# Where is this Calgary family?



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*A very strange story out of Calgary....*

*'Stay strong,' urge family of missing Nathan O'Brien, 5, and his grandparents*









_Kathy and Alvin Liknes haven't been seen since Sunday night when they had their grandson Nathan O'Brien stay over at their Calgary home._​
An Amber Alert is still in effect for Nathan O'Brien, 5, after he and his grandparents — Kathryn Liknes, 53, and Alvin Liknes, 66 — were discovered missing Monday morning.

Nathan's mother went to pick up her son at the Liknes's home in the southwest neighbourhood of Parkhill at 10 a.m. MT Monday.

But all three were gone, and there were signs that they had not left willingly, according to police.

Nathan has blond curly hair, brown eyes and was wearing peach-coloured shorts and a striped blue hoodie when he was last seen.

His grandmother has red-brown hair and green eyes and was last seen wearing pyjamas. Alvin Liknes has grey-blond hair and was last seen wearing black sports shorts. He walks with a slight limp.

They are not considered suspects in the boy’s abduction, police say.

Calgary police are asking anyone who attended an estate sale that the grandparents held at their home on the weekend to come forward. 

* * *​
The couple had recently bought a house in Edmonton and were selling some of their things before they made the move, said Andrus. From Edmonton, the couple had been planning on heading to Mexico.

* * *​
the forensic crime scenes unit did examine some marks on the side of the house and we're in the process of determining their relevance to the investigation," he said.

"There were marks on the side of the house that went for a distance along the side."

(CBC)


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

There is a point in the parents' televised plea where the dad mentions the boy's "soul." Maybe it's just an odd split second choice of words, but it seems like soul is a word usually reserved for one who has died rather than one who is still living, as in "to pray for the repose of the soul" of someone. Just a nitpicky detail, perhaps, but there's something about this broadcast, along with thanking all the people for searching even when they haven't found anything yet, that got my spider senses tingling.

How does an abductor manage to take three people, including two full grown adults, one six feet tall, unless it's someone they already know and trust? Whole thing smells kind of fishy to me, a little like Michael White's tearful broadcast about the disappearance of his wife Liana White back in July 2005. He killed her of course, but they appealed to his need for attention in order to lead them to her body (he led the search team that just happened to find her in a ditch). There were similar puzzle pieces missing in that case.

Two things stick out from a police procedural standpoint: they don't normally issue an Amber alert unless there is an identifiable abductor and getaway vehicle, and you don't see three faces in an Amber alert that goes out to the public. Methinks there's more to this case than meets the eye.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yep, this one has been bothering me too from the get go. Something is just not right with this whole scenario. Have you noticed when forensics types have been coming out of the house, they are wearing breathing apparatus? And someone on the CPS leaked that blood was found at the scene. This is not some normal abduction over a valuable antique for sure. My old news nose tells me there is so much more to this that we are not being told by authorities. I fear a very bad ending to this whole mess.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

At least I'm not the only one then. Similar to the Michael White case. "I will find you, Liana," and he did, because he's the only one who knew where he left the body (in pieces mind you). Except in his case, he had a whole story cooked up about where he was at the time of the murder, even though there were witnesses that saw him leaving her truck in the park in the wee hours. In this case, presumably the dad would have been with the rest of the family at the time of the abduction, although that could have taken place anytime within about a 12 hour stretch I suppose. My guess would be middle of the night.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

I just spent 'waaay too much time looking into these people and their online data. 

Lots of interesting conjecture from various sources. It's been taken up by the fanatics at Websleuths too.

From poking around Kathryn Liknes' facebook (and many other) web-presence, an ...interesting... portrait emerges. She's heavily into the world of MLM (multi-level marketing, aka pyramid scheming). One can't help but wonder if her business practices made a few enemies. The couple (grandparents) were slated to move to Edmonton, where they recently bought a house, and then on to Mexico (Mazatlan) for the winter, where Kathryn's husband's (Alvin) twin brother (Allen) lives. Any connection to Mexico and long-term Canadian residents immediately puts kidnapping and extortion at the top of my suspicion list.

Kathryn's facebook page also has recent friend additions - including moving companies located in the UK / Spain / Florida / Austin. Perhaps just related to her MLM activities.

...there's also a long trail of now-expired websites linked to her and her website development business.... and her commercial / residential real estate business... and.... and.... Seems like quite the "entrepreneur" :-\


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Good job of diggin' there CM! Haven't had the time to do any myself, so it is appreciated. The Mexican connection is tres innerestin' indeed.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Hey, that material is all from the Websleuth's site--I read it there earlier this afternoon!


