# Apple Updates MacBooks to Santa Rosa, GMA X3100



## Ottawaman (Jan 16, 2005)

Apple Updates MacBooks to Santa Rosa, GMA X3100


As rumored, Apple has quietly updated the MacBook tonight to the Santa Rosa architecture with mild speed bumps and the new GMA X3100 integrated video.

White 13.3"
$1099.00 2.0GHz/2x512MB/80GB/Combo/GMA X3100
$1299.00 2.2GHz/2x512MB/120GB/SD-DL/GMA X3100 

Black 13.3"
$1499.00 2.2GHz/2x1GB/160GB/SD-DL/GMA X3100

The new MacBooks use the Santa Rosa chipset which boasts a faster 800MHz front side bus over the previous MacBook models. The new specs can be seen at the Apple Store



Article Link
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=379594










Product pages not updated yet. Click on MacBook in the store, then click on "Compare Specs" near the middle of the page. it shows the new specs.


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## Ottawaman (Jan 16, 2005)

The MacBook Pro just got a 2.6GHz upgrade option


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## M. Warren (Jan 4, 2002)

I really expected them to update the pricing as well.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

Prices in the OP are US$. Canadians still pay a $150 Maple Leaf Premium.


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## Ottawaman (Jan 16, 2005)

CanadaRAM said:


> Prices in the OP are US$. Canadians still pay a $150 Maple Leaf Premium.


I was just trying to show that the bump occurred since apple didn't upgrade the store page completely.


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## kevs~just kevs (Mar 21, 2005)

I still can't believe a superdrive isn't standard on the macbooks especially at that price... look at the competition, are there any other computer mfg.'s that are still using combo drives??? Ok I'm sure there are, but I thought Apple was suppose to be the leader of the pack you know???


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

I was seriously hoping for a price adjustment to reflect the exchange rate. $1299 for the base Superdrive model less a 6% corporate discount and a $40 coupon would have equalled a purchase for me.


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## WorldIRC (Mar 7, 2004)

$275 is a lot to pay for 2.4 to 2.6 (for the MBP)


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

Looks like they can take more RAM (4GB), and the new graphics can use up to 144MB of it.

• 2.0GHz or 2.2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
• 800MHz frontside bus
• 1GB (two 512MB SO-DIMMs) of 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM (PC2-5300); two SO-DIMM slots support up to 4GB
• Intel GMA X3100 graphics processor with 144MB of DDR2 SDRAM shared with main memory


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

I can't believe that Apple didn't update the pricing to reflect that the dollar hit $1.05 US this week.

They could at least have reduced the $150 price discrepancy to par.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

_*Whine, whine, whine.*_





_Yawn._ 


Good to see a speed bump to the MacBook line, even if it is only a minor one.


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## Billionairess (Jul 15, 2003)

fyrefly said:


> I can't believe that Apple didn't update the pricing to reflect that the dollar hit $1.05 US this week.
> 
> They could at least have reduced the $150 price discrepancy to par.


I do not have a link to back it up or prove it, but I am certain that the tariff that Canada charges for products imported from China is nearly double what the U.S. charges. That could be why the prices did not change. Lately, software seems to be better, with many items at par, but hardware is still different. I do not think the software comes from or is duplicated in China, but I think all of the hardware does.


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## brett (May 27, 2007)

Billionairess said:


> I do not have a link to back it up or prove it, but I am certain that the tariff that Canada charges for products imported from China is nearly double what the U.S. charges. That could be why the prices did not change. Lately, software seems to be better, with many items at par, but hardware is still different. I do not think the software comes from or is duplicated in China, but I think all of the hardware does.



I understand this point, but how does this explain the fact that while our dollar has gotten stronger, the price of the macbook has not changed. 

The tariff has stayed the same, while our dollar has gotten stronger, this should indicate a price drop.


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## WorldIRC (Mar 7, 2004)

Apple is an international company...they price based on the international market...not on the United States. While the economy in the US is dropping, the economy in Canada is not...greatly improving. Remember, the US dollar has gone down...the $CAD has not gone up. Apple's laptops are $1000US...in the US for example. That won't affect what we pay in Canada. We are not purchasing the laptops from the US, we are purchasing them from China.


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## Mr. Fartleberry (Dec 17, 2005)

kevs~just kevs said:


> I still can't believe a superdrive isn't standard on the macbooks especially at that price... look at the competition, are there any other computer mfg.'s that are still using combo drives??? Ok I'm sure there are, but I thought Apple was suppose to be the leader of the pack you know???


