# 03/18/2011 - ehMac Mac Poll - Hot Button Issue: Do you pirate Mac software?



## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Going to heat things up on a nice spring-like Friday. Here's today's poll: Do you pirate Mac software? (Remember, poll responses remain anonymous)

No doubt many of us will have strong feelings on this issue. If so inclined, feel free to discuss this topic, but keep posts and replies respectful and directed at the issue, not directed towards any particular member with personal comments or insults.

IE: You don't have to respect someone's stance on the subject, but you can't show disrespect to the person who holds the view. 

Let's give it a try, shall we?


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Me...I pay for my software. I only need a few of the big heavy duty expensive types. The rest are more than affordable. With Adobe, I usually skip an upgrade to save a few bucks. Same with FileMaker Advanced. MS Office, my 2008 version will probably be used until it dies and it will not be upgraded.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

No need to pirate Mac software especially Apple software since one gets good value for the money.

I think Microsoft specifically created their own problems in that respect years ago with way over priced software that is full of bugs as I can see on the software we use in the office (fully paid for with a corporate license).

It's sort of odd - if one buys any product that doesn't do what it claims to do, the consumer has the legal right to return it for a refund - not so with software it seems.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2011)

I pay for the majority of the software that I use these days. The stuff that I don't pay for I tend to get for free from the companies in question through one place I work for -- we get Library copies of all the latest and greatest big software suites direct from the creators most times through some sort Apple program we belong to.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

Old OS 7.x - 8.x games back in '98 - '99 which were, back then, not available at retail anywhere. Then I discovered eBay which ended the tedious task of searching and downloading on super-slow dial-up internet speed. :love2:

I downloaded, but never redistributed.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

As a developer I can tell this makes my blood boil. I stop there. TGIF.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Joker Eh said:


> As a developer I can tell this makes my blood boil. I stop there. TGIF.


Sorry - what makes your blood boil?
You obviously replied to something, but what? You're not very clear on that.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

krs said:


> Sorry - what makes your blood boil?
> You obviously replied to something, but what? You're not very clear on that.


On the topic of the post and survey - "Do you pirate Mac software?"

I thought is was very clear as a I stated I am a developer.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Joker Eh said:


> On the topic of the post and survey - "Do you pirate Mac software?"
> 
> I thought is was very clear as a I stated I am a developer.


Does the fact that there is a poll about it make your blood boil or just that pirating exists?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Just a nitpicky little comment on this poll. Availing yourself of pirated software doesn't make one a pirate, redistribution makes one a pirate. I think most people understand this but just a point of clarification in case there was any misconception.

The difference is like that of being a thief and someone who knowingly buys the stolen goods. Both are illegal but they are not the same thing.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

screature said:


> Does the fact that there is a poll about it make your blood boil or just that pirating exists?


That pirating exists and people do it and the rational they use to justify buying or distributing it.



screature said:


> Just a nitpicky little comment on this poll. Availing yourself of pirated software doesn't make one a pirate, redistribution makes one a pirate. I think most people understand this but just a point of clarification in case there was any misconception.
> 
> The difference is like that of being a thief and someone who knowingly buys the stolen goods. Both are illegal but they are not the same thing.


Sorry I have to disagree they are the same. If someone holds a person down while his friend kicks the person, they are both charged with assault for the same crime for the same incident.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Joker Eh said:


> That pirating exists and people do it and the rational they use to justify buying or distributing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I have to disagree they are the same. If someone holds a person down while his friend kicks the person, they are both charged with assault for the same crime for the same incident.


Your analogy is not relevant in that it does not reflect the nature of the crime being committed in piracy and those who avail themselves of those goods. When you buy a stolen or pirated product you are only an accessory *after* the fact and not an active accomplice. 

They aren't the same and the differ greatly in law. It will be especially more so if Bill C-32 finally becomes law (not likely though now). But even now in the law the penalties for redistribution for commercial gain far outweigh those for the purchasers of those pirated products.


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

Now that most software has a lite version or a trial period there is very little call for pirating for me. 

If I find I am using it I am happy to pay for it. 

There is some irony in the app store where I find my self having to buy several variations of the same type of app to try them out before settling on the one best. THAT can make MY blood boil (except they are so frigging inexpensive that it is really not a problem. I just feel bad for the vendor of the 'good' app)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I used to pirate software long ago so I could better learn software and such, but I've since purchased all of my applications. I don't even bother pirating music and movies anymore--It came to a point that finding reliable sources is a pain in the ass and since I could afford it now, why bother?


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## vancouverdave (Dec 14, 2008)

On that note. I think posting reviews is very important. I have lapsed in this and shall do better. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

I used to do it all the time in my PC days as free demos were almost non-existent and it was easy to find ftp sites where you could "share" software once you learned the "secret knock". This was all before bit torrent. 

In the end I ended up not using 99% of the software and then if I really liked something I would end up buying it because the "cracked" and "hacked" version of what ever it was were generally unstable and flaky.

Since being on a Mac I buy all my software.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

screature said:


> Your analogy is not relevant in that it does not reflect the nature of the crime being committed in piracy and those who avail themselves of those goods. When you buy a stolen or pirated product you are only an accessory *after* the fact and not an active accomplice.
> 
> They aren't the same and the differ greatly in law. It will be especially more so if Bill C-32 finally becomes law (not likely though now). But even now in the law the penalties for redistribution for commercial gain far outweigh those for the purchasers of those pirated products.


you are splitting hairs. If you buy or receive stolen property/goods you are just as guilty as the person you received or purchased it from.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Joker Eh said:


> you are splitting hairs. If you buy or receive stolen property/goods you are just as guilty as the person you received or purchased it from.


Nope it is is just a matter of the law. And I disgree as to the level of guilt and so does the judicial system that is why the penalties are so very different.

In your scenario the addict is as guilty as the dealer in the drug world.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

screature said:


> Nope it is is just a matter of the law. And I disgree as to the level of guilt and so does the judicial system that is why the penalties are so very different.
> 
> In your scenario the addict is as guilty as the dealer in the drug world.


Yep, no addict, no dealer. Simple.


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## tendim (Apr 6, 2004)

This poll needs another option: "I pirate software to see if it suits my needs, then delete it if not, or purchase it."

Sometimes the "demo" or "crippled" versions of software aren't enough to gauge it's true usefulness. SilverFast and to a lesser extent VueScan are great examples - I couldn't purchase either one because their demo's didn't give me the functionality I needed to evaluate if it would be useful to me.

And by "purchasing" do you mean purchasing orginal installation media, or purchasing it from the supplier? E.g., if I buy a copy of OS X 10.4 installation DVDs have I purchased it or pirated it? This is really a grey area b/c some software such as OS X has no serial number / license that can be transfered when buying/selling on the used market.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Joker Eh said:


> Yep, no addict, no dealer. Simple.


Not really... and the law certainly doesn't see it that way either. Anyway, we will be going round and round in circles if we keep this going and neither of us are going to change our minds so it is probably better that we just agree to disagree. Peace.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

joker eh have you purchased every single song in your itunes library? same with video and tv?


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

tendim said:


> This poll needs another option: "I pirate software to see if it suits my needs, then delete it if not, or purchase it."


I'd agree on this.

Years ago, in OS 8.1 & my Power Center Pro 240 days, I purchased a grab bag of computer stuff on eBay. One of the things not noted in the sale was a handful of software CD's with no S/N's. I did a search on a few of the titles, figgered that one of them may be useful to me (don't even recall what it was anymore...), learned about & visited a couple of warez sites, picked up a password & uploaded the software. 

Ran the software a short while, decided I liked it, purchased the full newest version & ran it for a couple of years. When OS10 came along the software wasn't supported & I just let it go by the wayside.

That being said, there is much software out there that has a fully functional demo with limitations put on saving files, either by not being able to save the finished product or by saving it with a watermark. Perhaps this is in response to "crippled", something less than full featured demo software.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

broad said:


> joker eh have you purchased every single song in your itunes library? same with video and tv?


Yes. every single one, every single movie/tv show, I can show you the dvd's and cd.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

tendim said:


> This poll needs another option: "I pirate software to see if it suits my needs, then delete it if not, or purchase it."


Thats like going to a car dealer and taking a car from lot, and then if you feel like after whatever time you need you call the dealer and say "I stole the car on your lot and now I am ready to purchase it"

makes no sense

If a software package demo does not provide you the info you need, you can email/call vendor for information.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Joker Eh said:


> As a developer I can tell this makes my blood boil. I stop there. TGIF.


Funny.... I used to pirate a lot more software when I was a developer (as did all my developer friends) but now that I'm a regular ol' user who wants to think as little about the tech part as possible I don't bother.  I have no idea what all the my tech buddies do anymore.

Of course, that was around when I switched to Mac. I think most if not all of the Windows software I ever used were cracked versions. 

Since moving to Mac, I've paid for the OS and software, but considering that consists of a) 1 accounting package purchased 8 years ago, b) MS Office (purchased once by me, and then for 2008 I used a multi-user license purchased by my mom), and c) $10 Snow Leopard upgrade that I should get around to installing. Oh, and some ~$20 Photo Recovery software of some kind for when my dad's camera card went all weird.

These days, it's just way easier to buy it and install it than hunt down a decent cracked version. Plus, I'm just not as interested in collecting random software for the heck of it anymore.


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## Amiga2000HD (Jan 23, 2007)

I've purchased all the software I'm using. The caveat is that I'm still using some older software because I haven't bought upgrades for Photoshop CS, which I bought years ago but don't use enough to justify upgrading to the CS 5 version. I haven't upgraded Microsoft Office either and use it so little that it isn't even installed on my Mac Pro. I'm still on Final Cut Studio 2 because Studio 3 broke some workflow and I don't want to re-engineer it until the next version of the suite comes out. So I'm fully legitimate software-wise if not completely up to date.

Oh, and I bought all the music and TV shows/movies in my iTunes library too. The CDs and DVDs are on my shelves. I've never bought content from iTunes. Sorry Steve, that iTunes store, that's a bag of hurt.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I download and install trial versions, then decide whether to buy or not. I always buy family packs of all Apple software since I share it with our daughter who lives with us. I own a fair bit of software, like Fusion, Parallels (which I gave to my son when I bought Fusion), Toast, Drive Genius, RapidWeaver, Office 2011, etc. and try to buy when on sale.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Joker Eh said:


> If a software package demo does not provide you the info you need, you can email/call vendor for information.


Really????

If you do that you either get no reply at all or a canned reply that is totally unrelated to the question.
The only time I ever got a proper answer to a question about some software I wanted to purchase is with a very small German company that made specialized software for a hobby of mine. And that's because I ended up speaking to the developer himself.

The vendor (as in reseller) of the software usually doesn't have a clue when it comes to specific details and on the manufacturer's side one can't get to the people who really know the software - even the tech support is often outsourced to a group that only knows the very basics.
Apple in that respect is better than most - trouble is that I don't have problems with Apple software so good support on their end doesn't buy me anything.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

The economic effects of piracy are not equal to those of theft. The ability to infinitely and perfectly copy information poses a unique situation where pirating a piece of software does not deprive the seller of a copy to sell to someone else. I think price is the main motivating factor for piracy.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> Thats like going to a car dealer and taking a car from lot, and then if you feel like after whatever time you need you call the dealer and say "I stole the car on your lot and now I am ready to purchase it"
> 
> makes no sense
> 
> If a software package demo does not provide you the info you need, you can email/call vendor for information.


Car = physical object
Software = intellectual property

Because you're a developer, you see them as equals. However, in the real world, they are very different things, and as Screature has expressed, the law sees it that way as well.

What it comes down to is software is time. It isn't built out of steel and wires and plastics and glass. There is nothing tangible about software that equates it to a car or any other material goods.

When someone downloads and installs a pirated copy of software, what have they actually done to rob you? They've clicked some buttons. Do you know they've done the act? Is there something missing from your possession? All you have to go on is a theoretical dollar amount of losses you claim is because of pirating.

Best to stick to analogies that make sense. Which in this case, there aren't any except for other intellectual properties.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

kevleviathan said:


> The *economic effects of piracy are not equal to those of theft*. The ability to infinitely and perfectly copy information poses a unique situation where pirating a piece of software does not deprive the seller of a copy to sell to someone else. I think price is the main motivating factor for piracy.


Not quite sure I know what you mean by that. But piracy is not only about software, it is also about movies, games and music. On a world wide scale I would be willing to bet that piracy is of a far greater economic scale than actually physical theft. Piracy in Asia is worth billions of dollars.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

FWIW, for my poll, in my head I was thinking of "Pirate" as downloading and keeping software without paying for it. I realize now, the technical term is for those who profit from it. Not sure what the word is for what I was thinking, but that's what I meant with the poll. 

I also think its irrelevant that one is a product that is crafted out of physical properties and the other is a product that is crafted with ones and zeros. They are both products, one is just easier to take than the other.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

ehMax said:


> I also think its irrelevant that one is a product that is crafted out of physical properties and the other is a product that is crafted with ones and zeros. They are both products, one is just easier to take than the other.


You're forgetting about a key element here.

When you "buy" a physical product, you become the owner, with software you purchase a license to use the software, you never actually own the software.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> When someone downloads and installs a pirated copy of software, what have they actually done to rob you? They've clicked some buttons. Do you know they've done the act? Is there something missing from your possession? All you have to go on is a theoretical dollar amount of losses you claim is because of pirating.


this is wrong. its not a theoretical amount at all. its the amount of one license of his software.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

kloan said:


> Car = physical object
> Software = intellectual property
> 
> Because you're a developer, you see them as equals. However, in the real world, they are very different things, and as Screature has expressed, the law sees it that way as well.
> ...


