# So many more Macs....



## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Is it me or are there more and more people using Mac's? Has anyone done a "recent" study?

I find that lately I am hearing more and more aqauntances of mine have Macs or are getting Macs. I've also noticed more and more people in Airports using Macs.

This may just be an anectdotal obeservation on my part but it sure does look like more and more people are using Macs...

At New Years this year we had about 25 people over and at least half of them use Macs... maybe I am just hanging with the cool crowd.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Not really...remember, birds of a feather flock together. IDC has just reported that Apple's market share of new machines is dropping...about 3 percent now. You're probably hanging out with an ever-shrinking crowd of cool people.


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## Mantat (Aug 22, 2003)

Nah..

When you see stats, they are about marketshare of sold product during the period. Not of used product. 

Basicaly, if Apple sells 2x more macs but the increase in sales of pcs is 2.1x, they will say that the mac market share is shrinking while in fact the number of users doubled. 

So you may see more mac users, but the % in the overall population is smaller. But who cares? a lot of the pc sales (when talking about the low end) is to people who wouldnt buy a mac anyway...

Its all about stats and what you want them to say...


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## skaimauve (Jan 4, 2004)

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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Obviously, you're just hanging out with the right crowd!







Or you've been a really good influence on your friends.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Market share numbers are misleading because they often factor in every computer sold for every purpose including POS terminals, servers, etc.

It's like saying BMW has only 2% of the market share, but instead of comparing them to cars your are comparing them to everything with 4 wheels and an engine including tractors, go karts and ride on lawn mowers.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Macs last 5 years? That's an old figure that I think is highly unreliable. If we were to take that seriously then I'd be running an Power Macintosh Blue and White. How many of us have such an old system here? I'm not a power user but since 1996 I have purchased a PowerCenter, a PowerTower Pro and a G4 for an average of about 2.4 years. 

You can play around with your exercise all you want but it's simply a model that's only as good as what you input.

As for your other "facts", here are some rebuttals:

A. Not all PC users are gamers, the vast majority (what? 90%?) are your usual office user and surfer. My two brothers, who are "gamers" in that they have tons of games, have systems that have lasted over three years. Gamers don't junk their entire system but upgrade it piecemeal. What does this mean? It means that the two year figure goes out the window.
B. With your virus and corruption numbers, you're basically saying that about 45 percent of Windows users will get a new machine every year? Come on, that's sheer nonsense. I don't know where you get your numbers from but anyone with real difficulty would simply wipe out the HD and start over.
C. If a power supply or fan failed, would someone simply change the whole machine or pay about $50 for a new PS or $10 for a CPU fan? Again, the idea that people will buy a new machine simply because of these items failed is ludicrous. My g/f has an old Pentium (the original) whose fan died, she simply replaced the fan, NOT the whole machine.

Any argument that's built on a foundation of sand like the above...well, you get the picture.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Ahhh...gotta love it when someone brings up the old BMW argument...I think BMW now has about 4 percent of the automobile market in the USA. What makes them different from Apple is that their market share is GROWING.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*gotta love it when someone brings up the old BMW argument*

I didn't though. I only used BMW because it was the first brand to spring to mind.

The point was that if someone were to work out how many Macs were sold in a given quarter and compare that to PCs sold _to the same markets_ I'm guessing that Apple would have a much larger piece of the pie.

As it is comparing Mac sales to everything else, including markets where Apple has no desire to compete, is misleading.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

You're right, you didn't bring up an argument about BMW but you did bring up another argument that I've heard mentioned several times. Basically, what you're saying is that you should compare the number of computers sold by how they are being used. Hrmm...I don't know if that is a valid argument or not because if a Mac was being used as a POS does that mean we count PC POS sales along with Mac sales? If I find a Mac being used as a server should I include every PC being used as a server? It's only fair right?


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

I would like to see a study done on the population of people who've changed systems in the last 5 years. I know literally dozens of people who've switched from PCs to Macs, but none who've switiched the other way.

In contrast...a decade ago I knew many people who got tired of fighting such an uphill battle, and switched from Macs to wintel boxes.

Is this just my subjective impression, or are many more people switching to Macs these days?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*I don't know if that is a valid argument or not because if a Mac was being used as a POS does that mean we count PC POS sales along with Mac sales? *

That's the point though, when IDG and other companies are saying "Apple has 3% market share" they are counting every computer sold to every market. Apple doesn't sell POS terminals (such as those IBM does) and yet they are being counted into the market share.

It's like comparing a car company's market share to the total market, except instead of the total _car_ market you are comparing them to the total _automobile_ market, which includes bulldozers, 18 Wheel trucks, motorcycles, lawnmowers, tractors, go-karts, etc.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

> Macs last 5 years? That's an old figure that I think is highly unreliable. If we were to take that seriously then I'd be running an Power Macintosh Blue and White. How many of us have such an old system here? I'm not a power user but since 1996 I have purchased a PowerCenter, a PowerTower Pro and a G4 for an average of about 2.4 years.


You might not have a Power Macintosh B&W, but the person who you sold it to does. Macintosh computers seem to keep on running alot longer than PCs. I just gave away my 7-8 year old PowerWave 604/132 that I was using as a scanning station. The guy I gave it to is going to give it to his son to use.

I, like you, tend to stay with Macs that are less than 3 years old (with the exception of my PowerWave 604/132), but there are alot of people who buy used Macs. 

My Pismo is starting it's 5th year... I've been meaning to replace it with a newer G4 laptop of some sort, but it still does what I need it to do.


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## skaimauve (Jan 4, 2004)

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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Ok, guess I will have to take this poster by poster before making dinner...hehee..


PosterBoy, ok, let's clear up something here, IDC counts PC sales as desktop, notebook, ultraportable and server systems. That basically covers most of what Apple ships so we can drop the POS idea. IDC is comparing apples to apples in other words.

Here's the link:

http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2004/01/15/idc/index.php?redirect=1076080818000


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Kosh...uhh...I still have my Powercenter and PowerTower right here. They were not sold out of this household. Sorry.

Next!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

skaimauve,

A. The idea that businesses hold their PCs for three years or less may not hold up over the last couple of years given how poor the American economy has been. This is one reason that 2001-2003 were such bad years for most computer manufacturers. It's only this year that we are seeing an uptick in PC sales. I believe that the predicted growth for this year is about 3-4 percent. Gartner's data, I suspect, is old.
B. MS does not give away the OEM license to manufacturers. That's flat-out wrong. The highest cost of a PC today is that same license!
C. The corruption numbers are believable. What's not believable is that people will switch out a computer simply because of a bad HD or power supply.

I don't discount that businesses have an impact on PC sales but I am positive that the length of the typical PC's life in businesses has gone beyond the three year span.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Right, here's a link from 2002 which is indicative of how there was a slowdown:

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-965972.html

All through 2002 this was what we were hearing. Actually, I predicted in early 2003 that PC sales would increase later in that year.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Posterboy, given that IDC in January of 2004 specifically states what they counted and that Gruber's article is talking about statistics (he even says "as currently conceived") coming from early 2003, I don't think that argument is valid any longer.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

IronMac,

Gruber puts the situation into better perspective than I did.

<blockquote>http://daringfireball.net/2003/07/market_share

Overall PC market share covers large market segments where Apple isn’t competing — including markets where Apple doesn’t want to compete. Fifteen or 20 years ago, personal computers were generally only purchased and used by people who were “into” computers. Today, however, many computers are purchased for use as generic business machines, modern-day typewriters and adding machines.

PCs are used everywhere from telemarketing cubicle farms to supermarket checkout registers. The much ballyhooed “network computer” platform never emerged the way companies like Sun and Oracle had hoped (meaning “no Microsoft”), but very cheap PCs are frequently used as little more than network terminals. And Apple simply doesn’t make machines that would be good choices for extremely low-end tasks.

The analyst Baker is on the right track with his “Acura sports cars vs. Taurus station wagons” analogy, but it isn’t quite right. The idea of overall PC market share, as currently conceived by IDC, is not so much like overall automobile market share as it is like overall motor vehicle market share. It’s like counting everything from golf carts to tractor trailers as a single category, thus making the “overall market share” look worse than it is for a company that only makes actual passenger cars.
</blockquote>


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

I think it is because a) IDC is still counting things the same way and b) he's not just talking about different specific uses, but also different demographics (for example, Apple does not sell low end machines).


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

But, if you read what IDC says, about what they count now then you will see that Gruber's argument is no longer valid because he's talking about their past methodology. ie. they are now (2003 base year) comparing apples to apples. 

And demographics is a totally different story...he's talking about low-end tasks versus what you're talking about which is low-end machines. That is not the point. In the end, I don't think any twisting around of definitions and arguments is going to get around the fact that Apple's market share of personal computers has gone down from a high of 16 percent to 3-4 percent.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

I'm not saying it hasn't decreased, I'm saying that if you line up Macs with comparable machines/markets, I'd be willing to bet it hasn't decreased as much as a lot of people think.

Basically, if you cut out the low end (Here's looking at you 200$ Wal Mart boxes) an area where Apple doesn't (and doesn't want to) compete, I bet the numbers go up quite a bit. And there are other areas that IDG counts that Apple has no interest in pursuing too.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Wait a sec...so, we should only count those boxes that are sold at $1099 to $4099 (Apple's pricing not including monitor in some cases? That's not a level playing field at all then! What about all those desktop Dells being sold at $899? There's a term for this sort of argument but it escapes me for the moment.

I mean, we can easily break down the market into discrete segments...printing...publishing...etc. but that won't hold given the long-term market trend. For example, a few years back we could have said that Apple was number one in educational sales...now, it's probably second at best.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*Wait a sec...so, we should only count those boxes that are sold at $1099 to $4099 (Apple's pricing not including monitor in some cases? That's not a level playing field at all then! What about all those desktop Dells being sold at $899?*

Apple sells the eMac for 799$ USD, and it fits squarely into the "mid range" segment of the market. 

Wal Mart sells 200$ machines that are good for browsing the web and checking email, they don't even run Windows[1] and fit quite nicely into the "low end" segment of the market.

What I'm saying is that the segment of the market that will buy those 200$ Wal Mart boxes is not a segment of the market that Apple pursues (or is interested in pursuing), so when they are counted into the total market share I don't believe it to be entirely accurate (for lack of a better word).

[1] Not necesarily a bad thing.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

The Lindows machines at Wal-Mart are still personal computers; they are still used for websurfing, word processing, email, etc. Basically about 90 percent of what people use computers for. It's also what the majority of people who buy Macs use their machines for too.

Just because Apple does not want to play in the low-end category (which is disputable given that eMacs are what I would consider low-end, iMacs are mid-range and G5s are high-end) does not mean that they should not be counted as being part of the personal computer market in that particular segment. As I pointed out before, slicing and dicing the personal computer market into chunks where one can say "Apple is no. 1 here" does not disguise the fact that Apple's lost in almost all of the other chunks.


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## rhino (Jul 10, 2002)

Here at a major medical facility, more docs and residents are "switching" to the Mac, especially to laptops. PowerBooks from 400Mhz Lombards through the various TiBooks and the new AlBooks are being used, noticed and discussed. From there it's a personal buying decision but the major reason is the "ease of use', like the "Look" meaning the OS interface especially OSX. 

The "cool" factor of an 15 or 17inch AlBook definitely makes a difference.


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## skaimauve (Jan 4, 2004)

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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Skaimauve:

A. I don't think I recall seeing IDC claiming a 4-year cycle, only that the cycle has increased. There have been other articles other than the one that I cited where they have talked about a slowdown in computer sales to businesses and I'm pretty sure that the SEC documents from Dell and other manufacturers would note that there has been a slowdown.

B. If businesses are holding off on upgrading because Longhorn has been delayed then that only reinforces the idea that PC upgrades have slowed down.

C. The cost to OEMs is much higher now than $25 or $50. It's about US$50:
http://barque.freeyellow.com/collossusOC.html
This hardly qualifies as "almost" giving Windows away.

D. Resellers charge $300 to rebuild a system? That's ridiculous. These days, there's nothing simpler than simply reformatting the HD and reload. As for throwing a Mac, no way, I have yet to hear of anyone throwing out a Mac before going to a repair shop first. People simply can't afford to keep buying new Macs all the time. They're simply too expensive.

In any case, I don't deny that business PC sales help to inflate the number of PCs out there but such sales do not disguise the fact that Mac market shares is on a steady decline.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*The Lindows machines at Wal-Mart are still personal computers; they are still used for websurfing, word processing, email, etc. Basically about 90 percent of what people use computers for. It's also what the majority of people who buy Macs use their machines for too.*

I never said they weren't personal computers, I said that they are part of a market that Apple doesn't pursue.

People use their Macs for email and websurfing and so on, but I'd argue that most people who are buying Macs (especially first time buyers these days) are buying Macs because they can do cool things like edit video or audio.

*which is disputable given that eMacs are what I would consider low-end*

I'd say that the eMac is a mid range model. I don't see many low end machines with a DVD-R drive. I guess we look at things differently.

*slicing and dicing the personal computer market into chunks where one can say "Apple is no. 1 here" does not disguise the fact that Apple's lost in almost all of the other chunks.*

I'm not saying that Apple's overall market share isn't low, but I am saying that if you look at the areas that Apple actually pursues I bet it isn't so bad. 

Apple's lost a lot of market share over the years, but I don't think Apple really needs to worry about the slight dip this quarter.

Perhaps, for now, let's agree to disagree?


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## skaimauve (Jan 4, 2004)

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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

I think to go back to the original post, a simple question was asked. Are we seeing more macs... I feel the same as the original poster. Yes!! I have seen more macs being used to give presentations in the last year then I can remember in the last 5 years combined. Here in saudi arabia like most of the world, it is M$ by a long shot, but if you talk to the mac resellers here, they will tell you that they are seeing increased sales accross the board. I read an article on macworld UK a while back that showed apple laptop market share was up significantly. You can read all you want into IDC, but that is all you will be doing. Reading into a best guess analysis of what is market share. If an office that uses 100 pc's upgrades to new machines this year, has M$ increased market share. No! The same number of people in that office are still using the same number of computers. There is no actuall increase in market share there, but it will show up as one in IDC's report, because they are talking quarterly sales numbers. And what about the people that did not upgrade thier computer but simply replaced Windows with some flavor of UNIX. If I had my guess, I would say that it is probably M$ numbers that are slightly over inflated. Ironman, how can Apple sell 7 to 800,000 units quarter on quarter and have thier actual market share droping year on year. You mean to tell me that the same 800,000 people keep buying new machines every quarter? At that rate, the mac should have been extinct a few years ago. There is no question in my mind that since the new mac OS and recent hardware upgrades, the mac is showing up in new places. Even M$ issued a news flash a few weeks ago that they are predicting an increase in sales at thier macBU with increased intrest in the mac market. I think you are overguesstimating what you are reading in the IDC reports. There is no doutb that the mac market is tiny when compared to M$, but that is not to say that things wont or cant change. Remember, up until a few years ago, M$ had a death grip on the overall IT industry. Since that grip has been loosened some, things seem to be changing slowly not just in the personal computer space but other technologies as well. You wont see a 60 billion dollar monster fade into nothing over night. What IDC tells me is that a large number of people are still buying windows machines. Some will be first time buyers, but a large percentage will be upgrades from previous sales.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

PosterBoy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because if we don't agree on what is a personal computer or what Apple's market focus is on then we're really not comparing apples to apples.

skaimauve:
A. It does look like the upgrade cycle is increasing for PCs, especially if we take into account your early '90s 18-month upgrade cycle which is now at least 36 months.
B. The article says that system prices are heading down to US$500...and that people are worried that the OEM license will eventually be up to 10% of that...so, you get US$50. Again, that's hardly giving it away.

mac java:

A. When you say that I can read all I want into an IDC report, aren't you reading all you want into a MacWorld article? Where do you think they all get their numbers from? That's right, the SEC documents that American public companies are required to file each quarter. We can do something relatively simple if a bit time consuming. We can go to the SEC website and look up the financial documents of let's say IBM, Dell, HP, Compaq and Apple over the last five years. Take out their unit sales or revenues and we can do our own approximation of market share for each year. Are you or anyone else game?

B. As for macBU, are they saying that they expect an increase in sales (defined as what? revenues or units?) because they believe that more Macs will be sold or because they are coming out with new products such as Office? A link would be helpful in clarifying this.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac.
Again I dont think you are getting my point very clearly. The macworld article was not mentioned as a source to discredit IDC's report. Simply a contrast to what you are saying. The macworld article by the way was quoting numbers from IDC if I remember correctly. It was only concerned with the portable market and showed that apple had an increase in what they call market share for that geographical area (Great Briton?) for that period. On your second point, what would it prove to look at investor/company performance over the last 5 years. That would have absolutely nothing to do with market share and more to do with profit margins/R&D... You dont have to be a rocket scientist or be able to read a spreadsheet to figure out that the numbers are going to be very good for Dell, Hp and IBM and not so good for Apple. I think this is what your IDC reports are telling you, yes indeed a lot of people are still buying windows based systems. The question was, are we seeing more macs. My answer is Yes!! Does IDC reports mean market share. No, not in and of themselves. It can tell you what sort of quarter Dell is having compared to the competition, but does not directly mean market share. In order for you to take the IDC report and attach market share values to it, you would have to include percentage points for new sales, resales and what that resale represents in terms of from what to what. ie. from apple to Dell, from Dell to Hp ect... You would be hard pressed to make me believe that with all the interest in Unix over that last 24 months from both Gov/private and personal users, (which by the way now includes Apple as they are a FreeBSD unix OS) that there has not been a change in true market share percentage between windows and IBM/Apple unix. I dont care what IDC reports. I think one of the problems is that people are anxious and often over react when they dont see instant gratification. There is no doubt in my mind that windows wont be going anywhere soon. It is the dominant force in the IT industry and will likely remain so for some time. What is also clear in my mine is that things are changing and have been since M$ had thier leash pulled by the DOJ. M$ can no longer use the sledgehammer policy with technology that poses a threat. The watch dogs are keeping a closer eye out on this sort of thing. It is interesting to note that unix has been around for more than 40 years. Ask yourself why all of the sudden is there so much interest in the unix os if it has been around all this time. My answer, M$ is loosing its grip! There is a good article that I read from one of the ehmac members sites. The member goes by the name macamontreal or something like that. A new IT support company in the montreal area. Go to his website and find the link for an article titled The IT industry is shifting away from M$. I found it to be a very interesting read.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Hrmmm...Mac Java, once again we're on the slippery slope of how to define the market. First of all, the only people using Unix on the desktop (aside from Macs) are those who are network admins and developers. This is a very very small number of end-users. I'm not talking about big server networks.
Second, if the computing market (personal computers) is growing and we're talking new users here and the majority of those are buying new Windows PCs then Apple's market share of the entire total will, naturally enough, be shrinking.
Over 150 million Windows PCs were sold last year and not all of them are to upgraders. It's true enough that we don't know exactly who they are going to but on the reverse side of the coin you can't say that all of the Macs are being sold to new users either.

Here's a link to 2003 computer sales:

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,114335,00.asp

C. As for the so-called increasing interest in Unix, ComputerWorld did a survey last July on the future of Unix. Fully 37% of respondents say (to some extent) that Unix will play a smaller role in their enterprise or shrink or disappear.

http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/story/0,,82765,00.html

Maybe OS X will play a role in reversing this trend but I doubt it. You will need to port applications over to OS X and this may not be a simple task.

P.S. Looked at the macmontreal website and there is no article there...simply a one line statement that the IT trend is moving away from Microsoft.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac.

The web is largly served up on unix servers. Unix is very heavily entrenched in industry of all scales. This includes verticle markets for industrial applications to open source projects that serve entire communities. From Nasa to Midas Muffler. You will find Unix. That would be the understatement of the year to call this group of users small. Unix has been around for some time as I have already mentioned. The thing that is changing is that many flavours of unix are now coming into reach of the home user with a more user friendly GUI. This is being spured to fruition as M$ has lost its monopolistic control of the IT industry. If unix was going to disapear as you put it, I think that trend would have already showed up. Infact the exact oposite is happening. Unix is becoming more mainstream in the home. You no longer need to be a comand line junkie to run something as stable as unix. imagine, you dont need to run M$ office to get work done. This is a big thorn in M$ side right now. If it was not, then why are they giving office and xp to the Thai Gov for $36.00 (basically free compared to what they were asking less than a year ago.) Because they cant afford more defections. German Gov, Chinese Gov...

Anyway, you are still lost in the woods because the original question was are we seeing more macs. My answer is yes! The numbers might be very small if compared to the visability of windows machines, but still 2 today is more than the 1 you had yesterday. I think only time will really tell. M$ was able to mass a huge fortune in the 20 years they were allowed to go unchecked. To shift a market with that kind of weight will not be easy and it will not happen over night. You can not measure this thing over the sales of units from a couple fiscal terms. At best, you can pick up on what dirrection a trend might be going. Who knows, maybe M$ will be able to buy enough time to pull a real OS out of the hat.
If you cant find the link on the montreal site, maybe the link is dead(M$ has been knowen to move in dark places)

Try this, I dont now if it will work for you?

www.theinquirer.net/?article=13350


Also if you would like to read how apple has a 40% increase in laptop sales and a slight increase in market share according to a recent report from IDC. Go to www.macsurfer.com and go to yesterdays page or Tuesday, Feb 10th. there you will find a couple articles talking about the same thing.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac.

If you go to the same page of www.macsurfer.com you wil find several articles siting the rise of unix over windows in both europe and asia. go to the page for tuesday Feb 10. This type of news is becomming more and more common. One might even call it a trend.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Posterboy: If I were out buying a personal computer today...and my tasks were relatively simple...email, word processing, websurfing and my budget was less than $1000 Canadian...am I looking for a personal computer or am I a low-end computer user? Would I be equally well-served by a Mac or Windows machine? Answer is, yes.

Mac Java: 

A. Reading over your post, the first paragraph can only give me the conclusion that you either did not read my first paragraph carefully enough or you don't know what Unix is.
I said that the number of people using Unix on the desktop (aside from Macs) is very very small. Not that Unix as an OS for server environments is going to disappear. The survey respondents, on the other hand, say that it will play at least a smaller role in their environments.

B. There are no new flavors of Unix coming out to the home user. I think you are confusing Unix with Linux. Unix, the flavors that I can list off the top of my head are IBM's AIX and Sun's version - SRV?
The Linux flavors on the other hand are Red Hat, Suse, Mandrake, Slackware, etc. with Gnome and KDE as the GUIs. My g/f has all of these flavors and more lying around on CDs or DVDs from those British Linux magazines she buys all the time. I believe she runs Debian...or some other flavor that someone else who's a Linux newbie calls "hardcore".
The two are very similar but they are not the same.

C. The German gov (I believe it was only one city with about 10k workstations) went with Linux, not Unix. I can't remember the Chinese details but I'm pretty sure it's not Unix.

D. If you're talking about the Red Herring article on MacSurfer, it's talking about Linux and NOT Unix. If you like that sort of trend and we were to take it further then the desktop world will eventually be Linux...not Unix (and that includes OS X).

As for whether or not we are seeing more Macs? Let me tell you a story...years ago, when I got my first (and only) car, I was naturally pretty excited about it..so much so that I started to see it everywhere. I mean, in movies such as "Independence Day", "You Got Mail", and "Mission Impossible", Mac users saw that all the characters were using Macs. Did PC users care? No.
I put it to you, we only see what we want to see and what we care about.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*we don't agree on what is a personal computer or what Apple's market focus is on then we're really not comparing apples to apples.*

We agree what a personal computer is, just not what Apple's market focus is.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

Oh man I hate it when people say "Unix" and "Linux" as if there was something inherently different between Linux and the other flavours of Unix  
Linux is simply a flavour of Unix, plain and simple.
Don't start with platform argument.
Solaris runs on Intel and SPARC, BSD runs on Intel and PowerPC,
Linux runs on Intel, SPARC, PowerPC, and zillions more.... 

You *are* allowed to say "Linux and *other* types of Unix". 
OK thats a little harder to say, but do it for me  

Now that I've got that off my chest ...









The German City is Munich, and they are going to be running 14,000 SuSE Linux desktops. The Chinese deal is with SUN, to run their version of Linux --or-- their Java Desktop (?)
on 1,000,000 desktops. Yeah Baby! (need an Austin Powers Graemlin)


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*If I were out buying a personal computer today...and my tasks were relatively simple...email, word processing, websurfing and my budget was less than $1000 Canadian...am I looking for a personal computer or am I a low-end computer user? *

You are a low end user looking for a basic personal computer to check your email and write on, where is it that you are getting that I don't know what a personal computer is?

*Would I be equally well-served by a Mac or Windows machine? Answer is, yes.*

You would be equally served by either a Mac or a Windows machine but if your budget is only $1000 and all you want the machine to be is essentially a modern typewriter the sad truth is you probably wont consider even an eMac, which starts at 1100$ CDN and you'd still need to buy a printer, etc.

However, if you were looking to start getting into digital photography, video, music, etc you'd probably be more inclined to go over budget and get the eMac because sub-$1000 windows boxes don't come with a lot of what you need to get started in any one of those areas, let alone all of them.

The latter description is Apple's market focus, and in that area they are doing pretty well. At the moment though, there are still more machines going out the door to be typewriters than anything else.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Script Kiddie:

Linux is a clone of Unix...it is not a flavor or variant of Unix in that they are one and the same. Unix variants are HP-UX, AIX, FreeBSD and so on...Linux variants, well, I've already listed them. Of course, you're going to ask what are the inherent differences?
1. Linux is freely available while Unix is owned and sold by various companies.
2. Linux can be changed at will so long as you have the source code and proficiency to do so. With Unix, well, I'd like to see you ask Apple for the source code, not sure if they would give it to you.
3. Along those lines, I believe the source code is also different between the two.

Posterboy: I'm sorry if I offended you by implying that you don't know what a personal computer is. Tell me something, I look at Windows XP Home and it says that it can handle:

- create videos to be shared
- download, record and share photos
- download, store and play music
- etc.

It sounds a lot like a Mac doesn't it? So, does not a cheapo Windows XP Home machine play in the same area as Mac OS X? Would you not say that Microsoft is focusing on some of the same areas that Apple does?

Does this mean that we're going to say that simply because Apple has Garageband and Microsoft doesnt that means that Apple is in a totally different market segment? Or do we simply count Garageband users and say that Apple's number one in that area?


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## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

For sub-$1000 budget, a used machine is best. I recommend a used iMac with .Mac for the best experience.
For the cheapest solution, buy a white-box PC and install Linux and OpenOffice.org on it, but be careful what printer you buy. Then save your pennies for a used G5 in a year or two. Don't plan on being able to sell that PC when you are done with it. But you can donate it.
As far as market share goes, I think it's important as a way to get applications written for the platform. Of course there are other ways to accomplish that - witness the Microsoft Mac Business Unit, and Blizzard games. But I hope Apple's focus will be on keeping their existing customers happy.
Probably one of the best ways to grow Apple's marketshare is communities like ours right here.
People have been talking about UNIX vs. Linux. Linux and Mac OS X are treading on thin ice if they advertise themselves as UNIX, but yes in many ways UNIX is what they are. A lot of the things we love about Mac exist in large part thanks to the UNIX foundation - fast user switching, the web server, Safari, the Home Folder and therefore FileVault, etcetera. Both Linux and Mac OS X follow many of the same standards and this is a great thing for the health of the platform.


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## elmer (Dec 19, 2002)

Let me correct some things here.
1. FreeBSD which you listed is also freely available. Linux is also sold by various companies. Apple gives away the open source components of Mac OS X for free. They also give away iTunes for free - you don't even have to run their operating system.
2. A large portion of Mac OS X, including drivers for all Apple's hardware, is open source.
3. A large portion of the open source code in Mac OS X is in common with Linux. For example, the Apache webserver, and the bash shell which governs the command line interface. In fact, most operating systems share a lot of BSD-based code in common with each other, mostly networking code.
4. Most applications that run on Linux also run on Mac OS X, using the same source code compiled in a different way.



> Linux is a clone of Unix...it is not a flavor or variant of Unix in that they are one and the same. Unix variants are HP-UX, AIX, FreeBSD and so on...Linux variants, well, I've already listed them. Of course, you're going to ask what are the inherent differences?
> 1. Linux is freely available while Unix is owned and sold by various companies.
> 2. Linux can be changed at will so long as you have the source code and proficiency to do so. With Unix, well, I'd like to see you ask Apple for the source code, not sure if they would give it to you.
> 3. Along those lines, I believe the source code is also different between the two.


Tell me, what percentage of XP Home users are satisfied with the experience of 


> - create videos to be shared
> - download, record and share photos
> - download, store and play music


on a sub-$1000 machine? Yes, Microsoft is making an attempt, but they are certainly behind in this area. Mac does it better.

[ February 11, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: elmer ]


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Iron mac.
First your solid on unix and linux not being the same thing and then you turn around and call one a clone of the other. So which is it? Flavor/clone, clone/flavor; that was kinda my feeling too.

Ironmac reads:
1. Linux is freely available while Unix is owned and sold by various companies.
2. Linux can be changed at will so long as you have the source code and proficiency to do so. With Unix, well, I'd like to see you ask Apple for the source code, not sure if they would give it to you.
3. Along those lines, I believe the source code is also different between the two.

I am glad you were able to show me just how different the 2 really are.

I wounder what survey is out there to tell us how many people are forced to use unix at work and then go home and use that completely different OS linux at home?

My point about the GUI was simply that over the years, the clone/flavors of the world have migrated to a more friendly user experience much like everything else I guess. 

Count the opensource projects that M$ is supporting at the moment, I am hoping you dont have to use too many fingers.

I noticed you had no comment on the inquirer article or the latest reports from IDC showing a rise in what they call market share for the mac. After all, that is what this post was all about.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

I just had to throw this in too! In addition to munchkin, you can also add this little Gov office.


The article reads:
The Linux deployment is part of an agreement Big Blue struck in 2002 with the German Federal Ministry of the Interior to supply computers with Linux at a discount to federal, state and local governments as well as other public authorities. 

The Federal Finance Office opted for the IBM mainframe system to simplify its IT environment, lower its costs and, in general, meet its growing computing needs more efficiently in the future, IBM spokesman Hans-Jürgen Rehm said. "The authority saw a need for centralization to create greater transparency and achieve better control," he said. 

The Federal Finance Office is the largest of five federal authorities under the control of the German Ministry of Finance. It manages, among other things, the payment of all public sector employees and the taxation of German citizens with taxable income abroad, as well as the country's largest enterprises. 

Its computer center, in particular, is responsible for operating the Internet and intranet applications of Germany's entire federal finance administration, providing service to more than 120,000 users

It is a rather small group of non significant users in what is probably one of the least important economic engines in europe. But hey leave the little guys out of this.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Ok, first off, before I get down to the posts after my earlier post, according to "Learning Unix for Mac OS X" I'm incorrect when I say that Linux is not a variant of Unix. In the preface, it says "other versions of Unix such as Linux."


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

elmer, your first post:

I think we can safely say that the foundations of both Linux and Mac OS X are somewhat based on Unix. The source code for one is based on FreeBSD while the other was built from the scratch up. We can probably leave it at that.

P.S. I almost built such a Linux box about a month ago. Even now, I am contemplating putting OpenOffice on my G4 here.

second post:

A. You're right about FreeBSD.

B. Linux is also freely available because of the GPL(?). I believe, because of that license, you can download any version of Linux out there.

