# What's your stance on this situation: High School Teacher = Bikini Model



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

From CNN:

Apparently, this Social Studies teacher for a high school in the United States also poses for some U.S. National Bikini Entertainment company as a side-activity. Technically, there's no school policy or law that makes what she's doing against policy/rules or illegal, but school officials and parents say posing grahically on the Internet for an entertainment company, while working for a high school isn't professional, and wrong as well. You can watch the CNN video of the story on CNN's main web site.

What's your stance on the situation?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

As an ex-high school social studies teacher who was reprimanded for taking part in a peaceful protest march against the war in Vietnam, I have no problem with this teacher, or what she did re the online pics.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Cue Van Halen...


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

This thread is pointless without pics.


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## Oliver_G (May 9, 2005)

As a 16 year old male student I say... keep on rocking in the free world.
Hott teachers make learning fun. lol


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## Boomcha (Jan 29, 2004)

Agreed! Where are those images?

Oh wait .. here we go.

http://wizbangblog.com/2006/05/11/florida-teacher-in-hot-water-over-swimsuit-photos.php

I feel like I'm in need of detention.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

What's the big deal? She's "covered"... more or less. 

Would this be a such an issue if she wore a thong bikini on a beach while vacationing?


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

Makes me want to study HARD!!!! 

over the top? well, I'm a football fun, what gives...


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## moonsocket (Apr 1, 2002)

I have no problem with this.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Parents' Night would be fun!


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

There are more employer restrictions appearing. I'd like to see the line firmly drawn on the side of freedom in one's personal life, but I suspect workplace rules will continue to creep into leisure time.


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## MacDaddy (Jul 16, 2001)

« MannyP Design » said:


> Cue Van Halen...


The teacher for the Hot For Teacher video lives here in Calgary, she works at Cardel homes (and is still hot)


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Go Teach!

Seriously, though, her time is her time. But hey, in the small town I just escaped from, the teachers have to go to a different town if they want to go out for a beer, or even dinner at the pub. Stupid people and stupid rules are everywhere.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

When I was in junior high school our art teacher was 'Ms. Hansen' and she looked very similar to the lady in the photos. She was a good art teacher. 

I'm not in favour of people (of either gender) exploiting their bodies, (objectifying oneself is as bad as being objectified by others), but I don't think they can say anything as long as it doesn't affect her ability to teach.

I do wonder, however, about the example she is setting for the young girls in her charge. Teen girls are notorious for having self esteem issues. How she conducts herself in real life is more important than some pictures in a magazine. Far more important.


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## shoe (Apr 6, 2005)

its not like shes wearing the bikini to school


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## Eukaryotic (Jan 24, 2005)

Parents and adults will make a much bigger issue out of this than the students.


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## DoNotPokeTheScreen (Jun 9, 2005)

It's her choice and I don't have a problem with that choice. Sometimes we do need some extra cash to pay the rent/mortgage etc.

I remember back in my highschool, the attentance office's lady posed as the Toronto Sun's girl one time. Man, she is HOT!


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

President Clinton had an extra-marrital affair. He got to keep his job.

Kate Moss did cocaine. She got to keep her job.

Barry Bonds does steroids. He gets to keep his job.

Teacher poses in a bikini, legally, totally legit. FIRE HER!!!


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> President Clinton had an extra-marrital affair. He got to keep his job.


It was only his cigar that had the affair.


Strange how none of us has been answering the question in the title: "what is your stance?"


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Doggie?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Getting your ST and Ds mixed


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

*Wayne: Schwing! 
Garth: Schwing!*

View attachment 1505


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

All I have to say is GOD DAMN! I certainly would have taken social studies a little more seriously, that's for sure.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

The only time I got an A+ in french was with an attractive teacher. At least she seemed that way at the time but it's a tough comparison because most of my french teachers were not French. Other subjects were more random from a looks perspective, but highly correlated with good teachers versus mediocre and bad.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

My high school French teacher was an old hag in her 60s in the 1960s named Agnus Thornton. About as French as my big toe. She succeeded in bullying her way through the course and alienating every student in the class. Most never did get past the ability to read a cereal box in French and even forgot that over the years.

It was a shame that French teachers knew nothing about the language those years in Saskatchewan. That is part of the reason national bilingualism failed so miserably in the west.


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

Beej said:


> Doggie?


I was thinking more along the lines of "tray table stance"; you know, upright and locked   







What line? I didn't see any line...


