# Native Canadians & the Federal Gov't (Attawapiskat, etc.)



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Federal officials visited Attawapiskat 3 times in October, triggered no red flags on housing*



> Federal Aboriginal Affairs officials travelled to Attawapiskat at least 10 times this year, including three times in October, but it appears none of these visits triggered any concerns with the department about the state of housing on the reserve.
> 
> *The Conservative government announced Wednesday it would be immediately turning over the management of the community to an outside consultant* following a visit by department officials who concluded the health and safety of residents there demanded immediate action. The department also has an engineer on site tasked with finding a way to get residents into warm and safe housing.
> 
> ...





> “This government has invested more than $90 million into this community since coming into office,” said Harper. “We will be announcing additional steps to deal with management problems in this community.”
> 
> NDP MP Charlie Angus, who has championed Attawapiskat’s cause, accused the government of blaming the community for its woes.
> 
> “Their solution is to blame the community,” said Angus, whose riding includes the community. “Why is it when a First Nation community is in distress does this government’s response is contempt?”



(APTN)

Brilliant. The Conservative Government's answer to this is to turn the community over to... what, KPMG? Yeah, that'll work... :yikes:


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Despite Harpo's claim that it is their own fault for living in a native community something needs to be done very quickly.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I think this is a good idea. it couldn't get much worse. Kudos to the Conservatives for trying something new. 

I love Angus's impossibly messed up quote: “Why is it when a First Nation community is in distress does this government’s response is contempt?”


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Seems to me who does what is moot at this point. If an abnormal solution betters their lives more quickly than the government dragging their feet, so much the better.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

SINC said:


> Seems to me who does what is moot at this point. If an abnormal solution betters their lives more quickly than the government dragging their feet, so much the better.


Exactly. Clearly if local management can't get the people into safe, clean housing after burning through millions of dollars, it's time to try something new.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

SINC said:


> Seems to me who does what is moot at this point. If an abnormal solution betters their lives more quickly than the government dragging their feet, so much the better.





Macfury said:


> Exactly. Clearly if local management can't get the people into safe, clean housing after burning through millions of dollars, it's time to try something new.


Pardon me for asking but what is this new radical plan you speak of?


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

This is nothing new. I saw 8'x12' shacks in Arrowland, north of Geraldton in the summer of 1975. I have long maintained that north of Highway 11 you are entering the third world. So these types of conditions have been happening in various places through a whole string of governments.

What is different here is taking over band finances. Bands have guarded their ability to disburse as they saw fit. The government says they have piled over $90,000,000 in the last six years. The bands and the opposition are going to scream. Personally, I will be glad to see some accountability and I am glad that it is a third party doing it. I would like it to be non partisan. Then you have a chance at getting to reality. Is it not enough money? Is it money wasted? a little bit of both? I'd like to know.

They interviewed an auditor on CBC radio this afternoon who had gone over the financial statements for the band. Her comments were interesting. first she indicated that the amount of money was tight. On the other hand she indicated that the ban had no budget and had not had one for years and that the statement showed money for housing to be there yet the band line of credit was maxed out.

so yes, I think that there is probably stuff to look at under the accountant's eye as opposed to the band or the politician's eye.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

BigDL said:


> Pardon me for asking but what is this new radical plan you speak of?


Had you read the quotes CubaMark posted, you would have no need to ask that question.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Lichen Software said:


> This is nothing new. I saw 8'x12' shacks in Arrowland, north of Geraldton in the summer of 1975. I have long maintained that north of Highway 11 you are entering the third world. So these types of conditions have been happening in various places through a whole string of governments.
> 
> What is different here is taking over band finances. Bands have guarded their ability to disburse as they saw fit. The government says they have piled over $90,000,000 in the last six years. The bands and the opposition are going to scream. Personally, I will be glad to see some accountability and I am glad that it is a third party doing it. I would like it to be non partisan. Then you have a chance at getting to reality. Is it not enough money? Is it money wasted? a little bit of both? I'd like to know.
> 
> ...


You can't be aware that the Federal Government and the Band were jointly administering the money. The First Nation was not doing things in the way that is stated here.



SINC said:


> Had you read the quotes CubaMark posted, you would have no need to ask that question.


I did not see anything in CM's quote that was radical or new. I see the same old knee jerk reaction of Conservatives to blame someone else.

I imagine it appeals to the base of Conservative supporters.

Take the focus off the Government's failures: 

that for 30 days the Government ignored the appeals for aid;

that the Red Cross had to be the first responders to show up with the aid (sleeping bags and heaters) for the community;

that for 12 years the community is waiting for the replacement school;

that the community is built on a flood plane;

that there are another 100 northern First Nation's communities in as bad shape as or in worse shape than Attawapiskat. 

It must be difficult to see the Conservative Government handle the situation so badly, not to have complete control of the message track. 

I fear the reason for the third party control of the books is merely a tactic in an attempt to regain control of the message track. I also fear it will signal to other First Nation communities not to start complaining publicly about their dire circumstance at this time.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

BigDL said:


> You can't be aware that the Federal Government and the Band were jointly administering the money. The First Nation was not doing things in the way that is stated here.
> 
> *I did not see anything in CM's quote that was radical or new.* I see the same old knee jerk reaction of Conservatives to blame someone else.
> 
> ...


Your own post contradicts itself. You say at the opening you did not see "it". Then you comment on "it".

It is a departure from normal government reaction, Liberals of old _when they were a party_, included.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

A couple of interesting comments from CBC coverage...



> "This works out to ten thousand per year for each citizen on the reserve. Out of that ten thousand, food must be bought, clothing must be purchased, and there are no homes to move into. On top of that, you are expected to create your own drinkable water system to supply your home, employ teachers, and employ social assistance. Then there is electricity, sewage systems etc. How far do you think your ten thousand would go every year? My guess is that you would be living in a shack or tent, as these people have been forced to do." _- Mary Lynn M._
> 
> "[T]his money amounts to about 8000 per person for the year.... Sounds like a lot but when you really break it down it is only enough to barely keep you alive." _- Sicskahghee_


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

My parents live near the Six Nations Reserve close to Brantford, Ontario. It is common knowledge that the financial management of the band council is utterly corrupted. Hundreds of millions of dollars flow in there, yet a third of houses have no running water or heat. The "ones in charge" live extraordinarily lavish lifestyles (multi-million dollar homes, SUVs and sports cars,etc.). 

The government has needed to intervene in this financial arrangement and create transparency and accountability.

Native Canadians are given so many advantages by the system. Subsidies for education, medical, housing, tax exemptions and even radically lower academic requirements for acceptance to law and medical schools. Our native populations should be doing well, not living like this.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

SINC said:


> Your own post contradicts itself. You say at the opening you did not see "it". Then you comment on "it".
> 
> It is a departure from normal government reaction, Liberals of old _when they were a party_, included.


I did not contradict myself. I commented that I did not see anything new or radical that others opined.

Attaboy! Blame the Liberals, nice conservative message track. 

When there are no rebuttals for the utter failure of Our Glorious Leader and his caucus.

I recently noticed that Conservative spokes persons yell over the opposition spokes persons when the opposition are making points on any topic. 

Thankfully it would be hard to accomplish such a feat in this venue.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

BigDL said:


> I did not contradict my self. I commented that I did not see anything new or radical that others opined.
> 
> Attaboy! Blame the Liberals, nice conservative message track.
> 
> ...


As I have noted before, it must be tough to have to live for years with this much hatred.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

SINC said:


> As I have noted before, it must be tough to have to live for years with this much hatred.


By all means please let go of that grudge against the Liberals, forgiveness will truly lighten the sprit. 

Still nothing in defence of Our Glorious Leader's action. Attboy! Try changing the channel, that's always *'A'* tactic of last resort. :yawn:


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

so we've gone from blaming the liberals to, questioning one's emotional baggage for daring to question the government's motives or actions.

welcome to a new, conservative government.

Did someone say, KPMG? Wow. Tha's real radical. Wasn't that the geniuses that the con mayor hired to come up with the beauties of recommendations for council here? The ones that Adam Vaughn drove a stake through in this oh so hilarious video?

Yeah have a look. THAT KPMG. The ones atom smasher et al are all ga ga about.


watch it right though, it's well worth it.




+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






yeah good luck with that...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

**I* mentioned KPMG *- no idea if that is actually the gov'ts intended "third party". None of the reporting I've seen on this issue has covered that aspect.

Also worth noting, for those who are shocked by the $90-million figure that Harper has thrown around:



> The CBC's Adrienne Arsenault, reporting from Attawapiskat on Wednesday, said the $92 million in funding spread over six years was used for services normally covered by the municipalities or the provinces elsewhere in the country. In Attawapiskat, these services are covered by the federal government under the Indian Act. The sum left for housing is about $1 million, which, in the North, can build about four houses, Arsenault said.


(CBC)


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

> The CBC's Adrienne Arsenault, reporting from Attawapiskat on Wednesday, said the $92 million in funding spread over six years was used for services normally covered by the municipalities or the provinces elsewhere in the country.


OK so we have a community with no running water, new sewers, no sidewalks and most people drive 4X4s, atvs and snow mobiles so I doubt they're spending much on roads. Just what services are they providing that eat up the $91 million? 

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

The problem is the same as we see in third world countries; those with power and money do not spread the wealth as its intended. They keep the people poor and retain control ue to their wealth.

INAC has misused funds, and many chiefs have also pocketed money meant for the entire community. There are chiefs rolling around in cadillacs, mansions, living a wealthy lifestyle and their people remain poor. People who fight against them are run out of the reserve, and votes are won through bribery and force if needed.

The gov't should have stepped in LONG ago to control the funds. Nobody wanted to touch it because it was to politically incorrect.

There is a light through, some reserves are run correctly and don't have alcohol and drug problems like those we often hear about.


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Maybe one day the government will stop treating them like second class citizens and start treating them like everyone else.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> **I* mentioned KPMG *- no idea if that is actually the gov'ts intended "third party". None of the reporting I've seen on this issue has covered that aspect.
> 
> Also worth noting, for those who are shocked by the $90-million figure that Harper has thrown around:
> 
> ...


I realize that, though I was chuckling at the predictable few that lapped up the news as something to be applauded. I just wanted to show what such a 'radical' change was.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

imnothng said:


> Maybe one day the government will stop treating them like second class citizens and start treating them like everyone else.


The whole relationship with government is predicated on the specialness of Native Canadians, so treating them like everybody else isn't always possible. In the situation mentioned above, if they were treated like everybody else, the town would cease to exist.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> The problem is the same as we see in third world countries; those with power and money do not spread the wealth as its intended. They keep the people poor and retain control ue to their wealth.
> 
> *INAC has misused funds, and many chiefs have also pocketed money meant for the entire community. There are chiefs rolling around in cadillacs, mansions, living a wealthy lifestyle and their people remain poor. People who fight against them are run out of the reserve, and votes are won through bribery and force if needed.
> 
> ...


* Bolded by me to address issue.

The old chestnut of the First Nation blew the money with no accountability is plain horse $h!t in this case. The Federal Government jointly managed the funds of the Attawapiskat First Nation. Blaming the victims in this case with stereotypical propaganda is not useful, IMO. If the First Nation did a poor job so did the Federal Government. 

The Federal Governments failures are on many fronts, across the 100 or more First Nation's communities, just like Attawapiskat, through out this country.



Sympatico News said:


> Angus said later Wednesday that the federal government has had a "co-manager in the community every single day, dealing with the books."
> 
> "He's appointed by the federal government," Angus told CTV's Power Play. "If they were concerned about the money they would have called him and I think he would have given them a pretty straightforward answer about what they're doing with debt and how they are dealing with their finances."
> 
> ...


Feds to put Attawapiskat under third-party management | Sympatico.ca News

I see that some want to prop up Our Glorious Leader, others do not want to see fellow Canadians get out of poverty and squalor. 

The attitude that in Canada we shouldn't have protesters in tents in city parks but it just fine for tent homes in northern communities. No need for the OWS movement in Canada cause we're all right jack indeed.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

it's funny how the assumption is, the natives are thieves, and our glorious leader is our saviour.

Some people just never change.

I'd say, before assuming the natives are thieves, perhaps, do a little reading first:

Dealing with comments about Attawapiskat | âpihtawikosisân


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> My parents live near the Six Nations Reserve close to Brantford, Ontario. It is common knowledge that the financial management of the band council is utterly corrupted. Hundreds of millions of dollars flow in there, yet a third of houses have no running water or heat. The "ones in charge" live extraordinarily lavish lifestyles (multi-million dollar homes, SUVs and sports cars,etc.).
> 
> The government has needed to intervene in this financial arrangement and create transparency and accountability.
> 
> Native Canadians are given so many advantages by the system. Subsidies for education, medical, housing, tax exemptions and even radically lower academic requirements for acceptance to law and medical schools. Our native populations should be doing well, not living like this.


Exactly Adrian. For those without blinders on this is exactly the problem in many, many cases.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

Both First Nations and the gov't did a poor job but the gov't didn't keep the people poor. Chiefs who kept the money for themselves instead of putting into community are the final point of blame. The gov't is to blame for not stepping in earlier to do something. Liberal and Conservatives alike turned their cheek. The only reason they are getting involved now is because of Attawapiskat.

