# Graphic Designers?



## JAGflyer (Jan 10, 2005)

I know there are a few graphic designers here (MannyP for example ) with lots of nice work. I am considering this as a possible career. I am not a good at drawing or on paper art but I am quite good with computerized stuff. I have taken the communication technology course which deals with some graphic design (Corel Draw) but mostly video and analoge editting. The grade 11 course (next year) deals with photoshop and video editting using Premier (No Macs at our school). What kind of education have you people pursuded that got you into the graphic design field? The only graphics programs I have learnt/use are Photoshop (for editting photos) and Corel Draw (print/web graphics). Do I need to start to try out InDesign and Ilustrator? I am just looking for some direction here. 

Thanks


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## Barnahog (Feb 19, 2005)

Coming from someone who knew a whole pile of software in high school, but neglected even sketching things and learning the basics...

My best advice for you would be to not focus on the tools (software) so much, but rather try and study foundation type things. Typography, colours, etc... 

I can almost assure you that you will need to start sketching at some point. Even if you never end up using sketches as something representative as final products, it's the best way to shape out ideas you have.

Also, most places that require portfolio interviews to get into will also require a sketchbook for them to look at, so it's practically mandatory. 

I would recommend going for the Design program at York University/Sheridan College (a joint program between the two). 

Do as many side projects at your school as you can, volunteer to design sites or whatever. 

P.S. InDesign is one program you should learn, especially for getting into layouts for newsletters etc...


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

The basic programs one should know for design are (at the very least) Photoshop and InDesign -- Illustrator is optional, but definitely benefitial. Having said that, there is a great deal of theory behind Graphic Design that's more than just using the programs -- Typography (anatomy, families, classifications), Colour Theory (harmonies, etc.), as well as principles like elements of design (like composition and composition systems), design elements, and so much more.

If you're not an artist -- the best thing you can do is start picking up a pencil and get used to scribbling ideas! Roughs and thumbnails are what separates the boys from the men... so to speak. Try to at least take some basic art lessons if you can.

Also, and this is a very, very, very important point (as mentioned before): Software is just a tool, if you don't have an idea of what you are doing, it makes it difficult to communicate ideas through your designs. Don't try to speed through your education with a 1-year quickie program -- immerse yourself in a 3-year program. I cannot stress this enough. This isn't to say you can't become a great designer... but the exposure is beneficial in the long run and helps you develop a solid portfolio.


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## JAGflyer (Jan 10, 2005)

I am an avid photographer. I photograph a lot of stuff and work on the photos in photoshop. That is how I get a lot of my photoshop practice. I have been told I have a good eye for photographic composition. I'll look into that stuff. Thanks guys.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> . I am not a good at drawing or on paper art


sorry. look for something else. if you were truly meant for this you would have sketchbooks FULL of drawings by now. design is a lifelong pursuit, not a software program. hope that doesn't sound too harsh but i hope this keeps you from wasting your time.


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## Barnahog (Feb 19, 2005)

> sorry. look for something else. if you were truly meant for this you would have sketchbooks FULL of drawings by now.


I completely disagree. It's not that unusual that someone's interest in design might start from computers and software nowadays. JAGflyer has a good a chance as anyone, I mean he/she stated they were only in the middle of high school. I started drawing AFTER high school (but did layout junk here and there in school).

JAGflyer: You're not wasting your time. Try and draw every day. Not just to become better at drawing, but to keep yourself developing new ideas and toying with them.

If you're around the GTA, investigate the program at York, it's a big 4 year Honours program for design. Also, when visiting there, I have never seen so many Apple Cinema Displays and Powermacs in a single room before.


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## Sonal (Oct 2, 2003)

Both the pencil and the computer are design tools. Neither is necessarily better--they each have their strengths. I think good designers can begin in either media. 

That said, there is a lot to be learned from a more traditional medium like a pencil, Because software does so much, I think it can shield you from really learning some of the fundamentals of art, design and visual communication. And when you're in a meeting, and you start describing a concept to someone how just doesn't understand your words, there's nothing like a fast pencil sketch to show them what you're thinking. Avoiding something because you're not as good at it is just limiting.

Pros use specific tools for specific tasks, but JAGflyer, note that those will likely change before you go pro. Learn whatever programs you have available to you--anything you learn now will help you learn faster later on--but also experiment with other things.

It's good to have career goals in high school, but don't overfocus on graphic design--you may stumble upon something a little different that you like better. Honestly, there are so many types of jobs out there that I wasn't even aware of in high school--why specialize when you don't know what's out there? 

I'm a big fan of diversity of knowledge, so if the artistic world seems really appealing as a career, take time to try a lot of different things in that field. Graphic design, photography, art--whatever. The knowledge will build on itself.


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## spinz (Feb 1, 2003)

Yeah I disagree as well.

Its like saying you can't make music if you don't play an instrument. Computers and software are more of a starting point now. I imagine some kids are learning how to type before learning how to write stuff by hand.

I say in terms of programs. I feel that Yes Photoshop is number one but Illustrator is a bit more important than Indesign. But the real important thing is understanding those basics ... eg when to use a program like photoshop, when to use illustrator, resolution (for print or screen). Loads of simple stuff that you need to learn that a surprising amount of people don't know!


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## scootsandludes (Nov 28, 2003)

I never really picked up a sketch pad and pencil until after high school either. If I could do it all again, I would have picked up the pencil sooner.

If you plan on doing anything creative, you better start soon, even if you like taking pictures, it's better to sketch out a concept before you start shooting. Nobody will care about how bad your drawings are. I still sketch stick figures when I have to. It's not the quality of drawing but the idea behind it. That's what interviewers want to see when they interview you for school. They want to see that you can come up with an idea. This is what we call "The Design Process".

A lot of the stuff that's out there is pretty simple stuff, and any two bit designer can do it, there really isn't anything all that special. But what separates something good from something outstanding is the idea.

Start carrying a sketch book with you. It doesn't have to be all drawings, you can write down ideas as they come to you. Some interviewers will even agree that a rough sketchbook is more important than a perfectly polished portfolio.

Now the part that you really want to hear. Forget everything you know about Corel, nobody uses it, I didn't even know they were still producing it. I've never even seen a studio to even have a copy of it. The only studios that have it are the ones that design ads for Corel, because they have to use it. Otherwise, complete waste of time.
Photoshop is obviously mandatory, I would say Illustrator would be next. Back in the days of OS9, I would have said Quark. But since Quark took so long in developing OSX software, people started using Illustrator as their layout program, and it's fine for single pages, but you really need something more powerful if there's more than one page. That's where InDesign comes in. This is wonderful stuff, works flawlessly with PS and Illus. and uses most of the same quick keys, unlike Quark. they always did things their own way, and now designers are turning their backs at Quark, and they deserve it, they shot their own foot off. But you should still have a understanding of Quark. A lot of studios are still using it, because they always have. It's a transition period right now, and it takes time to completely switch over to Indesign.

Did I mention you should start a sketch book? It's the soul to your portfolio.

vince


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## BravePilgrim (Jan 28, 2004)

There seem to be quite a bit of graphic designers around these days, but if you have the talent and perseverance to make it a career, there's always room for one more. It can be very rewarding but be prepared to work weekends and long hours...

