# Good Luck, Jean!



## Geoffrey (May 22, 2003)

Today is the last day of a great political era ... GOOD LUCK JEANNIE C!!! We'll Miss you.

Love,

me.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

The headline on the editorial in today's issue of the Edmonton Sun said it best:

Good riddance!

Cheers


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

To BAD RUBBISH!!









And I would also like to wish the old dictator "good luck".

He'll need it.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

I think Jean served Canada well and gave the majority of his life to public service for our country. I certainly would raise my glass to toast our parting PM.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm raising something right now to celebrate his passing.

Oddly enough, it's not a glass.


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## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

I for one, don't think Jean did SFA for Canada and am very happy to see him go.

His economic policies sucked, he ran a corrupt and self serving government, and he added nothing to Canada.

Good bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


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## ehMax (Feb 17, 2000)

That's ok... Jean could easily take you.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> His economic policies sucked, he ran a corrupt and self serving government, and he added nothing to Canada.


Now, now, save the Mulroney bashing for another thread.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Mulroney is not well thought of by most Canadians. This is indisputable.

But when he was charged by the RCMP for suspected corruption in the purchase of Airbus aircraft, he went to court and counter-sued the Canadian Government for damages. His party was out of power at the time, and he had no friends in Government to cover him. He did this on his own.

He won. 

The charges were dropped and he was awarded over fifty million dollars in damages as a result. Several high-ranking RCMP officials were fired as a result of this and the whole force took a considerable hit in public credibility.

Rightfully so.

As for Mulroney's most hated policies:

These would be the GST and and the Free Trade Agreement. Many Canadians were incensed by these policies and Jean Chretien's solemn promises to "tear up Free Trade" and "End the GST" were what got him elected in the first place.

Oddly enough, after a decade in power, Jean Chretien never even attempted to dismantle either of these "hated" policies. In fact he reinforced several areas of each....and was contemplateing RAISING the GST at one point.

I guess he liked them, after all....no matter what he told the sheep in order to get himself elected into a position of absolute power.  

And if you care to check the historical record, you will see that he also seemed to like a whole bunch of the policies of both the Tories and the Reform/Alliance...because he adopted many of them as if they were his own while abandoning the traditional policies of the Liberals.

All the time he was doing this, he was loudly proclaiming just the opposite, and ridiculing the parties and the people who had originated these ideas.

And while he was doing that, he was also busy stealing hundreds of millions of hard-earned tax dollars while we (well, while SOME of us) weren't looking.  

The man was a crook and a charlatan of the highest order. Most everything he did (outside of the policies that he stole from the Tories and Reform) were strictly self-serving and designed to keep him in power. No matter what it cost the Canadian people in the long run.

His refusal to revamp Health care in order to make it truly sustainable, offloading costs to the Provinces without any sort of consultation with them, letting the Canadian military wither away to nothing, and the massive deterioration of our relationship with our biggest trading partner are his dubious legacy to the people of Canada.

Let's not even talk about the Kyoto Accord, and what it will do to us if implemented. Or what it will do to the environment.

He has set us up for a big fall. On numerous fronts. Simultaneously. 

He is...by far...the very _WORST_ among our most reprehensible Prime Ministers in the history of this country.   

I spit on his very name.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Chretien did two things right.

Kept Paul Martin around

Convinced Charest to go to Quebec as head of the Liberal party.

Both of those I feel will benefit Canada greatly in the next 20 years and the alter likely tipped the scales on the independence movement - a narrow thing that was.

Beyond that, he was a canny politico who outlasted his foes, and stayed in power.

You might not clink a glass to hm but Machiavelli would


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Machiavelli is probably anxiously awaiting his arrival.  

No doubt he has an air conditioned room and a cool drink waiting for old King Jean when he shuffles off this mortal coil. They will probably compare notes in that very hot place while regaling each other with terrible tales of their time on earth.  

Hmmm....I can see it now....Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, Machiavelli, Chretien and the Marquis de Sade all sitting around a flaming poker table playing a big stakes game and swapping lies, for all eternity.

Hell will never be the same.

But the earth will be a much nicer place.


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## darntootin' (Nov 1, 2003)

Hmmm.... macnutt....

What was it you wanted that Chretien wouldn't let you have????


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

You have to understand that those most vocal in denouncing a 3 term majority leader are those who have failed miserably for 10 years to pin any major scandle on him...

Paul Martin is now PM because he convinced enough Liberals that it was "His Turn"... and his father didn't get his turn... Blah, blah, blah... 

I believe it "IS Paul Martin's Turn" and if he had been more patient, Jean would have retired at the last election...
Jean stayed just to p*ss off those who sought to replace him too early... I can respect that...

Paul Martin is about to call a snap election because his Prime Ministership will be a footnote if he doesn't win a general election. 

Even though this new conservative party is based on an outright lie, given too much time they should be able to form a reasonable alternative, if as some say... The masses are tired of one party rule...


And patronage... D'uh... it is politics, eh... and nothing comes close to the dieing days of Muldoon ...


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I just HAD to dredge up this old thread in light of the blistering new report that the Auditor General just released.

So here we sit, some months later....our enelected Prime Minister is busily sacking some of King Jean's worst cronies and the whole Federal Liberal Party is in serious damage control mode while the massive corruption from the Chretien era is revealed for all to see.

Paul Martin has just called for a Government Inquiry into what has been called "money laundering and outright theft of taxpayers money on a grand scale" by Sheila Fraser, Auditor General of Canada.

Some of the countries top political pundits are even saying that this could easily snowball into something that would sweep the Federal Liberals from power due to voter outrage. 

Hundreds of millions of our taxpayer dollars are missing and cannot be accounted for. And Jean Chretien's fingerprints are all over this.   

Welcome to the "Chretien Legacy".

Here's a link to just ONE of the scathing reports tabled by the Auditor Generals office today.

 Auditor General's Report


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I got an interesting telemarketing call the other night, it asked if I thought Paul Martin was a visionary, I had to laugh, Canada really needs a Prime Minister who won't leave a legacy of distruction... Kim Campbell, hahahahaha, I hate politics... It's like a Legalized form of organized crime, Now that's a mouthfull....


