# No Drivers License == second rate treatment



## Guest (Dec 14, 2005)

Beware ... this rant is full of years of pent up aggression but it needs to be shared with the community for my sake at the very least, and also to educate others as to the issues involved here ...

For those of us out there that choose not to drive (I have no license, nor desire to get one) we are not treated like real people. Without "valid" picture ID you're nobody, and the only "valid" pieces of photo ID in my province at least are a) drivers license, and b) passport, c) Age of Majority/BYOB card. You may say and Ontario health card, but it's not officially valid photo ID and can be rejected by anyone who doesn't want to honor it. 

As for the Age of Majority/BYOB card I no longer qualify to get one as I'm past 30, so there goes that one. I've never had one as I worked in bars for very many years and never needed one so I lost that window of opportunity years ago. So as for options if you choose not to drive, you need to get a passport. 

Now here's the fun part, try and get a passport without picture ID. It's _possible_ yes, but it's a royal pain. You need 2 guaranteurs instead of one and it can take _quite_ a while. Funny thing with the passport office though too, they ask you exactly why you need a passport and when and where you are traveling. When I told them that I wasn't actually traveling in the immediate future and just wanted it for ID purposes they actually gave me a really hard time about it. I was then told it could take up to 6 months due to process due to these 'suspicious circumstances' and if I had a drivers license it would be a very simple process. They actually went as far as telling me that I should honestly just go get a drivers license. At that point I felt so infringed upon that I said no thank you and I walked out of their offices.

Also of note I have my original health card and have actually been given a hard time to get the picture version to replace it as a last ditch attempt to get at least _something_ with my picture on it ... why the hard time you ask? Because I have no drivers license. I've written off several letters of complaint about this as I've been refused twice now when trying to get the updated card saying that the 'remote' offices can't do things like this and I would have to find another place to do it. I've yet to get response.

Where does that leave us poor folk that choose not to drive? It leaves us as second rate citizens. I pay my taxes and am as good a citizen as anyone I know with a license. I, for one, completely encourage government issued photo ID. It's pretty much fact that any of the other ID means nothing anymore as I have birth certificate, social insurance, credit cards, bank cards, and all kinds of other things that are not picture ID which no one wants to accept.

Must I really have a license to drive a car in order to be able to do simple things like ... I dunno ... rent a video? Pick up tickets for any sort of travel? How about open a bank account? I have bank accounts, but it involved a very long and drawn out procedure and is still painful at best when trying to withdraw funds from my account ay anything besides an ATM -- in fact I have been refused on several occasions and told to go to my home branch, even when I was hundreds of miles from it at the time. Pretty much any time I want to withdraw more than a couple of hundred dollars from my bank account I can mostly guarantee that it will be at least a 30 minute process, requiring talking to several bank tellers, the manager, them pulling signature cards from my records, making me sign my autograph multiple times so they can scrutinize it, taking copies of my ID (which I'm really not comfortable with), etc.

For any of you that are in this situation I'm sure you can attest to the some of these issues that I've run into. For those that don't believe it, go and try this out for yourself. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sadly most times it doesn't for me.

I've long wanted to rant about this stuff, so thank you all for indulging me  

Rant over.


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## mclenaghan (Sep 27, 2002)

Hello,

If you do live in Ontario then you might be interested in the new committee that I think it is the province set up that is looking into how citizens are being discriminated against. One of the City TV newspeople has been appointed to the committee. It might be of interest to check it out and see if your voice can be heard by people with the power to make a change.

I guess it just shows how plastic oriented our world has become.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2005)

Thanks, that sounds like a great idea, I'll check it out.


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

I've also found that you can't even rent a video without a driver's licence.


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## The Great Waka (Nov 26, 2002)

I hear you. I'm 20 and I haven't bothered to get a driver's license yet (gasp shock horror, I know) because basically I have no need to drive. I did manage to get my OHIP card with a picture, but it was a long and lengthy process, and like you said, it isn't considered legal ID most places. I don't have a passport either, as I've never traveled. The BYID card is the most useless, waste of money I've ever seen. It isn't accepted ANYWHERE outside of the LCBO proper, even though it says quite clearly at the bottom "Issued for the purpose of purchasing beverage alcohol in Ontario". Now, why exactly can't a bar or restaurant accept it? It's that EXACTLY what I'm doing?

