# Do you buy organic food



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Noticed the space for organic food is growing and places like Whole Foods in Oakville are occupying supermarket retail space and locations.
Clearly it's big business now.
Wondered how Mac users are participating.
This seems a good trend for some of the family farms as organic requires close attention and so far command higher prices.

I buy some things more on a Fair Trade basis ( coffee for one ) and Omega 3 eggs which also are organic but not so much on the organic produce unless price and produce quality are similar.

So, thoughts, tips, where to buy??

Is this a good thing for the farm community or just one more expense to be undertaken.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I'd love to buy true organic food. I live very near an all organic store and have gone in a few times to buy things. The problem I have is, what is "organic"? If I'm going to pay double the price for something then I'd like to know if the product is genuine. What proof do I have?

I asked the owner of the store this question. How did he know for certain that both he and I weren't being ripped off. The problem is, we don't know and I suspect there may be some hanky panky going on as "organic" becomes more trendy.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah I agree - it's tough to know and standards are still emerging.

Perhaps list you fav store and location so others in the area might drop in.

Do you actually perceive differences??/ ie taste etc or is it more a long term insurance policy.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

MacDoc said:


> I buy some things more on a Fair Trade basis ( coffee for one )


You may want to watch out for this one, in order to become "Fair Trade" certified coffee farm owners need to pay to be a part of it. Being that most coffee farms are in third world countrys and they are continuously paying to be "certified" I don't think there is any gaurantee that the workers on these farms are getting paid anymore than any other farm. But at least you can sleep at night. 

It is best to look for coffees that reinvest into the farms in which they buy from. This way at least you know that the coffee company is committed to quality and keeping future harvests at the same level. Unlike Tim Hortons where they concentrait on quantity and not quality.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

my first sample of organic foods were bananas

the organic version didn't taste like wood, much more banana flavour and held their ripe much longer
cost about $0.20 more per pound, but I'm only buying for one person so it doesn't add up to much

the big problem, as mentioned earlier, is to know what the definition of organic is at your local grocer


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

I go with synthetic foods. Soylent Green is my favourite.

It doesn't make much difference to me. I only cook a handful of meals at home in a given week, and usually as a last minute thing, thus making buying groceries ahead of time risky. I would consider 'organic' beef, but the label would have to mean something more than 'local farm', I'd want a standard of feed and treatment before paying a huge price premium. Of course, getting around by walking, it would also have to be convenient. 

For cheeses, except for my standby cheddar, I try to avoid QC products. That's not a quality thing (although a lot of it is very bland), it's about the abusive market control.

Does anybody know of trustworthy label standards for beef and sausages?


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I buy the Kicking Horse Frair Trade brand....a Canadian operation.
http://kickinghorsecoffee.com/index.php?section=fair_trade

So I have a choice either deal with a major - where I KNOW it's dog eat dog trading practices.
Or deal with a small Canadian company that
a) might have it right
b) at least I'm keeping some Canadians employed.

I've tended to avoid organic apples as I find they are not crisp enough. Blemishes don;t bother me but proper storage does.

Banana's I'd have a hard time justifying it - anything with a strong removable skins seems a bit odd to worry about beyond the farming practices.

What I'd really like to see are foods identified from sustainable farms but that's a ways off.

Until the middlemen get cut downon their profits and farmers get a fair slice it's hard to see massive change beyond vote with $$ - but that just benefits the food distribution oligarchy.

With transport costs high I fear it's going to be toughter for farmers to work around the large scale operations in the middle.

Paris is surrounded by wheat fields specifically for bread flour and strongly protected :clap:.


We on the other hand park the QEW in some of the best farmland in the world. sigh


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

I'll buy Organic if given the choice.

Milk for example, I always buy Organic because I don't want to put all of the hormones into my body.

There are some things however that simply cannot be Organic. Honey is one of those things.

Organic is a better, healthier choice. And it has to be certified Organic.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Beej Schnieders certainly works at the quality and you are supporting a local Canadian concern.

http://www.schneiders.ca/

I see they've merged with Maple Leaf so again you are supporting local employment in many small centres.