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Chretien may have masterminded the mess, but Martin denies any knowledge of it.

Yeah right, sure and "another purple cow flew by". He HAD to know as finance minister.

This is the first ***** in the Martin armor, and sadly it probably won't be the last. The only way to stop this abuse of tax dollars is to get the Liberals out of power.

But with the mind set of eastern voters, that too is unlikely.

Somehow you had to know it was all too good to be true.

Too bad as I actually was beginning to think Martin might be OK.

On the up side however, the one thing it does do is give Chretien the legacy he has sought for so long.

Cheers


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I didn't like Chretien, his slipperyness or the irresponsible way that he considered tax payers money (the gun registry, the HRDC boondoggle, the sponsorship rip-off) but he kept Canada out of the Iraq invasion. I hope he gets slammed for this mess but I will always respect him standing up to Bush.

Placing Chretien in the same room as fascist dictators is alway about as appropriate as nominating Bush and Blair for a Nobel Peace Prize.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Some hard facts for Conservatives:

1993 .... Mulroney's repeated scandals in his Cabinet damaged his reputation so badly that he left office with an approval rating of 10 percent, an all-time low in Canadian history. 

2003 ..... 46% of Canadian approve of Jean Chretien’s performance as prime minister. This is the lowest level since he became prime minister in 1993.

Now You Know


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

I never trusted Chretien from the moment he won the Liberal leadership. I would never vote for him or his party, not even strategically. I was not in the least surprised that he lied about the GST and free trade.

That being said, he was a far more clever politician than he was ever given credit for. Just ask Stockwell Day. Chretien played the dummy, the little guy from Shawinagan, while his Machiavellian brain was churning away in the background.

I don’t know whether he ever had any real beliefs, he didn’t keep us out of Iraq because he necessarily believed in it, but because he correctly read the political climate and was aware that it would have been a mistake. If he had sensed that the political climate would have been in favour of it, we would have been there. Chretien knew that idealism is something a politician can’t afford to have if he wants to stay in the game.

I won’t predict, but I would guess that none of the current mess will ever stick to him, if fact I would also guess that a lot of it will stick to Martin somehow, who isn’t nearly as clever as his predecessor. 

Mulroney was another oily character, I think in the end the stench coming off him was just too strong for most people to ignore. 

If Martin crashes and burns, what have we got to look forward to with the newly minted Regressive Conservatives? Harper - ranting ideologue and anti-Canadian sellout. Clement - don’t know the guy, but he was in there with Harris, not exactly a glowing recommendation. Stronach - a dilettante, without ideas, who would really just be the average single mum that she is trying to portray herself as, if her Daddy wasn’t loaded. But hey, if Ahnold could get elected, then anyone with the right image can.

We need to get proportional representation, right quick, so that whatever clown we happen to elect is less likely to be our sole dictator until the next writ is dropped.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

GratuitousApplesauce,

Canada hasn't dumbed down enough like the US (yet) to go for the Con-Alliance ticket.

But ...... If we swallow enough jingoistic US culture, a time may come when the right's ultimate ticket may arrive ....... 

Yentas and Yentlemen .... THE Canadian Idol ....

*Ben Mulroney!*


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm not sure how much heat Martin will actually take for this. He is, after all, working to deal with the massive corruption that was a very big part of the Chretien Liberals.

Even though I am considered a conservative, I honestly don't see anyone on the current horizon who seems better suited than Paul Martin for the PM's job. Let's hope he can clean up that party before the next election.

I WOULD like the inquiry to leave no stone unturned and to investigate this right back to it's ugly beginnings.

Judging from what I see on the news and hear on the street....Canadians are very upset about this and they are demanding some real answers.

And I hope that our former King Jean is finally exposed for the total crook that he is.  

There have been strong rumors for years about how truly corrupt the Chretien regime actually was. And about how they awarded fake contracts to people and then took kickbacks. Out of OUR money!  

Chretien may never actually go to jail, but I would like to see him eventually suffer from a public censure and I would REALLY like to see all of his offshore accounts emptied and the money returned to the Canadian people.

We shall have to see.


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## (( p g )) (Aug 17, 2002)

If Martin did in fact know about this on his watch, then he'd be not just dishonest, but a fool. The notion that a politically ambitious finance minister, one who had a clear eye on becoming Prime Minister since he was first sworn-in to Cabinet, would let this go down without blowing the whistle seems...unlikely. He would have known that this could be something that could bite him on the rear sometime in the future. That's just my gut feeling...but soon enough, we'll likely hear a very interesting story from Mr. Gagliano about all of this.


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## LGBaker (Apr 15, 2002)

GratuitousApplesauce wrote:


> We need to get proportional representation, right quick, so that whatever clown we happen to elect is less likely to be our sole dictator until the next writ is dropped.


Aha! A cynic after my own heart! Is there a plan to effect these changes? I have been waving my wand until blue in the face  and breathless. Nothing has changed.

I will always remember Chretien with a snarl on his face and his claw on a man's throat. No subtlety there.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

'*Out of OUR money!*"

How naive ...... try suggesting that to the CCRS! .....









Democracy (we) votes/Capital (Bronfman?) rules.

Get real.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

We certainly haven't seen or heard the last of this particular scandal.  

The reports coming out of Ottawa are saying that this is the worst case of corruption that has been seen in modern Canadian history. And it's just the tip of the iceberg for old King Jean.

There's more coming. LOTS more.  

In a perfect world, Chretien and his cronies would go to jail for this. The Federal Liberals would be turfed in the next election, as well, due to the completely justifiable voter outrage that should accompany the blatant theft of taxpayers money on this kind of scale.  

Will we ever see Chretien behind bars? Probably not.

But who knows...anything can hapen when the voters are THIS pi**ed off.   

