# Now, I know I hate American Ideals..



## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

American have always been outrageously religious for my tastes. 

How much money do they pour into these online evangelists every week?


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## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

I don't get it... why would they give him a week to think about it? If he doesn't believe now what is a week going to do?

Personally I don't see how anyone can be an atheist... it just doesn't add up.

Rick, if you don't believe in God then what DO you believe in?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Holy Pandora's box batman. What have I created when I opened this kitchen forum?  

I think being closed minded to any idea, principle or belief is dangerous. 

We're all on the same planet. We're all humans. That should be our main identity. 

We've all got our own ideas and beliefs as to our origins and "Why we are here." I'd like to think that there is some sort of ultimate truth and answer to that question. Until we have that answer and we know for sure, it'd be nice if everyone kept an open mind. 

I'm up for a lot of discussions in the Canadian Kitchen but if at all possible, let's not get into a discussion of the existance of God etc... Let's keep the Canadian Kitchen a little on the lighter side. Politics is friggin heavy enough as it is.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Mr Mayor that's the whole idea - AVOIDING dicussing difficult issues is part of why they ARE difficult. Youobviously haven't read the GTA post yet either.
The whole idea of this kind of forum is to actively and passionately discuss, observe and defend ideas and outlooks WITHOUT resorting to vitriol.

Keep it open, keep it civil - that's your role.
And get those damn emoticons back


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

I am also an athiest,
and in responce to Alesh, I believe there is some sort of Higher Power out there, but I refuse to call it "God". There are too many "God's" out there, with every different religion, and I will not say that one of them is the greater power (Too me, they are all the same, with different explanations for what he did and how he did it), but I don't believe I am closed minded.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ditto re aethiest - the universe is wonderful and marvelous enough without my having the gall to think that this little dust speck is anything more than an observation platform for a highly evolved primate.
There is enough wonder in the universe without appliqueing some humanoid on it as grand poobah.
That's the mayor's job after all.


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## RicktheChemist (Jul 18, 2001)

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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

RtC
AMEN BROTHA
LMAO


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

It is not "American ideals" that are out of line, it is the policy of the Boy Scouts. When I was a child (I was born and raised in New York City) we said the Pledge of Allegince which had the phrase "one nation under God". That was removed in the 1970's. American ideals are strong and worthy, it is the so called "ideals" of religious zealots that I fear. Add to this mix political zealots on the far right (or left) and you will see acts of kindness and honesty kicked out the door. Thus, it is not the American ideal that is to be blamed, but the corruption of this ideal.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Hey Dr. G glad to see back in the fray. Some hot topics in the ol Kitchen these days need more than a couple of viewpoints. I'd be interested in the Nfld view point on the national politic situation and your thoughts on the racial profiling issue going on in the GTA.

Anyways on topic, you are bang on about the Boy Scouts being the problem here. They say they are a "private organization" so are exempt from "dscrimination laws" but they surely get public funding either directly or indirectly.
I think underneath a lot of the hoopla there is a strong structure still residing in the US that wants the continuing separation of Church and State as the drafters of the Constitution wanted.

( This is a quote from Thomas Jefferson - American president, Author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat: "Deist, avid separationist. Question boldly even the existence of God. I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites. History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.")

I'm always amazed at how strong the public library and also public radio systems in the US are in keeping the zealots at bay..
People are welcome to their own beliefs..they are not welcome to impose them on me or especially my children. My kids will make up their own mind once their knowledge and intellect have matured enough to make balanced informed decisions.
I must admit the temporary insanity that prevailed in Kansas a couple years back boggled the mind. I thought Clarence Darrow put that argument to rest in the 30's.
Sometimes it's small steps, the PGA dropping courses from the tour where clubs discriminate ( Augusta being the notable exception regarding women members).
Sometimes it's the earthquake steps of thousands of American's heeding the call in the 60s and marching and sometimes dying for Civil Rights.
Remember for all the zealots on the religious end there strong well funded organizations like the ACLU. I certainly don't see that level of enforcement and support of Trudeau's Charter in Canada.


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## sniper (Mar 9, 2002)

i find organized religion to be both extremely fascinating and disturbing. i live in a christian household and community, so my observations on organized religion are mostly based on christianity.

i think christianity is laughable. it's completely understandable why so many people say they're christian if you ask them, yet if you were to actually question them on their beliefs they would clearly be nowhere near a true christian. it's extremely comforting to be christian. you're in the majority, everyone assumes you have proper christian morals, and you have a nice big book that explains everything there ever was. to quote the church lady, "how convenient!" yet, a true christian would say that no organism has ever evolved, dinosaurs never existed, earth has never been through an ice age, and i'm not even out of genesis yet.

if some christian out there would explain all of this to me, i would really appreciate it. i wish i was christian, in all seriousness. i've been there before and i'd like to back. i'm just not quite weak minded enough to have faith. so if you can make the bible not look like a 2000 year old jew's take on ancient mythology, let me know. i'd love to hear it.

p.s. all said above was said with complete sincerity. it is in no way sarcastic or meant to mock or offend christians or members of other organized religions.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

You know, Macdoc, I frequently disagree with your viewpoints on some of the subjects that we discuss here. But I always read them because, every now and then, I am blown away by the depth and breadth of the perception you have of the human condition. At those times I am left totally in awe, and completely dazzeled by what you have written. 

This last post was one of those rare moments. I am _totally_ impressed! You could be a philosopher (heck, in my mind you already _are_).

