# Las Vegas massacre



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*'Beyond horrific': Shooting on Las Vegas Strip kills at least 50, wounds hundreds*










A Nevada sheriff says the death toll has climbed to at least 50 in the attack on a Las Vegas concert Sunday, making it the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history.

Clark County Sheriff Joseph Lombardo says more than 200 people were wounded at the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival in an outdoor area known as Las Vegas Village, across the strip from the Mandalay Bay and the Luxor hotels.

The death toll surpassed the 49 from the Orlando nightclub shooting that also left dozens wounded in June 2016, when the 29-year-old gunman was shot and killed by police.

Authorities have identified the person believed to be the gunman in Sunday night's shooting as Stephen Paddock, 64.

Lombardo says officers confronted Paddock on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino across the street from the concert.

It's believed he checked in as a hotel guest. He's now dead but how he died is not immediately clear.

Authorities say they have also located 62-year-old Marilou Danley, who was wanted as a person of interest in the shooting.
(CBC)​
*AND*

*What we know about Stephen Paddock, the suspected gunman killed in standoff*

Authorities are still looking into Paddock’s background and history, according to Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department (LVMPD) Sheriff Joseph Lombardo. Lombardo said the police department had located a number of firearms in the room that he occupied in the hotel.

Officers will also be carrying out a search of Paddock’s home. Police said Paddock checked into the hotel as a guest.

He was not believed to be connected to any militant group, Lombardo said. Police have not called the shooting a terrorist attack.

“We have no idea what his belief system was,” Lombardo said. “Right now, we believe he was the sole aggressor and the scene is static.””

(GlobalNews)​


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

It is now reported there was no gun battle standoff with police. The suspect shot himself before police entered the room.


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

A very tragic and sad event that unfortunately has become all to normal.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

As harsh as this sounds, “who cares”. It’s just another one in a long list. I live across from Detroit and hardly a week goes by where a child has been killed by another child playing with their parents or grandparents loaded gun. Shooting at schools, what 3 times a year., might not make the news unless you hit double digits...Sandy Hook, never happened according to ultr-right broadcasters....yep those were great character actors at the school during the grieving scenes. Colleges, movie theatres, more people would be safe if everyone carried...yep nothing like a gun fight. Oh, fireworks downtown Detroit-Windsor, why bring your guns in open Carry, it’s okay. Only mentally ill would shoot others.....oh, we can’t put more stringent gun ownership rules out there....constitutional rights and all. If you’ve lived on a farm you know the difference between culling chickens and ducks. For you city dwellers it goes like this....in culling chickens you grab one do the deed, then another and another...it’s only when you have about 4 or so left they get suspicious. With ducks, you grab one to do the deed, they others follow to see what’s going on. When you do the deed you never see another duck for the rest of the day.....the U.S. has to decide are they chickens or ducks.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Rps: Yep. 

Shooter has been identified:










Police have named Stephen Paddock as the suspected gunman who killed at least 50 people and hospitalised more than 400 others at a Las Vegas concert.

The 64-year-old, of Mesquite, Nevada, sprayed bullets at music-lovers as a gig by country singer Jason Aldean was ending on Sunday night, said officers.

The suspect opened fire from a room on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino.

Paddock killed himself at the scene as officers closed in.

It is the deadliest shooting in modern US history, with the death toll surpassing the 49 killed at a nightclub in Orlando, Florida, in June 2016.
Las Vegas Sheriff Joseph Lombardo said investigators found "in excess of 10 rifles" in the hotel room that Paddock checked into on 28 September.

(BBC)


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> As harsh as this sounds, “who cares”. It’s just another one in a long list. I live across from Detroit and hardly a week goes by where a child has been killed by another child playing with their parents or grandparents loaded gun. Shooting at schools, what 3 times a year., might not make the news unless you hit double digits...Sandy Hook, never happened according to ultr-right broadcasters....yep those were great character actors at the school during the grieving scenes. Colleges, movie theatres, more people would be safe if everyone carried...yep nothing like a gun fight. Oh, fireworks downtown Detroit-Windsor, why bring your guns in open Carry, it’s okay. Only mentally ill would shoot others.....oh, we can’t put more stringent gun ownership rules out there....constitutional rights and all. If you’ve lived on a farm you know the difference between culling chickens and ducks. For you city dwellers it goes like this....in culling chickens you grab one do the deed, then another and another...it’s only when you have about 4 or so left they get suspicious. With ducks, you grab one to do the deed, they others follow to see what’s going on. When you do the deed you never see another duck for the rest of the day.....the U.S. has to decide are they chickens or ducks.


Yes it is harsh and it should make the news. Just because it happens time and again does not mean we should not morn the the lives lost and be empathetic to the grief of their loved ones. You should care all the more because is is another one in a long list.

Thousands die from natural disaster all over the world and we give aid and at least empathy to those affected. I am shocked at your post Rps, to compare a human life to that of a chicken or a duck is disgraceful. I know you were using it as a simile but it was a terrible example. The reason why these animals exist is because we made them to create sustenance for us. Huge difference. It is a good thing that the West didn't have this point of view during WWII during the Nazi's eliminating the Jews or whoever else they felt like.

Just because there is a systematic problem in the US with gun control you are going to have such a dark heart as to say who cares?!! Well I for one care even if you don't. It was a tragedy regardless of politics to those who died and their friends and family... THEY CARE!!!

Quite frankly I am shocked and dismayed by your response!!! IMO you should be ashamed of your response for its lack of caring, empathy, compassion and humanity. 

I could go on and on but will leave it at that.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Steve in the U.S. it is easier to get a gun than a drivers license....nuff said.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Steve in the U.S. it is easier to get a gun than a drivers license....nuff said.


No it is not, not is the least. Those are rules and laws made by legislators. This is 50 people dead with at least 200 more injured. There is not enough said, not by a long shot.

Your post simply indicated capitulation and cynicism. Uncaring, devoid of human empathy. All you seem to care about is the changing of the laws and not the victims of the current laws. If you truly cared about changing the current laws you would carer very much about what happened in Vegasy. 50 dead, at least 200 injured, compound that to at least probably 4-5 who knew them personally that equals at least 1250 people who care even if you don't.

Not caring is the absolute worst thing you can do. Do you care about Syrian, Libyan, Kurdish, Ukrainian, Mexican, etc., etc., refugees? If not, fine that is your choice, but by saying "who cares" about 50 dead and at least 200, that is just uncaring and putting politics before the lives of people. "They are just numbers in a growing pile, who cares, it is the same as it ever was. We have more pressing matters to deal with like the Muslim scourge."

That is what you sound like. You sound more like a member of the NRA than someone who supports gun control. You have given up and don't give a s** about the death toll. I really cannot begin to comprehend where you are coming from.

I could go on and on but will take a pause as I have to go pee...


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Steve, I’ve no intention to get into a heated argument with you. Yes it is sad and tragic, but the U.S. as a legislative body does not care. Every time this happens there is media indignation until something important like Beyonce’s pregnancy or an NFL player wearing a “ come together T-shirt” comes along. Many countries have changed their constitutions on gun control ( Australia comes to mind ) but not the U.S.....this is a country which put man on the moon, a task humanity thought was impossible, but they did it.....so it is easier putting man on the moon than gun control? The reason they could do one but not the other....they wanted to.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Steve in the U.S. it is easier to get a gun than a drivers license....nuff said.