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Every once in a while, the definition of "hot" is transferable, as it is herein.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content











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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Sinc - mine was name Maude...turned me off French entirely - an ex Parisian battleaxe also in her 60s

••••

....back to our regularly scheduled program.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> Sinc - mine was name Maude...turned me off French entirely - an ex Parisian battleaxe also in her 60s
> 
> ••••
> 
> ....back to our regularly scheduled program.


Yep, all part of the failure of official bilingualism. A shame to be sure.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Ok computer geeks... Easy with the images and links on ehMac now.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

I wonder if anyone asked that parent what he or she was doing looking at pictures like that??? 

Maybe someone should be investigating his or her suitability to being a parent.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Now I see why we're talkin' about Van Halen... talk about being hot for the teacher :love2: ... She's one hot teacher.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

I don't see a problem with it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm pretty sure any student who cares already decided if she was "hot". After all, at least one study shows that on the Rate My Professor website, the single largest correlating factor on how well college students rate their instructors is whether they are hot or not, so I'm pretty sure those who cared already noticed.

Gerry would probably add a resounding "Trust me on that".

Of course, it's a bad idea to bring it to the attention of her students. The photos, by the way, were taken when she was a college student, which CNN kind of forgot to mention.

" ... Earlier this week, a parent complained about the pictures of Chevillar posted on the U.S.A. National Bikini Team Web site ..."

Well, that got the ball rolling. And what happened once the parent complained? Lots of attention and publicity, that's what.

"... and some students have begun sending links to the site, although the site is blocked by district computers. ..."

Oh, I see. So, too late then. Idiots.

And now? It's a video story, no less, on CNN. Riiiiight. That's the way to handle it. Real problem solvers, every one of these people. Ought to get medals, I say.

Common sense? Not so common, it seems.

http://educationwonk.blogspot.com/2006/05/teacher-bikini-and-world-wide-web.html


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

My wife is a teacher... 

Nothing illegal, immoral or harmful going on here. You can see more in a Sears catalog. 

Who gives a rat's backside?

You go, girl!


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## RevMatt (Sep 10, 2005)

FeXL said:


> My wife is a teacher...


Has she ever posed for scantily clad pictures?


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

RevMatt said:


> Has she ever posed for scantily clad pictures?


I somehow doubt that, but FeXL may have!


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Next time I'm in Calgary I have to try and arrange an ehmac meeting. I get the feeling that I've missed out on too much.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Beej said:


> Next time I'm in Calgary I have to try and arrange an ehmac meeting. I get the feeling that I've missed out on too much.


Yep, you have so.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

RevMatt said:


> Has she ever posed for scantily clad pictures?


Frequently.

I utilize her services as a model to try different lighting setups, props, techniques, clothing (or lack thereof), etc., on a regular basis in the studio.

And no, you can't, but thanks for asking. 

We may have an opening for a new spritzer person, however. The last one tripped over his tongue during a boudoir session and we had to call 911...

Sorry, SINC, you're 0 for 2. I've never posed in the buff (how freaking scary would that be... ). There is a gal in Lethbridge who has asked me to model nude for an oil painting. I told her that I would exchange like photos of her for the painting and she backed out. I'd consider it if she would...


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

It would be interesting if she could discuss the whole thing in her Social Studies class but she'd probably get in trouble for that as well.

An acquaintance of mine who is a teacher criticized another teacher for getting breast implants as being a bad example for the students. I don't really think that was fair of her to judge her that way.


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## overkill (May 15, 2005)

If only my computer teachers looked like that!


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## rondini (Dec 6, 2001)

*hot*

except for the fake boobs


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## cavemanatlarge (Jan 30, 2004)

Who could blame her. The pictures do not show too much. As a first year teacher in the US, she does not make much money. I have no idea what she was paid, but I bet it significantly helped her bottom line for the year.

More power to her.

Caveman


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## LaurieR (Feb 9, 2006)

I have no problem whatsoever with what this teacher is doing.


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## 9mmCensor (Jan 27, 2006)

People need to be free to do with what they please in there free time. As long as she is not posing on school time, she should be able to do whatever she please.


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## Cameo (Aug 3, 2004)

The only problem is others jealousy I guess.

If she was selling herself or selling drugs - then there would be a problem.

Lots of students parents do or at least *did* wear a bikini - *in public.*
So, I don't have a problem - Heck, I used to wear a bikini on a public beach
and I doubt I was a bad influence on anyone.


