# Permit to finish basement?



## mar2007 (Oct 13, 2007)

I'm planning on buying a home but the basement isn't finished. The owner started to, he has drywall all around the four basement walls. And he has the one room framed. 

I finished a basement with my dad about 4 years ago. And i still remember quite a bit. I'm not sure if he had a permit. 

I was talking about how i would like to have a project to do during the summer. And my friend from work thought i might need a permit. Now i was wondering do i need a permit to build? Even if i need one but dont get one, would it not come back to bite me in the back? I live in Quebec city

Advice?


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

If you get a permit you'll also require inspections (electrical, plumbing, etc.) since the previous owner already closed off the walls with drywall the inspector could make you tare it down. 

My advice, cary on...on your own and be vewy, vewy quiet.


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## mar2007 (Oct 13, 2007)

Im not planning on doing the electrical and plumbing because i dont feel comfortable enough to do them, only the framing and drywall and floor

But what do you mean very quiet? How much trouble can i get if someone sees me?


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I was joking.  

Everyone does their basements, no worries.


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## johnnyspade (Aug 24, 2007)

kps said:


> If you get a permit you'll also require inspections (electrical, plumbing, etc.) since the previous owner already closed off the walls with drywall the inspector could make you tare it down.
> 
> My advice, cary on...on your own and be vewy, vewy quiet.


Here's the possible issue with this though, and I say "possible" because it would depend on regulations in your area so you'll want to check it out.

If you do renovations without permits, the space you are renovating may not be considered legal. This is important when you go to sell it later as technically that finished basement wouldn't be worth any more than one that's unfinished. It would also be a problem if you decided to rent out that space later.


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## johnnyspade (Aug 24, 2007)

mar2007 said:


> Im not planning on doing the electrical and plumbing because i dont feel comfortable enough to do them, only the framing and drywall and floor
> 
> But what do you mean very quiet? How much trouble can i get if someone sees me?


If the electrical and plumbing aren't done yet then you'll definitely need permits as you want those things inspected. No reputable company that does this work is going to work without inspections anyway. Besides, inspections are your friend. How do you know the work has been done correctly otherwise?

If the electrical is done without a permit, and your house burns down as a result of the faulty electrical work, your insurance company won't give up a cent. While the chance of this happening may be remote, it's risky.


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## chasMac (Jul 29, 2008)

In Alberta, it has to be inspected (I'm sure the rest of Canada is similar in this regard). Before finishing a basement, go to the city hall website and do a search for regulations re basement renos, and follow it to a T. If not and the inspection is not approved you'll find yourself tearing out wiring, etc. 

Case in point: finished our basement, had it inspected and learnt that the door leading to the furnace room was too small according to City of Calgary regulations. You'll appreciate that was a pain in the ass to rectify.


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## rustamanyana (Sep 22, 2008)

you'll have to look into the local building codes. 

based on the current housing climate, i think that it would be a justifiable bargaining point to ask for less if additions or renovations did not conform to the local building code.

in my area, the only thing the local municipality is concerned about are renovations where the basement will include a sleeping area.

it may also affect your property taxes.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

We own a construction company.

The biggest issue that you have is you don't know if the previous owner altered any electrical/plumbing fixtures before installing the drywall. Since the drywall is completed but no final wall coverings, you could inspect by removing one or two to expose the electrical/plumbing. Then contact a couple of the reputable trades to come in to give you quotes (quotes are free). They can inform you whether you need permits. Get this in writing! Just remember, any alterations to electrical (other than changing a plug) and plumbing require permits. These trades are certified and they sign their work and never work without permits unless there's no alterations. The onus is on you the homeowner.
Be careful.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

johnnyspade said:


> If the electrical is done without a permit, and your house burns down as a result of the faulty electrical work, your insurance company won't give up a cent. While the chance of this happening may be remote, it's risky.


Good point, remember insurance companies are in the business of collecting premiums. They are quite willing to spend a couple of thousand to investigate and possibly avoid paying a big claim.beejacon


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

kps said:


> If you get a permit you'll also require inspections (electrical, plumbing, etc.) since the previous owner already closed off the walls with drywall the inspector could make you tare it down.
> 
> My advice, cary on...on your own and be vewy, vewy quiet.


+1

Go for it. I believe the words are 'substantial and material change' (at least around here) - obviously open to interpretation

We completely gutted and renovated the oldest portion of our house and had a huge dumpster in the yard..... The local inspector came by and the contractor said 'no substantial or material change' and that was that...... Not sure what they thought was in the dumpster but nothing transpired...

Obviously YMMV..