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> Hey, that material is all from the Websleuth's site--I read it there earlier this afternoon!


Darnit - wish you'd posted that earlier. There are - for some reason - two separate threads on Websleuths. The one I linked above, and another that I hadn't seen - and which has much of the info that I spent (too much) time looking up.

And... I don't know if it's my overactive imagination... but Kathryn Liknes' photo (likely a passport photo?) seems very familiar to me... Nothing comes up with a Google reverse image search (apart from all of these hits related to the missing persons case)....


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

The thing that makes no sense to me is the motive. What would the abductor(s) be trying to accomplish? Money? No ransom has been demanded. How do you kidnap a child AND two adults without making a sound? Even in the middle of the night? I presume there was no intruder alarm activated since the mom came inside to pick the child up in the morning or had a key. Strange events indeed. I hope they are found safe and sound, but it doesn't seem to be headed in a happy direction.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Two other random thoughts...

(a) the mom was apparently the last person to see them (10pm Sunday evening) and was the person to report them missing (10am Monday morning).

(b) I've seen no mention of the police searching the park/river area less than a block away:


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Two other random thoughts...
> 
> (a) the mom was apparently the last person to see them (10pm Sunday evening) and was the person to report them missing (10am Monday morning).
> 
> (b) I've seen no mention of the police searching the park/river area less than a block away:


Good points. And damn, that ravine _is_ awfully close.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Methinks Grandma's up to her neck in more than wrinkles.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

It seems to me foolhardy to conjecture on such matters as this.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

I've been watching this too. What concerns me is that the grandparents had a recent sale of personal items, and it sounds like they handled it themselves. Could someone at the sale come back later for the money from the sale? Things went bad and now someone's dead?

The police looking into the buyers, to see if any are suspicious, but it could of been someone who didn't buy anything, he just cased the place when he was at the sale.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Kosh said:


> I've been watching this too. What concerns me is that the grandparents had a recent sale of personal items, and it sounds like they handled it themselves. Could someone at the sale come back later for the money from the sale? Things went bad and now someone's dead?
> 
> The police looking into the buyers, to see if any are suspicious, but it could of been someone who didn't buy anything, he just cased the place when he was at the sale.


Could be, but somehow I don't think this has anything to do with money. If it did, then why involve the boy? There are big pieces missing in this puzzle.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Nathan O'Brien Amber Alert: Police seek Ford truck and driver*










Calgary police investigating the disappearance Monday of a five-year-old boy and his grandparents are looking for a truck and its driver.

Police say a truck was seen in the area the night of the disappearance of the Nathan O'Brien and grandparents Kathy and Alvin Liknes, and investigators want to speak to the person who was driving it. The truck is described as:


A late 1980s or early '90s Ford 150.
Green.
Appears to have been kept in very good condition.

It's expected that police will hold a press conference at 2 p.m. MT Friday, but it's not clear what information will be available at the time.​

(CBC)


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

SINC said:


> Methinks Grandma's up to her neck in more than wrinkles.


My spidey sense tells me there is more to this. Detectives like things to "fit" and there are one or more pieces which seem out of place here.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Nathan O'Brien Amber Alert: 'Violent crime' happened at home*

A violent crime happened at the last place a missing five-year-old boy and his grandparents were seen, Calgary police said Friday. 

Nathan O'Brien and his grandparents, Kathy and Alvin Liknes, have not been seen since Nathan's mom left the Liknes' home Sunday night. When she returned to pick Nathan up Monday morning, all three were gone — and there were signs that they had not left willingly, say police.

"We can now confirm that a violent crime happened in that residence," said Staff Sgt. Doug Andrus with the Calgary Police Service's homicide unit.

"Forensics experts continue to analyze evidence found at the scene in order to determine the exact nature and extent of crime, as well as who the potential victims are."

Andrus added the case is still a missing person investigation and an Amber Alert remains in effect. 

“We remain hopeful that we will find them alive."

(CBC)


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*From the Calgary Sun's Twitter Feed:*



> Missing family: Cops say the truck they are looking for was spotted driving by the house several times through the night they disappeared.





> Missing family: Cops say they would be in medical distress if still alive.





> Missing family: Cops say no sign of forced entry into the house.





> After speaking of progress on missing trio case on Thursday, cops now say they don't expect any updates this weekend.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

If there are no signs of forced entry, then it seems to me a) the door was unlocked, or b) the person let them inside, and possibly c) the person who let them inside knew and trusted the abductor/assailant.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I hate to even think it, but as days go by, sadly so does any hope of them being found alive.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

SINC said:


> I hate to even think it, but as days go by, sadly so does any hope of them being found alive.