LOL, please I have heard all these arguments before and I am sorry the law does not think otherwise. Screature can have his own opinion but software is property, all you get is a license to use it, it’s not yours, period. You didn't pay for it.

Right, software = time???, please you have no idea. I put as much work into what I do as you do into your job, even more, more often than not I work 7 days a week, 18 hour days to get a project done, do you work for free?? now your boss comes to you and says they will have to let you go because someone stole all the products/services and now they can't pay you for the work you did. Hmmm. See idea have a nice time on the unemployment line.

You have no right to steal someone else's property/idea/work because they didn't provide enough information to you so you can decide if to buy it or not. Its not yours to decide.

My money is missing thats what is missing, and before you chime in and say the theif would never buy the product anyways, well good wouldn't want them as a customer.

if you use/have something that you didn't pay for that you should have payed for, I equate you to a car thief, house buglar, just a plain old criminal.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I have a hard time coming to terms with that. It's more than time…*software is something that is constructed. It may not be bricks and mortar, but there is a tangible: The cost to produce it and the demand for such a product.

A program is no less tangible than a movie or a song, IMO. Programs can be a tool, or a form of entertainment. If there was no value to programs, nobody would want it. End of story. They can be infinitely beneficial. Companies are known to use pirated software for their own gain. Without it, they would be worthless.

When someone steals software, they rob someone of their livelihood. The person created that program because there was demand for it. It's a business venture. Their hope is to have people buy it so the author can continue.

If software engineering was simply putting in time, then _everyone_ would do it. It's far more complicated than that. It takes a person with a high degree of skill to make it happen. Video game developers have teams and budgets that often rival that of movie studios. Development takes YEARS. Further to that, there are people behind the scenes that also contribute to the process--artists, administrators, project managers, marketing, etc. All of this requires resources.

One could argue that it doesn't matter… the developer won't get your money anyway. But why should you be allowed to use whatever you want for doing absolutely nothing?

It's not like I'm physically stealing it…
Corporations have too much money as it is…
It's not like they're losing any money…
There's no real value…

The age of entitlement in a nutshell.



kloan said:


> Car = physical object
> Software = intellectual property
> 
> Because you're a developer, you see them as equals. However, in the real world, they are very different things, and as Screature has expressed, the law sees it that way as well.
> ...


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

krs said:


> You're forgetting about a key element here.
> 
> When you "buy" a physical product, you become the owner, with software you purchase a license to use the software, you never actually own the software.


That's not entirely true. It depends on the EULA. Some software has severe restrictions, others not so much.


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

MannyP Design said:


> The age of entitlement in a nutshell.


Speaking of entitlement, I love it when folks who've pirated my software products demand timely support.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

Joker Eh said:


> Right, software = time???, please you have no idea. I put as much work into what I do as you do into your job, even more, more often than not I work 7 days a week, 18 hour days to get a project done, do you work for free?? now your boss comes to you and says they will have to let you go because someone stole all the products/services and now they can't pay you for the work you did. Hmmm. See idea have a nice time on the unemployment line.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


This is what I was talking about. It is not necessarily the case that your product isn't selling because too many people are pirating it.


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## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

I do find it interesting that Joker_eh has expressed that someone trying out the software to see if they like it and purchasing the product is unacceptable. I get the point, but it sounds like Joker_eh would rather not make the sale. This bring us to the complaint about sales not being high enough, due to pirating and possibly other leading to layoffs.

I find that this black and white approach is a little too narrow viewed. I don't think that pirating is something that should be done, but I do understand why it is, except for cheap-o's.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

ertman said:


> I do find it interesting that Joker_eh has expressed that someone trying out the software to see if they like it and purchasing the product is unacceptable. I get the point, but it sounds like Joker_eh would rather not make the sale. This bring us to the complaint about sales not being high enough, due to pirating and possibly other leading to layoffs.
> 
> I find that this black and white approach is a little too narrow viewed. I don't think that pirating is something that should be done, but I do understand why it is, except for cheap-o's.


What?????????????? I said no such thing, re-read.

I said if the developer does not provide a demo or disables features in the demo that does not give you the right to steal it.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

ehMax said:


> *FWIW, for my poll, in my head I was thinking of "Pirate" as downloading and keeping software without paying for it. I realize now, the technical term is for those who profit from it. Not sure what the word is for what I was thinking, but that's what I meant with the poll. *
> 
> I also think its irrelevant that one is a product that is crafted out of physical properties and the other is a product that is crafted with ones and zeros. They are both products, one is just easier to take than the other.


Just for the record, I understood that is what you meant Mr. Mayor, but just for clarity sake I wanted to clearly define what piracy is for those who may not appreciate the differences in law.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

jfpoole said:


> Speaking of entitlement, I love it when folks who've pirated my software products demand timely support.


ahaha the fun i would have in that sitiuation...oh man

"well sir, there is one way to fix that. first you're going to need to boot from your install disc. you'll do that by inserting the disc and rebooting the computer holding option. when you see the "install disc" icon, then just arrow over to it and hit enter. once the machine boots go up to the menu bar, to the "utilities" drop down. choose "disk utility". once you're in there choose the item at the top left hand corner, should be called "Macintosh HD" then go to the "Erase" tab. no, no sir...don't worry...I am just having you "erase" the problems you are having!! yes, sir. absolutely sir i know what im doing!! so..yeah...are you in there? perfect. if you look near the bottom you'll see a button for "security options"...you see it? great. press it, choose "7 pass erase", the click "ok" then just hit the "erase" button and in a few hours alllllllllllllllllllll your troubles will be gone."


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

jfpoole said:


> Speaking of entitlement, I love it when folks who've pirated my software products demand timely support.


I feel like banging my head against the wall for you.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> LOL, please I have heard all these arguments before and I am sorry the law does not think otherwise. Screature can have his own opinion but software is property, all you get is a license to use it, it’s not yours, period. You didn't pay for it.
> 
> Right, software = time???, please you have no idea. I put as much work into what I do as you do into your job, even more, more often than not I work 7 days a week, 18 hour days to get a project done, do you work for free?? now your boss comes to you and says they will have to let you go because someone stole all the products/services and now they can't pay you for the work you did. Hmmm. See idea have a nice time on the unemployment line.
> 
> ...


lol, defensive much?

My point is that it's not the same as stealing a car. I wasn't arguing that it was an acceptable thing to do, nor that it doesn't harm the people that created it.

You steal a car from a lot, it's gone. That actual, physical thing has now gone and can never be sold by that dealer.

Someone downloads a copy of software, music, movie, whatever, that is just a digital copy, it doesn't take away from an inventory. You're still free to sell your product to honest folk who can afford the cost.

And yeah, I know time = money.. but how do you know someone has 'stolen' your software? You have estimates, projections, etc.. you don't have anything missing, nothing lost, except $$ which you may or may not have received. Totally different thing from stealing a car, breaking into someone's home (come on, seriously? you can get shot for doing that). Would you shoot someone who downloaded a pirated copy of software or a movie?

Still waiting for a realistic analogy.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

jfpoole said:


> Speaking of entitlement, I love it when folks who've pirated my software products demand timely support.


I have had one of those calls, got to the point he gave me phone number, address, and name so I could send him the latest install disc again with latest version.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I find 99.9% of companies provide enough information about a product to see if it will be suitable, especially when one can search for an abundant amount of reviews and articles on software these days. 

When I bought a new vacuum for the house, Google provided me with tons of information. There's even forums just on vacuums and forums specifically on the brand I bought. 

It's not like I needed to go to the store and steal a vacuum and try it for a week to see if it worked out or not. 

Maybe in really rare cases if it was some obscure software for a very specific purpose that no one on the internet could answer, but other than that...


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

I'm with Joker Eh!
I'm also a developer and we need to eat too. 
Seriously, not to be rude or mean, but we also have bills, and perhaps a family.
Maybe by you're terms you're not a pirate, but a thief isn't a stretch.

And before people ask if I have ever pirated or stolen anything, I'll say yes. 
Certainly when I was younger. As I grew older I became morally convicted.
So I deleted everything. Anything I wanted still I bought. I couldn't do it all at once, but I since have.
Probably been good since around 2003, and that's how I voted.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

kloan said:


> lol, defensive much?
> 
> My point is that it's not the same as stealing a car. I wasn't arguing that it was an acceptable thing to do, nor that it doesn't harm the people that created it.
> 
> ...


 defensive, why wouldn't I be, its my business, my livelyhood, what puts bread on the table, you get it?

Sorry I see it as the same, $25,000 for car or $25,000 for software license. Same to me. The guy who takes the software just took $25,000 out of my pocket.

You are trying to split hairs and look at inventory, what does inventory have to do with it? Ford pushes out copies fo the same car over and over again, I push out copies of my software program over and over again. Same to me.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Nick said:


> I'm with Joker Eh!
> I'm also a developer and we need to eat too.
> Seriously, not to be rude or mean, but we also have bills, and perhaps a family.
> Maybe by you're terms you're not a pirate, but a thief isn't a stretch.
> ...


Joker Eh has made many posts regarding this issue... in what particular aspects are you "with" him?

Being called a thief for downloading something that someone else has made freely available on the net IS a stretch. As I said before the difference is like that between being a junkie and a dealer... the difference is huge.

If you don't build it no one can come.


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

By the way, as a whole this poll makes me happy.  
Out of the 46 people who have voted thus far:
73% of people by their software
5% if people steal everything
23% of people steal and pirate. If I split this group in half (50% stolen / 50% bought)


Which makes:
84.5% if software is bought
15.5% is stolen.

So if people are being honest. That makes me happy. I would of imaging it more 66/33%
Buy that being said 15.5% is still to much. Imagine of 15.5% of physical good were stolen.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> defensive, why wouldn't I be, its my business, my livelyhood, what puts bread on the table, you get it?
> 
> Sorry I see it as the same, $25,000 for car or $25,000 for software license. Same to me. The guy who takes the software just took $25,000 out of my pocket.
> 
> You are trying to split hairs and look at inventory, what does inventory have to do with it? Ford pushes out copies fo the same car over and over again, I push out copies of my software program over and over again. Same to me.


Holy crap man, what you do you develop that's worth that much?

Anyway, the difference as I see it, is that you don't know someone has downloaded a copy of your software. It's left to your imagination, wondering how many people out there are using your software without paying for it.

A car lot manager goes out to the lot and sees the car missing, and says f***, a car's missing! (though at least they have insurance for that sort of thing)

I don't think I'm splitting hairs. The act of downloading pirated wares doesn't take a criminal to do. Comparing that to someone who steals a car or breaks into someone's home is just wrong. Imagine the kind of person that does something like that. That's more than just a case of poor judgment.


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## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

Joker Eh said:


> now your boss comes to you and says they will have to let you go because someone stole all the products/services and now they can't pay you for the work you did. Hmmm. See idea have a nice time on the unemployment line.





tendim said:


> This poll needs another option: "I pirate software to see if it suits my needs, then delete it if not, or purchase it."





Joker Eh said:


> Thats like going to a car dealer and taking a car from lot, and then if you feel like after whatever time you need you call the dealer and say "I stole the car on your lot and now I am ready to purchase it"
> 
> makes no sense
> 
> If a software package demo does not provide you the info you need, you can email/call vendor for information.





Joker Eh said:


> What?????????????? I said no such thing, re-read.
> 
> I said if the developer does not provide a demo or disables features in the demo that does not give you the right to steal it.


Did you re-read your posts??????????????! Being a little dramatic aren't we. So quoting your replies, my original statement seems fairly correct?


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

There is a massive difference: the car dealer loses an asset (worth $25,000) while the software company does not lose any assets. The car dealer can no longer sell the car that was stolen.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> .... now your boss comes to you and says they will have to let you go because someone stole all the products/services and now they can't pay you for the work you did. Hmmm. See idea have a nice time on the unemployment line.


Ok, see the problem with that is this: If piracy has actually bankrupted your company, you either had a crappy product, or it wasn't priced according to market demand & the price people are willing to pay.

Perhaps pricing your software at $25,000 is the first thing to look at.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

these are mostly the same ridiculous arguments people made in favour of "sharing" music back when napster took off. 

they were horsesh1t then and they're still horsesh1t now.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

ertman said:


> *I do find it interesting that Joker_eh has expressed that someone trying out the software to see if they like it and purchasing the product is unacceptable. I get the point, but it sounds like Joker_eh would rather not make the sale.*


Here is your post, you tell me where I would find it unacceptable? did I say that? no where did I say the above.



ertman said:


> Did you re-read your posts??????????????! Being a little dramatic aren't we. So quoting your replies, my original statement seems fairly correct?


Nope. Even all those quotes you provided did I say what you mention.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

broad said:


> these are mostly the same ridiculous arguments people made in favour of "sharing" music back when napster took off.
> 
> they were horsesh1t then and they're still horsesh1t now.


Nope, still pretty damn relevant. Don't price a CD at $25 so people would be more willing to purchase them.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

I don't think we are arguing whether it's right or wrong, in favour or not in favour, simply that the effects of piracy aren't the same as theft.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

jfpoole said:


> Speaking of entitlement, I love it when folks who've pirated my software products demand timely support.


I hope you have a method to deal with it??

Like, here's an "update" for you to download and try and it will fix your problem - but the "update" is just a disguised "un-installer" or crippling application. ;-)

Sort of Poetic justice for non payment of software used.

Opps: I missed #44 suggestion that was already posted. Sorry, but just another milder method.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

kloan said:


> Ok, see the problem with that is this: If piracy has actually bankrupted your company, you either had a crappy product, or it wasn't priced according to market demand & the price people are willing to pay.
> 
> Perhaps pricing your software at $25,000 is the first thing to look at.


When did I say I was bankrupt? Or I had a crappy product?


