# Vancouver Airport Taser Death - Anyone see it? Comments please



## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

*.*

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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

What is there to say other than it's sad it came to such a conclusion... it's an incomplete video--clearly something was wrong long before the police arrived.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm embarrassed to be a Canadian at the moment.

The CBC has done a good job at exposing the facts.

The RCMP has lied about the timeline, their actions and should be ashamed.
I can't believe that some would even try to defend them. I hope that all four officers are charged with a criminal offence. 

How some are trying to rationalize this incident is disgusting (I'm *not* aiming this at you Manny).


"When he lost conciousness they DIDN'T try to revive him."
Manslaughter.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

It doesn't look good.

I wouldn't be so quick to point fingers until all the facts come out. Who knows what kind of training those officers received. Their intent and motives may have been benign. When I see something like this, the first thing that comes to mind is the training. 

It seems like there have been a lot of taser incidents where people have died. We are learning that they are more dangerous than was initially thought. I guarantee you that these officers heard the phrases 'Non-lethal force' and 'taser' together more than a few times. The wording should change to something like 'possibly lethal force'.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

My verdict... police were way out of line in this incident.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

Tragedy du Jour.
Do you ever struggle with what to feel shocked about these days? Today it's this, tomorrow it's something else. 
Choose the most reported, or feel frustrated about the one that should be the most reported.
Strange times.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

It is a Tragedy du Jour because the RCMP seems to move from one mess to a next almost on a daily basis. Their track record has been awful lately with everything ranging from totally inadequate officer safety protocol resulting in fatalities that might have been avoidable to a laundry list of things that are just total screwups. It's an embarrasment. With an officer to suspect ratio of 4:1 they still felt it necessary to fry someone to death rather than just jump on the guy, take him down and cuff him. That's disgustingly inelegant, low quality, incompetent police work and I seriously hope that people are held accountable.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Headline Juries, please cast your verdict now.

Please ignore absence of complete facts and evidence.

Make sure to judge with your emotions.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Headline Juries, please cast your verdict now.
> 
> Please ignore absence of complete facts and evidence.
> 
> Make sure to judge with your emotions.


Facts and evidence? The Video is quite clear and contradicts the RCMP version of the story.

The user of the taser was not justifiable and shows an abuse of power.
RCMP = Real Canadians Murdering People - cowards.

Kill first ask questions later?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

AS, are you off your rocker? You're suggesting they deliberately murdered the man.

Holy hyperbole, Batman! Why not put them in the centre of a ring and stone them to death? Will that serve your slavering for mob justice in advance of the facts?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Max said:


> AS, are you off your rocker? You're suggesting they deliberately murdered the man.
> 
> Holy hyperbole, Batman! Why not put them in the centre of a ring and stone them to death? Will that serve your slavering for mob justice in advance of the facts?


No, I'm not saying they deliberately murdered a man -
I'm saying that you had a bunch of goons whose actions resulted in someone dying.
The RCMP lied about the events.
As they arrive one is asking if he can use his taser (like a little boy with his toy).
The man is not violent and seems relieved to see the police.
Within seconds, they taser him


> Dziekanski stands with his back to the counter and the officers fan around him.
> 
> Crack - the sound of the 50,000 volts of electricity zapping from an officer's gun can be heard.
> 
> ...


No CPR, nothing....
Negligence resulting in death. Manslaughter

Hope they do prison time.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Headline Juries, please cast your verdict now.
> 
> Please ignore absence of complete facts and evidence.
> 
> Make sure to judge with your emotions.


<sarcasm>Right because the video footage means nothing, nor does the fact that tasers have killed 17 other people in Canada already.<sarcasm>

The video is pretty clear. 4 cops chose to take the easy way out rather than subdue an unarmed man despite the fact that we all should know by now that tasers are potentially deadly. I was taught that police are not supposed to use their weapons unless they are in real danger. The attitude of police with tasers doesn't follow this. I've seen so much video footage of cops abusing tasers (especially in the US) that I'm really sick of this. Charge the cops and get on with the trial.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I'm with GT on this one. You guys are a little too keen to play judge and jury from the get-go. No thanks.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Max said:


> I'm with GT on this one. You guys are a little too keen to play judge and jury from the get-go. No thanks.


I think that is unfair because I want a trial not a lynching Max.
If the cops were justified than a JURY should be able to sort that out.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Max said:


> I'm with GT on this one. You guys are a little too keen to play judge and jury from the get-go. No thanks.


RCMP tried to do a coverup - the video is in stark contrast with their version of the story. Let's bury the truth, right?


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

Well, my previous career was in law enforcement and I dealt with violent suspects with a far less ideal officer to suspect ration than the 4:1 that the RCMP had the luxury of having, including violent suspects who've actually thrown office equipment rather than put it down, and done so without leaving a body count behind.

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy or a deliberate murder. I'm suggesting the RCMP screwed up. Air India, Arar, the alarming trend with the number of constables killed on the job, the alarming trend of suspects mysteriously ending up dead in police custody in BC, the pension fiasco. The RCMP does not have their house in order and needs to get it in order because these are not trivial problems.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Amiga2000HD said:


> Well, my previous career was in law enforcement and I dealt with violent suspects with a far less ideal officer to suspect ration than the 4:1 that the RCMP had the luxury of having, including violent suspects who've actually thrown office equipment rather than put it down, and done so without leaving a body count behind.
> 
> I'm not suggesting a conspiracy or a deliberate murder. I'm suggesting the RCMP screwed up. Air India, Arar, the alarming trend with the number of constables killed on the job, the alarming trend of suspects mysteriously ending up dead in police custody in BC, the pension fiasco. The RCMP does not have their house in order and needs to get it in order because these are not trivial problems.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

I don't know about back East but here in BC this has been a huge daily story for several weeks and much discussion prior to the release of the video. We've heard all kinds of analysis, from all sides, the stories from the fellow's mother, the head of the Airport Authority, many police, taser experts, security experts and many of the bystanders.

It seems clear from all I've heard and now seen that the RCMP marched in there, ignoring what the bystanders were telling them, refused to assess the situation or attempt any effort to deal with it other than to use potentially lethal force. This they did at least twice and from reports at the scene they did not attempt CPR while the poor fellow was laying there dying. From all I've heard and seen, compounded by the police lying, it appears that there is ample evidence for charges to be made. The fact that the coroner's inquest won't happen for 2 years is ridiculous.

If it hadn't been for the guy who made the video threatening to sue the RCMP for its return this probably would have all been forgotten and swept under the carpet.

The tragic thing about this is that if the Vancouver airport had been able to come up with a translator, this guy would be at home with his mother right now. If the police has held off acting until they could get a translator this taser death could have been avoided. All police must know by now that using a taser means you are risking killing someone. Police are only supposed to use lethal force when they are out of options. They had many options here.

There is also a major question about why this guy was waiting for his mother at the airport for 6 hours with no one offering him any help or assistance.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> If it hadn't been for the guy who made the video threatening to sue the RCMP for its return this probably would have all been forgotten and swept under the carpet.


My fear exactly.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

martman said:


> <sarcasm>Right because the video footage means nothing, nor does the fact that tasers have killed 17 other people in Canada already.<sarcasm>
> 
> The video is pretty clear. 4 cops chose to take the easy way out rather than subdue an unarmed man despite the fact that we all should know by now that tasers are potentially deadly. I was taught that police are not supposed to use their weapons unless they are in real danger. The attitude of police with tasers doesn't follow this. I've seen so much video footage of cops abusing tasers (especially in the US) that I'm really sick of this. Charge the cops and get on with the trial.


Judge, jury, and executioner based on a 5 minute video?


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

how many times has this happened before and we just don't know about it because there didn't happen to be someone nearby filming?

to think this is just an isolated incident is silly. the officers in the video clearly had a zeal for this kind of violence.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

News1130 - Many share their strong reactions to video footage of taser incident
"...the police would have been condemned just as harshly if they hadn't reacted, and Dziekanski had gone on to hurt someone." (Link includes videos as well)

News1130 - Demand for independent investigation of events leading to Robert Dziekanski's death
"NPD Public Safety Critic Mike Farnworth is asking for a special prosecutor to look into the Mounties' actions."

News1130 - Taser expert talks about the power of the weapon
"A taser puts out about 50,000 volts at about 1.76 joules."


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

MasterBlaster said:


> _He did not need to be taken down let alone tasered._ *He was of no threat to anyone.*


Interesting point of view, considering: _"Bystander Paul Pritchard's digital camera clicks on as a man appears to be *barricading himself in a secure area of the arrivals terminal. On video, a tall and swarthy Dziekanski lines up desk chairs, a wooden table and a clipboard along doors separating the secure zone from the public waiting area. The doors wave open and shut as he builds his barricade*.

