# Hey MacBook Air Haters!



## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Macenstein | MacBook Air holds 2 spots in Amazon’s Top 10

That's the #3 and #10 spots if you can't see it.
tptptptp


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

???? - no image - just the dreaded blue box with a question mark in the centre... 

WTF


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

yeah, i don't see anything either.. this thread lost all credibility. 

whatever, people are allowed not to like a product, bitch about it, whatever.. not everyone has to fall in love with every product a company makes.

furthermore, what difference does it make if it's number x or number y on a website, do you think that's going to change someone's opinion? "oh, it's popular on this website, hmm... maybe i was all wrong with the reasons why i didn't like it... i think i'll go buy one now...."


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

Thread FAIL!


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

I fixed it! Sorry bout that.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

kloan said:


> furthermore, what difference does it make if it's number x or number y on a website, do you think that's going to change someone's opinion? "oh, it's popular on this website, hmm... maybe i was all wrong with the reasons why i didn't like it... i think i'll go buy one now...."


well, yes, actually. 

Nah, just kidding. I mention this not to persuade people who've already irrationally convinced themselves they hate it without even having so much as touched one, nor to shame the closeminded.

This one is aimed solely at those people who predicted it would be a flop. Thank heavens those people don't run Apple.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

chas_m said:


> well, yes, actually.
> 
> Nah, just kidding. I mention this not to persuade people who've already irrationally convinced themselves they hate it without even having so much as touched one, nor to shame the closeminded.
> 
> This one is aimed solely at those people who predicted it would be a flop. Thank heavens those people don't run Apple.


Irrational? My you are certainly full of yourself. 

It's not even out of the gates and you've already claimed it to be a winner. By the way, you've got a wet spot on your pants. :lmao:


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## monokitty (Jan 26, 2002)

Meh. The MBA won't be doin' it for me regardless of how well it's ranked or liked by others. The design and concept is cool, and I'll give it that, but that's about it.


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

I wouldn't buy the MacBook Air...
But I might be interested in an external 64 gb Solid State hard drive with Firewire.

Dave


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## wcg (Oct 13, 2007)

I've been almost afraid to say that I really like the MBA. I think it's a real design achievement for Apple. I'm sure they thought a lot about disc/no disc and single USB vs multiple (or no FW). That being said, if I was going to spend the money I would go for the MBP or a loaded MB just because I don't travel that much any more and don't need that ultimate portability. 

Since I'm admitting that I like the MBA, I can say that I really am interested in AppleTV now since it will support DD 5.1 and HD rentals.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

I'd get one if it came with a 160GB internal in a heartbeat... I travel around with my laptop a bit and while my MBP isn't terrible, there are times when you want to use something small that won't attract a whole lot of attention.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

The first thing I thought when I saw the thread title and Amazon list reference, was that chas_m was throwing that out specifically to all those who predicted sales of the Air would crash.

I think chas_m and everyone else has already made their for-or-against arguments about the Air in other threads.
What I gather from all the comments being posted again in _this _thread, is that this machine is producing a lot of interest, no matter where people stand.

For the record, I really like the AirBook!


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

SoyMac, thanks for "getting it."

I have no problem with people saying the MacBook Air doesn't meet their needs, or they don't like this or that element of it (though I'm happy to correct people who post MISinformation about it). I'm unlikely to buy one for myself, too. However, I at least understand that MY criteria shouldn't be the be-all and end-all driving the company's design decisions. My wife, for example, would LOVE a MacBook Air -- for her uses of a computer (highly internet and wireless driven) it's as though Apple READ HER MIND for what she's looking for in a portable. In her opinion, the only way they could have made it better is if it came with Snood and Bejeweled PRE-LOADED. 

What I have a problem with is people who predict it will flop because it doesn't meet their own personal power user fantasy wish-list, all the features of which would be utterly impossible or at least impractical to stuff into a laptop of ANY size or weight. WAAAY too much of that line of blinkered thinking to be found (particularly outside of ehMac, I'm glad to say).

The Amazon stats are usually a good "reality check" and indeed are proving so now -- given that they don't even count things like the number of pre-orders from the Apple Store and all other vendors, I'll go so far as to make this bold prediction:

By the time Apple issues it's NEXT quarterly report (not the one on Jan 22nd, the one after that) I predict Apple will have sold at least half as many MacBook Air computers as they sold IN TOTAL of the G4 Cube (which, btw, was about 300,000). IOW, I say they'll sell 150,000 Airs by the end of March.

Of course, by then this squabble will be forgotten in the rush to dump on the future iPhone 2 as "underpowered" and "lame" since it cannot speak GPS directions to you and it STILL lacks a FW800 port or direct porn -- sorry, AVI/DIVX -- playback options.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

I really like the MBA. It meets my needs exactly, but then I've been mourning the death of the Duo line since it happened. As soon as admin confirms my PD allowance, I'm ordering! :clap:


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

<slaps head>

-another- thread????


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## An Old Soul (Apr 24, 2006)

I both love the MBA, _and_ own an Apple TV. As a web designer, the MBA will more than do what I need it to, the only issue I'll have is the smaller hard drive, which I hope to swap myself when the time's right.


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## Phat Bastard (Jan 3, 2003)

The more I think about this, the more I'm beginning to agree that the MBA will not be a flop.

When I first saw it, I thought wow, what an underwhelming computer. It's crippled for so many reasons (smallish, inaccessible hard drive; slow processor speeds; irreplaceable battery; no optical drive; only one USB port). And the technology that will have the most impact on laptop design in the future, the solid-state drive, is ridiculously overpriced. I initially thought this computer is too much of a niche model: those that will overpay for sexiness and sacrifice capability.

Then I started thinking: that's exactly what Apple computers are supposed to be. They are supposed to look great, which translates into fun to use. They are supposed to just get the job done with as little overhead as possible and be easy to use. The MBA actually meets these criteria beautifully. The vast majority of computer users don't need 100's of GB's of hard drive space, or a bunch of ports for peripherals, or the fastest CPU. Most people use their laptops for surfing, email and iLife. While most of us here are computer-literate enough (and picky enough?) to look at the specs closely and want the best machine, the market Apple has always targeted doesn't care that much.

Having said that, I think Apple made some significant mistakes with this machine. The lack of an optical drive is a bigger deal than people think. Not only for installing software--doesn't Apple want MBA owners to buy and install iLife and iWork?!?--but most importantly for watching DVD's. Sure, you can rent them now, but many people have DVD collections that suddenly you can't watch on your MBA. Plus if you were to rip them to iTunes, you'd run out of hard drive space awfully quick on the MBA. The MBA is supposed to be great for travellers, what happens when you want to watch a DVD on a flight??

Secondly, the lack of a swappable battery is a huge mistake. My Macbook's battery has been replaced twice. Both times this was done at the Genius Bar, so what happens when the MBA battery dies? It won't be such an easy swap, will it? Or are you telling me Apple has finally gotten its act together and made perfect laptop batteries? Not likely. Or what about long trips? You can't buy an extra battery because you can't replace it.

I have a feeling that the MBA will sell pretty well, but in a few months when the batteries start dying, and when people wake up to the lack of an optical drive, there will be a lot of angry MBA owners out there.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

what does it matter really? If you like it buy one, if you don't don't. If they sell well, then it'll be a success, if not then Apple will do something else.
I really am a little baffled by what seems to me to be a need to be loyal to Apple. This is why Mac users are sometimes unfairly characterized as religious fanatics.

It's a huge company. It sells stuff. We buy their stuff cause it's good stuff, and we pay a premium because we think it's worth it. It is a business relationship, nothing more.

Rant over.


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## garf1108 (May 30, 2006)

I wholeheartedly agree with mc3251


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> What I have a problem with is people who predict it will flop because it doesn't meet their own personal power user fantasy wish-list, all the features of which would be utterly impossible or at least impractical to stuff into a laptop of ANY size or weight. WAAAY too much of that line of blinkered thinking to be found (particularly outside of ehMac, I'm glad to say).


Yeah, in making a small notebook it is about compromises, and I think Apple did well with this one in their choice of compromises, especially when you see how it slots into the total Mac notebook lineup. The old 12" PB was 4.6 pounds, but now you can get a MB at 5 pounds, only slightly heavier, and it is a very capable machine, easily matching the old PB. 

Apple seems to have looked at how a certain segment _really_ use their Mac, rather than start with specs. For people who d office driven work, an 80GB drive is usually fine. The Air has all the power needed for presentations and admin related work, and is fine too for watching movies etc while travelling. When back at the office it would take moments to plug in an external monitor, and keyboard and mouse via a USB hub, and you have a cool setup.




> Having said that, I think Apple made some significant mistakes with this machine. The lack of an optical drive is a bigger deal than people think. Not only for installing software--doesn't Apple want MBA owners to buy and install iLife and iWork?!?--but most importantly for watching DVD's. Sure, you can rent them now, but many people have DVD collections that suddenly you can't watch on your MBA. Plus if you were to rip them to iTunes, you'd run out of hard drive space awfully quick on the MBA. The MBA is supposed to be great for travellers, what happens when you want to watch a DVD on a flight??
> 
> Secondly, the lack of a swappable battery is a huge mistake. My Macbook's battery has been replaced twice. Both times this was done at the Genius Bar, so what happens when the MBA battery dies? It won't be such an easy swap, will it? Or are you telling me Apple has finally gotten its act together and made perfect laptop batteries? Not likely. Or what about long trips? You can't buy an extra battery because you can't replace it.


I think it's really important to look thoroughly through the specs and the probable target markets. Most people who choose an Air will have another Mac or PC in their home and/or office, thus they can use the Remote Disc feature, or the can purchase the plug in Superdrive. How often do people really use / need such a drive? Not often if they are office based.

I would argue that the HDD space is adequate for most office based work and a bunch of movies - and let's face it, most people don't keep a lot of movies on a notebook: they are delete them or use an external drive to store them.

The battery is swappable and costs US$129, the same as the MB and MBP: it's just that Apple or an approved technician have to do the work. Again, for real world use this is fine. By the time the battery weakens most people replace the battery, or the Mac, anyway. For flights, get the airline power adaptor. Over the next few years, power point on aircraft will become much more common.

As with all purchaes, it's important to think of how you will _really_ use your Mac. If you really need additional features, you have other choices. But often, people buy a Mac that is way overboard for their needs.

I think the Air is beautifully designed, but more importantly, I think it is really well though out for it's target market and in relationship to the Mac notebook lineup.


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## gwillikers (Jun 19, 2003)

Phat Bastard said:


> Secondly, the lack of a swappable battery is a huge mistake.


Apparently it's going to be a piece of cake to swap the battery.


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## Mrmann2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I dont think I would buy the macbook Air ... for the plain and simple fact that I like the CD drive and the more then one USB. yes I know its meant for the wireless world, but its just not for me, im looking to get a Macbook pro, if and when they do come down in price. My prediction is that in the next 3 months the Macbook Pro will be at least 150-200 cheaper then its current price...


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

I wonder if the 64 gb solid state drive is upgradeable to a 128 gb solid state drive.

Dave


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Mrmann2008 said:


> I dont think I would buy the macbook Air ... for the plain and simple fact that I like the CD drive and the more then one USB. yes I know its meant for the wireless world, but its just not for me, im looking to get a Macbook pro, if and when they do come down in price. My prediction is that in the next 3 months the Macbook Pro will be at least 150-200 cheaper then its current price...


