# Urgent. Good time to buy refurb iMac?



## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Hello. My mom is about to buy a refurb iMac but apple just released it's newer generation of iMacs with a slightly faster system bus. I'm guessing it's going to take a while before the newer ones make their way into the refurb section so I was figuring that now is a good time to buy.

I'd be very interested to hear everyone's opinion on this.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, I would just go ahead and by the refurb. Unless she's really needing something very powerful, any refurb iMac will do the job perfectly. It's not such a significant difference and you are saving money, right?


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

I hope you can get a french keyboard with a refurb mac. It would really suck if you couldn't. The french keyboard is 100% prerequisite.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

You should check with Apple if you can get one with a French keyboard. I'm not sure if you can but it depends on where you're located.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

I think with refurbs you get what you get. I know from brand new you can make a choice...


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> I think with refurbs you get what you get. I know from brand new you can make a choice...


That would really suck. If that is the case, I might consider boycotting apple for a while until they change their policy. You want to do business in Quebec? I'm not paying more for a french keyboard, sorry. I'll try ordering by phone but if my Mom has to a) buy a french keyboard or b) spend 500$ more to buy a new mac to get a french keyboard, it's no deal.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

You can always sell the english keyboard, spend a couple extra and get yourself a brand new french keyboard.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Pat McCrotch said:


> That would really suck. If that is the case, I might consider boycotting apple for a while until they change their policy. You want to do business in Quebec? I'm not paying more for a french keyboard, sorry. I'll try ordering by phone but if my Mom has to a) buy a french keyboard or b) spend 500$ more to buy a new mac to get a french keyboard, it's no deal.


With all due respect, that's a terribly juvenile attitude. "boycotting apple" until they "change their policy"??

The Refurbs are sold "as-configured". They are reselling models that were purchased, returned for various reasons, checked out, and offered again for sale.

If Apple Canada has a Mac with a French keyboard returned, it will be checked out and posted under the refurbished section. This has nothing to do with Apple's policies regarding doing "business in Quebec".

You can buy a nice, new, Macintosh fully configured with French-language OS and keyboard all ready to go. But don't jump on Apple for not reconfiguring their refurbished models because you want it in a particular setup.

If I look at the refurb selection, and see a great deal but it comes with an 80 gig hard drive but I really need a 120 gig hard drive, I don't bitch about Apple not serving my needs. I wait until the model I want comes along. 

I *do* recall seeing Macs with french keyboards in the refurb section -but they are exceedingly rare. It's not a policy decision, it's a reality of stock and availability.

M


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Quicksilver G4 said:


> You can always sell the english keyboard, spend a couple extra and get yourself a brand new french keyboard.


True. But that is a mega pain in the ass just to get a french keyboard. It should be an option in my opinion. Unfortunately, Apple and I often have differing opinions with what I consider treating people with respect. It seems you sometimes have to threaten them a little to get what you want.

Most of my dealings with apple Canada have been pretty unpleasant unfortunately and although I like my Mac now that I got one that isn't always breaking down (which, in my opinion I was entitled to since I payed for the product and thus have the right to have one that works). Hopefully the nice salesperson on the phone will gladly offer to send me a french keyboard but I have to prepare a plan B if push comes to shove.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> True. But that is a mega pain in the ass just to get a french keyboard. It should be an option in my opinion. Unfortunately, Apple and I often have differing opinions with what I consider treating people with respect. It seems you sometimes have to threaten them a little to get what you want.


I'm with CubaMark on this. You're being juvenile.

First of all, you haven't even yet bothered to call them and ask, and you're already threatening them. VERY mature.

Secondly, your "boycott" is entirely laughable. "Quebec Mac owners who demand a French keyboard on their refurb" would be let's see ... hang on, I have the figures, here we go ...

0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% of their business.

Yeah, you'll show em!

While I've never had to do exactly what you've done, I assisted with a similar situation a while back. Customer called me, he'd ordered a refurb for his older relative but they were slow to adopt because their English literacy was poor. Told him how to change the onscreen menus to Spanish, and they asked if a spanish keyboard was available. I said yes and told them to call Apple.

The next day, they did. Apple said "no problem, order a spanish keyboard, we'll send it, send your english one back and we'll credit you."

Done.

Perhaps -- if you're friendly and polite instead of threatening -- you'll get the same treatment when you call. Bottom line: it's not a big deal.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

chas_m said:


> I'm with CubaMark on this. You're being juvenile.
> 
> First of all, you haven't even yet bothered to call them and ask, and you're already threatening them. VERY mature.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Disappointing. It's that attitude that makes me embarassed for being canadian. You obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. Sorry I started posting here again. Bye.


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## crazy (Feb 27, 2008)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Hmmm. Disappointing. It's that attitude that makes me embarassed for being canadian. You obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. Sorry I started posting here again. Bye.


What does being Canadian have to do with this?
I don't think you're totally getting it...

The refurbished Macs are ones that were bought and then returned back to Apple. If the person who returned it bought a French Keyboard-equipped, then they would refurb that and you could get that. However, they probably get more machines with English keyboards. Put yourself if their shoes, if you refurbed a computer with an French keyboard, would you keep a brand new English keyboard in case someone wanted an English one, and then be forced to sell the French keyboard separately?

Its like going to a car dealer and being angry that you can't find a red used car.



And what is a one-person boycott going to do?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Hmmm. Disappointing. It's that attitude that makes me embarassed for being canadian. You obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. Sorry I started posting here again. Bye.


Feel free to argue your case... :baby:


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> I'd be very interested to hear everyone's opinion on this.


Unless they in some way don't tell me what I want to hear.

Don't let the door hit you on the rear on the way out, Pat.

PS. I live in Victoria, and can see the Centre of the Universe from my window. Guess what -- it doesn't look like you!


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Hmmm. Disappointing. It's that attitude that makes me embarassed for being canadian. You obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. Sorry I started posting here again. Bye.


me thinks you had a similar post and stopped.

go figure.

but give apple a call.

the benefit of doubt is something going amiss in this world...

call them up and ask. you never know and if you never ask, you never have a chance of getting anything you're after.

cheers,
keebler


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

keebler27 said:


> me thinks you had a similar post and stopped.
> 
> go figure.
> 
> ...


FYI, I did call apple and explained to them that I'm trying to convince my mom, who only has use for a computer with a french keyboard because it's language she works with every day, to switch to Mac. I told them that I found a refurb that was at a price that she could afford but that she has no use for a computer with an english keyboard. The customer service person just told me to buy a brand new one so that I could have the option or it was tough bananas. I told her that I thought that if apple decides to sell their products in Quebec, they should offer mainly the french keyboard and maybe the english keyboard as an option. She transfered me to a US customer service representative.

I then explained to the sales rep that I'm trying to get my mom to buy a model iMac that was inside her budget but that the people at apple canada told me I had to buy a french keyboard separately or just buy the retail model, which exceeds my moms budget. The american customer sales rep couldn't believe that I was told I would have to pay more, or get a more expensive computer just to get a keyboard in my language. She appologised many times over about the rudeness of the previous rep and while she transfered me she tried to start some small talk about how she had a friend that was half canadian which was cute because like most americans, she knows nothing about Canada.

It's a sad day when americans, a culture not known for tolerance and openness to other cultures, understand what it is to treat someone with respect. Just because you speak a certain language doesn't mean that you are normal and that others are somehow «special». My mom has the right to buy a computer that it is in her language and shouldn't have to pay more to get it. I understand that it is a refurbed computer but it takes little resources to open a box and put a french keyboard in the box instead of an english keyboard. If french keyboards are so rare and special and english keyboards normal and widespread, then apple will have no trouble finding a taker for the english keyboard my mom has no use for.

It's not about paying for this and paying for that and % of sales market. It's about treating people with dignity. If I own a bakery and I usually charge 1$ for bread but charge you 5$ because you speak english, imagine how you would feel. Anyway, if you are willing to ridicule me and accuse me of being juvenile, then you have no idea what respect is, even for cultures unlike your own, and that's not something I can teach you over an internet message board. It is saddening to see that intolerance and close-mindedness is alive and well in Canada and that includes Apple Canada in Markham, Ontario.

P.S. I started out by being nice but once again, the only way to really get service from apple Canada was to be heavy handed and coercive. Now, thanks to Apple, USA, my mom will get a computer for the same price as everyone else. Oh, and I won't let the door hit my back on my way out, just make sure it doesn't hit your face when I slam it.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> FYI, I did call apple and explained to them that I'm trying to convince my mom, who only has use for a computer with a french keyboard because it's language she works with every day, to switch to Mac. I told them that I found a refurb that was at a price that she could afford but that she has no use for a computer with an english keyboard. The customer service person just told me to buy a brand new one so that I could have the option or it was tough bananas. I told her that I thought that if apple decides to sell their products in Quebec, they should offer mainly the french keyboard and maybe the english keyboard as an option. She transfered me to a US customer service representative.
> 
> I then explained to the sales rep that I'm trying to get my mom to buy a model iMac that was inside her budget but that the people at apple canada told me I had to buy a french keyboard separately or just buy the retail model, which exceeds my moms budget. The american customer sales rep couldn't believe that I was told I would have to pay more, or get a more expensive computer just to get a keyboard in my language. She appologised many times over about the rudeness of the previous rep and while she transfered me she tried to start some small talk about how she had a friend that was half canadian which was cute because like most americans, she knows nothing about Canada.
> 
> ...


glad it worked out and she's getting the right keyboard.

it sounds like you do need a hug though. i'm not offering, but I have to honestly wonder if "McCrotch" is your last name for real or just a nickname that is incredibly befitting. ie. crotchety....ie. crabby....easily irritable.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Pat McCrotch. Think about it. Close friend of Mike Hunt. Well, Pat, if you adopted the same persuasive technique on the phone with Apple Canada that you demonstrate here, it's not too surprising they transferred your call. Seriously, dude. You need to lighten up and realize the world is not out to get you. If you really want to save money, why not check eBay or Kijiji? If you're after quality, I'd pony up and spend the extra bucks for something that's exactly what you want. It is what it is.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Pat McCrotch. Think about it. Close friend of Mike Hunt. Well, Pat, if you adopted the same persuasive technique on the phone with Apple Canada that you demonstrate here, it's not too surprising they transferred your call. Seriously, dude. You need to lighten up and realize the world is not out to get you. If you really want to save money, why not check eBay or Kijiji? If you're after quality, I'd pony up and spend the extra bucks for something that's exactly what you want. It is what it is.