I have friends who work at Assembly of First Nations and they all know the money is wasted by corrupt chiefs and by corrupt employees at INAC.

How exactly do you explain the conditions First Nations live in when they are given all this funding?


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

screature said:


> Exactly Adrian. For those without blinders on this is exactly the problem in many, many cases.


...and for those without blinders on this is exactly *NOT* the problem in many, many cases.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

Also, not all reserves are run poorly. News reports some in Manitoba that don't have drug/alcohol problems either which is great. They are a model for what a community should be.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

imnothng said:


> Maybe one day the government will stop treating them like second class citizens and start treating them like everyone else.


What the hell are you talking about? Native students get $80/week to stay in high school! All university is paid for, all medical is paid for, housing/living subsidies, priority access to many jobs, professional schools and social security. In Brantford about 4 years ago, there was a case where a native youth got in his car drunk as a skunk and ran over 4 other youths outside of a house party. Instead of the 12 year sentence that any other person would have received, he was put on house arrest for 8 months and has to attend a "healing circle" for 4 years. What the f*ck is that? One of the kids died and the other is permanently and severely disabled. That is extraordinary judicial leniency. 

I wish I was treated like that. 

If they want to continue to demand administrative sovereignty on their own land (reserves), then they need to demonstrate where the money is going. I have not done a whole lot of research into this case in mention. However, from my experiences living near a reserve, the entire system is corrupted and needs to be re designed.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Native students get $80/week to stay in high school! All university is paid for, all medical is paid for, housing/living subsidies, priority access to many jobs, professional schools and social security. In Brantford about 4 years ago, there was a case where a native youth got in his car drunk as a skunk and ran over 4 other youths outside of a house party. Instead of the 12 year sentence that any other person would have received, he was put on house arrest for 8 months and has to attend a "healing circle" for 4 years. What the f*ck is that? One of the kids died and the other is permanently and severely disabled. That is extraordinary judicial leniency.
> 
> I wish I was treated like that.
> 
> *If they want to continue to demand administrative sovereignty on their own land (reserves), then they need to demonstrate where the money is going.* I have not done a whole lot of research into this case in mention. However, from my experiences living near a reserve, the entire system is corrupted and needs to be re designed.


Yup.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

The funny part is, apparently the federal government knows full well where the money is going.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Does remind one of the Mark Twain's observation about the Indian Agent that prayed over every single barrel of pork that came his way, then promptly commandeered it.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

maybe people have trouble clicking on links with more correct info.

I'll try again:
Creekside: Attawapiskat vs gazebos


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Adrian. said:


> In Brantford about 4 years ago, there was a case where a native youth got in his car drunk as a skunk and ran over 4 other youths outside of a house party. Instead of the 12 year sentence that any other person would have received, he was put on house arrest for 8 months and has to attend a "healing circle" for 4 years. What the f*ck is that? One of the kids died and the other is permanently and severely disabled. That is extraordinary judicial leniency.


Sorry, but you're dreaming if you think any drunk driver is going to receive a 12 year sentence. The judicial system seems to be lenient on most drunk drivers.

I know from experience. I've lost a family member to a drunk driver that got an 18 month sentence to be served in the community. 

18 months community service isn't much for killing someone.


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## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

Adrian. said:


> What the hell are you talking about? Native students get $80/week to stay in high school! All university is paid for, all medical is paid for, housing/living subsidies, priority access to many jobs, professional schools and social security. In Brantford about 4 years ago, there was a case where a native youth got in his car drunk as a skunk and ran over 4 other youths outside of a house party. Instead of the 12 year sentence that any other person would have received, he was put on house arrest for 8 months and has to attend a "healing circle" for 4 years. What the f*ck is that? One of the kids died and the other is permanently and severely disabled. That is extraordinary judicial leniency.
> 
> I wish I was treated like that.
> 
> If they want to continue to demand administrative sovereignty on their own land (reserves), then they need to demonstrate where the money is going. I have not done a whole lot of research into this case in mention. However, from my experiences living near a reserve, the entire system is corrupted and needs to be re designed.


Lol, exactly. Second class citizens was wrong, what I meant was treating them any different than anyone else. Btw, I grew up in the occupied town (caledonia) and went to school with about 30% native. Are you really sure about that 80$ a week, because my buddies only got 7$ IF they showed up every day.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I wonder if a little entrepreneurship could help the poor folks in the headlines now. I saw they have to pay $6.65 for a dozen eggs. No doubt they are all shipped in from out of town. Is there any reason that someone in their community could not raise chickens and supply all the eggs needed at a much lower price point and make a good buck while doing so? Also supply the meat?
> 
> What kind of fish and game is abundant in the area? Hunting could significantly reduce food costs for them if it isn't already being done. The furs can be made into clothes or exported.
> 
> ...


Seems to me the folks of this first Nation had a well established way of life but the Government of Canada contrived a systematic policy to demolish those skills and adaptations.

Our Glorious Leader did apologized for the effects from the residential schools policy. I guess he felt taking the cheap way out of the situation was best. Oops Sorry is a cost effective policy rather than paying for remedial measures to make First Nation's people whole.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Kosh said:


> Sorry, but you're dreaming if you think any drunk driver is going to receive a 12 year sentence. The judicial system seems to be lenient on most drunk drivers.
> 
> I know from experience. I've lost a family member to a drunk driver that got an 18 month sentence to be served in the community.
> 
> 18 months community service isn't much for killing someone.


There was an altercation. He walked over to his car. Got in it. Drove it into the 4 people.

It wasn't a simple drunk driver hitting random people.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> Seems to me the folks of this first Nation had a well established way of life but the Government of Canada contrived a systematic policy to demolish those skills and adaptations.
> 
> Our Glorious Leader did apologized for the effects from the residential schools policy. I guess he felt taking the cheap way out of the situation was best. Oops Sorry is a cost effective policy rather than paying for remedial measures to make First Nation's people whole.


You are so out to lunch trying to blame the history of the aboriginals and the Europeans on this government... the Indian Act is mostly to blame and is ancient history at this point in time... your outrage, as is Mr. Angus' is completely misplaced and opportunistic but by all means carry on with your sanctimonious diatribes... Have you even been to James Bay? I have.

The problems and solutions are far from being as simplistic as the opposition and you would wish to portray it...


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

sure, like the accusations and insinuations by the Harper government is by any means reasonable.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> There was an altercation. He walked over to his car. Got in it. Drove it into the 4 people.
> 
> It wasn't a simple drunk driver hitting random people.


there's a difference?

oops, I don't know what happened, I got drunk and holy crap I killed some people.

Perhaps there's a technical difference, but in the end, someone willfully got drunk got behind the wheel of a car and killed people.

I don't know that the families of the victims will see a huge difference really.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

groovetube said:


> there's a difference?
> 
> oops, I don't know what happened, I got drunk and holy crap I killed some people.
> 
> ...


A drunk driver has no intention of killing someone. This guy did have intent to kill. "Intent" is a big word in the law.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

screature said:


> ... Have you even been to James Bay? I have.
> 
> The problems and solutions are far from being as simplistic as the opposition and you would wish to portray it...


Yup

I was to Moosonee twice. Think of it as Atawapiskat 101. I came back and told my wife that it was the land of opportunity because there was absolutely nothing that these people did not need. As you go up the coast, my understanding is the need just gets greater.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Lichen Software said:


> Yup
> 
> I was to Moosonee twice. Think of it as Atawapiskat 101. I came back and told my wife that it was the land of opportunity because there was absolutely nothing that these people did not need. As you go up the coast, my understanding is the need just gets greater.


I was to Moosonee and Moose Factory several times and did not find the people lacking substantially at all. My uncle was the zone director for Health Canada there for 3 years and I visited him on several occasions and the community was not hurting in any substantial way that I could see... snow mobiles and trucks every where, good housing and a hospital that is on par with what we have here in Aylmer considering the population...

As you go further north things of course change, but do you really think this is the fault of the current administration? The "natural ruling party" of Canada had generations to make things better (not to say that the Feds are solely responsible) and they didn't so is it reasonable to think that in 6 short years this administration would have corrected all the ills of the Indian Act? 

I mean really...


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Adrian. said:


> A drunk driver has no intention of killing someone. This guy did have intent to kill. "Intent" is a big word in the law.


the moment that drunk driver got behind the wheel of a car, he made a decision to potentially kill someone.

I realize there's a difference in law with intent, but to me, neither deserve any leniency.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

screature said:


> I was to Moosonee and Moose Factory several times and did not find the people lacking substantially at all. My uncle was the zone director for Health Canada there for 3 years and I visited him on several occasions and the community was not hurting in any substantial way that I could see... snow mobiles and trucks every where, good housing and a hospital that is on par with what we have here in Aylmer considering the population...
> 
> As you go further north things of course change, but do you really think this is the fault of the current administration? The "natural ruling party" of Canada had generations to make things better (not to say that the Feds are solely responsible) and they didn't so is it reasonable to think that in 6 short years this administration would have corrected all the ills of the Indian Act?
> 
> I mean really...


I was there doing an appraisal for A native estate. In truth I saw a mixed bag... Some really good new and some bad old. there was money coming in. I did come away angry at some of the real estate I looked at. In particular was a house about 20 years old with the foundation failing for no good reason other than poor initial quality. the homes in the immediate area were the same. hings that would never have been tolerated in other communities.

as for your comment on natural ruling parties, spot on. this is something that has been going on for decades. It has been a case of out of sight, out of mind.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

didn't we vote out the previous government because they didn't do a very good job?

Harper has had 6 years to do anything. So far, all he and his supporters have done, is play the blame game.

No better than the previous governments it appears.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

groovetube said:


> it's funny how the assumption is, the natives are thieves, and our glorious leader is our saviour.
> 
> Some people just never change.
> 
> ...


+1

If there's a lack of accountability in this case, it's the fault of the government (systemic, not current).

The complete ignorance of this though is squarely on Harper for attempting to polarizing people with his comments.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

cap10subtext said:


> +1
> 
> If there's a lack of accountability in this case, it's the fault of the government (systemic, not current).
> 
> The complete ignorance of this though is squarely on Harper for attempting to polarizing people with his comments.


Comm'on don't blame Our Glorious Leader he is just bringing his *"A Game"*


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

A road out of native hardship

An excellent common sense article.



> ....Any attempts by the federal government to make sure taxpayers' money is being well spent are regarded as an unwelcome, colonialist intrusion. The imposition of third-party management in Attawapiskat, after clear mismanagement by the band council (the housing budget was in surplus, despite people living in wood-frame tents), is dismissed as "the imposition of an Indian agent" by the local grand chief, Stan Louttit.
> 
> At the mention of Canada's past shameful treatment of its First Nations, guilty-looking white politicians reach for the chequebook. In the wake of the residential school apology, in which Mr. Harper said "the policy of assimilation was wrong," no one is going to propose changes that would really smash the status quo. Changes such as those proposed by Pierre Trudeau and his young Indian Affairs minister, Jean Chrétien, in 1969, which would have abolished the Indian Act and led to native services being delivered the same way as those received by other Canadians. The White Paper was opposed by many aboriginals because it was seen as ending their distinct status. But this was proposed in the name of equality, not assimilation - "the government believes that no one should be shut out of Canadian life," it read.
> 
> ...


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

cap10subtext said:


> +1
> 
> If there's a lack of accountability in this case, it's the fault of the government (systemic, not current).
> 
> *The complete ignorance of this though is squarely on Harper for attempting to polarizing people with his comments*.


Really... stating facts is polarizing... interesting, but I guess such are the times when you have a very left opposition and a very right government, it all comes down to interpretation.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)




----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Attawapiskat housing budget for 5 years = $5 million. 

Samsung Solar and Wind Power Deal with Ontario = $6.6 Billion


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

screature said:


> Really... stating facts is polarizing... interesting, but I guess such are the times when you have a very left opposition and a very right government, it all comes down to interpretation.


Where is (are) the statement of fact(s) by Our Glorious Leader on this subject? 

I saw some questions offered up by Harper speaking in Parliament that achieved their goal of polarizing citizen though. As proof just read the posts in this thread.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

BigDL said:


> Where is (are) the statement of fact(s) by Our Glorious Leader on this subject?
> 
> I saw some questions offered up by Harper speaking in Parliament that achieved their goal of polarizing citizen though. As proof just read the posts in this thread.


As if holding widely divergent opinions on these matters is a bad thing. The assumption that we are all fortune's poor fools--our opinions formed by the current Prime Minister--suggests a sense of powerlessness I find unusual. Most people I know form their own opinions.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Attawapiskat housing budget for 5 years = $5 million.
> 
> Samsung Solar and Wind Power Deal with Ontario = $6.6 Billion


better analogy...


