# Fresh Raw Milk



## Principal (Nov 28, 2004)

Anybody out there know where to buy Raw Milk, butter, & cheese, in and around SouthWestern Ontario?
Thanks in advance


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

> The pasteurization process for milk was implemented specifically to kill common pathogens transmitted by milk, and secondarily, to give milk a longer shelf life by reducing the number of spoilage-causing organisms. The most significant diseases transmitted by milk are salmonellosis, brucellosis, tuberculosis, and campylobacteriosis.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk

Mmmmm.....



> Cows with mastitis (an infection of their breast tissue) pass the infecting bacteria into their milk. The most significant bacteria causing bovine mastitis are Streptococcus agalactiae (and other streptococcus species), Staphylococcus aureus, various species of Mycoplasma, and coliform bacteria. These are all human pathogens — they can cause disease in humans.


It just keeps getting better.



> Cows that carry internal salmonella infections (especially salmonella dublin) can shed the bacteria in their milk, despite external washing and cleaning of their udders. In addition, many kinds of bacteria can continue to reside on the udders' surface after washings, including salmonella and staphylococcus.


Anyone else thirsty?



> Products made using raw milk (such as cheese and yogurt) will contain the same bacteria as the original milk. These processing methods do not kill disease-causing bacteria. Between 2001 and 2004, tuberculosis from raw milk cheese caused the death of one infant and sickening of dozens of people in New York City.


Now I'm hungry too!



> Buying "certified" raw milk is no guarantee that the milk is disease-free: many documented cases of salmonella dublin infection in humans have been caused by consumption of infected certified raw milk. Certification of raw milk is performed by a dairy industry association, not by public health authorities.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

maybe he's going to pasteurize it himself?


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Maybe.

Not sure how you pasteurize cheese and butter though.


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## Canuckmakem (Jan 12, 2006)

This is why I don't consume dairy. Ist just wrong when you look into it more.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Everything will kill you over time.



> An American Heart Association committee, after reviewing a decade of studies on the claimed benefits of soy, has cast doubt on the claim that soy-based foods and supplements significantly lower cholesterol.


http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,17917142%5E911,00.html


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

> Products made using raw milk (such as cheese and yogurt) will contain the same bacteria as the original milk.


I'd like to see a reliable source confirming this. In Quebec at least, raw milk cheese can be sold, but raw milk and butter can't (not sure about yogurt). That implies to me that cheese-making does work a significant change. Which makes sense, because the original purpose of cheese-making was surely preservation/long-term storage.



> These processing methods do not kill disease-causing bacteria. Between 2001 and 2004, tuberculosis from raw milk cheese caused the death of one infant and sickening of dozens of people in New York City.


OMG! Dozens sickened and one killed over three years in a city of >10 million! Stop the presses! Pasteurize all the cows! 

Seriously, these figures tell us almost nothing about the safety of raw milk cheese. For example, is it inherently a tuberculosis risk, or were there specific problems in NYC in 2001-04? How widely consumed was it? What does "dozens" mean? 24? 144?

More importantly, why is raw milk cheese not causing hospitals to overflow in places where it's widely made and consumed, such as Quebec and France? Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'll continue to believe that eating raw-milk cheese is at worst only marginally riskier than eating any other properly prepared and stored food.


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

more people are killed from drunk drivers. Let the man have his damn milk!

And if your that worried about infections and getting sick, dont touch ANYTHING in public, wear a mask and rubber gloves wherever you go.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> And if your that worried about infections and getting sick, dont touch ANYTHING in public, wear a mask and rubber gloves wherever you go.


i do. check my avatar


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

iMatt said:


> In Quebec at least, raw milk cheese can be sold, but raw milk and butter can't (not sure about yogurt). That implies to me that cheese-making does work a significant change.
> More importantly, why is raw milk cheese not causing hospitals to overflow in places where it's widely made and consumed, such as Quebec and France? Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'll continue to believe that eating raw-milk cheese is at worst only marginally riskier than eating any other properly prepared and stored food.


And some of the raw milk cheeses are so much tastier -


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

guytoronto said:


> Everything will kill you over time.
> 
> And what doesn't kill you will make you stronger i.e. strengthen your immune system.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Many rural kids were raised on raw milk.... There are potential dangers, yes... But one is in tune with the health of one's herd and there are also the economics of raising a family.

From the farmer's point of view, if you ship above quota you are penalised so it behooves you where possible to give away any excess. I had a friend who had a family dairy farm and he supplied us with (grey market, I guess) milk while I went to school.... free range eggs too.

