# "Indian" Summer



## Mrs. Furley (Sep 1, 2004)

Is it actually politically correct to say this? I've made a point of not saying it for years, but I keep hearing it popping up all over the place - even that Dave Phillips guy keeps saying it. Personally, I don't feel comfortable using the phrase.

Opinions?


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## Griller (Jan 17, 2002)

Unless you're talking about people from India, then it's pretty much an archaic, inaccurate, and unintelligent term. Using the term "indian" to refer to people who are native to this continent is a classic mistake made by primitive European (French, Italian, British?) 'explorers.' For example, Canadians are from Canada, Indians are from India, Germans are from Germany, etc. The people who existed here long before Europeans sailed over are not "Indians" simply because this landmass isn't called India.

The actual weather phenomenon is defined as:
_An unseasonably warm period near the middle of autumn, usually following a substantial period of cool weather._
www.crh.noaa.gov/lmk/glossary.htm

_A period of abnormally warm weather in mid to late autumn with clear skies and cool nights. A first frost normally precedes this warm spell._
www.weather.com/glossary/i.html

Just because he's a weather expert it doesn't mean Dave Phillips is an authority in contemporary culture.


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## Mrs. Furley (Sep 1, 2004)

Thank you - that's what I thought! Although, I think it's just that most people don't know not to use phrases like that.

Considering I have Haida blood (from a few generations back) I think I might have to start speaking up about this, beginning with that Phillips fellah.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I don't see why late Summer or second Summer is not used instead as its descriptive and accurate, does not require further explanation and does not have the potential to offend anyone.


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## thewitt (Jan 27, 2003)

Why was it ever refered to as that?


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## iGeeK (Jan 27, 2003)

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/basics/indian-summer.htm


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

Are we being a little to PC? Now that I think of it, what would it be called?


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## iGeeK (Jan 27, 2003)

*Canadians are from Canada, Indians are from India, Germans are from Germany, etc. The people who existed here long before Europeans sailed over are not "Indians" simply because this landmass isn't called India.*

And what is it called? 

America.

Some people are rather ticked off that there are two continents named after some guy from Florence.

Names are arbitrary things, and someone will always be offended by them. It seems that it is human nature to always be in conflict, even over tiny things.

Personally, I'm still peeved over Europe being named after the heroine of that Zeus cock and bull story...

iG/<


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

I see nothing wrong with callling it Indian Summer, you politically correct wussies. Late summer or second summer just doesn't paint the same picture as that warm time of year when trees are turning red, orange and yellow. Only a scientist would call it someting so factual.


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## iPetie (Nov 25, 2003)

"I see nothing wrong with callling it Indian Summer, you politically correct wussies."

Pretty much what I was trying to say, in a politically correct wussie kind of way.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

perhaps best to get the opinion of someone representing First Nations


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## MBD (Sep 1, 2003)

> perhaps best to get the opinion of someone representing First Nations


Perhaps but he/she could only speak for his/herself as different people prefer different names to represent him/herself. My Indian/First Nations/Native friends call themselves Indians so go figure....


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## iGeeK (Jan 27, 2003)

*perhaps best to get the opinion of someone representing First Nations*

Well, there isn't any single ONE person representing all the nations. 

An Anishnabe friend is not bothered by the phrase, a Cree friend is, yet that is not representative of the Anishnabe or Cree position on "Indian Summer".

I think it's down to personal choice. If it offends thee, pluck it out...

As for PC, if it is necessary to ask if something is PC or not, obviously it is NOT PC. ;¬)

iG/<


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## Griller (Jan 17, 2002)

> ...
> And what is it called?
> America.
> ...


What "is" it called? Yeah, today it's called America. I think you should be asking what "was" it called. It wasn't America back then, and I sure wouldn't call them Americans (that'd be insulting). They existed before 'America.'



> I see nothing wrong with callling it Indian Summer, you politically correct wussies...


How about being factually correct then?

I didn't think this was a matter of political correctness. It's not a matter of opinion OR personal preference. It's a fact that it's an erroneous & inaccurate term. So why keep repeating it instead of finding something more accurate.

