# Did Apple blow it?



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> November 24th, 2008
> 
> *Apple’s new Macbooks: flop or fiasco?*
> 
> ...


Apple’s new Macbooks: flop or fiasco? | Storage Bits | ZDNet.com

Apple was on such a roll.

Then the Air face planted.

Now glossy screens for pro users and no choice in the matter.....and no speed gains and fewer ports into a cost conscious market.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

ZDNet? I'm not surprised?

Standard Solid State drives? He wants a new technology that is not cheaper and hasn't proven to be more power-efficient into a MacBook, but then goes on about how Apple needs to respond to market pricing reality? This article is a contradiction.

And actually, people have complained about flimsy feeling laptops before. This new design allows for a stury, smaller package - people have definitely asked for a smaller package.

That article was simply a ratings-grabber - no new insight whatsoever.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Apple’s new Macbooks: flop or fiasco? | Storage Bits | ZDNet.com
> 
> Apple was on such a roll.
> 
> ...


Good points MacDoc,

The article mentions HP doing well and I can see why. I recently saw a 17 inch HP core 2 duo notebook, 250 gig drive and 3 gigs of ram with Blueray for less than $900. If you can stomach vista or know not the greener pastures of OSX, HP is getting your business.
I do like the new macbooks however. Cutting firewire isn't a deal breaker for the average Joe but the price is. They should have had the low end macbook sub $1000 in my opinion. In light of this story and the economy, that may happen soon. 
The exclusively glossy screens on the pro models was ludicrous.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I think Apple needs to make a cheap Macbook. Many people get caught up in the costs of Macs. 

My brother won't even touch a Mac because of the cost. For $600 he can get a decent notebook, and the only downfall is Vista ( Vista is a huge down fall, but when you have never used OSX, you have no idea what you are missing). 

I am not liking the new direction of Apple, and I think it will hurt them big time especially now that the economy is in turmoil.


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

A few comments:

-I did not want blu-ray as I'm still skeptical about its future. 
-I did not want SSD because, as was previously noted, its benefits are not proven and the benefit to cost ratio is just insane. 
-I use my macbook in all lighting conditions and have not yet been defeated by the glass on my screen.
-I did indeed want something more sturdy as I was certainly noticing flex in my white MB
-I cannot recall the last time I used a fw port.

The article seems to be rather selective and contradictory. You complain that its not cheap enough, but you want Blu-Ray (I can spell it properly) and SSD?? 

The comment about windows-based notebooks dropping in price is very relative. Just a quick scan of Dell, HP, Compaq...etc comparing the spec of my MB with their specs, there's not that great a difference in price. Sure, I can run out and get an Acer laptop with a crappy factory reject processor for $500...but do I want it? No. And on top of that I have to use Vista? I don't think so

I do agree that there should be a less costly mac notebook, but not a piece of crap Celeron or Pentium Dual. Around $800 is fair I think.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Agreed. People talk about the halo effect of iPod's etc exposing them to Apple but IMO there needs to be a cheaper option for people to get used to OSX...and a cheap MacBook would be ideal given the student market. Given how loyal Mac users are it would make sense to get people hooked on a loss leader type product as they're very likely going to remain loyal and buy Apple next time round...and are likely to move up the food chain and purchase a higher priced model as they see value in the Apple brand / lifestyle etc.


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## DrewNL (May 23, 2005)

I can attest to the Halo effect. When I met my wife, she had an iMac. I started using hers and then ended up getting an iBook. Then a MacBook, then another....and an Airport Express and an AppleTV.....and I've had several iPods.

Apple just needs a low-level entry into the market to get people hooked. That being said, I'm with Steve when he says things like "Our conscience won't allow us to release sub-standard products". But I KNOW there is a way to release an OSX notebook for less than $999


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

I have to say despite the fact that sometimes the products from Apple may bomb from a margins perspective, I am still glad that Jobs has the vision to make these products despite the fact that they are expensive to make and to buy.

Imagine a world where the only car you could buy was Ford; no Porches, no Saabs, no Volvos or Lexus'? How boring?  

I am happy that Steve is still uncompromising in his vision for products. Right or wrong from a momentary shareholder perspective, he has demonstrated that that he has far more hits than misses. And even those misses were often just "bottom line" misses. The products themselves, as the article points out, can still be so revolutionary in design as to warrant being in a museum. They push the envelope and make possible new ways of thinking, seeing and doing.

I certainly hope that this economic downturn will no stop or stifle the design criteria that we have come to know and love from Apple.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If you call issuing a glossy screen for pro work uncompromising quality you might want to rethink it.....call it uncompromising margin chase by Apple.
Don't drink too much of Steve's Koolaid.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Gloss may have some affect on the MBP but not the MB. Like some of you have sid, It's all coming down to price vs value. You can get a notebook with equal or better specs then the Macbook for substantially cheaper on the Windows platform. During times like these, the fewer consumers spending money buy something they can afford up front at the register and feel less guilty about instead of something they want. Innovation and design is not fully immune to any market conditions especially when your competitors are closing the gap. 

Why would you consider the Air a flop? Perhaps a matured niche market for Apple? It sold really well in the first couple quarters and it is still marvelled at but there are limited corporate travellers that use the OSX platform and are willing to switch when limited harddrive space and performance makes porting Windows that much less appealing.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> If you call issuing a glossy screen for pro work uncompromising quality you might want to rethink it.....call it uncompromising margin chase by Apple.
> Don't drink too much of Steve's Koolaid.


