# Apple Shares



## Snowy (Dec 13, 2008)

Someone took the trouble and time to do up this chart.

It's very interesting!

Kyle Conroy's Personal Blog and Portfolio - Should I have bought that Apple Product?


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

That's just painful


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

There is this problem though.
If we all had bought Apple shares *instead* of our various apple products, apple consumer product sales would not have increased, and neither would the share values.
The old catch-22.


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## Snowy (Dec 13, 2008)

jamesB said:


> There is this problem though.
> If we all had bought Apple shares *instead* of our various apple products, apple consumer product sales would not have increased, and neither would the share values.
> The old catch-22.


True.
The best of both worlds is owning both Apple Shares and as many Apple products as one can afford..


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

*Punch Apple's Shares Into Your iPad, Press 'Buy'*





> Apple seems the relative bargain. If my enthusiasm is any indication, everyone who reads or watches a screen is going to want—and get—an iPad. After seeing mine, two of my friends headed straight to an Apple store this weekend. I think this is a breakout product for Apple, and if you agree with me, I would invest in the stock sooner rather than later.


(WallStreetJournal)


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## shoyokaede (Apr 28, 2010)

i don't like it~


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## ehlive (Sep 5, 2007)

that is actually depressing!!!


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## ic3guy (Apr 25, 2010)

Should I have bought that stock...? hindsight is always 20/20. 

At least you didn't buy Nortel... or if you did...


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

It hurts even more looking at the Apple Shares today!! $427!


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## IllusionX (Mar 10, 2009)

very depressing 

the house would be paid off by now.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

csonni said:


> It hurts even more looking at the Apple Shares today!! $427!


Glad I kept my shares. Question is, when do I cash out, and can I get sacks of gold with $ signs on them?


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

you need to build a giant silo full of the, _a la _scrooge mcduck in duck tales


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

How does Revenue Canada work out the proceeds such as we're talking about? Is that considered taxable income?


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

If it's in an RRSP, whatever amount is withdrawn will be taxed, unless you withdraw to the RRSP's cash account and use it to buy other shares within that RRSP, or withdraw to another RRSP account. The idea with RRSPs is that you don't use that money until you're 65 when you have additional tax credits.

If it's in a TFSA, you already paid tax on the amount you deposited into the account. You would essentially be able to take out $330,000 tax free.

The TFSA is a great savings tool folks, I would use it as much as possible.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

csonni said:


> How does Revenue Canada work out the proceeds such as we're talking about? Is that considered taxable income?


If the shares are in a TFSA you would pay no tax. Otherwise, if I remember correctly you pay the going tax on 50% of the profit.

Ie. You paid $1000 for all your shares, paid a commision of $10 at the time, and sold them for $2000 and paid a commision of $10. 

$2000
- $1000
- $10
- $10
--------
$990 * 0.5 = 495

You pay tax on $495.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

I forgot to mention as well, that if the shares pay a dividend, and those shares are not in a TFSA, you pay tax on part of the dividend (I can't remember the formula). If the shares are Canadian, you also get to claim a tax deduction (or is it a tax credit) for part of the dividend. 

I've been doing the taxes forms using software lately so I've forgotten the formulas for dividends.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Man, the shares have shot up over $28 today. Impressive. Of course they had impressive quarterly results.


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

Kosh said:


> Man, the shares have shot up over $28 today. Impressive. Of course they had impressive quarterly results.


Debating if I should cash out and start counting my sacks of gold, or see if it goes higher...


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## Theseus (Jun 6, 2006)

The analysts are now forecasting shares to hit $500 - $650 in the next year. I'm holding


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Makes you wonder, when the rest of the world is facing such tough economic times, and Greece is about to default, why Apple is doing such brisk business. Recession? What recession? And their stuff ain't cheap either.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> Makes you wonder, when the rest of the world is facing such tough economic times, and Greece is about to default, why Apple is doing such brisk business.


The world is going further into debt because everyone is buying Apple products.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Bjornbro said:


> The world is going further into debt because everyone is buying Apple products.


Perhaps Apple should run the world then. They could declutter and simplify things that are just way too complicated right now. Hold on…maybe they already DO run the world in a more subtle way… look at the youth market. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> Perhaps Apple should run the world then.


 B-B-B-Big B-B-B-Brother?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Bjornbro said:


> B-B-B-Big B-B-B-Brother?


Yah, because the status quo is working so well. Didn't Steve Jobs have a private conference with Barack Obama a couple of items? I'm sure he must have passed along some ideas on how He would redesign the economy.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

fjnmusic said:


> Didn't Steve Jobs have a private conference with Barack Obama a couple of items?


Yep, it's called tech support. When you're the President of the United States of America, you don't just walk into an Apple Store and talk to the Mac Genius, _you get Steve Jobs to come to you._  :lmao:


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Bjornbro said:


> Yep, it's called tech support. When you're the President of the United States of America, you don't just walk into an Apple Store and talk to the Mac Genius, _you get Steve Jobs to come to you._  :lmao:


I'd imagine they have a special red iPhone set aside for such a purpose, even to get Mr. Jobs' views from the great beyond. If anyone could have figured out how to do that, Steve Jobs would be the guy.

Only problem is, Barack Obama seems pretty tied to his Blackberry...


