# Grope & Flail's Rob Ford smear campaign...



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

This is what passes for journalism this days? This is "Canada's Newspaper"? 

And, you can't ignore the "oooops" factor where the article has been pulled and Google can't even find it anymore. Would have liked to be a fly on the wall of that boardroom meeting.

I know very little about Rob Ford but I hope he wins the election. Something about the best revenge is to win comes to mind.



> Just when you think journalism can’t sink any further, Stephen Marche pens this pile.
> 
> “The mounds of fat that encircle Rob Ford’s body like great deflated tires of defeat are truly unprecedented in Canadian politics”
> 
> ...


This smacks of the worst yellow journalism I've ever seen.

Nice.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Rob Ford intends to dismantle David Miller's record of mounting layers of "progressivism" that are riding taxpayers like a succubus. All gloves are off now that the left-leaning media is dropping all pretenses of impartiality.


----------



## Flipstar (Nov 7, 2004)

If only Rob Ford had some sort of vision for Toronto.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Flipstar said:


> If only Rob Ford had some sort of vision for Toronto.


The only people who have "visions" for Toronto are asking for big bucks to fund them. A guy running on fiscal accountability will, of necessity, offer fewer grand visions.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

If Rob Ford actually was credible, I'd vote for him.

Despite some of the er, 'yellow', attacks, he has very little to offer besides, "stopping the gravy train", which we're not even sure exactly what that means. And that people from the suburbs are tired of having to deal with those damn streetcars and cyclists in the downtown.

This should be quite the 4 years for downtown toronto should this snake oil salesman actually get elected.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

What's he stoppin' the gravy train with, his mouth?

*rimshot*

Hey hey, I'm here all week! Try the veal!


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

FeXL said:


> This is what passes for journalism this days? This is "Canada's Newspaper"?
> 
> And, you can't ignore the "oooops" factor where the article has been pulled and Google can't even find it anymore. Would have liked to be a fly on the wall of that boardroom meeting.
> 
> ...


To be perfectly honest, I don't find this article "yellow-journalism", it may be in poor taste, but it hardly relies on lack of research and sensationalism [ key criteria for yellow-journalism ] to make it's point. Additionally, again singling out Mr. Ford as an antecedent, while in poor taste, the gist of the piece entailed North American society as a whole .... the key points of: loss of manufacturing jobs, the change in diet, our increasing obesity, and the reference of "fat-cats" in government [ which I believe was the obvious intent of the article ] are of cultural and historical record. 

As the piece was grammatically correct and, to my eyes well written, the only test left, which many may feel wanting, is the ethical one. The fact is was pulled seems to indicate that it failed the last test. However, no one ever pulls anything any more with the net .... and as such maybe the editor should have thought a little longer about this piece. But in politics and theatre, there is no such thing as bad press.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Yup, really disgusting but I'm not surprised. This has been one of the nastiest campaigns I've ever seen here. Not sure which has been worse, The Star or the G&M. The Toronto elites are afraid they may find an empty piggie trough and they're running scared. 

BTW, I went out and voted today. I wanted to make sure my vote for Ford got in. What really surprised me was the voter turnout. It was fairly heavy.. steady stream of people. I'm not sure what this means for the overall outcome but it would appear from today that folks are paying attention and voting instead of sleeping like usual. We'll find out on the 25th.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

adagio, my wife an I are voting tomorrow, we also have already voted in LaSalle [ which was by mail ]. I have noticed that the advance polls are getting busier and busier each election. Maybe it's about time that Toronto and other cities think about easier ways to vote, such as my mail or internet and the day of "the election day" may soon be a thing of the past.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

groovetube said:


> If Rob Ford actually was credible, I'd vote for him.


Ya, if i felt he had an once of intelligence or was at all qualified i might consider it as well.

It's so easy to look at any government agency and say it's wasteful and overly bureaucratic (because they all are) but i imagine it'd be incredibly difficult to significantly whittle down the fat and still be able to run any government office efficentcy. 

It'd take an incredible amount of intelligence, wisdom and foresight to accomplish that,

Rob Ford is devoid of any of those qualities.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Not to derail the thread, but what amazes me in this thing is the lack of vision by the remaining candidates. Rossi at least have some ideas and a vision. I don't live in Toronto, so I can't vote, but the only guy that had any sort of "plan" dropped out. Like the plan or not, at least he had one.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

i-rui said:


> It's so easy to look at any government agency and say it's wasteful and overly bureaucratic (because they all are) but i imagine it'd be incredibly difficult to significantly whittle down the fat and still be able to run any government office efficentcy.


Don't try to get a horse to dance ballet. They were never intended to run efficiently. Shut the agencies down or defund them if you can't achieve that.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

adagio said:


> The Toronto elites


I love that line! The hayseeds versus the city slickers. Very Green Acres.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> I love that line! The hayseeds versus the city slickers. Very Green Acres.


_Green Acres_ must have been way above you... it was never about that. 

But to clarify, the Toronto elites are fat cats who live off the city purse and are largely immune to the havoc they create--because they just vote raises for themselves and their comrades.

There are no hayseeds. Just taxpayers and those who live off them like leeches.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Macfury said:


> Don't try to get a horse to dance ballet. They were never intended to run efficiently. Shut the agencies down or defund them if you can't achieve that.


you still need to run a city, and sometimes inaction costs more in the long run.

If Ford tries to ram through his agenda, city council will stonewall and nothing in the city will get done. That affects everyone (public & private sector) and we could end up with a huge bill to right the ship.

Again, i don't doubt that things COULD be run better at city hall, i just don't think electing the village idiot as mayor is the smart way to go about it.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

i-rui said:


> If Ford tries to ram through his agenda, city council will stonewall and nothing in the city will get done.


I think having nothing get done is preferable to what is being done right now.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Get nothing done? Cool. This is even better than you wanting Ford to get in so he can wreck everything for four years so as to pave the way for some future salvation, delivered unto us by some as yet unknown saint of a politician. Holy nihilism Batman!

____________________________________

"The elites," in common parlance, are merely anyone whose view clashes with ours and with whom we have a problem. Like that other hoary old phrase, "special interest groups," it's code put to use in the service of pitting one supposed group against another. It's a good line to use in ideological warfare. You can use it on the TV, you can sling it in print, you can fire it off in a salvo on the intertubes - in a place like this where factoids and opinions flourish like glorious weeds for which there exists no effective herbicide. It's used by the left against the right, by the right against the left. It's cheap and useful. It's got traction! Great sound bite material - short, brusque, easily digested. Goes well with sneering, but also complements huffing, puffing, eye-rolling and shouting. It's a dish you can dish. No nourishment, sadly, but then again it does produce gas, making rude noises while so doing. The theatrical value alone should not be discounted.

Those damned elites. Yeah, that's it. Let's get 'em!


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

You're not an elite.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

i-rui said:


> Ya, if i felt he had an once of intelligence or was at all qualified i might consider it as well.
> 
> It's so easy to look at any government agency and say it's wasteful and overly bureaucratic (because they all are) but i imagine it'd be incredibly difficult to significantly whittle down the fat and still be able to run any government office efficentcy.
> 
> ...


it's amazing good people are falling for his stupidity. Well, if he gets in, they're all in for a good "what hell were we thinking.."

but unfortunately for some, it really takes a real wake up to see it. I guess Ford just repeating gravy train is enough eh?

amazing.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

The Toronto elites are those who treat the public purse as if it is their own. They wine and dine on the taxpayer's dime.

Miller was elected because he is smooth talking and has nice hair. He had grand ideas, he had a plan. He gets a big fat fail.

I don't think Rob Ford is the greatest but when compared to Smitherman I had no choice. I know Smitherman's record under McGuinty. Disaster. More tax and spend is in the cards if he gets elected. He makes a passing remark about spending but he's a slick politician through and through. Lots of talk, no action. If he gets elected the only beneficiaries will be the multitude of consultants he hires. While they get fat the city continues to crumble. 

A couple of weeks ago city workers were building yet more speed bumps near where I live. In the meantime the road out front is in terrible condition. Priorities are totally screwed in Toronto. The labour and materials used for those useless bumps could easily have been put towards good use in repairing the road. It's stupid crap like this that has folks like myself pissed off.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Max said:


> "The elites," in common parlance, are merely anyone whose view clashes with ours and with whom we have a problem. Like that other hoary old phrase, "special interest groups," it's code put to use in the service of pitting one supposed group against another. It's a good line to use in ideological warfare. You can use it on the TV, you can sling it in print, you can fire it off in a salvo on the intertubes - in a place like this where factoids and opinions flourish like glorious weeds for which there exists no effective herbicide. It's used by the left against the right, by the right against the left. It's cheap and useful. It's got traction! Great sound bite material - short, brusque, easily digested. Goes well with sneering, but also complements huffing, puffing, eye-rolling and shouting. It's a dish you can dish. No nourishment, sadly, but then again it does produce gas, making rude noises while so doing. The theatrical value alone should not be discounted.
> 
> Those damned elites. Yeah, that's it. Let's get 'em!


Precisely. Well put.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> _Green Acres_ must have been way above you... it was never about that.
> 
> But to clarify, the Toronto elites are fat cats who live off the city purse and are largely immune to the havoc they create--because they just vote raises for themselves and their comrades.
> 
> There are no hayseeds. Just taxpayers and those who live off them like leeches.


Metaphor dear boy, metaphor. Or is that way above you?


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> Metaphor dear boy, metaphor. Or is that way above you?


If _Green Acres_ is your metaphor for the situation in Toronto, what can I say? Fantastic work, mrjimmy.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

adagio said:


> The Toronto elites are those who treat the public purse as if it is their own. They wine and dine on the taxpayer's dime.
> 
> Miller was elected because he is smooth talking and has nice hair. He had grand ideas, he had a plan. He gets a big fat fail.
> 
> ...


uhhh, those speed bumps, are NOT useless. On my street where there has been a number of close calls with small children, and adults with construction vehicles who use our side street as the diversion road daily, we need those speed bumps to slow those jackarses down. I can't believe anyone would say they are useless.

And if you're looking for a snake oil salesman with lots of promises and plans, you just voted for him, and if he gets in, he'll enjoy givin' the downtowners what they deserve. It's gonna suck if you don't live in the suburbs real fast, you can pretty much gather that from his own words.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> ...and if he gets in, he'll enjoy givin' the downtowners what they deserve. It's gonna suck if you don't live in the suburbs real fast, you can pretty much gather that from his own words.


That's fine too. The 'burbs have received short shrift from Miller, so now it's their turn to get some attention. If this is the "revenge of the amalgamated," so be it.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> That's fine too. The 'burbs have received short shrift from Miller, so now it's their turn to get some attention. If this is the "revenge of the amalgamated," so be it.


sure and who's totally brilliantly awesome idea was that?

riiiight.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> sure and who's totally brilliantly awesome idea was that?


To give the burbs short shrift? David Miller, for the last many years.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

2 for 2. 

nice.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

adagio said:


> The Toronto elites are those who treat the public purse as if it is their own. They wine and dine on the taxpayer's dime.
> 
> Miller was elected because he is smooth talking and has nice hair. He had grand ideas, he had a plan. He gets a big fat fail.
> 
> ...



While I share your distinct lack of enthusiasm for Smitherman, given his track record working with McGuinty, I have zero confidence that this man Ford is anything but a blustery charlatan who's playing to the rabble and fishing 'em in. I agree with your assessment that priorities are screwed in the GTA, but I also believe we can't afford Ford. The man is a disaster in the brewing. His grandiose talk of making cuts while fixing things up suggests bad math writ large. His audacious plan to cut councillors will be met with stiff opposition; moreover, he lacks the power to do what he promises on his own, but he's not telling us that. He's a shrewd man with good political instincts in certain respects yet he also displays an astounding ability to place his own foot in his mouth. Finally, Rob Ford is no better equipped to reform city government than Miller was. Yet he too is promising to come in and clean things up.

Joey Pants is a decent man but his numbers are negligible. Clearly the Toronto electorate feel that stern measures and strong leadership is needed, but it's also equally apparent that there is a certain polarity shaping up. I am starting to think my choice is between the least of two evils.... one cocky man shouting his promises to fix everything while costing nothing pitted against another man who says too little and appears endlessly furtive, as if he fears the electorate will find yet more reasons to bury his chances on voting day. Some sterling choices there.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Finally, Rob Ford is no better equipped to reform city government than Miller was. Yet he too is promising to come in and clean things up.


I would argue that Miller did re-form Toronto's government.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Would you now. OK then - the light is green; go and argue! Mind the elites though - they tend to roar up from behind.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> I would argue that Miller did re-form Toronto's government.


I'm guessing there's a real knee slapper not far behind here.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Oh no groove, a knee-slapper is far too brutal... our MF is a genteel, discerning sort. He tends to more of a slyly raised eyebrow sort of response - perhaps a light, wry chuckle at best. Outright guffaws are not his cuppa - although it's OK if his pal Rob Ford indulges in them.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Rob Ford my pal? Not hardly. But the only man standing in the way of a left-lib agenda of gentle decay blanketing the city in a warm, gooey mass of death-by-social assistance,


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Ahh yes, Ford the singular hero, riding into town. Cue the moody western music and the long, languid pan across a hazy, arid landscape. Wait, is that a Pale Rider I see, shimmering in the distance?


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Ahh yes, Ford the singular hero, riding into town. Cue the moody western music and the long, languid pan across a hazy, arid landscape. Wait, is that a Pale Rider I see, shimmering in the distance?


And I should wait for a lily, livered, yaller striped scum buzzard like you to choose someone better? Not hardly, pilgrim. Joey Six Pants and Slitherman have already proven they're part of the problem.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Keep in mind I don"t live in Toronto .... wouldn't Smitherman make a better political choice with his ties to the Provincial gvernment?


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I am amused that people see ford as something better. As I said, if I thought he was the real deal, as a homeowner, business owner, I'd vote for him over smitherman in a heartbeat. But he, is a bald faced liar.

Not only, is he NOT going to stop the 'gravy train' (which will amount to simply going after his enemies), he will be incapable of setting down a coherent, sensible plan for what is the biggest city in Canada.
Oh he'll give the downtown elites what they flippin deserve, includin those jerks who ride their bicycles and even worse the real elitists who ride the streetcars (he'll get'im real gooood yeah...) but he's smart enough that all he has to do is mouth the words 'cut spending' and like the pied piper of the gullible, he is laughing. All the way to a new job, and the ability to rub any of those who called him a fat **'s noses in it with tax payers dollars.

No thanks.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Rps said:


> Keep in mind I don"t live in Toronto .... wouldn't Smitherman make a better political choice with his ties to the Provincial gvernment?


Smitherman was involved with one of Ontario's largest boondoggles, the E-Health scandal. 
His association with the provincial government is a liability.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Smitherman was involved with one of Ontario's largest boondoggles, the E-Health scandal.
> His association with the provincial government is a liability.


