# The (apparent) Murder of Sammy Yatim



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*What. The. &%#. Were these cops thinking?*





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YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.






_*This kid - drunk, mentally ill, or just really stupid, is in no position to cause harm to anyone (other than perhaps himself). He's alone inside a streetcar. Nine shots and then a taser are fired, and he's dead. This is standard procedure?*_

*Toronto police criticized for shooting of ‘cornered’ man brandishing a knife on empty streetcar*

Toronto police are facing harsh criticism after a video of officers fatally shooting an 18-year-old man armed with a knife on an empty streetcar was posted online over the weekend.

(SNIP)

Yatim died of from multiple gunshot wounds after an “interaction” with police on Dundas Street West, near Trinity Bellwoods, Toronto’s busiest downtown park. It also confirmed a conducted energy weapon (such as a Taser) was used.

(SNIP)

“One or more Toronto Police officers fire three shots, then a pause, followed by another burst of six shots. There are anywhere between eight to 11 officers at the front doors of the cruiser,”​
(National Post)


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

I'm not a right-wing-law an order type, nor am I a left-wing-socio-understanding-is-the-answer type. I view myself as an ordinary person. So, understanding that I wasn't there, and I am suspicious of many of these phone-videos, my average guy mind tells me this seems over the top. In the days of castle the armies would have just "starved" them out and not waste the foot soldiers. Maybe that's what should have happened here. Shooting nine shots at a person only armed with a knife when there appears to be no present danger seems wrong to me.....it just seems wrong.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Happened to be up late, and saw the onilne furor as it happened.... caught my eye because it's pretty close to my home.

It's still very unclear what lead up to the shooting, but something doesn't smell right. 

I mean, there's one guy with a knife isolated on an empty streetcar.... and it took roughly 10 officers and 9 shots and a taser?


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I likewise don't want to weigh in until some reali nformaion emerges--however, as it stands, blocking the door of the empty streetcar would have worked very well.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

And if he got into the driver's seat ..... ?

Just asking.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

iMouse said:


> And if he got into the driver's seat ..... ?
> 
> Just asking.


I will take the rare stance : Thank you to the men and women of Metro Police for keeping us all safe. 
Hoping this sends a message to anyone else wanting to be stupid..
Imagine what could of happened if he went for a joy ride.

If you seen the video, how many times do you need to ask, put the weapon down?
They fired 3 times first, then six more.
When a cop asks me to stop, gun drawn, um, I will listen- don't need 3 warning shots.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

I wonder if the thought of the cop killed by the snow plow idiot was on their minds.

I'm not going to watch the video, thank you, but did he appear to make a move for the driver's seat at any time?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

macintosh doctor said:


> Hoping this sends a message to anyone else wanting to be stupid..


And if this person's judgement was impaired by alcohol; mental illness; other situation not of his doing? Is the police response to this person, in this context, really appropriate? Of course I want to hear the police side of this (which we won't, for a long time, since the SIU has an open investigation), but the video we have of this incident is quite compelling... 



iMouse said:


> I'm not going to watch the video, thank you, but did he appear to make a move for the driver's seat at any time?


According to witness accounts, no.

BTW, the video is not at all gruesome, save for the hail of bullets (i.e., you do not see Yatim be hit or fall).


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

One of the drivers at the Lodge today used to be an auxiliary cop in England.

All he had was a billy. If someone came at him with a knife he was trained to hit the elbow first, to paralyze the arm.

If that failed, a strong blow to a knee-cap, to put him down.

If the bad guy was still threatening, only then was he allowed to deliver a blow to the head.

And he got **** if he did the last one first.

He was at a loss as to why they needed such force.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

iMouse said:


> He was at a loss as to why they needed such force.


That is my question.

That police intervention was needed is not being debated. But what happened?

As for "keeping us safe" this happened in my neighbourhood. At this point, I'm a little more worried about what the police will do than some random guy with a knife.... not really the way I want to think about my local cops.


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## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

In my neighborhood they do that to mental patients with scissors.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

With a reported tazer deployment, then 3 bullets fired at the suspect, why were 6 shots fired apparently after the deceased went down? Seems excessive, especially considering the British Bobbies typical response (reported the mouse) may have been sufficient.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

BigDL said:


> With a reported tazer deployment, then 3 bullets fired at the suspect, why were 6 shots fired apparently after the deceased went down? Seems excessive,..


BigDL - you got it wrong... understandably, because it makes NO sense. 9 shots were fired, three, a pause and six more while down. He was hit "multiple" times. *THEN* they tasered him, on the floor of the bus.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> BigDL - you got it wrong... understandably, because it makes NO sense. 9 shots were fired, three, a pause and six more while down. He was hit "multiple" times. *THEN* they tasered him, on the floor of the bus.


Even more than excessive. Wow. I shall wait for the facts to roll in on this one...but WOW!


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

News is out - that he also exposed himself too. 
That is not a normal person. Pulls out knife and pulls out his wiener
Seriously. Cop did right. 
Asks 3 times - shot 3 times and then finish him if he is approaching.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

"not a normal person" and therefore not worth the trouble to save, eh?

What colour is the sky in your world?


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

So he flashed himself and a knife, and everyone got off the streetcar with no harm to them.... and that leads to his death?

Makes no sense.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Sonal said:


> So he flashed himself and a knife, and everyone got off the streetcar with no harm to them.... and that leads to his death?


One of the more recent reports, including comments from people who were on the bus, say that Yatim ordered everyone off the bus. He apparently did expose himself. This is beginning to sound more like someone intent on doing himself harm.


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## heavyall (Nov 2, 2012)

I know this sounds harsh, but If you brandish a weapon in the direction of a police officer, and he tells you to drop it -- and you *don't*, your death is a suicide. 

Still doesn't explain why they needed so many bullets (or used the taser) though. Did he appear to be reaching for another weapon after he was down?


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

News this morning reports that one cop fired all 9 shots.

He has been suspended, with pay, pending the outcome of the SIU investigation.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Sonal said:


> So he flashed himself and a knife, and everyone got off the streetcar with no harm to them.... and that leads to his death?
> 
> Makes no sense.


I agree. There is something very wrong with this whole thing.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

jawknee said:


> In my neighborhood they do that to mental patients with scissors.


I remember that. I think a mutual friend of ours live a few doors down on the street where that happened.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I guess they got it backwards...Tazer first, service pistol second with a douple tap to centre mass. Clearly no effective training in non lethal action. 

But in a close confined area:





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ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

heavyall said:


> I know this sounds harsh, but If you brandish a weapon in the direction of a police officer, and he tells you to drop it -- and you *don't*, your death is a suicide.
> 
> Still doesn't explain why they needed so many bullets (or used the taser) though. Did he appear to be reaching for another weapon after he was down?


The other weapon was 10 tons of moving Steel.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> The other weapon was 10 tons of moving Steel.


That's incredibly weak.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

groovetube said:


> That's incredibly weak.


Weak?!? As they did what they did to keep it from use. 
Have you forgotten when the snow plow killed
A police officer and that person was found not guilty.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

macintosh doctor said:


> The other weapon was 10 tons of moving Steel.


You can drop your manufactured threat now, *macintosh doctor*. In none of the eyewitness reports or police statements on this issue did anyone suggest that Yatim was intending, threatening, or able to drive the streetcar. All information to date indicates that he was standing near the front of the bus, engaging the police offers outside. To date, you are the *only* one bringing that scenario into play.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

I think a key issue here is faith in the process. Our financial industry runs on faith, and recently our faith in global finance has been called into question....so too our faith in policing. If situations such as this cause us to question our policing, and this certainly does, then our whole system is brought into question. Now comes the investigation .... And in such cases if the level of force appears justified, then the air has a whiff of cover-up. No one wins in this. A greater danger is a police force under constant suspicion..... In these affairs we all lose in the end.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> I think a key issue here is faith in the process. Our financial industry runs on faith, and recently our faith in global finance has been called into question....so too our faith in policing. *If situations such as this cause us to question our policing, and this certainly does, then our whole system is brought into question. * Now comes the investigation .... And in such cases if the level of force appears justified, then the air has a whiff of cover-up. No one wins in this. A greater danger is a police force under constant suspicion..... In these affairs we all lose in the end.


