# Toyota's Perfect Storm



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Toyota's perfect storm | Wheels.ca.

I've been following the fiasco involving Toyota and 'stuck accelerator pedals' that have plagued a good portion of Toyota's line up; as of yet, the company has not come up with a permanent solution to the problem. What are your thoughts?

• Do you, or would you, potentially reconsider purchasing a Toyota now or in the future because of this current setback?
• Do you own a Toyota affected by this massive recall? If so, your thoughts? Has it been repaired yet?

Personally, this setback wouldn't have me avoiding a Toyota purchase in the future; if Toyota had a reputation of problems in their line up in the past, then perhaps, but the company actually has an exceptional record for quality.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

My first thought is that not all changes are really improvements. Toyota had perfectly functional throttle assemblies.

Just a guess as Toyota has not really pinned the issue but I wonder if this resulted from attempting to further computerize the cruise control. Basing this entirely on the observation that the Yaris/Echo series is not mentioned and those vehicles do not usually have cruise control.

Still Toyota is putting a lot of pressure on itself to actually solve the problem in a timely manner. 

In Canada any car can have the accelerator stick. Just takes a bit of ice in the wrong place. One thing I did when this issue came to light was to assure myself that I could quickly switch the ignition to accessory and then shift into neutral. Discovered I could steer the car and that there was sufficient brake boost to stop the car even with the engine shut down. I then made sure my better half was also aware of this emergency technique. Hopefully other drivers will do the same whether or not they are driving one of the problem cars.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

We bought a 2009 RAV4 in late Sept. but have not experienced any problems yet. We just passed the 1000km mark, so it is still somewhat new. We shall see.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Dr.G. said:


> We bought a 2009 RAV4 in late Sept. but have not experienced any problems yet. We just passed the 1000km mark, so it is still somewhat new. We shall see.


You really don't drive much, do you?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Lars said:


> You really don't drive much, do you?


Our other car, a 5 1/2 year old Toyota Echo, just passed 31,000km. I work from home, so that saves a lot of driving.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dr.G. said:


> Our other car, a 5 1/2 year old Toyota Echo, just passed 31,000km. I work from home, so that saves a lot of driving.


I too work from home and our 2001 Suzuki Grand Vitara Limited bought new now has only 78,000 km on it as it nears nine years old in July. Since I have only worked from home for three year now, it will average much fewer kms per year from this point on. It still looks and runs like new.

I have also towed it over 30,000 km not showing on the odometer.

I have spent nothing on this vehicle other than a set of tires and oil/filter changes. No tune ups, original battery and brakes, etc.

Oddly enough, it was the subject of a recall to replace the gas feed cable to prevent it sticking, just like the current Toyotas at about two years of age.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

I agree, Lars. 

If Toyota tried to hide this issue, and did _not_ announce their intention to take this issue seriously, _then_ I would be worried about Toyota products.

This is no "Ford SUV with exploding Firestone Tires" scenario.

A Toyota hybrid is definitely on the horizon for me.

Aside:
(True story)
I was once driving an 8-cylinder wheelchair van loaded with physically and mentally challenged adults, at bumper-to-bumper rush hour, on a 5-lane section of the Queensway, when the throttle went wide open and stuck there.

To make a fast story even faster;
Happy and safe ending to the adventure. 
My passengers were by far the calmest people in the van during the entire ... um ... flight.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

Lars said:


> Toyota's perfect storm | Wheels.ca.
> 
> I've been following the fiasco involving Toyota and 'stuck accelerator pedals' that have plagued a good portion of Toyota's line up; as of yet, the company has not come up with a permanent solution to the problem. What are your thoughts?
> 
> ...


i own a Tacoma, which isn't on the list, but I did receive a letter from Toyota warning about the pedal affecting floor mats - which I had found out on my own (nothing exciting, but I did notice it didn't feel right when I first drove it).

This accelerator issue wouldn't stop me from buying one b/c i'm sure they'll figure it out.

In the end, Toyotas just run. plain and simple. I know the toyota haters will love to hear this news, but i can't remember another time when there's been an issue like this toyota. usually, their vehicles are like Forrest Gump - they just keep runn-ING and runn-ING 

BUT, i wouldn't like to be a toyota stock holder.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

keebler27 said:


> BUT, i wouldn't like to be a toyota stock holder.


I don't play the big casino but if I did I would be buying Toyota stock right now, especially if they have not tracked down the solution in the next two or three days.


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## Labi (Jan 28, 2010)

What a disaster Toyota has caused. But recalls is the only safe way to fix the problems that possibly could occur


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I still wouldn't mind getting a Toyota Tacoma if I ever needed a rock solid pickup truck.

My 07 Mazda 5 just went in for its 104,000km service... I got the car at 71,000km last April. lol. I drive more in 9 months than Dr. G. does in 5 1/2 years.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> We bought a 2009 RAV4 in late Sept. but have not experienced any problems yet. We just passed the 1000km mark, so it is still somewhat new. We shall see.





Dr.G said:


> Our other car, a 5 1/2 year old Toyota Echo, just passed 31,000km. I work from home, so that saves a lot of driving.


Please stay off the roads, at this rate, you will have them all worn out before anyone else has a chance to use them.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

dona83 said:


> I still wouldn't mind getting a Toyota Tacoma if I ever needed a rock solid pickup truck.
> 
> My 07 Mazda 5 just went in for its 104,000km service... I got the car at 71,000km last April. lol. I drive more in 9 months than Dr. G. does in 5 1/2 years.


