# Is algebra useless? WashPost writer thinks so.



## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

I encountered this story at http://www.daringfireball.com.

What Is the Value of Algebra? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2006/02/15/BL2006021501989.html

Richard Cohen: *You will never need to know algebra. I have never once used it and never once even rued that I could not use it. You will never need to know -- never mind want to know -- how many boys it will take to mow a lawn if one of them quits halfway and two more show up later -- or something like that. Most of math can now be done by a computer or a calculator. On the other hand, no computer can write a column or even a thank-you note -- or reason even a little bit. If, say, the school asked you for another year of English or, God forbid, history, so that you actually had to know something about your world, I would be on its side. But algebra? Please.*

So, you bought a computer in Ontario for $3245.30. How much of that was taxes, Mr Cohen?

I think Richard Cohen can now be labelled the "John C. Dvorak" of educational commentary.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

arithmetic can be done on a calculator
mathematics is the language of the universe, logic and science

another reason to discount the "journalism" form the Washington Post


----------



## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> arithmetic can be done on a calculator
> mathematics is the language of the universe, logic and science


Not to be a nit-picker, but the language of logic is not mathematics, but natural spoken language. Philosophy is not a sub-set of mathematics.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

logic, or the propositional calculus, is mathematics
nit pick away

when i was at university logic was taught by both the math and philosophy dept.
prof. cook's infomous theorem dealth with the propositional calculus i.e. logic
smartest man i ever met - truly einstein class


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Here is a good reply to the original article.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/02/richard_cohen_advocate_for_ign.php

<blockquote>Because Richard Cohen is ignorant of elementary mathematics, he can smugly tell a young lady to throw away any chance being a scientist, a technician, a teacher, an accountant; any possibility of contributing to science and technology, of even being able to grasp what she's doing beyond pushing buttons. It's Richard Cohen condescendingly telling someone, "You're as stupid as I am; give up." And everything he said is completely wrong.</blockquote>


----------



## Makr (Jul 21, 2005)

I'm not opposed to regular algebra, it's when you get in the higher stuff in high school which don't really apply in day to day things like taxes. How many grade 12 students know how to fully complete an income tax form, I don't know too many. 


In Vancouver, I know a fair number of high school students that HATE with a firery passion grade 11 and a bit of grade 10 math because you can't see relevance of it. I know one girl that's already an accomplished linguist and writer who may not graduate because she doesn't have math 11. Plus providing she does pass the course she's getting in to university for sure, but that's all thrown away if she fails.

I work with math everyday, mostly basic stuff and trigonometry, and formulas that are predifined and the like. But i haven't found a use for Quadratic Equations or anything else beyond that.

I think advanced math should be an option and instead of making the lesser "essentials math 11" something frowned upon, it should be promoted, as most kids will get a higher mark on it because it basically covers everything a typical person will find in life, so i guess it's "life" math, because you learn everything you need to learn. 

Some people "get" math and some people just don't.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Makr said:


> I work with math everyday, mostly basic stuff and trigonometry, and formulas that are predifined and the like. But i haven't found a use for Quadratic Equations or anything else beyond that.


I've not found a use for quadratics specifically in every day life, but having learned them in school I know how to assemble equations on my own, or re-arrange existing equations to suit my purposes.

Hell, even to use excel to it's full potential you need a decent grasp of algebra.


----------



## lpkmckenna (Jul 4, 2004)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> logic, or the propositional calculus, is mathematics
> nit pick away


How about this? So-called "symbolic logic" is about as useful as Mr Cohen thinks algebra is. On the other hand, "traditional" logic is a necessary, every day kind of skill, just like math or grammar.

"Symbolic logic" is an attempt to convert logic into a mathematical exercise. While that is an interesting thought experiment, it doesn't add anything too substantial to the understanding of fundamental philosophical problems.