I agree. 
Also, doesn't Apple use many of the same components inside that HP, Sony, Dell and other PC makers use? Hard drives, processors, lcds, memory, video cards? The majority of the guts of any mac is pretty much industry standard. I don't buy it that apple is that much better. 
Apple is certainly not uncompromising quality. The only problem I see with the Mac/Lexus comparison is that many mac products are Lexus on the outside and Chevy Cobalt on the inside.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

MACinist said:


> You can get a notebook with equal or better specs then the Macbook for substantially cheaper on the Windows platform.


This still doesn't fly. You can get a cheaper windows notebook, yes. But not with the top of the line Intel core2duo processors, 1066Mhz RAM, Built in Draft-N wifi, Bluetooth, and all the stuff that Apple bakes in there. 

I priced out a similar Dell XPSM1330 to a baseline MacBook (2.0Ghz) and I got $1309. FutureShop had the MacBooks on sale this weekend for $1299. Not so much difference.

There can be an arguement for the fact that maybe consumers don't *need* or *want* all of that stuff, and would rather Apple makes a $599 computer like Dell, with a bargain basement processor, screen, HD, Wifi, More Intel Graphics, etc... But again, under Steve Jobs, that probably ain't gonna happen.

Also, I was in the Eaton Centre this weekend... I saw no less than 5 people buying new MacBooks in the 10 minutes I was in the AppleStore. Even if that's the max/average for a whole hour - that means Apple sold 40 MacBooks on Saturday - and I saw more people buying them at FutureShop.

I'll wait to see the sales #'s this quarter, rather than declare the MacBooks a flop a month after their release. People said this about the Mini when it was released, and it's still a best seller.



MACinist said:


> Why would you consider the Air a flop? Perhaps a matured niche market for Apple? It sold really well in the first couple quarters and it is still marvelled at but there are limited corporate travellers that use the OSX platform and are willing to switch when limited harddrive space and performance makes porting Windows that much less appealing.


I love my Air, and I see two or three people a week (different people) using it in my local StarBucks. It's numbers are growing, especially now with the Graphics card inside of it. The Air's never going to be a mainstream product, but I bet they sell as many airs are they do MacPros and 17" MacBooks. (Just based on the amount of people I see with those products)


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## imobile (Oct 6, 2007)

*Food for thought!*



MacGuiver said:


> Good points MacDoc,
> 
> The article mentions HP doing well and I can see why. I recently saw a 17 inch HP core 2 duo notebook, 250 gig drive and 3 gigs of ram with Blueray for less than $900. If you can stomach vista or know not the greener pastures of OSX, HP is getting your business.
> I do like the new macbooks however. Cutting firewire isn't a deal breaker for the average Joe but the price is. They should have had the low end macbook sub $1000 in my opinion. In light of this story and the economy, that may happen soon.
> ...







Ummm Dell is el cheapo.
Dell is not doing well.
My $30 Dell shares in my ( as I sure others are too!) suffering RRSP ( was in 2005 a Standard and Poors FIVE STAR buy) are now a bit over $10.
Apple seems to be making more PROFIT on a phone than Dell is on a laptop!

Ever thought that all those ink cartridges for HP Printers might be subsidizing HP Computers in their quest to put Dell in the well?

The ink/toner business IS for HP (and Epson of course) a cash cow!

In 2005 ink and toner was only 25% of HP's revenue, but over 50% of profit!
Ever Wonder Why Ink Costs So Much?

November 2007 ~
"But HP’s most profitable business is printer ink. The company derived 42 percent of its $2.63 billion total operating profit in the latest quarter from its Imaging and Printing Group, nearly twice the amount contributed by the Personal Systems Group, which includes PCs."
Strong sales of laptops, ink lift H-P's profit - Earnings- msnbc.com


Just last week ...
HPQ HP posts $2.1 billion profit for fourth quarter
Hurd said he doesn't mind if new printer sales are slow, as long as customers aren't buying printers from competitors, because HP makes a greater profit from selling ink and supplies to customers who are still using its older printers.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MacDoc said:


> If you call issuing a glossy screen for pro work uncompromising quality you might want to rethink it.....call it uncompromising margin chase by Apple.
> Don't drink too much of Steve's Koolaid.


I never said uncompromising quality, I said uncompromising vision for the products and by this I was speaking of design so such things as the unibody design. 

If it was "uncompromising margin chase by Apple", there are less expensive options. 

Not drinking any Koolaid, just commenting on the article where it says "Steve’s history of putting form before function - or price...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MacGuiver said:


> I agree.
> Also, doesn't Apple use many of the same components inside that HP, Sony, Dell and other PC makers use? Hard drives, processors, lcds, memory, video cards? The majority of the guts of any mac is pretty much industry standard. I don't buy it that apple is that much better.
> Apple is certainly not uncompromising quality. The only problem I see with the Mac/Lexus comparison is that many mac products are Lexus on the outside and Chevy Cobalt on the inside.
> 
> ...


Again, never said anything about uncompromising quality I said uncompromising vision meaning design. 

To answer your point about the guts, of course they do, but some of the components inside are of outstanding quality. Ever looked inside a Mac Pro no, repeat no PC at even twice the price (and yes there are PCs that cost that much, Falcon Northwest for example) comes close in terms of form following function and internal fit and finish.