The biggest problem with many graphic designers these days is the lack of knowledge in pre-press and print requirements which can lead to costly mistakes. To learn the inner workings of the printing process should be mandatory to anyone learning graphic design unless you plan to design for the web only.

Almost forgot... do yourself a favor and drop Corel. If you want to make it in the real world; learn Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign ( Quark is also recommended cuz' it still rules the printing industry ).


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

First off, decide if you are interested in Print or Web graphics... Anyone who tells you they are the same probably sucks at both... neither is better or worse but the specs are different.

Once that choice is made, find out what software is manditory...
I can only comment on the print side. I do very well thank you, most of my web friends from the early nineties are in other fields now...

If you decide to go into print, {publishing, Advertising, Newspapers, etc...}

Learn Quark, almost every job posting still wants Quark knowledge.
Then learn Indesign, It is gaining momentum.
Illustrator and Photoshop, and Acrobat are important too, but unless you are exceptionally talented and lucky, you will spend your first couple of years hammering out layouts as opposed to designing amazing art.

Get used to that Idea, most of the "I'm gonna turn the Graphics world on its ear" types become disallusioned when they find out that they actually have to work for a living...

Absorb everything you can in school, but be prepared for the day you meet your first real guru, who has time to teach you how this crap really works. Stay close to them and learn everything they have time to teach you...

Takes most print people a year or two to find out how much they don't know... that is when the fun really begins...

My little diatribe may sound disheartening, at first, do not be afraid, it is worth it and pompous arrogant asses you meet on the way are usually just that...


{unless it is me... I'm fine once you get to know me}


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

I have to agree with TroutMask - design has to be part of your soul, your being ... this isn't something you learn, this is something you were born with. 

Now there is nothing wrong with wanting to be as there is a need for production designers too.


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## diemodern (Mar 17, 2005)

You're in a good position right now. You're still in highschool ... plenty of time to get to where you want to be (you see people now in their 30's trying to change careers and taking design/production courses and what not - good luck to them).

But the field in definitely oversaturated. Everyone and their mother is a graphic designer these days - all you need is a computer and a file sharing program. That's why there's so much BAD design around ... it still boggles me that some people make a living doing terrible web & print.

Pick up a pencil. You don't have to be some crazy good artist in this sense. Sketch your ideas and layouts. Keep a pad on you at all times so you can jot down ideas that come to you. Look at colour combinations in nature - for the most part, nature is always right. Observe design around you in your everyday life. Read design books, design blogs, immerse yourself in design. There are plenty of resources on the net.

There are a few routes you can take.

Decide which way you want to go .. web or print ... and take a 2-3 year design program at a college. Focus on one and dabble in the other. Guaranteed you'll be working on both at one point or another ... whether it be professionally or personally. 

If you really want to go the distance (which I never did), take some art courses at school if possible (you're in grade 11 - can you still take art if you haven't before? I forget - it's been a while) and start building a creative portfolio. Then once you think you're ready ... apply to OCAD. 

Goodluck


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I somewhat agree with the idea that some people are born for various tasks, however design and art _can_ be learned, although it can be a very rough road for some. For some, it's a calling that comes later in life... don't ignore your gut instinct. You don't need to be able to draw a human figure to be a graphic artist -- in fact, some of the most recognized designs lack any actual imagery created by the pencil (or pen, or brush, etc.) Being creative with typography, shapes, imagery, and colour is what design is about. Pick up How Design Magazine and you'll see what I'm talking about. I work with a couple of designers who can't draw, yet produce amazing designs on a daily basis. Their thumbnails, while crude, often end in a beautiful well-thought piece.

Photography is an excellent skill for designers, as it allows one to add a person touch (a signature) to their work without resorting to using stock imagery... the same goes for a person who can paint, or draw well. I often use my own illustrations, 3-D designs, and photography (admittedly, I use that term loosely) for designs that I produce for the web, flash, and print design (like brochures, posters, annual reports, booklets, kit folders, promo pieces, etc.)


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

uhmm ... you can draw for crap and still become a graphic designer. although it would probably be beneficial to have some sort of sketching skills, some ppl can rough out there "ideas" on the computer fairly quickly. graphic programs are just another tool that ppl learn to use. just like doing fine art has different mediums ... drawing, painting, sculpting, etc ... some pp may be able to sculpt but can't draw for beans!


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Artistic talent is a bonus but do not let that put you off...

The average age of our "designers" is under 30 - they are paid relatively little and are disposable...


Our skilled Production artist's average age in in the early 40's and they are difficult to replace. Designers who talk down about production generally fall into the "Pompous Asss" catagory and have no clue as to the true level of esteem in which they are held.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> The average age of our "designers" is under 30 - they are paid relatively little and are disposable...


jamg is right. if you want to get paid sh*t, have everyone treat you like sh*t, then become a designer.

i certainly didn't plan to become one. i sort of 'lucked' into it after becoming a technical illustrator.

actually jamg is not correct. the design field is quite diverse - there are low skill, low pay jobs and then there is the opposite. it depends on your skill level, talent, and to a large degree luck, where you will land. i suppose it is no different than any other profession in that regard.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

Creativity is the key.
If you are creative enough you will use your creativity to sell yourself to potential employers in a way that is truly unique to you. If you can't draw....then you must be creative in a way that people look beyond this.

I don't think people truly understand the true nature of coming up with an idea that is truly truly new to the world. It is the hardest thing imaginable and very very few people have that skill.....a lot of the time it is just re-iterating other peoples ideas in a new way.

That is why I admire modern artists so much because they are creating things that really have never been seen before in that context.....and that ain't easy!

ramble ramble

I would learn to draw though if I were you, it will teach you the to understand form, scale, texture, light and perspective in a way you will never learn playing around on a computer.
I found 6 hrs a day at art school doing life drawing the most tedious thing in the world.....but it helped me out a lot and I have now developed a certain style to my work that (quite strangley to me as I'm my own worst critic) people actually pay for!

It's a **** life as a designer because you are only as good as your last project....so you continually worry about each piece you do if it's the best you have in you....and when some account executive, whose only exposure to design is having a Karim Rashid garbage can, stands over your shoulder and tells you what something should look like you want to punch them.....really hard.

I am a 3D retail designer by the way (so my training and experience may or may not be accepted as valid contribution to this thread) and self confessed MannyP enthusiast!


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

The best thing I did back in high school was take a co-op at a print shop. That gave me an idea of how the industry works, at least the lower end. If you still enjoy it then go for it.

I first applied to Sheridan and wasn't accepted and they recommended that I took a fundamentals course, like the one they offered (how convenient!). Unless you have an extensive/unbelievable portfolio out of high school they usually do this. 

I later got accepted to the York/Sheridan program and it is definitely an excellent program. But I believe other colleges now offer degrees, other schools you may want to consider are OCS and George Brown. All I know is that if you plan on going to Sheridan, start saving now, when I graduated two years ago the tuition was up to $7500 a year (and is probably more now), plus you will require to travel to both Sheridan and York U. So if you don't have car, get a friend that does, or else you'll be screwed.