To be more precise: _"Aristotle's logic, especially his theory of the syllogism, has had an unparalleled influence on the history of Western thought." _ See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/ or this http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-informal/

This, on the other hand, is little but a parlour game for bored scholars: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mathematics-constructive/


----------



## Makr (Jul 21, 2005)

Indeed, but that's the basic kind of algebra i'm talking about.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

following Cohen's argument one could say the same of studying Shakespeare or poetry in the high school English curriculum

high school education is already being dumbed down
personally it was a 5 yr. joke for me, oh so many years ago
so much so i even told my parents not to bother to attend my graduation ceremonies
(I always get a kick out of movies where parents are so proud of their children graduating high school)
high school should provide a foundation so people can move on with their education, not a training school for bookeepers

preparing a tax return is a far simpler (and you can have someone do it for very little money) skill to learn than understanding algebra
subjects like algebra help teach people how to think and how to attack a problem - logic and analytical skills are life long companions

then again, I was a math major so I could be a tad biased


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> to use excel to it's* full potential*


.......you'd need to be a polymath of the highest order.

I think the "life math" idea is a good one - akin to knowing the basics of music and art and if it fires the imagination and interest have additional course material available.

What I find sometimes frustrating is that math issues can snuff out science careers/interest too early and I question how closely those two HAVE to be hooked together given today's computing power.

I observe that many kids lose the interest in science when the math aspect gets too much emphasis. Fine line to walk.
I do find it odd and disturbing that basic "in the head" math skills seem completely MIA thise days.


----------



## Makr (Jul 21, 2005)

I do find it odd and disturbing that basic "in the head" math skills seem completely MIA thise days.

oh my god. Yes!

yesterdays example... 7 and a half divided by two.... people haf to get a calculator out to check.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> high school should provide a foundation so people can move on with their education, not a training school for bookeepers


so speaks the elitist. 

Secondary education needs to serve a much wider variety of purposes than preparing just for post secondary.


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Makr said:


> yesterdays example... 7 and a half divided by two.... people haf to get a calculator out to check.


It's funny,, when I was still working at LD I was often able to calculate taxes in my head before a lot of co-workers could get the numbers punched into a calculator. 

I think the problem for a lot of kids is that math isn't really hard, it's just rarely taught well. 

Another possibility is that the kids aren't being challenged enough. My little cousins teachers thought she was behind the rest of the class because she would never do any of her work, but it turned out with a little testing it isn't that she can't follow, it's that she found it boring. Now, at the age of 12 she is doing grade 12 math.


----------



## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

PosterBoy said:


> I think the problem for a lot of kids is that math isn't really hard, it's just rarely taught well.


Too true.

Admittedly, my math skills suck... badly. I barely passed math from grades 1 through 9 (usually 50-60 percent grades)... most teachers just couldn't seem to explain how to solve math problems in different ways to help me better understand why things work the way they did. They knew one, maybe two ways of working the problem and that was it. In short we both ended up just quitting out of frustration.

I couldn't understand why I had problems with math--maybe I'm too much of a right hemisphere sort of person. Who knows. But I did better in High School (maintained 75-80 percent grades)... but it's something I still struggle with today.

I'm absolutey amazed at how my wife can do math in her head. :yikes:


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MacDoc said:


> so speaks the elitist.
> 
> Secondary education needs to serve a much wider variety of purposes than preparing just for post secondary.


give a man a fish.... teach a man to fish
teach people to think and you prepare them for many walks in life


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> when I was still working at LD I was often able to calculate taxes in my head before a lot of co-workers could get the numbers punched into a calculator.