> *Attawapiskat housing budget for 5 years = $5 million.
> 
> Gazebos for Tony Clement's riding in less than one year, 50 million*


fixed that for you.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

The government's policies and treatment of aboriginal Canadians has been nothing short of shameful, and by that I mean every government that ever held power in the past 100 years.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I think we've already established that previous governments have failed to address this properly.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> Where is (are) the statement of fact(s) by Our Glorious Leader on this subject?
> 
> I saw some questions offered up by Harper speaking in Parliament that achieved their goal of polarizing citizen though. *As proof just read the posts in this thread.*


:lmao: It wouldn't matter if Harper said the Feds are investing an additional $20 M... it would still be "polarizing" or haven't you been following along...


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

SINC said:


> The government's policies and treatment of aboriginal Canadians has been nothing short of shameful, and by that I mean every government that ever held power in the past 100 years.


+1 and I would extend the date range to 1867.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> +1 and *I would extend the date range to 1867.*


On this we can basically agree but this government has done more, at least symbolically and in fact monetarily to address the issue than any previous government and yet your vitriol seems to be only directed at them which is fundamentally unfair.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well thank god someone has 'symbolically' done something.

Phew.


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

The present Government willing takes responsibility, when positive newsis announced, even when they did not make any contribution to the topic under review, is reported. Therefore, in my books, they must take the lumps when the news is not favourable for Our Glorious Leader and the government.

Especially when Our Glorious Leader's government continually attempts to escape any responsibility for mis-step on all fronts.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Patricia Pearson: Attawapiskat's Abandonment Crisis

An interesting read. Perhaps this government should spend less time with insinuations and at least try, to deal with this situation showing some respect.

Something they clearly aren't very good at.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

BigDL said:


> The present Government willing takes responsibility, when positive newsis announced, even when they did not make any contribution to the topic under review, is reported. Therefore, in my books, they must take the lumps when the news is not favourable for Our Glorious Leader and the government.
> 
> Especially when Our Glorious Leader's government continually attempts to escape any responsibility for mis-step on all fronts.


So you're congratulating them for doing more--as the facts bear out. The large numbers of water and sewage improvement programs in native settlements completed during the Federal stimulus program were staggering.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> *So you're congratulating them for doing more*--as the facts bear out. The large numbers of water and sewage improvement programs in native settlements completed during the Federal stimulus program were staggering.


No that would never happen as BigDL being the Right Horrible only wants to be negative as his moniker would suggest... and yet he continues to refer to Harper as "Our Glorious Leader" an obvious Fascist reference... simply because he disagrees with the policies and agenda of the government. 

He obviously has no interest in facts just hyperbole, misdirection and his own homegrown form of propaganda.... which closely mirrors that of the talking points of the opposition... and yet MacDoc continues to refer to those in agreement with government policies as "lap puppies"... I guess it all depends on whose "lap" one deems you to be sitting in as to what constitutes being a puppy... It is astounding how the irony is lost on them.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

efforts so staggering that the red cross had to go in because of the emergency?

Some people just believe anything shovelled at them.

For some people who scream PARTISAN ARRRGGHHH! every chance they can, boy they sure show theirs in a real hurry when defence is needed.


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

groovetube said:


> Patricia Pearson: Attawapiskat's Abandonment Crisis
> 
> An interesting read. Perhaps this government should spend less time with insinuations and at least try, to deal with this situation showing some respect.
> 
> Something they clearly aren't very good at.


Very excellent post. Ms. Pearson articulates the problems very well, that I only hinted at in my ramblings.

Those who criticize me for criticizing the government of the day, show me where the current government is fundamentally changing the attitude towards remote First Nations Communities. 

Denial and blaming the victims, by Stephen Harper, didn't strike me as new attitude or approach. What did I miss? 

I read much here that echoed the PM's response though, blame the victims again and again.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

BigDL said:


> Very excellent post. Ms. Pearson articulates the problems very well, that I only hinted at in my ramblings.
> 
> Those who criticize me for criticizing the government of the day, show me where the current government is fundamentally changing the attitude towards remote First Nations Communities.
> 
> ...


You forgot about the 'staggering' improvements that resulted in the red cross going to avert a serious emergency.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> Patricia Pearson: Attawapiskat's Abandonment Crisis.


_Excellent article, groovetube. For those who have click-itis or otherwise dislike following links:_



> What this is about, in all kinds of ways, is distance. A distant bureaucracy from a distant culture imposing baffling edicts and regulations on a group of people who were highly self-sufficient hunters and trappers for thousands of years before they wandered into the quicksand of the Indian Act.
> 
> The Oji-Cree didn't spring fully-formed from the earth as "lazy welfare bums" whose chiefs "squander taxpayers' money."
> 
> On the contrary, a strikingly competent people were assigned patches of land in the boreal wilderness -- and that is what you glimpse from the plane, the unutterable vastness of that wilderness -- and told to stay put. No more following the game, or the trap lines. The forest around them became Crown Land. They cannot log it, not even for houses. They're not allowed to run a saw mill. They can't secure mortgages.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

They're perfectly free to "roam the land"--but I suspect they don't want to. More of this primeval Eden BS.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

ah the incorrigible, macfury. I don't know if it's the rugged individualism that completely insulates you from the points of the article, one can only surmise what the underlying cause is. I think Max before departing expressed this in further detail.

Sorry, but the issue has nothing to do, with "roaming free". Try actually reading the words and responding to the actual content, rather than making things up.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

> What this is about, in all kinds of ways, is distance. A distant bureaucracy from a distant culture imposing baffling edicts and regulations on a group of people who were highly self-sufficient hunters and trappers for thousands of years before they wandered into the quicksand of the Indian Act.
> 
> The Oji-Cree didn't spring fully-formed from the earth as "lazy welfare bums" whose chiefs "squander taxpayers' money."
> 
> On the contrary, a strikingly competent people were assigned patches of land in the boreal wilderness -- and that is what you glimpse from the plane, the unutterable vastness of that wilderness -- and told to stay put. No more following the game, or the trap lines. The forest around them became Crown Land. They cannot log it, not even for houses. They're not allowed to run a saw mill. They can't secure mortgages.


'Twas indeed an excellent article. However the one thing that could make things worse for these people is allowing them to get mortgages. Giving a cut to the banksters is far more likely to increase hardships.

Changing book-keeping methods so that some Harpie gets a bigger cut is not likely to improve things either.

Certainly they should be given reasonable access to the resources surrounding them, especially when it comes to building homes for themselves. 

Allowing them to hunt, fish and trap would probably do more to increase their sense of self worth more than anything else the government could do for them. Anyone who has done it can tell you hunting or trapping is not a lazy life.


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

I have problems with the tone and truthyness of Our Glorious Leader Government's approach dealing with current crisis in Attawapiskat. 

The Government's position "this is all a surprise" and everyone else is to blame. To the Government's credit they did not identify a "Brownie is doing a heck of a job" as an answer to this crisis.

The "Blamees" include the citizens of the First Nation, Charlie Angus, the MP that represents the area. 

The Red Cross are likely in doo-do with their immediate response for "showing up" the Government with respect to a proper response suppling emergency comfort from the cold. After this response is any government funding for the Red Cross at stake?



CBC The House said:


> This week on The House, Evan Solomon delves into the crisis that's been unfolding in the northern Ontario First Nations reserve of Attawapiskat.
> 
> CBC reporter Tom Parry brings us the voices of the people who live there. Then, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, Greg Rickford, answers questions about putting Attawapiskat under third-party management. Finally, former Indian Affairs Minister Chuck Strahl and former National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations Phil Fontaine weigh in. It's a conversation you don't want to miss!


Link with audio interviews with Greg Rickford the Government spokesperson, Chuck Strahl former Minister and Phil Fontaine former National Chief 



PnP said:


> The federal department responsible for First Nations has known about the worsening living conditions at Attawapiskat for years, says former Indian Affairs Minister Chuck Strahl.
> 
> In an interview with CBC Radio's The House, Strahl tells host Evan Solomon the crisis at Attawapiskat "has been a slow moving train-wreck for a long time."
> 
> ...


The Power and Politics link


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Mike Holmes (Holmes on Homes) says (to paraphrase): 'this ain't rocket science'. Get 'er done.*

*Stop building junk on reserves, says Mike Holmes*



> "I don't care if you want a box. I don't care if you want it off the ground. I don't care if you want a foundation. It's using all the products that make sense, nothing but mould-free, nothing but zero VOCs [volatile organic compounds]. This is not hard."
> 
> Holmes, who is also an adviser on a 90-unit affordable housing project for seniors in Edmonton that is a partnership involving the city and the Métis Capital Housing Corporation, has no patience for any argument that his ideas will cost too much.





> "Look at the cost of taking it down and doing it again," Holmes said. "There's no comparison."



(CBC)


----------



## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

screature said:


> Really... stating facts is polarizing... interesting, but I guess such are the times when you have a very left opposition and a very right government, it all comes down to interpretation.


When Harper first responded to this he said:
"That's over $50,000 for every man, woman and child in the community."

Which is either completely naïve of expected outcome (just look around at comments decrying the salaries of executives on the reserves) or purposefully deceptive (with no indication that money has been mostly spent on the infrastructure).

Harper's been around long enough, anyone who assumes he doesn't carefully chose his words is fooling themselves.


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> *Mike Holmes (Holmes on Homes) says (to paraphrase): 'this ain't rocket science'. Get 'er done.*
> [/URL])


This is all well & fine in theory. However, there has to be pride of ownership as well.

Case in point (noted this before on ehMac). Have a friend who worked in a modular home factory back in the 80's. They were contracted to build homes for a local reserve & did so, using the exact same materials & construction methods used for anyone else.

A few months after the homes were delivered, they were called in to work on some warranty issues. Fairly typical. Pulled into this one yard & saw that the owner had taken a chainsaw to the exterior bathroom wall so that his horse had somewhere to drink-the bathtub.

You can't fix that kind of mentality.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

"this kind of mentality"

Perhaps 'our kind of mentality' is the problem. Obviously.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> "this kind of mentality"
> 
> Perhaps 'our kind of mentality' is the problem. Obviously.


You have no idea gt.

In the seventies, I was on a committee in Kenora, ON to assist natives on the seven reserves in that area. We got government financing to build twenty new houses on one of those reserves. We did just that and moved in 20 families. 

Two years later, the houses were uninhabitable. Why? They were just shells of framing and plywood. That is all that was left standing.

Those families had burned the interiors of the homes by ripping them apart board by board to burn in the wood stoves that heated them. They even tore the wooden siding off the homes to burn. This is in spite of the fact they were in the forest surrounded by thousands of trees that could have been cut for firewood. 

You can't fix that kind of mentality, indeed.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

It was my understanding they are NOT allowed to cut down the trees in the surrounding crown land,



> On the contrary, a strikingly competent people were assigned patches of land in the boreal wilderness -- and that is what you glimpse from the plane, the unutterable vastness of that wilderness -- and told to stay put. No more following the game, or the trap lines. *The forest around them became Crown Land. They cannot log it, not even for houses. They're not allowed to run a saw mill.* They can't secure mortgages.


And oh. Here's something even in the national post for all the lap puppies barking like good little puppies about this.

How Ottawa spent $90 million at Attawapiskat | Full Comment | National Post

This, is why you can't believe one word this lying bunch of scumbags we have as government says.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> It was my understanding they are NOT allowed to cut down the trees in the surrounding crown land,


READ. It was on their OWN reserve land where they can cut all the trees they wish. In this case, they were too lazy to bother.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

oh, perhaps I should also add the preceeding line.



> The Oji-Cree didn't spring fully-formed from the earth as "lazy welfare bums" whose chiefs "squander taxpayers' money."


Perhaps you should spend less time assuming people are lazy because they're Natives, and a little more time considering whether what we have been doing (or not doing) is the wrong way to deal with this.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

FeXL said:


> This is all well & fine in theory. However, there has to be pride of ownership as well.


*From the article linked above...*



> For Holmes, helping First Nations improve their housing stock extends far beyond choosing the right wood and drywall or hammering nails.
> 
> "The smartest thing we can do is to teach the First Nations how to do it," says Holmes. "When they do it themselves, they have pride, and they care, and that's what I think is the missing link, not to mention just using the wrong products and building foolishly."


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> oh, perhaps I should also add the preceeding line.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you should spend less time assuming people are lazy because they're Natives, and a little more time considering whether what we have been doing (or not doing) is the wrong way to deal with this.


I spent over 15 years of my life working on special committees to help natives and likely know more of their leaders personally than most. Even their leaders shook their heads at some of their band members in this case, and were flat out embarrassed by the condition of the homes after two years when they had to bring it to our attention. Like white men, some are lazy without a doubt. That doesn't make them all so, but it is fact.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Perhaps the lesson here is: _politicians in any context tend to be less than we would hope they would be._


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

FeXL said:


> This is all well & fine in theory. * However, there has to be pride of ownership as well.*
> 
> Case in point (noted this before on ehMac). Have a friend who worked in a modular home factory back in the 80's. They were contracted to build homes for a local reserve & did so, using the exact same materials & construction methods used for anyone else.
> 
> ...


There is no ownership on first nations land, not the land anyway. The land is owned by the band regardless of it is a shack or a mansion. One of the many problems with the Indian Act.


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> *From the article linked above...*


Sorry, CM, I missed that.

I honestly don't know if it will help but ya gotta try it, no?


