# Careful out there buying off Kiji or Craigslist GTA



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Good friend and client got mugged trying to buy a MacBook Air off of Kiji.

He's okay tho roughed up .... he gave as good as he got and ended up only losing his iPhone in the scrap..his background in the dodgier parts of London England stood him in good stead...

Cops know about the guys doing it but have not caught them.

Pretty sophisticated and pretty violent....one victim ended up with a broken back after being tossed down a garbage chute ( tale courtesy of the cops that responded ). Nasty enough that they have the major crime unit engaged trying to catch them ( Toronto area ).

Not restricted to dodgy areas or buildings.....price was not out of line and they do a floating operation using other people's apartments...


Caveat Emptor big time......


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

I have bought and sold numerous items here and on Kijiji/Craigslist.

Keep it simple. Always meet inside a Tim Hortons, or a mall. I have gone once to a person's home and it was a weird episode. Never again. 

Glad to hear your friend is OK.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Some people are just animals... I hope they get these guys and throw the book at them for robbery, assault and with a broken back involved sounds like they could even go for attempted murder.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

^^^
This is Canada - the only punishment is the wait for a trial date...


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## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

have the police released any composite sketches or descriptions?

I've used craigslist a lot over the past few years. i've run into a few scammers and flakes, but never anything violent.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I've done dozens of deals via Craigslist - mostly buying and selling guitars and other musical instruments. Depending on my reading of a correspondent, I'll either meet them on their turf, in a busy public place or, if I'm confident, at my own house. So far nothing untoward has ever went down.

Gotta use your head in these situations.

Coincidentally, there's a great article on the uncanny success of Craigslist... a neat read.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Max said:


> I've done dozens of deals via Craigslist - mostly buying and selling guitars and other musical instruments. Depending on my reading of a correspondent, I'll either meet them on their turf, in a busy public place or, if I'm confident, at my own house. So far nothing untoward has ever went down.
> 
> Gotta use your head in these situations.
> 
> Coincidentally, there's a great article on the uncanny success of Craigslist... a neat read.


My experience is also exactly that Max, albeit mostly with Kijiji and for everything from hi-fi gear to computers and peripherals to cameras and lenses, buying and selling. I've never even had an inkling of a bad experience because I trust my instincts and if something smells fishy or seems wrong, there most likely is and just back away.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

A somewhat related question -

If I buy a Mac on Craigslist or Kijiji, how do I know it's not stolen?

Is there somewhere I can look up serial numbers and find out what the story is on a particular Mac?


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

krs said:


> If I buy a Mac on Craigslist or Kijiji, how do I know it's not stolen??


You don't!!!

I think in that context a much wiser approach is to ASSUME it is stolen until proven otherwise - bill of sale, ID, etc.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Hey, Screature... yeah, I've done stuff via Kijiji too... feels the same as CL, really. Buying and selling gear via these routes, you really have to sniff out the situation. If a fellow is acting dodgy, whether it's via email or phone, I've found it's better to back off and move on... in my case, if an instrument is going for too little money, it's usually either hot or it's been damaged - If it's hot, or I even suspect it is, I just don't bother. Bad karma and all that... and if it's damaged, like a neck snap or a bad crack running through the body, that sort of thing, then they ought to come out and tell you so in the body of the original ad. It's also a red flag if someone refuses to send pix of the item in question - or gives some lame excuses for not being able to do so.

Anyway, like I said, use yer noggin. I was in a downtown Tim Hortons during the lunch hour two summers, meeting a guy for a trade. I asked to meet him there because I couldn't get a read on the fellow via emails and I just felt better meeting in a public place. My fears were, as it turned out, premature. It was a good transaction and the guy was a nice young fellow. I watched him walk in through the same door I had just used, minutes before. Both of us lugging these big guitar cases. No problem finding each other, that's for sure. Proceed to sit down and strum the guitars, checking that all is good. No one looked up or took notice of anything unusual. Shake hands and say goodbye, hope you enjoy it. Never saw him again. It was pure Craigslist.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

rgray said:


> You don't!!!
> 
> I think in that context a much wiser approach is to ASSUME it is stolen until proven otherwise - bill of sale, ID, etc.