Never... if the MBP does become $200 cheaper, they will simply pack in $200 more worth of stuff. It's good to dream though. Dreaming's good. 

I hope the hard drive is as easy to swap, even if it means getting it to a local technician and getting a 160GB HD in that way... I mean if they can get one in an iPod they can surely get one in the MacBook Air right?


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## jonmon (Feb 15, 2002)

dolawren said:


> I wonder if the 64 gb solid state drive is upgradeable to a 128 gb solid state drive.
> 
> Dave


:O:O:O
oh man the price 
lol


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

I'd like it if they went the other direction with the SSD drive; Smaller. 

For the few apps that my laptop is used for, a 32gig SSD drive would do the trick and perhaps come in a lot cheaper than the current SSD option. Even if we don't take in to consideration that they'd be easier to make, they should be a $500 option instead of the current $1000.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

dolawren said:


> I wonder if the 64 gb solid state drive is upgradeable to a 128 gb solid state drive.
> 
> Dave


It'll never sell. It doesn't come with a screen, nor a keyboard, nor a power supply, nor a ... :lmao:


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Phat Bastard said:


> Then I started thinking: that's exactly what Apple computers are supposed to be. They are supposed to look great, which translates into fun to use. They are supposed to just get the job done with as little overhead as possible and be easy to use. The MBA actually meets these criteria beautifully. The vast majority of computer users don't need 100's of GB's of hard drive space, or a bunch of ports for peripherals, or the fastest CPU. Most people use their laptops for surfing, email and iLife. While most of us here are computer-literate enough (and picky enough?) to look at the specs closely and want the best machine, the market Apple has always targeted doesn't care that much.


Ah, enlightenment!! 

Very well put btw.



> The lack of an optical drive is a bigger deal than people think. Not only for installing software--doesn't Apple want MBA owners to buy and install iLife and iWork?!?--but most importantly for watching DVD's.


I believe -- and I could be wrong about this -- but I believe that the MBA is serving notice to the industry that Apple expects to do more software installing and movie-watching via download, eliminating the "extra" costs of discs and packaging. How "green" is that?? 

Imagine for a moment that you've decided you need to buy a copy of iWork. You could get in your car and drive to go get it -- or order it and wait a week for it to arrive -- but the trial software already on your computer is FULLY FUNCTIONAL but for a simple serial number. Wouldn't it be better to just log onto their site, debit $69* to them and receive the unlock code instantly? You bet it would!

*I'm assuming a bit of a discount here due to cost savings over a packaged version.

You want hard media? They'll send that to ya, sure, for another $10. But Time Machine and/or backup systems like that take care of that for you, so really who needs hard media that much (and you could make one yourself with the add-on burner if you did, right?)?



> Sure, you can rent them now, but many people have DVD collections that suddenly you can't watch on your MBA. Plus if you were to rip them to iTunes, you'd run out of hard drive space awfully quick on the MBA. The MBA is supposed to be great for travellers, what happens when you want to watch a DVD on a flight??


I think Apple's vision includes a large central repository for these kinds of things, but for myself when on a trip I certainly pre-pick out a few titles I want to watch rather than lug my entire DVD library around with me, and if the titles exist as digital copies on my Time Capsule (let's say) I can surely pick and copy a few files to wirelessly copy onto the HD for the trip. Better yet, I can rent movies before I leave the ground and they are "magically" deleted upon my finishing watching them. Way better option if you're traveling light.

[battery replacement rant snipped as I think it's been established now that this will be a non-issue going forward]


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## Lawrence (Mar 11, 2003)

jonmon said:


> :O:O:O
> oh man the price
> lol


Imagine that same 128 gb solid state drive inside a future camcorder.


Dave


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

*Crave gives it the thumbs down*

The MacBook Air is the Cube 2.0 | Crave : The gadget blog

_When I saw the MacBook Air in person this week at Macworld Expo, I was having a hard time figuring out what about it seemed so familiar. Then I remembered. The G4 Cube. "Overpriced and underconfigured" were the words we used to describe it in our review in 2000, and many of the same complaints could be applied directly to the MacBook Air._

Macbook Air: The downside - The Unofficial Apple Weblog (TUAW)


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

da_jonesy said:


> The MacBook Air is the Cube 2.0 | Crave : The gadget blog
> 
> _When I saw the MacBook Air in person this week at Macworld Expo, I was having a hard time figuring out what about it seemed so familiar. Then I remembered. The G4 Cube. "Overpriced and underconfigured" were the words we used to describe it in our review in 2000, and many of the same complaints could be applied directly to the MacBook Air._
> 
> Macbook Air: The downside - The Unofficial Apple Weblog (TUAW)


A clear demonstration that they just don't get it. 

All laptops are overpriced and underconfigured. Just compare them to a desktop machine. Desktops are cheaper, have more expansion, power, larger screen, etc. A real pain to carry around though. The MBA is a lighter weight laptop. It gives up a few things that people don't have to have in order to do that. 

I'm still torn between the MPA and MBP. There's nothing really missing for me on the MPA, I don't have to have a optical drive or Firewire support (although I'd prefer that the FW port was there). Not sure about dropping a couple inches from my screen though. Also don't like the glossy screen. The CPU is likely plenty fast for what I need, but I still have reservations about going with a 1.6 Ghz when I could have 2.2Ghz. I think I prefer the MBP's keyboard, but the MBA's touch pad.


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## JSvo (Nov 12, 2007)

Let's face it, the only real downside of the MBA, for it's intended audience, is the price. Other than that, for it's intended audience, it's great.

That said, I'm not it's intended audience. But I see how awesome it is for those people who desire its greatest qualities. What I'm hoping for, is that some of the ideas expressed in the MBA filter into the other notebook lines, and the industry as a whole. The shift in direction that Apple is espousing with this product is very interesting, and makes me really curious, and optimistic, about the future of personal technology.

And I think Crave and related publications have it all wrong; Apple learned greatly from the Newton and the Cube. This product will be a definite success.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

And how many of its 'intended' audience will have to personally dig up the shekels for one? Even if they do, it could well be a tax deductible expense.

Or am I picking out the wrong 'intended' audience here?


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

I think it will be an expensive toy for those so inclined. It would be pretty much useless for myself. The glossy screen is the first killer, since I use my iBook in a number of situations where lighting is not optimum, like at the coffee pub, or doing presentations. I could get away with the smallish hard drive, but without Firewire, I could not really use an external. I could use USB, but that is rather slow, though I suppose it would be passable for small files.

The lack of an optical drive is the real killer. I do use my machines for music, so the lack of being able to play CDs, or for that matter, DVDs, is a real disappointment. Plus, I can not imagine the difficulties in changing the OS, or installing software, or whatever. I also understand that the USB modems are not supported under Leopard, so yet another item that is unusable.

So I leave it to those who can find utility in such a limited machine. It is far too expensive for what you get. In this way, it is like the G4 Cube, which I really did like when it came out, but was about four times the price that I would have been willing to pay. At least you could do things with the G4 Cube, and that is the real difference with the Macbook Air, which is a machine that you can do far too little with. It will just be an Apple collectible item, like the 20th Anniversary Mac - valuable because they will not make many, and they will carry a degree of desirability for many years to come.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

Snapple Quaffer said:


> And how many of its 'intended' audience will have to personally dig up the shekels for one? Even if they do, it could well be a tax deductible expense.
> 
> Or am I picking out the wrong 'intended' audience here?


What is your 'intended' audience? 

Obviously, it's a second computer. It needs another machine for doing the remote optical drive (or buy the external) and doesn't have the horsepower/expansion of a typical desktop. 

To me, it's folks that travel a lot and shedding a couple pounds really helps. It's also me, who doesn't make their laptop work too hard. I use mine on my couch mainly. Great for browsing, email, IM/chat. I'm forever picking up and putting down the laptop though. It would be nice to have a machine that is 1/2 the weight. I'm also hoping it runs cooler than the MBP so that it's more comfortable. 

Oh, also the folks that want the latest and coolest technology.

As to who can afford it. Well, business folks can. Wealthy techies can. Can the 'average joe'. No, it's not cost effective. A macbook will work just as well at a significant savings. Or a Windows Laptop which tend to be really inexpensive. Unfortunately not everybody can afford a Mac and especially not their elite systems like the MBA and Pros.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Atroz said:


> *All laptops are overpriced and underconfigured*. Just compare them to a desktop machine. Desktops are cheaper, have more expansion, power, larger screen, etc. A real pain to carry around though. The MBA is a lighter weight laptop. It gives up a few things that people don't have to have in order to do that.


Bravo!! Hear hear!!


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> without Firewire, I could not really use an external. I could use USB, but that is rather slow, though I suppose it would be passable for small files.


For most ordinary users and uses (syncing an iPod, for example), the performance penalty for using USB 2 is barely noticeable. If you really need FW's better performance, you really aren't part of the target market for this machine.



> The lack of an optical drive is the real killer. I do use my machines for music, so the lack of being able to play CDs, or for that matter, DVDs, is a real disappointment. Plus, I can not imagine the difficulties in changing the OS, or installing software, or whatever.


External drives, wirelessly shared drives, downloads, etc. 




> I also understand that the USB modems are not supported under Leopard, so yet another item that is unusable.


Untrue. Apple still sells these modems for its current computers.



> So I leave it to those who can find utility in such a limited machine. It is far too expensive for what you get. In this way, it is like the G4 Cube, which I really did like when it came out, but was about four times the price that I would have been willing to pay. At least you could do things with the G4 Cube, and that is the real difference with the Macbook Air, which is a machine that you can do far too little with. It will just be an Apple collectible item, like the 20th Anniversary Mac - valuable because they will not make many, and they will carry a degree of desirability for many years to come.


It doesn't suit your own needs and you consider it too expensive, therefore it will fail? Specious logic, plain and simple.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

I am in the market for an MBA once it is released. This will fit my needs perfect as the go between device between the company high-end PC workstation at the office, and a Mac Mini CD2 workstation at home.

Yes, it would be nice to have only one device. But a MBP is too heavy to lug around everywhere, and the screen is just a bit too large. The MBA represents voluntary simplicity at its best. A computer that you can use at a moments notice in a form factor similar to a slim book. If you are a laptop gamer, then this may not be the right choice for you. 

A few comments on the limitations. For the processor speed, obviously there is a sacrifice here.. but more demanding tasks can be left for the office/home. It is a low-power device after all that runs on a 45watt charger! Consider the technology and innovation here. I view it as as the power of last years laptops with a premium for size and portability.

Even though there are sacrifices like no ethernet, no optical, or external battery CD/DVDs are on the way out, and WiFi is common in most places. If staying at a hotel... No WiFi? Sorry... next hotel. For the battery, most people never remove it. Sure, you run into some instances where you can't find power (at the airports mostly, and the odd cafe). Just need to adapt and learn where the power sources are. For road trips, a car power inverter works great. And I bet a solar charger could also be easily rigged up for remote charging!

One last thought, is which model to purchase. It is good to see Apple adding in 2GB or RAM at the onset. Now about the processor.. I'm debating whether to upgrade to the 1.8GHZ. Is it worth it, and will I notice a difference in lets say 2 or 3 years? I have pretty much ruled out SSD as the price for this is ridiculous. I would hope the drive can be replaced in 1 or 2 years with a 128 SSD.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

zlinger said:


> . I'm debating whether to upgrade to the 1.8GHZ. Is it worth it, and will I notice a difference in lets say 2 or 3 years?