Stay tuned. It should be an interesting ride.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Well this voter sure is pissed, Problem is, who do I vote for in the next election??? I mean democratic representation is only an Illusion. Government is just the popular method of control... The church used to be in control, but when the villagers wanted more, thus was born government.... Time fer some anarchy dudes!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Vinnie, I am getting so angry that I am seriously considering running for the NDP here in my riding. They usually put up a token candidate, since this is not NDP territory. Still, the ridings here are being reconfigured, and I would again be in the riding that includes Memorial University, with 16,000 students. "Mr.Smith Goes to Washington" is one of my all-time favorite movies..........but who knows, it might be followed by "Dr.G. Goes to Ottawa"? We shall see.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

haha!! Yup, I'm with ya G! See, when faced with the delemma of voting, I always vote Socalism-lite (NDP), Just because they SEEM to be a little more interested in in empowering their citizens.

Voting should not be a delemma (A situation that requires a choice between options that are or seem equally unfavorable or mutually exclusive.) It really is a privelage.... Unfortunatly... Ultimate power=CORRUPTION, but I know we all know this....


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

VC, we should start a movement and take Atlantic Canada by storm. The ehMacLand Party of Purity and Peaceful Passions, dedicated to honesty and fairness for all.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

what Canada needs is a visionary, a Steve Jobs if you will, not the dirty embezzling manager, that Paul Martin will be. I really think we need to rake this guy over the coals, Please, I beg of you all, pa-leese, don't vote for this shmuck, Vote "Current system not good enough"! Can Martin even be prosecuted or anything??? I want my tax dollars back!!!


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## NetMinder (Dec 15, 2003)

> Yeah right, sure and "another purple cow flew by". He HAD to know as finance minister.


How do you really know that. And even if he had some sense of what was happening, how much was he in a position to do anything about it. Take a hard look at how the cabinet and the PMO really works. The PMO unfortunatley has been running the show starting with how Trudeau evolved the PMO. Get real


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

The Finance Minister signs off on any major expenditure. He is acutely aware of any smallish expenditure as well. He is a part of the funding of ALL programs. Big and small. He has to budget for all of this stuff.

This is his JOB.

He watches the cashflow, just like any decent bookkeeper should. And he has a BIG staff to help him with this task.

Paul Martin is a pivotal member of the Federal Liberal Party. Has been for a very long time. He is in charge of the books. Has been for a very long time.

If he DIDN'T know about this...and was not in on the scam...then he is totally incompetent. He should resign in shame immediately and spare himself the indignity of an election that would leave him and his Party with a small minority. Or out of power, in total disgrace.

If he DID know about this...and we can hardly imagine that he didn't...then he shouldn't even THINK about calling an election. He should initiate a major investigation into Jean Chretien's corrupt term as Prime Minister immediately! ALL of Chretien's advisors and close political buddies should be investigated in depth.

This includes all of Chretien's cabinet. They HAD to be in on this.

Paul Martin should then resign, and turn over management of the country to a coalition of the Senate and the Provincial Premiers until we can ALL decide what shape our future Government will take.

It's the only way.

Perhaps we will all see the crooks go to jail, some of the money recovered AND we will actually get a real democracy in Canada. For the very first time since Confederation.

Some good could come out of this whole embarassing mess, after all.

Or...we could all just let it go...and let our country get badly screwed, again and again, by a bunch of corrupt politicians who won't even let us vote them out until THEY decide the "time is right". 

Gee...THAT sounds like a plan, eh?

If we don't take some serious action on this...right NOW.... then we are a bunch of idiots who deserve everything we get from these bastards!

Your choice.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

As a voter I would like to write Mr. Martin a letter asking him to back up his statements of late, anyone got an address??? I'd look for one but my lunch break is rather small.

Canadians are raking this guy (Martin..... hey, isnt a Martin part of the weasel family, hahahaha)over the coals as I had wished, stand up Canada and demand some hard answers!! that is what I like to see!! OK, so now we have to get his home or office address and FLOOD his inbox!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

VC, check out 
http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/default.asp

And if you send something via snail mail, you don't even need a stamp.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Here you go VC:

[email protected]

Cheers


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Tank you verly much!


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Always giving, never taking.

Cheers


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ah the simple world of Salt Spring Island where the grass is green, steaks are cheap from happy cows and the finances get counted out of the till at the close of each beautiful sunlit day,









"He is acutely aware of any smallish expenditure as well"

It appears you did not listen - Ministry of Finance is not a financial control body it's a policy organization for the enitre country.
Even Treasury which disperses the funding to the various organizations does not have a controller function tho Martin says that aspect needs to be strengthened further inlight of this situation which did not show up under an internal audit.

Do your homework

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fin-eng.html 

http://www.national-component.org/news/trb_e.html 

The PMO's office like the Executive in the US has garnered power and secrecy and one of the issues between Martin and Chretien was Martin's dislike of the "closed room" aspect of the PMO.
That has needed to be reigned in for years and this is the opportunity do so.
He has the opportunity to clean house thoroughly and I'm sure he's very aware that he will be judged on that being completed.

If that does NOT happen - then indeed vitriol needs to be flung.

The Finance Minister is NOT a bookkeeper


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Yep..the current Prime Minister, who is the man who was the former Finance Minister, and who was also a pivotal member of the Federal Liberal Party of Canada... had _absolutely NO knowledge_ of the widespread and rampant corruption in that Party that is now being exposed to the Canadian taxpayers.

Also...

He recently siezed total control of that Party by stuffing the liberal delegate roles with tens of thousands of brand new members...many of whom have since said that they didn't even know they were on the delegate list. And didn't even pay for the memberships that they didn't know they had!

Every new Liberal Party member got a Christmas card from Paul Martin as a token of thanks for joining "a winning team".

In Victoria BC...a golden retriever dog got a Christmas card from Paul Martin. It was in all the local papers.
Several dead people were also welcomed as new members of the Federal Liberal Party.

Vast numbers of these brand new members...who didn't even know they were listed as new members...are from the Indo-Canadian community here in BC. Their memberships were paid for by drug money by a few unscrupulous individuals from this community...who are now the subject of a major RCMP investigation.

THIS particular scandal is only in it's earliest stages. We have no idea how far it will go.

But "Elections Canada" calls it a flagrant abuse of the party system.

And this is how Paul Martin became the unelected Prime Minister of this country, and forced out the old crook who came before him.

