# Learning web design/development on a mac.



## JCCanuck (Apr 17, 2005)

I have an interesting question, I want to seriously learn web design using htmi, CSS etc. on my iMac. Other than learning on my own I was interested in taking Web certified courses at one of the Ontario colleges. I asked an instructor who does teach Mac/PC courses at a college if It's okay to us a Mac on the course and he said, " The web is PC and you have to test your sites in Internet Explorer which is still 50% of the market, Windows OS is 92% of the market. It has to work on a PC. Also Apples are unreliable these days especially with the Adobe Suite. I hope you are not religious about MAC, its just not the best tool". The instructor means for Adobe, apps like Dreamweaver, Flash etc.. I do understand the web is largely PC but looking for a job for Mac designers I see several positions asking for Macs experience in print (which I am) and web design. What gives? Or do some companies have the PC OS also on the Macs?
I know a lot of you EhMacer's are web designers/developers and would appreciate some feedback. Thanks!!


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

wow. My first reaction: what a load of absolute crap. This guy is in the stone ages. 

First of all, the mac is the -ideal- platform for developing websites. I work in downtown in an area chock full of agencies, and development studios, and work with many developers quite often. Most of them, use macs.

Second, you aren't developing for pc, you're developing for browsers, and IE right now is barely holding on to 15%. The rest, chrome, firefox, and safari. (safari is pretty small). NOT 50% Browser Statistics

Adobe apps are not unstable, I've used adobe CS for many years, and while there have been crashes, I know the peecee guys have them too. It is not... unstable. Total BS.

The mac is also extremely ideal, because, one word, virtualization. I have many instances of windows installs with different browser sets. Generally I find that if it works in chrome/firefox on the mac, very rarely do I find problems on the pc side. IE is really the only stick in the mud. And it's only 15%...

It doesn't hurt to be able to work on a PC. But that's simple. I wouldn't spend a dime on a course where the guy is that deluded and full of crap. Web development right now is moving very quickly, and if you learn stuff based in 5 years ago, your skills will be next to useless very quickly, unless you find some stodgy job somewhere in the back of a big corporation that insists on IE8 compatibility 

Sorry for the rant, but that's just so full of misinformation it's ridiculous.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

Find another course, Groove is absolutely correct, even I know the guy is full of BS and I'm not a developer like Groove.

The net runs on linux more than any Win server MS may have (FrontPage?), that's just for starters. Apache ring a bell.

Just because 90% of the world runs on Windows, does not mean they all use a convoluted non-comliant browser like IE.

Like Groove said- develop for browsers not for platform.

Seriously this guy is whacked, Flash will be slowly replaced by HTML-5, Dreamweaver-whatever, on, and on.... 

Develop on a Mac using industry standards and test on every platform and browser.


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## steviewhy (Oct 21, 2010)

sudo rm -rf /


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## Gerk (Dec 21, 2012)

I'll third the stone ages comment, run, and run fast away from that course.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Second, you aren't developing for pc, you're developing for browsers, and IE right now is barely holding on to 15%. The rest, chrome, firefox, and safari. (safari is pretty small). NOT 50% Browser Statistics


First of all, yes, most of what that instructor said is nonsense.

That said, IE is certainly more than 15% of the market groovetube would have you believe. You cannot take the usage stats from w3schools as any sort of accurate assessment on browsers usage, as by the nature of the site their stats are going to be skewed. The only real way to get a fair assessment of browser usage is to take browser stats from about a half a dozen or more content neutral sites and blend the data. If I recall correctly, worldwide desktop usage from Q4 2012, IE (across all versions) still holds about 30-35% and in North America (Canada and the US), IE is still the number one desktop browser used at just over 40%. (It's Europe, Russia and South America that are driving Chrome up worldwide.)


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## JCCanuck (Apr 17, 2005)

Glad to hear that! I have reviewed several books and videos throughout the web and they were a lot on macs. Don't care about the certificate or diploma although at first I thought it would look nice on a resume but then only one out of many, many jobs I looked at asked for a diploma in web. In fact most asked for a link to a portfolio website (some i saw were really cool!} I have started with html and will follow java, CSS and so forth just like "steviewhy" suggested. And thanks "steviewhy" for that awesome link. 
So having said that is it still recommended to dwell in Dreamweaver or Flash? Thinking I might just leave those two alone for a while and see how they rate in the future.
I'm open to any links, books, videos etc., my spongy brain is wringed dry and ready to soak up web stuff...on the Mac.

"groovetube" your rant just made my day more pleasant, thanks!


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

groovetube said:


> wow. My first reaction: What a load of absolute crap. This guy is in the stone ages.
> 
> First of all, the mac is the -ideal- platform for developing websites. I work in downtown in an area chock full of agencies, and development studios, and work with many developers quite often. Most of them, use macs.
> 
> ...


