# short rant---Lion, the end of my Apple affiliation.



## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

--begin rant--
As much as it pains me to to say this, I think Snow Leopard is the end of the line for OS X for me.
I've been an early adopter of many OS X version upgrades up to Snow Leopard, but at 75 years of age I think Snow Leopard will carry me till I'm no longer interested in computers and life in general.
All this dumbing down in Lion to capture the iphone fan market has left me thinking this is not what computers as a hobby is all about.
As a hobbyist I always looked forward to the challenge, not for a way to be shielded from it.
Having said that I'd have to add that computers have never been anything more then a very interesting hobby-passtime for me, someone who needs OS X for their livelihood will undoubtedly feel much different.
--end of rant--


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## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I too am sticking with 10.6.X until I no longer can use it.

Shame really, considering I was on it since the public beta.

Probably end up on a dual boot PC ---linux and WinX.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Man. I had such high hopes on this one.im hearing nothing but bad in terms of production and work. Everyone's talking wintel etc.

What is apple thinking?


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

They're fsck'd bunch of iPhone -iPad-iPod weenies....


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I didn't realize Snow Leopard was 75 years old. 

Seriously, though, I had great trepidation about jumping into Lion, and have similar apprehension about going iCloud, but I'm finding the experience pretty good so far—superior even in many ways. Once I saw that many of my most-used apps are Lion-compliant, I started porting over. I do miss accessibility to AppleWorks docs, though, but there's workarounds.


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

I like lion. Still haven't installed it on my "work" machine, but i'm enjoying the experience on my macbook pro.

there are a few issues here and there, but many of them can be resolved by looking around for tips on the internet.


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## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I think some of you might be over-reacting JUST a little. There are definitely improvements here. Swiping between webpages with one finger on a Magic Mouse is great, although I wish I could do all the gestures on my older 2008 MacBook touchpad. I also like using the Launcher in a hot corner to give me instant access to my all my Apps, along with iOS-style folders to sort them is I wish. Snow Leopard was great, and I have it cloned just in case, but for me anyway the benefits of Lion now outweigh any drawbacks I perceived before getting it. And for $29? That doesn't begin to compare with the six cluster-f*** versions of Windows available for a much higher price.


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## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


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## slipstream (May 9, 2011)

kps said:


> They're fsck'd bunch of iPhone -iPad-iPod weenies....


Well, that's me. I'm new to Apple after many years of Windows frustrations, and very happy to be a productive "fsck'd ...iPhone -iPad-iPod weenie" with my iMac running Lion, my iPhone and my iPad. Oh, and my iPod.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I can honestly say that Lion injected all kinds of new life into my 2007 MacBook and I'm really enjoying its features.

Do I use every new feature? No I don't. Have no use for Launchpad for example.

But you know what? I think if you'll search your memories you will find that you guys said similarly-grumpy things about previous OS transitions. Maybe not you personally, but some of us do recall the WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH that greeted Snow Leopard, and Tiger, and OS X 10.0, and the transition to Intel ...

I have nothing against Snow Leopard, it's great. You wanna stay there, that's your business. Change can be tiring.

But give me a freakin' break on the "dumbed down" stuff. Lion isn't "dumbed down" anything, it's actually more *sophisticated and refined* than Snow Leopard in so many ways. You guys sound like PC users making fun of Mac users for our "dumbed down" interface (oh, you mean the one that works?). Come to think of it, most of them are still on XP aren't they?

If there's really an alternative OS out there that gets better but doesn't "change" in ways some users moan about, I'd be very interested in hearing about it. I just don't think any such thing exists, and that the price we all pay for the rapid cycle of innovation we enjoy is that things change a lot. From my perspective as someone who hopped on board this train in 1986, things have been changing and people have been grumbling about it for decades, but I don't see any difference in the legitimacy of those complaints versus the ones above.

Instant wireless synching that works? Backups that require no input from the user except when needed? Voice command that understands natural language? A four-year-old computer that runs faster and more efficiently now than when I bought it, so much so that I've been able to put off buying a replacement for over a year now? Smartphones and tablets that are truly beautiful and fun to use, that entice me to read for pleasure and enjoy incredibly elegant new experiences?

These are the days of miracle and wonder, to quote Paul Simon.


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## Tech Elementz (Mar 15, 2011)

jamesB said:


> As a hobbyist I always looked forward to the challenge, not for a way to be shielded from it.


Perhaps the challenge with OS X Lion is to get around the OS by trying to make it the most personalized for you. Although the Lion is mighty and tough in it's ways, it has changed quite a few things that people have not liked and have ranted about with Lion. However, the Snow Leopard 99% of Mac users love is still within Lion. You just have to find it within the Lion and trust yourself that Lion is still great. I believe this is the current challenge and you have not been shielded from it at all, it's just have not been clear enough to see.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

You also have to realize that you're in the minority. Most people want to buy a computer and use it and many of these changes make sense for them..

If you want a hobby you could try running a Linux box, or build a hackintosh. That requires a good amount of work....


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't recall any of this kind of complaints from ANY of the OS X releases, I've been using OS X since Jaguar for production. I was one of the early adopters in my field, and practically an evangelist about it.

I have a new HD for my MBP, and was waiting to determine whether I would move my SL install over to it, or, install lion on it, reinstall everything and test drive it for a period to experience it first hand. But it's unclear right now as out of probably about 20 or more production guys I've talked to, not one, likes lion whatsoever.

not one.

But I gotta ask, if people are still buying new macs for production, aren't they forced into using lion and how are they faring? I asked the question in the mac masters section looking for experiences using lion for work (NOT just email/browsing/hobby work, as in I used dreamweaver for my hobby site and it worked).


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

groovetube said:


> *I don't recall any of this kind of complaints from ANY of the OS X releases*, I've been using OS X since Jaguar for production. I was one of the early adopters in my field, and practically an evangelist about it.
> 
> I have a new HD for my MBP, and was waiting to determine whether I would move my SL install over to it, or, install lion on it, reinstall everything and test drive it for a period to experience it first hand. But it's unclear right now as out of probably about 20 or more production guys I've talked to, not one, likes lion whatsoever.
> 
> ...


To be honest groovetube, I heard complaints with 10.6 when it came out. Actually the same complaints. "Why can't Apple leave working things alone, if it worked before don't touch it."

It would be interesting to see, does this site go back to when 10.6 was released?


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Joker Eh said:


> To be honest groovetube, I heard complaints with 10.6 when it came out. Actually the same complaints. "Why can't Apple leave working things alone, if it worked before don't touch it."
> 
> It would be interesting to see, does this site go back to when 10.6 was released?


I didn't say there weren't complaints on each release. But never, have I ever seen a total agreement amongst everyone that lion is a dud like this. Most people I knew upgraded to SL pretty quickly, in fact all OS X releases. but not so with lion. I'm almost tempted to try it if only to confirm.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

groovetube said:


> I didn't say there weren't complaints on each release. But never, have I ever seen a total agreement amongst everyone that lion is a dud like this. Most people I knew upgraded to SL pretty quickly, in fact all OS X releases. but not so with lion. I'm almost tempted to try it if only to confirm.