... He steps outside the doors, *wielding the table in front of him, fear in his eyes*. 

... "He's freaking out," a bystander yells, as Dziekanski *heaves a computer to the floor. The wooden table shatters against the glass."*_"

I would consider such actions as hostile and confrontational, so in actual fact, yes he did need to be taken down. Tasered? I don't know, I wasn't there. But arrested and taken into custody? Absolutely.

Source: TheStar.com | Unassigned | Video shows final minutes before Taser death.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Lars said:


> I would consider such actions as hostile and confrontational, so in actual fact, yes he did need to be taken down. Tasered? I don't know, I wasn't there. But arrested and taken into custody? Absolutely.
> [/url].


Yep. I love how everyone is so swift in acting as if they too are trained security personnel who just _know_ what the proper course of action would be in the few minutes given them in a brief, rapidly-evolving situation like this one.

I don't know what happened. Doubtless some mistakes were made... even grave ones. This one man lost his life for it. It must be investigated.

These tasers are great weapons for subduing hostiles... unless you have a heart condition. Most of the time I imagine those holding the tasers have no prior knowledge of the medical condition of the individuals they're trying to take down. Maybe we have to come up with another way of neutralizing these types.


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## Greenlion (Nov 19, 2002)

*Manslaughter for Taserboy*

As someone who works regularly with unstable and out of control individuals, and who trains others in nonviolent crisis intervention, the RCMP _appear_ to violate or ignore the most basic principles of such interventions. 

Clearly there are many failures and gaps yet to be explained concerning YVR's security personnel and why this man was left stranded for hours and hours in the arrivals area, but I can't imagine any scenario that might have occurred that would justify the aggressive and lethal approach chosen by the RCMP?? 

Now having said this, some caution is justified as all the facts may not yet be out, hence the "appear" before violate in my first paragraph. 

But, unless that stapler turns out to be a detonator or some tripped out James Bond "death laser", I think the simplest and most obvious explanation - as captured on the videotape - will prove correct. 

Another testosterone and adrenaline fueled knuckle head with a badge, a lethal weapon and legal sanction to use force (deadly when required) fails to think things through before engaging with an irrational and desperate citizen.

Tragic all around.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Max said:


> Yep. I love how everyone is so swift in acting as if they too are trained security personnel who just _know_ what the proper course of action would be in the few minutes given them in a brief, rapidly-evolving situation like this one.


RCMP are not rent-a-cops. I expect more from them.
The RCPM reacted within 20 seconds. 
I'd like you to be tasered twice in that time and have a goon crush your neck with their knee....



> In fact, the first nine-tenths of the video is just Mr. Dziekanski walking around behind the security barrier, obviously distressed but not actually violent. At one point a woman goes up and tries to speak with him, and then leaves. Security officers mill around, but not much else happens until the police get there. The Tasering seems even more violent because of the complete lack of activity leading up to it -- something that a simple clip from the video as run on the evening news would likely not make as obvious.


globeandmail.com: Ingram 2.0 - Taser video is journalism in the raw


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Perhaps if they toned down the taser a bit, 15,000V at 1.6J sounds a bit excessive no?

I want everyone to think about this.

You receive a 911 call that a distressed man is throwing furniture around, being hostile, barracading himself, yelling in an unknown language, showing signs of aggressive and/or threatening behaviour. With this knowledge only what do you expect when you go to the scene?

When you arrive at the scene, he continues to be uncooperative and according to the 911 call he may have the capacity to hurt someone. What do you do?

They had a choice.

1. Take this guy down assuming that he had the capacity to harm himself, the police, and/or the public. After all he already attempted to throw projectiles at the public.
2. Reason with him and hope he calms down and everything will be all right.

As far as I know, the general public have a right to safety over the threat. It is unfortunate Robert died in the process but I do think they took the right course of action. Of course anyone seeing 4 RCMP officers storm one guy will cry foul. The officers are real people who have to make real tough decisions.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

dona83 said:


> As far as I know, the general public have a right to safety over the threat. It is unfortunate Robert died in the process but I do think they took the right course of action. Of course anyone seeing 4 RCMP officers storm one guy will cry foul. The officers are real people who have to make real tough decisions.


Basically, what you're advocating is shoot first, ask questions later.

Sure, the general public has a right to safety, but lethal or even near lethal force is a last resort. Talking him down is the first. Often the mere presence of police is enough for someone to change their focus and rethink what they are doing. This person didn't get that chance.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

The idea of 'toning down' a Taser is interesting but it neglects the fact that they have to be powerful enough to disable a suspect long enough for the officers involved with the arrest to take the suspect into custody. The problem here is that the Taser is not a one-size-fits-all proposition. Some people can more or less shrug off a jolt from one and keep fighting and there may well be videos of that on the internet too although I'm sure they're less popular than the ones showing excessive force. Anyhow, turn it down, and it becomes ineffective when deployed on a larger number of aggressive suspects. Turn it up, and it'll be more disabling on more people, probably more permanently disabling in more cases causing the number of fatalities to go up.

Any way you slice it, Tasers as is, Tasers turned up, or Tasers turned down, if you go to use one on somebody, there are no guarantees about the result will be. It might have the desired effect, little or no effect, or result in a fatality in custody at the extreme end. But four officers to be unable to control one suspect who's starting to settle down and resort to gratuitous Taser use is just a totally incompetently handled arrest. The number of questionably in custody deaths the RCMP's had in BC the last few years that haven't been properly resolved is alarming. They've clearly got problems out there.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

dona83 said:


> Perhaps if they toned down the taser a bit, 15,000V at 1.6J sounds a bit excessive no?
> 
> I want everyone to think about this.
> 
> ...


the 'public' had been cleared out of the area, therefore there was no threat. 

4 officers against one (clearly) unarmed civilian, therefore, no threat to the officers beyond the normal call of duty

did you even watch the video? the whole thing?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> RCMP are not rent-a-cops. I expect more from them.
> The RCPM reacted within 20 seconds.
> I'd like you to be tasered twice in that time and have a goon crush your neck with their knee....
> [/url]


Would you really, AS? Whatever for? I mean, I know we've had our disagreements before but...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Max said:


> Would you really, AS? Whatever for? I mean, I know we've had our disagreements before but...


If the dog zapper is anything to go by, no...

I would like the RCMP officers to get zapped three times in 20 sec- if only to show how safe it is....


I see the police is spinning


> “It’s just one piece of evidence, one person’s view,” Cpl. Dale Carr told a news conference in Vancouver.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/world/americas/16canada.html?ref=world
Where do they hire these idiots?
oh yes, it's the same ones that claim he was being aggressive and threatening the officers....

You'd think that after Ian Bush they'd be a little more careful...


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> did you even watch the video? the whole thing?


Oh great because everyone who watches the entire video is supposed to come to a conclusion that the cops were way out of line. I apologize for trying to be so unbiased and trying to suggest that the cops may or may not have been at fault and just being plain ignorant and arrogant about this whole issue. Really, I'm sorry. Bad cops! Baaaaaaad. Everyone else thinks you guys are bad therefore so must I. Baaaaaad cops.


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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

There is much I could write, but it would only be variations of the outrage expressed already. I heard this comment earlier today and it says a great deal:

*"The Taser was used because it was available - not because it was needed!"*


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Judge, jury, and executioner based on a 5 minute video?


What? Sorry but this is a load. I said nothing about punishment and said they need to go to court. Where do you get off calling me executioner?
I hope you want the facts to come out and I'd say court is where it is most likely to happen. 
Seriously what was your opinion after watching the video? How about Rodney King?


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## Voyager (Aug 7, 2005)

I found the video very disturbing and it raises a lot of questions. There needs to be an inquiry, independent of any police force, to ascertain if there was any wrong doing or inappropriate use of force on the part of the RCMP officers. If there is a finding of wrong doing or inappropriate force, then charges need to be laid and appropriate penalties need to be handed out. And I don't mean suspension with or without pay.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

To those who are saying that people are rushing to judgement based on looking at a short video; while that might be true in some cases, many of us here in BC have been following this story since the morning after it happened several weeks ago.

I heard the initial inaccurate (to put it nicely) police statement. I have heard several of the witnesses interviewed including the Mr. Pritchard who made the video. I have heard the head of YVR and one of his subordinates speak about the incident. And I have heard the distraught mother's story given by her lawyer. I have been thinking about this for some time, as have many people here in BC.

The fact that the RCMP changed their story once it became clear that the video was going to be released, based on the insistence of Mr. Pritchard, shows that they know they did something wrong. Now their line is to wait 2 years for an inquest. I'm sure that's a great comfort to the victim's family.