We have a federal government who can't spend billions and billions of our dollars fast enough, yet somehow, that isn't a liability, all I see are excuses and justifications. Peppered with 'the other guy did it too'.

funny how this works eh. Somehow, we're to believe that simply because someone parrots 'cut spending' suddenly they're a capable candidate.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Your comment is a non sequitur, groove.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> And I should wait for a lily, livered, yaller striped scum buzzard like you to choose someone better? Not hardly, pilgrim. Joey Six Pants and Slitherman have already proven they're part of the problem.


Yaller _and_ lily livered? Hmmm.... I think you've been dosing yourself with Ford's medicine. Hyperbole and flatulent repetition is the gist of his brave new campaign. If you think Ford will do anything but establish himself as the next new kingpin entitled to his entitlements, surrounded by a cozy new cabal of inside cronies, I have a bridge to sell you. But I think you know different; you're simply twitching to that devilish nihilist spasm.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Yaller _and_ lily livered? Hmmm.... I think you've been dosing yourself with Ford's medicine. Hyperbole and flatulent repetition is the gist of his brave new campaign. If you think Ford will do anything but establish himself as the next new kingpin entitled to his entitlements, surrounded by a cozy new cabal of inside cronies, I have a bridge to sell you. But I think you know different; you're simply twitching to that devilish nihilist spasm.


You've already turned down an offer to dance to Smitherman's reedy flute.

So sing a song of Six Pants. At least these are cronies you've grown comfortable with.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Your comment is a non sequitur, groove.


Of course, you would say this. Which is precisely the point of my post.

Sometimes I guess, it's better to speak simply, and say, you're a hypocrite. Pure and simple.



Max said:


> Yaller _and_ lily livered? Hmmm.... I think you've been dosing yourself with Ford's medicine. Hyperbole and flatulent repetition is the gist of his brave new campaign. If you think Ford will do anything but establish himself as the next new kingpin entitled to his entitlements, surrounded by a cozy new cabal of inside cronies, I have a bridge to sell you. But I think you know different; you're simply twitching to that devilish nihilist spasm.


I think we'll be treated with an eyebrow raising I know you are but what am I.

EDIT: oops. Too late.


----------



## used to be jwoodget (Aug 22, 2002)

I can see the base appeal of Rob Ford - it’s the appeal of the frustrated voter who is experiencing increasing utility bills and decreasing services while their own jobs are teetering on the edge. People are hurting but I also hope they dig a little deeper and don't just register a protest vote for Ford. His plan to cut council by half sounds great - until you realise he needs the majority of council to actually vote to eliminate their own jobs. Ditto the plan to use the transit plan funds for other things - except that those are provincial and federal dollars and are not the mayors to play with. It goes on - cut taxes but preserve services. It doesn't add up. Rob Ford is a popularist who tells people what they want to hear. All politicians do this of course, but, like Sarah Palin, he is running on voter discontent. It's easy to vent anger. It's another thing to convert that anger into meaningful and realistic change.

George Smitherman certainly has his own baggage and was once known as furious George. His handling of the eHealth file is nothing to be proud of (although it went back long before his time as Minister).

The article in the Globe about his weight was both awful and indefensible. Whatever your preference, make sure you vote.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Of course, you would say this. Which is precisely the point of my post.
> 
> Sometimes I guess, it's better to speak simply, and say, you're a hypocrite. Pure and simple.
> 
> ...


You must be running the posts through a translation program. Your responses are so off-kilter it's not even funny.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> You must be running the posts through a translation program. Your responses are so off-kilter it's not even funny.


Good work macfury. It doesn't take much to get you to pull your usual la la la la la I can't heeeear you routine.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Good work macfury. It doesn't take much to get you to pull your usual la la la la la I can't heeeear you routine.


We can heeeeeear, you... but you seem to be in another thread.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> So sing a song of Six Pants. At least these are cronies you've grown comfortable with.


Yet here you are, salivating at the thought of dancing with Ford. I guess you know your toes will be crushed, but what of it? You wring your hands and hope he'll be whispering sweet libertarian nothings in your ear. Bliss!


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

careful, you're really edging towards 'non sequitur' on that one.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Yet here you are, salivating at the thought of dancing with Ford. I guess you know your toes will be crushed, but what of it? You wring your hands and hope he'll be whispering sweet libertarian nothings in your ear. Bliss!


I hope Ford crushes all toes equally. No wallflowers in the Ford administration.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

There's that cheerful nihilism again. Must be an exotic form of libertarianism. Although I'm intrigued by your insistence on equality of toe steppage; more than a sniff of socialism there. Curiouser and curiouser.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> There's that cheerful nihilism again. Must be an exotic form of libertarianism. Although I'm intrigued by your insistence on equality of toe steppage; more than a sniff of socialism there. Curiouser and curiouser.


Socialism is not egalitarianism. 

But you're right, I am a cheerful nihilist. Nooooooo future... eh, mate!?


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

That's all you can come up with? Socialism is not egalitarianism? For the record, can we also get your views on antidisestablishmentarianism?

The idea of you referencing the Sex Pistols gives me the willies. _Johnny Libertarian Rotten_... oh yeah, there's a real ring to that.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> For the record, can we also get your views on antidisestablishmentarianism?


If nominated, I will not disestablish. If elected to disestablish, I will not serve.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

That's the most sense I've seen out of you in quite a few posts. I consider myself reassured.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Macfury said:


> Socialism is not egalitarianism.
> 
> But you're right, I am a cheerful nihilist. Nooooooo future... eh, mate!?


I didn't know that Art Egalitarian was a socialist.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> If _Green Acres_ is your metaphor for the situation in Toronto, what can I say? Fantastic work, mrjimmy.


The imagery of Lisa and Eb (or insert other hayseed character here) fit the imagined class struggle between the everyman and the 'elites' quite nicely. Over the top imagery for an over the top idea. Now enough of explaining myself to you MF.

Rob Ford's claim to fame, a parlour trick of having zero operating expenses, when applied to running the largest City in Canada will be a sight to behold. People truly deserve the person they vote for, especially when the services they treasure will fall to Ford's ham-fisted ways. It will certainly be good theatre but I fear the ticket price is far too high.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

mrjimmy said:


> The imagery of Lisa and Eb (or insert other hayseed character here) fit the imagined class struggle between the everyman and the 'elites' quite nicely. Over the top imagery for an over the top idea. Now enough of explaining myself to you MF.
> 
> *Rob Ford's claim to fame, a parlour trick of having zero operating expenses, when applied to running the largest City in Canada will be a sight to behold. People truly deserve the person they vote for, especially when the services they treasure will fall to Ford's ham-fisted ways. It will certainly be good theatre but I fear the ticket price is far too high.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> you're right. If it wasn't for the high price to be paid, it would be interesting to watch. In a slow motion car accident kinda way.


----------



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> If nominated, I will not disestablish. If elected to disestablish, I will not serve.


Good for you, Macfury. Macfury's marching through Toronto (with apologies to Sherman's march through Georgia and statement of political non-ambition). Paix, mon ami.

YouTube - Marching Through Georgia

Keep in mind that I lived in Georgia for five years, and still am able to vote there in state and federal elections. Thus, to be fair .......

YouTube - Jay Ungar - Marching Through Georgia

YouTube - William T. Sherman

"War is hell." William T. Sherman


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> The imagery of Lisa and Eb (or insert other hayseed character here) fit the imagined class struggle between the everyman and the 'elites' quite nicely. Over the top imagery for an over the top idea. Now enough of explaining myself to you MF.


There was no such struggle on _Green Acres_. The show traded on the inability of city lawyer Oliver Douglas to comprehend the workings of Hooterville, which everyone in town understood--including his citified wife. He embraced the rural lifestyle but simply couldn't penetrate its culture. 



mrjimmy said:


> Rob Ford's claim to fame, a parlour trick of having zero operating expenses, when applied to running the largest City in Canada will be a sight to behold. People truly deserve the person they vote for, especially when the services they treasure will fall to Ford's ham-fisted ways.


I am voting for him BECAUSE I want the services to fall. Other voters understand this as well. The outrageous number of non-essential services offered in the city by overpaid staff is a large part of its problem.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

"The outrageous number of non-essential services offered in the city by overpaid staff is a large part of its problem."
MacFury, I wouldn't limit this to the non-essential services only, there are essential services offered by overpaid staff as well. I think the days of the "golden teat" are over and some rational review of what a service should cost is in order. While the current trend seems to be to "privatize" we need to step back and look at the services we really want and determine what manner makes sense to pay for them. From what I have read neither candidate outlines how costs are to be cut and that is a problem for voters. I don't live in Toronto, but when I was looking to buy a home there I was shocked at the tax rate vs services supplied .... very expensive and I wonder if the cost is justified.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I see the unions have come out and publicly endorsed Smitherman. He owes a lot of favours now. Glad I voted for Ford. I'll be happy if Rob does one single thing if elected... toss the garbage workers out on their arse and contract out.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Rps said:


> "The outrageous number of non-essential services offered in the city by overpaid staff is a large part of its problem."
> MacFury, I wouldn't limit this to the non-essential services only, there are essential services offered by overpaid staff as well. I think the days of the "golden teat" are over and some rational review of what a service should cost is in order. While the current trend seems to be to "privatize" we need to step back and look at the services we really want and determine what manner makes sense to pay for them. From what I have read neither candidate outlines how costs are to be cut and that is a problem for voters. I don't live in Toronto, but when I was looking to buy a home there I was shocked at the tax rate vs services supplied .... very expensive and I wonder if the cost is justified.


I doubt very much that anyone will take on the city unions, except Ford. 

I have acquaintances who work for the city and have had some horrific insights into staff inactivity and the way money is wasted. Why waste money on a City Hall green roof, when you're not even plowing the roads on time? Spending five years on roadwork for a strip of Bloor Street near Yonge is insane. I was shocked when the city paid "artisans" money to create fashionable bike posts and began an expensive reworking of the City Hall grounds for no other reason than to make it look nicer. Do that when the city is running a surplus.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Right, so let me get this straight. You don't like the way that a city is run, so you vote in an obese, woman-beating, alcoholic, drug addict, rage-a-holic so that things change?

Not that he's any of those things, but I'm pretty sure that if he was a "lefty" candidate, the righties would be screaming bloody murder and running a smear of their own.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I had a canvasser supporting Smitherman come to my front door and say exactly those things, Jawknee.



jawknee said:


> Right, so let me get this straight. You don't like the way that a city is run, so you vote in an obese, woman-beating, alcoholic, drug addict, rage-a-holic so that things change?
> 
> Not that he's any of those things, but I'm pretty sure that if he was a "lefty" candidate, the righties would be screaming bloody murder and running a smear of their own.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> I had a canvasser supporting Smitherman come to my front door and say exactly those things, Jawknee.


ew

not a reason to vote for that dick (smitherman) but still...


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

For the record, he didn't say Ford was fat.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> For the record, he didn't say Ford was fat.


That's a well established fact.

My mind keeps drifting back to steamrollers. *ouch*
YouTube - Bob and Doug McKenzie - Strange Brew Clip #16


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Ford is a friend to blubber.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Ford is a friend to blubber.


Personal blubber, perhaps, but not the blubber in city budgets.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well yeah, I mean, when you drive downtown from suburbia, you can't get anywhere with all these elitists riding streetcars and bicycles and stuff everywhere. Screw them elitists and their streetcars. Let's wipe it all clean, and spend some money on the suburbs.

Hmmm. How do we convince these gullible downtowners it's in their best interest.

cut taxes! woooo! more money for everybody!!

They fall for it everytime. Enjoy your new accountability and 'fiscal conservatism'. It always seems to work so well.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Enjoy your new accountability and 'fiscal conservatism'.


Thanks!


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

there's one born every minute they say.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

So I'm listening to the radio in my car and Doug Holyday says that since Miller took office the number of city workers has increased by 10,000.... that's 10 effing thousand! Did anyone see an increase in services, efficiency, smaller wait times? Thought not. No wonder the city is broke.

That's also 10,000 more CUPEs to vote for some idiot who will not challenge the status quo.

I'll bet you that if the new Mayor got rid of these 10,000 new-hires, no one in Toronto would notice a difference. LOL

Tranna is pooched, good luck to you my friends.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Obviously many folks are cool with the status quo since that's exactly what they'll get with all certainty if Smitherman gets elected. He owes a LOT of favours now for those labour endorsements. I wonder what promises he gave them? I shudder at the thought.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well one good response to the unions right now, is, screw me over and the next time, you will get ford.

Truthfully, if ford gets in, and tries to dig in his heels, this ain't going to be a very pleasant place to live for a while. Mark my words.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Meanwhile, Ford looks like he's going to get in. I suppose it's inevitable. The implosion of expectations from his breathless fans will be a faint silver lining to an otherwise dark cloud. 

Union smasher, fiscal magician, council shrinker, tough talker, fat enabler... oh, he's going to be a star.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

my only solace is pissin myself laughing at everyone who voted for him.

you gotta give me that much.

because I'll be driving my garbage to kirkland lake every week, and walking to work.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

there's a helluva lotta buffets in these parts. metaphorically and literally.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

What's shocking but not at all surprising is how personal attacks against Ford and Pantalone about their personal appearance are cool with you folks. Says a lot about the character of some people. Neither Rob nor Joe have stooped so low. If either of these guys mentioned Smitherman's gayness you'd all be gasping in shock, and rightly so, yet you not only laugh but repeat his remarks about Ford's weight. Apparently Joe has short legs, according to Smitherman. I guess this is okay too?

I don't fall into Pantalone's camp politically but I give him high marks for his integrity. If Ford wasn't running he'd have my vote. I'd rather vote for someone who stands by their beliefs and doesn't engage in personal attacks about their opponents' appearance than a slick smooth talking politician who will say anything and stoop to any method to get elected.

Miller was a polished, smooth talking salesman and look what happened there? Nice hair and a sweet talker has got this city in a fiscal mess.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Ford not stooping so low?

ha ha ha ha ha. riiiiight. If only he could...
lol...


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

adagio said:


> What's shocking but not at all surprising is how personal attacks against Ford and Pantalone about their personal appearance are cool with you folks. Says a lot about the character of some people. Neither Rob nor Joe have stooped so low. If either of these guys mentioned Smitherman's gayness you'd all be gasping in shock, and rightly so, yet you not only laugh but repeat his remarks about Ford's weight. Apparently Joe has short legs, according to Smitherman. I guess this is okay too?


+1. Pantalone is a decent guy who I happen to disagree with. Ford is a class act beside that unctuous snake, Smitherman.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

'ceptin' when he's dissin the orientals that work like dogs. Or that cyclists are to blame for their deaths.

yeah a real class act. Perfect for a city like Toronto.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

It's politics. Pretty much all tactics are OK because it's never been a clean game. I'm sure there's a segment of people who aren't comfortable with homosexuality and who won't be voting for Smitherman but won't come outright and say it - political correctness holds them back. I look at Ford's physical appearance and his florid, bursting-at-the-seams manner and compare that to his hostile stance regarding cyclists in this city and I draw connections... the man would benefit from getting on a bike once in awhile. It's also clear that he hasn't a clue about biking in the city and what cyclists are up against, or how it's actually good to get more people out on bikes. He talks about cleaning up council and shooing the fatcats, but looks like a stereotypical fatcat himself - a steak dinner and two helpings of dessert kinda guy. If he's going to make an issue of certain things he's going to have to be able to take the heat... it comes with the territory.