+1


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

I would ignore Flash and there's no need to use Dreamweaver.


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## Joker Eh (Jan 22, 2008)

g-mo said:


> i would ignore flash and there's no need to use dreamweaver.


+1


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Agree with gt...

The web is most definitely NOT PC based. It is based primarily on HTML which in and of itself is OS independent. But the code is parsed differently (to some extent) by the various browsers.

When one creates code and applications for the web one should be aware of the differences of how the various browsers parse the code and test the results on the various browsers/platforms for cross browser/platform compatibility and all of this can be done on a Mac.

While Dreamweaver is not required for web page development it is a very good and stable tool for web page/site development.

Like others have said... I would run, not walk away from anyone who is so misguided and clearly doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

G-Mo said:


> First of all, yes, most of what that instructor said is nonsense.
> 
> That said, IE is certainly more than 15% of the market groovetube would have you believe. You cannot take the usage stats from w3schools as any sort of accurate assessment on browsers usage, as by the nature of the site their stats are going to be skewed. The only real way to get a fair assessment of browser usage is to take browser stats from about a half a dozen or more content neutral sites and blend the data. If I recall correctly, worldwide desktop usage from Q4 2012, IE (across all versions) still holds about 30-35% and in North America (Canada and the US), IE is still the number one desktop browser used at just over 40%. (It's Europe, Russia and South America that are driving Chrome up worldwide.)


Are you a developer?

Actually many of the huge global sites I've developed have stats that are not far off from W3's. And they are indeed content neutral. A major tourism site I did here in Canada actually has IE lower than 15%. (thank god). It will also depend on the audience you're serving, but I don't think I've seen 40% anything for IE in a while. And it's heading south slowly still. 

One thing I didn't see in the description about that guy with course was the importance of mobile/ipads. They're showing pretty significant numbers on my stats and that too is pushing down IE.

Most of the developers I am working with and the top guys I read, generally develop so it works on the webkit/mozilla stuff first, and then add conditionals for the IE stuff. That's why you'll see the "<!--[if IE X]> stuff going on. IE has been stodgy with support for html5 and anything else cool.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Are you a developer?


Yes. I owned a very successful international development shop until I sold it off about a year and a half ago.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Agree with gt...
> 
> The web is most definitely NOT PC based. It is based primarily on HTML which in and of itself is OS independent. But the code is parsed differently (to some extent) by the various browsers.
> 
> ...


Yes. A lot of people like dreamweaver. I admit do use it once in a while for a reason. I've not had many problems really. 

But, truthfully, I do find it a bit heavy and a little bloated (an adobe thing) and have switched to using coda. I used textmate for a while, I bought a licence (great app), but coda is a real winner for a code app.

Flash, well as everyone knows I was an advanced flash guy for a long time, adobe abandoned the player, and it's currently in a real transition phase. One I believe should have happened a few years ago (was it the one Jobs wanted but adobe whined?) things like createJS and the ability to create apps and export native, well it's showing promise. I can't tell you what's in store for it.

Thankfully, all that AS3 code is nearly identical to js, and all my cool libraries, I've used them to create flash like experiences using css html5 etc. It's all portable.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Are you a developer?
> 
> Actually many of the huge global sites I've developed have stats that are not far off from W3's. And they are indeed content neutral. A major tourism site I did here in Canada actually has IE lower than 15%. (thank god). It will also depend on the audience you're serving, but I don't think I've seen 40% anything for IE in a while. And it's heading south slowly still.
> 
> ...


Exactly develop for W3 compliance and then add the necessary hacks for IE... 

Website development would be infinitely easier if IE would just go the way of the Dodo... as it rightfully should.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Yes. A lot of people like dreamweaver. I admit do use it once in a while for a reason. I've not had many problems really.
> 
> But, truthfully, *I do find it a bit heavy and a little bloated *(an adobe thing) and have switched to using coda. I used textmate for a while, I bought a licence (great app), but coda is a real winner for a code app.
> 
> ...


It is indeed, probably stemming from the Macromedia take over, but it is the web dev app that I know best so I keep using it just to keep the work flow flowing.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Exactly develop for W3 compliance and then add the necessary hacks for IE...
> 
> Website development would be infinitely easier if IE would just go the way of the Dodo... as it rightfully should.


That's exactly the workflow here. A great CSS I guy I hired after a big development project I asked how it looked in IE. "I donna" he said. I was a bit concerned, but he like the others don't bother anymore. They just add the nessecary hacks to make it work in IE, often certain cool things just won't. Too bad 

I tend to test in IE a bit sooner in the game. But, I'm old.



screature said:


> It is indeed, probably stemming from the Macromedia take over, but it is the web dev app that I know best so I keep using it just to keep the work flow flowing.


