# Bertuzzi vs. Moore



## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

I'm sure most of you hockey fans are by this point aware of Bertuzzi's actions in Monday nights game against Colorado. I'd like to hear some opinions on what they think will/should be dealt to him in terms of punishment.

[ March 16, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Pamela ]


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

Personally I'm somewhere in between the fact that Moore has a glass jaw, and Bertuzzi has thick skull. I'm up for trading him and his crap before tomorrow's deadline, but no one will want to pick up someone with a possible huge suspension looming (maybe that was Bertuzzi's plan the whole time? This sure makes him untradable! hehe).

Having said that, no one likes to see a sucker punch and the league has no choice but to make an example out of him. The only difference between Bertuzzi's actions and McSorley's (on Brasher a few years back) was that McSorley used his stick (which is seen to be significantly worse in the nhl than using your fist).

I say he's gone for the rest of the season. And if Colin's in a really bad mood that day, then 3 games into the playoffs.

No doubt though. This isn't the first incident like this and it won't be the last. Especially in a 9-2 game. Ouch!


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

I didn't see the punch, so i can't comment.

However, the thought of Bertuzzi being on "the block" is completely inaccurate. He will not be traded. The Canucks are Cup contenders (even with Cloutier), and Bertuzzi is an INTEGRAL piece of the puzzle. If he was available, 29 teams would be going nuts trying to acquire him.

The odds of Bertuzzi being dealt would be on par with the odds of the Leafs trading Brian Leetch.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

I love hockey, and the scraps/hard checks are seemingly part of it.

However, Bert's move was past cowardly. Just as with the Brashear incident: you want scrap, turn and face him and engage him like the warrior/man that you claim to be day in day out.

5 game minimum. 

This smells like that Dale Hunter Playoff hit - at least as brazen, premeditated...  

H!


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

Sorry Maximus. But I don't agree. First of all, it's going to be hard for him to be an "integral" part of the team while he's wearing his suit upstairs. Second of all, the integral Bertuzzi that you speak of has not been around this season. Last season yes, and the few seasons before that, sure. And those stats are why he got paid the big bucks this year. But this season he's been an overpaid joke. He already has less than half of the amount of goals he's had in the past two seasons (and his total points aren't any higher than any other year to account for this decrease). The only reason his +/- is so high is that he's on a line with a goal scorer. He's been taking bad penalties at the wrong times all season, and this last move he made sums up his season with a pretty pink bow.

If 29 teams are dying to aqcuire him then great. Just means we can get a far better player in return. Throw in a decent goalie with that trade too.

Comparing a Bertuzzi trade with a Leetch trade...?? Don't even get me started.

Oh, and here's a nice quote from Bertuzzi on the Moore/Naslund hit: *"That kid's a piece of (garbage)," said Todd Bertuzzi, who skates on Naslund's line.* 

I wonder what that makes Bertuzzi then?

oh and this is my favourite: *Todd Bertuzzi, who is Naslund's linemate, said
of Moore: "No way that punk will be in their lineup in March."*

...can you say premeditated?

[ March 09, 2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Pamela ]


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

Pamela,

I don't disagree that Bertuzzi can be a bonehead at times. However, he is one of the elite players in this league. You don't give up on someone (especially when they are Bertuzzi's age) after a sub par season. Its not like he is 35 and on the decline. He is 28.

He opitomizes the term "power forward". Now, if he can grow up a little and not take dumb penalties/suspensions, he could make it to super star status.

The Leetch comment was made, because the Leafs would not trade someone the were so desperate to JUST aquire. There is NO way Bertuzzi will be traded today. I would bet thousands on it.


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

BTW, i don't disagree. What he did WAS premeditated.

Thats painfully obvious.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

One thing's for certain: there's a *lot* more fighting going on in hockey this year


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

Hello,

Bertuzzi acted like a complete idiot. There was no reason for him to do that to Moore. Earlier in the game Cooke had a fight with Moore, which acted as the 'pay back' for Moore's hit on Naslund. Cooke stayed within the rules and acted like a professional hockey player, whereas Bertuzzi went way over the line and acted like a thug. Why not just attack Moore in the parking lot after the game?

Of course, all the blame for Moore's injury will be put on Bertuzzi, as it should, but I wonder if anything can be said for Colorado's coach who put Moore out on the ice when the score was 8-2 knowing that the Canucks, more or less, had nothing to lose and would be out for revenge?

FWIW McSorley was not "booted out of the league," but he was suspended for the remainder of the season. He was nearing the end of his career and being suspended lowered his perceived value to other teams in the league. He was also convicted of assault with a weapon.

James


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*You don't give up on someone (especially when they are Bertuzzi's age) after a sub par season.*

Obviously, you aren't familiar with the way that Vancouver Hockey fans think.

If I were a hockey player, I think I would avoid playing in Vancouver because there is no middle ground with the majority of the fans. If the Canucks are doing well, then they are loved. However, if they lose a game they are hated.

You don't give up on someone after one poor season (or, you know, one poor 2/3 of a season), Bertuzzi's got a lot of play left in him. Maybe this suspension he'll undoubtedly be receiving will give him the opportunity to think about where his priorities lie.

And as to the comments he made, why is anyone surprised? I'm sure he's a big teddy bear at home, but almost every time I read about him in the paper he's talking about roughing someone up (note: he's the power forward, that's his job (sub-note: of course, what he did last night was not in his job description)).


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

You absolutely give up on someone like Bertuzzi. Who in their right mind would support him or his actions of late?? He's been in the league 10 years, and that's long enough to know right from wrong. 

A couple of good seasons and some muscle doesn't make you an elite player, nor do his actions of last night. In fact last night erases any chance he ever had to be respected and thought of as an elite player in this league. He's mearly a meat headed thug.


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## rhino (Jul 10, 2002)

Check the poll results of the Globe and Mail sports poll here. web page 

Results rate a significantly greater suspension and penalty.

If McSorley vs Brashear previously rated a criminal charge, I can't see why this brutal assault on Moore should not also carry the same consequences. Will the same rules apply to a Vancouver player as they did to an opponent? Early suggestions say yes.


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## maximusbibicus (Feb 25, 2002)

Pamela, we should agree to disagree. I have never defended Bertuzzi's actions. I have just said that he is a good hockey player, and not just a thug. 

Todd Bertuzzi would be one of the top three forwards on 2/3's of the teams in the league. He deserves to be respected as a skilled hockey player...

...he also deserves a STIFF suspension for his actions.

PB: I know exactly what you mean about Vancouver hockey fans. Amplify them by 10x, and you have your typical Leaf fan. As a HOOKEY fan, i sure had high hopes of the Canucks doing well this year. After Bertuzzi's brain cramp, their chances just got much slimmer. 

Latest update is that Moore has to crushed vertabrae. Yikes.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Pamela, 

Don't get me wrong, what he did was pretty freaking stupid and definitely needs disciplinary action, but Bertuzzi (when he's not being dumb) is still a great player.

maximusbibicus,

Probably the same love 'em/hate 'em syndrome is present in the fan base of many an inconsistent team.

As for Moore's vertebrae, I can only hope he recovers, and that Bertuzzi learns his lesson. Regardless of how this turns out, I bet his perceived value takes a hit (forgive the terrible pun).


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## VertiGoGo (Aug 21, 2001)

Fire the entire league, promote the talented juniors and start the NHL from scratch...making it about the GAME again. 

Also slap on a salary cap that forbids ANY player from earning more than $1 million a year. 

As for that dreadful attack...arrest the bugger for assault and get on with the GAME...which (last time I checked) was supposed to be about fun, not fighting. 

Some bloody role-models most of those goons make for today's youth.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

i doubt moore will ever return to pro hockey
concussion, fractured neck

bartuzzi should be banned for life

moore's family should sue him

i'm tired of this lunacy in hockey
where is the players' union in all this?
always quiet. always about the dollars...
they should demand that players wear cages like in football
i am seeing 2-3 facial high sticks per game now


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

I have to say I was surprised at the reaction here. I didn't think people would be so outraged. (Not sure why I thought that now that I think about it). And it seems that Vancouver fans are in accordance if you go by the globe and mail's poll. (60% think he should be banned for at least the regular season as well as the playoffs). Nice to see that people think the nhl has crossed the line as far as occuring brutalities

It's never ceases to amaze me how one's life can change in an instant.

Hope it was worth it Bertuzzi, cuz you're sure going to pay.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

I just got back from day on road.... I found out only AFTER my post that the victim's of Bert's act of complete lunacy suffered a broken neck  

On the condition that the NHL has balls, here's is my new disciplinary verdict:

Minimum *one (1) year* suspension, or as long as it takes Moore to get back into the league, but I will not oppose a lifetime ban. Again, I like to look back to the Dale Hunter Job - 21 games. This is so much more serious....

Bone Head Bert hasn't even faced the music of the likely criminal charges. Just as with the Brashear hit, constabularies are looking into the matter. 

Lawsuit should follow - esp if Moore can no longer play again.  

This will be one to watch. Precedents will be set in this case. 

Bert will likely be another one to retire in complete disgrace, along with McSorley and The Beezer. What a complete idiot.

Q? had this occured in the streets, in a non pro sport setting, would Bert not be facing some jail time?? any lawyers here?

H!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Today's hockey more and more closely resembles professional wrestling.

Until they prune the NHL number of teams by half and get rid of goons like this, hockey will continue its slide to the square ring.

It's just not fun any more. Half of the players earning, nay collecting million dollar salaries are untalented jocks and at best high school dropouts.

The glory of the NHL is toast. Why not be honest like the World Wrestling people and simply call it entertainment.

It is no longer a sport.

Cheers


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> Hope it was worth it Bertuzzi, cuz you're sure going to pay.


Sorry Pam - could never be worth it. This could make a sports story of the year - esp depending on how things go with Moore. If Moore is forced to retire...  . Not many can return from a broken neck to play hockey again. Again this would have turned out so much differently had Bert faced Moore for the man dance. Instead, the blindside. 

Neck likely broke on impact of hittin ice, and to make matters worst, Bert was all over him afterwards. A lawyer might have a field day with this... Bert better pray there is no lawsuit. But I don't see why there wouldn't be. 

Can Avs sue for damages?

Police Investigate.

H!

[ March 09, 2004, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Ohenri ]


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

> Today's hockey more and more closely resembles professional wrestling.


The key difference is pro wrestling is based on calculated risk(s) between two or more "players" who work together to play out a match for the sake of "entertainment"*.


I think what happened was absolutely uncalled for IMHO, it was a sucker punch followed by a reckless and heinous move to seriously hurt Moore—Bertruzzi shoved his face into the ice for chrissake and wrestled to do even more harm while Moore was unconcious and defenseless!

I hope they press criminal charges. The NHL needs a serious overhaul on and off the ice starting with the fighting and salaries.

* One's definition of entertainment may vary from another's.


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## Garyola (Feb 6, 2003)

Burtuzzi was way out line. He should get the rest of this season including all playoffs, arrested and then Moore should sue him for every nickel he has, which I think Moore will do.
What Bertuzzi did was not hockey and should be treated like common assault and battery. It was not two consensual adults squaring off to fight. Burtuzzi broke his neck, jaw and gave Moore concussion, not to mention deep cut to the face.
If I was running the show he would get a lifetime suspension from hockey.

G


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## mbaldwin (Jan 20, 2003)

I just happened to turn to the game about five minutes before the incident. Very grim. As a long time hockey fan, I will be interested to see what happens tomorrow. 

I do wonder if the league could have prevented Bertuzzi's inexplicable brain cramp if they would have just given Moore a game or two suspension for the hit on Naslund. I don't care if it was clean. He viciously took advantage of Naslund's vulnerable state. The NHL had to know from Crawford's statements and history that his team would take matters into their own hands if the league turned a blind eye. The "payback" would likely have been less severe if the Canuck players felt he had received some punishment already.

And while the attack was premeditated, I do not believe that an intent to injure existed until the heat of the moment took over his judgement. Still, I feel that Bertuzzi should be out until next season.

I have been slowly becoming a Canucks fan since I moved here a few years back, but this has certainly set that back a bit.

And I do hope that Moore can recover from his injury, but it isn't going to be easy. I suffered a compression fracture in a vertebrate (T7) when I was young and not a day goes by that it doesn't bother me to some extent.