So...sure...maybe Paul Martin was totally ignorant of the massive theft of taxpayers money in the Quebec sponsorship scandal. 

Even though he is probably the most prominent member of the Quebec wing of that Party.

He probably knew NOTHING about all of the other scandals, as well. Even the ones that seem to have hi-jacked the whole sordid mess and given him total control of it.
















Is THAT what you're trying to say, Macdoc?









I see your reality distortion field is still firmly in place, old buddy.









By the way...what colour is the sky out there in "Macdocland"? Do you guys have...like...cars and stuff? Or do you float around on lily pads making happy noises at each other? While carefully repeating the mantra "must vote Liberal..must vote Liberal..must vote Liberal"?
























[ February 17, 2004, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## jsimard (Oct 20, 2003)

Totally agree with you Vinnie.... All of them without to many exceptions are a bunch of "What's in it for me" types....  
The problem with governments and politicians is the poor memory of the electorate.... People forget and don't learn from past experiences... Thus we are doomed to edlessly repeat history re-electing the same scum bags over and over....
With the lattest $250M Scam... Every body forgets the Mulroney Airbus scam... So lets vote the PC's in now... Actually why not Mulroney himself...


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I will never forget Mulroney, yeesh, My whole 1980's childhood was bad music and horrible world leaders, I was sure the world was gonna end when I was 8, thanks for the Memories!!

Vive la Revelution

let the mis-spending of monies alloted to promote sovereignty bring canadians together, I know our Provincial boundries are hard to break, but come on, this government really sucks, .... Lotsa Money, Little action, Put yer (our) Money where yer big fat lyin mouth is!!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Vinne, one of my earliest memories was going around with my mother (I was all of 4) who was campaigning for Adlai Stevenson in the 1952 Presidential election. I was born a month before Harry Truman was elected in 1948, and grew up in the "serenity" of the Eisenhower years. I was a teenager during the JFK/LBJ years, and the rest, as they say, is history.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

I guess that there has always been ploitical scandal, and my frustration stems from the fact that we are feeding a system that just doesnt work, and no matter how hard we try to make it work, it wont, it is a flawed system. and then come the polititions with their promises, and like an episode of full house, we are all smiles and vote for the biggest gift basket, then when the governing party take their position, it's Bye Bye social programs, good bye art class, and the party in power is not held accountable..... They lie, and they are not held accountable... 

John Hamm here in NS had a red book with all his promises in it, and as he (supposedly) fulfilled them he would check them off or something.... He doesn't really talk about the book anymore. I had the un-pleasure of helping the PC party do their budget for the past campaign this summer, we ended up with a minority government, and boy am I glad, I have always thought a minority would work better.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Plausible deniability..... Paul Martin has denied he had knowledge of the sponsorship affair so the only remaining question is whether that's plausible. Methinks that in proving his case, he'll provide Jean Chretien with a legacy he'd never imagined.

Chretien has unwittingly already begun the repatriation of Martins reputation. The contrast in styles is jarring. "I don't know anything any more" together with his statement while still PM that the price of a few million being stolen was a price worth paying to beat separatism will sink him like a lead brick. Paul Martin only has to fluff up the personal animosity between Chretien and himself and the voting public will have a clear and present target to lambast - the hens are coming home to roost on Jean.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

In his original scenario, was Jean Chretien supposedly to retire about now? I often wondered why he chose to retire earlier than his Feb. date. Would I be wrong to think that there may be some connection???


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

The "Chretien Legacy" is something I have been harping on for a couple of years here at ehmac.

He will be remebered as the most crooked and most hated of all former Canadian leaders, once all the smoke clears. 

He may even go to jail. (we can only hope).

Nobody, no matter how slick they are, can possibly conduct so much criminal activity for so many years without leaving some sort of a trail of evidence. While he was still in power he maintained absolute control over pretty much everything...just like any good crime boss. Nobody "talked". Nobody dared to talk!

Once he left, the "iron fist" was gone...and the lid blew off.

Paul Martin is not about to allow this old crook to set him up for a giant fall like this while he happily walks away to count his stolen loot. Martin has been waiting for and wanting this job, for all of his adult life. Now he is watching the whole thing vanish before his very eyes.

Because of Chretien.

The other shoe is about to drop. And it won't be a pretty sight to watch....especially if you are a comitted Liberal supporter. It will be a battle royal between the massively corrupt "Old guard" and a newly enlightened (and severely penitent) "New guard" of Martinistas. 

Fingers will be pointed, and lackeys will be offered up as human sacrafice. Some of those lesser minions will counter the accusations by revealing personal diaries and possibly even physical evidence of Chretien's direct participation in all of this.

Sh*t wil be flying in all directions, and some of it is likely to stick to Paul Martin as well. It's pretty much inevitable, really.

The Inquiries will spawn new Inquiries as more and more evidence comes to light about how deep this is and how long it's been going on.

And sometime, during all of this, we Canadians will be asked to vote for a Party to lead this country.

I can't think of a worse scenario for the Federal Liberals.

Should be quite a ride.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I wouldn't get too excited macnutt. Ontario will probably still re-elect the Liberals..... We're either forgiving or naive (or both). When it comes down to it, we've seen Clement (who's as inspiring as cement) and we won't elect Harper because he's from the West. That leaves Belinda who has apparently struck a chord in Quebec. Maybe she's made some promises to some of the PR agencies there?

Until there's proportional representation, you're going to have to put up with Ontario mis-representation.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

> Belinda who has apparently struck a chord in Quebec. Maybe she's made some promises to some of the PR agencies there?


no. daddy is buying off old quebec pc hacks to the tune of $50K a pop.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Same thing macspectrum.... but cheaper.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

It is precisely BECAUSE of Ontario's naieve love affair with the Liberals that we still have this sort of corruption in our Canadian system. 

These parasites thought they could get away with pretty much _anything_ ! And they COULD...because all-powerful Ontario would just keep on electing them into office. Against the wishes of much of the rest of Canada.

Things are definitely changing now.

-One long time Ontario Liberal MP has just quit the Party and several more are poised to follow.

-The Liberals are currently experiencing the fastest drop in poll numbers that ANY Canadian political party has ever seen(other than during an election).