> The company produces more than 1,000 products such as ham, sausage, wieners, bacon, luncheon meats, specialty meats, and grocery products for sale through retail stores, delicatessens and foodservice establishments. The company has operations in Kitchener, Ayr, Hanover, St. Marys, Guelph, Mississauga, Toronto and Port Perry, Ontario; Winnipeg, Manitoba; Surrey, British Columbia; and St-Anselme, Quebec.


With homegrown sources at least there is some leverage on standards and moves to sustainable and organic practices.

I buy their Octoberfest regularly to assauge my Germanic background. Saurkraut, Octoberfest and a bunch of red potatoes. Yum 

••

MaxP - care to elucidate "hormones" IN the milk in Canada???

I buy Omega 3 milk BTW


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

I put priority on buying from small, local producers before buying organic; I find them at my local public market). Often it amounts to the same thing or better, even if there's no certification. Can't wait for that chemical-pesticide-free corn to show up, assuming we get some sunshine...

Very interesting reading on the implications of mass-produced organic that has to travel long distances. If it takes all kinds of fuel to get organic goods to your table, how much better is it, in the grand scheme of things? 

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/content/articles/060515crat_atlarge



> Yet the net benefit of all this to the planet is hard to assess. Michael Pollan, who thinks that we ought to take both a wider and a deeper view of the social, economic, and physical chains that deliver food to fork, cites a Cornell scientist’s estimate that growing, processing, and shipping one calorie’s worth of arugula to the East Coast costs fifty-seven calories of fossil fuel. The growing of the arugula is indeed organic, but almost everything else is late-capitalist business as usual. Earthbound’s compost is trucked in; the salad-green farms are models of West Coast monoculture, laser-levelled fields facilitating awesomely efficient mechanical harvesting; and the whole supply chain from California to Manhattan is only four per cent less gluttonous a consumer of fossil fuel than that of a conventionally grown head of iceberg lettuce—though Earthbound plants trees to offset some of its carbon footprint. “Organic,” then, isn’t necessarily “local,” and neither “organic” nor “local” is necessarily “sustainable.”


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I'll buy organic whenever I can because of a Taiwanese friend who claimed that non organic food was a major cause of allergies.

There is a local tomato and pepper greenhouse I visited last year that does not use pesticides but insteads uses bees to get at the bugs. But because they use fertilizer, they can't be considered organic.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

Beej said:


> I go with synthetic foods. Soylent Green is my favourite.


As usual, Beej, you beat me to the punch. (My automatic response to "Do you buy organic food?" was "As opposed to the plastic kind?")

I live in Hippie central. We have more acres of 'organic gardening' per capita than any place on the planet. But what IS organic, or, more correctly 'organically grown'? Grown without genetic engineering? Grown without pesticides? Grown without fertilizer (natural or otherwise)? All of these things? Some, but not all? None of them, but just not plastic? The term 'organic' is thrown about like some magic bullet. As if 'organic' automatically means 'better nutrition', or 'better for the planet'. I have acres of 'organically grown' mushrooms in my back yard. Some are edible, some will kill you. But they're all 'organic'. 

We all have to make intelligent choices for what is best for ourselves and what is best for our planet. The 'organic' label doesn't do it for me. But I will buy locally produced food because it is usually fresher, tastes better and probably has lost a few less nutrients on the way to market.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Well here are the gov standards

http://www.pwgsc.gc.ca/cgsb/on_the_net/032_0310/standard-e.html



> The following principles are the foundation of organic production.
> 
> Protect the environment, minimize soil degradation and erosion, decrease pollution, optimize biological productivity and promote a sound state of health — The main goals of organic production systems are to optimize biological productivity, environmental quality, and community wellness. Operators of organic enterprises strive to reduce or eliminate reliance on practices using natural- or synthetically-based compounds that harm beneficial organisms within the soil, deplete non-renewable resources, compromise water and air quality, or which, through misuse, could endanger the health of agricultural workers, the agricultural community, or the consumer.
> 
> ...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MLeh said:


> The 'organic' label doesn't do it for me. But I will buy locally produced food because it is usually fresher, tastes better and probably has lost a few less nutrients on the way to market.


Me neither.

Just last week, CTV Edmonton's consumer reporter went to a local "organic" store and purchased six different types of veggies.

