# Vegetarianism



## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

*.*

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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

I can't fathom a meat-less diet.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

YouTube - Arrogant Worms - Carrot Juice is Murder

I have waited so long for an excuse to post that link.


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

John Clay said:


> I can't fathom a meat-less diet.


Agreed.


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## MrsMime (Sep 8, 2008)

MazterCBlazter said:


> After over 15 years on the eat everything diet, contemplating gradually going back to a moderate vegetarian diet.
> 
> lacto-ovo pescatarian (dairy, eggs, and fish)
> 
> ...


I've been "lacto-ovo pescatarian" for three years now. It actually started out as a bet (my friend bet me in the midde of summer that I couldn't make it to Thanksgiving without eating meat even once and I disagreed) and after the bet was completed and my 200 dollars in pocket, I just couldn't stomach beef or pork or any meat for that matter (except fish) anymore. I had no desire to eat it. And still don't. I can't say it's benefited me because I don't feel different then I did when I did eat meat, but it definitely hasn't de-benefited me either.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Seefood Diet Here! 

I see food I eat it.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Ahem . . . 



> Eating Veggies Shrinks Your Brain
> 
> MELBOURNE: Scientists have discovered that going veggie could be bad for your brain-with those on a meat-free diet six times more likely to suffer brain shrinkage.
> 
> ...


Eating veggies shrinks the brain-Health/Sci-The Times of India


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## fozy (Jul 18, 2006)

SINC, that post doesn't apply to this situation though. The original poster stated it's an 'lacto-ovo pescatarian (dairy, eggs, and fish)' and your post states 'the best sources of the vitamin are meat, particularly liver, milk and fish'. The the lacto-ovo pescatarian diet _includes_ dairy and fish.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

This thread is a lie!

Really, what is it with people who eat fish and call it vegetarianism.

It's like driving a car and calling it walking. (Fine, it's early; what's _your_ analogy?)


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## Rock Lobster (May 15, 2002)

I'm a Meatatarian. It's a personal choice. You have to commit to it, you know.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

I was an ovo-lacto vegetarian for about 2 years a long time ago. This was agreeable to me, except I really missed having chicken. Since then, I have given it up, but no longer eat pork or other red meat. I also enjoy fruits and vegetables more than the average person, and frequently enjoy meatless meals. Vegetarian eating has never really left me.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

I guess I've been a sort of accidental 'lacto-ovo pescatarian', I just don't like red meat very much. This is not out of any sick PETA conviction and I have no quarrel with meatatarian or hunters or anything like that. I just find eating red meat makes me feel crappy - I feel better if I stay away from red meat.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## CanadaRAM (Jul 24, 2005)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I hop that not too many burgers slip through.


A diet excessively high in rabbit food would make me hop, too.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

I like vegetarians. It means more meat for me.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Rock Lobster (May 15, 2002)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I still haven't seen a rabbit eat fish eggs or consume dairy products.


What about them there milk chocolate rabbits?


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

SINC said:


> Ahem . . .
> 
> 
> Eating veggies shrinks the brain-Health/Sci-The Times of India


Ahem ... to speak up for the vegetarians, the headline of that article is misleading. The problem that they reported is about a lack of vitamin B12. This won't be a problem for vegetarians who eat dairy and eggs but not getting enough B12 could be a problem for vegans. Many vegans take B12 as well as calcium supplements to make up for this.

The headline is also misleading because it isn't eating the veggies that causes the B12 deficiency, it is eating clean veggies that causes this. B12 is synthesized organically in nature by bacteria. Animals get this bacteria and the B12 by grazing. When we eat the meat of these vegetarian animals we get the B12. 

Vegetarians might also get B12 from nature by eating plants without washing them much, but most people would not want to do this nor would they have the opportunity to do this because they buy their veggies from stores. I'm only guessing here, but I would surmise if you grow your own organic veggies and don't scrub them excessively you might get natural B12 that way.

B12 deficiency and the associated brain shrinkage that occurs was also found in meat eaters who drink too much beer or are overweight, as was reported in the article. But the headline writers chose to emphasize and distort the anti-vegetarian angle of the research, which many people who don't do their own research will find and post in internet forums. This often happens when scientific subjects reach the realm of the media and internet.

So .... ahem.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Guess you folks missed the smilie.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

SINC said:


> Guess you folks missed the smilie.


You're so passive-aggressive.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Yep, that's me.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)




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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Since moving back in time (to the Maritimes) from the West coast, it's been much harder for us to avoid meat, but my wife and I have been fairly consistent about not eating meat for decades.

