# Done with Mavericks



## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Going back to Mountain Lion as we speak. First time I've ever given up on a mac OS but I just don't like it. Can't stand the new labels in Finder. Chrome continually craps out on me since updating. In trying to diagnose that issue I found that you can no longer copy selected text in Console, just the entire section. Why? Activity Monitor has also taken a giant step backwards. Booting in Safe Mode takes about 10 minutes. And why does Apple insist on hiding the user library?? I know its hidden in ML, but I'd done something long ago to make it visible again. Overall Mavericks just made my MBP feel old.

I'm done, who's with me?


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

andreww said:


> Going back to Mountain Lion as we speak. First time I've ever given up on a mac OS but I just don't like it. Can't stand the new labels in Finder. Chrome continually craps out on me since updating. In trying to diagnose that issue I found that you can no longer copy selected text in Console, just the entire section. Why? Activity Monitor has also taken a giant step backwards. Booting in Safe Mode takes about 10 minutes. And why does Apple insist on hiding the user library?? I know its hidden in ML, but I'd done something long ago to make it visible again. Overall Mavericks just made my MBP feel old.
> 
> I'm done, who's with me?



Copying from Console works for me.
Why are you booting to safe mode often enough that the boot time is an issue?
Hidden Library stops users from deleting files that they think they don't need. It's a good thing, and also easy to undo.
Chrome is just fine on my computers.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Biggest problem is that Chrome keeps doing this....










ever since I started using Mavericks.


The only way I found to resolve the issue was to boot in safe mode (where Chrome works) and log out of my Google account. Then reboot and log back in to Google. So yes, I've had to do it several times over the last few months,

In Console, can you highlight and copy half a line? I was only able to copy a full line.

Hiding the User library makes no sense, especially when the main Library and System folders are in full view.

Chrome is fine on lots of peoples computers, but it isn't on mine (and lots of other peoples) after Mavericks. Possibly a hardware/software incompatibility, who knows. Just because you don't have an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


The frustrating thing with Chrome is that all the prefs are web based, meaning you can't do anything to fix it when it breaks. Only option is to delete the app and all associated files which happen to be HIDDEN and do not even show up in Spotlight.

Sorry, Apples latest efforts are geared towards people who know absolutely nothing about computers, with all sorts of safeguards being built in to stop them from hurting themselves.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

andreww said:


> In Console, can you highlight and copy half a line? I was only able to copy a full line.
> 
> Hiding the User library makes no sense, especially when the main Library and System folders are in full view.


Not sure about copying half a line, but copying a full line isn't the end of the world. More often than not, I need the full line anyway.

Hiding the user Library makes a lot of sense - the main Library and System folders are both read-only to users, whereas the user Library must be read/write by definition. If a user wants to delete something from the System folder, they'll have to enter their password. There's no way to do the same with the user Library.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

You may want to delete Chrome (and its supporting data in ~/Library if applicable) and reinstall. The issue with Chrome definitely isn't relevant to Mavericks. I use Chrome in Mavericks without issue. Booting into Safe Mode to get Chrome working is just ridiculous.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

monokitty said:


> You may want to delete Chrome (and its supporting data in ~/Library if applicable) and reinstall. The issue with Chrome definitely isn't relevant to Mavericks. I use Chrome in Mavericks without issue. Booting into Safe Mode to get Chrome working is just ridiculous.


Yes I did that. I removed every piece of chrome then reinstalled. Same issue. And if booting in safe mode to get it working is ridiculous, what would you suggest? BTW, I've got about 15 years of mac tech support under my belt so I'm not exactly an amateur at this kind of thing.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Obviously I make it a habit to be at least an OS or two behind the times. 

My question here is if Chrome is causing you so many headaches why not just use a different browser? I am guessing there is something that Chrome does enough better than other browsers that makes it more or less mandatory for you?

That said I completely agree that a ten minute boot to safe mode is obscene. The 2 or 3 minutes it took DiskWarrior to boot (in the PPC era) drove me bonkers.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

I was just saying that needing to do all of that just to get Chrome working is so bizarre. 

I assume you've reinstalled Mavericks and/or did a clean install? What about in another user account?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

For the record, I did a clean install and have none of the issues mentioned either.


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

I reverted back to ML one day after installing mavericks. It was not because I disliked anything in Mavericks, it just did not work with one specific device at work that I need it to work with. Seems to be no solutions that work for me as of yet and it might mean I stay locked in with Mavericks for years until I am either forced to upgrade our machine or there is some work around that is fits in with our work flow.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

monokitty said:


> I was just saying that needing to do all of that just to get Chrome working is so bizarre.
> 
> I assume you've reinstalled Mavericks and/or did a clean install? What about in another user account?


Worked in another user account. But it has worked for stretches of a week or so in my account as well. Nonetheless, I removed all startup items from my account, removed and reinstalled chrome, rebooted.... and no change. The message I was getting in console said something about a sandbox error. Googling that, I found that others had this issue although it wasn't widespread. So it could be a problem specific to certain machines, who knows.

Anyway, I think its the first time in my career where I have not been able to fix a specific issue


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

andreww said:


> Worked in another user account. But it has worked for stretches of a week or so in my account as well. Nonetheless, I removed all startup items from my account, removed and reinstalled chrome, rebooted.... and no change. The message I was getting in console said something about a sandbox error. Googling that, I found that others had this issue although it wasn't widespread. So it could be a problem specific to certain machines, who knows.
> 
> Anyway, I think its the first time in my career where I have not been able to fix a specific issue


I understand the frustration.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

FWIW, I'm sticking with, but suffering with, Mavericks. Lots of little sniggling problems:

- Horrible Finder performance
- Mail loses focus - e.g., try to scroll using my trackpad in a message, and I can see the main mailbox scrolling in the background. 
- Dragging attachments from Mail to the Finder is a two- or three- effort process. NEVER works on first try.

