# Amerika



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)




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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Michael, when it says "Vote Bush in 2008"..............or, just "Bush is your president in 2008", then we REALLY have to worry.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

worry now

BushCo. has irreperably damaged U.S. foreign policy for decades to come
Amerika is no longer seen as a bastion of freedom, but that of a nation of opressors

Wilkommen ein Amerika.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Flamebait. Go find something useful to do.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> BushCo. has irreperably damaged U.S. foreign policy for decades to come


OH...BS....This too shall pass.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"If we don´t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don´t believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

ShawnKing said:


> OH...BS....This too shall pass.


I hope it will, I really don't think it will... It's interesting to look at what America is doing, the way they scare their citizens into giving up their rights, They have a common belief that America is the One Nation under God (propoganda), I like to hear their views on other cultures, especially their views on Canadian Culture. I'm very surprized that more has not been done about the vote stealing machines, they really believe that they have the God given right to spread their version of democracy around the world, yikes, I hear that George Bush also wants to grow a Charlie Chaplin Moustache, hahahaa!

Great Quote Dr G! Thanks!


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was a reference to something else …

Check, on the US iTunes Music Store, the Music Video for "Amerika", by the group Rammstein.

Sort the vids by title, because there are 580 odd of them, and then you'll only need to get to the 2nd page of them.

I haven't found this vid on the UK, Canadian or even German iTunes Music Stores.


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## Jacklar (Jul 23, 2005)

Since when has America represented freedom other then to the west? Try asking Latin America and The Middle East about America representing freedom in the last 60-70years. Their foriegn policy is just more public now rather then hidden from the press.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

VC, don't thank me, thank Noam Chomsky. 

I see freedom of speech as being the first freedom to go in times of fear. Then, freedom of assembly. Freedom of the press is somewhat stiffled already, in that there is such a conglomoration of ownership of media in the hands of so few persons/corporations. Freedom of religion is questionable, in that certain religions are being "tarred" by the acts of some within that faith.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Jacklar said:


> Since when has America represented freedom other then to the west?


You obviously haven't talked to anyone who escaped from "behind the iron curtain". USA deffinatly represented freedom to many of these peoples.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Martman, when my grandparents were forced out of Russia in 1903 in the total expulsion of Jewish people in Czarist Russia, they came to New York City and kissed the ground. This might sound trite, but I have always seen the Statue of Liberty as the symbol of what America represents (or should represent) for any and all around the world who want a new life.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Trolling?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

IronMac, was I supposed to respond to your posting of "Trolling?" To be honest, I still do not fully understand the connotation of this term. I don't want to ignore you if this was meant for me, but I am not sure of the context of your post. Paix.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> "If we don´t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don´t believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky


I think this is a much better quotation to remember: "The principle of free thought is not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought we hate." Oliver Wendell Holmes a.k.a. The Great Dissenter.

I had to post on this because I don't think too highly of Chomsky. He is greatly quoted but largely ineffectual theorist. His anarchist viewpoint isn't something worth giving much consideration of, and most of the good things he said were mostly well-established truisms already entrenched by great minds than him, like Judge Holmes.

My biggest grudge against Chomsky was his criticism of the American press concerning the Khmer Rouge. The press was reporting fairly accurate information about the massacres and enslavements occuring in Cambodia. Chomsky dismissed their reporting with a string of jesuitical hairsplitting.

When it mattered most, Chomsky cut down the western press for his own ideological gain. He called them liars and corporate yes-man because they reported on the mass execution of Cambodian dissidents. The press was being a voice for the voiceless, and Chomsky was determined to tear out its throat.


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## Mugatu (Mar 31, 2005)

lpkmckenna said:


> Flamebait. Go find something useful to do.


Bump!... I mean, I agree with lpk.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> Martman, when my grandparents were forced out of Russia in 1903 in the total expulsion of Jewish people in Czarist Russia, they came to New York City and kissed the ground. This might sound trite, but I have always seen the Statue of Liberty as the symbol of what America represents (or should represent) for any and all around the world who want a new life.


Different era same result.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

lpkmckenna, Oliver Wendell Holmes was an American jurist whom I truly admired and respected. We need the likes of a Holmes on the US Supreme Court today.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Martman, re your comment "Different era same result", I say "very true". Still, I have no regrets having emmigrated to Canada 28 years and 3 days ago, or becoming a Canadian citizen back on July 1st, 1997.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> IronMac, was I supposed to respond to your posting of "Trolling?"  To be honest, I still do not fully understand the connotation of this term. I don't want to ignore you if this was meant for me, but I am not sure of the context of your post. Paix.


No, it was meant for the originating post, not for you. This sort of thread is bound to raise hackles.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> Still, I have no regrets having emmigrated to Canada 28 years and 3 days ago, or becoming a Canadian citizen back on July 1st, 1997.


Yet you talk about America very sentimentally, Dr. G. I saw your post where you said you're a conscientious objector. Are you able to return for visits? You really sound like a Jewish boy from Queens. There's still a lot of Nu Yawk left in you.

I was in Flushing today, in the area of Main St./ Northern Boulevard and Parsons. I had never heard of Historic Flushing before.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

This was from another post but on topic here. I think many American's have a sentimental longing ( me too I grew up on the border ) for "not this current America" 

Here's one



> What message is Washington giving world?
> 
> Washington – I took my kids to the nation's capital last weekend.
> 
> ...


Makes me sad. I can't imagine how devastating it is to many Americans


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Thanks for the clarification, IronMac. At the time, I did not really know what "trolling" meant, but MacDoc and Sonal claified this term. There seems to be a great deal of "trolling" these days. Sad, because important discussions get lost in arguements. Still, freedom of speech is even more important..........but it would be nice to see this freedom utilized with a bit more responsibility so that the messages were understood. Paix.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Miss Gulch, I grew up on 99th Street, just off of Queens Boulevard, in Rego Park/Forest Hills. It was used as the typical post-WWII Jewish neighborhood in Glazer and Moynehan's classic "Beyond the Melting Pot" book. I tell my students that my father made Archie Bunker sound like a linguistics prof (he was born in Brooklyn), and that most of the girls I knew in high school sounded like Fran Dreschler of "The Nanny" (since Flushing was her home as a girl).

I miss NYC, but I would not want to go back and live there now. I have become too acclimated to the pace of life here in St.John's. I just got back from a walk with my wife and ALL of our 5 dogs in Churchill Park, which is at the end of our cul-de-sac, and we left the doors unlocked for 30 minutes. Thus, no protection...........and also no fear of a break and enter. Parents let their children play out on the streets or in the park with little fear, knowing that most of the people in the neighborhood will watch out for these kids. 

