# Dion new leader of federal Liberals



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

with Iggy and Rae losing, the all too familiar stench of the cabal of Liberal back room apparatchiks has now been wiped clean from the party

the self anointed "we know what's best" crown no longer have jobs in Ottawa
a newly revived Liberal party with a leader who doesn't owe anyone anything, a leader who holds dear the values of the majority of Canadians; health care, sustainable economy and the environment

Today is a great day for Liberals and a great day for Canada

I'm celebrating by having a glass or two of Canadian grown Merlot.

Vive le Canada !!!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

and now back to reality 



> 70,000 still without power in Ontario
> Weekend storm rips through region
> Dec. 2, 2006. 01:17 PM
> CANADIAN PRESS
> ...


 

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...l_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

Lucky you can still post Michael.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I'm not a Liberal, but I can never figure out how 75% of the delegates who are from outside Quebec keep saddling the rest of the country with a Quebec leader, time, after time after time.

It's just an observation since it does not affect me, that is until 75% of Canadians from outside Quebec elect one. Then it just POs me as usual.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: 

I guess CBC feels the same way as I do about Quebec Liberal leaders, they cut off Dion's acceptance speech while he was still thanking delegates at 4:30 MST in favour of Hockey Night In Canada. Whatever he had to say to Canadians is gonzo.

Looks like the Liberal strategists who purposely delayed the last ballot to force Dion's speech to air in prime time got screwed.

Somehow, it looks good on 'em.

Hehehe.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Talk respectful about your next Prime Minister now Sinc.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ehMax said:


> Talk respectful about your next Prime Minister now Sinc.


Case of beer says you're wrong, Mr. Mayor.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Case of beer says you're wrong, Mr. Mayor.


next gov't could be very complicated
coalition gov't between Liberals and Bloc anyone?
take that coalition to the GG and offer it to an alternative to a minority con gov't?

i really want to see a televised debate between harper and dion
should be fun


things that make you go hmmmmmmmm


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Given what Harper has done to the judiciary, women's groups, human rights regulations and his totally deplorable policies with respect to the environment, it will be an interesting debate indeed between Dion and Harper.

But they've spoken recently. Harper called upon Dion to work on the "Quebecois are a nation" motion that passed recently. He didn't call on Michael Chong, which is why Chong resigned.

He called on Dion since he was in charge of the Clarity Act motion that will help keep Quebec in Canada, as it requires Quebec to ask clear questions in order to undertake a referendum. It was that vague "what if" that resulted in the near 50% referendum vote last time. Thanks to Chretien and Dion, that is an unlikely re-occurrence.

And as for electing the next prime minister from Quebec, I recall that it's still part of Canada. Why the bias against Quebec?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

HowEver said:


> And as for electing the next prime minister from Quebec, I recall that it's still part of Canada. Why the bias against Quebec?


No bias at all. Just a deeply rooted suspicion that something is rigged within the Liberal party to elect a Quebec leader every single time for 30 years running is all.


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

Yabba dabba doo.
What a turn. I like it!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> No bias at all. Just a deeply rooted suspicion that something is rigged within the Liberal party to elect a Quebec leader every single time for 30 years running is all.


ahem, John Turner


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Glad it wasn't Rae.

Still a good memory for this Ontarian.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

SINC said:


> No bias at all. Just a deeply rooted suspicion that something is rigged within the Liberal party to elect a Quebec leader every single time for 30 years running is all.


Rigged?

That convention looked like the antithesis of rigged. So what kind of evidence do you have that somehow some dark force rigged this? Are you hinting at a conspiracy theory here?


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## ErnstNL (Apr 12, 2003)

SINC said:


> No bias at all. Just a deeply rooted suspicion that something is rigged within the Liberal party to elect a Quebec leader every single time for 30 years running is all.


He's using the winky-smiley. 

Dion was the anti-Liberal. Green theme for his campaign, passable english, reminds me of Bourassa.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

I wonder what the Cons will do in the next election now that they just can't sit back and hammer the crap out of Adscam and with a mostly controversial record of their own to defend. 

I would bet for a Lib minority next time and Harper and the Reformers will have to step aside and let the Progressive Conservatives take back their old party.

Edit: That is if there are any PCs left that they didn't drive to the Libs.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I find the annunciation of a Quebec bureaucrat very sweet indeed. I love to see how group dynamics occasionally lead to such insipid politics.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Rigged?
> 
> That convention looked like the antithesis of rigged. So what kind of evidence do you have that somehow some dark force rigged this? Are you hinting at a conspiracy theory here?


Not at all, just wondering what strange turn of circumstance allows 75% of delegates from outside Quebec to keep electing a leader from inside Quebec is all.

I suspect they drug them while they're sleeping in their hotel rooms. I mean really, what else could it possibly be?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

ErnstNL, Dion had a good idea of wind power for NL when he was being interviewed on our local CBC here in St.John's. My wife flew in on the same plane as he was on when she was coming back from a dog show in Halifax, and he was coming here to start his Atlantic Canada swing. He was near us as his aides were getting his bags, and we were picking up the dog crate that contained Casey. He smiled, and asked what sort of dog we had. When we said "standard wirehaired dachshund" he was a bit fluxed, but said "Cute dog". He smiled even more when I said "Mais oui, et bon chance". No one recognized him at the St.John's airport.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

If doxies could vote, the Libs would have a winnah!


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## William (Jan 5, 2004)

SINC said:


> No bias at all. Just a deeply rooted suspicion that something is rigged within the Liberal party to elect a Quebec leader every single time for 30 years running is all.


You should check up your facts. Within the last fifty hears, if memory serves, the alternation has been steady: one anglophone followed by a francophone. Thus, Mackenzie King, Louis St. Laurent, Lester Pearson, Pierre Trudeau, John Turner, Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, Stephane Dion.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise, it would be nice if you retracted your statement

William


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Not at all, just wondering what strange turn of circumstance allows 75% of delegates from outside Quebec to keep electing a leader from inside Quebec is all.
> 
> I suspect they drug them while they're sleeping in their hotel rooms. I mean really, what else could it possibly be?


ahem #2, Paul Martin was born in Windsor, ON


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

William said:


> You should check up your facts. Within the last fifty hears, if memory serves, the alternation has been steady: one anglophone followed by a francophone. Thus, Mackenzie King, Louis St. Laurent, Lester Pearson, Pierre Trudeau, John Turner, Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, Stephane Dion.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise, it would be nice if you retracted your statement
> 
> William


Sure William, since you ARE wrong, I will be happy to correct you.

Note I said leaders FROM Quebec. I never mentioned if they were French or English speaking at all, just that they were from that province.

Now, care to retract your accusation?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> ahem #2, Paul Martin was born in Windsor, ON


But lived in and was a Quebec MP. Did you forget that part Michael?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> But lived in and was a Quebec MP. Did you forget that part Michael?



i guess it all depends on what you mean by "from"?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i guess it all depends on what you mean by "from"?


Yep it does. I was born in Saskatchewan but have lived in Alberta for 26 years. And you keep calling me an Alberta *******. Guess it doesn't count when you do it, or does it Michael?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Yep it does. I was born in Saskatchewan but have lived in Alberta for 26 years. And you keep calling me an Alberta *******. Guess it doesn't count when you do it, or does it Michael?


did i ever actually use the term "AB *******"
or just the non-provincial version?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> did i ever actually use the term "AB *******"
> or just the non-provincial version?


