# Turn off irritating changes in Lion with Lion Tweaks



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Turn off irritating changes in Lion with Lion Tweaks

A new all in one free App for addressing some of the most annoying complaints of Lion adopters.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

they left out - how to turn off versions


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## [email protected] (Dec 26, 2010)

Yes! Change leather to aluminum!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Too bad there's no "re-enable Rosetta so you can still use all those apps that were available to you only a couple of weeks ago in Snow Leopard."


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

I suspect licensing fees was one of the reasons Apple left out Rosetta. However, I'll bet if Apple charged a small fee for it and enabled it in Lion, customers would be outraged since it used to be free.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

hayesk said:


> I suspect licensing fees was one of the reasons Apple left out Rosetta. However, I'll bet if Apple charged a small fee for it and enabled it in Lion, customers would be outraged since it used to be free.


And rightly so. If the very same computer with the very same parts could run programs before for the same price, there' s absolutely no good reason those same programs should be disabled now. Bad decision on Apple's part.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

macintosh doctor said:


> they left out - how to turn off versions


Nobody's yet to articulate to me why Versions is a bad thing, yet many people want to turn it off?

Is this just resistance in working with documents in a new way? What is so bad about versions?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I was worried about that "versions" thing until I realized it didn't over-ride the "Save as" in programs I used daily. I never touch TextEdit so with that Tweak App, I'm good--thanks screature!


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> And rightly so. If the very same computer with the very same parts could run programs before for the same price, there' s absolutely no good reason those same programs should be disabled now. Bad decision on Apple's part.


How long did you expect PPC apps to last? We have to move on. Support was going to leave eventually. Apple chose now. It's hard, and you must have been glad that Rosetta has been keeping PPC apps alive on Intel Based Macs, but its for the best.


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## Garry (Jan 27, 2002)

Funny.. I was thinking that there was no way to enable the "I knew that Rosetta wasn't a part of lion but I upgraded anyway so now I need to complain" feature.. But then I realized that seems to be turned on by default. 
I agree with tech elementz... PPC apps had their day in the sun, if developers were lazy and didn't update their code by now, apple can't halt moving forward and support legacy code. Time marches on. Also if someone can't go without legacy apps they know that snow leopard is as far as they go for now.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Tech Elementz said:


> How long did you expect PPC apps to last? We have to move on. Support was going to leave eventually. Apple chose now. It's hard, and you must have been glad that Rosetta has been keeping PPC apps alive on Intel Based Macs, but its for the best.


It's not just PPC apps. It's also earlier versions of Intel apps that have problems unless you purchase the newest versions. Check RoaringApps to find out. I can see updating the OS but there should not be a need to have to re-purchase a sizeable chunk of your software when they work perfectly well in Snow Leopard. Suddenly that $29 for Lion, which seems reasonable, translates to thousands of dollars in other abandonware.

And you are wrong; it's not for the best. It's for profit. I don't like the fact that my first gen Apple TV's can't do AirPlay like my ATV2 can, but at least they have not been rendered useless and I still use them daily. It is entirely possible to allow happy Apple customers to continue using their programs that worked on the same machine last week under Snow Leopard to continue to use those programs and peripherals. It's not like we're talking about new hardware that's incompatible with old software. They have created the incompatibility for no good reason. And to top it off, it appears you won't be able to take advantage of iCloud syncing without Lion. I call that manipulation.


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

I dont like that in any folder you open up, at the bottom it no longer says how much hard drive space you have left. It was in Snow Leopard, any way to get it back in Lion?


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> It's not just PPC apps. It's also earlier versions of Intel apps that have problems unless you purchase the newest versions. Check RoaringApps to find out. I can see updating the OS but there should not be a need to have to re-purchase a sizeable chunk of your software when they work perfectly well in Snow Leopard. Suddenly that $29 for Lion, which seems reasonable, translates to thousands of dollars in other abandonware.
> 
> And you are wrong; it's not for the best. It's for profit. I don't like the fact that my first gen Apple TV's can't do AirPlay like my ATV2 can, but at least they have not been rendered useless and I still use them daily. It is entirely possible to allow happy Apple customers to continue using their programs that worked on the same machine last week under Snow Leopard to continue to use those programs and peripherals. It's not like we're talking about new hardware that's incompatible with old software. They have created the incompatibility for no good reason. And to top it off, it appears you won't be able to take advantage of iCloud syncing without Lion. I call that manipulation.


What did you expect? There are the same American company who still wants money just as much as the next... The only difference is that Apple has innovated each product, which is why there actually making money than others. Besides, it is for the best, because when Apple fails, they will innovate themselves out of the wrong they did with Lion. Sure, they may not bring back features and support they did before, but it's worth noting that something better could come later on. 

I am not saying your wrong. As well, you have a very valid point. I just think that something like this should be expected from Corporate companies.


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## Garry (Jan 27, 2002)

wonderings said:


> I dont like that in any folder you open up, at the bottom it no longer says how much hard drive space you have left. It was in Snow Leopard, any way to get it back in Lion?


It's under the view menu in the finder... the Status bar I believe.


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

Garry said:


> It's under the view menu in the finder... the Status bar I believe.


that it was! 

Thanks


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## MX-V (Feb 2, 2010)

Still missing "Bring back Spaces and Exposé", "Add arrows to otherwise bearable gray scroll bars" and "Add colors to Finder's sidebar icons".


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

fjnmusic said:


> Too bad there's no "re-enable Rosetta so you can still use all those apps that were available to you only a couple of weeks ago in Snow Leopard."


Adapt.

We all have to as well so you may as well get used to it or revert back to SL. The choice, as always, is yours to make.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

hayesk said:


> I suspect licensing fees was one of the reasons Apple left out Rosetta. However, I'll bet if Apple charged a small fee for it and enabled it in Lion, customers would be outraged since it used to be free.


Don't forget that even the last Mac OS version to support Rosetta (SL), regardless of how one got it or paid for it cost one hell of a lot more than the $30.00 for lion.

But I have also stated elsewhere previously that Apple should have installed their own 'tweaks' pref pane in Lion.

Anyway, there's just too much stuff I just don't need or want with Lion and why I've just gone back to using SL, and I can manage without Rosetta. 

Lion 10.7 is the worst Mac OS I've ever experienced in 20 years of Mac use and I'm very disappointed, having expected something much better.


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## MX-V (Feb 2, 2010)

Digikid said:


> Adapt.
> 
> We all have to as well so you may as well get used to it or revert back to SL. The choice, as always, is yours to make.


Guess the little winking blue guy went unnoticed. Try not to miss the next one.


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

pm-r said:


> Don't forget that even the last Mac OS version to support Rosetta (SL), regardless of how one got it or paid for it cost one hell of a lot more than the $30.00 for lion.
> 
> But I have also stated elsewhere previously that Apple should have installed their own 'tweaks' pref pane in Lion.
> 
> ...


Can't make everyone happy.  Let's all hope for Mac OS X 10.8 LION KING.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

pm-r said:


> Don't forget that even the last Mac OS version to support Rosetta (SL), regardless of how one got it or paid for it cost one hell of a lot more than the $30.00 for lion.


Ya, if I remember correctly SL upgrade cost me a whole *$35*, tht's a whopping $5 more.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Tech Elementz said:


> Can't make everyone happy.  Let's all hope for Mac OS X 10.8 LION KING.


Nope, the next version that actually works and does the work a user expected will need to be called Lioness — just like in the real world where the female cat does all the actual work. 

BTW: I ended up with a 10.7.2 update file somehow on my desktop (my preferred choice for any downloads so that I can deal with them) when I was running Lion a few weeks ago but didn't install it.

