviously. Same as government/corporations everywhere. Common sense should rule the day.

My ramble for the day...


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

But don't they freely receive the benefits and privileges that their union people fight for? Or do they refuse the vacation days, wage hikes, healthcare, sick time, seniority perks, hiring preferences and the rest? Do they refuse some of those things or all of them?




SINC said:


> Our daughter is a member of the teachers union and is forced to pay hundreds of dollars monthly towards the retirement fund to "catch up" due to the strikes of a few years back. She is a second year member. No members with seniority are assessed this dreadful amount.
> 
> My wife is a member of the nurses union. She has never gone on strike as she believes the oath she took was to assist the sick. She is not the most popular member if you get my drift.
> 
> ...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

HowEver said:


> But don't they freely receive the benefits and privileges that their union people fight for? Or do they refuse the vacation days, wage hikes, healthcare, sick time, seniority perks, hiring preferences and the rest? Do they refuse some of those things or all of them?


Nice try to derail the situation Howy, but they are both so low on the seniority scale that my wife had to take vacation pay, not a vacation because management sets such strict standards for when you can go and how many can be off at one time that she could not get more than five vacation days last year. And as everyone knows, teachers get all summer off so it's a moot point. Hiring prefs? Ha, my daughter waited 7 long years of being bumped off job apps by senior teachers during layoffs in Alberta before she could even become a teacher despite a five year university program that cost me a fortune. Those years waiting were spent in pre-school at $12 an hour. Any way you cut it, unions suck.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I have been a member of three teachers unions (two in New York State and one in Georgia) for 4 years. I have also been a member of a union here at Memorial for since we unionized back in Feb. 1996 (before then, we were members of a non-unionized faculty association). I was/am forced to be in a teacher's union and forced to be in Memorial's faculty association. In my 34 years as an educator, I have been on-strike for two weeks (I voted against the strike).

While I believe that there were excellent reasons for unions in the late 19th and early 20th century, and a need for them during the Depression, I see their need fading. Sadly, many unions do protect the worker who does his/her job poorly from being fired. I am for merit pay for the effective teacher, and want poor teachers to be shown the door.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

HowEver said:


> But don't they freely receive the benefits and privileges that their union people fight for? Or do they refuse the vacation days, wage hikes, healthcare, sick time, seniority perks, hiring preferences and the rest? Do they refuse some of those things or all of them?


My wife is a nurse in Oakville, they receive all of these things and there is no union, they've actually turned down the chance several times to form a union. With the amount of jobs in healthcare there really is no job security for unions to protect, their useless and outdated.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

the creation of unions is a symptom of bad management / owners at a company

treat people badly and the idea of a union sounds good
treat them well and they don't want to dump "hundreds of dollars" via union dues

look at toyota (if memory serves) , a non unionized auto plant in ontario vs. unionized ford and GM plants

old north american management / ownership styles usually treat employees like dirt citing; "shareholders" and "it's just business"

rarely do high end mgmt / ceo types get dumped without an absurdly large severance package and at that time, somehow the needs of the "shareholders" are suddenly not that important

companies create environments where employees do or do not want to join a union

like the fram oil filter guy says; "pay me now or pay me later"


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

If you need another example of the demented mentality of unions, look no further than Buzz Hargrove.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/n...=7dc1cfec-84f9-4f72-af56-198fb7d7240a&k=80154


> Hargrove expressed frustration that he can't get a meeting with the prime minister to discuss the Canadian automotive industry's problems, including what he calls unfair trade practices.


It's not unfair trade practices Buzz. It's about the Big Three being clueless about what the market wants. Wake up!


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Jobs didn't provide the comments in hopes of making a change. He was explaining why Apple is not "seriously" going after the education market. As far as he is concerned, putting an Apple computer in a classroom is a wasted effort and, in the end, will backfire on Apple. He figures that putting any computer in there is a waste of effort and funding and that the critics will look poorly on the endeavor and blame the computer companies (rather than the administration and teachers).

Personally, I don't agree with his assesment on the benefit. The students will eventually be consumers who will buy what they know whether they like it or not. Even if they see the downside of Windows systems, they will buy what they know and maybe eventually switch.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> I am for merit pay for the effective teacher, and want poor teachers to be shown the door.


It always bothered me that the great teachers got the same pay (purely based on age) as the horrid ones. It was such a warped system, and completely unsurprising that there are lots of bad teachers turning a lot of kids off of school. 

Now, as a taxpayer, I would be happy to pay for a system that rewarded top teachers with well over $100k if that same system could turf the useless (worse than useless, if you consider a kids interest in learning) ones and cap salaries (after inflation) when teachers stop getting better instead of being entitled to a raise just for getting older.


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## jhollington (Jan 29, 2007)

The problem is that this is a complex issue to actually _implement_.... It would require a fair and impartial review/assessment process that could be used to effectively determine the merit and value of a teacher, and the politics and process of designing such a system would probably take years by the time the committees, government and unions got through with it.

Of course, the implementation of the new TPA (Teacher Performance Assessments) in Ontario is a theoretical step in the right direction, although it's difficult to say of what practical use that actually is just yet, other than being yet another "process" for overworked school administrators to have to deal with. Right now the whole thing feels more like a make-work project than anything else, particularly because there have been few demonstrable _consequences_ to receiving an unsatisfactory TPA, and because the whole process focuses on _new_ teachers, rather than addressing the existing problems with the older ones.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I think a throughly revamped TPA with real teeth would be worth the initial expenditure, but for the sake of fairness we'd also need a TPA II (for the trustees, natch).


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

In a strange union story:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2007/01/31/migrant-workers.html


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

"Martinez and the other workers who signed statements accused the UFCW of telling them the union would provide them with a lawyer for three of their co-workers, who were arrested in connection with a sexual assault and the assault of a police officer while the workers were off duty.

"On that basis, these 43 individuals say they signed union cards," said Winnipeg lawyer Paul Edwards, who represents the 43 Mexican workers. "They say if not for that commitment, they would not have signed the union card."

Just one more example of the weak minds and strong backs in unions who bully those they want as members, both before and after joining.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

SINC said:


> "Martinez and the other workers who signed statements accused the UFCW of telling them the union would provide them with a lawyer for three of their co-workers, who were arrested in connection with a sexual assault and the assault of a police officer while the workers were off duty.
> 
> "On that basis, these 43 individuals say they signed union cards," said Winnipeg lawyer Paul Edwards, who represents the 43 Mexican workers. "They say if not for that commitment, they would not have signed the union card."
> 
> Just one more example of the weak minds and strong backs in unions who bully those they want as members, both before and after joining.