So yes, I feel your pain. However I am thinking I'm of folding and just getting the bloody license. Anyone willing to give the $100 it costs to take the test?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Here in Alberta, our government issues official and tamper proof ID cards especially for students and people in your situation. Perhaps you should contact your MPP and ask him or her to consider introducing such legislation and solve the problem for everyone?


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## scootsandludes (Nov 28, 2003)

Why not just go the ministry of transportation and get a G1 license? Just because you have a license doesn't mean you have to drive. The test takes 10 minutes to do and it's blatantly obvious, just ask a few friends what you can expect, you don't have to drive a car, and if you're in Ontario, since privatization, you can go in on Sat. when there's nobody there. People all go during the week and forget that it's open on Saturdays. You get valid ID for a few years, lot less hassle then getting a passport.

Or are you one of those people that have 'Issues' about the idea of having a drivers license? Think of it this way, a passport is a license to travel, and a lot harder to get, and going around to get guarantors, getting a photo taken, line up in a passport office (which can be a day in itself) and actually paying for a passport is a lot more work than going into a chapters to study a drivers handbook for a half an hour then going to the ministry to do a test on saturday. Which all in all will only take a few hours of your time. 

vince


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2005)

Hi scootsandludes

The point is that I don't WANT a drivers license in order to be treated as a citizen and be able to do things that people with a drivers license can do. Our (my?) rights are being held ransome on our ability to drive a motor vehicle and the government doesn't do anything about it.

Also as Waka says above you do have to pay for the license test first of all. Second of all I feel very infringed upon when the ability to get a proper, government issued photo ID is weighted against your ability to pass a written examination based on your ability to follow the rules of the road (!!!)


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Here in Alberta, our government issues official and tamper proof ID cards especially for students and people in your situation. Perhaps you should contact your MPP and ask him or her to consider introducing such legislation and solve the problem for everyone?


something that other provinces should adopt
did I just say something nice about Alberta?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> something that other provinces should adopt
> did I just say something nice about Alberta?


Yep, ya did so! See, we do some things right.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2005)

Wolfshead said:


> I've also found that you can't even rent a video without a driver's licence.


Here's a quick list of the top of my head of other things that I've been refused because I had no drivers license:

- Picking up train tickets (Yes, I was outright refused because I had no picture ID) -- this destroyed last year's christmas in one fell swoop and left me stranded in Toronto hundreds of miles away from my family. The tickets were pre-paid and on Dec 24 they knocked the wind out of my sails.

- making a purchase with a credit card (more than once when making a large purchase they asked for my drivers license and refused to sell to me when I couldn't produce one)

- receiving registered mail (from the government) with very important information in it -- the post office flat out said "when you have a drivers license come back and we'll give it to you" (!!)

- withdrawing money from a bank account (as detailed in previous post)

- renting _anything_. Tools, PA/video equipment, carpet shampooer, anything pretty much. No Photo ID == they won't even LOOK at you. When you try to use a birth certificate, health card and/or Social Insurance card -- which are all Gov't issued ID and all that i've ever been issued -- I literally had one place threaten to phone the police because they thought I was trying to "pull a fast one". sigh. I encouraged them to do so and they backed down but still refused me service.

I'm sure there's tons more of these but I don't want to fill the thread with crap and/or spend much more time on this one here.

I agree that this needs to be implemented canada wide (national Photo ID). Lots of people are against this. I, for one, embrace it!


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

mguertin said:


> you do have to pay for the license test first of all. Second of all I feel very infringed upon when the ability to get a proper, government issued photo ID is weighted against your ability to pass a written examination based on your ability to follow the rules of the road (!!!)



This is really the point here. ID can easily be accessed in a variety of ways, except for the sole perpose of identifing one's self. Getting a passport is not easy. This isn't a battle that impacts me personally, nor would I care to get involved, but it is a curious situation that you must prove your road worthiness to get a document that allows you to rent a movie.

Best,

s.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2005)

Bravo. Thanks mr.steevo.