It's created date is a day after the official Lion release date, and there's no Read Me or anything and I have no idea what it's possibly going to update or change, or any possible Lion improvements.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

jamesB said:


> Ya, if I remember correctly SL upgrade cost me a whole *$35*, tht's a whopping $5 more.


But not all Mac users qualified, and as I recall those that did had just spent a few thousand dollars on a new Mac just before the SL release.

So how much do you think the SL OS actually cost you when you figure in your Mac purchase price?? 

And now many new Mac purchasers can get Lion "free" after spending a few thousand dollars — albeit without Rosetta and some normal working Mac OS GUI interface and expected stuff that no longer works.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Digikid said:


> Adapt.
> 
> We all have to as well so you may as well get used to it or revert back to SL. The choice, as always, is yours to make.


Adapt, hey? There is no version of EZ Drummer or support for my Tascam US-428 that is going to work under Lion. I'm effed if I take your advice, not to mention the money I paid for those music programs I can no longer use. Adapt here means DON"T upgrade and stick with Snow Leopard and accept the fact that I won't be able to upload my music collection to iCloud. Most musicians are quite faithful to the systems they use and don't throw money away capriciously. You fail to understand the basic premise: Apple didn't have to create abandonware; they chose to, for no good reason, and didn't really warn people about what they were getting into. Apple makes no money if my copy of CuBase 4 no longer works and I have to spend $500 or more to get CuBase 6. I suppose it should in theory make the devs happy, but there are many decent non-ppc universal apps that work perfectly well under Snow Leopard that will not in Lion, and for a musician to no longer have access to their basic production arsenal is like career suicide. Again, there is absolutely no good reason for it.

I am a diehard Apple fan for decades now but even I think they screwed the pooch a little on this one, and Apple apologists who preach "just adapt to the changing world, man" are not really helping matters any.

/rant over


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

pm-r said:


> But not all Mac users qualified, and as I recall those that did had just spent a few thousand dollars on a new Mac just before the SL release.
> 
> So how much do you think the SL OS actually cost you when you figure in your Mac purchase price??
> 
> And now many new Mac purchasers can get Lion "free" after spending a few thousand dollars — albeit without Rosetta and some normal working Mac OS GUI interface and expected stuff that no longer works.


I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, I bought my SL retail at London Drugs for something close to $35, my old mini didn't figure into this purchase in any way.
I see you can still buy Snow Leopard from the Apple store for $29 if you so desire.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

You are quite correct jamesB and my mistrake.

I guess I must have been thinking of some local late 'upgraders' that could use SL on their then 10.4.x Macs but needed to purchase Lion 10.5.x in order to also purchase and then install SL 10.6.x.

That would even have included myself with my mid-2007 24" iMac that initially came with a pre-Installed MacOS X 10.4.10 version.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Its not always as easy as just upgrading an app. Some apps don't have the same functionality as previous versions. Case in point;

Every quarter I have to prepare a series of powerpoint presentations illustrating our company's quarterly results. Very important stuff. The presentation needs to be in Powerpoint as the it is used as a webcast and thats what the vendor requires. As Powerpoint is less than perfect in how you can format text and how it handles fonts, we decided to go a different route. We create the presentation using indesign, then PDF it. I then run the PDF through graphic converter and output each page as WMF (vector) and import each page in to a blank powerpoint document. Works great. The problem is that MS started to move away from WMF format with Office 2008, and if I use PPT 2008 or 2011 it seems that the end result is pixelated as opposed to being vector. I keep a version of Office 2004 for this reason as using this version of PPT works perfectly. 

Even though Ive got Lion running on my personal MBP it'll be a long time, if ever, before I upgrade our production machines simply because of Rosetta.


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

pm-r said:


> Nope, the next version that actually works and does the work a user expected will need to be called Lioness — just like in the real world where the female cat does all the actual work.
> 
> BTW: I ended up with a 10.7.2 update file somehow on my desktop (my preferred choice for any downloads so that I can deal with them) when I was running Lion a few weeks ago but didn't install it.
> 
> It's created date is a day after the official Lion release date, and there's no Read Me or anything and I have no idea what it's possibly going to update or change, or any possible Lion improvements.


10.7.2 is released to devs only. It was released a couple of days after the Lion release (they must have already been done creating the update before hand) and ask devs to test it. I wonder when they going push out the updates.... 

By the way, are you saying that the Lion's wife will fix Mac OS X? (Lioness)


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> Adapt, hey? There is no version of EZ Drummer or support for my Tascam US-428 that is going to work under Lion. I'm effed if I take your advice, not to mention the money I paid for those music programs I can no longer use. Adapt here means DON"T upgrade and stick with Snow Leopard and accept the fact that I won't be able to upload my music collection to iCloud. Most musicians are quite faithful to the systems they use and don't throw money away capriciously. You fail to understand the basic premise: Apple didn't have to create abandonware; they chose to, for no good reason, and didn't really warn people about what they were getting into. Apple makes no money if my copy of CuBase 4 no longer works and I have to spend $500 or more to get CuBase 6. I suppose it should in theory make the devs happy, but there are many decent non-ppc universal apps that work perfectly well under Snow Leopard that will not in Lion, and for a musician to no longer have access to their basic production arsenal is like career suicide. Again, there is absolutely no good reason for it.
> 
> I am a diehard Apple fan for decades now but even I think they screwed the pooch a little on this one, and Apple apologists who preach "just adapt to the changing world, man" are not really helping matters any.
> 
> /rant over


Wow, I never realized that you were a musician... (Hence your name most likely.) I see that you could be having problems with what Apple did with LIon... However, I think you should stick with Snow Leopard. IF Lion cannot do what you need to do, then Snow Leopard must step to the plate and complete what you need to do. There just is not any other thing I could say that would fix this. Apple did the things they did with Lion and it just cannot work with what you do. SNOW LEOPARD is your only option....


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> And rightly so. If the very same computer with the very same parts could run programs before for the same price, there' s absolutely no good reason those same programs should be disabled now. Bad decision on Apple's part.


It's a matter of Apple no longer wanting to pay the licensing fee. Should Apple have raised the price of Leopard to $39 just so 5% of their users can run discontinued software?


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> It's not just PPC apps. It's also earlier versions of Intel apps that have problems unless you purchase the newest versions. Check RoaringApps to find out. I can see updating the OS but there should not be a need to have to re-purchase a sizeable chunk of your software when they work perfectly well in Snow Leopard. Suddenly that $29 for Lion, which seems reasonable, translates to thousands of dollars in other abandonware.


What I don't understand is these people that refuse to update their apps but rush out to update their OS at the drop of a hat. If you are content with old applications, why are you not content with the older OS. If you have "thousands of dollars in abandonware" that you use daily, just stay with Snow Leopard.



> And you are wrong; it's not for the best. It's for profit. I don't like the fact that my first gen Apple TV's can't do AirPlay like my ATV2 can, but at least they have not been rendered useless and I still use them daily.


See this article:
Remote HD lets older Apple TV use AirPlay | Networked Players | iOS Central | Macworld

I tried it. It works - it's buggy and sometimes the performance is not up to par, but it works.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

andreww said:


> Even though Ive got Lion running on my personal MBP it'll be a long time, if ever, before I upgrade our production machines simply because of Rosetta.


"Sweet Rosetta fats she thought she was a cleaner, but she was a frying pan…"
– obscure quote from John Lennon


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

pm-r said:


> Lion 10.7 is the worst Mac OS I've ever experienced in 20 years of Mac use and I'm very disappointed, having expected something much better.


I remember people saying that when Snow Leopard came out.
I remember people saying that when Leopard came out.
I remember people saying that when Tiger came out.
I remember people saying that when Panther came out.
...


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> Adapt, hey? There is no version of EZ Drummer or support for my Tascam US-428 that is going to work under Lion.


I don't know if this is true, but it sounds like you are giving the third party developers a free ride here. Why aren't they updating their apps?