Oh boy, you read my mind. I passed on another laptop in the summer because AAPL cripples the entry level and then options you out up the the MBP. They've played this game from day one, CD-ROMS and all that. What's really irritating is that they delete items that cost peanuts to supply and then charge you hundreds to option. 

The big news on the MBP is that other than the Graphics card you are gonna pay more and more. That's OK for people spending their company's money. 

Anyone really expect AAPL to shave a few bucks off considering my dollars worth 6 cents more than their's today?


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Wow. Quadruple posting, eh? 

I have a Core2Duo Blackbook already - I'm not purchasing this update, but the Price drop should have been made.

Apple has price dropped the refurb AppleTV to match US Pricing - isn't that also made in china?


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

WorldIRC said:


> Apple is an international company...they price based on the international market...not on the United States. While the economy in the US is dropping, the economy in Canada is not...greatly improving. *Remember, the US dollar has gone down...the $CAD has not gone up.* Apple's laptops are $1000US...in the US for example. That won't affect what we pay in Canada. We are not purchasing the laptops from the US, we are purchasing them from China.


If you don't know what you're talking about, don't say anything. The reason people believe that the Canadian dollar is not going up is because people claim it isn't, and other people take that at face value without bothering to actually know any thing.

Since September 1 the Canadian dollar has gone from 0.695 to 0.729 against the Euro, from 0.405 to 0.506 against the Pound, and from 109.667 to 120.893 against the Yen.

The Canadian dollar *has gone up* on the backs of increased commodity prices, namely oil (which hit $95 the other day), and gold (which went past $800 the other day).

So, *stop claiming the Canadian dollar is not moving*. Yes, the USD is going down. But the Canadian dollar is going up as well... if you read the business section once a while, you would know this. And if you don't read the business section, then don't make uninformed statements about the state of the economy or currency.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

WorldIRC said:


> Apple's laptops are $1000US...in the US for example. That won't affect what we pay in Canada. We are not purchasing the laptops from the US, we are purchasing them from China.


China deals in $US.

.... next excuse?


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Anyone know how good this graphics card upgrade is? Can the Macbook support the new games with it now?


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## Mr. Fartleberry (Dec 17, 2005)

fyrefly said:


> Wow. Quadruple posting, eh?


Sorry about that, I removed them. Seems my browser had a lot of push and no pull meaning it just timed out leaving me in the lurch. 

To give AAPL.ca a small bit of credit their prices in the past year or two have been much more reasonable than a lot of other retailers that are charging 40% markups. Merchandise supply will likely ramp up due the the American shopping holiday they call Thanksgiving in a few weeks.


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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

kloan said:


> Anyone know how good this graphics card upgrade is? Can the Macbook support the new games with it now?


On my PC I went to the X3100 from the 950 earlier this year. I am not a gamer, but I do some video editing and frankly, I never noticed much difference.


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## shaundesjardins (Apr 19, 2005)

My thoughts exactly. I may not be a economics expert but I'm a mortgage broker and I follow the economy pretty closely. Anyhow, well stated Demosthenes X.



Demosthenes X said:


> If you don't know what you're talking about, don't say anything. The reason people believe that the Canadian dollar is not going up is because people claim it isn't, and other people take that at face value without bothering to actually know any thing.
> 
> Since September 1 the Canadian dollar has gone from 0.695 to 0.729 against the Euro, from 0.405 to 0.506 against the Pound, and from 109.667 to 120.893 against the Yen.
> 
> ...


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

I'm just hoping for un upgrade of the mac mini after Christmas. I'll need a machine that can run StarCraft II whenever that comes out. I think these new macbooks will be able to do the job.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Non-dedicated graphics - which are shared and slow to begin with - will never be _great_ no matter how much memory you end up assigning them, nor do even come close to comparing to a real, dedicated video card on a PCI Express bus.


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> Non-dedicated graphics - which are shared and slow to begin with - will never be great no matter how much memory you end up assigning them


While I know what you mean, perhaps that is a bit general. After all, _great_ could be defined by the user, and if they are delighted with the performance of their Mac with regards to _what they use it for_, then perhaps the graphics are great.

From what I have read, the updated graphics are pretty good within the limits of their nature.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

shaundesjardins said:


> Anyhow, well stated Demosthenes X.


Agree!
I was going to comment on the original statement as well (that the only reason the C$ is going up is because the US$ is dropping), but I couldn't have said it any better than Demosthenes X.

Having said that, I was planning to buy a MacBook to give me something to do on the train trips I take regularly and was holding off until the next revision expecting a price revision as well. However, without the price revision I will just pass - same way I pass on magazines, books or anything else where there is a US$/C$ price differential.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Don't paint all integrated graphics with the same brush if you haven't even tested it. The pixel shader and hardware T&L look promising. 

