# our vs or • US versus Brit • Roofs or rooves



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Every time I use the spell checker which I can't be bothered to change the favor versus favour issue comes up cluttering my Canj'n spelling with jaggy red warnings.rolleyes: 

It also bugs me that many of the older style tenses like swum and plurals like rooves instead of roofs are fading quickly even in fiction where you would think they would persist.

What's your opinion? - should we just drop the archiac forms and structures and also Americanize the spelling for the sake of efficiency?? Isn't something like hilite much more effective than hilight or highlight. Do you think that drift is inevitable esepcially given the speed of chat and forum posting creating a Darwinian environment in high gear for language evolution.

What are YOUR favourite peeves with NuSpel or words being lost or modified in today's language?
There is no question lots new are coming in but some are fading.  
Those you miss,......those of the new language you detest.

Wield thy pen, sirra.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Language is a fluid beast.
It moves with the times, else it becomes Latin.
then there is the "vernacular" vs. "learned language" debate.

My pet peeve is the de-accenting of non-English words.

foyer is verbalised as "fo-yerrrrrr"
filet is verbalised as "filettttt"
French Fries is verbalised as "Freedom Fries", but I digress....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macspectrum, a closet linguist!!! Your point that "Language is a fluid beast" is well made and accurate. Welcome to our side. However, I do pronounce "foyer" as "fo-yerrrrrr", complete with a New York City accent.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Macspectrum, a closet linguist!!!


OR one might say a "cunning linguist," but be careful how you say that....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I still recall the grief you directed my way for my use of non-Canadian spellings for words such as "labour", along with the use on non-metric measurements........................so, I shall call you whatever you want, Obi-wan.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

I yearn for the day when I read a Dr. G. post that uses the phrase; "an historic," or "an halibut" (with kudos to Monty Python) for that matter.

Then I would know my work is done.

As far as the "Obi-wan" bit. That was not my intention. Far from it.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macspectrum, I would utilize the phrase "an historic", as in "Macnutt voting NDP would be an historic day", but then use "I would show Macspectrum a history of the Mac computer". However, "an halibut" would not be a phrase I would utilize.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Macnutt voting NDP would be an historic day


Dr. G., you tease me.

BTW, macnutt voting NDP would be the day Hell freezes over....


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## FLYNSQRL (Aug 6, 2003)

The dumbing-down of America began long ago. We Canadians fought the good fight, but thanks to a new crop of illiterate media wags, we have pretty much lost the battle. I cringe, on a daily basis, at the myriad spelling and grammar errors spewed forth from mouths and minds of those we entrust to enlighten our sorry asses to the concerns of the day.

Since when did "quicker" become a word, I ask? This "word" is used not only by our low-foreheaded sportscasters, but "respected" journalists as well. Sadly, our media comes up with variations on words and meanings that would make George W. look like he held a PhD in English Language and Linguistics!

Warning to all - do not allow your children to watch the news without supervision - not for the graphic violence, but for the violence directed upon our language. <insert mock cringe here>

No wonder our teachers are having such a hard time getting throught to their students....hell, if Lloyd Robertson says it, it must be right!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

FLYNSQRL, sad but all too true. As one who teaches university teachers-in-training to be literacy teachers, I have seen this influence take hold in my 27 years here at Memorial. Granted, language evolves, but it does so in both positive and negative directions re the semantic base of this language.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Oh, and my biggest language pet peeve.

The use of "good" in place of "well."

"We/They/I/You played good."
used by athletes and broadcasters alike.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Amen, brother. I am forever using indirect instruction to "correct" my students misuse of these two words. I use the correct context and they STILL misuse the two words.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Oh my "Let loose the dogs of words!"

MacSpectrum vs Dr. G  

••
FlySqrl ( by the way I had one as a pet for years ) errata

IS it so regrettable or are we being dinosaurs bellowing as the earth changes under our feet.
Of what significance is the spelling or is the communication itself the higher goal to keep in view. ( phonetic spelling and/or whole language advocates may step in here  

I'm not speaking in terms of acedemia but in terms of social functioning. With current speed of communications you can see especially online the shortening and speeding up ( phone text in particular). Why is this regrettable??

Chinese philosophers developed an entire code of condensed "principals" - we would call them memes and they would insert these codes into their discussions and writings to speed up the process of thought and reduce the obviously tedious writing procedure.
Pictographic Chinese makes this easier as many "words" are synthesis ( hey what's the plural of synthesis - synthesi







) of other words and even the original image from which the word derives ( house in particular I believe).