Yes, but we have to drive on the streets of St. John's, which have some of the biggest potholes in Canada. A friend lost his Mazda Tribute in one of the potholes ........... which looked more like a sinkhole or swimming pool in the middle of the road.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL said:


> Please stay off the roads, at this rate, you will have them all worn out before anyone else has a chance to use them.


I usually do, BigDL. Some days, the only movement my Echo might do in a day is to move it forward in the driveway when I have cleared out a section of the driveway of snow, and then move it back to its original spot. Sometimes the snow just goes over the entire car, however.

Still, sometimes, not even a Jeep can get over the banks of snow at the end of the driveway (that is my neighbor's Jeep, not me).


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> Yes, but we have to drive on the streets of St. John's, which have some of the biggest potholes in Canada. A friend lost his Mazda Tribute in one of the potholes ........... which looked more like a sinkhole or swimming pool in the middle of the road.


not to derail this thread but Harper's troops may disappear into one of those. To get back on track a Toyota may have a sticking accelerator and accelerate into one of the gapping chasms ending up in another dimension  there the world's righted again.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL said:


> not to derail this thread but Harper's troops may disappear into one of those. To get back on track a Toyota may have a sticking accelerator and accelerate into one of the gapping chasms ending up in another dimension  there the world's righted again.


Good one, BigDL. All we have are the Royal Newfoundland Mounted Constabulary ............ all three of them, which are not much against Harper's tanks ............. which were made by Toyota. We shall see.

The few ....... the proud ............ the dedicated.

Still, I have experienced no problems with the RAV4 and the Toyota Echo is still going quite well.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

I have a 2004 Highlander that has just passed 100,000 km. I don't usually keep vehicles much past 90,000 as I find the little maintenance issues start to add up. Although I don't average a lot of miles in a year (my business is based in my home), when I do go on the road it is generally for a 3,000 - 4,000 km trip and I don't need to have blinking lights coming on in the middle of the Rogers Pass.

That said - this Highlander still feels like a new car to me. All I've done thus far (knock on wood) is regular maintenance things - tires, regular oil changes and brakes. The vehicle I owned before this one that I kept as long was falling apart at 100,000 km - springs gone, pneumatics failing, just not 'built to last'.

Originally I had leased this vehicle, and last year when the four year lease was up the Toyota dealership tried to convince me to 'upgrade' to a new vehicle. I did not like the new Highlanders at all (felt like they had a lower quality - inside the 'fit and finish' wasn't as pristine as the 2004), so stuck with this one. I wonder if the difference is that my Highlander was built in Japan (I checked when I bought it), but the newer ones are now built in North America. If I do decide to get a new vehicle, it will probably be a Lexus. You'll note there are no recalls on Lexus, because they're still built in Japan.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

But this is just a Compass, it's not a real Jeep... it's a Dodge Caliber with slightly higher ground clearance and slightly bigger tires. lol.

I do envy you. I didn't used to drive so much, a tank of gas would last me two to three weeks.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

dona83 said:


> But this is just a Compass, it's not a real Jeep... it's a Dodge Caliber with slightly higher ground clearance and slightly bigger tires. lol.
> 
> I do envy you. I didn't used to drive so much, a tank of gas would last me two to three weeks.


The second pic was of the Jeep Cherokee, which is stuck on a mound of snow ............ my next door neighbor had his Jeep Compass in a garage, which is why it looks so free of snow.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

dona83 said:


> I didn't used to drive so much, a tank of gas would last me two to three weeks.


Ha, for me, a tank of gas lasts 5 days...


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

Only cars manufactured in N. America using a particular part from a Canadian supplier are affected, and then only when they have high mileage. 

My Yaris isn't affected, since it was manufactured entirely in Japan. When the Yaris gets old, I would buy another Toyota or Lexus in a heartbeat - this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot which Toyota is handling in a very responsible and up-front way.


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## Chris (Feb 8, 2001)

Looks like the problem is world-wide:

Toyota has few details on gas pedal solution as recall expands | Wheels.ca

Given that the part is designed by Toyota, it's not surprising that problems with it will be replicated wherever it's used.


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## rondini (Dec 6, 2001)

Had my 07 Camry SE checked out today. Part is from the supplier in question , but is not part of the specific production run that is at issue. Would buy another Toyota in heartbeat. Best car i have ever owned, and i have been around for a while.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Toyota Motor began facing complaints of runaway cars years ago, but the company did not install "brake override" systems in those vehicles, even as several other automakers deployed the technology to address such malfunctions." Oops ..........

washingtonpost.com


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Toyota sends gas pedal parts to dealers | Wheels.ca.

Speaking of timing...



> "DETROIT—Toyota said it began shipping gas pedal parts to its dealers Friday for use in fixing the millions of cars and trucks recalled because of accelerators that could become stuck."


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

So as I understand it the problem is with an electronic gas pedal assembly. Since this has to be more expensive than previous gas pedals, I am assuming Toyota changed from a perfectly functional model in order to "improve" gas mileage by perhaps an amount of 1 or 2%. 

Should we chalk up those fatalities to the Al Gore inspired Global Warming hysteria? beejacon 

Seriously change is not always an improvement especially if it costs lives.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Much of the emergency situation would be resolved if North Americans simply drove manual transmission vehicles. The engine revs out of control, push in the clutch peddle the drive train is not delivering power to the drive wheels.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL said:


> Much of the emergency situation would be resolved if North Americans simply drove manual transmission vehicles. The engine revs out of control, push in the clutch peddle the drive train is not delivering power to the drive wheels.