There is now mountains of evidence that the less meat you eat the healthier you will be (presuming you are still eating a balanced diet, which certainly requires no meat). But my primary motivation has been to reduce my environmental impact (if health was the only reason, I'd still eat a lot of fish, because I love it, but the world's fisheries are so badly managed, and most edible fish are so high on the food chain, I can only justify eating fish on the rarest of occasions).

I've often found it interesting to consider that, if someone were to develop a drug you could take that would reduce your chances of getting most cancers by up to 40% they'd win a Nobel prize, and it would become the basis of a multi-billion-dollar industry overnight, but the fact that cutting meat out of your diet has exactly this effect remains buried in obscure academic journals (Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1987).

Between the undeniable health benefits, and the dramatic reduction in environmental impact, reducing your meat consumption is really a no-brainer.

Then, of course there's the ethical argument. Regardless of how you justify it, there can be no doubt that eating meat causes unnecessary suffering and death of sentient creatures. Philosophically, I consider this a moral 'expense'.

But having evolved from ancestors who a) had little prospect of living beyond 40, and b) would never encounter surpluses of proteins and fats (or sugars and salt, for that matter), we have an almost insatiable appetite for foods rich in these nutrients, despite the fact that they're not really very good for us in the quantities we are now accustomed to (and can, in fact, be very bad for us as we age).

For me this is a see-saw battle between my hedonism and my concern for the environment and philosophical commitment to limiting the harm I do to others around me. So I've tried to build the habit of not eating meat, but occasionally enjoy a meat-based meal (especially when visiting), and also frequently indulge in fresh oysters (they're low on the trophic pyramid, and have no complex nervous system, so I don't feel bad about eating them).

Cheers.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

bryanc said:


> ..................... and have no complex nervous system, so I don't feel bad about eating them).


Geez! if that's the only restriction we can sit down to a nice steaming bowl of politician stew......



> INGREDIENTS:
> 
> 1 pound cubed politician
> 1 to 2 tablespoons vegetable oil
> ...


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I've never understood why vegetarianism exists, and now why it's subdivided into so many little religions (pescatarian? yeah, I think it's next to the Lutheran church down the street).

Eat a MODERATE amount of the foods you enjoy, and balance excess with exercise.

Where in the above sentence is the need to introduce complications?


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

You mean just because you don't understand it, it shouldn't exist?

Explain gravity. Can't? Okay, take a step off this tall building.

Do you really only think that vegetarianism is a health choice, and not a moral one? You may have to move out of BC (the age, not the province).




chas_m said:


> I've never understood why vegetarianism exists, and now why it's subdivided into so many little religions (pescatarian? yeah, I think it's next to the Lutheran church down the street).
> 
> Eat a MODERATE amount of the foods you enjoy, and balance excess with exercise.
> 
> Where in the above sentence is the need to introduce complications?


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I didn't realize that vegetarianism was a religion. 

Anyway, I've been vegetarian for 19 years now, and prior to that I ate very little meat--both my parents are vegetarian, so we seldom had meat in the house. My mother has never eaten meat in her life, neither has anyone on her side of the family. My father has recently started introducing some fish into his diet, but he might have some once every few months or so. We all eat dairy and eggs, though my mother very seldom eats egg unless it is cooked into something like cake. (Some of her family does not eat eggs at all.)

B12 deficiency is not really a big issue, since your body stores it for long periods of time... depletion doesn't usually show up for 5-10 years or so. I did have a B12 deficiency for a little while, but I supplemented for a bit, and then made a greater effort to ensure that I consumed dairy or eggs regularly, and now it is gone. They are, however, showing links between B12 deficiency and stress, and the deficiency showed up when my life was in severe turmoil, so it's possible that it was less my diet and more my life at that time.

You need very little B12, but it is not absorbed well from supplements, so it is better to ensure that you get this from your diet. On the other hand, research hasn't found any problems with taking in too much B12 (your body simply excretes it) so there's very little harm in supplementing.

I also have occasional issues with low iron, but a big part of that is that I am female, and have a higher dietary requirement for iron. (i.e., non-vegetarian women often experience iron deficiency as well.) It's tricky to get enough of that in a vegetarian diet, and it's possible to take too much of an iron supplement, so that's something I work out with my doctor as needed. At the moment, my iron levels are fine.

Can't say what's it's done for me, since I've never really eaten meat regularly. I am healthy though. I eat a wide variety of foods, though I almost never eat tofu or those weird fake meat products. Under stress or when I'm low energy for whatever reason, I make an extra effort to consume more protein which seems to work out fine.

I've toyed with the idea of eating meat now and then (it would make travelling easier) but I have a hard time getting past the texture... it's feels too much like flesh, and for me, that's kind of a disturbing thing to chew on.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Why must there be a hamburger in the redflagdeals ad above this?


