# Alberta's Crime Rate Shoots Up 15% In Five Years



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

“Between 2000 and 2005, CISA said *homicides increased by 70%, attempted murder by 47%, aggravated assault by 41%,* motor vehicle theft by 31% and assault with a weapon by 30%.”

Emphasis mine.

I have been predicting this for some time now and it _will_ spread right across the country if we let it. Keep in mind it does not include last year or this year and by what I have observed in that time, I believe it has worsened:

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Alberta/2007/07/23/4361054-sun.html


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

....and this says _what_ about the justice policies of conservative governments?


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

Not sure if you've seen this but this site make some interesting observations:

Violent Crime Statistics - Canada


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## imactheknife (Aug 7, 2003)

My dad had a whole bunch of stuff in a barn on a farm he bought in Oct 2005. I lived there until we moved back to Ontario. It has been broken into 2 times and they gutted the place of his tractors and a whole whack of stuff when he was on holidays....the Police couldn't care less he said when he phoned them. This is just west of Red Deer..


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

CubaMark said:


> ....and this says _what_ about the justice policies of conservative governments?


Well CM, since these are all stats on criminal code offenses, or federal crimes, it says zero about Conservative governments. The stats were all gathered on the federal Liberal government's watch.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Well CM, since these are all stats on criminal code offenses, or federal crimes, it says zero about Conservative governments. The stats were all gathered on the federal Liberal government's watch.


let's not forget how ralph (is it my round klein) let the oil barons rape the social programs in AB
and you see how the lack of a provincial sales tax helps society eh?

interesting how Finald can have a reserve fund of hundreds of million and AB's heritage fund is in the tens of millions


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> let's not forget how ralph (is it my round klein) let the oil barons rape the social programs in AB
> and you see how the lack of a provincial sales tax helps society eh?
> 
> interesting how Finald can have a reserve fund of hundreds of million and AB's heritage fund is in the tens of millions


Sorry Michael, but that won't cut it.

Finald? What the heck is Finald?

These stats have zero to do with the province in terms of legislation. And no oil baron raped anyone here in recent memory. Same old tired fiddle playing on your part. 

Again. 

Ralph's gone. Get used to it.

And for the record, our heritage fund is in the "Billions". Sheesh, you couldn't even get that right. 

"The Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund reached the highest reported fair value in its 31-year history, standing at $16.6 billion at March 31, 2007. Over the 2006-07 fiscal year, the Fund grew by $1.8 billion, due largely to contributions from the 2006-07 surplus and inflation-proofing."

http://www.finance.gov.ab.ca/business/ahstf/


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Seems like a pattern is developing:


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MannyP Design said:


> Seems like a pattern is developing:


It sure is and it will go the opposite way it has been going.

Watch it happen.

If a 70% increase in attempted murders in Alberta alone does not disturb you, nothing will.


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## MasterBlaster (Jan 12, 2003)

.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

SINC said:


> It sure is and it will go the opposite way it has been going.
> 
> Watch it happen.
> 
> If a 70% increase in attempted murders in Alberta alone does not disturb you, nothing will.


So, what, you presume that I show a direct correlation between crime and population increase you that assume I'm not disturbed by murder? That's a bit of a stretch.

Alberta has shown a 10.6 % increase in population (twice the national average) over the last five or six years. That's a lot of people to accommodate in a relatively short time and I'm sure public services are stretched pretty thin.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MannyP Design said:


> So, what, you presume that I show a direct correlation between crime and population increase you that assume I'm not disturbed by murder? That's a bit of a stretch.
> 
> Alberta has shown a 10.6 % increase in population (twice the national average) over the last five or six years. That's a lot of people to accommodate in a relatively short time and I'm sure public services are stretched pretty thin.


Not at all. What I am saying that everyone is missing, is that there are more murders and attempted murders every year and it will continue to be so with the gang and drug culture.

Population increase has nothing to do with it and means nothing to those who are dying in the streets. Just because the population increases 10% does not in any way offset the fact that there are more dead people from handguns every single year.

That is what should be alarming, not stats per 100,000. Society is changing and too many just brush it off on increased population stats.

The real truth is that there are far too many young hoodlums packing handguns and think they are playing a video game. Death is very real, especially for 11 year old kids caught in the cross fire.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

CubaMark said:


> ....and this says _what_ about the justice policies of conservative governments?


After you get the knee checked, look into Manitoba and Saskatchewan.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Beej said:


> After you get the knee checked, look into Manitoba and Saskatchewan.


gee, have both MB and SK had 36 (and counting) continuous years of Con rule, not to mention 14+ years of Ralphie (hiccup) Klein at the healm?

