# Apple Unveils New iMac With 21.5 and 27-inch Displays



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Apple today unveiled an all new iMac line featuring brilliant LED-backlit 21.5 and 27-inch widescreen displays in a new edge-to-edge glass design and seamless all aluminum enclosure. The new iMac line, starting at $1,199, is the fastest ever with Intel Core 2 Duo processors starting at 3.06 GHz, and Core i5 and i7 quad-core processors for up to twice the performance. Every new iMac ships with a wireless keyboard and the all new wireless Magic Mouse, the world’s first mouse with Multi-Touch technology. 

Full story...


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

This is quite an update. At long last 16:9 aspect ratio and a good selection of processors (including an option for an i7 processor).


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## Visual-Q (Dec 14, 2003)

The new Imac certainly looks awesome but the numbers don't seem to make sense.

Either the base mac pros (maybe all the mac pros) are vastly overpriced or this must be a very lightweight version of the i7 and the monitor seems to be conjured out of thin air, I couldn't find any other manufacturers who made anything comparable in what would seem a reasonable price point to allow this.

What am I missing?


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## zarquon (May 24, 2005)

New iMac, but also new MacBook (no FW again - but under $1k) and a new mini. Also the new mouse - I'll wait to try it, but very nice to see.

Z



ehMax said:


> Apple today unveiled an all new iMac line.
> 
> Full story...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ehMax said:


> Apple today unveiled an all new iMac line featuring brilliant LED-backlit 21.5 and 27-inch widescreen displays in a new edge-to-edge glass design and seamless all aluminum enclosure. The new iMac line, starting at $1,199, is the fastest ever with Intel Core 2 Duo processors starting at 3.06 GHz, and Core i5 and i7 quad-core processors for up to twice the performance. Every new iMac ships with a wireless keyboard and the all new wireless Magic Mouse, the world’s first mouse with Multi-Touch technology.
> 
> Full story...


Bit of a change from earlier today, eh what? 



ehMax said:


> I'm guessing Macbooks and Mac Mini's. No iMac updates yet.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Just wonderin' with the upgrade to 16 megs of ram .... are they thinking the Pro is obsolete?


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## Ohmsford (Mar 1, 2008)

New Imacs make me happy!!

Interesting note though, if you configure a 27 inch base model iMac, their is no additional charge to "upgrade" the video card. Possible error that I should capitalize on?

*EDIT*

Its an additional $150 dollars on the US store, and no addition on the Canada Store


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Rps: More likely that the Mac Pro is becoming more of a niche product - a workstation that provides expandability and more power.


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## Carter (Sep 8, 2009)

Mins. after this was released I had the Apple guys here that are setting up for a FCS 3 session all telling me about the new 27" iMac and other refreshed/updated items.

Already have my one year old iMac 24" 3.06 for sale to hopefully get as much for it as possible and then look at a 27" after Xmas 



Rps said:


> Just wonderin' with the upgrade to 16 megs of ram .... are they thinking the Pro is obsolete?


I think the need to upgrade from 16megs is a must  .... but ya, 16GB is a huge jump.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

zarquon said:


> New iMac, but also new MacBook (no FW again - but under $1k)
> Z


Not in Canada it's not (1099 before tax). Pricing is still astronomical for an entry level notebook IMO. However, I'm sure Apple doesn't care given it's record breaking profit announcements yesterday.


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

Is the screen still glossy? Cause I love to see the reflections of my hands, face and everything behind me. It makes it really hard to sneak up on me.


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## johnnyspade (Aug 24, 2007)

I have a friend who just purchased an iMac (previous to update) and took delivery of it two days ago. I don't think I have the heart to tell him...


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## SicSid (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey everyone first time poster!

I have seen the new macs on the site and am in the market to buy one. My old PC crashed and I love the idea of mac computers. I was able to borrow a Mac Mini from a family member, and I love it so far. The only thing that I find is that they really arent capable of handling 3d games to my liking. With the new mac mini with more ram and whatnot, would they be able to handle games like WoW and such, or should i look more toward an iMac?

Thanks for any responses.


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## shooting_rubber (Mar 22, 2008)

SicSid said:


> Hey everyone first time poster!
> 
> I have seen the new macs on the site and am in the market to buy one. My old PC crashed and I love the idea of mac computers. I was able to borrow a Mac Mini from a family member, and I love it so far. The only thing that I find is that they really arent capable of handling 3d games to my liking. With the new mac mini with more ram and whatnot, would they be able to handle games like WoW and such, or should i look more toward an iMac?
> 
> Thanks for any responses.


I'd suggest getting the iMac with the higher end video card if you are looking to go for gaming...


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## rpw1 (Sep 30, 2009)

I would think the new iMacs would be the way to go.


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## napoleon1769 (May 8, 2009)

Why did they discontinue the 24''ers? They were perfect imo.