When I upgrade my OS, I expect to have to upgrade apps along with it. Each OS has under the hood improvements, and a few APIs get deprecated because they don't fit well with the new ones. As long as you sell a product, you owe it to your customers to update it to work with the current OS.

And if the products you mention are discontinued, well, that really sucks, but what do you expect? Not even MS has that level of backward compatibility in Windows, and they're notorious for holding on to the past.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

hayesk said:


> It's a matter of Apple no longer wanting to pay the licensing fee. Should Apple have raised the price of Leopard to $39 just so 5% of their users can run discontinued software?


It's not discontinued, it's just not compatible. EZDrummer, for example, is universal and I bought it less than two years ago along with expansion packs just recently. And yes, $39 is quite reasonable for a full operating system. I'd even pay $99 for a version that allows me access to all of my universal apps and hardware rather than having to pay thousands of dollars to replace perfectly good software. I think you'll also find well more than 5% of users have been affected by this change. tptptptp


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

andreww said:


> Every quarter I have to prepare a series of powerpoint presentations illustrating our company's quarterly results. Very important stuff. The presentation needs to be in Powerpoint as the it is used as a webcast and thats what the vendor requires. As Powerpoint is less than perfect in how you can format text and how it handles fonts, we decided to go a different route. We create the presentation using indesign, then PDF it. I then run the PDF through graphic converter and output each page as WMF (vector) and import each page in to a blank powerpoint document. Works great. The problem is that MS started to move away from WMF format with Office 2008, and if I use PPT 2008 or 2011 it seems that the end result is pixelated as opposed to being vector. I keep a version of Office 2004 for this reason as using this version of PPT works perfectly.


Have you tried a different format then? And this is PPT intended for webcast, why does it need to be vector? Make it a bitmap image.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

hayesk said:


> I remember people saying that when Snow Leopard came out.
> I remember people saying that when Leopard came out.
> I remember people saying that when Tiger came out.
> I remember people saying that when Panther came out.
> ...


I remember when Panther came out, I thought it was good.
I remember when Tiger came out, I thought is was great.
I remember when Leopard came out, I thought it was terrific.
I remember when Snow Leopard came out, I thought is was Fantastic.
And now after working with Lion for awhile, I'm considering that why bother with all the hacks to try and make things work right, it would be easier to downgrade back to SL.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

hayesk said:


> I don't know if this is true, but it sounds like you are giving the third party developers a free ride here. Why aren't they updating their apps?
> 
> When I upgrade my OS, I expect to have to upgrade apps along with it. Each OS has under the hood improvements, and a few APIs get deprecated because they don't fit well with the new ones. As long as you sell a product, you owe it to your customers to update it to work with the current OS.
> 
> And if the products you mention are discontinued, well, that really sucks, but what do you expect? Not even MS has that level of backward compatibility in Windows, and they're notorious for holding on to the past.


As I said, they are not discontinued, they are just not compatible with Lion. For example, I paid about $500 (educator price) for Cubase 4 a few years back, which works fine in Snow Leopard, but is not supported in Lion, because Cubase 6 is now the standard. That's just tough luck, and I use Logic Express9 most of the time now anyway, but it's nice to be able to have the choice without cranking out another $500 or more to do so. EZDrummer I cannot live without, so that's the way it is. The developer is working on compatibility, but they don't have access to the code that much sooner than the public, mostly due to Apple's secret ways, so they have to relearn like anyone else.

My point is that this has nothing to do with hardware compatibility, like it did with Apple TV 2. Obviously the hardware can handle the job since it does it quite well under Snow Leopard. It's the software that has been crippled, along with Snow Leopard or earlier users who wish to use iCloud to sync their music collections. According to the information on Apple's site, only Lion users will be able to access the feature. I sure hope this is wrong, because THAT is what I find to be small-minded and manipulative. It has nothing whatsoever to do with licensing fees or anything else to cripple their own older OS; it's about _policy_.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

Apple stopped making PPC computers six years ago. Realistically, how long should anyone expect them to keep the legacy code required to run the software in the operating system?? If it was trivial to do it, I'm sure they'd do it, but clearly it wasn't. Sooner or later they had to move on. _That doesn't mean that anyone HAS to move on with them, if the software and OS in use now does the job._ After all, Snow Leopard didn't magically stop working the day Lion came out.  Snow Leopard will continue to function well for the foreseeable future. While I understand the impulse to update the OS to the latest and greatest - particularly if it costs as little as Lion does, and I understand the disappointment when some legacy software doesn't work with Lion, you simply can't expect Apple to continue supporting that legacy software forever.

This really isn't any different from any other OS release. There is ALWAYS something that no longer works and has to be updated IF you want to update the OS.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Paddy said:


> Apple stopped making PPC computers six years ago. Realistically, how long should anyone expect them to keep the legacy code required to run the software in the operating system?? If it was trivial to do it, I'm sure they'd do it, but clearly it wasn't. Sooner or later they had to move on. _That doesn't mean that anyone HAS to move on with them, if the software and OS in use now does the job._ After all, Snow Leopard didn't magically stop working the day Lion came out.  Snow Leopard will continue to function well for the foreseeable future. While I understand the impulse to update the OS to the latest and greatest - particularly if it costs as little as Lion does, and I understand the disappointment when some legacy software doesn't work with Lion, you simply can't expect Apple to continue supporting that legacy software forever.
> 
> This really isn't any different from any other OS release. There is ALWAYS something that no longer works and has to be updated IF you want to update the OS.


Again, you are missing the point. I am not talking about PPC apps and legacy code. I am talking about Universal apps that worked fine with SL but are crippled in Lion. It's quite simple really. Yes the devs have a responsibility to get up to date, but Apple also has a responsibility to support both its developers and its consumers. People should not have to be herded into using a new OS if they wish to use iCloud. for example. You can access iCloud features using iOS, for example. Why not SL?


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> Adapt, hey? There is no version of EZ Drummer or support for my Tascam US-428 that is going to work under Lion. I'm effed if I take your advice, not to mention the money I paid for those music programs I can no longer use. Adapt here means DON"T upgrade and stick with Snow Leopard and accept the fact that I won't be able to upload my music collection to iCloud. Most musicians are quite faithful to the systems they use and don't throw money away capriciously. You fail to understand the basic premise: Apple didn't have to create abandonware; they chose to, for no good reason, and didn't really warn people about what they were getting into. Apple makes no money if my copy of CuBase 4 no longer works and I have to spend $500 or more to get CuBase 6. I suppose it should in theory make the devs happy, but there are many decent non-ppc universal apps that work perfectly well under Snow Leopard that will not in Lion, and for a musician to no longer have access to their basic production arsenal is like career suicide. Again, there is absolutely no good reason for it.
> 
> I am a diehard Apple fan for decades now but even I think they screwed the pooch a little on this one, and Apple apologists who preach "just adapt to the changing world, man" are not really helping matters any.
> 
> /rant over


I feel your pain but ... how is it you are blaming Apple for not updating drivers for your Tascam (on that note why Tascam didn't make it to standards which would mean it would work with Core-Audio) and why berate Apple because the makers of EZ Drummer haven't kept up with it on your platform of choice. It's _those_ companies that should be getting your complaints as you paid them your hard earned money and they have dropped support on _their_ products. Had they both been built better in the first place they would probably both still work with Lion with little to no changes, but they weren't.

Yes it sucks that Apple moved forward and left some things behind, but it is the way it is and it's not likely to change -- Apple has done this throughout their entire history (68k->PPC->Intel, OS9->OSX). The important thing is to spend your money on the hardware and software that will keep working for you as things progress, if that's something that's really important to you. I know several guys doing studio stuff that still running OS9 and putting out absolutely awesome results with it. They are doing it because they invested heavily into their hardware and software and want to get the most out of their investments and they separate their production machines from their everyday usage machines.