There are some thing I don't like about Lion but nothing I can't live with or adjust to. The message box with a check box when shutting down each time is annoying as hell. And if you don't, opening up Safari it will remember the last page you were on, it is annoying even though my preference is set to a blank home page and to open all new pages with it. And also that finger swiping of pages in Mac App Store and iTunes is gone from Lion, that is also annoying.

Hmm, I just did allot of complaining. But I live with it.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> And if you don't opening up Safari and it remembering the last page you were on is also annoying even though my preference is set to a blank home page and to open all new pages with it.


System Prefs > General:


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Lars said:


> System Prefs > General:


Done that it still does it sometimes.

I brought my mac with me to work, so I thought I start it and show you. I'll create a separate post for other screenshots to show you.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Here is my safari prefs


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

And here is the stupid box when shutting down, that keeps asking you even though the general prefs say don't.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

And this is what happens when opening up safari after starting up my mac. It doesn't seem to matter what my prefs are set to.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> And this is what happens when opening up safari after starting up my mac. It doesn't seem to matter what my prefs are set to.


If the check box is checked off when you shut down your Mac ("Reopen windows when logging back in"), Safari will remember where it left off regardless of any other preferences you have set -- that's the key in your case. Either sleep the Mac (don't shut it down), or, when shutting it down or restarting it, uncheck that box.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

> But you know what? I think if you'll search your memories you will find that you guys said similarly-grumpy things about previous OS transitions. Maybe not you personally, but some of us do recall the WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH that greeted Snow Leopard, and Tiger, and OS X 10.0, and the transition to Intel ...


To be fair, I view OS 7.6, OS 9.2, OS 10.3.8 as the three best earlier systems that Apple created. Between these benchmarks Apple messed some things up in their never ending attempts to improve. 

Apple depends a very great deal on getting things out there then depending on user feedback to spot the flaws. Sometimes they respond, and sometimes irritants get overlooked in the rush to develop new features. One great example is colored file labels which disappeared with the introduction of OS X and stayed gone until Apple introduced the fourth generation of OS X (Panther). 

I like 10.4.11 where I am now, but found Spotlight did not always play nice with multiple external drives and partitions. A problem I brutally solved by disabling Spotlight altogether and using a pair of third party search engines along with the Terminal. Even with Spotlight enabled, Tigers search features are not nearly as elegant as Panthers. 

Later versions of OS X have been aimed mainly at getting the most from the newer MacIntel chips and have added a ton of bells and whistles. If I had to upgrade today it seems that Snow Leopard has the most to offer but so far I find nothing so compelling that I simply have to go out and buy a newer Mac. OTOH I am not trying to edit video files and really don't care about the choppy Flash videos on Youtube.

I happen to like finding a really good set-up that works for me, then staying there as long as I possibly can, but this is certainly not the best or even a viable solution for every Mac user.

*FWIW A bad Apple system is still a much better user experience than the very best that Windoze can put on the Desktop. I certainly have every confidence that Apple will once again find that near perfect combination but for some users at least, it seems that like OS 8.1, ... 9.1, and OS 10.0...10.2.8, Lion is just not the one. *


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Lars said:


> If the check box is checked off when you shut down your Mac ("Reopen windows when logging back in"), Safari will remember where it left off regardless of any other preferences you have set -- that's the key in your case. Either sleep the Mac (don't shut it down), or, when shutting it down or restarting it, uncheck that box.


But everytime I have to uncheck it. And then what is the point of the Safari prefs. This is one of the annoying aspects of Lion. Why do i have go and un check the box each time and click another button to shut down when I have already said shut down. And this happens even if I have no apps running.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

set your homepage to about: (don't forget the colon)


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

made no difference


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

I really like most of what is in Lion. I'm not at all a fan of the lack of a Save As option but its not that big a deal for me in how I use my Mac's.


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## andreww (Nov 20, 2002)

Personally I really like Lion. Been using it for months on my MBP and last week switched my work MacPro over. I am 100% with joker on the restore feature though. I use about 30 apps a day, and when I leave I'm usually in a hurry and neglect to uncheck that stupid restore button!!! Why isn't there a preference to turn that off completely?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> *I don't recall any of this kind of complaints from ANY of the OS X releases, I've been using OS X since Jaguar for production. I was one of the early adopters in my field, and practically an evangelist about it.*
> 
> I have a new HD for my MBP, and was waiting to determine whether I would move my SL install over to it, or, install lion on it, reinstall everything and test drive it for a period to experience it first hand. But it's unclear right now as out of probably about 20 or more production guys I've talked to, not one, likes lion whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Same here.


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## Chimpur (May 1, 2009)

I think people like us here on this forum are no longer Apples core target audience. Apple has moved on to the masses now. And even the mighty Apple can't please everybody. Especially us who are rather picky.

And that stupid restart prompt is really annoying. I ofteh just close the lid on my MBP instead of turn it off.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm on the fence here on lion. I might take one for the team and give it a go on the new drive, and see for myself. If lion could withstand the full brute force abuse I heap on a computer daily as snow leopard handles, then I'd say, I shut up. If I do, I'll post the impressions as someone who whallops this pretty shiny box daily with a crazy amount of programs, browsers, multiple OSs in vmware etc.

The truth is like someone else pointed out, windows isn't at the level of snow leopard, though windows 7 did make a real college try.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

slipstream said:


> Well, that's me. I'm new to Apple after many years of Windows frustrations, and very happy to be a productive "fsck'd ...iPhone -iPad-iPod weenie" with my iMac running Lion, my iPhone and my iPad. Oh, and my iPod.


That reference was toward Apple's management...not switchers or users.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Chimpur said:


> And that stupid restart prompt is really annoying. I ofteh just close the lid on my MBP instead of turn it off.


IMHO that's the crux of the matter right there. Lion ticked off a lot of establishment OSX users by changing the way it works day-to-day.

Now, I'm not saying that Apple's 100% right in this regard, but Apple is promoting batteries that work for 5+ hours and systems that stay asleep with minimal battery loss for weeks. You don't *need* to turn off your computer all the time. Just let it sleep or close the lid on your laptop. I'd be that 75%+ of Apple users don't mind/like the "resume" feature on shutdown. Especially when software updates require annoying restarts, etc... 

To say that Apple screwed the pooch by adding a new feature just 'cause it messes with your specific workflow is fine as a criticism for *your* use of Lion, but I'm not sure it holds up as a general criticism. 

So many little details of Lion are tweaked/fixed from SL, IMHO. Things like Airdrop, Gestures, the new Mail, Improved Spotlight and search tokens, Inline Quicklook in Spotlight, Drag and Drop from Spotlight, Double tap to zoom in Safari/Preview, Apple IDs to authenticate screen sharing, Find my Mac, Autocorrection, System-wide Dictionary, and Resize from any Edge are things I use daily and would sorely miss if I switched back to SL. But again, that's just my usage scenario.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

fyrefly said:


> IMHO that's the crux of the matter right there. Lion ticked off a lot of establishment OSX users by changing the way it works day-to-day.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that Apple's 100% right in this regard, but Apple is promoting batteries that work for 5+ hours and systems that stay asleep with minimal battery loss for weeks. You don't *need* to turn off your computer all the time. Just let it sleep or close the lid on your laptop. I'd be that 75%+ of Apple users don't mind/like the "resume" feature on shutdown. Especially when software updates require annoying restarts, etc...
> 
> ...