I'd never tell anyone not to use dreamweaver, it's still a great app (cough cough, did I just say that?), just not the real code monkey's choice is all. But then to a real code head if you're not using VI in linux then you're a wanker anyway


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## JCCanuck (Apr 17, 2005)

Gerk said:


> I'll third the stone ages comment, run, and run fast away from that course.


It's just a blur now I'm running so fast in the other direction.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> That's exactly the workflow here. A great CSS I guy I hired after a big development project I asked how it looked in IE. "I donna" he said. I was a bit concerned, but he like the others don't bother anymore. They just add the nessecary hacks to make it work in IE, often certain cool things just won't. Too bad
> 
> I tend to test in IE a bit sooner in the game. But, I'm old.
> 
> *I'd never tell anyone not to use dreamweaver, it's still a great app (cough cough, did I just say that?), just not the real code monkey's choice is all. But then to a real code head if you're not using VI in linux then you're a wanker anyway *


:lmao: Yeah I know a couple of code monkeys and they are fundamentally against any app like Dreamwaver. But not being a code monkey myself, Dreamweaver allows me to get the job done and realize the the architecture and design that I develop outside of Dreamweaver.

Like they say in carpentry, "It is a bad craftsman that blames his tools." Dreamweaver may not be the best tool, but it is the one that I know the best so I can get very good results from it.


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## Gerk (Dec 21, 2012)

I personally feel that HTML and more especially CSS really need to be coded by hand in order to be done properly. You can get the job done with other tools, but there's often a "right way" and an "easy way" to do things. They are usually not the same thing and Dreamweaver rarely falls into the "right way" category. Sure you can do good things with Dreamweaver, but you have to either just work in code view or you really have to know it's quirks so that you don't end up with nightmarish code that's hard to support. I recently did a web app for a big name photographer and wow, was it ever a nightmare to incorporate into his site due to his agency using dreamweaver for many years to manage the site, including all the CSS. When you start to get into larger projects is when that type of stuff really starts to come back to bite you. Hacks for one thing tend to lead to more hacks for other things and too often it is like a snowball rolling down a hill, especially when they lean towards using a fair bit of "add on" type stuff that they download from various places for things like their navigation menus, strange image carousels, etc. This site had almost 800kb (!!!) of CSS spread across many many sheets, and reading through it all was almost un-grokable due to the way they did everything in dreamweaver, ugg. What and where exactly is #snr_413_sm_x_1 ?  Oh ... it turns out that it is a potential slide in a slideshow plugin (that hasn't worked properly since IE6 or so but it still used on one of the 400+ pages somewhere on the site that is probably no longer even linked up to anything). Ugg.

I'm with you on the IE testing GT, I tend to test a bit earlier than that as well, but properly written code these days goes a long way. When I open up a style sheet and see a whole bunch of IE hack it usually tells me that it wasn't designed properly from the start, I rarely have to do many IE workarounds these days.

Lastly IE stats are pretty low for the big sites I work on these days too, but I think it will depend a lot on the demographic for any given site too.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

very true on DW. As long as you keep things fairly simple, and for gawd sake never use the addons dreamweaver has!!! etc., things can go relatively well. I never use design view ever, because the code it produces is horrendous. If things are kept simple, it's not bad. (ok, that's relative...) I think the very worst thing of dreamweaver is it's horrible dynamic content setup. 

The thing with IE, is often certain things just don't work in IE, things we like for some interesting functionality in css. IE is horribly behind in these things, which is mainly why the IE hacks.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Gerk said:


> *I personally feel that HTML and more especially CSS really need to be coded by hand in order to be done properly. You can get the job done with other tools, but there's often a "right way" and an "easy way" to do things. * They are usually not the same thing and Dreamweaver rarely falls into the "right way" category. Sure you can do good things with Dreamweaver, but you have to either just work in code view or you really have to know it's quirks so that you don't end up with nightmarish code that's hard to support. I recently did a web app for a big name photographer and wow, was it ever a nightmare to incorporate into his site due to his agency using dreamweaver for many years to manage the site, including all the CSS. When you start to get into larger projects is when that type of stuff really starts to come back to bite you. Hacks for one thing tend to lead to more hacks for other things and too often it is like a snowball rolling down a hill, especially when they lean towards using a fair bit of "add on" type stuff that they download from various places for things like their navigation menus, strange image carousels, etc. This site had almost 800kb (!!!) of CSS spread across many many sheets, and reading through it all was almost un-grokable due to the way they did everything in dreamweaver, ugg. What and where exactly is #snr_413_sm_x_1 ?  Oh ... it turns out that it is a potential slide in a slideshow plugin (that hasn't worked properly since IE6 or so but it still used on one of the 400+ pages somewhere on the site that is probably no longer even linked up to anything). Ugg.
> 
> I'm with you on the IE testing GT, I tend to test a bit earlier than that as well, but properly written code these days goes a long way. *When I open up a style sheet and see a whole bunch of IE hack it usually tells me that it wasn't designed properly from the start, I rarely have to do many IE workarounds these days*.
> 
> Lastly IE stats are pretty low for the big sites I work on these days too, but I think it will depend a lot on the demographic for any given site too.