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

groovetube said:


> "this kind of mentality"
> 
> Perhaps 'our kind of mentality' is the problem. Obviously.


Having significant difficulty reconciling the carving up of a brand hew home with a chainsaw and my mindset.

Perhaps, using small words & pictures, you could help me along here...


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Something like the Antigonosh Movement, that through group adult education,
co-operative and democratic action many rural lives and communities improved and thrived. The movement has spread around the world. Antigonosh Movement Link


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> _Excellent article, groovetube. For those who have click-itis or otherwise dislike following links:_


it seems this blogger has been put in quite the spotlight. She's has so well articulated this issue in the face of the Harper's government's attempt at spewing nonsense (and their supporters howling it like parrots to boot...) Also read she's gotten some real hate mail from the usual right wing nutbars. I guess some really are incensed that someone could counter Harper's government with reason, and facts.


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

*Third Party Manager kicked Out of Attawapiskat*

Third Party Manager kicked Out of Attawapiskat



CBCNews said:


> The third-party manager sent by the federal government to handle the desperate housing situation in Attawapiskat in northern Ontario has been asked by the band to leave, CBC News has confirmed.
> 
> Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence told CBC News that she had informed the band manager of her decision.
> 
> ...


Attawapiskat third-party manager asked to leave - Politics - CBC News


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'll bet he was asked to leave. Tough to have your responsibility taken from you after you foul up.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

who fouled up? Links and some information please?

looks like someone, never bothered to read anything about this.

Typical.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

An informative post on native Canadians and taxation...

*Poking holes in First Nations taxation mythology*



> *Indians don't even pay taxes, why should they get my tax dollars blaaargh (head explodes)!!!!???*
> 
> This is one of the most common complaints that comes up in any discussion of any news story concerning First Nations. I am going to focus on the factual aspects of First Nations taxation more than the philosophical discussions of "who should be taxed" and "where should my taxes go," so I'm not going to answer your question in its entirety.
> The first thing you need to know is that most aboriginal peoples don't get tax exemptions. The tax exemptions that do exist are linked completely to the reserves, so non-Status Indians, Inuit, Métis, and most Status Indians living off reserve, don't get any tax exemptions at all. That narrows down the people eligible for tax exemptions by a pretty huge margin.


(Rabble.ca)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Ottawa offers Attawapiskat evacuation plan - Ottawa - CBC News


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

CBCNews said:


> The federal government is offering to evacuate families living in tents and shacks in the northern Ontario community of Attawapiskat until adequate housing can be provided for them.


The offer to evacuate people doesn't sound very appealing,

evacuate 

• empty (the bowels or another bodily organ)
• discharge (feces or other matter) from the body.

however if the government's offer is to evacuate a community or tents or shacks *of people* that might be reasonable.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

The truth is, Attawapiskat receives about half the funding per capita as non natives. 

If they're going to evacuate because they aren't interested in properly funding it, perhaps they should start evacuating every town in the north as well, that can't pay for their own infrastructure, health care etc etc etc.

Might be a pretty empty north...


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

groovetube said:


> The truth is, Attawapiskat receives about half the funding per capita as non natives.
> 
> If they're going to evacuate because they aren't interested in properly funding it, perhaps they should start evacuating every town in the north as well, that can't pay for their own infrastructure, health care etc etc etc.
> 
> Might be a pretty empty north...


The Danes and Russians would no doubt heartily approve.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Unless there is some employment for the citizens of towns like this, there will never be an end to this sort of news story. How long can you prop up a community that has no economic reason for existence? Even if you tripled the budget and built better homes for everyone, the community woulds till be jobless, dependent and purposeless. This writer is dead on:

For Kashechewan, read Attawapiskat - The Globe and Mail



> We are engaged in national intellectual escapism if we think these communities will escape from their debilitating cycles of problems without something more than a subsistence economy. Without one, dependence will prevail. With dependence comes lack of self-esteem, social pathologies and family troubles


.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

if the community received even what a non native community does per person, perhaps, it's a start.

Are you going to suggest this for all towns, because boy there'll quite a few towns being shut down in this country.

But don't let facts get in the way now.


----------



## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

groovetube said:


> if the community received even what a non native community does per person, perhaps, it's a start.
> 
> Are you going to suggest this for all towns, because boy there'll quite a few towns being shut down in this country.
> 
> But don't let facts get in the way now.


There already have been. Northern Ontario is littered with ghost towns that have lost their reason for being and hence ceased to exist. See List of ghost towns in Ontario - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . That list is incomplete. Near where I grew up there was also Kelso, Fraserdale, Twin Falls and Fredrickhouse. On the block right now, probably going through a slow death is Smooth Rock Falls.

I don't claim to know the answers to Attawaiskat, but I do have some observations:

1. At the grass roots level, if you do not own it or if you share ownership of it, there is no incentive to maintain it. It is well documented in the tragedy of the commons - common grazing lands being abused but private lands having good stewardship. It is a scenario being played out all over cottage country as "Families" own a cottage and no one wants to put the money in to maintain it so the others can use it. It shows in reservations with band owned homes.

2. At the funds distribution level, currently the process seems to be a trickle down economics. The band gets the money and it is supposed to trickle down from the executive to the members. It did not work for Reagan and it is not working here.

3. At the personal level the old saying is give a man a fish and he eats for a day but teach him to fish and he feeds himself forever. It is not happening. There is just enough money trickling through to keep people waiting for the fish.

4. At the infrastructure level, the provincial government has milked everything north of the Severn River since Ontario was a province. Moosonee is one of, if not the oldest settlement in Ontario, and does not have a road. This area has provided great wealth to this province in terms of minerals, timber, paper and power, but the infrastructure is at best minimal even in the non native areas. This area actually kept the province financially solvent during the depression. The Cree of Quebec appear to be doing much better. They have roads and therefore the ability to interface with the rest of the world. Last I heard, Air Creebec is a success story. In Ontario, north of HIghway 11 and North of Highway 17 west of Thunder Bay, there is not much.

5. At the Band Executive level, there is an ongoing conflict of interest of power versus service to band members. Anything that would bypass the band executive and go directly to band members would be considered a denigration of native sovereignty, especially if coming from the federal government. You are seeing howling about that now. Send in the UN, Send in the Army, Send more money...But do not dare take any direct action outside of the Indian Act that states what our power base is.

And I am sure that I am not even seeing half of it. It appears to me to be a system in failure at many levels at once.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Attawapiskat must pay Ottawa appointee $1,300 a day | CTV News

speaking of 'FAIL', 1300 bucks *a day* for the Ottawa appointee.


----------



## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

groovetube said:


> Attawapiskat must pay Ottawa appointee $1,300 a day | CTV News
> 
> speaking of 'FAIL', 1300 bucks *a day* for the Ottawa appointee.


Hey. Now you know the price of failure. If you cannot/will not do your job (and I humbly suggest that if you cannot even get it together to put in a budget, that is what you are involved with), you either hire someone to do it for you or your supervisors will step in. The federal government does run the Indian Act. They have stepped in.

This band could have gone to the most successful reserve in Canada or the U. S. (and I am sure it is common knowledge in the native community what the proper choice of reserves would be in this regard) and hired native expert to get the hands on learning and experience, all within the native context. I am also sure it would have cost about $1300 per day.

You are talking executive management fees plus expenses here on a multi million dollar enterprise. No Dollarama cashiers need apply.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm sorry, but paying one person 1300/day is ridiculous. At close to 340,000 a year? That's more than what the prime minister's salary is...

And I would like to know how, this reserve could possibly afford such a thing when the budget is half that per capita of non natives.

I don't know what the problems are internally. How could I know. But on the outside, anyone can clearly see the lies and insinuations of the government(s) in this. I suggest you spend some time reading some of links to information on this.


----------



## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

groovetube said:


> I'm sorry, but paying one person 1300/day is ridiculous. At close to 340,000 a year? That's more than what the prime minister's salary is...


You are not paying one person. You are paying a company. Apparently that's what they bill him out at.

It's a lot of money. Wish I could bill like that.

I am making the assumption that this figure is in his going rate range for his reputation/status/company status/level of responsibility and not a special rate "just because we can".

Also, this band is not a corner store. It is a multi million dollar operation AND a hostile situation AND in a remote location. The combination insures that the top rate in the range will be demanded and most likely be received.

.... And that is the cost of abject failure.

We will see who ends up with the bill in the end.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Lichen Software said:


> You are not paying one person. You are paying a company. Apparently that's what they bill him out at.
> 
> It's a lot of money. Wish I could bill like that.
> 
> ...


It says in the G&M article on the subject it is the going rate for third party management... 

Tory appointee charges $1,300 a day to run Attawapiskat finances



> ...*The price tag is well within the going rate, say those familiar with third-party management of native reserves.* Assembly of First Nations officials say per-diem rates for third-party managers are between $1,000 and $3,000, plus expenses.
> 
> Stan Beardy – Grand Chief of Nishnawbe Aski Nation, which includes Attawapiskat – says that communities in the James Bay region would normally have to pay $200,000 and $300,000 a year for such a government appointee...


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well thank goodness that's the "going rate".


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

screature said:


> It says in the G&M article on the subject it is the going rate for third party management...
> 
> Tory appointee charges $1,300 a day to run Attawapiskat finances


Who's hiring at the going rate? I can only think of one party.

A small community supporting a consultant paying for the price of a Canadian Prime Minister's yearly salary. 

Who thinks this is a sensible resolution to an emergency situation to house people and to provide remedial action for a warm and sanitary, healthy and safe living conditions? 

Who thinks spending nearly $1300.00 per day as overhead to a private consultant is a wise use of tax dollars while people live in shacks, tents and squalor?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

BigDL said:


> Who's hiring at the going rate? I can only think of one party.
> 
> A small community supporting a consultant paying for the price of a Canadian Prime Minister's yearly salary.
> 
> ...


So what is your solution oh wise one? One that satisfies *all *parties at a cost effective rate?

Does your hero Charlie Angus, who has been their MP for years and can do nothing more constructive other than garner sound bites and photo ops, have one...? 

Maybe his glorious leader Nycole Turmel..? All she has up her sleeve is calling in the military... Oka anyone? Yeah that is likely to go over well without the express request of the band themselves... what a joke, how foolish and ridiculous. 

A "government in waiting" should have an alternative plan and they clearly have none... all they can do is criticize without anything constructive to offer at all because they quite simply haven't any realistic alternatives to offer other than throwing money at a situation that is already bleeding money.... If you don't stop the bleeding at it's source all the transfusions in the world will be of no use.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

it's hard to speculate on situations that most likely won't happen. It is hard for me to imagine when I shall be in a position to enact any sort of legislation or public policy flowing therefrom.

Now Sheila Fraser the Previous Auditor General of Canada did bring forth, in final report, ways and means to resolve the appalling conditions and systemic deficits on First Nation's territories.

CBC News report on Sheila Fraser AG's Report

EMMA LUI report on Sheila Fraser AG's Report

Now I will state I would feel it's deplorable that Our Glorious Leader's Minister's first reaction was in fact *no action*. Especially when Our Glorious Leader's pride in Action Plan's. Kind'a Ironic.

The second action which now seems to be Our Glorious Leader's Action Plan is to blame everyone else. 

Blame the victims, blame the Local MP, blame the Opposition Parties. Start to be pro active by being punitive with the Appointment of the Third Party Administrator at $1300.00 a day from already underfunded budget. This action, by the way, may stop other First Nation's from declaring emergencies or speaking out about the deplorable conditions and nip the crisis (that is the crisis for the Government) in the bud.

Now some seem to think they are in a position to offer up change in the real world, not just the cyber world, perhaps we could be enlightened as to the proper action plan for First Nations. Are we just going to hear the rehash of Our Glorious Leader's talking points and dispersions directed away from the Ruling Oligarchy*

*oligarchy |ˈäliˌgärkē; ˈōli-|
noun ( pl. -chies)
*a small group of people having control of a country,* organization, or institution : the ruling oligarchy of military men around the president.
• a state governed by such a group : the English aristocratic oligarchy of the 19th century.
• government by such a group.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Oh, for Pete's sake! You can't have an oligarchy when an election can toss them out of power. That's a sad abuse of the dictionary.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Oh, for Pete's sake! You can't have an oligarchy when an election can toss them out of power. That's a sad abuse of the dictionary.


In the last Parliament we saw a much different situation when the Prime Minister(or PMO) and cabinet control everything in Parliament. 

The ultimate downfall of Majority Government.

Yes in four years from (when is it again) ? October 19, 2015? there will be a next be another election. Until then an Oligarchy exists and rules. For real and for true.

Do you now understand why I favour minority Parliaments.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

By that definition, it would be a monopoly.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

There are many, many indian bands in this county who are doing well. They just don't make the news. The town I live in has the largest open pit gravel mine in North America in the middle of it. Guess whose land it is on? There are still some social problems here, but because the local Indian Band achieved a municipal style of self government, they don't make the news all that often.

My experience with first nations is mostly on the infrastructure side of things. Water and sewer.