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## Veej (Feb 16, 2006)

Just as I thought inching closer to a 30" iMac possibly in a year or two. The mouse looks sweet...I'll try it out before buying that one...Currrently I have the Logitech MX Revolution...but has anyone looked at the Logitech Air Mouse,...that really looks cool also.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Hope the smaller iMacs now support 8 bit per channel colour rather than the 20th Century approach of dithering 6bit per channel to fake millions of colours.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2009)

Their marketing is really stretching for some of this stuff, when talking about the new screens they say that they:



> covers nearly the entire front of the enclosure


Wow ... that is innovative. Too bad it's just like every flat screen iMac in this series to date and pretty much any flatscreen monitor made in the last 5 years. How is that big news for marketing??

I really really REALLY wish that Apple would make a "semi-pro" model of a headless machine one of these years. Not everyone wants to be stuck with the glossy screen that Apple is pimping with these iMacs and the inability to add things like additional internal drives or PCIe cards ... and some of us want to use more modern ways of connecting external drives, like eSata. I can't believe that Apple is still not shipping anything with eSata ports! Right now if you want eSata on a desktop (which is very quickly becoming the standard for external drives) you have to dish out for a Mac Pro and then try to find a card that's actually supported with latest OS updates (good luck on that one). 

Mac mini's are serious under performers, with iMacs you're force fed glossy screens, and Mac Pro's are pretty expensive. There's a HUGE piece of the marketplace Apple is missing -- in between the iMac and the Mac Pro. It's no wonder so many people are building hackintoshes instead of buying Apple hardware.

Lastly with the move to all wireless keyboards and mice, I really hope that Apple worked out just how to let people hold down key combinations or mouse buttons during startup ... if not just how will you force it to startup from other devices or eject stuck disks at bootup time?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

SINC said:


> Bit of a change from earlier today, eh what?


Finally... my reverse psychology worked!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Agree about the lack of eSata support. Strange considering how far ahead of the curve Apple was when it came to FireWire.

Still finding way too many issues related to wireless KB and Mouse to want that as standard. 

Disappointed that the minis only have one FW port. 

Hope the old eMac has another year or two left in it.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes Apple *was* ahead of the curve. Now they are lagging further and further behind. Yes they still make good hardware, but they are "missing the bus" on a lot of key things that could open up further sales to them. I just hope they don't start to fall behind the curve :/ Missing eSata is getting pretty close to falling behind the curve IMHO.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> Hope the smaller iMacs now support 8 bit per channel colour rather than the 20th Century approach of dithering 6bit per channel to fake millions of colours.


The new panels are IPS technology panels - which is for sure 8bit. Such a great move, as Apple had previously downgraded the 20" Aluminum Models to crummy TN Panels.



mguertin said:


> Their marketing is really stretching for some of this stuff, when talking about the new screens they say that the (screens stretch from edge to edge) ... Wow ... that is innovative. Too bad it's just like every flat screen iMac in this series to date and pretty much any flatscreen monitor made in the last 5 years. How is that big news for marketing??


It's actually not like any iMac before it. Even the previous-Gen Aluminums had a thin aluminum outline around the display and every flatscreen monitor sold these days has a bezel - including the current iMac - but the GLASS reaches from edge to edge, making it seem more sleek and seamless.

OLD iMAC:
[









NEW iMAC:












eMacMan said:


> Agree about the lack of eSata support. Strange considering how far ahead of the curve Apple was when it came to FireWire.


That's 'cause Apple helped develop FireWire. They didn't help develop eSATA.



eMacMan said:


> Still finding way too many issues related to wireless KB and Mouse to want that as standard.


You can still choose wired mouse/keyboard as free options at checkout.



eMacMan said:


> Disappointed that the minis only have one FW port.


Did they ever have more than one?



mguertin said:


> Yes Apple *was* ahead of the curve. Now they are lagging further and further behind. Yes they still make good hardware, but they are "missing the bus" on a lot of key things that could open up further sales to them. I just hope they don't start to fall behind the curve :/ Missing eSata is getting pretty close to falling behind the curve IMHO.


eSata is still a very high-end/professional feature that 90% of consumers don't know about let alone use. Hel, most of those people are 100% satisfied with USB. Apple considers the iMacs/Minis as "Consumer Machines". I watched the "iMac Video" on the Apple site, and the number of times they said "consumer" surprised me, but also made it clear who these machines are aimed at: Consumers/Pro-Sumers. 

If you want "professional" - Apple says you have to buy a $2700+ MacPro. If you don't like it - go buy something else - Apple's still making record profits.


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## Veej (Feb 16, 2006)

I think they both look the same woopy-doo if the glass reaches the end...it had to pointed out twice to me and then the comparison side made me notice the difference..and I still think it's no biggie of an improvement over the last model, maybe if they had lost the chin...on the imac then that would've been something.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

The eMac has 2 FW 400 ports as did most Macs prior to the MacIntel switch. I believe the high end had one 800 plus one or 2 400 ports.