- Martin.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

moore's hit on naslund, although premeditated, was within the rules
it looked worse than it was because;
1. naslund wasn't looking
2. naslund "ducked" and this brought his head lower to where it caught the full brunt of the blow

bertuzzi's hit was a cowardly attack
a definite attempt to injure a player without the puck
premeditated
outside the rules
disastrous results

the NHL has long said that results should not dictate the penalty, and in some ways i agree - even if moore's didn't have a broken neck, bertuzzi should still be dealt with harshly
this is hardly the case

now one can understand why the NFL comes down so hard on coaches and players that so publicly criticize referees

crawford should also be interviewed and have his feet held to the fire and asked why bertuzzi did what he did
crawford will of course deny any prior knowledge, but perhaps it will make him think twice before he "authorizes" such a criminal act again

cause, effect, responsibility - it is what most of us are forced to live by everyday

welcome to Earth, Todd Bertuzzi


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM :



> moore's hit on naslund, although premeditated, was within the rules
> it looked worse than it was because;
> 1. naslund wasn't looking
> 2. naslund "ducked" and this brought his head lower to where it caught the full brunt of the blow


Is that you or a quote MACSPECTRUM?

Any doubt about the legality of this assault reminds us of the ones who claim the right to assault others in the name of religion, not that hockey isn't one.

Is it an NHL rule that the assault is legitimate because it came from behind?

If Naslund wasn't looking behind him why would he duck?

Is it against the rules to duck?

Naslund is culpable because he made it look worse than you think it was?



> the NHL has long said that results should not dictate the penalty, and in some ways i agree -


Is Moore's broken neck "collateral damage"?









Please explain! .... if only for the sake of kids looking for guidance before they put their necks up forever.

Much hockey (and football) is now about as exciting as watching lobsters in a tank.  

Moore will likely live with a titanium plate in his neck for the rest of his life.









[ March 10, 2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: macello ]


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## mbaldwin (Jan 20, 2003)

Erm...

Steve Moore is the player in hospital with a broken neck.

Markus Naslund is Bertuzzi's teammate and close friend that was injured by a borderline legal Steve Moore bodycheck a couple weeks back.

- Martin.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Hmmm, Macello, I think you're confusing the Moore-Naslund incident of several weeks ago, which Maspectrum is referring to in his last post, to the Bertuzzi-Moore incident of Monday evening.

As it goes, I agree with Macspectrum that the two incidents are substantially different. Naslund isn't culpable for suffering a concussion in the previous game, but had he kept his eyes open he would have seen the Moore hit coming and possibly ducked it completely. In Monday's game, Moore didn't have the luxury of seeing the blow and the subsequent piledriver coming. It was very much a cowardly act.

I used to look at basketball and wonder what people saw it in that made it more popular than hockey. But in recent years more and more I've look at the NHL and wonder what there is to watch in it any more.


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

I just went to nhl.com because I was curious to see what their stance was on this issue. What did I find? Practically NOTHING. I little link line reading "Bertuzzi hearing Wed." that led to a story that said he was having his hearing wednesday and he nor colin campbell were available for comments until after the matter has been looked at.

The BIG story was still the deadline trades. Any basically anything that didn't have to do with the issue.

A guy is sitting in a hospital with shattered vertebrae and trading is what the nhl finds important.

What a joke.

[ March 10, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Pamela ]


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

Hello,

I don't believe that the hit on Naslund was 100% within the rules as Moore stuck out his elbow. But, at most, it would have deserved a 2 minute minor penalty.

James


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*I don't believe that the hit on Naslund was 100% within the rules as Moore stuck out his elbow. But, at most, it would have deserved a 2 minute minor penalty*

Indeed, I've seen them hand out 5 minute major penalties for less.


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

I don't think there is any way to condone Bertuzzi's actions in this incident. I am at a loss over this one. How can such a brilliantly skilled hockey player lose it so completely? 

Some random thoughts...
I was watching an interview with Tie Domi and he said that unless you have been a professional hockey player you can't understand how emotions can be a overwhelming force in the play of the game. 

Just read in the paper that the coach of the Avs (Granato) was suspended for 15 games for a stick swinging incident when he played for the Kings. I didn't know this and it makes some of his post-game comments interesting.

The NHL has been very quiet about the role of the game officials (linesmen and referees). For people outside of Vancouver who might not have seen the previous Vancouver-Colorado game (after the Moore-Naslund incident) on TV, there was an absolute crakcdown on play, with penalties being called for *everything*. If 2 players met up, linesmen were instantly between them. In the Monday night game, there were numerous fights, scrums, and other penalties in the first and second period. In a blowout situation, you would think that the officiating would have recognized the potential for a big problem during the third period. My point: as Bertuzzi and Moore started up the ice from the face-off circle and it was clear that there was something going on to the point where Bertuzzi hit Moore near centre ice, why was there no whistle blown? Where were the linesmen who would normally skate in? I can't believe that the 4 on-ice officials had no view of this and the potential for problems. Any thoughts on the officiating in this incident? (And, this in no way gets Bertuzzi off the hook for his actions)

For those who feel an assault charge is required (I'm undecided), here's a couple of scenarios I've been thinking about:
What about a pitcher who throws up and out on a batter and hits him in the head? (I'm sure everyone can recall incidents where this appeared to be premeditated)
When a receiver/tight end is injured by a corner or safety when the receiver is clearly in a vulnerable position (i.e. an attempt to hurt the player when he is going over the middle, looking back for the ball, etc.)?
A QB is hit/thrown down/crushed and injured long after the ball is thrown?
A race car driver who tries to exploit a non-existent inside line in a corner or chicane and causes a multi-car accident/injuries


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

review completed...but no word of the time frame of a decision.

story

edit: Press conference Thursday 9am est.

[ March 10, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Pamela ]


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Profuse apologies for my confusion.









I stand corrected.

Not withstanding the exo-skeletal:


> Much hockey (and football) is now about as exciting as watching lobsters in a tank.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Is assault and revenge more important to the crowd than the game? 

Are the players playing the crowd more than the game?


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Just like I thought .... you don't make money playing hockey .... you make it playing the crowd.







: 


> "To the fans of hockey and the fans of Vancouver and for the kids that watch this game, I'm truly sorry," he said. "I don't play the game that way. I'm not a mean spirited person."


Hockey's new strategy?

Maim and Weep?!  








....time to cry big boy?


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

You doubt his sincerity Macello?


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Pamela,

Bertuzzi's obvious lack of true skill at playing the game is now a big problem for him and hopefully will end his career. 

I say hopefully and for the sake of hockey fans of all ages because the hooligans' thirst for vengeance and not for the sport ruled the obscene play. 

*But yes ... to answer your question ... the assault on Moore did obviously look quite sincere to all ... I don't doubt that one bit!*


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*Hockey's new strategy? Maim and Weep?!*

Macello,

While it's clear that Bertuzzi intended to hit the guy, I sincerely doubt he intended to hit Moore as hard as he did, nor lose balance and land on top of him, smashing his face to the ice.

At least you're consistent in your journey down the cynical path.

(As an aside, has anyone speculated as to whether the neck fracture came from the hit or the fall?)


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*Bertuzzi's obvious lack of true skill at playing the game is now a big problem for him and hopefully will end his career. *

Actually, Bertuzzi is very skilled, and that's not in question. The question is why did he use such bad judgement? Did he mean to hit Moore so hard?

I certainly doubt he meant to break the guys neck, but I guess sometimes that's how the cookie (or, before someone else says it, vertebra) crumbles.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> ...I had no intention of hurting you,"


a punch to the head from behind after following Moore for 8-13 seconds is not intent?

in today's age of spin doctors and player agents, it's not difficult to imagine someone "helping" Bertuzzi wtih that statement

it may be heartfelt, but you cannot un-ring a bell
what's done is done
time for repurcussions
i'll be waiting and watching the NHL's reaction to this terrible incident.

i wonder if Cherry will blame it on "the instigator rule?"


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> "If it's on the ice, the law shouldn't get involved".


i wholeheartedly disagree
perhaps if the players know that the law might get involved (with an example), they may curb their destructive behaviour
sort of like we all know if we speed we may get a speeding ticket and then may instead slow down
we may not, but at least there are repurcussions
someting sadly lacking in the NHL


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

many have already been blaming it on the instigator rule...and I have no doubt that Cherry will agree (although I know he will still be disgusted with Bertuzzi's actions and won't condone it in anyway).

Also, I think the jury's out on whether it was Bertuzzi's weight ontop of Moore that broke his neck or whether it was the 5+ punches to the back of the head that Bertuzzi supposedly gave him while down. (I have yet to confirm this as I haven't been able to find a clip of the incident...but I would assume, and hope, that it was his weight that caused it and not further pummeling)


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> I certainly doubt he meant to break the guys neck, but I guess sometimes that's how the cookie (or, before someone else says it, vertebra) crumbles.


could not that same logic be applied to drunk drivers?
nobody means to hurt someone after having a few beers....

it just doesn't wash
pro atheletes already get to do stuff we all would spend time in jail for (eg fighting)
when it comes to a "mugging", the line must be drawn

and where the hell is the NHLPA in all this?
Bob Goodenough seems very quiet


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

> Bertuzzi's obvious lack of true skill at playing the game is now a big problem for him and hopefully will end his career.


Macello, just curious how you would define "true skill at playing the game" and who you think fits this description.

Bertuzzi may not be the league's current role model for good behaviour, sportsmanship, or critical thinking but he is one of the most skilled players at his position. He was a league all star this year and he was top 10 in scoring last year.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*could not that same logic be applied to drunk drivers?*

Just to clarify, I'm not condoning Bertuzzi's actions in the slightest, I think they would be right to boot him out for the rest of the season, and probably the playoffs too[1]. I just don't think he meant for it to go down like it did.

I think he intended to hit Moore, but not to break his neck.

*"If it's on the ice, the law shouldn't get involved"*

It's a difficult call. What if it's a fight that both players drop their gloves for? I think though, that a line has to be drawn somewhere. McSorely needed the book thrown at him, Bertuzzi may yet get hit with the same book.

I personally don't think that they are all that Similar though, McSorely's attack on Brashear (and the severity of it) looked entirely intentional to me, whereas Bertuzzi's attack on Moore looked like it started out intentional and got way, way out of hand.

Of course, I only saw the whole thing once, I've seen that 3 second clip about a dozen times now, so maybe my memory isn't as accurate as it could be.

*[Bertuzzi] is one of the most skilled players at his position. He was a league all star this year and he was top 10 in scoring last year.*

He was an All Star last year too, and I think maybe the year before as well.

[1] I will admit though, that the playoff hopeful fan in me does hope he'll be back for the playoffs.

[ March 11, 2004, 02:46 AM: Message edited by: PosterBoy ]


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

It is my hope the "law" does get involved, even to the point of jail time or house arrest, because the NHL has proven itself woefully incapable of policing itself.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Bertuzzi gets suspended for this season and playoffs
next year to be determined
canucks get fined $250,000
mark crawford might shut his big yap next time


http://www.nhl.com/onthefly/news/2004/03/206088.html


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## Ingenu (Jun 4, 2003)

Bertuzzi is suspended for the rest of the season, including playoffs. He will know at the next training camp, next fall, is this suspension is extended. 

The team was also fined ($250 000).

Only have this link in french : http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/article/1,154,1881,032004,608884.shtml


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## Ingenu (Jun 4, 2003)

Gosh! Two minutes late...


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## Garyola (Feb 6, 2003)

> I personally don't think that they are all that Similar though, McSorely's attack on Brashear (and the severity of it) looked entirely intentional to me, whereas Bertuzzi's attack on Moore looked like it started out intentional and got way, way out of hand.


Once Bertuzzi loaded up that punch, his fist became a weapon. No different from the stick of McSorely. If I hit someone on the street from behind and break his neck, jaw and give him concussion, I go to jail. These were not two consenting adults dropping the gloves, this is a criminal attack on the ice or in the playground or on the street. Because Bertuzzi shows some kind of remorse does not make what he did to Moore any less severe. The law should be involved.
What if Moore had died? That could have happened with that kind of blow to the head. Do you keep it all on the ice then?
Where is the line drawn?


G


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Well .......* Bertizzi's out for this and possibly the next season!*  

I hope it kills his career.



> Actually, Bertuzzi is very skilled, and that's not in question. The question is why did he use such bad judgement?


PosterBoy, you say that skill is not judgement?







His lack of skill as an "enforcer" is why he's screwed himself!

There are many successful and skillful "enforcers". Bertuzzi is not one of them.



> At least you're consistent in your journey down the cynical path.


Ask Bertuzzi about his journey down the cynical path while he's cleaning out his locker.









Your desperate attempt to excuse Bertuzzi's career flusher is truly cynical.

To separate skill and judgement in this matter is like saying that because you were going too fast to stop at the red light doesn't mean you lack skill as a driver.









Kami,


> Macello, just curious how you would define "true skill at playing the game" and _who you think fits this description._


True skill would be better skating ability than Bertuzzi had at the time.
True skill would be better judgement than Bertuzzi had at the time.

True skill does not give rise to criminal investigation.