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

except doesn't the president use a blackberry?

edit, missed the second line...


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Only problem is, Barack Obama seems pretty tied to his Blackberry...


He might use a BlackBerry, but he's been seen using an iPad and a MacBook Pro, too.


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## Kimchiboy (Nov 23, 2008)

That's interesting. Hundreds of thousands eh?


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## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

19K worth of Mac products (and that's not counting the more current models in the house that weren't on the list) ...translates to a thoroughly depressing $600K+ in stock.

I'm the idiot who decided NOT to buy Apple stock when it dropped to $88 a few years ago.


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## hillM (Jan 11, 2012)

Snowy said:


> Someone took the trouble and time to do up this chart.
> 
> It's very interesting!
> 
> Kyle Conroy's Personal Blog and Portfolio - Should I have bought that Apple Product?


Haha, nice statistic. For the individual it's really interesting, but as others pointed out, it doesn't work for everybody  If you look at apple's statistics over the years the trend is still on their side. So instead of your next apple product you might want to think about some shares ;-)


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Yah, I'd say the trend has been pretty consistent over the last few years...


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## Glipt (Aug 7, 2003)

Don't forget to adjust for the increase if the loonie. In my case would eat up almost %50 the profits. Still a good return though.


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

Glipt said:


> Don't forget to adjust for the increase if the loonie. In my case would eat up almost %50 the profits. Still a good return though.


I like your level of caution.


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## Veej (Feb 16, 2006)

Apple hit an all time new high today at $460.....guys not to late to still buy in the company that we all admire, Apple is greatly under valued...by end of Feb. I'm predicting it to hit at $500...........

Disclaimer: I'm long on Apple- hoping to see it the first Trillion Dollar Company!!


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

As much as I'd love to buy in, $460 a pop eliminates any such move. I got one kid going into college and another on the way. Should have thought about this around 20 years ago! I remember back in 1980 when I lived in Seattle, hearing about a guy named Bill Gates and crazy ideas about computers. I had a few thousand back then I could've let go, but I had no clue of what a computer really was. I was only 19 at the time and my thoughts were far from any such technology.


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## Theseus (Jun 6, 2006)

csonni said:


> $460 a pop eliminates any such move.


Check with your broker; long-gone are the days where you needed to buy lots of 100 shares at a time. Just focus on the % increase.


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## rodkin (Jan 7, 2003)

Apple is now brushing up against $500. Which makes it worth more than Microsoft and Google combined!


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Yeah I saw that. My investment fund (where my Apple shares are) is doing better than my RRSP fund.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I think we may see $500 today. And at the moment, Apple is worth $60 billion more than Exxon. It was only $45 billion ahead three hours ago.


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## melmo (Jun 29, 2006)

Wow, go Apple go!

Anyone want to pool our cash and buy a share? Like one share? Ha!


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## NFtoBC (Jun 24, 2011)

Topped up my RRSP the other day.....


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

$65 billion lead over Exxon now.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

We are now seeing a close to $70 billion dollar market cap lead between first place (Apple) and second place (Exxon). And that was a mere $45 billion lead on Thursday, a mere four days ago. Not bad for a fruit company.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Hmmm...   That reminds me of the movie Gump and his 'life is like a box of chocolates' expression but especially his reference to some Apple "fruit company" that sent him a bunch of stock or something as far as he was so little concerned or understanding about.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

pm-r said:


> Hmmm...   That reminds me of the movie Gump and his 'life is like a box of chocolates' expression but especially his reference to some Apple "fruit company" that sent him a bunch of stock or something as far as he was so little concerned or understanding about.


You guessed it! And he didn't have to worry about money ever again. :greedy:


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

An interesting chart that might help explain how big a share of the smartphone market Apple is taking over the last four years or so.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

Hmmm... interesting graph on the HTC portion if I read the graph correctly, and one seldom even hears of them.

But the Apple profit shares portion sure is impressive and BIG $$$$ for them.

Maybe Apple's next step will be to take over and control Exxon's operations etc. as well!!!


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## JCCanuck (Apr 17, 2005)

Hope my wife doesn't see this. There's a big hole in the wall of the house my wife constantly bangs her head for talking herself out of buying Apple stock years ago when they almost bottomed out.


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## pm-r (May 17, 2009)

JCCanuck said:


> Hope my wife doesn't see this. There's a big hole in the wall of the house my wife constantly bangs her head for talking herself out of buying Apple stock years ago when they almost bottomed out.


Don't let her see today's appl price then:

Dow Jones	12,878.28	0.03%
Nasdaq	2,931.83	0.02%
Technology	0.25%
AAPL	509.46	1.36%

$509.46!!!!!

And I'm in the same boat as your wife unfortunately regarding appl shares.


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## Dr T (May 16, 2009)

Snowy said:


> Someone took the trouble and time to do up this chart.
> 
> It's very interesting!
> 
> Kyle Conroy's Personal Blog and Portfolio - Should I have bought that Apple Product?


Did you have money way back then to gamble?

Do you have money now to gamble?

Any bet on stock is a gamble. Don't invest if you cannot afford to lose the money.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

JCCanuck said:


> Hope my wife doesn't see this. There's a big hole in the wall of the house my wife constantly bangs her head for talking herself out of buying Apple stock years ago when they almost bottomed out.


hmm, we have that same hole too


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

80 billion. And the hits just keep coming.