C. Hang on...the Open Source parts from Apple that you're talking about (bear with me, I'm not familiar with GPL or Open Source) but I believe that Apple does not have the right to keep those components to themselves so they have to be freely available.

D. Some of the components you're talking about, such as Apache server, is simply bundled in with OS X. Virtually, anyone can download Apache server without having to buy an OS.

E. In referring to what XP can do, we're talking about market focus, not user experience.

mac java:

A. I still believe that you were mixing up Unix with Linux. I've met a couple of Unix gearheads and LOT of Linux users...man, different groups! The former seem to be mainly grizzled veterans who work at big corporations and the latter are a bunch of youngsters in comparison who fool around with the latest distros.

B. As for commentary about the Inquirer article or IDC, the former I have not had a chance to fully read and the latter only shows an increase of .02 percentage points in the UK. Which helps to make up for a decline the year BEFORE. Wow...should I point you to IDC's own website where they talk about a .2 percent decrease in shipments for Apple in the US which is a much more important market?


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac.

about the IDC report, your point is well taken, but it is not the size of increase I am stressing here. It is simply to contrast what you are saying. Birds of a feather flock together and an ever shrinking crowd of cool people I believe is how you put it. 

And now what is this, a .02% increase! Unthinkable! Yes well that .02% increase also translates into a 40% rise in laptop sales for apple in that area in that quarter over last. Are we seeing more macs. My answer is yes!! 

And I cannot speak for your local, but at the moment where I am sitting, that also seems to be the trend. Even if it is a .0001% increse. 

My point is simply that the mac is in a much better position to expand now that it is based on unix while at the same time, M$ nolonger has unlimited free penalty kicks on an empty net. 

It will be hard for M$ to compete in the long run with free (not as in apple free, but free as in linux/openoffice/mySQL free). That tends to slow growth and make shareholders unhappy. All of these things can only translate into one thing over the long run. Change in M$ policies or change in actual market share points(not market share points as in IDC market share points but actual market share points).

You might be surprised to know that about a year ago, Billy and the boys(some girls too) pulled more than 10 billion out of M$ in stock. Monkey boy himself pulled a cool 2 billion. This is public knowledge by the way so you can go see for yourself. Could be all that confidence in market share points.

About my confusion on unix/linux. I hope I am at least spelling it right. 

And now that you have cleared any confusion you were having about which one of these things is not like the other, I was just woundering if you had in your endless list of surveys, something on what a small group of users like the unix/linux users of the world would use at home as compared to at the office. Birds of a feather might fit in well here.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*So, does not a cheapo Windows XP Home machine play in the same area as Mac OS X? Would you not say that Microsoft is focusing on some of the same areas that Apple does?*

They are indeed making a token attempt, but in the sub-1000$ range i don't believe it is anything more than a token attempt. "Hey, look what Apple's doing! We can do that too!"

But considering that the IDC report we were discussing compares computer manufacturers market share and not OS market share (at least, the ones that I've read), shouldn't we be comparing Apple to HP or Dell or Sony?

Dell for example, while selling to many people indeed, sells the bulk of their machines to business last time I checked. HP (the biggest computer manufacturer in the world) sells most of their machines to people wanting the before mentioned modern typewriters. Sony is probably the only other manufacturer that competes in the same market that Apple does: people wanting to do cool multimedia stuff.

Dell and HP are starting to get the idea, HPs digital photography initiative is starting to pick up steam.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that if you ask Mac users what they bought their machine for most of them will probably say "I want to do cool, creative things"[1] whereas if you talk to most PC users I bet they say "I needed to check email and write papers".

But I think we're getting to the point here where we're arguing just for the sake of arguing. So lets agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

[1] The odd person will probably say "I wanted a more stable machine" too.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

A. The .02 percent increase in sales does not necessarily translate into a 40 percent increase in laptop sales. For all you know, there could have been a corresponding decrease in iMac sales because people prefer laptops.
In my locale, Toronto, I only know one person who has gotten a Mac in the last couple of years and it's a used one. I don't think that I'm a good sample simply because I don't see a great deal of people where I'm currently working. If I go to Wi-Fi Power in March then I can do an informal scan of the crowd and see what laptops they are using.

B. As for Apple being able to expand because it's based on Unix, how so? People still have to pay Apple for a machine to run its OS X on. And Apple is not going to let you download OS X and compile it and burn it to CD and then load it on a computer.
Linux is a threat to both Apple, Unix and MS! I look at my g/f who runs Slackware (made a mistake earlier, she does not run Debian) and Red Hat on a laptop and some of the programs she runs include Pagemaker and OpenOffice. She's gone from Mac to Linux because she can't afford to purchase a new iBook or PowerBook to replace her PowerTower Pro. She's interested in OS X but she says that Linux does everything she needs.
She made a good case for me to almost move over from 10.1.5 a month ago when I was looking for a FAST websurfing experience along with a rock solid OS that won't crash. Good thing I got Panther instead!
I'm not going to deny that Linux (not Unix) isn't going to make in-roads but the more inroads it makes the more likely we won't see OS X becoming more common.

C. More confusion about Linux and Unix...I asked my g/f and she said that they are not the same thing. She says that Linux is based on Unix but that's about it.
Fine, I looked at a couple of old Red Hat Linux Server books (one by Kabir) that we have lying around and basically they say that Linux is a Unix-like OS. They do not say Linux is Unix.

Posterboy, as I said before, I agreed to disagree. And I guess I'm that odd person who wants a more stable machine.  
I no longer need a Mac for DTP nor for photo manipulation nor for website design nor for web programming. What I need a Mac for now is what I could use a Linux box for which is FAST websurfing and stability. Of course, if I wanted total web compatibility I would go with a dual-boot Windows and Linux box.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Just cant let a good thing die. This has been entertaining for me at the least. 

Ironmac, sorry for the delay, I was away from my desk for a spell.

Your first point and the reason I pursued this to such great hieghts. 

Marketshare. I dont think you have a good understanding of the term market share as it is used when IDC files a report. Thier report should say market share of quarterly sales. This is vastly different to an installed user base which would be used to describe total market share of a product or service. 

The IDC reported that apple experienced a .02% increase in sales marketshare for the quater in that area. 

That is to say that they gained ground during the quarter in terms of unit sales. A breakdown showed that the power mac sales droped by 8% while laptop sales grew by 40%. These percentage points are a comparison within the apple sales chain of products meaning that apple sold 40% more laptops during that quater over last which gave them a .02% increase in sales market share when you compare them to everyone else. 

The global revenue blew past 2 billion for the first time in 4 years. We are not talking about installed user base here just unit sales. 

So you cant take an IDC report and start advertising in the papers that apple is an ever shrinking group of cool people. This implies to me that you think the IDC report is telling you that apple has lost 2% of its installed user base. This could have happend, but you can not state that based on what IDC reports.

Your 2nd point. How will unix help apple. 

Unix/Linux are well placed in industry which is an area where M$ was successful in keeping apple away from. 

Secondly, Unix/Linux are also becoming more mainstream with the home user. 

Apple on unix can bring something to the table here. Multimedia entertainment done right. Also, if you run a large office and still want M$ office apps, apple is the only unix os that can bring that to you at the moment. I would recommend going with openoffice, but some habits are hard to break.

Lastly, you can read this little clip which says that same thing another way.

The article reads
A Revelation'


Michael Swenson, life sciences computing analyst at research firm IDC, told the E-Commerce Times that Apple's Unix-based Mac OS X has been the driver of Mac popularity in such areas as bioinformatics and chemistry, mainly because porting open-source applications from Linux and Unix has become a trivial process.
"Having that flexibility to hit a key and go from Microsoft Office to an open-source application and back is appealing" to scientists, Swenson said.

For his part, Theodore Gray, director of user interface technology and co-founder of Mathematica makerWolfram Research, said that before OS X, some problems were too big for Macs to handle. Now, he noted, Macs can tackle almost any task.
"It's safe to say that, since Mac OS X became widely adopted, there has been an increase of use within [the scientific] community," Gray told the E-Commerce Times. "Scientists tend to prefer Unix (including Linux) over anything else, and Mac OS X is a revelation. You can compile all of your stuff: source code, projects, scientific subroutines. Mac OS X provides a nice environment for all of them."

Indeed, as senior software engineer at the MIT Whitehead Institute for Genome Research, William Van Etten once needed four computers to do his work: a Windows box for productivity , a Unix box for development, a Linux computer for Linux development and a notebook computer.
When Mac OS X became viable, Van Etten was able to slim down to a single computer: a Mac.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

heya mac java, was wondering what had happened to you, ok, on with the show:

A. I know what marketshare is because my current job is writing up such reports.  IDC happens to be somewhat of a competitor to the firm I work with. Now, as I said before, the .02 percent increase in quarterly sales does not necessarily translate into 40 percent more laptops. There is no breakdown in the mix of product sales from the report.

B. Now, what can OS X bring to the mainstream user? Multimedia entertainment done right? I don't deny that but that's not necessarily a function of OS X being a Unix operating system.

C. For large firms, can OS X bring something to the table? Well, as before, I doubt that it does bring a whole lot. The following are three stories that I quickly googled that show that Linux on the desktop in the enterprise space is growing. These stories, along with your German adoptions shows that Linux is making headway.
As for Office compatiblity you can go with the Wine "emulator" or you can go with CodeWeavers CrossOver Office product for a small price. Of course, OpenOffice is always a choice and my g/f also recommends it. So, as you can see, OS X on Unix is not the only OS that can bring you Office apps. Linux is making headway against both Windows, Unix and Mac.

http://www.newsforge.com/business/03/08/13/1424212.shtml
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4521&page=2
http://www.linuxworld.com/story/37858.htm

It just occurred to me, enterprises that are going with Linux don't necessarily need to purchase new boxes. They can simply take their older ones, download a distro, compile it, burn it to CD and load it on to however many machines they want. For all we know, the Linux desktop market share might be a lot bigger than anyone suspects.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Here is the breakdown from another article. I could not find the original, but it says the same thing.

article reads
Apple Computer shipped 25% more Macs in the UK in the Q4 2003 than the previous year, according to marketing intelligence firm IDC. An analyst for the company believes consumer interest in Apple's iPod portable music player helped to spotlight its Macintosh PC and benefited sales. For the full year, Apple had a 7.5% growth giving the company a 2.3% market share overall in the UK. Desktop shipments declined 8% while notebook shipments of the PowerBook and iBook grew 40%.

"The numbers were strong for Apple in the quarter and the year overall wasn't bad either," research analyst Ian Gibbs told The Mac Observer from London. "10% year-on-year growth was seen in desktop shipments and 50% in notebooks. Apple also experienced growth in both the consumer and the commercial PC markets." The healthy jump in fourth-quarter shipments gave Apple a market share of 2.2%. A year ago, Apple shipments had declined 3%, leaving it with a market share of 2.1%.

About your second point. You are correct, the simplicity and ease that apple is knowen to build into thier software is not a function of being unix. 

It seems you keep missing the point. Now you can have that same familiar feel on a unix box. in other words, osX brings the cornerstone of apples creativity software to the masses in a unix wrapper. 

A lot of what I have been writing about in this thread, has roots going back to what were once prime arguments of buying a windows box over a mac box. You know the ones, no software, no games, no compatability, no stability ect...

Now that apple is on unix, all of those arguments are awash and anything good that happens to the unix/linux (whatever world) is good for apple too. 

Lets look at numero uno. The big one. The one argument that really carried weight all through the years. Software! This was the dagger that M$ eventually put in the heart of apple. 

You can yak all you want about hardware. No doubt it is important, but without software, it is just another thing sitting around collecting dust. 

You have overlook the one thing that makes this industry go around and if you have not overlook it at times, you certainly underestimate the gravity of the situation. 

Software ports between these different flavours or platforms is now trivial. opensource Software is being ported to the mac os by the hundreds. 

This was not possible before osx. Let that culture grow a bit before you make such bold statements. The other thing that will start to become apparent is that as linux creates more inroads, the dependancy on M$ software becomes weaker. This will ultimately become the double edged sword to pierce M$'s armour.

What does mac bring to the corporate world you asked! At the moment, certainly not what linux can bring. But take a step back for a moment. Apple and its corporate venture are just begining. 

Certainly you dont expect a company to enter a market place and with in 12 months become the leader between multi billion dollar gorillas. They have done not bad citing the worlds 3rd fastest super computer and over 20 thousand servers sold. 

These numbers a laughable by Dell or IBM standards, but in terms of stepping stones, they are taking the right ones. Remember, servers often sooner or later mean clients. 

Again, the original question was are we seeing more macs. I think it is a very valid question and one I would answer with a deffinate yes! 

What mac brings to the corporate world at the moment is simply more gravity and wieght to the overall unix spearhead. 

Remember, the server side has always been more heavily populated by unix(flavours). The battle M$ is facing at the moment is loosing a large segment of its client side to opensource and linux.

One good thing about apples present small market share is that it makes your last statement false. As you have pointed out, apple does not have a strong presence in the corporate client side of things yet. This fact would make it difficult for linux to be making inroads against apple. Apple has few construction sites in the way of the linux super highway. 

Keep your eye out for osx10.4. You might be surprised at how linux like it is.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Sorry for the wordy posts, but I should have added this to the last one.

The clip I posted about the German Fed is in addition to the municipal Gov of Munich and represents on of the largest linux mainframe installments in Europe. 

Munich was not the first city to go open source in Germany. They were beat to the punch by a smallar city whos name escapes me now. 

As I write this, you can also read on cnet's site about the French Gov who are now in vesability studies regarding the adoption of open source linux and migrating away from M$.

You made a comment in your last post which was something that I was alluding to from the beging. 

It is possible that true marketshare or installed user base has seen a change in the last 24 months not in favor of M$. 

Of course as marketing strategies go, M$ would spend tens of millions to keep that little secret from the street. 

Eventually the burdon will become to great and the truth will spill out for all to see. Only time will tell as M$ still has the wings of fortune on thier side.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Ok,

A. You may quote the same thing from IDC but it doesn't say that the .02 percent increase is directly attributable to an increase in laptop sales. In fact, on one line it says that there was decline in desktop shipments and the next it says that desktops were up. Until I see it directly attributable it will still be disputable.

B. While we both agree that software is what is important, you're missing the point when I say that OS X may not bring anything to the table. In terms of desktops in the business world, what is most important? MS Office compatibility!
We all know that you can get that from OS X but we also know that we can get it from Linux. (As far as I know, I don't think you can get it on any other Unix OS).
So, as an enterprise IT manager, why not corral some older Pentiums that I have lying around and throw on Linux and OpenOffice, CrossOver Office or Wine? Why should I spend over C$1000 per workstation when I can use workstations that will cost me almost nothing?
What about the home desktop? Well, the big bugaboo has been games (yes, I know that the Mac has content creation stuff but that was not available in the past and what happened in the past is now affecting us.). If you think that us Mac users have it bad when it comes to games, pity the Linux user!
No amount of porting will allow OS X/Linux/Unix catch up to the Windows world. We need serious investment in developing games for Macs before the Mac becomes an attractive gaming platform. Remember, the hardcore users are the ones who recommend machines to their family and friends.

C. As for the statement, servers eventually lead to clients, well, that didn't happen for Unix did it? And let's not bring up OS X because that took almost 40 years and would not have happened without Jobs' deciding to go with BSD.

D. I NEVER said that Linux was making inroads against Apple. What should be a take-away from my earlier posts is that Linux will make it that much more difficult for OS X to make headway into the enterprise market. Linux is the one making headway against Windows in the enterprise market.

E. Your additional post about the French government...note that they are doing feasibility studies about Linux and OpenSource software, NOT that they are considering OS X.

The upshot of all of this is that you're arguing that MS is hurting, I don't dispute that, what I do dispute is whether or not OS X will play a significant role in that. As I said before, Linux is a competitive threat to all three-Unix, Windows and OS X.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

Iron:
(1) 
wrt the Unix/Linux debate, I think the reason for the confusion is best described as "unix as the operating system" or "UNIX as the trade-mark". (capitalization deliberate)

Linux is not derived from the *trade marked UNIX* variants but is "unix" in the sense that it uses the same ideas in the Kernel, handle filesystems, devices, networking, etc.

Semantics.

(2) Your position on Linux being competitive to OS X?
Hardly. 
Simple examle:
Want to surf the Net with Linux and use plugins for
a) QuickTime
b) WIndows Media player
c) RealPlayer
You'll be SOA.
Wine? Crossover? Hey, I used these for several months last year 
and found them to be highly unreliable and difficult to install/manage.

Have you even *used* OpenOffice?
I mean day in and day out?
Its ugly and does not render all but the simplest documents.
Forget about PowerPoint.
MS Office for The Mac does these stunningly and don't hold your breath for MS to support Office for Linux. 
*AND* you think that OpenOffice is going to be able to keep up with Microsoft Office in the years to come. Wake up!
Linux is fantastic for servers and for very spacific commercial use of the type we are going to see with Sun Java Desktop and China etc.

As a technoligy writer you owe it to us to do more research than "asking your g/f"


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I was always under the impression that it is possible to have a growth in sales whilst still maintaining the same marketshare? Wouldn't the marketshare percentage be irrelevant to actual sales?

Meaning, Apple could actually be selling more Macs than ever, but the current trends in PC sales could be even more to offset Apple's sales to show little or now marketshare growth in either direction?

Why not focus on the actual number of Apple sales over the last 10 years rather than _percentages_ that are based on how other companie's sales are doing... you'll probably see a much different picture.

Let's face it, it's been said (and actually studied and documented) that PCs have a much shorter lifespan than their Mac counterparts (our design firm still utilizes 2 Beige G3 towers). So, wouldn't that have a greater effect on both sales as well as marketshare?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Hiya kiddie,

A. Semantics? Hardly! Different code used to do the same thing.

B. Surf the web and need plugins for Quicktime, Windows Media player and RealPlayer...well, you could use Codeweaver's CrossOver Plugins for both Quicktime and Windows Media player...don't know about RealPlayer.
Here are two reviews of the earlier versions. The writers don't seem to have any problems so it might be a case of user-error  

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5463
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/08/29/0233236&mode=thread

C. Per OpenOffice, from what I've seen it looks pretty full featured, it has its own presentation package and the reviews say that it's as good as Office 2000 for Windows (which is the version that I use). It's continually being developed and, guess what, you can get it for FREE. Can't say that for MS Office..btw, I do own Office X...don't look forward to paying for the upgrade in a few months!

BTW, as a Mac owner, why do you *use* OpenOffice so much?

D. As a technology writer, my focus is not on Linux or Unix so my g/f will have to fill in. I'm not going to call up the CEO of Red Hat like I do with the other firms simply to answer questions on a board.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MannyP, what I'm saying from the earlier posts is that PCs are being kept and used for a longer period of time than the commonly accepted 3 years. That number was applicable for studies done two or three years ago. Economics of the market and the power of computers means that that has changed.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac. This newsreal is spinning so fast I can hardly keep up with my day job and all.

The article says that apple experienced .02% growth in market share and the breakdown was a 40% increase in laptops with a 8% decrease in desktops. You can take it from there and come to your own conclusions about where the .02% growth came from.

Games are big no doubt, but if M$ loses a battle for the desktop with linux in the corporate setting, this would shift the balance of power away from M$ and pave the way for new players. This could be one of the possible answers to your question what does the mac bring to the table. Maybe it is the unix box dad brings home for his kids to game out with while he uses it to catch up with the office on the weekend.

Ask yourself why unix was unable to win the clients before and now all of the sudden, M$ cant seem to stop the deffections? I go back to an earlier point. The landscape is very different now that M$'s business practices are being scrutinized. Before they were found guilty of breaching the Tunney act, M$ held absolute sway with almost all corners of the IT industry. A rebirth of technology is happening and M$ to a certain extent has allienated itself from it. 

Look at the newton. Dont you think it odd that it failed only to be succeded a few years later by inferior technology. Oh excuse me, I forgot the important point, the new technology supported windows. There is an endless list of techonology that was stunted in growth or crushed perminently out of existance under the sway and power of the redmond monopoly. Take the iPod. if this were ten years ago, I would bet the farm that it would never have reached the stage it is today. I would also bet that a few months after it vanished, a chopped up version would appear with a M$ logo at the startup prompt. That is the sad reality of what happened.

You said "Linux is making headway against both windows, unix and mac" and I took that for what it says. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

My post said that the French were looking at adopting opensource linux and migrating away from 
M$. I mentioned nothing of mac osX. As I have said before. Anything good happening in the unix world is good for the rest of the unix world. 

If high level deffections like this continue without recourse from M$, it is not hard to imagine what future lay ahead. 

It has that famous last words from the captain of Titanic "we will be stoping near newfoundland for a while" feeling to it. Or something more appropriate, " shes made of iron ore capn and I assure you... she will sink! 

Fun and games aside, M$ still has an ace in the deck. Time will tell if they play it right. 

The threat is real for sure, but it is directed at M$. Consider this. Go back 15 years and replay the M$/Apple battle for the desktop. The reason it was a winner takes all comes from the fact that the 2 were so vastly different in system design and architecture. 

M$ won when once they had enough weight to starve software development on the mac. The mac was essentially reduced to a neich market player. 

Now fast forward to today and lets have some fun and say that Linux is able to replace windows as the marketshare king. The vast difference is now between M$ and unix. 

Maybe apple will be the home version of the unix you run at the office. But because this whole thing revolves around software, being unix based will be a very good thing if it comes to this. Granted these might be big if's


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Mac java:

A. I think that one reason that M$ is losing desktop share (or, a better term might be that they are not growing as quickly) is that Linux presents a much better value proposition. Note that I didn't say that Unix was gaining more sales and I am not including OS X here.

B. I'm not sure that the Newton failed despite it having superior technology. I think it failed because it had problems such as very poor handwriting recognition and high pricing. Palm was a success because it was able to execute what it was designed to do.

C. I don't think that Mac lost out because software development was starved by M$. M$ depended on Apple in the first few years of its life and it would make no sense to strangle Apple. Rather, Apple itself made a series of missteps that has lead it to where it is today.

If Linux succeeds in muscling out M$ from the corporate desktop I don't see why it can't muscle out OS X elsewhere. If it doesn't do that, then, at the very least it will keep OS X out of the enterprise desktop environment.


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## rogueToe (Dec 13, 2002)

> Macs last 5 years? That's an old figure that I think is highly unreliable. If we were to take that seriously then I'd be running an Power Macintosh Blue and White.

That's what we're running at the newspaper where I work, along with Quark 4. There's the occasional crash but otherwise there is no real reason to upgrade.

Mark


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

> If Linux succeeds in muscling out M$ from the corporate desktop I don't see why it can't muscle out OS X elsewhere. If it doesn't do that, then, at the very least it will keep OS X out of the enterprise desktop environment.


The corporate desktop is not really Apple's ambition.
Therefore in that arena Linux and Mac OS X do not compete. Don't take my word for it, just look at the /pro pages on apples site.

Furthermore Apple and Mac OS X will benefit from the proliferation of Linux in the corporate desktop. Think about it, with OS diversity Apple's 3 or 4% share *really is* like the BMW analogy (presently that analog is *iffy* at best). Software developers will be forced to develop with cross platform porting in mind, specifically to Linux. And whatever compiles on Linux will be fairly easy to compile in OS X (at least with X11)

You have to read this "Linux Macintosh and the Global Future" here

and this one here to see what I'm talking about.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

A) This is no real revelation. You are simply stating the obvious and what has already been said in this thread over and over. It will be hard for M$ to compete with free! 

Note that linux is a flavor of unix so any gains will be one small step for linux, one giant leap for unix flavors. Read skript Kiddies post above. It is hard to miss the logic.

B&C) To make a point about the newton or iPod in regards to the M$ antitrust case is bold to say the least. One could even argue that the statement is baseless. 

But unless you have just returned to earth from outerspace somewhere, you should at least be up to date with the present day legal situation that M$ now finds itself in.

Lets just say that M$ has been found guilty of using its influence to illegally place barriers to trade and to carry out rather dubious business practices. Although the thrust of the case was centered around browser technology, the floor was littered with examples of how those barriers to trade affected technology in other areas. 

To say that a nonwindows technology failed or a nonwindows company was reduced to nothing because of its own missteps is ridiculous and irresponsible to say the least.

To say that M$ needed apple at the begining and therfore is proof that they would do nothing to hurt a major competitor is even more baseless considering all the dirty laundry that was made public in the antitrust case. 

You are correct about one thing though, M$ did need apple in the begining. They developed the first versions of word and powerpoint on the mac. This is what lead to a legal battle between M$ and apple. 

Apple accused M$ of stealing its GUI and they lost because the judge ruled that M$ did not steal the API, apple gave it to them to develope software for the platform. So much for the I promise we are friends senario.

And if you think that apple lost more than 80% of its market share for any other reason than the lack of software dev for the platform, then I question your logic and common sense. 

The big misstep that jobs made was that he overestimated what someone was willing to pay for a fancy GUI that was ahead of its time and certainly ahead of windows. 

This is the very point that M$ was able to play on and build a large installment of users. I remeber the catch phrase that was popularized by M$ back in the day when they needed to buy time for thier own GUI dev. "real men dont play with mice" or "you arent using a real computer if it does not have a command line prompt". 

Once they massed a huge installment of the cheap upgrade every 12 month computer, they continued the march with numerous tacticts that would speed the rise of M$. The most important of those was to starve software dev on other platforms including IBM's own OS2. 

D)No one can say for sure how the IT world would divide if a technology like unix actually overthrows windows on the desktop. 

But you will be hard pressed to convince me that apple as a unix flavor would be better served in a world with a proprietory OS like windows that supports closed software dev then in a world that would be dominated by a similar unix OS that supports open software dev. 

If linux rises above M$, apple will be able to plugin and access with much more ease as well as be able to participate in whatever the software trend of the day is through opensource dev. 

I am sure there will continue to be specific markets for all the different flavors of unix, but all unix flavors will benefit in the end. 

The end of this story has not been writen yet. I would expect though that we will not have to wait much longer. I would think that within the next 24 months, it should be obvious what impact if any linux will have on the overall equation of installed user base. 

I feel it will not be long before we start to read the newsreals that linux is zooming past apple in market share. Then headlines that read about linux making gains on M$. Then...
Only time will tell. So sit back and enjoy the show.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Script kiddie;

A. As I've said many many times before, Linux will make it harder for Apple to compete in the corporate desktop market. Bet you anything that Apple would love to appear on more desks in corporate *insertyourcountryhere*.

B. Sure, there will be lots of Linux programs as time goes on and they can be ported over to OS X but as an enterprise IT manager why should I have Macs in the first place when I can easily use a cheapo Linux box? This scenario assumes that I currently have Windows machines. There would be no need for me to switch over to Mac.
Your articles, especially the Indian one, illustrates this point perfectly...if they were to outfit departments with new computers...who will they choose? Windows, Linux or Mac? It looks like they are choosing Linux.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Mac java:

A. You don't seem to get beyond your M$ bashing here at all. You don't understand what I'm trying to say or are unable to make the logical leap..not only will M$ be unable to compete with free but Apple will not either. I hope this is the last time I need to repeat this.

B. You're actually the only one that I know of who doesn't see (or know) that Apple shot itself in the foot in the early days of computing when it failed to license out its OS.

C. Apple was ruled to have made a mistake in writing up the contract allowing MS to use their GUI. Apple was not specific enough in which version MS was allowed to work with or develop.

D. I think you're overreaching when you say that MS was responsible for starving software development on the Mac and by attributing those slogans to them.

E. Tell me something, how did MS manage to capture the upgrade cycle? It's because they licensed out DOS to IBM and many many corporations simply bought what IBM or its various competitors were buying. It's all a matter of relationships.

F. I never said that Apple would do better in a world with MS. You're the one that's saying that Apple as a Unix flavor will do better in a Linux world. From what I've seen you haven't proven that or brought forward any arguments that would remotely back up that assertion. All you're saying is that "apple will be able to plugin and access with much more ease well as be able to participate in whatever the software trend of the day is through opensource dev". Please, ask yourself why the end-user would use a much more expensive Mac when they can build a cheapo linux box.

G. I think that we will see Linux more and more in various areas and I think we will see less and less Unix and Windows operating systems over time. All your articles are showing that Linux is gaining, I don't see anything so far that shows Unix (or OS X) gaining at all.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

> Bet you anything that Apple would love to appear on more desks in corporate *insertyourcountryhere*.


Your opinion is lively and welcome but regarding your statement quoted above, *where is your evidence*?

It is patently obvious that Apple's dear desire is in the high end of science, music, video, design, etc. Populating the cube farms or or help desk centres is suspiciously absent. The page, incase you missed it is http://www.apple.com/pro

The punchline: Linux does not do well in this arena, and that is why it is the Achillles heel of your "Linux against Mac" argument.

Please IronMac, I'm open to any credible evidence to the contrary. Opinion, however dear must at some point be "obfuscated with facts"


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

kiddie, I suggest you look at this link:

http://www.apple.com/business/

And before you say that it's geared solely to small businesses then you should look at the networking features of OS X here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/networking/

How many "small" firms have Unix servers and VPNs?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Linux may not be as capable as Windows and OS X at the moment but, in a recent article:

http://www.short-media.com/article.php?133.0

it says that in the space of 3-4 years there will be something like 10 upgrades to the Linux OS. Developments happen much more quickly on the Linux platform.

Apple's obviously going after markets where it has an advantage, for now.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Hot off the press! There's a Fortune article in the latest issue (Feb. 23, 2004) which quotes a Merrill Lynch survey which says that 58% of large-company CIOs have a growing interest in open-source DESKTOP software.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

> And before you say that it's geared solely to small businesses then you should look at the networking features of OS X here:
> ...
> How many "small" firms have Unix servers and VPNs?


I think you're reaching just a tad far on this one.

Two out of the three jobs I've had in the last 7 years were in companies with fewer than 150 employees and we had both "unix" servers and VPNs! The University department I was in for, err, many years also had both. Along those lines, you do realize that on Apple's site when they say "unix" they include *BSD, Linux, and the trademarked Unix flavours. 
Not typical you say? Ah but they were in companies that fit the Unix Switcher profile to a tee, and Universities are a dead ringer for Apple.

C'mon Iron! Its been really fun but, its getting a little thin now 
 
Remember the scene from Month Python and the Holy Grail when the Black Knight is writhing on the ground with no limbs left, yelling "c'mon back I'll bite your ankles". Somehow I feel its at that point now


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

script kiddie:

Despite the fact that Apple does have software and a separate page for "Business" (like they do for "Pro") and that I don't know of any small companies with Unix servers you simply refuse to take that into consideration. Why don't YOU prove that Apple doesn't want the corporate desktop market. I'd like to see you explain why there is a page for Business.

If you want to persist in believing that Apple doesn't want a piece of the corporate desktop market that's your own outlook but it would be going against all the evidence.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

Ohhhh Kayyyy.
Let's have a wee looksie ... www.apple.com/business and in huge font we have








Oh, never mind that, Its just a trick to throw sensible people off Apple's BIG BUSINESS ambitions!

First up we have Obstetrician Nigel Spier.. Oh dam, well he looks sort of like a Big Business doctor, hummm yep I'm sure he's got a room full of customer support monkeys in the back room..

OK, second we have a cute couple selling Vespa scooters, Yeah Id say that Zach and Wen Schieffelin look like the budding tycoon type. Oh yeah, hey wait I can see the blue suits in the background.