Has come in handy when I had trouble burning CDs via a daisy chain. See that there are enough USB2 ports to hook up KB, Mouse, Scanner, External DVD burner and one left for a cable for a card reader etc. So assuming the burner has no problems running via USB should be adequate although external drives would end up being daisy chained if I need to run 2 at once.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Veej said:


> maybe if they had lost the chin...on the imac then that would've been something.


If people knew how the interior of the iMacs were designed, they would know that that isn't currently possible.


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

Good observations as always, FF. So does the low-end 27-inch have the 512MB graphics card as a free upgrade? Because EPP price at $1655 sure is tempting.


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## MacAddict (Jan 29, 2006)

zarquon said:


> New iMac, but also new MacBook (no FW again - but under $1k) and a new mini. Also the new mouse - I'll wait to try it, but very nice to see.
> 
> Z


The new iMac has a Firewire 800 port, the same as the latest Mac mini.


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## MacAddict (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eMacMan 
Still finding way too many issues related to wireless KB and Mouse to want that as standard.	

Care to elaborate on that ? I've been using the wireless keyboard and mouse for over 18 months now and have had no issues whatsoever.


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## mkolesa (Jul 22, 2008)

*~*

i think the apple wireless keyboard and mouse work fine, but the fact is that when i go to change the batteries i usually have to toggle the bluetooth on/off or select to connect the peripheral in the bluetooth menu to get it to connect again which means you still need your wired keyboard and mouse just for that (i'm not alone, my brother has the same complaint). so i have no idea how they can ship only the wireless keyboard & mouse now without having the same prob when it's time for a battery swap...


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

mikeinmontreal said:


> Good observations as always, FF. So does the low-end 27-inch have the 512MB graphics card as a free upgrade? Because EPP price at $1655 sure is tempting.


MiM, I saw that too and that price is TOTALLY tempting. And the 512MB "free" upgrade is defintely a glitch (it's +$150 in the US Store right now).

That glitchy freebie is making me want to get the credit card out and buy ASAP.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Wonder what the colour depth is.
Sure makes an already ludicrous 24" Apple Monitor downright silly.


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## greydoggie (Apr 21, 2009)

After seeing those pictures together I like the way the last ones look better. But I would have rather payed the new price.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> The eMac has 2 FW 400 ports as did most Macs prior to the MacIntel switch. I believe the high end had one 800 plus one or 2 400 ports.


I agree that the more ports the better, but the eMac had more FW ports 'cause most eMacs (other than the 1.25/1.42Ghz models) only had USB 1.1 support.

Those eMacs were also released back in the day of the FW-only iPods - so of course Apple had the impetus to include more FW ports. Now-a-days, nothing Apple makes connects via FW, so they have much less reason to leave it on their machines.



eMacMan said:


> Has come in handy when I had trouble burning CDs via a daisy chain. See that there are enough USB2 ports to hook up KB, Mouse, Scanner, External DVD burner and one left for a cable for a card reader etc. So assuming the burner has no problems running via USB should be adequate although external drives would end up being daisy chained if I need to run 2 at once.


Once again, Apple considers these comsumer machines. And I doubt many consumers are daisy chaining FW CD Burners these days. Even still, the mouse plugs into the keyboard - so that's only 1 port being used, leaving 3 USB and a FW800 left. And with the new iMac, the SD card-reader is build in and the BT Mouse/Keyboard come standard - so there's NO USB ports being used in the default config 



MacDoc said:


> Wonder what the colour depth is.
> Sure makes an already ludicrous 24" Apple Monitor downright silly.


What manufacturers are making 27" IPS panels? and 21.5 ones for that matter? Would these not be the same panels in the Dell 2708 and 2208WA IPS monitors? 



greydoggie said:


> After seeing those pictures together I like the way the last ones look better. But I would have rather payed the new price.


If you like the old look - you can get the old 24" iMac 2.66Ghz for $1199 in the Refurb store (when it's in stock). Such a steal.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Apple dropped the ball on that mouse though. That mouse is so low it would kill your wrist after 30 minutes.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Good point - likely S-PVA for the 27" a tad step down tho not a lot considering the real estate.

The usual garbage TN for the entry level


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## Commodus (May 10, 2005)

Both displays are IPS panels, i.e. the good, colour-accurate kind. That's actually an improvement from before, where the 20-inch was TN-based and it was painfully obvious Apple had cut corners.

Since Apple signed a $500 million deal with LG Display, odds are one or both screens come from that company.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

No Upgradeable Video Card (IE only 512mb, I want a Gtx 260 or 295  ) = No Sale.


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

FF, if they do end up charging for the 512MB upgrade, the quad-core ends up being a much better deal for an extra $100 or so, IMO.