Obviously not all of their products achieve this standard, nor should they or only the very rarified few would be able to afford them. 

I won't argue the point about only a glossy screen for a MBP that is a mistake, but it isn't a point of design but a technical choice of a component.

Your analogy of *many* Mac products being a Lexus on the outside and a Chevy Cobalt on the inside is a real stretch. Examples please and do make them many.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

When Apple dropped Power PC and went to Intel, they moved to industry standard CPUs and supporting chipsets. The graphics chipsets are standard from ATI and NVIDIA barring any Mac specific ROM flashing. LCD panels have always been sourced from OEMs and the same with super drives, batteries etc. They're all commodity items in the electronics/computer manufacturing business. 

There's nothing abnormal or unique in there.

Back in the PowerPC and 680x0 days, the CPU and supporting chipsets inside Mac laptops weren't the commodity items that were industry standard from Intel. That significant differentiation between Mac and PC hardware was lost when PowerPC was abandoned and the change to Intel occurred. Other than the software, it's the pretty case that makes a Mac a Mac these days because the hardware's substantially the same as what you find in a comparably spec'ed PC laptop.

Just because Steve gets up on the stage a couple of times a year wearing a black turtleneck and blue jeans, and tells you how many songs and movies and TV shows and iPhones he's sold in the last three months doesn't build any mystique around the integrated circuits and surface mount parts, which are nothing special, that make a Mac from the hardware perspective or make it any more exclusive in the industry. And that's what makes it a Chevy dressed in a Lexus' clothing.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Like it or not, Stevey J better start inching towards Netbook territory. It doesn't have to be a race to the bottom... I know I would be willing to pay extra to buy a premium 8.9 to 10" Apple netbook that runs Mac OS X.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Amiga2000HD said:


> When Apple dropped Power PC and went to Intel, they moved to industry standard CPUs and supporting chipsets. The graphics chipsets are standard from ATI and NVIDIA barring any Mac specific ROM flashing. LCD panels have always been sourced from OEMs and the same with super drives, batteries etc. They're all commodity items in the electronics/computer manufacturing business.
> 
> There's nothing abnormal or unique in there.
> 
> ...


Not at all, for example as already cited, the build and fit and finish inside a Mac Pro blows away anything you'll find in PC. In case you haven't looked there is a helluva a lot more to a PC or Mac than a CPU or chipset. There is a lot inside the Mac Pro (again in terms of build quality) that you will not find elsewhere in the industry.

Not to mention the components inside a Mac even in the PowerPC days were still manufactured by many of the same manufacturers as they are now that the CPU is Intel. It just is a matter that they need not have a Mac specific version because the type of CPU (architecture) being used.

Additionally it is not the internal components of most PCs that account for them being Chevy Cobalts. It is there bodies and operating systems. In some very cheap PCs cheap components are used and it is specifically for this reason that Jobs and Co. say they will not build a sub $500 Mac because it cannot be done without unduly compromising QC.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Say all you will about Apple using the same parts as everyone else, but you said nothing of the build quality or design of the hardware. Those factors affect quality. You also neglected to note that Apple has the best quality control and lowest failure rate in the industry. How do you explain that?

You also didn't mention that the el cheapo PC laptops often use different processors, have less cache, and/or the batteries have half of the cells than a MacBook battery, etc. Not to mention the cheap plastic (much cheaper than the white MacBooks). To say the parts are all the same is simply false.

To borrow your analogy, Chevy parts are made from the same kind of metal as the Lexus parts, therefore, they're the same, right?

Also don't forget, Apple uses hardware profits to subsidize OS development too. Surely you don't think Apple fund MacOS X development and still sell purely on retail sales of the OS itself? Especially considering it is priced less than Windows.


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## morespace54 (Mar 4, 2005)

Actually, it's relatively easy to point out the flop of the Cube and the Swivel-iMac. 

Now, what about the PowerBook G3, the PowerPC G3, the PowerBook G4 and the PowerPC G4?

Geez, my Quicksilver 2002 still working fine on OS 10.5... 
I wish I could find a HP from 2002 that can run Vista...


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

DrewNL said:


> -I did indeed want something more sturdy as I was certainly noticing flex in my white MB


I did too, which is why I was surprised when I realized the top lid has just as much flex as the rest of them. The bottom may be sturdy (they always have been), but the top lid continues to have excessive flex IMO.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

dona83 said:


> Like it or not, Stevey J better start inching towards Netbook territory. It doesn't have to be a race to the bottom... I know I would be willing to pay extra to buy a premium 8.9 to 10" Apple netbook that runs Mac OS X.


See, but people are complaining about MacBooks being $1099 - when the "premium" netbooks (the Asus S101 and N10) are already at $800. And those are using the bottom of the barrel $~40 Atom processor. I agree that the demand is increasing in the netbook arena, but you know what? People are gonna bitch just as much about an $800 dual core Atom notebook that it's not powerful enough. People bitched about the Air's lack of power and the air will smoke a netbook any day.

There's also this from a real analyst doing actual (albiet somewhat dubiously statistical) counting of sales.