-A political science Professor at UBC has just gone on record as saying that he thinks that all five BC Federal Liberal seats will be lost in the upcoming election. This guy has been a Liberal cheerleader for a looong time, BTW.

-Judging by what we have been hearing out of Atlantic Canada, not too many Liberals will be getting the nod out there, either. I heard one lady caller tearing a piece off Paul Martin on sunday. She said "I'm your WORST nightmare! I have voted Liberal in every single election for the past thirty two years, but never again! I will vote for ANYONE but you!"

-Craig Oliver, CTV political reporter said "I have covered every major scandal since before Mulroney came to power. I've NEVER seen the Canadian people this upset. They want heads to roll."

The snowball is just starting to gain momentum. We haven't seen the half of it yet.

Stay tuned.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Current chaotic political sympathies aside and with Real Women denouncing Belinda as pro same-sex marriage and all three conservative runners as not pro-life, turnout from Liberal defectors will have to compensate for the "social" conservatives who are likely to stay out of the next elections in droves.
With a slim Harper leadership victory the right will return to being the party of alienation with enemies within the party both to the left and the right.

Once the nice weather sets in who will care?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Stuff is shaking out already. 

The first Liberal defection has already occurred today. Several more are coming.

Paul Martin is about to expose exactly WHO was behind all of this in order to salvage some scraps of his shattered dream of becoming an elected Prime Minister.

That means Chretien, and some of the central core of the Federal Liberal party will be targetted by Martin and his lot.

Chretien and his old cronies won't take this sitting down...they'll be firing back dirt at their accusers.

More defections. More outrage from Canadian voters. Plummeting polls.

Then will come an election. Perhaps even one that is forced upon an embattled Paul Martin way before he is ready.

Care to speculate on the results of that election?


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Unlike you macnutt, I am not an armchair speculator.

Alternative to "sky-is-falling" jingoism there is interesting and sober thought here. Ibbitson


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

_In Alberta, for example, Premier Ralph Klein's government was guilty of conduct easily as unseemly as that of the federal Liberal Party in Quebec. Mr. Klein's wife Colleen and members of his staff purchased shares in a company at below cost, even as the company was relying on the Alberta government to promote its interests abroad.


But the public sloughed off the 1996 Multi-Corp scandal and re-elected Mr. Klein again, and again. Albertans display none of the disgust for the province's Conservative Party that they feel for the federal Liberals, even though the Alberta Tories have been in power since 1971._

macnutt,
so why no witty comments about "King Ralph?" and no disgust about Klein's indiscretions?

Oh yeah, I forgot. Alberta is part of your "West" (AB and BC only dontch'a know)


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

The Liberals are going nowhere Macnutt. The simple reality is that as distasteful and disqusting as this scandal is, there is no alternative.

-Harper not electable any where in the east. Period!
-Clement, Clement?
-Boom Boom, (Belinda's nickname in high school) No substance, no platform, questionable inteligence and questionable motive.
-Jack Layton, sure, if he were Ed Broadbent.

Canadians are voicing there disgust through the polls. They will be hurt at the ballot box with a reduced majority. That's it.

Martin will get the people responsible and will enjoy doing it. He didn't kick almost every Cretienite out of cabinet for no reason. He knows what's been going on for years and has been plotting the downfall of these crooks since he re-entered politics.

It is finally his time, Canadians have wanted him all along, and in the end, I don't beleive he'll let them down. It's not in his nature.

If he doe's let us down, he'll still win. The alternative is to unknown and to distasteful.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Many agree that Martin is no prettier than Chretien.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Interesting....

One of our most vocal pro-Liberal anti-Conservative voices is sounding rather muted these days.   

Macello is actually saying "no one will care once the good weather gets here". 

Too funny.

The Liberals polls are falling almost as fast as the Conservatives are rising. The NDP has only gotten one single extra point out of all of this.

And there is FAR more of this to come. Plus an election.

Do I have ta draw a picture for ya?


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

Much too busy politically in meetings to destroy conservative careers.

Reading some of the more intelligent discussions here on the nature of polls leads me to believe that you have no idea of what a poll is.

Discussing a poll without quoting the questions posed is less than intelligent .... to put it nicely ....  

The press is raking it in although nothing will shake out until September .... yawn ....

[ February 18, 2004, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: macello ]


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

"The Liberals are going nowhere"

Truer words were never spoken! 









I watched Question Period in the House of Commons today and it was quite interesting. I especially liked the comment by Bill Blakie to Paul Martin after the latter pointed out that calls to Liberal Constituency offices by pi**ed off voters had dropped off to almost nothing in the last day or so.

Blakie noted, with some humor, that "sudden silence from your constituents can be much scarier than complaints during something like this".

Indeed it is.

What it means is that people have simply written off this batch of crooks and are turning their backs on them, en masse. They're no longer interested in complaining to them...they just want them OUT!  

The results of this will be seen when we are finally allowed to cast our votes in a Federal Election.

Which may happen sooner than anyone can imagine.


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## Brainstrained (Jan 15, 2002)

As I recently posted in another thread, it's easy to be against something when you don't have to be for something.

The Conservatives don't have a leader and don't have policies, what's to dislike?

Watch the Liberals get a bounce once the Conservatives pick a leader and make some policies.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

As everyone in the East knows, the Conservatives are just Alliance are just Reformers. No chance of a vote in Ontario or Quebec. No Matter how many times they change the name. Without a solid, proven, National Leader they go no where.
People in Ontario have learned very hard lessons voting for change just for the sake of change. There is just no proven Canadian that wants to lead that party. Why?
Wait for polls next week, if the Liberals continue to fall I may tend to soften my opinion. I don't think they will.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Petie...

Are you aware of the fact that Canadians don't actually select a leader when they vote in a Federal Election? They simply get the chance to vote for a local guy from their area, to sit in Parliament.

Are you also aware of how VERY close some of those Ontario elections actually were in the last two Federal Elections?

And THAT was when it really WAS Reform/Alliance!  

On Monday, Paul Martin appeared on TV for a short interview from one of those Ontario Liberal ridings. He hoped that the press would ask questions about that particular part of Ontario and how well the MP from that area was doing...but naturally all the questions were about the massive corruption scandal.