As I recall, the term Alberta has crept in there about a thousand times or so over the years, but not always with "*******".

There have been other colourful adjectives freely used though, and not all of them by you.


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## William (Jan 5, 2004)

For the record. In the final ballot, Dion got 74.5 % of the votes cast. Ignatieff got 25.5 %.

It was a defeat not only for Ignatieff, but above all for the party nomenklatura, who were his original proponents and steady supporters. 

William


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## jmac (Feb 16, 2003)

Sinc,
I'm from Windsor, and believe me, Paul Martin Jr, does NOT represent Windsor. Any goodwill that he may have assumed from his father was erased when he BLEW his 1st Billion on the gun registery.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The Libs got cold feet and elected a safe "nameless faceless." We'll see if it works out for them.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

William said:


> For the record. In the final ballot, Dion got 74.5 % of the votes cast. Ignatieff got 25.5 %.
> 
> It was a defeat not only for Ignatieff, but above all for the party nomenklatura, who were his original proponents and steady supporters.
> 
> William


For the record, that's not the way it went at all:

CBC News:
Dark horse candidate Stéphane Dion surged from fourth to first to claim the federal Liberal leadership, defeating Michael Ignatieff on Saturday in the final ballot.

*Dion garnered 2,521 votes in the fourth-round tally, or about 54 per cent of the delegates, ahead of Ignatieff, who received 2,084 votes, or about 46 per cent.*

And you talk to me about checking my facts?


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## William (Jan 5, 2004)

SINC said:


> Sure William, since you ARE wrong, I will be happy to correct you.
> 
> Note I said leaders FROM Quebec. I never mentioned if they were French or English speaking at all, just that they were from that province.
> 
> Now, care to retract your accusation?


I have nothing to retract, because I did not accuse of anything. What I said is that you were factually mistaken.

Now, however, I am accusing you of being a quibbler. In evidence of it, I submit the above quotation.

I further note you have chosen to ignore messages pointing to Turner and Martin (to which I believe Lester Pearson should be added) as evidence that your original statement was factually wrong. Would you care to explain why?

William


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## William (Jan 5, 2004)

SINC said:


> For the record, that's not the way it went at all:
> 
> CBC News:
> Dark horse candidate Stéphane Dion surged from fourth to first to claim the federal Liberal leadership, defeating Michael Ignatieff on Saturday in the final ballot.
> ...



I have verified that I had been misinformed. You quote the CBC News online report correctly. Thank you for your correction.

But what are you "confused" about? Have I said anything that is not clear?


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## bishopandarlo (Mar 22, 2006)

SINC said:


> I'm not a Liberal, but I can never figure out how 75% of the delegates who are from outside Quebec keep saddling the rest of the country with a Quebec leader, time, after time after time.


It's proved to be a *winning formula* for Liberals time after time....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

And guess where the last majority Progressive Conservative leader hailed from?.

Every time you fail to learn from history......it gets more expensive.

Dion is no pushover. He came from behind with no "old guard" support and beat both the favourites.



> Dion was already earning a reputation for being principled but prickly before he even stepped into his first cabinet meeting.
> 
> Other university professors might have been downright cheery if they were being courted to join the federal cabinet and taking phone calls from the prime minister's right-hand man.
> 
> ...


:clap: Watch for the fireworks to begin. Recall that crack about a "short holiday season."










Happy warrior indeed........with the emphasis on warrior.

NOW we'll see a green agenda front and centre.

*Prosperity, Social Justice and Sustainability: The Future of Canada*

http://stephanedion.ca/?q=en/Issues-Stronger-040607FutureCanada


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Sinc's observation about Liberal leaders and Quebec ties is perfectly reasonable.

Of the past seven Liberal leaders - St. Laurent, Pearson, Trudeau, Turner, Chretien, Martin and now Dion, only Pearson doesn't have electoral ties to Quebec. That's going back to about 1948!

St. Laurent, Trudeau, Chretien and Dion are all native fils of Quebec.

Martin was born in Windsor, but lives in Montreal and lived there for years working for CSL before running and winning a Montreal-area riding in 1988, more than 15 years before he became Prime Minister.

John Turner, though he was born in Britain, worked in Montreal for years before winning a Montreal seat in 1962 and holding it until he quit in 1975 to work on Bay Street. 

When he came back in 1984, in typically cynical Liberal fashion they found him a seat in B.C. (he spent his childhood there) so they could say he was from Western Canada. I distinctly remember a lot of chatter of how he would have preferred to run in his old Montreal riding, but was discouraged by the Liberal brain trust because Trudeau had left the party's fortunes so low in the west.

It certainly has been a winning formula, just has it has created some understandable resentment out west. 

Personally, I think that at least part of the reason is that Canadians want their Prime Ministers to be bilingual - French and English, that is - and that's difficult in parts of the country where Ukrainian, Polish or even Mandarin and Filipino speakers outnumber French speakers.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Unless the Conservatives do something really outrageous, Dion will crash and burn.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

All along the media and the backroom Liberals who backed Rae and Ignatieff underestimated Dion's tenacity and ability to learn, grow and adapt. 

Now it's the Tories' turn.

Or at least Macfury's.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

William said:


> Now, however, I am accusing you of being a quibbler. In evidence of it, I submit the above quotation.
> 
> I further note you have chosen to ignore messages pointing to Turner and Martin (to which I believe Lester Pearson should be added) as evidence that your original statement was factually wrong. Would you care to explain why?
> 
> William


For a guy with his facts so twisted to call me anything is hardly worth the trouble to respond. I will leave it to Brainstrained to set you straight with the real facts. My "one in 30 years" theory is factually sound indeed. That is twice in this single thread you have been wrong:



Brainstrained said:


> Sinc's observation about Liberal leaders and Quebec ties is perfectly reasonable.
> 
> Of the past seven Liberal leaders - St. Laurent, Pearson, Trudeau, Turner, Chretien, Martin and now Dion, only Pearson doesn't have electoral ties to Quebec. That's going back to about 1948!
> 
> ...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The Cons have already crashed and burned....the country doesn't have time for incompetents. Bye bye Harper. :clap:

Inexperience shows.....big time.

••

Who the hells cares - Quebec is part of Canada and you don;t hear Ontario whining about Quebec based leaders - except perhaps "spend big" Mulroney.

You've got your western PM and he's an embarrassment.

Next...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> The Cons have already crashed and burned....the country doesn't have time for incompetents. Bye bye Harper. :clap:
> 
> Inexperience shows.....big time.
> 
> ...


I'm gonna save and file this post for a reply at an appropriate time.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I'm not sure about "Ontario" whining, but Dion being the third in a row was raised in the press. Another concern was that, aside from Dion, it was a very "Toronto" heavy slate of candidates. This helped Kennedy. I don't care much either way.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> The Libs got cold feet and elected a safe "nameless faceless." We'll see if it works out for them.


as opposed to someone that hasn't lived in Canada for about last 25 years or the other guy who doesn't even hold a seat in the House of Commons

Dion is a former university prof. and he's not a lawyer
he seems to be a "roll up the sleeves" kind of guy


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

This'll be a fun election. Dion will make an interesting historical footnote.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Well, the "not a lawyer" bit might be a help.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

..bout right...


