# UPS costs too much!



## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

Just a small rant about dishonourable business practices:

UPS charges brokerage fees that are so astronomical, I turned blue while talking to the guy on the phone....

my parcel from the states was $549 

the brokerage fee is $151!!

that's what? 1/3 of the purchase price? on an item that is supposed to be duty-free (a computer)

not a happy camper....  
James


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## mycatsnameis (Mar 3, 2000)

Sadly that is par for the course although I suspect that part of your total was GST/PST no?

Regardless, always stipulate USPS if you can for X-border shipments, it is _much_ more reasonable. I've passed on some US online merchants who only offer UPS (or Fed Ex who're just as bad).


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## jicon (Jan 12, 2005)

I lost a cell phone in the rental car while in Winnipeg a few weeks back...

The car company (located at the airport) sent it to me by UPS. Less than a pound: $32.


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## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

sorry about your expenses too, yet glad I'm not alone...
James


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## farfisa (Nov 5, 2003)

thejst said:


> Just a small rant about dishonourable business practices:
> 
> UPS charges brokerage fees that are so astronomical, I turned blue while talking to the guy on the phone....
> 
> ...


Yeah, I got a $200 item from the states on eBay that I thought was a steal.... with a $70 brokerage fee though, it wasn't.

USPS is slow but most of the time I don't care how slow. Some places only ship UPS though--must get a deal.

So, just another addition to the "you're not alone" folder.


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## briMac (Sep 18, 2004)

I bought some iPod cleaner and paid $10 for it. I got a $35 brokerage charge for it.

Brian


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## Pamela (Feb 20, 2003)

briMac said:


> I bought some iPod cleaner and paid $10 for it. I got a $35 brokerage charge for it.
> 
> Brian


LOL!

Glad I'm one of those types of people who learn from other people's mistakes/experiences!


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## scootsandludes (Nov 28, 2003)

briMac said:


> I bought some iPod cleaner and paid $10 for it. I got a $35 brokerage charge for it.
> 
> Brian


That happened to me too, i bought some cables for my scooter on ebay, about $12 when all was done, I got charged $35 for brokerage from UPS, I was debating whether I should pick them up or tell UPS to keep it. But I just told the seller off in the end for not warning me he was gonna send it UPS.

"What can Brown do for you?"
First off you can pay me back some of your ridiculous brokerage fees!

vince


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## NBiBooker (Apr 3, 2004)

Sorry, dumb question, but what are brokerage fees anyway?


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Brokerage is a handling fee charged by shippers/couriers to handle any of the customs clearances (duties, tariffs, taxes) when crossing the border. The do this on your behalf.

If you send things overnight, the brokerage is included in the shipping charges. Overnight costs significantly more but clears customs quicker and often items fall under the radar for collecting taxes etc. (this is because mostly documents and business material are sent overnight).

I mostly send everything to my friend in the U.S. unless it's worth less than C$20 then I have them send it via USPS. Importing stuff over myself by car is easier, cheaper and half the time I don't pay anything (waived through).

Here's a great thread from last September:
http://www.ehmac.ca/showthread.php?t=5800


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Pamela said:


> Glad I'm one of those types of people who learn from other people's mistakes/experiences!


From what I read, you had a 23" Cinema Display smuggled to you...


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

UPS and FedEx charge a $30-40 fee to calculate duty (if any) and applicable taxes while USPS/Canada Post charge $5 for the same service. If your item is under $20 in value Canada Post will let it slide through 99% of the time while the other two will ding you, guaranteed, for $35 to calculate the $3 in taxes owed. On anything electronic or for use in electronics (which includes anything computer) there is no duty but you do have to pay the tax.


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## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

All I have to say is....


it better be a nice PowerBook!   

james


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Simon has it wrong. 

A brokerage fee is for clearing your shipment and not a fee to calculate taxes. All shipments which are not accompanied by the importer (ie YOU, YOURSELF) need to be processed and the documentation submitted to Canada Customs for clearance. The taxes and GST are assessed based on the declared value (or a revised value) by Canada Customs. Air shipments come "in bond", meaning they can enter the country, but no delivery can take place until cleared by CC&R. It is preparation of these documents which you're paying for.

Individuals can clear their own shipments, otherwise a licensed customs broker is required. It is they who prepare the documents and make, what's known as an "entry". Revenue Canada then revues the entry, assesses any duties and collects the taxes. The customs broker on record not only prepares the entry, but pays all fees on your behalf at time of clearance. Do you think the feds wait for you to pay? Some goods require special import permits, or there's an import quota, whatever it is...customs brokers perform many functions on your behalf to clear your shipment.