Now if the Gov't would open their eyes and realize this it would be better for everyone.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Yep, ya did so! See, we do some things right.


I prefer the term "correct"


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

mguertin said:


> I agree that this needs to be implemented canada wide (national Photo ID). Lots of people are against this. I, for one, embrace it!


Too many privacy issues come up with that one....


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2005)

That's where things hit stalemate though ArtistSeries .. some people embrace it (like me). I still don't understand the real privacy concerns with having a piece of photo ID though...

As for privacy most people have given that away quite freely for many years!  (think Airmiles cards for one ... most people don't realize that the whole business model of those types of reward cards are to track your each and every purchase and then sell that info to anyone who wants to buy it).


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## capitalK (Oct 21, 2003)

I'm 28 and have never had a drivers licence. I got a passport when I was 18 (in 1995) and it expired about 5 years ago and is lost. I have flown within Canada and to the states post-911 with only my photo health card and birth certificate and never really have a problem.

It's funny that my bank won't take my photo health card as ID, but they'll take my birth certificate. I could be anyone walking in the bank with that card, but it's good enough for them for id. Too funny.

I plan on getting a drivers licence in the near future because I have a baby daughter now and neither me nor my wife drive. It's probably a good idea if at least one of us does.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

mguertin said:


> That's where things hit stalemate though ArtistSeries .. some people embrace it (like me). I still don't understand the real privacy concerns with having a piece of photo ID though...
> 
> As for privacy most people have given that away quite freely for many years!  (think Airmiles cards for one ... most people don't realize that the whole business model of those types of reward cards are to track your each and every purchase and then sell that info to anyone who wants to buy it).


True. 
People worry about identity theft yet help promote data mining...

I refuse to give out my SIN number to banks and it has caused a few problems in the past - it's none of their business. 

Picture ID are fine if they are only used for one purpose - when those images start being sold and traded and coupled with facial recognition then I start to get worried at the potential for abuse.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Too many privacy issues come up with that one....


A national ID card is really the best way to go. One ultra-secure card. Super anti-copy protected. Then that one card can be used for:

ID
Driver's License
Health Card
NOT SIN!!! (The whole social insurance system is too easily defrauded)
Bank Card
Heck, even allow companies and businesses to use it as a club card / membership card! Blockbuster already does this with your Driver's License.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> I refuse to give out my SIN number to banks and it has caused a few problems in the past - it's none of their business.


Corporate abuse of the SIN really sucks. 

However, you do have to provide it if opening an interest-bearing account, because interest is taxable income. But not for applying for credit or opening a chequing account. Unfortunately, it's all too likely that if you won't give it up, they can get it from someone else.


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## JPL (Jan 21, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> True.
> I refuse to give out my SIN number to banks and it has caused a few problems in the past - it's none of their business.
> 
> Not positive about this BUT I believe Financial Institutions are required to have that info so that they can send you and our friends in Ottawa a T5 should you earn any interest (Taxable income) for any funds you may have on deposit.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

I'm still not clear why people wouldn't just get the learner's permit. Granted, there SHOULD be a better option. But seeing how much not having ID screws you over, is it really worth not getting the learner's card?


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

Hi,

The point is that you shouldn't have to prove your knowledge of traffic laws to get ID. ID is proof of who you are, not that you passed a test.

s.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

mguertin said:


> - Picking up train tickets (Yes, I was outright refused because I had no picture ID) -- this destroyed last year's christmas in one fell swoop and left me stranded in Toronto hundreds of miles away from my family. The tickets were pre-paid and on Dec 24 they knocked the wind out of my sails.
> 
> - making a purchase with a credit card (more than once when making a large purchase they asked for my drivers license and refused to sell to me when I couldn't produce one)
> 
> - receiving registered mail (from the government) with very important information in it -- the post office flat out said "when you have a drivers license come back and we'll give it to you" (!!)


Did you have <em>any</em> photo ID for these three? Because as annoying as it can be when you don't have a DL, refusing service in these three instances to someone without photo ID is for the protection of everyone.