About the drawing part, we were told by several teachers that Graphic Designers are the idea people, we come up with concepts, and if you can get your idea across in your sketches then you'll be alright. Also I would get to love and worship type, look into the RGD, they have several books suggestions that would help (don't get theirs though). www.rgdontario.com. I know that Sheridan will sooner rip apart a letter set in Helvetica with underlined headings way before someone who draws stick figures. A good book right off the top of my head is "The Mac is not a Typewriter" by Robin Williams plus its like $15, I still refer to this on occasions.

Also start looking at design magazines like How and Print, that will give you a better idea of everything we do and what you are up against. I can tell you that people who do design are not in it for the money, they are in it more for the love of the profession. 

Good luck!


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

> I am a 3D retail designer by the way (so my training and experience may or may not be accepted as valid contribution to this thread)











(I have a fetish for prisma markers for some reason)

I'm sure retail design is very much valid with regards to design in general. There's a lot to be said about visualizing a layout in 3 dimensions where designing within space considerations, budget, manfacturing and branding restrictions while conveying ideas/emotions using shapes, colours and lines to attract a particular audience or theme. (Self-confessed Loafer fan!)



> ...and self confessed MannyP enthusiast!


Dude, that's one of the coolest thing anyone's said to me, and believe me, they usually say much worse stuff! 

... that, and when a guitarist got a tribal logo I created for his metal band tatooed onto his arm; and when I saw my hard work for a labour union's smear campaign was plastered all over Ottawa (buses, transit shelters, posters, ads, and billboards). Those are the highlights of my career. Yeah!


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

the low point in my career would be when i drew a cartoon of a 'Big Stick' bologna wiener riding a skateboard to school.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

« MannyP Design » said:


> Dude, that's one of the coolest thing anyone's said to me, and believe me, they usually say much worse stuff!


It's the cogs.....I could sit here all day watching the cogs! 
I dream of your cogs


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> the low point in my career would be when i drew a cartoon of a 'Big Stick' bologna wiener riding a skateboard to school.


ROTFLMAO......too funny!

That's friggin' class......get 'em printed on some t-shirts man, you'd make a killing!


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## diemodern (Mar 17, 2005)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> jamg is right. if you want to get paid sh*t, have everyone treat you like sh*t, then become a designer.



You guys are way off.

Are you out of your mind? I worked freelance for years and the least I made was $30/hr - sometimes up to $60/hr (although they were short contracts). 

Obviously that isn't case when you start out. Everyone pays their dues.

And NEVER have I been treated like 'sh*t'. There are difficult clients, as in any business ...


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

i was being facetious. i guess it doesn't come accross very well online.


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## diemodern (Mar 17, 2005)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> i was being facetious. i guess it doesn't come accross very well online.


oh.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

regardless of if you agree with me or not... when a skilled production person leaves a company the hiring process involves {or should} skills testing and knowledge assesment...


When a designer/concept person leaves, the process involve swinging a dead cat around your head until you find someone whose ego will not stop them from ducking.

If you walk into a design position, two days after leaving school, you are being underpaid. Either you are that good or you will be a body in a chair...

But, you'll find your own way...

{Still not trying to discourage you... just keep your eyes open and loose the rose coloured glasses}


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> loose the rose coloured glasses}


yes that is the most important thing to take from this discussion.


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## donnarino (Apr 25, 2005)

As many others have mentioned, you need to get a design education so you will know the fundamentals of design (colour theory, typography, etc.) and not just the software bcse a computer does not a designer make.

Also, don't necessarily confuse a designer w an illustrator. As a designer you will probably find yourself sketching out ideas on paper before you set to work but those need not be works of art. Just showing where you will be placing elements as you see fit before you start mocking it up using a computer. Most designers hire illustrators or buy stock art if necessary.

Nowadays, the paths of web and print designers cross a lot (I mainly do print work for corporate clients but have also created banner ads and web/email graphics and am expected to know basic html and/or Dreamweaver).

Print Designers routinely use Quark or InDesign (my bet is the schools will be teaching you ID), Photoshop and Illustrator (or Corel tho Illustrator is more widely used), Acrobat, Dreamweaver (at least the basics).

Web Designers routinely use Illustrator or Freehand, Photoshop, Imageready, Fireworks, Flash, Dreamweaver, html and other langs.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

JAMG said:


> regardless of if you agree with me or not... when a skilled production person leaves a company the hiring process involves {or should} skills testing and knowledge assesment...
> 
> 
> When a designer/concept person leaves, the process involve swinging a dead cat around your head until you find someone whose ego will not stop them from ducking.
> ...


 Now that sounds like someone has issues. 

Out of curiosity, where do you work? Feel free to PM if you like, if you don't want everyone to know, but it sounds like there are some serious issues at your job. I've yet to come across a designer with a serious ego problem (albeit quirky or eccentric ones occasionally), nor a production designer with a knife ready to stab me. 

Yet.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

wow, up until this thread, i didn't know how many gfx ppl there were here. so i guess i'll hit you all up with some help. hope ya all don't mind.  

any suggestions on how a 30-something year old can get ahead in graphics design, having switched out of IT about a year or so ago. graduated with computer science and fine art studio. have a basic portfolio with more personal work than professional work. never bothered with a portfolio before since i never put thought into using one in pursuit of a career.

currently working at two small printing company doing mainly page layout and pre-press work. first place uses solely PCs, the second place i started working at in the evenings are on Macs. no formal training with any graphics program, but i self taught myself Adobe Suite, Quark and Corel.

my Mini purchase was of course for my career, but i have yet to make any good use of it. i've found that anything i can do on the Mac i can pretty much do on my PC. my Mini, i find, is only to get me use to the OS. sorry to say that the luster of owning it has already faded!


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> i find, is only to get me use to the OS. sorry to say that the luster of owning it has already faded!


are you selling then?


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Go here: http://www.rgdontario.com/ There is a list of books, articles, and links and such about design that are a good start.

Also, Robin Williams' (no, not _that_ Robin Williams  ) books are pretty good for a quick introduction: 
The Non-designer's Design Book, 
The Non-designer's Type Book.

Also, be sure to check out 
The Pantone Guide to Communication with Colour, 
and any of the Designer's Guide to Colour.

For learning more about software/design:
Layers Magazine, 
How Design Magazine, and 
Photoshop User Magazine
Before & After Magazine.


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> are you selling then?


hahaha ... NooOOoOoooooo ... in case i ever score some contract or freelance work, i need to keep my options open on what platform to work from!

nice try though! i'll keep you in mind if i change my mind!


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## MacME (Mar 15, 2005)

thanx MannyP, i'll check those out.


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## JumboJones (Feb 21, 2001)

The Elements of Typographical Style by Robert Bringhurst is also a very good book, every designer should own a copy or at least read it.