Any "enforcer" or other NHL player not in Bertuzzi's current position would fit the description of a better skilled or truly skilled player. Want names?

I ask you .... What does "All-Star" count for in his predicament?

[ March 11, 2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: macello ]


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

The term that ruined hockey for me:

"enforcer"

If the game was played as it should be, there would be no need for fights, or "enforcers".

The all-star game with no hitting and end to end play is real entertaining hockey and it should be played that way all season long IMHO.

Cheers


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

let's look for a minute at the psychology of the hockey player
ready to get into a fist fight with anyone with a different coloured jersey
but
if he is traded he will figh with members of the very same team he used to 'defend' with his fists

too many hockey players are far to short tempered and mean spirited on the ice

this is bred from the days of junior when "toughness" is the metaphor for "fighting"
get rid of fighting in the lower leagues and you will see it disappear higher up
also, leagues MUST deal harshly with offenders like Bertuzzi

yes, i know it's a violent game, but when your thought process changes from "delivering a check" to "bashing his brains is" it's time to change


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

We demand that Hockey players play "on the edge". It is critical to the game and the speed at which it is played.
It happened, it was incredibly ugly. The question that is not being addressed is how it got so out of control.

The answer, ultimately lead back to league itself. While the coach and GM and players were railing about the origional hit on Naslund and "putting Bounties" on Moore's head the league should have acted. The coach and GM should have been penalized and Brad May given a couple of nights off for his comments. Message sent.

The other reality is that Marc Crawford has alot of difficulties controling his behavior and emotions. This in turn, reflects in the teams overall behavior and ultimatley team performance.

Cooler heads should have prevailed, but there were no cooler heads. A stiff check on Moore should have been the retribution. Even a fight, which did happen but solved nothing.

You wouldn't have seen this happen in Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa or Montreal. Management put boundaries on there own behavior and in turn those teams act with increased responsibility.

And before all Vancouver fans jump all over me, I do think Crawford and Burke have done a great job. There does come a time when you have to shut up and act like adults.

This commentary in no way is meant to deflect responsibility from Bertuzzi. He is ultimately responsible and should pay a price.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Bertuzzi made his first public appearance since the incident tonight.

<blockquote>http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1078921465240_20///?hub=TopStories

Back in Vancouver on Wednesday night, Canuck player Todd Bertuzzi spoke to a crowd of reporters at GM Place. But he addressed his first comments directly to his injured opponent, Colorado Avalanche forward Steve Moore.

"Steve, I just want to apologize for what happened out there. But I had no intention of hurting you," he said, his face red with emotion.

"I feel awful for what transpired."

[...]

"I'm relieved to hear that Steve's going to have a full recovery. It means a lot to me to hear that's going to happen," he said.

After apologizing to Moore's family, the Canucks organization and his teammates, Bertuzzi struggled to stay at the microphone.

After turning his back to reporters, to wipe a stream of tears from his face, the NHL right winger managed one final message.

"To the fans of hockey and the fans of Vancouver and for the kids that watch this game, I'm truly sorry," he said. "I don't play the game that way. I'm not a mean spirited person."</blockquote>


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## khummsein (Sep 12, 2003)

ugh...bertuzzi should go to jail & be kicked out of the league for life.

absolutely disgusting. with all the rhetoric leading up to the game, yes the league should have stepped in ane MADE SURE bertuzzi acted like a human being.

but he DIDN'T. and through the entire "apology" session, he apologized for "the incident" and "that this happened." if he had actually TAKEN responsibility for his actions, maybe i could take his apology seriously.

the spin that he wanted to put on this incident is that it wasn't really HIM, some disembodied, vengeance-crazed spirit took over his body and FORCED him to break the poor guy's neck.

what really gets me is that the NHLPA is probably going to end up on BERTUZZI's side. What about steve moore?

i think damien cox said it best: in football, a huge DB can absolutely CREAM a running back. then he gets up into the huddle, and they go to the next play. the offensive linemen don't immediately drop their helmets and start beating the crap out of each other. it's not tolerated. it's a CIVILIZED game. so NHL, wake up. kick bertuzzi out for life, help the police FULLY with their investigation, and outlaw vigilante justice.


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

harsh video clip.

Human remorse is an interesting thing. One can entirely believe that an individual is remorseful....but does it matter in the end? The deed has already been done. 

Think about the last time you felt that much remorse for something you had done to somebody. What would have been an appropriate punishment for the crime? Was the guilt enough?Is punishment redundant?


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Petie's got it right.

Talk of bounties on a player like May's and commentary akin to Crawford's deserve hefty fines.

Hockey's a tough, rough game but players should be encouraged to take "revenge" by putting more effort in the game and not into exacting punishment upon an opponent.


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## BabeBetty (Nov 5, 2001)

I'm surprised by a few people I've talked to who believe that, in a nutshell, "If it's on the ice, the law shouldn't get involved".

I'm not a hockey fan, but are there any fans out there who feel the same way?!

My biggest concern about that scenario is the liklihood of attracting absolute sociopaths into the world of professional hockey! Wouldn't this give lunatics the license to murder and maim with immunity?! There ARE a number of disturbed people out there.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> the spin that he wanted to put on this incident is that it wasn't really HIM, some disembodied, vengeance-crazed spirit took over his body and FORCED him to break the poor guy's neck.


his comments were lawyer driven in case he goes to criminal or civil trial

"the devil made me do it!"









the sooner goons get out of hockey, the better
it has to start at the grass roots level with a new healthy respect for players

the NHLPA looks like a bunch of money hungry jerks for not coming down on Bertuzzi and his like
why doesn't the NHLPA promote full cages (like lacrosse)?
goalies used to not wear masks
players used to not wear helmets

NHLPA should not only be protecting the negotiating rights of their players, but also a less dangerous workplace

only hockey condones fighting with a 5 minute penalty
only hockey do all the players have a weapon "stick"
add in some crazy people and you have a dangerous recipe


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## Wolfshead (Jul 17, 2003)

I'd love to participate in the discussion - especially as everyone everywhere seems to be talking about this incident but can't as I still haven't seen it. (Before anybody asks - yes, maybe I have been on another planet.) Are there any clips available on the 'net?


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

Colin Campbell is a suck.

The remainder of the season + playoffs? Let's not forget that VAN was picked to do well last year as well, and were dealt with in the 1st round. I feel that playoffs should not factor in the games missed. "He might miss as many as 41 games" y, if they for far. NHL showed that they have no idea how do discipline it's own. 

This incident goes well beyond a suspension. "They'll meet again @ the start of next season". What for? 

Here's what we know:

Premed attack
Serious Bodily harm (very serious)
Hella witnesses
May have ruined another player's career.

What more do they need?

Colin should have imposed a stiff suspension - ie @ the very least *half the REGULAR season*, and then meet again before his return. Additional penalties would hinge on Moore's condition. Campbell proved to have balls about as hard as freshly baked Timbits®.

There should be legal dealings here... But the NHL is asking the police to consider what they have imposed to Bert as well in deciding what to do. 

What the hell for? To prove that he's been through a bunch? Had this occurred @ any street bar on earth - Bert would likely be in jail right now. 

 

Brutal.

H!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

just watched Brian Burke's (Vancouver GM) press conference

arrogant bastard and that's being nice about it
blamed the media for Bertuzzi's current mental state
"just a mistake in a few seconds" is how he categorized the incident

tried to blame the other players that fell on Moore for his injury
talked about what a great husband Bertuzzi is

non-apologetic
said that his "meek response" to the NHL's decision is so that he can plead for Bertuzzi to play next year

remember that Burke was in charge of discipline when Lemiuex smashed that Detroit player's (Draper?) face into the boards and Burke only gave him 2 games
we see what Burke thinks about violence

Burke also said it was ludricous that the team was fined
claimed they had no culpability

said; "we have players to do 'that'" (being goons) "why would we send Bertuzzi out there?"

Burke's attitude is typical of the "old school" hockey mentality
we'll see what Cherry says on Saturday night


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Ohenri,


> May have ruined another player's career.


Thanks for noticing!  

Does Moore's attorney go after Bertuzzi or the Canucks for ordering the hit?


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

> Let's not forget that VAN was picked to do well last year as well, and were dealt with in the 1st round


Hello,

Apparently, you forgot. Vancouver was eliminated in the 2nd round last year in their 14th playoff game.

James


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

looks like Bertuzzi has had some "issues" in the past
remember what i said about a violent culture in junior players?

_"He has always had that hair trigger," said Mike Kelly, who was Bertuzzi's general manager in junior hockey and now runs the Windsor Spitfires. "Unfortunately, it went off the other night."
...
"He wanted to make a point," said his teammate, Markus Naslund, maybe the best player in the NHL.
"That you don't hit our players."
Some point.
...
Like the time in 1991, playing in the Northern Ontario midget championships, when his team was beaten out in the finals by Sault Ste. Marie and he chased the winning team's bus out of the parking lot, swearing and pounding on the windows, out of control.

The next year, his first in the Ontario Hockey League, Bertuzzi missed the end of that season and the beginning of the next when he was suspended 15 games for kicking a Kitchener player.

The year after that, in his own locker room, for no apparent reason other than jealousy, he punched out teammate Jeff O'Neill, who at the time was Guelph's prized first-round pick.

In the NHL, Bertuzzi punched linesman Jean Morin in a 1996 scuffle and ended up suspended for three games before losing 10 more games to suspension for jumping the bench to attack a Colorado player in 2001.

That is a long and nasty docket for a supposed skill player. There are other stories out there and when asked about them earlier this season in Toronto, Vancouver general manager Brian Burke answered: "That's a lot of bull(crap)."
_

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2004/03/11/377931.html


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

Some additional thoughts I posted before but didn't get much feedback. I am interested in the comparison between these incidents & Bertuzzi's attack and how everyone perceives them.

--- start ---
What about a pitcher who throws up and out on a batter and hits him in the head? (I'm sure everyone can recall incidents where this appeared to be premeditated)
The batter who attacks the pitcher for said bean ball
When a receiver/tight end is injured by a corner or safety when the receiver is clearly in a vulnerable position (i.e. an attempt to hurt the player when he is going over the middle, looking back for the ball, etc.)?
A QB is hit/thrown down/crushed and injured long after the ball is thrown?
A race car driver who tries to exploit a non-existent inside line in a corner or chicane and causes a multi-car accident/injuries 

Will we say the same things that are being said here when incidents like this happen in other sports?


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## khummsein (Sep 12, 2003)

> What about a pitcher who throws up and out on a batter and hits him in the head? (I'm sure everyone can recall incidents where this appeared to be premeditated)
> The batter who attacks the pitcher for said bean ball


kick both out of the game, which is usually done. suspend the pitcher. furthermore, bench-clearing "brawls" in baseball should result in stiff fines for BOTH teams involved (as well as individual players)



> When a receiver/tight end is injured by a corner or safety when the receiver is clearly in a vulnerable position (i.e. an attempt to hurt the player when he is going over the middle, looking back for the ball, etc.)?


different situation. there's always an "intent to hurt" in contact sports -- it makes the guy think twice before doing it next time. but there's a HUGE difference between "intent to hurt" and "intent to injure." blows to the head, clipping and fighting (intents to INJURE) are severly dealt with in football. no one's suggesting we take hitting out of the game.



> A QB is hit/thrown down/crushed and injured long after the ball is thrown?


immediate 15-yard penalty if you even TOUCH him. these are the EXISTING rules. outrage & suspension if you hit him hard, and it doesn't happen to often (wonder why?







)



> A race car driver who tries to exploit a non-existent inside line in a corner or chicane and causes a multi-car accident/injuries


interesting...i dunno. i imagine there are severe penalties for unsafe driving, but i'm not clear on the rules there...



> Will we say the same things that are being said here when incidents like this happen in other sports?


we do. we just hear about them more in hockey, partly because we live in canada, and partly because the league thinks that people will STOP watching hockey if the REFS handle the justice rather than the players. back-asswards, if you ask me.


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

Weapons in sports? How about box or field lacrosse? Now that is a violent sport!

Al Strachan wrote a good article that followed up on the article cited by Macspectrum

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2004/03/11/377929.html


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

box lacrosse is just plain nuts

from the Strachan article; "The record of the accused. Bertuzzi is in real trouble on this front. He's a habitual offender with a string of suspensions to his name."

so is Bertuzzi still such a "gifted" player or just a goon with a scoring touch a la Bobby Clarke, Doug Gilmore, Bill Barber, etc?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*Your desperate attempt to excuse Bertuzzi's career flusher is truly cynical.*

Macello, in case you missed it, I already said that I don't like nor condone what Bertuzzi did. Way to take quotes in context. I'm not trying to excuse the hit nor the result thereof, I am questioning whether Bertuzzi really meant to do as much damage as he did.