As long as you know and understand HTML and CSS the code does not need to be hand written just edited from apps like Dreamweaver produce. I agree that that it doesn't produce the cleanest code but I find it far less time consuming to edit the code than it is to write the code from the beginning.

Again it is the tool that I know best and thus I am comfortable with its weaknesses and strengths and can manually compensate for its weaknesses via editing the code.

In my experience how many IE hacks there are in style sheets depend upon how far back in the iterations of IE one goes. If a site has style sheets with hacks going back to IE 6 there are going to be many more IE hacks than a site that only goes back to support IE 8 -10.


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## Gerk (Dec 21, 2012)

All tools have their time and place and if you're not a code geek and are doing simple sites (i.e. not 400+ pages) and you're careful there's nothing wrong with using dreamweaver, and in fact if you use it right you can still do those HUGE sites and keep things manageable. It's when you need to start mixing and matching things in design mode and have lots of specific types of content that it bites you because it tends to do a lot of very specific things to "fix" other things, etc. If Dreamweaver gets the job done for you then use it by all means. Just don't make me use it and we'll both be happy.

Some of the CSS stuff it does kind of reminds me of the scene in the latest Star Trek movie when Doctor McCoy is chasing Kirk around the ship trying to "fix" all the things that the initial injection caused. "Oh, you have numb tongue? I can fix that!" .. and then it causes something else which needs another injection, etc. Maybe the last version of it got better, I haven't played with the latest and greatest admittedly. I'm a coda user too (or vim or Textwrangler or BBEdit depending on what I'm doing on what machines).


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

css has some really nifty cool stuff of late. Working with a whipper snapper really up on the latest has opened my eyes a bit on that.

CSS3 is great. But man they gotta lose the prefixes.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Gerk said:


> All tools have their time and place and if you're not a code geek and are* doing simple sites (i.e. not 400+ pages) and you're careful there's nothing wrong with using dreamweaver, and in fact if you use it right you can still do those HUGE sites and keep things manageable.* It's when you need to start mixing and matching things in design mode and have lots of specific types of content that it bites you because it tends to do a lot of very specific things to "fix" other things, etc. If Dreamweaver gets the job done for you then use it by all means. *Just don't make me use it and we'll both be happy.*
> 
> Some of the CSS stuff it does kind of reminds me of the scene in the latest Star Trek movie when Doctor McCoy is chasing Kirk around the ship trying to "fix" all the things that the initial injection caused. "Oh, you have numb tongue? I can fix that!" .. and then it causes something else which needs another injection, etc. Maybe the last version of it got better, I haven't played with the latest and greatest admittedly. I'm a coda user too (or vim or Textwrangler or BBEdit depending on what I'm doing on what machines).


We used it for the site of an international hi-tech company in 6 languages with backside support for various applications with over 10K pages, so indeed (as you say) it does not need to be limited to small less complicated sites, you just have to know the program and what you are doing.

I don't know how or why I would ever make you use it.

Regarding CSS, I have never used DW for automated CSS creation, style sheets have always been generated manually, within DW admittedly, but still generated manually.


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## kps (May 4, 2003)

screature said:


> We used it for the site of an international hi-tech company in 6 languages with backside support for various applications with over 10K pages, so no indeed (as you say) it does not need to be limited to small less complicated sites, you just have to know the program and what you are doing.
> 
> I don't know how or why I would ever make you use it.
> 
> Regarding CSS, I have never used DW for automated CSS creation, style sheets have always been generated manually, within DW admittedly, but still generated manually.


Non expert here, but don't all those WYSIWYG editors insert proprietary code which generally has to be parsed with a powerful non crap inserting editor like BBEdit?


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

groovetube said:


> Actually many of the huge global sites I've developed have stats that are not far off from W3's. And they are indeed content neutral. A major tourism site I did here in Canada actually has IE lower than 15%. (thank god). It will also depend on the audience you're serving, but I don't think I've seen 40% anything for IE in a while. And it's heading south slowly still.


Well W3Counter, StatCounter Global Stats, Net Applications, StatOwl and Clicky all disagree...

Hey, I'm no fan of IE, but it's still the biggest browser in North America.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

kps said:


> Non expert here, but don't all those WYSIWYG editors insert proprietary code which generally has to be parsed with a powerful non crap inserting editor like BBEdit?


Not in my experience with DW. 

What proprietary code could they possibly be inserting that would meet W3 compliance and what possible purpose could it serve? 

Dreamweaver produced code does meet W3 compliance in the code it generates so long as "strict" compliance is enabled.

Can't speak for other web dev apps.