GMA X3100 has a 500 MHz core while the GMA 950 has a 400 MHz core. 
GMA X3100 has Dynamic Video Memory Technology (DVMT 4.0; 384 MB maximum video memory); the GMA 950 has DVMT 3.0 with support for up to 224 MB of video memory. 
GMA X3100 has Hardware Pixel Shader Model 3.0, the GMA 950 has the earlier 2.0 version. 
The GMA X3100 has a maximum resolution of 2048 x 1536 at a refresh rate of 60 Hz. The maximum resolution is the same for the GMA 950, but the refresh rate is 75 Hz. 

Although still not a gaming GPU, PC notebook reviews are promising: GDC 2007: Intel's G965 Integrated Graphics Performance Sneak Peek - Notebook Forums and Laptop Discussion

Hopefully Apple/Intel get the drivers' right.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

krs said:


> Agree!
> Having said that, I was planning to buy a MacBook to give me something to do on the train trips I take regularly and was holding off until the next revision expecting a price revision as well. However, without the price revision I will just pass - same way I pass on magazines, books or anything else where there is a US$/C$ price differential.


Don't expect perfect parity. The sad fact of the matter is that Canada is a much smaller market, and we are far less competitive, so prices will likely remain higher in Canada, even with dollar parity (or a higher CDN dollar!). I'm sure differing federal trade statutes, tariffs, etc. also impact pricing, but I don't know enough about our trade policies to say for sure. But when the dust settles, expect to pay more than Americans do for most items. Apple also has to maintain infrastructure in Canada, and with a smaller market, that means it costs more per capita to maintain said infrastructure. Consider Apple.ca - not only do they have to maintain it, but also a French version. That costs money.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Interesting -- just like when the MBPs went SantaRosa, the SR MBs (5.0 lbs) are lighter than the non-SR MacBooks (5.2 lbs). 

Another little bit of icing on your cake if you waited for this revision.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Demosthenes X said:


> Apple also has to maintain infrastructure in Canada, and with a smaller market, that means it costs more per capita to maintain said infrastructure. Consider Apple.ca - not only do they have to maintain it, but also a French version. That costs money.


Apple online store is maintained out of one central location for all countries for one. Canadian market has nothing to do with higher maintenance costs of the infrastructure. Apple (like all companies) infrastructure is scaled down in size to match the market. Hence, why there will never be as many retail stores in Canada. Apples Canadian HQ is a lot smaller with much fewer employees than the US. In addition, a lot of services and operational costs are "shared" on a global or continental level (eg, Tech Support (India), return depots (US) ). As well, some infrastructure costs are built into the average cost of all the products post manufacturing and pre-shipment to retail/distribution. So the cost that an Apple store receives it's product for, is higher then the cost of pure material and assembly. One can even argue, the US is costing Apple much more to maintain on a profit level as most advertising and marketing funds are spent there. Most Apple events are held there and the highest cost of employees is there. With higher sales, there are higher returns and warranty costs as well. When you are having a crappy quarter in Sales, the bigger market is always the biggest bleeder.


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## Macinguelph (Oct 27, 2007)

On pricing in Canada vs. U.S. yes it is unfair, but as we know, life is often unfair. On a realistic note, I did some basic math recently and calculated the base price of a new Macbook - $1099 US or $1249 Can. If you live in southern Ontario and decide to drive to say Buffalo (I'm assuming there is an Apple store somewhere around there) here is roughly how it works out. $1099 US is currently $1046.67 CAN. With a rather confusing state/city sales tax in Newyork at roughly 8.25% the out the door pricing is 1133.02. When you get to the border, you must now pay GST and PST - you may also have to pay duty (cannot find exact details on gov't website) but if the country of origin is China, then yes duty will apply. If you are able to claim Newyork sales tax that will save some $, but for this example we'll say no duty but no refund on sales tax. After Canadian taxes, your total is $1291.64. The purchase price after tax for the bought in Canada unit is $1423.86 a difference of $132.22. Now add an additional $50 gas for the Minivan you packed your family into to get to Buffalo and back and your savings is now $82 and change. 

I'm by no means a well off person, but I do think that $82 is not an unreasonable surcharge to keep 2 hours of driving time and a 3 hour border crossing wait time for more productive or enjoyable activities at home. Now maybe a fully spec. MBP would be worth it, but if you can afford that without an expense account, then $200 is probably not worth your time either.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

I was just chatting with a friend who works at an Apple reseller. He tells me that Apple is not offering any price protection for the older models dealers have left in stock. Now they'll have to mark them down to cost or below cost just to clear out old inventory.

