# No FireWire in the new Metal MacBook? FireWire 800 only in the new MacBook Pro?



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Engadget is blogging the new Apple notebook presentation right now, and claims vaguely that the new metal MacBook does not have FireWire at all. (The new MacBook Pro seems to only have USB and FireWire 800.)



Engadget said:


> The MacBook doesn't seem to have a FireWire port. I don't think they mentioned it, but I didn't see it in the video. I wish I could TiVo it back and pause it, but Steve's got the remote.





Engadget said:


> (MacBook Pro Slot-load superdrive on right side. Left side, MagSafe, Gigabit Ethernet, FireWire 800, dual USB 2 connectors, Mini Display Port. "This is what we're going to for all video out for all of our products." Audio in and out, both analog and optical digital, an ExpressCard 34 slot, and the battery indicator is on the side "so you don't have to turn your product upside-down."


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay I got it out of my system... for now.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

FireWire 800 should have been the standard by now. Nothing a cheap 800-to-400 adapter can't fix. Not upset about that in the least.

If the MacBook doesn't have any FireWire, I'm still debating if that would deter me or bother me. As of now, I don't own a single FireWire device. (USB iPod, USB external hard drive.)

CONFIRMED: The MacBook has no FireWire ports.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

I work with a variety of Firewire industrial cameras and Macs have been great because the support for Firewire cameras through quicktime has been great. No FW 600 means all our 6 pin firewire cameras are relegated to running on older hardware. The 8 pin firewire is a total pain because most 9 pin wires don't have the metal outer shell that powers the device (because drives don't use it). So it means you need specific cables to run these things. Most PC laptops don't have FW built in, so the obvious choice has been mac. Now I'm not so sure.

Time to replace all our cameras to USB ones I think. Cheaper (barely) than replacing all our computers.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

Could I boot from an external HD with FW400 through a 800-400 adapter?


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

titans88 said:


> Could I boot from an external HD with FW400 through a 800-400 adapter?


Yes.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

titans88 said:


> Could I boot from an external HD with FW400 through a 800-400 adapter?


Yes.

This just confirms for me that I won't be buying a MacBook, until a better standard than USB is incorporated into the MacBooks.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

titans88 said:


> Could I boot from an external HD with FW400 through a 800-400 adapter?


Intel Macs also boot from external USB2 hard drives.


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## titans88 (Oct 3, 2007)

Thanks for those speedy responses!


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

So much for people wanting to do video editing a macbook ... who's bright idea was it to not have FW on them  Some newer video cams have USB2 but FW is _the_ dv protocol. Bad move on Apple's part methinks.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

Confiormed on Apple.com -- the specs make no mention of a Firewire port on the MacBrick, and only a FW800 on the MacBrick Pro.

Not only a show stopper for digital video, this kills the MacBrick for audio recording -- particularly with ProTools, where the vast majority of Digidesign interfaces are Firewire. 

And it's crippling for the MacBrick Pro, because Firewire audio interfaces and Firewire DV cameras do not like to be daisychained with hard drives. People will be forced into ExpressCard Firewire and eSATA interfaces. (Not an option for the MacBrick of course).


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I was hoping it wasn't true, even though the only devices I have that use FireWire also use USB.


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

I just voted with my dollars: I bought a refurb black MacBook 2.4 ghz for $1199.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

CanadaRAM said:


> Confiormed on Apple.com -- the specs make no mention of a Firewire port on the MacBrick, and only a FW800 on the MacBrick Pro.
> 
> Not only a show stopper for digital video, this kills the MacBrick for audio recording -- particularly with ProTools, where the vast majority of Digidesign interfaces are Firewire.
> 
> And it's crippling for the MacBrick Pro, because Firewire audio interfaces and Firewire DV cameras do not like to be daisychained with hard drives. People will be forced into ExpressCard Firewire and eSATA interfaces. (Not an option for the MacBrick of course).


Yep you're right on all fronts ... I didn't even think about the audio interfaces.

Apple is slowly catering more to end-users and ignoring professionals in their lower end hardware


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

mguertin said:


> Apple is slowly catering more to end-users and ignoring professionals in their lower end hardware


Real professionals use a MacBook Pro - which has FireWire. And if you don't, Apple is forcing you to make the leap.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Me thinks since the MacBook Air was released sans FireWire, only USB, FireWire was doomed. Me thinks that USB 3 will become the default interface on Macs. 

Jobs has always been forward thinking. (No floppy on original iMacs and only optional optical drive for the Macbook Air.)

We shall see in time.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2008)

Lars said:


> Real professionals use a MacBook Pro - which has FireWire. And if you don't, Apple is forcing you to make the leap.


"Real" professionals?  

As for making the leap read what CanadaRAM stated above .. with one single FW port "Real" professionals that have this requirement are basically SOL, or will have to dish out for a FW card for the slot, start carrying FW hubs or more likely than not, just NOT buy a new MBP until Apple comes back to their senses and provides the stuff the "Real" professionals will need on their professional line of portable machines.

I'll keep using my 17" Powerbook until I can't any longer. When it dies out if I need to do portable audio/video work I'll probably toss an iMac in a road case. Since I'll need power to run all my outboard gear anyway it's not a big leap and will be a huge savings in $$.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Forward-thinking? I guess. But Apple practically invented FireWire.





BigDL said:


> Me thinks since the MacBook Air was released sans FireWire, only USB, FireWire was doomed. Me thinks that USB 3 will become the default interface on Macs.
> 
> Jobs has always been forward thinking. (No floppy on original iMacs and only optional optical drive for the Macbook Air.)
> 
> We shall see in time.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

HowEver said:


> Forward-thinking? I guess. But Apple practically invented FireWire.


True and where is Apple's "newer, faster and more advanced" interface than FireWire 800? FW 800 is getting long in the tooth. Could USB 3 be the answer? If not what is the next big thing from Apple and when do you suppose it will be announced?


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

mguertin said:


> So much for people wanting to do video editing a macbook ... who's bright idea was it to not have FW on them  Some newer video cams have USB2 but FW is _the_ dv protocol. Bad move on Apple's part methinks.


The SD card and HD-based camcorders are now becoming the de facto consumer standard and almost none have FW ports. They're only used for tape-based camcorders which seem to be a dying breed. Unless you're a pro who wants to use a MB, it's not likely to affect you too much. If you've got legacy h/w (lol, like a Canon HV20) then you've probably got a legacy Mac to support it ... or you can get an MBP.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

RIP FW400. You may still be faster than USB 2 in reality, but after learning the wonders of FW800 and eSATA I won't miss you.

For those with FW400 devices, a 9-pin to 6-pin firewire cable is available - harder to find but easily purchased from places like monoprice.com


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## zarquon (May 24, 2005)

BigDL said:


> True and where is Apple's "newer, faster and more advanced" interface than FireWire 800? FW 800 is getting long in the tooth. Could USB 3 be the answer? If not what is the next big thing from Apple and when do you suppose it will be announced?


FireWire specs have been released for speeds up to 3200. Implementation is another thing though.