15% tax rate is not hard
10% of anything is easy to figure out - just move the decimal point
5% is 1/2 of 10% - diving by two is not too bad and then add the two numbers
voila 15% tax or 15% tip
20% tip is even easier, 2 * 10 = 20
take 10% of bill (move decimal point), then double it

$65 + tax
10% = 6.5
1/2 of 10% = 3.25
add them up = 9.75 + 65 = 74.75 without the calculator
hint: keep numbers to right and left hand side of decimal point separate when adding - just remember to carry the '1' if the right hand side adds up to more than 1

celsius to farenheit is easy too within 1 degree F

F = 1.8 * C + 32
1.8 = 2 - 0.2
0.2 = 10% (moving decimal point) of 2
so
F = (2*C - 0.2*C) + 32
12 C
2 * 12 = 24
24 - 2.4 = about 22 
22 + 32 = 55 F
again, no calculator


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Okay Brainiac, how about the Quebec tax system where you are taxed on a tax?


----------



## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

A friend of mine sells accident scene reconstruction software to police forces. 

She's often recruited by schools for 'career day' talks because she has a very cool talk (illustrated with spiffy computer graphics, of course) about how she uses all the subjects she learnt in highschool in her day to day work, and how the police use the same skills to catch the bad guys. Everything from physics (was it raining? That's going to change the friction coefficient ...) to English skills for writing technical manuals.

Most people will be far more motivated to learn a subject if they think it will have some application. Watch CSI anyone?

But learning is a lifelong skill - the real job of schools should be to open our consciousness to the incredible opportunities that exist and create a thirst for knowledge of all kinds.


----------



## oryxbiker (Nov 29, 2001)

lpkmckenna said:


> I encountered this story at http://www.daringfireball.com.
> 
> What Is the Value of Algebra? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2006/02/15/BL2006021501989.html
> 
> ...



This guy is a writer, so obviously math was probably one of his worst classes and school, and since he is a writer, he doesn't use math anyway. The only math he might use is: words in article * cost per word = paycheck


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> teach people to think and you prepare them for many walks in life


That may have been what you MEANT....it was not what you SAID.

Personally I think good communication skills writing, comprehension and being able to both follow a progression of ideas and establish one to make a point are most critical.

While I was aiming for a science and tech career the English and philosophy majors I ended up with provided the communication and parsing skills that enhanced the technological interest.

In our world communication skills are paramount but I think "life skills" in math are also critical as it plays such a large role in our decision making day to day.
The other aspect of "slow math reactions" .....you don't "appear" very bright if you stumble over simple "in the head" calculations.

It leaves a negative impression ...sort of like a politician fumbling a football in public view.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> That may have been what you MEANT....it was not what you SAID.


as the Bible you so happily bash, your words too are only an opinion
it is what YOU belive I meant, not necessarily what I said
you have a habit of interpreting things and stating them as fact 
sometimes you are correct, but you are also sometimes incorrect
to BELIEVE anything else would be raising yourself to a demigod
and we ALL know that ain't right or even left

I have yet to meet someone that became more stupid by studying math
(note, note arithmetic, but math)
it disciplines the mind, enhances the problem solving process

i guess what we should really do is define; "algebra"


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You can smudge it as you wish - what you SAID was.



> high school should provide *a foundation so people can move on with their education* not a training school for bookeepers


BTW it's TWO ks in bookkeeper

Secondary education can quite easily be viewed as a training school and and it's successful completion an end goal for many of the occupations that make up society.

If anything there perhaps are far too many Canadians with "degrees" and few "skills" .

Perhaps secondary education would serve society better if a bookkeeper's skill was recognized as equally critical to a successful human society as good essay writing and exam passing and not denigrated as "second class" as you've pointedly done.

Pride in work and workmanship is not limited to the elite occupations...better a happy successful electrician than a burger flipping electrical engineer.
Four years as an apprentice electrician earning good money right out of high school and doing "real things" has made for many a successful life and family......fancy degrees be damned.

My dad had a grade 3 education my mother a grade 8 - raised a family, successful in the community and after a hard times through the Depression had a secure and stable work and life and still lives in the home he built with his own hands.

He even made many of the tools he used to build his own house. How many of us today...highly educated......would do or could anything even close.