How do you know they are not being intimidated by management? It certainly has worked for Wal Mart and many others. _Oh yes that's right, it's the unions that are always the villians...
_


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

mrjimmy said:


> How do you know they are not being intimidated by management? It certainly has worked for Wal Mart and many others. _Oh yes that's right, it's the unions that are always the villians...
> _


Could be management. But don't fall into the trap of it always being management that's the villains (I'm not sure if you have). Unions do plenty of stupid things too.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Beej, I am also for a recertification of teachers every 5-7 years, along with a longer school year. These are just two more reasons why many in the teacher's union here in NL want me to keep quiet. Still, I am VERY vocal in support of effective teachers.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Beej said:


> But don't fall into the trap of it always being management that's the villains


I haven't.



Beej said:


> Unions do plenty of stupid things too.


I agree.

I understand the quest of many unions to 'empire build'. But I think it's *vital* for everyone to weigh each individual case as opposed to painting with the wide villianous brush.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Jobs was not making a comment directed at Unions or the Trade Union Movement.
He was referring to the state of Public Schools in the US, which is a vastly different environment than in Canada. Not that that will help him.

One rather glaring difference is you do not need any qualifications as a teacher to teach in most US public schools and virtually all US private schools; in fact it's rare to find a school in the US that has a teaching staff that consists of nothing but those with B.Ed's or higher. Some have only a token number of degreed educators, and zero is not unheard of. In Canada (at least in Saskatchewan), no B.Ed, no job.

Right there, you have a situation where Canadian Teachers Unions would probably agree with Jobs; that non-degreed teachers shouldn't be teaching; trouble is they can't stop it in most states. Thus, a rather militant stance over tenure and job security with those who have earned a degree in the US, which is reflected in the issues that prompted him to speak out in the first place.

His comments, echoed by Michael Dell, who shared the podium with Jobs, were specifically directed at some rather serious problems with schooling in the US. But, he's sometimes not so bright when it comes to politics, as anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of Apple history would tell you.

Put simply, the guy's an Asshole who gets things done, rubbing some people the wrong way along the way. As long as he succeeds, lots of people will tolerate him, and I'm one of them. After all, that's practically the job description of a CEO. It's not in the job description of a politician, or anyone who even remotely expects to be an activist for anything where you have to build a grassroots consensus.

Against my better judgement, I'm going to try to explain what he might have meant.

In most counties of the US the school board is the only area where individual citizens are active in any way in local politics, and they are, without a doubt, the most virulently politicized and partisan forums in almost any American city or town. Because of that, Unions have actively worked to protect teachers from the overzealous whims of the local board, who themselves are driven by a fear or need for re-election.

Teachers are fired, or attempts are made to fire them, for all kinds of reasons in the US that often have nothing to do with quality of education or their work, based on the ill-informed opinion of some gaggle of parents as to what a "proper" education consists of, or a politically motivated group with an axe to grind. It's hardly unheard of for US teachers to be attacked for teaching what we know to be properly part of the curriculum.

Teachers should be held to a high standard of behaviour, there's no doubt. But, in the US, teachers are held to a standard that they don't even expect their church leaders to uphold. No matter what you did, in America it's far easier to be forgiven, and not incidentally to keep your job, if you're the Preacher than it is if you're the Teacher.

I think in Canada we tend to expect the same standard of behaviour from both, along with the Police and at least some of our Coaches.

An inevitable result of that will naturally be a militant approach by the Teachers Union to confronting schools when an issue with a teacher arises. It won't matter if there is merit or not when power and precedence is at stake; the Union will find itself compelled to vigourously fight any attempt to remove a teacher or risk losing the battles it does care about. This is hardly surprising.

Perhaps it is a problem with the state of Education in the US, and perhaps it isn't. What I do know is that Education is one area where not only do you not want to go, it's an area where there is no consistency from county to county, let alone state to state, where your comments in one town almost certainly won't apply perfectly to another, and where thousands of Americans have made careers based on nothing more than fighting about Education, just like, and it's probably no coincidence, schoolchildren. I say leave it to the experts; they seem to like it best anyway.

Why anyone asked Steve to say anything at all, and why he agreed, is beyond me. There is no upside to him speaking out on the subject no matter what his topic or position. There are thousands of highly motivated partisan people who react like Pit Bulls to anyone opposed to their position on the subject, and there are thousands of technology industry people who care not a whit about Education but certainly know that they can make a dollar if Steve pisses off someone whose job it is to periodically tender for one computer, or three thousand computers.

Perhaps the bigger question is a nagging doubt that's beginning to sneak around my subconcious. The DRM letter? Well, maybe. The iPhone? Hey, I could be wrong, but the last Keynote left me with an uneasy feeling. And now this, an ill-advised attack on an important segment of Apple's constituency.

Methinks Steve should get back to instilling his particular mix of dread and bravado in those around him, rather than making us wonder if he's gone bonkers. He's gotta be crazy at some level; every creative person is. I just hope he keeps his ego in check, at whatever lofty level that works for him as compared to us mere mortals.

If you want to speak to someone who knows something about education, talk to Woz.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I suspect these kind of issues are just indicative of the need for change in educational models as society goes post industrial and the internet turns education on it's head.

Be interested to see what other models are brewing around the planet.

The internet is providing "just in time" knowledge. To a large degree it has made libraries obsolete and the school systems are one of the few remaining bastions of the 50s centralized, top down, cookie cutter citizens institutions.

While I believe whole heartedly in a common ground curriculum for all citizens that is mandatory up to the age 16, I do not believe the current structure is sustainable for a variety of reasons.

I think Dr. G is on the leading edge of change that will be far more pervasive but be damned if I can see how to get there 

Seems there are a lot of arguments here about fixing a system that is terminally broken.

Time to get outside the box literally.


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## jhollington (Jan 29, 2007)

There's a good book by Michael W. Apple (ironic name for this forum  ), called _Ideology and the Curriculum_ that goes into great detail about the current "Systems Management" approach to education, and how it's failing to meet the needs of a modern society. His views are a bit more neo-marxist than I tend to prefer, but he makes some very good points, and it's a good read for anybody who is interested in the topic.