You sound like my wife, BigDL. I can only drive an automatic. So, she got to choose the car, she got to choose the color and I got to choose how I was going to pay for it (e.g., over 3 years at 0% or 4 years at 2.9% -- I chose three years to pay for our 2009 RAV4, which is one of the recalled cars). We shall see.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

BigDL said:


> Much of the emergency situation would be resolved if North Americans simply drove manual transmission vehicles. The engine revs out of control, push in the clutch peddle the drive train is not delivering power to the drive wheels.


Automatic vehicles have 'N' (neutral) which effectively does the same thing.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

MLeh said:


> Automatic vehicles have 'N' (neutral) which effectively does the same thing.


Thank you. (you beat me to it...)


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

There's nothing on my Toyota that prevents me from shifting into Neutral at any time.

However, if the engine is going full out at the time, the revs can get up there and be pretty scary! (Remove the load from the engine and you could potentially blow up the engine. But a blown up engine is probably better than some of the alternative scenarios.)

I would never recommend anyone switch off the ignition while moving because you lose power steering and power braking when the engine is off. (Not fun).


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

MLeh said:


> There's nothing on my Toyota that prevents me from shifting into Neutral at any time....I would never recommend anyone switch off the ignition while moving because you lose power steering and power braking when the engine is off. (Not fun).


Should be safe to shut off the ignition (to Accessory). There will be enough reserve in the power brakes to bring you to a stop. You will still be able to steer but it will get more difficult as speed is reduced. 

Everyone should go through the routine in an empty parking lot at least twice. That way you will probably remember it if needed.

Since my car lacks sufficient power to hurt itself I don't expect a throttle stuck wide open would induce paralyzing panic anyways but still better to have thought it through and tested ahead of time.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

My experience as been as soon as that serpentine belt stops going around, you lose any semblance of control. People now-a-days just aren't used to what we used to call 'arm-strong' steering, and without the pump going there isn't much 'residual' in the brake lines.

But I agree that people should be testing various things out on their vehicle in an empty parking lot. There's other emergency scenarios as well though, aside from the 'stuck accelerator scenario'. This particular one has just hit the news, so people are now aware, but how many people would know exactly what to do in many unexpected emergency situations?

My guess would be that there have been a lot more accident due to human error than mechanical failure: ie 'mistaking the accelerator for the brake' accidents. For some reason these seem to occur mostly when people are parking. For this reason I never walk between a car that is running with a driver in the seat, and a building, until I'm sure they're going to go off in the proper direction. Also never stand between a stalled car and another car pulled up behind. Work off to the side only.

Unfortunately things happen that we're not prepared for, so the best thing is to know your vehicle and try to remain calm.


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

MLeh said:


> My experience as been as soon as that serpentine belt stops going around, you lose any semblance of control......


Maybe, but many newer cars, including my Toyota, have electric power steering.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

Fair enough - last time I lost a serpentine was on a '96 Safari.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MLeh said:


> However, if the engine is going full out at the time, the revs can get up there and be pretty scary! (Remove the load from the engine and you could potentially blow up the engine. But a blown up engine is probably better than some of the alternative scenarios.)


I would think the engine would just bounce off the rev limiter, rather than blow up...


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MLeh said:


> If I do decide to get a new vehicle, it will probably be a Lexus. You'll note there are no recalls on Lexus, because they're still built in Japan.


Lexus is included in the recall:
BREAKING: Toyota Recall Affects 3.8M Prius, Lexus Cars - The Car Connection

An off duty California Highway Patrolman and his family were killed in a runaway Lexus last Summer, at the beginning of this debacle.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MLeh said:


> Originally I had leased this vehicle, and last year when the four year lease was up the Toyota dealership tried to convince me to 'upgrade' to a new vehicle. I did not like the new Highlanders at all (felt like they had a lower quality - inside the 'fit and finish' wasn't as pristine as the 2004), so stuck with this one. I wonder if the difference is that my Highlander was built in Japan (I checked when I bought it), but the newer ones are now built in North America.


I don't think the country of origin has that much to do with it. Toyota has been manufacturing in North America for at least 20 years - including some very high quality vehicles.

A more likely explanation is that they succumbed to the same cost and time to market pressures as everyone else, and the rising Yen exacerbated the problem. Good analysis here:
Hammer Time: The Toyota Reality | The Truth About Cars

Toyota's whole "lean" system is based on eliminating waste, overbuilding something can be considered a form of waste. Analysis here:
Too Good To Be True: How Toyota’s Success Caused Killer Decontenting | The Truth About Cars


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Gerbill said:


> Only cars manufactured in N. America using a particular part from a Canadian supplier are affected, and then only when they have high mileage.


You can see both the Nippon Denso and CTS pedal assemblies torn apart here:
Exclusive: TTAC Takes Apart Both Toyota Gas Pedal Assemblies – Denso Unit Rumored To Be Recalled Too | The Truth About Cars

The latest rumour is that both the Japanese and Canadian made units will be recalled.



Gerbill said:


> this whole thing is a tempest in a teapot which Toyota is handling in a very responsible and up-front way.


I think it's a bit early to draw that conclusion - we don't have the whole story yet, and there is at least some evidence that this problem has existed since circa 2004 (Toyota denies unintended acceleration issues on Tacoma - MotorAuthority).

There's something fishy about the way that this was blamed on driver error, then floor mats, then North American vehicles, then expanded to include vehicles in other markets.