So is our current short forming net for internet, etc any different.? There was an interesting note on another thread about how much we can comprehend from just a few indicators - the spelling was wild but the information was easily read. Are we being anal about spelling??

Just another thought, I wonder how much the language type and style affects a peoples progress. Japan has 3 alphabets which suggests they have dealt with the problem of their language in an interesting manner.

How much does the middle eastern right to left style hinder them in the modern world???

Will we see a Lingua Universa develop in the next 100 years, thousand years???

If more than one mouse are mice.
Why is more than one house not hice?
How do these things develop.







 

Let's hear your fav Englishism or as well if you speak another language some words that are "missing" from English that work well in that language.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Back in the "days of yore" when I went to university, my professors were allowed to, and did, discount grades for reports/essays,papers for using poor grammar.

A more direct method of "deduction."


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macspectrum, this too happened to my generation of students, but I feel that it would be counter-productive to do this with my students. Sad.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Dr. G.,
You could warn your students that you would be discounting grades for poor grammar, on say, one small essay. See if their work changes.

Call it an experiment.

Something old may become new again.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I love language and the strange things you can do with it. As a columnist, I use my own particular brand of the language to make points that readers would never grasp without an unusual presentation. I love playing with words. For example: Prepositions are not words to end sentences with. And don't start a sentence with a conjunction. It is wrong to ever split an infinitive.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macspectrum, I thought that you were making reference to the spoken misuse of language.


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## FLYNSQRL (Aug 6, 2003)

Growing up with a family of journalists and writers, (Peg Atwood is a cousin), the importance of language and its proper use was not only paramount, but INGRAINED.

Maybe I'm getting too old. Too old to "go with the flow". Too old to have to bother to think "what does he/she mean" when absorbing a spoken or written "new wave" word or phrase. But wait a minute, why should I have to bend over and spread 'em?

I feel more and more disenfranchised every day. I feel resentful that I should have to dissect a statement, phrase or word in an effort to grasp the intended meaning. After all, *I* follow the rules of the English language, in all its idiosyncratic glory.

Methinks McLuhan's global village is to blame for this mess! All the world's languages are slowly diverging into one mega-language.

My Mac speaks binary and only binary. Thank goodness no one can take screw that up.....or can they?


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## FLYNSQRL (Aug 6, 2003)

Dr G. -

My youngest son is in 3rd year at U of T. Just this week, one of his profs gave the class a project involving the writing of a simple essay. The class had to use an opening paragraph that he (the professor) wrote. I read this paragaph, not knowing that the professor had written it, and just freaked! Aghast, I had thought my son had written it and when I confronted him, he explained that he HAD to include this paragraph in his essay because his professor wrote it and it had to be used to introduce the essay.

This prof is in his sixties and should know better, after all, he obtained a PhD *somehow*!

This illustrates that the problem is endemic, not just limited to the younger generations....

_Dr. G wrote: Macspectrum, this too happened to my generation of students, but I feel that it would be counter-productive to do this with my students. Sad. _


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> All the world's languages are slowly diverging into one mega-language.


Quick. get that Esperanto dictionary out of the garage sale bin!!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

FLYNSQRL, while I advocate "losing" the red pen to bleed over assignments, I do stress that my students make sense in what they write. Thus, if their essays do not clearly make a point, regardless of the spelling and grammar, then it is not graded highly. I tell them that I am able to overlook misspelled words, but an incorrect use of grammar makes it difficult to understand the underlying message one is trying to make.


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## FLYNSQRL (Aug 6, 2003)

Dr. Gee - 

So, you have gone over to the other side, eh?  

My eldest son is a U of T -trained (5 yrs.) teacher, now plying his trade in Teslin, YT (he is a specialist in teaching native youth suffering from FAS). All of his profs stressed the importance of grammar and spelling in both test/exam and assignment scenarios, and as a parent I am thankful for this.

My wife has worked at U of T's School of Continuing Studies, English as a Second Language department for over 25 years now, and their program is producing students who can speak and write English more fluently than native Canadians! Seriously! A sad state of affairs. There is no wonder that home schooling has grown by leaps and bounds in Canada!

No offense intended, but some intelligencia whom I am familiar with have stated that a professor who does not insist upon proper use of the language from his/her charges is just plain lazy, and that educators should fight to instill the belief that language is power...that language allows for the blossoming of one's intellect.

