# Migrate from 10.5 to 10.10



## rgray

I have a friend with an iMac running 10.5.8.

We want to take it to 10.10.4.

He has a good TimeMachine backup.

I have a Yosemite USB installer.

The iMac could do with a good nuke-n-pave.

If I erase the iMac, and then install Yosemite. can I expect to restore properly from the 10.5.8 TimeMachine? 

Remember that I'll be trying to reel back from a TimeMachine created under 10.5.8 all the way to 10.10.4 all in one fell swoop??? 

Will the iPhoto, iTunes libraries import correctly?? Email??? Etc, etc....???

Or am I going to have to include a step to 10.6?? 0r other steps??

Comments please.


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## WCraig

I just upgraded from 10.6.8 to 10.10 (finally). I made two complete backups (Carbon Copy Cloner) and used a blank external partition to rebuild my system. When happy, I cloned it back to my boot drive.

For me, email was the most work. I've been running Eudora for many years; I have about 45k messages going back 15 years and I wanted to bring it all forward. I used Eudora Mailbox Cleaner* to convert from Eudora to Apple Mail on 10.6.8 which worked very well. However, I tested installing 10.10.4, Apple Mail was unsuccessful trying to upgrade the database format between the two versions of Mail. To get around that, I first installed 10.8, opened Mail successfully, then upgraded to 10.10. The intermediate step fixed whatever problem Mail was having.

BTW, I used Migration Assistant to transfer user accounts and data from the old system partition to the new. It is pretty darn slow--~250 GB of data took nearly 3 hours to transfer via USB2. I did this multiple times while testing. Even just installing OS X on a blank disk takes about 40 minutes. 

Craig
*PPC app so it won't run on 10.7 or later.


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## eMacMan

I would definitely create and test a clone via Carbon Copy Cloner. 

Are there any machines that shipped with Leopard that can go all the way to Yosemite?? Sufficient RAM. Leopard ran fairly decently on 2GB. Judging by how the new macs ship, 8GB is minimum for Yosemite and 16GB would probably run smoother.


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## monokitty

rgray said:


> I have a friend with an iMac running 10.5.8.
> 
> We want to take it to 10.10.4.
> 
> He has a good TimeMachine backup.
> 
> I have a Yosemite USB installer.
> 
> The iMac could do with a good nuke-n-pave.
> 
> If I erase the iMac, and then install Yosemite. can I expect to restore properly from the 10.5.8 TimeMachine?
> 
> Remember that I'll be trying to reel back from a TimeMachine created under 10.5.8 all the way to 10.10.4 all in one fell swoop???
> 
> Will the iPhoto, iTunes libraries import correctly?? Email??? Etc, etc....???
> 
> Or am I going to have to include a step to 10.6?? 0r other steps??
> 
> Comments please.


It will work fine, at least moving the Apple stuff will; Apple Mail, iCal, etc.

When it's all done, Photos that replaces iPhoto in 10.10.4 will convert and import the iPhoto library.


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## pm-r

Considering that the 10.5.8 is almost eight years old, rather than doing a nuke-n-pave, why not just install a new drive and format it and stick the old drive into an enclosure as a backup at least?

EDIT: I guess I'm also wondering why the sudden urge or need to do such a drastic OS X upgrade???


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## eMacMan

pm-r said:


> Considering that the 10.5.8 is almost eight years old, rather than doing a nuke-n-pave, why not just install a new drive and format it and stick the old drive into an enclosure as a backup at least?
> 
> EDIT: I guess I'm also wondering why the sudden urge or need to do such a drastic OS X upgrade???


HD swaps on Macintel iMacs have never been a cakewalk. If it was a MacPro that would absolutely be the way to go.

I would buy a new external that would work with that iMac. FireWire 2 would be ideal. Clone to that new HD and test drive the clone. Then do your nuke and pave. Do not write over that clone until you are absolutely positive that the new OS install is working and that all key applications have survived the upgrade!


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## monokitty

pm-r said:


> EDIT: I guess I'm also wondering why the sudden urge or need to do such a drastic OS X upgrade???


Because 10.5.8 is ancient, it sucks and it doesn't support jack any more. I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did, honestly.

They probably want to run applications that don't support 10.5, which is probably ever app imaginable at this point.


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## rgray

monokitty said:


> Because 10.5.8 is ancient, it sucks and it doesn't support jack any more. I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did, honestly.
> 
> They probably want to run applications that don't support 10.5, which is probably ever app imaginable at this point.