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## Pylonman (Aug 16, 2004)

Here's my 2¢ 
*History: From the beginning to present*
I grew up in a creative home and that is why I’m doing what I am today. We made our own Christmas presents, Halloween outfits and holiday odds and ends. My Mother did a stint the Ontario College Art and was always encouraging us to create. My Dad was an engineer and often sketched out his ideas on paper. 
When I was in highschool, my highest marked were in Art, Photography and English Media. After graduating, I did what everyone did at my school and went to University and took Communication Arts. But, I had a lot of problems with theory side and lack of "hands on", so my grades dropped and I was asked to leave my program. I still liked anything to do with media and art, so, I decided to follow my grandfather’s career path and look into Advertising. I did some research at the library and looked up courses at various colleges around Ontario. I ended up taking a 2 year Advertising program at Loyalist College in Belleville, Ontario and just loved it! Long hours, group work, tight deadlines and constantly creating. (first encounter with a Mac Classic and QuarkXPress) I really wish it was a 3 year program. To graduate, I did a 2 week internship at a big ad agency in downtown Toronto. After the internship, the Production Manager sat me down and asked what I could do. I rambled off a long list, but a I didn’t have a specific talent. So, to get my foot in the door, I decided to take a 2 year Graphic Design course out in BC (why not!)
I learned about typography, colour theory, layout, pre-press and the big idea. I was pushed by my prof to come up with a good idea first and then use a medium, such as, computers, paper or whatever to communicate that message. 
When I graduated, I was lucky to be at the right place at the right time and landed a job at an inhouse agency for a major home finishing franchise. I occasionally do some freelance on the side.

Ok, sorry for the blurb. I hope you didn't fall asleep  

*Portfolio Requirements* 
This a suggestion on how to be prepared for an interview/portfolio showing. Indivdual schools will have their own requirements. Buy a portfolio case. It’s handy for all your stuff and essential for photography prints. Make sure it is at least 12” wide by 18” long. (Hint, hint good early Christmas present.) I’ve got 2, one small and one large. Your portfolio case, however, does not have to be fancy or expensive. If you have no bling bling, a simple binder with a hard cover stock on the outside will do in most instances. 

Include samples of your work: 
- photographs. (Use of shapes, colour/black white balance, interesting angles, perspective, etc)
- a creative invite for a birthday party or special event 
- a business card, letterhead and envelope for your “company” (Self promotion)
- freelance work (paid or not i.e. web page for your church, volunteer work) 
- your resumé
- collect a sample of logos, ads or design you really admire and mount
- a doodle book. Draw anything or everything around you

Pick out 5 - 10 pieces you really like. Think about colour, use of type and layout. Mount your artwork neatly on a piece of card stock and number in order. When you go in for the interview, your interviewer might want you to explain your pieces or they quickly thumb through it. The interview is kinda like American Idol audition.

*Software*
Photoshop, Illustrator, Arcobat/Distiller, Streamline, Indesign, QuarkXPress (Due to Quarks shoddy tech support. All the newspapers on Vancouver Island have switched to Indesign), Fetch. Others to consider: Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Flash, Eudora, OS 9.2 

*Final thought*
Start doing anything to practice the craft. If you’re doing a job right now that doesn’t involve creativity, try to work it in. You must immerse yourself. Read magazines like “HOW” , Marketing Magazine and my favorite “AZURE”. 
Eat, breath and poop creativity.


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## agent4321 (Jun 25, 2004)

Damn I missed this thread and everything that's been said has been said, oh well.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Great post Pylonman!


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## sketch (Sep 10, 2004)

MacME said:


> any suggestions on how a 30-something year old can get ahead in graphics design, having switched out of IT about a year or so ago.


Count me in as one of those 30-somethings. As luck would have it, I ended up further away from design than I wanted for a number a years. But in the process, I've built up a portfolio that's... well... I guess more personal than professional (and more cartoony). There's not much you can do in IT. I've taken art courses in continuing education (Centennial and Sheridan) though and I'm always looking in design magazines. So definitely keep your IT nose in the creative world! 

My dream job is to work in a design studio (web) again but I admit, I'm intimidated by the competition I have out there in getting that dream job. I'm afraid having more personal stuff than professional work could discredit me as a hack. GULP!

I'll give rdgontario another look (I didn't like the site before) and check out the recommened books.


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## robert (Sep 26, 2002)

I am old school on the drawing issue. If you can't draw, design isn't for you. I,ve seen too many people waste time designing on a computer only to print out a small forest of crap.
You must eat and breath design if you want to be successfully as a designer.
just my two cents
R


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

I have a couple of comments BUT - since there are designers here -* a long time client needs a senior designer with good experience in the Quark and CS. Please contact me with a resume* GTA area.

Now back to the program  .....we've seen many students over the 20 years MacDoc has been around move into successful careers and I certainly like the headpaace of the graphic community in general. :clap:
One thing I advise all the students is to have a second skill set developing in parallel with "design."

Example - strong tech skills - OS troubleshooting, maintenance, "out to print" strengths etc

another might be a strong understanding of the technical side of web

Handskills - original work applied to computing is another area, tablet skills, retouching skills.

3D modeling, graphic animation still another

ALL have the fundamental design elements as part of the work and that's needed for sure but within the "design" field having a second skill set you are comfortable with is important in my mind. *I'd actually like to hear back from those that concur with this and what their specific value added skill might be.*

Having a strong developed secondary set of skills makes you far more valuable to an employer and might make the difference in getting the job over a competitor...I know for sure tech support aspects are in demand as a second skill set.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I couldn't agree more. My boss regaled me tales of people he would work with that essentially killed their livelihood by not adapting or developing a secondary (or tertiary) skillset to justify their place within the firm.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> I'd actually like to hear back from those that concur with this and what their specific value added skill might be.


- strong OS, troubleshooting skills. i set up and troubleshoot _everyone's_ computer, including the bookkeeper's sh*tbox pc.
- 3d. i design retail displays, racks, merchandising concepts etc. i can turn around a photorealistic rendering quickly
- strong drawing skills - this comes from my tech illustration background.
- in depth understanding of print technologies and processes (i took a few courses at Ryerson - print management).
- working knowledge of html, flash (i love actionscript), etc. although i would never call myself a web designer.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

For me, the additional skills that have proved most useful for keeping myself a valued employee (especially the last 4 years or so):


 Illustration: Traditional pencil/ink, as well as Ilustrator/Photoshop and 3-D packages.
 Animation: Motion graphics as well as some (basic) traditional animation using AfterEffects and Flash
 Video production (DVD, Web, Multimedia, etc.) Using Premiere, AfterEffects, Final Cut Pro, iMovie, iDVD/DVD Studio Pro
 OS Tech/Troubleshooting: Networking, Nightly backups (archive server with Retrospect), testing/integrating new hardware, as well as software troubleshooting. I also act as the office support "go-to guy" with whatever Q's my coworkers have.
My job description is Graphic/Multimedia Design which, technically covers a wide range of topics but my foremost role as an employee is print with occasional web and/or multimedia design.


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## Carl (Jun 7, 2003)

I have been designing for almost 20 years now, and if you can't do it with paper and pencil, then please stay out of the field. A computer doesn't make you a designer, and I would take issue with anyone who says that design can be taught. It can't. Computers are just tools.
You might consider a spelling and grammar tool though......<---sorry, just couldn't resist. It reminded me of a resume I saw the other day.

I sketched for many years and then got into mechanical/fluid design and machines. Then patents. Then patents on mechanical fluid devices.
As company owner though, my skillsets including sweeping the floor and taking the dog out for a pee.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

That's WAY too broad a statement as you have not defined "design".
Absolutely critical elements of design can be taught and yes computers are just tools. 

I feel it take any skill set of an advanced sort 5 years to mature into an occupation.
It takes about 6 months to add computer skills to that.