Third in our multinational conglomerate line-up we have Monica Von Thun Calderon, owner and operator of a funky little bakery in New York City. WAIT!! Do I see a bag of Monsanto's Roundup Ready GMO Wheat flour in the background?!?!?! SEE!!! Its the ugly face of big business again

Dam I've so blind to the facts staring me in the face, Apple *really* is after the Corporate Desktop!!!!

[ February 16, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Script Kiddie ]


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

kiddie,

While it does say "Small Business" at the top that does not prove that Apple does NOT want the corporate desktop. You may want to check out this article:

http://www.macnn.com/feature.php?id=384

Like I said, they would love a piece of that market. Let's see you come up with something from Apple that says something along the lines of "Well, we're not really gunning for the corporate desktop market" and I'll concede the point.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Oh wait, another article (more recent)

http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5103151.html

about a firm that's firmly fixed to the consumer market...yeah right.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac.

In 1985 apple threatened legal action against M$ for copy write infringement. In a last minute deal Gates and the then CEO of apple and former soft-drink salesman, signed an agreement to license some of the GUI for windows V1.0 in a trade to delay a pc version of excel and continue software development for the mac. 3 years later and after seeing the shortcomings of M$ intentions, apple sued and lost as it was deemed that they had already given the GUI away. This was obviously not the intention, but if you buy into M$ legal argument, then there was no real reason for apple to threaten legal action in the first place as they were willing to give it all away for free anyway. 

The corner stone of this was not that M$ needed apple because they were going to take what they needed anyway, but it was apple that needed M$. Without continued software support for the apple platform, apple had a different kind of problem. There are many who believe myself included that apple was fed a sugar coated bad deal. No matter, at the end of the day, M$ got what it wanted and for free I might add.

It is not M$ bashing that I am after here. You started out this thread with false implications about what an IDC report means and then made the logical leap that it might be M$ who is falling short on numbers. The M$ bashing is meant to highlight why I believe apple will be much more successful if a unix OS becomes the dominant force in IT. It is obvious that apples market share under the classic OS is largely due to the fact that it had poor compatibility with M$ and poor software support overall. Things have changed significantly since the arrival of OSX. And things will improve even more significantly if a unix type OS becomes the dominant factor. It is hard to tell exactly how things would look in the end, but one thing is certain in my mind and that is that apple is in a win/win situation if linux succeeds. As I have already said, the end of this story has not yet been written.

If DEAD MEN ASSUME! Then I would say this has been more than a near death experience for you. You are assuming a lot!

You are assuming that everyone is like you and has just figured out that M$ is under fire and the source is a unix OS.
You are assuming that apple has migrated to a unix OS without a vision for what will come tomorrow.
You are assuming that apple cant release OSX for intel chips.
You are assuming that apple wont integrate even more linux compatibility in future versions of OSX.
You are assuming that apple (given the right market conditions) cant release its own cheapo unix box.
You are assuming...

Your assumptions are likely inaccurate because you are trying to replace what should become tomorrow with what you know today. It is not likely that IBM and apple have been driving in this direction for more than half a decade without knowing where they are heading. The M$ defections you witness today have likely been in the works for some time. And like I have already said. If linux wins, the landscape will look considerably different to what it is today.

You demand proof. Read your last post







I think it is talking about another increase. Are we seeing more macs. Yup. 

Linux is a flavor of Unix and I hope this is the last time I need to repeat this!


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

I enjoyed reading those articles, but don't they pretty much support the view that when it comes to Apple and business, its small business. In the 1st article just about every time the word "business" is used it appears in the phrase "small business":
The second article is a very nice article for its own sake inter but I can't help but notice
"Regarding its enterprise efforts, Apple says it has made some investments in Xserve and Xserve RAID, but that it was taking a more gradual, low-investment approach to expand its presence."

So to your main thesis, that Linux is going to take market share from OS X, I remain mostly unconvinced. Sorry  I get paid for Linux and Solaris development, and various other Unix sys admin (all from an OS X desktop). Over the last 15 years have had plenty of 1st hand experience with all these platforms from both desktop and server use. In our company we are getting Linux traction particulary in Asia, and Mac OS X support requests from Universities and printshops in North America (after years of scratch). I don't see any competition between the two crowds at this time. But I believe that if that time does come it will mean that Linux and Mac OS X are both so strong, and MS monopoly so smashed that it won't really matter to survival of either. Amen to that future.

Hey you missed the one where IBM is up to some shenanigans with Linux and Microsoft Office! feast your eyes
Another emulation dud?  

Another aside: Here is a hard core Linux type writing on why Mac OS X is so attractive even to Linux propeller-heads. kernelthread

[ February 17, 2004, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Script Kiddie ]


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Scirpt Kiddie  

In regards to ironmac. He just does not seem to get it. He said in one of his earlier posts that people see only what they want! I guess we have to take him on his word.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

A. "false implications"? Exactly what do you mean by that? 

B. You never proved that having Linux become a dominant force in IT will be good for OS X. That's only your supposition and you don't have anything to back it up except blind faith and hope.

And don't put words in my mouth with the assumptions you ascribe to me:

1. I never said that MS is under fire from a Unix OS and I never said that everyone has just figured it out.
2. I never said that Apple moved to Unix without a vision.
3. When did we ever discuss Intel chips?
4. Integrate Linux compatibility? When did we ever mention this?
5. I never said that Apple can't release a cheapo Unix box.

Seriously, have you even read any of the above posts and thought anything through? And think on this, through all of *your* articles, will we see more Linux boxes? YES! Will we see more OS X boxes? NO!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

script kiddie:

A. Those articles are meant to back up my earlier assertion (which you asked for) that Apple would love a piece of the corporate desktop market(not that it's their main focus). You still haven't got anything from Apple along the lines of "Well, we're not really gunning for the corporate desktop market.", and I doubt that you will.

B. As for Linux taking away market share away from OS X I am going to change my mind on that score. The more I think of it, the more likely it is that Linux will forestall any sort of meaningful growth on corporate and, potentially, other desktops for OS X.
As you indicate, Linux is becoming more and more popular, over time, what will happen to OS X as a discrete percentage of market share? It won't grow but that's because Linux will be the choice most taken and not because Linux replaces past and present Mac deployments.

As for the IBM and Office article, personally, I'm more interested in that Java Lotus Notes client because it means that I can (fingers crossed) work at home with the company's Lotus Notes client. Not that I can't do it right now I think...might have a copy of that lying around for Mac. What would be the implications of Office on Linux? It can't be good for MS and its Windows OS.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

Hello Iron;
Rest assured that you have convinced me that there is a desire, however reticent, for Apple to be on the corporate desktop. I am fervently convinced that gains for Linux are on the whole very very good news for the OS X platform, and the computing species in general. Its a case where on the very superficial level one can see competition, but this pales in contrast to the threat of Windows monopoly shutting out others from software distribution and yea even The Net. Banish the thought! The implications for a native Microsoft Office on Linux are great, and while it would be a stunning reversal for Microsoft is not unthinkable. Perhaps they would sacrifice their OS monopoly to safeguard their office document monopoly? We know the latter is more profitable. On the otherhand I've heard the next version of Office is going to be so tied to the OS as to make it inseparable. So I'm very confused about IBM's claims that MS is helping them to port Office to Linux. Something does not compute.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac.

A. Sorry for the poor english. Been having a few late nights at the office lately, but what I meant to convey was that your initial comments were inaccurate concerning the relevance of IDC reports to installed user base. What I was thinking was that you were implicating IDC reports with the false statements you published when you referenced IDC as a source to confirm a "ever shrinking crowed of cool people"
I make no excuses and accept no apologies, thank you for pointing that out to me. My opinion of you has risen considerably.

B. As I have already said. The end of this story has not yet been written. Linux will still have to succeed before you or I can write about the pros and cons of such and how it will affect mac OSX. The only proof anyone can offer at this point regarding apples new OS is what it is doing now. 

There are signs everywhere that OSX has already enjoyed positive impact in both, areas where mac was already popular and in areas it was not. One example would be that the US navy bought xserve technology because it was unix based. This is a new area for the mac. I believe there is also a similar story regarding an Australian military purchase of the same technology. 

This thread is in fact full of links; some of which you pointed to, regarding success stories of the new mac OS. Apple has also released public statements profiling their success in segments of the market that are new to them. 

I would like to ask you a question. Put the linux thing aside for a moment and tell me what you think of the following. Is apple, as a computer platform more successful with its unix based OS; or would they have been better off to stay with the classic OS? 

I have seen a dramatic increase in the use of macs as a computer platform since the arrival of OSX. The conferences that I participate in have seen a remarkable increase in the number and use of apple laptops as presentation platforms in comparison to pre OSX days. In addition, I can tell you first hand that apple is making huge steps in medical research because of its unix based OS. This was an area that was largely a closed door even for people that liked and used the classic platform. 

My point is that because OSX is showing some success at present in what is now a largely M$ world, it can only get better if M$ is replaced by an OS that is more like apples OSX. Compatibility and software dev issues will become trivial at most. 

Does it really matter what apples intentions are regarding corporate sales? I would think that it should be more than obvious that apple would not turn away a huge corporate account. Placing the resources of 70 staff out of tens of thousands (including retail chains) is hardly a major push into the corporate sector. I cant speak for others on this forum, but I would say that others have pointed out to you that the corporate setting is not apples main focus. It is clear that they remain very active in small biz, education and home use. That is not to say that apple wont take what it can get from corporate sales, but it would be futile at this point to expend huge resources on something that is not likely to bare fruit at the moment. This might change especially if M$ becomes less important in that segment of the industry. 

I have a lot of hope for the future, but I can assure you, non of it is wrapped in blind faith. 

I will return the favor and ask you to provide me with proof that linux is making headway and or inroads on OSX. Show me where OSX is at risk to linux. Your view has change considerably over the course of this discussion from apple as an ever shrinking crowd of cool people, to linux might have a larger installed user base than expected and then again to apple is failing or will fail in the corporate sector. I would like to see this proof of yours. 

Ironmac reads:

Feb 9
In any case, I don't deny that business PC sales help toinflate the number of PCs out there but such sales do not disguise the fact that Mac market shares is on a steady decline. 

Feb 11
As for whether or not we are seeing more Macs? Let me tell you a story...years ago, when I got my first (and only) car, I wasnaturally pretty excited about it..so much so that I started to see iteverywhere. I mean, in movies such as "Independence Day", "You Got Mail", and "Mission Impossible", Mac users saw that all thecharacters were using Macs. Did PC users care? No.I put it to you, we only see what we want to see and what we care about.

Feb 11
Tell me something, I look atWindows XP Home and it says that it can handle: - create videos to be shared- download, record and share photos- download, store and play music It sounds a lot like a Mac doesn't it? So, does not a cheapo Windows XP Home machine play in the same area as Mac OS X? 
If you say so!

Feb 12
B. As for Apple being able to expand because it's based on Unix,how so? People still have to pay Apple for a machine to run its OSX on. And Apple is not going to let you download OS X and compile it and burn it to CD and then load it on a computer. 

You are assuming that apple cant release a cheapo unix box given the right market conditions and that apple wont release OSX for intel chips when and if the time comes. This would be an oversight on apples part as well as a lack of vision. 

Feb 13
t just occurred to me, enterprises that are going with Linux don'tnecessarily need to purchase new boxes. They can simply taketheir older ones, download a distro, compile it, burn it to CD and load it on to however many machines they want. For all we know,the Linux desktop market share might be a lot bigger than anyonesuspects. 

Sounds like you just made a big discovery. It is good to see that you have all this figured out and thanks for sharing it.

Feb 13
Linux is the one making headway against Windows in the enterprise market.

Should I assume that you mean the windows OS that M$ sells and that it seems to be taking some heat lately.

Feb 13
Linux is making headwayagainst both Windows, Unix and Mac. 

same as above.

Feb 13
So, as an enterprise IT manager, why not corral some olderPentiums that I have lying around and throw on Linux andOpenOffice, CrossOver Office or Wine? Why should I spend over C$1000 per workstame almost nothing? 

Again, you are assuming that apple has the lack of vision to overcome cheap hardware and an x86 version of OSX. We also discussed more linux compatibility issues when I posted that we should wait and see what OSX 10.4 brings regarding this. 

Feb 13
No amount of porting will allow OS X/Linux/Unix catch up to theWindows world 

Games are like movies. They become old quickly. If M$ weakens, you wont have to catch up, it will just be replaced with the next crop of gems.

Feb 16
B. Sure, there will be lots of Linux programs as time goes on and they can be ported over to OS Xbut as an enterprise IT manager why should I have Macs in the first place when I can easily use acheapo Linux box? This scenario assumes that I currently have Windows machines. There would beno need for me to switch over to Mac. 

Again, you are assuming...same as above

Feb 16
Hot off the press! There's a Fortune article in the latest issue (Feb. 23, 2004) which quotes a Merrill Lynch survey which says that 58% of large-company CIOs have a growing interest in open-sourceDESKTOP software. 

Where have I seen this before? A trend most of us have already picked up on.

Ironmac, I never meant to put words in your mouth, but that part of your body seems to be working very well all on its own if you are telling me that you are not responsible for the above comments.

Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome usually manifests itself as an inability to accept reality and is often seen in individuals that have been exposed to a sudden and unexpected high level of stress such as the realization that ones favorite IT company might have trouble justifing its very existence in the near future. Clearly Doctor, this patient is in denial.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Script Kiddie;

I think that Apple's most recent moves towards the corporate desktop (as referenced in the latest links) goes beyond what Apple's CFA was probably thinking in the past, "We have corporate sales? Gravy!"

I just picked up my latest Businessweek (I had to, it was in the mailbox  ) and it has an article about Linux taking over the corporate desktop market. IDC is expected to release a report in the next few weeks stating that desktop Linux sales/market share will outpace that of even Apple. That's the sort of article that will make it even harder for Apple to gain on the desktop and it also indicates how fast that Linux is moving. (I'd post a link but it's not yet available online.)

Businessweek's Wildstrom does have an article talking up Java Desktop and StarOffice 7.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

A. I think that Apple's done great by OS X and it's the only reason that I've stuck with their stock. In 2001, when Apple's stock plunged down from a rally of US$70 or so, I held on because I saw great promise in OS X and I believe that it will help Apple hold on to its current customers and perhaps grow.

B. As for Linux taking over from OS X, there is nothing as far as I know that shows that people are ripping out OS X deployments in favor of Linux.

Now, you haven't answered my question...is there any proof that Linux dominance is good for OS X? Why is it better? Will it mean that Apple sells more OS X boxes? Prove that it does.

As for the list of my comments:

Feb. 9
Still perfectly valid, Mac desktop sales as a share of marketplace has been on a steady decline. The upcoming IDC report, as far as I can tell, does not indicate that it will grow.

Feb. 12
Now, you make no sense here at all...you're saying that because OS X is Unix that Apple may/should/will/whatever release a cheapo Unix box based on Intel chips? That is crazy! The idea of OS X on Intel chips simply because it's Unix does not mean that because OS X is Unix its market share will grow. Do you understand what I'm saying here? You're confusing the idea that simply pushing out cheap boxes based on Unix will grow market share with the idea that OS X being Unix makes it inherently better (for some reason) for growing market share.

Even if Apple came out with OS X on Intel, its price would still be too high, there's a lot of baggage with developing an Apple computer and marketing it. It will never be able to price compete.

I hope that your argument that because OS X is Unix it will grow market share doesn't simply rest on cheapo Unix boxes.

Feb. 13
The corollary to this is that it's not Unix or OS X that is making headway against Windows in the enterprise market. Don't quote things out of context.

Feb. 13
Apple can build a machine that is able to compete against an IT manager who has hardware that is already paid for and simply destined for the trash bin? yeah...right...









Feb. 13
Ahhh....games...as a developer...90 percent of the market...or 10 percent of the market. It should be obvious even to you.

Post traumatic stress syndrome? Let's see...my TDWaterhouse account says I own AAPL...not MSFT. What does that say to you? I hope I don't have to spell it out...


P.S. Medical research was not a closed area...I knew someone in physiology at Guelph and they were using Macs over ten years ago.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac.
As I have said all along from the beginning, the end of this story has not yet been written. It is still up in the air as to just how far linux will get in its quest to dethrone M$. At the moment, things are looking very good in favor of linux and the open source movement. Time will tell! 

My position is that apple is in a win/win situation if this in fact happens. Linux will be a competitor, but not a threat and apple will be in a much improved position to market its wares in a marketplace dominated by unix as opposed to one that is dominated by windows.

I have never based my argument on the possibility that apple will release a version of OSX for intel chips or cheap hardware. I am suggesting possibilities that contrast your assumptions. 

You are assuming a great deal about the future when you say things like:

"Please, ask yourself why theend-user would use a much more expensive Mac when they can build a cheapo linux box."

and

"People still have to pay Apple for a machine to run its OSX on. And Apple is not going to let you download OS X and compile it and burn it to CD and then load it on a computer.Linux is a threat to both Apple, Unix and MS!"

and again

"It just occurred to me, enterprises that are going with Linux don'tnecessarily need to purchase new boxes."

and also

"So, as an enterprise IT manager, why not corral some olderPentiums that I have lying around and throw on Linux andOpenOffice, CrossOver Office or Wine? Why should I spend over C$1000 per workstation when I can use workstations that will costme almost nothing?"

I could not agree with you more ironmac if we were only considering the IT world as it is today. The average corporate user of today has little argument to switch to mac at this point. 

But our present debate is centered on what will happen if MS loses the battle for the corporate desktop space. The landscape will look considerably different then it is today. 

If it ends up as a numbers game without MS; apple could consider an intel version of OSX, lower cost hardware or any number of possibilities to pursue market goals because of the possibilities of catering to a much larger market. 

You seem to be stuck on the fact that the mass majority of news only includes linux at this point. I find nothing odd or threatening about this and in fact fully expect it as it is the natural course of what we are talking about. It would be a little silly to put the cart before the horse don't you think? 

Of course linux has the better opportunity to lead the way against M$ as it has that price/performance edge you picked up on. The M$ monopoly and its barriers to trade will have to be reduced and replaced by unix technology before apple could take advantage of the situation. 

If M$ loses it grip to unix/linux, apple would be looking at a potential market of tens of millions of unix/linux units per quarter as compared to its present 800,000. This would dramatically alter the focus of apple and what they could do. 

This is not to say that at present apple cant take steps to prepare or make efforts in the direction of the corporate IT space. Growing a business often takes progressive little steps. I have every indication that apple is not only making those steps but is making the right ones and plans to be there when the party starts. 

Just look at apple as a platform 7 years ago and compare it to today. Quite impressive. In closing, even if M$ fades away to what ever degree, apple will still have to work hard to compete with linux as well as all the others, but at least it will be with a competitor apple can play with. 

I am afraid that you will just have to wait a little longer before you can advertise with confidence that we will not see more OSX boxes because of linux.

Most people I know use something called confidence as a part of thier investment strategy. Do you always invest in companies you see as an ever shrinking group of cool people? Maybe that is the part that is ever shrinking. Your investment strategy. 

About the games. This is essentially what I am saying. If M$ shrinks, game developers will likely change focus. You know, its that 90% -10% thing. You wont have to port all the old games, just the best ones with the next crop of new ones. 

Instead of me trying to find you proof as to how OSX will grow in the future. You should show me proof how linux is going to be a threat to OSX. I think you are overreaching again and seem to have little more than wishful thinking to fill these pages.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

I think, when you ask for proof of how Linux is a threat to OS X, that you still don't understand what I've said many times before. Linux is not replacing OS X on the (corporate) desktop but rather than it's a choice that is being made by those who are pulling out Windows installations. Virtually all of the articles and examples you've given show that that is what's happening.

You say that Linux dominance will be good for OS X but if that was based on simply selling cheapo Unix boxes I've already shown that to be wishful thinking along with your OS X on Intel idea. Gotta do better than that.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac.
"You have already shown" what and to whom? I will repeat what would already be clear even to a twelve year old by now. My argument is not based on cheap hardware or intel versions of mac OSX. These are simply possibilities that expose flaws in your assumptions that no one will switch to mac because of price or the inability to run mac OSX on whatever intel hardware is currently in place. My argument is based on the consideration that if linux is able to dethrone M$, apple will have access to a much larger market then it currently is used to. This fact could lead to many possibilities including an intel version of mac OSX, but more importantly, cheaper hardware. As you are likely aware, total unit sales are a major factor in the bottom line cost of any product or service. The more you sell, the cheaper it can get. The fact that linux is making all the headlines is not at all threatening, but good news. This in fact is the cornerstone of my argument and will have to happen before apple has a good chance of breaking new ground in the overall corporate space. This debate has lost its luster as it is apparent that you have run out of manoveuring room. All is not lost though ironmac, as linux is still a long way off from achieving this goal.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Mac java:

A. If Linux dethrones MS how does Apple move in? It's not as if there's a vacuum...Linux will be in the place that MS currently holds. Your last line makes this shockingly clear, if Apple is dependent on Linux breaking the MS stranglehold first then what will make anyone switch on over to OS X? (By extension, when you say that Linux has a long way to go...you mean that OS X has an even longer way to go.) I mean, if Apple can't make a convincing case to move to OS X and the end-user switches from Windows to Linux, what does that say to you? Let me spell it out...OS X loses out in that case.

B. You're saying that there's the possibility of cheaper hardware if Linux wins? And Apple ports OS X over to Intel chips? Hrmmm...ok...given that Linux is developed for a very very low price..hey, I can simply download a distro...but Apple's got to pay for OS X's development (I have here an invoice from Seneca for about $116 for Panther (educational price), not including tax)...wouldn't that make OS X still pricey? You may have cheapo hardware (ignoring free hardware for those corporations who have written off the older stuff) but the software is still expensive.

All you have is a lot of blind faith based on improbable what-ifs such as an Intel-based OS X and flawed economics where OS X is cheaper than Linux.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac?
Lets put the linux/osX thingy and what they will or will not do for each other aside for a sec. 

In an effort to make things a little more understandable for U, lets simply look at the windows dominated IT world of today and break it down a bit. 

In todays IT world, it is fairly safe to say that any product or service brought to market will greatly improve its chances of success if it is M$ windows compatible. That is to say that what ever other platforms or technology any given product supports, it will likely be more successfull if that same product also supports M$ windows. The main reason many products dont even support anything other than M$! Just not worth it$$$

In fact, you could go one step further and say that apples market share of todays IT world is small, largely because of its lack of windows support over the years. I know, I know ironmac! There are likely other reasons in your view, but the big one is that apple is based on and has always been based on technology other then M$. And unfortunately for mac users, M$ won the desktop battle long ago.

The question here is what would apples market share look like today if it was just another windows box maker? 

Now think this over ironmac, because this is an important point to grasp. 

Just for fun, lets remove the OS out of the argument. In other words, forget that apple makes its own OS. Lets say that they are another company like Dell, HP or Gateway making hardware that is sold to the enduser with windows installed. This would mean that over the years, all of the products they have released have been for M$ windows. Things like the newton, imac, ipod, powerbook... you get the idea. 

What do you think IDC reports would look like today if this was the case? Would apple be a Dell or a Gateway of the IT world today in terms of quarterly unit sales? 

My guess is that apple would be another Dell. I know, you will probably point out that apple is expensive bla bla bla. Remember iron, if apple was selling millions of units per quarter like Dell, thier pricing structure would be different then what it actually is today. Regardless of this issue; apple has always been a leader in inovative design and technology and would likely be at the top of thier industry. Just guessing, but I would think that apple would be somewhere between 10 and 20 % installed market share. 

I will wait for your response before continuing. So, in closing I leave you with the following questions.

What would apples market share look like today if it was just another windows box maker? 
What would IDC reports look like today if this was the case?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

That's a tough question to answer because there are so many variables involved. It won't be like Dell which has about 14+ percent of the market. It won't be like HP/Compaq which has just over 15 percent of the market (from a recent Businessweek article so I may very well be wrong) because they have a lot of corporate accounts.

As some people have mentioned, they'd probably be something like Sony. A Sony-like Apple would probably have about the same market share as it does now...perhaps even more.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Your response is quite predictable. I purposly left sony out of the mix just to see if you would bring it in. Now tell me why or how you come up with sony? Then tell me why apple would not be more like Dell or HP?


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

forgot one of the most important ones. OR like Gateway?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Mac Java:

I came up with Sony because Apple's more into the digital entertainment area now..especially if you take out the OS factor.

As for Dell or HP/Compaq, let's get real, Dell would crush anyone like Apple or make their market share so insignificant that it's not worth counting. Same goes with HP/Compaq because of their corporate accounts. I suggest you re-read my earlier post.

As for Gateway, they're trying to be like a Sony so they'd be similar. Now, let's see you spring your trap or make your point.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

btw, I'm sure you've probably heard by now how educational sales are still under downward pressure:

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/040225/1957001306_2.html

And, of course, how the head of Apple's corporate sales has just left the company.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

That's it? You believe that Apple would be on top in the Windows market simply because it has a longer history and a few design tweaks?

First of all, it would NOT have a longer history in the Windows market because they would have to get a license from MS like everyone else from Compaq to Dell to Zeos. If you believe they get a preference then you have no clue as to what you're talking about.

Second, because they would not have a longer history than the other companies they would all be starting from a level playing field in the sense that they have an OS and they will have to build a box around it.

What you're talking about is really nonsensical (or delusional, take your pick)...you think that, without the OS, Apple would be able to do the same things that it's done in the past. That's not possible.

You can extrapolate from known facts and reasonable assumptions but if you use false premises (a longer Windows history







) you're simply whistling in the wind.

[ February 27, 2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: IronMac ]


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac?
Actually your advise is good. You should go back and read my original post with the questions regarding apple as just another windows box maker.

The question was asked in the context that apple was an IT hardware maker like Dell, Hp or Gateway from the begininig without thier own OS. 

That would mean that apple would have actually been making windows boxes before Dell. The fact that Dell is a giant now has little relavence here. The fact that this IT guy or that has large corporate accounts is also meaningless because the question being asked cannot be answered in the context of what we know today. In this senerio, apple would have the upper hand on companies like Dell because of a longer history. 

If we take your response for what it says, it would appear that you are assuming again that Dell was a company born with large corporate accounts as its first customers. This is simply not true ironmac.

I know this must be putting extreme stress on your imagination, but try ironmac its fun. You seem to always be hung up on what you know today and that seems to always stop you from imaginig your future. You cant seem to be able to take information and extrapolate it forward or backward. You have very little reasoning power. Any idiot can sit in front of a computer monitor and read a number like 450 million and realize that that number is bigger than 30 million. As an expert, you are supposed to be able to think out of the box.

Sony is not an IT company. Sony is a huge player in the home electronics and Entertainment biz. Sony has small interests in the IT industry when compared to its other interests. Sony's interest in IT is as an addition to thier home electronics. They do have some interests in areas like multimedia, but lets not get in a tail spin over this as it should be clear especially for an EXPERT that sony is not an IT company.

Apple is an IT company. It was born and raised on IT. Everything apple has done at least for the last 25 years or so has been centered on IT. Apple has received more awards for technology and design achievements in the IT industry than Dell, HP, Gateway and sony put togeather. Apple has always been known for its inovative leadership. Apple has brought many firsts to the IT world or adopted technology that would become a standard long before most of thier competitors. 

In order to answer the question ironmac, you would have to take the little knowledge you are equipped with today and extrapolate it back to help fill in the blanks. Instead of assuming apple would have been some huge multi billion dollar home electronics company that dabbled in IT and made windows boxes before companies like Dell, I was hoping that you could at least fill this blank in correctly.

To take the question I asked and come up with an answer like sony all on your own proves to me that you really dont know what you are talking about. You are so lost in your huge windows world that you cant seem to find the door even if you wanted to get out.

Isnt it funny how it is becoming easier and easier to take the boots to the so called experts these days. You can blame that on the internet.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

ironmac?

"Second, because they would not have a longer history than the other companies they would all be starting from a level playing field in the sense that they have an OS and they will have to build a box around it."

Now this makes a little sense iron. The longer history was in reference to your comment that apple would not be another Dell because Dell is so big. Really? You post comments and then run from them as if you never posted them. 

The question was, where would apple be today if they were building hardware for windows from the begining. Your reply was that they would be a sony which is not even an IT company. How smart is that? You also said they would not be another Dell because Dell is so big that it would crush apple. The quote above makes an effort at being more reasonable as you are now agreeing that they would be on an even playing field so to speak. Which is the fact I was intending to rub your nose into when I pointed out the the state of affairs as we know them today have little relevence to the question asked. 

Where in any of my previous posts have I said that apple would be on top because they would be given preference? Please quote what ever it is that makes your brain misfire that way and I will try and correct it.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

Ok, let's get this straight: the question is, where would Apple be today if they were building hardware for Windows from the very beginning? No more of your twisting around...no going back and forth...no obfuscation ok?

A. The very beginning would be from Windows 1.0, NOT from your claim that Apple would have been in IT for the last 25 years.

B. Since Apple and every other hardware manufacturer would be starting from that one beginning they would all have to build boxes around Windows 1.0.

Where would Apple be? That's impossible to know. You can speculate that there is something innately different about Apple that would let it gain 20 or 30 percent market share but that's just speculation. 

You can't say that just because Apple's been in IT for 25 years that it will have an advantage. If Apple and all of the other companies are using MS operating systems then that is where they have to start competing from-from a single baseline OS.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

what are you guys even talking about? 

synopsis welcome.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

I had to Bump this thread... 100 posts!


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

ironmac?
The exercise was meant to show the importance of software. In this case the importance of which OS software is more prevalent and how that speeds success. You seem to be unable to grasp that concept. 

In this scenario, apple would have the upper hand on companies like dell because they were simply in the IT biz longer. That's it! This may or may not be a big upper hand, but they are unlikely to be crushed by another upstart. The fact that dell is a giant in the windows world today has no bearing to the question asked. 

I could have just as easily asked what dell would be like today if they were not a windows box maker. The answer would be the same or similar. They would have met with less success because of a lack of support for the dominating OS of the day. I asked the question the way I did because I wanted to see what our fine-feathered friend would say. His answer was quite predictable. 

The same will hold true if a unix OS is able to dethrone M$. Companies and technology that are aligned with unix or linux as you would have it, will gain. Some will gain more than others, but all stand to improve their present position. It is a simple law of economics. It is not something you will be able to definitively prove at this point because it has not happened yet. The same holds true for you to prove the opposite. Cant be done. 

After saying that, you would have to be baking half a loaf not to see that if Linux becomes the new OS of the day, that things are not about to change. And you would have to be baking somewhat less than half a loaf to think that Linux would be able to take 100% control of something like open source. The main reason M$ was able to almost do it was because of something called monopoly and the fact that it was a closed OS. Open source is hopefully about to change all of that.

The argument has never been based on apple making cheap hardware or an intel verion of their OS. Your assumptions that those are the reasons no one will use mac are weak at best and could easily be corrected if apple wanted to do just that. It would probably come down to a questionn of economics for them and they would likely have other options to consider aswell.

Out of respect to bloodyface's comment, I agree this debate has taken a wide curve. So with that in mind I will come closer to home. 
Are we seeing more macs? Yup!
Will we see more macs if M$ is replaces by a unix OS? Most definitely. 

Prove otherwise ironmac!