One more thing....FedEx charges $7.00 for the brokerage fee, rather cheap, I'd say.


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## Orion (Apr 16, 2004)

Don't know about any of the other shippers, but UPS nailed me for ~ CDN$53 upon receiving some promotional material from the US. Not happy! Seeing as none of it was for sale (all given away as prizes for an event) and the value on the shipping sticker was for less than US$20, I was distinctly un-thrilled.

It was late (they had had it for 2.5 weeks while it "cleared customs") and it arrived at completely not the time they had told me it would after they phoned to make sure I would be at home. Apparently they had tried to deliver it before but had not bothered to inform me in any way, shape, or form. Not even a post-it saying "UPS tried to deliver."


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

kps said:


> Simon has it wrong.


I am not - I clearly said ... "UPS and FedEx charge a $30-40 fee to calculate duty (if any) and applicable taxes" but since there is no duty they end up charging you $30 for the $3 in taxes. I may not know the in and outs of brokerage industry but I bring in enough stuff to know NOT to have it shipped via UPS or FedEx because I will be dinged for a large fee to broker nothing ... so are you telling me that there is a justification to UPS charging me $30 to look it up on a list and say to me "look it's duty free" when Canada Post charges $5 for the same service?

And just to clarify, FedEx can and has charged more than $7 - I can even show the waybill invoice from FedEx's brokerage arm for $37.45 to clear one stick of RAM with no duty and $15 in taxes applied.


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## hungryhouse (Feb 2, 2005)

*worked there*

I use to be a man in brown. Everytime I was delivering to a private residence that didn't have it's own broker I instantly felt bad as I knew the receiver had no idea was coming. UPS has the second largest air fleet in the world, something has to pay for all that pricey gas.
P.S. I quit cause of the stress.


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## thejst (Feb 1, 2005)

hungryhouse said:


> P.S. I quit cause of the stress.



Given how shocked I was at my fees, I can only imagine what the driver must have to put up with, my sympathies. (I was a waiter for many MANY years)

in any event, as of tomorrow, I'll have my PowerBook, which makes me happy nonetheless. 
thanks for all the commiseration!

James


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Simon,

Did I say anything about UPS or anyone else being justified in charging high brokerage fees? NO! I've been dinged plenty of times myself when importing goods from the US by unreasonable brokerage fees, but I also have 20+ years of first hand knowledge of what it takes to clear truckloads of freight through customs. I was simply stating what a customs broker does, because you obviously have no clue, yet you're shooting your mouth off with misinformation.

If you're a frequent importer, why didn't you call FedEx and dispute the charge or get an explanation of the fee? You just paid it...no questions asked, even though the fee is usually $7. The R.O.D has the name and phone number of the individual who prepared it, pick up the phone next time.


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

kps said:


> I was simply stating what a customs broker does, because you obviously have no clue, yet you're shooting your mouth off with misinformation.


I have no clue? You're a dick KPS ... 

What misinformation? This post is about being dinged by UPS and FedEx for small shipments not a post about clearing truckloads through customs. I never stated I'm an expert here, I stated what I was charged by who and what was on the invoice. I never proclaimed to be the brokerage god (which obviously you are - so let's all bow and worship KPS).

You twist what I say and then say I have no clue ... Get a frikin life ...

And since I have learned a lesson never to use them for small shipments, there is no need for me to call and have my invoice corrected, and by-the-way when I did call to complain about the high fees (this was at least three years ago) I was basically told - sorry we can't help you.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

By far the best method is to clear your own shipments. It's not complicated as long as you have a detailed invoice and it's not a commercial shipment (ie not for resale, etc).

Customs accepts practically anything as an invoice (eMail, lettermail, fax, a printed screenshot of your order, whatever) provided it has the minimum amount of information on it. You then go down to the Customs Office and pay the GST/PST/HST and provide the shipper with the documents they give you. You have just paid yourself $35 to act as broker.

That's the short answer. The long answer is it's not easy to find out what you have to do because both Customs and Couriers gear the clearing documentation for business users and brokers, who understand the jargon used. The best thing to do would be to go to the Customs office and ask them about it, or talk to your shipper about it. If your shipper won't help you, ask any other shipper. The process is identical.

