# What would you do if suspected that your child's teacher is incompetent?



## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

I ask this question because that's exactly what I've been dealing with since the beginning of the year. I've been taking little steps such as having meetings with the teacher, principal and superintendent and writing letters requesting information about what it is that the teacher is supposed to teach. In return I've received fragments of information very slowly. Finally, after 3 months have passed, I've been assured by the superintendent that all is well, that the teacher is doing their job. But if that's the case then why can't the teacher produce an outline of their year plan? This is the angle I've been working from since September. That's all I ever wanted and made it clear to all. If they have an outline of a year plan, one that is a bit more specific than the vague document sent home at the beginning of the year then why can't I see it? The document mentions subjects that will be taught, birthday celebrations, Christmas concert, etc. I'm more interested in what subjects will be taught, the units taught within those subjects, when during the year they'll be taught and if possible what skill development is hoped to be developed.

Is this asking too much? 

What else do you do if you wish to prove/disprove competency? 

I already had a teacher friend look over my child's books from September to October to see what has been done and there appeared to be work missing (when compared with the online curriculum). I then wrote a very nice letter to the teacher asking to see the "potentially missing work" but got more vague answers. Initially it was even suggested that the online curriculum that I used to base my questions upon was "the wrong one" and that "besides it's all being revised anyway". Both statements were completely false. That raised even more red flags. Very frustrating.

Thoughts?


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

It's a teachers job to facilitate learning, not to be organized in the same way you would be. I couldn't care less if my child's teacher didn't have a complete year plan in advance, as long as she teaches when the time comes.

Why do you need to know such details in advance? It sounds like you have trust issues. If lack of a complete one year plan is your only concern, then I think you're making a problem out of nothing. Has the teacher failed to teach subject matter properly? Do you have examples of that?


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> What else do you do if you wish to prove/disprove competency?
> Thoughts?


Don't take this the wrong way, but why do you care? What is it that has raised this concern? All school boards have a curriculum which follows the provincial one. The question is .... what do you think you are not seeing?


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

The very best teacher I ever had put the days lesson together in the teachers lounge the period before the class. Somehow at the end of the year we had covered all the required material and then some. What's more most of us knew it well enough to get above average marks on the final exam.

Had you asked this man what he was going to cover the day after tomorrow he would have said depends on how tomorrows class goes.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Why do I care about a year plan?

I suspect incompetence. Why? Because a friend who has been a teacher/principal/professor and now retired went through all of my child's books last year and said that less than 50% of the core curriculum was taught. That person due to unfortunate circumstances is longer around to help. Now we go it alone. But it was suggested that proving whether a year plan exists or not would be the best route to prove competence.

As a side note - complaints and anecdotal stories from many varied people both within and outside the school system have had negative reviews about this individual. It's enough that it's been hard to overlook. So I decided to do the work, a lot of work to arm myself with facts and ask questions that would prove to me one way or the other.

BTW, how anyone could gauge a teacher's abilities at teaching when they themselves are but a student is interesting. How could a student or parent who has little knowledge of the curriculum know what they are getting without knowing in advance what it consists of? It's been an eye opener for me. Even the principal and superintendent openly admitted that they needed to "brush up on their curriculum knowledge".


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> Why do I care about a year plan?
> 
> I suspect incompetence. Why? Because a friend who has been a teacher/principal/professor and now retired went through all of my child's books last year and said that less than 50% of the core curriculum was taught. That person due to unfortunate circumstances is longer around to help. Now we go it alone. But it was suggested that proving whether a year plan exists or not would be the best route to prove competence.
> 
> ...


What grade are we talking?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I teach my teachers-in-training students, as well as my grad students who are teachers, that your assessments should guide your instruction. Thus, if your initial assessments show that a student in grade five is reading on a grade two level, it makes no sense to force them through the grade five curriculum. This is just setting them up for failure. Individualized lesson plans are thus needed in this case.

Ask to see what, if any, formative assessments have been done by this teacher with this student. This is the initial assessments, and the on-going assessments of progress. This is NOT to be mistaken for summative evaluations (i.e., grades), but the on-going assessment of progress of lack of progress in the curricular objectives.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

I agree with Dr. G. As a teacher myself, I know that the plan at the beginning is a nice rough guide (and should be available to students and parents), but if the plan isn't working, you have to be prepared to modify, re-do, try an alternate approach, compromise, improvise. The teacher may also be in an area that they are not well-versed in; this often happens when timetabling. Principals try to find the "best fit" for everyone, but that means some people will have to teach outside of their specialty area. 

Proving incompetence should not be taken lightly. Jim Keegstra in southern Alberta was finally decertified by the ATA for teaching contrary to the curriculum; he was teaching that the Holocaust of WWII was a myth. It is hard to nail someone for something _they haven't taught yet_, because it could still be coming up in the next part of the school year.

A better question: why do you have such an axe to grind with this particular individual? Personality conflict? Does it push some buttons for you? Do you really want to put someone out of a job, or do you want to help them to improve? Take a closer look at your own motives first.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

MLeh said:


> What grade are we talking?


Grade 4.

-------------------


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Dr.G. said:


> I teach my teachers-in-training students, as well as my grad students who are teachers, that your assessments should guide your instruction. Thus, if your initial assessments show that a student in grade five is reading on a grade two level, it makes no sense to force them through the grade five curriculum. This is just setting them up for failure. Individualized lesson plans are thus needed in this case.
> 
> *Ask to see what, if any, formative assessments have been done by this teacher with this student. This is the initial assessments, and the on-going assessments of progress. This is NOT to be mistaken for summative evaluations (i.e., grades), but the on-going assessment of progress of lack of progress in the curricular objectives.*


Not a bad idea. It has been considered. Problem is I would have to communicate that to this teacher and I have a strong feeling that it would be as difficult as requesting a basic year plan. Most things I say to this individual or submit in writing (to ensure that it's clear, precise, that they have something to refer to, and to put on record) don't seem to make sense to them, just to everybody else. For example, in two meetings I've asked this teacher questions regarding the curriculum and instead of answering they deferred them to the principal to answer. This is a teacher with over 25 years experience.

