# Quite a day on ehMac!



## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

I have noticed, as of late, the growing animosity of content on this site in many aspects, from the classified section comments to the political threads- even sometimes the 'no, dum-dum'ing in the troubleshooting threads. Today was the capper for me, I think. I have seen more name calling, trolling and oversensitivity on this one day than I thought imaginable for what I thought was a really cool place to 'hang out', and learn some things. If this is the way things continue, Well...I don't know what to say...
James


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## 32bitJesus (Jun 3, 2003)

I've never been threatened before until today. I hope all of this is resolved and that we can move on. EhMac is too good for this kind of drama.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

I'm glad you feel the same way I do, thejst. I've been without a modem for a couple of days, and when I returned I found a definite atmosphere to several posts.

Odd.

One poster in particular seems to be quite rabid. Doesn't spoil ehMac for me, 
though, because these folk are a truly small minority and well out of step with the spirit of the site as a whole.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

thejst, well put. Might I ask exactly what "trolling" is an an activity? It was mentioned in a few threads. I know what a troll is, and I know the fishing term for trolling, but what about its use in cyberspace? Merci, mon ami.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I suspect it may have more to do with a newcomer (usually one with a stubborn personality, or with a chip on their shoulder) rubbing the regulars the wrong way... it happens on BBSs from time to time when the population/popularity reaches are certain point.

Dr.G: Trolling.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Kiddies are out of school and ehMac did get some huge exposure during the Canada Apple Store openning. Things will get back to "normal" soon enough.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Dr. G  .....you mean you really WERE puzzled when I teased you about chumming.


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## planethoth (Jun 14, 2005)

I'm stubborn, yes. Chip on my shoulder, sometimes. But that doesn't mean I am stupid, ignorant, bigoted, racist, hate-filled, paranoid, "mindnumb robot of the right", etc.

Some of the tactics used against me were much worse than the provocative way I was arguing. The low blows of some community members against me--the only one arguing my position against a swarm of opponents--was outrageous.

One community member even demanded that I tell them my ancestry! Don't blame me for exposing the dark side of the board, unintentionally.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

I never "demanded." I politely asked since I was puzzled by your statement of how "your people" were reading and writing many, many years ago and since you are a Canadian and Canada has only been a country for 130 odd years or so, I didn't understand so I asked for clarificaction.

Demand? Hardly.
You may want to purchase a dictionary or use www.dictionary.com before making such outlandish statements.
Unless, of course, that was your intent.


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## Mrs. Furley (Sep 1, 2004)

planethoth said:


> One community member even demanded that I tell them my ancestry! Don't blame me for exposing the dark side of the board, unintentionally.


Sorry, planethoth, but you were the one who referred to your "people" which obviously prompted the question 'who are your people?'. Nobody demanded it. It seems to me that you are skewing what happened to make yourself look like you were attacked when, in fact, it appears you posted on this board in search of an argument. Your first post was confrontational - what did you expect?


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

The mayor and his deputies are the only ones capable of telling you that you are unwelcome here...

But I doubt you made any friends here yesterday. You attacked long standing members of this community with shakey or non-existant logic. You recieved little or no support for your point of view and became stubbonly indigant as more an more regular posters sided against you.

Vulgarity and abusivness are not hallmarks of this board. They do occur, but not often.

Everyone has a right to thier opinion, and is free to express it.
But if you are abuse others for not sharing it, don't look for sympathy.


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## sdm688 (Dec 12, 2004)

I've stayed out of pretty much all debates on political issues. why? Too controversial and too personal. Everyone has their own opinions and being confrontational is the last tactic you want to try to change someone's point of view. Seriously do you think anything gets done in Parlament? So planethoth why do you think starting all these threads which rub people the wrong way will get you anywhere except a shouting match? I have no problem with you being passionate about a subject but I know there is a much better, civil way you could have communicated your view points with this audience. My 2 cents!


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## CN (Sep 3, 2004)

I agree. It seems like more and more threads start these huge flame wars. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't visit ehMac as much because of this. It's boring. I'm not interested in always debating hardcore issues, and being personally attacked for it, sometimes just chatting is nice . Some members seem to absolutely thrive on these "debates" (if you could even call them that), and its just getting boring.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

(I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but here goes....)

planethoth, you mention that you are stubborn and you sometimes have a chip on your shoulder. There are--as you've noticed--many other stubborn people here who may also have a chip on their shoulder. In my experience, when stubborn people start discussing an issue from different sides, it gets very ugly very quickly. I think some of the threads started here recently are good examples of that.

I'd like to emphasize here that you are simply one of many people. This kind of stubborn vs. stubborn debate happens a lot here--though I perceive a greater intensity to the argument when you are involved, perhaps related to how quickly you respond. 

However, in the interests promoting good debate here, I have a polite suggestion for you. (And yes, I'm sure others could or should heed this as well.) I think you'd be able to present your side more effectively if you change your approach slightly. 

A couple of ideas--feel free to ignore them:
1) Ignore the personal attacks. Yes, they are hard to hear, but if you ignore them, then the person who made the attack ends up looking childish and less credible, whereas if you respond, you both remove some credibility and the debate is derailed.

2) Stay on the topic at hand, even if others don't. Yes, there is always going to be disagreement about what is or isn't on topic, but ignore it and make your points to the issue at hand--again, the person who throws in all sorts of other issues is going to look foolish.

3) Don't seek to convince others, just to explain your point of view as fully as possible. It is nearly impossible to convince someone who has made up their mind, and stubborn people typically have their mind made up. Debate, refute, discuss, of course, but know that people will disagree with you--especially when you have (as you put it in another thread) an original or different point of view. Keep in mind, though, that many more people read these threads than post on them, and the ones who read without posting are more likely to not have formed a firm opinion yet.