There is no proof of that, I don't know where you are getting that from:

There's No Real Way To Tell How Many Guns Are Sold In America Each Year



> If you want to find out exactly how many guns are sold in the US each year, then the figures are not recorded.
> 
> However, if you want to know how many applications there are to buy guns each year, then the latest data from the FBI shows that 2012 looks like a bumper year for gun sales in America.
> 
> In the wake of the Newtown shooting in Connecticut, there is a renewed focus on gun control in the US. And, under US law, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System is used to check if someone can buy a gun from a federal registered dealer before they can walk out of the shop with it.


Highway Finance Data Collection



> Getting a drivers license marks a rite of passage for adolescents, and having one is seen as a sign of continuing independence for American seniors. In 2009, 87 percent of the driving-age population (age 16 and over) have a license. There are 685 drivers for every 1,000 residents. In 1960, just a few years after all states required driver licensing, there were only 487 drivers for every 1,000 residents.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Update: 58 Dead, including 2 Canadians (BC / Alberta): at least 515 injured.

Two Canadian among more than 50 dead in Las Vegas massacre | CTV Toronto News


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Steve, I’ve no intention to get into a heated argument with you. Yes it is sad and tragic, but the U.S. as a legislative body does not care. Every time this happens there is media indignation until something important like Beyonce’s pregnancy or an NFL player wearing a “ come together T-shirt” comes along. Many countries have changed their constitutions on gun control ( Australia comes to mind ) but not the U.S.....this is a country which put man on the moon, a task humanity thought was impossible, but they did it.....so it is easier putting man on the moon than gun control? *The reason they could do one but not the other....they wanted to*.


You are politically naive if you think that.

The main thing that sticks in my craw is you saying "who cares" about the 50 dead and over 200 injured. F**k legislation and the war between the right and the left or lack thereof regarding gun control in the US. THESE lives mattered, for you you to say "who cares" is a disgrace. Ch**st it was about half the Canadian lives lost in Afghanistan. For shame for you saying that.

You stand on your ideological pulpit while I sit in mourning for those lost and injured. I am comfortable with my position. 

I have to say I have lost some respect for your way of thinking.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Steve read the license requirements for guns, take Michigan for example, then compare for drivers license. Or you could look up articles on The Huffington Post, CNN, Washington Post, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, or, which is more fun, walk into a store like Meijers, Bass Pro, etc and just watch and listen....go to traveling Gun Show.....just watch and listen. I’ve done that and it’s harder getting your drivers license...we can debate but drive down to Plattsburgh sometime check it out...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_An interesting development...._

*Stephen Paddock's father was on FBI's 10 most wanted list*










The Las Vegas shooter's father was once on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.

Stephen Paddock killed more than 58 people when he opened fire on a concert in Las Vegas, spraying a concert with a hail of bullets. He shot himself before he could be apprehended.

And it has now emerged that his father, Patrick Benjamin Paddock, was known as a violent bank robber during the 1960s and 1970s. His crimes made him one of the most notorious criminals in the US during his heyday.

An FBI poster that is available online says that the Las Vegas killer's father “diagnosed as psychopathic, has carried firearms in commission of bank robberies” and “reportedly has suicidal tendencies and should be considered armed and very dangerous.”

Local news reports soon after his crimes were reported said that neighbours "couldn’t believe that the colorful businessman, then 34 years old, was involved in crime". Another report says that he was captured in 1978, when he was running a bingo parlor.

* * *​
The older Paddock was also involved in a violent attack in Las Vegas, according to a contemporaneous report in Tucson's Daily Citizen. When he was apprehended by the FBI, he attempted to run down an agent using his car, the report said.
(Independent UK)​


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

screature said:


> You are politically naive if you think that.
> 
> The main thing that sticks in my craw is you saying "who cares" about the 50 dead and over 200 injured. F**k legislation and the war between the right and the left or lack thereof regarding gun control in the US. THESE lives mattered, for you you to say "who cares" is a disgrace. Ch**st it was about half the Canadian lives lost in Afghanistan. For shame for you saying that.
> 
> ...


Steve, that is your right, but I have many contacts in the U.S., and right now they are praying for the families of the dead and injured, they did that when it happened in Colorado, Florida, New Jersey, Virginia, and now Nevada...what they should be doing is preying on the politicians .... use the “money is freedom of speech” the SCOUS said was fine and defeat their elected officials who are dragging their feet on sane gun control. Mark my words, a month from now we will be having this discussion again, only it will be some other city and some other unfortunates....and if you want to know what sad is.....it’s the fact that there was no change....


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## 18m2 (Nov 24, 2013)

I went to university in the US at the height of the Vietnam war, worked in the US extensively and have friends that live there. I don't discuss guns with those friends anymore. They're not going to change my opinion nor will I change theirs.

I agree with Rps, the average person in America will not push for gun reform rather they will focus on the next sports story or Trumpism.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

It's the culture as much as anything else. The Swiss all have rifles, but they're not used like this. Not hard for Canadians to amass a load of weaponry either--but our overall national psyche is different.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Correction: SECOND worst mass shooting in US history:

#1: December 29th, 1890 // Wounded Knee, South Dakota

150-300 killed:
90 men killed
200 women and children killed
51 wounded


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

Macfury said:


> It's the culture as much as anything else. The Swiss all have rifles, but they're not used like this. Not hard for Canadians to amass a load of weaponry either--but our overall national psyche is different.


That is the real issue that has no real answer on how to fix it. If you toughen gun laws now it will not change a thing, they are out there by the hundreds of thousands. The guns are not in themselves evil, it is the people using them. Fix the nut cases and you have no gun control problems.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Macfury said:


> It's the culture as much as anything else. The Swiss all have rifles, but they're not used like this. Not hard for Canadians to amass a load of weaponry either--but our overall national psyche is different.


Agreed, and the culture will be hard to change.....what will you bet gun sales and stocks will rise by double digits today....


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

Rps said:


> Agreed, and the culture will be hard to change.....what will you bet gun sales and stocks will rise by double digits today....


A natural reaction people have is to arm themselves to fend off when these things happen, so would not be surprised when gun sales rise.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

wonderings said:


> That is the real issue that has no real answer on how to fix it. If you toughen gun laws now it will not change a thing, they are out there by the hundreds of thousands. The guns are not in themselves evil, it is the people using them. Fix the nut cases and you have no gun control problems.


Partially true. The nut cases, to me, were just a spin to take the heat off the issue of uncontrollable gun access....someone has to be to blame, it’s those nut jobs not us....but the majority of deaths are not by mass shooting nut jobs. There are weekly occurrences reported were I live of children shooting themselves or other children after finding loaded guns in their family homes......carelessness kills as many. I have never been a gun lover, nor do I have the need for one....but if you have one I believe you have the responsibility to secure it.


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## macintosh doctor (Mar 23, 2009)

not sure how accurate this is but 
https://www.rt.com/usa/405409-isis-responsibility-vegas-shooting/


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

wonderings said:


> The guns are not in themselves evil, it is the people using them.


"If guns kill people mine must be defective..."


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

A couple of things that are missing. Has the ME done a gunpowder residue test on the supposed shooter or did they wash the body first thing? As always, perform and release a tox screen, not gonna happen!

The powder test should show whether he was the shooter, or the first to die when multiple paramilitary gunmen took over his room. I am leaning in the first to die direction, probably killed by the same three who did San Bernadino, but who knows? 

The tox screen again is crucial. Scopolamine indicates he did it but under the control of others. SSRIs or SSRI withdrawal would be a major indictment of big pharma. Any recreational drugs or alcohol whatsoever goes a long way to disproving Muslim fundamentalist claims.