All things I would miss as well.

But sorry that little annoying shut down notice bothers me that each time I go to shut down I curse and say f*** y**. Ok maybe not everytime but most of the time I say. I sure hope it is a fix for 10.7.3. While I am at one place I always just close the lid on my MBP or just let it go to sleep on its own but when I am on the move and put my MBP in my bag I like to shut it down.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> > but when I am on the move and put my MBP in my bag I like to shut it down.


why?


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

And Apple releases 10.7.3 just now.



> ■Resolve a Wi-Fi connection issue when waking from sleep


 At least they fixed this.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

brilliant!


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

broad said:


> why?


well habit mostly and that is due to the fact (and nothing to do with an apple product) but once with a windows laptop I stuck into my bag an it overheated because something was running. And I also have a fear that while it is on the hd would get all messed up. I go bac to when you used ot have to lock the hard drive down before moving a computer, so it is just a habit.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

Joker Eh said:


> well habit mostly and that is due to the fact (and nothing to do with an apple product) but once with a windows laptop I stuck into my bag an it overheated because something was running. And I also have a fear that while it is on the hd would get all messed up. I go bac to when you used ot have to lock the hard drive down before moving a computer, so it is just a habit.


well the reality is that none of the things you're worried about are likely to happen. if they did it would be a one in a million shot. your hdd is just as safe while the machine is asleep as it would be with the machine off.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

broad said:


> why?


I'll tell you why... something in Lion (at least, my installation) is preventing Lion from sleeping when the lid is closed. The light comes on, fades out, and then rather than fade back up in the usual sleep pattern, immediately goes to full brightness, indicating that it's running. It will continue to go through this cycle... shutting off the HD and then springing back to life. After a few occasions of finding the laptop closed and unexpectedly warm, I clued in.

A restart clears it up - so some process that is being launched (either native to Lion or otherwise) is preventing sleep...


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

CubaMark said:


> I'll tell you why... something in Lion (at least, my installation) is preventing Lion from sleeping when the lid is closed. The light comes on, fades out, and then rather than fade back up in the usual sleep pattern, immediately goes to full brightness, indicating that it's running. It will continue to go through this cycle... shutting off the HD and then springing back to life. After a few occasions of finding the laptop closed and unexpectedly warm, I clued in.
> 
> A restart clears it up - so some process that is being launched (either native to Lion or otherwise) is preventing sleep...


Well that is enough for me to keep doing what I am doing.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> I'll tell you why... something in Lion (at least, my installation) is preventing Lion from sleeping when the lid is closed. The light comes on, fades out, and then rather than fade back up in the usual sleep pattern, immediately goes to full brightness, indicating that it's running. It will continue to go through this cycle... shutting off the HD and then springing back to life. After a few occasions of finding the laptop closed and unexpectedly warm, I clued in.
> 
> A restart clears it up - so some process that is being launched (either native to Lion or otherwise) is preventing sleep...


My 15" MBP did the same thing twice in the past month. With the release of 10.7.3 today, a fix is hopefully included. Its downloading now, so fingers crossed.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I'm half-wondering if it might be the resident program that isn't shut down after quitting HotSpot Shield, which I need to access some US-based content... will need to do some sleuthing. But first I'll try 10.7.3 to see if the culprit lies there...


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

OK, maybe I'm the minority here on ehMac, but I don't have any of these problems with Lion. And I don't really find it "iOS like*" or "dumbed down" either. Are things different? Sure. Are they worse? No. In fact, in most cases I think they're better. My productivity on my iMac has gone way up with the additional gestures, especially mission control (hated Exposé and spaces before) and the Back to my Mac features work a lot more reliably since the upgrade.

I can't be the only one, can I?? Oh, and while I don't know what you;re defining as "production" I'm a pretty heavy Aperture/Photoshop user, and it hasn't interfered with my workflow at all.


*with the exception of LaunchPad, but you that's an easy feature to ignore too.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

Why is it that nobody can explain why Lion is terrible when they rant? I haven't had any issues with mine, granted I don't use mine for work but use it for music, internet, Warcraft and photos and have had no complaints with Lion.

I see the odd issue with wifi and such but no real meat on why Lion is terrible. Maybe you are using it wrong? :lmao::lmao::lmao:


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

I, don't use it for any real intensive work-related stuff either, but I don't find any problems running everything I've got in Lion.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Reading through the posts, it seems Apple may have made a good OS to play on, but not to work. 

I may give it a go on a second drive, in an optibay. If it can survive me, it can survive anyone.


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## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

I am not interested in upgrading to Lion. I like the price, but there are no features that make the upgrade compelling for myself. When I get new a new mac and if it has Lion (could be the next one), I would be fine with it.

As for the "dumbing down" of the computer. I disagree. I like the fact that an OSX computer is "simpler" to use. I don't want to have to micromanage and spend time searching to adjust something simple or just to use my computer. I own both a mac and a PC, and to get things done, I would turn to my mac. I find it sad when windows computer users complain about how macs are toys because they are not complicated to use. When I am preforming a task, the less hoops I have to jump though the better, something that just works is something better than constantly tweaking just to do the same task but slower. The same complaint about OSX being a toy is the same thing Linux users say to windows users. I guess is the superior feeling one gets when they can perform a simple task in more steps. 

I do have a question though. How is the software compatibility with Lion. I know and understand why there were issues with Leopard > Snow Leopard, but is the snow leopard software more compatible with Lion? I had heard there were quite a few issues. If there does indeed to be some issues with software compatibility, whether it is the fault of Apple or the software producer, this problem of software breaking every release is something I would like to see fixed.


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## Chas3 (Jul 14, 2007)

OS X Lion is the perfect operating system for my 11" Macbook Air, as all I use it for is browsing, email, and occasionally a photo viewer. I do any real work on my pc, as I built it for that purpose.

Lion is designed as a Laptop OS


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## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

PosterBoy said:


> OK, maybe I'm the minority here on ehMac, but I don't have any of these problems with Lion. And I don't really find it "iOS like*" or "dumbed down" either. Are things different? Sure. Are they worse? No. In fact, in most cases I think they're better. My productivity on my iMac has gone way up with the additional gestures, especially mission control (hated Exposé and spaces before) and the Back to my Mac features work a lot more reliably since the upgrade.
> 
> I can't be the only one, can I?? Oh, and while I don't know what you;re defining as "production" I'm a pretty heavy Aperture/Photoshop user, and it hasn't interfered with my workflow at all.
> 
> ...


totally in agreement, haven't had issues and I've adapted well and LOVE mission control instead of exposé...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I'm not a Lion hater... I embrace change. But I don't think that talking about the bugs we've encountered, seemingly counterproductive changes in application / OS behaviour and overall weirdness counts as ranting.