My handle was just intended to be a joke. I'm glad they transfered my call. They transfered my call to someone who treated me nicely, instead of acting like the spawn of satan. When I call apple, I just want to resolve a problem or get help with something. Receiving verbal abuse and always having to ask to speak to a supervisor is not my idea of customer service. Why help someone nicely when you can be a total asshole during the whole call, right?

Still from your post I can tell you have no idea where I'm coming from. That's ok, how could you know until you live it, right?


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Anyway, if you are willing to ridicule me and accuse me of being juvenile, then you have no idea what respect is, even for cultures unlike your own, and that's not something I can teach you over an internet message board. It is saddening to see that intolerance and close-mindedness is alive and well in Canada...


FWIW, in my case I have over a decade-and-a-half of working internationally, cross-culturally, with youth in often challenging situations. Understand something: my response to you had nothing to do with culture - it is entirely related to your demonstrated attitude. My Canada includes Québec (indeed, I spent several years working for a national organization and operated in a fully bilingual environment). 

Your mother has every right to a computer that speaks her language - and it's available, at the Apple Canada Store (en français, I might add). She is not "entitled" to a refurbished computer configured according to her desires. She has the right to wait until a French-language keyboard / OS iMac appears on the refurb page. As I said - they exist but are rare.

I am glad that you were able to find a solution to your problem, but this "hard done by" attitude of yours will bring you nothing but misery throughout your life.

M.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Pat McCrotch said:


> My handle was just intended to be a joke. I'm glad they transfered my call. They transfered my call to someone who treated me nicely, instead of acting like the spawn of satan. When I call apple, I just want to resolve a problem or get help with something. Receiving verbal abuse and always having to ask to speak to a supervisor is not my idea of customer service. Why help someone nicely when you can be a total asshole during the whole call, right?
> 
> Still from your post I can tell you have no idea where I'm coming from. That's ok, how could you know until you live it, right?


Sort of. I've had my share of poor customer service too, but taking it out on the front line worker rarely works. You probably should let Apple Canada know in writing that there are a great many francophone users out there who would like to be treated as well as anyone else. They do it for hispanic people in the US. Best of luck.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Your mother has every right to a computer that speaks her language - and it's available, at the Apple Canada Store (en français, I might add). She is not "entitled" to a refurbished computer configured according to her desires.


Ha! Have you ever tried calling Apple Canada and request french from the menu? As soon as you ask ANY question, it requires a call transfer, which requires to continue in english. My mom is entitled to the same discounts as any other citizen. The people at Apple USA understand that it takes little compromise on their side to take a french keyboard from their warehouse and pop it in the box to allow someone to own their first Mac in a supposed "official" language. Official my ass.

A city right besides the nation's capital won't even consider helping my mom out whereas some guy from arizona is willing to spend 5 seconds from his life to give her a keyboard in her language. Absolutely disgusting.

And to whomever said that I shouldn't ask a question if I didn't want to hear the answer: I didn't ask to be called juvenile, I asked if it was the right time to buy a Mac.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> You probably should let Apple Canada know in writing that there are a great many francophone users out there who would like to be treated as well as anyone else. They do it for hispanic people in the US. Best of luck.


Bingo. Could you imagine Apple from CALIFORNIA, denying people a spanish keyboard? They'd probably have every anti-defamation and government agency up their behinds... again, I really can't understand why Apple, out of all the companies, have to be so awful. I think I'd enjoy talking to collection agency more than one of their customer service reps! It defies logic.


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## Guest (May 12, 2008)

I don't see any discrimination going on here ... when you buy a refurbished computer don't forget it's a _used_ computer. It generally comes with whatever keyboard it originally had. The argument you are presenting here has little merit, but I'm glad you got what you needed. Maybe Apple is at fault for not saying exactly what keyboard it has with it -- or if there are options for the choice of refurbished keyboards available to go with it.

Also please don't say that I have no idea where you're coming from (if you are in doubt, read my username again)


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

mguertin said:


> I don't see any discrimination going on here ... when you buy a refurbished computer don't forget it's a _used_ computer. It generally comes with whatever keyboard it originally had. The argument you are presenting here has little merit, but I'm glad you got what you needed. Maybe Apple is at fault for not saying exactly what keyboard it has with it -- or if there are options for the choice of refurbished keyboards available to go with it.
> 
> Also please don't say that I have no idea where you're coming from (if you are in doubt, read my username again)


It's odd that there's no link to the refurb macs on the .ca french site either. I looked with the friendly american reps to try and find it but we couldn't. The Apple France website has a link on it and they speak french there too.

I found out that the policy of Apple USA (country that doesn't have french as an official language) doesn't exclude my mom from a french keyboard and that the policy of Apple Canada does. Apple Canada is making it real hard for me to like them right now.


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Bingo. Could you imagine Apple from CALIFORNIA, denying people a spanish keyboard? They'd probably have every anti-defamation and government agency up their behinds... again,


On a new computer, yes. On a refurb computer, no. It would cost Apple extra money to swap out a keyboard, negating the savings on a refurb item. Apple made a special case to keep you happy, and you should be grateful instead of demonstrating this childish sense of self-entitlement.

As a general policy, refurbs should be exactly what they are. Just like used cars. If a used car dealer had a car with an english dashboard, would you whine and complain that they should swap in a french one for free? Why should the dealer swap the dashboard, at his expense, to make you happy?


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## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Pat McCrotch said:


> I told her that I thought that if apple decides to sell their products in Quebec, they should offer mainly the french keyboard and maybe the english keyboard as an option. She transfered me to a US customer service representative.


And if too many people like you call and complain, Apple will simply stop selling refurbs in Quebec.


> I understand that it is a refurbed computer but it takes little resources to open a box and put a french keyboard in the box instead of an english keyboard. If french keyboards are so rare and special and english keyboards normal and widespread, then apple will have no trouble finding a taker for the english keyboard my mom has no use for.


Actually if those refurbs are housed in a location that doesn't stock single keyboards, it takes quite a bit of resources. You have to pay someone to go get a french keyboard ship it to the location that houses the refurbs, pay someone else to receive it, open a box, swap the keyboard, and mark that box just for you (so it doesn't go to someone else who orders a refurb iMac). That takes time and money. I'll bet Apple is going to use quite a bit of resources to make you happy.


> It's about treating people with dignity. If I own a bakery and I usually charge 1$ for bread but charge you 5$ because you speak english, imagine how you would feel.


What a terrible analogy. A better one would be me expecting the baker, who just made 100 loaves of raisin bread and charged $1, to pick out the raisins and put chocolate chips in their place, and still charge me $1 instead of $1.25 for a new loaf of chocolate chip bread that is already on the shelf.


> Anyway, if you are willing to ridicule me and accuse me of being juvenile, then you have no idea what respect is,


When you make childish self-entitled statements, expect to be called on it. Crying about how you were wronged on completely invalid points is not deserving of respect.


> even for cultures unlike your own, and that's not something I can teach you over an internet message board. It is saddening to see that intolerance and close-mindedness is alive and well in Canada and that includes Apple Canada in Markham, Ontario.


It's a computer keyboard, not health care. :baby:


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## MacAndy (May 17, 2004)

Pat McFakeName... no one here is interested in picking a fight, but you clearly have a chip on your shoulder, and it's not Apple's fault.

It's not a question of what percentage of Canadians are french-speaking, it's a question of what percentage of Apple computer buyers in Canada buy a french keyboard. If that percentage is nominal, then the cost to supply such keyboards is going to be more. Quite simple really, it's called Capitalism, quite popular over here, for hundreds of years apparently. A french keyboard costs more because a lower quantity is produced.

If I went to Quebec for an extended period of time and wanted to buy an Apple at a local retailer, and found they only sold French keyboards, would I be shocked? Have you asked any Quebec-based Apple retailers what their french keyboards retail for? More than english I would bet, simply because Apple Canada charges more due to lower demand.

Once again, as others have reiterated here time and again - there were no refurbished units available with french keyboards. End of story.

We wish your mum all the luck in the world with her Mac, maybe she'll join us on here for some more intelligent conversation.

Thanks.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> It's odd that there's no link to the refurb macs on the .ca french site either.


I think you got your answer right there as to why they didn't want to swap out the keyboard. They don't have a French refurb section in Canada, clearly this must present a problem for them on a bottom line basis with refurbs.

Just to make it clear as well, Apple with their French website isn't specifically doing business in Quebec. They are providing a French website for French speaking Canadians, wherever they reside. It is not incumbent on Apple to swap out the keyboard, just because they have a French version of their website. I agree with with you from the sounds of it they need to retrain their service people to be more cordial and helpful and even to "look into" if they can help you, but it in no way should be standard policy to swap out anything on a refurb.