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

> We completely gutted and renovated the oldest portion of our house and had a huge dumpster in the yard..... The local inspector came by and the contractor said 'no substantial or material change' and that was that...... Not sure what they thought was in the dumpster but nothing transpired...


That's true, the inspector can't come in unless he's invited by the homeowner. But however if it's in plain view such as an addition or deck then he can make your life difficult. If the homeowner gets a permit for electrical rewiring, then his ass is protected. If the wiring is pre-existing (before he purchased the house) and he didn't do any renos other than changing and/or adding the final wall coverings, he should be OK. If he wants to add rooms, there will be electrical work involved. Then he should get a qualified and certified electrician. A permit will keep him honest! No permits=shortcuts.

Again the onus is on the homeowner to keep things above board. He is the general contractor and all the responsibility is his. You just hope that the contractors will do things right. Do your homework!


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I really don't think you need a permit (even in Quebec City) to throw up a few sheets of drywall on an unfinished wall, especially if you're not going to mess with plumbing and electrical. You're basically "redecorating"...get it?

As far as the insurance not paying issue is concerned, you purchased the house in good faith, if there is any issue with the electrical it's a pre-existing condition and they would pay.


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## mar2007 (Oct 13, 2007)

kps said:


> I really don't think you need a permit (even in Quebec City) to throw up a few sheets of drywall on an unfinished wall, especially if you're not going to mess with plumbing and electrical. You're basically "redecorating"...get it?
> 
> As far as the insurance not paying issue is concerned, you purchased the house in good faith, if there is any issue with the electrical it's a pre-existing condition and they would pay.



the walls arent even started,(except one room) i have to frame the whole basement, make a plan on where to put other rooms in


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

mar2007 said:


> the walls arent even started,(except one room) i have to frame the whole basement, make a plan on where to put other rooms in


I guess I misunderstood then. Your original post seemed to indicate all was done except one room. Sounds like a bigger job which may involve electrical if not plumbing if you intend on building a bathroom down there.


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## mar2007 (Oct 13, 2007)

No u read it right. The basement walls are framed and drywalled, and one room is started framed, but id like to add another room and a bathroom


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

mar2007 said:


> No u read it right. The basement walls are framed and drywalled, and one room is started framed, but id like to add another room and a bathroom


I hope you have bathroom rough-in down there, otherwise you're looking at a major plumbing job. As in busting out the basement floor and tying into the main drain. Not to mention vents, a fan, GFI outlets or breakers, etc.

Sounds like you need to consult with a pro...permit or no permit.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

You are going to need permits. End of story. 

If you choose not to get them, it's your ass on the line if there is a problem.

Any room you create requires electricity. Electrical work requires a permit. If you have a bathroom, it requires plumbing. Plumbing requires a permit. You might have to get into HVAC; you aren't adding more space but you might want to heat some of the rooms. Adding ducts to an existing system requires evaluation for proper air flow.

The walls that have been put up already should be checked for proper construction, insulation and vapour barriers. Improper construction and vapour barrier could lead to moisture problems which, in turn, can lead to mold.

Seriously, do it right.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

When in doubt, just ask yourself: what would Mike Holmes do?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

It astounds me that anyone would consider taking risks with their home and family's safety over the price of a permit, or the added cost and peace of mind of having the work inspected.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

Would you want Joe Blow to take your computer apart to install any critical parts? Noooooo! 
You would get a techie to do this.

So get a couple of quotes from the pros for your basement! Protect your hard earn dollars and your sanity!


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

sharonmac09 said:


> Would you want Joe Blow to take your computer apart to install any critical parts? Noooooo!
> You would get a techie to do this.
> 
> So get a couple of quotes from the pros for your basement! Protect your hard earn dollars and your sanity!


I wouldn't say you can't do the work yourself, but you do need permits and proper review/planning.

Electrical wiring isn't difficult. Proper plumbing is a bit more difficult. Building walls isn't hard but it's harder to do right. There are lots of little things to keep in mind but with a bit of research and learning you can do it and maybe even have fun.

I did the electrical work for our cottage (larger than our house). Full permits and inspections. Didn't know squat about wiring before I started but did my homework (some of the Home Depot books are great) and passed the inspections without a single issue. Insulation and vapour barrier were easy. Had a plumber do his thing but should have done it myself as he did a crappy job (and he's a respected, reputable guy). 

It's your house, you love it far more than any contractor. Use this as a learning experience and take your time. Just do it right which includes learning about/getting permits.


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## sharonmac09 (Apr 10, 2009)

What Macified indicated above I couldn't improve upon.

Very well said.