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## JCCanuck (Apr 17, 2005)

fjnmusic said:


> An interesting chart that might help explain how big a share of the smartphone market Apple is taking over the last four years or so.


Holy Crap! That's something.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Now hitting a $90 billion spread between first and second place.


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## Veej (Feb 16, 2006)

Veej said:


> Apple hit an all time new high today at $460.....guys not to late to still buy in the company that we all admire, Apple is greatly under valued...by end of Feb. I'm predicting it to hit at $500...........
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm long on Apple- hoping to see it the first Trillion Dollar Company!!


So I guess I got to up my prediction from $500 to $600 by end of Feb!!right as we speak it's in the $520 range with a day high of $526 at noon!!..

Guys I'm telling you $800 by end of year does not look too far.....

It's still not too late jump on this speeding train.....hell it may just pay your mortgage if you got enough to put in!


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

Those 25 shares I bought way back when are looking pretty good. 

Trouble is I am now sentimentally attached to them. I can't bear to sell them. So I may never see the value of the rise!


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## John Clay (Jun 25, 2006)

Veej said:


> It's still not too late jump on this speeding train.....hell it may just pay your mortgage if you got enough to put in!


It may also put you in the poor house. The current rise isn't sustainable - it will drop, and it will drop hard. Speaking as a shareholder, I can only hope to be smart enough to sell before it drops - then buy it back.

I'm predicting a peak of $550 within the next month or so. I sure hope I'm wrong though.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

> It's still not too late jump on this speeding train.....hell it may just pay your mortgage if you got enough to put in!


lol if you have enough cash to buy significant shares at the price they're at now you probably don't have a mortgage


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

probably better to find another speeding train really. This train may have already left te station.


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## broad (Jun 2, 2009)

agreed.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Apple has about a $100 billion lead over Exxon today. Simply amazing. And with iPad 3 and (probably) the new iTV coming out next week too.


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

Apple inched up to $600 per share. Amazing. From $500 to $600 in just 1 month.


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## rodkin (Jan 7, 2003)

This makes me happy I bought back in Nov. 2007, when it was a paltry $72. Even at $600, if I had more to invest right now, I'd be buying all I could.

Morgan Stanley just suggested it could hit $960 by the end of the year. Go, Apple, go!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

A 140 plus billion dollar lead over the nearest competitor (Exxon) today. Yowza!


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Now a $150 billion lead and a $600 per share price. Not too shabby.


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## slipstream (May 9, 2011)

The expensive question (either way): when is the share price overvalued? Lots of sharks in the water to think about.


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

I've never invested in stocks due to the type of investor I would be. It would consume my time, thoughts and energy. I'd always be wondering, "should I cash in now?". As good as Apple shares are right now, I can see how I'd be at that very point right now. I've got enough thoughts to deal with right now with 1 child ready for college and another right behind (some would say this is even more reason to invest in Apple shares).


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

slipstream said:


> The expensive question (either way): when is the share price overvalued? Lots of sharks in the water to think about.


The thing is, with them adding a dividend and a share buyback program (to offset employee share options) later this year, the shares become even more enticing.


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## MacGuiver (Sep 6, 2002)

My sad story. Had about 150 shares back when they were $45 a share. Cashed out at $75 and never bought again. DOH!!!!.A friend of mine hung on to his and he's making more money on the apple shares these days than he is working.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Now a $160 billion lead over Exxon.


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## MacUnited (Nov 1, 2009)

The problem now is, as with the age old wisdom in investing, when everybody is buying/talking about a company.. It soon will crash. It has no solid fundamental grounds just pure human psychology..


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

MacUnited said:


> The problem now is, as with the age old wisdom in investing, when everybody is buying/talking about a company.. It soon will crash. *It has no solid fundamental grounds* just pure human psychology..


Not really true at all, for a tech company thier fundamentals are very solid indeed:

P/E Ratio (TTM)	17.1x
EPS (TTM)	35.54
Beta	1.26

a P/E of 17 for a hot and continually growing company like Apple is actually quite low and they have substantial earnings per share and their Beta is again low for a hot growing tech company...

I wouldn't be taking a contrarian position in them right now and shorting them as I think the stock still has plenty of legs. However all good things must eventually come to an end though and that is the time to start shorting them but that time isn't now IMO. And people have been talking about Apple stock for about 4 years now and it hasn't crashed at all and it isn't just buying/talk that precipitates/is a portent for a crash if all that talk is about how their revenues just keep climbing and blowing away analysts' expectations. 

It is bad news and missing earnings expectations that will drive down a stock, that is what I am waiting for... I missed Apple on the way up but I sure want to get in on their way down when it eventually happens.