Way to stay classy Apple!


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

guytoronto said:


> I was just chatting with a friend who works at an Apple reseller. He tells me that Apple is not offering any price protection for the older models dealers have left in stock. Now they'll have to mark them down to cost or below cost just to clear out old inventory.
> 
> Way to stay classy Apple!


Yup! Apple wholesale priced the new ones a little higher without adjusting the MSRP as well.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

HowEver said:


> Hasn't that always been the case?


Nope. The release of new models usually involves a price protection drop on older stock throughout the channel (usually around 10%). The only time i didnt see it happen was when Apple jumped from IBM to Intel models on the PowerMac/Mac Pros.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

MACinist: true, but with any company there is a fixed minumum cost for infrastructure. Canada, on a per capita basis, will be more expensive to sell products in. To ship items to and within Canada is generally more expensive than in the USA, for example. The Canadian website also requires twice as much work as the American one per capita, because it has to be done in both English and French. It's these sorts of little things, as well as our lack of competitiveness as a market, that lead to higher prices.

But not offering retailers price protection is, imo, a pretty scummy way of doing business.


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## 2hondas (Jun 26, 2007)

I guess my MacBook is now officially outdated.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

The Canadian dollar has been appreciating against most World Currencies for nearly a decade; the big news until now is that it hadn't been changing by the same amount versus the US dollar.

Although it's probably not true that all Apple computers are made in China (South Korea, Hong Kong, etc are just as likely, and there are probably multiple plants in multiple nations) this changes often. Beginning in the '80's and until relatively recently (they last made CRT iMacs), Apple made computers in Ireland.

But, assuming that the particular Mac you want is made in China proper ...

The Chinese Yuan is closely tied to the value of the US dollar ( mid-2005, it was fixed to the dollar at 8.2 Yuan = $US1; although it's not correct to say it now "floats" like our currency does, it has been allowed to appreciate against the dollar at a carefully controlled rate).

One year ago you could buy 6.6 Yuan with one Canadian dollar, now you can buy 8 Yuan with one. Chinese goods priced identically one year ago should be 21% cheaper today in Canadian dollars. You could buy 7.8 Yuan with one US dollar a year ago, and now can buy about 7.5 Yuan. So, Chinese goods priced identically one year ago should be 5% cheaper today in US dollars.

Put another way, a good that costs 7.5 Yuan today should cost about a dollar in the US and about 94 cents in Canada. Note how closely that compares to the Canada-US exchange rates.

China is a Most Favored Nation with regard to trade with Canada. They also enjoy a General Preferential Tariff status. This means they have the same preferred import treatment as most Asian nations such as the Philippines, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Vietnam, etc and have lower duty rates than places like Sweden, Spain or Taiwan. The only nations that have even lower duties are the very poorest nations who are also Most Favored Nations and benefit from the Least Developed Country status (eg Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, East Timor, Haiti, etc).

Consumer electronics, computers and computer software generally enter Canada duty free, and have since duties on these goods were eliminated in the late 1980's. Broadly speaking you are dealing with Classification 85xx.xx.xx; which is Customs-speak for "electrical stuff-all of it".

It's too tedious to sift through the schedules, and searches on such terms as "laptop computers" gets you nothing ("not specific enough" error) so I'm going to give some random examples, random being much easier to find (note that the numbers are international classification codes; an "8517.11.xx" is "Telephones" in all nations that use this system, which includes Canada, the US, and China):

Telephones: 8517.11.00 Duty: Free (all nations)
Cellular Telephones: 8517.12.xx Duty: Free (all nations)
Wireless Data Base Stations: 8517.60.00 Duty: Free (all nations)
Fax Modems: 8517.62.31: Duty: Free (all nations)
Microphones: 8518.10.10: Duty: Free (all nations)
Microphone Stands: 8518.10.20: Duty: Free (all nations)

Well, I can assure you a MacBook is in there somewhere, but I don't have all week to find it. However, we can look at some of the few items with duties; broadly speaking that will be something we make a lot of in Canada.

One good example: Software with media. The software program itself is duty free, the license is duty free, the documentation is duty free, the package is duty free, but the media (the CD or DVD itself) has a duty since we manufacture a lot of CDs and DVDs in Canada. So, 6.5% of the cost of the disk alone; probably a buck; let's say two. That will be 13 cents duty on a retail box of Leopard, plus about ten bucks GST.