In 3 months of politely asking for a more detailed year plan all I've gotten thus far is a 2 page outline of one unit on dinosaurs. That apparently took 6 weeks and a hired assistant to gather. I may have one more idea about how to deal with this but I was hoping some better ideas would materialize here. I doubt this is something many people have experience with since like with so many professions we take for granted that these individuals are competent at what they do until something exceptional happens. Like the radiologist in a small Saskatchewan town who was discovered to be completely incompetent in his job to such a degree that his diagnosis were reported to be 2% accurate. I wonder how long that went on until finally someone got involved and took a closer look?


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

fjnmusic said:


> I agree with Dr. G. As a teacher myself, I know that the plan at the beginning is a nice rough guide (and should be available to students and parents), but if the plan isn't working, you have to be prepared to modify, re-do, try an alternate approach, compromise, improvise. The teacher may also be in an area that they are not well-versed in; this often happens when timetabling. Principals try to find the "best fit" for everyone, but that means some people will have to teach outside of their specialty area.
> 
> Proving incompetence should not be taken lightly. Jim Keegstra in southern Alberta was finally decertified by the ATA for teaching contrary to the curriculum; he was teaching that the Holocaust of WWII was a myth. It is hard to nail someone for something _they haven't taught yet_, because it could still be coming up in the next part of the school year.
> 
> *A better question: why do you have such an axe to grind with this particular individual? Personality conflict? Does it push some buttons for you? Do you really want to put someone out of a job, or do you want to help them to improve? Take a closer look at your own motives first.*


How about insuring that my son is getting a proper education? That's first and foremost. If my friend determined that this teacher only taught less than 50% of the curriculum last year why wouldn't I want to step in to see if they were competent? Would you accept that as a possible outcome for your child?

Teachers don't get fired, unless it's something exceptional like you mentioned. They get moved to another school. It's hard to determine if they even get assistance to improve. I can't decide what the outcome would be if they were found to be incompetent. My only concern is to determine if they are or aren't. My friend said they were. I stated my friend's credentials already. For most people that'd be enough. Maybe if my friend was still in a position to assist me that'd be enough for me too. Since they are no longer able to assist I've decided to take what I've learned from them and try to determine this teacher's competency for myself. I've been polite, patient and willing to listen. I've sat in a meeting and basically let them do all the talking with the hope they'd simply provide me with the information that I requested and yet they continue to stall. Strange.

BTW, several members seem to be more concerned with questioning my motives than offering an opinion on the original question. Again I assume this has to do with having no experience in the matter. Please don't be offended but if you can criticize my motives for questioning a teacher's competency then I can criticize your motives for asking questions that don't pertain to the original question.


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## Kazak (Jan 19, 2004)

As another public school teacher, I'll wade in here, too. 

Curricula are shaped by governments (These days they're written by teachers, but those teachers are "guided" by Ministry officials.). Governments have agendas. Here in BC, our government gets language about preparation for work into virtually every secondary curriculum. This conflicts with my philosophy, which is that education should prepare students for citizenship (my thinking being that good citizens will become, by default, good workers, but they will also be much more). When preparation for work rears its ugly head in my subject area curriculum, I either ignore it or morph it into something more aligned with my philosophy. Bottom line: I never teach 100% of the curriculum, and I can't remember the last time I spoke with a teacher who claimed he/she did.

In BC, secondary curriculum is based on the model of 120 hours of instruction per course. In the five schools at which I've taught, no timetable has ever provided more than 108 hours of instructional time (before erosional factors such as announcements, assemblies, drills, pep rallies (shudder), field trips, early dismissals, etc.). How should a teacher teach 100% of the curriculum in approximately 85% of the time?

As my colleagues above do, I also begin with a plan for each course, but I recognize that not only might it change, but also that it MUST change in order for me to meet the needs of each particular group of learners.

I question the need to "prove competence." I think it's more appropriate (and fairer) to assume competence and prove incompetence, if necessary. When I worked at the district level, I was sometimes called upon to observe and offer guidance to teachers whose competence had been questioned. From these experiences, I learned that while there are a number of teachers whom I would describe as "minimally competent," there are few who are flat-out incompetent. And no, I don't think that's just a semantic difference. From the student's point of view, I think it's the difference between meeting many of the learning outcomes of the course without developing any enthusiasm for the material (minimally competent) and meeting few of the learning outcomes of the course in an environment that is not conducive to learning (incompetent).

Minimally competent teachers are often defensive about their practice, which seems to be your experience, MM. fjnmusic is right when he talks about teachers being mis-assigned as a result of staffing and timetabling policies. I have no doubt that if I ever had to teach PE, my competence would be questioned in no time, and those concerns would be legitimate.

In a perfect world, all teachers would be competent or better. In this world, we have a wider range (and that goes for private schools, too, MCB). My bottom line (which no one will like) is this: Is your child in physical or emotional danger in this teacher's class? If yes, get him or her out of there tomorrow. If no, bite the bullet and look for ways to augment your child's learning at home. The principal is apparently well-aware of your concerns. It should be easy to avoid having your child taught by this teacher in the future, and if he/she has younger siblings, they can also be steered away from this teacher's classes. If your motives are more altruistic, and you're trying to save all children from this teacher's classes, don't bother. Unless the teacher is coming to work drunk and/or stoned, or is molesting students, he/she is not going away anytime soon, except by choice.

In the big picture, a number of minimally-competent teachers get out of teaching (it's no fun for them, either). What's most encouraging, though, is that some of them work very hard at becoming better teachers, and succeed. I've witnessed this myself several times.

Hope at least some of this is helpful.


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## Kazak (Jan 19, 2004)

Oops. I just noticed, MM, that you posted three times between when I started writing the post above and when I posted it. My apologies for any redundancies that arose as a result of my slow writing.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Kazak,

Thank-you for your response. I understand what you're saying regarding curriculum vs real world teaching. I have the same experience at my place of work. There might be 30 tasks I'm scheduled to do in a day. I can probably get all of them done if I really busted my hump and caught a few breaks. Realistically I'll likely get 80-90% of that work done during a typical day. Relative to my co-workers I'd estimate that my work performance would be well above average. So I understand the difference between what is expected and what will likely get done. A good boss will understand that and consider me to be competent at what I do despite not getting everything scheduled done.

But again, we're talking about a teacher with over 25 years experience whom I was lead to believe taught less than 50% of the curriculum last year - would that be acceptable to you as a parent or a colleague? 

Yes, I'm well aware of the limited options of what would happen if incompetence were shown but should that give a potentially "bad" teacher immunity? In Ontario I believe it's called the "turkey trot". Teachers get moved after so many years in one school and this works wonders for problem teachers. Just when parents have had enough of them off they go. Yes, I can see how that would work the other way around too. We all know there's some whacky parents out there.