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## electricjeezus (Feb 28, 2004)

My G4 400 just turned 4 years old, and other than lusting for a new G5, there is absolutely no reason I need to upgrade yet. With Panther, and 704MB of ram, my computer feels faster now than it did when I bought it with OS 9 4 years ago. I use Photoshop, Maya, Digital Performer and about 65 other apps without a hitch, or hiccup. Sure if I get the latest G5, my render waits in Photoshop,Maya and Digital Performer will decrease, so what! (ooh I've shaved seconds off that Photoshop filter)
It just seems the people that feel they need a faster machine every couple of years, are PC users, who just use the net. I know several of these people.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

LOL!!! You obviously do NOT understand or do not read any of the posts and think them through. How can Apple, even if they are in the biz longer than Dell, have an upper hand when they are all using the same OS introduced at the same time? You don't even bother answering that question...you simply go out and say that Apple will have the upper hand because they've been in the biz longer. If that is not blind faith, then I don't know what is!









You also totally ignore what happens if and when Linux advances in the MS marketplace (ironically, you're the one with all the Linux deployments), you never mention how will OS X flourish. You just assume that it will. Sheesh!

And in spite of facts to the contrary you also ignore that Linux is not Unix and vice versa. It would be more correct to say that MS is being displaced by Linux...if you can't say that then I suggest you read (again and again to get the point) those articles you've linked.

Are we seeing more Macs? If you're blinded by faith you will see anything you want to see.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

Here are couple of interesting articles that I've just found that backs up what I've been saying all along, Linux is eating away at both Windows and Unix installs.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,115011,00.asp

Oh, and another survey that backs up an earlier one that I've linked.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,113864,00.asp


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Can you tell me the Year and month dell entered the computer market? I might be wrong but I thought it was after apple did. This was said in the context of your comment that dell would crush apple. Again, as I have already said the size of dell has no meaning regarding the question asked. Apple would have the upper hand if they were in the market longer simply because of market position. If you are in the market before a competitor, usually it means that the new competitor has to play catch up and is usually not in a position as a new startup to crush its competitors. The emphysis is not on apple having the upper hand, but that dell would not be in a position to crush anyone as you were trying to indicate.

Apple will do much better if M$(closed technology) is replaced by a unix type OS like linux (open source). This will mostly be in the form of that all important factor software development. Open source will make it much easier for apple and others to join in on the software development party, which means they can actively pursure markets that were once closed to them in addition to having the chance to develop better software solution for those markets. This is not possible under the weight of M$.

The articles you pointed to were interesting and are becoming almost trend like (sounds familiar), but do not lend proof to anything you are saying.

"For Dan Ryan, manager of infrastructure and desktop management with the City of Calgary, TCO was part of what made Linux a clear winner to replace aging Unix machines. For example, those who work in the Unix environment find Linux an easy learn"

Do you notice the part about if you already know unix, linux is an easy learn. And they are replacing aging unix machines. It could also be that one day they will be replacing aging linux machines for a different flavour of unix. What a cool concept.

As I have already said, this is not a threat and should be expected as the natural course of what I am talking about. 

One for all and all for one is how the saying goes. Prove otherwise ironmac?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

We keep going around this and I don't think you are reading my posts but once again (for the third or fourth time): If Apple does not have its own OS (according to your premise) but had to use MS Windows then both Dell and Apple would have to use MS Windows 1.0 (Or whichever version) as it comes out. It will NOT matter that Apple would have been in the market longer would it? They both start with the same OS when it is released. If you can't get that through your head then I don't know what will.









Second, if we were to even take your sort of "logic" then IBM would be top dog right now because it's been in the IT market even longer than Apple!

As for the software porting argument, we've already gone over that before and it still doesn't make sense.

As for Unix being replaced by Linux machines, why would they even bother going to a more expensive Unix version (after those Linux machines die) when they could get Linux on the cheap? Is that even realistic? If you think that is then you obviously have no clue about economics.

Calgary had their chance to replace Unix with OS X and they didn't. If you can't deal with the reality of that decision, tough.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

A. Let's go back to my post of Feb. 27th. I've already stated there that you can't know what would happen. I did not state Dell would crush Apple. READ please.

B. You keep talking about Unix and Linux but you never answer my questions. Questions such as:

"As for Unix being replaced by Linux machines, why would they even bother going to a more expensive Unix version (after those Linux machines die) when they could get Linux on the cheap? Is that even realistic? "

BTW, Unix is not Open Source. I suggest you do more research before embarassing yourself further.

You seem fixated on the demise of MS and this blinds you to everything else.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

ironmac? You must be kidding!

the doo doo bird reads:

"As for Dell or HP/Compaq, let's get real, Dell would crush anyone like Apple or make their market share so insignificant that it's not worth counting. Same goes with HP/Compaq because of their corporate accounts. I suggest you re-read my earlier post."

What the *@#$ does that say iron?! Here it is again.

"As for Dell or HP/Compaq, let's get real, Dell would crush anyone like Apple or make their market share so insignificant that it's not worth counting. Same goes with HP/Compaq because of their corporate accounts. I suggest you re-read my earlier post."

First it was your mouth now your fingers are doing it too! Imagine! your fingers are typing things without your consent. Puts a whole new spin on your all thumbs.

Fun aside iron, you are just making blind assumptions again. Time for a pulse check. No one can really say what things will look like if M$ loses the faithful. You keep spinning around facts you know are true today. IBM is using what they know will get the job done today. They are taking the fight to M$ with pricing. As I have said before, it will be very hard for M$ to maintain their present market position if they have to compete with free. 

Who know what will come if and when IBM is able to sink M$ with linux. It is very possible that the pricing structures IBM uses today will be updated for tomorrow. Nothing is carved in stone ironmac. The price is right today for obvious reasons. Dont kid yourself, IBM wont leave $$$ on the table if they dont have to. 

The thing you are fighting to figure out is much more complex then it appears. It is not as simple as just typing "an ever shrinking crowd of cool people" or "I will ask my g/f". The first thing you need to come to grips with is that things will be so vastly different if M$ drops out. 

There were a couple of good articles on macsurfer for Tues march 2nd. One was osviews take on how apple could use the iPod and its alliance with HP to deliver intel versions of macOSX without stepping on the toes of M$. This is the kind of thing that your assumptions dont take into account. Who knows if apple will go that route just yet. Maybe they will and maybe they wont. Or maybe they will wait a little bit longer before they strike. Linux is a competitor but not a threat in the sense that M$ is a threat.

Keep it coming ironmac! It's been fun.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Obviously your head is so small nothing else seems to fit. For the fourth time, apple would not likely be crushed by another upstart. Your post stated that if apple made windows boxes from the begining, they would not be like dell as dell would crush them. I will repeat what I have just typed above. Apple would not likely be crushed by a new upstart such as dell in the given scenario. 

I am not sure exactly when dell came on the scene, but I had the impression that they were not around from the very begining. If this were true, then apple would have been making windows boxes before dell. It does not really matter anyway because your point was that dell would crush apple even if they were starting out at the same time. That is about as idiotic as the rest of your argument. 

Anyway ironmac?! The question was not about who was first, but about the importance of software. In this case system software. The line between this and the windows/unix argument is that if windows is replaced by a unix OS, then unix type systems will be able to grow in the same fashion that windows grew. There will be competition as always, but at least that competition will be healthy and based on open source development. In todays world no one but M$ has access to certain markets because of its closed software and a near monopoly. This was their marketing strategy and they deployed it very well. Hopefully a new day is comming.

Again you are making a dead man's assumption. Who knows what the IT industry will look like if windows fades away. Again you are assuming that apple will only be an expensive box with nothing to offer. If linux is able to dethrone M$ things will look very different. New opportunities will arise. 

Look at all the debate today about "should apple port other apps like iLife to windows". There could be a time when this move could actually make sense. Like for example if M$ starts to see weakness in the home computer space. I said "if" ironmac. Apple could offer a windows version of iLife to lure people that are planning on jumping ship. Get the home user to center his digital life on the iapps and apple becomes a very strong option for this guys next computer buy if he is thinking of migrating completely away from windows and looking for a unix type OS. There would be numerous options for apple if M$ loses importance. But compare this scenario to todays world, you have little chance to compete because of a monopoly with closed software. 

Is this not what your famous IDC reports tell you. Are they not showing you that yes indeed, a lot of people are still buying windows systems. Monopoly! If this closed monopoly fades, what should happen if it is replaced with an more open design? Its All that market share point stuff you have been talking about ironmac. 

Surely you dont think that apple could survive the pressures of this M$ monopoly only to die under an open source world. What will you do with all that apple stock? Look for the next ever shrinking group of cool companies I guess!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

That quote you throw up was in answer to this from you:

" _The question here is what would apples market share look like today if it was just another windows box maker?_ 

Now think this over ironmac, because this is an important point to grasp. 

Just for fun, lets remove the OS out of the argument. In other words, forget that apple makes its own OS. Lets say that they are another company like Dell, HP or Gateway making hardware that is sold to the enduser with windows installed. This would mean that over the years, all of the products they have released have been for M$ windows. Things like the newton, imac, ipod, powerbook... you get the idea. "

*You completely ignore the following post:* 

"Ok, let's get this straight: the question is, where would Apple be today if they were building hardware for Windows from the very beginning? No more of your twisting around...no going back and forth...no obfuscation ok?

A. The very beginning would be from Windows 1.0, NOT from your claim that Apple would have been in IT for the last 25 years.

B. Since Apple and every other hardware manufacturer would be starting from that one beginning they would all have to build boxes around Windows 1.0.

Where would Apple be? That's impossible to know. You can speculate that there is something innately different about Apple that would let it gain 20 or 30 percent market share but that's just speculation. "

*It's one thing to make mistakes but you are deliberately twisting things around and quoting out of context.* 

And your responses to tough questions such as:

"As for Unix being replaced by Linux machines, why would they even bother going to a more expensive Unix version (after those Linux machines die) when they could get Linux on the cheap? Is that even realistic? "

are hardly worthy of being called answers:

"Who know what will come if and when IBM is able to sink M$ with linux. It is very possible that the pricing structures IBM uses today will be updated for tomorrow. Nothing is carved in stone ironmac. The price is right today for obvious reasons. Dont kid yourself, IBM wont leave $$$ on the table if they dont have to. "

That's an answer?! That's more of an assumption that IBM will raise prices. Forget it, IBM will worry too much that someone else will do to them what IBM did to MS with Linux. And even if IBM did raise prices, where would that leave Apple?

They'd be facing the remnants of MS and a resurgent IBM who can undercut their prices. Let's see what sort of "answer" we get from you on that point.

[ March 05, 2004, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: IronMac ]


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

i think you two should get married....  you're both going to be 'Super Citizens' by the time this argument, err I mean 'discussion' is through.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

I don't think it's really been much of a discussion at all.


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

Um.....the original thing, about more Macs..?

I'm a relatively new switcher (about a year) although I have worked a bit with Macs at work over the years. I have followed a lot of the market share discussions with interest. Of course, you have to decide first which market you are discussing...total computer market, home users, scientific, general corporate etc etc. This is tough in any business and arguments can rage.

I have noticed a few interesting things though

First, I suspect Macs do remain useable longer for the general home user. This is an impression - no stats so don't shoot. This will have an influence on the installed base / user debate.

In any case, to share something with you. I travel to Denver a lot. We are driving the e-business strategy for a global company from Toronto, but the main data centre and development node is in Denver. We have a huge team of of very successful developers there: they are developing new software for us.

On my last trip I was doing a presentation to their top team: 7 very geeky folks. I pulled out my PB, woke it up, plugged it in and started PowerPoint. No reaction - usually I get a few...oh you're a Mac person comments.

There was an additional person there, VP of HR, who later asked me about the PB as she needs a new notebook. Before I could respond the geeks decended......and told her, in unison, that if she needs a new computer she should ...wait for it...get a Mac!

They all...without exception, have Macs at home and many have more than 1 iPod. Several use PB's at work.

I was surprised.

So then, back at the airport, I am tapping out my notes and the guy next to me whips out a G4 iBook......and the guy opposite wipes us out with this monster 17" PB.

I know, I know....a lot of coincidental things. But it felt good....


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

BF you have a gift for the one-liner!!


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac?

I should start by saying please do not hit the keys of your keyboard so hard. Taking your frustrations out on your pc will solve nothing. It is not the keyboards fault you put up a weak argument.

What are you going on about? You stated that apple would be more like a sony if it were making windows boxes and that it would not be like dell as dell is too big and would crush apple. I replied that your response was anticipated as it seems to be a common belief among windows users (its been said in certain circles before). I also pointed out that sony is not even an IT company and that the size of dell has little weight regarding the previously mentioned question.

Your suggestion is idiotic at best and you should Get over it already! I am sure it is not the first time this year that you will have had to do so.

Regardless of when dell came on the scene or who was first, the exercise was to demonstrate the importance of compatibility with what ever becomes the prevailing system software. The connection here is that dell and companies like them have succeeded to the extent that they have largely on the back of M$. If M$ is replaced by a unix type OS, systems and technology that support this new OS will benefit in the same fashion. Some will lead and some will follow, but all will benefit.

And no, IBM upping the price of linux in the future is not an answer, it is all that has to be said after your lose lipped assumptions. I should believe that you have a crystal ball? You are implying that because IBM is laying the boots to M$ with pricing today that the story is carved in stone for ever and ever and we can all go home now because ironmac has just revealed the future? You simply cant state that there will be less macs tomorrow or any other day of the week just because M$ has a bloody nose.

It is hard to tell where exactly you got your schooling, but I can let you in on a little business tip. The object of the game is to make money. If IBM gives M$ the slip (that could be a big IF) It is unlikely to leave any sizable corporate profit behind if it does not have to do so. That could mean any number of things including pricing schemes. Another little tip of news. At the moment and likely well into the future, IBM makes money when apple sells computers. Its called PPC and it is all about relationships. Ask your g/f iron, she is likely to have an angle on this.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

A. Your idea that if MS is replaced by a Unix type OS then all will benefit doesn't hold water. It all depends on what OS is the replacement. You've said that Unix (in the form of OS X) will benefit if Linux moves in but there is nothing to show that it will. None of your examples shows that OS X benefits when Linux moves in. *NONE* 

B. A little economics tip for you...in any market, if there is any hint that there is money to be made, competition will move in. To make this understandable even for you, let's say that IBM is charging Company X for a Linux server and they are only charging for the cost of hardware and nothing for the Linux distribution and, then, MS exits that market. IBM thinks great(!), we can now charge for the hardware and Linux distro. Well, no, Dell (or another company) will see that and move in with a price of only a hardware product and nothing for the Linux distro.

I may not have a crystal ball but I know a lot more about economics than you do it seems.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Just so you know... in the corporate world... "free" equates to NO value. Companies rarely give away anything... a loss leader is just that... a loss and it is not good business.

Any companies that give away a "free" anything has to make money somewhere from that as the customer will not perceive any value in it. It goes like this... If I pay for something I value it, I've worked for that thing and it is mine. If I get something for free I am less likely to value it as I have invested nothing in getting it in the first place... This is Business 101

What's missing from this arguement is that IBM, while they may give the initial license away for free... they will most likely charge their corporate customers annual maintenance (usually 15-20% on the list price of the number of seats) as part of the deal. As well future upgrades (when the initial license was free) are rarely free as well. 

Also IBM will make PSO dollars off of any training and installation.

Just wanted you guys to have a picture of the real world.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

da jonesy:

I think you're talking more Psychology 101 than Business 101. As a company, if I get a free product then that's great, the accountants don't have to worry about expensing, depreciating or amortizing it. It's simply there.

No one is denying that IBM is making money off their Linux offerings elsewhere..whether it's in hardware (unlikely) or in services and support (highly likely).


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

Yes but usually those people who are more adept at Business 101 know something of/or have taken Psychology 101


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac?

"I may not have a crystal ball but I know a lot more about economics than you do it seems."

This is coming from a guy who just learned what unix is and spends his time investing in companies he sees as an ever shrinking crowd of cool people. 

The sign on the door reads. "Ironmac? IT XPert/business consultant. This gets funnier all the time.

In terms of providing examples of how OSX could grow with the fall of M$, I suggest you go back and read the earlier posts. Or continue reading here for the same satisfaction. For the most part though, I have said it over and over and will say it again. The end of this story has not been written yet. We will have to wait and see if and to what extent M$ falls. On the flip side. What have you offered up as examples that the mac platform will die at the hands of another unix OS? 

In terms of your economics consultation! I hope you weren't planning on charging for that. Isn't worth much. Over simplifying everything is easy, but wont get you very far. 

If you go back and read my last couple of posts, the underlying message is that things will look very different without M$. As I have already said, IBM wont be leaving $$$ on the table IF IT DOES NOT HAVE TO DO SO! As far as pricing goes, here is another little tip for you. IBM is not known for cheap hardware. So how do they do it iron? On your last point, who said that dell or anyone else for that matter wont be able to play the same game? The point is that it will be a unix OS at the front of it all. This is something you don't seem to get. 

Software iron!. It all revolves around software. With M$ in control, companies like apple are locked out of whole segments of the computer market. You remember IDC don't you iron? If M$ is replaced by unix, (this is important) companies like apple will at least be able to make software solutions that can compete for market share. And apple has been known to make interesting software solutions. This would be a huge improvement to what apple has to deal with today. 

What about future version of OSX iron? Could they be more linux friendly or even more linux like? And if M$ drops out, what will happen to the education sector Mr. jet set consultant? Educators are not likely to stick around any longer then the next guy. If the trend becomes a unix one, I would think that apple stands to gain back a lot of that ground lost over the years. Not all of it, but likely a lot of it. Just the education market alone would mean a lot more macs (unix)! And what if apple releases a windows version of iLife as M$ starts to run out of steam? And what if apple ties an x86 version of mac OSX to the iPod? In case you have not noticed, these are examples of how OSX could grow in a unix world.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

_This is coming from a guy who just learned what unix is _ 

A. At least I know what Linux and Unix are...unlike some who keep confusing them..even after repeated posts.  

_In terms of providing examples of how OSX could grow with the fall of M$, I suggest you go back and read the earlier posts._ 

B. Uhhh...you haven't shown that OS X would grow with the fall of MS. You've only shown increasing Linux growth.

_What have you offered up as examples that the mac platform will die at the hands of another unix OS?_ 

C. I haven't. It's your examples that show that Linux is taking over the corporate desktop.
D. I've reinforced your articles by bringing up new articles that show that enterprises are becoming more and more interested in Linux installs. Neither one of us has shown that OS X is replacing Windows or Linux.

_As I have already said, IBM wont be leaving $$$ on the table IF IT DOES NOT HAVE TO DO SO! _ 

E. Ok, I will agree with that...but they won't be able to take any off because others will move in. So, your idea that they will charge more after MS is gone...pure fantasy.

_The point is that it will be a unix OS at the front of it all._ 

F. Still confused, eh?

_If M$ is replaced by unix,_ 

G. Still confused...

_With M$ in control, companies like apple are locked out of whole segments of the computer market._ 

H. Locked out? I don't think so...it all comes down to what value a software developer can bring to the table.

_If M$ is replaced by unix, (this is important) companies like apple will at least be able to make software solutions that can compete for market share._ 

I. Is MS is replaced by LINUX, then others will also be able to develop software solutions for market share. One of the beauties of Linux is that there are thousands of programmers (who may or may not be on a par with Apple's programmers) who will work on applications they consider worthwhile. No one company can compete against that. The growth of Linux against MS is proof of that.

_This would be a huge improvement to what apple has to deal with today._ 

J. Huge improvement? Maybe...maybe not.

_And what if apple releases a windows version of iLife as M$ starts to run out of steam? And what if apple ties an x86 version of mac OSX to the iPod? In case you have not noticed, these are examples of how OSX could grow in a unix world. _ 

K. Those are not examples of OS X growing in a Unix world. iLife for Windows? Sounds like a Windows world. x86 version of the iPod..already out...for Windows.

_And if M$ drops out, what will happen to the education sector Mr. jet set consultant? Educators are not likely to stick around any longer then the next guy. If the trend becomes a unix one,_ 

L. Linux one.  If the trend is a Linux one (what educator wouldn't like cheap hardware coupled with a free OS?) then maybe software will be developed for educational markets on the Linux platform. Where does Apple fit in there?


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac?

Have you fallen and bumped your head! Please explain to me by what measure you are considered an expert. An expert at what? It appears that you are full of nothing more then hot air and the stuff that would fall from the south end of a bull heading north. If this is a service you are being payed for, then well done ironmac!

The XPert reads
"BTW, Unix is not Open Source. I suggest you do more research before embarassing yourself further."

and then...

"A. At least I know what Linux and Unix are...unlike some who keep confusing them..even after repeated posts." 

I suggest you google up a few unix forums and voice your opinion there that they are neither unix or open source advocates and see what response you get. 

You can start by going here. It was pointed to by another member of this forum. Don't let the name fool you iron, the article is about bsd unix's. What a maroon! Still confused eh!

http://www.linux-mag.com/2003-12/bsd_01.html

And yes! It will still be a unix OS at the front of it all.

The XPert reads
"B. Uhhh...you haven't shown that OS X would grow with the fall of MS. You've only shown increasing Linux growth."

As I have already said several times, the market gains of linux are the natural course of what we are talking about. "The fall of M$". The rise of linux is not a threat, it should be expected if we are to see the end of a M$ monopoly. The result of this would hopefully be a healthier market based on open source technology where the enduser gets better service for fees payed. 

To show you proof that OSX will grow with the fall of M$, I would first need to borrow your crystal ball as M$ has not fallen yet. The examples I have given to date are not examples of how apple will grow with the fall of M$, but rather how apple could grow with the fall of M$. The difference here is that you are stuck in the world you know today, while I am looking at the possibilities of tomorrow. Any idiot can sit behind a monopoly the size of M$ and make all sorts of claims. This is exactly how you got suckered into this dead end argument of yours in the first place. Oh your story has changed slightly once you were brought up to speed on what an IDC report means, but your stupidity has not.

To put it in picture form for you iron, take the iPod as an example of what is being said here. Not more than a couple of years ago, I am sure you are the type that would have argued that it would be impossible for apple to make an mp3 player that would not only be a smash hit with the M$ faithful, but would put it in the #1 spot globally. I make this statement based on what I know of you. One just has to simply peruse the history of posts here with your name to see that there is little positive about apple in your view. Now fast forward back to today and read the future for me iron. Is it a lot of hot air? No. Is it a lot of bull? No. It is a fine mixture of both! 

The XPert reads
Will we see more OS X boxes? NO!

Again I ask. What have you offered as examples to back up this dead mans assumption!

The XPert reads 
"C. I haven't".

You can say that again! 

macjava reads
As I have already said, IBM wont be leaving $$$ on the table IF IT DOES NOT HAVE TO DO SO! 

This was said in connection to your assumption that apple will fail because of cheap hardware and free software. No one said that it would be an exclusive IBM deal. IBM was used as a reference as they are largely responsible for the assault on M$ today. They will not leave $$$ on the table if they do not have to do so, like any other corporate entity. It is a little premature to make assumptions on apple's future based on todays marketing strategies. Don't you think! The point is; cheap hardware and free software will likely mean something quite different following the supposed fall of M$. I can see why you need a crystal ball. You are unable to think in progressive steps. This would explain your investment strategy. Investing in companies you see as an ever shrinking group of cool people can not be seen as forward thinking. 

The XPert reads 
"H. Locked out? I don't think so...it all comes down to what value a software developer can bring to the table."

and

"I. Is MS is replaced by LINUX, then others will also be able to develop software solutions for market share. One of the beauties of Linux is that there are thousands of programmers (who may or may not be on a par with Apple's programmers) who will work on applications they consider worthwhile. No one company can compete against that. The growth of Linux against MS is proof of that."

These two statements conflict with each other. The first is an example of your level of ignorance on the topic of open vs closed OS's, and the second is essentially what I and others have been trying to tell you all along. A more open unix based world would allow anyone (apple included) to bring their software solutions to market. I have already pointed out to you that linux as strong as it is sure to get will not be able to control 100% of something like open source.

It might be safe to assume that M$ will, as a last ditch effort to compete, open itself up. This has already started to happen to a small degree. 

The XPert reads
"K. Those are not examples of OS X growing in a Unix world. iLife for Windows? Sounds like a Windows world. x86 version of the iPod..already out...for Windows".

iLife for windows is in reference to an earlier post. If what we are talking about becomes a reality and spreads to the home user, then iLife for windows could be a way for apple to attract users to the mac platform as they are exiting windows. This is not a debate about the windows world. Come on iron, you should be able to follow along better then that.

I know this thread has taken you a long way from the pictures of your dick and jane books, but I will try and put you on the same page just to help out your argument. The x86 version of OSX tied to the iPod is another example of how apple could grow market and mind share and is in reference to this article.

http://www.osviews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=942

If the link does not work for you, go to macsurfer march 2 and look for a link to osviews web site. Again, these are two examples of what tomorrow could look like.


The XPert reads 
"L. Linux one. If the trend is a Linux one (what educator wouldn't like cheap hardware coupled with a free OS?) then maybe software will be developed for educational markets on the Linux platform. Where does Apple fit in there"?

Good one iron. Your mother must have called you sunny because your so bright! I can just see all the educators wrestling with linux in the classroom. Other unix GUI's have come a long way, but they are not quite up to speed with OSX as far as user friendliness goes. Iron, these people need to be able to install network printers and applications with mouse clicks. They are heavy users of the point and shot software. Simplicity means productivity to this crowd. In addition to all the teachers iron, the latest trend has it that even the kids are getting into using computers. If you couple this to that fact that apple already has a major presence in the education market, tools like power school and FileMaker, you would have to be a complete idiot (which may not be too far from the truth) not to realize that unless M$ can reverse the rising tide of unix, apple should see substantial gains in at least the education market.

Like I have already said. Keep em coming iron! Its getting stupid, but it's still fun walking you through the park.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

A. That link, while correcting me in terms of what is Open Source, still does not show that Linux is Unix and vice versa.

There's a line in that article that's particularly illuminating:

*MacOS X, while based on open source, isn't open source itself.* 

Even more tellingly:

*However, for MacOS X proper, there are many layers of proprietary software such as Cocoa, Quartz 2D, QuickTime, and OpenGL implementations for graphics, so you simply cannot download Gnu-Darwin and start running MacOS X on an x86 system.* 

Here's another doozy for you"

*Linux remains the open source operating system that most people still choose first.* 

Nothing you have shown says that you are *NOT* confusing Linux and Unix.

B. I think I will stand behind my earlier statement that you haven't shown how OS X would/could grow with the advent of Linux installs. As I've said before, nothing exists in a vacuum. With all of these Linux installs, can you show me where we are seeing OS X benefiting? Or will we still stick with your fantasies?

C. Tell me something, are we seeing more OS X boxes? Well, that's easily looked at:

Q1 2004 829,000 Mac units (up 12% from a year ago)
Q4 2003 787,000 Macs (up 7% from a year ago)
Q3 2003 771,000 Macs
Q2 2003 711,000 Macs
Q1 2003 743,000 Macs
Q4 2002 734,000 Macs

Now, Q4 to Q3 2003 numbers were all either down or about even from the year ago quarters. The last two quarters show an increase (for whatever reason). Given that one of the research firms has indicated that sales of PCs will be growing this year at 12%(I could be wrong here) Apple has to continue its last quarter growth in order to keep EVEN with PC sales. Can it do it? I don't think so because that 12% growth spurt in the last quarter is probably due to Xmas sales.
Now, if you want to get back into numbers, you can go back and read the old posts. It'll save you from embarassing yourself.

I'll be back later to correct you once more since I've got work to do.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

just popping in here for a sec between calls:

mac java, don't reply to the above post just yet because I'm not finished with it. Next up, we're probably going to analyze the iPod as Trojan Horse argument to see whether or not it is financially feasible. Remember, you can fantasize all you want to but it has to be reasonable..or else it's just blind faith.

BTW, mac java, you seem a bit hung on on the fact that I'm an analyst. Jealous or what? 
This might make you feel better...I have in my desk drawer an inch-high stack of articles from publications and websites that I've been quoted in, a few of them are:

Wired
New York Times
Light Reading
ITBusiness.ca
WirelessWeek

 

macnutt: which of us are you thinking of conceding the crown to?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Ironmac and Macjava...

What an interesting read! I'm lovin this stuff!  

As the ehmac citizen who was formerly known as the "long-winded-wordy-one-with-a-serious-axe-to-grind" I just have to say that I am ready to relinquish my crown.  

But I'm enjoying the ride. Please continue.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Ok, got a bit of time before making dinner:


_"A more open unix based world would allow anyone (apple included) to bring their software solutions to market. I have already pointed out to you that linux as strong as it is sure to get will not be able to control 100% of something like open source." _

A. You still haven't shown that people will develop solutions for both Linux and Mac OS X. Developers bring forth solutions to the OS that has the most end-users (customers). Even you must recognize that MS attracts developers because of this. Where is the incentive? 


_"iLife for windows is in reference to an earlier post. If what we are talking about becomes a reality and spreads to the home user, then iLife for windows could be a way for apple to attract users to the mac platform as they are exiting windows. This is not a debate about the windows world." _

B. iLife for windows is in reference to an earlier post? How much earlier because it was in the post right before. iLife for Windows is something that will not bring people over to OS X, it will simply allow people to stay in their Windows world.


_ "I know this thread has taken you a long way from the pictures of your dick and jane books, but I will try and put you on the same page just to help out your argument. The x86 version of OSX tied to the iPod is another example of how apple could grow market and mind share and is in reference to this article."

http://www.osviews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=942 _

C. Hrmmm...loading x86 version of OS X onto an iPod. Does this mean that Apple will add another $160 to the already high price of the iPod? Even if it was cheaper...Apple doesn't make money off of OS sales, they make money off of hardware sales. The margin on their computers is about 26%.
If I was a Windows user...and I had a computer at home...and I wanted to buy an iPod...would I go for one that was about $160 more but it had OS X or would I go for the one without OS X and save the $160?
As a Mac user, would I continue to buy Mac hardware or would I simply go to Intel? If that were the case, what do you think would happen to Apple's revenues? I can tell you one thing, $160 doesn't equate to 26% margin on a G5.

It's little details like that that you should consider before putting forth an idea.


_Other unix GUI's have come a long way, but they are not quite up to speed with OSX as far as user friendliness goes. Iron, these people need to be able to install network printers and applications with mouse clicks. They are heavy users of the point and shot software. Simplicity means productivity to this crowd. _


D. For now, if we all think about the progress that Linux has made in about ten years (without any real central decisionmaking) I'm pretty sure that simplicity will come along. That's not blind faith but simply looking at the trend.


_ In addition to all the teachers iron, the latest trend has it that even the kids are getting into using computers. If you couple this to that fact that apple already has a major presence in the education market, tools like power school and FileMaker, you would have to be a complete idiot (which may not be too far from the truth) not to realize that unless M$ can reverse the rising tide of unix, apple should see substantial gains in at least the education market. _

E. So, you've just realized that kids are now using computers? hahahaha







hahahahaha Kids have been using computers for years! Sheesh, talk about sheer ignorance!