That's all I was saying. It is a fact that the people who lived here when Europeans arrived were not Indians, this wasn't/ isn't India. They should have been called by the name that they called themselves (ie. Iroquois, Huron, etc.). Which group was the one first encountered by Europeans? I'm not certain but, take their name and put it before "Summer"







ie. 'Iroquois Summer' or 'Huronian Summer.' That sounds way better --- it's got a cool cultural/ natural/ earthy vibe .









[ October 07, 2004, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Griller ]


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## Bolor (Sep 14, 2003)

Every summer, there is a large Indian Pow-wow at Logan Lake BC. ... and it is billed exactly as that. If the aboriginals are comfortable with the term "Indian" why do we non-natives feel we have to be so damn politically correct?


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## Mrs. Furley (Sep 1, 2004)

Now that I think about it, it's not so much a matter of political correctness but more a matter of being respectful, at least for me. And I don't think anyone needs to be getting all upset that we are wondering about this - it's a legitimate query for anyone who wants to be respectful.

I actually really like the phrase 'Second Summer" and I think it's a great way to refer to it. If others want to call it Indian Summer, so be it.


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

And what are we goin' to change next, Black Monday, Indian corn, Indian red, sauerkraut, frog's legs, chili, Dixie Chicks, stop naming hurricanes after women, ...


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## Kosh (May 27, 2002)

Oh and we also have to change the name of French Fries, after all the French didn't make them...

Did the Russians make Russian dressing? If not we'll have to channge that.

Probably gotta change a few town or city names too...


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

*"stop naming hurricanes after women".*....they did, it alternates.

and some baseball teams are under pressure for change for logo or name.

That said Indian summer is pretty generic and first nations often use Indian themselves when it's has no pejorative connotations.

White man has connotations as well - I'm sure Macspectrum likes Ukrainian for cultural descriptions like a Meti likes..well Meti.... not Indian or worse half breed.

With the way it's going it's going Holiday Season summer anyway.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Indian Summer...
Indian Summer...
Indian Summer...
Indian Summer...
Indian Summer...
Indian Summer...
Indian Summer...
Indian Summer...


PC types who have nothing better to do than try and force their petty views on others need to be taken out and beaten with a stick...

Language is filled to the brim with words whose origins are based on past predjedices. Get over it. Aboriginal north Americans could complain about the term, but unless the rest of the world becomes globally sympathetic.. I would not look for anything changing.

If you are going to change offensive words, write a new dictionary. Get everyone else to buy into it and enforce your cultural sensibilities on the world... 

The british empire tried that... let us know how you make out...


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Hmmm.... political correctness is one thing but the first (only) rule of sensitivity is to put yourself in the position of the other party. If First Nations people feel offended by this term, that's good enough for me. I cannot judge their degree of being offended. It is not good enough to say its all history since there are many aspects of history that no one is proud of. We can at least learn from history and try not to repeat it. Indeed, colloquialisms are often the most insidious forms of cultural insensitivity due to their ubiquity.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

I tend to agree with Jim's "rule" that "If First Nations people feel offended by this term, that's good enough for me. I cannot judge their degree of being offended." Obviously, there has to be a degree of reason underlying this sense of being offended. Such as, it would be unreasonable for me to be offended by anyone who feels that dachshunds are "freaks of nature". I have to admit, that I have used the phrase "Indian summer" in the past, but now tend not to use it for the very reason Jim so well outlined.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

PC becomes tricky in language. I tend to agree with the above two posts. I think if it personaly offends someone then it is allways wrong. Sure there maybe other terms that offend, but if it offends a race or nationality then it is probably best to back off. On the other hand I think our world has become so PC that it becomes dificult to be correct. You have to be so carefull, in this day and age regarding what you say


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Clockwork, try teaching in a university if you are concerned about PC. We have pages upon pages of topics we need to be careful with when lecturing. I was actually called upon to clarify a comment I made in a grad class pertaining to some adults being "aliterate". This is a real word and pertins to a person who is able to read but does not read. I was told I had to state "...but chooses not to read".







Of course, I was able to successfully defend my use of "doxiemoron" when I described my doxies as being "long short dogs, and that this was a doxiemoron". Luckily, the person did not know what an "oxymoron" was, so I won my case. 