You seem to think it should be your right to obtain a keyboard in the language of your choice because your mother lives in Quebec. I find this rather ironic when you don't even have the right to do business in the language of your choice in Quebec as mandated by Bill 101. If you want to talk about rights, I think their are more important rights being denied by Quebec to Quebecers than Apple.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

Hey Pat, get a PC or drop dead.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Another strange thread with little connection to reality...

Apple, or any company for that matter, can make whatever they want in whatever language they want. Just like some stuff that comes with French / German / Arabic / Chinese / Korean / Japanese instructions (but none in English). And really, if a company does not want to put French on the packaging, they can just sell their product in a more profitable nation just below the border. I bet the iPhone does not currently come in French - and that has not hindered sales in any measurable way.

Using his argument, I could make the demand that Apple provide me with a Latin and a Greek keyboard for my system, oh, and a Korean keyboard for my girlfriend because they should be forced to give away keyboards for whatever language catches my fancy.

The Evil Empire does not support many languages, and I don't hear this dude complaining that M$ does not support Icelandic or Hungarian out of the box.

A refurb is a refurb. If someone wants a fully customized brand new machine, they should just buy the new machine. It would be like if I sold something, like my Sony tube amp - but couldn't because it wasn't in French.

This dude is always complaining about Apple stuff :baby: ; this is no different. But I bet if he went PC, he'd have the same complaints, and oddly enough, he'd probably complain about them here! :lmao:


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

screature said:


> I think you got your answer right there as to why they didn't want to swap out the keyboard. They don't have a French refurb section in Canada, clearly this must present a problem for them on a bottom line basis with refurbs.


Do you mean to say that rather than deal with the hassle of french speakers who want service, they just eliminated the refurb section altogether on their french website? I'm not sure exactly what you meant that's but personally, I don't think that's an ethical business practice.



> You seem to think it should be your right to obtain a keyboard in the language of your choice because your mother lives in Quebec. I find this rather ironic when you don't even have the right to do business in the language of your choice in Quebec as mandated by Bill 101. If you want to talk about rights, I think their are more important rights being denied by Quebec to Quebecers than Apple.


Again, it seems that you don't know where I'm coming from and don't fully understand the history of Quebec and the reason behind bill 101. However, just the fact that you bring up bill 101 (which is actually law 101 because it was voted and passed) shows that you at least have some understanding of what Quebec is and I appreciate that you discuss facts about my province, instead of just insulting me like some other people on this message board.

Go back only 30 years and it was virtually impossible to get a well paying job if you didn't speak english. The executive class was almost exclusively english speaking and the french speakers would only be hired for factory type jobs. Quebec is a province that has a majority of french speakers and we feel like it is our right to live (i.e. shop, fill out out tax forms, vote and work) in our native tongue. Although making it mandatory to be able to work exclusively in french is «forcing people» to speak a language, it is a reaction to decades of blatant inequality and oppression. It's somewhat like affirmative action in the USA: replacing one evil with another to try to tip the scale back. Not everyone agrees with the law but most feel like it is a necessary evil so that people can live in their language.

I understand that Apple doesn't owe me anything and that in Canada, french speakers are a small part of their market. I understand how capitalism works and why it would cost more to provide a french keyboard. However, some people consider Apple to be an alternative to a capitalist monster by the name of Microsoft. In Canada, the two official languages are french and english and in Quebec, I'm entitled to speak french and live in french and it is a right that is protected by provincial law.

Although you accuse me of being juvenile and not having «intelligent» conversation, the american sales representatives thought it was an outrage that I would be denied a keyboard in my language and that I shouldn't be charged extra to have a computer in my language. I didn't yell at them to get them to say that, I simply told them that I wanted to buy a refurbed mac, but that I need a french keyboard for my mom and THEY are the one's that couldn't believe Apple Canada wouldn't give me one, free of charge, even if we represent a small (or smaller) part of the market. The Apple USA representatives didn't lecture me on capitalism or the process of refurbishing a computer, they thought my mom was «entitled» to getting a Mac, even if it is refurbished and there are few or no french refurb computers on sale.

If Apple Canada keeps it up, I might give a call to l'office de la protection de la langue française and see what the provincial government thinks about this situation and if it is ethical or even legal. Again, I find it disappointing that americans would know more about this than many posters here. You should turn on the TV sometimes and realize that there's a whole other culture and way of life going just east from you.

And to the poster who recommended writing a letter I think that's a constructive idea. Wether my mom buys a Mac or not, I will ask Apple Canada myself to explain to me why refurb computers aren't really available in french in Quebec and why we are not «entitled» to having a discounted computer even if we represent a small sector of their market share. I might post a *.pdf of their reply if/once I get it.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Mon Dieu! This thread is still alive?

Pat, give it a rest. All of this over a $49 keyboard!


> writing a letter I think that's a constructive idea. Wether my mom buys a Mac or not, I will ask Apple Canada myself to explain to me why refurb computers aren't really available in french in Quebec


As I stated, *they are* - but they are rare, because they receive very few French-language Macs as returns that make it through the refurb process.

You asked for our opinions, we gave them, you negate anything we try to tell you - so either wear the label _juvenile_ or leave us thinking that you have some sort of superiority complex.

And MacAndy had a very good suggestion - once your mom is connected, sign her up, so we can have a little chat with her about how her son is behaving.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

EvanPitts said:


> Apple, or any company for that matter, can make whatever they want in whatever language they want. Just like some stuff that comes with French / German / Arabic / Chinese / Korean / Japanese instructions (but none in English). And really, if a company does not want to put French on the packaging, they can just sell their product in a more profitable nation just below the border. I bet the iPhone does not currently come in French - and that has not hindered sales in any measurable way.


You are partially right, however it is the law that they have to have at least french if not both official languages on their packaging in Quebec. The reason is that like you, Quebecers use computers, televisions, cars and plenty of technology that isn't produced in Quebec. Imagine if you bought a Toyota, but the instruction manual came only in Japanese. It's a Japanese car, perhaps sales are great in Japan and couldn't care less about printing the safety warnings inside the car in english. It is, however, required BY LAW to offer the instructions in a language understood by canadians (in quebec, the most widely understood language is french). Imagine a french speaker buying a food product, but it is only written in english that the product contains nuts; if that person is allergic to nuts, he could have serious complications. Again, it is required by law that the ingredients and health chart be in french or french and english.



> Using his argument, I could make the demand that Apple provide me with a Latin and a Greek keyboard for my system, oh, and a Korean keyboard for my girlfriend because they should be forced to give away keyboards for whatever language catches my fancy.


Actually, I doubt that a Latin keyboard exists as it is a defunct language that isn't spoken outside of the fields of science and academia. However, if I were a citizen of Greece, Apple would have to provide me with a Greek keyboard, because it is the official language. It is a criterion a company must meet to export it's product in another country.

Take for example video games. Video games in north-america were for the longest time only in english, meaning that most Quebecers won't understand the manual or be able to follow the game's story because of english dialogue. Now that video gaming is much more widespread, it is required that a french version of a game be available for sale in Quebec. 



> The Evil Empire does not support many languages, and I don't hear this dude complaining that M$ does not support Icelandic or Hungarian out of the box.


Actually, when you buy a PC in Quebec, you have the option to have it configured in french or english at no extra charge. Windows has pretty much always been available in french. The big advantage with Mac is that on the one DVD, all languages are available whereas if you buy a PC in french, you would have to buy a whole new copy to switch it to english. Again, it's the law.



> A refurb is a refurb. If someone wants a fully customized brand new machine, they should just buy the new machine. It would be like if I sold something, like my Sony tube amp - but couldn't because it wasn't in French.


If the instructions were exclusively in english, Sony would not be allowed to sell that Amp in Quebec.



> This dude is always complaining about Apple stuff :baby: ; this is no different. But I bet if he went PC, he'd have the same complaints, and oddly enough, he'd probably complain about them here! :lmao:


I've complained when I felt my rights as a consumer, citizen or human being are being violated. When Apple refused to replace my first Macbook that had everything inside it fail, I felt like my rights as a consumer (the right to have a functional version of the product I have purchased). When Apple Canada won't give me service in french, my rights as a citizen are violated. When Apple Canada are impolite with me, my rights as a fellow human are violated, unfortunately, there is no law that I know of against being disrespectful in conversation.

If it was Apple's policy on refurb computers exclude me as a french speaker, then I probably would switch back to PC as a matter of principle (even though according to the aforementioned capitalist rationale, only one user switching would have little to no impact on their sales). I however, found out that Apple USA doesn't exclude me from a properly configured discounted computer because of my language, so I will choose to keep doing business with a company that has ethical business practices. Like I've been mentioning all along, I find it extremely disappointing that Apple Canada and most people on this board don't agree with me and Apple USA, or at least disagree respectfully. It goes to show that the rift between french and english speakers in Canada is still large and both sides still have a long ways to go to understand each other.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, guys come on just spend the extra $20 by selling the keyboard that comes with this one and getting a french one. Why are we so much over this? I know the policy isn't the best, but it's just the way it is.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> You asked for our opinions, we gave them, you negate anything we try to tell you - so either wear the label _juvenile_ or leave us thinking that you have some sort of superiority complex.


I asked whether it was a good time to buy a Mac. I didn't ask whether you thought Apple's behavior was ethical, I simply stated that I thought their practice was unethical and for that, I was called juvenile and that my conversation was unintelligent.