I don't see it that way. I see it as the actions of one trigger happy cop and not an indictment of policing in general.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> I don't see it that way. I see it as the actions of one trigger happy cop and not an indictment of policing in general.


It's not the first such incident in Toronto, nor elsewhere.... and so then the question becomes, how many trigger happy cops do we have? And why?


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Screature, I do agree with your point.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> *It's not the first such incident in Toronto, nor elsewhere.*... and so then the question becomes, how many trigger happy cops do we have? And why?


I realize that but they are still not exactly common incidents and they are acts of individuals. 

I don't agree that the questions that you ask necessarily follow at all. Profiling whole groups of people is not a good thing be it because of race or profession.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Asking the question isn't profiling. If the answers turn out to be "Very few" and "because there's always a couple of bad apples" then there's no issue. If the answers are something different, that would be cause for concern.

One thing that has come up--though there are mental health professionals that the police can bring in in these situations, they are only available until 9PM. That seems inadequate. Hard to know if it would have made a difference here, but surely we can't expect everyone with a mental illness to turn in early, you know?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

screature said:


> I realize that but they are still not exactly common incidents and they are acts of individuals.
> 
> I don't agree that the questions that you ask necessarily follow at all. Profiling whole groups of people is not a good thing be it because of race or profession.


What I find particularly worrisome here is that as with Robert Dziekanski, this was a group of police officers and not a single one seems interested in taking a calmer approach. That may or may not indicate that this is the current climate within the TO police department. If it does that is not a good thing.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Sonal said:


> It's not the first such incident in Toronto, nor elsewhere.... and so then the question becomes, how many trigger happy cops do we have? And why?


not only trigger happy, but plenty of cases of violent ones putting a bad beating on someone when it isn't necessary.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> Weak?!? As they did what they did to keep it from use.
> Have you forgotten when the snow plow killed
> A police officer and that person was found not guilty.


Absolutely a ridiculous and made up story.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> Asking the question isn't profiling. If the answers turn out to be "Very few" and "because there's always a couple of bad apples" then there's no issue. If the answers are something different, that would be cause for concern.
> 
> One thing that has come up--though there are mental health professionals that the police can bring in in these situations, they are only available until 9PM. That seems inadequate. Hard to know if it would have made a difference here, but surely we can't expect everyone with a mental illness to turn in early, you know?


I didn't say asking the questions was profiling, but your previous comment that it has happened before certainly seemed to me to suggest that you may seem to think there is some sort of "pattern".

With the number of officers in the police force and the number of incidents that they must face that are violent I think it is somewhat predictable that occasionally a less than "judicious" cop is going to get himself into trouble.

It doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on the force as a whole but more likely on the individual(s) involved.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I do think that there seems to be a pattern, key word being 'seems'. As such, I have to ask, does this pattern exist in reality, or not?

I live downtown, where people with mental illness appear to be concentrated and also within this specific police division's jurisdiction. If this is typical of how they handle situations with people with mental illness, then of course I will wonder if calling the police is a good idea, should I find myself in a situation like this. And I don't want to wonder about that.

So I want to know, is there a pattern? Because right now, it looks that way.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

groovetube said:


> That's incredibly weak.


I'd say. All you have to do to disable a streetcar is walk up behind it, grab the rope and pull the pole off the wire. And if that can't be done, call it in to TTC's power control and have them shut the power off. Either way, that streetcar's a whole lot of tons of steel that won't be going anywhere once you take away its electricity supply.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

You're elected to sit on the hood of a cruiser, as it races up behind a streetcar in full flight.

But when it suddenly stops, be careful getting off.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I suppose cutting the power might be the easier choice.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

groovetube said:


> I suppose cutting the power might be the easier choice.


Certainly the safer one. That said, When I was in grade 6 though I did get my own back on this really nasty TTC driver after I got off his streetcar by walking back and reaching up with both arms and yanked the pole off moments after he shut the doors and began to pull away. That was one pissed driver after I did that.

Anyhow, given that the guy with the knife was alone on the stopped streetcar after ordering everybody out, I'm surprised the police didn't pull the pole or call it in to TTC and get the power cut to immobilize the streetcar just to make sure the guy didn't try to take off with it.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

CBC just air footing from a local security cam which gives a better view than some of the cell phone footage. 

It's very clear that Sammy Yatim dropped right after the first three shots. Then a pause. Then six more shots.... why six more on a guy already down? And then why the taser after that?


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

Wasn't there an unverified rumour that he was reaching for something else?

Or could this just be a spin-doctor, hard at work.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Sonal said:


> CBC just air footing from a local security cam which gives a better view than some of the cell phone footage.
> 
> It's very clear that Sammy Yatim dropped right after the first three shots. Then a pause. Then six more shots.... why six more on a guy already down? And then why the taser after that?


The six would have been to make sure he was dead. Would not want him suing the butts off the donut squad. Perhaps the Taser was just curiosity; "Does a fresh corpse twitch after you zap it?"

That comes across as terribly cynical, but I really did not see the need for what amounts to an execution. Obviously the individual was mentally disturbed. Expecting a mentally disturbed individual to respond to police in the same manner as a sane person reflects incredibly poor training on the part of the shooting officer(s). To treat it as a capital offense worthy of by-passing the judicial system is scary for anyone that might have to deal with these officers down the road.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

at this point we should wait for the toxicology report - as they did say he dabbled with drugs..
also lets wait for the SIU report too.
both sides, pro cops and pro thug with knife have points and rebuttals..


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> at this point we should wait for the toxicology report - as they did say he dabbled with drugs..
> also lets wait for the SIU report too.
> both sides, pro cops and pro thug with knife have points and rebuttals..


Toxicology report might explain why he was running around with a knife.

What it won't explain is why he was shot six times and then tasered AFTER he'd already been shot down.

I am very eager to read the SIU report.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> I do think that there seems to be a pattern, key word being 'seems'. As such, I have to ask, does this pattern exist in reality, or not?
> 
> I live downtown, where people with mental illness appear to be concentrated and also within this specific police division's jurisdiction. If this is typical of how they handle situations with people with mental illness, then of course I will wonder if calling the police is a good idea, should I find myself in a situation like this. And I don't want to wonder about that.
> 
> So I want to know, is there a pattern? Because right now, it looks that way.


Your instincts (aka "seems") may very well be correct. At this point we really don't know. 

But maybe you could explain to a non-resident of the area why you suspect it may be the case?


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Your instincts (aka "seems") may very well be correct. At this point we really don't know.
> 
> But maybe you could explain to a non-resident of the area why you suspect it may be the case?


Well, the Star covers it well here.
Sammy Yatim: Latest in a long line of Toronto police shooting deaths | Toronto Star

The points I find most relevant to my questions about this:
- The coroner has called for an inquest into some recent police shootings of other people who had mental health issues. The coroner doesn't generally call for frivolous inquests, and as such this suggests that the coroner's office raises a similar question as I have, i.e., is there a pattern, and if so, what does this suggest?

- The Toronto Police, as a result of a previous inquest, have slowly been creating Mobile Crisis Teams to deal with people with mental health issues, which suggests that they are aware that there have been problems when the police come into contact with people with mental health issues--but note that such a team was unavailable here.

- Based on previous inquest, the coroner has recommended that front-line police use tasers as a first line of defence (instead of a firearm.) Clearly, that wasn't the case here, though from what I infer from the Star article is that not all police carry tasers.

Finally, as a major urban centre, Toronto tends to get a high number of people with serious mental health issues. This is both due to population size, and the fact that most services (while strained) for people with mental health issues are in Toronto, and access to many of those services are in downtown--CAMH, for example, is a short walk away from where this shooting took place. Similarly, despite condos and wide-spread gentrification, many areas in downtown continue to serve marginalized populations, including people with mental health issues--among the hipster cupcake shops and overpriced condos are rooming houses and cheap long-term stay hotels. (Again, I can think of a number of each a short walk away from where this shooting took place.) 

So it does concern me, that there have been a number of high profile cases involving the shooting death of people with mental health issues by the police, that the coroner has made recommendations as a result of inquests into these deaths that have (at best) been incompletely implemented, that the coroner continues to hold inquests into these deaths, and that the police are operating in a city where interactions with people with mental health issues are (relatively) common and likely to increase.... as such, if I am dealing with someone who has a mental health issue (a fairly likely circumstance for me, considering where I live and that I am a landlord) I have to wonder if calling the police is really the best move; I would not want someone who clearly needs help to get shot and killed if that can be avoided. And as I said, I don't want to wonder about the police.