_OUTSTANDING!_


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt...I DO have a degree in Philosophy ( Eastern ) and English Lit ( modern) plus am blessed or cursed with a gift o' the gab. Off the charts in SATs. On top of that I was heading along with a couple of my cohorts towards a pure sciences degree probably in physics which both of them ended up in. So I have a scientist's mindset when it comes to cosmology and an ability to both understand the printed word and express myself. 
Now I was a 60s kid and bootstrapped myself out of a fundamentalist upbringing and gladly left that community far far behind but I have only too great an understanding of the that mindset and how dangerous it can be when they want to start to "convince" the rest of the world of the errors of it's ways.
In university and through voracious reading ( still a favourite activity) I was exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints. In literature and philosophy. I was helped to think and write clearly by the small classes of a very new university out to change the way people learned. With 8-12 people in a class you had to be involved and you got to match wits with profs very often...and on a few memorable occasions to prove them wrong. ( Final year in an Honours English Crit course the 7 person class had a great battle with the prof over the interpretation of "The Magus" - a seminal book for me and related to the illusions below - he finally admitted he was wrong.-)
One of the very best exposures was to our Eastern Philosophy prof - a top guy rarely seen out of India. Indian Vedic literature from thousands of years ago has terrific insights that are timeless.
One for me was understanding the illusion of "otherness" - that somehow the "self" is "other" than the universe the self observes. One of the neatest examples of the kind of thinking this promotes is shown by this ( and it explains a childs world wonderfully).
If you take a cob of corn and put a stick into it - it's a cob of corn with a stick. But if you continue to add sticks, black grains in a certain pattern at some point it becomes a doll. There is a transition in viewpoint from "corn" to "doll" that you can never quite pin down. That differentiation occurs only in our mind as does our separateness from the rest of the universe. Overcoming that illusion integrates the self into the universe ..into Oneness. If you concentrate on the tranistion point you can "switch" between the "dollness" and the "corn and sticks" and view them both at the same time..a useful exercise  This is where the easterners went way beyond Plato.
It's a journey to understanding and very different from the classical Western philosphers and it's served me well in relating to the world and societies. Differences are illusions WE create in our minds. The illusions of both individuals and societies change over a lifetime and over history.
"Women are property don'tcha know"
"Those _____ ___(fill in the blank) are subhuman"
"Only property owners may vote"
"Divine right of Kings"
"Market forces are perfect"
"Capitalism......
"Marxism....
"Castro should be arrested.........

Oh the list of our illusions goes on and on.
But it's just us on this tiny planet in an immense universe and the sooner we ALL realize we have ONLY ourselves to make the best or worst of our precious oasis in a very very hostile galaxy then many of the crazy "differences" will go away and we can get on with keeping the planet safe from our depredations and over population.

You know those phrenologists were on to somethin........
•••••••••

So MacNutt....accurate observation just from reading a few posts.

BTW the last line in "The Magus" is the most important "Nobody was watching"
It took us months to convice the prof that he had been fooled by one of the "illusions" in the Magus and missed the point of the last line which freed us all to create our own game. Good book, so so movie. If you liked the premise behind "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" you'll greatly the appreciate the more subtle but equally conscious altering Magus.

Sure would like those emoticons


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacDaddy:
*I am also an athiest,
and in responce to Alesh, I believe there is some sort of Higher Power out there, but I refuse to call it "God". There are too many "God's" out there, with every different religion, and I will not say that one of them is the greater power (Too me, they are all the same, with different explanations for what he did and how he did it), but I don't believe I am closed minded.*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think you are either. This feeling that there is something out there bigger than us, or something beyond death is closer to agnosticism though, which is where I am firmly entrenched.

I have great respect for religion, it has helped quite a few of my friends and family find a better way to live and a much happier life to live, but it has never been for me.

There are too many interpretations, too many twistings for it to any kind of appealing. 

The very fact that a religion that specifically states that other "People of the Book" should be treated as faithful, and treated as friends, can be interpreted by some men that every other religions group are evil, or that people kill in the name of a god that passed down a message explicitly forbidding killing simply dumbfounds me.

This article at theonion.com is good for a laugh, and bit of a reality check in some cases. It sums up my feelings on the matter as well.

--PB


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Cynical you are likely right that there is a gulf that cannot be eliminated but I figured Sniper could use a less stark adventure than jumping into the Existentalists. Yet despite the accurate description of the human condition Camus invokes... immobilized on his beach in total isolation..... even he steps back into the world.
Existentalism can be pretty bleak if you don't accept it serves to dramatically highlight the necessity to create our own reality and thus happiness.
It's interesting that you sigh ( correctly... I believe a shrug would do  about the French yet bring in Gandhi and to some degree Lennon who were active in changing worldviews for many. 
Cynical but with some hope for a better world????...close to the mark?
Differences add spice to the world. Toronto is admirable in promoting cultural contrasts for everyone to enjoy while trying to damp out the conflicts that can arise in a cultural clash.

Re Phenology..I was being sarcastic and humorous...another discredited illusion about on a par with crop circles these days.. wondered who might catch the reference  good eye and well read too.

You know it can be heavy but you've waded your way through it, others are just poking around the meme pile looking for a fit. The more knowledge, the less prospect of conflict imho and closer to your peacable world.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sniper ..you are one conflicted dude and I mean that in a positive way. 
You are smart enough ( and recognise this - in your "not weakminded enough comment) to question the fundamentals that conflict with your own observations of what makes sense in the world outside your environs.
Yet you also miss the comforting certainty and sense of community that arises from a common belief system and a community acting in harmony on those beliefs. Hey there are times in this hitech whirlwind I call a business that a monastery looks positively delighful.

But buddy you bit that infamous Apple and there is no going back from where you are right now .
You are out of the Garden for now and must wander the wilderness until one of two things happen.

You understand that the attractions of your community and it's beliefs have downsides for you that you are willing to live with. That belief is just that, belief without question and you accept it.
or
You explore other world views both religious and secular and find one that you are comfortable with and put your earlier life aside the same way we all do when Mum & Dad = Santa. Fond memories but something you've outgrown.

IF you explore the alternatives with an open mind and THEN go back and CHOOSE to be there you'll be a strong member of the community.
If you stay in with your doubts you'll hurt yourself most of all and your community as well.
Take a big dose of healthy skepticism with you when you go searching for worldviews. Many are convincing, many are flawed.
Right now you simply don't have enough perspective being enveloped as you are in a single community viewpoint. Read and cruise the web.