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

$1807 now with the 512MB upgrade vs. $1931 for the quad-core, EPP price.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Both displays are IPS panels, i.e. the good, colour-accurate kind. That's actually an improvement from before, where the 20-inch was TN-based and it was painfully obvious Apple had cut corners.


and you would know that because??

The leading tracker of panel types size has no 27" s-IPS , only S-PVA and zero 21.5 S-IPS
only TN

A 1080p S-IPS panel would be prohibitively expensive...

Consider most 1080p S-iPS panels command in the $700=1000 range

Until I see proof I'm from Missouri.....

Okay did some hunting...likely E-IPS...certainly better than TN



> E-IPS includes the same features as S-IPS, but a slightly lower viewing angle (*178°* versus 179°) and a lower gamut than S-IPS (but still much higher than TN).


That's an improvement.:clap:

Apple lists 178 viewing angle.



> Typical viewing angle: *178° *horizontal; 178° vertical


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

I wouldn't say eSata was high end...pretty much any consumer external hard drive case these days ships with eSata and USB...some have firewire 400 and fewer still have FW800. I would love to have access to eSata


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## Mckitrick (Dec 25, 2005)

They've Fixed it.

It's $165 more for the 512M Video card.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Andrew Pratt said:


> I wouldn't say eSata was high end...pretty much any consumer external hard drive case these days ships with eSata and USB...some have firewire 400 and fewer still have FW800. I would love to have access to eSata


Totally agree. eSATA is not high end, it is very commonplace now. I think FF needs to do a little research before saying that 90% of consumers don't even know what it is.  Maybe in the geriatric computing crowd... The point is it is the fastest external bus you can have, would it kill Apple to include at least one eSATA port. Even "consumers" appreciate speed. What is the point in pumping up your processor speeds if you get bottlenecked when reading and writing from your external drive. They have been missing the boat...er uhmm, bus on eSATA for years now.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Wonder what the colour depth is.
> Sure makes an already ludicrous 24" Apple Monitor downright silly.


Just read the MacWorld first look article - and they say:



Macworld.com said:


> an Apple representative confirmed that both the 21.5- and the 27-inch iMacs use 8-bit displays.


SOURCE: First look: New iMacs (Fall 2009) | Desktop | Macworld


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

screature said:


> Totally agree. eSATA is not high end, it is very commonplace now. I think FF needs to do a little research before saying that 90% of consumers don't even know what it is.  Maybe in the geriatric computing crowd...


I agree that eSATA would have been great - but in my mind, the "general Consumer" is the 90% that use windows - and at least half of those who use their macbooks for nothing but YouTube/Facebook/Email/Word

And if you want research...

A quick check of External HDDs at BestBuy.ca lists over 50 different options. How many of them have eSATA? Other than the DVR Expander - there's *one*. The WD MyBook Home 1.5TB. Only one out of 50 models have eSATA. And that model also has USB 2.0 and FW400, so I bet half the people who buy that one use it with something other than eSATA. 

So where are the joe-blow consumers getting all this eSATA fever from?




screature said:


> The point is it is the fastest external bus you can have, would it kill Apple to include at least one eSATA port. Even "consumers" appreciate speed. What is the point in pumping up your processor speeds if you get bottlenecked when reading and writing from your external drive. They have been missing the boat...er uhmm, bus on eSATA for years now.


I totally agree. I just think that eSATA would be amazing for the 10% that might use it, and totally useless for the 90% (again, IMHO) that don't. Apple's just playing the Odds... and upselling too! 

If you think about it, it's a huge win-win business decision for Apple. They don't have to pay the extra cost to include eSATA/Market what eSATA is on the macs, and If you need eSata, get a MBP with expresscard (17" Only), or a MacPro - where they make huge $$$ from you.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fyrefly said:


> I agree that eSATA would have been great - but in my mind, the "general Consumer" is the 90% that use windows - and at least half of those who use their macbooks for nothing but YouTube/Facebook/Email/Word
> 
> And if you want research...
> 
> ...


Well your research is certainly limited by only looking at what BestBuy offers, 'cause we all know they have such great product offerings. 

A little research of my own at PCCyber, a PC retailer/online retailer with 5 locations in Ottawa offer 70 External drive enclosures with 28 of them having eSATA that is 40% of their offerings having eSATA. Also a white paper released by Serial ATA.org states:



> The new external interface is catching on. “eSATA penetration in retail PCs is about 15%, and there is a similar penetration into external storage boxes,” reports Thomas Coughlin of Coughlin Associates.
> “Channel motherboard penetration (an indication of future developments) has eSATA penetration as high as 60%. By 2008, retail computer and external box penetration could increase to 25% or more.”


This was data for 2008.

