# Apple defensive over Consumer Reports findings, deletes forum threads



## iphoneottawa (Apr 21, 2010)

Apple defensive over Consumer Reports findings, deletes forum threads | iPhone Atlas - CNET Reviews


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I don't really see what the issue is.
If these two "metal bands" are two different antennas (and everything I read tells me they are so I accep that at face value) and if you place your hand or finger so it bridges that gap between these antennas, especially if your hands are sweaty, then of course it's going to affect reception.
That this is a hardware problem has already been proven by various tests and is pretty obvious.

The display of the signal strength bars being calculated incorrectly is a software issue, but relating that to the reception problem when the antennas are bridged is a red herring.

So getting back to the reception issue - if a simple piece of duct tape or some other insulating material over that gap solves the problem, why not just do that.
Conceptually that could be like a wide elastic band manufactured out of the proper material which could be made to look quite attractive and would be dirt cheap to manufacture.
Add it to new shipments - offer it to existing customers for free - in the end a lot cheaper than this PR fiasco Apple is creating.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Do you think this is maybe the reason for the delayed release of iPhone 4 in Canada and other places? Nip the problem in the bud before it's out there? Damage control? If Apple gives away free bumpers will CR change its recommendation?


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## spiffychristian (Mar 17, 2008)

.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

apple acting like fascists by deleting those threads isn't helping their cause.

How much do those bumper cases actually cost apple at the manufacturing level? maybe 50 cents (if that). I can't believe they just won't throw one in with every iphone. It would seem to be the easiest solution.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

spiffychristian said:


> yeah, sure the bumpers are great: they block off the part that's most likely to get scratched, adds a splash of color and grip to your iphone...
> 
> but what if like me, you don't care about phone cases, and you want a working phone right out of the box without having to put a case on it.
> 
> ...


Maybe you need to move to the UK and buy and use one there, where the "problem" doesn't seem to exist.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

i-rui said:


> apple acting like fascists by deleting those threads isn't helping their cause.
> 
> How much do those bumper cases actually cost apple at the manufacturing level? maybe 50 cents (if that). I can't believe they just won't throw one in with every iphone. It would seem to be the easiest solution.


Except that some of us want a phone that just works and don't like/want/will never use the "bumper". Apple needs to fix the problem in hardware, do a recall and move on.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

i-rui said:


> apple acting like fascists by deleting those threads isn't helping their cause.
> 
> How much do those bumper cases actually cost apple at the manufacturing level? maybe 50 cents (if that). I can't believe they just won't throw one in with every iphone. It would seem to be the easiest solution.


Except that all the people who make their money off of accessories for iPhones would now lose out on that part of the market because Apple would be undercutting them. Maybe a better plan is either a free bumper or $30 off the case of your choice at any Apple reseller, whether you need one or not. No one ever knocks a company for erring on the side of generosity.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Macified said:


> Except that some of us want a phone that just works and don't like/want/will never use the "bumper". Apple needs to fix the problem in hardware, do a recall and move on.


I think apple should fix the problem in a later revision for sure, but I think the problem is being overblown (it's a legit concern, but plenty of phones suffer from the same problem and haven't/won;t be recalled).

Of course if people have concerns over the reception then they have the right to not buy it. I would never doubt that and would fully accept that position. I don't think apple has to recall it when the phone does work fine with a reasonable solution (holding it slightly different or getting a case)



fjnmusic said:


> Except that all the people who make their money off of accessories for iPhones would now lose out on that part of the market because Apple would be undercutting them. Maybe a better plan is either a free bumper or $30 off the case of your choice at any Apple reseller, whether you need one or not. No one ever knocks a company for erring on the side of generosity.


I think you misread what i suggested. I'm saying apple should be giving a free bumper with every iphone.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

i-rui said:


> I think apple should fix the problem in a later revision for sure, but I think the problem is being overblown (it's a legit concern, but plenty of phones suffer from the same problem and haven't/won;t be recalled)..