*To separate skill and judgement in this matter is like saying that because you were going too fast to stop at the red light doesn't mean you lack skill as a driver.*

Actually, I know lots of people who are very, very skilled at driving, and a few of those who are very stupid when they are on a populated road.

Skill and judgement go hand in hand, but I don't believe they are necessarily one and the same. Just because you can weave your car in and out of traffic at 100+ KM/Hr doesn't mean you should.

So, again the question is why would a player with the amount of skill that Bertuzzi possesses make such a bad judgement call?

*the spin that he wanted to put on this incident is that it wasn't really HIM, some disembodied, vengeance-crazed spirit took over his body and FORCED him to break the poor guy's neck.*

To play devils advocate for a second, maybe it did? Have you ever been caught up in the heat of a moment? People do a lot of things that they normally wouldn't when emotions take over. Why do you think there are different levels of charges when you kill someone?

Again, not to excuse what Bertuzzi did or the resulting injuries to Moore, but it's not that unbelievable an argument, juries across the continent believe it all the time. Of course, it could also just be spin. My guess is that there are only a couple of people who know for sure (Bertuzzi and one or two other players on the ice) and none of them are going to talk.

*only hockey do all the players have a weapon "stick"*

Unless you count Ringette (or whatever it's called), Lacrosse, and a few others as well.

*[Burke] blamed the media for Bertuzzi's current mental state*

Why is this so unreasonable? Despite whatever happens from here on out, millions and millions of people have already judged him guilty. 

For arguments sake, imagine for a second that you were in his place, that you meant to hit the guy sure, but break his neck? I doubt it. Now imagine that no matter what you say everyone has already decided you did mean to break his neck because you are a sadistic bastard. What kind of effect might that have on you? He is human & he does have emotions just like the rest of us.

It's kind of like accusing any man in the public eye of rape. It doesn't matter whether he did it or not, it's the accusation that does the damage. It doesn't matter whether Bertuzzi meant to break Moore's neck, the fact that it happened has done the damage.

In conclusion, (for the third time), I don't want to excuse what Bertuzzi did but I would like some people to at least try to see what happened from other points of view.


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## khummsein (Sep 12, 2003)

in any situation, there's the possibility that it was caused by body-possession. i would say the facts lessen that probability significantly:

1) previous history

2) clear motive to hurt the victim, coupled with implied threats by the entire organization

3) the chance to act in the previous game (which was closely contested), or even earlier in this one. he waited until it was 9-2 for the opposing team, then came up behind him, wound up, and cuffed him in the back of the head. when moore down on the ice, bertuzzi wound up again, before being tackled out of there. nikolishin might have saved the kid's life.



> For arguments sake, imagine for a second that you were in his place, that you meant to hit the guy sure, but break his neck? I doubt it.


i would phrase it, "he didn't mean for the end result to be that his neck was broken." i do think he meant to injure him. concuss him, then pound his face into bloody bits. that's what i take from the replay.

pb: i know you're playing devil's advocate, but plays like this make me feel like a bloody savage for liking hockey


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

I think almost every Hockey game I watch makes me feel like a savage, especially those between Vancouver and Colorado.

Also, re: the face on the ice, I am not so sure from the replay footage that Bertuzzi is so much smashing Moore's face to the ice as he is trying not to fall.

In other words, I don't think smacking Moore's head into the ice was intentional. While this isn't enough to acquit him of what happened by a long shot, it might at least help his case. If Bertuzzi and Moore had collided and the same thing happened it could have been written off as a terrible accident.

Since Bertuzzi didn't just collide with Moore though, there is no debate that the incident wasn't an accident, just questions as to how far Bertuzzi meant to take it.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Weapons in Sport - Baseball = Bat and Ball
Both have been used as weapons on an alarmingly regular basis. It all boils down to intent. If you use a hockey stick with an intent to injure, it is a weapon. To say that hockey is the only sport played with a weapon is ludicrus.
A hockey stick is a hockey stick. Only motive and intent can make it a weapon.

I hate to disagree with you Macspectrum but Bertuzzi is a gifted hockey player. He is a highly skilled player with a behavior issue. You can't confuse one with the other. You take hockey away, he has a behavior issue. You take the behavior issue away, you are left with a gifted hockey player. Simple as that


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

> He is a highly skilled player with a behavior issue. You can't confuse one with the other. You take hockey away, he has a behavior issue. You take the behavior issue away, you are left with a gifted hockey player. Simple as that


Since behavior is controlled by the brain, I assume he has one.

What do you have when you take the brain away?

A hockey player.

Simple as that.

Cheers


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

PosterBay, I disagreed.

To my mind Bertuzzi absolutely intended to smash Moore's face into the ice and hold his victim's head down while he courageously pummelled him with a few more blows to head.

And no, he didn't intend to break his neck, but that was the result of his intentional actions and the result could have been far worst had another Colorado player not stopped him from repeatedly hitting the unconscious Moore in the head.

Bertuzzi's record of violent behaviour speaks for itself.

Save your sympathy for someone who deserves it.


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

quote: 
What about a pitcher who throws up and out on a batter and hits him in the head? (I'm sure everyone can recall incidents where this appeared to be premeditated) 



> kick both out of the game, which is usually done. suspend the pitcher. furthermore, bench-clearing "brawls" in baseball should result in stiff fines for BOTH teams involved (as well as individual players)


Why wouldn't we insist on crimminal charges here? A pitcher on the mound has more time to consider his action - premeditation, weapon

Side question: Which sport has had the most bench clearing brawls in the last 5 years?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

So I am watching the replay at EPSN.com.

Bertuzzi comes up from behind Moore, grabs him and punches him in the back of the head.
They fall down, Bertuzzi on top of Moore, difficult to tell if it's Bertuzzi pushing or Moore falling and Bertuzzi being dragged down, but Moore hits the ice face first.
Bertuzzis' hand comes up once more and it looks like he makes contact with Moore head again, but it's hard to tell if he's trying to hit the guy or grab onto something solid. It's a moot point though because about .5 seconds later there's another Avalanche players on top of Bertuzzi, who happens to be on top of Moore with his arm on or near Moores neck.

Sorry, I don't see the repeated hits that a lot of people are talking about, and they show it from two angles.

Here is the URL to the video, it doesn't seem to want to open in WMP, but MPlayer can handle it streaming. Copy the URL, File Menu->Open Location in MPlayer & paste.

http://mfile.akamai.com/10474/wmv/espn.download.akamai.com/10474/200439123540287.wm8_100k.espn_page.wmv


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Which sport has had the most bench clearing brawls in the last 5 years?


i would bet baseball (pete rose)
Back in the world series NYY vs. NYM, Roger Clemons should have been tossed for throwing what was left of Piazza's bat back at him

Clemons excuse; " I thought is was the ball."

Moron.
Yeah, Cy Young award winning pitcher, 3x no less and he can't tell between a bat and a ball.

Make the pitchers go up to bat. I bet you'll see a lot less beaning. And I'm tired of over paid DHs.


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## mbaldwin (Jan 20, 2003)

Disclaimer: I am relatively new to the city and I am not (yet) a Canucks fan.

I have never liked Bertuzzi's attitude, but I don't think he's nearly as evil as some are making him out to be. There is a valid case that he is a bit unstable, but so are half of the other players in the NHL and a good number of drivers I see during rush hour.

Humans get mad and do stupid things. Sometimes extremely stupid things.

I am not trying to excuse what Bertuzzi did. But I sincerely believe that this player (whom I do not respect all that much) did not intend to maim Moore. I'd explain why, but most people would likely skip over it or be too prejudiced to think about it.

Regardless, he must pay the price for his actions. And in this case the price is:
- Suspended until September, costing him $500k
- Loses a previously legitimate chance to win a championship - likely the biggest goal of his life
- A piece of his soul (unless he truly is a monster)

The league's punishment was exactly what I thought it should be. And I bet one of the reasons he has to apply to be reinstated next year is to ensure he takes measures to keep his rage in check.

- Martin.


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## mbaldwin (Jan 20, 2003)

Macnutt:

Brian Burke described the exact nature of the injury (according to the doctors) during his press conference, and is likely accurate.

Moore did suffer two broken vertebrae, but the fractures were to the "spurs" (not sure of the real medical term) on the back of the spine. His spinal cord shows no bruising or damage at all. He also suffered a concussion (I'm unsure of the severity) and numerous facial lacerations and abrasions.

Burke asked what the typical rehabilitation time was and was told six weeks. But I take that with a grain of salt. I feel it's too early to tell.

But the description lends me to believe that fractures were likely a result of the fall and/or the weight that fell on him. And Bertuzzi's ears were right there and I am willing to bet that he heard the snapping when it happened.

 Bad memories of my own sports injuries flooding back... *shudder*

- Martin.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> then what would all of you think about the severe punishment that has been dealt out to Bertuzzi and the Canucks?


even though the injury should not affect the punishment, in reality it does
nonetheless, bertuzzi got what he deserved and hopefully the NHL has realized that it is high time to get rid of this type of "goon hockey"

Bertuzzi has a history of "doing stupid things"
We all have to pay the piper sooner or later.
marc crawford behaved stupidly by inflaming the situation both in front of cameras and behind closed doors

Bertuzzi should just count his lucky stars that Moore wasn't killed or crippled.

Hopefully sitting out the season and the playoffs will give Bertuzzi pause for thought, something that he obviously doesn't do much of - pausing for thought, that is.

in the final summation, the league and the all-too-silent players union need to get rid of this type of player and play

i would bet that U.S. fans would also start coming back - something bettman really wants
in the U.S. NHL has dropped below arena football in tv ratings


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Just checked with my insider buddy and he states, with total clarity, that Moore "Does NOT have any sort of broken neck"...and that he will be released from hospital in a day or two.

Again, I HAVE to state that this is just some data that I have gotten from a buddy on the inside. I have NO idea how valid or true it might be.

But..if it is fact, and if Moore is seen to be walking around in public with just a few bruises next week....

Then what do all of you think about the huge fine and major suspension time that Bertuzzi and the Canucks have had to deal with?


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## khummsein (Sep 12, 2003)

the entire situation, coupled with the video evidence, are what make my views. i actually liked bertuzzi before, as i did not know of the crazy incident in junior, and he seemed a rugged, tough, skilled winger who played for a canadian team (didn't watch all that many canucks games). but that's beside the point. 

he had 110 minutes of game time to do something before the fact, and the outcome of the game was NOT in doubt. after the sucker punch, whether or not he jammed the man's face into the ice, he clearly intended to hit him again. if you'd like to explain, please lift this "prejudice" from my eyes.

headline from star sports today: "does someone have to die?" it's really unfortunate that it takes something as scary as this to cause an uproar, but let's STOP it now, no? todd bertuzzi has made a rather good living from playing hockey. After the police and courts have determined what more he should pay, he's perfectly free to continue to make a living.

i just think it should not be in a hockey arena. players count on other players NOT to do things like this, because there are a hundred opportunities per game to do so. he crossed the line, and THIS time, he got caught. he's gotta pay the piper.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

i believe i already answered that question
please read my post
INTENT is the important thing here
pre-meditated

as i said, bertuzzi is LUCKY he didn't kill moore

if you are a drunk driver and hit someone and they are in hospital, but recover you are still facing serious charges
if the victim dies you are facing vehicular manslaughter charges

poll from Buffalo ABC 97% of viewere that participated in a poll said that atheltes are responsible for their on field actions


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

No question that Bertuzzi "lost it" in the dying minutes of a failing game against the Colorado team. He decided...for whatever reason...to go after the guy who had badly slammed his best buddy in a previous game.

It was a cheap shot. No question about that at all.  

But there DOES seem to be some question about the extent of Moores "injuries". Initially, we heard that he had a broken neck (in TWO places!) and broken jaw.

Now we are hearing that it wasn't quite that severe at all.

And my inside sources claim that he has NO broken bones at all...and that he will be realeased from hospital in the next few days. Walking and talking on his own, with just a few bruises.

If this is actually the truth...then what are your thoughts on the rather severe penalties that Todd Bertuzzi has been given?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*It was a cheap shot. No question about that at all. But there DOES seem to be some question about the extent of Moores "injuries". Initially, we heard that he had a broken neck (in TWO places!) and broken jaw.*

Actually, I never heard that he had a broken jaw, just cuts to the face and a fractured vertebrae (and no spinal cord damage).

One possible reason that he may be out of Vancouver General in the next few days is that they were planning on transferring him to a hospital in Denver once he was stable enough for travel.


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

I heard about the broken jaw on a sports website (tsn or espn...can't remember).

I also heard today on the radio that the injuries weren't as extensive as once thought and that he'd be back in the lineup within 4 weeks.