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> ..bout right...


i assume you realized your double entendre?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

So, lemme see, a French speaking Quebecer and former Chretien cabinet minister during the heart of the Adscam scandal, who can barely function in English, who headed up the failed environment department that actually increased pollution volumes under Kyoto during his watch, and now claims to head Canada's "new" green party.

Yep, that'll attract a ton of new Liberal voters. Especially in the west.

Watch Harper KO this guy.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i assume you realized your double entendre?


Double double?

"Bout" for boxing match and "right" for "right-wing" perhaps.

And Stéphane coming in from the left to challenge Stephen cornered on the right.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well according to your own "logic" of the history of elected leaders of the Liberals as Prime Ministers.....the "odds" are very much with Dion.

Shall we go over the Liberal versus Conservative % in power over the last century?...and then we'll just move the Mulroney era into the odds for a Quebecker PM column as well.

Sounds about like 8:2 for Dion.


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## bishopandarlo (Mar 22, 2006)

Looks like Kennedy will be running in Parkdale/High Park, so the Liberals will be getting at least one seat back that was lost in the last election.


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## Fink-Nottle (Feb 25, 2001)

I am really looking forward to the upcoming election. Dion and Harper are both leaders with strong intellectual foundations who are not afraid to make and defend difficult choices. Furthermore, while I think the Conservatives are doing well in some areas, it is clear that Dion's strengths exploit their weaknesses. In particular his environmental sustainability policies are very European and light years ahead of the Conservative plan... and could be a big vote winner I think.

There are two big questions concerning the future of Dion and the Liberals:

1. Can Dion rebuild this very damaged party in time for the next election?

2. If not, will the party keep faith with him or stab him in the back for someone new?


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

SINC said:


> So, lemme see, a French speaking Quebecer and former Chretien cabinet minister during the heart of the Adscam scandal, who can barely function in English, who headed up the failed environment department that actually increased pollution volumes under Kyoto during his watch, and now claims to head Canada's "new" green party.
> 
> Yep, that'll attract a ton of new Liberal voters. Especially in the west.
> 
> Watch Harper KO this guy.


 And a candidate who cared so much about Canada he spent the last 30 years putside of the country, or an ex-NDPer would have been better choices? 
All the other candidates who threw their support behind Dion were from outside, not inside, Quebec. They didn't do that on a whim.
Stephane Dion was not tarred by the Adscam scandal and was not implicated in any way. The party was punished by losing the last election but Stephane Dion cannot be held responsiible for the actions of others.
He stood up to the separatists in a way that hadn't been done in a long time, even though he was vilified at the time for doing so. 
His English, while accented, is perfectly understandable. ( He speaks it better than some who consider it their mother tongue. )
In the end, the voters of Canada will have their say, but the Liberal Party surprised me by not choosing one of the two original front runners. It was almost as if they were acting on principle.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

With the exception of Alberta where would those "very well" constitutents reside? 

With the far right gettig feisty again is there not an equal chance of the Cons having problems holding it together? - they already have in Ontario with Wong and Garth.

I would like to see the Libs concentrate on the party fortunes outside Quebec as I think with the mix of known strong supporters that at least would result in a Lib minority.
I doubt Quebec is solvable for the Libs and it depends on how much pandering Harper can or will undertake.
For seats gained in Quebec he stands to lose elsewhere.

I agree it's nice to see strong policy from the Libs and Gerrard may indeed be Kingmaker on a broader scope.
He will pull Ontario and NDP votes.

Harper better get his green geared up - it's even a big issue in the states now at the state level and Number 2 wih a bullet in Canadian voters minds.

Cameron in Britain has grabbed and even Howard is making green noises.

Harper is clearly in danger of being painted alongside Bush and we know what happened there.

It's too bad as the environment could be one area that would get the whole bunch of clowns working to govern instead of posture.

As I said before being a minority PM is the only way for the right to participate fully but it takes willingness on all sides to do so.

Dumb moves like overturning the Kelowna Accord will haunt them.....and there's no few pissed off women.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Dion is no pushover. He came from behind with no "old guard" support and beat both the favourites.
> 
> 
> > Dion was the only cabinet minister invited to Chrétien's cottage at Harrington Lake, and shared countless hours with him and his wife Aline.


The "old guard" support described in the article you quoted may well come back to haunt Dion.


MacDoc said:


> NOW we'll see a green agenda front and centre.


Don't count on it - the Liberals were in power for a lot longer than the Conservatives, and their record on the environment isn't exactly stellar. Talk is cheap. Unfortunately, people *say* they care about the environment, until the required changes impact them. What would happen to a party who decided to slap Ontario's struggling auto industry with some tough new regulations just as we head into a recession, even if it was the right thing to do for the environment?

Europe is ahead of all of us here - although cynics might argue that it has been easy for them to improve as antiquated Eastern bloc industrial facilities are either shut down or modernized.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I love that crappy editorial cartoon. Just a put a big head on anything, and it will appear daunting. The "Dion"Juggernaut" is an amusing concept. That big head will look good on a plaque, beside the stuffed Paul Martin head.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yep the previous Libs sucked on the environment but that was classic Martin - a lot of talk and little action until he was forced to spend.

All the things he wanted COULD have been passed when he had a majority.....idjit.

I feel Dion and Kennedy will actually execute.
Canada at 51st out of 56 and the embarrassment at Nairobi will give all parties no choice.
'Bout time.
My understanding is Dion can move quickly on policy and has promised to do so. We'll soon see.

••

Not many heads to stuff on the Con side - strange that- of course there is the Mulroney meltdown to look upon fondly and another world class embarrassment.

MF you remind of "champagne on the plane"....many wishful bubbles clouding judgement.

Seems ALL the Con supporters can do with a few exceptions here are point fingers and make vacuous comments instead of pointing to their boys accomplishments and defending cogently why being 51st out of 56 on the environment is "good policy" and a "proud achievement" for Harper.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Sounds about like 8:2 for Dion.


Not according to this:


> If the Liberals are led by Stephane Dion, the results would be: Conservatives (35 per cent); Liberals (27 per cent); NDP (19 per cent); Bloc (nine per cent); Greens (seven per cent); Don't know (four per cent).


source: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=6b8989fe-5438-4ac2-a1c1-98a012fd198a

Personally I think it is too early to predict who might win the next election, my only predictions are:
-We will get another minority government.
-The country will continue to be polarized, with no one party attracting broad support in all regions.
-Things will continue like this for the foreseeable future.


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## William (Jan 5, 2004)

SINC said:


> For a guy with his facts so twisted to call me anything is hardly worth the trouble to respond. I will leave it to Brainstrained to set you straight with the real facts. My "one in 30 years" theory is factually sound indeed. That is twice in this single thread you have been wrong:


As I read your statements, your intolerance of French Canadians shines through your quibbling pretense that your complaint has nothing to do with linguistic/ethnic differences, but only with the riding where Liberal leaders have been elected. What you imply, I believe, is that they have favoured Quebec against the interests of the ROC.

If that is what you really believe, you should say so, instead of casting a stone and then hiding your hand. If it is not, please explain exactly what you are complaining about.

William


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> ...defending cogently why being 51st out of 56 on the environment is "good policy" and a "proud achievement" for Harper.