Are you aware that this particular Ontario seat was won by only _55 VOTES?_ 

Canadians have not turned out in very large numbers for Federal Elections during the past decade. The Liberals do NOT have nearly as big a majority as many people seem to think they do.

I'll bet you that this next Federal Election will have a rather large turnout.

Just a hunch.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Macnutt, I was born and raised in Ottawa. I am more aware of the inner workings of Canadian politics than you seem to think. I minored in Political Science and majored in Economics in Universtiy. I have attended no less than 6 leadership conventions.
I know precisely how we elect our governments.
I also know that in Canada Today, 35% popular vote elects a Majority Government.
As for your facts above, I suggest you review the actual election results in Ontario for yourself.
I have provided the links below. 

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSElection2000Results/final_ontario1.html
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSElection2000Results/final_ontario2.html
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSElection2000Results/final_ontario3.html
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSElection2000Results/final_ontario4.html


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

the flaw in macnutt's logic is that old CA plus old PC votes DO NOT EQUAL new C votes

if you add them up, they may make a change, but I seriously doubt that ALL the old PC and CA votes will go to the new C

Recent polls show that the NDP is not picking up support, but let's say Layton "magic" gets them 10 seats in Ontario big cities and say 10 more in Atlantic Canada.

so instead of 100 seats in Ontario, let's say that the Liberals only get 65
Let's say 1/2 in Quebec (even tho' the Bloc is running 10% above the Libs for now), so that is 40 seats or so. Quebec won't throw their votes at the Bloc.

Can the Libs pick up the extra 35 or so seats for a majority gov't across the nation?

Let's not forget that Martin won't call the election now since the only issue would be the current scandal. He'll wait for the report, fire some people, make some headlines. Oh, but wait, the Cs don't have a leader yet....


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Judging from the candidates for the leadership. The C's never will have a "Leader".


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

I am increasingly concerned for the alienated and socially backward folk with the fear of god in them who worked so hard to birth the Reform movement only to have it invaded by **** sympathizing leftists from the east.
Mulroney called the Alliance "Reform in pantyhose" and now he's brought in a divorcee who doesn't know the meaning of housework!
Things are truly chaotic when John Bryden, a Liberal until yesterday is better ideologically suited for the leadership of the alienated than the sorry lot up for grabs.

Martin's off to the west tomorrow ..... 









This should further split the east/west fracture and help to push the east further to the left..
If we could get more inciting comments from the macnutts out west about central Canada, another Liberal hegemony would be assured. 

Coupled with a press and talking heads that can't yet get through the noise, its all very surreal at this point.

The Martinites are a very disciplined lot.


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

While the CA didn't really come close to the number of votes that the Liberals won in Ontario, I do recall them having the greatest overall increase in votes nation wide.

However, it was still not enough to win the number of seats they were hoping they would.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Just humor them, PosterBoy.  

They still seem to think that the Federal Liberals are a viable party. That won't be rejected, in a huge way, by a totally disgusted Canadian electrorate.









I also have to wonder who will actually be leading that disgraced batch of criminals into the next election?

Since Paul Martin will have been forced to resign by that time.









He has publicly promised to resign if any evidence is found that he knew anything about the theft of hundreds of millions of dollars in the sponsorship program. (which is just ONE of the many corruption scandals that are currently assailing the Federal Liberals)

Today it was revealed that one of the key companies mentioned by name in the Auditor Generals report as having been a part of the whole scam was _STILL_ recieving millions of dollars, several weeks AFTER Paul Martin assumed his unelected position of total power.

This was AFTER the whistle had been blown. AFTER Paul Martin had begun firing major Liberal "celebrities" from their cabinet positions (probably because of their complicity in this massive corruption).

It was also AFTER the whole mess was common knowledge amongst everyone....except us poor taxpayers.

But tax money was still flowing into these bogus companies.

Suuurrre he didn't know! How could he? He was only the Finance Minister, and then a little later, the absolute leader of this pack of theives.  

What a crock.


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## arminarm (Jan 12, 2002)

The flu season is just about over for the year. This year's outbreak failed to reach the epidemic proportions predicted by the overheated media coverage. 

Is macnutt flaming out?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

See, I'm not exactly on your side with this Macnutt, the CA did have the greatest overall increase in votes but that really doesn't mean much when in Ontario the margin from the winner to second place is often thousands (and thousands) of votes.

Personally I used to vote PC, but now I have no idea. At least I have some time to decide.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Several of the Ontario seats were much closer than that. More like in the hundreds.

Wonder how all of this recently exposed criminal activity by the Federal Liberals might affect the upcoming vote?

You don't suppose it might cause a very slight negative impact on voter preferences, do you? 









And it's only going to get worse as the Inquiry exposes more and more dirty dealings.

Watch and see.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Just heard a rumor, from someone who knows about these things, and she said that the Federal Liberals internal polling results show a projected loss of sixty seats...or MORE...in the next election.

And the really BAD stuff hasn't even come to light yet.  

Scary,eh?


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I see you are still relying on rumours and innuendo. That's what's scary.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

No Jim...just a little ahead of the bell curve. Or so it would seem, if you care to read back on this thread a bit.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

No MacNutt, there is a difference between evidence and speculation. You relied on speculation. You'd make a lousy lawyer, stick to your day job.


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## K_OS (Dec 13, 2002)

used to be jwoodget said:


> I see you are still relying on rumours and innuendo. That's what's scary.


I say the scary part is that he took a whole year to come up with a reply.

Laterz


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

"The wheels of justice grind slowly"................and for good reason.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

MacNutt said:


> No Jim...just a little ahead of the bell curve. Or so it would seem, if you care to read back on this thread a bit.


i read back far enough to recall macnutt predicting a CON majority last time out
OR
was that a prediction for this election coming soon?


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

used to be jwoodget said:


> No MacNutt, there is a difference between evidence and speculation. You relied on speculation. *You'd make a lousy lawyer, stick to your day job.*



all depends on whose side you were on
 

i'd pay good money to have macnutt as legal counsel for the CONs


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Liberal corruption and especially the fact that Jean Chretien was terribly corrupt are now a known reality. An indisputeable fact. We just don't know the full extent of it yet. But it looks BIG.