Unfortunately, it's getting these perceptions adopted by those who are actually designing the curriculum and the educational systems that is the most inflexible portion of the process.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You are right it's an embedded set of institutions and very difficult to move.

Because a common curriculum is so critical in many minds - horrid inefficiencies are tolerated for that cause alone.


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## Dr. N (Mar 12, 2004)

Dr.G. said:



> Beej, I am also for a recertification of teachers every 5-7 years, along with a longer school year. These are just two more reasons why many in the teacher's union here in NL want me to keep quiet. Still, I am VERY vocal in support of effective teachers.


How can you argue for a longer school year on the basis of what you do? Are you in a Canadian school classroom as a teacher or a student bumping shoulder to shoulder with hundreds of people most days of the year, year after year? It is not only teachers who may look fondly to the summer, it is also the students. There is much too learn and enjoy outside of the classroom, especially in the summer with the end of the Canadian winters. We cannot all afford a winter holiday to warmer climates.

And about re-certification, teachers in Alberta face yearly evaluations. Re-certification would cost far too much of the tax payers dollars; dollars which could be better spent on lowering class size and bringing more teachers into classrooms.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dr. N said:


> And about re-certification, teachers in Alberta face yearly evaluations.


Truth be known it is more aptly described as an annual "rubber stamping". Seniority rules the process.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> I suspect these kind of issues are just indicative of the need for change in educational models as society goes post industrial and the internet turns education on it's head.
> 
> Be interested to see what other models are brewing around the planet./QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Some form of accreditation will be needed. It's a valuable signal to employers. That said, looking at current systems, there's very little to the whole thing. In some courses, maybe two tests. In others, some lab work and tests. Maybe a group project. There is not much reason to require most of the rest for those who don't want it. At younger ages, interaction is needed, but that doesn't necessarily mean a teacher in class for every class. It means supervised activities. The "book-learning" could still be electronically (one teacher, many more students). 

Many options open up but this kind of change will always be opposed with good ol' comparison to perfection. New idea A is flawed...don't change!


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## Dr. N (Mar 12, 2004)

SINC said:


> Truth be known it is more aptly described as an annual "rubber stamping". Seniority rules the process.


In any school, in any classroom, in any year there a host of ways that both teachers and students are evaluated. There are a tests, essays, group presentations; there are discipline and truency issues, mean scores, excellence scores etc... A rubber stamp simply will not do..... "The last man standing" ---those with seniority--may be there because they are great at what they do.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

VanD - indeed MIT is doing a worldclass service to humanity by opening up those course materials. :clap:

Accreditation is another issue entirely and if you look at distance learning MBAs I think we begin to see some part of the solution.

I also think co-op programs where the line between academia and "real world" starts to stop being a barrier and start becoming "useful" exchange is in need of greater effort.

Let's face it - few students in secondary ed spend much time in class.

We ( larger WE first worlders ) are up against several billion other humans who want the lifestyle we enjoy and the competitive pressures of that drive is now being felt.

Canada is softening that impact by inviting students and entrepreneurs from around the world to join our society.

Education tho in my mind is mired to a large degree in 1950s - insulated from the global changes and competitive pressures that the rest of society and wage earners face.

To a point, that's okay as an educated workforce is invaluable ( one of Ontario's strengths).
It's where that point of inefficiency and "entitlement" comes that is hard to handle.

Harris rightly recognised there were problems but caused more than he cured mostly by his methods and ideology.

Still the shake up was overdue as it has been for power generation in Ontario.

The trick is to walk the line with needed reform while not forming battlelines.

Education is NOT a business but can benefit from certain aspects of ROI.

If anything there needs to be flexibility built into educational systems ( I see MUNs distance learning as exemplary ) so that a largely immigrant Toronto school system is served well and differently than say a rural Ontario or small town Ontario educational milieu.

Cookie cutter edu should be limited to core curriculum then a wide range of needs accommodated outside that.

Easy to say, not so easy to do.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dr. N said:


> "The last man standing" ---those with seniority--may be there because they are great at what they do.


That's exactly my point, they _all are still there_ but I doubt they are all _great._


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## fuzzyface (Oct 17, 2006)

I think there's a little more to what Jobs is saying than meets the eye. Sure, he says that bad teachers need to be fired; using bad teachers as scapegoats for all that ails US schools. But I think what really deserves examination is Jobs idea about ditching textbooks for a central database of information - with the "best minds" contributing. I think what's really at play is the privatization of education. Who might object to that kind of privatization? Unions, for starters... Job's has created controversy to draw attention to his idea! 
Who'll service the database? Who'll pay for it? Who owns it? Who contributes; how; what? Health care in the states is privatized, and not too many people are happy about how HMO's operate. Education is next on the list, and it makes sense that companies like Dell and Apple want in on the game. Computers + Database (and no textbooks) = a complete dependence on I.T. Computers, in that evironment, are no longer an optional purchase. For that matter, neither would a subscription to such a database.
My 2 cents...


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## Dr. N (Mar 12, 2004)

SINC said:


> That's exactly my point, they _all are still there_ but I doubt they are all _great._


In every contract in Alberta, the jurisdiction has the right to terminate contract with 30 days noticed, as does the teacher have the right, if they find the jurisdiction incompetent, or students impossible to work with, to resign with 30 days notice. Many teachers leave the profession in the first five years of their career for all sorts of reasons. One of the reasons is the shear difficulty of the job. The ones who remain, just may be there because they are superior. In our society there exists a huge disregard for teachers and education in general. There is something of a "baptism by fire" for the teacher which exists most prominently in the beginning of one's career, but still, it remains a part of each teaching day for all teachers because of the tremendous demands put upon them. You even made the allusion to the factory objective of "rubber stamping". What am I to respond? It is so common and cliche to blame the teachers who remain and to assume that someone else is entitled to their job. Hey, let's all listen to stevie j; He is smart. He has a lot of money. He can tell us what needs to be done with his computers and our textbooks.


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

Dr.G. said:


> Beej, I am also for a recertification of teachers every 5-7 years, along with a longer school year. These are just two more reasons why many in the teacher's union here in NL want me to keep quiet. Still, I am VERY vocal in support of effective teachers.


Dr. G you have no idea how much a full school year would hurt people. The break is there for a reason, so we can take a break off of school and enjoy the summer while it lasts.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mneub said:


> Dr. G you have no idea how much a full school year would hurt people. The break is there for a reason, so we can take a break off of school and enjoy the summer while it lasts.