Z.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Apple has logic in this. Macbooks are meant for regular users and switchers who are used to USB and typically don't know the benefits of Firewire in OSX nor do they own many firewire devices that are not USB compatible as well. With the Macbooks now being so close in looks and performance (for non GPU intensive pro-users), this could also be their way of making Pro users jump to the MBP with it's FW800 port and express card slot. It also falls in line with their own products, iPod is USB, iPhone is USB, Keyboard/MMouse are USB/Wireless, and Time Capsule is wireless (or ethernet). Most common peripherals for the targeted audience of the Macbooks are digital camera's which are USB and printers/scanners which are also USB, external HDD's which (cheapest) are USB and the others have USB compatability. Even newer camcorders are USB. The new matching LED display now only has USB hub as well. It's pretty obvious that Apple is shifting away from Firewire, and using the much more popular USB protocal to 1) attract a bigger audience 2) use it to transition to the next, and better protocal (USB3 perhaps?). Although I am unsure, there could also be the issue of lower licensing fees for USB vs FW. With this shift however, I am also wondering if Apple will change/code OSX to read USB more efficiently. Windows tends to read USB2 a bit better then FW400.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Awww, so now I have to spend $500 more on a new camcorder? That's like a MacBook Pro...so it's better to buy the MacBook Pro then.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

MACinist said:


> Apple has logic in this. Macbooks are meant for regular users and switchers who are used to USB and typically don't know the benefits of Firewire in OSX nor do they own many firewire devices that are not USB compatible as well. With the Macbooks now being so close in looks and performance (for non GPU intensive pro-users), this could also be their way of making Pro users jump to the MBP with it's FW800 port and express card slot. It also falls in line with their own products, iPod is USB, iPhone is USB, Keyboard/MMouse are USB/Wireless, and Time Capsule is wireless (or ethernet). Most common peripherals for the targeted audience of the Macbooks are digital camera's which are USB and printers/scanners which are also USB, external HDD's which (cheapest) are USB and the others have USB compatability. Even newer camcorders are USB. The new matching LED display now only has USB hub as well. It's pretty obvious that Apple is shifting away from Firewire, and using the much more popular USB protocal to 1) attract a bigger audience 2) use it to transition to the next, and better protocal (USB3 perhaps?). Although I am unsure, there could also be the issue of lower licensing fees for USB vs FW. With this shift however, I am also wondering if Apple will change/code OSX to read USB more efficiently. Windows tends to read USB2 a bit better then FW400.


It's better to have it and not need it, rather than need it and not have it.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Quicksilver G4 said:


> It's better to have it and not need it, rather than need it and not have it.


I tend to agree with you in the case of FW, however, in Apple's logic same could of been said for floppy drives, serial ports, usb1, ADC etc. Reality is that there is limited real estate on constantly shrinking Apple portable. Apple is also able to influence peripheral manufacturers to make and adopt protocols faster (FW800) at the same time speed up the demise of older (FW400) being the only real supporter of the standard.

To be frank, the exclusion of an HDMI port bothers me more than the FW. It's a smaller port then DVI. They could of easily made the new LED screen HDMI instead of another proprietary mini display port. The standard is much more useful when connecting with other displays as well.


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

MACinist said:


> I tend to agree with you in the case of FW, however, in Apple's logic same could of been said for floppy drives, serial ports, usb1, ADC etc. Reality is that there is limited real estate on constantly shrinking Apple portable. Apple is also able to influence peripheral manufacturers to make and adopt protocols faster (FW800) at the same time speed up the demise of older (FW400) being the only real supporter of the standard.


In the case of floppy drives, serial ports, ADC, there were adapters and external solutions (whether from Apple or third party) which allowed one to still have that functionality.

A USB2 to Firewire dongle would not work, especially with digital audio interfaces, unless you want to record audio at 48khz or under (most semi-pro people in digital audio record 96K 24-bit, which is too much for USB2 to handle).

For those that never use Firewire, this is a sexy shiny new upgrade. I hope this time around there is are no Rev A issues.

For me, the black 2.4 ghz MacBook that I ordered today has even already shipped! I'll have it by Thursday or Friday. Last generation machines have always been solid. yay!


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Loss of Firewire is a major issue. Apple is banking on consumers moving to hard drive based camcorders with USB connections but the ability to plug in a DV camera and edit in iMovie was what spurred me to buy an iMac in the iMac DV days. We were already Mac folk but that made take my wallet out of my pocket again. This is a biggie.

Moving to Firewire 800 only is fine for me but when you figure in that they are moving to miniDVI as well, I need stupid dongles for my most important connections. I hate, no I loath, dongles. I was pissed when I had to get a dongle to use S-Video out on my latest MBP. Inconvenient and annoying to have dongles.

Don't forget your dongles.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

mguertin said:


> Apple is slowly catering more to end-users and ignoring professionals in their lower end hardware


Correction: Apple is pushing "professionals" to higher-end hardware to distinguish it from "consumer" hardware.

Having said that, I'm very disappointed that the new MacBook does not have one lousy FW port. Given that my beloved BlackBook is performing so well, I will probably skip this iteration (which surprises me greatly). USB2 isn't bad, but it certainly isn't the same.

I'll take another look when FW3 and USB3 come out.


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

> Given that my beloved BlackBook is performing so well, I will probably skip this iteration (which surprises me greatly). USB2 isn't bad, but it certainly isn't the same.


It surprises me greatly too, and I was a little concerned.

Most of the time I've bought the latest and greatest, so I thought maybe I'm getting old or something, but when you compare the fact that you can buy a 2.4 ghz black or white MacBook for $1149-1199 vs. a 2.4 ghz aluminum MacBook for $1749 (that's a $550-600 difference!) and have no Firewire, it was a pretty easy choice.

Funny thing is I sold my 2.2 ghz black MacBook in anticipation of this release, and now I jump back in with a 2.4 ghz black MacBook. I actually liked the look and performance of the machine, so to get a faster one at about the price I sold my older one at is a great deal.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Kestral said:


> Most of the time I've bought the latest and greatest, so I thought maybe I'm getting old or something, but when you compare the fact that you can buy a 2.4 ghz black or white MacBook for $1149-1199 vs. a 2.4 ghz aluminum MacBook for $1749 (that's a $550-600 difference!) and have no Firewire, it was a pretty easy choice.


That $1749 price tag baffles me too. It puts it in the very premium category. It would of been nice to include a Blu-Ray drive in that price range as most PC's of any size and spec are sub $1200 these days.


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## avedon (May 25, 2007)

*What the $#@^?*

No firewire (will probably not work in target mode). No NetBook (10 inch or smaller screen). I hope Apple stops doing these events I am getting completely disappointed in them.
Looks like I may have to invest in one of those Asus eepc for real portability.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Yeah, I can tell you now I will NEVER be owning a new MacBook due to the lack of FW.


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

I think Apple really painted themselves into a corner, because the last iteration of the MacBook and MacBook Pro were so well designed.

Technically, they could have just made "brick" versions of the previous design so that they were thinner, lighter and sturdier, but from a marketing standpoint, they had to have something new to sell the sizzle to the masses.

Who knows, maybe the new look will grow on me, but I thought there was nothing wrong with the previous iterations of the machines.

When the MacBook Air first came out, I thought it looked like a woman's purse. Now I think it looks cool (but way overpriced imo and no Firewire which is a deal-breaker for me). Time will tell.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Personally I won't miss FireWire and I think most new switchers won't even notice its missing which is the market the MacBook does so well in. I'd rather have an eSata port as that's what my external has then a FW400 port.


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## madhatress (Jul 22, 2007)

The only drawback I see to not having a FW port on the MB is the inability to copy over files and settings when upgrading. This is what I did when I replaced my whitebook with a MBP last year. Quick and painless! What option would one have now?


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

Andrew Pratt said:


> Personally I won't miss FireWire and I think most new switchers won't even notice its missing which is the market the MacBook does so well in. I'd rather have an eSata port as that's what my external has then a FW400 port.


The MacBook lost firewire but didn't pick up an eSATA port so where's the gain. The great thing about switching was that you could get a better "PC" experience and then grow with Apple's improvements (firewire for DV camcorders, etc.). Now all you get is a better PC experience. Any users who switch and continue to use windows will question why they switched if there isn't really anything more. I know that sounds weak, the OS is a big draw in and of itself but if there isn't more on offer, it's just more expensive hardware.

Consider that there are cheaper laptops out there with HDMI video out, firewire (IExxxx whatever), more USB ports, Blueray players. If Apple is falling back on the hardware/software argument, they are going to loose.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not happy that they didn't supply eSata or HDMI just that I think for many macbook buyers FW isn't that big an issue.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Andrew Pratt said:


> Oh don't get me wrong I'm not happy that they didn't supply eSata or HDMI just that I think for many macbook buyers FW isn't that big an issue.


I would definitely disagree because you're pretty well out of options for iMovie now.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Not if the industry is heading towards solid state recording on memory sticks or harddrives. In my circle of friends (25-39 year olds with young families or couples) I know of only one that had a firewire based camcorder...everyone else uses a newer style or just uses the video camera built into their Point and Shoot still camera. Long time mac users have legacy FW gear and a small minority will miss the FW for their older movie camera's but if Job's is right in that there's a lot of new switchers buying MacBooks I still say FW won't be missed by the majority. Besides its not like FW is gone its still available on the pro machines.


