# To the polls, to the polls!



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Star Election Page 

Well this should be very interesting.








Let the games begin.
And a Toronto Mayoralty race in the mix too.  

I'm not sure that Ontario will be better off after this election but it's likely to be different.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

At least in Canada we only have to put up with the electioneering for 4 weeks.







My prediction is the McGuinty will get in with a slim overall majority unless he drops the ball yet again. The Federal Liberals will be watching closely. I don't think the PCs will be decimated though. Eves is proposing mortgage tax relief (a first apparently in Canada in a clear ploy to attract home-owners).


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Interesting, in that there is soon to be a call for an election here in NL, in which the ruling Liberals are thought to be on their way out, to be replaced by the PCs.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Hmm.... maybe Ernie will run in NL? I wouldn't wish than on you guys though. What goes around, comes around.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

I am forced to take a page from macnutt's weirdly wired wisdom .... but the stark reality here in ON is that the big switch between Ernie and Dalt would merely consist of business as usual moving across Bay Street from one law firm to another. It's a matter of which gets paid to "write" the boiler plate legislation and which party gets to "customize" it.

The Davis tories are vomiting on empty already over Ernie's hopeless vanity and the ON Liberals are still unforgiven for trotting out their Norman Bates look-a-like in Dalt. Gerard Kennedy could have wiped Ernie's sandblasted face off the map. He waits in the wings, a serious contender.

I so do not ... maybe predict







a 55-65% phyrric victory for Ernie with a Davis type cabinet. Dalt will get more cozy with teachers and minimum wage earners. Howie will do much better and ride Ernie's ass on energy, hardware and commonwealth.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I can't see Ernie hanging on the numbers are so far against him 19% behind in the polls for the party support but then McGuinty seems to be a "for lack of anything better" choice









My only comment today was that McGuinty seems to be making some sense about his approach. No diatribes or "I will fix the world" approaches, just repeating what Ontarians have been telling ALL the parties. Fix teh infrastructure and to hellwith tax cuts.

I don't think the pork barrelling will fly Ontarians know there is no free lunch and stuff like mortgage tax breaks whn the pporpery market is hotter than Hades is just plain stupid and a transparent grab for votes.

The Tories can't pay for their current promises, it's just that the Liberals are so lackluster. But for sure there is an anything but Tory vote out there and NDPers are going to take the brunt of that as Labour has said vote the PCs out.

I'd say a Liberal minority with an NDP balance of power might make for an interesting few years while King....no Emperor Martin rejigs his dominion and makes the world watch in awe.
Mayhap Quebec will power Canada for a while - literally and figuratively while Ontario does some rebuilding.
We'll see in a month. 

used to be - it is indeed Mcguinty's to lose - and from today's quiet comments his handlers are holding a tight rein.







another lawyer in power....sigh


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

MacDoc,

Exactement mon ami! ..... I'm not happy with my occult powers as expressed above but will leave my chips in place.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

As a 'right-wing conservative', Ernie Eves has been a miserable failure. No other way to put it.









And, from my standpoint wayyy out here I can't possibly see a clear winner. At least this early in the game.

But I bet that whoever does win...liberal or conservative... will, eventually, arrive at the very same sort of policies that other recently elected governments have adopted. No matter what the name says on the door. 









And...yes...a minority liberal coalition government in concert with the NDP (as unlikely as that seems right now) WOULD prove to be an "interesting few years" indeed! (boy howdy!)

In fact, it would probably be such an unmitigated disaster that it would drive the final nail into the coffin for our far left national party. They'd be doomed in the next federal election.....whenever that might be. 









Probably not very good for federal liberal fortunes in the long run, either. 

Hmmm....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

jwoodget, I don't think that EE would do well here in NL. At this point, it seems to be a PC victory unless they "blow it", as they seem to be doing as each major blunder by the Liberals is either overlooked or responded to in a confusing manner.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ontario nearly always goes contra the Feds so with Martin on the right side of the Liberal corners expect Ontario to move to the other corner.
See Toronto is the big gorillia in this and Layton is a well respected in Toronto and championing the cities.
It happend in the US and the cities got the power they need to tax and run their own affairs, hasn't happened here.
I mean PEI is province and Toronto can't run it's own taxes.......reallllllly








The point being that with the NDP dropping labour and supporting cities plus their usual green slant they have a pretty good draw.
There are mnay like you Macnutt disaffected by the Libs and absolutely horrified by the right as represented by the Alliance.
Layton is good. He won't have an impact this time round but if there is a minority in Ontario it's fertile ground for Layton.
I think Martin will also listen to Layton as he knows the cities, Toronto in particular needs fixing.
The Bloc is toast, the right is still split and has no leadership.
Layton and Martin should play well across from each other. Layton is a very persuasive speaker and Macnutt give the guy credit he dropped labour.

But once again you doom and gloom without offering solutions.

Boom times are over for a while. Ontario wants its safety net repaired. Start stitchin' or look for a day job is the general message to MPPs here.

The wild card is the same sex marriage - Wafflin' Ernie is trying to play all the angles. Interesting times indeed.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

It will be a difficult task for Eves to hold on to power -- especially if his best argument is that he's not McGuinty.

The reputation for good financial management Eves and the Tories built has always been a fair bit of smoke and mirrors. Bruce Little, the Globe's numbers genius, has an interesting take on the latest Fudgit Budget.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Macdoc...I'm not sure if I read your sentence right...the one where you mention me as "being disaffected" by the liberals and horrified by the right wing Alliance.

I am more than "disaffected" by the Federal liberals, trust me. And I am not at all horrified by the Alliance. Not one little bit. They seem to be the only party that makes any sense right now. Plus...they are committed to the sharing of power with the electorate through the tried and true system of an Elected, Equal, and Effective senate.

Then we'd have the beginnings of a true democracy. Which would be a first for this country.

What a concept.


As for Comrade Layton, I went and heard him speak while he was here on Salt Spring a couple of months ago. I was...like many others in the crowd...underwhelmed.

Yes he says he has abandoned Big labour...on paper. But he still spouts the same old tired ideology that has failed everywhere when he thinks he is playing to a leftist crowd. And he certainly sounds as though he is still a part of the big Union club. "Brothers and sisters, rise up and smite the evil powerbrokers ".....yadda, yadda, yadda...) Ho hum.

And several of the biggest Provinces have had a taste of NDP policies in the past few years because they elected them to run their Provincial Governments.

We all remeber how well _THAT_ turned out...now don't we?









Memories are not that short. Unions are not that all-powerful anymore...and lots of the highest paid Union types are pretty unsympathetic to mainline NDP policies because, as it turns out, they actually get HIT by all of the surtaxes and nonsense that this batch of unrepentant leftists impose upon the public in the name of 'equality and fairness'.

(that's why the highly-paid autoworkers in Oshawa voted to withold the NDP's regular cut of their union dues during the last months of Bob Rae's failed attempt at governing Ontario)

With or without Layton the NDP is a spent force, unable or unwilling to change with the times. 

If Ontario takes one last little fling with them in the coming election, then I wish all of you out there a great deal of luck.

You'll need it.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

One last thing macdoc...

You mention that the "boomtimes are over".

Probably true for Ontario. But things are pretty good out west. Alberta is doing just fine and BC is experiencing an unprecedented influx of investment...now that the NDP have left the scene

Go figure.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

We also won't mention that little old genteel Victoria now has the highest value real estate in the country... booming Vancouver is a close second. Most properties that aren't total wrecks are sold within a day or so of being listed. Some for quite a bit more than the asking price. (the really bad ones take a week or more to sell)

Seems like a whole boatload of people with big bags of cash are moving to this end of the country for some strange reason, now that the NDP are gone and things are getting better.

Funny about that, eh?   

And, yes, lumber is on the skids. Tough luck for the few that are still in that industry. Luckily our biggest cash crop is still going strong. 

Plus we have the best scenery, the cleanest air, the purest water and the very best weather in all of Canada

Also...we have a pretty solid tourism sector, much of it from Asia (no SARS)

Also...we have the second largest, and busiest, seaport on the west coast of the continent.