I wonder if drinking and driving a province is a criminal offence?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Think about it a little more 'spec. I'll even help you get started:

If Manitoba and Saskatchewan also have increasing...


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Beej said:


> Think about it a little more 'spec. I'll even help you get started:
> 
> If Manitoba and Saskatchewan also have increasing...


do they have the same increase as AB?
do they have the billions of extra dollars that could have been spent on social programs to help prevent crime a la "heritage fund?"

better go have some coffee and get back to me


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

You're still having trouble with your knee, 'spec. Try thinking instead of looking down there for advice.

Going by one measure -- homicide rate -- Alberta's has increased less since 2001 and, as of 2005, was still lower relative to MB and SK. 

Unfortunately, this is quite a complex matter so your knee will give you much trouble if you try to think your way through it. You seem to have tried to simplify that matter as per Fox doctrine by simply being a hack. Good job.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> gee, have both MB and SK had 36 (and counting) continuous years of Con rule,  not to mention 14+ years of Ralphie (hiccup) Klein at the healm?
> 
> I wonder if drinking and driving a province is a criminal offence?


Totally uninformed as usual:

Manitoba has not had a Conservative government since 1999:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manitoba_general_elections

Saskatchewan has not had a Conservative government since 1991:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Saskatchewan_general_elections


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

Aside from the hack, for those interested, the Prairies homicide rates:

Man. 
1990 3.53 
1995 2.39 
2000 2.61 
2005 4.16 

Sask. 
1990 3.57 
1995 2.07 
2000 2.58 
2005 4.33 

Alta. 
1990 2.91
1995 2.19
2000 1.96
2005 3.35

I pieced together two separate StatsCan sources, with the break being between 2003 and 2004, but they should be quite close (I think the underlying population data was revised).

[Edit: Trouble getting the spacing to work. Sorry. Less data used to clean it up.]


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

now, how about factoring in AB's enormous wealth which should allow them to spend more on social programs and thereby reduce crime

both MB and SK are "have not" provinces

but i guess BJ and SINC believe that everyone should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, right, err correct?

and while we're at it, let's dismantle socialized medicine in Canada, something AB has been at the forefront of


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Totally uninformed as usual:
> 
> Manitoba has not had a Conservative government since 1999:
> 
> ...



interesting how ABers and con-artists complain about the Liberals having been the "natural ruling party" yet see no problem with 36 (and counting) straight years of con rule in their own province

"Don't mind that man behind the curtain" comes to mind

we in ontario haven't had a con gov't for years either and are still undoing the evil brought upon us by Mike (kill all those &%[email protected] Indians) Harris and his (lack of) common sense revolution


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> interesting how ABers and con-artists complain about the Liberals having been the "natural ruling party" yet see no problem with 36 (and counting) straight years of con rule in their own province


Gee, congrats, you got that part right. 

Well, all except for the ABers thing. It's Albertans, not Alberters.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Gee, congrats, you got that part right.
> 
> Well, all except for the ABers thing. It's Albertans, not Alberters.


and it's Ukraine, not "the Ukraine"
but I'm sure you don't really care
after all, they're only "immigrants" with funny sounding last names

by the way, 36+ years of the same party ruling your province isn't something to be proud of


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> now, how about factoring in AB's enormous wealth which should allow them to spend more on social programs and thereby reduce crime
> 
> both MB and SK are "have not" provinces
> 
> ...


Wow, now you're completely off the rails 'spec. Get some rest. 

The knee-jerk started (after being given a hint to think about based on a reply to a previous knee) but was quickly dismissed by the data. Then the knee-jerk switches to a hypothetical beautiful world and how Alberta should spend its money the way 'spec wants it to and 'spec gets to imagine the social results (something about clairvoyance? Nah, 'spec would never be a hypocrite). Next comes the attack on the messenger and trying to fabricate their opinion (Hmm...maybe 'spec is a hypocrite). Then the final closer on the topic of medicare. 

'Spec, a 'spectacular rant worthy of a Fox hack. Baseless hackery, imagined successes (Mission Accomplished!), attack when demonstrated to be baseless, shift the topic. Foxy.