Again the fact (as you acknowledged) is that eSATA is the fastest external bus you can currently have. Since when is Apple supposed to be so pedestrian as to cater to only the lowest common denominator. It is a sad day when Apple would only promote a bus that they have a vested interest in (i.e. Firewire) and not simply what is best/fastest. How much would it cost them on a per unit basis to put in an eSATA port? A few bucks tops. 

I certainly know many, many, PC owners who have become accustomed to the speed of eSATA and are put off by the fact that the iMacs lack an eSATA port. For the sake of few bucks why not increase your potential market penetration, ESPECIALLY when they are now offering a 27" quad core i7 iMac which is hardly a standard "consumer" offering and clearly trying to be positioned as a "prosumer" product. The lack of eSATA, at least on this iMac offering, is just plain dumb.



fyrefly said:


> If you think about it, it's a huge win-win business decision for Apple. They don't have to pay the extra cost to include eSATA/Market what eSATA is on the macs, and If you need eSata, get a MBP with expresscard (17" Only), or a MacPro - where they make huge $$$ from you.


Yeah because if you can't get eSATA you are going to pay HUGE bucks just to have it. Not likely, more likely if not having it is a deal breaker you will go with a PC or a Hackintosh.


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## imobile (Oct 6, 2007)

*They don't only ship wireless peripherals ..*



mkolesa said:


> i think the apple wireless keyboard and mouse work fine, but the fact is that when i go to change the batteries i usually have to toggle the bluetooth on/off or select to connect the peripheral in the bluetooth menu to get it to connect again which means you still need your wired keyboard and mouse just for that (i'm not alone, my brother has the same complaint). so i have no idea how they can ship only the wireless keyboard & mouse now without having the same prob when it's time for a battery swap...



Read the info...you can opt for the clutter at 'order time' at no additional cost!


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2009)

> If you want "professional" - Apple says you have to buy a $2700+ MacPro. If you don't like it - go buy something else - Apple's still making record profits.


That's exactly the point I was trying to make. A LOT of people look at that option and in fact do go buy something else (like hackintoshes or windows boxes). 

Put it this way ... how many "consumers" out there do you know that would like to have a more "professional" based setup? (pretty much everyone I know with a bit of computer knowledge would like that upgrade, but maybe that's just me) There's been a huge insurgence of something called "Prosumer" for years now, and everyone is jumping on the band wagon, except Apple. An iMac is _not_ a prosumer machine IMHO and a mac pro is too much money for most of these users' budgets. They end up not purchasing from Apple and going elsewhere with their hardware dollars.

As for the eSata arguments I think screature has summed it up pretty well. It's getting harder and harder to find any drive enclosures around here with FW800 at all. Lots are USB only, but anything that offers more than USB these days pretty much is eSata, and the options of eSata on OSX are slim to none -- even on Mac Pros!


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

mguertin said:


> ...and the options of eSata on OSX are slim to none -- even on Mac Pros!


None, straight out of the box. Really, really dumb!!


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## imobile (Oct 6, 2007)

*Firewire 800 hard to find...?*



mguertin said:


> That's exactly the point I was trying to make. A LOT of people look at that option and in fact do go buy something else (like hackintoshes or windows boxes).
> 
> Put it this way ... how many "consumers" out there do you know that would like to have a more "professional" based setup? (pretty much everyone I know with a bit of computer knowledge would like that upgrade, but maybe that's just me) There's been a huge insurgence of something called "Prosumer" for years now, and everyone is jumping on the band wagon, except Apple. An iMac is _not_ a prosumer machine IMHO and a mac pro is too much money for most of these users' budgets. They end up not purchasing from Apple and going elsewhere with their hardware dollars.
> 
> As for the eSata arguments I think screature has summed it up pretty well. It's getting harder and harder to find any drive enclosures around here with FW800 at all. Lots are USB only, but anything that offers more than USB these days pretty much is eSata, and the options of eSata on OSX are slim to none -- even on Mac Pros!


Sweeping generalizations I fear!
Google is your friend...

La Cie, My Book, Verbatim, Maxtor, G Tech, Iomega, OWC to mention a few.
Their 'top' models offer all.... 400/800/USB2/eSata


As for the 'hardware dollars going elsewhere .... ( wish more would go to Dell...my shares there are less half that I paid back in 2004 ) .... fair enough but the last quarter results show more than enough are going to Cupertino! ( my shares there look happy!  
And look at the share price today and the band waggon AnAl ysts projections!


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

imobile said:


> Sweeping generalizations I fear!
> Google is your friend...
> 
> La Cie, My Book, Verbatim, Maxtor, G Tech, Iomega, OWC to mention a few.
> Their 'top' models offer all.... 400/800/USB2/eSata


If you want to pay a premium for brand name external drives. mguertin was referring to external enclosure offerings where you buy the enclosure and put in your own drive , which is BY FAR the most cost effective way to buy an external drive. I never, never, never buy a brand name pre-built external drive anymore, it is the best way to be ripped off for nothing more than marketing.