Joey Pants is a nice fellow I'm sure but the fact that he won't deliver tough remarks is also one of his liabilities. The electorate expects a certain amount of pugnaciousness - more so than ever, in this round of elections at least. Ford has that quality in spades and that's his appeal to his fans: the tough talker who calls it like it is (even when it's not).

It's going to be a close election. Wonder how many people will come out to vote this time around; it's usually such a sad spectacle. Too many of us don't actually believe in the idea of participatory democracy.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> 'ceptin' when he's dissin the orientals that work like dogs. Or that cyclists are to blame for their deaths.
> 
> yeah a real class act. Perfect for a city like Toronto.


Some cyclists ARE to blame for their own deaths, as are some motorists to blame for cyclists' death.

The context of Ford's comments on Asian workers was that they were to be admired for their work ethic. If you want to slag him for using the term "Oriental," go ahead. It wasn't a big deal to many of his supporters of Asian descent.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Ah biking in Toronto...

Have a look at this and do watch till the end. It fits soooo many threads currently on ehMac. 

Biking with 5D Mark II on Vimeo


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

LOL! I can't wait to watch it. Knowing your inclinations, I'm guessing it will not be flattering to cyclists.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Some cyclists ARE to blame for their own deaths, as are some motorists to blame for cyclists' death.


right and his "heart bleeds for them" as does mine for his physical appearance, which "at the end of the day, is his own fault"

edit: except for in this case it *actually* is.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I was right - what a surprise! Mr. Kamikaze cylist/wannabe filmmaker/stuntman really _reprazented_ for Toronto cyclists, didn't he! That's precisely the kind of rider Ford is rightfully angry at. Riders like him don't do cycling any favours. He's likely quite young, given the 'Look at me! I'm immortal!" vibe he's emanating.

Great video. That camera is a nice piece of tech. Nice how a camera held at that level gives you a greater sense of speed. I found myself actually waiting for the fellow to be doored.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Well, I saw the debates on CP24 last night. It was the first one I saw and I'm left with the impression that Ford is a smug insincere bully. Smitherman is more a kin to Clinton as a Mr. Teflon .... almost Dalton like. Pantalone seems to be the only one who had any sort of "class" if that is the word. While Smitherman may be a back room boy, there is no question that Pantalone is as well. The difference, as least in my eyes, is that he would be able to work with people. Smitherman looks like the type who would split working groups and Ford would out right smash them in a my way or no way. It was obvious to me that Pantalone thinks Ford has it and was building bridges. Ford strikes me as a "line my pockets" type of guy and could easily have been the Governor of Louisiana in the 30s, If you have ever watch the HBO programme Broadwalk Empire, that's Smitherman. Pantalone strikes me as Jimmy Carter, kind, lots of integrity, but unable to make a tough decision, However, if I lived in TO, I would vote for Pantalone ..... I go for bridge builders every time.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

Max said:


> I was right - what a surprise! Mr. Kamikaze cylist/wannabe filmmaker/stuntman really _reprazented_ for Toronto cyclists, didn't he! That's precisely the kind of rider Ford is rightfully angry at. Riders like him don't do cycling any favours. He's likely quite young, given the 'Look at me! I'm immortal!" vibe he's emanating.
> 
> Great video. That camera is a nice piece of tech. Nice how a camera held at that level gives you a greater sense of speed. I found myself actually waiting for the fellow to be doored.


Actually I enjoyed the video and his skill, although I would never attempt anything like that. Too chicken with the quality of drivers in this city.

He's not that young and is a photo blogger celebrity in this town.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I stand corrected. He's a speed demon, then. Yeah, a good demonstration of the camera's abilities, and a nice look at downtown TO from a rider's perspective.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jawknee said:


> right and his "heart bleeds for them" as does mine for his physical appearance, which "at the end of the day, is his own fault"
> 
> edit: except for in this case it *actually* is.


When it's your fault, its your fault--bad bicyclist, or overeater.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Some cyclists ARE to blame for their own deaths, as are some motorists to blame for cyclists' death.
> 
> The context of Ford's comments on Asian workers was that they were to be admired for their work ethic. If you want to slag him for using the term "Oriental," go ahead. It wasn't a big deal to many of his supporters of Asian descent.


I never said he meant it to be offensive or not.

Obviously my point here is that I would think being mayor or a big city like Toronto would require at least some competence in communication skills.

Rob Ford has quite clearly demonstrated he has none.


----------



## kps (May 4, 2003)

groovetube said:


> Obviously my point here is that I would think being mayor or a big city like Toronto would require at least some competence in communication skills.
> 
> Rob Ford has quite clearly demonstrated he has none.


Sadly, you have a point. I'd like to see him as the mayor rather than Smitherman, but I fear he will be a bigger embarrassment to Tranna than good 'ol Mel Lastman was.


----------



## Britnell (Jan 4, 2002)

I will be voting for Ford. I would much rather have him as mayor, than as a cabinet minister. If he fails in his attempt at City Hall, he will run for the Hudak Conservatives. Since he will probably be the only member in the PC caucus from Toronto, you can bet your tush that he will land in cabinet.

The race for mayor is very thin this time out. The DropOuts obviously did not have the brights or money to run a credible campaign. Smitherman is a leftist disaster that has embraced fiscal responsibility only because he sees which way the wind is blowing at the moment. Furious George is a terrible administrator.

Ford is not an intellectual giant, but he has tapped into the anger that citizens have at the moment at city hall and the mismanagement. Taxes up but no one seems to see any increase in services. The garbage strike really showed just what an ass Miller truly is, and the voters are tired of such games. People see Ford as well meaning and as someone that will get spending under control.

If Ford becomes mayor, a year from now he will probably be universally hated for his inability to change the dominant culture at City Hall.


----------



## Aurora (Sep 25, 2001)

I worry about Smitherman getting in. As you can see, I am from the Ottawa area and the shoe in here is Jim Watson.That's all we need. Two ex liberal cabinet members in charge of Ontario's biggest cities with Mcguinty pulling the strings.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Agreed with some of what Britnell says, particularly his contention that the race has been woefully thin on inspiring leaders and that Ford will not be able to appease public wrath once people realize he can't walk on water.

However, though I can't say I'm elated by the prospect, I'm hoping Smitherman takes it. He may be more naturally left but it's good he at least comprehends that the public is angry about waste and council's stonewalling and spectacle. As for Ford, should he get in, ought to savour the victory and ensuing honeymoon - because once the electorate sees that he can't go tackle the council singlehandedly and win, he'll be facing some brutal pressure from those who supported him. He may mean well but he's a bull in a china shop.

Either way, it ain't going to be pretty.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> As for Ford, should he get in, ought to savour the victory and ensuing honeymoon - because once the electorate sees that he can't go tackle the council singlehandedly and win, he'll be facing some brutal pressure from those who supported him. He may mean well but he's a bull in a china shop.


Ford needs merely to consistently push his agenda and then point out which city councilors are failing the city by opposing him. The anger will be turned to council.

George "Adult Diapers" Smitherman would bring the same talents that brought us the Ontario Green Energy Program and E-Health to bear on the fortunes of the city... but at least he understands that we don't like that, eh Max?


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Max said:


> Agreed with some of what Britnell says, particularly his contention that the race has been woefully thin on inspiring leaders and that Ford will not be able to appease public wrath once people realize he can't walk on water.
> 
> However, though I can't say I'm elated by the prospect, I'm hoping Smitherman takes it. He may be more naturally left but it's good he at least comprehends that the public is angry about waste and council's stonewalling and spectacle. As for Ford, should he get in, ought to savour the victory and ensuing honeymoon - because once the electorate sees that he can't go tackle the council singlehandedly and win, he'll be facing some brutal pressure from those who supported him. He may mean well but he's a bull in a china shop.
> 
> Either way, it ain't going to be pretty.


yep. I don't think the blind can see this coming.

It'll be like a really bad hangover, and the majority of those who voted for him (less the "I'll vote for anything that walks like a right winger crowd...) will dump his fat arse before the next election.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

groovetube said:


> yep. I don't think the blind can see this coming.
> 
> It'll be like a really bad hangover, and the majority of those who voted for him (less the "I'll vote for anything that walks like a right winger crowd...) will dump his fat arse before the next election.


I'm hoping that those voting with their heart for Pants will realize, with pencil in hand that he stands no chance of winning and that a vote for him is a vote for 'The Bull'.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Same here, mrjimmy.

MF: Ford may realize, only too late, that trying to highlight which councillors oppose Ford's grand plans will serve well to make him new enemies, only too keen to undermine him. It should be a great series of battles. Not saying it's something that Ford can't win, but it will be an uphill struggle and he's bound to be nicely bloodied. Too, I note your continued insistence on attaching "Adult Diapers" to Smitherman's name... lovely to see you confidently take the high road.

Should Ford get in, he'll in time realize that it's a whole new game when you're mayor. To an extent he will be obliged to change his brash, confrontational style if only to get some real work done. Right now he's playing to the cameras and pundits, bloggers and voters... and no one else does it like him. May he enjoy it while he can.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Speaking of taking the high road...

Nasty campaign signs pop up throughout GTA - thestar.com


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

either way, it doesn't look pleasant for Toronto.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Ahh, but sometimes a city gets what it deserves. I'm thinking here of the historically low voter turnout for this sort of thing... if you snooze, you lose!


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> yep. I don't think the blind can see this coming.


They're not blind and they know what's coming--you just don't happen to like it.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

No, as a home owner, and a business owner, I don't like it one bit, in either result.

I guess we'll revisit this down the road.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Too, I note your continued insistence on attaching "Adult Diapers" to Smitherman's name... lovely to see you confidently take the high road.


You do recall the reason for the reference, I hope?

But again, I never considered politics a gentleman's game, and I believe that elections should be all-out battles, not croquet matches. Mud-slinging is fair game, provided the mud is legit.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> No, as a home owner, and a business owner, I don't like it one bit, in either result.
> 
> I guess we'll revisit this down the road.


As a home owner and a business owner I like it. Perhaps I'll just wind up liking it and you'll wind up hating it. Did you enjoy the Miller era? I've hated it.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Different reference points. I guess you've never seen the kinds of croquet matches I have... they tend to get real ugly. A mallet is an excellent weapon when swung in a great arc, ending against a skull.

In any case, this election has certainly been a battle. I'm very happy it's almost over. Then the tawdry drama can end - with a fresh new one to replace it.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I liked miller far more than lastman. Miller at least, had a vision for Toronto and plans he executed (well, or badly depending projects and points of view).

I don't see ford as having any kind of vision for toronto and he won't accomplish most of his yelling, and I really really distrust smitherman.

What's to like if you're sane?


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> As a home owner and a business owner I like it. Perhaps I'll just wind up liking it and you'll wind up hating it. Did you enjoy the Miller era? I've hated it.


You should perhaps read this:

Face it, Torontonians: Miller time was good - thestar.com


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Let me make a guess: the messenger will be shot at.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Let me make a guess: the messenger will be shot at.


Nope. The messenger is simply wrong.It's all about the way you package the information:


> The critics say Toronto’s taxes are too high; Toronto’s residential taxes are the lowest in the GTA.


The other cities in the GTA have considerable greenfield development while Toronto has a mature infrastructure and should have an economy of scale. Their taxes _should_ be higher. Likewise, Toronto simply makes formerly legal parking illegal, makes citizens pay higher user fees, jacks up water and utility bills, and raises land transfer fees so it can claim it isn't raising taxes.

Most of the list can be deconstructed in this fashion.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Nope. The messenger is simply wrong.It's all about the way you package the information:
> 
> 
> The other cities in the GTA have considerable greenfield development while Toronto has a mature infrastructure and should have an economy of scale. Their taxes _should_ be higher. Likewise, Toronto simply makes formerly legal parking illegal, makes citizens pay higher user fees, jacks up water and utility bills, and raises land transfer fees so it can claim it isn't raising taxes.
> ...


Please, deconstruct more.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> Please, deconstruct more.





> In 2003, the year before Miller was elected, the City of Toronto spent $109 million more than it raised. And the deficit would have been even higher had the city not transferred $615 million — more than 9 per cent of its budget — from non-capital reserves. In 2008, the city ran a surplus of $81 million, and depended on transfers from reserves for only 2 per cent of its budget.
> 
> The critics say Toronto’s taxes are too high; Toronto’s residential taxes are the lowest in the GTA.


In addition to what I said earlier, Toronto has the GTA's highest industrial-commercial taxes.



> They say Toronto’s expenditures are out of control; Toronto’s expenditures have increased at a lower rate since 2003 than have local expenditures in the rest of the province.


They should be lower through economies of scale and mature infrastructure. However, it's often the type of wasteful things Miller spent on that defines his expenditures as out of control.



> Yes, spending is up, because services were improved after a decade of neglect. *But the city raised the revenue it needed to pay for them*.


The thief was hungry, but he stole enough money to feed himself.



> Current and wannabe federal and provincial politicians taking pot shots at the city’s finances might reflect on that fact, and on the fact that in the teeth of the recession Toronto has balanced its budget every year, before they open their mouths.


They're mostly taking potshots at Toronto's grotesque mismanagement of the TTC when Miller comes begging.



> The city’s finances are in such poor shape that the 2011 fiscal plan of every one of the candidates for mayor starts with a description of what they’d do with the surplus expected at the end of 2010.


Giving it back to taxpayers is a great start.



> The critics seem to forget what civic Toronto was like in 2003. Miller’s campaign symbol wasn’t a broom for nothing. Toronto’s streets were dirty. And so was its politics.
> 
> Years of deferred maintenance had made their mark, and when the streets got dirty, they stayed that way because there weren’t enough people to clean them.


I have seen no improvement in this area. During the summer city waste containers are overflowing with litter. During the winter, the underside of my car has taken a beating from snow and ice left for days or weeks on anything but the major thoroughfares.



> On the political front, corruption was the word of the day; and not the pretend corruption that regularly gets thrown around in the overheated shouting matches that pass for debate this year. The real kind, with public inquiries and findings of fault and police investigations.


???



> In 2003, waterfront revitalization was an endless series of empty photo ops. Today there’s a lot happening on the waterfront, from the new Corus Entertainment building to a spectacular new park. The eastern end of the Gardiner Expressway has been cleaned up. The Don Lands, a political football since the Peterson years, are humming with activity.


Glass tower hell blocking the view of the lake. Nice going Miller. Sweetheart deals for businesses taking on the Don Lands. 



> The Distillery District, launched in 2003, has emerged as a cultural gem.


Agreed it is a gem. Thank Cityscape Holdings Inc. for that.



> Yonge and Dundas Square has been transformed from an ugly duckling into a vibrant hub in the downtown.


Hideous.



> After years of fruitless hand-wringing about the state of the social housing Toronto inherited in the Harris government’s download, spectacular redevelopment projects are under way at Regent Park and well into the planning stages at Lawrence Heights.