4) People believe what they perceive. If I perceive that I have been insulted, that is my perception, but the person who insulted me may not have intended the insult, and therefore perceives that I am making a big deal of nothing. Who's to say who's right? But arguing which perception is correct is, in my opinion, a futile exercise. It's usually more productive to the debate to drop it and agree to disagree.

As I said, I think these suggestions will simply improve debate around here... Just my opinion.


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## sammy (Oct 12, 2002)

I too try to keep divisive ideas to myself. I applaud those who stand up for their convictions, but visiting the board yesterday was like finding a turd in a punchbowl.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

I know what you are saying here. But... I think in ehMac's defence as a whole.. those threads are usually few and far between. The good posts are still here. I willingly avoid anything that I don't care to read. 

I think some find the posts interesting.. threads should be allowed to continue on track only if they are good in manner and ettiquette. Resorting to violence/name calling is not the answer and so should be closed. But completely avoiding issues at all doesn't make for a good alternative either.

I for one.. haven't lost interest in ehMac because of it. In fact.. I think a community can only be as good as all of it's members.. hence making it a diverse and interesting place to come.

Many people have many different views on many many different things.. but they shouldn't be slandered for voicing them.. nor should anyone be slandered for voicing their opinion right back. This is when it becomes a problem and this is when I stop reading.

All in all.. I don't think Politics/Religion should be banned. However, constructively they usually lead to violence/slander. But only IF and WHEN they do.. should they be closed. 

I will give you a good reason to back up that theory. A community is based on many types of individuals. (as I stated earlier) Many people might have the same opinion and just not voice it. Therefore, someone just made friends with someone else privately. There is nothing wrong or unhealthy about that. It's just sad that it usually ends up in an unfriendly manner in the actual thread.

I think there will be many that disagree with my point. But.. it's my opinion. Take it as it is  I love ehMac.. and I WILL fight for it!


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## andrewenterprise (May 22, 2005)

CN said:


> I agree. It seems like more and more threads start these huge flame wars. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't visit ehMac as much because of this. It's boring. I'm not interested in always debating hardcore issues, and being personally attacked for it, sometimes just chatting is nice . Some members seem to absolutely thrive on these "debates" (if you could even call them that), and its just getting boring.



well put CN. I was drawn to ehMac because of its laid back atmosphere. I totally agree.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

I find it comical how everyone is so disturbed about planethoth's posts. The only difference between the tone of some of his comments and many of the more outspoken members here (that people rarely take issue with) is the fact he isn't singing with the choir on an issue. Its refreshing when a fish in the pond chooses to swim against the current. It would be nice if the debate stayed civil but as with most controversial threads on ehmac, it eventually turns to personal attacks. This is nothing new.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MacGuiver said:


> It would be nice if the debate stayed civil but as with most controversial threads on ehmac, it eventually turns to personal attacks. This is nothing new.


It may not be anything new, but it's nothing good either.

I think the deal with this planethoth situation is his speed and vigilance in responding to everything--fanning the flames and intensifying the situation, so to speak.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

how about adopting a new slogan here?

*please do not feed the trolls!*


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Who's that Trip Tropping accross my Bridge!?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacGuiver said:


> The only difference between the tone of some of his comments and many of the more outspoken members here (that people rarely take issue with) is the fact he isn't singing with the choir on an issue. Its refreshing when a fish in the pond chooses to swim against the current.


Sorry MacGuiver, the difference is that that particular member came in, not to debate his point of view or even illustrate it, but to ram his ill conceived vitriol a la MacNutt.
I'm all for a different point of view but this was not it.
Further, I have different points of view with some of members here and our disagreements are usually civil.


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## iKV (Oct 3, 2004)

*Well said.*



Sonal said:


> (I'm sure I'm going to regret this, but here goes....)
> 
> planethoth, you mention that you are stubborn and you sometimes have a chip on your shoulder. There are--as you've noticed--many other stubborn people here who may also have a chip on their shoulder. In my experience, when stubborn people start discussing an issue from different sides, it gets very ugly very quickly. I think some of the threads started here recently are good examples of that.
> 
> ...


Well put, very logical points!! Taking the high road isn't such a bad choice.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> Sorry MacGuiver, the difference is that that particular member came in, not to debate his point of view or even illustrate it, but to ram his ill conceived vitriol a la MacNutt.
> I'm all for a different point of view but this was not it.
> Further, I have different points of view with some of members here and our disagreements are usually civil.


I'd add he was EXTREMLY abussive from the get go and was NOT willing to take even a fraction of what he dished out.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Disagreements are great, it gets people talking and new Ideas and points of view are revealed... It's your choice to listen to them, even your choice to respond... namaste dudes!


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Sonal said:


> It may not be anything new, but it's nothing good either.
> 
> I think the deal with this planethoth situation is his speed and vigilance in responding to everything--fanning the flames and intensifying the situation, so to speak.


Hi Sonal

I agree 100%. It would be nice if controversial issues could be debated without the usual mud slinging and personal attacks. On rare occasion that does happen. Rare that is.

Your tips in your previous post were bang on.

Looking past the personal attacks, I think planethoth held his own with his arguments but the insults were certainly not one-sided. He seemed knowledgeable about the issue and its too bad the argument couldn't have stayed civil. I think he offered a refreshing perspective.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> thejst, well put. Might I ask exactly what "trolling" is an an activity? It was mentioned in a few threads. I know what a troll is, and I know the fishing term for trolling, but what about its use in cyberspace? Merci, mon ami.


In reference to the net, a "troll" or "trolling" is somone saying inflammatory things simply for the sake of stirring things up.

Like coming on a Mac forum and saying, "Macs suck!". That would be an example of trolling.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Vinnie Cappuccino said:


> Disagreements are great, it gets people talking and new Ideas and points of view are revealed... It's your choice to listen to them, even your choice to respond... namaste dudes!


i wholly agree.. oh wait, i mean disagree... but i agree, oh wait....