Most people I talk to have this "Ah well, whaddya do?" attitude. I think that's unfortunate. Strange how people cry for accountability amongst some professions but others not so much. Worse yet, they cry to all the wrong people and tell you all the things they'd like to do, should do, would do, but don't. Can't tolerate that stuff. Either put up or shut up. I'm trying to be tactful but obviously the school knows what I'm looking for.


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## MLeh (Dec 23, 2005)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> Grade 4.
> 
> -------------------


You've heard from the teacher's perspective. I'll give you another parent's perspective, but my post is going to be mainly questions.

What started you on this quest? Was it because of your friend's assessment that the child wasn't being taught enough, or was it because your child complained or has been showing signs of stress?

How is your child doing emotionally in this class? Are they happy, engaged? Does your child go to school with some enthusiasm? Has his/her attitude changed since starting this year compared to previous years? Is your child feeling challenged to learn in this atmosphere? How is the socialization of the group?

Learning isn't about learning a prescribed 'curriculum' at a certain point. Learning at this age is about expanding horizons and learning the basics - reading skills, math skills, comprehension, and socialization - that enable us to learn throughout life. Each and every group in a classroom is different, and a good teacher will have to adjust the lesson plan to the skills and needs of the group.

Some years the class will move along quickly, grasping concepts. Other years, the class won't cover as much, because the needs of the group are for more intense concentration on particular items in order for the group to progress.

So: how is your child doing?

If this is based upon a perceived need of your child, then see to the needs of your child. Not your needs. Not your friend's needs for 'curriculum'. 

However, if aside from your friend's assessments that 'curriculum' isn't being taught, everything else is going well ... well, all I can say is 'chill'. This is one year. Perhaps the teacher has a different style than your friend's. 

My daughter had a variety of teaching styles when she was in grade school. I would probably classify her grade 1 teacher as 'incompetent', (there's a story there I'll not bother sharing here - but it did involve a meeting and my intervention did result in changes), and we had issues with various levels of competency right up until Grade 12. And yes, when my daughter was in Grade 5 I did insist that she be changed from one teacher to another - but not because the teacher was an incompetent teacher, but because of other classroom issues (bullying). But that was only because the child was miserable (her needs), not because of my needs.

So ... what are your child's needs?


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> But again, we're talking about a teacher with over 25 years experience whom *I was lead to believe* taught less than 50% of the curriculum last year - would that be acceptable to you as a parent or a colleague?


You keep coming back to this point, and its the one I find most strange. Your friend, no matter how great an educator he himself was, CANNOT realistically judge another teacher without interviewing the teacher, sitting in in the classroom, and compiling results from ALL the students under this teacher's instruction.

The advice you got, on which you seem to rest your entire suspicion, is akin to a medical diagnosis done via videotape (a la that moron from Tennessee who pronounced Terry Shiavo "just needs some therapy" a few years back).

A "year plan" is frankly THE weakest excuse I've *ever* heard for questioning someone's competence. As Dr. G pointed out, teaching isn't a sausage factory where the goal is to force every student to march to the same drum by the end of the year. A good teacher finds every student's "level" and tailors their personal interaction with that student to that level, while customising their overall teaching to a common level. It's quite trickly to do this well.

Grade 4 is a time of passing messages, an inkling that the opposite sex exists, and a growing social awareness, which may not be conducive to serious learning. I know I spent most of MY grade 4 drawing cartoons. 

Has it occurred to you that the reason your son's work shows "50% of the curriculum" is because he's only paying half-attention?

Parents, I have found on those occasions when I have taught classes, are QUICK to blame the teacher for the childs' (or their) failures. Unless you have some evidence of serious INcompetence, I don't think you have a leg to stand on here.

If you feel your son isn't progressing as he ought to, you should supplement his schoolwork with your own home-work. At worst, this will make up for the "incompetent" teacher; at best, it will give your son a huge advantage over other kids going forward. Seems like your energy and effort could be directed more productively in that manner, IMO.


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## Lichen Software (Jul 23, 2004)

*An old parent's perpective*

We had the same problems that you describe - abysmally ignorant teachers at that level - And higher. 

As someone else pointed out, grade 4 is not all about curriculum. We were proactive in our kids education. They could read by kindergarden. We monitored what they learned and and tryed to be good examples. That is #1. Education starts at home. Just like the rest of the real world, you cannot depend on the "experts " actually being there for you. 

Then the kids are left with the real "real world" learning - who is incompetent ( yes even at that age, down deep they know), what are different people like, what does it take to please someone enough to get them off your back, how do you get along with other kids male and female at your age. You know, learning life.

If you see signs of harrasment or unfairness, by all means, step right in and find out the facts on a particular issue. We did that. After doing it once or twice, teachers lived in fear of not treating kids fairly. My wife is quite formidable when aroused. 

By all means, find out what the curriculum is and if it is not being rounded out, try to round it. But more important is going back to #1, instilling the tools to learn and a life long love of learning. That is really the power in the three R's. People can feed you all the crap they like, but armed with the three R's, you can eventually push through.

From where I sit right now, you appear to be peeing in the well and messing up any sort of relationship that can be formed between you child and that teacher. This can colour your child's day, every day. Teachers are human and have human failings. If the teacher is truly incompetent, they may also be spiteful. You cannot fight that because you are not in a position to spend every day in class. You may actually be doing more harm than good as you are singling you child out as a problem. No, that should not be a problem, but this is the real world and your child is left to deal with it every day after you stir the pot. Human dynamics are at work and in the world of power right now it is Teacher 1, Child 0. Don't make him or her a target. 

Don't think that this is lightly said. More than once I felt myself in the positon of either having to let it slide or "Take a teacher out". I felt strongly that if I had to poison the well that badly, I also had a responsibility to make sure that that teacher was not left in a postion so that the well could be poisoned again.

The other two things I think about:

1. Even the very worst person is valuable in that they can serve as a bad example

2. Even if everything you have said is absolutely true, this teacher may have an overriding quality or traite that makes them very valuable. I remember an english teacher in high school. He was hard to get along with, what ever you got as a mark for your first essay fo the year, that was your pegged mark for the year. That was the downside. The upside was every two years he ran a musical production. And it was a big deal with hired professionals such as voice coaches etc. And the production was of near professional quality when done. And there was a high participation rate in this production. This was the only activity where a wide array of students worked on a project basis starting with nothing and working it forward to a well honed finished product. In my humble opinion, the fact that he did this for so many kids for so many years was as valuable as if he had been the very best english teacher in the world. These kids saw the real world creation of a total product. It was not so much about dramma or musicals as it was about this is what a large job well done looks like. And you were a part of it.