Agreed. I also document things like serial numbers and, when possible, look them up in various online registries to determine whether a seller is properly representing the goods in question.


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## knightwrangler (Jan 20, 2008)

MacDoc said:


> Good friend and client got mugged trying to buy a MacBook Air off of Kiji.


MacDoc:

I responded to a posting on Kijiji for a Macbook Air more than a week ago and I'm wondering if this is the same ad.The price point was to good to be true, but being curious I emailed this person to find out more information. We ended up exchanging a few emails but as I asked more questions the more this person got elusive in his/her answers and on meeting. When he/she didn't leave a contact number or address or even meet me at place of my choosing then I knew it was a scam and I reported it to Kijiji.

Can you ask your friend/client if he remembers the person's email?

This poster had several ads running on Kijiji's website. Hope your friend is OK and on the mend.


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## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

As soon as ebay came around, I never went back. It's not perfect either, but at least I can avoid the weirdness/potential dangers of local pickup. It always makes me cringe when I see an ad anywhere that specifies "local pickup only". That is always a huge red flag for me.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Could be - I'll ask - glad your spidey sense worked.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Funny. I avoid Ebay like the plague myself. It must be owing to the the kind of stuff I seek. I much prefer to handle the gear myself - to inspect it for flaws, feel its heft and balance, see if I like to play it. You can't bond with a guitar or bass that's just a bunch of pixels on an Ebay seller's site. No matter how well he or she is rated, you're buying blind. With some items that doesn't matter. I have never bought a guitar blind and I'm not likely to. There are too many lemons out there - new or used, it makes no difference. You have to be at least somewhat discerning or you are going to part with a lot of dough and get little in return for it.

And to tell you the truth, I have met some really interesting people via Craigslist... some of them I genuinely like and with whom I now do regular business. These are largely local people who share my passion... and I've never had a bad experience that was due to some ill-intentioned individual out to swindle me, much less beat me to a pulp and snatch my bread. Sometimes I've come out with the worse end of the deal, but that was me being ignorant or naive or not doing my due diligence (i.e. not inspecting for hairline cracks, inspecting the guitar in lousy light, not plugging it in if it was an electric, etc).

I guess your mileage varies.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I furnished the entire house on Carigs and Kiji and had fun - hell - with iKea stuff you hae a huge selection usually at half price.....

Still more technical gear .....seems to be a magnet for scammy behaviour and now seriously criminal in this case.

That said since the perps are occupying other people's places - how do you tell ....in theory you know where the person lives...usually a safety factor for the buyer

If they wanna get you - they usually can....unfortunate reality  - as mentioned there are some neat people to be met and most transactions are fine..


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## imachungry (Sep 19, 2004)

CL scammers are also tricking unsuspecting johns and beating them senseless, according to the local hooker board TERB. Any opportunity where you're carrying more than a few hundred in cash. 

I have found CL to be surreal-ly bad sometimes. You tend to attract people that are seriously impaired in the mental and decorum department. Not all, but too many. 

I sell on closed boards like this, where people have a posting and transactional history. I just sold some tires on a car board I frequent because it's like this--people are known entities, relatively speaking. Less signal-to-noise and more to lose.


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Closed boards are cool if what you're buying and selling are mostly mainstream consumer items. If I tried to buy and sell vintage and cool used guitars via Ehmac I sure wouldn't get much business. Even if I widened it to various musician forums, the scope is nowhere near as wide as what you get with CL or Kijiji. I live smack dab in Canada's largest market. I can do a lot of face-to-face meets with local people and as long as I'm reasonably careful things go well.

Different items require different strategies.


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## imachungry (Sep 19, 2004)

Max said:


> Closed boards are cool if what you're buying and selling are mostly mainstream consumer items. If I tried to buy and sell vintage and cool used guitars via Ehmac I sure wouldn't get much business. Even if I widened it to various musician forums, the scope is nowhere near as wide as what you get with CL or Kijiji. I live smack dab in Canada's largest market. I can do a lot of face-to-face meets with local people and as long as I'm reasonably careful things go well.
> 
> Different items require different strategies.