You have a Mac??

Turn them puppies off via Mac add-ons.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

HowEver said:


> Do you really only think that vegetarianism is a health choice, and not a moral one?


If you're vegetarian for moral reasons, you're wasting your time. You're certainly not saving any animals.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I'm doing it for health, discipline, self control as well as spiritual development reasons. Yogis and eastern spiritual masters have strong convictions about not eating flesh foods. They believe that it lowers their abilities and spiritual state.
> 
> A long time ago I was lacto ovo vegetarian, very lean and had super high energy and stamina. I want to be that way again. I could get by on 4 hours of sleep day after day, had a 27" waist and could bench press twice my bodyweight. I never seemed to get tired. I was just go go go.
> 
> ...


Power to the pescatarians!

Speaking of yogis...

They seem to be a selfish lot don't they? I mean, sitting around all day trying to get spiritually superior for what? Do they ever do anything for anyone else? Or is it always me, me, me?

Case in point. Remember the late magician/illusionist Doug Henning? Years ago during federal election time he was fronting some Canadian political group comprised of levitating yogis that claimed once elected they would solve all of our nation's problems by combining their meditative powers on the task. Question - why wouldn't they do this even if they didn't get elected? Kind of selfish in my opinion. Must have created some serious bad karma because as a result Doug's dead at 55. All that spiritual superiority seeking got him levitating but didn't help him with longevitating. But eat a Burger King Whopper and that's forever, at least that's what it feels like in the pit of your stomach. Know what I'm saying?


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Doug Henning and the Natural Law Party:

Thinking man's magician flirted with political career

Cool dude and if he really believed he could change Canada for the better through levitating (yogic flying) and meditation it couldn't have done any worse than what the last bunch has done.

That said, I still think they were selfish with their powers.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Back to vegetarianism...

Question:

If the ground in which the vegetables grow consists of meat eating human/animal matter and that human/animal matter nourishes the vegetables growing in the aforementioned ground then would this would create conflict for the vegetarian eating them since the vegetables in question have benefited from a direct connection to the meat eating human/animal?


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

It's really disconcerting to come across this thread after I've officially mastered the art of grilling meats on my BBQ.

It's also rather disconcerting to come across this thread realizing that I've yet to officially become a master at grilling fish on my BBQ.

I hate this thread!  

But I like chick peas, and pesto too! 

Oh, never mind.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

chas_m said:


> If you're vegetarian for moral reasons, you're wasting your time. You're certainly not saving any animals.


How does this follow? If I do not purchase a product, I reduce the market for that product, and therefore reduce the economic incentive for producing that product.

Obviously one persons decisions do not make a _detectable_ difference in the overall market, but, like voting, it does make a difference. Economic systems are emergent properties of _individual_ behaviour.

Cheers


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> Question:
> 
> If the ground in which the vegetables grow consists of meat eating human/animal matter... would this create conflict for the vegetarian


Not for a rational vegetarian.

One of the things I've often found puzzling about being vegetarian is the defensiveness/hostility it triggers in some non-vegetarians (not that I think you were being hostile or defensive, MACeinstein). I've also noticed that many people assume that if you're vegetarian, you must also be gay/lesbian, opposed to technology, a member of some new-age religion, a pacifist, and all kinds of other things.

Cheers.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> One of the things I've often found puzzling about being vegetarian is the defensiveness/hostility it triggers in some non-vegetarians...I've also noticed that many people assume that if you're vegetarian, you must also be gay/lesbian, opposed to technology, a member of some new-age religion, a pacifist, and all kinds of other things.


I support vegetarians in their choices, but am hostile to those who wish to limit mine by demanding that meat be made illegal for sale (a minority of them, for certain). 

On the other hand, I don't understand why vegetarians all wear caftans and sandals and refuse deodorant of any sort, but there you go.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

gwillikers said:


> It's really disconcerting to come across this thread after I've officially mastered the art of grilling meats on my BBQ.


There are some really great things you can do with the BBQ and veggies... Simple stuff like grilled portobello mushroom caps (use 'em like burgers) are good, but here's something I cooked on my BBQ last weekend that was great:


1 pound pizza dough
Extravirgin olive oil
fresh rosemary
coarse sea salt
minced garlic
1 shallot (chopped into rounds)
1/2 cup green grapes (halved)
1/2 cup red grapes (halved)

- Preheat BBQ, and soak hickory wood chips while preparing:

- roll out small pizza rounds, and spread olive oil on the upper surface.
- distribute grapes, cut side down, mixing red and green on each pizza.
- intersperse rounds of shallot
- sprinkle minced garlic, rosemary leaves and salt

Put wood chips in BBQ so they start smoking, lower heat so the bottoms of the pizzas don't burn, and cook with the cover closed to keep the smoke and heat in. Should be done in about 8 minutes.