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## Izzy (Apr 14, 2008)

Gerk said:


> I personally feel that HTML and more especially CSS really need to be coded by hand in order to be done properly.


I tend to agree with this. I've used Dreamweaver and there is nothing wrong with it but I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner. It abstracts away a lot of the process through its interface and built in tools. A novice can get a site up and running without really knowing anything. 

I started with Dreamweaver and later moved to text editors. I wish I would have used them from the beginning because I think I would have picked things up quicker. I would have been forced to learn the foundations of everything much earlier. 

I have most of the major text editors and still use them all in different scenarios. I think I probably use BBEdit the most. It all comes down to personal preference. 

Coda is a very good tool but it is more on the integrated development environment side of things. I would start with one of the basic text editors to make sure you keep things as raw as possible at the beginning and move to something like Coda later on. 

All of the text editors have a form of auto-completion so you can move along quickly once you get the hang of things. 

As far as courses go, I've always found the ones at Lynda are very good. They've been pushing more towards developer videos lately so there is lots of new content. Treehouse is also quite up to date and offers really well produced videos. 

The A List Apart and Smashing Magazine sites are very good sources of information as well.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

There's nothing wrong with Dreamweaver as a text editor, it's just unnecessary.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

G-Mo said:


> There's nothing wrong with Dreamweaver as a text editor, it's just unnecessary.


I hate it when someone who doesn't work pro in the field acts like they know something. For instance one of my major Canadian sites has the top browser as safari. 40%.

I have no desire to quarrel with someone who doesn't do this for a living, and doesn't quite understand what all these numbers actually mean. Watch and learn. I wouldn't tell you how to diagnose and fix a mac.



screature said:


> Not in my experience with DW.
> 
> What proprietary code could they possibly be inserting that would meet W3 compliance and what possible purpose could it serve?
> 
> ...


DW is really good at one thing, and that handling a really big corp site. Often that's one of the reasons I may open it, it's site management tools are well built and very useful. That's probably your biggest reason for using it.

As for proprietary code, DW doesn't really do proprietary in the html/css. The code it produces though when you fiddle in the wysiwyg can be pretty uncomfortable to someone like me that near has a crap fit if someone working with me places styles or other unnecessary messes within the content html, which to a novice coder can make for a really big nightmare to fix. What can be proprietary though, is it
s really horrible scripts it inserts for js, and (gasp) it's server side behaviours. It uses really horrible php code and once you're locked into that dreamweaver mode of attaching these behaviours, it's really tough to clean that one up. But unless you can code php like myself, or have a serverside guy in the nexr desk, it's your option. I can see why it's your tool.

It's reeeeally unfair to say it has any of the problems of say frontpage. 

Personally the only adobe stuff I'm using it's the design apps. They're great. They just shouldn't have bought macromedia.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Groove, I've been reading this thread, and since I am a raw rookie, I am sort of asking the banner question again, but in a slightly different way: How does a raw rookie learn about setting up websites? I have one I'm working on and I'm using Wordpress. So do I just play around with it until I'm more confident and look elsewhere or would these night courses actually help????? Thoughts.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

hard to say not knowing the course. They vary really widely. Though lynda has some good ones, probably best bang for the buck?

There's a huge community online for wordpress too. sitepoint.com is a good resource as well.


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## Gerk (Dec 21, 2012)

groovetube said:


> I hate it when someone who doesn't work pro in the field acts like they know something. For instance one of my major Canadian sites has the top browser as safari. 40%.
> 
> I have no desire to quarrel with someone who doesn't do this for a living, and doesn't quite understand what all these numbers actually mean. Watch and learn. I wouldn't tell you how to diagnose and fix a mac.


:clap:


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

groovetube said:


> I hate it when someone who doesn't work pro in the field acts like they know something. For instance one of my major Canadian sites has the top browser as safari. 40%.
> 
> I have no desire to quarrel with someone who doesn't do this for a living, and doesn't quite understand what all these numbers actually mean. Watch and learn. I wouldn't tell you how to diagnose and fix a mac.
> 
> ...


Indeed and that is where I learned Dreamweaver as it was the app that was used at GSI Lumonics during my tenure there. With thousands of pages in each language (6 in total) managing a site of that size is a formidable task. 

Once they closed their Canadian operations (I was one of two of the last Canadians standing) I just kept using it for my freelance work because I knew it so well. For me and this is strictly personal, it was far easier to just keep going with an app and a work flow that I knew inside out, well as much as you can know a bloated app like DW inside out.

As Izzy has stated I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner (unless you have lots of support while learning it). I'm not on a mission to promote DW for anyone, just saying that it is a capable program for web dev. It may not be the best or to everyone's liking but once you know it, it certainly gets the job done, depending on your needs. I certainly didn't *need* it for my freelance work, except that because I already knew it, I didn't have any down time having to learn a different app.