No, I miss the sports and culture of NYC, but St.John's is my home. I did get a chance to vote for John Kerry, since the last place I lived was in Athens, Georgia and I was a registered voter there and even had the chance to vote for (and meet) Jimmy Carter. It seems like a lifetime ago.

Give my regards to Broadway...........


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Lately, I've been personally getting tired of everything that involves "us" vs. "them". I've made a personal decision to never think of anyone or any group as "them". 

The whole left wing / right wing debate that rages on and on and on here on ehMac has grown so tiresome to me. People create caricatures of people with opposing views on both sides of the fence. 

I can't think of everyone south of the border as "them" and paint a broad negative brush and give them the caricature of "Amerika". 

There are many, many redeeming qualities about America, millions of wonderful people, not to mention this wonderful Mac I'm working on that says "Designed in California".


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Well put, Mr. Mayor. I also support your position not to "pull the pin" on some of the threads, nor to ban persons who are expressing their points of view. However, I also agree with your contention that some of the debates that "rage" on here in ehMacLand have "... grown so tiresome to me." Paix.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

but just let someone dump on Bono and you'll really hear it from hiz hunour


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ehmax stated;


> I can't think of everyone south of the border as "them" and paint a broad negative brush and give them the caricature of "Amerika".


i don't think you understand the meaning of the word "Amerika"
it is not to demean the population at large, but to identify the growing fascism at the highest levels of government
- the love of war
- the raised importance of the m-i complex
- the lessening of cvil liberties
- the "with us or against us" mentality
- disdain for social programs for the "less than rich"

the evil that lurks in the hearts of men like Dick Cheney and Karl Rove (W's puppeteers) is so obvious that to not see it must mean that one is blind


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## Orion (Apr 16, 2004)

I can only surmise that the reason many feel disillusioned about America now is that they are able to remember how good (or at least "not so bad") it was just a short while ago. I don't claim any great knowledge of the country, but I have felt distinctly less comfortable each year while heading into Washington State. This year, I think, may have been my last.

To be fair, there are a few parts of the Lower Mainland that make me want to run screaming into the night


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> ehmax stated;
> 
> 
> i don't think you understand the meaning of the word "Amerika"
> ...


Not that I disagree with what you say in this post. However, it is my firm belief that America will shift its priorities over time. There is an ebb and flow in every democracy and the US is no different from ours.
Ontario elected Mike Harris for 8 years and he canibalised much of what was important to us. We just didn't know it was important until it was gone. Yet we re-elected him.
America is a great country, they will find their own way. Unfortunately, no amount of Canadian or Foreign bitching at them will move them any faster towards what will become the ultimate awakening. America never has and likely never will care about the opinions of the world unless it hits them in the pocketbook. That's part of makes them such a power.
I'm not even talking about a move to the left, but more a realization of what is truly important to them.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Vinnie Cappuccino said:


> I hope it will, I really don't think it will...


It will. America has been through this before.


> I like to hear their views on other cultures, especially their views on Canadian Culture.


LMAO And what "culture" would that be?


> I'm very surprized that more has not been done about the vote stealing machines,


What "vote stealing machines"?


> I hear that George Bush also wants to grow a Charlie Chaplin Moustache, hahahaa!


That doesn't even make any sense as a cheap shot.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i don't think you understand the meaning of the word "Amerika". it is not to demean the population at large,


If you don't think using that term "deameans the population at large", *you* are the one who doesn't understand the meaning of the word.


> but to identify the growing fascism at the highest levels of government


What "growing fascism"?


> - the love of war


Americans have always loved war.


> - the raised importance of the m-i complex


You're kidding, right? It's been *much* more important in the past than it is now.


> - the lessening of cvil liberties


Always happens in time of war and strife. You don't think Canada hasn't been through something similar and come out the other side relatively OK? What makes you think America won't do the same?


> - the "with us or against us" mentality


LOL That's *always* been an American trait.


> - disdain for social programs for the "less than rich"


See above.


> the evil that lurks in the hearts of men like Dick Cheney and Karl Rove (W's puppeteers) is so obvious that to not see it must mean that one is blind


"Evil" Hardly. Misguided? Perhaps.

I guess I'm blind, by your narrow definition.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

iPetie said:


> Ontario elected Mike Harris for 8 years and he canibalised much of what was important to us. We just didn't know it was important until it was gone. Yet we re-elected him.


I sometime wonder about statements like this, and the kind of assumptions that are implied in them. Because they clearly aren't warranted by the facts.

Harris made many changes to Ontario, no doubt about it. And they were so reviled by citizens they were ... re-elected? And when the Tories were finally booted the Liberals undid the damage by ... not re-implementing the cancelled programs?

Rae's policies were so loved that ... no one is calling for their re-implementation. Trudeau's policies were so loved that ... they were never re-implemented. Mulroney's policies were so hated that ... 3 successive Liberal governments have maintained and expanded them! (Transfer payment cuts, free trade, and the GST come to mind.)

If the things that were "so important to us" aren't returned, and the policies that we hated are maintained - what do we really want?

I think what the majority of Canadians really want, what the majority of the "left" think the majority wants, and what we all actually get are so different, I think Canada has some kind of "multiple ideology disorder."

(Oh yeah. Democracy.)


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

lpkmckenna said:


> I sometime wonder about statements like this, and the kind of assumptions that are implied in them. Because they clearly aren't warranted by the facts.
> 
> I think what the majority of Canadians really want, what the majority of the "left" think the majority wants, and what we all actually get are so different, I think Canada has some kind of "multiple ideology disorder."
> 
> (Oh yeah. Democracy.)


Poorly chosen words for sure but the example still holds merit. The Libs in Ontario were not elected based on the same platform as the "common sense revolution". What they did or do with the victory is really irrelevent to the point.

America will change coarse on their own. Whether they change for the good or bad is applicable only to the ideology each group or individual embraces.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ShawnKing said:


> If you don't think using that term "deameans the population at large", *you* are the one who doesn't understand the meaning of the word.
> 
> What "growing fascism"?
> 
> ...


living in a red state, i guess you'd be a good authority, eh? (canadian content)
if karl rove is only "misguided" then stalin was what? only made an error in judgement when killing millions, even more than hitler
puh-lease

Canada doesn't have a massive military lobby sucking at the teat of the gov't coffers and Canada doesn't invade countries on a whim (WMD count still = 0)

dick-head cheney was leader of a committee to find a suitable vice presidential candidate and guess what? he found himself ! "How conveeeenient" (in my best Church-lady voice)

if it's ok to have young and usually economically disadvantaged Americans die so that military hardware manufacturers can make more money and so that oil companies can live the high life well into the 22nd century, then i guess Amerika is ok by you

Why is it that the White House forbids pictures of flag draped coffins coming home? So that the diet of tv pablum isn't interrupted by images of the real war where people really die and are really maimed.