Here's a start that you might find interesting - the change in viewpoint of top scientists over the last century.
http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/news/file002.html 
This entire high profile community over generations asked similar questions to yours, and had the minds to search out many answers. More and more of them over time coming to a new conclusion. I find it fascinating that the biologists are the most convinced.

Teilhard de Chardin took the same journey you are on "charged by Rome" to defend the church in the scientific sphere he ends up banned by the church and showing up dogmatism on both sides of the argument. http://www2.gol.com/users/coynerhm/teilhard.html 
His is an interesting attempt to reconcile two apparently opposing views and the ebate continues.

Here's another link to someone imprtant in my worldview. Macnutt should appreciate her viewpoint since she escaped the "Revolution" barely with her life... and her hatred of it shows. http://www.aynrand.org/ 
This link can take you to others at the bottom that could keep you busy for several years!!! http://www.2think.org/ayn.shtml 
You'll quickly see you are not alone in your questions. Rand was a product of her times...but her celebration of the individual is an important concept.

It's interesting how those that first embraced then fled the Soviet headspace offer strong insights. Arthur Koestler is another influencefor me - his "Act of Creation" about creativity in humans is a monument. Combining his unique background in biology, psychiatry and philosophy he brings understanding to why we love poetry, songs and elegant mathematical solutions all in similar way. Well worth the effort http://orwell.ru/people/koestler/ 

Good luck, good journey..report in from time to time


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## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

Heavy and very interesting stuff in this thread.

Perhaps, I've read too many French philosophers but it seems that this is a world of unreconcilable difference. The very language we use is imperfect. However, it is by our very differences that we have to agree to disagree; we need to accept and comprimise and move forward. The either/or mentality is tired and limiting and yet I fear we may never be able to move beyond it. We don't need more hatred, guns and wars. 

Time to dig up John Lennon, Gandhi, and a few others and then bring them back.  

Macdoc: What was your passing reference to phrenology? Was that an allusion to an earlier post? Was it satirical or . . .?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, here in Newfoundland and Labrador, there is still a debate as to whether or not NF/Lab should have joined Confederation back in 1949. Sadly, we are a province that is being hit hard by outmigration. Things are going quite well in St. John's, but in the rural areas of the province most of the young people are leaving.

Re racial profiling, I am opposed to this practice. It fosters a stereotype and leads people to predetermine a person's character (and their likely actions) based on the color of their skin. Here in St. John's, the vast majority of the men and women of color are highly educated and probably at the university, as a professor or a grad student. The crime rate here in St.John's is so low that we lead the country in the least major crimes per capita. Tonight, it is a bit cool, but kids are all out trick or treating with no real fear of being hurt or molested. This is one reason why I have chosen to stay here in NF/Lab. for the past 25 years. I can walk to work to the university when I do have an on-campus course (although most of my courses are web courses, so I can teach from home, or wherever I can get an internet connection) and not be afraid of being mugged. Police are rarely seen on the streets of St.John's, and there seems to be a racial tolerance that I have not seen in the places I have lived in the US (e.g., New York City, Rochester, NY, Waycross, Georgia and Athens, Georgia). 

I am a believer in the views of both Jefferson and C.Darrow (I almost became a lawyer after I read his book "For the Defense"). I am a supporter of the Public Broadcasting System in the US, and was a member of the ACLU. I was a child when my mother took me on marches to "Ban the Bomb" and in support for civil rights in the 1950's. When I was a bit older, I marched peacefully against the war in Vietnam and became a conscientious objector. I was even able to convince my draft board of my sincerity of conviction and belief, which was based on moral and philosophical beliefs rather than religious beliefs.

I am proud to say that I am now both a Canadian and an American citizen. I support all that is good in the US, oppose all that is unjust there as well, and respect and love my adopted country of Canada. I am not a religious person, but I do believe that we should do good deeds each day for others, and focus upon helping to make the world a better place for all. Becoming a Canadian citizen required me to learn the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and to understand the responsibilities that all Canadians are to attempt to undertake. I still get a lump in my throat when I hear/sing both the Star Spangled Banner and/or O Canada. However, it is not "America/Canada -- love it or leave it!". For me, it is "America/Canada -- change it for the better or lose it!". And I still believe that we can become a government "of the people, by the people and for the people".

So endeth the sermon.


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## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

Macdoc: Your comments are accurate. I'm cynical and skeptical but I have a firmly entrenched belief that everyone can change the world (one person at a time). It's sad in my opinion that too many people seem to forget that it's the people you see everyday or the time you spend to volunteer in your community that can make a huge difference. Global views are important but missing what's in front of you is something too often done by crusaders and some fundraising organizations.

To digress. . . 
An English professor of mine once said: being agnostic is closer to being a true aetheist than aetheism itself. I can explain this if anyone likes. Though the rational of the sentence does make sense in a context, I can't say that I don't believe in some form of greater energy or meaning. I'm agnostic in the sense that I think most religions try their best to point us in the right direction.

The problem that arises with "organized" religion is that too often people read too literally and they don't read enough. Certain passages are singled out while others are ignored to further a political agenda. For instance, Bush the good Christian is forgetting the whole message of Jesus on the cross: revenge and violence only cause more of the same. The circle has to be broken. 

Again all I can do at the moment is *sigh* or *shrug my shoulders*.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

For an interesting primer, set in a fictional conext, please check out "Stranger in a stange land" by Robert A. Heinlein.

Read how a human born on Mars and raised by Martians returns to Earth and shares his views.

my $0.02


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## Vorvis (May 7, 2002)

"a true christian would say that no organism has ever evolved, dinosaurs never existed, earth has never been through an ice age, and i'm not even out of genesis yet.

if some christian out there would explain all of this to me, i would really appreciate it." 


SNIPER - I think I may have some of the answers you are looking for... well maybe not answers, but something to at least think about.

I'm not the Church Going Bible Thumper, but here are my thoughts, from studies and investigations. 