Sure, but I think the point I'm making is to screen people more carefully instead of going for the top dollar. I have never been screwed by CL because price is not my first priority--I choose who I want to sell to. If people don't provide names, or some profile I can check in some way, I don't bother with them. When I posted my iphone on CL, I got so many red flags emails it got to be surreal. No names, one word emails, delete!

I agree that with vintage guitars you're going to have more problems


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Yeah, agreed on your point re: screening. I try to form my impressions over multiple emails and/or phone calls. If someone appears to be having difficulty offering personal details or otherwise comes across sketchy about the wares they have to sell (or act the same way in attempting to buy something of mine), I just drop it all and politely sign off. See ya!

Not saying I can't be screwed. But if you go in with your faculties intact and you know of the potential pitfalls, that's pretty decent insulation.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MazterCBlazter said:


> ...Those characters must be a huge embarrassment to their community.


Why? If they were a bunch of tattooed hoodlum white guys they wouldn't be an embarrassment to my "community".


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## esquilo22 (Nov 1, 2007)

I never had problems with craigslist. But one rule of thumb is: Always meet at a mall or coffee shop.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Of course they would be. How do you think Surrey got it's horrible reputation? Not all the people there are idiots, but enough to paint the place a terrible color.


Ok MCB, we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not talking about Surrey I am talking about your comment, at any rate I know I'm not going to change your mind on this point, I probably shouldn't have made my post in the first place.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MazterCBlazter said:


> If my comment may have come out as racist, I apologize for that. Poor wording on my part. Sorry about that. I think we all dislike hoodlums of every sort.
> 
> Or perhaps I am misinterpreting your point altogether?? I'm over-multi-tasking right now and probably screwing a few things up in the process.
> 
> Peace.


Yes, that is how it came across to me, and the point I was trying to make, I wouldn't say racist per say though. It is just that the actions of any individual from any race, religion, etc. should not be viewed as a reflection of the greater community that shares that particular commonality. So that community should not be "embarrassed" by those individuals actions as it should not have any bearing on them. (Except where racial profiling is a reality in the broader community and then of course it is of concern to that "minority" community because of the ramifications to the community of the behaviour of those "bad eggs". However, I would still argue that they shouldn't be embarrassed, angry perhaps but not embarrassed.)

At any rate thanks for the apology and no worries.


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## Mckitrick (Dec 25, 2005)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Once I sold a bunch of gym equipment to a bunch of tattooed scary looking East Indian fellows, like part of a gang you see getting arrested on the news. They got thousands of dollars worth of stuff in mint condition for a few hundred bucks. I was moving and was blowing my stuff out cheap for fast sales.
> 
> After they came and got it, everything seemed OK, no problems, they were a little strange, but everyone was happy. He said he was a few dollars short, I told them not to worry about it. Gave them extra stuff too.
> 
> ...


Shocking! Having gone to India and having very close ties with Indian folks, this is very disappointing since almost everyone I've dealt with from India is very warm and kind, especially when you're accepting of them and their culture.

It just goes to show you though, the "bad apple" analogy really does hold water. I'm glad you got the cops involved and they took care of the situation.


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## knightwrangler (Jan 20, 2008)

Mckitrick said:


> Shocking! Having gone to India and having very close ties with Indian folks, this is very disappointing since almost everyone I've dealt with from India is very warm and kind, especially when you're accepting of them and their culture.


I have to agree with you, although I have found through my experience in selling to these people that there can be a culture clash which can form some mis-communication and can come across the wrong way-to the point that it can become difficult to do a proper transaction.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Max said:


> Closed boards are cool if what you're buying and selling are mostly mainstream consumer items. If I tried to buy and sell vintage and cool used guitars via Ehmac I sure wouldn't get much business. Even if I widened it to various musician forums, the scope is nowhere near as wide as what you get with CL or Kijiji. I live smack dab in Canada's largest market. I can do a lot of face-to-face meets with local people and as long as I'm reasonably careful things go well.
> 
> Different items require different strategies.


