# Ontario Judges Can Now "Amend Up" Speeding Tickets In Court



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

> You could call it the antigravity principle of Ontario traffic courts.
> 
> The police officer who stops you for speeding might decide to give you a break, lowering your clocked speed and potential fine.
> 
> ...


TheStar.com | GTA | What an officer gives, a judge can take away.

I wonder if this will actually deter anyone from attempting to fight a speeding charge.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

i don't get this.... the officer writes 115 km/h on the ticket, but then waltzes into court and says they were actually going 130 km/h?

isn't his credibility down the toilet at that point?


----------



## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

i-rui said:


> isn't his credibility down the toilet at that point?


No. The officer never claimed the defendant was doing 115KM/Hr; he simply reduced the offense to a lower speed. Doing so isn't denying that he was originally nailed for doing 130KM/Hr. Doing a speeder a favor -- reducing the fine -- is not considering denying the original offense. (AKAIK.) I would assume the officer's report would state that said defendant was clocked doing 130, but was reduced as a favor to just 115KM/Hr. (Both the original offense and the favor I would presume would appear on the written report.)


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Well if the discrepancy was documented with proof then i don't have a problem with it, but the article seems to suggest differently :

"The case was set in motion after Robert Winlow was caught on Dec. 6, 2006, driving 130 km/h in a 100 km/h zone of Highway 400. Although the officer wrote Winlow was doing 115 km/h, Winlow opted for a trial rather than pay the fine.

At trial, the officer testified that Winlow was driving at 130 km/h, but Justice of the Peace Hazel Hodson-Walker refused to amend the charge as requested by the prosecution. She convicted Winlow of driving 115 km/h, a decision upheld by an Ontario Court judge."

I have a problem with the way it's written above. If the officer came into court and said he was actually going 130km/h he should have irrefutable evidence to back it up. I'd hate to see some officers begin to change the speed on the ticket because they're pissed at being called into court.


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I haven't had a speeding ticket in like........forever, but I sure can't remember an option on the ticket for actual speed clocked and speed to be used to calculate the fine.

I always thought the cops wrote you up at a somewhat slower speed to cover their ass so the calibration of their equipment, angle of the radar or laser gun - these types of things wouldn't be called into question.

How does a policemen today prove that the reading he got was actually that of your car? Is there a picture of the car in question that goes with the speed reading like the old photo radar?


----------



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

What a dumb case. Dude spent all that time fighting some ticket he deserved, and he wasn't even going to get points or anything because the cop scrubbed 15km/h off. The police generally do write down the actual speed, and show the "discount", and it is accepted practice, since really, a 15km/h over fine is nothing, compared to the massive costs of 30km/h, which is not only a fine, but significant demerit points, as well as reducing your insurance rating and costing you large the rest of your insured life...

As for the thread title - this has always been accepted practice, with lots of plea bargaining and reduction of fines in order to free up court resources. Of course, some dumb ass is bound to show up without a real case and get burned in the process because they think they can get away with something crazy.

For instance, when I was in court last month, there was this chick that was there fighting her ticket. They caught her doing 235km/h in a 50km/h zone, which really, your nailed. Most of the people in the court room wanted to know what kind of car she had, because on the road she was on, you'd pretty much have to have some drag racing equipment, or some tuner high on nitro. Well, her case consisted of saying that she couldn't have been going 235km/h because her speedometers only goes to 180km/h - she even had pictures of the speedometer. Needless to say, it was one dumb case which basically annoyed the judge.

However, it is good that there is actually a real judgement to fit current practice; though it is too bad that cops are no longer supposed to be dishing out fines for street racing and going 50km/h over...


----------



## uPhone (Jun 29, 2008)

For the record,

I got a speeding ticket for doing 90 in a 60 zone. The cop reduced it to 10 over - the tickets do actually have a little box called "Reduced From" (where, in my case, it said 90 km/h).


----------



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

uPhone said:


> I got a speeding ticket for doing 90 in a 60 zone. The cop reduced it to 10 over - the tickets do actually have a little box called "Reduced From" (where, in my case, it said 90 km/h).


*BOGGLE* 

This entire thread -- and the concept behind it -- is *completely* unknown in the US. A *box* on the ticket where the cop *reduces* the speed you're being fined for so you pay *less*??