Hmm. 1.8/1.6 is a 12.5% core clock speed difference. However, you still have to use the rest of the system running at the same old speed. So I'd guess you'd see about a 5-7% real difference. I doubt there's any real tasks that you'll do on a MBA that needs to run 5% faster. The true heavy lifting is for the desktop.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

HowEver said:


> How much faster is the solid state memory in the 1.8Ghz though, compared to the 4200 rpm PATA drive in the 1.6?


Those are just pre-built systems. You can opt to add either the 1.8Ghz CPU or the SSD to the the 1.6Ghz model. They are not tied together. 

$325 for the CPU upgrade.
$1024 for the SSD upgrade. 
Add both and you get the same price as the pre-built one. 

Benchmarks will have to prove it later, but I assume that if you are a heavy HD user then the SSD would give you better performance than the CPU upgrade. 3X the price though so I wonder if it will be 15% faster or not?


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

HowEver said:


> How much faster is the solid state memory in the 1.8Ghz though, compared to the 4200 rpm PATA drive in the 1.6?


Not sure of exact figures, but the SSD is MUCH faster than the 4200rpm drive. It will be very noticeable, that's for sure. I'm amazed they used a 4200rpm drive at all, man my 5400rpm drive was already slow enough.. the move up to a 7200rpm drive was quite noticeable in performance.


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## soon2bemac (Nov 2, 2004)

JSvo said:


> That said, I'm not it's intended audience. But I see how awesome it is for those people who desire its greatest qualities. What I'm hoping for, is that some of the ideas expressed in the MBA filter into the other notebook lines, and the industry as a whole. The shift in direction that Apple is espousing with this product is very interesting, and makes me really curious, and optimistic, about the future of personal technology.
> And I think Crave and related publications have it all wrong; Apple learned greatly from the Newton and the Cube. This product will be a definite success.[/QUOTE
> 
> Well it doesn't necessarily sound like they learned from the other manufacturers that have had smaller and thinner ones in the past. Most have been met with minimal success at best. (Alot of it for the same criticisms people are laying on the MBA. The one exception being keyboard size which has been a sore spot with many other machines. Maybe Apple should have put an * on thinnest with a footnote saying thinnest currently shipping notebook.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

zlinger said:


> The MBA represents voluntary simplicity at its best.


Well put - echoes my own thoughts exactly.


zlinger said:


> It is a low-power device after all that runs on a 45watt charger!





zlinger said:


> For road trips, a car power inverter works great.


And the 45watt charger only require the really cheapo lighter plugin type. The 85watt MBP requires something larger that should be wired in unless you enjoy fires in your car....


zlinger said:


> Even though there are sacrifices like no ethernet, no optical, or external battery CD/DVDs are on the way out, and WiFi is common in most places.


This mirrors the philosophy of the much loved and sorely missed Duo line.... Indeed it mirrors the original PB100 philosophy. If you want portability lets go for real PORTABILITY..... Let's not be lugging around unnecessary stuff. It is all very cool that Apple can and does cram the power of a music recording or photographic studio or a video or graphic editing suite or what in the not too distant past would have been called a super computer into an MBP but I don't need it.


zlinger said:


> If staying at a hotel... No WiFi? Sorry... next hotel.


If more people did that we'd soon have decent WiFi in all hotels. As an aside, hotels that claim to have WiFi don't always perform. In the Holiday Inn in North Conway, NH, we had the room right next to the lobby and office and the signal was unusable it was so weak.... 


zlinger said:


> . I'm debating whether to upgrade to the 1.8GHZ.


Vis a vis the 1.6 this is a (1.8-1.6)/1.6=0.125 or a 12.5% improvement. How many $ is that worth?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

HOWEVER, there is no lock between the SSD and the chip speed options. You can order all four combinations (1.6/64 Gb SSD, 1.6/80Gb HDD, 1.8/64 Gb SSD, 1.8/80Gb HDD). It's just that the AppleStore is configured for a base (with options) configuration and a top-of-the-line configuration.

(edit - oops Atroz beat me to it)

That said, the MBA is the most un-upgradable and non-future-proof Mac since the original Mac. It does have a market and will succeed, but I think Apple's expectations are that it will not sell in anywhere the same numbers as the MacBook and will fall short of the MBP. But it will increase overall sales of Apple portables.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

HowEver said:


> At over $1,000, is the solid state hard drive upgrade the most expensive storage drive upgrade in history then?


Our lab paid $4000 for 4k ram way back.... "in history" is very relative..


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

HowEver said:


> I knew there would be a RAM response and tried to avoid that by stressing drive storage.


OK.. then.. our first 20 (count em') _MEG_ hard disk cost over $600...


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> Not sure of exact figures, but the SSD is MUCH faster than the 4200rpm drive. It will be very noticeable, that's for sure. I'm amazed they used a 4200rpm drive at all, man my 5400rpm drive was already slow enough.. the move up to a 7200rpm drive was quite noticeable in performance.


Again, I think a lot depends on the use to which the Mac will be put. If, as I suspect, most MBA users will be running Office type apps, then this drive will not create any very noticeable issues for them.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

Well, I agree and disagree. With a slow drive, it's noticeable with anything, from launching apps to browsing the web.. it's just slower.

Having said that, yeah.. for some people this still won't be a problem, since they've already accepted this product to be limited in different ways, and have chosen form over function (to a degree).

No one's actually put this thing through it's paces, so who knows.. maybe it's been designed to be quicker somehow... although I doubt it.. but I look forward to seeing the benchmarks nonetheless.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

This being a site for Mac users, reactions here to Apple-related product launches can be telling. And judging by the rightful amount of doubt seen in this thread about whether the MBA will have much of a market, I say that Apple has a hard sell on their hands. There is no doubt that many of the ideas in the product will find a way onto the wider line of products. But time will tell if there's a market for a product that costs nearly as much as a MacBook Pro, with far less performing power, and much more money than a MB but with fewer peripherals. 

Until then, the comparisons--no matter how unfair--are gonna look like this:


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

I don't know why people are complaining so much about the lack of serviceability (for example). This is a niche device, with some serious technological innovation. I think Apple is pushing the boundaries with the way we look at devices. They perfected this with the iPods.. remember the days with loading up your walkman/CD with AA batteries... carrying around cassette tapes? Not any more... an easy to use integrated system of hardware and software.

With the MBA, this size/design would not be possible without miniaturized CPU's, soldering RAM to boards, omitting ports, and designing a battery without casings (the laptop case is what protects it). This all saves space. The battery I am least concerned about, since I hear there are screws on the bottom to open it up. The RAM, and CPU... yes, could be a bit more.. but I guess the tradeoffs with heat and space are probably too much at this point in time. I'm at least glad it they have it with 2GB RAM from factory. So with all these permanent components, it seems to be scaled and sized appropriately for its intended use (whatever that is).

As to the HDD, vs. SSD, I really hope that this can be serviced. I highly doubt that Apple will permanently solder the data storage drive. Think about it.. for servicing/warrantee purposes, Apple only needs to service four components: 1) lcd monitor, 2) logic board w integrated ram, cpu, ports, 3) data storage device hdd or ssd, and 4) battery. Very simple... remove the screws on the bottom, and fix/replace as required.

We could make the same argument with our iPhones... soldered in CPU, RAM, Flash, Battery. But hey, it is what it is... an appliance and lifestyle device... simple, easy to use... keep it charged... turn it on, it works for x # hours before another charge. In the event that you run out of juice.. your out of luck until a recharge. Then after x # of years, you have the choice of replacing it with a new device altogether, or continuing with what you have (after a battery replacement). I think the MBA will follow the same business model.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

My friend wants one.


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## JSvo (Nov 12, 2007)

soon2bemac said:


> Well it doesn't necessarily sound like they learned from the other manufacturers that have had smaller and thinner ones in the past. Most have been met with minimal success at best.....


If you have an example of a laptop that is or has ever been thinner than the MBA, then please do tell, because I can't remember any off the top of my head.

As for small laptops, I'm sure you've been following the current trends in this area. Is Asus going to flop with its Eee PC? Or Intel with its version? Or the myriad copycats that are getting into the same market? Or the OLPC?

Naturally, the market for those very low-cost computers is not the same as that for the MBA, but it's telling that people are more than willing to trade off performance and features for size and price. The MBA is simply the best-realized (and most expensive) of all these offerings; the Ferrari of the market, if you will. It will be successful because it capitalizes on this emerging market with the usual Apple style, flair, marketing, and execution of design that have made every recent Apple product a success (perhaps not including the original Apple TV).

As I said before, I'm not going to buy one, but I'm sure there will be many who will.


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> This being a site for Mac users, reactions here to Apple-related product launches can be telling. And judging by the rightful amount of doubt seen in this thread about whether the MBA will have much of a market, I say that Apple has a hard sell on their hands. There is no doubt that many of the ideas in the product will find a way onto the wider line of products. But time will tell if there's a market for a product that costs nearly as much as a MacBook Pro, with far less performing power, and much more money than a MB but with fewer peripherals.


This site will of course deal with existing Mac users. It won't have a lot of potential Mac users hanging around. It all depends on what Apple sees as "much of a market". A product does not have to reach vast numbers to be successful, it just has to reach the targets set by the company. Apple does not currently have an offering like the MBA, and it offers a different feature set from the 12" PB. So Apple are looking at existing users who will find it attractive, and entirely new users. The only way we will know is if it is still around a few years from now.

I feel it will do well, though not explosively so. There are many, many people who never use their optical drive except for software, and who never need more than one USB port - and if they do, hubs are cheap. They will replace the computer every few years, so the battery is a non-issue. They have office stuff on the HDD, so 80GB is fine. And they travel a lot.

Of course, it's also cool looking. 

This is targeted at sections of the corporate market. It meets their needs, and they can afford it.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> For most ordinary users and uses (syncing an iPod, for example), the performance penalty for using USB 2 is barely noticeable. If you really need FW's better performance, you really aren't part of the target market for this machine... External drives...


Some circular illogic in this statement. Since the MBA does not have FW, one can not use a decent external drive. They are stuck with the slow USB interface. But then, they can't use it if they are also using a mouse, since there is only one USB port. So it is pretty obvious that this machine does have an extremely limited audience - those what want to show off something that has little utility. And the performance is "barely noticable"??? Owning both FW and USB chassis, and using them frequently, FW is at least 10 times faster than USB. USB would be useless for viewing movies. Plus the fact that a person would need, next to the MBA itself, the external hard drive, external DVD burner and USB hub to have any utility at all.



> Untrue. Apple still sells these modems for its current computers.


From what I have been reading, Leopard does not support FAX operation on a USB modem. Oh, add something else to the above to have any possible utility.



> It doesn't suit your own needs and you consider it too expensive, therefore it will fail? Specious logic, plain and simple.


It is not that it does not suit my own needs. My own needs do not dictate what will be successful and what will not. For instance, if it was based on my needs, the Intel Macs would all be failures, and Apple would return to the PPC, which suits my purposes. What I am saying is that, based on the exagerated price of the MBA, and comparing it to the lack of essentials that one does need, it will have a very limited market. Will it fail? People say the G4 Cube was a failure, but it is a desired machine, even these days. I wanted one, I could have used one, but deferred because it was too expensive for what one would get for the price. The MBA, though I wouldn't bother because it is too limited for me, will find a limited niche market, and will be somewhat valuable, like the 20th Anniversary Mac and the G4 Cube.