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## AppleAuthority (May 21, 2005)

I wouldn't mind being an exchange student there for a couple months.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... As a first year teacher in the US, she does not make much money. I have no idea what she was paid, but I bet it significantly helped her bottom line for the year. ..."

She posed in College and claims she had forgotten about them, and the district is paying her $US 33,000 a year. I would guess she was paid a few hundred dollars, which is more or less the going rate for a non-nude glamour session and release from someone who is not a professional model.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## baiting-women (Nov 14, 2007)

Very nice forum, I'm an italian reader and your english is simple and easily understanded from me 

Regards,
Jessica


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

I think it's a conflict of interest if she were doing so while teaching. Reason being, we are trying to keep young girls off the pole; if I had a daughter this would be top of my list; and in the grander scale out of the porn industry. Sure I love porn and love a good night at the strip joint, so yeah I'm a hypocrite but I have yet to meet someone in the porn industry with their head anywhere close to being on right. Nobody gets a Masters Degree and decides to get into the porn industry; NO ONE!

I had a highschool teacher that a friend of mine was 100% sure was in Playboy back in the day; I could see it. She wasn't smokin', but I could say she could have been smokin' a few years earlier. She was tearin' me a new one, one day and I needed to pull out my Ace. Luckily my friend was beside me...."Miss *name removed* said he saw you in Playboy before....". His face went red, her face went red and she smiled under her breath as she softly said no. She stopped yelling at me and proceeded to teach....Man I miss high school.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> Nobody gets a Masters Degree and decides to get into the porn industry; NO ONE!


Er, beg to differ.

From Ron Jeremy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, emphasis mine.

"He earned bachelor's degrees in education and theater and *a master's degree* in special education from Queens College, City University of New York.[14]"


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## med8or (Jan 18, 2002)

I personally don't have a problem with this teacher either, but it begs a question. Where do we draw the line, as it was implied in some post that there was in fact a line.

With the assumption that this is all done on private time....what can and can't we live with and why have we drawn the line there? If these pictures were more revealing, would that change answers?

Just curious.


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## med8or (Jan 18, 2002)

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> Nobody gets a Masters Degree and decides to get into the porn industry; NO ONE!


I'd suspect there are a number of people with higher education who work in the porn industry and I'd suspect they're likely in it for the money and with the belief that they have still have options outside of the porn industry and perhaps significantly better options having an education compared to those without.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

*Can't buy it*



RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> I think it's a conflict of interest if she were doing so while teaching. Reason being, we are trying to keep young girls off the pole; if I had a daughter this would be top of my list; and in the grander scale out of the porn industry. Sure I love porn and love a good night at the strip joint, so yeah I'm a hypocrite but I have yet to meet someone in the porn industry with their head anywhere close to being on right.


People are always ready to take on teachers on the basis of do as I say is right, not do what I do. Teaching is a job. It is to be done on a professional level ... during working hours. The only excuse for meddling is if that teacher is doing something wrong in working hours.

This type of thing goes way back. My mother was an itinerant music teacher going from school to school in the late 1920's and 1930's. She got hauled before a local school board for driving through town on a Sunday afternoon in her own car smoking a cigarette. They wanted to see if she was morally fit to teach their children. The supreme irony in all this was that the chairman of the school board was also the owner of the local bordello.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

*Rotfl*



HowEver said:


> Why do I feel that I'm watching an episode of the Simpsons now?


I never quite thought of my mother in the light of Marg Simpson's sister .... But now that you say it, the only limit to second hand smoke in a car in those days was that you could still actually see out the window of the car.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

At least two of the women I knew as graduate students worked as strippers. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they, or others, were in pornographic movies as well.

Particularly for graduate students, any activity that generates significant revenue with minimal time requirements is likely going to be taken advantage of when it's an option. Grad students are usually living well below the poverty line, and they don't have much time for part-time work, so anything they do out of the lab has to pay well.

I also knew several grad students who grew and sold certain highly sought-after plant products to supplement their incomes.

At any rate, I can't imagine how this woman's business out side of school is any concern of anyone else. The fact that there are people who think posing in (or out of) a bikini is shocking or indicative of moral turpitude is pretty strong evidence that her critics are the ones in need of having their qualifications to be involved in the education system examined.

Cheers


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> her critics are the ones in need of having their qualifications to be involved in the education system examined.


