# The Next Chapter in the Fraud of the 407 ETR



## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

> *Ontario to expand part of Highway 407*
> 
> The government of Ontario is getting back into the toll highway business, announcing it will own the planned expansion of the privately run Highway 407.
> 
> ...


TheStar.com | Ontario | Ontario to expand part of Highway 407

This is ridiculous. They are going to toll people even further on the road they built.

The ETR is up there with one of the biggest government scams in the history of Canada. Harris built it for something like $5 Billion and then leased it to a company on a 99 yr contract for $3 Billion. He must have got a nice facilitators fee that for that one. 

The McGuilty comes around and wants to charge us more for extending a road that the tax payers of Ontario have already paid for two times over! Once to build it and again in fees.

This is sickening. 

Harris was up there with Bush if you ask me. McGuilty is like a weak VP who doesn't have the gonads to anything to fix it. Just plays along and white washes the picture...


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Like it or not, toll highways are probably going to multiply. You may have legit grievances about how they are initially funded, then operated and maintained - but let's face it, you don't just build them and walk away. They cost a ton of money to maintain and repair, especially in this climate, especially with the massive traffic loads we impose on them. Someone has to pay for it.

All sorts of public-use facilities have hidden costs we pay for - major airport maintenance and expansion and the 400 series highways, to name two. Better that we get into a more transparent system of user-pay, don't you think?


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

I personally like the 407..the rates could be a bit cheaper, but I likem the fact that I can get from one end of the city to the other avoiding traffic. If you don't like it; then you have the 401. If it weren't for the 407, the 401 would be even more busier and everyone would complain even more.

Think of it as a two tiered health care system; which I would also like to see. Those who can pay for service can do so and in turn the free route is sped up. It's win-win.


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## RM1234 (Jan 19, 2010)

Yes a highway across the city is a good thing. But .. the 407 etr as it is run is simply unconscionable.

This is a company that has violated most common business ethics and has somehow managed to get a green light on ignoring many common corporate and business laws. As an example. Canadian bankruptcy law. 

They have received an exemption that no other entitity in Canada has attained. They are exempt from having 407 etr debts included in personal bankruptcies. The reason is that they apparently cannot determine the credit worthieness of their clients before providing their service. While businesses like lawyers, doctors, dentists, auto repair shops, computer consultants, physiotherapists, plumbers, tradesman, carpenters, caterering companies, home repair, furnace installers, etc etc .. routinly cannot or do not run credit bureaus on their clients ... for some reason an either corrupt or incompetent judiciary (and politicians) have allowed the 407 etr to ignore canadian bankruptcy law. Setting the stage btw for an inevitable supreme court of canada standoff between the ontario government/407 etr against the crown. It will happen god willing.

This is a road surrounded by bureaucracy, multiple levels of "managment" ( i use that term loosely), call centres .. etc ... rediculous. If we were paying for use of a road for 50 cents a trip than great .. but we are paying 20, 40 or 60 dollars a ride. Not to mention their incredible interest and penalty rates. There are people that have had their bills balloon thousands of times just because of penalties and interest.

Some private citizens in this province owe the etr $20,000 $30,000 even $40,000. They have no method of reasonably getting rid of this debt or even disputing it with the etr... who btw charges $100 each time you decide try to appeal a decision on your bill with them.

This is unconscionable in our society. It is a road. It is modern day fraud. It is modern day corruption and needs to be stopped. (IMHO of course 

Fee for service is excellent in theory. If it is not followed up by reductions in public payrolls and their related service providors then its just a new tax.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

You know I have heard the complaints of the billing system of the 407, but no one I know has actually had an issue that could not be resolved quickly. I had a billing sent to me and I complained that it was not me. They checked the film, asked me what vehicle I drove I told them [ it wasn't me ] and it was fixed right there and then. No issues.

To me, if you don't like the 407 don't use it .... this will do two things, if everyone ignores it, the price will drop, but more importantly, if you don't use it there is no issue to complain. I've used it many times and found it to be exceptional, especially if you have a road side problem. I guess it is like everything else, some have good experiences and some do not. From my perspective, if you don't like paying for the use of the road .... don't use it.


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## RM1234 (Jan 19, 2010)

I forgot to add ... where did fiduciary responsibility go in this country? 

Why is it that a company that provides an "essential service" is allowed to pay wall street like wages to its managment? 

Why is it that a road is allowed to spend tens of millions on advertising? 

Why is it that a road is allowed to operate no expenses spared?

Why is it that a road run as an essential service is allowed to operate at a profit when historically entities like natural gas and electricity delivery are required to run break even?

What happened to toll roads that were run by some guy in some down rent office who went out to pick up tolls in a dusty 20 year old pickup truck. Put that guy back in charge. We can't afford the people running this stuff anymore.