If you're worried about keeping your productions tools running then OS version chasing on your production hardware is totally the wrong approach to take, on ANY platform. Welcome to the world of production. If you're complaining think about what the guys that have spent tens of thousands of dollars into their Final Cut Pro rigs are doing right now. A buddy of mine spent $10k on an external remote for Color (which he uses daily) and Apple totally pulled the plug on that piece of software -- think about how he feels.

Apple didn't "create" abandonware, the developers in question have done that for you.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> As I said, they are not discontinued, they are just not compatible with Lion. For example, I paid about $500 (educator price) for Cubase 4 a few years back, which works fine in Snow Leopard, but is not supported in Lion, because Cubase 6 is now the standard. That's just tough luck, and I use Logic Express9 most of the time now anyway, but it's nice to be able to have the choice without cranking out another $500 or more to do so. EZDrummer I cannot live without, so that's the way it is. The developer is working on compatibility, but they don't have access to the code that much sooner than the public, mostly due to Apple's secret ways, so they have to relearn like anyone else.


??!?!??

The EZ Drummer devs could have had access to the dev builds just the same as any other dev. , they just had to ante up and pay the developer program fees and they could have released updates for Lion at the same time as everyone else did just after Lion's release. It sounds like they didn't bother with that part of things and are just taking it casual and getting it sorted out after the fact. Again how do you blame Apple for the developer being lazy/cheap? As for Cubase 4 it's at least 5 years old. Show me ANY OSX based audio production or DAW setup that still runs perfectly after 5 years and I'll be very very surprised.

You need to swallow the bitter reality pill. If you want to be serious about production you need to dedicate a machine to it, tweak it up and get it running perfectly and then NEVER update the OS on it, ever. Make lots of backups and if you're really paranoid buy another identical machine and keep it stored for usage when that first one dies. You've got a pretty small investment when it comes down to the big picture there ... again think about the guys that sunk $30k into pro tools rigs that were never updated to run under OSX or that are PPC specific, etc.

You can't have the best of both worlds, if you want to be a version chaser with the OS be prepared to do the same with all of your production software and hardware. If you don't want to chase it all and have a fully functional production machine, don't mess with it. It doesn't matter if you're running MacOS 8-9, OSX, Windows or even Linux ... it's the same everywhere. One little update can bring the whole house of cards crashing down so just don't do it.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

mguertin said:


> I feel your pain but ... how is it you are blaming Apple for not updating drivers for your Tascam (on that note why Tascam didn't make it to standards which would mean it would work with Core-Audio) and why berate Apple because the makers of EZ Drummer haven't kept up with it on your platform of choice. It's _those_ companies that should be getting your complaints as you paid them your hard earned money and they have dropped support on _their_ products...the important thing is to spend your money on the hardware and software that will keep working for you as things progress, if that's something that's really important to you.


Agreed, and in this case it means _not_ spending money in order to keep everything useable. Or I may keep my iMac on Snow Leopard and install Lion on my MacBook at some point. We shall see, As Dr. G likes to say. And I am not blaming Apple for the devs not keeping up, but I AM blaming Apple for making cool new things like iTunes Match in iCloud available only to Lion users and higher. These appear to be the conditions at the moment, though things could change, particularly if enough customers are not happy about it. Heck, they gave away free bumpers with the iPhone 4 for a few months after a less-than-stellar review in Consumer Reports about the antennagate issue.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

fjnmusic said:


> Again, you are missing the point. I am not talking about PPC apps and legacy code. I am talking about Universal apps that worked fine with SL but are crippled in Lion. It's quite simple really. Yes the devs have a responsibility to get up to date, but Apple also has a responsibility to support both its developers and its consumers. People should not have to be herded into using a new OS if they wish to use iCloud. for example. You can access iCloud features using iOS, for example. Why not SL?


No, I'm not missing the point. As I said in the last line of my last post, EVERY time an OS is updated, there are apps that don't work - because either they are using legacy PPC code or the universal code that they're using doesn't work with some aspect of the new OS. In your case, you seem to be expecting older versions of applications that DO have newer, compatible versions to work. Not going to happen - because software developers are also in the business of making money and would rather you buy the new version.

Apple is in business to make money too. And if they make every feature available to the old OS users, there will be no need to move to the new OS, will there? Sorry...but that's reality. You may not like it, but don't blame them for behaving like a business.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Paddy said:


> No, I'm not missing the point. As I said in the last line of my last post, EVERY time an OS is updated, there are apps that don't work - because either they are using legacy PPC code or the universal code that they're using doesn't work with some aspect of the new OS. In your case, you seem to be expecting older versions of applications that DO have newer, compatible versions to work. Not going to happen - because software developers are also in the business of making money and would rather you buy the new version.
> 
> Apple is in business to make money too. And if they make every feature available to the old OS users, there will be no need to move to the new OS, will there? Sorry...but that's reality. You may not like it, but don't blame them for behaving like a business.


Wrong again. I already have the newest version of EZDrummer. You make many assumptions. I could list many other apps that are in the same predicament, but why waste my breath? I figured out a while ago that I will have to stick with Snow Leopard on my main computer, and hopefully Apple will pull its head out of its arse as far as iTunes syncing and matching are concerned. Once again, there is no good reason they can't make this work. I tried Lion at the Apple Store and it was pretty neat, but not a must have.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

It's all well and good to suggest that maybe dome folks shouldn't upgrade but, as has been pointed out, what about new services that aren't backward compatible? 

For those who aren't upgrading to continue with legacy software, what happens when their Mac dies and the replacement doesn't support installation of an earlier OS?


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

hayesk said:


> Nobody's yet to articulate to me why Versions is a bad thing, yet many people want to turn it off?
> 
> Is this just resistance in working with documents in a new way? What is so bad about versions?


two reasons.. working on sensitive documents, also small SSD drives..
but I think i figured it out.
1: Disable Autosave and Versions on Lion - Setting 
1. Go to System Preferences > General 
2. Untick "Restore windows when quitting and re-opening apps". 
3. Then reboot. 

2: Disable Autosave and Versions on Lion - Time Machine 
1. Open ‘System Preferences’ and the ‘Time Machine’ menu.
2. Click the ‘Options…’ button in the Time Machine menu.
3. Untick the “Lock documents [drop down] after last edit” box.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> Wrong again. I already have the newest version of EZDrummer. You make many assumptions. I could list many other apps that are in the same predicament, but why waste my breath? I figured out a while ago that I will have to stick with Snow Leopard on my main computer, and hopefully Apple will pull its head out of its arse as far as iTunes syncing and matching are concerned. Once again, there is no good reason they can't make this work. I tried Lion at the Apple Store and it was pretty neat, but not a must have.


Sadly Apple almost _never_ backports anything like that, so don't hold your breath. Also of note, the music match service is not even available in Canada (nor is it likely to be). As for the non-functional apps there's nothing that Apple can or will do about that, again it's up to the devs to keep on top of their apps and make sure they work with the latest and the greatest. LOTS and LOTS of apps rolled out updates within the first few days that Lion was out for compatibility updates. The ones that are still dragging their feet have no one to blame but themselves and are likely using deprecated methods and the like (and had they been keeping up with things they would have known that many months ago and had fixes in place and ready to go with the OS update).

So all of your bitterness is because you want to chase an iTunes upgrade? And you are blaming Apple and their operating system because you can't use a service that they offer in the new version of the OS and iTunes? It makes no sense to me really. New versions of apps have new features, as do new operating systems. You want the new stuff you upgrade.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

hayesk said:


> Have you tried a different format then? And this is PPT intended for webcast, why does it need to be vector? Make it a bitmap image.