For the price, a businessman can purchase four Windoze boxes. Sure, it is portable, but once adds all of those things that are essential to the use of a computer, I think it will be much larger and much heavier than a regular notebook. And really, I don't think it is as cool as the iTouch...


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

JSvo said:


> As for small laptops, I'm sure you've been following the current trends in this area. Is Asus going to flop with its Eee PC? Or Intel with its version? Or the myriad copycats that are getting into the same market? Or the OLPC?


First, Intel has been backpeddling from it's Classmate PC because it is too expensive to manufacture. The OLPC does have it's place, but until that consortium gets all of it's crises under control, it is in jeopardy. And the Evil Empire has been trying to get the OLPC project to adopt, guess what, Windoze, which will seal it's fate as yet another piece of techo-garbage. Asus has already changed it's specifications, and is far behind schedule. They could have a winner if, and only if, they do not release a Windoze version, which will be entirely pathetic on that system. The real problem is that the systems are so scaled down, they need a very tight OS; and those kinds of OSes are a thing of the past. There is not a programmer around these days that can write an efficent program, many of them can not even get a handle on C language. It is also a market that demands that the product is inexpensive. So if Asus can get a handle on costs, and make the machine cheap enough, it can succeed. But then again, I can buy a used machine for half the price with way more power and utility. It really is a tough call.

I'd buy an Asus machine if it ran DOS, because I could make a pretty whack system out of it for legacy use. Or if one could get OSX running on it, a la a Hackintosh Book.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

Pelao said:


> This is targeted at sections of the corporate market. It meets their needs, and they can afford it.


Apple has a corporate audience?  
It's a niche product for a niche platform that is Mac. A growing platform, but this MBA certainly isn't going to be your cash cow product.


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## jaline (Jul 7, 2007)




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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> A growing platform, but this MBA certainly isn't going to be your cash cow product.


Hmmm. I am not so sure. Perhaps not a volume cow, but with Apple's margins, perhaps a cash cow. Just look at their profits on comparatively low volumes now.



> But then, they can't use it if they are also using a mouse, since there is only one USB port. So it is pretty obvious that this machine does have an extremely limited audience - those what want to show off something that has little utility.


When operated as a notebook, on an aircraft or in a meeting or a coffee shop, it seems people rarely use more than one USB port anyway (and many now use a Bluetooth mouse). When back at base, just plug it into a USB hub and away you go. An external drive is most likely going to be used for backup and /or additional storage space. For these purposes, USB speeds are more than adequate. For years I have used my PowerBooks this way - rarely using USB when out of the office, and never more than one USB port at a time. back at the office plug in my USB hub (again, using one port) and all my stuff is connected, in addition to a second monitor. In any case, many things like mice, keyboards and printers are now wireless.

Feature counting is interesting, but for many people the MBA will match how they really use their machines in real world situations. For the light weight and convenience they will be willing to pay a premium. 

Anyway, one thing for sure - it's like every other product: some will find it appropriate and others not.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> Since the MBA does not have FW, one can not use a decent external drive. They are stuck with the slow USB interface. But then, they can't use it if they are also using a mouse, since there is only one USB port. So it is pretty obvious that this machine does have an extremely limited audience - those what want to show off something that has little utility.


Nobody ever said this was a do-it-all machine suitable for all purposes. It's clearly intended as a secondary machine for people who want an ultra-light portable. I'm not in the market for one myself, but I believe the target market is much, much bigger than just a tiny niche of poseurs.

You're misdefining the audience based on a misunderstanding of how the machine is intended to be used, and assuming that all those wired peripherals are important to every potential buyer. 

In fact, mice, backup drives, networking... all that is *wireless by design*. That's perfectly adequate for huge numbers of users, not just superficial show-offs. 

I guarantee you that Apple has studied how people use their machines (especially their secondary ones) and found that there are plenty who never use firewire, very rarely use two USB ports at a time, never connect to Ethernet, never use their computer as a fax machine, don't own an external drive except maybe a USB key drive, etc.



> And the performance is "barely noticable"??? Owning both FW and USB chassis, and using them frequently, FW is at least 10 times faster than USB. USB would be useless for viewing movies.


Apple's optional one for MacBook Air is rated at 8x; all you need is 1x to play a movie. If it doesn't work, Apple's going to take some hard knocks for false advertising. ("Whether you’re at the office or on the road with your MacBook Air, you can play and burn both CDs and DVDs with the MacBook Air SuperDrive. It’s perfect when you want to watch a DVD movie, install software, create backup discs, and more.")

In real-world applications, especially with smaller files, USB 2.0 is a bit slower than Firewire, but FW is nowhere near 10x faster. Not even double; more like about 1.5x.

Again, for the things that most ordinary users do, USB 2.0 is just fine. Some power-user tasks do require the better performance of firewire, which takes those users out of the market for this machine right off the bat. 



> Plus the fact that a person would need, next to the MBA itself, the external hard drive, external DVD burner and USB hub to have any utility at all.


The only computer in the Apple lineup that comes anywhere near being suitable for all purposes is the iMac, but even there you can easily find uses for which it isn't the right solution. So why should this machine be dismissed because it targets a subset of the market? They *all* do.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

(( p g )) said:


> This being a site for Mac users, reactions here to Apple-related product launches can be telling. And judging by the rightful amount of doubt seen in this thread about whether the MBA will have much of a market, I say that Apple has a hard sell on their hands.


I would agree IF the MBA was being marketed/targeted to hard-core mac users like us.

IT ISN'T. The MBA is a computer for mobile professionals, who are generally quite well-to-do. It's secondarily positioned as a great "dingy" to your "main boat" for "excursions." 

There's a great parallel here for those of us who are _Doctor Who_ fans. The show got revamped/brought back in 2005. By best estimates, there are about 300,000 hard-core, buy-everything, never-miss-it "whovians" in the UK. And they are at times highly critical and vocal of this or that bit of continuity or storytelling, etc.

The general public, OTOH, don't give a crap and they watch it in DROVES. Ratings are routinely around 8M, and in these days of distracted, fractured and otherwise turned-off TV viewers, that's INCREDIBLE.

IOW, the current version of _Doctor Who_ has found a mainstream audience that doesn't give a rat's hiney what the "fans" think. The fans are still catered to when possible, but Doctor Who will happily contradict itself in the name of good entertainment -- a premise that seems to be working VERY well indeed.

Apple is doing THE EXACT SAME THING. And boy are the fanboys going to be grumbly over the next few years as this becomes ever more apparent!


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

chas_m said:


> I would agree IF the MBA was being marketed/targeted to hard-core mac users like us.


You're assuming that ehMac's just a place for what you call "hard-core users." In fact, I'm very much part of the market you describe: a very busy business owner whose entire fleet is Mac based. And more than that, I'm a shareholder. With those points combined, all I care about are well-built products that are suited to my needs and that sell well. And that's why I have doubts about what Apple's up to here. 

If anything, I suspect that when the MBA was at the design stage, Apple worried (rightly) that customers might balk at the trade-offs and cost that have had to go into making a product this thin. Rather than risking either the MB or MBP brand, they opted to release this as a third option in the MB line...and then sit back and see what happens. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of the innovations trickle down eventually. But as a stand-alone product I just don't see it having the sustained sales record of its counterparts. I could be wrong. Time will tell.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> I'm not in the market for one myself, but I believe the target market is much, much bigger than just a tiny niche of poseurs.


Perhaps their target market is much bigger - but without those things that are basic to the use of a computer, the MBA is an expensive toy that will fit a niche market. I do not think it will be used by anyone other than rich technophiles and those executives that need toys that do not have to do very much.



> I guarantee you that Apple has studied how people use their machines (especially their secondary ones) and found that there are plenty who never use firewire, very rarely use two USB ports at a time, never connect to Ethernet, never use their computer as a fax machine, don't own an external drive except maybe a USB key drive, etc.


So what you are saying is that Apple is targeting people that actually do not use a computer? Everyone I know has external hard drives these days, even Leopard sports Time Machine as a built in feature. Everyone I know has USB hubs because of the number of USB devices. With the MBA, well, I suppose someone that may want it to use with a digital camera will be out of luck, unless they lug a powered hub around, which is not very portable with a wall wart. Business users do use FAX capability, it is a staple of business, even though they also like to twiddle with their Crackberries. All of this limits the appeal of a MBA. It is an expensive niche machine targeted at a specific market, and is little more than a boutique toy. However, this does not doom it to "failure", it just means that it will not be a good match to those that actually use their computers for real work. It's like an iPhone with a full sized screen and keyboard, oh, except that it is not a phone...



> Apple's optional one for MacBook Air is rated at 8x; all you need is 1x to play a movie.


And all of that speed is wasted trying to wedge the data through an inadequate single USB channel, when it would cost them basically nothing to add a FW port. I know they want to have all of this wireless junk, I can just imagine the cut outs and dropped signals that people will be complaining about.




> In real-world applications, especially with smaller files, USB 2.0 is a bit slower than Firewire, but FW is nowhere near 10x faster. Not even double; more like about 1.5x.


Actually, in real-world applications, my FW drives absolutely smoke USB. I find USB to be handy only because the cases are inexpensive and I have a number of drives. I even tested it on my Seagate, which has FW, USB and eSATA; and the FW is quite a bit quicker, on the order of 10 times the speed.



> So why should this machine be dismissed because it targets a subset of the market? They *all* do.


I do not think anyone _dismissed_ the MBA. Just a number of people have pointed out that the machine has many real and practical limits, limits that will curb wider appeal of the machine. Coupled with the outrageous price of an enfeebled machine, it is destined to be a niche product with a limited number of users. This does not mean that the MBA is not a valid machine nor a worthess machine, nor does it mean that it is defective or poorly thought out. It simply means that for the vast majority of potential users, the MBA will never be able to serve a practical purpose. It is a boutique machine slated to become an expensive collectable.


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## fyrefly (Apr 16, 2005)

EvanPitts said:


> Since the MBA does not have FW, one can not use a decent external drive. They are stuck with the slow USB interface. But then, they can't use it if they are also using a mouse, since there is only one USB port. So it is pretty obvious that this machine does have an extremely limited audience - those what want to show off something that has little utility.


This sounds like a little bit of Malarky to me. Maybe if you were comparing USB 1.0 and FW400, this would be accurate, but USB2.0 is good at "bursts" and FW400 is good at sustained transfers. Otherwise they're pretty much almost as fast as one another - with FW usually having a better overall speed.

I love FW400 as much as the next guy, but USB2.0 isn't as crap as you're painting it to be. 

Also, lots of people make comments about the MBA's *single* USB port, but there's so many USB hubs out there, and there will no doubt be a lot of them designed to match the MBA. I have a MacBook Black right now and I routinely use a hub at home, and just the regular 2 USB ports on the road. I connect all kinds of devices (including USB 2.0 HDs) to my MB at home - printer, external HD for backup, Digital Camera, iPhone, etc... again, this is as much of a problem on the MacBook as it is on the Air.




EvanPitts said:


> And the performance is "barely noticable"??? Owning both FW and USB chassis, and using them frequently, *FW is at least 10 times faster than USB.* USB would be useless for viewing movies. Plus the fact that a person would need, next to the MBA itself, the external hard drive, external DVD burner and USB hub to have any utility at all.