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MacGuiver said:


> Looking past the personal attacks, I think planethoth held his own with his arguments but the insults were certainly not one-sided. He seemed knowledgeable about the issue and its too bad the argument couldn't have stayed civil. I think he offered a refreshing perspective.


I agree. It wasn't all planethoth--even poor debate requires two sides--though there was a lot of planethoth..... especially when he started 2 new threads to complain about the other thread, and specifically called out MacDoc in the title of one of them.... which naturally brought out his detractors. 

He may have had a refreshing perspective, but (and admittedly, I haven't followed the issues closely, and but I largely disagree with his general philosophy) but it quickly got lost in the rapid-fire response to every side issue and every perceived personal attack.

I think when you present a minority opinion, you actually have to work a lot harder to be heard, and to do that you have to take the high road, stay rational and factual, and keep emotion out of it. It may not be fair, but it's how it seems to work. The difficulty is that when you're presenting an unpopular view, you're a lot more likely to be attacked and get on the defensive very quickly.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Sonal said:


> I think when you present a minority opinion, you actually have to work a lot harder to be heard,


Actually, I think minority opinions don't have to work as hard - it's easy to spew something controversial. What often happens is that there is little logical points after that, only hollow rhetoric....


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

ArtistSeries said:


> Actually, I think minority opinions don't have to work as hard - it's easy to spew something controversial. What often happens is that there is little logical points after that, only hollow rhetoric....


Let me rephrase:

I think when you present a minority opinion, you have to work work a lot hard to be perceived by the majority as not spewing empty controversial rhetoric, and show that you have a valid, well-argued and logical point of view.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Vinnie Cappuccino said:


> Who's that Trip Tropping accross my Bridge!?


"It's only little me," said Tiny Gruff. "I'm no bigger than a sausage. Wait till my brother comes along... 

Billy Goats Gruff" by Susan Hellard is my daughter's favourite book


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

I know that many of our discussions become unpleasant and I have agreed with members of this forum on some subjects and disagreed on others. I respect the people who have disagreed with me in the past and find myself agreeing with them on other subjects. Surely that's what it's all about? It's kinda like a family isn't it? Sometimes we have flaming rows about subjects we feel passionately about but we (usually anyway) make it up in the end. We must feel able to express ourselves freely, even if that means not participating. It is our choice. I know I keep saying it, but this is Canada and we value our freedom of speech. I don't like the way planetoth expresses his views and I disagree with everything he has said, but he must be allowed to say it, so long as he can live with the consequences. You cannot start a thread which you know (or should know) will be offensive to many people and then complain that you're being "picked on".

P.S. Billy Goats Gruff" was a favourite of mine as a child, especially the old audio version.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

You only get one chance to make a first impression.

The thread title is that first chance and should be used wisely.

So one should consider the title carefully to be sure it makes a good impression and is positive to the subject, IMHO.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

ShawnKing, thanks for your answer "In reference to the net, a "troll" or "trolling" is somone saying inflammatory things simply for the sake of stirring things up.

Like coming on a Mac forum and saying, "Macs suck!". That would be an example of trolling."

By the way, if you get a call from the National Enquirer about your saying that "Macs suck!", it was all a misunderstanding. However, I did cash their $10,000 check to expose you are a PC-loving pod casting you know what.

Seriously, imagine the power of the internet to do such things. I could go to MacWorld and post that SK said "Macs suck!". That, to me, is more that trolling, it's libel.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

There's a whole range from blatant ( and discouraged ) to subtle ( you've done it yourself clearly unwittingly ) to draw conversation or discussion.
Well done it's like managing a conversation at a dinner party.

Part of the problem in this sequence was a certain reluctance to reopen discussions long dealt with so there was a dismissive quality for many posters including myself.

Failure to get quickly to the heart of issues and failure to keep diversions or "too broad statements" at a minimum resulted in a high degree of rowdiness.

Trolling is not necessarily a pejorative term as it CAN elicit responses.* I tried forever to get a bonobo discussion going but no one bit *
There's another troll right there. 

There is a bit of a double entendre as well as those who troll may be called trolls - ugly creatures who live in caves and only come out to create mischief.


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## planethoth (Jun 14, 2005)

I can summarize my responses thus:

1. Provocative is not the same thing as personal attacks and cheap namecalling. I didn't start that, others did. Go check it out. Criticizing MacDoc is not a personal attack on him. It was fair to ask why this board and his comments under his BUSINESS name seemed so one-sided. I am sure MacDoc has contributed great things to this board and runs a great business. This was a political discussion.

2. It is a matter of public record there that Macspectrum is not telling the truth about why I used the term "my people". In fact, Dajonesy--one of the worst of the lot--was the one who brought up my "people" as a comparison. I quote from him:

"These people excelled at art, music, mathematics, science and astronomy when your ancestors were picking fleas from their plague infested bodies or otherwise eating moss off of rocks in caves."

This is in my response to a critique of Arab culture--a fair comment so long as it is possible to critique American or Canadian or any other culture! Not only was this fallacious, it attempts to drag in something that has nothing to do with anything. My comments were not about inherent superiority or inferiority. He started that line, not me. 

3. Artist Series is someone whose contribution to that discussion was nothing but insults. Go back in the record. You will find Artist's scant contributions, such as calling me "mindnumb robot of the right", were pure abusive rhetoric.

4. I am NOT A TROLL.

5. The minority position, mine in this case, is easy to get people to get mad at. However, it certainly is harder to defend when the ratio of opponents to you is 15 to 1 and 20 to 1. Don't say I was too broad and unfocused when arguing with 15 people at once! The level of detail that I included in my posts for this type of discussion seems to me as remarkable as anything under the circumstances.

6. Most important: calling a person BIGOT does not make it so. Saying they have no logic does not make it so. Saying someone is ignorant does not make it so. These are cheap insults. I don't think some people here seem to recognize the difference. I'd say that's the dark side.