Cheers


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Macfury said:


> On the other hand, I don't understand why vegetarians all wear caftans and sandals and refuse deodorant of any sort, but there you go.


:lmao:


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> Back to vegetarianism...
> 
> Question:
> 
> If the ground in which the vegetables grow consists of meat eating human/animal matter and that human/animal matter nourishes the vegetables growing in the aforementioned ground then would this would create conflict for the vegetarian eating them since the vegetables in question have benefited from a direct connection to the meat eating human/animal?


Actually this is a very good question. The scenario you describe is not al that far off the scenario around BSE, and if memory serves was indeed an hypothesis re: genesis of BSE early on.

If your veggies are "eating" meat, aren't you doing the same when you eat those veggies?


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I visited Henning's campaign riding office years ago in the hopes of getting a laugh, but the people there were so serious and well-meaning that I wound up feeling sorry for them instead.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> What is seldom mentioned among vegetarian advocates is that Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian.


The fools. I'd put it in all the literature.


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## MissGulch (Jul 20, 2005)

Macfury said:


> On the other hand, I don't understand why vegetarians all wear caftans and sandals and refuse deodorant of any sort, but there you go.


Steve Jobs is a vegetarian, and he doesn't wear that outfit, although he always seems to have the same pants and black turtleneck on. 

Your thinking is a bit retro, and most vegetarians have unplugged the lava lamp, hung up the love beads and gotten on with life in the 21st century.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

I just looked up "more free time than sense" in my dictionary of phrases, and I found this quotation:



Macfury said:


> I visited Henning's campaign riding office years ago in the hopes of getting a laugh, but the people there were so serious and well-meaning that I wound up feeling sorry for them instead.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

It must be disconcerting to go through the hassle of adhering to a vegetarian/organic diet in a world of meat eaters to reap the claimed health benefits only to get cancer and die in your 40s or 50s. I wonder how Linda McCartney felt about her extraordinary dietary efforts when she got the cancer diagnosis? Jobs too. He looks like hell these days though I'm sure stress could be a factor. I'm not convinced vegetarianism makes you any healthier than someone with a well balanced diet.

Cheers
MacGuiver


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## Irie Guy (Dec 2, 2003)

My wife and I have been ovo-lacto vegetarian for 17 years now. For us the choice is simply rooted in the fact that we choose not to eat animals, mammals, fish, reptiles, insects, etc etc etc. 

We never push our diet on anyone else nor expect them to change to ours. When we have company they will eat vegetarian in our house simply because thats what's in the cupboards. We do eat out occasionally and are not militant in choosing where we will eat. Again we simply choose what to and what not to eat. 

What always amazes me and I see it again throughout this thread is that it seems to me that the non vegetarians tend to get more militant in defense of their diets than the vegetarians do. Strange that.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Why the fuss?

Each to their own works just fine.

I eat far more veggies, dairy, fruit and eggs than I do meat, but having said that, I enjoy one serving of meat daily.

I strictly limit my daily meat intake portions to 4 ounces of any red meat, 6 ounces or less of chicken or 8 ounces or less of fish, depending on fillet size.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

MazterCBlazter said:


> There are many famous vegetarians:
> 
> famous vegetarians - Google Search
> 
> ...


Doug Hepburn, eh. I never met the man but I know the name because a good friend of mine, Wayne Kemp, trained with Doug at his gym in Vancouver. Spoke very highly of the man.

Wayne holds a few power-lifting records in Saskatchewan. Dude had crazy strength all his life. Didn't start power-lifting until he was in his 40's! A great man as well.

Wayne's records:

http://www.powerlifting.ca/sask/mens_spa_records.pdf


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

HowEver said:


> I just looked up "more free time than sense" in my dictionary of phrases, and I found this quotation:


Ha! It wasn't far out of my way, and at least I learned that yogic flying involves only bumping on one's butt and receiving a euphoric sensation--no flying around like Snoopy on his doghouse.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Snoopy in his dog dish?


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

Dr.G. said:


> Snoopy in his dog dish?


Snoopy is not a doxie..??..??


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Snoopy is a Beagle


Yeah, yeah. You know that, and I know that, but Dr.G. has this tunnel-doxie-vision of the world an' I'm jus' trying to yank his chain a little... 


.....one of the things I love about Dr.G.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

MissGulch said:


> Steve Jobs is a vegetarian, and he doesn't wear that outfit


You might want to check the battery in your sarcasm-detector, MissG.