The owner is outside the Mac community, so to speak, so when update notices stopped arriving for 10.5.8 they never realised the world was moving on. And the was no Mac App Store at the time (until 10.6) to promote to them the latest and greatest otherwise I am sure this owner would surely have moved on. I have only recently made their acquaintance and taken their Mac under my wing,. as it were.

Primary reasons for wanting to upgrade are much as *monokitty* suggests for application support.

Mainly, iTunes will not upgrade further and the version on the machine cannot 'see' the new iPad they bought.

Safari can upgrade no further and so bypasses modern security features.

The question is "can a Yosemite install properly read 10.5.8 created TimeMachine" and I cannot find much definitive info at Apple of elsewhere.

The Machine meets the requirements for Yosemite and has all the speed the users need for what they are doing.

Basically we want the features of the newer operating system and the software improvements it makes possible.


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## CubaMark

rgray said:


> The question is "can a Yosemite install properly read 10.5.8 created TimeMachine" and I cannot find much definitive info at Apple of elsewhere.


I wouldn't even bother with Time Machine. *Carbon Copy Cloner will not run on 10.5*, nor does Bombich - the developer - offer older versions for legacy download.

But *SuperDuper! *will work fine - here's the download link to version 2.7.1.

With that, you can clone the drive easily to an external.

And while that iMac may be able to run Yosemite, will it run it well? I daresay a RAM upgrade wouldn't be a bad idea, unless it's already been added.


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## rgray

eMacMan said:


> I would definitely create and test a clone via Carbon Copy Cloner.


Won't work - see next.


CubaMark said:


> I wouldn't even bother with Time Machine. *Carbon Copy Cloner will not run on 10.5*, nor does Bombich - the developer - offer older versions for legacy download.
> 
> But *SuperDuper! *will work fine - here's the download link to version 2.7.1.


I'm not sure what cloning gets me in this project??? There is no way we going to continue with 10.5.8...

I have the TimeMacine backup in hand and will have a fresh copy of the user folder before I start. So what *more* does cloning give me?

I am aware that there may be issues with 3rd party applications.

It is fairly clear that Yosemite can read 10.6.* TimeMachine archives. I am seeking confirmation that it will work from 10.5.*, Worst come to worst I have a DVD installer for 10.6 if need be. I think the machine could use a nuke-n-pave job in which case it would be easier to do that and save a step with the Yosemite installer stick....... if it would then be able to read the extant TimeMachine.


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## hexdiy

I know you do not very well agree with pm-r, rgray. His aversion to nuke-n-pave and all that. But I do agree with him on this, right now, in this case: take out the ancient HDD, and put it in an external enclosure.
Put in a new HDD or even SSD, and give it a brand new install of 10.10.4 or whatever OSX version you want. Heck, upgrade the ram in that Mac also.
As you rightly know, you can start migrating manually or via Migration Assistant, and stick to a dual boot system with the ancient Leopard disk as an external.
Software wise, I bet there wil be some stuff requiring Rosetta still, so it would be unwise to altogether lose Leopard or Snow Leopard fallback. On top of that, and as has been remarked before, the original HDD has well overshed its MTBF hours. A new drive is in order in any case.
Well, just my 2 €cents. I'm from Barcelona, I know nothing. Wink.


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## pm-r

rgray said:


> …
> … ….
> I have the TimeMacine backup in hand and will have a fresh copy of the user folder before I start. So what *more* does cloning give me?
> 
> I am aware that there may be issues with 3rd party applications.
> 
> It is fairly clear that Yosemite can read 10.6.* TimeMachine archives. I am seeking confirmation that it will work from 10.5.*, Worst come to worst I have a DVD installer for 10.6 if need be. I think the machine could use a nuke-n-pave job in which case it would be easier to do that and save a step with the Yosemite installer stick....... if it would then be able to read the extant TimeMachine.



I don't think Apple has mucked about with changing how TM works very much so it should all work with any Migration, after all, they'd look pretty stupid if their own TM Backup didn't even work.


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## pm-r

hexdiy said:


> I know you do not very well agree with pm-r, rgray. His aversion to nuke-n-pave and all that. But I do agree with him on this, right now, in this case: take out the ancient HDD, and put it in an external enclosure.
> Put in a new HDD or even SSD, and give it a brand new install of 10.10.4 or whatever OSX version you want. Heck, upgrade the ram in that Mac also.
> As you rightly know, you can start migrating manually or via Migration Assistant, and stick to a dual boot system with the ancient Leopard disk as an external.
> Software wise, I bet there wil be some stuff requiring Rosetta still, so it would be unwise to altogether lose Leopard or Snow Leopard fallback. On top of that, and as has been remarked before, the original HDD has well overshed its MTBF hours. A new drive is in order in any case.
> Well, just my 2 €cents. I'm from Barcelona, I know nothing. Wink.