- Evolution was Created! 
- The Bible was written by many different people at many different points in time and collected into one volume to reveal similarities towards one beleif system. The problem is that some of it was written in a metaphoric mindset and some it in a literal view. Today's problem is when religious freaks demand that it's one or the other - usually "Literal". Therefore creating problems when phrases like the universe was created in 6 days and God rested on the 7th. 

Science says the it took billions of years to develop the Universe, which is complete contradiction to the Bible, but what if you translate the literal 6 days into six "periods of time", sort of like saying "Well in my father's 'day' they did things differently." 

Even the Bible states that one day is like a thousand years to God and a thousand years like a day, this is to show that literal TIME is basically irrelevant.

So the Ice Age, and Dinosaurs did exist just in a different period of time. There have been many Worlds on this planet than just what we humans now know of. Though there are some Christian Scientists who have found human remains in the same layers of earth as Dino bones, and are trying to say we existed at the same time.

The Bible also states that Angels were at one time permitted to live amoung humans and they created a race of Giants... The Missing Link Theory?!? I don't know! Forgive me I don't have the exact passages in front of me.

There is so much more to the world than what is contained between two book covers, reincarnation, out of body experiences, Remote Viewing, Ghosts...

Anyway gotta, we'll pick this up later!


Happy thinking.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Damn where is that applause emoticon when I need it. Twice in two days now.
MR MAYOR PLEEEASE.

Anyway well said and you certainly in a very short few lines made a good case for your home island.
I've always wondered about the Confederation deal. How big is Nfld compared to Britain I wonder....wow just looked it up. Nfld/Lab is 60% larger than Britain and about 10% larger than Japan. Yikes.
That certainly makes it a potential economic giant of the future especially if the globe warms even more than it has now. Nfld/Lab future and potential is a whole other topic I''d love to hear about.
Boy you are living breathing tribute to American ideals that were being questioned, you not only subsribe to a strong viewpoint but take action on it.. ACLU member.....kudus.

Your last paragraph is a good prescription for us all. Both countries are still evolving their societies and I was pleased a while back to hear that Canada was considered the first "post modern society"


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

That was applause for Dr. G - thread got busy while I was answering.
••••••
Cynical....yes individuals can make a huge difference for good or ill. Ghandi for one, King for another, Frank Lloyd Wright, in introducing new memes or through their personal power or charisma ( Shaka Zulu, Napoleon, Hitler and perhaps the greatest changer of civilization of all - Ghenghis Khan - if he hadn't died when the Huns were at the wall of Venice they would have swept right through Europe).

You really are an aetheist in the strict definition as you deny a higher power firmly. 
You simply are not anti-religious..giving others their own space and belief which is often the agnostic stance ......the agnostic says "I don't know but it's okay if you know"
Many religions can be effective NGOs but like any organizational scheme it is open to abuse especially with vulnerable populations like children. Tribalism was probably an effective evolutionary trait - comfort in a group - hey us Mac owners sure know that in a sea of WinDoze.
It's when religions start to proselytize or worse try to form governments and impose beliefs that the worst abuses occur.

But you DON'T shrug, you go out and volunteer, you are modest but effective.. the cyncism methinks shelters a tender heart.
••••••
Michael K glad to see you involved. The full version of Stranger was banned until recently.


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

A little perspective please.

Why should I join the Catholic Church and then complain that they make me go to confession?

If it is a requirement that I drink the blood of a virgin to join the local hunt club, I should not join if drinking blood offends me.

If professing a belief in God is needed for me to join or remain in an organization, why the hell would I want to stay if I don't share that belief system.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Alesh.
There are a couple of points you may want cleared up.

Let's start with an easy one.."is it not important to question science as well" ...you bet ..in fact that is the nature of science.. "to question". 
Scientific method requires questioning of assumptions. Science is a method not a belief structure. It MAY LEAD to an altered structure of beliefs as it did when Darwin postulated evolution.
As examples of historical questioning where scientific thought at the time was wrong - continental drift is a big one - thought to be ludicrous, now proven and accepted.
When you see "Theory" in conjunction with a term like evolution you may be inclined to think "maybe it's not true, or it could be all wrong.
Here is a link that will explain some things ..and he generally falls in your camp http://don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/definitions.html 
and here are lots of links and things explore http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser/evolution/education/default.htm 
Theories are "works in progress" that change and expand over time. Einstein's Theory of Relativity is a good case. Almost 100 years after his first paper it's still being confirmed and modified..it's still a theory and it's not complete. But as we know from atomic bombs, and nuclear reactors, and from every single experiment undertaken to confirm it.....it predicts correctly the behavior of space time and mass. E=mc2 is a functional equation that arose out of Einstein's questions about Newtonian physics.
Your computer is a result of the physics established by Einstein...tangible reality.

Just the same Evolutionary theory is a work in progress but it is eastablished and is the fundamental underlying modern medicine and is no way "unproven" ..it's just in the process of being refined as to it's mechanisms. Britannica has some good insights on this.

Religion is not a methodology although it may indeed be methodical.

Science asks for proof and encourages questioning of the status quo but does not draw moral conclusions from the results of any experiment. The experiment merely confirms or denies the thesis presented by the scientist.

Religions ask for belief without requiring proof, offer guidance to ways of living as a person and group and encourage adherence to the tenents developed over time. There are renegades in religion too. Luther for one, that overthrow the "old ways".
Here is a good definition
"Religion originates in an attempt to represent and order beliefs, feelings, imaginings and actions that arise in response to direct experience of the sacred and the spiritual. As this attempt expands in its formulation and elaboration, it becomes a process that creates meaning for itself on a sustaining basis, in terms of both its originating experiences and its own continuing responses. " http://www.darc.org/connelly/religion1.html 
There is lots more to read in the body of this article.

Note the emphasis on the sacred and spiritual. This is religion's domain, not science which deals with the physical world.

So throwing out evolution as a theory robs you of tools that are useful in working with the physical world.. tools that are proven to work. You HAVE your parents DNA.

