# "Oriental" is a racist term



## dingbat (Mar 17, 2008)

I recently joined this community after lurking for many months. I live in Toronto. My apologies to everyone who does not - it is my cross to bear.



My city councillor is Rob Ford. He is known as a maverick and he does seem to have some personal issues (I am sure you could Google-up some of his past digressions). But he means well, I think, and I do tire of lawyer-type politicians, so in some ways he is a breath of fresh air.

Recently he has been taken to task for calling Asians "orientals". Now, I do have issues with the context of his remark and there certainly appears to be racist overtones to it - here it is for your edification -

“Those oriental people work like dogs. They work their hearts out. They are workers non-stop. They sleep beside their machines. That’s why they’re successful in life. I went to Seoul, South Korea, I went to Taipei, Taiwan. I went to Tokyo, Japan. That’s why these people are so hard workers (sic). I’m telling you, the oriental people, they’re slowly taking over."

I can sympathize with his problem in one way, and I have learned something valuable that comes at Mr. Ford's expense. That is, I myself did not know that the word "oriental" was considered to be a disgusting, contemptuous and obviously racist term comparable to the more (unfortunate as they may be) "common" derogatory terms that low-lifes use against visible minorities in North American society.

So having learned this, I will never use the word "oriental" again for fear it could be construed as a racist remark.

Does anyone on this forum know when the word "oriental" became a racist term, and how this came about?

Also curious as to what ehMac members think about this.

Cheers,

dingbat


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

I am Caucasian. He/she is Oriental. 

I don't think either is racist in any way. 

No more than as in you are Canadian, but he is British and she is European, for example.

The guy is out to lunch IMHO.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Uhm that would be asian 

The Orient is actual the middle east



> Douglas Little, in American Orientalism: The United States and the Middle East Since 1945, provides a practical, competent overview of American relations with the Arab world, but one that will leave you in search of either drama or meaning. Little, a history professor at Clark University in Massachusetts, is good at chronological exposition, has blackened many a note card, and boasts a hefty bibliography. Yet the outcome is a book that will make you marvel at how someone could tackle such an enthralling subject and make it sound so flat.
> 
> The title doesn't help. Whenever the word Orientalism is used, people on all sides of the Middle East studies divide reach for their pistols. They will safely pack them away upon scanning Little's tome, however. He never really uses the term in an interesting way, in part because his definition is anemic: American Orientalism, he argues, is "a tendency to underestimate the peoples of the region and to overestimate America's ability to make a bad situation better." One suspects that even the late Edward Said, who famously developed the concept of Orientalism in a 1978 book of the same name, would wince: "What of the nexus of knowledge and power creating 'the Oriental' and in a sense obliterating him," Said might well sneer, citing himself.


The orient is a region, asian is subpopulation.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

can we call Europeans Occidentals?


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

My blood boils when I hear "Oriental" because it reminds me of cheesy haircuts, cars that look like one another save a few subtle differences, slant eyes, and Rick Astley . More or less a time where Asians were not so understood so there was a lot of stereotyping of us. I don't take it as racist remark so much but times have evolved. It's like how it's evolved from Indians to Natives to First Nations to First Peoples to what is it now?

Please... kindly call us Asians.


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

SINC said:


> I am Caucasian. He/she is Oriental.
> 
> I don't think either is racist in any way.
> 
> ...


 I’m not that fussy I will answer to “Hey You.” 

Wouldn’t you be correctly referred to as boreal, occidental, given your location and all?



Dictionary said:


> boreal |ˈbôrēəl|
> adjective
> of the North or northern regions
> 
> Occidental means generally "western". It is a traditional designation (especially when capitalized) for anything belonging to the Occident or "West" (for Europe and the New World), and especially of its Western culture.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I never saw it as racist, just inadequate to specify who you were talking about.


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## scootsandludes (Nov 28, 2003)

Oriental = a type of rug.
Asian = a person from a region of the world called Asia

Pretty logical to me.

Asian is the PC way of calling it, just like Caucasian 
Oriental is the same as calling a Caucasian person white.

Not the most offensive way of calling it. It's just the correct way.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

It's just Miller times way of deflecting, 300 people complain about RF's remark and it's a big deal, 3000 people protest his publicly funded vacation, er "trade mission" to China and no apology is necessary. 

How's that 1% now campaign working for you Miller? Looks like you need the cash, only 3 of your minions can accompany you on this trip. :lmao:


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Paul O'Keefe, Dr. G, csonni et al are orientals if you are to believe the NL tourism people. The tag line of advertising used to be “The Far East of the Western World” 

Now what kind of stereotype does that conger? If you conjured a stereotype is that racist? 