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## RM1234 (Jan 19, 2010)

@ RPS .. Its not that simple. 

The 407 is now an essential artery for some commuters. It is inevitable that most consumers of that service will run into issues with the 407 etrs billing system at some point. Either they move, miss a payment, or i know this NEVER happens.. the 407's billing system spits out some eronious billings...

Things happen in day to day life. Bankruptcies, billing mistakes, spousal disputes, stollen cars, stollen plates, accidental usage.... you can't allow a company to profit under every circumstance. 

Bottom line: As a good corporate citizen it has to bare its share of the burden of modern society and should not be exempt from the down side of the cost of doing business. It operates to the detriment of all other creditors in society.

It also operates with penalty and interest rates that would be illegal for many companies in other jurisdictions. These rates are not known to the average consumer until they run into an issue. You could have a $10 bill, move .. go to renew your plate and have a bill for $100. .... 1000% thats just wrong.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> The McGuilty comes around and wants to charge us more for extending a road that the tax payers of Ontario have already paid for two times over! Once to build it and again in fees.


What are you talking about? No one has paid for a road that's not even built yet and you'll only be paying additional toll for the portion travelled. Do you even use the ETR?

But I do agree that the whole ETR fiasco is a boondoggle. The initial plan was for a free Toronto By-Pass for traffic (especially commercial traffic) traveling the Windsor-Montreal corridor. This would have eliminated much of the through tractor-trailer traffic off the 401 during peak times. 

As it turned out, a decision was made to make it an unmanned electronic toll road requiring a transponder. That immediately eliminated most commercial through traffic because all commercial vehicles were required to have a transponder due to the inability of the system to deal with trailer license plates from the US, other provinces as well as rental and lease trailers, steamship container chassis, rail trailers, etc. Good bye by-pass.

Next stupidity was to sell it (lease it) to a foreign conglomerate. I've seen my personal transponder go from $15/yr to $35 and my toll charges increase by 50%. 

Our company's bill for ETR usage was $24,000 a month and we (all the transport drivers) were asked to reduce the ETR usage. So now, each day, I take the 401 outbound, but use the 407 on the return journey because it saves at least an hour of travel.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

RM1234 I sorry to disagree but it is that simple. If you don't like the fees don't use it. There trouble is we view convenience as a right. So we will agree to disagree. I've had this discussion with Presidents of large companies to line workers. The 407 is not a right .... however, is it a trend we need to look at ... yes,.... would I want all highways to be toll roads ... no. Did we, of the Province get ripped off by the sale ... yes. What we should have insisted on was rapid transit. To me it was stoooooopid not putting rail or subway service in the middle of that thing ..... no forward thinking......


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Forward thinking when it comes to transit is a non-starter in today's politics. All leaders are afraid to publicly embrace any sort of vision which could commit present and future tax payers to huge new burdens for new and/or comprehensively expanded transit systems - no matter how much sense they might make. Pols just want to get reelected, thanks very much; short-term expediency wins the day.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Sad but true...... the only piece of forward thinking I have seen is the bridge over the Don valley Parkway where the subway runs .... not sure but is that the Bloor bridge?


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## RM1234 (Jan 19, 2010)

@RPS

I actually agree with you on something.

Yes we should have added rapid rail but ... that should be full pay for service. Ttc riders are getting off too easy. 

I'm fine with tolls on all highways but I think they already are ... its just collected up front in the form of gas taxes. If they want to stick electronic toll roads everywhere fine .. but lower the gas tax and get rid of some public servants ... and have it run as a non-profit.

I think a lot of the 407 etr stuff will be handled in a higher court one day. There aren't many private citizens that want their names attached to new bankruptcy or debtor case law ... and those that don't care can't afford it. A few corporate bankruptcies with millions on the table will change that pretty quick. Just a matter of time. Which also makes me think the province and the ETR have a growing liability on there hands when this all gets corrected and they have to pay all that back.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

That's the Bloor Viaduct, and yes, it was a classic case of forward-thinking. But that's also a very old bridge, at least by Canuck standards.

We stopped planning for the future in the 70s, if not earlier. The dreams remain, perhaps, but the gumption is long gone. We replaced planned expansion with sprawl. And we we went for the gusto in that department. Decentralize! Suburbanize! Low density neigbourhoods cost a fortune to service - and the tax base is typically abysmal in its size and related ability to pay for the upkeep of those provided roads and sewage systems, etc. - never mind paying for those much-needed improvements which inevitably crop up.

Eventually we stopped even taking a serious run at maintaining our present highways and arterials... too much public money! So our current infrastructure is rotting away while the pols bicker and the electorate whines - about crap roadways and a lack of credible alternatives via mass transit.

The chickens have come home to roost.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Yeah I think you're right on that. Ignorance is bliss and many in Ontario are quite blissful right now.


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