So I am very eager to see the SIU report.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

This is a useful perspective.
Police must respond aggressively knife-wielding assailants | National Post

Still doesn't explain why he was shot six times after he was shot down, nor why he was Tasered after that though.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

He was not "shot six times after he was shot down", the first 3 shots were warning ones.

He was shot six times when he (apparently) flatly refused to drop his knife.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

video accounts say otherwise. In the videos, he clearly drops after the first 3 shots.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

Of the nine in total?

It could have been in fear, rather than him actually being hit.

Please, I'm just speculating here.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

here's youtube link. Enhanced video - Shooting of Sammy Yatim by Toronto Police Const. James Forcillo - YouTube

Warning it's the video of the shooting. 3 shots, I don't see the guy standing.

Bloody barbaric if you ask me.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

iMouse said:


> Of the nine in total?
> 
> It could have been in fear, rather than him actually being hit.
> 
> Please, I'm just speculating here.


Yeah, video footage clearly shows that the first 3 were not warning shots. He falls to the ground.

Even before I read the National Post column I just posted, I could understand those first three shots--there may be a better way to handle the situation, but the logic of what happened is pretty clear.

I don't understand the subsequent six shots nor the final Tasering.

ETA: The CBC showed the B&W security cam video simultaneously and synched up with the cell phone video that had sound (gt's youtube link), and stepped through it slowly.... it was very clear. Three shots, and he dropped. Then a pause. Then six more shots.


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

Maybe somebody can clarify, but I'm not sure a "warning shot" is not something out of the movies. And 3 warning shots seems even crazier.

I mean a bullet in any populated area has to go somewhere. The last thing you need is a some poor bistander or home owner taken a bullet that was meant to "warn" someone else.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

smashedbanana said:


> Maybe somebody can clarify, but I'm not sure a "warning shot" is not something out of the movies. And 3 warning shots seems even crazier.
> 
> I mean a bullet in any populated area has to go somewhere. The last thing you need is a some poor bistander or home owner taken a bullet that was meant to "warn" someone else.


Right, that's pure Hollywood. No such thing as a warning shot or a wounding shot. When you intend on using deadly force (and that's the only time you should unholster your side arm), you do not shoot warnings or aim to wound.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> Well, the Star covers it well here.
> Sammy Yatim: Latest in a long line of Toronto police shooting deaths | Toronto Star
> 
> The points I find most relevant to my questions about this:
> ...





Sonal said:


> This is a useful perspective.
> Police must respond aggressively knife-wielding assailants | National Post
> 
> Still doesn't explain why he was shot six times after he was shot down, nor why he was Tasered after that though.


Thank you for both these posts and links Sonal. Very informative.

I can understand your concerns especially as you live in the area and have to deal with the mentally ill.

However, I do have a couple of points to make. First there is no indication that Yatim had any history of mental illness. So I'm not sure that he fits into the scenario you are outlining. He may have been strung out on drugs but we don't know that either at this point in time.

Second the number of cases that were referenced in the Star article were 9 in a period of 25 years, on average less than 1 such case every 2.8 years. I really fail to see how that constitutes a pattern, to me it is indicative of isolated incidents considering how often the police must have to deal with the mentally ill.

Now certainly even one "unjustified" death is one too many, but I think that given the circumstances that officers find themselves in where their life and/or the lives of the public may be at risk it is all too easy for the public to be outraged when a death occurs, when we really have little comprehension of how all too real the risks (as the 2nd link you posted points out) are when someone is brandishing a knife.

In this particular case I do feel based on the prima facie video evidence, that the officer may have over reacted and there could have been more efforts made to de-escalate the situation. As you say the SIU report will be informative.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

iMouse said:


> He was not "shot six times after he was shot down", the first 3 shots were warning ones.
> 
> He was shot six times when he (apparently) flatly refused to drop his knife.


Similar but different case in Seattle or Spokane a while back, turns out the guy carrying the knife was *deaf*. That case was even more tragic as it was a small pocket knife and the victim was a very talented Native American woodcarver. Rookie cop, Indian carrying a knife = Dead Indian.

Link: Cop's video captures gunfire that killed woodcarver | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News

Point is that refusing to obey a police order is not and should not be a capital offense. As mentioned earlier, the street car could easily be disabled and the police could have held back calmly as indeed most of them did. If the man emerged from the streetcar, then more drastic action should have been taken. 

This is one of those times I want very much to be wrong, but my gut reaction is that one of the cops wanted a kill to his name/shame and took advantage of the opportunity.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Another question that begs to be asked is what about all the other officers that were attending the scene? 

In a situation like that, every single one of them should be considered accomplices. I'm sure they are not trained to comply with the actions of a rogue officer. Why weren't they intervening when the situation was escalating?

Are they trained to shoot first and ask questions later or are they really just a big fraternity, protecting one another at any cost.

I'm sure when the dust settles and they release their report, this officer will be treated with leniency. As is the culture...

Although, there will never be any justification as to why they felt the need to taser after nearly emptying their service revolver into this kid.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

mrjimmy said:


> Another question that begs to be asked is what about all the other officers that were attending the scene?
> 
> *In a situation like that, every single one of them should be considered accomplices. *I'm sure they are not trained to comply with the actions of a rogue officer. Why weren't they intervening when the situation was escalating?
> 
> ...


How is that? It depends on whether or not the officer who did the shooting acted alone or was given an order to shoot. What are the other officers supposed to do? Jump on their colleague and hog tie him in the few seconds it took for him to fire off his rounds? That is a completely unrealistic expectation.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

Communication between the officers on the scene and their radio control 'friend' might prove interesting, if they record everything said over their portable channel, and if it doesn't get lost.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

mrjimmy said:


> Another question that begs to be asked is what about all the other officers that were attending the scene?
> 
> In a situation like that, every single one of them should be considered accomplices. I'm sure they are not trained to comply with the actions of a rogue officer. Why weren't they intervening when the situation was escalating?
> 
> ...


Seriously !?! Rogue officer. Wow - you watch too much Hollywood.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> Seriously !?! Rogue officer. Wow - you watch too much Hollywood.


Maybe not rogue, but his actions were questionable enough to warrant a suspension.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> Seriously !?! Rogue officer. Wow - you watch too much Hollywood.


So you think they were all complicit in firing 9 rounds and then tasering? 

BTW, speaking of Hollywood:



> The other weapon was 10 tons of moving Steel.


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## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

That's called 'waxing poetic' I believe. :lmao:


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

iMouse said:


> Communication between the officers on the scene and their radio control 'friend' might prove interesting, if they record everything said over their portable channel, and if it doesn't get lost.


I think you mean *...if it doesn't get "lost".* XX)


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

Yes, I was trying for absolute stealth.

If there is an opening for a civilian SIU investigator, *please* accept this as my application.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> Maybe not rogue, but his actions were questionable enough to warrant a suspension.


Is that not the normal process for officers involved in any case under investigation by SIU?


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

Special Investigations Unit -- FAQs


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I am going to go out on a limb here and make a prediction. This is based on what has happened previously in Canada and on the we've got your back culture that is of necessity part of the police culture.

They've flown the; "He might have driven off with the street car and turned it into a weapon" balloon and it sank so fast that it is unlikely to appear in the investigation.

More likely the gunman will claim he was too busy shouting at the target to hear his colleague mention that there was no one else on the streetcar. He will then claim that blinded by testosterone and adrenalin he failed to notice there were no hostages and was there for justified in killing the knifeman as he thought innocent lives were at risk. Doubtless he at most will suffer a few weeks desk duty before being turned loose to do it again.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> Is that not the normal process for officers involved in any case under investigation by SIU?





iMouse said:


> Special Investigations Unit -- FAQs


From the link provided by iMouse:



> While the investigation is ongoing, what is the employment status of the subject officer?
> 
> Because it is an employment issue, you would have to ask the police service for whom the subject officer works.


