# David Miller declared Mayor of Toronto



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yay  
They figure that since Miller owns downtown and he's ahead in the burbs it's all over.  

Interesting the ehMac mini poll called Miller 56% to 44% and that looks about right.  

You look at the people in campaign headquarters and Miller represents the kind of Toronto I like, clearly multicultural, enthusiastic I think we're in for a real change here.
Even the Tory manager feels "re-invigorated" is the term for Miller's Toronto to come.
'Bout time. 







it!

[ November 10, 2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: macdoc ]


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, wait for the ethnic vote...........it might just elect J.Parizeau via a massive write-in vote!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Miller represented my ward on the council for several years. He is a highly educated and intelligent man, it's about time Toronto has a mayor like this. He'll do well once he grows into the job, he's definitely capable.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

from the article;


> Still, the attractive and charming Miller ran an effective campaign


"attractive and charming"
is he a contestant on one of those dating reality shows?
Levy really ought to give her head a shake for what seems to pass as journalism.
oh wait, it's the toronto sun - nevermind...


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

Macello, I'm surprised at your use of "chickypoo". I would have thought that some leftist like yourself would have stuck to a more politically correct term, rather than a term or derision based upon gender. As punishment, you have to wax Councillor Rae's floor while dressed in a French Maid outfit.

I think that Toronto is in for some bad times in the years to come. The NDP are tax and spend types, with no sense of fiscal priorities. Current programmes cost to support the homeless cost some $30,000/year per client. For that amout of money, they could have rented the homeless a decent apartment and had plenty left over for income support, training, and food allowance. Just where is that money going, since we still have homeless?

Labour unrest in Toronto is over, with the new mayor prepared to give the unions what they want, when they want, leaving the taxpayer to foot the bill.

No, I don't think that Toronto benefited from the election last night.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Sweet is Miller's snatching vicTory from the Bassett family toady, Mr. Rogers.  

The Toronto Stun will be weeping openly in the morning after printing a page of MacNutt's boilerplate today under the pseudonym of some chickypoo ...... 

*Will pipe dreams win over good sense?*
By SUE-ANN LEVY --- Toronto Sun

"_Today it's up to Toronto's 1.65-million eligible voters to decide whether tax-and-spend NDPer David Miller will be at the city helm for the next three years or whether they want a solid business manager, John Tory, the former Rogers Cable exec .... _"

My riding went with the "former communist" and member of my union, the AFL-(don't start your car)-CIO Paula Fletcher just to get the Toronto STUN to remove their boxes from the hood. (don't open that box!)  

Next .... the Not-Quite-United-Knight ... err ... Right!.








Bring 'em on!









How sad for the Bassett-Roger's folk, losing the family "boyfriend" Ernie provincially and now their GTA Bay Street greaser.

Pardon our "schadenfreude"


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Britnell, la Levy got off lightly given her macnutt-like cliché ridden bent for the "developers" et al.

True gender-based derision I reserve for her uberchick









"_Current programmes cost to support the homeless cost some $30,000/year per client._" ..... 

You provide a good example of the Harris Legacy driving rents and evictions to unprecedentedly high levels. The costs you describe were left by the Tories to the GTA given that the Tories simultaneously quashed all initiatives for the development of affordable housing.

The deal to allow Monster Homes (and cars) on the Moraine is the payback to the Tory's and la Levy's political masters.

I suggest you lick the floor of Harris' recently abandoned office at Queen's Park in your "wellies" and naught else under the watch of his now decommissioned bodyguards.


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

You seem to have forgotten that rental unit creation dried up after rent controls were created, by Davis cutting a deal with the NDP at the time. 


Why do "slum" buildings occur? Because landlords can't justify putting more money into a moneypit that does not give a fair ROI. You get rid of rent controls, and slowly, very slowly, the rental market will come back.

Did Harris make mistakes and did he try to balance the books on the backs of the lower middle class and the poor? Sure he did. But that does not mean that socialism works worth sh*t anywhere in the world. Miller is going to flush this city down the toilet.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

There was a similar municipal "backlash" election in Vancouver over a year ago. Bitterly dissappointed by the direction that the Province was headed, the leftists pulled out all the stops and opened up the Big Union war chests of money for an all-out campaign and managed to get "their guy" into the mayor's office....and even preciptated a major sweep of all but a few seats. 

The shattered NDP and all of it's cronies cheered loudly and claimed a "new beginning" for the left. It was just a matter of time, they said, until everyone wakes up and sees how much better THEIR way was....and it would be only a short time before the whole Province once again embraced the left.

Well...it's only about a year into the new mayor's term, but things aren't exactly going as planned. To say the least.

We have squatters camped out in several public spaces right downtown, hassling passersby. They have been moved, after an extended stay, from one place to another and the cleanup at these parks has run up a huge bill that is being footed by the taxpayers. At the very same time, a local TV station went to several homeless shelters and found LOTS of empty rooms. They also noted that many of the "squatters" had brand new gas barbecues and all sorts of expensive CD players and even TV sets in their tents. Hmmmmm...

Sounds like a battle between the loud left and the conservative minded Provincial government to me.....with the newly elected left-of-center mayor and his council standing back to see what happens, while not enforcing any laws that might pi** off their hard-core sociliast voters.

A lot of things need fixing in Vancouver right now. A LOT of things! Money and time needs to be spent carefully in order to accomplish this. 

But recently the Vancouver City Council spent quite a lot of time and money on a proposal to "outlaw space-based weapons systems". 
















I am NOT making this up.

The Vancouver City budget is totally out of control, and the mayor and council seem to be on some other planet while the city suffers and the Big Unions are making out like bandits in an unguarded bank vault. When a local news station asked several people in the street what they thought of their new city leaders after the first year, most people just twirled their finger next to their heads and rolled their eyes while making Twilight Zone sounds.

Looks like they'll get dumped uncerimoniously in the next city elections. So much for the "new beginning".

(And the right-of-center Campbell government looks to be headed for another landslide victory in the next Provincial election. In fact...no one seems to even care about the upcoming NDP leadership race. Nobody's even sure who is actually running. Not that it matters.)

This sort of performance is precisely what has made the left so unpalateable to so very many people in so very many places. All over the world. And it's why they are MUCH less of a force than they were even ten years ago. And a tiny fragment of the power base that they enjoyed two decades back.

So now our most populous province has collectively turned their backs on what the rest of the world is doing, and revisited the tired old ways, both provincially and municipally. Socialism makes one last stand before it fades from the scene forever.

It should be very interesting, very interesting indeed, to see just where the Province of Ontario and the city of Toronto is at...about five years from now.

Best of luck to you all. You'll need it.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

"You get rid of rent controls, and slowly, very slowly, the rental market will come back" ... britnell.

