# Turn-by-turn GPS apps coming...but at a cost?



## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

This article on MSNBC says what we all know.
TomTom has something in the works and Garmin is also interested.

But what struck me was this:
_Garmin offers a $99-a-year “Garmin Mobile” plan for GPS-equipped smartphones, including certain models of Research In Motion’s BlackBerry and Samsung’s Blackjack._

A yearly subscription? Perhaps, I'm out to lunch, but is that the way turn-by-turn GPS is offered on mobile phones? 

I'd love to have this on my iPhone but not at $99/yr. when standalone GPS units run $150 (or less) with no annual fees.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

generally, yes.. you have to pay for it on cell phones.. which I totally disagree with. I can say for certain if they pull the same greedy move for the iPhone I won't be go for it. GPS should be free.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

GPS is free.. it's the maps you're paying for. TomTom and Garmin as well as Magellan all spend a lot of time updating their maps and this costs money. I believe in a 1 time fee to get your first set.. if you want to update your maps in the future, you pay again. It shouldn't be subscription based.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

A-GPS uses data, which isn't free.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

HowEver said:


> A-GPS uses data, which isn't free.


Data usage fees charged by Rogers or Fido are not the issue here.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

satchmo said:


> Data usage fees charged by Rogers or Fido are not the issue here.


Okay, but some of the services use A-GPS and data may be an issue then. That is, you are less likely to pay for a GPS application and maps if you don't have data and can't use a main feature like A-GPS.


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## miniphone (Jul 24, 2008)

satchmo said:


> This article on MSNBC says what we all know.
> TomTom has something in the works and Garmin is also interested.
> 
> But what struck me was this:
> ...


sounds great, but the antenna is tiny on the iPhone and reception is crap. I doubt this would work as good as $150 Garmin or TomTom GPS


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Vexel said:


> GPS is free.. it's the maps you're paying for. TomTom and Garmin as well as Magellan all spend a lot of time updating their maps and this costs money. I believe in a 1 time fee to get your first set.. if you want to update your maps in the future, you pay again. It shouldn't be subscription based.


We're actually on the same page here, I'm not saying the GPS navigation software should be free.



HowEver said:


> A-GPS uses data, which isn't free.


It uses EDGE/3G and Wifi to assist in locating but it hardly uses actual data. The only data really used is by Google Maps.

If we're offered REAL offline maps and navigational software, I would pay for it, like $20 or so. If I want to get updated maps, sure, a small fee for that.

- *GPS* - is free to use when you buy a GPS device, and that's what the iPhone should be as well. We pay enough monthly already, charging for yet another service each month is just a blatant rip off.

I feel the same way about Blackberry using Telenav.

It just slows everything down as well if you have to access the data network to download maps and use that feature. What if you're in an area that doesn't have decent data coverage, but you still get a GPS signal?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

kloan said:


> We're actually on the same page here, I'm not saying the GPS navigation software should be free.
> 
> 
> It uses EDGE/3G and Wifi to assist in locating but it hardly uses actual data. The only data really used is by Google Maps.
> ...


Um, no. "It uses EDGE/3G and Wifi to assist in locating but it hardly uses actual data." Also, GPS apps aren't necessarily free to use; some do have subscription costs however unfair you may think that is.

Wifi isn't network data. Edge/3G are network data. They aren't free.

A-GPS uses small amounts of data in order to lock in your location, about 5-6K.

I found a good description:



> The A-GPS feature does have the potential to cost you some more data in the following situations:
> 
> - You activate it, but can't get satellite lock. It will request that 5KB of data every minute or two.
> 
> ...


Here is what Nokia says about A-GPS:



> What does A-GPS cost?
> Downloading assisted data involves the transmission of some amounts of data through your service provider’s network. Typically getting the GPS connection with A-GPS requires less than 10kB of data being transferred.
> 
> All data transmission costs are paid by the user. Outside your home cellular network, that is, while roaming, the costs may vary. Contact the service provider for information about data transmission costs.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Sorry, I'm confused.