The simple truth is that without a feeling of 'ownership' and 'self-reliance' on their part, there is not enough money to keep these indian bands running by throwing money at the situation. They have to learn to do maintenance and upkeep on what they are given. They have to learn 'pride of ownership', and because they have been 'given' everything, where is the incentive?

The housing crisis in Attawapiskat started when the sewers backed up, flooding some homes. Why did the sewers back up? Probably because proper maintenance hadn't been done to the sewer system.

Now, you and I, if we had a sewer back up in our house, would probably clean it up, do the necessary repairs, perhaps get new carpets, and carry on living. But of course the first thing we would do would be to make sure our infrastructure was working properly. Clean the drains. Pay the taxes that pay the municipal workers who keep things running. Work together for the common good.

On the reserves where there are the most problems, the concept of 'us' and 'working together' isn't common. The overall thinking is that 'someone else' ought to be responsible. 'The Government'. There's no responsibility taken by the individual.

So, instead of having someone who lives on the reserve take care of the water and sewer system, 'The Government' has to hire someone to come in and keep things running. So, a third party has to come in from outside, usually at great expense, to do maintenance on the water and sewer system. Sometimes this doesn't happen. The systems run for a while, but then they eventually break. In most municipalities they would be repaired. In the worst situations, where no one is willing to take responsibility, they end up with no potable water or a sewer system that backs up.

Indian Reserves don't have bad water because they haven't been given water treatment systems. Indian Reserves have bad water because the water treatment systems they've been given have not been MAINTAINED.

Indian Reserves don't have a lack of adequate housing because they having been given housing. Indian Reserves have a lack of adequate housing because the housing they have been given haven't been MAINTAINED.

And until the pride of ownership is instilled, the willingness to do maintenance on what has been provided, and the end of shifting of responsibility to others takes place, throwing buckets of money or blaming 'The Government' will never solve the problems.

Bringing in a third party financial officer is no different than having to bring in a third party water treatment plant operator. Sometimes it has to be done. It just doesn't make the news when Epcor or Aquatech runs the water and sewer systems.

I realize what I've said here isn't politically correct. But it's the truth. As I said at the beginning - there are plenty of Indian Bands in Canada who are doing well. They just don't make the news.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Macfury said:


> By that definition, it would be a monopoly.


Yes, yes, I forgot that when the Government and Minister were found in contempt of Parliament that was just a trick, a fluke if you will.

It not REAL until MF approved then?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

BigDL said:


> Yes, yes, I forgot that when the Government and Minister were found in contempt of Parliament that was just a trick, a fluke if you will.
> 
> It not REAL until MF approved then?


What the hell are you going on about?


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## chimo (Jun 9, 2008)

Was watching TV and noticed this on the screen. Paused the PVR and took a pic. Notice the Mac?


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

oh my god. a native with a mac? Arrest him.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

chimo said:


> Was watching TV and noticed this on the screen. Paused the PVR and took a pic. Notice the Mac?


G5 and a CAT monitor I think.

Mac have always been big in Moosonee and up the coast. For the original Apple Dealer in Timmins, I think it was his largest customer by far. If you are going to send up computers, it actually makes sense. By and large high quality parts and minimal maintenance. big plusses in an isolated area.


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## chimo (Jun 9, 2008)

groovetube said:


> oh my god. a native with a mac? Arrest him.


Why did you assume that this was a shot at the community? It wasn't. This is a Mac forum. Perhaps I should have started a new thread as things were getting heated in this one.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

context my friend, context.

In a thread that was largely people arguing over this issue and plenty of accusations of the natives mismanaging their money, I don't think my sarcastic comment is surprising at all.


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## chimo (Jun 9, 2008)

groovetube said:


> context my friend, context.
> 
> In a thread that was largely people arguing over this issue and plenty of accusations of the natives mismanaging their money, I don't think my sarcastic comment is surprising at all.


Didn't read the whole thread - just the title. So your comment, I suppose, could have been expected. Anyhow, that was not my intent.

Please resume the heated debate.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

sorry. I believe you, but yeah, in this thread, it's easy to come to that conclusion.


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## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Here is the perspective of Eastern Ontario First Nation's activist Bob Lovelace:

http://rabble.ca/news/2011/12/attawapiskat-and-colonialism-seeing-forest-and-trees
Attawapiskat and colonialism: Seeing the forest and the trees

By Robert Lovelace
| December 6, 2011
If you can cut through the racism, ignorance, and half-baked opinions of pundits, politicians and sound-bite media, most folks will realize that Attawapiskat and many other First Nations have been labouring under the repression of colonialism far too long.

The antidote for poverty is self-determination and no one can give you that. You have to stand up and take action yourself to make it happen. Colonialism does not give way on its own; it must be defeated through vigorous and enlightened opposition.

It is difficult in the face of human suffering to turn attention to the systemic and structural reasons that have led to this catastrophe, but this is the very time when thoughtful analysis is needed. The homes are small and cold. The tedium of poverty bears down day by day and those who have stolen your children's future call the daily bread on your table a "handout". It is difficult to feel anything but shame through the numbing that is required to get by every day.

But there are reasons behind this suffering. There is a history. There is a structure to oppression, denial and indifference that houses this suffering and there is a system that perpetuates it.

In the "South" we have witnessed as voyeurs the misery of Attawapiskat, a misery that is shared by many Indian Reserves in Canada. The pictures are disturbing and cause Canadians to be thankful for the affluence that is smugly enjoyed in the "South". When people tire of the pictures, they will accept that it is the Indian's fault. As the prime minister of Canada has said, they mismanaged the money we sent to them and they have failed to govern themselves as civilized people do. Canadians have drawn this conclusion many times in the last 140 years to help themselves and Aboriginal people all "understand".

It is in the national interest to believe this well-worn explanation; no one could bear the responsibility and guilt that somehow the wealth and thriving economy of Canada is purchased each and every day because Aboriginal people in their own homelands suffer. What Canadians cannot suffer is that while the misery is in the "North", the source of the problem is in the "South".

It is interesting to know that the Confederation Debates (1864-1866) never really considered the Indigenous people of Canada. Aboriginal nations were not consulted and there was no discussion of how they might share in the democratic development of Canada even though they represented the majority of the population at the time. Only at the insistence of the British Crown was section 91-24, making Indians and lands reserved for Indians a Federal responsibility, inserted into the Constitution Act of 1867.

The debates were a struggle for settler power involving partisanship, corruption, self-interest and even a fistfight. While the new Canadian Government was saddled with an undefined responsibility, Britain continued to negotiate Treaties in areas beyond Canada's geographic limits. Canada assumed the Treaty responsibilities as a condition of Confederation. Eventually, Canadian Indian policy and subsequent legislation came to rest on four pillars: residential schools, reserves, reductionist identification and unconscionable treaties. The sole purpose was ethnic cleansing. The same mentality that created an archipelago of residential schools was the same thinking that established the other three pillars of Indian policy.

The four pillars of Canadian Indian policy have all but stopped the natural development of Aboriginal nations. Over the last century and a half, once dynamic cultures that possessed the knowledge and language of the land of Canada have been forced into becoming cultures of dependency. Through wilful, ever present, strategies of assimilation, Canada and its provinces have undermined Indigenous economies, isolated productive people from their resources and robbed them of their right to profit from the bounty of their homelands.

To understand the present plight of communities like Attawapiskat it is essential to understand the "reserve system". Reserves were established as concentration camps where Indian people could be settled until such a time, through education or attrition, they assimilated into the growing underclass of Canada. In the early days some communities were seen as an experimental population in which liberal minds could tryout social modification. For the most part though, as long as Indians did not interfere or compete with commerce, agriculture, or extractive industries, they were left to fend for themselves. The Indian agent's job was primarily to round-up children for the growing Residential schools industry, keep adult Indians on reserve and report infractions of the law which controlled forbidden expressions of Indigenous culture.

Indian peoples do not own the reserves on which they live. The Reserve is Federally "owned"; it is land hived off from Provincial lands for Federal purposes much like military bases or Federal prisons. Aboriginal people have no more claim to the "reserve" than do prisoners have to the prisons in which they are incarcerated.

Over the years, over generations, the reserve has become home. For some it is a place where language and culture has been kept alive. It is a place of memory, of relations, of unity. The flimsy walls of houses are the fortress against assimilation. It is a place that you know and where you are known. It is a place of the people.

The reserve is also a halfway place. It is the way-stop between the homelands of our ancestors and nowhere. It is a dangerous place for both Indians and those who would see our people disappear altogether. For Aboriginal people it is the end of our indigeneity, the slow strangulation of our culture, our knowledge and our sustainable livelihoods. Reserves have come to symbolize for us the agonizing descent into dependency and superficiality. For the Canadians who would have our homelands for themselves it is the edge of the wilderness, it is a reminder of our power as a people to hold together, it is the place from which we will renew our claim to original jurisdiction and sovereignty. Because of these fears the Canadian government continues to manage the humanitarian disaster that has become so familiar in our lives.

There are some things that the federal government cannot explain about Attawapiskat. Indian reserves are an extension of the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development (AAND), governed by the Indian Act and regulated by the AAND bureaucracy. So why did it come as a surprise that Attawapiskat is on the verge of bankruptcy. The truth is that it was no surprise. The tragedy at Attawapiskat was not only predictable it was planned. The current government has promoted an ideological solution to the "Indian problem" ever since the Conservative's incubation as the Reform Party. Their strategy needs a tipping point to convince the Canadian public that it is the only, and more importantly the final, solution. If it not Kashechewan or Attawapiskat, it will be some other community taken to the depth of despair. The plan is to dissolve Reserve communities through offering them up as private property to individual band members and turning Bands into municipalities. One more step away from the legal titles and rights protected under Section 35 of the Canadian Constitution and one more step toward complete economic and social chaos in Indian country.

The current government cannot take all of the credit; Liberal and Progressive Conservative governments for the last 30 years have been losing sleep because Aboriginal Nations continue to dream about repatriation of homeland titles with control of their own resources. After all, this has been the pattern of decolonization globally by indigenous peoples for the past 60 years. The shell games of land claims and limited self-government are becoming transparently futile for First Nations. Ottawa has given up mediating the voracious appetites of provincial governments and extractive industries. Canada no longer believes in defending the "honour of the Crown" in keeping with Confederation commitments. The only "honourable" thing that they can imagine is to close down reserves by privatizing them. The reserves may be financially bankrupt but Canada is proving to be morally bankrupt in maintaining the goals of Indian policy masterminded in the 19th century.

The examples of colonial domination are inexhaustible and the power differentials are staggering. The deck is stacked against vulnerable communities like Attawapiskat and also against Aboriginal communities and Reserves that have made some progress toward self-sufficiency. As Aboriginal people we understand what would change our destiny but only through a convergence of our own self-determination and a willingness of Canada to decolonize can real change take place. This is not a partisan or ideological issue. Canadians must be prepared to return original jurisdiction to the Indigenous nations whose homelands the state of Canada rests within. Canadians and Indigenous nations need to negotiate real partnerships of mutual respect and benefit or face a certain future of mutual misery and conflict.

Personally, I refuse to live in a welfare state. I also refuse to assimilate into a nation state that is dependent on the suffering of my people in support of its own unsustainable affluence. It is really time to see the forest and the trees, move forward and take for our children and their children what is rightfully theirs. What are you going to do?

Robert Lovelace is an adjunct lecturer at Queen's University in the Department of Global Development Studies. His academic interests include Indigenous Studies, Sustainable Development and Aboriginal education. Robert is also an activist in anti-colonial struggles. In 2008, Robert spent 3 ½ months as a political prisoner for his part in defending the Ardoch Algonquin First Nation homeland from uranium exploration and mining. Robert is a retired chief of the Ardoch Algonquin First Nation. He lives in the Algonquin highlands at Eel Lake in the traditional Ardoch territory.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

I take issue with almost everything he says except the first two sentences of the second paragraph.

"The antidote for poverty is self-determination and no one can give you that. You have to stand up and take action yourself to make it happen."

The rest is pretty inflammatory. He states some facts, but also expands those facts in unsupportable assertions. Saying things like the sole purpose of his supposed 'four pillars' being 'ethnic cleansing'. 

As I've said before, there are plenty of examples where Indian Bands are working independently and doing well. The activists will try to convince their people that in order for them to win, someone else has to 'lose'. It's time to start thinking about a win/win situations.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

inflammatory? You bet. Facing the truth is always likely to be pretty uncomfortable.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MLeh said:


> I take issue with almost everything he says except the first two sentences of the second paragraph.
> 
> "The antidote for poverty is self-determination and no one can give you that. You have to stand up and take action yourself to make it happen."
> 
> ...


Well said. Only people who feel like victims themselves on some level support such reasoning.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

groovetube said:


> inflammatory? You bet. Facing the truth is always likely to be pretty uncomfortable.


Facing which truth? 

Things like this: "a nation state that is dependent on the suffering of my people in support of its own unsustainable affluence"

Inflammatory, and also untrue. But it makes for good hyperbole.

Like I said - think 'win/win'. 

But it's hard when the activists like to play the 'victim' card.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

you don't think the natives were given the short end of the stick? Really? You aren't going to argue they didn't, I'm sure you weren't.