Subsidized housing is all about subsidizing a cheap labour force for businesses hiring low-paid workers.



> After decades of denial about troubled communities in Toronto’s inner suburbs, a concerted focus on those vulnerable neighbourhoods, in partnership with the United Way and other agencies, is beginning to pay off.


Specifics please? I see no improvement here.



> After decades of neglect, we are finally investing in Toronto’s vital public infrastructure. Construction delays may drive everybody crazy today, but the renewal is long overdue, and it will pay off for decades into the future.


This has been underway since the 1990s. When the cost of broken pipes exceeds the cost of fixing them, they are fixed. Five years to redevelop a small stretch of Bloor street near Yonge? Well done, Mr.Miller!



> We’re getting ready to welcome the Americas to our city, in the 2015 Pan American Games.


I'm sure taxpayers will be left holding the bill as they have in almost every major sporting event held in a major city in the past three decades.



> Toronto hadn’t had a coherent plan for improving public transit in the city since the mid-1970s. Transit City isn’t just a plan; it is a plan with a funding commitment from the provincial government that’s already under way.


What is coherent about the plan now? Toronto simply tapped the province to help save its ill managed system. 



> Ten years ago, Toronto was a laughing stock as the city that had to call in the army to get rid of a snowfall.


True. But only for that one incident.



> Today, the city is recognized around the world as a leader in the effort to address the issues of air and water pollution and global warming. Once again, we are learning from the world; once again, the world is coming to us to learn.


Toronto scarcely addresses air and water pollution as these are largely regulated at a higher level. Global warming? Don't make me laugh.



> But there’s no question that Toronto under Miller’s leadership passes the Ronald Reagan test — it’s a much better place than it was when he was elected.


No.



> Hugh Mackenzie is a Toronto-based economist.


He is a Research Associate of the (left wing) Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives and it's no surprise that he supports his NDP croney, Miller.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

With Reservations, George Smitherman for Mayor - Torontoist

just about sums it up.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

i-rui said:


> With Reservations, George Smitherman for Mayor - Torontoist
> 
> just about sums it up.


It sums it up for you. But Smitherman doesn't represent "what I value most."



> Ford ... doesn't think we can afford waterfront development, and has suggested he'd like to pull funding for street festivals like Pride and Caribana.


Excellent!



> ...he also wouldn't succeed in destroying many of the things we (_The Torontoist_) hold dear.


Better and better!



> The major complaints against Smitherman: he wasted millions of taxpayer dollars by mismanaging eHealth, he negotiated an enormous sole-source deal with Samsung while energy minister, he leads by bullying rather than consensus. These are all very real black marks. But they are, at the least, black marks incurred while trying to build, to pursue new policies.


This has got to be the worst endorsement I have read in some time. The man bathes in corruption and malfeasance, but at least he is on the way to somewhere while he does so.



> Our biggest objection to Ford is this: he thinks of us as nothing more than taxpayers.


At least he thinks of us as taxpayers. Miller has forgotten the suffering he's visited upon Torontonians with his confiscatory tax policies. If he had imagined for a moment that there were actually taxpayers funding his mess, he might have made it bearable for the tax base.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Time to get out and vote. Anyone who doesn't understand that saying “Those Oriental people work like dogs. … They’re slowly taking over.” isn't acceptable doesn't deserve to be the mayor and representative of this city. Period.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Time to get out and vote. Anyone who doesn't understand that saying “Those Oriental people work like dogs. … They’re slowly taking over.” isn't acceptable doesn't deserve to be the mayor and representative of this city. Period.


Anyone who understands that Rob Ford was praising the Asian work ethic will vote without worrying about groovetube's wailing and wringing of hands.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm simply pointing out something very basic macfury. 

You either get it, or you don't.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

groovetube said:


> I'm simply pointing out something very basic macfury.
> 
> You either get it, or you don't.


You forgot mention that he's a rage-a-holic, woman beating, drunk driving, drug addict as well.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

shhh you'll give MF a coronary.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> shhh you'll give MF a coronary.


Watching you guys flailing in impotent rage won't give me a coronary.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Watching you guys flailing in impotent rage won't give me a coronary.


"impotent rage" might explain your man's wife-beating ways.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jawknee said:


> "impotent rage" might explain your man's wife-beating ways.


Did he beat his wife?


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Did he beat his wife?


She "dropped the charges" and we all know that battered women never drop the charges against their spouses.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jawknee said:


> She "dropped the charges" and we all know that battered women never drop the charges against their spouses.


Both Ford and his wife called police during their argument. The Police have a zero discretion policy on answering domestic dispute calls. After police arrived, Ford was given full custody of their two children. There is more to that story than you or I know. Don't speculate and call it fact.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Both Ford and his wife called police during their argument. The Police have a zero discretion policy on answering domestic dispute calls. After police arrived, Ford was given full custody of their two children. There is more to that story than you or I know. Don't speculate and call it fact.


ok sure, we'll put a "*" beside that one with your disclaimer.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

just got back from cancelling macfury's vote.

I was really surprised. Never, in all the years I've voted here, have I ever seen such huge HUGE lineups, and so many young people out voting.

Regardless of the results, that's a good thing.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Very large turnout in my voting place, too. Never seen anything like it. Easily triple the usual wait time, and the line snaked through the building like a freakin' conga line. My wife cautions me that it may just have been the time of day but all the anecdotal mutterings I heard while in line were attesting to the same thing; this election matters so the numbers are up. 

The other funny thing I noticed was the odd sombreness of the crowd. It was more like attending a funeral than anything I can recall previously. People seem to feel that the stakes are high and the potential for a negative outcome is grim. What was it like in other areas?


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

that's what it was like here too (trinity spadina). A real sombre mood, people seem to have look of conviction in there eye. And sooo many young people. Will be interesting to watch the results.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I may have to pull out the extra fine bottle of scotch. For celebration / for consolation!


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

i have some too. Likely for consolation though.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Well, CP24 is declaring Rob Ford the winner.... that was quick.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm surprised that many Ford voters could actually find their way to the Polling Station.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Not only did Ford win big..... many of the little piggies at the trough have been ousted. Incredible.

Amazing what this city can do when they bother to get mobilized and vote.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Getcher headline news! 

_New piggies at trough celebrate, say "we won't be pigs"_


----------



## Ottawaman (Jan 16, 2005)




----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

it always makes you laugh when people buy the "don't worry I won't lie" crap. Bu then scream liar really loud to other guy.

Yeah! The old piggies being replaced by, new piggies!

Well, I guess we'll see, how much value mr. ford can deliver for the tax dollars. Cutting services will ensure he's a one termer that's for sure.

Wasn't Larry O'Brien Ottawa's Rob Ford and their taxes went up? Man people there must have been pretty pissed lol.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Ottawaman said:


>


Ottawaman, that's an insult to pigs.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

just saw on the twitter feed, 'Toronto just got into a car with a drunk driver...'

lmao.

sob.


----------



## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Would it be a correct assertion that Rob Ford's support comes from _municipal_ taxpayers/property owners versus his detractors who are renters and don't have a financial stake in the services of the city? Is this what happened? A taxpayer revolt à la Tea Party?


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I think the message the voters gave was pretty clear and I believe each of the elected councillors have heard it too, no matter which side of the spectrum they sit on. 

What's amazing is new Canadians got out and voted. From Etobicoke to Scarborough they lined up and exercised their rights. Toronto is no longer "Downtown" and anyone running for mayor or council would be wise to remember that.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

A bit too simple, gmark2000. It's anecdotal, I know, but I personally know of plenty of homeowners in the centre core who reviled Ford.

But there's some truth to your assessment. Just as there's also some truth that Ford had more followers in the edge cities bordering downtown. But he had enough votes pretty much everywhere to sweep in.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Gary, Ford's support comes from a wide spectrum. Many of his supporters are new Canadians who are just as likely to rent as own. Ford had huge support from small business owners and property owners alike. Most support comes from outside the downtown core.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Quiet mood at the polling station here as well, but many turned out.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

adagio said:


> I think the message the voters gave was pretty clear and I believe each of the elected councillors have heard it too, no matter which side of the spectrum they sit on.
> 
> What's amazing is new Canadians got out and voted. From Etobicoke to Scarborough they lined up and exercised their rights. Toronto is no longer "Downtown" and anyone running for mayor or council would be wise to remember that.


oh I'm afraid downtown, is still here. We may have cyclists, and those pesky streetcars mr. ford wants to spend hundreds of millions of dollars replacing, it is still the biggest city in this country, and it needs someone who understands the downtown core.

Not some buffoon who's pissed off because he gets slowed down by all the 'downtowners' getting to work on a streetcar.

Many 'downtowners' may have been swayed this time round to Mr. Ford's simplistic stopping the gravy train message, but if he wants to remain mayor, displaying the sort of disdain for downtown as you have will ensure he's a one termer.

Downtown, is, the lifeblood of the GTA, and he would do well to figure this out, quickly.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

If he accomplishes 10 per cent of what he promised in one term, it will be a single term well spent.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well at least we have an idea of what neo cons consider a success!

90% FAIL, is A-OK.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> well at least we have an idea of what neo cons consider a success!
> 
> 90% FAIL, is A-OK.


Smitherman and Pantalone are today at 100% fail.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)




----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

No respect for Smitherman zombies!


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> Many 'downtowners' may have been swayed this time round to Mr. Ford's simplistic stopping the gravy train message, but if he wants to remain mayor, displaying the sort of disdain for downtown as you have will ensure he's a one termer.
> 
> Downtown, is, the lifeblood of the GTA, and he would do well to figure this out, quickly.


.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

^^^^^^^^
It even looks like Smitherman!


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

sinc said:


> .


+1


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Smitherman and Pantalone are today at 100% fail.


They were mayors and reneged on promises?

Interesting logic you have there.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> They were mayors and reneged on promises?
> 
> Interesting logic you have there.


Nobody has reneged on any promises. I just hope that Ford is capable of pushing 10 per cent of his reforms through council.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Nobody has reneged on any promises. I just hope that Ford is capable of pushing 10 per cent of his reforms through council.


I'm laughing at your schoolyard responses.

10%. Like I said. At least you're forthcoming about your bar of excellence.

As for sour grapes, (coming from someone in Alberta who knows snot about Toronto Municipal politics) I'm interested in revisiting this a couple years from now. And see how well Rob Ford has performed for Toronto.

Well we know Macfury is sweet on 10% effective.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> I'm laughing at your schoolyard responses.
> 
> 10%. Like I said. At least you're forthcoming about your bar of excellence.
> 
> ...


It will take a lot of work to undo David Miller's "progressive" reforms, but I think Ford is up for it.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

ahhhh. Not even elected for a few hours, and already the excuses flow.

It'll be mere weeks when we'll find out Rob Ford isn't totally responsible because, the liberals made him do it.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> As for sour grapes, (coming from someone in Alberta who knows snot about Toronto Municipal politics) .


I thought it appropriate given your penchant for telling me about how things are here in Alberta when you've played a gig or two here. I went to enough board meetings there over a 30 year span to know just a bit about TO.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

When did I tell you about alberta's city's municipal politics? I've played there 100s of times, I don't know squat about an Albertan's city's politics.


----------



## Paddy (Jul 13, 2004)

As I've said a million times (since living in a small MA town which saw just this sort of mentality sway the majority, at least for a little while) - it's ALWAYS easy to convince voters that "government wastes your money" and that there's some gravy train that needs to be stopped and that taxes are too high...and on and on. Keeping your money is always more attractive than giving it to someone else - especially if you've been convinced that the someone else is frittering it away. The truth has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it. So now we have someone who is promising to slash taxes and cut city employees (except the police - he's hiring more of them) and mysteriously, we're not being threatened with any reduction in services. The fact that none of this computes doesn't seem to bother the average voter - because guberment is wasting my money, dontcha know! 

Truth is, Toronto had no great alternatives this election - there was no compelling front-runner with a vision for the city. Instead we got to choose between the simplistic, one-trick pony Ford and the gee-which-way-is-the-wind-blowing-today (what's my message again?) Smitherman, with Pantalone running hopelessly along behind. A sad day indeed.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Paddy said:


> So now we have someone who is promising to slash taxes and cut city employees (except the police - he's hiring more of them) and mysteriously, we're not being threatened with any reduction in services.


We'll have plenty of reduction in services, thank goodness. I've never had so many services that I value so little.


----------



## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Paddy said:


> Truth is, Toronto had no great alternatives this election - there was no compelling front-runner with a vision


It's that way in all levels of Government. We all await the messiah.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> It's that way in all levels of Government. We all await the messiah.


You do? I just pick from the candidates that are available. 

I laughed at the _Toronto Star_ editorial this morning: "Ford must reach out." They don't offer such advice when a left-leaning candidate takes over.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> You do? I just pick from the candidates that are available.
> 
> I laughed at the _Toronto Star_ editorial this morning: "Ford must reach out." They don't offer such advice when a left-leaning candidate takes over.


That's because left leaners reach out by nature. It's what they do.


----------



## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

John Tory was the best option that never was.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> That's because left leaners reach out by nature. It's what they do.


LIke Obama? Like Miller? Like McGuinty? Left-leaners ask others to reach out to _them_--when they lose.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

gmark2000 said:


> John Tory was the best option that never was.


After his religious education fiasco I lost trust in him.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Paddy said:


> As I've said a million times (since living in a small MA town which saw just this sort of mentality sway the majority, at least for a little while) - it's ALWAYS easy to convince voters that "government wastes your money" and that there's some gravy train that needs to be stopped and that taxes are too high...and on and on. Keeping your money is always more attractive than giving it to someone else - especially if you've been convinced that the someone else is frittering it away. The truth has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Logic has absolutely nothing to do with it. So now we have someone who is promising to slash taxes and cut city employees (except the police - he's hiring more of them) and mysteriously, we're not being threatened with any reduction in services. The fact that none of this computes doesn't seem to bother the average voter - because guberment is wasting my money, dontcha know!
> 
> Truth is, Toronto had no great alternatives this election - there was no compelling front-runner with a vision for the city. Instead we got to choose between the simplistic, one-trick pony Ford and the gee-which-way-is-the-wind-blowing-today (what's my message again?) Smitherman, with Pantalone running hopelessly along behind. A sad day indeed.


well put. I'm always amazed at how quickly people are taken by this notion of cutting taxes, not really losing the services, and somehow we'll balance the budgets. In pretty much every case that's not ever really worked out so well. Federally we're watching yet another conservative government spend itself silly,, -and- cut taxes, and somehow, we're supposed to believe this is, someone else's fault.

Brainless.

All you have to say is you're going to give people's money back. From that point, people don't care, what it actually means until years later when they see the real results of that.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Everyone makes mistakes, MF. That one was a doozy, admittedly. I would have voted for the man - certainly over Smitherman or Ford. Alas, seems he got tired of losing. He might have been a good manager for this town.