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## Pylonman (Aug 16, 2004)

eww, (wipe spittle from eye)
say it don't spit it


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Pylonman said:


> eww, (wipe spittle from eye) say it don't spit it


The way I learned this expression is 'say it, don't spray it'


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> ShawnKing, thanks for your answer


Well, seeing as others were ignoring your requeat, i decided to answer it. 


> By the way, if you get a call from the National Enquirer about your saying that "Macs suck!", it was all a misunderstanding.


Bah! I've been called by them before. 


> However, I did cash their $10,000 check to expose you are a PC-loving pod casting you know what.


Well, it seems to be "Slam Shawn King Day" today so enjoy. 

2 web site have taken shots at me today alone- one seriously but not well (<b><a href="http://godlikenerd.com/weblog/2005/07/05/your-mac-jerks/" target="_blank">Your Mac Jerks</a></b>) and one tongue in check but more factual than the former (<b><a href="http://www.crazyapplerumors.com/archives/000498.html#000498" target="_blank">Shawn King Too Lazy To Podcast.</a></b>)! 


> Seriously, imagine the power of the internet to do such things.


The Net does it all the time. In the first example above, the author posts that I said certain things. Things I demonstrably *didn't* say.


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## Pylonman (Aug 16, 2004)

rgray said:


> The way I learned this expression is 'say it, don't spray it'


Opps! Thats right! It's been years since I've used it
couldn't resist


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

ShawnKing said:


> Well, it seems to be "Slam Shawn King Day" today so enjoy.


Next thing you know, Motorola will be on your butt and you know how nasty those guys can be!  Or what if the people of Toronto rise up against you!  

I'm kidding of course - people need to lighten up.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

planethoth said:


> I can summarize my responses thus:
> 
> 1. Provocative is not the same thing as personal attacks and cheap namecalling. I didn't start that, others did. Go check it out. Criticizing MacDoc is not a personal attack on him. It was fair to ask why this board and his comments under his BUSINESS name seemed so one-sided. I am sure MacDoc has contributed great things to this board and runs a great business. This was a political discussion.


Yo, planethoth... you are right provacative does not necessarily mean personal attacks, however you were not being provacative. You were starting the conversation by hurling disparging remarks at a member of this community who has on more than one occassion gone out of their way to help others. He never asked you for your opinion on how he conducts his personal and professional life. You went out of your way to start the insulting tone of that thread.



planethoth said:


> 2. It is a matter of public record there that Macspectrum is not telling the truth about why I used the term "my people". In fact, Dajonesy--one of the worst of the lot--was the one who brought up my "people" as a comparison. I quote from him:
> 
> "These people excelled at art, music, mathematics, science and astronomy when your ancestors were picking fleas from their plague infested bodies or otherwise eating moss off of rocks in caves."
> 
> This is in my response to a critique of Arab culture--a fair comment so long as it is possible to critique American or Canadian or any other culture! Not only was this fallacious, it attempts to drag in something that has nothing to do with anything. My comments were not about inherent superiority or inferiority. He started that line, not me.


Now please, revisionist history will not be tolerated. You made this incredibly unthoughtful, hateful comment...

_Nothing to say about the Arab world's pathetic tribalism and arrested development?_

How can that be taken in any other way than a insulting direct assault on a whole society?

I would have ignored you today as you are clearyly arguing from an extreme fringe point of view. But I'm a little miffed today. I am writing this response from the food court in JKF airport waiting for my flight back to Buffalo. This morning as I went through security I noticed something that I hadn't been paying that much attention to lately as I had thought it had died down. As I was placing my bag on the X-Ray roller the TSA inspector handed my boarding pass to his superiorer and she said "No not him, he is a regular... that guy behind him". As I turned around there was a guy who could have been South Asian (I'm not sure in any event as he was Brown) and as I went through security (with my shoes on) he was instructed to basically take off his shoes, belt, etc... He was then taken aside a search more (with a wand). I watched and he was not alone... ever person I saw being pulled aside was a visible minority. I just witnessed the same thing here at JFK.

So clearly I have a little angst against planethoth at the moment. At what point does this end? Planethoth, I found your comments yesterday insulting and derogatory. I am sorry that you bore the brunt of my angst, however your refussal to admit any wrong doing only furthers my resolve that argue against your position (which as I have said I find totally reprehensible... to call an entire culture pathetic, for shame on you).



planethoth said:


> 4. I am NOT A TROLL.


I am not the first (and will not be the last) to say that you are wrong, that your tone at the very beginning of that thread was insulting and derogatory. Given that you have no relationship with Macdoc outside of these discussions on ehMac, your initial posts were only provided to draw out either Macdoc or others who support him into arguing with you.



planethoth said:


> 6. Most important: calling a person BIGOT does not make it so. Saying they have no logic does not make it so. Saying someone is ignorant does not make it so. These are cheap insults. I don't think some people here seem to recognize the difference. I'd say that's the dark side.


NO, a cheap insult is...

_"Nothing to say about the Arab world's pathetic tribalism and arrested development?"_

That is a cheap insult. Everything you got you deserved.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

We should start a "Praise for Mac Mavens" thread, with the likes of ShawnKing, MacDoc, MacGenius, Heart, et al, leading the way to accept our accolades. Granted, just this thought, posted in this thread, is way off the topic, but there are times when even bitter enemies have to stop for a moment and regroup. We shall see. Paix, mes amis.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Dr.G. said:


> We should start a "Praise for Mac Mavens" thread, with the likes of ShawnKing, MacDoc, MacGenius, Heart, et al, leading the way to accept our accolades. Granted, just this thought, posted in this thread, is way off the topic, but there are times when even bitter enemies have to stop for a moment and regroup. We shall see. Paix, mes amis.