Piper Jaffray said:


> What is the current state of Apple's business?
> 
> *Following 25 hours of counting* iPhone and Mac sales in U.S. Apple retail stores across the country and recent NPD data on Macs and iPods, we believe the current quarter is tracking in-line with Street expectations. Driven by the Oct. launch of new MacBooks, *Macs (and notebooks in particular) are selling well despite the weakened consumer confidence.* We have analyzed NPD data for the 1st month of the Dec. quarter (Oct.) which is up 28% y/y; it leads us to a Mac number of between 2.5m-2.7m (we believe Street consensus is ~2.6m Macs in the quarter). *This range implies y/y Mac unit growth of 8%-16%* vs. the Street at 13% y/y growth.
> 
> ...


So a real analysis points to Mac sales growing year over year... not slowing, not stopping. And I'm assuming if MacBooks were the #1 selling Mac last year, they'll be that again. I'm not saying Apple's 100% right, but it's not like MacBook sales are suddenly plummeting since the Unibody Release.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

hayesk said:


> Say all you will about Apple using the same parts as everyone else, but you said nothing of the build quality or design of the hardware. Those factors affect quality. You also neglected to note that Apple has the best quality control and lowest failure rate in the industry. How do you explain that?
> 
> You also didn't mention that the el cheapo PC laptops often use different processors, have less cache, and/or the batteries have half of the cells than a MacBook battery, etc. Not to mention the cheap plastic (much cheaper than the white MacBooks). To say the parts are all the same is simply false.
> 
> ...



Hey haysek, if you follow the thread I was the one defending Apples QC and leading edge design, I don't know why you are directing your comments at me.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Amiga2000HD said:


> When Apple dropped Power PC and went to Intel, they moved to industry standard CPUs and supporting chipsets. The graphics chipsets are standard from ATI and NVIDIA barring any Mac specific ROM flashing. LCD panels have always been sourced from OEMs and the same with super drives, batteries etc. They're all commodity items in the electronics/computer manufacturing business.
> 
> There's nothing abnormal or unique in there.
> 
> ...


That was my point. Strip away the fancy shell and you've got the same guts. I agree 100% that apple does a stellar job on the packaging. I have a macpro and as screature pointed out, the internal layout is fantastic. 
However, if apple were to take the same guts and put it in a more humble box not unlike HPs or Dells with a decent look and offer it at half the price like they do I'd be quite happy to live without the fancy hard disk trays. If I could run OSX on a non apple box I'd have no problem buying a PC from someone else. I think most of the issues people have with many PC maker's is not so much hardware but the OS.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

The Air and new MacBook/MacBookPros aren't flops and the unibody is not a one model phenom. It's here to stay and we'll likely see some attempts at mimicry from Sony and others. Apple invested in the aluminum drilling plant and will be able to further differentiate their models in the future. Since the MBA has a unibody, its fair to say that the company worked out the bugs with that model and the subsequent mainstream MBs and MBPs are rock solid. The glossy screen "issue" is simple and cheap to rectify if Apple thinks they are truly losing sales (maybe it was a clever way to clear out the inventory of old MBPs?).

Seriously, while there's plenty of Cool-Aid drunk in the presence of Steve Jobs, no one can deny the evidence that Apple is doing rather well compared to its competitors. Apple appears willing to leave the low end to these guys. The company has never really gotten into budget machines. If you want a cheaper Mac, you basically have to buy a 2-3 year old model.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

fyrefly said:


> This still doesn't fly. You can get a cheaper windows notebook, yes. But not with the top of the line Intel core2duo processors, 1066Mhz RAM, Built in Draft-N wifi, Bluetooth, and all the stuff that Apple bakes in there.
> 
> I priced out a similar Dell XPSM1330 to a baseline MacBook (2.0Ghz) and I got $1309. FutureShop had the MacBooks on sale this weekend for $1299. Not so much difference.


Baseline: 1399 Macbook: 2.0GHz(1066mhz)/2GB DDR3 Memory/160GB hard drive/NVIDIA GeForce 9400M 

(Off Lenovo.ca's website)
Lenovo Thinkpad SL300 $1193: C2D 2.26GHz (1066mhz)/13.3" LED/Nvidia 9300m/Vista Business pretty much same specs for everything else. $200 less for a faster processor - I would think that's substantial. Wait until the CPU and Chipset is not the "newest" and the rebates start picking up in the retailers which Apple historically has never offered. 

Let's also compare the entry level White Macbook to something else from Dell that's considered middle of the pack:
$1149 C2D 2.1GHz (800mhz/3mb l2)/1GB DDR2/120GB HDD/GMA3100/DVDRW/iSIGHT/BT/WIFI N

$899.99 Dell: C2D 2.0GHz (800mhz/2mb l2)/3GB DDR2/320GB HDD/GMA3100/DVDRW/WEBCAM/WIFI N/no BT but I'd rather have the included Express Card Slot. 
Computers: Laptops: Dell 13.3" Laptop featuring Intel Core 2 Duo Processor T5800 (1318-614E) | Best Buy Canada Web Store 

To someone shopping for an entry level machine, huge difference in price and value. 

The almost identical $1299 HP Pavilion at BestBuy is not on sale. That's regular MSRP. Waith a month and you'll see where the pricing is. 

---------------------------------------
Baseline Macbook Pro 15.4" $2149: T9400 2.4Ghz (1066MHz) 3MB L2/2GB DDR3/250GB HDD/9600mGT

Thinkpad T500 15.4" $1669: T9400 2.53GHz, (1066MHz) 6MB L2/2GB DDR3/LED Display/ Radeon 3650 256mb / Vista Business / every other feature the same. Again $500 is a huge difference. As a matter of fact, it's cheaper then the lesser spec'd top of the line Macbook. And sorry, an extra FW port does not make up the difference. Neither does the GPU as the Radeon is plenty for Pro work. 