Other than the CIA/ISIL claim that he was a Muslim convert, I have seen no solid evidence put forth to support that.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

wonderings said:


> A natural reaction people have is to arm themselves to fend off when these things happen, so would not be surprised when gun sales rise.


Wondering, I live near Michigan and we get a lot of news on gun control. So, let’s see, in recents weeks they are passing laws to allow silencers on guns for people with carry licenses, allowed people on no fly lists to buy guns, removed restrictions on those with mental illness to buy guns, and of course everyone needs an AK47 type military weapon ( not a defensive weapon ) and have not enforced background checks on sales at gun shows......culture, maybe, hegemony by gun lobby most certainly.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Something we forget about the no fly lists is that individuals who are considered to be genuine terrorist threats are never on them. The "good" guys don't want to tip their hand that these guys are under surveillance. You are far more likely to see the individuals known for participating in peaceful protests as they are a real threat to the globalist agenda.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

eMacMan said:


> Something we forget about the no fly lists is that individuals who are considered to be genuine terrorist threats are never on them. The "good" guys don't want to tip their hand that these guys are under surveillance. You are far more likely to see the individuals known for participating in peaceful protests as they are a real threat to the globalist agenda.


That maybe but......a list is a list....so why have it in the first place .... and of course no peaceful protest has ever turned violent right....


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## 18m2 (Nov 24, 2013)

Americans don't believe free access to guns is a problem and that is unlikely to change. There is no reason for bump stocks to be allowed. All they do is spray bullets.

From the BBC ...


> Following the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Connecticut in 2012, California Senator Dianne Feinstein introduced a bill that sought to ban bump-stocks and similar devices, saying that manufacturers were exploiting "loopholes" to circumvent gun laws. However, the bill was defeated in the Senate.


Las Vegas shooting: Did guns use bump-stocks to fire more? - BBC News


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

You can make guns using a 3D printer. That genie is out of the bottle.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Macfury said:


> You can make guns using a 3D printer. That genie is out of the bottle.


Yup! In fact wasn’t the first publicized item made by a 3D printer a gun?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> Something we forget about the no fly lists is that individuals who are considered to be genuine terrorist threats are never on them. The "good" guys don't want to tip their hand that these guys are under surveillance. You are far more likely to see the individuals known for participating in peaceful protests as they are a real threat to the globalist agenda.





Rps said:


> That maybe but......a list is a list....so why have it in the first place .... and of course no peaceful protest has ever turned violent right....


Ever notice how the guys who instigate the violence are almost never charged? Sometimes they even run towards the police to protect them if other protestors are determined to keep it peaceful. 

Sometimes it does get out of hand, but that is all to the benefit of those who are the target of the protest as it shifts the message away from the protest itself and towards the violence. Someone as cynical as me might conclude that the instigators are paid and protected by the protests target to accomplish exactly that.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Yup! In fact wasn’t the first publicized item made by a 3D printer a gun?


You keep avoiding the obvious objection that I have to to your post over and over and over again. "WHO CARES". You seem to think it to be some clever intellectual play on words. "Who cares this keeps happening over and over again without any change. Gun laws need to be changed before there is any indication that someone cares, until then who gives a chite". I get it because you have cold heatedly posted nothing but statistics about gun violence in the US and how easy it is to get a gun. True enough, but for the very first words from you to be "who cares", that is just disrespectful to the dead and injured and their friends and families.

You have never once even expressed any empathy or sympathy for the dead, wounded and their families. Not once, no indication that you give a rat's ass about the humanity just the ideology and policy, personally I find that deplorable.

When my Mother died, their were about 70 people who showed up to express their condolences, when my father died there were about the same number... So lets just do a little math, maybe not everyone who were killed would show up in the same numbers. But then there are those were wounded, 500+, they for the most part had families and friends who love and care about them. So let us just say for averaging sake, every person who was killed affects (people who care) around 30 people, that is 1500 people,

For those that were injured those affected (people who care) would be less so let's say half. 15 for every one of the 500+ injured. That equals 7500, so all together equals about 9000 people who directly care about what happened.

So yeah REAL people do care and it affected them greatly, and then there are those like me who actually have empathy and sympathy for those killed and injured and they probably count in the 10s of thousands.

You seem to think that just because this latest incident is becoming common place in the US because certain people, legislators, that we as individuals should not care. Probably you think that way because too many people refuse to amend the 2nd Amendment.

If anything this incident should strengthen your resolve to care. You're statement basically cynically says I give up "why should anyone care anymore".

I will hope that you will at least change your position enough to express some empathy and sympathy for those who died and were injured. Had you done this to begin your post we would not be having this discussion now.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Steve, go back and read post #9 of this thread. It is sad this happened and my intent is to not get into an argument. So if you think much less of me and my post I am sorry for that but unless the U.S. cares to do something this will happen again and again. We are on day 276 of the current year and todate we have seen 268 mass shootings in the U.S. for the same time period. Who cares?.......they don’t seem to.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

stupid forum


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

repeat


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Steve, go back and read post #9 of this thread. It is sad this happened and my intent is to not get into an argument. So if you think much less of me and my post I am sorry for that but unless the U.S. cares to do something this will happen again and again. We are on day 276 of the current year and todate we have seen 268 mass shootings in the U.S. for the same time period. Who cares?.......they don’t seem to.


My god man, have you no heart, no compassion?

If you died of cancer I would care:

On average, 565 Canadians will be diagnosed with cancer every day.
On average, 221 Canadians will die from cancer every day.

Just because there is no immediate cure does not mean that we should not care. 

Your logic for not caring is flawed and heartless. I am quite shocked how you will not express any sympathy for the victims in Las Vegas. You are only interested in policy and legislation and don't give a rat's ass about the victims of the very legislation who you claim you want to protect by new legislation. That is so f**cked up dude.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

screature said:


> No.
> 
> The first ever 3D-printed object was pretty boring
> 
> Open for Business: 3-D Printer Creates First Object in Space on International Space Station


 There were many more as well.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Steve, go back and read post #9 of this thread. It is sad this happened and my intent is to not get into an argument. So if you think much less of me and my post I am sorry for that but unless the U.S. cares to do something this will happen again and again. We are on day 276 of the current year and todate we have seen 268 mass shootings in the U.S. for the same time period. Who cares?.......they don’t seem to.


I have read #9 many times, it does not change my point of view regarding your post in the least.

I am perfectly willing to argue this point because I think you and your thinking and lack of feeling are completely wrong. BLACK LIVES MATTER! So do those in Las Vegas. I know it is different in situation but the same in principle. LIVES MATTER!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Rps said:


> Who cares?.......they don’t seem to.


I think you should watch this if you think Americans don't care. Listen for the emotion while you are at it. 





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

SINC said:


> I think you should watch this if you think Americans don't care. Listen for the emotion while you are at it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sinc, I saw this and he is basically echoing my postings above. Yes it is sad and a disgusting action. And yes I do feel for those who were touched by this, but as Kimmel points out, where is the action to prevent this. Have worked on this issue for a long time Sinc, very little has changed, why, because those in power care not to. Do not interpret my posts as not feeling for those who have lost or had someone injured, as some might think, but unless there is a critical mass to change the culture things won’t change.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

SINC said:


> I think you should watch this if you think Americans don't care. Listen for the emotion while you are at it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jimmy Kimmel certainly cares. That was genuine emotion from his show. Sadly, as he points out, those with the political power to do something just will not act in any meaningful manner. This week they are voting on lifting the ban on silencers.