Thanks for my morning laugh.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

Beej said:


> Wow, now you're completely off the rails 'spec. Get some rest.
> 
> The knee-jerk started (after being given a hint to think about based on a reply to a previous knee) but was quickly dismissed by the data. Then the knee-jerk switches to a hypothetical beautiful world and how Alberta should spend its money the way 'spec wants it to and 'spec gets to imagine the results (something about clairvoyance? Nah, 'spec would never be a hypocrite). Next comes the attack on the messenger and trying to fabricate their opinion (Hmm...maybe 'spec is a hypocrite). Then the final closer on the topic of medicare.
> 
> ...


and you, an allegedly university educated person, (just which university was that again?) don't see that AB with it's billions and have a crime rate similar to long time "have not" provinces like MB and SK just ain't kosher shows you really are a neo con

just keep on drinking the kool aid and pretending that you're a visionary


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> by the way, 36+ years of the same party ruling your province isn't something to be proud of


And that would be because?


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> and you, an allegedly university educated person, (just which university was that again?) don't see that AB with it's billions and have a crime rate similar to long time "have not" provinces like MB and SK just ain't kosher shows you really are a neo con
> 
> just keep on drinking the kool aid and pretending that you're a visionary


Now the swiftboating (questioning credentials) and flinging of "The Label"; seems to me you are more in the spirit of neocons. 'Spectacular hypocrisy.

I have said before that I think Klein squandered the last years of his leadership, so things probably could have been done better (including much more savings in the Heritage Fund). Translating that into quick gains in violent crime is extremely difficult. Note that AB's homicide rate was significantly lower in 2000 than in 1990 (I think that goes for Canada, in general). 

But, what you failed to see -- due to blind Fox hackery -- is that there is a problem across the Prairie provinces, with similar trends (at different levels) over about 15 years,including a recent and significant increase. And, as SK was getting richer than MB, there does not seem to be divergence, going by just the one measure. Other measures would have to be looked at, including different age demographics, and lots of other things, but the Fox treatment you use does not work.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> And that would be because?


even lemming aren't that blind


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> even lemming aren't that blind


You're not having a very good day "Spec when you can't even get the lemming thing right. :lmao: 

They don't follow each other committing suicide you know:

Myths and Misconceptions
Misconceptions about lemmings go back many centuries. In the 1530s, the geographer Zeigler of Strasbourg proposed the theory that the creatures fell out of the sky during stormy weather, and then died suddenly when the grass grew in spring.[4] This was argued against, successfully, by the natural historian Ole Worm, who provided one of the first published dissections of a lemming. In his investigation, Worm showed that a lemming contained anatomy similar to most other rodents.[5]
While many people believe that lemmings commit mass suicide when they migrate, this is not actually the case. Lemmings will often migrate in large groups and as a result some lemmings will occasionally be pushed off cliffs or drowned in bodies of water simply by the press of their compatriots, or by the dimension of the body of water. The myth of lemming mass suicide is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors. It is usually stated that the main source of the belief in the suicide myth was propagated by The Walt Disney Company documentary White Wilderness which includes footage of lemmings running head-long over a ledge. The filmmakers contrived this scene by forcing a number of lemmings off a cliff.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

I lived in Calgary from 76 - 81, it was a great place.

Everyone knows why the violent crime rate is up so high, no one will actually talk about or address the real problem head on. So you get what you get, it's the same down here as well. Same everywhere I suspect.


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> Think about it a little more 'spec. I'll even help you get started:
> 
> If Manitoba and Saskatchewan also have increasing...


If one is to believe that article that SINC linked to the answer is there:


> Alberta's robust economy *has left the poor poorer* and caused the serious crime rate to shoot up 15% in five years, according to a report from a law enforcement think-tank.


The disparity between the rich and poor....
Now MS has so much material to choose from
1- It's looking more like the US
2- No social net 
3- Conservative policies...
4- Tent city in Edmonton


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> You're not having a very good day "Spec when you can't even get the lemming thing right. :lmao:
> 
> They don't follow each other committing suicide you know:
> 
> ...


using "lemming" as a metaphor for "those that follow blindly" has been accepted for quite a few years
I'm quite sure the lemmings don't mind, but they can feel free to call or email me to voice their concern

now if I can only get a certain Albertan to stop using "the Ukraine" and stop offending the approximately 1.2 million Canadians of Ukrainian heritage


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> If one is to believe that article that SINC linked to the answer is there:
> 
> The disparity between the rich and poor....
> Now MS has so much material to choose from
> ...


and you believe 1 thru 4 are bad things?
you can't make peace and profit without breaking a few heads


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> If one is to believe that article that SINC linked to the answer is there:
> 
> The disparity between the rich and poor....
> Now MS has so much material to choose from
> ...