USB 2.0 is fine for burning DVDs at 8x, so how would it be useless for watching DVDs at 1x?

Also, based on real life testing, FW400 is only twice as fast as USB 2.0 -- but Apple has already chosen USB as the defacto standard for iPods/Keyboards/Computers/iPhone/etc... -- so it makes more sense to have a USB 2.0 port in the MBA than it does to have a FW400 port.

USB 2.0 versus FireWire











I'm not trying to be an apologist for Apple too much, but I think the USB2.0 port is much more appropriate than a FW400 port.

I'm also not in the market for a MBA, but I think it's a cool product and it will have a market.


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

It is because it's more widely used for a multitude of devices, not just external hard drives... but it is slower (noticeably), and I'm going to miss it (cuz it seems to be fazing out).


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

fyrefly said:


> This sounds like a little bit of Malarky to me... Otherwise they're pretty much almost as fast as one another - with FW usually having a better overall speed.


As I have both, I can only report what I see, and that is FW is quite a bit faster than USB. USB is adequate for keyboards, mice, connecting the camera, even for dumping pages to the laser printer - but it is inadequate for high speed mass storage, and dumping large prints to the colour printer. If other people love USB, then that is their opinion; all I can say is that FW is a lot faster than USB in real world practical uses.



> USB 2.0 is fine for burning DVDs at 8x, so how would it be useless for watching DVDs at 1x?


I figure that since USB is fairly slow and can not sustain transfers that it would not be a good match for DVD video. But then again, I never have bothered to try since my DVD burner is FW, and I am not in the market to downgrade to a USB unit.



> Also, based on real life testing, FW400 is only twice as fast as USB 2.0 -- but Apple has already chosen USB as the defacto standard for iPods/Keyboards/Computers/iPhone/etc...


USB is more than adequate for mice and keyboards, so it makes sense to have USB ports. I can not see a need to connect a 1TB RAID array to an iPhone (and a little large to lug around for an iPod); but the MBA is actually pretending to be a real computer, so without the capability to connect it to mass storage devices, the MBA will have a limited audience.

And despite the words, I do think the MBA is a cool device, but one with limited appeal and with very little utility for my own needs. Besides, I could buy at least nine used iBooks for the price, and do the same things on each and every one of them. Hence the entire reasoning that it is a niche product.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> So what you are saying is that Apple is targeting people that actually do not use a computer?


No. What I am saying is that while you consider various forms of wired connectivity and certain built-in devices essentials, many real, live computer users -- people who really DO use their computers -- either consider some or all of them non-essential or are content to implement them wirelessly.

Consider the typical home user. Ever since 802.11 went mainstream, most of them have had no use for Ethernet, even though most Ethernet standards are faster than most 802.11 standards, sometimes much faster. The extra speed is handily trumped by the convenience of wireless.

You want to lay blue cable all over your house? Fine, go nuts. Doing so doesn't make you any better, smarter, or more of a computer user than those of us who opt for convenience over cables. 

Another example: Time Capsule is designed to provide the functionality of a wired backup drive, only stashed across the room or in a closet. That doesn't make the backups it holds any less real. 

etc. etc.



> However, this does not doom it to "failure", it just means that it will not be a good match to those that actually use their computers for real work.


Well, it's nice that somebody knows better than the rest of us what constitutes "real work."

Most computers these days are vastly overpowered for the "real work" that legions of computer users do: word processing, presentations, simple spreadsheets, Web browsing for work and play. Just because *you* need a computer that can do heavy lifting and fast, wired data transfers doesn't mean that your work is the very essence of "real work" and everything else is just fashionable goofin' around. 

And like it or not, people also use computers for entertainment. That doesn't make them any less "computer users" than you, the elite "real work" guy. It makes them a different kind of user (though most of us are a bit of both). And the computer in question will make a fine entertainment machine.


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## TheBat (Feb 11, 2005)

iMatt said:


> Most computers these days are vastly overpowered for the "real work" that legions of computer users do


NASA put men on the moon with far less computer power than available on almost any personal computer bought recently.

I could easily live with a MBA : When I take my G4 Powerbook on the road, or to work, it's just for documents, PowerPoint, browse the net, listen to music. I occasionally plug in a USB mouse. I have never used the optical drive, except when I'm at home. Heck a G3 iBook would be fine for me.

While the MBA is expensive, it's affordable (for me at least), and can do everything _I would want_ of a portable computer. And it's light. The folks who think it will fail are asking too much of the MBA - just stick with the MacBookPro for your needs.

I expect that the second iteration of the MBA will come down price, and sales will be brisk. But this iteration _will_ still sell well.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> As I have both, I can only report what I see, and that is FW is quite a bit faster than USB. USB is adequate for keyboards, mice, connecting the camera, even for dumping pages to the laser printer - but it is inadequate for high speed mass storage, and dumping large prints to the colour printer. If other people love USB, then that is their opinion; all I can say is that FW is a lot faster than USB in real world practical uses.


You are _clearly_ talking about USB 1. You have USB 1. We are *not* talking about USB 1. _We_ are talking about USB2. The MacBook Air has USB2. USB2 is faster (by a large margin) than USB 1.

*DO YOU GET IT YET???*




> so without the capability to connect it to mass storage devices, the MBA will have a limited audience.


Yes, that would be a problem -- IF THAT WERE TRUE.

But it isn't true, so it's not a problem.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

Not to change the subject.. but I wonder how long it would take to recharge an MBA using a solar panel... for example, a 12 W, 800 mA folding solar power

This might come in handy during some remote backcountry camping and climbing trips out here in the mountains of BC. Just think how convenient it would be to download video/pics at the end of the day, or provide for some good campsite entertainment. What an inspiring setting also for doing some initial photo editing.

I'm not one for gasoline power generators.. and this would make it the most environmentally friendly and clean running computer on the planet


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## soon2bemac (Nov 2, 2004)

JSvo said:


> If you have an example of a laptop that is or has ever been thinner than the MBA, then please do tell, because I can't remember any off the top of my head.


Sony X505 - 0.6" - 1.8lbs

Toshiba Portege R100 - 0.7" - 2.3lbs

Sharp MM20 - 0.62 inch thick to 0.78 - 2.0lbs

These are all ones that were out in 2003/2004 as far as I can tell. 

This is a more current one :

Toshiba Portege R500 - 1.0" to .77" with an optical drive 2.4 lbs

I'm sure those are only just a few of them.


----------



## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> Consider the typical home user. Ever since 802.11 went mainstream, most of them have had no use for Ethernet, even though most Ethernet standards are faster than most 802.11 standards, sometimes much faster. The extra speed is handily trumped by the convenience of wireless.


For one, every home user I know needs at least one Ethernet connection in order to operate the router. Besides, I do not think that I dismissed the MBA because it did not have an Ethernet adapter. Wireless has it's place, especially in portable operation. However, WiFi is not widespread, and the only county I know that has WiFi internet is Chatham/Kent. So an MBA is fine if you have access to a local hotspot, live in Chatham, or use it to connect to a wireless access point at home.



> Just because *you* need a computer that can do heavy lifting and fast, wired data transfers doesn't mean that your work is the very essence of "real work" and everything else is just fashionable goofin' around.


I think you are bordering on starting a silly flame war. I have clearly stated that I would not buy an MBA because it can not accomplish any of the tasks that I currently use my iBook for. And since I use my iBook for a similar set of tasks that many, of not most, computer users utilize their machines for, the MBA is a niche product for those who have the funds to afford an expensive toy and do not engage in the heavier uses for a computer.

However, I have never stated that the MBA is somehow a "defective" machine, just that it is a product that fits in a peculiar niche. For the money, one can buy a much more useful notebook, albiet thicker and a pound or two heavier. It is unsuitable to those people who do video, or photography, or music, or a myriad of other higher performing tasks that people currently use their Apples for these days.

For me, the lack of FW is a true killer because I use my external drives for so many tasks. One USB port, through I could contrive some kind of USB hub run off a battery pack, would not allow me to do presentations, in which I do need to have a mouse and a remote control. It is my observation that a large number of people that use Apples for presentations would be in a similar bind, unless they make the choice of scrapping the use of a mouse or remote control. Again, this is not "defective", nor does it make me "hate" the MBA - it just consigns it to a small minority of people that have both the funds for what amounts to be an expensive yet underpowered design exercise, and those who have a smaller spectrum of uses.



> And like it or not, people also use computers for entertainment. That doesn't make them any less "computer users" than you, the elite "real work" guy.)/QUOTE]
> 
> Again, you are wont of engaging in a flame war, which is silly. People do use computers for entertainment, and even I use my machines for entertainment as well as work; and I have never said that my work is somehow "elite". When I say "real work", I mean just that. The MBA is a very limited machine that would be very difficult to use for productive ends, like photography. I am not saying it can not do it, it just would be so limited that a power user would not use one. And hence my point is that the MBA is a machine that fits a niche, a boutique machine, an expensive toy, that will have value as a collectors item and as a powerful expression of a design exercise. It will not meet the needs of the vast majority of users, and really, that is fine because Apple does have a complete lineup of machines to meet the needs of all users. Do not confuse those things that I say are limits with any inference of "hatred" of said machine.


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> For me, the lack of FW is a true killer because I use my external drives for so many tasks. One USB port, through I could contrive some kind of USB hub run off a battery pack, would not allow me to do presentations, in which I do need to have a mouse and a remote control. It is my observation that a large number of people that use Apples for presentations would be in a similar bind, unless they make the choice of scrapping the use of a mouse or remote control. Again, this is not "defective", nor does it make me "hate" the MBA - it just consigns it to a small minority of people that have both the funds for what amounts to be an expensive yet underpowered design exercise, and those who have a smaller spectrum of uses.


Interesting take on presentations. I use my PowerBook for presentations - a key part of our business. An MBA would handle this without any changes to the way I work. When I use a mouse during presentations it is Bluetooth. The remote control is my cell phone, again using BT. I have been using my PB like this for over 3 years: in other words, many, many presentations without using a USB port or optical drive.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

chas_m said:


> You are _clearly_ talking about USB 1. You have USB 1. We are *not* talking about USB 1. _We_ are talking about USB2. The MacBook Air has USB2. USB2 is faster (by a large margin) than USB 1.
> *DO YOU GET IT YET???*


Perhaps I will need to post pictures of the devices in question, because each and every one of them is clearly labeled *"USB 2.0 - HIGH SPEED"*. And as I had stated, I have a Seagate FreeAgent external that has USB 2.0, eSATA and FW400 (with the flip of the module on the bottom); and using the exact same drive and moving the exact same files, FW is about 10 times the speed of USB in accomplishing the tasks. So if you choose to be a USB fanbot, that is your deal. For my uses, I prefer the higher speed of FW, and have invested accordingly, and invested because I have tested the speeds on my own system, in real and practical uses. I also use USB external drives, which have their purpose, but I would never use them for anything that needs speed.



> Yes, that would be a problem -- IF THAT WERE TRUE.
> But it isn't true, so it's not a problem.


If what you say is actually true, there would basically be no need for stores to sell external drives. However, pretty much every computer store is selling external drives these days, even at Costco. I bet most people on EhMac have external drives, judging by the discussions about CCC, SuperDuper and Time Machine, and judging by the number that use their Macs as storage for their music collections, not to mention as entertainment centers with Movies and such...