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## cdnbacon (Feb 26, 2001)

Kinda odd thinking that they exclude a firewire port from the Aluminum MacBook, but how else will they differentiate it from the MacBook Pro's now that a decent graphics chipset is inside, and keep the price as low as it is? Hasn't the MacBook line of products always have one "crippling" feature that everyone cries about since the iBook days? If not video mirroring, it was integrated graphics, etc. As an audio pro, I can't think of not having my 17" MacBook Pro with me all the time, besides, there are audio interfaces are coming out supporting the USB2 standard, been real happy with my M-Audio Fast Track Ultra. Still it would be nice to have that firewire port for camcorders, then again many of them are going to flash memory, again negating the need for a firewire port.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Yes, but the Pro models are even more expensive than before, some may not want to haul a 15 inch computer (vs 13") to Cancun, such as my friend who travels to Rota island every single Christmas. And I also disagree that FW is legacy. The pros still use HiDef FW camcorders such as the GL2 (not HD but you get what I'm saying).


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

avedon said:


> No firewire (will probably not work in target mode). No NetBook (10 inch or smaller screen). I hope Apple stops doing these events I am getting completely disappointed in them.
> Looks like I may have to invest in one of those Asus eepc for real portability.




Wow, forgot about target disk mode. That's a MAJOR problem everywhere.

Apple, all we want is a 12" MacBook Pro that looks like the previous MBP, not silly things that don't work for us. 

The lack of a hardware click may be a problem for some, as we are used to having a hard button and not making the computer accidentally click.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

YES! Apple needs to make a 'Book, with FireWire, just like the 12" PowerBooks! I have one and absolutely love it and it would be a very good sub-$1000 laptop!


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

gadgetguy said:


> YES! Apple needs to make a 'Book, with FireWire, just like the 12" PowerBooks! I have one and absolutely love it and it would be a very good sub-$1000 laptop!


Now that would push stock up much more... Apple hasn't been coming out with good ideas lately...

Listen to what WE want, not what the "idea thinkers" at Apple want!

Now, widescreen or fullscreen? I would say fullscreen is better for it...


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Agreed. 12" Widescreen would be a little bit... uh... W I D E.


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## MrsMime (Sep 8, 2008)

Quicksilver G4 said:


> Wow, forgot about target disk mode. That's a MAJOR problem everywhere.
> 
> Apple, all we want is a 12" MacBook Pro that looks like the previous MBP, not silly things that don't work for us.
> 
> The lack of a hardware click may be a problem for some, as we are used to having a hard button and not making the computer accidentally click.


I'm pretty sure that the trackpad is one big hard button. They just made it touch-sensitive. Ugh, at least I'm HOPING. That would be even worse.. 

Also I agree with cdnbacon, aside from the few inches, now theres really only a few hundred bucks separating the MB from the MBP. I wonder which one will get the sales influx?


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## the_human_body (Jun 25, 2006)

mguertin said:


> Apple is slowly catering more to end-users and ignoring professionals in their lower end hardware


What they are doing is catering to all their iPod buyers that aren't mac users!

Oh, and it also ****s me that they're selling the old bottom of the line MB, with a Superdrive, for less than the new ones so they've still got a cheap model. So it's $250 less for a more powerful (2.1GHz vs 2.0) machine that still has Firewire?


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## the_human_body (Jun 25, 2006)

cdnbacon said:


> As an audio pro, I can't think of not having my 17" MacBook Pro with me all the time, besides, there are audio interfaces are coming out supporting the USB2


I'm going to call you out on this because as an "audio pro" you'd know that firewire travels at it's rated speed at all times, therefor giving you near zero latency. USB2 on the other hand, while rated higher, seldom ever travels at its full speed. Hell, you'd be lucky if it traveled at even half the rated 480mbps!


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

MACinist said:


> I tend to agree with you in the case of FW, however, in Apple's logic same could of been said for floppy drives, serial ports, usb1, ADC etc. Reality is that there is limited real estate on constantly shrinking Apple portable. Apple is also able to influence peripheral manufacturers to make and adopt protocols faster (FW800) at the same time speed up the demise of older (FW400) being the only real supporter of the standard.
> 
> To be frank, the exclusion of an HDMI port bothers me more than the FW. It's a smaller port then DVI. They could of easily made the new LED screen HDMI instead of another proprietary mini display port. The standard is much more useful when connecting with other displays as well.


The loss of FW400 is definitely a bummer, it'd have been nice if they at least kept FW800 around in the Macbook - however it is understandable given the very limited supply (in comparison to USB) of accessories. The fact of the matter however is that FW is superior to USB in terms of speed, reliability, and FireWire Target Disk Mode is a troubleshooter's best friend. That said - the MacBook Air didn't include a FireWire port and the dropping of FireWire is understandable. (I'm not a fan but I understand).

For those who aren't sure the breakdown of speeds:
USB 2.0 - Theoretical maximum is 480Mbps but never gets close to it since there are several bottlenecks along it's route including that anything to do with USB 2.0 has to go through the CPU. However it's widely popular and can be found on any computer now a days.

FireWire 400 - Theoretical maximum is 400Mbps but since it has a hardware controller it doesn't need to interact with the CPU in order to do it's work and it's actual throughput is higher than that of USB 2.0. However it's a lot more limited in that many PC manufacturers do not include FireWire on their machines except Media PCs. Uses a 6 pin or a 4 pin connector, the 6 pin also provides power for devices and was used to charge iPods right up through to the 5.5G iPods)

FireWire 800 - Even less likely to be seen than FW400 but at twice the speed (800Mbps). External hard drives that use FW800 are more expensive but the speed up over FW400 let alone USB 2.0 is quite appreciable and necessary if you want to do anything disk bandwidth intensive (eg. more basic video editing). Uses a 9 pin connector and is backwards compatible to the slower speed FW400.

SATA - 1.5Gbps or 3.0Gbps depending on the configuration. Much, much faster than the previous versions. Personally I'd love to see Apple come out with this connector on at least the next iteration of the Mac Pros, however it's pretty much limited to just hard drives. I don't know of any other accessories that have it (I could be wrong).

In the future the following have been announced or are being worked on:

USB 3.0 - Will theoretically reach 4.8 Gbps and is supposed to be backwards compatible with USB 2.0 and 1.1 devices. It won't be on the market until late 2009/early 2010 at the earliest.

FireWire 1600 - FireWire at 1600Mbps or 1.6Gbps. Supposed to be coming out at the end of this year. Uses the same 9 pin connector as FW800.

FireWire 3200 - FireWire at 3200Mbps or 3.2Gbps. Supposed to be coming out at the end of this year. Uses the same 9 pin connector as FW800.

For what it's worth DisplayPort is an open standard that doesn't require royalties or licenses to be paid like HDMI. However DisplayPort isn't designed to replace HDMI but be the next version of DVI / VGA. You can find more information about DisplayPort at DisplayPort and DisplayPort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However the Mini DisplayPort connector at present is a proprietary connector in that there are no adapters to go from the mini connector to the full size connector (and as far as I know no one else uses).


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## Darien Red Sox (Oct 24, 2006)

No new 17" model?? I notice the old one is still offered with a few moist upgrades. Apple might be planing on a new design for this that will target the pro market. But I still must say that laptop technology lags way behind desktop technology now a days. I have seen much slower speed bumps in laptops than in desktops over the past few years. Apple will soon release a new 17" Mac Book. I think the lack of the new 17" Mac Book was lack of time before the holidays, I would not be surprised to see something more in Mac Books at Macworld.


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## MrsMime (Sep 8, 2008)

Well of course alot of them are going to have lower speed bumps, alot of companies design notebooks as sub-computers.


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## cdnbacon (Feb 26, 2001)

the_human_body said:


> I'm going to call you out on this because as an "audio pro" you'd know that firewire travels at it's rated speed at all times, therefor giving you near zero latency. USB2 on the other hand, while rated higher, seldom ever travels at its full speed. Hell, you'd be lucky if it traveled at even half the rated 480mbps!