Being an english speaker, it must be pretty hard for you to understand what it's like being denied something based on your language. Fortunately for us, in the new political reality Quebecers have built for themselves since the 70s and the increasing autonomy we have in our province, we have laws that insure that we can live in the main recognized language of our citizens, french. Again, I, as well as the employees of Apple USA think that you are way of the mark with your opinion but notice that I wasn't disrespectful towards you.

You don't have to agree with me, but if you come to my province and start doing business, you will have to conduct it in french.


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## keebler27 (Jan 5, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> You are partially right, however it is the law that they have to have at least french if not both official languages on their packaging in Quebec. The reason is that like you, Quebecers use computers, televisions, cars and plenty of technology that isn't produced in Quebec. Imagine if you bought a Toyota, but the instruction manual came only in Japanese. It's a Japanese car, perhaps sales are great in Japan and couldn't care less about printing the safety warnings inside the car in english. It is, however, required BY LAW to offer the instructions in a language understood by canadians (in quebec, the most widely understood language is french). Imagine a french speaker buying a food product, but it is only written in english that the product contains nuts; if that person is allergic to nuts, he could have serious complications. Again, it is required by law that the ingredients and health chart be in french or french and english.
> 
> 
> Actually, I doubt that a Latin keyboard exists as it is a defunct language that isn't spoken outside of the fields of science and academia. However, if I were a citizen of Greece, Apple would have to provide me with a Greek keyboard, because it is the official language. It is a criterion a company must meet to export it's product in another country.
> ...


Pat, I don't think people are disagreeing. I agree with you - there should be choice, but I understand why there isn't with refurbs - it's probably a simple supply and demand issue. ie. more Eng keyboards being sold and made available for refurbs. It's simple math in my mind. Yes, Apple could toss in a French keyboard, but that's not in the cards given how they are selling refurbs.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Quicksilver G4 said:


> Well, guys come on just spend the extra $20 by selling the keyboard that comes with this one and getting a french one. Why are we so much over this? I know the policy isn't the best, but it's just the way it is.


Why pay 20$ if Apple USA will give my mom the keyboard for free? That's capitalism right there.


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## mikelc2 (Mar 3, 2008)

Pat McCrotch said:


> If Apple Canada keeps it up, I might give a call to l'office de la protection de la langue française and see what the provincial government thinks about this situation and if it is ethical or even legal. Again, I find it disappointing that americans would know more about this than many posters here. You should turn on the TV sometimes and realize that there's a whole other culture and way of life going just east from you.



You mean the culture just to the east of us that wants to be a seperate country.

I hope to never cross paths with you, or there will be some problems. There are so many things I could say about that incredibly self centered, naive statement, however there would be lots of swears and bashing you involved.

What about the Native American's of Canada? Hold on, lets call apple. They should stop ALL production of ALL English everything and produce only French keyboards so that they can support that small minority.

Get out of Canada... that attitude isn't wanted here.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Why pay 20$ if Apple USA will give my mom the keyboard for free? That's capitalism right there.


Well, why not do that then? Maybe convince Apple to send you one? 

EDIT: How about try calling them and speaking in french, the key here is to speak in french and tell them that you only speak french and want a french keyboard.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Quicksilver G4 said:


> Well, why not do that then? Maybe convince Apple to send you one?
> 
> EDIT: How about try calling them and speaking in french, the key here is to speak in french and tell them that you only speak french and want a french keyboard.


I am currently ordering my mom's Mac through Apple USA for that reason.

Every time I call Apple Canada, I ask to be assisted in french. Unfortunately, once I've asked my question (like, is my iPod still under warranty, or why is this not working, or I'd like to buy a refurb mac with a french keyboard) they nearly always ask me if I am willing to continue in english or else they will have to call me back. I opt to continue in english because I am comfortable in that language and I understand if not all Apple's personnel speaks french. The service is sub par in my opinion, but at least they are trying to meet me half-way in that regard.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Actually, when you buy a PC in Quebec, you have the option to have it configured in french or english at no extra charge.


As is perfectly correct and just - a NEW PC, not a Refurb.



> I am currently ordering my mom's Mac through Apple USA for that reason.


Oh dear. and in a week's time, will you be back here to complain about the import duties you'll need to pay because you ordered it from the USA?




Mikelc2 said:


> Get out of Canada... that attitude isn't wanted here.


Mike, Pat - though infuriatingly unable to grasp the core issue here, has said nothing about wanting to separate from Canada - indeed, he identified himself as a Canadian. IMHO - that was uncalled for. Québec *is* a distinct society and deserves to have a special relation within confederation (though I am wholly opposed to separation).

M


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Just a warning, as the previous poster said, you'll need to pay import duties and taxes which can be upwards of $100+


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Yes, but he'll have a $49 keyboard en français, as he wanted....


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

So, overall it's best to just order it from Canada and do as I said, sell it and pay a couple extra for a brand new french keyboard with no pieces of popcorn stuck in between the keys :lmao:

Plus it'll take only 1-5 days to get here. 

Also, to correct my self when I bought something from the US and it was shipped by UPS, had a value of $35 I had to pay $25. Imagine how much you'd have to pay. Unless you have it shipped by USPS, you'll have to pay both duties and taxes, with USPS you'll only have to pay the taxes, which can be a lot at times.

EDIT: I calculated and for a package of $900 value you'd have to pay $117 in taxes, then if it wasn't shipped by USPS, you'd have to pay extra for duties, which comes to about $200+


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## mikelc2 (Mar 3, 2008)

CubaMark said:


> Mike, Pat - though infuriatingly unable to grasp the core issue here, has said nothing about wanting to separate from Canada - indeed, he identified himself as a Canadian. IMHO - that was uncalled for. Québec *is* a distinct society and deserves to have a special relation within confederation (though I am wholly opposed to separation).
> 
> M


By that I meant start acting like a true canadian instead of a capitalist american? 

Actually it was more out of fury.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Do you mean to say that rather than deal with the hassle of french speakers who want service, they just eliminated the refurb section altogether on their french website? I'm not sure exactly what you meant that's but personally, I don't think that's an ethical business practice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh actually if you cared to look at where I live you would happen to notice that Quebec is my province as well. And I am damned sure I have lived here a lot longer than you and know it's history intimately and from a first hand perspective!

Clearly what you are not getting is that Apple is running a business, they are not providing a Government service. If it is not a economically viable for them to offer a refurb section on the French site the don't HAVE to. They obviously don't get enough returned french product to cover the cost of running a refurb section or they would. Again they are a business and make their decisions based on the bottom line.

Your reference to "go back 30 years and it was virtually impossible to get a well paying job if you didn't speak english. The executive class was almost exclusively english speaking and the french speakers would only be hired for factory type jobs.", shows how little YOU actually know about the history of Quebec. I was a teenager thirty years ago in Quebec and my parents knew plenty of French speaking executives, they were friends of the family. If you go back FIFTY years you might be right. 

The French have and always will have the RIGHT to work and speak in their own language in Quebec, it has never been deprived of them in law as it has for anglo or allophones in Quebec. Just what "years of inequality and oppression" are you referring to and by whom? It certainly has not been by the *Governmen*t of Canada. I challenge you to site one actual example of Canadian legislation that supports your claim. Certainly there were by certain corporate entities, cases of inequality, but these are private, not public interests.

Quebec historically suffered much more oppression from the church than it ever did from the state.

You should also keep you references straight I NEVER said to you "Although you accuse me of being juvenile and not having intelligent conversation", someone else may have but I never did.

You seem to think that the American reps were superior in their "outrage" over your situation. Of course they could afford to be as they do not run the Canadian division and are not responsible or accountable for their practices. They can afford to be sympathetic because it is of no consequence to them.

l'office de la protection de la langue française would have nothing to say as the service you are utilizing, "the refurb section of the English language web site of Apple Canada" is not being offered in Quebec. If there were a refurb section on the French web site then you would have a case, but there isn't so you don't. Your "outrage" is misplaced, there is nothing unethical or illegal about Apples business practice as there is no refurb section on the French site.

I think if you were treated decently by the Apple Canada service people in your previous contacts with them and were told politely that they would look into a French keyboard for you at not charge, you would not have been so upset had they come back and explained to you that they just couldn't do it because they do not have a refurb section on the French web site.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to Apple Canada (as has been evidenced in a previous thread by you). That chip may be there for good reason, however don't let it muddy your reasoning when it comes to the case you are trying to make here. You are reacting on an emotional basis and not from a position of business understanding. 

That is not to say that with different management or different executive leadership at Apple Canada they wouldn't throw in the French keyboard for free. They may look at it as good customer relations and even a loss leader if it got you "on board with Apple". However those are *business* considerations and decisions, they are not ethical or legal in their implications as you portray them to be.


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## nice&easy mac&cheesey (Apr 10, 2008)

*Well, here goes...*

Although I know the better option is to stay out of this, here goes...

Pat, the general theme here is not that anyone disputes your right to purchase a computer in your own language. The problem arrises when you are trying to purchase a refurbished Mac (read: used). These are not Macs that Apple simply pulls off of the production line and earmarks for the Refurb store to be nice guys and offer them at reduced prices. You are purchasing someone else's returned machine, and it's accompaniments (ie, keyboard and mouse). If a Francophone returned a Francophone machine, that machine got fixed and posted on the website and you saw it and bought it; life is a cabaret. But you cannot be upset that not enough Francophone machines have broken down to stock the Apple Refurb site for you with French Macs.

This would be like me (an Anglo in case you haven't guessed, and not that it should matter but for the following example) getting upset that on a given day the Apple Refurb site sold out of English Macs and only offered French ones. Guess what? Tough luck for me... check back tomorrow.