Thanks for the neo-con myth.









We in Toronto and Ontario have fixed that ...  

Running a slum has an ROI equivalent to that of a heroin dealer. That's how Harris's got Tory coffers stuffed for dropping rent controls ... deadly simple ..... 

"The state apparatus strong enough to enforce the law is strong enough in fact to enforce fraud" *

* Helmer, John "The Deadly Simple Mechanics of Society". 
The Seabury Press, New York. 1974


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Just popped in for a browse but I have to correct a misperception. John Tory continually referred to David Miller as NDP-David Miller. That decided my support (I thought Tory was a viable mayor but such snidy remarks suggest a bitter undertow). Check out this Toronto Star article for the real supporters of the Miller campaign. Remarkably broad and diverse. It doesn't have to be us vs them. Left vs right. David Miller doesn't discriminate, pander or pay-off.

David Miller is the first breath of fresh air that Toronto has seen since the Blue Jays won the world series in 93. This is the guy who Mel Lastman told "you'll never be mayor because you say dumb and stupid things". Good old Mel. Any relation macnutt?









Back to my kennel.....


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> a fair ROI


therein lies the problem
what is "fair?"

ask the person making $8/hour, or street kid, what is fair for rent (and ROI) and you'll get a much different answer from land/slum lords, who BTW make big $$$ contributions to politicos that will beat their drum

i've seen my own rent go up every year at least 2.9% (last year 5.9% based on a 1 year spike in heating costs) with NO increase in service or upgrades - oh yeah, we did get a new flower bed out front near the rental sign


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Welcome back, jwoodget. "Back to my kennel..."  Take one of the doxies to help you find your way back here to your friends in ehMacLand. Your commentary on various topics is respected and helpful in maintaining an equilibrium of diverse views.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

And I would like to add my voice to Dr.G's in welcoming Jwoodget back to ehmac!   

You are a true asset to this place, Jim....and we have been the lesser for your absence. Truly.

Now...on to the subject of this thread:

I realise fully that Toronto was in serious need of a new mayor. Or a REAL mayor to replace the brain-dead hand puppet that you have had for the past few years.

Fair enough.

And, it's entirely possible that Mr. Miller will actually turn out to be one of that new breed of politician who runs under a leftist banner, but who rapidly adopts conservative fiscal policies and has a realistic view of the situation. (Talks 'left', moves 'right' and can say NO to the Big Unions).

There seems to be quite a lot of that about, these days.   

(die-hard leftists are terribly hung up on "labels"...and just can't stomach voting for a party with a right-wing name on it. Hence the very right wing British Columbia "Liberals". It's a form of camoflage, really). 


As for the city of Toronto...and the province in general...we shall see just what sort of shape the place is actually in by the time of the next election. 

That should tell the tale.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

_"we shall see just what sort of shape the place is actually in by the time of the next election."_

Thanks but no thanks macnutt.








In Toronto we prefer to live in the present.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Well, I see I have stirred up some sh*t here once again.

(That's my job, dontcha know)   

Where do I start?

Firstly, Mayor Miller will be inundated by demands from Big Labour soon after he is sitting in the big chair and I can't recall even ONE left of center government that ever managed to attain total labour peace. Strikes are more common during the reign of governments that are sympathetic to the Big Unions because they know they will get what they want without a real battle, even when their demands are completely unreasonable and guaranteed to cause deficits.

Good management and fair deals with Big Labour ARE an ideology unto themselves. And just as unnattainable in real life as pure socialism has proven to be.

Sorry. Just thye way it is. Check your history.

As for your assertion that Toronto hands in way more taxes than they get out....

Welcome to the system!  

BC sends billions more into Ottawa than it ever gets back in services. Alberta is practically off the charts...and even Quebec, the Province that has benefitted from much of this one-sided largesse...claims to be putting a lot more IN than it gets OUT!  

Everybody thinks that they are getting a raw deal from Confederation. Even more so since King Jean downloaded all the health care costs to the provinces and "balanced his budget". Everyone's screaming the same thing these days..."We are getting screwed!"

Cry me a river.

Threatening to become a seperate Province? Don't make me laugh.









No....wait....on second thought, go for it! There is already a steady flood of the best and brightest (and the most wealthy) Ontarians moving out here. They've recently bid up the price of a normal single family dwelling well past the half-million dollar mark out here, and it's still rising fast. I can see this becoming a veritable flood of your best minds and fattest wallets if Ontario continues down the path it is headed. Even more so if the place starts to get seriously militant and threaten to split itself into a new Province.

A new Province of about four million with no real land area, a crumbling infrastructure, serious power supply problems, high taxes (that'll likely go even higher), some of the worst polloution in the whole of North America, and a labour-friendly government confronted by Big Unions who have a pent up demand for big pay raises.

Oh...and did I mention a serious brain drain, big crime problems and a rather large debt load as well?

Yep...you guys'd be a real powerhouse all right. A force to be reckoned with, no doubt.

















Which brings me to my reply to macello's short post at the end of the previous page.....

Yes old friend, I know you guys live in the present and don't concentrate much on the future. That has been socialism's greatest weakness....and it's why that particular ideology is no longer a major force anywhere in the world.

All that the leftists have ever left in their wake was broken dreams, massive debts and unsustainable programs.

And it's all because they didn't care to look at where they were going or where the've been. Just where they are, here and now. And what they want, here and now.

A fatal flaw.

Again, check your history.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Funny the way Ontario and Toronto seem to disagree with you Macnutt. I'd say you are seriously and totally outvoted.
Somehow you view a provincial and Toronto landslide to the middle from the totally discredited PC/backroom crowd as reason to be dismayed. Man you don't know this city boyo.
There has not beenthis kind of energy and excitement in a long time.

The infrastructure needs work cuz the money is NOT coming in - 6 billion of it out net...a LOT more will be staying.

Miller already has a good history of managing labour peace in TO despite Melonheads mismanagement.

You still don't understand "wealth" when you think high property prices are an indicator of prosperity.  

Someone does

"A SOCIAL POLICY ISSUE
The housing crisis is at once a major social, economic, political and environmental policy issue. In social policy terms, it is probably the single greatest challenge for Government in the foreseeable future. The right to adequate and affordable housing is widely recognised as a basic human right in Europe. Homelessness in Ireland has increased dramatically in Ireland since the mid-1990s. Charities assisting battered housewives, former patients, Travellers and refugees struggle to find alternative accommodation for those in need. High rents, involuntary sharing and damp conditions are widespread. Now forecasts suggesting that house completions will fall by 20% by 2002 imply the crisis could get much worse.
The Government’s much vaunted Social Partnership was to bring workers and employers together to share the benefits of economic growth. This ‘partnership’ failed to include tenants and young homebuyers who were, it seemed, ‘fair game’. The gap between property owners and non-owners widened into a new social divide. Inequity in the distribution of wealth and incomes favoured landlords and speculators at the expense of the young and low to middle income earners. 
The social and political consequences of the housing crisis will doubtless become increasingly significant until effective action is taken.