So, score me as 1 win and 1 loss in the arena of PC.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Black comedians can make ****** jokes, Dr. G Yiddish jokes and Macspectrum a Ukrainian joke and BUT stray out of YOUR culture and all bets are off as to where the minefields lie.

If you don't KNOW don't tread. I agree with UTB as well.
It's fine line many times between irony, humour and bigotry and some the latter hides in the former.  

scratch a Canadian, find a "not American"  
Amazing that........


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Clockwork it's sort of like being a tourist and at least respecting the language culture you are in instead of viewing as a nisance on your holiday.
People will appreciate the attempt to be sensitive even if it's not always correct just as people appreciate even a small attempt to "speak their language" instead of shouting in English trying to make yourself undertstood.

Arigato brings a smile to every sushi chef.
Wishing my leasing manager a Happy Honica - just being aware of other cultures and respectful of them.
Try to build bridges when you KNOW the circumstance, try to avoid deep waters when you don't.

Do the culture thing wrong in Sierra Leone and on the wrong night you could wind up dead.
Cultures and languages and traditions are valuable diversity - respect is what it's about.
Leave the ethnocentricity at the door.


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## Clockwork (Feb 24, 2002)

I would imagine school would be tough. If you ever get a chance, watch a movie called The Human Stain. In it he uses the word spook. He uses this word because two of his students are not coming to class and he says they must be spooks. Unfourtunatly for him one of them is Black and even though he was talking about ghosts they kick him out. 

I remember asking a black guy one time about the word "******" he told me the same as what you mentioned Macdoc. If your black its cool and just what they call each other, if your white unless you know the person you may be in a world of trouble. I knew him well, so I used to call him it sometimes in a joking way. However I dont think its a very nice word at all, for anyone to say.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yet it's a word that should never be lost as it serves, like the drive to never forget the Holocaust, as reminder of the depths of inhumanity.


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Macdoc, 

Honica or Chanukah? But as you say, simply remembering is the important thing.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I've often wonder about the whole "N double-G R" word.

Typically, those of the african-american persuasion who have no problem calling each other the "N" word*, often find no problem calling me or my kind a "Cracker". But if I were to turn around and use the "N" word (in jest of course), watch out! Somewhat of a double-standard, methinks.

*I know there are some black folk who loathe the "N" word and are quick to chastize their own for using it, however.

That being said -- even using the term black is offensive to some African Americans. I wonder... I have a (caucasian) friend in BC who was born in South Africa; her father moved her to Canada when she was young... would that make her African American?

And why does the word _caucasian_ have _asian_ in it?  

My head is about to explode.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Jim, add to this Hanukah. "Oy vey!" as my grandmother was fond of saying.

Macdoc, you need not worry about telling Yiddish jokes around me. Sinc and Peter do it all the time. They are classics.

My favorite Yiddish joke is about the mother who takes her son down to the beach along Coney Island in Brooklyn. Suddenly, a great wave comes on to the shore and drags the boy into the ocean. His mother is frantic. She gets down on her knees and prays to God.

"Please, Lord, return my little Moishe to me. He is all I have in this world. I shall be a more devout Jewish person, and light a special Sabbath candle for you this Friday night if you only return him to me. Please, Lord, I beg you....".

God hears her prayers and sobs, and, being a benevolent God, decides to return Moishe to his mother. Another giant wave crashes in front of the grieving mother, who is lost in prayer, and deposits Moishe right in front of her.

She hugs little Moishe and then, with tears in her eyes, and a newly found love for God in her heart, she looks heavenward and exclaims,

"He had a hat!"


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

A classic Dr. G. that Rodney Dangerfield would have loved. The ability to laugh at ourselves before we laugh with others is precious.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Jim, Rodney D. might not have used this story since it was too long. A classic Yiddish joke in his delivery style might have been, 
My psychiatrist told my wife that our son has an Oedipus Complex. She said, "So? Just so long as he loves his mother."


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## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Not the right thread, but it does prove I love to tell Dr. G. a Yiddish story:

Morty and Saul are out one afternoon on a lake when their boat starts to sink.

Saul the banker says to Morty the entrepreneur, "So listen, Morty, you know I don't swim so well."

Morty remembered how to carry another swimmer from his lifeguard class when he was just a kid. So Morty begins tugging Saul toward shore. After twenty minutes, he begins to tire. 
Finally about 50 feet from shore, Morty asks Saul, "So Saul, do you suppose you could float alone?" 