Some profs even want their 2nd and 3rd year students to "peer review" each other's essays! Again, this to me is just plain laziness - but this is another topic for another time....

Are there many profs in your circle who have adopted the same attitude (that expectaitons of proper spelling and grammar from students' work have fallen below the horizon)?

I have yet to read a scientific paper that contains glaring grammatic and spelling errata, and I am surely not looking forward to the inevitable. Surely all academic disciplines will suffer in the end.

I am hungry and tired so please forgive my ramblings....time to turn off the computer and make dinner....


_FLYNSQRL, while I advocate "losing" the red pen to bleed over assignments, I do stress that my students make sense in what they write. Thus, if their essays do not clearly make a point, regardless of the spelling and grammar, then it is not graded highly. I tell them that I am able to overlook misspelled words, but an incorrect use of grammar makes it difficult to understand the underlying message one is trying to make._


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

FLYNSQURL, oftentimes, my students submit their work printed off, with the use of spellchecks. However, many of my online students do not have access to spellchecks when we are on WebCT. Thus, they might misspell certin words inadvertantly. Thus, my "expectations" are high, but I have understanding for these miscues. "Are there many profs in your circle who have adopted the same attitude (that expectaitons of proper spelling...."


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

My niece: "So he goes, how much ram you got?"

I asked her "what did you went when he goed".


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macello, how old is your neice? Age does play a factor in one's ability to utilize grammer in an expected manner.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

At the time her age was 15. Now a smart young journalist in New York, she will still use this quirk when talking to peers.

The use of "go" in place of "say" is very common in Toronto amongst those aged between 9-25. Possibly, the action "goes" replacing the verbal "said" gives the exchange a more dramatic edge.

Could it be that the young'uns find adult correctness vacuous (duh ... as they say) enough to bring such license into common usage?

It hath it's charm .....


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## FLYNSQRL (Aug 6, 2003)

Dr. Gee -

Yeah, just like you I can inadvertantly mis-spell the odd word, especially online and when what I write is not critical, such as is the case in this forum _<"Thus, they might misspell certin words inadvertantly.">_.

I understand your conundrum with regard to online (WebCT as an example) learning and spelling, and with regard to word-processed assignments and spelling. However, I feel many profs/teachers are doing their charges a disservice by not demanding attention to detail in their work, be it their research, presentation, spelling, grammar.....

Remember when some said that computers would mark the end of penmanship? This reliance upon spell checkers (and quite likely grammar checkers as well) sounds like the death knell for literacy.....


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## FLYNSQRL (Aug 6, 2003)

Dr. Gee -

Yeah, just like you I can inadvertantly mis-spell the odd word, especially online and when what I write is not critical, such as is the case in this forum _<"Thus, they might misspell certin words inadvertantly.">_.

I understand your conundrum with regard to online (WebCT as an example) learning and spelling, and with regard to word-processed assignments and spelling. However, I feel many profs/teachers are doing their charges a disservice by not demanding attention to detail in their work, be it their research, presentation, spelling, grammar.....

Remember when some said that computers would mark the end of penmanship? This reliance upon spell checkers (and quite likely grammar checkers as well) sounds like the death knell for literacy.....


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Dr. G.,
Are 1st students at your university required to write, and pass, an English proficienty test?

Again, back in the "days of yore", way back before electricity, we had to pass such a test with an 80% grade counting as a pass.

If memory serves, students were required to pass this exam within their 1st scholastic year or face dismissal from the university.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macspectrum, yes, there are literacy and math proficiency tests for entry to MUN. The literacy tests are waived for foreign students, which is a contentious issue for many undergrads.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Well, the foreign students pay a hefty price to attend universities in Canada and MUN (and others) doesn't want to turn away those big dollars.
Yeah, I know, I'm cynical.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macspectrum, they are to pass a TEFL test in their home countries prior to being admitting, and these grades need to be above a certain standard. However, there is no way some of these students have scored as high as their test scores indicate. Their English is poorer than my French, and there is NO way I am able to function in French, let alone attend university courses. So, yes, I think that higher tuition fees are a factor. Still, these students add to the multicultural culture of St.John's, which I feel is a positive aspect of having large populations of foreign students. As well, most, if not all, are the hardest working students of all here on campus, in that they realize their shortcomings re English, and they value their education.


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