Also...we have one of the strongest hi-tech sectors on the continent. BIG time!

Also...we have a movie and Television industry that is second...and only just barely second... to Hollywood itself. It's HUGE!

Also...we have a new provincial government that is VERY business friendly, and extremely pragmatic. More so even than neighboring Alberta, if that's possible.

And no chance that the NDP will be coming back any time soon to spoil everyone's fun. None at all.

This all adds up to BOOM TIMES! We on a ROLL! the future looks so darned good out here, that everyone wants a piece of it.

That's why they're all moving here. In Droves.

BTW...the people who are moving here are NOT poor. Not at these prices. We're getting the best and brightest, and the richest, from practically every Province in Canada.

Check it out and see for yourself.


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

As a Red Tory, I'm very disappointed in the lack of leadership that Eves has shown. And I think that he has really pounded the pooch on the energy issue. Harris was dead wrong to try to privatize Hydro, and Eves was dead wrong to cap the rates.

If it was not for the recent blackout, Eves would have a very difficult job to catch up to the Liberals.

The Liberals are the Tories best friend in this election. The Libs have blown substantial leads in the polls in the past 3 elections, and I suspect that they will shoot themselves again. Even a Liberal buddy of mine does not think that Dalton is up to the job.

The NDP? Don't get me started. That pack of ideological wacco's could not organize a stag or a wake, let alone the province. And Bob Rae made sure that Labour was pissed off and alienated for the next 25 years.

Polls change overnight in this dank business. But I am putting the money on a minority government. Which means new leaders for the P.C.s and the Liberals by this time next year.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt - high real estate prices are a bubble not a boom.
Fresh clean air and water, magnificent scenery are WEALTH...funny I didn't think you realized that.

And an avalanche of rotted salmon upon your head for the SARs crack.......it could just as easily been Vancouver.  

Oh and here's the Tory record on your vaunted film industry

"In Alberta, Ralph Klein axed the Alberta Motion Picture Film Development Corp., the funding arm for Canadian productions.

In July 1995, the Conservative government in Ontario announced it was freezing film subsidies programs via the Ontario Film Development Corporation.

The Tories also cut $1.7 million from the OFDC's separate, $14 million a year, Ontario Film Investment Program that gives investors cash rebates of 13-18% of the amount they put into movies, tv series, and documentaries."

Perhaps the NDP were "film friendly ".

As to your BC statistics looks like they were wrong too.

From the 2003 CFTPA report

"Production declined in BC and the Prairies, and increased slightly elsewhere: Ontario was     up 1% with $2.1 billion; Quebec up 5% with $1.4 billion; Atlantic Canada up 3% with $183     million; BC down 7% with $1.1 billion; and the Prairies were down 4% with $286 million

The CFTPA ( Canadian Film and Television Production Associaton ) is a non-profit, trade association representing almost 400 companies involved in the Canadian production industry. The association promotes the general interests of Canadian producers by lobbying government on policy matters, negotiating labour agreements, offering mentorship programs and copyright initiatives. "

Ontario has twice the film industry size and BCs was down - hardly a boom  

Besides you know very well that much of the success of the film industry in Canada is directly due to government nuturing at a number of levels.

Vancouver has always been a popular immigration target as is Toronto and certainly the huge influx from Asia has nothing to do with the change of government as it happened in the 90s and earlier.
Toronto gets 3 x Vancouver's immigrants - and I assure you Toronto is not booming right now

And these synopsis hardly show BC is either - and that's out migration to other provinces UP!! This from BC Credit Unions financial synopsis reports..nd don't point to housing starts - they are hot here too, the only categoryand it's because of low interest rates NOT a boom.

"July 04 2003

June housing sales hit year-to-date high; Out-migration to other provinces up in first quarter; B.C.'s population growth slows

June 27 2003

Retail sales down in Vancouver; BC immigration drops in the first quarter; Small business confidence falls in BC; Canada's economy contracts; Stage set for Bank of Canada rate cut"

Hardly sounds like what you described - sounds more like the rest of Canada, no boom, tricky business conditions but better than anywhere else in the G8   

THAT's reality


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Britnell I agree with your assessment of the situation and Dalton and maybe an Ontario leader will come up out of the weeds during a minority rule.
Pissing off Labour was a good thing - the NDP have always been Canada's concience and I think Layton has nailed the issue in championing cities.

Who I'd love to see right now is an older and now wiser David Peterson or the likes of Bill Davis at the helm. Calm, avuncular, biz friendly but especially Davis had some vision of the province as a whole and wasn't afraid to spend to support infrastructure.
McGuinty will be a terrific leader for Ontario.

Toronto needs leadership, the province needs leadership....sad times for Ontario  

How about Hurricane Hazel for supreme leader of Ontario ( the best Mayor ever and one reason I'm happy to live in Mississauga )

Mayor Hazel - a good tale 

Somebody else feels the same 

""She respects those who stand up and fight for the things they believe in." 

She's also outlasted six premiers and six prime ministers, so why couldn't she do for the province or the country what she's done in the sixth largest city in Canada -- run a debt-free community that's a text-book model for sustained growth. "

[ February 09, 2004, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: MacDoc ]


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Layers and layers of Brilliantine and Oil of Olay seem to have seeped into Ernie's vain brain. He has suddenly endorsed *publicly funded executions!* ... against all macnuttian "profits reduce costs" economic principles.







.... and to appease the social basket cases on the rabid right? We wonder who has them sewn up around here. 
You'd think that a privatized ..... "McHydro here ..... How may we shock you?"










I recall my surprise with Davis steering his ship well to the social left of centre given the times. Key people on board jumped ship and a period of relative social stability ensued.
I wonder if there is new generation of Davisites on the horizon.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

The only thing booming now is China. As long as their Yuan is tied to the U$, our trinkets are cheap as is brag therapy. 

(We'll say nothing of BC lumber or AB cattle)


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"I recall my surprise with Davis steering his ship well to the social left of centre given the times. "

Machiavelli student likely - to exercise power you have to BE in power. Davis was a smart politician.

Now David Peterson on the other hand took his support for granted, called a completely unnecessary election and got slammed big time for it....not a smart politician then, certainly a wiser person now.
Course you could take a conspiracy view and say that the Libs threw the election so Bob Rae would be the fall guy on the tough cuts








Remember Rae Days.  Who would have believed it would be the NDP wielding the axe.

But then look at the PCs pork barrel right now. Ah necessity.......

I must admit I'm warming to the Lib platform if not Dalton himself. Anyone a Hampton advocate here? - I'd be willing to listen to an opinion


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

If Ernie is looking for a return to the death penalty, it would be wise for him to suggest lethal injection rather than the electric chair, given the questionable future of electrical power in Ontario.

Minor facetiousness aside, does any one else find it interesting that Eves is moving to the right on social issues?

That's something Harris studiously avoided, preferring to limit his meddling to right wing fiscal policies. The sense among pundits then was that tampering with social policies was a no-win situation, upsetting Red Tories could cost the party its majority. Remember they won the last election with the support of only 28 per cent of eligible voters.

It mades me think that Eves is concerned about the commitment of Tory supporters and is trying to solidify the core right wing vote, as his social policy leanings are highly unlikely to appeal to many NDP or Liberal supporters.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

"It mades me think that Eves is concerned about the commitment of Tory supporters and is trying to solidify the core right wing vote, as his social policy leanings are highly unlikely to appeal to many NDP or Liberal supporters."

That may also be behind his flip flop on the gay marriage issue as it would solidy his right wing supporters and MIGHT pull from the older voters in the other camp who might do a single issue switch ( as the polls on the subject show).
I mean he's in a no win on the social policies and infrastructure so falling back on "party central" is likely the lowest risk approach within a very dismal range of options.
19% BEHIND the Liberals who have weak leader is just about terminal.









I really think the marriage thing is a true wild card here. I'm not happy that it is but I just have a feeling that it will produce some odd results in the voting patterns.
I hope I'm wrong.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Make that less than two per cent according to the latest poll. 