Odd that I have been so committed to this for so very long, eh? Especially when I was being roundly dissed and dumped on about it. By EVERYONE. Almost on a daily basis.

Gosh...you'd almost think I had some inside info. Wouldn't you?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Or...was it just a wild-assed guess? One that I never ever gave up on? Even though I was often the butt of much ridicule around here because of this.

Think about it.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Sudden silence. From the same people who were so terribly outspoken just a few months back. And on the same subject too.

Interesting.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

MacNutt said:


> I'm not sure how much heat Martin will actually take for this. He is, after all, working to deal with the massive corruption that was a very big part of the Chretien Liberals.
> 
> Even though I am considered a conservative, I honestly don't see anyone on the current horizon who seems better suited than Paul Martin for the PM's job. Let's hope he can clean up that party before the next election.
> 
> I WOULD like the inquiry to leave no stone unturned and to investigate this right back to it's ugly beginnings.


Here it is from post #21 of this thread, February 11th, 2004, MacNutt’s unbridled support for Martin. What happened? His informants are now telling him that Martin is just as guilty as he claims Chretien is. But where, oh where, is his information?


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

It's worth noting that when MacNutt wrote that, Harper had been leader of the Alliance/Conservatives for nearly two years.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

PB, one wonders the fate of Stephen Harper if Macnutt's predicition of a "sure thing victory" does not actually happen, given the nature of our democratic system to actually cast a vote rather than accept the Macnutt Line of Thinking? I am not sure Harper would want to stay on as leader. We shall see.


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Vinnie Cappuccino said:


> It's like a Legalized form of organized crime


 haha, one of my favorite Personal Quotes! haha


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

VC, how soon until I am able to get an autographed copy of "The Quotable VC" to place beside my "Quotations from Chairman Macnutt"?


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## Vinnie Cappuccino (Aug 20, 2003)

Some people should not be quoted... I am one of those people, as I grow and learn my Ideas develop and refine themselves. MacNutt is another that should not be quoted, Reasons unknown!


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

From "The Quotations of VC" -- When asked about how his intellect has evolved over time, he was quoted as saying, "As I grow and learn, my ideas develop and refine themselves."

This is interesting. More VC, more. Something about education, the environment and public parks, SVP.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

That quote is indeed mine. I had some hope for him back then. As did many of the rest of us. It was also written in the first blush of relief as jean Chretien was being deposed by Martin. Anything would have been better than Jean.

Today, though, we all know that Paul Martin was very well informed about the criminal activity that was going on all around him in the Liberal party. This has become even more evident as the Gormery Inquiry has gone on.

I don't think that the uber-rich Martin ever had any need to actually participate in the Big Skim himself. He already has more money than god. But he certainly knew about it. No question of that now.

We have also discovered that Paul Martin is not much of a leader since I first wrote those paragraphs. Even macdoc who was always an ardent supporter of Martin has publicly admitted this.

So...it's now time for a change.

Looks like that change is coming too.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

MacNutt said:


> Today, though, we all know that Paul Martin was very well informed about the criminal activity that was going on all around him in the Liberal party.


And how do we all know this? C'mon MacNutt, do you know something that Gomery or anyone in the press doesn't yet know. Geez if this is nothing more than a fantasy, show the evidence, then maybe even your friend Harpo might get his majority.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Ummm...let's see now...Paul Martin was seen and overheard having lunchtime meetings with key players in the sponsorship scandal. He was overheard discussing the sponsorship program with these key players (who are now on trial, BTW).

He was the Finance Minister who signed off on all of that stolen money. One might also suspect that, as Finance Minister, he might have wanted to look at the books (which was his job, after all) and MIGHT have noticed all of that missing money. Or even been a little amused by some of the bogus reciepts that had been submitted by people who had done no work in fictitious places. I'm thinking Olympic stadiums in Rimouski, here. (arf arf arf)

He was the senior Liberal in the Quebec wing of the Liberal party. The Quebec wing of the party is where almost all of the corruption came from.

And finally, and most tellingly...the very FIRST thing he did after deposing King Jean was to shut down the Sonsorship Program. That happened on his first day in power.

Gee...think he may have _KNOWN_??


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Like I said, do you actually *know* something, besides mere speculation? You did after all say "we all know". We're all waiting to hear it.

Cheers.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I'm not sure how bad it will actually have to get before all of this actually penetrates your carefully constructed ideological shell GA. 

And...I find it rather perplexing that you still seem to be in total denial about the whole Liberal mess. Not sure why, either. Especially since you don't seem to be a major Liberal supporter.

Tell you what...

Walk up to any of your fellow Canadian citizens and ask them the following two questions:

1)-" _Do you think that Jean Chretien was actually corrupt...or is he just being set up?_ "

2)- "_Do you think that Paul Martin REALLY didn't know a damn thing about all of this corruption that was going on all around him?"_

The answers to these questions might just enlighten you to the mood of the nation right now. And might just help to explain to you why the Liberals are on the way out and the Conservatives are on the way in.

Later on, we'll work on the reasons that the BC NDP is NOT going to surge back to power in the upcoming BC Provincial election.

One thing at a time, old buddy. No doubt that this is a hard road for you.

I feel your pain. Honest.


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

As usual Mr. MacNutt, you can’t seem to answer a simple question. Dancing around it and making up cute one-liner’s doesn’t really do the trick. Whether the average Canadian or someone like you *thinks they know* something and whether *they actually know* something are two entirely different things. I would think that you’re bright enough to understand the difference.

You threw it off in a previous post, as if it was fact, that “*we all know* that Paul Martin was very well informed about the criminal activity that was going on all around him in the Liberal party”.

So, I’ll ask you once more, do you actually *know* something, besides mere speculation? If you have some evidence on Martin, let’s see it.