Science in itself will not provide you with an ethical or moral framework by which you guide your way in the world. Religions provide this and often the parables intended to instruct are instead taken as a literal truth.
THEN comes the conflict with scientific observation.
The "teaching" is important to religions.
The accuracy of the observation to science.
YOU CAN have your religious beliefs and still embrace and use the tools science provides you with.

Religions predate scientific method and so offer cosmologies or explanations of the universe appropriate to the level of human knowledge at the time they were postulated.
The lessons religion offers may not change over time, human social interactions are similar age to age. When the cosmologies get dated but the lessons remain, doubt about the efficacies of the latter arises. So religions tend to resist change.....it's all or nothing.

What may be scaring you about science and evolution being so heavily emphasized in schools is that it doesn't deal with spiritual matters at all and that is a lack that you find very disturbing.

Over time modern societies have separated both the political and church domains and the public education and religious education domains.

Your weren't brainwashed, you are receiving the knowledge of the physical world inherited and refined since the written word allowed knowledge to be passed forward to future generation.
The average 15 year old today knows more, and is required to know and understand more than the leading thnkers achieved in a lifetime in past centuries.
With aethist parents, you, like my kids, were not exposed to the spiritual and sacred. You are at the point where you rightly should explore alternatives and your instincts are good
"its not a good idea to stay confined to one place or idea, your outlook remains limited and you will stagnate."
Always always keep that as your credo and you'll do well growing in understanding of both human societies and the physical universe we inhabit.

If you deny the understanding of the physical universe that the science community has struggled mightily to undertake and develop, then you do restrict yourself severely.
The Theory of Relativity, The Theory of Evolution, Theory of Gravity, Theory of Plate Tectonics, Quantum Theory are magnificent achievements of human thought and some underlie the computer you now work with and study and the health you enjoy.
Not one of those theories freed the slaves, helped Ghandi lead his country to independence or will decide for you how to treat your neighbor.
Take what religion has to offer in the spritual and ethical domain.
Don't rely on the divine to start your car on a cold morning if you left your lights on. 

Here is a good article you might enjoy http://www.artifacts.com/01introduction.html


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, no need for the applause. Each person's life needs to touch the lives of other living things in many ways if we are to survive here on earth. This is why I found your statement that "Tribalism was probably
an effective evolutionary trait - comfort in a group" most profound. At one point, human were quite insignificant in the total scheme of things here on earth. Safety in numbers leads to a unique form of group dynamic, and the need for a balance between individualism and the "social good". In this quest for safety, if there was/were no God/gods (I would have to declare myself as an agnostic if the truth be known) then people would surely need to create Him/Her/It. 

So, on this sunny Saturday morning, I shall go outside and plant some tulip bulbs. I did not create these bulbs, but I have the intellect to know when/where to plant them, the ability to anticipate their arrival next spring, and the appreciation to know the beauty they freely give to all who chance upon them. We shall see...........


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## sniper (Mar 9, 2002)

macdoc, thanks for the advise, but i'm gonna have to say "been there, done that". when i first abandoned my church, i abandoned organized religion. as i said before, i find religions to be fascinating, so i do know what most of them are aboot. as it stands right now, i don't want to be in any _organized_ religion. but i have found my spiritual niche, so i wouldn't say i'm wandeing the wilderness. what i was saying aboot going back was that in a perfect world, i would be an oblivious christian, similarly to how some homosexuals would say that in a perfect world, they would be straight. it's not that where i am isn't a good place, it's just that it's an easier life on the other side.

vorvis, you have some nice ideas, and i did give them a good mental chew, but they just don't hold up. to not take the bible literally, and to simply draw metaphors from it would open up a can of worms that would tear the entire religion apart. "well, what did they mean by god?"

alesh, to say that science and religion are the same thing and everyone just has to pick which one to trust is a little unfair. there's years and years of careful study and research that provide proven answers, and then there's a book some guy wrote thousands of years ago. don't get me wrong, the bible is a cool book; lot's of fun stories. but so is the great gatsby, and you don't see millions of people worshipping green lights.

i do applaud you, though, for staying true to your beliefs. too many people these days just believe in god because their parents do, but don't have any actual faith in the religion.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sniper
Excellent, spirtual niche is a good term, I think that's what Alesh is looking for or found lacking in the secular education. Good for you for having the courage to set you own game in place and make your mind up. As I've said elsewhere, once in a while a peaceful monastic life looks might fine.....from the outside.

I've always admired the Amish for such a "sustainable over generations" life style that stays close to the earth and their own community.

A lot of existentialists have been in your position, once you lose the innocence it can't be retrieved and that''s the underlying theme of Eden anyway. Indeed ignorance CAN be bliss but the real world has a nasty habit of intruding upon it ..that damn car just doesn't start on a cold morning without a full tank and good battery no matter how much wishful thinking, waving of incense, slaughtering of goats or abracadabras we apply.


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## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

Thanks Macdoc for the insightful comments and interesting links. And I am not denying "the understanding of the physical universe" I simply haven't seen enough evidence to satisfy myself to believe one thing or another or some combination of possibilities, and until I have I simply choose to undefine my beliefs in this matter so as to remain open to all the possibilities. To answer Sniper's comment: I did not say that religion and science are the same thing. What I really meant with the comment "In my view evolution is just another religion" is clearly explained (I think) above. Note the key words "In my view" and also note my statement that I am not yet decided on this topic (and may never be). So maybe a better phrase would have been "In my view evolution is LIKE another religion." And I only meant it in the sense that it provides an explanation of the origin of mankind as religions do. It was past my bedtime when I wrote that post









I also believe that in the end it doesn't REALLY matter how we came about so I am not in any rush to solidify these beliefs, the longer you stick with a belief the harder it is to modify or refute it down the road when new evidence is presented, after all we humans are stubborn beings. I figure I'll collect bits and pieces from here and there and maybe when I reach the age of 150 I will have finally figured out the origin of the universe









And just because I don't believe in evolution doesn't mean that I can't use my computer, or the other benefits of science... I love science! I just get a little wary every time I hear "millions and millions of years ago..." on Discovery channel and take it with a grain of salt


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

It's just as bad or maybe worse when science intrudes on religion's turf.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

That incident in the States could happen in Canada, so I wouldn't be too quick to slam Americans on this count.