So it seems it is up to the given police force to make the decision to suspend the officer.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> I am going to go out on a limb here and make a prediction. This is based on what has happened previously in Canada and on the we've got your back culture that is of necessity part of the police culture.
> 
> They've flown the; "He might have driven off with the street car and turned it into a weapon" balloon and it sank so fast that it is unlikely to appear in the investigation.
> 
> *More likely the gunman will claim he was too busy shouting at the target to hear his colleague mention that there was no one else on the streetcar. He will then claim that blinded by testosterone and adrenalin he failed to notice there were no hostages* and was there for justified in killing the knifeman as he thought innocent lives were at risk. *Doubtless he at most will suffer a few weeks desk duty before being turned loose to do it again*.


Quite frankly that is quite a lame and cynical "prediction" even for your conspiracy theory inclined mind eMacMan.


----------



## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

mrjimmy said:


> So you think they were all complicit in firing 9 rounds and then tasering?
> 
> BTW, speaking of Hollywood:


You right it's Weight is 22,685 kg (50,010 lb)


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> You right it's Weight is 22,685 kg (50,010 lb)


I can fully understand a police officer's fear of a repeat of that snowplow incident. It doesn't mean that nothing was done wrong, but that tragedy is still fresh in the minds of many officers.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I can fully understand a police officer's fear of a repeat of that snowplow incident. It doesn't mean that nothing was done wrong, but that tragedy is still fresh in the minds of many officers.


Except that snowplows can go where ever they bloody well want...

A street car on tracks, not so much.


----------



## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

screature said:


> Except that snowplows can go where ever they bloody well want...
> 
> A street car on tracks, not so much.


top speed of 110/k per hour not to mention in a tight downtown hood, it will be a plow..
imagine the havoc it would cause and the damage to personal property and life..

Still siding with the police on this one..
Any one who holds their penis in the open and a knife in the other hand, needs a wake up call if when asked 4 times to drop the weapon-

sadly this case if the family is rewarded with $$$, everyone will now go naked and knife in hand for a lotto pay out.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

screature said:


> Quite frankly that is quite a lame and cynical "prediction" even for your conspiracy theory inclined mind eMacMan.


Perhaps but quite in line with several incidents in BC: Robert Dziekanski, The Indian teenage girl in Williams Lake, The man who was laying on the ground and hand cuffed when the Officer kicked him in the face.......

Time will tell how this plays out. I would think some sort of charges are in order here, but doubt very seriously we will see any. Again the street car as a weapon claim fails to play, as the target was clearly moving away from the divers seat when he was first shot. 

The additional shots have to be labeled executional. Though I will be very surprised if the shooter does not claim he thought the downed man was reaching for a gun. Perhaps a shiny can of diet Sprite™ will show up to corroborate his claim?


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

screature said:


> Except that snowplows can go where ever they bloody well want...
> 
> A street car on tracks, not so much.


Exactly. Also, there was never any threat of him operating the streetcar. Just a feeble way of defending the police over reason.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Perhaps but quite in line with several incidents in BC: Robert Dziekanski, The Indian teenage girl in Williams Lake, *The man who was laying on the ground and hand cuffed when the Officer kicked him in the face*.......


He was kicked off the force. So much for your prediction of no repercussions.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

mrjimmy said:


> Exactly. Also, there was never any threat of him operating the streetcar. Just a feeble way of defending the police over reason.


The problem is we are arm chair quarter backs with coulda, shoulda, might of.. opinions..
you have 1 min or less to decide how to end it..

Police made a choice, it was quick and no collateral damage.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> top speed of 110/k per hour not to mention in a tight downtown hood, it will be a plow..
> imagine the havoc it would cause and the damage to personal property and life..
> 
> Still siding with the police on this one..
> ...


You know you are sounding just a little bit silly now don't you?


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

screature said:


> You know you are sounding just a little bit silly now don't you?


nope.. because those are the facts.. it is always about the money with people.. just wait and see..


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

screature said:


> He was kicked off the force. So much for your prediction of no repercussions.


But where were the charges?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> *The problem is we are arm chair quarter backs with coulda, shoulda, might of.. opinions..
> you have 1 min or less to decide how to end it..*
> 
> Police made a choice, it was quick and no collateral damage.


But that is the problem, there could have been plenty more time as Sammy presented no immediate threat to anyone, even the officers, as he would have had to descend the stairs of the street car to get to them and they already had their guns drawn, so there wasn't the scenario of the 20ft closing gap that was presented in the excellent article that Sonal linked to.

One officer made a decision, and again of the prima facie evidence of the video(s), it appears to have been rash and uncalled for.

Also your whole argument that he could have taken control of and driven the streetcar is completely unfounded in fact and is based only on pure speculation.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> nope.. because those are the facts.. it is always about the money with people.. just wait and see..


what are you basing this nonsense on?


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

screature said:


> He was kicked off the force. So much for your prediction of no repercussions.


Oops! Retracted comment. Different situation...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> But where were the charges?


He was charged with assault causing bodily harm.

Kelowna Mountie gets suspended sentence for face kick 



> *A former *Kelowna Mountie was given a suspended sentence and 18 months probation for kicking a man in the face during an arrest in January 2011.
> 
> Const. Geoff Mantler pleaded guilty to assault causing bodily harm last year, after he was caught on video kicking Buddy Tavares in the face.
> 
> ...


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

macintosh doctor said:


> nope.. because those are the facts.. it is always about the money with people.. just wait and see..


Well silly us. We were looking for 'the facts' in all the wrong places!

macintosh doctor had them all along!


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

screature said:


> Except that snowplows can go where ever they bloody well want...
> 
> A street car on tracks, not so much.


It can head through intersections against the lights. However, even while I don't believe that the police will get off without blame here, I can understand the sort of split-second thinking that might have led police to regard the streetcar as a potential weapon.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> It can head through intersections against the lights. However, even while I don't believe that the police will get off without blame here, *I can understand the sort of split-second thinking that might have led police to regard the streetcar as a potential weapon*.


Why was split second thinking required? Did Sammy make a move toward getting into the driver's seat? Not according to the video, he wasn't even near the driver's seat.

However, as I have already stated we need to be careful about our use of language. It isn't a matter of the "police" getting off without blame, it is a matter of the actions of one officer and not the force as a whole.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

screature said:


> Why was split second thinking required? Did Sammy make a move toward getting into the driver's seat? Not according to the video, he wasn't even near the driver's seat.
> 
> However, as I have already stated we need to be careful about our use of language. It isn't a matter of the "police" getting off without blame, it is a matter of the actions of one officer and not the force as a whole.


But one police officer does represent the whole force in the court of law, when they sue for money.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

macintosh doctor said:


> But one police officer does represent the whole force in the court of law, when they sue for money.


You really are putting the cart before the horse here and again it is just pure speculation that they will be sued at this point and no, one police officer does not represent the whole force in a court of law, the force represents him if they choose to fight... you've got it bass ackwards.


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## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

screature said:


> However, as I have already stated we need to be careful about our use of language. It isn't a matter of the "police" getting off without blame, it is a matter of the actions of one officer and not the force as a whole.


While this is a sensible approach, the reputation of 'the force as a whole' has been tarnished by a number of officers who chose to remove their badge numbers and operate anonymously during the G20. 

Given those circumstances, and the fact that the police are a tight brotherhood, it is easy to see how the integrity of the department can be called into question.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> While this is a sensible approach, the reputation of 'the force as a whole' has been tarnished by a number of officers who chose to remove their badge numbers and operate anonymously during the G20.
> 
> Given those circumstances, and the fact that the police are a tight brotherhood, it is easy to see how the integrity of the department can be called into question.


Agreed.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

macintosh doctor said:


> The problem is we are arm chair quarter backs with coulda, shoulda, might of.. opinions..
> you have 1 min or less to decide how to end it..
> 
> Police made a choice, it was quick and no collateral damage.


I disagree, the situation was contained. The suspect on the street car was not attacking anyone and contained to the street car. There was absolutely no negoatiation done to try and de-escalate the situation.

CTV ran a good news story on this last night. Apparently the SIU has sent dozens of recommendations to Toronto Police that have all fallen on deaf ears. SIU has constantly recommended that Toronto train their police on de-escalation procedures.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

mrjimmy said:


> While this is a sensible approach, the reputation of 'the force as a whole' has been tarnished by a number of officers who chose to remove their badge numbers and operate anonymously during the G20.
> 
> Given those circumstances, and the fact that the police are a tight brotherhood, it is easy to see how the integrity of the department can be called into question.