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## imobile (Oct 6, 2007)

*Okay ..... fair enough if he meant enclosures!*



screature said:


> If you want to pay a premium for brand name external drives. mguertin was referring to external enclosure offerings where you buy the enclosure and put in your own drive , which is BY FAR the most cost effective way to buy an external drive. I never, never, never buy a brand name pre-built external drive anymore, it is the best way to be ripped off for nothing more than marketing.



I guess if you lay out $$$$$ for an iMac and a MBP , the relatively few $ for a 'rip off' external is not a big deal.

OWC Mercury Elite Pro Classic Portable Solutions

Why they even sell the enclosure! 
OWC Mercury Elite Pro "Classic"
Quad Interface eSATA/FW800/FW400/USB 2.0&1.1 Enclosure Kit

( $US84 )

My OWC has been purring for five years, my MyBook nearly four!

And the OWC case is 'screwed', not 'pressed' as is case with My Book, so a replacement HD should be possible no?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

imobile said:


> I guess if you lay out $$$$$ for an iMac and a MBP , the relatively few $ for a 'rip off' external is not a big deal.
> 
> OWC Mercury Elite Pro Classic Portable Solutions
> 
> ...


Why pay more than you have to for something particularly when you have the option for YOU to decide what drive goes inside? OWC products are generally very good don't get me wrong, but relative to the vast number of 3rd party manufactures out there and those that you cited, they are a VERY small part of the options available and mguertian is not wrong that there are fewer and fewer options for Firewire and particularly Firewire 800 (not that there were that many to begin with for Firewire 800) that is really all I was trying to say.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

screature said:


> Well your research is certainly limited by only looking at what BestBuy offers, 'cause we all know they have such great product offerings.
> 
> A little research of my own at PCCyber, a PC retailer/online retailer with 5 locations in Ottawa offer 70 External drive enclosures with 28 of them having eSATA that is 40% of their offerings having eSATA.


Let me be totally clear - I'm saying I agree with Apple's decision, I'm just saying it probably makes sense as they want to get with the joblow consumers. It's not a *smart* choice, but Regular Joes don't go to computer stores - they go to BB/FS to get their tech stuff. 

I live DT Toronto, and there are 5x the people in FS/BB at yonge/Dundas than there are at ANY of the computer stores on the weekend. So while it's great that there's a lot of eSATA selection at a computer store - a regular joe will not care. 

And your own research said eSATA was *available* on 15% of PCs. And not all of that 15% will use it, so we're pretty darn close to my 90% of people not giving a flying fig about eSATA. 

Again, not disagreeing that some people will use it - just saying that lots will not.



screature said:


> Since when is Apple supposed to be so pedestrian as to cater to only the lowest common denominator. It is a sad day when Apple would only promote a bus that they have a vested interest in (i.e. Firewire) and not simply what is best/fastest. How much would it cost them on a per unit basis to put in an eSATA port? A few bucks tops.


Apple is never one to NOT stoop to only promoting their own self-interest. This is the company that is the rumoured creator of Lightpeak - the new A/V/Data transmission thing they brought to Intel. They want Lightpeak. Not eSATA. Case in point: Apple also hasn't adopted Blu-Ray, despite it being a clear market winner. Why? 'Cause they want people to download iTunes, and they're hoping iTunes and HD Downloads in general take off before they need to worry about the "bag of hurt" that Steve Jobs famously called Blue-Ray. 

It's not awesome, I'm with you... but it's typical Apple.



screature said:


> Yeah because if you can't get eSATA you are going to pay HUGE bucks just to have it. Not likely, more likely if not having it is a deal breaker you will go with a PC or a Hackintosh.


Again - Apple made record breaking profits. If you don't like their line-up... you have two options. Put up. Or... buy a PC  . And it seems lots of people like their options.


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## napoleon1769 (May 8, 2009)

I just wish there was a quality enclosure period. I've bought pretty much every aluminum one from Newegg and and there's always something wrong with it whether it's loud vibrations, cheap metal, or poor ventilation. The best enclosure that I've ever had came from an Acomdata 80gb IDE drive that included 1394a that I bought for $100 after rebate when similiar drives went for $200. It has a fan, and heavy brushed aluminum that barely vibrated. Too bad they don't have a esata version.

AcomData | E5 External Hard Drives - USB 2.0 & FireWire 400 - w/PushButton? Backup


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

Hey how long does one think the laptop quality gpu would last in a 27" iMac Top o' the line with the i7 for Gaming/Photoshop? A Year?


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2009)

I have 2 OWC enclosures here that are total crap (power supply issues). I've had several Lacie enclosures that fall into the same category as well. In fact I've never had a Lacie or OWC based enclosure that lasted more than a year or two (they somehow all manage to fail just after the warranty runs out, go figure).