Done that. The webcast ends up looking fuzzy when we use anything but Office 2004 which looks nice and crisp.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

you dont have to look any further to see apple's true nature on this type of issue than to look at itunes 10.

if you have an ipad 2, new nano, iphone 4 etc you *need* itunes 10 to sync. itunes 10 wont run on 10.4, which was the current mac os in 2007. it also won't run on 10.3, 10.2 or anything older either. 

BUT

it runs quite happily on windows XP, an OS from 2001. figure that one out..


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

broad said:


> you dont have to look any further to see apple's true nature on this type of issue than to look at itunes 10.
> 
> if you have an ipad 2, new nano, iphone 4 etc you *need* itunes 10 to sync. itunes 10 wont run on 10.4, which was the current mac os in 2007. it also won't run on 10.3, 10.2 or anything older either.
> 
> ...


That's because win32 is ancient and really never progresses. Also consider that Windows XP is TWO OS releases ago for microsloth. iTunes also runs on 10.5, 10.6 and 10.7 so if you want to compare it like that Apple supports as much into legacy OSes as microsloth (even though microsloth takes 10 years to get 2 OS updates out the door).

As for "true nature" a lot of those updates were required due to toolchain incompatibilities. Welcome to the world of *nix, it's not just Apple. When there are ABI updates that are not backward compatible there is really no choice in the matter. The 10.5 or higher requirements are due to exactly this reason.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> Again, you are missing the point. I am not talking about PPC apps and legacy code. I am talking about Universal apps that worked fine with SL but are crippled in Lion. It's quite simple really. Yes the devs have a responsibility to get up to date, but Apple also has a responsibility to support both its developers and its consumers.


Yes they do. By seeding betas of the OS ahead of release, holding a conference where you can come and talk to engineers, and offering up documentation. 

Apple's responsibility is not, "don't change anything because it might break someone's product who ventured outside the MacOS X APIs and knew things might change in future OS releases."


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

andreww said:


> Done that. The webcast ends up looking fuzzy when we use anything but Office 2004 which looks nice and crisp.


That makes no sense. Not that I don't believe you, but PDF can raster to bitmaps just fine. Heck if it's for a webcast, you could take a screenshot. And if it's in bitmap at the right size for the webcast, it should look fine. Are you sure you just don't need to tweak the resolution and image sizes a bit better?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

mguertin said:


> Sadly Apple almost _never_ backports anything like that, so don't hold your breath. Also of note, the music match service is not even available in Canada (nor is it likely to be). As for the non-functional apps there's nothing that Apple can or will do about that, again it's up to the devs to keep on top of their apps and make sure they work with the latest and the greatest. LOTS and LOTS of apps rolled out updates within the first few days that Lion was out for compatibility updates. The ones that are still dragging their feet have no one to blame but themselves and are likely using deprecated methods and the like (and had they been keeping up with things they would have known that many months ago and had fixes in place and ready to go with the OS update).
> 
> So all of your bitterness is because you want to chase an iTunes upgrade? And you are blaming Apple and their operating system because you can't use a service that they offer in the new version of the OS and iTunes? It makes no sense to me really. New versions of apps have new features, as do new operating systems. You want the new stuff you upgrade.


I am not bitter. I am disappointed. Apple can do better and has done better. Part of what makes Apple cool is its longevity. Two years should not be considered old in the lifespan of a software product. Plus, if they can keep things functional going from Tiger to Leopard, or from Leopard to Snow Leopard, then _there is no reason _most of these apps couldn't still be supported in Lion. You seem to have a bizarre need to defend progress (?) at any cost, whether or not it disadvantages a ton of users out there. There is a HUGE backlash to Lion, my friend, from people all over the place who are longtime Apple users like myself, and the list of "non functional" current apps, not even older versions, in RoaringApps is embarrassing. Apple's motto is that "it just works." Well this time, it doesn't. Or, it works as long as you don't upgrade to Lion.

You should really take a look around and you'll see that my criticism is not isolated. Many are comparing Lion to Vista. I am happy to continue using all of my Apple gear, but I am a little disappointed at where they decided to draw the line in the sand and I have a right to be. The iCloud question will be up in there until September, but you, my fanboy friend, need to also accept that sometimes Apple can make bad decisions.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

hayesk said:


> That makes no sense. Not that I don't believe you, but PDF can raster to bitmaps just fine. Heck if it's for a webcast, you could take a screenshot. And if it's in bitmap at the right size for the webcast, it should look fine. Are you sure you just don't need to tweak the resolution and image sizes a bit better?


This screen shot shows the results. Front window is ppt 2004, back one is 2011. Same image imported to a blank page. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> I am not bitter. I am disappointed. Apple can do better and has done better. Part of what makes Apple cool is its longevity. Two years should not be considered old in the lifespan of a software product. Plus, if they can keep things functional going from Tiger to Leopard, or from Leopard to Snow Leopard, then _there is no reason _most of these apps couldn't still be supported in Lion. You seem to have a bizarre need to defend progress (?) at any cost, whether or not it disadvantages a ton of users out there. There is a HUGE backlash to Lion, my friend, from people all over the place who are longtime Apple users like myself, and the list of "non functional" current apps, not even older versions, in RoaringApps is embarrassing. Apple's motto is that "it just works." Well this time, it doesn't. Or, it works as long as you don't upgrade to Lion.
> 
> You should really take a look around and you'll see that my criticism is not isolated. Many are comparing Lion to Vista. I am happy to continue using all of my Apple gear, but I am a little disappointed at where they decided to draw the line in the sand and I have a right to be. The iCloud question will be up in there until September, but you, my fanboy friend, need to also accept that sometimes Apple can make bad decisions.


I'm not particularly happy with Lion either, Apple made some _very_ bad decisions with regards to it and it's extremely buggy so far. I'm not defending "progress at any cost" -- I'm telling you the reality of how things work with Apple OS upgrades as you seem to have a skewed perspective on things here ...

The fact that a lot of third party apps are not working properly in Lion is another story, and is not necessarily Apple's fault. Do you know why those apps are not working? Apple has been seeding betas to devs for many months as well as publishing a ton of great documentation on what is needed for their apps to work properly under Lion. The devs that don't build their apps to the guidelines laid out and/or take shortcuts that come back to bite them later are likely mostly what you are seeing here. The same thing happened in 10.3, 10.4, 10.5 and 10.6 for a lot of apps and they needed updates in order to work with the new OS, but maybe you just don't remember that. This is not something out of the ordinary at all. At some point Apple has to pull the plug on legacy methods and/or fix ones that have issues and this requires devs to update their offerings. Devs need to be aware of this and keep up with this, but again not all of them do, and not all of them do it fast enough to keep the early adopters happy.

Your criticism is based in, well, nothing. You said that you tried Lion for a few minutes in an Apple store. You apparently haven't even installed it on any of your machines ... so your criticism is based on other people's criticism's and the slow dev process/cycle of third party developers because they have not yet updated their apps for the new OS that's not even been out for a month yet. You are just complaining for the sake of jumping on the bandwagon. ZOMG .... EZ Drummer doesn't work with Lion so it sucks and it's all Apple's fault. And ZOMG iCloud might not work with my older OS either (but we don't know yet because it's not even released)! It's the end of the world and Apple sucks because they abandoned me because I have a _right_ to be able to do this all because I have an Apple machine. 

Sorry if this comes across sounding harsh, but welcome to reality.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

mguertin said:


> I'm not particularly happy with Lion either, Apple made some _very_ bad decisions with regards to it and it's extremely buggy so far. I'm not defending "progress at any cost" -- I'm telling you the reality of how things work with Apple OS upgrades as you seem to have a skewed perspective on things here ... You are just complaining for the sake of jumping on the bandwagon. ZOMG .... EZ Drummer doesn't work with Lion so it sucks and it's all Apple's fault. And ZOMG iCloud might not work with my older OS either (but we don't know yet because it's not even released)! It's the end of the world and Apple sucks because they abandoned me because I have a _right_ to be able to do this all because I have an Apple machine.
> 
> Sorry if this comes across sounding harsh, but welcome to reality.