Given the fact that there is no time frame for Toyota to resume production, I doubt they know the root cause of the problem. It wouldn't surprise me if there are multiple, intermittant, failure modes.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the failure modes is a software bug in the ECU. It's surprising that the ECU doesn't make the engine return to idle when the brake is pressed, like many other makes do.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

That may be, but it is hard to find fault with Toyota's handling of the issue. Shutting down production is a major step.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

SINC said:


> That may be, but it is hard to find fault with Toyota's handling of the issue. Shutting down production is a major step.


I don't think they had any choice in the matter:
Toyota Sales Halt Was Federally Mandated | The Truth About Cars


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ah, the plot thickens.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

All I got from my Toyota dealership was the info that the peddals need to be worn with driving and that I am only putting on a few hundred kilometers a month since Sept., so that my car was not even broken in yet let alone containing warn parts.


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

MLeh said:


> ............ If I do decide to get a new vehicle, it will probably be a Lexus. You'll note there are no recalls on Lexus, because they're still built in Japan.


 Nice to be rich, but the much cheaper Yaris is also built entirely in Japan...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- "Toyota said Monday it has developed a fix for gas pedals in millions of recalled vehicles and is already shipping the new parts to dealers.

The fix involves reinforcing the pedal assembly in a way that eliminates the excess friction that has caused the pedals to stick, the company said in a press release. Toyota recalled 2.3 million vehicles in the United States for this problem."

Toyota announces gas pedal fix - Feb. 1, 2010

TOYOTA CANADA : News & Events > News

Let's hope so. We shall see.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MLeh said:


> If I do decide to get a new vehicle, it will probably be a Lexus. You'll note there are no recalls on Lexus, because they're still built in Japan.


You might want to rethink that strategy MLeh. A LA Times investigation has shown there have been 19 deaths in the US due to the problem and some of them in Lexus vehicles that were built in Japan. Just saw this on CNN.



> Toyota first installed electronic throttles in 2002 model year Lexus ES and Camry sedans. Total complaints of sudden acceleration for the Lexus and Camry in the 2002-04 model years averaged 132 a year. That's up from an average of 26 annually for the 1999-2001 models, the Times review found.


Data point to Toyota's throttles, not floor mats - Los Angeles Times


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Had to happen sooner or later:
Canadian Class Action Names Toyota and CTS


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- "Toyota said Monday it has developed a fix for gas pedals in millions of recalled vehicles and is already shipping the new parts to dealers.
> 
> The fix involves reinforcing the pedal assembly in a way that eliminates the excess friction that has caused the pedals to stick, the company said in a press release. Toyota recalled 2.3 million vehicles in the United States for this problem."
> 
> ...


You can see a description of the proposed fix here: Toyota Gas Pedal Fix Simulated: Friction Reduced, But By Too Much? | The Truth About Cars

I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to it than this, the fact that this has been going on for so long and Toyota hasn't been able to find the root cause of the problem suggests multiple intermittent failure modes..


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

I wonder how much this is going to cost Toyota in the end. To fix over 5 million vehicles, man.... I can't see that being under a billion (assuming every vehicle is fixed). Then the class action lawsuits that will ensue (at least the legal fees involved), loss on sales from halted production, loss of customers (I can't imagine too many) etc.. It has the potential to be one of the costliest recalls in history.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MACinist said:


> I wonder how much this is going to cost Toyota in the end.


The biggest cost is likely to be to their reputation. For a long time, Toyota has been able to charge a premium for their products due to a solid reputation built on the excellence of their past work.

I suspect many Toyota customers wouldn't even consider competing products as they trusted Toyota to deliver a safe, reliable car. Now that this trust has been broken, at least some of those customers will likely look elsewhere. My guess is the biggest beneficiaries of this debacle will be Honda, Ford, and Hyundai - possibly in that order.

Toyota seems to have been cost reducing their products lately, while still charging a bit of a premium for their brand. In the short run, this is a great way to boost profits - although it often ends badly, think of GM in the '70s...


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

PenguinBoy said:


> Had to happen sooner or later:
> Canadian Class Action Names Toyota and CTS


Yep, the greedy side of some people begins to shine...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Lars said:


> Yep, the greedy side of some people begins to shine...


Yes, and Toyota is striking back ................ we are being told that we can bring in our cars for the repairs ............ and then we have to pay for the repairs PLUS a small "fee" to help Toyota over these "hard times" ............... and then sign a form stating that we will not sue Toyota, nor buy a car from another car maker for the next 10 years. Sadly, some people are bringing their cars into local dealerships for this repair, and then refusing this deal ............... and the dealership is confiscating their car and selling them off at auction!!!! 

Toyota's stock is soaring ................... :greedy::greedy:


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

Before people think Dr. G is serious.

He's not.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Toyota's quality started going downhill when they were forced to start moving production to Canada and the US. I wonder why?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MLeh said:


> Before people think Dr. G is serious.
> 
> He's not.


:clap::lmao:

No one would think that I was serious, MLeh ................ at least I would not think so ................. we shall see.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Adrian. said:


> Toyota's quality started going downhill when they were forced to start moving production to Canada and the US. I wonder why?


Oh, surely you are not suggesting it might have something to do with North American union labour, are you?


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Adrian. said:


> Toyota's quality started going downhill when they were forced to start moving production to Canada and the US.


Toyota was building in North America long before their quality slipped,.


Adrian. said:


> I wonder why?


Cost and time to market pressures, a rising yen, and the desire for rapid growth.

In their quest to become the new GM, they became the new GM...


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

To add to Toyotas woes now there are problems with the brakes on the Prius. 