You're not exactly a poster child for working with current tools.

You may well have a point about "ideas' and "concept" as - it is hard to train "innovation" as your strengths seem to be centred on.

That said not all are entrepreneurs or innovators and the world requires "designers" who are well versed in the various fields and familiar with the current tools to achieve that.

I would suggest your meme of "design" differs from the majority chatting here.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> - strong OS, troubleshooting skills. i set up and troubleshoot _everyone's_ computer, including the bookkeeper's sh*tbox pc.
> - 3d. i design retail displays, racks, merchandising concepts etc. i can turn around a photorealistic rendering quickly
> - strong drawing skills - this comes from my tech illustration background.
> - in depth understanding of print technologies and processes (i took a few courses at Ryerson - print management).
> - working knowledge of html, flash (i love actionscript), etc. although i would never call myself a web designer.



aaahhh graphic designers doing retail displays.......the bane of my life!


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## PeterBarron (Sep 21, 2004)

field.


> if you can't do it with paper and pencil, then please stay out of the field.


That's a fairly arrogant statement. I can see JAMG's point.

I can't draw a stick figure to save my life, but I'm a good designer. 

I've dealt with many an illustrator who should have their computers taken away from them...stick to pen and paper and don't digitize it, let me do that.

But again, "design" (the 21st century version avec computers) has many a broad stroke...


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> aaahhh graphic designers doing retail displays.......the bane of my life!


lol. i'm actually better suited to this kind of work due to my technical bkgrd.

edit: woa. that was wierd. i went to copy paste loafer's quote but after hitting the send button an image of an old russian tank appeared instead of the quote - from a WIP i just updated on another forum. anyone else have problems with command c not working consistently? it's been plaguing me for a while.


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## shoe (Apr 6, 2005)

seeing your still in high school I have 1 thing i didnt read here yet.

College Pre requisists: most design courses want a decent 70 + in english and math in the advanced level. ( gete good marks in these classes check the pre requisits they may have changed) Graphic design programs have hi demand so the better your marks the better your chances become.

I had to take a year of general arts and science in college to boost my coast threw high school marks, just a heads up.

might also sugest you concentrate on 1 part that intrests you eg print or wed or video and become really good at it and then let the others come

I think its really great that you know wich direction you want to head while you are in high school good stuff.

shoe

ps good summer job in a related feild would be work for a vinyl sign co the money can be crappy but its a good work enviroment, signarama and fast signs are pretty big chains and look for cheap labour and will hire students intrested.


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> lol. i'm actually better suited to this kind of work due to my technical bkgrd.
> 
> edit: woa. that was wierd. i went to copy paste loafer's quote but after hitting the send button an image of an old russian tank appeared instead of the quote - from a WIP i just updated on another forum. anyone else have problems with command c not working consistently? it's been plaguing me for a while.


At least you have the technical background......I've seen graphic designers doing retail displays in photoshop and illustrator....in 3D and all their perspectives are off entirely....and they no idea how it would be manufactured, makes me laugh!

And I can now attest to TMR's low point. It must have been a very dark time for you......although I'm it has made you the man you are today!


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## gruegoo (Dec 28, 2004)

Ok just to note, a lot of the following has been said by other people (some parts are just recapping) and ALL of the following is personal opinion, i.e. take it with a grain of salt.


*DRAWING SKILLS*

The idea that you need to be able to draw to be able to design is utter BS. What you need for design is a brain and some education. Being able to draw is definitely a PLUS, but its not required. Personally I write out my ideas in detail, and my creative briefs for projects (the ones I use for myself, not the ones I give to clients) are easily 1500-2000 words for even a small project like a business card design. Not all people communicate through images, and I happen to communicate through words. In the event that I need to draw something, I just draw straight boxes to indicate where everything goes. 

*HIGHSCHOOL EDUCATION*

Take a few art courses to ensure you have a good portfolio, but make sure you take courses and electives that deal with world issues, creative writing, politics, or whatever interests you. You want to be a well rounded person. Business courses won't hurt either.

*POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION*

I'm not sure where you're located, but if you plan to go to school in Ontario, there are only 2 programs you should apply to for graphic design: York/Sheridan and OCAD. The reason is, they're the only 2 in Ontario that offer a Bachelor of Design, which basically means you're not just attending college, you're attending university. If there are other new ones, please let me know as many colleges are adding university courses to their curriculum.

I'm a recent graduate of the York/Sheridan program and the knowledge I have gained from my required university courses and electives (art history, psychology, philosophy, etc) have greatly improved my abilities. Again, design is about concepts and ideas, not software. Even with the best DESIGN education, you'll never be a good designer without interests outside the design field that you can draw upon.

*OTHER INTERESTS*

If you are only interested in graphic design, you will NEVER be a good graphic designer. The reason is, design as a profession draws upon many disciplines and concepts. For example, one of the guys from my graduating class LOVED to build models. He developed his mind to think in 3D through all those years of model building and now his exhibition design is incredible. Not only that, his mockups are absolutely spectacular, and he was offered a job before graduating (luck bastard haha).

Another example, one of my strongest portfolio pieces is a book I wrote and designed comparing the roles of bodhisattvas in Buddhism to that of saints in Christianity. At grad show, people were impressed by the SUBJECT MATTER, rather than just focusing on the design. Outside interests won't just help you get jobs, it will give you a wealth of knowledge and experience to draw upon.

While creative interests are good (film, writing, painting), don't forget the "non-creative" aspects like business, politics, etc. You cannot design in a vacuum. The more knowledge you possess, the more knowledge you can apply to your designs.

*PORTFOLIO*

Keep it small, 8-12 pieces max. The main thing you want to show is your concepts and ideas behind the work. 6 strong pieces will work MUCH better than 6 strong with 6 weak. Know the order you're showing everything, and make sure you start and end on a high note. Practice public speaking, and make sure you can talk about your design process as well as how your work provides a solution to the design problem.

Its not just about having good work, its also about "selling" that work to your interviewers.

*SOFTWARE*

If you get a chance, you'll need to know the following in order to be more productive:

Print:
Photoshop
Illustrator
Indesign
Quark (BOTH of them)

Web:
Photoshop
Illustrator
HTML
CSS
PHP (good to know)
Flash
Just be familiar with the technologies in general, i.e. mysql, etc


Motion:
After Effects (or maybe Motion)
Final Cut
Maya (good to know)

Don't worry about learning them now if you're strapped for time, you'll learn them in college/university as you do your course work. Oh and I might have left a few out.

*PROCESS*

Learn the creative process. You can't be a good designer without it.

That's what school is there for. Much of design education isn't learning software or tech skills, its learning HOW to design and WHY. Start off with creative PROPOSALS for every project. Make sure you include the following:

Project Statement - Briefly describe your project. Don't state a design rationale, but instead state the actual problems and the approach you're taking, i.e. I will research this field, etc. Don't go too into depth, this is more an overview.

Identify Target Audience - Who is this project for? Include demographics (age, location, etc) as well as psychographics (what they want, how they see themselves) This is a VERY important aspect, as your design will change considerably depending on who you're designing for.