She then visited a regular grocery store and bought the identical "non organic" veggies.

Both were taken to a lab and tested for their level of toxins and surprise, surprise the organic stuff although 60% higher in cost had no significant decrease in the normal airborne toxins all food we consume have.

Bottom line? They recommended save your money and buy plain old locally produced goods.

Apparently organic foods are only for the misinformed who can afford them.


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## duosonic (Jan 7, 2004)

I am fortunate to live in an area where I can get locally & regionally grown foods, where I know many of the food producers. I don't go by the label "organic" as much as by what I know about how the food is produced: sellers at local farmers markets who don't use pesticides, who steward their land well and use locally or regionally produced mulches, etc.; I have a friend who supplies me with eggs from her "personal" flock of chickens, which have unrestricted access to lawn/gardens/etc. (as opposed to her commercial flock, which are penned) in exchange for my compost; I buy an "organic" turkey at Thanksgiving (and yes, it DOES taste better!) from a reliable producer; I buy local organic beef when it's available and local organic apple juice in season; fair traded coffee; my spice and I fish for trout and eat what we catch from the lake which is just a few blocks from our house – on the other hand, I buy Robin Hood flour and Delta rice, grocery store pork, chicken, pasta, etc. I'm trying to move toward more local and regional foods, but I'm not a fanatic about it.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

I know a guy that runs an orchard and he said if you get a bag of apples that claims to be organic yet are not full of scabs and blemishes, your being ripped off. Apple are a fickle fruit that require a regiment of well timed sprays of pesticides and dormant oils to keep them clear of defects. Otherwise you get some pretty ugly looking product. I've looked at so called organic apples in the grocery store and I think people are getting ripped off.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

SINC, I'm not surprised to hear there is little difference with so-called organic foods. Toxins are part of our eco system and aren't likely to diminish. They're in the air we breathe and our water. Rain is high in toxins. Unless something is grown indoors using purified water and air it would be impossible to eliminate these from the food product.

I'm skeptical of this trendy "organic" business. Sounds great but I fear it is a sham.

When veggies are in season here I prefer to buy from farmer's markets just so I get fresh produce and support the local farmers. I don't have that choice in the middle of January. Who really knows how those green beans or broccoli or asparagus are grown?


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## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

We try to go to a place that supplies free-range chickens (chicken breasts tend to be larger and far tastier) but that's about the extent of it for me personally. My gal opts for lots of "organic" produce if she can get her hands on it, but this guy generally can't tell the difference between that and the supposedly 'lesser' produce.

As has been mentioned, between toxins widely and thoroughly having penetrated the ecosphere and our penchant for prettier, more vivacious-appearing fruit via finicky breeding and GM practices, it's [email protected] hard to determine what is natural anymore. I think organic as a term has been more or less relegated to branding for cynical marketing types everywhere. Perhaps if there were more in the way of clear-cut regulation as to what constitutes an organic label... on the other hand, that's just more red tape and paperwork, isn't it? Like we don't have enough of that stuff as it is.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

The "organic" label on its own doesn't do it for me either. From Spring through Fall I buy all my produce at a local fruit & vegetable market but that's mostly because the quality is excellent, I like the idea of locally-grown stuff, and I prefer supporting local growers whenever possible. 

The only organic-label product I buy regularly is President's Choice PC Organics Peanut Butter -- because it doesn't have any additives and seems to taste better than other non-additive peanut butters that I've tried. Overall though, I think it's better to make judicious nutritional / dietary choices whether the products carry organic labelling or not.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Beej Schnieders certainly works at the quality and you are supporting a local Canadian concern.
> 
> http://www.schneiders.ca/
> 
> I see they've merged with Maple Leaf so again you are supporting local employment in many small centres.


I like some of Schneider's products but being 'local' doesn't mean much to me. They earn my business off their product, not their passport.