In a way this should have been anticipated. Disc brakes require power assist. Traditionally this has been done with a vacuum booster that is powered by vacuum generated by the engine. In the case of the Prius the the engine is frequently off altogether so Toyota had to come up with power brakes that use the electrical system to provide the boost. Only way to properly test such a beast for reliability in adverse conditions, is to actually install it and see what fails.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

PenguinBoy said:


> In their quest to become the new GM, they became the new GM...


In this particual brake / electrical issue, yes. The sad thing is, today, Toyota will get way less leeway in bad decisions then GM and Chrysler ever did. Even though they have decades under their belt of building quality, reliable and efficient products, they don't have decades to mess it up like GM/Chrysler and even Ford did. GM/Ford/Chrysler survived from vans/trucks/suv's during reasonable gas price days and becauase of NA patriotism to their own. Toyota has neither in their favor today.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

MACinist said:


> In this particual brake / electrical issue, yes. The sad thing is, today, Toyota will get way less leeway in bad decisions then GM and Chrysler ever did. Even though they have decades under their belt of building quality, reliable and efficient products, they don't have decades to mess it up like GM/Chrysler and even Ford did. GM/Ford/Chrysler survived from vans/trucks/suv's during reasonable gas price days and becauase of NA patriotism to their own. Toyota has neither in their favor today.


I think it's early days yet. People in general have short attention spans, and what is making news today may very well be forgotten in a short period of time, depending what new and shiny object there is to attract their attention. ADHD society.

My last Chevrolet (Trailblazer), which I kept for less than three years had 13 recalls on it - one of which occurred before it even left the factory. My current 6 year old Toyota (Highlander) has had two recalls, both minor. I figure long term owners like myself, and rational people who can actually look at long term statistics, aren't going to let one recall sour them on the brand that quickly.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

I think people can over-react, blow it out of proportion and have selective memory in some cases.

Confusion at Toyota dealerships after brake recall - Feb. 3, 2010


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

One or two minor recalls on any car from any car company is hardly worth fretting over or justification to refuse to buy 'x' vehicle from 'x' car manufacturer (especially car companies with a relatively solid reputation for reliability such as Toyota). My new, 2010 Mazda3 had a DRL recall applied to it less than 3 months into ownership. Cost me $0 to have it repaired and it's honestly no big deal.

*"I think people can over-react, blow it out of proportion and have selective memory in some cases."*

Bang on.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MACinist said:


> In this particual brake / electrical issue, yes. The sad thing is, today, Toyota will get way less leeway in bad decisions then GM and Chrysler ever did. Even though they have decades under their belt of building quality, reliable and efficient products, they don't have decades to mess it up like GM/Chrysler and even Ford did. GM/Ford/Chrysler survived from vans/trucks/suv's during reasonable gas price days and becauase of NA patriotism to their own. Toyota has neither in their favor today.


Toyota does have a large reservoir of good will built up and very loyal owners, so if they treat this as a wake up call and pull up their socks they might be able to live this down. I do agree that Toyota won't have as long to turn things around, news travels fast in the internet age. The fact that these are widespread serious problems that make it impossible to safely operate the vehicle, and Toyota's (former?) image as the "Mary Poppins" of car makers make the news a lot more damaging.

As far as "NA patriotism to their own" goes, I think that cuts both ways - I'm sure that about 1/2 of the North American market wouldn't consider a North American vehicle.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

PenguinBoy said:


> As far as "NA patriotism to their own" goes, I think that cuts both ways - I'm sure that about 1/2 of the North American market wouldn't consider a North American vehicle.


I was more referring to the 70's, 80's and early 90's. Patriotism was much higher back then today, agreed. And I believe it was one of the cushions for the big 3.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*More trouble for Toyota: Prius*





> The U.S. Transportation Department has launched an investigation into brake problems in the 2010 Toyota Prius.
> 
> The probe will look into reports of temporary loss of braking ability on uneven road surfaces.
> 
> ...


(CBC)


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Lots of conflicting information. One announcement from Toyota on the Prius brake issue. Apparently the Prius uses conventional brakes when the engine is running and electric brakes when the engine is shut down. Problem seems to be a slight lag switching between the systems when the engine starts up or shuts down. Supposedly keeping the foot on the brake pedal does engage whichever system is supposed to be kicking in, after a very slight delay. Since the engine has to be starting or shutting down at the same time the brake is applied many drivers might never notice an issue. 

As always it is a very good idea not to wait till the last instant to apply the brakes, in that case that half a second delay could prove to be deadly.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Priuses use regenerative braking up to a certain force and then gets assisted with mechanical brakes after that. Toyota may have tried to give the regenerative braking more priority to maximize energy regeneration even if emergency stops were required, meaning that mechanical brakes were not applied quickly enough in this situation. That's my take. Their updated firmware so to speak allowed the mechanical brakes to be applied right away when needed.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

*Toyota recall costs: $2 billion*

Toyota posts profit, but recall issues loom - Feb. 4, 2010


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> Problem seems to be a slight lag switching between the systems when the engine starts up or shuts down.





dona83 said:


> Priuses use regenerative braking up to a certain force and then gets assisted with mechanical brakes after that. Toyota may have tried to give the regenerative braking more priority to maximize energy regeneration even if emergency stops were required, meaning that mechanical brakes were not applied quickly enough in this situation. That's my take.


If the above are true, this is scary.