I think it's critical secondary education serve as wide a range of skill sets as possible....bookkeeping no exception.......and instill pride in those skills.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> BTW it's TWO ks in bookkeeper


David, 
that's beneath you
for as many typos that you make and as many times that you ask me to proof read things
talk about shooting the messenger, eh?
but please continue on your "stone tablets in hand" sort of way

as you quoted me;


> high school should provide a foundation so people can move on with their education not a training school for bookeepers


education doesn't necessarily formal "booklearning"
be careful, your bias is showing

by macdoc;


> My dad had a grade 3 education my mother a grade 8 - raised a family, successful in the community and after a hard times through the Depression had a secure and stable work and life and still lives in the home he built with his own hands.


as a son of immigrant parents i think i know full well the "rags to middle class" story
my parents, as many immigrant parents do, stressed education as paramount in my upbringing
"your job" as my dad used to put it "is to go to university"
not a terrible way to bring up a kid

and i was the first in my family to ever complete an undergraduate degree
not bad for the child of "little russians" as that harvard educator come politician would so disparingly describe my parents


----------



## UnleashedLive (Aug 9, 2004)

... damn I think I have an algebra test coming up. Glad I only have to do it in my first year


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> talk about shooting the messenger, eh?


Why indeed I was- the "messenger was being elitist. 



> education doesn't necessarily formal "booklearning"


There we go........said versus meant.



> "your job" as my dad used to put it "is to go to university"


That was when going beyond a secondary education "appeared" to be an automatic licence to the "good life".

We mostly know better now and perhaps our secondary education system should lose the first class/second class "tude that the "job" is university and get with respect for all the skills that contribute to a diverse and enjoyable society.

Chief cook....bottlewasher......I take pride in both, why it's listed in my own job description......and I do my damnest to instill it in my kids and staff.

It's why I took you on for the elitist crack about bookkeepers. 

Liberté, égalité, fraternité..........


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> you have a habit of interpreting things and stating them as fact
> *next post in the thread*
> not bad for the child of "little russians" as that harvard educator come politician would so disparingly describe my parents


Less liable to libel than in the past at least.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

a more highly educated population is never a bad idea
high school was and is a joke with no real pressure for kids to learn much
then pow, they enter post secondary institutions and are expcected to read, write and 'rithmetic



> There we go........said versus meant.


there we go, YOUR interpretation
for someone so anti formal religion you do have a penchant for pontification
almost, dare i say, big 'r' Republican

when someone evens hints at "Christianity" you immediately conjure up visions of tammy fay, televangelists, pro-life whackos
you hardly ever consider christianity as a philosophy of peace and helping your fellow human being


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> a more highly educated population is never a bad idea


...why very pontifical if I do say so 



> high school was and is a joke with no real pressure for kids to learn much
> then pow, they enter post secondary institutions and are expcected to read, write and 'rithmetic


Then perhaps my suggestion to focus on real world skills in stead of sorting the dross for you and might have some merit since you consider current curriculae a "joke" for the fast trackers. Just can't shake that down the nose view point eh??
••••••

Your diversion......ever heard me criticize a Quaker??? 
Some meme's are far more dangerous than others just as H5n1 is as nasty bugs go.
Some variants free slaves, others set about creating them.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

I'm a writer with a math degree, so I use both hemispheres. 

To some degree, I do understand that I've never been presented with a real-world situation where I've had an algebra problem in front of me, and had to solve it.

HOWEVER, because I am very comfortable with algebra, I've been able to apply it to my advantage in a real-life situations to come up with a good solution quickly. When you know how to use a variety of different tools, you have more options available to you for solving problems.

Granted, the first example I can think of where I've used algebra outside of school is a silly one, but I can see how it would apply to other things. It was building a gingerbread house. 

I had a recipe, but the configuration of the house they had given was not what I wanted to build. I wanted to figure out the maximum-sized house I could make using the same recipe. The proportions for the configuration in the recipe gave me the area. I determined the shape of all the pieces I wanted to build, and figured out all the sizes relative to each other, calling one side X. I made an equation, solved for X--done.