I'm trying to find free time in my schedule to reinstall the OS, see if that helps (troubleshooting / maintenance / Onyx / .plist trashing - nothing has helped).


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> FWIW, I'm sticking with, but suffering with, Mavericks. Lots of little sniggling problems:
> 
> - Dragging attachments from Mail to the Finder is a two- or three- effort process. NEVER works on first try.


I finally figured out this one CM. When you drag an image out of Mail to the desktop, grab the image with the pointer in the upper left corner of the image. It will drag properly every time! I stumbled upon this by chance, but it works for me.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

SINC, thanks for the tip - but I'm using Mail Attachment Tamer (it "iconizes" oversize files in Mail's windows), so this doesn't work for me. (FYI, I've removed MTA during my troubleshooting efforts and found it to have no adverse effect. I've reinstalled it, as I prefer to have my attachments "iconized"


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

can't you just secondary click on the attachment and save it to your desktop?


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

To show your Library folder in Mavericks is to go into your Finder prefs under View Options and selecting Show Library folder. How easier could that be? One step closer to hanging on to Mavericks. I find that Mail acts up on occasion. I also see quick spinning beach balls once in a while but nothing to convince me to go back to ML.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

csonni said:


> I also see quick spinning beach balls once in a while but nothing to convince me to go back to ML.


I think the quick spinning beach balls is the memory compression feature of Mavericks, Although I'm not 100% on that.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

These are the kinds of things that were getting to me. Obviously the Chrome issue was the major factor, but the slow finder performance was another thing. I'd kind of gotten used to it, but now that I've reverted to ML I can really appreciate how slow it was. And I absolutely couldn't stand how they changed the labels to being a tiny dot on the far right. In my freelance work folder I keep adding notes to the names of the folders with info as to what I've done and how much I'm owed. Paid jobs are green, unpaid are red. Some of the folder names are quite lengthly, so when I expand the column enough to read everything, those dots are so far away from the shorter named folders that its impossible to tell which dot applies to which folder. And with those dots being so small, its impossible to distinguish the yellow from the green unless you are in optimal lighting. I keep getting software update notifications that you cant dismiss without launching the app store. And I liked the old software update better! Other than being able to tab the finder, I really didn't find anything that I actually liked better about it.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

csonni said:


> To show your Library folder in Mavericks is to go into your Finder prefs under View Options and selecting Show Library folder. How easier could that be? One step closer to hanging on to Mavericks. I find that Mail acts up on occasion. I also see quick spinning beach balls once in a while but nothing to convince me to go back to ML.


Didn't notice that option. But I did notice those beachballs from time to time. Never had those in ML.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I'm in beachball hell. Hoping that a memory upgrade (next paycheque?) will address that.

And I'm in complete agreement on the new labels implementation (tags). Those stupid little dots that seem totally disassociated with the file to which they are applied... who thought that was a good idea?


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> I'm in beachball hell. Hoping that a memory upgrade (next paycheque?) will address that.
> 
> And I'm in complete agreement on the new labels implementation (tags). Those stupid little dots that seem totally disassociated with the file to which they are applied... who thought that was a good idea?


How much RAM do you have?

I've found that any less than 8GB and it slows to a crawl.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

Not the first time I post this here, but during the last 4 months I've experienced Safari to be an utter resource hog. Read the same about FireFox, too.
I myself am at fault, too, because I always leave a myriad of tabs open, but hey... is this 2014 or what?
Apart from clearing the browser cache from time to time, I find it very helpful to drastically kill Safari Web Content in the main window of Activity Monitor with the stop button in the upper left corner. Usually frees up ±1 GB for some time. And I only have 2 GB...
And no, I'm not on Mav (yet).


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

I hate to be an almost "me too", but I decided for the new year that I'd give the latest Mac OS X another chance and try. Otherwise it's back to SL, as I didn't like any of the previous Lions and they offered me nothing new that didn't work better in SL.

At least most of the suff is working with my mid-late 2011 27" iMac with 20GB RAM, but I sure don't like some of the changes such as:

- the user GUI is like being in a thick grey fog in a grey graveyard and almost no color.
- the multiple clicks needed when only one or maybe two were needed previously.
- the Finder is so slooooow too often. My SL volume is consistantly waaay faster.
- the inconsistency in the Finder and Applications windows.
- the popup Cheshire Cat type of icons to do..??? 
- the occasional quick spinning beach balls for no apparent reason.
- the labels or tabs color labelling with the small color dot is someone's idea of a sick joke.
- the mouse cursor not changing correctly from I-beam to Pointer for example.
and I could go on.

But there are some new features, even if they are hidden and not obvious, are handy, but awkward to control, and the Help is almost more of a useless joke that ever before.

I wonder if the Mavericks quirks are due to Jonathan Ive and his leadership with the OS X lately??

Anyway, I'll keep giving it a try for a while longer, but I don't know how much longer, and I'm sorry I don't have much constructive help to offer.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Well now - odd as it might seem, I'm feeling better knowing that my compadres here at ehMac are sharing my woes. 

pm-r - your list mirrors my own experiences exactly.

John Clay - yeah, 4gigs (EDIT - 4megs - what was I thinking?). I had just blown my upgrades budget on a memory boost for my previous MacBook (non-pro) Unibody when the chance to pick up this baby came along... and of course, the ram chips were incompatible with the new model. So my wife has a better performing system than I do... go figure.

hexdiy - we are similar creatures. I've never been able to feel comfortable in FireFox or Chrome, and Safari still can't handle (memory-wise) as many tabs as I usually like to have open. But Safari isn't the only thing that is impacting on my system performance, which remains mediocre even if Safari isn't running (but with Safari open, I frequently have often minutes-long waits for the system to recover).