Shall we just rename this the "Greenhouse Gas" forum and get it over with? Mama Mia what a bore!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Umm PenB are you as math challenged as Sinc?
I'm referring to the time in power over the last century and Quebec based PMs including Mulroney.
It was also tongue in cheek to a degree just turning around the "always a Quebecker" complaint.

I don't think anyone is in line for a majority and we'll see if Dion can rope the various factions into a unified political machine.

As to the Old guard - Dion has ZERO taint of scandal and has stood up to them both now and as shown in the article.
He's nobody's "boy" and gets respect for that.
It also may be a flaw in getting elected.
There were rumblings about that in the campaign.

I think Kennedy stands to be the integrator.

PenB I agree with your assessment of not alot of movement anytime soon tho environment is a wild card.

••*
Why yes indeed MF you are indeed a denier bore ......
you're completely out of step with Canadian's concerns and have nothing to contribute except lame complaints.
It's front and centre except for a few dullards of which you are a classic.
I thought only the west had a "sour gas" problem. 

The problem won't go away - but your inane complaints could to our ever lasting delight.

What you think? I bugged Dion to make environment HIS centrepiece??


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

I like Rick Mercer's take on the results.



> At the end of the day though, watching Dion on stage, I couldn’t help but be amazed at his physical presence. The Liberals went into this convention with a host of choices. They could have gone with a battle-tested politician, a former athlete, a world famous academic or a food bank founder from the West; at the end of the day they choose the nerd.
> 
> That’s pretty Canadian.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

William said:


> As I read your statements, your intolerance of French Canadians shines through your quibbling pretense that your complaint has nothing to do with linguistic/ethnic differences, but only with the riding where Liberal leaders have been elected. What you imply, I believe, is that they have favoured Quebec against the interests of the ROC.
> 
> If that is what you really believe, you should say so, instead of casting a stone and then hiding your hand. If it is not, please explain exactly what you are complaining about.
> 
> William


Sigh. You read way more into my posts than one can imagine.

I simply stated that I find it odd that a province with only 25% of the population is the home of every PM but one in the past 30 years. That's NOT complaining, that is an observation.

I'm not intolerant of French Canadians in any way, shape or form. 

Just so you don't read another of your "fairy tales" into this reply, I am NOT tolerant of the Bloc and their desire to break up Canada. NO provincial party bent on separation should ever have been allowed in Parliament, but that does not make me anti French.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> What you think? I bugged Dion to make environment HIS centrepiece??


No, you made it your centrepiece, and the bloom is off that rose.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Dion just said that he needs "fresh blood". This is already more entertaining.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Just jumping in here, 7 pages in, but I just want to say:

HA HA HA HA

The Liberals have just handed the Conservatives another government. Minority at the least. Majority at the best.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

guytoronto said:


> Just jumping in here, 7 pages in, but I just want to say:
> 
> HA HA HA HA
> 
> The Liberals have just handed the Conservatives another government. Minority at the least. Majority at the best.


Yep, that's the way that everyone but the Liberals see it!


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

He comes off as sincere, which the Libs badly need. I think this is far from over either way, especially now that the vampire vote is in play.


----------



## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

It was funny listening to news commentators saying this is an early Christmas gift for Harper.


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## bishopandarlo (Mar 22, 2006)

guytoronto said:


> It was funny listening to news commentators saying this is an early Christmas gift for Harper.


And the media is always right!? 

I don't believe that Ignatieff or Rae would have delivered even a minority. With Dion there's a much better chance.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Nor are they of one voice.....quite a broad brush you paint with there GT.

The pollsters and the media have got Ontario wrong the last two elections and called this leadership convention result wrong as well.

That sounds to me a pretty suspect bunch to rely on for accurate prognostication for your boy.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sometimes a change is as good as a loss.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

guytoronto said:


> It was funny listening to news commentators saying this is an early Christmas gift for Harper.


Ah yes, the commentators. The pundit!. Rather like the band of punditeers in here. Fractious, incestuous, baiting, quirky, occasionally insightful... always masterful at second-guessing.

Already the race to cast Dion as _something_ has begun. He's a nerd. No, he's a dark horse. No wait, he's a faceless nameless guy. No, he's a present to Harper!

Rather than let the noble punditocracy decide the question for me, I think I'll wait to see what this Dion guy does to mold his own image.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> That sounds to me a pretty suspect bunch to rely on for accurate prognostication for your boy.


Yep, about as suspect as all those here who predicted a Liberal win in the last election. That's why I pay no attention to 'em now concerning the next election.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Or predicted a Con majority.

I think most Liberals knew the gov was inline for a time in opposition and voted their thoughts so that was no surprise last election.

I dare say there were more "champagne Cons" than surprised Liberals.
Everyone got Ontario wrong.....again.
Likely will in round 3.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Where are you getting this "everyone got Ontario" wrong thing? Do you mean without perfect accuracy?

These guys did quite well:

http://www.electionprediction.org/2005_fed/p_35on.html

I also remember that one or all of the popular vote polls did well (the difficulty being in running that through a model to predict seats) and the general commentary at the time was varied but the results didn't seem surprising. Maybe you're referring to just that week or two with a majority in reach? Or the beginning of the campaign when the Libs seemed ready for yet another government?


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

*Dion and Pro-Rep*

Now that Dion has been elected leader and has a shot at becoming PM, I thought it was about time I found out a little more about him than what the sound bites have revealed.

What I discovered was someone who appears to have a working brain and some actual convictions as opposed to coached talking points. Although Dion often appears wooden, as least from an Anglophone standpoint, he seems to have the ability to think for himself and seems to have also carefully considered many of the nation's important issues. He appears to be someone who is speaking what he believes. Harper does not appear wooden to me, but does appear to be more than a little too oily and as many observed during the last election, untrustworthy. I'm now of the opinion that many who are discounting Dion compared to Harper might be seriously underestimating him.

Being very interested in the subject of proportional representation, I wanted to find out what Dion's standing on that issue was, if any. What I found was that he has done quite a bit of study on the issue and has spoke at length about it. He seems to be cautiously in favour of a German-style mixed member proportional system. 

Speech notes posted on Dion's web site shows that he is well aware of the deficiencies of first-past-the-post systems (with footnotes!):



> I now come to our first-past-the-post electoral system. I already pointed out its great advantage: it allows a party in power to exercise leadership and assume the consequences at election time. But this system also has some obvious disadvantages. I see four of these.
> 
> First, it makes it possible for a party to come to power without a plurality of the popular vote, as is the case in my province today. Second, election results can produce an opposition without enough MPs to play its proper role. Third, it tends to artificially accentuate the regional concentration of political parties. For example, we Liberals have almost all the seats in Ontario, even though half of Ontarians did not vote for us. In the West, we are under-represented in Parliament when we actually received the support of one quarter of the voters.
> 
> ...


