# PayPal Reverse Payment Schemes



## screature (May 14, 2007)

I am selling my Canon 20D, lenses and battery grip through Kijiji. I received an e-mail from someone in New Jersey who is interested in purchasing it, they want to pay through PayPal. Normally I would not have an issue with this except that it is a relatively large sum of money ($1000+). 

My suspicions have been raised because this person has not even tried to haggle about the price and are ready to buy just based on stock images of the products I posted to Kijiji (I posted these because I was expecting a local sale where the purchaser would come and examine the products first hand anyway). Now I have told them the items are in Mint condition which they are, so they may be just very trusting, but I guess I am not so I have done some research and it turns out that there have been a number of cases where sellers using PayPal have been scammed using a reverse payment scheme. 

Everything goes according to how it should, the payment is received by the seller and the buyer gets their product. Then the buyer makes some fraudulent claim against the product, (it is defective or even it just isn't what they thought it would be) complains to PayPal and PayPal takes the money back from the seller and gives it to the buyer and now the buyer has both the product and their money and the seller has nothing.

Apparently, with this type of fraud it can be very hard to even get the law to do anything when we are talking cross border legalities. It seems PayPal really provides all the protection to the buyer and none to the seller.

So anybody here have a bad experience with Paypal? Would you recommend that I trust my gut and stay clear of this sale, even though I really want to sell my gear to finance an upgrade to a Nikon D300? Am I just being paranoid?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Trust your instincts every time.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Post deleted


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Cameo said:


> This was an attempt to steal my identity. If I had clicked on any of the links they would have my name and email address.
> 
> Beware.


Which you freely post on your website....which gets harvested by a bazillion search and spam bots daily.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

screature said:


> I am selling my Canon 20D, lenses and battery grip through Kijiji. I received an e-mail from someone in New Jersey who is interested in purchasing it, they want to pay through PayPal. Normally I would not have an issue with this except that it is a relatively large sum of money ($1000+).
> 
> My suspicions have been raised because this person has not even tried to haggle about the price and are ready to buy just based on stock images of the products I posted to Kijiji (I posted these because I was expecting a local sale where the purchaser would come and examine the products first hand anyway). Now I have told them the items are in Mint condition which they are, so they may be just very trusting, but I guess I am not so I have done some research and it turns out that there have been a number of cases where sellers using PayPal have been scammed using a reverse payment scheme.
> 
> ...


My wife had one incident as a purchaser through Ebay/PayPal. There was an "investigation" done by Ebay and PayPal staff before any action was taken. Ultimately she got her money refunded (aren't purchases through Ebay insured up to a certain amount?).

On the flip side, an acquaintance of her's at work got ripped off buying a computer on Ebay and never got her money back. By the time Ebay/PayPal got involved the seller (who apparently had a solid Ebay rep up to that point) had scammed several people around the same time and then closed down shop making off with the cash.

Since Kijiji is free I don't know if there is any way to determine how reputable the buyer/seller is and even then as with the Ebay example I gave a transaction can still go bad.

Buyer/seller beware always applies.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

screature,

Paranoia can, at times, be good. Caution is healthier. 

I'm thinking of putting some of my equipment up for sale, so I'm curious what other suggestions folks will post. SINC said it, go with your gut instinct.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

Cameo said:


> This was an attempt to steal my identity...


I received exactly the same message at home last Friday and immediately forwarded it to [email protected].


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Thanks guys, keep em coming, just so we can all be made aware of the risks that are out there. I always thought that it was the buyer that needed to aware (beware), but it would seem that even for a seller, especially if the item is worth very much, must be cautious as well.

I think as SINC and kps have said it is best to go with ones gut (instincts). It is way better to have lost a potential sale than all my equipment. I will be letting this potential buyer know that I am not going to be going forward with the sale.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

kps said:


> Which you freely post on your website....which gets harvested by a bazillion search and spam bots daily.


 
And what can they gain from there and how?


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Maybe I should learn to think like a criminal in order to avoid being victimized by one....................I gather they could get the info from profiles..........never thought about it. Okay - forgive me while I remove that post.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

Besides the fraudulent buyer claim "Not as advertised" or "Never received product" the other PayPal scam is that the PayPal account is either hacked, or it is funded with a stolen credit card number. In both cases, PayPal will backcharge you the amount when the real credit card owner complains.

O'course the whole purpose of PayPal is that you never get to see the credit card information so you can't run a check through the bank... so sellers are hung out to dry.

If you are selling by PayPal, ONLY ship to the confirmed PayPal address of the buyer, no other address. You have no coverage at all if you ship to a different address.

Look up the PayPal buyer protection limits for the particular transaction/buyer -- some deals you will be covered for $200, some for $1000, many for $0.

Insist on shipping by a brand name courier, with insurance and WITH signature on delivery. If you don't have a signed courier waybill copy, PayPal will side with the buyer. This also goes for pickup orders. Never accept PayPal for an order delivered or picked up in person.

Lastly: Craigslist and Kijiji and Used*. com are for local, face to face transactions. There is only one reason for someone from 1000's of miles away trolling your local classified site, and that is to scam you.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Thanks for all that CanadaRAM all very useful info and you proved my instincts to be correct. Many thanks.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Cameo said:


> And what can they gain from there and how?


All I was saying is that your website has your full name and email address. Exactly the information you feared would be transmitted if you clicked any of the links in the phishing spam you received.

I know this because right after I read your post, I noticed the links in your sig and out of curiosity had a look to see if you show any contact info which could be harvested by spammers. It did.

Spammers use automated robots (or bots) that will search millions of HTML pages for email addresses based on a recognizable search pattern (as in [email protected]). There are many techniques used to hide such information from these bots. In the past, many used scripts, graphics, forms, etc. to hide email info from the bots but not from human visitors. Spammers also search boards such as this for emails and possibly other things.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

SINC said:


> Trust your instincts every time.


After reading the answers following SINC's post, this may sound trite, but if the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, as mine did reading the OP, then back away.

You may have to haggle, and get less, but if you see your buyer, and get cash/certified cheque, you will never loose sleep.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

iJohnHenry said:


> After reading the answers following SINC's post, this may sound trite, but if the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, as mine did reading the OP, then back away.
> 
> You may have to haggle, and get less, but if you see your buyer, and get cash/certified cheque, you will never loose sleep.


Totally. I'm glad I had enough scepticism so as to not be so over enthusiastic at a quick sale as to be stupid about it, step back do some research of my own and then come here as further research. The "buyer" has been contacted and politely told to go fly a kite.


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