If so, perhaps you need a little refresher on history my friend. It seems most people feel the only solution is assimilation.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I think what's needed is a 21st century solution as opposed to a 19th century solution.

But, without the double standards.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

Reading comprehension 101: _'dependant on the suffering'_. This goes to the perception of a 'the only way someone can 'win' is for someone else to lose' (aka 'win/lose') perspective on life. I don't think the Indian Bands have to 'lose' in order for society in general to 'win'. 

I don't like others thinking that someone else has to 'lose' in order for them to 'win' either. It's not 'us' against 'them'. It should be 'we' - mutually beneficial.

Society has changed over the years. Things aren't the same in Europe as they were 'back when', and they aren't the same here either. The radicals want all 35(?) million of us to 'go away' so things can be the way they were before? Doesn't work that way. It is what it is, because it isn't any other way. So, either you're part of the solution, or you're a continuation of the problem. I'm all for 'equal, but different'. They have the right to choose a way of life, but they don't have the right to emotional blackmail based on some perception of continuing victimisation. That boat has sailed.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

You may wish to take a look at Treaty 7.

This is one way 'forward'.

There are plenty of other 'forward' examples.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't think the author was suggesting that it had to be, one winning, one losing. He was merely pointing out what has occurred.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MLeh said:


> You may wish to take a look at Treaty 7.
> 
> This is one way 'forward'.
> 
> There are plenty of other 'forward' examples.


The left-libs don't want a way forward. They want to continue to flagellate themselves over this for all eternity. There is no such word as "bygones" in their lexicon.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Not referring to any particular poster here but I do love how some have blamed corrupt band councils for all the problem. Same individuals who worship at the alter of either the federal Cons or Libs. Meanwhile both of these parties absolutely worship corruption and miss no opportunity to display their belief in its powers.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> The left-libs don't want a way forward. They want to continue to flagellate themselves over this for all eternity. There is no such word as "bygones" in their lexicon.


There are plenty of ways forward, you just don't like them that's all. Don't project your sense of victimhood on others.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

groovetube said:


> I don't think the author was suggesting that it had to be, one winning, one losing. He was merely pointing out what has occurred.


Our perceptions differ, then.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

so it would appear.


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## shurdell (Dec 12, 2011)

Lichen Software said:


> This is nothing new. I saw 8'x12' shacks in Arrowland, north of Geraldton in the summer of 1975. I have long maintained that north of Highway 11 you are entering the third world. So these types of conditions have been happening in various places through a whole string of governments.
> 
> What is different here is taking over band finances. Bands have guarded their ability to disburse as they saw fit. The government says they have piled over $90,000,000 in the last six years. The bands and the opposition are going to scream. Personally, I will be glad to see some accountability and I am glad that it is a third party doing it. I would like it to be non partisan. Then you have a chance at getting to reality. Is it not enough money? Is it money wasted? a little bit of both? I'd like to know.
> 
> ...


That $90 mil is an overall cost including the governments take on it, the lawyers, the accountants, the consultants. I can't believe how they get away with saying they give x amt of funds to natives and don't account for what comes off of it first. And as for a third party accountability I've seen so often where they could care less. They usually just want the $ and their answers fit in with what DIAND or some other hierarchy wants and that is it. Usually anyone who is honest is let go and greatly discouraged from saying what is the actual truth. Has anyone ever been on the wrong side of the government. At my age, I couldn't care less now but they sure can make life hard for you. So much for assistance, so much for free medical, so much for an education, so much for having a say in your land.

I was on another site earlier in regards to this same discussion and people were asking why these people who were in such desperate need continue to live there? 
Ask the government what their plans are to remedy the situation long term. I come from a reserve and we have policies crammed down our throats that certainly aren't for our benefit. If we tell the government the system they have in place for us isn't working because it benefits only those in power, they tell us to take it up with our Council who are the ones who are cramming it down our gullets. We've tried voting them out but the votes get bought and how can we prove it?
Why do I continue to live here? Because my mom is 92 years old and this is where she wants to live but she doesn't want all her children deserting her (as she calls it & she is planning to live until she is a 100 at least) Where do we go to get jobs? off reserve. Unless your a yes man/woman you don't stand a chance and for me I just can't swing that way.
Am I on welfare? No, I don't qualify. I receive a 297.00/mo. death benefit pension from my husband so I earn too much. My sons, brothers and sisters provide my food & housing. Savings only last so long when you are unemployed for a few years.
I worked hard most of my life providing for my children but am not old enough for pension and have no other means to self employment. Reserve life is disgusting when you get in power those who rule by power & not compassion but the elders just feel it is home. Not starving we have our food from nature so it is good but hard work.
The Canadian governmental system just doesn't work but in talking with friends from the US & other places, neither does theirs. God says that we should take care of our homes first in provision then others but seems like our governments like to take care of others first. I'd like to give my people a kick in the butt but normally they just ignore anyone who will take that little bit out of their hands that is offered for a vote. XX)
I can't really complain. I go off reserve or chat with my non-native friends (I'm always excusing myself for being 'not politically correct' for who I am but I already know who I am so call me what you like.) and some of them have a very tough life and it hasn't gotten any better. It seems that when you are down and out it is almost useless to stand. Some fight to the top, others fight but keep getting slapped down by the officials, neighbours, so called friends etc., some die fighting, some just don't bother when they view the plight of others.
I would say that the only way we can get out is to remember to have compassion and charity. Anyone can no matter where we are. I still help others with my limited income so when something good happens to you, pass it on!
Enough ranting.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

Hi Shurdel,

I don't claim to know the answers. What you are saying seems to indicate that you feel both the govermemt is too far away and the council is corrupt
In your experience.

Being from a small northern town, I know that my first move to a city for me many years ago was a total culture shock. I imagine that a government looking the other way into a reserve is not a whole lot different. Hopefully they have people who can see past the Rideau canal. On the other hand it could be that the best one could hope for is that the money trail is uncovered and the outside auditor is actually independent. From the conditions I see in the news, no matter who is at fault, the current leadership for the band is in failure.One would like to know why.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

As they are politicians I am sure the band council is corrupt to some extent. At least they have to look their band members in the eye. OTOH No matter who is in charge, one would be hard pressed to deny corruption at the federal level. So far Harpos only attempt at action involved an attempt to divert band money to a Harpo stringer.


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## shurdell (Dec 12, 2011)

Lichen Software said:


> Hi Shurdel,
> 
> I don't claim to know the answers. What you are saying seems to indicate that you feel both the govermemt is too far away and the council is corrupt
> In your experience.
> ...


The government is too far away in that they could care less what happens to the people as long as they can say they gave millions of dollars so it is the benefactors fault and the 'little people' will either just have to bear with it or move on not taking into consideration the elders who wish to die at home.

I was one of those who were sent off to school 1k miles away from home at the age of 13 so I have no qualms of leaving. I had left & come back with my husband & now just stay for my mom.

I don't look for answers, I just want others to know how inconsiderate the government officials are in Ottawa and not helpful at all. I'll bide my time and pray that either the local council will either find a heart of flesh or be succeeded by some who already have.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Some Attawapiskat residents at odds with chief
CBC

Seems Chief Spence's credibility isn't that high among some of her own people... 



> Some residents of Attawapiskat First Nations support the government's plan to put the reserve under third-party management, a move strongly opposed by the chief and band council.
> 
> "I think it would be a good thing. We need to clean up our financial crisis here in Attawapiskat because it's been like this too long now," Greg Shisheesh, a former deputy chief of the reserve, told CBC News in a phone interview.
> 
> ...





> Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence has vehemently rejected the imposition of a third-party manager.
> 
> "She says that and she didn't even ask the whole community what we thought about it. She never asked us," Shisheesh said. "The way the chief and council operate is totally opposite. They decide and then bring it to us after."...





> Martha Sutherland, a tribe elder, told CBC News she is frustrated with the reserve leadership.
> 
> "We want to hear what the Indian Affairs has to say, the third party, and we want to meet with them so we can voice our concerns."
> 
> ...





> A reserve member, who didn't want to be identified, said leadership on the reserve is like a dictatorship. "It's bad enough that we're under the Indian Act, but it just seems like our leadership becomes the oppressor in the end.
> 
> "It's always been like that," the resident said.
> 
> ...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

shurdell said:


> *The government is too far away* in that they could care less what happens to the people as long as they can say they gave millions of dollars so it is the benefactors fault and the 'little people' will either just have to bear with it or move on not taking into consideration the elders who wish to die at home.
> 
> I was one of those who were sent off to school 1k miles away from home at the age of 13 so I have no qualms of leaving. I had left & come back with my husband & now just stay for my mom.
> 
> I don't look for answers, I just want others to know how inconsiderate the government officials are in Ottawa and not helpful at all. I'll bide my time and pray that either the local council will either find a heart of flesh or be succeeded by some who already have.


The government is no further away from you (or any other reserve) than they are from those who live in Victoria or Whitehorse, distance away from the government is not an issue.... it may have been in a different era, but it certainly cannot be viewed so in the 21st century.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

> Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence has vehemently rejected the imposition of a third-party manager.
> 
> "She says that and she didn't even ask the whole community what we thought about it. She never asked us," Shisheesh said. "The way the chief and council operate is totally opposite. They decide and then bring it to us after."...


You'd think it was Harpo Land


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## shurdell (Dec 12, 2011)

screature said:


> The government is no further away from you (or any other reserve) than they are from those who live in Victoria or Whitehorse, distance away from the government is not an issue.... it may have been in a different era, but it certainly cannot be viewed so in the 21st century.


What I meant by the comment is they give lip service. Their hearts are not here or with any reserve. 
I once found a link on the DIAND's site to speak directly to the office in Ottawa when the DIAND office for our region seemed to not want to deal with anyone other than the mayor or band manager and the same with our representing Law office. At the time I had a seat on council and have had numerous years experience back in the 1980's. When I was voted in on that election I found out that council was told and believed that they had no right to information other than what was absolutely necessary for them to make a decision and only enough info was given with no questions answered. Very undemocratic. So I told the mayor, band administrator and council that they had it all wrong and started demanding information. I searched old records to find what I could on my own and when I found this link I messaged DIAND minister in Ottawa and told him I was holding them accountable for the total mismanagement of our band according to the Indian Act because the employees of our regions DIAND wouldn't give us information that we as council had a right to. That was on a Friday and on Monday morning I walked into a grim chamber and information flowed freely for that month at any rate. Then the mayor and band manager opened an office a 1000 miles away and I guess important records went there.
I know some of our elders were also hoping to get a forensic audit but were told that it wouldn't be much good because unless they shut everything down and find all the records, it would be incomplete!!! I realize accounting but if records are missing, with me anyway and any good accountant, the warning signals go up.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

*Finally something positive*

Well it took an incredibly long time but King Harpo has finally tackled one long standing problem.



> Feds call for tenders to build long-awaited school in troubled Attawapiskat
> 
> OTTAWA - The federal government is moving to build an elementary school in Attawapiskat, more than three decades after contamination of the remote northern Ontario reserve's first school.
> 
> ...


The entire CP article here:
Feds call for tenders to build long-awaited school in troubled Attawapiskat - Yahoo! News


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_*Anybody else surprised by this?*_

*Feds cut First Nations housing spending*



> The federal government is planning drastic cuts to First Nations social housing next year, a move some say will lead to greater poverty, disease and social problems.
> 
> Saskatchewan First Nations leaders had hoped the Attawapiskat First Nation housing crisis last year, which sparked national outrage, would have led to an increase in social housing budgets and a recognition of First Nations' treaty right to shelter. Instead, they say there will be a 30 per cent cut for the coming year.
> 
> With a shortfall of more than 11,000 housing units, the 70-plus Saskatchewan First Nations will receive a total of $18.7 million for new construction and repairs. That amount is expected to remain constant for the following year as well.





> A spokesperson in the office of Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan said the issue is the responsibility of CMHC. A CMHC spokesman was not available for comment Tuesday afternoon.


(LeaderPost)


----------



## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> _*Anybody else surprised by this?*_
> 
> *Feds cut First Nations housing spending*
> 
> ...


Good. How much more do we have to give them? If a 'white' town wasn't viable, would the government give them money to stay there? I don't think so.

Let's put an end to treating natives different. Let's end racism.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Little something called, treaties. You know, agreements etc.

Something many like to forget about.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

imnothng said:


> Good. How much more do we have to give them? If a 'white' town wasn't viable, would the government give them money to stay there? I don't think so.
> 
> Let's put an end to treating natives different. Let's end racism.


It's interesting that the expectation is that shelter be provided for the entire population, no matter how large it grows. Is this supposed to be an eternal benefit, with no sunset clause?


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

* JMFC!!* Do we have to go through this again with you people? Go back and re-read this thread from the beginning.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

unbelievable.

Or, rather predictable take your pick.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> * JMFC!!* Do we have to go through this again with you people? Go back and re-read this thread from the beginning.


I consider many of your ideas to be outliers. Don't be offended if you find your positions challenged.