Go for it if you can do it yourself but do what Macified said and get full permits and inspections. You can still save your ass.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Also, replacing wiring that is already in place is a little different than starting from scratch. I fixed all kinds of wiring in our old house that had been done according to code in 1968, but no longer met the code for today. No permits, but I made sure to do an excellent job and follow the electrical code to the letter. This included re-running proper wiring to all kitchen outlets to make sure they were split-duplex receptacles, which also used up twice as many strips on the panel. Running new wires behind finished walls was a little tricky, but I wanted it done right, including an outlet for an over-the-range microwave oven.

When we upgraded our actual electrical service to the house, I hired an electrician to do it right which included an inspection. Cost me over two grand, but that inspection sticker counts for a lot when you come to sell your place, I discovered. If you plan on doing any work yourself, just make sure you do your homework and do it right. When in doubt, get professional help. And follow the code to the letter.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Our house is done with Aluminum wiring on the upper floor and copper in the finished basement, added later, but before we bought the house. I am no fan of Aluminum wiring and I watch it closely.

About 10 years back, I noticed some blackening on a receptacle in the living room. Upon removing the cover plate, it was clear it had been "arcing" for some time.

I called in a pro and had him take a look. He immediately suggested that we "pigtail" the entire upper floor with copper to avoid this happening in the future. Pigtailing consists of adding a few inches of copper wire to the aluminum, properly fused together, then connecting the copper to all of the receptacles and lighting outlets.

At the same time, her replaced the entire service box and rewired it as well by pigtailing the Aluminum to the breakers themselves. We've not had a problem since. If I recall, I think it cost us about $2,000 back then for the whole thing, but worth every dime.

If you have an older home with Aluminum wiring, this is something to consider as unlike copper, time is the enemy of Aluminum wire.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

First of all, if there is water or electricity or gas involved, it needs to have a permit, and the work has to be signed off by a genuine electrician, gas fitter, or plumber.

That does not mean you can't do the work yourself. It means the licensed professional has to be hired (buddies, with the proper qualifications, are OK, but permits cost him money and he's on the hook if something is not done right) and that person has to agree to inspect your work, will probably tell you exactly what he wants to see you do and how, and will do the minimum hookups that only he can do.

There is an expectation you are handy enough to do the work at the proscribed level. Then he signs off on the permit. Don't expect non-buddies to agree to this, by the way. All risk and no reward for them.

Because all permits (at least here) are checked against the work contractors do, they take them seriously. You yourself cannot buy a gas appliance in Saskatchewan ... a licensed gas fitter must show the permit before the retailer will take your money.

My plumber forgot to file for a permit on a (propane) furnace install (it was a huge project; he somehow missed the one when he did his paperwork, but of course the work was done properly) and three years later, he gets the letter. $3,000 fine for failing to file a permit (he pays, not you).

So, yeah, they take it seriously.

Inspections are somewhat different, but related. If you are in a city, you can make repairs to existing structures usually without a building permit and inspection. Electrical, etc work still requires the same permits as before, and a licensed pro can sign off on the permit without much more involved.

But, if there is any material change, an addition, etc you are supposed to get the building permit from the city. The building permit (which is different from the other permits above) are really no big deal to anyone who does proper work. The inspection follows the issuing of the permit.

The building inspector is your friend, and a good relationship with him will save you money and time, anywhere from a little bit to the entire value of your house, depending on what life has in store for you. Be nice.

The permits themselves are usually not expensive, and the information they want to see any reasonably planned renovation will have. They are not asking for blueprints, usually, but they want a sketch with dimensions of the work you're doing, that kind of thing.

The main reason people don't want to get building permits is because it will raise the value they use to calculate your taxes. That I can understand and sympathize with.

The second most common reason is the work wouldn't pass inspection, isn't allowed, or is a fix that won't fix the problem. You really don't want those reasons in your home. The price could go beyond mere money.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

In Calgary there is/was a third reason. DELAYS. I know of one individual that it took the city 2 years to rubber stamp a permit to build a garage. That was just to get the permit.

Hopefully the current slowdown has resolved this issue.beejacon


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

eMacMan said:


> In Calgary there is/was a third reason. DELAYS. I know of one individual that it took the city 2 years to rubber stamp a permit to build a garage. That was just to get the permit.
> 
> Hopefully the current slowdown has resolved this issue.beejacon


Seems like a long time but a garage has an impact on the neighborhood. Any internal work has no impact on the neighbors and isn't a big deal.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Macified said:


> Seems like a long time but a garage has an impact on the neighborhood. Any internal work has no impact on the neighbors and isn't a big deal.


Actually the neighbours had no problems and no site-lines were compromised. Big problem seemed to be that it was oversized to accommodate an RV. Residential passed it along to commercial cause of the size who then passed it back because it was residential. They played ping pong for two years. Still even a normal non-reno permit was taking 6-12 months at that time.


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