Dr. G. and many others here know different. It's time you joined the real world where no one "gets the summer off" to enjoy it. Best I ever got in my whole life of 45 years in the work force was three weeks off at any one time.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

mneub, my year-round school year would have the month of July off, a week around Labor Day off, a three-week vacation period around Christmas and Easter, and then just the normal holiday days (e.g., Remembrance Day). This way, there is no wasting of Sept. trying to get students back up to speed to review what they have lost over the summer break of 2 1/2 months. Teachers would still have the advantage of being off when their children were off for holidays.


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

SINC said:


> Dr. G. and many others here know different. It's time you joined the real world where no one "gets the summer off" to enjoy it. Best I ever got in my whole life of 45 years in the work force was three weeks off at any one time.


Well that's too bad for you that you have these regrets. We had a great holiday seeing a multicultural country and learning all across the country. People should realize that spending time with their kids actually has benefits! Maybe if there was more interaction we would have less school shootings. I have been in the real world as well. Why would you assume that I haven't? I have delivered a weekly newspaper. How would you like it if you didn't have summer time when you were a kid? What ludicrous stupidity that you people propose!



Dr.G. said:


> mneub, my year-round school year would have the month of July off, a week around Labor Day off, a three-week vacation period around Christmas and Easter, and then just the normal holiday days (e.g., Remembrance Day). This way, there is no wasting of Sept. trying to get students back up to speed to review what they have lost over the summer break of 2 1/2 months. Teachers would still have the advantage of being off when their children were off for holidays.


That's a fallacy that we need September to review. That's an ill-informed process that you believe we all need. I am really sick of review and don't need it. I know many others feel the same.




What ludicrous stupidity that you people propose; it seems that you want a summer daycare to look after your own children.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

So students and teachers are somehow "exempt" from the real world??

Gee can I have the summer off too??

I've travelled all over the world with my kids without the summer off.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mneub said:


> Well that's too bad for you that you have these regrets. We had a great holiday seeing a multicultual country and learning all across the country. People should realize that spending time with their kids actually had benifits! Maybe if there was more interaction we would have less school shootings. I have been in the real world as well. Why would you assume that I haven't? I have delivered a weekly newspaper. How would you like it if you didn't have summer time when you were a kid? What ludicrous stpidity that you people propose!


Regrets? Don't have any. Deliver a weekly? Hell yes. I spent those 45 years working in both daily and weekly newspapers from Ontario to BC and I bet I delivered substantially more newspapers than you ever did. When carriers fail to deliver, the entire available staff does the job and that was often me.

And by the way, "stpidity" is spelled with a "u".


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Thanks to Gordguide to get the thread back on track.
Of course, some of us who had summers off, WORKED and made some money for our education. 
European and Asian schools have different schedules. Summers off? Not likely.

A New hope?
Chicago High School To Go Year-Round
PTA President: 'Change Is Always A Challenge'
Link:http://www.nbc5.com/education/10878149/detail.html


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

SINC said:


> Regrets? Don't have any. Deliver a weekly? Hell yes. I spent those 45 years working in both daily and weekly newspapers from Ontario to BC and I bet I delivered substantially more newspapers than you ever did. When carriers fail to deliver, the entire available staff does the job and that was often me.
> 
> And by the way, "stpidity" is spelled with a "u".


Touchee! I conceed that yes you most probably delivered more newspapers than me, drank more glasses of milk than me, shovelled more sidewalks than me, and walked uphill to school both ways through ten feet of snow. Good for you not having any regrets! I do regret not editing my last posts before pressing submit, but thank you for being so kind and generous of spirit to point out the misspelling of stupidity. I just get the feeling that you harbour ill-will towards me for enjoying my summer vacation. Do I detect a note of jealousy? I love being young. Thanks for pointing out my errors.


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## Dr. N (Mar 12, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> So students and teachers are somehow "exempt" from the real world??
> 
> Gee can I have the summer off too??


What are you getting at Macdoc? There is no teacher contract that has paid summer vacations. The salary is in fact a ten month salary that is divided over twelve months. Unlike private businesses that go ahead and inflate their prices so that they can take advantage of cheap rates during off season, then head off to third world nations to take advantage of their culture. Then only to come back to the developed country, brag about where they went and pretend that they were in fact providing a livelihood to them. What a hypocritical holiday some of you have at the expense of the consumer. 

Now as for students, they have the opportunity to obtain a job that will give them a period of two or four (if post secondary) months time of continuous job experience that may in fact collaborate with their desired career directions. Not to mention, that as industrious individuals, lots work over their school year in order to pay for outragous tuition fees or in fact support themselves and pay for our own clothes, entertainment and yes even rent at the age of 16. 

Did you enjoy your summer vacations MacDoc?


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

ErnstNL said:


> Thanks to Gordguide to get the thread back on track.
> Of course, some of us who had summers off, WORKED and made some money for our education.
> European and Asian schools have different schedules. Summers off? Not likely.
> 
> ...



Well, Japan has a very high teenage suicide rate. We learnt this a couple years ago in school, haven't you learnt it yet? Do we want to follow their model? I think not!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Dr. G you have no idea how much a full school year would hurt people. The break is there for a reason, so we can take a break off of school and enjoy the summer while it lasts." The "break" is there, mneub, since we are still using the agrarian-based school year of the 19th century. As well, in a previous post you contend that the "review in Sept." is a fallacy. I suggest that you speak to teachers, especially those teaching grades 2-6. Research has shown that more is lost in those years due to a 10+ week summer break. My suggested holiday of July off, along with one to three week holidays, does not result is this sort of knowledge/skill loss. I have taught grades 2/3 (a multi-graded class) and grade 6, along with teaching junior and senior high school social studies and English. So, I have some experience with this notion.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Dr. N Wow - you certainly have an odd view of the business world.  If you think any business can just on it's own "inflate it's prices" you've clearly been misinformed.

Cover it how you wish you have 2 months paid vacation.

Dr. Gs view is far more sensible with a bit longer breaks and for university and community colleges I'd much rather see a far more developed work co-op program based on a 3 semester cycle with one being a work semester.

Privileged first world nations are under tremendous competitive pressure from emerging powers like China and India.

I very much doubt many would prefer to go back to the 50s. mom at home and dad off to the factory...not that we ever could anyway.

Tourist dollars are incredibly important to some nations lacking in natural resources to mine. Exchange of cultures and injection of much needed hard currencies are most admirable.