Doesn't Ontario have any kind of ID other than a Drivers License? I BC yu can get a BCID from the same people, which is valid for most things. (see here <a href="http://onlinebusiness.icbc.com/rware/cgi-bin/cqcgi/@icbclib.env?CQ_SESSION_KEY=KFPYCMUTDZCO&CQDC=2&CQ_CUR_DOCUMENT=1&CQ_SAVE[Show_Doc1]=TRUE&CQ_RESULTS_DOC_TEXT=YES&CQ_SAVE[DE_DOMAIN]=http://www.icbc.com&CQ_SAVE[DE_SEARCH_TERM]=bcid">bcid</a>).

Other than that, I'm sorry but I have a hard time having sympathy for anyone who's as old as you are that hasn't gotten around to getting some proper, government issued photo ID yet. It's a pretty big necessity these days. You don't need to prove your knowledge of road laws to get photo ID, what you do need to do is make sure to get new ID before your old one expires.


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## Cliffy (Apr 18, 2005)

I find that in Ontario it is crazy that the picture health card is not proper ID. With the crazy hoops you have to go to get one it is a protected ID.

Why can't the Ontario government just declare it official ID?


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

Hi,

mguertin stated in his initial post that other than a passport or an age of majority card, a drivers license is the only other picture ID that is recognised in his province. He also stated that he is over the age of 30 and so does not qualify for the age of majority card. As he doesn't drive he does not need a drivers license. Is it reasonable for him to carry around his passport with him so he can rent a movie or pick up a package? Given the events of late, walking around with your passport day to day and potentially losing it is foolish. Further, a passport is to prove citizenship while an identification card is to prove who you are. A passport is over kill for proving who you are, and given that it is updated only every 5 years, could potentially be inaccurate with address information. 

The purpose of his rant is to point out that Ontario doesn't have an ID card alternative that is recognised throughout the province, not to create a solution focus group or offer an invitation for ridicule.

s.


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## Jason H (Feb 1, 2004)

mguertin said:


> - renting _anything_. Tools, PA/video equipment,


Hey, that what i do for a job!

What amazes me is the amount of people who DONT CARRY their licence. Especially when they arrive in their car, and ESPECIALLY when they are cab drivers.


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## scootsandludes (Nov 28, 2003)

With all due respect to you not wanting a license, maybe your life would be better if you had a learners permit. But seriously, it's not like it's hard to pass a learners test, you could probably pass by just showing up.

I'm 29, and I have never seen an age of majority card, if you showed me one, I'd think it's a fake ID, I know they exist, and even though it's a legitimate form of ID, I wouldn't know what to look for, and I use to work in bars and restaurants, and I've never came across one.

The thing about a license is that almost everybody has one and knows what to look for, it's a piece of legitimate ID that everybody knows. 

Like I said before, just because you have it, doesn't mean you have to use it. 

Plain and simple, it's the easiest form of ID to get, and it's the most recognized. 

Is it really worth it to live through life jumping over hurdles because you refuse to take a test on the rules of the road? Are you morally opposed to the idea of driving? But seriously, is it worth getting turned down for everything that requires photo ID, because you refuse to take a test for a learners permit? 

vince


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

I think the point here is that an Ontario's Drivers License I.D. Card is a pathetic way of being recognized as a legit citizen in the province of Ontario. 

Has anyone here lost all their I.D. ( for example wallet stolen) in Ontario and tried to get anything back? Do you know what the first question is that they ask you? You guessed it, CAN I SEE SOME PHOTO I.D. please? How the heck are you supposed to produce photo I.D. if everything was stolen? The next question they ask you is, did you own a drivers license, you see this is one way you can try and get at least one piece of I.D. back. But man, good luck, it takes months to jump through hoops and all the crap in Ontario just to get parts of your life back. 

I would rather have one CANADA NATIONAL I.D. card with a chip that holds all the I.D. you ever needed i.e. drivers licence, health card, etc. It would be so much easier, and for those who didn't drive, it wouldn't matter because that card would be your way of proving your identity within Canada and your province.

Do you also know how much it costs to have a system set up like we do in Ontario? I mean, the amount of paper work you have to go through just to get a health card or a new one when your old one expires. It must cost the government millions just for the paper shuffling. Then you have the same lengthy process with the Ontario Drivers License. Even worse when you have to fill out the paper work for a new birth certificate or passport. The Canadian government could easily come up with a way to make one I.D. card to cut away the costs and hassles.