HOUSING CRISIS: AN ECONOMIC POLICY FAILURE
Housing is a central policy issue in economic planning. Instability and market failure in the housing and property markets can seriously undermine a nation’s economy. Instances of failure such as the UK housing bubble under Thatcher are frequent, but somehow economists, with their flawed neo-liberal analysis, invariably lead us down the same well-worn path of boom and bust. Failure to maintain an adequate supply of affordable housing reduces labour mobility and both the boom and bust phases put considerable stress on businesses. Over-inflated land and property prices effect both enterprise and national competitiveness. They can and do trigger inflation in prices and wage demands. The massive expansion of bank credit and lending for property speculation also absorbs capital that could be invested in enterprise. Increased rents and mortgage payments leave consumers with little to spend on other products and services, especially in a downturn. Greater stability in land and property prices provides a better foundation for national competitiveness and sustainable growth. Irish economic policy can be said to have intensified economic dependence and left Ireland precariously vulnerable and without sympathy in Europe.
The construction industry has a vital role to fulfil in the national economy. As the largest indigenous industry sector it can make a vital contribution to national economic efficiency and competitiveness. In a downturn it can be a locomotive for growth. Incohesive Government planning and regulations and over-inflated land prices are now a major problem as exorbitant land prices are a very major portion of housing costs in the city. In Ireland and elsewhere the neglect of land policy, land markets and land taxation by policy makers culminates in economic and social policy failures."

High land prices are not indicators of wealth - they are indicators of failure.
High urban AND agircultural land pricing is a debilitating sinkhole, factories, people and businesses become uncompetitive. Young people and families are disheartened.
Just look to Japan to see the consequences.
Just what you want I guess.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

We will have to wait and see how well Mr Miller manages to fend off the pressures from some of the special interest groups he has allied himself with. I think he probably has the best of intentions. They always do...at first.

And you should have seen the jubilation in Vancouver when Larry Campbell and his left-of-center government was elected last year. It was the first major victory in a long string of dissappointments for the unrepentant socialist faction out here, which used to be the main power base BTW.

It was party time!

But these days the party atmosphere has withered away and many of the voters who swept them to power are now shaking their heads and wondering what they've wrought. It's safe to say that, in this former NDP stronghold, the leftist Vancouver city council will be somewaht diminished in size after the next civic elections.

And it's NOT the "tired old PC backroom politics" that will do it.

It's the sound and sucessful example of Alberta and BC's right wing governments. Everything is getting better out here. By the day.

Last month almost sixty thousand new jobs were created in Canada. HALF of those were in BC! One single province accounted for 50% of all the new jobs! Solid management and a commitment to trim the bloated public service were part of the new prosperity out here. The lowest Provincial taxes in the country also helped. As did a major reform of the dilapidated ferry system (saying "no" to Big Unions) and a move toward a more business friendly atmosphere (less government regulations).

Last month we sold more oil and gas drilling permits than Alberta EVER has in it's whole history. In fact, we are seeing lots of former BC residents move back here from Alberta because we are now the very best place to find work in the whole nation.

And we are talking jobs that pay well. They have to...look at the price of houses.

Which brings me back to why it is that so very many of Ontario's best and brightest are moving out here each week.

This place is on a serious upswing. Everyone who has some smarts and some money can see that quite clearly. (The fact that the weather is so good is just icing on the cake). Ontario's high taxes and a Province that is headed down a proven dead-end is just going to increase the draw. It's happening already.   

You should see the Ontario plates around here. On some very fancy vehicles too. The tourist season is over, so they look to be staying. 

And they're bringing their cash and their expertise with them. This is the new land of opportunity, and that's whats driving house prices through the roof.

At least that's what my wealthy neighbor told me the other night. He just moved here from Ontario, BTW.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Mr. Miller won't say NO to the big unions. He'll also not be confrontational and will work out a fair deal of value for service just the way Mayor Hazel does and won't have to say no - it's called leadership, not ideology.
Respect cuts both ways.
Free loaders on the city payroll, over paid consultants, backroom deals = unhappy unions.
Miller has tossed the backroom PC boys. He will have ZERO union problems I predict.
Tax and spend, damn right cuz Toronto already gets taxed some 6 BILLION more than it gets back and that my friend is going to end now or you can bet there will be an 11th Province.
This city is hopped.
The 905s will now join with TO - under his Melmanship 905 contributions and ideas were entirely ignored despite having arguable the smartest mayor in North America running the shop next door.
Do you know Mel never ONCE went to a all GTA meeting, not once. Sent his deputy - talk about arrogant.

You haven't seen left yet if Martin fails to make a deal with Miller and Layton he can kiss the 905 and TO off and their votes won't go PC.
This vote was a warning shot.
Clean government, structural spending, no tax cuts or kiss your Ontario vote goodbye. Get the city fixed NOW!

Still in the same old haze eh Macnutt.
Fiscal management is de rigeur for ANY major party and fiscal management includes knowing when to start spending on infrastructure.
Martin knows, McGuinty knows, Miller knows, that's why they are in power. And that my friend is what counts.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Thanks Macnutt for your hospitality, that's the polluting white trash we're chasing out of the moraine .....







... He'll be delighted to pollute your pastures.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Everyone who has some smarts and some money can see that quite clearly.


one word; "tsunami"


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Yes macello....we're getting all of your "pollouting white trash" from the moraine out here these days. Hundreds per week if the papers are right.

And they're transferring bags of wealth out here to protect it from the high taxes that your new left-of-center government will impose to pay for all it's promises.

Your tax base is eroding daily while demand for public spending goes up.

You export the rich and import the poor....creating major social housing projects will certainly attract many more of Canada's poor to your fair city...especially since they are being told to get jobs by so very many other governments across the country.

Your infrastructure is crumbling and renewed demands by a recently re-invigorated Big Labour oughta do wonders for your manufacturing sector...which is already being pressed by a higher loonie and the threat of Kyoto.

Yep....things look just peachy out there right now.
















Couldn't be better, really.

(Don't worry Michael.....we'll leave a porch light on for ya).