Your reply has a corrective tone, yet you're not contradicting my post.

I said it _hardly_ uses data. 4 or 5k would substantiate that comment. I know very well data isn't transmitted through Wifi when the GPS is locating, it still uses it regardless so I included it in the sentence.

Like I said, it uses the towers and wifi to help locate you, apparently to make connecting to the GPS satellites quicker (in theory, I have yet to see it actually work _quickly_). Really only the data that's used is when loading the maps, meaning _mostly_ used by Google Maps.

If people don't have a data plan whatsoever, they're still going to be able to use the GPS software, it just won't be as effective, and will be slower locating them.

You can still use the GPS with data and wifi turned off. It just works like crap. But I don't see this software being marketed to people without data plans.

Oh, and perhaps I'm completely in the dark here, but what consumer GPS devices on the market require a subscription? And why would any smart consumer purchase one of those, when they can easily buy a GPS device that works for *free*?


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## chimo (Jun 9, 2008)

This is an interesting thread. I don't have an iPhone, but I have owned a couple of GPSes. My latest is a Garmin. I have purchased a few map sets for it, however, the data does get stale. I wish they had a yearly subscription for map updates at a reduced rate from the full package. 

It seems what is being charged for is the "assisted" GPS signal (through your carrier) that is operated independently of the GPS constellation. This charge may also cover fresh map sets. 

The GPS function could use the Google Maps application if they could operate at the same time. Google keeps their maps fairly "fresh".


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

chimo said:


> This is an interesting thread. I don't have an iPhone, but I have owned a couple of GPSes. My latest is a Garmin. I have purchased a few map sets for it, however, the data does get stale. I wish they had a yearly subscription for map updates at a reduced rate from the full package.
> 
> It seems what is being charged for is the "assisted" GPS signal (through your carrier) that is operated independently of the GPS constellation. This charge may also cover fresh map sets.
> 
> The GPS function could use the Google Maps application if they could operate at the same time. Google keeps their maps fairly "fresh".


So will the new software come with an actual GPS plugin, or will it access the aGPS built in (which uses data)... Monthly subscription AND data charges ain't cool.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

chimo said:


> It seems what is being charged for is the "assisted" GPS signal (through your carrier) that is operated independently of the GPS constellation. This charge may also cover fresh map sets.


How it works with Telenav, is that you're charged $9.99 a month for the privilege of using their maps. Blackberry intentionally cripples the GPS so that you can only use it by subscribing to the Telenav service. It's just a cash grab.

The software should be made available, at a price. Once we have it installed, we should be able to use our iPhones as they're intended, without additional service fees.

The way things are going though, it looks like they're going to try to team up with Rogers/Fido and force us to pay for the service.

I'm pretty sure it's safe to say this will be a failure. I think most people will agree it's just not worth it to pay another $10/month for it.


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## Flipstar (Nov 7, 2004)

Well won't be any use in Toronto, if they decide to ban GPS devices in the Fall.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Flipstar said:


> Well won't be any use in Toronto, if they decide to ban GPS devices in the Fall.


They can kiss my you know what if they try to pull that BS. Frickin lobbyists drive me nuts.... ban cell phone use, fine. That's good. Hands free is FINE. So is GPS. Ugh... some people.......


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## val23 (Jun 29, 2008)

uhh.. GPS does NOT use data... try it yourself. 
I have data blocked and GPS can still triangulate my position..... its just on a blank screen b/c loading the maps via google require data. 
I loaded the maps via Wifi before leaving the house making sure my route was loaded before i left. Upon leaving, GPS was able to track me along the route... NO DATA.. i have it blocked.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

A-GPS and GPS are different things.



val23 said:


> uhh.. GPS does NOT use data... try it yourself.
> I have data blocked and GPS can still triangulate my position..... its just on a blank screen b/c loading the maps via google require data.
> I loaded the maps via Wifi before leaving the house making sure my route was loaded before i left. Upon leaving, GPS was able to track me along the route... NO DATA.. i have it blocked.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

HowEver said:


> A-GPS and GPS are different things.