For any naysayers that think Apple is not losing out on sales because they don't offer a reasonably priced headless machine that is easily upgradable google is your friend too ... google up hackintosh and see how many hits you get. If Apple offered a reasonably priced alternative that would allow them to easily upgrade/add drives, PCIe cards, video cards, or choose their own monitors how many of these people building hackintoshes do you think would choose Apple hardware? I think a LOT would. maybe I'm wrong (but I don't think so).

As far as downtown Toronto walk into just about ANY computer store (not big box store like Futureshop or Best Buy) and ask how many firewire 800 enclosures they have. If you're lucky they might have one -- or they might look at you funny and ask why you want FW800 and suggest that eSata is a lot better. Then ask how many eSata enclosures they have. I'm not talking about the average joe schmoe computer user here that shops at big box stores for hard drives, I'm talking about prosumer users. The ones that build hackintoshes -- the ones that like to do things like either choose their own or upgrade their video card occasionally, the ones that know they are getting better value for their $$ than walking into a big box store and paying a premium for drives in enclosures.

Apple currently has a HUGE division between consumer (joe schmoe) hardware (iMac, macbook, mac mini) and "pro" hardware (mac pro, macbook pro) and nothing in between. Sadly I'd have to think that a HUGE part of the computer market falls into that in-between category that Apple is currently not catering to. Their pro hardware offerings are great, but have "pro" pricing that people are often unwilling to pay if they don't use their machine to make a living (and even if they do).

I'm not saying that Apple is not making record-breaking profits here ... what I'm saying is that they could make even more profit if they chose to round out their lineup a little and fill in the blanks.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> And your own research said eSATA was *available* on 15% of PCs. And not all of that 15% will use it, so we're pretty darn close to my 90% of people not giving a flying fig about eSATA.


i have been working at a GTA area AASP and reseller for 6 months and i have had precisely *one* person ask about connecting an eSATA device to their mac in that time. 



> As far as downtown Toronto walk into just about ANY computer store (not big box store like Futureshop or Best Buy) and ask how many firewire 800 enclosures they have. If you're lucky they might have one -- or they might look at you funny and ask why you want FW800 and suggest that eSata is a lot better. Then ask how many eSata enclosures they have. I'm not talking about the average joe schmoe computer user here that shops at big box stores for hard drives, I'm talking about prosumer users. The ones that build hackintoshes -- the ones that like to do things like either choose their own or upgrade their video card occasionally, the ones that know they are getting better value for their $$ than walking into a big box store and paying a premium for drives in enclosures.



these people are the exceptions rather than the rule though. for every one person who is comfortable with the idea of building an external drive from an enclosure and a drive there are probably 10 who would recoil in horror at the suggestion of it, even with step by step illustrated instructions. apple is not catering to the people who go looking to save $20 on a drive by shopping at college and spadina, they are catering to the people who want the simplest possible solution and, based on their earnings, its working.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Thanks for the backup, broad. 

and mguertin - you're responding to a discussion I was having with Screature, who oddly is making opposite arguements than you to arrive at the same conclusion. He's saying iMac is not a prosumer machine and you're saying it is. 

And your point about Hackintoshes is well-taken. But even if Apple did make a "headless" iMac for say $800-$1500, those who hackintosh would still hackintosh 'cause they could build the same or better-spec'd hackintoshes for $400-$1000. Apple makes products designed for simple, specific purposes. They're becoming more and more of a "media" company every day. And the iMac is the perfect machine to enjoy media, surf the net, and make little home movies on. No eSATA required for any of that (especially with a 1TB drive standard!  ).


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## Commodus (May 10, 2005)

Chas3 said:


> No Upgradeable Video Card (IE only 512mb, I want a Gtx 260 or 295  ) = No Sale.


Neither the GTX 260 nor the GTX 295 consumes low enough power to have a hope of fitting in that case!

That said, I would have hoped for a Radeon HD 5770 or even 5850 in that enclosure.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2009)

fyrefly said:


> Thanks for the backup, broad.
> 
> and mguertin - you're responding to a discussion I was having with Screature, who oddly is making opposite arguements than you to arrive at the same conclusion. He's saying iMac is not a prosumer machine and you're saying it is.
> 
> And your point about Hackintoshes is well-taken. But even if Apple did make a "headless" iMac for say $800-$1500, those who hackintosh would still hackintosh 'cause they could build the same or better-spec'd hackintoshes for $400-$1000. Apple makes products designed for simple, specific purposes. They're becoming more and more of a "media" company every day. And the iMac is the perfect machine to enjoy media, surf the net, and make little home movies on. No eSATA required for any of that (especially with a 1TB drive standard!  ).