Sorry to ramble on. Been in your shoes and had to deal with it. I tried to be a constructive as possible. End result: Two engineers and a business major. So, it is not the end of the world. There are things going on that matter but are not in the curriculum. Watch for harrassment, abuse and other specific issues an deal with them as they arise. For the most part, children are plastic and adapt to their environment. Learning to do that is part of the education. By and large they will do it better than you will.

Hopefully I have been constructive and not ranting here.


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## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Some teachers are better than others, no doubt. But the status of the "official curriculum" is often a sore point because it's dictated by the various ministries and school boards. In theory, the lesson plan isn't supposed to deviate much from that, so some teachers may be reluctant to spell out exactly what they're doing. I don't think that's conducive to a transparent or trustworthy education system, but the top down "guidance" may force them into reluctance.

My radar goes up only when I feel that my child's class is learning less than another class at the same grade level in the same school.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Lichen Software said:


> We had the same problems that you describe - abysmally ignorant teachers at that level - And higher.
> 
> As someone else pointed out, grade 4 is not all about curriculum. We were proactive in our kids education. They could read by kindergarden. We monitored what they learned and and tryed to be good examples. That is #1. Education starts at home. Just like the rest of the real world, you cannot depend on the "experts " actually being there for you.
> 
> ...


I think you and I are in the same ballpark as far as understanding the situation without having to go into a great amount of detail. No offense to anyone else who offered advice.

Believe me I haven't gone overboard with this. It's been a very polite, patient back and forth. Many times I've flipped flopped on whether I'm wasting my time or spending my time wisely. Initially I too was of the opinion that I'd make up for any shortcomings that may result due to this teacher's potential inadequate abilities. My son receives a lot of help at home and is doing fine based on the work he's given. Unfortunately/fortunately the aforementioned friend was really passionate about their job and suggested that my son was missing out on a much richer education, even a basic education. I had many discussions about it with them suggesting that my son with our help could overcome this teacher's lack of skill. They insisted that the first years of school are important and a bad teacher can make a huge impact on a student's future. This idea has been reinforced with others in the profession. How is it I know so many teachers who agree that this is a problem?

I'll add this - last year this teacher did single out my son. There was a reward system in place for good behavior. The reward was a some little plastic toy at the end of the week. For eight consecutive weeks he could not earn a prize. Sometimes he was the only one who left the class without one on Fridays. We asked the teacher what the problem was and they suggested he spoke out in class too much. Fine, we got on that right away and continually reminded him to shape up. This didn't seem to matter. We took away his favorite activity at home for 2 weeks. Didn't help. Then we investigated his behavior with other another teacher he had for one subject. She said he wasn't outspoken or at least no more than any other child. As well, he was never put outside the classroom for misbehavior while other classmates were. He was never in the principal's office while other classmates had been. Yet, all of these other children could still sometimes earn a prize. We realized our son's behavior wasn't the problem. I asked the teacher about this and they could not explain it. They continually went off on tangents about how life isn't fair. That was it. After that talk the situation changed and he always got a prize. I let that incident go and had many pleasant conversations with this teacher afterwards. My wife? That's a different story. Needless to say when this curriculum topic was brought into light after the first year I had doubts as to the character of this teacher.


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## bryanc (Jan 16, 2004)

I'm somewhat taken aback by the idea that any reasonably competent adult could be unable to teach any subject at the grade 4 level... I suppose there are some who couldn't really teach music, P.E., or French/English, but otherwise, any adult should not have trouble with the subject-matter.

That being said, teaching is not independent of the subject matter, and someone who is a great music teacher may be a terrible science teacher... so I suppose there may be some merit to this idea.

At any rate, I applaud the OP for taking action on their perception of teacher competence. I think we let teachers languish in a morass of administrative/economic constraint and parental/societal apathy. Everyone talks about how important good education is, but very few people do anything beyond asking "how was your day at school?" with regard to ensuring their kids are getting it. If more parents were holding their kid's teachers' feet to the fire, the good teachers would be standing out, and the bad teachers would be getting better or getting a different job.

Even at the grade 4 level, a specific curriculum should be available to parents (albeit with the sorts of caveats that have been mentioned regarding how things change as the school-year progresses). More importantly, specific learning objectives/measurable outcomes that are being worked towards should be clear to the parents, as well as resources the parents can use to help their children progress at home.

We have taken the strategy of contacting the school to ask for these resources, and to ask how they apply to the specific curriculum objectives for Grade 4 so we know how to use them. The school was somewhat helpful (they told us "It's all on the website"... which it kindasorta is... if you search long enough... but it gave us the ammunition we needed to ask questions of the teacher regarding how to interpret the language in their gobeldygook Educationeese statements of learning objectives for Grade 4, and to find out how students are being assessed). 

Overall, I suspect the schools are hard-pressed to keep the schoolyard violence under control, and to prevent the children from going berserk in the classrooms, and therefore the curriculum and instruction is an afterthought. If you want your kids to actually learn substantive subject-matter you have to teach them yourselves; or better yet, teach them how to find out for themselves.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

So far, I can't see anything in this.

At a certain point, you just have to accept that there are better teachers and worse ones. Perhaps this teacher is great, but inattentive; is average; or really stinks. But it is entirely possible that your meticulous examination of this teacher is having negative consequences on how your child is learning: if you are always asking about the teacher's performance, explicitly or not, your child is going to pick up on it. He may not be saying in class, "My dad thinks you can't teach!" or he may be; perhaps it's subtle, perhaps it's very loud.

The other result that your child may be picking up on is "My child can't learn!" Not every teacher graduates at the top of their class, follows the curriculum, shows up on time, can spell, can teach the way you want them to teach. Similarly, not every child is going to be a star: some are leaders, some are not. You can spend a lot more time fretting over this, or you can be far more positive and do what every responsible parent does: in small doses, teach them yourself. If you're lucky, next year you'll get a teacher--sorry, next year your _child_ will get a teacher--who will provide the attention to the curriculum and to the children that they deserve, if that's the problem now.