As for gaining in the education market, let me tell you a story. A couple of years ago I went back for a high school reunion. I haven't been back in almost two decades. So, I went to the computer room to see how much things have changed. We used to be an all-Apple shop, rows of IIe machines everywhere.
It was a shock to see that almost all of the computers were now shoddy PCs...cheapo clones...there were only a couple of iMacs and a B&W. I asked what had happened and why didn't they stick with Apple?
The reply was that it was much simpler to maintain the Windows machines. If they had a virus infestation they simply wiped the drive(s) clean and if a part broke down, well, it was cheap and easy enough to simply swap them out.
So, from the horse's mouth, schools are looking for cheap cheap and cheap. 
What's cheaper than Linux on cheapo Intel machines? I'm not going to say that Apple will not retain a foothold in the education market but the latest news from Cupertino shows that they've got problems making any sort of headway. (and I've already provided a link to that story many posts ago)

You can show however many examples you want of how OS X can grow but without putting a bit of critical thinking towards those ideas...well, they're simply fantasies based on blind faith.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Now, let me put forth an idea that is certain to yank some chains. This is just a theory so feel free to flame it but within 10 years I think Apple will move away from making computers and OS X entirely.

It's going to become a digital media company and its main focus won't be on computers...it will be on digital content creation and management...you say that Apple will need computers to create and manage that content? Sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Apple will have to produce and OS and hardware to run that OS on.

Apple will solely focus on software...music, graphics, photography, anything that can be created and digitized, Apple will have its hands on. But you can kiss the G6 or whatever computers will be out (or not) goodbye.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac? Reads
"That link, while correcting me in terms of what is open source, still does not show that linux is unix"

Well I guess that settles it then doesn't it. Extra-Extra read all about it. Ironmac? could not find any pictures with big block letters stating linux is unix based! Do your parents know you are on the internet unsupervised? Oh yah I forgot... your an analyst. Analyze this! In the early 90's a Finnish Uni student Linus Thorvalds, built a unix kernel just for fun and called it fittingly, linux. Your more punchy then a dummy sack full of hammer handles. You can get your fill at www.kernel.org but be warned there wont be a lot of pictures. You will have to take up reading. Still confused?

Ironmac? reads
"MacOSX, while based on open source, isn't open source itself."

and

"However, for MacOSX proper, there are many layers of proprietary software..."


You have in a round about way answered one of your earlier questions. That little nugget of gold you stumbled on is what mac brings to the table. You see iron, the story goes something like this; Apple use to have a proprietary OS that they developed a lot of neat software for, but now they have moved to a more mainstream open source OS and the new add goes something like: The stability of unix with the simplicity of mac. Being an analyst and all you probably have figured out what would happen to revenues if apple dumped their trademark on the open source communities. I think a certain softdrink salesman already did that favor for M$. And with that, I am upgrading your status to moron.

Ironmac? reads
"Nothing you have shown says that you are not confusing linux and unix".

What a maroon!

Ironmac? reads
"BTW, mac java, you seem a bit hung on... bla, bla, bla... I have in my desk draw an inch high..."

Is this the same analyst that just figured out how to read an IDC report, just realized that unix might be a threat to M$, cant tell the diff between unix and a peanut...

Yah I'm hung alright and I wonder what else you have that is an inch high? Your stupidity precedes eternally any credibility you make claims to by tooting your little horn. Why don't you put your picture up here while your at it. hey that could be a great new Jeopardy category. "I'll take famous boneheads for $500 Please". Do it for me please macnut. Crown him!


Ironmac? reads
"You still haven't shown that people will develop solutions for both linux and macOSX... Where is the incentive"

Being an analyst and all you have probably figured out that this is sort of central to the present state of the debate. Breaking out of a monopoly. Open source is in fact one of the leverage points apple (and others) can use to be more marketable. Applications built for linux can be ported to macOS and so on and so on... In the pre OSX days, apple had a very hard sell due to its limited market share under the weight of the M$ monopoly. This has changed considerably since the arrival of OSX and will continue to grow if M$ is silenced. Don't take my word for it Iron, have a google around some of the open source communities. Remember Iron! While you are pretending to be an analyst, the people responsible for decisions at companies like apple are making billions. You think a hick like you could stand in that crowd. Analyst!

Ironmac? reads
"iLife for windows... it will simply allow people to stay in their windows world"

Boy! You weren't joking when I called you an idiot. The debate here is what will happen if M$ fades! Even a lame analyst could figure that out. iLife for windows could be a way to win over more users if they were thinking of leaving the M$ platform for a unix OS. If a home user has centered his digital life around apples iapps (ie. photos, music, movies) and M$ loses sway, apple would be in a good position to make a switcher. Remember iron, we are talking about the "if M$ fades for a unix OS" debate. Users staying in a windows world is not an answer here. Idiot! This is simply an example of what could be. This is not a prediction. 


Ironmac? reads
"Hrmmm... I can tell you one thing, $160 doesn't equate to 26% margin on a G5"

Here's that crystal ball, I mean super analytical power. He even gives us a price with percentage points. Boy, let the bull slinging begin. Again. This is simply an example of what could be, and the guy that wrote it has at least some real credibility. Someone should call Jobs and tell him that his billion dollar iPod thingy wont go. Ironmac said so! I am sure he has heard of the famous analyst form T.O. that invests in ever shrinking cool companies. I can tell U one thing sunnybuck! Anyone buying an iPod (windows or otherwise) isn't thinking of a $5000.00 G5!
It's little details like that you should consider before opening your big mouth. Analyst!

Ironmac? reads
For now, if we all think about the progress that linux has made in about ten years... bla, bla, bla... talk about sheer ingnorance"!

You don't even know what unix is so who are you trying to fool about picking up on a trend. Kids using unix was criticism directed at you bonehead. Are you suggesting that Education should wait 10 years for a more suitable linux or that the analyst from T.O. has spoken and little Johnny is just going to have to configure that network printer or he can just dame well repeat this grade. 

If M$ fades, who is left holding the key for education. Apple! I would not suggest that it would be them and only them, but to suggest that they will be disposed of because of cheap hardware and your feelings that simplicity will come along would be well.... ironmac like. This is one area where your stupidity as an analyst really shines through! 

As he stuffs another gob of chewing tabac into his big mouth and spits on his shoe.... Ironmac reads. As for gaining in the education market, let me tell you a story.... bla, bla, bla...

The news from Cupertino is that the Q1 numbers are up because apple saw less of a decline in Education then their competitors. Good news actually for apple. Analyst! 
Find it here. 
www.macobserver.com/stockwatch/2003/09/03.1.shtml

This next one is one of my favorites. I might even call it a classic. It's a classic! There I said it.

Ironmac? reads
"Now, let me put forth an idea that is certain to yank some chains... bla, bla, bla..."

The only one yanking his chain here is you little spud! This one is so good that I thought to honor it I might donate a trophy in ironmacs name. A golden Mr. Potato head called the golden ironmac award to honor the dumbest analyst ever year. 
And the winner of this years golden ironmac award goes to.... you guessed it, king of the potato patch himself!
Ironmac? Analyst! 

Oh yah, don't forget Ironmac. Toot toot, your an analyst!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

Thanks for that www.kernel.org link because here's a line that you should read:

"Linux is a clone of the operating system Unix"

As I've said many times before and backed up by other articles and books, Linux is not Unix. Can you understand that or are you still confused? Sheesh.

As for the incentive to move over, you still have yet to show one. Why would someone port a Linux app over to OS X if they have a massive Linux audience already? On the other hand, if I, as Linux user wants to use that app (Linux), why would I spend thousands of dollars to move on over to OS X? Can you answer that question with something based on reason?

Your iLife for Windows argument...more fantasies, eh? If I have a great app like iLife for Windows...no need for me to move on over is there? The thing is, it will be more of an incentive for the user to stay on the Windows platform. What do you think will happen..Windows disappears and all that's left is iApps and Apple? Get real.


As for the guy who wrote about including OS X on the iPod...what credibility does he have if he can't crunch the numbers? Again, $160 does not equate to 26% margin on a G5. If you believe that you'd believe anything.

As for the education market, what do people want? Cheap hardware and simplicity! The cheap hardware is already there...we only have to wait for the simplicity. Apple's missing half the equation. Hey, I'm not the one making this up, at least I've talked to someone who makes the purchasing decision. You haven't so you're not credible.

BTW, your contention that Q1 2004 numbers are up because Apple saw less of a decline in Education...how can you back that up in a story from mid-2003? The story says that there is expected uptick, it does not attribute future growth specifically to Q1 2004 (last calendar quarter of 2003) to educational sales.

You'd be much better off if you apply the same amount of effort to critical thinking as you do to insulting people who don't agree with your viewpoints. Who knows, maybe you'd finally figure out that Linux is not Unix?


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac? reads

"Linux is a clone of the operating system Unix"

and

"As I've said many times before and backed up by other articles and books, Linux is not Unix. Can you understand that or are you still confused? Sheesh."

Now there is a real credible analyst talking! "backed up by other articles and books". Like which ones iron? I could point you to numerous unix/linux communities, but this is starting to get boring iron! 

I am not really sure what you are going on about. Your argument seems to have lost what little focus it had. Running out of wiggle room iron? Or is this analyst speak for "you don't know what to say next". Linux is unix based end of story. Get over it already! I believe myself and others have used the term "flavor of unix" many times before. Being an analyst and all, I am sure you know how to use a dictionary. Look up the word clone. "1b. One that appears to be a copy of an original form". As an analyst, what part of that don't you understand? Linux was built from the ground up on unix specs and standards!

The point here is that because macOSX is unix based, its market position can only improve if a M$ monopoly is replaced by another open source unix OS. That is IF iron! 
Here is a link on how open source could make companies like IBM more money especially if M$ becomes a thing of the past. www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3327101

ironmac? reads 

"As for the incentive to move over,..." 

First of all, the porting of open source apps to macOSX is already happening and in very large numbers. All you have to do is surf the open source communities to know this is real. You are either too ignorant to admit it, or too stupid to realize it, or both! Yet again, you are missing the fine lines that run between your narrow minded argument and what is reality. You leave out the most important "someone" to the mac platform. That someone is apple. Apple can participate in open source endeavors as well as promote their own software solutions. If what we debate becomes a reality and M$ bows to unix/linux (Lucky for you this is still a big if) then apple will be able to cater to a much larger audience as they too are a part of the unix open source world. This debate is less about macOSX grabbing users from the linux world and more about catching a percentage of the ones that might defect from M$. Sometimes it is hard to get the analyst in the crowd to follow along. 

Secondly, you don't have to spend thousands to move to OSX. There is a used mac market out there that is alive and well. In addition, you could also get a cheaper emac or ibook to get into OSX. Regardless, the price of apple today under a M$ monopoly would likely be different if M$ falls to a unix based world. Price wars are largely a numbers game. The more you make, the less you have to take. 

ironmac? reads

"Your iLife for Windows argument.."

Here is that potato head thing again iron. For the third time, the context of iLife for windows was based on the "if M$ starts to fade with the home user" argument. If the big trend becomes moving to a unix os making your next computer buy likely a unix powered one, then getting that user to center his digital life on apples iapps before he makes that move would increase the chances that macOSX will be the unix he moves to. In addition to that point, macOSX is more user friendly to the less computer savvy home user then linux is and could have additional appeal because of it. 
Know one said that if windows disappears all that will be left is apple and its iapps except you. So get real! This debate is about apples improved market position under unix and how they could capture a percentage of users leaving windows. Just a little number crunching for ya! Just 5% of M$ installed home user base would almost double apples present installed user base. Now what was the original question being asked in this thread? I cant remember now its been so long ago. 

ironmac? reads

"As for the guy who wrote about including OS X on the iPod...what credibility does he have..." 

Crunch numbers! The only thing crunching is your brain as your lower lip starts to flap. The article was about bundling the iPod/OSX with OEM hardware. As an analyst, you might have heard of the "buy a new PC and get a free printer and digital camera" type promotion. Maybe HP might think. Hey, because the iPod is so hot, it would be a great leader for new PC sales. The consumer might think. Holy potato head batman! I can buy a new HP desktop and get a free iPod... with x86 OSX! WOW! The price of the iPod could be lost in the price of the desktop itself. Or at least a large part of it. Maybe it would be a "buy these selected models and get an iPod with OSX for $99.99" type promotion. Who knows what could happen; the author simply noted the possibility of how OEM's could skirt the M$ death grip. One thing is certain, you are likely not even close to a country mile with your $160 this and 26% that bull chop. Analyst, shmanalyst! Lastly, the margin on an iPod has nothing to do with the margin on a G5. How many analyst's do you know walk into a shop and say, "lets see, I can get a $500 iPod or a $5000 G5!" I know it's a tough decision, they both play music and can store files. Analyst!

ironmac? reads 

"As for the education market, what do people want?..." 

If M$ fades, the price of apple today would likely change tomorrow. Numbers, numbers, numbers potato head. Just because you talked with someone at the elementary school you made it through means that apple is finished? The world according to ironmac. I can point you to some very big mac education clients if you like and you don't know me so don't make claims that you know who I have spoken to. 

ironmac reads

"BTW, your contention that Q1 2004 numbers are up..."

This is the link from Feb 26 2004 www.macobserver.com/article/2004/02/26.12.shtml


No matter how much stupidity you pile on top of this ironmac, you can't win that golden ironmac award more than once a year. I am afraid you will just have to wait for another chance next year. 

I have said it before and am afraid to say it again. Keep it coming iron, this is getting really stupid!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Totally fascinating! I'm learning quite a bit of stuff I didn't know...and enjoying the ride as well! 

As for the question of who gets the crown? I think we almost have a tie. You lads may just have to share the trophy. 

(no fighting over it though)


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

It's becoming increasingly clear that you actually don't read stuff that you post:

A. *Linux is a clone of the operating system Unix* 

That comes from the website that YOU linked to: www.kernel.org . Hello? Are you still confused over the question of what Linux is? It's a copy, it's NOT Unix.

B. You're still avoiding this question. *As for the incentive to move over, you still have yet to show one. Why would someone port a Linux app over to OS X if they have a massive Linux audience already? On the other hand, if I, as Linux user wants to use that app (Linux), why would I spend thousands of dollars to move on over to OS X? Can you answer that question with something based on reason?* 

Well?

C. _ Secondly, you don't have to spend thousands to move to OSX. There is a used mac market out there that is alive and well. In addition, you could also get a cheaper emac or ibook to get into OSX. Regardless, the price of apple today under a M$ monopoly would likely be different if M$ falls to a unix based world. Price wars are largely a numbers game. The more you make, the less you have to take. _

I have got to love this line...obviously you aren't aware that Macs seem to hold the line on used pricing. And you also seem to be unaware that Intel-based products are the one who benefit from your last line - _ The more you make, the less you have to take. _

It seems that most of your arguments simply turn around and bite you, just like all of those Linux deployment articles you keep bringing up.

D. Your iLife for Windows argument doesn't make any sense...like most of your other arguments. Having iLife for Windows simply makes it that much easier for Windows users to stay on that platform. How would that wean people off of the Windows platform? You think that people will say...gee, for my next computer...I'm going to switch on over to OS X at a premium price because of my experience with iLife for Windows. Does that make sense?

E. As for your OS X on an iPod argument. That's laughable. Here's a quote from an article that you should read:

_Sure, you could make an argument that the iPod is the Trojan horse that brings more people into the Mac universe, but it certainly doesn’t appear to be working. When you think about it, and compare it to Sony, there is no reason, and no evidence to believe, that someone who loves a particular gadget will buy that company’s computer. If that were the case Sony would be selling a lot more Viao’s. Sony is the king of electronic gadgets but it can’t sell large numbers of Viao’s no matter how hard it tries._ 

Here's the link:

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=466_0_1_0 

(It's only an opinion but both the writer and the posters make some very good points there.)

Tell me something, how can an OEM PC manufacturer make any sort of money when they bundle together an iPod and OS X? Their margins are thin on the PC and then they have to subsidize the price of the iPod and OS X? According to your argument, they certainly can't sell the iPod and OS X at retail because that won't be attractive.

This assumes, of course, that that MS allows the OEM PC guys to sell a machine with a competing OS. Sheesh, you show your ignorance of economics and business with every post it seems.

F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them.

G. Ahhh...more attempts at twisting facts around...let's have a look at your Q1 2004 link:

_This is the link from Feb 26 2004 ]

In the article, it says:

The report says declining sales in the K-12 market are to blame, this despite an actual increase in education market share as recently as the June quarter of 2003.  

Evidently, it does *NOT* refer to Q1 2004 does it because if it did, why would they bother firing people? That one line shows once again that you do not bother checking your facts and that you twist the facts around.

Critical thinking wins the day...not blind faith. Try to remember that._


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

ironmac?

It's becoming increasingly clear that you can't read! Hey moron! You mean to tell me that all along your point was that linux is a clone of unix and not unix itself? Yeh right, but it makes no difference! We are debating the merits of belonging to an open source movement as opposed to being on the outside of a M$ monopoly. 

The point here potato head is that linux is a flavor of unix, or is unix based, or is a clone of unix, or is built on unix specifications or...
The second point here potato head is that apple like other flavors of unix benefit form their open source roots and will continue to do so especially if a certain monopoly dies. Compare that to today. It is very hard to break into a market that is protected by proprietary software. The underlying point of why apple and others based on this open source will thrive if M$ gets the bomb. 

Your point being if M$ falls, linux would pose the same threat to apple as the M$ monopoly it left behind. My point was and still is that linux will be a competitor, but not a threat in the way that M$ is a threat. The debate is, will we see more macs if M$ is replaced by open source. Not; how will apple convert linux users? This is something you added along the way. So hold your breath iron, it has never been a point I have tried to make. My point is that Apple will do just fine if things become more open source. Ask yourself why M$ is not open source? Why does M$ use so many resources to keep things proprietary? Keeps the competition lower for one mr. potato head. I mean analyst. Sorry! 

As far as the porting goes iron, it is already happening. Like it or not. Open source was one of the driving forces behind apples decision to move to a unix based OS. Additionally, apple does not have to wait for someone to port an app, they can do that themselves. Analyst!

About your "it takes thousands to move to OSX." What does the cost of a used mac have to do with it. Your point was that you would have to spend thousands to move to mac. I am simply saying that you could go used and get into OSX for well below that. I hope you change your underware as often as you change your arguments! Intel has their own problems at the moment and the point I made about pricing wars is a continuation of the "if M$ falls". If that happened and apple sees growth, the more you make the less you have to take. Boy are you thick. 

Back to the iLife thing. Ok potaoto head, lets continue. You keep going on about how iLife would save windows. iLife is an example of how apple could simply win mind share. The debate is what if M$ falls to a unix type OS. We are not talking about users staying with windows here bonehead. We are debating what if M$ falls. You are suggesting that they will all go to linux. It is not likely that iLife would stop windows users from defecting as you put it to a unix type OS , if unix becomes the new trend. The example asks what unix type OS would the switcher choose if he was already a heavy iLife for windows user. Apple would have a good chance in this scenario. Having both unix and iLife moron! 

OSX/iPod was an example of how the OEM's could bypass M$ and the illegal tactics they are known for. If you could read, you would see that the author states that the one best equipped to do it is the least likely to. It is just an example of how M$ could be bypassed for mind and or market share. What I wanted to highlight to anyone listening was the BS that preceded from your corner. I mean you are the only idiot sorry, analyst I have met online, that can read an article like that and come up with $160 this and 26% of a G5 that. Really! What a fruit cake. What does the margin on a G5 have to do with an iPod promo bundled with a PC brand name computer?

ironmac? reads

"This assumes, of course, that M$ allows the OEM guys to sell a machine with a competing OS. Sheesh..."

That was the point of the article bonehead! How the OEM's could get around M$! Tell me something. How does powermax give a rioMP3 player and an epson photo 820 printer free with the purchase of a computer system. Analyst!

Education! Like your IDC interpretations, you are using false statements to support your failing argument. "Apple is not making headway in the education sector." This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months! If you continue to read, you will see that Anderson is quoted as saying that apple has not seen the same decline as its competitors. Apple is not alone in its struggle with this sector. Education budgets have been one of the hardest hit. Layoffs have been escalating in this area for a while now. Actually apple has for the most part avoided them until recently. 

Sorry potato head. If you were hoping to dazzle me with critical thinking, I am still waiting.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

_You mean to tell me that all along your point was that linux is a clone of unix and not unix itself?_ 

Oh my! You're the one who can't read! I made that assertion weeks ago and I've been making it ever since! LOL! Unbelievable!


_Compare that to today. It is very hard to break into a market that is protected by proprietary software._ 

I have a question about this, there really isn't anything to prevent a company from developing software for the Windows market is there? Sure, we have MS who doesn't offer up its OS to anyone but anyone can develop a program to run in Windows.
Same thing with Apple...you can develop a program to run in OS X and away you go. Or am I taking that line out of context because it seems pretty clear to me that it doesn't hold water. (Not that many of your assertions have held water before this anyways.)


_The debate is, will we see more macs if M$ is replaced by open source._ 

Ok, let's try this angle since you seem to be losing on all of the other ones. Will we see more OS X machines if MS loses. Well, current history doesn't seem to bear this out does it? I mean, look at all of those municipal Linux deployments...the ones where MS sends execs scurrying over to win the contracts. It definitely looks like MS is losing out to Linux but it doesn't mean that OS X steps in does it? Looks like that question is easily answered.


_About your "it takes thousands to move to OSX." What does the cost of a used mac have to do with it. Your point was that you would have to spend thousands to move to mac. I am simply saying that you could go used and get into OSX for well below that._ 

Are you blind? Didn't you read my answer to that idea? Here it is in bold just in case you miss it again:

*obviously you aren't aware that Macs seem to hold the line on used pricing* 


_You keep going on about how iLife would save windows. iLife is an example of how apple could simply win mind share._ 

No, I did not say that iLife for Windows will save MS. iLife for Windows will just mean less incentive for anyone to leave Windows.

Again, in bold:

*iLife for Windows simply makes it that much easier for Windows users to stay on that platform. How would that wean people off of the Windows platform? You think that people will say...gee, for my next computer...I'm going to switch on over to OS X at a premium price because of my experience with iLife for Windows. Does that make sense?* 

You really should try to read more carefully. Remember, MS is not going to disappear overnight and any great Windows programs will just mean more disincentive for a user to move off of that platform. If you're assuming that there's going to be some great big vacuum, forget it!

Once again, read this and try to answer it:

*Tell me something, how can an OEM PC manufacturer make any sort of money when they bundle together an iPod and OS X? Their margins are thin on the PC and then they have to subsidize the price of the iPod and OS X? According to your argument, they certainly can't sell the iPod and OS X at retail because that won't be attractive.* 

Adding to that is that Apple is not going to give away any product so the OEM PC guys will have to pay for any product giveaways. Can you answer the above question?


*"This assumes, of course, that M$ allows the OEM guys to sell a machine with a competing OS. Sheesh..."* 

_That was the point of the article bonehead! How the OEM's could get around M$!_ 

LOL! You seriously believe that MS is stupid enough to leave any sort of loophole to allow for their OEM guys to bundle in another OS? MS would simply pull the license of anyone who did this. Sheesh. Stop fantasizing...btw, what do you do anyways? It can't be business...school?


*F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them.* 

Are you trying to avoid the above question?


_This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months!_ 

Ok, prove it...show me a statement from Apple that says that they've seen increases in the education market between July 1, 2003 and Dec. 31, 2003. If it exists, it should be simple enough because they've released numbers up to the end of 2003.


_mr. potato head _ 

You mind growing up?


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac?

I am not agreeing with you on your view of what unix is or isn't potato head. I am saying yah right, as in you are so full it I can smell you from here. Your story has changed so often it is hard to keep up.

Ironmac reads

"1. Linux is freely available while unix is owned and sold by various companies.
2. Linux can be changed at will so long as you have the source code and proficiency to do so. With unix, well, I'd like to see you ask Apple for the source code, not sure if they would give it to you.
3. Along those lines, I believe the source code is also different between the two."

One just has to read the above to see that you are more familiar with a shovel then you are with unix.


Ironmac reads

"OK, first off, before I get down to the posts after my earlier post, according to "learning unix for mac OSX" I'm incorrect when I say that linux is not a variant of unix. In the preface, it says "other versions of unix such as linux." 

Good call potato head!

And then as if he is an authority that has just reach a decision allowing the rest of us to use the word unix and Linux in the same sentence. 

"I think we can safely say that the foundations of both linux and mac OSX are somewhat based on unix." 

Thank you for your wisdom oh great analyst!

And yet again.

"C. Hang on... the open source parts of apple that you're talking about (bear with me, I'm not familiar with GPL or open source)" 

YOU can say that again potato head!

The truth is ironmac, you don't have a clue. You have been shoveling your way through this from the beginning. Linux is no more or no less a unix based OS then mac OSX is. They are both based on unix. They are both a flavor of unix. They both support open source. And if we are lucky enough to break out of this M$ monopoly, they will both grow. 


Ironmac reads

"I have a question about this, there really isn't anything to prevent a company from developing software for the Windows market is there? Sure, we have MS who doesn't offer up its OS to anyone but anyone can develop a program to run in Windows. Same thing with Apple...you can develop a program to run in OS X and away you go."

I would say you raise more then a single question on this point. First your yapping how developers wont support OSX because of not enough users, and then you come out with things like the above statement. Out of all the words I can think of to describe you, this one seems to be the most civil. Idiot! We are talking about a monopoly and how companies on the outside of it have a harder time competing. It is hard to break into any market that is protected by a monopoly with proprietary software. We are not talking about how apple and IBM or anyone else for that matter can make apps for M$. We are debating the merits of belonging to a open source movement. Something you have already admitted you know little about. 


Ironmac reads

"obviously you aren't aware that Macs seem to hold the line on used pricing"

If you are under the impression that used macs cost as much as new macs, I would suggest you have your doctor review your medications. There are at least 2 desktops on this forum for $500 or less. I can point you to 800MHz ibooks for $700US as well as numerous other mac systems for under $1000. All of these systems will run OSX fine. You are just plain stupid if you believe it would take thousands to get into OSX. Again, more bull from the pro analyst. What does the fact that used macs being more expensive then used wintel pc's have to do with you stating that it would take thousands (as in multiple) to get into mac. Your statement is simply false. Like the rest of your argument. 


Ironmac reads

"iLife for Windows simply makes it that much easier for Windows users to stay on that platform. How would that wean people off of the Windows platform? You think that people will say...gee, for my next computer...I'm going to switch on over to OS X at a premium price because of my experience with iLife for Windows. Does that make sense?" 

As I have already said potato head. iLife for windows would not wean people from M$. It was used in the context if M$ started to see similar defections to unix in the home market. The question was not "would iLife wean people", but which unix os would a windows home user choose if he was already using iLife. Moron! If switching to unix became a trend for the home user as well, it is not likely a single app would change that. The question being asked was assuming that the home user has already made up his mind to switch. Moron!


Ironmac reads

"Tell me something, how can an OEM PC manufacturer make any sort of money when they bundle..."

Tell me something mr. analyst! How does powermax give away a free riomp3 player and epson printer with the purchase of a mac system. Go figure huh! I am glad you did not bring up that brilliant number crunching $160/26% analytical thingy again mr. potato head. That was one of your brightest moments as an analyst! That and the one where education should wait..., and the one where Apple will just make iapps..., and the one where...


"This assumes, of course, that M$ allows the OEM guys to sell a machine with a competing OS. Sheesh..." 

This might come as a surprise to you bonehead, but M$ was found guilty of breeching anti competitive laws. These practices are highly illegal and could deal a serious blow to M$ if they were found guilty of any future infractions. M$ while holding significant clout in the market is no longer at free will to make the types of demands it has in the past. Bundling an OS with a portable HD like an iPod would be out of reach for M$. Moron! 


ironmac reads

"Ok, prove it...show me a statement from Apple that says that they've seen increases in the education market between July 1, 2003 and Dec. 31, 2003. If it exists, it should be simple enough because they've released numbers up to the end of 2003."

Well if you would have said June 30th, I would have pasted this.

The report says declining sales in the K-12 market are to blame, this despite an actual increase in education market share as recently as the June quarter of 2003.
This is in keeping withcomments from Fred Anderson, who said that the June quarter's market share increase occurred because Apple's education sales declined less than the competition's.
Mr. Anderson said that the company's share of the education market rose to 16% during the June quarter, up from 15% the prior quarter. More importantly, from Apple's standpoint, the company claimed some 30% of the portable segment of the education market, up from 24% the prior year.

And this.

The report also notes that Apple has, alone among the major PC companies, heretofore avoided major layoffs. There's much more information in the full story, and we recommend it as a good report.


But since you said July 1, I wont bother. The point again is that you are simply full of it. Apple has seen recent growth in the Education market. There is very little substance to what you post. As I have said before, any idiot can hide behind a monopoly the size of M$ and make a bunch of remarks on the obvious and then lay claim to being an expert. Personally, I think you are watching way too much TV. Again closer to home. Are we seeing more macs? My answer is yes. There is a real trend towards OSX with people in my circle. And as I look around, I see that trend continuing in other areas as well. 

But don't take my word for it, here is another link to a similar story. 

www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3330611

So you wanted proof! Are we seeing more macs? Yep! But hey! Don't forget. Toot toot, your a analyst!


BTW, surely you don't think someone else would stoop to your level by tooting a horn just for recognition do you. No, there is only room for one ironmac/potato head on this forum, And you already won that prize. I will tell you though that education is not my bag. I will also tell you that I am not a unemployed wanabe analyst. 
Toot toot!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

my story changes? Hrmmm...let's see now:

_1. Linux is freely available while unix is owned and sold by various companies._ 

This is true.

_2. Linux can be changed at will so long as you have the source code and proficiency to do so. With unix, well, I'd like to see you ask Apple for the source code, not sure if they would give it to you._ 

This is also true to a certain degree.

_3. Along those lines, I believe the source code is also different between the two."_ 

Definitely true.

So, for those three, what were you trying to prove? That you can cut and paste?

_"OK, first off, before I get down to the posts after my earlier post, according to "learning unix for mac OSX" I'm incorrect when I say that linux is not a variant of unix. In the preface, it says "other versions of unix such as linux." _ 

Actually, according to another author, Linux is a variant of Unix. And others say that Linux is a clone of Unix...in fact from a website that you pointed out..remember? www.kernel.org

In fact, you're the one who is consistently confusing them. As in:

_Linux is unix based end of story._ 
_If the trend becomes a unix one,_


Now, let's try to get a handle on this one:

*"I have a question about this, there really isn't anything to prevent a company from developing software for the Windows market is there? Sure, we have MS who doesn't offer up its OS to anyone but anyone can develop a program to run in Windows. Same thing with Apple...you can develop a program to run in OS X and away you go."* 

_I would say you raise more then a single question on this point. First your yapping how developers wont support OSX because of not enough users, and then you come out with things like the above statement. Out of all the words I can think of to describe you, this one seems to be the most civil. Idiot! We are talking about a monopoly and how companies on the outside of it have a harder time competing. It is hard to break into any market that is protected by a monopoly with proprietary software. We are not talking about how apple and IBM or anyone else for that matter can make apps for M$. We are debating the merits of belonging to a open source movement. Something you have already admitted you know little about. _ 

The second paragraph, naturally, belongs to you. Ok, the question I'm asking you, from the above is what is stopping anyone from developing an app, either for Windows or OS X?
You keep going on about how great an open source movement is but you don't say how that applies to helping OS X?
BTW, have you read the Cathedral and the Bazaar yet?
And, when I think of Open Source, I think of primarily of OSes that I can easily and freely download and install. You can't do that with Windows and you can't do that with OS X.


