# Why are hybrid cars so ugly.



## anal-log (Feb 22, 2003)

Don't mean to offend anyone that owns one but why are hybrid cars so butt UGLY. 

Is this done on purpose?  
I can't believe they have to look they way they do for technical or mechanical reasons. They look like they should be driven by circus clowns. That said, I still would considering purchasing one though. 

<img src="http://www.ehmac.ca/attachment.php?attachmentid=204"><br />


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

There are actually hybrid versions of several popular cars and trucks which are just now coming to market. Pretty much all of them look just like their normally powered counterparts. I can think of no technical reason for hybrids to look any different than a regular vehicle. At least not from the outside.

I suspect that the earliest hybrids were purposely styled to "look different" so that the early adopters could have beaming rights amongst their greenie buddies. Now that fuel costs have gone up signifigantly, we can expect to see a major shift towards hybrid vehicles amongst the general public as well. I bet that most of us will own one, probably rather soon. They make quite a bit of sense.

But don't be fooled into thinking that hybrid vehicles are the magic answer to all of our pollution problems. Like any vehicle that depends on electricity as a part of its motive power, a hybrid must carry some sort of a battery pack or a set of large capacitors to store the (in this case self-generated) electricity. Once hybrids make up a large portion of the vehicles on our roads, there will be a signifigant problem in getting rid of or recycling this huge sea of spent batteries.

Expect to see the greenies begin to abandon them in droves...and even actively campaign against hybrid vehicles once this new pollution threat is identified.  

Not to worry though...that won't happen for a decade or two. Till then...enjoy!


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

anal-log said:


> Don't mean to offend anyone that owns one but why are hybrid cars so butt UGLY.
> 
> Is this done on purpose?
> I can't believe they have to look they way they do for technical or mechanical reasons. They look like they should be driven by circus clowns. That said, I still would considering purchasing one though.
> Hybrid


Honda does make hybrids that are identical to there smog producing brothers  , Lexus recently released several models that look great too  , Ford also recently released a Hybrid Escape 



> Expect to see the greenies begin to abandon them in droves...and even actively campaign against hybrid vehicles once this new pollution threat is identified


I don't know about the Honda's, Lexus, or Ford, but the Toyota Prius is 100% recyclable.

Laterz


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Style and beauty are all perceptions. I drive an Echo, which is one of the most economical cars on the road, but looks like a roller skate. People laugh at me as I drive by..........................but they are filling up their SUVs, and I fill up once every 4-6 weeks.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Most battery packs are indeed recycleable. But when every second car on the road carries one of these large battery packs then the recycling task becomes a monumental one. Expect to see a whole new type of polloution show up on the greenie radar at that point. And we haven't even factored in the amount of energy it takes to do all of this intensive recycling.

But for a while at least, Hybrids coupled with high fuel prices are a greenies wet dream come true. 

Party won't last though. It never does with them.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

I kind of like the Prius styling, and the Honda Civic hybred... well it's a Civic


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Dr.G. said:


> Style and beauty are all perceptions. I drive an Echo, which is one of the most economical cars on the road, but looks like a roller skate. People laugh at me as I drive by..........................but they are filling up their SUVs, and I fill up once every 4-6 weeks.


Good choice for a car DR.G

actually the Toyota Echo Hatchback is one of my favourite cars on the road today it's got style, it's fuel economical, and the Echo hatchback that I test drove handled extremely well, if it handled a bit tighter it would almost be as good as my Austin Mini.

I believe that the Echo is another one of Toyota's 100% recyclable cars, again good choice DR.G

Laterz


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

*Once again, FUD is Being Spread by MacNutt*



MacNutt said:


> Most battery packs are indeed recycleable. But when every second car on the road carries one of these large battery packs then the recycling task becomes a monumental one. Expect to see a whole new type of polloution show up on the greenie radar at that point. And we haven't even factored in the amount of energy it takes to do all of this intensive recycling.


Ahhh...compliment the technology on one hand and then backstab it with another.

Look at the careful choice of words and phrases used here:

"Most"
"Large"
"monumental"
"whole new type of pollution"
"intensive recycling"

You sure you didn't work as a propagandist for those overseas tyrannies?