Am I an Oriental Canadian in Southeastern New Brunswick?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

BigDL, I have not been called that in my years here in St.John's. A student once called me a Jewish Yankee from Georgia. Personally, I use the term "Asian" to refer to someone who comes from Asia. However, if they were born and raised in Canada, then they are Canadian. Here in NL, I am forever a "CFA" ("come from aways").


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

> It is worth remembering, though, that Oriental is not an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. It is most objectionable in contemporary contexts and when used as a noun, as in "the appointment of an Oriental to head the commission". In these cases Asian (or a more specific term such as Vietnamese, Korean, or Asian American, if appropriate) is the only acceptable term. But in certain historical contexts, or when its exotic connotations are integral to the topic, Oriental remains a useful term.
> 
> American Heritage Book of English Usage


In the heat of a debate he used Oriental instead of Asian, not really something to be publicly castrated for. My wife asked our Korean neighbors where in China they were from, they got over it. As should TO city counsel over this hoopla, all a deflection.

And we'll be raising property taxes by 4%. *OMG Rob Ford said Oriental, hang him!!!*


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I don't know if the word "oriental" (meaning originating from the Orient) is nearly as offensive as classifying all of the inhabitants of this sub-continent as "dogs" and suggesting that they will be "taking over." This politician is an idiot, and I mean that in the nicest way.


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

The expression "works like a dog" is actually an old saying in the English language. It's meant as a compliment as in "Very hard working" as opposed to "lazy ass".

That's the problem these days in a city where fewer and fewer people have English as their native tongue. There are colloquialisms in every tongue which could be taken the wrong way. This is the case here.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Old news in Toronto. Ford made those remarks months ago and the whole thing has been beaten to death in the local media.

No politician (and especially Ford) is silly or stupid enough to make a racist remark in a city as diverse and multicultural as Toronto. Poor choice of words...yes, racist no.

Ford is one of the better councillors, too bad he seems to have a dark cloud following him.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

"Oriental" is one of those lazy catch-all phrases meaning "I'm not sure where you're from because all you people look alike to me." 

Mr Ford's use of the term is inaccurate (since, as was correctly pointed out, "Oriental" doesn't mean the same thing as "Asian") but he certainly didn't intend it as racist and I think intent has to be the defining characteristic in these sorts of cases. Generations of "blacks" have given way to African-Americans (and would that be "Afro-Canadians" up here??) and now nobody is quite sure what the correct term is, but they do know the INCORRECT terms! 

Maybe I'm the weird one here, but what was offensive about Mr Ford's remark to me was the implication that only people who work like dogs and sleep beside their machines are going to be successful in life. Via some documentaries I've seen on Chinese working conditions that I'll wager Mr Ford hasn't seen, I have *no interest* in a future where the worker classes are treated as slaves, which is what we have in China and other places.

Mr Ford is so admiring of the asian "work ethic" because he either (incorrectly) believes that's how they like it, or because he's happy with the status quo of a permanent asian underclass enriching the white male-dominated west. Keep dreaming, Mr Ford ...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

The overriding point here is that most do not tie the term to anything that is racist.

But I now know Asian and Oriental are very different terms indeed. Learn something every day here.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

The over-riding point here is that if you categorize one specific kind of people based on how they look, you are by definition being racist.

Lumping a billion and a half people together is pretty stupid. He identified people by how they look, saying they would behave a certain way. Textbook racism.

Was it all that terrible a thing to do, given the context? Maybe not for the average person. But we hold elected officials to a somewhat higher standard even if they are, for the most part, opportunistic thugs. There, I've just categorized a group of people based on their job.

Now, has Mr. Ford stopped beating his wife lately?


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## RunTheWorldOnMac (Apr 23, 2006)

I never really considered it racist, just out of date so I myself use asian. 

Do they still call them oriental rugs?


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

gmark2000 said:


> can we call Europeans Occidentals?


Seeing that Oriental simply means Eastern; Europeans could be called Occidentals. By extension, people that live in the Southern Hemisphere could be called Australians; people that live in the Far North could be called Borealians; people from The Ukraine could be called Scythians (or perhaps Cumanians); people from Greece would be Hellenians; people from Spain could be called Iberians; people from Armenia would be Armenians; and people from Africa could be called ******, and so on... (Some Latin and Greek terms really do stick!)

Sometimes, well, most of the time, political correctness stands in the way of pretty much anything sane. Like the feminazis that want to have herstory instead of history. Really, there are many terms that are far worse than Oriental. People just have to get over it.

The term "racist" is also abused, and one could make a good case that the politically correct use the word only because they think the term "hate monger" is not politically correct. They also like to interchange the words racist and bigot, even though they are completely different in meaning.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

HowEver said:


> Now, has Mr. Ford stopped beating his wife lately?