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> we're getting all of your "pollouting white trash" from the moraine out here these days. Hundreds per week if the papers are right.
> And they're transferring bags of wealth out here to protect it from the high taxes that your new left-of-center government will impose to pay for all it's promises.


did this exodus just start with the Liberals' election in Ontario?
OR
perhaps these escapees were runing from the Harris / Eeves regime?
look into your crystal ball macnutt and tell me what you see


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt you are so out it it makes my sides ache from laughing.
Miller campaigned specifically against special interests which were endemic under Mel - his campaign symbol was broom. His record in council is clearly against special interest and he's in nobody's pocket except the citizens of Toronto.

BC hasn't even gotten out it's deficit and with all due respect the BC economy doesn't play in the same leagues as Ontario's not even as Toronto itself.

Don't bring up the tired old Alberta argument as with that little population and that much "found wealth" it just takes a moderate hand on the tiller to do well. No sales tax wonder how they afford that.

Last time I checked it was Liberal in BC Ontario, Quebec and the Feds. Minor variations on the CENTER and well away from the looney tune show on the right.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Glad I gave you a chuckle macdoc.   

Perhaps you'd like to print this out and save it for the coming years.. You may need a good laugh or two by that time.

David Miller may well be "against" all special interest groups...but he got elected under a banner that contains one of the biggest and most powerful special interest groups in the country. They think of this change as "their change" and they think of Miller as "their man".

Want to bet they won't try to collect on that?

Just ask Gray Davis or Glen Clarke....among others.

And, as for your assesment that "Toronto's economy is bigger than BC's"....

Well that leaves me speechless. I recall on a recent thread when you were under the mistaken impression that Vancouver had only 500 thousand people and I had to point out to you that this West Coast city _alone_ had more than 2.5 million residents at the time of the last census. If you include Surrey (fastest growing city in Canada) and the rest of the many smaller cities that actually are a part of what we call Vancouver, then you might just realise that it is not much smaller than Toronto. 

And there's a whole 'nother Province attached to it! A very big and very rich one.   

Regarding the outmigration from Ontario to BC....it didn't start till well after we had dumped the NDP and it was obvious to all that this province was on the road to economic recovery. During the Harris era, we lost a signifigant portion of our population to both Alberta and Ontario. NDP policies chased out our best and brightest, just as they always do everywhere.

As for the big deficit that the NDP left in their wake (they always seem to do THAT as well) we are dealing with it quite nicely. We are scheduled to be back into black ink by this time next year...perhaps even sooner, according to the Provincial Finance Minister.

And the inflow of big money from former Ontario residents has helped speed things along. Thanks guys!  

Finally....if you are under the mistaken impression that the BC "Liberals" are anything other than a right--wing party with a left wing name, then all I can say is...

The camoflage is working. Gotcha!









If you ask the Big Unions out here, you will hear them all complaining about Gord Campbell's "Radical Right-Wing Agenda" and screaming about his cutting welfare and making the able-bodied poor go back to work, and privatising everything in sight, and cutting all the fat jobs out of the bloated public service, and his obsessive preoccupation with balanced budgets, and, and, and.....

Sounds like more "centering" to the right eh, macdoc?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Population:
4,155,779 (Postcensal estimates 2003) total BC

5.2 million people live in the GTA, 
 

And there ALSO is a province attached.

Ontario's GDP is 42% of Canada's and Toronto's about 51% of Ontario. You do the math.  

and yes BC swung right - into the centre after NOT getting with the program over the last 10 years that the rest of us have gone through - even Quebec. Just took a while to longer to to get the lotus eaters motivated.

Let's see how many PCs of any stripe are were will be elected in BC??
A party is either centrist these days or not governing.
You wanna post that note to the BC Liberals about them being PCs in disguise -
















Vancouver is NOT the size of Toronto, BC isn't the size of Toronto, there's a million more people in 20 minutes driving range of me than in ALL of BC.

BC is a fabulous province with huge growth ahead and a much more level headed government than the rather scandal ridden oddball regimes of the past which were a tad embarrassing to the rest of us.

It's not now and will not be for a long time, the economic engine of Canada.
Quebec is next in line as Ontario takes a breather after the mess the PCs and his Melmanship left behind.. 

[ November 12, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: macdoc ]


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

macdoc, the deluded don't do math.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

And you guys have also got the second most busy port on your whole coast, too.

No...wait, that's in Vancouver.

And there are masses of people and big money flowing into your city from the opposite end of the country, right?

Nope. Vancouver too. 









And TO is known as the "Gateway to the riches of the Pacific Rim" right? The most often traveled corridor to North America for the most vibrant economies on the whole planet...and half of the world's population?

Vancouver again.

And it's a filthy rich asian immigrant resident of Toronto that just bailed out our National airline with an unprecedented loan of 650 million dollars, right?

No...wait. That guy lives in Vancouver! 

And both Tokyo and Mexico city are of a similar size. Do you think that they have similar clout just because they are the same size?

I could go on.....

Perhaps I'll just leave you with this little gem.

I wonder what the NEXT census will say? Or the one after that?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

As for the "PC's in disguise" comment I only have this to say...

I never mentioned PC's at all. And the population of BC has been solidly voting Alliance or Reform for most of the last decade. Even when we were stuck with a Provincial NDP government that was elected by barely a third of the population.

And Gord Campbell has been meeting with Ralph Klein lately to compare notes and form closer ties because they are of a similar political stripe. Anyone who looks at Campbells actions since being elected can see that quite clearly.

So...are you going to include Ralphie in your newly-formed political "center"?  

Gettin pretty crowded in there, eh?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well I'm sure Port Loring Ontario has some pretty impressive stats too for it's impact on the region but it ALSO doesn't play in the same league.
BCs entire economy is about 1/2 that of Toronto alone.

Pretty place BC, good people, lots of potential, still a ways to go.  

oh by the way

"Martin hint aids Miller on airport 
Published: 11/12/2003 04:05 EST 

Paul Martin sent a strong signal yesterday that he would be willing to support David Miller's election promise to axe the proposed bridge to Toronto's island airport.''It was a major issue in the election and therefore he would take the guidance of the individuals who were elected to express that will,'' said Brian Guest, a spokesman for the incoming prime minister."

.......for the people by the people  

You'll like this too Macnutt...no seriously

Cabinet purge in the works 
Published: 11/12/2003 04:05 EST 

Paul Martin is leaning toward a sweeping overhaul of the Liberal cabinet when he takes office, making it smaller and possibly putting multiple portfolios in the hands of key allies as most of those close to Jean Chretien are shown the door. 

from the Globe no less


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Anything would be an improvement!

And I suspect that your assertion that all of BC's economy only equals half of the city of Toronto's is from the very same fact drawer that gave you the 500 thousand citizen figure for Vancouver.

Or makes you think that an NDP admimistration could actually end up being a sucess...for the very fisrt time in the history of Canada. Or the planet, for that matter.