From the public statements of witnesses and corroborated by the video it plainly obvious that the police did not attempt to assess the situation. They stormed in and escalated it to the point of using potentially lethal force. They had decided in advance to employ their tasers. There are many ways they could have handled this to contain the situation and there are supposed to be protocols in place that they use to decide on the escalation of force. 

I predict that the victim's mother will win a wrongful death lawsuit that she is sure to launch.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I remember when the Chile Under-20 soccer team played in Toronto, and there was an incident with the Chile team. Everyone and their brother was saying how bad the police where. After a thorough investigation, it was revealed that the police did nothing wrong and several Chilean players admitted wrong doing like punching female police officers in the face. 

I haven't seen the video (I have no interest in watching someone die), but I think we have to let investigations run their course and let all the facts come out before making a final decision. 

ps...

Do NOT make personal jabs / insults at fellow ehMac.ca members. Doing so can result in vacations from ehMac.ca.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

I was totally disgusted by what I saw and heard in the video. A total breakdown of the entire system that ended with rookie cops acting out of emotion and total lack of judgement.. and with no compassion whatsoever. The RCMP holds the ultimate responsibility for what occurred that evening. Whatever happened to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

zlinger said:


> Whatever happened to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms?


It's something that sounds pretty and reassuring, but in fact has no real force or guarantee.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

MasterBlaster said:


> The officers are still on duty and have been in no way restricted in their duties.


In my opinion, the RCMP Core Values have gone right out the door and now only exist when it is convenient for them. What a joke and embarrassment for Canada. If these officers and RCMP are not held accountable for their actions (which most people believe that negligence occurred in this case given the eyewitness video), then I think many people will lose a lot of confidence in our national police force and federal justice system.

"The RCMP Core Values - Accountability: There are two components of accountability. The first is the process of rendering an account to those from whom we derive our authority of what we did, why we did it, how we did it and what we are doing to improve performance or results. An important element of this component is accepting the personal consequences of our actions. The second component of accountability is one of answerability — the obligation to provide information to others in our communities of interest with respect to our decisions, actions and results in light of clear, previously agreed upon understandings and expectations. For example, we inform our communities about our actions, but we must render account of our actions to our direct supervisors. In this organization authorities can be delegated, but accountability cannot." RCMP Accountability


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Haha if we lost our jobs for negligence I think a lot of us would be unemployed right now. So what people want here is to make policing such an unattractive career that no one wants to become one. Would all the anarchists put their hands up.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

dona83 said:


> if we lost our jobs for negligence I think a lot of us would be unemployed right now.


Um....negligence in most jobs does not result in a violent death.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

dona83 said:


> Haha if we lost our jobs for negligence I think a lot of us would be unemployed right now. So what people want here is to make policing such an unattractive career that no one wants to become one. Would all the anarchists put their hands up.


The RCMP lied about what happened. They tried to do a cover up and only released the video because of the potential lawsuit. 

I'd encourage ehmax to view the footage before making statement. And yes, it's sickening to watch. 
Without the video, this would have been sweep under the rug and the "law and order" crowd would still be unabashedly believing the RCMP.

Here was a man in a foreign country, waiting for his mother. She had been at the airport but got the runaround from staff there. He died in immense pain and as a bonus he was "knee jumped" on his neck for good measure. 

He "wandered" the airport for 10 hours and the RCMP arrived on the scene after that - when the taser4 arrive, it took them 24 secs to finish the situation. 

Clearly the RCMP tried to subvert justice and cover up a crime. They are still doing that. If I used a taser the way they did, I'd be in jail at the moment...


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

MasterBlaster said:


> Would that be a good thing, maybe get more people to be more responsible?
> 
> My friends whose parents have retired from the RCMP tell me that the standards and requirements have become very low to get into the RCMP compared to thirty years ago.
> 
> ...


Low standards? Egomaniacs and power trippers? I don't think so. The standards to get into the RCMP have never been higher. The number of applicants and the number of rejected applicants have never been higher. The RCMP can be choosy.

It is now almost impossible to into the RCMP without a university degree - a high school diploma doesn't cut it. All candidates must now also pass psychological and aptitude testing. They even test for literacy to make sure you can spell and use proper grammar. And of course, there is very rigorous physical testing and security screening.

My guess is 75% of the people posting in this thread wouldn't even make the first cut.

I think you're painting with a rather broad brush and making assumptions about a subject that you know nothing about.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

hhk said:


> All candidates must now also pass psychological and aptitude testing. They even test for literacy to make sure you can spell and use proper grammar. And of course, there is very rigorous physical testing and security screening.


So are you saying that ALL RCMP are like the taser4?



> To apply for a job as a regular member (police officer) of the RCMP, you must meet the following basic requirements:
> 
> be a Canadian citizen
> be of good character
> ...


RCMP Recruiting - A Career Nowhere Near Ordinary - Join the RCMP


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

I like how AS leaves out 3/4 of the _actual_ requirements. Those 'requirements' quoted above are the _pre-testing_ requirements; requirements that must be met prior to participating in the pre-interview testing phase; then, you must pass the actual interview phase, and then, you must pass 24 weeks of brutally intense depot training. 

One of my best friends just went through the entire RCMP training phase and is now posted in Nova Scotia. He told me it was the most intense training and learning experience he's ever encountered, boasting some of the steepest requirements in Canada when it comes to law enforcement.

Don't try to make it sound less demanding than it really is.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Lars said:


> Don't try to make it sound less demanding than it really is.


And don't make it sound like it is more demanding than what it is...

*Please post the 3/4 more that I missed*


Given the action of the RCMP of late, I'd say their methods are rather poor.
From Air India, to their own internal strife the RCMP needs a good cleaning.

The incident at the Airport is just another blunder...


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> *Please post the 3/4 more that I missed*.


Try navigating basic web sites...

Gladly:

PRE-INTERVIEW TESTING REQUIREMENTS:

- be a Canadian citizen
- be of good character
- be proficient in English or French
- have a Canadian secondary school (high school) diploma or equivalent
- possess a valid Canadian driver’s licence
- be 19 years of age at the time of engagement (may apply at 18 years of age
- meet medical/health standards
- be willing to relocate anywhere in Canada
- be physically fit

PRE-INTERVIEW REQUIREMENTS:

RCMP Recruiting - A Career Nowhere Near Ordinary - Application Process

Written exams:
RCMP Recruiting - A Career Nowhere Near Ordinary - Join the RCMP - Written Exams / RCMP Police Aptitude Battery
- The RCMP Police Aptitude Battery (RPAB)
- RCMP Police Aptitude Test (RPAT)
- Six Factor Personality Questionnaire (SFPQ)

PREP/Physical testing:
RCMP Recruiting - A Career Nowhere Near Ordinary - Join the RCMP

Pre-interview polygraph testing:
RCMP Recruiting - A Career Nowhere Near Ordinary - Join the RCMP - Pre-employment Polygraph Examination

INTERVIEW:

Interview(s):
RCMP Recruiting - A Career Nowhere Near Ordinary - Join the RCMP - Interviews

POST-INTERVIEW:

RCMP Recruiting - A Career Nowhere Near Ordinary - Training Academy


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

AS, those are basic requirements. You left out that title. If you did a little bit research beyond that first page, you would know what Lars is talking about.

Here is the application process which gives you a better idea of the actual process of becoming a Mountie.

RCMP Recruiting - A Career Nowhere Near Ordinary - Application Process



> The application process involves the following steps:
> 
> * 1. Career Presentation
> * 2. Written exams
> ...


Even if you make it into the training program, you can be tossed for any of the following:



> 1. if the cadet fails to meet established assessment criteria;
> 2. if the cadet fails to meet or abide by any requirements, regulations, policy, procedures or conditions set out in the Cadet Training Handbook or by the Commanding Officer of the RCMP Academy;
> 3. if the cadet becomes ill or sustains an injury during the training period and, as a result of such illness or injury are, in the opinion of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, unable to successfully complete the program;
> 4. if the cadet becomes involved in any activity which may bring discredit to the Cadet Training Program or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, including without limitation, being charged with a criminal or quasicriminal offence or are involved in misconduct of any kind including without limitation, threats, harassment, physical abuse or psychological abuse, cheating, drug and alcohol abuse;
> ...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

hhk said:


> AS, those are basic requirements. You left out that title. If you did a little bit research beyond that first page, you would know what Lars is talking about.
> 
> Here is the application process which gives you a better idea of the actual process of becoming a Mountie.
> 
> ...


If you find those criteria hard (a few interviews and to be physically fit), geeshh... Even fast food joints have similar criteria...

And yes, I did read their process - btw what happened to that statement that you practically needed a Uni degree?

Seems that all that fine training is worth nothing given the actions of the taser4....