I expected the margin to shrink significantly, but certainly not this quickly.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah "we gots ourselves a horse race here" and it appears to be neck and neck.
The Star had several good articles this morning but this got a laugh from me. 










Rising Tories catch Liberals 

and I thought this was good
Martin could soon be following the Eves bike path 

Ontarians are contrarians


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Could somebody fix macnutts inability to post a URL? It's getting to the point that I think its just an excuse to spout off with no facts to back up the rhetoric. Thanks.

BC is a beautiful province to visit (I really like the confluence of mountains and sea).

Ontario's politics are awful. We do deserve better. As does Toronto (where Mel has spawned an awful series of successors - with perhaps one exception). It's almost as if the city has infected the Province and the country with incompetent, dull non-visionaries who are only interested in parochialism. Maybe it's a new virus? Sardonic Assinine Rhetorical Stupidity virus?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

seconded, thirded, whatever


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

When he's had enough brag therapy for a while, macnutt macbolts. Sometimes his posts are like biker noise ..... like .... oh yeah .... like loud eh? .... what's the point? 
He's sincere about the biking though. 

I hope that at least that the election results will put the brakes on the sputtering neo-con-spiracy. 
Harris saw the wreck and macbolted like macnutt on his bike.








Ernie's needs are simple; parading in his bespoke threads and hearing his own voice .... and his girlfried's purse.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

No time for a really long rant here...my balky rural dialup is disconnecting me every seven minutes or so.

Possibly this has something to do with the inability to post a successful URL? (it drives me crazy)

Macdoc...I'm certain that your figures are correct for _Canadian_ film productions...the ones that are so awful that they need a serious legup from the government...but no one in the movie/TV biz (and there are LOTS of them out here) seems to think that Ontario has even a tenth of the _Hollywood_-based productions that BC has. We are only just in second place behind Hollywood itself, and MOST of the TV movies are made out here. An astounding number of mainstream Hollywood TV series are shot here in BC. as well. It is a HUGE industry.

Think BC is not in the early days of a major boom? Drop by and see for yourself. Everybody who has serious cash is moving out here to get in on the ground floor. Ontario plates (on Lexus's and Beemers) are everywhere.

Check it out for yourself.

You WILL be surprised. Promise.

(BTW...it's expensive out here on the best coast. The houses cost a LOT more than they do in central Canada, for example. Remember that BC stands for "Bring Cash")


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt you are so far wrong it hurts. Do you really think there are 3 billion dollars of CANADIAN only productions......  
Vancouver might be a popular city to film because it's pretty but Ontario's movie and TV biz is twice the size and even combined with BCs they only represent about 12-13% of the biz in Hollywood. 

And the business is only the size it is because of strong government support at many levels.









Your list of unanswered questions remain

1> why the Republicans presided over the Depression and crash years if their policies are so good

2. What Prime Minister MacNutt would do in Healthcare in Canada...bearing in mind that 90% of Canadians expect and want universality.

There ARE treatments for stuck hairballs.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'll see if I can spare the time (multiple disconnects notwithstanding) to look up exactly how much film and TV work BC is actually responsible for these days. 

I KNOW it's big. One of the reasons that I know this is because there have been large public protests in Hollywood about how much of "their" industry is being siphoned off to BC.

They didn't even mention Ontario.









The only real advantage out here is a large pool of well-trained talent, unions that are relatively "tame" by Hollywood Teamster standards, and a low dollar.

Oh...and by the way...we have a large city that can become "any city in the world" for a major movie production. And some of the best scenery in the world as a backdrop for filming. And no real winter to curtail the shooting season.

It also helps that we are only two hours by jet from Hollywood.  


As for your questions about what "Prime Minister MacNutt" would do about the looming health care crisis...

See the "Hiroshima and Nagaski" thread. It has been effectively hijacked and flown to Ottawa for dissection.

Meanwhile, I'll try to get the final word on the movie and TV biz from some of my neighbors. Many of them are people you have seen on the big screen. Many more are the people responsible for actually making the movies and TV series that are seen all over the world.

There are LOTS of them here.

They live here because...as they say...it's close to "Hollywood North".

But then, you knew that already.....didn't you?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Funny this article exactly on topic mentions, Canada, Toronto, even Sask...not a peep about BC.







but that's just a tease
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/amityshlaes/as20010315.shtml 

Now to put this to rest
In 2002 BC made 23 Feature movies according to Reelwest Magazine.

Toronto had 42 Feature films.
Those numbers jive well with about 2 billion in Ontario and 1 billion in the west.

Now the overall production of film and TV series in the west is pretty impressive 
http://www.reelwest.com/magazine/archives/vol18_1/2002_wrap.htm

BUT the Toronto list ALONE runs to 33 pages - approximately 9 productions per page.  

http://www.toronto.ca/tfto/2003todate.htm#years

Now this is not to diss Vancouver and BC in any way - the West has a strong and vibrant film and television industry but Toronto is the 900 lb gorrilla to Hollywood's King Kong.

That said - approax 25% of Hollywoods feature films were shot in Canada ...now that is very very cool

One link lists top grossing movies filmed in Toronto - there are 46 movies that grossed over 25 million with 6 grossing over 100 million. This was just to show that Toronto is not a low budget/low grossing movie factory.

Given your population, BC is doing very well. Happy now.









[ September 06, 2003, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: macdoc ]


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Okay...I did a little surfing (with lots of disconnects that really ate up the latter half of an already busy day).

AND I phoned up a couple of my neighbors. (you know...the one's who are a big part of the Hollywood machine). I asked them if they thought that Ontarios film industry was a serious contender for the term "Hollywood North"?

Once the laughter died down, they gave me a few websites to pass on to you "center of the universe" types. Some of the figures are quite illuminating.

Firstly, of the three billion spent annually on film productions in Canada...two billion is spent here in BC.

The rest is shared among all of the other Provinces.

Ontario has VERY advantageous tax credits and even outright subsidies to attract productions to that area. This results in rather more actual projects than many of us realise. Most are...shall we say...less than memorable. And very few are truly big-budget "Hollywood" productions.

See for yourself (hope this link works)
web page Ontario Film Comission 

In it, they list such noteable and unforgettable major hits as

-"Daydream Believer:The Monkees story"

-"Her Desperate Choice"

-"Elvis Meets Nixon"

-"The Unicorn's Secret"































On the other hand, Vancouver is hoime to the THIRD LARGEST movie industry in North America, after Los Angeles and New York.

This year there are more than 200 productions being shot out here. Fifty six odd major movies by Hollywood studios, dozens and dozens of TV series, as well. Compare that with about twelve or so Hollywood films being shot in Ont. and about a further twenty-five no namers that will go straight to video


In BC we have "Lion's Gate studios"

"Vancouver Film Studios"

and "Bridge Studios" which is home to the second largest special effects studio in North America.

We also have the most extensive set of post production facilities after Los Angeles. This is where almost EVERY movie comes for the finishing processes.

One of my neighbors..who is in movie production...asked me to inform my friend from Ontario that "Even when exteriors are shot in Ontario, we move to Vancouver for post and ALL of the effects are done out here."

Here is another link: web page Hollywood North 

And one more: web page Vancouver Film Studios 

Hope this helps to clear up the confusion.  

[ September 06, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Um where aside from a single studios GUESS did you come up with your numbers.

This is from YOUR link

"In 2001, 197 productions were shot in the province in 2001, according to numbers compiled by the British Columbia Film Commission. Of that number, 113 were Canadian productions, worth $251.6 million; and 84 were foreign productions, worth $856.8 million."

Now that sounds like about 1 billion in 2001 and likely increased to the 1.2 billion in 2002 given that from the same source
"The industry has grown at an annual rate of 21 percent over the past 10 years "

1 billion in 2001 + 20% = 1.2 billion - exactly what the actual numbers are.