And the solution to that problem here could well be the solution there.


In Canada any Group Sponsor is allowed to set membership requirements for their Beaver Colony, Cub Pack, Scout Troop or Venture Company.

The only hard and fast rule set by Scouts Canada is that each group must accept applications from girls who otherwise meet their requirements.

So a group sponsored by a church (any many groups are sponsored by churches) could refuse to accept members from outside their congregation, outside their denomination, outside their faith, or people who just don't believe in a surpreme being.

The solution, of course, is to join another group without those requirements.

I can't think of any group where I live that have any such requirements (I am a Cub Pack leader), but I have heard of at least two groups in southern Ontario with requirements.


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## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

Just a bit of a background:
I am a Christian, at least try to be as much as I can. I am 20 years old, studying computer science. Born in eastern Europe, both parents are atheists.

Here are my views...

I do not (necessarily) believe in evolution. In my view evolution is just another religion. However I do not know what happened in the beginning (for obvious reasons) and so I simply apply the wise words of my favourite philosopher Socrates and say "I do not know".
I do however believe in a creation, what I don't know about is how, when, and why.

Although I think I might have some idea about that last one... but thats a whole other story









Many times it was stated in this thread that it is important to question religion, the existence of God, etc... well is it not also important to question science as well?

There is one more thing I would like to mention, and that is the following:
Growing up all I ever read about in grade school was evolution, and I even went to a Catholic school at that. Up until maybe 4 years ago I assumed that the theory of evolution was true, the idea of anything else had never even entered my mind i.e. I was completely brain washed. I hope that I was not the norm in this. I think that this is VERY dangerous and scary, does anyone else find this a bit scary too? I just think that the media, and schools etc. are taking it too far. The same goes for other religions too, its not a good idea to stay confined to one place or idea, your outlook remains limited and you will stagnate.


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## sniper (Mar 9, 2002)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by macdoc:
*It's just as bad or maybe worse when science intrudes on religion's turf.*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so darwin publishing his theory of evolution was bad? please explain.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

No Darwin was publishing a scientific treatise not developing a new paradigm for human behaviour and group dynamics say like the Mormon founder.

It's when a dictator takes something like "survival of fittess..a scientific observation of animal and human behavior" and extrapolates "superior race", or a justification for war " etc. Those are moral and ethical issues.
There is no question Darwin's Theory impacted religion and belief - but it was not why he published. He made a monumental discovery about the natural world the ramifications of which humans are still exploring and understanding.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

If there is a God, and He/She/It is dead, then He/She/It laughed to death seeing what a mess we humans have made of this earth.

Ode to an Agnostic

Poems are made by fools like me,
but only God can make a tree.

And only God that makes a tree, 
also makes a fool like me.

But only fools like me you see
can make a God that makes a tree.


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## Alesh (Dec 10, 2001)

Dr. G

I love your poem! LOL
You make that up?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Joyce Kilmer according to Google. Nice twist and a LARGE grain of truth.

Interestingly much Eastern thought includes Gods being "brought into being" by men.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Alesh, the first two lines of the poem are, as Macdoc states, from the last two lines from the poem "Trees" by Kilmer. The rest nearly got me expelled in high school. And, as Macdoc also has said, there is much to learn from Eastern beliefs. Being born Jewish, I have a certain amount of "baggage" that burdens me in my search for my personal truth. There are aspect of the Jewish faith that I can freely practice (e.g., the doing of "mitzvahs" or good deeds), but the actual daily religious rituals of the established faith is more difficult for me to practice. Others are free to do as they wish, regardless of their beliefs, so long as these beliefs do not entail the killing of others in the name of their faith. If there is a God, He/She/It lies within us and needs to be seen on a variety of levels and from differing perspectives. As we add to our background of knowledge and experiences, we view things differently. In a way, we have many lives -- the ones we learn with, and those we live with as we attempt to finalize this learning (which, I feel, is never fully attained). Still, striving for this knowledge is what keeps me going, rather than the final attainment.

So endeth this sermon. No need to pass around a collection plate. As you enter this place of worship, throw all your money up in to the air. What God wants, He/She/It shall take, and let the rest fall back to earth for you to help someone else who is less well off than you are at this moment in time.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

NOW I know why the rest never showed....very clever and seamless. Count me foxed.

Toynbee described the Jewish culture/religion as one of the strongest and most enduring and he attributed much of the strength to the diaspora and the lack of homeland that resulted. The culture had no anchor other than its people and grew strong engaging with other often hostile cultures around it but staying close to its roots through ritual and strong community self-support.

Interesting observation and one wonders what the next thousand years will bring now that Israel is the homeland once more. Certinaly the engagement with hostile cultures hasn't ended yet.

Judaism always had my respect over proselytizing Christian sects because it stayed self contained and self content/
"This is what we beleive, you are welcome to join but if you join you must learn, accept and abide by our laws and beliefs that have sustained us as a community for thousands of years.
We don' t mind if you believe differently, just leave us to our faith and practices without interference."
That kind of approach I find comfortable.

Getting blasted by the Baptists ( amongst others) on radio and TV in the "my way or HELL" mode gets my back up something fierce.

shalom aleichem Dr. G....my respect grows,


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, wisdom is also a virtue. This is why education is stressed so much in the Jewish faith. Sadly, even Judiasm has its zealots who feel that this is THE faith, and must be abided to the letter of the law. This is where I part company with organized religions. Personally, I would rather choose to believe in what I want to do to live the "moral life", and to practice it in a way that is consistent with my personal code of ethics. "As I would not be a slave, so too I would not be a slave owner."

There is an old Yiddish saying that "When you come to the end of what you should be, you will be at the beginning of what you shall become."