There were many police forces involved with the security surrounding the G20. Was it officers from the Toronto police force that did this? I was unaware that such behaviour took place.

Police forces, just like the military, require that there be a "tight brotherhood", they need to know that they have each others back.

However, when there are cases of wrong doing, unless it can be proven that there is some conspiracy to cover up facts, I think it is best that one remember that the actions of one officer are exactly that, the acts of an individual and it is wrong to paint the entire force with the same brush and blame the entire force.

Human beings, being how we often are, tend to jump to conclusions and blame an entire group for the actions of an individual within the group. I get that, but it doesn't mean it is right.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> There were many police forces involved with the security surrounding the G20. Was it officers from the Toronto police force that did this? I was unaware that such behaviour took place.


Yep. 90 of them are facing disciplinary action for it.

Sure, we have a big force, but 90 officers is still quite a lot.

90 officers facing disciplinary action for hiding their identity at G20 | Toronto Star


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> Yep. 90 of them are facing disciplinary action for it.
> 
> Sure, we have a big force, but 90 officers is still quite a lot.
> 
> 90 officers facing disciplinary action for hiding their identity at G20 | Toronto Star


Ok thanks Sonal. 

Hopefully the "disciplinary action" is substantial as there is simply no justification for them removing their badges and operating anonymously.

From the article you posted the link to, the Chief does say:



> Brandishing one of the badges, which attach to officers’ uniforms with Velcro, *the chief emphasized any officers who disobeyed the policy were acting individually.
> 
> “If they have made a choice to engage in misconduct by disobeying a rule of the service they will be held accountable,”* he said.


So it appears the force is going to do the right thing.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I am absolutely certain that the autopsy will include a complete tox screen, but I wonder if the shooter was tested for steroids and amphetamines? Seems to me that should be a routine test in any situation where a cop seems to have gone off the rails.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I do think, overall, Chief Blair has been doing a pretty good job of trying to keep the force in line.

But at the same time, there seem to be an awful lot of individual officers engaging in misconduct. 

Was thinking a bit last night about the long-held open secret about of Toronto Police taking the homeless and other marginalized people down to Cherry Beach to beat the crap out of them.... Googled a bit, and there was one successful civil suit against the police for this, which implies that it's not entirely rumour. (The difficulty with police interactions with marginalized people is that such people rarely bring things to the media or the courts, so unless there were other witnesses, it gets buried.)

So again, I wonder about a pattern.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> I do think, overall, Chief Blair has been doing a pretty good job of trying to keep the force in line.
> 
> But at the same time, there seem to be an awful lot of individual officers engaging in misconduct.
> 
> ...


Well if there is a pattern it seems most likely to be a pattern formulated among a group of officers within the force and most likely not an unstated policy of the force it self.

Of course if such a group of officers exist they need to be rooted out, disciplined, retrained and if necessary, fired and criminal charges brought to bear against them.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Well if there is a pattern it seems most likely to be a pattern formulated among a group of officers within the force and most likely not an unstated policy of the force it self.
> 
> Of course if such a group of officers exist they need to be rooted out, disciplined, retrained and if necessary, fired and criminal charges brought to bear against them.


At what point does a group of officers within the force become sufficiently large to effectively be considered the force? It's hard to know how many officers do this.

And while it's understandable that the police close ranks and back each other up, that makes uncovering who is a problem very difficult.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> At what point does a group of officers within the force become sufficiently large to effectively be considered the force? It's hard to know how many officers do this.
> 
> And while it's understandable that the police close ranks and back each other up, that makes uncovering who is a problem very difficult.


I don't know. The TPS has 5,400 sworn members. You tell me "At what point does a group of officers within the force become sufficiently large to effectively be considered the force?", as you seem to be the one to want to attribute such issues as being systemic and representing the force as a whole.

You know this whole discussion and the tack you are taking comes pretty close to what I was talking about earlier, i.e. profiling, which is pretty close to being prejudice, i.e. attributing the actions/characteristics of a few to the group as a whole.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Sonal said:


> At what point does a group of officers within the force become sufficiently large to effectively be considered the force? It's hard to know how many officers do this.
> 
> And while it's understandable that the police close ranks and back each other up, that makes uncovering who is a problem very difficult.


Let's remember, that the large number of officers who have faced disciplinary action and have been involved with misconduct is merely what we know about. I bet the problem goes far, far deeper than just the ones that are known.

Granted, there are likely great people on the force, obviously, but that isn't a reason to ignore this large problem. Even just a couple hundred armed officers with that kind of power running around in our city, is a very serious problem.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sonal said:


> Was thinking a bit last night about the long-held open secret about of Toronto Police taking the homeless and other marginalized people down to Cherry Beach to beat the crap out of them.... Googled a bit, and there was one successful civil suit against the police for this, which implies that it's not entirely rumour. .







+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Let's remember, that the large number of officers who have faced disciplinary action and have been involved with misconduct is merely what we know about. I bet the problem goes far, far deeper than just the ones that are known.
> 
> *Granted, there are likely great people on the force, obviously, but that isn't a reason to ignore this large problem. Even just a couple hundred armed officers with that kind of power running around in our city, is a very serious problem*.


Absolutely. If there is misconducted and/or corruption within the force it must, as I said before, be rooted out and there be discipline, retraining, and if necessary firings and charges being laid.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

screature said:


> I don't know. The TPS has 5,400 sworn members. You tell me "At what point does a group of officers within the force become sufficiently large to effectively be considered the force?", as you seem to be the one to want to attribute such issues as being systemic and representing the force as a whole.
> 
> You know this whole discussion and the tack you are taking comes pretty close to what I was talking about earlier, i.e. profiling, which is pretty close to being prejudice, i.e. attributing the actions/characteristics of a few to the group as a whole.


Such individual incidents happen enough that I do wonder if they are systemic.

And again, they key word is 'wonder'.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Sonal said:


> I do think, overall, Chief Blair has been doing a pretty good job of trying to keep the force in line.
> 
> But at the same time, there seem to be an awful lot of individual officers engaging in misconduct.
> 
> ...


I forgot to mention that yeah, the cherry beach thing is legendary. I remember being told about it in the late 70s.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

groovetube said:


> I forgot to mention that yeah, the cherry beach thing is legendary. I remember being told about it in the late 70s.


Probably will happen less now that the area is being developed.... though it's still fairly isolated at the moment.

But yeah, if it's been going on that long, it's hard not to wonder if it's systemic.


----------



## iMouse (Mar 1, 2008)

screature said:


> You know you are sounding just a little bit silly now don't you?


One item is in error.

Streetcars only travel at 85kph, max. Still a potent weapon.



> Top speed Subway/L-train/Streetcar: 85kph
> ................. Bus: 100kph


Toronto Transit Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

iMouse said:


> One item is in error.
> 
> Streetcars only travel at 85kph, max. Still a potent weapon.
> 
> Toronto Transit Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Uh actually no this is what was making him look silly and for which there is zero basis in fact:



macintosh doctor said:


> top speed of 110/k per hour not to mention in a tight downtown hood, it will be a plow..
> imagine the havoc it would cause and the damage to personal property and life..
> 
> Still siding with the police on this one..
> ...


Perhaps you just missed that point or you are in agreement with that nonsense.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Uh actually no this is what was making him look silly and for which there is zero basis in fact:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you just missed that point or you are in agreement with that nonsense.