Don't take stuff away if the teachers aren't rewarding them with toys--that's a double result for something that might not be much of an issue.

Have some fun with your child. Do the things kids love to do. If you like, incorporate learning, but don't overdo it: you know, a few math games while you drive, that kind of thing. Pony up for music classes: kids that learn instruments generally far outperform other kids in every aspect of learning. Children love to *play.*

But what you shouldn't do is obsess about this teacher, and absolutely don't obsess over whether they follow the 'curriculum' or not. Learning is about way more than the subjects that are taught. And as the child gets older, they're just learning how to learn anyways. Eventually, they need to teach themselves. That's much later of course.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

HowEver said:


> So far, I can't see anything in this.
> 
> At a certain point, you just have to accept that there are better teachers and worse ones. Perhaps this teacher is great, but inattentive; is average; or really stinks. But it is entirely possible that your meticulous examination of this teacher is having negative consequences on how your child is learning: if you are always asking about the teacher's performance, explicitly or not, your child is going to pick up on it. He may not be saying in class, "My dad thinks you can't teach!" or he may be; perhaps it's subtle, perhaps it's very loud.
> 
> ...


Interesting comments.

*As for the reward thing, we didn't take away something from him because he didn't get a toy. We took away his favorite activity because he was not EARNING that toy with the appropriate behavior according to his teacher - which turned out to be a farce. We never focused on the reward and always made sure he understood that.*

We are doing a great deal with our children. We help them with their homework and my son seems to be having a good year at school. But we had to take a look at what was being done in class. A responsible parent does these things. My wife could tell you endless sob stories from other parent's negative experiences with this teacher (people seem to cry on her shoulder for some reason). Instead joining in with all that drama we decided to do something constructive. Something of an original idea in this world I think.

Looking to see if somebody is doing their job seems to be a touchy subject with some people around here. Nobody is on a rampage and I've only focused on the professional issues not the personal. I've had to coach my wife to stay focused on that as well. I think we've handled it rather well but have come to a crossroads as to what to do next. Fortunately, letting my mind wander while watching my daughter's swimming lesson this morning has given me an idea. You never know when stuff like that will happen. Trudeau would go for long walks.  I think I may have found an exit strategy that makes everybody happy.

Thanks for everybody's input. This is a hot topic the nation over and I think there'll come a day when measures will be taken to make teachers more accountable for what they're doing in class. May make the situation better, or worse, we shall see.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

One does need to remember that the purpose of tests is to see how well you write tests. 

What is rewarded is being able to quickly memorize information, being able to hone in on high point value questions, being able to reason the correct answer and being able to skip past some questions in favour of others. When the tests are finished we retain what we think we need. With most students and most subjects the vast majority of what they knew when they wrote a test is soon forgotten. The exceptions are skills or knowledge that are constantly in use. The mind has a remarkable ability to label some information as useless and automatically relegate it to the trash bin. 

Some teachers have a wonderful ability to gain students interest and not just show them information but explain why it is important to the student. Others can literally put an entire class to sleep. 

This was true 50 years ago and is true today. Hopefully every child encounters at least a few great teachers along the way. They will more than offset the damage done by the duds.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

bryanc said:


> I'm somewhat taken aback by the idea that any reasonably competent adult could be unable to teach any subject at the grade 4 level... I suppose there are some who couldn't really teach music, P.E., or French/English, but otherwise, any adult should not have trouble with the subject-matter.
> 
> That being said, teaching is not independent of the subject matter, and someone who is a great music teacher may be a terrible science teacher... so I suppose there may be some merit to this idea.
> 
> ...


Yes, we are definitely on the same page.

I've decided to submit a letter that will require a written response stating that all is well, that our concerns have been met, what steps have been taken to meet them, and that they are satisfied that this teacher is doing their job. Then we'll leave it alone. Next year, if it becomes evident that our child and the other children are struggling out of the ordinary (the other parents will definitely let my wife know, as usual) then there will be some serious questions that will have to be answered. With the written response in hand they'll have a lot of trouble explaining the problem, especially since our son's latest report card indicates he's at least meeting all the requirements and excelling in some. This is the best idea I can think of where the issue is dropped for now and everybody moves on.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MM, recently I was an advocate for the child of a parent who could not read or write. The child was being dumped into special education without a proper individualized plan. I was simply introduced as Marc. I kept asking the tough questions re assessments and prescriptive instruction. I could see that the teacher, the special ed teacher, and the principal were all getting frustrated with me asking all of these relevant questions and expecting more than trite answers. Finally, the special ed teacher asked "Who exactly are you, and how do you know so much about special education and the language arts curriculum?" I pulled out my Memorial University business cards and gave one to each of them.

To make a long story short, they were not about to give this parent a snow job when I told them that I was going to personally review all of the ISPs (Individualized Student Plans) for prescriptive instruction and explain them to this parent. 

So, MM, mon ami, go in with knowledge of what should/needs to be done and then simply make sure that they are trying to meet this sort of ISP for your child.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"I'm somewhat taken aback by the idea that any reasonably competent adult could be unable to teach any subject at the grade 4 level... I suppose there are some who couldn't really teach music, P.E., or French/English, but otherwise, any adult should not have trouble with the subject-matter." bryanc, I would suggest that you try to teach a diverse grade four classroom to see how difficult effective teaching in this sort of situation is in reality, even for experienced and competent teachers. A trained, motivated, understanding and knowledgeable person, who is willing to work hard, can work wonders for all the students in his/her classroom, regardless of the grade. Sadly, there are some teachers out there who are there simply for the paycheck and the retirement plan, and they make parents and taxpayers have an poor perception of the teaching profession.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Dr.G. said:


> MM, recently I was an advocate for the child of a parent who could not read or write. The child was being dumped into special education without a proper individualized plan. I was simply introduced as Marc. I kept asking the tough questions re assessments and prescriptive instruction. I could see that the teacher, the special ed teacher, and the principal were all getting frustrated with me asking all of these relevant questions and expecting more than trite answers. Finally, the special ed teacher asked "Who exactly are you, and how do you know so much about special education and the language arts curriculum?" I pulled out my Memorial University business cards and gave one to each of them.
> 
> To make a long story short, they were not about to give this parent a snow job when I told them that I was going to personally review all of the ISPs (Individualized Student Plans) for prescriptive instruction and explain them to this parent.
> 
> So, MM, mon ami, go in with knowledge of what should/needs to be done and then simply make sure that they are trying to meet this sort of ISP for your child.