So - memory upgrade is the next step. I also need replacement keys - good thing I'm a touch-typist. It's also a helpful semi-security measure, as pretty much no-one else can easily use my laptop without spending a lot of time looking for letters...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

csonni said:


> To show your Library folder in Mavericks is to go into your Finder prefs under View Options and selecting Show Library folder. How easier could that be? One step closer to hanging on to Mavericks. I find that Mail acts up on occasion. I also see quick spinning beach balls once in a while but nothing to convince me to go back to ML.


This option does not exist in Mavericks on my MBP, what's with that?


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

hexdiy said:


> Not the first time I post this here, but during the last 4 months I've experienced Safari to be an utter resource hog. Read the same about FireFox, too.
> I myself am at fault, too, because I always leave a myriad of tabs open, but hey... is this 2014 or what?
> Apart from clearing the browser cache from time to time, I find it very helpful to drastically kill Safari Web Content in the main window of Activity Monitor with the stop button in the upper left corner. Usually frees up ±1 GB for some time. And I only have 2 GB...
> And no, I'm not on Mav (yet).


You can't run anything newer than 10.6 on 4gb or less and expect it to be useable. I don't even like them with under 8 unless you're on an ssd.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

Bug lately trying to upload images from my desktop gives me the beach ball,
Have to up load from the hard drive lately instead.

Edit, Seems to work today without beach ball,
Seems to be a sporadic problem.

I have 16 gb's of RAM


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

SINC said:


> This option does not exist in Mavericks on my MBP, what's with that?


Csonni's instructions aren't quite correct - it's not the Finder Prefs you want, but the VIEW prefs in your home folder.

In the Finder, highlight your home folder.

Still in the Finder, choose View > Show View Options

Near the bottom of the View-Options palette is a setting called Show Library Folder. Check the check box and voila. Your Library folder contents are now visible.

(You only have to do it once, so it's easy to forget the subtleties!  )

Even though it might seem to make more sense if that show library option was in the Finder prefs, putting it in the home folder view options so that it only applies to the particular user maintains the ability to keep things more locked down for other less savvy users.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Paddy beat me to it... I've just spent the last 15 minutes with beachballs and freeze-ups trying to find the option - and he's right, it's easy to forget - because Apple didn't put it in a logical spot, like Finder--> Preferences. Sigh. If you need more detail with imagery, MacObserver has the step-by-step.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

broad said:


> You can't run anything newer than 10.6 on 4gb or less and expect it to be useable. I don't even like them with under 8 unless you're on an ssd.


This.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

By the way - it shouldn't have to be said, but it's a useful reminder - third-party software always has the potential to introduce problems. 

Since our Canon point-and-shoot died a horrible, crushing death, and my big Canon isn't exactly convenient, we've resorted to using my wife's Blackberry and its surprisingly good camera for shots of our adorable little monster's antics.

OS X will not recognize the BB as an external disk, so we can't just mount it and pull off the images we want. Nor will iPhoto recognize it. The only way to access the stored data is to have BB's own Desktop Manager software installed. Once it's installed, the BB will mount as a disk. It will also annoyingly auto-launch the DM software too, but you don't need to use it for synching (in fact, I highly recommend against it).

All of this to say that I suspect the BB DM software of being one culprit in my laptop's current state of unreliability. I frequently (like, four times in the last hour) get the damn *RimAlbumArtDaemon Unexpectedly Quit* error. It's a common issue, apparently. No solution that I've found, apart from uninstalling it using the installer's uninstall feature... and even then you need to resort to the terminal to really clean out the crap.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

Er...I'm not a "he"...


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

Or just go into finder prefs>Sidebar>click the boxes
I have all of the boxes clicked to make everything visible in the sidebar.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> Well now - odd as it might seem, I'm feeling better knowing that my compadres here at ehMac are sharing my woes.
> 
> pm-r - your list mirrors my own experiences exactly.
> ... ... ...



Bummer isn't it, and as I said, I could go on and list many other oddities and weird quirks or loss of functions and features even SL has.

But unfortunately my gut feeling is it's not going to get much better, and may even get worse until Apple reverses its decision to have Jonathan Ive given and assumed leadership of Apple's Human Interface team.

It seems to me that is when the Mac OS X started going downhill - even though it added some new features.

Maybe send their precious Johnny on an extended sabbatical or at least removed from any Mac OS X involvement - and maybe iOS as well and maybe we could have some good Apple OS designers back to do things properly!!


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

CubaMark said:


> By the way - it shouldn't have to be said, but it's a useful reminder - third-party software always has the potential to introduce problems.
> 
> Since our Canon point-and-shoot died a horrible, crushing death, and my big Canon isn't exactly convenient, we've resorted to using my wife's Blackberry and its surprisingly good camera for shots of our adorable little monster's antics.
> 
> ...


That BB software is terrible. when I come across an extremely slow running mac at work, that's one of the first things I look for.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Paddy said:


> Csonni's instructions aren't quite correct - it's not the Finder Prefs you want, but the VIEW prefs in your home folder.
> 
> In the Finder, highlight your home folder.
> 
> ...


Ah, thanks, that's easy.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> All of this to say that I suspect the BB DM software of being one culprit in my laptop's current state of unreliability. I frequently (like, four times in the last hour) get the damn *RimAlbumArtDaemon Unexpectedly Quit* error. It's a common issue, apparently. No solution that I've found, apart from uninstalling it using the installer's uninstall feature... and even then you need to resort to the terminal to really clean out the crap.


Why not just email the pics taken on the Blackberry to your Mac account and ditch the software?