Nice, so much for innocent before proven guilty. But if guilty let's hope he uses the rule of thumb.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

dingbat said:


> "That’s why they’re successful in life. I went to Seoul, South Korea, I went to Taipei, Taiwan. I went to Tokyo, Japan. That’s why these people are so hard workers (sic). I’m telling you, the oriental people, they’re slowly taking over."


Funny, what he said is actually self evident, though perhaps not politically correct. They have taken over certain segments of industry, for example, the Toyota I drive (though it is built right here in Canada), the Brother and Epson printers, my iBook that was made in Taiwan, my DVD burner made in Korea, my calculator made in The Phillipines, my external hard drive made in Thailand, and so on.

Our roads are filled with Toyota, Honda, Mazda and Nissan; not to mention the growing number of Hyundai and Kia vehicles. Even in trucks, there are more Hino and Fuso vehicles. These at one time were pretty much exclusive preserves of GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Most electronics are made in the Orient, with a smattering from Europe. Most computer equipment is made in the Orient. So these things are self evident.

And I think that anyone that puts down someone for using the word "Oriental" should be exiled from a nation that should stand for the true freedoms of speech, thought and the press.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> ... as offensive as classifying all of the inhabitants of this sub-continent as "dogs" and suggesting that they will be "taking over."


And just to think of it, it was not too long ago when people were worried about "The Yellow Peril"... And if they do decide that the term "Oriental" is racist, think of all of the businesses that have the term Oriental that will have to change. No more Oriental Garden - it must be Asian Garden.

No more Chinese food buffets either, because the term Chinese is certainly a racist term, and if Chinese is a racist term, then Mandarin must also be racist, so The Mandarin will have to change their name to _The Food Buffet Representing The Fictitious Diet Of Those Who Are Honoured Government Employees Who have Pledged An Oath Of Fidelity To Their Most Honourable Great Helmsman And Who Live And Work Within The Environs Of The Imperial City Of Beijing Which Is The Capital Of A Well Known Asian Nation_.

Imagine if Prince was going to have a shindig at The Mandarin?


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

EvanPitts said:


> And just to think of it, it was not too long ago when people were worried about "The Yellow Peril"... And if they do decide that the term "Oriental" is racist, think of all of the businesses that have the term Oriental that will have to change. No more Oriental Garden - it must be Asian Garden.
> 
> No more Chinese food buffets either, because the term Chinese is certainly a racist term, and if Chinese is a racist term, then Mandarin must also be racist, so The Mandarin will have to change their name to _The Food Buffet Representing The Fictitious Diet Of Those Who Are Honoured Government Employees Who have Pledged An Oath Of Fidelity To Their Most Honourable Great Helmsman And Who Live And Work Within The Environs Of The Imperial City Of Beijing Which Is The Capital Of A Well Known Asian Nation_.


YellowPages™: toronto, on oriental, Complete Business Listings

YellowPages™: on oriental, Complete Business Listings

YellowPages™: Canada oriental, Complete Business Listings

Wow it's little wonder how anyone can get Oriental and Asian mixed up.


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## tilt (Mar 3, 2005)

I am from India, which when I last looked was still in Asia. And so are Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and all other -istans and around half of what used to be USSR.

So why is it that only people with ********* features are considered Asian? I feel discriminated against 

And if you look at it that way, even the people of Hawaii have slight ********* features. Why not call them Asian too?

Cheers


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## dona83 (Jun 26, 2005)

EvanPitts said:


> And I think that anyone that puts down someone for using the word "Oriental" should be exiled from a nation that should stand for the true freedoms of speech, thought and the press.


Nice rant Mr. Windows-can't-view-images-without-being-connected-to-the-internet-using-3rd-party-apps.

I've never got mad at anyone for calling my Oriental but that word is tied so many stereotypes of the Asian people that I prefer not to hear that word.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## Low-gun (Nov 22, 2007)

*Hurray for labels!*

As far as "racism" goes, it's mostly about the structure/meaning of the word (reception) and the rest is intent (usage). If we take any word referring to any group, generally or specifically, that contains negative connotations towards that group, well sir you've got some trouble. Generally those words that have come to be derogatory are used contextually to defame a person or member of a group as being inferior. Were it gets tricky is when the word changes meaning. 

Labels have a funny way of changing context given the 4th dimension. If a word begins as derogatory, it can be adopted by the sub-culture it applies to as a positive identifier. Being called a "Geek" was once considered purely derogatory, though there are many who self-identify as belonging to "Geek-dom" for it's positive connotations such as above average knowledge or intelligence. 