Sorry, but I have done the comparisons, and with a FFT analyzer I have yet to measure an appreciable difference in latency delay between my Fast Track Ultra and Presonus Firebox, it will still be a couple of mS to account for the A/D conversion at whatever sampling rate suits your fancy..big deal! I don't have any problems fitting 8 channels I/O on a USB2 interface. For anything more, then definitely use a firewire interface, even multiples of them! But if you're spending that kind of money, you'll want to spend the extra few hundred dollars for a MacBook Pro if you value the screen size and the ability to add an ExpressCard firewire interface! MacBooks are not intended for that kind of "pro" application! Soooo, who's calling who pro here?


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

madhatress said:


> The only drawback I see to not having a FW port on the MB is the inability to copy over files and settings when upgrading. This is what I did when I replaced my whitebook with a MBP last year. Quick and painless! What option would one have now?


Although this has not yet been announced, I am pretty certain Apple has adapted their setup assistant (and thus, Target Disk Mode) to work with USB2 as of these new machines.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

chas_m said:


> Although this has not yet been announced, I am pretty certain Apple has adapted their setup assistant (and thus, Target Disk Mode) to work with USB2 as of these new machines.


Which is not good because data transfer will be much slower and you have to find a special type of USB cable to do it.


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

I'd rather they just allowed users to plug an ethernet cable between the two computers for the migration....everyone has an ethernet cable


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

They also missed the opportunity to add an eSATA port. Although it is a one trick pony (hard drives only) it is a big trick and would have been greatly appreciated now that SATA is ubiquitous.


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## Cole Slaw (Aug 26, 2005)

Andrew Pratt said:


> I'd rather they just allowed users to plug an ethernet cable between the two computers for the migration....everyone has an ethernet cable


Yeah, luckily Apple still includes an ethernet port.
By next year they'll drop it, saying that most Mac users are on a wireless connection anyway.
Or they'll sell you a dongle of some type for $20 to plug into your USB or something ( and by that time only 1 USB port for Macbook owners, since they're not "Pros").


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Cole Slaw said:


> Yeah, luckily Apple still includes an ethernet port.
> By next year they'll drop it, saying that most Mac users are on a wireless connection anyway.
> Or they'll sell you a dongle of some type for $20 to plug into your USB or something ( and by that time only 1 USB port for Macbook owners, since they're not "Pros").


Why have any ports at all then?

Surf, print, backup, install, play movies and music, all wirelessly. Of course, you'll need another computer that does all those things in order to manage them. MacBook Pros and Mac Pros for everyone!


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Cole Slaw said:


> Yeah, luckily Apple still includes an ethernet port.
> By next year they'll drop it, saying that most Mac users are on a wireless connection anyway.
> Or they'll sell you a dongle of some type for $20 to plug into your USB or something ( and by that time only 1 USB port for Macbook owners, since they're not "Pros").


:lmao: :lmao:


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

I'm 99% sure that OSX now supports migration through USB; wouldn't make any sense otherwise. I guess we will have time to make (yet) another cup of coffee while the slower connection speed does its job. Let's wait and see reports from first users.

The most exciting thing for me is an easily accessible drive bay.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

*I am now 100% sure!*

Fear not, it's not USB...

"The first time you turn on your MacBook, Setup Assistant starts. Setup Assistant helps
you enter your Internet and email information and set up a user account on your
MacBook. If you already have a Mac, Setup Assistant can help you automatically
transfer files, applications, and other information from your previous Mac using an
Ethernet or a wireless connection."

Read this and more here.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

*Other interesting findings...*

Seems that, unfortunately, Target mode is not supported.

Also, it is now much easier to swap the hard drive than to upgrade the RAM!


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## Kestral (Mar 14, 2001)

No Firewire on the MacBook is a bag of hurt.


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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

cdnbacon said:


> I have yet to measure an appreciable difference in latency delay between my Fast Track Ultra and Presonus Firebox, it will still be a couple of mS to account for the A/D conversion at whatever sampling rate suits your fancy..big deal!


It's not latency that is the problem -- and as you mentioned the latency is mostly in the AD conversion, not in the cabling standard of the interface.

The problem is that USB2 is worse at sustained, volume transfers, and it takes more % of the CPU power for management of the USB bus than Firewire does. This is significant when you are running tasks (like many tracks with VST plugins and instruments running at a low buffer setting) that are CPU bound.


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## crazy (Feb 27, 2008)

So as someone who is totally oblivious, what's the point of having two graphic cards in the new MBP? They say yo have to logout to switch - why would you want to switch?

Thanks


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

You would want to switch to save battery life.


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## rubeole (Oct 21, 2005)

Oh! Look here now...

Wot's this?


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## Thom (May 10, 2005)

I am very disapointed. I have two ext FW drives and a digital video camera.... none of which will work on a new MB. Guess I am stuck with my old MB for a while longer...


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## MrsMime (Sep 8, 2008)

rubeole said:


> Oh! Look here now...
> 
> Wot's this?


That's hilarious! Obviously Apple knows they made a big boo-boo there.


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## MacGYVER (Apr 15, 2005)

Oh boy, doesn't anyone here understand Apple when it comes to marketing? Has anyone here ever took marketing or works in marketing? 

The MacBook is not marketed towards PRO USERS, just because pro users are cheap and don't like spending money on PRO machines, isn't Apple's fault. If a Pro user wishes to stick to a 13.3 inch screen to do Pro stuff, then by all means go ahead. The real pros will use at least a 15.4 or a 17 inch laptop from Apple, or better yet this thing called a Mac Pro.

The MacBook is for the average joe. The average joe will have a digital camera that uses USB 2.0, a camcorder that uses USB 2.0. They probably are not hard core Mac users, and even then you wouldn't use a 13.3 MacBook for professional work? 

If FW 400 is important to you and your old stuff didn't come standardized with USB 2.0 like most things these days that the average joe buys, then don't upgrade to the MacBook. 

Every year it is the same thing, Apple doesn't produce something or takes away something, lots of noise from Mac users, always the comments of Apple's products are going to fail etc.... guess what? I didn't see the numbers slide downwards in any of the charts of their sales figures. I can tell you right now, 6 months from now Apple's sales of the new MacBook will be huge. The average consumer doesn't care, or has the know, they just walk in with $$ or order online and enjoy their new toy. As for Mac users who have been around and spoiled for all these years, well they will sit here and be grumpy and upset and continue to watch those sales sky rocket for Apple  .


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## Andrew Pratt (Feb 16, 2007)

Well said :clap:


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## eggman (Jun 24, 2006)

I know some real pros who preferred the smaller form factor, slightly more resilient plastic body and "does most things - just a bit slower" of the previous MacBooks with FW. I know people who've wedged FCP onto these machines (no Colors or Motion but most of the rest).

They won't be happy with this model.

I read the linked thread at MacFixIt - it seems I am not alone.

I have to admit that this change makes me nervous too - twice in the past 5 years I've been lucky enough to pry my most recent data from a dying Mac portable without having to resort to surgery - target disk mode can be an awesome option when you need it. (Yes they were backed up - I did specify "most recent", and yes, Time Machine might help with this... once I learn to trust it)

At this point it is probably saving Apple less than $5 a unit to do this. In this context the omission of FW functionality - especially since it has been replaced with... *nothing* - *seems* cheap. (yes - I know that $X times the number of MacBooks sold will eventually add up to real money - but the 13.3" Dell Inspiron laptop seems to come with a firewire port *AND* an expresscard slot... for $800 CDN.

Drat. I wish I hadn't found that comparison. Now the new design/price from Apple seems worse than before. At least you can't get Blu-ray in the 13.3" Dell... for that you have to move up to a 14" model, and the "bag of hurt" that that would entail with its $1000 CDN base price.

And before anyone jumps on me for what I've posted above - I realize that for those prices, once the delivery person has driven away and you're all set up - you've got a hot little piece of Dell on your desk steaming with V!sta... and that is why I won't do it - but I had hoped for better from Apple.