Here's an example of some weirdness - watching an embedded video in a webpage. This "split screen" happened when I clicked the full screen option for the video. ESCaping out of it and trying again wouldn't fix it. It may be a bug in the webpage code, or who knows what... but these sorts of things didn't happen under 10.6.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

ertman said:


> I am not interested in upgrading to Lion. I like the price, but there are no features that make the upgrade compelling for myself. When I get new a new mac and if it has Lion (could be the next one), I would be fine with it.
> 
> As for the "dumbing down" of the computer. I disagree. I like the fact that an OSX computer is "simpler" to use. I don't want to have to micromanage and spend time searching to adjust something simple or just to use my computer. I own both a mac and a PC, and to get things done, I would turn to my mac. I find it sad when windows computer users complain about how macs are toys because they are not complicated to use. When I am preforming a task, the less hoops I have to jump though the better, something that just works is something better than constantly tweaking just to do the same task but slower. The same complaint about OSX being a toy is the same thing Linux users say to windows users. I guess is the superior feeling one gets when they can perform a simple task in more steps.
> 
> I do have a question though. How is the software compatibility with Lion. I know and understand why there were issues with Leopard > Snow Leopard, but is the snow leopard software more compatible with Lion? I had heard there were quite a few issues. If there does indeed to be some issues with software compatibility, whether it is the fault of Apple or the software producer, this problem of software breaking every release is something I would like to see fixed.


By software, I'm assuming you mean third party software? (The way your question is worded is confusing - asking if "snow leopard software (is)more compatible with Lion") With Lion, all of your software must be Intel or Universal. No PPC or Classic applications will run on Lion. There is no Rosetta. So, while Snow Leopard requires an Intel processor, Lion requires both an Intel Processor and all-Intel/Universal apps. To see which of your applications will require updating, go to "About this Mac" ->more info->Software->Applications and look at the chart under "Kind."


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

CubaMark said:


> I'm not a Lion hater... I embrace change. But I don't think that talking about the bugs we've encountered, seemingly counterproductive changes in application / OS behaviour and overall weirdness counts as ranting.
> 
> Here's an example of some weirdness - watching an embedded video in a webpage. This "split screen" happened when I clicked the full screen option for the video. ESCaping out of it and trying again wouldn't fix it. It may be a bug in the webpage code, or who knows what... but these sorts of things didn't happen under 10.6.


I hate to tell you, Mark, but that split screen in full screen mode happens on that article in 10.6 on Safari too. I found the article and tried it.

GM Releases New 2012 Chevy Volt Ad, Airs It First On Fox, Its Foe

It works fine in Firefox and in Chrome. It's a SAFARI problem (or more likely, a coding issue that FF & Chrome overlook) NOT a Lion problem! 

For the record, I've been running Lion on my MacBook Pro for months now. While it's not my primary work machine, I have done some work on it (InDesign, Photoshop) and haven't encountered a single problem. I haven't updated my Mac Pro yet - first because my X-Rite colour calibration software wasn't available for Lion until Dec., and since then, simply because I haven't had the time. This Mac is loaded with all sorts of legacy apps (most of which I never use) that need to be removed and I'd really like to do some serious housecleaning and tidying up before I do the upgrade. Between that and not wanting to do an upgrade in the middle of work projects (never a good idea, no matter how bulletproof the OS), I haven't gotten there. I will though - I haven't seen anything scary enough to give me pause. Lion Tweaks gets around the only things that really bug me...

I've seen a lot of moaning from people in this thread, but few, if any, specific complaints, so I admit to being a bit puzzled as to _why_ all the complaining. BTW - if you don't think people moaned about Leopard and Tiger and Panther...just try Googling "I hate Leopard" or "I hate Tiger" etc. You'll get the picture.


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## OldeBullDust (Aug 22, 2010)

ertman said:


> I am not interested in upgrading to Lion. I like the price, but there are no features that make the upgrade compelling for myself. When I get new a new mac and if it has Lion (could be the next one), I would be fine with it.
> 
> As for the "dumbing down" of the computer. I disagree. I like the fact that an OSX computer is "simpler" to use. I don't want to have to micromanage and spend time searching to adjust something simple or just to use my computer. I own both a mac and a PC, and to get things done, I would turn to my mac. I find it sad when windows computer users complain about how macs are toys because they are not complicated to use. When I am preforming a task, the less hoops I have to jump though the better, something that just works is something better than constantly tweaking just to do the same task but slower. The same complaint about OSX being a toy is the same thing Linux users say to windows users. I guess is the superior feeling one gets when they can perform a simple task in more steps.
> 
> I do have a question though. How is the software compatibility with Lion. I know and understand why there were issues with Leopard > Snow Leopard, but is the snow leopard software more compatible with Lion? I had heard there were quite a few issues. If there does indeed to be some issues with software compatibility, whether it is the fault of Apple or the software producer, this problem of software breaking every release is something I would like to see fixed.


I don’t consider myself a expert on OSX or Lion specifically.. I haven’t installed it or even downloaded it for reasons I’ve described in a previous post. So I really can’t criticize it.

However I was quite surprised by the number of strong feelings expressed about Lion and Apples’ supposed “agenda” in making OSX more iOS like. 
I was sure that this was a rather unique/over-the-top reaction to a new version of OSX

Until I bumped into a copy of a review by Oliver Rist on eWEEK.com (Dated 2007-11-29 Full story on PCMag.com.) It seems that it’s really not all that unusual for a new OSX to be greeted with less than enthusiasm. In part he wrote;

“Opinion: Before Apple makes any more smug OS-related attacks on Microsoft, it ought to take a good look in the mirror.
Im not sure what ticks me off more about Leoptard (I cant take credit for that nickname—some Brit coined it): the fact that so many of the semi-important changes dont work, the fact that Apple turned a stable OS into a crash-happy glitz fest, ...
... Its not better than Vista. Leopard is Vista. And Tiger is better than both of them!”

Maybe we don’t always like too much change.

( That being said, I still plan on staying with Snow Leopard - for now)


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

I don't think it has anything to do with us not liking change. More that Apple constantly breaks things and makes things worse. Their dev team, QA, etc are missing crucial bugs, or maybe they know they're there but just don't give a crap. But they just seem to make things worse with every new version, and we have to sit and wait for them to SLOWLY fix the issues. Usually by the time a new version is out, is the time most of the bugs are worked out with the previous version, and it starts all over again.

- Why do I have to wait for Safari to re-render a page when I go back or forward a page? Sometimes 5-6 seconds before I can interact with a page... or sometimes I'm met with a white page and I have to reload for the content to show up again.

- Why can't I use 2 finger swipe to navigate forwards and backwards in Finder windows anymore?

- Why can't I have Widgets on the main screen anymore? Every time I want to use the Calculator, I have to swipe from screen to screen more than a few times because I can't see the numbers I'm using to calculate (usually from a webpage or note).