Translation:

Play nice guys!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sinc, that too. However, with all of the rage that is being seen throughout the world, and watching it spill here in ehMacLand, there must be some way to reestablish a sense of calm and rational exchanges of ideas and feelings.


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## planethoth (Jun 14, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> Yo, planethoth... you are right provacative does not necessarily mean personal attacks, however you were not being provacative. You were starting the conversation by hurling disparging remarks at a member of this community who has on more than one occassion gone out of their way to help others. He never asked you for your opinion on how he conducts his personal and professional life. You went out of your way to start the insulting tone of that thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dajonesy, you are the historical revisionist, my friend. Everyone can go read the transcipt! This quote was in response to your pathetic attempt to explain all the Arab world's problems as the fault of the United States and Israel. The Arab world is not = Arabs as individuals--PERIOD.

The Arab world means, as I pointed out, the state of the culture, politically and otherwise, of the Arab states in the Middle East. You know very well your emotional anecdotes about the airport have ZERO to do with what I was saying.

Criticizing the state of culture of any country or group of countries or societies is NOT bigotry. Period. It is seems merely to be your craven way of insulting those who say something you think sounds not nice.

I expect an apology will be forthcoming on your repeated slandering of me as a bigot.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I can play ya a nice soothing tune on my Kazoo!  that will sooth these savage Beasts, Like a Pied Piper of sorts! All we need is love! Paix Mon Amis!


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MBD said:


> Next thing you know, Motorola will be on your butt


Well...I have told them how crappy their RZR phone is....


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> We should start a "Praise for Mac Mavens" thread, with the likes of ShawnKing, MacDoc, MacGenius, Heart, et al, leading the way to accept our accolades.


Don't you dare.

I, for one at least, have done *nothing* to deserve accolades on this board as a "Mac Maven".


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

planethoth said:


> I expect an apology will be forthcoming on your repeated slandering of me as a bigot.


I'm still waiting for an apology for calling me a *liar*.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

SK, it is your reputation that would place you in the Mac Maven Hall of Fame.

http://www.yourmaclife.com/users.php?mode=profile&uid=6

I rest my case, your honor.


----------



## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> SK, it is your reputation that would place you in the Mac Maven Hall of Fame.
> 
> http://www.yourmaclife.com/users.php?mode=profile&uid=6
> 
> I rest my case, your honor.


Our Canadian Mac Superhero is humble Dr. G. Perhaps a lesson to be learned ...


----------



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

planethoth said:


> Dajonesy, you are the historical revisionist, my friend. Everyone can go read the transcipt! This quote was in response to your pathetic attempt to explain all the Arab world's problems as the fault of the United States and Israel. The Arab world is not = Arabs as individuals--PERIOD.
> 
> The Arab world means, as I pointed out, the state of the culture, politically and otherwise, of the Arab states in the Middle East. You know very well your emotional anecdotes about the airport have ZERO to do with what I was saying.


You clearly do not understand the nature of the problem. It is impossible for you to comprehend. 

Your comment was directed at a population as a whole. You were completely and totally generalizing an entire segment of the population of the middle east.

My observations today are a direct example as to how hate and ignorance directed at certain visible minorities are alive and well in our society. They only go to prove that you are not alone and that there is a much larger issue that needs to be dealt with before that hate and ignorance gets out of hand.



planethoth said:


> Criticizing the state of culture of any country or group of countries or societies is NOT bigotry. Period. It is seems merely to be your craven way of insulting those who say something you think sounds not nice.


Not nice would be saying that the people of the middle east are incapable of tolerance towards the west. That is not nice. You used the word "pathetic", anyone with a grade 9 english course under their belt recognizes the negative mean of that word.

You went well beyond simple criticism and stepped well into the realm of bigotry when you used the word "pathetic".



planethoth said:


> I expect an apology will be forthcoming on your repeated slandering of me as a bigot.


Look until you retract your statement, I don't have to take back anything. The hateful meaning of your comment is clear for everyone else to see. The only slandering I did was to call you a "phallus cranium"... for that I do apologize.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

To Chealion and the Mayor...

This does need to stop, however I cannot in good conscious allow the rhetoric being spewed forth by planethoth to go unanswered. It is all to easy to turn the other cheek in the face of ignorance and hate... At some point people need to stand up for what is right and not let others spread hate, ignorance and fear.

I'm not sure what you two want me to do in this case, I am trying to be a good citizen.  

PS. I am about to hop on a plane, I hope I get some guidance from you guys when I get back home tonight.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Thank you for the kind word, iPetie. "Humbility" is my middle name............or is it humility...............or is it Stephen????? Whatever, this hijacked thread is brought to you by the folks that bring you a momentary respite from the "whips and scorns of time" and those who might "Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war". Paix, mes amis.


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## planethoth (Jun 14, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> You clearly do not understand the nature of the problem. It is impossible for you to comprehend.
> 
> Your comment was directed at a population as a whole. You were completely and totally generalizing an entire segment of the population of the middle east.
> 
> ...



I won't retract this statement. You called Israel "fascist", so I could ask you to take that back, too. I won't. I am only asking you to take back the ridiculous claim it is bigoted to describe flaws in the culture of a region or culture.

Tribalism is, in mind, "pathetic" when it devolves into the kind of clan warfare that characterizes so much of the Middle East in particular. If you can think a comment that a guy getting killed for iPod once speaks about American society, is it not fair to say that the day-in, day-out news stories about shi'a and sunnah killing each other, blowing up mosques, cutting people's heads off if they belong to the wrong group, suicide bombs, fatwas calling for death for the other faction, this guy and this guy avenging the honour, calling for death to Jews and Americans, talking about blood for the martyrs, etc. etc.... is it not FAIR COMMENT to say that perhaps we can make the comment that the GENERAL state of Arab culture at the present moment is TRIBALISTIC???

Not the same thing at all as saying, oh, we should hate Arabs, or all Arabs are like this, or furthermore that Arabs living anywhere outside that millieu have anything in common with that!