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

pm-r said:


> Bummer isn't it, and as I said, I could go on and list many other oddities and weird quirks or loss of functions and features even SL has.
> 
> But unfortunately my gut feeling is it's not going to get much better, and may even get worse until Apple reverses its decision to have Jonathan Ive given and assumed leadership of Apple's Human Interface team.
> 
> ...


Snow Leopard was probably the last decent OS Apple put out. Seriously, the majority of the machines in my office are running SL and I have no plans to update them. Some of the things Apple does these days are just beyond me, like the introduction of reverse scrolling for example. Everybody on the planet used normal scrolling up until that point, yet in Lion (I believe) they decided to set reverse scroll as the default. Why would they do that? Getting rid of the Save As option in all their apps? Why? Hiding the Library? Why? Screwing up Labels? Who in their right mind sat down and said "yeah, that works better!"? Up until SL every iteration of OSX had well thought out improvements, after that its simply resource hogging eye candy for the most part.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, I hate the f_cking name. Its not "Snow Leopards" or "Lions" so why "Mavericks"? "Maverick" sounds much better!


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

andreww said:


> Oh yeah, forgot to mention, I hate the f_cking name. Its not "Snow Leopards" or "Lions" so why "Mavericks"? "Maverick" sounds much better!


Because "Mavericks" is a location apparently.



> In 1961, three surfers arrived in Half Moon Bay to try it out, accompanied by a German shepherd called Maverick. While the men had a mediocre day, steering clear of the big waves which would make the spot famous, Maverick had a great time, swimming out to join in until he had to be tied up on shore for his own safety. Since he was the only one of the four who seemed to have had fun, they decided to name the place after him, and so *"Maverick’s"* was born.


OS X Mavericks: is Apple's latest operating system really that lethal? | Technology | theguardian.com


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I remember once there was an OS upgrade that no one complained about. No, wait. I don't remember that at all.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Joker Eh said:


> Because "Mavericks" is a location apparently.
> ... ... ...



Also well renown for its *crashing* waves and *weird unpredictable* currents.

Seems appropriate enough for an OS name for some I guess.


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

SINC said:


> This option does not exist in Mavericks on my MBP, what's with that?


I should clarify this a bit more:

Select your Home folder and then go to View-Show View Options- the Show Library Folder option is right there at the bottom to select. Sorry. I was a bit off on those instructions.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> I'm in beachball hell. Hoping that a memory upgrade (next paycheque?) will address that.
> 
> And I'm in complete agreement on the new labels implementation (tags). Those stupid little dots that seem totally disassociated with the file to which they are applied... who thought that was a good idea?



CM, I don't know how much RAM you have installed but don't expect miracles by adding a lot more. But as suggested you should have at least 8GB.

I just mention the fact as my list you agreed with, my iMac mid-late 2011 27" has 20GB installed. So super extra RAM doesn't seem to help with my iMac and Mavericks.

And yes, double the stupid label/tab complaint - just a stupid change, and for what?? Just like so many other bad Mavericks changes.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I can't say I've had much problem with mavericks, I love the tabbed finder, and I don't really get many beach balls. Running it now on a 2010 macbook pro with 8 gigs of ram. Of course it ran great on the new retina with 16gigs of ram, but that's likely in for a repair after tomorrow.

I don't dig the new labels. It seems pointless now that you barely see it anymore now that it's just a wee dot. Knuckleheads.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

SINC said:


> Why not just email the pics taken on the Blackberry to your Mac account and ditch the software?


Hm... Mrs. doesn't use her BB for email, she has an old iPod Touch for that... But you're right, that's an alternative.... Do BBs work with normal email or do they need some stupid BB-only email service?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> Hm... Mrs. doesn't use her BB for email, she has an old iPod Touch for that... But you're right, that's an alternative.... Do BBs work with normal email or do they need some stupid BB-only email service?


Don't know anything about a BB, CM, but it sounds pretty straight forward:

Using a BlackBerry with Your Email | GoDaddy Help | GoDaddy Support


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## greensuperman32 (Mar 28, 2005)

HowEver said:


> I remember once there was an OS upgrade that no one complained about. No, wait. I don't remember that at all.


Same here.

I for one have had absolutely no issues with Mavericks.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Runs pretty well (except safari, it still needs work...) for a just hit point one release.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones as well. no issues yet and my soundcard is over 10 years old and under a new owner


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## OldeBullDust (Aug 22, 2010)

At the risk of highjacking this thread, I have a question.

Aside from those who are running a recent machine & are therefore forced to run the latest OS, what feature(s) are so compelling as to induce anyone to move beyond Snow Leopard?

I ask because many members here have made the switch but then report multiple problems & frustrations. Pm-r’s list highlights only a small portion of the complaints.

I’m running SL on a late 2010 27” iMac i7, with very few concerns. I assume the day will come when I will want/need to upgrade the OS ( even have a nice clean partition all set for installation), but after reading all the complaints - I’m reluctant to make the move.

Or am I just an old fart who just doesn’t understand the situation?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I am 70 and the way I see it, one is nearly forced to move on by advancing technology. My 2011 MBP (with over 7,000 hours on it), will be traded in on a new MBP at month end and that means I can no longer run any OS from Mountain Lion back. I am told the machine will not support it. 

If I had stuck with SL and not used Lion and Mountain Lion, I would be faced with learning an entirely foreign system to me all at once. 

If people have no intention of ever replacing their current machines with new ones, then searching out old used machines that can still use SL, staying with SL is fine. However if they are forced to upgrade one day when that machine dies, (and it will die) they will have a steep learning curve to adjust to Mavericks or whatever comes after it (and something will as early as next year, you can count on that).