So as I have stated, the MBA will find any number of users choosing to go with a more inexpensive and more feature laden machine, like a MBP, because they need the capabilities that the MBA does not have. Again, this is not a prejudicial remark slamming the MBA; just pointing out the fact that for the price and the lack of real world features, it will be a niche product. There is nothing wrong with a niche product, it is just that the MBA will never become a widespread machine.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

zlinger said:


> ...
> This might come in handy during some remote backcountry camping and climbing trips out here in the mountains of BC. Just think how convenient it would be to download video/pics at the end of the day, or provide for some good campsite entertainment. ...


Hahaha! Geez, I sure hope that when I go backcountry, or on a climbing trip, some other camper doesn't set up near me and watches movies or listens to their Trooper collection as the moon rises, the loons call, and the coyotes yip. 
tptptptp

"Goodmorning!
What?
No, I haven't seen your laptop, and no, I didn't hear a 'splash' in the middle of the night."


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> When I say "real work", I mean just that. The MBA is a very limited machine that would be very difficult to use for productive ends, like photography.


Actually, photography, music and video are just hobbies; writing is real work.</sarcasm>

I don't see any point in debating this with someone whose posts are dripping with inflammatory material, yet who has the nerve to accuse others of wanting to start silly flame wars.

When you say the MacBook Air is just an expensive toy, you dismiss the real work done by millions of people, because the machine is clearly suitable for the real work those people do. *Your definition of real work is not the only one.*

Nothing further to add.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

iMatt said:


> Actually, photography, music and video are just hobbies;


So I suppose that the millions of people that are professional photographers, professional musicians, and professionals in the movie making and television industry are just hanging out doing their hobbies, and not actually making money or doing any real work.



> When you say the MacBook Air is just an expensive toy, you dismiss the real work done by millions of people, because the machine is clearly suitable for the real work those people do.


Just as I said - it is a niche product that will never be used by millions of people. It is an underpowered and expensive toy that is destined for a select group of people. And as I said so many times, it is a limited machine that looks cool, but can not perform many of the tasks that people currently use their computers for.

And I hope there is no reply to this because it is exasperating to have to explain simple things to the clueless that choose not to read the words...


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> And I hope there is no reply to this because it is exasperating to have to explain simple things to the clueless that choose not to read the words...


Your definition of real work is not the only one.

What part of that don't you understand?

For the last time: when you bandy about words like "toy" "clueless" and the like, you're being inflammatory and insulting.

I'm not a big fan of the ignore list feature, but you're one post away.


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## madhatress (Jul 22, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> So I suppose that the millions of people that are professional photographers, professional musicians, and professionals in the movie making and television industry are just hanging out doing their hobbies, and not actually making money or doing any real work.


Not to take sides in this "debate" but, did you not see the *</sarcasm>* in iMatt's previous post?



> And I hope there is no reply to this because it is exasperating to have to explain simple things to the clueless that choose not to read the words...


Pot calling kettle.....


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

EvanPitts said:


> Perhaps I will need to post pictures of the devices in question, because each and every one of them is clearly labeled *"USB 2.0 - HIGH SPEED"*. And as I had stated, I have a Seagate FreeAgent external that has USB 2.0, eSATA and FW400 (with the flip of the module on the bottom); and using the exact same drive and moving the exact same files, FW is about 10 times the speed of USB in accomplishing the tasks.


If you are getting a 10 times faster speed with USB 2.0 than with FW 400, there is something seriously wrong with the USB 2.0 link.
Could be at the Mac end or at the external drive end.

I use external drives with both FW 400 and USB 2.0; two FW drives and three USB 2.0 drives and ran a test not too long ago where I published my findings somewhere here on ehMac when that discussion came up - also included transfer times internal to the mac from one hard drive to another.
USB 2.0 was slower than FW 400, but by a factor of just less than two if I remember right - certainly not anywhere near a factor of 10.
To give you an idea of the speed you should see, I just moved an 885 MB file from a LaCie external USB drive to my Mac and it took 105 seconds. And that is with an old 1.4 GHz G4 PowerMac.

I also regularly watch videos over the USB 2.0 connection to the external drive with absolutely no problem. The only reason I use FW drives at all is because the PPC Mac won't boot into a USB drive.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> Perhaps I will need to post pictures of the devices in question, because each and every one of them is clearly labeled *"USB 2.0 - HIGH SPEED"*.


This is utterly irrelevant. You can have 1,000 USB 2 devices, but if you plug them into a USB1 port, POOF they are USB1 devices.

You have indicated in previous postings that you use older Macs. If your model does not have USB2 ports, you do not have USB2 speed. At all. No matter what device is connected to it.

Mactracker is incredibly useful in finding out this information and I commend you to it.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I'm a bit confused about Apple's statement that the battery is not user-replacable.

If it is really as easy as this: AppleInsider | Sources: MacBook Air battery replacements take only minutes

why would it not be considered user-replacable?


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

chas_m said:


> You have indicated in previous postings that you use older Macs. If your model does not have USB2 ports, you do not have USB2 speed. At all. No matter what device is connected to it.


True -

However, if your older Mac accepts PCI cards, like my old AGP, you can add multiple USB 2.0 ports with a very inexpensive PCI card.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

krs said:


> I'm a bit confused about Apple's statement that the battery is not user-replacable.
> 
> If it is really as easy as this: AppleInsider | Sources: MacBook Air battery replacements take only minutes
> 
> why would it not be considered user-replacable?


I think your confusion stems from the difference between the actuality of something being user-replaceable and the legal term "user-replaceable."

When Apple says something is user-replaceable, they mean "if you replace it, you will not void the warranty." They're not commenting on how hard or easy it actually is to replace.

The original G5 iMacs are a good example. Almost every single part in the entire machine was user-replaceable, and indeed Apple *still* has a program where users can order parts and replace them themselves.

Later editions of the iMac went back to NOT allowing people to do so, and today the only part on an iMac that is user-replaceable is the RAM. I guess the experiment of "user-serviceable" stuff turned out either not to work well, or it didn't make Apple enough money.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

krs said:


> I'm a bit confused about Apple's statement that the battery is not user-replacable.
> 
> If it is really as easy as this: AppleInsider | Sources: MacBook Air battery replacements take only minutes
> 
> why would it not be considered user-replacable?


I think your confusion stems from the difference between the actuality of something being user-replaceable and the legal term "user-replaceable."

When Apple says something is user-replaceable, they mean "if you replace it, you will not void the warranty." They're not commenting on how hard or easy it actually is to replace.

The original G5 iMacs are a good example. Almost every single part in the entire machine was user-replaceable, and indeed Apple *still* has a program where users can order parts and replace them themselves.

Later editions of the iMac went back to NOT allowing people to do so, and today the only part on an iMac that is user-replaceable is the RAM. I guess the experiment of "user-serviceable" stuff turned out either not to work well, or it didn't make Apple enough money.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

I was actually wondering if there was more to the actual replacement than the article indicates, but obviously not too many people have a MBA yet.

Seems to me we are heading down the same road as with the memory replacement on the Mini.
Wasn't that "non-user" replacable initially and then Apple changed their tune to "you won't void the warranty if you replace it yourself, but if you damage anything in doing so, you're on your own"


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

krs said:


> I use external drives with both FW 400 and USB 2.0; two FW drives and three USB 2.0 drives and ran a test not too long ago where I published my findings somewhere here on ehMac when that discussion came up - also included transfer times internal to the mac from one hard drive to another.
> USB 2.0 was slower than FW 400, but by a factor of just less than two if I remember right - certainly not anywhere near a factor of 10.


Just did a test to make sure I'm not dreaming.

Drive 1: 7200 rpm 3.5" LaCie firewire drive
Drive 2: iPod w/ 1.8" drive (4200 rpm?) via USB 2.0

Files: a ripped DVD, total 7.2 GB, including four files @ 1 GB each.

Time to transfer, not doing anything else with the computer:

To FW drive: just under 5 minutes.
To iPod: just over 10.5 minutes.

Not too shabby, considering the iPod's dinky little drive.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

HowEver said:


> The computer may be favouring the transfer to the iPod.
> 
> I know I would.


I didn't do them simultaneously.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

iMatt said:


> Just did a test to make sure I'm not dreaming.
> 
> Drive 1: 7200 rpm 3.5" LaCie firewire drive
> Drive 2: iPod w/ 1.8" drive (4200 rpm?) via USB 2.0
> ...


Boy - transfer times sure vary.

I just put together a portable external with a USB 2.0/FW Bytecc enclosure and a 5400 120 GB Fijitsu drive. Took just over 30 minutes for a 1.18 GB file using USB 1.1 bus-powered and 3 min 26 seconds with USB 2.0
I'll try FW and see how fast that is.

FW 400 - Same file, same drive different port on enclosure... 1 minute, 26 seconds

Seems to me something is wrong with the USB link. I was using the Mac however while the file transferred via USB - maybe that slows it down.


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

krs said:


> Boy - transfer times sure vary.
> 
> I just put together a portable external with a USB 2.0/FW Bytecc enclosure and a 5400 120 GB Fijitsu drive. Took just over 30 minutes for a 1.18 GB file using USB 2.0 bus-powered.
> I'll try FW and see how fast that is.
> ...


Definitely sounds likes something is pushing your connection way back to USB 1.1 speeds.

Another thing that occurs to me: unless my math is messed up (it might be), my test transfer ran about 190 Mbps for FW and 90 Mbps for USB - both well below their rated speeds. (7 GB = 7000 MB = 56,000 Mbits)


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

chas_m said:


> That's the #3 and #10 spots if you can't see it.
> tptptptp


Yeah that's pretty amazing. 2 weeks later and it is now at #153 in the rankings... behind the MacBook (#39) and MacBook Pro (#133). 

Looks like Apple nailed that sweet spot for increasing their market share.  

Even the Asus eeePC (a real portable device) is at #34

Can you say... MacBook Air = "flash in a pan"? 

BTW... I just upgraded my MacBook with a 320 GB hardrive myself... remind me again why anyone would want a MacBook Air again? It must appeal to those people who like to drive Hummers. :lmao:


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

da_jonesy said:


> Yeah that's pretty amazing. 2 weeks later and it is now at #153 in the rankings... behind the MacBook (#39) and MacBook Pro (#133).


So YOU'RE saying the MacBook Pro is a dud and will soon be replaced?


----------



## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

iMatt said:


> Definitely sounds likes something is pushing your connection way back to USB 1.1 speeds.


You're right.
I have been adding and removing bits and pieces in my G4 and last time I plugged the cables back in, I plugged the feed to the USB 2.0 hub into a USB 1.1 port by mistake.

Just ran the transfer again with a direct connection to a USB 2.0 port on the AGP G4 and got 3 minutes 26 seconds - that's more like it.


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

chas_m said:


> So YOU'RE saying the MacBook Pro is a dud and will soon be replaced?


Nope, I'm just saying that Apple is selling more MacBooks than they are MacBook Pros.

I'll be honest, I am surprised the MacBook Air is as high as it is. It has all the makings of a Road Apple...

Second Class Macs


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## JSvo (Nov 12, 2007)

soon2bemac said:


> Sony X505 - 0.6" - 1.8lbs
> 
> Toshiba Portege R100 - 0.7" - 2.3lbs
> 
> ...