Peace be with you too, Macdoc.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yes that's central theme of the Magus which our lit prof had miscalled. basically that we are each responsible to create the rules for our own game...hence the final line : "No one was watching."
The implication being that within the characters self lay the judgement as to how to live his life...it was not any outside agency that would determine or evaluate a life lived..only himself.
Similar to your saying..... early inthe Magus is the phrase which is a neat summary of wisdom
"You will return from whence you came and know it for the very first time"

Wisdom I think gives scholars fits. It's not education because the uneducated like my father, a Depression kid, can be wise.
It often comes with age as early illusions are shed and the common threads within any human lifetime become more visible.
Perhaps it's perspective....a hard term to define...... wisdom.
Mandela I believe is a wise man both in thought and deed.
Now Bush on the other hand...........

Well that's a whole OTHER topic


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, may we all be wise enough to know what to do with wisdom when/if we find it in our search for the truths about Life. This is why I dislike organized religion -- each professes to have a claim upon The Truth. For me, there are various truths out there, waiting to be seen in a personal perspective. For some, it is the truth that nature is beautiful and needs to be protected. For others, it is that money is the end result of a well-lived life. However, when politicians/kings/queens/dictators send young men and women off to fight because "we have God on OUR side", that is when I can only sit and wonder. Such is Life.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I think that we should award Macdoc with the first EhMacLand Award for the Renaissance Person of the Year for Eclectic Thoughts and Deeds (EARPyYETaDs -- which will henceforth be pronounced "Ear/pie/yee/tads", which is the sound that my standard wirehaired dachshunds make when you step on their tail). Kudos Macdoc on this award. I would send it to you except that in the ultimate wisdom of Canada Post, the NF that once stood for Newfoundland has now been changed to NL, to reflect the new name of our province (which is now Newfoundland and Labrador). Sadly, NL is also the designation for the Netherlands, so the award, which was handcrafted by an Inuit carver, was sent to St. John's from Nain, Labrador............by way of Amsterdam. So, it should arrive someday soon.........maybe by the time the snow melts and my spring bulbs reappear once again in my garder. We shall see.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"Aw gee shucks......uuuuh thanks"

Goofy 
circa 1960


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, not quite the acceptance speech we were expecting from one as eclectic as you, but it beats the speech made by Gen. Sherman re the American presidency -- "If nominated, I shall not run. If elected, I shall not serve."


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I'm never quite sure Dr. G just how firmly that silver tongue of yours is stuck in your cheek....your modified poem has now got me checking things twice 

A true renaissance type would be able to

a) play a musical instrument .....my attempts have been futile and nerve damaging to those I've inflicted it on

b) build a cathedral, or palace or at least a house - I hired a guy to build my prefab shed in the backyard

c) speak at least one other language - just as succcessful as my musical attempts

d) overthrow the established order of things which I suppose as a Mac advocate from day one has a semblence of truth. 

amongst other talents - perhaps oil painting which I have yet to try but have not yet had the courage to write off a room in the house ( I'm not the most organized type as those who have visited will attest but it IS an interesting house.)

An Inuit carving even as a symbolic ehMac award that still stays with you is very appropriate for verious categories.

How about the annual SoapStone ehMac awards. Every holiday season say December when most are giddy anyway we vote on a couple categories.

The First Canadian Soapy Awards

perhaps each recipient gets a special icon to use online for a year.

Funniest

Worst Speller

Best Tech Advice

etc
maybe 5 or 6 categories and we'll use a digital picture of your carving as the award logo.
Keep it light and fun but also a small reward for those that put time and effort into it.
Certainly a Founder's Soapy for the Mayor.

What think you?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Oh yeah I would use Sherman's speech to exempt myself as I do have a vested commercial interest in a strong Canadian Mac forum so that in itself is reward and incentive to contribute.
I think the awards should go to those true volunteers like Gord Guide for the tech award, MacNutt for something for sure as he sure spends time and effort and others. Set aside 2 weeks for voting in the category so it catches the casual visitors. Could be fun.

Perhaps you could chair the awards as the eminence grise of ehMac.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, your intellect alone, and your dedication to the cause of helping us to be free from the chains of Wintel, should qualify you for the award.

Sadly, my two doxies fought over the award, which arrived this afternoon (Canada Post delivers on Sunday here in St. John's...something to do with being a half hour ahead of the rest of the country)...and this is all that is left of this award.  

How do you add a picture on this posting? I have the picture on my hard drive and can't seem to see the way to add such an attachment.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, I would want to compete for the funniest category, so I won't be able to judge.

Keeping in the tone and mood of this strand, here is a story of a women and son and their day at the beach.........and their encounter with God.

A woman and her son were spending a fine day at the sea shore here in Newfoundland. Suddenly, a rip tide washed up on to the shore and dragged the boy in to the cold waters of the North Atlantic. The mother, frantic, dropped down on her knees and begged God to have mercy on her son. The woman was a good person, who helped the poor and homeless, so God took mercy upon her. Another giant wave washed up on to the beach, depositing the boy at the feet of his mother. The woman took the boy in her arms and hugged him deeply. Then, looking heavenward, the woman was heard to say,
"He had a hat!"


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## Cynical Critic (Sep 2, 2002)

A friend of mine who is Jewish (and was once a practicing Rabbi) commented that those with no religious beliefs often substitute something else for their belief. For instance, work or politics. The latter is scary in my opinion because the morals and ethics in politics are pretty flimsy.

Money and power - oh my!

Any thoughts? Comments? Suppositions of political doctrine or dogma?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Dr. G excellent joke - that's another renaissance trait I lack, telling a good joke and/or public speaking.

Anyways - okay if you want to participate then perhaps we should
a) figure out the categories
b) ask for nominations
c) figure out some voting method not open to net abuse 

BUT first get the Mayor's approval.

Cynical....I think the Internet bubble that we are just getting past smacks of the best of religious hysteria, unearthly expectations and cynical ( sorry it's the right word) manipulation to put any tent preacher to shame.
So yes perhaps that was a substitution, it was easy to talk about the rewards in the next life whe there wasn't much to be had in this life.
This last five years simply promised heaven at 55 - moving things up quite a bit but unfortunately also failing to deliver. 
•••••••••••
Let's go bug the mayor..... I think the Soapies is a fun project. 
Shall we start a separate thread??
Anybody organized one othese things before??