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## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

Dr.G. said:


> Jimmy Kimmel certainly cares. That was genuine emotion from his show. Sadly, as he points out, those with the political power to do something just will not act in any meaningful manner. This week they are voting on lifting the ban on silencers.


what do you propose they do? The guns are out there in the millions already. Sure adding stricter gun control will make it harder for anyone to get new guns, but there will be more then enough guns floating around that I doubt anyone would even notice. 

Had not heard anything about silencers, that just seems idiotic to remove a ban on those unless they are just being considerate to those who like to shoot late at night in their backyards and not wake the neighbours.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

wonderings said:


> what do you propose they do? The guns are out there in the millions already. Sure adding stricter gun control will make it harder for anyone to get new guns, but there will be more then enough guns floating around that I doubt anyone would even notice.
> 
> Had not heard anything about silencers, that just seems idiotic to remove a ban on those unless they are just being considerate to those who like to shoot late at night in their backyards and not wake the neighbours.


Wondering it is called the SHUSH Act. But back to what you can do....you need to look at best practices in other countries and model new purchases and licensing after them.

You are right there are too many out there to try to fix it in the short term. So you start buy backs, treat licenses as you would car licenses and they must be renewed, say every five years...and mandatory checks nationally not the piece meal they have now. That would be a start. In the U.S. most states do not have a gun safety course like they do in Canada, some not even a written exam. Expand the list of restricted weapons, have a logical waiting period, ours is 60 day, theirs not so much. Treat gun ownership as you would drunk driving, with responsibilities and punishments for infractions. We talk about mass shootings but many deaths are a result of children shooting each other after finding loaded weapons at home. Finally, make open carry extremely difficult to get. Finally, have new gun license and gun owners pay an insurance premium to finance gun education and fund casualty claims. That would be a good start without touching Second Amendment Rights. Last resort, better control on the bullets, but that would be an NRA battle to be sure.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Rps said:


> You are right there are too many out there to try to fix it in the short term. So you start buy backs...


Buy backs have proved extremely ineffective. In order to work, law enforcement must promise never to test the weapons in relation to the seller and any crime. The program becomes a way for criminals to dispose of evidence using guns they no longer want to own.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Macfury said:


> Buy backs have proved extremely ineffective. In order to work, law enforcement must promise never to test the weapons in relation to the seller and any crime. The program becomes a way for criminals to dispose of evidence using guns they no longer want to own.


But what is your goal, catching a criminal or getting guns off the street? Remember this is a long term strategy to change the culture. What really is needed is to have citizens believe they are safe without guns. Read, social and economic change as well. The problem with cultural change is time.....many times we don’t give the measures enough time to capture and remediate the issues. You can’t just treat symptoms.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Macfury said:


> Buy backs have proved extremely ineffective. In order to work, law enforcement must promise never to test the weapons in relation to the seller and any crime. The program becomes a way for criminals to dispose of evidence using guns they no longer want to own.


Wish I could find the clips but the better weapons have been known to disappear or get resold at police auctions, leaving only the Saturday Night specials to be melted down.


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Dr.G. said:


> This week they are voting on lifting the ban on silencers.





wonderings said:


> Had not heard anything about silencers, that just seems idiotic to remove a ban on those unless they are just being considerate to those who like to shoot late at night in their backyards and not wake the neighbours.


Please, the correct terminology is "suppressors". And, as noted in an article I just posted in the Gun Control Thread, they do not silence the weapon, despite what TV shows promote.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

FeXL said:


> Please, the correct terminology is "suppressors". And, as noted in an article I just posted in the Gun Control Thread, they do not silence the weapon, despite what TV shows promote.


Oh! So you would argue that Silencershop.com is wrong?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

wonderings said:


> what do you propose they do? The guns are out there in the millions already. Sure adding stricter gun control will make it harder for anyone to get new guns, but there will be more then enough guns floating around that I doubt anyone would even notice.
> 
> Had not heard anything about silencers, that just seems idiotic to remove a ban on those unless they are just being considerate to those who like to shoot late at night in their backyards and not wake the neighbours.


Strictly ban the sale of certain types of ammo and clips to any and all citizens. They can be used in the military and with police forces, but it I have an AK-47 in my hands without any ammo, I might as well have a baseball bat. This way, the government is not taking away my gun ............ just limiting me to what sorts of ammo I can buy for my gun. So, if I am a hunter, I can buy ammo since these are not automatic weapons which are used to kill a great many people in as short a time as possible.

Controversial gun silencer measure advances - POLITICO

Hillary Clinton talks gun silencer bill after massacre - CNNPolitics

Congress Wants to Make It Easier to Buy a Silencer | Time.com


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

The official version is rapidly deteriorating to the point where the lone gunman narrative can be written off as BS.

Now it is touted as the worst massacre ever.

Slow down pardner just a couple of examples to put this into perspective.

Mountain Meadows not the sanitized LDS version:
Mountain Meadows Massacre | HistoryNet

Wounded Knee remember the Indians had been almost completely disarmed when they were gunned down:
https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/history/events/the-truth-about-the-wounded-knee-massacre/



> On Friday, September 11, hope appeared in the form of a white flag. The emigrants let the emissary, a Mormon from a nearby settlement, into their fort, and then John D. Lee, the local Indian agent, followed. Lee told the Arkansans he and his men had come to rescue them from the Indians. If the emigrants would lay down their arms, the local militia would escort them to safety. The travelers had few options: they surrendered and agreed to Lee’s strange terms.
> 
> 
> The Mormons separated the survivors into three groups: the wounded and youngest children led the way in two wagons; the women and older children walked behind; and the men, each escorted by an armed guard, brought up the rear. Lee led this forlorn parade more than a mile to the California Trail and the rim of the Great Basin. There, the senior Mormon officer escorting the men gave an order: perhaps “Halt!” but by most accounts, “Do your duty!” A single shot rang out, and each escort turned and shot his man. Painted savages—a few of whom may have been actual Indians—jumped out of the oak brush lining the trail and cut down the women and children, while Lee directed the murder of the wounded. Within five minutes, the atrocity was over. Everyone was dead except for 17 orphans, all under the age of 7, whom the killers deemed too young to be credible witnesses and who qualified as “innocent blood” under Mormon doctrine.
> ...





> On the morning of December 29, 1890, Chief Spotted Elk (Big Foot), leader of a band of some 350 Minneconjou Sioux, sat in a makeshift camp along the banks of Wounded Knee Creek. The band was surrounded by U.S. troops sent to arrest him and disarm his followers. The atmosphere was tense, since an order to arrest Chief Sitting Bull at the Standing Rock Reservation just 14 days earlier had resulted in his murder, prompting Big Foot to lead his people to the Pine Ridge Agency for safe haven. Alerted to the band’s Ghost Dance activities, General Nelson Miles commanded Major Samuel Whiteside and the Seventh Cavalry to apprehend Big Foot and his followers, and the regiment intercepted them on December 28, leading them to the edge of the creek. While confiscating their weapons, a shot pierced the brisk morning air. Within seconds the charged atmosphere erupted as the Indian men rushed to retrieve their confiscated rifles and troopers began to fire volley after volley into the Sioux camp. From a hill above, a Hotchkiss machine gun raked the tipis, gun smoke filled the air, and men, women, and children ran for a ravine near the camp, only to be cut down in crossfire. More than 200 Lakota lay dead or dying in the aftermath as well as at least 20 soldiers.


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

FeXL said:


> Please, the correct terminology is "suppressors". And, as noted in an article I just posted in the Gun Control Thread, they do not silence the weapon, despite what TV shows promote.