Just my nickel's worth.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

sinc said:


> i am 70 and the way i see it, one is nearly forced to move on by advancing technology. My 2011 mbp (with over 7,000 hours on it), will be traded in on a new mbp at month end and that means i can no longer run any os from mountain lion back. I am told the machine will not support it.
> 
> If i had stuck with sl and not used lion and mountain lion, i would be faced with learning an entirely foreign system to me all at once.
> 
> ...


+1


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

SINC said:


> I am 70 and the way I see it, one is nearly forced to move on by advancing technology. My 2011 MBP (with over 7,000 hours on it), will be traded in on a new MBP at month end and that means I can no longer run any OS from Mountain Lion back. I am told the machine will not support it.
> 
> If I had stuck with SL and not used Lion and Mountain Lion, I would be faced with learning an entirely foreign system to me all at once.
> 
> ...


+2. Not to mention the longer you wait to upgrade with the flow, the more money you'll have to spend all at once in many cases to upgrade your software to work with the newer OS's. Software, especially new software, is quickly dropping support for anything below 10.7/10.8.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Full disclosure: I should have mentioned my 2008 1.83 Ghz Mini is still running SL, never upgraded it beyond that as it runs less than an hour a week since new, I keep it for the optical drive, but am getting a new external optical with the MBP so will likely sell it and upgrade it as well soon. That and my original Apple TV with a 160 GB HD and a bunch of other stuff I have laying around including a 15" Lampshade iMac G4 that still runs great.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I would agree mostly with what's said. I also think it's wise sometimes to wait out a few point releases on a new OS. Mavericks was the first time I jumped in that quick. Mavericks will go to .3 pretty soon as they've seeded the update to developers, so it's coming not too far down the pipe.

That said, if you have no desire to keep up with the latest and greatest, or have software that demands the older OS, there's nothing wrong with that either. A graphics person in my shop still running SL with no plans to update until she has to. Another, still on leopard.

If you're just a home user, I see no reason not to update, really.


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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2004)

OldeBullDust said:


> ... what feature(s) are so compelling as to induce anyone to move beyond Snow Leopard?
> ...


The 10 best new features in OS X Mavericks - InfoWorld

You have to decide if they're compelling. OTOH, there were a lot of new features after Snow Leopard so this top 10 list is far from all inclusive.



SINC said:


> ...I would be faced with learning an entirely foreign system to me all at once. ...


?? This isn't like OS 9 to OS X. Way less than Windows XP to 8!! Probably the reversal of the scrolling direction (that was Lion, right?) is the obvious change to a long-standing feature. 

Craig
(Full disclosure, my main machine is still Snow Leopard as I still haven't replaced Eudora. I boot into other versions fairly often for an open source project that I contribute to.)


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

OldeBullDust said:


> At the risk of highjacking this thread, I have a question.
> 
> Aside from those who are running a recent machine & are therefore forced to run the latest OS, what feature(s) are so compelling as to induce anyone to move beyond Snow Leopard?
> 
> ...



I'm also just an old fart in my early 70s and I have Mavericks installed on a separate volume basically just to give it a try.

I was NOT impressed with it when I first installed it last year and various things weren't working properly or running amok so I just went back to mainly using SL.

After the fourth clean re-install, Mavericks finally started working as I thought any OS X version should, and I thought I'd change my attitude about it and give it a decent try starting in the new year. 

Well, as of last night, I lasted two weeks and I'm back in and mainly using SL, mainly due to no mice and their cursor/pointer not changing or working properly, and it was becoming a real PITA. I had even gone out and bought several mouse pads to try, and one semi-hard surface pad was better but the double-click etc. would not work properly with any mouse, wired included. 

One point I should make is I have no iDevice and my wife took over my iPad 2, so I have no use of some of Mavericks supporting features. But it does have some various improvements, many of which I found are hidden by Apple for some strange reason and outside sources are needed to find out how to get them working or implemented.

Anyway, without rambling on, and depending on your situation, why not just get Mavericks installed on the volume you have prepared for it and give it a try.

It's easy enough to boot up using your SL if and when you want.

And maybe like Mikey - you just might like it.


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## OldeBullDust (Aug 22, 2010)

Another Early 70's! wow! Gray power for sure!

Anyway, I think you're right pm-r, the only way I will definitely know for sure if Mavericks is suitable for me, is to try it.

I will certainly have my SL install ready in reserve and backed up on an external drive.

Thanks for all the comments, I'll let you know how it goes in a few weeks.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

OldeBullDust said:


> Another Early 70's! wow! Gray power for sure!
> 
> Anyway, I think you're right pm-r, the only way I will definitely know for sure if Mavericks is suitable for me, is to try it.
> 
> ...


That's the spirit OBD! I like most functions in Mavericks and some of the unique things it has to offer, I hope you do too.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

SINC said:


> I am 70 and the way I see it, one is nearly forced to move on by advancing technology. My 2011 MBP (with over 7,000 hours on it), will be traded in on a new MBP at month end and that means I can no longer run any OS from Mountain Lion back. I am told the machine will not support it.
> 
> If I had stuck with SL and not used Lion and Mountain Lion, I would be faced with learning an entirely foreign system to me all at once.
> 
> ...



Just curious about what you say about being a steep learning curve.

I still run on SL because my 1st gen MacPro can't run anything higher than that. But we are still talking about an OSX and for those who also run iOS's on their iPhones or iPads I just wonder how steep that curve would actually be?

I mean going from OS9 to OSX was a huge change but it really didn't take me that long to figure it out. Personally I think once you are computer literate it really isn't all that hard to figure out the different nuances.

Perhaps that is because I have also used every version of Windows since 3.1, except for Windows 8.