His support of pro-rep was expressed more directly in an exclusive interview with an NDP blogger from Edmonton calling herself Idealistic Pragmatist:



> I'll come around now to the fourth and final thing I was looking for: an interest both in democratic and electoral reform and in moving beyond that to changing Canada's toxic political culture. I had read previously in Miles Lunn's blog that Dion had been positive about the German Mixed-Member Proportional voting system (which combines our current system with compensatory seats that would come from some sort of party list, making the result proportional), so I began there. He confirmed that yes, he is personally in favour of a reform toward a system that would involve two-thirds of the seats being elected as they are now and a further one-third through "compensatory proportional representation," adding that he would want a "five percent threshhold in every province" (meaning that a party would have to attain at least 5% of the vote in any given province in order to gain seats there). In fact, he says that he once wrote a book chapter with University of Saskatchewan professor and electoral systems expert John Courtney, outlining the details of the proposal he favoured. All this was delightful to hear, especially after my disappointing encounter with Gerard Kennedy, who didn't even seem to know what proportional representation was. Also, the reason Dion gave for his support for this reform is one of my own main reasons for favouring proportional representation: he wants to "guarantee that each region of our country is not marginalized," i.e., to make it possible for, say, a Liberal government to have MPs elected in areas where they tend to be weaker, so that one region of a country doesn't dominate another.
> 
> For all this positive talk about electoral reform, though, he's clearly not willing to push it himself. "That is a debate that I cannot impose as a candidate in this race," he said, because "it's something that we will need to have a parliamentary review to look at." All he is willing to commit to as prime minister is "an open debate with the people discussing it and coming with their solutions and their suggestions and we'll see if a consensus may come from it." This is similar to what Paul Martin promised but didn't deliver on, and it falls far short of a real federal-level citizens' assembly on electoral reform similar to the ones they had in B.C. and currently have in Ontario, followed by a cross-country referendum. To me, this suggests that Dion wouldn't be willing to give the voters the power to make real decisions on their electoral system, which worries me.
> 
> Much more of a concern, though, is the fact that he doesn't seem to have thought beyond the theoretical details of his favoured reform to the changes that it would necessarily make in our political culture. When asked about what he would do if his party attained a minority of seats under his leadership, he said "I'm confident that we can win a majority" in three different ways. In fact, he regards the fact that a his favoured system would produce few, if any, single-party majority governments as "a problem of the reform." When asked directly about his openness to forming a coalition with another party, he ignored the question entirely, and when I later pointed out that the electoral system he favours has almost always tended to produce coalitions in other countries, he said that "Canada is not accustomed to having coalitions, and I'm not sure that Canadians are ready for that." This is precisely the kind of thing that gave me pause about my own party's adversarial rhetoric surrounding their new aim of forming a government--if you're in favour of some form of proportional representation, you can't at the same time be against government coalitions. This is a simple fact, because any form of proportional representation would make it very difficult for any one party to attain a majority in Canada, and going on forever with the current status quo of single-party minority governments is entirely untenable. Rather than viewing the end of phony single-party majority governments as a downside, why not see it as an opportunity to transform our political culture into one where there would be true cooperation between parties in government? It works in Europe, so why not here? I continue to find it incredibly disappointing that no politicians in Canada are talking about this aspect of electoral reform, even those who supposedly favour it.


The blogger notes that Dion seemed to be backing off actually pushing for this system that he claimed to be in favour of and I put that down to the addictive siren song of majority government's near-dictatorial power. It's clear that since Reformers and other conservatives have started to believe since the last election that they might actually get their hands on a majority, all talk and prior support of pro-rep has been quietly clubbed to death and buried in the back yard.

It would be astonishing for a Liberal leader to actually come out in favour of pro-rep, since the raison-detre of the LPC for its entire history has been the pursuit and retention of majority government power. Being the largest beneficiaries of majority government power for decades meant that followers of the Liberal Party have been the least likely to be interested in electoral reform.

I think that the chances of any single party gaining majority status in Canada is far more difficult now and into the future than in the past, especially with the Bloc's strong hold on Quebec seats. Dion doesn't seem likely to do much in the province either, - if he can manage to win an election I think it would be as a minority leader.

I would hope that if he is as intelligent and as principled as he appears to be then he would see the wisdom of opening up the chances for proportional representation. If he is truly a believer in a Canada where "each region of our country is not marginalized", then maybe there is a chance he might just do this. But if he were to win a majority, then I doubt that one would be able to find a web site on Google where "Stephane Dion" and "proportional representation" appear on the same page.


----------



## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Sorry for the long last post. I wrote it late last night and finished it this morning. I guess I need my own blog or something. 

I was listening to an interview with Dion this morning and I think I actually like this guy! There hasn't been a whole lot I could say that I liked about the Liberals and their leaders for a very, very long time, other than they weren't the Cons, so I'm actually surprised myself.

I don't know about all his policies yet but I think he's a guy to be respected. So far what I've seen is a lot of honesty, integrity and intelligence coming through. I think the perception that conservatives are trying to make become the conventional wisdom, that is he is an uncharismatic loser, won't stick once people start to see who he is.

I also heard the Alberta arch-conservative Link Byfield on the radio this morning stating that he believes Dion is being underestimated and that he is the Liberal candidate that actually scares him.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

From Warren Kinsella on Harper and Dion:
..............................
The two men are very alike, having run into them once or twice, and having admired both. Plan-oriented, underestimated, ethical, shy, sometimes awkward, suspicious of political hoopla and excess emotion. Both Trudeauesque, in way, without the pirouettes. (And I note they both had Trudeau's constitutional view until last week's "nation" debacle, too. But that's a complaint for another day.)

What should you know about Stephane Dion and Stephen Harper? Well, when our 17-year-old nephew was killed this Summer - an only child, a remarkable young man who we miss every day - we heard from Stephane Dion and Stephen Harper. They were exceedingly kind. 

That told me then, as now, that both share another a key attribute - they are both quiet, honest, decent men. And it is the country that will ultimately benefit from that - whomever wins. 
..............................

http://www.warrenkinsella.com/musings.htm


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Sorry for the long last post. I wrote it late last night and finished it this morning.


Mais non, *GA*... Merci beaucoup! 

I was wandering through this long thread of bickering about whose fault the "leader from Quebec" is when I come across *your* post complete with links that might actually fill me in more completely on what this person is like.

I personally have no problem with a PM from Quebec... Trudeau is up there as probably my favourite PM... NEP non-withstanding. I was born in B.C. lived in Alberta for 30 yrs. Don't call me an Alberta *******! Looking at Alberta now... NEP didn't do any serious long term harm what so ever... it was all a temporary "hissy-fit". 

Good news in Alberta as well... so far as I can tell Ed Stelmach is the new Premier although I have not heard 100% confirmation of this yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Stelmach


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dreambird said:


> Good news in Alberta as well... so far as I can tell Ed Stelmach is the new Premier although I have not heard 100% confirmation of this yet:


Now you know:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/03/alta-tories.html?ref=rss


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## Dreambird (Jan 24, 2006)

Yes... thank-you 

I looked at the Sunday Sun which I have delivered in the middle of the night instead of the computer first, I guess they weren't sure at the time of printing.


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## daBoss (Jun 20, 2003)

SINC said:


> I'm not a Liberal, but I can never figure out how 75% of the delegates who are from outside Quebec keep saddling the rest of the country with a Quebec leader, time, after time after time.
> 
> It's just an observation since it does not affect me, that is until 75% of Canadians from outside Quebec elect one. Then it just POs me as usual.


News Flash: Sinc is not a Liberal. Wow. I never knew.

As for your comments, I guess that's because you confuse geography with individual values and character. WHERE you're from is far less important than WHAT you are. Too bad more of my fellow Albertans cannot grasp this idea. Failure to grasp this basic concept is akin to feudalism where land rights trumped human rights.