I would think the regenerative brake should only be used to slow the vehicle gradually, in a panic stop situation the service brake should *always* be fully engaged immediately, and let the ABS/EBD intervene as necessary to keep the car shiny side up and between the lines.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

*Toyota to announce Prius recall*

Toyota to announce Prius recall soon - Feb. 8, 2010

Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say - CNN.com


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## rondini (Dec 6, 2001)

anyone got a list of the recalls on GM poopmobiles for the last 3 or 4 years

Funny all the bad press about Toyota, now that US Gov. has a big slice of the GM pie


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

rondini said:


> anyone got a list of the recalls on GM poopmobiles for the last 3 or 4 years


Here ya go: Road Safety Recalls Database



rondini said:


> Funny all the bad press about Toyota, now that US Gov. has a big slice of the GM pie


The recalls and bad press are happening worldwide, not just in the US, and with good reason - these are serious safety defects affecting a large number of vehicles, and a number of people have died as a result.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

First it was unintended acceleration, then a lack of intended breaking, now looks like unintended steering is next:

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100209/RETAIL05/100209863/1290#ixzz0f3JW07Rc

Can't these guys have a "normal" recall, like a faulty power window switch for example?


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

rondini said:


> anyone got a list of the recalls on GM poopmobiles for the last 3 or 4 years
> 
> Funny all the bad press about Toyota, now that US Gov. has a big slice of the GM pie


Toyota strove to replace GM in the world of the Automotive Industry, apparently they've succeeded


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

U.S. subpoenas Prius acceleration documents from Toyota | Wheels.ca.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I used to be a big Toyota fan...


That makes sense, they ~used~ to make some of the best cars on the road.

Now that the '90s are over, this is starting to remind me of a scene from "Fight Club": Documents: Toyota boasted saving $100M on recall - Yahoo! News



> Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
> Business woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
> Narrator: You wouldn't believe.
> Business woman on plane: Which car company do you work for?
> Narrator: A major one.


source: Fight Club (1999) - Memorable quotes


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

*Cases being reopened....*



> LINO LAKES, MINN.-Ever since his 1996 Toyota Camry shot up an interstate ramp, plowing into the back of an Oldsmobile in a horrific crash that killed three people, Koua Fong Lee insisted he had done everything he could to stop the car.
> 
> A jury didn’t believe him, and a judge sentenced him to eight years in prison. But now, new revelations of safety problems with Toyotas have Lee pressing to get his case reopened and his freedom restored


Jailed man seeks new trial using ?Toyota? defence | Wheels.ca


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

This is tragic, and a lot of people were hurt and Toyota should be blamed, but many of these accidents could have been prevented with proper driver training.

If my vehicle started accelerating beyond my control, my first instinct would be to put it in neutral (it's easy, you don't even need to push the button on the stick to shift from D to N), and pull the emergency brake. Did this not occur to people?


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

hayesk said:


> ...If my vehicle started accelerating beyond my control, my first instinct would be to put it in neutral (it's easy, you don't even need to push the button on the stick to shift from D to N), and pull the emergency brake. Did this not occur to people?


Interestingly this seems to happen with some of the overpowered models, which obviously tend to leap out from under you. 

As I have a mechanical gas pedal I know it is not going to go to the floor on its own. Despite what some people claim it is safe to shut off the ignition even in Drive. It will go to the accessory position, the steering will not lock and there will be sufficient vacuum reserve in the power brakes to stop the vehicle. You will be using "Armstrong" steering but that would also happen if the serpentine belt broke. At least this way you are expecting it.

Since little things like ice or snow can also lock up an accelerator, everyone should practice the routine a couple of times a year. Do it in a safe place. That way if something does happen you will know what to do. FWIW forty years ago this was part of Drivers Ed and IMO it should still be.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

Adrian. said:


> Jailed man seeks new trial using ?Toyota? defence | Wheels.ca


I'm not sure how valid this defense is in this case.

The car in the article is a 1996, which would have been before the days of drive by wire Camrys. It's hard to imagine that this tragic accident is somehow related to the accidents caused by the dangerous design defects in newer models.

It could be driver error as the trial judge ruled, or it could be mechanical failure on a poorly maintained old car.

In either case, it would be pretty hard to blame Toyota - although I expect that we will see many more similar cases...


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> As I have a mechanical gas pedal I know it is not going to go to the floor on its own. Despite what some people claim it is safe to shut off the ignition even in Drive. It will go to the accessory position, the steering will not lock and there will be sufficient vacuum reserve in the power brakes to stop the vehicle. You will be using "Armstrong" steering but that would also happen if the serpentine belt broke. At least this way you are expecting it.
> 
> Since little things like ice or snow can also lock up an accelerator, everyone should practice the routine a couple of times a year. Do it in a safe place. That way if something does happen you will know what to do. FWIW forty years ago this was part of Drivers Ed and IMO it should still be.


Agreed 100%

It doesn't excuse Toyota for producing vehicles with a dangerous design defect, but people driving should be prepared for sudden mechanical failures. Unfortunately in many cases it seems they are not - I wonder if the trend towards cars that are easier, but less involving to drive has something to do with this?


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

PenguinBoy said:


> Agreed 100%
> 
> It doesn't excuse Toyota for producing vehicles with a dangerous design defect, but people driving should be prepared for sudden mechanical failures. Unfortunately in many cases it seems they are not - I wonder if the trend towards cars that are easier, but less involving to drive has something to do with this?


Agreed. As technologies in cars becomes ridiculously advanced people are becoming disconnected from proper understanding of their vehicles. I felt like an old man showing my nephew (22) how to change the oil in his car. I learned how to do that when I was 14.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> Agreed. As technologies in cars becomes ridiculously advanced people are becoming disconnected from proper understanding of their vehicles. I felt like an old man showing my nephew (22) how to change the oil in his car. I learned how to do that when I was 14.