Once the door is open how will it be before they are completely silent? Right now the paperwork takes a long time to clear so the sales are not great (relative to other firearms related accessories). Make it easier to purchase and you bet the manufacturers will invest money getting the most silent suppressor possible. 

You can already get pretty close with subsonic ammunition, use a long barrel silencer that is for a rifle on a 9mm, add wire gels, and so on and so on...


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Americans Hopeful This Will Be Last Mass Shooting Before They Stop On Their Own For No Reason*










WASHINGTON—Expressing a sense of guarded optimism that the latest incident of gun violence that left 58 dead and 500 injured in Las Vegas would be a turning point for the nation, Americans across the country confirmed Monday they were hopeful this would be the last mass shooting before all such occurrences stopped on their own for no reason at all. 

“After something as horrific as what happened in Las Vegas, we’re all just hoping that now these terrible shootings will stop once and for all without circumstances changing in any way or any of us taking even the slightest amount of action in response,” said Harrisburg, PA resident David Snyder, echoing the sentiments of tens of millions of citizens from coast to coast who told reporters they were confident that, after living through the most deadly mass shooting in modern American history and taking no material steps to change gun laws, reevaluate safety standards, increase access to mental health care, or even have a national conversation about how mass shootings could be avoided in the future, tragedies of this kind would at long last come to an end. “Having seen acts of violence like this happen over and over again for years now, I’m really holding out hope that, despite every single factor that allowed them to occur remaining exactly the same, we won’t have to live through another day like today. 

I know everyone’s praying this will finally be the time this issue just disappears forever entirely by itself without anyone doing anything.” At press time, Americans nationwide agreed that years of taking no measures whatsoever to prevent mass shootings may finally be paying off.
(The Onion)​


----------



## FUXL (Nov 2, 2016)

Souiee! Souiee!! Souiee!!!

Hey you false news, neo nazi apologists, why don't you play spot the shared characteristics of American Mass Murders!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

The official narrative has gone off the rails.

No evidence that the "shooter" owned or had any interest in guns. In fact those who knew him saw no sign of that. I lived next door to a rabid NRA type. He showed me every purchase. I was even aware that he made his own barrels for his hand guns, that way if he ever had to use one he could discard the barrel and any one testing the weapon would not find a match.

Way too many guns at the scene for a single shooter. I can see 2 or 3 automatic weapons and a whack of loaded clips, but 23. BTW I can't believe he had so effectively hidden 13 guns in a hotel room that even the most moronic of cops could miss them on the first sweep. If he had that many weapons why kill himself? I think he would fight it out, just for the adrenaline rush.

Very high kill ratio. Shooting down from 30+ stories only an experienced shooter would consistently hit his mark. The reason is that the horizontal distance is quite a bit less than the hypotenuse distance. An experienced marksman would shoot a little low to compensate. Also the high kill ratio speaks to multiple shooters taking the time to line up their shots. Random fire would produce a lot more injuries than kills.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Rps said:


> Oh! So you would argue that Silencershop.com is wrong?


About what? The correct terminology? Yes.

Same as many people incorrectly using the word "clip" instead of "magazine".


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

FeXL, I just love it when people get extremely technical to try to defeat common sense arguments.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Rps said:


> FeXL, I just love it when people get extremely technical to try to defeat common sense arguments.


I'm not arguing for or against.

I would just like the correct terminology used.


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Further on Bill's Wife, the "silencer" expert.

Area Drunken Obese Woman Has Important Opinions on Shooting

First off, the twit's tweet:



> The crowd fled at the sound of gunshots.
> 
> Imagine the deaths if the shooter had a silencer, which the NRA wants to make easier to get.
> — Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) October 2, 2017​


​
And the response:



> Even the National Laughingstock is calling bull**** on this drunk's babblings:
> 
> Actually, even with "a silencer," it's pretty loud. An AR-15 rifle would have a noise equivalent to a jack hammer. https://t.co/rL1YFuAB5b https://t.co/YE9smBZqGG
> — Glenn Kessler (@GlennKesslerWP) October 2, 2017​


The facts, from the link in the second tweet above:



> A 30-decibel reduction in theory means an AR-15 rifle would have a noise equivalent of 132 decibels. *That is considered equivalent to a gunshot or a jackhammer.* A .22-caliber pistol would be 116 decibels, which is louder than a 100-watt car stereo. In all likelihood, the noise level is actually higher.


They sum:



> *In the meantime, although the popular name of this accessory is a silencer, foes of the law such as Gillibrand should not use misleading terms such as “quiet” to describe the sound made by a high-powered weapon with a suppressor attached. We wavered between Two and Three Pinocchios, but finally tipped to Three. There is little that’s quiet about a firearm with a silencer, unless one also thinks a jackhammer is quiet.*


M'bold.

Imagine that. A WaPo article that is fair & balanced.

And another Progressive narrative falls by the wayside...


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Deranged Cleric Ties Las Vegas Shooting To "Disrespect" For Trump*

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etOa8-pFow4[/ame]

There are voters in this country who worry about Sharia Law, but this deranged cleric?

He's got the ear of Republican leadership. Because Pat Robertson crazy is useful.

And here's the latest: the "disrespect" for Donald Trump led to the Las Vegas massacre. No really.

_PAT ROBERTSON: Violence in the streets, ladies and gentlemen. Why is it happening? The fact that we have disrespect for authority; *there is profound disrespect for our president, all across this nation they say terrible things about him*. It’s in the news, it’s in other places. There is disrespect now for our national anthem, disrespect for our veterans, disrespect for the institutions of our government, disrespect for the court system. All the way up and down the line, disrespect.

Until there is biblical authority, there has to be some controlling authority in our society and there is none. And when there is no vision of God, the people run amok … and we have taken from the American people the vision of God, the whole idea of reward and punishment, an ultimate judge of all our actions, we’ve taken that away. When there is no vision of God, the people run amok._​
Where was your respect for authority regarding Obama, Pat? In 2014, you prayed on TV to be "delivered from this president."

(Crooks & Liars)​


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

So, for those of you who are making a show of this mass murder, why are you doing it?

For the great "gotcha" moment because the shooter is white? Because of the "machine gun" weaponry used? Because it was 50-odd people at a time? Some other Progressive reason?

The reason I ask is because there are more gun deaths than this every month in Chicago.

GUN CONTROL? The Las Vegas Death Toll Happens Every MONTH In Chicago



> The murder toll in Las Vegas on Sunday makes it the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history.Know what they call that in Chicago? June.
> 
> Actually, there were 84 murders in Chicago, just in June, according to DNAinfo.com, which keeps a running tally.
> 
> ...


More:



> *In July of this year, there 115 people shot in the city — in a single week.* And since Emanuel was elected in 2011, the murder rate has risen. In 2012: 509 killed; in 2013 that dropped to 442; in 2014, that rose slightly to 428; then in 2015, jumped to 495; and in 2016, the murder rate soared to 751. The city is on pace for about 700 murders again this year.
> 
> After the mass shooting in Las Vegas, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders cited *the city of Chicago as not exactly a shining beacon of successful gun-control legislation.*
> 
> "One of the things that we don’t want to do, is try to create laws that won't stop these types of things from happening," Sanders said on Monday. *"I think if you look to Chicago where you had over 4,000 victims of gun-related crimes, they have the strictest gun laws in the country and that certainly hasn’t helped there."*


M'bold.

First off, what this clearly indicates is that gun control does nothing to curb deaths by firearm.

Second, once again I ask why? Do black lives not matter? Is blacks killing blacks by the hundreds with illegal firearms every year in a single city not cringeworthy enough? Going against the narrative somehow? Something else I'm missing?