Words that were once "PC" over time can become considered rude, out-dated, or ignorant. The term "Coloured" or "Colored" depending on where you're from  was once a polite term given alternatives (the N word for example) but now seems laughable. Being "Coloured" can mean anyone who isn't "White". There are however many differences, some physical, most cultural that would separate one "Coloured" from another. I think Oriental falls into this category. It's simply become archaic, unspecific and reminds of us of a less tolerant time.

If those whom this word is applied to find it offensive, then I should say it's incorrect to use. You may call it racist if you like blanket terms, but if it is intended as derogatory/received as such, then it's offensive if nothing else.

In Mr. Fords case, his use of the term seems more like a throwback to old PC terms. His use of simple statements about "Orientals" being hard workers (I'm sure there are lazy ones ha ha!) gives me the impression he's speaking too much from his heart and not enough from his head. 

The question should be,*is it offensive?* not *is it racist?*


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## 9780 (Sep 14, 2006)

MacDoc said:


> Uhm that would be asian
> 
> The Orient is actual the middle east
> 
> ...


Depends where you are. In the UK, Oriental = china/japan/etc, while Asian = Indian/Pakistani/etc

In France it's the other way around. Gets very confusing when you travel a lot 

Patrix


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## Low-gun (Nov 22, 2007)

MasterBlaster said:


> Twenty years from now, calling people Asian will probably be politically incorrect and we will have a whole new label that nobody today has even heard of....
> 
> :


This is a good point and highlights the importance of evolving our language. Even if what we say now becomes archaic or offensive in the future, so long as we remain current to our time in the terms we use, then we can avoid some offensive comments. If Mr. Ford had done this we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

Hey, I drive an Asian car.

Cool. :clap:


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

Asians will remain orientals to me. "Politically correct" sucks.


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## Low-gun (Nov 22, 2007)

Mississauga said:


> Asians will remain orientals to me. "Politically correct" sucks.


"Politically correct" does suck because it's not actually "Politically Correct". The problem here is being offensive. You CAN call Asians "Oriental", you can even sneeze with out covering your mouth, smoke in public places or even kick pregnant women in the stomach if you want, just don't be surprised if you encounter some backlash.


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## guytoronto (Jun 25, 2005)

It could have been worse. He could have said "******".


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## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Do folks sit around with nothing better to do than make up "new" words for everything?

Sheesh. 

I've got a good word for all the whities. I heard the term "haole" more than a few times in the last couple of months. If you have thin skin it's derogatory. If you're normal, like I am, it's merely a description of what I am. 

PC has run amok.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Low-gun said:


> "Politically correct" does suck because it's not actually "Politically Correct". The problem here is being offensive. You CAN call Asians "Oriental", you can even sneeze with out covering your mouth, smoke in public places or even kick pregnant women in the stomach if you want, just don't be surprised if you encounter some backlash.


Oh crap, someone better tell Mr. Noodles then, offensive, racist bastard.

Mr. Noodles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Cole Slaw (Aug 26, 2005)

Well in my opinion "Asian" isn't a very good term either. I mean, Asian could be from Iran, India, Indonesia or Mongolia.
Obviously very different kinds of people thrown in the same pot.
I see "Oriental" more as meaning people from the Far East, such as China, Japan, etc.
Of course, I may have offended some people just now by saying "Far East".
Far East isn't politically correct either, because it is perhaps not east at all from there point of view.
I apologize to all for my political incorrectness in expressing my opinion. 
Hehe.


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## Mississauga (Oct 27, 2001)

Oriental - Eastern, Far Eastern, Asian, Asiatic - from the dictionary.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Low-gun said:


> As far as "racism" goes, it's mostly about the structure/meaning of the word (reception) and the rest is intent (usage). If we take any word referring to any group, generally or specifically, that contains negative connotations towards that group, well sir you've got some trouble. Generally those words that have come to be derogatory are used contextually to defame a person or member of a group as being inferior. Were it gets tricky is when the word changes meaning.
> 
> Labels have a funny way of changing context given the 4th dimension. If a word begins as derogatory, it can be adopted by the sub-culture it applies to as a positive identifier. Being called a "Geek" was once considered purely derogatory, though there are many who self-identify as belonging to "Geek-dom" for it's positive connotations such as above average knowledge or intelligence.
> 
> ...


I object to the term PC for politically correct. I am both a Mac user and a liberal and I find that term has too many connotations.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

fjnmusic said:


> I object to the term PC for politically correct. I am both a Mac user and a liberal and I find that term has too many connotations.


Yeah, I don't like the Privy Council either!


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## irontree (Oct 28, 2006)

Get a load of this: YouTube - Russell Peters - Asians
LOL


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## hhk (May 31, 2006)

I had an interesting moment a few months ago. I asked my 14 year old son (he is of mixed race) if he had ever been called a "*****". He answered "what's that?". He had never heard the word. He had no idea what it meant.