I'll have to agree with the nonsense assessment.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

There was only one Serpiico....all the other cops, well you know, down on "Cherry Beach", lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

First, yay:
Sammy Yatim: Ontario ombudsman to probe police guidelines in wake of shooting | Toronto Star

Then, klassy behaviour from a police officer:
Ontario ombudsman outs Twitter troll attacking him over Sammy Yatim shooting as Durham police detective | National Post


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Sonal said:


> First, yay:
> Sammy Yatim: Ontario ombudsman to probe police guidelines in wake of shooting | Toronto Star
> 
> Then, klassy behaviour from a police officer:
> Ontario ombudsman outs Twitter troll attacking him over Sammy Yatim shooting as Durham police detective | National Post


first 'yay' indeed.

and second link, a big rousing 'boooo' on that one.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Sonal said:


> First, yay:
> Sammy Yatim: Ontario ombudsman to probe police guidelines in wake of shooting | Toronto Star
> 
> Then, klassy behaviour from a police officer:
> Ontario ombudsman outs Twitter troll attacking him over Sammy Yatim shooting as Durham police detective | National Post


I'm good with the first, but a little suspicious about the second. If the Ombudsman used methods normally available to the public to out the officer, that's fine. I think the Ombudsman has to come a little cleaner on how the account information was found.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

The street car has been repaired and back in service.. thats good news.. as some were demanding it be put to pasture..
$11 million in the pasture??? I say hose it down and fix and clean it.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> The street car has been repaired and back in service.. thats good news.. as some were demanding it be put to pasture..
> $11 million in the pasture??? I say hose it down and fix and clean it.


Absolutely.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> The street car has been repaired and back in service.. thats good news.. as some were demanding it be put to pasture..
> $11 million in the pasture??? I say hose it down and fix and clean it.


An argument can/should be made for pasteurizing the shooter. As far as I can see the car did nothing wrong and as long as there are no PTSD symptoms, belongs back on the job.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

macintosh doctor said:


> The street car has been repaired and back in service.. thats good news.. as some were demanding it be put to pasture..
> $11 million in the pasture??? I say hose it down and fix and clean it.


While I agree about repairing and hosing down, I can't believe the streetcar cost $11 million, even adjusted for inflation. Do you have a source for that number?

The new street cars are only costing $6 million each, and they're far larger.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Toronto police officer charged with murder in streetcar shooting - Toronto - CBC News

wow. The cop is now charged with second degree murder.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Toronto police officer charged with murder in streetcar shooting - Toronto - CBC News
> 
> wow. The cop is now charged with second degree murder.


While I have little doubt that the spin meisters will be working overtime to save the officers heiné, it is good to see a realistic charge filed within a reasonable time frame.:clap: Hopefully the prosecutors will pursue this charge as vigorously as possible.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Colour me amazed...


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Also amazed at the second degree charge, but glad charges were laid. My guess, total acquittal or a plea bargain down to manslaughter.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Charges laid are a good start... it's rare that the SIU lays charges on anyone.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Another way to deal with a knife wielding teenager, quoted from the Helena Independent Record.



> August 14, 2013 12:00 am • Independent Record
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> While I have little doubt that the spin meisters will be working overtime to save the officers heiné, it is good to see a realistic charge filed within a reasonable time frame.:clap: Hopefully the prosecutors will pursue this charge as vigorously as possible.


Oops looks like your like predictions aren't quite coming true, at least in the time line you prophesied.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Oops looks like your like predictions aren't quite coming true, at least in the time line you prophesied.


didI I miss the time frame in his post??


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> didI I miss the time frame in his post??


Not time frame, time line, i.e. order of events.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Not time frame, time line, i.e. order of events.


still confused. All I saw was "the spin meisters will be working overtime to save the officers heiné".


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> still confused. All I saw was "the spin meisters will be working overtime to save the officers heiné".


This.



eMacMan said:


> I am going to go out on a limb here and make a prediction. This is based on what has happened previously in Canada and on the we've got your back culture that is of necessity part of the police culture.
> 
> They've flown the; "He might have driven off with the street car and turned it into a weapon" balloon and it sank so fast that it is unlikely to appear in the investigation.
> 
> More likely the gunman will claim he was too busy shouting at the target to hear his colleague mention that there was no one else on the streetcar. He will then claim that blinded by testosterone and adrenalin he failed to notice there were no hostages and was there for justified in killing the knifeman as he thought innocent lives were at risk. *Doubtless he at most will suffer a few weeks desk duty before being turned loose to do it again.*


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> This.


ah, that clarifies it.

So it was a jab at an earlier post.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> ah, that clarifies it.
> 
> So it was a jab at an earlier post.


Talk about following people around...


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Talk about following people around...


where?


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

screature said:


> Oops looks like your like predictions aren't quite coming true, at least in the time line you prophesied.


Nice to be proven partially wrong on that one. 

Charges are just the beginning. We will still have to see if they manage not to blow things. The SF subway shooting and Rodney King may not have been TO but the culture is very similar. 

FWIW I caught a glimpse on TV of someone whom I believe is his union rep trying to claim the shooter was a victim.

This guy deserves to be put away for murder. Had he stopped after the first three shots I think he might have gotten off with a few weeks desk duty, but those last six shots can only be described as an execution.

Good thing here, is that the clamour from us peasants made this one impossible to ignore.

Should not be relevant to pursuing a conviction but I am very curious as to whether the officer was tested for steroid use. Roid rage does seem one possible explanation for his behaviour.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Nice to be proven partially wrong on that one.
> 
> Charges are just the beginning. We will still have to see if they manage not to blow things. The SF subway shooting and Rodney King may not have been TO but the culture is very similar.
> 
> ...


Well that is certainly part of it as was stated in a CBC article, but it was the video that led to the public outrage:



> In that sense, the video played a dual role, Pieters argues. Without the video, "It would have been highly unlikely that the SIU would have laid charges and it would have been unlikely that there would have been such a public display of outrage."


Why James Forcillo was charged with murder in Yatim shooting

Motive is going to play a big part in the eventual outcome.

Even if Forcillo ends up being acquitted his career as a police officer is over and he would be best to move out of Toronto and probably Ontario.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Saw some comments on the news last night about video changing the nature of policing... the SIU has rarely laid charges and these have never lead to a conviction, but on the other hand, there has never been so much video evidence.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Sonal said:


> Saw some comments on the news last night about video changing the nature of policing... the SIU has rarely laid charges and these have never lead to a conviction, *but on the other hand, there has never been so much video evidence*.


As well as first hand civilian eye witnesses:



> Unlike many other police shootings, a number of civilians could be called to give eyewitness testimony...


from the same article above.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

No reason to believe this will see a jury, but if it does it will present an interesting dilemma for jurors. 

Find him guilty and it may prove to be death sentence. Putting a cop in prison is about the same as painting a target on his back.

OTOH set him free and at least the TO constabulary may view the precedent as a license to kill. I know if some nosy neighbour sees the tomato plants in my front window, and tips the cops I am running a grow-op; I would not want Officer Forcillo or his like answering the call.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

The putz that "tazered" Yatim after receiving 9 rounds should join Forcillo on criminal assault charges.

So, how many of still think that only cops should have firearms?

How 'bout this bunch in Quebec...maybe Ottawa area :





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

kps said:


> So, how many of still think that only cops should have firearms?


 
As far as I know anyone who is approved by the police to have a firearms license, can have a firearm. So what are you implying by this statement? It's a rather open ended question. Are you implying people in Canada should have guns to "protect themselves"? When you say firearms, are you implying people in Canada should have pistols?


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Clear we all need fully automatic assault rifles, computer-aided sniper rifles, RPGs and perhaps home surface-to-air missile launchers to protect ourselves  Oh yeah, also for recreation and sporting.

I've never understood how people can argue that it's unacceptable to ban certain weapons. Back in the 1800's it might've made some sense for citizens to carry fire arms. It just doesn't any more. Times change.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Kosh said:


> As far as I know anyone who is approved by the police to have a firearms license, can have a firearm. So what are you implying by this statement? It's a rather open ended question. Are you implying people in Canada should have guns to "protect themselves"? When you say firearms, are you implying people in Canada should have pistols?


I mean exactly what is stated in the post....many people believe that civilians should not own firearms and that only law enforcement and the military should have them. I could post thousands of stories where cops or the military went wrong with firearms outside of the law or in the case of the military, outside of military need.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

bryanc said:


> Clear we all need fully automatic assault rifles, computer-aided sniper rifles, RPGs and perhaps home surface-to-air missile launchers to protect ourselves  Oh yeah, also for recreation and sporting.
> 
> I've never understood how people can argue that it's unacceptable to ban certain weapons. Back in the 1800's it might've made some sense for citizens to carry fire arms. It just doesn't any more. Times change.


Hyperbole on top of hyperbole.