For me, it was the easiest way to work it out. Otherwise, I'd be doing a lot of guessing and checking to see what I could fit in--this way, I had a good answer in one step.

But I used geometry, algebra... can't remember if I needed trig or not to work out the size of the roof pieces, but I think I used an isosceles right-triangle to keep things simple.


----------



## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

At the zoo, the are penguins and huskies next to each other. In total, there are 72 creatures and 200 legs.

How many penguins are there?


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> 15% tax rate is not hard


I wasn't trying to say it was (and as a side note, ours is 14%, and has been 14.5%), i was trying to say that because I actually paid attention in Math I was pretty much the only guy there who didn't automatically reach for a calculator when asked how much things would be.

One less machine to be dependant on.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

PosterBoy said:


> I wasn't trying to say it was (and as a side note, ours is 14%, and has been 14.5%), i was trying to say that because I actually paid attention in Math I was pretty much the only guy there who didn't automatically reach for a calculator when asked how much things would be.
> 
> One less machine to be dependant on.


i was demonstrating some simple math to make "figuring" easier


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

Vandave said:


> At the zoo, the are penguins and huskies next to each other. In total, there are 72 creatures and 200 legs.
> 
> How many penguins are there?


44. Do you want the equations, too?


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Vandave said:


> At the zoo, the are penguins and huskies next to each other. In total, there are 72 creatures and 200 legs.
> 
> How many penguins are there?


let x = # of penguins
let y = # of huskies
therefore, assuming all animals are "normal" - no mutants or amputees
2x = # of penguin legs (assuming all penguins have both legs)
4y = # of husky legs (assuming all huskies have 4 legs)

1. 2x + 4y = 200 (# of legs)
2. x + y = 72 (# of creatures)
solve using our old friend Gaussian elimination
multiply equation 2, by 2
1. 2x + 4y = 200 
2. 2x + 2y = 144
subract equation 2 from equation 1
(2x - 2x) + (4y - 2y) = 200 -144
2y = 56
y = 28 # of huskies
4y = 112 # of husky legs

substituting y = 28 into equation 2.
x + 28 = 72
x = 72 - 28
x = 44 # of penguins
2x = 88 # of penguin legs

using x = 44, y = 28
let's check our "math"
1. 88 + 112 = 200 number of legs (check)
2. 44 + 28 = 72 creatures (check)

somewhere my grade 9 math teacher either groaned or rolled over in his grave


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i was demonstrating some simple math to make "figuring" easier


Fair enough. For what it's worth, with 14% I'd always just take the price, usually conveniently large and round like, say, 1600$ and divide it by 100 (as 100$ makes an even 14$ tax) and round the tax up to 15$.

So, multiply 16 * 15 and you get 240, then subtract 16 to account for the rounding and you get 224$ tax, or a total of 1824$.

Oh, and I always find it easier to break down multiplication, too.

So instead of 16 * 15, do (10 * 15) + (6 * 15), which is 150 + 90, which is 240.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> i was demonstrating some simple math to make "figuring" easier


Actually, one of the best skills I learned in math was how to quickly estimate answers with reasonable accuracy. So even if the tax rate is 14.5%, you can work out 15% pretty quickly and know that it's going to be a little less than that. Useful for checking things.

The other good one was memorizing decimal equivalents of common fractions. Comes is very handy, and it's just rote memory. It's also good for quick estimates, since if you got 51/80 on a test, well, that's slightly more than 5/8 which is .625 which is 62.5%. So you know you got a solid C.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Fair enough. For what it's worth, with 14% I'd always just take the price, usually conveniently large and round like, say, 1600$ and divide it by 100 (as 100$ makes an even 14$ tax) and round the tax up to 15$.