Oh well, c'est la vie. (Sinc, this means "that's life" just in case your translation widget is not installed.)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

daBoss said:


> News Flash: Sinc is not a Liberal. Wow. I never knew.
> 
> As for your comments, I guess that's because you confuse geography with individual values and character.
> 
> Oh well, c'est la vie. (Sinc, this means "that's life" just in case your translation widget is not installed.)


Yep, most of 'em have been "characters" all right.

And thanks for the translation, although I did happen to know that phrase. Most who toss French at me are not as kind and I appreciate that.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Sinc (and other Conservative voters), just a question for you out of curiousity.

Of the liberal party leader candidates, who would you think would do the best job as Liberal party leader and why?

Or, to ward off the facetious "worst possible candidate so that the conservative government will definitely win", who do you think would give Harper the best run for his money in the next election?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Sonal said:


> Sinc (and other Conservative voters), just a question for you out of curiousity.
> 
> Of the liberal party leader candidates, who would you think would do the best job as Liberal party leader and why?
> 
> Or, to ward off the facetious "worst possible candidate so that the conservative government will definitely win", who do you think would give Harper the best run for his money in the next election?


Bob Rae, no question. If he could pull of that unscripted speech looking that comfortable while Harper stood like a mannequin in a debate, he would have swayed a lot of voters. Dion and Harper appear to be two peas in a pod and will be a bit like watching the stiffness of a high school debate.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Bob Rae, no question. If he could pull of that unscripted speech looking that comfortable while Harper stood like a mannequin in a debate, he would have swayed a lot of voters. Dion and Harper appear to be two peas in a pod and will be a bit like watching the stiffness of a high school debate.


i think Dion is not as comfortable in English as he is in French and as such remains less emotional in English than in French

I do hear and see more emotion when he speaks in French


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

He'll be okay - that "accent" is endearing to a nation of immigrants - almost like sausages in the mailbox.

Few people I know make judgements on appearance or sounds bites on who to elect. It has some effect but given this is Canada - too smooth and polished might have a more negative one.

Harper is the proof - awkward but the last election was tightly scripted and based on policy. There will be TWO like that this time around as I understand Dion is a careful planner.

There is a gaping hole in the Con platform right now that requires some pretty quick patching before Harper et al trips - even more than they have already.
Dion has made it one of the three central foundations for his campaign.

I'd like tp see Rae stumping for the Libs - it would be poor sportmanship to attract the support he had and then not run.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> He'll be okay - that "accent" is endearing to a nation of immigrants - almost like sausages in the mailbox..


What does "sausages in the mailbox" conjure up for you Doc?


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Macfury said:


> What does "sausages in the mailbox" conjure up for you Doc?


Isn't that from the SSM thread?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Macfury said:


> What does "sausages in the mailbox" conjure up for you Doc?



you mean "sausages in the malebox" ?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i think Dion is not as comfortable in English as he is in French and as such remains less emotional in English than in French
> 
> I do hear and see more emotion when he speaks in French


He was pretty "emotional" during a press conference earlier today. Effervescent even.

He's clearly thrilled, and seems genuinely surprised by the turn of events. And he definitely wants to go after the Conservatives, and claim his very own brass ring. Oh, and he seems to want to help us Canadians too. Genuinely.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Oh, and he seems to want to help us Canadians too. Genuinely.


I think you could say that about most who get involved in public life - at least initially. The only thing that differs is the approach.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

PenguinBoy said:


> I think you could say that about most who get involved in public life - at least initially. The only thing that differs is the approach.


Perhaps about most, but Stephen Harper never spoke to me that way.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

HowEver said:


> He was pretty "emotional" during a press conference earlier today. Effervescent even.
> 
> He's clearly thrilled, and seems genuinely surprised by the turn of events. And he definitely wants to go after the Conservatives, and claim his very own brass ring. Oh, and he seems to want to help us Canadians too. Genuinely.



i missed that press conference
been scanning cbc all day hoping to catch one
any more info. you can report?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

HowEver said:


> Perhaps about most, but Stephen Harper never spoke to me that way.


must... resist urge to.... make harpo joke....
[pokes self with fork]


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Perhaps about most, but Stephen Harper never spoke to me that way.


You probably just don't agree with Stephen Harper about what is right for the country, but I'm sure at some level he got involved in public life because he thought he could make a difference.

Why else would he bother? A guy like that could make a whole lot more money in private industry, with less hassle and uncertainty.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

HowEver--maybe you're the emotional type?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

PenguinBoy said:


> You probably just don't agree with Stephen Harper about what is right for the country, but I'm sure at some level he got involved in public life because he thought he could make a difference.
> 
> Why else would he bother? A guy like that could make a whole lot more money in private industry, with less hassle and uncertainty.


I'm inclined to agree, but it must be noted that some people get into politics because they're egotists who feed on media attention.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If there were not so many lawyers engaged in politics I MIGHT be inclined to agree with the "public service" aspect but appearances would seem to dictate otherwise.

I think Hazel McCallion certainly has a vision and her "reward" is seeing it unfold under her direction over 30 years.

The 4 year guys and pension after 6.......I'm not so sure.
Clearly people like Tommy Douglas and perhaps Stephen Douglas are truly public servants.

That vision and effort appears lacking - one reason public confidence is so low for politicians...what was it in Canada 14% ??!!

Someone like Dion who is clearly there by choice ( he had a fine academic career ) gives me a bit more confidence.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sausages in the mailbox?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Awaiting clarification on that point as well.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

What do YOU think it means 
There ARE other threads on politics in play - I'm not going to do your reading for you.
If you choose to remain uninformed too that's your burden to bear.

••••

Media hounds??.......not sure that's much of a motivator - I think pols do have to work hard,
I'd more suspect access to the "corridors of power" for a variety of reasons - some perhaps financial.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

LOL

Touched a nerve, did I? I was curious about the sausage thing but given your little blue ball of concentrated anger, I'll be mindful from here on in.

As for your 'media hounds' outburst, I would hope you don't think that I am actually in favour of all politicians slacking off on our dime. But in any case, it's not a big deal.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Macfury said:


> HowEver--maybe you're the emotional type?


Only in contrast to Stephen Harper, but that would be the rest of us then.

As for him making more in the private sector, sure, what was he before, an "economist" with a masters degree perhaps? Right.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

HowEver said:


> Only in contrast to Stephen Harper, but that would be the rest of us then.
> 
> As for him making more in the private sector, sure, what was he before, an "economist" with a masters degree perhaps? Right.


and leader of the NCC
i don't think that paid all that well


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I searched "sausage in the mailbox" on the internet and couldn't find it. I honestly didn't expect this level of anger.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

HowEver said:


> As for him making more in the private sector, sure, what was he before, an "economist" with a masters degree perhaps? Right.


Anyone who could claw their way to the leadership of a political party, bring two camps within the party together, and win an election could probably do *very* well in private industry.

I doubt he would be lecturing on Economics in a Community Colledge somewhere...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Sausages in the mailbox?


Since it was me who brought forward the sausage in the mailbox line, allow me to clarify it so you can play nice now boys.