Don't get me wrong on this. I have experienced less than stellar customer service from Apple (one Product Expert to be exact). I think that perhaps, with a little sweet talking on your part, they could have gone the extra mile for you to replace the English keyboard for a French one. But to expect it as a right?? You lost me there.

I support Quebec as a strong, important and distinct part of Canada. So this has nothing to do with political views. This is a business matter. It's not that Apple has to sell English or French anything in your province either... The Apple Refurb store simply resells what has been returned, refurbished and is ready to go.

I am glad you came through for your Mom (Happy Mother's Day indeed). I hope she enjoys her Mac. I also hope that you at least try to take an objective look at this issue. As I see it, it has nothing to do with your Franco-rights being quashed or stepped on. It has only to do with the fact that the store was out of French refurbished keyboards and the person you spoke to at Apple Canada decided, for whatever reason, not to be extra nice and accommodate you.

Just as you would not want your province defined and judged by only one of it's citizens, perhaps you may give some thought to doing the same for Apple Canada.

We could all be a little more tolerant, no?

Vive la Différence!!

n&e, m&c


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

But does it matter if you get the english keyboard? There are only a few different keys.


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## Dr_AL (Apr 29, 2007)

I would love to put my two cents in, but I'm going to play it safe, and keep my minority anglophone, non-french speaking, Quebec ass out of this conversation. As I think it is great that I can't go to Tim Horton's and can't order a maple dip donut and chicken soup in English without pointing in many places in Montreal. I've also not be served since I don't speak French, that was a very nice experience.


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## harzack86 (Jan 30, 2005)

Actually, it would be funny if Apple sent an actual French Keyboard, which has a totally different layout than a French-Canadian keyboard 
I use my Mac in French, and I'm very happy with the US keyboard, using a US-International layout that let me type all French characters easily...


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## fewnfar (Dec 28, 2007)

I think it's funny that an old topic by him saying how macs suck pops up at the same time he wants to help his mom get a mac. 
Yeeesh, must not like his mom much...


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## zenith (Sep 22, 2007)

Perhaps Pat McCrotch might be a happier person if he spent more time actually patting his crotch and less time being bitter towards Apple.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

screature said:


> The French have and always will have the RIGHT to work and speak in their own language in Quebec, it has never been deprived of them in law as it has for anglo or allophones in Quebec. Just what "years of inequality and oppression" are you referring to and by whom? It certainly has not been by the *Governmen*t of Canada. I challenge you to site one actual example of Canadian legislation that supports your claim. Certainly there were by certain corporate entities, cases of inequality, but these are private, not public interests.


Example of state oppression: October crisis.

The idea that francophones have always had the right to speak french at the workplace is total fantasy. Of course there never was a law saying "no french at work" but you don't have to go back very far to find that many employers would not hire french speakers. If you just look at statistics, on average, english speakers made an overwhelmingly larger average salary than even bilingual citizens, with french speakers trailing far behind. Yep, even knowing both languages meant on average you made less than an only english speaker.

I've experienced that first hand in the work place. I used to work for Imperial Tobacco as a LAN technician and guess what, all the big management guys were english. It was a company run by "old english money" as they say. Imperial Tobacco gave my dad (a british immigrant) free french lessons and all meetings had to be held in french if someone requested, but can you imagine one french person asking all his colleges to speak french when he's around. They company had to implement those changes and diversify their hiring policy but what stood in front of me every day was an institution so cemented in the english tradition, that the french speakers stick out like sore thumbs. That's in the IT/management side. Walk over to the factory and check out all the electricians and such and it's the total opposite, not a word of english being spoken. Only french people. The poorest enclaves of the island of Montreal are usually predominantly also. I live that reality every day and it's pretty hard not to see it.



> Quebec historically suffered much more oppression from the church than it ever did from the state.


I agree.



> ]You should also keep you references straight I NEVER said to you "Although you accuse me of being juvenile and not having intelligent conversation", someone else may have but I never did.


surprisingly, few people agree with me here, although some have hinted that Apple's policy is not the greatest. It's hard to keep track with who said what, sorry if I insinuated you said something you didn't.



> You seem to think that the American reps were superior in their "outrage" over your situation. Of course they could afford to be as they do not run the Canadian division and are not responsible or accountable for their practices. They can afford to be sympathetic because it is of no consequence to them.


I don't get it. They are not Apple Canada so they can afford to give a damn that I want a computer in my language? I would think the situation would be the exact opposite. Apple Canada should be outraged since they operate within a french speaking province and are accountable for the treatment of their citizens.



> l'office de la protection de la langue française would have nothing to say as the service you are utilizing, "the refurb section of the English language web site of Apple Canada" is not being offered in Quebec. If there were a refurb section on the French web site then you would have a case, but there isn't so you don't. Your "outrage" is misplaced, there is nothing unethical or illegal about Apples business practice as there is no refurb section on the French site.


L'office de la protection de la langue française deals with just that. Trust me. They are zealous enough that they will fine bar owners that use Budweiser beer coaster that are only english. I know they would be all over this case. I'd rather not go that route, because I wouldn't want any legal proceedings against Apple; I'll try to get treated fairly first and if that fails, the I'll see what happens.



> I think if you were treated decently by the Apple Canada service people in your previous contacts with them and were told politely that they would look into a French keyboard for you at not charge, you would not have been so upset had they come back and explained to you that they just couldn't do it because they do not have a refurb section on the French web site.


Maybe. Then again, I'm calling Apple trying to convince my mom to get a Mac. I want her to get a Mac. The only way I managed to convince my mom to get a Mac is by looking at discounted ones. Already I'm on the side of Apple; I want the sale to happen! If I hate Apple, I wouldn't try to convince my Mom to switch. When Apple Canada tells me that what you see is what you get, how do I explain that to my mom?

I understand totally the deal with refurbs that they are returned computers and I know Apple Canada would gladly sell me a computer with a Mandarin keyboard if one popped up. However, you know as well as I do that a computer with the correct configuration AND a french keyboard would be such a long shot, it's basically unfeasible. Since I live in a province where I am entitled, by law, to purchase a product in my language and that an english computer will probably realistically not be available, I consider it Apple's responsibility to make a french keyboard available. If was dealing with Apple in Australia, I wouldn't argue, but in Quebec, I feel that I my mom is entitled to a discounted computer in her language, even if less are sold and I'm pretty sure my government will agree. 



> That is not to say that with different management or different executive leadership at Apple Canada they wouldn't throw in the French keyboard for free. They may look at it as good customer relations and even a loss leader if it got you "on board with Apple". However those are *business* considerations and decisions, they are not ethical or legal in their implications as you portray them to be.


One could argue that acting ethically and displaying good business practice is good for business and is thus a business consideration as you say.

Just to say, «well, refurb computers are sold as is and we rarely see french ones come in, so I can't help you» is unethical in my opinion. Not even advertising on their website to avoid the hassle is even more unethical. At least they could offer to sell me a discounted french keyboard in lieu of the english one, it would be a step in the right direction. My mom tried calling Apple to order her computer today and someone struggled to speak with her for about 35 minutes but she agreed to give her a french keyboard. It was so hard for her to communicate with my mom that she transfered her to someone else who changed the tune and said that no french refurbs were available.

I'm going to write a letter to Apple Canada and ask them if they truly believe that it is fair that my mom cannot benefit from a discounted computer since french one's rarely show up. I'd like to see in writing what the PR specialists will cook up for me. I bet you you they'll be an iMac with a french keyboard and all the bells and whistles and a letter of apology on my mom's doorstep the next day. This problem is mainly due to the middle men and women who seem to be as ignorant as many posters on this site.

Again, Apple USA totally agreed with me and were about to get a french keyboard off their store and then credit me the price of the keyboard so I didn't have to pay more. Unfortunately, one of their transfers didn't work and we got disconnected. They tried to find the offers on computers with french keyboards but couldn't find the refurb section on the french site. That's why they had to transfer me again and I got disconnected.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Perhaps I may intersect here.

You are both partially correct. Back in the day when the British conquered New France and conglomerated it with British holdings and did the whole upper and lower Canada deal. They enacted several acts of legislation. One of them being the Test Oath. In order to become officially involved or hold any office in the government you had to first pledge allegiance to the British Crown. Of course, the francophones being FRENCH were catholic and were traditionally and culturally opposed to bestowing such loyalty.

In this way the francophone community was indeed particularly oppressed and were largely kept out of government office.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Dr_AL said:


> I would love to put my two cents in, but I'm going to play it safe, and keep my minority anglophone, non-french speaking, Quebec ass out of this conversation. As I think it is great that I can't go to Tim Horton's and can't order a maple dip donut and chicken soup in English without pointing in many places in Montreal. I've also not be served since I don't speak French, that was a very nice experience.


It can happen. But can you really get angry if someone can't serve you in english in say... Germany, France, Italy or Japan? Most folks in quebec will do the best they can but if they don't speak english, it happens. Many people I deal with on a daily basis hate english speakers like the plague and I'm usually more moderate about that and assure them that many english canadians are not assholes and are actually really nice. Thankfully the community at ehmac doesn't represent well the country as a whole, or else I wouldn't have much basis for my argument. Then again, maybe it does and maybe I'm just an idealist.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

> I understand totally the deal with refurbs that they are returned computers and I know Apple Canada would gladly sell me a computer with a Mandarin keyboard if one popped up. However, you know as well as I do that a computer with the correct configuration AND a french keyboard would be such a long shot, it's basically unfeasible. Since I live in a province where I am entitled, by law, to purchase a product in my language and that an english computer will probably realistically not be available, I consider it Apple's responsibility to make a french keyboard available. If was dealing with Apple in Australia, I wouldn't argue, but in Quebec, I feel that I my mom is entitled to a discounted computer in her language, even if less are sold and I'm pretty sure my government will agree.