Just for the record, I don't have an aversion to using any nuke-n-pave, and my eldest Apple Authorized technician was probably one of the first to even use it and the expression many years ago.

It's just that so much has changed with the later OS X versions that there doesn't always seem to be as much reason to use it, especially when it would be for the same user.

And assuming that things were working properly and no huge hassles.


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## hexdiy

There has been a major change, though: Time Machine used to work with Server Message Block ( aka Microsoft Samba), but has changed over to using Apple Filing Protocol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Machine_(OS_X)
When exactly that change happened I'm not able to find on short notice. Hence the caution not to erase the original startup disk. TM backup for it may be difficult to read/recover if under a different protocol. Although the Samba part may only apply to elderly Time Capsules. Looks like typical network storage stuff. Not sure right now.
And, pm-r: Apple has been known to look pretty stupid. Specially latterly. Shame on them.


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## hexdiy

And, darn, Yosemite has changed over to SMB for file sharing yet again! E.g.: Sharing Files, Devices, and Services on Your iMac (Yosemite Edition) | File Sharing on Your Mac | Que
That is why rgrays inter operating system question is not obvious here. What has Time Machine done in the meantime? And when?


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## pm-r

hexdiy said:


> There has been a major change, though: Time Machine used to work with Server Message Block ( aka Microsoft Samba), but has changed over to using Apple Filing Protocol.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Machine_(OS_X)
> When exactly that change happened I'm not able to find on short notice. Hence the caution not to erase the original startup disk. TM backup for it may be difficult to read/recover if under a different protocol. Although the Samba part may only apply to elderly Time Capsules. Looks like typical network storage stuff. Not sure right now.
> And, pm-r: Apple has been known to look pretty stupid. Specially latterly. Shame on them.



Thanks for the info, and correction *hexdiy*, and I was trying to be nice about Apple, and how they might handle TM and its backups.

And then again, there's the issue of the backup and Migration Assistant if its also going to be involved.

I'd sure want to keep a virgin backup somewhere, but then again, I've always relied on and used and suggested CCC.


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## hexdiy

CCC is by no means a foolish option! Time Machine is only easy, incremental backup. CCC or SuperDuper copies are fully fledged (bootable if you want them to, CCC the only one to backup a Recovery partition) Archive Copies!
Only thing is, rgrays client does not have one! That's why I'm trying to analyse that TM...


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## rgray

pm-r said:


> Just for the record, I don't have an aversion to using any nuke-n-pave, and my eldest Apple Authorized technician was probably one of the first to even use it and the expression many years ago.


FWIW, and for the record, I first heard the term "nuke 'n' pave" from a Unix technician in 1983 shortly after I bought my first real harddrive (a 20mb [yes megabytes] Seagate if memory serves) So it has been around at least since then, meaning essentially what we (i!) mean by it today (erase and re format at "low-level").....


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## rgray

pm-r said:


> .............. they'd look pretty stupid if their own TM Backup didn't even work.


I'm not quite confident enough in *that* to bet the farm on it just yet without either more info or an 'exit strategy'...... Apple has abandoned stuff before now.... 68000 chip series, PPC chip series, Mac-OS, Classic, Rosetta, floppy disks, optical drives, and now even hard drives!!!, iPhoto, Aperature...... not a short list when you come to think of it.....


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## CubaMark

hexdiy said:


> Put in a new HDD or even SSD, and give it a brand new install of 10.10.4 or whatever OSX version you want. Heck, upgrade the ram in that Mac also.


The OP didn't identify the specific model of iMac, but the first iMac to ship with 10.5 was the *Apple iMac "Core 2 Duo" 2.4 20-Inch (Early 2008)*. 

iFixit has excellent repair guides for all models of iMac to help swap the internal HD with something more modern. I would absolutely go the SSD route to give that puppy a performance boost with Yosemite. I've seen people bitching all over the place about how the OS X 10.10 upgrade pooched their systems, and inevitably it's folks with standard HDs. I can only say that my SSD-equipped MBP just sings with Yosemite installed (and 8 gigs of RAM).

Plus - A seven-year-old hard drive: how much more of a reliable lifespan does it have?

As for a *SuperDuper!* clone - My personal Rule #1: always ensure you have one complete, original copy of the user's system and data before doing anything, just in case. You can't rely on just copying off the */Users/username/* folder, as I've encountered too many folks who intentionally or not have saved data to the root level of the drive, or in */Applications/* etc. You never know....


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