----------



## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

groovetube said:


> Little something called, treaties. You know, agreements etc.
> 
> Something many like to forget about.


right.. it seems when the Native reserves feel like it they can blockade and claim anything or land saying you know what.. we want to redo what our fore fathers signed. LOL

so if they can play hard ball so can we..


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> right.. it seems when the Native reserves feel like it they can blockade and claim anything or land saying you know what.. we want to redo what our fore fathers signed. LOL
> 
> so if they can play hard ball so can we..


what a pile sheer nonsense.

If you think for one minute that -we- got the short end of the stick, perhaps it's time to shut off your computer, and step out your front door sometime and join the real world.

Tell us more about our right to play, "hard ball".

LOL indeed.


----------



## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

groovetube said:


> what a pile sheer nonsense.
> 
> If you think for one minute that -we- got the short end of the stick, perhaps it's time to shut off your computer, and step out your front door sometime and join the real world.
> 
> ...


So your saying it is okay that they can harass and assault people up who bought homes from builders.. and police do nothing?
Caledonia, Ontario - unless you forgot..
residences lost their homes and province had buy the homes at below market value for the home owners and gave the property to the natives.. 
sorry but they should abide by the same rules and laws as we do.. 
you should wake up.

read this Caledonia: The town that law forgot - The Globe and Mail
and if you think this is normal behavour by natives you are seriously cracked..
they held people hostage and beat them senseless. and you think that is normal?

they prevent people from entering their homes because the natives had a curfew on the town - police did nothing.. sickening. 
quote from the one of the town people "Then, as the ATVs screamed and circled around, Brian Skye, a purported native security boss, pulled up. "He told me if I didn't get in his truck, these guys would beat the **** out of me," he told the court. "I looked at Dana, she's scared to death; I'm scared to death. I got in the truck."

or what about this, he calls the police to be taken home and this happens. 

"Just for trying to go to my own house," he said, "I got thrown in jail."

enough is enough.. when my roof leaks.. I dont call Stephen Harper and blame him for it..


----------



## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Let's review the circumstances of buying stolen goods or property. 

The purchaser loses the goods or property to the police, the purchaser might even be charged with possession of stolen goods or property.

Are you asking, in every circumstance, for the persons in receipt of stolen goods or property would be rewarded? 

My! My! Where are the law and order types?


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

BigDL said:


> Let's review the circumstances of buying stolen goods or property.
> 
> The purchaser loses the goods or property to the police, the purchaser might even be charged with possession of stolen goods or property.
> 
> ...


This doesn't seem to occur to those who have no idea. They'll just post over and over again 'oh my gawd, why on earth could they be upset??'

It just won't ever dawn on them.


----------



## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

groovetube said:


> This doesn't seem to occur to those who have no idea. They'll just post over and over again 'oh my gawd, why on earth could they be upset??'
> 
> It just won't ever dawn on them.


They can either stay upset and be powerless and whine about their lives, or they can get over it. They get free schooling, but how many use it, they have the ability to live better the most powerful chief in history, but they don't?

Sorry, but they'll get no sympathy for me. If some alien wants to come here and give me the opportunity to live a greater life than Steve Jobs could ever have, I will welcome them with open arms.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm afraid that post didn't make any sense whatsoever.


----------



## imnothng (Sep 12, 2009)

groovetube said:


> I'm afraid that post didn't make any sense whatsoever.


I'm sorry to hear that.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Some interesting points / perspectives below...*

*What If Natives Stop Subsidizing Canada?*

There is a prevailing myth that Canada’s more than 600 First Nations and native communities live off of money — subsidies — from the Canadian government. This myth, though it is loudly proclaimed and widely believed, is remarkable for its boldness; widely accessible, verifiable facts show that the opposite is true.

Indigenous people have been subsidizing Canada for a very long time.

* * * 

It’s true that Canada’s federal government controls large portions of the cash flow First Nations depend on. Much of the money used by First Nations to provide services does come from the federal budget. But the accuracy of the myth ends there.

On the whole, the money that First Nations receive is a small fraction of the value of the resources, and the government revenue that comes out of their territories.

* * * 

Right now, DeBeers is constructing a $1 billion mine on the traditional territory of the Āhtawāpiskatowi ininiwak. Anticipated revenues will top $6.7 billion. Currently, the Conservative government is subjecting the budget of the Cree to extensive scrutiny. But the total amount transferred to the First Nation since 2006 — $90 million — is a little more than one percent of the anticipated mine revenues. As a percentage, that’s a little over half of Harper’s cut to GST.

Royalties from the mine do not go to the First Nation, but straight to the provincial government. The community has received some temporary jobs in the mine, and future generations will have to deal with the consequences of a giant open pit mine in their back yard.

Attawapiskat is subsidizing DeBeers, Canada and Ontario.​
(West Coast Native News)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm sorry, CubaMark, but that simply makes no sense. It's like saying Ford subsidizes Canada, subsidizes the countries that grow rubber and subsidizes the government.

The establishment of the Victor Diamond Mine was approved by a vast majority of people in the area--if they didn't like the IBA, they should not have approved it. While royalties go to the provincial government, as per provincial law, some money also goes into a trust fund.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I'm sorry, CubaMark, but that simply makes no sense. It's like saying Ford subsidizes Canada, subsidizes the countries that grow rubber and subsidizes the government.
> 
> The establishment of the Victor Diamond Mine was approved by a vast majority of people in the area--if they didn't like the IBA, they should not have approved it. While royalties go to the provincial government, as per provincial law, some money also goes into a trust fund.


Agreed. 

What a bunch of hogwash. If the people of Attawapiskat developed the mine it would be one thing but they didn't so they subsidize nothing at all. 

Really twisted logic (actually no logic at all) in that article.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

It seems there's an attempt to create some sort of connection between the $90 million received from the government and the profits expected by DeBeers. This is a little like me telling my neighbour I want him to give me $1,000 because it's certainly a pittance compared to the cost of mothballing the Oakville natural gas power plant or buying a race car--he numbers are unrelated.

I took a bit of a look at the Victor mine operations, and the huge start-up costs have not shown any recent profits for DeBeers--the tax paid to Canada was zero for 2011, so I don't know what sort of "subsidy" this represents to the people of Canada. However, the company has sourced more than half of its contracted work locally. 

There are other possibilities for diamond mines in the area, so if the First Nations were unhappy with the IBA they overwhelmingly (85%) supported, they will be able to negotiate an IBA more to their liking on the next mine. If there are no corporate takers, they can also choose to develop the resources themselves.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Métis win Appeal Court ruling giving them Indian status*

The Federal Court of Appeal has largely upheld a landmark ruling that could vastly expand the ranks of people considered Indians under the Constitution.

A Federal Court ruling last year brought Metis and non-status Indians into the ranks of people considered "Indians" under the Constitution.

On Thursday, the Appeal Court upheld part of that decision — ruling that only Metis are included as Indians under the Constitution, but not non-status Indians.

The case dragged on for years before last year's ruling.

The Congress of Aboriginal Peoples and several Metis and non-status Indians took the federal government to court in 1999, alleging discrimination because they were not considered "Indians" under a section of the Constitution Act.

If the decision is left to stand, it would vastly expand Ottawa's responsibilities for hundreds of thousands of aboriginal people in Canada who are not affiliated with specific reserves and have essentially no access to First Nations programs, services and rights.

The ruling today came after the federal government appealed an earlier decision that granted 600,000 Métis and non-status the same rights as status Indians.

(CBC)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

That's certainly bad news for the budget.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

Attawapiskat co-manager charged with theft, fraud | Toronto Star

The Attawapiskat audit was commissioned by Ottawa in December 2011 after Spence had declared the reserves’s state of emergency.
The Conservative government questioned why the problems existed, given the millions of dollars provided to Attawapiskat over the years, and Ottawa briefly imposed an external manager on the band.

how am I not surprised..


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlkuRCXdu5A


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

CubaMark said:


> *Métis win Appeal Court ruling giving them Indian status*
> The ruling today came after the federal government appealed an earlier decision that granted 600,000 Métis and non-status the same rights as status Indians.
> 
> (CBC)


Hmm. My great Grand mother was Metis. Tempting to jump on the native gravy train! 5 kids with "free" University would be wonderful.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MacGuiver said:


> Hmm. My great Grand mother was Metis. Tempting to jump on the native gravy train! 5 kids with "free" University would be wonderful.


May as well--it's the only thing that will help you recoup the losses heaped on you by "progressives."


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*This is from the perspective of aboriginals in the USA, but change a few details (e.g., residential schools) and it could easily apply to Canada:*

_"A white man and an elderly Native man became pretty good friends, so the white guy decided to ask him: “What do you think about Indian mascots?” The Native elder responded, “Here’s what you’ve got to understand. When you look at black people, you see ghosts of all the slavery and the rapes and the hangings and the chains.

When you look at Jews, you see ghosts of all those bodies piled up in death camps. And those ghosts keep you trying to do the right thing. “But when you look at us you don’t see the ghosts of the little babies with their heads smashed in by rifle butts at the Big Hole, or the old folks dying by the side of the trail on the way to Oklahoma while their families cried and tried to make them comfortable, or the dead mothers at Wounded Knee or the little kids at Sand Creek who were shot for target practice. You don’t see any ghosts at all.

“Instead you see casinos and drunks and junk cars and shacks. “Well, we see those ghosts. And they make our hearts sad and they hurt our little children. And when we try to say something, you tell us, ‘Get over it. This is America. Look at the American dream.’ But as long as you’re calling us Redskins and doing tomahawk chops, we can’t look at the American dream, because those things remind us that we are not real human beings to you. And when people aren’t humans, you can turn them into slaves or kill six million of them or shoot them down with Hotchkiss guns and throw them into mass graves at Wounded Knee. “No, we’re not looking at the American dream. And why should we? We still haven’t woken up from the American nightmare."_ (Pedro Guanikeyu Torres)​


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Canada just took one giant step for Indigenous rights*

With painted faces, bowler hats, or in black business suits, hundreds of people listened intently on their United Nations’ issued interpreter headsets as Canada’s Minister of Indigenous and Northern Affairs, Carolyn Bennett, addressed the UN on Tuesday. She was expected to make a big announcement on the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.

“I’m here to announce, on behalf of Canada, that we are now a full supporter of the declaration without qualifications,” said Bennett.

The room burst into applause. Indigenous representatives from around the world had come for the 15th UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues and they stood and clapped—people from Siberia, Norway, West Papua, Ecuador, New Zealand and Algeria, to name a few of the widespread locations.

“What does this mean for Canada now?” continued Bennett. “It means nothing less than full engagement and how to move forward with adoption and implementation done in full partnership with First Nations, the Métis Nation, and Inuit Peoples.”

* * *​
Essentially, Canada’s endorsement of the UNDRIP could give Canada’s Indigenous people more power in battles ranging from land use to education—but only if it is followed.

Adopted by 143 countries in 2007, the non-binding document is a guideline establishing individual and collective rights to culture, language, education, employment, and more for Indigenous peoples. One of the document’s many defining characteristics is the right to free, prior, and informed consent, which prevents Indigenous people from being removed from their territories, becoming subject to legislative measures or development projects without approval.​
(Fusion)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

A full supporter of a non-binding document? Must have been a beautiful ceremony.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Oh dear God! Get ready for more whining and extortion followed by massive payouts and more whining and extortion for generations. Thanks Liberals.
I'd gladly trade my "white" privilege for "native" privilege.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Tardy bureaucrats causing First Nations' cost overruns*

"the cost increases largely occurred between the planning and execution stages," rather than after a contract had been signed with a builder. Contracted construction costs and final costs were usually about the same.

The problem, the consultants found, was that feasibility studies were often badly outdated by the time the department got around to approving projects, sometimes years later. And delays in funding approval meant that existing infrastructure on reserves deteriorated, further raising costs.

"When delays of three or more years are experienced, factors including inflation, deterioration of existing infrastructure and engineering/project fees are likely to contribute to increased costs."

In some cases, First Nations only got a green light for projects part way through the construction season.

"Communities often hire inexperienced contractors at a higher cost because approvals are granted in late spring," the authors wrote. "The inability to re-profile funding to the next fiscal year also forces communities to pay more for winter and overtime work."

The department's "internal approval processes contributed to delays that raised costs," says a December 2015 summary of the study.​
(CBC)


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_How do you spell "oblivious"?_ ..... *L-Y-N-N__B-E-Y-A-K*

*Senator Lynn Beyak says she has 'suffered' with residential school survivors*










Senator Lynn Beyak says she doesn't need any more education about the horrors of the residential school system because she "suffered" alongside Indigenous people who were sent to the institutions.

The Conservative senator from northwestern Ontario reiterated her defence of the schools in an interview with CBC News on Monday.

"I made my statements, and I stand by them," she said. "I think, if you go across Canada, there are shining examples from sea to sea of people who owe their lives to the schools," she said, while acknowledging that the bad parts of the schools were "horrific."

"I've suffered with them up there. I appreciate their suffering more than they'll ever know," she said. "The best way to heal is to move forward together. Not to blame, not to point fingers, not to live in the past."

Beyak, who sits as a member of the Senate's Aboriginal Peoples committee, said she has received hundreds of positive remarks after she delivered a speech in which she chastised the Truth and Reconciliation Commission for not "focusing on the good" of the "well-intentioned" institutions.