the old associative and distributive properties of multiplication over addition

for 14% I would just take 10% (move decimal point) and add 4 times 1% (again move decimal point)
14% = 10% + 4 x 1%

so for $1600
10% = 160
1% = 16
4 x 16 = 64
64 + 160 = 224
1600 + 224 = 1824

as with wine selections, to each his or her own


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Sonal said:


> Actually, one of the best skills I learned in math was how to quickly estimate answers with reasonable accuracy. So even if the tax rate is 14.5%, you can work out 15% pretty quickly and know that it's going to be a little less than that. Useful for checking things.
> 
> The other good one was memorizing decimal equivalents of common fractions. Comes is very handy, and it's just rote memory. It's also good for quick estimates, since if you got 51/80 on a test, well, that's slightly more than 5/8 which is .625 which is 62.5%. So you know you got a solid C.


I also use that "rounding" technique for larger fractions to reduce them down to more manageable "estimates"


----------



## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> as with wine selections, to each his or her own


Indeed, everyone's brain works differently.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

math jokes
http://www.math.ualberta.ca/~runde/jokes.html

some favourites

Q: What is the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher? 
A: The mathematician only needs paper, pencil, and a trash bin for his work - the philosopher can do without the trash bin...

=====================================

Q: How does a mathematician induce good behavior in her children? 
A: `I've told you n times, I've told you n+1 times...'

=====================================

A mathematician and his best friend, an engineer, attend a public lecture on geometry in thirteen-dimensional space. 
"How did you like it?" the mathematician wants to know after the talk. 
"My head's spinning", the engineer confesses. "How can you develop any intuition for thirteen-dimensional space?" 
"Well, it's not even difficult. All I do is visualize the situation in arbitrary N-dimensional space and then set N = 13."

=====================================

An investment firm is hiring mathematicians. After the first round of interviews, three hopeful recent graduates - a pure mathematician, an applied mathematician, and a graduate in mathematical finance - are asked what starting salary they are expecting. 
The pure mathematician: "Would $30,000 be too much?" 
The applied mathematician: "I think $60,000 would be OK." 
The math finance person: "What about $300,000?" 
The personnel officer is flabberghasted: "Do you know that we have a graduate in pure mathematics who is willing to do the same work for a tenth of what you are demanding!?" 
"Well, I thought of $135,000 for me, $135,000 for you - and $30,000 for the pure mathematician who will do the work."

=====================================

A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer are asked to test the following hypothesis: All odd numbers greater than one are prime. 
The mathematician: "Three is a prime, five is a prime, seven is a prime, but nine is not a prime. Therefore, the hypothesis is false." 
The physicist: "Three is a prime, five is a prime, seven is a prime, nine is not a prime, eleven is a prime, and thirteen is a prime. Hence, five out of six experiments support the hypothesis. It must be true." 
The engineer: "Three is a prime, five's a prime, seven's a prime, nine's a prime..."

=========================================

In a speech to a gathering of mathematics professors from throughout the United States, George W. Bush warned the academics not to misuse their position to force their often extremist political views on young Americans. "It is my understanding", the president said, "that you are frequently teaching algebra classes in which your students learn how to solve equations with the help of radicals. I can't say that I approve of that..."


----------



## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

An Economist, a recent grad, is applying for his first job. Before the interview, he was told that there would be a math test, but that he would be required to do any calculations in his head, so calculators could not be brought to the interview.

At one point, the interviewer said, "OK, let's get this math stuff out of the way. How much is two plus two?"

The Economist thought for a moment, and then answered "five".

Later, after the interview was over, he crunched the numbers in his trusty HP calculator. "Damn," he thought. "I'll never get that job now."

A few days later, the Personnel Department called him and offered him the job. He accepted gladly.

After the first month, he saw the interviewer in the company cafeteria. He decided to ask him about the math score.

"Do you remember me? You interviewed me for my Economist position."

"Oh, of course", answered the interviewer. "How is everything going?"

"Good, thank you. You know, I was wondering. Do you remember the math test, how much is two plus two? I answered five, but I got the question totally wrong. The correct answer is four. So, Why did you end up offering me the job?"