If my friend was still in the picture I'd have had him meet with the school staff and likely this would've been resolved, one way or the other. It's tough to learn as you go and expect to get treated with the same level of respect as you did. If you're ever in the neighborhood....

BTW, ISP? I've never heard that mentioned before. Maybe they use a different term out here?


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"BTW, ISP? I've never heard that mentioned before. Maybe they use a different term out here? " Yes, this term differs across the country. Still, the idea is the same -- students who need a specialized program have this program spelled out as to goals, assessments, instructional strategies, etc. Too bad that a friend of mine is no longer teaching at the Univ. of SK in Saskatoon. We graduated from the doctoral program at the Univ. of Georgia, and he would be a great advocate for you.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

In Ontario there are IEPs (E for education). They apply when children have special needs, such as behavioural or learning difficulties, and and also used for gifted students.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> If my friend was still in the picture I'd have had him meet with the school staff and likely this would've been resolved, one way or the other. It's tough to learn as you go and expect to get treated with the same level of respect as you did. If you're ever in the neighborhood....


Certainly one should expect and give the same level of respect in this circumstance as in any other adult communications. On the other hand you can also expect administration to circle the wagons and protect their own even if they have personal misgivings. After all a bad hire ultimately reflects on those that do the hiring.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

In the case of incompetence, it's also possible that they'll circle the wagons now but find a reason to fire the person later. If the current area is kind of grey, they won't be as easy on the person if they screw up something else.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

eMacMan said:


> Certainly one should expect and give the same level of respect in this circumstance as in any other adult communications. On the other hand you can also expect administration to circle the wagons and protect their own even if they have personal misgivings. After all a bad hire ultimately reflects on those that do the hiring.


Yes, I think this teacher being in the system for so long may have admin being over-protective. Rather embarrassing I would imagine for everyone if it was determined after 25 years that this teacher wasn't capable.

Rumor has it that this individual subbed for a looooong time until a friendly principal finally gave them a job. Oh, the stories I've heard when talking to teacher friends. They offer confidential advice but aren't willing to stick their necks out. I can understand and hold no grudge.


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## Puccasaurus (Dec 28, 2003)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> I already had a teacher friend look over my child's books from September to October to see what has been done and there appeared to be work missing (when compared with the online curriculum). I then wrote a very nice letter to the teacher asking to see the "potentially missing work" but got more vague answers.
> Thoughts?


I feel like I'm arriving late for the party, but let me respond to this point at least (as a high school teacher).

Your frustration is understandable, but your 'teacher friend' should really know better than to make a judgement based on your child's notebook, the contents of which are not necessarily a reflection of the teacher. Apologies if I missed this, but did you compare his notebook to that of a student who is doing well in the class? I ask that honestly and without snarkiness.

As for this 50% figure...Most teachers I know have so little regard for the Ministry's documents that they end up in the dustiest, out of the way shelf imaginable. Have you ever read one of them? The phrases "sound and fury" and "signifying nothing" come to mind. Their purpose, in most teachers' minds, is to justify the Ministry's existence and promote a false sense of accountability. Most teachers learn what needs to be taught from other teachers -- it is a profession with a long institutional memory. If this teacher has been teaching for 25 years my guess is he doesn't need the MInistry to tell him what to teach.

MLeh's post was spot on. Don't get hung up on this "50%" figure; focus on the important stuff that happens at your son's age. Bless you for being an involved parent; we see too few of those. Your son will be OK 

And in passing...


Dr.G. said:


> MM, recently I was an advocate for the child of a parent who could not read or write. The child was being dumped into special education without a proper individualized plan. I was simply introduced as Marc. I kept asking the tough questions re assessments and prescriptive instruction. I could see that the teacher, the special ed teacher, and the principal were all getting frustrated with me asking all of these relevant questions and expecting more than trite answers.


Hmm. Those are good motives, but might I humbly suggest that if you had simply presented your credentials at first you might not have received 'trite' answers. Is it possible they were simply trying to spare you the edubabble?  

I know I appreciate knowing when I'm addressing a fellow teacher on Parents' Night; it saves so much time and improves communication. Of course, you know the circumstances best but I would've found it a matter of professional courtesy to avoid 'ambushing' this teacher and principal. I know in my board there is a tremendous backlog for testing special ed students - it may have been that the school was simply moving forward as best it could while further testing was pending.

And now I'm off to tutor, followed by a ton of essays to mark...a teacher's work is never done  Apologies for typos and such: it is a chilly night and my fingers require a cup of tea!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"Hmm. Those are good motives, but might I humbly suggest that if you had simply presented your credentials at first you might not have received 'trite' answers. Is it possible they were simply trying to spare you the edubabble?" This was her idea, so I agreed. I did not want to be threated by my position at the university, and wanted only to help her get the best for her son because he deserved this special help.


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## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

HowEver said:


> In the case of incompetence, it's also possible that they'll circle the wagons now but find a reason to fire the person later. If the current area is kind of grey, they won't be as easy on the person if they screw up something else.


Realistically you need to think in terms of finding a different teacher, different school or home schooling. A teacher with 25 years experience simply cannot be summarily dismissed unless there are serious criminal accusations and even then a suspension pending trial would be more likely.

If asking to have your child assigned to a different teacher approach it with; you feel that the current teacher does not work well with your child and vice versa. Simply saying teacher has to go will be a no go.


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## MaxPower (Jan 30, 2003)

MazterCBlazter said:


> If you can swing it, have your kids put into a good private school. I've done that with my children from day 1, no regrets.


Ditto. My oldest is in private school and my second will follow next year.

Already in SK he is learning French, Math, Reading and Science - to name a few. Later on he will learn Latin. Well worth every penny. It's just a shame that we have to pay to get a quality education.

It seems to me that for the most part, the love for teaching has left.