It is sad to agree with you on this point. So often the end is someone was killed almost immediately after they were reported missing.

Don I noticed a sign on the front door of their house which said "we're in the house come on in". When I grew up all the door were unlocked, but not now, do Albertans leave the doors open .... Since there was no sign of forced entry an unlocked door could cause investigative problems.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

We lock our doors overnight as a rule Rp, but we do forget occasionally and have been without incident. The doors stay unlocked all day long and often even while we run out for a half hour to pick something up. Our neighbours, as we do, all know each other and keep an eye out for each other so we don't worry much.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Don, those days a gone around here.


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## winwintoo (Nov 9, 2004)

Rps said:


> It is sad to agree with you on this point. So often the end is someone was killed almost immediately after they were reported missing.
> 
> Don I noticed a sign on the front door of their house which said "we're in the house come on in". When I grew up all the door were unlocked, but not now, do Albertans leave the doors open .... Since there was no sign of forced entry an unlocked door could cause investigative problems.


I think the sign was there because they were having an estate sale.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I won't move the car from the road to the driveway without locking the door these days.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

winwintoo said:


> I think the sign was there because they were having an estate sale.


Hi Margaret, I saw that, I guess the question is, since it appears that no one had broken in, was it a walk in or an invited in????


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Rps said:


> Hi Margaret, I saw that, I guess the question is, since it appears that no one had broken in, was it a walk in or an invited in????


Whoever came in came in between 10 pm and 10 am, if the mother's timeline is accurate. The owner of the green truck that kept circling the block seems like perhaps he/she was waiting for an opportunity. I suppose he/she could have knocked just after the mom left and perhaps had only anticipated the two adults and panicked when he saw the child. Hard to say, but they said there were no signs of forced entry, so no breakin, no broken windows, and the signs of violence inside were not easily seen.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

FJ, the police seems defiantly vague on what they say they found, at least at the time I write this.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

They certainly do, and I'm sure they have their reasons. If this green truck is so important, then I'm wondering if that's supposed to be the abduction vehicle, which they haven't said, or it's somehow else connected to the case. It's hard to imagine three abductees in that one vehicle. And again, the proximity to the ravine is something that hasn't been mentioned in the news reports, nor the tennis courts and open field behind the house. Strange.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

This just in. Not good. 

Large police presence on acreage northeast of Airdrie | CTV Calgary News


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Don, I fear your - and probably everyone's by this time - fears are about to be proven true...*

*Nathan O'Brien Amber Alert: 'Person of interest' has criminal past, new charge*



> The man police have called a 'person of interest' in connection with the disappearance of a missing Calgary family faces a new charge this weekend related to a decades-old case of identity theft and also has a link to the Liknes family.
> 
> Douglas Garland, who was taken in for questioning from a rural Airdrie property on Friday, has a criminal history, including drug trafficking and possession of stolen property after he was caught making amphetamines on his parents' Airdrie acreage in 1992.
> 
> Police took Garland into custody for questioning related to the search for five-year-old Nathan O'Brien and his grandparents, Kathy and Alvin Liknes, and CBC News has learned police have charged him with stealing the identity of Matthew Kemper Hartley — a 14-year-old Alberta boy killed in a car crash in 1980.





> CBC News has also learned that Garland has a connection to the Liknes family through his sister.
> 
> His sister lists Nathan O'Brien's parents, Rod and Jennifer, as well as Kathy Liknes as 'friends' on Facebook.
> 
> She also lists one member of the Liknes family as a niece.





> Earlier Sunday, police blocked off a new search area at a rural property northeast of Calgary and brought in the canine unit to help with the investigation into the disappearances of three Calgary family members.
> 
> Around 2:45 p.m. MT, investigators blocked off a new site north of the rural Airdrie property where they have been searching for clues since Friday night. The field has a large body of water and a police helicopter has been seen hovering over the water over the course of the afternoon.
> 
> Several officers and a dog are currently in the field.


(CBC)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yeah Mark, my senses have been telling me this will end badly since day one. I hope not, but I fear so.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The police reports have almost seemed perversely vague. I understand that they can't tip their hands, but their communications seem designed to frustrate anyone who might be able to help.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Douglas Garland has been released, but is still a 'person of interest'. Police continuing to search part of his property which contains a body of water...*

*Nathan O'Brien Missing: Police Search Continues At Airdrie Acreage*



> Investigators brought in a dog and a police motorboat on Sunday as they shifted their search for a five-year-old Calgary boy and his grandparents to a field and a slough north of an acreage.
> 
> The area police were focusing on Sunday is about a kilometre north of the acreage near this Calgary bedroom community that police combed on Saturday.
> 
> ...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Despite the HuffPo article noted above, Garland was not released - he made a court appearance today on an unrelated matter:*

*Nathan O'Brien Amber Alert: Douglas Garland makes 1st court appearance*

_Douglas Garland, questioned by police over the weekend in connection with the disappearance of a Calgary child and his grandparents, made a brief appearance in court today to face a charge of identity theft.