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

screature said:


> Joker Eh has made many posts regarding this issue... in what particular aspects are you "with" him?
> 
> Being called a thief for downloading something that someone else has made freely available on the net IS a stretch. As I said before the difference is like that between being a junkie and a dealer... the difference is huge.
> 
> If you don't build it no one can come.


But who made it "freely" available. Do you mean downloading via torrents?

If the vendor gives software away as a demo, or free for 30 days (and then expires) etc.. thats all well and good.

But as for torrents, or websites allowing you to download other peoples software:
If I rob a store, and then start giving items for free (especially if you know it's not mine) you are still in possession of stolen goods. Now imagine I regularly rob stores, as do others, and we start gathering in a mall parking lot to switch and give away our stolen goods. Are the goods any less stolen? At the end of the day, the goods are still stolen. You didn't pay for them, the vendor was never compensated. Just because it's not a "hard" good doesn't mean it's not stealing and it's a victimless crime.

Now I don't want to sound all extreme and like an arse.
I just think people should pay for what they own.
If it costs to much, or you think it's overpriced, then don't buy it. But please don't steal it.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

jfpoole said:


> Speaking of entitlement, I love it when folks who've pirated my software products demand timely support.


See, here is where the car analogy would work.

Someone who's using a pirated copy of software and calls for support is like bringing a stolen car in for warranty service.


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

kloan said:


> Nope, still pretty damn relevant. Don't price a CD at $25 so people would be more willing to purchase them.


What about a rolex? They're expensive. That that give people the right to steal them?


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

If I want, in some cases, I can take the software for a test drive. To extend the car analogy, I can also pull up to a dealership & take a car for a test drive, too.

In some cases, I cannot take the software for a test drive (foolish on behalf of the programmer as far as I'm concerned). This was the case for my single particular instance and why I used a cracked code to try it out. It wasn't commercial software that I ran it for months & made money from, it was a utility of some sort that I tested a couple of times & then purchased.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> When did I say I was bankrupt? Or I had a crappy product?


When your boss is firing you because your "software was all stolen/pirated", it's probably a good indication that your company is in financial trouble.

If that actually happened (not to you specifically, it's an example I was suggesting), chances are your (again, not you specifically) product wasn't marketable for various reasons and should probably go back to the drawing board (if it hasn't been repossessed yet).


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Nick said:


> What about a rolex? They're expensive. That that give people the right to steal them?


Can you download a Rolex? They're expensive for a reason. Why is a CD $25 when it could easily be $10 (as it usually is now in digital download).

Often people spent thousands on purchasing CDs, many of which ended up being CRAP. I know back in the day I used to spend a small fortune on buying CDs, only to find out most of the songs were crap and felt like my money was wasted.

If I could actually afford to buy a Rolex, I don't think I'd get it home and think, aww man, the diamonds in the face are ugly, I don't like this thing.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

FeXL said:


> If I want, in some cases, I can take the software for a test drive. To extend the car analogy, I can also pull up to a dealership & take a car for a test drive, too.
> 
> *In some cases, I cannot take the software for a test drive (foolish on behalf of the programmer as far as I'm concerned). *This was the case for my single particular instance and why I used a cracked code to try it out. It wasn't commercial software that I ran it for months & made money from, it was a utility of some sort that I tested a couple of times & then purchased.


It may be foolish to not provide a demo, I can be in agreement with you on that but it was the developer choice, and though you did eventually purchase the product, sorry you were wrong to crack it.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

kloan said:


> When your boss is firing you because your "software was all stolen/pirated", it's probably a good indication that your company is in financial trouble.
> 
> If that actually happened (not to you specifically, it's an example I was suggesting), chances are your (again, not you specifically) product wasn't marketable for various reasons and should probably go back to the drawing board (if it hasn't been repossessed yet).


Clarification finally thank you. 

But sorry still doesn't give someone the right to steal/crack/pirate the software.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

WOW!! I think the Mayor hit a few nerves with this poll and it looks like it may be a heading for a record breaker by the number of posts already. ;-)


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

kloan said:


> Can you download a Rolex? They're expensive for a reason. Why is a CD $25 when it could easily be $10 (as it usually is now in digital download).


The same could be said lets say of a video game, why are they $60 and not $20? 

Price is not an excuse to steal.

Have a good weekend all. TGIF.


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## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

Joker Eh said:


> Here is your post, you tell me where I would find it unacceptable? did I say that? no where did I say the above.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Even all those quotes you provided did I say what you mention.


You do find it unacceptable. I don't believe I quoted you saying its unacceptable, I don't really need to, It is implied in well, all of your responses, but lets use the following two, as they relate most closely to my original point. 



> Joker Eh
> Thats like going to a car dealer and taking a car from lot, and then if you feel like after whatever time you need you call the dealer and say "I stole the car on your lot and now I am ready to purchase it"
> 
> makes no sense


And 



Joker Eh said:


> What?????????????? I said no such thing, re-read.
> 
> *I said if the developer does not provide a demo or disables features in the demo that does not give you the right to steal it.*


My original statement is still correct, or are you saying that it is acceptable in the event that the person later decides to purchase it or trash it, which would be the opposite of the original statement.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> Clarification finally thank you.
> 
> But sorry still doesn't give someone the right to steal/crack/pirate the software.


lol, not saying it does!

I'm not about to say distributing or using pirated software is someone's right, but no matter how many analogies we use, or how many opinions we exchange, I'll never see it as severe as the act of stealing a real object.

With that argument you're assuming that one is always going to be deprived of that particular sale. Well, as much as people hate to admit it, chances really are that the majority of people that use pirated software never would have purchased it if there were no pirated versions available.

Guess there's really only two sides of the fence here.

Maybe those same people don't steal cars because they know they probably can't get away with it. Maybe more people would steal cars if there was no risk of getting caught.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

kloan said:


> Maybe those same people don't steal cars because they know they probably can't get away with it. Maybe more people would steal cars if there was no risk of getting caught.


I like that quote and its the truth.


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

kloan said:


> Can you download a Rolex? They're expensive for a reason. Why is a CD $25 when it could easily be $10 (as it usually is now in digital download).
> 
> Often people spent thousands on purchasing CDs, many of which ended up being CRAP. I know back in the day I used to spend a small fortune on buying CDs, only to find out most of the songs were crap and felt like my money was wasted.
> 
> If I could actually afford to buy a Rolex, I don't think I'd get it home and think, aww man, the diamonds in the face are ugly, I don't like this thing.


If you think the music is crap. Don't buy it (in the case of your CD's).
If a rolex could be downloaded it would still be stealing if Rolex never sold it (or a licsend dealer etc..).

I think we're talking about the value of a product here. A case could be made in any sector. How come you can but a new Hyundai car for $10K and a new Harley is double that? Shouldn't the car be worth more? It's an open market and people get to set their own prices. It's up to you if you want to buy it. 

In the case of CD's your cutting out the middle man with digital downloads. No transportation costs, distributors etc. That's innovation making things cheaper.

Am I making sense? As I said, I don't want to sound like an arse.
But software is a product too. Just like a rolex there is lots of design and R&D time. There are still cost to be recovered, and profits to make, even if it can be remade and sold cheaply. 

It comes down to value. If you don't like it, or think it's to expensive don't buy it.

Does that make sense?


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

That is definitely true. [edit: re joker's last post]

I think if piracy were somehow impossible, open source software would get a huge boost.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

pm-r said:


> WOW!! I think the Mayor hit a few nerves with this poll and it looks like it may be a heading for a record breaker by the number of posts already. ;-)


:clap: I love the fact that its a hot button issue, it's being discussed from all sides, and pretty much no personal mud-slinging. :clap: :clap:

It is possible to hold strong opinions either way on controversial topics, get out your thoughts and opinions, without directing insults to the ehMacian holding the opinion. :clap:


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Nick said:


> If you think the music is crap. Don't buy it (in the case of your CD's).
> If a rolex could be downloaded it would still be stealing if Rolex never sold it (or a licsend dealer etc..).
> 
> I think we're talking about the value of a product here. A case could be made in any sector. How come you can but a new Hyundai car for $10K and a new Harley is double that? Shouldn't the car be worth more? It's an open market and people get to set their own prices. It's up to you if you want to buy it.
> ...


The result of getting something for nothing is the same, however one can argue there are still victimless crimes (if one doesn't know they've been stolen from). However, I do agree that there is value in any 'product', and as such 'stealing' that product, as in getting it for free, as opposed to paying for it, is the same regardless of what it is. Should the penalty be the same? I don't think it should.

Though in response to your comment about the CDs; this was before you could actually listen to the CD before buying it. All a person had to go on was a song or two they heard on the radio or Much Music. It wasn't til the CD was opened (and non-returnable) that one could actually hear the whole CD, and ultimately decide if it was worthy of remaining in the collection.


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

kloan said:


> I'm not about to say distributing or using pirated software is someone's right, but no matter how many analogies we use, or how many opinions we exchange, *I'll never see it as severe as the act of stealing a real object.*
> 
> With that argument you're assuming that one is always going to be deprived of that particular sale. Well, as much as people hate to admit it, *chances really are that the majority of people that use pirated software never would have purchased it if there were no pirated versions available.*
> 
> ...


I think you're right. People don't see soft goods as the same as stealing hard goods. But the truth is there is little difference. Someone still had to make it, and that costs money. They have a right to prosper from their work.

And you're right about the cars too. Some people just want everything for free. They probably wouldn't pay for anything if they could. But it still costs someone somewhere.

I'd like to leave this on a happy note. 
I hate arguing. So let me wish everyone a good weekend. I'm going to head back to work now - don't worry, I have my own business, so I'm not stealing my bosses time. 

I'll probably check in again later.
Cheers!
Nick


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

ehMax said:


> :clap: I love the fact that its a hot button issue, it's being discussed from all sides, and pretty much no personal mud-slinging. :clap: :clap:
> 
> It is possible to hold strong opinions either way on controversial topics, get out your thoughts and opinions, without directing insults to the ehMacian holding the opinion. :clap:


I think in general, people have learned how to communicate online without making it personal (well, at least on this forum).

I know for me, it's been an uphill struggle to learn that.. :lmao:


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Joker Eh said:


> I like that quote and its the truth.


I came up with that by asking myself if I would steal a car if there was no risk getting caught, and truthfully, I probably would.

lol, j/k... 

well... maybe a Lamborghini.. though, I couldn't afford the gas.


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## Vexel (Jan 30, 2005)

I'm pretty neutral on the position, but I'm enjoying reading the responses. I do purchase my software and other things such as music and video.. however, I'd be lying if I said that I'd never downloaded "free" copies before. 

I do agree that in some cases, developers or artists, etc.. are absolutely charging too much for some of the stuff that's digital only. I mean, they have every right to do so, but I believe that high prices mostly push people to download things illegally... especially when they've gotten burned before, as in CD sales. It doesn't give people the right to do it, but I understand.

It's going to be while, I think, before things are really running smoothly enough to curb piracy in any major degree, but I like to think that mostly everyone would pay for things if they find value in it... especially if it's something that's bringing money in for themselves.

Cheers folks, have a great weekend!


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## ertman (Jan 15, 2008)

I wouldn't steal a car even if I wouldn't get caught. I like to take pride in owning the software/media. I can easily download illegal copies, but I would rather pay for it. 

With all this said, I do think some (but not most) piracy is based on price, hence student versions of software were created.


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

pm-r said:


> I hope you have a method to deal with it??
> 
> Like, here's an "update" for you to download and try and it will fix your problem - but the "update" is just a disguised "un-installer" or crippling application. ;-)
> 
> Sort of Poetic justice for non payment of software used.


As much as I find these requests frustrating (ehMax knows of what I speak) I find the best way to deal with these requests is to address the problem. There's a chance the problem could affect other customers in the future, so by dealing with it now I'm avoiding problems in the future.


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

Vexel said:


> I do agree that in some cases, developers or artists, etc.. are absolutely charging too much for some of the stuff that's digital only.


Funny you say that, as I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I have begun work on a software service which will be sold on a monthly subscription. I'm struggling with how much to charge. What's a fair price?

I've been looking around, and I see this everywhere. What is something worth? Hard goods, softgoods, services etc. Costs are all over the map. Sometimes I look at things and wonder how they can sell it so cheap. Other times I look and wonder how they charge so much.

So you ask a good question Vexel.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> That's not entirely true. It depends on the EULA. Some software has severe restrictions, others not so much.


I never mentioned anything about the level of restrictions, that's irrelevant.
I'm talking about the "L" in EULA, that stands for "*license*" in case someone doesn't know.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

ertman said:


> I wouldn't steal a car even if I wouldn't get caught.* I like to take pride in owning the software/media.* I can easily download illegal copies, but I would rather pay for it.


You know, this is something I really agree with. 

My iTunes library is a real thing of pride for me. As is my video library, and the software titles I own. (Er... Licence) 

It's funny, Jon Bon Jovi said something idiotic the other day how iTunes and Steve Jobs is destroying the music industry, because people can't save up and buy an album and have the mystery of taking it home or something like that. 

I strongly disagree, I look forward to going shopping on iTunes and clicking that buy button and going all home share on it.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I'm not condoning piracy of any software but what bugs me is that software seems to be the only product where the manufacturer has no responsibility to either provide what they advertise or to provide a customer with the quality of product they expect.

It's a one-way street - the customer buys the software for a specific purpose and if it doesn't perform the function that is advertised or is full of bugs - too bad. 
MS Office 2011 for Mac is a good example, full of bugs with essentially no recourse by the customer.
Any piece of hardware with a similar number of flaws would have been returned by the customer and rightly so.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Joker Eh said:


> As a developer I can tell this makes my blood boil. I stop there. TGIF.