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## MacUnited (Nov 1, 2009)

That's why I included that the theory has no solid fundamental grounds.. It just keeps happening. 
But you can see the writings on the wall, I just feels that the expectation and becoming extremely high, and not sure if apple or any company for that matter can keep exceeding a higher and higher expectations. 
I remember having the same argument with a collegue about RIM, 3 years ago.. Rim had no completion then and the iPhone was simply considered a toy then. 
Anyway, I seriously don't wish that to happen to apple since everything tech I own is apple! lol
But it will be very interesting to watch what unfolds


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## Mamma (Mar 22, 2005)

Man I really want to get in the game. At $600 right now I'm a little scared to dump a big sum on them right now. Tim cook is a smart guy I think. After the last key note saying was got some good stuff coming, just the way he said that was like watch out competition. 
Who here has bought? 
I think I might do it.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Mamma said:


> Man I really want to get in the game. At $600 right now I'm a little scared to dump a big sum on them right now. Tim cook is a smart guy I think. After the last key note saying was got some good stuff coming, just the way he said that was like watch out competition.
> Who here has bought?
> I think I might do it.


Way to rich for my blood right now. I am waiting for them to make a stumble at some point in the future which, all companies inevitably do, and will cash in by shorting them on the way down.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

One good thing is that you don't have to buy so many shares to make a decent profit or long term investment.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

If they're poised to make significant gains in future, you could do much worse.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> One good thing is that *you don't have to buy so many shares* to make a decent profit or long term investment.


This is backward thinking to me... The more expensive the stock the less shares you get (for a given $ amount) and so overall the share price must increase that much more before you see any substantial return if the stock is highly priced....

If I had held onto my 100 shares of Apple when I bought them at $30, (before splits) my investment would have increased 20x now... as the stock price rises, the more *initial* investment is required to get the same kind of potential return.

If one has deep pockets, sure keep investing in Apple but eventually there reaches a point of diminishing returns and if at any point Apple fails to meet earnings expectations it is a very good shorting opportunity...

So I would rather to continue to save for when that inevitable situation arises and (potentially) gain many more times the value of my money for the same initial total $ investment.

No stock keeps going up for ever on a year over year basis and Apple has been on an exceptional run now for over 5 years... Personally I think their time is running out and by that I mean within the next 24 months -36 months... They could of course prove me wrong, but without Jobs at the helm I think their run is going to come to an end within a time frame that I would be better off to wait (relative to their current share price) by not buying it now and waiting for the the tide to turn.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

screature said:


> This is backward thinking to me... The more expensive the stock the less shares you get (for a given $ amount) and so overall the share price must increase that much more before you see any substantial return if the stock is highly priced....
> 
> If I had held onto my 100 shares of Apple when I bought them at $30, (before splits) my investment would have increased 20x now... as the stock price rises, the more *initial* investment is required to get the same kind of potential return.
> 
> ...


Maybe. But the way I see it, all you have to do is make more interest on your investment than what the banks are offering and you've already won. I suppose that means shorting the stock, but there are definitely riskier ways of making a profit. The products sell consistently well and there' smote where those came from. With only 5-10% of the desktop market, there's lots of room for growth there as well. Apple's worth has been pretty consistently growing compared to a number of other companies. Taking a look at the five year market share value chart below, investing in Apple looks like a no-brainer, even at (relatively) expensive single-share prices.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> Maybe. But the way I see it, all you have to do is make more interest on your investment than what the banks are offering and you've already won. I suppose that means shorting the stock, but there are definitely riskier ways of making a profit. The products sell consistently well and there' smote where those came from. With only 5-10% of the desktop market, there's lots of room for growth there as well. Apple's worth has been pretty consistently growing compared to a number of other companies. Taking a look at the five year market share value chart below, investing in Apple looks like a no-brainer, even at (relatively) expensive single-share prices.


Everything you just posted is basically why it is IMO not a good time to invest in Apple stock now... they are due for a fall... it may not happen now or in six months or two years, but for the price of admission one's money could be better spent elsewhere or just holding unto your cash if you are interested in taking advantage of the current position of Apple relative to where they may be 5 years form now if your funds are limited...

50 measly shares would cost $30,000 right now... I wouldn't short Apple right now nor would I buy thier shares either unless I had deep pockets, which I don't... 

Like I said I think for people without deep pockets there is money and significant money to be made from Apple but it is on their way down from where they are now and not on the up side.... even if their stock went to $1k/per share that is only a 40% increase which is relatively small compared to the 2000% increase their share value has seen over the last 5 years (splits not included).


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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2004)

screature said:


> ... it is IMO not a good time to invest in Apple stock now... they are due for a fall... [there is] significant money to be made from Apple but it is on their way down from where they are now and not on the up side.... even if their stock went to $1k/per share that is only a 40% increase which is relatively small compared to the 2000% increase their share value has seen over the last 5 years (splits not included).


Pop quiz:

Q1 What difference would it make if APPL did a 20:1 stock split? $600 per share becomes $30 per share but there are 20 times more shares outstanding. What is the impact on EPS _growth_?

Q2 What is the potential total worldwide market for tablet computers, say in the next 5 years. What market share is APPL likely to achieve. More importantly, what profit share?

Q3 What is the potential total worldwide market for smartphones, say in the next 5 years. What market share is APPL likely to achieve. More importantly, what profit share?

Hint: Q1 is irrelevant.

Think about Q2 and Q3 if you hold or are considering holding APPL.

Craig


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

i dont see apple shares as being on their way down at this point.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

WCraig said:


> Pop quiz:
> 
> Q1 What difference would it make if APPL did a 20:1 stock split? $600 per share becomes $30 per share but there are 20 times more shares outstanding. What is the impact on EPS _growth_?
> 
> ...