If a reliable label (that tastes good) guarantees certain practices I'd prefer, then that means something. Whether they are a local farmer, an Alberta farmer, or a farmer in another country with the associated supply-chain of employees (including Canadian importers and distribution), is a distinction I don't place much stock in. I'd just like good beef and sausage that I would pay a premium for given some progressive farming practices. Nothing revolutionary, just two-steps ahead of the minimum is good enough.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Well here are the gov standards


Thanks. Not inspiring or even necessarily good, but at least I have some more info. on what they are and are not encouraging.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

I'd call those 'guidelines', or probably more appropriately a 'philosophy', but certainly not 'standards'.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Me neither.
> 
> Just last week, CTV Edmonton's consumer reporter went to a local "organic" store and purchased six different types of veggies.
> 
> ...


I buy a lot of bananas in the summer as they make for great snacks on the golf course.

The "regular" bananas purchased at my local loblaws/superstore or whatever it's called have less tast and go rotten much faster than their "organic" counterparts from the same store

I do buy "regular" bananas now and then to keep testing my results and so far it comes up the same each time.

When I used to live in Toronto I tried some natural beef from a company called Meyer's if I remember correctly and found I got ill, so I stopped buying that brand of beef.

I don't buy much beef anymore as I eat much more chicken and fish nowadays and there isn't any Brunos nearby up here in Shangri-la


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

Rather interesting on the 'left' coast, to visit the Saturday markets on Salt Spring Island, where more often than not, local producers will have organic fruits and veggies for sale. I can't get over the huge size of the produce. I know he can't comment further on this, but in his honor, Trust Me On This.

About six months ago, my doctor told me I had to get my cholesterol down... way, way too high. Didn't make much sense to me... I'm 29, 170lbs, 5'10. Little fat on me. I was a sucker for cheese though, and quick, easy heat up a frozen bag of food sort of guy. So, it's either eat right, or throw back $100 every couple of months for Lipitor, and hope for the best...

I've cut all cheese, pork and beef products out of my diet, no more frozen stuff, no more sat/trans fat, and now I seem to consume lots and lots of vegetables, and any products I can with flax. In turn, organic products have snuck their way in to my shopping basket. Taste wise, I think the organic stuff tastes better, and if the dollar figure isn't outrageously different, I'll give it a go.

I'll never go shopping in a total organic store however. Prices are nearly double, and my head spins just far too much thinking about that fact, and why their store is nearly empty.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> ...
> Banana's I'd have a hard time justifying it - anything with a strong removable skins seems a bit odd to worry about beyond the farming practices....


MacDoc, the removable skin does not protect you from pesticides. Chemicals travel through the soil and into the flesh of fruits and vegetables. Some might be removed by peeling or washing, but not all. 
Some might say "Why be worried about _trace_ chemicals in the flesh of the fruit/veggy?" It's not the little bit I worry about. These chemicals tend to bio-accumulate, build up in our bodies over time - not just from eating, but from the air and water and casual contact. Think of the Beluga corpses that are considered toxic waste. They didn't just consume a big meal of toxins in one sitting, and then croak after dessert.

Also, for me, the issue of pesticides is much larger than just what's on the food that enters my body. I'm concerned about the soil, the microorganisms in the soil, the pesticide run-off into aquifers, the farm workers exposed to the pesticides, etc., ... - you get the idea.

Can I taste the difference between organic and non-organic? Definitely.


_"The cure is on your plate"_


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

Organic food? No! I always buy the totally synthetic non-organically based food created from minerals and electrical energy!

Seriously, of course I buy organic food - since I'm an organism myself, that's the only kind I can assimilate. As for "Organic Food"® I won't pay the premium unless someone convinces me that I should, which hasn't happened to date.


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## Ena (Feb 7, 2005)

WalMart announced this month that they are going to be selling organic food. 

There was an interview on our local CBC aft show with an organic farmer and the effects this news may have on them. The woman suspects that WalMart will use vertical integration among other practices to cut prices.


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## UnleashedLive (Aug 9, 2004)

I probably would buy organic food, but right now I can barely afford food itself. Ahh the life of a starving student, fun indeed.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

For those who enjoy the "organic" bananas have you purchased the every day "off brand" bananas at Price Chopper? I have a sneaky feeling they may be the same thing you're paying a premium for at the big name grocery stores. I can definitely taste the difference between those and the tasteless things I buy at Dominion or Loblaws. You can even smell the difference. The aroma is much stronger with the "cheap" bananas. They are just like the real thing I've bought in Central America.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I've bought both organic and non-organic beef steaks and find it hit and miss.So far, no organic steak has been as tasty as the best Dominion steak of similar cut I've purchased.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Macfury said:


> I've bought both organic and non-organic beef steaks and find it hit and miss.So far, no organic steak has been as tasty as the best Dominion steak of similar cut I've purchased.