:clap:


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

Sonal said:


> Er, beg to differ.
> 
> From Ron Jeremy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, emphasis mine.
> 
> "He earned bachelor's degrees in education and theater and *a master's degree* in special education from Queens College, City University of New York.[14]"


touche... should have read "women don"t... perhaps the dor could be open to one or two woman but I am skeptic. The mojority of women in the porn industry were at some point abused in at least one of it's various forms. It's differant for guys...no need to explain myself I wouldn't think on that one but am willing if it's not clear....


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## med8or (Jan 18, 2002)

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> The mojority of women in the porn industry were at some point abused in at least one of it's various forms.


Is this fact or opinion? If the former, please provide your sources.

Thanks.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Did she sign some sort of morality agreement as a condition of employment? If so...


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

What she does on her own time is nobody else's business......unless she is boinking one of her students.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

zenith said:


> What she does on her own time is nobody else's business......unless she is boinking one of her students.


I saw the pictures of her. In some quarters that would be called true education .... But not ... I think ... in North America


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

... somewhat based upon fact. I have worked in clubs and we saw alot of clientele that worked the pole. Emotionally destroyeed, many were single moms who had kids young, father gone, high school drop outs, some ran away from home. All nice people but a the emotional abuse was evident. I knwo some that are completley off their rocker too. Many do it to gain spotlight and attentio, and control over men to attempt to make up for the love they didn't get in youth. This is a false life and only begins a vicious circle.

I have also read an interview about a major porn star who was mistaken for being Jenna Jammeson. She said she went home and cried for 3 days.

Perhaps there could be a .01% chance there are some women in the biz with it all together but I am skeptic. Have you ever watched porn?

I know I sound like a hypocrite as I myself partake in the ballet from time to time but that is the dude in me...the Jimminy Cricket in me understands that in a world that was free of abuse and unloving homes and relationships, the porn industry would be limited to "love making" movies.

Let's take it one step further... is there a major difference between a hooker and a porn star? Not much, a cheezy script and a camera....


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> .I know I sound like a hypocrite as I myself partake in the ballet from time to time but that is the dude in me...


Man, that one line is killer. I have no idea what you think you are saying, but I'm willing to hear you explain your latest explanation. As it stands, there sure are a lot of tangents in your observations about porn and women... my head is spinning from trying to follow the logic.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

Max, by ballet I meant the 'rippers just so we're clear.

The hypocritcal I discuss is that I like going to the strippers or watching a good "movie" but if I had a daughter that ever thought for a second of entering the porn industry I would be moving the entire family to Siberia. 

I understand the negative situations that essentially drive women to enter the porn industry; and for the record I would rather they not have had to have endured the hardships that found them there. On the other hand...there is nothing finer than watching the beauty of the female form...


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## JAGflyer (Jan 10, 2005)

She's a teacher?! :love2: :love2:


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

RunTheWorldOnMac said:


> The hypocritcal I discuss is that I like going to the strippers or watching a good "movie" but if I had a daughter that ever thought for a second of entering the porn industry I would be moving the entire family to Siberia.


It's been well documented and well studied that the relationship with her father has a huge influence on a woman's future relationships with men and how she thinks of herself as a sexual being in relation to men. Girls begin to form their ideas about how to interact with men from how they interact with their fathers (it's their first relationship with a man) and from watching how their fathers interact with or discuss other women.

So if you really want to keep your future daughter "off the pole," I'd worry less about what her teacher is doing in her spare time, and a lot more about what you are doing.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Legally, she's done nothing wrong, so you can't get her there. Morally, it depends on how you personally define "moral." As for me, I have no objections, but there may be a case for dismissal, as she has compromised herself. She will no doubt experience a loss of respect from the students, and it's questionable how well she can do her job.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Sonal said:


> It's been well documented and well studied that the relationship with her father has a huge influence on a woman's future relationships with men and how she thinks of herself as a sexual being in relation to men. Girls begin to form their ideas about how to interact with men from how they interact with their fathers (it's their first relationship with a man) and from watching how their fathers interact with or discuss other women.
> 
> So if you really want to keep your future daughter "off the pole," I'd worry less about what her teacher is doing in her spare time, and a lot more about what you are doing.


Boom! Wow, that was a major bomb going off. :yikes: 

I can't even think of how my relationship with my daughter would impact her future relationships.

Now what the hell am I supposed to do? :yikes:


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

She was just making money. The modeling did not interfere with her work, so as they figured out, she did nothing wrong. Perhaps if they had anti-goldbricking rules, then she'd be wrong - but they didn't, so it is just fine.