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

ArtistSeries said:


> If you find those criteria hard (a few interviews and to be physically fit), geeshh... Even fast food joints have similar criteria...
> 
> And yes, I did read their process - btw what happened to that statement that you practically needed a Uni degree?
> 
> Seems that all that fine training is worth nothing given the actions of the taser4....


You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. A "few interviews and to be physically fit"? Talk about understatement. 

You know to become a neurosurgeon, all you have to do is go to school and pass a few exams. Geeshh, I got my high school diploma exactly the same way.

The university degree is not a basic requirement but is a practical one. There are exceptions where they will accept a high school diploma but they are rare and the candidate has to be exceptional in other ways.

Why don't you call up an RCMP recruitment officer, tell them you are a high school grad, you can bench press 200lbs. and you'd like to know where to sign up.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

hhk said:


> You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. A "few interviews and to be physically fit"? Talk about understatement.


Really? 
And you determined this because you have a friend in the RCMP... 
What a go Sherlock.
I should have taken away the physically fit because the officers that I know are far from that....
And the two regular RCMP that I used to go jogging with, while fit were hardly intellectual giants... 

But hey, keep up that illusion that the RCMP somehow superiour, the action on the video speaks for itself.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

I didn't find any report of a cause of death or autopsy. If someone has this information, please do share it. In the mean time, if this information is not yet known, there is no conclusive evidence that the taser shock was the cause of death. It may appear rather obvious, but you'd be surprised how many deaths aren't as straight forward as they may originally appear to be.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

dona83 said:


> Oh great because everyone who watches the entire video is supposed to come to a conclusion that the cops were way out of line.


if you watch the entire video, the one that is about ten minutes long, this is the only reasonable conclusion.



dona83 said:


> I apologize for trying to be so unbiased and trying to suggest that the cops may or may not have been at fault and just being plain ignorant and arrogant about this whole issue. Really, I'm sorry. Bad cops! Baaaaaaad. Everyone else thinks you guys are bad therefore so must I. Baaaaaad cops.


thou doth protest too much, methinks.

as an aside, why are BCers so defensive of this issue? the RCMP is a federal agency and oversight is a national issue.



Lars said:


> I didn't find any report of a cause of death or autopsy. If someone has this information, please do share it. In the mean time, if this information is not yet known, *there is no conclusive evidence that the taser shock was the cause of death.* It may appear rather obvious, but *you'd be surprised how many deaths aren't as straight forward as they may originally appear to be.*


a man was tasered, he fell down and died instantly. what do you think he died from, cancer? a falling anvil? was he hit by a truck, lars? maybe a terrorist ninja slipped in and stabbed him in the split second between the tasering and the dying, and we just couldn't see it because of the angle of the camera.

how much more straightforward could this possibly be?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Lars said:


> I didn't find any report of a cause of death or autopsy. If someone has this information, please do share it. In the mean time, if this information is not yet known, there is no conclusive evidence that the taser shock was the cause of death. It may appear rather obvious, but you'd be surprised how many deaths aren't as straight forward as they may originally appear to be.


How about a combination of taser shocks and knee to the neck?
Or we can add the police actions.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Whether the Mounties are better trained or worse than other police forces I don't know. I've met a few Mounties locally and all seemed like good and professional officers with the exception of one idiot, who caused a lot of problems in our community.

All the problems that the Mounties have encountered in the last few years are the result of their leadership failings. Bad attitudes trickle down and loose cannons on the force will pick up on those.

There are supposed to be protocols for escalation of force, that appear to have been ignored here. This may have happened if it was the Vancouver Police attending and these type of things have happened all across North America. I think it comes down to effective civilian oversight of the police.

The RCMP is not admitting anything in this case and appear to think we will be happy that they are conducting an "internal" investigation. Not good enough.

I'm in no way anti-cop and I am grateful that they are there doing their jobs, for the most part very well. If I need to call 911, I'll be certainly happy that they are on the job. For areas where they are not doing well they need to be responsive to the communities standards, not a law unto themselves. We are their employers and they need to listen to us when they screw up.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Perhaps a moose as a national symbol is safer.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> a man was tasered, he fell down and died instantly. what do you think he died from, cancer? a falling anvil? was he hit by a truck, lars? maybe a terrorist ninja slipped in and stabbed him in the split second between the tasering and the dying, and we just couldn't see it because of the angle of the camera.
> 
> how much more straightforward could this possibly be?


Are you a medical examiner? Please don't act like the cause of death is indisputable. Until an autopsy is performed, and until the cause of death has been confirmed by a qualified professional, there is no evidence to prove the taser incident killed the man.

Died instantly... interesting. Consider the fact that when I watched that video, he struggled for quite some time. Likewise, if he _was_ tasered more than once, then he really did put up quite a fight.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Lars, he only resisted after goons tasered him.
But yourself is his shoes.. how would you react after being tasered?

This about sums it up


> The Globe and Mail, Canada's most influential newspaper, ran a savage editorial on what it called "*the summary execution of an innocent man*" _whose only crime was being confused._
> 
> "The Taser death video that was being broadcast around the world yesterday is a source of shame and disgrace for Canada and for its national police force," the newspaper said.
> 
> ...


http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/ne...Z_01_N15292344_RTRIDST_0_CANADA-TASER-COL.XML

BTW, he* was tasered more than once*....

So do you think he just died by coincidence after being tasered and stomped on by goons?


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> How about a combination of taser shocks and knee to the neck?


You love the knee comment, eh? Police officers are trained to physically tackle and restrain subjects using non-lethal tactics. Though having someone's knee in your neck is uncomfortable, it is not fatal and is used regularly by police officers to restrain fighting persons. (Being disabled this way impairs your ability to struggle and fight back.) Is this really that difficult to believe?

This has _nothing_ to do with the man's demise unless the officer broke the man's neck, which I find incredibly difficult to believe. The video also doesn't show the officer near the man's head very clearly, so it's probably questionable where exactly the officer had his knee on the subject.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Lars said:


> Consider the fact that when I watched that video, he struggled for quite some time.


Actually if you watch the video again you will see that much of the "struggling" is actually twitching caused by the electrocution.
There is a difference...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Yes Lars, it is just a coincidence. He would of died even if the RCMP had not been there... :yawn:


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Lars, he only resisted after goons tasered him.


That's my point -- he didn't die _instantly_.

It is irrelevant what happens after you are tasered. If you are, you're probably struggling to some degree, which is why the officers then pile on top of you - you're not going to comply by yourself when being fed electricity, or just shortly after.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

martman said:


> Actually if you watch the video again you will see that much of the "struggling" is actually twitching caused by the electrocution.
> There is a difference...


Silly martman, don't you know, those were not screams of pain - he was singing some happy Polish immigrant song...


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

The part that gets me the most is the apologists who have continued to neglect the fact that *NO RESUSCITATION ATTEMPT WAS MADE.* All RCMP officers receive training in CPR so why no CPR?
Disgusting.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

Lars said:


> Are you a medical examiner? Please don't act like the cause of death is indisputable. Until an autopsy is performed, and until the cause of death has been confirmed by a qualified professional, there is no evidence to prove the taser incident killed the man.


you mean, evidence like that which was provided by this medical examiner? i'll pass, thanks. CTV.ca | Disgraced pathologist 'sorry' for multiple mistakes

Lars, you don't need to be a medical professional to see that those RCMP officers killed that man.



Lars said:


> That's my point -- he didn't die _instantly_.
> 
> It is irrelevant what happens after you are tasered. If you are, you're probably struggling to some degree, which is why the officers then pile on top of you - you're not going to comply by yourself when being fed electricity, or just shortly after.


Why do you crave a police state?


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> you mean, evidence like that which was provided by this medical examiner? i'll pass, thanks. CTV.ca | Disgraced pathologist 'sorry' for multiple mistakes


Beautiful example. One pathologist is disgraced, so I guess that means everyone in that profession is. Hell, some corrupted police officers were jailed on corruption charges in Canada, so I guess that means I also can't trust my local PD or the RCMP.

Stop making examples that mean nothing at all.

I'll form an official opinion when an official investigation has been completed in this matter, not an opinion based on a low-quality video that shows a single-side of the story, while making assumptions on the cause of death with no conclusive evidence to support it. If the officers are guilty of negligence, an investigation will show that, and I will accept that fact. But, until that has come and gone, I will make no such premature assumptions on this incident.

But, tell me this. If you were accused of any negligence or misconduct, would you appreciate yourself being labelled as guilty before a thorough investigation into your actions was completed? I doubt it. A single video does not prove every angle of the story of what happened that day, sorry.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Lars, the problem is why even use the tasers.... 

But since you seem to be in tune with the RCMP please explain the following:


> The events on the video appear to conflict at times with the RCMP's version of events immediately after the incident, and observers have raised several concerns over the police conduct. CanWest News Service's Chad Skelton highlights differences between what the video shows and the police version of what happened.
> 
> *Police said:* In its original news release on the incident, the RCMP said *three police officers *were involved in the incident.
> 
> ...