I wouldn't be part of this community or a Mac user if I didn't appreciate the OS and the design but that same thinking does not account for the majority of the consumer population.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Now for the big question - are you prepared for a 10% + price increase in January ??  

Apple is modelled on a 7.5% of so differential and we are sitting on a 20% differential and Canadian prices are typically 2-5% above straight exchange so in theory Apple could adjust as much as 20%.

What does value for money look like then.

Many were whining when the Canadian dollar was high.....you got the stomach or budget for the inverse???


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

MacDoc said:


> Now for the big question - are you prepared for a 10% + price increase in January ??
> 
> Apple is modelled on a 7.5% of so differential and we are sitting on a 20% differential and Canadian prices are typically 2-5% above straight exchange so in theory Apple could adjust as much as 20%.
> 
> ...


So soon? I thought it didn't work that way.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

If you want to shop based purely on price, you're always going to get a Windows machine. Dell, HP, eMachines, Acer all compete in that sphere. Apple doesn't. The article listed in the OP says that Apple is going to do that to it's detriment. Piper Jaffray and other firms don't agree. 

If you agree, that's your opinion. Apple's cost more. I spec'd out a Dell quickly that matched a MacBook price. If I wanted to shop around, I could find discounts (refurbs, Black Friday, FS sales, etc...) Hell, if I really wanted, I could buy a 2.4Ghz MacBook Aluminum from a guy who I meet at the subway for $1400 cash. That's cheaper than the Lenovo after taxes. 

There's not enough $299 Dells in the world to make me want to go back to using Windows. Do I pay a premium to play with my MacBook Air every day? Yes. Do I mind? Not terribly. Would I be happy if the MacBook dropped to $899? Sure. Does the fact that I can't get a MacBook for $899 make me purchase a Dell/Lenovo/HP/Acer? Not a chance.

Listen, we can complain about Apple computers being expensive till we're blue in the face, it's not going to make Apple change the prices unless their sales model doesn't work. We'll find out in early 09 if Piper Jaffray or ZDNet is right.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

"Price" is a relative term. What does down time cost you when your machine isn't working or the entire system is down? There is more than one kind of "cost" associated with a decent computer.


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## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

There is definately a view that Mac laptops are more expensive, and this is true, to a certain degree. When my girlfriend purchased her laptop, It was actually slightly sheaper for her to get the mac vs a similar spec'd laptop. The macbook is more expensive by a couple hundred dollars than the windows machines, so then you are paying to use a mac and are willing to a pay a premium for it, but also consider if you do not need a MBP the MB is cheaper, even though less value compared to windows machine.

She chose to get the glossy screen, just because she finds it easier to work on, when working with autocad photoshop and VIZ. Yes, the matte display is better for certain things, but that is also more of a personal preference.

I do not think that new laptops are necessarily a flop, maybe its a transition period. I know I would have bought one if they came out in july.

As for the comment about no one thinking laptops are flimsy. I picked up my laptop and thought that exactly. It flexed a bit, and I wished it was a little less flimsy, but it is the same as a PC equivalent.

I bought my mac for the overall package of hardware and software and its integration. I do think that the products are better, and generally benchmarks support it, even though I know many of the components are the same as any other, but I think that apple will design a better computer especiall comapred to a HP, and now Dells(use to be quite good).


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Also, when you get a Mac, you essentially get two computers for the price of one, since they can run Windoze and OSX. Can Windows machines make the same claim?


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

I'm not thrilled with the new line of Macbooks but words like flop and fiasco are making me laugh. How many products does Apple have out right now? How many of them are junk? Right. So the only computer they've replaced is the 15" macbook pro. I'm sure apple knew they were making a change for the long haul otherwise they instantly would have gotten rid of the white macbooks and revamped the 17"mbps at the sametime (think 'new coke'). I'd be hard pressed to think of a time when Apple failed to predict the extinction of a protocol so if 6 pin FireWire is on it's way out, so be it. I'm sure the MacBook designs are here to stay, likely only the guts (and hopefully the screens) will change.


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## AC_99 (Sep 29, 2005)

I first picked up a Classic II when I was a kid. Now I am a 25 year old web designer. I can honestly say that I have never owned a PC and been 100% behind Apple. 

I ordered a new high end MBP when they were first released. I like the machine, but can't get over this glossy screen. Why would they get ride of the vivid LED Matte screen. Its a mistake on Apple's part, I am just waiting for them to make it right!!!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I was also put off by the new glossies in the MBP. While I usually spend some time looking at the new merchandise, I stopped dead when I realized matte screens were not an option.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

fyrefly said:


> If you want to shop based purely on price, you're always going to get a Windows machine. Dell, HP, eMachines, Acer all compete in that sphere. Apple doesn't. The article listed in the OP says that Apple is going to do that to it's detriment. Piper Jaffray and other firms don't agree.
> 
> If you agree, that's your opinion. Apple's cost more. I spec'd out a Dell quickly that matched a MacBook price. If I wanted to shop around, I could find discounts (refurbs, Black Friday, FS sales, etc...) Hell, if I really wanted, I could buy a 2.4Ghz MacBook Aluminum from a guy who I meet at the subway for $1400 cash. That's cheaper than the Lenovo after taxes.
> 
> ...