Nick said:


> Funny you say that, as I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I have begun work on a software service which will be sold on a monthly subscription. I'm struggling with how much to charge. What's a fair price?
> 
> I've been looking around, and I see this everywhere. What is something worth? Hard goods, softgoods, services etc. Costs are all over the map. Sometimes I look at things and wonder how they can sell it so cheap. Other times I look and wonder how they charge so much.
> 
> So you ask a good question Vexel.


Back when I was doing software marketing, we did see pricing as a bit of a black art. Done well, it changes the perception of the product and I remember one case where we went from sluggishly selling licenses at (roughly) $600/pop to suddenly having a huge demand for the product at $25,000 or more--all by changing the pricing and licensing.


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## fellfromtree (May 18, 2005)

Purchased all my software.

A lot of the confusion comes from the way we value different things.

I can resell my physical CDs DVDs Books, legally. Why can't I resell the (retail boxed) software that I purchased in the same way? If I am not using these products, I can resell them. Thy only belong to one user at a time. Why is a hard copy of software different? 

People don't value intellectual property the same way they value physical property- or possibly more likely, people who don't make intellectual property, or are not directly affected by unpaid use of intellectual property they may contribute to are less likely to value intellectual property the same as physical property.

If you think back to your elementary school days, writing a test, and someone is whispering to you for an answer, or trying to copy your paper, or look over your shoulder... You may have helped them out once or twice, or let it slide once or twice- but what if those others were getting passing grades and the benefits of those passing grades from your efforts? Nothing lost to you. No theft. You didn't have marks taken away.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

It seems to me that there are a lot of parallels here to Copyright infringements as they currently exist, and without getting into the Bill C-32 that screature referred to in message #12, what with the use of photocopy machines (even in libraries) and scanners etc. and no payments made to the originator or artist.

One seems to be an accepted fact while commercial software without payment is considered piracy or theft. 

It seems a stange way of dealing with or viewing what are both illegal practices in our society.


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## Digikid (Jun 22, 2010)

I purchase ALL my software.

The pirates will get what they deserve.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Joker Eh said:


> sorry you were wrong to crack it.


I'll admit, it was illegal. Honestly, it felt pretty weird going through the hack sites...

However, as has been mentioned, for those developers who don't provide a fully feathered test flight, there is no way I'm going to get stuck laying out cash for software that isn't as advertised, has an intolerable interface, whatever, with no recourse to return the product.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Digikid said:


> I purchase ALL my software.
> 
> *The pirates will get what they deserve.*


Really? I don't think they do or will. Of the few that get caught many, many more are making money scott free on the backs of other peoples work. 

The vast majority of pirates suffer no consequences for their actions... do you still really believe they get/will get what they deserve?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

krs said:


> I never mentioned anything about the level of restrictions, that's irrelevant.
> I'm talking about the "L" in EULA, that stands for "*license*" in case someone doesn't know.


Thanks for clarifying that. 

Perhaps you should read an EULA sometime. Because if you did you would see that you *own* the software license. Nothing in the EULA can stop you from using it. End of story.

Transfer an Adobe product license

Even Adobe uses the term OWNER in it's verbage. You OWN your software license - even if the software is student discounted (although you can't transfer) you are still considered its OWNER.

So what exactly is your point? I fail to see how this is a detriment to using my software.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

fellfromtree said:


> Purchased all my software.
> 
> A lot of the confusion comes from the way we value different things.
> 
> I can resell my physical CDs DVDs Books, legally. Why can't I resell the (retail boxed) software that I purchased in the same way? If I am not using these products, I can resell them. Thy only belong to one user at a time. Why is a hard copy of software different?


In most cases you can just hand over the disks and that's it; HOWEVER… in some (rare) instances you need to file a transfer with the vendor; example: Adobe allows you to transfer ownership of your software. All you need to do is fill out a form (and the buyer as well) and send the documents to Adobe. Done.

But with that said, the Apple store (and Steam, I believe, but I could be wrong) you cannot transfer ownership at this time.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

screature said:


> Really? I don't think they do or will. Of the few that get caught many, many more are making money scott free on the backs of other peoples work.
> 
> The vast majority of pirates suffer no consequences for their actions... do you still really believe they get/will get what they deserve?


Malware for one.


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## RageBoyz (Feb 9, 2011)

Joker Eh said:


> you are splitting hairs. If you buy or receive stolen property/goods you are just as guilty as the person you received or purchased it from.



(X Wife of RageBoyz responding )

Technically you aren't quite accurate.

If you receive stolen goods and know that you have, or have purchased them knowingly, yes, by law you are guilty.
If you receive them and believe they are likely stolen but dont know for sure and decide to tell yourself they aren't stolen, you are still charged as that is considered will full blindness.

If you receive or buy them and for some reason, whatever that might be do not believe them to be stolen, you will not be charged, or at the very least, if you can prove you truly did not know they were stolen then you will not be convicted.
But if they dont believe you, it is then up to you to prove that you truly did not know they were.

(am surrounded by lawyers in my social life-all close friends )

That doesn't really play into the software angle you are chatting about here though.


I have been fortunate since owning a Mac that I have a friend whose an owner of a worldwide company (based in the GTA) that buys a lot of software from Apple and has given me a lot i havent had to pay for & more.

What I did need he was unable to provide I have purchased.
Its not worth risking your computer with cracked software etc, if morally it isn't a problem for you.

Smaller companies, unlike Adobe or big names like that, I did pirate smaller programs and 2 I ended up wanting to keep and purchased.
The rest i didn't want and dumped.

The only one that is pirated on my Mac is MS Office for Mac.
In fact I was given 2 Ms Office for Macs 2011 and sold both, rather than keep one for myself that was legit for i dont use it that often and I had 2 people that did and really wanted it at the price I was able to give it to them.
But myself, I just stayed with the pirated version and as time goes on, I find i am slowly switching over to the equivalent Mac products anyhow.



Where I did use pirated apps was on my jailbroken phone.
But again, on the second jailbreak recently, I have dumped a lot of them, and purchased 3 that i found i could not live without.
But I still have a couple pirated ones on there that i find i am not using anyway and will likely just dump them on the next upgrade
But you tend to go a bit wild in the beginning and want to try everything out


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## RageBoyz (Feb 9, 2011)

That all said, I think many of us are seeing the downfalls of pirating Music and what has happened to the industry.

I do agree with those that say pirating a program is NOT the same as stealing a car.
The inventory is not missing.
But, although I disagree and believe them to be different, I have many well known friends that are musicians, several Hollywood actors and directors, etc.........and I have heard their rants on it all for years and do believe that piracy is hurting us far more than people are willing to accept.


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## Limit77 (Oct 6, 2010)

I do.

Anyone ever owned Windows XP? You've used pirated stuff.


Please read this:

Windows uses pirated software? | Message 1 of 15 | TechRepublic


Could it be on a Mac?... probably.

Devs will say you're stealing, dongle/security companies will say you're creating jobs, piraters are sticking it to the man....so goes the machine.

PS..
I've worked at a major video game company, and they 'pirated' licenses for anti-virus programs, word processing programs, and audio plugins for all in studio PC's, ...thats all I saw anyways.


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## preformalover (May 23, 2009)

better not be any feds accsessing this data :lmao:


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

krs said:


> I'm not condoning piracy of any software but what bugs me is that software seems to be the only product where the manufacturer has no responsibility to either provide what they advertise or to provide a customer with the quality of product they expect.


That bugs me to. The solution for me is to not buy or use the software.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

RageBoyz said:


> I do agree with those that say pirating a program is NOT the same as stealing a car.
> The inventory is not missing.


No, it's closer as stealing an item, and leaving the vendor enough money to pay for the vendor's cost.

It could also be compared to hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them. Essentially a developer is working for you to make the software you use. Imagine if you hired someone to build your house and when it was built you say to them "well, I would pay you if I could afford to, but I can't and well, I don't really like where you put the guest bathroom anyway so I won't pay you. But one day when I get a job, I'll pay you; honest."


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## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


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## Nick (Aug 24, 2002)

Sonal said:


> Back when I was doing software marketing, we did see pricing as a bit of a black art. Done well, it changes the perception of the product and I remember one case where we went from sluggishly selling licenses at (roughly) $600/pop to suddenly having a huge demand for the product at $25,000 or more--all by changing the pricing and licensing.


Black art? It certainly can be. And perception is everything. 
Underprice something and people think it's not worth anything.
Overprice it and people complain, and you stifle your own growth.

Both instances lead to poor sales, growth and returns.


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## tendim (Apr 6, 2004)

Joker Eh said:


> Thats like going to a car dealer and taking a car from lot, and then if you feel like after whatever time you need you call the dealer and say "I stole the car on your lot and now I am ready to purchase it"
> 
> makes no sense


It makes perfect sense. If you take a car for a test drive, you are getting the full experience of the car. There is no "crippling" of the vehicle: you can drive as fast or slow as you need, test the brakes, take it on a skid pad to test it's turning capabilities, whatever. Cripple/demo software is _not_ the same: if the software is _limited in functionality_ then you can _not_ gauge its true usefulness.



> If a software package demo does not provide you the info you need, you can email/call vendor for information.


Asking for information does not tell you how well the software will operate -- the vendor can tell you "yes, it will do that," but until you actually perform the task? Sorry, it's all smoke and mirrors.

Case in point: If I am trying out a project management tool for planning projects, but the demo/cripple version limits you to 15 tasks (yes, _fifteen_), how is that going to tell me how well the software handles a project with 500 tasks? It won't. Software sometimes bogs down when you throw a lot of data at it (think of MS Access and databases > 2GB in size). You can't really gauge how good the software is until you can _use it in the manner that you will use it_.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

RageBoyz said:


> That all said, I think many of us are seeing the downfalls of pirating Music and what has happened to the industry.
> 
> I do agree with those that say pirating a program is NOT the same as stealing a car.
> The inventory is not missing.
> But, although I disagree and believe them to be different, I have many well known friends that are musicians, several Hollywood actors and directors, etc.........and I have heard their rants on it all for years and do believe that piracy is hurting us far more than people are willing to accept.


The music industry is alive and well. Sales dropped by a couple percent this year, but growth in previous years has been very good.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

This is when you cruise the software forum, or search for reviews on the software in question. There is a high likelihood you will find your answer there.



tendim said:


> It makes perfect sense. If you take a car for a test drive, you are getting the full experience of the car. There is no "crippling" of the vehicle: you can drive as fast or slow as you need, test the brakes, take it on a skid pad to test it's turning capabilities, whatever. Cripple/demo software is _not_ the same: if the software is _limited in functionality_ then you can _not_ gauge its true usefulness.
> 
> Asking for information does not tell you how well the software will operate -- the vendor can tell you "yes, it will do that," but until you actually perform the task? Sorry, it's all smoke and mirrors.
> 
> Case in point: If I am trying out a project management tool for planning projects, but the demo/cripple version limits you to 15 tasks (yes, _fifteen_), how is that going to tell me how well the software handles a project with 500 tasks? It won't. Software sometimes bogs down when you throw a lot of data at it (think of MS Access and databases > 2GB in size). You can't really gauge how good the software is until you can _use it in the manner that you will use it_.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

tendim said:


> It makes perfect sense. If you take a car for a test drive, you are getting the full experience of the car. There is no "crippling" of the vehicle: you can drive as fast or slow as you need, test the brakes, take it on a skid pad to test it's turning capabilities, whatever. Cripple/demo software is _not_ the same: if the software is _limited in functionality_ then you can _not_ gauge its true usefulness.


That's a logical fallacy. Not all demo software is crippled. A lot of demos are time-limited. I "tested" CS5 last month and got to use the entire suite of Master Collection tools for 30 days with absolutely nothing crippled.

A lot of shareware works the same way… some will delay launching as time goes on in order to compel you to purchase the software.

Maybe the lesson we're learning is not to be passive suckers when dealing with software companies. If everyone took a moment to fire off an email and complained about the things they didn't like, maybe (just maybe) the publisher(s) in question would rethink things.

Regardless, it's still not a valid excuse for using software without paying for it.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

What I find interesting is how many people deal with software companies without actually talking to them. I mean, seriously… if you bought a steak dinner at a restaurant and it tasted like dog-$h!t, or had terrible service, wouldn't you complain or refuse to pay for it?

If you're interested in buying software why not contact the developer? When I bought a copy of Modo3D, which is pretty pricey as it is, I contacted them first to see if there were any specials coming up before the holidays. They said no, however they were willing to give me a discount (approx. $200 off the price). SOLD! Almost a month later, they released a major update, but with a price. I contacted them and they gave me the update—free.

Now I freely admit not all software companies are the same, but what the hell… talk to them! What's the worst that could happen? The ones who really care and want your business will welcome your feedback.


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## polywog (Aug 9, 2007)

If free, open sources versions of software are inadequate, I'll wind up buying a commercial product to do the job. The only time I'd consider software piracy is for a product that I've purchased but for some reason lost access to, like losing the install CD. Considering the vendors are selling us a license to use the product, not the product itself I see no moral obligation to buy the product a second time. Of course, now that I have had several backup drives it's become less of an issue. 

Do have a few apps installed on both of my Macs where I suppose I'm only licensed for one seat. I guess that counts as piracy however, it's not like I can use both copies at once. And since i'm the only one using it, again I see no moral obligation.


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## RageBoyz (Feb 9, 2011)

kloan said:


> Can you download a Rolex? They're expensive for a reason. Why is a CD $25 when it could easily be $10 (as it usually is now in digital download).
> 
> Often people spent thousands on purchasing CDs, many of which ended up being CRAP. I know back in the day I used to spend a small fortune on buying CDs, only to find out most of the songs were crap and felt like my money was wasted.
> 
> If I could actually afford to buy a Rolex, I don't think I'd get it home and think, aww man, the diamonds in the face are ugly, I don't like this thing.