The last Television factory in North America closed nearly a decade ago (the Thomson RCA factory in Ontario) we can expect the CRT TV class to be zero too. But, here's one:

Single Loudspeakers, mounted in their enclosures: 8518.21.00.00: Duty: 6.5%
Multiple Loudspeakers, mounted in the same enclosure: 8518.21.00.00: Duty: 6.5%

Aha, the (quite successful) Canadian speaker industry rears it's head. Okay, speakers from China, then?

Nope. The 6.5% does not apply to:
AUT, NZT, CCCT, LDCT, 
GPT, UST, MT, MUST, 
CIAT, CT, CRT: Free

What does that mean? It means if the speakers in enclosures were from:
Australia (AUT); New Zeland (NZT), Chile (CCTA), Least Developed Country Tariff (a bunch of places; broadly all the "third world" nations like Haiti, Bangladesh, East Timor, etc); General Preferred Tariff (GPT- that's the big one ... China, all the asian manufacturing countries except Taiwan and North Korea, basically); United States Tariff (UST ... and you though there was only one); MT? Dunno, even CCRA doesn't seem to know what agreement this is; MUST? Again, nobody knows; Israel (CIAT; Canada's oldest Free Trade Agreement); CT? There is a Commonwealth Tariff, maybe that's it, although I can't find that anywhere; Costa Rica (CRT). Anyway, no duty if it came from any of these nations. So, zero, then, for speakers in enclosures from China.

Be careful not to confuse "Value For Duty" as meaning duty will apply; with Customs they really do multiply by zero a lot.

Also, wholesale imports are not the same as retail imports by the end user; if you buy something at a store in New York it won't be treated like it came off a ship from China. There is a duty rate when you go over your Personal Exemption, but it's got nothing to do with whether it's a laptop from Taiwan or a Bucket Seat from Detroit. In fact, you will pay a duty on a Made-in-Canada item if you buy retail for personal use in the US and go over your exemption when you return to Canada.

Having said that, you can always do a proper import with the correct documentation. Almost everything can be imported more than one way, and often under more than one classification. It's not a crime to use the classification that costs the least as long as it applies. If you just show up at the border with a retail receipt, expect to be treated like you just showed up with a retail receipt.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Hasn't that always been the case?


No, Apple has always offered some price protection when they change models.

Here's another kicker. Apple doesn't give dealers demo discounts. If a dealer sets up a MacBook for display, to let people try it, Apple's policy is that the dealer is the customer of that unit, the warranty starts that day, and they pay full price for the unit. This is a massive difference from other manufacturers who either give demo model discounts, allow warranty to start from the day the consumer purchases it, or both.

And if the dealer has inventory older than 90 days, Apple AUTOMATICALLY starts the warranty, and it's up to the consumer to prove they bought it at a later date.

To think years ago Apple opened it's own retail stores because they felt resellers weren't doing more to sell Macs. I can't imagine why... 

Apple Reseller Relations - classy to the end :clap:


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Demosthenes X said:


> MACinist: true, but with any company there is a fixed minumum cost for infrastructure. Canada, on a per capita basis, will be more expensive to sell products in. To ship items to and within Canada is generally more expensive than in the USA, for example. The Canadian website also requires twice as much work as the American one per capita, because it has to be done in both English and French. It's these sorts of little things, as well as our lack of competitiveness as a market, that lead to higher prices.
> 
> But not offering retailers price protection is, imo, a pretty scummy way of doing business.


Shipping within Canada: please provide facts when making a statement like that. Believe it or not, gas is cheaper in Canada then the US. Shipping is relatively the same if not cheaper. Not to mention, Purolator is semi-subsidized by the government and shipping via Canada Post now is dirt cheap. 
Canadian website: Maintaining a french translation of the website is not expensive. The translation is mostly software based and the website is mirrored out of one central location. In fact, the US Apple online store is more robust underneath. They have more Sates (different laws) including non-continental ones like Hawaii and Alaska. More financing options. Bigger refurb section. Way bigger educational section. A true Business Store. Free Recycling. So, underneath, the cost is probably greater with the US online store. 
Competition in Canadian market: nothing to do with it. Apple is really competing against itself as a different platform. All other PC brands are equally offered in Canada. And Apple is one of the only brands that maintains an MSRP agreement with all it's authorized resellers that prohibit them to sell below MSRP in most cases if product is current. Margin's are so thin on Apple that a reseller has no choice but to sell at MSRP to even be remotely profitable. If you ever worked in the distribution channel like me, you would see the entire situation in a different light.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

HowEver said:


> "Apple Canada has different operating costs. So, unfortunately, no discount is offered at this time."