_If you are under the impression that used macs cost as much as new macs, _ 

Where did I ever say that? It just seems that used Macs depreciate at a slower rate than PCs do. Your suggestion that anyone going over to OS X and to use old Macs does not preclude a business from spending thousands in order to do so.


Now, let's look at your statement here:

_then iLife for windows could be a way for apple to attract users to the mac platform as they are exiting windows. _ 

I understand what you're saying but you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. If you have iLife for Windows, it will only make the Windows platform that much more appealing. You're saying people are switching and I'm saying that iLife for Windows will only make it that much harder for people to switch. Think about it! Sheesh.

If Windows disappeared, yeah, sure, people may decide to go to OS X because it has a program that they like and use (iLife). But Windows won't disappear because of the very fact that iLife is there! If you can't figure this out..after all of this time...then, there's really no hope for you.


Oh...this is gonna be good:

_Tell me something mr. analyst! How does powermax give away a free riomp3 player and epson printer with the purchase of a mac system. _ 

A. the rio MP3 player is a refurb model at $39.95 and the epson printer..don't know which one but they're cheap.
B. The purchase of a Mac system, assuming that it's new:

$3000 retail price, the margin is, let's say a 10% cut for PowerMax...so, they get about $300. This easily covers the price of a refurb rio (they probably buy it for about $15 or less) and a refurb epson (more than likely).

Now, for a new HP, priciest one from their website is about $700.00

$700.00 retail price, the margin is, let's say 10% cut for HP...so, they get about $70.00.
Tell me something, at this point, how would they cover the price of an iPod?

You don't need a business background to see that they *CANNOT* .


And another good smack for you:

_Bundling an OS with a portable HD like an iPod would be out of reach for M$._ 

Well, we've already proven that the idea is economic suicide so it's a moot point. But, I'd like to see you go and show me Dell, HP, Compaq or any other OEM PC manufacturer bundling Linux in a Windows machine. Come on...prove it.

Oh...another good one:

Remember this statement of your's?

_ This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months! _

So, where's the proof? I thought I would make it easier for you if I said the last six months of 2003...why? well, if the first half was good then there may be some momentum in the second half..and because we all know that the financials are available for that time period. I didn't want you to go crying that you can't prove it because the financials for the first quarter of 2004 weren't available.

Instead, you want to worm out by saying:

_But since you said July 1, I wont bother. _ 

Hahahaha...that is sooooo pathetic! I mean, I don't expect a lot out of you but that is just so laughable!










Oh yeah, one more thing, are you still trying to avoid this question?

* F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them. *


Blind faith..that's all you've got.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac?

My intentions are always to be civil in debates like this. A good debate is one that usually invokes strong emotions as contrasting view points clash. It is never good policy or tact to have to constantly ridicule someone for their view points. Regardless of how weak their argument is. Obviously your stupidity has pushed me passed that threshold of resistance long ago. With each new post though, I am hopeful that you will respond with something that will relieve the need for ridicule. After reading your last post I can only say there is nothing new there. So in keeping with what has become tradition; you are truly an idiot without reason. Mr. Potato Head! 

Your points 1,2 & 3 are not examples of how your story keeps changing, but are rather good examples of how clueless you are regarding unix. I mean what is your point anyway. Even if it was from the beginning that linux is just a clone of unix, does it really mater? In the context of what we have been debating, how does linux being a clone of unix have any relevance? Have you ever heard the term "PC clone." It usually means a Taiwanese box of junk that can run the same OS and or software as the brand name PC. We have been debating the merits of belonging to an open source movement that revolves around unix. Again, it is a unix OS at the front of it all. As I have already said, linux is no more or no less a unix based OS then mac OSX is.

I still challenge you to visit any unix forums, linux or otherwise, and offer your suggestion there that its members are neither unix or open source advocates and see what response you get. You half baked potato head!

You keep using www.kernel.org as if it supports your claims or something. Do you feel the need for a pulse check iron? This is from that same site.

Linux is a clone of the operating system Unix, written from scratch by Linus Torvalds with assistance from a loosely-knit team of hackers across the Net. It aims towards POSIX and Single UNIX Specification compliance.

It has all the features you would expect in a modern fully-fledged Unix, including true multitasking, virtual memory, shared libraries, demand loading, shared copy-on-write executables, proper memory management, and TCP/IP networking.


Tell me something! What you been sniffing spud? It doesn't really mater though because your argument was awash after you posted this:

ironic reads
"It just occurred to me, enterprises that are going with Linux... For all we know, the linux desktop market share might be a lot bigger than anyone suspects." Is that the analyst talking?

I have news for you potato head, others have already suspected this! Analyst.

Funny though how you did not comment on the quotes that followed you first 3 points. Those were the examples of how your story has changed moron. Read them and weep.

Regarding your question about "what is stopping anyone from developing an app for OSX". As I have already indicated, your argument changes about every 2nd or 3rd post. The multiple personalities of ironmac? First you state "why would anyone develop or port apps to OSX". I believe your point was something to do with numbers. Now it is "why not". For the most part moron, the monopoly we have been talking about is what has been stopping most. Further more, what we have been debating is the possibilities of breaking out of that monopoly. This break out if it is ever fully realized, is what will benefit linux, OSX and others through open source. Get it! Moron!

ironmac reads
"And, when I think of Open Source"... bla, bla, bla...

Between you and your g/f, the two of you don't have a clue as to what open source is. I just had a scary thought. With the multiple personalities and all, maybe you are your g/f. Hey everyone, meet the twins!

Regarding the cost of macs. Your point was not that macs depreciate at a slower rate than PC's. As if it matters. Your argument was that know one would spend thousands to migrate to OSX because of iLife(home user). I stated that it does not have to take thousands to move to OSX. You followed with the macs hold the line on used pricing thing. It is hard to follow here iron. Who's point was this, yours or your g/f? Yah your a switcher alright.

Keeping with the iLife thing, you still cant follow along here. Go back and read all the previous post I made about iLife for windows. I think I should know what the intent was, I brought it up moron. iLife for windows was used as a possibility of how apple could grow mind share if M$ falls to linux. You asked how OSX moves in with the rise of linux. We are arguing about something that does not exist. At least not yet. I have said from the beginning that it was not a prediction, but simply an example of what could happen if M$ falls to a unix based OS. If you remember, I said there might be a time when releasing iLife for windows would make sence. The scenario allows for certain facts bonehead. Now follow along! If M$ falls to linux, apple could grow mind share if the M$ home user had already centered his/her digital life on apples iLife. This scenario could answer your question about how apple moves in with the rise of linux. This is an example. Get it! Unix switching Home user-multi media-digital life styles-iLife! Get it! Analyst. Know one suggested that M$ would disappear because of iLife moron. Again, the ticket here was if M$ starts to fade with the home user because of a unix OS. It was your question that provoked this example. Remember! "How does OSX move in with the rise of linux". Is it yours or your g/f iron? Quit wasting your pennies at that wanna be analyst school. To be a good analyst, you have to be able to follow along. 

On to the iPod bundle thing. If you would read the original article in question, you would see that its author is simply pointing out how apple could renew the war for desktop mind share. Anti trust is obviously something you have not had a chance to analyze yet. First we were given front row seats to your analytical expertise, followed by a few good examples of your skill at financial execution and now... moving on to law?

I don't have to go to HP's site to know that their most expensive Desktop is not $700.00. You are either suffering from anoxia due to elevation sickness or you are a fish out of water. either way you are not supplying your brain with enough oxygenated hemoglobin. The article was not about how some wanna be analyst could dream up a bunch of meaningless numbers, but how apple could harness the huge success of its iPod to capture more desktop mind share. Listening to you regurgitate elementary math is nothing less than amusing, but since you brought it up again, I will just add the following: The example provided you was that maybe HP or DELL would use it to promote their top of the line $2500 - 3000 dollar desktops. "Buy these selected models and get an iPod for only $99.99." I guess if your point was that you are capable of taking 10% of $700, then you have made it quite clear. Well done potato head! If only apple could afford an analyst like you.
I am still waiting for your first book "How to invest in ever shrinking but cool companies to maximize your loss" By ironmac and his g/f. As the iPod goes, it should be a great hit!

Education! I am not obligated to prove anything. You made a point that apple is not making head way in the education sector. This is simply false and it shows in my last post. It is no secret that all IT companies have experienced a real slowdown in this area due to gov. cuts and budget tightening. More bad news for you though. If you can get a hold a the march 19th edition of macuser, give it a read. I am not sure if you can get it over there as it is a twice monthly british mag. The news section in the front has a article on the cut backs apple has made in its education unit. The article goes on to read that according to IDC, apple saw 2.7% market share growth in education for the last 3 months of 2003. It does not say if this is referring to the UK, Europe, US or world wide. The point is your point is very slanted and untrue. 

Are we seeing more macs iron? Funny how you avoided this link altogether. After all, it is what we have been debating all this time. Must be analyst strategy for the lawyers "My client has no comment at this time." Here it is again for you spud! www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3330611 

The bunch of us make a great team don't you think? You guys and gals keep filling these pages with your stupidity and I will keep pointing it out to you. 

BTW.. How did those exams go?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

I didn't think that the word "civil" belonged in your vocabulary given the abundant evidence in your prior posts.  

Let's continue with tearing apart your arguments:


_if it was from the beginning that linux is just a clone of unix, does it really mater?_ 

Ahh...so you now admit that Linux is a clone of Unix. Finally!

Oh wait...looks like you're still confused.

_linux is no more or no less a unix based OS then mac OSX is._ 

Tell me something, why is it that people refer to OS X as Unix and others refer to Red Hat, Suse et al as Linux? I'll give you a clue...they don't have the same underpinnings! Sheesh!

Now, let's look at those three quotes that you refer to:

_Funny though how you did not comment on the quotes that followed you first 3 points. Those were the examples of how your story has changed moron. Read them and weep._ 

*"OK, first off, before I get down to the posts after my earlier post, according to "learning unix for mac OSX" I'm incorrect when I say that linux is not a variant of unix. In the preface, it says "other versions of unix such as linux."* 

That's from one book...another says something else entirely. At least, I do the research to try to back up what I post...unlike you.

*"I think we can safely say that the foundations of both linux and mac OSX are somewhat based on unix." * 

Linux is a clone..OS X is based on BSD. Sentence is still correct though vague.

*"C. Hang on... the open source parts of apple that you're talking about (bear with me, I'm not familiar with GPL or open source)" * 

And what are you trying to prove here? Once again, I make the effort of looking things up...this begs for more research.

As for avoiding questions...here's one that you've been avoiding for weeks now:

*You keep going on about how great an open source movement is but you don't say how that applies to helping OS X?* 

Now, as for the price of Macs...I never linked iLife and migrating to Macs together. Let's not go around falsely attributing things.

Now, read this line carefully again:

*Your suggestion that anyone going over to OS X and to use old Macs does not preclude a business from spending thousands in order to do so.* 

What sort of business is it that won't have to spend thousands, even if they were used, on moving over to OS X?

And you can't follow the simple argument that if Macs depreciate slowly then they would cost more? Hrmmm...

The next paragraph is a doozy and it shows that you don't understand much. Maybe it's my fault, maybe I should use monosyllabic words? hehehe Ok:

This is your statement:

_then iLife for windows could be a way for apple to attract users to the mac platform as they are exiting windows._ 

Now, if MS falls to Linux..how can this happens if you have iLife for Windows? iLife for Windows will simply make it that much harder for someone to move off of Windows. There has to be an incentive to move over and your example is basically a disincentive. Do you understand that concept?

No comment on my answering the Powermax question? hehehe

Now, let's go on with the HP/iPod example again. Here's an interesting comment from you:

_I don't have to go to HP's site to know that their most expensive Desktop is not $700.00._ 

This one-sentence shows how build up your arguments without making sure of your facts. Looking at HP's website:

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/cto/computer_customize_start.do

you will see that their most expensive computer is actually US$689.99 after rebate.

Obviously, this sentence of your's:

_The example provided you was that maybe HP or DELL would use it to promote their top of the line $2500 - 3000 dollar desktops._ 

is wrong wrong wrong!!! As I've already proven, HP does NOT have a US$3000 desktop! Good thing we don't trust what you say because it would mean buying into your so-called "reality". Or should I call it fantasy?

BTW, just in case, Apple's top of the line G5 is US$2999. Looks like I do my research doesn't it?

Oh...the following is a good one:

_Education! I am not obligated to prove anything. You made a point that apple is not making head way in the education sector. This is simply false and it shows in my last post._ 

Prove that this is simply false. I mean, you make statements like:

_ This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months! _

And, then, you say that you are not obligated to prove it? hahahahahaha If you can't prove it, don't say it. Sheesh...does that mean that you just make up things?

BTW, in response to your:

_The news section in the front has a article on the cut backs apple has made in its education unit. The article goes on to read that according to IDC, apple saw 2.7% market share growth in education for the last 3 months of 2003. It does not say if this is referring to the UK, Europe, US or world wide. The point is your point is very slanted and untrue. _ 

I checked the websites of IDC and MacUser UK and there is no mention of the above. Are you making the above up or did I simply miss the mention? Given your record, I would say the former, wouldn't you? 

As for my avoiding the link, no, but if you want a rebuttal, here is it. Just because Apple is making gains in one sector does not mean that we will see more Macs because of declines in other sectors. True, no?

Are you still avoiding this question? I mean, you haven't answered it in at least three posts:

*F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them. * 

Hey, keep on dreaming..it's nice but it won't save you from reality.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Hello potatohead and thanks for your latest and greatest. The light entertainment coming from your corner has at least provided a chuckle or two for a few of us stuck here in saudi. 

If linux is a clone of unix, and a clone is a copy of an original form, then you could say that linux is unix like. In fact, you could say it is unix based. It is a flavor of unix of which there are many. As I have already said, the point here potato head is that linux is a flavor of unix, or is unix based, or is a clone of unix, or is built on unix specifications, or... you are a half baked potatohead!

Here is another link with more of the same.

www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/8352708.htm
article reads.
"don't want to overstate the situation. I still think the best way for an average person to run Unix, the super-sturdy operating system on which Linux is based, on a personal computer is to buy a Macintosh from Apple. OS X has many capabilities that even the best versions of Linux can't match so far."


The point about clone or copy or flavor is of little consequence because the difference between what you think and what the rest of the real world knows regarding unix is not the central debate here. You have asked the question; how does unix and open source help OSX? I have pointed out the merits of belonging to a unix heritage and open source movement. Apple is able to do things now under OSX that it could never even have proposed under its classic OS. Not because their classic OS was not capable. It was more then a equivalent match for the M$ OS of the day. They could not achieve what they can now because they were a competing technology on the outside of a monopoly. The benefits and opportunities that can exist for OSX now are huge in comparison. This is one of the reasons why unix and open source have and will continue to been good for OSX. The only one confused here potatohead is you. You don't seem to know if you are coming or going.

Ironmac reads
"BTW, unix is not open source" What a moron! Oh excuse me, analyst!

Another example of what I just said, as well, it answers your question; why would someone port an app to OSX? Another one; why is open source good for OSX?

www.architosh.com/news/2004-04/2004c-0402-parasolid-osx.phtml

"We are pleased to offer Parasolid support for the ever increasing customer demand for 3D applications on Mac OS X," said Bruce Feldt, vice-president of PLM Open products, UGS PLM Solutions. "Open innovation is a strategic imperative for today's manufacturer and open solutions like Parasolid help enable this innovation. It is estimated that over 40 percent of the world's 3D CAD data is based on Parasolid's open data format and now Mac users and Mac-based application software developers will be able to link into this vast community."

"Apple Seeing Tremendous Growth in Science and High Performance (HPC) Computing Markets"

Here is an example of OSX reaching new markets because of its unix heritage and capable hardware that were previously out of reach for the mac OS.

www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3330611

I could go on all day, but I don't have to. I think it is more then obvious that there isn't an analyst within 100 miles of you and the palm sisters your dating.


The iLife thing. How stupid can you actually make yourself look on this forum. Do you really think that if linux breaks M$ that a single app will stop the bleeding? When I brought up the iLife thing, I mentioned that there might be a time when releasing iLife for windows would make sense. That time would be if M$ startes to see weakness with the home market. If the herd mentality becomes a move from windows to a unix os, it is unlikely that a single app like iLife or any others would stop that from happening. The scenario is describing the windows user that has decided to switch. Not the windows user that was going to switch and then realized he has iLife. I would like to upgrade your status to moron, but I cant. You are already there! Here is an example of someone that switched without iLife for windows.

www.theinquirer.net/?article=15143


mac pricing. 
Potatohead reads
"gee... for my next computer... I'm going to switch on over to OS X at a premium price because of my experience with iLife for Windows." If you did not say this then I suggest you ask one of your hands, I mean g/f!

My point is that it would not take thousands $$$ to switch to mac hardware and I don't care that used macs are more expensive than used pc's. The point is not a price comparison between used macs and pc's. It is simply that it would not take thousands to switch to mac hardware. It could, but it does not have to. You could also say the same thing for the pc world. You could spend thousands $$$ buying new gear if you wanted to. You don't have to, but you could. Moron/analyst/have baked potatohead.

Education. To answer your question, no you probably did not miss the mention. You just can't read. I told you to check out the March 19th edition of Macuser. Not check out their web site. Moron! "Macuser" as in the magazine bonehead. March 19th is a publication date. If you can get your sticky little hands on the March 19th edition of Macuser, you will see in black and white (that is the color of ink on paper) that they published a story regarding Apples layoffs in its education sector. The story goes on to read how despite this, apple actually saw an increase in market share for the last 3 months of 2003. As I have already said, I am not sure if this is a UK thing, Europe or other wise. I am just sending you a dozen dead roses with more bad news.

HP
Well I guess this kinda makes you the village idiot then doesn't it. This is about as lame an excuse for ignorance as I have ever seen. He calls this research! What a IDIOT! Looks like you will be needing to do a little more... research!!!


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 Where I come from, browsing the internet to look at computer prices would not be called research. It might be research to you, but for the rest of us, it falls under the having fun or wasting time category. You wouldn't know how to propose research, let alone conduct it. You are way out of your league here spud, so don't even venture into those waters. Its bad enough listening to you go on and on about what you think unix is.

In case you have not noticed potatohead, my efforts are less about debating the more macs issue and more about having you make an idiot of yourself here. You are not an authority on anything. You are just an idiot with an internet connection.

Tell me something. Why would anyone waste his time posing as a mac addict on a mac forum just to tell all those concerned that the mac is doomed. I mean, if M$ is so great and has 97% market share, while the mac is an ever shrinking crowd of cool people, why waste your time. Does a less then 3% and shrinking market share worry you that much? Or are you getting anxious because Apples new unix OS is a reason for concern.
Analyst. Toot toot.


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

**Macaholic runs out for a pee and more popcorn from the snack bar**


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=9224

At last week's Bio-IT World Conference + Expo in Boston, Apple representatives touted recent success in life science labs. Bud Tribble, Apple's vice president of software technology, said the company estimates that 35% of life scientists now use the Mac. He said this share should grow now that Apple has launched its Unix-compatible Mac OS X. New servers, new clustering capabilities and open-source technical software offerings will help further, Tribble said.

He also pointed to open-source infrastructure software, including Tomcat, Apache and JBoss, as newly available tools for the Mac community. "We're now Unix-based, which means we can leverage open source," Tribble said. This is most acute in the life science arena, he said, because most of the tools in genomics were created during "the open-source era."

Using Perl, MySQL and other open-source software, Sneddon built a system to log chemical and biological data into Genzyme's Discovery Database. This system began its life on an SGI Irix machine, moved to Linux and now runs on Mac OS X Server v. 10.2.

"Bringing data together is a lot easier on a Mac," said Sneddon.

After listening to Sneddon, it appears that bio-informatics may be a worthwhile arena for hardware vendors like Apple, but not so great a place for makers of commercial informatics software. "Shrink-wrapped informatics is for amateurs," said Sneddon, who trumpets open source as meeting his needs for software development.


www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=8373

Apple will offer developers a "week to look at absolutely everything", he explained, adding that an increasing number of new developers are coming to the platform. "Last year almost half the WWDC attendees were first-timers."

Information about attending WWDC is available here.

"We are seeing a growth in the number of developers attending WWDC from the Java, Unix, Linux and our traditional cross platform communities," Okamoto explained.

Continued success in the sci-tech markets is stimulating interest from developers beyond traditional sectors, underpinning Apple's move to introduce special sessions for enterprise developers at this year's event, Okamoto said.

"Since the news about Virginia Tech's cluster appeared, we have been hammered with requests from all different directions – government, education and private industry asking how they can do this," he said. "There are connections between the super-computing and enterprise IT areas," he confirmed.


As I have said before, any idiot can stand behind a monopoly the size of M$ and make a bunch of claims about the future. To sit in that chair is easy and requires little insight on the part of the fortune teller. What should be just as obvious though to the fortune teller , is the real change taking place in the IT industry. Will M$ fall? Maybe. To what degree? It is hard to know at this point. One thing seems almost certain though; M$ will likely soon be entering its first period of contraction. A big part of the M$ myth is the magnetism that exudes from any monopoly. That magnetism can take on many forms and in fact can appear in forms such as Ironmacs argument. If you can see through it though, the myth becomes less threatening.

I can not remember a time more than now, when using a mac or switching to a mac was as easy. The average user today can organize and sync calendars, compose word and powerpoint documents to be shared at the office, check email and brows the internet for computer prices all on a mac without even noticing what platform the other guy has. The gap is closing.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

Here we go again:

I suggest you read your own quotes (it's amazing how whatever you quote seems to hurt you)

_I still think the best way for an average person to run Unix, the super-sturdy operating system on which Linux is based, on a personal computer is to buy a Macintosh from Apple. OS X has many capabilities that even the best versions of Linux can't match so far_ 

Note the *run Unix* . Sheesh, two OSes that one is a copy of of. Get it? You're still oh sooooo confused!

Now for the porting argument: You bring up the example of Parasolid...ok, now, tell me does the quote indicate that people are going to move to Mac because of Parasolid support or does it mean that Mac users wanted Parasolid support?
*If the former then it helps increase the no. of Mac users but if the latter then it doesn't.* 


New markets?

_"Apple Seeing Tremendous Growth in Science and High Performance (HPC) Computing Markets"_ 

I don't think so, Macs have always been pretty heavily represented in science markets...not sure about HPC markets. You have to do better than that...let's see verifiable numbers.


Ahhh..let's see about twisting words and reading things that aren't there...oh wait, you're good at that fantasy sort of thing:

_you really think that if linux breaks M$ that a single app will stop the bleeding?_ 

Nope never said that. It will hinder the breakdown, though.


_I mentioned that there might be a time when releasing iLife for windows would make sense. That time would be if M$ startes to see weakness with the home market._ 

That makes absolute no sense..which is typical I guess for you. Why would you release a piece of software that makes Windows that much more attractive? Anyone with an ounce of business sense wouldn't do that!


_is simply that it would not take thousands to switch to mac hardware. _ 

Once again, you fail to read soooo many other times when that was in reference to an enterprise switching over! Try to follow the thread! I suggest you stop spitting at the monitor in order to read more clearly.


Now, as for education market. First of all, not everyone gets MacUser magazine here in Toronto. Second, if it is a news item you'd think it was on the website. In fact, I've checked both IDC's and MacUser magazines' website and there is no mention of a 2.7% increase in educational sales anywhere. Send us an url to prove it.

Hrmm...I guess we're still waiting for an answer to this question that you've been avoiding for the last *four* posts!

*F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them. * 


Now, on to HP:

_Well I guess this kinda makes you the village idiot then doesn't it. This is about as lame an excuse for ignorance as I have ever seen. He calls this research! What a IDIOT! Looks like you will be needing to do a little more... research!!!_ 

Yes, I did do a little more research...the most expensive HP Media Center PC ready to ship model is $1,499 with the lowest at $889.99. My mistake.

It's not the same thing as you deliberately twisting things by customizing a model to bring the price up to over 3 grand! That's not only pathetic but *dishonest* .


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

Now, for your latest post:

Good example with the Life sciences stuff but, is it enticing people to move over to the platform rather than having them stay there because it's attractive? And how big of a market is this?

Gotta love this sentence:

_The average user today can organize and sync calendars, compose word and powerpoint documents to be shared at the office, check email and brows the internet for computer prices all on a mac without even noticing what platform the other guy has._ 

Yes, but do you need a Mac to do all of that?

You're too blinded by faith to apply any sort of critical thinking.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Wow. For some reason I thought this thread would have died by now, I guess I was wrong.

Just one point, the most expensive Media Center PC is $2499 CDN. I didn't catch if you were talking in American dollars (I only really skimmed the page), apologies for the interruption if you were.

They also sell a bundle that goes for $3200.

http://www.hp.ca/products/static/mediapc/

IronMac is right though, comparing a custom configured machine to a ready-built machine is a little...er...specious.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Folks.... debate until the cows come home. But check the childish name calling and barbs at the door. 

ehMax


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

PosterBoy! welcome back. Your points are well taken, but lack all the facts probably due to the lack of interest it would take to read the long winded posts chronicled here.

The fact in question is that ironmac was trying to explain how a OEM could not bundle an iPod with a computer sale which was a point relating to an earlier post. His claim was due to not enough of a profit margin. He based this on a sub $700.00 system, as he also claims this is the most expensive computer HP sells. The example given him was quite different though, and was as follows:

"The example provided you was that maybe HP or DELL would use it to promote their top of the line $2500 - 3000 dollar desktops. "Buy these selected models and get an iPod for only $99.99."

First of all, a $700US system is not the most expensive that HP sells. Custom or not, HP is selling system bundles well over $3000. In fact you could add software and warrenty and come up with a figure in the $4000 range. These are system that are for sale on their web site and they are systems that could have a promo like, "buy one of these selected systems and get an iPod for only $99.00". Which is what I stated in the first place.

I did not suggest that HP would offer an $300 dollar iPod with a $700 computer system. That was just another one of irons assumptions. He promises dead men assume. I am still waiting.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

posterboy, we're talking about American pricing so we're at least on the same page.

mac java:

Let's go over the idea of an iPod sold along with OS X installed on it. And, let's not cheat by customizing a bundle.

First, though, even if you were to set up a bundle that's around US$2500 (which is nonexistent in any case because their top of the line bundle is $1499) how many Windows users are going to shell out that much? Very few I would think! At that level you might as well skip the whole process and get a brand new G5!

Second, let's look at the economics of your bundle. We will take the nonexistent US$2500 bundle and pair it with an iPod. Let's go with the cheapest model...US$299. Oh wait...it includes OS X so we have to add the price of that in too...US$129.00. So, we have a retail price of about US$430. But, let's say we get a special deal from Apple because this will spread the OS around. 50% margin...so HP will only pay $215.

Now, hardware margins are about 10%...the nonexistent US$2500 should yield HP about $250 in profit. Plus, the $99 from selling the iPod. So, their net profit is going to be about $134. Pretty good right? Well, hang on...stockholders (and...cough...analysts) don't look at simply dollar figures. Let's look at percentages.

HP spent $2250 on the computer bundle; they spent $215 on the iPod...total of $2465 which yield $134 in profits. Percentage-wise, they earned 5.4%...this would be in gross profit actually. It doesn't include expenses such as marketing expense, sales expense, blah blah blah. Why am I saying this?

Well, HP's gross margin is about 26% (those cartridges must carry huge margins!) What do you think this would do to their share price when they announce a bundle that would only yield 5.4%?

Go on, show us a *ready made * bundle on HP's website (not Compaq) that costs US$2500 to US$3000 as you say and we can work the numbers around and see. (If you want to go with Canadian dollars we can do that too.)


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

I would like to acknowledge the mayor's comments here and appologize to any on this forum if I have offended you with my writen gesters. I realize I have pushed ironmac a little harder then I needed to, but I guess stupidity has that effect on me. I will try and keep it more in check for future posts.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Unix:
The author of the "run unix" article was admitting that his earlier conviction about linux was false and that linux was indeed becoming a serious contender for the M$ desktop space. He goes on to say though that if the average user wants to run a unix OS, he would be better of with OSX as it has many capabilities and ease of use that even the best versions of linux can't match so far. He is making a direct comparison of the two unix type OS's, linux and OSX where the average computer user might be concerned. This also answers one of your earlier questions; "what does OSX bring to the table?"
Training you on what unix is does not really interest me. It wont make a scrap of diff to the world of computing that you are able to calculate 10% of $700, but not understand something as insignificant as unix. My primary concern at this point is to simply demonstrate to anyone interested how lacking your view point is and that you do not have the credentials to tell anyone that they belong to an ever shrinking group of anything! So far, you are making my job easy as stupidity just seems to follow you around.

Parasolid:
Now I am telling you! It probably means both. Like the article states, they are satisfying a increasing demand for 3D cad apps on mac OSX, while at the same time, the added support will likely bring more interest to the mac now that support for the parasolid kernal is available. I can certainly tell you that in my case, it was not parasolid, but a similar situation that helped me switch.

"Apple Seeing Tremendous Growth in Science and High Performance (HPC) Computing Markets" 

You keep advising everyone else to reread as if they missed an important point being conveyed. This is your response to the above statement:

"I don't think so, Macs have always been pretty heavily represented in science markets..."

Take your own advice and read the above statement carefully. It does not say that macs have never been represented in the science markets. It states that apple is seeing tremendous growth in science. There is a big difference. I never meant to call you an idiot, but at times it gets hard as you seem unable to comprehend the simplest of concepts. 

iLife:
Now that I have your printed version of the iLife thingy. (research!)
If the iLife thingy does not make sense to you, then here is some food for thought. What about iTunes? This is part of iLife and Apple seems to have really done well with the iTunes for windows Thingy. It is contributing to revenue and more importantly, is putting Apple products in the hands of the unconverted. 

If the herd mentality becomes a move from M$ to unix; do you really think iTunes is going to stop that? Not likely! What is more likely to happen is that the person leaving M$ would say, which unix do I choose? Since he/she already has a huge iTunes library with an iPod, moving to OSX would keep that investment intact. In addition, OSX has a GUI that the average user could learn easily when comparing it to other unix type OS's out there, including linux. And lastly, Apple has built a billion dollar industry out of iTunes, iPod and its ITMS. So what you are saying is that when apple made iTunes for windows, they made a huge mistake, because now it will be impossible for Apple or anyone else to see windows converts? 

Imagine! Apple is likely paying teams of analyst's millions for marketing advice, when they could have just called you and got it all for free! listen, if you are in the book, I could pass your number around if you like! Was it as good for you as it was for me? Again! You can make yourself look silly, or you can make yourself look stupid. It's up to you! 

mac pricing:
I was the one that brought up the "would not take $$$ to move to mac" and I was reflecting on your "gee... move to mac because of iLife" thingy. Regarding the enterprise switcher. If price is all you are talking about, then apple has cheaper client fees then windows. As in free. They also have a fairly well priced server and storage solution when comparing to the major competitors. And before you start coming apart at the seams, It is true, most enterprise switchers are not looking at apple today. Maybe tomorrow, but not today. On the other hand, some are as you can see from previous links. 

Macuser:
If you want the news, you will have to get the mag. You could always contact them yourself and get it from the horses mouth. If you are really desperate though, I could mail it back to canada for you.