"Well, you were the closest," he replied.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Enron staff position?........ or it's auditors?? Hard to tell


----------



## The Doug (Jun 14, 2003)

I normally have three meals a day.

I never do algebra during meals.

Therefore, algebra is definitely useless three times each day.

:lmao:


----------



## iLabmAn (Jan 1, 2003)

You know, I have this same argument with my students. There may be topics in math (in general) which may not have any blatant usage later in life, however in doing the math, it works perhaps the most UNDER-worked part of our anatomy:

The brain.

I then move on in my lessons and receive no criticisms. Done.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> math jokes
> 
> 
> some favourites
> ...


Q: Did you hear about the constipated mathematician?
A: He worked it out with a pencil.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

> *Education deserves passion we devote to hockey, McGuinty says*
> 
> TERRY WEBER
> Globe and Mail Update
> ...


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060224.weduca0224/BNStory/National/home



> During this winter's election campaign, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative party *promised to create a dedicated fund for postsecondary education.*


tax cuts....$75 billion campaign promises.......from where??


----------



## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Harper practices the "new math" of voodoo economics - don't worry about it....


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Quite the segue guys.


----------



## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Beej said:


> Quite the segue guys.


yeah, i liked it


----------



## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

*Quite the Segway...*


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Not a segue at all - the type, purpose and effectiveness of secondary education is under discussion as it was with the premieres.
Question naturally arises as to how to pay for it.

Cons haven't a good record in Ontario on that score. Harper made a promise about an education fund and like Harris also cut taxes. = voodoo or deficits.

••••••

( Very good HW :clap: - I thought about that too ) 

••

I think the pressure for university education is too high and I'm glad to see the strength of the community colleges in real world skills - I think that strength and focus should be more prevalent in secondary education so that it's not seen as a second class choice and that the focus on real world skills instead of the intellectual pursuits that engage too few.

Do I know how to achieve that?? Nope 

I recall going to school there were always two or more streams - commercial and I forget what the other was but it was aimed to post secondary as a stream.

If there is diversity in post secondary education why cannot the same thinking be applied at the secondary level even within the same school where it can be.

Is cookie cutter kids the right approach?? I don't think so and I think the choices need to come earlier.


----------



## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MacDoc said:


> Not a segue at all
> ...
> I think the pressure for university education is too high and I'm glad to see the strength of the community colleges in real world skills


We agree on two things. Are those four horsemen approaching?  Still no hug.

University, at least for many, is an odd approach to skills. To think that it is 'better' or 'right' or 'superior' is just plain wrong. Everybody is comfortable with a different approach, just like people learn differently. The brainwashing of a generation to think that university = better was a huge mistake, but that's hindsight. Learning takes many forms in life.

Let's try life learning as an approach. Formal, casual, technical, philosophical, etc. Letters after one's name don't mean a lot. Be good at what you do and look to do it better or, for some, look to do other things. It's different for everyone. Society can't control this, nor should it be the parent that enables scattered thinking ad nauseum. Some sort of balance between choice and change of mind is needed. We have some sort of balance, but is it the best? 

Unfortunately this means that you can't pick one skill set and stay with it for 40 years and then retirement. That would be good for many, but national pursuits apply. We could achieve that only by locking in our wealth and watching the world pass us by. A perfectly valid but unacceptable national philosophy for liberal democracies. 

Learning new skills, ideas and practices is required (in the past it was recommended) but governments can help the process. As soon as they try to oppose it, they will cause more harm than good. I have great optimism for Canada in these respects.


----------



## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

You'll have to settle for a nod for a good post.

Now the hard part is how to effectively and cost effectively address the diverse requirements involved....not that we are doing too bad at it now.
We have an exceptionally high post secondary attendance for students but does that translate to successful and personally satisfied citizenry??

Anyone care to start a poll on job satisfaction and whether people feel their education served them well??


----------