My car has a "traction control" feature that's the default setting. The other day, I was driving my son to school and got hung up on a small icy hill, because I forgot to turn off traction control. Once I shut it off and regained control of the tires, I sailed up. Traction control is a huge disconnect of car and driver as well. It serves no purpose to me.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Macfury said:


> My car has a "traction control" feature that's the default setting. The other day, I was driving my son to school and got hung up on a small icy hill, because I forgot to turn off traction control. Once I shut it off and regained control of the tires, I sailed up. Traction control is a huge disconnect of car and driver as well. It serves no purpose to me.


Talk about possible interaction nightmares: Traction Control, Cruise Control, Electronic Gas pedal, multiple brake systems. All these have to work in temperature ranges of -50°C to more than 40°C. Humidity can range from next to nil to almost 100%. Add in potholes the size of a Smart Car. It seems to me it is a minor miracle that modern vehicles don't have a lot more issues.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Uh-oh. Anybody own a Pontiac Vibe?*



*Pontiac Vibe added to Toyota lawsuit
*


> A Canadian class action lawsuit filed against Toyota and New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. has expanded to include the GM-branded Pontiac Vibe.





> "Although branded differently, the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix are veritable twins. The Pontiac Vibe is manufactured at the Toyota plant in Fremont, California," according to a statement filed Tuesday in British Columbia Supreme Court.


(CBC)


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

The recently recalled Chevy Cobalt / Pontiac G5 apparently use the same electric power steering steering system used by the Corolla, which is being considered for a recall over similar problems.

In both cases the power steering system was supplied by "JTEKT", which is a Toyota spin off.

These guys have their fingers in a lot of pies, I wonder if we'll be seeing more recalls of other makes soon?

JTEKT Flies Under Radar as Leading Supplier of Electric Steering


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Interesting



> By TOM KRISHER and KEN THOMAS, Associated Press Writers Tom Krisher And Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writers – 51 mins ago
> DETROIT – At least 15 Toyota drivers have complained to U.S. safety officials that their cars sped up by themselves even after being fixed under recalls for sticky gas pedals or floor mat problems, according to an Associated Press analysis.
> 
> 
> ...


Pulled from yahoo news so any bodies guess as to how long you can find the entire article here:
Drivers complain that Toyota's fixes didn't work - Yahoo! News

My gut feeling from day one is that this was related to the cruise control. Nothing else would explain the gas pedal throttling up on its own. I suspect that the current recall was a delaying tactic to give Toyota time to track and solve the real issue.

At this point if I did have cruise control I would insist that the dealer totally disable it.


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

eMacMan said:


> My gut feeling from day one is that this was related to the cruise control. Nothing else would explain the gas pedal throttling up on its own. I suspect that the current recall was a delaying tactic to give Toyota time to track and solve the real issue.
> 
> At this point if I did have cruise control I would insist that the dealer totally disable it.


I doubt disabling the cruise control would have any affect. With drive by wire, there is no direct, mechanical connection between the driver's right foot and the throttle plates - the computer is always calling the shots.

Your gut feel that the problems are caused not just by dislodged floor mats and sticky gas pedals, but also by some sort poorly understood "ghost in the machine" is shared by many. The fact that Toyota have been less than forthright with their flight recorder data suggests that there may be something to this.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/what’s-wrong-with-toyota’s-black-boxes/


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MazterCBlazter said:


> So why not just a throttle cable to the fuel injection system instead of this finicky and tricky electrogizmo?


Cheaper and easier to implement cruise control and traction control, ability to program in different throttle response for different models of car, no doubt fuel economy and emissions advantages in there somewhere too.

I doubt throttle cables will be back any time soon.

If this ~is~ a software problem, it points out that some sorts of software development need to be done with the same rigour as traditional Engineering disciplines. I heard a quote once along the lines of "If Civil Engineering was done the same way as software development, we would have creative artists designing bridges, and labourers working to stop them from collapsing while traffic was running over them" - can't remember where this line came from, but there's some truth to it...


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> My car has a "traction control" feature that's the default setting. The other day, I was driving my son to school and got hung up on a small icy hill, because I forgot to turn off traction control. Once I shut it off and regained control of the tires, I sailed up. Traction control is a huge disconnect of car and driver as well. It serves no purpose to me.


Traction Control is actually a great feature, but works miserably if the driver fights against it. For example, my Mazda3 also has Traction Control enabled by default, and on rainy/snowy days where there is a notable build of loose water on the roads, I can't aggressively accelerate from a dead stop as it will create "wheel hop" or tire spinning because my harsh attempt at a hard acceleration is contradicting the traction control system which is attempting to prevent the car from getting hung up on a slippery surface. If I accelerate more slowly - more normally - the car takes off from a dead start like a beauty, regardless of water, snow and ice underneath the wheels.

The purpose of Traction Control is prevent any individual wheel from excessive power, therefore stabilizing and equalizing the available power to the two wheels which drive the vehicle (or four wheels if you have an AWD). Specifically handy if your car is stuck with one wheel spinning itself into a rut while the other isn't doing anything of worth - TC corrects that exact issue.

Likewise, I've found TC handy in auto-correcting sudden veers in the vehicle - driving through a large, unusually deep puddle of water at high speed will often without warning sharply steer the vehicle to the left or right depending on which side drives through it - while TC kicks in and corrects the sudden loss of traction on that side of the vehicle, straightening the vehicle at the same time.