HP:
This is an example of how stupid your posts get. You have to ask why I would resort to poking fun at you? Iron, Quit wasting my time with nonsense and I will quit poking fun at you! Where did I say that an OEM would bundle a $300 iPod with a $700 computer. That little bit of news came from you. I said that they could do any number of things including "buy one of these selected models and get an iPod for $99.99. I even mentioned in one post that it would be one of their top of the line $2500 - $3000 models. Custom or not, it is a HP computer system for sale on HP's web site. Actually, you could get the price in the $4000US range if you wanted to add software. You stated that they do not sell a computer for $3000. Do you have any idea how many times you have been corrected in this thread? 

Out of all the examples you have given me of your credibility, or lack of as an analyst, I think I like this one the most. Check Mate!

Life Sciences:
Read the articles again and let us know what you come up with.

Gotta love this:
Again read the post closely. The point was not that you do or don't need a mac to do all of that! The point was that things have changed from "the mac does not fit in" (that was yesterday), to today where you can use a mac and not notice what platform the other guy is on. That is a positive change for the mac platform don't you think. Again, you can make yourself look silly, or you can make yourself look stupid. Call the ball!

I think this thread has nearly reached its end as your argument seems to be getting rather flat. It was said the best in another post some time ago.

"Remember the scene from Month Python and the Holy Grail when the Black Knight is writhing on the ground with no limbs left, yelling "c'mon back I'll bite your ankles". Somehow I feel its at that point now "

Keep it simple iron.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

well, I can see how what mac java means by trying to keep his "childish name calling and barbs" in check..lol!









_I guess stupidity has that effect on me_ 
_you are making my job easy as stupidity just seems to follow you around._ 
_I never meant to call you an idiot_ 
_You can make yourself look silly, or you can make yourself look stupid. It's up to you!_ 
_Again, you can make yourself look silly, or you can make yourself look stupid._ 

And this statement is the height of arrogance!

_PosterBoy! welcome back. Your points are well taken, but lack all the facts probably due to the lack of interest it would take to read the long winded posts chronicled here.
_ 


Ok, here we go:


A. It's a waste of time to try to convince you that Linux isn't Unix and vice versa. You refuse to understand or even bother reading your own references!


B. Parasolid..so where in the quote does it "mean both"? Here's the relevant sentence:

_We are pleased to offer Parasolid support for the ever increasing customer demand for 3D applications on Mac OS X_ 

It does not state that there are increasing number of users moving to OS X for 3D applications. Let's be realistic here, present OS X users want to use 3D apps on their systems, there's no switching going on here.


C. _ apple is seeing tremendous growth in science_? Ok, as I said before:

*let's see verifiable numbers.* 


D. iLife for Windows again. I keep repeating myself here...if there is a version for Windows...it makes it that much harder for a Windows user to switch. Why would they go elsewhere? You have to look at demand!


E. Pricing...as I've said before, it will stay take thousands for an enterprise to switch over no matter what. And we're not talking about software costs but the hardware!


F. MacUser...don't have an url to prove it? Tough...doesn't count. So, you still have to back up this sentence of your's about increased educational sales:

_This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months! _


G. HP, let's go over some choice quotes here:

_I even mentioned in one post that it would be one of their top of the line $2500 - $3000 models_ 

Which top of the line model? Show us one that you didn't make up.

_Custom or not, it is a HP computer system for sale on HP's web site_ 

As someone else pointed out..."specious" argument here.

_Actually, you could get the price in the $4000US range if you wanted to add software._ 

Which is exactly what you did!

_You stated that they do not sell a computer for $3000._ 

Prove that they sell one without you configuring one. Go on, as I said before in the HP pricing post just above this...show us a *ready-made bundle* on HP's website.

BTW, what do you think of the financial breakdown that I've provided? It proves that even with a price of $2500 and a bundled iPod price of $99 it will not be profitable for HP to do so.

At the same time, the average selling price of a desktop PC in 2003 was about $900. Your example does not *normally* exist in the marketplace. It would barely breakeven on a gross margin basis at almost three times the average price! So, will it ever happen. NO.

BTW, here's a link to the average price so everyone knows that I'm not pulling numbers out of thin air or making things up:

http://www.detnews.com/2003/technology/0311/13/technology-323820.htm


Now, for the compatibility point:

_The point was not that you do or don't need a mac to do all of that! The point was that things have changed from "the mac does not fit in" (that was yesterday), to today where you can use a mac and not notice what platform the other guy is on._ 

So what? My point is, do you really need to spend all that money on a Mac to do those simple chores?


Now, on to a question that you've avoided for the last *five* posts despite it being highlighted in BOLD:

*F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them. 
* 


So, where do we stand now? Well, it seems like there are a lot of unanswered questions surrounding what you say. As in chess, doon't advance your pieces without supporting them...btw, it's "checkmate" not "check mate".

[ April 09, 2004, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: IronMac ]


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

So you took the stupid route. Predictable, but always interesting non the less.
unix:
You are not in a position to lecture or convince me, or anyone else for that matter, on anything related to unix. That research has been concluded some time ago.

Parasolid:
I never said the quote claimed both. You asked me a question. "Now tell me...?". I replied, "now I am telling you...". At first iron, I called you stupid because, among other reasons, I really thought you were doing this sort of thing on purpose. Sort of a silly way to make an argument. Now I am starting to think that maybe you really do have a problem with comprehension. I am not trying to be funny here. Just pointing out what seems to be a common deficiency in your posts. What would be obvious to most is that improving support for OSX with something like Parasolid could only increase interest in the platform. It certainly wont decrease interest in the platform. That is probably why the article was titled "Major victory..." 

You always demand that everyone else provide you with proof. As if you are special and what you say is almost law like, while all other arguments are discounted unless backed by proof. 

Please provide the proof as it pertains to the Parasolid article to back up this statement: "Let's be realistic here, present OS X users want to use 3D apps on their systems, there's no switching going on here.". I probably don't have to tell you how stupid this sounds coming from a world renowned analyst such as yourself. Let's see verifiable numbers.

As I have already said, you hold no special credential or authority and your credibility as an analyst, well that research has also concluded some time ago. 

In addition, the article echo's my own experience. A growing number of people in my circle are switching to OSX, while an even bigger number of people are taking notice with much interest. Like it or not, it is just what is happening.

ILife:
Funny how you just zoomed past that iTunes thing iron. Maybe you are still trying to pick up the pieces after realizing you have been had. One word of advice spud. Be careful who you criticize for not using critical thinking. If you want to fall down and play dumb, that is up to you, but if you want to carry on with what is left of your decapitated argument, then quit wasting my time with the fluff and start by answering the last post regarding iTunes. So what you are saying is apple made a big mistake! We will call this the billion dollar boo boo. Wish you had one of those iron?

Pricing:
If you want to get away from the iLife switching home user, fine, but your argument loses weight in that most enterprise upgrade cycles cost thousands because it is both a hardware and software thing. They will be spending thousands on hardware for the upgrade regardless of who is selling the cpu's. For the right enterprise though, Apple has a pretty good price point at the moment for servers, clusters and storage solutions with free client fees. So switching to mac does not necessarily mean it will cost more $$$. It could, but does not have to. It will all depend on the situation. So for you to come out with a blanket statement about what it would cost to switch is simply wrong and without solid footing. I have read several articles describing businesses that have deployed apple x-servers to run over top of their present windows clients.

Macuser:
I don't need a url to prove it. It has been published in an international mag. Hard to imagine who would ever call you an idiot. 

HP:
Regarding posterboy, I trust he is more then capable and welcome to find me here where he can express his views. I can not speak for him, but am also sure that being equipped with all the facts, he would have been more able to comment. He did mention that he just skimmed through the posts.
The fact is iron, you have been slapped around the court like a wet basket ball. It is not the first time and likely wont be the last. This has a similar ring to your unix thingy and is just another example of how idiotic it gets. Not too long ago you were telling us how unix isn't unix as it was just a clone of unix which didn't count as unix because it wasn't unix bla, bla, bla... Now he realizes that he took 10% of the wrong 700. 

Where did you or more importantly I ever mention that an iPod bundle had to include a prebuilt system? I stated that they could run a promo such as "buy one of these selected systems and get an iPod for $99.99. You are the only analyst I know that is (forgive me mayor) stupid enough to post something like "HP does not sell a computer for $3000.00" and then try and back out of it like it never happened. This was after you told me the most expensive system on their web site was $700. This is clearly wrong, wrong, wrong! 

Custom or not, it is an HP system for sale on HP's web site that could include the said bundle. Looks like you are not doing enough research spud. Check Mate!

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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

Once again, mac java:


_unix:
You are not in a position to lecture or convince me, or anyone else for that matter, on anything related to unix. That research has been concluded some time ago.
_ 

It would help if you kept an open mind but...

Oh yeah, this line from your latest post shows that you're still confused between the two:

_how unix isn't unix as it was just a clone of unix which didn't count as unix because it wasn't unix_ 


Parasolid:

You claim that it doesn't mean both? But, didn't you say a couple of posts back?:

_Now I am telling you! It probably means both._ 

As for my claim about no switching...where does it say in the article that there is switching occurring?


As for this experience:

_A growing number of people in my circle are switching to OSX, while an even bigger number of people are taking notice with much interest._ 

That's anecdotal evidence. As I said before, you're probably seeing more Macs because it's the computer you use. Just like you would suddenly "see" more Toyotas because you're interested in buying one or have just bought one.


Sure, I'll take up the challenge of iTunes:

I believe that it's a *mistake* to think that iTunes will draw people over to the Mac platform. That's not to say that it's a bad thing overall for Apple because it does bring people over to the music store and to the iPod.
As far as I know (and I'm sure that the same applies to you), there is no evidence that having iTunes out for Windows is bringing people over to OS X machines. If there were, then, your argument for iLife for Windows would have some sort of evidentiary leg to stand on!
What do you have to say to that?


Pricing:

You seem to have forgotten the original context of this. It was not about switching over from PC to Mac but from using old PCs with Linux loaded on to them. What I wrote is here in its entirety:

_On the other hand, if I, as Linux user wants to use that app (Linux), why would I spend thousands of dollars to move on over to OS X? Can you answer that question with something based on reason?_ 

And you know what? You still haven't really answered that question either.


MacUser:

Oh yes, I guess I will file your:

_I don't need a url to prove it. It has been published in an international mag._ 

along with this infamous line:

_ I am not obligated to prove anything._ when it came to education.










HP:

First off, I did admit to making a mistake about what was the most expensive HP computer on their website.
Second, that's not the same thing as you loading up a bundle to make it $3000 when the website's own bundles goes up to only $1500. As someone else said, that's "specious". Gotta love a word that basically says that your argument has no truth to it!


Now, as for "zooming" past things...let's see some of the topics that you've ignored.

A. Tremendous growth in the scientific areas? As I said before:

*let's see verifiable numbers* 

B. Educational sales...let's see some proof to your:

_This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months! 
_ 

And I still chuckle over this excuse of:

_But since you said July 1, I wont bother._ 

C. HP once again...you specifically said:

_I even mentioned in one post that it would be one of their top of the line $2500 - $3000 models _ 

Which top of the line model do they have that's $2500 - $3000?

D. What about the financial breakdown that I did over the economics of bundling? You have a lot of opinions, I would have thought you'd mention this at least.
And what about the point about the average selling price of a desktop at $900 for 2003?

E. What? No answer to my question as to why do you need to spend so much on a Mac simply to do the simple tasks that you've listed?

F. And, for the question that you've been avoiding for the last *SIX* posts:

*F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them. 
* 


It looks to me as if you've lost control of the center of the chess board. Checkmate? Hardly...but, at the rate you're going, you won't be able to move much longer.  

P.S. I suggest you do a bit more research on chess...it's checkmate not check mate. Don't be too proud to admit you're wrong about something!


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

A little short on time at the moment, but will be back to answer your last post.

unix:
I contrast this with Unix -- not "Unix" in the sense of any particular implementation (even Linux), but rather Unix as an ideal. A robust, small, cleanly implemented operating system composed of well-defined and standard interfaces. An operating system designed from the get-go to be as portable and programmer-friendly as possible. There is something about Unix that calls to me as a programmer -- it is done The Right Way. Every implementation of Unix -- predominantly in the BSD's, but to a somewhat lesser extent in Linux -- is to implement interfaces correctly, i.e., in a sane and hopefully elegant way. A quick perusal of Kernel Traffic shows that Linus is very strict about doing things right; he'll make low-level changes to the kernel, even if it causes breakage, in order to get something working "correctly." 

As a programmer, I enjoy myself much more when I'm programming in Linux. There is no helpless sense of fatality as there is in Windows. In Linux, when a library or component breaks or does not work as expected, I can simply go in there and fix it. In Windows-land, I must live by the Band-Aid and the workaround. In Linux I can be assured that my software sits on a robust and well-tested base. In Windows, I can only pray that the system will stay stable for more than a week at a time. 

But a shout comes from the peanut gallery, "What about the end users? Shouldn't software be easy to use?" Easy to use. That's been the marketing slogan for more cruddy software than I care to remember. Some of the worst interface botches in computer science history were done in the name of "ease of use." (Two words: Microsoft's Bob.) But a more insidious problem lies in making software too easy, too automatic. The recent debacle with e-mail virus plaguing Windows only happened because of the horrible design decisions Microsoft made in their Outlook mail client. In the name of making a product "easy to use," Microsoft totally compromised the system. And they steadfastly refuse to admit that this was a design flaw; it was something "the users wanted," although they cannot produce any of these alleged users to talk to the press. 

The most odious example of this trend is the animated paperclip in Microsoft's Office product. It serves no real purpose, and it is usually the first thing a user disables. And yet how many hundreds or thousands of man-hours were put into that worthless piece of code? What unknown fragility did it bring to the system as a whole? Who knows? Since the code is not open, we cannot dig into the source and find out for ourselves. Microsoft will certainly never (willingly) tell us. 

As with any other tool, software should only be as easy to use as necessary, and no more. When too many compromises are made in the name of "ease of use," the utility of the tool is damaged. Neal Stephenson, the science fiction author, wrote a wonderful essay called "In The Beginning Was The Command Line" (which can be found at http://www.cyrptonomicon.com). In this essay, Stephenson compares Unix to a large drill called the "Hole Hawg," a ferociously powerful drill that can be deadly in inexperienced hands. And yet the Hole Hawg is a perfect tool for the job it does; to gussy it up in colored plastic and put little foam-rubber doodads all over it would compromise the integrity and safety of the tool. 

I don't mean to say that every user should become a Unix guru, or that GUIs are strictly for weaklings; quite the opposite. Making software attractive and full of features is a laudable and worthy goal. But really, how many doodads does a word processor need? How many of us use the matrix-algebra or pivot-table functionality of a spreadsheet? And often, for the people who do need those things, the implementations are half-hearted and almost worthless. Better to use a special-purpose tool specifically for the job at hand. 

Linux has been called a "disruptive technology" by some. I don't think that's necessarily true. If the computer universe were limited to desktop machines, then Microsoft would continue to dominate as it always has. But the Internet has fostered an explosion of computing devices, from special-purpose servers to handhelds to web-enabled cell phones. And Linux (or QNX, or FreeBSD, or other Unix clones) can run on these devices will little modification. Windows, with its bloated and complicated architecture, has proven to be difficult (and expensive!) to port to these new devices. In short, the market is growing out from under Microsoft, the same way it did from IBM. 

Have fun spud








checkmate!


----------



## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Unix:
As I have already said, that research has been concluded some time ago. I seem to have you on auto pilot now. I supply the hammer and nails and you keep driving them into you thick scull. Analyst! Hail the unix flavors!

Parasolid:
The text was pretty clear to me, as was the message. If you cant understand what was printed, maybe ask one of your g/f's to help you with the reading. Unless of course you have them busy doing other things at the moment. I never said that the article used the word "switching", that was your comment idiot!

I am telling you that it is likely to mean both. This has already been said; and your point is?

There is nothing anecdotal about people that were using wintel laptops, but are now using macOSX laptops. Because you have BigMac's dancing in your head until lunch time has nothing to do with what has been happening in the real world over the last 24 months. Get a life spud, I mean analyst! Or what ever you are.

Pricing: I will come back to this.

iLife:
Your inability to correctly read and comprehend anything will not change the facts. The debate was not will iLife draw people to the mac platform, but was "what unix os would the windows home user switch to. In terms of iTunes, I will just leave it at this for now. What a moron! Here's to playing the analyst.

ironmac reads:
"Why would you release a piece of software that makes Windows that much more attractive? Anyone with an ounce of business sense wouldn't do that!"

Looks like apple (not having good biz sense) went against your high priced advice and won. I wonder if analysts over at M$ invest in companies they see as ever shrinking, but cool! Ironmac, your way too much fun.
As I have already said, while you are playing analyst, the people making decisions at companies like apple are making and moving billions. Don't bother trying to impress me with any more of your pseudo analytical BS or number crunching. It does very little for me. 

regarding the iTunes/iLife bringing people over to mac thingy and what do I have to say:

"There are two main constituencies [that are buying the eMac]," Tom Boger, director of desktop marketing for Apple told TMO in an interview. "Along with the iBook, the eMac is far and away the most popular Mac in schools. The other constituency is consumers, people who are switching to the platform, or people who want to start using the iLife suite."

He added, "When we talked to customers, and asked if they look at the competition, [they said] when you add in all the things they want to do with their computers, we do become price competitive. We offer things our competition simply can't; iLife is only available in this price line on the eMac."

While one might expect such comments from a marketing exec, we found that analysts agreed. Tim Bajarin says that Apple has been successful in targeting consumers with its iLife suite. Calling iLife "a big winner for Apple," he says that Apple's software integration and ease of use are bringing people into Apple's fleet of retail stores.

"We did surveys during the Christmas buying season," said Mr. Bajarin, "and we were surprised at how many people were drawn into Apple's retail stores. Video, pictures...Now that you have inexpensive DV cams, the whole idea of using moving images as part of a family gathering is really gaining ground."

Targeting this market, Apple's Tom Boger said "We now have a complete DVD burning system for US$999. If you think back to the time when we introduced the SuperDrive in the eMac family, it was priced at US$1,499.We have now managed to bring it down to a sub-US$1,000 price point."

Creative Strategies' Tim Bajarin thinks that price point for a SuperDrive-equipped eMac should do well with consumers.

He added, "Apple has done a very good job of showing how easy it is to do all the things you would expect on a computer. Even if there's a bit of premium, we're still seeing a lot of interest in the software side of things. They're doing their best to meet the [low end] price range, but the bottom line is that what's bringing people to the Mac platform is the integration application and user interface for ease of use."

This is what I have been saying all along. What do you have to say to that? Iron, please note, we have a real analyst talking here. The difference between him and you is that he is not likely to hang out posing on mac forums with a catch phrase like "toot toot, I'm an analyst"

Macuser:
It was published in an international mag. It would be hard for me to hide behind anything here. Like I said, it is hard to imagine who would ever call you an idiot.

HP:
This is where your idiotic notions of being an analyst really shine. I mean really, how stupid can you get? Could you really be that spaced out to think that HP or any of the other brand name makers could get by with a top of the line system at $700. Where would that put their bottom line system? I don't really care what you do or don't do for a living, but it sure isn't biz. 

ironmac reads
"Which top of the line model do they have that's $2500 - $3000?"

This one idiot!
customize your m400y center pc
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The top of the line system with a faster cpu, more HD space, more ram ect... The top of the line system that has a higher profit margin than the $700 el cheapo system.

Are you going to try and convince me that Hp is not actually selling this system? Or are you going to try and convince me that the $3200 systems is a substandard system when compared to your $700 one. This is a system on Hp's site that Hp could use an iPod bundle to help sell more highend systems. I said the add could run something like "buy one of these selected systems and get an iPod for $99.00." Your the idiot that suggested Hp would give a $300 iPod with a $700 computer. No wonder we have not seen that promotion yet! Hey all your work as an analyst might be paying off. You should contact M$, they might be the next ever shrinking but cool company looking for analysts that can really cook the books, I mean crunch the numbers. What a maroon! My main point was to expose a poser who seems to be suffering from delusions of grander. Checkmate! Now lets see, where was that financial breakdown again iron. You did say financial breakdown right! Just a word of advice for you iron. Don't highlight the term financial breakdown to often in your CV, your future employer might start asking questions.

I can't speak for posterboy, but I think it is laughable that you would hide behind something he said as proof for your argument. You are questioning my integrity? I am not the one posing on a mac forum while making bogus claims simply to bolster the weight of my opinions. This must be where I insert the LOL, or BBL, your done like dinner.

So the average selling price of a computer was $900 for 2003. So what is your point? Do you even have one? Or is this another one of those digital cow pies you just stepped in? The fact that the average price was bla, bla, bla means absolutely nothing except what it spells out. AVERAGE. There will be higher priced systems and lower priced systems. And your point was? See what I mean iron. It is hard to imagine who would ever call you an idiot. 

iron reads:
P.S. I suggest you do a bit more research on chess...it's checkmate not check mate. Don't be too proud to admit you're wrong about something!

You mean to tell me that you have to resort to correcting my grammar to score a point. If this was Disney Land iron, you would be goofy and your argument would be the script for one of the cartoons.

But hey! Toot toot! Your an analyst.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

Well, I can see that you don't waste any time losing control...lol! Ok, here we go again:


*Unix*

I'll say it again...you're still confused between the two and won't admit it.


*Parasolid*

First you claim that it doesn't mean both and then you claim that it does. You're flip flopping because you can't follow your own argument there! Why don't you go back over the posts and see if you can pick it up?


*iLife*

You know what? Once again, you provide an example that proves my point. Your example shows that people are drawn to the Mac because of iLife. Ok, we understand that part don't we? Let's try to stick with that idea.

Now, if it is released for Windows, why would people move on over to Mac? Your idea is that as Windows dies out then those users would choose Mac because (one reason) it has iLife and other Unix/Linux systems don't. Well, why would Windows die out if the platform has such attractive programs as iLife? As I said before, you're putting the cart before the horse. Can I try to make it any simpler for you? I don't think so.


*toot toot, I'm an analyst*

That's your catchphrase, not mine so stop putting words in my mouth (once again).


*MacUser*

Still no proof? Tough luck. Why don't you try MacSurfer like you always do? hehehe


*Don't bother trying to impress me with any more of your pseudo analytical BS or number crunching. It does very little for me*

I'm not trying to impress you with anything but the reason you say the above is because you don't dare try anything new that might harm your version of reality. We'll get back to this later.


*HP*

The only reason that HP has the system that you mentioned is because you built that system. I mention Posterboy because both he and I recognize when someone's trying to game the system. No pun intended.  

As for the financial breakdown, the numbers don't work out for a system at $2500. Are you asking me to play around with the numbers for a $3G system now? Or would I wasting my time because you will simply brush it aside with a _It does very little for me_ ?


*Average selling price for 2003*

You don't recognize the point? Even though I wrote:

_example does not *normally* exist in the marketplace._ 

You may get HP to sell a system at $3G but it is not a system that HP would be able to sell in any sort of great numbers. Gee, does that sound familiar to you?

Of course the $900 system is an average but do you even know what the word "average" means? It means that the vast majority of systems are sold at that price level. Should we get into normal distributions and standard deviations? Or will it be _ it does very little for me_ again?

Therefore, both on an economic level and a marketing level your idea flops.


Now, let's go to the stuff that you've consistently ignore:

*iTunes*

What? No comment about iTunes? Even though I put up an answer and asked you this:

_What do you have to say to that?_ 


*Pricing*

_On the other hand, if I, as Linux user wants to use that app (Linux), why would I spend thousands of dollars to move on over to OS X? Can you answer that question with something based on reason? _ 

Still no answer on that..


*Growth in Scientific Markets*

_let's see verifiable numbers_ 


*Educational Sales*

_This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months! _ 

What? You can't back up what you said there?


*Financial Economics of Bundling*

You're simply going to brush this aside? Typical. Ignore something when it doesn't look good for your argument.


*Why A Mac for Simple Tasks?*

Still waiting on this one...


*Something you've ignored for the last seven posts!*

_F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them. _ 

Hey, let's make it simpler, how about from now on, every point that you ignore we can say that you concede? How's that? 

P.S. As for the checkmate remark you sound like a sore loser. Most people are gracious enough to recognize when they're wrong and admit a mistake but you don't. Look at it this way, next time you want to cap an argument with "checkmate", you won't lose your credibility. 

[ April 19, 2004, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: IronMac ]


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

You two are wierding us all out.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

lol.

i feel like i've got my head in a vice reading this.

guys, this thread is getting real old.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Unix:
The only one still confused here is you. Don't even bother asking your g/f's iron, it wont help your position much. The damage is already done.

"There is something about Unix that calls to me as a programmer -- it is done The Right Way. Every implementation of Unix -- predominantly in the BSD's, but to a somewhat lesser extent in Linux -- is to implement interfaces correctly."

"But the Internet has fostered an explosion of computing devices, from special-purpose servers to handhelds to web-enabled cell phones. And Linux (or QNX, or FreeBSD, or other Unix clones) can run on these devices will little modification."


More on unix and open source iron. 
www.gcn.com/23_7/tech-report/25445-1.html

"Apple Computer Inc. is seeking Common Criteria evaluation of Mac OS X, which could open government doors wider to open-source software. 

Apple wants a Common Criteria Evaluated Assurance Level 3, which “costs big bucks,” said John Hurley, Apple’s security policy architect. “It’s a pain in the neck to spend that money.” 

But, Hurley told an audience at the recent Secure Trusted Operating System symposium in Washington, the entire open-source community could benefit from the effort. The OS X kernel is based on the Darwin open-source operating system. 

“OS X wouldn’t be here without open-source,” Hurley said. “Everything that isn’t graphical is open-source.” 

That means other open-source developers could incorporate the evaluated elements in their software." 


Parasolid:
If you cant read, I cant help you there. Is the mac an ever shrinking crowd? Ask the people doing this port. Check Mate checkmate check mate!

I have already stated that not only will it bring new tools to users already on the mac platform, but will likely generate more interest for people that are not. So what is your point spud?

iLife/iTunes:
If windows falls to unix in the home market, it is not likely iLife could stop that, but I guess what you are saying then is that windows is sure to fall because apple has not released iLife for windows! Check mate checkmate check mate! 

You aren't a former KPMG employee are you? OK people, we got it here first, and from an analyst I might add. iLife according to ironmac. Anyway, you stated that good biz sense would dictate that apple would not release software like iLife for windows. Incase you have not noticed spud, they already have! it is called iTunes. Slap, slap, dribble dribble... I have already stated what I have to say to that in the last post. You have not posted anything that resembles an answer yet. Analyst! Still not impressed. 

Pricing:
Ironmac displays symptoms consistent with delusions of grander. You have not provided anything regarding proof of pricing, financing, or economics to support your argument! This exists only in your head. Financial advice from a guy that invests in companies he sees as ever shrinking, but cool is not worth the hot air it is floating around on. Financial breakdown! That must have come just before your... nervous breakdown! This is also the same guy that claims $700 is the most expensive system Hp sells. No idiots here! 

Normal distributions & standard deviations? LOL! Iron,... go get a couple rolls of toilet paper and blow you nose! This is getting a little thick.

The standard deviation from ironmac:
Are we seeing more macs? Apparently in NSW we are. Notice how the article reads that the cost of the mac was comparable to the competition! So much for your why spend $$$ to switch to mac. Yank those wintel boxes out of there. Strike 3, your out!!! Check Mate checkmate check mate!!! Get another roll iron and keep blowing, because you are still full of it. Analyst! 

Please tell me iron? how is open source & unix good for the mac? How? Check mate checkmate check mate! Thats how!

www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;759393285;fp;16;fpid;0
The move away from Wintel desktops also appears to reiterate the recent strong stand by the NSW government to seek alternatives to wholly proprietary operating system kernels - and the licensing models that go with them - where cost-effective and viable alternatives exist. To this end, the RTA is making no bones about its preference for open standards and open source, with what appears to be more open source action slated for the near future.

"The Apple rollout is a continuation of RTA usage of open standards-based software and systems. The further adoption of open source is being undertaken to provide more choice of vendors and to guarantee RTA systems are providing value for money," the RTA statement said.

Unix, it appears, will also remain firmly ensconced at the RTA for the foreseeable future fronted by Apple's OSX 10.3 Panther operating system. "Apple OSX 10.3 was the major advantage sought as it fit neatly into the Unix-based registry network. [The] cost of the machines was comparable to machines being offered by other vendors. [The] technical capability of [the] iMacs was superior and users definitely preferred the ergonomic design and look and feel of the terminal," the RTA statement said.

Why A Mac for Simple Tasks? Because spudnick, it's a beautiful thing and it works and it's unix and it keeps M$ out of my pocket and it makes you an analyst!

Macuser:
It's on sale worldwide. Disprove it!
Check Mate checkmate check mate loser!

Education:
Go ahead iron, give us your take on what people in the education field have to say. What factors are important to them. This should be good! Now go back and do the spell check, ...mate!


Tired of tooting your horn iron? Toot toot, your an analyst and you have inch high things to prove it! Toot toot.


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## Script Kiddie (Jan 30, 2003)

I'm now starting to suspect that MacJava and IronMac must be the same person.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Script Kiddie: IDENTITY?


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

> guys, this thread is getting real old


_Getting??_


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Script Kiddie. Thanks for the huge insult. Sorry to disapoint you, but nothing could be further from the truth. 

Macaholic. Although I agree this debate seems to have covered territory wide and far from the original post, I disagree that it is, or has gotten old. I believe there is something of value here and worth standing up for. Your comments imply that I am wasting my time. I cannot speak for ironmac, but I run a fairly fast paced schedule and don't take time lightly. I am not doing this to fill pages on a message board. I have commited to it because I firmly believe in what is being argued about here. 

I appologize if the content of this thread is boring and below your expected standards, but I can only add that you are in control of how you use your own time.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

Once again...

*Unix*

One only has to look at your earlier posts to see that you're still confused about Linux and Unix. And, ironically, your citations don't help you.


*Parasolid*

_I have already stated that not only will it bring new tools to users already on the mac platform, but will likely generate more interest for people that are not. So what is your point spud?_ 

Actually, you've never stated in any of your previous posts about Parasolid that it will likely generate more interst for people that are not already on the platform. Again, you don't seem able to follow your own posts and you seem to be reading all sorts of things into various articles. I've said it before and I will say it again...you're fantasizing.


*iLife*

_If windows falls to unix in the home market, it is not likely iLife could stop that, but I guess what you are saying then is that windows is sure to fall because apple has not released iLife for windows!_ 

Confused once again I see. Any iLife for Windows will only forestall any decline in the Windows home market. Again, can I make it any clearer for you? No. If you're still confused, go and do what you do best, copy and paste all of my iLife arguments into a word processor and read it with the help of a tutor.

As for iTunes, did you not read this paragraph?

_I believe that it's a mistake to think that iTunes will draw people over to the Mac platform. That's not to say that it's a bad thing overall for Apple because it does bring people over to the music store and to the iPod._ 

There are different motivations for doing things. Try to understand that concept and things will go a lot smoother for you in your life.


*Pricing*

First time ever that you've given an example where a governmental body has chosen Macs when it came to choosing an operating environment other than Windows!
BTW, note that they were using Unix before they went with Apple.
I wonder why they didn't go with a Linux OS like all those other governmental agencies. Reporter never asked or didn't know what to ask.


*Why a Mac for Simple Tasks?*

_Because spudnick, it's a beautiful thing and it works and it's unix and it keeps M$ out of my pocket and it makes you an analyst!_ 

That's rhetoric and not an answer. If you look back far enough you will see that the question was why use a Mac for the simple tasks that you've listed when a cheaper Windows machine could do the same things at a much lower price point. Good luck on finding a reasonable answer.