In the "Alberta Leadership Vote" thread on the morning of Sunday, December 3, I posted the following:



SINC said:


> I got a call this morning from a couple who have been friends for years, one on each phone. They told me to look in my mail box. When I asked why, they told me there was a garlic sausage in it. When did you put it there?, I asked. Ha ha they said in unison. There's one in every mail box in Alberta this morning now that Stelmach is our premier. The joy of this Ukrainian couple at a leader they consider to be "their" kind was obvious.
> 
> Geez, even MACSPECTRUM will now have to be careful of insulting Ukrainians if he rants about our new premier like he did against old Ralphie.


http://www.ehmac.ca/showthread.php?t=47191&page=6


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Sinc, thanks for clearing that one up.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Thanks, SINC!


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

So much for our blissful ignorance of correspondence meat references.

"A chicken in every pot" gets a new attitude.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

And there I was thinking that it was some quaint (and subtly unnerving) custom observed in Mississauga.


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## bishopandarlo (Mar 22, 2006)

Rae says he intends to run in the next election. Any speculation as to where he will run considering he lives in Kennedy's old provincial riding?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well I'm glad of that - he's a good guy and quite frankly while he was my first choice I thought Dion would win and now I'm glad of it.

I'm not 100% sure Rae has the "fire in the belly" as a leader I think this next year needs. I do think he will be a strong contributor and his links with Demarais and Power Corp will always be useful in the background.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I remember volunteering as a student in 1984 to be interviewed to help Rae develop a position on student employment. When I mentioned that unions provided a high barrier to entry for students in several fields, other students began to chime in that unions were perceived as one of their biggest challenges in finding employment as well. At the end of the meeeting, any complaints about unions were conveniently dropped from the summation of the "mini-summit."


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Since it was me who brought forward the sausage in the mailbox line, allow me to clarify it so you can play nice now boys.
> 
> In the "Alberta Leadership Vote" thread on the morning of Sunday, December 3, I posted the following:
> 
> ...


oh, is Stelmach of Ukrainian heritage?


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> oh, is Stelmach of Ukrainian heritage?


Yes.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> oh, is Stelmach of Ukrainian heritage?


Just for you Michael:

"Ed Stelmach was first elected to the legislature in the 1993 provincial election. He entered Cabinet in 1997 serving as Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development until 1999. Subsequently, he was Minister of Infrastructure and Minister of Transportation before becoming Intergovernmental Relations Minister in 2004.
Before entering Cabinet, Stelmach served as Deputy Whip and then Chief Government Whip and had served as chairman of the Alberta Agricultural Research Institute and a member of the Standing Policy Committees on Community Services and Health Restructuring. He has also served on Treasury Board, the Agenda and Priorities Committee and the Standing Policy Committees on Agriculture and Rural Development.
Prior to entering provincial politics, Stelmach served variously as Lamont County Reeve, a school trustee and chair of the Vegreville Health Unit board.
Stelmach attended the University of Alberta, then worked in the retail business for 11 years before returning to the family farm.
Stelmach's grandfather, Nicholas, arrived in Alberta from the western Ukraine district of Radekhiv with his wife, Theodora Kuchera and settled on the homestead south of Andrew, Alberta in 1898. 
Ed Stelmach grew up on the farm as the youngest of five children. Stelmach has raised his own four children on the farm his grandfather established."


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Just for you Michael:
> 
> "Ed Stelmach was first elected to the legislature in the 1993 provincial election. He entered Cabinet in 1997 serving as Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development until 1999. Subsequently, he was Minister of Infrastructure and Minister of Transportation before becoming Intergovernmental Relations Minister in 2004.
> Before entering Cabinet, Stelmach served as Deputy Whip and then Chief Government Whip and had served as chairman of the Alberta Agricultural Research Institute and a member of the Standing Policy Committees on Community Services and Health Restructuring. He has also served on Treasury Board, the Agenda and Priorities Committee and the Standing Policy Committees on Agriculture and Rural Development.
> ...


i see that my skills to be "ironic" are sadly lacking
and i used a wink emoticon and everything...

of course I know Ed Stelmach is of Ukrainian heritage

oh well, i had better not quit my day job...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i see that my skills to be "ironic" are sadly lacking
> and i used a wink emoticon and everything...
> 
> of course I know Ed Stelmach is of Ukrainian heritage
> ...


I knew you knew, but now you know more!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> I knew you knew, but now you know more!


my stelmach file was reasonably complete, but thanks for confirming most of the info.

the only info. i don't have on "steady eddy" is does he prefer his perogies with potatoes and cheddar cheese or potatoes and cottage cheese?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Your "day job" is right now fixing your house - you CAN'T quit......much as you'd like to 

Must be gettin' mightly cold and drafty now 

••••

How long a honeymoon period for Dion you think?? 6 hours maybe 

Seems Jack's a bit jittery already


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

It seems Steady Eddie is no pushover:

“EDMONTON - Premier-designate Ed Stelmach said he has no intention of trying to slow down the growth of oilsands development in northern Alberta.”

AND:

“Stelmach was at times more combative during his news conference than he was on the campaign trail. He warned federal Liberal Leader Stephane Dion and anyone else who would harm Alberta's oil and gas industry that he's no pushover.
"I am going tell them right off the bat that they have to be careful as to the kind of policies they start articulating," he said. "Any damage to Alberta's economy is going to severely hurt Ottawa and their treasury as well."


Full story here:

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourn...b4fb2-bbb6-43ba-9b10-67df49d5fbfa&k=77256&p=2


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

So he says it's okay for Alberta to pollute the planet ( and no that's not an overstatement) and that Alberta won't pay for it.

Well I'd say that's a pretty clear gauntlet.

He just lost any respect I might have had.

Bring on the NEP - if Alberta can't get it through it's collective apparently thick skull that dirty money is not acceptable....the rest of Canada WILL have a say in it.

There are a few thin votes between Federal action and Alberta inaction.
I suggest your newly minted premiere do something before the majority of the rest of the country does. 

Even the oil companies know it's inevitable, get on with it, put the caps and pollution rules in place in Alberta .........or Ottawa WILL. 

Geez a planetary example of "more money than brains".


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> So he says it's okay for Alberta to pollute the planet ( and no that's not an overstatement) and that Alberta won't pay for it.


No, he said that he won't allow Alberta's economy to be hurt by Ottawa. I don't believe he's articulated anything like what you've said in that article. If he's said it elsewhere, though, it's OK if you find the source.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

i believe he said an SUV in every garage and perogies in every pot !!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> No, he said that he won't allow Alberta's economy to be hurt by Ottawa. I don't believe he's articulated anything like what you've said in that article. If he's said it elsewhere, though, it's OK if you find the source.


You've struck upon the key MF.

There ARE ways to address oil sands development with less harm to our economy. Reading in things not there and huffing and puffing about another NEP is totally arrogant and sure to delay any real progress. If the Feds impose such draconian measures, they would have one more province wanting separation in a heart beat.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> So he says it's okay for Alberta to pollute the planet ( and no that's not an overstatement) and that Alberta won't pay for it.


Did you read the same article I did? I searched thoroughly for your exact words and couldn't find them anywhere. I even expanded my search criteria for implication and SWAG and nothing came up. However, the BS detector rang pretty loud during the perusal of your response.



MacDoc said:


> Well I'd say that's a pretty clear gauntlet.


The only clear gauntlet here is the opinion of certain people who read only what they want into an issue, instead of actually paying attention to what is being said.



MacDoc said:


> He just lost any respect I might have had.