You keep using that term, "welcome to reality," as though I and the other responders somehow don't live in reality or are unfamiliar with the whole OS update process. It's irritating. Kindly find a better expression.

I have always been cautious when updating my OS for the very reasons you have presented: I rely on the apps that I have purchased working and the use of some of these apps is non-negotiable. I purchased Snow Leopard a good eight months before actually installing it just to make sure all the things I needed would still run. Today I have many Appleworks documents that I still need to update to Pages, but since pages has no Draw equivalent, I need to import them to NeoOffice first and then bring them into Pages and solve the problem. This takes time. Or I could stay in Snow Leopard and leave well enough alone. 

Never did I suggest that EZDrummer not working in Lion yet is Apple's fault, and if ToonTracks doesn't want people to jump ship, they'd better get on that. Yes PrintExplosion Deluxe will not be updated, but I use it quite regularly still and again SL does not have a problem accommodating it. Yes, the app-makers should be doing their best to stay on top of things, but it is not always easy for them either, try as they might. That is _also _reality, and I am quite aware of the limits of what the new OS can and can't do from reading about others' experiences with it.

Which brings me to my third point. You don't need to be condescending about my minimal experience _using_ Lion; in fact, I admire myself for NOT jumping on the bandwagon and then complaining afterward about what won't work. I'd be an idiot if I had used that approach. But one thing I have read precious little about is Lion and iCloud—you seem to dismiss what Apple has clearly put on their website in terms of iTunes services and the requirement of Lion to make that work. I already use MobileMe to sync all my stuff very well and free is even better than the current price, but when iCloud comes with iTunes Match, for example, I believe that every customer who has purchased songs on iTunes should be eligible to upload their libraries, not just Lion OS users. How on earth are PC owners supposed to interpret this? Perhaps the plan is to make services like iTunes Matching universal, after all, but the literature on the Apple website seems to bely the assumption that non-Lion users will have the same access.

Ultimately my concern is, and has always been, that OS updates will cause me to lose more than I would gain, as I'm sure most users feel with respect to their own setups. As I've said before, I'm about the biggest Apple fan there is, but even I know that they don't always act in our best interests. Now you don't have to agree with me, but you have no right to dismiss my concerns and likely the concerns of a great many other Mac users. That is also reality and you are welcome to see it from the other side if you care to take a look.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

This is from the Apple website itself on iTunes Matching. For iTunes Matching, it appears that Vista, even though it is older and crappier than Snow Leopard, will be supported, but anything older than Lion on the Mac side will not, as explained in point 2:

1. Available in beta now in the U.S. only and requires iOS 4.3.3 on iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4 (GSM model), iPod touch (3rd and 4th generation), iPad, or iPad 2, or a Mac or PC with iTunes 10.3 or later. Previous purchases may be unavailable if they are no longer in the iTunes Store. Download iTunes 10.4 free.

2. Requires iOS 5 on iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, iPod touch (3rd and 4th generation), iPad, or iPad 2, _*or a Mac computer with OS X Lion*_ or a PC with Windows Vista or Windows 7 (Outlook 2007 or 2010 recommended). Limit 25,000 songs. iTunes purchases do not count against limit.

3. Unmatched content will be uploaded; upload time varies depending on amounts uploaded.

4. Upload time varies depending on amounts uploaded.

5. Unmatched content will not be upgraded.

Features are subject to change. Access to some services is limited to 10 devices. See Apple - Legal - iTunes for more information.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> This is from the Apple website itself on iTunes Matching. For iTunes Matching, it appears that Vista, even though it is older and crappier than Snow Leopard, will be supported, but anything older than Lion on the Mac side will not, as explained in point 2:


see my last post


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

broad said:


> see my last post


I see your last post and I'll raise you my last post. 

Seriously, am I the only one concerned that one of the coolest new features of iCloud, iTunes Matching, will not be available to most Mac users unless they install Lion? Ot buy a new machine with Lion pre-installed? Almost all of my media is on my iMac, my main working computer for music production, the one I cannot afford to update to Lion without sacrificing my working-just-fine-under-Snow-Leopard programs, and I cannot use this new feature simply because this feature must be Lion-compatible. Why, for gosh sakes? Making backups of songs to "the cloud" already works with MobileMe and has done for years. Why all of a sudden is the line in the sand drawn for iCloud at Snow Leopard/Lion? Is nobody else concerned about this? Did you all know that Lion/iCloud was a package deal, at least if you want to use iTunes Matching?

And its not like Apple is going to make a ton of money off the Lion update, which is dirt cheap for an OS update, and I think looks way cool, notwithstanding the complaints I here about Launchpad, Mission Control and what not. They are not imposing these limitations because it will make them rich. This is a _policy_ decision. And of course neither Steve nor his comrades mentioned any of these limitations regarding Lion and iCloud during the keynote speech in June. I'm just saying.

You can tweak Lion all you want, but I don't know how you're going to get around this one.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> I see your last post and I'll raise you my last post.
> 
> Seriously, am I the only one concerned that one of the coolest new features of iCloud, iTunes Matching, will not be available to most Mac users unless they install Lion? Ot buy a new machine with Lion pre-installed? Almost all of my media is on my iMac, my main working computer for music production, the one I cannot afford to update to Lion without sacrificing my working-just-fine-under-Snow-Leopard programs, and I cannot use this new feature simply because this feature must be Lion-compatible. Why, for gosh sakes? Making backups of songs to "the cloud" already works with MobileMe and has done for years. Why all of a sudden is the line in the sand drawn for iCloud at Snow Leopard/Lion? Is nobody else concerned about this? Did you all know that Lion/iCloud was a package deal, at least if you want to use iTunes Matching?
> 
> ...


It is my understanding that with virtualization you should be able to run Lion and SL on the same computer... I can' quite remember where I saw this, I believe it was it was 9to5 Mac, so if you want iCloud and iTunes Match on your SL machine I think you should be able to install and run Lion simultaneously. It obviously isn't ideal but I think this could be a way around the problem you are experiencing and still get both of the things you want/need on the same machine.

*Edit:* I just did a search and seems that Lion can be virtualized on Lion Machines... there is nothing that I can find that indicates whether or not Lion can be virtualized on SL machines. Maybe with more time we will find out.

Another option, although not anywhere near as desirable, you can dual boot SL and Lion on the same machine so long as you have a second partition on your boot drive at least you could with the Lion beta not really totally sure about the Gold Master.

How to Install & Dual Boot Mac OS X 10.7 Lion and 10.6 Snow Leopard


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> Making backups of songs to "the cloud" already works with MobileMe and has done for years. Why all of a sudden is the line in the sand drawn for iCloud at Snow Leopard/Lion? Is nobody else concerned about this? Did you all know that Lion/iCloud was a package deal, at least if you want to use iTunes Matching?


Yes, the day iCloud was announced, it was said it would be for iOS5 and Lion.

iTunes matching is not the same as backing songs up to your iDisk. Any third party backup service can do that. If you are concerned about it, use a third party backup service.

However, I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment. iCloud mail, calendar, address book, should be supported on older computers, as they use standard protocols. It is my understanding they will work, just not supported by Apple. New features like documents in iCloud, however, require OS updates so I can understand them not being supported.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

screature said:


> It is my understanding that with virtualization you should be able to run Lion and SL on the same computer... I can' quite remember where I saw this, I believe it was it was 9to5 Mac, so if you want iCloud and iTunes Match on your SL machine I think you should be able to install and run Lion simultaneous. It obviously isn't ideal but I think this could be a way around the problem you are experiencing and still get both of the things you want/need on the same machine.
> 
> *Edit:* I just did a search and seems that Lion can be virtualized on Lion Machines... there is nothing that I can find that indicates whether or not Lion can be virtualized on SL machines. Maybe with more time we will find out.
> 
> ...