Vintage and cool guitars? What do you have?


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## Griz (Apr 2, 2008)

Hmmm....

Never considered that before since most of my life, I felt I was always the guy to be afraid of for the most part, it never even dawned on me to worry that much about buying at someone's home.

As I get older and less...um...scary/threatening? Perhaps I should be more careful!

Good point!


What movie was that: "...you all don't get it do you? _I'm_ not locked up in here [prison] with you, _you're_ all locked up in here with _me_!"


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

However: will PM you, man.


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## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Griz said:


> What movie was that: "...you all don't get it do you? _I'm_ not locked up in here [prison] with you, _you're_ all locked up in here with _me_!"


Watchmen!!


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

My friend said he went in for a lineup and identified the guy and they caught him.

:clap:


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## Griz (Apr 2, 2008)

MacDoc said:


> My friend said he went in for a lineup and identified the guy and they caught him.
> 
> :clap:


Lineups suck. Their accuracy is ****-poor for identifying criminals. Much like polygraph, the whole thing is essentially a charade. If you doubt either of these claims, do some research.

Glad to hear it worked for your friend though. Justice can make your whole year when it occurs. Seriously, it does work sometimes ...just not often enough to warrant it as a standard tool ...sadly.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

He was nose to nose for a good while - no mistake here.
I'm told the rest of the gang may go down.


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## knightwrangler (Jan 20, 2008)

MacDoc:

Were you able to find out this party's alias on Kijij??


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I just got some AppleCare on eBay. I was very apprehensive. However, the transaction went well and Apple accepted my serial number.

I am a happy camper. I buy bikes/bike parts off of Pinkbike.com and sell/buy some stuff here on ehmac. I don't think I will ever venture to Kijiji/Craiglist.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Adrian. said:


> I just got some AppleCare on eBay. I was very apprehensive. However, the transaction went well and Apple accepted my serial number.
> 
> I am a happy camper. I buy bikes/bike parts off of Pinkbike.com and sell/buy some stuff here on ehmac. I don't think I will ever venture to Kijiji/Craiglist.


Sorry, but who gains when Craigslist and kijiji stories get moribund and frightening?

Regular stores, local dealers, big chains.

You have to be really careful dealing with strangers and should be very cautious, check them out first, don't deal with the anonymous. Yes, the world is full of criminals. Do not set yourself up to be ripped off. Deal on ehMac, for example, if at all possible. But there are bargains and deals from time to time on Craigslist/kijiji and a lot of decent people out there.


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> He was nose to nose for a good while - no mistake here.
> I'm told the rest of the gang may go down.


I'm David's " friend" the actual guy that got mugged. 

Let me cover a couple of things that make this scary . I am super careful having worked in London areas equivalent to Harlem where I was one of the few white guys around. So I have been around the block.

The computer was a fair price 
The guys email etc. checked out 
The building was a respectable building. 
The woman who I spoke to sounded respectable with a small child running around in the background.
I stripped myself of all jewelry wallet money etc prior to going up.

These guys have nothing to sell and are there for the money that the know you will have. They have been known to nab somebody in the parking lot of a Tim Horton's or do a deal and then take you for a ride to your bank machine..

Sorry guys there is no easy way to avoid these new brand of scum


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

The end of the story. The two scum buckets where arrested both with records. They had committed multiple robberies . Guess what? They where young offenders one of them is already out and the cops figure they may get a years probation.. 

My phone was sold and is one it's way to China.

One of them is still suffering some injuries and has trouble walking and mentioned to the cop that he would like to charge me ... 

Hail the Canadian justice system.. 

Bottom line now they have found this method of robbery works they will just get better and better at it ... Coming soon to neighbourhood near you


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

When Andy sez he's been around the block u gotta believe him..










take away - don't mess with an old salt


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

He's so ugly, he's cute!


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