I immigrated in 1967. I remember walking through Toronto neighbourhoods looking for a basement apartment. We would see a For Rent sign in a window, knock on the door and the landlord would take one look at us and say "No vacancy". I remember being openly taunted on the bus and hearing words like "*****" and "****" every single day. I got into about a hundred fights in school over it. 

We have come a long way. 

Seeing fellow Asians get upset over "Oriental" makes me chuckle. It's just an anachronism. It was never used in hate. 

Ford is just plain trash. To call him "white trash" is to insult the colour white. Look at all the incidents involving alcohol, guns, etc. That kind of stuff doesn't happen to normal people. He is an embarassment and deserves to be ignored.


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## iJohnHenry (Mar 29, 2008)

If I am looking for a new-to-me passenger, and am told he/she is of Oriental extraction, that helps me a lot.

More often then not Asian would be wrong, because they are Canadian, through and through.

Just my 2 cents (before they drop the little bronze fellas).


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## Macman27 (Dec 26, 2004)

Why do people need to change the meaning of another persons original idea, which they used words to covey that idea, and change it to mean something else?

In most cases, if you take offense at a something not offensive, than you are the initial aggressor, and you become the person who is a bigot, racist, etc..


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

JumboJones said:


> Oh crap, someone better tell Mr. Noodles then, offensive, racist bastard.


And to think, Mr. Noodles has offended a great number of people with his use of derogatory terms:

Chicken - insults those who are meek and wish to avoid dangerous situations
Vegetable - insults those who have sustained brain damage in a car accident
Shrimp - insults those of shorter than average stature
Pork - insults those who are of greater than average mass

He also expresses a certain degree of prejudice: Chicken / Spicy Chicken / Curry Chicken; Beef / Spicy Beef; forcing the consumer to make uninformed decisions based on arbitrary naming rather than granting the product their freedom and right to be known by their own name, rather than being grouped into racial subclasses.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

hhk said:


> ...hearing words like "*****"


Two hundred years ago, people used to ***** their log cabins to keep the wind from whistling through, and act called chinking.

English is a language of many changable derogatory terms. Hundreds of years ago, "queer" was someone who sank in a choir; and a hundred and ten years ago, people celebrated the "gay" 90's because they were happy. When I was a kid, people called homosexuals "fruits", a term you don't really anymore.



> ... and "****" ...


Funny thing is the word "****" just means "people" in Korean, so they can't figure out why it would be an insult at all. Crazy language.

It would be a pain to have to stop the use of the word Oriental. The shipping line P&O (Peninsular & Orient) would have to be changed to "The promontory projecting in a southerly direction out of the Indian subcontinent & the region to the extreme east of the asian continent centered on the province of the people's republic of china that is de facto administered by the Kuomintang Party"

The Orient Express would also need to change to: "The rapid locomotive service making fewer than usual station stops that travels between Vienna, capital of the primarily germanic peoples of an alpine nation, and the city formerly known as Constantinople, former capital and principal city of a secular republic founded by Mustafa Kemal as a homeland for a people of primarily Turkic origin"

And what will happen to the sport of "Orienteering"?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

hhk said:


> I had an interesting moment a few months ago. I asked my 14 year old son (he is of mixed race) if he had ever been called a "*****". He answered "what's that?". He had never heard the word. He had no idea what it meant.
> 
> I immigrated in 1967. I remember walking through Toronto neighbourhoods looking for a basement apartment. We would see a For Rent sign in a window, knock on the door and the landlord would take one look at us and say "No vacancy". I remember being openly taunted on the bus and hearing words like "*****" and "****" every single day. I got into about a hundred fights in school over it.
> 
> ...


Ah, you see, that was in the midst of the Vietnam war. Anyone with slanted eyes was considered a potential enemy then. In World War II it was anyone who looked Japanese that was rounded up in internment camps in case they were a sympathizer or spy. Just ask David Suzuki and his family. Currently, it is out of fashion to be anything resembling Muslim. Although you're pretty much guaranteed to be discriminated against if you're of First Nations heritage (AKA Indians--feathers, not dots--but the dot Indians can easily be mistaken for Muslims). Yes, we've come a long way indeed.


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## satchmo (May 26, 2005)

HowEver said:


> The over-riding point here is that if you categorize one specific kind of people based on how they look, you are by definition being racist.
> 
> Lumping a billion and a half people together is pretty stupid. He identified people by how they look, saying they would behave a certain way. Textbook racism.
> 
> ...


We have a winner! :clap: 
Now I'm not one of those politically correct types that get all worked up over one word. But you're absolutely right about stereotyping a whole race based on looks.