Dream on.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

MacNutt the stats are very easy to find BC over all is 12% of Canada's GDP.
BC overall is smaller than the GTA in population by a million people. What's so hard to understand.
Tokyo has more people than all of Canada.....so what.

Toronto is NOT run by party politics - each person on council must vote according to their wards best interests and that of the city as a whole with the Mayor herding cats and making deals where he must with them and with the Feds and the Provs.

ALL of Ontario is infrastructure oriented - over due - the best mayor in the land says people in Ontario have no interest in tax cuts - they want services restoredand infrastructure rebuilt. The Tories own appointed consultant told Eves to spend 2 BILLION dollars on education.
Even Mayor Hazel lifted taxes recently and still got 92%  why - she spends out money wisely and has no debt and when she says she needs more we believe her.

Toronto will now be in synch with the GTA instead of at odds. Instead of carping Macnutt understand that we all want money spent here and we CAN pay for it. We ARE the richest city in the richest province BUT we want it done right.
Miller has a perfect model in McCallion who since 1979 has led Mississauga from triumph to triumph. He'll listen, and learn - Mel wouldn't.
Martin and McGuinty will lend a hand and funds where it's not going to a flake like Mel and his backroom deals. McGuinty has a tough road ahead with the hidden deficit mess the PCs left.
It will take a while to get Ontario's dents out, polished tuned and ready to roll again.

I'm glad BC is finally showing some prosperity - talk about wasted potential over the years. But if the property prices rise quickly and people are more disenfranchised than they already are - a smaller economy gets hit much harder.

BC has always has a boom/bust cycle with forest products. it's maturing out of that "hewers of wood and drawers of water". Just don't become the Japan of the Canada - you DON'T want their problems.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

We are hardly "hewers of wood and drawers of water" macdoc.

And our biggest cash crop is not lumber. Not by half.

What's more...we already have some of the richest people in the country living out here, and more of them are arriving every day. From Ontario.

I wish David Miller all the best...and I even hope, for your sake, that Dalton does well at Queens Park. Honestly.

But if they don't....and if Kyoto becomes law...and if the Big Unions and the social programs and the high taxes that come with them make life unbearable for your manufacturing sector....and if the mass migration continues and the west coast begins to eclipse the mighty east (as it has done in the USA) then...

We'll leave the porch light on for you.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

"And our biggest cash crop is not lumber. Not by half."

Dead right macnutt .... what grows in the clear cut areas is far bigger .... too bad it's not taxed.









Ask your neighbours.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Most of it is grown indoors...and it's quality is legendary all over the world. (I no longer partake BTW).

And yes, it's not taxed. But the massive income that is derived from it (four to six billion dollars per year by some estimates) is mostly spent right here in BC. On Taxable items.

Some guys have been buying million dollar houses JUST for this pupose. Nobody lives in em! If the police show up...they just abandon the whole thing and move on. Lately, a whole neighborhood was found to be one big agricultural project. A really nice neighborhood where the houses regularly sold for upwards of 750 big ones or more.

And there are a LOT of Porsches out here, lemme tell ya!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You mean to California





















They had to bring in the Terminator to end that particular foolishness. That's NOT a good analogy.
You are quite welcome to any of the rich scoundrels that are decamping now that His Melship is gone.

There is no question Ontario is in the shop for repair - there was a car crash called Uncle Ernie bent the steering trying to go every which way









now we are









motorin'


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Maybe *Macnutt* can enlighten us why BC seems to import everything from Chicken McNuggets to chocolate bars from depressed and polluted Ontario. Even the windows for their ferry boats came from good 'ol Ontario. I should know I hauled all that stuff to them for years. If it wasn't for old polluted Ontario and Quebec, you wouldn't have a "pot to piss in". Well maybe if you hollowed out a log or someth'n.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

KPS my ol truckin buddy....

Surely you are aware of the punitive intraprovincial trade tariffs that date from before Confederation. The ones that draw resorces into central Canada and favor the eastern manufacturing base? Try and build something out here and then ship it into Ontario or Quebec. BIG tariff. It's much easier to ship stuff south than it is to send manufactured goods back east.

That's why you still see trainloads of new Japanese cars heading for the great lakes area before being distributed back to everywhere else in the country. My moms new Miata went from Hiroshima to southern Ontario via the PPort of Vancouver. It was then shipped BACK out here for delivery....even though it had been ordered from the factory and was always scheduled to end up out here.

These intraprovincial tariffs...like the old-time inequity in paliamentary seats...was meant to guarantee a concentration of power and wealth in one manageble area, rather than having it spread across the vast and sparsly populated nation of 150 years ago.

And it's just about time to give the whole thing another look.

In fact, that was part of what Paul Martin talked about at a Vancouver Board of Trade meeting last month. The country has moved well past all the original resons for these built-in barriers and western alienation is a very real force. Our next Prime Minister recognises that this is a time bomb waiting to go off and he seems to at least be talking about changing things.

Good thing too.

Because if WE (Alberta and BC) ever decided to step away from a country that fleeces us while ignoring everything we want......

Then YOU guys out east are the ones who wouldn't have a "pot to pi** in".

Or any fuel for your cars. Or pretty much anything else that requires fuel in manufacturing or during delivery. 

Hmmm...that would be just about everything. Wouldn't it?









Plus struggling Ontario would be the only "Have" Province left to support all of those who are listed as "have-nots". No more big cash pipeline from the wealthy west to help pay the bills.

Bye bye social programs.

And I haven't even gotten warmed up yet. There's lots more.









Western alienation is a very real thing. Ignore it...and ignore US at your own peril.

We'll be just fine either way it goes.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> and ignore US at your own peril.


i assume that was a Fredian type slip there
should have been *U.S.* and not US
i caught it tho'
message understood loud and clear


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Praise for a .........Liberal  who's doing what he said he would...change things in Canada.















Get a thermometer the boy is definitely sick. 

For once in perhaps the last 125 years we have a chance to right some inequities like those mentioned.
Martin is the guy to do it.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Well I'll admit I'm not up to speed on the details of "interprovincial tariffs", but I don't think we should put all the blame there. You know the "pee pot" comment was tounge in cheek, my *left* coast buddy, but BC was always against any sort of heavy or even light industry. If the present government is different, then fine...make your own Chicken McNuggets.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

macdoc:
_________________________________________________________
"For once in perhaps the last 125 years we have a chance to right some inequities like those mentioned.
Martin is the guy to do it."
__________________________________________________________


And THAT macdoc will be a refreashing change, given Martin did little for this country, (nor paid Canadian income tax on his offshore shipping company), in his time in the house. Has he really been there 125 years? I didn't realize it had been that long. Boy, time does fly!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I invite you to read up on these unfair trade barriers KPS. They're real, they're wrong and they are going to fall sometime soon. It's long overdue.