We know. That's why I'm asking if they supply us with a dongle for Real GPS.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

The difference between GPS and A-GPS is software.

It's still a GPS chip, so a dongle wouldn't be necessary. The GPS chip would still be useful, however it all depends on how they program the software. If they code it in such a way that it will only work with data turned on, then those without are screwed.. as well, it would certainly limit the GPS functionality.

It's all kinda pointless speculating to this degree though.. probably better to just wait it out and see what's released.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

kloan said:


> The difference between GPS and A-GPS is software.
> 
> It's still a GPS chip, so a dongle wouldn't be necessary. The GPS chip would still be useful, however it all depends on how they program the software. If they code it in such a way that it will only work with data turned on, then those without are screwed.. as well, it would certainly limit the GPS functionality.
> 
> It's all kinda pointless speculating to this degree though.. probably better to just wait it out and see what's released.


I have my doubts. If a real gps chip was in there, why wouldn't they use it? Why aGPS?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Elric said:


> I have my doubts. If a real gps chip was in there, why wouldn't they use it? Why aGPS?


Because A-GPS is "Assisted."


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

HowEver said:


> Because A-GPS is "Assisted."


LOL, you are awesome at pointing out the obvious!
So yeah, if they do this, they'll supply the GPS dongle. Then charging the subsciption makes sense, cost subsidy. If they use the built in aGPS then they'll have arguments. Unless they let us use the google maps for free.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Elric said:


> LOL, you are awesome at pointing out the obvious!
> So yeah, if they do this, they'll supply the GPS dongle. Then charging the subsciption makes sense, cost subsidy. If they use the built in aGPS then they'll have arguments. Unless they let us use the google maps for free.


I used Google Maps (downloaded the app via wifi, and maps via wifi) on a Rogers Nokia N95 with a $7 unlimited data plan. This plan uses the gorogers.com/goam.com APN. Assisted GPS uses internet.com through Rogers. I turned off A-GPS and was therefore never charged extra data fees. On my iPhone, A-GPS isn't a problem because I have the $30/6GB data plan.

A-GPS will only use a handful of kb, through internet.com, to get bearings. But if you do not have a data plan, and make a few trips, you can easily double your regular monthly fees.

iPhones don't need dongles. They have the GPS radio built in. It doesn't matter what maps you use if you are downloading local maps on the fly, which even Google Maps will do. There is data involved, and the subscription services likely won't download all info to the phone before you travel. You'll need maps on the fly. Access to them might very well require a subscription, and downloading them will incur data charges unless your plan covers it.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Elric said:


> I have my doubts. If a real gps chip was in there, why wouldn't they use it? Why aGPS?


It is used.. it just sucks.

Hopefully new software will make it work a lil better..


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## ruffdeezy (Mar 17, 2008)

That article is a repeat from a month ago when this issue was discussed. Basically the app store says these apps aren't allowed. Hopefully we do get something for $10-20. $99 is redonkulous.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

HowEver said:


> They have the GPS radio built in.


I haven't opened mine up, but according to Apple.ca... no it doesn't.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

So what external GPS do you use instead? I just use the internal GPS.

iPhone - Technical Specifications - Apple Canada



Elric said:


> I haven't opened mine up, but according to Apple.ca... no it doesn't.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Elric said:


> I haven't opened mine up, but according to Apple.ca... no it doesn't.


Sorry, where exactly did you find this information?


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

The iPhone has an A-GPS chip... it is a FULLY functional GPS except that it is a low power chip, so it needs to ride on your cell signal in order to boost power.
The TomTom software will use this chip and it will work just fine, assuming you have a cell signal.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

kloan said:


> Sorry, where exactly did you find this information?


I was going by the link he posted.

Under the GPS heading, it only had assisted listed...