That wasn't bigotry. "Pathetic" wasn't my best choice of adjective, but it was certainly not bigotry. Retract such a claim, please.


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## planethoth (Jun 14, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> To Chealion and the Mayor...
> 
> This does need to stop, however I cannot in good conscious allow the rhetoric being spewed forth by planethoth to go unanswered. It is all to easy to turn the other cheek in the face of ignorance and hate... At some point people need to stand up for what is right and not let others spread hate, ignorance and fear.
> 
> ...


To Chealion and the Mayor,

I cannot in good conscience allow da jonesy's slander of me as being ignorant and hateful. I have clarified my comments time and again and he will not retract ths claim.

This is pure theatre by jonesy.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> Thank you for the kind word, iPetie. "Humbility" is my middle name............or is it humility...............or is it Stephen????? Whatever, this hijacked thread is brought to you by the folks that bring you a momentary respite from the "whips and scorns of time" and those who might "Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war". Paix, mes amis.


Momentary indeed, I'd stick with Stephen, but can you feel the "humidity" in here!


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

planethoth said:


> I won't retract this statement. You called Israel "fascist", so I could ask you to take that back, too. I won't. I am only asking you to take back the ridiculous claim it is bigoted to describe flaws in the culture of a region or culture.
> 
> Tribalism is, in mind, "pathetic" when it devolves into the kind of clan warfare that characterizes so much of the Middle East in particular. If you can think a comment that a guy getting killed for iPod once speaks about American society, is it not fair to say that the day-in, day-out news stories about shi'a and sunnah killing each other, blowing up mosques, cutting people's heads off if they belong to the wrong group, suicide bombs, fatwas calling for death for the other faction, this guy and this guy avenging the honour, calling for death to Jews and Americans, talking about blood for the martyrs, etc. etc.... is it not FAIR COMMENT to say that perhaps we can make the comment that the GENERAL state of Arab culture at the present moment is TRIBALISTIC???
> 
> ...


You've already rejected cultural relativism in this arguement so you are judging an entire population based on your standards of behaviour. If you cannot understand that a foreign culture is just that, then your comments can only be interpreted in a negative predjudicial manner.

In terms of my comments on Israel... I think they stand up given what Israel has done in terms of the institutionalized oppression that they have inflicted upon the palestinians. Now If I had made a comment directed at the Jewish people you would be correct in labeling me a bigot. I am commenting on the actions of the state of Isreal. There is a decided difference... nice try though.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

iPetie, I sense something in here. However, check out the Death Penalty thread to see how discussions are able to be conducted with disagreements and civility.


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## planethoth (Jun 14, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> You've already rejected cultural relativism in this arguement so you are judging an entire population based on your standards of behaviour. If you cannot understand that a foreign culture is just that, then your comments can only be interpreted in a negative predjudicial manner.
> 
> In terms of my comments on Israel... I think they stand up given what Israel has done in terms of the institutionalized oppression that they have inflicted upon the palestinians. Now If I had made a comment directed at the Jewish people you would be correct in labeling me a bigot. I am commenting on the actions of the state of Isreal. There is a decided difference... nice try though.


You keep getting more and more disingenous as you go on. The rejection of cultural relativism is not a simple "superiority vs. inferiority" dichotomy! I didn't make any claim like that--stop trying to drag me into the pigpen.

I didn't make a claim directed at the Arab people. I made a claim directed at the culture of the ARAB STATES. If you can dichotomize Israel and Jews, then I can certainly dichotomize Arabs and "Arab world". Don't decontextualize the comments and claim they mean something other than what i intended.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Dr. G,
I've been watching and agree with your assessment. However, not many, including myself, are able to debate with such calculated skill as you. This has been demonstrated on this board time and time again.
For most, the argument is emotional and not intellectual.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

iPetie, 30+ years in the classroom have helped to focus this "calculated skill", although I am not calculated and not really skillful in the art of debate. I am able, I believe, to help bring some semblance of civility to an empassionate arguement. As has been demonstrated in the Death Penalty thread, planethoth and I have agreed and disagreed in a civil manner. I think that if others simply took the time to see his words, as he should have taken the time to see MacDoc's words over the past couple of years, there would have been a lively debate without resorting to name calling. Paix, mon ami.


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## talonracer (Dec 30, 2003)

Not to make light, but it's kinda entertaining to just sit back and read this thread, being unattached to the situation and all.

I've my own opinions of this topic, as we all do, but to read the back and forth where basically the same thing is said and re-said again... makes ya wonder!


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I saw the thread about MacDoc and Americanism or whatever it was titled. I knew then that the thread was going to get more than heated as the title alone called the shots. I only read a couple of posts to prove myself correct.

MY opinion is that name calling, insults, derogatory remarks are childish and really only make the guy posting look bad. Then the posts are not REALLY read - the meaning of the post is long lost - as backs are up because of the insults or hurtful remarks. So, the thread really goes nowhere, nothing is solved or proven. Because no one listens once they are pissed off at being insulted. I have read many threads thus. I tend to think that a lot of people actually miss the point in many posts. It just seems to get to the point where people are only trying to justify their point of view and there really is no discussion at all.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Cameo, spoken like the wise diplomat you are and have been in the past. I am always pleased to see your posts, and read the wisdom of your words. Paix.


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## planethoth (Jun 14, 2005)

And for the millionth time I want to clarify about MacDoc:

I did not aim to detract from his contributions to this message board nor claim he deals unfairly with customers.

I think MacDoc's political views have a certain anti-American tinge to them, am I not allowed to dispute that? He argues forcefully for his position, and as far as I can see, the majority are on his side. Is this board not strong enough to withstand me, one lone dissenter who argues a forceful dissent?

One shouldn't confuse personal and political, just as one should not mix business with pleasure. Or, I might add to the list, business and politics.