Now that Ford's in I look forward to how good he is with that broom he rode in on.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well after he and his supporters are drunk on slashing some thousands from the office budgets and the $60 vehicle registration tax (oops isn't that a promise reneged on already?), the real world should set in and that should get interesting.

Here's my prediction. Less services, higher taxes.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Here's my prediction. Less services, higher taxes.


And what under Smitherman? Pantalone?


----------



## FeXL (Jan 2, 2004)

mrjimmy said:


> That's because left leaners reach out by nature. It's what they do.


Yeah. For my wallet...


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

FeXL said:


> Yeah. For my wallet...


Wow! That cheap laugh took longer then expected.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> And what under Smitherman? Pantalone?


They lost, numb-nuts. Stop your "speculation".


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Miami doesn't seem to think much of Toronto's choice for mayor...

*Rob Ford, Toronto's Newly Elected Mayor, Was Arrested for DUI and Pot Charges in Miami*

Nice of them to hold the story until after the election, eh?


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

CubaMark said:


> Miami doesn't seem to think much of Toronto's choice for mayor...
> 
> *Rob Ford, Toronto's Newly Elected Mayor, Was Arrested for DUI and Pot Charges in Miami*
> 
> Nice of them to hold the story until after the election, eh?


YAWN... old news.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> Miami doesn't seem to think much of Toronto's choice for mayor...
> 
> *Rob Ford, Toronto's Newly Elected Mayor, Was Arrested for DUI and Pot Charges in Miami*
> 
> Nice of them to hold the story until after the election, eh?


Old news CM. They all knew and voted him in anyway. He also allegedly beat his wife. I'm sure the list goes on.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

CubaMark said:


> Miami doesn't seem to think much of Toronto's choice for mayor...
> Nice of them to hold the story until after the election, eh?


Hold the presses! This news is so old it smells like bad tuna.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

CubaMark said:


> Nice of them to hold the story until after the election, eh?


Well reported all summer.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

ooooold news. Everyone's good with the drunk driving, and wife beating.

But his campaign was pretty like this, and Toronto loved it I guess.





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> ooooold news. Everyone's good with the drunk driving, and wife beating.


No charges or conviction of wife beating. Stop with the libel, Sour Grapes.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

though you're pretty fast to mouth off when it's a liberal smart boy.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't accuse them of unproven criminal acts--just stupidity and avarice.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

the liberals have been accused of things all the time here. Ask Ralph Goodale about being accused of something, that ended up helping swaying a federal election. And he was found innocent too...

cry me a river.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> the liberals have been accused of things all the time here. Ask Ralph Goodale about being accused of something, that ended up helping swaying a federal election. And he was found innocent too...
> 
> cry me a river.


He barely registers on my scale of recognizable people. I've certainly never accused him of anything.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> But again, I never considered politics a gentleman's game, and I believe that elections should be all-out battles, not croquet matches. Mud-slinging is fair game, provided the mud is legit.


I think domestic abuse comments are fair game considering he was taking out of his house in handcuffs. Regardless of the outcome, it was never clear what happened.

And for the record, Ford's comments regarding Asians was that 'Orientals are taking over' for which he was forced to apologize.

I have the feeling we'll see more of all of this in the future. Looking forward to the theatre but ashamed this disaster in waiting was elected to office.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> I think domestic abuse comments are fair game considering he was taking out of his house in handcuffs. Regardless of the outcome, it was never clear what happened.


You could say that he was charged and cleared, just like this guy Goodale.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

mrjimmy said:


> I think domestic abuse comments are fair game considering he was taking out of his house in handcuffs. Regardless of the outcome, it was never clear what happened.
> 
> And for the record, Ford's comments regarding Asians was that 'Orientals are taking over' for which he was forced to apologize.
> 
> I have the feeling we'll see more of all of this in the future. Looking forward to the theatre but ashamed this disaster in waiting was elected to office.


I think people will think the 'noooooooooobody' was not so bad.


----------



## CubaMark (Feb 16, 2001)

Apologies for the "old" news - the reporting date on the Miami news site was 26 October 2010, so it appeared fresh - to me, at least. Toronto not being the centre of my universe, I wasn't following the Rob Ford NewsBeat during the summer.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

CubaMark said:


> Apologies for the "old" news - the reporting date on the Miami news site was 26 October 2010, so it appeared fresh - to me, at least. Toronto not being the centre of my universe, I wasn't following the Rob Ford NewsBeat during the summer.


Totally understood. The story there is that a drunk driver was elected Mayor. That is 'new' news.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

and it begins. http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/asithappens_20101026_40204.mp3

It seems the youtube video, is bang on.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

mrjimmy said:


> Totally understood. The story there is that a drunk driver was elected Mayor. That is 'new' news.


You guys are lucky... BC has a *Premier* with a DUI record.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> and it begins. http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/asithappens_20101026_40204.mp3


What begins?


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

screature said:


> You guys are lucky... BC has *Premier* with a DUI record.


Didn't it happen while he was in office? Not much the voters can do about that.


----------



## screature (May 14, 2007)

mrjimmy said:


> Didn't it happen while he was in office? Not much the voters can do about that.


Well they can at the next election, but the HST will sink him before his DUI record will.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Doesn't say much for his opponents if in a 40 candidate field, if an alleged wife-beating, drunk-driving, pot-smoking, racist can command a near majority of the votes in an election where voter turnout was up.

I'd be scared if I were a Liberal politician in Ontario right now. Citizens seemingly will take anyone they can get as long as it's not you.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

bsenka said:


> Doesn't say much for his opponents if in a 40 candidate field, if an alleged wife-beating, drunk-driving, pot-smoking, racist can command a near majority of the votes in an election where voter turnout was up.
> 
> I'd be scared if I were a Liberal politician in Ontario right now. Citizens seemingly will take anyone they can get as long as it's not you.


Anecdotal evidence suggests that minority voters supported Ford overwhelmingly.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

all voters heard was that they might have a few extra bucks in their pockets this year.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

jawknee said:


> all voters heard was that they might have a few extra bucks in their pockets this year.


And that Ford was going to stick it to the man, whomever that is.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> And that Ford was going to stick it to the man, whomever that is.


He never suggested he would stick it to "the man"--just fey lefties.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

I wonder who will get the City Hall catering contract in the future...


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

This is not anecdotal. My neighbour voted for Rob. This person is gay, part visible minority, usually votes NDP and is a union member. He is one person I least expected to be a Ford voter. 

You'd be hard pressed to find any common denominator in who voted what in this election. It would appear support came from just about anywhere and you definitely can't blame any particular political party allegiance. It would be dangerous to assume it was right wingers and that TO has suddenly taken a turn to the right of centre. ALL political parties at every level better be listening to what the voters are saying. There's a message to each and every one of them.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

jawknee said:


> I wonder who will get the City Hall catering contract in the future...


They'll be packing their own lunches.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

adagio said:


> ALL political parties at every level better be listening to what the voters are saying. There's a message to each and every one of them.


Agreed. I don't think that most citizens had a sense that they were being treated as anything more than piggy banks to feed the left wing dreams of David Miller--including many of those who supported those dreams. Even left-wing fantasies need to be brought in on a budget.

Getting bogged down in nonsense about plastic bags, green roofs and redesigning the grounds of City Hall as the economy foundered was more proof that the mayor's priorities were perverse.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

jawknee said:


> I wonder who will get the City Hall catering contract in the future...


I think there will be all kinds of interesting things to see in the next while.

I heard that his brother will be donating his salary to charity. While it's great if you're not someone who's rich and depends on a salary without the means to buy ones way into public favour, there is one thing I've learned.

No politician, -ever- gives away money for free.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

> all voters heard was that they might have a few extra bucks in their pockets this year.





adagio said:


> It would appear support came from just about anywhere and you definitely can't blame any particular political party allegiance. It would be dangerous to assume it was right wingers and that TO has suddenly taken a turn to the right of centre.


I absolutely agree with both there assertions. Assuming it was, as MacFury is suggesting a fey lefty backlash is nonsense. Ford tantalized his supporters with a few dollars and they jumped at it. Was there long term thinking involved? I personally don't believe so. What they stand to lose will cost a lot more than the vehicle registration fee.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

mrjimmy said:


> I absolutely agree with both there assertions. Assuming it was, as MacFury is suggesting a fey lefty backlash is nonsense. Ford tantalized his supporters with a few dollars and they jumped at it. *Was there long term thinking involved?* I personally don't believe so. What they stand to lose will cost a lot more than the vehicle registration fee.


Just listen to his CBC interview I posted. It pretty much says it all.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Our condo board posted the results for the polling station in our building in the elevator.... apparently, I live in Smitherman country. Who knew?


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

they do that? hmm. it'd be interesting to see who's support came from where


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> What they stand to lose will cost a lot more than the vehicle registration fee.


Losing a bunch of high-paid civil servants and a some programs the city can't afford while leaving me with more of my income? That's a winner!


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

groovetube said:


> they do that? hmm. it'd be interesting to see who's support came from where


I don't think they do that everywhere, but as I recall, the results in the building were:

Smitherman: 167
Ford: 65
Pantalone: 33


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> Losing a bunch of high-paid civil servants and a some programs the city can't afford while leaving me with more of my income? That's a winner!


Don't spend your $60 all in on place!


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jawknee said:


> Don't spend your $60 all in on place!


That'll be $240 over Ford's term and money I dearly need to spend here, instead of paying union salaries.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Macfury said:


> That'll be $240 over Ford's term and money I dearly need to spend here, instead of paying union salaries.


I bet I know where he'll spend his $240!


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> That'll be $240 over Ford's term and money I dearly need to spend here, instead of paying union salaries.


The unions won't be going anywhere, just like the streetcars.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I cannot wait to see the upcoming battle with the unions.

At least I can walk to work, and have a place to put our garbage easily enough.

I'll be stocking up on the popcorn for this one.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> At least I can walk to work, and have a place to put our garbage easily enough.


Thank goodness unions don't make popcorn.

If Ford tames the garbage workers' union, then garbage pick-up problems will be permanently solved.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

and beer will be free in all the bars.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> and beer will be free in all the bars.


Well it is for city councilors... but not for long.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> If Ford tames the garbage workers' union, then garbage pick-up problems will be permanently solved.


In municipal politics, "permanently solved" anything sounds like wishful thinking. Do you really think he'll actually tame the union? I thought the idea was to go around the union by contracting out garbage collection.

Besides, I thought you wanted Ford to come in and wreck everything so the next leader could come in and start rebuilding? [Cue the theme to The Six Million Dollar Man].


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Ford is one vote of 45.

How many councilors see eye to eye with his proposed policy changes (well...from what he's actually proposed which has been like 2 or 3 things). How many councilors can he play nice with? How many votes will he get to further his agenda?

I can't see much getting done over the next 4 years.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

If Ford can tone down his blustery ways and exhibit some diplomacatic skills, he might get quite a bit done over the next four years. Remember also that council's makeup has changed somewhat; there will likely be a new level of receptiveness for some of his plans. Moreover, council has got to be aware that the status quo is hardly going to cut it. Ford's decisive victory represents a new era of city governance.

Even so, there's only so much Ford can do, given the limits to his powers. I expect a fair amount of back-pedalling over the coming weeks as he slowly acknowledges that he just can't do all that he campaigned to do.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Max said:


> If Ford can tone down his blustery ways and exhibit some diplomacatic skills, he might get quite a bit done over the next four years. Remember also that council's makeup has changed somewhat; there will likely be a new level of receptiveness for some of his plans. Moreover, council has got to be aware that the status quo is hardly going to cut it. Ford's decisive victory represents a new era of city governance.
> 
> Even so, there's only so much Ford can do, given the limits to his powers. I expect a fair amount of back-pedalling over the coming weeks as he slowly acknowledges that he just can't do all that he campaigned to do.


Good luck with this slug. Ottawa just survived 4 years of a similar idiot as Mayor. The only difference is that at least Ford has been on council. He may be a bit more aware of something called politics. I thought Toronto had learned from the Mel Lastperson regime but I guess not.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Max said:


> If Ford can tone down his blustery ways and exhibit some diplomacatic skills


can't see that happening.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Maybe not. Then again, he came from behind and buried the opposition. The man is smarter than he acts. Smart enough to get elected. Let's see if he's smart enough to actually run this town.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

did you hear the cbc interview?

If he is indeed smarter, he's playing a pretty good game.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

groovetube said:


> did you hear the cbc interview?
> 
> If he is indeed smarter, he's playing a pretty good game.


I suggest you give him the benefit of doubt for one week and then commence making his life miserable. Frankly he's such a nimrod he'll take care of himself when it comes to illustrating idiocy...very similar to Larry O'Brien in Ottawa. Even the right wingers will cringe


----------



## Ottawaman (Jan 16, 2005)

groovetube said:


> did you hear the cbc interview?
> 
> If he is indeed smarter, he's playing a pretty good game.





> here's the abridged version (note, this was done at a football practice, and is periodically interrupted by him directing players):
> 
> 
> CBC: How are you going to reduce spending?
> ...



Sort of like this.....? (Substitute gravy train for 9 11 )





+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

jimbotelecom said:


> I suggest you give him the benefit of doubt for one week and then commence making his life miserable. Frankly he's such a nimrod he'll take care of himself when it comes to illustrating idiocy...very similar to Larry O'Brien in Ottawa. Even the right wingers will cringe


I've watched him act like a buffoon for almost 10 years. This isn't anything new.

What's astounding is that people think that by giving him the mayor position he'll suddenly stop being an idiot.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> did you hear the cbc interview?
> 
> If he is indeed smarter, he's playing a pretty good game.


He was coaching a football game during the interview.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

You know one of the interesting things about the U.S. election system is the College. The College was developed to even out the population distribution that skews popular votes [ however the flaw is that each states appears to interpret how to administer their votes individually -- per cent of vote or all or nothing ] this sounds like a thoughtful system until you examine its actual intent, which was the assumption that the average citizen was too dumb to vote so we needed to put in a safe guard .... roll to Toronto election .... you are always going to have debates on who should win, but if Ford was such a dummy, why was he elected in his ward for 10 or so years? Maybe we should have an electoral college in Toronto ....


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I guess he should have thought about this before making the commitment to an interview in advance then eh.

Sounds like the mayor of arseville to me rather than Canada's biggest city.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Rps said:


> You know one of the interesting things about the U.S. election system is the College. The College was developed to even out the population distribution that skews popular votes [ however the flaw is that each states appears to interpret how to administer their votes individually -- per cent of vote or all or nothing ] this sounds like a thoughtful system until you examine its actual intent, which was the assumption that the average citizen was too dumb to vote so we needed to put in a safe guard ....


It was put into place to assure that Congress did not choose an Executive different from the wishes of the voters. In the original plan, Congress was to elect the Executive on its own.


----------



## hayesk (Mar 5, 2000)

Ottawaman said:


> Sort of like this.....? (Substitute gravy train for 9 11 )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reminds me of Ottawa's previous mayor. He promised no tax increases; "Zero means zero" was his catch phrase and it got him elected. If he did his homework, he would have realized that Ottawa had very little tax increases for the past several years, even as costs increased and the province offloaded lots of services to the city. "Zero means zero" was simply not feasible and we did see tax increases during his term because he couldn't cut enough services. O'Brien was defeated handily this week.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I mentioned your guy a few times here. It didn't seem to register.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Macfury said:


> It was put into place to assure that Congress did not choose an Executive different from the wishes of the voters. In the original plan, Congress was to elect the Executive on its own.