Having had 3 as gifts since the age of 21, so it being the only watch I ever wore, I can promise you that its not worth anywhere near what they charge.
I just sold my 3rd one ( gave away my second years ago ) for as I age I now need reading glasses and was unable to read the time this past year without having to find my glasses first + I can read it better on my iPhone 4.
But they keep terrible time.

And before anyone says its just me, I finally became convinced to dump it when I would sit at a local starbux by me in the morning and it turned out 5 of the guys always near me all had Rolexes as well and we all laughed about the terrible time each one kept.

Trust me......get the idea of a Rolex ouf of ur mind.......my iPhone keeps the best time

Xwife, not Rageboy posting......


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## RageBoyz (Feb 9, 2011)

hayesk said:


> No, it's closer as stealing an item, and leaving the vendor enough money to pay for the vendor's cost.
> 
> It could also be compared to hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them. Essentially a developer is working for you to make the software you use. Imagine if you hired someone to build your house and when it was built you say to them "well, I would pay you if I could afford to, but I can't and well, I don't really like where you put the guest bathroom anyway so I won't pay you. But one day when I get a job, I'll pay you; honest."



I am all for artists getting paid for their work, software developers as well BUT I dont agree with the analogies given.
I wouldn't agree with yours.
Two different situations..........But this is where it gets tricky and becomes problematic for artists/developers/etc

Using an MP3 for example.
I used to download many for free.
I hadn't purchased any CDs for several years, since my late 20s when I couldn't live without music.
My life changed and it was no longer important and I was fine listening to the many I had purchased.
I had no time nor interest to go into a record store to browse or listen to new ones.

Along came Napster and I used it a few times to get songs I already had purchased but had the albums, and thought it would be nice to hear the song in the room my computer was based in------so i downloaded them.
In that situation I still believe I have a right as i have purchased the song already.
But I didn't really get into it much.

Later I saw web pages where top 40 full cds would be downloaded and so i did.
Most of the time I didn't like them but once in a while i would hear one song that i did and it would become part of my collection. This was before iTunes.
I didn't want the whole CD.
one song out of maybe 10 CDs I downloaded i liked.
The rest i never listened to again.
But I never would have gone into those CD stores and purchased the CD beforehand so I dont think in that case I was taking money from his/her pocket for the way I saw it was that he never would have made the money from me anyhow.

Thats fine for one person and i do still believe that, as one person.........but multiply that by millions and of course a dent is made.

Thats the problem i feel. The record companies have not approached people in that manner.
Anyone person can rationalize it as I did............and to some degree in that situation still can BUT i know the price is paid when millions of people feel the same way fo then the damage is done.

So although I dont agree with those analogies, I believe, at least as far as the music industry goes, they have to approach people as a collective whole and not single them out individually for the reason that it is too easy to overlook the damage that you as one person can make


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## RageBoyz (Feb 9, 2011)

kevleviathan said:


> The music industry is alive and well. Sales dropped by a couple percent this year, but growth in previous years has been very good.




Prove it for dont know where u r getting that from.
I am friends with many well known musicians around the world and very few would agree with that statement.
The rise of concerts has made up for the loss of cd sales


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

kevleviathan said:


> The music industry is alive and well. Sales dropped by a couple percent this year, but growth in previous years has been very good.


Yup, you're quite correct with one point and I can't believed I missed reading your post previously.

Sales for the music industry is sustained, but I can list almost six commercial artists who haven't seen any improvement, in fact quite the opposite, and they are among the "authors" who support the music industry with their work and time.

And as an aside, not one of them has yet to receive a nickle from the Canadian CD "levy" that was imposed with an excuse to support them how many years ago now???

Yet everything is done to support the "music industry" that relies on such artists. All the same as software programmers and developers that get zero support.

At least that's the way I see things!!


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

RageBoyz said:


> Prove it for dont know where u r getting that from.
> I am friends with many well known musicians around the world and very few would agree with that statement.
> The rise of concerts has made up for the loss of cd sales


In 2009, sales were up 2.1% over 2008: http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire...Nielsen-Music-2009-Year-End-Press-Release.pdf

In 2008, digital album sales were up 32%. Billboard / Soundscan: Digital Album Sales Up 32% In 2008 | Nielsen Wire
Quote: Music purchases in 2008 reached 1.5 Billion, marking the fourth consecutive year music sales have exceeded 1 billion; 1.4 billion (2007) vs. 1.2 billion (2006) vs. 1 billion (2005) .


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I just don't get what a debate about the music industry is doing in a thread about pirating software, does anyone else?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

SINC said:


> I just don't get what a debate about the music industry is doing in a thread about pirating software, does anyone else?


It's justification, if I had to guess. If "they" are making money then surely people don't need to worry about paying.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I am reminded of a post from Ambrosia software that talks about the truth regarding piracy. Ambrosia Times: Bitwise Operator: The Plain Truth About Piracy - Ambrosia Software Web Board

And this is just a modest software company. I be it's worse for Adobe.


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

kloan said:


> Ok, see the problem with that is this: If piracy has actually bankrupted your company, you either had a crappy product, or it wasn't priced according to market demand & the price people are willing to pay.
> 
> Perhaps pricing your software at $25,000 is the first thing to look at.


Why?

If a piece of software can improve an employee's productivity by 10% per year and that company has 10 employees that will be using it, isn't the value to the company worth $25,000 or more?

Let's suppose there is a piece of software that a developer creates, and the total costs (salaries, admin, office space, equipment, etc.) to develop that software are $500,000. For one version, not talking about future versions, upgrades, etc. Now that software needs to be supported, sold, etc., so there are additional costs of $500,000 for support staff, sales commissions, etc. A total of $1,000,000 in costs. 

If you can sell 1,000 copies at $1,000 each, you break even. Same with selling 2,000 at $500 each. 

But… this software is designed only for sports facilities that have have private boxes. What is the potential market size? Maybe 200 in North America? Out of that, what percentage will actually buy your product? If you get 25% marketshare, that's usually considered to be pretty good. So that is 50 sales. Just to break even, you'll need to price your software at $20,000. To get a small profit, you'll need to charge $25,000. It doesn't matter how good I make my software, I cannot honestly expect to sell more than 50 copies of one version. 

Lowering my selling price won't increase my sales. The other 150 buildings that don't buy my software have already bought my competition's product, or have lost their teams and are sitting empty, or aren't selling their private boxes because of poor economic conditions. I've done all the research, 50 is the most I can realistically hope to sell. 

If I am running a company that produces software like this, you better believe that I will do whatever I can to protect against piracy. 

I think that many people believe that pricing for software is a complete guess. 

Sometimes it is, many times there are calculations made to come up with the number.

BTW, there is software designed strictly for sports facilities with private boxes.


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## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> I am reminded of a post from Ambrosia software that talks about the truth regarding piracy. Ambrosia Times: Bitwise Operator: The Plain Truth About Piracy - Ambrosia Software Web Board
> 
> And this is just a modest software company. I be it's worse for Adobe.


Great post!! As a side not brought back some great memories. I purchased a few of their titles (all three EVs, Malestrom, ect.) so it was a nice walk down memory lane.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

hayesk said:


> It could also be compared to hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them. Essentially a developer is working for you to make the software you use. Imagine if you hired someone to build your house and when it was built you say to them "well, I would pay you if I could afford to, but I can't and well, I don't really like where you put the guest bathroom anyway so I won't pay you. But one day when I get a job, I'll pay you; honest."


I'm not a pirate so have nothing to justify but I find this argument to be a difficult one to accept. 

The builder spent his months building your house and doesn't have the ability to make a new copy for $1. The software developer can easily reproduce his work again and again. There's no direct relationship between work and payment. If software was priced at what each share of the development was worth I could see this argument. I.e. If it took $100,000 worth of effort to develop and 10,000 people/shares were made then each should pay $10 for the licence + a fee for packaging, distribution, etc. Of course there is a question of what a developer's time is worth so that you can figure out what the work effort cost? Do they get $10 an hour? $100? 

However it doesn't work this way and really can't. The developer doesn't know in advance how many shares they will sell. There's also the other pricing argument of "What the market will bare". Why should the developer sell the software for what it cost to make instead profiting as much as possible? The problem is striking a balance that allows for the most profit. Do you sell one copy for $100,000 or 5 copies for $25,000 each or 1 million copies for $1 each. Piracy changes that balance and lowers the price one can sell at. Preventing piracy allows a company to not only sell more but at a higher price. At least until the price is too high and piracy takes over again. 

Going a little off topic, the Apple App Store is really exploring this issue of what software is worth. The "race for the bottom" pricing is going to have an interesting effect on the market. Nintendo is already fearful. If a developer under values their product and still can't sell enough copies, they will not recoup their developing costs and will also drive down the price that a competitor can charge. A developer doesn't have to do anything to stay in business on the App store (although I assume they have to pay their $100/yr fee to Apple?). So they can release a decent product for less than it is worth and forever block the sales of a similar product at a higher price at no further cost to themselves. In the traditional model, it costs real money to stay in business and keep distributing product. Companies that are not good at this will close and open the market up to the next guy to try and find the right price. Will the App store stifle innovation when a developer can't afford to make a better product? To bring this back to the piracy discussion, people still pirate this software even though it sells for as little as it can and is easier to get than a pirated version. I guess some people are just morally bankrupt. It can't be financial reasons and I really can't find another justification for people taking these apps for free to run on their $200+ iPod touch, or $1000 a year iPhone plans.


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## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

Oakbridge said:


> Why?
> 
> If a piece of software can improve an employee's productivity by 10% per year and that company has 10 employees that will be using it, isn't the value to the company worth $25,000 or more?
> 
> ...


If you have done your research and the market can bear your $25000 price tag, then it is a non issue. The point is that if it is difficult to purchase or out of range of your target group there will be more piracy. If you have done your research (all your research, including how much it is to break even) and the market will not bear it then it is not a project that is feasible.

As for you first statement, if software can improve an employee's productivity by 10% is it not worth $25000 dollars. Very logical, but people are not always logical. Also, that is an upfront cost. Many companies see the upfront cost and don't always see the incurring costs of employee productivity. Especially when you get into 10, 15, 20%. A lot of times it comes to dollars and cents, learning curve, support with current hardware, inflexibility of management or the workers themselves. That 10% is not going to be instant, as with anything else people are looking for instant solutions.

While it may be true that there is software designed private boxes, I do no believe your case study is valid for the topic. As you pointed out a very limited group of clients. Also, are these types of products not tied to a specific hardware? Again making you analogy mute.

I have pirated software in the past, I no longer do this. Instead, I have been regular at sourceforge. That, of course does not fill every need, but with programs like iWork, I have a lot more options that are more inline with my needs and budget.

This is the area that Apple has brought and is bringing piracy from at convenient or at the least a hassle worth the time of admission to convenient, affordable (at least with ios devices) and hassle free. There is a balance, I think that the guy from Ambrosia said it best. If your product is just a hassle enough to your client to pirate it instead of pay for it they will usually just pay for it. There will always be die hards out there looking for anything to get for nothing, but the average person is not.


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## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

[
I am not so sure, EA games made a great profit from their ios games. Also, there is the fact that ios is bringing more people to the market. The more you sell the less you have to charge. Of course there are trade offs, but I think we are not going to see companies fail because of this market. This model also allows independent programers a chance to publish programs. Angry Birds is a perfect example.


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

Atroz said:


> I'm not a pirate so have nothing to justify but I find this argument to be a difficult one to accept.
> 
> The builder spent his months building your house and doesn't have the ability to make a new copy for $1. The software developer can easily reproduce his work again and again. There's no direct relationship between work and payment.


Using that logic, I should be able to walk on to a bus that looks half empty and say "I'm not going to pay because you're only half full and it really doesn't 'cost' you anything for me to ride for free."

Or I could walk into the ACC and say "I'm going to sit in Section 120, row D, seats 11 and 12 for tonight's game. I know that nobody will be sitting in those seats tonight because those are my boss's seats and he couldn't get rid of them. It's okay because I'm not costing you anything."

Or I could walk into a buffet restaurant 1/2 hour before closing and say "I'm not going to pay for my meal tonight. You've got all this food that is just going to get thrown out anyway after you close, so I'm not costing you anything."

If a piece of software has a price tag on it (i.e. not a promotional copy, demo, etc.), and you didn't pay that price and installed the software anyway, you have stolen that piece of software. 

It is against the law. Period, end of story.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

MannyP Design said:


> I am reminded of a post from Ambrosia software that talks about the truth regarding piracy. Ambrosia Times: Bitwise Operator: The Plain Truth About Piracy - Ambrosia Software Web Board
> 
> And this is just a modest software company. I be it's worse for Adobe.


It would be interesting if they could analyze their logs to see who purchased the software *after* being unable to activate a pirated license. I think this would be the true measure of how much damage piracy does. If someone gives up and doesn't purchase the software after pirating it fails... then there is no sale there, as they clearly aren't interested enough.


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

DR Hannon said:


> If you have done your research and the market can bear your $25000 price tag, then it is a non issue. The point is that if it is difficult to purchase or out of range of your target group there will be more piracy.


If it is out of range of our target group, then our target group should choose something else. When did we all of a sudden become a society that feels entitled to things, whether we can afford them or not?



DR Hannon said:


> As for you first statement, if software can improve an employee's productivity by 10% is it not worth $25000 dollars. Very logical, but people are not always logical. Also, that is an upfront cost. Many companies see the upfront cost and don't always see the incurring costs of employee productivity. Especially when you get into 10, 15, 20%. A lot of times it comes to dollars and cents, learning curve, support with current hardware, inflexibility of management or the workers themselves. That 10% is not going to be instant, as with anything else people are looking for instant solutions.