I just noticed your reply, so to be pedantic I'll offer a quick response. I was asking about thickness, not weight, as we know a number of laptops are lighter than the MBA. But as for thickness, the MBA varies from 0.16" to 0.76", which makes it thinner than all of the examples you gave, especially if you take into account mean thickness for the ones that vary. So, for what it's worth, I stand by my assertion that the MBA is indeed the thinnest out there.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

I think the point of the MBA if that it has the largest screen for the weight. I for one think Apple made their compromises in all the right places. Actually the thing is like Mary Poppins - "practically perfect in every way".....


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Found a VERY interesting comparison between the Air and the Sony Vaio:

Macworld | Editors' Notes | Stacking up the MacBook Air and a Sony Vaio

Basically, the Vaio offers a lot of what Air-haters want, which (when you ignore the nonsense) comes down to "built-in optical drive" and "more ports." Only THREE little problems with it:

1. MUCH slower processor
2. Doesn't run OS X (oops, that's it for me, I'm out!)
3. Costs $700 **MORE.**

Oopsie.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Oh hi, yeah I found another article by a well-respected authority on these things that says the MacBook Air doesn't suck at all!

How the MacBook Air stacks up against other ultra-light notebooks — RoughlyDrafted Magazine

He compares the Air to just about everything else in its class ... and does NOT find it wanting. Whodathunkit??


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

CNET reports it as...

News Extra - CNET News.com

The article links to...

MacBook Air recommendation: 10 reasons to wait | Computerworld Blogs


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## kloan (Feb 22, 2002)

da_jonesy said:


> CNET reports it as...
> 
> News Extra - CNET News.com
> 
> ...


Bang on.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

All I'm going to say about this is that if C|Net got something "bang on" it would be a first.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

chas_m said:


> All I'm going to say about this is that if C|Net got something "bang on" it would be a first.


The CJNET article is a fair, balanced, thoughtful piece by someone who is clearly a fan. I think to dismiss it out of hand is really unfair. Everything written about Apple or Apple products shouldn't have to be unquestioning gushy praise. I love my mac and the mac community but not enough to abandon my critical judgement completely.
'nuff said
/michael


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

mc3251 said:


> The CJNET article is a fair, balanced, thoughtful piece by someone who is clearly a fan. I think to dismiss it out of hand is really unfair. Everything written about Apple or Apple products shouldn't have to be unquestioning gushy praise. I love my mac and the mac community but not enough to abandon my critical judgement completely.
> 'nuff said
> /michael


Agree. I have always owned Macs since the IISi days, never owned a Windows PC - only use them in the office.
But I'm more critical of of Apple and the Mac than I would ever be of Microsoft and Windows. Why would I care if Windows is garbage - no skin off my back.

As to the MBA, the killer for me is that is has no firewire port.
I actually find that extremely surprising since Apple has been pushing firewire for years, a FW 800 port would be backwards compatible with FW 400 and all my high-speed peripherals are firewire.


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## ScanMan (Sep 11, 2007)

Not sure if this has been posted to the thread

http://www.macworld.com/article/131805/2008/01/macbookair_first_tests.html


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## snowmen (Jan 20, 2006)

chas_m said:


> Oh hi, yeah I found another article by a well-respected authority on these things that says the MacBook Air doesn't suck at all!
> 
> How the MacBook Air stacks up against other ultra-light notebooks — RoughlyDrafted Magazine
> 
> He compares the Air to just about everything else in its class ... and does NOT find it wanting. Whodathunkit??


Well... Where's 12hr battery Toshiba and 8 hr battery Panasonic?

Yes, we all talk about CPUs, RAM so far. What about other features such as anti-shock or splash-proof, etc... ? Panasonic/Sony/Toshiba can be dropped from 76cm without problem. Many of them even tested for 1 meter. 

The only four things really taking advantage over Toshiba/Panasonic/Sony are the CPU, the super-thin, X3100, and the OS X.

Panasonic: ƒŒƒbƒcƒm�[ƒgCF-W7B | ƒpƒ\ƒRƒ“�i–@�lŒü‚¯�j| AV�EPC�Eƒ\ƒŠƒ…�[ƒVƒ‡ƒ“
Toshiba: dynabook SS RX1


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

mc3251 said:


> The CJNET article is a fair, balanced, thoughtful piece by someone who is clearly a fan. I think to dismiss it out of hand is really unfair.


Re-read my post until you understand that I was taking a potshot at C|Net, not the article. C|Net has a long and very proud history of suckage regarding the Mac -- they are to Mac journalism as Faux Snooze is to regular news channels -- unfair and biased.

As proof of this, I note that the article did not originate with C|Net, it came from Computerworld. It just fits C|Net's agenda, which is why they published it.

Look, Walt Mossberg (who's opinion is more widely regarded) also weighed in with a mixed review that I regard as fair. That's not the point.

PS. Speaking of missing the point, how bout that MacWorld "give me hits" job on the benchmarks? Talk about missing the point -- the MacBook Air can be said to be about many things, but high-performance wasn't even REMOTELY a design consideration for this thing. Rating its processor scores (which amount to "duh") is like comparing game performance of a Mac mini with that of an XBox. Idiots.


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## zlinger (Aug 28, 2007)

The benchmarks are starting to trickle in... MacBook Air benchmarked against its brethren
"But the most surprising part is how well the MacBook Air, without the SSD drive, kept up with the MacBook, in fact on all the tests except for the one that it won and one other, the difference in times of completion were in the single digit seconds."

This sounds promising, and I'm feeling a lot less concerned with performance... seems to be near on par with a Mac Book. Pre-ordered custom 1.8 80GB drive... so this should help to future proof it with a few extra hertz. Apple says it will ship on Feb 13.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

In addition to the articles already mentioned as fair and thoughtful (by me and others), here's a few more that I think offer a balanced perspective on the MacBook Air, and should be read by anyone either thinking of buying one, or who mindlessly hate the Air:

The MacBook Air: First impressions, second thoughts
I particularly liked this one, because this is the exact same site that recently published an hit piece called "MacBook Air: 10 Reasons Why You Should Wait."

Dvorak Weighs in on MacBook Air || The Mac Observer
MacObserver's "take" on a John Dvorak article. I don't link to JD because he doesn't actually mean anything he says, he just rabble-rouses Mac users with outrageous statements to get hits -- much more of a whore than anyone else out there in this regard. He *hates* the MacBook Air, which may cause me to buy one just on principle, but more importantly everything he's hated from Apple has gone on to be a huge hit. The MacBook Air's future is assured with this diatribe.

The solid-state drive option for the MacBook Air
Yet another Computerworld blog, but this one talks about how awesome the Air would be if the SSD option didn't cost a grand. This brings up an excellent criticism of the Air that I have to agree with -- it's too far ahead of its time. Apple has a habit of doing this, as most of you know. If the Air came out two years from now, when SSD prices should be roughly in line with current HD prices, people would be RAVING about this thing, since it's entire design is mean to complement the instant-on, low-power, low-weight concept of an SSD drive.

YouTube - NBC Today Show: Apple MacBook Air
I will be the first to say that GMA is not your best option for tech reviews, but I will also say "what the HUH??" at Al Roker's tech savvy, he knows his stuff! Anyway, the GMA team point out something too many critics overlook: hold this thing in your hand for two minutes and THEN tell me you don't want one. Yeah, right.

Personal Technology - WSJ.com
I referenced this review in an earlier post but didn't link to it, so now I'm linking to it. Walt Mossberg can be a little foggy at times, but he's fundamentally fair and balanced when it comes to Apple. This is now a gushing review like the GMA guys gave, but it's also not a hatchet job like most of the haters have done. It's tough but fair.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Engadget's tough but fair (IMHO) MacBook Air review:
MacBook Air review - Engadget


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Congrats Zlinger!


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## da_jonesy (Jun 26, 2003)

chas_m said:


> Engadget's tough but fair (IMHO) MacBook Air review:
> MacBook Air review - Engadget



_"The goal of the Air was clear: create a Mac that frequent fliers wouldn't be ashamed of, or in physical pain to lug around. But therein lies the rub. The Air simply doesn't have the power to be many users' primary machine, while also lacking many of the features considered necessity by business travelers."_


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## iMatt (Dec 3, 2004)

Thread keeps on ticking...

I stand by my prediction that niche status will only last a year or so while the price of solid-state drives comes down. Not a mass machine yet, and not a viable primary machine for many of us, but plenty useful for plenty of people once the price settles in around $1600.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

iMatt said:


> Thread keeps on ticking...
> 
> I stand by my prediction that niche status will only last a year or so while the price of solid-state drives comes down. Not a mass machine yet, and not a viable primary machine for many of us, but plenty useful for plenty of people once the price settles in around $1600.


That's more or less where I'm at with my opinion of the Air.

*Currently* it's a status symbol for rich people (primarily women) who most of us nerd-types would consider "very light-duty" users. It's also a *perfectly* capable machine for the kinds of things *average* users do on trips, so it makes a great travel machine right now. Do I really need a minimum of 2GHz in order to read email and surf while on vacation? No. No I do not. I need wireless internet, a place to plug in my camera, and that's about it. Plus it's incredibly light and easy to store. So it's fine for that.

When the price of SSDs come down, and the retail price is adjusted a bit, then the Air will seem much more "in the mainstream" for most non-geek people.

But what I think people are missing is that it takes machines _like_ the Air to _redefine_ the mainstream.


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## Pelao (Oct 2, 2003)

> while also lacking many of the features considered necessity by business travelers."


Gotta love that line. I wonder if those who put it together _are_ business travellers. 

I have 20 years of hard business travelling under my belt, giving plenty of opportunities to observe my own habits and those of others. It's really hard to identify features that people really need that the Air does not have.

The replaceable battery is increasingly a non-issue as aircraft deploy more power points.

With BT and wireless you can connect to networks and peripherals, and you can get an ethernet dongle if you need it.


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## MacWbee (Mar 12, 2006)

*if you haven't read this...*

Blackfriars' Marketing: The MacBook Air is an ideal product -- in the right market


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

chas_m said:


> *Currently* it's a status symbol for rich people (primarily women) who most of us nerd-types would consider "very light-duty" users. It's also a *perfectly* capable machine for the kinds of things *average* users do on trips, so it makes a great travel machine right now.


This is so much horse-sh!t I think I'm going to gag! 

Aside from the SuperDrive this MacBook Air is equivalent in performance to my MBP 2gHz Core Duo right down to hard-drive size. On the MBP I do my email, surfing, banking, etc., and all that mundane stuff. Also I do all my lecture presentations (and preparation thereof including ripping VHS to digital and graphic work) and data analysis of 750+ subjects on over 10,000 variables using SPSS and the R Project. That is my *"real work"*. And if my current MBP can do it so can the MacBook Air I just ordered. I am neither *"rich"* nor am I a *"woman"* yet the MBA has perfectly adequate capabilities for my needs which in many respects are NOT "light duty". The MBA is a "perfectly capable" machine for my needs. Only one USB port? - duh! I already own a hub.... The idea that the 2 USB ports on other portables is adequate is simply laughable - iPod, EyeTV, Logitech headset, serial port, etc. That's just 4 and it doesn't include printer/scanners because I've got them on wireless/ethernet..... oh, yeah, there's the camera and the cellphone.... and any number of other items..... *The notion that one USB port is somehow significantly sparser than two is not just laughable, it is ridicule-able.....*

At 60+, one of my needs is a machine that is easy to carry because at my Uni parking is a long way from my office is a long way from my lecture theatre. This is part of my definition of a machine that will do real work. Three pounds trumps the SuperDrive which I only ever use at home or in the lab where I have other machines that can do the work and now (or at least when the MBA I just ordered shows up) I don't have to carry.