For anyone who may be concerned by MacNutt's FUD:

This comes from http://eartheasy.com/live_hybrid_cars.htm



> About hybrid car batteries
> 
> (This information from Toyota) - Lab data for the hybrid battery shows the equivalent of 180,000 miles (289,681 km) with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. Battery technology continues to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and are expected to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the Prius went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
> 
> Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

K_OS, sadly, I wanted a Toyota Hatchback, but we went with the regular Echo. My son is nearly 6 feet tall, and most of his friends are even taller. The little hatchback is great for gas, but not too great for tall people. Still, we don't drive all that much (apx. 3500 km a year), so this car, if kept tuned, shall last a LONG time.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Personally, I think this is probably the ultimate environmentally-friendly car--assuming you have to have a car at all, of course. 

http://www.theaircar.com/

I love the concept. Butt-ugly, yes, but the technology and physics behind it is fantastic. Perhaps, after the hybrid and electric car, this is the next big thing.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah the usual disinformation form the usual source. Lithium is likely going to be the choice in the long term



> Lithium Batteries
> Processes currently available:
> 
> A lithium salt mixture is recovered and shipped to another facililty that recovers pure lithium carbonate from the impure mixture of lithium salts. The lithium carbonate is then sold back to the battery manufacturers.


Battery recycling is already a sizeable biz and simply will grow as volume increases.

•••

Early designs were likely a combo of trying to stuff new systems into a "traditional space while looking for a slippery coefficient as most early adopters would want traditional mileage improvement technology which = small and tear drop.
As said it needed to "look" green too.

As the benefits became obvious ( great torque) and systems improved and the stuff got smaller the cars look more normal - like the Escape.


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## scootsandludes (Nov 28, 2003)

the only odd looking hybrids I can think of is the Toyota Prius, and Honda Insight (discontinued, correct me if I'm wrong), whilst all the rest are just like their gas powered siblings.

The Prius has a waiting list of 6-8 months just to get one, while I think the others are there when you're ready to buy, there's even ebay auctions just to get in line for one of these Prius'. The whole odd styling of these hybrids is what's attracting buyers, they want to show off that their in a hybrid, not hide behind a gas design car.

On another note, I'm surprised that the SMART car is so popular, like Dr. G, I would got for a Echo as well, (though I'd take a 2 door hatch). They use about the same amount of gas, but you have a back seat, and you can actually keep your groceries in there, and it cost much less, sure you don't have a entry level Benz, but who cares. Now if they introduced the European counterpart of the SMART car being all electric, or diesel or hybrid, then that would be justifiable. Otherwise we'll see a whole new trend of SMART car tipping

vince


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

<i>Hybrids coupled with high fuel prices are a greenies wet dream come true</i>

Oh come on, Macnutt. You don't have to be a "greenie" to appreciate that these hybrids just make a lot of sense. As for your other point, I'd like to see a cost-benefit analysis that demonstrates how depleted hybrid batteries could come even close to matching the damaging effects of cars that exclusively burn fossil-fuels. 

As for design...I dunno...I think the Prius is rather neat looking.


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

the theme of this month's wired magazine happens to be hybrid cars and there's a few good articles that would be of interest to you:

When it comes to gas mileage, Prius owners can make TiVo users and Mac addicts seem blasé. 

Hybrids Hed2Hed 

the second one features all of the currently available hybrids, with photos!

hope this helps,

miguel


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

So far I haven't seen any references to how much energy all of this flurry of battery recycling will consume....but we can expect it to be substantial. (Monumental actually, especially when you consider how many thousands of tons of batteries will have to be recycled once we all make the switch)

And that energy pretty much ALWAYS comes from burning fossil fuels, BTW. Which puts us back at square one in the old pollution cycle. Just like hydrogen or pure electric cars will do.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Note to PG...

If you read my post on the previous page, you will see that I have said that "hybrids make a lot of sense".

But I STILL think the greenies (or their children) will be tearing their hearts out in tortured angst at the huge recycling and disposal costs of all of those batteries. They will need some new "cause" to focus on, after all. 

Note to macdoc....

I'm not aware of any hybrid vehicles that actually use lithium batteries. Can you provide any backup for your statement...or is it just another one of your ideologically-driven fantasy scenarios?


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## agent4321 (Jun 25, 2004)

I think the Civic hybrid is a good looking car! I would drive one in a nanosecond if I had the money. But I will have to stick to my '95 Civic Si for the time being.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

At some point very soon, only your mechanic will be able to tell if your car is a hybrid or not.

And I think that all of us will be driving one not too terribly long from now. And enjoying the experience.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> So far I haven't seen any references to how much energy all of this flurry of battery recycling will consume....but we can expect it to be substantial.