Design Strategy - What you've done, what you've researched, and how you will approach the project. This one is in more detail. Talk about the scope of the project and what aspects of the research you'll focus on. For instance, if you're doing an editorial spread, talk about what aspect of the text you'll focus the design on, and why. This section should be VERY detailed and should be the majority of the proposal.

Deliverables - what you're making, i.e. a website, or a book.

Bibliography - Preferably annotated. Keep it as a quick reference for when you're going back to research.

Yeah its a lot, but it helps, and yes I do this for every project (that I care about haha).



Aaaand that's all I can think of for now. I need food.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

:clap:


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## sketch (Sep 10, 2004)

MacDoc said:


> ALL have the fundamental design elements as part of the work and that's needed for sure but within the "design" field having a second skill set you are comfortable with is important in my mind. *I'd actually like to hear back from those that concur with this and what their specific value added skill might be.*


*

I definitely agree. There are numerous amounts of times where knowing how to draw saved me in web design. That's web. As in, using a computer. Yup. The computer can't do everything. But it sure does help!  I prefer pencil and paper-- nothing can replace that. Not even a tablet. There was another time where I had to think really hard and remember fractions from grade 4 while using Illustrator. I forget what the problem was, but I did manage to remmber it. 

I'm a pretty good drawer (hence my nick) -- horrible at figure drawing but I need to practice. I beleive you can teach someone design but how good they can be is up to how much they practice and how much talent they have.

Oops, I went off topic. In agreeing with MacDoc, you do need to have some technical skills. After all, web and print positions have been merging (but still apart) and at least it could be a definite assett to have both. I mean, some job position sI've seen are pretty strange. They ask for print knowledge (and list every print software on the planet), web knowledge (and list every web software on the planet), database knowledge (and list every databse software on the planet), 3D software (and list every.. you get the idea). And that's all under 'Graphic designer' *


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## duosonic (Jan 7, 2004)

Couldn't agree more: "OTHER INTERESTS ~ If you are only interested in graphic design, you will NEVER be a good graphic designer. The reason is, design as a profession draws upon many disciplines and concepts."

"Design" is the result of a process – sometimes conscious & detailed, sometimes quick & intuitive – of bringing many symbols, objects, references, etc. into a coherent whole that makes a visual statement communicating the client's offering. This can involve illustration, photography, text, shape, colour, texture ~ AND good design is executable … so, understanding of production is a skill set no designer should be without (I have worked in both "fields", &, trust me, nothing is more likely to earn a designer the undying enmity of production crew than a poorly or improperly spec'd layout.)

Plus, you never really know where you will end up – that hobby, or minor interest, or tiny piece of knowledge/information lurking in your brain might lead you to a fascinating & rewarding professional area you overlooked … I have followed many, many interests & opportunities, and as a result have worked in film & video (production design, carpentry, lighting, production management), newspaper (layout, ad design, editing, writing, production management), graphic design & production (typesetting, graphic film, printer prep, production co-ordination & management), public administration, rural economic development, plus freelance "graphics", illustration & computer consulting ~ and have worked with a model builder on projects such as illuminated diaramas, film sets, & currently a topographic model of the Canadian portion of the Columbia River Basin (required skills include mapping, math, computer troubleshooting, drawing, sculpting, airbrushing, electrical wiring, bookkeeping …) – oh, & I'm a working musician, too.

ALL experience goes into "design" – including good training in basic skills! Grab it all !!


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## Carl (Jun 7, 2003)

MacDoc said:


> That's WAY too broad a statement as you have not defined "design".
> Absolutely critical elements of design can be taught and yes computers are just tools.
> 
> I feel it take any skill set of an advanced sort 5 years to mature into an occupation.
> ...


Thanks for setting me straight. What was I thinking?


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Sorry if this is dragging up an old part of this thread. 



« MannyP Design » said:


> Now that sounds like someone has issues.
> 
> Out of curiosity, where do you work? Feel free to PM if you like, if you don't want everyone to know, but it sounds like there are some serious issues at your job. I've yet to come across a designer with a serious ego problem (albeit quirky or eccentric ones occasionally), nor a production designer with a knife ready to stab me.
> 
> Yet.



Anyone who says they do not have "Issues"... is a liar. You have yours, I have mine, so does eveyone... I have not given you enough to fairly psycoanalys me but whatever..

I am contractually obligated to not speak on behalf of my agency {not authorized as a public voice}, but I am production supervisor for the Canadian head office of a world-wide Ad Agency... 

I've worked in Magazines, Major Newspapers, Margeting Agencies and several Ad agencies, big and small...I'v worked with art directors and creative/concept types at all levels and was in that position at all levels {ya,ya,brag,brag,brag...}

But as I tried to say, I'm not trying to discourage, but far, far too many people try to jump in to this business, impressed with themselves after they only learn some basics and then expect the world to fall at their feet...


High end or low end of the business, the creative process is virtually the same. Spagetti is thrown at a wall, some sticks some doesn't. The client, untrained and unskilled in graphics at all is the judge of what sticks best.

The difference between an average designer and a great designer is in how much spagetti gets thrown at the wall in the first place... 

And for those who think they are just going to be "concept" people and won't need drawing skills... yes, you can earn a living, but you will be surviving on office politics. There are plenty in our agency, and they all think they are important, until that day they try to push their weight around in the production dept. and get a great big serving of reality...


Getting a new client depends on creative and a great presentation.... that is completely forgotten a week later and the continuation of the economic relationship depends on production delivering technically correct files to a variety of publications and printers with differing spec's...




If you are creative, you should have some artistic skills, if you are production, you better have more artistic skills and a better technical understanding of when and how to use them.


Creative types rarely survive by "p*ssing" on the production staff...
Some think they can, and the results of that are often entertaining...

Good luck


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

"The difference between an average designer and a great designer is in how much spagetti gets thrown at the wall in the first place... "

I disagree.....better designers throw stickier spaghetti not necessarily more spaghetti


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

JAMG,

I'm not saying I or people in general don't have issues, but when you paint a broad stroke about graphic designers as egomaniacal tyrants, you can't help but be a little suspicious. From what I gather from your posts, it sounds like inter-department office politics with a little bit of age bias going on.



> The average age of our "designers" is under 30 - they are paid relatively little and are disposable...
> 
> Our skilled Production artist's average age in in the early 40's and they are difficult to replace. Designers who talk down about production generally fall into the "Pompous Asss" catagory and have no clue as to the true level of esteem in which they are held.


Maybe your firm should consider hiring older designers? Perhaps the production artists would like to take a swing at being emperor for a change and have a taste of what it's like to be on the other end?


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## Loafer (Jan 7, 2004)

from my limited experience working in agencies it seemed to me production artists have found they have pulled the short straw (it's an arduous dull job, IMHO) and seem to have a bit of a chip on their shoulder that they are being told what to do by often younger and less technically savvy 'designers' who, to be fair, shouldn't need to know the in's and out's of the printing process.....they just come up with the ideas right ?

there is a fine line between telling a designer what they have done is impossible and being all pissy about it or showing a designer a better way of producing the same or near result and leading them down an alley of enlightenment.....all depends on the person with the knowledge.

does that make sense ?