** * **​
Despite Beyak's claim she has been inundated with positive comments, other groups, including the Anglican Church of Canada, have gone public to denounce her remarks. "There was nothing good about children going missing and no report being filed. There was nothing good about burying children in unmarked graves far from their ancestral homes. It heaped cruelty upon cruelty for the child taken and the parent left behind," wrote the church, which ran some of the schools, in an open letter to Beyak.

The commission, which conducted an exhaustive six-year study of the residential school system, found physical, mental and sexual abuse was rampant, and some 6,000 children died while in care because of malnourishment or disease.

The Assembly of First Nations and other Indigenous leaders have reached out to Beyak since she made her comments — offering to provide further information about the system — but the senator said she doesn't need a history lesson because she has lived in northern Ontario for 40 years.
(CBC)​


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Time to drop this whole issue. It ended decades ago and this constant 'healing' stuff is tiring. It is over and the only way to heal is to forget it and move on like every other crisis that happens in anyone's lifetime. Dwelling on the past solves nothing.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm tired of Progs taking insult with every statement.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

SINC said:


> Time to drop this whole issue. It ended decades ago and this constant 'healing' stuff is tiring. It is over and* the only way to heal is to forget it and move on *like every other crisis that happens in anyone's lifetime. Dwelling on the past solves nothing.


Glad you're not my psychiatrist :yikes:

A close family member was fortunate to (literally) escape the residential school system... his siblings and cousins did not. The effects of that crime against humanity linger to this day in the damaged psyches of those who survived, and the families whose children never came home.

Why the **** do conservatives think you can "just get over it"? That's an incredibly heartless position to take. It's like telling the woman to _just lie back and think of England_, for Christ's sake. It's offensive.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> Glad you're not my psychiatrist :yikes:
> 
> A close family member was fortunate to (literally) escape the residential school system... his siblings and cousins did not. The effects of that crime against humanity linger to this day in the damaged psyches of those who survived, and the families whose children never came home.
> 
> Why the **** do conservatives think you can "just get over it"? That's an incredibly heartless position to take. It's like telling the woman to _just lie back and think of England_, for Christ's sake. It's offensive.


I sure would not want a psychiatrist claiming to help me by forcing me to relive a bad experience hour after hour, day after day, month after month and year after year to make me well again. I would want one who told me it is unfortunate it happened to me, it is best to forget it and concentrate now on taking advantage of the positives in my current life to give me a new attitude and new lease on the life ahead I must live.

If that makes me heartless in your opinion, you are entitled to it. In my world, it is called positive therapy and moving on to a better view of the life one has left to live.

Like you, I fail to understand why liberals cannot grasp a better concept than reliving the past.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I've had to get over some bad stuff. Sorry for anyone else who has to, but picking open old wounds sounds like a terrible way to recover.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

A thrice-convicted drunk driver runs a light and kills your daughter in a head-on collision.

Don't dwell on it. Move on. Forget her, stop reliving the past.

What are you, a bleeding heart liberal?

:yikes:


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Glad you're not my psychiatrist :yikes:
> 
> A close family member was fortunate to (literally) escape the residential school system... his siblings and cousins did not. The effects of that crime against humanity linger to this day in the damaged psyches of those who survived, and the families whose children never came home.
> 
> Why the **** do conservatives think you can "just get over it"? That's an incredibly heartless position to take. It's like telling the woman to _just lie back and think of England_, for Christ's sake. It's offensive.





SINC said:


> I sure would not want a psychiatrist claiming to help me by forcing me to relive a bad experience hour after hour, day after day, month after month and year after year to make me well again. I would want one who told me *it is unfortunate it happened to me, it is best to forget it and concentrate now on taking advantage of the positives in my current life *to give me a new attitude and new lease on the life ahead I must live.
> 
> If that makes me heartless in your opinion, you are entitled to it. In my world, it is called positive therapy and moving on to a better view of the life one has left to live.
> 
> Like you, I fail to understand why liberals cannot grasp a better concept than reliving the past.


Don, that is really simplistic especially when there are very few "positives" in one's life. I know from numerous family tragedies, that it is not so simple as to "forget and move on".

Yes you do your best but our brains are not computers where you can simply put something in the trash and delete it. Maybe you can do that but most of can't and quite frankly don't want to. Our past is part of who we are and to simply try to forget is like cutting of a finger or some other part of our body in order to try and feel better.

We do not necessarily need to think about it all the time, but for some people it is inescapable, the death of my brother at 6 from cancer is an example. Why would my mother want to forget her first born son? She did not recover well, she had to go into a psychic ward for a couple of months after he died and after that she was still never the same.

So why do you think that victims of the residential school system would be any different and just have to"suck it up" and forget?

Of course there is positive therapy, but it is far from a cure all... What one also needs is closure to let things go and no longer hold resentment and hatred. That is why the residential school victims still continue to suffer and even with "closure" probably always will.

Do you think that surviving members of the Holocaust should just forget and try and move on...? Move on, sure, but forget, never, it is impossible.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Obviously, it's not possible to forget. But I think that some therapies make things worse, not better.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Obviously, it's not possible to forget. But I think that some therapies make things worse, not better.


That is probably true... Again just anecdotally... My mother was seeing the same psychiatrist for over 20 years and all she did was prescribe new or different medication, sometimes without having actually seen my mother for 5 years or more. The "Dr." was basically a drug pusher.

Eventually later in life my uncle Dr. Russ (who was my father's brother) found out about the Dr.'s practice and said that her Dr.'s license should be revoked and he began legal proceedings to do so. Regrettably (or maybe positively) the Dr. died before the case could be heard.

I do not think my mother was alone in such practices by psychiatrists of a certain generation.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> A thrice-convicted drunk driver runs a light and kills your daughter in a head-on collision.
> 
> Don't dwell on it. Move on. Forget her, stop reliving the past.
> 
> ...


Not at all. And of course you do not forget a loved one who is gone. Like the brother I lost at age three to drowning for example.

But when you are abused, you must forget in order to move on. Period. 

Reliving the abuse does far more harm than concentrating on the good you can create in your current life, not the past. You cannot change what happened, but you can change your attitude and your future outlook on life.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

SINC said:


> Not at all. And of course you do not forget a loved one who is gone. Like the brother I lost at age three to drowning for example.
> 
> But when you are abused, you must forget in order to move on. Period.
> 
> Reliving the abuse does far more harm than concentrating on the good you can create in your current life, not the past. You cannot change what happened, but you can change your attitude and your future outlook on life.


Sounds great is theory. Have you ever done it successfully where the trauma that you experienced does not still cling on to you in some way or another!?

I was abused as a child not physically by a family member or friend. But I was psychologically abused by my "best friend" from the time I was 8 to at least 18 to 20 years old. 

I cut him out of my life after my father's death when he did not respond to my leaving a message with his wife that my father had died. I trust his wife implicitly, she told him, even his parents showed up at the Memorial to offer their condolences.

This guy was in our home maybe 1000 times or more and even spent a week with us at our cottage, he knew my father very well to say the least.

So yeah you can forget in your conscious mind or at least push it aside so you don't think about it on a regular basis. But I am haunted by him in my dreams, of which I have no conscious control over and let me just say they are not good feelings. And then those dreams come into my conscious mind which I need to suppress, time and time again.

And I suspect that would be the same for any victim of physical or psychological abuse. Easy enough to say "forget about it", but your subconscious never forgets.

So... I take great exception to what you posted because you clearly have no understanding of the details. Like I said to begin with in another post your views on the matter are far too simplistic. They do not represent the ongoing struggles of people who have been afflicted by abuse of one form or the other. Your "suck it up and move on" attitude would also not be appreciated by victims of PTSD, who ever they are, so yes you seem callous and non-empathetic or even sympathetic to those who are suffering.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

screature said:


> Sounds great is theory.
> 
> Your "suck it up and move on" attitude would also not be appreciated by victims of PTSD, who ever they are, so yes you seem callous and non-empathetic or even sympathetic to those who are suffering.


I never once used the term "suck it up".

And that does nothing more than show me your post is emotion and not clear thinking.

You have your demons, I have mine and others have theirs. I no more profess to have the ultimate solution than do you Steve.

Sorry, but people immersing themselves in the root cause of their sorrow will never heal themselves. If that makes me callous, so be it. What it does make me, is aware of the fact it is the only way out of the sorrow. Wallowing in it is not the answer.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

SINC said:


> *I never once used the term "suck it up".*
> 
> And that does nothing more than show me your post is emotion and not clear thinking.
> 
> ...


No you didn't, I just thought you would realize the use of common nomenclature to paraphrase what you did say which was pretty much the same thing:



> it is best to forget it


My post is emotional and rational because I am a human being. Your posts are almost never purely rational so don't talk down to me like I am some f**cking crybaby.

But you do profess to have a solution:



> it is best to forget it


I simply disputed your statement and offered no other solution. It is complicated and takes time. You seem to want to imply that it is easy and can be be done quickly, "it is best to forget it."

As I said to you before our brains are not built that way like a computer where you can put something in the trash and simply delete it. Where is the emotion in that? It is a simple fact.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

screature said:


> Easy enough to say "forget about it", but your subconscious never forgets.


The primary disagreement seems to be inter-generational versus individual. This does not dismiss the inter-generational impact of abusing an individual, but it adds a new perspective. For example, who benefits from eternal conflict and grievance, and do they tend to push nice sounding ideas (PR) with little evidence of success in healing?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Beej said:


> The primary disagreement seems to be inter-generational versus individual. This does not dismiss the inter-generational impact of abusing an individual, but it adds a new perspective. For example, who benefits from eternal conflict and grievance, and do they tend to push nice sounding ideas (PR) with little evidence of success in healing?


I think a lot of therapy is based on the recurring revenue model. So while people may not be able to forget appalling occurrences in their lives, some modes of therapy _make sure_ they can't and dwell endlessly on the past. There's a portion of society also determined to see that social wounds remain fresh and open for generations.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> I think a lot of therapy is based on the recurring revenue model. So while people may not be able to forget appalling occurrences in their lives, some modes of therapy _make sure_ they can't and dwell endlessly on the past. There's a portion of society also determined to see that social wounds remain fresh and open for generations.


A succinct note on my point exactly. Well put.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_Anybody heard of these asshats before? The "Proud Boys"? They felt that expressing their "pride" in their "white heritage" justified interrupting a Mi'kmaq event commemorating Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women (MMIW)._

*Navy apologizes after 5 Armed Forces members disrupt Indigenous event on Canada Day*










The commanding officer of the Royal Canadian Navy on the East Coast is apologizing for the actions of several members of the Canadian Forces who were involved in a confrontation during an Indigenous protest in Halifax on Canada Day.

Rear Admiral John Newton said Tuesday that members represent their institution even when they're off duty and out of uniform in their personal lives.

"I'll stand here in front of you and apologize to the Aboriginal community, to the whole public community that feels offended by the actions of fellow Canadians who wear the uniform," he told a group of reporters. 

On Saturday, a group of five men carrying a Red Ensign approached a gathering of Indigenous people and activists at the Edward Cornwallis statue in downtown Halifax. 

The gathering paused as the five men approached and the two groups exchanged words. The man who was carrying the flag said, "You're disrespecting General Cornwallis."

[*EDIT:* _For those who aren't aware, there has been a great deal of controversy in Nova Scotia in recent years regarding Halifax founder Edward Cornwallis, who issued a bounty on the scalps of Mi'kmaq men, women and children. There have been calls to remove his statue, rename his namesake street, and other educational initiatives surrounding the military governor_]

** * **​
The commander of the Royal Canadian Navy issued a statement on Facebook in response to the incident.

"The actions of a few do not reflect the Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Army commitment to being inclusive and diverse organizations," the statement from Vice-Admiral Ron Lloyd and Lt.-Gen. Paul Wynnyk said.

"Divisive behaviours in the unit, or communicated from their personal lives, are destructive to unit morale and combat effectiveness."

(CBC)​


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_A new, free to download book on native Canadians for those with an interest in the subject:_

*Whose Land Is It Anyway? A Manual for Decolonization*










We are pleased to announce the publication of Whose Land Is It Anyway? A Manual for Decolonization; inspired by a 2016 speaking tour by Arthur Manuel, less than a year before his untimely passing in January 2017. The book contains two essays from Manuel, described as the Nelson Mandela of Canada, and essays from renowned Indigenous writers Taiaiake Alfred, Glen Coulthard, Russell Diabo, Beverly Jacobs, Melina Laboucan-Massimo, Kanahus Manuel, Jeffrey McNeil-Seymour, Pamela Palmater, Shiri Pasternak, Nicole Schabus, Senator Murray Sinclair, and Sharon Venne. FPSE is honoured to support this publication.

(PDF Download)

(FPSE)​


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The land belongs to all current citizens of Canada.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Macfury said:


> The land belongs to all current citizens of Canada.


Raaaaaascist!!!


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*The horrors of St. Anne's*
*Ontario Provincial Police files obtained by CBC News reveal the history of abuse at the
notorious residential school that built its own electric chair*


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