Let's see...you say that you haven't seen any references to how much energy the recycling will take yet you posit that it will be substantial? I know that this must be a common refrain for you but why don't you get something to back up what you say before you say it?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> I'm not aware of any hybrid vehicles that actually use lithium batteries. Can you provide any backup for your statement


That is so hypocritical that it's not even funny.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Here is a reprint of what I wrote here at ehmac more than two years ago, on the subject of hybrid cars.

Read it and then draw your own conclusions.



"Gas-electric hybrids are a whole different thing. Not only are they viable, they are currently for sale from several manufacturers right this moment. You can buy one right now! 

There is still a big subsidy to help defray their costs, however. But the fuel mileage and low polloution levels they produce are really quite amazing, and...once the general public accepts them and starts to buy hybrids in large numbers...we will probably all find ourselves driving some form of gas or diesel hybrid vehicle.

Perhaps in the very near future.

Probably within the next ten years, or less.

They will be the "bridge" between what we have now, and some totally different type of vehicle. At least, that's my take on the subject.

But....

One small problem with hybrids is this. They require either a large battery array or capacitor storage device to power the electric part of the hybrid vehicle (when the gas or diesel motor is not actually running). 

And nobody is quite sure what to do with all of the spent batteries, once there are millions of these vehicles on the road. Any sort of electrical storage device has to be disposed of eventually, and most of them contain some pretty toxic elements. 

That's why you have to pay a "recycling fee" when you buy a car battery these days.

Imagine what would happen if every single car on the road were a hybrid....and if all of them carried a set of batteries that were about five times the size of the current battery that you have in a pure gasoline car. This is, by the way, a conservative estimate of battery size for a hybrid.

Forget about the fallacy of purely electric vehicles. Not only would we need to burn vast amounts of fossil fuels in our powerplants to provide electricity for them, but they would be an unmitigated disaster for the environment when their huge battery arrays were disposed of. Pure electrics are also very short range vehicles. That won't change anytime soon, unless there is a giant breakthrough in battery technology.

Personally, I wouldn't count on it.

Purely electric cars are a non-starter, when you get right down to it. Overall polloution levels would go WAY up. So would costs per mile.

But hybrids look pretty darned good, really. Except for the battery disposal question.

How would we get rid of this vast amount of toxic material, once the batteries were spent, or once the hybrid vehicle was retired from daily use?

It's certainly something to think about.

While there may be some new tech breakthroughs on the distant horizon that will solve these problems, we all have to realise this one simple truth:

It is this: We will probably be switching from one expensive fuel to another (gasoline to hydrogen or whatever)...and from one polloution problem to another equally bad (although somewhat different) one. 

At least in the very near future. 

But, having said that, I still think we will all be driving hybrids within the next ten years. And I think that something much better is on the distant horizon. Hybrids will get us there.

At the risk of reminding all of us of the title of one of Madonnas most recent movie flops, I will say that hybrid vehicles will be "The Next BIG Thing"

Honest."



Now...having reminded Ironmac et al of my previously stated support for hybrids...along with my concerns about the disposal of the massive number of batteries involved in these vehicles....I will head back over to the biggest subject of the evening.

Liberal Corruption EXPOSED for all to see.*  

And I would expect that the lodest supporters of the Liberals would want to meet me there and deal with the shocking allegations that became public knowledge today.

Or...maybe they'd just prefer to hide over here and argue about something really important. Like how easy it is to recycle batteries.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

I seem to recall you saying earlier that it's not worthwhile bringing up your old posts? Once again, hypocrisy strikes!

Look, I'm not even going to bother reading this latest post. You know why? 

Because it's old news...your earlier posts about hybrids is also based on old info. Why don't you go and do some research at your local library (oh wait...that's a socialist thing)...why don't you go and buy some magazines at your local bookstore and read up on the topic first and then get back to us.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

A little touchy tonight, aren't we Ironmac?

I can see why...what with all of those major disappointments crowding your space. And all of that failed ideology cluttering up your personal life.(That stuff gets underfoot doesn't it? And the wreckage always stains the shag carpet as well.)

Fear not...brighter days are coming! Hybrids will become a reality and we will have a brand new government rather soon as well.

It's a new day. Embrace it!


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> I can see why...what with all of those major disappointments crowding your space. And all of that failed ideology cluttering up your personal life.(That stuff gets underfoot doesn't it? And the wreckage always stains the shag carpet as well.)