UPS claims that the broker charges the fee to them and they don't have anything to do with it (which is technically true). However, they own the company that brokers the shipments, so it's a dodge.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Simon,

Keep your immature name calling to yourself, if you don't use those services then you really do not have a clue and maybe you should stop posting on subjects you know nothing about....


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

kps said:


> Simon,
> 
> Keep your immature name calling to yourself, if you don't use those services then you really do not have a clue and maybe you should stop posting on subjects you know nothing about....


Immature name calling? W.T.F.?! You jump in and keep repeating than I'm without a clue and then proceed to put me down ... when does my personal experience with these services not count? Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I have to have your life experience before I have the right to post ... 

I posted exactly what I did know and what I experienced and your comments that I was basically clueless were totally uncalled for ... and because you think you know better doesn't give you the right to say what I experienced was wrong.

You can take your holier-than-than thou attitude and shove it up your tight a$$


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

Let me throw my 5 cents worth into this discussion.
I received a UPS parcel once...thank God it was from a friend in the US who thought he was doing me a favour sending it UPS because it was faster.
UPS called me to deliver and to get my credit card number to charge the brokerage fee which was around $60.- or so, this was quite a few years back.
I refused....bottom line was that the parcel was returned to the sender in the US. He then sent it USPS and through the post office there is NO brokerage fee...big fat zero. The $5.00 you pay per shipment is a COD fee that the post office charges to collect the duty (if any) and taxes.
So what the 'UPS' or 'Fedex' broker charges as brokerarge fee, the Cdn Customs people do for free when shipped via USPS.
As to importing yourself and doing all the paper work...certainly doable according to the customs people I have talked to - they will help you fill out the forms etc.
Even though I have been receiving goods from the US for many years on a regular basis I have never had to go through the 'import' routine because it's only required for a fairly large value shipment. All of that is nicely explained on the Canada Customs website.


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## cottageboy (Apr 15, 2004)

krs said:


> Even though I have been receiving goods from the US for many years on a regular basis I have never had to go through the 'import' routine because it's only required for a fairly large value shipment. All of that is nicely explained on the Canada Customs website.


krs.

I am recieving a package of automotive parts (rare out of production bumpers) from the US, I know I will pay duty, but the brokerage is going to kill me (as the package is over $400 and too large for USPS apparently).

Do you know which of the forms I need to use? else I will call them later in the week.

Rob


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

I hope you don't have high blood pressure...you'd be popping a vain just about now. LOL!

You're the one who came in here "expanding" on something you don't know anything about. Sure you can post your experiences, bitch all you want, but when you pretend to know more than you do, don't be surprised when someone calls you on it. All I ever said was that you were wrong, maybe you should have left it at that...but no, you had to defend your position without knowing anything about the subject. Call me childish names and make sarcastic remarks all you want, shows you for what you really are.


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## simon (Nov 2, 2002)

kps said:


> Call me childish names and make sarcastic remarks all you want, shows you for what you really are.


Yah ... well I'm ugly in the morning and you are still a prick ...


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## Carbon Computing (Jan 7, 2003)

*Receiving Parcels, a primer:*

Importing simplified:
Taxes:
All parcels coming in to Canada are subject to GST based on the value posted. PST is actually supposed to be declared and paid by the recipient. Of note to business owners, you must claim the PST on your remittance forms for any items used for business purposes, otherwise you can get penalized in a PST audit for these items. The exception to this are items purchased for resale if you have a PST exemption # for resale. Rule of thumb: When it doubt, claim and pay the PST.

Customs Clearance:
Customs clearance is a fee paid to the brokerage house for the paperwork required to clear your parcel through the border. This fee is usually around $35 but will vary depending on the cost of goods (higher value goods have a higher customs clearance charge). 

Duties: 
Of note is that many items in Canada are higher in price because of taxes or duties depending on point of origin or manufacturer. For example laptop batteries have a high duty which explains the difference in cost between here and the US. Some components also have duty associated with them based on country of origin. These are not always the same between Canada and the US, so some items in the US were duty free imported into the US but not exported to Canada. When they cross the border to Canada, those duties are charged PLUS a fee for collecting those duties.

Canada Post and USPS:
If you receive something by USPS (US Postal Service) and the item is less than $20 CDN there are usually no fees involved. If Canada Post decides to charge GST they will also charge $7 to $10 to collect this. So occasionally, you can receive a parcel valued at $21, owe $1.47 in GST and be charged $1.47 plus $10 by Canada Post for the privilege of them collecting this fee!(I have a friend who orders $90 in seeds from the US every spring and has them mail it to him in 6 x $15 increments.)