The other link is a promo piece for a studio - hardly accurate numbers - it's a guess









There were 1211 productions in Toronto in the year 2000 versus from your link

"In 2000,192 film and television productions were shot in BC. These included 56 feature films, 48 movies-of-the-week/pilots/mini-series, 36 TV series, 10 animation projects, and 42 documentaries/broadcast singles. "

and that agrees nicely with

"The millennium year was good to the film industry, with British Columbia welcoming more features, television movies and series than ever before, the BC Film Commission estimates that the final count will exceed 160 productions. Alberta, Saskatewan and Manitoba all managed to bring in both indigenous and service productions in 2000. The following is a breakdown of a great year in the film and television industry."

Macnutt Toronto alone - not Ontario - just Toronto had over 1200 productions in the year 2000.

BC does very well per capita but it's just not in the same league.

Now your ONLY 2 billion number comes from a corporate promo sheet for a single studio, NOT from any of the actual industry stat sheets which are ALL in remarkable agreement.

The largest film studio in the WORLD is due to be open in Quebec shortly
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1829352.stm

Take the compliment for what's worth - BC does very well for it's population but it's NOT third after New York and Hollywood.

"American producers in particular are attracted to Toronto because of the city's pool of top-quality creative and technical talent, excellent production facilities and lower costs. The favourable exchange rate on the Canadian dollar means producers can buy more and do more in Toronto. The overall result is that Toronto is now ranked by most Hollywood producers as the equal of Los Angeles and New York City.

Toronto is the third-largest film and television production centre in North America and the second-largest exporter of television programming. "

C'mon Macnutt BC has just about 4 million for the entire provincial population while the GTA alone is 5 million +.

BC does VERY well - it's simply not in the LA NY Toronto heavyweight wrestling match.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Macdoc said "C'mon macnutt, BC has only four million versus the five million in the GTA alone".

And this is the crux of his argument. This is what he trots out as a final word as to why he thinks that the biggest film industry in Canada is in Ontario.

Too funny. And a bit sad at the same time.









Okay macdoc. One more shot at wasting precious time trying to convince the unconviceable about yet another of life's little realities. (always fun dealing with the 'open-minded liberal' types around here).

Here goes:

There are more major TV series (not TelefilmCanada funded dreck) being shot here in BC at any given time than anywhere else in North America. More than in New York, occaisionally more than in Los Angeles. 

Ontario's share of major TV series is miniscule. And most that are shot there are transferred to vancouver for post. Just the way it is, sorry.

Most of the TV movie Biz is in Vancouver. Period. More than in Los Angeles. Ontario is not even on the same page. (What little they have is often funded by the CBC and is watched by twenty or so people who have no other choice).

Most of the pilots for major American TV shows are shot in BC. Even if the actual production shifts to LA after it is picked up by a major network. Even then, post and special effects are done here in BC once the series is in full production. It's noteably cheaper, and we have extensive facilities. Plus we are only a short plane flight away from the center of the movie world.

Miniseries are usually shot in Vancouver or the surrounding area. Exteriors are sometimes done in other parts of Canada...especially if they want a "winter scene"...but all of the post and effects are done right here on the second biggest special effects stage in N. America. (soon to be the VERY biggest, according to my well-informed neighbors).

LA is too expensive for most of this stuff, and...again...it is only a short hop to Los Angeles (and in the same time zone) for the principal actors. It's a no-brainer, really.

Major Hollywood movies? The REALLY BIG stuff?

In the year 2000, British Columbia had 56 productions on the go. Almost the same as Los Angeles that year. 

That same year we hosted 36 Major TV series.

And 48 "Movies of the week". 

And Ten major animation projects. (there were almost 45 documentaries going on as well).

And MOST of the major Hollywood productions...TV and film...sent some work up here to BC for post production or effects. (That little factoid doesn't show up on the lists that each Province crows about to claim how well they are doing in the movie Biz, I'll wager.)









BC is FIRST in most TV production. Bigger than LA in many cases. Certainly bigger than New York, and worlds beyond Toronto. Even when you try to skew the numbers by adding in all of the unwatchable dreck that is sponsored by our tax dollar handouts. End of story.

BC is only second to LA in major movies...and only just. Most of the movies shot pretty much anywhere show up in our production facilities for the final polish. Just the way it is. Sorry.

And...according to many of the movie types that I have talked to...we are poised to become even BIGGER than Los Angeles in the near future. Even if the dollar was at par, there is such a talent pool of people out here (who are very experienced at making fantasies into reality) that we are set to become the dominant place for making movies and TV shows in North America.

And THAT"S why I keep rubbing elbows at the grocery store with people like Patrick Stewart (Star Trek), Barbara Streisand, Madonna, Sharon Stone, Robin Williams, Al Pacino, Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell, John Travolta, Jennifer Lopez, Ben Affleck, etc.

Not to mention the legions of behind the scenes producers, et al, who inhabit this place. TONS of em!

But I guess that could all be a fluke, right? They're just out here while shooting all of their projects in _Ontario_...right? They just bought land here because it's right next door to central Canada...right?

Or...do you suppose...they honestly want some nice little spot to relax in after a day of shooting in a nearby locale? And they figure that a great deal of their future work will be spent in this area?

NAWWWWW.

They just couldn't read a map.























Here are a few more links to chew on. web page BC Film Projects 

web page Film BC

web page BC film Industry 

web page BC film Report 

Finally...if you are still in doubt...then I invite you to actually drop by and see for yourself. Any time of the year. I can introduce you to all sorts of movie people who will clarify this question for you...once and for all.

Just be sure to bring an open mind. Pre-concieved ideas will just cloud the reality and prevent you from seeing what is really going on.
















Trust me on this.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Macnutt said:


> Also...we have a movie and Television industry that is second...and only just barely second... to Hollywood itself. It's HUGE!


Then Macnutt said: 


> On the other hand, Vancouver is hoime to the THIRD LARGEST movie industry in North America, after Los Angeles and New York.


At least he's moving in the right direction.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

So sorry about macnutt's wasted afternoon .... he ended up with info from three years ago and two PR pamphlets. The neighbourly film types might have been trying to lose him.  ... "you know...the one's who are a big part of the Hollywood machine" ... " 'jes fill the g*d*mn hot tub!"








(sorry ...  forgive me macnutt ... that was a cheap shot ... but it was too entertaining to pass up with the electioneering here being such a huge snorefest.  

Film biz goes up and down like a yoyo ..... when it rains it pours. I got very lucky with two big scores this summer. Some PA's and set grunts are doing 23/7 for three weeks and then ...nada! For the most part ON and BC are used for projects that don't enjoy budgets as do those that go to LA and London. The money is wisely used in Canada because so much has been wasted by the big boys on parties and PR at the expense of the investors.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt you can blather all you want but the industry statistics - even from your own ReelWest simply prove you wrong.
In the last six months due in large part to SARs Toronto has hurt for new projects big time and some have moved west.
Where the hot growth is, is in Montreal and Quebec where they've gone from nothing to third in Canada with a bullet and the world's largest studio facility is being built.

I only point out the population differences because you are dealing with the resources of mega-cities versus a smaller centre like Vancouver.
ALL the runaway production world wide represents about 1/4 of what LA produces - Number ONE is still numero uno in a big way tho it's certainly being challenged by Canada and Australia.

Last time I checked as well BC was running a deficit - not a lot of flexible money BUT BCs wealth of scenary and talented people let it play much larger than it's resources would indicate.

GDP California 1.3 Trillion, New York 800 Billion, Ontario 350 billion ( 1/2 of Canada ) Australia 350 billion, BC 60 billion.
US dollars BTW

Total Film and TV production in 2001 was 5 billion ( Cdn ) of which 1 billion went to BC and that went up about 20% in 2002 and is likely down a bit for 2003 despite getting some from Toronto. The math is kind of easy.

For the BC film industry to rank where it does both in Canada and in the world with it's relatively small economic base is remarkable.....take it for what it IS, not what it ISN'T.
•••••

Now can we get back to the Ontario election which is looking to be very interesting over the next few weeks.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ummm is this turning into a big yawn.???
I can't get a feel for it.