Saul replies, "Morty, this is a heck of a time to be asking for money!

Cheers


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Strength of a culture the ability to laugh at itself. 
Bloody uptight Toronto WASPs......Sir Black......hmmmph  

Hey since I understood Hebrew has no vowels at all, anything remotely like the Hanuka et al should suffice to get the concept across  

Humour can heal or hurt depending on the context.....as ever  

What I wan to know is how to a heiroglyphic language squares with pronunciation.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Sinc, I should ask Peter if you could join our Jewish vaudeville act. "...float alone...." Oy Vey!!!!!
















Still, there is a smile on my face right now......


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## BigDL (Apr 16, 2003)

Indian Summer what does it really mean and where did it come from? Anyone know? Why would a person of first nation’s descent mind? 

Is it or was it a term used for something that is/was derogatory in nature?

Any fine weather up until September 20th, 21st or 22nd (depending on the year) is actually great late summer weather. 

When would the term “second summer weather” actually be appropriate?

Another issue what's up with the use in english of calling people names they would never call themselves. For instance at the Olympics or countries playing in the Canada Cup there were no countries called Greece, Germany or Finland on their team uniforms 

Come on folks Greeks, Germans or Fins? Not in their homelands. 

Where do we get off calling people what we feel like calling folks. 

When will we all rise up against these abominations in our usage of language? When?

Thankfully we are finally getting away from calling a certain country Holland.

Why is it in french the translation of the english words New Scotland are used instead of the proper name Nova Scotia?

As for french fries when and where I grew up we called them hot chips or fish and chips. 

Hot chips were potatoes freshly cut and cooked until the starches in the the potatoes turned to sugar and the sugars caramelise into golden brown pieces of heaven. Chips were best served with brown cider vinegar, salt and ketchup. Putting on those condiments on the chips in that order.

Unlike “french fries” that are pasty white over priced frozen monstrosities that are barely heated just to save the fast food joints money and maximise the multi-national companies’ profits. 

As for the early autumn weather here in the Maritimes it is absolutely glorious. This is the best place to be in Canada at this time of year. 

Folks in Salt Spring Island can brag on their winters. The East Coast consistently have the best and longest falls.


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

I beg to differ. Long after you east coasters have succumbed to fog and cold, we out here in the only mediterranean climate in Canada are enjoying warm fall days. Sometimes right into november.

Then the rains start. But we still get sunny days in the mid teens, even in december. Then, about two and a half or three months later, we begin to see the first signs of spring.

And there are very few snowplows in this area. The ones we do have, often sit idle and unused for several years at a time.

It's the very best and mildest climate in all of Canada. Bar none.

Hmmm....maybe I'll start a thread where I post a new "weather photo" every day or so, all year long, from here on Salt Spring Island. The rest of you could also post a weather photo from your area taken the same day. Just to compare.

Waddaya think? Cool idea?


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## MacNutt (Jan 16, 2002)

Oh yeah...and one more little tidbit before I hit the hay...

Masses of DNA evidence and the fossil record have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the people whom we refer to as "Indians" or "Aboriginals" were, most definitely, NOT the 'first nations' on this particular continent. They were, most probably "fifth' or "sixth" nations. Or even later.

We know now that North America was invaded and colonised numerous times over the past twenty five thousand years or so, by all sorts of people, from all sorts of radically different places. Some died out on their own. Some were killed off, or assimilated by later invaders. (Much as we of European blood have been doing in these parts, for almost three hundred years or so).

Guess what this growing mountain of scientific data has now told us?

The people who are now called "Indians" arrived rather late in the grand scheme of things. And they were predated (by almost ten THOUSAND years) by invaders from...wait for it...southern Europe!

The oldest skeletons ever discovered in North America have no genetic relation to what we now call "Native Indians" or "Aboriginals". And the so-called 'aboriginals' have a very old component of their DNA sequencing that is most definitely European.

The oldest flint tools and spearpoints found in North America bear a striking resemblance to the sort of spearpoints that were being made in Europe at the time...and bear NO relation at all to the spearpoints that were being made in Asia, at ANY time.