Actually you have it backwards  screature said the high end imac is a prosumer machine, I didn't 

As you say the iMac is the perfect machine to surf the net and make little home movies on but again the market I'm talking about is NOT this market (that's consumer not prosumer). The market I'm talking about want to make BIG home movies and run 20 apps at once and not be stuck with a glossy screen that works almost as well as a mirror as it does a monitor  I'm not sure that there would be as much in the way of people building hackintoshes if they had a choice to buy apple hardware that suits their needs, but I guess our opinions on this differ. Some would still build hackintoshes for sure, but I think a good portion of them would simply buy the Apple solution that would work well, give them the flexibility they want and most importantly they wouldn''t have to jump through hoops to install their OS of choice on.

@broad: Yes Apple is catering to those people and that is exactly my point -- again -- end consumers. If no one does this why are there so many computer stores at college and spadina and why are they always busy? By your numbers they are missing at least 10% computer users by not providing upgradeable headless hardware (I think it's much more than that, but again differing opinions)

I'll let things drop, we've derailed this thread enough at this point and we all have our own opinions. I will say this in parting though ... 

If Apple ever saw fit to build said machine I, personally, would likely own several and my clients would likely own *many* of them. I went through all of this with a client today as we were looking at hardware options. The mini is not enough, the iMac is totally the wrong form factor for their needs and mac pros are too expensive. That means that they will instead be giving their money to Dell for 4 replacement machines ... again.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

Commodus said:


> Neither the GTX 260 nor the GTX 295 consumes low enough power to have a hope of fitting in that case!
> 
> That said, I would have hoped for a Radeon HD 5770 or even 5850 in that enclosure.


One can dream, ill just have to eventually go for the pro.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

All I'll say about this is that I definitely feel the iMac is now most definitely a "prosumer" machine.

As for people who want more options than the iMac provides, my gut feeling is that the next major revision of the Mac Pro (which I speculate is coming in spring, waaaaay overdue) will focus on lowering the cost and may be more pleasing (you can never really please the pro crowd).


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

I could go for a price drop on the 8 Core. The i7 is a cheaper chip, why would the price go up for the 8 core? (And why would apple cripple the quad core with 16gb max ram)


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## Spammajamma (Oct 17, 2009)

now its getting more like its competitor windows. Its odd windows is becomng like a mac and vv. LOL a hybrid jk


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## Izzy (Apr 14, 2008)

mguertin said:


> If Apple ever saw fit to build said machine I, personally, would likely own several and my clients would likely own *many* of them. I went through all of this with a client today as we were looking at hardware options. The mini is not enough, the iMac is totally the wrong form factor for their needs and mac pros are too expensive. That means that they will instead be giving their money to Dell for 4 replacement machines ... again.


It comes down to profits and business strategy. Apple's profit margin last quarter was 36.6%, Dell's was 18.11%. Apple's software sales certainly helps its margin but I think it's safe to say they make more gross margin per computer than Dell does. Apple occupies the premium end of the computer market while Dell slugs it out in the low-cost commodity end of the market. Apple wants to make money more than it wants to sell a high volume of computers. If they sold a headless iMac, they would have to price it at such a level that they couldn't get their standard level of margin. It would also commoditize the Apple brand and make it more difficult to sell the other product lines at a premium level. 

Apple doesn't have a netbook offering for many of the same reasons. They'll continue to pick the market segments they want to be in very carefully. 

I'm not saying a prosumer model wouldn't be cool but I think this is the rational Apple uses.


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## jeepguy (Apr 4, 2008)

mguertin said:


> As far as downtown Toronto walk into just about ANY computer store (not big box store like Futureshop or Best Buy) and ask how many firewire 800 enclosures they have. If you're lucky they might have one -- or they might look at you funny and ask why you want FW800 and suggest that eSata is a lot better. Then ask how many eSata enclosures they have. I'm not talking about the average joe schmoe computer user here that shops at big box stores for hard drives, I'm talking about prosumer users. The ones that build hackintoshes -- the ones that like to do things like either choose their own or upgrade their video card occasionally, the ones that know they are getting better value for their $$ than walking into a big box store and paying a premium for drives in enclosures.


I just went through this, I couldn't find one locally, so I ended up just getting a FW400/E-SATA/USB, I could have ordered one online, but I needed it right away. I'm even thinking of removing my internal burner and extending the cable out so I can get E-SATA.

This normally wouldn't be a problem, but I rip my Blu-rays to my hard drives, and moving that data around ends up being a real pain.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fyrefly said:


> Again - Apple made record breaking profits. If you don't like their line-up... you have two options. Put up. Or... buy a PC  . And it seems lots of people like their options.


Record breaking because of the iPhone, computer sales were only up 4% over a year ago. Look we all like Macs here, that's why we are here, but it doesn't mean we can't be critical of some of their decisions.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

broad said:


> i have been working at a GTA area AASP and reseller for 6 months and i have had precisely *one* person ask about connecting an eSATA device to their mac in that time.


Uhmmm, maybe because they don't have eSATA ports.


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