Especially since I know plenty of Asians who are the laziest buggers around.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

hhk said:


> I had an interesting moment a few months ago. I asked my 14 year old son (he is of mixed race) if he had ever been called a "*****". He answered "what's that?". He had never heard the word. He had no idea what it meant.
> 
> I immigrated in 1967. I remember walking through Toronto neighbourhoods looking for a basement apartment. We would see a For Rent sign in a window, knock on the door and the landlord would take one look at us and say "No vacancy". I remember being openly taunted on the bus and hearing words like "*****" and "****" every single day. I got into about a hundred fights in school over it.
> 
> ...


Your story makes me feel hopeful that we've got beyond a lot of that stuff.

I was a poor, white 10-year-old kid in 1967. That word was everywhere and used very casually by white folks and no doubt many other races too. I used it too, parroting what was going on around me. A year or so later we moved to the area in downtown Hamilton that was the home to a lot of Hamilton's Chinese immigrants and I went to school with their kids. I remember this poor guy whose first name was Fook (you can imagine the teasing), but who somehow, even though he was teased (and worse) managed to still be happy and get along with many kids. I don't think his English was very good at the time, because I think they were new immigrants, so maybe he didn't understand a lot of the teasing.

I know I probably did some of the teasing myself, but I was never one to side with bullies, having seen too many in my own family. I remember purposely taking his side because I knew what was going on was wrong. Getting to know Fook and the other Asian kids and having a 2nd generation Asian teacher in Grade 5 and 6 started to break down the stereotypes that I was getting from the general culture. Fortunately I learned to get past that nonsense and I think most of our society has too, with a few pockets of ingrained and ignorant resistance here and there.

And I agree, Ford is an ignorant idiot. I'm familiar with him because of his stupid statement that hit the media a year or so ago that if cyclists were killed in traffic it was their own fault.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> A year or so later we moved to the area in downtown Hamilton that was the home to a lot of Hamilton's Chinese immigrants and I went to school with their kids.


In the Hamilton neighbourhood I grew up in, I was one of the minorities (white, mostly of British and French extraction, spoke English as a first and only language). Most of my school were Italians, Polish, "Yugoslavian", with smatterings of Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Hispanics and Filipinos. We really did not use racial epithets in my grade school, because everyone was a minority. Name calling usually defaulted to the accusations that someone or another was a homosexual. But nothing in my grade school was of any consequence. Fights were that of youthful folly, one day you were attacking someone, the next day you were hanging out with them and having fun. Many "differences" were settled over a game of football ostreet hockey.

It was not until I went to high school, in a different neighbourhood, where I really saw racism at work. And I'm not talking about someone calling someone a "*****" or not hanging out with someone because they were Black; I am talking about real hard core racism: Neo-nazis, people involved in the Klan and the Heritage Front, people involved in the Mafia and the Red Brigades, people who wanted to join the Baader-Meinhof Gang, and a myriad of other crazy associations. And I am talking about real bigotry, real discrimination, with the satanists fighting and hating the catholics, with the Irish hating the English. It was the whole thing, in close and in real life. And to make it even more bizarre - it was a Catholic school.

And these were no small minority, no small handful of dementied malcontents. These were people that organized and practiced their racism and their criminal behaviour on a daily basis. It was not just a few students, but a fair number of the teachers that got involved in "organizing". The hatred that ran through the halls of my old school disgusted me, though it took time for me to understand what had actually happened.

I prefered the neighbourhood where I lived, with all of the friends that I had, free from all of the racists, bigots, hypocrites, feminazis, criminals, cliques and special social groups. I never did get involved in school activities. I did the minimum that I needed to do, and at 3:00 on Friday, I was gone.

That is what really bothers me. People talk about some work like "oriental" and turn it into an issue; while at the same time we have real hatred and real racism and real bigotry, and for that fact, real acts of class warfare, at work within our society. To censor the words only masks the truth of the vile and putrid behaviour that lurks below the surface.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

To all the folks fuming about the injustice of so-called "political correct" language and terminology that they believe others are forcing them to use, I wonder what the problem is, really.

I have a friend named Samantha. A lot of people call her Sam and they think it sounds cute. I thought so too and called her that. Then one day someone else told me that she really didn't like being called Sam. So I was talking to her one day and called her Sam, but then said "Oh, I was told that you don't like being called that." She said that it bothered her, but she tried not to harp on it too much. I told her I'd call her whatever she wanted me to.

I have no idea why she doesn't like being called Sam, probably some old association that bothers her, but if she doesn't want me to use that name for her, I have absolutely no problem in complying. It's not for me to judge her reasons.