MacGuiver said:


> It must be disconcerting to go through the hassle of adhering to a vegetarian/organic diet in a world of meat eaters to reap the claimed health benefits only to get cancer and die in your 40s or 50s.
> ...
> I'm not convinced vegetarianism makes you any healthier than someone with a well balanced diet.


I'd like to introduce you to the concept of "statistics". It's something we use in science a lot, and the fact that you're apparently unaware of this may have a lot to do with your inability to comprehend scientific data (such as that which shows that vegetarian diets are much healthier than meat-based diets).

Cheers


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bryanc said:


> I'd like to introduce you to the concept of "statistics". It's something we use in science a lot, and the fact that you're apparently unaware of this may have a lot to do with your inability to comprehend scientific data (such as that which shows that vegetarian diets are much healthier than meat-based diets).


I don't profess to be an expert on this type of health statistic. Does the record show that vegetarians live longer than omnivores, regardless of how much meat the omnivore eats? That is, is there a point where vegetarians and those who eat a limited amount of meat have equal outcomes, or does it merely compare all vegetarians, to all meat eaters, including meat gluttons?


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

bryanc said:


> 'd like to introduce you to the concept of "statistics". It's something we use in science a lot, and the fact that you're apparently unaware of this may have a lot to do with your inability to comprehend scientific data (such as that which shows that vegetarian diets are much healthier than meat-based diets).


I've written about this a number of times...... XX) 

The general public's grasp of stats is so dismal as to endanger their health.... 

One needs a basic spectrum of nutrients and trace elements. How one gets them is of little concern (veg or meat or whatever) as long as one gets them.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> I don't profess to be an expert on this type of health statistic. Does the record show that vegetarians live longer than omnivores, regardless of how much meat the omnivore eats? That is, is there a point where vegetarians and those who eat a limited amount of meat have equal outcomes, or does it merely compare all vegetarians, to all meat eaters, including meat gluttons?


I can predict that vegetarians wouldn't live longer than omnivores if there is ever a food shortage beejacon 

Seriously...

Reminds me of the movie "Alive" (I believe that's the name). The plane full of students crashes into a snow covered mountain and ultimately they go cannibal in order to survive. I wonder how many strict vegetarian diets would be set aside under conditions such as those? Can one's conviction to a diet be more powerful than the instinct for survival? Hmmm...


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I don't profess to be an expert on this type of health statistic. Does the record show that vegetarians live longer than omnivores, regardless of how much meat the omnivore eats? That is, is there a point where vegetarians and those who eat a limited amount of meat have equal outcomes, or does it merely compare all vegetarians, to all meat eaters, including meat gluttons?


Good question. I'd have to check the current literature to see if more recent data has drawn this into question, but back in the late '80s, the correlative studies (which were corrected for socioeconomic, genetic, geographic and lots of other variables) showed benefits for all reductions in meat consumption (i.e. there was no point at which diminishing returns for removing meat from the diet were found).

The mechanistic studies (looking at the biochemistry of why meat is bad for us) have shed some light on this (for example, cooking meat produces small amounts of carcinogenic compounds, and one's exposure to toxins in one's diet is increased in meat-eaters due to reduced peristalsis after eating meat). But it appears to be a complex of many factors.

From an individual health POV, ignoring the environmental and ethical issues, the less meat you eat the better, with no meat being the best. But that has to be balanced against your enjoyment of food, social and economic pressures to eat meat, and convenience.

Cheers


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> I wonder how many strict vegetarian diets would be set aside under conditions such as those?


All but the irrational ones. Obviously starving is worse for you than eating meat.

As for cannibalism, I think most people would have to be *very* hungry to go that far, but I also expect that most of us would do so rather than die.

Cheers


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

bryanc said:


> As for cannibalism, I think most people would have to be *very* hungry to go that far, but I also expect that most of us would do so rather than die.


Donner. Survival of the fittest. If you need to eat, you find a way....... We ARE, after all, at the top of the food chain. We can eat anything we want, regardless of their feeling otherwise...


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I think you'd have to separate other lifestyle choices as well. Is a vegetarian more likely to make other choices perceived as healthy regarding nutrition and exercise for example?

From an environmental standpoint, Cornell university conducted an interesting study showing that producing vegetables, a little dairy and a little meat are the most efficient use of available agricultural land. Meat and dairy are produced on marginal land, while other crops, such as fruit and vegetables require high quality land:

Cornell Chronicle: Diets and NY's ag footprint


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I can’t vouch for the credentials of the author, but my research leads me to believe he knew what he was writing about in this report by Stephen Byrnes, PhD, RNCP.