Garland appeared via closed-circuit television, and was expressionless and leaned against a wall as the charge was discussed. He will be back in court on Wednesday. 

A homicide detective and Nathan's father were also in court. The father did not talk to reporters.

In the early 1990s, Garland was convicted of stealing the identity of Matthew Kemper Hartley — a 14-year-old Alberta boy killed in a car crash in 1980. The charge laid against him this past weekend relates to another, more recent incident in which Garland allegedly used the boy's identity again. 

CBC News learned Garland was released from questioning specifically in regards to the Nathan O'Brien disappearance, but remained in police custody in relation to the latest charge of identity theft he now faces._​
(CBC)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I'm guessing the identity theft charge is just their way of keeping him reined in for now.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

If he didn't do anything directly himself, he may well know who did. They could slap a GPS on him like they do in the movies and track his whereabouts.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_On the plus side - this is looking more likely to be anything but a random attack, which leaves the 'crime of opportunity' related to the Estate sale unlikely.

But... now 11 days later and the cops have been searching a landfill... not looking good for their safe return home_ :-(

*Nathan O'Brien Amber Alert: Police investigate 'business issues' as search expands*

_Calgary police are looking into a patent dispute as part of their investigation into the disappearance of a five-year-old and his grandparents, a source close to the police investigation told CBC News. 

Sources say a business deal went sour, leading to "bad blood."

* * * 

Winter Petroleum, a junior gas company that was owned by Liknes, went bankrupt near the end of June — just days before the family went missing. Liknes had registered a patent for an apparatus that separates gas from water.

* * * 

Several investigators are looking into the business relationship between Douglas Garland, a man the police have called the only "person of interest" in the case, and Alvin Liknes, said Calgary Police Service spokesperson Kevin Brookwell said Thursday afternoon. 

* * * 

Alvin Liknes's son was in a common-law relationship with Garland’s sister. _​
(CBC)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Douglas Garland, the only 'person of interest' is being released on bail today. He is to live in a shelter or hotel as he is not allowed to go to his home which is still being searched by police. This just gets more curious as time goes on.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

SINC said:


> Douglas Garland, the only 'person of interest' is being released on bail today. He is to live in a shelter or hotel as he is not allowed to go to his home which is still being searched by police. This just gets more curious as time goes on.


The strange thing is, why is the five year old involved at all? Was he just in the wrong place at the wrong time? I can understand business dealings gone bad, even a cartel/territorial dispute (there are shades of Breaking Bad here), but the disappearance of three people, one of them a small child, just doesn't make a lot of sense.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

fjnmusic said:


> but the disappearance of three people, one of them a small child, just doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


FJ, it does if the 5 year old can identify the person or persons.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Rps said:


> FJ, it does if the 5 year old can identify the person or persons.


You're right. Sad but true.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

This just in. Garland re-arrested.

Police announce arrest in case of missing Calgary family | CTV Calgary News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Police have also cancelled the Amber Alert for the 5-year-old boy, which brings me to a real bad conclusion. A very real tragedy.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

SINC said:


> Police have also cancelled the Amber Alert for the 5-year-old boy, which brings me to a real bad conclusion. A very real tragedy.


I just watched the newscast by Calgary place. They turned off the amber alert because this is now a case of triple-homicide, they they haven't "officially" released the name of the murder suspect until he appears in court.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

fjnmusic said:


> I just watched the newscast by Calgary place. They turned off the amber alert because this is now a case of triple-homicide, they they haven't "officially" released the name of the murder suspect until he appears in court.


Yep, they are dead and it is hard not to believe that police have known this from day one.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

:-(


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

That's terrible news. I was hoping at least, that the little boy might be safe.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

SINC said:


> Yep, they are dead and it is hard not to believe that police have known this from day one.