This is bunk..............

IMHO the real reason is this:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003968398_apple23.html

Fourth Quarter Results:

Operating profit up 67%
Increase in Mac Sales from previous quarter: 34% (2.16M Macs)

Apple is probably struggling just to keep up with the orders - I had to wait several weeks before my MacBookPro shipped.

So why reduce the price which is what selling the Macs at par with the US dollar would amount to.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a price increase lurking in the future.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

MACinist said:


> Shipping within Canada: please provide facts when making a statement like that. Believe it or not, gas is cheaper in Canada then the US. Shipping is relatively the same if not cheaper. Not to mention, Purolator is semi-subsidized by the government and shipping via Canada Post now is dirt cheap.


Because gas prices are the only element that determines shipping costs? Canada is a massive country with a very low population density. The cost of getting equipment from one end of the country to the other is both more expensive and less profitable than in the USA. Instead of having distribution centers scattered across the nation, Canadian companies have one or two: in the Toronto area, or in the Calgary area. If a store in Vancouver wants product, it's coming from Toronto (for the most part). In the States, chances are there's a distribution center closer to home because the population density supports it. Now, with Apple, everything comes from the States, so I can't ready explain why it would cost more to ship to any one place in Canada. But it remains more expensive to ship across the border than within the USA, generally.



> Canadian website: Maintaining a french translation of the website is not expensive. The translation is mostly software based and the website is mirrored out of one central location. In fact, the US Apple online store is more robust underneath. They have more Sates (different laws) including non-continental ones like Hawaii and Alaska. More financing options. Bigger refurb section. Way bigger educational section. A true Business Store. Free Recycling. So, underneath, the cost is probably greater with the US online store.


Which completely ignores the point - that the Canadian online store is likely as or more expensive to run per capita. Yes, the US store costs more - but American Apple product sales are much greater, so the cost of running the store is spread over a much greater space. In Canada, they're basically maintaining two websites for a population of 30 million, or one site for 15 million. The costs of that site spread over the population is going to be costly.

Simply put, in a smaller market, the costs of doing business are almost always higher.



> Competition in Canadian market: nothing to do with it. Apple is really competing against itself as a different platform. All other PC brands are equally offered in Canada. And Apple is one of the only brands that maintains an MSRP agreement with all it's authorized resellers that prohibit them to sell below MSRP in most cases if product is current. Margin's are so thin on Apple that a reseller has no choice but to sell at MSRP to even be remotely profitable. If you ever worked in the distribution channel like me, you would see the entire situation in a different light.


You're dreaming if you think Apple doesn't have to be competitive with other manufactures just because it runs a different OS. If people would pay any price for a Mac, then Apple would be charging $10 000 for a MacBook. The lack of competition in Canada means people will be (by and large) willing to pay for a Mac than they are in the United States. Competition is a huge factor in pricing, and a less competitive market means higher prices.


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## WorldIRC (Mar 7, 2004)

MACinist said:


> Shipping within Canada: please provide facts when making a statement like that. Believe it or not, gas is cheaper in Canada then the US. Shipping is relatively the same if not cheaper. Not to mention, Purolator is semi-subsidized by the government and shipping via Canada Post now is dirt cheap.
> Canadian website: Maintaining a french translation of the website is not expensive. The translation is mostly software based and the website is mirrored out of one central location. In fact, the US Apple online store is more robust underneath. They have more Sates (different laws) including non-continental ones like Hawaii and Alaska. More financing options. Bigger refurb section. Way bigger educational section. A true Business Store. Free Recycling. So, underneath, the cost is probably greater with the US online store.
> Competition in Canadian market: nothing to do with it. Apple is really competing against itself as a different platform. All other PC brands are equally offered in Canada. And Apple is one of the only brands that maintains an MSRP agreement with all it's authorized resellers that prohibit them to sell below MSRP in most cases if product is current. Margin's are so thin on Apple that a reseller has no choice but to sell at MSRP to even be remotely profitable. If you ever worked in the distribution channel like me, you would see the entire situation in a different light.


Agreed! When I look at my costs on Apple...well lets just say, if I were to take my stores discount on regular products and apply it to apple, I'd be paying more then MSRP...that's how low the margins are.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

DX: Let's just say, I'm in product management for the biggest distributor in the world. This has been my work for the past 10 years. It would be fair to assume that I know the costs of shipping in both regions and I know the cost of product in both regions and it is my job to know the market. For you to make these claims without any facts or credentials is ridiculous and I'd rather not waste anymore time rebutting to speculative opinions that have no foundation, truth or even sources.