They interviewed Howie Meeker on tonight's news and he had a different perspective on the incident. He believed that Bertuzzi was "set up" by the media and that the entire thing was "blown out of proportion". But he also agreed with most in the view of violence in hockey saying that it starts in the minors as soon as you introduce body contact and these kids are trained to be aggresive, tough and physical from this point on.

Think about how coaches etc, must have drooled when they saw a big, strong and talented guy like Bertuzzi come to them. Don't tell me for a second that organizations and coaches aren't responsible for their players. They are the ones that not only condone tough behaviour, but continue to TRAIN them and DIRECT them to do what they do from the age of a child to older adults. But where are these people when something "goes wrong"? "Who...US? We had NOTHING to do with this....he just 'snapped'!"

It reminds me of a kid that's been abused his whole life and then finally freaks out and shoots his classmates and the community and parents take no responsibility for the kids actions.

You've got to start young with these kids and the sport of hockey has to be serious about where the line is drawn and NEVER let that line be crossed and let these kids KNOW this from a young age. No more of this changing rules every couple of years because ratings are suffering or they want to make the game more exciting. Instigator, no instigator, goalie interference, a little goalie interference, 1 ref, 2 refs, (20 refs wouldn't help because they are all so inconsistant in the calling of the game anyway).

I don't remember a time when hockey was so inconsistant, so unorganized, so messed up. Maybe it's because I was younger and didn't notice, but it just seems to have lost it's way somewhere along the line.

Anyway. That's my more recent thoughts on it.

Ironically, I used to really dislike Bertuzzi....but after this whole thing I think I actually might miss seeing him on the ice. I don't know what that's all about.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*I used to really dislike Bertuzzi....but after this whole thing I think I actually might miss seeing him on the ice. I don't know what that's all about.*

Probably has something to do with with the fact that despite his poor season this year, Bertuzzi is not only a great player (in terms of points and goal scoring) but normally a great personality to have on the ice. He's someone you can rally behind.

Of course, I am sure that there are many who's opinions have changed since Monday.

If Moore is going to be out of the hospital sooner than later then that is a very good thing. From what I've seen he's got a lot of potential.

As to the media blowing the whole incident out of proportion, how is that surprising? They blow all kinds of stuff out of proportion every day, especially in sports news. Sports statisticians are one group of people with far too much time on their hands.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Macnutt,
It is my humble opinion that the extent of the injury is irrelevent to the suspension. It is the act that was punished. 

Moore has 2 fractures in his neck. Common belief is that a fracture involves the snapping of a bone. This is the case only with compound fractures. There are many types. From what I gather, Moore has the equivelent of a hairline fracture or slightly more. In everyday terms cracked. Any doctors or medical types please correct if inaccurate as my knowledge is from my own broken bones.

If this is the case, Moore should be moving around now. Make no mistake, he is still seriously injured. Ask Gary Roberts.


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

I betcha Moore's gonna have to think twice before knocking down an A-list NHL point leader. This whole thing wouldn't of happened if they'd just get rid of the instigator rule. Moore woulda had his clock rung the minute after he tried to take off Naslund's head.

Welcome to the NHL, Moore.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> This whole thing wouldn't of happened if they'd just get rid of the instigator rule. Moore woulda had his clock rung the minute after he tried to take off Naslund's head.


exactly what don cherry will say on sat. night
naslund's head was almost taken off because he tried to duck thereby bringing his head to elbow level
all players should be subject to physical play within the rules, but bertuzzi's stunt was criminal
try to do that in a bar and see what happens to you


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

> Moore woulda had his clock rung the minute after he tried to take off Naslund's head.


And THAT folks is what is so very wrong with hockey today. Violence, pure and simple.

Cheers


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

> exactly what don cherry will say on sat. night
> naslund's head was almost taken off because he tried to duck thereby bringing his head to elbow level
> all players should be subject to physical play within the rules, but bertuzzi's stunt was criminal
> try to do that in a bar and see what happens to you


Naslund hadn't even touched the puck and this little punk Moore tries to take his head off. That's a criminal act too. The league shoulda disiplined him immediately. 5 games. None of this woulda happened if the league took responsibility there. The refs didn't even make a call.


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

> And THAT folks is what is so very wrong with hockey today. Violence, pure and simple.


No. The problem is no-talent punk players that try to knock down the A-list players. Without Naslund, Bertuzzi, Sakic, Yzerman, Iginla et al, NHL teams wouldn't exist....cause the fans wouldn't go to the games to see talent-less sh!ts like Moore. (And, it doesn't help that there are 30+ teams...the talent pool is shrinking and you'll see more goon players, like Moore, getting into the league.)

Sorry, but anybody that's a fan of hockey knows the other rules of hockey. It doesn't sound like most of you do follow the sport. So, get off of the soapbox and leave the hockey talk for the hockey fans.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Me thinks we have a troller in our midst.


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

Another non-hockey fan that decides to jump on the bandwagon responds:



> Me thinks we have a troller in our midst.


Me thinks you've never sat down and watched more then 10 games of hockey in your lifetime...if at all!

And, quoting your comment from before:



> To my mind Bertuzzi absolutely intended to smash Moore's face into the ice and hold his victim's head down while he courageously pummelled him with a few more blows to head.


None of the camera angles showed this "pummelling" you describe. Get your facts straight before posting.


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

Hello,

I found a better version of the Bertuzzi punch on the Internet and I've posted it here. It's only 1.4MB and you can download it. The author is listed as hockeyfights.com.

James


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

Funny. After watching the replay again last night things seemed a little different.

To me, it seemed like after Bertuzzi clocked him, he did actually push him to the ice with his forearm across the back of his neck and his other hand on his shoulder pushing him down. Then it seemed as though he was winding up for another punch as the other Colorado player landed on the back of him. At that point it looks like Bertuzzi actually kind of turtles to avoid getting pummled by this colorado player. But not only does it look like Bertuzzi turtles, but it looks like he's actually trying to protect moore's head, not grind it into the ground as some have previously said.

Highly unlikey I'm sure, but that's what it looked like to me.

I wonder at what point Bertuzzi knew that Moore was out?


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

This incident was just as severe as the cross-check given by Gary Suter on Paul Kariya in the 1998/1999 season. Suter was only suspended for 10 games at most...I think...and was still allowed to participate in the Nagano Olympics. Now, all of the sudden, everybody (and a good proportion are probably people that aren't even fans of hockey...or any sport for that matter), want Bertuzzi's head on a platter.

Go complain about Bush bombing a country. Leave the hockey to the hockey fans.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Just for the record, I thought that the sucker punch from behind was a cheap shot. Not worthy of a true warrior. Boo on Bertuzzi!  

But...I have just heard an unsubstantiated rumor from a friend who is an insider. This rumor claims that Moore's injuries are actually vastly overblown, and that he will be released from hospital in the next few days. The rumor also goes on to say that Moore has NO broken bones. In his neck or anywhere else!









I have no idea if this is true. But the source is not known for radical exageration or outright falsehood.

If this rumor turns out to be actually true....then what would all of you think about the severe punishment that has been dealt out to Bertuzzi and the Canucks?

Comments? Thoughts? Opinions?

Please feel free to speak up. I'm listening. So are lots of others, I'd bet.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

looks like somebody peed in George's Cheerios this morning


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

George, why not tone it down a touch? If you don't want to be called a troll, don't post like one.

I'd disagree that Moore is a no-talent punk; he's a rookie with some potential. Why he hit Naslund like he did I dunno, it was a dumb move for sure, but I was more disappointed with the refs not calling anything on him.

Maybe if the refs had called at the very least a penalty there wouldn't be this mess.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

George, stop sounding like a hockey thug suffering from one too many hits.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

This is not a "hockey play". Crosschecking is one of the most serious violent penalties in hockey, but it is expected in the game by both players and fans. A dirty play, but a play none the less.

Chop-blocking in football is similar; illegal but without a rule it would be expected that players would use it in the field of play.

This act is, to me, essentially similar to some of the antics we saw last season in the CFL; players removing helmets and hitting others with it. It's not dirty play, it's assault, plain and simple.

I don't have a problem with the violent nature of hockey or football (or rugby, or lacrosse, where the cheap shots can be nastier) but this isn't anything to do with competing. It's thuggery.

Some things in sport just don't go away until you send a message. Doping is one. Did a lifetime ban really fit the crime in Ben Johnson's case (or dozens of others)? Perhaps not. Did it send a message? You bet.

Were it up to me, he'd be banned from the NHL for life (and turf Ed Hervey of the Eskimos out of the CFL). Way out of proportion to the crime, but you can bet that that would be the end of this crap, and that's what is needed. Now, not next year.

We use the same methods when certain crimes get out of hand, I don't see why sport should be different.

Let him finish his career in Italy.


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

> No. The problem is no-talent punk players that try to knock down the A-list players. Without Naslund, Bertuzzi, Sakic, Yzerman, Iginla et al, NHL teams wouldn't exist....cause the fans wouldn't go to the games to see talent-less sh!ts like Moore. (And, it doesn't help that there are 30+ teams...the talent pool is shrinking and you'll see more goon players, like Moore, getting into the league.)


Hello,

I doubt that Moore is a punk, but since he's just a rookie it's hard to say where he'll end up in the grand scheme of things. I doubt that Moore even knew that it was Naslund who was reaching for the puck: he probably just saw a nice opportunity to hit someone who was in the open ice. If you watch the clip very closely, it does appear that Naslund did touch the puck before the hit. Thus, it could be argued that Moore was trying to gain possession of the puck from Naslund.

Naslund should have known better about reaching for the puck the way he did, as this is how many players get hit in the NHL and I'm sure he would admit that. Yes, Moore did stick out his elbow, which is a 2 minute minor penalty.

If A-list players can't be touched or even looked at funny, why not have 2 separate leagues? One with A-list players, which we could call the Premiere League, and one with B-list players, which we could call the Not-So-Premiere League.

If we did this, we would see a situation where only the biggest cities with the largest fan base would have teams - New York, Detroit, Boston, Toronto, Montreal, and Chicago, for example. In order to see the premiere players, we would have to travel to one of those cities or watch the games on television. Would the rest of us still watch hockey and go to hockey games on the Not-So-Premiere League? Yes, I think so.

Further, I find that the opinions on this board, even though they may not all be from "die-hard hockey fans" are still, nonetheless, very insightful. In fact, one typically must remove themselves from the moment in order to get a clear perspective on things. If you want to see what "hockey fanatics" think, they you might want to go and visit an NHL board, such as the Canucks Forum. 

In fact, I suggest everyone go there and read about the "Free Bertuzzi Rally" that's scheduled for tomorrow.

James


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## khummsein (Sep 12, 2003)

> This whole thing wouldn't of happened if they'd just get rid of the instigator rule. Moore woulda had his clock rung the minute after he tried to take off Naslund's head.


moore did "take his lumps" in a fight earlier in the game...how many times does it have to happen? when does it end?

it doesn't matter who the victim was -- he's a human being -- but let's imagine that bertuzzi was tie domi and steve moore was daniel alfredsson -- any more bitching? alfredsson crosschecks tucker headfirst into the boards, then turns & scores the winning goal -- nobody skated up behind him & cuffed him in the neck the next game...

i know that there are "other rules" in hockey. i think they're backwards. how can you count on the players of the game to dole out justice? if the league & the referees do their job right, then goons don't have jobs any more and tough players with SKILL like bertuzzi don't feel the need to become avenging angels of destruction. 

unfortunately, he did. unfortunately, a talented player who, by most accounts, is a good person otherwise, crossed the line. with all the circumstances surrounding this affair, the punishment must be severe, whether it's todd bertuzzi, marty mcsorley (yes, we called for his head too), tie domi (i was pretty embarrassed to be a leaf fan that playoff)...

punish these kinds of vicious things severely, especially when threats are made previously. stop them. get them out of the game. next time it happens, do it again. it won't take too long till it doesn't happen again.


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

I think that one of the things that might be missing in this discussion is the context of how the game was being played and refereed. If you watched the entire game and are even somewhat knoweldgeable about reffing, then you would be quite aware of how this game slipped away. 

The refereeing in the previous game was tight and there wasn't much in the way of nonsense. In this game with the number of early fights and stick infractions, there were no ejections and no major (10 minute) penalties. The NHL needed to take responsibility for their officials lack of active officiating - it was too reactionary.

I still go back to my point that if you watch the wide view of the Bertuzzi punch, the whole incident could have been avoided if the ref had called the play. It was obvoius something was going to happen.