Ship Air:
Lastly, all parcels shipped air includes the customs brokerage fee. This means that it is far more advisable to pay a $45 air freight charge on UPS / DHL / FedEx etc. than $25 ground plus $35++ in customs clearance... and wait an extra week. Shipping air also reduces the chances of your parcel getting trashed via all the ground transfer terminals. The cheapest way to ship Air is 2 or 3 day air. These really usually only delays the shipment 1 day compared to "next day" air since most "next day" air shipments still require 1-2 days of customs clearance.


Documentation:
Lastly, make sure the items shipped to you are well documented and described. All parcels after 9/11 are scrutinized much closer and any discrepancy between the contents (in the event of a spot check) and the actual contents may be seized, sent back or destroyed. Shipping something with a value listed of 0$ for a high value item can backfire if is lost (0$ insurance will be paid) but also you can be penalized or the items seized if not described properly. Having said all this, I once had 4 Kensington Trackballs sent to me and was charged $30 in duties because Canada Post had processed them as sports equipment. Occasionally, a parcel gets through with no fees, but this is an exception, not the rule.

Returns: 
Remember to triple all of these extra fees if you have to send back a defective product for exchange. If you request a credit for the returned goods (when possible) the cost the company incurred shipping it up to Canada to you will be deducted from any monies you will receive for your defective merchandise.

Buy locally when you can:
There are many reasons to buy locally. For example, all of the programs in place in Canada for Apple product (service, support, repair, education programs, market centre activities, software information shows etc.) are funded through the sale of product distributed by Apple Canada to its authorized resellers. 

Lastly locally purchased products are more nutritious than those purchased cross border. Our kids eat when you buy from us. Seriously, purchasing Canadian supports the economy that we are, for better or worse, all part of. 

Phew! I hope this helps clarify these issues.


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## gmark2000 (Jun 4, 2003)

Carbon Computing said:


> Lastly locally purchased products are more nutritious than those purchased cross border. Our kids eat when you buy from us. Seriously, purchasing Canadian supports the economy that we are, for better or worse, all part of.


When a Canadian reseller sells a PC2700 SO-DIMM for C$500 when they are selling for US$140, I'd say some resellers must be eating caviar.

(There's absolutely no reason why an Apple reseller shouldn't buy from the same sources as the Asian PC outlets for OEM parts. Paying a mark-up to American middlemen like Merisel, Ingram Micro, EMJ is ludicrous.)

Despite paying a premium for our Apple products, Mac users don't like to be ripped off and will look for the better price.

I'll add that much of the cross border purchasing is related to availability too. Many things you can't get in Canada.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

cottageboy said:


> krs.
> 
> I am recieving a package of automotive parts (rare out of production bumpers) from the US, I know I will pay duty, but the brokerage is going to kill me (as the package is over $400 and too large for USPS apparently).
> 
> ...


Rob - 

Sorry, I have no idea which forms you need. I spoke to the customs office in Trenton about importing a larger shipment and they told me to just have it sent - they would contact me when it arrived and I needed to go there to clear it and fill out the paper work which they would help me with. Really easy they said, people do mit all the time.

I really feel that these customs people are trying to help every way they can - just call them before and explain what's happening and I'm sure they will advise you.

As to USPS shipment - the $400 is not the issue, you can insure items to at least $1000 (and send items of higher valoe) The problem is the size of the package...you said automotive bumpers, so the physical size of the package exceeds the maximum allowed by USPS. You can look up size and weight restrictions on the USPS website.

If you have a choice of shipment options I would check TOTAL shipment/brokearge cost with all of them beforehand.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

> Phew! I hope this helps clarify these issues.


Very nice and detailed post but a few things I know are not correct - can't comment on importing via a courier service - last item I received this way was my BTO Mac mini which was shipped from California but Apple picked up all the shipping and brokerage and any duty. It didn't come by Fedex or UPS either but with some small courier service I had never heard of before.

In any case...the corrections:



> Canada Post and USPS:
> If you receive something by USPS (US Postal Service) and the item is less than $20 CDN there are usually no fees involved. If Canada Post decides to charge GST they will also charge $7 to $10 to collect this. So occasionally, you can receive a parcel valued at $21, owe $1.47 in GST and be charged $1.47 plus $10 by Canada Post for the privilege of them collecting this fee!(I have a friend who orders $90 in seeds from the US every spring and has them mail it to him in 6 x $15 increments.)