Perhaps living in a multicultural city changes ones perspective.

One only has to look to Europe to see the benefits of open borders and free exchange of both trade and labour to bring living standards up.

ªªª

Mneub Japan's issue with teen suicides is due to their cultural pressures not an extended school year.
Undue reliance on specific universities that lead to good jobs creates a squeeze point that parents and students face.
It is NOT a comparable situation to here.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mneub said:


> I love being young.


Ah, now I understand.


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

Dr. G, thanks for responding. Although you may see some spelling errors here, since I type too fast, I have clear memories of my elementary years. September is often quite mild and beautiful here in Alberta. Reviewing in that month is not necessary for some of us kids who read books and generally do very well. We do not all need rote, repetition, ad nauseum. It would be better if you noticed kids, like me, who don't need that degree of repetition. Some of these kids who need so much review have other issues, unrelated to the fact that they have been out of school for 8 weeks of summer.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Tourist dollars are incredibly important to some nations lacking in natural resources to mine. Exchange of cultures and injection of much needed hard currencies are most admirable.


That may also prove problematic for nations whose main income derives from tourism, given the tremendous damage jet travel inflicts on the atmosphere. This is going to become increasingly obvious as time goes on... those nations most dependent on tourist dollars would do well to diversify until such time as commercial flight can be made much less damaging to the planet (developing much cleaner fuel technologies comes to mind).


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Mneub Japan's issue with teen suicides is due to their cultural pressures not an extended school year.
> Undue reliance on specific universities that lead to good jobs creates a squeeze point that parents and students face.
> It is NOT a comparable situation to here.



Sorry MacDoc, but you are wrong. Japan's issue with teen suicides is directly related to cram schools. So this is comparable to the situation here as it is increasing the amount of time in school.


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

SINC said:


> Ah, now I understand.


Care to elaborate?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mneub said:


> Care to elaborate?


Not really. 

What part of Alberta do you reside in?


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

SINC said:


> Not really.


Ah, now I understand. 



SINC said:


> What part of Alberta do you reside in?


I'm south of you and my family has been here for generations.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mneub said:


> I'm south of you and my family has been here for generations.


Interesting, I didn't know Alberta was south of Alberta. Thought it was Montana down there.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

mneub, you are one of the lucky ones. I am not an advocate of rote-memorization. However, there are literacy and numeracy abilities that if not practiced and built upon over a period of time, will become somewhat ineffective. Thus, the need for review. Those students who read and write over the summer months might not need any such review. However, those students at-risk, need all of the effective instruction they may receive. Thus, I am an advocate for a longer school year taught by effective teachers. I would pay these effective teachers more, so it's a win-win situation. I would also hire more specialist teachers, which should make the unions happy. More higher paid teachers might even make the need for teacher's unions obsolete.


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

SINC said:


> Interesting, I didn't know Alberta was south of Alberta. Thought it was Montana down there.


I know that you are from St. Albert because I have been on ehmac for years.


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## Dr. N (Mar 12, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> Dr. N Wow - you certainly have an odd view of the business world.  If you think any business can just on it's own "inflate it's prices" you've clearly been misinformed.
> 
> Cover it how you wish you have 2 months paid vacation.
> 
> ...


How would I have two months vacation?

As everyone knows, there is a suggested manufacturer's retail price. We all know about car prices, and clothes (among other items)that are made in third world nations, only to be brought back and sold at inflated prices. Retailers have a range of prices in which to sell their procducts. I also know that corporations can defer taxes and that there are millions of dollars that are unpaid taxes by these corporations. I also know that business gets to decuct expenses thus reducing their taxes. I also know that there are businesses that , just before the end of the year , increase their expenses so that they will be able to reduce their taxes so they pay nothing. I guess I would know. 
Europe has its own distinct problems ie: when Poland entered the EU, Grt. Britain was flooded with Polish workers that placed phenomenal stress on their social structure. Currently when Romania entered, Grt. Britain responded that they were going to review their immigration policy to prevent the same pressures. When you look at Canada and its NAFTA there are issues that Canada has not benefited from at all (ie BSE and the US refusal to take in Canada beef, another with the illustrious soft wood lumber scam, another with "dumping" of inferior steel into the US) Look around and you are becoming the 51st state. 

Perhaps a multi cultural city is the place to be but better yet, maybe acknowledgement and appreciation of a global culture is better. Ever lived outside of Ontario? Ever travel west of Sudbury? Hey, it's a large Canada out there. 

Text books: when you have a BNA Act the allows for the province to determine what the curriculum will be and then there will be a standarized test at the end of it, there needs to be something that will be topic ready and succinct. The internet does not provide for that type of efficacy. 

With regards to the 50's: hey, maybe if we had more "50's values" we would have fewer juvenile delinquents, more talks with our children, fewer divorces and fewer schools shootings. 

If you want the summer vacations of teachers and students 
then why not become one? You too could enjoy the summer.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

mneub said:


> I know that you are from St. Albert because I have been on ehmac for years.


And we all know that "St. Albert" is an abbreviation, in the west, for "South Alberta."


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

HowEver said:


> And we all know that "St. Albert" is an abbreviation, in the west, for "South Alberta."


I don't know what you are getting at.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mneub said:


> I know that you are from St. Albert because I have been on ehmac for years.


Ah yes, I see from your profile that you have been around for nearly five years. I guess when one has posted 27 times in total, that makes them an authority on ehMac. What took you so long to surface?


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

Dr.G. said:


> mneub, you are one of the lucky ones. I am not an advocate of rote-memorization. However, there are literacy and numeracy abilities that if not practiced and built upon over a period of time, will become somewhat ineffective. Thus, the need for review. Those students who read and write over the summer months might not need any such review. However, those students at-risk, need all of the effective instruction they may receive. Thus, I am an advocate for a longer school year taught by effective teachers. I would pay these effective teachers more, so it's a win-win situation. I would also hire more specialist teachers, which should make the unions happy. More higher paid teachers might even make the need for teacher's unions obsolete.


But maybe you can have longer summer vacations if we have more effective parenting. Have you ever seen a class of 30 plus children in the summer in an unairconditioned classroom. School is not a place to go to when you are bored. 

Bored in August? A classroom is not a place to go to.


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

SINC said:


> Ah yes, I see from your profile that you have been around for nearly five years. I guess when one has posted 27 times in total, that makes them an authority on ehMac.