Third, if you disagree with my initial observation, describe precisely how you think gun control of any kind will fix the situation in Chicago.

Fourth, if the big city murders really do bother you why have so few people beside myself posted about them on these boards?


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Sinc, I saw this and he is basically echoing my postings above. Yes it is sad and a disgusting action. And yes I do feel for those who were touched by this, but as Kimmel points out, where is the action to prevent this. Have worked on this issue for a long time Sinc, very little has changed, why, because those in power care not to. Do not interpret my posts as not feeling for those who have lost or had someone injured, as some might think, but unless there is a critical mass to change the culture things won’t change.


There you f**cking go again. You are obstinate any ornery. Why can you not simply express decent human emotion and feel sympathy, empathy and condolences for those who died and those who were were injured injured.

Itf you can not do that I have no interest is speaking to your further about this matter and possibly others.

Oh BTW Tom Petty died the other day. "Who cares".


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

FeXL said:


> So, for those of you who are making a show of this mass murder, why are you doing it?
> 
> For the great "gotcha" moment because the shooter is white? Because of the "machine gun" weaponry used? Because it was 50-odd people at a time? Some other Progressive reason?
> 
> ...


You know what FeXl your tired old rhetoric is boring, "who cares". It does not matter what happened it is the same chite that you spout here ad nausea. You never ever have anything new to say. Your posts are dull and boring and I for one will never read or reply to them again.

You don't give a s**t and neither do I, Same as it ever was.

Despite all that I wish you all the best for you and your family, may you all have long life, health and prosperity.

Good bye.

Steve


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

Well, I guess there's no point in responding to your false accusations then.

I'll let them stand as the bitter ramblings they are.



screature said:


> ...I for one will never read or reply to them again...


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

A couple of interesting sidebars:

Some photos from ABC. Notice that despite the huge number of shots fired there are at most a handful of shell casings. This even though the body has not yet been moved.
A glimpse inside the Las Vegas shooter's hotel room - ABC News

I see the lame stream is starting to pimp a massive increase in security at hotels and other venues. Seems Chertoff and some other usual suspects are poised to make a killing from this event. Please forgive the bad taste pun. 

Yep those dangerous back scatter scanners that were eventually removed from most airports may well find new life.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

screature said:


> There you f**cking go again.


I was just thinking the same thing. Happy coincidence.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

A rebuttal of Kimmel. Haven't decided what I agree or disagree with, but it's worth airing other perspectives. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxJWVWXOHPA[/ame]

17 minutes,


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Beej said:


> A rebuttal of Kimmel. Haven't decided what I agree or disagree with, but it's worth airing other perspectives.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxJWVWXOHPA
> 
> 17 minutes,


The guy makes a lot of points that on the surface, appear to make sense. Whether or not his version is any more helpful than Kimmel's is still debatable in my mind. It is a complex US problem that will not be solved by either one and will take some time for lawmakers to propose possible solutions.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Hmmmm, possible?

Report: Suspected Las Vegas gunman was prescribed medication that can cause aggression | TheHill


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

SINC said:


> Hmmmm, possible?
> 
> Report: Suspected Las Vegas gunman was prescribed medication that can cause aggression | TheHill


Surprise surprise, an SSRI. Tox screen anyone?

That said I am becoming convinced that the supposed gunman was dead before the shootings started and that multiple paramilitary types carried out the attack. The $Billion$ that Chertoff and the rest of that cartel stand to make via enhanced security measures, make it very difficult to ignore the possibility that this was an incident staged to create a demand.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Sinc, I saw this and he is basically echoing my postings above. Yes it is sad and a disgusting action. And yes I do feel for those who were touched by this, but as Kimmel points out, where is the action to prevent this. Have worked on this issue for a long time Sinc, very little has changed, why, because those in power care not to. *Do not interpret my posts as not feeling for those who have lost or had someone injured, as some might think, but unless there is a critical mass to change the culture things won’t change.*


Maybe if you had stated this earlier, we would have not had the exchanges that we did. Maybe, just maybe if you started your first post with with something like, "My heart goes out to those killed, injured and their family and friends..." and then move onto the politics of things. First impressions and all that you know... as you first and subsequently posted you really didn't have any particular sympathy or empathy for the dead, injured or their loved ones it was just part of the same old same old. It was almost like you thought, "well what do you expect, in a way they kind of deserved it. Country music fans, probably Republicans, if they voted differently maybe this would not have happened.

Did you look at my post about cancer? We have the monetary means to cure cancer in our lifetime, if only "someone cared" enough. The search for a cure for cancer is basically funded by public donations. How about if we had legislation that allocated a specific *dedicated* amount of funding for better treatment and finally a cure for cancer by both Provincial and Federal Governments. Almost 4x as many people in Canada alone die every day from Cancer than those killed at Las Vegas, every day. But "who cares it didn't involve me or my family and the governments don't seem to care so why should I."

My friend IMO you need to take a step back and look at the bigger issues and what is a greater scourge on our citizens. Go ahead support gun control by all means, but it ranks really low in terms of percentages when it comes to deaths on an annual basis.

IMO you cynicism, i.e. "who cares" is first false and cynical in its implication and second your statement "who cares" is completely misplaced in cause when it comes to public policy that could save thousand of people's lives peoples every year.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Rps said:


> Sinc, I saw this and he is basically echoing my postings above. Yes it is sad and a disgusting action. And yes I do feel for those who were touched by this, but as Kimmel points out, where is the action to prevent this. Have worked on this issue for a long time Sinc, very little has changed, why, because those in power care not to. Do not interpret my posts as not feeling for those who have lost or had someone injured, as some might think, but unless there is a critical mass to change the culture things won’t change.


No he did not, you seem to have selective hearing. He started with what you didn't. Emotion, empathy and sympathy to express what he said throughout.

You said "Yes it is sad and a disgusting action. And yes I do feel for those who were touched by this". Really? It seems your first concern was legislative and political. I find that sad, cynical and disheartening and less than genuine.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Beej said:


> A rebuttal of Kimmel. Haven't decided what I agree or disagree with, but it's worth airing other perspectives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.
Ha! Ha! Wow! Just Wow. The guy can certainly speak quickly. I will give him that. Every statement he makes to counter Kimmel's statements are without support or evidence as well, probably just chite he read off of some NRA related website.

The guy is as about as genuine as a $3 bill. His political motives are as transparent as he claims Kimmel's to be, except I bet if you look at the list of his paid subscribers they are all members of the NRA. He makes a couple of valid points here and there but he reminds of an Evangelical Preacher.

That said he also scares me , he may be the next big mass murderer in waiting, or maybe he just wants to kill Jimmy Kimmel.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

SINC said:


> The guy makes a lot of points that on the surface, appear to make sense.


He's a frequent conservative commentator on the topic. Piers Morgan interviewed him on the topic years ago (maybe after Sandy Hook?). Definitely check any claims you find dubious. There have already been "fact check" and "fact check check" responses in media.

I wouldn't compare him to Kimmel. Compare him to someone thoughtful and knowledgeable who has a liberal perspective.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> The official narrative has gone off the rails.
> 
> No evidence that the "shooter" owned or had any interest in guns. In fact those who knew him saw no sign of that. I lived next door to a rabid NRA type. He showed me every purchase. I was even aware that he made his own barrels for his hand guns, that way if he ever had to use one he could discard the barrel and any one testing the weapon would not find a match.
> 
> ...


Ok so you have 25K people sitting down in close quarters like this::










Just a mass of people, and you start unloading automatic gunfire on a densely populated crowd sitting around. They don't know where it is coming from, no idea where to go so there is no means of dispersion, they all form a pack of people not knowing where to go hoping they are not next.