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## JCCanuck (Apr 17, 2005)

Rps said:


> Groove, I've been reading this thread, and since I am a raw rookie, I am sort of asking the banner question again, but in a slightly different way: How does a raw rookie learn about setting up websites? I have one I'm working on and I'm using Wordpress. So do I just play around with it until I'm more confident and look elsewhere or would these night courses actually help????? Thoughts.


Funny, I can actually answer that one myself, books (before video was popular online back then). Can't remember the name of series of great books I used to learn the Adobe stuff for print including Dreamweaver which explained how to upload your website. Took trial and error also but I had no problem.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

groovetube said:


> I hate it when someone who doesn't work pro in the field acts like they know something. For instance one of my major Canadian sites has the top browser as safari. 40%.
> 
> I have no desire to quarrel with someone who doesn't do this for a living, and doesn't quite understand what all these numbers actually mean. Watch and learn. I wouldn't tell you how to diagnose and fix a mac.


I "did this" for a living for 20 years, being hired out of high school, and only stopped full time 18 months ago when I sold my award winning shop in order to have some fun and spend more time with my kid. Now I'm late thirties, and if I wanted don't have to work another day in my life. I know more about development than you have forgotten, Mr. "Flash-will-never-die." I could code your ass into next year in about a dozen different languages... bend over and pull your head out, you are being so ignorant it's embarrassing.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

JCCanuck said:


> Funny, I can actually answer that one myself, books (before video was popular online back then). Can't remember the name of series of great books I used to learn the Adobe stuff for print including Dreamweaver which explained how to upload your website. Took trial and error also but I had no problem.


I used many books to teach myself back in the day. 

For HTML it was SAMS Publishing. For DHTML, JavaScript, Flash, Indesign, and Illustrator it was Peachpit Press. For Dreamweaver, Flash and Actionscript it was the Bible series by Wiley (the publishers of all the "For Dummies" books). For CSS, CSS Mastery was a great book but that is pretty old now.

But has already been mentioned video series are great as well, Lynda being one of the best and for Adobe products Total Training videos are great as well (particularly for Photoshop).

All that being said there is nothing like on the job training which I have been extremely fortunate to have had on a number of occasions throughout the years. I have always said the best job you can have is one where you are paid to learn. I still believe that to this day.


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## JCCanuck (Apr 17, 2005)

groovetube said:


> hard to say not knowing the course. They vary really widely. Though lynda has some good ones, probably best bang for the buck?
> 
> There's a huge community online for wordpress too. sitepoint.com is a good resource as well.


Many of the Ontario colleges have these Online Courses and vary slightly in topics between colleges but I believe they all get there videos from one source and the instructors can help you via email. And I'm sure it'll be like lynda.com stuff BUT lynda.com does do it's stuff on a mac. Use to use them way back for learning Adobe stuff and really like it. Lynda's sample web stuff looks good too. So I'm not doing the college thing which is really just to get a piece of paper and your tested but doing ebooks, videos and websites which some of were mentioned on this forum. That how I learned Quark and the Adobe stuff. So why not web?


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## JCCanuck (Apr 17, 2005)

G-Mo said:


> I "did this" for a living for 20 years, being hired out of high school, and only stopped full time 18 months ago when I sold my award winning shop in order to have some fun and spend more time with my kid. Now I'm late thirties, and if I wanted don't have to work another day in my life. I know more about development than you have forgotten, Mr. "Flash-will-never-die." I could code your ass into next year in about a dozen different languages... bend over and pull your head out, you are being so ignorant it's embarrassing.


To be fair with the "Mac's no good for web" guy he did say later in my email that Flash will die out despite him teaching Flash, Dreamweaver and web coding stuff. My bad! But his email response did sound very anti-Mac for web though.


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## Izzy (Apr 14, 2008)

Rps said:


> Groove, I've been reading this thread, and since I am a raw rookie, I am sort of asking the banner question again, but in a slightly different way: How does a raw rookie learn about setting up websites? I have one I'm working on and I'm using Wordpress. So do I just play around with it until I'm more confident and look elsewhere or would these night courses actually help????? Thoughts.


I think it depends on what you want to learn. If you just want to get a site up an running, Wordpress could be a good choice. If you want to learn how everything works, I would set aside Wordpress for a while and learn HTML, CSS and Javascript first by building some static sites. After you feel you've got a foundation in those skills to you could move to a content management system like Wordpress, which adds PHP and MySQL to the mix. 