Those are the biggest issues that drive me nuts right now. Oh, and I never restart or shutdown anymore if it can be avoided, because it takes 15-20 minutes to be able to use my computer properly once I do. Last weekend I plugged my MBP into my TV, picture wouldn't show up. Had to restart, and again, and again, and shut down completely, boot up, finally after about 20 minutes of hair pulling I got it to work..... extremely frustrating.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Paddy said:


> I hate to tell you, Mark, but that split screen in full screen mode happens on that article in 10.6 on Safari too. I found the article and tried it.
> 
> GM Releases New 2012 Chevy Volt Ad, Airs It First On Fox, Its Foe
> 
> ...


As was mentioned earlier, I never saw the level of moaning about previous os x releases as I have with lion. I'll find out soon enough I suppose, but the trepidation with upgrading, the number of people rolling back is waaay higher in the work/pro field than any os release I can recall, by far.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Paddy said:


> I hate to tell you, Mark, but that split screen in full screen mode happens on that article in 10.6 on Safari too. I found the article and tried it.


Thanks, Paddy - I was wrong to assume it was a Lion-specific issue (and too lazy to fire up my old MacBook to test it out under 10.6.8).


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

groovetube said:


> As was mentioned earlier, I never saw the level of moaning about previous os x releases as I have with lion. I'll find out soon enough I suppose, but the trepidation with upgrading, the number of people rolling back is waaay higher in the work/pro field than any os release I can recall, by far.


Jaguar and earlier versions of OS X had the OS X two step where all the things one did on a routine basis seemed to take an extra step. That and the balky trash issue which still seems to make an occasional comeback in this forum.

Early Panther updates caused some real issues with external drives, if one was careless enough to leave them hooked up while running updates.

Early Tiger had some major Spotlight headaches, mostly resolved by version 10.4.4. Also had the unexpected double reboots that seemed to be part of every update. Would have really helped if Apple had thrown in a dialog box warning that the reboot would seemingly take an eternity and be then interrupted by another reboot.

Certainly I can recall reading about several teething issues with TimeMachine in Leopard and Snow Leopard but otherwise these two seemed to go much more smoothly than any OS shift other than OS 9.2x and Panther.

Biggest issue dating back as far as I can remember to the present day, is Apple's persistant underestimation of the RAM requirements.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

eMacMan said:


> Jaguar and earlier versions of OS X had the OS X two step where all the things one did on a routine basis seemed to take an extra step. That and the balky trash issue which still seems to make an occasional comeback in this forum.
> 
> Early Panther updates caused some real issues with external drives, if one was careless enough to leave them hooked up while running updates.
> 
> ...


I didn't say there weren't issues. There were plenty. 

I remember slapping the panther update over top a Jaguar install, and picking up like nothing happened.

Try that now!


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## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

kloan said:


> - Why can't I have Widgets on the main screen anymore? Every time I want to use the Calculator, I have to swipe from screen to screen more than a few times because I can't see the numbers I'm using to calculate (usually from a webpage or note).



Check your Sys prefs -> Mission Control and uncheck "Dashboard as a separate space". At least that problem is easily solved


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

kloan said:


> - Why can't I have Widgets on the main screen anymore? Every time I want to use the Calculator, I have to swipe from screen to screen more than a few times because I can't see the numbers I'm using to calculate (usually from a webpage or note).


This bugged me too and is easily remedied.

Go to System Preferences --> Mission Control. The first checkbox is "show Dashboard as a space" and uncheck that.

EDIT: Just saw Patrix already posted this. 



kloan said:


> Oh, and I never restart or shutdown anymore if it can be avoided, because it takes 15-20 minutes to be able to use my computer properly once I do. Last weekend I plugged my MBP into my TV, picture wouldn't show up. Had to restart, and again, and again, and shut down completely, boot up, finally after about 20 minutes of hair pulling I got it to work..... extremely frustrating.


How is that possible? The re-opening of a million programs?? Even on my non SSD machines Lion starts up at least as fast if not faster than SL did.


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## biovizier (Dec 21, 2005)

jamesB said:


> --short rant---Lion, the end of my Apple affiliation. begin rant-- ...
> --end of rant--





steviewhy said:


> ...Lion has become the OS that Windows users can now rightfully claim that Mac's are toys made for idiots as they always have


I share these sentiments.

I have a 2011 Mini and while I do have 10.6 on a separate partition, I have been trying to give Lion a chance for the past couple of months. But I have to say I don't like it. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's unusable, but I find many aspects irritating. It's much like Windows to the extent that yes, I could use it all day if I had to, but its idiosyncracies make it unpleasant.

To make it somewhat bearable, I'm using the 10.6 versions of TextEdit.app, Preview.app and AddressBook.app, and made use of whatever tweaks I could find on the web with 'defaults' commands, etc. but even after all of that, and despite the fact that I think there have been some actual improvements in Lion, overall I still consider it to be a downgrade.

Top issues for me:

Being limited to a linear Spaces layout.
Sidebar (drab icons, doesn't respect a user's own custom icons, removable disks on the bottom)
No arrows on scroll bars.

…and the one that irritates me most:
Text search terms are no longer independent between different programmes -- search for a word in one app, and anything you may have been searching for in another app is replaced. Seriously, who is the moron that came up with that one? This one first reared its ugly head in Leopard and more and it has been incorporated into more programmes with each new OS X.

Note that these aren't bugs. They are design choices that limit productivity and are (in my opinion) idiotic.

I have an exit plan and it is already in motion -- I got me a matte screen NEC display, and a netbook with Linux to learn the ropes. Though Apple will hardly miss it, I went from a top of the line iMac to a Mini so you could say the recent OS X trend has already lost them $1000+ of my cash.

Whether or not my next major computer purchase will be a Mac will be up to Apple. If they realize that people may not want to pay computer prices and be stuck with a toy OS GUI, then I'll happily buy a Mac. I'll say it again though -- as of right now, Lion at home irritates me about as much as Windows does at work, and from the perspective of a Mac user, recent versions of eg. Ubuntu aren't all that hard to get used to.

For me, for the first time in almost 20 years as a Mac user, Apple is no longer the obvious choice.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

patrix said:


> Check your Sys prefs -> Mission Control and uncheck "Dashboard as a separate space". At least that problem is easily solved


Hey, whaddya know?! Thanks.. I Google'd this before and never found anything.

Glad to have it back to normal.



fyrefly said:


> How is that possible? The re-opening of a million programs?? Even on my non SSD machines Lion starts up at least as fast if not faster than SL did.


Wish I could tell you. It literally can take up to 20 minutes after a restart for my computer to function properly. Most times it won't boot at all if I restart, I actually have to force shut down from the restart and wait for it to boot.. even then it's hit and miss. Once the desktop finally loads, it still sometimes gets choked and I have to shut down again and wait for everything to load.

I always be sure to uncheck the box that says to reload all running programs, so it's not that... and I only have 2 start up items, gfxCardStatus and Gmail.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

Kloan, even my creaky old MacBook Pro (2.33 GHz C2D from 2007, with 3 GB of usable RAM) doesn't take anywhere near that long, or fail to restart. Something is wrong.

Have you run DU? Or DiskWarrior? Started up off a clone to see if the same issues persist?