It is very lengthy, but well worth the read to understand some of the dangers of total vegetarianism.



> The Evolution of a Myth
> Along with the unjustified and unscientific saturated fat and cholesterol scares of the past several decades has come the notion that vegetarianism is a healthier dietary option for people. It seems as if every health expert and government health agency is urging people to eat fewer animal products and consume more vegetables, grains, fruits and legumes. Along with these exhortations have come assertions and studies supposedly proving that vegetarianism is healthier for people and that meat consumption is associated with sickness and death. Several authorities, however, have questioned these data, but their objections have been largely ignored.
> As we shall see, many of the vegetarian claims cannot be substantiated and some are simply false and dangerous. There are benefits to vegetarian diets for certain health conditions, and some people function better on less fat and protein, but, as a practitioner who has dealt with several former vegetarians and vegans (total vegetarians), I know full well the dangerous effects of a diet devoid of healthful animal products. It is my hope that all readers will more carefully evaluate their position on vegetarianism after reading this paper.


Myths and Truths About Vegetarianism


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

Macfury said:


> I think you'd have to separate other lifestyle choices as well.


There were literally dozens of studies looking at this published (an entire issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 1987 was filled with them). I didn't read them all, but every conceivable variable (including exercise) was controlled for in some of them. But all of that is correlative. Now we know many of the mechanisms (for example, excess protein in the diet blocks calcium uptake, causing a lot of the osteoporosis we see in developed countries but not in countries where they're too poor to eat meat all the time).



> From an environmental standpoint, Cornell university conducted an interesting study showing that producing vegetables, a little dairy and a little meat are the most efficient use of available agricultural land. Meat and dairy are produced on marginal land, while other crops, such as fruit and vegetables require high quality land:
> 
> Cornell Chronicle: Diets and NY's ag footprint


That's interesting. I haven't seen that particular study, but I'm not surprised that from a land-use standpoint there are resources that can be extracted by grazers that are otherwise not accessible.

It doesn't change the fact that from an energetic standpoint, consuming at lower trophic levels requires less input energy to start with. Since we can't photosynthesize ourselves, we have to eat something. But eating 100 calories worth of plant-based food requires a net primary investment of about 10x less than eating 100 calories worth of tissue from an animal that ate plants. That 10-fold increase happens at each trophic level, so eating a 100 calorie salmon steak probably represents millions of calories worth of photosynthesis.

Cheers


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

SINC said:


> It is very lengthy, but well worth the read to understand some of the dangers of total vegetarianism.


Not only very lengthy, but the valid points are hard to find among all the factual and logical errors.

Here's a rebutting article based on more recent and diverse research.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Funny, there's a thread on RFD now about unhealthy vegetarian food and it points to the fatty deep-fried Indian cuisine.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

SINC said:


> I can’t vouch for the credentials of the author, but my research leads me to believe he knew what he was writing about in this report by Stephen Byrnes, PhD, RNCP.
> 
> It is very lengthy, but well worth the read to understand some of the dangers of total vegetarianism.
> 
> Myths and Truths About Vegetarianism





bryanc said:


> Not only very lengthy, but the valid points are hard to find among all the factual and logical errors.
> 
> Here's a rebutting article based on more recent and diverse research.


Note the addendum in the rebuttal. The anti-vegetarian Dr. Byrnes died of a stroke a few years ago at a young age.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Anytime someone mentions cannibalism I think of the under-rated film The Big Bus, in which a bus driver has been ostracized for getting trapped in the mountains on a winter bus trip. Half the passengers die, but he gains 10 pounds.


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## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

I prefer the delicious indie comedy of Eating Raoul.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

There was also that British film, unsubtly titled, _Eat the Rich_.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Gwillikers is still a bus driver, I used to be one of them...


Then you would know if it was true.


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## PoliceDog (May 1, 2008)

Irie Guy said:


> "....it seems to me that the non vegetarians tend to get more militant in defense of their diets than the vegetarians do...."


Which is just the opposite of what happens when Mac fanatics square off against Windows users!  

Me? I'm just proud of myself for reducing my formerly irresponsible sodium intake by 90% and my junk food intake by over 95% since being diagnosed with Cushing's Syndrome three months ago.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

PoliceDog said:


> Me? I'm just proud of myself for reducing my formerly irresponsible sodium intake by 90% and my junk food intake by over 95% since being diagnosed with Cushing's Syndrome three months ago.


That's a tough call. I'm glad you're bringing yourself to make those changes.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Survival conditions are not the same as daily diet conditions.
> 
> After away from the survival situation, go back to regular diet, not deep fried David and baked Barbara.