I don't know, maybe it is just me but I don't expect to be overwhelmed when I eventually have to upgrade my hardware and thus the OS.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

screature said:


> I still run on SL because my 1st gen MacPro can't run anything higher than that. But we are still talking about an OSX and for those who also run iOS's on their iPhones or iPads I just wonder how steep that curve would actually be?


you can go to 10.7 if you want. With a bit of work you can even do 10.8 or 10.9 if you don't mind it being unsupported, and have a graphics card that will run under 10.8 or 10.9. (there's been a post already on how somewhere on the board...or rather a link to the macrumours thread).

IMO i wouldn't say there's a *steep* learning curve. things are different, but not adversely so. you can always install it on a extra HDD and boot into it to try it out without disrupting your 10.6 system.


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## JoshMacUa (Sep 24, 2013)

I have Mavericks on a June 2013 Macbook Air, and Mavericks and the Server App on my Mac Mini late 2011, and I have not found any major issues except time machine had issues on some hard drives, I have LACIE rugged hard drives now and Time machine has no issues with those, I have 8Gbs in both computers. I upgrade to every new Mac OS as it comes out since I have to recertify my ACTC every year.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

WCraig said:


> ?? This isn't like OS 9 to OS X. Way less than Windows XP to 8!! Probably the reversal of the scrolling direction (that was Lion, right?) is the obvious change to a long-standing feature.





i-rui said:


> IMO i wouldn't say there's a *steep* learning curve. things are different, but not adversely so. you can always install it on a extra HDD and boot into it to try it out without disrupting your 10.6 system.





screature said:


> Just curious about what you say about being a steep learning curve.


That remark was directed at a senior by a senior and depending on one's state of mind, aches and pains and memory status on any given day once one passes a certain age, it can be classed as steep. You will all experience the phenomena one day yourselves.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

SINC said:


> That remark was directed at a senior by a senior and depending on one's state of mind, aches and pains and memory status on any given day once one passes a certain age, it can be classed as steep. You will all experience the phenomena one day yourselves.


Ok I see SINC, thanks for the clarification.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

JoshMacUa said:


> I have Mavericks on a June 2013 Macbook Air, and Mavericks and the Server App on my Mac Mini late 2011, and I have not found any major issues except time machine had issues on some hard drives, I have LACIE rugged hard drives now and Time machine has no issues with those, I have 8Gbs in both computers. I upgrade to every new Mac OS as it comes out since I have to recertify my ACTC every year.


Just curious, but where is a link or info to the ACTC OS X Certification for Mavericks or have they changed its name, or included it with something else?


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## JoshMacUa (Sep 24, 2013)

The ACTC exams don't come out until late Feb or March. The Mavericks exam is available but not the server or recert yet at training.apple.com


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

i-rui said:


> *you can go to 10.7 if you want. With a bit of work you can even do 10.8 or 10.9 if you don't mind it being unsupported, and have a graphics card that will run under 10.8 or 10.9. (there's been a post already on how somewhere on the board...or rather a link to the macrumours thread*).
> 
> IMO i wouldn't say there's a *steep* learning curve. things are different, but not adversely so. *you can always install it on a extra HDD and boot into it to try it out without disrupting your 10.6 system.*


Thanks for the info i-rui.

At this point I still don't feel any "need" to upgrade from SL as it does everything I want and I know all my software and hardware is compatible. Like the saying goes, "if it isn't broken, don't fix it."

I actually already did that (Lion) just so I could play Call of Duty: Black Ops. Works ok but obviously not as well as it would if it were on an SSD with faster CPU, GPU, RAM and overall system architecture. 

I will upgrade my OS with my next hardware upgrade. But the info is still appreciated.


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

I've been a TotalFinder user for quite some time now, even since Mavericks came out with a tabbed Finder. Lately, I've been having issues with an occasional Finder freeze and also not being able to edit the names of files. Did a TotalFinder uninstall and am now relying on Mavericks tabs. One thing I miss is being able to double-click a tab when 2 tabs are up and having them both come to the front for comparing folders, etc. side-by-side. Is there any option for doing this in Mavericks? I really don't want to add on anything 3rd party or I'd stick with TotalFinder.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Why not just open each folder separately in their own windows and don't use the Finder Tabs option when you want to do such comparisons etc??? Wouldn't that work.

Sorry, I can't test as I'm back using SL right now.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

i-rui said:


> you can go to 10.7 if you want. With a bit of work you can even do 10.8 or 10.9 if you don't mind it being unsupported, and have a graphics card that will run under 10.8 or 10.9. (there's been a post already on how somewhere on the board...or rather a link to the macrumours thread).


 Yes indeed, 1.1 and 2.1 MacPros _will_ run Mavericks: http://www.ehmac.ca/anything-mac/116314-mac-pro-1-1-2-1-graphic-card-new-options-2014-a.html
64on32: SFOTT – pre-release | oemden
http://www.ehmac.ca/anything-mac/115178-mac-pro-1-1-worth.html

IMO i wouldn't say there's a *steep* learning curve. things are different, but not adversely so. you can always install it on a extra HDD and boot into it to try it out without disrupting your 10.6 system.[/QUOTE] Quite so.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

hexdiy said:


> Yes indeed, 1.1 and 2.1 MacPros _will_ run Mavericks: http://www.ehmac.ca/anything-mac/116314-mac-pro-1-1-2-1-graphic-card-new-options-2014-a.html
> 64on32: SFOTT – pre-release | oemden
> http://www.ehmac.ca/anything-mac/115178-mac-pro-1-1-worth.html
> 
> IMO i wouldn't say there's a *steep* learning curve. things are different, but not adversely so. you can always install it on a extra HDD and boot into it to try it out without disrupting your 10.6 system.