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

scootsandludes said:


> With all due respect to you not wanting a license, maybe your life would be better if you had a learners permit. But seriously, it's not like it's hard to pass a learners test, you could probably pass by just showing up.



What if you're blind, Vince? Pretty hard to pass that test now, isn't it.



Taking a DRIVING TEST to prove IDENTITY is incongruent. Are Canadians so stuck in the world of the automobile that other options are unthinkable?

I'm shaking my head with the "why don't you get a drivers license" mantra.

s.


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

scootsandludes said:


> With all due respect to you not wanting a license, maybe your life would be better if you had a learners permit. But seriously, it's not like it's hard to pass a learners test, you could probably pass by just showing up.



What if you're blind, Vince? Pretty hard to pass that test now, isn't it.



Taking a DRIVING TEST to prove IDENTITY is incongruent. Are Canadians so stuck in the world of the automobile that other options are unthinkable?

I'm shaking my head with the "why don't you get a drivers license" mantra.

s.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

While it's easy for most adults to get a driver's licence, using it as the default ID is problematic in a few ways...

...there are those who choose not to learn to drive
...there are those who can't, because of visual impairment or other disability
...there are those who have had the privilege revoked for legal reasons
...there are those who are too young

On the other hand, virtually 100% of citizens have contact with the healthcare system. OK, in my time I've met ONE guy whose ideology led him to reject having a "communist" health card. Cab driver -- I hope he had a driver's licence.  Such people are surely very rare.

Those who try to excuse Ontario's use of the DL as default ID seem to be accepting a form of institutional laziness. The driver's licence is convenient for most people and businesses because it has picture, address, age, height, etc. But in fact it excludes far too many people to be a good choice for an all-purpose ID card. Instead of starting a national biometric catch-all database (hiya, Big Brother), maybe provinces should consider putting drivers licence-level info on health cards...much simpler and cheaper, because the infrastructure already exists.

edit: the previous post arrived while I was writing this one...well said.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

Well said both of you. Thanks for seeing my side of the argument.

I've always been the stubborn type .. at this point I don't want a drivers license for several reasons, one of them (and a strong one) being principle.

Ontario doesn't have a proper set of ID issued to it's residents flat out. I'm hoping that this rant I've posted will at least make more people recognize it.

I still haven't found the commission that was started that someone mentioned earlier. I've actually written to MP's, letters to the editor, etc over the years. Never gotten more than a canned "thanks for writing" response to anything. 

Maybe I need to start a more visible web based campaign for this sort of stuff ... not that I'm holding my breath that it will really get anything done in a hurry, but maybe it will open some political eyes to see that this is in fact a big problem in Ontario that needs to be addressed. Hey maybe it can even be a campaign promise that someone will use and immediately break once they are in office! LOL


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## mr.steevo (Jul 22, 2005)

Hi,

I suppose why this bothers me so much is that almost none of my psychiatric patients are able to drive due to their condition. Some of my patients are mentally handicapped and so are also considered not fit to drive. In Alberta they can get ID Cards which look very similar to our drivers license card and have the same security features. I don't know what they would do if they lived in Ontario. Not carrying identification can result in harrasement from the police, but what does not offering identification to non-drivers result in? 

s.


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## Squeak (Dec 9, 2005)

What good are Ontario driver's licence since, in news reports lately, 56,000 Ontario licence plates, licence stickers and driving permits have gone missing and may have been stolen. With so much reliance in one form of ID, how sercue and valid is a Ontario driver's licence now with so many items stolen from the offices?


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2005)

They are good for renting videos at the very least


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## sinjin (Jul 12, 2003)

Good for you mguertin.

I have a DL, but wish I did not. I've often been in the situation where the only acceptable form of ID was a DL (or I would have had to jump through a lot of extra hoops if I didn't have one) and it always makes me think about what will happen when I finally don't renew it. It is a stupid system based on the forgone conclusion that you are not a human adult until you own a car.