*Yaaawwwwnnnnnnn*


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Nice. Your favorite political party is busy doing a nuclear meltdown and all of your precious predictions about the future of the middle east have now been tossed into the round file. Democracy is breaking out all over theat region and the US President that you hate with a fiery passion has just been re-elected with a much larger margin of approval than before the invasion that you have said was "illegal". 

While all of this is happening, I take a moment to point out that I was a vocal supporter of hybrid vehicles more than two years ago...which IS the actual theme of this thread, after all. I do this in order to cut through all of the smoke and fog of your current nitpick. In order to do this, I have reprinted a post from more than two years ago that proves I am all for hybrid vehicles, and that I have been for some time now.

And all you can come up with as a reply is to yawn, and to admit that you refuse to read what I wrote so long ago...

We should all note that you do this while studiously avoiding all of the many current ehmac threads that might prove personally embarassing to you. 

That would be rather a lot of them right now. Wouldn't it, Ironmac?  

Odd about that, eh?


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

The battery disposal problem doesn't worry me. A lot of the heavy metals in the batteries can be recycled. Perhaps some companies would even pay for these metals, if large volumes can be used.

Most metals have relatively low leachability, especially in a controlled environment. So even if heavy metals are disposed in our landfills, they can safely be contained.

Hybrids are a great idea to meet our short term goals of reducing fuel consumption and pollution.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Agreed, Vandave. Hybrids are the answer in the short term. No question about it at all. (I've been saying this for more than two and a half years at this forum, BTW.)

But I've also been saying, for just as long, that the battery recycling/disposal problems that are associated with widespread hybrid adoption amongst the general public, is going to be a big red flag for the whacko greenies someday soon. 

Either they, or their carefully indoctrinated children, will be loudly marching in the streets AGAINST hybrid vehicles, one day in the not too distant future.

I stand by that.

Watch and see.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> Nice. Your favorite political party is busy doing a nuclear meltdown and all of your precious predictions about the future of the middle east have now been tossed into the round file.


Tell me something...do you think that the Tories would do better in power? Why do u think that Campbell was kicked out of power so quickly?
And, you've ignored my question on this many many times...what predictions are you talking about?



MacNutt said:


> Democracy is breaking out all over theat region and the US President that you hate with a fiery passion has just been re-elected with a much larger margin of approval than before the invasion that you have said was "illegal".


As I've pointed out before...*two* countries are/have undergone the beginnings of the democratic process. You've ignored my points about the fact that the U.S. itself supports countries in the region that you yourself have characterized as "tyrannies". Should we go down the list again? Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to name a few.

And I'm not the only one that says that invasion was illegal. The pretext for it was false false false...tell me something, was it about democracy or was it about so-called WMDs?



MacNutt said:


> While all of this is happening, I take a moment to point out that I was a vocal supporter of hybrid vehicles more than two years ago


I never said that you were not a supporter. You're just backstabbing the technology with your FUD over the recycling of the batteries themselves. Either you're then against the technology or you're against the environmental movement that is one of the factors which is pushing this technology. Which is it? Given your background who can tell?



MacNutt said:


> I do this in order to cut through all of the smoke and fog of your current nitpick. In order to do this, I have reprinted a post from more than two years ago that proves I am all for hybrid vehicles, and that I have been for some time now.


A. You're the one who's trying to FUD the entire recycling issue with old information.
B. You're being hypocritical in bringing up an old post of your's. Remember, you're the one in another thread who laughed at the idea of us bringing you to account over your old posts.



MacNutt said:


> And all you can come up with as a reply is to yawn, and to admit that you refuse to read what I wrote so long ago...


Yes, because a lot of is simply "recycled" material that is not worth reading.



MacNutt said:


> We should all note that you do this while studiously avoiding all of the many current ehmac threads that might prove personally embarassing to you.


Unlike you, I don't post on every thread with the same old "This is the Liberals' fault"..."This is failed ideology"..."This is part of the overall change sweeping the world"...it might be refreshing if you brought up something new.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> But I've also been saying, for just as long, that the battery recycling/disposal problems that are associated with widespread hybrid adoption amongst the general public, is going to be a big red flag for the whacko greenies someday soon.


See? Once again, it's amazing how you simply cannot seem to LEARN anything new!!!


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

One of us certainly doesn't seem to be able to absorb any new ideas, Ironmac.

Given the fact that you have been so terribly WRONG on so many of your predictions here at ehmac...and yet you STILL wholeheartedly embrace the very same ideals that led to your many errors and bad predictions...