I like Wordpress and I think it's a good tool for the right job but I've seen a lot of projects where Wordpress is used because it is the platform the developer knows, not because it is the best option for the client. I think that if you know all of the underlying technologies and not just the platform, you'll be in a better position to develop the right solution for the job.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

Izzy said:


> I think it depends on what you want to learn. If you just want to get a site up an running, Wordpress could be a good choice. If you want to learn how everything works, *I would set aside Wordpress for a while and learn HTML, CSS and Javascript first by building some static sites. After you feel you've got a foundation in those skills to you could move to a content management system like Wordpress, which adds PHP and MySQL to the mix. *
> 
> I like Wordpress and I think it's a good tool for the right job but I've seen a lot of projects where Wordpress is used because it is the platform the developer knows, not because it is the best option for the client. I* think that if you know all of the underlying technologies and not just the platform, you'll be in a better position to develop the right solution for the job*.


Agreed.


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## Rps (May 2, 2009)

Izzy, that actually sounds very reasonable. I'm thinking that I will explore wordpress more deeply ( I even bought SINC's favourite RapidWeaver ) and will play with those for awhile. Since this will be my own site it may be wise to learn what I can't do ( either my skill level or the limitations of the canned packages ) and then take the subjects you mentioned. In that way I can focus on what I need for my site and have some exposure to the outcomes of those programmes. Thanks to all for you suggestions in this, I appreciate it.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Gerk said:


> :clap:


Now it's yelling it did it for 20 years. You'd think that since building websites in 1993 (who was building sites in 1993?) they'd know better than to spout that BS. But then a whole lot has really changed in 18 months, including browser stats so it may be a bit of a shock. In any case, after that last outburst of flaming BS, the ignore filter has a use!



Izzy said:


> I think it depends on what you want to learn. If you just want to get a site up an running, Wordpress could be a good choice. If you want to learn how everything works, I would set aside Wordpress for a while and learn HTML, CSS and Javascript first by building some static sites. After you feel you've got a foundation in those skills to you could move to a content management system like Wordpress, which adds PHP and MySQL to the mix.
> 
> I like Wordpress and I think it's a good tool for the right job but I've seen a lot of projects where Wordpress is used because it is the platform the developer knows, not because it is the best option for the client. I think that if you know all of the underlying technologies and not just the platform, you'll be in a better position to develop the right solution for the job.


:clap: great advice. I had a very solid base of years in CSS/PHP/mYSQL before I began developing custom wordpress themes from scratch.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

G-Mo said:


> I "did this" for a living for 20 years, being hired out of high school, and only stopped full time 18 months ago when I sold my award winning shop in order to have some fun and spend more time with my kid. Now I'm late thirties, and if I wanted don't have to work another day in my life. I know more about development than you have forgotten, Mr. "Flash-will-never-die." I could code your ass into next year in about a dozen different languages... bend over and pull your head out, you are being so ignorant it's embarrassing.


I see and that's why you're an apple certified professional. Since owning an award winning development shop for 20 years and selling it for millions was so successful!

I'm sorry but I have no interest in being attacked by the likes of you and listening to this bunch of BS. If you can add to a topic with -correct- info great. If all you're in for is a fight, go somewhere else.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

Now I understand gerk why you left here in the first place.

I'll leave the thread until peace resumes. Sorry JC, feel free to PM me with any questions if you want.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

groovetube said:


> I see and that's why you're an apple certified professional. Since owning an award winning development shop for 20 years and selling it for millions was so successful!


I really do pity you... it's now apparent you are unable to process what you read, which goes miles to explaining why you are so backwards. Makes sense now!

(Who said I made millions? Who said I did web development for 20 years? Who said I owned the shop for 20 years? ASSumptions.)

I'm also a MCSE, MCPD, PMI PMP, PMI-ACP and a CBPA... although, none of those are relevant to a Mac forum, so, I don't list them.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> I really do pity you... it's now apparent you are unable to process what you read, which goes miles to explaining why you are so backwards. Makes sense now!
> 
> *(Who said I made millions? Who said I did web development for 20 years? Who said I owned the shop for 20 years?* ASSumptions.)
> 
> I'm also a MCSE, MCPD, PMI PMP, PMI-ACP and a CBPA... although, none of those are relevant to a Mac forum, so, I don't list them.


Well G-Mo you did say this:



G-Mo said:


> *I "did this" for a living for 20 years*, being hired out of high school, and only stopped full time 18 months ago when *I sold my award winning shop* in order to have some fun and spend more time with my kid. Now I'm late thirties, and *if I wanted don't have to work another day in my life.* I know more about development than you have forgotten, Mr. "Flash-will-never-die." I could code your ass into next year in about a dozen different languages... bend over and pull your head out, you are being so ignorant it's embarrassing.


gt was talking about web development so when you said you did it for 20 years *I* also thought that is what you were saying. Additionally you said "if I wanted don't have to work another day in my life." Which to me it seemed like you had made millions from your company, as I don't know anyone who in their late 30's wouldn't have to work another day in their life unless they had millions.

Perhaps your money has come from elsewhere but you made it sound like your wealth came from the sale of your company. At least that was my take on your post.