(shakes head in wonderment)


----------



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

chas_m said:


> *BOGGLE*
> 
> This entire thread -- and the concept behind it -- is *completely* unknown in the US. A *box* on the ticket where the cop *reduces* the speed you're being fined for so you pay *less*??
> 
> (shakes head in wonderment)


It's just like plea bargaining - and is used all over the US, though not convenient like a check box on a ticket. I see no problem with it, and I think that the dude that protested a ticket that had so much speed sliced off is just a dumb ass. The fine for 15km/h over is trivial and does not show up on a driver's record, while 30km/h over is significant in both the fine levied (which is really nothing either), but also the heaping on on demerit points and the fact that one gets knocked down one insurance grade, which will cost probably $150-200 per year, for at least 6 years, in Ontario. Dude should have just paid the trivial fine and moved on, because this will end up costing the dude at least $1500 in the end, perhaps more if they can't get a job as a courier or delivery man because of an unclean driving abstract. Not to mention the cost of the "loser pays" court fees...

The last time I was in court, I saw a number of dumb asses fragging themselves in such a manner, ending up paying at least double (plus the time off for court day), when they didn't have an argument at all.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

chas_m said:


> *BOGGLE*
> 
> This entire thread -- and the concept behind it -- is *completely* unknown in the US. A *box* on the ticket where the cop *reduces* the speed you're being fined for so you pay *less*??
> 
> (shakes head in wonderment)


I've never heard of it either, I think it must be an Ontario thing.


----------



## uPhone (Jun 29, 2008)

Well actually, what I 'hear' is that anyone's first speeding ticket is automatically reduced to 10 over. I guess that's not a law or anything, but it seems like every cop will drop the charge if it's a first offense, which it was for me. 

In fact, the cop literally said "Don't worry, I see that you've had your license for 6 months now and you haven't gotten a ticket up until now, that's pretty good!"


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

chas_m said:


> *BOGGLE*
> 
> This entire thread -- and the concept behind it -- is *completely* unknown in the US. A *box* on the ticket where the cop *reduces* the speed you're being fined for so you pay *less*??
> 
> (shakes head in wonderment)


Yeah, generally speaking, if the cop doesn't reduce it a bit, it's because a) you are being a dink, b) the cop is in a bad mood, or c) all of the above.

I see it pragmatically--bigger fine and bigger penalties (e.g, demerit points) the more likely someone is going to fight it. But if it's a small enough ticket to warrant a fine but there are no points, then someone is more likely to just pay it and be done with the whole thing.

Though mind you, if you pay the ticket, you have a conviction which counts against your insurance--doesn't matter if there are points or not. (And car insurance is ridiculously high in Ontario.) Most insurers will ignore 1 ticket in a 3-year period, but 2 tickets are a problem... though they change their policies on this quite frequently.

It's also been long rumoured that there are quotas in Ontario for speeding and parking tickets issued... if they can make it more likely that you will pay the ticket, then they make better use of their cash-grab.


----------



## uPhone (Jun 29, 2008)

Sonal said:


> Yeah, generally speaking, if the cop doesn't reduce it a bit, it's because a) you are being a dink, b) the cop is in a bad mood, or c) all of the above.
> 
> I see it pragmatically--bigger fine and bigger penalties (e.g, demerit points) the more likely someone is going to fight it. But if it's a small enough ticket to warrant a fine but there are no points, then someone is more likely to just pay it and be done with the whole thing.
> 
> ...


My uncle is a cop in Toronto. I asked him if they have quotas to fill for tickets and he said definitely not. Cops do however get paid extra if the person ticketed decides to bring the ticket to court (they get paid extra for their time spent in court - which brings me to my next point, if you are going to fight a ticket solely on the hope that the cop doesn't show up, don't count on it. They get paid extra and WILL be there unless of course they have their own emergency to tend to)


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

uPhone said:


> My uncle is a cop in Toronto. I asked him if they have quotas to fill for tickets and he said definitely not. Cops do however get paid extra if the person ticketed decides to bring the ticket to court (they get paid extra for their time spent in court - which brings me to my next point, if you are going to fight a ticket solely on the hope that the cop doesn't show up, don't count on it. They get paid extra and WILL be there unless of course they have their own emergency to tend to)


My cousin is a cop and started out as a parking cop (as most do) and they DEFINITELY DO have quotas. hehe.


----------