So is that what this is all about?



SINC said:


> What took you so long to surface?


It's just my perrogative.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Everyone seems hell bent on proving that Alberta needs better teachers, perhaps.



mneub said:


> So is that what this is all about?
> 
> It's just my perrogative.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Yeah, I notissed that tew.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mneub said:


> It's just my perrogative.


prerogative - noun a right or privilege exclusive to a particular individual or class : owning an automobile was still the prerogative of the rich. • a faculty or property distinguishing a person or class : it's not a female prerogative to feel insecure. • (also royal prerogative) the right of the sovereign, which in British law is theoretically subject to no restriction.


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

SINC said:


> prerogative - noun a right or privilege exclusive to a particular individual or class : owning an automobile was still the prerogative of the rich. • a faculty or property distinguishing a person or class : it's not a female prerogative to feel insecure. • (also royal prerogative) the right of the sovereign, which in British law is theoretically subject to no restriction.


So I spelled it wrong. Your definition shows what I intended, but I didn't need a dictionary, I guess it's okay that you did though.


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

SINC, I thought you were going to quit me!


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

Max said:


> Yeah, I notissed that tew.


He who has not sinned, let him cast the first stone.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Dr. N said:


> As everyone knows, there is a suggested manufacturer's retail price. We all know about car prices, and clothes (among other items)that are made in third world nations, only to be brought back and sold at inflated prices. Retailers have a range of prices in which to sell their procducts. I also know that corporations can defer taxes and that there are millions of dollars that are unpaid taxes by these corporations. I also know that business gets to decuct expenses thus reducing their taxes. I also know that there are businesses that , just before the end of the year , increase their expenses so that they will be able to reduce their taxes so they pay nothing. I guess I would know.


Was the above meant to address this:
"If you think any business can just on it's own "inflate it's prices" you've clearly been misinformed."? 

If so, you made MD's point. If not then what are you getting at?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

mneub said:


> He who has not sinned, let him cast the first stone.


Whereas he who is young and impetuous shall cast as many stones as he feels like.

LOL


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## mneub (Sep 15, 2002)

Max said:


> Whereas he who is young and impetuous shall cast as many stones as he feels like.
> 
> LOL


I don't hide behind my age. At least I said what I thought and I didn't take petty shots at people. The topic was about schools and the internet, and I spend my life there everyday. I can have and express my opinion about it. I don't appreciate people's pompous put downs that they seem to believe they are so entitled to make because they are my elders.

LOL


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"I can have and express my opinion about it. I don't appreciate people's pompous put downs that they seem to believe they are so entitled to make because they are my elders." On this point, mneub and I are in total agreement. Paix, mon ami.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

That's correct mneub - you shall be honourably dissed on an equal footing with any other making unsupported statements. 

age IS no excuse and that cuts in both directions.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

mneub said:


> I don't hide behind my age. At least I said what I thought and I didn't take petty shots at people. The topic was about schools and the internet, and I spend my life there everyday. I can have and express my opinion about it. I don't appreciate people's pompous put downs that they seem to believe they are so entitled to make because they are my elders.
> 
> LOL


Hey, more power to you. Careful you don't double up on your own pomposity, though - methinks you're approaching a threshold there. You can up the amperage all you want, if that's what you think will make people respect you more... but you don't really believe no one will ever call you on it, do you?

Hey - do your best and I'll do mine. Ciao.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

We have one high school in Saskatoon where the school year is divided into 3 semesters; students must attend two consecutive semesters. Doesn't matter which two (fall, spring, summer). Teachers are hired on a per-semester basis and must take the third semester off; again, doesn't matter which third semester.

Getting creative opportunities like Work Study (employers can allocate positions to students and be assured of having a student position year-round; you would be surprised how easy that makes it to allocate resources and budgets to such a program for employers, as well as measure benefits you can take to shareholders and media alike) and Student Exchange programs are much easier and also more students can participate.

Work Study programs are amongst the most effective learning programs that students can participate in, often lead to many rewarding careers, and facilitates both further study and income for post secondary education.

Other alternate high school schedules are at Terry Fox Junior High in Calgary (Multitrack x5 Year Round Calendar), Walnut Grove Secondary School in Langley, BC (Extended Early Morning School Day) and other alternate public school programs are in place at Grenfell Elementary School in Grenfell, SK (4-Day Week) and Glendale Elementary in Williams Lake, BC (Single Track Year Round Calendar).


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Some of the old time ehMac'ers might also remember I was part of an educational experimental class; roughly 100 students in two grades (4 classes of 25) participated from Grade 3 to Grade 8.

The essence of the program was we were given no instructions in English Grammar or Literature and Composition. In fact, there was essentially no classroom instruction whatsoever; a teacher or librarian hung around to answer questions, and I might add, got a lot of work done in the bargain.

We had the same classroom hours as the other students, who like all students at the time lived a life of rote memorization, derogatory assessments of your mental abilities, your likely future in the working class hell the cities fathers found themselves trapped, rapped knuckles (beating of students was not simply allowed, it was encouraged) and public humiliation in front of the class. 

Instead, we had to read books, and summarize the book on index cards for other students to peruse while deciding what to read next. All students had to read one book per week, of their choice. No restrictions were made; you could read Dick and Jane if you wanted.

But, students were voluntarily taking up college level prose all the time, because, well, they were good books, and they are easy if you are comfortable with the language.

I personally barely know what a noun and verb is; I never took pronouns and adverbs, and I had never even heard the term gerund until college. I have no idea what it means or what it's good for.

All of our students had outstanding reading, writing and composition skills (class average at Grade 8 was Grade 11 equivalent). Our poorest students could read and write at Grade 7 levels. The downside was we had to take those 4-hour tests every miserable year of public school.

As soon as the class below me graduated, they took the data and ran off somewhere with it, never to be seen again. I have no idea if the results ever made it to the stage where the program was properly assessed and I've never heard a word about it anywhere.

Perhaps it was too much of a success; I know I had to go back and try to learn those crappy grammar rules in College, where it was expected everyone knew this stuff. I promptly forgot it as soon as humanly possible, and after 1st year I've never needed it again. I also heard that students who moved had problems since they didn't know the grammar rules they were expected to (and what exams consisted of). Perhaps it failed because other teachers didn't like it.