What the video shows, what RCMP says happened


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

Lars said:


> I'll form an official opinion when an official investigation has been completed ...
> 
> ... before a thorough investigation into your actions was completed? I doubt it. A single video does not prove every angle of the story of what happened that day, sorry.


The RCMP have already conducted and completed an official investigation. It was full of official errors and ommissions. One might say it was a official cover up.

What is your official response to the official lies from the RCMP (our official police force) on the matter?


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Geez, even Stockwell Day called for a review.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

It looked like there was ample malfeasance to spread around.

The guy was crazed, smashing everything and perhaps he was on some kind of drugs - one can not tell without testing. So he got less than he deserved, because they should have just shot him like they do in real countries.

But then the cops showed up "minutes after the incident started", perhaps eating donuts at the coffee shop - then proceeded to do everything in their power not to be professional. This goes to demonstrate that airports really should be staffed by real law enforcement officials, not the sham rent-a-cops that go around killing people without reason.

They couldn't find anyone that could speak Polish??? What, did they only ask two people? There has to be a million Poles in this country as there are about a thousand on this street; not to mention all of the other Slavic speakers that live in this country. Someone could have tried a little harder.

Now if the computers the guy trashed were running Vista, I'd fully understand and they should have left him to finish the job. In fact, they should have paid him to go on a little trip to Washington state.

A man died simply because there is ample malfeasance to spread around on this sorry incident.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

This is a truly extraordinary post. Words cannot do it justice.




EvanPitts said:


> It looked like there was ample malfeasance to spread around.
> 
> The guy was crazed, smashing everything and perhaps he was on some kind of drugs - one can not tell without testing. So he got less than he deserved, because they should have just shot him like they do in real countries.
> 
> ...


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

ArtistSeries said:


> Really?
> And you determined this because you have a friend in the RCMP...
> What a go Sherlock.
> I should have taken away the physically fit because the officers that I know are far from that....
> ...


I never said I have a friend in the RCMP. However, I work with the law enforcement community and am familiar with the recruitment and training process. You, on the other hand, have reached your conclusions through intimate investigation of a single video and the browsing of a web page. Great research.

Like I said, if you want to understand the process, make a call. Talk to a recruiter and get the straight goods.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

HowEver said:


> Geez, even Stockwell Day called for a review.


He had too, since he is the Minister that holds the ultimate responsibility over the RCMP (and CBSA who were also involved since it occurred within the customs area). It would be political suicide to shrug off this incident involving alleged serious wrongdoings by civil servants acting under his authority. Once elevated to that level, it becomes a serious matter for the Government. This is the way our democracy works to ensure transparency and accountability.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

MasterBlaster said:


> It looks like someone will be going by the "official" cover up.
> 
> Police and officials can do no wrong and tell no lies.
> 
> Really sickening. tptptptp


I don't think anyone has said that. This is such a polarizing issue, people cannot see shades of grey. Our system of justice is indeed flawed as is our law enforcement. But, for the most part, it works. Incidents like this stand out because they are so rare. Clearly something went wrong in the Vancouver incident. However, the truth is coming out. Let it come out and stop smearing the entire Canadian law enforcement community. That is all I am saying. 

The majority of cops are well meaning and genuinely good people. I doubt the Mounties in this case had criminal intent. But, they showed poor judgment and as one astute poster mentioned, there seems to be a failing of process and training in this incident.

Calling for blood and using words like "murder" and "thugs" hardly helps. In all cases like this, stepping back for a period of reflection is the best course. What is rush to hang these Mounties? The guy is dead. Give them desk jobs until the inquiry is finished. If they are proven to have been negligent or criminal in their actions, make them accountable. If there is a problem in training or recruiting, fix it.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

martman said:


> the apologists


If you're trying to hurl insults at Lars and I and a few others then bring it on. I want a formal independent investigation done just as much as everyone else on this board but I don't think it's right to judge the officers on a single video because it could very well be misleading. It's way too early to tell what really happened that day as there were obviously events before and after the video as well. 

I bring up that one episode of Malcolm in the Middle of the one video which showed Lois cutting off another guy, putting her at fault. A second video from a different angle showed that the guy illegally did a U-Turn in the commercial district and had to stop suddenly because Lois had a right of way doing her right turn. 

*EDIT*
I'm sorry but we're in the 21st century here, there is no need to come to a conclusion based on a single opinion, video, emotions, etc. I thought we have better ways here.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

MasterBlaster said:


> I was quoting the opinions of both retired and active RCMP officers. These are their opinions, not mine. I would think that they know what they are talking about, most of them have decades of experience each and have worked throughout the country.


Was this an official survey of some sort or are going by what you heard some friend of your parents said? Ever hear the term "hearsay"?

The truth, and not hearsay, is that admission standards have tightened up and the bar is very high. According the PMO, the RCMP receives 8,500 applicants a year and between 1,000 and 1,500 are accepted.

There is a very thorough Wikipedia entry on this very topic.

RCMP recruiting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

dona83 said:


> I bring up that one episode of Malcolm in the Middle of the one video which showed Lois cutting off another guy, putting her at fault. A second video from a different angle showed that the guy illegally did a U-Turn in the commercial district and had to stop suddenly because Lois had a right of way doing her right turn.


No change of angle is going to change the fact that they didn't use CPR.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

hhk said:


> I never said I have a friend in the RCMP. However, I work with the law enforcement community and am familiar with the recruitment and training process. _You, on the other hand, have reached your conclusions through intimate investigation of a single video and the browsing of a web page. Great research._
> 
> Like I said, if you want to understand the process, make a call. Talk to a recruiter and get the straight goods.


No hhk, you assumed a lot and your insinuations are all over the place. 

For all your bluster about “almost impossible to into the RCMP without a university degree - a high school diploma doesn't cut it. All candidates must now also pass psychological and aptitude testing. They even test for literacy to make sure you can spell and use proper grammar. And of course, there is very rigorous physical testing and security screening.” , well what can I say – I guess that makes them extraordinary humans… 

Except for the fact that the minimum to apply is a secondary diploma. A university degree is hardly a harbinger of intelligence, psychological and aptitude are common in many other jobs, I’d expect a university grad to be able to spell correctly. As for security screening, another common step and I’d expect that. The physical testing , go figure… 

Given the response and actions of the taser4, seem that the recruitment process is not all that great. Aren’t these the same clowns that shipped Arar also? 

Had RCMP Gary Stevens jailed for assaulting 2 teenagers…

Had RCMP officer Nancy Sulz win close to a 1 000 000$ lawsuit for sexual harassment by her superiors…

Falsely accused Greg Sorbara (Ontario finance minister)of crimes and fabricating evidence…

Messed up and lied regarding RCMP Marc Bourdages and Robin Cameron…
Have a rookie officer blow out Ian Bush’s brain while in custady…
Have it’s main office Zaccardelli give incomplete testimonial (then say he made a mistake)…

Have the Superior court strike down a law because the RCMP are using it to intimidate a journalist?

Had it’s own officers throw out a case against it’s own officer for having sex with underage prostitutes – only to be convicted by a real judge?

Lied to get wiretaps on Premier Gordon Campbell?

Had Officer Thierry Jacques sentenced to 3 years for sexually assaulting a female prisoner?

Have Auditor-General Sheila Fraser slam the mess they made with their pension fund?

Have its main officer (Zaccardelli) force to resign for lying?

Stupidly announce a probe just before Federal elections and influencing the outcome of the election?

Have their mole (Agent E8060) kill under a new identity?


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

MasterBlaster said:


> If you read it properly I clearly said my friends parents were retired RCMP officers.
> 
> I NEVER said what my friends parents say. I also am going by what my friends who are current officers are telling me: "How the hell are so many ill suited idiots getting through the recruitment process?"
> 
> Obviously incompetent people working in the recruiting process.


Okay, I'm going by numbers only and I suppose a large number of applicants doesn't necessarily mean a large number of high quality applicants. No doubt the guns, the power and the paramilitary aspect of police work do attract some nutbars.


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

AS, you offer nothing but criticism and vitriol. How do you suggest we fix this problem? Should we dismantle the force? Should we arrest all the top Mounties and shoot them? Should we hand out guns and deputize every other citizen? Or should we let anarchy rule.

You remind me of the mobs that follow the G8 conferences all over the world just for the opportunity to toss rocks at police. Hate and destruction solves nothing.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

I find it interesting - yet very stupid - that citizens take such a situation so personally. "Let's cancel our trip to Canada because a few RCMP officers used some force against a fellow international visitor." Okay then.