I would assume that the signs of a violent struggle would include blood. But in an abduction the first 24 hours are critical. If the abductees are not found alive in that time, there's usually going to be a good reason. It was clear this was not a case of ransom, and the murderer likely didn't expect a 5 year old boy to be there. My guess is Mr. Liknes owed somebody some money (as signaled by the recent bankruptcy and estate sale) and that they were going to collect while the getting was good and before the banks opened Monday morning.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I maintain police have known or suspected this from day one. All following days were CYA.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

It ended badly 
Douglas Garland charged with murder in deaths of boy and his grandparents

Douglas Garland charged with murder in deaths of boy and his grandparents | Toronto Star


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Have they found the bodies yet?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Sadly no, Frank.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

That's got to be so hard for the family.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Nathan O'Brien's parents speak about loss and leaving a legacy*

For the first time since their five-year-old son and his grandparents were presumed killed, Rod and Jennifer O'Brien are speaking out about how they've had to reimagine their family.

"We've been treading water in a tsunami, we're now just crawling back on that beach and looking behind us and figuring out, OK, well, we have to figure things out here and put this family back together or continue on in a new family," said Rod O'Brien.

Nathan O'Brien and his grandparents Alvin and Kathy Liknes disappeared in late June.

* * *​
The parents said they were initially paralyzed by grief, unable to imagine life without their son. Today though, they find new purpose with the announcement of the Nathan O'Brien Children's Foundation.

It's a private charity that's been endowed with a one-million dollar gift from an anonymous donor in the United States.

The foundation will begin granting money immediately to children's charities in the Calgary area.

(More at: CBC)


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

It's so hard to start over.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

One of two ongoing Alberta cases where no bodies were ever found. So sad.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Nathan O'Brien Case: Police search for evidence on Douglas Garland's property*



> Calgary police once again searched for evidence on the property of the man accused of murdering Nathan O'Brien, 5, and his grandparents, Alvin and Kathy Liknes.
> 
> It's unclear what led police back to Douglas Garland's property, but investigators were seen on Sunday taking photos and loading what looked like boxes into unmarked vans at the rural property northeast of Airdrie, Alta.
> 
> ...





> Police said investigators were searching the property to collect additional evidence to support the upcoming court case. They do not have any new information about the family's location.
> 
> Nathan and his grandparents were last seen at a home in the southwest Calgary community of Parkhill on June 29, 2014. Their bodies have not been recovered, but Calgary police say evidence indicates all three are dead.


(CBC)

*Related*:


Nathan O'Brien, Liknes Deaths: Calgary Police Search Acreage Again In Missing Family Case
Police return to Airdrie property for Nathan O’Brien investigation | Calgary Herald


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

A sad situation for the families involved as authorities are still searching for murdered St. Albert couple Lyle and Marie McCaan whose bodies have never been found either.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_An update on the case...._

*Douglas Garland now faces 1st-degree murder charge in Nathan O'Brien's death*

Douglas Garland will stand trial for first-degree murder in the death of five-year-old Nathan O'Brien, a Calgary judge decided Wednesday. Garland already faced two charges of first-degree murder for the deaths of Alvin and Kathy Liknes, but had been charged with second-degree murder last summer in their grandson's death.

A trial date is expected to be set on July 31.​
(CBC)


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Finally going to trial....*

N.S. grandparents pray for justice ahead of triple murder trial in Calgary | The Chronicle Herald


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

For those who can stomach the ugly details, reporter Meghan Grant is live tweeting the trial of Douglas Garland.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

What a sick SOB this guy is! This one should wind up quickly, unlike the Vader/McCaan trial mess.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Don, have you seen this? 

What the Garland murder trial jury didn't hear: His meth lab, identity theft and mental health issues - Calgary - CBC News


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> Don, have you seen this?
> 
> What the Garland murder trial jury didn't hear: His meth lab, identity theft and mental health issues - Calgary - CBC News


Wow, no, that is news to me, Mark.

What's not news is the way Canadian justice protects criminals like him by omission. It is just wrong.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Triple-murderer Douglas Garland in hospital after second jailhouse beating: sources*

Convicted triple-murderer Douglas Garland is back in hospital after suffering a second beating, this time in prison, sources say.

Global News has learned Garland was attacked at the Edmonton Institution, a maximum security prison, on Monday night.

Sources confirm he was found breathing but unresponsive in his cell at approximately 9 p.m.

Garland had just been transferred to Edmonton Max from the Calgary Remand Centre that morning.
(Global News)​
I'm sure I've state this before... generally I oppose the death sentence, not on any moral grounds about killing a killer, but because the record has shown so many cases of miscarriage of justice, fabricated evidence, framing of suspects, etc., that the system cannot be trusted. But in the presence of overwhelming evidence and no hint of controversy nor plausible defence on the part of Garland, I have no problem with removing him from society. And thinking of what that family went through - particularly the child - removes any moral shackles by which I may be bound.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yep, he's gonna have a rough life as fellow Cons have no use for child killers. This is but the second of many to come.


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