BC and Alberta would love to have a car factory or three. We certainly have the space for them and we have the skilled manpower and management expertise. And we are a lot closer to the massive California auto market. Perhaps when hydrogen fuel cells become all the rage we will be building the cars that use them.

BTW...you DO know that Ballard Power systems, the company that is developing hydrogen fuel cells for automotive use, is based here in BC. it's just one part of a thriving high-tech sector that is helping to drive our boom. 

And, everyone out there in the east, just remeber that Jean Chretien and Paul Martin are YOU'RE Prime Ministers. Not ours. We've been collectively voting against these clowns for more than a decade...but nobody out there seems to be listening to us. They just want our money.

And if the new stooge doesn't listen to us, then perhaps we'll have to elect our own. 

Don't think we won't, either.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

While you're at it KPS, you might want to read up on where all that chicken skin comes from that they use to make McNuggets out of. 

Raw materials into Ontario...finished goods back out.

This is going to change real soon.

Trust me on this.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You don't get the changes you want by making enemies - you make them by making allies.
Quebec knows this.
Ontario plays both sides of the street.
Martin already has your grudging respect, now's the time to stop whining and support an across the board examination of the Canada we'd ALL like to see in a cooperative spirit instead of a combative one.

Don't you think Martin would love to get a fully united country - something Chretien really never did.
We ARE the second largest nation on earth in land area with enormous resources. The potential is enormous.

But some like to carp and rely on outdated ideologies..
 

Take a hint.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

I love it when they get mad and can't separate  .... not the best case for shadenfreude but it will do in a spot. 

It was so fun when the PQ tanked but I'm waxing nostalgic.

I suppose the not quite united right would have to effectively eviscerate MacNutt's above "promise" for fear of losing their fat federal pensions.









MacNutt may well have to revive the long dead cadaver of the *Sustainable Salt Spring Island Coalition *, allied with the Alberta Separation Party. (bookmark this one for posterity!)

But this might make some good folk nervous as this "coalition"  purports to be inspired by Doug Christie, the leader and founder of the Western Canada Concept, an independence movement founded in 1980 that advocates preserving the region's Christian culture and European heritage.
Doug Christie is better known as Ernst Zundel's lawyer and defender of nazi causes.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Don't try and connect me to that bunch of whackos just because I live here. I have my own bunch of whackos, thank you very much.

Seriously macello, and anyone else who is listening...

Read what I wrote at the top of this page. It is a very real sentiment out here, and it's entirely up to you guys what comes next.

We've already voted en masse for what we want many times over the past decade or two. You don't seem to be listening to us, though.

Continue to laugh it off and pretend its baseless at your own peril. Paul Martin certainly seems to realise the gravity of the situation. It's practically all he talked about while he was out here.

And he, of all people, knows where the real wealth comes from in this country.









So...have a good laugh. And watch that you don't choke on our dust.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Those whackos might be all the help you get .....


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

So...now you're calling your new crown prince a "whacko"?









Better head off to bed macello. It must be past two AM out there and you're obviously to tired to continue.

Nighty night.


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## nxnw (Dec 22, 2002)

"And whilst all of this is happening, you continue to refuse to allow us the same amount of Parliamentary seats per capita that you currently enjoy."

It's always easy to whine when you are unhindered by the facts. Here's the reality:

.....................2001.pop.............seats.........pop.per.seat
Alberta............2,974,807.............28.............106,243
BC..................3,907,738.............36.............108,548
Manitoba..........1,119,583.............14..............79,970
New.Brunswick....729,498.............10...............72,950
Newfoundland......512,930..............7...............73,276
NW.Territories.......37,360...............1..............37,360
Nova.Scotia........908,007..............11..............82,546
Nunavut...............26,745................1.............26,745
Ontario..........11,410,146.............106............107,643
PEI...................135,294................4..............33,824
Quebec...........7,237,479..............75..............96,500
Saskatchewan.....978,933.............14..............69,924
Yukon..................28,674...............1..............28,674

NOTE: This shows 308 seats, which will be the distribution at the next election. The additional 5 seats are going to BC, AL and ON, for reasons that are obvious. Nobody is having seats taken away.

[ November 13, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: nxnw ]


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

THAT was worth doing a bit of editing - damn dynamic text  
You are just as well represented in BC as we are in Ontario, why not get on PEI's case.  

Once again you whine and posture instead of offering solutions and believe me the Alliance is NOT a solution.

You have a guy coming into office who CAN and will make changes and has a clear mandate from the east to do so. Give him the same mandate from the west. You have the foundation in your own Liberal government.
Lose the rhetoric, lose the us vs them mentality and in particular lose the idea that dogma and old battlelines are worth anything.
What's done and how it's done, fair government, fiscal responsibility, are NOT any one party's or political theory's domain 
- it's ANY party's domain that wants to rule these days.

Quebec is a full partner now and at the moment if you represent the west you sound like the very worst "we're being picked on" head space that was so typical of Quebec.

You ghetto-ize yourselves.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

So...your idea of _co-operation_ is that we in the west keep on sending you our raw materials and continue to buy your manufactured goods. And we continue to subsidise the unidirectional movement of these goods with taxes on the fuel that is used to move them.

Fuel that we provide.

And whilst all of this is happening, you continue to refuse to allow us the same amount of Parliamentary seats per capita that you currently enjoy. 

And you continually elect politicians that we despise while forcing us to live with laws that we do not want.

Sounds like fine sort of _co-operation_. For you.









Well guess what? We need to see some very real and very fundamental changes in the new Paul Martin version of the Liberals. People out here are totally fed up with the system as it currently stands. If he turns out to be just more of the same old same old...then watch out.

You won't like what happens next, trust me.  

That's why the Reform Party started up and morphed into the Alliance. We are pi**ed off out here. Big Time.

Want to unite this vast country once and for all? Fine.

Then show a little _co-operation_. And maybe even a touch of _consideration_. We are real people out here and we are the ones who provide the lions share of the wealth in this country. We could live without you. You can't live without us. If you forget that simple fact ...or continue to ignore it as you have done in the past, then we will leave you behind.

And it's not a threat. It's a promise.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

_"a problem on your hands that makes Quebec and the PQ look like a walk in the park."_

Now that the party of western regionalism has sold out to the federalist cadaver of Mulronyism, we wonder of what formidable and possibly pantyless kilted







forces our Nutt speaks ... 
We are very scared!








Please describe this "problem"!








Your RCMP? (bring Sgt. Pepper  )








Or just your lonely "Cri de Coeur?  