I am sorry. You have no case there whatsoever. You are arguing the availability of a computer in a official language of Canada. That is fair. Apple offers that, in their new section. Indeed you are entitled to buy a computer in your first language from Apple, and you are indeed able to.

Apple has already satisfied its duty to Canada's dichotomy. Refurbs are an extra service that it chooses to provide outside of that. If you really want your french keyboard then you have to buy their regular product. Unfortunately, most of Apple Canada's sales are in English and French refurbs are difficult to find.

The Canadian Government would not agree with your argument.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> Perhaps I may intersect here.
> 
> You are both partially correct. Back in the day when the British conquered New France and conglomerated it with British holdings and did the whole upper and lower Canada deal. They enacted several acts of legislation. One of them being the Test Oath. In order to become officially involved or hold any office in the government you had to first pledge allegiance to the British Crown. Of course, the francophones being FRENCH were catholic and were traditionally and culturally opposed to bestowing such loyalty.
> 
> In this way the francophone community was indeed particularly oppressed and were largely kept out of government office.


You don't need to go back to the colonies to find funny business coming from the state. A few years ago evidence surfaced that the liberal party illegally funneled excessive funds to an organization promoting the NO vote at the last referendum on national unity. Personally, I am not for separation but it is still illegal to spend excessive amounts of money on a political campaign in an attempt to one-up your competition.

Basically, I think Canada has come a long way since then and we don't need a separate country to be treated with dignity. Apple Canada makes me feel like I'm taking a jump back 30 years into the past.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Adrian. said:


> I am sorry. You have no case there whatsoever. You are arguing the availability of a computer in a official language of Canada. That is fair. Apple offers that, in their new section. Indeed you are entitled to buy a computer in your first language from Apple, and you are indeed able to.
> 
> Apple has already satisfied its duty to Canada's dichotomy. Refurbs are an extra service that it chooses to provide outside of that. If you really want your french keyboard then you have to buy their regular product. Unfortunately, most of Apple Canada's sales are in English and French refurbs are difficult to find.
> 
> The Canadian Government would not agree with your argument.


The bottom line is this: My mom can only afford a refurb computer, so it's a refurb or no computer. I suspect many english canadians are in the same boat. A discounted one, or none. I believe that french speakers are as much entitle to the refurbs as an english speaker and just because they are more rare is no excuse in my eyes.

Who said I would bring it up with the CANADIAN government? The Quebec government has taken great strides to protect the french language, you'd be pretty surprised. If discounted french computers are rarely available, then it is their obligation, to make it available to french speakers. Just because there are less of them doesn't mean they don't deserve the same deals.

Don't wonder why quebecers want to separate. If Quebec was a sovereign nation, we'd have an Apple Quebec headquarters with plenty of friendly people willing to speak to my mom and french and there would be an abundance of refurb french computers lying everywhere in their warehouse. Just because we are still part of Canada and thus a minority doesn't mean we don't deserve all the same goodies that english Canada does.

It's easy for you to say I have no argument because if you had my family's financial situation, you could choose from a wide array of refurbished computers. I bet if the tables were turned and YOU were the one that had absolutely no computer to choose from and someone to speak to you in your language over the phone, you would change your tune.


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## weezertom (Apr 22, 2008)

*haha*

go ahead and seperate.. you guys wouldn;t have the economy to support an apple store... the world doesn't owe you anything... maybe if you spend more time working and less time complaining about not getting what you're "entitled" to you'd suck it up and just buy a new french keyboard..


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

weezertom said:


> go ahead and seperate.. you guys wouldn;t have the economy to support an apple store... the world doesn't owe you anything... maybe if you spend more time working and less time complaining about not getting what you're "entitled" to you'd suck it up and just buy a new french keyboard..


Actually, Quebec is very rich in natural resources and is a huge exporter of electricity, pulp and paper and agricultural products. Many large profitable corporations are based in Quebec. Bombardier and Ubisoft Montreal being only a few examples.

You are right, the world doesn't owe us anything but quebecers owe it to themselves to be able to live in their language and have it's culture flourish.

I work very hard and I can afford to pay more to get a french keyboard. My Mom can to. I just don't think she should have to "suck it up" because she is not an english speaker.

EDIT: We do have the economy to support an Apple store. There is one in Laval.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

May I respectfully suggest to the moderators that this thread be locked before we degenerate into a nasty anglo-franco war of words?

M


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## fewnfar (Dec 28, 2007)

Sigh.....this whole thread has turned into a anti-Quebec/pro-Quebec thing, which is totally retarded....(i think the whole Quebec separtist movement is swimming against the currents of globalisation and history, but whatever...)
The whole point was this (as many other people have pointed out): 
You are buying a REFURBISHED computer. This means someone else bought it (whether it be English, French or Martian for all I care). They had problems with it, did not want it, or whatever; so they returned it. Apple does the following;


Each Apple Certified Refurbished Product:

* is fully tested (including full burn-in testing).
* is refurbished with replacement parts for any defective modules identified in testing.
* is put through a thorough cleaning process and inspection.
* is repackaged (including appropriate manuals, cables, new boxes, etc.).
* includes the operating software originally shipped with the unit and the custom software offered with that system. See each products "Learn More" for more details.
* is given a new refurbished part number and serial number.
* is placed into a Final QA inspection prior to being added to sellable refurbished stock. 

Refurbishment procedures follow the same basic technical guidelines as Apple's Finished Goods testing procedures.


(2) What should I expect when I purchase an Apple Certified Refurbished Product?

* Substantial savings
* A fully functional unit with complete documentation
* The assurance that the unit meets Apple's premiere quality standards, and that its defective components have been replaced by genuine Apple components


Apple does not do the following:

1) Ask itself, gee, will a French speaking person buy this product? Well, better pack a French keyboard in just in case!
2) Ask itself , What is the status of the Francophone culture in Quebec? 

Plain and simple. Say if I moved to Montreal, post a classified ad to sell a computer. You see it, decide to buy it. Am I unethical or dishonest for selling you a computer with an English keyboard? Of course not.
Apple is a business, they are giving you a discount for buying a USED computer (which was configured for a totally different person).
If you sincerely believe Apple is a unethical business, you or mother should not buy from them, because as consumers the only true power we have is with our wallets.

But I really don't think this is the case, I think you're just a troll with an axe to grind.


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## mikelc2 (Mar 3, 2008)

Adrian. said:


> I am sorry. You have no case there whatsoever. You are arguing the availability of a computer in a official language of Canada. That is fair. Apple offers that, in their new section. Indeed you are entitled to buy a computer in your first language from Apple, and you are indeed able to.
> 
> Apple has already satisfied its duty to Canada's dichotomy. Refurbs are an extra service that it chooses to provide outside of that. If you really want your french keyboard then you have to buy their regular product. Unfortunately, most of Apple Canada's sales are in English and French refurbs are difficult to find.
> 
> The Canadian Government would not agree with your argument.


You are 100% correct. Pat, you have no case here. This is not a fight against french canadians... or anything of that sort. I have plenty of family that live in Quebec, so I don't look down on Quebec.

Now, please understand this Pat, it is your right to have a French Canadian keyboard made available to you. This is not the case with refurbished products. Refurbished products include components that were included with the original order, so if that order was an english order, that used english keyboard is going to be included. Apple would have to take a loss to be able to provide a NEW french keyboard with a refurbished order. This is not an economical business decision.

When ordering a new computer, you are getting a new components, and you are paying for new components, so naturally it would not be a problem to include a french keyboard for no additional cost.

If that's blurry and doesn't make sense, I apologize as I am tired, and doing other things at the same time.


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## Quicksilver G4 (Jan 29, 2008)

Pat McCrotch said:


> I work very hard and I can afford to pay more to get a french keyboard. My Mom can to. I just don't think she should have to "suck it up" because she is not an english speaker.


Well, this is based on availability. I would guess that if they had a french version available, they would give it to you. But they don't. so that's just the way it's going to have to be for now. If they don't have it available they can't make it available because no one has returned a french iMac yet. Most of us are english speakers or perfectly understand english and therefore choose the english iMac and not the french one. It's like going to a store and wanting chocolate cookies, but they don't have them in stock and all they have is rasin cookies. They can't make it just pop up right there, someone has to deliver them to the store. 

So, bottom line pay the extra $20 and be done with it. Apple isn't trying to be mean or anything, it's just that they have to include a french refurbished keyboard and if there aren't any available you can't do that. 

Or, check your local future shop and see if they have a french refurb.


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

shane3547 said:


> Typical Quebec'er response ...
> 
> Anyone notice that whenever someone from Quebec complains about the world not going there way they blame it on Canadians, yet when the world is glorious they say it's cause there Quebec'ers? Correct me if I'm wrong, it pains me to say this, isn't Quebec a Province of Canada?
> 
> ...


That is by far the most ignorant thing I have ever read on this board, definitely next to Veej's comment about Mexicans. Pure ignorance. You suffer from clear reductionism, clearly such single cause explanations have no explanatory integrity. 

Frankly put, you are wrong and what you are saying is rather dangerous. If we separate Quebec and provide them their sovereignty then we have failed to negotiate a common understanding and mutual partnership in this federation, we have also, pardon my logical fallaciousness opened the doors for any province or nation of people within Canada to demand independence. May I remind you of Kosovo? Or more recently, look at Belgium, it is on the verge of collapse because of a nationalist dichotomy. Nationalism is a very dangerous thing my friend; It has torn countries apart before. Any province or, indeed, identifiable nation within Canada could claim precedence on Quebec's case and gain legitimacy. 