Despite the fact that common wisdom says that the "Native Americans" came across a land bridge from Asia about seven to ten thousand years ago. (One would think that they would have brought their weapons and tools from that area. Not suddenly abandon them, and invent brand new ones that look exactly like the ones that Europeans were using ten thousand years previously.)

Could Europeans have been the very first colonisers of North America? By almost ten thousand years?

Could stone age people from southern Europe have been living in North America since the last ice age, twenty five THOUSAND years ago?

Could they have been wiped out or partially assimilated by a massive wave of much later immigrants from Asia, ten or fifteen thousand years later?

Both the fossil record and the DNA record seem to be saying this. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, by the way.

This is scary stuff for the PC types. And it leaves the left/lib types in a serious froth, with their knickers twisted into a gordian knot.

Because, it is yet ANOTHER of their long-cherished beliefs that seems to be ready to be tossed onto history's ash-heap. Defeated by the cruel reality of historical fact. 

Just like all of the others that they held so dear.

Definitely scary stuff. At least for some of us.

Tell you what...save your outrage for saturday night. I'll be back here then. Ready to deal with all of the slings and arrows.  

Promise.

[ October 09, 2004, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: macnutt ]


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## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

Stick to cheer-leading for Dubya, macnutt. Your attempt at anthropology conveniently forgets the various disceptions and massacres of the indigenous people by the colonizing Europeans on both American continents. The First Nations peoples are not claiming the entire continent - their land claims represent less than one per cent of the land mass and are a small fraction of the treaties signed by the French, Americans and British. And if you do not understand the derivation of the term "Indian" then check the beginning of the thread. There is nothing Indian about the aboriginal people of North America.

Two steps forward, one step back.


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## MACSPECTRUM (Oct 31, 2002)

thanks for putting that so well UtbW
i'm afraid my rebuttal wouldn't have been so diplomatic


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

MacNutt you just continue to amaze - a teeny tiny bit of Clovis controversy that MIGHT have some substance embedded in a dung heap of nonsense.
Stick to the politics, at least it's amusing.









What are we going to hear next, quotes from von Daniken







......oh yeah, you don't reference do you.  

••••

BTW there IS some evidence for much earlier migration..........from Australia  180 degrees ouot of step again MacNutt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/430944.stm

[ October 09, 2004, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: MacDoc ]


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, your problem is that you are a baby boomer. From "The World According to Macnutt", and I quote, "The baby boomer generation has made a 180 degree shift in it's overall thinking during the years between the sixties and the current period. They've grown up. WE'VE grown up." 

So, Macdoc my dear friend, your learning and beliefs have taken an about face. You should realize that the opposite of rational academic debates is not a fair and open presentation of the facts and theories that have been accumulated, and then to discuss these findings to either accept or reject their premise. You never made your "...made a 180 degree shift" in your overall thinking. Get with the program, man. You shall soon be entering a mystical realm of black and white, rich and poor, right and wrong. No shades of grey or possibilities that theories evolve over time after careful consideration of the facts as they now exist. 

So, tune out your rational thoughts, turn on you blinders, and drop in to the Wonderful World of Macnutt. You shall feel "much better" if you do this simple act of conversion. Trust me on this, my friend.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

...I guess I just need to ingest a larger dose of soma.


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

And the Lord said unto Macnutt, "Cast out those who mock THE Word, for THE Word is good and it is whole. And always remember that an addlepated bestelhead and his/her specie divaricate with startling prematurity."


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, re your comment "I guess I just need to ingest a larger dose of soma, remember the proverb that is proclaimed in "The World According to Macnutt" -- "The Right kind of thinking will help you to think Right".

I always thought that this was incorrect grammar, until I realized the semantic meaning of the word "Right". I guess we non-believers are the last to know. Paix, mon ami.

[ October 10, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Dr.G. ]


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Ummmm "soma"....... Dr. G that was MY comment not Macnutt's .........changes the context a bit.
Wanna reload


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## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macdoc, sorry. I was thinking "Macdoc" and typed in "Macnutt". It is written in "The World According to Macnutt" that "HeShe who has erred in his/her predictions, typing and voting shall be forgiven all the days of his/her life." 

So, I give thanks for living in a country that allows for typographical miscues and the freedom of speech and expression. Paix, mon ami.


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