Not true, no other phone drops reception simply from being touched. The iPhone drops 20dB just from a finger touching the left corner.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I've had a cell phone since 1987 and have NEVER had one that dropped the signal from touching it. This is an Apple hardware issue that they must fix or lose their rep as a phone manufacturer with the public.

As Apple's PR disaster grows, some say recall




> This week, people are talking about a hardware recall. Professor Matthew Seeger of Wayne State University told Cult of Mac that a hardware recall is "inevitable." Meanwhile, Dr. Larry Barton can't understand Apple's slow response. "There has to be a military-like response to this issue," he told Cult of Mac. "And we have not seen this kind of urgency."


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## iphoneottawa (Apr 21, 2010)

When iPad came there were also reports of WiFi problems. We have a few in our office and only one loses connection sometimes. The owner kept it and don't want to exchange it.
It will be the same with iPhone 4. We will all get one and if there's a problem we can always exchange it.
Not a big deal for me.
If you read the CR full report, iPhone 4 is still the highest rated smart phone they have!


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## iphoneottawa (Apr 21, 2010)

AppleInsider | Consumer Reports ranks Apple's iPhone 4 best smartphone available


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## iphoneottawa (Apr 21, 2010)

AppleInsider | Radio engineer: Consumer Reports iPhone 4 testing flawed


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

kevleviathan said:


> Not true, no other phone drops reception simply from being touched. The iPhone drops 20dB just from a finger touching the left corner.


I've had several phones over the years which i had to hold a certain way to avoid bad reception. my last nokia flip phone was especially sensitive, and would drop calls if my hand was near the antenna (so i had to specifically hold it near the bottom)


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

i-rui said:


> I think you misread what i suggested. I'm saying apple should be giving a free bumper with every iphone.


I think I read it perfectly. Not everyone wants a bumper—I certainly wouldn't. I prefer a case that covers the back too so that I would have a better grip, much like I do on my 3GS iPhone. $29 off the price of a case of my choice would go a long way to increasing the peace. That's an Apple bumper or the equivalent credit. Totally do-able and doesn't undercut the competition.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

spiffychristian said:


> sorry, but apple has gotta fix this the right way and take a hit - they have enough money and people will forget about it once they have no reason to complain anymore.


What do you think is "the right way"?
If the issue is bridging the two antennae with ones finger or hand the way it is being described by the various organizations testing it, the "right way" is a pretty dramatic hardware change.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> I think I read it perfectly. Not everyone wants a bumper—I certainly wouldn't. I prefer a case that covers the back too so that I would have a better grip, much like I do on my 3GS iPhone. $29 off the price of a case of my choice would go a long way to increasing the peace. That's an Apple bumper or the equivalent credit. Totally do-able and doesn't undercut the competition.


But that's a MUCH more expensive solution for Apple. The Bumper case costs them a minimal amount of REAL cost. But for a $30 credit on cases from ANOTHER manufacturer, you'd be looking at Apple's wholesale cost on those cases....which would be maybe $15 each. 

$15 X millions of iphones becomes a pretty big hit in the pocketbook (even for apple).

Apple is offering a 30 day return policy on iphone 4s for people not happy with them (which is pretty reasonable). I think a free bumper case is also within reason to keep customers happy if it solves the reception issue.


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## KMPhotos (Jun 17, 2008)

i-rui said:


> apple acting like fascists by deleting those threads isn't helping their cause.


Agreed. Apple needs to say something. They need to restore some of the lost consumer confidence. 

However, as for deleting the threads, we need to remember the board is supposed to be for people asking questions or having problems. I don't think Apple wants it to become a place where people bash the company. So it is within their right to delete stuff. 

But, yes, it's not helping the image right now.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

They should just give all new iPhone 4 users a free "Bumper" case,
That should solve all their problems...Right?


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

iphoneottawa said:


> If you read the CR full report, iPhone 4 is still the highest rated smart phone they have!


wow. So it exceeded in every category except the phone reception part - which is the most important part if you are a phone! 