Anyway, I'm just mentioning that to remind us all that there are as many theories on education as there are days in the year, and the trouble is the only way to prove them is to experiment on real, live children, in programs that last real, live years. Anything you actually learn is probably too old to be of value, so the next experiment over the next period of years then begins. And that data is thrown away too, because someone, somewhere, can argue it's no longer relevant to the students of today (where "today" = "whatever year it is now").

Which brings people who insist that we need to get back to the fundamentals. Which brings up ... whatever they get around to teaching that year is what you get, and the "Science" of Education makes the other Social Sciences look like ... well, ... like Science.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Yeah, unions really ruin the working environment and work performance, at work. Since the unions came in:

- can't drink alcohol anywhere at work
- can't smoke in the office
- can't tell Betty how delicious she looks in that high-cut skirt, can't even give her a friendly slap on the ass or ask her to go out for the 20th time this week
- can't yell at employees
- have to pay women the same as men
- can't hang up the Sunshine girl on my cubicle
- have to take mandatory sexual harrassment training
- have to take mandatory confict management courses
- have to watch out for the health and safety of employees (including allergies, removal of asbestos, etc.)
- have to allow staff to move (can't keep them in the same position for several years), and have to allow them to grow or broaden their knowledge
- have to pay staff overtime, and a minimum of x hours, if I call them in to fix something
- had to introduced flexible hours to help those employees with kids or seniors to look after
- the employees enjoy working too much

Yeah, unions are really really bad.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Most of your so-called "union" list of accomplishments were in fact mandated by government legislation through lobbying from womens groups, gay groups, safety boards and the like.

It is a bit of a stretch to claim that unions should be credited for social legislation enacted by governments.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

SINC said:


> Most of your so-called "union" list of accomplishments were in fact mandated by government legislation through lobbying from womens groups, gay groups, safety boards and the like.


Note he diliberately skips unions in this statement. He just sort of tip-toes around it. Oh wait, he's got like there, I guess that's where hie includes them!

And since when does the government enforce pay equity!!! The union had to take the government to court just to get pay equity for women and men who the government, themselves, pay!

Unions also brought most of this into the workplace long before governments ever did anything about it.

Edit: And I forgot one other thing, who went after the government after they stole billions in surplus from the public service employees pension fund. The union.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Kosh said:


> Note he diliberately skips unions in this statement. He just sort of tip-toes around it.


Glad you noticed. To claim that entire list as the results of union action is not even close to believable.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Who has been the major proponent of Workplace Health and Safety?

Unions.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

mrjimmy said:


> Who has been the major proponent of Workplace Health and Safety?
> 
> Unions.


I'll give that one to unions, but not these:

- can't yell at employees
- have to pay women the same as men
- can't hang up the Sunshine girl on my cubicle
- have to take mandatory sexual harrassment training
- have to take mandatory confict management courses
- have to allow staff to move (can't keep them in the same position for several years), and have to allow them to grow or broaden their knowledge
- had to introduced flexible hours to help those employees with kids or seniors to look after


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## spudmac (Aug 23, 2002)

Here's one guys take on Jobs' message. He makes some very interesting points.

http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,72754-0.html?tw=rss.technology

spudmac


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

..


from the link below said:


> A few years ago I visited a public elementary school in an extremely wealthy part of Palo Alto, California, not far from where Jobs lives. Not a computer in sight. Only one classroom had a few crappy old Macs.
> 
> I also visited a school in San Francisco's impoverished Bayview district. The school is opposite some housing projects. The kids practice gunfire drills, scrambling under their desks when shots erupt across the street.
> 
> ...





spudmac said:


> Here's one guys take on Jobs' message. He makes some very interesting points.
> 
> http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,72754-0.html?tw=rss.technology
> 
> spudmac


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## 9mmCensor (Jan 27, 2006)

I wish where I worked we had unions. I work at a call center.

I get **** pay. Sit on a ****ty chair. Have a ****ty computer, and a horrid CRT that hurts my eyes.

And what can I do about it? Nothing. I am a powerless employee. I can choose to quit, or work there. Any input I make to improve things, is dismissed, or labels me as a trouble maker.

Unions give power to employees. I wish I had some power like that.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Unions like any other "type" of organization that humans develop have both positives and negatives.
Certainly for my father and many of his generation they were a lifeline away from horrid work conditions and abuse ( nickel mining and production ).
Progessive companies generally breed civilized unions ( Japan notably ).
In Germany they have evolved to be deeply integrated into the management of the company......perhaps too far in some views.

There are crooked corporations, crooked governments and crooked union.....human.
Oversight is essential in all cases to prevent the worst abuses.
Collective action is sometimes the only way to engender needed change.

I have some issue with public service unions as the dynamics and risks are not the same as with private enterprise.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Most of your so-called "union" list of accomplishments were in fact mandated by government legislation through lobbying from womens groups, gay groups, safety boards and the like.
> 
> It is a bit of a stretch to claim that unions should be credited for social legislation enacted by governments.



SINC, dear boy
before you start going on one of your "know it all" rants, remember it was you who claimed that there "never was any slavery in Canada"


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

MasterBlaster said:


> Should the adult film industry get unionized?
> 
> Those people are really getting *screwed*


Great pun!!! :clap: 

Historically in fact, there have been philosophic positions offered that suggest that prostitution should be unionised....


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

rgray said:


> Historically in fact, there have been philosophic positions offered that suggest that prostitution should be unionised....


Then what would happen to Wayne Brady's pimp hand?

Seriously though, they might want to start with making it legal first, that would probably improve conditions for the working girls without the need for a union.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## martman (May 5, 2005)

This is a difficult one for me. While I generally support unions, I've been a victim of lame teachers, as have we all. I believe in the right to work and I also believe in seniority. The problem is when seniority trumps everything else, especially when we are talking about teachers. I believe teachers do need unions (Mike Harris proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt (loved the minister of education who never completed high school)) but students need to have their rights protected too. The job of school teacher is very draining and those who whine about long Summer vacations should take a closer look at the burnout rate of teachers. It is easy to criticize when you know nothing about being a teacher. 
The problem is that teachers get burnt out and then jaded and are still in the classrooms. Their seniority protects the worst as it protects the best and the students end up suffering. We need a fresh approach that protects the paycheques of those who have given their best years but are burnt out while figuring out a way to keep these people out of classrooms but still made useful. I've had useless teachers who were about to retire and regretted it but what is the fair way to respond to this kind of a situation? Should 20 + years of service just be ignored and show these people the door? I don't think so.