I have no beef with MacDoc's person--and aside from my wonder as to why he would post political opinions under his business name--or his business.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> iPetie, 30+ years in the classroom have helped to focus this "calculated skill", although I am not calculated and not really skillful in the art of debate. I am able, I believe, to help bring some semblance of civility to an empassionate arguement. As has been demonstrated in the Death Penalty thread, planethoth and I have agreed and disagreed in a civil manner. I think that if others simply took the time to see his words, as he should have taken the time to see MacDoc's words over the past couple of years, there would have been a lively debate without resorting to name calling. Paix, mon ami.


Agreed!


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I can't say for sure, as I did not read very much of the thread, but after posting your point of view, can you say for sure that you actually "listened" to others points of view and then take their points of view into consideration? It is quite possible they did not "listen" to your point of view either, because the "tone" of the thread was insulting to begin with. It is very easy to take the wrong context of something if it is said or "posted" with an insulting undertone - and to be quite truthfull- as posted a few minutes ago - I knew from the title of the thread what was going to happen. Once the back is up the ears close.

Everyone, certainly is entitled to their own opinions. More effort needs to be put into putting that opinion down in a means that gets the opinion across without a nasty "tone" to it. Think of it as a voice and the different tones that are used when speaking out loud, to accentuate what is being said. The written word is no different.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

planethoth said:


> I have no beef with MacDoc's person--and aside from my wonder as to why he would post political opinions under his business name--or his business.


Actually:



planethoth said:


> Is EhMac a community for only leftist anti-American socialist xenophobes? And is MacDoc only running a business to cater to that segment?


Pretty inflammatory...


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

iPetie, if we could get more people to agree with the comments of people like Cameo, we would have a movement going.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

If we are getting a movement going can I come?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Cameo, I would hope that the likes of you would lead the movement. I have too much baggage to be the leader of any social movement (I also have an FBI file the thickness of a small phonebook). Lead on...............


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Um, excuse me, but with all this talk on the subject, I have to go have a, er, um, movement.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> iPetie, if we could get more people to agree with the comments of people like Cameo, we would have a movement going.


Yes, again! 

However, the level and intelligence of debate (in some cases argument) has certainly spiced this place up the last 48 hours.

Perhaps, if some (Emphasis Plural) could tone down the "Prickly", we would all be better for the challenge. I would observe that the level of response directly correlates to the lack of cerebral challenge around here lately. 

Nice Just Works! Hows that for a tagline?


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I haven't been around much the last several weeks due to being very, very busy at work, but I was alerted this evening to some of the "heat" on ehMac. The hot summer weather must be getting to a few people.  

Some people need to chill a little. Go to Timmies, and get yourself a Ice Cappacino. (Be careful who you might run into in Montreal). Seriously folks, this is an online discussion board for Mac geeks and a fun place to talk about other Canadian stuff. If you're getting into a tizzy because of what other Mac geeks are saying in an "Everything Else" forum, you need to step away from the computer for awhile.  

And if you come into a forum like this looking to start something, don't start crying when something is started.  

Anyways, I don't have the time right now to read and make an assesement of every post that has been made, but please *consider this an official call to chill. Let it go.* If anyone can't let it go, they'll be given a week cooling off period. 

Let's all have a collective Ice Cap together... and if you don't know what that is, you're probably on the wrong forum to begin with.  










Take a deep breath and take the high road. 

As I said in another thread... left wing, right wing debates... who cares when the whole bird is dead. If we can't get along on a silly, fun Mac discussion board... 










Don't make me whack you with an Ice Cap.


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## planethoth (Jun 14, 2005)

IronMac said:


> Actually:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty inflammatory...


Well I already admitted to being provocative. However, I also meant that. I do find much of what I read in the non-computer-related posts to anti-American, socialist, and often xenophobic. Don't trot out the dictionary again to play word games when you know very well what I meant.

But, again: refuting my views is not the same as attacking my intelligence or smearing me as a bigot, is it?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Take a deep breath and take the high road." Amen, brother.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Let it go


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

A very good post ehMax. As usual.

Good to see the thread "iced" but not locked. A diplomat to be sure.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

ipetie, how about:

be excellent to each other!


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

*"left wing, right wing - tastes the same to me"*

"left wing, right wing - tastes the same to me" KFC (if memory serves) ad


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Let it be.........let it be........."


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

"let it be oh, let it be. Whisper words of wisdom, let it be"


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

There will be an answer, let it be.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

When I find myself in times of trouble 
Mother Mary comes to me 
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. 
And in my hour of darkness 
She is standing right in front of me 
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be. 
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. 

Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. 

And when the night is cloudy,
There is still a light that shines on me,
Shine on until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be. 



Goodnight one and all. Paix, mes amis.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

A fitting end to a questionable thread.

Finis.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

planethoth said:


> But, again: refuting my views is not the same as attacking my intelligence or smearing me as a bigot, is it?


Like calling me a liar?


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

Ironmac -just can't let it go can you? If YOU know you are not a liar then that is all that is important. Who cares what another person, especially someone you don't even converse with particularly, thinks? I know you do - I remember another post. Seems like you just want to keep the arguement going - and to be truthfull that ends up making you look bad. Think about it.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Cameo said:


> Ironmac -just can't let it go can you? If YOU know you are not a liar then that is all that is important. Who cares what another person, especially someone you don't even converse with particularly, thinks? I know you do - I remember another post. Seems like you just want to keep the arguement going - and to be truthfull that ends up making you look bad. Think about it.


I only think that it's hypocritical that someone asks for an apology when they themselves go around falsely accusing people. If he's so concerned about "justice" then he should be able to dish it out, right?