Lenovo website is the first place I went as the Thinkpad has historically been considered the best notebook on the Windows side. Didn't take much to find much better pricing. I'm not questioning your reasons for buying Mac as it's similar to mine... but it's a suggestion to the OP's original production cost posting and your immediate rebuttal to my statement.

I don't think the point of this thread is to attack Apple's historically premium price and whether it's justified. We all know it is and price is a relative term when you consider downtime, antivirus software etc.. but to the average consumer, in today's uncertainty, Apple cannot sustain the same growth no matter how innovative they are. They are no immune. Hence, the production cuts. And I am more referring to the Macbook line instead of the Macbook Pro's.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

fjnmusic said:


> Also, when you get a Mac, you essentially get two computers for the price of one, since they can run Windoze and OSX. Can Windows machines make the same claim?


Well they could if Apple would allow it. Any similiar hardware will run it, just look at all the netbooks that are being hacked (and by hacked I mean that appropriate drivers are installed) to run OS X. With the proper hardware in place (which isn't uncommon) it's a legal issue not a technical issue.


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## Admant (Jun 9, 2003)

These are tough economic times, and all companies with a narrow niche market like apple has with it's computers will have a tough time. I think the new mac book is a step in the right direction, now is not the time to bring out cheap products or try to go main stream. Budget minded people will by $600 HP's and it is suicide for apple to try and compete with that.

If you want a Ford, buy one. If you buy a BMW, you will never look at a Ford.

It's apples and oranges. And I can say after picking up a new MacBook Pro today, I think it is the best notebook Apple has built.

2 cents


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> The news that Apple has cut Macbook production by 20-30% may not be surprising given the world economy. But when HP reports that their Q3 notebook revenue grew 26% and Mac resellers are offering rebates on the new ‘books things have gone very wrong in Cupertino.


The opening paragraph is simply sad journalism.

The 'news' is of a production cut is speculation. Now, it does make sense that they cut back given the economy, but that cut back would be from a very high base.

The HP numbers are off a low base, and reflect some solid success in taking corporate business from Dell. Apple is not known to have a particularly aggressive interest in corporate sales...

Also, one set of numbers refers to a cut in production, the other a growth in revenue. Nice comparison!

My reading points to continued growth in Apple's share of the notebook market. The MacBook reviews have been largely positive. 

Just today, a respected analyst released an interesting report. Some relevant excerpts:

Following 25 hours of counting iPhone and Mac sales in U.S. Apple retail stores across the country and recent NPD data on Macs and iPods, we believe the current quarter is tracking in-line with Street expectations. Driven by the Oct. launch of new MacBooks, Macs (and notebooks in particular) are selling well despite the weakened consumer confidence. We have analyzed NPD data for the 1st month of the Dec. quarter (Oct.) which is up 28% y/y; it leads us to a Mac number of between 2.5m-2.7m (we believe Street consensus is ~2.6m Macs in the quarter). This range implies y/y Mac unit growth of 8%-16% vs. the Street at 13% y/y growth.

How are the new aluminum (and older plastic) MacBooks selling?
Following 25 hours of counting Mac sales in U.S. Apple retail stores across the country and recent NPD data on Macs, we believe the new aluminum MacBooks ($1,299) are selling well. While we do not believe sales are exceeding Apple's own internal estimates, as the stores have had ample supply throughout the launch, we now believe the Mac unit number for the Dec. quarter may exceed our and Street expectations of 2.6m. We note that the new product will likely lift Mac ASP's; during our in-store checks we found that the new aluminum models (priced $200 higher at the entry point than the previous white plastic MacBook model) are vastly more popular than the newly priced white plastic model ($999). We caution that our in-store checks do not reflect the direct sales to the Education market where the $999 model is likely finding more success, but we believe the net effect of the new aluminum MacBooks will be a lift in Mac ASP's. We are modeling for Mac ASP's to rise sequentially from $1,386 in the Sept. quarter (in which lower-priced Education sales prevail) to $1,552 in the Dec. quarter (in which the higher-priced aluminum MacBook is now available).


Now, we all have our personal views and prejudices about the specs and prices. I would have preferred a choice of screen on the MBP. I miss FW on the MB. On the other hand, I feel the MB is an awesome combination of size and power, and of course it has OS X. Today I was talking to our video and photo teams about their MBP, compared to the previous model. They love the speed and build, and the screen is not an issue, because the serious work is done on an external monitor.

In the end, the numbers will do the talking, so let's see how it turns out in the next few months.

P.S. The analyst report:
AppleInsider | Piper Jaffray addresses 12 more 'unanswered Apple questions'


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

> You know times are tight when even Steve Jobs starts cutting prices.
> 
> Apple (AAPL), which keeps the tightest reins on list prices in the business, seems to have loosened them significantly this holiday season. Authorized resellers who normally wouldn’t dare chop a nickel off Apple’s suggested retail are cutting prices, offering rebates and plastering the Web with gaudy ads.
> 
> ...


Apple sale! All Macs must go! - Apple 2.0


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

There is this factor as well



> Apple's new MacBooks have built-in copy protection measures
> Apple's new MacBook lines include a form of digital copy protection that will prevent protected media, such as DRM-infused iTunes movies, from playing back on devices that aren't compliant with the new priority protection measures.
> 
> The Intel-developed technology is called High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) and aims to prevent copying of digital audio and video content as it travels across a variety of display connectors, even if such copying is not in violation of fair use laws.
> ...