Then they should choose to purchase something else. 



DR Hannon said:


> While it may be true that there is software designed private boxes, I do no believe your case study is valid for the topic. As you pointed out a very limited group of clients. Also, are these types of products not tied to a specific hardware? Again making you analogy mute.


The name of the company that develops the software is called Incentient. It's not software to design private boxes, it is software that was designed to be used in private boxes. I believe that the ACC in Toronto is using it in their private boxes. It's an iPad app so yes it is hardware specific but not in that way I believe you were suggesting. 

I don't know what it sells for, I was using it as a generic example that there is software out there that has a very limited potential market. Their customers realize that it is a unique product but they see value in it and so they decide to purchase it. The developers saw that there was some potential so they decided to develop it. 

Developers do get it wrong when it comes to pricing their product. Both ways. I once worked for a software developer that had a product that had poor sales. We asked one of our customers why they choose it and they said that they almost didn't because the other products that they were considering were much more expensive than ours was. They thought it was priced too low and because of it's price tag, that it wasn't very good. 

All of you that only use software you have purchased should be up in arms against software piracy. Every step that a developer takes to protect their software costs that developer money and that is part of the costs that determine what to charge for the software. It will be part of the price you pay for the next upgrade. 

To emphasize what I said earlier, just because something is priced out of the reach of a consumer, doesn't give that consumer the right to use it without paying. That is against the law. Period. End of story.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Oakbridge said:


> ...If a piece of software has a price tag on it (i.e. not a promotional copy, demo, etc.), and you didn't pay that price and installed the software anyway, *you have stolen* that piece of software.
> 
> It is against the law. Period, end of story.


All these analogies flying around are rather humorous...

Stealing is a criminal offence punishable with jail time. Downloading (or otherwise obtained, other than physical theft of a disk, floppy, USB stick, hard drive etc.) and installing software for private use that you did not pay for is not a criminal offence, it is a copyright infringement, it is a civil law matter and punishable only with a fine and only if the copyright holder takes you to court and you lose. They are not the same thing and the law does not view it the same way at all. It is a simple fact. 

"Period, end of story." 

Now pirating software and redistributing it for profit is viewed differently in the law but that is not what we are talking about here.


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## DR Hannon (Jan 21, 2007)

Oakbridge, I do not condone the that people pirate software. I am just giving a reason. 

Thanks for the info on the private boxes, I was thinking that the software would more intergraded than it is.


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## Oakbridge (Mar 8, 2005)

screature said:


> All these analogies flying around are rather humorous...
> 
> Stealing is a criminal offence punishable with jail time. Downloading and installing software that you did not pay for is not a criminal offence, it is a copyright infringement, it is a civil law matter and punishable only with a fine and only if the copyright holder takes you to court and you lose. They are not the same thing and the law does not view it the same way at all. It is a simple fact.
> 
> ...


My apologies. I was going for the "it's plain wrong" argument. 

However, perhaps if it was put into the same category as stealing, people might take a different view.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Oakbridge said:


> My apologies. I was going for the "it's plain wrong" argument.
> 
> However, perhaps if it was put into the same category as stealing, people might take a different view.


Agreed. However, I think for personal use jail time would be an excessive punishment.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> Perhaps you should read an EULA sometime. Because if you did you would see that you *own* the software license. Nothing in the EULA can stop you from using it. End of story.


I don't have to read an EULA since I write and negotiate software license agreements of our software with our customers. Industrial communication software, not consumer type products.
Nobody ever said an EULA stops you from using the product, in fact it's just the opposite, it gives you permission (or a license) to use the software under very specific and usually very limited conditions that are spelled out in the license agreement.
You do not own the software license in that you cannot tansfer or sell that license to any one else (as you could with a product you own) unless the license specifically allows for that.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> What I find interesting is how many people deal with software companies without actually talking to them. I mean, seriously… if you bought a steak dinner at a restaurant and it tasted like dog-$h!t, or had terrible service, wouldn't you complain or refuse to pay for it?
> 
> If you're interested in buying software why not contact the developer?


You are dreaming in technicolor.

I have never been able to get anywhere close to contacting a software designer of any large software company ne it MS, Adobe, Apple to name just a few.
Even if you could, which designer would you want to talk to?
Do you think there is just one designer that works on MS Word for instance?

And yeah, if you were served a lousy, non-palatable dinner at a restaurant, you would complain and, at least Ontario law, allows you not to pay for it.
Not so with software which was an earlier point I made - you buy the software, take it home and install it, it's crap and the recourse the consumer has is "zip".
Even if you call the tech support of that software, they will just give you a run-a-round how the problem is all on your end or that you're being unreasonable expecting the software to handle more than a certain file size.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

krs said:


> I don't have to read an EULA since I write and negotiate software license agreements of our software with our customers. Industrial communication software, not consumer type products.
> Nobody ever said an EULA stops you from using the product, in fact it's just the opposite, it gives you permission (or a license) to use the software under very specific and usually very limited conditions that are spelled out in the license agreement.
> You do not own the software license in that you cannot tansfer or sell that license to any one else (as you could with a product you own) unless the license specifically allows for that.


And to add to your very valid points, where MannyP says "Nothing in the EULA can stop you from using it. End of story."

This is not true. For example you *cannot* legally install OSX on non Apple branded hardware. A further example is that there are commonly limitations to the number of computing devices that you can install the software to in the EULA. You can *use* the software but there are almost always limitations as to *how* you use it. One does not *own* the software one only owns the *rights* to use it within the limitations of the EULA.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

SINC said:


>


This discussion is going around in circles.

Maybe it's time for the Mayor to just close the discussion part but leave the voting open.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

krs said:


> This discussion is going around in circles.
> 
> Maybe it's time for the Mayor to just close the discussion part but leave the voting open.


I think considering the "volatility" of the subject matter the discussion has remained "within bounds" and there is no reason to close the thread. If the Mayor were to close threads just because they are "going around in circles" he would have close about half of them.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

krs said:


> You are dreaming in technicolor.
> 
> I have never been able to get anywhere close to contacting a software designer of any large software company ne it MS, Adobe, Apple to name just a few.
> Even if you could, which designer would you want to talk to?
> ...


What in the blue blazes are you TALKING about? Did I say SOFTWARE DESIGNER? Where did you read that? Judging from your two responses you're just not even bothering, so continue to set your replies on auto-fire.

Firstly, you complete ignored my question regarding EULA: What exactly is your point? How does it relate to piracy? Secondly: Are you arguing with Adobe's stance regarding ownership of licenses? Or are you just going to skirt around it and just fire off nonsense about refunds?

Paint all the broad strokes you want, but not all developers are equal.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

screature said:


> And to add to your very valid points, where MannyP says "Nothing in the EULA can stop you from using it. End of story."
> 
> This is not true. For example you *cannot* legally install OSX on non Apple branded hardware. A further example is that there are commonly limitations to the number of computing devices that you can install the software to in the EULA. You can *use* the software but there are almost always limitations as to *how* you use it. One does not *own* the software one only owns the *rights* to use it within the limitations of the EULA.


Legalities aside, what's stopping people from building Hackintoshes? Nothing.

How does this relate to piracy? Hint: It doesn't and KRS knows it. It's means absolutely nothing to the topic at hand.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MannyP Design said:


> Legalities aside, what's stopping people from building Hackintoshes? Nothing.
> 
> *How does this relate to piracy? Hint: It doesn't and KRS knows it. It's means absolutely nothing to the topic at hand.*


Agreed. It is not really relevant to the discussion at hand re: piracy. It is a derailment and I was just adding to it... my bad.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

Oakbridge said:


> Using that logic, I should be able to walk on to a bus that looks half empty and say "I'm not going to pay because you're only half full and it really doesn't 'cost' you anything for me to ride for free."
> 
> Or I could walk into the ACC and say "I'm going to sit in Section 120, row D, seats 11 and 12 for tonight's game. I know that nobody will be sitting in those seats tonight because those are my boss's seats and he couldn't get rid of them. It's okay because I'm not costing you anything."
> 
> ...


Actually, you've proven my point. Every case you have is based upon a business model in which a set level of sales is expected to cover the costs and each unit of sale is priced accordingly. Every case is based upon a set physical quantity of a limited resource. Buses are going to be busy because people need to ride them. If they are no longer affordable to run they will be taken off the route. Look at the case in Ottawa right now. The ACC deal is fine if you had the Boss's OK. Nobody needs to pay again for that seat, it was already bought and paid for. If the boss didn't give you the OK and the boss showed up you wouldn't be allowed to sit on his lap. The restaurant one is the same, the food in the buffet gets put out so long as there are paying customers. I don't expect any buffet is fully stocked when they know they are about to close down. They produce the food and put it out as per how many paying customers they have and how fast they are eating. If there's food left over that they can't use, they may donate it to a food bank or shelter or just throw it out. 





> It is against the law. Period, end of story.


I wasn't arguing against the legalities. I was arguing against the previous statement about stealing the work effort of somebody that built a house being the same thing as stealing a copy of software. I don't know why you would have thought I was promoting law breaking especially after I opened up with "I am not a pirate".


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> What in the blue blazes are you TALKING about? Did I say SOFTWARE DESIGNER? Where did you read that?


I guess we're from different planets.
What exactly did you mean by "developer" in this context if not the software designer/engineer/developer?
From your earlier post which I quoted in my reply


> If you're interested in buying software why not contact the developer?






> Judging from your two responses you're just not even bothering, *so continue to set your replies on auto-fire.*


And what does that mean?
I reply when I get back to this thread and I feel there is a reply warranted.




> Firstly, you complete ignored my question regarding EULA: What exactly is your point? How does it relate to piracy? Secondly: Are you arguing with Adobe's stance regarding ownership of licenses? Or are you just going to skirt around it and just fire off nonsense about refunds?
> Paint all the broad strokes you want, but not all developers are equal.


This thread is going all over the map with most of it not even relating to the original question: "Do you pirate software"
That's why I suggested to close the thread since it's so far off topic.
I'm not arguing about anything related to Adobe or what they chose to include in their EULA - that's their choice.
And you may think the issue about a refund for a product that doesn't deliver what it promises is "nonsense", consumers wouldn't agree and neither would you I'm sure if it was anything but software. Nobody should be forced to have to pay for and keep a product if it doesn't deliver what it promises.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

krs said:


> I guess we're from different planets.
> What exactly did you mean by "developer" in this context if not the software designer/engineer/developer?
> From your earlier post which I quoted in my reply


In the grand scheme of things a developer can mean a person or entity (company). It's perfectly apt since some software companies are literally a single person.


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

MannyP Design said:


> In the grand scheme of things a developer can mean a person or entity (company). It's perfectly apt since some software companies are literally a single person.


Who'd want to deal with a company that's only one person? That seems super sketchy to me.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

krs said:


> And what does that mean?
> I reply when I get back to this thread and I feel there is a reply warranted.
> 
> This thread is going all over the map with most of it not even relating to the original question: "Do you pirate software"
> ...


Well, telling someone they dream in technicolor certainly helps keep it on track. 

Look, this has (largely) been a great discussion. Why the need to suggest closing it? You either want it back on track or you don't.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

jfpoole said:


> Who'd want to deal with a company that's only one person? That seems super sketchy to me.


How about two? Is that less sketchy?


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

jfpoole said:


> Who'd want to deal with a company that's only one person? That seems super sketchy to me.




AFAIK, the only person at Shirt Pocket is Dave Nanian, and I don't think any of the legions of SuperDuper! users here would ever describe either Dave or his company as "sketchy"!!


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

Paddy said:


> AFAIK, the only person at Shirt Pocket is Dave Nanian, and I don't think any of the legions of SuperDuper! users here would ever describe either Dave or his company as "sketchy"!!


I was just kidding. My comment was a bad joke that was poorly told. There's only one person at Primate Labs -- me!


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

jfpoole said:


> I was just kidding. My comment was a bad joke that was poorly told. There's only one person at Primate Labs -- me!


I figured but for some reason I thought PL had two people.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

I used to pirate just about everything. Office suites, games, operating systems, you name it. I was rather poor and I didn't have the money to blow on expensive software (especially after blowing it on expensive computers), so I always wondered why software developers would get so irritated by it. It's not like I was going to buy your product in the first place, and I didn't prevent you from selling a copy to anyone else. In 2001, I think I only "owned" about 10-15% of the software I used. 

Over the years I've received numerous promotions, and as a result my disposable income is now a lot higher, and I thus have a lot more money to spend on software. As of right now, I would not be surprised if 9/10 of the applications I use were legally acquired. Platforms like Steam really helped curb my piracy of games. But aside from that, I rarely follow license agreements, and I have no qualms with installing a single physical copy on multiple computers.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

jfpoole said:


> I was just kidding. My comment was a bad joke that was poorly told. There's only one person at Primate Labs -- me!


Maybe you're an interesting couple of guys.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

broken_g3 said:


> I used to pirate just about everything. Office suites, games, operating systems, you name it. I was rather poor and I didn't have the money to blow on expensive software (especially after blowing it on expensive computers), so I always wondered why software developers would get so irritated by it. It's not like I was going to buy your product in the first place, and I didn't prevent you from selling a copy to anyone else. In 2001, I think I only "owned" about 10-15% of the software I used.
> 
> Over the years I've received numerous promotions, and as a result my disposable income is now a lot higher, and I thus have a lot more money to spend on software. As of right now, I would not be surprised if 9/10 of the applications I use were legally acquired. Platforms like Steam really helped curb my piracy of games. But aside from that, I rarely follow license agreements, and I have no qualms with installing a single physical copy on multiple computers.