This sounds like an idea worth exploring. Kind of like the old days where you could boot up in either OS9 or OSX. Not the most convenient, as you say, but better than nothing. Virtualization also sounds interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2011)

Ok, I'll try to be as non-condescending as possible here. You're chasing a pipe-dream fjnmusic. The music match service is NOT available in Canada (which has been stated a couple of times so far), so you're getting worked up for nothing that will be helpful to you anyway if that's why you're upset about having to upgrade to use it.

As for the other stuff, I didn't mean to come across as condescending, just trying to illustrate that it seems a bit odd that you're so put out with the OS upgrade that you've not even used yet. I've been using Lion daily since it came out and while it is buggy and has some issues it's more than usable and it irks me that everyone seems to want to jump on the Lion bashing bandwagon without good reason and/or personal experience.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

mguertin said:


> Ok, I'll try to be as non-condescending as possible here. You're chasing a pipe-dream fjnmusic. The music match service is NOT available in Canada (which has been stated a couple of times so far), so you're getting worked up for nothing that will be helpful to you anyway if that's why you're upset about having to upgrade to use it.
> 
> As for the other stuff, I didn't mean to come across as condescending, just trying to illustrate that it seems a bit odd that you're so put out with the OS upgrade that you've not even used yet. I've been using Lion daily since it came out and while it is buggy and has some issues it's more than usable and it irks me that everyone seems to want to jump on the Lion bashing bandwagon without good reason and/or personal experience.


Well I'm happy for you. I would also like to upgrade to Lion, just like you did happily, but obviously we don't have the same apps that we rely on to get our jobs done, so that's the limiting factor for me. I am not dumping on Lion—it looks an improvement in may respects—but I don't think they quite thought this through, and if you've been reading user comments worldwide at all, you'd have noticed this, too. People don't complain as much when everything "just works."

As far as iCloud goes, I assume all the features will be available in Canada eventually. I'm "getting worked up" because I'm actually paying attention to what is announced regarding the new product. Why would you assume iTunes Match will not become available worldwide at some point? At one point you couldn't get TV shows on TV in Canada, an now you can. If a great many Apple iTunes customers, in Canada, the US or anywhere else, began accumulating their iTunes libraries on their older computers, they will all be similarily hooped when it comes to iTunes Match, especially if upgrading to Lion causes them the same kind of problems it will cause me.

I do think you are either downplaying the seriousness of this issue or are not really considering the implications of it. It will affect many users unless they change the policy. Which they can and will if enough people protest.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2011)

> I do think you are either downplaying the seriousness of this issue or are not really considering the implications of it. It will affect many users unless they change the policy. Which they can and will if enough people protest.


I highly doubt Apple will ever change their "policy" as you describe it. They simply do not do anything but security updates on their legacy OSes. They have done things like that since the early days and I don't think that all the complaining in the world is going to change that.

As for music match in Canada I'm doubtful that we'll see it for a long time if at all, and if/when we do it will be very limited and likely not worth the cost. Things are very much different in Canada in regards to being able to stream content. Look at Netflix for example, the offerings there are abysmal compared to the US side of things. That's not because Netflix is lazy, it's because of the rights and costs involved. It will be the same with music match. Look at the iBooks Canada store for an example, it exists, but the offerings are tiny and very limited compared to the US store and even in all the time it's been out there really doesn't seem to be any forward progress for it.

As for the Lion upgrade, I did it on my MBP, not my main workstation. My main workstation will probably not get updated to Lion for a long, long time, if at all (until I have to replace the machine). I also have older apps that I rely upon to get things done and don't have the budget or time to spend to do all the legwork and testing to make sure they are going to be stable for my work needs. I did it on my MBP because I pretty much have to ... I support clients who are using it, or going to be using it -- none of my clients have made the plunge yet -- but with the way it works with Apple when they have to buy new machines they won't have a choice but to use Lion, so it's move forward or not at all. The only reason why Windows XP has stuck around for so long is that people could still install it on new hardware (up until recently when manufacturers just finally stopped providing the drivers needed). With Apple it's totally different ... new hardware means new/updated kernels and again Apple doesn't backport so you're SOL if you buy a new machine but want to run an older OS ... it simple won't "just work".

At the end of the day this is just how it is, and has been for a long, long time in regards to both rights holder permissions in Canada and the way Apple supports new features and what gets bundled with new Apple hardware. Again I don't think that all the complaining in the world is going to change the way things work in that regard, almost no one backports new features to old OSes.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> Why, for gosh sakes? Making backups of songs to "the cloud" already works with MobileMe and has done for years. Why all of a sudden is the line in the sand drawn for iCloud at Snow Leopard/Lion? Is nobody else concerned about this? Did you all know that Lion/iCloud was a package deal, at least if you want to use iTunes Matching?


a. Yes, we all knew this. Given that Lion is a whopping $30 and works with machines going back to 2007 (for example the one I'm typing this to you on), it's not a big deal to most anyone. Also, Lion marks the true beginning of the 64-bit era and is, in fact, a "lion" in the sand (sorry, bit of levity, had to be done).

b. Who says you can't backup your songs to the cloud? Of course you can. You can do it right now, in fact -- still using iDisk (good for another nine months if you're already a member) or any number of third-party services. If Apple wants to make iCloud a Lion exclusive (I don't know that that's actually true, btw), that's their prerogative in the same sense that Microsoft has every right to require that Office 2013 or whatever the next version is only runs on Windows 7.



> This is a _policy_ decision.


Sorta. It's a policy decision in the interest of helping them move not only copies of Lion, but also of incentivizing people to buy newer equipment. I remind you that Apple has shareholders and is a corporation, not a hippie farm commune. This is HARDLY the first time Apple has ever done something primarily to motivate people to update their hardware, and is actually a standard practice throughout the entire industry (and other industries).

Planned obsolescence has been with us since at least the 1930s and is -- in fact -- the engine that consumer-based capitalism runs on. You're not new to this planet, so I'm surprised that you're surprised by this.


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## MacAddict (Jan 29, 2006)

I knew when I started reading this topic that I would eventually, before I reached the last posting, see a comment about how I personally got around the problem of not being able to run programs on my iMac that formerly ran on Snow Leopard OS. (10.6.8)

I made a partition on the hard drive for 10.6.8 and so I can switch between what runs under Lion and what runs on Snow Leopard. It so happens that with the 1 TB hard drive I had a lot of unused space to begin with, but for anyone who has tremendous files from their kind of work there are outboard hard drives that can accommodate them, as you all know. I kept wondering throughout why it took so long to come up with the solution instead of going on about 'progressing beyond the point of no return'.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

mguertin said:


> I highly doubt Apple will ever change their "policy" as you describe it. They simply do not do anything but security updates on their legacy OSes.


This is incorrect. Apple has maintained Safari, QuickTime, iTunes and a few other things (such as Migration Assistant) for legacy OSes going all the way back to Tiger (10.4.11, anyway). In fact, the Migration Assistant update for Leopard was just three days ago.



> As for music match in Canada I'm doubtful that we'll see it for a long time if at all, and if/when we do it will be very limited and likely not worth the cost.


I've seen nothing from Apple that indicates that iTunes Matching (its proper title, btw) will be any different here than in the U.S., at the same price point. If you have a link to something different, I'm obviously not disputing you (yet) as the service doesn't exist yet, but would be interested to see from where you draw this conclusion.