We tremble with fear of MacNutt's "little fellers" strapped to the backs of the Secret Sinister Salt Spring Island Coalition Suicide Squad .  paddling across the Juan da Fuc .... whatever it is.









We will inform our beloved Mayor and all Torontonians of this hilarious farce not to be missed. We do need a new show here in the big boss.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Go ahead and laugh macello. Have a good guffaw.









Because I recall the gales of laughter that came from Jean Chretien and the Federal Liberals when the upstart Reform Party was first announced. What a ridiculous notion, born out of a few disaffected westerners who hadn't yet jumped on the Liberal bandwagon. They would soon see the shining path of the natural Ruling Party of Canada and mend their ways.

And they would never amount to more than a few seats. Probably never even attain Official Party Status.

Or so King Jean, in his wisdom, proclaimed from high atop his lofty throne.

My my...how times have changed.  









And, macello....despite all of your shrill rantings about this just being a paranoid delusion of a small group of people, I should like to point out that the WHOLE WESTERN PART OF THIS COUNTRY has been voting for the Reform/Alliance, and AGAINST the Liberals during the last decade. 

There are only a tiny handful of Liberal seats west of the Ontario border. This situation has not changed since the late eighties. Does that tell you something?

Or are you still in denial?

Yep...just keep on laughing.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Yes the chart that has been posted does show a slight improvement in the distribution of parliamentary seats. And that particular gripe would have been left off my list , except for one little thing...

This is how the redistribution will look _after_ the next election. Not before. Unless King Jean or Paul Martin reconvene Parliament unexpectedly, this bill will die alongside a whole batch of others (like a registry for known sex offenders, the animal cruelty act and a whole revamp of my previously mentioned transportation inequities)

Paul Martin is not bound by any sort of rule that says he must follow up on anything that Jean Chretien left on the table. And the chairman of Elections Canada has just announced that his staff are all geared up to go. Why would he do this? Perhaps the crown prince wants an early mandate? Do ya think?

So, lets try and get the facts straight, shall we? In the here and now, we are under represented, and have been for decades. 

One more thing before we return to our regular programming....

The sentiments I have expressed here are pretty universal in the west. We have been holding our collective breath and waiting for the old crook to shuffle off into the sunset because a great many of us think that his replacement could be much better. (couldn't be much worse, after all).

Paul Martin enjoys some grudging respect out here, and he may be just the man for the job. I suspect that a Martin led Federal Liberal party may even get a few new seats out here in the next election.

But most of us also think that the Liberals are deeply corrupt to the core, and just changing the face on this sack of vermin won't do much to change things. It will take a major housecleaning from top to bottom to get rid of the rot. Or an extended period in opposition.

Either one is fine with us.

But if he doesn't make some very real changes, and pretty quickly, then attitudes will harden up out here and you will have a problem on your hands that makes Quebec and the PQ look like a walk in the park.

As I mentioned previously, Paul Martin is very much aware of these sentiments in the west...and he spent his last visit here talking about what he was going to do about it. It was pretty much all he talked about, really.

We'll see.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

BTW, macdoc...

You still seem to be under the mistaken impression that the BC Liberals have any sort of connection, politically or ideologically, to the Federal version.

Nothing could be further from the truth. You need to get away from this reliance on 'labels' before you will be able to grasp the facts.

The Marine Corps and the Peace Corps _sound_ kind of similar...don't they? Are they the same?

And that's just about how far apart our "liberals" are from yours. Asking us to "get on board and vote Martin in" will get you a hearty and derisive laugh in just about any part of the far west. It might also get you a bloodied nose.

Especially in Alberta.

Just so you know.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Your message (remember your "promise"?) indeed reads as paranoiac.

"_I should like to point out that the WHOLE WESTERN PART OF THIS COUNTRY has been voting for the Reform/Alliance, and AGAINST the Liberals during the last decade._"

That's why it's a REGIONAL PARTY! ..... DUH ....









....... and here's what it looks like where the money is:

No Future for PC Party 

Oh well ...... back to the boonies .....  

Grits Would Sweep: Sun Media Poll 

"_The Paul Martin-led Liberals will be virtually unstoppable in an election expected early next year, according to a new SES/Sun Media poll. A telephone survey of 1,000 Canadians shows if current sentiment holds, the Martin juggernaut would steamroll any of the current and potential opposition leaders._"

Sorry democracy's not workin' fer ya  ol' Nutt. but that does not make you a bad person ...









Ten more years! Ten more years! Ten more years!

[ November 14, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: macello ]


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Your blood may be boiling due to your brawling "(And I'm just as abrasive in real life as I am on this forum. Trust me.)" personal "style" as we're not hearing anything like your sentiments from elsewhere out west here at ehMac. 

I do realize that this is a passion of yours ... keep it up.









Miller, Martin and McGuity ..... Ten more years ..eh?

Gotta go ...... lotsa work to do ... policy etc., ...... actions speak louder than words.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

You just don't seem to be able to see what is right before your very eyes, do you macello?

Ceretainly Paul Martin wasn't speaking to just little old me when he spoke about how ending western alienation was a make-it-or-break-it goal for his term as Prime Minister. Was he?

And again I suggest you look at a map. See that big huge area that surrounds your little central zone?

That big thing is called "Canada". Say it slowly and you'll find it just rolls off your lips after a while.

Next lesson tomorrow.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

"Next lesson tomorrow."

Let us know what the lesson was in a couple of days









I'll call you on it


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Like the T-shirt says....

"If I have to explain, then you wouldn't understand"

My last post on this thread.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Look at a map, macello. The Liberals are also a regional party.

At this particular moment, the region that thinks the sun shines out of Martin's butt happens to hold sway over all the rest of the country. And it has most of the old-time money.

But just keep on exporting your wealthy out here, and try and stay on that dead end road that your region has just voted into power and we will see who ends up inflicting what upon whom.

Imagine, for a moment, what it would be like to be ruled from afar by the Alliance/Reform for a decade or so. Even though your whole region was bitterly opposed to them and everything they stood for....and regularly voted en masse against them.

That's where we in the west are, right now. Make light of it and you demonstrate just the sort of central Canadian attitude that makes our blood boil. A form of ignorance combined with a shocking lack of consideration that we find utterly repulsive.

Like I said....keep on laughing.  

Paul Martin announced, when he was out here " If, during my tenure as Prime Minister, I cannot end this overwhelming feeling of western alienation, then I will consider my term to have been a failure".

We will see if he ends up being remembered as a great PM or as a failure.

Actions speak louder than words.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Okay...I'm breaking an old personal rule and dredging up this thread from back when David Miller was first elected Mayor of TO just so all of you can actually see what we were all saying back then.