 Quite so.[/QUOTE]

Unless you are a senior, *then it can be steep*. Depends on the senior.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

I consider myself an irregular senior, sinc. I have jumped from 0S 7.6.1 to Tiger in 2006. That was a big jump indeed. Hadn't been on the internet from 1999 till about 2008. Trying to keep some pace now... And no, I haven't been in jail


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I think everyone's different regardless of age. I have a friend in their 30s that's terrified of changing from snow leopard, a likely won't for another couple years. My dad is 70 and loves jumping into a new OS and has no trouble picking it up right away. My mom on the otherhand...

It's all in what you're personally comfortable with. In any case, it's never a bad idea to install it to another partition/external drive and give it a test drive in case you have software you don't want to update or may not work in it.

That said, I hope when I'm 70, I will be using smoke signals to let a neighbor know I want to go have a drink face to face and not have any computers  

Like that will happen...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I am a volunteer for local seniors computer skills and have taught dozens of them to use Macs. They buy them because they hear they run trouble free and are tired of fighting with their PCs. 

I train them to use their new Macs for email and light browsing and offloading pics from their cameras in the most part. I don't get paid and it is a gratifying thing to do, but man oh man, some of these folks have a real problem even beginning to understand a computer, never mind adapting to change. Every time a new OS comes out, I pull my hair out with the anguish I hear and the number of times I have to go back in some cases until they get it right. 

I wish some of them would just leave well enough alone because they really don't need to upgrade for all they do, but they want the latest and greatest, just like the new Lexus sitting in front of the condo when I arrive to help out.

And don't even get me started when they download MacKeeper and crap like that to keep their Mac running smooth and then find nothing else works and holler for help!


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

hexdiy said:


> I consider myself an irregular senior, sinc. I have jumped from 0S 7.6.1 to Tiger in 2006. That was a big jump indeed. Hadn't been on the internet from 1999 till about 2008. Trying to keep some pace now... *And no, I haven't been in jail*


:lmao: 

Maybe just in the "boonies" perhaps? 

Not that it is a bad thing, but I don't know if I could have gone 9 years without an internet connection. In fact I know I couldn't have, as I made much income during that period by having an internet connection.

Different strokes...


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

screature said:


> :lmao:
> 
> Maybe just in the "boonies" perhaps?
> 
> ...


Nope, Screature. Perfectly OK in or near a major city, with my Tel/fax line, Quadra 840 AV and Macromedia Deck DAW. Fed up with my 56K modem, though.
WiFi and wardriving made a change, anyhowbeejacon...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

hexdiy said:


> Nope, Screature. Perfectly OK in or near a major city, with my Tel/fax line, Quadra 840 AV and Macromedia Deck DAW. Fed up with my 56K modem, though.
> WiFi and wardriving made a change, anyhowbeejacon...


:lmao:

I got DSL in 1997 (or 8) when it first became available in our area via cable. 

I just became incredibly frustrated with leaving work with T-1 speeds and when I got home I had to suffer dial-up modem speeds. The difference was astounding even back then.

Never looked back after that.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

I've never wanted to afford DSL or later protocols, Screature. Just have been lazy on picking up free internet, though. And you know what? Since bandwidth is plentiful here now, and has been for some time, it mostly just suffices to politely ask my neighbors for their WPA password! Question of trust...
Doesn't matter, I'm not that bad. If there is a password, I will respect it. If not, I'll consider any network a hotspot.


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## OldeBullDust (Aug 22, 2010)

Well, my adventure with Mavericks is interesting if not anything else.

I live in a rural area, my internet is via wireless broadband, quite sufficient for most purposes, but not exceptionally fast.

Mavericks download = 13 hrs

I tried asking the local Apple store about getting the installer file on USB stick/DVD/CD/portable hard drive - the only method they will deal with is "bring your 27" iMac in to the store" - not very convenient.

Anyway. bit the bullet & downloaded the file.
I've read about the "problem" of not having a back-up of the installer file
and after some research I found the following.

_How to: Create a bootable installation for OS X Mavericks 10.9 and above

With the release version of OS X Mavericks there is now a much easier way to create a bootable installer. Simply follow these steps.

1) Download Mavericks from the Mac App Store but do not click install. If you install then after it upgrades your machine the installer will be automatically deleted.

2) Insert a USB flash drive and use Disk Utility to format it, name it ‘Untitled’. The installer takes over 4GB so you’ll need at least an 8GB drive.

3) Open terminal and run the following command…

sudo /Applications/Install\ OS\ X\ Mavericks.app/Contents/Resources/createinstallmedia --volume /Volumes/Untitled --applicationpath /Applications/Install\ OS\ X\ Mavericks.app --nointeraction
You’ll see some output in Terminal letting you know it’s copying files. When that’s done your USB will be ready with the bootable installer.
_

So I tried it, but after entering my password, I got the following message

*Failed to start erase of disk due to error (-9999, 0).  A error occurred erasing the disk.*

So, now I have a couple of questions for the more technically savvy members here.
[Note: I'm currently running Snow leopard on a 27" 2010 iMac i7, the USB stick is a 16GB Lexar jumpdrive, 2 equal partitions (GUID), read/write, Mac OS Extended (journalled) - which I have erased & checked with Disk Utility]

a) What do you think about the above terminal commands? any suggestions/comments?

b) What does "error (-9999, 0)" mean?

In the meantime I've copied the downloaded installer to another hard drive for safekeeping


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

OldeBullDust said:


> Well, my adventure with Mavericks is interesting if not anything else.
> 
> I live in a rural area, my internet is via wireless broadband, quite sufficient for most purposes, but not exceptionally fast.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, I would never use terminal to make that USB stick. Once you have the installer image on your hard drive, simply insert the USB stick into the USB port, so that it appears on your desktop, then use Disk Utility to erase it and set it as a single partition, Mac journaled.

Once that is done, simply drag the installer file onto the USB stick icon and it will copy to the stick, ready to use in just a few minutes.