I'd try a nuke and pave if none of the above show any problems/cure the problem. That is definitely NOT normal 10.7 behavior, or we'd all be screaming blue murder.  (even those of us who are happy with OS 10.7!)

What hardware do you have, BTW? It's helpful if you add that info to your profile.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Have tried the clean install, have run DU several times.

Hardware is early 2011 15" Macbook Pro, i7 2.2, 8GB ram, toshiba 750 5400 rpm hdd.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I decided to time my 2007 BlackBook running Lion after reading this.

Time from cold boot to login screen: 20 seconds.
Time from login screen to everything completely functional: 60 seconds.

To put it mildly, your results are atypical. You could actually test this by going to the local Apple dealer and asking them to reboot any of their machines.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

A SSD really changes that. My 2011 MBP i7 with a 480GB SSD time from cold boot to fully functional and ready to go with Mail, Safari, Pages and RapidWeaver open is 18 seconds.


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

Yep, OS X is no longer a production/work OS. It's been relegated to 'web' duties only, everything else is done in Win7/64, even moved over to Premiere CS5 to accommodate. I still like their laptop designs so I use MBP's running in various config's, one boots Win7 only.

Sorry to say, Lion is Apple's Vista, seems everyone I know who owns commercial printing shops or video/photography businesses has kept it off their machines. One shop actually dumped their Mac's completely last month, 12 machines in total gone, and they were rabid Mac-fanz.

Not sure what they were thinking with Lion, clearly they are going in a direction that seems to be totally targeting mobile users and almost abandoning production/professional people. Guess they figure this is where the money is. I personally don't care, computers are tools for me, it was just nice not having to jump back and forth, but there's no way you let a M$ play online anymore..... noooooo lol. So I'll keep one running some form of Apple OS just for that purpose.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I saw a really well known web dev guy who travels a lot around the country speaking just screaming on twitter about lion. I just don't get this. I was hoping to hear good reports after .3

Ticking off devs is not, a good thing.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

kloan said:


> Have tried the clean install, have run DU several times.
> 
> Hardware is early 2011 15" Macbook Pro, i7 2.2, 8GB ram, toshiba 750 5400 rpm hdd.


Is it safe to say kloan you have a hardware issue?

My late 2010 MBP with Lion takes about 60 sec from startup to ready to use.

SINC, i would have thought (not that I have one) that with a SSD and i7 that 18 seconds was slow. Just my perception, i would have thought it was faster than that. I was thinking of upgrading my MBP.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

I've known from the get-go that I wanted/needed an SSD in this machine.

It's just a matter of being able to afford one.... I don't want to get a budget drive, I want a good one.. and it has to be at the very least 128GB. I think those are still a bit out of my price range unfortunately.

If/when I do it, I'd like to get one of those kits that converts the optical bay into another drive so that I'll still have plenty of on-board storage, as I'm already using around 350GB right now.

60 seconds is still too slow. For me, SL only took around 45 seconds.


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## tdu (Sep 15, 2008)

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> Why is it that nobody can explain why Lion is terrible when they rant? I haven't had any issues with mine, granted I don't use mine for work but use it for music, internet, Warcraft and photos and have had no complaints with Lion.
> 
> I see the odd issue with wifi and such but no real meat on why Lion is terrible. Maybe you are using it wrong? :lmao::lmao::lmao:


While I have some issues with usability of the OS, my main issue with it 'was' wi-fi issues. I bought a brand new 27" iMac a few months ago, and was having constant Wi-Fi drops outs. I has to manually connect every couple of minutes. I have another Mac with Snow Lion, the Apple TV, a Windows 7 machine, and my iPhone all using the same network with no issues whatsoever.

So, I make my way to the Apple support forums where there are threads hundreds of posts long about people with the same issue. People with brand new Mac's who had these problems from the get go are being told at Apple Stores that the problem is based on the them 'fudging settings'. They get the machines running on the Apple Store network, then send the user home where they continue to have the same issues with other networks.

I managed to get the problem resolved after trying a dozen fixes online. And I should mention, a Google search brings up tons of mention of the problem. But, a lot of other people who managed to fix the problem had the problem return after the 10.7.3. update. So now I am not running that update in case the problem returns.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

kloan said:


> I've known from the get-go that I wanted/needed an SSD in this machine.
> 
> It's just a matter of being able to afford one.... I don't want to get a budget drive, I want a good one.. and it has to be at the very least 128GB. I think those are still a bit out of my price range unfortunately.
> 
> ...


why is boot time a factor for you? do you need to turn your computer on and off daily?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Joker Eh said:


> SINC, i would have thought (not that I have one) that with a SSD and i7 that 18 seconds was slow. Just my perception, i would have thought it was faster than that. I was thinking of upgrading my MBP.


Your post prompted me to time it a few times. It is as fast as 14 seconds at times, but never any longer than 18 seconds. Not sure if drive size makes a difference, but mine is not a 128 GB rather it is a 480 GB.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

broad said:


> why is boot time a factor for you? do you need to turn your computer on and off daily?


+1. I just don't get it. How often is one having to cold boot??

And a 15 second difference is the margin for acceptable or not?? Like really???


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

I'm still confused as to how Lion is so fundamentally different than Snow Leopard that people would abandon the platform. How is it "not a production OS"? How is it "web only"? It seems like you might be looking at the shiny new surface that Apple is advertising and not realizing that it has the same depths it always did.


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## OldeBullDust (Aug 22, 2010)

PosterBoy said:


> I'm still confused as to how Lion is so fundamentally different than Snow Leopard.....


@ PosterBoy 	I don’t know why others are so opposed to Lion, but I can give you a short list of why I have not yet moved to Lion.

I should say first that I don’t think I’m quite the “Typical” Mac user (if there is such a thing), I have my own peculiar methods/style & my computing environment is quite “Rural”.
For example I shut-down each and every night - why? Our local power supply is prone to interruptions - sometime several rapid stop/starts which can and does cause electronic devices to hibernate until turned off & unplugged for a few minutes - used to mess up my old IIFX completely (Yes, I now have UPS systems)

Anyway, back to the point at hand, I haven’t installed Lion yet because

• Must download the Lion install, and at 3.77GB it would just take hours to download.
 Lack of physical media - I understand it is possible to create your own, but you have to have it to begin with. 
Yes, I could buy the USB stick - but I’d be back to the download problem with the “Recovery” feature

 • Reverse scrolling - I would definitely change that

• Lack of Save & Save As - Big No no there - when working on a drawing/brochure I save frequently, save a daily alternate version and sometimes just create several alternates - with descriptive names to aid searching for a particular image. 
It’s my method and I’m not interested in changing it now.

• Mission Control, Launch Pad, Exposé, Spaces, Full Screen - not interested, 
 I have an alias of the applications folder on my Dock - I can see all my apps 
Besides the Apps that I use most are already on my dock and a very seldom have more than two open at any one time.

• Resume - not likely - If I should need to open yesterdays work - there is a “Open Recent” button for that or more likely I’ll click on the required file - and the app opens
Most times I’m starting a new page/drawing/project

• Airdrop - no need

• The Cloud - never!