Times change? What does that mean? And where did I state that we should all "carry"? Please read...and if you're capable, understand what is written in my post.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

it's hard to understand what you mean if you don't state it clearly. If you think we should all be allowed to carry hand guns, say so. If not, explain why. If you think handguns should be regulated differently than long guns, explain why. If you're okay with everyone having rifles and shotguns, but only certain people having handguns and sniper rifles, please explain why.

When you consider that explanation, please also explain why your arguments for regulating sniper rifles or RPGs don't apply to hunting rifles.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

kps said:


> Hyperbole on top of hyperbole.
> 
> Times change? What does that mean? And where did I state that we should all "carry"? Please read...and if you're capable, understand what is written in my post.


 
Well, you sorta baited everyone, with that open-ended question. Didn't you?

You didn't say what your opinion was. You just asked an open-ended question that could have a million replies.

My answer to your question is, no I do not think only cops should carry guns. I think hunters and farmers should be able to own rifles and shotguns to shoot wildlife according to hunting seasons set out by the responsible authorities. I think no-one in Canada except police should own a pistol at home. That army people can carry rifles and pistols when on duty at work and thesee should not be taken off base. Canadians who own firearms legally should have them locked up with a trigger lock or in a cabinet, unloaded.

I probably missed a few loopholes in my statement, but that sounds about right.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> *No reason to believe this will see a jury*, but if it does it will present an interesting dilemma for jurors.
> 
> Find him guilty and it may prove to be death sentence. Putting a cop in prison is about the same as painting a target on his back.
> 
> *OTOH set him free and at least the TO constabulary may view the precedent as a license to kill.* I know if some nosy neighbour sees the tomato plants in my front window, and tips the cops I am running a grow-op; I would not want Officer Forcillo or his like answering the call.


Unless he pleads guilty to a lesser charge or makes some other sort of plea bargain of course it will... Not quite sure where you are getting this from.

This is quite frankly a ludicrous statement. So if my neighbor fools around on his wife and gets away with it that means I am more likely to do the same? Maybe among miscreants and the morally challenged, but among "normal" folk not so much.

Your post to me suggests that you hold our various police forces in less than high regard.

So if that is the case who exactly do you propose as an alternative to enforcing the laws of the municipalities, provinces and the feds?

Just interested to know what you see as a viable alternative.

It is all too easy to criticize without walking in another person's shoes and I highly doubt that you have the "beat" experience of any cop in any city in Canada and yet you are willing to criticize without any constructive alternative. So just how do you see the problem being solved?


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Kosh said:


> Well, you sorta baited everyone, with that open-ended question. Didn't you?
> 
> You didn't say what your opinion was. You just asked an open-ended question that could have a million replies.
> 
> ...


Well actually cops aren't allowed to take their service pistol home. AFAIK, no off duty carry allowed. I have more handguns at home than most cops. LOL Not to say that there aren't LEOs out there who belong to the sport shooting community and own plenty of guns. A cop wanting his own handgun would have to have the same license and follow the same laws and regulations as me. 

I don't think applying a double standard to firearms ownership is going to solve gun issues in our society. That is the point in the end.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

Kosh said:


> As far as I know anyone who is approved by the police to have a firearms license, can have a firearm. So what are you implying by this statement? It's a rather open ended question. Are you implying people in Canada should have guns to "protect themselves"? When you say firearms, are you implying people in Canada should have pistols?


Absolutely, people should be allowed to have pistols - and they should be allowed to own them for self defense, not just target shooting.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see readily available concealed carry permits in my lifetime.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

John Clay said:


> Absolutely, people should be allowed to have pistols - and they should be allowed to own them for self defense, not just target shooting.


Absolutely. I don't think saying it's "just for targets" does the arguments for guns any justice.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

John Clay said:


> Absolutely, people should be allowed to have pistols - and they should be allowed to own them for self defense, not just target shooting.
> 
> *Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see readily available concealed carry permits in my lifetime.*


excellent. I'll take our gun murder numbers over the states any day.


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

After watching all the videos online and keeping track of the media news stories, I feel it all still leads to more questions then answers.

My first question is, why was ETF (Emergency Task Force) Not called in? if they were, why did the city police not wait for them? I was always under the impression that they were good at these kind of incidences within this city of Toronto. Secondly, anyone who has ever travelled on a Toronto Street Car knows how to disable it, just pull the back cable out of the wire above and that TTC vehicle is not going anywhere, doesn't take much to pull on it and it pops out of the circuit and halts the streetcar from moving. So I don't buy that argument from the Toronto Police if it has been used. Thirdly, I thought that police were taught how to disarm a person with a knife in hand without using their guns first? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it isn't taught for city police and only in the military. Lastly in all the videos, you see both doors wide open on the street car, back doors are open and front doors are open. Yet, you only see a pile of cops surrounding the front doors and one shooting his gun like a crazy man. At no point do you see any of them try to enter the back doors after the first 3 shots, or after a total of 9 shots. Although I did read that one of them did enter in the rear later, but then I wonder if that was the one who ended up tasering the young man?

Would this young man still have been shot at 9 times if he didn't have a knife on him? When you watch the videos, a couple of those cops standing on the outside of the street car with their guns drawn look scared for their lives. It shows in their poster and the way they are standing. It was one man with a knife, not a gun. 

Very Sad.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

John Clay said:


> Absolutely, people should be allowed to have pistols - and they should be allowed to own them for self defense, not just target shooting.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see readily available concealed carry permits in my lifetime.


Yes, that way Canada can become the next Texas, where you can be shot for being black and wearing a hoodie, or looking at someone the wrong way, and the shooter claiming self defence, gets away with it. 

No thanks, that's not my Canada.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Kosh said:


> Yes, that way Canada can become the next Texas, where you can be shot for being black and wearing a hoodie, or looking at someone the wrong way, and the shooter claiming self defence, gets away with it.
> 
> No thanks, that's not my Canada.


Uh that's Florida, different Bush baby territory. However being black in Texas is still occasionally a capital offense.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

Wow. The cops hit him with 8 of the 9 shots. That's shocking in and of itself.

Sammy Yatim shot 8 times on TTC streetcar | Toronto Star


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

I see that now that charges have been laid he is suspended *with *pay. Will the city demand their money back should he be convicted???


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Toronto police Chief Bill Blair slammed by SIU head*



> The man in charge of Ontario’s police watchdog agency issued a strong rebuke Thursday against Toronto police Chief Bill Blair, saying the city's top cop is not doing enough to ensure his officers co-operate with investigators.
> 
> Speaking Thursday on CBC Radio’s Metro Morning, Special Investigations Unit director Ian Scott said he’s flagged 106 cases in which he believes Toronto officers fell short of their mandated obligation to co-operate with SIU investigators.
> 
> ...





> Scott's comments on Metro Morning sparked a response from Mark Pugash, Toronto police spokesperson.
> 
> In a statement to CBC News, Pugash said Toronto's police chief has no legal obligation to respond to the SIU director.
> 
> ...


(CBC)


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Just saw this on globe and mail : Ontario woman, 80, fractures hip after being struck with police taser - The Globe and Mail

It doesn't give any details. But... And 80 year old woman? Really?


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Just saw this on globe and mail : Ontario woman, 80, fractures hip after being struck with police taser - The Globe and Mail
> 
> It doesn't give any details. But... And 80 year old woman? Really?


She must have been scolding the officer something fierce.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I guess!

Unfortunately she fell and broke her hip, which is never good at that age.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Every once and a while.

Toronto Police Officer Charged in Shooting Death of Sammy Yatim Ordered to Stand Trial | news | Torontoist



> By Graeme Bayliss
> Constable James Forcillo, the Toronto police officer charged in the shooting death of Sammy Yatim, has been ordered to stand trial on a charge of second-degree murder.
> After a two-day preliminary hearing that ended today, it was determined that there is enough evidence for a trial. Forcillo is set to appear in court on July 30 to arrange a trial date, likely for 2015.
> The shooting occurred on July 27, 2013, when an officer fired nine shots at 18-year-old Yatim, who was alone on a TTC streetcar and armed with a small knife. Yatim was struck eight times before another officer Tasered him as he lay on the floor of the streetcar.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

eMacMan said:


> Every once and a while.
> 
> Toronto Police Officer Charged in Shooting Death of Sammy Yatim Ordered to Stand Trial | news | Torontoist


Glad to see this going forward. And the officer who tasered Yatim after he had 8 bullets in him? No charges for excessive force?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> Glad to see this going forward. And the officer who tasered Yatim after he had 8 bullets in him? No charges for excessive force?