Not to get into a debate on this issue, but the college was created for two reasons, first, to equal out the population votes of the states and second there was a division in the population on who should elect the president, some wanted congress some wanted the direct method. Thus it was created since the government of the day felt the average person was not informed enough to be entrusted with the vote for president [ read too dumb ] this provided a compromise between the two factions.....


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

hayesk, interesting you mention about tax increases. Ford said taxes would have to increase but he felt they should be in line with inflation. It was Smitherman who campaigned that he would freeze taxes for the first year.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well since inflation has been at a record low, even DEflation, I guess that means pretty much, nil then.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

apparently stopping the gravy train requires tax dollars.

anyways, anyone see the breakdown of how the city voted? It looks like the downtown core is giving the suburbs the finger.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

This is amalgamation's revenge--and a sweet one too.

I'd be curious to see how may of those blue districts had reasonably large Smitherman support, or whether any of those purple districts nearly went Ford. Where did you find that chart?


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

Macfury said:


> This is amalgamation's revenge--and a sweet one too.


i agree (well...except the sweet revenge part). Ford should be thanking Lastman for the win.

You can see more data on the election breakdown here :

How Toronto Voted For Mayor - Torontoist


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

That graphic breakdown of the core vs. the surrounding GTA fits with my own expectations for this election. Wow, big disconnect between the two groups... a gap to be bridged somehow - or not, as the case may be.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Ditto: exactly as expected


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I've been looking over the detailed results here:

City of Toronto: Toronto Elections - Elections results - 2010


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

So, geographically, is the Ford area high population, or a population that votes? I looked at some numbers and about 800,000 people voted for mayor, which I took as the number of voters. So, if Toronto has, say 2.5 million people and those include non-voting kids, you have what, 1.8 million eligible votes, so 50% turn-out? Which may mean that Ford's people came out where Smitherman's didn't. Or is this too simple a statement.....just wondering, and I'm also not familiar with the population in these areas on the map.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

I saw that earlier today. It seems the downtown core is of a different mind, and rightly so. It's a very, different place, as mr. ford will find out. Not, that he gives two craps.

Amalgamation with a region with very different considerations, is such a bad idea.


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Interesting how people actually believe government inflation figures. 

Food up.
Insurance up.
In most areas property taxes up.
Gasoline static.
Electricity and Natural Gas static.
Auto prices up.
Purchased Housing costs down a bit.
Rental housing static or up

For someone on a fixed income his living expenses have risen by as much as 10% in the past year. Only someone that is currently buying but not selling a home is seeing any deflation.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

well that really really clears it right up. It does yeah.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

eMacMan said:


> Interesting how people actually believe government inflation figures.
> 
> Food up.
> Insurance up.
> ...


Electricity and natural gas up because of HST.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Rps said:


> So, geographically, is the Ford area high population, or a population that votes? I looked at some numbers and about 800,000 people voted for mayor, which I took as the number of voters. So, if Toronto has, say 2.5 million people and those include non-voting kids, you have what, 1.8 million eligible votes, so 50% turn-out? Which may mean that Ford's people came out where Smitherman's didn't. Or is this too simple a statement.....just wondering, and I'm also not familiar with the population in these areas on the map.


Sort of. Downtown is high population, but so is Scarborough, so is North York. 

The lines are drawn very close to Smitherman supporters come from the old (pre-amalgamation) city of Toronto, and Ford supporters from the other cities--basically, a culture clash of urban vs. suburban.


----------



## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Thanks Sonal, I wondered about that. It seems that there was a good voter turn out this time, which usually means a change. I'm wondering if e-voting is in the future. Here in Clarington we had about a 33% turn out, not good, so I'm wondering what it takes outside of press-gangs to get people out to vote ....e-voting seems like a good option.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I've been reading quite a bit of sour grapes over this result. Several commenters in various papers have mentioned that Ford didn't win the "REAL" Toronto. There's a disconnect here and I'm not sure it can ever be resolved. I've lived in both sides so I can understand the mindset of each. 

Miller was absolutely despised in the 'burbs. He tried to turn suburbia into downtown with bicycle lanes that go mostly unused but have driven many small businesses out of business when parking was banned. It happened in my own block where a hard working immigrant family lost their convenience store when parking out front, even for a minute, resulted in a $60 parking ticket. How do you expect this family and all their friends to vote? Please don't think this is an isolated incident. It has been happening right across the city.

While true that downtown is the life of town, those who live there need to remember that without the thousands and thousands from outside who converge on the city every day of the week, the core would shrivel up and die in very short order. It's actually those from the 'burbs or tourists who pay for the downtown lifestyle. Businesses would not survive if totally reliant on those who live there. Boarded up businesses bring rot. Look no further than Buffalo or Detroit to see what I mean.

Both sides of the coin need each other and a way must be found to bridge the disconnect. I can tell you with certainty that a one size fits all attitude will never cut it so some compromise is needed.


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

i-rui said:


> How Toronto Voted For Mayor - Torontoist


Thanks for this link. Very interesting how the voting pattern seems to correlate to subway access. Theres's a definite pattern to class of workers too. I enjoyed reading many of the comments as well. This city needs more thinking and less finger pointing and name calling.

Researchers Propose Buses to Ease Toronto's Class Divide - Torontoist

This is an idea I think the 'burbs could get behind and costs would be a fraction of the alternatives.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Rps said:


> Thanks Sonal, I wondered about that. It seems that there was a good voter turn out this time, which usually means a change. I'm wondering if e-voting is in the future. Here in Clarington we had about a 33% turn out, not good, so I'm wondering what it takes outside of press-gangs to get people out to vote ....e-voting seems like a good option.


Personally, I see no reason to try to encourage people to vote. They will vote if it means something to them, or sit on their asses if it doesn't. Let the laggards stay at home. I'd rather they not vote if it means so little to them.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I see every reason to encourage more people to vote... more people voting means more pressure on elected leaders to act on their promises - and conversely, more people who actually care enough to turf out an undesirable administration, as was the case with Ford decisively saying ta-ta to the Miller era... a strong showing but still not the kind of voter participation one would hope for in a healthy democracy.

Democracy is always in danger when the voter turnout creeps ever lower thanks to voter apathy and complacency. I can't see how that is a good thing.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> I see every reason to encourage more people to vote... more people voting means more pressure on elected leaders to act on their promises - and conversely, more people who actually care enough to turf out an undesirable administration, as was the case with Ford decisively saying ta-ta to the Miller era... a strong showing but still not the kind of voter participation one would hope for in a healthy democracy.
> 
> Democracy is always in danger when the voter turnout creeps ever lower thanks to voter apathy and complacency. I can't see how that is a good thing.


I simply don't want disinterested parties to be railroaded to participate.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

adagio said:


> I've been reading quite a bit of sour grapes over this result. Several commenters in various papers have mentioned that Ford didn't win the "REAL" Toronto. There's a disconnect here and I'm not sure it can ever be resolved. I've lived in both sides so I can understand the mindset of each.
> 
> Miller was absolutely despised in the 'burbs. He tried to turn suburbia into downtown with bicycle lanes that go mostly unused but have driven many small businesses out of business when parking was banned. It happened in my own block where a hard working immigrant family lost their convenience store when parking out front, even for a minute, resulted in a $60 parking ticket. How do you expect this family and all their friends to vote? Please don't think this is an isolated incident. It has been happening right across the city.
> 
> ...


see that's the attitude that is the problem.

It is the burbs, that survive off the the downtown. Cut the downtown out, and the burbs, well, they wouldn't be, what they are. They were born from the downtown. The downtown, is the heart of the GTA. And this fool doesn't understand that.

I grew up, in the burbs. I live downtown now.

There is no question, that there are conflicting interests. This, is a real problem. But the effects of a total moron for a mayor who doesn't get the downtown, will be severe if that thing gets it's way for a prolonged period of time. The downtown, is a very very different place, and I'm tired of listening to people insinute downtown is surviving off of the burbs.

What a total crock.

The biggest stupidity of all, is to suggest if someone isn't taken in by the child like rants of "stopping the gravy train", somehow you don't support the idea of being fiscally responsible. Or, that a mayor shouldn't be paying close attention to the burbs.

I suppose one needs to find a way to prove credibility any way they can.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Macfury said:


> I simply don't want disinterested parties to be railroaded to participate.


Yet how does one actually railroad truly disinterested parties? I don't see it happening. Bribery and vote buying - that I can see.

Yet whereas many of us genuinely find elections bracing (entertaining, even) or merely vote out of a dull sense of duty, detractors/non-voters tend to find the whole process tedious... an annoying test of endurance.

Beneath the surface of our perspectives, I think we're in agreement on this one.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

I dunno, Groove. Downtown and the burbs are one and the same. It's the COTU. It's the GTA. Ultimately, it's a mistake to pull an "us and them" perspective on it, although the voters did just that and it's admittedly very easy to do. Lots of people work in the centre core but are only too happy to go home to the burbs every night. You really can't fault them for it - whatever works for ya, man.

But let's not forget the fact that it's one large urban megalopolis - its citizens breathing the same dirty air, driving the same choked roads, attending the same games, the same schools, relaxing in the same parks. The relationship between downtown and the belt of urbanity on three sides of it is entirely symbiotic; pretending one side needs the other side more is not useful. Seems political wedges are used all too often already - we ought to refrain from the same old tired saws of "they don't get us."


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

groovetube said:


> And this fool doesn't understand that.


A Freudian slip that is closer to the truth or what?


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Max said:


> I dunno, Groove. Downtown and the burbs are one and the same. It's the COTU. It's the GTA. Ultimately, it's a mistake to pull an "us and them" perspective on it, although the voters did just that and it's admittedly very easy to do. Lots of people work in the centre core but are only too happy to go home to the burbs every night. You really can't fault them for it - whatever works for ya, man.
> 
> But let's not forget the fact that it's one large urban megalopolis - its citizens breathing the same dirty air, driving the same choked roads, attending the same games, the same schools, relaxing in the same parks. The relationship between downtown and the belt of urbanity on three sides of it is entirely symbiotic; pretending one side needs the other side more is not useful. Seems political wedges are used all too often already - we ought to refrain from the same old tired saws of "they don't get us."


I don't disagree Max, but some don't see it that way obviously, and clearly, if you look at the election results map, the overwhelming majority of Toronto "proper" didn't feel Rob Ford was capable of understanding the downtown either.

As I said, I don't think it's impossible for a mayor to pull it off, the needs and considerations are clearly different. But it takes someone with far more intelligence than Rob Ford, and I suspect even many who voted for him, thinks it too.

But as we both said, the choices were pretty crap. And Rob Ford should thank his lucky stars for that.

Perhaps with some luck, Mr. Ford will do ok, but having watched 'this fool' for almost 10 years, and just the out of the gate performances we're seeing, shoot me if I think he'll be a failure.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

groovetube said:


> It is the burbs, that survive off the the downtown. Cut the downtown out, and the burbs, well, they wouldn't be, what they are. They were born from the downtown.


Nothing makes that a requirement, and many other cities have seen that relationship flip.

Just look at Winnipeg. Here, the burbs ARE the city. Downtown is exactly where nobody wants to be anymore. People don't even want to pass THROUGH downtown to get to places on the other side of it, they'll happily drive twice as far just to avoid downtown. Neither the citizens, the businesses, nor the politics are of any relevance to the rest of the city. They can do/work/buy/build/vote any way they want, but it won't have any effect on Winnipeg as a whole because collectively, nobody cares. The "real" city is a donut comprised of everything other than downtown. Downtown might as well be a small town 100 km away.

Most urban centres in Canada are moving in the same direction, and you're kidding yourself if you think that Toronto is immune. The only reason Winnipeg is there now, but Toronto is not yet is that Winnipeg did it's "unicity" amalgamation a lot longer ago. Amalgamation almost always changes the core-burb relationship from outside-in to inside-out. "The grass is always greener" mentality is a lot stronger when that grass actually IS green in comparison.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Great point, Bsenka... the hole in the donut syndrome is not unique to Winnipeg. Closer to our neck of the woods, I can think of Detroit.

Central core rot is caused by many things, but one of them is complacency and the foolish attitude that "it can't happen here."

That said, Toronto is a different place. The centre core is still attracting new residents, albeit at a slower pace than even a few months ago, but condo towers and mid-rise infill projects are still going up. The population is increasing and you can see it in the main arteries... even my normally sleepy neck of the woods is changing up, a fact which I personally am enjoying.

Some of the suburbs here see more gun crime and poverty than does the downtown (Scarborough and some northern parts of the city come to mind) ... older suburban areas which have not seen the scale and pace of redevelopment the centre core and newer, further out suburbs have seen. The social safety net has badly frayed in these areas, though it's true that the entire system is a far cry from the good old days. My point is that eventually the rot and decline of these regions produce disparities which cost the entire amalgamated whole. Cities in general have to become adept at reinventing themselves. It's normal that neighbourhoods everywhere undergo transition and that sometimes those transitions are awkward and ugly. The challenge is for a city's inhabitants to imagine a place that's more workable and more attractive than is presently the case. Cities must continually renew themselves or perish. Toronto, ground zero of southern Ontario, is in just that position. Manufacturing of many stripes has largely disappeared - once a mainstay in our part of the country. But that's another thread, no doubt.

Great cities have wonderful neighbourhoods, each with their own flavour and draws. But for a great city to work, its people have to be able to identify with being part of a greater whole. In other words, you can't eternally pit the suburbs against the core, the east against the west, uptown vs. downtown, etc. That's the mark of a place which hasn't yet got its act together - and perhaps never will.

Rob Ford got in here because he deserved to. His opponents underestimated his strength while misreading the general public mood. Clearly no one else was as hungry as he was. Now that he's in, we'll really get a chance to see what he's made of. It's that simple. Since many in the core did not vote for Ford, it will be interesting to see how he handles core issues. That will be one of many tests he faces in the coming months and years.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

bsenka said:


> Nothing makes that a requirement, and many other cities have seen that relationship flip.
> 
> Just look at Winnipeg. Here, the burbs ARE the city. Downtown is exactly where nobody wants to be anymore. People don't even want to pass THROUGH downtown to get to places on the other side of it, they'll happily drive twice as far just to avoid downtown. Neither the citizens, the businesses, nor the politics are of any relevance to the rest of the city. They can do/work/buy/build/vote any way they want, but it won't have any effect on Winnipeg as a whole because collectively, nobody cares. The "real" city is a donut comprised of everything other than downtown. Downtown might as well be a small town 100 km away.
> 
> Most urban centres in Canada are moving in the same direction, and you're kidding yourself if you think that Toronto is immune. The only reason Winnipeg is there now, but Toronto is not yet is that Winnipeg did it's "unicity" amalgamation a lot longer ago. Amalgamation almost always changes the core-burb relationship from outside-in to inside-out. "The grass is always greener" mentality is a lot stronger when that grass actually IS green in comparison.