Demosthenes X said:


> If you don't know what you're talking about, don't say anything. The reason people believe that the Canadian dollar is not going up is because people claim it isn't, and other people take that at face value without bothering to actually know any thing.


You criticized an earlier thread which I totally agreed with you, however, unless you provide some grounds I think your own statement applies here as well. Same goes for me, I am not providing proof either as I am going off my career knowledge but I think to continue the argument, facts have to be entered into the discussion from both sides. I’m just too lazy to Google it as I can’t give out confidential work data.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

MACinist said:


> Believe it or not, gas is cheaper in Canada then the US. Shipping is relatively the same if not cheaper.


Hmmm, someone else needs to check their facts. 

First, have a look at Montana's gas prices and compare them to Alberta's gas prices. Including the current exchange rate and appropriate conversions (3.78 liters/US gallon), Montanans are currently paying, on average, nearly 11 cents/liter less than Albertans.

If you follow the page down on the LH side, it shows not only the average price in the state/province but in the country, too. US is paying around CDN $0.84/liter ($2.971 dollars per US gallon/3.78 liters per US gallon/0.934 US cents per Loonie), Canada is CDN $1.02, $0.18/liter more, on average!

I, too have a little experience in the freight industry (over 20 years of parts, purchasing, shipping, receiving & driving). During that time, Canadian freight prices were _never_ less than US freight prices. For that matter they were never even close.

A quick check on UPS for a box 12x12x12 inches, weighing 10 lbs, valued at USD $100 from Buffalo, NY to Great Falls, MT is rated at USD $14.09 for standard ground service. 

A similar trip in Canada (from Toronto, ON to Lethbridge, AB) for a carton with identical specs valued @ CDN $100, is rated at CDN $34.04. Not cheaper. Not relatively the same. Not even close.

That's on a single carton. For full loads & LTL, the disparity is also present. We'd frequently use a US carrier to pick up freight in southern Ontario, cross stateside & truck the freight in bond to customs in Southern Alberta. We'd make the trip to the border (about an hour each way), pick up the freight and still save money.


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## Paul O'Keefe (Jun 3, 2005)

Perhaps there is no CDN price at par with the US because some different business scales and realities on the ground, however, our dollar is now significantly stronger than par. That should offset those unique differences and costs incured in Canada.

Basically I would be happy with a price at par even though our dollar is worth more.

I am happy to see Leopard priced at par though.


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

Let's rename this thread to Who's got a bigger Wee Wee?

Actually you can rename most threads on Ehmac the same way with Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 and so on.


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## Demosthenes X (Sep 23, 2004)

A very good breakdown, FeXL. I admit I am speculating on freight prices in Canada compared to the USA, but this is speculation based on logic. FeXL has provided some actual numbers to further this argument. But even if one considers the logical breakdown of Canada, freight prices should be higher. More land mass, fewer people. That makes it less worthwhile to send a truck full of goods from Ontario to British Columbia than from Detroit to Seattle. Less population density also means, as I've said, fewer distribution centers, which means each truck needs to go a longer distance. In the Detroit-Seattle example, there's likely a depot somewhere in between. In Canada, there might be one in Calgary, but a lot of product reaching the West Coast still comes from central Ontario. That's a long way to move those products.

There are less trucks on the roads and less planes in the sky. This means fewer options to move your goods, which in turn means more competition to get the good flights/routes/etc. This increases the price of moving goods.

I don't know where you're getting your information, MACinst, because neither the logic nor FeXL's math agrees with it. And if it's confidential work data, you or I shouldn't be able to Google it, either.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Paul O'Keefe said:


> Basically I would be happy with a price at par even though our dollar is worth more.


Walmart just saw the light and books, magazines etc. are now sold in Canada at the US preprinted price.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

This whole discussion about freight rates, population density, distribution centre locations, cost to maintain web sites etc. is totally useless when it comes to pricing at the manufacturer level..
Price at the manufacturer level is never based on cost - pricing is done in relationship to Market and Competition; costs only come into the picture when you calculate profit margin, ROS and ROI.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

MACinist said:


> Not to mention, Purolator is semi-subsidized by the government and shipping via Canada Post now is dirt cheap.


I think you have that backwards. I believe the profits from Purolator help subsidize the costs rural post delivery in Canada.