I must admit hearing John Tory blather on about how unsafe the streets are in the Toronto Mayor campaign got me steamed.
As one of the other candidates said to a GREAT DEAL of applause Leadership does not consist of scaring people.

The Mayor's race seems full of mediocrity which does not bode well for Toronto in the upcoming negotiations with the Province and the Feds.

The provincial situation is very uncertain 14% undecided altho my gut feel this may end up a "vote em out" anti-Tory campaign as the only ones that APPEAR hot over it are the Unions and Teachers.

The Tories may get slapped for the election promises - funny the Libs are campaigning on responsible finance while the Tories on potential deficit turf...count me  

Then there's also a bit of this too.......fall shock.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

With regards to your previous post, macdoc.

I found it somewhat condecending and dismissive. Too bad you are unable to see what is right before your eyes, due to preconcieved and long-held notions.

And...again...I invite you to venture away from your favored city. Drop by the fastest growing part of this nation and see for yourself what is happening...and why. (And ask yourself what sort of "immigrants" are able to pay half a million dollars for a smallish single family dwelling. One that has only been on the market for a day or so.)

Come out here and you might just find that your "center" is rapidly becoming the 'edge'. Of pretty much everything.








 

Check it out... and see for yourself.


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

Hollywood, bollywood. Who cares about "big Hollywood" products anyway?.

Lets face it, Flashy expensive movies like Triple X or Jeepers Creepers or whatever the latest is are not always interesting stories and they certainly don't contribute to a Canadian identity or to a Canadian culture. It does not matter if it was shot in LA, BC, the GTA or Papa, it is still an American "art" form.

Can you tell that I've just come back from the TIFF?


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Britnell .... amen .... as said Noel Coward, "We in Hollywood may make ****, ....... but it is perfect ****!"


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Britnell - hear, hear our downtown staff member is taking two weeks off to immerse himself in the TIFF which he has traditionally done for years.
It's pleasure to see how it has grown.
In doing the research to correct Macnutt's BCentricity I did notice how many Canadian productions were in the Toronto area - over half the 1300 productions in 2001 were Canadian tho' I'm not 100% sure how that is defined. Canadian culture protection is the reason the industry is so strong now as it set the stage for attracting "runaways" from Hollywood and elsewhere.

Now Bollywood is a different matter, several clients are involved in Indain/Canadian film productions and I think it's very neat to have another culture tht has similarities ( former Birt colony) yet also wide differences.
Personally I love musicals and "entertainment" int he Chicago and Moulin Rouge style and Bollywood thrives on those.
•••
Macnutt if my pointing out statistics that are freely available even in your own province is a problem for you then there's nothing I can do about that.
Given the size of the economies it's competing against BC has done terrifically well but no that's not good enough.








Perhaps perspective is in order.
Vancouver has 500,000 population a large SUBURB of Toronto has 800,000.
The entire BC population is LESS than the GTA population.
As you like to say ...THAT's reality.

•••••

The negative ads that Eves is using is really getting to be irritating and there was an interesting note on CBC yesterday that showed the Ontario economic years where the PCs had a surplus are available on-line- the several years where they didn't are not.

He also pointed out that Ontario ended the 8 years deeper in debt that at the start but with less infrastructre.

I might vote Hampton just out of frustration. At least then Jack Layton would have a voice and Toronto needs some work bigtime.
















[ September 11, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: macdoc ]


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Macdoc...

According to statscan, you're numbers are way off. Metro Toronto has five million people, metro Vancouver has just over two million.

Here's the link:  StatsCan web page 

And population size has nothing to do with our fast growing movie industry. It's because we have the locations that Hollywood wants, and a big pool of talent. We are also in the same time zone as Los Angeles.

Now, back to your election.

Good luck with that. It doesn't seem to be an easy choice. No real stars...and it would seem that this is going to be, yet again, another example of "voting against' rather than "voting for" a new leader.

Again....good luck.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yep that's 1/2 of all BC - must be a BIG GTA. Doesn't change the GDP.
anyway Toronto is falling apart so Montreal and Vancouver are getting more deals. WE NEED A GOOD MAYOR  

Perfect cartoon today 









I think there is more warm feeling toward McGunity after Eves Kitten eating reptile blunder.

[ September 15, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: macdoc ]


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

Evil Reptillian Kitten Eater.

I could see how someone would circulate that as a joke internally, but to send it out?

and for Eves to some how make it part of the campaign is damn arrogent. He should have said that it was an internal prank, not ment for release, and that he would fire whomever was responsible for sending it out, and said "sorry" to McG.

I admit to being a Tory, but I am NOT impressed with this campaign.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Today's Globe & Mail confirms my suspicions that with this swing to the right the Tories are trying to shore up their core vote to prevent a collapse.

Here in Nipissing, Mike Harris's former riding (which also includes a significant chunk of Ernie Eves' old riding) the Tories are in definite trouble. It's suppose to be a bellweather riding but there's a definite trend away from a well-respected and liked businessman to the Liberals. Al McDonald certainly made a positive mark in his year as MPP and Harris successor, but he's having a lot of trouble holding the fort, Tory since about 1980.

If McGuinty and the Liberals can avoid stepping in the cow patties Eves and the Tories have shown themselves so adept at, especially in the coming leaders debate, they should start to walk away with it soon.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Tories' slagging tactics backfiring?. 
Or is it the sum of Tory failures concerning water, food, energy, health, old age security and **budget?









My prediction of a weak Tory majority falters .... as long as the Harrisite strategists keep up their self evisceration.

'_Ontario's Liberals have taken a commanding lead in the election campaign, exploiting a desire for change among voters and a failure of the Conservatives' negative tactics, according to a new poll.
In addition to the strong desire for change, the Liberal support has been pushed upward by events such as last week's Tory attack on the Liberal Leader as an "evil, reptilian kitten-eater from another planet and the approval given Liberal financial plans last week by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation."_ 

**The Canadian Association for the Fifty Plus called Ernie's phony budget an "insult to the intelligence and well being of most Ontario seniors".


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Just when you thought Ernie couldn't fit another foot in his mouth, read the following NATIONAL POST article 

Yes you read correctly. The NATIONAL POST.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

In PEI, according to a CBC report this mourning, the politicians do not know conduct their debates.

During the first debate of the election campaign it was reported the leaders were polite, civil and to the point.

What’s up with these PE Islander politicians?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

This is why we all love Mayor Hazel here in prosperous debt free Mississauga.

"Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion says voters have no interest in tax cuts.

In an interview yesterday, McCallion, a long-time Conservative, said voters she has talked to are far more eager to see public services maintained than they are to have taxes reduced.

"I can assure you they are not interested in tax cuts," the long-time mayor said, referring to the central plank in the Conservatives' election platform.

"That's one thing they voice. They say: Look, when you have to go to the United States to get an MRI because you can't get it here; or you have to wait six months for surgery at a hospital — I'm telling you, they don't want to see any tax cuts. They want the service."

"That's the message I'm getting as I go around.""....more

McCallion rejects Tory tax-cut plan 

and Hazel's......yep....a long time Conservative  
Now that's gotta hurt - a clear tongue lashing from a very popular GTA figure who is also a party stalwart........except when the party is wrong.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

A little off topic.... I got a call from the "IT guy" for the Ernie Eves tour bus. They have an 802.11b network on the bus and they have someone who has a 233 PowerBook and wanted to get it on the network. 

Only one Mac on the whole bus? That's it, they for sure don't have my vote!  

•••

So far, the Ontario race is boring. Don't know who I'm going to vote for. Liberals p!$$3d me off royally by calling my house while I'm eating supper with my family asking me if they can count on my vote.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Speaking of dipping into funds.










Quite a nose dive in the polls for Eves. 50% decided voters for the Libs, 33% for PCs and the NDP up a bit in decided = ouch time - wow 17% drop in a week.
Listen to Mayor Hazel Uncle Ernie...she knows.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Debate tonight at 6.30. A LOT of Ontarians are intending to watch. Interesting trend that.
What we expect from Uncle Ernie according to the Star


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Looks like a Bassett Hound to me!