Here in Canada, we had 4 brave soliders die, at the hands of a U.S. revenge bent "top gun" (that just makes me laugh) weekend warrior and the whole country mourned
I guess we just haven't been conditioned to accept death for no reason and "collateral damage" doesn't make us feel any better about people dying

The U.S. and its current path of foreign (die if you say no) policy has made Amerika the biggest threat to world security since Stalin and his KGB/Politburo henchmen held hundreds of millions of people in the stasis of fear - sorta like in the U.S. now 

gun sales up and domestic crime is down - go figure, eh?

today's Homeland Security alert colour is "brown" to match their jackboots, shirts and ****


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> living in a red state, i guess you'd be a good authority, eh? (canadian content)
> if karl rove is only "misguided" then stalin was what? only made an error in judgement when killing millions, even more than hitler
> puh-lease
> 
> ...


Well said MACSPECRTRUM, it feels like Bush is pushing the US's policy of hemisphere control to a global one and that is a scary thing today it's Iraq and what 3rd world country is next on there agenda is still to be seen.

Laterz


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I have some American Friends, I even had a relationship with an American Female...Yikes! is that Anti American to say? When I hear Americans or British saying that all Muslims should Die, well, That gets My Hackles up, and I believe that this is a common feeling in America. Destroy all Commies! Wasn't that the sentiment last time!?


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> Canada doesn't have a massive military lobby sucking at the teat of the gov't coffers and Canada doesn't invade countries on a whim (WMD count still = 0)


Canada was a participant in the Manhattan Project. Here's a quote from a government of Canada website:



> The Canadian federal government has a long tradition of partnerships in S&T, dating back to the early days of the Manhattan Project, where a strong partnership between Canada and the Allies was of fundamental importance for the development of nuclear energy technology in Canada.


Source: http://www.innovation.gc.ca/gol/innovation/site.nsf/en/in05172.html

Two of the lead scienctists, Carson Mark and Louis Slotkin, were also from Canada.



MACSPECTRUM said:


> Here in Canada, we had 4 brave soliders die, at the hands of a U.S. revenge bent "top gun" (that just makes me laugh) weekend warrior and the whole country mourned.


Weekend warrior? A great many of Canada's peacekeepers overseas are reservists. Reservists make a sustantial contribution. Without them, an even more taxing burden of deployments would be imposed on Canada's Regular Force. Might I add that reservist institutions have been the bulwark of Canada's wartime engagements? The landing at Juno Beach, for example, included the Queen's Own Rifles, the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, and the Regina Rifles (all reserve units). Derogatory expressions like "weekend warrior" belong in the same dictionary of bigotry as "pinko," "***," or "rice-eater." Grow up.



MACSPECTRUM said:


> The U.S. and its current path of foreign (die if you say no) policy has made Amerika the biggest threat to world security since Stalin and his KGB/Politburo henchmen held hundreds of millions of people in the stasis of fear - sorta like in the U.S. now.


The biggests threat to world security since Stalin? Rubbish. To be sure, there is fear in the states of growing state power and abuse of that power, but it cannot be compared to the "millions of people in the stasis of fear" under Stalin. This kind of statement is exaggerated, unwarranted, and dilutes the misery that Stalin's victims endured. Get a clue.



MACSPECTRUM said:


> today's Homeland Security alert colour is "brown" to match their jackboots, shirts and ****


If anyone ever wonders why competent leftist intellectuals have trouble getting their opinions heard or heeded, it's because hyperbole like this from the "looney left" prevents the "literate left" from being taken seriously.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Americans have always loved war.


ShawnKing, I'm with the Canadians on this one. I don't think American mothers loved sending their children off to die in any war. Even asserting this idea makes the U.S. look bad. Yes, I'm concerned about how we come off. We are minority members on this board with a growing bad reputation. Yep, I'm a non-arrogant Yank interested in other countries and how they perceive us. 

As far as the politics goes, this too shall pass. Bush and cronies are already on the wane.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

Vinnie Cappuccino said:


> I have some American Friends, I even had a relationship with an American Female...Yikes! is that Anti American to say? When I hear Americans or British saying that all Muslims should Die, well, That gets My Hackles up, and I believe that this is a common feeling in AmeriKKKa. Destroy all Commies! Wasn't that the sentiment last time!?


Vinne, I went to take a look at that link. I don't think that site represents anything near the mainstream of society. I mean, you can find just about anything on the net if you look hard enough.

By comparison, there's a big difference between this (http://www.gotquestions.org/God-hates-****.html) and this (http://www.godhatesfags.com/). I don't agree with either, but only the second can be seen as hateful and dangerous.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Americans Love to belittle the People of the Countries that they Invade, A Poster on the Board that I linked called "Evil Dead" is in the Iraq war right now, he Posts about how he loves to feed pork to the Jawas. that's what the American military teaches their boys. And They are supposed to be helping these people out!? I understand that the American military is under a Lot of Stress, Hell, I would be too If I was stuck over there, but belittling people and calling them names so that it makes killin em easier... But that's how the Military is I guess


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I hope that these are not common feelings in the US... I pray that this is not how the people feel, I really do, but light does need to be shed on individuals that feel this way, because I dispise them, I'm just helping them with their Freedom of speech!


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> living in a red state, i guess you'd be a good authority, eh? (canadian content)


And that has to do with the discussion...in what way?


> if karl rove is only "misguided" then stalin was what? only made an error in judgement when killing millions, even more than hitler


Are you seriously comparing Karl Rove with Stalin and Hitler? Not only do you need a better sense of perspective but you devalue the evil those people have done by comparing them to the (assumed) stupidity of Karl Rove.


> Canada doesn't have a massive military lobby sucking at the teat of the gov't coffers
> 
> 
> > No, but we have a lot more things that do.
> ...


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MissGulch said:


> ShawnKing, I'm with the Canadians on this one.


LOL You'll have to be more specific. 


> I don't think American mothers loved sending their children off to die in any war.


Of course not. I was obviously generalizing.


> Even asserting this idea makes the U.S. look bad.


Yes, it does. It's one of the ways America looks bad. But they also look good in many other ways. No country, including America, is completely bad *or* completely good.


> As far as the politics goes, this too shall pass. Bush and cronies are already on the wane.


Agreed.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Vinnie Cappuccino said:


> but belittling people and calling them names so that it makes killin em easier...


Like calling them "AmeriKKKans"?

Pot, meet Kettle.....


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MissGulch said:


> ShawnKing, I'm with the Canadians on this one. I don't think American mothers loved sending their children off to die in any war. Even asserting this idea makes the U.S. look bad. Yes, I'm concerned about how we come off. We are minority members on this board with a growing bad reputation. Yep, I'm a non-arrogant Yank interested in other countries and how they perceive us.
> 
> As far as the politics goes, this too shall pass. Bush and cronies are already on the wane.