The full weight of the law should fall on those who abuse their powers of enforcing the law. He too should be charged at least with assault with a deadly weapon.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Absolutely. I'm glad to see that no special treatment was afforded the officer.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Glad to see this going forward. And the officer who tasered Yatim after he had 8 bullets in him? No charges for excessive force?





SINC said:


> The full weight of the law should fall on those who abuse their powers of enforcing the law. He too should be charged at least with assault with a deadly weapon.


Don't recall the taser tagger ever having been identified. At the time they were unaware of the video. Perhaps the taser blast was so James Forcillo could falsely claim he had tried to taser Sammy, then shot him when the taser didn't phase him? Only explanation I have been able to come up with.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

CubaMark said:


> Glad to see this going forward. And the officer who tasered Yatim after he had 8 bullets in him? No charges for excessive force?





SINC said:


> The full weight of the law should fall on those who abuse their powers of enforcing the law. He too should be charged at least with assault with a deadly weapon.





Macfury said:


> Absolutely. I'm glad to see that no special treatment was afforded the officer.


Agreed. Based on what we know from video evidence the officer overreacted and should be held accountable.

It will be interesting to see what defence the officer's lawyers can mount to defend him as the video evidence is quite damning.

I suspect most likely there will be some sort of plea bargain pressed for by his defence lawyers, I just hope the crown doesn't go for it and makes sure a full trial is conducted.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*James Forcillo guilty of attempted murder in streetcar shooting of Sammy Yatim*







A jury has found Toronto police Const. James Forcillo guilty of attempted murder in the 2013 shooting death of Sammy Yatim, but not guilty of second-degree murder. 

Forcillo faced two charges related to the shooting death of 18-year-old Yatim on a streetcar in 2013.

The jury believed Forcillo was justified in firing the first three shots at Yatim. This is reflected in the not guilty verdict for second-degree murder. The jury found Forcillo was not justified in the second round of shots at Yatim, hence guilty of attempted murder.​
(CBC)


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

This was a senseless shooting and the officer deserves the sentence he will get. That kid was zero threat to him when he fired the first round and adding so many more rounds, especially when he was down ands already dead was totally unnecessary. One bad cop removed is a good thing.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I am still unclear how you can be charged with "attempted murder" if the victim dies.


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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2004)

SINC said:


> This was a senseless shooting and the officer deserves the sentence he will get. That kid was zero threat to him when he fired the first round and adding so many more rounds, especially when he was down ands already dead was totally unnecessary. One bad cop removed is a good thing.


I couldn't disagree more. Yatim was holding a knife, with his willy out, with a crazy look in his eyes. He refused to comply with the officer's demands and made a move toward him. I think it was quite likely 'suicide by cop'. Yatim brought this on himself.

Craig


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

WCraig said:


> I couldn't disagree more. Yatim was holding a knife, with his willy out, with a crazy look in his eyes. He refused to comply with the officer's demands and made a move toward him. I think it was quite likely 'suicide by cop'. Yatim brought this on himself.


To borrow your words, *I couldn't disagree more* with your position.

Forcillo had many other options open to him. Read the incident report.

I also disagree with the judge that the first three bullets - the ones that put him down - were justified.

The "attempted murder" charge (I agree, MacFury - very odd) is for the shots he made while Yamin was bleeding out on the floor of the bus, which were unnecessary. Yamin was no longer a threat to anyone.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Macfury said:


> I am still unclear how you can be charged with "attempted murder" if the victim dies.


This requires a logic process similar to common core math. The first shots that killed him were somehow justified, which requires a very elastic imagination on the part of the jury. The follow up volleys clearly could not be justified. Since none of those shots would have been fatal and Yatim was still barely alive, then clearly Forcillo at that point was attempting to murder Yatim.

I would disagree with the part about the original volley being justified, but I was not on the jury.

Whether or not Forcillo manages to weasel out on an appeal, I hope this will be sufficient leverage for TO to fire the bum!


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Macfury said:


> I am still unclear how you can be charged with "attempted murder" if the victim dies.


Yeah I found that odd too. When the guy is dead, you'd think it would be mission accomplished. Murder.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

The wording of the ruling boggles the mind of anyone who did not spend years in law school. However, the gist of it is, as I have always felt, that the first shots were justified...(beyond a reasonable doubt) and the second rounds were not. The officer over-reacted and should be held accountable for his lack of control.

The knife wielding hijacker was shot because he did not drop his weapon when ordered to by police. Whatever mental state put him there is of more concern to his family, than to the general public. This should have been handled better on all sides, but I am not losing sleep over it.

Mental illness (if that is what it was) needs help and understanding...until you threaten others with weapons.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

For the nth time, not immediately obeying a cops order should not be a capital offense. 

No one was in immediate danger. There are a myriad of possible reasons the order was not instantly followed, mental illness or deficiency, deafness, bad drugs, not understanding English.... 

If a cop feels threatened by someone not instantly obeying his commands, that cop should be pounding the pavement as a job seeker.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Ombudsman’s report slams police training as the problem*

_People in crisis like Sammy Yatim are dying not because cops don’t follow the rules, but because they do, says Paul Dubé’s report, which makes 22 recommendations to change that._

Nabil Yatim believes that if police officers in Ontario received more training on how to use words instead of weapons, his son Sammy would be alive today.

“I’m almost positive he would be,” Yatim told reporters at Queen’s Park Wednesday, following the release of a much-anticipated investigation by Ontario’s ombudsman into how the provincial government trains and directs police on use of force.

Sammy Yatim’s high-profile death in July 2013 at the hands of Toronto police Const. James Forcillo prompted ombudsman Paul Dubé’s investigation. Since Yatim’s death, 19 more people have been shot dead by police in Ontario. In many cases, they were people in crisis, Dubé writes in his report.

In a biting indictment of police training, Dubé’s report concludes that people in crisis are dying at the hands of police not because officers aren’t following their training. “It’s because they are.”

His 90-page report makes 22 recommendations, ranging from ramping up training to calling on the province to create a regulation requiring police to use de-escalation techniques in all possible conflict situations — before resorting to force. The report calls for that regulation to be in place by this time next year.

“The issue of how police are trained to handle situations of conflict with people in crisis is not a matter of academic debate. It is literally a matter of life and death, and one that has been neglected in this province for too long,” Dubé said at a news conference.​
(Toronto Star)


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I respectfully disagree in this case. The officer popped off in a situation where most officers would not have.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Not at all adequate. Still waiting to learn the actual sentence. Hopefully the judge will go for the longer sentence recommended by the prosecutor.



> Toronto police Const. James Forcillo will be sentenced to at least five years in prison for the attempted murder of Sammy Yatim, the 18-year-old shot dead aboard a streetcar in July 2013.
> 
> Ontario Superior Court Justice Edward Then opened sentencing Thursday by saying he had no choice but to sentence Forcillo to at least the five-year minimum for attempted murder.
> 
> ...


https://ca.news.yahoo.com/toronto-police-const-james-forcillo-090000342.html


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Six Years. 

Still waiting to hear if the judge will let him roam free while he drags out the appeals for a few more years.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_A sign that the message has gotten through to the rest of the force?_

*Man with knife on TTC bus apprehended after 5 hours of negotiation*









Emergency task force members successfully helped coax an armed man who Toronto police describe as "in crisis" off a bus in North York Saturday after five hours of negotiation.

Const. Allyson Douglas-Cook told CBC News that police were called to Steeles Avenue West and Tangreen Court just after 12 p.m. Saturday about reports of a man wielding a knife on the 60 Steeles West TTC bus headed to Finch subway station.

The bus driver and passengers were able to get off the bus and contain the man on it until police arrived, she said.

A doctor, along with a negotiation team, reasoned with the man for several hours before managing to safely coax him off the bus and apprehending him under the Mental Health Act.

None of the initial calls indicated that anyone on the bus had been threatened, Douglas-Cook said

"We're really thankful that it ended in the way that it did," she added.

The man was taken to a medical facility for treatment. It's unclear if any charges will be laid.​
(CBC)


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