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

macello, that "Bassett Hound" line is a great one. mind if i borrow it?


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

macspectrum ..... natch! .... Ona can assume that he's dragging a very large purse.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Wow Eves praised on TV Paul Martin   The crazy Ontario electorate 
Interesting that Hampton and Eves represent the edges. Business friendly versus social programs.
Hampton at least calls a spade a spade and says neither can really afford the programs under the current income.

McGuinty comes right down the middle and I guess that's why he's leading in the polls.

Can we afford it. hmmmm??

Hampton nails Eves on tax cuts doing McGuinty's job for him.
I think Eves is in a no-win situation - Ontario wants change - as Mayor Hazel says - tax cuts don't fly right now - by by Ernie.
Eves comes across well but playing the wrong tune for the times.  
Eves says he shares Ontario's values - the problem is he's not right now.
Hampton is clear on his role against privatization.
He says McGuinty waffles - perhaps it's true - the Liberals have played both sides of the street.


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## iLabmAn (Jan 1, 2003)

I don't know about the rest you, but I think that Dalt looked pretty bad during the debate. Hampton seemed bang on with a lot of his attacks...yet balanced it with plans for his own party. Anyway, I taped the debate and plan to watch it tomorrow with my students. More later.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Eves had some presence but the message just didn't fly. I too thought Hampton did his party justice but again while they might see some gains I think the province will vote Liberal for want of a viable alternative








As Hazel says vote the issues not the person.
Change time - do I think it will be much better - nope.  
But Eves is far too hobbled by his party and Ontario is NOT in the mood for more Harris, Eves knows that and is not being allowed to deal with it.
Bye bye Uncle Ernie


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

For what its worth, I was leaning between Liberal and PC, more to the side of liberal and after the debate I'm leaning more PC. I think Ernie and the PC party have a strong fiscal policy and the philosophy that I know how to spend my own money better than the government knows how to spend it for me. 

I think Ernie hands down won the debate. Hampton got his parties platform message out the best... I just don't agree with his platform.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Yup, Eves, definitely won this debate. Dalt came across as a "dud" . Hampton takes second. 

I don't think I'll have any choise but to try and get Ernie back in. There, I said it.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

But how can you agree with the kind of fiscal policy that sees funds needed for public services handed over to "for profit" firms. It's never worked anywhere including here.
How can the PCs justify privatizing water and hydro yet keep gambling and liquor public








Tax breaks on mortages in the hottest housing market in history??
Tax breaks to corporations in this economy when the school according to his own consultant need 2 billion dollars.
Sorry that does not fly as fiscally sound.
Toronto is desperate for infrastructure funds - cutting taxes now is as ludicrous as Bush - he's cutting taxes while running up a 1/2 TRILLION dollar deficit.
I agree with the Libs - the PCs simply can't pay for it all and cut taxes.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

if ya think Eves won the debate, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I could sell ya, at a good price too  

it's unfrotunate that the reality of politics and debates is such that when you are ahead in the polls, all you want to do is to not screw up.

Eves and Hampton had ground to make up. Dalton could only lose. So he chose a strategy that woulnd't let him lose (but didn't let him win either)

Ernies is pretty much done for. He looked very tired and looked like he really didn't want to fight for this job.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Sorry your honour, but how can you say the Tories have 'a strong fiscal policy' when their natural supporters, the Fraser Institute and the Taxpayers Coalition, are blasting them for dodgy bookkeeping?









There's a lot to be said for the Tories, but this time around none of it has anything to do with fiscal policy.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

Well, they're saying the same thing about both the Tories and the Liberals policy. I think the Tories record for the last 8 years has been pretty good when it comes to fiscal policy. Six years as deputy prime minister is pretty good job training. I'm really, skeptical of Dalton McGinty. And boo to him for fear mongering regarding other diseases like Sars and 9/11 for a reason to have more capacity in our hospitals. 

Not a "to vote or not" issue for me, but something that really bugs me... the notion that the tax credit for private schools is throwing money away out of the education system. 

Can someone answer me this? Why do Catholic schools in Ontario get public funding? Is this not a private school? Why does the local Catholic school get millions of dollars to build super modern fancy schools with beautiful entrances 







and buy computer labs worth millions of dollars...

yet other faith based schools that follow the same public standards curriculum and accountability do not get funding or any financial assistance, yet parents who send there kids to these schools have to pay the same property taxes etc... Its very discriminatory and unfair. If they are not going to fund private schools of other faiths, then they should withdraw funding for Catholic schools. The majority of people like myself who would like to consider sending their kids to a private school are not rich by any means. 

Really ticks me off.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

I think Ernie won the debate however his hair is really bad.  
Howie scored some points but nobody challenged him on how he'd pay the bills.








Dalton? I thought I was watching a loop tape from the last election.  

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

Hi ehmax,

I agree on the school issue. I think if you want to send your kids to a Catholic, Jewish, Baptist, Hindu etc. school YOUR educational tax dollars should go to YOUR CHILDS school provided they meet the provincial education standards. I have some Baptist friends that are paying to send there kids to a private school yet they have to pay for a school their kids don't attend. 
Its not fair.  

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## iLabmAn (Jan 1, 2003)

...but the Catholic Board....at least the Dufferin-Peel Board uses Macs in their Elementary division with Macs making more of an in-road into Secondary.

They deserve to be rewarded.

Now if we could only get PEEL to change its mind.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Just a clarification here.

Private schools in Ontario, unlike public and Catholic school, DO NOT:
- have to hire qualified teachers;
- have to follow the core curriculum;
- have to participate in province-wide testing.

Some do hire qualified teachers, and follow the core curriculum. Few participate in the testing.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Even Canwest Global on today's morning "news" could only give Ernie a "won the debate by a small margin" and they are certainly PC biased.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Founding peoples - it was part of the agreement when Canada was founded that the Catholics would have control and funding over a separate educational system so it predates the Charter which it technically violates.
Thank the PCs for that situation in Ontario.
Quebec has a different fundamental law system to the rest of Canada as well so all of that is part of the original structure.

A strong public education system is critical and the Catholics are overseen by the same standards as the general public system.

It's in everyone's interest to support public education. If you can afford to also go beyond that then that still does ot exempt you from supporting the general weal.
I think the tax break is dumb - the public system needs the dollars and those of us who chose a more specialized school and can afford it can also afford the portion to the public system.

Private schools still have to abide by the overall standards set by the school system. My daughter still has to do the literacy test which is a joke for the type of school she goes to but it's still mandatory.
I basically pay for smaller classes, accelerated programs and individual attention to my daughter's abilities. She was skipped correctly in Grade 5 and would not likely have happened in the public system.
That I'm willing and able to pay for a better education for her should not exempt me from contributing to the public system.
If my daughter was in the public system and I hired tutors to the tune of $12k a year what would be the difference?
In this case she is not a cost to the public system and in fact increases the public system by providing funds that are not used by her and can go to others.
Tax exempting the private school fees robs the public system. Dumb.
••
As to the election. I think what McGuinty tries to get across is that it's very hard to know what resources will be available but that he plans to spend them on health and education which appears to coincide with waht Ontario and Canadians overall want - not less taxes but rebuild infrastructure but with reasonable fiscal restraint as part of it. Trying to crystal ball how much income will be available is very difficult - and that can appear as waffling.
Reducing taxes at this point would seem to just be buying votes and I think to many it's clear that cuts have been made far too deep in some areas so why are funds being reduced to the government when it's obvious these public areas need funds applied to them.
Eves entire last two months seemed just a desperate pork barrel vote buying and I think it has come back to haunt him.


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## Guido (Aug 11, 2003)

Oh well here are my two cents.

A PC win with a minority Government.

We will be at the polls again soon, because the first budget will come out and get shot down, and there you have it. A vote of no confidence. We will be at the poles again. But Dulty will be booted out and we will have a new leader of the Libs. Frankly the whole lot of them are just a bunch of idiots. I don't trust any of them.