I'm not not at the current price, I thought I had made that clear.  If it splits... maybe.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

What difference does it make if you buy ten shares at $60 a share or one share at $600 a share? If the Company is trending upward, which a person would have to be blind not to see, then your profitability as a shareholder is exactly the same. Only difference is you can't sell off only some of your shares.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> i dont see apple shares as being on their way down at this point.


Nor do I but it takes a very significant investment at this point to see a significant return. IMO the "easy money" on the upside from investing in Apple is gone for the small investor at least until there is a split that significantly reduces the cost.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> What difference does it make if you buy ten shares at $60 a share or one share at $600 a share? If the Company is trending upward, which a person would have to be blind not to see, then your profitability as a shareholder is exactly the same. Only difference is you can't sell off only some of your shares.


Um the difference of multiples, it isn't like Apple is the only act in town, there are other investment opportunities that are trending upward as well where you can buy many multiple shares for the same amount of money than you could for those couple of Apple shares.

If you have the cash go buy Apple but it is too rich for my blood and I won't be holding it again in my portfolio any time soon.


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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2004)

screature said:


> I'm not not at the current price, I thought I had made that clear.  If it splits... maybe.





screature said:


> Nor do I but it takes a very significant investment at this point to see a significant return. IMO the "easy money" on the upside from investing in Apple is gone for the small investor at least until there is a split that significantly reduces the cost.





screature said:


> Um the difference of multiples, it isn't like Apple is the only act in town, there are other investment opportunities that are trending upward as well where you can buy many multiple shares for the same amount of money than you could for those couple of Apple shares.
> 
> If you have the cash go buy Apple but it is too rich for my blood and I won't be holding it again in my portfolio any time soon.


Buzzt. Sorry you've failed the quiz because you clearly have no understanding of the effect of a stock split. The short answer is, It has NO effect. By happenstance, Google came up with an article on Apple and a split:

Will Apple's Stock Split? - Business - Motley Fool - msnbc.com


> It never ceases to amaze me, but when I'm meeting someone new and the topic of what I do for a living comes up, there's one question I get more than any other: "So, will Apple split?" To me, it's a largely insignificant question, and Tim Cook has signaled that there is "very little support" from the company's board to split the stock.


Craig


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

WCraig said:


> Buzzt. Sorry you've failed the quiz because you clearly have no understanding of the effect of a stock split. The short answer is, It has NO effect. By happenstance, Google came up with an article on Apple and a split:
> 
> Will Apple's Stock Split? - Business - Motley Fool - msnbc.com
> 
> ...


Uhh what you seem to fail to understand is that a stock split does indeed mean nothing to an existing shareholder... on this we can definitely agree... BUT for *new stock buyers* it makes a difference... read your own link again... :lmao:

I didn't take your stupid f**king quiz in the first place BTW...

So. Riddle me this? Why do corporations perform stock splits? Let's see if you can pass? 

As I have said ALL ALONG sure if you have the cash buy Apple now but if you don't there are better upside opportunities for the *small investor*.

I have heard the same BS as you and your Motley Fool (emphasis on fool) reference before,,, ohhh about12 years ago and watched other peeps portfolios get trounced when the inevitable fall comes...

Stocks rise slowly but fall quickly, it is just a simple fact... so keep buying your Apple shares on their way up by all means as they soar into the stratosphere, if you already have them your risk is mitigated, for the new buyer of Apple shares their risk in not the same as those who already have gains to "keep them in the game" when things get rough...

I just hope not too many other people get suckered into the misbegotten rhetoric you are spreading for new small investors.

Seems you think we all have the deep pockets of institutions... Do you happen to work for or are a "financial planner" i.e. a stock/mutual fund pusher? You sure talk like one and provide the same kind of references....


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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2004)

screature said:


> Uhh what you seem to fail to understand is that a stock split does indeed mean nothing to an existing shareholders... on this we can definitely agree... BUT for *new stock buyers* it makes a difference... read your own link again... :lmao:
> 
> I didn't take your stupid f**king quiz in the first place BTW...
> 
> ...


Ah Screecher, that's what I love about you: you're aggressively ignorant. How's that new Mac Pro working out for you?

A) There used to be a good reason for stock splits when there was a punishing extra commission for split lots (anything but a multiple of 100). Nowadays with low fixed commissions for online trading that really doesn't matter.

B) Let's hear some examples of companies with better upside potential than Apple. Compare those against the upside possibilities in the smartphone and tablet markets. C'mon Screecher. Even just one company with momentum in a market that has anywhere near the growth potential.

C) $10,000 is a small investment, these days; it gets you 15 shares of APPL. If they split 20:1, it would make no difference. You would still be a "small investor" buying $10,000 worth of anything regardless of the number of shares that gets you. Consider the classic example, Berkshire Hathaway currently trading at $122,659 per share. Yesterday, the high-low price range was nearly $1,000! which sounds like a lot until you look at the percentage--less than 1%. 

Were you trying to insult me by calling me a "stock/mutual fund pusher"? In a thread about Apple *shares*, that's pretty weak.