I could go on But you get the picture. I don’t think Lion is terrible, it just doesn’t have a compelling feature I can’t live without. For now I don’t need 10.7 with features I won’t use or turn off to match the OS I already have.

And I run CS3, so I’m also concerned about Lion not playing nice with apps which are essential to me.

_____________________

_I feel as if I’m diagonally parked in a parallel universe_


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## darkscot (Nov 13, 2003)

totally agree with the above. Lion doesn't sell itself to me and my experience on it has been awful. I've reinstalled and it's still crappy and buggy. Wish I'd stuck with Snow Leopard.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I am no big fan of the changes in Lion, but I did a nuke and pave and all that bugginess is long gone. It is now stable and I am as productive with it as SL before it. That noted, I despise having to undo scrolling, locked files etc. to have an enjoyable user experience. And don't get me started about auto save. If you don't remember to duplicate a file before you begin work on it, all is lost with that stupid auto save bit combined with the loss of 'save as'. All that extra work is silly when it was so easy in SL. Whoever the idiot is at Apple that came up with that idea is, well, an idiot.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Finally have a 128GB SSD on the way. Now I just have to decide if I'm going to install SL or Lion... since my latest TM backup is of Lion, at this point I think it'd be much less of a headache to just stick with it.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

Do remember that the AutoSave/Version thing only applies to Apple's own applications at this time. Whether outfits like Adobe will choose to go that route is something you'd have to ask them. However, my bet would be that they won't, simply because if they do, there would be a major difference in the basic functionality of their apps on different platforms. They'd also have a whole boatload of VERY unhappy professional users who'd likely be a lot more vocal than people using Pages and TextEdit, which typically aren't used in a professional environment to the same degree that InDesign, Photoshop etc. are.

And maybe if enough people complain, Apple will put it back and enable the option to turn AutoSave/Version off. Certainly worth a try - doing nothing but complain here won't do a darn thing... 

Apple - Mac OS X - Feedback


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

SINC said:


> That noted, I despise having to undo scrolling, locked files etc. to have an enjoyable user experience.


I've mentioned my experience with scrolling, it was the same as yours -- until I took a moment, decided to give it an open-minded try and stuck with it for like 15-20 minutes. Haven't looked back. YMMV, but as I say I *hated* it originally. There have been several times where I've heard people say exactly the same thing about some new thing (iMovie, iCloud and Final Cut Pro X spring to mind). Ask them a year later and its ALWAYS a different tune.



> And don't get me started about auto save. If you don't remember to duplicate a file before you begin work on it, all is lost with that stupid auto save bit combined with the loss of 'save as'.


Um, no.

Either the file is locked (meaning you haven't worked on it in a while) and you CAN'T overwrite it so you do a Duplicate ... OR

The file isn't locked but has auto-save and so the scenario you mention could happen ... BUT

You appear to be forgetting that any Apple app that has auto-save ALSO has versions, so you can easily and quickly go "back in time" to the unaltered version or any change inbetween the moment you opened it and now.

In truth, the "new system" requires EXACTLY one extra (trivial) click in order to work the same as the old system AND guarantees no data loss. IMHO, that's a very fair trade-off that's far more elegantly implemented that the previous (risky) system. But it does require putting aside the "it was better the old way" mentality and giving it a chance.

Which, I want to quickly add, I'm not saying you're generally like (I think you've proven you are generally a broad-minded guy). Just in this particular case maybe not as much as usual.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Well chas_m, none of my files are locked any more. I disabled that function entirely as it was an annoyance with no benefit to me I could tell. I do try and embrace the new, but some days Apple makes it very hard and leaves few hints that such things as 'versions' are even available. I see a save a version command now that you mention it, but have no idea how it works. If it works like I think it does, then my guess is that it creates extra files taking up extra space on my drive, non? Most files I lose have been created days before and a single mistaken keystroke erases them entirely due to autosave. That is what frustrates me. I then have to connect my external and go looking for the file in Time Machine.


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## Silv (Mar 28, 2008)

For some reason my Lion computers don't play nice with my ReadyNAS Pro. Copying files around, it hangs and shuts off my network interfaces after about 200-300mb of file transfers. Smaller file transfers don't have this problem.

I was using the ReadyNAS as my Time Machine disk, so every now and then if the incrementals were large it would break my computer, forcing a reboot.

Since going back to Snow Leopard, I've had no problems whatsoever.


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## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

I am not using Lion, because:
* it would break my CS2 and some games
* Aperture 3 already has Full Screen, and that's the only app I use that needs it
* I use Chrome and see no reason to use Safari
* I have various plugins and things like that and who knows whether they'll get broken
* I have no use for Resume or restoring windows, since I would prefer to leave all applications open all the time, and never Shutdown.
* I see myself using my home computer less over time, not more ... I would rather pay for a phone upgrade
* Snow Leopard is very stable, and Time Machine works just fine in it
* The Finder has been just fine for several versions now
* If Snow Leopard updates stop coming, and the latest version of Chrome no longer runs on it, I can always switch to Linux.

Now, if Apple wants me to buy OS X 10.8, they should reinstate Rosetta and add Blu Ray support


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Silv said:


> For some reason my Lion computers don't play nice with my ReadyNAS Pro. Copying files around, it hangs and shuts off my network interfaces after about 200-300mb of file transfers. Smaller file transfers don't have this problem.
> 
> I was using the ReadyNAS as my Time Machine disk, so every now and then if the incrementals were large it would break my computer, forcing a reboot.
> 
> Since going back to Snow Leopard, I've had no problems whatsoever.



Maybe everything will be fixed if you ever go with Lion later on:

Troubleshooting Mac OS X Lion's NAS Problems | PCMag.com
ReadyNAS Time Machine support for Mac OS X Lion : the last place on the net


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## Silv (Mar 28, 2008)

pm-r said:


> Maybe everything will be fixed if you ever go with Lion later on:
> 
> Troubleshooting Mac OS X Lion's NAS Problems | PCMag.com
> ReadyNAS Time Machine support for Mac OS X Lion : the last place on the net


Yes, I'm on the latest revision of Raidiator, but still, it's not working. 

That's fine - I like the way SL works better than Lion anyways..


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

To me Versions violates the basic Mac rule of intuitive computing. Save-as gives you an original version and a modified version. Auto-save without remembering to save a new version, overwrites the original even though that may not be the users intent. While Versions may be appealing from an eye candy point of view it is not really an improvement.


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## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> To me Versions violates the basic Mac rule of intuitive computing. Save-as gives you an original version and a modified version. Auto-save without remembering to save a new version, overwrites the original even though that may not be the users intent. While Versions may be appealing from an eye candy point of view it is not really an improvement.


but auto-save doesn't really overwrite an old version without user intent, since the old versions are ALSO saved and you can always go back to it.

random thought:
I think autosave/versions *may* be intuitive if you never learned the habit of the current save/save as mechanism. So for people like us it's not as intuitive... Maybe for the people who will be our age in 10 years it'll be intuitive (and they'll be complaining about something else).

Time will tell though


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## OldeBullDust (Aug 22, 2010)

@ patrix
Perhaps you can help me out here, since I do not have/use Lion, don't know exactly how all the "features" work.