So do the math: 53 killed in a a crowd of 25000 equals 1 in 472 killed, 500 injured equals 1 in 50 injured. Considering the circumstances and the density and sitting position of most of the victims, the numbers seem totally reasonable and possible to me for it being one shooter.

Why is it that you conspiracy theorists always suspect there was a second shooter?


----------



## wonderings (Jun 10, 2003)

screature said:


> Ok so you have 24K people sitting down in close quarters like think this::
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing, anyone could hit and kill a large number of people in a crowd like that with zero shooting experience. As long as you can hold the gun forward as you pull the trigger you are going to hit people. We can be thankful it was only 58, in a crowd that size and that tightly packed together and experienced shooter could have done far more damage.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

wonderings said:


> I was thinking the same thing, anyone could hit and kill a large number of people in a crowd like that with zero shooting experience. As long as you can hold the gun forward as you pull the trigger you are going to hit people. We can be thankful it was only 58, in a crowd that size and that tightly packed together and experienced shooter could have done far more damage.


I don't even think it was necessary to have an experienced shooter at all and maybe an experienced shooter to do less damage. After all an experienced shoot would have to take the time to aim... this clearly a random, kill anyone you can kill attack.

Cripes when I think about it he could have strapped two automatic rifles together with duct tape with a small wooded, or plastic weddge, or whatever between the two to make a more efficient killing weapon. The angle of difference would not need to be that great for a much greater affect from that difference. It would be easy. Take a little bit of something and wedge it between the butts of the two rifles and strap them together with duck tape, that way you can shoot two riffles at once or just choose one or the the other. Easy peesy stuff for someone intent to kill at that range.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't pretend to know a lot about guns, but weapons professionals say that it would be physically difficult to sustain automatic weapons fire for 10 straight minutes. It isn't that the bullets couldn't hit that many people, but that the shooter couldn't maintain that level of fire alone.



wonderings said:


> I was thinking the same thing, anyone could hit and kill a large number of people in a crowd like that with zero shooting experience. As long as you can hold the gun forward as you pull the trigger you are going to hit people. We can be thankful it was only 58, in a crowd that size and that tightly packed together and experienced shooter could have done far more damage.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I don't pretend to know a lot about guns, but weapons professionals say that it would be physically difficult to sustain automatic weapons fire for 10 straight minutes. It isn't that the bullets couldn't hit that many people, but that the shooter couldn't maintain that level of fire alone.


Is that a quote from the NRA?

He most likely had shoulder protection or some other means in which to mitigate the other physical affects of such sustained fire. Or indeed there may have been a second shooter, strange though if true how he got away so quickly. I suspect watching too many season of watching the "Black List" is affecting your posts.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

To me the notion of a second shooter is just BS spouted by the usual suspects. I don't know why they do it. I guess it is some sort of game for them. They sound off even before all evidence has been collected and based on what has been collected, within 3 days of what happened they think they have a more accurate point of view, or at the very least express doubt about what they are being to by reporters and the media.

They are free to do that, but they are not free to fabricate suspicion and disclaim first hand accounts before all the evidence is in... But you you know the thing about conspiracy theorists is that even after all the evidence is in the will say that it is, false, has been manipulated, is pure lies etc.

So there is no logical argumentation with these guys because they have already decided what is the truth and no argument or evidence will sway them. So it is just best to nod, say how do you do and move on.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't suspect a second shooter or know what the "Black List" is.



screature said:


> Is that a quote from the NRA?
> 
> He most likely had shoulder protection or some other means in which to mitigate the other physical affects of such sustained fire. Or indeed there may have been a second shooter, strange though if true how he got away so quickly. I suspect watching too many season of watching the "Black List" is affecting your posts.


----------



## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

screature said:


> Ok so you have 25K people sitting down in close quarters… … …
> Just a mass of people, and you start unloading automatic gunfire on a densely populated crowd sitting around. They don't know where it is coming from, no idea where to go so there is no means of dispersion, they all form a pack of people not knowing where to go hoping they are not next.
> 
> So do the math: 53 killed in a a crowd of 25000 equals 1 in 472 killed, 500 injured equals 1 in 50 injured. Considering the circumstances and the density and sitting position of most of the victims, the numbers seem totally reasonable and possible to me for it being one shooter.
> … … …



Also just as I've mentioned to my wife, the guy, luckily for the crowd, was sure a rotten marksman shooter.

And BTW, in the ABC etc. news photos of the shooters room and some of the guns — where are all the spent cartridges that should be all over the floor. 900± rounds worth should make quite a cluttering mess I'd say …


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> I don't suspect a second shooter or know what the "Black List" is.


Ok Good. ehhMac makes me a little paranoid at times. My bad.

Carry on...


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

pm-r said:


> Also just as I've mentioned to my wife, the guy, luckily for the crowd, was sure a rotten marksman shooter.
> 
> And BTW, in the ABC etc. news photos of the shooters room and some of the guns — where are all the spent cartridges that should be all over the floor. 900± rounds worth should make quite a cluttering mess I'd say …


So what pictures have you seen? Could you post some links? I have seen none. From your post it seems your wife was there. Is she OK?

Edit: Sorry I misread your post. I agree with you and your wife.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

The absence of photos showing spent casings, doesn't mean there were no spent casings. Likewise. the idea of a second shooter inside the hotel should have resulted in another broken window, more casings and more powder. 

Everything should be investigated, but if someone begins with the premise that the local police department, the FBI and mainstream media were all in on this, nothing will satisfy them. I tend to believe that no major conspiracy can survive with the large number of people who would have had to participate, and the nature of our blabbermouth culture.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I didn't interpret pm-r's post to infer his wife was there, just that he mentioned his viewpoint to her in passing conversation at home. 

I also doubt any marksmanship was anticipated or attempted, given the glow of so many lights into a darkened crowd 32 stories below the shooter at a quarter mile range. It was more like spraying bullets in the general direction to see how many he could hit. Kind of like a shotgun fired just within range of a flock of ducks, some pellets might hit, most would not.

At least that would be my take on the shooter.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Might as well throw this into the mix as well.
Las Vegas: Bellagio Hotel Guests And Staff Confirm Multiple Shooters

Also heard one witness report of shootings at the Cosmopolitan and possibly other hotels. If so I could not find any news reports, or they are being suppressed. Put a big  here, as this may simply be deliberate attempts to obscure what really happened.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

_Y'all might find this one interesting...._

*U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE CONTRACTOR SHARES NAME WITH COMPANY THAT BOUGHT PADDOCK’S PLANE IN 2013*

Are *Volant LLC* and *Volant Associates*, both in the CIA’s backyard, completely different organizations, as some are sure to say? Maybe. But I think they’re close enough for government work, especially CIA cut out work, and easily appropriate for the Coincidence category.
(Political Vel Craft via Cryptogon)​
*DISCLAIMER:* _I've never heard of "Political Vel Craft" and cannot attest to the accuracy or kookiness of same!_


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Macfury said:


> Everything should be investigated, but if someone begins with the premise that the local police department, the FBI and mainstream media were all in on this, nothing will satisfy them.


Good post. Give it time if your goal is understanding what happened.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)




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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Those are pretty shoddy production values for a meme. Put some work into it people!


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Macfury said:


> The absence of photos showing spent casings, doesn't mean there were no spent casings. Likewise. the idea of a second shooter inside the hotel should have resulted in another broken window, more casings and more powder.
> 
> Everything should be investigated, but if someone begins with the premise that the local police department, the FBI and mainstream media were all in on this, nothing will satisfy them. I tend to believe that no major conspiracy can survive with the large number of people who would have had to participate, and the nature of our blabbermouth culture.