In my age bracket, I am taken for a total geek. My home system is totally set up wireless including printing and scanning and backup and flashed RPC1 drives, etc. _ad nauseum_ and other services and I didn't have to call in anyone else to get it all working.

*chas_m* - some of your stuff is opinion to which you are intitled, but your comments about "rich" and "women" and "geek(s)" are offensive and I hope you will see fit to withdraw them. I think you need to back up and try to see the world from a perspective other than what you see out of your own a$$.




chas_m said:


> When the price of SSDs come down, and the retail price is adjusted a bit, then the Air will seem much more "in the mainstream" for most non-geek people.


Somebody has to be an early adopter in order for this to get off the ground. Irony here is that the MBA continues the philosophy of the very first Apple notebook the PB100 - minimal machine, peripherals separate. A philosophy which also drove the much loved and sorely missed Duo line. Third time lucky perhaps.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)

Spot on. Good find, MacWbee.
As soon as I saw the MBA, I figured it wasn't for the same general market as other Mac hardware.

I've got a feeling that the complaints are from people who feel a bit miffed, a bit left out. "What? Nothing for me? _That_ thing's no good for ME!!"

(I rather think it _will_ go very well with my Armani suit actually.)


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

rgray said:


> *The notion that one USB port is somehow significantly sparser than two is not just laughable, it is ridicule-able.....*


rgray:

I'm sorry if my characterisation caused you to "gag." I agree entirely with your comments and think you provided a most excellent perspective.

It was not at all my intention to dismiss the Air as incapable of "real work," quite the opposite. I was trying to make people here understand that not everyone is, or needs to be, a "power user" which seems to be defined (at least on this forum) as "someone who fully exploits both the computer and all its peripherals nearly continuously."

Not everyone needs access to everything a computer can possibly do all the time. I use my BlackBook for everything from video editing (amateur) to website building to burning CDs/DVDs and "the usual stuff" (email, surfing, etc). I love having a machine that can do all these things, but I really don't do the kind of stuff I need a CD burner for all that often. 90% of the time I am doing things on it that an MBA would be able to handle with ease, like ... um, posting here!  

And finally, I don't care _how_ perfect the MBA is for you, its styling and design philosophy does _indeed_ appeal strongly to rich women. I've asked.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

chas_m said:


> And finally, I don't care _how_ perfect the MBA is for you, its styling and design philosophy does _indeed_ appeal strongly to rich women. I've asked.


I don't think I know any rich women (tho' I still think that is an unfortunate generalisation) so I can't ask. Maybe they are just not telling me they're rich.... Maybe when my MBA arrives one will follow me home...


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2008)

I've posted this elsewhere, and I know Chas m has seen it, but some of you other people mind find it interesting. I think it's pretty spot on myself.

The real point of MacBook Air - and why everyone is missing it. - Mac Forums


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

> The MacBook Air was released to remind the world that Apple is way ahead of the rest of the industry. It is to plant in the minds of the consumer today the seed that will sprout into a visit to an Apple shop for a new laptop in 2010.


Then the MacBook Air is perfect. I can admire it from afar, because I won't be wasting my money on an overpriced, underpowered and hindered piece of future technology--_today_.


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

Here's one extremely positive hands on review for the MacBook Air

Mac Forums - View Single Post - Official List of Members Waiting for their Macbook Air to Ship and Arrive and Photos!



> I got to play with the 1.8/SSD model. All of you who opted for this configuration are in for a real treat -- it is speedy. Basically, sub-one-bounce application loading. I wasn't able to do anything heavy-duty, of course, but the feel I got was of a total performance package on par with a current MBP. It left a strong enough impression on me that I'm seriously considering abandoning my plan of upgrading later and opting for the SSD now. The $3K pricepoint actually began to make sense.


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## Snapple Quaffer (Sep 2, 2003)




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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

And now, a good laugh:


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## cap10subtext (Oct 13, 2005)

LOL, nice. :lmao: 

Despite all the infighting people seem to be buying them when I browse mac forums.

BTW, if Axiotron made a Modbook Air, I'd sell a kidney.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

Like so much of the hardware that Apple designs-it is truly a thing of beauty. They have the WOW factor locked and loaded as a default setting.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Here are interesting tidbits from an Ars Technica review:



> Well, my patience lasted about five hours. *Five hours later, the transfer still had not started, because the Air still had not calculated the amount of time it would take.* It was an 80GB drive (about 70GB of which was full) transferring to another 80GB drive. I asked everyone—my Twitter friends, fellow reviewers from other sites—whether anyone had successfully completed the task over WiFi, and not a single person said yes. In fact, all of my fellow reviewers said that they tried and eventually gave up, and most people in general said that I was insane for even trying it. Yes, I was.





> WiFi signal on the Air is... okay, but not great. Like the MacBook Pro, the Air's antenna is probably shielded by aluminum and therefore not as sensitive as it could (and should) be. While this has yet to cause me difficulties, I can see it being a problem for anyone who had issues with WiFi on a MacBook Pro. It's no MacBook, for sure.
> 
> *By way of illustration, where I'm sitting right now, I can easily see over 25 wireless access points on my MacBook. I can only see 13 on the MacBook Air. Your mileage may vary.*





> The next stop along this path of disappointment is battery life. Apple advertises that the MacBook Air can get up to five hours of wireless productivity on its 37-watt-hour, non-removable battery. This is a hair less than what Apple typically estimates (guesstimates?) for its other notebooks (up to six hours), but it also includes "wireless productivity," which is not considered on its other laptops (those estimates are based on WiFi being turned off). Because of Apple's willingness to include the "wireless productivity" in its advertising, I was optimistic that the battery life might come something close to that, especially based on my usage.
> 
> As I said before, I usually keep the screen brightness on the lowest setting out of personal preference, and all I ever do on my laptop (these days) is write and surf—sometimes with some music, and the bit of occasional graphic editing. Those aren't exactly energy-intensive uses, and I can pretty regularly squeeze a good 3:45 to four hours out of a brand new MacBook or MacBook Pro battery. I'll cut to the chase here: *the MacBook Air's battery life sucks. A lot.* I found it to be a pretty big disappointment, holding it to my admittedly-high standards. I ran down the battery from full charge four times and came out with an average of two hours and 33 minutes...


With the issues the author is having, clearly the MacBook Air just isn't meant for _him_. 

Welcome to the future.

And my favorite quote: _One way to look at the MacBook Air is as the largest and most capable iPod in Apple's line—think of it as an iPod touch Extreme with a built-in keyboard._


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

MannyP Design said:


> Here are interesting tidbits from an Ars Technica review:...
> With the issues the author is having, *clearly the MacBook Air just isn't meant for him*.


Actually, this quote is from the same reviewer:

"Despite all of the Air's (sometimes glaring) flaws, I plan to keep it and use it as my notebook from here on out ..."




.


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

And concerning the battery life:


MannyP Design said:


> Here are interesting tidbits from an Ars Technica review: ...I'll cut to the chase here: *the MacBook Air's battery life sucks. A lot.* I found it to be a pretty big disappointment, holding it to my admittedly-high standards. I ran down the battery from full charge four times and came out with an average of two hours and 33 minutes...


Here's what MDN says about the ARSTechnica battery experience:

MacDailyNews Note: Something may be wrong with Ars Technica's MacBook Air, as their battery life experience does not match that of other respected reviewers. For example: 
The Wall Street Journal's Walt Mossberg reported, "In my standard battery test, where I disable all power-saving features, set the screen brightness at maximum, turn on the Wi-Fi and play an endless loop of music, the MacBook Air's battery lasted 3 hours, 24 minutes. That means you could likely get 4.5 hours in a normal work pattern, almost the five hours Apple claims." 
USA Today's Ed Baig reported, "Air's battery life is decent. I got about three hours and 40 minutes as I surfed the Web, used Remote Disc and wrote." 
Newsweek's Steven Levy reported, "The battery life is quite acceptable--I didn't have time for a definitive study but was getting only slightly less than the five hours per charge that Apple promises." 

Welcome to the future! 

.


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

A nice and thorough review. Thanks for the link, MannyP!


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## RISCHead (Jul 20, 2004)

We're all so used to 2-3 hrs of battery life, that it truly doesn't feel like a big deal... 5 hrs is nice - I get that today with my extended battery pack,
but most of the time there is ample opportunity to plugin in a 2-3 hr period.
It is liberating to not have to walk around with a brick though 

I went by Yorkdale on the weekend and it is a sweet machine - from a touchy feely perspective


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

More on the Air--with the 64 Gb solid state drive: Ars Technica

Also, it looks like the battery life with the previous MBA is NOT necessarily an isolated issue.



> *Battery life*
> In the discussion thread for our MacBook Air review, many readers questioned whether my (average) 2.5 hour battery life was legitimate. I was constantly using the machine during that time as *I described above and on lowest brightness (since that's how I actually use a notebook) and with WiFi on but Bluetooth off—here at Ars, we believe in real-world battery tests, not just turning everything off and pretending the thing isn't on just to see how long it will last while looping a song. My times ranged from 2 hours and 19 minutes to 2 hours and 44 minutes, depending on what I was doing during that time span*.
> 
> *Speaking to others about the battery life of the Air, my averages turned out to be, well, pretty average. Based on actual use, users I spoke to were getting between 2:00 and 2:45 depending on screen brightness and levels of disk activity.* Taking that into consideration, we are (or were—keep reading) confident that the HDD model's battery life is indeed the real deal.
> ...


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## Suite Edit (Dec 17, 2003)

MannyP Design said:


> More on the Air--with the 64 Gb solid state drive: Ars Technica.


Boy, what disappointing news about the SSD performance! I was already counting my pennies for one of those... but now.... :S

Although, he didn't mention the failure rate on the iPod video HDDs vs the SSD. Maybe there aren't clear numbers for that?


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## Atroz (Aug 7, 2005)

Suite Edit said:


> Boy, what disappointing news about the SSD performance! I was already counting my pennies for one of those... but now.... :S


You could look at it the other way, you just saved $1K!


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## SoyMac (Apr 16, 2005)

MacBook Air selling ... sellling ... selling ...

Please see:
Demand Strong For MacBook Air


.


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## rgray (Feb 15, 2005)

SoyMac said:


> MacBook Air selling ... sellling ... selling ...


Sold! I've had mine for about 2 weeks, and am in love. It does everything I need - email, surfing, writing, preparing lecture presentations, a modicum of graphics, some data analysis in R, etc.. It is easy to carry on the long walks across campus to and from lectures and the office.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

I was watching Canada AM this morning, and they had an informal review of the MBA. The reviewer showed Lenovo's "more practical" competition to the MBA and the host, Seamus (upon seeing the Lenovo), said "We're only three minutes in and you've made me a "thin" snob. :clap:


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

The haters just can't deal with it ...

THE MACBOOK AIR IS A HIT!!!

I TOLD YOU SO!!!

tptptptp


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2008)

chas_m said:


> The haters just can't deal with it ...
> 
> THE MACBOOK AIR IS A HIT!!!
> 
> ...


Slap!


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)




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