Such situations are also used by many Canadians to paint a very broad picture of Canada's legal and law enforcement with the same tainted brush.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

If there are cancellations because of what happened in Vancouver, I'd wager they are few and far between.

It probably has something to do with Air Canada's problems, if anything.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

If people from elsewhere in the world are daft enough to think that this single incident greatly increases their chances of being tasered to death once they land on Canadian soil, I respectfully suggest they stay safe by staying home.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Oh....



> *Police in Canada probe second taser death in one week*
> 
> Oct 18, 2007
> 
> ...


I'd say yes there is a higher risk - of irresponsible police.
The difference is it's being SEEN.....not covered up.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Actually, the people canceling probably know very well that they won't be tasered, at least not right away, if they get stuck in the baggage claim area at the airport.

What they are doing is making a statement, a political and more importantly an *economic* statement, saying that the behaviour of the RCMP was simply wrong.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

MannyP Design said:


> If there are cancellations because of what happened in Vancouver, I'd wager they are few and far between.
> 
> It probably has something to do with Air Canada's problems, if anything.


or the high dollar.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Oh....
> 
> I'd say yes there is a higher risk - of irresponsible police.
> The difference is it's being SEEN.....not covered up.


Whatever. You must have missed this part of the article:

_"...then became *aggressive during questioning* by police."_

If you become confrontational with police, you will be 'zapped.' Why is that wrong? If the police officers' well being is threatened, they will use force to ensure their own and others safety. If _you're_ the one causing the threatening disturbance, then _your_ well being, understandably, will certainly not be high on the officers' list of priorities.

Of course tasers will kill certain people. Some have medical conditions which will result in death if 50,000-volts pass through their bodies. But, of course, since you also seem to have an increasing beef with law enforcement officials, you believe that _every_ taser related death is either unjustified (as if you were there), or some type of cover-up based conspiracy, based solely on this Vancouver airport incident, "because they can." That's again using the same tainted brush to paint every taser incident ever recorded as if they _all_ happened under unjustified conditions. Sad.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Bottom line: Don't be a moron. Reasonable people who obey the law and don't lack basic intelligence don't get tasered and therefore don't risk death from being zapped by one. Evidently, even that is asking for too much.


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

Lars said:


> Bottom line: Don't be a moron. Reasonable people who obey the law and don't lack basic intelligence don't get tasered and therefore don't risk death from being zapped by one. Evidently, even that is asking for too much.


Well, there was that guy at the John Kerry event. I don't think he was actually asking for a tasering. But that was in the U.S. and the taserers were rent-a-cops aka university security.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sure Lars - still angling for that cop job??.....you're a real exemplar of the breed.....



> *RCMP falsehoods on Dziekanski's death*
> 
> From Saturday's Globe and Mail
> November 16, 2007 at 7:30 PM EST
> ...


globeandmail.com: RCMP falsehoods on Dziekanski's death



> Alabama: *Sober Diabetic Man Tasered,* Accused of DUI
> Man having a diabetic attack faces DUI charges even though he had no alcohol in his system.
> 
> Police in Ozark, Alabama on Tuesday used a taser on a sober man who was having a diabetic seizure. A trio of police cruisers were called to the scene of a black Nissan truck and trailer pulled over on the side of the road near the intersection of Highway 231 and Marley Mill Road at around 4pm. James Bludsworth, 54, a man with no criminal record, was was slumped over behind the wheel. Because of his condition he was not responsive to police commands.
> ...





> *Diabetic Tasered After Mistaken For Terrorist*
> 11-15-2007
> Daily Mail
> 
> ...


sure.......


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

The twisting of the story by the RCMP is inexcusable. They need to find out who twisted the truth. Was it the officers or was it a white wash?

I think there are a lot of contributing factors to this event and I am not sure what percentage of that can be attributed to the officers involved. Who much can be put to their training? Did they follow their training? If so, then that is a major factor. 

I feel bad for the poor guys mom.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

When tasers were first brought into Vancouver they were billed as a potential replacement for using lethal force. They were supposed to be the last step short of shooting someone if lives were in danger. RCMP guidelines as well as the rules of other police forces state that the taser is not to be used simply because someone is being disobedient.

Now police forces everywhere seem to be using it as a quick compliance tool. This is illegal and given that there is a risk of death it is absolutely wrong to use it unless the person in question is threatening someone's life. When confronted with people who are simply emotionally disturbed there are far better and safer proven methods for dealing with this.

What these Mounties did was wrong on so many levels and like so many police forces their first instinct is to attempt a coverup. Yet we are supposed to trust them to conduct a fair investigation of this? Only the gullible would do so.

The original story from the Mounties was dependent on the video never seeing the light of day. At the scene they promised Mr. Pritchard that he would get his camera and video back in a few days, yet when he later questioned them they told him that wasn't going to happen. Several weeks ago he and other witnesses started speaking out and then Mr. Pritchard got a lawyer and threatened a lawsuit to have the video returned. This is when the RCMP coverup started to fall apart. They had no legal right to hold the video and had to comply. Now they're up to their ears in it.

The Mounties have been besmirching their reputation for quite a few years now as well as the international reputation of Canada. I think the only answer is a complete top to bottom restructuring, enforced transparency and powerful civilian oversight. They've been screwing up and lying since the Air India investigation and have proved that they can't be trusted.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## The Shadow (Oct 28, 2006)

My buddy told me about and I thought he was kidding around. Then I saw the video. I know everyone's gotta different opinion on who was right and who was wrong but...

Marshall McLuhan said that "the medium is the message" and based on that tape, whether the police were justified or not, it looks like they killed that poor man plain as day. 

Everyone's eyes have already absorbed it, the damage is already done.

They won't be able to press conference their way out of this one.


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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

I received an email from a relative of mine in the United States today.

She wrote:
_
Face it. In the eyes of the world you're now just as bad as us [America]._

Grudgingly, I must admit she may be correct.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

The RCMP and all police forces have major work to accomplish in order to rebuild trust with the public -- if it can even be done now. If they want my respect ever again, then I would like to see a full top to bottom evaluation of all operations and procedures.

Yes, I know and agree that most officers are good police who are dedicated "to serve and protect".. but it is the bad and idiot cops we need to worry about. They taint the entire system with their actions. Enough is enough, and I'm glad that people here in Canada and around the world are speaking up about what happened to Mr. Robert Dziekanski.

I have seen firsthand an officers above the law egotistical "I'm a tough guy" behavior. Here in Vancouver, I witnessed a cop "training" his two other younger rookie officers how to instigate and provoke a person so they can find a way to arrest them and throw them in the drunk tank.. They smell any alcohol on your breath, then your f'ed -- even if you have had only one drink, are a good citizen, and pay your taxes (that pay for their wages and donuts I might add). They tried this tactic (but didn't succeed) on a friend of mine one peaceful night after a few drinks at the bar.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

zenith said:


> I received an email from a relative of mine in the United States today.
> 
> She wrote:
> _
> ...


You're kidding, right? Your friend might want to reconsider that thought. I mean REALLY think about it. One unfortunate incident with a man's single death at the hands of a couple of idiots, versus a single idiot's killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents?

Yeah, that'll do it.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

hhk said:


> Well, there was that guy at the John Kerry event. I don't think he was actually asking for a tasering. But that was in the U.S. and the taserers were rent-a-cops aka university security.


Now were importing Taser deaths into this discussion? I thought it was about the Royal CANADIAN Mounted Police?


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

Lars said:


> Bottom line: Don't be a moron. Reasonable people who obey the law and don't lack basic intelligence don't get tasered and therefore don't risk death from being zapped by one. Evidently, even that is asking for too much.


in lars' world, if you 'lack basic intelligence' you should expect to get tasered by the police.

why are you having so much difficulty comprehending that an innocent man was killed by police, on video? lack of basic intelligence?

you remind me of someone ...


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Basic lack of intelligence well yea throwing things around when you're asking for help? Sure if anyone could get close enough to you to offer help.

Good on the cops for doing their job. Unfortunately it did lead to the death of a man, but they did their job. To SERVE and PROTECT the people. If some guy was throwing things at me I want that guy taken down.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

dona83 said:


> Good on the cops for doing their job.


YIKES!
I suppose the police can do no wrong in your eyes?
I find the idea of praising the cops for killing a man then failing to use CPR quite sad really. Should we praise cops who get caught selling drugs too? How about ones who get caught beating innocent people too?
CTV.ca | T.O. cop sentenced to jail for 2003 assault


> T.O. cop sentenced to jail for 2003 assault
> 
> Updated Fri. Sep. 23 2005 11:54 PM ET
> 
> ...


The upshot is the police need to be held accountable to the law just like any other citizen and assuming that they did no wrong when there is video evidence to the contrary is disingenuous at best and downright myopic at worse. What will it take for you to admit 4 cops did wrong here?