I'm not in the market for a new machine right now - but in a revision or two I might be... if Apple keeps moving in this direction... I don't mind a premium price for a premium machine (even an entry level premium machine... but even a "beginners BMW" has cupholders and a radio.)

I'm afraid... I don't want to go to Dell!! 

(and I'm pretty sure that by mentioning them on ehMac I'll get told to... )


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

MacGYVER said:


> Oh boy, doesn't anyone here understand Apple when it comes to marketing? Has anyone here ever took marketing or works in marketing?
> 
> The MacBook is not marketed towards PRO USERS, just because pro users are cheap and don't like spending money on PRO machines, isn't Apple's fault. If a Pro user wishes to stick to a 13.3 inch screen to do Pro stuff, then by all means go ahead. The real pros will use at least a 15.4 or a 17 inch laptop from Apple, or better yet this thing called a Mac Pro.
> 
> ...


I worked at Apple and yes in the marketing department. It is not the same anymore. The thing that always pissed me off was that there was always something missing. My Macs are way better than any PC out there but when it comes down to it, they always leave me wanting more. I almost got it with my latest MacBook Pro (in fact I think I liked my 15 inch PowerBook better) but if I move to a new one, I am taking another step backward. 

Seriously, the new units have some great new features but Apple is jumping the gun on ditching Firewire. By the time the floppy disappeared nobody was using it anyway. Everyone I know with a Mac uses firewire. Sure they could buy all new (insert firewire device here) but why should they? Because Apple said so? I know, they can carry an extra bag of dongles and gewgaws so that just maybe they can actually connect their expensive Mac laptop to a hard drive, monitor, projector, tv, printer (yes I have a really nice photo printer that uses firewire), audio device, dv camcorder, etc. I like target disc mode but that is gone now too. 

It's just too soon to start dumping Firewire.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

It's their prerogative

However it is a shame that, for now three years, there has been nothing to replace the extremely useful PB12".

I must say that I enjoyed working with my old 12 and even edited many films on it - although it was clearly easier when I used my 19" external screen.

I would be interested to find out what Apple is proposing to replace Target mode on those machines - as it has been said above, it has been a lifesaver for most of us at some point or other. Let's see how the Ethernet connection works.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I'm not a pro user but I will be forced to buy pro equipment. Say what?

I have 3 perfectly functioning external drives which are all Firewire 400. I have a Sony Handicam which is Firewire 400. 

Omitting to put a Firewire port in the MacBook is a bonehead maneuver and judging by comments around the internet, I'm not in the minority thinking so.

I hope Apple rethinks the idea of dropping Firewire in future products.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

So who is really going to switch back to PC over this? Probably not many. Meaning, Apple's decision on excluding FW on the MB's will probably have zero impact on their sales. Switchers and people that don't give a hoot about FW will still buy it. You die hard FW supporters will probably use your older machines for now. Then eventually buy a Macbook Pro, or better yet, still buy a new Macbook but convert to USB devices or use your Mac Pro or iMac as your FW home base. 

I stepped into Sherway Apple store last night as I was driving by to get a peak at the new notebooks. Non were on display yet but they were in stock. A new MB however was passed around to those requesting to see one and once it came out, almost the entire store gathered around it. The design appeal will attract more people then it's function. Which is pretty much the way that Apple has always sold their hardware. 

The only thing I foresee happening, is possibly Apple dropping the prices a bit. Pretty steep in times like these and much better value on the PC side if you compare spec by spec on premium notebooks.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

Yup, I expect AAPL to tank today on two grounds:

- general correction of all tech stocks
- realisation that the $999 price point is smoke and mirrors: the new laptops start at $1299 and that is very steep compared to the industry.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

MacGYVER said:


> Oh boy, doesn't anyone here understand Apple when it comes to marketing? Has anyone here ever took marketing or works in marketing?
> 
> The MacBook is not marketed towards PRO USERS, just because pro users are cheap and don't like spending money on PRO machines, isn't Apple's fault. If a Pro user wishes to stick to a 13.3 inch screen to do Pro stuff, then by all means go ahead. The real pros will use at least a 15.4 or a 17 inch laptop from Apple, or better yet this thing called a Mac Pro.


Maybe you could explain why a consumer machine like the iMac has Firewire.   

Look, we all know they did it to differentiate it further from the MBP. But that doesn't mean we have to like it. Especially since the same previous 'non pro' MacBook had Firewire. 

Yes, but life will go on though.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm not sure why that's in this FireWire thread, but let's bring it back. The $999 US/$1149CAD low-end MacBooks still have FireWire. That's a selling point for some people, and it's possible that as Apple often does, the pricing of the $1299/$1399 and the highest MacBook will drop to replace the $999/$1149 and $1299/$1399 prices or thereabouts (dropping the current low-end FireWire model).



Moscool said:


> Yup, I expect AAPL to tank today on two grounds:
> 
> - general correction of all tech stocks
> - realisation that the $999 price point is smoke and mirrors: the new laptops start at $1299 and that is very steep compared to the industry.


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

HowEver said:


> I'm not sure why that's in this FireWire thread, but let's bring it back. The $999 US/$1149CAD low-end MacBooks still have FireWire. That's a selling point for some people, and it's possible that as Apple often does, the pricing of the $1299/$1399 and the highest MacBook will drop to replace the $999/$1149 and $1299/$1399 prices or thereabouts (dropping the current low-end FireWire model).


I agree that the WhiteBook is doomed but there has been strong industry pressure to hit the $700-800 price point and Apple is going in the other direction while removing features. So we are witnessing a clustering of pricing between the 13 and 15" models with an inconsistency of features, that the FW connection.

In addition, my son has bought a $700 15" glossy screen Toshiba a couple of months ago (Vista home) which is absolutely adequate for 99% of his needs except... Video editing which he does on our old Mac Mini because it has FW. Now that's OK because it is a cheap machine, and because if you are desperate it has PCMCIA so you could plug a FW connection. No such luck with the very expensive MacBrick


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

MacGYVER said:


> The MacBook is for the average joe. The average joe will have a digital camera that uses USB 2.0, a camcorder that uses USB 2.0.


I have to take issue with this one point. Most video cameras on the market right now still use FW, and of course almost all "old" (by which I mean "anything older than yesterday") camcorders do.

This is the part that infuriates people: you're not just buying a new computer, you are (literally) throwing out all your perfectly functional audio gear, your camcorder and potentially some of your hard drives. Not very "green" really, is it, to say nothing of the "hidden cost" of upgrading.

You are right that USB2 for video cameras is (disappointingly) the way of the future, but even that's a VERY short-term future; USB3 and/or FW3200 aren't that far off, and far better suited for HD camcorders which will eventually supercede SD camcorders (but are nowhere near doing so at present).

Though I've done some pro work on MacBooks, I do recognise that they aren't "pro" machines; but me wanting to edit the video of my trip should require a "pro" machine. Me wanting a little four-track mixer for songwriting shouldn't require a "pro" machine.

Me wanting to mount my other Mac as a hard drive on this Mac shouldn't require a "pro" machine. Nuff said.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Chas, but you can say that about so many other features you should not have to do on a Pro machine as well (like a friggen expansion slot Apple! that would solve the lack of FW/Esata/media card issues on your revs).... mind you... I'm all for FW still being there. It's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes and I truely don't think it will matter to Apple. Life will go on. 

.. and then there was the rally in Redmond

:lmao: :baby: :lmao:


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2008)

chas_m said:


> Though I've done some pro work on MacBooks, I do recognise that they aren't "pro" machines; but me wanting to edit the video of my trip should require a "pro" machine. Me wanting a little four-track mixer for songwriting shouldn't require a "pro" machine.
> 
> Me wanting to mount my other Mac as a hard drive on this Mac shouldn't require a "pro" machine. Nuff said.


Agreed on both counts. The loss of target mode is a HUGE loss, as is the ability to interface with your existing drives, video camera, etc. It's not the same as when apple pulled the plug on floppy drives as someone stated. By the time Apple pulled the plug on floppies and serial ports they were mostly un-needed and easy to work-around (with a USB floppy drive or a USB serial port), but FW is still a very viable interface option and there is no viable solution for macbooks to attach your "legacy" FW equipment to them, nor will there be any kind of dongle options. 