The NHL has done little or nothing to improve its own situation. Witness the mouthing off by Bobbyy Clarke and Ken Hitchcock and Jeremy Roenick. This is bad for hockey and nothing has been done


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

now we know why the NFL is so tight on fining players, coaches and management if they step out of line

from a marketing point of view, they manage their game very well

part of it is the accountability to the fans to wit the penalites for;
"wolfing" - taking off your helmet on the field of play
"standing over a downed player" and taunting
taunting in general
rambling by NFL personnel in the media
quick review of "showboating" - making cell calls, signing footballs during games, etc.

they run a tight ship over there
they never lose sight of the fact that without the television fan, they lose their ability to charge big dollars for tv rights

as violent as NFL football is, one rarely sees fights
the CFL, although a better on field product in terms of rules, sadly lacks the intestinal fortitude shown by the NFL commissioner's office

i prefer the CFL product as an entertainment vehicle for football


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

> The NHL has done little or nothing to improve its own situation. Witness the mouthing off by Bobbyy Clarke and Ken Hitchcock and Jeremy Roenick. This is bad for hockey and nothing has been done


They're too busy discussing whether or not goalies should be allowed to leave their crease and play the puck. The NHL is in shambles right now. Maybe a year off would do it good.


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

> If we did this, we would see a situation where only the biggest cities with the largest fan base would have teams - New York, Detroit, Boston, Toronto, Montreal, and Chicago, for example. In order to see the premiere players, we would have to travel to one of those cities or watch the games on television. Would the rest of us still watch hockey and go to hockey games on the Not-So-Premiere League? Yes, I think so.


Are you saying hockey is popular in New Jersey? Ever seen their arena? It's empty. Nobody goes to the games. And, they are the defending champions. I'm sure we'll see franchises starting to fold and leave the NHL. And, it'll be for the better of the sport. Do we really need an NHL team in Phoenix, Nashville, Columbus or Florida?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I am with George on this one...

Hockey is a sport that has some danger and some fighting as an integral part of its makeup. This is a part of the attraction.

Remove this, and thousands of fans would flee in total boredom.

Moore was working under the "implied consent" rules when he went out onto the ice...just like any other Pro Hockey player.

He KNEW he could be hurt out there on the ice. That's just a part of the game. (I'm fairly certain that he's watched the movie "Slapshot")

His injuries weren't terribly serious. He has a couple of hairline fractures in the spurs that are attached to his neck bones. Plus the usual cuts and abrasions that come from a standard hockey game.

He will be up and walking around within a few days. He will be chopping wood and water skiing within a couple of weeks.

And, for THIS, Todd Bertuzzi was shut out of the rest of the season, denied a half million dollars in salary, and his team was fined a further quarter million dollars??

What a CROCK!


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> His injuries weren't terribly serious. He has a couple of hairline fractures in the spurs that are attached to his neck bones. Plus the usual cuts and abrasions that come from a standard hockey game.


I sure hope that you have no runnings with a drunk driver. So if I shoot @ a cop for instance, should get a much lighter sentencing for missing him, even though I was fully aware of what i was doing? This is totally irrelevant. Bert knew what he was doing, though the chances of this bad/worst case scenario unfolding were extremely slim. But guess what? it happened. Just as the Brashear case, you have to penalize the intent - and look @ what was done. Yeah, it sucks, but for a few seconds both McSorely and Bert lost their minds and need to be punished. 

I for one understand the fighting (yes), but any intent to injure should never ever be tolerated and should be controlled with heavy fines and stiff suspensions. That will get players thinking about stick swinging et al....



> He will be up and walking around within a few days. He will be chopping wood and water skiing within a couple of weeks.


So let's base it on the likely quick recovery? no thanks. So now, I've been shot @ but it was only a flesh wound.  Sorry, but that still cannot hide the intent to injure. You want to send a message? what happened to physical play? constant bodychecking to send the point across? believe it or not, that's what they do in Basketball. Yes bball. As light as you may think is, if they don't want you to drive to the key all the time, they make sure they body you well, and foul you hard. No cheap blows, just hard fouls. That's what happened to Michael Jordan early in his career... These career threatening retaliations are sickening. 



> And, for THIS, Todd Bertuzzi was shut out of the rest of the season, denied a half million dollars in salary, and his team was fined a further quarter million dollars??


The team fine was surprising, but the half a mil? is that not just salary? The games? pffff... that was nothing @ all. Remainder + playoffs: that was a total gift. + he should hope that it ends there, as I would be quick to bring this to civil court with a fat lawsuit. 

Hockey is rough and physical, but there needs to be a line drawn. I still think that the NHL took an easy way out with this sugar coated suspension, although we'll see what happens @ the start of next training camp... whenever that is. 

H!


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

> Remove this, and thousands of fans would flee in total boredom.


We get a dose of this once a year. It's called "All Star Weekend." The game is very boring. That's what all the fans say.

Thanks for the support, Macnutt! Nice to know another hockey fan is responding on this thread.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> Thanks for the support, Macnutt! Nice to know another hockey fan is responding on this thread.


Dude, I love hockey (and I'm sure many here do as well) and can't think of not watching a good game. Been watching it ever since my young days as a 67's fan. We simply have diff views on this. I love a good scrap - but not crap.  

H!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

George, you don't understand that most hockey fans like the physical play. That means body checking NOT fighting, high sticking, spearing, cross checking.

Removing fighting from hockey would be a good thing.

No other sport tolerates fighting. They all remove players with a match penalty. Even football. (north american and european)
Hockey rewards fighting with a 5 minutes rest that RARELY results in disadvantage for the team. I have seen on very rare occassions where the ref handed out a fighting major to one player and only a roughing penalty to the other, resulting in a 3 min. power play, but this is extremely rare. Fighting majors almost always go in pairs.

Again, where is the NHLPA in all this? Not a peep. It's all about the money, but in the long run, if the NHLPA could think like that, it would be better for the players. That of course would require Bob Goodenough to think beyond his next paycheque.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Very interesting posts ..... fans of this kind of violence are usually the juveniles ......











> [adj]  displaying or suggesting a lack of maturity; "adolescent insecurity"; "jejune responses to our problems"; "their behavior was juvenile"; "puerile jokes"


Nice to see two posters trying to decide who's worthy of being a fan ......... try "infantile"


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

It is up to the owners to take the violence out of the game of hockey by rewriting the rules. The players don't make the rules of the game. The owners could take fighting out of the game in an instant if they wanted to. Has anyone noticed all of the owners comments decrying violence in the game?

The big economic picture of hockey that team owners must be looking at is the issue of who is paying the biggest portion of the revenues. Unlike most other professional team sports, it is the fans in the seats - the season ticket holders that carry the load in the NHL. Those fans don't mind the fighting, heck, they are standing up cheering. Are the owners willing to alienate those people? I don't think so.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

> Are the owners willing to alienate those people?


Who? .... the white trash?


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

Wow... do you really think that saying what you wrote is funny or relevant or useful? Calling people names is just not useful in this discussion. You've had good things to say in the past - tell us what you think about the role of the owners in this situation.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

White trash, it's behavior and the owners sucking up to their deranged blood-sport mentality is not funny or relevant or useful to disciplined sport.

To read some here discussing the "finer" points of such behavior is certainly not funny but typical of some.

White trash is what turns hockey from a sport to a contest of gladiators, in Bertuzzi's come-from-behind case a particularly cowardly one and only such trash would suggest Moore gave "implied consent" to being assaulted from behind.

Cowardice is the sport of white trash.

Too many games become the sport of agitating the spectators into a frenzy until only an outrageous act will serve the interests of dramatic effect. This was not a game that "slipped away". It got mentally deranged!

Millions will gladly take the seats of those idiots that confuse hockey and wrestling!









Are the Olympics cancelling hockey for lack of interest or box office?

The owners? ... they are more concerned with the parking, junk food and beer concessions than what happens to their stable.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

A name calling is the sport of...... ? 

For the love of Pete Macello, please.


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

Last time I checked "white trash" couldn't afford to attend an NHL game...


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

> Last time I checked "white trash" couldn't afford to attend an NHL game...


Some arrive in limousines.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Limos are for the noveau riche who want to be noticed.

The truly well off (white trash or otherwise) maintain a low profile and arrive via the back entrance in a smallish convoy of nondescript minivans with dark tinted windows.

Trust me on this.   

And...might I just add...it is truly wonderful to have a member of the enlightened cultural elite (such as macello) here to guide us all in our thoughts and decisions on a great range of subjects. If left to our own designs, we would no doubt revert to grunting and snorting beasts of the field, in very short order.

He's worked very hard to save all of us from this terrible fate. We owe him a major thank-you for this.

Don't you think?


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Actually I would define as "grunting and snorting beasts" any or all who goaded Bertuzzi into the cowardly hit and any and all who excuse it as well as those who bring such a great sport to the disrepute it now suffers.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

since i refuse to pay $400 for a leaf ticket at the ACC (aka "the hanger"), i drive to Buffalo and catch hockey games there
not to mention fantastic wings and rolling rock beer....

$59 u.s. gets me a ticket less than 10 rows up at one of the face off dots


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I didn't "goad Bertuzzi into the hit" and I suspect that no one else did, either. It was an unfortunate manifestation of anger by a player who has been sometimes known for his hot temper, against a rookie who had smoked his best buddy during an earlier game. While Bertuzzi's team was losing badly, to this very same team.

This doesn't excuse the cowardly sucker punch. Not at all.  

But I question the severity of the punishment when the injured player is expected, by his own doctors, to be back on skates within four weeks. Perhaps even sooner.

Word is that he is already up and walking around. He has a golf match planned for next week, and will be jetskiing at a major resort by the end of March. He's already booked time there.

Rumor has it that Moore, himself, has been questioning the severity of the punishment that has been meted out to his assailant. He's taken MUCH worse hits while he was on the way up to the NHL, after all..

But he has been told to "shut up about it".

What a silly shmozzle! It's a sad day for hockey, in general.  If we're not careful, this could be the event that marks the decline of our National sport on the world stage.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Does the severity of the injusry sustained on Moores part really need to impact the severity of Bertuzzis punishment?

I mean, I like the guy but he came up from behind and smoked another player in the back of the head, if that's not worthy of a stern punishment then what is?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Good point, PosterBoy.

Bertuzzi should be disciplined. Rather severely. It was a stupid and nasty move, to be sure.

But a quarter million dollar fine for the Canucks? Who had no say in this? Who could not have prevented it?

And a half million dollar loss in pay for Bertuzzi...plus a fifteen (plus) game suspension??!?







 

While the "injured" player is back up and on skates (not to mention playing golf and engaging in physically demanding off-ice sporting activities) after only a month?!?  

Which is about the average time for a player to be back on his feet after a bad hit, by the way.

Sorry, but it seems like Bertuzzi's gettin a raw deal out of this.

Apparently, Moore thinks so, as well.  

But don't expect him to come out and say so. He's a rookie, and has been told to shut up about it. If he wants to stay in the NHL.

What a CROCK!


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

First, Bertuzzi was suspended and typically when you are suspended you do not get paid. It's not a 500k$ fine, it's money they are not going to let him earn by suspending him. If you want to state them separately, say "Suspended until the end of the season resulting in 500k$ in lost wages" so it doesn't blow the whole thing out of proportion.

As to the 250k$ fine to the franchise, I would say it's another way to discourage the violence. One person does something stupid, _everybody pays for it_. The smart players will stop doing stupid things, the dumb players will start getting traded away or stop getting their contracts renewed.

It shows to me that the NHL is getting serious about cracking down on some of the needless violence that shows up far too often these days, but that they don't want to drum anyone right out of the league (for obvious financial reasons).

[ March 14, 2004, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: PosterBoy ]


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

Someone made a post about how the refs let the game get out of hand, and I must agree. The very same could be said for the CFL games that got wild in Alberta (not just one game either; there was a "rematch" just like the Vancouver game was).

I don't see complaining about refereeing getting much attention from any league, although the NFL tries a bit (they fire the 2 poorest rated refs per season; no exceptions).

I said if it were up to me there would have been a very strong repercussion. Of course, it's not up to me. Which begs the question as to how badly the NHL wants to prevent something like this in the future. I think their response suggests that they don't want to send such a message; they're still trying to "manage" it rather than eliminate it. So be it, it's their decision to make. I think it's the wrong decision, but so what?

We will see another incident some time in the future; and I think the penalty, which is in line with "strong messages" of the past, guarantees it. It's simply not that big a deal with the league (yet).

I don't see how the severity or recovery of the player has anything to do with it. We are not charged with drunk driving for what we do, we are charged for what potential harm there is with impaired drivers.

There is usually one incident, somewhere in all of hockey (not pro leagues, usually) where a hockey player dies from a puck to the heart or head about once a year. There is no need to charge anyone (usually) and it's simply a tragic event. What's the point of that?

The actual injury is not the determinant as to whether it's "part of the game" or totally out of hand, and the severity or lack thereof of the injury is not what the penalty should be about. I do think, however, that the NHL does look at it that way, and I don't think that's the right approach to the problem.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Here is my take on all of this...