I was going to get one anyways amongst the reception issues, but the way that Apple is handling this matter, has made me put down the Kool-Aid for now.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ditto, only the hard core fanboys are willing to give Apple a reprieve on this one. Bottom line, the reception sucks. Fix it or take it off the market until they get it right.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Rumors of New iPhone 4s with Non-Conductive Antennas - Mac Rumors

This thread seems to suggest that there are iPhone's which have been fixed in the manufacturing process. Though it's not confirmed.


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## mkolesa (Jul 22, 2008)

jawknee said:


> Rumors of New iPhone 4s with Non-Conductive Antennas - Mac Rumors
> 
> This thread seems to suggest that there are iPhone's which have been fixed in the manufacturing process. Though it's not confirmed.


that would make sense, the obvious way to fix the problem, and not just apply a band-aid (which is what a bumper case is), is to coat the metal to make it non-conductive to touch. and that would affect the appearance somewhat, depending on what process is used to coat the metal (it could be something as simple as spray painting it with a clear coat of something or they could be dipping the metal parts). anyway, this isn't a particular surprise, and i guess the matter is more how it will be handled from a pr point of view. you would think they'd offer to replace every phone where the customer perceives a prob...


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## ssent1 (Sep 3, 2005)

Compared to hardware design problems, software problems are cheap to fix. Even if the problem is truly minor, the perception that there's a hardware issue could stop sales dead in their tracks as consumers decide to wait until a new revision comes out. 

If I recall correctly, Samsung had a similar issue where consumers were shopping for monitors by revision codes. Not a good place to be if you're a public company.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

i-rui said:


> apple acting like fascists by deleting those threads isn't helping their cause.


Bull - people complain about Apple deleting threads all the time. Bottom line is they are support threads, leaving a bunch of threads up that just say "me too" or complaining to Apple don't help anyone who wants a solution to their problem. I'm fully supportive of Apple deleting unhelpful threads on their support site. It's not a feedback site, it's for support.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

hayesk said:


> I'm fully supportive of Apple deleting unhelpful threads on their support site. It's not a feedback site, it's for support.


Weeeeeeeeell -

I don't check the Apple discussion (or support) site regularly, but how often has Apple deleted positive feedback? My guess would be "zip"


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I think you people are _discussing it all wrong_. If EhMax deletes this thread, the situation will improve.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

krs said:


> Weeeeeeeeell -
> 
> I don't check the Apple discussion (or support) site regularly, but how often has Apple deleted positive feedback? My guess would be "zip"


The first thing you see when you go to the Apple discussion forums is this:

_Our discussion forums are filled with thousands of Macintosh, iPod and iPhone users from around the world. Search for an answer, post your question, or answer other users' questions in the Apple Discussions community. If you need help using Discussions, check out the Help & Terms of Use link in the sidebar to the right._​
It was removed because it didn't fall under the criteria, not because Apple was being defensive. It really is that simple.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

I can't believe this has stretched to 3 pages! If someone complained on my companies help discussion boards, damn right it would be deleted. It's not ****in rocket science lol, this thread should have been deleted after the first nonsensical post. (ie. the OP)


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## iphoneottawa (Apr 21, 2010)

Apple Stock Drops Since iPhone 4; Analysts, Consumers Unfazed | Epicenter| Wired.com


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## benmossm (Mar 10, 2008)

krs said:


> I don't really see what the issue is.
> If these two "metal bands" are two different antennas.


If this phone only had more metal bands it would rock!:lmao:


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> The first thing you see when you go to the Apple discussion forums is this:
> 
> _Our discussion forums are filled with thousands of Macintosh, iPod and iPhone users from around the world. Search for an answer, *post your question*, or answer other users' questions in the Apple Discussions community. If you need help using Discussions, check out the Help & Terms of Use link in the sidebar to the right._​
> It was removed because it didn't fall under the criteria, not because Apple was being defensive. It really is that simple.


You lost me totally........

How does a comment like" "I just got this new iphone and it's dropping calls compared to my old one. Anyone else have a similar experience, what's going on?"

not fall into the criteria of "post your questions?