I'd rather have her as a teacher than the ugly stupid hags we had at the dump that was my High School. At least I'd be motivated to show up, and perhaps, if I was really lucky, I'd score!!!


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks for the better summarization Sonal. You are exactly right! It is the emotional and sadly sexual abuse that many of these women suffer that drive them. They may not have felt any love from their fathers and attempt to gain a false love by having many men tripping over themselves to get to them. Many of them may also feel that they are worth nothing and again move themselves into the spotlight in a negative aspect to gain worth; albeit false. Other cases may see a daughter who watched a mother absolutley powerless and unable to think or do as she pleased. Being on that pole or whatnot gives them the false feeling that they are in control, they they have a sense of power over all those men.

It's sad and unfortunately it happens all to often...I am glad I watch the Cosby Show so religiously. People may joke about it but, Bill has parenting down quite nicely. Sure, it's a show and may portray that parenting is super easy, but his messages are clear.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

If we as humans were able to compartmentalize perfectly, I would agree that separation in our multiple professional lives should be total and complete. 
However, as evinced by the amount of interest in this matter, it's certainly not so for most people  porn stars and higher education not withstanding.
Given that, expect public moral outrage in a setting where parents entrust their children to your care where (be it unsaid) there are expectations of propreity and decorum. 

Fair or not, its not surprising.

Do I personally care - No.
Am I surprised that the average American parent cares - No.
Should the teacher in question be surprised by the reaction - in my cynical opinion, No.
Should she be fired - No.
Will she be forced to cease and desist or quit - possibly.
Would I stand up and fight for her rights - unlikely.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MasterBlaster said:


> Why is it when women want lots of sexual attention or partners it is considered that there are emotional or psychological problems, or is negative?
> 
> Then when men have lots of of sexual partners it is considered cool, macho, healthy etc. its considered positive?


It's called a double-standard. 

Seriously, sometimes seeking out many partners comes out of emotionally healthy desire. Sometimes it doesn't. That holds true for both men and women.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

It seems many responders are unwilling to read.
FOR THE RECORD, SHE POSED FOR THE PHOTOS IN COLLEGE! NOT WHILE SHE WAS TEACHING!!!
I REPEAT THE PHOTOS WERE TAKEN BEFORE SHE WAS A TEACHER!!!

There is no reason for her to desist she hasn't posed like this since she was in college!!!


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

martman said:


> It seems many responders are unwilling to read.
> FOR THE RECORD, SHE POSED FOR THE PHOTOS IN COLLEGE! NOT WHILE SHE WAS TEACHING!!!
> I REPEAT THE PHOTOS WERE TAKEN BEFORE SHE WAS A TEACHER!!!
> 
> There is no reason for her to desist she hasn't posed like this since she was in college!!!


Somebody needs to chill with Buddah and find his happy place. Ommm.....


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

LOL

I concur.

[draws hood back over head, falls back into the still grace of silence anew]


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## Deep Blue (Sep 16, 2005)

Just thought I'd cool this thread down a bit....

(Apologies if you've already seen them)...

ps. My girlfriend's the one in the middle.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

MasterBlaster said:


> Why is it when women want lots of sexual attention or partners it is considered that there are emotional or psychological problems, or is negative?
> 
> Then when men have lots of of sexual partners it is considered cool, macho, healthy etc. its considered positive?


This is easy to understand from an evolutionary biology perspective. For most animals, females are required to invest much more in reproduction (both metabolically and in terms of opportunity costs) than males. So, for females, the best strategy is to be choosy about mate selection.

Typically, males invest very little in reproduction, so the optimal strategy is to maximize reproductive opportunities.

Understanding evolution helps us be alert for these little traps our behavioural programming lays for us. 

Cheers


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

MasterBlaster...good question. I think that is really a more answer or so it would be made to seem...I really wouldn't know how to answer that. I would not neccessarly consider a guy a stud; more a dirty player. I suppose it's that a guy is always ready to go; perhaps due to the difference in testosterone levels, general views on sex vs love...but, we can look at the emotional side as well. Perhaps they don't respect woman fully and pray on the vulnerabilites of a woman. I was never big on one-night stands myself. A woman (in many cases) may feel a connection and thus give into desire (is it safe to say many cases drinking is involved?) and sleep with someone early in the relationship or after just meeting. Looking a woman in the eyes and asking her if she needs me to call a cab is just something that seems morally wrong. (And yes, sometimes men / woman just need some; it can also be heathly, we are beings of sexuality.) 