It's fairly straight forward ... if you want to buy a new macbook kiss all of your "older" hardware goodbye.

Let's hope Apple comes to their senses and puts at least one FW port back on the next refresh of the macbook line.


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## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

I've been following the reaction to the FW loss with interest. 

In my own opinion, this was one of those rare cases where Apple should have prepared clients in advance of ditching FW on lower-end models. Thankfully I have the most current last-gen MB for my recording stuff - but my I/O box is firewire, meaning I'd have to think carefully before purchasing a new one. 

I've owned a MBP in the past - still have one in fact - but went back to the MB because it was overkill for me, and too heavy to carry around all the time. It now sits around a lot. I'd sell it, but given what I'd paid for it, the price it would fetch now depresses me enough not to. 

MBA excepted, Apple now has a gap in their notebook lineup that was once filled by the 12"PB - a machine that is still in great demand on the used market. 

I for one lament the loss of the FW port. Worst of all is that I can't understand why Apple did this in their best-selling models of computers. It's the one model where giving the 'average' person just a little more for the buck pays off in loyalty down the road.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Perhaps the real gap in the Apple line-up will soon be filled by a roadworthy feature-filled subcompact that music and video pros can take with them: a 10 or 12" notebook that accommodates its killer specs with some body thickness if not brickness in order to accommodate USB2/USB3, FireWire 400/800/1600, an optical drive and all the rest of what's missing from the MacBook Air and now the brick Macs. I'd call it the "Mac toGo" or "MacGo." Or the "Road Apple."

There you go, Steve.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

chas_m said:


> I have to take issue with this one point. Most video cameras on the market right now still use FW, and of course almost all "old" (by which I mean "anything older than yesterday") camcorders do.
> 
> This is the part that infuriates people: you're not just buying a new computer, you are (literally) throwing out all your perfectly functional audio gear, your camcorder and potentially some of your hard drives. Not very "green" really, is it, to say nothing of the "hidden cost" of upgrading.
> 
> ...


I'm just happy I'm not the only one feeling this frustration. I think it's perfectly legitimate that they wouldn't have some features on their lower end machines but the fact that they didn't include the 6 pin at all just proves they are phasing it out. If it's because it's not fast enough, put a 9 pin on there and the rest of us will learn to get by with adapters and look to the future when we upgrade the consumer projects. Leave the 6 pin to the low end machines. But to classify firewire as a pro technology? You'd have to buy a 2" BIGGER, 1 LB heavier computer and an adapter, just to edit videos or capture from an external camera on iMovie that I can do on a 2 year old computer with ease. Lame. Agree with Chas_m and Mguertin completely.


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## Chealion (Jan 16, 2001)

Andrew Pratt said:


> I'd rather they just allowed users to plug an ethernet cable between the two computers for the migration....everyone has an ethernet cable


They already do. With the MacBook Air they updated Migration Assistant to allow you to copy files over your network. (MacBook Air: How to use Migration Assistant)

The ability to remove the hard drive so much more easily makes the loss of FTD (FireWire Target Disk Mode) a little bit easier to stomach but it will be sorely missed by myself as *the* way to do migrations and recover hard drives that won't mount on the original computer. Here's hoping the rev. A of the unibody MacBook along with the MacBook Air are the only Macs to have lost FireWire.



Macified said:


> By the time the floppy disappeared nobody was using it anyway


Many business and schools still used floppies and such, albeit they really shouldn't have given that they held so little and were so problematic. Networking was where it was at.


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## Macified (Sep 18, 2003)

MACinist said:


> So who is really going to switch back to PC over this? Probably not many. Meaning, Apple's decision on excluding FW on the MB's will probably have zero impact on their sales.


You'd be surprised. There is a growing community of OSX86ers who can easily install OS X on most current PC laptops. If I can't get a Mac that meets my needs in a decent price point (no matte screen option at all), I might be enticed to do it this way. Sure the "consumer" market that Apple is targeting won't consider this and, here in lies most of the frustration. Apple is targeting the new "switcher consumer" at the expense of it's loyal, repeat purchasing installed base. It's almost like they are saying that it's okay for us to be unhappy because the new crop of customers don't give a crap. "We may even loose some of you loyal customers but for every one of you who falls, we might pick up three or four switchers."


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

SJ seemed really proud during the recent keynote stating that half the purchasers in Apple Stores are new customers. Given the 10s of millions of Macs in circulation, shouldn't he be doing something to draw them into the stores? Or are the rest of us too happy to use our feature-rich Apple computers to order new ones that chip away at the feature set.

Don't get me wrong. I'm really, really happy with my Penryn February 2008 MBP 2.5Ghz C2D/250GB HDD/512MB VRAM/now with 4GB RAM. It runs cool, quiet, and does everything I need and far more. But I do like my FireWire choices, and do have FireWire peripherals.




Macified said:


> You'd be surprised. There is a growing community of OSX86ers who can easily install OS X on most current PC laptops. If I can't get a Mac that meets my needs in a decent price point (no matte screen option at all), I might be enticed to do it this way. Sure the "consumer" market that Apple is targeting won't consider this and, here in lies most of the frustration. Apple is targeting the new "switcher consumer" at the expense of it's loyal, repeat purchasing installed base. It's almost like they are saying that it's okay for us to be unhappy because the new crop of customers don't give a crap. "We may even loose some of you loyal customers but for every one of you who falls, we might pick up three or four switchers."


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## Billionairess (Jul 15, 2003)

Moscool said:


> Yup, I expect AAPL to tank today on two grounds:
> 
> - general correction of all tech stocks
> - realisation that the $999 price point is smoke and mirrors: the new laptops start at $1299 and that is very steep compared to the industry.


stock was up just under 2% today.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Macified said:


> You'd be surprised. There is a growing community of OSX86ers who can easily install OS X on most current PC laptops. If I can't get a Mac that meets my needs in a decent price point (no matte screen option at all), I might be enticed to do it this way.


Not surprised at all as I had an OSX86er on an HP Pavillion for a while but only as experimental. However, this is totally something that most still won't do. In relation to portables though, there is even fewer FW PC laptops out there. The one's that are around, are as expensive as the Macbook Pro's. But, I guess most PC laptops have PCMCIA/Express card slots, so you could get an adapter card easily I guess. But then you run into issues of OSX recognizing that adapter card... so it's not that great of an option right now unless you are just one of those types that enjoys the challenge. 

But once it's simpler, more reliable and legal, sure, I'd love to build a mini tower that Apples fails to deliver every year for me.


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## cdnbacon (Feb 26, 2001)

CanadaRAM said:


> It's not latency that is the problem -- and as you mentioned the latency is mostly in the AD conversion, not in the cabling standard of the interface.
> 
> The problem is that USB2 is worse at sustained, volume transfers, and it takes more % of the CPU power for management of the USB bus than Firewire does. This is significant when you are running tasks (like many tracks with VST plugins and instruments running at a low buffer setting) that are CPU bound.


No doubt when you're recording many (more than 8) audio tracks, firewire is king, but that is an application in which a MacBook *Pro* would be more appropriate, no? I have a hard enough time making a 32 channel interface fit on my MBP 17" let alone making it fit on a 13" screen! I can't imagine having to do intensive audio recording work that has the demands you mention on a MacBook even with a firewire interface built in, unless you're a hobbiest on a shoestring budget. If you are wanting to do sophisticated multichannel audio work and plan spend $1000+ on a multi-channel firewire audio interface, I fail to see the issue of spending a few hundred more to buy a MacBook Pro laptop that would more appropriate for such an application. For the market even the new MacBooks are aimed at, a USB interface (with 8 channels I/O or less) would be a more appropriate choice IMHO and well within the limits of what the hardware (eg USB2 interface) is capable of.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)




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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

HowEver said:


>


That was photoshopped...


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

USB cannot import into iMovie, if I'm not correct.