Apple's new MacBooks have built-in copy protection measures - AppleInsider


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

But if you want Blu-Ray on the Mac, you have to accept HDCP compliant hardware. Apple is actually preparing their Macs for Blu-Ray which everyone seems to be demanding. 

People seem to want everything, but don't understand the implications of what they want.

Unfortunately, until today, Apple went over the top with their HDCP compliance, but has since corrected it.
AppleInsider | QuickTime 7.5.7 allows SD iTunes playback over DisplayPort


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The headache is that it's just one more hassle, one more thing to pay for ( no adapter with the MBP ) and one more thing to lug around and you are FUBAR if you lose it. )

People read about the headaches, see the price increase for no extra performance and fewer ports ( oh I have to buy an adapter for my FW 400 drive  ) and a glossy screen - not a winning combo.

MacBook Alum has some benefit - the 2.0 is reasonable price and good gaming performance and non- Pro use the screen is okay.

But I think Apple tanked on the Pro book.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> one more thing to pay for ( no adapter with the MBP ) and one more thing to lug around and you are FUBAR if you lose it. )


True, but apparently this is the newer tech. Intel is going to bring it out too at some point. Apple again seems to be leading the technology - that's ironic since I keep on hearing geeks question where has Apple been delivering something leading tech and why hasn't Apple delivered Blu-Ray when everyone else has. There is going to always be a transition for new tech. Remember dual-link DVI and PC users wanting to use Cinema Displays? Remember the fiasco of ADC and the move back to an open standard of dual-link DVI and DVI? Remember the transition from PCI to PCI-X to PCI-e? Remember the removal of Floppy Drives? Remember the transition of ADB to USB? Same thing here DisplayPort is a new standard replacing dual-link DVI. DisplayPort has the ability to scale up to handle future display resolutions too.

Of course being a leading tech company has it's disadvantages, your always in transition. All the above transitions and then all the other transitions - 680x0 to PowerPC transition, OS 9 to OS X transition, PowerPC to Intel transition, etc.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sorry but too much at once a lot for not much good reason....into a tailspin economy.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yowser 










the orphan 24.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

My 24" mirror arrives tomorrow. Great complement to the MBP  I was going to buy a second MagSafe AC adaptor but then saw the 24" edu price ($899) and pulled the trigger on the 24" for my office (biggest computer screen I've ever bought).

I know its a personal preference but I think black displayed on glossy screens blows away matt screens which look muddy in comparison. Swapped our Aquos for a Samsung Series 7 (matt to gloss) and it felt like going from 40% vision to 20:20.

But, MacDoc, you are a seller - are your MBP sales in the tank?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

12:1 matte to glossy.

I have both on my desk and right now either are fine and the blacks are bit better on the matte tho it's a very high end screen compared to a relatively high end glossy.

When it's daylight tho - the glossy sucks., sometimes to the point where I turn it off.

There is a reason high end LCDs are matte.

comment



> I wonder if any photographers out there have tried to colour calibrate one of the new 24" iMacs?
> 
> 
> We've tried both a Pantone Huey and a Spyder on the new iMac. Because of massive glare, screen calibration is a real challenge. We weren't able to get any useful results out of the Huey. The Spyder yielded ok results but only when we used it in a completely dark room. Even the slightest reflection will cause color cast.
> ...


24" iMac Display Panel - Calibration? [Archive] - Mac Forums


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I hope Apple comes to their senses with the matte option on a new MBP before it is time for me to upgrade again.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

They won't but we have a reasonably effective matte film that works pretty well. About $30. but 3M has a higher end solution












> 3M™ Anti-Reflective Matte Removable Protection Film (ARMR200) 15.0" diagonal, Kit
> Fits 12.01" x 8.98" screens with a 15.0" diagonal
> 
> Features and Benefits:
> ...


$20 a sheet - the one we used took a few minutes to get the bubbles out

The one we used made a big difference - part of the screen that was unreadable instantly became readable with the anti-glare film on.
The glare was still there but muted.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

> Apple was on such a roll.
> 
> Then the Air face planted.


Several problems with this:

1. It's ZDNet, aka the National Enquirer of tech reporting. IOW, it's completely made up.

2. The MacBook Air has actually sold very well (its figures would surprise most non-geeks). Sure it's the least popular of the three families, but in a field of three SOMETHING has to be 3rd place, and the sales are healthy. Last I saw, it was 20% of Apple's laptop sales. You can sniff that it's a rich person's computer if you want -- rich people are still buying computers, however.

3. The market spoke on the glossy-v-flat issue years ago -- they like glossy. Consumers like the deeper colours, pros control their lighting so its a complete non-issue. This "war" was over a long time ago.

4. I guess we'll see when Snow Leopard comes out (since the recession will not be over by then) whether Apple will coast through this downturn -- my guess is "easily." Will the bottom line suffer a little? Sure, but will Apple see any real pain? I very much doubt it.