Given all of that obvious evidence....I would humbly suggest that YOU are not actually learning from your very public mistakes.

Ironmac...I just KNOW that you are smart enough to figure all of this out. You just have to free your mind from the tired old ways and look at things as they really are.

At the very least you'll be able to stop making excuses as to why you were so terribly wrong. On a whole BUNCH of subjects.

PM me...and I'll help guide you through the big switch. It's pretty painless really. And SO enlightening.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> Given the fact that you have been so terribly WRONG on so many of your predictions here at ehmac...and yet you STILL wholeheartedly embrace the very same ideals that led to your many errors and bad predictions...
> 
> At the very least you'll be able to stop making excuses as to why you were so terribly wrong. On a whole BUNCH of subjects.


Avoiding the question huh? Typical modus operandi that I've pointed out before. C'mon...give it up...give me...let's see...*three* of my predictions where I've been so terribly WRONG.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

The extent of your many bad predictions for the future would require a whole new thread, IronMac.

The whole situation in the middle east is about the polar opposite to what you loudly claimed it was going to be at this time last year. Is it not?

Can we just move this to a new thread? Maybe one that is entitled "IronMacs Bad Calls?"

I'm certain that many others here are also aware how poor some of your predictions about the future have been.

Do you REALLY want to go there?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> Do you REALLY want to go there?


Yes, let's do go there.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Then start a new thread...if that's what floats yer boat.

But I just gotta tell ya Ironmac, I don't feel the least bit good about what's coming here.  

I actually like you IronMac...and I really enjoy debating with you on a whole range of subjects. This particular tact will only lead to a breakdown in that situation...and some serious personal grief for you. I have no desire to rub your nose in any of this. But I will, if I have to.

Do you REALLY want to go there?


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

Now to bring this thread back to it's original topic. I know I've been told before that Hydrogen cars are a pipe dream but at least there are companys trying to make that dream a reality. The Honda FCX uses a system that converts hydrogen to electricity one was spotted recently in Ann Harbor.

Honda FCX
<img src="http://corporate.honda.com/images/assets/fcx_02.jpg">

http://warnerrobert.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=005119;p=

Laterz


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I suspect we'll see a whole variety of solutions - sort of the way the industry was when it was born












> The longest standing steam Land Speed Record was set in 1906. With driver Fred Marriot at the wheel, the Stanley Steamer managed 127.659 mph.*


http://www.bluebird-electric.net/steam_car_record.htm

There are some interesting solar direct to hydrogen stand alone units being developed - maybe we'll see Revenooers looking for illicit hydrogen stills. 
The ones I've seen are a bit taller but about the same footprint as a swing set.

The age of energy ingenuity is coming......'bout time :clap:

Scary numbers about the need for energy and the difficulty filling it. ;(

Hybrids are an excellent start.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

BMW is another company that has it's eye on Hydrogen power for it's future fleet.



> The single-seater H2R Record Car uses a 6.0-litre 12 cylinder power unit producing in excess of 210 kW, that races to 100 km/h in just six seconds and has a top speed of 302.4 km/h. The engine is based on the V12 unit powering BMW’s flagship limousine, the BMW 760Li. The hydrogen combustion engine boasts the most advanced technologies such as BMW's fully variable VALVETRONIC valve train control.
> 
> 
> BMW will be launching a dual-mode version of the current 7 Series during the production cycle of the present model, thus introducing the first car of its kind able to run on both hydrogen and petrol.


<img src="http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/h2r.jpg">

Laterz


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Ford is now making a Hybrid Escape, and they are using Toyota's Hybrid technology, the same as you'll find in the Prius and in the new Hybrid Highlander:










As to the battery thing, there are already programs in place for recycling them. As the volume grows, I'm sure more businesses will start up. As more businesses start up, more efficient techniques will be developed. That's the way economies work, after all.