This could work both ways: Perhaps the west and Ontario would rid themselves of the financial piggy backing Eastern Canada (I honestly mean no offense to any Easterners). There is very evident separatist sentiment in Western Canada as well. They have a booming economy and population, why should they be paying a federal government to a country that is an economic liability and responsibility? The territorial and federal integrity of Canada would be compromised by allowing Quebec to separate. 

Your apparent patriotism is quite destructive. Ironic, although true. Canada's identity, although yet to be popularly defined and developed, must include our ability to meet consensus, accords and respect and mutual agreement with other cultures. If we were not, we would go to war frequently like the United states has. 

Quebec is strategically, politically, culturally and historically significant to Canada. Loosing it would be a great tragedy to our identity. One cannot be patriotic and take your stance without having first reconcieved and miscued a very fundamental facet of our identity as Canadians.


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## mc3251 (Sep 28, 2007)

*Nutty Thread*

This thread has nothing really to do with refurbed computers or keyboards. The OP is clearly a pissed off person who is looking for opportunities to hold forth on his political passions.

I am Canadian. I support Quebec as a distinct society. I also think that the rest of Canada contributes when virtually every product that comes into Canada has to be in French and English-this has got to add to cost-although I'm not sure how much. So while I understand and agree that Quebecers should be able to be "served" in their native tongue, the landscape looks different in BC where frankly Mandarin is much, MUCH more widely spoken than French. I get the "founding" nations argument-I'm just talking about the day to day reality of demographics in 2008.

Used is used.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Example of state oppression: October crisis.
> 
> The idea that francophones have always had the right to speak french at the workplace is total fantasy. Of course there never was a law saying "no french at work" but you don't have to go back very far to find that many employers would not hire french speakers. If you just look at statistics, on average, english speakers made an overwhelmingly larger average salary than even bilingual citizens, with french speakers trailing far behind. Yep, even knowing both languages meant on average you made less than an only english speaker.
> 
> I've experienced that first hand in the work place. I used to work for Imperial Tobacco as a LAN technician and guess what, all the big management guys were english. It was a company run by "old english money" as they say. Imperial Tobacco gave my dad (a british immigrant) free french lessons and all meetings had to be held in french if someone requested, but can you imagine one french person asking all his colleges to speak french when he's around. They company had to implement those changes and diversify their hiring policy but what stood in front of me every day was an institution so cemented in the english tradition, that the french speakers stick out like sore thumbs. That's in the IT/management side. Walk over to the factory and check out all the electricians and such and it's the total opposite, not a word of english being spoken. Only french people. The poorest enclaves of the island of Montreal are usually predominantly also. I live that reality every day and it's pretty hard not to see it.


The October Crisis was exactly that a crisis, the government of the day was dealing with terrorists. You can argue that Trudeau overreacted by invoking the War Measures Act and I wouldn't disagree, but they were extraordinary times and certainly were not indicative of a systematic oppression.

You seem to be somewhat selective in your reading and argumentation. I said quite clearly there have been acts of inequality on the part of corporations. The example you site does not support your case. You were citing years of inequality and oppression as a justification for "Law" 101 as a retaliation for those injustices. Those injustice were carried out by the private sector, not the government, there is a huge difference.

Of course there needed to be changes brought about to rectify the situation you illustrate, but Bill 101 was not the answer. You do not create justice for one group by denying it from others. To state a very obvious cliché, two wrongs do not make a right. 




> L'office de la protection de la langue française deals with just that. Trust me. They are zealous enough that they will fine bar owners that use Budweiser beer coaster that are only english. I know they would be all over this case. I'd rather not go that route, because I wouldn't want any legal proceedings against Apple; I'll try to get treated fairly first and if that fails, the I'll see what happens.


Again you have totally missed the point. *There in no refurb section on the French web site.* Therefore they are not offering a unilingual English service in Quebec. Take the issue to L'office de la protection de la langue française please do, maybe they can make you understand.




> Since I live in a province where I am entitled, by law, to purchase a product in my language and that an english computer will probably realistically not be available, I consider it Apple's responsibility to make a french keyboard available.


And they do, where those products are being offered. Refurbs are not being offered on the French site. You are using the English site to access the refurbs.




> Just to say, «well, refurb computers are sold as is and we rarely see french ones come in, so I can't help you» is unethical in my opinion. Not even advertising on their website to avoid the hassle is even more unethical. At least they could offer to sell me a discounted french keyboard in lieu of the english one, it would be a step in the right direction.


You keep refering to refurbs as discounted computers which they are not. They are returned product. They aren't new products on sale. There is a world of difference. This is not an ethical issue it is pure supply and demand. Apple has every right to decide what is in their best business interests, they are not providing a social service they are running a company. If it is not economically viable for them to sell French refurbs they have every right not to offer them for sale. It maybe a bad business decision on their part but it is not unethical.



> I'm going to write a letter to Apple Canada and ask them if they truly believe that it is fair that my mom cannot benefit from a discounted computer since french one's rarely show up. I'd like to see in writing what the PR specialists will cook up for me. I bet you you they'll be an iMac with a french keyboard and all the bells and whistles and a letter of apology on my mom's doorstep the next day.


This is an absolutely reasonable course of action. I would not expect your Mom to receive it the next day  but it maybe forth coming. However, You really should adjust your all or nothing thinking here, your Mom *has* access to refurb (discounted in your erroneous jargon) computers (through the English language site), she just doesn't get a free French keyboard.

You will find that a well reasoned and calm approach will get you a lot further in life than emotional, irrational outrage. Make your case reasonably, without accusing them of being unethical or breaking the law, (because they are doing neither and you will only be getting "their backs up" and you will be less likely to get what you want) on the grounds that it would be good business practise for them to do so because they will have another Apple convert who will continue to do business with them and spread the word about "how great Apple is etc.., etc... I would not be surprised at all if you received the keyboard you are looking for.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Adrian. said:


> Perhaps I may intersect here.
> 
> You are both partially correct. Back in the day when the British conquered New France and conglomerated it with British holdings and did the whole upper and lower Canada deal. They enacted several acts of legislation. One of them being the Test Oath. In order to become officially involved or hold any office in the government you had to first pledge allegiance to the British Crown. Of course, the francophones being FRENCH were catholic and were traditionally and culturally opposed to bestowing such loyalty.
> 
> In this way the francophone community was indeed particularly oppressed and were largely kept out of government office.


Ahh, yes Adrian, but those were pre-confederation days, I said cite Canadian legislation.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

fewnfar said:


> Plain and simple. Say if I moved to Montreal, post a classified ad to sell a computer. You see it, decide to buy it. Am I unethical or dishonest for selling you a computer with an English keyboard? Of course not.
> Apple is a business, they are giving you a discount for buying a USED computer (which was configured for a totally different person).
> If you sincerely believe Apple is a unethical business, you or mother should not buy from them, because as consumers the only true power we have is with our wallets.


Apple USA isn't unethical, because they are willing to give us a french keyboard without extra charge on a refurb. They consider it our right to receive a computer configured in our language, even if it is refurbished. They decided to include us in the Apple experience rather than exclude us based on some business reality that I think has no marketing value.

The example you give is not relevant because you wouldn't be a registered business. Apple is not selling refurbs out the back of a truck or on craigslist so they have to abide by certain laws.

Say you move to Montreal and sell computers as a registered business. You only sell english versions of Windows Vista and XP and advertise all your merchandise exclusively in english because you serve an english neighbourhood and couldn't be bothered to advertise in french and english and provide your products in french. Someone points it out to l'office de la protection de la langue française (the office for the protection of the french language, organization that enforces law 101). A few government agents visit your business a pop an injunction on your desk which states "you must change your advertising in at least french if not both official languages within 10 business days or you will be fined 6000$". If you don't comply they will come back and they will fine you, repeatedly. If you don't comply, they will shut your business down and seize your capital. People have defied this law and lost.

Provincial law aside, I think Apple Canada is shooting itself in the foot by not being able to provide a courteous service in english, not even able to provide a basic service in french and by not trying to accommodate my mom, even if it means a little extra trouble and maybe a slight loss of 50$ on a transaction of over 1000$. It's like a car dealer not willing to throw in free floor mats on a car that costs 30'000$. I bet many people like me have called them and tried to deal with them and found that they won't offer an acceptable service and are turned off of Apple and just buy a PC (which my mom is on the verge of doing). I see past the company (which offers abysmal customer service) and still enjoy the product but I bet Apple Canada would have more takers and a greater market share if they were as respectful as Dell or Microsoft in there customer service. I've never been verbally abused by these aforementioned companies before because they are better at business and they know you sell more computers with smiles and a phony «have-a-nice-day-sir» than an sales rep that thinks that speaking english loudly will make a french speaker understand them.


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## DDKD726 (Feb 21, 2005)

Is thread dead yet???

So Apple USA is better then Apple Canada, we get it. Case closed. Move along folks, there is nothing to see here...


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

screature said:


> Ahh, yes Adrian, but those were pre-confederation days, I said cite Canadian legislation.


It's not necessarily written in the law. Most of the short-changing was societal, like unethical hiring policies and salary discrepancy. For example, for the longest time, women were payed on average a lower salary for the same job held by a man. There was no law requiring this, but it is still unethical and now there is a law that gave companies 4 years to make sure salaries to male and female employees were equal for the same type of work.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> May I respectfully suggest to the moderators that this thread be locked before we degenerate into a nasty anglo-franco war of words?
> 
> M


Moderators? I haven't seen any intervention by moderators on ehmac even with slander like:



> ou mean the culture just to the east of us that wants to be a seperate country.
> 
> I hope to never cross paths with you, or there will be some problems. There are so many things I could say about that incredibly self centered, naive statement, however there would be lots of swears and bashing you involved.
> 
> ...