The Allies went off to war to fight the Nazis and fascists in Italy. Everyone on the Allied side believed it to be a just war. I won't bemoan the fact the the U.S. entered the war late. Let's just be happy they entered and helped the Allied cause.

Wars like Vietnam and Iraq don't have the same sort of blanket support because the people then, during Vietnam, and now, during Iraq, see how their government (for the people and by the people if you allow me to paraphrase) sends their youth off to die in some foreign land for some nebulous reason.

The U.S. Congress reported NO LINK between 9/11 and Iraq. So far (I doubt the search is continuing) the number of WMD found = 0.
Now the mantra is "nation building."

The U.S. military and gov't learned their hard lessons in Vietnam. Keep the picturs of U.S. coffins, U.S. dead and and the horrors of war away from the tv sets of the suburbs and support for will not waver. This strategy worked for quite a while. We shall see if it works for much longer.

I believe in the America that created the new deal. The America that built the infrastructure that became the life blood of the most successful and booming economy the world had ever knowsn.

I despise the Amerika where a CIA agent are outed because their spouse dare disagree with their gov't.
I despise the Amerika where war and death are answered with stoic resolve by a glorified village idiot who basically went AWOL during his military service to his country.
I despise the Amerika that builds prisions and guns while schools and teachers go without.
I despise the Amerika where the very notion national health care (health care regardless of ability to pay) is met with the same vitriol as kissing Stalin on the mouth.

I don't pray much anymore so I suggest to my blue state cousins to get drunk, find a partner and start making babies. Lots and lots of babies.

I hope that I shall live to see the day that the words of the famous Dr. Martin Luther King; "We shall overcome," echo through the corridors of power, shaking them to their very foundations. So much so, that this current face of fascism will be banished once and for all, never to be seen again.

It would almost make me believe in a deity.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> Really? Here's a better question - why doesn't the media show us pictures of those same bodies *before* they get put in the coffins? In other words, why do you think the media, if they want to show bodies, doesn't show them dead in the streets of Iraq?


Plenty pictures of dead Iraqis.

The US army is still imposing severe restrictions of what journalist can show.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

ShawnKing said:


> Are you seriously comparing Karl Rove with Stalin and Hitler? Not only do you need a better sense of perspective but you devalue the evil those people have done by comparing them to the (assumed) stupidity of Karl Rove.


Rove's role in Bush's success is more closely aligned with Hitler's Goebbels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

This AmeriKKKan stuff is very offensive. I was born and bred in the USA and I am not an AmeriKKKan. Some people like to rant and vent about what they dislike about the USA to the exclusion of what's good. Is it an inferiority complex or what? I don't get it.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> The U.S. military and gov't learned their hard lessons in Vietnam. Keep the picturs of U.S. coffins, U.S. dead and and the horrors of war away from the tv sets of the suburbs and support for will not waver.


Why do you keep letting the media off the hook on this one? They could show "the horrors of war" *easily if they wanted to.


> I despise the Amerika where CIA agents are outed because their spouses dare disagree with their gov't.


I "despise" people who assume they know what is going on using only the information that confirms what they already know.

Have you read Time magazine's account of the events you *think* you know about? There's no proof that Rove did any such thing. That's why there's a Special Prosecutor investigating the case.

I despise people who make assumptions based on too little information and "convict" someone before the courts do.


> I despise the Amerika where the very notion national health care (health care regardless of ability to pay) is met with the same vitriol as kissing Stalin on the mouth.


If you "despise" America because of that, your understanding of the situation and American feelings regarding "National Health Care" is woefully inadequate.


> I hope that I shall live to see the day that the words of the famous Dr. Martin Luther King; "We shall overcome," echo through the corridors of power, shaking them to their very foundations.


You won't.


> So much so, that this current face of fascism will be banished once and for all, never to be seen again.


America is in no way a "fascist state". Instead of throwing words around, why not find out what they mean first?


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

ShawnKing said:


> Like calling them "AmeriKKKans"?
> 
> Pot, meet Kettle.....


 Well, I said that they Call Iraqi people names like Jawas to take their Humanity from them, so that it makes killing those people easier, I would never try to Invade America, and I certinaly wouldnt try to kill any of them. 

An American named Easy E made up the name, I just think it is fitting, And interesting, to think about how the Southren part of the states seems to be more in control of the Country than the northren part. How Shareholder wealth seems more important than human rights, and the fact that years of Peace movements is being distroyed by this administration. No one deserves to die, we just have to believe and Know that we are all equal. We are all from the same mother, we all have the same energy flowing through us.

* Images From The War in Iraq ... Please note, some of the images are pretty graphic, and really hard to look at, there is a graphic Content section, so ya won't see any if you just click on the link. There are many photos just captioned "Eaten By Dogs"


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> The Allies went off to war to fight the Nazis and fascists in Italy. Everyone on the Allied side believed it to be a just war. I won't bemoan the fact the the U.S. entered the war late. Let's just be happy they entered and helped the Allied cause.
> 
> Wars like Vietnam and Iraq don't have the same sort of blanket support because the people then, during Vietnam, and now, during Iraq, see how their government (for the people and by the people if you allow me to paraphrase) sends their youth off to die in some foreign land for some nebulous reason.


I see what you wrote, but this is what I understood: 
The war to prevent fascism from conquering the world was a "just war." 
The war to prevent communism from conquering the world was "nebulous."

Time for me to be a little cynical here. 
The inhabitants of eastern Europe were being tormented and oppressed by a couple of murdering despots. The west, descendants of these nations, gave up their sons to be slaughtered, so that future generations of east and west could live free.

One the other hand, the inhabitants of south east Asian were being tormented and oppressed by a couple of murdering despots. The west somewhat half-heartedly lent a handful of their sons to fight back, and pulled them out when they realized that the freedom of some pissy little jungle nation wasn't worth the blood of their sons. 

The western world has dedicated its military might to the successful continuation of western civilization. The bastard child of the western world, Marxism, gave up on the west and sought to wreck its havoc in the non-western (and definitely non-white) nations of Asian, Africa, and South America, but the western intellectuals described it as "self-actualization" and "peasant uprisings." Marxism going to Asia was like the rabbits imported to Australia.

The progressive-minded "social democrats" of the west don't want its flock to believe this is how it happened. But it did. The fact that the west turned away from the devastation of communism was motivated by the colour of its victims.

Do I support conscription? No, it is evil. Do I think we shouldn't have fought Hitler, or than we should have been in Vietnam? No, I think Hitler was a direct threat to Canada, but I do not think that communism in Vietnam was. So what are you saying?

I'm saying that latent racism is everywhere, in every nation, every ideology, and every heart. I'm saying the world was ready to believe the lies of the left and forget about the victims of communism because those victims were yellow, brown, and black.