Anyhow, I had to open a new account at Blockbuster last weekend. I was asked for "a driver's license and another form of picture ID other than a Health Card." I asked why the Health Card was not acceptable, given it is so difficult to get one, and the manager stepped in and answered that it is the Ontario government that specifically requests businesses DO NOT use the Health Card as ID. He was not very useful beyond that explanation. 

Web searching turns up this:


> The Health Cards and Numbers Control Act, 1991 at section 2.2(1) makes it an offence to require another person to produce their health card except for purposes related to the provision of provincially funded health care. Section 3(2) of the Act imposes a fine of not more than $5,000 or not more than six month imprisonment for an individual who contravenes section 2(1). Section 3(3) imposes a fine of not more than $25,000 on a corporation which contravenes subsection 2(1)


I called OHIP to find out more. They helpfully told me that a business can, and should, accept the OHIP card as photo ID if you volunteer it BUT they are not allowed to record information from it. So, in the case of places like Blockbuster where they record the information, they legally can't accept it. But for something like getting into a bar, there should be no problem.


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

I'm 26 years old and I don't have a driver's license, nor do I necessarily want one. I got a picture ID for when I turned 19 so I could buy alcohol and drink in peace as is my right. YEAH PARTY!

Anyway, it was a big hassle. I had to go and get a miniture Birth Certificate card. It cost about $20 back then. Then I had to go the Motor Registration office and pay to get an ID card there... they required the Birth Certificate. Talk about Bureaucracy. Anyway, that's how Newfoundland does the ID card thing. You don't have to take a drivers test and it's not some sort of Age of Majority card.

It looks almost exactly like a driver's licence except for the big red capital letters on it which read "NOT A DRIVER'S LICENCE". People think it's hilarious when they see it and many people don't think it's real. 

It expired back in 2003 and I still use it and no one's ever had a problem with it as a picture ID.

I once wrote a manifesto to a friend and explained how to gain freedom in our society. To truly walk free you need to be free of keys, ID, credit cards... or basically anything in a wallet.

One day... probably not far from now... we will have none of these things. Conterfitting technology will make it all meaningless. Your ID will be your person. Your key will be your person. You money will be your person. It will all be DNA based.

This is not the future that I'm necessarily looking forward to, as such as system would be ripe for abuse from the people controlling it. No I imagine a world where your word and you honour mean more than a picture ID. Where you don't need keys because there will be no locked doors and theft is no longer existant because materialism is of no concern and thus money too is off no concern.

So I find the idea of ID an interesting topic.

I remember thinking when I was a student: "Am I a student because I have a student ID, or do I have a student ID because I am a student. Do I have a student bus pass because I am a student, or do I have bus pass because I have a student ID."

At some point the psyche must scream out... Forget about the bloody ID, I am a person and I exist and I am here! I am because I am. I exist. I am who I say I am.

Identification cards and numbers and schemes dehumanize.

*“I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed or numbered!”*

I am a free man.


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## cjmilne (Nov 17, 2005)

It appears there's some confusion about what an ID represents and what's its purpose is. A Driver's License is meant to indicate that a person is licensed to drive in the province of Ontario, any other use is incidental and not intentional. If Blockbuster requires it to rent videos it's unloaded its security risk onto the Ontario government, it does not mean that you need to be able to drive a car in order to rent a video, that's merely a byproduct of their security procedure. From Blockbuster's perspective they now don't have to do any identification confirmation since the government has performed that for them already. There is no reason to blame the driver's license or the Ontario government for Blockbuster's, or any other companies', decision.

Looking at it from the perspective of the person trying to make the identification it makes perfect sense to not try to identify everyone on your own. You need to establish what's called a chain of trust with the person standing in front of you, that's not a trivial thing to do. It makes good security sense to make it difficult, though it's always important to balance this with convenience.

What concerns me about the concept of a national ID card is it essentially issues every Canadian citizen with a number that can then be tracked for any number of different purposes. I have no interest in having such a number and no interest in anyone, corporate or governmental, tracking me through this number. I much prefer being able to decide what personal information is disseminated and to whom. If I see no need for a company to have my SIN number, I don't have to give it to them. If I have but one ID card I have no such choice. It makes identification theft much simpler and provides a single point of failure. If we then link this number to things like credit, bank accounts, addresses the card will be necessary for absolutely any transcation. That translates into everyone you deal with now having every single piece of information about you. Does Walmart really need your SIN/Passport #/Health Card #/bank account information/home address ? Nope, but the moment you swipe your card through their machines they'll have an opportunity to collect that information.