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## psxp (May 23, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Yowser
> 
> 
> 
> ...


plug it in.. should reflect as much


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

psxp said:


> plug it in.. should reflect as much


I generally don't look at my screens at that angle. Looking straight on, it's not as bad.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

It is essentially a mirror when off (out of the box), but it looks great when turned on. Not that I'd want to have the sun behind me, of course. It's less of an issue than the laptop screens since you tend to use those all over the place where lighting is more variable. I am not going to lug the 24" screen around and more than I'd lug an iMac.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah the advantage if you can call it that is you can alter to your room to suit Apple's taste


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

a bit more first gen "fun" - 

AppleInsider | Apple investigating graphics issues on new MacBook lines


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

FWIW, I'm not seeing any big issues with my MBP. I don't run games though and tend to run on the slower graphics card as its gives better battery life - indeed, battery consumption is not great. In sleep mode, I lose 20-25%overnight. One other issue I have had is that when installing a system update, quite often the spinning grey circle thang hangs and I need to hard reboot. This has happened on three software updates (latest was QT 7.5.7).

I have had two Airport Expresses go belly-up in three weeks.....


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

used to be jwoodget said:


> battery consumption is not great. In sleep mode, I lose 20-25%overnight.


The battery thing is related to the software on the new MB/P's... At least as far as I can tell. I installed The special build of 10.5.5 on my 1st Gen MBA to get the 4-finger-swipe on my machine and now it loses more battery power in sleep as well. I bet it'll all get fixed in 10.5.6.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

Clockwork said:


> I think Apple needs to make a cheap Macbook. Many people get caught up in the costs of Macs.
> 
> My brother won't even touch a Mac because of the cost. For $600 he can get a decent notebook, and the only downfall is Vista ( Vista is a huge down fall, but when you have never used OSX, you have no idea what you are missing).


As a relatively new convert, I have had my koolaid, and I really believe that Macs are better value in a whole bunch of ways.

BUT-I know people who are considering notebooks for Christmas or students starting school in January, and it is very very difficult to justify the extra cost. Yes I know we need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples, yada yada, but the Macbooks are WAY more expensive...and people don't look at the 3 or 5 year investment, they look at sticker today.

Will Apple's much vaunted brand loyalty hold? We'll see......


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## kb244 (Apr 23, 2002)

mc3251 said:


> As a relatively new convert, I have had my koolaid, and I really believe that Macs are better value in a whole bunch of ways.
> 
> BUT-I know people who are considering notebooks for Christmas or students starting school in January, and it is very very difficult to justify the extra cost. Yes I know we need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples, yada yada, but the Macbooks are WAY more expensive...and people don't look at the 3 or 5 year investment, they look at sticker today.
> 
> Will Apple's much vaunted brand loyalty hold? We'll see......


Well most those folks generally hock their student loans at things like that and use a part time job to pay off the loan again lol. 

The thing that has me kind of in a pickle is that the new macbooks despite the graphic improvement still doesn't seem like a large improvement over the previous model. If I were not concerned too much with the aestetic differences and were purchasing new, I'd opt to get the white macbook new at 999$ and gain an extra firewire port and save a couple hundred dollars. 

I know there's a couple extra features, but in general don't like how they remove something without least replacing it with something else (ie: removed firewire... didn't at least use that spot for a 3rd USB port to make up for the loss of a connection). Not to mention if I upgraded from this one, the display cables I already spent 60$+ on, won't work on the new one.

My feeling is that most of the new switchers may adore the new macbooks, but the rest of us looking to upgrade from our older macbooks may be eyeing the newer macbook pros instead.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

kb244 said:


> The thing that has me kind of in a pickle is that the new macbooks despite the graphic improvement still doesn't seem like a large improvement over the previous model. If I were not concerned too much with the aestetic differences and were purchasing new, I'd opt to get the white macbook new at 999$ and gain an extra firewire port and save a couple hundred dollars.


That's exactly what the market researchers have observed. Retail customers have been snapping up the Aluminum models in droves (5-1 or 10-1 vs. the White models) but EDU Customers make up the bulk of the White MacBook customers. 

The number of students I see with White MacBooks... wheee! 

If I was advising a student - the White Model has great value: the RAM is cheaper and it no longer has the dreaded combo drive


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

here comes the wave.....

email from my chair supplier



> Due to the recent devaluation of the Canadian Dollar against the U.S. dollar, Herman Miller will be re-rating their exchange rate at which they sell to us on Monday Dec 1st, 2008.
> 
> Our current pricing is based on an exchange of 1 to 1 (par) leftover from several months ago. On Monday, if Herman Miller changes their rate to match the current xe.com exchange, we will be buying at approximately 1.23, which would therefore *increase pricing by as much as 23%*


gonna buy something???...get your butt in gear.


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## kb244 (Apr 23, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> here comes the wave.....
> 
> email from my chair supplier
> 
> ...


Speaking of Herman Miller, used to be quite a few factory workers here in my city working for them til they were laid off several years back, the same with steelcase and a number of others. Some nice stuff though.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

kb244 said:


> My feeling is that most of the new switchers may adore the new macbooks, but the rest of us looking to upgrade from our older macbooks may be eyeing the newer macbook pros instead.


Um ... that's exactly the idea, Karl ...


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Some more info on this topic... 

Analyst Roundup: Black Friday pretty good for Apple - The Unofficial Apple Weblog (TUAW)



tuaw.com said:


> Apple met or beat analyst expectations for sales over the weekend, selling 13 Macs and 3.4 iPhones every hour, according to one Piper Jaffray estimate.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I don't love the new MB/MBPs that much - but maybe Apple didn't blow it.


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