So if there seems to be a consensus that a minority group favours a certain name or doesn't like another, I also have no problem in using the name they prefer. I don't understand why anyone would insist on their "right" to use another name that many in that group have stated has negative connotations for them. I don't understand why this would launch anyone to go into a frothy diatribe about how "political correctness" has gone too far. Isn't it all about us just getting along and trying to be civil to each other?


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

EvanPitts said:


> That is what really bothers me. People talk about some work like "oriental" and turn it into an issue; while at the same time we have real hatred and real racism and real bigotry, and for that fact, real acts of class warfare, at work within our society. To censor the words only masks the truth of the vile and putrid behaviour that lurks below the surface.


As has been identified in some of the subsequent posts, I don't think it's the word as much as the context. Ford was promoting some stereotypes about Asians, most likely because he is an idiot, and using a somewhat outdated term along with it.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Cole Slaw said:


> Well in my opinion "Asian" isn't a very good term either. I mean, Asian could be from Iran, India, Indonesia or Mongolia.
> Obviously very different kinds of people thrown in the same pot.


I was going to bring up the same thing, I, typically use the word "asian" when I'm not sure what country the person comes from. ie. I don't want to offend or label someone by calling them Chinese, if they are actually Tiawanese, or some other thing. But then I wonder if I'm offending by using such a general label?


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

I wonder how we're generalized over there, are we "North American?" Or do they lump us in as just "American?" As a Canadian would you take offense at either? 

My friend who is Chinese, has told me her parents used terms such as "round eye" and "gui lo" which I just find amusing. But I guess I have thicker skin than some, and I've certainly been called a lot worse.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2008)

JumboJones said:


> I wonder how we're generalized over there, are we "North American?" Or do they lump us in as just "American?" As a Canadian would you take offense at either?


As an aside, while on a recent trip in Spain I heard the train conductor referring to myself and my travel companions as "Americanos" to his coworkers (in spanish). I politely corrected him (in spanish), telling him that we were not "Americanos" but were in fact Canadian. The train conductors were much more friendly with us after that ... not sure if it was an American/Canadian difference, or the fact that I spoke enough spanish to tell them the difference 

<tongue in cheek>
Racist feels like such a negative word ... Maybe the next "PC" push will be to find a new way of expressing that term ... maybe then it will be called "ethnically inconsiderate" or in slightly more forgiving cases "ethnically ignorant"  
</tongue>

Choice of terms seems to be a little like fashion. What's in this year may be out next year. I find it hard to keep up to be honest -- which leads to the fact that sometimes this can be an ignorance vs. malicious thing as well, which is still rarely, if ever, forgiven. Also worth noting is that in a lot of cases different terms have been the "proper" term to use at varying time frames -- so depending on who you are talking to/about it can be very hard to get it "right" to the listener's ears. Also, if the listener is already predisposed of the mindset of taking offense sometimes it likely doesn't matter what you say.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

JumboJones said:


> I wonder how we're generalized over there, are we "North American?" Or do they lump us in as just "American?" As a Canadian would you take offense at either?
> 
> My friend who is Chinese, has told me her parents used terms such as "round eye" and "gui lo" which I just find amusing. But I guess I have thicker skin than some, and I've certainly been called a lot worse.


I too have been called "gui lo" (don't know if that is the correct transliteration). A Chinese-Canadian friend of mine told me when someone else used that term referring to me in Chinese. He said it wasn't considered polite to use the term. At the time, although it didn't hurt my feelings or anything like that, I do remember feeling kind of puzzled that someone who didn't know me at all would use an impolite term to describe me and lump me in with a stereotype. Since, as a white person in this society I have never really felt the sting of oppression based on my race, it didn't have much effect.

But I wonder how thick my skin might be around that term if I had immigrated to China to have a chance at a better life and even though I attempted to play by their societies rules, I was being discriminated against because of my race, not getting jobs or apartments and was being called that term wherever I went. This was described by hhk in a previous posting.

Correct me if I've misunderstood JJ, but I get from your post that you are making the argument that since racism exists amongst Asians, that fact somehow cancels it out or makes it OK if it exists among white people here. My belief is that racism exists everywhere in the world, in all cultures, but people refusing to examine their own prejudices is never OK.

Maybe we'll someday get to a time when all of these terms have no sting, because racism is mostly gone from our society, but I don't think we're nearly there yet, although hhk's post above was hopeful.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

mguertin said:


> Choice of terms seems to be a little like fashion. What's in this year may be out next year. I find it hard to keep up to be honest -- which leads to the fact that sometimes this can be an ignorance vs. malicious thing as well, which is still rarely, if ever, forgiven. Also worth noting is that in a lot of cases different terms have been the "proper" term to use at varying time frames -- so depending on who you are talking to/about it can be very hard to get it "right" to the listener's ears. Also, if the listener is already predisposed of the mindset of taking offense sometimes it likely doesn't matter what you say.