Another view could be that it is essentially up to the woman whether or not sex will occur. A guy, in most cases is always willing to sleep with someone and needs less coaxing to have sex with someone new then a woman. 

Sonal is right too, it is a double standard.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

MasterBlaster said:


> Promiscuous women are viewed as having something wrong with them. Not so with men.
> 
> This seems wrong to me.


Obviously it's a double standard, and I agree that it's not fair. But evolution isn't about 'fair' ... it's about reproductive success. Four and a half billion years of evolution has fine-tuned the behavior, physiology and morphology of every organism on earth to optimize their reproductive fitness within the ecological constraints in which they live. For our ancestors, that fine-tuning involved behavior that we now view as unacceptable, and we struggle, with greater or lesser degrees of success to control it.

I find it helpful to understand the biological basis of our behavioral instincts, so that one doesn't need to feel ashamed of one's desires or reflexive behaviors. And, if you decide that you 'ought' to behave in a certain way, despite your evolutionary programming, you can take some personal satisfaction in your success, knowing that your personal self discipline is sufficiently powerful to control such deeply ingrained neurophysiology.

Cheers


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

bryanc said:


> I find it helpful to understand the biological basis of our behavioral instincts, so that one doesn't need to feel ashamed of one's desires or reflexive behaviors. And, if you decide that you 'ought' to behave in a certain way, despite your evolutionary programming, you can take some personal satisfaction in your success, knowing that your personal self discipline is sufficiently powerful to control such deeply ingrained neurophysiology.


I'd been avoiding looking at this thread because it appeared to be about nonsense, (edit: as the photos above show) but this morning I spied your name as the last comment and I thought "What does bryanc have to say about hot teacher babes?"  I didn't realize that the thread had gotten so "intelmellectual".

I'm glad you added that paragraph. I'm usually quite suspicious about the ingrained biological instinct excuses for our behaviour. Not that we don't possibly have many of these buried and often unconscious instincts. It's probably true that we do.

What I find is that many will use the assertion that a particular behaviour is evolutionary programming and therefore nothing can be done. It's just the way it is. It's like their "get out of jail free" card. Many sexist men will use this type of reasoning as an excuse for their continued neanderthalism. 

I've always felt that we have the capacity to override unconscious impulses if we choose to make them conscious. Simply because I might feel the impulse to kill someone who makes me angry doesn't mean I have to submit to it. We have powerful brains that can easily overcome ingrained behaviour if we so choose. We have the capacity to be fair, just, democratic and compassionate, even though nature is largely unfair, unjust, non-democratic and uncaring. Occasionally even animals have shown some of this capacity.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> We have powerful brains that can easily overcome ingrained behaviour if we so choose. We have the capacity to be fair, just, democratic and compassionate, even though nature is largely unfair, unjust, non-democratic and uncaring. Occasionally even animals have shown some of this capacity.


But what drives that capacity to be fair, just and compassionate? Where do these 'morals' come from? 

I would suggest they do actually come from our ingrained behaviours. These 'group moral' values are consistent across all cultures throughout history. 

Humans have a very strong desire to be part of the group. It's the reason you are wearing jeans today and not a cloak or hijab.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

"What's your stance on this situation: High School Teacher = Bikini Model?"



i stand erected, 
teach me something i don't know!


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

I have to say that I am not surprised that I know of only 3 women on this board. One of which is an in-law and another through an extended community.

Well done guys, glad you all showed up and put your best foot forward in front of the ladies. :clap:


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Vandave said:


> But what drives that capacity to be fair, just and compassionate? Where do these 'morals' come from?
> 
> I would suggest they do actually come from our ingrained behaviours. These 'group moral' values are consistent across all cultures throughout history.
> 
> Humans have a very strong desire to be part of the group. It's the reason you are wearing jeans today and not a cloak or hijab.


I can't really say where these morals come from Dave, it would only be speculation on my part anyway. I'm sure a whole philosophical debate could be launched here. There may be something to what you say.

When I look at myself I think my desire for these things comes from my own compassion for other people and my ability to imagine myself in another person's shoes. This is the root I think of why these unnatural things like fairness and democracy are important to me. I think that many of the social darwinist survival-of-the-fittest types also use the "we are programmed that way, nothing we can do" excuse too.


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