Craig


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

WCraig said:


> Ah Screecher, that's what I love about you: you're aggressively ignorant. How's that new Mac Pro working out for you?
> 
> A) There used to be a good reason for stock splits when there was a punishing extra commission for split lots (anything but a multiple of 100). Nowadays with low fixed commissions for online trading that really doesn't matter.
> 
> ...


Corporations split stock for reasons of investor psychology so as to make their stock seem more affordable and or desirable thereby (hopefully) increasing small investor activity. Apple has split their stock on 3 occasions with the most recent being Feb. 28 2005. I already agreed with the fact that a split has no effect on the value of the company so I don't know why you seem to feel the need to keep pointing it out, it is obvious.

$10000 is not a small investment... for many that would constitute their life's savings so it is quite clear you have no idea who a small investor is, $1000 would be a small investment... 

You're going to talk about Berkshire Hathaway when talking about small investors... that's really quite the laugh...

As for your talk of momentum in the market see that is what sets investors up for a fall I'm not one of those guys who goes chasing "momentum" that is the very thing that brought about the tech bubble and crash. So I'm not about to push any stock on anyone because of it's momentum. 

I look at fundamentals, of which Apples are generally excellent at 17x earnings they are a blue chip in the tech world, (now that they will be offering a tiny dividend even more so), but for the small investor I would suggest that they look for stocks with P/Es that are closer to the 1-10x range and pay out a higher dividend in the range of 3-5% or higher if you can find it these days. If you don't have much to invest you probably have even less to lose so a dividend is a nice hedge against price fluctuations.

As for trying to insult you by asking if you are a financial planner I guess that is up for you to decide how you feel about them. Personally my experience with them is that most are pretty much just sales people who attend seminars and push the "latest and great" and really don't give a rats ass about setting up an investment plan that meets with an investors needs and risk to reward tolerance. So you decide if the question was an insult.

Unlike your comment "you're aggressively ignorant" which was without doubt an insult but coming from you it means zilch to me.


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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2004)

screature said:


> Corporations split stock for reasons of investor psychology so as to make their stock seem more affordable and or desirable thereby (hopefully) increasing small investor activity. Apple has split their stock on 3 occasions with the most recent being Feb. 28 2005. I already agreed with the fact that a split has no effect on the value of the company so I don't know why you seem to feel the need to keep pointing it out, it is obvious.
> 
> $10000 is not a small investment... for many that would constitute their life's savings so it is quite clear you have no idea who a small investor is, $1000 would be a small investment...
> 
> ...


If you only have $1,000 to invest, you're not a small investor--you're broke. If your life savings are $10,000, you have no business being in the stock market. Go save some money and come back later. I find this wonderfully ironic coming from the person who insists you can't get real work done without a Mac Pro (*minimum* $2,599 + monitor + RAM + HD ...). 

And you've still ignored APPL's prospects. The upside in tablets and smartphones in enormous but you think everyone should play it safe and invest in low-growth (P/E ratio 10 or less) that pay dividends. Take phones. There are, what, 7 or 8 dumb phones sold in the world right now for every smart phone. That ratio is falling like a rock, though, with no sign of stopping. You don't think that presents an opportunity for APPL? Your 'gut' tells you they're due for a fall? Great, stay on the sidelines but don't expect that others have to believe you. 

Craig


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

$170 billion spread. And growing. This is not a company to bet against.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

WCraig said:


> If you only have $1,000 to invest, you're not a small investor--you're broke. If your life savings are $10,000, you have no business being in the stock market. Go save some money and come back later. I find this wonderfully ironic coming from the person who insists you can't get real work done without a Mac Pro (*minimum* $2,599 + monitor + RAM + HD ...).
> 
> And you've still ignored APPL's prospects. The upside in tablets and smartphones in enormous but you think everyone should play it safe and invest in low-growth (P/E ratio 10 or less) that pay dividends. Take phones. There are, what, 7 or 8 dumb phones sold in the world right now for every smart phone. That ratio is falling like a rock, though, with no sign of stopping. You don't think that presents an opportunity for APPL? Your 'gut' tells you they're due for a fall? Great, stay on the sidelines but don't expect that others have to believe you.
> 
> Craig


Must be nice living in your ivory tower with your head in the clouds and not being in touch with real world small investors, everyone starts somewhere...


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> $170 billion spread. And growing. *This is not a company to bet against.*


Agreed.


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## WCraig (Jul 28, 2004)

screature said:


> Everything you just posted is basically why it is IMO not a good time to invest in Apple stock now... they are due for a fall... it may not happen now or in six months or two years, but for the price of admission one's money could be better spent elsewhere or just holding unto your cash if you are interested in taking advantage of the current position of Apple relative to where they may be 5 years form now if your funds are limited...
> 
> 50 measly shares would cost $30,000 right now... I wouldn't short Apple right now nor would I buy thier shares either unless I had deep pockets, which I don't...
> 
> Like I said I think for people without deep pockets there is money and significant money to be made from Apple but it is *on their way down* from where they are now and *not on the up side*.... even if their stock went to $1k/per share that is only a 40% increase which is relatively small compared to the 2000% increase their share value has seen over the last 5 years (splits not included).





fjnmusic said:


> $170 billion spread. And growing. This is not a company to bet against.





screature said:


> Agreed.