How often does Autosave save a file? Is the interval adjustable? could I set it to once a day?
What happens to all the saved files? does it over-write the previous save?

If you have multiple saved files, are they numbered or time stamped and do they all remain viable after you shut down the program?

I ask because in working for a client building a large series of new images in illustrator - many layers, many blends, and each image is approximately 18 MB. In the process we have preliminary images, revised images and final approved images.
I don't keep multiple revised files - just one file which contains all the revisions - keeping track of the "correct" file is difficult enough.

At the moment we are just under a GB of data and we still have much more to do.

I wonder, just how big a collection would I have if AutoSave had followed its default settings. 10x?

How many more files would I have if versions was enabled?

I'm not trying to put you down or be a smart ass, I just don't know.

___________________
_I always try to be modest, and be proud of it!_


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Me too. I have no idea how versions works or how to use it or how to go back and get something if I need it. An explanation by someone who uses this to their advantage would be appreciated. As far as I can tell, I only have one copy of a Pages text file and I cannot find any previous file to it even after I change something in the current file.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

In applications that are enabled for versions, under the FILE menu you have a new command, "Revert Document..." which brings up a Time Machine-like interface with access to previous versions.


_(image courtesy of Mac20q.com)_


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> In applications that are enabled for versions, under the FILE menu you have a new command, "Revert Document..." which brings up a Time Machine-like interface with access to previous versions.
> 
> 
> _(image courtesy of Mac20q.com)_


Again completely counter intuitive as revert traditionally means to go back to the point at which the document was opened. Perhaps calling the command "Step back" would give users some clue as to what to expect. 

Assuming the user has not been saving versions along the way, does the revert command then work in the more traditional manner? It would at least allow someone to close an auto-save document without saving unwanted changes.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Thanks CM, knowing that will save me a lot of time when I make an error and everything disappears. Now my question becomes, where is all that info stored and how much extra disk space does it eat up?


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

First off, despite what I posted earlier, there persists some confusion, apparently. Autosave and versions ONLY work in applications from Apple that are enabled to use them. They don't work in anything from Adobe or Microsoft or any third party (that I know of) YET. As I noted earlier, I'd be a little surprised if Adobe ever put it into their apps as that would make the Windows and Mac versions significantly different. MS already has an autosave option (which is not the same as versions) but again, may not enable this. So, OldeBullDust, I don't think you really need to worry about how this might impact your work in Illustrator. 

The basics on how AutoSave and Versions work:
OS X Lion: About Auto Save and Versions

A bit more info and tips:
How OS X Lion helps keep your files safe | News | TechRadar

ArsTechnica review and explanation from their exhaustive Lion review:
Mac OS X 10.7 Lion: the Ars Technica review

Versions - and the space it takes up (minimal - it's only saving the chunks that actually change) 
Mac OS X Lion file versions, part 2 | Tech, TeX and Theory

Hope that helps everyone understand what it does and how it does it. It is a different way of working, to be sure, but it definitely has some advantages. I'd still like the "Save As" option back, as it's easier than the Duplicate two-step, but it's not huge. 

In fact, 10 pages into this thread I've yet to read anything that would convince me that Lion was a disaster. There are some glitches, and definitely some things that take some getting used to, but all-out, OMG it doesn't work...? Nope. 

I can understand those who don't feel the need to update because there aren't any features in Lion that they're interested in - that's happened with every single version of the Mac OS since time began! But saying that "everyone in my industry thinks it sucks" doesn't convince me of anything - WHY do they think it sucks and where is your actual evidence of insurmountable issues? Mostly it's a lot of wringing of hands over really small things. 

As I've said, I've got Lion installed on my 5-year old MBP, which works pretty well, despite the fact that it's so old that it can only access 3GB of RAM. I've used it for work - updated web sites, work in Photoshop & Lightroom and InDesign, plus all the usual mail, browsing, MS Office etc. No issues. I'll update this Mac Pro when I get the time to do some serious tidying first. Right now I've got too much work to take that time. I've spent a lot of time looking for any issues with Lion that would actually impede my workflow or cause headaches. The last of them disappeared in December when XRite finally got around to releasing the updated software for my colour calibrator. Now if someone would just give me oh...an extra 50 hours a week...


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## OldeBullDust (Aug 22, 2010)

I think this situation may, in part, answer the question of why so many users are “unhappy” with Lion.

The operating system has changed, our methods / practiced routine disrupted, and we have no real explanation as to why or even a clear explanation of what does what. We are left to our own devices to route out how to use the new “features”.

It’s brake repair by trial and error!

The complexity of OSX and the lack of clear concise instruction has made computing less intuitive and more frustrating. I’ve read through many user comments here and on Apple’s forums, and while I have learned valuable tips, I still find it very difficult to get a solid, detailed, understanding of how the operating system works. 

I guess I’ll end up buying yet another of David Pogues’ books


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Wait. I'm confused--let me clarify.

Is it getting simpler, or more complex?


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## OldeBullDust (Aug 22, 2010)

Thanks Paddy, those are very valuable links - although I don't know how you found them all, I looked at the Apple sites and missed their explanation. I read read Ars Technica and I missed it also.

I'll take a while for this old head to come to grips with all the details, but it will at least remove some of the mystery.

________________

_He who laughs last thinks slowest_


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

OldeBullDust said:


> Thanks Paddy, those are very valuable links - although I don't know how you found them all, I looked at the Apple sites and missed their explanation. I read read Ars Technica and I missed it also.
> 
> I'll take a while for this old head to come to grips with all the details, but it will at least remove some of the mystery.


Google is my friend. (most of the time)


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## Dennis Nedry (Sep 20, 2007)

[deleted]


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Paddy said:


> As I've said, I've got Lion installed on my 5-year old MBP, which works pretty well, despite the fact that it's so old that it can only access 3GB of RAM. I've used it for work - updated web sites, work in Photoshop & Lightroom and InDesign, plus all the usual mail, browsing, MS Office etc. No issues.


I could have written this myself, except its a BlackBook and I don't do much web work.


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## sheamus (May 20, 2010)

*Sucks*: Versions, Restore Windows, lame abook textures, all my files, launcher, reverse scrolling
*Never use:* iCloud stuff, or find my mac, or air drop, spotlight improvements, customize prefs panel, mission control
*Stuff I like*: Mail is great, app store is nice, full screen is nice -especially for VM's as they get their own desktop, like being able to finally resize windows

Not a comprehensive list, but I just google new Lion features, and this is what I came up with. 

_My biggest gripe is how slow Lion is_. On a i7 with 8GB RAM, I get a beach ball all the time, boot is not fast, and from login to safari launch has to be another 30 seconds. I have repaired disk and that helped, for a while.

I have an SSD arriving a few days, and I will likely install SL on it. I'll miss mail, but can live without the rest of it, and look forward to getting the most out of my hardware.

I really hope that Mountain Cougar will improve the performance of Lion to that of SL.... I am tempted to install the dev preview of it.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

Restore windows was a bug that is fixed on 10.7.4. Other than that I agree with your list 100%


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