I'm sure he'll lose sleep over that.



MacDoc said:


> Bring on the NEP - if Alberta can't get it through it's collective apparently thick skull that dirty money is not acceptable....the rest of Canada WILL have a say in it.


Ah, yes, the NEP card. It was only a short matter of time before that was played. Careful what hardware you bring to the poker table MacDoc, someone may have a bigger one. 

(Jumping up and down) "If I don't get want I waaaaaant, I'm going to bring back the NEPeeeeeee."

I say, bring it on. This time, Albertans won't be so complacent. 

I've no issues becoming 'greener'. However, if it's at the cost of the complete petroleum based energy sector and the subsequent national economic fallout, then we really haven't accomplished much now, have we?

Oh, wait. We'll be poor and proud...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Attaboy FeXL! Sick 'em!


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## Mugatu (Mar 31, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> So he says it's okay for Alberta to pollute the planet ( and no that's not an overstatement) and that Alberta won't pay for it.
> 
> Well I'd say that's a pretty clear gauntlet.
> 
> ...


:lmao: That's the best piece of sarcasm I've seen in ages. Bravo MacDoc. :clap: 

All joking aside. I believe he meant any unwarranted and ill conceived PETty money grabs by Ottawa.

Now, if they brought on an oil sands tax where it was re-invested into the oil sands to force the companies to use environmentally friendly processes, then I think Ed would have a hard time saying no. NEP part deux is not the answer.

Oh, and notice how I was able to write this entire post with out unnecessarily capitalizing words. Yay for me!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

You'll note that the Dion thread is now the Alberta Premiere Global Warming thread, which joins the official GHG thread, which joins the STERN Global Warming thread, which joins the....


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## Mugatu (Mar 31, 2005)

Yikes, sorry. Didn't notice that all the threads have been derailed.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Of course NEP part II is not the answer ..the answer is for ALBERTA..not the Feds to step and do what, the oil companies, most of the people of Canada and a good part of the world are asking them to do - put in caps and legislation so the playing field is level and let them make money on the emerging technologies.

At least somebody gets it....and WILL do something about it if Alberta doesn't.



> "i want to see green house gas emissions go down *and profits go up*"
> - Stephane Dion


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> ....and let them make money on the emerging technologies.


Not this canard again. You could go broke making all this money from green technologies.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

"i want to see green house gas emissions go down and profits go up"

That want has nothing to do with getting it. But this is an interesting discussion that you and MF kickstarted. It even has a home with some input from me in another thread. The official GHG thread.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Which needn't merely be a repository for fart jokes, either.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Which needn't merely be a repository for fart jokes, either.


And certainly isn't merely such a repository.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Max said:


> Which needn't merely be a repository for fart jokes, either.



ralph klein has officially retired
leave him alone...


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> And certainly isn't merely such a repository.


Never said it was. Just what I had feared it was becoming plagued by.

For the record, I'm all for containing all of the GHG-related chatter, hectoring, facts, factoids and fear to one ongoing thread.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max: It really is a good idea. I will try to stick to that. Hope others can bring themselves to do the same.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Me too. A little bit of overlap I can take. But too much threadjacking is annoying.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Dion may not owe the Liberal powers-that-be anything, but he owes someone money.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061205.wxlibsdebt05/BNStory/National/home

...........................
According to the most recent declarations, the candidates have the following debt levels: Bob Rae: $845,000; Stéphane Dion: $430,000; Ken Dryden: $300,000; Gerard Kennedy: $201,750; Scott Brison: $200,000; Joe Volpe: $180,000; Michael Ignatieff: $170,000 and Martha Hall Findlay: $130,000.
...........................


I hope they don't break thumbs or demand payola. Given the choice, he seems like too nice a guy to wish broken thumbs upon.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Macfury said:


> No, he said that he won't allow Alberta's economy to be hurt by Ottawa. I don't believe he's articulated anything like what you've said in that article. If he's said it elsewhere, though, it's OK if you find the source.


Alberta has an economy outside the oil sands?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Alberta has an economy outside the oil sands?


Yep. Most of the economy. 

I know, it was a joke. Just in case others don't realise it.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Just found out today that Alberta imports more from Ontario and Quebec than it exports to them. Strange world. QC seems reasonable, because it gets almost all of its oil from overseas (still gets AB gas) and I guess AB is importing so many financial services and manufactured goods that the ON financial/manufacturing heartland gets a good chunk of business. Wonderful country, what with all the working together and not hating each other.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Watching Dion on CTV. 

The "francophone" bluntness, similar to Duceppe is appealing. It has nothing to do with the accent, if that's the impression I'm giving. It is about the content. 

The approach could place him into many traps in the future but, personally, I prefer the delayed yet thoughtful dialogue over the slick answer/non-answer that dominates anglophone politics. I understand the need to spin, but there's spin and then there is SPIN.

That doesn't mean I'll vote for him if he bluntly supports things I don't like, but it does mean less of the usual promise "discount" if he deepens his performance as an honest fellow. I will keep an eye out for looney populist suggestions.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Are we having a nice monologue here Beej 

I also like his forthright manner - I suspect his somewhat fractured English might soften it a bit for us.
Likely a fire breather in French......can anyone comment on that?

That was a worry with Rae as it clearly was a weakness of Martin's - unwillingness to be blunt and perhaps offend.
Chretien on the other hand was at his vitriolic best at the convention in naiing Harper.

I suspect Dion will be a bit more professorial than gutter fighter as Chretien was but far more to the point and call to action oriented than Martin.
Any fireworks today? ( out of touch ).


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Albert also imports more Ontarians than most other provinces. I'm sure 1/3 of Albertans must be from here, but after a few years they won't admit it.




Beej said:


> Just found out today that Alberta imports more from Ontario and Quebec than it exports to them. Strange world. QC seems reasonable, because it gets almost all of its oil from overseas (still gets AB gas) and I guess AB is importing so many financial services and manufactured goods that the ON financial/manufacturing heartland gets a good chunk of business. Wonderful country, what with all the working together and not hating each other.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Albert also imports more Ontarians than most other provinces. I'm sure 1/3 of Albertans must be from here, but after a few years they won't admit it.


http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/91-215-XIE/2006000/t108_en.htm

Alberta imports more Ontarians than any other province. 

I wonder who the three people are that moved from PEI to Yukon?


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Albert also imports more Ontarians than most other provinces. I'm sure 1/3 of Albertans must be from here, but after a few years they won't admit it.


I'm sure Alberta imports most of the population of Saskatchewan as well - at least if my workplace is any indication.

Q. How do you spot a new Albertan?

A. Green and White license plates!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

PenguinBoy said:


> I'm sure Alberta imports most of the population of Saskatchewan as well - at least if my workplace is any indication.


Hey, I represent that remark!


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

No, they're just Ontarians whose cars have broken down, so they buy or rent something for the last leg of the journey to Alberta...



PenguinBoy said:


> I'm sure Alberta imports most of the population of Saskatchewan as well - at least if my workplace is any indication.
> 
> Q. How do you spot a new Albertan?
> 
> A. Green and White license plates!


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## Mugatu (Mar 31, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Albert also imports more Ontarians than most other provinces. I'm sure 1/3 of Albertans must be from here, but after a few years they won't admit it.


Hmm... I was wondering who all the snappy dressers are.


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