In the seventies, hockey was a game that was largely unknown in most of the major markets. Top hockey players recieved salaries that were in the fifty thousand dollar range. They did not wear protective gear. Some were out for half a season or more, when they got "Hit".

None of them had any front teeth. All were seriously dedicated and ready for a fight...at any time.

This was a major part of the attraction of the game. It was "rough and tumble" and wasn't like ANY other organised sport on earth.

Canadians, and some Americans from a few northern states...along with a smattering of Europeans...considered this sport to be "their own". 

WE didn't even CARE if the rest of the world had no clue about Hockey. It was OURS and ours alone.  

In the early seventies, the American National team took on Russia and won, against all odds. The American people...in this Cold War atmosphere..suddenly sat up and took notice of this rather obscure sport.

A few years later, the movie "Slapshot" came out. It was a cheapo, but it featured a major American hero/ actor called Paul Newman.

So everyone had a look. They liked what they saw and it became a cult classic. 

The violent nature of the game figured largely in the movie and audiences just ate it up. The move went on to break all rental records. For YEARS.

People LOVED it!  

Not too long after that, a lot of cities began to form their own Hockey teams. Even places like Arizona and Florida soon had their own Hockey teams.

Mayhem ensued. New fans were converted from several other sports to Hockey. It was so radical, compared to everything else that was out there. They LOVED it.

Then the salaries began to increase until they were all in the million dollar range.

Right about then...the scores began to drop until a GOOD Hockey game was often recorded as 0-0 or 0-1 in scoring. (rhymes with "boring")

The millionaire players were now all wearing face sheilds and trying not to hurt their fellow millionaires on the opposing team. Ho-Hum.

And, when a good old-time REAL Hockey player DOES come along...and actually plays the game as it was meant to be played...the officials strip him of his salary and sideline him for several months. Perhaps forever.

Meanwhile, Hockey shrinks in popularity every single year, and motor racing has ten times as many devoted fans. One is growing...one is shrinking.

Gee...I wonder why?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Macnutt, 

There is a difference between physical play and sneaking up behind and clobbering a guy.

Just because the extreme violence has been popularized doesn't make it ok.

Body checks? Sure. Boarding & cross checks? Debatable. Fights? If both players drop their gloves, yes. Jumping another guy from behind? Most assuredly not, especially when he doesn't have the puck.

Ever watch international hockey? There's lots of body checking and physical play going on there but they are a lot less forgiving when it comes to these aspects of the game, and yet they are some of the most enjoyable games out there.

Hockey is a contact sport, but it is also a game of skill. In the last few years the NHL seems to have been embracing the full contact side of the game, which is a shame because the skill is so much more satisfying to watch.


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

> Body checks? Sure. Boarding & cross checks? Debatable. Fights? If both players drop their gloves, yes. Jumping another guy from behind?


Priceless. 

VISA™. Accepted at all NHL arenas. Even GM Place.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> In the early seventies, the American National team took on Russia and won, against all odds


actually macnutt, it was the Soviet Union aka USSR, not Russia per say
just trying to keep it factual


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Perhaps they could have *"Boxing on Ice"* or some such scraps for the white trash?


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

> Which begs the question as to how badly the NHL wants to prevent something like this in the future. I think their response suggests that they don't want to send such a message; they're still trying to "manage" it rather than eliminate it. So be it, it's their decision to make. I think it's the wrong decision, but so what?


THe NHL got caught in the media frenzy that swirled around this whole sad affair - much of it from south of hte border. By not dealing with all of the different issues that surround violence and not having a firm policy in place- they had to deal with Bertuzzi in the court of public opinion - thus the open ended nature of the suspension. 

Ryan Walter, former Capital, Canadien, and Canuck, had a really good suggestion on a TV show last night after the Canuck-Senator game: penalize any blow to the head (stick, ebow, shoulder, etc.) with the same severity (penalty, fine, suspension). This would solve the ambiguity in the rules and prevent some of the so-called "lack of respect" injuries --> see Moore vs. Naslund.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

in Naslund's case it did appear that he tried to "duck" and brought his head down to elbow level

i know this is far from pro hockey, but when i was playing organized touch football, it was illegal for the ball carrier to drop his head
this was for the safety of the player since if he drops his head, opposing players have little choice but to strike his head

hockey players are so much bigger, faster and stronger
i also blame the use of the aluminium shafed sticks for many injuries
players can use the shaft of the stick without any fear of it breaking, unlike a wooden stick

perhaps it is time to go back to basics

and make fighting a match penalty like in every other major sport

hockey has some very tough days ahead of it, not to mention the current problems with the lack of a CBA and the strong possibilty of no hockey next year

perhaps it's time to put a Canadian back in charge of the NHL
i heard Ken Dryden speak during the 2nd intermission of the 1st sat. night game on CBC and he does sound quite pasionate (as much as Dryden can) about fixing hockey
his skills are certainly being wasted as president of the Leafs

Bettman has really made a mess of this game


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Imagine what Bertuzzi could do for curling!


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

George, if you really think that one player sneaking up on another and clobbering him is priceless then I'd say you are part of the problem. It makes you seem like less of a hockey fan and more of a senseless violence fan.

If that is what you like, why not check out Ultimate Fighting Championship, where anything goes.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

MacSpectrum,
Agreed on Dryden, his passion was shown and his passion for the game is unquestionable. Surely a perfect fit for someone looking at changing the big picture.
I have never played hockey at a high level but I do have one observation. The culture in hockey is much different from sports I have played. I was a football player in my youth and young adulthood. In football, these things rarely ever happen. The culture is such that the backlash from your own team would be unbearable. There is no room for selfish behavior.
In Hockey, it was expected that some retribution be sought for the hit on Naslund. In football, retribution was characterized as a Good hit or beating the other team on the scoreboard.
I am a huge hockey fan, what happened made me sick.

Macello, What is your problem? You do realise that when you characterise certain portions of society in a degrading manner you fall below the level of the very people you attack. Not to mention, your comments are racist. Your lack of tolerence is astonishing. You rail about racism in other posts. Look in the mirror!


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Petie, this trash has ruined the game. 

You see human trash at nearly every game ..... an extremely vocal minority .... and it is white .... sorry to have to break the news.

You have to be there to see it.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Sorry Macello
I attend a minimum of 10 NHL games a year. Care to specify which group you're speaking of because I have yet to see it. Is it the people who cheer loud and boisterously for the home team.

You are just as intolerant as the people you attack for the same thing. I live in a world where I don't judge people based on colour or social status or economic status. What world do you live in. It would seem that anyone who does not fit into your narrow view of acceptability is grouped and "trashed" by you.

How many games do you attend a year Macello? Do you play Hockey? Are you a fan at all? What qualifies you to pass this judgement?


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

> What qualifies you to pass this judgement?


My experience.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Based on your evasion of the Questions posed. No qualifications whatsoever.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Petie, I am under no obligation to answer your petty questions, nor are you qualified any more than george to decide who is a fan here or qualifies in any way to partake in this discussion ..... simple! .... eh?


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

No, I am not qualified to say who should take part in discusions on this board. Even if you are not a fan your viewpoints should be valued. That is until you attack groups of people and label them. 

Questions are asked and answered regularely here. It is the basis for debate and sharing of opinions. Answering "petty" questions is quite routine. You have been taken to task on your elitest views and have chosen to not answer direct questions because it does not suit you.

People will draw their own conclusions as to what that is called.


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

Hello,



> Are you saying hockey is popular in New Jersey? Ever seen their arena? It's empty. Nobody goes to the games. And, they are the defending champions.


I certainly do not have enough information to suggest whether or not hockey is popular in the entire State of New Jersey, but I must assume you are referring to just the NHL team.

What I know is that people want to get the most benefit per dollar spent, so if fans aren't going to games, then it is possible that this is because the price of the ticket is too high or the quality of the game is too low (i.e., the trap is pretty boring). So, perhaps people are not going to see the NHL team in New Jersey. That may be a problem with their franchise rather than the state of hockey in the State.



> I'm sure we'll see franchises starting to fold and leave the NHL. And, it'll be for the better of the sport.


I'm not too sure how fewer teams is better for the sport of hockey because a smaller fan base lowers overall interest in hockey, which can, in turn, lead to even fewer people taking up the sport, which can, in turn, lead to an even lower quality of hockey.



> Do we really need an NHL team in Phoenix, Nashville, Columbus or Florida?


Maybe not an NHL team, but some sort of hockey team. I don't think these cities would even have an NHL team, unless there were people in those cities who enjoy the game of hockey. This seems like a similar idea to my suggestion of a two-tiered hockey system. 

James


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

> ...petty questions...


Hello,

Remember, don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

James


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

> intial quote:
> I'm sure we'll see franchises starting to fold and leave the NHL. And, it'll be for the better of the sport.





> I'm not too sure how fewer teams is better for the sport of hockey because a smaller fan base lowers overall interest in hockey, which can, in turn, lead to even fewer people taking up the sport, which can, in turn, lead to an even lower quality of hockey.


There is a very simple reason why the great number of hockey commentators and I suppose many fans would like to see a reduced number of NHL teams... the pool of quality hockey players is limited (even if you count European players). So you end up having players with limited abilites having to play in a regular role on the team. This is not good for hockey because the quality of play goes down. Wonder why so many teams play a defensive style of hockey. They have to make do with what they have.

Mr. Bettman bet the future of the league on expansion into some dubious locations in the US. Expansion team fees kept team owners happy for a while. Wonder where the money came form to pay for escalating player contracts?


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## george.. (Jun 16, 2003)

> George, if you really think that one player sneaking up on another and clobbering him is priceless then I'd say you are part of the problem. It makes you seem like less of a hockey fan and more of a senseless violence fan.
> If that is what you like, why not check out Ultimate Fighting Championship, where anything goes.


It was a joke. Take a downer.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

we really need to have a "joke" emoticon so that people can flag their comments as jokes and so that others don't react.
[sigh]


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

just watched the Moore press conference, 6 p.m. ET, March 29

he was unshaven, hair looked like it hadn't been washed in a couple of days, his face still had splotches, he was in a neck brace and was wearing a "hospital type" smock that covered his torso

he said he is "looking forward" to his re-hab (no pun intended) and "hopes" to play hockey again
he is happy that he is able to walk
hopes to accompany the team thru the playoffs

a far cry from the "he's not hurt so bad" theory touted on here earlier


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

MacNutt posted on March 13, 2004 02:42 AM: 


> His injuries weren't terribly serious. He has a couple of hairline fractures in the spurs that are attached to his neck bones. Plus the usual cuts and abrasions that come from a standard hockey game.
> 
> He will be up and walking around within a few days. He will be chopping wood and water skiing within a couple of weeks.


MacNutt posted on March 14, 2004 03:13 AM:


> But I question the severity of the punishment when the injured player is expected, by his own doctors, to be back on skates within four weeks. Perhaps even sooner.
> 
> Word is that he is already up and walking around. He has a golf match planned for next week, and will be jetskiing at a major resort by the end of March. He's already booked time there.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

> Macello, do you even watch hockey?


Yes. (the game, that is.)









The fighting is for cowards ......


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Oh? Are you a fan of Tie Domi?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> How someone looks is not an indication of how badly hurt he is


in lieu of video footage i was trying to convey the scene
he certainly wasn't in his jersey, all suited up ready for practice
he looked like he had been bed ridden for a while
it is not definitive proof, but certainly circumstantial evidence


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

You said that you watched the press conference on TV. I think you may want to watch the press conference video again. Mr. Moore was not wearing a "hospital type smock" ... he was at the Pepsi Center (not a hospital) and he was wearing a white dress shirt... the same shirt that you will see him wearing in the luxury box... because the press conference was held just before the start of the game.

We shouldn't read too much into the appearance of the man from either point of view (How many hockey players go without shaving?) 

If you want the truth then you need to have Moore's doctor in front of the media answering questions.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Macello disappeared without answering. Interesting.

In case anyone was wondering, I asked about Tie Domi because back in the mid 90s (95-96 season as I recall) Tie Domi _dropped his glove _ and clocked a guy from behind (Samuelson I *think*).

Why is this significant? Because Domi's attack was far more premeditated but he only received an 8 game suspension. Go figure.

If you want to drum out everyone in hockey who's ever done something stupid or violent or both, you wouldn't have any players left.

Don't get me wrong, but it's not the fighting that is the problem, it's the unprovoked and completely out of line violence. Personally I hope to see Bertuzzi back on the ice because, despite the snap judgements made by some, he is a good player, just like Domi.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> Because Domi's attack was far more premeditated but he only received an 8 game suspension. Go figure.


hey - I've always said that the NHL is extremely inconsistent with the suspensions + penalties. Really, they flaked out on this Bertuzzi call. I think Bert is a talented player as well, but oh well. He snapped for a second and the worst case scenario unfolded: Moore's Law?? 