And the next guy would pipe up and say "Gee, I have the same problem" or "No, works fine for me" - which falls into the "answer other users' questions" category.

This scenario happens all the time - here on ehMac as well.
I have never seen any posts on ehMac deleted because someone commented that an Apple product wasn't working as expected.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Elric said:


> I can't believe this has stretched to 3 pages! If someone complained on my companies help discussion boards, damn right it would be deleted. It's not ****in rocket science lol, this thread should have been deleted after the first nonsensical post. (ie. the OP)


There is a difference between bad-mouthing a product or company and a legitimate complaint.
Deleting these posts just poured more fuel on the fire.
I assume Apple would know that.
Do you think the problem just magically disappears just because Apple deleted these posts?


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

I was going to wait for a price drop on the iPhone 3GS,
But I think I'll stick it out and see if there is going to be an iPhone 5 soon.

Maybe it'll have a non death grip grip to it.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

krs said:


> You lost me totally........
> 
> How does a comment like" "I just got this new iphone and it's dropping calls compared to my old one. Anyone else have a similar experience, what's going on?"
> 
> ...


Let me (try) to make it easy for you:



> Moderators for Apple's Support Discussions forums quickly deleted growing *threads discussing the Consumer Reports articles*. Though these threads are no longer viewable, you can read through cached versions via Bing.


Now go back to my message and read what Apple's boilerplate message says at the top of the forums:



> Our discussion forums are filled with thousands of Macintosh, iPod and iPhone users from around the world. *Search for an answer, post your question, or answer other users' questions in the Apple Discussions community*. If you need help using Discussions, check out the Help & Terms of Use link in the sidebar to the right.


Clear, now?

Notice there is no mention of sharing general product discussions about news, politics, links to other sites, etc.

ehMac ≠ Apple Discussion forums. Different rules, different criteria, different direction. End of story.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I see where you're coming from but I think you're making an assumption of why Apple deleted whatever they did.

I assumed that Apple had deleted these discussions about the Consumer Report articles but when I checked the Apple discussion site, it turns out that this isn't even true.
There is an 8-page long discussion with a 109 comments right here:
Apple - Support - Discussions - Consumer Reports CONFIRMS existence of ...
including links to the CR report.

In any case, even if Apple can somehow justify deleting any of this on their forum - doing that just makes the situation worse - Apple should know that.

PS - I just read the first set of posts in that Apple thread I linked to.
Wow - talk about people calling each other idiots and making derogatory remarks about other posters - a thread like that would be deleted on ehMac as well but for other reasons than discussing the CR findings. Sort of plays into their hands even if the REAL reason is because of the criticism of the product.

PPS: Turns out reading some more via google that the link I posted above is a new discussion on the same subject.
Once it's on the net the cat's out of the bag - no way to stuff it back in and make it go away.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

The truth is, Apple has for years had a bad habit of deleting lengthy threads based on a known flaw. Many of the flaws they tried to suppress, ended up becoming very serious ones that they ended up having to fix even out of warranty. I've reported a few problems in those and had apple delete my post. I got a rather terse email from them telling me that my post wasn't appropriate, when it was a very legitimate post about a very serious problem I had with a powerbook. I sure let Apple know about that...

Something tells me this is not a bogus problem. I've seen quite a number of people I know as acquaintances in the US with new iphone 4s reporting an awful lot of dropped calls. One guy I know returned it already.


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## iphoneottawa (Apr 21, 2010)

Just have to wait 'till Friday and see what Apple will say


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

krs said:


> You lost me totally........
> 
> How does a comment like" "I just got this new iphone and it's dropping calls compared to my old one. Anyone else have a similar experience, what's going on?"
> 
> ...