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, actually I tell a joke far better than it sounds when utilizing the written word. I use my New York Jewish accent for this joke, along with all of the body language that helps to convey the punch line. My students actually demand that I tell at least one story/joke in each class, since I utilize such expressions to make a point. My mother said that I should have been born earlier, in that I would have been great in vaudeville. I was brought up on Milton Bearl, Sid Caesar, Ernie Kovacs, et al, and fine tuned my "craft" on my relatives. I never tell jokes or stories that are hurtful in any manner, and if there is a "butt" of the joke, I make it myself who is the "stupid one". Teaching web courses for most of my load makes it difficult to convey this form or humor, which is why I enjoy on-campus courses.

I am amazed at how diverse this thread has become since the initial entry re "American ideals".


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Now I see why the funny award is in your court.  
Certainly the delivery is critical - Billy Crystal I just love, a quirk of his mouth can get an audience in stitches. I watch the Academy awards when he's the host mostly just to get a few hours of him.

I enjoyed Jack Benny as a kid on Ed Sullivan and Groucho Marx with his own show was great...with eyebrows like those and a big stogie you could see the silent era hangover.
I tend to like subtle humour instead of slapstick, some of the Biritsh stuff is great but I never did enjoy Monty Python altho Cleese himself has been wonderful at times....in small doses.
The kind of dialogue between Princess Leia and Hans Solo in Star Wars, Sean Connery and Harrison Ford in Raiders, Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid, Bruce Willis has a surpising talent for humour in the midst of mayhem... that I like best.
Tom Hanks I find very good - his performance in Big as a 10 year old with an adult body was terrific.  
I can't stand a lot of the current stuff like Beavis and Butthead, South Park and even the Simpsons and movies like Scary Movie - just a total non-starter for me.  

Anyway threads tangle and curl and weave strange tapestries...the name is appropriate.

How about a ehMac awards thread on it's own - I think that's worth doing.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

You have my full blessing to do the Soapy awards... Take it away Macdoc. Although, I win hands down for worst spelling! 

Other awards that might be entertaining:
- Longest paragraph without a carriage return
- Best product review
- Highest donation to ehMac
- Ok.. I'm drawing a blank now.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, the et al included the likes of Jack Benny,Groucho Marx, Phil Silvers, Bill Cosby, the Smothers brothers, et al, et al. Humor is the one thing that helps keep Life in perspective. The yin/yang helps a person achieve a sense of balance and harmony, which is truly needed by many today. Still, this sense of inner peace and tranquility comes only from self discovery, and that is a path along terra incognita. 

My wife has nicknamed me The King of Korn, so the humor comes with the territory.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Okay lets start a new thread about the awards in Town Hall cuz I think more people start there.
http://www.emo.spacespider.net/cool13.gif 

Just trying to see if this emoticon works.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, tell me how to attach a photo from my hard drive on to these posts and I shall show you what is left of your original award after my two doxies got to it.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You'll have to ask our esteemed mayor I don't know either.....and am interested.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

You can't attach a photo from your hard drive. You can however, insert a photo that is residing on a web server. To do that, you have to know the "Absolute URL." For instance, the absolute url for the picture of ehMax in the top left hand corner of this window is

```

```
I can use the "Image" button (that is to the right of all the emoticons) to insert the image like so:











So yeah, the image has to be on a web server already. Maybe I'll make a little quicktime movie on how to do it.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

ehMax, thanks for the info. Sadly, the picture is on my hard drive. Still, if I can find someway to place it on some server, I shall take your advice. Still, maybe it is best left unseen, in that to see Macdoc's award treated as only two dachshunds can treat something would only bring tears to his eyes (you should see what they do to a badger that is twice their size!!). C'est la vie.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

If you email the picture to me at [email protected], I'll post it for you.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Merci beaucoups, ehMac. Service with a smile is a fine policy. I am still trying to find the picture of the original carving and will send you that when I find it on my hard drive (how I long for iPhoto). Until then, you will see what they did to this carving from a whale bone.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

A postscript to the original posting by RicktheChemist re the person in the Boy Scouts who was unwilling to declare a faith for a higher being -- he was thrown out of the Scouts the other day. With the Republican landslide in various elections in the US, making it a Republican controlled White House, Congress and most states with a Republican governor, I am glad that I am a Canadian citizen living in Canada. I am still proud to also be an American citizen, but I believe in various American ideals that are now being pushed aside for a right-of-center Republican agenda.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Boy how to revive a topic -  a republican US end to end   
Anyone want to research when this last happened - why do I think just prior to FDR having to clean up the mess after the Great Depression.


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## Fox (Oct 4, 2002)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>With the Republican landslide in various elections in the US, making it a Republican controlled White House, Congress and most states with a Republican governor, I am glad that I am a Canadian citizen living in Canada. I am still proud to also be an American citizen, but I believe in various American ideals that are now being pushed aside for a right-of-center Republican agenda. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I partly agree with you, Dr. G. I am also glad to be a Canadian living in Canada, but like you, I'm a Dual Citizen. What's going on down there is scary. And right now I'm not proud at all to be an American. I hope this changes in two years when Bush is back up for re-election.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Fox, I was born and raised in New York City. I came to Canada in 1977 to teach at Memorial University of Newfoundland, in St. John's, NL. I became a Canadian citizen on July 1, 1998. I was not forced out of the country, nor did I come to Canada because of the draft. America still represents the possibility that all things are possible. I can try and become president, but I can't even hold certain jobs in the federal government because I won't swear allegience to the queen. I too am fearful about what Bush might do, but America will survive his presidency. We shall see.


Macdoc, FDR and LBJ are the only two presidents to have controlled Congress in the mid-term elections. Sadly, Johnson used it to scrap his Great Society and get America deeper into the war in Vietnam.


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