I could raise some concerns in regard to Quebec, but I won't bother.

It might aggravate residents there, so unlike those who continue to criticize my province, I will simply make no rebuttal, in spite of the constant razzing we Albertans in general get from some residents of ON and PQ.

Have a nice evening boys.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

SINC said:


> Oh my, back from vacation and no wiser.
> 
> I could raise some concerns in regard to Quebec, but I won't bother.
> 
> ...



36+ years of Albertans voting in the same provincial party begs the "lemming" analogy


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

AS, there's the still the problem of the MB and SK data, for homicide rates at least. Also the drop in homicide rates up to about 2000, despite "conservative" policies.

Rapid economic growth can and is creating stresses in Alberta; Saskatchewan is doing quite well too, but Manitoba? If one factor is "conservative" policies, what are the others? One factor can be "ndp" policies for other provinces, yet I don't see the hackful generalisations. Good. Such generalisations would not offer any insight. 

The mindless hackery is, I think you can see, sad even if your politics leans towards similar conclusions. Neither of us is particularly impressed with social conservatism. But, as amusing as you may find 'spec to watch, I find it hard to believe that you are similarly challenged. Homer is fun to watch, but being that challenged in real life would be sad.

Something is happening, including the possibility of just some temporary activity, particularly for SK and MB with their smaller populations. It is worth exploring if it's just regional or something else. Non-homcide data should also be looked at. It could very well be, with a closer look, just an Alberta thing, or the start of regional or national trend, or something else entirely. Interested in helping find out? 

Regardless, the hack will just continue with its terribly insightful declarations as per Fox guidelines.


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

MACSPECTRUM said:


> 36+ years of Albertans voting in the same provincial party begs the "lemming" analogy


Geez 'Spec, apparently you did not read my post the last time about lemmings. Here it is again. Now read carefully this time:



SINC said:


> You're not having a very good day "Spec when you can't even get the lemming thing right. :lmao:
> 
> They don't follow each other committing suicide you know:
> 
> ...


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

SINC said:


> It might aggravate residents there, so unlike those who continue to criticize my province, I will simply make no rebuttal, in spite of the constant razzing we Albertans in general get from some residents of ON and PQ.


SINC, may I remind you that you started this thread with regards to the crime rate.
The article you cite tells of the disparity between the rich and the poor as a cause of that increase....


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> Aside from the hack, for those interested, the Prairies homicide rates:
> 
> Man.
> 1990 3.53
> ...


Thanks for those.
Someone had mentioned crime due to poverty and reflected in the indigenous population. The year 2005 marks the upswing...


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

If you like, I can PM you some annual data that I tried to post, but removed because I did not know how to get it formatted nicely (Note: I would have to find it again and I am lazy  ). MB and SK had an upswing around 1999/2000, with AB's being more recent.

Given the Prairie's demographics, population shares and trends related to 15-24 year old males could be relevant and, as you mentioned, the poverty in the "indigenous population". But did anything change around 2000?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Beej said:


> If you like, I can PM you some annual data that I tried to post, but removed because I did not know how to get it formatted nicely (Note: I would have to find it again and I am lazy  ). MB and SK had an upswing around 1999/2000, with AB's being more recent.
> 
> Given the Prairie's demographics, population shares and trends related to 15-24 year old males could be relevant and, as you mentioned, the poverty in the "indigenous population". But did anything change around 2000?


Thanks for the offer.
I'm rather certain that the Prairies are not awash in crime and that this bump is explainable...


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

> I'm rather certain that the Prairies are not awash in crime...


Well they're awash in something.... 



> Manitoba has Canada's second-highest crime rate, Statistics Canada said on Wednesday, putting it behind only Saskatchewan.
> 
> But the province's justice minister, Dave Chomiak, says the new figures from 2006 show overall crime in Manitoba has actually dropped one per cent.
> 
> ...


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

ArtistSeries said:


> Thanks for the offer.
> I'm rather certain that the Prairies are not awash in crime and that this bump is explainable...


You're wrong. Happens almost every day:

Police apprehend man in bicycle shooting believed to be drug related

“EDMONTON - Police have arrested an individual in the day-light shooting death of Brandon Dierich, who was believed shot by a cyclist who fled into the Mill Creek Ravine.
Police spokesman Jeff Wuite confirmed the arrest early this morning.
Dierich, 23, was shot in his car in a drug related killing the Hazeldean neighbourhood Tuesday evening. Witnesses said the shooter fled into the Mill Creek Ravine on a bicycle.”