Tried an Alberta steak lately? If not, give one a try. Taste is incredible compared to all others.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> MaxP - care to elucidate "hormones" IN the milk in Canada???
> 
> I buy Omega 3 milk BTW


Sorry MacDoc, My Error. The foggy mind comes with 3 am feedings.

I can't see how dairy farmers use hormones for their milk production, beef cattle however is another story. Which is why I always get my beef from a butcher that I have used for years. His meat is all free range or grain fed. And you can taste the difference. I know I'll be healthier for it.

What is the benefit of buying something that has Omega 3 in it? From what I can see it is something that has been artificially introduced to the product (milk, eggs). I know the benefits of Essential Fatty Acids, but why not get it in a more natural form?


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

I buy organic when I can - the Bunny Love carrots I find are thicker & juicier than the others. I like to support not using chemicals to grow food as much as possible since high use of pesticides have greater environmental impact beyond digesting them first hand.

I also try not to support "big beef". I worked with a guy whose dad's a butcher in a small town and big beef industry is nasty - they really over price there stuff and their practices are not the healthiest for the population. I'm not a big meat eater but if I want good beef, I'll go to this guy's dad because his stuff is good quality local produce with cows that aren't full of hormones or badly treated.

I avoid big industry as much as possible - it's an ethical choice as well as the animals are treated poorly in big industrial meat producing places that pack in the chickens and cut their beaks off to stop them from pecking each other. I buy free range eggs.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

I buy organics whenever I can. I find almost all organic food tasts better. Organic poultry cooks faster. Of course you can find slanted studies like the one mentioned above but notice it is only looking at one part of the problem. Yes organics are going to have a similar amount of airborne pollutants as their non organic counterparts but what they will have less of is: hormones, chemical fertalizers, insecticides, herbicieds, and fungicides. These chemicals are often implicatd in cancers of various sorts. Organic soil is tested and contains far fewer chemicles. Furthermore organics are not allowed to be genetically modified to the extent "normal" food is. Why is this GM issue a problem?
http://www.capetimes.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=272&fArticleId=2530096


> Secret Monsanto research shows GM maize damages the health of rats
> May 23, 2005
> 
> By Geoffrey Lean
> ...


Note: Mon 863 has been approved for use in Canada. Apparently the modification involves integrating the bacteria BTI into the cell structure of the corn. BTI is (irronically enough) an organic mosquito control...
All American (non organic) milk (and therefore everything made from it) contains wierd growth hormones which are illegal in Canada. Many products made from this milk are sold in Canada. 

As I said above I think the study is slanted and designed to give the false impression that organics are just as dirty as non organics but according to more realistc studies this is a lie:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/national/2002/05/08/Consumers/pesticidesorganic_020508.html


> One out of four organic fruits, veggies have pesticides
> Last Updated Wed, 08 May 2002 14:49:43 EDT
> CBC News
> 
> ...


This is the story "THEY" don't want you to think about.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Sorry, if this has already been mentioned, since I've only had time to skim threads lately, but organic farming has much more to do with sustainable land management than with providing healthy food for yuppies. At least that was the original motivation for the first organic farmers. (Now that bigger businesses are getting into it they are seeking to cash in on the organic label and diluting the standards to a degree - the new USDA Organic standard is an example of that.) 

Conventional farming using chemical fertilizers and pesticides is often very destructive to the farmland and the rural environment. Organic farming enriches and enhances the farmland, the soil gets better and better if it is done properly. Most organic farmers are quite passionate about this issue. Talk to an organic farmer and you will learn this.

When I buy organic, which I usually do when it is available, this is a bigger reason for me than the health benefits. The higher price, which incidentally is not always a lot higher, is my contribution to a better environment. My body is probably irrevocably polluted with years of junk food consumption and is likely beyond redemption through healthier eating.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Is there even any regulation for the term "organic"? What does it mean really? 