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## AgentXXL (May 2, 2008)

To further clarify, the iPhone 3G uses an Infineon Hammerhead II PMB2525 aGPS receiver. It is a highly sensitive aGPS chip designed for indoor use and/or in 'deep urban' (dense city) areas.

http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/PMB252...71e07&fileId=db3a304316f66ee8011782518d4a1e08

The guys at iFixit were kind enough to post a full breakdown of the iPhone 3G and this image is clearly labelled with all the chips comprising the iPhone 3G logic board:

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/iPhone3G/images/XiuvbfUecK3GsDUm-standard.jpg

What does this mean for a turn-by-turn GPS application? It's fully capable, but the real issue is whether Apple will allow such an application through the App Store. Time will tell...


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

kevleviathan said:


> The iPhone has an A-GPS chip... it is a FULLY functional GPS except that it is a low power chip, so it needs to ride on your cell signal in order to boost power.
> The TomTom software will use this chip and it will work just fine, assuming you have a cell signal.


Thats what I figured it was. So it will still use Data. Even a small bit (that adds up FAST on Rogers) or large bit if they have sat maps like Google.

My point is that you get double charged if they make you pay a monthly/yearly. What makes their maps better and worth the price than Googles relatively free ones? I don't need turn by turn (if you have to subscribe to get it), plus I'm betting a dollar there will be one on Cydia soon enough. All they really need is to add audio (simple text to speech) to read the directions as you approach them in GM...


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

AgentXXL said:


> To further clarify, the iPhone 3G uses an Infineon Hammerhead II PMB2525 aGPS receiver. It is a highly sensitive aGPS chip designed for indoor use and/or in 'deep urban' (dense city) areas.
> 
> http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/PMB252...71e07&fileId=db3a304316f66ee8011782518d4a1e08
> 
> ...


Yet it works like s*** indoors. Go figure.

Their 3G chip isn't so hot either... great company there.... making a lot of promises it can't deliver.


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## AgentXXL (May 2, 2008)

kloan said:


> Yet it works like s*** indoors. Go figure.
> 
> Their 3G chip isn't so hot either... great company there.... making a lot of promises it can't deliver.


I've had the opposite experience... and was quite surprised when it gave me a fairly accurate location from inside my condo. I guess the urban sprawl of Calgary works in my favor, whereas the urban density of Toronto works against you.

Such as it is, I've also found the accuracy of the 3G iPhone to be very good when compared against an older Garmin eTrex and a Sirfstar III Bluetooth dongle for use with my Windows Mobile PDA. And the iPhone usually provided an accurate location well before the other 2.

If you have poor results with your iPhone, it may be worth comparing to someone else's in the same vicinity. That will determine if it's unit specific or a problem with reception in your area. If it turns out it's specific to your unit, Apple will likely replace it for you.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

AgentXXL said:


> I've had the opposite experience... and was quite surprised when it gave me a fairly accurate location from inside my condo. I guess the urban sprawl of Calgary works in my favor, whereas the urban density of Toronto works against you.
> 
> Such as it is, I've also found the accuracy of the 3G iPhone to be very good when compared against an older Garmin eTrex and a Sirfstar III Bluetooth dongle for use with my Windows Mobile PDA. And the iPhone usually provided an accurate location well before the other 2.
> 
> If you have poor results with your iPhone, it may be worth comparing to someone else's in the same vicinity. That will determine if it's unit specific or a problem with reception in your area. If it turns out it's specific to your unit, Apple will likely replace it for you.


Yeah mine works like a dream inside and out. Which is why I'm wondering, would anyone PAY for a feature we already have that works nearly perfectly just to add a voice to the written directions?


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## Maverick (Sep 18, 2007)

Google Maps and its direction listing works just fine for me. I'm really surprised how good it is... I use it at least a few times a week so far - which is far, far more than I would have expected.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

Maverick said:


> Google Maps and its direction listing works just fine for me. I'm really surprised how good it is... I use it at least a few times a week so far - which is far, far more than I would have expected.