I'm not sure what city YOU are talking about, but I'm not aware of Toronto being the sort of city no one wants to go to. It's because of having attention spent on Toronto that this city is thriving. And Max is right, we cannot have the 'it can't happen here because it can and will (ala detroit) if we have idiots with the attitude that downtown toronto exists at the pleasure of the burbs.

It simply isn't the case here.

Perhaps you've had some seriously bad leadership in 'winterpeg'...


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Oh for the pre-amalgamation days. Perhaps it's merely wishful thinking, but wasn't there less acrimony between the COTU cities than there are between parts of the badly united whole we call "Toronto?"

Amalgamation was enacted supposedly to save cash. In many ways I wonder if it doesn't simply bleed even more cash, thanks to bad planning from an indifferent, top-heavy centre that doesn't understand the disparate needs of the many regions it manages.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

and here I thought conservatives were all gushy about small government.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Max said:


> Oh for the pre-amalgamation days. Perhaps it's merely wishful thinking, but wasn't there less acrimony between the COTU cities than there are between parts of the badly united whole we call "Toronto?"
> 
> Amalgamation was enacted supposedly to save cash. In many ways I wonder if it doesn't simply bleed even more cash, thanks to bad planning from an indifferent, top-heavy centre that doesn't understand the disparate needs of the many regions it manages.


Max

I enjoy your posts.

Amalgamation also saw the provincial govt. download countless govt. provided services such as local health programs, and several other administrative programs without any tax transfer to support the programs. The municipalities were and are forced to run the programs and pay for them. The province requires these programs to stay in place. Guess who picked up the costs? All courtesy of "the common sense revolution"! Thank you Mike Harris, Tony Clement, John Baird and all of their ilk.

I lived in Downtown Toronto from 1982 until 2000. Dundas and Sherborne area, Annex, Kensington Market, Palmerston Blvd, and a house in Leslieville. I love Toronto. I was one of 200,000 people that marched against amalgamation. When the welfare changes were introduced, people were forced onto the streets in droves and the footprint of crack houses out of the downtown core expanded - Scarborough deteriorated quickly and native scarberians left for Mississauga and Oakville - the vacum was filled by the formerly urban poor. Needless to say, I think I saw "what's happening" - coming and elected to move to Ottawa.

I have also experienced downtown Winnipeg but for short visits, I have a lot artsy friends and have been through the North End too. And I have to say I love Winnipeg too. Winnipeg has a fascinating urban history that it should exploit a little more. I think there is a vibrant culture there. Some parts are shady but they exist in every city.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

groovetube said:


> I'm not aware of Toronto being the sort of city no one wants to go to.


LOL!!! You don't talk to many people outside of Toronto, do you?



groovetube said:


> Perhaps you've had some seriously bad leadership in 'winterpeg'...


Bad leadership is that which throws good money after bad encouraging the "core is good" myth.

It was good leadership that allowed us to make use of the space available to us around the city to give us a cleaner, safer, less stressful way of life with better infrastructure.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

bsenka said:


> LOL!!! You don't talk to many people outside of Toronto, do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no I just see the thousands commuting in and out daily, and I don't mean just for work, the night life as well.

Sure there's plenty of folks at the local timmies who'll tell you they hate toronto and never go in. I can find twice as many down here who hate the suburbs. What does that prove?

I guess you haven't been outside of "winterpeg" much either, because anyone who lives down here is well aware of the fact that downtown Toronto is a magnet for people. Suggesting otherwise is nonsense.

I guess your, 'good leadership', did didleysquat for downtown Winnipeg eh.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

jimbotelecom (& thanks!): sounds like we frequented many of the same haunts during your stay in Toronto. I was born here but I grew up in the 'burbs of Ottawa (Maitland Avenue, then Riverside Park) and then Mississauga (right on the border with Oakville) and make no mistake, I was delighted to have escaped the suburbs when I became a young adult. As for your current city, Ottawa is a great town... not for me but it's certainly a workable scale and then there's the proximity of the Gatineaus and Montreal, both of which are a big attraction for me. I get there a lot still - my mother and sister are there. I love the whole Ottawa valley, too - some great little towns and hamlets. Then there's the short distance to the Rideau Lakes district and the many cooll little places between Ottawa and Kingston... some of my fave country in southern Ontario.

Amalgamation in Toronto has been, in my view, a failure. And yes, point taken about the downloading of services from the province to the municipal level; that has had a huge impact. I think the Harris Tories's slash and burn style were about saving money and raising efficiency levels too, much like Rob Ford and his people... both movements are very problematic but the optics at the front end are usually smartly populist. That's why such movements often push through - _let's give the taxpayers a break._

____________________________________________

As for Winnipeg, one of my oldest friends has lived there for more than a decade. He's in a lovely old neighbourhood and the city as a whole comes alive in the summertime. One of my very favourite locations for shooting is the Exchange District. All three times I have been to Winnipeg I have enjoyed walking around there, taking in the grandeur of those great old buildings. But yeah, downtown in general is a dessert, and it's very sad. What an epic fail, planning-wise. It's about as cold and impersonal as it gets. And the North End, from what little I've seen of it over my visits, reminded me of East Hastings in Vancouver... places afflicted with the compounded dross of a thousand different problems spanning untold years, involving a crusty history of political mis-steps. All of which serves to remind me that cities are the sum total of the very best they have to offer and the very worst of what they sometimes shamefully reveal.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

I lived on the very border of Scarborough and East York in my first house just before and during amalgamation, My tax bill actually decreased after the amalgamation, so there's no hard and fast logic about taxes and comparing urban and suburban regimes. Some are wasteful, some are frugal, some have new development subsidizing tax rates, some have mature infrastructure that requires little additional maintenance. 

But I certainly saved plenty during the Harris years. My disposable income rose considerably on tax rates alone. Earmie Eaves brought that to a grinding halt and Dalton McGuinty has done wonders reversing Ontario's fortunes.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Macfury said:


> I lived on the very border of Scarborough and East York in my first house just before and during amalgamation, My tax bill actually decreased after the amalgamation, so there's no hard and fast logic about taxes and comparing urban and suburban regimes. Some are wasteful, some are frugal, some have new development subsidizing tax rates, some have mature infrastructure that requires little additional maintenance.
> 
> But I certainly saved plenty during the Harris years. My disposable income rose considerably on tax rates alone. Earmie Eaves brought that to a grinding halt and Dalton McGuinty has done wonders reversing Ontario's fortunes.


Yeah the good ol' days, Mike chainsaws and reaps the short term gains and Uncle Ernie and Uncle Daltie figure out how to restore things from chaos. Where is ol chainsaw now a days? Partner in a firm no doubt.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Max said:


> I dunno, Groove. Downtown and the burbs are one and the same. It's the COTU. It's the GTA. Ultimately, it's a mistake to pull an "us and them" perspective on it, although the voters did just that and it's admittedly very easy to do. Lots of people work in the centre core but are only too happy to go home to the burbs every night. You really can't fault them for it - whatever works for ya, man.


Well, it is and it isn't. The TTC serves downtown far better than the 'burbs--it's not so important outside of downtown. We have festivals of all kinds in downtown every week, we have an art scene of sorts developing in pockets, but many people outside of downtown only really know about the biggest of these--funding for such things is less important to people who aren't aware of it. The homelessness problem is different. Crime is different--meaning that there are pockets of the 'burbs that are far worse than most of downtown, but not everyone in the 'burbs seems to realize that. You don't get a lot of people biking to work from Ellesmere & Morningside, and you don't get a lot of people driving to work from the Annex. 

It's one big city, but with very different priorities. 

I grew up on the outer edges of North York, and have slowly moved more and more downtown, going from Willowdale, to Don Mills, to Yonge/Eglinton, to the St Lawrence Market. And I work in Don Mills and a number of our buildings are deep in the heart of Scarborough. Very different worlds.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> Yeah the good ol' days, Mike chainsaws and reaps the short term gains and Uncle Ernie and Uncle Daltie figure out how to restore things from chaos. Where is ol chainsaw now a days? Partner in a firm no doubt.


Restore things? Dalt has just feathered his nest with Ontario's lucre and continues to overspend. What is he "fixing" again?


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Macfury said:


> Restore things? Dalt has just feathered his nest with Ontario's lucre and continues to overspend. What is he "fixing" again?


Restore should be "patch things up".


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> Restore should be "patch things up".


By making electricity unaffordable, establishing E-health, introducing the HSTand driving business out of the province? Bully for Dalt.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Macfury said:


> By making electricity unaffordable, establishing E-health, introducing the HSTand driving business out of the province? Bully for Dalt.


MacFury: on the Hydro question it was good ol' Chainsaw Mike who wanted to let Hydro rise even higher than it is now. Ernie quashed the privatisation of Hydro One. I'm sure you'll respond and say that privatization of Hydro One would have kept prices down....Mike knew that prices had to rise.

Ah the good ol' days!


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Ah yes, some Harris bashing. He did what he had to do after the Rae years. THAT was a sorry mess that left the province in dire shape. The Rae years were very dark years for those of us trying to keep a roof over our heads. The middle class got clobbered. 

As far as the downsizing goes there's another side to the story I never hear mentioned by the bashers. Prior to the city taking on the costs of welfare the city was on the hook for all our education costs. It was a separate part of our tax bills and was getting larger each year. The bill was huge. Education spending had exploded with the teacher's unions demands. The other problem was there was no consistency in curriculum across the province. Children who moved in or out of the city had a difficult time. It was agreed upon that education should become an entirely provincial matter rather than left to each district. In return each area was asked to take care of their social needs. It was thought that the local governments would have more understanding of their needs than coming from Queens Park. 

At the time of the switch over in expenditures Toronto was actually on the winning side hence why everyone saw their tax bills drop. Harris never forced any of this on anyone. It was agreed upon mutually by all municipalities.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

adagio said:


> At the time of the switch over in expenditures Toronto was actually on the winning side hence why everyone saw their tax bills drop. Harris never forced any of this on anyone. It was agreed upon mutually by all municipalities.


This has been completely forgotten by most people. It's now just lots of hand-wringing about being "downloaded."


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

adagio said:


> harris never forced any of this on anyone. It was agreed upon mutually by all municipalities.


lol!:d:d:d


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> MacFury: on the Hydro question it was good ol' Chainsaw Mike who wanted to let Hydro rise even higher than it is now. Ernie quashed the privatisation of Hydro One. I'm sure you'll respond and say that privatization of Hydro One would have kept prices down....Mike knew that prices had to rise.
> 
> Ah the good ol' days!


Higher than it is now? That would have made it the highest in North America at the time. Sounds like exaggeration. No, Dalt's Green Energy nightmare has already led to rate increases, with predicted increases of 15 to 25% over the next five years. The only saving grace is that he has driven so much industry out of the province or out of business that electrical demand has been reduced.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Macfury said:


> Higher than it is now? That would have made it the highest in North America at the time. Sounds like exaggeration. No, Dalt's Green Energy nightmare has already led to rate increases, with predicted increases of 15 to 25% over the next five years. The only saving grace is that he has driven so much industry out of the province or out of business that electrical demand has been reduced.


No sir...they knew Hydro was heavily subsidized especially for the sweet deals the auto manufacturers had. Look up the history it's only a google search away!


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

I've something else to add. When Rae was in power unemployment skyrocketed. Businesses packed up and left. They'd had it with being taxed to death. Harris really turned the Province around and unemployment levels were the envy of the country. Ontario was prosperous. Today we've become a have not Province.

I don't agree with everything that Harris did. Hydro and the 407 come to mind. McGuinty has done nothing to improve matters. Instead he signs ludicrous deals with Samsung that will have us paying the highest hydro rates in the country. What the heck is that man thinking? It will drive more manufacturing out of the province and unemployment rates will shoot high to the sky putting more strain on social services. I swear McGuinty is insane.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> No sir...they knew Hydro was heavily subsidized especially for the sweet deals the auto manufacturers had. Look up the history it's only a google search away!


I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. Why not link to what you mean?


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

jimbotelecom said:


> lol!:d:d:d


Why do you laugh at the truth? The municipalities were jumping in glee for getting rid of their education costs.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Macfury said:


> I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. Why not link to what you mean?


How about: Mike Harris Hydro One Policy


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

adagio said:


> Why do you laugh at the truth? The municipalities were jumping in glee for getting rid of their education costs.



If you can recall the people living the municipalities were soundly against amalgamation.

What's not to laugh at?


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> How about: Mike Harris Hydro One Policy


No. I remember the policy. What are YOU trying to say about it?


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Sonal said:


> Well, it is and it isn't. The TTC serves downtown far better than the 'burbs--it's not so important outside of downtown. We have festivals of all kinds in downtown every week, we have an art scene of sorts developing in pockets, but many people outside of downtown only really know about the biggest of these--funding for such things is less important to people who aren't aware of it. The homelessness problem is different. Crime is different--meaning that there are pockets of the 'burbs that are far worse than most of downtown, but not everyone in the 'burbs seems to realize that. You don't get a lot of people biking to work from Ellesmere & Morningside, and you don't get a lot of people driving to work from the Annex.
> 
> It's one big city, but with very different priorities.


Sure it's one city... that's my point; not that it isn't full of disparities. In fact the socio-economic disparities are now so large it threatens the city as a whole.

The TTC serves downtown better than the burbs because there's no money in putting busses everywhere in the burbs. They don't make money because the population densities are too low. It was fine in the days of heavy subsidizing by the province but now the TTC is starved for cash and unprofitable routes must be under-serviced or axed altogether. Not a great long term plan and it is in fact a vicious circle; the crappier the mass transit service, the less riders there are, the smaller the revenues, the more the fleet ages into decrepitude, requiring ever steeper levels of service, etc.

Had there been better planning from the get-go things might have turned out differently. As it stands now the Hamilton-COTU-Coburg axis is a welter of fighting transit fiefdoms marked by a lamentable lack of strategic coordination and bad administration. The TTC's management miscues play a large role in this epic mess. It's no wonder people take cars everywhere (those who can afford them, natch) and it's no wonder we are facing gridlock.


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Macfury said:


> No. I remember the policy. What are YOU trying to say about it?


Simple - A privatized Hydro One would have raised rates higher than the current subsidized rates.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

jimbotelecom said:


> Simple - A privatized Hydro One would have raised rates higher than the current subsidized rates.


Duh! If you subsidize them, you pay for electricity through taxes instead. I'm referring to McGuinty's purchase of "Green Energy" at 8 times market rate.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Max said:


> The TTC serves downtown better than the burbs because there's no money in putting busses everywhere in the burbs. They don't make money because the population densities are too low. It was fine in the days of heavy subsidizing by the province but now the TTC is starved for cash and unprofitable routes must be under-serviced or axed altogether. Not a great long term plan and it is in fact a vicious circle; the crappier the mass transit service, the less riders there are, the smaller the revenues, the more the fleet ages into decrepitude, requiring ever steeper levels of service, etc.
> 
> Had there been better planning from the get-go things might have turned out differently. As it stands now the Hamilton-COTU-Coburg axis is a welter of fighting transit fiefdoms marked by a lamentable lack of strategic coordination and bad administration. The TTC's management miscues play a large role in this epic mess. It's no wonder people take cars everywhere (those who can afford them, natch) and it's no wonder we are facing gridlock.