Less pesticides? Who cares if they just wash off or become inert after a period of time.

I get the sense it's one of those marketing gimmicks, like "Cholesterol Free" and "Fat Free".


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

"Organic" means whatever the certifying body says it means. Go to the web site of the body in question and they will spell out the definition that they are certifying.

Yes you can wash some of the pesticides off but if you think you are washing them all off you are fooling yourself big time.
http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/9368/Canadian_children_filled_with_toxins_carcinogens


> The comments came after the group Environmental Defence released a new study Thursday revealing that children as young as 10 are showing signs of contamination by toxic chemicals. While some, like insecticides, are in the environment, others are found in such innocuous everyday items as non-stick pans, computers and mattresses or furniture treated with stain repellent chemicals.
> 
> Among the five families tested, on average parents tested positive for 32 of the 68 chemicals tested for while children showed an average of 23 chemicals.
> 
> ...


Keep hiding your head in the sand, the toxins will still get in your body especially if you do nothing to reduce the problem.

To call Organic a fad is correct but it is also alot more. Organics bennefit the plant by keeping soil clean and promoting farming practises that replenish the soil insted of the depletion, add pot ash system most of comercial agri-buisness now uses. All this on top of a serious reduction in the chemical intake of substances that should never have been approved for use by humans in the first place. What do I mean by that? Ever hear of DDT? Is was supposedly safe to use but now we know better, after everyone has ingested the stuff. Even now it is being found in Canadian childeren because it is persistant. True that not all chems are as persistant but the metabolites of many of these substances are also in question...
The reality is that we are all part of a huge science experiment without our consent. Personally I am pissed. Food producers should have to prove that the chems they use are safe but instead we have to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that a substance is not safe before it gets banned. That is just plain wrong.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

guytoronto said:


> Is there even any regulation for the term "organic"? What does it mean really?
> 
> Less pesticides? Who cares if they just wash off or become inert after a period of time.
> 
> I get the sense it's one of those marketing gimmicks, like "Cholesterol Free" and "Fat Free".


It partly is. Different "certifications" have different terms and guidelines. Then you have other elements that can get into play. An organic standard does not necessarily mean "better".


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

ArtistSeries said:


> An organic standard does not necessarily mean "better".


Maybe so but it usually does.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Let's cut through the bull:
http://www.cog.ca/orgquickfacts.htm


> Currently in Canada, only Quebec and British Columbia have an organic regulation.


So, most of the country doesn't.


> The organic sector is currently updating the [organic agriculture] standard in *anticipation of a federal regulation*. The law will regulate the use of the word organic and will contain penalties for businesses that use the word to describe practices that do not comply with the organic standard.


In other words, there is no government regulation in most of this country as to what can be labeled "organic".


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

I'd even question some of their standards:


> Organic agriculture does not allow the use of:
> * Irradiation


From the FDA's website:
http://www.fda.gov/opacom/catalog/irradbro.html


> Food irradiation is allowed in nearly 40 countries and is endorsed by the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association and many other organizations.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

martman said:


> Maybe so but it usually does.


There is a lot of confusion as to what is organic, natural or other. 
The book "Fast Food Nation" briefly touches on these problems.
Even an "organic" label does not ensure food safety, often it can be a it work against it. Organic peanut butter (and even the make your own in stores) is usually higher in aflatoxins than regular peanuts. The QC that goes into Kraft or Skippy is well ahead of "Organic" and "natural" peanut butter. 

A few years ago, patrons at the restaurant "Le Commensal" suffered food poisoning from their so-called better foods. The supply chain is an important aspect to the quality and "toxicity" of foods. Often, organic foods are at disadvantage here.

There are some aspects to food production that can account for the lack of "character", flavour and blandness - but these are not necessarily due healthiness of the food in question. For examples, most Tomatoes are picked green and ripened "artificially", how can you expect these to taste as good as ones that matured on the vine? Rapid curing of cheeses cannot give it the character and flavour that some fans like.

Also, there is a lot of misinformation about the additives that we use. We hear these long names and assume that they are artificial. Sometimes the source and method of fabrication is misleadingly simple.