Ok that is my 2 cents.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Methinks Guido is right about the swamp-like morass that is Ontario politics.
Liberal Gerard Kennedy waits in the wings, a serious contender.

Meanwhile out of the swamps of Bay St. comes this ethical slime from Ernie's Credit Suisse corporate hideout: "Well, just cover your ass, pal ....... don't go taking the f...... rap for the screw-up!


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

I think the Tories will have to close the gap to at least within five points to have a shot at a minority.

And I don't see that happening.

I expect the Grits, despite increased scrutiny until the end of the election, will get a minority and have a good shot at a majority,

Remember more than 60 per cent of voters still think it's time for a change in government, vs about 20 per cent who think the status quo is just fine.


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

Can I put my 2 cents in?

The Tories have booze on the table for sale. I'm not sure that I agree with selling a cash cow, but I can't say that it is entirely a bad thing. Gambling? The government controls but does not "own" the casinos. Lotteries are cash cows, better to keep them in govt hands.

I agree that selling OPG or Hydro is a very bad idea. But I think that capping the rates was a terrible idea, politically motivated.

The Tories have gotten the slash and burn bug. I believe in balancing the budget and paying down debt, but I really believe that the tax decreases have gotten out of hand. We still have a huge debt to pay off. And I don't mind the govt running a deficit occasionally, as long as it is not a continuous thing. The Liberals and NDP really shafted the province last time out IMHO.

Tax breaks for private schools? Very bad idea. 

If the Tories want to put money back in the pockets of people, try cutting the PST. Even better, harmonize with the GST and really cut the PST.

I'm hoping for a PC minority, would be relieved if we had a Liberal minority, but think we will get a Liberal majority.

The Tories need a new Red Tory leader, one that can keep the finances in order, and yet understand that there is a role for government to play.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Brainstrained...

From what I have heard and seen (strictly anecdotal) the non-public schools that you mentioned regularly graduate students with much better real skills than the public system. I have trained about two dozen young engineers from Ontario in my recent years as a lab technician in the oilpatch...and I have learned that public school types have very limited reading and spelling skills. Far worse than the previous generations (mid seventies to late eighties).

But the people who were educated _outside_ of the public system...particularly in Ontario and BC...are pretty much on par with the trainees I have had to work with from my early days (1976 and later).

Sounds like this particular experiment in radical new teaching methods ("whole word" versus "Phonetics")...like a whole LOT of the other nonsense that was born in the sixties..turned out to be a complete failure.

Gee...what a surprise.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

BTW...Good luck with your election out there. I wish you all the very best. Really.

But I suspect that you are in for a very rough ride...no matter who you elect. Sorry.

Pretty confusing choices, overall. You have a PC leader who is acting like a lefty/liberal....a liberal leader who is not telling anyone how he would really deal with anything (the Wild card) and an NDP leader who is stuck in a previous age.

Two evils and an unknown quantity. Scary stuff, indeed.

Like I said...best of luck. You'll need it.

Boy Howdy!!


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

Macnutt, I have nothing against private schools, being a graduate of one myself.

My point is to clarify some confusion over whether in Ontario private schools face the same MINIMUM standards as public schools. They do not.

They are not required to teach the core curriculum. Nor are they required to have qualified teachers, and the only provincial testing private school students are required to do is the high school literacy test in order to graduate.

None of these factors necessarily make private school students better or worse educated than their public school counterparts. But there is the sense that if private schools benefit with public tax money in the form of a tax credit, then they should meet as a MINIMUM the standards set for the public system. 

Further, the real issue with the tax credit as it is now structured is that the provincial government (read The Tories) benefits financially and the public education system suffers financially with each student that shifts from the public system to a private school.

The tax credit when fully implemented will cost the Tories up to $3,500 per student in lost taxes, but it will save them at least $6,000 (sorry, I'm not sure of the exact figure this year. It's probably closer to $7,000,) in per student funding to the public system. The Tories thus improve their balance sheet by at least $2,500 per lost student.

Meanwhile the public system is further in the hole. Why? The per student grant formula, even supplemented with special education funding, doesn't cover the education cost of high needs students, special education students and recent immigrant children. School boards across the province rely on the total per student grant from all students to help pay for the costs of these students. Few if any of these high-cost students are likely to end up in a private school, so as the public system loses "regular-cost" students to private schools, it must spend an ever-increasing portion of its revenue on high-cost students.

The result will be more "regular cost" students being driven out of the public system, helping the Tories and burdening the public system further.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Good points, brainstrained.

And well taken. We must dedicate enough public money to the special needs students in order to help them become a part of the greater societal whole.

This is basic stuff.

All I can speak about here is my own experience in training newbies in the oilpatch. Young men (mostly young men...there were very few females doing this job) in their early twenties. Pretty much all of them either already had engineeering degrees, or were in the latter stages of obtaining engineering degrees. Smart people, all of them.

Each one of these "green hands" (as they are called) who came my way were dealt with and trained on an individual basis....and as far as I was concerned, if they had made it to my level then they had already run the gauntlet, and I was pretty much committed to turning them into a company asset.

A very well-paid company asset.

And all I had to do was teach them to wade through mountains of conflicting data in order to find oil. 









Simple.

Yeah... _right._









The problem was...many (most) of them could barely read or write. A whole whack of them turned out to be functionally illiterate! No matter what public school system that they had graduated from. (and, yes, we had several from Ontario as well as the western Provinces).

Pretty much all of them could do serious math and grasp euclidian concepts based on 3-D seismic data. Most of them could run a gas chromatograph or a mass spectrometer like a pro, after only a few days in the field.

These were some seriously bright kids, after all.

But, when I got up in the morning to check their work...I would be confronted by a series of post-it notes that looked as though they had been written in ancient hebrew or an obscure dialect of the lost etruscan tongue.

It sure didn't look like english! I often spent more time trying to decode their notes than I did crunching the data while looking for petroleum!  

Eventually, I came to a conclusion....

Basic language skills have taken a serious nosedive in the quarter century that I have been training recent graduates from our halls of higher learning.  

This is scary stuff. And it should be a wake up call for those of us who think that there has been some sort of improvement in the school curriculum.

Nothing could be farther from the truth!   

But the young lads and lassies that I encountered on the job who were educated _outside_ of the standard school system seemed to be just as capable in the english language as all of their predecessors. They could spell...they could write...they were in total command of their own native language.

The rest of them were NOT. Not even CLOSE!

My conclusions? The present version of modern public schooling is falling far short of what we had a few short years ago. The present version of non-public schooling is right on par with what we have come to expect from an educational system.

Whatever the non-public school system costs us all, it is worth it in the long run. Whatever the public system costs us in taxes, it is a bad deal....judging by the end result.

Time for a change.

Just my two cents worth.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Good post Brainstrained - I'm too close to a top private school I guess to have a perspective on the rest but I agree entirely with your analysis.

MacNutt that's about right and it does go back to a fight over whole language versus phonetic teaching which pages and pages could be written about.
Fact is many turn out the way you describe with the current teaching methods and it was one reason Harris got in to "reform" education.
It's too bad the kids are the guinea pigs.
•••

Back to the election. As I mentioned elsewhere about the NDP being the Tories best defence McGuinty is pleading with Ontarians to not split the vote. Some 30 key ridings show the NDP in the lead or in tight race with the Libs.
A Liberal minority might be a fine thing but I'm afraid it might be a total PC meltdown the way it's heading - projections show a 70 seat Liberal majority  wow - much of that has to be laid on a vote out situation.
Layton has been in the province campaigning for the NDP, it will be interesting to see how 416 goes.

The Tory insiders have been busy updating their resumés...perhaps the writing on the wall is clear. Bye bye.

Resumés 

Good analysis here.
Eve's, say hello to Campbell

[ September 27, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: macdoc ]


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Honestly macdoc...and all of the rest of you in Central Canada...I wish you all the best during this upcoming election.

You are a very important part of Canada and the direction that you all choose affects the fortunes of us all.  

Again...I wish you all the best.   