Me too actually, but it seems this week if I am on Wifi it thinks I am 30 minutes east in the middle of the 401! That'd be dangerous! So I have to make sure my wifi is turned off to use any location based Apps.


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## bmovie (Jan 18, 2003)

I dont think I would pay for this, what I want is preloaded maps, (I dont have a data plan) so when I use the gps feature it will have the maps all ready on the phone not needing to download anything via cell data or wifi

Thats more what I want.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

bmovie said:


> I dont think I would pay for this, what I want is preloaded maps, (I dont have a data plan) so when I use the gps feature it will have the maps all ready on the phone not needing to download anything via cell data or wifi
> 
> Thats more what I want.


It'll still use a WEEE bit of data to pinpoint your location via cell towers.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

Does GPS actually use data? I was under the impression that the A-GPS chip only piggy backs itself onto the back of the cell signal and communicates directly with the satellites, therefore using up no data at all. The only data required is to load the maps.

I could be wrong though.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

kevleviathan said:


> Does GPS actually use data? I was under the impression that the A-GPS chip only piggy backs itself onto the back of the cell signal and communicates directly with the satellites, therefore using up no data at all. The only data required is to load the maps.
> 
> I could be wrong though.


It cost me almost 50MB to go a few hours up north. It definitely uses data.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

But were you using Google Maps?
I'd like to test somebody who has data completely blocked... if my theory is correct the GPS would still work but the maps wouldn't load.


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## koreancabbage (Aug 1, 2008)

kevleviathan said:


> But were you using Google Maps?
> I'd like to test somebody who has data completely blocked... if my theory is correct the GPS would still work but the maps wouldn't load.


yes, GPS still works but the maps don't load cuz of the need for data to refresh the map


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## bmovie (Jan 18, 2003)

I dont have data and my gps works....I just cant see the maps.

That's why I would like my maps preloaded on the phone so I don't need to download them and use data,

so no the gps doesnt' use the data per say, data is used only because the maps are being downloaded/streamed to your phone via 3G, 2G or Edge


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## Dominator (Aug 18, 2008)

*I have'nt tryed this myself but if you feel up to it, this is from another site. Its not clear whether you must have a jailbroken phone to do this even though the user did.*

Hey, 

If this post doesnt meet the rules of Whirlpool please be free to remove the parts that arnt allowed. I tried my best to make sure all of the files are from legal sources. 

NOTE: I have used a fw 2.01 Jailbroken device to write this tutorial so it may not work with other versions of fw. 

This tutorial will allow you to make a cache of google maps and then use them when you do not have and wireless connection available or when you dont want to spend $$ on data charges...This is very useful and easy to use and i highly recommend it. It currently doesnt have the functionality to search streets and POIs so its just like a street directory that is in your pocket. 

1. First of all you need to have a jailbroken iPhone or iPod and you should know how to SSH into your device. 

2. Download the "OfflineMaps", App from Cydia by using the Search Menu. 

3a) I have pre-made Sydney's Maps so if you dont want to spend the time re-making them you can download my copy links at the bottom of the post. 

3b)If you wish to make maps for your own area download Global Map Download Tool (link below), extract it and then open "/GMDL/bin/debug/Global Map Download Tool.exe" 

Note: This is sourced from Code: 
in7ane.com 
and is freeware. 
Code: 
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting 


Once downloaded and running the program navigate to the area that you want to cache and click on the " Preview 1x", button to see what it would look like. 
In the Preview it doesnt matter if there is alot of surrounding area that you do not want on your map or if the area you want isnt centered in the preview you can fix all this in the next step. 

After you are satisfied with your preview click on "Download The Map", and make a new folder where you want to save the temp map files and select it, (A folder on desktop is the easiest). 
It will now break the map u selected into tiles and you can uncheck the parts you do not want to make the map size smaller. 
You should also uncheck the 1x and 2x Zoom boxes because as you can see in the size preview they will dramatically reduce the size and they are useless as you cannot see any extra detail. 

Once you have done that click on the massive selection button on the top and let it download. 