As an aside I've seen plenty of need for modern day unions. All this talk of ending unions is a baby with the bathwater situation. Most criticism of unions I've seen amount to sour grapes and selfishness. Get rid of unions and employers will revert almost instantly to old habits. We saw a lot of this in Ontario during the Harris / Eves era.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Until unions can fit the concept of MERIT into their dogma, they will remain an irrelevant relic of the industrial revolution. It is obscene that unions stand up for incompetent members. Incompetence should be fired!!!! - begining, middle and end of story... Unless unions can manage this they will continue to stand for top_price/bottom_quality....


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

> Most criticism of unions I've seen amount to sour grapes and selfishness. Get rid of unions and employers will revert almost instantly to old habits.


:clap: 

I absolutely agree.

Having worked as both a unionized and non union worker in the same industry, I can say HAND'S DOWN the collective agreement wins everytime.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

> they will remain an irrelevant relic of the industrial revolution.


Nonsense.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

And I can say, hands down, they're worse from my experience with them. It's up to personal preference based on a number of factors. So let people choose.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

mrjimmy said:


> HAND'S DOWN the collective agreement wins everytime.


Not universally true.. I have always done better on contract than the organised people in the same institution.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Beej said:


> And I can say, hands down, they're worse from my experience with them. It's up to personal preference based on a number of factors. So let people choose.


Then it's no longer a collective agreement is it?


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

rgray said:


> Not universally true.. I have always done better on contract than the organised people in the same institution.


You can always work 'above scale' but never below it. It's like (eeghads) a 'minimum wage'...


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Beej said:


> .......... So let people choose.





mrjimmy said:


> Than it's no longer a collective agreement is it?


Yes, exactly.. See? Wasn't that easy?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

mrjimmy said:


> Then it's no longer a collective agreement is it?


What's the problem with people choosing? The ones that choose to sign the agreement, collectively do so. Along the lines of the faux "management is to blame argument", if unions can't get signup, then it's their fault, not the people's. Employers earn their people and their unions; unions earn their people and their employers.

A handy in-between is allowing multiple unions (I think even Buzz supported this).


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I still think public funded institutions require a different set of rules than private.
I was dead against unions for public service and still am but recognize some oversight/ombudsman body is needed.

Not sure what the solution is but when the Ontario Teachers Union pension fund ends up being a 9000 lb gorilla in the financial world I have to question the entire structure and value for money.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Neat thing about the OT pension is that it's directed by highly paid financial experts that can earn large bonuses. beejacon

Sorry, that's not really relevant but...I'm bored.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Even the most forward-thinking institutions, the promoters of equality, the ones who re-write the rules for society so that humanity moves forward in its evolution and the downtrodden are given a hand up and the poverty-stricken are fed and the sick are cared for... in their own business dealings, and among their own employees, are so chock full of egomaniacal, inept, and just generally crappy middle managers that unions aren't just necessary, they are absolutely required.

I referred earlier in this thread to the level of incompetence among managers that is so great that even the worst employees don't get fired. Having watched so many of them actually promoted instead to become managers themselves, I have no doubt about the efficacy of unions in the public service and pseudo-public or arms-length government, education and health areas.

_Management_, generally speaking, _floats_. You can fill in the meaning yourselves. Most managers couldn't even write the memo to human resources in order to start the process of getting someone else to fire someone. They don't have the basic skills, the will, the good sense, or the attention span.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Clearly managers need to unionize. VPs too. Just to make sure everyone benefits, CEOs should unionize. The world would be a better place because individuals can not be trusted.

BTW, broad-brush statements about management are great. Dilbert = Truth. I'd pray to that sooner than other religious texts.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

i think the large and increasing gap between avg. ceo pay and avg. employee pay is indicative of how little high end mgmt cares about employees



> According to Business Week, the average CEO of a major corporation made 42 times the average hourly worker's pay in 1980. By 1990 that had almost doubled to 85 times. In 2000, the average CEO salary reached an unbelievable 531 times that of the average hourly worker.


http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a/CEOsOverpaid.htm

all throughout history conditions for revolution ripened when a shrinking % of the population owned an increasing % of assets and monies

the u.s. and canada are starting to slide down the path towards feudalism


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

The union debate, among others, rears it's head every few months around here.

Broad brush _anything*_ is BS.

Unions have not out lived their effectiveness. You free marketeers with pockets full of education and opportunity can proclaim from your towers that 'good' workers shouldn't need unions (look at me! Look at what I've achieved!) and all they've done is discourage excellence and held good people back. 

Well I say nonsense. Unions give individuals a voice who might not of ever had one. Not every 'good' worker can thumb his nose at a paycheque in pursuit of a better contract etc. Unions look at things 'management' may want overlooked. Like Health and Safety. Like indiscriminate firings by capricious muddle managers (no typo). Like fair compensation when profits are soaring. We need people to do these jobs. They should be paid well. People won't (generally) pay well if they don't have to. I don't want to live in such as one sided society, do you?

As far as choice, unfortunately the individual must become part of the 'collective' in order for unions to succeed. 

Open shops are not unions, they are associations.

* Unions or management alike.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

unions are a direct product of bad management
period

why would any well treated, properly paid, happy employees ever decide to join a union and give up a good chunk of their hard earned cash?

because of bad and distrustful mgmt.

you want to do away with unions?
start treating employees properly
all managers and owners need to do is look in the mirror and ask how they themselves would want to be treated
voila...


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> unions are a direct product of bad management
> period
> .......................
> why would any well treated, properly paid, happy employees ever decide to join a union and give up a good chunk of their hard earned cash?
> ...


It concluded with the word, "period". Then it must be true. 
.......................
You don't understand people very well?
.......................
I want all employees to have the choice. As a second best solution, allow for multiple unions.
.......................
Junior to mid-management clearly needs to unionise for your reasons. VPs and CEOs next. Each employer has a complete monopoly over their CEO. Time to balance the power.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Beej said:


> It concluded with the word, "period". Then it must be true.
> .......................
> You don't understand people very well?
> .......................
> ...



yeah, poor CEOs only making 500+ times more money avg. hourly employee
maybe we need a telethon too?

once again, people don't want to give up part of their salary to a union that exists only because the company treated the people so poorly that they decided to pay a union to negotiate for them

perhaps one day employees will be treated as fairly as CEOs
then you would say unions de-certified like apples falling off a tree in late fall


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