I hear you, bg3. When I was a student back at the UofA, in addition to rarely paying for software, we even learned how to hotwire the coin photocopier to make free copies. It was easy; you just needed a paper clip to short-circuit the center tho pins, and you were home free. Within a week, that copier became unavailable to anyone and the free ride ended, but not without hundreds of pages of free copies in my hands first. As students, we didn't see it as "stealing" any more than tossing stuff out the window was "littering." Never really considered that somebody would suffer because of my anonymous choices. 

I see it differently as an adult now of course, 25 years later. Nobody fully realizes what theft is until they're the ones being ripped off. It's true that many pieces of software may be overpriced, but I think options like the App store help to counter that trend. If the price is reasonable, reasonable will pay for it. Of course, it's also hard to change the entitlement mindset when people have been getting away with it for so long. Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free? Maybe when there's no more cows, or photocopiers as the case may be.


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## RageBoyz (Feb 9, 2011)

> I just don't get what a debate about the music industry is doing in a thread about pirating software, does anyone else?


This might be a debate about software piracy but if someone is downloading MP3s, they havent any right to sit in judgment of anyone downloading software for free, for it is all the same in the end.
If those downloading music can easily rationalize it by suggesting that Music Industry is doing better than they claim, they can also suggest the same about software designers.



> In 2009, sales were up 2.1% over 2008: http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/...ss-Release.pdf
> 
> In 2008, digital album sales were up 32%. Billboard / Soundscan: Digital Album Sales Up 32% In 2008 | Nielsen Wire
> Quote: Music purchases in 2008 reached 1.5 Billion, marking the fourth consecutive year music sales have exceeded 1 billion; 1.4 billion (2007) vs. 1.2 billion (2006) vs. 1 billion (2005) .





I went to a good friend of mine and put the question to him out of curiosity. This was his response:



> Hmmm....these numbers are three years old. Since it's focusing on digital sales, this just reflects services like iTunes gaining traction. Since this report came out, IsoHunt & Pirate Bay have done more damage in the ensuing three years tha...n a plague of locusts. This effects artists at all levels. While there are of course exceptions, such as The Beatles & Lady GaGa selling insane numbers in their first week of release, the pattern seems to be with a lot of acts is that a new album gets to about the 5,000 legit sales mark, then it hits the torrent sites and that's pretty much it for legit sales. While 5,000 sales is music to the ears for some, it's a death knell for others. I'm a victim of this as much as anybody. I recently did a search of the torrents sites and saw that my LD albums have been downloaded over 130,000 times. You can imagine how delighted I was to discover this. Even at 10% (which is generally the accepted ratio between illegal downloads vs lost sales) that's a hell of a lot of money that just grew wings. Piracy is flat out theft, despite all the hair splitting semantics being trotted out by the pro-piracy crowd, who will say pretty much anything in attempt to justify their thievery and never once acknowledge that they are in fact, not just part of the problem...they ARE the problem.


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

ehMax said:


> ...I also think its irrelevant that one is a product that is crafted out of physical properties and the other is a product that is crafted with ones and zeros. They are both products, one is just easier to take than the other.


They are surely different.

I think of a short book I wrote close to 10 years ago. I of course hold copyright, and I used to sell copies of the book. This is like software. It is not like physical goods, like, say, the vegetable and herb seeds I also used to sell. Once the seeds I had grown and harvested and packaged were sold, they were gone, until I grew more plants and harvested the seed. Once I stop growing the plants, no more seed. This is profoundly different from the book, because it's always possible to print more copies. 

These days, I give, to those who can benefit from my small book on vegetable seed saving, permission to re-print it and sell it at the original cover price for their efforts, or give it away or whatever. I don't need the money. I am not victimized in any way when others copy and sell my book. That's like software, isn't it? Oh, no, wait, it's not, because software developers want every penny of income, so they try to make us equate intellectual property with physical property. Yeah, nobody ever became rich growing and selling vegetable seeds, but some people become filthy rich from writing and flogging software.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Dr T said:


> They are surely different.
> 
> I think of a short book I wrote close to 10 years ago. I of course hold copyright, and I used to sell copies of the book. This is like software. It is not like physical goods, like, say, the vegetable and herb seeds I also used to sell. Once the seeds I had grown and harvested and packaged were sold, they were gone, until I grew more plants and harvested the seed. Once I stop growing the plants, no more seed. This is profoundly different from the book, because it's always possible to print more copies.
> 
> These days, I give, to those who can benefit from my small book on vegetable seed saving, permission to re-print it and sell it at the original cover price for their efforts, or give it away or whatever. I don't need the money. I am not victimized in any way when others copy and sell my book. That's like software, isn't it? Oh, no, wait, it's not, because software developers want every penny of income, so they try to make us equate intellectual property with physical property. Yeah, nobody ever became rich growing and selling vegetable seeds, but some people become filthy rich from writing and flogging software.


Yes, but the difference is that you grant the permission to copy as you are the copyright holder. Each copyright holder retains the right to copy and can grant exceptions as he or she sees fit. It is not reasonable to expect all copyright holders to react as charitably as you have.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

That's your choice and your prerogative. Just because you choose to do that it doesn't mean anyone else has to...


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

Semantics are everything in this debate.

Every time a physical good is stolen, money is lost. *every* time. This is because the original good is GONE and cannot be re-sold. This is a direct loss to the company.

Every time something is pirated, money is *not* necessarily lost.

In poor countries, piracy is very high because these people can't afford to purchase things legally. If suddenly piracy were not possible, they wouldn't start paying for the software. They'd turn to free or cheap alternatives. When you say piracy is theft, you are implying each of those pirated copies is a lost sale. This is blatantly untrue.


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

kevleviathan said:


> ...Every time a physical good is stolen, money is lost. *every* time. This is because the original good is GONE and cannot be re-sold. This is a direct loss to the [vendor].
> 
> [Any] time something is pirated, money is *not* necessarily lost.
> 
> In poor countries, piracy is very high because these people can't afford to purchase things legally [i.e. at the high mark-up that profiteering corporations make]. If suddenly piracy were not possible, they wouldn't start paying for the software. They'd turn to free or cheap alternatives. When you say piracy is theft, you are implying each of those pirated copies is a lost sale. This is blatantly untrue.


Thanks. You have expressed what I was trying to say with my example of selling seed and selling a book about seed saving, which got tangled up in extraneous particulars of my situation, which others seized upon. Plus your point about the situation in poor countries (or poor parts of rich countries) is spot on. [I hope you don't mind my editorial changes to your post.]


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

People can make excuses and attempt to justify their pirating all day long until we're all blue in the face, but the bottom line remains the same throughout all attempts to justify it: Pirating software is stealing. Period. I've done it in the past, sure, but I make no excuses. It's stealing. Why do we insist on trying to say otherwise?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Lars said:


> People can make excuses and attempt to justify their pirating all day long until we're all blue in the face, but the bottom line remains the same throughout all attempts to justify it: Pirating software is stealing. Period. I've done it in the past, sure, but I make no excuses. *It's stealing. Why do we insist on trying to say otherwise?*


Because it isn't stealing it is a completely different legal offence.


> ....Stealing is a criminal offence punishable with jail time. Downloading (or otherwise obtained, other than physical theft of a disk, floppy, USB stick, hard drive etc.) and installing software for private use that you did not pay for is not a criminal offence, it is a copyright infringement, it is a civil law matter and punishable only with a fine and only if the copyright holder takes you to court and you lose. They are not the same thing and the law does not view it the same way at all. It is a simple fact.
> 
> "Period, end of story."
> 
> Now pirating software and redistributing it for profit is viewed differently in the law but that is not what we are talking about here.


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## lang (Jun 9, 2010)

IMO - there is an option missing from the poll.

"When there is no demo (afterwards I remove it or buy it)."


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Lars said:


> People can make excuses and attempt to justify their pirating all day long until we're all blue in the face, but the bottom line remains the same throughout all attempts to justify it: Pirating software is stealing. Period. I've done it in the past, sure, but I make no excuses. It's stealing. Why do we insist on trying to say otherwise?


Because people will talk themselves into anything just to justify behaviour. I used to do it because a) I wanted to learn software to better perform my job; and b) because I couldn't afford it. That was _years_ ago. Now I own all my software.

Saying that there is no inherent value of "virtual" goods is disingenuous considering people pirate software BECAUSE they _want_ it -- there is a value immediately implied, otherwise you wouldn't bother downloading it in the first place or just use free (or cheap) alternatives. :lmao:

And there's also the hidden costs of getting caught: Fatkat Animation Studios fined for software piracy - New Brunswick - CBC News


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

Lars said:


> People can make excuses and attempt to justify their pirating all day long until we're all blue in the face, but the bottom line remains the same throughout all attempts to justify it: Pirating software is stealing. Period. I've done it in the past, sure, but I make no excuses. It's stealing. Why do we insist on trying to say otherwise?


Cry more and deal with it. If people are pirating it's extremely unlikely that they were going to buy the software in the first place. Even if it _is_ some form of stealing, the real damage caused by piracy is likely many magnitudes lower than the software publishers (and their developer slaves) claim.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

broken_g3 said:


> Cry more and deal with it. If people are pirating it's extremely unlikely that they were going to buy the software in the first place. Even if it _is_ some form of stealing, the real damage caused by piracy is likely many magnitudes lower than the software publishers (and their developer slaves) claim.


All hail the software overlords. :lmao:


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

broken_g3 said:


> If people are pirating it's extremely unlikely that they were going to buy the software in the first place.


Not in my experience. There are people who will pirate if it's easy to pirate (even in cases where they would've paid for the software). 

At one point there was a widely-available license key generator for one of my applications. People could easily Google for and use "valid" license keys for the application. When I changed the license key algorithm so these license key generators no longer worked, thus invalidating all of these illegitimate license keys, my sales went up 40%.

Other developers I've talked to have similar stories.


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

broken_g3 said:


> Cry more and deal with it. If people are pirating it's extremely unlikely that they were going to buy the software in the first place. Even if it _is_ some form of stealing, the real damage caused by piracy is likely many magnitudes lower than the software publishers (and their developer slaves) claim.


That's like saying that the people who steal from the grocery store weren't going to buy whatever they stole anyway - whether they could afford it or not. (and this makes it ok?) Some will buy (or could afford to) and some really cannot afford it. Either way, the store loses.

I don't buy the argument that just because software is "virtual" and not tangible, that somehow it's a victimless crime. Just because the law sees it slightly differently, doesn't mean it's any different morally. You're stealing someone's work - their time, their effort, their money put into marketing/web hosting etc. You have no right to use it unless you pay for it.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

jfpoole said:


> Not in my experience. There are people who will pirate if it's easy to pirate (even in cases where they would've paid for the software).
> 
> At one point there was a widely-available license key generator for one of my applications. People could easily Google for and use "valid" license keys for the application. When I changed the license key algorithm so these license key generators no longer worked, thus invalidating all of these illegitimate license keys, my sales went up 40%.
> 
> Other developers I've talked to have similar stories.


Clearly you programmers are making too much money. 

But you better be careful…if a developer gets angry enough, he'll erase your hard drive.

Pirated Mac app deletes files?


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## lang (Jun 9, 2010)

Wondering if the advocates against software piracy also buy all of their own music and movies...

(Not condoning either, or deliberately hijacking the thread, but piracy might not always be deliberate intent. I'm sure there are many who have bought a software package or movie for a specific platform (or in a specific format), only to find out they need it to function on another paltform/format. So instead of a redundant purchase, they acquire the required format (and discontinue the use of the purchased version).


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

jfpoole said:


> Not in my experience. There are people who will pirate if it's easy to pirate (even in cases where they would've paid for the software).
> 
> At one point there was a widely-available license key generator for one of my applications. People could easily Google for and use "valid" license keys for the application. When I changed the license key algorithm so these license key generators no longer worked, thus invalidating all of these illegitimate license keys, my sales went up 40%.
> 
> Other developers I've talked to have similar stories.


Now this is interesting!

It sounds like there are two arguments here - one is a moral argument, the other is an economic one.

In the moral sense, pirating something is theft - you are gaining the use of something without paying the price that has been asked, without the permission of the developer.

In the economic sense, however, the 60% of people who didn't purchase the software after being locked out didn't really steal anything from you. There was no economic loss. The 40% who purchased it, however, were an economic loss because their willingness to pay was equal or greater than your asking price (and they paid it once they couldn't pirate it).


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Sort of in between.

The handful of apps I use regularly I pay for. OTH I have been known to extend test drives of various apps as often the trial periods are often simply too short to evaluate them or I get distracted and do not get back back within that narrow time frame. Again if they pass muster I do pay for them but more often than not the trash bin is their final resting spot on my HD.

Thankfully people have finally stopped sending me .pps files and I have been able to dump MS Office altogether. Always refused to pay for that one as I would never have bothered with it except for the occasional need to open files that should have arrived in some other format. Neo-Office is quite adequate for the rare multi-layer spreadsheet that I need to create.


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## K2ACP (Sep 11, 2010)

Only M$ software. They should be paying me to use office; not the other way around


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

K2ACP said:


> Only M$ software. They should be paying me to use office; not the other way around


Thankfully I have been fairly lucky at landing older versions of Macro$#!7 Office at no charge. Not really pirated but not paid for either.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

its amazing how an issue like this can turn what i would assume are a bunch of self-identifying rational, moral and just adults into a bunch of whinging children, willing to say and do anything to justify their bad behaviour. 

i mean really..its pathetic. if you're going to do it, at least have the balls to own it. all the justification and explanations just make you look sad. 

ps-for the record i am not a software dev and make 0% of my income from software development, as such i have no vested interest in either side of this argument. just calling it as i see it.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

broad said:


> its amazing how an issue like this can turn what i would assume are a bunch of self-identifying rational, moral and just adults into a bunch of whinging children, willing to say and do anything to justify their bad behaviour.
> 
> i mean really..its pathetic. if you're going to do it, at least have the balls to own it. all the justification and explanations just make you look sad.
> 
> ps-for the record i am not a software dev and make 0% of my income from software development, as such i have no vested interest in either side of this argument. just calling it as i see it.