Dangers aside, there is nothing that tastes quite so good as fresh, full cream milk right at the farm unless it is beer.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

I think Kraft bought out all the nice cottage industry cheese factories,
Although there is one that I go to in Prince Edward County called "Black River".
I just love their "Squeaky Cheese" (Curds).

http://www.blackrivercheese.com/

Where to buy:
http://www.blackrivercheese.com/contact.html#stores

Dave


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

There are plenty of cottage cheese factories around, just have to know where to look.
Kraft and others do buy smaller factories. They are bound by quotas imposed on them. If possible, they would buy/produce/import more cheese but have to balance market concerns (milk producers etc...)


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

Speaking of cheese and milk, since my wife is pregnant, she is not supposed to have any unpasteurised milk or cheese made from unpasteurised milk. We have been very careful about this but, we both love feta, and it's one of the "bad" cheeses. However, every grocer that I have been to tells me that all feta is now made with pasteurised milk (sheep usually, sometimes goat). Most of the packaged stuff lists pasteurised milk as the first ingredient.

Can anyone who knows their cheeses shed some light on this matter?

P.S. Sorry to derail the thread.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

I know my wife ate a lot of feta (one of our favs, too), without any problem. We weren't warned about it


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## Principal (Nov 28, 2004)

*A different view about raw milk*



guytoronto said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk
> 
> Mmmmm.....
> 
> ...


http://www.realmilk.com/abstractsmilk.html


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## SkyHook (Jan 23, 2001)

.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Principal said:


> http://www.realmilk.com/abstractsmilk.html


Nothing like those facts of 1939.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

If you are worried about the health benefits of your run of the mill store bought milk, why not just buy Certified Organic Dairy?


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

SkyHook said:


> In theory, any farmer with dairy products can give you some without breaking the law, they just can't sell it to you.


NOT true, at least not in Ontario. I currently live and work with many dairy farmers, and they are not allowed by law to even give away their raw milk. Only way to get it is to know which farmers "forget" to lock their milking sheds. Seriously.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Nothing like those facts of 1939.


No worse than taking Wikipedia articles as plain fact. Hey, if you want to do that, just check out the article on cheese. There, it's stated that cheese-related food poisoning in France (where raw-milk cheese is common) is almost always traced to cheese made from pasteurized milk.

So which claim is right? 

Whichever it is, the fact is that any food product presents a health risk, because there's always an unknown risk of there having been a breakdown in proper manufacturing, storage or handling practices somewhere along the line. Somebody didn't wash the lettuce well enough, and now your salad is an e. coli festival. The best you can do is try to learn as much as you can about where your food is coming from and how it's processed, and act accordingly. 

And if you're afraid of products made with raw milk, that's fine. Don't eat them. Just remember that all cheese, by definition, is teeming with bacteria. And that once the milk is pasteurized and the cheese is made, the final product is not just yummy food for you, but for all kinds of microbes that it may encounter before reaching your plate. Even pasteurized milk must have some bacteria, or at least be an attractive medium for whatever bacteria are living in your fridge, or it would never go sour.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Everything will kill you over time.
> 
> 
> http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,17917142%5E911,00.html


>An American Heart Association committee, after reviewing a decade of studies on the claimed benefits of soy, has cast doubt on the claim that soy-based foods and supplements significantly lower cholesterol.

Soy-based foods definitely have a positive effect on the untimely deaths of certain animals.

Heart-based eating is not the only reason people consume soy.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

Another nice cheese factory located in Campbellford, Ontario

Empire Cheese & Butter Co-operative
http://empirecheese.com/

(Takes a bit to load the page)

D


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## Principal (Nov 28, 2004)

*OK something a little more current*



guytoronto said:


> Nothing like those facts of 1939.


The Real Reasons Why Raw Milk is Becoming More Popular

Edit removed the article and inserted the link instead
http://www.mercola.com/2004/apr/24/raw_milk.htm


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Good article, Principal. As a general rule here on ehMac, we don't post the entirety of an article, so we don't cause copyright issues. In addition, it is always wise to give the source, since otherwise people will complain and ask for it anyways


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## SkyHook (Jan 23, 2001)

.


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## drehleierguy (Aug 8, 2004)

If anyone is looking for raw milk in Ontario, please email me privately as I have a great source. The perverse law regarding this in Ontario prevents me from sharing the information publicly.