I agree with that. I found myself wondering about those terms too. But I think it's like my story above about my friend Samantha. If I call her Sam and she tells me she doesn't like that term, I comply with her wishes. If she got offended at me calling her Sam, I would just try and explain that I meant no offence and will willingly use whatever name she prefers. I don't have a problem with that.

I think if someone is predisposed of the mindset of taking offence and wanted to jump on me, then there's not much I could do about that. But I think those type of people are a minority. Generally I think people who are a part of minority groups can tell from your context whether you are using a term in hateful way or are simply repeating a word that had become outdated, so they wouldn't hold it against you if you didn't use the term du jour.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> Correct me if I've misunderstood JJ, but I get from your post that you are making the argument that since racism exists amongst Asians, that fact somehow cancels it out or makes it OK if it exists among white people here. My belief is that racism exists everywhere in the world, in all cultures, but people refusing to examine their own prejudices is never OK.


Sure I'll correct you. My statement was out of pure curiosity to how people of the world perceive us and what cultural stereotypes we may have.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

JumboJones said:


> Sure I'll correct you. My statement was out of pure curiosity to how people of the world perceive us and what cultural stereotypes we may have.


My sincere apologies JJ, for thinking that you might be possibly making that kind of argument.

The reason I brought it up, is that it's a common argument that many people do make, and my rejection of that kind of argument still stands.

I'm happy to see you weren't making that point though.


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## Flipstar (Nov 7, 2004)

I'm not sure how many people here have some Asian heritage, but as a Filipino-Canadian I thought I could possibly shed light on this issue.

The main issue of RF's original statements isn't so much because he used "orientals" instead of "Asians", but actually putting forth the stereotype of "working like dogs". Yes, it certiainly may not seem like a big deal, but he is a public figure that represents a portion of voters in his area. Keep that In mind.

As for the whole "oriental" or "Asian" word issue, I would prefer to be called Asian rather than oriental. Yes, I'll admit it, I do cringe a little when i get called oriental. Do I really care that much? Absolutely not. As someone mentioned, "oriental" usually points in the direction of antique rugs and vases or some type of food. So as a rule of thumb... Sadly, it's probably better to go the politically correct route as always.

Lastly, I think EvanPitts was saying how the term "****" should possibly not be deemed offensive because it means "country" in Korean. Although that its possibly true, Americans in the military used the term to refer to Vietnamese and Koreans during those wars in the region. So im sure you can understand why its offensive to use. That's pretty much why John McCain used the term so often for many years after the Vietnam war.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

As one of the few Canadians that watched the Juno's, I found it interesting to hear Russell Peters refer to himself as "South Asian." I personally have never heard that term before.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

JumboJones said:


> As one of the few Canadians that watched the Juno's, I found it interesting to hear Russell Peters refer to himself as "South Asian." I personally have never heard that term before.


Welcome to the last millennium.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

HowEver said:


> Welcome to the last millennium.


:lmao::lmao::lmao: Thanks!


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

JumboJones said:


> As one of the few Canadians that watched the Juno's, I found it interesting to hear Russell Peters refer to himself as "South Asian." I personally have never heard that term before.


When most people say "Asian", they tend to mean East Asians: Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. ()

Though we're also in Asia, the usage of the term often excludes India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, etc. Somehow, people who originate from those countries are South Asians... Logical, no. But somehow it's clearer that way. Go figure. 

Really speaking though, it's another identification based on typical physical features, but this one is seen as more polite.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Sonal said:


> When most people say "Asian", they tend to mean East Asians: Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. ()
> 
> Though we're also in Asia, the usage of the term often excludes India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, etc. Somehow, people who originate from those countries are South Asians... Logical, no. But somehow it's clearer that way. Go figure.
> 
> Really speaking though, it's another identification based on typical physical features, but this one is seen as more polite.


Don't shoot, but I was only familiar with "East Indian" for that geological area of people. That's why I was caught off guard when I heard the term. And yes I do think people tend to think of East Asians, when the term Asian is used to describe a person. And yes, it is a logical description.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Well, to say East Indian to describe all South Asians is a bit like saying Chinese to describe all East Asians, you know? They may all share some physical similarities, but it's not all India. Granted, India is by far the most populated, but there is also Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka... not sure if Afganistan gets counted as South Asian or Middle Eastern or both depending on context.

Asia is a diverse continent, but the way the term Asian is used does not reflect that diversity. I mean, what about Russia? It's largely in Asia, though most would put Russians with other Europeans.

Descriptions are tricky things.


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