HowEver mentioned the possibility of vegetarianism being a "moral" choice for some.

So if someone morally chooses to not eat meat but circumstances become dire and it's "eat meat or die", for example, then it would be okay to go against your moral beliefs just until the danger has passed? Interesting...


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I once heard G. Gordon Liddy being set-up for some stupid question in which it was clear a phone-in caller was setting up a circumstance in which Liddy had to say he would kill his own son. About a quarter way through the exercise, he just told the guy flat-out that eventually he could raise the stakes to some point (New York to be blown up by thermo-nuclear device if son not killed) where he would agree that it was better to kill his son. 

Same with vegeterians choosing a bit of meat in case of starvation. Under extreme circumstances either you will or you won't, but I don't believe it cuts into anyone's arguments supporting dietary choice.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

MazterCBlazter said:


> *To me the objective is to make the best choice with the circumstances at hand.* If I'm hungry and burgers are all that is available at the time, it will do. If fish or an omelette was available, I'd take that instead. Maybe I'd just eat the potatoes and salad. Who knows. I'm not going to beat myself up if I can't follow it one day or one meal. The big picture is what matters.
> 
> It is possible for most to have enough control over their life that they can follow things like dietary choices. Being stranded on a plane in a mountain top is a very rare and extreme occurrence that few prepare for when they go on a flight.


Now we're getting to the meat of the issue - thank-you.

Bottomline - vegetarianism is a choice that is available only to those who have that option and I think it's safe to say that on a global scale that those people are in a very small minority. If you can choose a diet that is morally correct then obviously you've got more choice and a greater supply of food than most. Sweet deal if you can get it


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> I once heard G. Gordon Liddy being set-up for some stupid question in which it was clear a phone-in caller was setting up a circumstance in which Liddy had to say he would kill his own son. About a quarter way through the exercise, he just told the guy flat-out that eventually he could raise the stakes to some point (New York to be blown up by thermo-nuclear device if son not killed) where he would agree that it was better to kill his son.
> 
> Same with vegeterians choosing a bit of meat in case of starvation. Under extreme circumstances either you will or you won't, but I don't believe it cuts into anyone's arguments supporting dietary choice.


The good of the many vs the good of the one.

Fine. But if a person is going to make a conviction based their belief of "right and wrong" hopefully they could be more forth coming about what it really entails. For example:

"I'm a vegetarian and I believe that it's morally wrong to eat meat because I do not want other living creatures to die in order to keep myself alive... Except if I'm starving or any other circumstance where I need to put myself first."


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

MazterCBlazter said:


> I'm considering going lacto ovo pescetarian (eggs, fish, and dairy) as a means to improve myself and my health. I am not doing it for any moral reason.
> 
> Some people do it for moral reasons. It is not my reason for it.
> 
> ...


Please clarify what it is that you find ridiculous about my statements and questions.

Pointing out that you are fortunate that you can choose a diet, is that a ridiculous statement? Maybe you assumed that most choose their diets as opposed to taking what is given?

EDIT: BTW, I should clarify that I was making a general statement about diet choice in my previous post and never meant to suggest that you're veg diet is a moral choice.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

It's great how some people criticize the moral choices of others without remotely understanding the concepts involved and by sounding so morally superior themselves.

Lots of people don't want to eat animals, and have absolutely no intention of forcing that belief on others.

Telling vegetarians they should go eat some meat because they are making a poor choice is kind of like telling a porn star to get laid once in a while: interesting, but unnecessary.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

If a person chooses not to eat meat because they deem it morally wrong then whether or not they attempt to force this belief on others or not is besides the point. The point is, how can one's dietary choices become a moral issue when it's obvious that there could come a time when you have no choice or the alternative is too extreme for the individual to consider? It doesn't make sense.

MacFury mentioned the question posed to Liddy. Here again, if Liddy believed it's morally wrong to commit murder (his son) then how does he justify stating later that there are exceptions to his moral belief (if in fact it was his belief - I don't know)? 

Maybe there is no absolute right or wrong with regards to anything? If so, then making decisions about what one eats based on the idea of it being morally right is pretty thin since in reality circumstances will dictate one's beliefs and behaviour, not their morals.

Pam Anderson finds herself stranded in a remote cabin during a blizzard. The only thing she has to keep herself warm is a fur coat. The only thing to eat is beef jerky...


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

I occasionally eat vegetarian dishes that taste good. I eat far less red meat than I used to because I have trouble digesting it - chicken works better. I have no ideological commitment one way or the other - I just go with what works for me.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> Vote Green Party


Now, that would really be a wasted vote!


> Do your best to make your life a positive constructive effort.


Like most platitudes, basically free of semantic content.