MACSPECTRUM said:


> The U.S. military and gov't learned their hard lessons in Vietnam. Keep the picturs of U.S. coffins, U.S. dead and and the horrors of war away from the tv sets of the suburbs and support for will not waver. This strategy worked for quite a while. We shall see if it works for much longer.


Perhaps the struggle again Germany would have been different had it been broadcast on tv?



MACSPECTRUM said:


> I don't pray much anymore so I suggest to my blue state cousins to get drunk, find a partner and start making babies. Lots and lots of babies.


This sounds like something from a Nazi pamphlet, like the three "K"s. The best thing women can do for their country is provide it with more children! And the fact that you mentioned cousins, drinking, and sex in the same sentence just grossed me out. I don't know, is it the red states or the blue states with the inbred hillbillies?



MACSPECTRUM said:


> I hope that I shall live to see the day that the words of the famous Dr. Martin Luther King; "We shall overcome," echo through the corridors of power, shaking them to their very foundations. So much so, that this current face of fascism will be banished once and for all, never to be seen again.


Don't volunteer for writing speeches. Political oratory isn't your forte.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MissGulch said:


> This AmeriKKKan stuff is very offensive. I was born and bred in the USA and I am not an AmeriKKKan. Some people like to rant and vent about what they dislike about the USA to the exclusion of what's good. Is it an inferiority complex or what? I don't get it.


Yes, it is an inferiority complex. All name-calling is motivated by a desire to enhance one's self-worth by minimizing the worth of others.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

IronMac said:


> This sort of thread is bound to raise hackles.


Actually, this thread seems to have been started for no other purpose. I mean, seriously, a "vote Bush in 2004" poster? It's 2005! The damage, whatever it may be, is already done.



Macspectrum said:


> Why is it that the White House forbids pictures of flag draped coffins coming home? So that the diet of tv pablum isn't interrupted by images of the real war where people really die and are really maimed.


IIRC, it's not so much about keeping coffins off the nightly news, it's about keeping photos of the dead from being used in any way that might demean them. A notion I agree with.

The lack of real war coverage in the US these days is pretty much the fault of the media. They could show all kinds of stuff that they don't, and they do so because people (note: not just Americans) attention spans have shortened to the point where anythig other than a soundbite goes largely ignored.

The paradox is which got shorter first, the news bites or the attention spans?



ShawnKing said:


> No country, including America, is completely bad *or* completely good.


I concur.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I heared on the Radio that the term, “War on Terror” is being phased out and replaced with the “Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism.”??? I have edited the posts that people found offensive, I would like our new neighbours to stay, as their imput makes the community a better place.


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

Vinnie Cappuccino said:


> I heared on the Radio that the term, “War on Terror” is being phased out and replaced with the “Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism.”???


First of all, you can't "phase out" a term. We can use pretty much any terms we want.

As to it being replaced, that was a Jon Stewart Daily Show bit that has been taken seriously, apparently.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

really....
U.S. Officials Retool Slogan for Terror War
By ERIC SCHMITT and THOM SHANKER
Published: July 26, 2005

WASHINGTON, July 25 - The Bush administration is retooling its slogan for the fight against Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups, pushing the idea that the long-term struggle is as much an ideological battle as a military mission, senior administration and military officials said Monday.

In recent speeches and news conferences, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and the nation's senior military officer have spoken of "a global struggle against violent extremism" rather than "the global war on terror," which had been the catchphrase of choice. Administration officials say that phrase may have outlived its usefulness, because it focused attention solely, and incorrectly, on the military campaign.

Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the National Press Club on Monday that he had "objected to the use of the term 'war on terrorism' before, because if you call it a war, then you think of people in uniform as being the solution." He said the threat instead should be defined as violent extremists, with the recognition that "terror is the method they use."

Although the military is heavily engaged in the mission now, he said, future efforts require "all instruments of our national power, all instruments of the international communities' national power." The solution is "more diplomatic, more economic, more political than it is military," he concluded.

Administration and Pentagon officials say the revamped campaign has grown out of meetings of President Bush's senior national security advisers that began in January, and it reflects the evolution in Mr. Bush's own thinking nearly four years after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Mr. Rumsfeld spoke in the new terms on Friday when he addressed an audience in Annapolis, Md., for the retirement ceremony of Adm. Vern Clark as chief of naval operations. Mr. Rumsfeld described America's efforts as it "wages the global struggle against the enemies of freedom, the enemies of civilization."

The shifting language is one of the most public changes in the administration's strategy to battle Al Qaeda and its affiliates, and it tracks closely with Mr. Bush's recent speeches emphasizing freedom, democracy and the worldwide clash of ideas.

"It is more than just a military war on terror," Steven J. Hadley, the national security adviser, said in a telephone interview. "It's broader than that. It's a global struggle against extremism. We need to dispute both the gloomy vision and offer a positive alternative."

The language shifts also come at a time when Mr. Bush, with a new appointment for one of his most trusted aides, Karen Hughes, is trying to bolster the State Department's efforts at public diplomacy.

Lawrence Di Rita, Mr. Rumsfeld's spokesman, said the shift in language "is not a shift in thinking, but a continuation of the immediate post-9/11 approach."

"The president then said we were going to use all the means of national power and influence to defeat this enemy," Mr. Di Rita said. "We must continue to be more expansive than what the public is understandably focused on now: the military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq."

By emphasizing to the public that the effort is not only military, the administration may also be trying to reassure those in uniform who have begun complaining that only members of the armed forces are being asked to sacrifice for the effort.

New opinion polls show that the American public is increasingly pessimistic about the mission in Iraq, with many doubting its link to the counterterrorism mission. So, a new emphasis on reminding the public of the broader, long-term threat to the United States may allow the administration to put into broader perspective the daily mayhem in Iraq and the American casualties.

Douglas J. Feith, the under secretary of defense for policy, said in an interview that if the nation's efforts were limited to "protecting the homeland and attacking and disrupting terrorist networks, you're on a treadmill that is likely to get faster and faster with time." The key to "ultimately winning the war," he said, "is addressing the ideological part of the war that deals with how the terrorists recruit and indoctrinate new terrorists."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/27/opinion/smith/main712317.shtml

http://slate.msn.com/id/2123412/?nav=ais

Project G-Save, Sounds like a buncha super heros, I Love Marketing, are ERIC SCHMITT and THOM SHANKER, John Stewart's writers???


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> As to it being replaced, that was a Jon Stewart Daily Show bit that has been taken seriously, apparently.


A bit using the real players (Donald Rumsfeld), Shawn you actually see the piece from Jon Stewart?


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## ShawnKing (Mar 21, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> A bit using the real players (Donald Rumsfeld), Shawn you actually see the piece from Jon Stewart?