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## MazterCBlazter (Sep 13, 2008)

.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> How about insuring that my son is getting a proper education? That's first and foremost. If my friend determined that this teacher only taught less than 50% of the curriculum last year why wouldn't I want to step in to see if they were competent? Would you accept that as a possible outcome for your child?
> 
> Teachers don't get fired, unless it's something exceptional like you mentioned. They get moved to another school. It's hard to determine if they even get assistance to improve. I can't decide what the outcome would be if they were found to be incompetent. My only concern is to determine if they are or aren't. My friend said they were. I stated my friend's credentials already. For most people that'd be enough. Maybe if my friend was still in a position to assist me that'd be enough for me too. Since they are no longer able to assist I've decided to take what I've learned from them and try to determine this teacher's competency for myself. I've been polite, patient and willing to listen. I've sat in a meeting and basically let them do all the talking with the hope they'd simply provide me with the information that I requested and yet they continue to stall. Strange.
> 
> BTW, several members seem to be more concerned with questioning my motives than offering an opinion on the original question. Again I assume this has to do with having no experience in the matter. Please don't be offended but if you can criticize my motives for questioning a teacher's competency then I can criticize your motives for asking questions that don't pertain to the original question.


Fair enough. My motive is that as a teacher I've been the victim of a witch hunt before. The individual who seeks out incompetence usually finds what they are looking for, but of course they do not see the whole picture. 

If the teacher in question has 25 years, it's also possible that he/she has internalized the curriculum and year plan long ago, picks and chooses the most relevant parts of the curriculum to emphasize, and cuts out the filler. And, my friend, the curriculum is not perfection, but rather what those in the ivory towers deem to be important to know at this time. They could well be wrong. 

I would even go so as far as to say the most important things your child learns in school have little to do with curriculum and everything to do with socialization. Does this teacher treat people fairly? Do they set a good example (apart from covering-the-curriculum concerns?) So much of what a teacher must do these days really has very little to with the subject matter. Honestly. We teachers act "in loco parentis" for families who often spend less time with their child during the day than the teachers do, and many of whom are not even certain which home to call home. Many kids don't get enough to eat, or eat poorly; many deal with bullying daily. Many get WAY too stressed over tests, particularly "achievement" tests, and others are afraid to go home at the end of the day to endure abuse. 

Until you've walked a mile in the teacher's shoes, it's probably best best to refrain from judging. Most of the things from school your child will remember and take with them the rest of their lives have little to do with the curriculum. That's reality, and that's why I ask you to consider your own baggage when judging this allegedly "incompetent" teacher. Maybe he/she is, maybe not, but there are mechanisms to deal with that. In the meantime, how else can you best help your child?


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## Kazak (Jan 19, 2004)

Lichen Software, I appreciated your thoughtful comments. Your sensitivity to what I'll call "teachers-as-humans" is something concerned parents often overlook.

BTW, we call them IEPs in BC, too. My son has one, and I'm pleased to say that in the 2.5 years he's been in high school, I've seen a movement from the IEP being a nuisance or one-more-thing-the-beleaguered-classroom-teacher-has-to-deal-with to being a valuable document that teachers use to vary the instruction he receives and the expectations held for him, to the benefit of his learning. A couple of posters have mentioned how entrenched veteran teachers can be in their practice, so I'm encouraged that even they (and this includes me, too) can be flexible and learn to do things differently.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

fjnmusic said:


> Fair enough. My motive is that as a teacher I've been the victim of a witch hunt before. The individual who seeks out incompetence usually finds what they are looking for, but of course they do not see the whole picture.
> 
> If the teacher in question has 25 years, it's also possible that he/she has internalized the curriculum and year plan long ago, picks and chooses the most relevant parts of the curriculum to emphasize, and cuts out the filler. And, my friend, the curriculum is not perfection, but rather what those in the ivory towers deem to be important to know at this time. They could well be wrong.
> 
> ...


Please read the last paragraph of post #20.

BTW, there's no witch hunt going on here. Many red flags went up with regards to this teacher during the previous year before we decided to take a closer look at their work in the classroom. Hardly a parent who spent any amount of time with this individual had anything nice to say. Some had flat out yelling contests in the hall with this teacher. My wife and I took the high road and wrote a couple of tactful letters and I had a polite conversation with this person to resolve last year's problem. It worked to change things but we never received an answer to why they did what they did. At one point my son thought the teacher didn't like him. Fortunately he's pretty easy going and appears to have forgotten that incident. So far he hasn't had any personal problems with this same teacher this year. BTW, if another teacher could've taught him this year we would've requested it.

I'd say last year pulled back the curtain on this person's personality. This year we try and find out if they are as bad a teacher as they are at communicating with parents. Sometimes the two go hand in hand. Sometimes they don't.

EDIT: BTW, as far as baggage goes, well, I have worked evenings by choice for almost 9 years so that I could be at home with my kids during the day. My wife works days and gets home just before I leave for work. Our kids have what they need and a little more but are not spoiled relative to what I see amongst their friends. On two separate occasions while eating at a restaurant I've had complete strangers come over to our table and comment on how well behaved my children are (when they were much younger). It was very rare moments like that when I thought that maybe it was worth the effort. 

I'm not looking to dump our family problems on someone else. We have problems like any family but our "team" attitude usually handles things very well. It has to or our set-up wouldn't work. My kids do well in school, not great, but above average. But what if it's true that this individual is giving them barely the work they should be getting ( and yes, we do a lot of extra work at home, especially math and reading)??? If true then I might have a false idea of where he's at since the only others to compare him to are his classmates who are potentially receiving the same. Right? I've even thought of having him independently assessed but have no idea who would be capable. Am I getting carried away? No, I don't think so. I'm searching for answers to questions and the school isn't helping so maybe this is why it sounds so intense. If they'd be more helpful and upfront then I wouldn't be looking all over the place for help, including HERE.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that they are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit.
John Steinbeck 


We must view young people not as empty bottles to be filled, but as candles to be lit. 
Robert H. Shaffer 


Be a wonderful role model because you will be the window through which many children will see their future
Thomas Mckinnon 


Tell me and I will forget,
Show me and I will learn,
Involve me and I will understand
Teton Lakota saying

This is what I keep telling my students, year after year after year .........

Judge each day, not by the harvest, but by the seeds you plant. 


You might be one person to the world, but the world to one young person. 


Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. 

Paix, mes amis.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

*Update*

Found another educator, who was once in the elementary system (recently) but is now a professor, to help advise us on this situation (Dr.G's comments sparked this idea). We wanted their opinion as to whether we were going overboard with what we were asking for. He suggested gathering our son's books again for his review. We did that and arranged a meeting. Before he started reviewing the books he stated right off the bat that although these books can not possibly account for all the work done it should be a good representation and give an indication of the amount that has been covered thus far (someone here already suggested this). After a thorough review he said he was surprised at the level of "filler" (crosswords, coloring, etc.) and the lack of core units covered.