{duck}


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I agree... I'd hate to work for a newspaper or a magazine as a production designer -- constant deadlines day-in, day-out. No ifs, ands, or buts.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

Loafer said:


> "The difference between an average designer and a great designer is in how much spagetti gets thrown at the wall in the first place... "
> 
> I disagree.....better designers throw stickier spaghetti not necessarily more spaghetti


Sorry, My implication was that better designers throw less spagetti and more of it sticks...


and for the record, I don't hate designers... I just don't answer to them and few of them are qualified to be production artists...


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Yes, that may be the truth, the inverse holds equally well.


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## JAMG (Apr 1, 2003)

« MannyP Design » said:


> the inverse holds equally well.


sometimes that can be very true, but IMHO... not so much...  

your milage may vary...


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## gruegoo (Dec 28, 2004)

In regards to the whole "drawing abilities required" debate, I think we need to define exactly what drawing abilities are. Is it enough to be able to convey the idea visually to another person? Or are you all talking about drawing skills that rival professional illustrators?

IMHO, as long as the sketch can convey the idea, its enough. A designer would have to be pretty crazy or stupid to show clients a pile of rough sketches from brainstorming sessions. Anything shown should be a fully developed concept, which would normally be beyond the sketch phase.

Like JAMG said (i think?), clients often have no design education and need to be shown WHY the concept and approach is the right one, rather than just pleasing them by sticking a picture of the company president's dog on the cover of the annual report.


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## gruegoo (Dec 28, 2004)

Loafer said:


> less technically savvy 'designers' who, to be fair, shouldn't need to know the in's and out's of the printing process.....they just come up with the ideas right ?


Only to a point... while a designer might not know EVERY LITTLE secret in the production field, a good designer should know what can and cannot be done, as well as the costs associated with it. Time to raise the bar for designers everywhere! Knowledge and education are (again) key.

(of course if you were being sarcastic... oops) 

A problem with many of the new design graduates is they don't know crap about production. Their entire portfolio is made of projects that would be impossible to do unless done by hand (which is exactly how they made them). Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but you give them a budget and they're completely lost.

For instance, ANYONE can design and produce a nice book if they're given a budget of $1000 per printed and bound copy. Don't laugh, someone in my program actually spent that and was proud of themselves.


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## TroutMaskReplica (Feb 28, 2003)

> just pleasing them by sticking a picture of the company president's dog on the cover of the annual report.


you don't mind if i use that, do you?


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## duosonic (Jan 7, 2004)

Having worked in production I say "yea" to the concept that designers need to know "what can and cannot be done, as well as the costs associated with it." It's part of the job! Clients often (usually) have a budget, & part of the designers brief is to come up with a concept that can be done within that budget – the more you know, the better you can do your job. Drawing ability? ~ at least skilled enough to convey a concept to the other members of your team who will be working with you or on the product … I used to think if you can't draw, you can't design, but now know lots of young designers & artists who are lost with paper & pen or brush, etc., but who can turn out really lovely stuff using the new technologies – still, being able to sketch something out at least in rough is yet another valuable communication tool that shouldn't be overlooked.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

One of my favorite write-ups: How to (and not to) Work with a Designer.

GrooGoo: Re: Overproduction. I've heard lots of horror stories from friends at press companies who dealt with those who don't understand the production process and what is possible within reasonable means/budget. I won't go into detail because some of the stories are actually from a friend whom I went to school with... and they're pretty specific, so I'll leave it at that.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

I think every student should have exposure to production... at Algonquin we had an opportunity to be exposed to students taking the Print Media program (as well as visiting service bureaus and marketing firms), seeing what their job entails, how things work, and how badly things can go wrong if you don't know what you are doing. 

Of course, getting real-life exposure and experience offers a much quicker lesson in how things work.


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Yeah just bring up trapping.........


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## shoe (Apr 6, 2005)

what ever happened to helping this student find his way?

geesh this got out of hand and turned into a Graphic Designers argument post.

poor guy

shoe


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

Argument?

No. It's called a discussion.

Go to the Everything else forum if you want to see and argument.


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## MannyP Design (Jun 8, 2000)

MacDoc: Speaking of trapping, you reminded me of another essential book for designers, or designers to be:









The Adobe Print Publishing Guide.


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## gruegoo (Dec 28, 2004)

TroutMaskReplica said:


> you don't mind if i use that, do you?



Its (not surprisingly) a true story... or so I'm told.


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## gruegoo (Dec 28, 2004)

Other good books...

For information design:

Visual Explanations (and all the other Edward Tufte books)
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item....talog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1
Not available there, but any design bookstore like swipe should have it (on richmond, west of spadina). If you're not in toronto, they might be able to send it to you?

General Interest:

The Design of Everyday Things
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item....talog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1
Great book, but its a little more industrial design than graphic. However, it really teaches you how and why to design.

Typography:

Printing Types by Daniel Berkeley Updike
Can't find a link to it, but swipe can special order it for you (that's how I got mine). It covers the history and use of typography. More of a reference book, but its great to have.

Design with Type
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item....talog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1
By CANADIAN Carl Dair, its a great intro to typography.


I'll post more as I think of them.


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## Carl (Jun 7, 2003)

The thread turned into a "if your opinion isn't mine, then you are wrong" thread. Obvious, when you consider the target audience for the original question. I still don't think that you can be a designer if you lack creative talent, and I still don't think that computers will compensate for lack of talent.


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## Pylonman (Aug 16, 2004)

Another important aspect to graphic design, is going the extra mile. Work for free, volunteer your time, make the coffee, shovel the walkway, stay late and get the job done right, the first time. 

When I started out, I was given grunt jobs. Clean up and scan logos. Pretty basic, but, I got pretty good at Photoshop, Streamline and Illustrator (I even read the Tutorials) 

Take night classes.
I was totally amazed at how much I picked up in a classroom environment. I was interested in learning about the web, so, my worked decides to send me to night school. I took a series of Dreamweaver night courses at the SFU Harbor Centre in downtown Vancouver. Great course and excellent teachers. It's great to bounce questions off your teacher and other classmates, it's like instant feedback.
(I think I will take a writing course and polish up on my poor grammer skills)

Secondary Skills
I'm the mac/web/email tech guy in my department. People think I'm smart, but, I just have made a lot of mistakes in the past and have learned from them.

Speaking for trapping. We hired an employee about a year ago and she had never heard of trapping. She is in here late 50's and worked at a major newspaper for about 8 years. Wow! Talk about lucky or she had someone pre-flight her ads.

Resume
I dislike it when an indivdual indicates on their resume they have expert level in a certain software program, and the clearly don't know squat. So many times I hear a co-worker say 'Scott, how come my theme art looks funny in this colour proof from the printer?', I say 'well, did your create outlines in Illustator?', she/he say, 'No, how do you do that?'


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## MacDoc (Nov 3, 2001)

Pylon - excellent - just do it........free or for pay.
I ALWAYS tell clients trying to learn new skills to work on something meaningful not just exercises.

There are are journeypersons needed in every field to compliment the "stars".

Learning design principles even if you don't end up in the field is invaluable as you see the world differently and with some understanding of the skill underlying the visual offering.

You can evaluate promotional materials that may be created by others for you and at least "speak the language."

BTW I see Bruce Mau has a big exhibit on at the AGO. Never did get to peruse his big book on design as much as I'd like.