Why is raw milk illegal but McDonalds, hydrogenated oils, cigarettes, high-fructose corn syrop, and an enormous host of industrial waste sadly called "food" legal? How perverse and hypocritical!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

drehleierguy said:


> If anyone is looking for raw milk in Ontario, please email me privately as I have a great source. The perverse law regarding this in Ontario prevent me from sharing the information publicly.
> 
> Why is raw milk illegal but McDonalds, hydrogenated oils, cigarettes, high-fructose corn syrop, and an enormous host of industrial waste sadly called "food" legal? How perverse and hypocritical!


Yep, but that is Canada. Heck we even allowed Liberals at one point.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061128.wxmilk28/BNStory/National/home

................
The raid has unleashed the powerful outrage of sophisticated, health-conscious, political-minded urbanites who are willing to a pay a premium for natural, unadulterated food straight from the farmer -- and insist that their right to choose healthful food is at stake.
................


Ignoring where demand may be coming from, this is not an easy topic. There have been health interventions, such as flouride in water, that have yielded huge health benefits, but is it wrong to offer an alternative? More specifically, with ongoing health and safety advances, should regulations based other starting points be kept?


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

i hate modern times!
I want fresh milk and farm eggs, dammit.
I have to drive for over two hours for decent eggs (organics eggs are crap, too)


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Here we go again.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

you stinking unracist pig!


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

i need someone to make me a t-shirt and an avatar of "CHE GUEVARA" with a milk moustache!  The fight is on!!! 

Hunger strike over raw milk
Farmer in standoff with police over organic produce

http://www.metronews.ca/story.aspx?id=19160


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

guytoronto said:


> Nothing like those facts of 1939.


Guy, there was at least one citation from only 62 years ago in there!


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Then I take it all back! Let the raw milk flow! Louis Pasteur can bite it!


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

I get incredible raw milk Edam at the Dufferin Grove Market (Duffering Grove Park across the street from the Dufferin Mall Thursdays 3-7M).
Man is it good. The vendor offers the cheese in pasteurized and unpasteurized and man is the unpasteurized noticeably better.
Guytoronto your links information is not as convincing as you make it out to be. The only example you find is one food poisoning outbreak in NYC. Not very convincing. The way you wrote it into your post was deceptive. From your link to Wikipedia: 


Wikipedia said:


> Between 2001 and 2004, an outbreak of tuberculosis, which health officials believed to be from unlabelled, illegally imported, Mexican soft raw milk cheese, caused the death of one infant and sickening of dozens of people in New York City. [2]


Gee you didn't bother to mention that the raw cheese was illegally imported from Mexico. Did you?
Many people enjoy raw milk safely every day. Let's see some real numbers to convince me from a period more modern than the 1930's or more informative than an outbreak from illegally imported food. 

There are dangers to raw milk but pasturized milk has it's unhealthy issues as well. Cooking milk (pasteurization) makes it much harder to digest and alters proteins. 

Meat gets bacteria far more easily than milk yet we happily sell meat out of supermarkets.


More on the Tuberculosis from Mexican Raw Milk Cheese:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/16/nyregion/16milk.html?ex=1268629200&en=8f571aa0454c7d4d&ei=5088


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

> Meat gets bacteria far more easily than milk yet we happily sell meat out of supermarkets.


Yes, but people know to cook meat to get rid of bacteria.

I wouldn't touch raw cow's milk with a 10 foot pole.

I wonder if there would be a market for raw human milk...


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> I wouldn't touch raw cow's milk with a 10 foot pole.
> 
> I wonder if there would be a market for raw human milk...


That's nice.
I think US milk is far more scary than certified raw milk. They use growth hormones to increase milk production... 
Again you have failed to do more than scare mongering and produced little to no real numbers, just FDA talking points.

Raw human milk would have a market but I wouldn't want to know the customers. :yikes:


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> I wouldn't touch raw cow's milk with a 10 foot pole.



apart from the current issue of safety (you are Canadians, so i understand); have you ever had a glass of fresh milk? i'm just curious.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I've had some milk about 10 seconds fresh, still warm from the cow. I can't say I preferred it that way, but it was very rich.


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## SkyHook (Jan 23, 2001)

>


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

gastonbuffet said:


> apart from the current issue of safety (you are Canadians, so i understand); have you ever had a glass of fresh milk? i'm just curious.


I used to drink raw goat's milk when I lived on a farm. From a glass.

I also used to drink raw human milk when I was really young. Not from a glass.


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