Every night. Should be mandatory watching.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

ShawnKing said:


> Every night. Should be mandatory watching.


I knew it would be easy to agree on something.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> *Senate Approves Bill Protecting Gun Businesses*
> 
> By CARL HULSE
> WASHINGTON, July 29 - The Senate agreed to shield gun manufacturers and dealers from liability lawsuits on Friday, as Congress broke for a monthlong recess after sending President Bush energy and transportation bills that had been years in the making.
> ...


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/30/p...&en=b911e0ebd5cf3932&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Tell me again about peaceable..... 800- 900% higher murder rate than any other first world nation and who do THEY protect...........the gun merchants.

And you can be damn sure YOU know who THEY are.........


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

I guess the gun people must have hired better lobbyists than the tobacco people.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Guns Don't kill people, People With Guns Kill People! the Constitutional right to carry arms is like the way people can misinterpret holy scriptures, applying ancient logic to the challenges of today. A lot of Americans like their guns, they hang their shotguns on the wall and hide their handguns in the Dresser drawer. Doesn't this help illustrate that these huge weapons manufacturing companies are in control?! I will try to watch more John Stewart I guess, never really got to see that show.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

"The Senate agreed to shield gun manufacturers and dealers from liability lawsuits ( ... ) would prohibit lawsuits against gun makers and distributors for misuse of their products during the commission of a crime. Senate supporters said the plan was needed to protect the domestic firearms industry from a rash of lawsuits that threatened its economic future."

Americans are a very litigious lot. It sometimes seems that "the ablity to sue anybody for anything" is one of the great weaknesses of the common law tradition. If someone were to rob my house, with a crowbar to get thru the door and a handgun to deal with any suprises, should I be able to sue the manufacturer of the crowbar?

"This bill is intended to do one thing and that is to end the abuse that is now going on in the court system of America against law-abiding American businesses when they violate no law."

You can do a lot of things that are fully legal yet get sued for it. Here in Ontario, if you drink enough to be legally intoxicated and drive home from the bar, killing people and destroying property as you do, the bar owner may be held accountable for doing what is fully legal: selling alcohol. Does that make sense? Before you say yes, remember that if you served drinks at a party in your home and someone drove home drunk, you too could be held accountable. Does that make sense?

"Democratic opponents of the bill disputed the assertion that a lawsuit crisis threatened the industry and said that the measure was simply a reflection of the National Rifle Association's influence over Congress."

I suppose it is. But can the Democrats, or anyone here, tell me why gun manufacturers and distributors should be held accountable for someone else's crimes?

The whole purpose of a civil case is to measure blame and ration out compensation. If a plantiff wishes to sue a gun manufacturer or gun sellers, they should be able to. Providing "protection" to gun manufaturers assumes they are innocent. Fine, but the presumption of innocence is a characteristic of criminal law, not civil. In a civil case, the whole purpose of the litigation and trial is to measure the blame. If we can legally claim that gun manufaturers and gun distributors are "blameless," we grant a licence to them for callous disregard without fear of being held accountable. This may protect the industry from "legal abuse," but who will protect the common person from abuse by them?

The issue here is really who can sue whom and for what. If the legal system is being abused, the legal system must be reformed. You cannot improve anything with a band-aid, particularily a band-aid that only the manufacturers and distributors of firearms can enjoy.

But it is not just the firearms industry that has been looking for protection from lawsuits. The medical and pharmacuetical industries have been dealing with undue legal cases for years. The tobbaco industry sells a fully legal product, but they have spent years in court. Should they be insulated from civil cases too?

Remember when "no fault" insurance came to Ontario? The purpose was to clean-out the glut of frivolous lawsuits that was accumulating. Many conservatives and liberals opposed this, that the legal rights of accident victims was being taken away.

I strongly suspect people who support the banning of cases against firearms firm are as adamantly opposed to the banning of cases against bad drivers. (And vice versa.) Why is this so.

Our legal system is thoroughly broken. We all hear the stories of the rich settling lawsuits because it is cheaper than the legal fees of winning. How did justice become so expensive?

Yet we never hear calls for the "nationalization" of laywers. Many lawyers are left-of-center. They would never allow the legal system to do to them what it did to doctors. Goose, meet Gander.

I fail to see what any of this has to do with "Amerika." The banning of private ownership of firearms is one the behaviours typical of a fascist state. Is someone trying to say that private gun ownership leads to dictatorship? Or is this about the protection of companies from lawsuits?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

While I agree in general principals that there is too much "lawyering" going on - in particular in the US ( 1000 times more than Japan per capita ) I think if you look at the details of someof the lawsuits you'll see the basis is not without merit.

Semi autos that require like a paper clip to switch to full auto. Openly supporting back channel gun distribution ( remember the cigarette company that got nailed on that ). Refusal to embrace technology such as smart guns etc.

Fascist states generally have a quasi military militia for purposes where "official gov retribution" might be embarrassing so the disarmed populace doesn't cut it - how THIS fits with fascism very well is industry - especially arms industries - cozying up to gov and THAT is certainly the case. Cronyism.

Fascination, neurotic focus on with all things military and patriotic are also strong indicators. Seen an NRA rally???


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> While I agree in general principals that there is too much "lawyering" going on - in particular in the US ( 1000 times more than Japan per capita ) I think if you look at the details of someof the lawsuits you'll see the basis is not without merit.


Thank you for that.



MacDoc said:


> Semi autos that require like a paper clip to switch to full auto. Openly supporting back channel gun distribution ( remember the cigarette company that got nailed on that ). Refusal to embrace technology such as smart guns etc.


Couldn't these issues be deal with more easily with specific legislation rather than all-embracing gun control laws? 



MacDoc said:


> Fascist states generally have a quasi military militia for purposes where "official gov retribution" might be embarrassing so the disarmed populace doesn't cut it - how THIS fits with fascism very well is industry - especially arms industries - cozying up to gov and THAT is certainly the case. Cronyism.


The arms industry is very cozy with the state in all forms of government. It is impossible for private citizens to amass the innumerable types of weapons employed by the army, navy, airforce, RCMP, local and provincial police, intelligence agencies, the northern rangers, etc. While the principle of capitalism is essentially private ownership of business for private purchase by consumers, the reality is that some industries manufacture goods which only the state is likely to purchase (tanks are a clearer example here). For all intents and purposes, the arms industry depends on the state, and will lobby for whatever it can in terms of laws, exceptions, funds for research, you name it. They will assert that health of their company is essential for national security. Some legislatures will even buy this kind of talk. The relationship between the state and the arms industry will alway be parasitical, regardless of the type of government. 

I don't see this legislative protection as proof of a rising fascism; it is simple greed.



MacDoc said:


> Fascination, neurotic focus on with all things military and patriotic are also strong indicators. Seen an NRA rally???