We then updated him on what has transpired with regards to meetings and responses. He listened, asked questions and ultimately came to the conclusion that we are not being unfair in our request for a year plan. He said, "How else does one prove the work has been covered or will be covered before the year is out?"

Now here's the clincher - he agreed that someone like himself advocating for us would likely help push things along and get a better response but he was not willing to volunteer since he felt his research funds might get pulled (he does research for the elementary system). How lucky for us. And another indication of how closed the education system is and how parents like us, who really do have everyone's best interests in mind (which is partly why we asked for a second opinion), are left out in the cold.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> Found another educator, who was once in the elementary system (recently) but is now a professor, to help advise us on this situation (Dr.G's comments sparked this idea). We wanted their opinion as to whether we were going overboard with what we were asking for. He suggested gathering our son's books again for his review. We did that and arranged a meeting. Before he started reviewing the books he stated right off the bat that although these books can not possibly account for all the work done it should be a good representation and give an indication of the amount that has been covered thus far (someone here already suggested this). After a thorough review he said he was surprised at the level of "filler" (crosswords, coloring, etc.) and the lack of core units covered.
> 
> We then updated him on what has transpired with regards to meetings and responses. He listened, asked questions and ultimately came to the conclusion that we are not being unfair in our request for a year plan. He said, "How else does one prove the work has been covered or will be covered before the year is out?"
> 
> Now here's the clincher - he agreed that someone like himself advocating for us would likely help push things along and get a better response but he was not willing to volunteer since he felt his research funds might get pulled (he does research for the elementary system). How lucky for us. And another indication of how closed the education system is and how parents like us, who really do have everyone's best interests in mind (which is partly why we asked for a second opinion), are left out in the cold.


Not all teachers, will "leave you out in the cold", and I urge all of my students to establish a home/school partnership. 

Still, I am glad you got a second opinion. Sad that this person had to fear for his research funding. 

I am NOT an advocate of "filler" or busywork worksheets. Waste of time and paper in my opinion. 

Bon chance, MM. Paix, mon ami.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

MM, if I may add my two cents worth [ again ] your comment:

"Many red flags went up with regards to this teacher during the previous year before we decided to take a closer look at their work in the classroom. Hardly a parent who spent any amount of time with this individual had anything nice to say. Some had flat out yelling contests in the hall with this teacher. My wife and I took the high road and wrote a couple of tactful letters and I had a polite conversation with this person to resolve last year's problem."

Is telling. What results have you had with your school trustee ... the issue I see is a fine line between opinion and professional practice .... which may not always mesh between schools / teachers / parents. However the trustee is supposed to be your independent voice. What you do not want to do is completely damage the relationship between your child and this teacher .... which may already have been effected.

If, and I think you believe this is also the case, have your trustee intervene and over the Christmas holidays have your child transferred to another class .... unless you are in a one-room-school I would find it difficult to believe that a swap cannot take place. Good luck.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Would you really risk a friend's research funding to have them intervene for your child?

It may not be a political thing. It may be that intervening taints the research.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

HowEver said:


> *Would you really risk a friend's research funding to have them intervene for your child?*
> 
> It may not be a political thing. It may be that intervening taints the research.


No.

Told him that we understood completely but that it was unfortunate such a concern existed. All too common it seems.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

Rps said:


> MM, if I may add my two cents worth [ again ] your comment:
> 
> "Many red flags went up with regards to this teacher during the previous year before we decided to take a closer look at their work in the classroom. Hardly a parent who spent any amount of time with this individual had anything nice to say. Some had flat out yelling contests in the hall with this teacher. My wife and I took the high road and wrote a couple of tactful letters and I had a polite conversation with this person to resolve last year's problem."
> 
> ...


Interesting thought. There has been mention of that. Unfortunately we have been told there is little effect that they would have on the decision to have a teacher removed unless it were to become public. We were told by a couple teachers, that we've been speaking to regularly, that airing the system's dirty laundry through the media might stir some to action. But as long the situation remains private it will be kept out of the board's hands. Even when a teacher is dismissed and it's announced that "the board fired" this person we were told this isn't entirely truthful because administrators would've made the decision beforehand. Just what we've been told.

EDIT: Moving our child into another grade 4 class within the same school was not an option - no other grade 4 class.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

*Update*

Teacher quit. :clap:

Offered no explanation other than "personal reasons".

Hollow victory since they were never required to produce documentation to us, the parents, that they had any guideline for what they were doing in class.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

So it might be that they were incompetent, it might be they had serious personal problems you'll never know about, it might be they were offered the chance to quit before being fired... 

Sadly, the replacement may never offer you a lesson plan, might be a worse teacher, or there may be a series of average teachers. Or, as we're all hoping, you get someone really good and all will be well.





MACenstein'sMonster said:


> Teacher quit. :clap:
> 
> Offered no explanation other than "personal reasons".
> 
> Hollow victory since they were never required to produce documentation to us, the parents, that they had any guideline for what they were doing in class.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> Teacher quit. :clap:
> 
> Offered no explanation other than "personal reasons".
> 
> Hollow victory since they were never required to produce documentation to us, the parents, that they had any guideline for what they were doing in class.


Interesting situation, but I agree with HowEver in that you may or may not get a teacher who will create any sort of individualized education plan. We shall see. Bon chance, mon ami.


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## MACenstein'sMonster (Aug 21, 2008)

HowEver said:


> So it might be that they were incompetent, it might be they had serious personal problems you'll never know about, it might be they were offered the chance to quit before being fired...
> 
> Sadly, the replacement may never offer you a lesson plan, might be a worse teacher, or there may be a series of average teachers. Or, as we're all hoping, you get someone really good and all will be well.


Yes, we'll never know for sure - reminds me of the movie "Doubt". But I'm leaning towards "quit or be fired" based on the growing evidence.

Now we press on. We talked to a couple other teachers in the system that we know and some say they are required to have detailed year plans to present their principals. 2 others say it wasn't required where they taught. Maybe we could have that change at our school.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

MACenstein'sMonster said:


> Yes, we'll never know for sure - reminds me of the movie "Doubt". But I'm leaning towards "quit or be fired" based on the growing evidence.
> 
> Now we press on. We talked to a couple other teachers in the system that we know and some say they are required to have detailed year plans to present their principals. 2 others say it wasn't required where they taught. Maybe we could have that change at our school.


Good luck, MM.


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