It's a long slog if you read the whole thing...and there are some side issues that dominate a few pages...but it's worth a look, if you are really searching for the truth.

Or at least the truth as it is seen here at ehmac.

Or as it WAS seen here at ehmac, last november.

But be warned! If you read any posts that were written by macdoc...then you need to scroll down to the bottom of his post BEFORE you read what he has written!

Look closely at the tiny notification at the bottom of the page that says if it was "edited"...and WHEN it was edited.

Check and see if he has re-written this post very recently, in order to cover any bad calls that he made back then.

He has been known to do this in the past.. 









But the rest of this thread is worth reading. 

Especially if you are living in Toronto right now.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Must be some sort of record on the last post column macnutt, ..... six consecutive hours of whining to ignore ....


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"*Check and see if he has re-written this post very recently, in order to cover any bad calls that he made back then.

He has been known to do this in the past.. * "

* Tell us ALL where and when*.... with the exception of the sting which obviously has elicited an anaphylactic reaction. 
Perhaps keeping an Epi-pen around for the unexpected brush with reality would be advised.  

You make a statement that can be verified as true or false. 
Go ahead and show us the truth of it

* "he's done it before in order to cover any bad calls that he made back then." He has been known to do this in the past.. * 
You make this claim... - *then back it up!!!!! Where - when* .









............you like to shovel out the bull****....your task awaits thee Hercules, and there's no handy river around this time.
The manure-o-meter is getting off the scale here. 
Time to prove your contention or fall on your sword.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Sorry macdoc....

You are the one who has shredded your own credibility by going back and re-editing a post you made almost six months ago. Just to cover a very bad call that is now obviously quite unpopular with so very many people here at ehmac.

You were practically over the top with glee when Miller and McGuinty won...and loudly predicted that Martin would soon follow for the hat trick. This was going to signify a "new beginning" according to your august self.

A "better way", and a sound rejection of any sort of other ideology.

Too bad it hasn't worked out that way. In fact, it's gone pretty badly for your favorite politicians in recent days. Probably only going to get worse for them, as well.

Lile I said...this is all pretty unpopular stuff right now with vast numbers of the people here at ehmac. 

Most of them are Ontario residents, BTW.  

I had no idea that we could go back and actually change what we had written in our posts, so long ago. 

I would never think of doing this. Most everyone else here would not think of going back that far in order to cover a mistake, either.  

So...I just gotta ask...

Macdoc....you, and a very few others here, have been so overwhelmingly POSITIVE in your unwavering support for the now discredited Jean Chretien and his corrupt Liberals here at ehmac. 

For a VERY long time, by the way...

So....are you planning on going back into these old posts and changing what you wrote back then...just to reflect the current realities? To "soften the blow" so to speak?

Or are you willing to deal with the white-hot fury that is currently raging in this land whenever the name "Chretien" or "Liberals" is brought up in conversation?

Are you willing to explain...to us ALL...just exactly why you have always maintained that these horrible crooks were the _very best_ people to lead us? 









Do you have a thick enough skin to handle the heat? Or will you take a few days off, while hoping that it will all subside?

Or will you go back...wayyyy back...and actually ALTER what you wrote way back then?

I anxiously await your answer on this. So do quite a few others here at ehmac.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

say what you will about Jean Chretien, but he did keep us out of an unjust invasion in Iraq.

A war that Belinda Stronach and her re-spawned Conservatives have admitted they would have supported with Canadian ground troops.

Ok, who here votes for sending troops into Iraq?

Paul Martin has said that he unequivicaly (sic?) believes in universal access to national health care.

Belinda Stronach has alread said she believes in a 2 tiered (read; if you got money, you got health care) health care system.

Who here wants to pay for a visit to their local hospital, especially in an emergency?

OK, I count one so far. Macnutt.
Anyone else?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Still smarting eh Macnutt.  

Aside from one added line that was a setup which you fell for, you've so far come up entirely empty handed. Which of course is understandable because there aren't any "edited opinions".

As for supporting the Liberals - you'll find my support of Paul Martin quite consistent. David Miller ditto - only time will tell on both.
McGuinty was and still is highly suspect as a leader. It was hoped that some of the partisan barriers to Fed/Provincial relations would be reduced by having the same party in both venues. That has yet to be seen.
We KNOW Miller is a consensus player - has to be - but so far McGuinty is floundering. It's early yet tho.

Chretien long overstayed his welcome and I said so a number of times. The fact is, he managed to stay in power for a long time, warts and all and, due in a large part to Martin, left a healthy economy. He also stumbled through getting to a united Canada. Good intent, marginal execution. His wooing of Charest stands huge in that drama.

That's Machiavelli all over as was his ability to dodge this scandal which happened on his watch.
As usual you confuse observation with approbation.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Miller is performing well in Toronto. He's a very popular major and has stuck to his guns. He's been let down by the provincial and federal governments but has not whined (unlike Dalton). He's even been apologised to by our chief of police, Julian Fantino, who clearly favoured Milller's opponent, John Tory. The two (Miller and Fantino) appear to be getting along after a rocky start. Miller has set the standard for public consultations (something that McGuinty has used just to delay decisions so far) and has been steadily releasing trial ballons of ideas. Some of these have triggered knee-jerk reactions, some will stick now while others will become more palatable as people think about them and offer alternatives.

The contrast with our previous mayor is jarring. Miller has made a few mistakes but he has taken responsibility for them. It's still early days, but he's exceeding expectations as far as I am concerned.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Agreed that Miller offers vision and substance. Mel Lastman was great ruling the roost of North York but after the megacity move he proved to be in over his head. Miller makes mistakes but as noted, he doesn't whine and spend all his time indulging in the inanities of The Blame Game. When he stumbles he quietly picks himself, dusts himself off and gets back to work. He has several years of calcified, big-city cronyism to wade through but he strikes me as remarkably level-headed and open to all sorts of ideas... whereas Mel always seemed to be a man with something to jealously protect - or something awful to hide. Either way, for me personally he was difficult to trust and he often seemed incapable of understanding that the job requires great leadership and political _cojones._

Toronto's awash in both promise and problems, and it's going to require extraordinary dedication and fortitude to turn this city's fortunes around. I wish Mayor Miller well.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Good assessments. 
Toronto is a 10 -15 year uphill battle and Ontario likely the same to get the infra structure and "services/income" sharing redone.

This will NOT be a one term turn around for any government. It will take sustained efforts by all levels. With the enhanced surplus Martin should be jumping in with both feet to support Miller but McGuinty is a real boat anchor on the other two leaders.

I hope Martin just gets on with governing and putting policies and structures in place, now - not after an election.


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