Thanks for sharing.


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## jfpoole (Sep 26, 2002)

kevleviathan said:


> In the economic sense, however, the 60% of people who didn't purchase the software after being locked out didn't really steal anything from you. There was no economic loss. The 40% who purchased it, however, were an economic loss because their willingness to pay was equal or greater than your asking price (and they paid it once they couldn't pirate it).


I'm not sure where you got these numbers. I didn't say 40% of pirates purchased the application, I said sales increased 40% when I made pirating the application harder. I have no idea how many pirates turned around and purchased the application, nor do I have any idea how many pirates continued to use the application. Plus, it's still possible to pirate the application (even without key generators, there are still cracks, and folks who'll share license information).


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## lang (Jun 9, 2010)

broad said:


> its amazing how an issue like this can turn what i would assume are a bunch of self-identifying rational, moral and just adults into a bunch of whinging children, willing to say and do anything to justify their bad behaviour.
> 
> i mean really..its pathetic. if you're going to do it, at least have the balls to own it. all the justification and explanations just make you look sad.


Game misconduct:



ehMax said:


> ...keep posts and replies respectful and directed at the issue, not directed towards any particular member with personal comments or insults.
> 
> IE: You don't have to respect someone's stance on the subject, but you can't show disrespect to the person who holds.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

If I park a wagon load of unprotected Vachon cakes in front of my house and stand idly by while people stuff them into their mouths, should I call the police to arrest the thieves? Software developers have created a product that can be easily copied and have chosen to put it on the market anyway. Yes, it's ethically wrong to pirate software, but why should the law work on the developer's behalf to legally prosecute anyone who samples a Lune/Moon they have barely tried to protect?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

lang said:


> Wondering if the advocates against software piracy also buy all of their own music and movies...
> 
> (Not condoning either, or deliberately hijacking the thread, but piracy might not always be deliberate intent. I'm sure there are many who have bought a software package or movie for a specific platform (or in a specific format), only to find out they need it to function on another paltform/format. So instead of a redundant purchase, they acquire the required format (and discontinue the use of the purchased version).


It's a good question; here's an honest answer: I've watched TV shows on the internet that were clearly illegal (The Walking Dead rules!) only because it wasn't available on demand and I'm waiting for home video prices to drop. I used to Torrent Battlestar Galactic when it was on, only because Canadians literally had to wait a year to watch the new season. I stopped because my internet hit overages.

I buy (or rent) every single movie I watch -- no exception -- on Blu-Ray. I used to have over a 1,000 DVDs in my library. I sold it off years ago and am now building up my Blu-Ray collection.

Music: I used to download a lot of music via Napster/Acquisition/Torrent, but I now buy my music mostly via iTunes and Archambault.ca. Unless it's rare music that I cannot find anywhere else. Sometimes I'll buy the CD and rip it to iTunes if the price is right.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

Macfury said:


> If I park a wagon load of unprotected Vachon cakes in front of my house and stand idly by while people stuff them into their mouths, should I call the police to arrest the thieves? Software developers have created a product that can be easily copied and have chosen to put it on the market anyway. *Yes, it's ethically wrong to pirate software, but why should the law work on the developer's behalf to legally prosecute anyone who samples a Lune/Moon they have barely tried to protect?*


So let me get this right.

I have to put a lock on something for the law to prosecute someone for stealing? Or because there is no lock it is my fault for someone stealing it?

Doesn't make sense to me. Locks or protection only stops lazy theives.


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## kevleviathan (Apr 9, 2008)

jfpoole said:


> I'm not sure where you got these numbers. I didn't say 40% of pirates purchased the application, I said sales increased 40% when I made pirating the application harder. I have no idea how many pirates turned around and purchased the application, nor do I have any idea how many pirates continued to use the application. Plus, it's still possible to pirate the application (even without key generators, there are still cracks, and folks who'll share license information).


Sorry, I slightly misinterpreted your post. 

I was trying to infer that the 40% increase was because of all of the people who could no longer easily pirate your software, but my brain was mush yesterday.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

lang said:


> Game misconduct:


man up, petunia


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## lang (Jun 9, 2010)

broad said:


> man up, petunia


<- Petunia says Have a nice day.

P.S. Not that I need to answer to the likes of you, but all my software is in fact legal or open source and I have receipts to prove it.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

The entire idea of Shareware is if you like it buy it. Therefore crippled demos or severely time limited demos do go counter to the entire spirit and extending the test period adequately to determine if the software is worth the price seems legit.

Obviously commercial software is a different critter altogether.

Personally I love donation ware and where it can be accomplished with out using Credit Cards or Pay Pal I do support those developers. 

Two of the third party bits of software that I use frequently are Carbon Copy Cloner and Onyx and I had no hesitation donating to either. Not sure if that is still possible without using PayPal anymore.

I have noted that M$ and others assume that everyone that pirates their software would pay for it if piracy was impossible. My guess is that at least two thirds of the pirates would simply learn to work with more affordable alternatives.


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## broken_g3 (Jun 27, 2008)

jfpoole said:


> Not in my experience. There are people who will pirate if it's easy to pirate (even in cases where they would've paid for the software).
> 
> At one point there was a widely-available license key generator for one of my applications. People could easily Google for and use "valid" license keys for the application. When I changed the license key algorithm so these license key generators no longer worked, thus invalidating all of these illegitimate license keys, my sales went up 40%.
> 
> Other developers I've talked to have similar stories.


Though that is an interesting observation, the conclusion may not be entirely accurate. You don't know what economic or demographic trends pusehd more people to buy a copy of your software. Changing the algorithms may have been a contributing factor but there is no way to judge whether or not it was responsible for the entire 40%. 



Paddy said:


> That's like saying that the people who steal from the grocery store weren't going to buy whatever they stole anyway - whether they could afford it or not. (and this makes it ok?) Some will buy (or could afford to) and some really cannot afford it. Either way, the store loses.


If the store could spontaneously generate a new piece of inventory it would not be such a big issue. Think about it. Suppose a homeless guy comes into your grocery store every day and steals a few cabbages. He has no money, so was never going to buy them anyway. Now, if you could create exact copies of the cabbages and place them on sale at no cost to you, what have you lost? The answer, in economic and accounting terms, is "absolutely nothing". Either you used a poor analogy or your entire argument falls apart. 



Paddy said:


> I don't buy the argument that just because software is "virtual" and not tangible, that somehow it's a victimless crime. Just because the law sees it slightly differently, doesn't mean it's any different morally. You're stealing someone's work - their time, their effort, their money put into marketing/web hosting etc. You have no right to use it unless you pay for it.


Given the way most EULAs are worded, you can never really own the piece of software you use anyways. It's assigned to you under license. The law therefore considers software piracy to be breach of contract or violation of intellectual property, both of which still impose a smaller real loss than traditional theft of physical goods. In the latter (physical theft) you have both an economic and an accounting loss, whereas in the former (intellectual property breach) scenario you have only an economic one. 

Please note that since I buy almost all my software, I'm not trying to "justify" anything on my part.



MannyP Design said:


> I used to Torrent Battlestar Galactic when it was on, only because Canadians literally had to wait a year to watch the new season. I stopped because my internet hit overages.


Glad to see I'm not the only nerd here. I think I may be the only person over the age of 30 who still watches anime . And yes I do torrent it, but since I use Teksavvy I don't run into cap issues. This is *relevant* because:

1) It's nigh impossible to find a legitimate English version or
2) When you do find a legal copy, the studios usually expect you to pay $60 for two episodes. Not two discs, two episodes. Acquiring a complete season can set you back anywhere from $420 to $1200. I don't think so, Tim. You'd have to be an idiot to buy that when you can get BETTER quality from torrents. If the studios want to make a sale they can figure out a price point that is more in line with North American expectations, otherwise risk losing potential buyers.


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## RageBoyz (Feb 9, 2011)

I find it interesting that kevleviathan rambled off some 3 year old figures for justification about MP3 piracy and then when I came back with a musicians take on it, it was completely overlooked and ignored.
It no longer fit into his justification.

That being said, kevleviathan, I am by no means passing judgment upon you as i have done the same as you many times but I do know its wrong and will admit so.

That said, ONE area of the issue i cant make my mind up about is with movies.

If someone buys a DVD at the store and when done lends it to me, which is legal, why is that any different morally than my downloading a copy instead to watch, rather than having him carry a DVD with him for me the next time we get together?

If I buy Snow leopard family pack and allow a friend with a Mac to use one of my licenses as i only use one myself, why is that considered piracy?
I have paid for 5 and use one.........

The point being, its not always as cut and dry as some would make it but believe strongly that people here often jump to the most negative conclusion very easily.

The Toronto Libraries just found out last week t hat each ebook, which usually is good for 100 customers + has been told they must purchase a new license after its been borrowed 24 times.
I would not support that and believe they are being ripped off.


Last but not least, I dont personally believe everyone here is as angelic as they claim in all areas.
I am sure there has to be at least a couple of software designers that have downloaded illegal MP3s, games or films at some point in time if not regularly.

Hence, I wil not pass judgment on anyone for what they do. i may argue with them but never to pass judgment






( i just bought several apps for my iPhone and I sure better be able to get them again for free once i reset my phone and re jailbreak it--i have signed up for something that says i can but i know others have run into problems with doing so.)

( Rageboyz X Wife posting )


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

RageBoyz said:


> Last but not least, I dont personally believe everyone here is as angelic as they claim in all areas.
> I am sure there has to be at least a couple of software designers that have downloaded illegal MP3s, games or films at some point in time if not regularly.


Yes, which was my point earlier. I wasn't denying that I've pirated software -- I was saying that there's no excuse for it. If you've pirated software, man up and say you did without making invalid excuses. You stole software - not much else to it.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

You know something, it actually makes me feel good to support good Mac developers by paying for their software...guys like Mike Bombich, Thorsen Lemke, the folks at Panic, BareBones, Omni...etc.

Gives me a sense of satisfaction and makes me feel like I'm playing a small part in the overall Mac community.


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## K2ACP (Sep 11, 2010)

we should have another thread about pirating music


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## Bryce (Dec 26, 2007)

*pirating*

Hell No!


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## okcomputer (Jul 18, 2005)

I used to download quite a bit, especially to try things out. I could never afford Adobe suite or Final Cut or Logic, until the prices started to drop.

Since the Mac App store launched, I have found myself buying everything now. I've dropped illegal Adobe CS stuff for Pixelmator. I bought Aperture, iWork 09, FaceTime, etc. etc.

No more pirating for me!


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I used to pirate software when I was in college (this was before the modern internet as we know it -- we're talking mostly TRS-80 and Apple II stuff here). Once I got out in the real world (and in particular once I worked for a few software developers), I stopped.

When Napster first came out I certainly did "pirate" a lot of music -- but in my defense I will say that it was to hear new bands and check them out, there really wasn't much way to hear music other than the radio (which was and remains terrible) back then. I didn't keep the music I didn't like, and I discovered a lot of bands that I still buy/support/collect, so I'm not sure what you want to call that behaviour but I'll call it pirating, at least of a sort. I buy most of my music through iTunes now because it's cheap (and CDs are generally overpriced, at least where I live).

Movies I still generally buy on DVD, though I rent through iTunes. TV I watch on my TV (but I don't pay for it, so is that piracy?) 

The one thing I download that I probably shouldn't is Doctor Who episodes, but this is because I want to see them immediately after they have aired in the UK. Of course I buy the box set at the end of the season.

I'm told that starting this year (Easter Saturday -- CAN'T WAIT!), the episodes will be on UK and Canadian TV simultaneously, so now I don't have to even do that anymore. Good job, BBC, I've only been asking for 30 years or so ...

Anyway, bottom line is this: as I grew up, I discovered that if I wanted to keep the things I liked and/or supported, it made sense to pay for them in both the short and long term. Kind of like PublicTV in the states -- yeah, you can watch it for free -- but if you don't support it, eventually it will either a) go away or b) stop making programs YOU like and make programs the people who DO pay like.

As popular as Apple and Macs are now, I still feel like this idea is very applicable to the Mac community, particularly with regards to developers. Macs are hot, but they are still *maybe at best* 20% of the market. The default is still Windows, and its generally easier for developers (particularly bad and lazy ones) to write for that platform natively. They need some incentive to write top-quality software for the ultra-picky Mac platform, and I say that the best incentive is getting paid for your work.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

broken_g3 said:


> If the store could spontaneously generate a new piece of inventory it would not be such a big issue. Think about it. Suppose a homeless guy comes into your grocery store every day and steals a few cabbages. He has no money, so was never going to buy them anyway. Now, if you could create exact copies of the cabbages and place them on sale at no cost to you, what have you lost? The answer, in economic and accounting terms, is "absolutely nothing". Either you used a poor analogy or your entire argument falls apart.


And if you spent years of your life developing the ability to spontaneously generate cabbages? And if everyone said "if the homeless guy can have free cabbages, then why can't I?"

I agree the analogy isn't perfect, but think about this: we're not stealing the physical good, we're stealing the developer's time. If it's ok for one person to copy the software, then it must be ok for someone else, and someone else, and... In other words, if it's ok for one to copy it, then it must be ok for everyone. What would happen in everyone copied the software? The answer is simple - nobody's paying for the developers to do work, so they won't do work, and we won't get software.


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