Essentially, if you fight TC, it won't work properly - agreed. I also agree that TC manipulates the vehicle's behaviour, and understand that isn't for everyone. Even for me, under solid weather conditions, I'll turn TC off and have some fun.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I think the software approach is outright dangerous. The problems Toyota is experiencing is proof of that.


Certainly brings new meaning to the term "Software Crash"...


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## KC4 (Feb 2, 2009)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I think I said something about Ford having Microsoft make software to run various functions on it's vehicles. A recipe for a double whammy disaster.


All your digital dashboard readouts turn to BSOD?


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## PenguinBoy (Aug 16, 2005)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I think I said something about Ford having Microsoft make software to run various functions on it's vehicles. A recipe for a double whammy disaster.


You are thinking about "Ford Sync", an in car entertainment system. If this system fails, the driver would be annoyed because she couldn't control her iPod through the steering wheel controls.

This is much different than the real time systems that control functions like engine management, vehicle stability, brake force distribution, etc. You wouldn't want to use a system like Windows (or even OS-X) in those applications, unless you wanted to see a literal "Blue Screen of Death"...

Ford Sync - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

PenguinBoy said:


> You are thinking about "Ford Sync", an in car entertainment system. If this system fails, the driver would be annoyed because she couldn't control her iPod through the steering wheel controls.
> 
> This is much different than the real time systems that control functions like engine management, vehicle stability, brake force distribution, etc. You wouldn't want to use a system like Windows (or even OS-X) in those applications, unless you wanted to see a literal "Blue Screen of Death"...
> 
> Ford Sync - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Trouble is once you start dealing with the devil it is far too easy to allow him to to take over something more critical like maybe the throttle.beejacon


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CHP helps slow runaway Toyota Prius to safe stop


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Not that I want to rush to Toyota's defence or anything, but this story just sounds a little...odd. One wonders if it's not someone out to make big $$$ on a suit against the company, and getting a bit of publicity for it.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

*Runaway Prius case presents nagging questions*

Same questions I have been asking. Plus why on earth is there no simple ignition cut-off.



> By ELLIOT SPAGAT, Associated Press Writer Elliot Spagat, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 5 mins ago
> 
> 
> SAN DIEGO – Investigators are confronted with a series of nagging questions as they try to unravel the case of a California real estate agent who said his Toyota Prius turned into a runaway death trap after the gas pedal became stuck.
> ...


Entire article here until it disappears:
Runaway Prius case presents nagging questions - Yahoo! News


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

The San Diego driver is a realtor who declared bankruptcy last year (not surprisingly). He seems to be back-pedalling (sic) with all of the attention. The trouble with these "cry wolf" cases is that they muddle the real problems. Every car on the road is a potential death machine and we are all too eager to hand over a set of keys and have a driver pass a 20 minute road test. Many drivers have no clue what they are doing and appear to treat driving as one of 10 things they need to do on the way to work. Driving is a privilege yet most people see it as a right. The next thing we'll see is a sticker on the windscreen reminding the driver which pedal is the brake and which is the accelerator.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Still trying to get my head around all the various inter-related bits and pieces. Latest generation auto-transmissions sometimes have locking torque converter clutches. These may also have a device which *prevents the driver from shifting into neutral while accelerating*. The neutral lock-out supposedly protects the transmission. This is required because there is no longer the fluid buffer between engine and transmission at higher speeds. The transmission lock feature is one way, allowing the transmission to spin faster than the engine but not slower. Primary reason for this is marginally better mileage at highway speeds. I believe the shifter lock is called "The Catch 22 Lock".beejacon 

The Prius seemingly has another unique feature. Because of the three motors that together or individually power the vehicle. To shut off the vehicle Toyota selected the worst of Windows and combined it with the worst of Apple. The driver has to find the button labeled "Start" then hold it down for several seconds in order to force the motor(s) to shut down. 

Thus if the electronic gas pedal does push itself to the floor perhaps at the demand of the cruise control. There is a direct drive to the wheels that cannot be disconnected, a powerful engine at full throttle, and a shutdown procedure that is simply not designed to work instantly under panic situations. 

Now I have gathered this info from various sources and a trip to a Toyota dealer is definitely in order to determine how accurate my guesses are.

Edit: Bottom line is when buying any newer car make sure the transmission can be shifted into neutral when accelerating. Also be sure the engine can be easily turned off, while in gear with zero delay.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> Not that I want to rush to Toyota's defence or anything, but this story just sounds a little...odd. One wonders if it's not someone out to make big $$$ on a suit against the company, and getting a bit of publicity for it.


This is what it appears to be in that there seemed to be nothing wrong with the car. We shall see.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Not that I want to rush to Toyota's defence or anything, but this story just sounds a little...odd. One wonders if it's not someone out to make big $$$ on a suit against the company, and getting a bit of publicity for it.


The problems are real, but the attention paid to it by the U.S. government sounds to me like an effort to bring a successful non-union car maker down a peg. This is Chicago-style politics on a national scale.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Macfury said:


> The problems are real, but the attention paid to it by the U.S. government sounds to me like an effort to bring a successful non-union car maker down a peg. This is Chicago-style politics on a national scale.


I do agree with you. However designing a 2 ton juggernauts that can reach speeds of nearly 200 KPH with no fail safe way to shut them down is asking for disaster. The fact that there have been so few major collisions is a tribute to how reliable the technology is. 

Even so no matter how solidly built or fireproof a house is, I would want exits other than the front door. Ditto with a car. Something as innocent as a bit of ice can pin the throttle, the driver needs surefire a way to over ride that, regardless of who built the car.


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