Obviously I could be wrong but I think your post did not spell out the specifics of your situation to others as well as you might have thought it did.


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## groovetube (Jan 2, 2003)

screature said:


> Well G-Mo you did say this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's precisely what I thought too.

When someone comes in with info that one can get within 5 minutes of googling without any background info on it, and, it goes completely against everything I know (and everyone I work with...) in -currently- working in this field, I get suspicious.

I come in here to offer any info or advice based on doing this for a living currently (working right now as a matter of fact... or should be...) I don't come in here to get challenged by this kind of misinformation and to be called an idiot.

I don't need it.


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## G-Mo (Sep 26, 2007)

screature said:


> gt was talking about web development so when you said you did it for 20 years.





groovetube said:


> That's precisely what I thought too.


Actually, he said "work pro in the field". I worked "pro in the field" doing application development initially, C and C++ with some Pascal, then Delphi and Visual Basic before starting HTML work (alongside "traditional" development) in 1998 (so it's 15 years in web development if you want to be pedantic). I did about a dozen sites between 1998 and 1999 before I was hired to go to the UK. I briefly did some work for the MOD before joining one of their preferred technology suppliers in 2000 and lead the team there that developed a leading edge web communications platform using ASP, javascript, etc... The project was recognized in a MSPN case study on DCOM.

I left there, and travelled the world for a year, culminating with my marriage in the South Pacific and returned to Canada and started my shop/consultancy with a former associate in the UK. He left, the UK office remained and I eventually added another team in Miami and closed the UK in 2010. We did web work for some household names, including two North American sports leagues, an international travel company, a few banks, multinational companies and a number of private equity investment firms as well as smaller projects for businesses you would may never heard of. We did enterprise level data-driven web applications and solutions as well as consulting. I've been involved with single projects worth more than many will bill in a lifetime.

I did very well, I made a decent amount when I sold the shop, sick of 80+ hour weeks. I have also have family money from other investments, predominantly property.

I got my Apple Certifications feeding a hobby a couple of years ago. I have actually worked as a technician at an AASP, more as a hobby to keep me out of my wife's hair!, with some ideas about buying a share of the business. When my wife discovered she was pregnant again, she wanted to move home for a few years, which we did in December... 18 months is not THAT far removed from an industry I spent 20 years at the cutting edge of, especially when I still get phone calls and emails regarding it at least weekly and will likely be returning to it all again shortly, as I have been in discussions with a couple of companies here regarding senior positions.


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## screature (May 14, 2007)

G-Mo said:


> *Actually, he said "work pro in the field".* I worked "pro in the field" doing application development initially, C and C++ with some Pascal, then Delphi and Visual Basic before starting HTML work (alongside "traditional" development) in 1998 (so it's 15 years in web development if you want to be pedantic). I did about a dozen sites between 1998 and 1999 before I was hired to go to the UK. I briefly did some work for the MOD before joining one of their preferred technology suppliers in 2000 and lead the team there that developed a leading edge web communications platform using ASP, javascript, etc... The project was recognized in a MSPN case study on DCOM.
> 
> I left there, and travelled the world for a year, culminating with my marriage in the South Pacific and returned to Canada and started my shop/consultancy with a former associate in the UK. He left, the UK office remained and I eventually added another team in Miami and closed the UK in 2010. We did web work for some household names, including two North American sports leagues, an international travel company, a few banks, multinational companies and a number of private equity investment firms as well as smaller projects for businesses you would may never heard of. We did enterprise level data-driven web applications and solutions as well as consulting. I've been involved with single projects worth more than many will bill in a lifetime.
> 
> ...


Sorry G-Mo but this is what groove asked:



groovetube said:


> Are you a developer?


and it was understood, by me at least, he meant a *web* developer as that is the topic of the thread.

And you replied:



G-Mo said:


> Yes. I owned a very successful international development shop until I sold it off about a year and a half ago.


As for the rest of your post thank you very much for sharing your experience in such detail. It sounds like you have lived a very productive and fulfilling life in such a relatively short time frame...

I wish I had accomplished as much when I was 38 (or there about). Congratulations to you.

Also I am glad that your future career is looking so bright (I gotta wear shades).

Maybe going forward however we can all (myself included) just try to be a little more polite to one another... I really don't see what we have to lose.


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## Gerk (Dec 21, 2012)

groovetube said:


> Now I understand gerk why you left here in the first place.
> 
> I'll leave the thread until peace resumes. Sorry JC, feel free to PM me with any questions if you want.


Indeed, lots of egos to contend with and lots of times they dish out severely incorrect information and think that what they say is correct because they have somehow convinced themselves that it is. There's a few in particular that make that list and it seems we have another.

Sorry JC that your thread is getting so stomped in, I too will walk away from this one before I have to tell my life story too to prove that I know how to read stats of servers that I HOST LOL.


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