Once it has downloaded click in the ->iPhone Button and click on "Process". 

Once that has finished you have created your Cache File. 

4a) In this step you can SSH into your device or use DiscAid, SSHing a Large map file takes along long time so i suggest you use DiscAid which is alot faster 

Download and install DiscAid (Link Below), and then on the left hand side under "Media" folder, there is a "Maps", folder. If there isnt one there click on the Media Folder which is the very first one on the left side and then click "Create Folder", and then name it "Maps". 

Note: DiskAid is a Freeware, 100% free of charge. 
Code: 
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting 


In this maps folder make a folder which is <4 letters long that corresponds to the map you have made. If you have Maps for London make a folder called "Lond" or if you have maps for New York name it "NY". It just has to be short. 
In that folder copy "com.apple.Maps.plist", and "MapTiles.sqlitedb". 

5a) Now open the "OfflineMaps", app on ya device and see if the maps show up on the list. If they do everything has worked great, otherwise trackback and see if you have made a mistake. 
If your maps are there, select it and then press the "copy Maps", button and wait till it says "Done" and it may take a while (NOTE: DO NOT LET THE DEVICE LOCK ITSELF as you will have to start copying again, you can set unlock time as unlimited when u plan to copy maps). Dont Press "Done", just press the home key and the OfflineMaps icon should have the letters of the map u selected on it. 
Now fire up maps and you should be able to browse freely. remember to turn off network access when you are browsing out side of the cached area. 

NOTE: You still cant search using the cache files as that is still in development so hang tight. 

IPHONE 3G USERS: If the MapsOffline Maps app crashes you can attempt to fix it by navigating to /var/stash/ and change the permissions of the folder python.2.5.????? and all files underneath it as CHMOD 775 or drwxr-xr-x ,????? is different for each iPhone/iPod. 
I suggest that you SSH into the device using Filezilla or WinSCP as the DiscAid isnt capable of doing this. 

I hope you guys understood what i wrote above, please ask questions if you dont know what i am talking about in any of the previous steps and i will answer your questions as best as i can... 

Thanks and Enjoy 

SYDNEY MAPS (Created using GMDL)( Coverage area Code: 
http://i37.tinypic.com/10omvy8.jpg 
) 

Code: 
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting 
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting 
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting 


A Special thanks to "Nambrot", the person who created this great iPhone app and the person who made the map caching program.. 
NamBrots site: Code: 
Presenting Maps Offline


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

kevleviathan said:


> But were you using Google Maps?
> I'd like to test somebody who has data completely blocked... if my theory is correct the GPS would still work but the maps wouldn't load.


LOL... yes, the maps DO come in handy when using the GPS to find somewhere you are looking for. I doubt you'd even be able to find the locations if your data is off.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

bmovie said:


> I dont have data and my gps works....I just cant see the maps.


Really? I don't have data either. 
So I turned off my wi-fi at home, but couldn't get any list directions let alone any maps. It says 'no internet connection'


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

You WONT get maps. You will get a blue dot telling you where you are. But the maps won't show.


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## bmovie (Jan 18, 2003)

satchmo said:


> Really? I don't have data either.
> So I turned off my wi-fi at home, but couldn't get any list directions let alone any maps. It says 'no internet connection'


At home when I am connected to my wifi, the maps do come in, and the gps works fine, why won't yours?


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

bmovie said:


> At home when I am connected to my wifi, the maps do come in, and the gps works fine, why won't yours?


You misunderstand. I can obviously get maps and direction when connected to wi-fi. 

Just checked again, when I turn wi-fi OFF, GPS seems to work, as I get a blue dot and one 'map' of where I am. The dot moves ever so slightly as my house isn't that big.


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## Elric (Jul 30, 2005)

Dows anyone know how to calibrate the gps for wifi? Mine does work at all on wifi. It says I am in the middle of the 401 on the far side of Kitchener. 
It does this wether I am at home or at work on wifi.
It's rather frustrating on ALL location based Apps.


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