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

I agree you have a point there and are possibly right if that is what he has done, but at this point it just seems like it is only said to keep the arguement going and reflects badly. This is the time to arrange priorities and say - "whatever", keeping your opinions true to yourself and to yourself. There is always a point to just drop it - this doesn't mean that you aren't standing up for your beliefs either - just that you are smart enough not to let another goad you into a childish debate that isn't productively going anywhere.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Cameo said:


> I agree you have a point there and are possibly right if that is what he has done, but at this point it just seems like it is only said to keep the arguement going and reflects badly. This is the time to arrange priorities and say - "whatever", keeping your opinions true to yourself and to yourself. There is always a point to just drop it - this doesn't mean that you aren't standing up for your beliefs either - just that you are smart enough not to let another goad you into a childish debate that isn't productively going anywhere.


Yeah, you're right but his beliefs don't include turning the other cheek. Fortunately, mine don't either.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

ehMax said:


> Don't make me whack you with an Ice Cap.


Yo, vip, let’s kick it!

Ice ice baby, ice ice baby
All right stop, collaborate and listen
Ice is back with my brand new invention
Something grabs a hold of me tightly
Then I flow like a harpoon daily and nightly
Will it ever stop? yo -- I don’t know
Turn off the lights and I’ll glow
To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal
Light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.

Dance, bum rush the speaker that booms
I’m killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom
Deadly, when I play a dope melody
Anything less than the best is a felony
Love it or leave it, you better gain way
You better hit bull’s eye, the kid don’t play
If there was a problem, yo, I’ll solve it
Check out the hook while my dj revolves it

Ice ice baby vanilla, ice ice baby vanilla
Ice ice baby vanilla, ice ice baby vanilla

  :clap:


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

IronMac said:


> Like calling me a liar?


Like I said... 



> but please consider this an official call to chill. Let it go. If anyone can't let it go, they'll be given a week cooling off period.


*WHACK*







*WHACK* 

Enjoy an IceCap for a 7 days in the nice summer weather IronMac.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> SK, it is your reputation that would place you in the Mac Maven Hall of Fame.


LOL You don't listen to our show, do you? My "reputation" in the Mac Community is not that great.

The good thing is, it's not that great because I've pissed off a lot of people by telling the truth, speaking my mind and not kissing ass.

I'll take a "bad" reputation based on that any day.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

iPetie said:


> Our Canadian Mac Superhero is humble Dr. G.


Not always. 

I'm always reminded of the Golda Meir line - "Don't be humble - you're not that great." 

I'm humble where I need to be and confident where I need to be. I'm lucky - I know what I do well and what I do poorly. I'm humble on the things I do poorly. 

When it comes to our show, we do it better than anyone else in the Mac Community - for what we do. But when it comes to "being a (minor) celebrity" and all the false trappings that go with it, I'm not humble - I just don't care for them.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

planethoth said:


> I think MacDoc's political views have a certain anti-American tinge to them...


LOL So do mine and I *live* here. People aren't allowed to have "anti-American views"? Interesting....


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## bhil (Oct 30, 2004)

ehMax said:


> Like I said...
> 
> *WHACK*
> 
> ...


Thank you honorable mayor for bringing an end to this discussion.

I missed the whole uproar, but had to see what all the fuss was about once I saw a few references to it. I went in with the intention of reading a couple of posts to get the idea, but almost like a compelling novel, kept reading and reading, slowly being drawn into the abyss, needing to see the gory ending. (I believe the proper term is morbid fascination). I was happy to see your call to chill, and even happier to see an enforcement of it to show people you were serious. 

Cudos to the mayor.


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## bhil (Oct 30, 2004)

An addendum to my last message. Maybe what the community needs is to leave politics out of the Everything Else section and create a Politics section specifically for these types of discussions. I would recommend leaving the Poilitics section a completely unmoderated, enter at your own risk area, where all of the people who don't know better than to keep away from political discussions, can go in an discuss/insult/cry/whine/complain with each other. I think this would help keep the overall tone of the rest of the board (the important part) happier and more like the place we've come to love.

But that's just my 2 cents.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

That is two cents well spent


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Wow, two Ice Caps in a couple of days! 

Everything Else, is just that. If people don't want to read about politics, then don't. Skip the thread. If you want a Disneyesque view of the world, stick to the playground. As has been seen by todays events, the world can be horribly cruel and nasty but it is also beautiful and stimulating. What is written in these threads is tame compared with any pub on any night and no one is forcing anyone to drink.

Being civil is a good trait, but being boring is not.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Tim Hortons will Kill ya Man, I cannot condone drinking any of their products, 'sides, that's and American company now, why would ya wanna support that!?  I make my own Iced brew, and it is great, Come on over for a cup!


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## draz (Jun 13, 2005)

ha ha

trolling is a malicous member looking to start an online flaming war or verbally abuse others. ie sh#t disturbers. I think you can look it up on wikipedia.com


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## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

used to be jwoodget said:


> Wow, two Ice Caps in a couple of days!
> 
> Everything Else, is just that. If people don't want to read about politics, then don't. Skip the thread. If you want a Disneyesque view of the world, stick to the playground. As has been seen by todays events, the world can be horribly cruel and nasty but it is also beautiful and stimulating. What is written in these threads is tame compared with any pub on any night and no one is forcing anyone to drink.
> 
> Being civil is a good trait, but being boring is not.



to be honest UTBJW, I don't know a lot of people with a Disneyesque view of the world...just b/c they don't get involved doesn't mean that they live in a dreamland...maybe they simply lack the confidence to say what is on their minds...


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## bhil (Oct 30, 2004)

thejst said:


> to be honest UTBJW, I don't know a lot of people with a Disneyesque view of the world...just b/c they don't get involved doesn't mean that they live in a dreamland...maybe they simply lack the confidence to say what is on their minds...


Exactly. I don't have (and don't want) a Disneyesque view of the world, but I just don't feel politics is interesting enough to get involved in the heated discussions that take place about it. I have my opinions, I just usually don't express them because almost any opinion on politics is going to spawn a heated discussion.


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