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

I wonder what point of views would change if the man hadn't died in this incident. Are we uptight because the man died, or because he was tasered for seemingly no good enough reason? What if he didn't die?


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

dona83 said:


> Basic lack of intelligence well yea throwing things around when you're asking for help? Sure if anyone could get close enough to you to offer help.
> 
> Good on the cops for doing their job. Unfortunately it did lead to the death of a man, but they did their job. To SERVE and PROTECT the people. If some guy was throwing things at me I want that guy taken down.


The cops didn't do their job.

People at the scene did not say that he was threatening anyone. He was raving and obviously emotionally disturbed, yes.

If the cops had done their job they would not have rushed in, without assessing the situation, deciding in advance to use a taser. They are only supposed to use a taser as one step below lethal force, when lives are in danger. They are not supposed to use a taser as quick and easy compliance enforcement. From the video and according to statements from people at the scene no one's life was in danger. The police could have contained the situation, easily done because he was in a separate room, found someone to talk to him in his own language and calmly de-escalated the situation.

Why is "taking him down" the only option here? How about calming him down and finding out what the problem is. As I heard someone on the radio say yesterday, a wounded wild animal would have received more care and consideration by the police if he'd been trapped at the airport than Mr. Dziekanski did.

They did not serve and protect in this case, not even close.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> The cops didn't do their job.


And their version of the story did not match up with the tape.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Lars said:


> I wonder what point of views would change if the man hadn't died in this incident. Are we uptight because the man died, or because he was tasered for seemingly no good enough reason? What if he didn't die?


I called my MP and demanded that she introduce legislation clarifying when tasers may be used and when not. I personally an sick of reading about and seeing videos of cops misusing tasers. Yes it IS worse when people get killed. Why should this surprise you? No that is not the end of it. Tasers are a potentially lethal weapon and are often used as an instrument of punishment / torture. This is not appropriate and it reflects badly on us as Canadians.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Vandave said:


> And their version of the story did not match up with the tape.


This to me is the most disturbing part is that the cops lied about the incident and I think that points to the fact that the cops know what they did was wrong. I'd add that attempting to quash the tape is further reason to not believe the police in this instance.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

martman said:


> This to me is the most disturbing part is that the cops lied about the incident and I think that points to the fact that the cops know what they did was wrong. I'd add that attempting to quash the tape is further reason to not believe the police in this instance.


People wonder why some trust the cops - They lied at the Montebello summit with the undercover thugs, and they lied here. 
I'm surprised by how many are ready to forgive them.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

today's Toronto Star said:


> It was not a banner day for the Toronto police force as more than one-fifth of the courtrooms at the University Ave. courthouse were hearing cases involving Preston and eight other officers on the force – the charges ranging from sexual assault to corruption.
> 
> Standard courthouse procedure calls for convicted criminals to be led away immediately in handcuffs to a holding cell in the basement of the courthouse, and then driven to jail.
> 
> ...


<sarcasm> The police never do anything wrong</sarcasm>


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

The next time I get pulled over speeding, I'm going to immediately put my hands up and out the window and beg them not to shoot or taser me. They pulled a gun on me once driving out of L.A. when we were switching drivers on the highway. You can't trust them anymore.... anywhere. Fcukin pigs.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

zlinger said:


> You can't trust them anymore.... anywhere. Fcukin pigs.


I realize this is an emotionally charged topic, but let's not stoop too low.


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

One thing I hope is not missed in all this is the utter failure of the system in dealing with a new immigrant. Has anyone been in an airport and actually asked for help? There's really no one to ask. You can try security, airline staff, police, customs officers - it's really hit and miss. Now imagine if you don't speak the language and it's your first ever trip through an airport. 

If someone had helped this man find his mother, we would not even be having this discussion.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

hhk said:


> One thing I hope is not missed in all this is the utter failure of the system in dealing with a new immigrant. Has anyone been in an airport and actually asked for help? There's really no one to ask. You can try security, airline staff, police, customs officers - it's really hit and miss. Now imagine if you don't speak the language and it's your first ever trip through an airport.
> 
> If someone had helped this man find his mother, we would not even be having this discussion.


I agree with that. We have yet to hear a complete story from Customs and YVR officials about why Mr. Dziekanski was left hanging around for so long. Presumably they were able to communicate with him somehow because he had cleared customs. Why couldn't they have helped him out?

There must be more video available as well. No doubt Mr. Dziekanski was in the vicinity of many security cameras during his hours at YVR.

I'm sure we haven't heard the last of this for some time and it's likely Mr. Dziekanski's mother will be launching a lawsuit. There are many things that have to be revealed about what happened.

But the larger issue is that a series of unfortunate circumstances that made an anxious man become emotionally distressed was escalated into a tragic ending by these Mounties.

I'd like to make the point that it's not appropriate to slag all cops because of this or because of various anecdotes of unprofessional behaviour. I too have been on the wrong side of bad cops, but I've also been in the situation where I've been really glad they were on the job. The bottom line is that they are people, like everyone else. But they are people who we give an incredible amount of power to, for necessary reasons. Being people that power is bound to get abused. Which is why powerful civilian oversight is absolutely necessary. They have to know that when they violate codes of conduct there will be consequences. As it stands currently many police forces act as a law unto themselves.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Sorry my last post was mostly bait to see if anyone would get off topic and attack me instead of arguing about the topic itself. I really do feel sorry for Robert and it saddens me what happened and those cops could've handled it better maybe but I hate playing the blame game. A guy is dead, family is mourning, and the officers involved probably feel a great deal of remorse right now. I really dislike all this finger pointing right now especially while facts and evidence is scarce other than this video. Let's hope the right thing is done and an independent investigation done.

I saw on the news today, can't quote it exactly, but something like...

"The effectiveness of the police forces depends largely on the trust of the community and right now there is a great deal of mistrust and misperception on us from the public and we need to do everything we can to rebuild that trust."


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Wow, what an interesting discussion.

What nobody has talked about is how this all relates to Airport Security in North America. Remember now that Bush has pushed for stronger security in the U.S., and here in Canada all major airports are to tighten down security and take no potential threats seriously. With 9/11 and major airports in North America having tighter security or trying in some cases, it doesn't all surprise me one bit that something like this happened. You have a non English speaking person, in an International Airport taking a fit, acting out of control for what ever reason, and with today's bomb threats and other cases, I can almost see what was running through the RCMP's minds in those few seconds. I think if we were to go back before 9/11 and the Iraq war and have this happen, that man would probably be alive today instead of dead. Also, did he have a heart condition? Was he in good health? As far as I'm concerned we have only seen one view of this incident and we barely know all the facts at this time. So, I can't make any judgements on how the RCMP did in this case until I know all the facts, one little video is not going to do it for me. Sorry!


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

MacGYVER said:


> Wow, what an interesting discussion.
> 
> What nobody has talked about is how this all relates to *Airport Security in North America. Remember now that Bush has pushed for stronger security in the U.S., and here in Canada all major airports are to tighten down security and take no potential threats seriously*. With 9/11 and major airports in North America having tighter security or trying in some cases,* it doesn't all surprise me one bit that something like this happened.* You have a non English speaking person, in an International Airport taking a fit, acting out of control for what ever reason, and with today's bomb threats and other cases, I can almost see what was running through the RCMP's minds in those few seconds. I think if we were to go back before 9/11 and the Iraq war and have this happen, that man would probably be alive today instead of dead. Also, did he have a heart condition? Was he in good health? As far as I'm concerned we have only seen one view of this incident and we barely know all the facts at this time. So, I can't make any judgements on how the RCMP did in this case until I know all the facts, one little video is not going to do it for me. Sorry!


That's why he wandered around for close to 10 hours....  
I read that some right wing wackos objected that his mom called him a boy, so they tried to paint him as mentally retarded...

The RCMP lied, they tried to make a cover up - almost got away with it if not for the video... and if they had some "proof" of their story on video, it would be out already...


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> B.C. launches public inquiry into Taser incident
> Updated Mon. Nov. 19 2007 10:08 PM ET
> 
> CTV.ca News Staff
> ...


 :clap:

CTV.ca | B.C. launches public inquiry into Taser incident


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

The real question is... where the hell was his family??


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

dona83 said:


> The real question is... where the hell was his family??


After trying to find out where he was, his mother was told that he was not at the airport and sent home.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

I have a few questions:

1. Which airline did Robert Dziekanski arrive on?
2. Where there other Polish speaking passengers onboard? If so, did Robert communicate to them that he didn't speak English? Did he ask them for help to get around at the airport when they landed and got off?
3. Was his mother at the airport prior to the aircraft landing, waiting? Or did she arrive some time later after all the passengers had picked up their luggage and left? leaving Robert by himself?
4. Did Robert communicate with the flight attendants prior to leaving the aircraft to see if he could get help, due to not speaking English?