Canada Post does not decide to charge GST or PST or duty...that decision is strictly done by Canada Customs.. If Canada Customs charges any fee (duty or GST or PST) then Canada Post will charge a fixed $5.00 COD fee for collecting the customs levy.
In all the years I have dealt this way it was always $5.00 - that is also what is listed on the Canada Customs website - there is no Canada Post charge of $7.00 or $10.00 - never was.
I would suggest for anyone planning to have items shipped from the US (or other countries for that matter - I also get a lot from Europe) to check out the Canada Customs website and also call Canada Customs if there are any questions.
BTW - the "free" amount for 'private' shipments is $C60.- if the value exceeds that amount you may have to pay duty and taxes as applicable but these fees should be based on the value of the goods LESS the $60 'free' allocation. I found that the Canada Customs agent never subtracts the $60.- when calculating the fees. You can send in for a refund for the excess if you think it's worth the effort.



> Returns:
> Remember to triple all of these extra fees if you have to send back a defective product for exchange. If you request a credit for the returned goods (when possible) the cost the company incurred shipping it up to Canada to you will be deducted from any monies you will receive for your defective merchandise.


I don't understand why you would triple the custom fees on a warranty replacement. The only extra cost would be the shipping cost back and forth; Canada Customs doesn't charge you duty, GST and PST twice and there is no duty or tax shipping the item into the US.
Really no different than getting a warranty replacement here - or has anyone ever been charged GST and PST again on the warranty replacement????

Bottom Line for items from the US for me: 
Cost of item plus S/H via USPS in US $ times exchange rate + duty (usually zero) + $C5.00 Canada Post COD fee.
I usually apply an 80% factor to compare it to Canadian pricing....ie if the item is $C100 from a Canadian retailer it would have to be less than $C80 from a US retailer before I buy from the US.
I usually ignore the GST and PST Canada Customs charges since you have to pay that when you buy from a Canadian retailer as well. If you do add it into your cost calculation for items from the US you need to add it to the Canadian price as well. In that case it usually benefits the import cost since the GST/PST is based on a lower value.

If you look at the recent Apple Canada pricing on their web page - for the items I compared to Apple US, the difference was simply the exchange rate which is what it should be - in some cases even less....look at the list price of Tiger in the US vs Canada (ignoring special discounts from amazon and educational).
Unfortunately some retailers still haven't caught onto that...and I don't mean just the computer of Mac retail sector.


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## gordguide (Jan 13, 2001)

" ... Unfortunately some retailers still haven't caught onto that...and I don't mean just the computer of Mac retail sector. ..."

If a US business gets a GST number from Ottawa, (and provides proper documentation on the package) there is no taxes to collect (you pay them when you purchase from the vendor). Zero due 100% of the time, with any shipper.

Many US resellers do this, but not typically in the computer industry.

" ... Sorry, I have no idea which forms you need. I spoke to the customs office in Trenton about importing a larger shipment and they told me to just have it sent - they would contact me when it arrived and I needed to go there to clear it and fill out the paper work which they would help me with. Really easy they said, people do mit all the time. ..."

And contact the shipper and let them know you will be clearing it yourself. The warehouses are bonded so sometimes it's in your local city when they call you to tell you it's arrived, drop the paperwork off and it's yours.


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## krs (Mar 18, 2005)

gordguide said:


> If a US business gets a GST number from Ottawa, (and provides proper documentation on the package) there is no taxes to collect (you pay them when you purchase from the vendor). Zero due 100% of the time, with any shipper.
> 
> Many US resellers do this, but not typically in the computer industry.


Good point.......

This happened to me recently when I ordered some specialty tea from the US that I couldn't find in Canada.
The retailer in the US charged me both GST and PST. When I called them and questioned them on that they gave me a GST number but told me the PST number was confidential and they could not give it to me. I subsequently called the Ontario provincial government and asked about that - they told me that any retailer who collects PST must, by law, provide the registration number if so requested.
I never called the store in the US back to challenge them on that....I was wondering if they just pocket the PST........in any case, the amount was only$5.00 or so, so at some point it's not worth chasing.....but it would be nice to know if a US retailer can get set up to collect the PST as well as the GST.

And yes, the package did show up in regular mail - no fees to pay of any kind...so I saved at least the $5.00 COD fee


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