:clap: Agreed.

This is not Sherlock Holmes stuff. The evidence is clear thus far, there may well be more to come but in the mean time maybe our thoughts and feelings go could out to the killed and injured and their family and friends.

I find the knee jerk reaction to go to legislation as the culprit deplorable. There is time for that, but now is not the time. This is a time for grieving, empathy, sympathy, compassion and for humanity.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> Might as well throw this into the mix as well.
> Las Vegas: Bellagio Hotel Guests And Staff Confirm Multiple Shooters
> 
> Also heard one witness report of shootings at the Cosmopolitan and possibly other hotels. If so I could not find any news reports, or they are being suppressed. Put a big  here, as this may simply be deliberate attempts to obscure what really happened.


This has absolutely nothing, zero, to do with the 32nd floor shooter. Please do not try to back up your statement with two different things. One one the first floor, the other on the 32nd.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

SINC said:


> *I didn't interpret pm-r's post to infer his wife was there, just that he mentioned his viewpoint to her in passing conversation at home.*
> 
> I also doubt any marksmanship was anticipated or attempted, given the glow of so many lights into a darkened crowd 32 stories below the shooter at a quarter mile range. It was more like spraying bullets in the general direction to see how many he could hit. Kind of like a shotgun fired just within range of a flock of ducks, some pellets might hit, most would not.
> 
> At least that would be my take on the shooter.


Yes I realized I misread that that and edited my post accordingly. My bad.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Beej said:


> Good post. Give it time if your goal is understanding what happened.


I agree as well.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

*Numbers*

Also just to mention the number of dead and injured do not indicate if it was the result of direct gunfire. Countless people around the world have been killed and injured just from a mass stampede of people fleeing from a dangerous situation. I think this needs to be kept in mind as well. Not necessarily were all the dead and injured shot directly to cause their injury or death, it could have been simply by by people trying to flee the chaos.

Just food for thought.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

screature said:


> :clap: Agreed.
> 
> This is not Sherlock Holmes stuff. The evidence is clear thus far, there may well be more to come but in the mean time maybe our thoughts and feelings could out to the killed and injured and their family and friends.
> 
> I find the knee jerk reaction to go to legislation as the culprit deplorable. There is time for that, but now is not the time. This is a time for grieving, empathy, sympathy, compassion and for humanity.


This is actually easily resolved. You have the official narrative, presented as fact long before any investigation had started. You have eyewitnesses claiming people were hit from the opposite direction of the Mandalay.

Simple enough to recover the bullets from the corpses and the wounded. Just match or fail to match ballistics to the firearms in the Hotel room. Seems to me that nearly 60 bodies and 500 wounded deserve at least that much attention to detail. One way or the other we know the answer.

If we see a 9/11 repeat and the evidence is destroyed rather than catalogued and analyzed that would be ample evidence that the official narrative is BS.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

eMacMan said:


> This is actually easily resolved. You have the official narrative, presented as fact long before any investigation had started. You have eyewitnesses claiming people were hit from the opposite direction of the Mandalay.
> 
> Simple enough to recover the bullets from the corpses and the wounded. Just match or fail to match ballistics to the firearms in the Hotel room. Seems to me that nearly 60 bodies and 500 wounded deserve at least that much attention to detail. One way or the other we know the answer.
> 
> If we see a 9/11 repeat and the evidence is destroyed rather than catalogued and analyzed that would be ample evidence that the official narrative is BS.


See above... "Numbers".


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## smashedbanana (Sep 23, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> This is actually easily resolved. You have the official narrative, presented as fact long before any investigation had started. You have eyewitnesses claiming people were hit from the opposite direction of the Mandalay.
> 
> Simple enough to recover the bullets from the corpses and the wounded. Just match or fail to match ballistics to the firearms in the Hotel room. Seems to me that nearly 60 bodies and 500 wounded deserve at least that much attention to detail. One way or the other we know the answer.
> 
> If we see a 9/11 repeat and the evidence is destroyed rather than catalogued and analyzed that would be ample evidence that the official narrative is BS.


Ack I have a problem with this post ^

First there is no narrative. There are things that are learned and they are getting shared with us as they go. They've been very good at that. Not perfect, but at least we live in a place where we are not ushered completely from the process like China or Russia. 

There are people who saw things, but it's hard to call them eye witnesses. Even if you were staring from the ground at the 32nd floor how good would your vantage really be? 

There are no corpses. There are bodies of victims of many people's loved ones. It's important to keep that in mind. Not because I think you don't care, but rather that is how all the investigating officers have to view them and interact with the families. It's a bit rough going to someone and asking to remove a bullet from their loved ones body because you need to match it to a rifle you already have from a dead guy. And let's be practical. What does that do? Even if you can do it will there be anything to match? What's the speed of a 556 from 32 floors up travelling downwards? It's going to be a super mangled bullet. Maybe you can match metallurgical at best.

9/11 and this are Apples and Oranges.

I personally believe crazy people on the internet should at least wait till the blood is cleaned up before second guessing the hard working people that have a horrible job investigating this...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Another indicator missed?

Las Vegas shooter reportedly used hotel freight elevator as high-rolling perk | Fox News


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

SINC said:


> Another indicator missed?
> 
> Las Vegas shooter reportedly used hotel freight elevator as high-rolling perk | Fox News


Hmm if you can get 27 guns up a freight elevator and thereby dodge all the security measures, could you not also get an extra shooter or three to the room in the same manner? Especially if they were dressed as hotel security guards. 

Also we now have a third exit from the Hotel room. This was an emergency exit which the shooter(s) are claimed to have secured. That of course leaves the main door to the suite, plus the door to the adjoining suite to make way for other shooters to come and more importantly go as they pleased.

And of course the revised timeline 78 minutes from the time when the security guard was shot through the door until the police did something about it. WTF????

Normally I don't consider anonymous a good resource but some very valid questions that deserve honest answers.
10 Things That Just Don't Add Up About the Las Vegas Mass Shooting – Anonymous
EDIT: The powers that be were obviously terrified that anyone would view that link. The fact that it was disabled should tell you that the official narrative is complete BS.
Revised link here:
10 Things That Just Don’t Add Up About the Las Vegas Mass Shooting | Humans Are Free

Finally about the BS that hollow point bullets can't yield solid forensic info. First if they were .223s they were about spent on impact. More importantly you may not always get sufficient ballistic info to match to a particular rifle, but you can certainly ascertain the caliber often enough to confirm or repudiate the the official narrative. If you want to show respect to victims and their families, forget the euphemisms and do the basic legwork that a crime of this magnitude deserves. Above all don't destroy the evidence!


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow. According to the new improved time line, Paddock was firing out the window and through the door at the same time. Incredibly impressive as those special stocks which convert a semi-auto to an automatic have to be held tight to the shoulder. Two hundred rounds through a door while simultaneously firing down on the crowd, with weapons that need to be held snug to the shoulder.

The lamestream version has now gone way beyond unbelievable.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Things just keep getting more strange.

Jesus Campos, Vegas security guard shot before rampage, appears to have vanished - LA Times


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## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

And, an interesting update.

ABCNews: Computer Found In Steven Paddock's Room, Where Only One Dead Human Being Was Present, Is Missing Its Hard Drive



> The obvious explanation is that there was a second person in the room who left after Paddock killed himself _or_ who killed Paddock himself, and then fled.


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