I for one have watched hockey all my life - and do *understand* the worth of a scrap. That was not one at all...

Anyhow, more importantly, Moore's denial of Bert's request for a face to face apology is very interesting. I personally think that there might be some legal brewing. He was very dry in brushing that aside, and spent no time talking about - ie if he seems to accept an apology, he would seem as having pardoned him and I think that's something he's not ready to do.  His body language kinda gave me that impression. And, he sounds like he's got no plans of honoring Bert's request for some time either. Oh my, how the mighty have fallen....

Stay tuned for more lawyers. 

H!


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

It's not clear to me from any news reports that Moore "denied" Bertuzzi's request to make a face to face apology. It may not have happened for a variety of reasons. 

A reluctance on Moore and/or his family and friends' part, though, could well be the reason. But one I find understandable given that they are faced on a daily basis with the consequences of Bertuzzi's actions.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> It's not clear to me from any news reports that Moore "denied" Bertuzzi's request to make a face to face apology. It may not have happened for a variety of reasons.


Well, I do know that both Bert and Bert's agent called Moore's agent repeatedly, and did not get a call back. I believe that Bert may have mentioned that in his acrimonious press conference. 3 weeks later, I would assume that they are purposely not returning calls or just uninterested - I might qualify that as a denial, no?

h!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> We shouldn't read too much into the appearance of the man from either point of view


i guess i should have just ignored the neck brace too?

let me connect the dots....
smoke -> fire
please commit to memory for future reference


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

> he was unshaven, hair looked like it hadn't been washed in a couple of days, his face still had splotches, he was in a neck brace and was wearing a "hospital type" smock that covered his torso


I am a little surprised that this was mentioned at all. How someone looks is not an indication of how badly hurt he is... either more seriously injured or less. Most people probably haven't seen the clip of Mr. Moore reciving a standing ovation at the Pepsi Center in Colorado tonight. Maybe we should all take a close look at him standing and waving from one of the luxury boxes. If we *only* used this video clip, then Mr. Moore himself would appear to support the "he's not hurt so bad" theory.

Maybe having a doctor on hand to answer media questions would have clarified the issue about Moore's prognosis. 


FYI: Here's a link with a picture of Mr Moore and a summary of the press conference

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article.jsp?content=20040329_181253_1364


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

did you ever stop to think that in an ongoing *criminal* investigation, it's not a good idea to have "the accused" and "the victim" speaking to each other?
Vanouver police are currently investigating this incident, something that Moore mentioned in his press conference


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

If things turn out well for Moore he will play again.

If things turn out well for hockey Bertuzzi will never play again.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Macello, do you even watch hockey?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

I'm not trying to justify bad sportsmanship at all, I'm just saying that if you want to have Bertuzzi drummed out of the game you should be complaining just as loudly about everyone who's ever done something stupid, and louder about those who've done worse.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Has anyone seen Ken Dryden's article in the Globe and Mail on the weekend? I think he's on the right track. The cement-heads such as Don Cherry are ruining the game.
Saving the Game


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

Macspectrum, you were tying your argument about how badly he was hurt to an emotional appeal to Moore's appearance at the press conference. Your observations of the news conference were not correct in your earlier posting - so telling me to "please commit to memory for future reference" is a good one. I like a good sense of humour  

I'm saying that no one knows about his medical condition and you can't say how badly hurt or not badly hurt he is until you have heard directly form the doctor in charge of his care. Mr. Moore was extremely careful about what he said about his injuries for reasons of his own choosing - he does not have to be forthcoming about the nature of his injuries.

The neck brace that Mr. Moore was wearing is a soft brace. It alone does not indicate how serious the injury is. People with different neck injuries from whip lash on up could wear a soft brace like this one. He easily could be wearing a hard brace which would indicate a more serious injury .


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

emotional appeal?
now, 'that' is funny

i didn't realise neck braces, hard or soft (freudian slip cautiously avoided), were fashion statements
unless mr. moore is planning on filing a false insurance claim as per countless "sketch comedies and sitcoms"

he (moore) looked like hell
i usually look through the eyes of a cynic, but i don't think moore was showing off


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

According to my NHL insider buddy, Moore was riding his ten speed the other day. He has apparently been told, in no uncertain terms, to cancel any and all outdoor physical activites that he had planned for his downtime. This is to support some sort of major action, acccording to my source. Perhaps even an expensive lawsuit. This is topic #1 all over the whole NHL.

And anybody who can't see how fake and self-serving all of this really is, would probably also believe that the top Federal Liberals didn't know anything about the ongoing theft of hundreds of millions of tax dollars in the sponsorship scandal. 

Whoops! They DO!

Gee...go figure.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

No matter the case, however _mild_ his neck fracture was, it happened. So now we want to call Moore out for being able to ride a bike? I could care less if he could practice with his teammates right now. What was done - was done. Now let's see what happens. If the NHL wants this kind of comportment to carry on, they'll keep handing out these after class detentions they use to discipline their players. If they want to send that point across, they will. You hear me Belak? Lost your balance eh?  

Look @ football: they won't even tolerate a slashing gesture across the neck. 

Like I said, I feel bad for Bert, because he was not trying to break his neck, but lay a hurt on him (as they said on the Score). But now's time to face the music dude. Sorry. 

H!


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## Kami (Jul 29, 2002)

Read what I wrote... again. I didn't say that Mr. Moore was making the emotional appeal. I said that you made the appeal to the reader's emotions by your choice of words in the description of Mr. Moore at the press conference.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

EDIT: Personal attacks are not condoned on ehMac.

[ March 31, 2004, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Chealion ]


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I wrote a fairly long and scathing reply to you macello. In it, I questioned your water and your food sources, among other things.

I pointed out that MY water and food sources were certified organic and totally clean. I questioned the sort of dreck you'd been eating and drinking for the last decade or so...and how that might have influenced your thinking on certain matters.

Apparently, someone with administrative access decided to delete my previous post.

And so it goes.

Bottom line? My source says that Moore has been walking and riding around like a guy who has a very slight Hockey injury after a big game.

He has been told to limit his physical activities during this downtime, in order to make a pertinent point. Very little golf (at carefully controlled locations) and NO jetskiing just now.

He has a soft cervcal collar that he must wear whenever he's seen in public. If he balks at any of this..then the poor rookie may NEVER get to the multi million-dollar salary level. So he has been told, by his bosses in the NHL.

A huge lawsuit? A permanent suspension for Bertuzzi? Massive and continuing press coverage for the NHL. Just when they really NEED it? To support a failing sport, and to put it back into the public eye?

Who knows?

I invite you to all think about it...for a bit.

Then decide what is real, and what is fake.

Your choice.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

REAL: Bertuzzi jumped Moore from behind like a coward
REAL: Moore carried off ice and put in hospital
REAL: Bertuzzi has a history of going a little bit nuts

i don't know how much more "real" you would like it to get?
it's as if some people would only accept Moore's death as an excuse to penalize Bertuzzi


"No autopsy, no foul?"


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

No question that Bertuzzi hit Moore with a sucker punch from behind.

Bad form...and a cheesy hit, no matter how you look at it.  

The point I am trying to make here is that a very good friend of mine....whom I have been close to since about 1974 or so (and who is now an insider in the NHL heirarchy)...has told me, in NO uncertain terms, that Moore is pretty much unscathed by this nasty experience.

Both physically and mentally.

He has told me that this is more about making big hay in the public eye, in order to get a LOT more people talking and thinking about the NHL. It might also have something to do with a bigbuck lawsuit, as well.

But that too, may also be a part of the aforesaid PR push by a desperate NHL management. After all, something like 25 out of about thirty NHL hockey teams are in serious financial trouble right now. And several types of car racing are many times more popular than hockey these days.

Guess they're looking for some sort of major controversy to put hockey onto the front pages.For weeks and weeks, just before the playoffs. In order to revitalise it amongst the masses.

Gee...do ya think?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Personally, I think the extent of Moores injuries is somewhat irrelevant. Would Bertuzzi snapping and hitting him from behind be any better if Moore had jumped right back up again? Don't think so.

That said I think Bertuzzi's punishment is pretty much in line with where it "should be". What'd be the worst for him is if the Canucks actually got through the playoffs and won. Then everyone would have a ring except him. That would make me re-assess my priorities for sure.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

One thing is absolutely certain

This controversy has gotten a LOT of us talking about the NHL, and watching the games. Many more than were watching just a few short weeks ago....

I don't suppose that THIS was the real reason behind all of it, eh? 
















Say it isn't so.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Ain’t so ... I don’t buy it.

The whole issue has turned off a lot of people, who aren’t hard core hockey fans from watching. I’ve heard a lot of disgust from people, thinking that hockey has turned into Roller Derby on ice or some kind of Roman gladiator contest. This is no doubt doubly true for that US TV market that the NHL prizes, who already view hockey as something similar to the WWF.

Viewing stats this time of the year should be rising as the more casual fans start to take interest in the stretch runs to the playoffs. My guess would be that this year they would be down.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

We'll have to see what the ratings look like, after the "Big Hockey Controversy"...won't we?

One thing is for sure, we haven't had a multi-page Hockey thread here at ehmac for a very long time before this one.

And I don't EVER recall CNN spending a whole (expensive) five minute regular news segment talking about a minor sport like Hockey in the recent past. Or EVER, for that matter.

But they've been doing it recently. Ever since Bertuzzi snuck up behind Moore and laid him out, specifically.

Guess it worked, eh? 









Like they say... there is no such thing as "bad publicity".

Just so long as they spell the names right, it's all good.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Macnutt,


> I have no idea how true it is


it's interesting that even you can't trust your "source" if indeed he exists at all.


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## Ohenri (Nov 7, 2002)

> Then everyone would have a ring except him


Does he not get the ring anyhow??

H!


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

If the NHL considers the Bertuzzi-Moore incident as a potential boost to ratings and attendance, it shows how far it has fallen as a credible sport, certainly down to the level of roller derby.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

> down to the level of roller derby


...... or celebrity boxing? 










.... or Jerry Springer?


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

> Apparently, someone with administrative access decided to delete my previous post.


Hello,

I read your post and I'm glad it was deleted.

James


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*Does he not get the ring anyhow??*

I don't _think_ so. But even if he does, maybe that would be even worse. Getting the ring would feel pretty empty considering he wouldn't have participated in the victory.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

If the Canucks win the Stanley Cup, Bertuzzi would still have his name engraved on it.

To have one's name engraved on the Stanley Cup certain requirements must be met. [A player must have at least *41 games played with the club or one game played in the Stanley Cup Finals. *However, in 1994 a stipulation was added to allow a team to petition the Commissioner for permission to have players' names put on the Cup if extenuating circumstances prevented them from being available to play.

for other fun facts about "Le Coupe de Stanley"
http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/cup/fun_facts.html


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

Hello,

[Removed due to some inaccuracies.]

James

[ April 01, 2004, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: james_squared ]


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## james_squared (May 3, 2002)

Hello,

Thanks, I stand corrected. I wonder if the NHL would try to keep Bertuzzi's name off the cup! Now, that would be punishment.

James

[ April 01, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: james_squared ]


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

Some would argue that he's one of the main reasons they are even IN the playoffs.

I think to not allow him to get a ring would be outrageous. They are punishing him enough for not letting him play in them...but ignoring that he had everything to do with helping them get there? I think that's too far. Moore would have had to have been hurt a lot more in my opinion. And I don't think the NHL is ready to make that kind of statement.

But the Canucks aren't going to win their conference nevermind the Stanley Cup so let's not get ahead of ourselves


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

> But the Canucks aren't going to win their conference nevermind the Stanley Cup so let's not get ahead of ourselves


We can always hope they win both! (Sorry, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton fans). Whether Berts name goes on the cup or not is a problem that Vancouver fans would love to have.

Last night the Canucks just added to their latest winning streak (sans Bertuzzi) and secured the top spot in the North West division over Colorado. If they can hold on to it by winning their last 2 games, that guarantees them 3rd spot in the conference and will secure them 3rd seed in the Western Conference playoff match-ups.


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

personally I don't think we want to win the next two. That'll give us home ice advantage and we all know the Canucks record at home vs. on the road. I've always preferred the canucks play away and as the underdog. They play a lot better.

(by the way, of course I hope they win, but they way they've played the second half of the season doesn't give me much hope. But the playoffs are a whole new ballgame. Either way I'll be sitting there watching


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

*But the Canucks aren't going to win their conference nevermind the Stanley Cup*

They are still leading their division (although that could change). Stranger things have happened. Lord knows they're due.

Have faith!


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