As for me being in denial, you would be wrong again. As I said a year ago, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that Chretien is involved. And if he is, pack him off to jail. My gut feeling about him has always been that he’s slimy. I also think he’s a very clever man, possibly too clever to get caught, if it turn’s out that he’s involved. I also suspect that Martin could be his fall guy. But the difference here is that I’m putting this all out as speculation, not claiming it as a god-given fact like you insist on doing.

And as far as me having a “carefully constructed ideological shell”, don’t make me laugh. Look in the mirror my little friend. One sure mark of an ideologue is the need to twist and bend the truth to support their dogma. Something you appear to excel at.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

I don't think the standard of care for voters judging politicians should be "beyond a reasonable doubt". I think circumstantial evidence is sometimes enough.

In the case of Chretien, I am pretty much at the point of judging him as being guilty (by association) in the Sponsorship Scandal. I don't have evidence to link him directly to it, but I would be very surprised if he wasn't involved.

As far as Martin goes, I'm not sure that he is guilty (yet). But, when you connect the dots, it starts to point in his direction as well. The claim that he didn't know about this slush fund is starting to be very difficult to believe. It's sad.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I think Chretien was an arrogant politician who made both good and bad decisions. He should definitely take responsibility for the sponsorship scandal, even if he did not personally gain from it.

Martin is currently only guilty of naivity in expecting the Canadian people to not tar him with the same brush. I feel sorry for the guy as I think he's a genuine statesman and we don't seem to be overflowing with those......


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## GratuitousApplesauce (Jan 29, 2004)

Vandave said:


> I don't think the standard of care for voters judging politicians should be "beyond a reasonable doubt". I think circumstantial evidence is sometimes enough.


That may be correct, Dave. But I also think that pushing an agenda by making statements not supported by fact, as MacNutt does, is not the ideal way for us to decide about important issues.

Some members of the Liberal party have been no doubt guilty of abusing power and some of fraud and theft. I think that any government that can garner the kind of dictatorial power that our electoral system affords and then manage a strategy that keeps them in power is bound to fall prey to these type of excesses. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The degenerate power whores that exist in all political organizations rise to the top, like scum, in this kind of scenario and start to get arrogant and sloppy.

If it had been Conservatives as the government for more than a decade with the same kind of lock on power, I am certain there would be similar episodes. It was starting to show up with Mulroney's Tories after only a few years. I would say that the bulk of Liberals and Conservatives are horrified by this type of thing. To make statements saying that all Liberals are corrupt based on exaggerated assumptions is what I find offensive.

This was discussed to death in another thread. I know MacNutt desperately wants to see a Conservative government in power, and he may get his wish. To imply that all Conservatives are morally superior to all Liberals or anyone else is just crap. To imply that things like this could not happen with the Cons in power is also just crap. 

We, the citizens, need to take democratic control back from the degenerate power whores no matter what party is in power and have an electoral system in place where no one can gain the kind of dictatorial lock on power that the Liberals had for so long. I don't think that just "throwing the bums out" is anything more than a band-aid solution.


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## Vandave (Feb 26, 2005)

GratuitousApplesauce said:


> To imply that all Conservatives are morally superior to all Liberals or anyone else is just crap. To imply that things like this could not happen with the Cons in power is also just crap.


I agree that no party is immune from corruption and I agree that Mulroney's government had its share as well. As I discussed in previous thread, I think Patronage is a major form of corruption and Mulroney's government was worse than the Liberals in this regard.

I don't agree with you that the Conservatives can't take the high ground on this issue at present. The old Reform Party was the biggest critic of this type of corruption in our system. The new Conservatives want to strengthen the role of the Auditor General. I have high expectations that a Conservative government would clean up a lot of this garbage. It has to be done before it rots our country from the inside out.

A big step to removing the dictatorial power of the PM would be to have an elected senate. The Conservatives are the only party that are pushing this issue.

JWoodjet, did you hear the latest from Kinsella? The links to Martin keep getting stronger.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Hi Vandave, I've not heard anything that suggests Martin was aware of the gross negligence and subterfuge going on in the sponsorship program and vertainly nothing that inducated he was in any way complicit. Kinsella is a Chretien jock and there is certainly no love lost between him and Martin. Makes me wonder whether Chretien held on to power for an extra couple of years to try to "grass over" the graves.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Jim, "grass over the graves"? This does not sound like you and your typically rational comments. It is a possible speculation, but one would need proof.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Unlike Martin, I do think that Jean Chretien knew of at least some of the deeds that were being done in the name of the sponsorship program. I don't believe he gained personally from it (or ever intended to) and he still justifies the program based on the need to keep the country together (the irony, the irony). But I think he may well have tried to cover up the programs outrages to preserve his legacy. Yes, speculation. I am certainly reserving judgement until the Gomery report is published but there are many others that seem to think they have heard enough (despite it being a public enquiry which generates uncontested testimony). 

I see Martin is addressing the nation tomorrow. I'll be in California talking to the stem cell guys.......


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## PosterBoy (Jan 22, 2002)

utbjw said:


> many others that seem to think they have heard enough (despite it being a public enquiry which generates uncontested testimony).


This gets my goat, also. They're quick to point out that the Liberals are liars, but then take all testimony at face value. Seems like a double standard to me.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

The Prime Minister's Office said he will speak about the sponsorship program and the current situation in Parliament at 7:45 p.m. ET.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

There is quite a discussion going on about what Paul Martin will say to the Nation on thursday night. It's going on here; 

http://www.ehmac.ca/showthread.php?t=25696&page=7

And, I must say...it's heartwarming to see that even some of the most ardent Liberal supporters are now in the early stages of grudging admittance that Jean Chretien "MIGHT" have been in on a little tiny bit of corruption. And That Paul Martin "MIGHT" have known about some small parts of it. Somehow.

There is obviously quite a ways to go. But it's at least a step in the right direction. 

The events of the coming months will be very illuminating. For all of us. Some more than others.

Trust me on this.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Well...the "Big Speech" turned out to be nothing more than a wail for mercy.

And a solemn promise by Paul Martin to call an election sometime late this year or early next year. Too funny. 

The sound of a desperate man trying to bluff and bluster and buy time to deal with all of his cascading scandals. Good luck on THAT.

Elections a'comin. Soon.

Count on it.


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