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## cdnbacon (Feb 26, 2001)

gadgetguy said:


> USB cannot import into iMovie, if I'm not correct.


From iMovie HD's help file: "Some camcorders may not have a FireWire port. For example, some cameras that produce MPEG-4 video use USB ports as video connections. Although you cannot import the video directly into iMovie HD, you can use the USB port to transfer your footage onto your hard disk, and then drag and drop your video clips into your iMovie HD projects." So essentially, your USB camcorder behaves like a storage device, you drag the appropriate video mpeg4 file to your hard drive, then work on it in iMovie.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Hmm, my boss bought a HD based camcorder and you had to use some crappy proprietary software to edit. So I think it probably depends on the exact camcorder.


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## cdnbacon (Feb 26, 2001)

gadgetguy said:


> Hmm, my boss bought a HD based camcorder and you had to use some crappy proprietary software to edit. So I think it probably depends on the exact camcorder.


Yeah, some manufacturers seem to have the need for fancy driver software to simply transfer files, when they could have put the effort into making their usb interface act like a memory device and given the end user a lot more flexibility. Some of the high end Sony stuff is notorious for this nonsense.


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## morespace54 (Mar 4, 2005)

For whoever is interested in Steve Jobs response...

http://www.edibleapple.com/steve-jobs-email-response-re-lack-of-firewire-on-macbooks/


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

morespace54 said:


> For whoever is interested in Steve Jobs response...
> 
> http://www.edibleapple.com/steve-jobs-email-response-re-lack-of-firewire-on-macbooks/


Alternatively, search out the post that precedes yours by 6 posts, above, in this thread (same source).

(btw we're slaughtering edibleapple's bandwidth)


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## Silv (Mar 28, 2008)

gadgetguy said:


> USB cannot import into iMovie, if I'm not correct.


Sure you can.. I'm copying files from my Sony HD camcorder via USB into iMovie.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

HowEver said:


>


Since when is a computer an investment?


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## biovizier (Dec 21, 2005)

If you're implying that the new MacBook is a toy, I'm inclined to agree.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Silv said:


> Sure you can.. I'm copying files from my Sony HD camcorder via USB into iMovie.


Copying or importing?

Thought so.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

MACinist said:


> Since when is a computer an investment?


It's a euphemism. We don't have to use/take the word literally.


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## eggman (Jun 24, 2006)

I've been thinking more about this design decision on Apple's part and realized that what bothers me most about it is:

Historically - these laptops are *not disposable*. (Maybe I should say "were" not disposable.)

Yes - it is an "entry level" laptop - consumer level.

In a Dell or some other Windows laptop - you would *not* expect a 5 year useful lifespan, at least not the way we have grown to expect that to a degree on the Mac.

I bought a copy of iLife 06 at Futureshop once, and the salesperson asked me what was so special about Macs. This was around the time when Vista was fresh and everyone was talking about the hardware requirements for it.

I held up the box and told the guy that one reason was that this *current* software was going to run in the *current* Mac OS on my* 5 year old computer* (it was an iBook G3 at the time) (Some of you will realize that this was an exaggeration - Garageband needs more - but mostly iLife 06 will work, it worked well enough for me anyway!).

What does this have to do with Firewire on the MacBook?... one of the reasons that these machines remain useful for so long, and maintain resale value for so long is they have flexibility and expandability. *The replacement of firewire with nothing diminishes that, and that diminishes the longterm utility of the tool.* It is a decrease in options.

I'd grumble privately if they'd dropped firewire for an eSata port (I have more FW items than eSata drives) but I wouldn't complain out loud. I wouldn't grumble if the FW was replaced with an expesscard slot on the MacBooks - that would give us some expandability and choice down the road - even though the cost to the end user would be increased (expresscards can be pricey - no I don't expect Apple to provide them!).

I'm hoping that this does not signal that Apple, in addition to using the same CPU's as other notebook makers, is going to grow into the same "disposable computer attitude."

In so many ways it is a loss in potential.

I won't buy one of the new MacBooks - I'll probably wait a bit longer, and then buy a refurbed MBP at around the same price point (probably less profit for Apple when you look at their carrying cost - though maybe not). In terms of my "carrying cost" I would often rather have something smaller than the 15" MBP...

For the smaller form factor applications where the 13" is nice... well, I've heard that with some effort OSX can be wedged onto one of those tiny and cheap Dells... yeah, I know that is questionable in so many ways - and it might not have functioning firewire once it is all done (though the chances are good that the hardware would be there!) - but it would probably be stable enough to type some documents on, and the loss of "potential" would be less.

It is a shame really - the new design and construction is awesome. They look built to last... but maybe not built for lasting utility.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I wonder if Apple will release a $99 ExpressCard with FireWire 400 for the new MacBook Pros?



.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

HowEver said:


> I wonder if Apple will release a $99 ExpressCard with FireWire 400 for the new MacBook Pros?


I think it's a safe bet someone will (actually, I think such a card already exists), and I'd say this is a great business opportunity for someone to bring out a small and inexpensive FW hub that goes from FW800 to (let's say) two FW800 and three FW400 ports. Sell that for $99 too and you've got a hit.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

C'mon people.... what's with the whining? You can still buy a MacBook with FW400. You can still buy a current generation Mac portable with FW800. What Apple has done is lousy but solid product differentiation. For the few people who give a damn, there is an option available.

Do people really think that Apple just does whatever SJ commands? There are focus groups, polls, etc. and they must have said dropping the FireWire from a MacBook was essentially a non-issue.

What you should be whining about is the price *increase*. The new unibody is not a reason to buy, it's a process. It was introduced with the MacBook Air, in any case, and so is not exactly brand new....

I finally pulled the trigger on a new MBP (2.8 GHz) because I'm still using a 1.67 GHz G4 15". It's gotten me through, has worked well and let me keep a low profile while programs were updated to be Intel-native but its hard drive has me worried and it will need a new battery soon, plus its only got 2 Gb of RAM, etc. The new generation laptops are only relatively small incremental steps by Apple (except in MacBook graphics performance). The overall design is still similar to the original aluminum powerbooks, over 5 years old (that replaced the TiPB). The next processor, Nehalem, due in 6-8 months, is supposed to be a rocket.

I do like the look of the new models and I hope this one will last me another 3 years but I don't see the point of complaining about a lost Firewire port when you can still buy Apple laptops with the port.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

HowEver said:


> It's a euphemism. We don't have to use/take the word literally.


 A euphemism still has to make sense. A rapidly devaluing product such as a PC is not categorized as an investment in itself unless maybe when purchased and resold for profit. In the context of his complaint, he is implying that they would be procuring the Macbook from a retailer for personal consumption. So what would the term "good investment" be a euphemism for? Saying a PC is a good investment, could be used when you are trying to be verbally ironic through sarcasm or overly dramatic (hyperbole - although a stretch) to which that probably fake complaint did not set a tone for. Any case, all replies relating (including mine) are irrelevant to your OP.  My bad.


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

MACinist said:


> A euphemism still has to make sense. A rapidly devaluing product such as a PC is not categorized as an investment in itself unless maybe when purchased and resold for profit. In the context of his complaint, he is implying that they would be procuring the Macbook from a retailer for personal consumption. So what would the term "good investment" be a euphemism for? Saying a PC is a good investment, could be used when you are trying to be verbally ironic through sarcasm or overly dramatic (hyperbole - although a stretch) to which that probably fake complaint did not set a tone for. Any case, all replies relating (including mine) are irrelevant to your OP.  My bad.


The investment is not supposed to be a direct financial return on a product but is meant to reflect the possibility that a good machine will save you time and money (allowing you to increase your earning potential) or allow you to earn money doing something you couldn't do before. Having said all that, it also does imply that there could be resale value if keeping up with the latest technology was of paramount importance.

Or at least that's my interpretation of said euphemism.


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## smellybook (Aug 31, 2006)

*I have never used any of the ports on my macbook in 2 years,*

if Apple is gonna start eliminating stuff, why not get rid of all the ports.
That would create a really nice sleek look.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

used to be jwoodget said:


> ...I don't see the point of complaining about a lost Firewire port when you can still buy Apple laptops with the port.