> but with the way it works with Apple when they have to buy new machines they won't have a choice but to use Lion, so it's move forward or not at all.


There are computer manufacturers that sell computers with older OSes as options? Really? Cuz you're making it sound like only Apple does that, when in fact that's standard procedure throughout the industry ...


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2011)

chas_m said:


> There are computer manufacturers that sell computers with older OSes as options? Really? Cuz you're making it sound like only Apple does that, when in fact that's standard procedure throughout the industry ...


I could buy a PC with OEM windows XP up until not too long ago from any street corner computer store.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

mguertin said:


> I highly doubt Apple will ever change their "policy" as you describe it. They simply do not do anything but security updates on their legacy OSes. They have done things like that since the early days and I don't think that all the complaining in the world is going to change that.
> 
> As for music match in Canada I'm doubtful that we'll see it for a long time if at all, and if/when we do it will be very limited and likely not worth the cost. Things are very much different in Canada in regards to being able to stream content. Look at Netflix for example, the offerings there are abysmal compared to the US side of things. That's not because Netflix is lazy, it's because of the rights and costs involved. It will be the same with music match. Look at the iBooks Canada store for an example, it exists, but the offerings are tiny and very limited compared to the US store and even in all the time it's been out there really doesn't seem to be any forward progress for it.
> 
> ...


Well that sucks, but thanks for the extended explanation. I do believe that iTunes Match will be available in Canada sooner than we think since the music offerings are already pretty well-stocked in iTunes (CA), although movies and TV shows always seem to take longer. No big whoop. I also think that Apple will allow older OS's to sync (they do now with Home Sharing, for example) because they will want to see the hugest mass of people tied in to iTunes, and the possibility of "legalizing" all those P2P songs will be tempting for many people. In other words, I think the policy will change, mostly because it was a dumb policy.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> Well that sucks, but thanks for the extended explanation. I do believe that iTunes Match will be available in Canada sooner than we think since the music offerings are already pretty well-stocked in iTunes (CA), although movies and TV shows always seem to take longer. No big whoop. I also think that Apple will allow older OS's to sync (they do now with Home Sharing, for example) because they will want to see the hugest mass of people tied in to iTunes, and the possibility of "legalizing" all those P2P songs will be tempting for many people. In other words, I think the policy will change, mostly because it was a dumb policy.


Fair enough, I guess we'll have to see how it all works out.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

chas_m said:


> a. Yes, we all knew this. Given that Lion is a whopping $30 and works with machines going back to 2007 (for example the one I'm typing this to you on), it's not a big deal to most anyone. Also, Lion marks the true beginning of the 64-bit era and is, in fact, a "lion" in the sand (sorry, bit of levity, had to be done).
> 
> b. Who says you can't backup your songs to the cloud? Of course you can. You can do it right now, in fact -- still using iDisk (good for another nine months if you're already a member) or any number of third-party services. If Apple wants to make iCloud a Lion exclusive (I don't know that that's actually true, btw), that's their prerogative in the same sense that Microsoft has every right to require that Office 2013 or whatever the next version is only runs on Windows 7.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'd be fine with this argument if I wasn't already blowing wads of dough on new Apple stuff all the time. Just got wifey an iPhone 4, plus all the other assorted things you can see from my signature. I don't have any problem paying more money for higher quality stuff either, and I prefer to purchase from iTunes rather than P2P for free because I want quality. But these Apple machines are made to last, man (in deference to your hippie reference), and there's not a great deal of sense in replacing a computer sooner than you have to if the old one is still working fine. I could see if it was showing its age, but that sadly (happily?) is not the case here. My iMac is five years old and our MacBooks are both three years old, and we still consider them all to be new and shiny. It's a bragging point, in fact.

No, what I can't quite wrap my brain around is why so many of my apps that work quite well right now in SL will become suddenly obsolete in Lion. Obviously, the easy solution is don't upgrade, or don't upgrade everything, which I can live with quite easily, and I can see letting go of Rosetta stuff—no problem there. And if there was an easy way to dual boot or even run Lion virtually, I'm there. But with this new OS, it's almost like their trying to change too many things too quickly, from what I gather. I could be wrong, but there's a lot of concerns being raised by the Mac faithful here and elsewhere. I just hope those folks down in Cupertino know what they're doing.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Boy, this is a lot to read if one is coming late to the party.

I have a similar problem as fjnmusic and therefore decided not to upgrade to Lion.
The option of using two partitions is not great but probably manageable - but where I think Apple can and should do better is in allowing older OSs (up to a point) to be installed on new Macs.
Right now they artificially prevent that, not quite sure why if the hardware is compatible.
I'm seriously thinking of buying a Mac now from the refurb shop with SL on it to have on some future date should my existing Mac die.
Pretty ridiculous I know, but if I need to replace my current Mac running SL for any reason, I will be forced into Lion and I will immediately have a bunch of incompatible applications where I either need to spend thousands to get updates or where updates don't even exist.
Moving forward is all fine and good, but I like to do it in a way that makes sense for me.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> No, what I can't quite wrap my brain around is why so many of my apps that work quite well right now in SL will become suddenly obsolete in Lion.


As a developer, I would say, mostly bad programming. They likely didn't use the APIs and instead dug into Apple's frameworks and used undocumented APIs and data structures. Apple deprecates some APIs but when they do that, they work for several versions of the OS before they're finally removed. They don't do it often, and they give you ample warning when they do, but developers often ignore the warnings until it affects them. Sometimes it's a MacOS bug too, and sometimes it's removed features (e.g. An old, obsolete codec in QuickTime)


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2011)

hayesk said:


> As a developer, I would say, mostly bad programming. They likely didn't use the APIs and instead dug into Apple's frameworks and used undocumented APIs and data structures. Apple deprecates some APIs but when they do that, they work for several versions of the OS before they're finally removed. They don't do it often, and they give you ample warning when they do, but developers often ignore the warnings until it affects them. Sometimes it's a MacOS bug too, and sometimes it's removed features (e.g. An old, obsolete codec in QuickTime)


+1

Apple is pretty good for supporting their dev environments and keeping their docs up to date, but devs have to stay on the bandwagon as well and make sure their stuff is up-to-date on new OS releases especially.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

hayesk said:


> Nobody's yet to articulate to me why Versions is a bad thing, yet many people want to turn it off?
> 
> Is this just resistance in working with documents in a new way? What is so bad about versions?


Been very well articulated. Sometimes you do not wish to save changes in a document and the intent of a template is to have a starting point that does not change. 

Hopefully Stationary Pad is still functional as a replacement for templates. Not sure about Stationary pad function as I have had no flaming desire to drive 270 miles in order to give Lion a good test drive.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

eMacMan said:


> Been very well articulated. Sometimes you do not wish to save changes in a document and the intent of a template is to have a starting point that does not change.


As I already said, locking the doc gives you template functionality. Open a locked doc, try to edit and it makes you save a duplicate - just like a template. The only difference is it makes you save it up front rather than later.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

hayesk said:


> As I already said, locking the doc gives you template functionality. Open a locked doc, try to edit and it makes you save a duplicate - just like a template. The only difference is it makes you save it up front rather than later.


Yeah I can see how that is a good thing... plus one for Lion..... still I need to see a lot more pluses before I can/will be convinced that it is any better than SL in order to subject myself to all the minuses.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Something I haven't seen mentioned here, probably because there aren't many developers here, is the under the hood improvements in Lion. Lion has much better security, ARC should result in much more stable software, and there has been a lot of optimizations to the OS now that the hardware bar has been raised, and Apple has a new compiler/debugger in their development tools that is much better than the old gcc/gdb.

Remember how people bought Snow Leopard, even though there were no new features except under the hood changes. Well, Lion brings a lot of that too along with the new visible features.


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