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/story.html?id=2bf725a0-a39e-489d-8383-29a326ddecf5&k=99070


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

Another drug related crime....
It's about time we legalize all drugs and get rid of the consequences of our absurd laws...


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

ArtistSeries said:


> Another drug related crime....
> It's about time we legalize all drugs and get rid of the consequences of our absurd laws...


but what about the "war on drugs" or the "war on terrorism?"

oh wait, poppy production is up in Afghanistan and our troops are over there

so is our gov't complicit in illegal drug production?


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

> ...they had strong leads on a suspect.


Just how many gun wielding lunatics on bikes could there be? :lmao: 



> It's about time we legalize all drugs and get rid of the consequences of our absurd laws


While I agree in part with this, someone sort of needs to show me the positive side of crack. For sure most of the drug laws in place to 'protect' society are pretty stupid when put side by side against the damage alcohol does to people. And smokes....well, it's illegal to sell poisonous substances for human consumption in Canada, so why you can buy smokes at the corner store is beyond me. :lmao:


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

absolutetotalgeek said:


> .... someone sort of needs to show me the positive side of crack.


Better than any diet...


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

> Better than any diet...


Well, I stand corrected. There you have it. Celebrity endorsements?


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## ArtistSeries (Nov 8, 2004)

absolutetotalgeek said:


> Well, I stand corrected. There you have it. Celebrity endorsements?


Marion Barry? He's respectable enough.


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

> Marion Barry? He's respectable enough


Not much of celeb now is he. Moron perhaps, tough to market him, I mean he doesn't even speak the same language as us....



> The laws in this city are clearly racist. All laws are racist. The law of gravity is racist.


 WTF?  Entertaining if nothing else.


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

absolutetotalgeek said:


> someone sort of needs to show me the positive side of crack


The positive side is personal choice. The burden of proof for banning should be on harm to others, which is difficult to demonstrate when much of the harm exists because it is banned. The positive is ignored or worse, given decades of "No drugs" education, and the negative side is, as based on observation of the black market, dramatically overstated.


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## absolutetotalgeek (Sep 18, 2005)

> The burden of proof for banning should be on harm to others, which is difficult to demonstrate when much of the harm exists because it is banned.


Just because it's banned doesn't mean there is any trouble obtaining it. You can practically find the s##t on the ground. I'm not sure where you live but you come on down to my area and I'll show you what harm to others looks like. 

_Difficult to demonstrate?_ That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

(_and I don't live in burlington anymore_)


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## Beej (Sep 10, 2005)

As with alcohol, banning it creates enormous funding for organised crime. It hands the market to them and increases the profits per successful trade.

That is harm that is observed that exists because it is banned. There are also quality issues because it is on the black market and social stigma makes things worse. What harm, beyond the individual, is truly inherent to the drug? That's what I mean by difficult to demonstrate. 

I have seen much supposition, claims of slippery slopes etc. But, when it comes down to it, does it meet the standards of many other things that society generally accepts (and applies "sin" taxes to, in many cases) when you look at inherent harm to others, not the results we see from our legal and education systems creating a social stigma and industries for criminals to run?


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## martman (May 5, 2005)

With crack we don't have the long history but when we look at heroin and opium we see that a steady picture of late 19th and early 20th century addicts who were not a major social problem till opiates were made illegal. Sure people were messed up on Heroin , morphine and opium but they for the most part had families and held jobs. Once the laws changed the problems started. We saw this again with alcohol prohibition. 
With crack we can only guess that without the criminality we'd be better off. Why?
In a black market drug situation addicts need to create new addicts in order to come up with the required money to feed their habits. Studies done in Amsterdam suggest that tolerance of drug use leads to a lower rate of use not higher as the addicts don't need to create new addicts when the prices are low. Also crime goes hand in hand with drug addiction because of this need for money. Make drugs cheap (or even free) and the drug related crime goes down.

This insistence on treating a medical problem (addiction) like a criminal problem has never proven to be an effective way to curb / control drug use. The insistence on it is like hitting your head on a brick wall. You can keep wasting money locking users up in jails but they wont stop using, just as you can keep banging your head on a brick wall but the wall isn't gong to come down. We spend billions of dollars on this every year in North America and we never get anywhere but worse. It's hard to see why anyone still buys into the "war on drugs" as it has been a colossal and extremely expensive failure. The belief that if we just keep trying we will win would be laughable if we weren't wasting so much money and resources on this battle.


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