ID is something to be taken fairly seriously both as a country and as an individual. At the moment privacy concerns should easily outweigh any inconveniences especially as Canada's privacy laws are weakening. What should be even more worrisome is the amount of private information that's already out there. Canadian banks share information with their American counterparts and the Patriot Act was just extended. Not to mention Bush's recent revelation that the NSA has been spying on individuals without needing a warrant for the last couple of years. Add in the plan to fingerprint all incoming tourists at the US border and I start to get the heebie-jeebies. I don't know about you but this trend frightens the hell out of me.

It's up to the individual to determine what's worth it to them, for mguertin it appears it's worth it to not have picture ID that he considers unnecessary. So far nothing has made him change his mind, though it has obviously irritated him. That doesn't mean it's not worth it for everyone else. Each person makes up their own mind and as far as I can see there is no need for an additional form of ID, whether it be provincial or national, photo or otherwise. We have more then enough already.

Chris

for anyone interested in these sorts of issues take a look at Bruce Schneier's collection of essays. He's an applied cryptologist who's thought critically about security, it's issues and tradeoffs.


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## moonsocket (Apr 1, 2002)

Here in New Brunswick you can get an ID at the same place you get your Drivers Licence. I think its $10. Exactly the same as the license except there is no class number on it. All provinces should have something like this.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

My son had his drivers licence (G1) stolen along with his debit card.
Before the theft was discovered the thief went into the bank, deposited a cheque for $1320.00 into my sons account, withdrew $900.00. He used the drivers licence to put my son's name, address and signature on the cheque and used the bank card for the transaction.

My son discovered the theft the same night it was stolen, went into work the next day and reported it - the only time his wallet is not in his pants is at work - and found out that four others had id, credit cards etc missing same day. I reported it to the police...........my son cancelled his debit card and discovered the transaction........reported this to the police and it went to the Fraud department.........we got the cancelled cheque in the mail that was deposited...took this to the police..............in the end they caught the guy....he did the same thing to someone else and the bank teller this time was a little more on the ball. 

The fellow used my sons bank account with only his debit card as ID. He never used the drivers license, other than to obtain the information to put on the stolen payroll/fake payroll cheque (the detective thought it might be fake)....all this found out by the police. SO, not too difficult was it?


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## Makr (Jul 21, 2005)

In BC there's the BCID, which is exactly the same minus being able to drive a car.

Not a big deal here.


However i do understand the second class treatment for not driving. I've been turned down from jobs that don't even have driving in their job descriptions. It's mainly the reliability issue of driving vs. bussing or other means of transportation.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

It seems strange that Ontario won't provide an ID card that isn't a drivers license. Pretty much every other jurisdiction in North America does, some of them are identical to a drivers license except for the "Identification Card" where "Drivers License" normally is printed. They are even issued by the same people.

I say get writing and stir some ****. It's inexcusable that Ontario residents must get a passport for simple photo ID. It has nothing at all to do with driving privledges, and everything to do with politicians who don't do the jobs we elected them to do. Head down to your MPP's office and demand an answer why Ontairo can't keep up with Louisiana and Texas, both of whom would rather shoot the Govenor rather than spend money on anything, yet still find a way to provide everyone with Photo ID whether they drive or not.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Why don't you just apply for a Canadian Citizenship Card?

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/applications/certif.html

It took me 10 minutes of internet searching to find this. It's Government Issued Photo ID.

Done!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ah yes, yet another Liberal thingy.

Hope it doesn't work like the gun registry.


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## Myrddin Emrys (May 24, 2005)

I'm another freak, I don't have a driver's license, and I don't have a need for one although I know how to drive. To boot I can't get one for the reason that I have had arthritis in my neck for several years.

Like the Canadian Citizenship idea because I have undo problems of bring a 'second class' citizen.

It's like that commercial that everyone has a home phone and credit card, bull... I don't use credit cards, one thing that I can say is that I am not in debt.


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