Then use the stick to install Mavericks on your iMac which will leave the stick intact with the installer once Mavericks is installed and you can save it if you ever want to use it again without downloading it via the backup partition it will create on your main HD. 

Always of course have a bootable backup external drive as insurance, or perhaps even install Mavericks on an external so you can boot from it and play with Mavericks, leaving the HD running SL intact on your iMac.


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## JoshMacUa (Sep 24, 2013)

Since I have to recert my ACTC exam every year, what I do is after downloading the Mavericks install file. I copy it to a partition so I will always have the mavericks install, I then install Mavericks on the external hard drive, so I can boot from Mavericks from it so I can practice with it without worrying about messing up my Mavericks installed on my laptop, and then I can also take the hard drive to my other Mac and install Mavericks from the install file. I have not tried to make a bootable install/recovery disk, yet since I have no need.


Here is instructions on how to do it so you don’t get that error.


How to: Create a bootable OS X Mavericks USB Flash Drive from original App Store package | 9to5Mac


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## Carl (Jun 7, 2003)

If you just hold the option key in the finder while selecting GO, the library shows up. Plus, its easier to google the terminal solution to make it appear as well. Chrome works fine on everyone else's computer here it seems, and it works on mine.


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## Jazzboy (May 14, 2003)

*Mackeeper info*

Sinc: Yours is the most recent reference to Mackeeper that I've found on ehMac -- the Mackeeper thread stops at 2011. Your evaluation agrees with many others I've read ... and not with many others that I've read. Went to Cult of Mac yesterday looking for info and its evaluator thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and he quoted several industry-leading magazines he said agreed with him. Very confusing, to say the least. Guess I'll hold off for now, but would be interested in hearing from anyone whose had recent experience with the software.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Jazzboy said:


> Sinc: Yours is the most recent reference to Mackeeper that I've found on ehMac -- the Mackeeper thread stops at 2011. Your evaluation agrees with many others I've read ... and not with many others that I've read. Went to Cult of Mac yesterday looking for info and its evaluator thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and he quoted several industry-leading magazines he said agreed with him. Very confusing, to say the least. Guess I'll hold off for now, but would be interested in hearing from anyone whose had recent experience with the software.


I always refer folks to this post which IMO says it all. If you ever try to uninstall it without these instructions, you will fail. It is VERY invasive:

https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-3027


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Jazzboy said:


> Sinc: Yours is the most recent reference to Mackeeper that I've found on ehMac -- the Mackeeper thread stops at 2011. Your evaluation agrees with many others I've read ... and not with many others that I've read. Went to Cult of Mac yesterday looking for info and its evaluator thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and he quoted several industry-leading magazines he said agreed with him. Very confusing, to say the least. Guess I'll hold off for now, but would be interested in hearing from anyone whose had recent experience with the software.



I'm not SINC, so excuse my intrusion, but I would strongly support his opinion of Mackeeper and I'm sure there have been many such warnings here at ehmac.

Mackeeper is almost like malware and I'd suggest it should be treated as such. Maybe they got a big settlement from the other "Mackeeper" that really was malware that they now spend on what must be a huge advertising budget, and just maybe those reviewers that give it accolades I'd suggest may just be part of that budget. :greedy:


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

I just missed SINC's post, and to reinforce any removal problems, I ended up having to use 'Find Any File' to get rid of all the bits and pieces with searches on 'Mackeeper' and 'Zeobit' etc.

PS: You can install Mackeeper and see what it does, but just do not fall into its payment scheme and use other methods to do any possibly suggested cleanup it suggests - IF even needed.

Been there - done that thanks!! But never again!!


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

pm-r said:


> PS: You can install Mackeeper and see what it does, but just do not fall into its payment scheme and use other methods to do any possibly suggested cleanup it suggests - IF even needed.
> Been there - done that thanks!! But never again!!


 +1 SINC & pm-r! Kromtech's ( formerly Zeobit's) MacKeeper is borderline malware, i'd call it extorsionware right now.
I wouldn't touch it even with fireman's gloves!


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

MacKeeper, like Norton, will never be welcome on my hard drive.


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## hexdiy (Dec 18, 2011)

Norton was great in the 1990ies. Right now it is Symantec owned. Would put more trust in a rattler in a bag. And I fear Symantec is out of the bag now... As are many other IT companies, computer manufacturers and network providers.


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## Jazzboy (May 14, 2003)

Sinc: Thanks for the link, I'm convinced.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

I actually like the new tags, which replace the old labels. Granted, the visual implementation could be better (i.e. more obvious), but I find the ability to put multiple tags on a file or folder a useful feature. 

There are other things I rather like about Mavericks, like the ability to send driving directions to your phone, not to mention the overall improvement to Maps.

And tabbed Finder windows are long overdue.

No beach balling here, either -- mid-2010 MBP with 8 gigs. 

But, it really is a consumer-oriented OS. I'm sure a lot of power users are less than thrilled. I use it for work, but my biggest OS requirement is that it be as unobtrusive as possible and do its job with minimal fiddling. By that measure, Mavericks has been good to me so far.


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

iMatt said:


> I actually like the new tags, which replace the old labels. Granted, the visual implementation could be better (i.e. more obvious), but I find the ability to put multiple tags on a file or folder a useful feature.
> 
> There are other things I rather like about Mavericks, like the ability to send driving directions to your phone, not to mention the overall improvement to Maps.
> 
> ...


I like the tagging as well, much more useful I find as I integrate it into my work flow. Though I wish it still highlighted the entire name of the file or folder rather then just the coloured circle beside the name.

Love the tabbed browser as well, taking a bit to get used, but it is a huge improvement and less clutter on my desktop now. 

No real complaints now that I got my printing issues sorted out, its actually the first OS X update thats added new features that I use for work since Snow Leopard.


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