"Fascination ... with all things military and patriotic" is way too vague to be applicable to anyone. I mean, we've seen how a nation like China has a parade, hauling missiles down the street. I don't think they are fascists (not even "red fascists" as some intellectuals describe Marxism.) The military is an essential part of any society, and in some nations (Isreal and Switzerland) the military is even more entrenched in everyday life than here. And if by patriotism you mean myopic nationalism I would agree. But ordinary citizens everywhere tend to believe that their own nation is the best in the world and defend that vigorously, regardless of political views. I'm sure the Swedes are intensely patriotic.

Besides, condemning overly patriotic Americans as fascists is easy. In Canada, it often appears to be the conservatives looking to make Canada more like the US, leading to charges of being traitors and unpatriotic. (See Mel Hurtig or David Orchard for this kind of talk.) In this light, it is the Liberals who appear to have "neurotic focus on things patriotic." See how easy it is to turn stuff around?

------

I have to shift off topic for a second. You spoke of "neurotic focus." This term is not applicable to any political debate. Neurosis is an older term in psychiatry refering to any mental illness that produced unreasonable emotions or beliefs, but generally was non-severe and did not impede normal living. Depression or an eating disorder or obsessive-compulsive disorder were neurosis. Contrasted with this were psychosis, major mental illnesses impeding functioning or even living.

These designations are no longer used much. A person with multiple personality disorder can live a very normal life, even with out being detected, while many persons with depression or bulimia eventually kill themselves. So much for "major" and "minor" illnesses.

I object to any use of psychiatric or psychological pathology in political discussion. There is no relationship between the beliefs held by someone and their mental health. While I do suspect that many murdering despots were indeed psychotic (meaning severely mentally unheathy), the majority of their flock were not. To tell someone they have a "neurotic focus" on something is to make a mental diagnosis of them. Are you a doctor? Are you really able to evaluate the mental health of someone you may not have even met?

The issue which condemns despotic governments is not allegations of damaged mental functioning, but their belief in using others as slaves, denying them freedom, dignity, and justice.

The root of tyranny is not illness, but ruthlessness.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I don't see this legislative protection as proof of a rising fascism; it is simple greed.


We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order.
- Adolf Hitler

and I know I'm going off tangent, but another one attributed to Hitler

I shall give a propagandist reason for starting the war, no matter whether it is plausible or not. The victor will not be asked afterwards, whether he told the truth or not. When starting and waging war it is not right that matters but victory. Close your hearts to pity. Act brutally, eighty million people must obtain what is their right. Their existence must be made secure. The strongest man is right.
- Adolf Hitler


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order.
> - Adolf Hitler


Quoting Hitler is like quoting a madman. He would say just about anything. His "ideology" was shifting constantly. It didn't matter, as Hitler would do whatever he wished to. His principle interest was quelling dissenters and the Jews.

I've seen may quotes from Hitler, both defending and defaming Christianity, sometimes defending capitalism and sometimes advocating socialism, sometimes claiming to be a democrat. I've even read Hitler stating that communism and fascism were "basically the same!"

If you're trying to identify fascism with capitalism, don't waste your time. It don't matter how much Adam Smith, or Ludwig von Mises, or Milton Friedman you read, you won't find any advocacy of fascism. These men believed in liberal democracy thru and thru.

Besides, socialism is a dead movement. Virtually all social democratic and labour parties, as well as the bulk of the leftist intelligentsia, now accept "socialized capitalism" as an achievable goal. It can be safely claimed that "we're all capitalists now." (Nod to J.S. Mill.) 

Here is the "red book" of the Nazi party going into an election. With exception of the anti-semitic stuff, is reads like a typical labour party platform from that time: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/document/nca_vol4/1708-ps.htm



MACSPECTRUM said:


> and I know I'm going off tangent, but another one attributed to Hitler
> I shall give a propagandist reason for starting the war, no matter whether it is plausible or not. The victor will not be asked afterwards, whether he told the truth or not. When starting and waging war it is not right that matters but victory. Close your hearts to pity. Act brutally, eighty million people must obtain what is their right. Their existence must be made secure. The strongest man is right.
> - Adolf Hitler


Chilling to the bone.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

lpkmckenna said:


> Chilling to the bone.


_When starting and waging war it is not right that matters but victory._

Yeah, sorta like the invasion of Iraq.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

ipk - you think a national murder rate 8 or 9 times the average for the first world isn't pathological.........!!!!!!!!

Where did I speak of "all embracing gun control laws". If a manufacturer is clearly not taking steps ( 3 wheeled atvs come to mind ) to make it's products "safe" for use and not subject easy alteration to make them exceedingly dangerous, then they need to be either regulated effectively or sued into compliance or both.

Yes fascist elements are present in most societies ( I would argue Tibet prior to the Chinese invasion had little or none ) and in particular in military or quasi military organizations such as the police - hence the need for oversight and checks and balances.

Politics, polity and police share similar roots and fascism is a deep rooted danger no matter what the economic underpinnings of the government in question.

If you want, subsititute "focused anxiety" tho neurosis fits just fine in that context as a unhealthy fixation, maybe not to a pyschotic level tho it's arguable that there's lots of evidence of that as well in the certain portions of the American citizenry.

Using "all governments do it" as an excuse for the kind of international malfeasance the US has undertaken through much of it's history is a cop out.
It's especially critical right now with dwindling resources, populations peaking that internationalism and cooperation be promoted, not jingoism and wanton destruction of international treaties and efforts to bring due process to the international arena.

Europe is struggling to bring this about after two massive wars taught the goverments the need for less nationalism and more integration. It's no easy task but critical for peacable relations.
There will always be frictions and there is need for international organizations to act as arbitors.

There are a number of characteristics of a state trending to fascism. The US is well along that road in many areas and one of them is fascination and focus on weaponry and military.
Why are battlefields "hallowed ground".
If you want an "American's own" view of the some of these issues catch Silver City sometime.

There are offsetting forces in the US but right now they are being drowned out.

One of the nicest things on the redoing of Kennedy Space centre was to see it embrace the International Space effort over the years - celebrating the efforts of ALL the nations including Russia.

It was no coincidence the US Nazi party was the largest outside Germany. The elements were there, are there.

In this note about the history of eugenics is it concidence the phrasing??


> Looking back from the new millennium, Galton's philosophy of human progress looks sinister when set against the excesses of 20th century racism. Twenty years after his death, Galton's eugenics vision had mutated into the Nazi nightmare of 'racial cleansing'. If he wasn't turning in his grave, then he certainly should have been. To be fair, Galton never embraced *the extreme measures that were adopted by later eugenicists in Germany, America* and elsewhere


http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/life/biog_galton.html

Sure elsewhere.......but what are the TWO mentioned by name....Nazi and US......and that's a US science site doing so.