Have you not read anything above? It's great that you can still get a MBP with FW HOWEVER one thing people liked is having the excellent portability of the 13" machine with the options of the MBP 15". THAT'S what people (including me) are whining about.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

smellybook said:


> if Apple is gonna start eliminating stuff, why not get rid of all the ports.
> That would create a really nice sleek look.


Don't wish... it might come true! XD


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

gadgetguy said:


> Have you not read anything above? It's great that you can still get a MBP with FW HOWEVER one thing people liked is having the excellent portability of the 13" machine with the options of the MBP 15". THAT'S what people (including me) are whining about.


Yes, I did read the whines.  My heart bleeds for the those who want the latest models and who cannot bear to lug around an extra pound for the sake of a firewire port. Oh, but then you can also have your cake, buy an old generation MacBook which are still for sale (and cheaper than they were - for the Superdrive version).

Price is another matter. I think Apple should be offering some cut-down models given the economic uncertainty. The company seems as oblivious to the markets as our PM was a couple of weeks ago.

As for eliminating all of the ports, the MBA was down to three. I do use mine and I do like the idea of the 24" screen with three cables to hook up to the new laptops.


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## eggman (Jun 24, 2006)

used to be jwoodget said:


> Yes, I did read the whines.  My heart bleeds for the those who want the latest models and who cannot bear to lug around an extra pound for the sake of a firewire port. Oh, but then you can also have your cake, buy an old generation MacBook which are still for sale (and cheaper than they were - for the Superdrive version).
> 
> Price is another matter. *I think Apple should be offering some cut-down models given the economic uncertainty.* The company seems as oblivious to the markets as our PM was a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> As for eliminating all of the ports, the MBA was down to three. I do use mine and I do like the idea of the 24" screen with three cables to hook up to the new laptops.


Apple is offering a cut down model - the current MacBook! 

Sadly - the price is about the same for the purchasers who are getting less.
So Apple is protecting their per unit profit and not trying to get the volume sales to consumers that a lower priced unit might generate.

If the current MacBooks were the "low end" for $800 CDN and something with an expresscard slot or a FW port (in addition to the current ports) was the midrange/highend I wouldn't have any problem *with this trend*. As I mentioned earlier it is more the approach than the omission I have issue with.

When I'm buying a Mac I'm buying what I think is a quality machine that I intend to keep for quite a while. 5 or 6 years sometimes. Decreasing the flexibility of the computer decreases its useful lifespan for me.

If Apple keeps dropping features and thereby decreasing the useful lifespan of their machines soon we'll have a system with no ports, one button on the keyboard and an all white (glossy) screen: a complete "zen-like" computing experience where all choices are one and we have to go to Cupertino once a year to buy a new one.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

I see that as a tool and the investment is your career. Referring to a depreciating resale value is also not an investment to me. I guess I'm looking at the word too literally. 



cap10subtext said:


> The investment is not supposed to be a direct financial return on a product but is meant to reflect the possibility that a good machine will save you time and money (allowing you to increase your earning potential) or allow you to earn money doing something you couldn't do before. Having said all that, it also does imply that there could be resale value if keeping up with the latest technology was of paramount importance.
> 
> Or at least that's my interpretation of said euphemism.


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

smellybook said:


> ... why not get rid of all the ports.
> That would create a really nice sleek look.


Buy some sticky tape that is the same colour as your Mac. Stick carefully. Voila - the sleek look!!


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)




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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

I thought comics were supposed to be funny, not make you feel dead inside. :-( 
:lmao:


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Speaking of get a life (HOWEVER) this thread as been dead for three days! It honestly did not need to rise again!


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## greensuperman32 (Mar 28, 2005)

I have to admit, I found that comic pretty funny


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

At least the last pane. XD


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

Hahaha - that comic is hilarious. Please don't get offended gadgetguy - it's just hilarious!


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

gadgetguy said:


> Speaking of get a life (HOWEVER) this thread as been dead for three days! It honestly did not need to rise again!


Dead? Nobody has posted for one minute and then you yourself raised this thread from the ashes...

It's not like the thread died, for good reason, in 2005.

I think I'll bump it again when FireWire disappears from iMacs in a couple weeks...


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Actually, if you use these things called eyes, you'd see no one had posted for 3 days before your post.

Ah, if only this forum didn't have censors and moderators...


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Nobody disputed the timeframe.

As well, no one started a new thread to post a comic that fit this recent thread.




gadgetguy said:


> Actually, if you use these things called eyes, you'd see no one had posted for 3 days before your post.
> 
> Ah, if only this forum didn't have censors and moderators...


Bump.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

HowEver said:


> Dead? Nobody has posted for one minute and then you yourself raised this thread from the ashes...





HowEver said:


> Nobody disputed the timeframe.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

gadgetguy said:


>


Wow, just keep bumping... you quoted the joke answer.

Nobody disputed the 3 days to which you referred.


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Nobody posted for three days before you.

But w/e. Not going to argue any longer, waste of my time.


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## MACinist (Nov 17, 2003)

Bump. :lmao:


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## gadgetguy (Sep 27, 2007)

Bump. :lmao:


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

"Cam'd a girl yet?" had me rolling.

Jobs channelling Shatner -- an inspired moment for the JoT guys.

Still a little unhappy about the retrograde, but -- to be truthful -- my next Mac was going to be an MBP anyway. Plus, like the concept of gay marriage, this changes my present situation not one little bit, so I can't see getting _that_ emotional.

Bottom line: a year from now -- or less -- this will be a complete non-issue. Indeed, the FW geeks will all be sneering at us "toy" MacBook owners -- "whassa mattah, couldn't afford a REAL computer??" "Hey, where's the windup for this thing?"

And we'll _love_ taunting them, you know in your heart we will.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

FireWire Isn’t Alone: A Brief History of Features Apple Has Killed | Technologizer


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## Moscool (Jun 8, 2003)

HowEver said:


> FireWire Isn’t Alone: A Brief History of Features Apple Has Killed*|*Technologizer


Interesting reminder... Outside my video camera and 5 FW drives, what am I moaning about? Ah Yes, iTunes file synch: definitely much slower through USB2.

Anyway, there may be light a the end of the tunnel according our friends at Macbidouille: Apple has clearly upped the perf. of its USB hardware and, although Apple ports have traditionally been very slow compared to PCs, the latest machines have caught up and even overtaken their competitors. Here is a link for Francophones. The article also mentions a performance increase for FW800 connectivity, especially compared to that under Vista.

Doesn't solve the loss of Target mode though tptptptp


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

*"Blue Ocean Strategy"*

I found this reference to a blog post referencing the absent-FireWire topic, on another forum. Fairly interesting in this context.




> Jeremy Fain from the Tech IT Easy blog puts it nicely:
> 
> Wii doesn’t intend to be a best-of-breed videogame console. Nintendo is trying to bring non core gamers back to gaming [..] with the Wii. Wii won’t equal video game but Wii aims at meaning fun. Nintendo focuses on the consumer’s feeling rather than its product. (-> read post...)
> 
> ...


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## MrsMime (Sep 8, 2008)

That post made me want to go hug my wii. :lmao:


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

*WD My Passport Studio drives get FireWire 800*

Electronista | WD My Passport Studio drives get FireWire 800

Good news for us MacBook Pro owners, old and new:



> Western Digital released a new My Passport Studio portable drive with a high-speed FireWire 800 interface. The drive ships pre-formatted with HFS+ and includes high-speed turbo drivers for use with Mac computers, and is capable of working directly with the recently introduced Apple MacBook Pro as well as desktops equipped with the faster port. Other connection options include FireWire 400 and USB for owners connecting to legacy machines.
> 
> An illuminated capacity gauge tells users how much space is available in the drive, while power is also drawn from the FireWire or USB connection, making an AC power supply unnecessary. The new My Passport Studio can also be used to backup Mac laptops using Apple's Time Machine application; they can also be reformatted to work with the Windows OS.
> 
> Now available in stores and online, the 500GB My Passport Studio with the FireWire 800/400 interface is priced at nearly $250, while the 400GB model costs about $230.


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