From what I understand is that Vancouver International was his final destination as that is where his mother was supposed to pick him up? What doesn't make any sense is, why he was left alone waiting? No passengers were able to help him locate his baggage and family? Or was he difficult? No airline employee around to help him? They do help if asked.... and why was he waiting around for 10 hours? I have so many questions prior to the whole RCMP police incident, but I can't seem to find any answers. Anyone have any of them available?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

MasterBlaster said:


> It's foreign perception of Canada, which is now permanently damaged because of this incident.


Says who?

Sorry, I think you're a wee bit exaggerating third-hand info from a person who has no real idea of "damage" this incident has done to Canada's reputation. Odd that it coincided with Air Canada's massive SNAFU with electronic passes. But whatever.

I hear Germany's tourism industry is still suffering.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I think it's a tipping point for perception of the Mounties tho.
Cross Country and CBC phone in has been pretty critical.

When you accumulate all the issues, Air India, pension scandal, pepper spraying, youngsters killed, ....indicative of big time rot.

Guy on CBC says Mounties used to be best trained in Canada - now everything it budget oriented not quality oriented.
Local cops get better.

Stats are horrid - Mounties now the most dangerous police force to work for in North America.
Overhaul time - no more rent-a-cop for the provinces.

The Mounties NEED to be a top notch federal force.....they aren't.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

i find it odd that the media are treating this story as if it were about tasers, and not about systemic incompetence and corruption within the RCMP.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

After all of this stuff going on with Airlines in this country, I think I'll continue to drive everywhere. Sure, the highways may be dangerous - but at least I have a chance.

The Mounties have been bumbling ever since the whole wiretapping scandal in the 70's. They never did anything about Air India, nor did they ever really investigate all of the corruption at Air Canada that was going on (the Airbus scandal, the WestJet scandal). A few years ago they shipped people out to Syria, so that they could be tortured and beaten; and a Citizen was practically left for dead in China because he believed in the freedom for the Uzbeks; and now a visitor to this country was killed - all out of the malfeasance that has infested the RCMP in the past 40 years. I never did understand the whole pepper spray scandal. That cop dude went crazy with that big tank of it, spraying anyone within range. Perhaps if he was trained and was doing his job, he would have just attacked the illegal protesters instead of the innocent.

At least the Mounties are not the OPP, who are a scandal onto their own. Long live Dudley George!


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

MacDoc said:


> I think it's a tipping point for perception of the Mounties tho.
> Cross Country and CBC phone in has been pretty critical.
> 
> When you accumulate all the issues, Air India, pension scandal, pepper spraying, youngsters killed, ....indicative of big time rot.
> ...


That, I completely agree with. The actions shown on the video are clearly proof positive.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

MacGYVER said:


> I have a few questions:
> 
> 1. Which airline did Robert Dziekanski arrive on?
> 2. Where there other Polish speaking passengers onboard? If so, did Robert communicate to them that he didn't speak English? Did he ask them for help to get around at the airport when they landed and got off?
> ...


So far, the YVR Customs people who dealt with him haven't spoken publicly. And the YVR brass has been extremely tight-lipped. There is obviously a ton of missing info on why this guy was left waiting around for so long and why no one seemed to be helping him out. Hopefully this will come out in the inquiry.

But - all of these possible screwups only resulted in a man who for reasons we don't really know yet becoming emotionally distressed and anxious. It's the Mounties who unnecessarily turned this into a tragedy by their gross over-reaction.

Came across a newspaper article yesterday detailing how the Mounties clearly violated their own legal guidelines on use of the taser. I have heard this mentioned now for weeks and it is essential to the issue since in their original lies the RCMP spokespeople spun the story to indicate that they had not violated their guidelines. They stated that Mr. Dziekanski was resisting arrest and being violently threatening towards them and that multiple taserings were required as he struggled. They clearly knew from the very beginning that they had done wrong and went straight into lying and ass-covering mode, including attempting to prevent the video from being released.

A news story came out yesterday about how the RCMP pepper-sprayed, billy-clubbed and tasered a man in a Chilliwack convenience store who was reported to have been uncontrollably violent. They didn't kill him, but he's in hospital. I haven't heard any other witnesses yet and my gut feeling is that this sounds like a petty-criminal-on-drugs situation, but as I listened to the Mountie spokeslady describing what went down my first thought was "How can I really believe her?" Was the guy really being uncooperative and resisting as they claim?

The Mounties have massively damaged their own reputation and thereby their own effectiveness and I think the solution will have to go much deeper than a use-of-taser study.

Not that I want to give Harper any helpful tips, but he could be a hero right now if he called for a complete organizational review, based on this and other incidents in recent history and pushed for powerful civilian oversight.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

MasterBlaster said:


> This systemic incompetence throughout the country is why I am not a big fan of this country.


I'm of course not defending the incompetence you speak of but please, show me any government or large bureaucracy, private or public that doesn't have some level of incompetence. I think you're overreacting in saying that is somehow the fault of Canada as a country. It's the fault of several organizations that need some work, but you'll find those in all countries.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

News1130 - Firefighters upset they weren't called to YVR

"It took paramedics 11 minutes to arrive at YVR. The firehall's response time is just two minutes. There's also word the four Mounties at the center of the case could be facing jail time."


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Big legal bill cometh - unfortunately not only for the company 



> Weapon's makers gird for dozens of lawsuits
> 
> TERRI THEODORE
> 
> ...


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Big difference - smoking is SELF inflicted.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Big legal bill cometh - unfortunately not only for the company


Are you actually angry that the company defends itself as aggressively as it does?


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

MasterBlaster said:


> The Tobacco company or the Taser company?


The Taser company.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

MacDoc said:


> Big difference - smoking is SELF inflicted.


Maybe the dude freaked out because he didn't have a smoke? They did make him wait around for ten hours, and even though I do not smoke, I think the ten hour wait would provoke a craving for such vice. Besides, they have real cigarettes in the former easten bloc; he'd probably have to smoke an entire pack of our wuzzy smokes to get the buzz that he'd get off of a single Polish cigarette. Perhaps the cops could have let him "break the law" and smoke in public, it would have saved a few computers.

I think it was less the Taser shot that killed him, than the punishments that the Mounties administered right afterward. It was so scary that Dion is afraid to watch the video...


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> Big difference - smoking is SELF inflicted.


Yes. Until we're talking about second-hand smoke. Then it's like spraying the room with carcinogens.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

AFP: Canada's third Taser death sparks 8th concurrent probe


> Canada's third Taser death sparks 8th concurrent probe
> 
> 1 day ago
> 
> ...


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

Canada Abroad: The world asks 'why did this Polish immigrant die?'


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> or someone they know has had really bad experiences with Canadian Government officials and legal system bungling when they were here. It left them with bitter memories of bad experiences.
> 
> Also they report bullying and goon like attitudes from ALL Canadian police forces.


That's true at the border these days - over the last year clearly someone read the US inspectors the riot act and they've been polite and helpful - no less thorough but far more pleasant and good ambassadors - that's a huge change from the past.

The Canadian guys are far more uneven now and way too many complaints.
That may be partly underfunding - too much to do.

There used to be standards posted up for all to see......long gone thanks to "fear of man in tent" mind set.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

*What are the police smoking?*

Well, it did not take long for the Police to start lying again - how can anyone trust these clowns


> *Four police officers monitored Robert Dziekanski's breathing and pulse after he was shot with a Taser and fell to the floor at Vancouver International Airport, an RCMP spokesman said Friday.*
> "Breathing and pulse and consciousness were present at that time," said Cpl. Dale Carr, of the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team, which is investigating the Polish immigrant's death on Oct. 14.
> *"The officers were not just standing around Mr. Dziekanski while he lay deceased at their feet, waiting for emergency personnel to arrive."*
> Accounts of Dziekanski's confrontation with police and his final moments after being shot at least twice by a Taser-wielding officer have pointed out it took some time for medical help to reach the dying man. A nearby airport first-responder team was not summoned.
> "It is important to let the community know that the officers, from what we've learned in the investigation, they did assist, they did monitor him," Carr said in an interview.


The Canadian Press: RCMP monitored Dziekanski's breathing and pulse till help arrived: Mountie
Of course some to have a little ethics....


> *Police, fire chief disagree on airport Taser incident*
> RCMP initially refused to take cuffs of Dziekanski
> 
> *"We were doing our assessment, and we found no breath and no pulse," said Geoff Lake, deputy chief of Richmond Fire-Rescue.*
> ...


Police, fire chief disagree on airport Taser incident

Do you think that the RCMP and Mulroney have the same team of advisors....


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

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