Well, I agree with you. And I do think that if there were better transit in the burbs, there would be less of an urban/suburban divide, in that all that life and vibrancy that we have in downtown would be more accessible from say, Scarberia. 

The other part of your vicious circle is that the worse the outer reaches are served, the less priority the TTC, etc., receives from those voters, the less priority it gets in council, etc.

I keep thinking of my ex-in-laws. Nice people, lived around in Malvern and then moved down around Cederbrae a little over 10 years ago, and yet "downtown" was this faraway, distant and scary place to them..... after Malvern? Really?


----------



## eMacMan (Nov 27, 2006)

Any one who thinks privatizing the grid is a good idea should look at Alberta. We pay the same rate to the supplier as would have happened prior to privatization. However post privatization bills include a whack of gouge fees that double the amount we actually pay.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

groovetube said:


> I guess your, 'good leadership', did didleysquat for downtown Winnipeg eh.


They didn't, and nobody wanted them to either. The burbs offer so many more advantages: more space, less crime, less stress, abundant _free_ parking, cleaner, less noise, more green space, better schools, better rec facilities, better shopping, etc. Wildlife too! I have deer walk through my yard regularly.

I can't understand why anyone would want to even *go* downtown in any city, let alone live there.


----------



## i-rui (Sep 13, 2006)

even opening up hydro & gas to 3rd party delivery companies has been a disaster in ontario with their deceptive & unethical contract practices.

i'd never trust the private sector with a public utility.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

bsenka said:


> They didn't, and nobody wanted them to either. The burbs offer so many more advantages: more space, less crime, less stress, abundant _free_ parking, cleaner, less noise, more green space, better schools, better rec facilities, better shopping, etc. Wildlife too! I have deer walk through my yard regularly.
> 
> I can't understand why anyone would want to even *go* downtown in any city, let alone live there.


Yes, and here in Toronto, we have roughly 700,000 people who can't understand why people would live in the suburbs when they can be downtown.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Sonal said:


> Yes, and here in Toronto, we have roughly 700,000 people who can't understand why people would live in the suburbs when they can be downtown.


Why? Love of noise and concrete?


----------



## jimbotelecom (May 29, 2009)

Macfury said:


> Duh! If you subsidize them, you pay for electricity through taxes instead. I'm referring to McGuinty's purchase of "Green Energy" at 8 times market rate.


Far be it from me to support Dalton. Please show me an electrical utility that has not introduced Wind, and Solar into their grids in the last 5 years. The alternative in Ontario is to build a nuke or 2 so that we don't have to buy capacity from the U.S. A new Nuke is 10 to 15 years of construction. And then there are the costs and cost over-runs.

Yeah, conservative administrations sign long term subsidy arrangements with GM and Ford, the Libs continue the same policy.

Ah the good ol' days.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

bsenka said:


> Why? Love of noise and concrete?


I have a hunch you don't actually want to understand, you just want to argue about why downtown is bad and the suburbs are good, and I find I'm much happier not debating with people whose minds are made up.

In any case, I lived in a really wonderful area of the burbs, but it just wasn't me. Starting moving more and more into downtown, and haven't looked back.


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Sonal said:


> I have a hunch you don't actually want to understand, you just want to argue about why downtown is bad and the suburbs are good, and I find I'm much happier not debating with people whose minds are made up.


And your mind is not made up?

Please, I really do want to know what the advantages of downtown are. It's not a barb, I honestly cannot think of a single positive. Enlighten me.

FWIW, I used to live downtown. I found I spent most of my time going TO the burbs for shopping, nightlife, festivals, parks, etc. Eventually I just moved closer to where I was going all the time anyway.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Sounds like it ain't your cuppa tea bsenka, but for me it's an easy answer: I love street life. I love people thronging the sidewalks - the more the merrier - going about their day. I dig being able to walk a handful of minutes north for some tasty Indian grub and scarce minutes away for gourmet Italian or a great Irish pub with oysters galore. Walk a bit south-east and I'm at a French bistro with excellent cuisine and an outdoor patio that kicks butt. It's the foodie in me who loves downtown life. And since I like to take photographs, I enjoy shooting buildings both grand and dilapidated, and strange back alleyways and other cool secret pockets where some urbanites dwell. I like the Portlands and its resonant sense of history and renewed expectation. I like going out to the very end of the Leslie Street spit and shooting what I find there. I like the adrenalin buzz of the centre core. I like independent hardware stores and cafes and I try to avoid the big fast food and coffee chains... there's plenty to choose from. I like walking and cycling through the ravines and parks which dot the city. I like going to Harbourfront in the summer to attend some live music. That's another thing: I don't get out as much as I used to but I also love seeing live music - rock 'n roll in the west end, great jazz down by where Sonal lives, and the jazz fest more out my way, in the Beach. Live music is another huge draw for me. Culture in general - the abundance of writers, painters, musicians, potters, jewellers and metal smiths. Not saying you can't find that elsewhere but it's the sheer abundance in one concentrated area that buzzes me.

There's tons more, but that's a start.


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

bsenka said:


> And your mind is not made up?
> 
> Please, I really do want to know what the advantages of downtown are. It's not a barb, I honestly cannot think of a single positive. Enlighten me.
> 
> FWIW, I used to live downtown. I found I spent most of my time going TO the burbs for shopping, nightlife, festivals, parks, etc. Eventually I just moved closer to where I was going all the time anyway.


No, it isn't. I can think of many advantages of living in the 'burbs, but it doesn't suit me. I haven't made up my mind that the suburbs are awful and no one in their right mind would want to live there. 

Maybe downtown Winnipeg is different from downtown Toronto. Max mentioned is pretty dead there--not so in Toronto. 

We have parks, nightlife, festivals, shopping, etc. in downtown. Heck, in summer we have so many festivals that there's usually several on at once, and there's no way you could hit all of them. There are some of the big box stores (in smaller boxes) downtown, as well as your typical mall-stores, but then in addition to that there are a lot more interesting and independent retailers that can survive downtown because of passing street traffic. We have a lot of green space between large parks and ravines, and yes, we get wildlife too. There are deer in Toronto in the Don River ravine, I've seen hawks flying in the city parks. Love the Toronto Islands too--it's a short walk to the ferry dock for me, and then I'm in the midst of beautiful green space and water with one of the best views of the city skyline. 

There are dozens interesting restaurants and food places around here. Max's area has been developing into a little foodie-haven, my area hosts one of the best Farmers' Markets in the world (according to Food & Wine magazine anyway), and walking around you can find anything from cheap and cheerful little food joints with awesome food to 5-star celebrity chef restaurants. There is tons of theatre from the big splashy productions to the small, fringey independents, all within walking distance of one another. 

We have gorgeous and varied architecture, that ranges from lovely old Victorians to hypermodern glass atrocities all side-by-side.

Some of our highest crime areas are in the 'burbs and not downtown. The downtown core is highly walkable and transit is convenient so many urban dwellers just don't bother with a car. (Heck, the main reason I have a car is that I work in the burbs, and I need to cart around heavy things now and then.) 

But mostly, I love the vibe, the energy, the sense that stuff is happening, the being able to walk to everything I could ever think of doing and then some. My neighbourhood gets shut down to cars every now and again for festivals, and I love that I can step out my door and be in the midst of everything. 

I mean hey, where I lived in the suburbs was great. We were right off a ravine, we were a 5 minute drive from two malls, we had neighbourhood kids drawing chalk hopscotch boards in the middle of the street because it was so quiet there. It was wonderful for someone who wants that kind of life. But I don't.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> That's another thing: I don't get out as much as I used to but I also love seeing live music - rock 'n roll in the west end, great jazz down by where Sonal lives, and the jazz fest more out my way, in the Beach. Live music is another huge draw for me. Culture in general - the abundance of writers, painters, musicians, potters, jewellers and metal smiths. Not saying you can't find that elsewhere but it's the sheer abundance in one concentrated area that buzzes me.


The Jazz Festival is, to me, Hell on Earth! No parking as the great unwashed press in on dirty beatniks with saxophones!


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

LOL

Perhaps your first mistake is to take a car, MF. That should be obvious. Anyone who's been to that nabe knows how horrendous parking is.

But given your proclivities, it is clear you are better off playing strictly homie. I picture you barricaded in your homestead, tinfoil hat pressed neatly into place, as you type up angry rants and fire them off like precious darts. Fire away, good sir!


----------



## bsenka (Jan 27, 2009)

Max said:


> Sounds like it ain't your cuppa tea bsenka.


I guess so. Just reading your post as well as Sonal's was almost giving me a panic attack. To borrow a phrase from you, it sounds like the ninth level of hell!


----------



## adagio (Aug 23, 2002)

Hey, we're all different. I lived on Queen for a year and a half. It was cool being down there for a while but it isn't for me. The novelty wore off and I'm glad to live close to the border. I have all the green and nature a city person could ask for right outside my door. I revel in quiet walks alone with few people around. Just me, the ducks, the muskrats and occasional deer. Nothing beats the breeze off the lake on a hot summer day. When I crave a bit of action I'm not that far from it. I do appreciate the shopping the downtown offers. I adore the one of kind shops and places like Kensington are a gem. I hate malls and rarely enter them. I guess what I'm saying is I don't like traditional idea of suburbia either. I'd go mad living in most parts of Mississauga. I've found my ideal place to park myself. Others here obviously have found their place too even though it is very different than mine.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> LOL
> 
> Perhaps your first mistake is to take a car, MF. That should be obvious. Anyone who's been to that nabe knows how horrendous parking is.
> 
> But given your proclivities, it is clear you are better off playing strictly homie. I picture you barricaded in your homestead, tinfoil hat pressed neatly into place, as you type up angry rants and fire them off like precious darts. Fire away, good sir!


Max, I'm not driving through there to attend the festival--but merely shocked that it's there when I have more important errands to perform that require parking.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

You're right!

How dare these selfish SOBs have their festivals, the charity runs on the roads, hell the santa claus parade has GOTTA GOOO!

'cause MF and co wants to park their car.

In fact, we should start leveling buildings, because, we need to widen the roads, and build more parking buildings!

Because we need to provide parking, for those who can't bring themselves to be commoners and take the damn, TTC.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

MF, you needn't be shocked. Just take the default position that parking and traffic in said neighbourhood is always effed, and you'll do fine. Still a nice place to visit, although my own preference is for the boardwalk rather than Queen St.

Bsenka: goes to show we all have different sensibilities. What feels good to you is utterly banal and forlorn to me. What feels good to me is something that makes you feel panicky. At least we can talk about it without resorting to insults, so there's something good to reflect on.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Well now that we're making nice, and perhaps the suburbs is more important than the downtown etc., (insert more inflammatory useless nonsense here) is slowing down, I saw this article in the Toronto Star, that I thought offers a decent view I can agree with.
Travers: Voters have every right to punish politicians - thestar.com

edit:, another good view. Ford Supporters Aren?t Just Suburban Stereotypes | The Mark


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> Because we need to provide parking, for those who can't bring themselves to be commoners and take the damn, TTC.


The TTC _IS_ for peons, slaves and assorted socialists, so at least we're in agreement here.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Ahh, now we're getting to the meat of it. It's not that the system is troubled and needs work - it's simply _beneath_ you! 
The imperatives of class must always be paramount.


----------



## Dr.G. (Aug 4, 2001)

Macfury said:


> The TTC _IS_ for peons, slaves and assorted socialists, so at least we're in agreement here.


YouTube - Capitalism, Socialism and Communism Documentary part 1


----------



## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> The TTC _IS_ for peons, slaves and assorted socialists, so at least we're in agreement here.


Just think of it as a chauffeur-sharing program...


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> The TTC _IS_ for peons, slaves and assorted socialists, so at least we're in agreement here.


Is misanthropy a prerequisite for Libertarianism?


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

But he's a _cheerful_ misanthropist whose life is his own!


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> But he's a _cheerful_ misanthropist whose life is his own!


mrjimmy is so far left he doesn't recognize a gag when he sees it.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

Whereas you're so far right, you don't get that he's having just as much fun as you!


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

Max said:


> Whereas you're so far right, you don't get that he's having just as much fun as you!


You're so dead centre you didn't realize I was joking with mrjimmy.


----------



## SINC (Feb 16, 2001)

Anyone who insists on being called mister is suspect to begin with.


----------



## Max (Sep 26, 2002)

And that completes this round of ripe ripostes, ladies and germs.


----------



## whatiwant (Feb 21, 2008)

Speaking of smear... 
http://bit.ly/cXDSJh


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> mrjimmy is so far left he doesn't recognize a gag when he sees it.


Aah the old 'I was joking' retort! It resides next to 'I didn't do it', popularized by Bart Simpson. Sprinkled liberally (and I do mean..) with the attempt to discredit your opponent chestnut.

Well played Sir!

You do realize that there is a fine line between comedy and truth, non?


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

SINC said:


> Anyone who insists on being called mister is suspect to begin with.


Who says it's Mister? Who says I'm insisting?


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

jawknee said:


> Speaking of smear...
> Rob Ford's Team Created a Fake Twitter Account, and This Is It - Torontoist


Do they have Twitter in the suburbs?


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

jawknee said:


> Speaking of smear...
> Rob Ford's Team Created a Fake Twitter Account, and This Is It - Torontoist


yow.

And rob ford's bestest friend sue ann levy in there too.


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

mrjimmy said:


> You do realize that there is a fine line between comedy and truth, non?


The truth is that I took the TTC on_ three_ separate occasions last year--six rides in total--and clearly I don't think of myself as a peon or a socialist. As a regular TTC patron I would have been criticizing myself!


----------



## Macfury (Feb 3, 2006)

groovetube said:


> yow.
> 
> And rob ford's bestest friend sue ann levy in there too.



Campaigners used to just write fake letters to the editor--now they just create fake Twitter characters. Imagine in that realm of millions of legitimate Twitter users, that one account was a fake!! Makes you sort of cynical about social networking.


----------



## mrjimmy (Nov 8, 2003)

Macfury said:


> The truth is that I took the TTC on_ three_ separate occasions last year--six rides in total--and clearly I don't think of myself as a peon or a socialist. As a regular TTC patron I would have been criticizing myself!


Three occasions in one year... seems regular enough to me... 

It's good for you to get out street level (and below) with the common man. See what they're up to. If they get too close, you can spray them with a little Lysol and make that 'shoo' gesture with your hand.


----------



## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Macfury said:


> Campaigners used to just write fake letters to the editor--now they just create fake Twitter characters. Imagine in that realm of millions of legitimate Twitter users, that one account was a fake!! Makes you sort of cynical about social networking.


I think the fake twitter account was a minor revelation yes macfury, good catch sir.


----------