On most other boards I know that would result in a warning/ban. Either they aren't moderating or they tolerate slander, name-calling and flaming.


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## gastonbuffet (Sep 23, 2004)

taking on the mods now?
you are gonna get it now, le dude!!! 
as much as i want you to go away, i will say that you make a fun read. you certanly know how to push some posters buttons!!!!


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

gastonbuffet said:


> taking on the mods now?
> you are gonna get it now, le dude!!!
> as much as i want you to go away, i will say that you make a fun read. you certanly know how to push some posters buttons!!!!


Haha. Thanks. My head is so hard, you couldn't break it with a pick-axe! beejacon


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## mikeinmontreal (Oct 13, 2005)

MacQuébec, La pomme, je me souviens

They're looking for new members with quality posts.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

mikeinmontreal said:


> MacQuébec, La pomme, je me souviens
> 
> They're looking for new members with quality posts.


Wow. A Mac site in french! Thanks buddy. I'm gonna check that out.


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## EvanPitts (Mar 9, 2007)

Imagine what the thread would be like if the OP wanted a French language mouse from Apple??? :lmao: I'm not even sure what his point was - since Apple did say that they would provide a French language keyboard. I wonder if he'd freak out if he tried to get a CD version of Leopard from Apple...


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Wow. A Mac site in french! Thanks buddy. I'm gonna check that out.


There are some excellent French Mac sites, but of course the majority of them are in France.

The most popular one outside France is probably MacBidouille.


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## chas_m (Dec 2, 2007)

EvanPitts said:


> Imagine what the thread would be like if the OP wanted a French language mouse from Apple??? :lmao:


Zees mouse, it does not go where I want it to ... it goes where IT wants to!! It will not let me plug it in to ze English keyboard and calls ze keyboard a filthy peeg!
 

(I kid the French ... because I love!)


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## Bjornbro (Feb 19, 2000)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Thankfully the community at ehmac doesn't represent well the country as a whole, or else I wouldn't have much basis for my argument. Then again, maybe it does and maybe I'm just an idealist.


It should be duly noted that ehMac had not once, but twice, tried to have a "french Mac subforum" (Le Quartier Français), but the membership didn't support it.


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## HowEver (Jan 11, 2005)

Humour from the land of "Freedom Fries"...

Seriously, every time I see this thread I think, "This is not urgent."

Never cry wolf.




chas_m said:


> Zees mouse, it does not go where I want it to ... it goes where IT wants to!! It will not let me plug it in to ze English keyboard and calls ze keyboard a filthy peeg!
> 
> 
> (I kid the French ... because I love!)


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

Bjornbro said:


> It should be duly noted that ehMac had not once, but twice, tried to have a "french Mac subforum" (Le Quartier Français), but the membership didn't support it.


ehmac.ca with a big canadian flag is not exactly the most inviting for a french speaker... I guess unless the whole site is french it's hard for a french speaker to stumble upon some subsection in french on an english site. It's nice that you tried though, I would have posted there.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Pat McCrotch said:


> ehmac.ca with a big canadian flag is not exactly the most inviting for a french speaker...


Good lord. You'll find a heck of a lot more maple leafs in Quebec than you will here in Alberta. Seriously, you're giving whiny French people a bad name.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

chas_m said:


> Zees mouse, it does not go where I want it to ... it goes where IT wants to!! It will not let me plug it in to ze English keyboard and calls ze keyboard a filthy peeg!
> 
> 
> (I kid the French ... because I love!)


I use a British mouse, but I must plug it in to the left side of my keyboard. Dreadful, I must say, old chap.


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

fjnmusic said:


> Good lord. You'll find a heck of a lot more maple leafs in Quebec than you will here in Alberta. Seriously, you're giving whiny French people a bad name.


What? Are you joking? Isn't it the Calgary Flames that have a huge canadian flag pasted on their arm? If you put a canadian flag anywhere near the Canadiens logo there would be rioting in the streets!

How am I giving whiny people a bad name? I'm just speaking from experience. Trust me. 99% of french canadians won't touch a maple leaf with a ten foot pole it's just the way it is. Hate me for saying the truth if you want to.


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## Guest (May 14, 2008)

Pat McCrotch said:


> ehmac.ca with a big canadian flag is not exactly the most inviting for a french speaker... I guess unless the whole site is french it's hard for a french speaker to stumble upon some subsection in french on an english site. It's nice that you tried though, I would have posted there.


Ok, this is getting ridiculous ... if you don't find the canadian flag inviting then you have geographical issues you need to sort out for yourself. Why not take your arguments to a "french speaking" forum where you can find people that are like-minded and leave us out of the separatist politics?


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## Guest (May 14, 2008)

> How am I giving whiny people a bad name? I'm just speaking from experience. Trust me. 99% of french canadians won't touch a maple leaf with a ten foot pole it's just the way it is. Hate me for saying the truth if you want to.


P.S. Not ALL french speakers have issues with the Canadian flag. Not 99% either. Not even 99% of the french speaking people in Quebec .. on that subject do you even realize that there are a LOT of french speaking Canadians that live outside Quebec?


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Mais bien sur, monsieur. Vive le Canada!


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Y'know, I've always thought Hudson's Bay looks like a duck...


M


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## Jarooda (Jul 18, 2006)

This is more like MY Canada


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## Adrian. (Nov 28, 2007)

Eu......je parle francais couramante et je suis ne a Toronto.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

Pourquoi, Adrian? S'il vous plait?


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

mguertin said:


> P.S. Not ALL french speakers have issues with the Canadian flag. Not 99% either. Not even 99% of the french speaking people in Quebec .. on that subject do you even realize that there are a LOT of french speaking Canadians that live outside Quebec?


Aweille, soyons sérieux. Si tu donnes à qqun un gros T-shirt rouge et blanc avec une feuille d'érable et tu lui dis de se promener à Québec la veille de la Saint-Jean, il va se faire casser la gueule.


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## fjnmusic (Oct 29, 2006)

C'est la vie. Comme ci, comme ca, de temps en temps. Que sera sera.

Je voudrais le poisson avec fromage, s'il vous plait.


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## GlassOnion (Mar 22, 2004)

The problem is that the canadians don’t really know and understand the quebecers and vice-versa. We’re talking about the « 2 solitudes » and that’s really true. Since I'm part of the ehmac forum I met a lot of nice peoples and most of them live outside of Quebec. I think there should be a way to mix the two cultures in a way canadians (including quebecers) could learn about their two main canadian cultures and understand each other. The federal government should finance a program that would allow young canadians to travel or live in another province for a while. My nineteen years old daughter just comes back from Argentina where she travelled for three and a half months there. It was part of her CEGEP (college) studies and a part of the trip was financed by the CEGEP. She learned about the history, the way of life, the culture of these peoples. We should do the same thing here in Canada instead of buying those submarines and military stuff no one needs or want.


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## Guest (May 14, 2008)

Pat McCrotch said:


> Aweille, soyons sérieux. Si tu donnes à qqun un gros T-shirt rouge et blanc avec une feuille d'érable et tu lui dis de se promener à Québec la veille de la Saint-Jean, il va se faire casser la gueule.


LOL, ok, whatever you say. The funny thing is that I have a big canadian flag sewed onto my backpack and have never had issues, ever, and I've been to many more cities and towns in Quebec with it than you probably even know exist.

It's very sad that you are so closed minded about this stuff, you are giving french-speaking people a bad name at this point and you seem to be quite alone in your thinking here. Now, again, please spare us the separatist crap, or at least take it to the "everything else" forum where all the other political discussion happens and let them slay you over there. This no longer has anything to do with "Anything Mac" tptptptp


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## Pat McCrotch (Jun 19, 2006)

GlassOnion said:


> The problem is that the canadians don’t really know and understand the quebecers and vice-versa. We’re talking about the « 2 solitudes » and that’s really true.


I rest my case. I've tried and tried to explain where I'm coming from but I guess it's impossible for most people here to understand what it's like unless you magically switched places for a day. I just thought the average canadian would be more empathetic.

I'm not for separation myself and I don't have any anger towards english Canada; I was just trying to explain why some people from Quebec might be frustrated or what might fuel the desire for sovereignty. Of course, who am I to speak on behalf of my whole province, I'm just relating my personal experiences. I don't know every single person in Quebec and what he or she thinks.

Anyway, like someone said, the discussion has digressed far, far, away from anything Mac and trying to get someone here to see things from the perspective of a francophone seems impossible, so I think it's best to end the conversation and to let everyone keep their prejudices intact.


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## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

GlassOnion said:


> The federal government should finance a program that would allow young canadians to travel or live in another province for a while.


Something like that exists with Canada World Youth (www.cwy-jcm.org). I worked for two years as field staff (and another couple of years in the Atlantic Regional Office). The teams of 14 youth per community (4 months in Canada, 4 months in a developing nation) are as mixed as possible, usually with at least one francophone on each team. The Canadian half of the programme takes place in a community as far as possible (geographically / culturally) from that of the participants' origin - in our case, Cape Breton (Glace Bay) in Year 1, Newfoundland (Clarenville, Bona Vista Peninsula) in Year 2.

Talk about cross-cultural learning! And yes, we had more than our fair share of hard-core teens on both sides of the "solitudes".

M


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