Huh!?! Make up your mind, Screecher. APPL good or APPL bad?

Craig


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

$180 billion difference as of this moment.


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## jamesB (Jan 28, 2007)

Just now heard on the radio that Apple shares are forecast to go to $1000, I believe he said next year.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Yes that was a from a firm that is commencing new coverage of Apple, funny they actually say $1001 in their News Release... I guess after that the bottom falls out.



> Apple shares to soar to $1,001, says analyst
> 1 hour ago - Reuters
> Apple shares to soar to $1,001, says analyst
> 
> ...


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

WCraig said:


> Huh!?! Make up your mind, Screecher. APPL good or APPL bad?Craig


I believe the shares are AAPL


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> $180 billion difference as of this moment.


Make that a $185 billion spread this morning. What does it say when a few billion dollars up or down becomes the equivalent of a rounding error?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

And another update: that's now a $191 billion gap between first place and second place. That's like $6 billion earned SINCE THIS MORNING.

Also, it appears AAPL shares are now worth more per share than even Google (GOOG).


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> And another update: that's now a $191 billion gap between first place and second place. That's like *$6 billion earned* SINCE THIS MORNING.
> 
> Also, it appears AAPL shares are now worth more per share than even Google (GOOG).


While I know where you are coming from, there was not $6B *earned* since this morning, there was a market cap increase of $6B since this morning... a whole different kettle of fish altogether.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

screature said:


> While know where you are coming from, there was not $6B *earned* since this morning, there was a market cap increase of $6B since this morning... a whole different kettle of fish altogether.


Is it really though? Like when your line of credit has been extended by $1000? You still have more money available to you. Or when your investments just increased in value. The money is yours if you choose to use it…or say go and buy another company. The point is that these are HUGE increases/decreases in net worth over very short periods of time for the average mortal.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

6 billion in that short of time is insane.


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## NFtoBC (Jun 24, 2011)

fjnmusic said:


> Is it really though? Like when your line of credit has been extended by $1000? You still have more money available to you. Or when your investments just increased in value. The money is yours if you choose to use it…or say go and buy another company. The point is that these are HUGE increases/decreases in net worth over very short periods of time for the average mortal.


Sorry, really poor analogy. Money available "if you choose to use it" is not earnings. An increase in your line of credit does not mean you have "earned" anything other than the ability to get further in debt!

Investment increase in profit due to increasing share value is only on paper, until you cash it in. The eventual dividend payment is earnings, which you can spend, possibly on more shares.....

These are not HUGE increases in net worth over very short periods, unless you own many shares. While on a percentage basis, these are great increases, they still have not matched Teck which grew 1800% in the 22 months between March 2009 and January 2011. You would have had to be holding AAPl since 2005 to match that meteoric increase. 

While I understand your enthusiasm, I recommend tempering it with accuracy.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

NFtoBC said:


> Sorry, really poor analogy. Money available "if you choose to use it" is not earnings. An increase in your line of credit does not mean you have "earned" anything other than the ability to get further in debt!
> 
> Investment increase in profit due to increasing share value is only on paper, until you cash it in. The eventual dividend payment is earnings, which you can spend, possibly on more shares.....
> 
> ...


Maybe so, but this company is still worth more than any other company on the planet, and they don't appear to be slowing down either.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Looks like a $208 billion spread now. Yikes.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Looks like a $208 billion spread now. Yikes.


Sorry, wrong chart.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

If you invested in Apple around Christmas, you're set to *double* your money in the coming weeks at this rate. :greedy:


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

And we're back down to a $198 billion spread. What's a mere $10 billion between friends? All in a day's work.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

An article with some investing advice and a look at the cult of Apple.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/05/26/is-apple-too-popular-for-its-own-good.aspx


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## jimright3003 (Jun 4, 2012)

It is really informative link given for apple's product.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

This:

http://allthingsd.com/20120604/appl...ew-tv-apps-platform/?reflink=ATD_yahoo_ticker

If it works, this is the AppleTV strategy that could be the winner and put Apple over $1000 in market share value.


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

Quite a drop in Apple shares lately. Ouch.


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## MacUnited (Nov 1, 2009)

I really scratch my head at the hyper everything that surrounds apple.. when samsung sold 30 million phones it was a milestone.. when apple sells 47.8 million, it's a disappointment.. 
this however might indicate the final dot in the apple stock's story, will it be another RIM decline?


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

MacUnited said:


> I really scratch my head at the hyper everything that surrounds apple.. when samsung sold 30 million phones it was a milestone.. when apple sells 47.8 million, it's a disappointment..
> this however might indicate the final dot in the apple stock's story, *will it be another RIM decline?*


I doubt it. At somepoint every product saturates the market not everyone is going to buy a new one each 1 or every 2 years. Most I would say wait for contract to run out or are fine with what they use. I see many 3G or 3GS still being used. I ask and they say why upgrade it does what I want it to do which is take a call and get email and more.

So at somepoint only crazed people like most of us will buy the new device. Also they didn't sell as many iMac due to supply contraints so there is that as well. It may take another 6 months to catch up.