> Frank Ogden: "A University Degree causes brain damage"


Sounds like sour grapes. What year were you in when you dropped out?


> Lacto Ovo Pescetarian since September 21, 2008


Good for you. Let us know how it worked out, in a year or so.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> You don't know how to think either.


Must be those University degrees.


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## duosonic (Jan 7, 2004)

Every BODY requires, and/or does better or worse with a different diet. Some bodies thrive on a meat-heavy diet; some thrive on a strictly veg diet; some need a careful balance in between. 

I eat very little beef, because my body has trouble digesting it. However, I don't have the same problems with pork, lamb, chicken or fish.

I also make sure to eat a lot of vegetables - partly because I grow many of them, partly because I like them, partly because I know, and can see, the health benefits.

And I participate in a co-operative farming effort with another family - on 3 acres we have a veg garden, fruit trees & bushes, plus cow, goats, sheep, pigs, chickens, rabbits and turkeys being raised for food. If we're going to eat it, it will be healthy, well-raised, happy meat (milk, etc.). And we fish for trout. The animals also provide much-needed manure for fertilizing the gardens. And the goats help keep the rampant wild rose & other brush in check (of course we do have to protect the fruit trees from the goats …).

There are so many approaches to diet, and so many reasons/justifications/rationalizations for each choice - but for me, what it gets down to is "what works for my body" and "what works for my community". I'd love to eat more seafood - but I live 500 miles from the ocean, and have a limited income, so crab, prawns, lobster are a once-in-a-while treat. Apples, pears, plums, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries grow well here - so those are the fruits I eat most often. But I do use orange when making cranberry sauce … I'm not trying to maintain some kind of morally impeccable stance; I'm trying to find a series of choices that work, for my finances, health, and community.

cheers!


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## fozy (Jul 18, 2006)

duosonic said:


> And I participate in a co-operative farming effort with another family - on 3 acres we have a veg garden, fruit trees & bushes, plus cow, goats, sheep, pigs, chickens, rabbits and turkeys being raised for food. If we're going to eat it, it will be healthy, well-raised, happy meat (milk, etc.). And we fish for trout. The animals also provide much-needed manure for fertilizing the gardens. And the goats help keep the rampant wild rose & other brush in check (of course we do have to protect the fruit trees from the goats …).


Wow, that sounds like a wonderful setup.  I don't want to derail the thread, but I'd like to know how you got into that situation.


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## duosonic (Jan 7, 2004)

fozy - & anyone else who's interested -I live in a very small town in the middle of lots of forest, with small amounts or rural development scattered around and between towns. Some friends of mine - a family of three adults and 8 children - settled here about 5 years ago, and wound up buying a small (2.5 acre) piece of land just outside of town that was previously part of a larger farm (the rest is now mostly residential pieces of a few acres each). My own place is not appropriate for growing a large amount of food - too shady, and surrounded by poplars with vicious roots. So I asked if I could rent/borrow a small amount of their garden space to grow a few things. They said, well, let's just garden together & split the food equitably. One of the adults needed to do some travelling early in the summer, and the farming is based on the presence of 3 adults, so they hired me to fill in for the absent adult for a month, helping with child care, animal care, fencing, etc. … when the other adult returned, we just continued sharing the work, and the food … They are very generous-of-spirit people with a lively commitment to building community, so things have worked well, without side trips into "you only worked 48 minutes this week …" or stuff like that. I remain committed to working there because I love it - it makes me feel good, and I like knowing I have some food put by for when the world collapses around me (tongue in cheek, or not).


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## fozy (Jul 18, 2006)

Thanks for the response duosonic. Just paint me green with envy. But really, it's great to see such communities existing. Hopefully I'll be able to find one of my own before too long.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Even in the city, I like to grow my own vegetables, even if it isn't necessary. We've successfully grown and harvested green beans, tomatoes, corn, potatoes, broccoli, lettuce, basil, thyme, ginger, carrots, sage, rhubarb, peppers and squash without too much effort. Grapes and pears get pillaged by raccoons so those are our worst crops.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

We have teeth that are a mix of carnivores and herbivores, so moderation in both seems to be the plan.

Anything else is a moral decision.

I love meat, yes I do. :clap:


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## Gerbill (Jul 1, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> You have the wrong impression of Frank Ogdens quote:
> 
> OGDEN'S LAWS, PART II - (Lessons From The Future vol 7)
> 
> ...


Don't take things so seriously - I was just (gently) yanking your chain.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Cows and chickens thank you.



MazterCBlazter said:


> Removed meat and chicken from my diet on September 20.
> 
> Was 276 pounds.
> 
> ...


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

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