MacNutt, if you're that convinced that the energy consumed in the recycling of batteries is so immense, why don't you find out and post some actual information about it. That's how discussion works, you know. If you say something, burden of proof is on you to prove it, not everyone else to disprove it.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> Eliica eight-wheeler
> 
> It doesn't require plutonium to power its flux capacitor. It won't travel through time when it reaches 88mph. And unlike the Doc and Marty McFly's DeLorean of Back To The Future fame, it needs nothing more than a power point to keep it running.
> 
> Called the Eliica - short for Electric Lithium-Ion battery Car - this radical 800bhp eight-wheeler from Japan is proof that electric vehicles can be fast and fun to drive, too. *Boasting a four-second 0-60mph sprint and seven-second 0-100mph time, the Eliica is faster than a Porsche 911 Turbo.........n tests, the Eliica has recorded a top speed of 370kph (230mph) , although its inventor Hiroshi Shimizu claims it could clear 400kph (250mph) in the right conditions.*.......more >


 http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/previews/51690/eliica_eightwheeler.html

Lots here on progress http://www.greencarcongress.com/electric_battery/


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

I saw that Eliica on Discovery when they were doing a week long event of Daily Planet from Japan. Apparently there are two models of the car, a race car model and a consumer model. As you mentioned the race car model goes up to 370kph, the consumer model doesn't go that fast but goes as fast as any normal car (you don't need a consumer model that goes 370kph). The race car model was to demonstrate to various companies that an electric car is NOT slow. The consumer model, though, does accelerate 0 - 100 kph in 7 sec. The Daily Planet woman who rode in the car says it feels like a rocket taking off when you accelerate 0 - 100, you can feel the acceleration. It also has good brakes.

As for the battery problem, as Posterboy says, recyclers will take care of that, and I'm sure that eventually batteries will get better and smaller.


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## talonracer (Dec 30, 2003)

Kosh said:


> you don't need a consumer model that goes 370kph


The hell you say!!!


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

talonracer said:


> The hell you say!!!


hmmm 370kph, leave home for work at 8:55am stop for coffee and get to work at 8:59am 

Laterz


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

referring to all hybrids as butt-ugly is certainly a generalization. i quite like the look of the toyota prius these days, whereas i didn't initially.

as far as the award for ugliest car goes, i'd have to pick the pontiac aztek. i do not think it's a hybrid however


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I seem to recall that about my sixth post on this forum was on the subject of how butt-ugly the Pontiac Aztec was...and then, one of the older more established members of ehmac took that moment to step up and post some photos of HIS cherished Aztec, just for my perusal and enlightenment.

He also gave me hell for saying that it was "ugly". He rather liked the looks of the hideous thing. Apparently. 

Personally, I STILL think it looks worse than the box it came in.

And I STILL maintain that all of the new and wondrous "alternative power" vehicles will have some major polloution hurdles to overcome. Ones that we cannot yet imagine, until they become a signifigant portion of the mobile fleet of cars that are on our public streets.

Hydrogen is a dead loss at this point. Hydrogen cars would cause even MORE fossil fuels to be burned than at present.

Pure Electric cars are a joke. We don't have even the BEGINNINGS of an electrical infrastructure to actually support them. And they would cause vastly MORE fossil fuels to be burned...just to power them. Building the massive infrastructurer to support any sort of large fleet of them would require BILLIONS of dollars in new expenditures. And Billions of barrels of burned fossil fuels, too.

Propane or natural gas is a viable option. As are hybrids. But they all have some sort of achilles heel in the recycling department that might come back to bite us once they hit the big time. And there is amost NO infrastructure to support them at present.

Building this massive new infrastructure would take huge amounts of energy. Pretty much ALL of it derived from fossil fuels, BTW.

Such is always the case when the lefty-loonies tell us that there is some new "magic bullet" out there that will solve ALL of our problems. And FIX all of the planet's pollution problems. Or it's social problems.

These people have been dead WRONG in all of their assumptions and ideals, on EVERY count, for...oh...about the past five decades. NO exceptions.

But...maybe we should start listening to them now?

Who knows? They could actually be RIGHT...THIS time around. For a change.

Want to bet on it?


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## autopilot (Dec 2, 2004)

MacNutt said:


> I seem to recall that about my sixth post on this forum was on the subject of how butt-ugly the Pontiac Aztec was...


forgive me if i didn't read your SIXTH post on this topic... you do tend to ramble on, so i generally just scan past your multiple posts on a topic, no offense.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MacNutt said:


> Propane or natural gas is a viable option. As are hybrids. But they all have some sort of achilles heel in the recycling department that might come back to bite us once they hit the big time. And there is amost NO infrastructure to support them at present.


Lots of gas stations sell propane these days, and hybrids use gas. In other words, they both have infrastructure.

As to the battery recycling thing, it's already in place and only has room to grow. Is there a reason why you don't want to admit that's how economies work?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Propane is NOT natural gas. Natural gas is mostly methane...which is a completely different kettle of fish.

Propane is quite commonly available. But natural gas is vastly more common in nature, (hugely so, actually).