Pathological??????...you bet.........at a number of levels.
Fascism?????? - Growing and even in the view of many of it's own citizens......both everyman and famous.

Much here

http://www.thinkingpeace.com/pages/arts2/arts244.html

http://www.thinkingpeace.com/pages/arts2/arts257.html



> Results 1 - 10 of about 132 from thinkingpeace.com for fascism


One site, 132 mentions of fascism ......and articles by the likes of John Kenneth Glabraith and even our own Naomi Klein and many many more both American and international. Highly regarded, concerned and with often powerful positions and voices.

The threat of fascism in the US is not something to slough off as "oh it happens everywhere......all nations do it".......blah blah.

In my mind and that of many others, it's a far far greater magnitude threat to the first world than acts of terrorism much of which is rooted in misguided foreign policy but given the stresses of population and equalities of wealth will likely always be present in some form.
Just look at Japan.

Fortunately many citizens in the US and others around the world do NOT lose sight of the real threat.......to civil liberties by fascist elements within their own countries.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> ipk - you don't think a national murder rate 8 or 9 times the average for the first world isn't pathological.........!!!!!!!!


Excellent use of punctuation! I think I get the point!

I think it's unsettling. But whose pathology are we talking about? The murderers? The docile cattle who elect politicians who do nothing about it? And we were not even discussing the murder rate, unless you think it was implied in a discussion about guns.

It's important to remember, our crime rate is also much higher than Europe's. Are we pathological, too?



MacDoc said:


> Where did I speak of "all embracing gun control laws". If a manufacturer is clearly not taking steps ( 3 wheeled atvs come to mind ) to make it's products "safe" for use and not subject easier alteration to mek them exceedingly dangerous then they need to be either regulated effectively or sued into compliance or both.


You misunderstand me. If smart-guns are required, write a law requiring them. If easily alterable semi-automatic weapons are a danger, write a law to ban them. That's what I meant when I said "specific legislation." Part of the problem with the way laws get drafted in the US is that they are over-encompassing instead of small and specific.

By the way, who will do the suing into compliance? The state? Citizen's group? PETA? I'm just curious.



MacDoc said:


> Using the excuse "all governments do it" as an excuse for the kind of international malfeasance the US has undertaken through much of it's history is a cop out.


I don't remember saying that. Let me check what I wrote. (Goes to check) Nope, I never said that.

If you're talking about the relationship between arms businesses and the government, I wasn't justifying it by saying "all governments do it," but that all governments must do it. That's a big distinction. The point I was making is that the arms manufacturer's almost sole client is the state. If not this state, a foreign one. Private purchases are a small minority. As such, interaction between them is as natural and expected as a relation between the cow farmer and the milk man.



MacDoc said:


> It's especially critical right now with dwindling resources, populations peaking that interantionalism and cooperation be promotied, not jingoism and wanton destruction of international treaties and efforts to bring due process to the international arena.


I don't know who you're talking to. This isn't related to anything I posted.



MacDoc said:


> Europe is struggling to bring this about after two massive wars taught the goverments the need for less nationalism and more integration. It's no easy task but critical for peacable relations.
> There will always be frictions and there is need for international organizations to act as arbitors.


I suppose. Which organization should we choose? Perhaps we should emulate Europe? Canada, the US, and Mexico could create a new federalism. And maybe Cuba and Panama, too. By the way, how do you think Taiwan and Tibet feel about this talk of "less nationalism and more integration?"



MacDoc said:


> It was no coincidence the US Nazi party was the largest outside Germany. The elements were there, are there.


And in France, and Italy, and England (though the blackshirts were a long time ago). France and Italy even have far-right political parties sitting in their legislatures right now. Unfortunately, reading this board confirms elements of it here in Canada, too.



MacDoc said:


> One site 132 mentions of fascism......and articles by the likes of John Kenneth Glabraith and even our own Naomi Klein and many many more both American and international. Highly regarded, concerned and with often pwoerful positions and voices.
> 
> The threat of fascism in the US is not something to slough off as "oh it happens everywhere......all nations do it".......blah blah.


Who said that? Not me! I would never say and have never said any such thing.



MacDoc said:


> In my mind and that of many others it's a far far greater magnitude threat to the first world than acts of terrorism much of which is rooted in misguided foreign policy but given the stresses of population and equalities of wealth will likely always be present in some form.


We are not going to agree on this one. The US is not a greater threat to the first world than the terrorists. I wouldn't want to be an Iraqi, though.



MacDoc said:


> Just look at Japan.


What am I supposed to be seeing?



MacDoc said:


> Fortunately many citizens in the US and others around the world do NOT lose sight of the real threat.......to civil liberties by fascist elements within their own countries.


I have never lost sight of the sacredness of our freedom. Just as importantly, I remember that the enemies of civil rights come from many zones, not just fascist elements.

To give an example: eugenics One of the most prominent leftists in American history, Margaret Sanger had the courage to defy the law and promote knowledge of sexuality and contraceptives, and eventually founded Planned Parenthood. She is also led the crusade to legalize abortion.

Oh, and she was a racist and an advocate of eugenics.



Margaret Sanger said:


> "The campaign for birth control is not merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims of eugenics."
> "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda", Birth Control Review, October 1921, page 5.


I still admire Sanger, despite some of her noxious views, because the good she brought outweighs the evil she advocated.

Opps, you don't like "biblical terms" like evil. Unfortunately, I never met Sanger and I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't feel justified in calling her "pathological."


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

By the way, it isn't ipkmckenna, it's lpkmckenna.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

One more addendum. You say Amerika is approaching fascism. Ok.

I posted this elsewhere, but I thought it would be appropriate here too.

To further reinforce my caution about using this term too loosely, what would you call a national leader who:

1. Used conscription to force young men into a battle on another continent, despite that fact that their own continent had not even been attacked;
2. Broadcast propaganda about the enemy in print, films, and even comic books;
3. Rounded up visible minorities suspected to support their homeland;
4. Developed weapons of mass destruction for intended use on civilians;
5. Worked to reorganized the highest court to ensure more sympathetic decisions;
6. Gave money to a government that was killing millions of its own citizens.

Fascist? Or the most popular and left-wing president in US history? And certainly Bush hasn't nearly approximated these "achievements."


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

I forgot you mentioned Naomi Klein. Did you know that in her book "no logo" she claimed that the presence of Macs in the classrooms of the US was an example of "corporate brainwashing?" Seriously.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Bush and Rove and closer to Bert and Ernie than to most fascists, despite claims to the contrary.


closer to Bert and Ernie than to most fascists?
what colour is the sky in your universe?


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I would worry more about the Coke and Pepsi machines that brainwash kids into thinking those products should actually be ingested rather than the Apple logo. I'm sure that's in there to though.


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