*MacUser*

Still no proof and we know how trustworthy your statements have been. I refer you to your so-called answer to the question of why a Mac for simple tasks.


*Now, let's get back to some of the things that you haven't bothered to answer so far. They have been piling up I see:*

*HP*

Ahh...good old HP. Let's look at my last post on this"

_The only reason that HP has the system that you mentioned is because you built that system. I mention Posterboy because both he and I recognize when someone's trying to game the system. No pun intended. _

_As for the financial breakdown, the numbers don't work out for a system at $2500. Are you asking me to play around with the numbers for a $3G system now? Or would I wasting my time because you will simply brush it aside with a *It does very little for me* ?_

Well? Shall we go through this or what?


*Average selling price for 2003*

Still ignoring the implications of this I see.


*Pricing*

Still ignoring this question?

_On the other hand, if I, as Linux user wants to use that app (Linux), why would I spend thousands of dollars to move on over to OS X? Can you answer that question with something based on reason?_


*Growth in Scientific Markets* 

What? No verifiable numbers still?


*Educational Sales* 

_This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months!_ 

We're still waiting...


*Financial Economics of Bundling* 

As I asked before, you're simply going to brush this aside? Typical. Ignore something when it doesn't look good for your argument.


*Something you've ignored for the last eight posts!*

_F. The education market...ok, so, when you talk to people in this field, what do they say? List all the factors that are important to them. _ 

It's been a while since you've last read what my old high school's computer science lab administrator said to me (note that it's NOT my take). He said it all had to do with price.

So, let's see you answer F., and no we don't want your "take" because, so far, from what you've written, it's worthless.


If I were you, I'd try to calm down a bit. Computers aren't built to handle that much froth.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

BTW, I just realized something...we could do a small exercise. Remember back in the late 1990s when iMacs were all the rage and were selling like hotcakes? Well, by now, their owners should be upgrading them right? Even if 5 years is a bit of a stretch given what we already know but let's play along.

We can go back...check Apple's iMac shipment numbers and compare them to the past year's numbers. Easy enough to see whether or not those old iMacs are being replaced in the same numbers that they were bought.

Just to make sure that someone like mac java gets the point...if the sale numbers of today are higher than those old numbers then we are seeing more Macs....if they are lower then we are seeing fewer.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Unix:
Confused in which way?
"There is something about Unix that calls to me as a programmer -- it is done The Right Way. Every implementation of Unix -- predominantly in the BSD's, but to a somewhat lesser extent in Linux -- is to implement interfaces correctly."

"But the Internet has fostered an explosion of computing devices, from special-purpose servers to handhelds to web-enabled cell phones. And Linux (or QNX, or FreeBSD, or other Unix clones) can run on these devices will little modification."

No, actually it is crystal clear! No idiots here right ironmac? There is really no point in going on with this freak show iron, as there seems to be no point left for you to expand on. Are you just upset and refuse to acknowledge that the research regarding you and unix has long been concluded without you realizing it? Your attempts to argue against the common ground between unix flavors has failed. The common unix heritage and open source development taking place within that community has been repeatedly pointed out to you in several of the preceding posts. Your assumptions that linux is something other than a unix flavor, and that unix is not open source, and then that OSX is not open source, and then that you can not port apps between OSX and linux or other unix flavors, and on and on and on... are all out of step with what is actually happening. Not to mention that those assumptions leave you for dead.

“OS X wouldn’t be here without open-source,” Hurley said. “Everything that isn’t graphical is open-source.” 

"That means other open-source developers could incorporate the evaluated elements in their software." 

It is of little importance what you know or don't know about unix. What is important is that most of us realize that apple has made a conscious move to a more mainstream unix type OS for obvious reasons. Ironically iron! Unix also seems to be at the forefront of what is probably the most weighted corporate push against the M$ monopoly to date.

So you can raise your hands and have another conversation with your g/f iron, but it wont change the facts in this hand, UNIX! 

Since you are already holding the hammer, this spuds for you... spike! 

Parasolid:
The article was very plain in its text and meaning as was my response to your question. It is likely to mean both. If you can't read, hold your hand up and ask your g/f. Growth of scientific markets is a quote from the article idiot. It is not something I made a claim to on my own. The article goes on to read about how even more growth is expected because of the tools and hardware apple is bringing to market.

iLife/iTunes:
Actually I have read it all iron and yes, you are more fun as a wet basket ball then a dumb analyst! Slap, slap, dribble, dribble... Swoosh dunk! 3 points outside.

Average/Economix/pricingX2:
The average selling price? So what about it? It is an average. That's it, that's all! You mean IBM, Dell, Hp, Apple, ect... don't actually sell the $3000 systems they advertise? You mean they just put them there to look cool? Anyway, the deal was, buy one of these selected systems and get a iPod for $99.99. Who cares what the average price of a computer is except you. And that is probably because you discovered a little too late the rope you tied firmly around your neck as you were playing analyst. What a maroon!

Your economix of bundling is straight out of a MAD magazine! What, you got a calculator for your birthday or something? What mad analyst would assume that bundling an OS to an iPod is = to the profit margin on a G5 super computer/workstation? Or what idiot would take 10% of $700 as the profit margin on a top line system from a brand name maker? Probably the same idiot that invests in ever shrinking, but cool companies. Know anyone that fits that description iron?

Pricing1 I will come back to this as it deserves special attention.
Pricing2 and the linux app thingy just seems to keep going round and round for you. Maybe you are getting use to playing the basket ball and everything is starting to look like one big circle. Why spend $$$? Answer! Firstly, it does not require $$$ to switch to mac. Have you analyzed the new prices on apples site iron? Things are getting cheaper all the time. The cheapest DVD burning system was $1500 now only $999, plus this quote from above "[The] cost of the machines was comparable to machines being offered by other vendors."
Secondly, a person might want to be able to use M$ office which is only available for OSX at the moment. I know you will follow with alternatives you know nothing about, but I said and meant that it might be important for me to have and use M$ office. Third, The GUI that the windows user is accustom to is more like OSX then any linux out there. Forth, as I have said before, linux will be a competitor for sure, but not a threat in the way M$ is a threat. Linux and OSX will compete with each other for the new users they can attract from M$. After saying that, I can certainly see how someone using linux at work could and would use OSX at home for all the digital iLife things that go along with OSX. Not to mention its unix under the hood. I think I know a few people that fall into this category.


Why a mac for simple tasks? As another example of your inability to read and comprehend, I will just clear up one point. know one stated you need a mac for simple tasks except you. I made a point that now more then ever you can use a mac to research the internet for computer prices(freelance analyst's do this), do M$ office documents and email without knowing what platform the other guy is using. One answer to this question could be the quality of the mac experience and iLife. Put another way and again quoted above. "The other constituency is consumers, people who are switching to the platform, or people who want to start using the iLife suite."

He added, "When we talked to customers, and asked if they look at the competition, [they said] when you add in all the things they want to do with their computers, we do become price competitive. We offer things our competition simply can't; iLife is only available in this price line on the eMac."
"Tim Bajarin says that Apple has been successful in targeting consumers with its iLife suite. Calling iLife "a big winner for Apple," he says that Apple's software integration and ease of use are bringing people into Apple's fleet of retail stores.

"We did surveys during the Christmas buying season," said Mr. Bajarin, "and we were surprised at how many people were drawn into Apple's retail stores. Video, pictures...Now that you have inexpensive DV cams, the whole idea of using moving images as part of a family gathering is really gaining ground."

My stock answer though and also quoted above. "Because spudnick, it's a beautiful thing and it works and it's unix and it keeps M$ out of my pocket and it makes you an analyst!"

MacUser/Education sales:
We're still waiting...and I have a funny feeling you are going to keep us waiting for a while longer.

Hp:
Ahh...good old HP, yes I remember it well. What a moron. Lets see... 10% of a gram of bird feed weighs about the same as... your cerebral cortex?
Slap, slap, dribble, dribble... swoosh dunk! I'm outside the key again iron.
Ching... and that will be $3200 excluding research and tax Mr. analyst! Anything else I can get for you today. Maybe some batteries for that shinny new calculator of yours! Or this little gem, 10 easy steps on how to do research and look like an analyst. Its on sale!

irons high school/World Wide Education Market:
I was just wondering, is your old high school's computer science lab administrator a part time analyst too? The only thing I can suggest for you at this point spud is try and get out of bed in the morning without hitting your head on your old high school's computer science lab administrators desk!
When I talk to people in this field, meaning educators, as in the folks doing the teaching, they usually want simple, easy to use and easy to deploy technology that helps them with the delivery of education and keeps them productive. Cheap linux desktops are not going to be a good fit here iron. You will just have to trust me on this one, or wait another decade. On the other hand, the bean counters holding the purse strings behind closed doors are taking a serious look at the price of tea in china for sure. Not that this excludes apple. Price and more importantly the weight of one of the worlds largest monopolies has swayed a lot of schools from apples camp over the years. This in fact is what we are arguing about. Breaking out of a monopoly. If M$ falls to the point that the weight of its monopolistic control becomes less of a factor, apple is likely to retake some of those gains back in the education sector. 

Well iron, its that time again. Toot toot. Your an analyst and I have to be going. Hope you are enjoying your tour of the birdcage.







Stay tuned for pricing1 and other revelations.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java:

You know what? The preceding post shows that you are not only confused but you're increasingly incomprehensible. You ignore key points and you studiously avoid or brush aside items that prove embarassing to your argument. Let's finish this by doing a simple reality check as suggested by me in my last post (and which you've typically ignored)...let's go and count Macs by sale numbers from past years.

If you don't take that challenge then I'm going to come back and pick apart that messy post of your's bit by bit. As always, this will be done in a mature manner so you may want to take notes.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Pricing 1 revisited:
Ironmac? The iMacs in the article will be replacing wintel POS terminals. 1200 of them to be exact! Another example of your inability to read and comprehend simple english. How much longer will you keep playing the illiterate analyst?

iron reads:
BTW, note that they were using Unix before they went with Apple.

"The move away from Wintel desktops also appears to reiterate the recent strong stand by the NSW government to seek alternatives to wholly proprietary operating system kernels - and the licensing models that go with them - where cost-effective and viable alternatives exist. To this end, the RTA is making no bones about its preference for open standards and open source, with what appears to be more open source action slated for the near future."

The proprietary operating system kernel they are talking about iron would be of the M$ variety! Did you notice too? There is that open source thing again iron. Slap, slap, dribble, dribble... swoosh dunk! 3 more! The article goes on to read about how the apple machines were comparable in price to the other vendors offerings. I thought you said it took thousands to switch to mac iron? Slap, slap, dribble, dribble... in ya go spud!

Speaking of brushing things aside. You still have not answered here:

Please tell me iron? how is open source & unix good for the mac? How? Check mate checkmate check mate! Thats how! Grab the broom iron and lift the carpet, its time for some house cleaning.

This whole debate has been centered on "the more macs" issue, and you glance over the above article with 4 lines and essentially no comment. Slap, slap, dribble, dribble... swoosh dunk goes the analyst! That was from center. First it was, "you haven't shown a single one", and now its, "that was the first one". What's next! Is there still room under that carpet iron? To have you claim I am not rising to the occasion to meet your argument is pathetic! 

Keeping on the topic of pricing and your cheapo linux box argument, (more revelations) you can read this article. It should help keep you at least one step ahead of your old high school computer science lab administrator.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39153358,00.htm

"Red Hat reduced their prices, so we're passing the savings along to the customers," IBM spokesman Charles Zinkowski said.

Including a year of Red Hat's basic support, the Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS 3 costs $1,295 (£732) instead of $1,992, and including a year of premium support, the price was lowered from $2,988 to $1,995, IBM told customers in the United States. The previous prices matched Red Hat's list prices.

Red Hat's chief Linux competitor is Novell's SuSE Linux, which supported IBM's full range of servers more eagerly than Red Hat; IBM sells SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 for $1,488.

The number of customers paying for Red Hat's product support subscription boomed in its most recent quarter. The company said increasing sales volume lets it cut prices while preserving overall profit margins.

IT companies in biz today spud aren't known to entertain corporate accounts with peanuts and a free distro of unix. They leave that tactic for the keen analyst that invests in ever shrinking but cool companies. Everything has a price iron; just ask the analysts at M$. In the real world iron, server or client upgrades cost $$$ regardless of who is selling the CPU's. 

I think you were asking why the corporate IT guy wouldn't just take the old pentiums he has laying around with that free linux distro and forget all about the rest. The sugar coated version for you spud is, "That might work with your old high school computer science lab administrator, but it just doesn't work like that in the real world." 

Oh no iron! Not the dreaded free throw! ...swoosh dunk! By the time this is over, you are going to be able to roll around the house and bounce yourself into a chair. In a nutshell iron, price is not the real road block for apple in the corporate place, its being on the outside of a monopoly. Unix is could help remedy that. Especially if unix continues to gain ground on M$.

More pricing. 1)What are the profit margins a company like HP makes from a $700 system as compared to a $3000 system? Are they the same? 2)Is the profit on a $700 system the same for all the brand name makers?

I will leave you with the questions for now as I have to go, but keep your seat belt on spud, as I will be back with comments on the iMac sales thingy for sure. You might want to consider a crash helmet while you are at it.

Until then spud! Toot toot. Your the analyst.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Relax folks... 

No name calling or childish jabs.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java: As I've said before, let's finish this by going over sales numbers from years past so we can answer the question of whether or not we are seeing more Macs.

BTW, notice the other posts about Acadia and Dufferin School Board?


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Sorry for the delay iron, but there is never a dull day in the sandbox... The Acadia article? So they replaced old pc's with new pc's. And your point is? The other article I have not read yet. The NSW article on the other hand is showing a M$ replacement with OSX & open source. The saga continues!

After a good whoopin...

ironmac? reads:
"You know what?"

Boy! That was some reply. LOL! "You know what?" Really tore into it bit by bit. With note pad ready... Swoosh dunk!

That was followed by this classic!

ironmac? reads:
"BTW, I just realized something...we could do a small exercise."

Are ya sportin your crash helmet iron? 
Exercise? Actually iron, lets not and say we did ko! I am wondering how much longer it will take for you to realize you are playing the fool. Soon I think!

I keep thinking, or rather hoping that we have hit the bottom of the barrel when it comes to your lame arguments and then surprise... you pull another one out of your cap.

Really iron! This is a real question. How ignorant can you get? I mean as an analyst, how could you even come up with something so lame? How would iMac sales in the 1990's when compared to today, have anything to do with whether we are seeing more macs or not? So what, 5 million original imacs were sold and you are going to wait and see if all 5 million are replaced by the same people to determine if we are seeing more macs or not? While you are at it, why don't you do a survey to see if they are buying the same brand of socks too! We have a real winner on our hands here folks.

I am sorry iron, but that kind of research (this is research right iron?) would not even get to the abstract stage. Tell me, what would your research theorize? Fruit colored computers cause an increase in repetitive buying habits? The results of that one should really send shock waves through the market analyst communities. Does it get anymore idiotic then this, or have we hit the bottom? Time tells all.

What will your exercise prove when told that the original iMac owner wanted to upgrade to a powermac for want of more computing power!

What will your exercise prove when told that the original iMac owner opted for the cheaper full featured eMac superdrive!

What will your exercise prove when told that the original iMac owner decided to go mobile and get a new G4 iBook, or after being promoted to senior analyst, upgrades to the new powerbook. 

Actually iron, you are right! We will end this right now and do the little exercise you so cleverly masterminded. Except you are going to look at ibook and powerbook sales from the mid 1990's and compare them to ibook and powerbook sales of 2002/2004. Thats it then, it's settled! I will expect a full report on my desk first thing tomorrow morning. Be forewarned iron, I do not tolerate tardiness. 

Are we seeing more macs folks! Apparently ironmac is going to report to us tomorrow morning that in fact we are. LOL! Slap, slap dribble dribble.... swoosh dunk! The crowd goes wild!!! 

BTW, you don't mind being referred to as the analyst do you iron. I mean, I thought that was the title you wanted to be known by on this forum. If it bothers you though, all you have to do is say so. I would be glad to refer to you as just plain old ironmac.

I almost forgot! You will let me know when I should start taking notes wont you. 
BBL... I just had dinner!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

right, let's tackle this one; btw, I see that you've given up any sort of pretense of being contrite despite ehmac's reprimand.

A. You're still confused between what is Linux and Unix. Sorry, kiddo, but they are not one and the same. Even the links you quote say so. Check a few posts back:

_And Linux (or QNX, or FreeBSD, or other Unix clones) _ 


B. _Unix also seems to be at the forefront of what is probably the most weighted corporate push against the M$ monopoly to date. _

WRONG! Linux is behind the push. Again, you're confused.


C. Parasolid

You're reading way too much into a simple press release. And it's laughable how you twist and turn with every post to justify your fantasies.


D. *iTunes*

_Actually I have read it all iron and yes, you are more fun as a wet basket ball then a dumb analyst!_ 

I will take the above as you conceding the point.  


E. *Average Selling Price of a Computer*

_don't actually sell the $3000 systems they advertise?_ 

What advertised systems? I've asked repeatedly that you show a link to an advertised system that is priced at $3000 and you have yet to do so. The only thing that you've shown is a system that you created.

Again, to paraphrase my earlier point about the average selling price..VERY FEW PEOPLE will buy a $3G system. Maybe 1% of the market? You should be familiar with that.


F. *Pricing*

_Firstly, it does not require $$$ to switch to mac. Have you analyzed the new prices on apples site iron? Things are getting cheaper all the time. The cheapest DVD burning system was $1500 now only $999_ 

Really? That's one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard! Doesn't require money to switch to Mac? The original contention was that an IT guy can take some fully depreciated computers...load on Linux and be done with it. Sheesh.
BTW, you ever bother checking out Dell's site? The cheapest DVD burning system is $779. Admittedly, that was a customized system where you switch out the CDRW and opt for the DVDRW.


G. *Office X*

_a person might want to be able to use M$ office which is only available for OSX at the moment._ 

So? Some people might not want to or they might be able to get along with a Linux alternative. I do know people who go that route.


H. *Simple Tasks*

Hey, you're the one who listed the simple tasks. And your answer as to why someone would spend hundreds of dollars more to do so...well, it doesn't make sense unless you have money to burn.
As for quoting an Apple rep...well, hate to break it to you but he's not talking about simple tasks.


I. *MacUser*

_We're still waiting...and I have a funny feeling you are going to keep us waiting for a while longer._ 

Coonceding the point?


J. *HP*

_Ahh...good old HP, yes I remember it well. What a moron. Lets see... 10% of a gram of bird feed weighs about the same as... your cerebral cortex?
Slap, slap, dribble, dribble... swoosh dunk! I'm outside the key again iron.
Ching... and that will be $3200 excluding research and tax Mr. analyst! Anything else I can get for you today. Maybe some batteries for that shinny new calculator of yours! Or this little gem, 10 easy steps on how to do research and look like an analyst. Its on sale!
_ 

Typical answer...you're conceding this too I take it? I mean, you've been ignoring any request to run the numbers.


K. *Education*

It has taken about *9* reminders before you come up with this:

_When I talk to people in this field, meaning educators, as in the folks doing the teaching, they usually want simple, easy to use and easy to deploy technology that helps them with the delivery of education and keeps them productive. _ 

Yeah, believable..where did you copy and paste that from?


L. *NSW*

And Apple's OS isn't proprietary? Can I go and download it? Sounds like the NSW guys didn't bother checking out Linux alternatives. I think one of my questions was why didn't the reporter ask about Linux alternatives?
As for Acadia..if:

_The article goes on to read about how the apple machines were comparable in price to the other vendors offerings._ 

That were really true...then, they would have gone with Apple, no?


M. _Please tell me iron? how is open source & unix good for the mac?_ 

That's not my contention...it's your's.


N. *Cheapo Linux*

The argument for cheap Linux desktops..whether has already been amply proven by the links that you've provided for Asian and European deployments.


O. *The EXERCISE*


This may be hard for you to realize but a notebook computer is still a computer. We could take your so-called logic and look only at iMacs but we're a lot smarter than that. Let's look at the overall numbers...agree on a replacement rate and run the numbers.
Or are you chicken?  


P. *Analyst*

_I thought that was the title you wanted to be known by on this forum._ 

Actually, I mentioned that I was an analyst, not that that was the title I wanted to known as. Once again, putting words in my mouth, eh?


Q. *Growth in Scientific Markets*

We're still waiting...


R. *Educational Sales*

_This is a pile of BS as they have at least seen increases within the last 6 months! 
_ 

Still waiting to see if you can back up this great line of your's. Or do you mouth off for no reason? Wait..scratch that...that was a stupid question.










Well, that should do it. 

[ May 04, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: IronMac ]


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac? You can only pile BS up so high before it falls back down on you. From A to Z... been there, done that and bought the T-Shirt The credibility bank is empty Mr. analyst! Time for a career change. 

Ironmac the analyst reads:
A. Unix bla bla bla... confusion bla bla
B. bla bla bla and on and on and on...
.
.
.
O. EXERCISE! OOOOh no iron, not the dreaded free throw again. Slap slap dribble dribble.... Swoosh dunk!

The wanna be analyst hiding from his own arguments again . 

You can run, you can hide, but you cant escape your stupidity. here it is again. This is what you just realized among other things I am sure.

Ironmac reads:
BTW, I just realized something...we could do a small exercise. Remember back in the late 1990s when iMacs were all the rage and were selling like hotcakes? Well, by now, their owners should be upgrading them right? Even if 5 years is a bit of a stretch given what we already know but let's play along.

We can go back...check Apple's iMac shipment numbers and compare them to the past year's numbers. Easy enough to see whether or not those old iMacs are being replaced in the same numbers that they were bought.

Just to make sure that someone like mac java gets the point...if the sale numbers of today are higher than those old numbers then we are seeing more Macs....if they are lower then we are seeing fewer. 


My response!

macjava reads:
Really iron! This is a real question. How ignorant can you get? I mean as an analyst, how could you even come up with something so lame? How would iMac sales in the 1990's when compared to today, have anything to do with whether we are seeing more macs or not? So what, 5 million original imacs were sold and you are going to wait and see if all 5 million are replaced by the same people to determine if we are seeing more macs or not? While you are at it, why don't you do a survey to see if they are buying the same brand of socks too! We have a real winner on our hands here folks.

I am sorry iron, but that kind of research (this is research right iron?) would not even get to the abstract stage. Tell me, what would your research theorize? Fruit colored computers cause an increase in repetitive buying habits? The results of that one should really send shock waves through the market analyst communities. Does it get anymore idiotic then this, or have we hit the bottom? Time tells all.

What will your exercise prove when told that the original iMac owner wanted to upgrade to a powermac for want of more computing power!

What will your exercise prove when told that the original iMac owner opted for the cheaper full featured eMac superdrive!

What will your exercise prove when told that the original iMac owner decided to go mobile and get a new G4 iBook, or after being promoted to senior analyst, upgrades to the new powerbook. 

Actually iron, you are right! We will end this right now and do the little exercise you so cleverly masterminded. Except you are going to look at ibook and powerbook sales from the mid 1990's and compare them to ibook and powerbook sales of 2002/2004. Thats it then, it's settled! I will expect a full report on my desk first thing tomorrow morning. Be forewarned iron, I do not tolerate tardiness. Slap slap dribble dribble... Swoosh dunk!


So what is this supposed to mean iron? There are times when it must be tuff playing the analyst.
ironmac reads:
This may be hard for you to realize but a notebook computer is still a computer. We could take your so-called logic and look only at iMacs but we're a lot smarter than that. Let's look at the overall numbers...agree on a replacement rate and run the numbers.
Or are you chicken? 

No idiots here right iron? Why don't you give me a list of all the meds you are on at the moment and I will see if there is any room to have them upped.

ironmac reads:
agree on a replacement rate and run the numbers.

What an idiot. I am tired of playing the analyst thing with you. There is a bigger chance that your grandmother is driving a spanish tank around iraq then there is a chance that you are an analyst. Run the numbers! You don't actually think that I believe that you are an analyst do you? You aren't even a good spell checker, let alone a analyst! Just do the exercise like you said you would and skip the silly analyst games. I will expect that report on my desk in the morning. 

Are we seeing more macs folks! Apparently ironmac is going to report to us tomorrow morning that in fact we are. LOL! Slap, slap dribble dribble.... swoosh dunk! The crowd goes wild!!! 


Education:
www.macminute.com/2004/05/07/10q
• Apple's U.S. education channel experienced year-over-year growth in net sales of approximately 18% during the second quarter and first half of 2004.

Contact your old high school computer science lab administrator and pass the big news on. So much for you point that apple is stalled in the education market. Is there anything you have gotten right in this thread?
Toot toot goes the analyst!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

mac java, here is an interesting article that should disabuse you of the notion that Linux is *NOT* a danger to Unix straight from the horse's mouth:

http://www.newsforge.com/os/04/05/05/205241.shtml 

In case you can't read (as shown all too many times in previous posts) here is the line that is most relevant:

_Not surprisingly, the enterprise line sells well in its target settings: Unix-to-Linux migrations._ 

Let's see you try to wriggle out of that one!

As for the exercise, sure, let's do that. Let's count all of the machines that were sold in 1998 or 1999 and let's see if they are being sold in the same numbers in 2003 and 2004. Let's not bother with your eMac or Pro or iMac or PowerBook or iBook. Let's just go for numbers.

Why don't you go and do some work for a change instead of blowing off hot air? Go and get Apple's press releases from their website or from Edgar. BTW, we expect urls so we can verify that you're not "gaming" the system.


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## mac java (Jun 6, 2003)

Ironmac!

The problem here is that your argument is based on ignorance. Your background in this area is obviously lacking. The article is a very good read indeed. It is an attempt to calm the natives that Red Hat is in fact not abandoning the desktop space. It goes on to explain how they are focused and committed to improvements that will hopefully continue expansion against primarily M$ and that " there is an ever increasing window before Longhorn to get there."

No one has ever said that linux and other unix flavors are exactly the same thing. I don't think anyone here is under the impression that if they boot up mac OSX, they are running linux too. What was pointed out to you though is that there is a common ground or heritage between unix flavors and a huge open source community that can help to make software development and deployment easier. This is in opposition to being on the outside of a M$ monopoly. What environment would be better for any unix type OS? One that is based on open source and unix, or one that is based on a closed M$ monopoly? You have a 50% chance at getting this one right iron.

Red Hat or SuSe are to linux what mac OSX is to FreeBSD.
There is no secret in the fact that linux has taken off and seems to be picking up speed rapidly. It has the right corporate weight positioned at the right corporate level to excel. It is also no secret that linux vendors would like to mass a huge following and have looked to existing unix installations as a starting point to consolidate this position. Definitely a logical choice considering the size and influence of the M$ monopoly they one day hope to compete with. The sentence you quote; "Not surprisingly, the enterprise line sells well in its target settings: Unix-to-Linux migrations", is pointing out this fact. Not surprisingly, existing unix installations are easy targets for someone like Red Hat to consolidate their user base as they are a unix type OS that in most cases can offer better driver support, dev tools ect... Development for linux has made huge strides in a relatively short period of time when compared to other unix flavors. The main reason behind its popularity! No wriggling required. 

This in fact is the point I have already made on Feb 23. 

"Of course linux has the better opportunity to lead the way against M$ as it has that price/performance edge you picked up on." The point being that linux is at the tip of the unix spear aimed at M$. 

Another point along the same line, "You seem to be stuck on the fact that the mass majority of news only includes linux at this point. I find nothing odd or threatening about this and in fact fully expect it as it is the natural course of what we are talking about. It would be a little silly to put the cart before the horse don't you think?". 

On the other hand, development for BSD was largely stalled until Apple entered the scene with OSX. Apple is credited with the largest recent development boost for BSD. What they have brought to the table here is no small train! If you want to improve your understanding on all of this, try and make Apples DEV conference in June. 

As I have already said, linux will be a competitor for sure, but not a threat in the way M$ is a threat. The relevance of a unix heritage and open source has been pointed out to you over and over again in this thread. If M$ is replaced with linux, OSX will benefit because it will be that much easier to join the "party" when comparing it to what they are confronted with today. 

Back to the article though, if you continue reading the comments following the article, you will also notice that one of the respondents makes a general point about writing viruses for unix. Not specifically for linux!

And again!

Here is a link to a linux mag with an article on BSD unix's. Why would a linux mag be writing about BSD iron? Eventually, even you will figure out the common link there. http://www.linux-mag.com/2003-12/bsd_01.html

I could keep going, but why bother. You can go back and read the previous posts yourself if you are so inclined. I really don't give a fig what you know or don't know regarding unix and I have little interest in convincing you otherwise. As far as I am concerned, the research between you and unix has been completed some time ago. Slap, slap, dribble dribble...swoosh dunk! Unix 21, ironmac 0

As far as the exercise goes iron, I am not going to let you worm you way out of this one. You have done it far to often in this thread. The exercise was your idea. You came up with that brilliant idea all on your own. You wanted to compare iMac's as you figured you could show a drop in unit sales. How stupid is that iron? It just shows how ignorant you and your argument really are. Disguised as an analyst no less! Your argument certainly does not get any smarter iron. Hence the term "IDIOT"! 

So in keeping with this cleverly masterminded trap you seem to have built for yourself, we will instead look at laptop units sales for the comparative research. Using your logic, I want you to go and fetch the ibook/powerbook numbers for me. 
Time for that free throw again iron! Swoosh dunk! 

It is obvious that you are dancing around trying to find a way to crawl out of this one as you now realize that you just talked yourself into reporting that we are in fact seeing more macs. 

So what is this supposed to mean?
ironmac reads:
"Let's not bother with your eMac or Pro or iMac or PowerBook or iBook. Let's just go for numbers"? 

Are you wriggling iron? It is not mine, it is yours! What, you think people cant read what you originally posted. Slap, slap, dribble dribble... in ya go! Swoosh dunk! Its that ball thing again iron. The fact is iron, looking at iMacs or laptop unit sales would not prove anything, but it is the cake you bit into, so finish it. Are we seeing more macs iron? Yes apparently we are! I think you said it well when you said "a rising tide floats all boats". Well done iron!

Education!
What! No comment regarding the increase in Apples education sales? 18% iron! Open mouth, insert foot iron! Oh sorry, you already have both of your feet firmly stuffed down your throat. 

www.macminute.com/2004/05/07/10q

BTW, what ever happened to that macuser article you were supposed to check out? 

Slap, slap, dribble, dribble...swoosh dunk! I am beginning to think you are enjoying all the air time.

Now that we all know you for just plain old ironmac, you wont need to toot your horn anymore. But hey iron, not all is lost! You can still take comfort knowing that M$ is still way out in front. 

Until next time my fine feathered friend, keep kewl!


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## appleninja (Nov 6, 2003)

"No idiots here right iron? Why don't you give me a list of all the meds you are on at the moment and I will see if there is any room to have them upped."

Is it just me or are macjava's comments a little over the top? What are the rules for insults on this board? Is this kind of "discussion" common? Just curious . . .


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## Macaholic (Jan 7, 2003)

It's okay, Appleninja. I believe that they are very near ready to SPONTANEOUSLY COMBUST! So you'll not have to worry about it for much longer


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Posts continue to have insults and personal jabs.... This thread has run its course.....


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