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## brett (May 27, 2007)

Overall I think this is a bad move on apple's part. This isn't a thread filled with posters saying that a pc is cheaper then a mac The people who are upset in this thread are strong mac supporters. I'm always convincing people to buy apple computers, but at this point I can't do it, I'll probably tell people to wait for a price readjustment or buy used.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

krs said:


> Price at the manufacturer level is never based on cost - pricing is done in relationship to Market and Competition; costs only come into the picture when you calculate profit margin, ROS and ROI.


True for some, perhaps, but not all.

Worked for a production facility a few years back, we built trailers of all types (stock, horse, snowmobile, flat decks, plus gravel and grain boxes). Selling price was calculated as X times cost.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

FeXL said:


> True for some, perhaps, but not all.
> .


Yes - "never" in my post was perhaps a bit too strong a word.

What I stated applies to large high-tech hardware/software manufacturers, my company is something along the lines of Cisco.
I think Apple falls into the same category.

If you look at the Canadian dollar, since March '07 when the loonie was at .85 cents American, it has appreciated over 25% to today's level - if Apple based their selling price on cost, I would have expected a substantial price adjustment over that period - either downward in Canada or upward in the US.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Like I said, I was/am too lazy to Google for a link:



FeXL said:


> First, have a look at Montana's gas prices and compare them to Alberta's gas prices. Including the current exchange rate and appropriate conversions (3.78 liters/US gallon), Montanans are currently paying, on average, nearly 11 cents/liter less than Albertans..
> If you follow the page down on the LH side, it shows not only the average price in the state/province but in the country, too. US is paying around CDN $0.84/liter ($2.971 dollars per US gallon/3.78 liters per US gallon/0.934 US cents per Loonie), Canada is CDN $1.02, $0.18/liter more, on average!


Or just go here and save yourself the work. Gas prices aren't exempt from the unrecognized parity issue we are discussing. Keeping that in mind, it's about even based on old exchange rate.



FeXL said:


> A similar trip in Canada (from Toronto, ON to Lethbridge, AB) for a carton with identical specs valued @ CDN $100, is rated at CDN $34.04. Not cheaper. Not relatively the same. Not even close.
> That's on a single carton. For full loads & LTL, the disparity is also present. We'd frequently use a US carrier to pick up freight in southern Ontario, cross stateside & truck the freight in bond to customs in Southern Alberta. We'd make the trip to the border (about an hour each way), pick up the freight and still save money.


You comparison and information is correct but does it relate to the cost of the Macbook? You have to consider that big companies with heavy dependence on logistics such as Apple and it's distributors have North American contracts with each carrier. Carriers' compete for these contracts with each other. In most cases, these are North American contracts and one region's pricing is leveraged with the others. So going online and getting a rate estimate is a bit inaccurate. In addition, in most cases, the bigger the order to Apple or distribution, the less of a chance a reseller is paying for any kind of shipping as the total profit is enough to eat cost of shipping to benefit from the one time revenue with lesser margin profit.

I'll say this, you and DX are right in the sense that it is more expensive to ship product in Canada by a consumer, SMB, Enterprise customer that does not depend on volume logistics. I may have led myself down the wrong path regarding freight so let me re-state what I meant to say: freight has little effect on the wholesale cost of the Macbook as contractual volume shipping rates are easily hidden into the margin on large orders without passing the cost to distribution and the reseller. Apple resellers sell current product at Apple's MSRP. Apple does not come up with an MSRP based on freight rates. Sorry for contributing to a "wee wee" show. 

KRS: you couldn't be more right.


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## The Great SNAFU (Jan 12, 2005)

mikeinmontreal said:


> Let's rename this thread to Who's got a bigger Wee Wee?
> 
> Actually you can rename most threads on Ehmac the same way with Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 and so on.


LOL yeah, that's about it. It's like the old Mac/PC debate...in the end who cares...I MUST be right OR ELSE...are any of these people even married?!  

Can we get back on topic and debate the one true reason for this thread?

*The Mac Book now has half decent video in it* :clap: 

I am very close to getting a black one now as it should suffice for all my needs.


SNAFUgungfutoo


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

The Great SNAFU said:


> *The Mac Book now has half decent video in it* :clap:


Does anyone know how much of a difference in performance one would get from the GMA 3100 vs the GMA 950? Also, will display quality be better?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Yuch. I hate that keyboard design. So now you either get to pick quick volume change, or quick dashboard/expose functions. And I do realize that there's dashboard and expose buttons on the other side:










But that expose key just mimics the functionality of the original F9 key press. What about F10 for all windows of the current application and (my used hourly favourite) F11 for hide all and go to desktop. Now you have to pick between that and the volume keys?  (and also again, I realize that you can enable function + F key to do the other action-- but again that requires more work, more time...)

IMHO this is Crummy.


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