Reading about design history, the history of type and typography also gives you a grounding in your field and another area of my personal "axe grinding" is putting communication FIRST - a 6 point phone number in silver on white may keep the white space intact but it's a BUSINESS CARD.......!!!!!

Top notch design does both but there was a stage a while back ( and Wired Mag was one of the worst offenders ) where design purely for it's own sake overtook readability.
I can recall a few "corporate annual reports" that were simply unintelligible but sure looked snazzy.

Give me ugly and functional FIRST over pretty and unintelligible. Keeping in mind the purpose of the work is paramount and speaks to skills outside the visual alone.

(insert rant about reverse type websites here...... )

As a "wanna be" designer get the basics of communication and design fundamentals down pat and then build on it. -


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## spinz (Feb 1, 2003)

« MannyP Design » said:


> I think every student should have exposure to production... at Algonquin we had an opportunity to be exposed to students taking the Print Media program (as well as visiting service bureaus and marketing firms), seeing what their job entails, how things work, and how badly things can go wrong if you don't know what you are doing.
> 
> Of course, getting real-life exposure and experience offers a much quicker lesson in how things work.


You are so correct!

I work in production as my 9-5 and do my design work on the side.
At work we get so many things that are just so wrongly made. Sometimes for fun we actually try and figure out just how they made artwork so crappilly set up. 
Conclusion ... some people are just idiots.

But seriously, my wish is that more of our clients actually followed some of the small guidelines we ask for (bleed would be nice once in a while! or fonts maybe??), but in general for a designer it really puts you ahead of the game if you know a bit more about what happens to your artwork once it leaves your hands.


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## zer0army (May 31, 2004)

JAGflyer,

Instead of just disagreeing with a bunch of other posters and telling them they are wrong because I don't share the same opinion as they do I will try to respond to what you originally asked. I'm also giving you the opinion of someone under 25 yrs. old, so I'm sure many of the older guys will write me off and think I'm some "young digital punk" because I’ve never used a Mac II with Quark 1.5. However, here’s my story and opinion.

I was in exactly the same position as you when I was in Grade 11. I didn't know what I wanted to pursue after high school but started playing around with some graphic design apps on PC's. During my next 2 years of high school (we had OAC at the time) I took as many art and design courses as I could. Might I add, I never took any art or design courses before gr. 11 and had hated computers and thought they were for geeks (and I guess they kind of still are). I was lucky enough that my high school had a strong art and design program and I was exposed to all the major adobe and macromedia apps and even some 3D modeling programs. I excelled on the digital side and picked up the basics pretty quickly. For my last two years of high school I used the computer almost every day and learned as much about the tools as possible. 

At the same time I was learning the traditional stuff like drawing and painting and even took some extra out of school classes. I had always thought I sucked at it, but really I had just never tried. Drawing is something anyone can learn, trust me, I did. With high school out of the way I went into a three year graphic design program at college. While everyone else struggled with applications I breezed through the classes and was able to focus my time on design theory and further strengthen my drawing skills. Once you are done with first year though, no one seems to care about traditional stuff anymore. It's all digital, everything is expected to be computer generated. For my last 2 years of college I finally had enough cash to by a mac (this is when you need it most). After using Windows for many years everything seems so much easier and a better fit with graphic design and all the apps. During school and mostly during the summers I was able to score some freelance work, directly with clients, school student association and also through other professionals close to the industry (photographers, indy film makers, 3d animation guys). Now done school completely. The freelance work is still keeping me busy enough that I don't need to worry about finding a studio position. I would like to find a studio position in the next year though and in the future, start something of my own with designer friends I have met at school and abroad over the past few years.

So now you know where I'm coming from. These are my opinions on a few of the key things you should think about if you decide to go the graphic design route.

Drawing: No you don't need to be naturally good at this or be a pro to be a good designer. You never said you wanted to be an Illustrator, I know I'm not. Just know how to put something down that can get your idea across. To be honest, I rarely draw anymore and haven't painted in years. My Digital sketch pad works for me and I find it saves me a lot of time. You don't always have a computer in front of you though, like when you're at a bar or party with your friends. That’s when you grab a napkin and whatever crappy pen or pencil you can find. Don't get me wrong, it never hurts to be good with the pencil and the paper, and if you can find time to keep doing it then that’s great, it all translates to a lot of the digital stuff anyway.

Applications: Learn Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign. People who say one is more important than the other usually just don't know the others that well. For example, there were students when I was graduating that still insisted they didn't need to know Illustrator and could do everything I could do solely in Photoshop. They were even doing their page layout in Photoshop or Illustrator (I'm not joking) Not a clue what the difference between raster and vector was and did print stuff at 72dpi (Oh - but they were great with pencil and paper!) As for QuarkXpress, I would say don't even bother, by the time you get into the industry it should dead. Last I heard they don't even offer Xpress classes at Sheridan anymore, and I'm sure all the other schools will follow soon. Quark had its time, OS9 Version 4.11. The young designers are all using Indesign and many of the major magazines and newspapers are moving in this direction. After you know your Adobe stuff (and Macromedia if you wanna do web) learn a 3D program, Doesn't matter too much which one, as long as you can generate good stuff. It's great when you take a package or environmental design class and everybody else has that one view laboriously drawn, whereas you can model the bottle, sign etc. once and can have multiple views just by moving around your scene camera.

School: Just because you went to the school that cost the most money and has an "amazing" reputation isn't everything. It's really not a big deal, apply to them all but go where you can afford while still having enough cash to get a good Mac in second year. You will be more productive and not feel the need to "get away from the computer" if you have a decent machine with a big display, nice chair and a big tea for those long nights. No matter where you go, students will always be whining "oh this school is s***," "the computers suck" "teachers don't know jack" It's up to you to pick the few valuable things out of a class and then build on them. They get the ball rolling for you but you have to do a lot of learning on your own. I think it’s 50/50, you need to learn as much on your own (if not more) as you do at school to really get something out of your 3 or 4 year education. There is tons of free learning on the internet, read Mac and design related sites whenever you can. (not just to check if a Powerbook G5 is coming out on Tuesday) Just remember—its school, something always sucks. Use the time to focus on and be around design, explore a lot of stuff on your own and play around on the computer everyday, learn to have fun with what you are doing and it won’t feel like school or work. In this business, no one cares where you went to school anyway. Degree or diploma, Who cares, lets see your portfolio.

Lastly, don't forget to joke around and party with your friends, you are still young and that is something that will influence your designs. They need young designers to do cool stuff that the younger generation can identify with. How many times have you seen a commercial or print ad targeted at us that’s completely lame and we laugh at! (probably done in Xpress on OS 9 too) They need young designers with fresh ideas that can appeal to the younger generation. No offense to the old guys, I have learned so much from many 40+ yrs. veteran designers.

Final note, learn your programs, explore as much as you can in the next couple years (just showing up to a college course everyday for a few years doesn't cut it), have fun and go wild with it.

*Sorry for the long post, but it bothers me to see some discouraging attitudes. I was in the same position and am glad I never listened to the negative few. Don't know where I would be without this career.


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## JAGflyer (Jan 10, 2005)

Thanks zer0army. I got a call on Thursday that my photography course was cancelled and instead I am going to be trying the "applied design" course which is graphics on the computer.


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