And who is to say that the max price of the stock in the last year was not over priced. :greedy::greedy:


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## makuribu (Oct 26, 2005)

*The rational market? Where?*

It's hilarious (or maddening) to watch the Wall/Bay St chicken little types, who know nothing about technology, screwing up the share prices. They promote stocks with price/earning ratios of hundreds, and AAPL's P/E is ~10, but it's too expensive. It sure smacks of manipulation.
"Is this the end for Apple?". Sure. It has $150 billion in the bank and quarterly sales of $50 billion and quarterly profits of $13 billion. 
Not only will Apple go bankrupt next week, but all the iDevices will suddenly stop working! Just like Pontiacs and Saturns and Saabs suddenly disappeared in a puff of dust when GM killed the names. 

AAPL at $500 a share pays better annual dividends than $500 gets in a savings account.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

And this from Tim



> Team,
> 
> We’ve just reported another *record setting quarter*, thanks to everyone’s incredible hard work and focus. *We sold over 75 million iOS devices in the holiday quarter alone*, which is a testament to the strength of Apple’s innovation. Please join me for an employee communications meeting tomorrow at 10 a.m. Pacific time in the auditorium of De Anza 3. We’ve created a space on AppleWeb where you can submit your questions in advance, and we’ll do our best to answer as many of them as we can during the meeting. The meeting will be broadcast live throughout Cupertino and at many other Apple locations. Please check AppleWeb for details.
> 
> Tim


So the worry to me is just from :greedy: people. :--ptptptptp


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## MacUnited (Nov 1, 2009)

This is what I was referring to when I said I scratch my head looking at the numbers.. the problem is, even though everybody knows that apple is not the only player in the market anymore, and it's been a fact like a year old with the introduction of S3 and the whole other cheaper, not too bad phones.. yet the "market" still expects apple to sell OVER 50 million phones in 3 months?!!! that's like more than the whole population of Canada!! lol they ended up selling just about that and the stock drops 10% !! I can see a 3-5% drop which is the normal for a stock that just about missed the forecast.. but 10%?? that might indicate something more serious, investors are not willing to hold on to apple anymore... I honestly sincerely hope i'm wrong though 
I'm speaking of the stock not the company.. might be a big difference now


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## digitddog (Jul 5, 2006)

The challenge with Apple is that it's a pure innovation company, so its shares are bought and sold on the sizzle. There's little to prevent well-funded competitors from taking its ideas, copying them and effectively stealing the sizzle, so Apple has to constantly innovate. Companies like Microsoft (with Office) and Google (with search and Gmail), have software or serviceware products that become habituated by end users, so these companies could stop innovating today and still milk their products for several years. Not so with Apple. 

Just checked the P/E ration of Apple. It's around 10. Google is 23(!) and Microsoft is around 15. Go figure.


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## spoonie (Nov 25, 2007)

"Not so with Apple"

we'll see. the interesting thing is whether Apple goes bananas on R&D spending or not. gotta keep the crazy ideas coming down the pipe to realize the good ones


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## digitddog (Jul 5, 2006)

I'm not sure how they do it, but Apple has been a super innovative company without ever spending a lot on R&D, at least during Steve Jobs' tenure.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

WCraig said:


> If you only have $1,000 to invest, you're not a small investor--you're broke. If your life savings are $10,000, you have no business being in the stock market. Go save some money and come back later. I find this wonderfully ironic coming from the person who insists you can't get real work done without a Mac Pro (*minimum* $2,599 + monitor + RAM + HD ...).
> 
> And you've still ignored APPL's prospects. The upside in tablets and smartphones in enormous but you think everyone should play it safe and invest in low-growth (P/E ratio 10 or less) that pay dividends. Take phones. There are, what, 7 or 8 dumb phones sold in the world right now for every smart phone. That ratio is falling like a rock, though, with no sign of stopping. You don't think that presents an opportunity for APPL? Your 'gut' tells you they're due for a fall? Great, stay on the sidelines but don't expect that others have to believe you.
> 
> Craig



Seems that the financial wizard was wrong, at least in the short term... As I said shorting Apple stocks was the way to go...

Here is a piece of crow for you WCraig...










Hope you enjoy it, I hear it is better with Tabasco sauce.


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## csonni (Feb 8, 2001)

Anyone buying lately since the split? It's gone up $3 a share since. Analysts say it will shoot high again. At almost $100 a share, it will take a chunk of cash for 100 shares but could be worth it especially if the analysts are correct.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

csonni said:


> Anyone buying lately since the split? It's gone up $3 a share since. Analysts say it will shoot high again. At almost $100 a share, it will take a chunk of cash for 100 shares but could be worth it especially if the analysts are correct.


It was a smart split actually. If it hits $100 (which is psychologically much more realistic now) then it also hits $700 under the old system, which is near record territory. Maybe that Timmy knows what he's doing after all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

csonni said:


> Anyone buying lately since the split? It's gone up $3 a share since. Analysts say it will shoot high again. At almost $100 a share, it will take a chunk of cash for 100 shares but could be worth it especially if the analysts are correct.





fjnmusic said:


> It was a smart split actually. If it hits $100 (which is psychologically much more realistic now) then it also hits $700 under the old system, which is near record territory. Maybe that Timmy knows what he's doing after all.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not buying yet. 

I need to see Apple's roadmap going forward before I do that, made some good money shorting them, I don't want that to go to waste.


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