But if you guys choose to go with the near left (Liberals) or the far left (NDP) or some combination of the above...

Then I can only give you my sincerest condolences.  

Because you will be bucking the current worldwide trend and going totally _backwards_ !  

And...four or five years from now, when you all have realised what a tragic mistake you have made... then we, in the rest of the REAL world will welcome you back to reality.

Honest.

Just don't expect the rest of us to pitch in and bail you out monetarily. 

We, in the rest of the world, have already figured out what works and what doesn't. It was a very hard education, when all was said and done. We have paid for our silly mistakes in a big way. A BIG way. A painfully big way.

And don't expect any of us to help you guys pay for your own education. (and it WILL be expensive!) 

You people will have to learn these simple truths the hard way...just as we did.

You're on your own in that particular area.

Trust me on this.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)




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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

The THC levels in this years crop over in Salt Springs must of been particularly good. 







No offense Macnutt, but that must of been one of *thee* most condescending post I have ever read on ehMac. 









Yes, in 2 years we'll be pleading for help here in Ontario: "Help us!! Oh please help us oh wise right-winged-one! Help us pay for our education! We have erred and we now see the light!"









I'm just teasing Macnutt, but even you must admit, that post was a little over the top. 

Trust me on that one.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

The THC may be responsible for the flight of fancy, but some residual nitromethane, an agent of toxic neuropathy in combination with the "doob" and a "wee dram" might just have driven our man to hit the "Add" button. 

It has not been a good week for macnutt and the rest of his world.

*First* this week's Economist cover headlines "Canada's New Spirit" with a pic of a moose with cool shades staring at the viewer. 

CBC comments: _Magazine says Canada is ' cool ' 
"A leading financial magazine is shining a favourable spotlight on Canada, saying the country has changed for the better over the past decade."_

*Then* the rabid Vancouver Sun rats him out with this seven point freakin' la-di-f...'n-da: 

1- Canada has led the Group of Seven (G7) industrialized countries in economic growth for two of the past three years and projections suggest Canada will again lead the pack in 2003. 

2- Canada has outpaced the U.S. for the past four years and projections suggest that trend will continue. 

3- The expansion of the Canadian economy last year fuelled the biggest job growth on record in this country: About 560,000 new jobs were created here while the U.S. economy shed workers. Canada was one of three countries among the 15 richest to expand its employment ranks. 

4- Personal incomes are rising. The average Canadian enjoyed a 2.9-per-cent increase in disposable income last year -- about $600 more in spending money. 

5- By one important measure, Canada has improved its living standards faster than any G7 nation during the past four years. The measurement takes the total value of the goods and services produced by a nation -- its gross domestic product -- and divides it by population. 

6- Canada's public finances have improved steadily in the past five years as $46.7 billion in debt was paid down by Ottawa. Most provinces balanced their books. In relation to the size of its economy, Canada's public debt is among the lowest in the G7. 

7- Canada is now the only G7 country that has both a federal budget surplus and a surplus in the trade balance of its goods and services. Only two other G7 countries have ever pulled off twin surpluses in their government and current accounts: Germany and Japan during their best economic years. 

Little wonder the pouting Stevie Harper looks like he's now about to cry.









...... *Meanwhile*, from canoe.ca back in rural Ontariario, desperate ON Tories are trying to rope in voters dreading the possibility of gay-marriage ..... a federal responsibility. 

_"In the Orillia-area riding of Simcoe-North, Conservative incumbent Garfield Dunlop says the community demanded he address the question of homosexual unions, regardless of political jurisdiction. 

In perhaps the most overt manifestation of the same-sex issue during the campaign, Bruce Smith - the Conservative candidate for Elgin-Middlesex-London - has run newspaper ads supporting the traditional definition of marriage while highlighting Liberal incumbent Steve Peters' support for the legal recognition of homosexual unions. 

The headline of the ad reads: "A striking difference on same-sex marriage" followed by "Bruce Smith NO" and Steve Peters YES." 

Smith, who lost the seat to Peters in the 1999 campaign, said he ran the ad in response to public demand on where he stood on the issue. 

Incumbent Tory candidate Garry Guzzo says it's "the number 1 issue," but concedes that it's not a provincial issue at all._ 

It looks like the Big Purse can't buy votes back in Canada Central .... but why not try bulls**ting a few daft Tory voters into thinking it's a federal election?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Hmmmm, seems the Economist has deemed that article on Canada to be "premium content" and as such is "pay-per-view."


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

It's hardly worth the bother nevermind the expense.
The Economist reads like tepid piss a la Time magazine.
I'll get me a print copy today just for the cover although I think that the 7 factoids above are known to all butt the nutts ..


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Mayor, Macnutt's earlier post is just another example of what has become his typical modus operandi: he takes a position on an issue and defends it by berating any opposing view. 

Today, he's decided that public schools are failing and that people can only be well educated through private schools. Supporting an argument with anecdotal references to people he worked with on the oilfields makes for an interesting read, but I'm still convinced that there's no single right way to educate a child. Some of our best brightest minds are a product of the public system, and some of our dullest citizens attended all the right private schools. The reverse, is, of course, equally true, but on balance, smart people are a product of factors that extend well beyond one's choice of school: life experience, health, family stability and support, affluence...pick some or all of the above.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

Of the Economist cover story, calling Canada "cool," Globe and Mail columnist (and fellow Ottawa Valley lad) Roy MacGregor said it best: 

"It might have been nicer if the declaration had come from Rolling Stone or Vanity Fair -- coming from such a grey, conservative publication as The Economist, it's a bit like being called 'dirty' by Canadian Gardener..."


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

If you filter the right wing cant, ( which lately seems a bit muted, wonder why) I find the Economist give the fastest overall "world view" and does best when it "reports" instead of comments.
I guess you can't entirely stamp out the BBC influence. " "Today in.... " in the very best unemotional Oxford accent.

It combines quick takes on a lot of stuff with some good in depth. Where else would you find a SciAm level article on bananas in Nigeria with political analysis of Bush's America.

••
I was in the theatre and watched a very quick NDP ad with Hampton. Effective and to the point in 30 seconds. " That's what public power is about".
Should be interesting this Thursday - lot of looking in the rear view mirror by BOTH the Tories ( in danger of losing Offical Opp ) and the Libs - splitting the vote especially in the cities.
There is an appealing clarity to the NDP position these days and having an energy expert as Official Opp is appealing. Wouldn't a Lib minority depending on the NDP to govern be a hoot  

Centre left Ontario, centre right Feds - Ontario plays both sides of the street once more


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Off to vote later and see the Concorde take off at 6pm. Show my daughter the wheels of democracy at work and a very noisy but glorious piece of hardware 










Wonder how close our own ehMac poll will be to the final results.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

I already voted 3x today.


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

QUOTE It's hardly worth the bother nevermind the expense. The Economist reads like tepid piss a la Time magazine. I'll get me a print copy today just for the cover although I think that the 7 factoids above are known to all butt the nutts END QUOTE

IMHO, The Economist is one of the better publications, it certainly is much better researched and written then either Time or Newsweek.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

an acquaintance of mine called *The Economist* a "left wing rag."


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Macnutt perhaps  You'd have to be pretty far right to consider the Big E "left wing".


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Red alert - landslide starting in Ontario. 70 seats for the Libs!!!!!

  Diane Cunningham Edu minister comes in 3rd in London - my my that's a huge statement. No question the vote out was in full swing.


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## stinand (Jan 15, 2001)

Extra red alert 45% of Ontario did not vote. The other 55% voted against the other parties. To quote the 4 Tops “It’s the same old song”


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ony 52% of eligible voters cast ballots


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Doing bookends eh Andy.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

*YummyYummy .... another decade, another Tory/NeoCon disaster in a pool of blood! * 
We Feast on Tory cadavers! .....








Will Ernie hang around! .... NOT?









Yes, it was Harris' legacy to lose ...... this is ....... so ...... beautiful .....  

_" McGuinty to call Ipperwash inquiry "_
(It was one of MrGuinty's first orders of business today.)


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