That's the thing, those kinds of posts aren't the ones getting deleted, just the "apple sucks" posts.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

*Quote of the Day*

From the Seeking Alpha forums:

News! iPhone 4 Camera Fails When Finger Covers Lens 

I tested the iPhone 4 camera function in a special idiot-proof isolation chamber. When placing my finger directly over the camera lens, the phone failed to take a good picture. Possible solutions to this problem:

1) Return the phone to Apple for a full refund since I am too stupid to own a Smartphone

2) Cover my finger with duct tape to remind me not to touch the camera lens

3) Buy a bumper for my fingers to keep them where they belong

4) Don't hold the phone that way


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## jakey (Jul 8, 2008)

I posted when I went to the apple store to get the cracked upper case and display bezel on my MacBook replaced. After I picked it up I had two dead pixels in the display screen. I wasn't accusing anybody but I was asking about the repair process and if the display is touched in any way.

The Apple Store in question took it back and replaced the display with no questions asked.

However, I got a notice that my thread was deleted. So yeah, they're pretty heavy-handed about what constitutes a legitimate thread in the support forums.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Elric said:


> That's the thing, those kinds of posts aren't the ones getting deleted, just the "apple sucks" posts.


bull. I never said apple sucks and had my posts deleted. Many people did, after making legitimate posts. Apple simply tried to suppress the level of 'noise' about an issue.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

You're only supposed to hold it and show it off. If it makes calls, that's a bonus!


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Elric said:


> That's the thing, those kinds of posts aren't the ones getting deleted, just the "apple sucks" posts.


Fair enough.......

I don't know which posts did actually get deleted because the links I found to the Bing cache that still had these deleted Apple discussion posts went nowhere.

Regardless - this will definitely show how astute Apple is with their dancing shoes, getting out of this PR mess.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

groovetube said:


> bull. I never said apple sucks and had my posts deleted. Many people did, after making legitimate posts. Apple simply tried to suppress the level of 'noise' about an issue.


I would have to hear about someone else's experience... no offence, but you being civil anywhere is still kinda hard to believe


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

google away. It has happened many, many times, and has been reported hundreds of times.


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## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm not sure why A pple would be defensive about Consumer Reports findings. It's not as if CR has any credibility in the first -place.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Elric said:


> I would have to hear about someone else's experience... no offence, but you being civil anywhere is still kinda hard to believe


it's happened to me as well actually. In a post about Santa Rosa MBP openGL issues in gaming. Call of Duty 2 to be exact.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

bsenka said:


> I'm not sure why A pple would be defensive about Consumer Reports findings. *It's not as if CR has any credibility in the first -place.*


Why do you say this?


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

CR is my bible when it comes to cars. Owner survey based results are more accurate then anything out there. Other review magazines sometimes have favourable opinions of products based on advertising contributions from certain manufacturers. I find CR is the most believable and credible out of all the review mags. 

Any case, apparently a software patch just came out for the signal fix and it makes a bit of a difference with how the bars are displayed during signal loss, however, dropped calls are still apparent when holding the phone a certain way. 

"Apparently", an Apple engineer advised against this antenna design early in the development stages because of signal loss concerns, but "apparently" Stevie went ahead with the design anyways because he liked it so much. 

We'll see what they say tomorrow...


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

MACinist said:


> "Apparently", an Apple engineer advised against this antenna design early in the development stages because of signal loss concerns, but "apparently" Stevie went ahead with the design anyways because he liked it so much.


Glad you included "Apparently"

I find that hard to believe.
If these signal loss issues had been recognized early in the development stages, Apple would have taken steps to adress this issue and still keep the physical design the way it is to make Steve happy.

I rather like the other scenario - first of all the FCC testing and probably a lot of Apple lab testing as well doesn't require the device to be actually held - it's just sitting on a test bench and if people used it during some early teststage, they were in such a strong RF environment that even with the antenna detuned they didn't loose calls.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

krs said:


> Glad you included "Apparently"
> 
> I find that hard to believe.
> If these signal loss issues had been recognized early in the development stages, Apple would have taken steps to adress this issue and still keep the physical design the way it is to make Steve happy.
> ...


True. If they were holding it in the real world with that faux-3GS cover they would have got a different result.


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