There is quite a lot of infrastructure that remains to be built in order to deliver the abundant natural gas to vehicles that will run on it. Especially since there are almost no natural gas vehicles on the streets these days. (that will change, I'll bet).

As for battery recycling:

Yes, there are battery recycling plants all over the place. 

NO...they could NOT POSSIBLY handle the massive flood of spent batteries from a nationwide fleet of hybrid vehicles. Not in a month of sundays.

THAT will take a huge new expenditure of infrastructure dollars, as well. And LOTS of burned fossil fuels to make it happen. Probably lots more burned fossil fuels to dismantle the existing gasoline infrastructure as well.

Then there will be the question of where to dispopse of the un-useable portions of the spent batteries. Tens of thousands of tons of this stuff, BTW. Every single year.

Like I said...no easy and magic answers. Despite what any of the wild-eyed ones might want you to think.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacNutt said:


> Then there will be the question of where to dispopse of the un-useable portions of the spent batteries. Tens of thousands of tons of this stuff, BTW. Every single year.
> 
> Like I said...no easy and magic answers. Despite what any of the wild-eyed ones might want you to think.


Tens of thousands of tonnes of batteries isn't that much volume. I am not worried about the disposal problem for batteries. The recycling infrastructure could be ramped up pretty quickly. Even if we didn't recycle, I am not too worried about the disposal issue.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

You should be. Most of the real experts ARE worried about it.

No matter what macdoc and Co. might say here...these are NOT the same automotive batteries that you know and love. They are something entirely different.

And there will be a sh*tload of em. Enough to cover New Brunswick to a depth of fifteen feet. And that is just one year's worth.

At that point, we will have a brand new pollution problem on our hands. And, no doubt, a whole new reason for the obsessive greenies (or their children) to freak out and hit the streets with their signs. Same old crap...different pile.

Trust me on this.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

MacNutt said:


> You should be. Most of the real experts ARE worried about it.
> 
> No matter what macdoc and Co. might say here...these are NOT the same automotive batteries that you know and love. They are something entirely different.
> 
> ...


New Brunswick is about 300 km by 300 km. The volume of a 15 foot pile would be 400 billion m3 of material. Let's say a hybrid car battery is 0.25 m3 (1 m by 0.5 m by 0.5 m) in volume. That would be 1.6 trillion batteries! If the average hybrid battery lasts 8 years, you would need to have about 13 trillion hybrid cars on the road at any given time. However, there is probably around 1 billion cars in the world. So if all cars were hybrids and we used New Brunswick as a dumping ground, I think we would OK until the next ice age. Personally, I think Ottawa or Shawinigan would be the place to start the dumping.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I vote for OTTAWA!! 

It could solve TWO big problems in one fell swoop. Talk about muti-tasking!

Anyone with me on this?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

I know there is no infrastructure for natural gas cars right now, but there are no natural gas cars right now, are there?

You know what else? If there were suddenly a nation-wide fleet of hybrid cars, I bet we would have problems keeping up with the volume of spent batteries that would follow a few years down the road. But that isn't how it works, is it? It going to take a while for hybrid cars to become more commonplace, and while that is happening the infrastructure will be built up right along with it.

Remember? Economics 101.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I think that we WOULD be able to deal with this vast flood of spent batteries, PB.

But I ALSO think that the new pollution problems that would arise from this wide and never ending river of spent batteries would eventually incense the greenies, and get them back out on the protest trail.

It would be better fuel mileage for all of us. And I have always said that I think we ALL will be driving some sort of hybrid. Probably fairly soon.

And...once the nationwide fleet of cars is largely made up of hybrids...the greenies will begin to FREAK OUT because of the new type of pollution that the hybrid vehicles have created.

This will all take place within the next decade or so. Perhaps even less, depending on gas prices.. (high gas prices=FASTER...low gas prices=SLOWER)

Watch and see.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> I think that we WOULD be able to deal with this vast flood of spent batteries, PB.
> 
> But I ALSO think that the new pollution problems that would arise from this wide and never ending river of spent batteries would eventually incense the greenies, and get them back out on the protest trail.
> 
> And...once the nationwide fleet of cars is largely made up of hybrids...the greenies will begin to FREAK OUT because of the new type of pollution that the hybrid vehicles have created.


More of the same old same old...you don't learn very quickly do you?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

One of us doesn't. Or so it would seem. 

Care to hang around awhile and compare track records on this sort of stuff? After two or five or ten years or more? 