If you feel better eating "organic", there certainly is nothing wrong with that, but some mainstream producers are just as good and sometimes better.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

ArtistSeries said:


> If you feel better eating "organic", there certainly is nothing wrong with that, but some mainstream producers are just as good and sometimes better.


Yes, but the sustainable land use and environmental practices are of greater importance than health concerns in my mind. If we care about farmland and having it continue to be healthy and productive into the future we should embrace organically farmed food.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> I'd even question some of their standards:
> 
> 
> From the FDA's website:
> http://www.fda.gov/opacom/catalog/irradbro.html


I fail to see your point.
What is wrong with irradition? Simple. irradiating food causes the molecules to vibrate. This vibration results in the release of electrons which stay in the food. These are known as "free radicals" which to me sounds like a good thing but really isn't. Free radicals have been widly impicated in cancers. Not only that but irradiating food reduces the nutritional content of the food.

I'd have to say the FDA is not a competant sourcse of information on this and many other food issues because its role is also advocacy of technologies the US gov't wants to put in place.

http://www.ccnr.org/food_irradiation.html
These scientists don't think alot of the FDA position on irradiation and nor do I.


> Donald R Louria, Ph.D.,
> 
> Chairman, Department of
> Preventive Medicine and Community Health,
> ...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Gov regulation does is not the only form of consistency - some industries self regulate effectively or at least in a manner that says "consistent product made to these standards".
Yes it's emerging and excluding irradiated foods is completely irrational, what the hell do people think they are doing in a microwave 

Still the organic movement and it's spin offs in slow food and sustainable agriculture warrants support - especially the latter.
Closed cycle farms with little or no reliance on "forced fertility" is the most critical in my mind.
That along with GM may actually provide good healthy food on fewer acres in the long run.

Pesticides are an issue but I suspect we breathe in more than we ever eat.

•••

Agriculture issues relate most to labour issues.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

martman said:


> What is wrong with irradition? Simple.* irradiating food causes the molecules to vibrate*. This vibration results in the release of electrons which stay in the food. These are known as "free radicals" which to me sounds like a good thing but really isn't. Free radicals have been widly impicated in cancers. Not only that but irradiating food reduces the nutritional content of the food.


So, is it safe to assume you don't use a microwave? 

There are more than one method of food irradiation and the dosages vary. I'd be more worried about destroying vitamins and the texture of food than any possible radioactive contamination at the moment. 

I'd prefer obligatory label on *all* irradiated foods.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

Yes you are correct I do not use a microwave.
I am not in any way a fanatic however. I do eat at restaurants. I do eat some junk food. But I make an effort to minimize these. 
I'd prefer mandatory labeling for all irradiated and GM food.
I am not totally against all chems and additives but I think the FDA and Health Canada have it backwards. Manufacturese etc. should have to prove a process/additive is safe not the current situation where one has to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that something is not safe to get it off the shelves.

I'm most worried about the free radicals. The radiation is very short lived but the damage from the free radicals last a lot longer according to what I read.


MON 876 corn anyone?
I thought not.


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## talonracer (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm eating organic strawberries right now.

Delicious.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

The very worst of the carcinogens are in yon frying pan and grill.
Also hormesis is in play and we'll see a lot about that shortly.
When it gets too sterile there are negative effects.
Less ulcers these days - more esophagial cancer - not enough dirt in our food. 

Things like strawberries I'd say there is a good case for care but hell the "natural" moulds are literally killers.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

martman said:


> What is wrong with irradition? Simple. Irradiating food causes the molecules to vibrate. This vibration results in the release of electrons which stay in the food.


Heating food also causes molecules to vibrate. Do you cook stuff in the oven? Or on a BBQ? Frying pan? Maybe in a steamer? Unless you eat all your food raw, you are causing molecules to vibrate.

Welcome to Grade 7 science.


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

guytoronto said:


> Welcome to Grade 7 science.


That is a simplistic view and you know it. Can you be more condesending or less forthright. Yes cooking does indeed virbrate the molecules but not at the same rate. Free radicles are indeed created by cooking but mostly only when you burn the food (or the oil you are cooking it in). 
Quite frankly it sucks to argue with people who try to do their best to not understand you (or at least pretend to not understand). It should be the other way around.
Neither of us is this stupid so please lets get on with the discution.


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