I got nothin but time, old buddy. And I'm not planning to be anywhere else. Even a decade from now. 

Trust me on this.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> I got nothin but time, old buddy.


Got no time for the other thread? 

You know that I will be bringing it up.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I've got plenty of time to be here over the long run, Ironmac. Notice the post count. 

I'll let you know when I have a whole lot of spare time to waste thumbing through old threads looking for the obvious stuff that the lame vBulletin search engine can't seem to find on it's own.

Meanwhile...I like posting. Not squinting past a lot of madcdoc's old boring and long-winded rants while searching for your failed predictions on the middle east.

Gee..call me crazy.


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

MacNutt said:


> I'll let you know when I have a whole lot of spare time to waste thumbing through old threads looking for the obvious stuff that the lame vBulletin search engine can't seem to find on it's own.


You've spent six hours posting this evening...



MacNutt said:


> Gee..call me crazy.


Chant along with me folks!

Give me an "H"!
Give me a "Y"!
Give me a "P"! .......


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Yeah Ironmac. Six hours "posting"

Versus six hours of NOT posting...and six hours of squinting through old threads, and suffering through the mountains of dreck that macdoc has written over the past three or four years. Blecchhh.

And for what?

And I'll be doing this while the best political show in five years is unfolding right before my very eyes?? One that I predicted back in 2002...right here at ehmac, BTW.

Get real. And pick a better moment.


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## AWK (Mar 25, 2005)

MacNutt said:


> Like I said...no easy and magic answers. Despite what any of the wild-eyed ones might want you to think.


HA! Of course there's an easy answer - horse and buggy. A return to pre-industrialized civilization will save the planet. All we need is one REALLY big war - reduce the surplus population - wipe out "modern" conveniences - force survivors to actually WORK for their keep!


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MacNutt said:


> But I ALSO think that the new pollution problems that would arise from this wide and never ending river of spent batteries


What exactly are you basing this "it'll cause more pollution in the end!" thing on? Do you have anything to back it up? Anything at all?


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## IronMac (Sep 22, 2003)

PosterBoy said:


> What exactly are you basing this "it'll cause more pollution in the end!" thing on? Do you have anything to back it up? Anything at all?


I thought that it was too early for crickets to start fiddling???


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

It's been 2 hours since I posted! MacNutt hasn't responded! HE MUST BE HIDING IN EMBARASSMENT! OMG! LOL!!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

PB, play nicely in the sandbox. Actually, I wonder what are the actual components of the hybrid car battery? We looked at a Toyota Prius, but it was way too expensive for the amount of driving we actually do in a year.


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## Jordan (Jul 20, 2002)

Maybe I missed it here, but there is BioDiesel.
Vegetable oil, a renewable resource, less polluting than gasoline and diesel.
At this time I'm getting a Japanese Toyota Land Cruiser Turbo Diesel shipped from Japan (right hand drive) and I'll be making my own BioDiesel to run in it.

Hybrids, give me a break, they're not as good as they say they are.
Then dealing with the $8000 replacement cost and recycling of the batteries.


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## AWK (Mar 25, 2005)

Hybrid vehicles are part of a misguided effort to reduce waste. Ultimately, the average mindset regarding vehicles needs to change. Lighter/smaller vehicles with smaller, efficient engines is the best current answer. Until we all stop feeling we "deserve" to drive what we like, we'll continue "paying the piper".

Think green - WALK!


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## miguelsanchez (Feb 1, 2005)

> At this time I'm getting a Japanese Toyota Land Cruiser Turbo Diesel shipped from Japan (right hand drive) and I'll be making my own BioDiesel to run in it.


jordan, keep that to yourself. the government may come after you to collect gas taxes they would normally collect had you bought conventional diesel.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

miguelsanchez said:


> jordan, keep that to yourself. the government may come after you to collect gas taxes they would normally collect had you bought conventional diesel.


According to this it's tax exempt in Ontario and from the Canadian government.

http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/policy/lifesciences/biodiesel.htm


> # In general, the cost of producing biodiesel makes it more expensive than petrodiesel. As of June 2002, biodiesel is exempt from the 14.3 cents-per-litre Ontario fuel tax, making it more cost-competitive with petrodiesel. Biodiesel is also exempt from the Federal excise tax of 4 cents-per-litre.


I would buy a diesel car if only there was more choice than the current VW's and the Jeep Liberty more car manufacturers should be encouraged to bring there diesel engines over.

Laterz


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